# JBL's MS-8 processor!



## 300Z

MS-8 comes with the pre-amp/amp, a small display, a wireless remote control, a binaural microphone and a setup CD.

MS-8 will have 8 speaker level inputs, 8 line level inputs and an iPod input. The inputs are summed to provide a full-range 2-channel signal. If 6 or fewer inputs are required, then the last 2 can be used for an additional aux input.

There are no digital inputs. Why? Because the real benefit of digital input is "no noise". The downside to providing one is that for 99 percent of users, it's more hassle than it's worth and will cause a great deal of confusion. Not too many people understand that the connector doesn't determine the signal. What I mean is, if we put a toslink input and a user hooks up a toslink output, it will only work is the signal is compatible. DVD-Audio isn't available on a digital output, DVD signals are 48k, PCM is 44.1, home-made digital audio can be anything. The signal from tuners is often only output on the RCAs. For the vast majority of users, there is no benefit and too much opportunity for disappointment. As far as noise goes, our inputs are differential, so the commoon mode noise rejection is super high. There won't be any noise.

There are 8 input channels, so the 8 speaker level inputs and 8 line level inputs are basically in parallel. You can use any combination.

Once the signals have been combined and un-EQed (for a flat 2-channel signal), the signal is processed with Logic7. That provides signal steering for a center channel (if you have one--if not, no problem) and processing for side and rear channels. L7 works on any 2-channel source and is our version is written for cars rather than live-in rooms, so it sounds MUCH better than any of the encoded formats in a car. The 2-channel downmix of any encoded DVD or DVD-A disc will play back in full surround. If good-old 2-channel is what you want, L7 is defeatable and the channels are fully configurable (there are 8 output channels and they can be pre-amp channels or powered channels--20W x 8 at 4 ohms, 30W at 2 ohms). You can have 3-way front, a center and a sub, 2-way front, rear and a sub...whatever you want to do.

The electronic crossover that's built in is fully configurable. You can assign any channel to be anything and it includes an EZ setup mode and an advanced mode. In EZ setup, you tell each channel the speaker location (front right, for example), then you tell it what speaker is connected (6" full-range). It sets the crossover point. In advanced mode, you tell the channel the location (right front) and then assign a filter type (HP, LP, BP) and then you set the filter frequency (you can assign any value between 20 at 20kHz) and the slope (1st-4th order).

After the crossover setup is completed, you move on to the EQ. You put on the microphones (they look like airline headphones but contain mics instead of speakers) and insert the CD. The display will give you some instructions to sit in the driver's seat and look at the left mirror and press "go". the unit will make a quick sweep of all 8 output channels. Then it will ask you to look forward and will make another sweep. Finally, it'll ask you to look to the right--another quick sweep. You can measure only the driver's seat or up to 4 seats. After the measurements are made (takes about 5 minutes) the unit will calculate the frequency response, level and arrival time for all 8 channels in each seat and crunch some numbers (another 30 seconds or so). It auto-tunes the car with 48 measurements per seat (up to 4 seats). It will output a tuning optimized for the driver, passenger, compromise between driver and passenger and one for the rear seats. If you use a center channel, both front seats will sound the same and the image will be great for rear seat passengers too.

After the auto-tuning is done, it will allow you to change the target curve. You can call up a 31-band EQ tool and make whatever changes you want. Unlike a regular EQ, you don't have to find an RTA and tune the car with the EQ, you just draw the curve you want to hear and press "go" and it does the work in implementing your curve. Then you can switch back and forth between your curve and the automatic one and continue making changes until you're satisfied. The curve you draw will always be adjusted in level so that the maximum number of bits are available to describe the signal (optimized for dynamic range). Once you save the curve, you can access any of the settings optimized for any seat using the remote control and the display.

You can turn Logic7 on and off, adjust the level of the center channel, use a balance control, fader, 3 or 11-band graphic EQ or adjust the level of the bass. THe bass control isn't a gain control for the subwoofer output, it's a filter that works with the crossover and applies the right amount of bass to ALL channels so the illusion of bass up front isn't destroyed when you turn up the bass.

Answers to some likely questions:

1. You don't have to use the unit's volume control. You can use the one in the head-unit if you want to.
2. Maximum input voltage on the RCAs is 2V and 15V on the speaker level inputs. The signal is converted directly into digital after the preamp buffer, so a high signal level is far less important in this device than in conventional ones. The input is fully differential, so there won't be noise. I suggest speaker level connections because they are COMPLETELY isolated from ground.
3. The automatic EQ isn't exactly parametric or graphic. It's a very powerful algorithm that works on the impulse response to adjust both time and frequency response. It's amazing and does in about 30 seconds what I can do with an 80 band parametric EQ, crossover, time alignment and a serious analyzer in about 3 days.
4. The display doesn't have to be mounted. If you don't want iPod control or the ability to adjust after setup, you can unplug the display and use MS-8 as a "black box".
5. The unit is small--about 8.5" x 11" x 2.5"
6. Price will be about $800...TBD
7. The software is updatable via USB and a PC.

It does what all other OEM integration tools do and what every other DSP (EQ, Crossover, Time alignment, 7.1) processors do, but it sounds better, is easier to use, is less expensive and is far more advanced in terms of DSP power. Best of all, it's a tool you can be successful with, rather than a whiz-bang collection of filters and adjustment possibilities that require a PhD in acousitcs to use.


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## fej

Wow that looks like a pretty impressive unit, someone buy one and review it


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## bobditts

maximum input voltage is 2V??? that is dang low! Guess all eclipse and most alpine users wont be getting one. are they trying to attract customers or drive them away? that right there will put a large group of people on the "cant buy it" list.


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## c0mpl3x

Bah, Im just waiting for a decent 4-way (lowpass - Bandpass - Bandpass - Highpass) crossover with a 31 band stereo EQ at a realistic price with no extra frills such as aux inputs, ipod, blah blah blah.


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## bdubs767

c0mpl3x said:


> Bah, Im just waiting for a decent 4-way (lowpass - Bandpass - Bandpass - Highpass) crossover with a 31 band stereo EQ at a realistic price with no extra frills such as aux inputs, ipod, blah blah blah.


whats wrong with the PXA?


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## c0mpl3x

bdubs767 said:


> whats wrong with the PXA?


It requires you to controle it with the that god aweful Alpine deck/controler or a damn DVD player which I don't care for in a car and costs near $1000 or more for everything.


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## skylar112

bobditts said:


> maximum input voltage is 2V??? that is dang low! Guess all eclipse and most alpine users wont be getting one. are they trying to attract customers or drive them away? that right there will put a large group of people on the "cant buy it" list.


I think processor caters more to the audio enthusiasts today that have newer cars where the radio is much harder to replace with something aftermarket. It a great interface with your stock radio into an elaborate system with aftermarket amps.


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## jay

i for one am very excited to check out the product  there's been plenty of talk about it since its initial debut at ces2006...hopefully it's as good as andy makes it out to be .


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## kappa546

that sounds awesome. i can go back old school an rock my ECD 510


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## FoxPro5

That thing does speak to the lazy ass tuner in me.  

And WTF is with the obsession over preamp output!! I seriously don't get it. 

But I have to agree with c0mpl3x. Now that the iPod has infected the material word, the manufacturers have a raging case of feature-itis. :barf:


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## bobditts

B-Squad said:


> And WTF is with the obsession over preamp output!! I seriously don't get it.


No one said anything about preamp output. I mentioned the JBL units restriction to a 2V *INPUT*.


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## skylar112

bobditts said:


> No one said anything about preamp output. I mentioned the JBL units restriction to a 2V *INPUT*.


I doubt that the output from most stock headunits ever exceed 2volts.


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## bobditts

^ Im raising the BS flag.


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## FoxPro5

bobditts said:


> ^ Im raising the BS flag.


He's absolutely 100% right! Thus my comment. Don't believe us, measure it yourself.


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## kappa546

skylar112 said:


> I doubt that the output from most stock headunits ever exceed 2volts *with music*.


edited for him


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## t3sn4f2

Does anyone know if this unit will do something about OEM head units or after market ones that have volume dependent equalization or some other sound processing. Other than tell you to leave the main volume in one setting and use theres as the master volume.


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## 300Z

You guys are funny...


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## Tommythecat

The input voltage ******** is trivial at best.


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## bobditts

if i knew how to measure I might just do that. All I know is that my eclipse has damaged a few products because of its high output voltage. I wouldnt want to spend the $800 or whatever the price is on this thing just for my eclipse to blow it up.


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## FoxPro5

bobditts said:


> if i knew how to measure I might just do that. All I know is that my eclipse has damaged a few products because of its high output voltage. I wouldnt want to spend the $800 or whatever the price is on this thing just for my eclipse to blow it up.


Multimeter Bob, multimeter. 

Can you please show proof of what that the high voltage signal damaged? Not trying to be confrontational at all. I hear this all the time, however I've never seen proof. 

If you actally knew how much votage your Eclipse 8V deck was pumping out...even at fill tilt (80/80) on the most dynamic disk you own, you'd probably be A LITTLE surprised. Marketing shannagins for the loss! 

Also, to be clear, my original comment was not directed at you personally. I personally believe that preout voltage might just be the most poorly understood facets in car audio. Not surprisingly, manufaturers take advantage of this BIG TIME!!


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## bobditts

I didnt take it personally at all. And no I cant show proof of the damage my deck caused because I have already warrantied everything. Plus it happened like 3 years ago. here was the situation... eclipse 8442, jbl BP300.1, an alpine type S 12DVC, and a sealed box built to spec. everything was set properly including gains. basically I went through 3 different subs with the exact same setup. nothing was wrong at all. Come to find out that the JBL BP amps cant handle the 8V too well and surged too much power to the sub. sub ended up blowing. I never even had a chance to really pus the sub hard. 

Ill see if I can hit my deck up with a DMM tonight, if not it will be tomorrow. I will post pics of my results in a new thread.


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## squeak9798

bobditts said:


> if i knew how to measure I might just do that. All I know is that my eclipse has damaged a few products because of its high output voltage. I wouldnt want to spend the $800 or whatever the price is on this thing just for my eclipse to blow it up.



I used my Eclipse 8053 with an 10yr old amplifier that had a maximum input voltage of _1.5V_ with absolutely no problems.


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## t3sn4f2

Npdang, any comments this ability of this units auto-tuning to do what it promises.


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## 300Z

For anyone interested, here is the original thread.

Leo


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## npdang

I don't trust any software to auto-tune... as in set it and forget it. I just don't think there's anything sophisticated enough out there yet that could do a good job.

However, the nice thing it seems with the JBL unit is that rather than adjusting bands directly, you only need to change the target response and the system will do the rest... as well as the spatial averaging and other fancy stuff the dsp will calculate. Whether or not it actually works I think we will have to wait and see... but given the resources that JBL has behind them I don't see why it wouldn't. I was a tiny bit dissapointed that they didin't incorporate room correction into the unit. If anything needed it, it's definitely a car.


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## jay

npdang said:


> I don't trust any software to auto-tune... as in set it and forget it. I just don't think there's anything sophisticated enough out there yet that could do a good job.
> 
> However, the nice thing it seems with the JBL unit is that rather than adjusting bands directly, you only need to change the target response and the system will do the rest... as well as the spatial averaging and other fancy stuff the dsp will calculate. Whether or not it actually works I think we will have to wait and see... but given the resources that JBL has behind them I don't see why it wouldn't. I was a tiny bit dissapointed that they didin't incorporate room correction into the unit. If anything needed it, it's definitely a car.


agreed...the processor looks very promising. room correction would have been great, although i don't know how close any manufacturer is to incorporating a solid version of it into a car audio processor. thus far, looks like alpine is first up with the audyssey multeq technology. whether it is an effective solution or not remains to be seen.


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## OldOneEye

Hey, I had a setup that would correct like 10 years ago. But it cost like 10 times as much and I never really was able to get the one I got to work.

Considering how many have poorly tuned systems, I would guess that this thing will do more good than harm.

Juan


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## dual700

We tested many HUs at Tru's facility back then.
Alpine's 4V output? Eclipse's 8V output? BS. Especially with music like B-Squad said.
If Eclipse puts out 8V, then it will shut down all Arc CXL/XXK amps since they are limited to 2.5V or 4V outputs. (can't remember, but I think it's 2.5V)
Even at the shop, I measured my 9813, 7990 (f1), etc with music, at full tilt, they barely hit .5 V. Believe it or not.


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## FoxPro5

dual700 said:


> We tested many HUs at Tru's facility back then.
> Alpine's 4V output? Eclipse's 8V output? BS. Especially with music like B-Squad said.
> If Eclipse puts out 8V, then it will shut down all Arc CXL/XXK amps since they are limited to 2.5V or 4V outputs. (can't remember, but I think it's 2.5V)
> Even at the shop, I measured my 9813, 7990 (f1), etc with music, at full tilt, they barely hit .5 V. Believe it or not.


True, true. Can't remember how many times I've had to bring up the XXK line as an example. They are all 2.5v max...except for the mono which is like 2.85v.

With my 8053 and BLA combo, I got a pretty consistant 2v at 80/80 with music. With 0dB tones, I did see the full 10v at 80/80. What I noticed was that the output really didn't start cranking until about the 75/80 range. To say the output is too strong and will damage electrical equipment is friggen silly.  

I was just playing with my P9 the other day. 1k tone (-3dB) at about 5 clicks from full volume. Audison SRx4 bridged with gain all the way down (input sensitivity is 5.5v). Care to guess the AC voltage output on the speaker leads???















9v


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## 300Z

I'm sorry to hear that...


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## Preacher

I could be totally off base, but I've noticed different HU's giving cleaner or dirtier signals based on Quoted Preamp volt. I do believe that this is basic marketing smoke, but there are differences. Take a gander at the preamp output impedance that's what really makes the difference in sound. Compare pioneer's 100 ohm to Eclipse's 55 ohm.


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## Tirefryr

t3sn4f2 said:


> Does anyone know if this unit will do something about OEM head units or after market ones that have volume dependent equalization or some other sound processing. Other than tell you to leave the main volume in one setting and use theres as the master volume.


It processes the input signal and basically will restore it to a flat signal. I believe the CleanSweep and 3Sixty.2 do the same as well. Therefore, that bass attentuation circuit that lowers the bass at higher volume levels in many factory heads, or any other equalization for that matter, is effectively negated.


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## FoxPro5

Preacher said:


> I could be totally off base, but I've noticed different HU's giving cleaner or dirtier signals based on Quoted Preamp volt. I do believe that this is basic marketing smoke, but there are differences. Take a gander at the preamp output impedance that's what really makes the difference in sound. Compare pioneer's 100 ohm to Eclipse's 55 ohm.


Totally agree. Eclipse figured it out way back with the 8061. High voltage + low output impedance + balanced output. Funny how Alpine went the other direction. Don't their units have like a 10,000 ohm output impedance or something crazy like that??


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## t3sn4f2

Tirefryr said:


> It processes the input signal and basically will restore it to a flat signal. I believe the CleanSweep and 3Sixty.2 do the same as well. Therefore, that bass attentuation circuit that lowers the bass at higher volume levels in many factory heads, or any other equalization for that matter, is effectively negated.


My original question was for someone that wants to use the factory volume instead of the MS-8 master volume. When you set these devices up they tell you to pick a volume on the OEM head unit and leave it around that point before and after you do the optimization. So that it uses that point as its reference, but then when you raise the volume on the OEM during normal use , it will alter the optimized response since the OEM response will be altered as well thanks to the volume dependent EQ curve.


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## 300Z

Andy answered that question over on the other thread. In short, Yes you can use the volume on the stock radio. 

This unit isn't just like the JL Cleansweep or the RF 3Sixty.2.


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## Tirefryr

IF it is processing the factory filtering out at one volume, it will do it at all volumes. IT was stated it can be controlled from either volume source and givien it's processing capabilities, I don't see this being a problem. If it were, it would have been stated that it MUST be controlled by the unit's programming module itself.


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## t3sn4f2

Tirefryr said:


> IF it is processing the factory filtering out at one volume, it will do it at all volumes. IT was stated it can be controlled from either volume source and givien it's processing capabilities, I don't see this being a problem. If it were, it would have been stated that it MUST be controlled by the unit's programming module itself.



http://mobile.jlaudio.com/pdfs/11196.pdf 

In page 8 of the JL Audio Clean Sweep manual, in the section of "Using the OEM volume control instead of the clean sweep", it states you *can* use it like that too but there are differances in the response. I don't see how any of these processors can actively adjust according to the gain of the OEM headunit since music is dynamic and would in itself fool the processor into thinking you were raising the volume (thus changing its response) when all that might be happening was a normal peak in the music. That is why they tell you "if you are worried about these comprimises" to use the units master volume. 

My question still stands if anyone that knows if they over came this somehow other than telling you to deal with it.


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## t3sn4f2

300Z said:


> Andy answered that question over on the other thread. In short, Yes you can use the volume on the stock radio.
> 
> This unit isn't just like the JL Cleansweep or the RF 3Sixty.2.


300Z do you have a link to that thread, I can't find it. Thanks


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## jay

http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=63407


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## t3sn4f2

Can someone ask Andy in the other forum if the ms-8s master volume will be the only way to control the main output volume when I am using the AUX input?
Thanks


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## 300Z

t3sn4f2 said:


> 300Z do you have a link to that thread, I can't find it. Thanks





300Z said:


> For anyone interested, here is the original thread.
> 
> Leo


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## t3sn4f2

Any updates on when it will be available......


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## ATB

I am very interested as well. Need to decide if I hold out for this proc or just go with a 3sixty for the time being.


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## t3sn4f2

Andy from Harman giving more details on the MS-8 and comparing it with the PXE-H650.

From Audiogroupforum.com

"There are lots of differences. First, MS-8 is more expensive.

Some technical differences are:
1. MS-8 includes power for speakers.
2. MS-8 includes a center channel output and a matrix surround processor (Logic7), which is more about fixing the image for the passengers than about reproducing an audio equivalent to a roller-coaster ride. The Apine doesn't include a center output and doesn't include that image processing.
3. The MS-8's crossover is fully configurable. It'll support any system of 8 channels or fewer, including 7.1, 5.1, 3.1, or the standard car-audio 2-channel bi-amped or tri-amped front stage and a sub. anything is possible, since all the channels can be anything, but crossover setup is manual in MS-8. It's automatic in the Alpine, but it's less configurable. The outputs are fixed.
4. MS-8 includes an auxiliary input and a remote control and display which allows you to make some adjustments after setup and includs a volume control for those pesky OE systems that include dynamic "bass elimination" (many GM).
5. MS-8's subwoofer level control is a shelf that's applied to all the channels through the crossover and the bass management algorithm. It'll preserve the impact in the front of the car AND add bass.
6. The automatic equalizers are completely different. The Alpine uses a 512-tap filter, which also equalizes phase and sets time alignment. It also includes some spatial averaging for multiple microphone placements (6). When you equalize with the Alipine, the first microphone placement sets the time alignment and the rest of the placements are used to smooth the frequency response over most of the car's interior. Multitap filters that operate in real time are a relatively new possibility. In years past, multitap filters in real time were only a hope, since there weren't many microprocessors that could process all that information quickly enough. The benefits of usiing a multitap filter are that they can be very precise and they equalize phase as well as magnitude since they operate on the impulse response measurement. For one tiny point in space, they can also eliminate the sound of plenty of reflections, but their ability to do that accurately diminishes in larger listening areas, since the effects of reflections at high frequencies can be very different even a few inches away from the original microphone position. The other important thing to note about multitap filters is that the 512 "bands" are distributed in a linear fashion rather than logarithmically. That means the resolution is fixed across the audio band. 512 taps gives you roughly 40 Hz resolution. That means you get 2 adjustment bands between 20 and 100Hz and 25 bands between 10k and 20k. Multitap filters, by default place more adjustment possibilities in the high frequencies than in the low frequencies because of the linear distribution of those "bands". That's the only drawback. The Alipine allows you to select from several target curves for adjustment after the automatic setup.

One more note about multitap: They are the shiznit for headphone EQ, because the "listening space" is fixed. With multitap EQ, you can add the reflective properties of a completely different space and transform the listening area to a completely believable representation of a much larger space. With speakers, that isn't possible yet because both of your ears hear both speakers and moving your head helps you determine the location of sounds (just like when your dog cocks his head when he hears a sound he doesn't recognize--we do the same thing, it just doesn't look so ridiculous).

MS-8's EQ is different. We also use a spatial average, but we use a binaural measurement system and 3 mic positions PER LISTENING POSITION. That gives us 6 measurements per seat for each of the 8 channels plus a time alignment adjustment for each seat. Once the setup is done, you can choose an optimization for any seating position and switch between them. For frequency response EQ, we make standard frequency response measurements, eliminate the phase measurement, average the measurements), calculate the phase response of the average, turn the measurement into an impulse response measurement, apply 8 biquads (filters) to the impulse response according to the target curve and the crossover settings using a very complicated and sneaky algorithm that I can't divulge because we're applying for a patent. The result is a VERY powerful EQ that can be implemented on a relatively inexpensive DSP for each channel and leave plenty of space to use the same algorithm on the eletrical signal of the MS-8's input for flattening of the input signal. The distribution of the bands is logarithmic and makes a completely adjustable target curve easy to implement and accurate. Each speaker location is equalized separately and, because of the spatial average, the acoustic sum of the channels matches the target curve. Once setup is complete, you can fine tune the car using a 31-band drawing tool. You draw the curve you want to hear and the MS-8 implements it and allows you to audition your changes vs. no EQ and vs. the automatic implementation of the predefined target.

Both pieces of equipment are technological marvels and they both include input channel summing and signal conditioning, crossover and EQ). MS-8 includes more stuff (center channel, Logic7, amplifiers, a display and remote, equalization memory and multiple seat optimization, center channel output and automatic input configuration--MS-8 will figure out what you've connected to the input regardless of polarity), but it should. It's more expensive.

Which one sounds better? You'll have to be the judge.

One last note: Both of these products are super-important and may help to revive the industry and get new customers interested in making their cars sound great while preserving their factory user interfaces. They have both been long development processes with plenty of invention and innovation, software development hiccups and decisions about which features to implement. Both products will require some new thinking on the parts of installers and salespeople about how one implements great audio. Simple 2-channel audio isn't dead, but these kinds of advancements make better listening experiences possible using a new set of rules.

Kudos to Jason ad his team for beating us to market. The other difference is that MS-8 isn't quite finished yet-but it will be.
__________________
Andy Wehmeyer
Product Marketing Manager
Harman Consumer Group
Mobile Systems Division"


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## t3sn4f2

Me - "Hi Andy. If I dont have a center channel, can I use Logic7 mode with a no center setting and does it then do something special to the prcoessing so that its like a phantom center setup, or do I have to go with stereo mode in that case and loose the other benefits of Logic7. Also is the auto EQ only for Logic7 mode or is it availiable for stereo mode too?"

Andy - "T3,
If you don't identify a channel as a center, Logic7 won't be completely engaged. There will be some ambience processing for the rear and the time alignment will be set for a single listening position. After setup, you can choose between optimizations for each of the 4 seats, but they won't all image simultaneously like they will if you use a center.

EQ is completely separate from L7. It works no matter the setup."


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## npdang

No room correction in the time domain? How is the spatial average done? Knowing JBL it's not a simple average hehe.


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## Hi There

Why do I always gotta choose between multi-channel analog input and available digital input?


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## thatvan

My Alto Processor has a 2V input limit. I agree with others when they say that most HU’s rated output is BS. Out of all the HU’s I’ve used (Nak, Becker, DRZ9255, Alpine, RFX8250) only one has given me problems, my Denford. 

Most likely the JBL piece’s input goes straight into the A/D (TI I bet) with no analog stage at all (like the Alto). All input boost and cut is handled in the digital realm. 

What one can do, if too high of an input voltage really is a problem, is use a limiting resistor. I had to do this for my Denford/Alto setup and it worked perfectly.


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## ClintMJ23

B-Squad said:


> But I have to agree with c0mpl3x. Now that the iPod has infected the material word, the manufacturers have a raging case of feature-itis. :barf:


x2! Gotta love all these ipods, mp3 players, etc. where lower quality media is becoming the norm...... 

I wonder what the the whole audiophile market will be like in 5, 10, 15 years..... I guess we'll see.....


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## t3sn4f2

thatvan said:


> My Alto Processor has a 2V input limit. I agree with others when they say that most HU’s rated output is BS. Out of all the HU’s I’ve used (Nak, Becker, DRZ9255, Alpine, RFX8250) only one has given me problems, my Denford.
> 
> Most likely the JBL piece’s input goes straight into the A/D (TI I bet) with no analog stage at all (like the Alto). All input boost and cut is handled in the digital realm.
> 
> *What one can do, if too high of an input voltage really is a problem, is use a limiting resistor. I had to do this for my Denford/Alto setup and it worked perfectly.*


That should not be a concern with the MS-8.....

"There are 8 input channels, so the 8 speaker level inputs and 8 line level inputs are basically in parallel. You can use any combination."


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## t3sn4f2

t3sn4f2 said:


> That should not be a concern with the MS-8.....
> 
> "There are 8 input channels, so the 8 speaker level inputs and 8 line level inputs are basically in parallel. You can use any combination."


Addition - "Maximum input voltage on the RCAs is 2V and 15V on the speaker level inputs. The signal is converted directly into digital after the preamp buffer, so a high signal level is far less important in this device than in conventional ones."


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## slow2.2sonoma

If you can drop that price I'll definately buy one and I guarantee you will sell tons of them


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## ATB

Any idea when this is supposed to be released? I am about ready to crush my 3sixty into little tiny pieces.


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## t3sn4f2

ATB said:


> Any idea when this is supposed to be released? I am about ready to crush my 3sixty into little tiny pieces.


5-3-07 - "Yes, it'll be available in the fall. Difficulty integrating the microcontroller, the UI software and the audio software is to blame.
__________________
Andy Wehmeyer
Product Marketing Manager
Harman Consumer Group
Mobile Systems Division "


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## nepl29

ATB said:


> Any idea when this is supposed to be released? I am about ready to crush my 3sixty into little tiny pieces.


what don't you like about the 3sixty? I been putting my system on hold for awhile waiting for this or the alpine h650 to come out.might buy a 3sixty. just looking for a device to give me a flat, unequalize signal from the stock bmw radio to the alpine hub that I'm using..


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## ATB

nepl29 said:


> what don't you like about the 3sixty? I been putting my system on hold for awhile waiting for this or the alpine h650 to come out.might buy a 3sixty. just looking for a device to give me a flat, unequalize signal from the stock bmw radio to the alpine hub that I'm using..


Noise, cheap volume control, lack of volume adjustment, volume that fluctuates on its own, and did I mention noise? I'm not ready to write the thing off quite yet, but if I can't get rid of the hiss or get the volume control working properly its going away.


----------



## nepl29

ATB said:


> Noise, cheap volume control, lack of volume adjustment, volume that fluctuates on its own, and did I mention noise? I'm not ready to write the thing off quite yet, but if I can't get rid of the hiss or get the volume control working properly its going away.


thanks for the feeback. back to square one.


----------



## BodegaBay

t3sn4f2 said:


> "Yes, it'll be available in the fall. Difficulty integrating the microcontroller, the UI software and the audio software is to blame.
> __________________
> Andy Wehmeyer
> Product Marketing Manager
> Harman Consumer Group
> Mobile Systems Division "


Looks like Gary Biggs is already using a prototype MS-8 in the JBL BMW 325 demo vehicle.

Alpine may beat them to the market by 3 months but they are ~1.5 years late. The H650 was shown at CES2006 but obviously required much more fine tuning before market release.


----------



## BodegaBay

t3sn4f2 said:


> Andy from Harman giving more details on the MS-8 and comparing it with the PXE-H650...
> 
> ...One last note: Both of these products are super-important and may help to revive the industry and get new customers interested in making their cars sound great while preserving their factory user interfaces. They have both been long development processes with plenty of invention and innovation, software development hiccups and decisions about which features to implement. Both products will require some new thinking on the parts of installers and salespeople about how one implements great audio. Simple 2-channel audio isn't dead, but these kinds of advancements make better listening experiences possible using a new set of rules.


Couldn't agree more. The CleanSweep kicked it off but it was still limited in processing. These two models from Alpine and JBL, IMHO, will revolutionize what we think of processing for the industry.


----------



## fredridge

any one know when this will actually be available and the actual price?


----------



## Genxx

I still have not seen anything on a release date but I have seen talk of the price to be around $800.00.


----------



## backwoods

about room correction, they still have problems to get that to work consistenly in homes, let alone in cars. I think that will be a long way off.

I would like a dsp in car that has width control though.  fun toy on the behringer units and works nice in a car.

MS8 sounds great for the cars that you want to set up, and leave as is. In other words, the wifey's vehicle, but I want more then just an 11 band GEQ to control.


----------



## Whiterabbit

once your sound is set up and dialed in, why would you want to control it any longer?


----------



## npdang

Whiterabbit said:


> once your sound is set up and dialed in, why would you want to control it any longer?


If you've ever used these type of dsp's, you wouldn't ask that question 

It's very hit or miss, and no one's really come up with the perfect solution yet. It helps to be able to alter the target response by ear.


----------



## DonutHands

not all recordings are created equal, neither are people sources.


----------



## t3sn4f2

http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=65668&page=35










"I think I promised to post a photo of this thing a few months ago. We now have final hardware. Getting closer...
__________________
Andy Wehmeyer
Product Marketing Manager
Harman Consumer Group
Mobile Systems Division "


----------



## tr0y_audi0

This is the Part Gary Biggs used in the BMW right?

I think it would be great for a car that you cant add a deck to..
Im still waiting..
All my Austin & volvo customers will have a smile..


----------



## t3sn4f2

tr0y_audi0 said:


> This is the Part Gary Biggs used in the BMW right?
> 
> I think it would be great for a car that you cant add a deck to..
> Im still waiting..
> All my Austin & volvo customers will have a smile..


Yeah, the one where they added it to all stock speakers except subs. I'd love it for any source really.


----------



## Ge0

I plan on jumping on one of these about a year after its release to the public this summer. Price will drop by then and bugs will be worked out....

Ge0


----------



## monkeyboy

Supposed to be able to update the firmware when new releases come out. The bugs should be updated out. 

I am jumping on one of these as soon as I get a release date. My Avic N2 has never impressed me with it's sound, or eq, but in my tow vehicle I needed nav and didn't want a large screen screwed into the dash.


----------



## Ge0

Whiterabbit said:


> once your sound is set up and dialed in, why would you want to control it any longer?


Agreed. 

I believe the purpose of the MS8 is for the MACHINE to do a better job tuning than the average Joe. Which like it or not, is damn near all of us here. If someone wants to tune beyond that, the MS8 contains more than enough tools to do so. Remember, you'll be starting off with a pretty damn good response...

Ge0


----------



## DonovanM

Yep. One of these is MINE within a few months of it's release


----------



## Weightless

Andy, has the price been released yet?


----------



## Gmack

One of you guys at CES go ask JBL when this thing will be ready!

Gary


----------



## Abaddon

Gmack said:


> One of you guys at CES go ask JBL when this thing will be ready!
> 
> Gary


and then steal whatever prototype they have laying around!


----------



## Sex Cells

I'm interested....


----------



## Slick

I heard one of these prototypes and it did sound good..first processor for a car I've ever heard that actually uses a center channel and surrounds to make good old "stereo" sound great! It really did sound good...and with factory door speaker locations...this thing is going to make it easy for people with simple systems have great sound....put it this way...after I heard it, I made sure to get setup with JBL for the shop


----------



## Babs

Production ready product pic...









According to Andy at Harmann, they've got the hardware finalized.. "getting closer". So this thing is making progress though slowly.

I can't emphasize highly enough that I *FREAKIN' WANT ONE*.

The thing that's cool about these OEM processors is it doesn't matter what car, you can take it with you after you unload the old car for a new one.

I have sneaky suspician this thing is going to spank the H650 and 3sixty.2 and cleansweep in sales.. reason being, it's too easy.. One box solution.. I'd even run it by itself on internal amps for a while to see how it does... 

Which brings a question of what nice DIY style mids and tweets (raw drivers) would be a good match for a standalone MS-8 internal amp??? Something relatively efficient and possibly in 4ohm or close to it?? I'm thinking Seas neo tweets, but what mids?


----------



## azngotskills

Babs said:


> Which brings a question of what nice DIY style mids and tweets (raw drivers) would be a good match for a standalone MS-8 internal amp??? Something relatively efficient and possibly in 4ohm or close to it?? I'm thinking Seas neo tweets, but what mids?


It doesnt matter because it will EQ and set it up for you anyways right   I would like to have one as well...but im sure pricing will be quite expensive at the release


----------



## Babs

azngotskills said:


> It doesnt matter because it will EQ and set it up for you anyways right   I would like to have one as well...but im sure pricing will be quite expensive at the release


Well, what I meant was for a cool little 1-box system using just the internal amps of the MS-8 for the front-stage, the 20watt internal amps aren't exactly a powerhouse... So matching up to some mids that were relatively easy to drive.. Maybe mach 5's or something like that that can be bought raw to match active with Neo tweets.. Also maybe dayton 4ohm's.

Yeah.. Someone at CES go bug Andy and get a date when it's hitting the shelves!


----------



## t3sn4f2

I sure wish they would have made it with 9 channels of output. Such an advance processor and you can't do an active Logic7 setup with 2way LCR, rears, and sub.


----------



## DonutHands

lets get 12 channels of output

3 way front
2 way rear
stereo sub


----------



## HHawk

When will the JBL MS-8 be released?

Cause I see a lot of posting of forums about the soundprocessor, but still no release?

Also how will it compare to a Rockford Fosgate 3SIXTY.2?


----------



## t3sn4f2

HHawk said:


> When will the JBL MS-8 be released?
> 
> Cause I see a lot of posting of forums about the soundprocessor, but still no release?
> 
> Also how will it compare to a Rockford Fosgate 3SIXTY.2?


Maybe for the summer. It will be the best and only stereo processor that uses a center and rears for the stereo reproduction. Dunno how it will compare with Imprint on none center channel and rears L/R applications.


----------



## GlasSman

c0mpl3x said:


> It requires you to controle it with the that god aweful Alpine deck/controler or a damn DVD player which I don't care for in a car and costs near $1000 or more for everything.


I have no problems with the controller. Don't understand why some people don't like it. It could be a little faster. 

But for it does you can't beat it. 

Even the Zapco DSP-9 is only a 3 way crossover.


----------



## Babs

Actually.. I kinda like the looks of that controller.. 

The trick is, feeding the H701 an optical signal without an Alpine DVD head unit such as the 205... I still don't know if it can be done or not.. I'm fairly sure the AiNet signal to the H701 from any other alpine head unit is actually an analog signal.. and from what I've researched, the optical is THE way to go which makes perfect sense to feed digital direct to the 701's dac's. 

Not sure what other head units have optical outs, I'm sure just some DVD units from other brands, and if they do, even with the 701 controller, can the 701 accept it?


----------



## RedGTiVR6

Babs said:


> The trick is, feeding the H701 an optical signal without an Alpine DVD head unit such as the 205... I still don't know if it can be done or not..


I've been running the H701 and RUX-C701 for about 3 years without a headunit at all. I'm running a custom carPC with Toslink out that goes straight into the H701.

The Alpine 701 Works well (for what it is). Sure it has some downfalls, but it's one of the few options out there. I'd love to find a processor designed for car use with a digital coax input and at least all the features of the Alpine 701. Maybe the MS-8 will prove to be the next best thing once it finally comes out. We will wait (and wait, and wait) and see.


----------



## durwood

RedGTiVR6 said:


> I've been running the H701 and RUX-C701 for about 3 years without a headunit at all. I'm running a custom carPC with Toslink out that goes straight into the H701.
> 
> The Alpine 701 Works well (for what it is). Sure it has some downfalls, but it's one of the few options out there. I'd love to find a processor designed for car use with a digital coax input and at least all the features of the Alpine 701. Maybe the MS-8 will prove to be the next best thing once it finally comes out. We will wait (and wait, and wait) and see.



You already have the next generation.  You just need to step up and put it to use.


----------



## thehatedguy

Jan, there is no digital input on the MS-8.


----------



## Abmolech

Agreed, car computer would eat the MS8 alive.


----------



## OldOneEye

Abmolech said:


> Agreed, car computer would eat the MS8 alive.


You sure about that? What kind of car computer we talking about? Heck, the MS8 hasn't been released yet. But not many people are using the carputer to do auto correction.

Juan


----------



## Babs

We're talking about a big-dollar carpc with some kind of serious crazy software, a smokin' multi-RCA sound-card or output into an H701 compared to a sub-$1000 OEM unit with analog inputs, auto-summing, de-eq'ing, auto-room-calibration, etc.... It's apples and oranges.. Not even an interesting comparison I think.

I'm waiting to hear a head to head between the biggie three OEM's:
PXE-H650 vs. 3Sixty.2 vs. MS-8 (either internal or externally amp'd)

Even though I read somewhere a rumor that RF is working on a double-super-secret new OEM unit that's all that, a bucket of chicken, and a 1/2 gallon of sweet tea.  

... eh... I just wanna see the MS-8 hit the shelves.. or at least hit the website??? Is it going to? Then I could stare at it and drool and cuss about my wife shutting down the biz and going back to school.


----------



## Abmolech

Absolutely sure.

Lets check the "list"

Available? 
Decompresser?
Compressor/limiter? 
Digital input?
Digital output?
Room correction?
Loudness compensation?
Reverberation correction?
Choice of replay modes, Monophonic, stereophonic, surround, Logic7, ambiophonics, quadraphonics, ambisonics, VBAP?
Can correct recordings with VNC or non VNC?
Full active crossovers, using FIR or IIR?
How many independent channels?, IE mine has 48 routable and fully re-clocked.
Time alignment down to nano seconds?
How many EQ Bessel or your choice of FIR filters do you want per channel?
Terabytes storage?
Plays just about any type of audio recording medium?
Full RTA ability?
Can integrate with standard car controls?
Almost unlimited upgrade path?

Main point
Its available. 

MS-8 has missed the boat, it has already sailed.


----------



## durwood

Babs said:


> We're talking about a big-dollar carpc with some kind of serious crazy software, a smokin' multi-RCA sound-card or output into an H701 compared to a sub-$1000 OEM unit with analog inputs, auto-summing, de-eq'ing, auto-room-calibration, etc.... It's apples and oranges.. Not even an interesting comparison I think.





Abmolech said:


> Absolutely sure.
> 
> Main point
> Its available.
> 
> MS-8 has missed the boat, it has already sailed.


Agreed. BTW, my carpc cost me <$1000 with software, hardware and screen.  It is the source unit AND processor. Nothing can even come close at this cost and as Abmolech said it is not bound by some things pointed out which pretty much makes it untouchable.


----------



## OldOneEye

Abmolech said:


> Absolutely sure.
> 
> Lets check the "list"
> 
> Available?
> Decompresser?
> Compressor/limiter?
> Digital input?
> Digital output?
> Room correction?
> Loudness compensation?
> Reverberation correction?
> Choice of replay modes, Monophonic, stereophonic, surround, Logic7, ambiophonics, quadraphonics, ambisonics, VBAP?
> Can correct recordings with VNC or non VNC?
> Full active crossovers, using FIR or IIR?
> How many independent channels?, IE mine has 48 routable and fully re-clocked.
> Time alignment down to nano seconds?
> How many EQ Bessel or your choice of FIR filters do you want per channel?
> Terabytes storage?
> Plays just about any type of audio recording medium?
> Full RTA ability?
> Can integrate with standard car controls?
> Almost unlimited upgrade path?
> 
> Main point
> Its available.
> 
> MS-8 has missed the boat, it has already sailed.


Wow, don't forget, the MS-8 can't play minesweeper either.

Where can you get that for about $900 (with prelim pricing that is out there for the MS-8)? 

So sure, you can do better than a MS-8 (based on the specs out there), but a car PC that does all that would cost a fortune.

Juan


----------



## durwood

OldOneEye said:


> Wow, don't forget, the MS-8 can't play minesweeper either.


Who needs minesweeper? 



> Where can you get that for about $900 (with prelim pricing that is out there for the MS-8)?


Tigerdirect, Newegg, mp3car store and forums.



> So sure, you can do better than a MS-8 (based on the specs out there), but a car PC that does all that would cost a fortune.


That's a misconception, that's an excuse.


----------



## Babs

hehehehe.. I was hoping kinda that you guys would jump all over that post and shoot me down.. bang.. rrrrrrrr... splash!

Good stuff.. I just wish I knew how to do a carPC, then I'd be all over it.. I couldn't care less if it could do anything more than store tunes in lossless and full SQ tuning and processing.. At least I do have a double-din.. but have had sticker shock out the yin-yang looking at carPC companies.

What kind of hardware does a guy need for a simple 2-way front + rear + sub?

... Eh.. sorry I know that's totally off topic.


----------



## Abmolech

Lets see now, is this DIY forum?
yep

So what if we have a computer lying around, and can do it for close to free?
How does MS-8 compare?

Oh thats right, we have the computer...
 

Clue
This is a DIY forum, yes all the inane sub woofer threads, and the silly passive car speaker recommendations, are making this forum just another car audio forum.

But this forum used to be about DIY, and that included using drivers that where the best bang for the buck. (mostly home audio), and therefore required ACTIVE crossovers and independent channels for there processors.

Tell me again how the MS-8 even remotely fits the bill?


----------



## t3sn4f2

durwood said:


> Agreed. BTW, my carpc cost me <$1000 with software, hardware and screen.  It is the source unit AND processor. Nothing can even come close at this cost and as Abmolech said it is not bound by some things pointed out which pretty much makes it untouchable.


I think its more like $2000 for the bare minimum you'll need for a _fully functional_ _no compromises_ carpc headunit that compares directly to a head unit with a screen.


----------



## durwood

t3sn4f2 said:


> I think its more like $2000 for the bare minimum you'll need for a _fully functional_ _no compromises_ carpc headunit that compares directly to a head unit with a screen.


I accept your challenge. Let's see

AMD BE2350 - $100
matx motherboard - $100
PSU - M2-ATX - $90
1G RAM - $50
Harddrive - $100
DVD drive - $100
OS - $100
Soundcard (let's make it 2 for 16 channels 1010LT) -$400
Audio software - $50+
Screen - $300
GPS - $100

$1500 and I didn't really skimp too bad. If you know what you are looking for it can be done for less.

Of course it CAN cost more, but again, you guys are making excuses. Again I ahve to agree with Abmolech, lots of excuses...this is DIY right?


----------



## OldOneEye

durwood said:


> Who needs minesweeper?
> 
> Tigerdirect, Newegg, mp3car store and forums.
> 
> That's a misconception, that's an excuse.



So please price it out for me what it would cost. No free after rebates, no "I traded this", no warez, just a joe shmoe off the street gets his credit card and buys everything to do what the Ambolech says a tricked out carputer cand do. Sure if you spend a ton of time scrounging around for used deals or deals with great rebates, or black friday, or whatever you can put something pretty cool. But that's not really apples and oranges anymore.

Then factor in the time (there is a cost to people's time). Unless you can figure out how to reverse telecommute (take your home work to work with you and do it on your employers time), people's time is valuable. 

I'm not saying someone who is motivated can't create a pretty bad ass solution that could do more than the MS-8. Just saying that it's not as easy or cheap and would probably cost much more to implement if you factor in people's time being worth at least $15 to $20 an hour (or $50 an hour if you were going to have a tech do it).

So great, it's a DIY forum, and great that people build their own rca cables and carputers and whatever else. But everything you do that the manufacturer paid someone to do still has a cost (monetary, time, etc.).

Heck, I just got rid of my Carputer I bought. It was a nice single DIN unit too. But I bought the thing to do a media library and then figured out that they have some nice home audio devices that you drop a hard drive in and just pipe that into an Aux in on a regular video head unit.

Heck, if I could get a functioning CarPC that did everything that Ambolech's does for under $1000, I would jump on it.

Juan


----------



## durwood

I know some of you have seen this...but here it is again

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29411&highlight=dsp

and this has been posted numerous times

http://www.mp3car.com/wiki/index.php/Audio_Tuning_via_Software


----------



## t3sn4f2

durwood said:


> I accept your challenge. Let's see
> 
> AMD BE2350 - $100
> matx motherboard - $100
> PSU - M2-ATX - $90
> 1G RAM - $50
> Harddrive - $100
> DVD drive - $100
> OS - $100
> Soundcard (let's make it 2 for 16 channels 1010LT) -$400
> Audio software - $50+
> Screen - $300
> GPS - $100
> 
> $1500 and I didn't really skimp too bad. If you know what you are looking for it can be done for less.
> 
> Of course it CAN cost more, but again, you guys are making excuses. Again I ahve to agree with Abmolech, lots of excuses...this is DIY right?


No I agree with the part that it has the potential to be MUCH better, if you willing to put in the time to learn it all, just not the price of the PC though.

The hardrive- $100 bucks off since that one could crap out at any time from the heat and vibrations.

How readable is that $300 monitor in the middle of a sunny day?

Those 2 things right there will push it up another $500 plus the case, the power mate to navigate all your songs, the HD tuner (when it comes out), a mini keyboard and mouse so you dont have to lug around a big cheap clunker under your seat, materials and tools to mount the screen somewhat nicely, it add up rather fast if you want it trouble free like a car specific head unit.


----------



## durwood

OldOneEye said:


> So please price it out for me what it would cost. No free after rebates, no "I traded this", no warez, just a joe shmoe off the street gets his credit card and buys everything to do what the Ambolech says a tricked out carputer cand do. Sure if you spend a ton of time scrounging around for used deals or deals with great rebates, or black friday, or whatever you can put something pretty cool. But that's not really apples and oranges anymore.
> 
> Heck, if I could get a functioning CarPC that did everything that Ambolech's does for under $1000, I would jump on it.


I'll see what I can come up with. It goes against the DIY nature about learning about it (took me close to a year and I'm still learning more), but I'll do my best. Expect a PM soon.


----------



## OldOneEye

durwood said:


> I accept your challenge. Let's see
> 
> AMD BE2350 - $100
> matx motherboard - $100
> PSU - M2-ATX - $90
> 1G RAM - $50
> Harddrive - $100
> DVD drive - $100
> OS - $100
> Soundcard (let's make it 2 for 16 channels 1010LT) -$400
> Audio software - $50+
> Screen - $300
> GPS - $100
> 
> $1500 and I didn't really skimp too bad. If you know what you are looking for it can be done for less.
> 
> Of course it CAN cost more, but again, you guys are making excuses. Again I ahve to agree with Abmolech, lots of excuses...this is DIY right?


DIY Mobile Audio, not a DIY computer forum. What kind of front end are you running? A free one? Your going to be tuning all this on a 7" screen as well? 

Tell me more about this $50 software that does this:

_ Decompresser?
Compressor/limiter? 
Digital input?
Digital output?
Room correction?
Loudness compensation?
Reverberation correction?
Choice of replay modes, Monophonic, stereophonic, surround, Logic7, ambiophonics, quadraphonics, ambisonics, VBAP?
Can correct recordings with VNC or non VNC?
Full active crossovers, using FIR or IIR?
How many independent channels?, IE mine has 48 routable and fully re-clocked.
Time alignment down to nano seconds?
How many EQ Bessel or your choice of FIR filters do you want per channel?
Terabytes storage?
Plays just about any type of audio recording medium?
Full RTA ability?
Can integrate with standard car controls?
Almost unlimited upgrade path?_

Just because you are a very capable computer assembler, doesn't mean everyone else is. That's why some of us just go to Dell and buy a computer off the shelf, and _maybe_ upgrade it by adding memory later.

So we are still comparing a carputer at $1500 (or more, since I don't see a front end or audio software that would exceed what the MS-8 does plus you will need a microphone and probably some other form of tuning the thing besides touchscreen (keyboard and or mouse) and no cost associated to the time it would take to assemble and put into the car) to a $800 unit with a warranty, with a screen you can probably read in daylight, etc.

I got nothing against a carputer (I might run one in my next car if it has room for a larger touchscreen, but a 7" screen isn't going to touch it). 

Not trying to be a Luddite, but some people aren't as comfortable making stuff (DIY might mean you do the work yourself, not make stuff from scratch) and computers are especially frustrating to learn (hey, I make an RCA, if it doesn't come out, I remove the solder and try again). A computer could make you pull your hair out.

So a fully loaded computer will do just about anything (and for that matter, there are some pro audio devices that do lots of the above you could interface with a PC) but they aren't for everyone (or everyone would have one).

Juan


----------



## kappa546

yall are being so winey. since when do we complain about installing/finding deals if it offers better performance. plus people are already spending near carpc prices for nav units and outboard processing units.


----------



## OldOneEye

Abmolech said:


> Lets see now, is this DIY forum?
> yep
> 
> So what if we have a computer lying around, and can do it for close to free?
> How does MS-8 compare?
> 
> Oh thats right, we have the computer...
> 
> 
> Clue
> This is a DIY forum, yes all the inane sub woofer threads, and the silly passive car speaker recommendations, are making this forum just another car audio forum.
> 
> But this forum used to be about DIY, and that included using drivers that where the best bang for the buck. (mostly home audio), and therefore required ACTIVE crossovers and independent channels for there processors.
> 
> Tell me again how the MS-8 even remotely fits the bill?


Are you really assigning a computer with a cost basis of zero? Come on, heck, if your parents give you their old car that could be "free" too... Or if you got it for Christmas... or?

And you make it sound like I'm recommending a 7 band EQ/Booster. The MS-8, compared to almost everything else you can get from a car audio manufacturer, is pretty close to the top offering.

So if we wanted to bring in Pro Audio stuff converted for car use as well as carputers, that's another story altogether.

Juan


----------



## durwood

t3sn4f2 said:


> The hardrive- $100 bucks off since that one could crap out at any time from the heat and vibrations.


Never had a problem with my full size hardrive crapping out. Only issue was reallly cold temps (close to zero). It's running great after 4 years. 



> How readable is that $300 monitor in the middle of a sunny day?


Mine not so good (it was one fo the first liliputs that came out 4-5 years ago), but the newer ones are much brighter. Some people found the right 3M material to make their own sunlight readable, but it's not a huge issue most of the time.



> Those 2 things right there will push it up another $500 plus the case, the power mate to navigate all your songs, the HD tuner (when it comes out), a mini keyboard and mouse so you dont have to lug around a big cheap clunker under your seat, materials and tools to mount the screen somewhat nicely, it add up rather fast if you want it trouble free like a car specific head unit.


Case=build one out of wood or metal or sure you can buy one if you like, it's not completely necessary.

HD tuner-that's optional equipment just as on most headunits. I bought the DEI one (or Visteon) for $100 and the cable to connect it to the pc is $25. I haven;t hooked it up yet. 

Still I think you guys are looking for excuses. I know I was when I had the H701, but now that I have switched, I can't ever go back.


----------



## kkant

Very interesting; I confess the carputer-DSP idea hadn't occurred to me until I saw this thread.

The important questions to me are:

1) What software is available for this task, at a reasonable price? Cubase VST I presume, what else?

2) Can I pile in 5 sound cards with multiple outputs each, and be able to completely customize each output channel via off-the-shelf software like cubase?

On the question of MS-8 vs carputer-DSP, there are several considerations:

1) The JBL has an auto-EQ'ing ability, which is reportedly very good (they won SBN and IASCA or something like that). Auto-EQ'ing is very handy and avoids a lot of pain in the ass work. Of course it still remains to be seen just how good the auto-EQ is. I wonder if you can get comparable autoEQing SW for the PC off the shelf.

2) Space. MS-8 = very small, carputer with multiple soundcards to get a good number of outputs = big.

3) Noise issues. Even with really nice sound cards, not sure if you will be able to make it noise-free when you hook it up to your amps.


----------



## durwood

OldOneEye said:


> So if we wanted to bring in Pro Audio stuff converted for car use as well as carputers, that's another story altogether.


Or you could combine pro audio with a carputer and really go to town.


----------



## kkant

OldOneEye said:


> Tell me more about this $50 software that does this:
> 
> _ Decompresser?
> Compressor/limiter?
> Digital input?
> Digital output?
> Room correction?
> Loudness compensation?
> Reverberation correction?
> Choice of replay modes, Monophonic, stereophonic, surround, Logic7, ambiophonics, quadraphonics, ambisonics, VBAP?
> Can correct recordings with VNC or non VNC?
> Full active crossovers, using FIR or IIR?
> How many independent channels?, IE mine has 48 routable and fully re-clocked.
> Time alignment down to nano seconds?
> How many EQ Bessel or your choice of FIR filters do you want per channel?
> Terabytes storage?
> Plays just about any type of audio recording medium?
> Full RTA ability?
> Can integrate with standard car controls?
> Almost unlimited upgrade path?_


I agree, that is one of my primary questions also. But additionally I want to be able to get at least 8 outputs like the MS-8 has, and preferably more.


----------



## durwood

durwood said:


> I know some of you have seen this...but here it is again
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29411&highlight=dsp
> 
> and this has been posted numerous times
> 
> http://www.mp3car.com/wiki/index.php/Audio_Tuning_via_Software


Everything you want to know is pretty much there^. 



kkant said:


> Very interesting; I confess the carputer-DSP idea hadn't occurred to me until I saw this thread.
> 
> The important questions to me are:
> 
> 1) What software is available for this task, at a reasonable price? Cubase VST I presume, what else?





> 2) Can I pile in 5 sound cards with multiple outputs each, and be able to completely customize each output channel via off-the-shelf software like cubase?


Yes, RME, ESI-pro, M-Audio, Motu-you have to look at the pro cards. You could get up to 32-48 channels of processing if you really wanted to.



> 1) The JBL has an auto-EQ'ing ability, which is reportedly very good (they won SBN and IASCA or something like that). Auto-EQ'ing is very handy and avoids a lot of pain in the ass work. Of course it still remains to be seen just how good the auto-EQ is. I wonder if you can get comparable autoEQing SW for the PC off the shelf.


Audssey and a few other programs with do auto EQ in the software world. Look through my links.



> 2) Space. MS-8 = very small, carputer with multiple soundcards to get a good number of outputs = big.


You sure about that? HOw big is the MS-8? Doesn't it have a built in amp?


> 3) Noise issues. Even with really nice sound cards, not sure if you will be able to make it noise-free when you hook it up to your amps.


Misconception. The right soundcard makes all the difference in the world.


----------



## OldOneEye

Another issue, the MS-8 will be designed to work in the car with all the variations in temps and to interface with aftermarket and OEM systems very well (as far as noise). 

How about any computer?

Juan


----------



## durwood

OldOneEye said:


> DIY Mobile Audio, not a DIY computer forum. What kind of front end are you running? A free one? Your going to be tuning all this on a 7" screen as well?


Roadrunner-frontend.

Ask Milox. I demo-ed it for him a MECA finals.



> Tell me more about this $50 software that does this:
> 
> _ Decompresser?
> Compressor/limiter?
> Digital input?
> Digital output?
> Room correction?
> Loudness compensation?
> Reverberation correction?
> Choice of replay modes, Monophonic, stereophonic, surround, Logic7, ambiophonics, quadraphonics, ambisonics, VBAP?
> Can correct recordings with VNC or non VNC?
> Full active crossovers, using FIR or IIR?
> How many independent channels?, IE mine has 48 routable and fully re-clocked.
> Time alignment down to nano seconds?
> How many EQ Bessel or your choice of FIR filters do you want per channel?
> Terabytes storage?
> Plays just about any type of audio recording medium?
> Full RTA ability?
> Can integrate with standard car controls?
> Almost unlimited upgrade path?_


www.console.jp then use all the FREE VST plugins. 


I'm not saying a carputer is for everyone, but I think most people are afraid to even try it. It can a be a hobby in itself, but to complain that the MS-8 insn't available and to sit and wait for it when you could take a little time here and there to learn other ways...well I undertand a little. I get lazy myself. But there are other options and we are pointing that out.


----------



## thehatedguy

So I can go turn the car on, and expect music right then with a carputer like I could with the MS-8 and deck?

And if something happened and I needed technical support, I could find someone to service or help me with problems like I could with the MS-8?


----------



## RedGTiVR6

durwood said:


> You already have the next generation.  You just need to step up and put it to use.


I know, I know. Unfortunately, with my GTi, it's not as simple as it may be for others. To make the change means a decent amount of additional fabrication and money needs to be spent.

Remove the 701 display: need to redo (refabricate) the center console to do away with the bucket that the display is in. That's a bit of cash to have that repainted, not to mention sanding all of the current paint down and back to a paintable state.

Then, since I'm not using a case in the car, my PCI card I had modified won't work any more. The case was making things run too hot previously so I had to get rid of it and go back to a caseless design.

This means that I have to fabricate a VERY solid mount solution for the PCI card and the riser that I'll have to use and mount that in the car.

Then there's the whole issue with trying to tune on an 8" screen...the programs available right now aren't exactly small screen friendly. I have a very hard time making all of these changes only to have to remote in with my laptop to my CarPC just to have a screen big enough to see what I'm doing. Seems counterproductive...lol

I've looked into other options, but the GTi is in a really great state right now. We're currently putting a very basic install in the truck. With this install, I'll be able to test out different sound cards and options for tuning easily without worrying about the GTi being out of commission for a show. Think of the truck as a test bench...hehe


----------



## RedGTiVR6

thehatedguy said:


> So I can go turn the car on, and expect music right then with a carputer like I could with the MS-8 and deck?


Sure - hibernation or standby will many times bring a computer back to life quicker than some nav units out there currently.



> And if something happened and I needed technical support, I could find someone to service or help me with problems like I could with the MS-8?


No - unless you are willing to use the Mp3Car forums.

I'm amazed at the number of people on this DIY forum who are so against doing a DIY project like this....strange.

If you want to follow the heard, go ahead, no one is telling you not to. However, looking down on people who have decided that they want to dedicated THEIR free time to such a project doesn't exactly make sense.

Just because it's not for you (you being any multiple of people in this instance) doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense for anyone.

All I'm seeing in this thread is a bunch of people trying to discredit the carpc based on THEIR views and what THEY view as important or not...doesn't seem to follow a normal DIY community train of thought.

There are those of us out there who found something that interests us. If no one had ever taken on this project, the CarPC wouldn't have gotten event to the point it is now...no smart PSUs for starters.

I say again, if you're more interested in going with the heard, have at it. A CarPC is NOT for everyone. However, if you like to be on the cutting edge of new ideas and new technology, then yes, a CarPC IS for you.

BTW - we've tried to make things as easy as possible for those unwilling or unable to spend the time to research which components to get to get a CarPC: http://store.mp3car.com/Stage_4_Complete_Car_Computer_Package_p/ccc-126.htm


----------



## Sex Cells

Abmolech said:


> Lets see now, is this DIY forum?
> yep
> 
> So what if we have a computer lying around, and can do it for close to free?
> How does MS-8 compare?
> 
> Oh thats right, we have the computer...
> 
> 
> Clue
> This is a DIY forum, yes all the inane sub woofer threads, and the silly passive car speaker recommendations, are making this forum just another car audio forum.
> 
> But this forum used to be about DIY, and that included using drivers that where the best bang for the buck. (mostly home audio), and therefore required ACTIVE crossovers and independent channels for there processors.
> 
> Tell me again how the MS-8 even remotely fits the bill?


Diversity is good.


----------



## durwood

RedGTiVR6 said:


> I'm amazed at the number of people on this DIY forum who are so against doing a DIY project like this....strange.
> 
> 
> All I'm seeing in this thread is a bunch of people trying to discredit the carpc based on THEIR views and what THEY view as important or not...doesn't seem to follow a normal DIY community train of thought.


...and this is why the very nature of THIS forum is dying. The original thoughts and ideas are very far and few between. It's becoming just like all the other car audio forums out there.


----------



## kappa546

RedGTiVR6 said:


> BTW - we've tried to make things as easy as possible for those unwilling or unable to spend the time to research which components to get to get a CarPC: http://store.mp3car.com/Stage_4_Complete_Car_Computer_Package_p/ccc-126.htm


 after two years of considering it i think you've pretty much sold me. nice!


----------



## thehatedguy

I thought you were the one looking at the MS-8 as an alternative to the H701? Then if that is the case, why don't you follow your own advice and DIY something? Yeah, you have space constraints...but you spearheading the carputer thing and then saying what you've said just now is talking out of both sides of your mouth is it not?

And I haven't seen a pc come out of hibernation as fast as I can turn the power on my Denon and get music.

And I don't have problems with software bugs and issues with a transport. I don't recall getting boot errors when changing CDs.

Fact is carputers are more temperamental and a transport and processor. 



RedGTiVR6 said:


> Sure - hibernation or standby will many times bring a computer back to life quicker than some nav units out there currently.
> 
> 
> 
> No - unless you are willing to use the Mp3Car forums.
> 
> I'm amazed at the number of people on this DIY forum who are so against doing a DIY project like this....strange.
> 
> If you want to follow the heard, go ahead, no one is telling you not to. However, looking down on people who have decided that they want to dedicated THEIR free time to such a project doesn't exactly make sense.
> 
> Just because it's not for you (you being any multiple of people in this instance) doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense for anyone.
> 
> All I'm seeing in this thread is a bunch of people trying to discredit the carpc based on THEIR views and what THEY view as important or not...doesn't seem to follow a normal DIY community train of thought.
> 
> There are those of us out there who found something that interests us. If no one had ever taken on this project, the CarPC wouldn't have gotten event to the point it is now...no smart PSUs for starters.
> 
> I say again, if you're more interested in going with the heard, have at it. A CarPC is NOT for everyone. However, if you like to be on the cutting edge of new ideas and new technology, then yes, a CarPC IS for you.
> 
> BTW - we've tried to make things as easy as possible for those unwilling or unable to spend the time to research which components to get to get a CarPC: http://store.mp3car.com/Stage_4_Complete_Car_Computer_Package_p/ccc-126.htm


----------



## t3sn4f2

People are always going to give their opposite points of view whenever someone over simplifies and compares a complicated hobby inclined product to one that is made user friendly for the masses. They are just saying its not as simple as the ones that know are making it out to be.


----------



## kkant

durwood said:


> Everything you want to know is pretty much there^.


I'll check the links. Lots of stuff for me to check out here, thanks for the pointers. Very intriguing.



durwood said:


> You sure about that? HOw big is the MS-8? Doesn't it have a built in amp?


Yes, it has powered channels on the output, but it is still quite small. About 9x7x2 inches, I think.



durwood said:


> Misconception. The right soundcard makes all the difference in the world.


What do you think of a USB solution in terms of noise, compared to pro PCI soundcards? For example, this:
http://store.mp3car.com/GIGAPort_AG_USB_Sound_Card_with_8_Channel_audio_ou_p/com-066.htm

Hmmmmm. A laptop + USB outputs might be just the ticket....I'll have to think about this some.


----------



## LastResort

My biggest stumbling blocks for creating a CarPC:

I want to use Linux
Boot times
Features


Now all of these are easy to overcome to some degree. Many people would just jump on windows, as their are some pretty good (and some expensive) packages out there to give you the HU like experince. Me, I'm tired of supporting Microsoft and their mediocre products. Between buying windows for 60 bucks, and paying for software, that's atleast 100 bucks that I could spend elsewhere. The problem is: the linux solutions appear to have much suck. So I have quandary.

As far as the bootup times go, I really feel that something like a CarPC should be an application to me, and shutdown/startup almost instantly. Hibernation or standby is a good solution for some people, to me it's not quite there yet. It doesn't give me the good feeling. We shall see.

And the final one, is probably more a factor of my requirements. I want a computer that will do bluetooth phone intergration, including addressbooks and hands free dialing/talking. I want GPS that's not just good, but great. I want OGG support, and wireless support so I can connect to it from my PC and push files up. I can't give up radio reception either, certainly not FM, but even loosing AM seems like a compromise. And most of all, I want it to integrate seamlessly without issues. Rebooting my stereo, fixing crashes, applying patches is not going to go over with the wife very well. 

In the end, I'm going to look at it again when I go to select a Head unit/processor combo. I'm looking at at least a grand between the two for used items, if not more when I add the accessories and new purchases. And that's a substantial budget to spend on a computer. 


Consider me picky, hard to please, and with high expectations. Not to mention unreasonable.


----------



## Babs

Sounds like it really just boils down to what you want.

In this forum, appears the theme is SQ and how to get there without massive expenditures paying someone else to do it... A CarPC, appears to have lots of different capabilities from nav, to bluetooth, to you name it.... So the cost bumps up again in having all that capability, but the tough part is learning how to do the one thing the guy that wants just solid SQ and maybe media storage needs... Which can be typically taken care of by a cda-9887 and Imprint kit, or some other car-audio specific method.

Not knocking the hobby though.. I think the carpc's are pretty darn cool.. But their niche is very very very specific and pinpointed to the PC hobbyist still I think. 

When a car-pc solution can do what a $400 active-capable burr-brown loaded head unit with USB/iPod input can do, and not require hours and hours of forum education and time in the dash, glove box or wherever to install, debug and implement.. I'll be all over it.


----------



## OldOneEye

I get where you are coming from, but asking a question "how hard is it to tune on a 7" screen" isn't bias. Asking for a cost for a complete setup, isn't bias. Asking to know how much time went into something and pointing out that unless you work for an employer that pays you to do it, you are taking away time from something else to do it isn't really bias. 

I mean, some guys are saying "it's free", that is a little indigenous to say the least. Or it's "easy". That's showing some bias. The amount of people here who have installed a signal processor or head unit (so comparable to a MS-8 with a chassis, display, RCA inputs and outputs) is probably hovering in the 95% or more (and the other 5% are probably in the process of doing research). On the other hand, the number of people who have built a PC from scratch, buying all the parts, then figuring out how to integrate the touchscreen (again, I'm going to assume based on the number of builds I have seen at MP3Car that at least 80% go with a regular screen that they integrated into their car versus some sort of slide out or double DIN) is probably very low (I would venture to guess less than 10%).

So while some people are saying "I'm not sure why more people don't do a carputer", it seems that there are few things that might be your typical carputer guy that just happens to be a small part of the car audio population:
1. Comfortable building a PC from scratch, including setting up the OS, BIOS, etc.
2. Comfortable troubleshooting the above.
3. Possibly more money
4. Comfortable configuring multiple pieces of software (some shareware).
5. Comfortable doing fiberglass work, possible making permanent changes to the car.
6. Have time to tweak since things might change before, during and after the install.
7. Willing to run the chance the computer might decide to lock up at the most unfortunate time (competition, etc.).
8. Willing to modify items, voiding the warranty in the process, to get the best sound. 
9. Searching for a replacement for a high end head unit (because they aren't a cost effective replacement for a lower end MP3/CD player.

It seems that lots of the people who have done CarPC have said "why not" and I think the question might be "why?" if you aren't willing to do the above.

Lets say this (and some of the worklogs at MP3 car seem to back this up) some people who have dived into the Carputer pool who didn't do their research (and don't fit the typical profile above) end up with some crazy messes. Not just unsafe (a tower bungee corded in the hatch of a hatchback car, 110 volt inverters with 110 volt wiring floating around the car, messy/nasty/unsafe wiring, etc.) but dangerous.

I did my homework, and wasn't comfortable with doing some of the stuff above so I walked away. I wanted to turn stuff on and have it work right without a ton of time of homework. What time I have to work on the car, I want it be working. I have a weekly allowance of free time for stuff when I'm not watching kids, working, etc. so I want to make it as productive as possible.

Juan




RedGTiVR6 said:


> Sure - hibernation or standby will many times bring a computer back to life quicker than some nav units out there currently.
> 
> 
> 
> No - unless you are willing to use the Mp3Car forums.
> 
> I'm amazed at the number of people on this DIY forum who are so against doing a DIY project like this....strange.
> 
> If you want to follow the heard, go ahead, no one is telling you not to. However, looking down on people who have decided that they want to dedicated THEIR free time to such a project doesn't exactly make sense.
> 
> Just because it's not for you (you being any multiple of people in this instance) doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense for anyone.
> 
> All I'm seeing in this thread is a bunch of people trying to discredit the carpc based on THEIR views and what THEY view as important or not...doesn't seem to follow a normal DIY community train of thought.
> 
> There are those of us out there who found something that interests us. If no one had ever taken on this project, the CarPC wouldn't have gotten event to the point it is now...no smart PSUs for starters.
> 
> I say again, if you're more interested in going with the heard, have at it. A CarPC is NOT for everyone. However, if you like to be on the cutting edge of new ideas and new technology, then yes, a CarPC IS for you.
> 
> BTW - we've tried to make things as easy as possible for those unwilling or unable to spend the time to research which components to get to get a CarPC: http://store.mp3car.com/Stage_4_Complete_Car_Computer_Package_p/ccc-126.htm


----------



## RedGTiVR6

thehatedguy said:


> I thought you were the one looking at the MS-8 as an alternative to the H701? Then if that is the case, why don't you follow your own advice and DIY something?


It's probably not a far stretch to assume that you haven't spent much time on the Mp3Car forums....if so, you would see that I have headed up a lot of discussions just to get people talking about solutions.

Just because I haven't implemented it doesn't mean I'm not working on it.



> Yeah, you have space constraints...but you spearheading the carputer thing and then saying what you've said just now is talking out of both sides of your mouth is it not?


Did you read where I'm working on the truck so that I can test and implement this before doing it in a car with over 700 hours of work on it? Before doing it on a car that is sponsored? If I were to miss a show due to testing out something so unproven I'd be risking a lot. So I'm being smart about it...and you're faulting me?!



> And I haven't seen a pc come out of hibernation as fast as I can turn the power on my Denon and get music.


Notice how I stated Navigation unit? Comparing a CarPC to a regular HU is apples and oranges. A CarPC walks all over a head unit in terms of functionality.

I was comparing to a navigation unit...which is why I stated as such. 



> Fact is carputers are more temperamental and a transport and processor.


I don't think anyone is arguing that here...however, if everyone took the same approach as you are, nothing would be developed, envelopes wouldn't be pushed, new and better products wouldn't exist, and features wouldn't be improved upon.

Through collaboration on the Mp3Car forums, many users have developed methods and hacks to make windows more stable. People have learned how to make CarPCs more stable for that matter.

I should state it again - for a DIY forum, this place sure is full of a bunch of anti DIYers...


----------



## Luke352

durwood said:


> I accept your challenge. Let's see
> 
> AMD BE2350 - $100
> matx motherboard - $100
> PSU - M2-ATX - $90
> 1G RAM - $50
> Harddrive - $100
> DVD drive - $100
> OS - $100
> Soundcard (let's make it 2 for 16 channels 1010LT) -$400
> Audio software - $50+
> Screen - $300
> GPS - $100
> 
> $1500 and I didn't really skimp too bad. If you know what you are looking for it can be done for less.


Whats a CarPC of that level going to be able to do? Chances are store some music and play it, great why didn't I just go out and buy a CD player like every other person? CARPC is great but it isn't what I call bang for buck, if you want performance and something that will do more then alot of normal options out there, you have to spend up. A good example is npdang's CarPC he sold, over $2k invested in it and yeah it does lots, but I showed the link to a CarPC guy I know and he still said he would want to change some stuff purely because he couldnt see it being reliable daily and was likely to freeze up a bit (I'm not say npdang's does it was just this guy's opnion), so it still needed another $500 or more to make it to what he would consider a reliable unit. Your basic software my be cheap but to get some software that makes it worthwhile having the CarPC your well and truly over the $500 mark probably over $1000 to get something really good, and before you say you don't need to use that software you can have something more basic, again my answer to that is then why have the CarPC?


----------



## OldOneEye

RedGTiVR6 said:


> I should state it again - for a DIY forum, this place sure is full of a bunch of anti DIYers...


I think people are here that want to DIY a solution that is better, cheaper, easier, more powerful.

I don't want to guess here, but since you are using a car audio piece for signal processing, what is being gained in the lanes outside of "wow" factor by using a CarPC (point wise)? DIY for the sake of being different (and getting points for that) isn't a game I'm going to play until different is also better, cheaper, easier and/or more powerful. The more powerful is there, but I don't want to give up ergonomics (small screen that isn't that good in sunlight) or cheaper (I got a pretty good deal on the radio I have).

Juan


----------



## thehatedguy

Yeah I read it...

But you have 4 or so months between Finals and the first shows of the year. I doubt there will be that much testing being done that you couldn't do it in the off season and be ready at the beginning of the season. If I remember correctly, you were talking about replacing the H701 at IASCA Finals this year. So obviously this isn't something you have just have decided to do. My question is this- why haven't you already done all of the testing before now? And why aren't you in the implementing stages already?

I don't think Nick is holding you THAT firm to a show schedule.

And to that untested part, wasn't there an issue 2 years ago with the tried and true carputer in the lanes?

An indash nav unit for serious SQ? I'll pass. The only thing a serious competitor is using a CD or DVD player for is a transport.

I think a lot people including me want is something that when if ****s up, I can get it fixed or fix it easily. If I'm at a show and I'm having a problem getting something saved to my Alpine/Zapco/Pioneer processor, chances are there is someone there who can help you if you need it. When my laptop and Rane messed up at Finals in Memphis, I was pretty much up **** creek in terms of support.

I don't think people here are anti DIY anything...but this is a car audio forum, not a computer forum. And as carputing gains momentum, you'll see people here starting to embracing it more. Right now carputers for a lot of people are a novelty that is fostered by the volatile nature of the unit itself.


----------



## RedGTiVR6

OldOneEye said:


> I get where you are coming from, but asking a question "how hard is it to tune on a 7" screen" isn't bias.


That's why you'll see my post about tuning on an 8" screen above...



> Asking for a cost for a complete setup, isn't bias. Asking to know how much time went into something and pointing out that unless you work for an employer that pays you to do it, you are taking away time from something else to do it isn't really bias.


This is all in the same field, is it not? Installing your car audio system takes time away, does it not? This IS a DIY forum, is it not? Everything takes time. Like I said earlier, different people spend their time differently. Some of us choose to spend our time helping to further CarPCs...some on here have different interests...

ANYTHING you do outside of your job is going to take time that is unpaid...that's just a fact of life. If it's something you're interested in, you're willing to spend the time on it...that's part of a hobby!



> I mean, some guys are saying "it's free", that is a little indigenous to say the least. Or it's "easy". That's showing some bias.


It's not free....but searching for options for free software really isn't any different than research which is the best amp for your application...which I would imagine a number of users would do on here in their free time since it's something they are interested in.



> The amount of people here who have installed a signal processor or head unit (so comparable to a MS-8 with a chassis, display, RCA inputs and outputs) is probably hovering in the 95% or more (and the other 5% are probably in the process of doing research). On the other hand, the number of people who have built a PC from scratch, buying all the parts, then figuring out how to integrate the touchscreen (again, I'm going to assume based on the number of builds I have seen at MP3Car that at least 80% go with a regular screen that they integrated into their car versus some sort of slide out or double DIN) is probably very low (I would venture to guess less than 10%).


So? This is a DIY forum, right? 

I'm learning that this really isn't a DIY forum so much..



> So while some people are saying "I'm not sure why more people don't do a carputer", it seems that there are few things that might be your typical carputer guy that just happens to be a small part of the car audio population:
> 1. Comfortable building a PC from scratch, including setting up the OS, BIOS, etc.


This is all taken care of already...a bit of research would yield results on the Mp3Car store...where we have complete solutions available....and we can even install and configure the OS for you.


> 2. Comfortable troubleshooting the above.


If you're willing to learn to troubleshoot car electronics like you should be willing to do by installing your system yourself...



> 3. Possibly more money


Than a simple head unit? Yeup - it's more expensive. Than a multi-media head unit? not so much...



> 4. Comfortable configuring multiple pieces of software (some shareware).


Sure, it might be a bit of a learning curve...but isn't that what DIYers are all about?



> 5. Comfortable doing fiberglass work, possible making permanent changes to the car.


how is that any different than a regular car audio install? Not all CarPCs have to be fabricated in, not by any means.



> 6. Have time to tweak since things might change before, during and after the install.


how is that any different than a regular car audio install?



> 7. Willing to run the chance the computer might decide to lock up at the most unfortunate time (competition, etc.).


I've never had mine lock up in competition...not in the 4 years I've been competing with a PC...and I've made a LOT of shows...



> 8. Willing to modify items, voiding the warranty in the process, to get the best sound.


I haven't modified anything in my car at this time...I'm not sure I follow how this is relavent?



> 9. Searching for a replacement for a high end head unit (because they aren't a cost effective replacement for a lower end MP3/CD player.


Hu?



> It seems that lots of the people who have done CarPC have said "why not" and I think the question might be "why?" if you aren't willing to do the above.


If you aren't willing to do the things above, I'd bet you're the same person who would just take your car to a shop and pay someone to do it all for you.

Again...this is a DIY forum, right?



> Lets say this (and some of the worklogs at MP3 car seem to back this up) some people who have dived into the Carputer pool who didn't do their research (and don't fit the typical profile above) end up with some crazy messes. Not just unsafe (a tower bungee corded in the hatch of a hatchback car, 110 volt inverters with 110 volt wiring floating around the car, messy/nasty/unsafe wiring, etc.) but dangerous.


I've seen some INCREDIBLY unsafe car audio installs...by people who didn't know what they were doing and who didn't bother to do their research.



> What time I have to work on the car, I want it be working. I have a weekly allowance of free time for stuff when I'm not watching kids, working, etc. so I want to make it as productive as possible.


That's the one thing you didn't mention above. Being able to turn it on and it work instantly...without having to configure anything. The CarPC isn't for you then...which is precisely why I've stated that it's not for everyone. However, for the majority of the excuses you've given...I see them as just that - excuses...not legitimate reasons. The only legitimate reason I've seen so far are the quote right above here.


----------



## RedGTiVR6

thehatedguy said:


> Yeah I read it...
> 
> But you have 4 or so months between Finals and the first shows of the year. I doubt there will be that much testing being done that you couldn't do it in the off season and be ready at the beginning of the season. If I remember correctly, you were talking about replacing the H701 at IASCA Finals this year. So obviously this isn't something you have just have decided to do. My question is this- why haven't you already done all of the testing before now? And why aren't you in the implementing stages already?


Money...plain and simple. We purchased a house....moved....moved in...and are short on money....have been short on money for a while now...you know, that whole saving up for a down payment on a house?

Reason enough?

In order to test, I need a CarPC in the truck...that takes money...

I should also note that my work has become VERY busy lately, travel for me has ramped up a great deal, as has it for my husband....and yes, that includes weekend.



> I don't think Nick is holding you THAT firm to a show schedule.


Nick doesn't hold us to ANYTHING. We hold ourselves to it. It's a moral issue. They have assisted us, we at least owe it to them to be at shows. We don't have a set show schedule we must attend.



> And to that untested part, wasn't there an issue 2 years ago with the tried and true carputer in the lanes?


Which time specifically? At IASCA a few years ago we had an issue with an amplifier that decided to cut out...then we found out it was actually the Alpine processor - the back two channels were cutting out on us.

To be honest, I've been to a lot of shows over the 10 years I've been competing...chances might be pretty good that I've forgotten a few shows and the events that occurred...however, I should note that failing car audio equipment apparently isn't entirely unheard of either. I mean, there is a clause in almost any rule book that allows for time to fix malfunctioning equipment, right? If it weren't needed, it wouldn't be there.



> An indash nav unit for serious SQ? I'll pass. The only thing a serious competitor is using a CD or DVD player for is a transport.


No - but we're not JUST talking about serious sq in this entire thread, are we? Besides that, I'd back up a CarPC for serious SQ any day.



> I think a lot people including me want is something that when if ****s up, I can get it fixed or fix it easily. If I'm at a show and I'm having a problem getting something saved to my Alpine/Zapco/Pioneer processor, chances are there is someone there who can help you if you need it. When my laptop and Rane messed up at Finals in Memphis, I was pretty much up **** creek in terms of support.


Then it's not for you at this point! I've stated it many times...it's not for everyone. There, I've said it again....look at that!



> I don't think people here are anti DIY anything...but this is a car audio forum, not a computer forum. And as carputing gains momentum, you'll see people here starting to embracing it more. Right now carputers for a lot of people are a novelty that is fostered by the volatile nature of the unit itself.


I agree. Which is why I choose to persue it even more. To help move it from a novelty...


----------



## durwood

Luke352 said:


> Whats a CarPC of that level going to be able to do? Chances are store some music and play it, great why didn't I just go out and buy a CD player like every other person? CARPC is great but it isn't what I call bang for buck, if you want performance and something that will do more then alot of normal options out there, you have to spend up. A good example is npdang's CarPC he sold, over $2k invested in it and yeah it does lots, but I showed the link to a CarPC guy I know and he still said he would want to change some stuff purely because he couldnt see it being reliable daily and was likely to freeze up a bit (I'm not say npdang's does it was just this guy's opnion), so it still needed another $500 or more to make it to what he would consider a reliable unit. Your basic software my be cheap but to get some software that makes it worthwhile having the CarPC your well and truly over the $500 mark probably over $1000 to get something really good, and before you say you don't need to use that software you can have something more basic, again my answer to that is then why have the CarPC?


Well it's too bad you don't understand. Just because npdang spent a couple thousand on plugins doesn't mean you can't get close to similar results with the free ones. If you really knew what you were talking about then you wouldn't say you don't see the value. The free ones require some understanding of the theory. Damn...to actually have to learn about some theory to use it...crap!
I find it amazing that when people don't understand something, they automatically write it off as worthless. Plenty of hours were spent finding shareware plugins for the cheap that don't see the value in things. 

If all you want is music storage then it's a waste. I agree. Once you turn it into an audio processor and use it for GPS, traffic, etc it starts to show it's true value.

I can't wait until everyone waiting for the MS-8 gets it trys it, and has no clue on how to actually set it up. Npdang is pretty damn good at measuring and understanding things and even he had trouble with the Alpine PXE-H650. Once he did understand it, he realized it was limited. Can't same the same for the PC processor he sold, but he will also tell you it probably took plenty of time to set it up. I've also heard of people returning the 650 because either they didn't like it or didn't know how to use it.

Time will tell on the MS-8 piece....how long has everyone been waiting? How long has Biggs had one? Hmmm....I still think it missed the boat.

What's the holdup again on the MS-8?


----------



## durwood

thehatedguy said:


> I think a lot people including me want is something that when if ****s up, I can get it fixed or fix it easily. If I'm at a show and I'm having a problem getting something saved to my Alpine/Zapco/Pioneer processor, chances are there is someone there who can help you if you need it. When my laptop and Rane messed up at Finals in Memphis, I was pretty much up **** creek in terms of support.


Best thing about a computer IS support. IF a part screws up, run to a computer store and pick one up. 

Worried about a harddrive crash at a show? I carry an extra one that is an exact duplicate of the one in my car to every show. Never had to use it, but it's ready to go just in case. 

Best part about a carputer. Every piece of it can be changed out for upgrade reasons or for troubleshooting.


kkant-

If you want to use a laptop no problem. They make DC-DC power supplies for those too. No need for an inverter. For an external soundcards, look at the firewire options. USB tends to bog down the CPU. Fireface 400, Firewire 410, MOTU Ultralite are a couple of options.


----------



## thehatedguy

Andy has gone through how you set the MS-8 up on Carsound. It was pretty easy. It will be shipping this summer.


----------



## durwood

thehatedguy said:


> Andy has gone through how you set the MS-8 up on Carsound. It was pretty easy. It will be shipping this summer.


SO what was the holdup?


----------



## 8675309

If you want to spend the jack! A Carputer will do anything and more compared to the basic market of car audio.


----------



## thehatedguy

Go read the thread on Carsound...I don't remember the specifics.


----------



## durwood

Well last I read it was either the patent they were applying for or the user interface. The people that I had asked said it was mainly the interface-making it user friendly and easy to use. To me it sounds like you will still have to understand how to use it for it to work correctly. I think most people have in their imagination you plug it in, press one button and wala! you have good sound without understanding the inner workings. I'll be impressed if it's even half as easy to use as he makes it out be.


----------



## thehatedguy

From the people I've talked to who have a prototype unit, it is pretty much that easy to use. And from the demo of a prototype unit in Steve Head's truck (may have been in Bigg's car when I judged it at ESN the other year), it worked well, really really well.


----------



## bdubs767

Whats the MSRP goign to be on the MS-8?


----------



## thehatedguy

Last I heard MSRP was in the $800 range.


----------



## kkant

durwood said:


> Best thing about a computer IS support. IF a part screws up, run to a computer store and pick one up.


Very true. Also, no reliance on proprietary stuff you can't change, especially on the software side. There's lots of theoretical benefits to a DIY processor of this kind; I am seriously thinking of trying this out...especially since I have a laptop already.

The MS-8 has some possible advantages too, in the SQ department. They have a proprietary EQ and tuning algorithm which looks very promising on paper, and it remains to be seen whether the software available for a DIY DSP solution can beat that (or perhaps, the other way around).



durwood said:


> For an external soundcards, look at the firewire options. USB tends to bog down the CPU. Fireface 400, Firewire 410, MOTU Ultralite are a couple of options.


Good call, I will look into that.


----------



## Abmolech

I personally cant see what the problem with using a computer that you no longer use. Effectively it is free.
I would bet that the vast majority of people posting on this forum have one lying around.

It is a bit interesting when a guy criticises a PC for having mods and "not standard" , who happily modded a rane process to work in a car. 

Same bunch of guys talk about the steep learning curve and time, yet cut up their cars, rebuild them time and time again. 

I think it is time the big "H" word came out.  

Bunch of ostriches.


----------



## thehatedguy

I didn't say anything about mods and nonstandard stuff...you have me confused with someone else. But I have talked about how much of a PITA it was to have a proaudio based processor in the car and getting it to work in the car.

Seems like it is easier to get things to work in their intended native applications.

Just like a radio, I don't have extra computers laying around...and if I were going to use one, I would have to buy either. And I think there are a few people like me...so the initial cost of a deck or a carputer would not be zero.

So, go put your H word back up.




Abmolech said:


> I personally cant see what the problem with using a computer that you no longer use. Effectively it is free.
> I would bet that the vast majority of people posting on this forum have one lying around.
> 
> It is a bit interesting when a guy criticise a PC for having mods and "not standard" , who happily modded a rane process to work in a car.
> 
> Same bunch of guys talk about the steep learning curve and time, yet cut up their cars, rebuild them time and time again.
> 
> I think it is time the big "H" word came out.
> 
> Bunch of ostriches.


----------



## Abmolech

Nope I am going still use it.

How many times have you changed that install etc?


> Seems like it is easier to get things to work in their intended native applications.


Well the next time you instruct people not to use the doors etc for there speakers (native place) I will be waiting.....

OK you have no second computer lying around.
Guess how much a second hand P4 will cost you?
Wander down to your local shop they will probably give you a trade in one for close to free. It is quite probable most people would give you one. I have three I would happily give away.

So how does the MS-8 control active speakers again?


----------



## OldOneEye

Abmolech said:


> I personally cant see what the problem with using a computer that you no longer use. Effectively it is free.
> I would bet that the vast majority of people posting on this forum have one lying around.


What kind of machine do you think most of us are using right now? I mean, your talking about upgrade sound card, bigger hard drive, etc. I have an old computer, its going on 3.5 years old. It came with a 40 gig hard drive, and 512 of memory. Cheapest Dell I could find, paid $230 to my door after rebate. It's a mid-tower, not exactly sure why I would put something that size in my car. I would probably have to buy a sound card, a bigger hard drive, a power supply and/or inverter, and a touch screen. Not free by and stretch, and after all is said and done, I'm hot rodding a 4 year old machine with the "free" machine being the weakest link in all of it.

I would bet the vast majority of people here do not have a machine just lying around, nor a desire to take some big mid or full tower and drag it into their car if they did. I'm all for Jan's approach (small form factor hidden in the car). Outside of work related duties (which is why I got a laptop), my 4 year old machine is good enough for using Office, and browsing the net. Not much else it needs to do. If it wasn't for the kids using it, the thing would probably get turned into a media center. Probably won't be replaced until it dies.

Juan


----------



## Abmolech

Go down to your local small computer store, they would probably give you a better one for free.


----------



## thehatedguy

I do have the POS laptop that I bought to control the Rane. But it has a bad embedded graphics card. So it's pretty much useless.

How many times have I changed the install since the Rane? 2 new complete installs in 5 years. Few minor ones to change amps.

I only say to use doors if you have to.

If I knew that without a shadow of a doubt that the carputer would be reliable, easy to use, and provide me with the same or better sound than what I would get with either the Rane or the MS-8...for a low cost, I know a JBL dealer who can get me a deal on the MS-8 when it comes out, and I already have a nice deck.

So, how is a carputer cheaper for me?

And say if I don't go the MS-8 route and use the Rane. The only thing I would use the carputer for would be a music server. I have no need or desire for the other things. Granted, it would be really nice to have all of my music at one place easy to access. But again, I want music now. When I turn the car on, I want music then. And I don't want finicky or fickle stuff to mess with...part of the reason why I want to get the MS-8 and take the Rane out.

MS-8 controls the sound the same way you car runs. But neither are from a converted desktop/laptop machine.


----------



## thehatedguy

I wish. Around here the places will gladly sell you a used no warranty P2 for $150.



Abmolech said:


> Go down to your local small computer store, they would probably give you a better one for free.


----------



## Abmolech

Are you serious?
They would be collectors items here.
It would cost me more to put my computer in the garbage than what i could sell it for here. this ones a P4 2.6 with 2 gigs of memory, only way I would get anything for it, is someone wanted the genuine XP on it.


----------



## OldOneEye

$150 > free.

Out here you still have to spend a few bucks either way, and frankly, I'm not spending a ton of time fixing up some old POS computer just to have it die. Like painting a car, getting a new suspension and then putting in a used motor. Not my thing.

Juan


----------



## thehatedguy

Yeap, unfortunately so.

Again, might be my particular market.

And I've been flirting with the carputer thing for a couple of years now...and if there is any person who really really wanted it to be a "simple" solution, it would be me. I really hate having to take all of my CDs around with me. I only use the digital input on the Rane, and if there was a way I could get everything in one place AND keep it all in a digital output AND keep the files uncompressed...well, it wouldn't take much to get me onboard. Maybe a couple of years a go I would/could have put up with the fickle nature of the beast, but right now I'm tired of special this and that, and I just want crap to work the first time without any headaches.



Abmolech said:


> Are you serious?
> They would be collectors items here.
> It would cost me more to put my computer in the garbage than what i could sell it for here. this ones a P4 2.6 with 2 gigs of memory, only way I would get anything for it, is someone wanted the genuine XP on it.


----------



## durwood

I salvaged a pentium4 mobile 1.6Ghz processor off ebay $25 shipped. Ancient board from tigerdirect $20. 512MB ram, $20. 

Runs everything just fine. Audio processing up the wazzoo and I can still use GPS and such. Only time it bogs down is video, but it can still crank it out. I really don't need video, but everyone always asks, does it play DVD's?

Companies practically give away P4's now when they upgrade their office PC's. Find a guy dumping older P4's off of lease. Make a smaller case (we don't need the bulky PSU), buy a DC-DC unit. Call it a day.

Just trying to give you options guys.

If you can compact it down, a microATX board is about 9.6"x8.5".


----------



## thehatedguy

<- needs to find these P4s that are going to these dumpsters. Could use one in the car and a new one in the house.


----------



## Abmolech

I would love to give you some of mine (Nice to see them go to a good home. )

Make friends with your local small computer store.
They "trade them in" sometimes, otherwise they would get the customer to give you theirs.


----------



## durwood

thehatedguy said:


> <- needs to find these P4s that are going to these dumpsters. Could use one in the car and a new one in the house.


I don't know about free, but I see them everywhere for about $20-30. Sometimes you can land a good deal off egay for $20 shipped.

I've got a guy I've bought a few things from that he gets pc's off leases and sells them cheap @ mp3car. I picked up P4 2.4Ghz with motherboard and 512MB RAM for $60 shipped and he threw in another 1G of RAM.


----------



## thehatedguy

I'll have to start bugging some of my computer nerd friends and see what they have laying around...or can get access to.


----------



## durwood

If you have a socket 478 motherboard-

$8 - 1.8Ghz


----------



## durwood

thehatedguy said:


> I'll have to start bugging some of my computer nerd friends and see what they have laying around...or can get access to.


There you go. If they are true computer nerds they WILL have a stash.


----------



## durwood

.


----------



## Abmolech

Start a thread in off topic, to see if someone will give thehatedguy a decent computer?
I am sure there would be heaps of them around.


----------



## thehatedguy

<- is the guy who at the time had some free cash for a project and found out the day AFTER npdang sold his carputer that he had it forsale at a crackhead price.


----------



## thehatedguy

Mmm, some people might, but it would be loaded with viruses just to get back at me for being so loved    



Abmolech said:


> Start a thread in off topic, to see if someone will give thehatedguy a decent computer?
> I am sure there would be heaps of them around.


----------



## Abmolech

> Mmm, some people might, but it would be loaded with viruses just to get back at me for being so loved


ROFL


----------



## thehatedguy

durwood, that processor chip and this MB would be a good start?

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Pentium-4-C...ryZ80158QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


----------



## qpwoeiruty999

thehatedguy said:


> durwood, that processor chip and this MB would be a good start?
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Pentium-4-C...ryZ80158QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Though i'm not durwood, i personally bought a mobo similar to http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-MSI-915GM...ageNameZWD2VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m122 . 

You can make your own research, but i personally feel that a Pentium M processor of 1.86GHz and up is minimum for the requirements of audio processing. Also cheap, efficient, low power requirements.


----------



## durwood

thehatedguy said:


> durwood, that processor chip and this MB would be a good start?
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Pentium-4-C...ryZ80158QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Hmm, not familiar with biostar boards but the price is a little high. Brands I've had good luck with:

ASUS
Intel
Gigabyte
MSI

Most of those you can find for around $40-50. I should make a run to my local tigerdirect and see if they have any intel boards on the shelf. I picked one up from them for $20. The processor I linked is a regular desktop PC CPU and they can be power and heat hogs and might not withstand the car environment. I only linked it to show they are cheap.



qpwoeiruty999 said:


> Though i'm not durwood, i personally bought a mobo similar to http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-MSI-915GM...ageNameZWD2VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m122 .
> 
> You can make your own research, but i personally feel that a Pentium M processor of 1.86GHz and up is minimum for the requirements of audio processing. Also cheap, efficient, low power requirements.


I agree the pentium mobile processors are the way to go due to low heat and power requirements which means you can use a cheaper DC-DC PSU and a low noise fan on the CPU. They are reasonabley priced an best bang for the buck.

Here are viable Carputer options.

1) Pentium M socket 479 processors >1.8Ghz $50-100+
2) Socket 479 motherboard $50-100
3) M2-ATX DC-DC PSU $90

Downside-those processors and motherboards are not the best deal price wise

1) Pentium 4 Mobile socket 478 processors 1.5Ghz-2Ghz range-$20-60
2) Socket 478 motherboard $20-50
3) M2-ATX DC-DC PSU $90

Best bang for the buck if you can find a used motherboard. This combo will give you the bare minimum for a carpc processor.

If you want newer hardware and want to be a little mroe on top of current tech

1) AMD BE2300 or 2350 dual core processor. ~$100
2) socket AM2 motherboard ~$50-100
3) M2-ATX DC-DC PSU $90

If you go with regular pentium 4 processors or AMD (which I DON"T recommend) then you have to step up to a $200-250 DC-DC power supply. Same goes for the new intel duo core chips.

This is pretty far OT, so if anyone is really serious, start up a separate thread and we can talk about other hardware options.


----------



## kkant

durwood said:


> Hmm, not familiar with biostar boards but the price is a little high. Brands I've had good luck with:
> 
> ASUS
> Intel
> Gigabyte
> MSI


I will stress the Gigabyte recommendation. Especially for a audio or home theater application. Most other boards make noise, commonly called "coil whine" or "chirping crickets", when the CPU is at nonzero load. The *only* recent boards I've bought that do not have this problem are Gigabyte boards. The Gigabyte boards are explicitly designed with better power supply components (caps, coils) to avoid the coil whine problem.


----------



## RedGTiVR6

OldOneEye said:


> $150 > free.
> 
> Out here you still have to spend a few bucks either way, and frankly, I'm not spending a ton of time fixing up some old POS computer just to have it die. Like painting a car, getting a new suspension and then putting in a used motor. Not my thing.
> 
> Juan


GUYS! REALLY?!

You all are acting like you get your head units for free! I don't think anyone is suggesting that you go and swap out your already paid for equipment for a CarPC...I see that we're saying if someone were to start an install and might consider buying a new or a replacement HU a CarPC would be an option!

How in the world did this get so twisted?!


----------



## OldOneEye

RedGTiVR6 said:


> GUYS! REALLY?!
> 
> You all are acting like you get your head units for free! I don't think anyone is suggesting that you go and swap out your already paid for equipment for a CarPC...I see that we're saying if someone were to start an install and might consider buying a new or a replacement HU a CarPC would be an option!
> 
> How in the world did this get so twisted?!


The issue isn't the free part, but the feeling that some of us are unwashed masses for not trying it because its see "cheap", "quick", "easy" and "free". I think the word "ostrich" came up as well. 

For some people a CarPC is a great solution. I work with a guy who is building a killer one for his car and I've learned a lot from him. But you have to do your process and like anything, you get out of it what you put into it.

I just have an issue with people making blanket statements like the ones that have been made in this post. If someone had said "it's a good amount of work, a good amount of money, but well worth it for those who have the skills to do it", I don't think this thread would have headed the way it did.

Juan


----------



## sedtc

if i may chime in: the carputer is definately superior. after having one in my ride, it feels downright anachronistic to drive around without one but i also understand that it is not for everyone. an 8" touchscreen with a custom front end skin certainly trumps the tiny screen available on even the double din units and i don't miss the esoteric interfaces that are used on most HUs. i can't remember the last time i had to handle a CD in the car and that alone was worth the price of admission. with an effecient dual core cpu and a highend audio card, it would be that much easier to add audio processing to the list of carputer duties. all of this functionality can be attained for less than $1k (depending on hardware choices) and still outperform almost all of the HU and/or external processors i've seen used.

bottom line: using the traditional HUs are like running a set of off the shelf components with the included passive crossover while the carputer is much more akin to an active set up; the carputer is simply more user configurable than any other solutions available. for some of you who love tweaking your set up, the carputer is problably a smaller leap than you would expect. 

/sales pitch


----------



## durwood

OldOneEye said:


> The issue isn't the free part, but the feeling that some of us are unwashed masses for not trying it because its see "cheap", "quick", "easy" and "free". I think the word "ostrich" came up as well.
> 
> I just have an issue with people making blanket statements like the ones that have been made in this post. If someone had said "it's a good amount of work, a good amount of money, but well worth it for those who have the skills to do it", I don't think this thread would have headed the way it did.


I can see that. "Free" was probably not completely true- we tend to get emotional for some things we believe in.  

I can build bare bones systems for people and get the basic software/hardware setup (including windows) if they like. I cannot distribute freeware and shareware though legally, the pay versions yes but they are costly. Also, I'd have to limit support because I know how quickly computer questions can escalate and take up an enormous amount of time-which I have limited time as everyone else. Would this interest anyone? 

Again, I strongly recommend moving this discussion to a new thread or a different thread. I'm the one responsible as I instigated the derailing of the original thread.


----------



## SSSnake

However, the software costs to get you to MS-8 levels of performance are going to be pretty steep. I would be surprised if you could buy the HW and SW for less than the $1K mentioned. If so let me know because I happed to have a MOBO and processor lying around and I would love the throw it in the car.

Keep in mind I am looking for the following features:
4 way active xover (this includes sub)
Outputs for front, rear, and center
31 Band Graphic EQ for each channel
7 band Parametric EQ for each channel (love the ability to use parametric and graphic on the same channel - which most Car PCs can do)
Time Alignment for each channel
Gain Control (pretty easy)

Added bonus
a good expander

I am not familiar if the MS-8 can do all of these (pretty sure it doesn't do the expander function) but from memory it gets pretty close.


BTW - If someone buys all of my Alpine gear for a good price I'll put the Car PC in tomorrow (otherwise I would just use the PC as a processor - as indicated above).

9861
701
TME-770
DVD changer (don't remember the number)


----------



## kkant

SSSnake said:


> Keep in mind I am looking for the following features:
> 4 way active xover (this includes sub)
> Outputs for front, rear, and center
> 31 Band Graphic EQ for each channel
> 7 band Parametric EQ for each channel (love the ability to use parametric and graphic on the same channel - which most Car PCs can do)
> Time Alignment for each channel
> Gain Control (pretty easy)
> 
> Added bonus
> a good expander


All of the above is quite straightforward. I don't know for sure about the expander, but I'm almost certain you can get all of this for free for a PC with the links that durwood has provided in this thread.

But the MS-8 will do more than this. It provides a proprietary EQ that "is better than a parametric/graphic" in the words of the JBL rep (not sure how much weight to give that yet). And it has an auto-eq'ing function that takes binaural measurements at multiple seat positions and head positions, and has already won several nationwide SQ contests (not sure how much to weight this yet, either). Those are the functions that I think will be difficult to match on the PC side.


----------



## t3sn4f2

CarPCs SOCK! I'll be getting one though  Lets see someone argue that one


----------



## durwood

kkant said:


> All of the above is quite straightforward. I don't know for sure about the expander, but I'm almost certain you can get all of this for free for a PC with the links that durwood has provided in this thread.
> 
> But the MS-8 will do more than this. It provides a proprietary EQ that "is better than a parametric/graphic" in the words of the JBL rep (not sure how much weight to give that yet). And it has an auto-eq'ing function that takes binaural measurements at multiple seat positions and head positions, and has already won several nationwide SQ contests (not sure how much to weight this yet, either). Those are the functions that I think will be difficult to match on the PC side.



Yep on the first part. I use a 64band parametric that is free. You can even switch it between analog or digital mode. It's in the link at mp3car I provided.

Proprietary EQ? Well whatever, sounds like a fancy way of not calling it Room Correction. I personally have not used room correction yet, but there are pay versions like Audiolense or you can use DRC/bruteFIR for free. Again, both those should be in the mp3car link and if you dig aroudn there are guides on how to use it.


----------



## quality_sound

sedtc said:


> i can't remember the last time i had to handle a CD in the car


that's gotta suck when you buy a new cd...or want to compete.


----------



## durwood

quality_sound said:


> that's gotta suck when you buy a new cd...or want to compete.


You can still have a CD/DVD player in the car.   

I'm sure that he means it cuts down on searching for discs in the car when you already have the music loaded up.


----------



## SSSnake

I retract the cost statement. I was considering purchasing NPDangs system and remembered the costs of the included SW  

Durwood you've got mail.


----------



## npdang

Carputer didn't work for me. It's not 100% stable like a hardware box, and the start/shutdown times we're a bit annoying. I think for simple setups it can work great, but just try running all these fancy toys we love and it may (or not) be a dealbreaker for you.


----------



## Abmolech

http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum//showthread.php?t=65668



> I've received lots of PM and a bunch of questions about how this thing will work, so this is more for informative purposes than a shameless plug for our product...For those of you who may be wondering about this thing, Here's a description:
> 
> MS-8 comes with the pre-amp/amp, a small display, a wireless remote control, a binaural microphone and a setup CD.
> 
> MS-8 will have 8 speaker level inputs, 8 line level inputs and an iPod input. The inputs are summed to provide a full-range 2-channel signal. If 6 or fewer inputs are required, then the last 2 can be used for an additional aux input.
> 
> There are no digital inputs. Why? Because the real benefit of digital input is "no noise". The downside to providing one is that for 99 percent of users, it's more hassle than it's worth and will cause a great deal of confusion. Not too many people understand that the connector doesn't determine the signal. What I mean is, if we put a toslink input and a user hooks up a toslink output, it will only work is the signal is compatible. DVD-Audio isn't available on a digital output, DVD signals are 48k, PCM is 44.1, home-made digital audio can be anything. The signal from tuners is often only output on the RCAs. For the vast majority of users, there is no benefit and too much opportunity for disappointment. As far as noise goes, our inputs are differential, so the commoon mode noise rejection is super high. There won't be any noise.
> 
> There are 8 input channels, so the 8 speaker level inputs and 8 line level inputs are basically in parallel. You can use any combination.
> 
> Once the signals have been combined and un-EQed (for a flat 2-channel signal), the signal is processed with Logic7. That provides signal steering for a center channel (if you have one--if not, no problem) and processing for side and rear channels. L7 works on any 2-channel source and is our version is written for cars rather than live-in rooms, so it sounds MUCH better than any of the encoded formats in a car. The 2-channel downmix of any encoded DVD or DVD-A disc will play back in full surround. If good-old 2-channel is what you want, L7 is defeatable and the channels are fully configurable (there are 8 output channels and they can be pre-amp channels or powered channels--20W x 8 at 4 ohms, 30W at 2 ohms). You can have 3-way front, a center and a sub, 2-way front, rear and a sub...whatever you want to do.
> 
> The electronic crossover that's built in is fully configurable. You can assign any channel to be anything and it includes an EZ setup mode and an advanced mode. In EZ setup, you tell each channel the speaker location (front right, for example), then you tell it what speaker is connected (6" full-range). It sets the crossover point. In advanced mode, you tell the channel the location (right front) and then assign a filter type (HP, LP, BP) and then you set the filter frequency (you can assign any value between 20 at 20kHz) and the slope (1st-4th order).
> 
> After the crossover setup is completed, you move on to the EQ. You put on the microphones (they look like airline headphones but contain mics instead of speakers) and insert the CD. The display will give you some instructions to sit in the driver's seat and look at the left mirror and press "go". the unit will make a quick sweep of all 8 output channels. Then it will ask you to look forward and will make another sweep. Finally, it'll ask you to look to the right--another quick sweep. You can measure only the driver's seat or up to 4 seats. After the measurements are made (takes about 5 minutes) the unit will calculate the frequency response, level and arrival time for all 8 channels in each seat and crunch some numbers (another 30 seconds or so). It auto-tunes the car with 48 measurements per seat (up to 4 seats). It will output a tuning optimized for the driver, passenger, compromise between driver and passenger and one for the rear seats. If you use a center channel, both front seats will sound the same and the image will be great for rear seat passengers too.
> 
> After the auto-tuning is done, it will allow you to change the target curve. You can call up a 31-band EQ tool and make whatever changes you want. Unlike a regular EQ, you don't have to find an RTA and tune the car with the EQ, you just draw the curve you want to hear and press "go" and it does the work in implementing your curve. Then you can switch back and forth between your curve and the automatic one and continue making changes until you're satisfied. The curve you draw will always be adjusted in level so that the maximum number of bits are available to describe the signal (optimized for dynamic range). Once you save the curve, you can access any of the settings optimized for any seat using the remote control and the display.
> 
> You can turn Logic7 on and off, adjust the level of the center channel, use a balance control, fader, 3 or 11-band graphic EQ or adjust the level of the bass. THe bass control isn't a gain control for the subwoofer output, it's a filter that works with the crossover and applies the right amount of bass to ALL channels so the illusion of bass up front isn't destroyed when you turn up the bass.
> 
> Answers to some likely questions:
> 
> 1. You don't have to use the unit's volume control. You can use the one in the head-unit if you want to.
> 2. Maximum input voltage on the RCAs is 2V and 15V on the speaker level inputs. The signal is converted directly into digital after the preamp buffer, so a high signal level is far less important in this device than in conventional ones. The input is fully differential, so there won't be noise. I suggest speaker level connections because they are COMPLETELY isolated from ground.
> 3. The automatic EQ isn't exactly parametric or graphic. It's a very powerful algorithm that works on the impulse response to adjust both time and frequency response. It's amazing and does in about 30 seconds what I can do with an 80 band parametric EQ, crossover, time alignment and a serious analyzer in about 3 days.
> 4. The display doesn't have to be mounted. If you don't want iPod control or the ability to adjust after setup, you can unplug the display and use MS-8 as a "black box".
> 5. The unit is small--about 8.5" x 11" x 2.5"
> 6. Price will be about $800...TBD
> 7. The software is updatable via USB and a PC.
> 
> It does what all other OEM integration tools do and what every other DSP (EQ, Crossover, Time alignment, 7.1) processors do, but it sounds better, is easier to use, is less expensive and is far more advanced in terms of DSP power. Best of all, it's a tool you can be successful with, rather than a whiz-bang collection of filters and adjustment possibilities that require a PhD in acousitcs to use.
> 
> __________________
> Andy Wehmeyer
> Product Marketing Manager
> Harman Consumer Group
> Mobile Systems Division


We have an 8 channel output.

Can ANYBODY explain to me how your going to be to do a Logic7 setup with this, using an active setup?

Clue
Three way front
Two way centre
Two way rear
two way sides
Sub


I count 17 channels required.

For most of you, your only going to be able to use this for a two channel stereo(?) front.

It is therefore going up against the incumbents.

All that work on the MS-8 is going for Logic7 to work in a car. It is a MAJOR upgrade over two channel.

Point
It is designed for a "standard car setup". IE factory positions and passive crossovers. If this floats your boat, your in the wrong site.


----------



## kkant

Abmolech said:


> We have an 8 channel output.
> 
> Can ANYBODY explain to me how your going to be to do a Logic7 setup with this, using an active setup?


Obviously, the solution is to use further active crossovers after the MS-8. My plan with the MS-8 is completely active, and involves a 4-way left, 4-way center, 4-way right, plus a sub on the bottom. To do this I will need 5 additional active crossovers. This means I give up time alignment between the tweeters and dome mids and midranges, but I don't care since all these speakers are co-located in my install.


----------



## Abmolech

So how does that compare to a car computer price wise?


----------



## t3sn4f2

kkant said:


> Obviously, the solution is to use further active crossovers after the MS-8. My plan with the MS-8 is completely active, and involves a 4-way left, 4-way center, 4-way right, plus a sub on the bottom. To do this I will need 5 additional active crossovers. This means I give up time alignment between the tweeters and dome mids and midranges, but I don't care since all these speakers are co-located in my install.



Yup yup. Mine will be a little simpler though, either no rear and active 2 way LCR+sub all from the MS-8 or with rears and LCR 2-way active with exterior active DSP for the single center channel output.


----------



## kkant

Abmolech said:


> So how does that compare to a car computer price wise?


I can get five 24db active xovers for $40 each from marchandelec.com, as prebuilt circuit boards with setscrew I/O terminals. They need a regulated DC-DC power supply, which you can get at mouserelectronics.com for about $70 (this single PS will drive all five xovers with room to spare).


----------



## Dillyyo

durwood said:


> Everything you want to know is pretty much there^.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, RME, ESI-pro, M-Audio, Motu-you have to look at the pro cards. You could get up to 32-48 channels of processing if you really wanted to.
> 
> 
> 
> Audssey and a few other programs with do auto EQ in the software world. Look through my links.
> 
> 
> 
> You sure about that? HOw big is the MS-8? Doesn't it have a built in amp?
> 
> 
> Misconception. The right soundcard makes all the difference in the world.





Maybe I missed something in this thread and please forgive me if I did, but I wanted to add something about the MS-8's L7 format. I am under the impression from Andy that the algorithm being used in this DSP is completely proprietary and is specifically designed and developed for a car environment. Unlike all of the other surround formats currently out there and available. So, unless I am unware or ignorant to something, which maybe well be, I don't think you would be able to replicate this aspect with a carpc.

Also, we all know that almost everything that is done my the MS-8 can be and has been done by old tried and tried and true methods of manual tuning, but where one might take days and this takes 10 min to get to the same level, without experience and expertise, is not even comparable. Andy has competed for years and has tuned for a long time and Biggs does not really need introduction and if they say that something is unequaled, then I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. Besides, Biggs already competed and won 1st is SQ with an inferior and incomplete prototype. Thats saying something, don't you think?


----------



## Dillyyo

Abmolech said:


> http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum//showthread.php?t=65668
> 
> 
> 
> We have an 8 channel output.
> 
> Can ANYBODY explain to me how your going to be to do a Logic7 setup with this, using an active setup?
> 
> Clue
> Three way front
> Two way centre
> Two way rear
> two way sides
> Sub
> 
> 
> I count 17 channels required.
> 
> For most of you, your only going to be able to use this for a two channel stereo(?) front.
> 
> It is therefore going up against the incumbents.
> 
> All that work on the MS-8 is going for Logic7 to work in a car. It is a MAJOR upgrade over two channel.
> 
> Point
> It is designed for a "standard car setup". IE factory positions and passive crossovers. If this floats your boat, your in the wrong site.


Are you insinuating that true car audiophiles ONLY use active crossovers?! I didn't know this forum was so elitist that if I wanted to use an active & passive system combined, I shouldn't venture over here! Just like any other piece of processing or audio equipment I have come across over the years, they all have their limitations. Any logical person implementing a system and wanting to use something like the MS-8, can figure out how to implement a system while incorporating its sought after functions. 

Since the MS-8 has signal summing and input frequency flattening, I assume that the component is marketed to people who are seeking answers to their OEM HU integrations, but still would like more flexibility than what the other current processors offer. I just hope I'm not stigmatized around here since I want to drop my next system into my car within the stock locations!


----------



## Ge0

Dillyyo said:


> Since the MS-8 has signal summing and input frequency flattening, I assume that the component is marketed to people who are seeking answers to their OEM HU integrations, but still would like more flexibility than what the other current processors offer. I just hope I'm not stigmatized around here since I want to drop my next system into my car within the stock locations!


I have to admit. I'm looking for a solution (regardless of effort or cost) that will give me sonic nirvana using stock head unit and some speaker locations. I feel like a minority. 

My vehicle is my daily driver. I want to keep the stock look as much as possible. Adding fiberglass structures and alternate speaker locations would go against my primary objective in most instances.

I don't know if ANY processing option is available today to do this. You need to either go against the laws of physics (doomed) or find a way to manipulate them to accheive your goal.

Ge0


----------



## DonovanM

It would work perfectly for me.

2-way front L/R
1-way center
1 way rear L/R
1 way sub

Homemade passive crossovers for center and rears (which will have mid & tweet right next to each other) and that's a wrap.

I wonder if 2 MS-8's could be strapped together for those with more complicated setups...


----------



## Dillyyo

Ge0 said:


> I have to admit. I'm looking for a solution (regardless of effort or cost) that will give me sonic nirvana using stock head unit and some speaker locations. I feel like a minority.
> 
> My vehicle is my daily driver. I want to keep the stock look as much as possible. Adding fiberglass structures and alternate speaker locations would go against my primary objective in most instances.
> 
> I don't know if ANY processing option is available today to do this. You need to either go against the laws of physics (doomed) or find a way to manipulate them to accheive your goal.
> 
> Ge0



Thats the route I am going. I use to and still would, with a different vehicle, go the physical modification route, but for now I am just looking for 3 way fronts dropped in and no front stage modifications. The G37 has all of the ideal stock locations with their Bose premium system and if I can shoe horn a bigger mid channel speaker in the center when the MS-8 comes out, I should be golden......if the MS-8 is all its cracked up to be. Which I am gathering from Andy, it could very well be.

I have always been of the less DSP'ing the better, but it seems with the current OEM limitations, I have started searching for the DSP nirvana.


----------



## Ge0

Dillyyo said:


> Maybe I missed something in this thread and please forgive me if I did, but I wanted to add something about the MS-8's L7 format. I am under the impression from Andy that the algorithm being used in this DSP is completely proprietary and is specifically designed and developed for a car environment. Unlike all of the other surround formats currently out there and available. So, unless I am unware or ignorant to something, which maybe well be, I don't think you would be able to replicate this aspect with a carpc.
> 
> Also, we all know that almost everything that is done my the MS-8 can be and has been done by old tried and tried and true methods of manual tuning, but where one might take days and this takes 10 min to get to the same level, without experience and expertise, is not even comparable. Andy has competed for years and has tuned for a long time and Biggs does not really need introduction and if they say that something is unequaled, then I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. Besides, Biggs already competed and won 1st is SQ with an inferior and incomplete prototype. Thats saying something, don't you think?


Specifically designed for the car environment? Hmm. That's a bit short citied. I believe JBL has taken the logic 7 concept along with room correction and ADAPTED it for car use. I wish them the best of luck in doing so. However, I'd bet my ass (need to loose some of it anyway) that alternate surround methods can also be tweaked for car use. This can be acchieved through PC. Room correction is already available for PC (Audiolense, etc...). Don't discount them because nobody has implemented them in a car yet. Hell, if JBL had this mentality, the MS-8 would never have been developed.

I agree that those like Andy and Gary have pushed technology and methods available to the limit. They have done the best with what they have. However, we are talking about a whole new set of tools here. New rules apply. I find some are more content in sticking with what they know will work and living with its limitations than trying out something new.

Ge0


----------



## Ge0

Dillyyo said:


> Thats the route I am going. I use to and still would, with a different vehicle, go the physical modification route, but for now I am just looking for 3 way fronts dropped in and no front stage modifications. The G37 has all of the ideal stock locations with their Bose premium system and if I can shoe horn a bigger mid channel speaker in the center when the MS-8 comes out, I should be golden......if the MS-8 is all its cracked up to be. Which I am gathering from Andy, it could very well be.
> 
> I have always been of the less DSP'ing the better, but it seems with the current OEM limitations, I have started searching for the DSP nirvana.


You're stuck with a vehicle you don't want to modify significantly to achieve your goal. Most variables are bound (source, speaker locations, etc.). I believe the only way to success is signal manipulation. This is my boat. Jumping aboard?

Ge0


----------



## Dillyyo

DonovanM said:


> It would work perfectly for me.
> 
> 2-way front L/R
> 1-way center
> 1 way rear L/R
> 1 way sub
> 
> Homemade passive crossovers for center and rears (which will have mid & tweet right next to each other) and that's a wrap.
> 
> I wonder if 2 MS-8's could be strapped together for those with more complicated setups...


Why would you need passive crossovers for the center and sub channel?! AFAIK each channel has a crossover option of HP, LP or BP. All 8 channels can be run actively. I will be running my with 3 way front, 1 way center and 1 way sub. I might just end up running the tweets and midrange with a passive and actively LP the midrange with the MS-8, run the midbasses, center, sub and rear sides actively through the MS-8 and get a 5.1 system out of it. Decisions decisions!


----------



## Dillyyo

Ge0 said:


> Specifically designed for the car environment? Hmm. That's a bit short citied. I believe JBL has taken the logic 7 concept along with room correction and ADAPTED it for car use. I wish them the best of luck in doing so. However, I'd bet my ass (need to loose some of it anyway) that alternate surround methods can also be tweaked for car use. This can be acchieved through PC. Room correction is already available for PC (Audiolense, etc...). Don't discount them because nobody has implemented them in a car yet. Hell, if JBL had this mentality, the MS-8 would never have been developed.
> 
> I agree that those like Andy and Gary have pushed technology and methods available to the limit. They have done the best with what they have. However, we are talking about a whole new set of tools here. New rules apply. I find some are more content in sticking with what they know will work and living with its limitations than trying out something new.
> 
> Ge0


I hear ya with the room correction, but I am not knowledgeable to develop any type of variance of current surround formats! Even though there are current PC based softwares for room correction, I have no idea of the extent of manipulations within those programs. Is it developed to be able to adjust or compensate for an environment with such atypical structures such as a car? From what Andy has lead me to believe, there is no current such software. And considering that Harmon is the developer of L7 and with their extensive resources, I assume that even if an attempted developing was done third party, that this might just be the creme' le la creme. As far as I know, all other currently used in-car surround formats are formatted just as the originals were.


----------



## Dillyyo

Ge0 said:


> You're stuck with a vehicle you don't want to modify significantly to achieve your goal. Most variables are bound (source, speaker locations, etc.). I believe the only way to success is signal manipulation. This is my boat. Jumping aboard?
> 
> Ge0




Pffftttt....I was on board once I got this car and started to get back into the game, after a 6+ year layoff


----------



## LastResort

Ge0 said:


> I have to admit. I'm looking for a solution (regardless of effort or cost) that will give me sonic nirvana using stock head unit and some speaker locations. I feel like a minority.


I'm with you, but I've also got a limit on cost.  But I'm willing to spend the money where necessary. I also realize that I will probably be getting a headunit in the future, which is why the 3sixty.2 is compelling to me; It's expandable where the Alpine h701 is not nearly so.....


----------



## t3sn4f2

Dillyyo said:


> Why would you need passive crossovers for the center and sub channel?! AFAIK each channel has a crossover option of HP, LP or BP. All 8 channels can be run actively. I will be running my with 3 way front, 1 way center and 1 way sub. I might just end up running the tweets and midrange with a passive and actively LP the midrange with the MS-8, run the midbasses, center, sub and rear sides actively through the MS-8 and get a 5.1 system out of it. Decisions decisions!


He would not have a free channel for an active 2 way center.


----------



## Dillyyo

t3sn4f2 said:


> He would not have a free channel for an active 2 way center.


I don't see in his post where he states a 2 way center. For simplicity sake, I think I would just go as good and big of a coaxial as I could anyways.


----------



## Ge0

LastResort said:


> I'm with you, but I've also got a limit on cost.  But I'm willing to spend the money where necessary. I also realize that I will probably be getting a headunit in the future, which is why the 3sixty.2 is compelling to me; It's expandable where the Alpine h701 is not nearly so.....


When I said "regardless of cost" that was wishful thinking. I'm constrained to a budget as well. 

If you can set a system design goal and identify what you need to buy to achieve that goal, you're less likely to waste money. I'm still in the process of identifying what I need.

Ge0


----------



## t3sn4f2

Dillyyo said:


> I don't see in his post where he states a 2 way center. For simplicity sake, I think I would just go as good and big of a coaxial as I could anyways.


_


DonovanM said:



It would work perfectly for me.

2-way front L/R
1-way center
1 way rear L/R
1 way sub
*
Homemade passive crossovers for center* and rears *(which will have mid & tweet right next to each other)* and that's a wrap.

I wonder if 2 MS-8's could be strapped together for those with more complicated setups...

Click to expand...

_


Dillyyo said:


> Why would you need passive crossovers for the center and sub channel?! AFAIK each channel has a crossover option of HP, LP or BP. All 8 channels can be run actively.


1 way from MS-8 but going to 2 drivers.


----------



## t3sn4f2

I think I would go 2 way active LCR+sub and thats that.


----------



## Weightless

This is looking like it might actually make it to the shelves this year.  

I would love to run this as a 3-way L/R, coax or full range for center and a sub.

It would be nice if they made an expansion module for it though...maybe to run 3-way L/R, 2-way center, rears and a sub...but I am sure that is asking too much.


----------



## Dillyyo

Weightless said:


> This is looking like it might actually make it to the shelves this year.
> 
> I would love to run this as a 3-way L/R, coax or full range for center and a sub.
> 
> It would be nice if they made an expansion module for it though...maybe to run 3-way L/R, 2-way center, rears and a sub...but I am sure that is asking too much.



Please, 8 channels has taken them about 1.5 years and counting........don't throw any wrenches into the mix until its out!


----------



## Weightless

Yeah, I guess just getting the product first would be nice.


----------



## t3sn4f2

http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=65671&page=6

"Starting on packaging and the owner's manual today. Getting closer...
__________________
Andy Wehmeyer
Product Marketing Manager
Harman Consumer Group
Mobile Systems Division"


----------



## OldOneEye

t3sn4f2 said:


> http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=65671&page=6
> 
> "Starting on packaging and the owner's manual today. Getting closer...
> __________________
> Andy Wehmeyer
> Product Marketing Manager
> Harman Consumer Group
> Mobile Systems Division"



Not sure that means much. To design it, they had to have written a technical specifications manual anyway months (well, at this point years) ago. They could have probably written an owners manual a long time before product can ship.

Juan


----------



## Daishi

This thing better come out soon


----------



## Dillyyo

t3sn4f2 said:


> http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=65671&page=6
> 
> "Starting on packaging and the owner's manual today. Getting closer...
> __________________
> Andy Wehmeyer
> Product Marketing Manager
> Harman Consumer Group
> Mobile Systems Division"


NICE!! I hope its all its cracked up to be. Only thing is WHY 8 channels and not 10?!?!


----------



## LastResort

OldOneEye said:


> They could have probably written an owners manual a long time before product can ship.


You'd be surprised.


----------



## t3sn4f2

OldOneEye said:


> Not sure that means much. To design it, they had to have written a technical specifications manual anyway months (well, at this point years) ago. They could have probably written an owners manual a long time before product can ship.
> 
> Juan


I just take it as another sign it _will_ eventually come out.


----------



## Daishi

Yeah, my company makes VERY expensive VERY specific electronic devices used in the scientific field, and I can tell you for a fact that the owners manual is the LAST thing they do. Sometimes it's done after the first couple of instruments have been sold LOL.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Daishi said:


> Yeah, my company makes VERY expensive VERY specific electronic devices used in the scientific field, and I can tell you for a fact that the owners manual is the LAST thing they do. Sometimes it's done after the first couple of instruments have been sold LOL.


Can't wait to read it. Then again.......JBL manuals suck @$$.


----------



## Daishi

Trust me you don't want to read it. Written usually by French Canadians and they don't really care that their english isn't very good


----------



## kkant

t3sn4f2 said:


> http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=65671&page=6
> 
> "Starting on packaging and the owner's manual today. Getting closer...
> __________________
> Andy Wehmeyer
> Product Marketing Manager
> Harman Consumer Group
> Mobile Systems Division"


K i c k a s s.


----------



## monkeyboy

I emailed Andy just this week. From what he has told me, it will be out by the end of summer. That is what I am shooting for.


----------



## kkant

End of summer? For a user manual and some boxes? Hmm...

If that's true, something tells me they're not yet actually finished with the MS-8 itself.


----------



## jay

kkant said:


> End of summer? For a user manual and some boxes? Hmm...
> 
> If that's true, something tells me they're not yet actually finished with the MS-8 itself.


4-5 months...it's a bit long but doesn't seem that unreasonable, depending on where they'll be sourcing the printing/packaging/etc. fwiw, i don't remember them saying user manual and boxes are all that's left...it's simply what they're working on at this point.


----------



## LastResort

After this amount of time, I would assume they are picking a very outside date. What's two more months after 2 years?


----------



## monkeyboy

I know a while back Andy said he was going to quit making assumptions and shoot for a worst case date. He was tired of having to tell us it was delayed.


----------



## kkant

Well, I sure hope so. We'll see.


----------



## sprtwin1

Andy (or anyone who knows the answer), I have a couple of quick questions for you. 

1) Currently, I plan on installing a set of polk's SR6500 in my car in just a few weeks. However, I have read before that the speaker does not make the system good, rather the tuning. So, with such a good processor/automatic tuner, would such great speakers lose their advantage over middle-of-the-range speakers? If they would lose their advantage, how "good" of a speaker would be required for optimal sound quality?

2) With this new processor, I hear a lot of talk about a center channel. Is there any advantage to a center channel besides giving the other passengers an accurate sound stage?

3) What type of speaker should the center channel be, a full range speaker, a tweeter, or a component set?

4) Assuming the answer to question #1 is better speakers are still advantageous, does the same apply to the center channel? In other words, does the center channel need to be an equivalent speaker to the L and R speakers, or can it be treated like rear fill in the sense that just an decent speaker is required?

Thanks so much. I look forward to owning a MS-8 in the near future!


----------



## OldOneEye

1. Average speaker in a great spot will probably do better than a great speaker in a poor spot. After that, poor tuning can cause issues as well (imagine well prepared Filet Mignon.... with ketchup on top... or no seasoning at all). Good ingredients, plus good location plus good preparation.

2 + 3. Depends, the above still applies. Spectrally you probably want to run similar speakers to the ones you already have in the left and right location, if not the same (sometimes compromises are made or changes made because of how the speaker will be located... but if you notice, lots of systems for home theater have 3 fronts or all 5 speakers (in a 5.1 system) the same. That might create a problem in most cars (since people usually go with as big as will fit in the doors/kickpanels/dash for left and right) and finding "extra" space in the dash might be a problem. 

Juan


----------



## Ge0

sprtwin1 said:


> Andy (or anyone who knows the answer), I have a couple of quick questions for you.
> 
> 1) Currently, I plan on installing a set of polk's SR6500 in my car in just a few weeks. However, I have read before that the speaker does not make the system good, rather the tuning. So, with such a good processor/automatic tuner, would such great speakers lose their advantage over middle-of-the-range speakers? If they would lose their advantage, how "good" of a speaker would be required for optimal sound quality?
> 
> 2) With this new processor, I hear a lot of talk about a center channel. Is there any advantage to a center channel besides giving the other passengers an accurate sound stage?
> 
> 3) What type of speaker should the center channel be, a full range speaker, a tweeter, or a component set?
> 
> 4) Assuming the answer to question #1 is better speakers are still advantageous, does the same apply to the center channel? In other words, does the center channel need to be an equivalent speaker to the L and R speakers, or can it be treated like rear fill in the sense that just an decent speaker is required?
> 
> Thanks so much. I look forward to owning a MS-8 in the near future!


I had damn near the same questions. Visit hear and read the thread in its entirety to get your answers:

http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=65668&highlight=ms-8

Ge0

Welcome fellow Detroiter!!!


----------



## t3sn4f2

OldOneEye said:


> 1. Average speaker in a great spot will probably do better than a great speaker in a poor spot. After that, poor tuning can cause issues as well (imagine well prepared Filet Mignon.... with ketchup on top... or no seasoning at all). Good ingredients, plus good location plus good preparation.
> 
> 2 + 3. Depends, the above still applies. Spectrally you probably want to run similar speakers to the ones you already have in the left and right location, if not the same (sometimes compromises are made or changes made because of how the speaker will be located... but if you notice, lots of systems for home theater have 3 fronts or all 5 speakers (in a 5.1 system) the same. That might create a problem in most cars (since people usually go with as big as will fit in the doors/kickpanels/dash for left and right) and finding "extra" space in the dash might be a problem.
> 
> Juan


Actually the rear sides and rears only need to play down to 150Hz to create the affect, Andy actually recommends it like this way instead of playing lower even if you are able to.


----------



## durwood

People are still waiting for this?

I think the $1,000,000 question to ask Andy is...































why is he building a carpc processor?


----------



## Ge0

durwood said:


> People are still waiting for this?
> 
> I think the $1,000,000 question to ask Andy is...
> why is he building a carpc processor?


Don't you have a wedding or something to worry about? Stop badgering people with CarPC propeganda .

Good Luck!!!

Ge0


----------



## durwood

LOL. Well I'm in wedding planning neck deep at home. At work I can relax and think about other things...

I thought that was a good question no? He didn't answer me but I still want to know. 

http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/car...n-t-get-auzentech-work-console-pc-tuning.html

http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/1199224-post7.html


----------



## Ge0

durwood said:


> LOL. Well I'm in wedding planning neck deep at home. At work I can relax and think about other things...
> 
> I thought that was a good question no? He didn't answer me but I still want to know.
> 
> http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/car...n-t-get-auzentech-work-console-pc-tuning.html
> 
> http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/1199224-post7.html


Guess Andy is getting sick of waiting too? Either that, or he knows that even though the MS-8 will be a powerful processor, it is fixed function. There still might be more...

Ge0


----------



## OldOneEye

Keep in mind Andy competes in sound offs (and probably has a budget to play with stuff that is out there). So he might be trying stuff for the next generation or just so he has something in the car to compete. I'm probably pretty sure he owns the Alpine system that self tunes as well as some of the other integration solutions the MS-8 competes with.

Juan


----------



## its_bacon12

Daishi said:


> Trust me you don't want to read it. Written usually by French Canadians and they don't really care that their english isn't very good


Hey now.. I'm French Canadian and I speak aboot as good as any other American Citizen. That's profiling, eh?


----------



## Daishi

LOL. It's not profiling in my company  Besides, they (my company) rib us on this side of border all the time, so we rib them back. It's all fun and games so don't get your flannel in a bunch (I am currently sitting on flannel so I have nothing against it ).

But hey, you guys get the kick ass Molson Canadian commercials so you win out in the end


----------



## 14642

Wow...another super long thread about MS-8.
I think most of the questions about the product have been answered here, thanks to someone pasting responses from the now almost dead carsound forum. Thanks for that. 
I agree that there haven't been many room correction algorithms that work well, but the one in MS-8 is a good one. There's a huge difference between room EQ in a room and room EQ in a car. Correcting response in a room with real speakers really requires two different kinds of measurements--a near field measurement of each speaker and a correction scheme for that and a second set of spatially averaged measurements for correcting room modes. In a car, we can combine this into one, since the seating positions are fixed and since the speakers are very close to the listeners (compared to a room). There's so little delay between direct sound and reflections (the time and magnitude) are so close that we hear them all as speakers. In rooms, it's important to differentiate between the two. 
Can a person do a better job of tuning than MS-8? I can and I'm sure there are a few others who can too, but MS-8 has been designed to make everyone's car sound better--people like my mom who love music but don't know anything about audio--and for installers to implement. I can do a better job than MS-8 but in order to do it I need lots of bands of parametric EQ (currently I have 176 biquads available for eq and crossover), time alignment, phase shifting parametric all pass filters, separate gain control of all speakers, Logic 7, a mic array and multiplexing mic preamp, an RTA with 1/24 octave resolution, an analyzer than can measure impulse responses and phase, and a couple of weeks.
MS-8 includes all these capabilities and does about 90% of the job in about 10 minutes. 
Regarding the debate between Car PC and MS-8: A car PC can include many if these tools all kludged together (except Logic 7). A car PC is like a basket full of groceries and MS-8 is like a great meal. 
Why am I building a car PC? 
1. Because i'm a glutton for punishment
2. Because the aux adapter I use from USA-SPEC screws with the CAN bus in the car and prevents the steering wheel track up and down button from working properly
3. Because I'm tired of having an iPod controller screen stuck to the top of my dash
4. Because Gary Biggs is building a new car with a MAC Mini as a head unit, asked me for help in figuring out how to configure it and he got me hooked.
5. This is the biggest reason: Our DSP engineers are constantly working on new algorithms to do this and that (top secret) and we need a way to evaluate and car-optimize them as VST plug-ins before they become embedded solutions for home audio.


----------



## Babs

Andy, 
If it's been asked before like a thousand times, I apologize now. 

Us Honda / Acura owners with the possibly Alpine-sourced head units that feed out to the cute digi-pioneer factory amps are looking for solutions for tapping into the four channels of differential balanced outs from the head unit (TSX and Civic Premium or Nav do this)... Some amps (JL, Rockford, etc) simply accept them with differential balanced inputs, so bypassing the factory amp isn't a problem, but not so sure about which processor will work in between. 

How about the MS-8 with line-level diff balanced signals for input?

... and NO I won't ask WHEN... When I see the MS-8 hit the shelves, then I'll know.


----------



## 14642

All inputs of MS-8 are balanced-differential--line level and speaker level.


----------



## fredridge

Andy, where can I buy it and when?


----------



## Babs

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> All inputs of MS-8 are balanced-differential--line level and speaker level.


This is excellent excellent news. Also I'm thinking it just might fit where the OEM amp is located in the center console too. Again, I won't ask "when"... I know your engineers are hard at it forever with this thing. I will let the guys over at 8thcivic know though. Mercman's harness makes getting RCA connections out of the stock head unit a snap... straight into the MS-8, then out to sub amp or full assortment of amps.

Good luck and fear not.. There is still a market for the MS-8 waiting patiently.
If only it had a digi-aux input for a USB hard drive running lossless direct to processor (hint hint).... yeeeehaw!


----------



## 14642

Babs said:


> This is excellent excellent news. Also I'm thinking it just might fit where the OEM amp is located in the center console too. Again, I won't ask "when"... I know your engineers are hard at it forever with this thing. I will let the guys over at 8thcivic know though. Mercman's harness makes getting RCA connections out of the stock head unit a snap... straight into the MS-8, then out to sub amp or full assortment of amps.
> 
> Good luck and fear not.. There is still a market for the MS-8 waiting patiently.
> If only it had a digi-aux input for a USB hard drive running lossless direct to processor (hint hint).... yeeeehaw!


Once we get this thing done, I'll see if I can get some tech support from engineering for "modders". The Aux input is attenuated and sent directly to an A/D. Seems like a no-brainer to bypass that. I'll check once these guys are finished pulling their hair out.


----------



## Babs

Eh, if the analog input sounds good (depending on the source of course.. some decent quality media player with fair dacs and post-dac stage).. like you've told me before, it's probably splitting hairs between direct digital vs analog in. It will by nice finally to one day see the MS-8 hit the streets. 

Now I have to do a little research into the new kappa's.. something different going on with those tweets, huh? (they get little love it seems but I kinda liked the old ones I had for the price in my last install). C608GTi MKII vs 60.9CS vs Perfect 6.1 ??? hmm sorry different topic for different thread. EDIT: Posed the question in a more appropriate thread HERE


----------



## TallTexan

Well according to audiojunkies article on the MS-8 this could be ready soon.

Can anyone say "group buy"? Considering there are 24 pages worth in this one thread, I'd say the interest level is fairly high. 

I wonder if later down the road, I could find a sucker who will trade the MS-8 for my RF 360.2?


----------



## Babs

That one was Dec '07... Since then I think the MS-8 had to go through a bit of "back to formula" work with the code/firmware/software/other. I wouldn't trust any expected release date except straight from Andy at this point... crossing fingers and hoping for '08 at all.


----------



## Abaddon

TallTexan said:


> I wonder if later down the road, I could find a sucker who will trade the MS-8 for my RF 360.2?


that would NEVER happen..


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy, another gain question . On the Carsounds thread you mentioned that the max 2 volt rms input sensitivity of the MS-8 would be adequate for mostly any deck even though they claim to be 4 volts. 

What if we have an actually 4 volt source (say for instance a USB DAC that is intended to drive headphones). Would I need to worry about damaging something or will the worse that will happen is that I'll clip the inputs if I happen to max the vol and have a loud track playing. I've heard from an amp designer on here that some inputs could possibly be damaged depending on their design.

It would good to have those extra 2 volts for headroom to use on low volume tracks and not have to worry about blowing something on the MS-8 if I slip on the volume with a loud track. 

If this is not an option, can a stepped attenuator or simple pre-attenuation circuit like this be used to match the output to the input (installed as close as possible to the MS-8).


----------



## 14642

Nothing will be damaged and the clipping may be inaudible anyway--especially if it happens only on transients. If you play Bass MEchanik at 4V, it'll be nasty, but turning down the volume a bit will also work. Another option is to set the max output of the source with its volume control and use MS-8's.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Nothing will be damaged and the clipping may be inaudible anyway--especially if it happens only on transients. If you play Bass MEchanik at 4V, it'll be nasty, but turning down the volume a bit will also work. Another option is to set the max output of the source with its volume control and use MS-8's.


Perfect, thanks.


----------



## 00poop6x

Why all this talk and no product?


----------



## Focused

Any ETA on this?


----------



## CobraVin

any arrival time guess?, a week, month, next year? i bought a new car and im thinking about using the bose head unit instead of my DRZ but only if i could use the ms8 with it, but i need to know aproximately how long til it comes out

ill even volunteer for beta testing


----------



## Sassmastersq

no eta on this thing... I have a feeling that it's going to be a huge dissappointment by the time it's released.


----------



## Daishi

Sassmastersq said:


> no eta on this thing... I have a feeling that it's going to be a huge dissappointment by the time it's released.


 how do you figure that?


----------



## Sassmastersq

anytime a product is delayed this long the hype overtakes the actual product and people end up with it in their hands saying "I waited 4 years for THIS??"


----------



## Daishi

Have you actually looked at the feature list? If it does 3/4 of what it is said to do it'll be on par with any other external DSP available. I fail to see your logic.


----------



## Sassmastersq

I agree, it'll be a good product, but by the time it's out you could have had an H701 for 3 years and be done with tuning. why wait for this holy grail of technology when you could have something now, and upgrade later if it's actually worth it.

I don't care when it's coming out, if it's worth it at the time it releases, and it proves to be reliable and a good value, then I might go for it, but I'm not going to sit around wondering when I can enjoy today.

ever hear of the IDone? it'll be amazing too... if it ever gets released


----------



## DS-21

Sassmastersq said:


> no eta on this thing... I have a feeling that it's going to be a huge dissappointment by the time it's released.


I doubt it. I'm actually highly impressed that Harman is taking this long (including, as I understand it, a complete code rewrite) to do it, instead of releasing an alpha-level product into the wild. I expect that I'll be buying one of these. Not for the daily driver, as it's probably better served by the simpler Alpine Audyssey MultEQ XT processor. But for the DS, it seems perfect.

Think of it another way: if it's taking _Harman_, which is to audio brain power what the US Department of Defense is to global military spending, this long to get this kind of processor right, there's a reason nobody else is taking on this kind of project.


----------



## thehatedguy

Exactly.

And having heard a prototype unit...it will be worth it. I have a feeling that I will also be sporting one of these processors when it is all said and done.


----------



## backwoods

I've cleaned out most of my car procs for this thing. Obviously the sooner the better, but it's definitly worth the wait...(as long as it is eventually released...)


----------



## Sassmastersq

it'll really suck for everyone who's waiting if it gets to the point where harman says "meh, not worth it, lets cut our losses and forget it"

I have no faith in companies who are bringing out a great product with cutting edge technology. too many have bailed, or just delayed the product until nobody cares anymore.


----------



## thehatedguy

Considering the orignal purpose of the processor is for factory integration...I doubt it would be canned. We are the niche market for this thing.


----------



## 60ndown

if it does everything (inc 4/5 way), and i can run my 880 thru it, and get one used for $300, ill take it


----------



## dkh

The release date is stretching further and further forward...

I think that this should be released soon so that the 'other' manufactures are made to pull their fingers out of where the sun don't shine and offer real alternatives rather than marketing gimmicks!


----------



## 60ndown

how hard is it for a major electronics company to build a GREAT stand alone processor nowdays?

cant be that hard?

they seem to be able to put swimming dolphins into a dash, why not a GREAT processor?


----------



## 60ndown

i say we all chip in and build it ourselves, we decide on features etc, then we all chip in oir $$ and get some company smewhere to build it for us.

how many car audio enthusiasts would buy it GLOBALLY?

im guessing 50, 000 units would sell @ $300 each

= $15,000000.


----------



## Whitebread

60ndown said:


> i say we all chip in and build it ourselves, we decide on features etc, then we all chip in oir $$ and get some company smewhere to build it for us.
> 
> how many car audio enthusiasts would buy it GLOBALLY?
> 
> im guessing 50, 000 units would sell @ $300 each
> 
> = $15,000000.


I doubt there would be 50,000 people that would buy a 300 dollar product with no BS marketing and no bling. The people with the technical understanding and audiophile tastes number in the very few. Everyone else wants easy use, simple features and lots of bass.


----------



## 60ndown

Whitebread said:


> I doubt there would be 50,000 people that would buy a 300 dollar product with no BS marketing and no bling. The people with the technical understanding and audiophile tastes number in the very few. Everyone else wants easy use, simple features and lots of bass.


i stand by my guesstimate, theres a lot of car audio fans out here, many of the spl guys are moving towards sq...L we ALL have the same issue.


TUNING.

if it was a great product (zero added noise and worked well), id bet 75% of people who have car audio as a 'hobby'

wold buy it within 18 months

das a lot of peeps.


----------



## thehatedguy

Who would you get to write the code? And how would you pay for the software part of the processor?


----------



## 60ndown

thehatedguy said:


> Who would you get to write the code? And how would you pay for the software part of the processor?


id ask the thoughts and help of all the smart car audio guys, like yourself, and many others, once we agreed on the basics (4 way, ta, parametric etc etc) we could allocate different components of getting the thing designed/built to those that knew those areas best.

prolly involve some legal paperwork OR test trust and friendship?

anyone that wants to be involved to donate as much $$ as they can.

if we can put the design/ideas/concept together for $7000, and contact some 'electronics' build house for a bid on a run of 3000 units? 

people involved in the design get paid typical design rates for their work ($75 an hour)? 

everyone else gets a % of PROFIT according to how much $$ they invested.

no-one gets a free unit.

naive maybe, but i believe if 3 or 5 good guys decided to try this, and were backed financially by 140 others, and the product was _*GREAT*_, 


maybe..just maybe alpine jbl, pioneer and audio control may have a new competitior? i suggest (diymapwnsjou as the company name )

no reason the first run couldnt be available for christmas, no doubt any bs/greed/ego and the project would fail.


worst case senario? we sell em on e bay @ $130 each for a total loss of $0.


----------



## capnxtreme

This thread isn't evidence enough that it ain't that easy to design something that complex?



> no reason the first run couldnt be available for christmas


wat



> worst case senario? we sell em on e bay @ $130 each for a total loss of $0.


You're not a businessman, are you?

Sorry to be so negative. I just don't comprehend where you are pulling these #'s from. I really like where you're coming from, but I don't think you're being realistic, to say the least.


----------



## 60ndown

capnxtreme said:


> This thread isn't evidence enough that it ain't that easy to design something that complex?
> 
> 
> 
> wat
> 
> 
> 
> You're not a businessman, are you?
> 
> Sorry to be so negative. I just don't comprehend where you are pulling these ideas from.


my optomistic ass


----------



## capnxtreme

OK.  It is a sweet idea.

I just doubt that 3 guys in a garage could do it, if Harman can't.

And I think the worst case scenario would be wasting a LOT more money that that, a ton of valuable people's time, and having nothing to show for it whatsoever.


----------



## 60ndown

capnxtreme said:


> OK.  It is a sweet idea.
> 
> I just doubt that 3 guys in a garage could do it, if Harman can't.
> 
> And I think the worst case scenario would be wasting a LOT more money that that, a ton of valuable people's time, and having nothing to show for it whatsoever.


some of the detail some people go into here about various things, leaves me to believe the knowledge is right here, k.i.s.s. just a quality processor. 

if we stay away from anything STUPID AND UNESSESARY ....7.1 anyone?

actually i bet if we gave whiterabbit $5000 and 2 weeks off his regular job he could do most of it on his own


----------



## 60ndown

keeping the tech talk to a minimum, what does the jbl unit do that this doesnt

http://www.zapco.com/prod/DC_Ref/DSP_DRC_Frame.htm


----------



## azngotskills

factory integration and auto-tuning to name a few and keep it simple


----------



## 60ndown

azngotskills said:


> factory integration and auto-tuning to name a few and keep it simple


so if we add a l.o.c and our ears all thing are equal?


----------



## capnxtreme

Um, no?


----------



## azngotskills

60ndown said:


> so if we add a l.o.c and our ears all thing are equal?


Well not exactly....if you can flatten all factory EQ in all types of vehicles that is used to compensate for the OEM system acoustics and driver locations to make a flat signal to start out with. Then have the know how and ears to tune then i guess you can say yes. 

I would say its not the absolute best thing in the world, but it does make it convenient for the mass market and those who are not willing to go all out in DSP with multiple highend processors. Also it does 5.1 if that floats your boat. Its not for everyone, but i think it would be useful for the majority compared to what is commercially available now especially how newer cars have their HUs integrated into other factory components


----------



## thehatedguy

JBL will do 4 way crossovers. Then there is the Logic 7 decoding. Then there are all of the EQ filters. Then there is the frequency dependent phase adjustments. Then there is the built in 8 channels of amplification if you want to use it.

And it does this on it's own from the programming done at Harmon. The guys at Harmon have learned a few things about speakers, speaker performance, and how to make things work in a car.

When you have the bank account that Harmon has, you can do pretty incredible stuff.


----------



## CobraVin

so any reliable guess as to the release date???


----------



## Babs

The MS-8 is also less than half the DSP6 package at retail.. Not knocking the zapco piece though... looks like a serious processor. It's like comparing a really good $600 home receiver (1-box solution) to a $1400 pre/pro separate meant for a high end setup. The big difference is probably what comes out of the speaker drivers. 

Zapco gear is for that 1% of the 1% market of guys that have a higher point of diminishing returns. The MS-8 will let the average car-owner add big amps and auto-tuning without ripping up the proprietary dash or integrated oem head unit. 

I fear H Intl might have missed the boat though.. The H650, 360's and other solutions along with a bump in economy and luxury spending are making it's feasibility for success a throw of the dice.


----------



## SQCherokee

I'm thinking that no one will be able to afford to own a car anymore by the time it comes out.  

didn't I read some were that gary biggs put one in a newer BMW and said that with just the MS-8 it sounded almost as good if not better than the regal?


----------



## DS-21

60ndown said:


> keeping the tech talk to a minimum, what does the jbl unit do that this doesnt
> 
> http://www.zapco.com/prod/DC_Ref/DSP_DRC_Frame.htm


Others have mentioned the differences, which are so gigantic and profound as to put the two boxes in entirely different leagues.

But one thing I think is funny is that the Zapco processor is barely different from what Harman offers in many of their pro audio products under the "HiQ" name, such as the Crown XTi-series pro amps. (The Zapcos do have 4 more parametric bands per channel, but I didn't see any shelf filters on their stuff so let's say it has 2 more bands.)

Hey Andy, how about putting that DSP into some of your car amps? 



Babs said:


> I fear H Intl might have missed the boat though.. The H650, 360's and other solutions along with a bump in economy and luxury spending are making it's feasibility for success a throw of the dice.


I'm not sure. The H650 is a very different beast. It only offers 2.1ch of processing, for one thing, and Audyssey takes more of an Apple-style approach (you will do things our way and you will like it!) than Harman traditionally does. The MS8, from what I've read, does a whole lot more stuff, and the one-box approach (maybe 2 boxes with a sub amp) is enormously appealing if the box can be kept to a reasonable size. The 360 lacks the automated processes and is also only 2.1, so it's more of a niche thing even if it ends up being cheaper.

I think they can all find a niche. The 360 is good for people who fancy themselves too advanced for automated processes, and it probably has the best control scheme with the PalmOS bluetooth software that doesn't require the smart user to corrupt her/his Mac with Parallels or another emulator. The H650 is for people with simpler systems. The MS8 is for people who want the most advanced processing possible, either have or are willing to fab speaker locations to make it happen, and are intelligent enough to not obsess

Myself, I could see myself owning both the MS8 and H650, in different cars and for different installs. Unless the price is so compelling as to make it a no-brainer, the MS8 seems over-complicated for the Miata, and the H650's 2-channel Audyssey MultEQ XT implementation just right. (At this point, I think I actually prefer Audyssey's best work to Harman's - Lexicon's - for home room-EQ, though the Lexicon stuff offers so many options that it can be bewildering even to someone who knows what he's doing.) For the DS, the MS8 seems to make an awful lot of sense.


----------



## Dillyyo

In simple terms, the MS-8 does it all for you and the DSP6 leaves it for you to do.


----------



## Vash

flame suit on anyone know whats the lastest update on ETA? Im hurtin for a processor at the moment.


----------



## aboof

I already have a fully-aftermarket system, but I'm thinking about going active, and have zero tuning skills. I was really attracted to the Imprint H100 stuff because of this, but I want to use a non-Alpine HU for nav and other various features. Is this the thing for me, or is it really just mainly for people who want to keep their OEM interface or want surround sound or whatever? If I'm already fully-aftermarket and will be running a simple 2-way front or 3-way front + sub setup, should I be looking somewhere else? I'm basically looking for something that will take care of all the crossover, EQ, TA, phase stuff for me.

And since I'd need some kind of crossover/EQ hardware anyway, this thing makes sense right, since the HUs I'm looking at only have very basic functionality seeing as how they're primariy nav/media devices, not SQ devices.

What functionality would I be giving up or what caveats would there be to using the HU's volume controls and not the MS8's - this is pretty much a requirement for me. I can hardly even stand using volume controls on a touch screen or with up/down buttons, let alone a remote. I really want a volume knob. Since I'll be using an aftermarket HU anyway, I'm going to assume (maybe a mistake) that it won't do the thing of different EQ at different volume levels. If that's the case, is there any downside at all to using the HU's volume and not the MS8's?

I'm picturing that I run a single set of RCAs from the HU's front-channel pre-out to the MS8. Then (say 2 way front + sub) I run three sets of RCAs from the MS8 to my amps. That's it (aside from power, ground, and turn-on), right?

By the way, I wish the carputer stuff had been in another thread, since I'm really interested in that, too. It's funny, I've been taking apart and putting back together PCs since I was a kid and I've earned a living doing shocking things to servers worth over a million dollars each, but I'm scared ****less to try to get into the doors on my RSX. I seem the polar opposite of many in this thread. I think the chief advantage of a carputer (never having used one or even being remotely up to date on what they're doing) is that's it's a blank slate - install whatever software you want, configure it however you want. The killer feature for me would be to sit down in the car in the morning and via wifi, download new albums into the carputer from the computers in my apartment, instead of forgetting over and over to bring the mp3 player out of the car, into the apartment, sync it, and bring it back to the car, when I want to get some new albums into the car.

Also, from reading npdang's review of the H650 and then reading this, the H650 seems kind of clumsy in that you can vary from pretty bad to pretty good results depending just on where you put the mics, and with very little user control over the process other than that. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it seems like a step back - instead of having all kinds of directed control (EQs, crossovers), now I go to just trying various locations for the microphone until it sounds good? I like the idea of having control over the target curve, but having a processor take care of getting me there.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Hey Andy, is the MS-8 remote control signal compatible with a PAC steering wheel interface? Can it learn the volume up/down signal from the remote?

How about a USB-UIRT (Universal Infrared Receiver/Transmitter), to be able to send the MS-8 volume up/down commands through girder from a frontend like Centrafuse instead of sending the commands to the OS digital volume control.


----------



## 14642

MS-8 is a USB device not a host. It's updatable via PC through the USB, but it won't control a device. 

The remote is RF, not IR. You could bury the remote in the wheel and splice the buttons. Or...you could just use the factory volume control and save yourself the hassle.


----------



## CobraVin

for the love of God Andy WHEN !!!
seriously though, even just an approximate eta would help


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> _MS-8 is a USB device not a host. It's updatable via PC through the USB, but it won't control a device._
> 
> The remote is RF, not IR. You could bury the remote in the wheel and splice the buttons. Or...you could just use the factory volume control and save yourself the hassle.


Thanks Andy. 

By the way, the USB-UIRT device is used to transmit and receive learned exterior IR remote functions and then triggering them using PC software functions (basically a learning remote for the PC). The MS-8 USB port would not come into play with this.

I was hoping to have the volume up/down commands from the front end reassigned to instead of sending the commands to the OS to raise and lower volume it would send them to the IR transmitter and make the MS-8 the master volume control.

I guess the only way to do it now is using a fusion brain and hardwire it to the MS-8 remote so it can trigger volume that way. Then have the PAC device send its IR signal through the USB-UIRT to the front end and then have the front end send it to the fusion brain and so on.

Why not just use the OS volume control? Resolution is there but so is zipper noise.


----------



## Babs

hehehehe...  Geeks!! 

You need one of these I'll bet...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5125780462773187994


----------



## t3sn4f2

Babs said:


> hehehehe...  Geeks!!
> 
> You need one of these I'll bet...
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5125780462773187994


I'll pass, that's an older model already


----------



## Abaddon

Monthly update bump.


----------



## kkant

Seconded.


----------



## 14642

The good news is that we have now added another code-writer to the project. He's done a bunch of work on Lexicon processors, so we're making some new progress.


----------



## AWC

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The good news is that we have now added another code-writer to the project. He's done a bunch of work on Lexicon processors, so we're making some new progress.


I remember a while back hearin that you may have a solution to our optical input desires. Will that still be the case?


----------



## 14642

The preamps feed the A/D converters directly. It should be no trouble to feed a 48k digital signal to the DSP. When we get closer, I'll dig around a bit more.


----------



## AWC

awesome. are you suggesting that a SPDIF is more likely? MMMMM Nakamichi here I come...


----------



## 14642

We won't be adding any additional connectors. If anything, I'll make some kind of DIY mod instructions available.


----------



## Babs

Hi Andy,
It's good news the ms-8 skunk works hasn't disbanded.  I'm just amazed at all the delays you poor guys have had with the thing. It's hard to sell a rumor huh.


----------



## AWC

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> We won't be adding any additional connectors. If anything, I'll make some kind of DIY mod instructions available.


ooooDIY mods...even better...


----------



## kkant

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The good news is that we have now added another code-writer to the project. He's done a bunch of work on Lexicon processors, so we're making some new progress.


Cool. Is Fall 08 still looking like a possibility?


----------



## 14642

I'm expecting an update by the end of next week with some real dates. I'll update as soon as I know. 

I'm really sorry about these delays and we really appreciate your patience...OK...off to kick the beehive.


----------



## Sassmastersq

This thing is like america's hopes for a decent president... maybe 08, more like 2012


----------



## kkant

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm expecting an update by the end of next week with some real dates. I'll update as soon as I know.
> 
> I'm really sorry about these delays and we really appreciate your patience...OK...off to kick the beehive.


Cool, thanks in advance for the update Andy.


----------



## Babs

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm expecting an update by the end of next week with some real dates. I'll update as soon as I know.
> 
> I'm really sorry about these delays and we really appreciate your patience...OK...off to kick the beehive.


.. I'm just pleased the project wasn't scrubbed. Thanks Andy.. Honestly I'd like to see also some more threads about your (H group) other products in here as well.  You mentioned balanced capable inputs on JBL and Infinity amps for example. 08 Si Sedan here with diff-balanced.. I'm the guy over at ECA that mentioned it.


----------



## 14642

Babs said:


> .. I'm just pleased the project wasn't scrubbed. Thanks Andy.. Honestly I'd like to see also some more threads about your (H group) other products in here as well.  You mentioned balanced capable inputs on JBL and Infinity amps for example. 08 Si Sedan here with diff-balanced.. I'm the guy over at ECA that mentioned it.


All JBL and Infinity amps include differential inputs! 

I'll have some news about some additional new products in a month or two...stay tuned...but I'm not going to make another mistake like MS-8. We let the cat out o the bag too early and underestimated the project.


----------



## Babs

Very Good news! Don't know how similar the two branded car-amps are, reading here and there that they're the same just in different clothing, etc.. I won't speculate though I'd bet they at the very least share design. I'll searchy as it's outside the scope of the thread here though.  Thanks Andy.


----------



## monkeyboy

Thanks for the update Andy.


----------



## 14642

They're both Class AB full range amps and ClassD subwoofer amps all with analog filtering. At some level, one could say that all class AB amps are the same, but that wouldn't be accurate. They're similar, but not the same.


----------



## sundownz

I want one of these whenever they are completed


----------



## kskywr

Any updates on this?


----------



## kkant

Yeah.


----------



## 14642

Sorry guys and gals. I've been lazy in posting updates here (and on Carsound). Someone over there asked if it was dead.

It's not dead. It's on life support. We're working on it, but DSP resources are limited. We're actively trying to hire more because there are other DSP projects that are lagging too. Sorry for the delay, but it's gonna be great when it's finally available.

Believe me, I want one as badly or worse than the rest of you because EVERYONE in my building wants one and my fiancee' does too.


----------



## tspence73

Yeah, me too.  Where's mine?


----------



## WolfSong

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sorry guys and gals. I've been lazy in posting updates here (and on Carsound). Someone over there asked if it was dead.
> 
> It's not dead. It's on life support. We're working on it, but DSP resources are limited. We're actively trying to hire more because there are other DSP projects that are lagging too. Sorry for the delay, but it's gonna be great when it's finally available.
> 
> Believe me, I want one as badly or worse than the rest of you because EVERYONE in my building wants one and my fiancee' does too.


I wish I had some decent DSP experience I could offer. 
Keep us posted Andy. I'd love to Beta test one of these too.


----------



## Grim0013

If this thing delivers as advertised and is available some day, I am totally building a system around it in my Grand National. Which leads to a question about center channels... 

Is it practical/worthwhile to have the left and right fronts running, say...100W and be able to get good results from a center chan. running off of the 20W coming out of the MS-8? I'm really curious about this as the need (or lack thereof) for another amplifier channel to run the center is something of a break-point as to my amp setup. The idea of a balanced soundstage for both driver and passenger is appealing to me.

I've also been kicking around another (maybe bad) idea about doing something similar with midbass. What about using a low powered mid-bass in a "reinforcing" role? Like, rather than have a distinct cut between the midbass and midrange, tune the midrange and sub closer together using the low-powered midbass to sort of help smooth the transition by adding some extra db in the 80 - 200 range, but blended with the midrange more than one would typically do in a 4-way active setup. This would also mean less "violent bass air" bouncing about in my 21 year-old doors. Like, maybe something that would perform decently well with say, 20w in a very small sealed enclosure. Maybe a fiberglass replica of the factory speaker pods mounted on the doors... Anything that potentially lets me get away with more deadening is of much interest to me, as the car is also meant to be very fast; in other words, I don't want to add any more weight than I have to.

I really am looking forward to the potential of this product and am kicking around a lot of ideas trying to come up with the sound I want, given the compromises I need to make. (namely weight) 

Thanks for all the info in here and in advance for anything more.

Oh, and BUMP!


----------



## 14642

I don't recommend either of your ideas.

first, in any system that uses some active center channel processing, whether it's discreet or a matrix or any other extraction method, the center channel becomes the primary front speaker. Most of the music in popular recordings is placed in the center and it needs to be able to play as loudly as the rest of the front speakers and hopefully with the same or similar frequency response. 

Midbass speakers tend to be less efficient than midrange and tweeters and always need more power. Plus, if you look at the frequency distribution in most popular music, you'll find far less high frequency info than low frequency info. The midbass frequencies are pretty critical and that would be a nasty place to run out of power.

My suggestion? Use plenty of power on the fronts and use the on-board power for the sides and rear. 

20 watts and a small sealed enclosure dn't go together for midbass. You'd be better off installing a seriously efficient instrument speaker and crossing it over with a steep slope at 70 or 80Hz. If you have 5" or 6" speakers in the front, don't bother with a separate midbass.


----------



## donkeypunch22

Andy, work the magic and get this thing out!

PS- But don't rush it and do what Pioneer did with the Avic F series, and kick out a gliched product just to get it to market.

PPS- Thanks for all your hard work, and keeping us posted!


----------



## quality_sound

I'm not quite understanding what the hold up is. Other than speaker level inputs it doesn't do anything the 730 or 701 don't do. The DSP programming shouldn't be a big deal. Or am I missing something?


----------



## tspence73

From what I've read there is a working prototype as far back as mid-late 2007. So, is this a factory re-tooling issue to support mass production?


----------



## t3sn4f2

quality_sound said:


> I'm not quite understanding what the hold up is. Other than speaker level inputs it doesn't do anything the 730 or 701 don't do. The DSP programming shouldn't be a big deal. Or am I missing something?


http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=65668

Seems to be a lot more there then just speaker level inputs.


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=65668
> 
> Seems to be a lot more there then just speaker level inputs.


Right. Thanks.


----------



## Grim0013

tspence73 said:


> From what I've read there is a working prototype as far back as mid-late 2007. So, is this a factory re-tooling issue to support mass production?


On a device with the capabilities they are cramming into this thing, you either need a lot of time or a lot of programmers and engineers if you want to quickly move from prototype to production. It sounds like they don't have the programmers. Sure, they had it working a year ago, but I bet there were a lot of bugs that a polished release product should not have. While I suppose it would be possible to patch the firmware or whatever, I don't think it is something that anyone wants to have to do.


Andy,
First, thanks for addressing my questions. And quickly at that. Good to know you're still with us. I defiantly understand what you're saying about the center. I really am having a hard time figuring out to to get something like 5.25" components that can handle 100+ watts into the center of a Grand National though. The passenger may just be ****ed. As to the midbass idea, I think you're right, I should be ok. I'll worry about potentially adding midbass after I get Front, Rear/Side and Sub handled.

Speaking of Side/Rear, I'm going infinite baffle on the sub(s) (haven't decided on one or two 15"s yet). So, the rear deck is out, leaving the area alongside the rear passenger area as the best/easiest option. I think I remember you saying having one or the other wasn't bad, but I don't recall how it should be set up. If the speakers are in the Side AND the Rear, what output should I be using for them on the MS-8? Side or Rear? (Please see the second pic I've included. It shows the area I am talking about pretty well.)

I hope this this is ready by March. Should have the transmission fixed up, the methanol tank filled up and the sounds cranked up right around then.

A last thought; on the bright side, not having a center or true Side/Rear setup saves me some precious weight. Unless someone can come up with an idea of where to put a center (5.25", 100W) in here:

Maybe UNDER the radio/environmental controls, in that little storage-ish area? I'll have to take some measurements later. Would put is on a closer level to the rest of the front speakers... Was hoping to use it to help raise up the sound stage a bit, but you know what they say about beggars and choosers...


----------



## quality_sound

t3sn4f2 said:


> http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=65668
> 
> Seems to be a lot more there then just speaker level inputs.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Right. Thanks.


I've already read what it does, but I'm not seeing what the problem is. It just doesn't seem like there's enough there for it to have taken this long. I'm not trying to get all pissy but it's been over a year since the thread was started and I know development had already been started. Figuring a 40-hour work week (yeah, right) and only one person working on it (yeah, right) and no vacation time taken (yeah, right) we're at 2080 hours in just one year. That's LOT of time to be working on something that only "needs programming worked out". 

Maybe it's time to reevaluate the need for somethings like powered outputs and the iPod input at all. Almost every car on the road has an iPod integration method from the factory or a third party company already, the powered outputs are too low powered to keep up with an aftermarket setup and I can't see anyone integrating this into an otherwise OEM setup. Other than the 7.1 (which is a COMPLETE waste of time in a car) everything else is already being implemented to a certain degree in other products.

I understand wanting it to be perfect out of the gate (avoiding the Pioneer F-series fiasco) but programming is programming is programming, right?


----------



## t3sn4f2

quality_sound said:


> I've already read what it does, but I'm not seeing what the problem is. It just doesn't seem like there's enough there for it to have taken this long. I'm not trying to get all pissy but it's been over a year since the thread was started and I know development had already been started. Figuring a 40-hour work week (yeah, right) and only one person working on it (yeah, right) and no vacation time taken (yeah, right) we're at 2080 hours in just one year. That's LOT of time to be working on something that only "needs programming worked out".
> 
> Maybe it's time to reevaluate the need for somethings like powered outputs and the iPod input at all. Almost every car on the road has an iPod integration method from the factory or a third party company already, the powered outputs are too low powered to keep up with an aftermarket setup and I can't see anyone integrating this into an otherwise OEM setup. Other than the *7.1 (which is a COMPLETE waste of time in a car)* everything else is already being implemented to a certain degree in other products.
> 
> I understand wanting it to be perfect out of the gate (avoiding the Pioneer F-series fiasco) but programming is programming is programming, right?


5.1*

I'd love to have that feature.


----------



## quality_sound

There are a number of 5.1 processors available. Even the 701 does 5.1.


----------



## 14642

Quality Sound,
Believe me, if there was anything in MS-8 that we could use or buy to get this thing out sooner, we would and would have already. Everything is proprietary and for good reason. There isn't a single thing in here that's been done before by another company except for maybe volume, fader and balance. 

Why does it take Mercedes several years to reengineer a car when Kia has already made one?


----------



## t3sn4f2

quality_sound said:


> There are a number of 5.1 processors available. Even the 701 does 5.1.


All of which are not surround formats design for a car environment. 

What happens with the H701 when you select "small" for you center channel in Dolby Pro logic II and don't have a speaker that plays low enough to mate with your sub? You either send midrange to your sub or you are forced to cross that range out completely and loose it since there is no L/R steering from a higher crossed center.


----------



## 14642

quality_sound said:


> Maybe it's time to reevaluate the need for somethings like powered outputs and the iPod input at all. Almost every car on the road has an iPod integration method from the factory or a third party company already, *the powered outputs are too low powered to keep up with an aftermarket setup and I can't see anyone integrating this into an otherwise OEM setup.* *Other than the 7.1 (which is a COMPLETE waste of time in a car) *everything else is already being implemented to a certain degree in other products.


iPod control is gone, BTW.

Also, stating your opinion in the most brazen and confrontational way possible doesn't turn opinion borne of inexperience into fact. I can assure you that the onboard power is sufficient for MANY people (me included) and 7.1, done correctly, is of great benefit in cars. I'll be happy to prove it by giving you a demo any time my car happens to be anywhere convenient for you to have a listen.


----------



## Babs

He referring to the internal amp channels? sheesh.. There's like 8 channels though.. It would be one thing if it were only four channels, but I can definitely see the advantage of 8 properly timed and tuned channels, even if they're not 100w at 4ohms. simple.. one box does it all deal.. install would be super easy.. Add maybe a larger amp for sub duty, but I think it would be a killer startup sq tool.. Then if one must add gobs of power, it'll do that too. As we can see with the Imprint criticisms, I can see why the ms-8 is still in the works though... in-car auto-dsp must be a very tough thing to accomplish well.

Still waiting, though the car has changed.. The ms-8 could be a quick swap out for the oem amp in my 08 Si sedan.. though I'd certainly upgrade the power/ground line. Send those four balanced oem lines to the ms-8, with some good door-deadening and active drivers.. yeeeeehaw. Then run a direct rca aux source (ipodish player of some flavor) as well.. would probably yeild as good or better results from oem head unit maybe.

I'm glad at least it sounds like the ms-8 project hasn't been sh#$canned.


----------



## quality_sound

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> iPod control is gone, BTW.
> 
> Also, stating your opinion in the most brazen and confrontational way possible doesn't turn opinion borne of inexperience into fact. I can assure you that the onboard power is sufficient for MANY people (me included) and 7.1, done correctly, is of great benefit in cars. I'll be happy to prove it by giving you a demo any time my car happens to be anywhere convenient for you to have a listen.


I'm not trying to be brazen, it just comes across that way. I guess it's my typing style. 

I question the need for 7.1 because very little is recorded that way and it's hard enough to implement 5.1 in a car because of the need to fab a center channel in most cars. Now on top of that you have to find locations for the side surrounds. I would love to hear it in a car but I'm on the west coast until May and then Gernamy for the next 4-8 years.


----------



## St. Dark

For 5.1, and selecting "small" on center, you can implement a Bass Management system that redirects the audio below the center's cut-off back to the Left and Right, so that one doesn't lose it entirely.
Similarly, if you turn the center off entirely, you don't lose everything- it goes to the corners. But you retain the front to rear separation.


----------



## 14642

In a car that bass management is tricky, unless the left and right are time aligned. The bass from the center that's sent to the left and right will only reappear in the center of the image if the speakers are equidistant or time aligned. That's the facts and there ain't no 2 ways about it. You won't lose the signal, but the placement of the sound will suffer. That's why it's really important to install a good center. A pair of tweeters in the rear view mirror or stuck to the top of the dashboard are NOT a center channel.


----------



## St. Dark

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> A pair of tweeters in the rear view mirror or stuck to the top of the dashboard are NOT a center channel.



Damnit, Andy! Now I have to replace that Eclipse powered center tweeter kit on my rearview!


----------



## donkeypunch22

Andy, please tell me this is being released and not a dead project.


----------



## 14642

NO, it's definitely not dead. Was in a coma and on life support, but has come back to life.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy, does the unity gain of the MS-8 mean that you only get out what you put in or can it also line drive a sub 2 volt input signal.


----------



## OldOneEye

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> NO, it's definitely not dead. Was in a coma and on life support, but has come back to life.


We talking Gary Busse type of coma, where its never the same again, or we talking more along the lines of rock star OD, where they pick up where they left off after they wake up?

I'm looking forward to this bad boy, remember sitting at a hotel room at CES (well, two hotel rooms unfortunately now I believe) and having Jim and Kelly show us the thing. I was like "I would pay money for one of those as soon as it came out" just because I don't really have the ear to do what it does.

Juan


----------



## 14642

Dude, It's like Lazarus.


----------



## CobraVin

you can put me on the list of beta testers i cant wait to try it out


----------



## WolfSong

Hey Andy... glad to finally see some updates on this.

Did I mention that I work as a computer programmer (if that helps my chances at getting in on the Beta test of the unit)

I know you're probably gun-shy at this question but any word as to how close to production this is?

Thanks
Derek


----------



## Eastcoast

I didn't have time to go through each and every post here but I saw a number of them on the Zapco 6 peice.

Don't know how many of you have used it but I had about a week with one and hated it. It is powerful but quirky and in general a PIA to use. 

This ms-8 peice sounds promising.


----------



## blackreplica

Is this thing ever gonna get released....I mean, its cool of Andy to keep us updated and all but when do we start seeing these things for sale? And before anyone calls me impatient, I've been following development of this thing since Andy's first post in the now-defunct carsound.com forum and that was a MIGHTY long time ago. Plenty of release dates have been disclosed since then and nothing ever came out of it. 

Not trying to be an ass here...I understand how groundbreaking this product is, and thus the need for things to happen slowly and carefully but surely such a long time is sufficient time for a processor to be developed isnt it, especially considering that working prototypes have been floating around and used in competition even for quite some time now? How committed is JBL to actually releasing this to market?


----------



## 14642

believe me when I tell you that you'd have been very unhappy with a product like the working prototypes, unless your use case was precisely the same as those in which the prototypes were used. 

Those prototypes were based on nearly 8,000 pages of completely undocumented code written by a guy who quit. Bad...very bad...yes, a huge screw-up. We're working on it and it will be released. When? I don't know and given all of the past proposed release dates that didn't happen, I'm not presenting another one until we have a truckload of preproduction samples that kick ass and a confirmed production date. 

I know patience is running thin (mine is too). Sorry.


----------



## SSSnake

"Use cases" and "undocumented code"... Andy you are beginning to sound like a software engineer 

I like most are waiting impatiently as I am sure that this will be an excellent solution. Good luck.


----------



## xlynoz

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> believe me when I tell you that you'd have been very unhappy with a product like the working prototypes, unless your use case was precisely the same as those in which the prototypes were used.
> 
> Those prototypes were based on nearly 8,000 pages of completely undocumented code written by a guy who quit. Bad...very bad...yes, a huge screw-up. We're working on it and it will be released. When? I don't know and given all of the past proposed release dates that didn't happen, I'm not presenting another one until we have a truckload of preproduction samples that kick ass and a confirmed production date.
> 
> I know patience is running thin (mine is too). Sorry.



Undocumented code, sounds like some of the developers that used to work for me.


----------



## blackreplica

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> believe me when I tell you that you'd have been very unhappy with a product like the working prototypes, unless your use case was precisely the same as those in which the prototypes were used.
> 
> Those prototypes were based on nearly 8,000 pages of completely undocumented code written by a guy who quit. Bad...very bad...yes, a huge screw-up. We're working on it and it will be released. When? I don't know and given all of the past proposed release dates that didn't happen, I'm not presenting another one until we have a truckload of preproduction samples that kick ass and a confirmed production date.
> 
> I know patience is running thin (mine is too). Sorry.


I guess i can definitely see where you're coming from....im sure you want the product out one thousand times more than i do, so i'm not going to give you TOO much of a hard time...suffice to say a lot of us car audio junkies are very very keen to see the MS-8 sitting in our cars at long last. here's to hoping you make that dream a reality one day. In the meantime i'll force myself to tolerate my factory system

I'm also not sure if you're the guy to ask, but on a completely unrelated topic, i'm sending you a PM


----------



## falkenbd

xlynoz said:


> Undocumented code, sounds like some of the developers that used to work for me.



sounds like 80% of what I write - so it must be ready


----------



## Swagger

Andy, did the 325i with the MS-8 that won the sound quality competition in April of 07 have the Logic 7 system. Will the Logic 7 system in a BMW mess with the Logic 7 of the MS-8, will they work in perfect harmony, or does it even matter since the MS-8 will de-eq the bmw stock amp anyway?


----------



## 14642

Yeah, the BMW included the Logic7 system. What we'll recommend is that all the signal processing (especially spatial processing) that can be defeated in the factory system should be defeated. Logic7 always has an off switch. Bass and treble fader and balance ought to be set flat or center. Then, MS-8 will do its thing. For OE systems that include DVD audio or video, we'll suggest theat the user should choose the 2-channel downmix of the DVD, which mixes in all of the surround stuff into the 2-channel mix. Then, MS-8 will decode that and play the audio in full surround.


----------



## Babs

All this suffering because of cars with overly proprietary dashes and sound systems hard-wired to their silly A/C heat, alarm and other crap. As a car buyer, I'd put these things high on the selection list.. A trend in auto design I hope will reverse or at least not overtake all models.

At least in my ride, the oem actually feeds flat full-freq line-level outs to the OEM amp, which is where any processing actually takes place.. (caveat: as far as I know).


----------



## Grim0013

Another MS8 application question  If I were forced to choose between rear side or rear deck for rear fill w/ an MS8, which would be the better of the two choices as far as overall effect and quality? Would it even matter up in front? Or would it be better to go rear deck, at least for the sake of rear passengers? Really, I think I would prefer rear deck, if only for keeping a more "stock-ish" look in the cabin. Not that there is much stock about a 600+ HP alcohol injected Grand National, but I'd like to do what I can where I can... I'm not even sure I'll be able to come up with a way to integrate a proper center channel, and I kind of want one. 

Which leads to another center question. If I had to choose between a center that is smaller than the FR and FL components, basically a compromise, is it even worth doing it at that point? Like, 4" center vs. 6.5" in the doors. So many tough choices, heh. Trying to do things the right way for a change.


----------



## 14642

It's always better with a center and I'd go with a 4" rather than nothing, unless you don't care at all about the passenger's seat. Then no center is required. I prefer the surround speakers in the sides. That tends to widen the stage a bit, but rear is fine too.


----------



## Grim0013

Much obliged as always Andy. I would like to have both rear and side in the back, but that would eat up 4 channels, leaving only 3 more after the sub, and I really want to do an active setup in front. Hell, just going active 2-way for L, R, C would be 6 channels, 7 with the sub, so I'm not even sure how I would even be able to do two channels of rear fill.... Mono rear deck? Sounds sketchy.... Lots more planning and question asking to do.


----------



## donkeypunch22

Andy, I know you may be biased with the answer to this question, but I have to ask given your post above (and I ask humbly and with all sincerity). Are you saying that a recording played back in two channel stereo processed through Logic 7 sounds more "realistic" than the same media recorded in Dolby Digital 5.1 and then played back through a signal processor that is capable of Dolby Digital 5.1 decoding? For example, does "U2 Live at Slane Castle", which was recorded in Dolby Digital 5.1, really sound more realistic if outputted in stereo and then processed with Logic 7, or through a processor that can decode Dolby Digital 5.1? Thanks for your time.


----------



## 14642

Grim0013 said:


> Much obliged as always Andy. I would like to have both rear and side in the back, but that would eat up 4 channels, leaving only 3 more after the sub, and I really want to do an active setup in front. Hell, just going active 2-way for L, R, C would be 6 channels, 7 with the sub, so I'm not even sure how I would even be able to do two channels of rear fill.... Mono rear deck? Sounds sketchy.... Lots more planning and question asking to do.


If you want to bi- or tri-amp the front or center, you can always use outboard amplifiers that include crossovers to achieve that. Side and rear speakers can be driven in parallel from the rear outputs of the MS-8. 

The BMW is set up that way, sort of. The front mids and highs use a pair of pre amp outpus ad a 4-channel amplifier. THe 8's under the seats are used as midbass and are driven by another amplifier connected to two outputs. THe sides and rears are fed by two channnels of MS-8 through another outboard amp. The center uses a passive network, an outboard amp and an output channel from MS-8 and the sub uses the last one. It works great.


----------



## 14642

donkeypunch22 said:


> Andy, I know you may be biased with the answer to this question, but I have to ask given your post above (and I ask humbly and with all sincerity). Are you saying that a recording played back in two channel stereo processed through Logic 7 sounds more "realistic" than the same media recorded in Dolby Digital 5.1 and then played back through a signal processor that is capable of Dolby Digital 5.1 decoding? For example, does "U2 Live at Slane Castle", which was recorded in Dolby Digital 5.1, really sound more realistic if outputted in stereo and then processed with Logic 7, or through a processor that can decode Dolby Digital 5.1? Thanks for your time.


If the 2-channel downmix contains the surround information (this should be indicated on the disc), then yes, especially in a car. L7 in MS-8 includes a RLC matrix designed specifically for the car appliction and includes a unique bass management circuit as well. In fact, I use L7 at home for movies rather than Dolby or DTS decoding.


----------



## AWC

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If the 2-channel downmix contains the surround information (this should be indicated on the disc), then yes, especially in a car. L7 in MS-8 includes a RLC matrix designed specifically for the car appliction and includes a unique bass management circuit as well. In fact, I use L7 at home for movies rather than Dolby or DTS decoding.


me too....in my bedroom. THX for the living room. I like Logic7. It is conservative and believable. I like DTS, too, but not like THX or L7.


----------



## donkeypunch22

Dear Santa Andy Wehmeyer,

I have been very good this year. You can ask all my friends and wife. Please, please, please... all I want for Christmas is to know when MS-8 will be released, or at least a general where-abouts. Thank you, and I hope your work this December 24 is not too hard. Please tell the elves they are great, and I hope none of them walk out with the documents to all the pages of coding for your MS-8. The reindeer are great, too.

Your Friend,
DonkeyPunch22


----------



## t3sn4f2

t3sn4f2 said:


> Andy, does the unity gain of the MS-8 mean that you only get out what you put in or can it also line drive a sub 2 volt input signal.


Dup dee dup dee doooooooooo...........


----------



## 14642

You get basically the same voltage out that you put in if you use the RCAs. IF you think you need 8 volts out and your amps have differential inputs, you can always use the speaker level outputs.

I'm sure someone here will flame me for suggesting that, citing some crap about "cleanliness of the signal", which is B.S. Audio signals aren't closets.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> You get basically the same voltage out that you put in if you use the RCAs. IF you think you need 8 volts out and your amps have differential inputs, you can always use the speaker level outputs.
> 
> I'm sure someone here will flame me for suggesting that, citing some crap about "cleanliness of the signal", which is B.S. Audio signals aren't closets.


Thanks


----------



## dogstar

This thread amuses me... only Diyma could produce a 15 page thread that has 14 pages of "when does it come out?" 

Reading is key.


----------



## dogstar

Diyma doublepost special


----------



## SQ_Only

Never


----------



## Swagger

I’ve read that you don’t necessarily need to use the MS-8 volume control if you’d rather opt for stock volume control. With the changes that have been made to the MS-8 since it was originally announced, has that changed? If it hasn’t, and the use of stock volume is still possible - will there be noticeable degradation in sound quality by leaving MS-8 volume fixed and controlling the level with the OEM head unit?


----------



## 14642

No, you don't have to use MS-8's volume control. During setup, the display will help you determine what the maximum volume control setting on the head unit you should use to avoid clipping the inputs or sending a bunch of distortion through the processor. Many of the dynamic EQs included in cars are designed to overcome ambient conditions and those don't change when you install aftermarket gear--like road noise, etc. Bass cut provided by some Delco systems can be annoying because the EQ setting for high volume may be bass heavy at lower volumes.


----------



## Swagger

Thanks Andy. So, sound quality wise - there's no difference between using the MS-8's volume control or the OEM volume control? 

I'm using a JL Cleanwweep right now and have it set at a fixed volume so that the NAV voice, door chimes, back-up beeps, etc. come through at a normal volume. The system sounds good, but optimally, I would want to use the JL control. With the MS-8, will it be working optimally using the OEM volume control? The car is an 06 330i with Logic 7. 

I’m pretty sure you answered this question in your last post. Sorry for making you dumb it down.

Thanks!


----------



## 14642

The short version of the answer is, "Sure, it'll sound fine if you use the OE volume control."

The long version is that in that car, it'll be fine and you probably won't hear the difference. There's no reduction in bass response provided by the OE DSP at high volumes, like there is in some other cars, especially GM. One other point that I'll explain in the interest of completeness but that won't be audible is that the inputs to MS-8 feed a/D convertors almost directly. They're designed to recieve some maximum voltage. Ideally, best resolution can be had when the signal peaks match that voltage. During setup, MS-8's display will ask you to turn the volume up until the level of the test signal meets that condition. If you want to use the MS-8 volume control, that's where the head unit's control should be kept. If you use the OE control, it's best not to turn the volume up higher to avoid clippping the A/D's input. Turning the volume down, just means that fewer bits are used to describe the audio signal. It's no big deal and I've been listening to and competing with a system thhat functions similarly. Deatil and resolution are definitely not the weak points in my system and any one who has heard it can attest. If you get hung up on the whole audiophile thing, then using the MS-8 control preserves the resolution of the analog to digital conversion, but the reality is that the convenience of using the OE control outweighs the need to satisfy some technical goal that can be measured but that doesn't degrade the experience. Fortunately, MS-8 includes both options.


----------



## Swagger

Andy, thank you for the detailed explanation!


----------



## 02bluesuperroo

Holy crap. I haven't been on this forum in like a year and we're still having the same discussions about this silly thing? I was hoping by now there would be some used pieces on the market to replace my tired DCX-730......


----------



## 14642

02bluesuperroo said:


> Holy crap. I haven't been on this forum in like a year and we're still having the same discussions about this silly thing? I was hoping by now there would be some used pieces on the market to replace my tired DCX-730......


Sigh...yes...sad, but true. We're working on it.


----------



## 02bluesuperroo

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sigh...yes...sad, but true. We're working on it.


Let me know if you need another programmer.....


----------



## Grim0013

Hey Andy. Hope things are coming along over there...

I have some more questions....

OK, it has been stated that the MS-8 will not have any form of digital input. It has also been debated to death. However, this fact does have a HUGE impact on my system, assuming I decide to go MS-8. I can only assume that hardware has been finalized for some time now. *This is not a feature request, nor is this bitching about a feature or the lack thereof.* This is me trying to make sure I fully understand the equipment I am considering purchasing before making any potentially costly mistakes.

The thing is, I am very seriously considering a "CarPC" for my Grand National. To get to the meat of the issue: Pretty much any motherboard I choose to use will have on-board digital and analog outputs. The analog outputs on motherboards tend to leave much to be desired as far as quality. Numbers like 80db s/n come to mind. 

Now, there is, of course, an alternative to this: buy a high-end sound card like the Auzen X-fi Prelude. Built using high quality parts, the numbers for it's analog outputs are something like >110db s/n, and uses some really nice DACs and capacitors. It also sports a digital output.


_Now, on to the questions._

If I were to use the MS-8 with either of these systems, I have to assume that the system utilizing the high-end sound card will result in a much higher quality sound, correct? The analog outputs on a typical motherboard look like they would raise the hell out of the noise floor at the very least.

The other side of this relates to digital I/O. I work on high speed digital circuits used in telecommunications, so I have some understanding of the technology. However, when it comes to audiophile quality sound, there seems to be many differences at play that I don't have to worry about doing what I do. Like, I doubt much consumer grade gear makes use of cesium clocking sources and such. Basically what I mean is that I understand the tech, but don't entirely understand the ins and outs in this particular application.

So, would it be reasonable to expect, assuming the MS-8 _could _accept a digital input, that the listener would be unlikely to be able to tell a difference between the two sources if they were utilizing digital i/o?

The reason this makes such a big difference to me is simple finances, really. If I need to purchase a better sound card in order to use the MS-8, we're talking about a significant jump in effective price. On one hand, with digital i/o I'd need to purchase a single high quality cable to get from the PC to the processor. On the other other hand, with analog, I would need to purchase a $180 sound card, as well as the extra cost of signal cabling required to transport 5 channels of analog signal from the PC to the processor.

Please don't take this the wrong way. This is not a "ZOMG! teh ms8 sux! It doesn't have s/pdif!!1" post. I want to make sure I understand the tech. If anything I wrote in this post is not accurate, please correct me. That is why I am posting it. In particular, that is why I am posting it in this thread, and asking Andy to respond. I want to make sure I have answers I can count on to be correct.

*Summary of assumptions:* (These are the main points I am looking to have supported or refuted)

Analog signal quality delivered to the MS-8 (or any processor for that matter) matters to some degree.
In the case of on-board audio vs. an Auzen X-fi Prelude (or similar high quality card), that degree is pretty damn significant.
Any s/pdif signal that is within spec will sound the same, assuming all other components remain unchanged.


Thanks,
Brad


----------



## AWC

he sadi he'd get us a DIY patch to run a digi coax in. I don't rmember where he said it be he gonna hook us up right proper.


----------



## t3sn4f2

AWC said:


> he sadi he'd get us a DIY patch to run a digi coax in. I don't rmember where he said it be he gonna hook us up right proper.


Post #293 on this thread


----------



## AWC

t3sn4f2 said:


> Post #293 on this thread


one day, rather than the search thing catcjing up with me...I'm gonna sneak up behind that fuggin' search button and BOOM!!! Fuq a bruthah up, yo!


----------



## t3sn4f2

AWC said:


> one day, rather than the search thing catcjing up with me...I'm gonna sneak up behind that fuggin' search button and BOOM!!! Fuq a bruthah up, yo!


Pure luck I found it, I remember Andy saying "DIY" on it, so I tried searching on that here.


----------



## 14642

Here's a cheap and seemingly high-quality USB sound card. !.2V is plenty for MS-8's RCA input. 

http://www.andreaelectronics.com/pdf_files/ProductSpecs/USB-SASpec.pdf


----------



## 2LOUD2OLD

just had a read through this, had previously only ever heard of the MS-8 but not what it can/will do.
i so want one


----------



## DonovanM

dogstar said:


> This thread amuses me... only Diyma could produce a 15 page thread that has 14 pages of "when does it come out?"
> 
> Reading is key.


I don't want to read. Where the hell is this thing?!?!?!


----------



## HHawk

*Good news people!!!*

The JBL MS-8 soundprocessor will be released at the same time as Duke Nukem Forever!

Which equals never...


----------



## Grim0013

HHawk said:


> *Good news people!!!*
> 
> The JBL MS-8 soundprocessor will be released at the same time as Duke Nukem Forever!
> 
> Which equals never...


I wonder how many people even remember that? Back in the old days we had *real *vaporware! Pun 100% intended. Sorry.


----------



## donkeypunch22

Andy, throw us a bone, how is it going???? Also, I had a couple questions. 

First, did I misunderstand, or does MS8 not adjust phase issues? I know it adjusts timing issues, but does it adjust phase problems? 

Second, if the Imprint from Apline has approximately 500 points of eq, then how many does MS8 have, and how many from 20Hz-100Hz where you've said many problems are?


----------



## kkant

donkeypunch22 said:


> Second, if the Imprint from Apline has approximately 500 points of eq, then how many does MS8 have, and how many from 20Hz-100Hz where you've said many problems are?


Just as an aside, the Imprint completely sucks. I've tried it pretty extensively, and I'd say don't even bother with it. You'll get much better results spending an hour tuning manually with sweeps. One of its biggest problems (at least on the model I own) is that it refuses to let you set your own xover points/slopes when it is in auto-EQ mode. It tries to calculate your xover points from its measurements. Stupid.

But I think your question is an important one. Cars have serious midbass problems, around 60-160 I'd say depending on the car. And it's important to get the frequency just right for those standing wave modes. One of the things that seems to be sorely lacking in the car audio world is precisely controllable parametric EQs. Which is why so many of us have had to use pro audio EQs instead. Until the MS-8 comes out, hopefully.

So yeah. Any updates on the release, Andy?


----------



## SUX 2BU

With all of the tongue-in-cheek pokes at the release date, I doubt Andy would want to chime in but ya never know. Seems like a pretty reasonable guy.

Kkant, your comments experience with the Imprint is interesting. I know in my truck, I got a pretty bad 160Hz-ish resonance. I tried with Alpine 3401 7-band fully parametric analog EQ to smooth it out but it actually sounded better when I low-passed my midbass over at around 120. I left a gap there. My mids came in at about 200 and the crossed over gap sounded better than trying to EQ it out.


----------



## kkant

Andy knows we're just joshin with him. Right Andy? 

That's a good point about leaving an xover gap, sometimes your can solve the problem that way. But not always, IME. It's a shame we have to resort to stuff like that, rather than having access to real EQs that are fully adjustable. If Behringer can do it for $250 on a pretty small circuit board, I don't see why there's no car audio equivalent.

Anyway...the MS-8 is gonna be better than all of the above, so it's a moot point. Or it will soon be a moot point. Hopefully.


----------



## 14642

We deserve all the ridicule you guys can dish out. It's no fun, but it's deserved.

Anyway, the EQ in MS-8 isn't a multi-tap filter (like the Audyssey), nor is it a standard parametric EQ or a graphic EQ (like Cleansweep). It's something far more bizarre. It works great, and with 8 biquads per channel can do more work than 512 taps. It doesn't EQ phase separately from frequency magnitude, but in my experience, that isn't necessary so long as you have a center channel and a matrix or some other center signal extraction method or time alignment. MS-8 has both. 

One thing that's important to remember when you're setting crossovers with conventional gear is that what appears to be a gap may, in fact, not be a gap. Here's an example (but without pictures, because I'm lazy today).

Let's say you cross your subs over at 100Hz and your mids over at 200Hz. Both slopes are 12dB/octave. When the output of the subs is precisely the same level as the output of the mids, the subs are down 3dB at 100Hz and the mids are down 3dB at 200 Hz. At 150Hz, both are down 6dB. Now, adjust the input sensitivity of the sub amp, so it sounds like you have bass. Let's say you boost it by 12dB. Now, the sub is up 12dB at maybe 80Hz and below, up 9dB at 100Hz and at 0dB at 200Hz. Now where's your crossover point?

200Hz. 

MS-8 avoids this problem by providing one crossover frequency setting for the sub and the midbass, adjusting the final slopes and frequency automatically using the acoustic EQ and then providing a bass shelf filter as a subwoofer level control which is applied to all the channels through the crossover. That way, the midbass and the subwoofer get the appropriateamount of boost at the right frequencies to add bass to the system while maintaining the proper crossover point so the bass doesn't become boomy and direectional. It works great and I have that process running as a VST plug-in in my car now. 

We're still working on the last two software modules, but there significant progress. We'll have some samples one of these days. Sorry for the delay and continue flaming us all you want.


----------



## BMWturbo

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Let's say you cross your subs over at 100Hz and your mids over at 200Hz. Both slopes are 12dB/octave. When the output of the subs is precisely the same level as the output of the mids, the subs are down 3dB at 100Hz and the mids are down 3dB at 200 Hz. At 150Hz, both are down 6dB. Now, adjust the input sensitivity of the sub amp, so it sounds like you have bass. Let's say you boost it by 12dB. Now, the sub is up 12dB at maybe 80Hz and below, up 9dB at 100Hz and at 0dB at 200Hz. Now where's your crossover point?
> 
> 200Hz.


Can you elaborate on this Andy. I can't see how the crossover point change with level. I understand that you are saying as you change levels ie increasing the level of the sub that the reduction in level due to the crossover slope will intersect the midrange HP at a higher frequency, but this doesn't change the crossover point as such does it?

I'm pretty sure that it will change the levels in the 'underlap' range relative to eachother through the transition between drivers, but it won't change the crossover point?

*EDIT* I might be interpreting 'crossover point' incorrectly. Is it more correct to talk about a HP and LP cut-off or -3dB point, which would be more accurate and that the crossover point is exactly that, the point at which the two slopes intersect? In which case a 100hz LP cannot be called a crossover, but a filter. So in fact when someone says they have a crossover set at 100hz LP and 200hz HP, the actual 'crossover point' cannot be know unless the levels are known?


----------



## t3sn4f2

BMWturbo said:


> Can you elaborate on this Andy. I can't see how the crossover point change with level. I understand that you are saying as you change levels ie increasing the level of the sub that the reduction in level due to the crossover slope will intersect the midrange HP at a higher frequency, but this doesn't change the crossover point as such does it?
> 
> I'm pretty sure that it will change the levels in the 'underlap' range relative to eachother through the transition between drivers, but it won't change the crossover point?


The "acoustic" crossover point changes.


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> The "acoustic" crossover point changes.


 
Ding, ding ding. We have a winner. The acoustic crossover point is the only one that matters (outside power handling considerations).


----------



## Babs

As the db level of the bass signal rises, there's a up-frequency shift in the slope of the top of the bass signal, so the intersection (x-over) point with the mid signal is higher as result. Correct?

Interesting, and disheartening.. A brutha's got to have some measuring to tune.. Good ears alone can only be so good I'm starting to think.

The solution in the MS-8 sound really slick Andy. 
I could even find all kinds of use for the provided internal amp.

..... sure wish I had one dadgummit!!!!


----------



## donkeypunch22

Andy, thanks for taking the time to answer. I needed some inspiration to keep the faith!

Oh, and Andy, if you could, what are "eight biquads of filters"? I know a filter is the same word for an eq, right? But what is a biquad?


----------



## 14642

donkeypunch22 said:


> Andy, thanks for taking the time to answer. I needed some inspiration to keep the faith!
> 
> Oh, and Andy, if you could, what are "eight biquads of filters"? I know a filter is the same word for an eq, right? But what is a biquad?


Let's make this easy and say a biquad is a filter that can be configured to be a high pass of just about any alignment; low pass of just about any alignment, parametric EQ of nearly any frequency, gain and Q; notch, high shelf; low shelf or phase shift. The MS-8 assigns the filter type and values (frequency, Q and gain) based on the measurements it makes and the algorithm (predefined process or set of instructions for making decisions written as code) that determines how the decision will be made. So, for the purposes of this discussion, MS-8 has 8 opportunities per channel to implement something that does part of the job of fixing the channel's response. The details of how it makes the decisions are proprietary, patented and too difficult for me to try to explain.

I'm sure someone will flame me for oversimplifying this--OK, all you DSP programmers...flame away!


----------



## norcalsfinest

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Let's make this easy and say a biquad is a filter that can be configured to be a high pass of just about any alignment; low pass of just about any alignment, parametric EQ of nearly any frequency, gain and Q; notch, high shelf; low shelf or phase shift. The MS-8 assigns the filter type and values (frequency, Q and gain) based on the measurements it makes and the algorithm (predefined process or set of instructions for making decisions written as code) that determines how the decision will be made. So, for the purposes of this discussion, MS-8 has 8 opportunities per channel to implement something that does part of the job of fixing the channel's response. The details of how it makes the decisions are proprietary, patented and too difficult for me to try to explain.
> 
> I'm sure someone will flame me for oversimplifying this--OK, all you DSP programmers...flame away!


Nothing wrong with that explanation. If i was trying to explain this to someone who is not one of my academic peers, I'd use "DSP for Dummies" too


----------



## quality_sound

So is the process manual or automatic? I nkow I've heard that it's got manual controls but are those in addition to the automatic controls or on top of? What I mean is, do the manual controls adjust the settings done by automatic process or is it a separate set of filters?


----------



## AWC

quality_sound said:


> So is the process manual or automatic? I nkow I've heard that it's got manual controls but are those in addition to the automatic controls or on top of? What I mean is, do the manual controls adjust the settings done by automatic process or is it a separate set of filters?


he had said it would be capable of 8 points along the graph for adjustment. Similar to the concept of Audyseey but it has treble and bass. Once auto-eq and t/a is ran, adjustments would be made to that automatic setting, allowing you to make personal touches to what the machine calls 'tuned'. You also have x-over controls prior to the set-up process...which is automatic. Hopefully they give us a half din controller rather than that odd one on the BMW promo but it'll do.

that about right, Andy?


----------



## 14642

quality_sound said:


> So is the process manual or automatic? I nkow I've heard that it's got manual controls but are those in addition to the automatic controls or on top of? What I mean is, do the manual controls adjust the settings done by automatic process or is it a separate set of filters?


Some of it is manual and some is automatic. The user enters the crossover frequencies and assigns the channels. Then the user helps MS-8 make its measurements by placing the microphones and pressing "Go". MS-8 adjusts the EQ and, consequently, optimizes the crossovers and slopes for proper acoustic performance. Then, if you want to make adjustments, you get a 31-band EQ. The 31-band EQ is a separate set of filters that you can use to draw whatever curve you want. 

Unlike most 31-band graphic EQs, the response tracks the settings precisely. What many users expect is that if they boost all the sliders by 12dB, that the response should be flat, but boosted by 12dB across the spectrum. This is almost never the case, because making the filter Qs narrow enough to do that makes the response look like a comb. Making the filters wider provides more gain than one would expect when adjacent bands are boosted. Also, adjacent band boosts and cuts are rarely executed by conventional EQs as one would expect. The math used in MS-8's 31-band EQ adjusts adjacent bands automatically so that the curve you draw is the curve you get. This is a big deal, by the way.

For those of you who have an EQ laying around, plug it into your sound card. Make it a loop-back. Generate some pink noise and look at the response as you make adjustments. You may not like what you see and it's one of the reasons that tuning with a conventional 31-band EQ and using a 31-band RTA rarely results in great sound.

The whole point of MS-8 and the point at which it differs most from every other processor that's come to market so far is that it's intended to provide a bunch of tools you can use easily to be successful in making your car sound great. It's not intended to be the tool corral at Home Depot, where almost anything is available, but it's up to you to learn how to use it. If we just took the on-chip library from the TI DSP we're using and added a GUI, this product would have been finished three years ago, but it would have been just like every other DSP EQ/Crossover. There would have been a bunch of people who can pronounce "equalizer" and who have heard the terms "Butterworth", Linkwitz-Riley" and "All-pass filter" raving about the resolution of the available adjustments, but the success rate in making cars sound great and, consequently, the sales rate for the product would have been just as dismal as every one of its predecessors. 

This industry doesn't need more tool boxes, it needs more carpenters and more folks who are willing to step up to provide real solutions. Giving a guy with no arms a garden hoe and a shovel doesn't get the carrots planted.


----------



## WolfSong

Thanks for the update Andy.

The product sounds very interesting, though I think at heart some people are control freaks and so the automated parts will scare them off. To me it sounds like you're trying to deliver the best of both worlds... a plug and play solution that a casual user can get wonderful results but also allowing for further tweaking on top of that for more advanced users. 

I'm intrigued by the concepts that you've presented and looking forward to seeing them in action. Glad to hear that you've made some serious progress.


----------



## 14642

I used to be one of those control freaks too and burdened the engineers with a thousand requests for a back door...until I discovered that the prototype version of MS-8 could do in a few minutes what it takes me weeks to do-and it does a better job.


----------



## AWC

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I used to be one of those control freaks too and burdened the engineers with a thousand requests for a back door...until I discovered that the prototype version of MS-8 could do in a few minutes what it takes me weeks to do-and it does a better job.


It seems I read small underlying hints of large changes from the original product we read about. Place the microphones? I know, its a secret


----------



## 14642

"Placing the microphone" means putting it on your head and sitting in the driver's seat, turning your head from side to side according to the prompts, and moving to the other seats (if you want optimizations for those seats too). No change there.


----------



## 22dubman22

ya sounds great.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Some of it is manual and some is automatic. The user enters the crossover frequencies and assigns the channels. Then the user helps MS-8 make its measurements by placing the microphones and pressing "Go". MS-8 adjusts the EQ and, consequently, optimizes the crossovers and slopes for proper acoustic performance. Then, if you want to make adjustments, you get a 31-band EQ. The 31-band EQ is a separate set of filters that you can use to draw whatever curve you want.
> 
> Unlike most 31-band graphic EQs, the response tracks the settings precisely. What many users expect is that if they boost all the sliders by 12dB, that the response should be flat, but boosted by 12dB across the spectrum. This is almost never the case, because making the filter Qs narrow enough to do that makes the response look like a comb. Making the filters wider provides more gain than one would expect when adjacent bands are boosted. Also, adjacent band boosts and cuts are rarely executed by conventional EQs as one would expect. The math used in MS-8's 31-band EQ adjusts adjacent bands automatically so that the curve you draw is the curve you get. This is a big deal, by the way.
> 
> For those of you who have an EQ laying around, plug it into your sound card. Make it a loop-back. Generate some pink noise and look at the response as you make adjustments. You may not like what you see and it's one of the reasons that tuning with a conventional 31-band EQ and using a 31-band RTA rarely results in great sound.
> 
> The whole point of MS-8 and the point at which it differs most from every other processor that's come to market so far is that it's intended to provide a bunch of tools you can use easily to be successful in making your car sound great. It's not intended to be the tool corral at Home Depot, where almost anything is available, but it's up to you to learn how to use it. If we just took the on-chip library from the TI DSP we're using and added a GUI, this product would have been finished three years ago, but it would have been just like every other DSP EQ/Crossover. There would have been a bunch of people who can pronounce "equalizer" and who have heard the terms "Butterworth", Linkwitz-Riley" and "All-pass filter" raving about the resolution of the available adjustments, but the success rate in making cars sound great and, consequently, the sales rate for the product would have been just as dismal as every one of its predecessors.
> 
> This industry doesn't need more tool boxes, it needs more carpenters and more folks who are willing to step up to provide real solutions. Giving a guy with no arms a garden hoe and a shovel doesn't get the carrots planted.


----------



## Grim0013

Sounds basically like you guys are really trying to "shoot the moon" with the MS-8. Incorporating tools capable of satisfying both the "average" user and the "experts" is quite a challenge. I consider myself somewhere in between, as most on here probably would, and have to say, and I really am looking forward to the finished device. The current crop of "intelligent" DSPs are too inflexible, and traditional solutions don't work well for me due to a combination of "enthusiast" knowledge level, lack of specialized tools and, most significantly, some moderate hearing loss. I can hear a pin drop at 50 meters, but I can barely understand what people with certain types of voices are saying right next to me. I am really looking to the MS-8 to help alleviate some of the frustration I feel when tuning.

Now, about how big is it going to be, so I know how large of an unused area to leave when I get down to 'glassing my trunk.


----------



## kkant

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Unlike most 31-band graphic EQs, the response tracks the settings precisely. What many users expect is that if they boost all the sliders by 12dB, that the response should be flat, but boosted by 12dB across the spectrum. This is almost never the case, because making the filter Qs narrow enough to do that makes the response look like a comb. Making the filters wider provides more gain than one would expect when adjacent bands are boosted. Also, adjacent band boosts and cuts are rarely executed by conventional EQs as one would expect. The math used in MS-8's 31-band EQ adjusts adjacent bands automatically so that the curve you draw is the curve you get. This is a big deal, by the way.


Very nice. That is indeed a big deal. Will you be able to define several such curves to use as runtime presets? Do you need to re-auto-EQ when you change the 31-band curve?


----------



## 14642

Yup. 10 runtime presets. Once the auto EQ has been run, there's no need to do it again. The correction filters for the car don't change when you add your own spin with the 1/3rd octave EQ.


----------



## ARCuhTEK

Good thread...I have been following the MS8 for a while like everyone else.

I look forward to the launch.....2010, 2011.....whenever.


----------



## 96MaxGLE

I just started searching around about OEM integration...I just bought a '07 Acura TL Type-S. I've found info about this unit since '07 so I hoped it was out by now...oh well...


----------



## ARCuhTEK

96MaxGLE said:


> I just started searching around about OEM integration...I just bought a '07 Acura TL Type-S. I've found info about this unit since '07 so I hoped it was out by now...oh well...


Best bet for OEM integration for now is the Audison Bit One.


----------



## m3gunner

Yeah, Kevin, right about the time you're ready to send the BitOne to CA to rejoin the 431... 



ARCuhTEK said:


> Good thread...I have been following the MS8 for a while like everyone else.
> 
> I look forward to the launch.....2010, 2011.....whenever.


----------



## ARCuhTEK

m3gunner said:


> Yeah, Kevin, right about the time you're ready to send the BitOne to CA to rejoin the 431...


I am the worst impulse shopper you have ever met within the male gender. So dont think for one moment I wont do it!


----------



## mthaynes2002

OK, I haven't read all 17 pages of write-up, I admit, so this may have been covered already... Can the MS-8 perform different time alignments, based of frequency, on the same channel? This would be useful for people like me that have a set of separates with the mids in the kicks and the tweets in the mirror pod and not bi-amping.


----------



## t3sn4f2

mthaynes2002 said:


> OK, I haven't read all 17 pages of write-up, I admit, so this may have been covered already... Can the MS-8 perform different time alignments, based of frequency, on the same channel? This would be useful for people like me that have a set of separates with the mids in the kicks and the tweets in the mirror pod and not bi-amping.


nope


----------



## mthaynes2002

That sucks, but I guess since it has some built in amplification, I could just use it to bi-amp the separates. Seems like that it wouldn't be difficult for this magic box to perform it though, that way I can use the crossover that was designed for my speakers. I guess I will wait for the MS-9. Should be out in 2015.


----------



## 14642

mthaynes2002 said:


> OK, I haven't read all 17 pages of write-up, I admit, so this may have been covered already... Can the MS-8 perform different time alignments, based of frequency, on the same channel? This would be useful for people like me that have a set of separates with the mids in the kicks and the tweets in the mirror pod and not bi-amping.


This has to be invented. I've asked for it for another product and it's currently in the works. It isn't simple. MS-8 won't suck for not having it, just like an apple doesn't suck because it can't fly.


----------



## KP

ARCuhTEK said:


> Best bet for OEM integration for now is the Audison Bit One.


Zapco Hi-Lo converters into a DSP6 have been working great in my 05 TL for over three years.

K


----------



## kkant

mthaynes2002 said:


> That sucks, but I guess since it has some built in amplification, I could just use it to bi-amp the separates. Seems like that it wouldn't be difficult for this magic box to perform it though, that way I can use the crossover that was designed for my speakers.


An active crossover is better than passive. If you know approximately where your passive's xover point is, you are set. Even if you don't know, you can likely guess well enough.

Use the built-in amp on the MS-8 to run the tweeters, and your existing amp to run the woofer.


----------



## blackreplica

so...this thing is STILL not done...and no one has any idea when it will be ready?


----------



## 14642

cajunner said:


> until someone develops a touch screen where you can draw your curve, and have the processor "make it happen", and calibrated mic analysis inside the vehicle at the processor mic's identical position shows that you will, indeed, have that curve, I think there's going to be some room for improvement...
> 
> this would be a kickbutt option, I think. Pen stylus, nice 20-20k side scrolling graph, and a bank, and corresponding book of preset curves that have been "celebrity" advertised...


This is, essentially, what MS-8 will give you. Instead of a pen and stylus, you get 31 bands to draw your curve once the correction curve has been applied.


----------



## 14642

cajunner said:


> you have to acknowledge that while the RTA is showing amplitude, there's likely some artifacts very near the same intensity but coming in at a small delay, such that by comparison with the original clock one might be able to determine what's reflection and what's decay....


This is a simple gated measurement compared with a non gated measurement. The gated measurement will give you the anechoic response (no reflections). The non gated measurement will give you the total. difference is reflections. This is how MLSSA and all the other analyzers that do this work. However, low frequency resolution depends on the size of the room. In a car, it wouldn't be possible to accurately differentiate between the two below the midrange. Equalizing above that point will be very effective in one tiny spot. None of this is necessary for good sound and is mostly an exercise in technology for technology's sake. Comb filtering isn't nearly as audible or objectionable as people think and that's what the phase dfferences between diect and reflected sound create.

Occasionally, if the stars are aligned, there can be some huge peaks caused by constructive interference, but without a head-tracker and a convolver, they are damn difficult to remove--moving the speaker is the best fix in those cases.


----------



## SQ_Only

Does anyone besides Andy actually have one of these yet?


----------



## 14642

cajunner said:


> and can someone really do a smooth curve with 31 bands?
> 
> are those bands centered so that the octave to octave increases vary with q?


See post #397


----------



## dkh

double post


----------



## dkh

SQ_Only said:


> Does anyone besides Andy actually have one of these yet?


Not released yet - still a pipe dream, a caraudio wetdream, a figment of most ICE people's imagination of where caraudio processors should go/head... 

Unless you wanna do a diy job and get one part from the far east another from europe and some from the local hardware store and glue/solder/screw it together yourself with your PhD in electronics etc etc etc


----------



## donkeypunch22

Andy, will there be any problem running a deck with 5V preouts to the MS-8? I thought I saw that the MS-8 has a 2V input max. Thanks for your time, and get back to work on the MS-8 project.


----------



## t3sn4f2

donkeypunch22 said:


> Andy, will there be any problem running a deck with 5V preouts to the MS-8? I thought I saw that the MS-8 has a 2V input max. Thanks for your time, and get back to work on the MS-8 project.


Post #243 and #244


----------



## kkant

After having re-read this thread and the carsound thread, I think I actually have a new question.

Among other things, I plan to use a 2-way center 150-20k and 3-way front L/R 100-20k. "Coax" center in lower console, in front of shift knob. Front L/R woofers in the doors. Question is, where should I put the L/R mids/tweets? Kicks or pillars?

My current thought on this is that pillars are better for stage height, but worse for tonality due to window reflections. Maybe that is off-base. In any case, which setup would the MS-8 sound better with? Can it compensate for tonal problems in a pillar install, or would that take up too many filters?

The other consideration is that putting them in the kicks would remove the need for time alignment between woofer and mid/tweet; this would allow me to run the whole 3-way from a single MS-8 channel, thereby freeing up two MS-8 outputs. I could use those for rear deck speakers, in addition to the rear door speakers I have planned.

Any thoughts?


----------



## kkant

Well I found the answer, in one of the carsound threads:

JBL 2006 BMW with MS-8 procesor - CARSOUND.COM Forum

Looks like putting drivers in the pillars will work just fine with the MS-8.


----------



## donkeypunch22

Andy, if you hook up the front, rear, center, and sub out from a deck that does Dolby 5.1 decoding to the MS8, I presume it will downmix the seperated outputs to stereo and then massage it back through Logic 7, right? Is that a problem, or would you recommend to hook up just the front output from the deck to the MS8 and never turn the Dolby 5.1 decoding on? Thanks again for your time.


----------



## 14642

donkeypunch22 said:


> Andy, if you hook up the front, rear, center, and sub out from a deck that does Dolby 5.1 decoding to the MS8, I presume it will downmix the seperated outputs to stereo and then massage it back through Logic 7, right? Is that a problem, or would you recommend to hook up just the front output from the deck to the MS8 and never turn the Dolby 5.1 decoding on? Thanks again for your time.


MS-8 doesn't downmix the 5.1. I will upmix the 2-chanel downmix on the DVD, though. Select the 2-channel downmix in the DVD player's menu and Logic7 will play the DVD back in full surround designed to be appropriate for the car (instead of your living room). Well...it will when i's finally released.


----------



## BMWTUBED

Admittedly I haven't read all 2119 posts on this subject, but I have done a fair amount of googling related to the 325i install. I mainly find 3-4 of the same press release information from about two years ago. My question is: is there any documented release of information regarding how each of the 8 channels were powered, passive crossovers used, exact tweeks that Gary made after the MS-8 did it's thing, etc? I would guess the system was powered as follows, but would love confirmation if anyone knows:
left tweet / mid - 1st chnl (using passive x-over?)
center tweet / mid - 2nd chnl (using passive x-over?)
right tweet / mid - 3rd chnl (using passive x-over?)
left mid bass - 4th chnl
right mid bass - 5th chnl
rear left tweet / mid - 6th chnl (using passive x-over?)
rear right tweet / mid 7th chnl (using passive x-over?)
subs - 8th chnl 

Stock speakers in a BMW winning a major competition 
Almost sounds too good to be true


----------



## Dillyyo

BMWTUBED said:


> Admittedly I haven't read all 2119 posts on this subject, but I have done a fair amount of googling related to the 325i install. I mainly find 3-4 of the same press release information from about two years ago. My question is: is there any documented release of information regarding how each of the 8 channels were powered, passive crossovers used, exact tweeks that Gary made after the MS-8 did it's thing, etc? I would guess the system was powered as follows, but would love confirmation if anyone knows:
> left tweet / mid - 1st chnl (using passive x-over?)
> center tweet / mid - 2nd chnl (using passive x-over?)
> right tweet / mid - 3rd chnl (using passive x-over?)
> left mid bass - 4th chnl
> right mid bass - 5th chnl
> rear left tweet / mid - 6th chnl (using passive x-over?)
> rear right tweet / mid 7th chnl (using passive x-over?)
> subs - 8th chnl
> 
> Stock speakers in a BMW winning a major competition
> Almost sounds too good to be true


I don't think passives were used at all in the setup, but I could be wrong.


----------



## 14642

BMWTUBED said:


> Admittedly I haven't read all 2119 posts on this subject, but I have done a fair amount of googling related to the 325i install. I mainly find 3-4 of the same press release information from about two years ago. My question is: is there any documented release of information regarding how each of the 8 channels were powered, passive crossovers used, exact tweeks that Gary made after the MS-8 did it's thing, etc? I would guess the system was powered as follows, but would love confirmation if anyone knows:
> left tweet / mid - 1st chnl (using passive x-over?)
> center tweet / mid - 2nd chnl (using passive x-over?)
> right tweet / mid - 3rd chnl (using passive x-over?)
> left mid bass - 4th chnl
> right mid bass - 5th chnl
> rear left tweet / mid - 6th chnl (using passive x-over?)
> rear right tweet / mid 7th chnl (using passive x-over?)
> subs - 8th chnl
> 
> Stock speakers in a BMW winning a major competition
> Almost sounds too good to be true


Almost correct. Sides and rear were driven by the same two output channels. JBL PX 300.4 amps on all the stock speakers and a BPX 2200.1 on the subs. Tweeter was added to the sides, rears and center with passive crossovers. 

No additional tweaks after the autotune. The car won using the "compromise" optimization for the two front seats.


----------



## BMWTUBED

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Almost correct. Sides and rear were driven by the same two output channels. JBL PX 300.4 amps on all the stock speakers and a BPX 2200.1 on the subs. Tweeter was added to the sides, rears and center with passive crossovers.
> 
> No additional tweaks after the autotune. The car won using the "compromise" optimization for the two front seats.


Thanks for the clarification. I forgot about the rear deck speakers.

Custom built passive crossovers I assume?


----------



## 14642

Just a capacitor on the tweeters. I think a 4.7uF.


----------



## lenkiatleong

Hi Andy,

Will MS8 works beautifully in MPV with 3 rows of seats? I could get nice image only for passenger seat but i could not get upfront bass as my subwoofer is too far at the back with no trunk. I have no clue how MS8 could help improve the sound in my car (Mitsubishi Grandis).
If yes, can you please advise me which JBL speakers to install for all 8 channels (especially the center speaker)? I need to get ready for your MS8. If possible, please recommend the amps too. I'm wondering how MS8 can enhance music and movie enjoyment to all passengers in 3 rows. Is this too challenging question?

Cheers.


----------



## lenkiatleong

Hi Andy,

Will MS8 works beautifully in MPV with 3 rows of seats? I could get nice image only for passenger seat but i could not get upfront bass as my subwoofer is too far at the back with no trunk. I have no clue how MS8 could help improve the sound in my car (Mitsubishi Grandis).
If yes, can you please advise me which JBL speakers to install for all 8 channels (especially the center speaker)? I need to get ready for your MS8. If possible, please recommend the amps too. I'm wondering how MS8 can enhance music and movie enjoyment to all passengers in 3 rows. Is this too challenging question?

Cheers.


----------



## AWC

dkh said:


> Not released yet - still a pipe dream, a caraudio wetdream, a figment of most ICE people's imagination of where caraudio processors should go/head...
> 
> Unless you wanna do a diy job and get one part from the far east another from europe and some from the local hardware store and glue/solder/screw it together yourself with your PhD in electronics etc etc etc


CDA 9887 uses Audyssey. Use the second subwoofer output for the center channel. Done. No more a figment of the imagination. DIY prevails.


----------



## kkant

AWC said:


> CDA 9887 uses Audyssey.


Audyssey blows.


----------



## AWC

kkant said:


> Audyssey blows.


Nothing can blow while stuck in inexistence SO the MS-8 ROCKS!!! Wherever it may be...


----------



## kkant

AWC said:


> Nothing can blow while stuck in inexistence SO the MS-8 ROCKS!!! Wherever it may be...


Point taken, but Audyssey still blows.


----------



## lenkiatleong

AWC said:


> Nothing can blow while stuck in inexistence SO the MS-8 ROCKS!!! Wherever it may be...


I am not sure how MS8 would perform when its finally release to market but i am currently enjoying Auddysey technology at home (Marantz AV8003). It took me (noob in tuning) only 30 minutes to sample 5 listening points. The result from Auddysey blew me away!!
Nevertheless, i'm not sure how CDA9887 or PXE650 performs in a car environment with IMPRINT (Auddysey). It takes 2 to tango. Marantz AV8003 dances well with Auddysey.

Does anyone understand what Andy meant by "_The car won using the "compromise" optimization for the two front seats. _". This comment sets me back one step. I was expecting MS8 to sound as good in term of image and soundstage) as what Mark Levinson has done for Lexus cars where every one in the car get good image and soundstage. Am i wrong to assume this?


----------



## 14642

lenkiatleong said:


> Does anyone understand what Andy meant by "_The car won using the "compromise" optimization for the two front seats. _". This comment sets me back one step. I was expecting MS8 to sound as good in term of image and soundstage) as what Mark Levinson has done for Lexus cars where every one in the car get good image and soundstage. Am i wrong to assume this?


The Auto EQ measures the distance (acoustic) to all the speakers connected to each of its outputs. Then it EQs the combinations of channels that are assigned to each spatial location (right front, left front, center, left side, right side, left rear, right rear and sub). If you choose the driver's seat listening position, time alignment is optimized for that seat, just as it is with other systems. If you choose the passenger's seat, it's optimized for the passenger's seat. If you choose "front seats", then the left and right time alignment is defeated, but individual driver time alignment remains (midbass to tweeter, for example). 

Obviously, with no center channel, this works like any other time alignment scheme. Only one seat can be optimum. A center image in a stereo system depends on mono information arriving at precisely the same time, at the same level and with the same frequency response from both speakers. If you have a center channel and Logic 7, a great center image no longer depends on this because mono information is steered to the center speaker. If the center speaker has the same bandwidth and the same frequency response as the front right and left, it'll work fine. The driver's seat and the passenger's seat will sound the same. 

What if your center speaker won't play below 300 Hz and you have to rely on a phantom center image for sounds below 300 Hz? MS-8 steers information below the center channel high pass filter to the right and left and eventually the subwoofer so nothing is missing. However, the left and right midbass wont be time aligned for either seat. 

Is it a big deal? Not really, unless you plan to use only a pair of tweeters as a center channel. 

Car audio enthusiasts typically prefer a strong and stable center image and OE consumers are less critical regarding imaging. There's an ongoing fight about where the center image should appear. I believe--after 25 years of building cars for customers--that it should appear in the center of the dashboard (or the hood, if possible) no matter which seat you sit in. Some of the folks who build OE systems believe the center image should be directly in front of each listener. MS-8 is tuned so that the center is in the center. If you like it the other way, it's simple to adjust--just turn the center channel down a bit in the menu. 

MS-8 is not going to do everything perfectly--it wont peel apples or make gold out of a rock from your front yard--it isn't designed to be all things to all people. If you believe that you have to have a high-end D/A convertor or you have some other highly technical *REQUIREMENT*, you may find that another product meets your needs. MS-8 isn't some gold-plated, gold-PCB, million-dollar connector laden class-A multi-channel amplifier with all kinds of super esoteric crap designed to appeal only to enthusiasts. Those kinds of products make regular folks like me afraid to try audio as a hobby. I don't believe that in order to enjoy listening to a great sounding system, one has to be endowed by God with some heightened sensory perception and to be so enthusiastic about the gear that one would read (and take seriously) all the flowery prose intended to make religion out of science. 

MS-8 is designed to make a great sounding system available to anyone who wants it at the most reasonable cost possible. There's plenty of high-end *thinking* packed into the little box and none of the components are compromised in the interest of shaving cost. We also haven't included any esoteric junk that inflates the cost for limited return. This is an exercise in reaching the point of diminishing return in parts cost and providing performance and ease of use that are without equal. If you're willing to stretch a bit in your opinion of what is and isn't required for great performance, MS-8 will be fun and eye-opening for you. 

I'm expecting another iteration in the mail on Monday to begin final testing of input use cases--testing of UN-EQ, Logic7, all of the audio controls, etc, while the engineers finish coding the auto EQ for the TI610 DSP. Once that's done, we'll send the design to our validation team for final testing against the product spec-to be sure there are no noises or misbehavior. 

This thing has taken so long to develop that there's no way we're going to skimp on validation. I can only imagine the backlash if we release something that hasn't been fully tested and we can't provide an answer to all questions regarding setup or use in various systems. 

If the DIY spirit is about doing things yourself with parts you find at radio shack at great cost in money and time and you're a hardcore DIYer, MS-8 isn't for you. This thing is designed to be a tool that nearly anyone can use to be successful in building and setting up a great sounding system or improving an existing but not-so-great-sounding one without having to spend thousands of dollars on esoteric drivers, fiberglass kick panels, additional amplifiers (unless you require a car that plays much louder than a premium factory system), ridiculous interconnects and speaker cables, etc, etc, etc. If the DIY spirit is about finding tools and gear that allow you not to be dependent on a retail installer who claims that all of that is necessary to have a great sounding car, then MS-8 is what you need and will be worth the wait.

Sorry it's taking so long. I hope it'll be worth the wait for all of you. It will be for me. I have 50 people at work asking me every day when they'll be able to get one.


----------



## kyheng

Well said Andy... 
Anyway I hope that MS-8's interface is simple and easy for people to configure around. Unlike some DSPs that require end user to have a laptop, PC or PDA to have full control. And a DSP is no the most important equipment in an audio setup. Still have to consider other equipments as well to make a system great.


----------



## kkant

lenkiatleong said:


> Nevertheless, i'm not sure how CDA9887 or PXE650 performs in a car environment with IMPRINT (Auddysey).


That's the problem. Audyssey works and sounds like ass in a car. Part of it is the lousy implementation, which does not allow you to set crossover points, and which sets those crossover points based on small signals. So even in the best case, you will get tons of nonlinear distortion when you turn it up, at levels far below what your drivers would be capable of if the crossovers were set properly.


----------



## kkant

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8 isn't some gold-plated, gold-PCB, million-dollar connector laden class-A multi-channel amplifier with all kinds of super esoteric crap designed to appeal only to enthusiasts. Those kinds of products make regular folks like me afraid to try audio as a hobby. I don't believe that in order to enjoy listening to a great sounding system, one has to be endowed by God with some heightened sensory perception and to be so enthusiastic about the gear that one would read (and take seriously) all the flowery prose intended to make religion out of science.


"Enthusiasts" is perhaps too general a term to use here. Not all enthusiasts are enthused about the infection of religiosity in audio.  



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8 is designed to make a great sounding system available to anyone who wants it at the most reasonable cost possible. There's plenty of high-end *thinking* packed into the little box and none of the components are compromised in the interest of shaving cost. We also haven't included any esoteric junk that inflates the cost for limited return. This is an exercise in reaching the point of diminishing return in parts cost and providing performance and ease of use that are without equal. If you're willing to stretch a bit in your opinion of what is and isn't required for great performance, MS-8 will be fun and eye-opening for you.


Well said. 



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm expecting another iteration in the mail on Monday to begin final testing of input use cases--testing of UN-EQ, Logic7, all of the audio controls, etc, while the engineers finish coding the auto EQ for the TI610 DSP. Once that's done, we'll send the design to our validation team for final testing against the product spec-to be sure there are no noises or misbehavior.


AWESOME. Thanks for the update, Andy. Looking good.


----------



## AWC

kkant said:


> That's the problem. Audyssey works and sounds like ass in a car. Part of it is the lousy implementation, which does not allow you to set crossover points, and which sets those crossover points based on small signals. So even in the best case, you will get tons of nonlinear distortion when you turn it up, at levels far below what your drivers would be capable of if the crossovers were set properly.


Audyssey corrects deficiencies. IME, if you've been careful to eliminate large deficiencies, Audyssey sounds grat. This statement is an opinion that not everybody agrees with. Many people like Audyssey...many don't. Its not the right idea to make bold statements as fact. I've found that, with the use of a center channel tuned by Imprint, that a remarkable result can be achieved.

I expect great things from the MS8. However, alot of us have already designed a system around it while in-waiting. If anybody wants try an auto-tune 5.1 system (whether by accident or design) while waiting for this, its here. I for one can't wait to have more conrol over the system as Andy is implementing. But an electronic crossover and a center channel will get you to a great waiting point with nearly the same control...if you already have a 9887 that is. 

Bottom line.Audyessey doesn't not suck. Its another tool that some like and some don't. I REALLY like Logic 7 for music and can't wait...but I've been waiting and it was time to find an option. I, in fact, found a solution.


----------



## kkant

AWC said:


> Audyssey corrects deficiencies.


No, it tries to correct deficiencies. And it doesn't work, if for no other reason than the one I described. Even a non-EQ'ed system with reasonable crossover points sounds better than the Alpine system. I dumped money into Audyssey and regretted it. Went back to my manual EQ's, and even with my mediocre tuning skill it sounded far better.

Auto-tuning has been a holy grail for a long time now. For me, the proof is in the pudding. The fact that the MS8 system won a nationwide SQ contest using practically stock components gives it a lot of credibility. I don't think any Audyssey-based car system would come close to accomplishing that.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> What if your center speaker won't play below 300 Hz and you have to rely on a phantom center image for sounds below 300 Hz? MS-8 steers information below the center channel high pass filter to the right and left and eventually the subwoofer so nothing is missing. However, the left and right midbass wont be time aligned for either seat.
> 
> Is it a big deal? Not really, unless you plan to use only a pair of tweeters as a center channel.


This is just awesome since it allows the use of a pro style efficient 6.5 midbass or smaller very efficient midrange as the center, which can have the same output as two 6.5" stereo midbass would have in that band when not using Logic7.


----------



## 14642

kyheng said:


> Well said Andy...
> Anyway I hope that MS-8's interface is simple and easy for people to configure around. Unlike some DSPs that require end user to have a laptop, PC or PDA to have full control.


No laptop required.


----------



## 14642

kyheng said:


> And a DSP is no the most important equipment in an audio setup.


Yes it is! :laugh:


----------



## kyheng

Is good that atlast I heard of some new high performance DSP not using any external source for tuning process after the most debatable DSP that release recently.


----------



## lenkiatleong

Thanks for the status update on MS8 production. I hope that Mr. Dinesh Paliwal would not force you to release first and patch later. Anyway, can MS8 firmware be updated by owners with ease if needed?
Can you release some information on typical car setup so that we can get ready for MS8? For example, most sedan car owners has 2 way component speakers in front and rear with no subwoofer. So this would take up only 4 channels from MS8. Under utilize right? 
As i am using a MPV, i hope that you could release some info or system configuration to hook up the head unit to MS8. 
From your posting, i have to change my front L,C and R speakers in order to get the same frequency response and etc.. At home, i am using PSB stratus gold for my L,C and R speakers. All the mids and tweets are the same model. Therefore, i appreciate what you are trying to drive at. I am looking at GTi 660 for L and R but i have problem to select the center speaker. I am not sure which center will complement/match GTi660 sound dynamics. Or maybe you can give a hint of which JBL range of speakers that i could look at for my L, C and R.
Alternatively, it would be great if you could tell us your testing setup. I am sure you have lots of setup for validation/testing. I for one would not mind buying the same setup as yours. This would be the closest i could get to the championship sound that MS8 delivered in SBN 2007, i hope. Pls don't ask me to buy the same car as yours though.


----------



## lenkiatleong

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Car audio enthusiasts typically prefer a strong and stable center image and OE consumers are less critical regarding imaging. There's an ongoing fight about where the center image should appear. I believe--after 25 years of building cars for customers--that it should appear in the center of the dashboard (or the hood, if possible) no matter which seat you sit in. Some of the folks who build OE systems believe the center image should be directly in front of each listener. MS-8 is tuned so that the center is in the center. If you like it the other way, it's simple to adjust--just turn the center channel down a bit in the menu.


IMHO, its a matter of individual taste of music lovers where the center should be. When i first hear Mark Levinson in a Lexus, the singer is singing right to my nose on the front passenger seat!! But the soundstage is narrow though. I kind of love it. This is how one listen at home or live concert but the soundstage is much wider and further (not at my nose).
Then, back to my MPV. I had the singer singing in the middle of the dash and the musical instruments come lively from the whole dash-width of my MPV. This time my nose was spared. Well, i take it as buying a side seat in a live concert and it still sounds great! Have to compromise right, we are in a car!!
In sum, ultimate center in my opinion is still coming from the listeners front and the soundstage should go out of the car window!! But as of todays technology, we are still far off the mark, right Andy??


----------



## kyheng

Well, if there's an equipment released and don't have much problem, why 1 need to update firmware? This is not Microsoft products, need to update patches every now and then. And after spend some time to dig threads here, DSP which can update firmware just have some small problems.


----------



## t3sn4f2

kyheng said:


> Well, if there's an equipment released and don't have much problem, *why 1 need to update firmware? *This is not Microsoft products, need to update patches every now and then. And after spend some time to dig threads here, DSP which can update firmware just have some small problems.


For _upgrades_ not _updates_


----------



## lenkiatleong

kyheng said:


> Well, if there's an equipment released and don't have much problem, why 1 need to update firmware? This is not Microsoft products, need to update patches every now and then. And after spend some time to dig threads here, DSP which can update firmware just have some small problems.


I am crossing my finger that MS8 do not require updates. Based on Andy's reply, he's bent on getting everything right before releasing it to the market. This is a plus.
It would be good if Andy has plan for upgrades so that owners of MS8 could feel that their investment is well protected and is "future proof". We will never know what new Logic 7 technology could come out in the next few months/years.
I have something on my left hand column. Why don't Andy capitalize on Mark Levinson technology and instead chooses Lexicon Logic 7 for MS8? It seems that Harman group is not harnessing its technologies to the fullest and reinvent more wheels. I don't mind buying MS8 that could give me what ML has given Lexus but of course with lower price components and etc.. There isn't any product in the aftermarket that could replicate/match ML in a Lexus. Not Audison BitOne nor 3Sixty.2 nor Alpine products. If only Harman group could come out with one product like ML in the aftermarket......With this, one could choose the settings. For example, when i'm alone in the car, i would set the center at the middle of dash and get a wide soundstage. When my whole family is in the car, i would set it so that everyone will enjoy the center in front of them in every seat!! I know that i'm asking too much for a small price.
So, lets see what MS8 could really do and i hope to see it this year. Audison BitOne is getting inroad now in this region. Many installers are getting rid of their Alpine 701 ex-stock and are beginning to accumulate BitOne!!


----------



## kyheng

t3sn4f2 said:


> For _upgrades_ not _updates_


My bad... But then again if MS-8 is good enough, with what we have most on Alpine's F#1 or Pioneer ODR, upgrade or update is no more important. Sometimes I feel that by adding some PC interface for the tuning is junk.


----------



## kyheng

Cost effective is the thing we must see. Just take Bit1 as example, no doubt that it got a good codec, but the opamps spoilt some people's will to buy. It just using junk opamps. With that price tag, I would expecting some better opamps used.


----------



## 14642

MS-8 can be updated via USB. Whether or not upgrades will be available I can't say at this point. The capability is there, but we're not planning any additional software modules at this point.


----------



## lenkiatleong

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8 can be updated via USB. Whether or not upgrades will be available I can't say at this point. The capability is there, but we're not planning any additional software modules at this point.


Hi Andy,
I am still sourcing for center speaker and i would like to get the same model for my left and right too so that the sound field in front is uniform and seamless.
I look thru the range of JBL speakers but i do not have the luxury to hear them all over here. Therefore, i would appreciate if you could recommend me some that is acceptable to you that matches MS8. Obviously, i trust your judgement as you and your team has won countless trophies in competition.
I am not sure if you are allow to recommend or not but i hope you could.
I am looking at JBL P452 coaxial but i am not sure if its warm sounding or not.
Please advise.
Cheers
Len


----------



## flomofo

I still hope I can wait another year or so...

Any idea now on the final dimensions of the main unit? I want to make sure I leave enough room in my cars enclosure to make sure it fits...


----------



## USC_Gamecock

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Nothing will be damaged and the clipping may be inaudible anyway--especially if it happens only on transients. If you play Bass MEchanik at 4V, it'll be nasty, but turning down the volume a bit will also work. Another option is to set the max output of the source with its volume control and use MS-8's.


So what you're saying is you don't recommend allowing an input greater than 2V into the MS8? I mean, clipping is something that we try and avoid at all costs right? For example, if the head unit has 8V pre-outs, then set the head unit volume around 20 - 25%, then use the MS8 volume control, right?


----------



## 14642

If the head unit has 8V preouts, use the high-level inputs.


----------



## nanomidaz

When is the release date on this beauty?


----------



## dsh2009

nanomidaz said:


> When is the release date on this beauty?


BUMP!

i am close to purchasing the Alpine H650, but if the JBL is going to do, and be, all that they say it is, maybe i'll wait.

however i am not really into waiting another 6 months or year.

right now i have a little-known but awesome unit, the Alto Mobile UCS Pro, at the heart of my system. car is a 2001 325i sedan, stock CD HU, Focal Polyglass 2-way up front, Image Dymanics IDQ8 sub, and stock rear fills. the rear fills are running off the stock amp, while the Focals and IDQ get their juice from a couple of old-school (and awesome) Soundstream Reference amps.

i've got an upgrade bug up my butt right now so i want to re-vamp the system with either the H650 or the JBL piece and replace the focal Polyglass 6.5" drivers up front with Focal Polykevlars.

anyway, probably too much information (= too much coffee) - the bottom linie is:

when is this thing REALLY gonna be available? 

thanks!

-d


----------



## nanomidaz

I've been doing a little research..
JBL is not going to release it before around September.
But what will the price be?


----------



## dkm201

I will be shocked if JBL ever releases this.


----------



## left channel

yeah, i'm still waiting for my iD1!


----------



## less

300Z said:


> There are no digital inputs.


Sorry bro, you lost me right there. While the unit may be great in other ways, I'm solely looking for a processor with digital inputs and one that doesn't assume I am a moron in the first place. I've been running a digital media player for a year now and could have made any of the mistakes you refer to, as if most people are REALLY to dumb to know, and have been able to convert every file I've wanted to use through the digital input on my DRZ9255 to a playable format with ease and the use of one simple software program.

I'm very sad to learn that JBL continues to insist on making products for the masses when a little extra investment could have made their product useful at all skill/knowledge levels. I guess the assumption is that there are already products out there for people who need digital inputs though, and if that puts your product at a lower price point by avoiding the extra expense of dealing with digital inputs... well then your product may well serve its intended market.

Still a shame though =)

Less


----------



## t3sn4f2

less said:


> Sorry bro, you lost me right there. While the unit may be great in other ways, I'm solely looking for a processor with digital inputs and one that doesn't assume I am a moron in the first place. I've been running a digital media player for a year now and could have made any of the mistakes you refer to, as if most people are REALLY to dumb to know, and have been able to convert every file I've wanted to use through the digital input on my DRZ9255 to a playable format with ease and the use of one simple software program.
> 
> I'm very sad to learn that JBL continues to insist on making products for the masses when a little extra investment could have made their product useful at all skill/knowledge levels. I guess the assumption is that there are already products out there for people who need digital inputs though, and if that puts your product at a lower price point by avoiding the extra expense of dealing with digital inputs... well then your product may well serve its intended market.
> 
> Still a shame though =)
> 
> Less


I know you like mods, so.........

Post #292-296


----------



## AWC

Andy said he'd tell us how to mod a digital signal into it. It may be for the masses but he's hooking us up at least.


----------



## 89grand

I'm just going to go with the Alpine H650. This JBL unit, while interesting, appears as though it will never actually get released.


----------



## dsh2009

89grand said:


> I'm just going to go with the Alpine H650. This JBL unit, while interesting, appears as though it will never actually get released.


ya, i'm leaning that way myself. it's really a shame though this JBL unit looks like just what i am looking for. maybe i'll run the Alpine for a while and then if the JBL ever actually materializes in the real world i'll consider it as a replacement.

-d


----------



## AWC

the left sub channel will act as a center if you want it to...on that 650. good luck.


----------



## matdotcom2000

AWC said:


> the left sub channel will act as a center if you want it to...on that 650. good luck.


There is no left sub channel on the 650, so therefore no center channel


----------



## 14642

less said:


> I'm very sad to learn that JBL continues to insist on making products for the masses when a little extra investment could have made their product useful at all skill/knowledge levels. I guess the assumption is that there are already products out there for people who need digital inputs though, and if that puts your product at a lower price point by avoiding the extra expense of dealing with digital inputs... well then your product may well serve its intended market.
> 
> Still a shame though =)
> 
> Less


Less,
I'm sorry that MS-8 won't meet your requirement for a digital input. We didn't remove that from the spec because of the cost of the input, we removed it because the inclusion of a digital input would have caused a bunch of confusion for many consumers who use that as a qualifier, but who are unable to understand its use. MS-8 runs at 48k. PCM is 44.1. Alglrithms that are designed to provide spatial processing don't freak out because the samples don't match, but digital EQ does. The real benefit of digital input is noise immunity and we've chosed to deal with that in other ways. 

Because the device doesn't include a feature YOU require doesn't mean that it's a low-end POS designed only for neophytes and the rest of the unknowing mainstream. It means that we've made a conscious decision to provide a device that does what it does and provides a high quality experience for those who wish to build a system for it. There are far too many "technology" devices that include every option and attempt to appeal to every use case and every consumer. Those devices often do many things poorly and notthing well at the expense of cost and complexity of setup. That sounds like a bad deal and one that I'm not signing up for. Building a device that does what it does well is the most important criterion for a succssful MS-8 and that's why it's taking so damn long to finish it. Sorry about that, but getting it right and providing clear instrucions for being successful in using it are the right decisions. 

The fact that MS-8 doesn't meet your criteria simply means that your use case falls outside of the use cases that we are determined to satisfy with a high quality experience. That doesn't make it a low end piece of gear or indicate that the brand made a decision to not to appeal to skilled users. Your criteria set the bar for your purchase decision, but not for all skilled users. 

I'm pretty knowledgeable and I'm eager to purchase an MS-8.


----------



## Sassmastersq

LOL like you'll have to buy one... you'll probly get the only finished one after they cancel the project


----------



## JayinMI

Is the JBL Internal code for this "Project: Unicorn"? 

j/k...

I hope it comes out and is all that you say it is...
but I'm not waiting that long 

I'm having to wait long enough for the new batch of Bit Ones 

Jay


----------



## donkeypunch22

Sassmastersq, JBL can send a finished MS8 unit to Ontario when you guys get independence... oh wait, that isn't happening, cause no one gives a $%^*.


----------



## Oliver

nanomidaz said:


> I've been doing a little research..
> JBL is not going to release it before around September.
> But what will the price be?


:laugh:
the/12/of never

Add $10.00 a month for when it was mentioned til it was released and you'll be close to the price.

I've been looking forward to this since I was less than 50 yrs old, I'll be 51 in september


----------



## Sassmastersq

donkeypunch22 said:


> Sassmastersq, JBL can send a finished MS8 unit to Ontario when you guys get independence... oh wait, that isn't happening, cause no one gives a $%^*.


Wow.... that has to be the dumbest thing I've ever seen on the internet.... you are my new hero.

I think the relase date is in the name... MS8, so sometime after we changeover to using letters instead of numbers to indicate what year it is, JBL will finally finish it.


----------



## tspence73

Andy,

Any chance this technology will spill over into the Harmon Kardon home theater receivers??? I think when perfected this would clean Audissey's clock in terms of accuracy and quality.


----------



## 14642

The autotune in MS-8 is designed specifically to do cars, where there is no reverberant field and where all reflections are early reflections. In a car, there's no need to distinguish between speaker response and room response, because we hear it as one response. EZ-SetEQ, which is a feature of some of the higher-end HK receivers is based on the same basic process and uses a similar algorithm. but includes a near-field measurement designed to correct speaker response and an additional set o fmeasurement designed to correct room modes. Unlike MS-8, it's already available.


----------



## tspence73

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The autotune in MS-8 is designed specifically to do cars, where there is no reverberant field and where all reflections are early reflections. In a car, there's no need to distinguish between speaker response and room response, because we hear it as one response. EZ-SetEQ, which is a feature of some of the higher-end HK receivers is based on the same basic process and uses a similar algorithm. but includes a near-field measurement designed to correct speaker response and an additional set o fmeasurement designed to correct room modes. Unlike MS-8, it's already available.


Then finish this damn thing man! Put the whip to the rowers!


----------



## t3sn4f2

tick tick tick

?


----------



## dsh2009

t3sn4f2 said:


> tick tick tick
> 
> ?


ya, i wonder if this is still even for real? perhaps with things being the way they are with the economy and all they have scrapped/sidelined the thing.

-d


----------



## Sassmastersq

I already told you, it'll be released in the year MS-8

whenever that is :shrug:


----------



## Abaddon

I've been waiting for this for ~ 2 years now.

I've made use with a JL Cleansweep, Separate crossovers, and separate EQ's till now.

Finally just bought a Rockford 3Sixty and getting this damn build finished... Maybe if the MS-8 is finally released, I'll give it a shot.. not likely though... I have fears that this is going to cross into $1000+ territory based on the hours spent on it.

It's just not worth it anymore; and I cant stand waiting any longer.

EDIT: I should probably remove the "MS-8 Coming Eventually" from my sig....


----------



## tspence73

Okay,

I would like to make a request for the MS-8. I would like you guys to include multiple custom EQ presets that can be used at the touch of a button. Like, put like 7 or 8 buttons on the user interface for stored custom EQ curve presets to be recalled as needed. That would be cool.


----------



## 14642

tspence73 said:


> Okay,
> 
> I would like to make a request for the MS-8. I would like you guys to include multiple custom EQ presets that can be used at the touch of a button. Like, put like 7 or 8 buttons on the user interface for stored custom EQ curve presets to be recalled as needed. That would be cool.


 
Already included, but selected through the menu.


----------



## tspence73

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Already included, but selected through the menu.


Okay. Well, on future generations of the MS-8, keep in mind that easy-access buttons on the front interface would be better than having to scroll through a menu. I don't want you guys trying to delay this thing at all. If that happened people on this site would hire ninja's to kill me for causing the delay.


----------



## 14642

I think the ninjas are already on your trail.


----------



## 86mr2

tspence73 said:


> If that happened people on this site would hire ninja's to kill *me for causing the delay*.


Delusions of grandeur much? :bash:


----------



## guitarsail

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I think the ninjas are already on your trail.


Bwahahaha....


even funnier coming from andy.









hahaha...I damn near spewed pepsi on my keyboard...


----------



## Lanson

guitarsail said:


> Bwahahaha....
> 
> 
> even funnier coming from andy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hahaha...I damn near spewed pepsi on my keyboard...



Word. And when I saw this post come up (thanks to subscription) from the dead, I thought it was because it actually was coming out soon. Then I saw 'spence's post...then Andy's post...and well it just got hilarious.


----------



## AdamTaylor

hopefully this will be out soon..... it would make a killer birthday or christmas preasent (both december)


----------



## tspence73

AdamTaylor said:


> hopefully this will be out soon..... it would make a killer birthday or christmas preasent (both december)


I have my money in the bank waiting for it right now. Anytime it's ready to rollout. Just remember that Andy.


----------



## [email protected]




----------



## matdotcom2000

AdamTaylor said:


> hopefully this will be out soon..... it would make a killer birthday or christmas preasent (both december)


Is this an old post from 2007???????

:laugh:


----------



## Sassmastersq

JBL = JUST BASTARDLY LATE!!!


----------



## 14642

Alright, Wisenhimers...


----------



## Sassmastersq

still... no product....

I reiterate... the year MS-8... sometime after we changeover to using letters instead of numbers to denote what year it is


----------



## michaelsil1

Sassmastersq said:


> still... no product....
> 
> I reiterate... the year MS-8... sometime after we changeover to using letters instead of numbers to denote what year it is




MMIX


----------



## [email protected]

Sassmastersq said:


> JBL = JUST BASTARDLY LATE!!!


Werd


----------



## Sassmastersq

michaelsil1 said:


> MMIX


I am aware of roman numerals... I'm referring to a completely new system that hasn't been invented yet where MS-8 would be a year sometime far into the future.


----------



## michaelsil1

Sassmastersq said:


> I am aware of roman numerals... I'm referring to a completely new system that hasn't been invented yet where MS-8 would be a year sometime far into the future.


I was playing. :jester:

I predict that the unit might be available around Christmas time (didn't say what year).


----------



## bboyvek

I was selected to use an ms-8 prototype!!!







JK.


----------



## tspence73

You know. It would just be poetic justice if I got to use a prototype.  I imagine the whole forum would be protesting in the streets. haha They already think my Frankenstein system is an abomination to car audio.


----------



## Sassmastersq

I'm hoping I can get one as a retirement present... (I'm 30 now) maybe I'll be able to get the first one for sale in canada then.... 

of course right now I've got great sound without any processing... MS-8 is a complete waste to me.


----------



## 14642

Sassmastersq said:


> I'm hoping I can get one as a retirement present... (I'm 30 now) maybe I'll be able to get the first one for sale in canada then....
> 
> of course right now I've got great sound without any processing... MS-8 is a complete waste to me.


Unfortunately, they won't be for sale in Canada because the power supply emits a strange supersonic signal similar to the 17th (and most potent) harmonic of the moose mating call. Just lookin' out for you, Sassmaster.


----------



## Sassmastersq

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Unfortunately, they won't be for sale anywhere because it's just a big joke that has gotten out of hand, and it never actually existed, you caught us sassmaster.


fixed


----------



## donkeypunch22

Andy, I already told Sassmasterq when the MS8 will be available in Canada.


----------



## Sassmastersq

riiiiiight... you're useful and funny post about "independance" the stupidest thing ever written on the internet LOL. at least try to be funny or contribute.


----------



## donkeypunch22

You just said my post was, "useful and funny..."! 


It's all in jess, Sassmastersq, if you can't take the heat, then get the @#$% out the kitchen... or at least get the @#$% out of Andy's grill.


----------



## 14642

No need to defend me, although I appreciate it. 

It's far easier to be a naysayer than to be helpful. No biggie.


----------



## TXwrxWagon

Sassmastersq said:


> I'm hoping I can get one as a retirement present... (I'm 30 now) maybe I'll be able to get the first one for sale in canada then....
> 
> of course right now I've got great sound without any processing... MS-8 is a complete waste to me.



then why follow the thread & post... if its no worth to you? just to be an Ass?

Rob


----------



## donkeypunch22

Actually, he's being one of these:










Only joking, Sassmastersq...


----------



## IBcivic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Unfortunately, they won't be for sale in Canada because the power supply emits a strange supersonic signal similar to the 17th (and most potent) harmonic of the moose mating call. Just lookin' out for you, Sassmaster.


^^^:laugh:


----------



## vinny

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Unfortunately, they won't be for sale in Canada because the power supply emits a strange supersonic signal similar to the 17th (and most potent) harmonic of the moose mating call. Just lookin' out for you, Sassmaster.


Andy, I have tried the Alpine 650 and the 360.2 and neither satisfied. Neither offer the level of control that I expected. A product in such a niche should have allowed the user to fine tune to his/her tastes instead of offering a few pre-programmed alternates. Will the MS-8?


----------



## Wheres The Butta

I'm in the market to buy a processor in the near future. Is this one really as idiot-proof as it sounds? I'm the idiot that needs help lol. I expect some work tuning either way, but this sounds like it would make it alot easier, especially for a novice like me. 

Sorry to jump into this late, but after reading a little bit I had to ask.


----------



## Sassmastersq

vinny said:


> Andy, I have tried the Alpine 650 and the 360.2 and neither satisfied. Neither offer the level of control that I expected. A product in such a niche should have allowed the user to fine tune to his/her tastes instead of offering a few pre-programmed alternates. Will the MS-8?





bd5034 said:


> I'm in the market to buy a processor in the near future. Is this one really as idiot-proof as it sounds? I'm the idiot that needs help lol. I expect some work tuning either way, but this sounds like it would make it alot easier, especially for a novice like me.
> 
> Sorry to jump into this late, but after reading a little bit I had to ask.


unfortunately, the MS-8 will do nothing, since it is STILL unavailable, and unfinished. Right now it is a pipe dream.

maybe one day it will be a good paperweight, or at least the prototypes will.... don't hold your breath for anything, ever.


----------



## 14642

Hey Sassmaster,
What's your problem? Why the need to be a constant naysayer? Obviously the product isn't ready yet. Is it necessary to follow up every few posts with the same insult? What's to be gained from all of this?


----------



## PsychoZX

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hey Sassmaster,
> What's your problem? Why the need to be a constant naysayer? Obviously the product isn't ready yet. Is it necessary to follow up every few posts with the same insult? What's to be gained from all of this?


Obviously nothing other than wanting to stir up controversy. Especially considering he has already stated that he has no desire to get one when it comes out anyway. Some people just get off on being a dick on the internet.


----------



## dkh

I seriously hope this lives up to my hopes and expectations as currently I'm using a Pioneer ODR unit that treats me like a 10yr old with limits on xover points etc.

I'm sooo looking forward to a proper in-car processor.


----------



## kyheng

I'm not a big fan of JBL products, basicly. But then if JBL do making some good products, I would like to try it too. So why not we just cross our fingers and wait for the best from Andy. Remember, we already seen some failures on Bit1 begining on this year and it do post some problem to some of us here. As recover back, warranty claims is really a pain(not yet mention time wasted on waiting for the new unit)


----------



## michaelsil1

kyheng said:


> I'm not a big fan of JBL products, basicly. But then if JBL do making some good products, I would like to try it too. So why not we just cross our fingers and wait for the best from Andy. Remember, we already seen some failures on Bit1 begining on this year and it do post some problem to some of us here. As recover back, warranty claims is really a pain(not yet mention time wasted on waiting for the new unit)


JBL has been making *Great* products for many years.


----------



## Swagger

Andy, I know you’re hesitant to speculate on a release date after last year’s postponement, but could you throw us a bone with a ballpark estimate? I’ve been living with a Cleansweep and summing module since early 2007 when Gary told my installer the MS-8 was the best solution for my application but unfortunately wouldn’t be out for a few months. I know most people in this thread are in the same boat. I’ve been through 3 Cleansweeps and 2 summing modules in the past two-plus years and the summing module is on the fritz again. Based on what I’ve read, the MS-8 is perfect for me. I’m just hoping to find out if I’ll be installing it in my current car, or my next one. Thanks!


----------



## kyheng

michaelsil1 : Yup I know that JBL do make great products... Butthen in Malaysia, the price is been fried high even with lower end series. This is 1 major setback.


----------



## Sassmastersq

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hey Sassmaster,
> What's your problem? Why the need to be a constant naysayer? Obviously the product isn't ready yet. Is it necessary to follow up every few posts with the same insult? What's to be gained from all of this?


show us a product, or give a firm release date, or this is all just a joke.

I honestly think this is all just a joke that got out of hand, and I don't want people waiting for a product that will likely never be released. Think IDone here.... 

this thread has been 2 years of "not yet, but soon we hope" It's really sad to see people getting a hard on for a product that they've never seen, nobody has really ever seen, but is going to be "perfect" for them.

an imaginary product is always perfect, but completely useless.


----------



## donkeypunch22

I'm going to try to put one of these up after each of Sassmastersq's posts on this thread:


----------



## Lanson

Sassmastersq said:


> show us a product, or give a firm release date, or this is all just a joke.
> 
> I honestly think this is all just a joke that got out of hand, and I don't want people waiting for a product that will likely never be released. Think IDone here....
> 
> this thread has been 2 years of "not yet, but soon we hope" It's really sad to see people getting a hard on for a product that they've never seen, nobody has really ever seen, but is going to be "perfect" for them.
> 
> an imaginary product is always perfect, but completely useless.



Whatever. 

Let me tell you a little story about what happens when you rush a technologically advanced product into production before it is ready... 

(I've generalized the info contained here to stay employed)
The company I work for produces a technology for a company that makes car scan tools. Anyway, the scan tool product is a very advanced, very expensive machine. It is one of the most feature-laden, most _theoretically_ capable things out there to diagnose cars. Because of the way our company provides services to this scan tool, I get to hear directly from the end-users (car technicians.) 

So this thing came out officially last year, after many years of fundamental engineering work...and a surprisingly short time of beta testing and tuning due to overwhelming demand for it. There was also a push to release it to compete with another brand of scan tool with similar features, and play head-to-head. The short version of what has transpired since its release is that essentially the tool has had massive, massive problems for most of the users. In some cases, it has made the tool unusable, and MORE of a time expense to techs than a time saver. 

Now it has been a LONG journey with customers and their complaints about this tool, and after many software rewrites, customer tool replacements, and a few heated discussions about how to make it better, it HAS gotten better. Of course there are a lot of customers that have such a bitter taste in their mouths from the experience that they will probably never buy from this particular brand ever again. It is unfortunate, but we all know it happens. 

The moral of this particular story is...if this tool would have been delayed a bit for more extensive beta testing, and if during the testing the flaws were fixed properly, the end story would be different for this tool. Sure there is the risk of another company's product coming out and beating yours while you are in development. And sure, as you fix the bugs new ones pop up. But, the RIGHT thing to do for the sake of your customers is exactly what Mr. JBL is doing right here. To release a product that doesn't reflect your company's best intentions and abilities makes it worthless, even if it comes out faster. Yeah, I really want an MS-8 to replace my 3sixty.2, but I'll wait until it is right. The last thing I need is another headache in designing a proper audio system, right?

Carry on, Andy. You're doing a great thing and I want one of these machines when they release. But I'd rather you get it just the way you want to before it leaves your hands, if that's OK by you.


----------



## kyheng

Second to fourthmeal. When a product is known to have problem(even small one), why need to release it and taking the risk to recover it back from the market? Cost will incured and it won't be cheap. End of day this cost may put back to end consumer on the next "good" release by either selling it expensive or change some parts inside to cheaper components.
The good day to day exanple is Sony notebook's battery, always got problem. And their notebook is not cheap.


----------



## Sassmastersq

I completely understand working all the bugs out and making the product work properly... but don't "release" it 2 years ahead of when people can actually purchase it..


----------



## Stel

Sassmastersq said:


> I completely understand working all the bugs out and making the product work properly... but don't "release" it 2 years ahead of when people can actually purchase it..


It was not "released" in any way.

I for one appreciate the insight and discussion some of these employees have been giving us.


----------



## Sassmastersq

it was used in IASCA competition at the 2006 world finals, which was the "release" of it to show everyone what it was capable of...


----------



## tspence73

Sassmastersq said:


> it was used in IASCA competition at the 2006 world finals, which was the "release" of it to show everyone what it was capable of...


Agreed in that a lot of people would take the beta version of that processor if it was capable of winning SQ comps. I get the feeling it was close to being a full product then someone who was very important in making it quit or left and that severely stalled the last part of the project. 

There is no doubt that with the features and methods laid out in this thread, this product is BY FAR the most advanced mobile audio processor ever produced. Waiting for any final beta testing to complete is very important. The last thing JBL wants is for a rash of bad reviews or problems from various users.


----------



## ErinH

Sassmastersq said:


> I completely understand working all the bugs out and making the product work properly...


one word (well, two words depending on how you spell it )

bit one

'nuff said.


----------



## AdamTaylor

but the bit one dosnt have the self setting ability for the lazy people


----------



## donkeypunch22

I think what Bikini is saying is, the bit one came out before all the bugs were worked out. Hence, the referenced quote in his post.


----------



## ErinH

AdamTaylor said:


> but the bit one dosnt have the self setting ability for the lazy people


look at what I quoted above...

I was referencing the bit one's premature release. From that stance, I think JBL would rather piss people off by holding off on the release than piss them off by releasing it too soon only to have to issue recalls and send out 3 versions of their product.

*coming from a guy who has had all three versions of the bit one and will still use the latest*


----------



## michaelsil1

AdamTaylor said:


> but the bit one doesn't have the self setting ability for the lazy people


The top of the line unit is supposed to. I don't know if it's still in the works or not; there was initially three units planned for release.


----------



## VP Electricity

On the one hand, no one wants a product to ship before it is ready. 

We also don't can't disagree that the product shouldn't have been announced so soon. 

I suspect that the product drawing board has been wiped clean a few times, and the feature set has been redefined once or twice 

- Clean Sweeps and 360's sold FAR worse than expected, even before the downturn

- Car Stereo Dealers (the folks who have to be able to execute on a biz plan for a product, rather than members of this forum, who are not in the fat part of the curve) have demonstrated no capability to sell this category of product. They don't understand it, they don't know how to install it right, they don't know what it does - on average. 

- Harman probably has some OE issues to navigate as well. I've worked for companies in the aftermarket with an OE relationship, and I can tell you that there are some political issues to navigate. 

For example, Harman makes Logic 7, right? It's probably not too much to guess that Harman could make a MOST-to-RCA amplifier-emulating gateway, TECHNICALLY. But I suspect strongly that since the OE revenue is so much greater than the aftermarket revenue, and BMW, etc, would HATE for there to be such a gateway available, Andy can't offer that product commercially even though he could technically. There are probably some similar issues to navigate for this product. Maybe not...


----------



## kkant

AdamTaylor said:


> but the bit one dosnt have the self setting ability for the lazy people


Yeah, I hate all those lazy people who don't mine their own metal ore and build their speakers themselves. What a bunch of wusses.


----------



## kkant

michaelsil1 said:


> The top of the line [bit one] unit is supposed to.


Does it actually work well? Auto-correction has been tried before, but it only counts if it sounds good.


----------



## ErinH

I believe that bit one design was scrapped.


----------



## michaelsil1

bikinpunk said:


> I believe that bit one design was scrapped.


Bummer! 


That might be one of the problems JBL is having with there proposed unit.


----------



## Technic

I have not heard any auto-tune feature that I like yet, be in a car or in a home system...


----------



## michaelsil1

Technic said:


> I have not heard any auto-tune feature that I like yet, be in a car or in a home system...


If you can't tune it sure helps. :laugh:


----------



## 14642

Sassmastersq said:


> it was used in IASCA competition at the 2006 world finals, which was the "release" of it to show everyone what it was capable of...


It was SBN and it was clearly communicated to be a prototype--pre-production unit. 

What's done is done. Do I wish we had been able to develop this more quickly? Yes. Do I wish we had better understood how difficult this would be? Yes. Do I wish the first complete writing of code had been decipherable by someone other than the lone implementer of the invention? Yes. 

Can I undo the past? No. Will I agree to release a product that isn't finished? No. Can I be sure that when we have a release candidate that it will be perfect? No. Will some of you have issues with the design? Undoubtedly. Will it do everything everyone wants it to do. Certainly not.

Will it do what we promise it will do--make any car sound great, be easy to install, simple to tune and offer real tools for tweakers who want to customize? Absolutely...or I won't release it until it does. 

Sassmaster. Complain and insult all you want. I've taken heat from all sides for this program for seven years--From corporate management, business management, engineering, sales, retailers, consumers, family members (who want one) and Team JBL competitors. I have courteous, hopeful, dissapointed and nasty people emailing and calling me from all over the world. You're not the most insulting, nor are you the nastiest.


----------



## kkant

michaelsil1 said:


> That might be one of the problems JBL is having with there proposed unit.


I doubt it. The fact that JBL won first at SBN with a prototype means that they already have a viable approach. The fundamentals of the auto-correction are sound, as it were. More likely they are in the testing/QA stage, and that can take a while for any product--regardless of type.

Any more updates Andy? I think you mentioned a while back that you were doing some use case verification, right?


----------



## Oliver

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> It was SBN and it was clearly communicated to be a prototype--pre-production unit.
> 
> What's done is done. Do I wish we had been able to develop this more quickly? Yes. Do I wish we had better understood how difficult this would be? Yes. Do I wish the first complete writing of code had been decipherable by someone other than the lone implementer of the invention? Yes.
> 
> Can I undo the past? No. Will I agree to release a product that isn't finished? No. Can I be sure that when we have a release candidate that it will be perfect? No. Will some of you have issues with the design? Undoubtedly. Will it do everything everyone wants it to do. Certainly not.
> 
> Will it do what we promise it will do--make any car sound great, be easy to install, simple to tune and offer real tools for tweakers who want to customize? Absolutely...or I won't release it until it does.
> 
> Sassmaster. Complain and insult all you want. I've taken heat from all sides for this program for seven years--From corporate management, business management, engineering, sales, retailers, consumers, family members (who want one) and Team JBL competitors. I have courteous, hopeful, dissapointed and nasty people emailing and calling me from all over the world. You're not the most insulting, nor are you the nastiest.


Well said !!


----------



## Sassmastersq

I have never intended to be ther nastiest or most insulting, believe me, if that was the case, I could be. I just find the whole process distasteful, and I wonder if you really needed the publicity for a product you haven't even finished, probly more than 3 years before it will be available to you... I looked at some of the early posts in this thread, and quite a number of the early posters have left this board completely, and presumably have left car audio as a hobby... and they were bound bent and determined to have your unit. (ok, that sounded wrong somehow... but you know how it is)

anyways, I'd rather not know about it until it was finished, and then be impressed by it. Now, nothing it can do will impress me, because for the time it has taken to come to market, it better do my dishes, clean my car, and kill all of my enemies, as well as make my car sound better than anything ever imagined by gods or man. (if it can do all that, I'd be impressed)

I in no way want an unfinished product to be released, but in no way do I want the car audio community to hang its hat on a product that will solve it's problems, when that product may not ever be forthcoming.


----------



## tspence73

Sass,

In my experience you get more results with money than with vinegar. I have some money saved for my MS-8 Andy. Hurry this thing up.


----------



## 14642

I'd rather you not know about it until it's finished either, but I can't rewrite history (unlike so many school curriculum developers and politicians). Sorry about that.


----------



## VP Electricity

Auto-correction doesn't have to work well enough for us... it just has to work well enough to make the product commercially viable in the install bat - which means there is no RTA and no way to diagnose the system, and the interface still has to work. 

I have one way to address that, interested to see else comes out.


----------



## instalher

boy this is like pulling teeth hey andy....but i gotta ask. the harmen office in new york shut down due to finacial problems, and your countries economy dosent look like it will turn around anytime soon. has this effected the release of the ms-8 in the way of
1.) no more r/d funding
2.) no more funding period for completion
3.) no more man hrs to be spared for your pet project.
with your company being in the situation that its in i cant see how you can put out a limited selling product that will never pay dividens to the company.... so we are broke but we are going to spend more time and money on something that wont benefit us????????????
is the ms-8 done and we are just waiting on finalizing patents,marketing, and getting the manual, and other litature printed up? please shed some light on these thoughts. and iam in no way bashing or trying to insult jbl, harmen or yourself, i have spoke with you on the phone, was a member of team jbl cnd, and still run your product in my 05-06-08 iasca/usaci sq national winning civic... so my blood does bleed orange....


----------



## VP Electricity

Yeah, how different is project justification under the new regime?


----------



## instalher

GO ANDY GO!!


----------



## donkeypunch22

Ah, I keep missing Sassmastersq!!! But I'll put this up just for him... till he's satisfied, cause if Sassmastersq "wanted to", he could be the nastiest or most insulting!!! 

N!**@ please...


----------



## 14642

Instalher,
I'm not going to comment publically on the health of the company, except to say that MS-8 is better-resourced and funded now than at any point in the history of its development. It's no mystery to anyone who has access to any industry market data or research that traditional car audio is in decline (speakers, amps and subs) in developed markets. The future of car audio aftermarket depends on products like MS-8. In fact, one of the main reasons to finish it is to complete the API and SDK so the 10 or so modules that make up MS-8 can be reused in many other products. Work has begun on several products and software applications that will be part of the new MS line, but I'll demonstrate that I HAVE learned from the past mistake of letting the cat out of the bag too early.

There are plenty of compelling reasons to finish the product.


----------



## Babs

Won't hear any smack from me...  For either the MS-8 being late or having issues in design requiring "back to formula" or any of that. I'm actually kinda glad the cat was out of the bag and there's other options at least in the works. 

When you think about it.. Just the knowledge that JBL's working on a big integration auto-tuning processor has literally changed the market... I'm guessing this has been for the better for the consumers. Example being the Bit One where they've really had to step up to the plate and get it to market, even if relying a bit on some real-world trials and diligent DIYMA member troubleshooting to get early issues detected and addressed. 

Trick is, having a ground-breaking OEM product but still managing somehow to keep it simple. Shoot, I'd love to have a completely manually tuned version of the MS-8 processor only / no int amps, much less all the auto-tuning... Full screen crossover, TA and EQ tuning and easy OEM integration while providing solid SQ components doing the work.


----------



## vinny

bd5034 said:


> I'm in the market to buy a processor in the near future. Is this one really as idiot-proof as it sounds? I'm the idiot that needs help lol. I expect some work tuning either way, but this sounds like it would make it alot easier, especially for a novice like me.


Actually the Alpine 650 is quite an idiot. While it allows you a selection from a few curves (4 I think) that is it. You have no control over TA etc.. and cannot adjust it to personal tastes. You can trick it though. For example once we realised that it EQed the sound to be too bright for us we set the XO on the components to +3db and after the Alpine was done we set the XO to -3db so that we could get the level of brightness (or lack thereof) that we prefered.

The RF 360.2 is not much different. I was hoping that the MS8 and it's derivatives (there will be an MS 7, and MS5 wont there Andy?) would allow the user more control over the default settings.


----------



## shadowfactory

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> It's no mystery to anyone who has access to any industry market data or research that traditional car audio is in decline (speakers, amps and subs) in developed markets. The future of car audio aftermarket depends on products like MS-8.


I heartily agree with this, aftermarket head units are fading out fast, as the market for them is rapidly declining.

Also, it seems like a lot of the complainers and release date naggers in this thread just don't know how to read. 

I remember the last update you gave the MS-8 had been sent to the 'testing team' or something like that, to verify its compatibility with the literally hundreds or thousands of other aftermarket products it might be asked to interact with in a variety of cars, and also to make sure there weren't any more undiscovered bugs hiding anywhere, and to finalize all the documentation that went along with it. 

I also remember you saying this phase takes several months if not more, and after that I would imagine any final revisions would have to be sent to manufacturing plants and any production and QC issues worked out after that, with adequate time allowed for enough units to be produced for a full scale product launch. 

With all this in mind, I expect it sometime before Christmas maybe, but aside from that it seems like a lot of it is still up in the air with regards to what potential problems may come up in the meantime, so anything could happen. 

Does this sound accurate?


----------



## Babs

vinny said:


> Actually the Alpine 650 is quite an idiot. While it allows you a selection from a few curves (4 I think) that is it. You have no control over TA etc.. and cannot adjust it to personal tastes. You can trick it though. For example once we realised that it EQed the sound to be too bright for us we set the XO on the components to +3db and after the Alpine was done we set the XO to -3db so that we could get the level of brightness (or lack thereof) that we prefered.
> 
> The RF 360.2 is not much different. I was hoping that the MS8 and it's derivatives (there will be an MS 7, and MS5 wont there Andy?) would allow the user more control over the default settings.


Brings up a good point... The 3sixty.2 (.1 rarely mentioned - minimal EQ only piece), is a completely manual processor except for the de-EQ and summing business, but full featured, though channel-quantity challenged.

What I'd love to hear is a head to head review / comparison between all the integration processors for catagories of channel qty / system potential, versitility (how well it plays with various car signals), SQ, tune features, tune performance, goods, bads, etc. Sofar I've got:

3sixty.2 / PXE-H650
(reviews are fairly dated and haven't seen a head to head 3sixty with the H650)

MS-8 compared to above
(when it comes out so this compare might take a while)

Bit One 
(I expect this one will be the one to beat in SQ)

Cleansweep
(Is that thing even a contender.. It just sums and de-EQ's for premium typical JL coin)

Maybe some Audiocontrol pieces
(guessing their analog gear has superb SQ, though limited processing.. Why they don't do TA in their digital gear I dunno)


----------



## ARCuhTEK

Babs said:


> 3sixty.2 / PXE-H650
> (reviews are fairly dated and haven't seen a head to head 3sixty with the H650)
> 
> MS-8 compared to above
> (when it comes out so this compare might take a while)
> 
> Bit One
> (I expect this one will be the one to beat in SQ)
> 
> Cleansweep
> (Is that thing even a contender.. It just sums and de-EQ's for premium typical JL coin)
> 
> Maybe some Audiocontrol pieces
> (guessing their analog gear has superb SQ, though limited processing.. Why they don't do TA in their digital gear I dunno)


Dont forget the ZAPCO DSP-6

I am not hands on familiar with the H650, but I am willing to bet the fight comes down to DSP6, Bit One.1 and the MS-8 (going merely on prediction). Those that are channel handicapped may get left behind in mere consideration. The DSP6 for example, is a great piece, but I see people shutting it down because the Bit One.1 has more channels. SQ wise the DSP6 is no secret, especially here. Still a contender.

I read this thread with hopes of trickling information on progress of the process. But for now, my appetite is calmed with the Bit One.1. No complaints. But the MS-8 sure has a lot of eyes on it.


----------



## Babs

Oh yeah.. The Zapco products.. The DC Ref amps by themselves also would be good integration product review fodder. I don't know why but their stuff just scares me.. I think it's just all the proprietary names "SymbiLink" etc. Plus they're appear very locked down pretty tight through their dealers for MSRP pricing.


----------



## VP Electricity

Babs said:


> Oh yeah.. The Zapco products.. The DC Ref amps by themselves also would be good integration product review fodder. I don't know why but their stuff just scares me.. I think it's just all the proprietary names "SymbiLink" etc.


You are easily scared. I have done OE integration in many cars, using Zapco BTLs, hacked Symbi cables, and hacked Symbi transmitters. Most important thing in OE integration is NOT the gear, it's properly diagnosing the car. 




Babs said:


> Plus they're appear very locked down pretty tight through their dealers for MSRP pricing.


That's a negative? What did you want it for, free?


----------



## t3sn4f2

VP Electricity said:


> You are easily scared. I have done OE integration in many cars, using Zapco BTLs, hacked Symbi cables, and hacked Symbi transmitters. Most important thing in OE integration is NOT the gear, it's properly diagnosing the car.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *That's a negative?* What did you want it for, free?


I think so.......it would be foolish to pay MSRP. Even before the internet came along, places that listed MSRP on their price tag (Sound Advice) would give you a price cut.


----------



## VP Electricity

Babs said:


> Brings up a good point... The 3sixty.2 (.1 rarely mentioned - minimal EQ only piece), is a completely manual processor except for the de-EQ and summing business, but full featured, though channel-quantity challenged.


This is incorrect. The 360.1 has fewer manual bands of EQ, but has the same auto-adjust de-eq function as the 360.1. There is nothing manual-only about it. 



Babs said:


> What I'd love to hear is a head to head review / comparison between all the integration processors for catagories of channel qty / system potential, versitility (how well it plays with various car signals), SQ, tune features, tune performance, goods, bads, etc.


I agree, this would be great. The OE integration capability if far different from the tuning capability, and you would need to either install these into nine different cars, or come up with a good test bench protocol (as their are nine permutations of OE system that you need to address with an OE interface).

Keep an eye out for such a test coming soon...


----------



## VP Electricity

t3sn4f2 said:


> I think so.......it would be foolish to pay MSRP. Even before the internet came along, places that listed MSRP on their price tag (Sound Advice) would give you a price cut.


Actually, most dealers sell Zapco for somewhere between MSRP and MAP. Again, Zapco doesn't control what dealers sell for. 

Why would you think that a Zapco dealer has anything in common with Sound Advice when it comes to revenue, inventory turns, etc? Specious argument (and off topic, so let;s take it elsewhere).


----------



## Babs

VP Electricity said:


> You are easily scared. I have done OE integration in many cars, using Zapco BTLs, hacked Symbi cables, and hacked Symbi transmitters. Most important thing in OE integration is NOT the gear, it's properly diagnosing the car.


Not to get into a debate about it, but if it's of value to me, one should not have to "hack" such expensive gear. A car system isn't a patient, it puts out some form of signal to oem amps or speakers. If my local had a clean room, white jackets and a college education, I'd see value in their diagnosis. Unfortunately my local shop falls short.. wwaaaaay short. So I'd rather not be dependent on such.



VP Electricity said:


> That's a negative? What did you want it for, free?


It's not really a negative for folks that don't mind or can't help but be dependent on full-boat retail brick-n-mortar shops. If I had to rely on the shops, I'd care nothing about such things as car audio.

On the free part, I don't need a middle-man at a cash register, nor need to pay a middle-man's cut. Now I do appreciate paying for value, for premium service and I appreciate supporting locals.. I just haven't found a local shop that provides any of that value so I'm done with brick and mortars when it pertained to car audio. Sorry. The best buy install bay svc here is better than the local independent.

Having said that.. You may run a great shop with solid integrity, etc. So I am not directing the above at you.. Locally I've been consistently unimpressed with an understanding it's a very small market here. We're talking maybe a couple shops, max. I think ARCuhTEK found a good one hopefully local to me as well with his Bit One deal, that I'd get a referal for, IF I was ever in need. But I intend never to be in need of one. I'll take the part, put it in, and I'll go with the one I don't have to hack.

It's audio gear, not rocket science requiring a pro. Otherwise, I simply don't need it.. Other priorities prevail over that much suffering.


----------



## Babs

VP Electricity said:


> This is incorrect. The 360.1 has fewer manual bands of EQ, but has the same auto-adjust de-eq function as the 360.1. There is nothing manual-only about it.


I meant time-alignment and active crossover capabilities of the 3Sixty.2. With any of these OEM pieces, the summing and de-EQ I considered the bare minimum OEM integration processor functions and I'd expect them to be a fairly automated process. So yeah we could catagorize oem processing into two. de-EQ/Summing vs conventional other processing.


----------



## ErinH

Babs, regarding the symbilink/oem integration, its quite simple: zapco btl. These are essentially locs for symbi gear. Tap them into the oem wires and you're set. . Very easy.


----------



## ARCuhTEK

Babs said:


> I think ARCuhTEK found a good one hopefully local to me as well with his Bit One deal, that I'd get a referal for, IF I was ever in need. But I intend never to be in need of one. I'll take the part, put it in, and I'll go with the one I don't have to hack.


I can confirm I did not find a local shop to assist me. So I chose to DIY, even if it did take me 6 months. 

Back to symbilink, I 100% understand your hesitation. I considered ZAPCO before the Bit One was on my radar and I can tell you there is (to me) a whole different level of hassle around the symbilink products that I personally did not want to deal with at the time. The Bit One went south( for a while) and I purcahsed two DSP 6 systems with full on HU to amp symbilink cables and transmitters..etc. So I DID bite the bullet and finally jump in head first. I have sold all of the ZAPCO stuff since that time and reunited with my Bit One.

All I am trying to say is that there is something to be said about the peace of mind with the Bit One and not having to dedicate some brain energy to learning a whole proprietary system of cables and connectivity. SURE...I understand the advantage of the balanced line and why it was important to ZAPCO. But I no longer have balanced line with my Bit One and it sounds pretty good to me. So, there is a different way to the same end.

Just like anything else in life....if you want to dedicate time, you too can learn just about anything. ZAPCO just took more time. I also feel that the used ZAPCO DSP 6 "plus" the cables, put the cost over and above the Bit One.1 "new" cost. So that will swing the pendulum too.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.


----------



## kkant

To me (and to any other SQ-oriented DIY'er, I would think), the most important part of the MS8 is the high quality auto-tune. None of these others have that.


----------



## michaelsil1

kkant said:


> To me (and to any other SQ-oriented DIY'er, I would think), the most important part of the MS8 is the *high quality auto-tune*. None of these others have that.


Are they using the Audyssey?

That's what Alpine uses and Audison was going to use.


----------



## shadowfactory

michaelsil1 said:


> Are they using the Audyssey?
> 
> That's what Alpine uses and Audison was going to use.


I, like many people here, was not satisfied with the results of using Audyssey, and am looking forward to a proper car implementation of that idea, rather than one designed for home use then improperly approximated to a car environment.


----------



## michaelsil1

shadowfactory said:


> I, like many people here, was not satisfied with the results of using Audyssey, and am looking forward to a proper car implementation of that idea, rather than one designed for home use then improperly approximated to a car environment.


I'm with you, I would love to see a unit that brings tears of joy.


----------



## 86mr2

shadowfactory said:


> am looking forward to a proper car implementation of that idea, rather than one designed for home use then improperly approximated to a car environment.


x3, although I am pretty happy with Imprint most of the time.


----------



## instalher

the correction process of the alpine imprint, is meant to be used for the everyday person who wants there system to really sound good... maybe not iasca quality but better than they can ever tune. and not cost tons of money..... 400 bucks and your done.. thats its nothing more.. please dont confuse imprint with the ms-8 or the bit one.


----------



## shadowfactory

instalher said:


> the everyday person who wants there system to really sound good... maybe not iasca quality but better than they can ever tune.


Maybe I did it wrong, I only tried running imprint over 30 times while changing settings and gains to fool it, but in the end all it did was make things worse. I could never get it dialed in, there was always some glaring flaw. 



instalher said:


> please dont confuse imprint with the ms-8 or the bit one.


Uh, the MS-8 and imprint both use a microphone to do auto-ta, auto-eq, and environmental correction, how are they different again?


----------



## ibanzil

the ms-8 will use a completely different approach than audyssey. audyssey does not let you choose a curve besides the ones they provide and does not measure with you in the car...ms-8 has a mic that goes on each ear and measures them seperately. (or so it has been said)


----------



## shadowfactory

ibanzil said:


> the ms-8 will use a completely different approach than audyssey. audyssey does not let you choose a curve besides the ones they provide and does not measure with you in the car...ms-8 has a mic that goes on each ear and measures them seperately. (or so it has been said)


And these are all the reasons why the ms-8 will pretty much rape audyssey when it comes out. :thumbsup:


----------



## kkant

michaelsil1 said:


> Are they using the Audyssey?
> 
> That's what Alpine uses and Audison was going to use.


Audyssey complete sucks in-car. Really completely sucks.

The whole thing with the MS8 is that they have demonstrated kick ass performance in competition. If they hadn't done that, I would not really be all that interested in it. Auto-tune has been tried before, like the Audyssey, and there would be no particular reason to think that JBL's version was better than any other.

So I have no problem with demonstrating prototypes at a trade show, even way before release, and even if the release is delayed. What are we losing by that? I prefer to have more information than less.


----------



## kkant

shadowfactory said:


> Maybe I did it wrong, I only tried running imprint over 30 times while changing settings and gains to fool it, but in the end all it did was make things worse. I could never get it dialed in, there was always some glaring flaw.


I agree completely. Even no EQ at all sounds better than imprint--in my case, anyway.


----------



## fordfanatik70

kkant said:


> I doubt it. The fact that JBL won first at SBN with a prototype means that they already have a viable approach. The fundamentals of the auto-correction are sound, as it were. More likely they are in the testing/QA stage, and that can take a while for any product--regardless of type.
> 
> Any more updates Andy? I think you mentioned a while back that you were doing some use case verification, right?


Dude, you sound like an IT guy! God bless ya........

Seriously, the whole QA process is often the toughest part of any product launch. The last thing you want is bad press about how well a product works in the lab, but once it is released, it doesn't deliver as promised. 

Andy, I work as an IT consultant/recruiter, and I laugh at all the Microsoft/Bill Gates references about how MS introduces products far before their time. How one doesn't have a decent OS until there have been at least two service packs released is beyond me. Bill Gates is a marketing genius but his products are ****. Strange that probably 90% of us are running some version of Windows........;-)

Trust me Andy, you don't want to be known as the Microsoft of car audio, or home audio for that matter. 

Good luck. Take the time that you need. My only advice - it had better deliver. Make sure it as close to flawless as possible and make sure it performs as advertised whe you do finally release it.

thx


----------



## vinny

Sassmastersq said:


> this thread has been 2 years of "not yet, but soon we hope" It's really sad to see people getting a hard on for a product that they've never seen, nobody has really ever seen, but is going to be "perfect" for them.


Sassy (if I can call you that), I have tried the Alpine and the RF product. Neither satisfied. The Bit One is what I trying to get my hands on now. *Hopefully* JBL's MS-8 will address the issues found in the Alpine/RF products.

Andy, JBL needs to remember that the target audience for this product (if it going to sell for $1K or so) will want to tweak the default settings to taste. I dont know if the target audience will care as much for Logic 7 processing for example. Given that JBL usually leverages technology across many products (and often acorss it's sister brands) I would not be surprised if a stripped down version (maybe called the MS5) for say $300 will follow the MS-8.


----------



## vinny

instalher said:


> ... so my blood does bleed orange....





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The future of car audio aftermarket depends on products like MS-8.


As car dashboards get more integrated and OEM HUs become less and less disposable products like the MS-8, Bit One, Alpine 650, RF 360.2 etc.. will be one way for guys like us to integrate 3rd party amps, speakers, etc.. to a OEM HU.

Companies like Harman/JBL/Infinity will need depend on MS8s and their brethern to sell amps and speakers.

In one install on my wife's car the OEM HU was so strongly EQed that adding 3rd party (and presumably "better") amps, sub & speakers actually made the music sound worse. It was that install that forced me to investigate the Alpine 650 and RF 360.2. 

Just like her (my wife), many people would love to retain their stock HU if only to retain the functions these systems share with the car's electronics (Voice Control, Systems feedback, etc..).

Guys remember, Harman, JBL and Infinity all sell amplifiers. I wont be surprised to see 'MS8 technology' in some of these in the future.


----------



## AWC

hey Andy? What do you think will be acceptable as far as a dash placement while firinng against glass? I know you said a tweeter would be ok, what about a 6.5 inch? Obviously, normally it would be a no-no, but will the processing capabilities be able to overcome? Would this be too much to ask?


----------



## 14642

No problem. I have a 6" firing into my windshield...


----------



## Sassmastersq

So you've got 6" pointing straight up?


----------



## Wheres The Butta

Sassmastersq said:


> So you've got 6" pointing straight up?


lol.


----------



## donkeypunch22

Oh, Sassmaster is here...


----------



## 14642

Yes, in the top center of the dash. I have a 6" in each door (in the bottom), a 3" near the top of the door, and a tweeter in each sail panel.


----------



## killerb87

this will never end.


----------



## ryancrouch

Andy,
A while back on the carsound forum you mentioned having a Volvo (S60 I think). Is this the setup you have in it? And if so any more info or pics of it?


----------



## avddreamr

Without the intention to sound like an arse.... I am surprised that this unit has not as of yet made it to market. I'm certain that it will be extraordinary once it comes out. But wow... I have to wonder at what point do development costs stretched over several years begin to erode the business case for a product. Further, one would expect Harman to attempt to recoup the development costs at the expense of sales volume.The product would certainly have to be priced higher than initially intended. 


I hope that the product makes into the market in some form or another, and doesn't remain an item that consistently gets reinvented but never actually makes it to market.


----------



## bose301s

avddreamr said:


> Without the intention to sound like an arse.... I am surprised that this unit has not as of yet made it to market. I'm certain that it will be extraordinary once it comes out. But wow... I have to wonder at what point do development costs stretched over several years begin to erode the business case for a product. Further, one would expect Harman to attempt to recoup the development costs at the expense of sales volume.The product would certainly have to be priced higher than initially intended.
> 
> 
> I hope that the product makes into the market in some form or another, and doesn't remain an item that consistently gets reinvented but never actually makes it to market.


Yea, it seems to have Duke Nukem Forever syndrome going on.


----------



## VP Electricity

avddreamr said:


> Further, one would expect Harman to attempt to recoup the development costs at the expense of sales volume.The product would certainly have to be priced higher than initially intended.


You mean since the market size has collapsed since then? 

You mean since we had Circuit City go bankrupt... *and then as an industry seem to have misplaced their customers?*

The only thing that I can think of is that Andy has a patent application up his sleeve, and a slide with projected IP licensing revenue which keeps getting shown to the board...


----------



## ctrhenry

Will it play BattleToads 2 ?


----------



## ryancrouch

Andy has, I think, adequately defended the development process for the MS-8. From what I gather it is just one of many new products being developed by JBL and Harman Kardon. Based on my experience with JBL these will be nothing less than amazing.


----------



## tspence73

Sometimes my feet smell like bacon.


----------



## Chaos

I'll say this about the MS-8: IF it ever becomes available, I would definitely buy it. I am probably just the type of enthusiast/consumer that this product is aimed at. I know enough to be dangerous (i.e., obsessed with autosound and locked in a relentless cycle of trial & error in the pursuit of SQ), and I want to optimize the performance of my system, but I would never go to the extremes of building something as exotic as a custom carputer to do it. I don't compete, and I never will. That is strictly a spectator sport as far as I am concerned.

To me, this product potentially offers just the right mix of sophistication, versatility and usability which should yield excellent performance much more cost effectively than I could ever accomplish piecemeal on my own. I call that a good value. 

Will it get you 100% perfection? No, of course not, nothing will. I for one would much rather buy the MS-8 and spend a day installing & tuning it to get say, 95% optimized performance than spending countless hours and who knows how much more money in a vain attempt at conquering the remaining 5%.


----------



## CraigE

Last week I had the opportunity to meet Andy Wehmeyer at JBL in Northridge, CA.
I got a tour of their testing facility and a demo of the MS-8.
Although the demo was not in a car, it was very impressive.
I would say it gets you 80% tuned in a matter of a few minutes. I've spent many hours getting to that, with my own system.
Of course the people on this forum are going to want to take it further. Not to mention adjusting for personal preferences.
I'm sure Andy and his crew are very aware of that.
The MS-8 is definetly on the FRONT burner at JBL, and I think we will see it soon.


----------



## tspence73

CraigE said:


> Last week I had the opportunity to meet Andy Wehmeyer at JBL in Northridge, CA.
> I got a tour of their testing facility and a demo of the MS-8.
> Although the demo was not in a car, it was very impressive.
> I would say it gets you 80% tuned in a matter of a few minutes. I've spent many hours getting to that, with my own system.
> Of course the people on this forum are going to want to take it further. Not to mention adjusting for personal preferences.
> I'm sure Andy and his crew are very aware of that.
> The MS-8 is definetly on the FRONT burner at JBL, and I think we will see it soon.


----------



## 14642

Hey Craig,
It was nice to meet you too--and thanks for deflecting some of these stones.


----------



## Lanson

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hey Craig,
> It was nice to meet you too--and thanks for deflecting some of these stones.


The only stone I want to throw at you is a diamond...to pay for the thing when it comes out.


----------



## VP Electricity

The initial price projection was $800...didn't that change?


----------



## BigRed

Craig, you lucky dog!!


----------



## Buzzman

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hey Craig,
> It was nice to meet you too--and thanks for deflecting some of these stones.


Craig eats kevlar for breakfast, so you know the stones didn't hurt.  Seriously, he had only great things to say about you Andy, and we look forward to your spending some time with us at our "gatherings." I am not going to be in the market for a MS-8, but I am sure the stories you might share about its development will be worth hearing.


----------



## tspence73

fourthmeal said:


> The only stone I want to throw at you is a diamond...to pay for the thing when it comes out.


Wait! It's going to be more than $800?  I have money set aside. How much will this thing cost?


----------



## 14642

$800. But I have a special deal for you Spence.


----------



## tspence73

epper: Yeah. What's the special deal?


----------



## mikey7182

tspence73 said:


> epper: Yeah. What's the special deal?


$850?  I actually hope he gives you a special deal. You've seemed to want this for a long time now.


----------



## ryancrouch

I for one can't wait to see what other products JBL has been developing as well. Something tells me the MS-8 is just the beginning.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

JBL is legit.

I'm a complete novice at tuning, and I don't even have a processor yet, so I'm just going to wait for this to be available. Hopefully it will give me a solid stepping stone and get me on my way to a fine-tuned system.


----------



## donkeypunch22

CraigE said:


> Last week I had the opportunity to meet Andy Wehmeyer at JBL in Northridge, CA.
> I got a tour of their testing facility and a demo of the MS-8.
> Although the demo was not in a car, it was very impressive.
> I would say it gets you 80% tuned in a matter of a few minutes. I've spent many hours getting to that, with my own system.
> Of course the people on this forum are going to want to take it further. Not to mention adjusting for personal preferences.
> I'm sure Andy and his crew are very aware of that.
> The MS-8 is definetly on the FRONT burner at JBL, and I think we will see it soon.


Oh, STOKED!!!


----------



## AdamTaylor

i just got a chubby 


i smell it coming very soon


----------



## DonovanM

avddreamr said:


> Without the intention to sound like an arse.... I am surprised that this unit has not as of yet made it to market. I'm certain that it will be extraordinary once it comes out. But wow... I have to wonder at what point do development costs stretched over several years begin to erode the business case for a product. Further, one would expect Harman to attempt to recoup the development costs at the expense of sales volume.The product would certainly have to be priced higher than initially intended.
> 
> 
> I hope that the product makes into the market in some form or another, and doesn't remain an item that consistently gets reinvented but never actually makes it to market.


We saw what happened to Audison when they steamrolled the BitOne through the debugging process. I'm glad JBL is taking the extra steps necessary to make a product that's actually finished, and am looking forward to picking one up.


----------



## ErinH

Good to hear things are rolling along nicely.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Is the remote still RF?


----------



## tspence73

I still think I should get a prototype for field testing. If it's tspence-proof then it's ready for market.


----------



## quakercountry

the agonizing wait...

i settled for a pxe-h650 in the mean time.


----------



## LondonRS4

tspence73 said:


> I still think I should get a prototype for field testing. If it's tspence-proof then it's ready for market.


 That's what the guys in my lab say to me. We have $25 million in MRI equipment . They say let the boss run it. It it doesn't break, then it must be sturdy and idiot proof. I'm game.

Seriously though, I've got (well my lab technically) a $14k Agilent audio spectrum analyzer. I'd be a good candidate for a beta test unit now wouldn't I ? Plus an HX-650 to compare against.


----------



## tspence73

LondonRS4 said:


> That's what the guys in my lab say to me. We have $25 million in MRI equipment . They say let the boss run it. It it doesn't break, then it must be sturdy and idiot proof. I'm game.
> 
> Seriously though, I've got (well my lab technically) a $14k Agilent audio spectrum analyzer. I'd be a good candidate for a beta test unit now wouldn't I ? Plus an HX-650 to compare against.


Hey, no fair. Let the average joe have some kind of fighting chance to obtain a test gadget.


----------



## Boostedrex

AdamTaylor said:


> i just got a chubby
> 
> 
> i smell it coming very soon


You could go so many places with that post. But I think I'll just leave it alone for now. Ewwww. LOL!



tspence73 said:


> Hey, no fair. Let the average joe have some kind of fighting chance to obtain a test gadget.


Oddly enough, I'm in agreement with Spence. Seeing as how JBL has all of the high end test gear and I have no doubt that they put it to use during the testing phase, it would be nice to see what an "average joe" could achieve with the MS-8. Especially one that is a bit on the inexperienced side tuning wise. Just my .02, not that's it's even worth that. 

Glad to hear that things are moving along though Andy. I've always wondered if the MS-8 would hit the market before the DSP8. First one to market that is actually "bug free" will be in my car for sure.

Zach


----------



## m3gunner

Hey, Andy... how about a group buy? I'm sure we could come up with 10 or 12 in one shot just based on the comments here.


----------



## donkeypunch22

I'm in if there is a group buy.


----------



## tspence73

Me too. Unless the "special deal" means some kind of cool low price or free gear.


----------



## AdamTaylor

im down for a group buy


----------



## Sassmastersq

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> $800. But I have a special deal for you Spence.


bring your knee pads, some lube, handcuffs and some nice strong rope, then find 2 midgets and a donkey and bring them to andy's house... oh, and don't forget your $800


----------



## donkeypunch22

Sassmastersq said:


> bring your knee pads, some lube, handcuffs and some nice strong rope, then find 2 midgets and a donkey and bring them to andy's house... oh, and don't forget your $800


Sassmastersq speaks from experience!


----------



## nick561

cant wait to get one of these things


----------



## 14642

So...I'm back in LA for a week of meetings and spent some time in the MS-8 lab today. Next week, we should have the first fully-integrated software build and we'll start the rest of the debugging. The various modules have been debugged separately. 

It sounds great and it works great too. 

Here are a few cool features that might go unnoticed:

1. The subwoofer level control is a shelf filter that's applied to all the channels through the crossover instead of the usual gain control that most everyone else uses as a sub level control. The benefit is that once you get the bass sounding like it comes from the front (oh yeah, that's automatic) you can adjust the subwoofer level all you want and it never sounds boomy and never gives away its location. We were listening in the lab and we moved the subwoofer all over the place, ran the auto EQ each time and no matter the location, it always disappeared into the sound of the rest of the speakers. No amount of sub level adjustment with the shelf filter made the location any more obvious. 

2. The 31-band EQ precisely tracks the curve you draw with the "sliders". With most graphic EQs, adjusting two adjacent bands in the same direction (say +6dB) will give you quite a bit more boost at a frequency in between the two sliders. If the filter Qs are narrow, you'll get two peaks at the proper amplitude, but with a hole in the middle. The EQ in MS-8 adjusts all the adjacent bands automatically to precisely match the curve you draw. This is a big deal and no other car audio EQ that I know of includes this "math". If you want to see what happens with a regular EQ, hook one up to your analyzer. If you use a PC and sound card, just connect it in a loop, play some pink noise and adjust a bunch of the sliders--you'll be shocked. If you find one that does what MS-8s EQ does, I'll be shocked. 

3. The UN-EQ not only flattens the response, but it also removes any channel delay present in the OE system. 

I've explained these features in previous posts, but they've basically been little additions to my wish list and today I saw them all working--and working perfectly. Ahhh...like Christmas for a little kid.


----------



## michaelsil1

I would like to be a test candidate; my Bit One is giving me all sorts of problems.


----------



## beerdrnkr

Well, time to start saving up.


----------



## m3gunner

Great to hear those features... another suggestion, since you're doing software...

Make the tuning software work on an iPhone... and do two more builds to get it on a Mac and on a Windows machine.

You read it here first. No commission required...


----------



## donkeypunch22

Brah, this is going to be the sh!t...


----------



## jbowers

I like everything I'm hearing about this thing but the wait to get it!


----------



## CraigE

Andy... CONGRATULATIONS !! Man.
"A kid at Christmas" ???
More like a father in the delivery room.
You should be passing out cigars. Haha. 
Thanks for the update.


----------



## 14642

m3gunner said:


> Great to hear those features... another suggestion, since you're doing software...
> 
> Make the tuning software work on an iPhone... and do two more builds to get it on a Mac and on a Windows machine.
> 
> You read it here first. No commission required...


I can see having the ability to use the iPhone as a remote, but I don't see the need for the PC. The menu is simple to use and would just be replicated on the PC, possibly with a colorful GUI. Why is a PC tool an attractive option?


----------



## AdamTaylor

familiarity.... maybe

i guess the bigger screen and other programs that can run at the same time


----------



## tspence73

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So...I'm back in LA for a week of meetings and spent some time in the MS-8 lab today. Next week, we should have the first fully-integrated software build and we'll start the rest of the debugging. The various modules have been debugged separately.
> 
> It sounds great and it works great too.
> 
> Here are a few cool features that might go unnoticed:
> 
> 1. The subwoofer level control is a shelf filter that's applied to all the channels through the crossover instead of the usual gain control that most everyone else uses as a sub level control. The benefit is that once you get the bass sounding like it comes from the front (oh yeah, that's automatic) you can adjust the subwoofer level all you want and it never sounds boomy and never gives away its location. We were listening in the lab and we moved the subwoofer all over the place, ran the auto EQ each time and no matter the location, it always disappeared into the sound of the rest of the speakers. No amount of sub level adjustment with the shelf filter made the location any more obvious.


This is great. I've gone to great lengths to do this in my car which include larger drivers up front with a bit of on-the-fly increase/decrease at lower frequencies to blend with the sub as I adjust the volume and bass. Wow, then the ms-8 will very likely cut/remove my adjustments on certain tracks and certain volumes in the car. Sweet! 

And in order for me to get the sub to truly "disappear" I had to apply two lowpass filters, one is 50Hz @ 24db/octive and the other is 90Hz @ 12db/octave to make the slope even more steep going into the upper bass area. The fact that you have a super-steep shelf filter that acts logically in conjunction with the satellite channels goes even further makes this product seem like it's perfect for me and my finicky listening habits. 



> 2. The 31-band EQ precisely tracks the curve you draw with the "sliders". With most graphic EQs, adjusting two adjacent bands in the same direction (say +6dB) will give you quite a bit more boost at a frequency in between the two sliders. If the filter Qs are narrow, you'll get two peaks at the proper amplitude, but with a hole in the middle. The EQ in MS-8 adjusts all the adjacent bands automatically to precisely match the curve you draw. This is a big deal and no other car audio EQ that I know of includes this "math". If you want to see what happens with a regular EQ, hook one up to your analyzer. If you use a PC and sound card, just connect it in a loop, play some pink noise and adjust a bunch of the sliders--you'll be shocked. If you find one that does what MS-8s EQ does, I'll be shocked.


Wow. Just wow. I want one. NOW! :bigcry: I've been trying to make chicken salad out of chicken chit (making due with goofy workarounds to get the sound I want) in my car now for far too long.



> Ahhh...like Christmas for a little kid.


No doubt this is a gigantic step forward in DSP car audio processing and I don't think other companies are going to match it for quite some time. The developmental time and quality testing that went into the software sounds like it must have sometimes been a pain in the butt. This is going to be the center-piece in my car system and fits my listening personality big-time as I like to tinker, test, fiddle and adjust. The EQ curve presets are going to be very important to me.


----------



## 14642

If you want to use a laptop-based analyzer to check MS-8's work and to help tune the graphic EQ according to your taste, believe me, it's much simpler to have the laptop running only the analyzer. That way, you don't have to switch back and forth between windows. 

The biggest difference and the one that will make MS-8 a better tool for making cars sound great is that all of that work that you're used to doing with crossovers, a bunch of EQ channels and delay settings are done automatically. The setup process is a serial process because everything is optimized once you finish the measurements. Setting crossovers is a matter of driver safety and potential output level, but you just make suggestions with the settings you input. The crossover points you choose are the ones that get implemented, but the response shapes are dictated by the combination of the EQ, which is applied before those filters, and based on an average of 6 measurements and the filter settings you choose. 

All of the trial and error that IS current car tuning with conventional tools is eliminated and replaced by a process that knows the measurements and, through an algorithm (a list of instructions that aid the machine in making decisions), determines which solution set is most appropriate for fixing the acoustic problems. It WILL do a better job than any manual process at arriving the best possible optimization of the system, according to accepted science, the preset target frequency response and the requirement that the car has an image where the center is in the center of the dash, the stage is in front of the listener and the bass sounds like it comes from the front. Of course, that science doesn't take your preference into account and that's why we provide the tools that you'll need and want to make changes according to your preference. 

It cannot fix a really ****ty system, but it can do a better job of making even a ****ty system sound better than another process. The use cases that it will support are based on reasonable and realistic system design. The minimum supported system is a simple stereo system--2-channels. A stereo system can be up to quad-amped, but the subwoofer output is a mono signal (2 output channels are available). I fyou insist on stereo bass, then you can tri-amp the stereo system. If you use rear speakers, subtract 2 channels from the channels available to do the rest. If you use a center channel, subtract one more. With MS-8, there's little benefit in separate channels for tweeters. The ease of crossover adjustability in tuning is moot--since you're not tuning and time alignment is unnecessary up there. MS-8 sets the levels and the response shapes via the EQ. We provide the ability to use separate channels for those who want that, but the addition of a center channel or rear or side speakers is a FAR better upgrade.

When we started designing this thing, I told the engineers that the auto-tune was fine, but that i wanted a back door to the target response and all of the filters because I believed my process, performed manually, would provide better results. Now, I know that was BS. It DOES provide my results because it's my process built in a little box that thinks much faster than I can and can sort through all the possible optimizations in a few seconds. It isn't a compromise.


----------



## 14642

TSpence,
The additional low pass filter at 90Hz that you use is a workaround for the fact that increasing the sub level increases the acoustic crossover frequency between the subs and the midbass. You've discovered this through hours of listening and tinkering. It's a one-time fix that you've implemented as a compromise. The shelf filter is also proprietary, and only available in MS-8 (although someone else could write the math to make it happen in another processor), and it boosts below 60Hz but NEVER above 160. The slope of the shelf is adjusted as the level is adjusted. It's similar in performance to your additional filter, if the filter were adjusted automatically when you adjusted the level to maintain your crossover frequency and overall response shape.


----------



## kkant

Hey Andy...

Did the 2006 MS8 BMW come with the factory Logic 7 option? I want to know if (1) the MS8 can de-EQ the logic 7, and (2) whether it would help to get the logic 7 from the factory so that I have a convenient place to put my aftermarket center channel speaker.


----------



## ISTundra

So what's the ETA on this unit?


----------



## Wheres The Butta

ISTundra said:


> So what's the ETA on this unit?


nothing official yet to the best of my knowledge. I've been following this thread periodically for some time and haven't seen any announcements of an ETA


----------



## ErinH

Very excited to see this come to fruition. Thanks for the update, Andy.


----------



## BigRed

andy, sent you a pm


----------



## 60ndown

doesnt auto tune make sense? 

id prefer not to have to spend hours tweaking and still have less then optimal results.

if i could place a microphone (or 2) precisely, and the processor can set everything up idealy (tonality, image and T.A) why would i want to tweak anything? 

just put connections for 2 great microphones (that i can rent for 1 hour) on the ms-8 and make the software do it.

obviously the inclusion of 2 great microphones ($1000 each) would make the ms-8 too expensive for most of us, but if we can plug great mircophones into it (borrow a friends or rent), and the software can give us great results from there id prefer it to having to tweak and tweak.

(leave a little room for subwoofer gain/reduction) 

<-0.02c.


----------



## michaelsil1

60ndown said:


> doesnt auto tune make sense?
> 
> id prefer not to have to spend hours tweaking and still have less then optimal results.
> 
> if i could place a microphone (or 2) precisely, and the processor can set everything up idealy (tonality, image and T.A) why would i want to tweak anything?
> 
> just put connections for 2 great microphones (that i can rent for 1 hour) on the ms-8 and make the software do it.
> 
> obviously the inclusion of 2 great microphones ($1000 each) would make the ms-8 too expensive for most of us, but if we can plug great mircophones into it (borrow a friends or rent), and the software can give us great results from there id prefer it to having to tweak and tweak.
> 
> (leave a little room for subwoofer gain/reduction)
> 
> <-0.02c.


That would be nice.


----------



## FbodyAudio

60ndown said:


> doesnt auto tune make sense?
> 
> id prefer not to have to spend hours tweaking and still have less then optimal results.
> 
> if i could place a microphone (or 2) precisely, and the processor can set everything up idealy (tonality, image and T.A) why would i want to tweak anything?
> 
> just put connections for 2 great microphones (that i can rent for 1 hour) on the ms-8 and make the software do it.
> 
> obviously the inclusion of 2 great microphones ($1000 each) would make the ms-8 too expensive for most of us, but if we can plug great mircophones into it (borrow a friends or rent), and the software can give us great results from there id prefer it to having to tweak and tweak.
> 
> (leave a little room for subwoofer gain/reduction)
> 
> <-0.02c.


the whole concept of the MS8 is auto tune, and it comes with dual microphones to do just that. When you adjust the 31 band eq, you are setting a target curve, not telling the ms8 how to make it's adjustments. For example, if your car or speaker setup has a natural 3 db peak at 11khz, you do not need to adjust the 31 band eq to reduce that peak. If you set the ms-8 to have a flat curve, it will automatically apply whatever filter it needs to reduce that peak and match your target curve. If you prefer your highs a little brighter overall, you simply adjust the target curve accordingly, and the ms8 will apply whatever filters it needs to make your system match that curve.

hopefully, I've explained that right, but that's my understanding of the unit from what Andy has said in the past.

mike


----------



## kkant

60ndown said:


> if i could place a microphone (or 2) precisely, and the processor can set everything up idealy (tonality, image and T.A) why would i want to tweak anything?


Because your list doesn't include "dynamic range". So when you turn it up, the you might blow out your speakers, or at least distort. This is something the processor can't test for very easily. That's why it is important to allow the user to tweak the xover freqs. It's pretty easy for a user to get the ballpark xover freqs for the volume you want to listen at.

Also the bass shelf tweak. Not all recordings are equal. Some have too much bass, others too little. Allowing the (target) bass shelf to be raised and lowered is nice.

And finally, target response curve is often a matter of personal taste. So it's nice to be able to tweak that too, if needed.

Fortunately, it looks like the MS8 does all of this.


----------



## 14642

The target response is fixed. The autotune EQs to match the target. If you don't like the target, you adjust the sound using the 31-band EQ. It's not exactly done the way Mike explained it, but the end result is the same. 

There's no need to plug in some high-end microphone. The reason that high end microphones still exist for measurement (and I'd be willing to bet they won't exist for much longer) is that before computerized test equipment, the accuracy was only as good as the flatness and bandwidth of the microphone. Now that analysis is done as software, the hardware isn't so much of an issue, provided the flaws are linear. The microphones that come with MS-8 are good panasonic-type electrets, which are the ones that are used in many other measurement microphones. MS-8 includes a mic correction filter, that makes them measure flat, despite their being mounted in a pair of headphones cases. Plugging in some high end mic is unnecessary and would result in poorer performance. The only advantage might be the ability to make the measurements at ridiculously high levels, but that's just not necessary.

Yes, you can tweak the crossovers if you want, but you MUST run the EQ again after making those adjustments. Fortunately, that only takes a few minutes. You'll find that there's less need to set preposterously low crossovers for midbass, midrange and tweeters with MS-8. 

I'll provide an ETA when the rest of the debugging is underway and when I have a date that we're sure not to miss.


----------



## AWC

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So...I'm back in LA for a week of meetings and spent some time in the MS-8 lab today. Next week, we should have the first fully-integrated software build and we'll start the rest of the debugging. The various modules have been debugged separately.
> 
> It sounds great and it works great too.
> 
> Here are a few cool features that might go unnoticed:
> 
> 1. The subwoofer level control is a shelf filter that's applied to all the channels through the crossover instead of the usual gain control that most everyone else uses as a sub level control. The benefit is that once you get the bass sounding like it comes from the front (oh yeah, that's automatic) you can adjust the subwoofer level all you want and it never sounds boomy and never gives away its location. We were listening in the lab and we moved the subwoofer all over the place, ran the auto EQ each time and no matter the location, it always disappeared into the sound of the rest of the speakers. No amount of sub level adjustment with the shelf filter made the location any more obvious.
> 
> 2. The 31-band EQ precisely tracks the curve you draw with the "sliders". With most graphic EQs, adjusting two adjacent bands in the same direction (say +6dB) will give you quite a bit more boost at a frequency in between the two sliders. If the filter Qs are narrow, you'll get two peaks at the proper amplitude, but with a hole in the middle. The EQ in MS-8 adjusts all the adjacent bands automatically to precisely match the curve you draw. This is a big deal and no other car audio EQ that I know of includes this "math". If you want to see what happens with a regular EQ, hook one up to your analyzer. If you use a PC and sound card, just connect it in a loop, play some pink noise and adjust a bunch of the sliders--you'll be shocked. If you find one that does what MS-8s EQ does, I'll be shocked.
> 
> 3. The UN-EQ not only flattens the response, but it also removes any channel delay present in the OE system.
> 
> I've explained these features in previous posts, but they've basically been little additions to my wish list and today I saw them all working--and working perfectly. Ahhh...like Christmas for a little kid.




Andy, thanks alot for alot of the stuff you've taught us, really


----------



## 60ndown

FbodyAudio said:


> the whole concept of the MS8 is auto tune, and it comes with dual microphones to do just that. When you adjust the 31 band eq, you are setting a target curve, not telling the ms8 how to make it's adjustments. For example, if your car or speaker setup has a natural 3 db peak at 11khz, you do not need to adjust the 31 band eq to reduce that peak. If you set the ms-8 to have a flat curve, it will automatically apply whatever filter it needs to reduce that peak and match your target curve. If you prefer your highs a little brighter overall, you simply adjust the target curve accordingly, and the ms8 will apply whatever filters it needs to make your system match that curve.
> 
> hopefully, I've explained that right, but that's my understanding of the unit from what Andy has said in the past.
> 
> mike





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The target response is fixed. The autotune EQs to match the target. If you don't like the target, you adjust the sound using the 31-band EQ. It's not exactly done the way Mike explained it, but the end result is the same.
> 
> There's no need to plug in some high-end microphone. The reason that high end microphones still exist for measurement (and I'd be willing to bet they won't exist for much longer) is that before computerized test equipment, the accuracy was only as good as the flatness and bandwidth of the microphone. Now that analysis is done as software, the hardware isn't so much of an issue, provided the flaws are linear. The microphones that come with MS-8 are good panasonic-type electrets, which are the ones that are used in many other measurement microphones. MS-8 includes a mic correction filter, that makes them measure flat, despite their being mounted in a pair of headphones cases. Plugging in some high end mic is unnecessary and would result in poorer performance. The only advantage might be the ability to make the measurements at ridiculously high levels, but that's just not necessary.
> 
> Yes, you can tweak the crossovers if you want, but you MUST run the EQ again after making those adjustments. Fortunately, that only takes a few minutes. You'll find that there's less need to set preposterously low crossovers for midbass, midrange and tweeters with MS-8.
> 
> I'll provide an ETA when the rest of the debugging is underway and when I have a date that we're sure not to miss.


gotta admit it sounds like something i want..... could use... could enjoy.

oh ahhhhhhhhhh..... its a magic box........


----------



## 60ndown

i had a thought,

if this ms-8 basically processes the bejeesus out of a car system and gets all things 'right'

what would be the difference in sound using very high end drivers compared to much cheaper drivers?

if the ms-8 gets things 'right' both systems would sound the same?

right ????


----------



## michaelsil1

60ndown said:


> i had a thought,
> 
> if this ms-8 basically processes the bejeesus out of a car system and gets all things 'right'
> 
> what would be the difference in sound using very high end drivers compared to much cheaper drivers?
> 
> if the ms-8 gets things 'right' both systems would sound the same?
> 
> right ????


Luke,


Even if it did are you going to lay out the $850.00?


----------



## 60ndown

michaelsil1 said:


> Luke,
> 
> 
> Even if it did are you going to lay out the $850.00?


il wait for 2 months of reviews, if its 'all that'

yes 

if it can make my $100 tweeters sound like your $900 tweeters :laugh:


----------



## tspence73

60ndown said:


> i had a thought,
> 
> if this ms-8 basically processes the bejeesus out of a car system and gets all things 'right'
> 
> what would be the difference in sound using very high end drivers compared to much cheaper drivers?
> 
> if the ms-8 gets things 'right' both systems would sound the same?
> 
> right ????


This sound processor cannot change driver distortion response. It can correct time and frequency based distortions though from acoustic causes. So, I would think buying the speakers you like the most is still the best option. The sound I'm getting in my car now is pretty damn good considering and I have wondered if this DSP could actually end up making it worse instead of better. I'm willing to take the chance because the unit has a ton of manual adjustment options. If I don't like the auto-tune, then I end up with a very expensive high end digital equalizer. That's the worst thing I figure can happen. So, I'll go for it.


----------



## cubdenno

Looks like I am going to start hiding money away from my wife. And like 60 says, wait for some user reviews and then jump in. I really enjoy my 701 but... There is always room for some new love!


----------



## thehatedguy

Andy, please let me know when this comes out...been a big fan since Carsound.


----------



## 14642

As TSpence wrote, the EQ and the rest of the processing in MS-8 can't fix driver distortion and fixing non-linear distortion with DSP is still very uncommon in consumer devices (although many folks are working on it). Certainly, great Eq CAN make the difference between a good speaker and a great speaker much more difficult to hear, but there will always be room for great speakers--especially if they are to be driven with a lot of power. In my estimation, that's the first and best reason to replace speakers--so you can add more power. The opportuity for substantial improvement in most playback systems by replacing drivers with like drivers is coming to an end. So long as the system plays loudly enough, replacing drivers will soon be like using high-end wire...

BTW, I've done a Richard-Clark-Amp-Challenge thing with speakers in our sound room. The very small difference in the sound (similar sized woofers and tweeters, mounted on a flat baffle in the same way) once the speakers were EQed so they had the same response, wasn't easily perceived my most listeners--until we played them loudly.


----------



## AdamTaylor

andy, do you by any chance need a kidney cause im about ready to give one up to get my hands on this


----------



## 60ndown

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> As TSpence wrote, the EQ and the rest of the processing in MS-8 can't fix driver distortion and fixing non-linear distortion with DSP is still very uncommon in consumer devices (although many folks are working on it). Certainly, great Eq CAN make the difference between a good speaker and a great speaker much more difficult to hear, but there will always be room for great speakers--especially if they are to be driven with a lot of power. In my estimation, that's the first and best reason to replace speakers--so you can add more power. The opportuity for substantial improvement in most playback systems by replacing drivers with like drivers is coming to an end. So long as the system plays loudly enough, replacing drivers will soon be like using high-end wire...
> 
> BTW, I've done a Richard-Clark-Amp-Challenge thing with speakers in our sound room. The very small difference in the sound (similar sized woofers and tweeters, mounted on a flat baffle in the same way) once the speakers were EQed so they had the same response, wasn't easily perceived by most listeners--until we played them loudly.


@ 70mph (which is where i do most of my listening) im sure thats reason enough for me not to have to buy $5000 of esoteric drivers.......ever, 

as long as my $300 (used) drivers can handle 100wrms and my ride is reasonably quiet.


----------



## donkeypunch22

AdamTaylor said:


> andy, do you by any chance need a kidney cause im about ready to give one up to get my hands on this


Dude, I think an early release unit will cost more than a kidney. I mean Sassmastersq says he apparently did all kinds of crazy things with midgets and animals and paid $800, but still does not have a unit.

ps - Sassmastersq may never get one, cause he's cool like that


----------



## kkant

60ndown said:


> @ 70mph (which is where i do most of my listening) im sure thats reason enough for me not to have to buy $5000 of esoteric drivers.......ever,
> 
> as long as my $300 (used) drivers can handle 100wrms and my ride is reasonably quiet.


I think exactly the opposite. At 70MPH, road noise is the reason to get better (i.e. more linear higher displacement) drivers--so you can turn it up. Unless you car is quieter than a lexus LS, then maybe it doesn't matter. Even the LS noise floor is 60-65 db at cruise, which really chops down your dynamic range.

That doesn't mean $5000 drivers. Good list of drivers here, along with linearity measurements and comparisons:
Zaph|Audio

From the perspective of the MS8, you'd want to weight nonlinear distortion performance much higher than frequency response. Since the MS8 corrects for the latter.


----------



## SSSnake

Seriously, group buy!

I have the cash that I was going to spend on a "carputer" but with autotune the MS-8 wins.

Again, GROUP BUY


----------



## 60ndown

kkant said:


> I think exactly the opposite. At 70MPH, road noise is the reason to get better (i.e. more linear higher displacement) drivers--so you can turn it up. Unless you car is quieter than a lexus LS, then maybe it doesn't matter. Even the LS noise floor is 60-65 db at cruise, which really chops down your dynamic range.
> 
> That doesn't mean $5000 drivers. Good list of drivers here, along with linearity measurements and comparisons:
> Zaph|Audio
> 
> From the perspective of the MS8, you'd want to weight nonlinear distortion performance much higher than frequency response. Since the MS8 corrects for the latter.


my understanding is more expensive drivers reveal subtle differences, and subtlety can be enjoyed in a quiet room, but as you said, in a moving vehicle with 70db noise floor, that subtlety is impossible to hear.

lots of good drivers at zaph for $100.

some measure better then $200 drivers.



additional cost reveals additional subtlety, not necessarily additional volume.


----------



## t3sn4f2

kkant said:


> I think exactly the opposite. At 70MPH, road noise is the reason to get *better (i.e. more linear higher displacement) drivers*--so you can turn it up. Unless you car is quieter than a lexus LS, then maybe it doesn't matter. Even the LS noise floor is 60-65 db at cruise, which really chops down your dynamic range.
> 
> That doesn't mean $5000 drivers. Good list of drivers here, along with linearity measurements and comparisons:
> Zaph|Audio
> 
> From the perspective of the MS8, you'd want to weight nonlinear distortion performance much higher than frequency response. Since the MS8 corrects for the latter.


Could be, but then again the noise at that speed could still make the lower distortion from the more linear driver hard to appreciate since it would happen on quick dynamics only. Then on the average continuous level, the distortion difference between the decent and good driver might still be below the perceivable % and be even harder to hear because of the road noise.


----------



## tspence73

t3sn4f2 said:


> Could be, but then again the noise at that speed could still make the lower distortion from the more linear driver hard to appreciate since it would happen on quick dynamics only. Then on the average continuous level, the distortion difference between the decent and good driver might still be below the perceivable % and be even harder to hear because of the road noise.


This makes a good argument for why acoustic projects are going to help a great deal. I'm in the early stages of my acoustic projects. I'm going to do the triple layer approach of CLD/CCF/MLV (metal dampner/foam decoupling layer/heavy vinyl sound blocker) throughout the interior of the car. Then at some point buy security film for the windows to lower the noise a further 3-4db thru the windows. Then do engine compartment noise treatments. Then finally buy the quietest tires I can. With this overall combo I'm hoping to take the noise down as much as 15db - 20db at freeway speeds. That's the goal. A minimum realistic noise reduction is like 6db - 8db but that would mean I wasted money. I want the freeway noise db in the 70db range and normal driving noise in the 60db range. That's the target. I will be using my SPL meter along the way to track the noise reduction. However, I wish I could have an RTA to measure the noise based on frequency as well.

I figure if I could show the results of my project in some kind of scientific way, then that could benefit people to know how much money to invest in acoustic treatments and where the diminishing returns are at each phase. My hope is that I don't end up wasting any money and each phase really makes a measurable difference. I've studied up on acoustic treatments and have come up with as many ideas as I could to take mobile acoustic noise reduction as far as it can go. If anyone knows a super cheap or free RTA with mic I could use, let me know.

Also, Andy. I know that there is noise cancelling headphones technology. Is there anyway that technology can be applied through a device like the MS-8 to cancel out road noise in a car (provided that some minimal noise reduction material has been installed)? It just occurred to me that this might be a car application technology.  See, tspence may be silly and dumb sometimes but is full of imagination to associate different things. I'm thinking if a car's cabin can be isolated enough like headphones, this technology could probably work to quiet a car even more.


----------



## 60ndown

tspence73 said:


> This makes a good argument for why acoustic projects are going to help a great deal. I'm in the early stages of my acoustic projects. I'm going to do the triple layer approach of CLD/CCF/MLV (metal dampner/foam decoupling layer/heavy vinyl sound blocker) throughout the interior of the car. Then at some point buy security film for the windows to lower the noise a further 3-4db thru the windows. Then do engine compartment noise treatments. Then finally buy the quietest tires I can. With this overall combo I'm hoping to take the noise down as much as 15db - 20db at freeway speeds. That's the goal. A minimum realistic noise reduction is like 6db - 8db but that would mean I wasted money. I want the freeway noise db in the 70db range and normal driving noise in the 60db range. That's the target. I will be using my SPL meter along the way to track the noise reduction. However, I wish I could have an RTA to measure the noise based on frequency as well.
> 
> I figure if I could show the results of my project in some kind of scientific way, then that could benefit people to know how much money to invest in acoustic treatments and where the diminishing returns are at each phase. My hope is that I don't end up wasting any money and each phase really makes a measurable difference. I've studied up on acoustic treatments and have come up with as many ideas as I could to take mobile acoustic noise reduction as far as it can go. If anyone knows a super cheap or free RTA with mic I could use, let me know.
> 
> Also, Andy. I know that there is noise cancelling headphones technology. Is there anyway that technology can be applied through a device like the MS-8 to cancel out road noise in a car (provided that some minimal noise reduction material has been installed)? It just occurred to me that this might be a car application technology.  See, tspence may be silly and dumb sometimes but is full of imagination to associate different things. I'm thinking if a car's cabin can be isolated enough like headphones, this technology could probably work to quiet a car even more.


deadening a car is a lot of work, id seriously consider buying a different vehicle that was already quiet to drive (some cars come off the production line very quiet), over doing all the deadening work (materials + labour = $$) on a vehicle that is noisy.(2 similar cars used for $3500 could be significantly different (30 db?) as far as road noise.

my $2300 1992 toyota previa is one of the quietest vehicles ive ever been in, and at 70 mph, because of the front shape of the vehicle, there is zero wind noise.motor is underneath the vehicle and there is thick carpet etc throughout the cabin.very very quiet


cheap spl meter.

Digital-Display Sound-Level Meter - RadioShack.com

measure @ 70 mph before and after.

x2 on noise canceling q.


----------



## tspence73

Aha!

Bummer. Tspence thought he came up with something himself again, but alas, it has already been thought of: Toyota's noise cancelling car technology.


----------



## kkant

60ndown said:


> my understanding is more expensive drivers reveal subtle differences, and subtlety can be enjoyed in a quiet room, but as you said, in a moving vehicle with 70db noise floor, that subtlety is impossible to hear.
> 
> lots of good drivers at zaph for $100.
> 
> some measure better then $200 drivers.
> 
> 
> 
> additional cost reveals additional subtlety, not necessarily additional volume.


Not really. Subtlety is one of those artsy words that applies to music, but not to audio. What do you really mean by subtlety, and why would you expect that you can't hear it in a car? Are you talking about quiet passages or small signals in the background of a louder passage? If so, additional volume helps bring out the subtlety, as long as it's not distorted.

As far as what additional cost gives you, the answer is usually "snake oil". This is the audio industry, after all. Wooden volume knobs, green CD highlighters, etc. But if you shop right, additional cost gets you motors with more linearity and higher excursion. More volume with less distortion. Which is what you want in a car going 70. Additional cost can also get you smoother and more extended response, but these characteristics will presumably be less important if you get the MS8. Once it comes out.


----------



## kkant

t3sn4f2 said:


> Could be, but then again the noise at that speed could still make the lower distortion from the more linear driver hard to appreciate since it would happen on quick dynamics only. Then on the average continuous level, the distortion difference between the decent and good driver might still be below the perceivable % and be even harder to hear because of the road noise.


You could be right. But it depends on the music, I think. There is a lot of music where you are pushing linearity for more extended periods of time.


----------



## kkant

60ndown said:


> deadening a car is a lot of work, id seriously consider buying a different vehicle that was already quiet to drive (some cars come off the production line very quiet), over doing all the deadening work (materials + labour = $$) on a vehicle that is noisy.(2 similar cars used for $3500 could be significantly different (30 db?) as far as road noise.


I agree. IMO applying deadening band-aids will only take you so far (even after all that back-breaking work). You gotta stop the sound at the source, and that gets into chassis design and other stuff that you just can't change.


----------



## 60ndown

kkant said:


> Not really. Subtlety is one of those artsy words that applies to music, but not to audio. What do you really mean by subtlety, and why would you expect that you can't hear it in a car? Are you talking about quiet passages or small signals in the background of a louder passage? If so, additional volume helps bring out the subtlety, as long as it's not distorted.
> 
> but these characteristics will presumably be less important if you get the MS8. Once it comes out.


take a midrange home system, and 2 sets of speakers.one set $30,000, the other set $600.

spend a few hours in a room listening to them.

on typical music (pop, rock, r+b, funk, jazz etc) i doubt you'd hear much difference if volume was adjusted equally.subtleties yes, significant differences no.

maybe if you listen solely to the highest possible quality recordings available anywhere in the world you may enjoy the expensive speakers more....but maybe not 

now while listening to those absurdly expensive speakers put a running generator (70db ambient noise) in the room next to the room your listening to music in......

you coulda saved $29400.
...........


----------



## ItalynStylion

^Law of Diminishing Returns Defined.


----------



## kkant

tspence73 said:


> Then at some point buy security film for the windows to lower the noise a further 3-4db thru the windows.


Try using laminated double-layer side glass. All cars have laminated front glass, but the quietest ones use lamination on the side too (Lexus LS, some of the Buicks, Chevy Malibu, etc). You might be able to get custom laminated glass cut for your side windows from a auto glass shop.

But this stuff all adds up, in both effort and money. At some point it makes sense to just go ahead and get the used Lexus.


----------



## 60ndown

id bet $50, if 10 of us got together and spent a day testing (blind testing) in a moving vehicle, 20 sets of speakers ranging from $100- $5000, no-one would be able to identify speakers consistently.

richard clarke seems to have proven this with amps.

id bet, all things being equal (realistic listening volume, and typical music) speakers sound a lot alike.

ESPECIALLY IN A MOVNG VEHICLE.

if you have a need/desire to win iasca competitions, instead of just enjoying bumping down the road to the grocery store, 

go ahead and $$pay$$ for it


----------



## kkant

60ndown said:


> you coulda saved $29400.
> ...........


I agree, for the most part, as I mentioned before. Audio is full of snake oil. But if you know what to shop for, you can end up getting a significant return on extra money spent. For something that really will sound better. In a car, going 70. It doesn't have to be $5000, but it might be $500.


----------



## 60ndown

kkant said:


> I agree, for the most part, as I mentioned before. Audio is full of snake oil. But if you know what to shop for, you can end up getting a significant return on extra money spent. For something that really will sound better. In a car, going 70. It doesn't have to be $5000, but it might be $500.


agreed, then add the ms-8 (if it turns out to be as good as we all hope) to get all the different bits and bobs working together sweetly.


----------



## ItalynStylion

SSSnake said:


> Seriously, group buy!
> 
> I have the cash that I was going to spend on a "carputer" but with autotune the MS-8 wins.
> 
> Again, GROUP BUY


I'd be in for sure once I see the production unit and someone does a review on it's functionality and usage. I feel like many people would say the same thing.


----------



## kkant

60ndown said:


> id bet $50, if 10 of us got together and spent a day testing (blind testing) in a moving vehicle, 20 sets of speakers ranging from $100- $5000, no-one would be able to identify speakers consistently.


Blind tests are definitely the way to go. Problem is, it's pretty hard to set up a DBT for this, isn't it. It is certainly hard to tell the difference between real and imagined improvements in sound. But it is easy to tell the difference between when your ears are hurting and when they're not. I've been able tell that difference at least in different speakers I have listened to. And if you could set up a DBT in a moving car between 2 sets of speakers (my choice), I'd be willing to take you up on that $50 bet.



60ndown said:


> richard clarke seems to have proven this with amps.


Yes, he did. But speakers are different. I'd bet you $50 that RC wouldn't say all speakers sound the same. 



60ndown said:


> id bet, all things being equal (realistic listening volume, and typical music) speakers sound a lot alike.
> 
> ESPECIALLY IN A MOVNG VEHICLE.


The louder the volume, the more they sound UNalike. And a moving vehicle needs louder volume.


----------



## ItalynStylion

kkant said:


> The louder the volume, the more they sound UNalike. And a moving vehicle needs louder volume.


I'd think about it in terms of signal to noise ratio. The more noise there is the less detail you will be able to pick out. The only thing cranking the volume would change is how soon you near distortion. In that case a nicer driver with less distortion would indeed be better. So, I think you are both kinda right for different reasons.


----------



## 60ndown

kkant said:


> And ifI'd be willing to take you up on that $50 bet.
> 
> 
> I'd bet you $50 that RC wouldn't say all speakers sound the same.
> 
> 
> The louder the volume, the more they sound UNalike. And a moving vehicle needs louder volume.


1.in a moving vehicle at normal listening volumes, on normal music with the ms-8 as the processor, ill take your money. 

2.processed the same @ 70 mph with 70 db ambient noise between 70 and 5000hz id bet he wouldnt argue to hard.

3.in a noisy moving vehicle yes, but in a quiet moving vehicle (we have to start with a quiet ride) big volume is not as necessary.


----------



## 60ndown

and all of this is completely irrelevant if the speakers are not installed absolutely correctly.and how many people agree on how to do that ???


----------



## michaelsil1

SPL and SQ in a Car is *Hard* regardless of what kind of equipment you have.


----------



## kkant

ItalynStylion said:


> I'd think about it in terms of signal to noise ratio. The more noise there is the less detail you will be able to pick out.


Again, I have to ask what exactly you mean by "detail."


----------



## kkant

60ndown said:


> 1.in a moving vehicle at normal listening volumes, on normal music with the ms-8 as the processor, ill take your money.


Don't be too sure. My normal listening volume is pretty loud. I like to get all the subtle details, you know. 



60ndown said:


> 2.processed the same @ 70 mph with 70 db ambient noise between 70 and 5000hz id bet he wouldnt argue to hard.


Turn it up and I bet he would.



60ndown said:


> 3.in a noisy moving vehicle yes, but in a quiet moving vehicle (we have to start with a quiet ride) big volume is not as necessary.


None of this is necessary.  Big volume is nice to have, even in a quiet car.


----------



## tspence73

kkant said:


> Again, I have to ask what exactly you mean by "detail."


There is a known principle that science understands about human hearing. It's called Auditory Masking. When there is a sound present of a certain volume, it becomes very difficult or impossible to hear sounds from a like frequency range that are substantially more quiet. 

So, when the folks in here are talking about, "detail" they are talking about quiet, subtle sounds that are being drowned out by the road noise and engine noise during driving. The only know way to recover these lost details in the sound and make them audible is to lower those noises as far as possible. Even 1db of noise reduced will be perceived as a gain in detail and quality to a finicky listener. I plan to fight for every decibel I can get back!


----------



## 60ndown

kkant said:


> Headroom and awesome dynamics is nice to have in a quiet car.




fixored.


----------



## 60ndown

tspence73 said:


> The only know way to recover these lost details in the sound and make them audible is to lower those noises as far as possible.


option 2 is more volume, and many people do it that way until they end up at 22 years old with hearing loss.

option 1 is better for so many reasons.(you dont damage your hearing AND your equipment has to work less hard = less distortion= sounds better.)


----------



## 60ndown

back on topic.

when's this ms-8 available to buy?


----------



## t3sn4f2

tspence73 said:


> Aha!
> 
> Bummer. Tspence thought he came up with something himself again, but alas, it has already been thought of: Toyota's noise cancelling car technology.


The new Honda Accord V6 has this also, but it's more for counteracting the resonance that comes from the engine when it deactivates the cylinders for eco mode. Seems very complicated because they tell you that you have to replace the amp when ever you want to replace the oem driver with another oem driver. So even small driver to driver characteristics is enough to affect the noise cancellation tuning.


----------



## t3sn4f2

60ndown said:


> back on topic.
> 
> when's this ms-8 available to buy?


You just missed them, sold out till next year.


----------



## 60ndown

t3sn4f2 said:


> The new Honda Accord V6 has this also, but it's more for counteracting the resonance that comes from the engine when it deactivates the cylinders for eco mode. Seems very complicated because they tell you that you have to replace the amp when ever you want to replace the oem driver with another oem driver. So even small driver to driver characteristics is enough to affect the noise cancellation tuning.


if it works, and its loud enough (i bet the cars quiet), id never touch it.im sure Honda R+D spent some money and time and great minds developing it.

i dont believe many could improve on the end result easily or cheaply.

any by how much?

ive ridden in some foreign cars that were so quiet you can hear a pin drop.

if they have improved on that i bet noise floor is down very very low..


----------



## n_olympios

IIRC, Richard Clarke's test is based on the principle that the amps tested (in fact, the whole equipment list used) should remain within their limits of distortion, as in, they don't distort. Is this even possible in moderate to high volumes in the car?

Besides, I doubt that test could take place ceteris paribus.


----------



## tspence73

60ndown said:


> option 2 is more volume, and many people do it that way until they end up at 22 years old with hearing loss.
> 
> option 1 is better for so many reasons.(you dont damage your hearing AND your equipment has to work less hard = less distortion= sounds better.)


As far as I'm concerned, there is really only 1 realistic option. Lowering the level of the noise. When I crank up the midrange sounds above an average of 98db to 104db, then after that average range my ears become uncomfortable and I'm either hearing ringing distortions from my speakers or it could be that my ears are ringing and I simply cannot tolerate anything above that average volume without losing details and having discomfort, listening fatigue. When it comes to deep bass sound, I can tolerate up to about 120db hits before discomfort.

So, there is no question that I've reached the limit of my listening comfort and there is still sufficient noise to disturb my listening enjoyment. So, I MUST treat the car's acoustics! The only thing I hate is having to budget, buy things a little at a time and then do all the work to install it. I'd much rather be able to buy it all right now, hand it to someone programmed with my thoughts and have them do it. AKA, the summer heat has activated the lazy bug in my brain. :worried:


----------



## michaelsil1

It sounds like the MS-8 is a Magic Box; I suspect that's why it hasn't made to market yet.


I don't want to rain on the parade, but this unit was supposedly working very well a couple of years ago.


----------



## kkant

tspence73 said:


> So, when the folks in here are talking about, "detail" they are talking about quiet, subtle sounds that are being drowned out by the road noise and engine noise during driving. The only know way to recover these lost details in the sound and make them audible is to lower those noises as far as possible. Even 1db of noise reduced will be perceived as a gain in detail and quality to a finicky listener. I plan to fight for every decibel I can get back!


Yes, well, car audio is like that.  It's a crappy reflective environment with a ton of noise. Even with a year spent deadening with thousands of dollars of parts and materials, you'll still have at least 60 db of noise at cruise. A pair of $200 in-ear monitors will sound infinitely better and will not damage your ears. So...with car audio...turn it up, get (some of) the details, live fast, die young.  Or don't, and you will not hear as much on the quieter passages.

But lack of details is not really the issue, as far as speaker selection. You don't get more or less detail out of different speakers; you get more or less resonances and distortion. MS8 takes care of the former, but not the latter.


----------



## kkant

michaelsil1 said:


> It sounds like the MS-8 is a Magic Box; I suspect that's why it hasn't made to market yet.
> 
> 
> I don't want to rain on the parade, but this unit was supposedly working very well a couple of years ago.


As far as I can tell, the delay is due to software rewrites and integration. Not problems with the algorithms themselves. So, I would say, the glass is half full.

If it really was magic, it could've been magically integrated and we'd already have them.


----------



## m3gunner

Excellent point... simplicity rules again... :bowdown:



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I can see having the ability to use the iPhone as a remote, but I don't see the need for the PC. The menu is simple to use and would just be replicated on the PC, possibly with a colorful GUI. Why is a PC tool an attractive option?


----------



## tspence73

michaelsil1 said:


> It sounds like the MS-8 is a Magic Box; I suspect that's why it hasn't made to market yet.
> 
> 
> I don't want to rain on the parade, but this unit was supposedly working very well a couple of years ago.


Get out! We want to stay in pretend land for a while and you are ruining everything!


----------



## michaelsil1

tspence73 said:


> Get out! We want to stay in pretend land for a while and you are ruining everything!


----------



## 14642

60ndown said:


> my understanding is more expensive drivers reveal subtle differences, and subtlety can be enjoyed in a quiet room, but as you said, in a moving vehicle with 70db noise floor, that subtlety is impossible to hear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> additional cost reveals additional subtlety, not necessarily additional volume.


 
More expensive drivers just cost more, unless they, in fact are better. Better means lower distortion and flatter frequency response (irregular frequency response can be thought of as a kind of distortion. Plenty of expensive drivers are just some "artist's" idea of appropriate compromise between accptable and non acceptable forms of distortion. Paying more doesn't mean you get more.


----------



## 14642

Guys, 
Several of you have sent me email and PMs. Please be patient and I'll respond to all of them I'm getting killed preparing reports and presentations. 

No ETA yet. I'll provide one just as soon as I have a reliable date.


----------



## michaelsil1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> More expensive drivers just cost more, unless they, in fact are better. Better means lower distortion and flatter frequency response (irregular frequency response can be thought of as a kind of distortion. Plenty of expensive drivers are just some "artist's" idea of appropriate compromise between accptable and non acceptable forms of distortion. Paying more doesn't mean you get more.


Sometimes more is better.


----------



## Weightless

Andy,

Without having to re-read the entire thread, I have two questions:

1. Are there still going to be aux inputs?
2. Will there be the ability to eq the inputs?


----------



## cubdenno

michaelsil1 said:


> Sometimes more is better.


Yeah but sometimes more is just more. Like more money but not more performance. Thanks to this site, People have been educated n the law of diminishing returns. Give me a speaker that is EQ friendly!! Who cares about a name brand.


----------



## 14642

Weightless said:


> Andy,
> 
> Without having to re-read the entire thread, I have two questions:
> 
> 1. Are there still going to be aux inputs?
> 2. Will there be the ability to eq the inputs?


Yes, there are Aux inputs. No, there's no EQ for the inputs. Why would you need EQ for the inputs? If it's to make up for supposedly bad frrequency response of a media player, just EQ the output and save it as a favorite.


----------



## ibanzil

Is there any plan to have clipping indicators?


----------



## tspence73

ibanzil said:


> Is there any plan to have clipping indicators?


That is a very valid question. 

However, avoiding distortion is very likely going to fall on the end-user as the processor likely won't be applying limiting/compression. I think this is why a good deal of A/D digital converters are greater than 16-bit in order to work with a wider dynamic range and hotter signal after processing is done. EQ adjustment can many times stretch the signal out beyond the normal dynamic range, so I would have to think this processor is accomodating that fact.

It would be cool if the touchscreen display could show real time analysis and indicate when a signal is 'too hot', although it's not absolutely necessary.


----------



## 14642

Well...yes and no. Gain potentiometers, clipping indicators and all things like that are specificaly EXCLUDED from the definition of the product. We don't want users to have to fuss with all of that. Here's how it works, described as simply as I can do it. 

If you have speaker level outputs from your radio or factory amp, you connect them to the speaker level input connector. Factory amplifiers (the vast majority of them) us the same kind of output amps, so MS-8's speaker level inputs are designed specifically to work with them with no additional adjustment. The line level inputs are also fixed and designed to work with most head units. Line drivers shouldn't be used--the idea is to make this easy. 

The setup CD is not pink noise. It's a specific collection of tones and it's different in the left and right channels. The UN-EQ is designed to look for CORRELATION between the incoming signal and what it's expecting to receive (it knows the signal it's looking for). Linear changes to that signal--like a different frequency, phase or delay allw that correlation and are things that can be fixed. Non linear distortion--like clipping--prevent that correlation. A a bunch of nasty noise will too. No signal will also fail to correlate. Clipping from the head unit will also cause it to fail to correlate. When you're adjusting the volume during setup, the display will tell you whether the signal is too high, too low, too far right or too far left. Once it gives you the OK, then you know the level at which there's clipping--whether that's from the head unit or the inputs of MS-8. You make a note of that level on the head unit and that becomes your new "max volume"--if you're playing a signal with all high bits. For quieter recordings, you can use more volume control. For the most precise playback possible, you'd set the head unit volume there and leave it. Then, you'd use the MS-8's remote control for volume. That isn't necessary, though. You can use the head units volume control all you want, provided you can live with the occasional clipping that may happen if you turn the control up too far.

The benefit here is that you don't have to adjuct a bunch of imprecise potentiometers and the unit can determine the point of clipping regardless of which component is clipping.


----------



## Technic

What is the expected max high level input voltage/power of this MS-8?


----------



## tspence73

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well...yes and no. Gain potentiometers, clipping indicators and all things like that are specificaly EXCLUDED from the definition of the product. We don't want users to have to fuss with all of that. Here's how it works, described as simply as I can do it.
> 
> If you have speaker level outputs from your radio or factory amp, you connect them to the speaker level input connector. Factory amplifiers (the vast majority of them) us the same kind of output amps, so MS-8's speaker level inputs are designed specifically to work with them with no additional adjustment. The line level inputs are also fixed and designed to work with most head units. Line drivers shouldn't be used--the idea is to make this easy.
> 
> The setup CD is not pink noise. It's a specific collection of tones and it's different in the left and right channels. The UN-EQ is designed to look for CORRELATION between the incoming signal and what it's expecting to receive (it knows the signal it's looking for). Linear changes to that signal--like a different frequency, phase or delay allw that correlation and are things that can be fixed. Non linear distortion--like clipping--prevent that correlation. A a bunch of nasty noise will too. No signal will also fail to correlate. Clipping from the head unit will also cause it to fail to correlate. When you're adjusting the volume during setup, the display will tell you whether the signal is too high, too low, too far right or too far left. Once it gives you the OK, then you know the level at which there's clipping--whether that's from the head unit or the inputs of MS-8. You make a note of that level on the head unit and that becomes your new "max volume"--if you're playing a signal with all high bits. For quieter recordings, you can use more volume control. For the most precise playback possible, you'd set the head unit volume there and leave it. Then, you'd use the MS-8's remote control for volume. That isn't necessary, though. You can use the head units volume control all you want, provided you can live with the occasional clipping that may happen if you turn the control up too far.
> 
> The benefit here is that you don't have to adjuct a bunch of imprecise potentiometers and the unit can determine the point of clipping regardless of which component is clipping.


This is good to know. Then, the only thing left to worry about will be whether the amp's gain is set to avoid clipping at max unclipped volume then I'm set.  I'm really nervous about buying this and putting the tuning in the hands of anything automated. My system sounds pretty much how I want it to, so adding this processor could potentially make things sound worse. But the very precise and broad control over the EQ curve has me convinced that I'll be able to get this to sound perfect with enough effort. The presets on this thing will make things a lot easier. I keep forgetting how many presets we get. The more the better.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Andy, damn you for making this sound as bad ass as it probably is. Now I want one bad.


----------



## 60ndown

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well...yes and no. Gain potentiometers, clipping indicators and all things like that are specificaly EXCLUDED from the definition of the product. We don't want users to have to fuss with all of that. Here's how it works, described as simply as I can do it.
> 
> If you have speaker level outputs from your radio or factory amp, you connect them to the speaker level input connector. Factory amplifiers (the vast majority of them) us the same kind of output amps, so MS-8's speaker level inputs are designed specifically to work with them with no additional adjustment. The line level inputs are also fixed and designed to work with most head units. Line drivers shouldn't be used--the idea is to make this easy.
> 
> The setup CD is not pink noise. It's a specific collection of tones and it's different in the left and right channels. The UN-EQ is designed to look for CORRELATION between the incoming signal and what it's expecting to receive (it knows the signal it's looking for). Linear changes to that signal--like a different frequency, phase or delay allw that correlation and are things that can be fixed. Non linear distortion--like clipping--prevent that correlation. A a bunch of nasty noise will too. No signal will also fail to correlate. Clipping from the head unit will also cause it to fail to correlate. When you're adjusting the volume during setup, the display will tell you whether the signal is too high, too low, too far right or too far left. Once it gives you the OK, then you know the level at which there's clipping--whether that's from the head unit or the inputs of MS-8. You make a note of that level on the head unit and that becomes your new "max volume"--if you're playing a signal with all high bits. For quieter recordings, you can use more volume control. For the most precise playback possible, you'd set the head unit volume there and leave it. Then, you'd use the MS-8's remote control for volume. That isn't necessary, though. You can use the head units volume control all you want, provided you can live with the occasional clipping that may happen if you turn the control up too far.
> 
> The benefit here is that you don't have to adjuct a bunch of imprecise potentiometers and the unit can determine the point of clipping regardless of which component is clipping.


i love it.


----------



## tspence73

Yeah, this sounds so easy, even tspence can set it up.


----------



## donkeypunch22

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well...yes and no. Gain potentiometers, clipping indicators and all things like that are specificaly EXCLUDED from the definition of the product. We don't want users to have to fuss with all of that. Here's how it works, described as simply as I can do it.
> 
> If you have speaker level outputs from your radio or factory amp, you connect them to the speaker level input connector. Factory amplifiers (the vast majority of them) us the same kind of output amps, so MS-8's speaker level inputs are designed specifically to work with them with no additional adjustment. The line level inputs are also fixed and designed to work with most head units. Line drivers shouldn't be used--the idea is to make this easy.
> 
> The setup CD is not pink noise. It's a specific collection of tones and it's different in the left and right channels. The UN-EQ is designed to look for CORRELATION between the incoming signal and what it's expecting to receive (it knows the signal it's looking for). Linear changes to that signal--like a different frequency, phase or delay allw that correlation and are things that can be fixed. Non linear distortion--like clipping--prevent that correlation. A a bunch of nasty noise will too. No signal will also fail to correlate. Clipping from the head unit will also cause it to fail to correlate. When you're adjusting the volume during setup, the display will tell you whether the signal is too high, too low, too far right or too far left. Once it gives you the OK, then you know the level at which there's clipping--whether that's from the head unit or the inputs of MS-8. You make a note of that level on the head unit and that becomes your new "max volume"--if you're playing a signal with all high bits. For quieter recordings, you can use more volume control. For the most precise playback possible, you'd set the head unit volume there and leave it. Then, you'd use the MS-8's remote control for volume. That isn't necessary, though. You can use the head units volume control all you want, provided you can live with the occasional clipping that may happen if you turn the control up too far.
> 
> The benefit here is that you don't have to adjuct a bunch of imprecise potentiometers and the unit can determine the point of clipping regardless of which component is clipping.



rasta...


----------



## Ari

> Answers to some likely questions...
> 
> 2. Maximum input voltage on the RCAs is 2V and 15V on the speaker level inputs. The signal is converted directly into digital after the preamp buffer, so a high signal level is far less important in this device than in conventional ones. The input is fully differential, so there won't be noise. I suggest speaker level connections because they are COMPLETELY isolated from ground...


You noted in your original post on CS&P Forum that the max INPUT voltage is *2V for RCA* and *15V for Speaker Level*.

Andy -

Can I have further clarification from you please. If I have a aftermarket H/U (i.e. an Eclipse AVN DVD unit) that puts out 5V on the RCAs, then am I correct to assume that it would not be compatible with the MS-8? The solution to this problem would be for me to connect the speaker level outs on the Eclipse to the MS-8?



and...





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Line drivers shouldn't be used--the idea is to make this easy.


But a line driver is ok to use *after* the MS-8, correct? 

Thanks.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Ari said:


> You noted in your original post on CS&P Forum that the max INPUT voltage is *2V for RCA* and *15V for Speaker Level*.
> 
> Andy -
> 
> *Can I have further clarification from you please. If I have a aftermarket H/U (i.e. an Eclipse AVN DVD unit) that puts out 5V on the RCAs, then am I correct to assume that it would not be compatible with the MS-8? The solution to this problem would be for me to connect the speaker level outs on the Eclipse to the MS-8?*
> 
> 
> 
> and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But a line driver is ok to use *after* the MS-8, correct?
> 
> Thanks.


This addressed somewhere in this thread from one of my post. search thread for usb dac i think.


----------



## Lash

You guys do realize this thread was opened 01-19-2007?
Before that it was discussed in the CS&P Forum for 2 or 3 years.


----------



## Technic

Ari said:


> ...*15V for Speaker Level*.


Why OEM integration processors (bit one, 3SIXTY.2, Cleansweep and now the MS-8) insist in having high level inputs up to 20V like we are still in _1990_? 

Audiocontrol processors -with perhaps 50% the capabilities of any of those OEM processors, and perhaps 5% of what the MS-8 is supposed to be able to do- accept up to 40V which make it virtually compatible with 100% of the OEM systems out there with up to 400W per channel.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Lash said:


> You guys do realize this thread was opened 01-19-2007?
> Before that it was discussed in the CS&P Forum for 2 or 3 years.


Ah that reminds me. 

Still no gold plated RCA's?!


----------



## ItalynStylion

Lash said:


> You guys do realize this thread was opened 01-19-2007?
> Before that it was discussed in the CS&P Forum for 2 or 3 years.


Thanks for the update chief.


----------



## 14642

Technic said:


> Why OEM integration processors (bit one, 3SIXTY.2, Cleansweep and now the MS-8) insist in having high level inputs up to 20V like we are still in _1990_?
> 
> Audiocontrol processors -with perhaps 50% the capabilities of any of those OEM processors, and perhaps 5% of what the MS-8 is supposed to be able to do- accept up to 40V which make it virtually compatible with 100% of the OEM systems out there with up to 400W per channel.


If you have an OEM system that outputs 40 volts, I'll be happy to build you a resistor network that will make this work perfectly.


----------



## 14642

Ari said:


> You noted in your original post on CS&P Forum that the max INPUT voltage is *2V for RCA* and *15V for Speaker Level*.
> 
> Andy -
> 
> Can I have further clarification from you please. If I have a aftermarket H/U (i.e. an Eclipse AVN DVD unit) that puts out 5V on the RCAs, then am I correct to assume that it would not be compatible with the MS-8? The solution to this problem would be for me to connect the speaker level outs on the Eclipse to the MS-8?
> 
> 
> 
> and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But a line driver is ok to use *after* the MS-8, correct?
> 
> Thanks.


I don't think "incompatible" is the right word. It'll work fine, but you'll not want to use the last 10% or so of the voluem control, for recordings that have lots of sustained peaks at 0dB. Do you often listen with the volume all the way up? That's the only time your radio comes close to 5V. 3.5V would be only a 3dB difference in output level or 3dB of clipping if you look at it in the other direction--no big deal. Just turn the control down a little bit. 6dB would be about 2.5V

If the MS-8 goes in the trunk and the amps will too, a line driver is a waste of money. 

We've adjusted those max input leves a bit in the last couple of weeks. I'll consult the engineers. In any case, MS-8 is a good excuse not to get hung up on the details that simply don't matter--like all of this boosting of preamp signal levels and worrying about the difference of a volt or two.


----------



## Ari

_


Andy Wehmeyer said:



I don't think "incompatible" is the right word. It'll work fine, but you'll not want to use the last 10% or so of the voluem control, for recordings that have lots of sustained peaks at 0dB. Do you often listen with the volume all the way up? That's the only time your radio comes close to 5V. 3.5V would be only a 3dB difference in output level or 3dB of clipping if you look at it in the other direction--no big deal. Just turn the control down a little bit. 6dB would be about 2.5V

If the MS-8 goes in the trunk and the amps will too, a line driver is a waste of money. 

We've adjusted those max input leves a bit in the last couple of weeks. I'll consult the engineers. In any case, MS-8 is a good excuse not to get hung up on the details that simply don't matter--like all of this boosting of preamp signal levels and worrying about the difference of a volt or two.

Click to expand...

_

Thanks for addressing my inquiries at such a late hour. Good point on the peak voltage. I use the typical method of turning my volume 3/4 up, play 50Hz and 1KHz test tone and adjust my amp gains accordingly. If I'm reading you correctly, I'll just have to raise the volume up to Max and adjust from there.

Regarding my question about the line driver, it does wonders for my amp. I'm not sure what the MS-8's output voltage is but it wouldn't hurt for me to add the line driver after the MS-8, correct? The reason I'm asking is that the driver is keeping my amp gains really low.


----------



## n_olympios

Is your amp noisy when its gains are up high? That's the only case I'd justify the addition of a line driver, otherwise it's just another component in the chain, usually deteriorating the sound quality. Then again, the best solution would be to find a better - not noisy - amp, but I guess that usually costs more.


----------



## Technic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> *If you have an OEM system that outputs 40 volts*, I'll be happy to build you a resistor network that will make this work perfectly.


My OEM system _peaks_ at some 34-37V in a pair of channels at max volume; at a "normal" volume" at 22-23V. This "normal" volume is enough to saturate the bit one into not working properly, a device that supposedly accepts _20V peak _in their high level inputs. 

But that's not the issue, the issue is that a high level input rating of _15V peak _is nothing in _2009_, unless you *don't* want to sell this MS-8 to plenty of Audi/Mercedes/BMW owners with OEM Premium systems. Again, I don't see Audiocontrol having an issue with providing 40V max inputs in all their high level inputs devices, they just provide it. And I think that they have been doing this for the last 6-7 years.

So why nobody else can do the same if their processors are supposed to be more "advanced"?

Like I said personally to the bit one and the 3SIXTY.2 engineers, selling an $600-$800 MSRP processor that requires a $150 Audiocontrol device to install it in my car is not OEM integration, it is a patch. Much less a "resistor network"...


----------



## tspence73

Technic said:


> My OEM system _peaks_ at some 34-37V in a pair of channels at max volume; at a "normal" volume" at 22-23V. This "normal" volume is enough to saturate the bit one into not working properly, a device that supposedly accepts _20V peak _in their high level inputs.
> 
> But that's not the issue, the issue is that a high level input rating of _15V peak _is nothing in _2009_, unless you *don't* want to sell this MS-8 to plenty of Audi/Mercedes/BMW owners with OEM Premium systems. Again, I don't see Audiocontrol having an issue with providing 40V max inputs in all their high level inputs devices, they just provide it. And I think that they have been doing this for the last 6-7 years.
> 
> So why nobody else can do the same if their processors are supposed to be more "advanced"?
> 
> Like I said personally to the bit one and the 3SIXTY.2 engineers, selling an $600-$800 MSRP processor that requires a $150 Audiocontrol device to install it in my car is not OEM integration, it is a patch. Much less a "resistor network"...


Wait a minute. 22-24 volts when using a 2-ohm or 4-ohm speaker is equal to like 150-watts. Are you saying these premium systems are running large amplifiers? If so, then I would imagine you would want to stick with the OEM system of a BMW, Mercedes, etc because they are likely already calibrated to sound damn good and have more than enough power to satisfy any listener.


----------



## Technic

tspence73 said:


> Wait a minute. 22-24 volts when using a 2-ohm or 4-ohm speaker is equal to like 150-watts. Are you saying these premium systems are running large amplifiers? If so, then I would imagine you would want to stick with the OEM system of a BMW, Mercedes, etc because they are likely already calibrated to sound damn good and have more than enough power to satisfy any listener.


My OEM system puts out 825W peak into 16 speakers/9 channels.

I'm not "any listener" and I want to calibrate my sound the way I like it.


----------



## tspence73

Technic said:


> My OEM system puts out 825W peak into 16 speakers/9 channels.
> 
> I'm not "any listener" and I want to calibrate my sound the way I like it.


I think that JBL could make a varible resistor device for the high-level input section on the MS-8 if needed. Remember that the 825-watts PEAK in 9 channels isn't going to be 22-24 volts on each channel. Probably more like 30-45 watts or 10-14 volts per channel.


----------



## Technic

tspence73 said:


> I think that JBL could make a varible resistor device for the high-level input section on the MS-8 if needed. Remember that the 825-watts PEAK in 9 channels isn't going to be 22-24 volts on each channel. Probably more like 30-45 watts or *10-14 volts per channel*.


Not in the 2 OEM subwoofers channels of the OEM amp, those are the ones with peaks in the _measured_ 30V+ range.


----------



## 60ndown

Technic said:


> My OEM system puts out 825W peak into 16 speakers/9 channels.
> 
> I'm not "any listener" and I want to calibrate my sound the way I like it.


the easy solution will be to trade my 1992 toyota for whatever 'piece' you drive and then install what you want


----------



## tspence73

Technic said:


> Not in the 2 OEM subwoofers channels of the OEM amp, those are the ones with peaks in the _measured_ 30V+ range.


Now that can be possible. Sub amp channels are typically going to output that much. It's not uncommon. So, then a legit point has been made. When it comes to OEM systems with multi-channel surround, the sub channel from the high-level input could be too hot for the MS-8 processor. What do you think Andy?


----------



## Problemhouston

If I start fiberglassing the sub in my trunk using HD/Bondo brand resin will the MS-8 be out by the time it hardens?

I have been awaiting this unit ever since I read about it in the stock BMW. I have a 2008 328xi that has thus far been the biggest pain to try and find replacement drivers and amps for. I will continue to wait for this product as it will make my life so much easier.

I say hurry up but the GF says take your time:mean:


----------



## Babs

Hmm... For the price.. All the processing, routing the 4 balanced channels from my OEM and any other player via Aux to the MS-8, then from post1 (20W x 8 at 4 ohms, 30W at 2 ohms). I'm considering the possibilities with this thing by itself, maybe with just a sub amp for heavy duty if the amp channels are clean enough for normal 4ohm drivers of decent efficiency.

Once more, glad to see this little goodie is still in the skunk-works and not moth-balled.


----------



## Ari

Andy also said that the "8 output channels and they can be pre-amp channels or powered channels." Can some output channels be pre-amp and some be powered? That is to day: is it possible to use the MS-8's internal amp to power the rear speakers and have external amps to power my fronts and sub?


----------



## Lash

Babs said:


> Once more, glad to see this little goodie is still in the skunk-works and not moth-balled.


Skunk-works? It smells dead to me.


----------



## 14642

Ari said:


> Andy also said that the "8 output channels and they can be pre-amp channels or powered channels." Can some output channels be pre-amp and some be powered? That is to day: is it possible to use the MS-8's internal amp to power the rear speakers and have external amps to power my fronts and sub?


Of course!


----------



## 14642

Technic said:


> My OEM system puts out 825W peak into 16 speakers/9 channels.
> 
> I'm not "any listener" and I want to calibrate my sound the way I like it.


Which OEM System do you have?


----------



## 14642

Technic said:


> Much less a "resistor network"...


A resistor network would simply act as a voltage divider so the appropriate voltage would be applied to the input of MS-8. THAT'S how this is done, whether the network is internal or external and whether it's fixed or adjustable. That's what the potentiometer on the other products is. 

30 V peak is 21 V RMS, and if MS-8 is rated to accept up to 20VRMS, then you'll be 0.4dB above the highest rated input voltage. No biggie. This is really splitting hairs, guys. I realize the inductry has hammered output voltage ratings into everyone's heads in the in the interest of selling all kinds of useless crap, but the output voltage isn't the "new" amplifier power for preamp circuits. Is it helpful to have higher voltage? To a point, yes. Is it a huge deal? Only if it eliminates noise. 

Please try to remember that those ratings are often peak ratings and have to be converted to RMS to be useful. In order to do that, multiply by .707.


----------



## Technic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Which OEM System do you have?


BMW Individual Audio...


----------



## vinny

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> 2. The 31-band EQ precisely tracks the curve you draw with the "sliders". With most graphic EQs, adjusting two adjacent bands in the same direction (say +6dB) will give you quite a bit more boost at a frequency in between the two sliders. If the filter Qs are narrow, you'll get two peaks at the proper amplitude, but with a hole in the middle. The EQ in MS-8 adjusts all the adjacent bands automatically to precisely match the curve you draw.
> 
> 3. The UN-EQ not only flattens the response, but it also removes any channel delay present in the OE system.


1. So you guys played around with the Qs to so that there is no bump or valley?

2. Do OEM systems have time delay?


----------



## vinny

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, you can tweak the crossovers if you want, but you MUST run the EQ again after making those adjustments.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No ETA yet. I'll provide one just as soon as I have a reliable date.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The setup CD is not pink noise. It's a specific collection of tones and it's different in the left and right channels.


Now if we make these measurements at 70mph presumably the mics will be hear the road noise and compensate Right?

Also Andy will there be anyway to dial in the location of the subwoofer. With the Alpine HUs I have (7998/9835) I can TA the subwoofer to make it sound like it is located in the engine bay or bit ahead of the dash (not that this is nesscarily a desireable thing).

I smell Group Buy!


----------



## LondonRS4

I want to make a plea for serious line level outputs from this unit. Having had to buy a AudioControl Matrix plus another small voltage amp to boost the outputs of the Alpine unit, I find this annoying and space consuming. The H650 has 15 dB of "insertion loss" which is inexcusable. I had to put 18 dB of gain on the end to be able to drive my DLS RA-40s to full output. So the JBL unit should put out about a volt full scale in my opinion, not the 70 mv the Alpine unit does.


----------



## Babs

Here's a good trick.. Can the channels power the speakers AND use the preout to ext amp for the same channels? Don't know why you'd wanna get into that situation but just wondering for ****s and giggles.


----------



## t3sn4f2

LondonRS4 said:


> I want to make a plea for serious line level outputs from this unit. Having had to buy a AudioControl Matrix plus another small voltage amp to boost the outputs of the Alpine unit, I find this annoying and space consuming. The H650 has 15 dB of "insertion loss" which is inexcusable. I had to put 18 dB of gain on the end to be able to drive my DLS RA-40s to full output. So the JBL unit should put out about a volt full scale in my opinion, *not the 70 mv the Alpine unit does.*


Really?! That's strange. The unit was reviewed by the founder of this site and found to have strong outputs.


----------



## Bizarroterl

Andy,
Thanks for posting here. It's appreciated and rare that a manufacturer will answer questions about an upcoming product and put up with the inevitable "keyboard naysayers".

I recently bought a new vehicle and I had my equipment list all filled out. Now that's all on hold until the MS-8 is released.


----------



## michaelsil1

Bizarroterl said:


> Andy,
> Thanks for posting here. It's appreciated and rare that a manufacturer will answer questions about an upcoming product and put up with the inevitable "keyboard naysayers".



Andy,

Your willingness to answer our questions is rare indeed, kudos. :thumbsup:


----------



## LondonRS4

t3sn4f2 said:


> Really?! That's strange. The unit was reviewed by the founder of this site and found to have strong outputs.


Well, it ain't true. It couldn't drive my PDX's on max gain and it can't drive my DLS RA-40s either. Both supposedly go to full scale with 200 mV at their max gain settings. So I put it on the bench and for 400 mV in from the HU it produces 70 mV out. When I went to engineering school, that translated into a 15 dB loss. 

Now, in fairness, I have not run through the Audyssey process yet due to the low output. I wonder whether it goes up if you do ? Something to try in the next couple of days when I have some time.


----------



## Bizarroterl

2 of the reviews on the Crutchfield site comment about low output levels.


----------



## vinny

LondonRS4 said:


> The H650 has 15 dB of "insertion loss" which is inexcusable.





LondonRS4 said:


> So I put it on the bench and for 400 mV in from the HU it produces 70 mV out.





Bizarroterl said:


> 2 of the reviews on the Crutchfield site comment about low output levels.



we managed to get enough output to drive our amps (Infinty 5350a / Steg K4-01/2-01) to produce enough output. I think the trick is to lower the gains of the amps (we set the gains to about 33%) then raise them after the calib is done. We did this some time ago so I cant remember the exact steps. we also ran the EQ calibration at 6 different locations in the car (we removed the head rests and sat the mic on the top of the back rest).

The 650 did somethings well but..offered no user programmable settings just 4 EQ curves to choose from. It also offers no control over the TA or subwoofer level. We tricked the EQ part by calibrating the 650 with the XO's HPF filter set to +3db and then bringing it down to 0db. This toned the treble down. To trick the sub level lower the gains on the sub amp a bit and then you have some room to lay with after calib.

We have not figured out a way to trick the TA as I would love to push the sub's localization a bit more in front. One option might be to set the mic on the dash instead of the back rest.

With a product like the MS-8 you dont need to 'trick' you can dial in the settings you like just like you would do with many mid-fi HUs (including Alpine's own 9835 and 7998).


----------



## LondonRS4

Yeah the irony of my setup is that the Kenwood DNX7140 does allow TA on separate speakers front and rear. But I have DSP bypassed on it so I can have the H650 do all the work. Still working on optimization, but I have to say if you compare the demo mode to the calculated mode, the H650 is definitely improving things. I'm trying some experiments using the mike to the left and right shoulder of a seated passenger and driver and this seems to be making a huge difference in the accuracy of the treble. This is probably not surprising, but I will report on it with my RTA graphs later on when I think I fully understand everything.


----------



## AWC

Imprint's output level AND noise levels are all in direct proportion to the trickery we use to fool the program rather than a completely copesthetic install THEN running the program. 

IOW, when you have a mediocre install, the noise levels we've all complained about are dramtically increased which makes sense if you consider that all adjustments work better as a cut, rather than boost. This reduces output and the result is also an increase in noise since we raise the gains to compensate.

BUT!!!! If you run the first position of that test, then take those measurements and fix phase, levels and other basic needs of a GOOD install, then the program can really do some fantastic things after those issues are corrected.

Still...THE ONLY TO BEAT CAR AUDIO!!! seems to be with a center channel AND rear-fill so the MS-8 is still going to be THE TITS!!! if it comes out into what we call "reality"


----------



## michaelsil1

AWC said:


> Imprint's output level AND noise levels are all in direct proportion to the trickery we use to fool the program rather than a completely copesthetic install THEN running the program.
> 
> IOW, when you have a mediocre install, the noise levels we've all complained about are dramtically increased which makes sense if you consider that all adjustments work better as a cut, rather than boost. This reduces output and the result is also an increase in noise since we raise the gains to compensate.
> 
> BUT!!!! If you run the first position of that test, then take those measurements and fix phase, levels and other basic needs of a GOOD install, then the program can really do some fantastic things after those issues are corrected.
> 
> Still...THE ONLY TO BEAT CAR AUDIO!!! seems to be with a center channel AND rear-fill so the MS-8 is still going to be THE TITS!!! if it comes out into what we call "reality"


I agree if the issues are addressed the Imprint does a very good job. If they aren't addressed Imprint does what it can and the results may be far from desirable.


----------



## AWC

michaelsil1 said:


> I agree if the issues are addressed the Imprint does a very good job. If they aren't addressed Imprint does what it can and the results may be far from desirable.


plus the 9887's left sub works as a great center, provided you can put an hp on it and work around the loss of immediate sub controls. This is the basis of my current future install which only exists because waiting for this thing was taking longer than I expected. So I worked it out my own way and agree that 5.1 is the only answer


----------



## oneeggs

Hi Andy: I'm new to DIY (2 days). I have 2 simple questions: Will the MS 8 be compatible with the OEM Bose/Nav HU in my 09 Corvette? What's your best estimate of availability? FYI: JBL Technical Service (in India) could or would not admit to the MS 8's existence.


----------



## ItalynStylion

ROFL....JBL India


----------



## LondonRS4

vinny said:


> The 650 did somethings well but..offered no user programmable settings just 4 EQ curves to choose from. It also offers no control over the TA or subwoofer level. .




Not true of the H650 it turns out. Both TA and level are adjustable for each of the 2 initial Mic positions you use. Level and TA is adjustable for every speaker, including the sub. Just press the mode button twice and you can get to the custom settings menu that allows all this.


----------



## 86mr2

ItalynStylion said:


> ROFL....JBL India


What's so funny?


----------



## IBcivic

86mr2 said:


> What's so funny?


curious....


----------



## 14642

oneeggs said:


> Hi Andy: I'm new to DIY (2 days). I have 2 simple questions: Will the MS 8 be compatible with the OEM Bose/Nav HU in my 09 Corvette? What's your best estimate of availability? FYI: JBL Technical Service (in India) could or would not admit to the MS 8's existence.


It'll work in your Corvette. I'm not providing any more estimates of delivery until I have a date from engineering and manufacturing that's reliable. Sorry, but I've given unreliable dates too many times in the past.


----------



## 14642

Hey Stallion,
Buy yourself a plane ticket to Mumbai--You'll be shocked by car stereo in India.


----------



## ItalynStylion

I was just cracking up at the idea of him arguing over the phone with this guy first trying to get past the dialect barrier and then getting him to admit to the MS-8's existence. I'm sorry but I think it would have been funny to hear.


----------



## 86mr2

ItalynStylion said:


> trying to get past the dialect barrier


Oh, I see. Like a guy from New York trying to get tech support from Texas? Yeah that _would _be funny to hear.


----------



## ItalynStylion

86mr2 said:


> Oh, I see. Like a guy from New York trying to get tech support from Texas? Yeah that _would _be funny to hear.


Oh hell yeah. My cousins (from Long Island) think it's hilarious every time I say 'Yall'. But then when they say 'Cowwffe' or 'Daawg' it's just as good for me.


----------



## AdamTaylor

ItalynStylion said:


> Oh hell yeah. My cousins (from Long Island) think it's hilarious every time I say 'Yall'. But then when they say 'Cowwffe' or 'Daawg' it's just as good for me.


ha, im the same way.... people look at me like i just kicked their son in the head when i say yall and then proceed to ask me for a "pop" .... wtf there is more than 1 kind of SODA, not pop


----------



## Wheres The Butta

AdamTaylor said:


> ha, im the same way.... people look at me like i just kicked their son in the head when i say yall and then proceed to ask me for a "pop" .... wtf there is more than 1 kind of SODA, not pop


what other kinds of soda are there? besides baking soda, which people obviously wouldn't be drinking.


----------



## 14642

I remember calling Dell tech support in Austin (where I used to live) from Long Island and finally asking how many of them I had to talk to before they'd connect me with someone in India who could help me fix my problem...they didn't like that.


----------



## 86mr2

Now THAT is an LOL.:lol:


----------



## AdamTaylor

bd5034 said:


> what other kinds of soda are there? besides baking soda, which people obviously wouldn't be drinking.


you dont remember the old "SODA Fountains" back in the 50's ... not POP fountains


this is about as OT as i think we can get


----------



## plouffy

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I remember calling Dell tech support in Austin (where I used to live) from Long Island and finally asking how many of them I had to talk to before they'd connect me with someone in India who could help me fix my problem...they didn't like that.


well played sir!


----------



## instalher

thats funny, we up here in canada have the same problem with tech support in the states where they still think canada is "somewhere up north" and we still live in snow huts.. to funny!


----------



## Mike Troll

instalher said:


> thats funny, we up here in canada have the same problem with tech support in the states where they still think canada is "somewhere up north" and we still live in snow huts.. to funny!



You dont?


----------



## Wheres The Butta

so I have a question that's actually related to the MS8 processor.

It was suggested somewhere earlier on in the thread that the individual drivers that are selected for the system will not matter very much as long as it gets loud enough for the listener's personal tastes.

My question is twofold: 

can tonal accuracy be entirely controlled by EQ? I know many people talk about speakers being "warm" or "harsh" and myriad other clever descriptions for sound... can all of this be manipulated by EQ? If so, can the ms8 actually make a low end jensen sound like a high end focal in terms of timbre/tone?

part two: what about the level of detail a speaker provides? I know, for example, that the focal set I have is noticeably more detailed than the JL audio ZR set i was using before. I can hear sounds that simply were not reproduced effectively with the JL set. Chimes and bells shimmer with such startling accuracy, and the plucking of a guitar string sounds so much more natural and vibrant.


----------



## kkant

bd5034 said:


> can tonal accuracy be entirely controlled by EQ? I know many people talk about speakers being "warm" or "harsh" and myriad other clever descriptions for sound... can all of this be manipulated by EQ? If so, can the ms8 actually make a low end jensen sound like a high end focal in terms of timbre/tone?


Provided the volume is low enough, yes on the EQ. Haven't heard the MS8 yet, but I suspect the answer is yes for that as well.



bd5034 said:


> part two: what about the level of detail a speaker provides? I know, for example, that the focal set I have is noticeably more detailed than the JL audio ZR set i was using before. I can hear sounds that simply were not reproduced effectively with the JL set. Chimes and bells shimmer with such startling accuracy, and the plucking of a guitar string sounds so much more natural and vibrant.


What we call detail is a combination of several fundamentals, like noise floor and frequency response. Frequency response can vary greatly depending on the speakers themselves, the crossovers, and speaker positioning. EQ (including the MS8) can adjust the response, but not the noise. There are two ways to deal with the noise floor: sound deadening and increased dynamic range. Increased dynamic range means better speakers.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

kkant said:


> Provided the volume is low enough, yes on the EQ. Haven't heard the MS8 yet, but I suspect the answer is yes for that as well.
> 
> What we call detail is a combination of several fundamentals, like noise floor and frequency response. Frequency response can vary greatly depending on the speakers themselves, the crossovers, and speaker positioning. EQ (including the MS8) can adjust the response, but not the noise. There are two ways to deal with the noise floor: sound deadening and increased dynamic range. Increased dynamic range means better speakers.


that's basically what i was asking.


----------



## 14642

kkant said:


> Provided the volume is low enough, yes on the EQ. Haven't heard the MS8 yet, but I suspect the answer is yes for that as well.
> 
> What we call detail is a combination of several fundamentals, like noise floor and frequency response. Frequency response can vary greatly depending on the speakers themselves, the crossovers, and speaker positioning. EQ (including the MS8) can adjust the response, but not the noise. There are two ways to deal with the noise floor: sound deadening and increased dynamic range. Increased dynamic range means better speakers.


Yup. These are the right answers, for the most part. 

If the bad sound from cheap speakers is the result of non-linear distortion, EQ can't fix that--well, it can, but there aren't yet any car audio processors that include this capability


----------



## Wheres The Butta

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yup. These are the right answers, for the most part.
> 
> If the bad sound from cheap speakers is the result of non-linear distortion, EQ can't fix that--well, it can, but there aren't yet any car audio processors that include this capability


thanks


----------



## LondonRS4

Mike Troll said:


> You dont?



No we live in igloos you dumb ass . They aren't huts, they are an advanced self supporting structures that you can huff and puff but can't blow down. Huts on the other hand....


----------



## kkant

bd5034 said:


> that's basically what i was asking.


Keep in mind also that, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread, a "better" speaker does not necessarily mean more expensive or more famous. There are many instances of better (more linear) speakers being cheaper.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

kkant said:


> Keep in mind also that, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread, a "better" speaker does not necessarily mean more expensive or more famous. There are many instances of better (more linear) speakers being cheaper.



"better" can mean lots of things. it can mean the ability to play louder, due to either high sensitivity, higher power handling due to sturdy construction and high quality parts; or it can mean linear output, or even the aesthetic qualities of the speaker if we're including very high end stuff.


----------



## kkant

bd5034 said:


> it can mean the ability to play louder, due to either high sensitivity


Not very relevant. Only matters if power is limited. In car audio we are blessed with a profusion of inexpensive and powerful amps. If you're buying Focal speakers, amplification shouldn't be a problem.



bd5034 said:


> higher power handling due to sturdy construction and high quality parts; or it can mean linear output


All this falls under the umbrella of linearity. The relevant characteristic is total linearity after all thermal and mechanical effects are taken into account. IOW, measured linearity. To me, linearity and linear output amount to much the same thing. All speakers are linear enough at low enough volumes. And in any given size, most speakers can put out about the same volume as long as you're willing to distort the weaker ones.



bd5034 said:


> or even the aesthetic qualities of the speaker if we're including very high end stuff.


True...if that is important to you.


----------



## 14642

Well...my speakers are mounted behind grilles and no one can see them--so the cosmetics don't much matter. However, once this MS-8 is finished, I'm mounting it to a neon-lit, rhinestone laden, rotatong platform 30 feet above the roof of my car so everyone can see that it's real, that it's finally finished and it's what makes the car sound great.


----------



## Technic

I like the sound of "rotatong"... it reminds me of strippers.


----------



## Mike Troll

LondonRS4 said:


> No we live in igloos you dumb ass . They aren't huts, they are an advanced self supporting structures that you can huff and puff but can't blow down. Huts on the other hand....


LOL, you learn something new everyday. 

I am sure people think us floridians all live on the beach in pomfron shacks. lol


----------



## 14642

Mike Troll said:


> LOL, you learn something new everyday.
> 
> I am sure people think us floridians all live on the beach in pomfron shacks. lol


Well...I'm sure the insurance companies would like that. Those would be easier to rebuild EVERY year when the big bad wolf--i mean hurricane--comes and blows them down.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

kkant said:


> Not very relevant. Only matters if power is limited. In car audio we are blessed with a profusion of inexpensive and powerful amps. If you're buying Focal speakers, amplification shouldn't be a problem.


false. a speaker with higher sensitivity will play louder with the same amount of power, all else considered equal.


kkant said:


> All this falls under the umbrella of linearity. The relevant characteristic is total linearity after *all thermal and mechanical effects are taken into account.* IOW, measured linearity.


 so what you're saying is that if we discard thermal and mechanical constraints.... oh wait that's that defeats the entire purpose. 
I might as well say that I can play basketball as well as Michael Jordan, but only if I were as tall as he was and possessed the same talent.



kkant said:


> To me, linearity and linear output amount to much the same thing. All speakers are linear enough at low enough volumes. * And in any given size, most speakers can put out about the same volume as long as you're willing to distort the weaker ones.*True...if that is important to you.


false. you've obviously never blown a speaker, torn a spider, or ripped a surround. higher quality parts and sturdy construction absolutely allow certain speakers to play louder than others


----------



## Wheres The Butta

I don't really know what point you're trying to make, but it seems obvious that you've flown right over the point itself. 

You've included some facts, and it appears you have a grasp of loudspeaker mechanics, but you've used a shoddy inductive argument and reached some inaccurate conclusions.


----------



## kkant

bd5034 said:


> false. a speaker with higher sensitivity will play louder with the same amount of power, all else considered equal.


All else is not equal, so once again, this is irrelevant. As long as you can afford the amps, and it would appear that you can. 



bd5034 said:


> so what you're saying is that if we discard thermal and mechanical constraints.... oh wait that's that defeats the entire purpose.
> I might as well say that I can play basketball as well as Michael Jordan, but only if I were as tall as he was and possessed the same talent.


Ypu completely misread me. Read again. 



bd5034 said:


> false. you've obviously never blown a speaker, torn a spider, or ripped a surround. higher quality parts and sturdy construction absolutely allow certain speakers to play louder than others


I've blown many speakers, young grasshopper. That was usually my fault, not the speakers. There is something to be said for build quality, but In general if you get a well designed linear driver, build quality is just fine.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

kkant said:


> All else is not equal, so once again, this is irrelevant. As long as you can afford the amps, and it would appear that you can.
> 
> Ypu completely misread me. Read again.
> 
> I've blown many speakers, young grasshopper. That was usually my fault, not the speakers. There is something to be said for build quality, but In general if you get a well designed linear driver, build quality is just fine.


I did indeed misunderstand the second part. However, I still intensely disagree with your first and last statements.

Sensitivity is quite important to me. If one seeks a very high level of output, sensitivity is of the utmost importance, as is the thermal and mechanical power handling, which are direct results of the design, the quality of construction, and materials used.

If I want 130db and higher on my front stage alone, I'll need alot of amplification (I've got 1200wrms on tap so obviously amplification is not an issue...) but the speakers must be able to handle all that power. The speakers also need to be sensitive.


----------



## kkant

bd5034 said:


> If I want 130db and higher on my front stage alone, I'll need alot of amplification (I've got 1200wrms on tap so obviously amplification is not an issue...) but the speakers must be able to handle all that power. The speakers also need to be sensitive.


At 130 db with 1200W of power, sensitivity does not matter even a little bit. Put that notion out of your mind. Sensitivity only matters if you have a very small amp , and you want to maximize the volume from it.

As you correctly pointed out, build quality can be a concern. My point is if you choose a driver which measures linear at the volumes you want, you generally don't have to sweat build quality. Lack of thermal and mechanical powerhandling shows up as nonlinearity before it shows up as a blown speaker. Plus drivers which are so linear tend to have high build quality anyway.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

kkant said:


> At 130 db with 1200W of power, sensitivity does not matter even a little bit. Put that notion out of your mind. Sensitivity only matters if you have a very small amp , and you want to maximize the volume from it.
> 
> As you correctly pointed out, build quality can be a concern. My point is if you choose a driver which measures linear at the volumes you want, you generally don't have to sweat build quality. Lack of thermal and mechanical powerhandling shows up as nonlinearity before it shows up as a blown speaker. Plus drivers which are so linear tend to have high build quality anyway.


I have a tangential question:

I've addressed this before, but I feel that the response didn't cover it 100% and I want to be thoroughly sure. Why can I hear things on one speaker that I can not hear on another? For example: I can hear distinct individuation between every single strike of a hammer on a xylephone on one set of speakers, but on another they seem to blend. Same goes for hearing each individual guitar string when the musician strums the guitar, rather than simply hearing the chord as a whole.

edit: also, I'd like to stress once again that sensitivity matters - even at high power levels. a more efficient speaker will have higher output with the same amount of power.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

I'm not sure if you've read any of my other posts, but just so you know.... I like my music as loud as it can possibly get without distortion. So to me, things like thermal / mechanical power handling and sensitivity are very important. I really do run my system to the ragged edge.


----------



## kkant

bd5034 said:


> I've addressed this before, but I feel that the response didn't cover it 100% and I want to be thoroughly sure. Why can I hear things on one speaker that I can not hear on another? For example: I can hear distinct individuation between every single strike of a hammer on a xylephone on one set of speakers, but on another they seem to blend. Same goes for hearing each individual guitar string when the musician strums the guitar, rather than simply hearing the chord as a whole.


These are differences in frequency response, which can be caused by many things. Speakers, crossover, install, placement, and tuning.



bd5034 said:


> edit: also, I'd like to stress once again that sensitivity matters - even at high power levels. a more efficient speaker will have higher output with the same amount of power.


Your limits at high power are thermal and mechanical. The things that make a speaker more sensitive at low power levels (eg low moving mass) are not necessarily the things that make it capable of handling large thermal loads linearly with the same power efficiency. IOW, you can't multiply your 1W sensitivity by log(power) and expect to know how loud a speaker will get at high power levels. So, sensitivity doesn't matter. Go for high measured linearity at high power, and you will be good. I like it loud too, so we are on the same page.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

kkant said:


> These are differences in frequency response, which can be caused by many things. Speakers, crossover, install, placement, and tuning.
> 
> Your limits at high power are thermal and mechanical. The things that make a speaker more sensitive at low power levels (eg low moving mass) are not necessarily the things that make it capable of handling large thermal loads linearly with the same power efficiency. IOW, you can't multiply your 1W sensitivity by log(power) and expect to know how loud a speaker will get at high power levels. So, sensitivity doesn't matter. Go for high measured linearity at high power, and you will be good. I like it loud too, so we are on the same page.


I'm confused then. I know that thermal/mechanical factors allow a speaker to take more power and thus get louder. I know this is seperate from sensitivity. 

What I'm saying is that two speakers A and B have sensitivity of 97 and 100 respectively. Speaker B will be more efficient with the same power, and thus be louder. I'm not saying that speaker B can handle more power, I'm simply saying that given the exact same power, it should theoretically be louder. That is the explanation that I've gotten from any definition of sensitivity I've read.


----------



## kkant

bd5034 said:


> What I'm saying is that two speakers A and B have sensitivity of 97 and 100 respectively. Speaker B will be more efficient with the same power, and thus be louder. I'm not saying that speaker B can handle more power, I'm simply saying that given the exact same power, it should theoretically be louder. That is the explanation that I've gotten from any definition of sensitivity I've read.


This is correct, for low power usage. If you are running your speakers off your HU for example, B will be louder and in general all else equal for that purpose B would be better. But you can't scale the theoretical sensitivity to high power, and assume the efficiency stays the same (or even assume that the efficiency decreases at the same rate for both speakers). That is why the 1W sensitivity doesn't matter.

For high power car audio, the 1W sensitivity is pretty much meaningless. And with the MS8 coming out, soon presumably, you don't have to worry too much about frequency response either. What matters most is linearity with excursion.

There is one place the freq response does matter, indirectly: out-of-band breakup nodes. These peaks occur outside the range you are using the speaker, but can be excited by non-linear distortion in the passband. This is something that current EQ's (including the MS8 I think) can't correct for. So, you want to either get a driver that has small peaks, or ensure that you exclude those nonlinearities from the passband, or if the passband must include those particular nonlinearities, make sure they are small.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

kkant said:


> This is correct, for low power usage. If you are running your speakers off your HU for example, B will be louder and in general all else equal for that purpose B would be better. But you can't scale the theoretical sensitivity to high power, and assume the efficiency stays the same (or even assume that the efficiency decreases at the same rate for both speakers). That is why the 1W sensitivity doesn't matter.
> 
> For high power car audio, the 1W sensitivity is pretty much meaningless. And with the MS8 coming out, soon presumably, you don't have to worry too much about frequency response either. What matters most is linearity with excursion.
> 
> There is one place the freq response does matter, indirectly: out-of-band breakup nodes. These peaks occur outside the range you are using the speaker, but can be excited by non-linear distortion in the passband. This is something that current EQ's (including the MS8 I think) can't correct for. So, you want to either get a driver that has small peaks, or ensure that you exclude those nonlinearities from the passband, or if the passband must include those particular nonlinearities, make sure they are small.


hm.. I've never heard that sensitivity was thrown out the window in high power applications. I'd like for others to verify this because it's such an important, fundamental concept.

I think I understand what you're saying. 

It's not that sensitivity doesn't matter. It matters in the sense that it allows a speaker to reach the maximum level of output with less power. What happens when a speaker hits the limit and beings to distort is the mechanical / thermal threshold has been reached. 

Sort of like saving weight on a performance car. It performs better because less effort is required to move the object in question. This works, up to a point..... at 180 mph there are many other factors at play besides the weight of the car, such that the weight becomes unimportant as compared to the amount of power and the aerodynamics.

The speaker with higher sensitivity will reach the mechanical stress threshold with lower power as compared to the speaker with lower sensitivity. That's why all you need is a little more power to make the less sensitive speaker reach the very same mechanical threshold and level of output. (assuming both can thermally handle the power)

Tell me if I've understood this correctly.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

by the way, if all this jazz is accurate, there are a whole lot of other people out there that can benefit from this dialogue. I'd like to reference this from now on any time someone has a question about sensitivity and its usefulness as a determining variable in high power applications.


----------



## VP Electricity

I also think that 1W-1M is useless at higher power levels. There is no reason to assume linearity, and freq response does change with power input (due to nonlinear compression, is one way to look at it, but it's a bit circular).


----------



## Wheres The Butta

keep in mind I'm a complete novice in terms of loudspeaker design and the physics behind the behavior of speakers. I have an intermediate knowledge of electricity and installation / design, but when it comes to the actual quantification of stereo, I'm entirely out of my element. This sort of conversation is helpful to me, even if it takes me out of my comfort zone.


----------



## kkant

bd5034 said:


> It's not that sensitivity doesn't matter. It matters in the sense that it allows a speaker to reach the maximum level of output with less power. What happens when a speaker hits the limit and beings to distort is the mechanical / thermal threshold has been reached.
> ...
> The speaker with higher sensitivity will reach the mechanical stress threshold with lower power as compared to the speaker with lower sensitivity. That's why all you need is a little more power to make the less sensitive speaker reach the very same mechanical threshold and level of output. (assuming both can thermally handle the power)


This is true at least to some degree, but it is kind of missing the point. What it comes down to is this: mechanical displacement is what produces sound. More linear displacement = louder and better sound. Everything else supports more linear displacement. Since power is essentially free, it doesn't matter if it takes more or less power to get to a certain volume. What matters is what the maximum measured linear output of the driver is, given infinite power. That was my point, when I said sensitivity doesn't matter.

There are some thermal nonlinear effects like power compression that at first glance might appear to be affected by sensitivity (since it might appear to take less power to get a certain db level). My point in one of my other posts is that these nonlinearities are (1) subsumed and included in the linear output measurement, and (2) not actually related to sensitivity anyway, since the things that increase 1W sensitivity are often not the things that decrease power compression.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

*


kkant said:



This is true at least to some degree, but it is kind of missing the point. What it comes down to is this: mechanical displacement is what produces sound. More linear displacement = louder and better sound. Everything else supports more linear displacement. Since power is essentially free, it doesn't matter if it takes more or less power to get to a certain volume. What matters is what the maximum measured linear output of the driver is, given infinite power. That was my point, when I said sensitivity doesn't matter.

Click to expand...

*


kkant said:


> QUOTE]
> 
> That's effectively what I was saying. I did note, however, that it's significant that higher sensitivity allows a driver to reach the maximum linear displacement with less power. Power isn't free in the overall scheme of things. Amplifiers take up space, they draw current, and they most certainly cost money
> 
> Perhaps it's a moot point in reference to the ability of a driver to get loud, but increasing the amount of power certainly has ramifications when all things are considered. In that respect, sensitivity turns out to be a valuable statistic I suppose.


----------



## kkant

bd5034 said:


> Perhaps it's a moot point in reference to the ability of a driver to get loud, but increasing the amount of power certainly has ramifications when all things are considered. In that respect, sensitivity turns out to be a valuable statistic I suppose.


This only makes sense if all max outputs are created equal--which is only the case at low HU power levels. At high power levels max outputs are not equal and are not predicted by sensitivity, so we come back to the beginning: sensitivity doesn't matter. If we can get equal output with less power, then that's great--I'm not going to argue against that--but again, sensitivity doesn't predict or provide this at high power.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

kkant said:


> This only makes sense if all max outputs are created equal--which is only the case at low HU power levels. At high power levels max outputs are not equal and are not predicted by sensitivity, so we come back to the beginning: sensitivity doesn't matter. If we can get equal output with less power, then that's great--I'm not going to argue against that--but again, sensitivity doesn't predict or provide this at high power.


I think we said the same thing. I was pointing out that power isn't always free and that for most applications (which aren't my insane high power applications) that sensitivity will indeed matter. It's just a moot point when you've got tons of power on tap.


----------



## 14642

Thank God that's resolved. I think for cars, this really is a kinda moot point. Some of our guys in the Pro building might disagree, though. Finding ways to keep super-light voice coils attached to big super-light cones cool is a big deal when you're trying to fill big venues with lots of sound.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy, would you use the MS-8 with this center channel. Mounted slightly off axis inside the center display hole on the dash in the following car (in a compatible custom enclosure).










If so, would it be ok to run it with the passive crossover it comes with or go fully active running the 2 3" woofers in parallel up to 500Hz or so and then 4" mid and coax tweeter off their own amp channel crossed around 3KHz (or whatever works best).

The total system would be the above 3 channel center plus L/R 2 way (woofers in the lower door and tweeters in the sails). Along with the rear sub for the remaining channel.


----------



## 14642

Sure. that would work. If it were my car, I'd move the display to the front of that hole and mount the center in the top firing into the windsheild. In either case, I think that's an unnecessary number of drivers. Go with the largest single midrange you can find and add a tweeter (half of a 5" component system would be great). If that's not an option, use a 4" or a pair of mids and a tweeter. If you have a bunch of extra amp channels and an external crossover, biamping is OK. If you don't, I suggest a passive for the center.

I find that the best use of MS-8's 8 channels in a car is:

Biamped front (4)
Center (1)
Sub (1)
Sides and/or Rears (2) 

If you do sides and rears, run them in parallel.

If you use a 2-way speaker system in front, use separate channels for mids and tweeters. If you do a 3-way, use separate channels for the midbass and a pair of channels for mids and tweeters, together with their own crossovers (passive or active). If you do that, cross the midbass as high as you can stand--1k works well so long as they are 6" or smaller. Our ears aren't good at determining the location of sounds from 1k to 3k, and above 3k, level is the most important criterion. This arrangement provides accurate delay measurements and settings for the midbass and will fix the mids and tweeters using EQ. 

Since you'll be using a center speaker, the steering and that speaker will reduce the importance of time alignment for frequencies above the center-channel's cutoff and TA will fix it for lower frequencies using the midbass in the doors.


----------



## 14642

Oh, if you have the additional 3" speakers already, put them in the doors in front of the door handle and cross them over at 1k and 4k. Then put the tweeters in the sail panels and the woofers in the bottom. I've done this in my last two cars and it's great...great, great, great.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sure. that would work. If it were my car, I'd move the display to the front of that hole and mount the center in the top firing into the windsheild. In either case, I think that's an unnecessary number of drivers. Go with the largest single midrange you can find and add a tweeter (half of a 5" component system would be great). If that's not an option, use a 4" or a pair of mids and a tweeter. If you have a bunch of extra amp channels and an external crossover, biamping is OK. If you don't, I suggest a passive for the center.
> 
> I find that the best use of MS-8's 8 channels in a car is:
> 
> Biamped front (4)
> Center (1)
> Sub (1)
> Sides and/or Rears (2)
> 
> If you do sides and rears, run them in parallel.
> 
> If you use a 2-way speaker system in front, use separate channels for mids and tweeters. If you do a 3-way, use separate channels for the midbass and a pair of channels for mids and tweeters, together with their own crossovers (passive or active). If you do that, cross the midbass as high as you can stand--1k works well so long as they are 6" or smaller. Our ears aren't good at determining the location of sounds from 1k to 3k, and above 3k, level is the most important criterion. This arrangement provides accurate delay measurements and settings for the midbass and will fix the mids and tweeters using EQ.
> 
> Since you'll be using a center speaker, the steering and that speaker will reduce the importance of time alignment for frequencies above the center-channel's cutoff and TA will fix it for lower frequencies using the midbass in the doors.


I like the top firing and display relocation idea. It would allow me to keep the factory head unit since I would be able to keep it's display functionality. 

Thanks for the tips.


----------



## 14642

My Pleasure.


----------



## kkant

t3sn4f2 said:


> I like the top firing and display relocation idea.


IMO not an optimal arrangement. The screen will be a pita to use and see behind that gearshift. Plus it's a pita to move the screen anyway. I'd put the center behind the shifter. Seems like a tailor-made spot for it. Maybe you lose a little image height, but how bad is that really?


----------



## 14642

Wait! My suggestion is simply to move the existing screen toward the front of the loaction where it is currently, not down to the bottom of the console. That's a horrible place for a display and for a center channel.


----------



## t3sn4f2

kkant said:


> IMO not an optimal arrangement. *The screen will be a pita to use and see behind that gearshift.* Plus it's a pita to move the screen anyway. I'd put the center behind the shifter. Seems like a tailor-made spot for it. Maybe you lose a little image height, but how bad is that really?


I think you misunderstood what Andy meant. He's saying to leave the display up where it is but move it out so that it is not as recessed. Then use the new area behind the display for the windshield firing center speaker's enclosure or simply the speaker.


----------



## kkant

My bad, misunderstood you. In that case, that's a good idea.

The console location behind the shifter--what makes it bad, tone or image?


----------



## 14642

Too low.


----------



## basher8621

Andy,

Do you have any new info on the release of the MS-8?


----------



## n_olympios

I wonder how many times this has been asked in this thread. :laugh:

This was posted a few pages and a couple of weeks ago:



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Guys,
> No ETA yet. I'll provide one just as soon as I have a reliable date.


----------



## basher8621

Lol. I remember seeing that answer a while ago. I haven't been on in a long time and I read the last few pages of this thread to see if there was anything but I didn't see anything.


----------



## Bizarroterl

Andy,
Any chance we could have a group buy on the MS8 as it's released? I'd like to get one as soon as it's released and it sounds like others would too.


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sure. that would work. If it were my car, I'd move the display to the front of that hole and mount the center in the top firing into the windsheild. In either case, I think that's an unnecessary number of drivers. Go with the largest single midrange you can find and add a tweeter (half of a 5" component system would be great). If that's not an option, use a 4" or a pair of mids and a tweeter. If you have a bunch of extra amp channels and an external crossover, biamping is OK. If you don't, I suggest a passive for the center.
> 
> I find that the best use of MS-8's 8 channels in a car is:
> 
> Biamped front (4)
> Center (1)
> Sub (1)
> Sides and/or Rears (2)
> 
> If you do sides and rears, run them in parallel.
> 
> If you use a 2-way speaker system in front, use separate channels for mids and tweeters. If you do a 3-way, use separate channels for the midbass and a pair of channels for mids and tweeters, together with their own crossovers (passive or active). If you do that, cross the midbass as high as you can stand--1k works well so long as they are 6" or smaller. Our ears aren't good at determining the location of sounds from 1k to 3k, and above 3k, level is the most important criterion. This arrangement provides accurate delay measurements and settings for the midbass and will fix the mids and tweeters using EQ.
> 
> Since you'll be using a center speaker, the steering and that speaker will reduce the importance of time alignment for frequencies above the center-channel's cutoff and TA will fix it for lower frequencies using the midbass in the doors.



so, letting aside the front and sub channels, is the above the best configuration even in a Logic7 environment ?

.. no way to get a good result for both the driver and, even to a lesser extent, for rear passengers if leaving 
- 2 channels only on front doors (instead of 4) 
- 2 channels on rear doors
and 2 for rear satellites ? 

thanks


----------



## CobraVin

Andy, can you tell me the approximate dimensions of the main unit and display, i bought a new truck and already sold my DRZ so im going to use my stock head unit and im trying to figure out where to put this unit and any other equipment ill run, thanks


----------



## ItalynStylion

Andy and I exchanged a few PM's and he said that it would be about 8" x 11" x 2".

Unfortunately, no word on pricing or release date though. That could be a deal breaker for me. I'll need a processor sometime in the next month or so and an "unknown" date just isn't possible for me to plan around. I fear that many other people are in the same boat as me and will likely go with other products for lack of a release date.


----------



## basher8621

Yeah. I needed one too. I was waiting in the MS-8 but it took too long. I got a BitOne instead.


----------



## CobraVin

ItalynStylion said:


> Andy and I exchanged a few PM's and he said that it would be about 8" x 11" x 2".
> 
> .


thanks for the info, isnt there a display or control unit as well?


----------



## basher8621

There is a display unit. I couldn't tell you the size of it.


----------



## kkant

If you're gonna skip out on the MS8, at least do something interesting like a CarPC-based EQ. Or a 12V conversion of a pro-sound EQ. The bit-one seems to do very little.


----------



## ItalynStylion

kkant said:


> The bit-one seems to do very little.


ROFL>>>really?


----------



## basher8621

kkant said:


> If you're gonna skip out on the MS8, at least do something interesting like a CarPC-based EQ. Or a 12V conversion of a pro-sound EQ. The bit-one seems to do very little.


can you explain to me why you think the bitone does very little. right now it does a whole lot more than the MS-8


----------



## kkant

ItalynStylion said:


> ROFL>>>really?


ROFL yes. 




basher8621 said:


> can you explain to me why you think the bitone does very little. right now it does a whole lot more than the MS-8


Yeah but at the moment that's not saying much is it. AFAICT the BitOne has a few 1/3 octave EQ's, some crossovers, some manual time alignment, and maybe a De-EQer. Anything else?


----------



## Bizarroterl

My impression was that the MS-8 is essentially a BitOne with a bunch of smarts to do a 95% setup in a few minutes where the BitOne would take hours/days to do the same. Is that not the case?


----------



## TREETOP

kkant said:


> ROFL yes.
> 
> 
> Yeah but at the moment that's not saying much is it. AFAICT the BitOne has a few 1/3 octave EQ's, some crossovers, some manual time alignment, and maybe a De-EQer. Anything else?


Anything else? Well yeah. It exists, for one thing.


----------



## kkant

Bizarroterl said:


> My impression was that the MS-8 is essentially a BitOne with a bunch of smarts to do a 95% setup in a few minutes where the BitOne would take hours/days to do the same. Is that not the case?


Nope. Not with a few 31-band EQ's. BitOne isn't even remotely close. It's just a third octave EQ with an xover--we've seen thousands of them before, for millions of years. There's much more to signal processing than that.


----------



## kkant

TREETOP said:


> Anything else? Well yeah. It exists, for one thing.


Well yeah, we've been over that. But the BitOne is no stand-in for something like an MS8, in the same sense that you can't use your bathtub in lieu of the Suez Canal. If you were thinking about the MS8 but don't want to wait, at least get something in the same category. For $800 you can get a Rane RPM26z. Or even better, for a little more (or less) you can get a CarPC with a bunch of DSP software.


----------



## Lash

People looking for Group Buys and the dimensions of the unit.
We've been waiting on this thing for about 3 years.
Look, I'd love to see it become reality too, but let's face it, the MS-8 is Vaporhardware.


----------



## donkeypunch22

kkant said:


> Nope. Not with a few 31-band EQ's. BitOne isn't even remotely close. It's just a third octave EQ with an xover--we've seen thousands of them before, for millions of years. There's much more to signal processing than that.


I'm with kkant. I never understood the hype on the BitOne for this very reason. I don't mean to rain on anyone's party, but the EQ processor in the BitOne, at the end of the day, is just a 1/3 Octave Graphic EQ. I guess I'm just a parametric EQ or forget it kinda guy. Granted, at least the BitOne is available, but... EQ with no control over EQ points or Q of your filter... there are tons of these type of units out there.


----------



## tspence73

I hope the screen is the average size of a navigation console screen so it can get glassed in above the headunit.


----------



## Technic

So far I've own the 3SIXTY.2, the DQXS and the bit one, and each one of these processors are extremely good in what they do: provide great sound once adjusted to taste. Sometime after the day the MS-8 shows up perhaps I will get one just to add to my experience.

However, all my procesors exist today and the MS-8 does not. So any impression only by reading what it may or may not do simply do **** for me. I don't live in Fantasy Island. 

What I don't understand is the bickering about what real processors are capable and are doing right now and how the MS-8 will be better _some day_ in the _future_. Outside JBL and that prototype system in the 3-Series _years ago_, nobody knows for real if it will be in fact better and in what particular capacity over anything else. 

This is absurd. Let the sucker show up and let's see what really it can do in real life and in regular cars.


----------



## kkant

Technic said:


> What I don't understand is the bickering about what real processors are capable and are doing right now and how the MS-8 will be better _some day_ in the _future_.


You missed the point.



Technic said:


> Let the sucker show up and let's see what really it can do in real life and in regular cars.


We already have. That's why we're excited about it. If it hadn't won first at SBN (all those years ago), there would be no particular reason to think it was any good or have a thousand page thread about it.


----------



## Technic

I think that I can define excitement on my own when I see it, and this is no excitement...


----------



## kkant

Technic said:


> I think that I can define excitement on my own when I see it, and this is no excitement...


OK. Then what is? For audio, of course.


----------



## michaelsil1

kkant said:


> OK. Then what is? For audio, of course.


A Magic Genie in a bottle that will make my Car sound like Heaven. If you want to think the MS-8 is going to do that for you keep dreaming; until it's released it's just a fantasy.


----------



## donkeypunch22

Technic said:


> So far I've own the 3SIXTY.2, the DQXS and the bit one, and each one of these processors are extremely good in what they do: provide great sound once adjusted to taste. Sometime after the day the MS-8 shows up perhaps I will get one just to add to my experience.
> 
> However, all my procesors exist today and the MS-8 does not. So any impression only by reading what it may or may not do simply do **** for me. I don't live in Fantasy Island.
> 
> What I don't understand is the bickering about what real processors are capable and are doing right now and how the MS-8 will be better _some day_ in the _future_. Outside JBL and that prototype system in the 3-Series _years ago_, nobody knows for real if it will be in fact better and in what particular capacity over anything else.
> 
> This is absurd. Let the sucker show up and let's see what really it can do in real life and in regular cars.


My only point was, as far as the EQ is concerned, the BitOne = SIXTY.2 = DQXS. All three use 31 band graphic, not very exciting at all. It's technology that has been around since I dirt. 

An automated parametric EQ is something to get excited over. And IMHO, worth waiting for. I heard about the BitOne as soon as the rumors of its release hit this forum, and I have not nor ever will be interested.


----------



## kkant

michaelsil1 said:


> A Magic Genie in a bottle that will make my Car sound like Heaven. If you want to think the MS-8 is going to do that for you keep dreaming.


And the BitOne does? Nobody said the MS8 will be a magic bullet. You are also missing the point.


----------



## quality_sound

kkant said:


> Nope. Not with a few 31-band EQ's. BitOne isn't even remotely close. It's just a third octave EQ with an xover--we've seen thousands of them before, for millions of years. There's much more to signal processing than that.





donkeypunch22 said:


> I'm with kkant. I never understood the hype on the BitOne for this very reason. I don't mean to rain on anyone's party, but the EQ processor in the BitOne, at the end of the day, is just a 1/3 Octave Graphic EQ. I guess I'm just a parametric EQ or forget it kinda guy. Granted, at least the BitOne is available, but... EQ with no control over EQ points or Q of your filter... there are tons of these type of units out there.



Like?? What other units can accept any type of input you'd want to throw at it? Have 31-band EQs for EACH output, independant crossover for each output, time alignment for each output, and polarity adjustment for each output, and is actually made to be installed in a car?? 

The closest is the 701 and it won't take all the inputs the B1 will and has noise issues unless you use an Alpine unit with an optical output. The DSP-6SL (what'd probably use if I didn't have my B1) doesn't take all the inputs the B1 does and is down two channels. Some will argue PEQ/GEQ but that's preference. 

Until the MS-8 actually sees something other than the inside of one car (minus it's case so no one knows what it is incase it sounds like ass) or an engineer's desk you can argue until you're blue in the face but it's the same as arguing that a winged horse is a better mode of transport than an camel.


----------



## quality_sound

donkeypunch22 said:


> My only point was, as far as the EQ is concerned, the BitOne = SIXTY.2 = DQXS. All three use 31 band graphic, not very exciting at all. It's technology that has been around since I dirt.


Actually the B1 has EIGHT 31 band EQs. Yes the 3Sixty.2 also has EQ for each output but it's also down 2 channels and the DQXS is as well and the 6 channels it does have aren't nearly as configurable as the other two you listed. 

Why not compare the B1 to a XM-3 in an effort to make your point? I bet you're still waiting for the ID One as well.


----------



## Et Cetera

Maybe this is what all of us are waiting for: 

Motus Lab Home Page


----------



## kkant

quality_sound said:


> Like?? What other units can accept any type of input you'd want to throw at it? Have 31-band EQs for EACH output, independant crossover for each output, time alignment for each output, and polarity adjustment for each output, and is actually made to be installed in a car??


None of which will help the SQ that much. Yawn. Anyway, the answer to your question is simple: a CarPC.



quality_sound said:


> Some will argue PEQ/GEQ but that's preference.


Only if you've never used a proper PEQ.



quality_sound said:


> Until the MS-8 actually sees something other than the inside of one car (minus it's case so no one knows what it is incase it sounds like ass) or an engineer's desk you can argue until you're blue in the face but it's the same as arguing that a winged horse is a better mode of transport than an camel.


And you're also missing the point.


----------



## dsh2009

Et Cetera said:


> Maybe this is what all of us are waiting for:
> 
> Motus Lab Home Page


wow that's pretty slick actually, though it doesn't apply to cars not already running the MOST interface. it also lacks any auto-correction. my old Alto Mobile UCS Pro does all this same stuff actually, plus noise gate and limiter.

-d


----------



## quality_sound

kkant said:


> None of which will help the SQ that much. Yawn. Anyway, the answer to your question is simple: a CarPC.


Are you mental??? ALL of that can help SQ. Nothing helps if you don't know how to use it. And a car PC is NOT the end all be all of SQ or they be much more widely used. 



> Only if you've never used a proper PEQ.


It's all about what your comfortable using. I've used both and both are great but saying one is better that th eother is silly unless you're using a 31-band PEQ and nothing I've seen for the car has one.



> And you're also missing the point.


The point is you extolling the virtues of a piece that's still on the drawing board is asinine. Until it exists it isn't better than anything.


----------



## ItalynStylion

kkant, I think it is YOU who are missing the point. I think that the MS8 will blow away the Bit1.1 if it ever comes out; we're on the same page there. However, the MS8 is much like the carrot hanging in front of the donkey. You're exactly right, the MS8 exists and has for a while Gary's BMW. So what the crap has JBL been doing since then? Freakin make it already. 

The light at the end of the tunnel is only worth waiting for if you KNOW how long the tunnel is. I'd rather run a Bit1.1 than nothing at all.


----------



## kkant

quality_sound said:


> Are you mental??? ALL of that can help SQ. Nothing helps if you don't know how to use it.


It doesn't really help that much. After tuning with more sophisticated tools you'll see that.



quality_sound said:


> And a car PC is NOT the end all be all of SQ or they be much more widely used.


It can do everything the BitOne can, and more. Widely used? Are you saying the general audio-buying public is well-educated in audio engineering? This is the industry that sells green CD highlighters. 



quality_sound said:


> It's all about what your comfortable using. I've used both and both are great but saying one is better that th eother is silly unless you're using a 31-band PEQ and nothing I've seen for the car has one.


I already showed you one that has both. And it's available now.



quality_sound said:


> The point is you extolling the virtues of a piece that's still on the drawing board is asinine. Until it exists it isn't better than anything.


Actually, I'm not, and you're still missing my point. Re-read.


----------



## Silver Supra

I was planning on going with the JBL but honestly got tired of waiting. I am thrilled with my B1.1.


----------



## kkant

ItalynStylion said:


> kkant, I think it is YOU who are missing the point. I think that the MS8 will blow away the Bit1.1 if it ever comes out; we're on the same page there. However, the MS8 is much like the carrot hanging in front of the donkey. You're exactly right, the MS8 exists and has for a while Gary's BMW. So what the crap has JBL been doing since then? Freakin make it already.
> 
> The light at the end of the tunnel is only worth waiting for if you KNOW how long the tunnel is. I'd rather run a Bit1.1 than nothing at all.


OK, let me just repeat myself. I'm not saying you should wait for the MS8 (that's another discussion). I'm saying first of all the BitOne is nothing particularly special, and second you can do a lot better with other devices that you can buy today.


----------



## Et Cetera

dsh2009 said:


> wow that's pretty slick actually, though it doesn't apply to cars not already running the MOST interface. it also lacks any auto-correction. my old Alto Mobile UCS Pro does all this same stuff actually, plus noise gate and limiter.
> 
> -d


Since it gets digital information over the optic fibre MOST network, and this is BEFORE the stock amp, signal correction isn't really needed.


----------



## michaelsil1

kkant said:


> And the BitOne does? Nobody said the MS8 will be a magic bullet. You are also missing the point.


There are people who think it is a magic bullet. The Bit One is a unit that is available and that says a lot more than a maybe.
I don't think I am missing the point; the unit isn't out and it's three years past it's scheduled release date!


----------



## capnxtreme

"You're missing the point."
"No, you're missing the point!"
"No, YOU'RE missing the point!"
"No, YOU ARE!"

:mean:

Jesus Christ guys.


----------



## donkeypunch22

quality_sound said:


> Actually the B1 has EIGHT 31 band EQs. Yes the 3Sixty.2 also has EQ for each output but it's also down 2 channels and the DQXS is as well and the 6 channels it does have aren't nearly as configurable as the other two you listed.
> 
> Why not compare the B1 to a XM-3 in an effort to make your point? I bet you're still waiting for the ID One as well.


Actually, I am not waiting for anything. I'm very interested in the MS-8, but I am not waiting for it.

I am quite happy running Zapco DC amps to a two way + sub, active. That gives me 10 band parametric per channel for a total of 30 bands parametric per side. All bands available for use, where ever I need them, with a Q ranging from 1 to 6 in 0.5 steps.

The thing that gets me is 31 graphic per channel, in an active setup, is wasting EQ processing power. What use are the lower two thirds of your 31 graphic if your tweeter is crossed at 3k? That crossover just made your 31 graphic about a 10 graphic. Further more, what use are these 10 or so graphic bands if they fall outside of your problem spots? Perhaps you get lucky and one of the bands coincides with a problem area you have, but oh ****, the Q is too broad and the correction spills into areas you don't want it to.

So, the BitOne is a cool machine, but no thanks. 

That's my point.


----------



## tspence73

Maybe I'm missing the point but I just want to buy it because it has cool lights and buttons.


----------



## Bizarroterl

tspence73 said:


> Maybe I'm missing the point but I just want to buy it because it has cool lights and buttons.



Hooray! Finally a voice of reason.


----------



## quality_sound

kkant said:


> It doesn't really help that much. After tuning with more sophisticated tools you'll see that.


Such as? Having Greg LeMond's bike doesn't mean I'll be winning the Tour de France anytime soon. 



> It can do everything the BitOne can, and more. Widely used? Are you saying the general audio-buying public is well-educated in audio engineering? This is the industry that sells green CD highlighters.


No, I'm saying that if the people that spend more than you and I make in a year to wring every last little bit of performance out of their equipment to win a 3 foot tall piece of plastic haven't adopted it yet it can't be as big an upgrade as you've built up in your mind that it is. 



> I already showed you one that has both. And it's available now.


There's a CAR piece that has a 31-band PEQ?


----------



## quality_sound

donkeypunch22 said:


> Actually, I am not waiting for anything. I'm very interested in the MS-8, but I am not waiting for it.
> 
> I am quite happy running Zapco DC amps to a two way + sub, active. That gives me 10 band parametric per channel for a total of 30 bands parametric per side. All bands available for use, where ever I need them, with a Q ranging from 1 to 6 in 0.5 steps.
> 
> The thing that gets me is 31 graphic per channel, in an active setup, is wasting EQ processing power. What use are the lower two thirds of your 31 graphic if your tweeter is crossed at 3k? That crossover just made your 31 graphic about a 10 graphic. Further more, what use are these 10 or so graphic bands if they fall outside of your problem spots? Perhaps you get lucky and one of the bands coincides with a problem area you have, but oh ****, the Q is too broad and the correction spills into areas you don't want it to.
> 
> So, the BitOne is a cool machine, but no thanks.
> 
> That's my point.


You do know that the B1 has a 31-band graphic EQ _per output_, correct? You're not wasting ANY processing power. Each of my tweeters has 31 bands of EQ available. Each of my mids has 31 bands of EQ available. Each of my midbasses has 31 bands of EQ available. My sub (each if I ran stereo subs) has 31 bands of EQ available. 

As to your second point, the PEQ in your DC Refs sin't infinitely adjustable either. It too has fixed center frequencies to choose from so you still have the problem as with the GEQ. Add if you need ten parametric bands to fix any one driver you have more problems to worry about that which processor you should be using. 

At the end of the day GEQ or PEQ can get the job done just as well as the other.


----------



## donkeypunch22

quality_sound said:


> You do know that the B1 has a 31-band graphic EQ _per output_, correct? You're not wasting ANY processing power. Each of my tweeters has 31 bands of EQ available. Each of my mids has 31 bands of EQ available. Each of my midbasses has 31 bands of EQ available. My sub (each if I ran stereo subs) has 31 bands of EQ available.
> 
> As to your second point, the PEQ in your DC Refs sin't infinitely adjustable either. It too has fixed center frequencies to choose from so you still have the problem as with the GEQ. Add if you need ten parametric bands to fix any one driver you have more problems to worry about that which processor you should be using.
> 
> At the end of the day GEQ or PEQ can get the job done just as well as the other.


Is your tweeter playing full range on said channel? If not, then where is it crossed. If it is, then how is it that your tweeter can use all 31 bands? To be specific, the last time I checked, no cross protected tweeter ever made use of the 63Hz slider on a graphic eq (or the 20Hz, 25Hz, 31.5Hz, 40Hz, 50Hz, 80Hz, 100Hz, 125Hz, 160Hz, 200Hz, 250Hz, 315Hz, 400Hz, 500Hz, 630Hz, 800Hz). To me, that is a waste of processing power.

And what are you talking about the DC has fixed center frequencies. You can enter any digit from 20-20k for all ten filters. There is nothing fixed about that. I'm pretty sure you have used the DC processor before, so is there some confusion there?


----------



## kkant

quality_sound said:


> You do know that the B1 has a 31-band graphic EQ _per output_, correct? You're not wasting ANY processing power. Each of my tweeters has 31 bands of EQ available.


Right, so as donkeypunch pointed out, most of those bands are totally unused on the tweeter. And the ones that are left are so obtuse that they won't do much good. Having multiple fixed "graphical" bands across multiple drivers of the same channel is completely worthless. Now if it was 30 parametric bands per driver, that would be something worthwhile. 



quality_sound said:


> Add if you need ten parametric bands to fix any one driver you have more problems to worry about that which processor you should be using.


First of all, the EQ is not there primarily to fix the drivers. It's there to fix the interior. Second, even with 10 parametric bands you won't fix all the problems of a car interior.



quality_sound said:


> At the end of the day GEQ or PEQ can get the job done just as well as the other.


Not at all true.

Like I said, you don't have to wait for the MS-8. But if you are looking for an alternative, don't settle for the BitOne.

There's only one possible reason I would get the BitOne. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that it "would accept input from virtually any source", or words to that effect. What exactly does that mean? Are we talking just S/PDIF stereo, or does it decode proprietary OEM digital protocols?


----------



## donkeypunch22

Kkant, I think Quality Sound understands where we are coming from now. 

Again, the BitOne is a great component. I'm happy that people like to use its simple graphic solution. I didn't mean to insult anyone that uses it. The BitOne is uncomplicated and effective, I'm sure. 

Oh, and I can't wait to see the MS-8 whenever, or if ever, it comes out. Cause automating "four biquad filters" that do the same work as a crap load of paramtric EQs + hours of tuning will be mass cool.


----------



## Oliver

It was all the talk . . . JBL's MS-8. What does it do?>>11-10-2006

JBL's MS-8. What does it do? - CARSOUND.COM Forum


----------



## Sassmastersq

We should have a production schedule in a couple of weeks.
__________________
Andy Wehmeyer
Product Marketing Manager
Harman Consumer Group
Mobile Systems Division 

11-10-2006, 11:33 AM 

Direct quote from andy... I think we've overshot that by just a wee bit.


----------



## quality_sound

donkeypunch22 said:


> Is your tweeter playing full range on said channel? If not, then where is it crossed. If it is, then how is it that your tweeter can use all 31 bands? To be specific, the last time I checked, no cross protected tweeter ever made use of the 63Hz slider on a graphic eq (or the 20Hz, 25Hz, 31.5Hz, 40Hz, 50Hz, 80Hz, 100Hz, 125Hz, 160Hz, 200Hz, 250Hz, 315Hz, 400Hz, 500Hz, 630Hz, 800Hz). To me, that is a waste of processing power.


You are correct that I won't be using a LOT of bands for my tweeter. Your contention was that the DC EQ is better because you can put the 5 bands wherever you want. My contention was that if you need 5 PEQ bands on your tweeter your'e doing something wrong. Hell, if you need 5 PEQ bands on ANY driver you're doing something wrong. If crossed over at 5KHZ the B1 has 7 GEQ bands available. Is one better than the other? I say they're just different. 



> And what are you talking about the DC has fixed center frequencies. You can enter any digit from 20-20k for all ten filters. There is nothing fixed about that. I'm pretty sure you have used the DC processor before, so is there some confusion there?


Interesting. Mine would always round up or down to the nearest 5Hz. Picking an exact freq. would be very benficial. 



kkant said:


> Right, so as donkeypunch pointed out, most of those bands are totally unused on the tweeter. And the ones that are left are so obtuse that they won't do much good. Having multiple fixed "graphical" bands across multiple drivers of the same channel is completely worthless. Now if it was 30 parametric bands per driver, that would be something worthwhile.


Isn't 30 PEQ bands just as obtuse?



> First of all, the EQ is not there primarily to fix the drivers. It's there to fix the interior. Second, even with 10 parametric bands you won't fix all the problems of a car interior.


You're actually fixing the result of the interaction otherwise you'd be able to set the EQ for the car and swap drivers without ever having to readjust and we all know that's not the case. 



> Like I said, you don't have to wait for the MS-8. But if you are looking for an alternative, don't settle for the BitOne.


Who's settling? I still haven't seen ANY other CAR piece that does everything a B1 does. The 701 doesn't take all the inputs the B1 does. The DSP6 doesn't either AND it only has 6 outputs. Everything has it's strengths but the B1 is more flexible, hands down.



> There's only one possible reason I would get the BitOne. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that it "would accept input from virtually any source", or words to that effect. What exactly does that mean? Are we talking just S/PDIF stereo, or does it decode proprietary OEM digital protocols?


That was me that said that and no, it won't take proprietary signals, that's why they're proprietary, but it'll take optical, coax, speaker level (without soldering on rca ends or moving jumpers), and line level. Nothing else I can think of will take all of those inputs. moBridge is working on a device that'll decode the MOST bus and send either optical or analog into a B1. 



donkeypunch22 said:


> Kkant, I think Quality Sound understands where we are coming from now.


I do know where you're coming from but I've heard 3 or 4 times now that you can get something better than a B1 right now but no one's presented anything that is. Daisy-chained DSP-6s is close but you're still input limited. I don't consider a carputer a valid alternative because there isn't one that's car specific that does anything near what a B1 does and custom built has it's own set of problems like stability, space required, turn-on and -off, etc. 

I am not saying the B1 is the be all end all of car audio processing but when compared against what's available it's a damned fine piece that holds it's own against anything else made for the car environment.


----------



## BigRed

I will be getting the Ms8 when it comes out because the bottom line is I live for technology. The bit1 is very different to me in terms of what the Ms8 is going to accomplish. I like a center channel and rears in my vehicle and had it set up like that in my truck under PLII with the 701. On certain cd's and dvd's it was incredible sounding. The problem is that because the 701 has to follow the PLII format, in most stereo recordings, it muted the hell out of left and right and the compromise was having to turn down the center so much that I could'nt get any volume out of it. Those that heard it in this format agreed. I'm not hear to argue with those that believe "all you need is a good front stage"....knock yourself out. I understand. But to me personally, the power in the Ms8 among other things is going to be center steering in a vehicle. If you've never heard a setup like this, it would be unfair to comment anything in terms that it won't work, or does'nt sound good.


----------



## kkant

quality_sound said:


> My contention was that if you need 5 PEQ bands on your tweeter your'e doing something wrong. Hell, if you need 5 PEQ bands on ANY driver you're doing something wrong.


Again, this is not correct. Don't think of it as EQ'ing the driver, think of it as EQ'ing the interior. You generally don't need to do much with the tweeters. Where it really counts is in the midrange and midbass. That's the point really. With a GEQ you have 7 mostly useless bands 5k and up that aren't centered on your problem spots anyway, then you have 7 more non-adjustable bands in the midrange where you really need 15 finely adjustable ones. That doesn't mean you're doing something wrong. All car interiors are this way, and there's simply nothing you can do to avoid it (trust me, I've tried).



quality_sound said:


> If crossed over at 5KHZ the B1 has 7 GEQ bands available. Is one better than the other? I say they're just different.


PEQ is unquestionably better. At the very least it is a superset of GEQ--you could set up the parametric bands to look just like your GEQ if you wanted. But you would never want to do that. The ability to adjust center point and width is critical for SQ. The problems in car interiors do not line up along 1/3 octave boundaries and 1/3 octave widths. GEQ's are fine for adjusting the overall tone of the sound, but almost useless for room correction. And room correction is what it's all about when it comes to SQ in a car.



quality_sound said:


> Isn't 30 PEQ bands just as obtuse?


Not at all. I think this is where our disagreement is centered. See above.



quality_sound said:


> You're actually fixing the result of the interaction otherwise you'd be able to set the EQ for the car and swap drivers without ever having to readjust and we all know that's not the case.


Obviously different drivers will change the response...I said "primarily" not "only". But the largest SQ problems in a car will remain pretty consistent even when you change drivers (assuming you aren't operating the new drivers out of their useful band). The point here is that saying we are "doing something wrong" if we need 10 bands to correct for a driver is the wrong way of looking at it. The right perspective is, you need 10 bands to correct for the interior, in the range that the driver happens to be playing in.



quality_sound said:


> Who's settling? I still haven't seen ANY other CAR piece that does everything a B1 does. The 701 doesn't take all the inputs the B1 does. The DSP6 doesn't either AND it only has 6 outputs. Everything has it's strengths but the B1 is more flexible, hands down.


Flexibility adds convenience, but it doesn't matter for SQ. If I get better SQ by hooking together an extra box or two, I'll do it. But in general you are right--car audio branded processors are total **** for SQ, and always have been. There are some exceptions though. Hopefully the MS8, when it gets released. There's the CarPC, of course. The Sony XDP4k was pretty good, though severely limited. And I'd take donkeypunch's Zapco parametrics anyday over the BitOne, for SQ (assuming the controls are finely tunable).



quality_sound said:


> moBridge is working on a device that'll decode the MOST bus


Very cool. Got a thread link by any chance?



quality_sound said:


> I don't consider a carputer a valid alternative because there isn't one that's car specific that does anything near what a B1 does and custom built has it's own set of problems like stability, space required, turn-on and -off, etc.


There are some issues you have to deal with, but they can be dealt with. Yes it's more work, but it's worth it if you want SQ. It's all about room correction, and GEQ's help very little in that department. And why stick with car stuff? What's wrong with pro-studio gear? This is diymobileaudio, after all.


----------



## donkeypunch22

Oh, Sassmaster is here!


----------



## 14642

Sassmastersq said:


> We should have a production schedule in a couple of weeks.
> __________________
> Andy Wehmeyer
> Product Marketing Manager
> Harman Consumer Group
> Mobile Systems Division
> 
> 11-10-2006, 11:33 AM
> 
> Direct quote from andy... I think we've overshot that by just a wee bit.


 
And the sky is blue, Earth is round (so is my gut), Bigfoot is furry...any other obvious statements you wish to make?

BTW, there's no sense in comparing the BitOne and the MS-8. BitOne is available and MS-8 isn't yet. BitOne is manual and MS-8 will be automatic. This isn't about processing power--to the point made by whomever keeps suggesting a car PC--it's about the algorithm and/or the tools.


----------



## kkant

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> BTW, there's no sense in comparing the BitOne and the MS-8. BitOne is available and MS-8 isn't yet. BitOne is manual and MS-8 will be automatic. This isn't about processing power--to the point made by whomever keeps suggesting a car PC--it's about the algorithm and/or the tools.


Yeah, I know. And the BitOne has neither. A CarPC doesn't have the algorithm, but at least it has (some of) the tools. We're not comparing the BitOne to the MS8. Indeed that was my point from the start--the BitOne is no replacement for an MS8. There currently isn't anything that is a replacement for an MS8, unless you count the Alpine Imprint stuff (which sucks). But one can do better than a BitOne.


----------



## ibanzil

^^^^So, what exactly do you use?^^^^


----------



## kkant

My most recent processor was the Rane RPM. Used it for about 4-5 years through several systems. I took my last system out of my old truck when I got a new car a couple months ago. Now I'm waiting for the MS-8 before I install the next system.


----------



## ibanzil

^^^good deal.


----------



## quality_sound

kkant said:


> Yeah, I know. And the BitOne has neither. A CarPC doesn't have the algorithm, but at least it has (some of) the tools. We're not comparing the BitOne to the MS8. Indeed that was my point from the start--the BitOne is no replacement for an MS8. There currently isn't anything that is a replacement for an MS8, unless you count the Alpine Imprint stuff (which sucks). But one can do better than a BitOne.


NO ONE has said the B1 was an MS-8 replacement. Even if the MS-8 WAS available they're two totally different things. You made the commment that people were "settling" for the B1, which is silly at best. You keep saying you can do better than a B1 but haven't provided a single example that does. 

You use a Rane which does some things a B1 doesn't, but is has 2 less channels, needs to thave the power supply swapped out, and is HUGE.


----------



## kkant

quality_sound said:


> You made the commment that people were "settling" for the B1, which is silly at best. You keep saying you can do better than a B1 but haven't provided a single example that does.


Reread the thread. 



quality_sound said:


> You use a Rane which does some things a B1 doesn't, but is has 2 less channels, needs to thave the power supply swapped out, and is HUGE.


True. None of which matters for SQ. Except for the extra two channels, which can easily be substituted with a 2-way active xover, which is not exactly hard to find. After all the work we put into our systems, why settle for a processor that won't sound as good as a factory Mark Levinson system in a Lexus? Or if you don't want the hassle of the Rane, get the Zapcos. Or wait for the MS-8.

And, BTW, people are talking about this BitOne as if it is a replacement. "I got tired of waiting for the MS8, so I got a BitOne." The subtext here seems to be "It's just another processor right? Cleansweep, 360, MS-8, BitOne, whatever". There has been at least one poster who thought that the MS-8 is basically like BitOne except with an autotune to make it easy. Clearly that is not correct.


----------



## quality_sound

kkant said:


> Reread the thread.


I don't need to. Processors designed for home and pro use are not replacements for pieces that are designed for car use. The average joe can't go buy a carputer or Rane and even get it to work. 



> True. None of which matters for SQ. Except for the extra two channels, which can easily be substituted with a 2-way active xover, which is not exactly hard to find.


But it's more boxes to install which increases noise and decreases SQ. 



> After all the work we put into our systems, why settle for a processor that won't sound as good as a factory Mark Levinson system in a Lexus?


And you're basing that one what exactly? I've hear B1 systems that SPANK the ML system. 



> Or if you don't want the hassle of the Rane, get the Zapcos.


Again, more boxes. 



> Or wait for the MS-8.


You mean more than the extra 3 years we've BEEN waiting? I want to put it in my car, not my wheelchair...



> And, BTW, people are talking about this BitOne as if it is a replacement. "I got tired of waiting for the MS8, so I got a BitOne." The subtext here seems to be "It's just another processor right? Cleansweep, 360, MS-8, BitOne, whatever". There has been at least one poster who thought that the MS-8 is basically like BitOne except with an autotune to make it easy. Clearly that is not correct.


I agree, that person was unclear on the differences.


----------



## kkant

quality_sound said:


> I don't need to. Processors designed for home and pro use are not replacements for pieces that are designed for car use. The average joe can't go buy a carputer or Rane and even get it to work.


Average Joe is uneducated and buys whatever crap the salesman tells him to buy. Who cares what he can or can't do. With a little knowledge you can use something else and have at least some chance of getting good SQ.



quality_sound said:


> But it's more boxes to install which increases noise and decreases SQ.


No it doesn't, if you build it right.



quality_sound said:


> And you're basing that one what exactly? I've hear B1 systems that SPANK the ML system.


Louder, yes. Better SQ at low volume? I doubt it. The ear often mistakes a little extra loudness for better sound, even when it's not. Listen a little longer and with more music and you'll hear the crappiness. I've heard many systems processed with 31-band EQ's (though I have not heard the BitOne--but there's no reason to think it is better than any other GEQ). Almost all have severe SQ problems that I can bring out with my test music samples. These are problems that can't be corrected with a blunt non-adjustable tool like a GEQ.

To listen for good SQ, it is important to have a reference. What is your reference? I use a pair of good IEMs.



quality_sound said:


> You mean more than the extra 3 years we've BEEN waiting? I want to put it in my car, not my wheelchair...


Fair enough. But for me...I've tried just about everything else, and I know how much SQ I can get today. And I know how long it takes to tune a car manually to make it sound good. Given the evidence we've seen with the MS-8, I'm willing to wait.


----------



## BigRed

Well I met with Andy last week and received a tour of the facility, a demo of his ride, and a prototype ms-8 to try out. Thanks Andy. I'll let everybody know how it does in my truck.


----------



## michaelsil1

BigRed said:


> Well I met with Andy last week and received a tour of the facility, a demo of his ride, and a prototype ms-8 to try out. Thanks Andy. I'll let everybody know how it does in my truck.


I want to be first! 


Oh wait I'm broke!! :blush:


----------



## Bizarroterl

:lurk:


----------



## kkant

BigRed said:


> Well I met with Andy last week and received a tour of the facility, a demo of his ride, and a prototype ms-8 to try out. Thanks Andy. I'll let everybody know how it does in my truck.


Lucky bastard.


----------



## ibanzil

are you allowed to post any pics?


----------



## BigRed

let me stop before this gets out of hand. Andy did NOT give me a unit, but let me explain my visit with him: Drove down to JBL and had lunch at a local mexican restaurant with Andy. we drove back to the plant, and I got to demo Andy's car for about 20 minutes. The car looks completely stock, and except for the tweeters in the sail panels, all speakers are in factory locations. The imaging was dead center with beyond the car ambience. the tonality was spot on and on one blues track, the guitar was literally 3 feet beyond the windshield and 2 fee past the left pillar. So most of us know that the car is great because in every competiton he puts the spank of most in his class. How easy is it to set up? glad you asked. as we were walking into the facility to check out the "silent chamber" 2 guys were heading out with an ms-8 to do some final hardware / software testing. They asked if I wanted to set it up in the vehicle. I of course said yes. This was a truck with 6 1/2" speakers front and rear and a 10" sub. I sat in the PASSENGER seat and proceeded to go thru the start-up menu from the beginning. crossover settings, what type of speakers, level setting from the deck.. Guys, it was a breeze, and from start to finish it took less than 5 minutes. The end result.....center information and a sense of space unlike a traditional front stage only setup!!  thumbs up Andy


----------



## kkant

Good ****. Thanks for the report!


----------



## 60ndown

BigRed said:


> let me stop before this gets out of hand. Andy did NOT give me a unit, but let me explain my visit with him: Drove down to JBL and _*had lunch at a local mexican restaurant*_ with Andy. we drove back to the plant, and I got to demo Andy's car for about 20 minutes. The car looks completely stock, and except for the tweeters in the sail panels, all speakers are in factory locations. The imaging was dead center with beyond the car ambience. the tonality was spot on and on one blues track, the guitar was literally 3 feet beyond the windshield and 2 fee past the left pillar. So most of us know that the car is great because in every competiton he puts the spank of most in his class. How easy is it to set up? glad you asked. as we were walking into the facility to check out the "silent chamber" 2 guys were heading out with an ms-8 to do some final hardware / software testing. They asked if I wanted to set it up in the vehicle. I of course said yes. This was a truck with 6 1/2" speakers front and rear and a 10" sub. I sat in the PASSENGER seat and proceeded to go thru the start-up menu from the beginning. crossover settings, what type of speakers, level setting from the deck.. Guys, it was a breeze, and from start to finish it took less than 5 minutes. The end result.....center information and a sense of space unlike a traditional front stage only setup!!  thumbs up Andy


what did you eat?


----------



## Bizarroterl

BigRed said:


> let me stop before this gets out of hand. Andy did NOT give me a unit, but let me explain my visit with him: Drove down to JBL and had lunch at a local mexican restaurant with Andy. we drove back to the plant, and I got to demo Andy's car for about 20 minutes. The car looks completely stock, and except for the tweeters in the sail panels, all speakers are in factory locations. The imaging was dead center with beyond the car ambience. the tonality was spot on and on one blues track, the guitar was literally 3 feet beyond the windshield and 2 fee past the left pillar. So most of us know that the car is great because in every competiton he puts the spank of most in his class. How easy is it to set up? glad you asked. as we were walking into the facility to check out the "silent chamber" 2 guys were heading out with an ms-8 to do some final hardware / software testing. They asked if I wanted to set it up in the vehicle. I of course said yes. This was a truck with 6 1/2" speakers front and rear and a 10" sub. I sat in the PASSENGER seat and proceeded to go thru the start-up menu from the beginning. crossover settings, what type of speakers, level setting from the deck.. Guys, it was a breeze, and from start to finish it took less than 5 minutes. The end result.....center information and a sense of space unlike a traditional front stage only setup!!  thumbs up Andy


I find the phrase "final hardware / software testing" encouraging. This sounds like we're getting closer!


----------



## BigRed

guys, I totally got the impression that they are all over this getting released. I mean we were walking in and these 2 guys saw Andy and said " Hey andy, we're going to test the software changes, you want to check it out?" Me and Andy said "sure". when I was in the car, the one engineer said this was the final thing they wanted to complete. Now I can't speak for Jbl, but I am reporting what was said.  they made sure I understood that after the auto setup, you can adjust all amplitude, and you can eq it to your taste which was shown to me on the display unit that comes with the ms-8


----------



## donkeypunch22

stoked...


----------



## rawdawg

Just to clarify, Big Red, the car you helped set up had no center channel? If so, how did it fare compared to the car you listened to with a center channel?


----------



## BigRed

the center channel car was better.....imaging was tighter, overall ambience was larger.


----------



## ibanzil

BigRed...

How did the tuning go down? Do you really just draw a curve and let it work? What curve was being used?


----------



## 14642

The curve drawing comes after the Auto EQ. You can make changes to the sound AFTER the machine does its work. Setup goes like this:

1. Input Setup: Calibrate the input signal by inserting the setup disc and adjusting the volume until you get the level and balance "OK" indication. Then you press OK and it runs the auto Un-EQ. That whole procedure takes less than a minute.
2. Output Setup: You tell the machine via a menu what system you have. 

a. Whether you have a sub and whether it uses 1 or 2 of MS-8's outputs and then you choose a subsonic filter frequency and slope and then a low pass filter frequency and slope. 
b. Whether your front system is a 1-way, 2-way or 3-way. The high pass filter frequency is chosen when you choose the sub low pass filter. Then yo choose crossover filter frequencies and slopes for the midbass to midrange and midrange to tweeter (if you have a 3-way). If you only have a 2-way, then you choose the crossover frequency and slope between the mid and tweeter.
c. Whether you have a center channel and whether it's a 1-way or 2-way. Then you chosse the center high-pass filter frequency and slope and the crossover filter frequency and slope between the center mid and tweeter (if yo have a 2-way center).
d. Whether you have surround speakers and whether they are 1-way or 2-way. THen you choose the HPF and slope and the crossover between mid and tweeter (if you have a 2-way).
e. Whether you have side surround speakers. Then you choose the HPF.

MS-8 counts the number of channels you use and eliminates choices you can't make because you've rin out of channels. You MUST have at least a front stereo system. Then you can add speakers to make up whatever system you have.

f. Then you tell MS-8 which output channel is connected to the various speakers you identified in the previous steps. This whole procedure is pretty quick too, especially if you have any clue about what you're doing. You CANNOT input overlap or underlap between the sub and the midbass/midrange, midbass and midrange, and midrange and tweeters. Before you freak out and decide that the whole unit sucks because you can't input ridiculous crossovers, know that all of the crossover slopes and frequencies are adjusted when the Auto EQ runs. It works. Plus, the usual need for underlap of sub and midbass crossovers is handled another way--which works much better, anyway.

Once you've set up the outputs, an output diagnostic runs and you can output pink noise to each of the outputs (FR, FL, C, RS, LS, RR, LR and S) to be sure you've set things up correctly.

3. Acoustic calibration: You put the microphone on and press "Go". The unit makes 4 sets of sweeps in each seat (you must do one seat, but you can do all 4 if you wish) and prompts you to turn your head between the second and third and between the third and fourth to get a spatial average. The first set of sweeps sets the channel delays and the second through fourth are for frequency response.

4. Press "done" and enjoy.

Once those steps are complete, you can turn logic 7 on and off, adjust the center, balance, fader and sub levels, adjust bass midrange and treble and draw a new curve with the 31-band EQ. Since the channels have all been matched by the auto EQ, you only need to draw a new curve and it's applied to all the corrected channels.

THe subwoofer level control is a shelf that's applied to all the channels rather than an output level control for the sub amp. That's why no overlap or underlap is necessary in the crossover. This works great too.

Once setup is done, you can use MS-8's volume control or the control on the head-unit.


----------



## azngotskills

Wow thanks for the insight Andy  Looks like its getting closer and im sure many would like to know, any realistic time frame on when we will actually start seeing these????


----------



## michaelsil1

Andy,

Sounds Great! Thank you for the information; now all we need is a unit that can be purchased.


----------



## ibanzil

Wow. I think tears are starting to build up because of that good news.

I really think a home version would sell like crazy. If this works good enough in my car, I'll be buying one to use on my home setup. Is there a problem with doing so b/c of the gigantic space?


----------



## Sassmastersq

I don't know how well it would work for home, but I think there are already logic7 pieces for home use.

in all seriousness, if it ever gets released, I'd look into one, but I'd never wait for it, my 3 year old might hit puberty before it's released. maybe I'll be able to get a first run unit for his first car.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Donkey?......


----------



## Babs

And still the coolest thing.. like with all of these, bit-one, ms-8, pxe, etc. 
Swap cars, keep your processor and throw it into whatever other car you have.. It will work. With a decent aux input, if the OEM head unit puts out anything decent, that's bonus.


----------



## donkeypunch22

Oh, Sassmaster is here!!










And now he's claiming that he will buy the MS-8! Weak... stick to your guns, hater.


----------



## BodegaBay

ibanzil said:


> I really think a home version would sell like crazy.


No need. Logic 7 has been around years starting with Lexicon's DC-1 and DC-2 processors. Lexicon is part of the Harmon collective (H/K, Mark Levinson, Infinity, *JBL*, etc.) and thus Logic 7 algorithm is being used in some of the high end processors across various Harmon brands.

As noted by Andy in one of the first posts, the version of Logic 7 JBL is implementing for mobile audio is truly for the car environment. It's not the same stuff used to calculate for home theater setup simply because cars have different cabin structure and requires different processing.

For home theater, I've used this type of DSP (Room EQ/Correction) via Audyssey MultEQ and it's a game changer -- you literally can sit in multiple positions and still obtain excellent sound without being at that center sweetspot. This type of DSP has been around for last few years in home and hopefully someone will actually bring it to car audio.

Andy - I've looked in my CES 2010 mfg. listing and don't see JBL exhibiting. No representation for Jan's big show?


----------



## NoMids

Any news on if these will be out before the end of the year?


----------



## t3sn4f2

NoMids said:


> Any news on if these will be out before the end of the year?


No news.


----------



## PaulD

do you guys realize this thread is going on 2 years now ...... and still no MS-8, at least not for the general public.


----------



## BigRed

Id rather have it in 2 years working correctly, than having it not work correctly, and then ***** about it for 2 years


----------



## n_olympios

PaulD said:


> do you guys realize this thread is going on 2 years now ...... and still no MS-8, at least not for the general public.


First of all, this thread is filled with such comments so another one wasn't really necessary. 

Secondly, you're absolutely right, but the general public doesn't know about it anyway. In fact, very few are aware of the very existence of the product. This thread is followed by a very limited amount of car audio freaks around the world, hardly a representative sample of the worldwide car audio scene as a whole. Hence, JBL might have "lost" some potential customers by not making this available sooner, BUT in the end - when it does come out - it'll (hopefully) have none of the glitches we keep hearing on other products (I'm not naming any). 

It's as BigRed said above. The only risk JBL are taking with the long wait is the possibility of another company bringing out a much better/more modern product that would eliminate the need for the MS-8 altogether, along with its potential commercial success. :blush:


----------



## PaulD

well, I certainly haven't read thru all 37 pages to notice how many times people have brought this up - I just saw this thread again and went to pg 1 to see how long it's been going is all. I agree that it's better to have it right then all jacked up and full of glitches like you usually see.


----------



## Bizarroterl

I can understand JBL's commitment to this technology. What auto manufacturer wouldn't want it? I could see where it would be a "must" for any high end OEM system. As for aftermarket - if you had a choice between a HU that had it and one that didn't and there was a $150 difference which one would you pick?


----------



## Sassmastersq

donkeypunch22 said:


> Oh, Sassmaster is here!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And now he's claiming that he will buy the MS-8! Weak... stick to your guns, hater.


I said i'd look at it. Just because they monsterfucked the timeline doesn't mean it won't be a good product if it ever gets released


----------



## instalher

now i have another dilema with this unit.... i plan on buying the pioneer x99rs deck with all the bells and whilstles, but i want the jbl ms-8 now i will be getting the pioneer in mid feb. my problem is this........... iam building another sqi car and want to run either the pioneer deh 880 deck or the pioneer x-99rs deck..... if the jbl ms 8 will be out befor next may then i will go with the 880 but if it wont be released befor the end of next iasca season then i will buy the x99rs...................... come on andy lets get going on this,.


----------



## 14642

instalher said:


> now i have another dilema with this unit.... i plan on buying the pioneer x99rs deck with all the bells and whilstles, but i want the jbl ms-8 now i will be getting the pioneer in mid feb. my problem is this........... iam building another sqi car and want to run either the pioneer deh 880 deck or the pioneer x-99rs deck..... if the jbl ms 8 will be out befor next may then i will go with the 880 but if it wont be released befor the end of next iasca season then i will buy the x99rs...................... come on andy lets get going on this,.


So long as there are no additional unforseen FUs, you'll be good to go for next season.


----------



## ibanzil

Ohh snap!^^^


----------



## rcurley55

and things just got interesting


----------



## ryancrouch

Now I got to find me a car to build! Perhaps a Volvo S60R. A MS-8 would be a great college graduation gift for myself!


----------



## instalher

alright andy i am going to purchase the pioneer deh p880prs it has 3 sets of pre out front rear sub/non fading.. 5 volts at 100 ohms... my front will be 2tweets.....2- 3 inch......... and 2- 6 inch front with the subs in rear....... now would i use front pre outs only, or f and r, or f/r/& s into your processor??? i can shut off the preamp stage of the deck... do you advise this?? also do i have to set all xover points and the eq points will be self calibrated? ie... tweets 2.5k up at 24db/oct... mid 500hz to 2.5k bandpass at 24db/oct. midbass at 65hz to 500hz at 24db/oct... subs zero to 65 hz at 24db/oct..then let the ms-8 do the rest?


----------



## donkeypunch22

Sassmastersq said:


> I said i'd look at it. Just because they monsterfucked the timeline doesn't mean it won't be a good product if it ever gets released












"I said i'd look at it.":laugh::laugh::laugh: That's still weak... get a spine! You've hated so hard on Andy and his team's work, so why stop now? Oh, that's riiight. The unit is about to be launched, and you are a %^$$) that is wavering on his hate. Be a man... stick with your 16 band analog graphic EQ.


----------



## kkant

instalher said:


> alright andy i am going to purchase the pioneer deh p880prs it has 3 sets of pre out front rear sub/non fading.. 5 volts at 100 ohms... my front will be 2tweets.....2- 3 inch......... and 2- 6 inch front with the subs in rear....... now would i use front pre outs only, or f and r, or f/r/& s into your processor??? i can shut off the preamp stage of the deck... do you advise this?? also do i have to set all xover points and the eq points will be self calibrated? ie... tweets 2.5k up at 24db/oct... mid 500hz to 2.5k bandpass at 24db/oct. midbass at 65hz to 500hz at 24db/oct... subs zero to 65 hz at 24db/oct..then let the ms-8 do the rest?


If I were you I'd turn off the preamp and run the speaker level lines with no processing to the MS8. If using the preamp, I'd turn off all processing on the Pioneer and run fronts only to the MS8 (IF you can get fullrange out of the fronts; otherwise run front+sub to the MS8). As Andy posted, you can set the MS8 xovers as you like and let it handle the rest.


----------



## instalher

whats up with the moose???


----------



## n_boost

Kind of been waiting for this processer. Does anyone know how this compares to the 360.2?


----------



## 14642

kkant said:


> If using the preamp, I'd turn off all processing on the Pioneer and run fronts only to the MS8 (IF you can get fullrange out of the fronts; otherwise run front+sub to the MS8). As Andy posted, you can set the MS8 xovers as you like and let it handle the rest.


 
Precisely. Thanks.


----------



## Lanson

I've been a little out of the game on the MS-8 since a decade of pages ago and many moons..

Andy will this thing still have amplifier channels in it?


And n-boost, from owning a pair of 3sixty.2's I can safely assume this thing will annihilate it....when it comes out.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Precisely. Thanks.


So that means a single pair of RCA's to the processor....witch craft....awesomeness comes out the otherside to be sent to the amp divided into chanels for Front, Rear, and Sub?

Sounds freakin sweet. I'll be the first in line to get one of these if it happens. I realize that's not saying enough though; so I'll say that I'll be the first in line with not just a deposit, but ready to pay in full.


----------



## t3sn4f2

I'd give my left nut for a future firmware update that lets you assign one of the remote buttons to toggle between inputs.


----------



## ItalynStylion

t3sn4f2 said:


> I'd give my left nut for a future firmware update that lets you assign one of the remote buttons to toggle between inputs.


Why would this be a great thing? Why would you be switching between different sources frequently?


----------



## t3sn4f2

ItalynStylion said:


> Why would this be a great thing? Why would you be switching between different sources frequently?


I plan to hardwire an OEM head unit button to the MS-8 remote in order to switch sources (lower quality OEM head unit sources on one input and higher quality media files from a dedicated source on the other input)

Then volume control for both inputs will be done through the MS-8. Again with a hardwire to the remote. An integrated OEM head unit rotary pulse switch will be used in place of the heads own encoder.


----------



## rcurley55

It's safe to say that if this thing does what it says it will (and I have no reason to doubt it) this will be the first piece of car audio I will be willing to pay full retail for over 10 years.


----------



## Lanson

ItalynStylion said:


> So that means a single pair of RCA's to the processor....witch craft....awesomeness comes out the otherside to be sent to the amp divided into chanels for Front, Rear, and Sub?
> 
> Sounds freakin sweet. I'll be the first in line to get one of these if it happens. I realize that's not saying enough though; so I'll say that I'll be the first in line with not just a deposit, but ready to pay in full.



But, that's what the 3sixty.2 does, Italyn. One set of RCA's in, and full active processing on the other end for front / rear (or tweeters / woofers) and sub (oh and a center if you wanna.)

No, I want the MS8 for much more than that.


----------



## quality_sound

donkeypunch22 said:


> The unit is about to be launched,


----------



## kkant

rcurley55 said:


> It's safe to say that if this thing does what it says it will (and I have no reason to doubt it) this will be the first piece of car audio I will be willing to pay full retail for over 10 years.


So true. Me too.


----------



## subwoofery

Just wondering how the MS-8 will work using ID Horns instead of tweeters... 
Do you see any problem regarding this, Andy? 

Thanks, 
Kelvin


----------



## BigRed

After hearing the unit, I really believe people are going to be rethinking a center channel. I will be at least. Thats how impressed I was with it.


----------



## ItalynStylion

BigRed said:


> After hearing the unit, I really believe people are going to be rethinking a center channel. I will be at least. Thats how impressed I was with it.


Great....each one of us just looked hopelessly at the center of our dash and thought. "****, how am I going to get anything in there"


----------



## SSSnake

Sawzall?!?!


----------



## trevordj

BigRed said:


> After hearing the unit, I really believe people are going to be rethinking a center channel. I will be at least. Thats how impressed I was with it.


I am excited to hear that it made such an impression on you. This contributed to my decision to buy a volvo, it has a factory center channel so don't have to cut the dash apart on my new car. As soon as this beauty gets released it will find a place under my seat.


----------



## instalher

just finished the last iasca car show on sunday out here and the judging for my cars imaging was deadly...... imaging was just past the windsheild wipers and dead centre for centre vocals.... iam using a pair of r.f.360.2 for processing but cant wait to get my hands on this new processer up here in canada..... when i talk to ericksons they know nothing about this piece tho andy...... whats up with that or are they just being cautious.


----------



## xxx_busa

So on the drawing board planned a front stage, my setup is going to be dynaudio MW 170, MD140.2, & MD 100, right now my stage is passive. Will this unit allow me to go completely active. I have purchased 3 amps Zapco 350.2 Mid-Bass, Zapco 350.2 midrange, Zapco 200.2 tweeters is the way I'll configure the amps. I'll change the RF3Sixty.1 to something for a digital signal and active crossover, maybe this unit if it'll do the task.

My car now
RF
3Sixty.1

Speakers
Dynaudio system 340 front, & Dynaudio 340 rear
JL10W6V2 x 1

Polk Momo
400.4

Polk Momo
300.2

Pollk Momo
500.1


----------



## t3sn4f2

xxx_busa said:


> So on the drawing board planned a front stage, my setup is going to be dynaudio MW 170, MD140.2, & MD 100, right now my stage is passive. Will this unit allow me to go completely active. I have purchased 3 amps Zapco 350.2 Mid-Bass, Zapco 350.2 midrange, Zapco 200.2 tweeters is the way I'll configure the amps. I'll change the RF3Sixty.1 to something for a digital signal and active crossover, maybe this unit if it'll do the task.
> 
> My car now
> RF
> 3Sixty.1
> 
> Speakers
> Dynaudio system 340 front, & Dynaudio 340 rear
> JL10W6V2 x 1
> 
> Polk Momo
> 400.4
> 
> Polk Momo
> 300.2
> 
> Pollk Momo
> 500.1


Yes, without a sub you'll be using 6 of the 8 available channels.


----------



## Ari

kkant said:


> If I were you I'd turn off the preamp and run the speaker level lines with no processing to the MS8. If using the preamp, I'd turn off all processing on the Pioneer and run fronts only to the MS8 (IF you can get fullrange out of the fronts; otherwise run front+sub to the MS8). As Andy posted, you can set the MS8 xovers as you like and let it handle the rest.


I'm confused on a couple of things, kkant. 


Why did you recommend using speaker level lines to the MS-8? Wouldn't it be preferable to use the higher quality low level RCA lines instead?
If using the low level RCAs, why just the fronts? Would it make sense the use Front + Sub to maintain the subwoofer level control from your head unit?

Thanks.


----------



## kkant

Ari said:


> Why did you recommend using speaker level lines to the MS-8? Wouldn't it be preferable to use the higher quality low level RCA lines instead?


A couple reasons.

First of all both types of output are of the same quality, when they are driving a high impedance electronic input (like the MS8).

Second, speaker lines are balanced differential outputs, which means lower noise. To elaborate: my understanding of the electronics is that "balanced" means "equal impedance to ground on both pos and neg outputs". Regular RCA outputs tie the neg to ground and the pos to a transistor output that has a non-zero impedance to ground, whereas with speaker lines both outputs are symmetrical as far as the circuit topology. Why is that important: because on a balanced line, interference produces (almost) equal amounts of noise on both lines; the processor input takes the difference of the pos and neg lines to recreate the signal, so the noise cancels out. "Differential" refers to the signal transmitted along the lines: the neg line carries the inverse of the signal on the pos line. This is nice to have because the voltage is proportionally higher so you get an automatic 6db noise reduction.

Third, speaker lines are higher voltage period, so you get a correspondingly lower noise level from that too.



Ari said:


> If using the low level RCAs, why just the fronts? Would it make sense the use Front + Sub to maintain the subwoofer level control from your head unit?


If I had an MS8, I wouldn't use the HU sub level control. The MS8 will have it's own sub level control which is tailored to the xover and filter corrections that it has calculated. I'd use that instead.

OTOH, using the HU sub level control might not be so bad. In this situation the HU sub control is probably something like adjusting the mix on the source, and letting the MS8 put the result where it would normally put it if the extra filtering was on the CD in the first place.


----------



## n_olympios

But that would mean that the MS-8 made changes in filtering etc, in real time, according to what comes through its inputs. Does it do that? I don't think so.


----------



## ItalynStylion

n_olympios said:


> But that would mean that the MS-8 made changes in filtering etc, in real time, according to what comes through its inputs. Does it do that? I don't think so.


Doesn't sound like it.


----------



## 14642

Ari said:


> I'm confused on a couple of things, kkant.
> 
> 
> If using the low level RCAs, why just the fronts? Would it make sense the use Front + Sub to maintain the subwoofer level control from your head unit?
> Thanks.


And because the sub control in MS-8 sounds better.


----------



## kkant

n_olympios said:


> But that would mean that the MS-8 made changes in filtering etc, in real time, according to what comes through its inputs. Does it do that? I don't think so.


No, and that's not what I meant to imply.


----------



## subwoofery

subwoofery said:


> Just wondering how the MS-8 will work using ID Horns instead of tweeters...
> Do you see any problem regarding this, Andy?
> 
> Thanks,
> Kelvin


bumping myself


----------



## azngotskills

I dont really see why it would matter when the MS-8 is supposed to adjust crossover points and EQ depending on frequency/impulse response. Just my assumption


----------



## rcurley55

subwoofery said:


> bumping myself


He's answered this on the carsound forum saying that he doesn't see why it wouldn't work.

At least that's my recollection. Search MS-8 in google and you will find the thread.


----------



## ryancrouch

Yes he said it would work with horns. Here's where he answered my question about it (see last post on page)

JBL's MS-8. What does it do? - Page 19 - CARSOUND.COM Forum


----------



## t3sn4f2

JBL's MS-8. What does it do? - CARSOUND.COM Forum

Another thread on the MS-8.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy, is this still the menu layout and functionality?

"The remote control includes what we refer to as a hard volume control. THe display changes to volume anytime the volume buttons are pressed and times out to the whatever screen was displayed before the volume control was used. The user can choose to make either the audio controls menu or the main menu the default screen. The Default screen is where the unit will take the user once some procedure is completed or adjustment has been made. If you choose the audio controls menu as Default, you'd simply press the "back" button to go to the Main Menu. The choice of default screen is available anytime in the System Settings menu.

The Main Menu is:
1 Input Selection
2 Audio Controls
3 User Presets (EQ)
4 Calibration/Setup
5 System Settings

The Audio Controls Menu is:
1 System Levels
2 Tone Control
3 Input Levels
4 Logic 7 ON/OFF
5 Controls Defeat/Active
6 Reset to default

The Tone Control will include the user-adjustable EQ"


----------



## 14642

Yes. No changes there.


----------



## xxx_busa

When Can I buy ??? Is it ready yet, or should I just get the zapco dsp?


----------



## Lash

He, he, he...


----------



## 14642

Of the 43 different speaker configurations MS-8 will accommodate, I've checked 21 of them thoroughly. We're still beta testing with in-house users. As I've said a thousand times, I'll provide a date when I can provide a reliable one. Sorry for the frustration and the lack of info. I've learned my lesson, though.


----------



## Ge0

xxx_busa said:


> When Can I buy ??? Is it ready yet, or should I just get the zapco dsp?


Threads regarding when the MS-8 will be ready started over two years ago. You be the judge. The MS-8 sounds nifty but will it ever be available for mass consumption??? Zappy DSP-6 or a Zappy equipt amp is available now and work well. You make the call...

Ge0


----------



## BodegaBay

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ...I'll provide a date when I can provide a reliable one.


I'm not going to ask for a date but I'd like to know: you indicated a while ago that the main delay is software, does this mean the hardware is pretty much set?

- Is the tooling ready? Injection molds and stamping dies?
- Is the PCBA lead time pretty reasonable?

Would it be fair to say that once the it's released for production, FG can be ready in 12-16 weeks with additional time for shipping?


----------



## 14642

Tooling is complete, software is done. We're currently in validation (testing every possible configuration and debugging), which will likely turn up some things that have to be fixed. Then, there will likely be one additional board spin to fix clicks and pops and any other hardware issues. Nothing alarming and we're clearing software bugs daily and faster than new ones are popping up. 

I have one in a test car that's a giant patch bay that will support all the valid use cases and it sounds great in all the cases I've tested. The ones I haven't tested yet are the easy ones and subsets of the most difficult ones. 

When we have a production date scheduled, I'll provide that date here.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Since the tooling is done can you please give us the physical dimensions of the box? Length, width, and height? I think it would be helpful to everyone to know if its geometry will even work for their application.


----------



## kkant

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Tooling is complete, software is done. We're currently in validation (testing every possible configuration and debugging), which will likely turn up some things that have to be fixed. Then, there will likely be one additional board spin to fix clicks and pops and any other hardware issues. Nothing alarming and we're clearing software bugs daily and faster than new ones are popping up.
> 
> I have one in a test car that's a giant patch bay that will support all the valid use cases and it sounds great in all the cases I've tested. The ones I haven't tested yet are the easy ones and subsets of the most difficult ones.


Very cool. This is what I like to hear. Thanks for the info.


----------



## billymonter

Can you describe the 23 or 41 configurations for the MS-8?
thanks


----------



## Bizarroterl

2 front channels only
2 front channels and a single sub
2 front channels and 2 subs
2 fronts, a center, and 1 sub
etc, etc, etc.

That'll probably cover most if not all of the different configurations.


----------



## subwoofery

Please read the thread... I know it's long but it has all the infos you'll ever need... 

Here's another one: 
JBL's MS-8. What does it do? - CARSOUND.COM Forum 

Kelvin


----------



## LiquidClen

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Of the 43 different speaker configurations MS-8 will accommodate, I've checked 21 of them thoroughly. We're still beta testing with in-house users. *As I've said a thousand times, I'll provide a date when I can provide a reliable one.* Sorry for the frustration and the lack of info. I've learned my lesson, though.


2.5 years later and still no reliable date? wow.


----------



## Bizarroterl

LiquidClen said:


> 2.5 years later and still no reliable date? wow.


No date is reliable until after it occurs.


----------



## LiquidClen

Bizarroterl said:


> No date is reliable until after it occurs.


That's why you give a range . You act as if companies don't plan on a completion date for projects.


----------



## ErinH

LiquidClen said:


> That's why you give a range . You act as if companies don't plan on a completion date for projects.


work for the government.


----------



## SQ_Only

bikinpunk said:


> work for the government.


Or Microsoft...


----------



## Boostedrex

bikinpunk said:


> work for the government.


HEY!! I resemble that remark. LOL!! 

Andy, the MS-8 seems like it's coming along nicely. Thanks for the reports on the progress. Best of luck with the remainder of your testing.


----------



## ErinH

Boostedrex said:


> HEY!! I *resemble* that remark. LOL!!


Pun, or do you _resent_ that remark?

If it was a pun, NICE!


----------



## ibanzil

I am gunning to land lucky post #1000. That's my goal and I am dedicated.


----------



## Bizarroterl

LiquidClen said:


> That's why you give a range . You act as if companies don't plan on a completion date for projects.


It'll be done when it's done.


----------



## 14642

Bizarroterl said:


> It'll be done when it's done.


When I worked in retail as an installation manager, that's what my installers used to tell me when I asked them when they'd be finished. Come to think of it, that's what I used to say when I was an installer.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> When I worked in retail as an installation manager, that's what my installers used to tell me when I asked them when they'd be finished. Come to think of it, that's what I used to say when I was an installer.


And after you said that...how many happy faces did you see?


----------



## VP Electricity

Notice he never said "and that's what I told the customer". 

While I understand the decision, Andy, it's not reasonable to say, "I've failed, so I won't ever commit to anything again, to keep from failing". I learned that from watching David Letterman on Monday


----------



## ItalynStylion

VP Electricity said:


> Notice he never said "and that's what I told the customer".


Touche....:lol:


----------



## Bizarroterl

Say JBL released it and hadn't fully tested it. Undoubtedly there would be some problems with it. I wonder who would be most vocal about it being released before it was ready?

Like it or not, Andy has essentially said it will be released when it is ready. Don't like it? Go buy something else. It's as simple as that.


----------



## VP Electricity

Bizarroterl said:


> Like it or not, Andy has essentially said it will be released when it is ready. Don't like it? Go buy something else. It's as simple as that.


No, it's not - nice try, though. 

I suspect over the past three years, NO ONE has waited for the device, and EVERYONE who was a candidate for it originally HAS gone and bought something else in the meantime - so your statement, while refreshingly saucy, is meaningless. 

The only reason anyone stays on the thread, whether they seem positively inclined or negatively inclined, is because they want to see the damn thing ship. 

The only reason that I keep gently reminding that a refusal to commit is not automatically a more ethical position than failing to meet a commitment you've made, is that I've been in this boat that Andy's in. The Responder HD is finally shipping. That was originally supposed to ship in July of last year. They still aren't shipping the Clifford version! I left in March. It had been in beta for 3 months when I left. 

Does Andy do the development? No. Does he have to be the interface between the channel and the company? Yeah. Do I feel for him? Sure I do. But that doesn't mean I accept the sort of statements no one would accept from ME when I had that hat on


----------



## LiquidClen

Bizarroterl said:


> It'll be done when it's done.


Thank you for the insight Capt. Obvious


----------



## rommelrommel

Echoes of the IDOne :S


----------



## 6spdcoupe

VP Electricity said:


> No, it's not - nice try, though.
> 
> I suspect over the past three years, NO ONE has waited for the device, and EVERYONE who was a candidate for it originally HAS gone and bought something else in the meantime - so your statement, while refreshingly saucy, is meaningless.
> 
> The only reason anyone stays on the thread, whether they seem positively inclined or negatively inclined, is because they want to see the damn thing ship.
> 
> *The only reason that I keep gently reminding that a refusal to commit is not automatically a more ethical position than failing to meet a commitment you've made, is that I've been in this boat that Andy's in. The Responder HD is finally shipping. That was originally supposed to ship in July of last year. They still aren't shipping the Clifford version! I left in March. It had been in beta for 3 months when I left. *
> 
> Does Andy do the development? No. Does he have to be the interface between the channel and the company? Yeah. Do I feel for him? Sure I do. But that doesn't mean I accept the sort of statements no one would accept from ME when I had that hat on



Actually they finally are. Mine came in yesterday and one is already in my truck.  However technically speaking this should have been released, eh circa '06-7 ? as a 5.5x G5 unit.


----------



## 14642

VP Electricity said:


> Notice he never said "and that's what I told the customer".
> 
> While I understand the decision, Andy, it's not reasonable to say, "I've failed, so I won't ever commit to anything again, to keep from failing". I learned that from watching David Letterman on Monday


I'm not failing to commit or being obtuse about the availability. I've written before and I'll write it again here--as soon as we have a scheduled production date--which means testing is complete enough to have some certainty about the amount of testing, bug killing and board spinning is left to do--I'll post that date here. 

This week we made substantial changes to the bass manager as a result of my testing and we have another guy in the verification lab whose job it is to run this thing in EVERY POSSIBLE CONFIGURATION and exercise every menu option and button press in each of those configurations to identify bugs. That's a big job and one that I feel certain is sorely lacking in the development of products for our part of the CE industry.

I'm not going to apologize for my unwillingness to experiment on your $800. Will we find every bug? Probably not. Will there be cases where MS-8 won't work on a particular system? Probably. 

Basically, we have a team of people shoring up the performance within the product spec and another team of people trying to blow up the unit and logging th technical details of every attempt in a big database. Every time someone makes it fail, we have to decide whether that's a bug or whether that's outside the intended operation and how to explain the error to a consumer and help him or her overcome it. 

Here's an example: Last Monday, I bought a Pioneer radio, hooked it up to MS-8 and ran a battery of tests. Then, I shorted the radio's RCA shilds to 12V to blow the "pico fuse" and we ran another battery of tests to find out what MS-8 would do and identify error modes that would allow us to identify this all-too-common problem. Why? So that when this happens, we'll be able to help consumers and installers troubleshoot quickly and successfully. 

Of course, we can't test all the potential trouble spots, but we'll test as many as we can in the time we have.


----------



## Oliver

VP , we have different ideas of failing 

"I've failed, so I won't ever commit to anything again, to keep from failing". I learned that from watching David Letterman on Monday 

If getting blackmailed for tapping some ladies 1/2 your age is failing to you !

He provided schooling and tv time for them in return they enjoyed his suite


----------



## Need-sq

Product development is a ginormous undertaking and most programs/projects end up over budget and out of the initial time window. This wouldn't be the norm if it were a straight forward process, nor would whole careers, and areas of study be devoted to how to solve the complexities inherent in such undertakings.........and, as said already, no one wants to put out a product prematurely, as this is what you end up with:surprised:...........sory for the language. I couldn't change the name of the link. 

WARNING: LINK CONTAINS EXPLICIT LANGUAGE DIRECTLY RELATED TO ELECTRONICS! DO NOT FOLLOW LINK IF THE LANGUAGE THROUGHOUT "GOOD FELLAS" INSULTED YOU..............MODS, DELETE IT'S TOO MUCH.


Sony Releases New Stupid Piece Of **** That Doesn't ****ing Work | The Onion - America's Finest News Source


----------



## PaulD

the language is pretty atrocious but it's EXACTLY how most people feel about tech stuff today.


----------



## VP Electricity

Need-sq said:


> Product development is a ginormous undertaking and most programs/projects end up over budget and out of the initial time window. This wouldn't be the norm if it were a straight forward process, nor would whole careers, and areas of study be devoted to how to solve the complexities inherent in such undertakings.........


Those assholes are part of the problem. If it weren't for MBAs and people who went to school for crap like "Stage-Gate", things would happen faster and be right more often.


----------



## Bizarroterl

LiquidClen said:


> Thank you for the insight Capt. Obvious


Thanks, I thought you'd understand.


----------



## Lanson

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> When I worked in retail as an installation manager, that's what my installers used to tell me when I asked them when they'd be finished. Come to think of it, that's what I used to say when I was an installer.



When I was an installer (home theater) I used to say the same thing, but I always reminded them that being OCD and really specific to how wiring was done that I would "come off the clock" if I felt that the only reason I was still there was to make it 100% perfect.

I just think you are trying to make this "perfect", and for that I applaud you. It has taken a long time but so far no other company has tried to do this even since you initially had plans to release this years ago. There are some that have come somewhat close, but the overall package of the JBL is so far unmatched. 

I encourage you to start a group buy for early adopters because I will be there with a fist full of cash...and I know a lot of DIYMA members will be there with me.


----------



## Technic

The fundamental mistake here was announcing the MS-8 three years ago. Everything else is the normal development process of any consumer product. Sometimes is on time, sometimes it doesn't...


----------



## ibanzil

......999


----------



## ibanzil

1000!!!!!

IDE like to thank all the people who asked the same q's several times, the arguements, and everyone else who made this possible. 

Thankyou and goodnight.


----------



## Onyx1136

Andy, I was thinking about the possible configurations of the outputs of the MS-8, and came across a situation I'm not certain of. if one wanted to run a fully active 3-way left and right front stage, plus a 2-way center channel and subwoofer, and maybe even a rear stage, the MS-8 lacks enough outputs to do it all active. I'm guessing you would advise someone in that situation to not run the crossovers active and go passive instead. but, would it ever be possible to link 2 MS-8's together, or simply run two of them at the same time? the front stage and center channel on one processor and the rear and subwoofers on the second processor? is there anything in the software or hardware that would prevent one from using two MS-8's in the same setup? 

I understand that the setup I'm asking about is probably going to be very uncommon. hell, an all active crossover, full surround, n-car audio setup might be the least common request in all of mobile 12 volt. I'm just curious if it would even be possible for two of the units to run in conjunction with each other.

Owen


----------



## 14642

In that configuration, I'd suggest using outboard amplifiers and crossovers for the 2-way and 3-way output channels to make up the difference in the required number of channels and using MS-8 for EQ and matrix processing.


----------



## ItalynStylion

fourthmeal said:


> I encourage you to start a group buy for early adopters because I will be there with a fist full of cash...and I know a lot of DIYMA members will be there with me.


As I stated before; I'd be in...where do I sign?


----------



## Lanson

Onyx1136 said:


> Andy, I was thinking about the possible configurations of the outputs of the MS-8, and came across a situation I'm not certain of. if one wanted to run a fully active 3-way left and right front stage, plus a 2-way center channel and subwoofer, and maybe even a rear stage, the MS-8 lacks enough outputs to do it all active. I'm guessing you would advise someone in that situation to not run the crossovers active and go passive instead. but, would it ever be possible to link 2 MS-8's together, or simply run two of them at the same time? the front stage and center channel on one processor and the rear and subwoofers on the second processor? is there anything in the software or hardware that would prevent one from using two MS-8's in the same setup?
> 
> I understand that the setup I'm asking about is probably going to be very uncommon. hell, an all active crossover, full surround, n-car audio setup might be the least common request in all of mobile 12 volt. I'm just curious if it would even be possible for two of the units to run in conjunction with each other.
> 
> Owen



A pair of 3sxity.2's can do that. 10.2 processing, strapped together and jumpered.


3 way left
3 way right (6)
2 way center (8)
1 coaxial rear pair (10)
left and right stereo sub (10.2)

But that is a LOT of processing, and a nice amount of amps. I could see two leviathans, and a Kronos amp doing it, though. Or something like that


----------



## 14642

But it doesn't do Logic7, auto EQ...blh blah blah...


----------



## ibanzil

^^^^yeah, but can the ms8 sprinkle loads of magical SQ dust like pear cable:laugh: or match the magical SQ of these elf engineered, fairy assembled oil filled RCA cables?

All jokes aside...excited for the release.


----------



## SQ_Only

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> But it doesn't do Logic7, auto EQ...blh blah blah...


Perhaps... But then neither does my MS8.



ibanzil said:


> All jokes aside...excited for the release.


Release? Hold on... When was that?


----------



## Need-sq

Technic said:


> The fundamental mistake here was announcing the MS-8 three years ago. Everything else is the normal development process of any consumer product. Sometimes is on time, sometimes it doesn't...


Absolutely agree........Once worked for a Medical device company that promised a certain product by a certain date and had actually collected payment for a few, and down payments on some others ( and hear we're talking about ($150k+ each)......almost a year after promised date they released it.....needless to say they were F'd pretty bad. Not such a good thing to do if you want to keep your customers and share holders on-board, let alone happy.


----------



## Bizarroterl

It's very encouraging to see the testing strategy and how it's progressing. I'm getting really excited about this. Now if I could get a break in the endless home improvement projects so I can strip an interior and start sound control modifications.


----------



## ibanzil

Release? Hold on... When was that?[/QUOTE]

Ohh you didnt know? Big Lots has exclusive rights to sell them until the official release, picked one up about a month ago. Since you missed the release, check out this picture of the Big Lots ms8 release party!


----------



## t3sn4f2

So I just found out today that I can output Rhapsody subscription files through the SPDIF output on my EMU-0404PCI. Sure would be nice if that DIY digital input mod for the MS-8 is still on the table. 

(and an input toggle from a remote control button )


----------



## 14642

SQ_Only said:


> Perhaps... But then neither does my MS8.
> 
> 
> Release? Hold on... When was that?


Before you get your panties in a bunch, I wasn't implying that the 360 isn't a good piece of gear. It is and it'll support the configuration in question..or a pair will. I was simply pointing out a couple of the differences. Am I the only person on this forum who can remain at least somewhat neutral regarding product comparisons? Why is simply stating the differences between two products like shouting "Allah Akbar" in a Baptist Church in Birmingham?

In any case, MS-8 isn't shipping yet so ALL OTHER PROCESSORS ARE CURRENTLY BETTER THAN MS-8.


----------



## Lanson

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Before you get your panties in a bunch, I wasn't implying that the 360 isn't a good piece of gear. It is and it'll support the configuration in question..or a pair will. I was simply pointing out a couple of the differences. Am I the only person on this forum who can remain at least somewhat neutral regarding product comparisons? Why is simply stating the differences between two products like shouting "Allah Akbar" in a Baptist Church in Birmingham?
> 
> In any case, MS-8 isn't shipping yet so ALL OTHER PROCESSORS ARE CURRENTLY BETTER THAN MS-8.


Exactly, Andy. I was simply giving a "now" solution to the guy's problem. Like I said before, I'm already in line for your product because I know it will outperform my 3sixty.2's. In fact, I remember when this all first came out years ago... I was in line then, too...lol.


----------



## Onyx1136

ok, so I got the answer I that I thought I'd get. use passive crossovers. but Andy, if one "needed" 12(or more) channels in their setup, doesn't using a bunch of passive crossovers diminish the usefullness of the MS-8 somewhat? instead of using the active crossovers of the unit, it's going to be relying on the set crossover points of the passives, which may or may not be ideal for the vehicle/setup. and with more than one speaker per output channel, is the time alignment capability limited as well, especially if the multiple drivers on one channel are in different locations? maybe a midbass in the kick, with mid and tweet in dash pods.

Andy, I hope this doesn't come across as me trying to rag on you or your product. I am very interested in it when it comes out, I just like to know exactly what it will and will not do. is there any possiblity that the ability to link two of them together would be a forthcoming software upgrade after it is released?

Owen


----------



## CobraVin

First id like to thank Andy for keeping up with this thread and answering questions about it, with the exception of him and Robert from Zapco it seems rare for companies to be this personal. I think people forget how small of a segment we are probably going to be in the grand sales scheme of this product and technology. I'm sure hes going to need more than a 20 unit group buy to break even, and he seems to be taking a lot of flack for things that seemed to be out of his hands. I'm sure hes more disappointed in the delays than we are, (and Ive been wanting one since i first heard about it)

anyway... my questions for Andy OR anyone else interested in sharing their opinions are...

1) can the 20 w output channels be bridged?

2) how much ventilation is going to be needed, say if i decide to run all channels into amps, would the ms-8 get too hot for a glove box install? or a small storage compartment?

3) what are the dimensions of the controller?, is the main unit still 8.5 x 11.5 x 2.5?

and lastly based on the below description of my new (truck install) what would you recommend for a center channel (size wise) i was thinking of either a 5" revelator or illuminator and the new illuminator tweet, the center speakers are the only ones i don't have yet

i plan on putting my scan 6000 tweets and 12m's (4" mids) in the factory locations in the corner of the dash, my 7" revelators in the doors, a pair of vifa pl's and quart tweets in the back doors, and my aura subs under the rear seats, i was going to use passives on the tweet/mids(since i would need the ms-10 version if i didn't  i saw that you recommended crossing the mid bass at 1000hz, (which seems awfully high) in my last two installs with these speakers i had the 7" crossed at 300, and the mid from 300 to 1500-2000, since these tweets play effortlessly down to 1500 with an 18db slope

do you think i should leave the mids out and just do a two way?

would having another 7" rev in the center channel with a two way front stage be a better idea?

if it were your truck and you had everything but the center how would you set it up? and what crossover points would you suggest?

thanks

Vin


----------



## left channel

CobraVin said:


> 1) can the 20 w output channels be bridged?


Along the same lines, are the 8 channels 2 ohm stable?


----------



## 14642

Onyx1136 said:


> ok, so I got the answer I that I thought I'd get. use passive crossovers. but Andy, if one "needed" 12(or more) channels in their setup, doesn't using a bunch of passive crossovers diminish the usefullness of the MS-8 somewhat? instead of using the active crossovers of the unit, it's going to be relying on the set crossover points of the passives, which may or may not be ideal for the vehicle/setup. and with more than one speaker per output channel, is the time alignment capability limited as well, especially if the multiple drivers on one channel are in different locations? maybe a midbass in the kick, with mid and tweet in dash pods.
> 
> Andy, I hope this doesn't come across as me trying to rag on you or your product. I am very interested in it when it comes out, I just like to know exactly what it will and will not do. is there any possiblity that the ability to link two of them together would be a forthcoming software upgrade after it is released?
> 
> Owen


A passive network between midrange and tweeter is sufficient, but for midbass, i'd suggest an additional amplifier with an active filter. For this setup, I'd simply add a 4-channel amplifier and use half of it for the mid/tweeter and the other half for the midbass. If you're using a center channel, the time alignment for left and right is nearly inconsequential, since the left right and center steering nearly eliminates the need for the phantom center, which is what TA provides. 

The amplifier channels are designed to drive 2 ohms, but theyt are not bridgeable.


----------



## 14642

CobraVin said:


> First id like to thank Andy for keeping up with this thread and answering questions about it, with the exception of him and Robert from Zapco it seems rare for companies to be this personal. I think people forget how small of a segment we are probably going to be in the grand sales scheme of this product and technology. I'm sure hes going to need more than a 20 unit group buy to break even, and he seems to be taking a lot of flack for things that seemed to be out of his hands. I'm sure hes more disappointed in the delays than we are, (and Ive been wanting one since i first heard about it)
> 
> anyway... my questions for Andy OR anyone else interested in sharing their opinions are...
> 
> 1) can the 20 w output channels be bridged?
> 
> 2) how much ventilation is going to be needed, say if i decide to run all channels into amps, would the ms-8 get too hot for a glove box install? or a small storage compartment?
> 
> 3) what are the dimensions of the controller?, is the main unit still 8.5 x 11.5 x 2.5?
> 
> and lastly based on the below description of my new (truck install) what would you recommend for a center channel (size wise) i was thinking of either a 5" revelator or illuminator and the new illuminator tweet, the center speakers are the only ones i don't have yet
> 
> i plan on putting my scan 6000 tweets and 12m's (4" mids) in the factory locations in the corner of the dash, my 7" revelators in the doors, a pair of vifa pl's and quart tweets in the back doors, and my aura subs under the rear seats, i was going to use passives on the tweet/mids(since i would need the ms-10 version if i didn't  i saw that you recommended crossing the mid bass at 1000hz, (which seems awfully high) in my last two installs with these speakers i had the 7" crossed at 300, and the mid from 300 to 1500-2000, since these tweets play effortlessly down to 1500 with an 18db slope
> 
> do you think i should leave the mids out and just do a two way?
> 
> would having another 7" rev in the center channel with a two way front stage be a better idea?
> 
> if it were your truck and you had everything but the center how would you set it up? and what crossover points would you suggest?
> 
> thanks
> 
> Vin


Certainly crossing the mids over lower than 1k is fine--the idea is to use the drivers in their piston ranges (where dispersion is wide). I also think that the rest of your system plan is good. So long as the 5" you plan to put in the center has useful output down to around 100Hz, it'll be great. The bass management system will take care of the rest. 

As far as ventilation goes, if you'll use the 20 watt outputs, I suggest mounting this thing under the seat or somewhere that some air will be able to flow. The unit size is about what you've described--I don't have the info in front of me.


----------



## AAAAAAA

I am just happy the prject hasn't been canned after this long.


----------



## tdc_worm

AAAAAAA said:


> I am just happy the prject hasn't been canned after this long.


no doubt...almost seems cost prohibitive at this point....


----------



## Babs

AAAAAAA said:


> I am just happy the prject hasn't been canned after this long.


I'll give you an Amen to that.
:cwm33: No hurry here.


----------



## VP Electricity

tdc_worm said:


> no doubt...almost seems cost prohibitive at this point....


Only one way to retrieve the sunk costs... unless there's IP in it.


----------



## 14642

The whole thing is IP and it's the precursor to the rest of recovering the investment. There's not a single on-chip library in use in the TI DSP we're using.


----------



## VP Electricity

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ... it's the precursor to the rest of recovering the investment.


I smell licensing...


----------



## left channel

VP Electricity said:


> I smell licensing...


i smell better premium system offerings from the auto manuf. a version without the user interface that they set and forget.


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> .....
> *The unit size *is about what you've described--I don't have the info in front of me.



.. and its design will remain like this ?

thanks


----------



## ItalynStylion

^Where the hell did that come from...did I miss that in the past pages of this thread?


----------



## Lanson

ItalynStylion said:


> ^Where the hell did that come from...did I miss that in the past pages of this thread?


That is the graphic they used in magazines, press releases, ec. ... years ago.


----------



## 14642

VP Electricity said:


> I smell licensing...


 
Nope.


----------



## 14642

left channel said:


> i smell better premium system offerings from the auto manuf. a version without the user interface that they set and forget.


 Nope to that one too.


----------



## 14642

TPMS said:


> .. and its design will remain like this ?
> 
> thanks


Well...the display and the remote will look like that, but the main unit won't. We've revised the design to look like a small family of products that will be the new "MS-Series". I like the new design better, but I don't have any pictures to post.


----------



## Bizarroterl

MS Series? Can you comment on what that will consist of? Will the MS-8 be the premier item in that series?


----------



## AAAAAAA

I think there other MS series stuff will be similar to the infinity full range class D amps they have out now but with a different look. I wonder if those RJ45 like connectors will interface somehow with the ms8...


----------



## ryancrouch

Can't wait to see the new productS. And the demo car!


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well...the display and the remote will look like that, but the main unit won't. We've revised the design to look like a small family of products that will be the new "MS-Series". I like the new design better, but I don't have any pictures to post.


*.. must wait for a 10ch now ?:*
(so that, if using two pairs of ch on front doors, could avoid the dilemma of putting two ch remaining on parallel for rear doors together with rear satellites .. )

btw, no need for me to have that 20watt amplification embedded in the device: a battery of specific amps is already waiting to connect to the ms-8 outputs.
just need it to have low-level input capability, as I am one of those who do prefer using pre-outs instead of speaker lines. (especially after all the work done on the audiogateway to get 'em out of it)


----------



## SQ_Only

You guys are just as pathetic as I was. You guys are buying audio gear to go with a device that doesn't exist. I actually bought a vehicle that the MS8 would have fit nicely with, but the rumored existence of this mysterious device actually outlived the vehicle by 13 months! (so far)


----------



## 14642

SQ_Only said:


> You guys are just as pathetic as I was. You guys are buying audio gear to go with a device that doesn't exist. I actually bought a vehicle that the MS8 would have fit nicely with, but the rumored existence of this mysterious device actually outlived the vehicle by 13 months! (so far)


I guess you learned your lesson. I'm still trying to figure out how to install a beta unit in the camel I'm riding around LA. They're legal in the HOV lane here.


----------



## SQ_Only

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I guess you learned your lesson.


Yeah... Never trust anyone with a picture of an unlabled black box in their trunk.


----------



## CobraVin

SQ_Only said:


> You guys are just as pathetic as I was. You guys are buying audio gear to go with a device that doesn't exist. I actually bought a vehicle that the MS8 would have fit nicely with, but the rumored existence of this mysterious device actually outlived the vehicle by 13 months! (so far)


well the only thing im buying is a center channel speaker, but its not an exlusive ms-8 center channel speaker Bill,i can use it with or without the ms-8, guess that makes me pathetic, oh well ive been called worse

but why so angry Bill, did you build your car around this piece or something? or is this something personal between you and Andy?

it seems there have been unforseen setbacks, but it also seems to be in the final stages of completion, and im looking forward to trying this piece out, as well as a bunch of others here, should we hide our enthusiasm because its been delayed? and not try and figure out what it can do and how we can integrate the piece into out systems? would that make you feel better Bill or do you just need a hug today?


----------



## SQ_Only

CobraVin said:


> ...but why so angry Bill, did you build your car around this piece or something? or is this something personal between you and Andy?


Why do you think I'm angry? Is my text the wrong color? There's nothing personal between Andy and I, and in fact I thought we've gotten along fine. We've had some exchanges about this behind the scenes, and it was always cordial and productive.

Look at it from a point of view other than your own. The guy made a huge blunder by announcing this thing years and years too early. For most of us, this would have been a career ender, but Andy is still hanging on...

Add to that, the worst economy in my 20+ years of being an 'observer' in this industry, and I'm sitting back and laughing, because (conversely) most of us are performing at our highest level just to keep our positions in corporate America. 



CobraVin said:


> ...but it also seems to be in the final stages of completion...


I thought the same thing... It was a couple of months away from completion... He just needed to finalize one more tweak in the software... In 2007.


----------



## CobraVin

SQ_Only said:


> Look at it from a point of view other than your own. The guy made a huge blunder by announcing this thing years and years too early. For most of us, this would have been a career ender, but Andy is still hanging on...
> 
> i have been waiting for this piece from the beginning as well, so i understand being frustrated, and in hind sight im sure it was a big mistake to announce it back then, but unless you believe there was intentional deception on his part in dragging this out i dont get all the bitching on this thread directed towards Andy, i mean maybe towards the guy that was writing the code that quit, or to people over Andy in the company that delayed or shelved the project, that i could see
> ...but that would be looking at it from a point of view other than YOUR own
> 
> 
> 
> Add to that, the worst economy in my 20+ years of being an 'observer' in this industry, and I'm sitting back and laughing, because (conversely) most of us are performing at our highest level just to keep our positions in corporate America.
> 
> again maybe the delays were out of his hands
> 
> 
> I thought the same thing... It was a couple of months away from completion... He just needed to finalize one more tweak in the software... In 2007.
> 
> well it sounds like they are close,(unless Andy's master plan is just to deceive us all) i guess well see,


so are you gonna buy one IF it does come out? or are you too swole now?


----------



## TPMS

SQ_Only said:


> You guys are just as pathetic as I was. You guys are buying audio gear to go with a device that doesn't exist. I actually bought a vehicle that the MS8 would have fit nicely with, but the rumored existence of this mysterious device actually outlived the vehicle by 13 months! (so far)


sorry, but really don't see where the problem is: this long awaited thing is finally only an additional/optional device.
I guess that every system, not only mine, can continue working without it or with some other device which is already available.
nonetheless any tchnological improvement in the state of the art is always welcomed and there's nothing wrong trusting it will.


----------



## SQ_Only

CobraVin said:


> so are you gonna buy one IF it does come out? or are you too swole now?


First, I should tell you that I don't have an expectation that it will actually be available for sale, ever. JBL produced their prototypes so that their vehicles could display them in a few competitions. (happens a lot more than you think)

Second, if it ever did get produced, I'll need to evaluate what vehicle I'm driving at the time, if I'm still alive.


----------



## 14642

We'll deliver it.


----------



## donkeypunch22

Andy, I want to get you a shirt that says:

*HATERS INSPIRE ME!! THANK YOU.*


----------



## dkh

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> We'll deliver it.


I CAN'T wait for this to become reality...

No serioulsy, fingers crossed


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy, I have a question about the DIY digital input mod for the MS-8 you mentioned a while back. Will it be possible to send the MS-8 an I²S bus output from a _closely_ mounted USB to I²S converter? 

The device has these pinouts.

•Pin 1: Ground
•Pin 2: MCLK
•Pin 3: LRCLK
•Pin 4: BCLK
•Pin 5: DATA


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> Andy, I have a question about the DIY digital input mod for the MS-8 you mentioned a while back. Will it be possible to send the MS-8 an I²S bus output from a _closely_ mounted USB to I²S converter?
> 
> The device has these pinouts.
> 
> •Pin 1: Ground
> •Pin 2: MCLK
> •Pin 3: LRCLK
> •Pin 4: BCLK
> •Pin 5: DATA


 
Ahhh...like an Aardvark. That's how much of the development has been done on prototype boards, but now that the microcontroller and display code is basically finished, that interface is obsolete. What would you want to do with the computer connected to this thing?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Ahhh...like an Aardvark. That's how much of the development has been done on prototype boards, but now that the microcontroller and display code is basically finished, that interface is obsolete. What would you want to do with the computer connected to this thing?


Don't know if it would help with the sound but I though maybe using a USB to i2s converter instead of a USB to spdif converter to send the music from a carpc would better since it would skip the convertion to and from spdif. Or is any advantage it might bring insignificant and would complicate things for nothing.


----------



## kkant

t3sn4f2 said:


> Don't know if it would help with the sound but I though maybe using a USB to i2s converter instead of a USB to spdif converter to send the music from a carpc would better since it would skip the convertion to and from spdif. Or is any advantage it might bring insignificant and would complicate things for nothing.


I'm guessing the latter.  If you are running 2 channel from the USB, then S/PDIF is lossless--so you shouldn't see any degradation there. Actually I think spdif is lossless regardless of stereo vs multi-channel. Do what's easiest and most convenient, I say.


----------



## djcwardog

*Re: JBL's MS-8 processor! BMW E60 Specifics...*

My First Post Here but not really a rookie... Thanks for the great resource!

I am one of those guys who likes the idea of OEM integration. I recently bought my latest "new" car - a 2007 BMW 550i without Logic7. I found this thread (and eventual consumer product) in a web search and I am glad I did. I have obtained just about all I need for my car to run speaker-level inputs into this device - in the trunk - and let it do its thing. I will use the planned 20 watt amp integrated within to power my add-on center channel speaker. 

For you BMW-specific folks, for the E60 cars you want to find the Blaupunkt adapter cables and long extension they sold for use with their PnP THA-555 amps. Do a quick search in the 5Series forums for an excellent thread on particulars... The amps are now OOP, but still around on ebay... I plan to get the BSW Stage 1 speaker upgrade kit and an extra driver for the stock location center channel speaker. At least to start, I have no desire to electronically isolate the tweeters from woofers (i.e. replace or bypass the factory crossovers) in doors or rear deck. I'll want to just send a signal to each corner of the car and let the factory crossover split it... Hopefully that won't interfere with the creation or use of a flat signal by the MS-8 This should give me a 4-channel main setup (front LR and Rear LR) + center channel + mono to 2 factory subs (swapped out with identical form factor 8" Earthquakes), totalling 6 channels in all. 

Any plans to have this able to integrate into iDrive (Yes - I get that this would likely require a dealer trip to program, plus a kit plus instructions from JBL as to fiber optic cables and power feeds, OEM-spec harnesses, etc...)? 

In any event, I can't wait to try this out.


----------



## instalher

you guys are getting way to complicated with your converting this to that then back again..... holy crap lets make this much much simpler..... just go buy the new ford transit connect and hire a live band to play in the back!!!!!!!!! lol anyway andy keep up the great work..... ps run for president, i dont think obama is gonna make it at the rate he is going...


----------



## ItalynStylion

I must have missed the part where there was a 20watt amp integrated into it. How in the world does that work/is connected?


----------



## t3sn4f2

ItalynStylion said:


> I must have missed the part where there was a 20watt amp integrated into it. How in the world does that work/is connected?


It's internal and you choose what kind of output (ie line or speaker level) you per active channel.


----------



## backwoods

instalher said:


> , i dont think obama is gonna make it at the rate he is going...


Obama was still a rookie in congress when we started talking about this piece...


----------



## Chad335

I'd love to see this on the market - will be interesting to see what the actual unit becomes available.


----------



## djcwardog

*Re: JBL's MS-8 processor! 10/22 Status from JBL*

After sending them an inquiry online from their website, I got a nice email from JBL's customer support on 10/22. It read:

"Thank you for your inquiry. Unfortunately, we do not have a release date yet. Please check our website periodically for updates."


----------



## 14642

*Re: JBL's MS-8 processor! 10/22 Status from JBL*



djcwardog said:


> After sending them an inquiry online from their website, I got a nice email from JBL's customer support on 10/22. It read:
> 
> "Thank you for your inquiry. Unfortunately, we do not have a release date yet. Please check our website periodically for updates."


Oh, that must be why I got an email from Online Customer Support asking me for a release date last week.


----------



## Lanson

At least we know that the channels of communication are open at Harmon.


----------



## Technic

*Re: JBL's MS-8 processor! BMW E60 Specifics...*



djcwardog said:


> My First Post Here but not really a rookie... Thanks for the great resource!
> 
> I am one of those guys who likes the idea of OEM integration. I recently bought my latest "new" car - a 2007 BMW 550i without Logic7. I found this thread (and eventual consumer product) in a web search and I am glad I did. I have obtained just about all I need for my car to run speaker-level inputs into this device - in the trunk - and let it do its thing. I will use the planned 20 watt amp integrated within to power my add-on center channel speaker.
> 
> For you BMW-specific folks, for the E60 cars you want to find the Blaupunkt adapter cables and long extension they sold for use with their PnP THA-555 amps. Do a quick search in the 5Series forums for an excellent thread on particulars... The amps are now OOP, but still around on ebay... I plan to get the BSW Stage 1 speaker upgrade kit and an extra driver for the stock location center channel speaker. At least to start, I have no desire to electronically isolate the tweeters from woofers (i.e. replace or bypass the factory crossovers) in doors or rear deck. I'll want to just send a signal to each corner of the car and let the factory crossover split it... Hopefully that won't interfere with the creation or use of a flat signal by the MS-8 This should give me a 4-channel main setup (front LR and Rear LR) + center channel + mono to 2 factory subs (swapped out with identical form factor 8" Earthquakes), totalling 6 channels in all.
> 
> Any plans to have this able to integrate into iDrive (Yes - I get that this would likely require a dealer trip to program, plus a kit plus instructions from JBL as to fiber optic cables and power feeds, OEM-spec harnesses, etc...)?
> 
> In any event, I can't wait to try this out.


A couple of things:

- I guess that you know that the HiFi system configuration in the iDrive M-ASK/CCC in your 550i outputs only the midrange-up frequencies for the front and rear 4" components and a separate amp in the trunk outputs the low to mid frequencies for the stereo underseat woofers. Therefore you will need to use all the 6-channels outputs into the MS-8 to sum and create a full signal. 

The underseat woofers output from the MS-8 should continue to be in stereo as they will also carry some midrange (up to around 200Hz in the case of the SWS-8) that the 4" drivers would be too small to reproduce with enough impact. 

- The M-ASK/CCC HiFi system output is _analog_, in other words the fiber optic connected to it does not output audio (like the Logic7/Top HiFi system), it is only to communicate with other MOST devices (Assist, Sirius, CD Changer) and handle their audio outputs into the iDrive. Therefore there is no interface possible to any digital input device in the way that you envision.


----------



## VP Electricity

*Re: JBL's MS-8 processor! BMW E60 Specifics...*



djcwardog said:


> My First Post Here but not really a rookie... Thanks for the great resource!
> 
> I am one of those guys who likes the idea of OEM integration. I recently bought my latest "new" car - a 2007 BMW 550i without Logic7.


I've done an audio upgrade in a non-L7 E60. I wouldn't touch a Blau amp with a 10-foot pole. 

I would recommend a Zapco DC amp complement, depending on your plans. Use BTL speaker-level attenuators. 

If you are serious about a nice SQ system in that car, I'm happy to provide guidance on what really works, but a Blau amp is NOT on my menu (nor many around here).


----------



## VP Electricity

Here is my post on the matter (pics are now gone  )


----------



## xlynoz

backwoods said:


> Obama was still a rookie in congress when we started talking about this piece...


Well if we are going by when Obama was last a rookie, this thread started about 4 hours ago :laugh:


----------



## ItalynStylion

fourthmeal said:


> At least we know that the channels of communication are open at Harmon.


That's what I was thinking. A good sign indeed.


----------



## ItalynStylion

The doctor said this thread is due for it's weekly checkup


----------



## eclipse_DYN

Indeed, any updates there Andy?


----------



## IBcivic

http://new.wavlist.com/soundfx/014/cricket-1.wav


----------



## 14642

Child Birth Animation, Usmle.Tv


----------



## Lanson

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Child Birth Animation, Usmle.Tv



LMAO, please tell me trying to get one is going to be as hard as childbirth! lol!

Or as expensive.

Or as messy....OK I'll stop.


----------



## Thunderplains

Been following this thread.. Waiting.. I see it started almost 3 years ago..
Is this really going to be a product?


----------



## Lash

Yeah, I first heard about the MS-8 in High School, now that I'm retired I have no use for it.


----------



## 14642

I'm not surprised by the skepticism of many here...after all, it's taken us 7 years to get this far. I am suprised by the arrogance of some of the junior members here, though. 

Yes, it's going to be a product. As I wrote the last time, we're testing use cases and putting the final tweaks on the hardware--ESD testing, eliminating clicks and pops, etc. Every time i'm in the lab testing more test cases (every configuration has to be checked and there are 4 of us doing that) I'm amazed by how well the autotune works. 

I'm also afraid that the product makes making cars sound great so easy that many of the enthusiasts here for whom the installation and the tuning are the end rather than the means may not have any fun with it. There's no mystery--no need for endless tweaking of crossover points, trying to calibrate PC test gear so you'll be able to make accurate measurements, no need for an arguement about whether graphic or parametric EQ is better, no question about the merits of rear speakers or a center channel, no connection compatibility headaches, no expensive cables to buy and no trunk full of amplifiers is necessary unless you want the car to play loudly. 

For what it's worth, I've been making a list of all the folks who are or have been at Harman and who have been involved in the project and there are now more than 40. This has been a huge project with many contributors.


----------



## MaXaZoR

Why not just release it and have your buyers test it like Audison did for the BitOne....that clearly worked for them


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm not surprised by the skepticism of many here...after all, it's taken us 7 years to get this far. I am suprised by the arrogance of some of the junior members here, though.
> 
> Yes, it's going to be a product. As I wrote the last time, we're testing use cases and *putting the final tweaks on the hardware*--ESD testing, eliminating clicks and pops, etc. Every time i'm in the lab testing more test cases (every configuration has to be checked and there are 4 of us doing that) I'm amazed by how well the autotune works.
> 
> I'm also afraid that the product makes making cars sound great so easy that many of the enthusiasts here for whom the installation and the tuning are the end rather than the means may not have any fun with it. There's no mystery--no need for endless tweaking of crossover points, trying to calibrate PC test gear so you'll be able to make accurate measurements, no need for an arguement about whether graphic or parametric EQ is better, no question about the merits of rear speakers or a center channel, no connection compatibility headaches, no expensive cables to buy and no trunk full of amplifiers is necessary unless you want the car to play loudly.
> 
> For what it's worth, I've been making a list of all the folks who are or have been at Harman and who have been involved in the project and there are now more than 40. This has been a huge project with many contributors.


Will the digital input be Toslink, Coax, or both?


----------



## Lanson

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm not surprised by the skepticism of many here...after all, it's taken us 7 years to get this far. I am suprised by the arrogance of some of the junior members here, though.
> 
> Yes, it's going to be a product. As I wrote the last time, we're testing use cases and putting the final tweaks on the hardware--ESD testing, eliminating clicks and pops, etc. Every time i'm in the lab testing more test cases (every configuration has to be checked and there are 4 of us doing that) I'm amazed by how well the autotune works.
> 
> I'm also afraid that the product makes making cars sound great so easy that many of the enthusiasts here for whom the installation and the tuning are the end rather than the means may not have any fun with it. There's no mystery--no need for endless tweaking of crossover points, trying to calibrate PC test gear so you'll be able to make accurate measurements, no need for an arguement about whether graphic or parametric EQ is better, no question about the merits of rear speakers or a center channel, no connection compatibility headaches, no expensive cables to buy and no trunk full of amplifiers is necessary unless you want the car to play loudly.
> 
> For what it's worth, I've been making a list of all the folks who are or have been at Harman and who have been involved in the project and there are now more than 40. This has been a huge project with many contributors.



I know I've said it years ago, but its still true... as soon as this thing is available, I am a buyer. 3sixty.2's are great and all but they lack a certain _something_ and they introduce a certain _something else _(that would be hiss.) I am so ready for a change that I would camp out by the Harmon Int'l offices for a day or so if it meant I would be one of the first ones to get one.


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> Will the digital input be Toslink, Coax, or both?


I^2C--if you have an adapter


----------



## n_olympios

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I^2C--if you have an adapter


Ooh I love 80's tech talk.


----------



## t3sn4f2

n_olympios said:


> Ooh I love 80's tech talk.


I²S - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The USB DAC/Receiver

The γ1 Modular Miniature DAC


----------



## ItalynStylion

fourthmeal said:


> I know I've said it years ago, but its still true... as soon as this thing is available, I am a buyer. 3sixty.2's are great and all but they lack a certain _something_ and they introduce a certain _something else _(that would be hiss.) I am so ready for a change that I would camp out by the Harmon Int'l offices for a day or so if it meant I would be one of the first ones to get one.


Yep...me too, I'd have cash in hand WAITING for this thing.


----------



## vinny

eclipse_DYN said:


> Indeed, any updates there Andy?





ItalynStylion said:


> Yep...me too, I'd have cash in hand WAITING for this thing.


From what I am told the first production unit from JBL is being dispatched to India! India? Why?  It must be a joke.

Dont tell me someone who got a $2500 car (see link below) can afford an MS-8! 
Tata Nano - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Oh, that must be why I got an email from Online Customer Support asking me for a release date last week.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm not surprised by the skepticism of many here...after all, it's taken us 7 years to get this far. I am suprised by the arrogance of some of the junior members here, though.
> 
> For what it's worth, I've been making a list of all the folks who are or have been at Harman and who have been involved in the project and there are now more than 40. This has been a huge project with many contributors.


Andy, we thank you for your candid contributions here. I have used the RF 360.2 and Alpine 650 and both are found wanting for different reasons. This is one reason the wait for the MS-8 has been so frustrating for most of us - there is no clear alternate for those of us who like to fuss with the settings.

The MS-8 has been the butt of many a joke on this thread, not all the jokes were in good taste though. Still, Andy, you could have left in a huff or just stopped contributing but you did not and, for that, we are glad. 

Now that "Online Customer Support" is asking you the same question we have been asking for the past 2 years, can we have a clear answer? Please?

There is a demo on the MS-8 here (after the Mustang system).
YouTube - T3 visits the Harman Galaxy at IFA - part 3


----------



## t3sn4f2

I don't understand why people keep asking "when" if he already said many times that you will know something as soon as he does. What's the point of continuing to ask? 

If he doesn't know, _you aren't going to get an answer_. If he knows something (not saying he does) and doesn't want to say anything, _you aren't going to get an answer_.


----------



## 14642

vinny said:


> From what I am told the first production unit from JBL is being dispatched to India! India? Why?  It must be a joke.
> 
> Dont tell me someone who got a $2500 car (see link below) can afford an MS-8!
> Tata Nano - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


No, we're sending a preproduction unit to India for a demo car for a show in January. I get the first production unit.


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> I don't understand why people keep asking "when" if he already said many times that you will know something as soon as he does. What's the point of continuing to ask?


As I've said before, as soon as we have production scheduled, I'll provide a date when we'll be shipping them. In order to schedule production, all software and hardware issues have to be resolved and all bugs have to be closed. We're getting closer.

Yesterday we cleared all speaker-system use cases--there are 48 possiblespeaker configurations and all of them work and sound great. 

What's left? We have to wrap up EMC and ESD testing and apply any corrective action required. Much of that has been done. Then we do a final preproduction run, run those throught a battery of automated tests and then we schedule production.

Thanks for being patient.


----------



## subwoofery

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> What's left? We have to wrap up EMC and ESD testing and apply any corrective action required. Much of that has been done. Then we do a final preproduction run, run those throught a battery of automated tests and then we schedule production.
> 
> Thanks for being patient.


That means we'll be able to get the product in something like 3-4 months? 

Kelvin


----------



## vinny

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> What's left? We have to wrap up EMC and ESD testing and apply any corrective action required. Thanks for being patient.


What is EMC and ESD? 

Andy, it is you who has been patient with all of us over the past 2 years. We are just all fussy audiophiles and are used to waiting for exotic products to come out.

Given that the MS-8 is a flagship product are there any plans for a 5 channel (front, rear and sub) MS-5? Maybe one with only 8 or 16 possible speaker configurations. Sorry if I jumped the gun again.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, we're sending a preproduction unit to India for a demo car for a show in January. I get the first production unit.


Sorry about that. As you know the internet makes the world a terribly small place so when an installer in Delhi lets out that the MS-8 is headed there we wonder; especially guys like us who have been following this product here and other forums (carsound.com etc..) since the news first broke.


----------



## 14642

EMC is electromagnetic compatibility--basically, our unit can't emit a bunch of noise that might interfere with other devices.

ESD is Electrostatic Discharge--if you drive around in a pair of wool sock in Wisconsin in January and touch the unit, thereby zapping it with 15kV (like touching a lamp at Grandma's house during Christmas break), the unit can't blow up.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Since most of the "building" is done and what's left is just software tweaks...do we have a projected price?


----------



## invinsible

I have one important reason now to be in Delhi in Jan at the show for the sure


----------



## Fast1one

I think I would purchase one depending on the price. Every time this thread is updated I get exited


----------



## ehkewley

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> As I've said before, as soon as we have production scheduled, I'll provide a date when we'll be shipping them. In order to schedule production, all software and hardware issues have to be resolved and all bugs have to be closed. We're getting closer.
> 
> Yesterday we cleared all speaker-system use cases--there are 48 possiblespeaker configurations and all of them work and sound great.
> 
> What's left? We have to wrap up EMC and ESD testing and apply any corrective action required. Much of that has been done. Then we do a final preproduction run, run those throught a battery of automated tests and then we schedule production.
> 
> Thanks for being patient.


How much of this testing involves coming up with new test scenarios/ideas/cases? Have you been able to carry over much from other products or is this mostly charting new territory?


----------



## ItalynStylion

Andy, hopefully this hasn't been asked already. When using the auto tune feature how do you set your gains? Normally you'd set the output of the headunit to full tilt (just before clipping) and then tune the gains to match. However, it's clear to me that the level matching between channels will be done by the MS8. So where do you start with the gains?

Also, is the computer software going to be Windows 7 compatible?


----------



## t3sn4f2

ItalynStylion said:


> Andy, hopefully this hasn't been asked already. When using the auto tune feature how do you set your gains? Normally you'd set the output of the headunit to full tilt (just before clipping) and then tune the gains to match. However, it's clear to me that the level matching between channels will be done by the MS8. So where do you start with the gains?
> 
> Also, is the computer software going to be Windows 7 compatible?


Which software?


----------



## ItalynStylion

t3sn4f2 said:


> Which software?


Is there going to be a computer interface or is everything going to be done by the small display?


----------



## t3sn4f2

ItalynStylion said:


> Is there going to be a computer interface or is everything going to be done by the small display?


Nope, only through the display and remote. Computer would be for updates iirc.


----------



## fastlane

This sure would make a nice stocking stuffer Andy.


----------



## 14642

ehkewley said:


> How much of this testing involves coming up with new test scenarios/ideas/cases? Have you been able to carry over much from other products or is this mostly charting new territory?


I'm not sure I completely understand the question. MS-8 will support 50 different speakaers system configurations and that's what I've been testing. Of course, the input un-eq will flatten just about any configuration that you can throw at it, so long as the combination of all of the inputs is within about 40dB of flat response from 20-20k. I haven't measured the electrical output from any system, factory or aftermarket, that didn't fit this window. If a case exists that doesn't, it isn't a deal killer, because the acoustic EQ will fix the rest.


----------



## 14642

ItalynStylion said:


> Andy, hopefully this hasn't been asked already. When using the auto tune feature how do you set your gains? Normally you'd set the output of the headunit to full tilt (just before clipping) and then tune the gains to match. However, it's clear to me that the level matching between channels will be done by the MS8. So where do you start with the gains?
> 
> Also, is the computer software going to be Windows 7 compatible?


 
The MS-8 setup will help to determine the maximum useable output form the head and since the MS-8 (measured without EQ) is unity gain on the RCA's, you'd simply put in a test tone, plug the head into the amps directly, set the gains conventionally on the amps, plug MS-8 back in and go on with the tuning.


----------



## 14642

PC program is a simple downloader that runs as an exe. The MS-8 firmware would be downloaded as a binary file.


----------



## Lanson

Triple Damn! 

<---- Fistful of money for this thing


----------



## fastlane

Maybe I missed it in the last 44 or so pages, but can anyone give an app MRP on this thing? I've been looking at picking up a B1, but have been holding out hearing this is right around the corner. However if this is something that's going to retail for 2,000 I'll pass.


----------



## kkant

fastlane said:


> Maybe I missed it in the last 44 or so pages, but can anyone give an app MRP on this thing? I've been looking at picking up a B1, but have been holding out hearing this is right around the corner. However if this is something that's going to retail for 2,000 I'll pass.


Forget the B1. Wait for the MS8. You'll almost certainly be glad you did. The level of "almost certainty" here is approaching the level of certainty that there is no Santa Claus.

As far as price, the number I remember was $800. That was a long while ago, so it might have changed.


----------



## fastlane

kkant said:


> Forget the B1. Wait for the MS8. You'll almost certainly be glad you did. The level of "almost certainty" here is approaching the level of certainty that there is no Santa Claus.
> 
> As far as price, the number I remember was $800. That was a long while ago, so it might have changed.


If this has a street price for under a grand, I'll be all over it.


----------



## vinny

Andy, After the MS-8 does it's 'thing' can we fine tune the settings to say bring the location of the bass a bit more upfront or get the speakers to be a bit more laid back.

Most of us have very specific ideas of what type of sound we like. I assume that those of us who are willing to spend $800 (assumed price of MS-8) on a processor will want features that far outclass the existing products B1, H650, 360.2 etc..

Ideally it would be nice if the user could make a set of 4-6 settings for the different types of music they listen to - baroque for example may require a very different set of settings compared to rock.


----------



## left channel

vinny said:


> Andy, After the MS-8 does it's 'thing' can we fine tune the settings to say bring the location of the bass a bit more upfront or get the speakers to be a bit more laid back.
> 
> Most of us have very specific ideas of what type of sound we like. I assume that those of us who are willing to spend $800 (assumed price of MS-8) on a processor will want features that far outclass the existing products B1, H650, 360.2 etc..
> 
> Ideally it would be nice if the user could make a set of 4-6 settings for the different types of music they listen to - baroque for example may require a very different set of settings compared to rock.


I think it was posted here that you will have full control of eq, crossover, time alignment and such including stored user settings after the auto tune is done.


----------



## 02bluesuperroo

OMG, this thing still isn't out?

Sorry, haven't been here in a couple years... this thing was "about to drop" then as well. 

Looks like a great piece if it ever comes out....


----------



## ItalynStylion

Speaking of "looks" it hit me yesterday that you said basically everything is done except for the software. So, since you get to play with this thing everyday; mind showing us what it looks like in it's final form? It would really help us gauge if it's something that will geometrically work with our systems.

(some of us are big time planners)


----------



## Lash

That's how it looked November 12, 2007.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Lash said:


> That's how it looked November 12, 2007.


I don't know if you noticed; but it's 2009 now. I'd be very surprised if it really still looked like that. That screen would be horrible IMO. Where would that go?


----------



## subwoofery

ItalynStylion said:


> That screen would be horrible IMO. Where would that go?


The glovebox would be a good choice  

Kelvin


----------



## Lash

ItalynStylion said:


> I don't know if you noticed; but it's 2009 now. I'd be very surprised if it really still looked like that. That screen would be horrible IMO. Where would that go?


I'm quite aware of the year, and that's why I dated the photo.
I take no responsibility for how it looked then or now, I'm not involved with the product in any way.

Learn to use a search engine ItalynStylion, then you can post your own photos. :dead_horse:


----------



## WAwatchnut

Lash said:


> I'm quite aware of the year, and that's why I dated the photo.
> I take no responsibility for how it looked then or now, I'm not involved with the product in any way.
> 
> Learn to use a search engine ItalynStylion, then you can post your own photos. :dead_horse:


Yeah - but he did ask if Andy could show it in "it's final form"... so your post really wasn't helpful. Although you might think ItalynStylion needs to learn how to use a search engine, maybe you could read the posts a little closer...


----------



## Lash

WAwatchnut said:


> Yeah - but he did ask if Andy could show it in "it's final form"... so your post really wasn't helpful. Although you might think ItalynStylion needs to learn how to use a search engine, maybe you could read the posts a little closer...


Correct, he asked _Andy_ to show it in it's final form. 
I didn't sign my post Andy.
Again I have nothing to do with Andy or the product.
I dated the photo to show it was not the "final form", but how JBL claimed it looked back in 2007.

So perhaps my post wasn't "helpful" to ItalynStylion, it needn't be, it was on topic. 

Maybe you should take your own advice, read each post closely, and then try to comprehend what you've read. oke:


----------



## n_olympios

I think you'll find a post from Andy in this very thread where he mentioned that the main unit design has been changed to a more conventional one (IIRC).


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well...the display and the remote will look like that, but the main unit won't. We've revised the design to look like a small family of products that will be the new "MS-Series". I like the new design better, but I don't have any pictures to post.


^^^^


----------



## 14642

Here's a new photo. The Amp/Processor is the same size (actually a little smaller) than the old one posted above.


----------



## 14642

And here are some "spy shots" of some other stuff that's in the works.


----------



## MLS

Looks way better than what you had before! Nice!


----------



## trevordj

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Here's a new photo. The Amp/Processor is the same size (actually a little smaller) than the old one posted above.


Now that is cool! Can't wait!


----------



## gymrat2005

Looks great Andy, thanks for sharing!


----------



## fastlane

Dang, I wish you wouldn't have posted those pic's Andy. Now I'm really jonesing to get my hands on that thing. Suppose you want to lend me the screen for a few days so I can mark up a fiberglass mold for it in my center console? 

Andy, I don't suppose the processor would happen to be the same size as JBL's gti crossover would it? I'd love to custom mount both these.


----------



## WAwatchnut

Lash said:


> So perhaps my post wasn't "helpful" to ItalynStylion, it needn't be, it was on topic.
> 
> Maybe you should take your own advice, read each post closely, and then try to comprehend what you've read. oke:


I fully comprehended what was posted, and what occurred. But you do realize that: 1) someone asked for a new pic from a company insider for a product that wasn't released; 2) you posted an old pic that many (if not most) people have already seen; 3) the poster then said it was an old pic, and he'd be surprised if the current version looked like that still; and then 4) you told the poster that maybe he should learn how to use a search engine so he could have found the pics himself - Even though the pic you showed (and found by a search engine I'm sure) wasn't a current pic (like he was asking for).

I guess you think that providing a 3 year old pic in response to someone asking for a current picture, and then telling them that they need to learn how to use a seach engine so they could find pics themselves (*even though they weren't asking for 3 year old pics!*) was somehow on topic. 

No big deal that you posted an old pic...with or without the disclaimers... just seems strange that you would then follow up by telling someone they don't know how to use a search engine, when NO seach engine could find new pics.

But to each his own. I guess I'm just not able to comprehend how your greater intelligence works... :blush:


----------



## fastlane

Point taken guys. Let's keep this thread on track. 



WAwatchnut said:


> I fully comprehended what was posted, and what occurred.
> 
> I guess you think that providing a 3 year old pic in response to someone asking for a current picture, and then telling them that they need to learn how to use a seach engine so they could find pics themselves (*even though they weren't asking for 3 year old pics!*) was somehow on topic.
> 
> No big deal that you posted an old pic... just seems strange that you would then follow up by telling someone they don't know how to use a search engine, when NO seach engine could find new pics.
> 
> But to each his own. I guess I'm just not able to comprehend how your greater intelligence works... :blush:


----------



## WAwatchnut

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> And here are some "spy shots" of some other stuff that's in the works.


Don't you think teasing us with the MS-8 was enough...?! 

Thanks for the spy shots Andy! Nice to see some interesting stuff is always in the works.


----------



## CobraVin

exact sizes of the monitor and processor Andy?, i want to know exactly where i can mount them, also does the screen un mount from the base to mount it flush?, thanks


----------



## ItalynStylion

Wow.....legit pics.....now aren't you glad that I asked?


----------



## VP Electricity

Way to leverage that Drive and Play display R+D 

Nice pics. Encouraging. Like the spy shot aesthetic.


----------



## rawdawg

That taped up thing looks like a 7.1 surround sound Multi-effects Guitar Pedal. Totally Awesome!!!

To everyone,

I'm interested in this 7.1 stuff but I have a 2006 Civic Coupe and the layout of the dash is weird enough to discourage plopping a speaker in the center. But I could yank out the head unit and stick a speaker in its place. Every center I've ever seen was firing upwards into the windshield. I even recall Andy W. mentioning it somewhere in this thread. Would have a center channel firing forwards be okay as detailed in the pic below? Would it's very short pathlength be detrimental?


----------



## michaelsil1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Here's a new photo. The Amp/Processor is the same size (actually a little smaller) than the old one posted above.


Andy,

What are the headphones for?


----------



## vinny

ItalynStylion said:


> That screen would be horrible IMO. Where would that go?





VP Electricity said:


> Way to leverage that Drive and Play display R+D .


The 2009 version still has a screen. This way the unit can be tuned while it is hidden. Any reason the screen would need to be used regularly Andy? Will it store settings incase the car battery is disconnected temproarily?



rawdawg said:


> But I could yank out the head unit and stick a speaker in its place.


If you remove the HU what will you use for a source?


----------



## t3sn4f2

michaelsil1 said:


> Andy,
> 
> What are the headphones for?


Binaural auto tune mic.


----------



## michaelsil1

t3sn4f2 said:


> Binaural auto tune mic.


That's a Microphone? :surprised:

So I'm guessing we sit in the car while it Auto tunes.


----------



## t3sn4f2

michaelsil1 said:


> That's a Microphone? :surprised:
> 
> So I'm guessing we sit in the car while it Auto tunes.


Yeah and you turn your head so that it can measure from other angles as well.


----------



## ItalynStylion

t3sn4f2 said:


> Yeah and you turn your head so that it can measure from other angles as well.


Yep...So freakin cool!


----------



## BigRed

rawdawg, it will work


----------



## fastlane

t3sn4f2 said:


> Yeah and you turn your head so that it can measure from other angles as well.


As if my wife doesn't already think I'm crazy enough. Wait till I'm sitting in my truck with headphone's on.


----------



## Technic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Here's a new photo. The *Amp*/Processor is the same size (actually a little smaller) than the old one posted above.


Will this family of "MS" devices include the processor _without_ the amp?


----------



## ItalynStylion

^Good question. I don't need the amp and I don't think most people will either if it's only 20watts pc


----------



## rawdawg

vinny said:


> If you remove the HU what will you use for a source?


I was thinking to relocate the HU to one of the compartments below.

20 watts sounds perfect for Horns, Ribbons, etc...

Big Red, now I'm thinking maybe I could shimmy shake a horn in that center location so your significant other will think I'm more real than you.


----------



## Lanson

rawdawg said:


> I was thinking to relocate the HU to one of the compartments below.
> 
> 20 watts sounds perfect for Horns, Ribbons, etc...
> 
> Big Red, now I'm thinking maybe I could shimmy shake a horn in that center location so your significant other will think I'm more real than you.


20W as rear fill, and possibly center channel as well...


----------



## subwoofery

For my next project, I'll have 40rms @ 8ohm available to a 110dB/1m efficient horns, 20rms to the rear fill won't be enough. 
I'm scared that the MS-8 will lower the horns output to match the rear fill's - defeating the purpose of using horns... 

Kelvin


----------



## Pitbully

Has anything changed in what it can/cant do? I wouldnt mind an up-to-date recap of its capabilities


----------



## tornaido_3927

Pitbully said:


> Has anything changed in what it can/cant do? I wouldnt mind an up-to-date recap of its capabilities


And maybe a list of quick specs as well if possible??


----------



## dkh

Bumping this thread as I dumped my ODR setup so I'm ready when this hits the shops


----------



## m3gunner

Another 2 week bump...


----------



## rommelrommel

Andy, any input on whether rear fill gives good results with the MS8 so far?

Also, does the center channel get sent much low frequency information? Mainly wondering if it could power a 3" full range driver appropriately. 

I don't think I'm willing to hack my factory system up for anything other than the MS8 to be honest, I think I'll just live with factory sound for now.

I have a 300C SRT8 with nav and bluetooth which I want to keep, I haven't found out where the nav/bluetooth gets introduced but I'm assuming it must be in either before or at the factory amp... Also totally unwilling to mod the interior in any visible way so I have two ideas:

Three Tang Band 3" in the dash as L/C/R + midbass in the front doors, and sub. The first 5 channels would be amp'd by my Blade SE6175 leaving one channel dead.

Alternate to that would be the same setup, + some rear fill, and power the center channel off of the MS8.


----------



## 60ndown

t3sn4f2 said:


> Yeah and you turn your head so that it can measure from other angles as well.







fastlane said:


> As if my wife doesn't already think I'm crazy enough. Wait till I'm sitting in my truck with headphone's on slowly looking from right to left and then repeat for 5 minutes.


fixored


----------



## 14642

rommelrommel said:


> Andy, any input on whether rear fill gives good results with the MS8 so far?
> 
> Also, does the center channel get sent much low frequency information? Mainly wondering if it could power a 3" full range driver appropriately.
> 
> I don't think I'm willing to hack my factory system up for anything other than the MS8 to be honest, I think I'll just live with factory sound for now.
> 
> I have a 300C SRT8 with nav and bluetooth which I want to keep, I haven't found out where the nav/bluetooth gets introduced but I'm assuming it must be in either before or at the factory amp... Also totally unwilling to mod the interior in any visible way so I have two ideas:
> 
> Three Tang Band 3" in the dash as L/C/R + midbass in the front doors, and sub. The first 5 channels would be amp'd by my Blade SE6175 leaving one channel dead.
> 
> Alternate to that would be the same setup, + some rear fill, and power the center channel off of the MS8.


This will work fine. MS-8 includes a pretty cool bass management system that will provide good performance with a 3" center. The center does get plenty of information, though. Use the MS-8 for the rear fill and the amp for the center.


----------



## lycan

i'm subscribed


----------



## 14642

OK. So here's the update.

We've confirmed that the automatic acoustic EQ works with all supported use cases--and it sounds great. We've tweaked the target to provide a little more bass than I like, but the user menu includes a control to reduce and increase it.

We've added a "bypass input setup" to the setup menu, so if you have an aftermarket radio, you can bypass the Un-EQ part of the algorithm if you have a full-range output from the radio.

We've also discovered, in all of this testing, that CD transports and pickups are sometimes good and sometimes not so good. The algorithm that detects left and right and picks the impulse peaks to determine polarity and factory time alignment works PERFECTLY, so long as the CD player clocks at 44.1k. That might seem like a "given", but in reality, it isn't. We've discovered inexpensive and expensive aftermarket decks that don't clock at that rate and even some high-end OE systems that are off by enough to wreak havoc with signal correlation at high frequencies. 

We're hot on the trail of a fix for that and should have some working code that eliminates that problem in short order. 

What we're most interested in is a simple installation procedure that doesn't require any user troubleshooting, and in the interest of that objective, we've eliminated the audio-sensing turn-on, and have opted for a REM IN terminal that should be connected to the head unit's REM OUT connection. If that doesn't exist, then REM IN must be connected to the car's ACC terminal. MS-8's REM out terminal should turn on ALL the other devices in the car except the radio. For OE systems that don't include a REM wire for amp turn-on (some CAN-BUS and MOST systems), connecting MS-8 to ACC will suffice. We'll include a turn-off delay that's programmable to help eliminate any audible pops.

At this point, it's full-steam ahead.


----------



## michaelsil1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> OK. So here's the update.
> 
> We've tweaked the target to provide a little more bass than I like, but the user menu includes a control to reduce and increase it.


This should make the the current Imprint users very jealous.


----------



## kkant

Kick ass. Keeps getting better and better. Thanks for the update, Andy.


----------



## kkant

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> We've discovered inexpensive and expensive aftermarket decks that don't clock at that rate and even some high-end OE systems that are off by enough to wreak havoc with signal correlation at high frequencies.


Presumably it won't matter once you get your fix in, but any chance you can name names?


----------



## 14642

The latest one is the base Lexus IS 250.


----------



## kkant

That sucks.  How about the Lexus LS 460?


----------



## 14642

Don't know about that one. The fact that the clock is off by a percent or so probably isn't audible in the factory system, but MS-8 doesn't like it. That's what the fix is for.


----------



## kkant

I hear ya. Well, as long as there's a fix.


----------



## Nitin

sorry for the slight off topic - Andy your PM box is totally full and isnt accepting messages - any chance that you could clear some of your already replied to pm's


----------



## fastlane

michaelsil1 said:


> This should make the the current Imprint users very jealous.


Nope. Just aware enough to know we're upgrading.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Don't know about that one. The fact that the clock is off by a percent or so probably isn't audible in the factory system, but MS-8 doesn't like it. That's what the fix is for.


Andy, would a carpc or PMP be immune to these timing issues? If not, would the fix take care of any issues with those types of devices as well?


----------



## audiguy

subscribed


----------



## kkant

t3sn4f2 said:


> Andy, would a carpc or PMP be immune to these timing issues? If not, would the fix take care of any issues with those types of devices as well?


Damn that's a good question. Maybe it would depend on the dac? I wonder if the clocks on these computer outputs are software controlled.


----------



## rommelrommel

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> This will work fine. MS-8 includes a pretty cool bass management system that will provide good performance with a 3" center. The center does get plenty of information, though. Use the MS-8 for the rear fill and the amp for the center.


Thanks for the response.

Would you say rear fill is overall a positive or negative to stereo SQ when using the MS-8? 

I've never found it to be helpful, but with this level of auto processing I'm wondering.


----------



## t3sn4f2

rommelrommel said:


> Thanks for the response.
> 
> Would you say rear fill is overall a positive or negative to stereo SQ when using the MS-8?
> 
> I've never found it to be helpful, but with this level of auto processing I'm wondering.


IIRC, Andy told me once that if the music needs the rear speakers it will make a difference. If not, they won't do anything.


----------



## Fast1one

This is getting good. VERY good... As always thank you Andy for your superb updates.


----------



## Lanson

I'll just be happy to get rid of the noise my 3sixty.2 produces. HISSSSSSSSSSSS


----------



## 14642

I find rear speakers to be an important part of a system that sounds believable, so long as there's some processing to make them something other than front speakers mounted in back.---Hmmm...wait...the processing currently use makes them front speakers, mounted in back...and some other wacky stuff.

Anyway, yes, use rear speakers. No need to go nuts, though. They shouldn't play anything below 100Hz.


----------



## trevordj

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I find rear speakers to be an important part of a system that sounds believable, so long as there's some processing to make them something other than front speakers mounted in back.---Hmmm...wait...the processing currently use makes them front speakers, mounted in back...and some other wacky stuff.
> 
> Anyway, yes, use rear speakers. No need to go nuts, though. They shouldn't play anything below 100Hz.


Interesting... Are you saying that the MS-8 software algorithms will not send any information below 100Hz to the rears or are you just stating that you have empirically found the front stage suffers if you install speakers in the rear that play below 100Hz? It sounds like the Dyn System 242 GT I picked up to go in the rear of my Volvo may be overkill


----------



## ben_lesmana

Andy, 

Why would it matter if a transport clock at 44.1khz or other values in re. to the MS-8? 

Care to elaborate more?

Regards,
Ben


----------



## kkant

trevordj said:


> It sounds like the Dyn System 242 GT I picked up to go in the rear of my Volvo may be overkill


Dyn 242 at 100 Hz? No worries, that ain't overkill.


----------



## rommelrommel

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I find rear speakers to be an important part of a system that sounds believable, so long as there's some processing to make them something other than front speakers mounted in back.---Hmmm...wait...the processing currently use makes them front speakers, mounted in back...and some other wacky stuff.
> 
> Anyway, yes, use rear speakers. No need to go nuts, though. They shouldn't play anything below 100Hz.


Cool... I think that's why I've never found rear speakers very believable. 

Anyone have a good suggestion for a decent 6" or 5"& tweet that will sound alright with 20wpc? Maybe the PPI 335cs, although they are a little inefficent. 

EDIT **** ROFL, I'm a tool... I have a set of original focal polykevlar 5.25's... I think those would work lol. 

Anyone have a Blade SE1175 to sell lol?


----------



## ItalynStylion

trevordj said:


> Interesting... Are you saying that the MS-8 software algorithms will not send any information below 100Hz to the rears or are you just stating that you have empirically found the front stage suffers if you install speakers in the rear that play below 100Hz? It sounds like the Dyn System 242 GT I picked up to go in the rear of my Volvo may be overkill


I'd imagine that he's saying that anything below 100hz could be felt and would thus bring in another component that would make it easier to decipher that sound was coming from the rear.

Not sure though.


----------



## 14642

ben_lesmana said:


> Andy,
> 
> Why would it matter if a transport clock at 44.1khz or other values in re. to the MS-8?
> 
> Care to elaborate more?
> 
> Regards,
> Ben


It only matters for UN-EQ during setup. The signal on the setup CD is an MLS. MS-8 "knows" the sequence on the disc and the algorithm is triggered by a pattern of silence, then noise in one channel, then noise in the other channel. In order for it to figure out precisely what the difference is between what it would see if the response was flat between 20Hz-20kHz and what the response really looks like, it has to see the right number of samples. If the clock is wrong and the sample rate isn't 44.1k, the correct number of samples doesn't appear. MS-8 freaks out and part of the algorithm gets confused. We'll have that fixed soon.

Also, I suggest nothing below 100Hz in the rear for Logic7, because the rear channel polarity is part of how signal is steered to the rear. When the signal is steered to the front, the rear channels aren't in phase. Keeping the bass out of the rear channels preserves the placement of mono low frequency signals in the front center. The highpass filter frequency for the rears can be chosen at a frequency below 100Hz, for those who won't use L7.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> *It only matters for UN-EQ during setup. *The signal on the setup CD is an MLS. MS-8 "knows" the sequence on the disc and the algorithm is triggered by a pattern of silence, then noise in one channel, then noise in the other channel. In order for it to figure out precisely what the difference is between what it would see if the response was flat between 20Hz-20kHz and what the response really looks like, it has to see the right number of samples. If the clock is wrong and the sample rate isn't 44.1k, the correct number of samples doesn't appear. MS-8 freaks out and part of the algorithm gets confused. We'll have that fixed soon.
> 
> Also, I suggest nothing below 100Hz in the rear for Logic7, because the rear channel polarity is part of how signal is steered to the rear. When the signal is steered to the front, the rear channels aren't in phase. Keeping the bass out of the rear channels preserves the placement of mono low frequency signals in the front center. The highpass filter frequency for the rears can be chosen at a frequency below 100Hz, for those who won't use L7.


Well, that answers _my_ question.


----------



## Technic

In a BMW with the OEM Logic7 system, what kind of improvement this MS-8 Logic7 will make just by itself? I know that the demo 3-Series of more than 3 years ago had the OEM Logic7 with the MS-8, but that was a combo of some of the OEM speakers still driven by the OEM amp and some by aftermarket amps in addition to new speakers.


----------



## Pitbully

For those with Car Pcs XP I believe runs CDs at 44.1k New versions dont so you have to force the settings. Vista runs it faster, I believe windows 7 does too. Someone can correct me if I am wrong


----------



## Ari

Andy: 

I couldn't find the post but I think you earlier recommended the front L/R be ran in active mode? I'm curious as to why not leave all the speakers with their respective passive crossovers and let the MS-8 do it's work? Shouldn't the algorithm compensate for any shortcomings of a passive setup vs. active? Or am I missing something?

How were the speakers configured in Gary's MS-8 BMW? I remembered reading he used stock drivers and added couple extra tweeters but I don't think it ever mentioned if each driver had it's own amplification. 

Also, where did Gary put the front tweeters? Sails, a-pillars, doors? The reason for my question is will it matter with the MS-8? Everyone seems to have their preference for tweeter placement -especially for active tuning- but does it really matter when the MS-8 does the majority of the tuning for a Logic 7 output? What's your stance on speaker placement as it relates to the MS-8? Thanks.


----------



## kkant

Ari said:


> I couldn't find the post but I think you earlier recommended the front L/R be ran in active mode? I'm curious as to why not leave all the speakers with their respective passive crossovers and let the MS-8 do it's work? Shouldn't the algorithm compensate for any shortcomings of a passive setup vs. active? Or am I missing something?


Sticking just to the passive/active part of your question: going active has other advantages than just the linear response curve. You can generally get steeper slopes with actives. On the high side that means the tweeter is further blocked from low freqs, so you can turn up the volume further without nonlinear distortion or blowing the tweeter. On the low side that means the woofer will play less of the higher freqs that induce nonlinear harmonics in the cone breakup range. 

MS8 can't fix nonlinear distortion (I believe), so you want to minimize that as much as possible.


----------



## 14642

I always suggest splitting up the channels in a three-way front speaker system--a pair of channels for the midbass and another pair for midrange and tweeter. If you'll use a 2-way in the front, then there's no need for that, unless you have the extra channels. 

The system in the BMW included all the stock speakers in their locations. We added tweeters to the rear doors and to the center channel. The tweeters in the rear probably aren't absolutely necessary, but the tweeter in the center channel is. All of those useda simple capacitor on the tweeter--nothing fancy. The rear and side speakers were run by separate channels of a 4-channel amplifier, but were fed with the side outputs of MS-8. Separating side and rear is nice, but we opted to use the under-seat subs as midbass on separate channels instead of doing a full 7.1. It worked great. Subwoofer is a pair of W12GTi woofers in a box in the trunk. 

We defeated the factory Logic7 in the dead unit's menu and used MS-8s L7. THey are tuned a little differently--mosty with regard to the level of the center channel and steering angle computation. I believe the MS-8 version is better for folks who are used to aftermarket systems. The primary goal of L7 in MS-8 is to provide a rock-solud center image in the CENTER of the dash and a sense of ambience (rear) depending on the recording. For those who find the center to be too "center", we've included a level control so you can it turn that down a bit.


----------



## Technic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I always suggest splitting up the channels in a three-way front speaker system--a pair of channels for the midbass and another pair for midrange and tweeter. If you'll use a 2-way in the front, then there's no need for that, unless you have the extra channels.
> 
> The system in the BMW included all the stock speakers in their locations. We added tweeters to the rear doors and to the center channel. The tweeters in the rear probably aren't absolutely necessary, but the tweeter in the center channel is. All of those useda simple capacitor on the tweeter--nothing fancy. The rear and side speakers were run by separate channels of a 4-channel amplifier, but were fed with the side outputs of MS-8. Separating side and rear is nice, but we opted to use the under-seat subs as midbass on separate channels instead of doing a full 7.1. It worked great. Subwoofer is a pair of W12GTi woofers in a box in the trunk.
> 
> We defeated the factory Logic7 in the dead unit's menu and used MS-8s L7. THey are tuned a little differently--mosty with regard to the level of the center channel and steering angle computation. *I believe the MS-8 version is better for folks who are used to aftermarket systems.* The primary goal of L7 in MS-8 is to provide a rock-solud center image in the CENTER of the dash and a sense of ambience (rear) depending on the recording. For those who find the center to be too "center", we've included a level control so you can it turn that down a bit.


Thanks... that's what I was expecting to read.


----------



## mmiller

please excuse my ignorance, I cannot find the time to read all this... when will this unit actually be available??


----------



## t3sn4f2

mmiller said:


> please excuse my ignorance, I cannot find the time to read all this... when will this unit actually be available??


No official word yet.


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I always suggest splitting up the channels in a three-way front speaker system--a pair of channels for the midbass and another pair for midrange and tweeter. If you'll use a 2-way in the front, then there's no need for that, unless you have the extra channels.
> 
> The system in the BMW included all the stock speakers in their locations. We added tweeters to the rear doors and to the center channel. The tweeters in the rear probably aren't absolutely necessary, but the tweeter in the center channel is. All of those useda simple capacitor on the tweeter--nothing fancy. The rear and side speakers were run by separate channels of a 4-channel amplifier, but were fed with the side outputs of MS-8. Separating side and rear is nice, but we opted to use the under-seat subs as midbass on separate channels instead of doing a full 7.1. It worked great. Subwoofer is a pair of W12GTi woofers in a box in the trunk.
> 
> ......



to get rear  and side, while keeping the 3-way front, we need 2 more channels ...
no plan to come out (hopefully at the same time of MS-8) with the MS-10 option ?


----------



## 14642

TPMS said:


> to get rear and side, while keeping the 3-way front, we need 2 more channels ...
> no plan to come out (hopefully at the same time of MS-8) with the MS-10 option ?


Use an additional amplifier with onboard crossover to drive the front speakers.


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Use an additional amplifier with onboard crossover to drive the front speakers.



what i wanted to say is that, maybe in 2006 when your project MS-8 was first presented maybe 8 channels were good, but 3+ years passed since then and nowadays we see premium systems with a lot more channels.

- B&O for Mercedes puts 11 channels
- NAIM for ContiGt puts 13.2 ch

... till as many as 16 of BURMESTER for Panamera !

Comfort - Panamera Turbo in Detail - Panamera Turbo - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG 


so, could it be the case to keep this MS-X thing up-to-date ...


----------



## 14642

My car is 24 channels. MS-8 won't cover every possible use case, but I'd be willing to bet that someone with a Mercedes or ContiGT might pony up an additional $200 for another amp.


----------



## AdamTaylor

GOD!!!!! 



COME OUT ALREADY


DAMN, THIS IS WORSE THAN WAITING ON A KIDNEY STONE TO PASS


----------



## SSSnake

Care to elaborate on the 24 channels (seems like a LOT).


----------



## 14642

SSSnake said:


> Care to elaborate on the 24 channels (seems like a LOT).


Sure--
3-way in the front doors...tweeter, 3" mid and dual-coil 6"
2-way center...tweeter and dual coil 6"
2-way in rear doors...tweeter and dual coil 6"
2-way in the rear deck...tweeter and 3"
2 10" woofers in the rear deck (IB).

Hmmm...that's 23 channels. I guess I have an extra unused channel somewhere. 
Everything but the subs are driven by 20-watt ICs.


----------



## SSSnake

7.1 setup I assume

20W/channel surprises me almost as much as the dual coil 6.5s

So the 6.5s see 40W?


----------



## macmovieman

Where did you mount the center channel?


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> My car is 24 channels. MS-8 won't cover every possible use case, but I'd be willing to bet that someone with a Mercedes or ContiGT might pony up an additional $200 for another amp.



I am really not short of amps but doing that way is like thinking of getting a stereo signal just splitting a mono one ..

as we still are in Wonderland Reign ...*10 channels coming out of processor*,*or MS-10 please *


----------



## 14642

TPMS said:


> I am really not short of amps but doing that way is like thinking of getting a stereo signal just splitting a mono one ..


No it isn't. It's simply deciding to do a full 7.1 and a bi-amped front. Serously, the audible difference between 7.1 and 5.1 is small.


----------



## lycan

Here's the way to think about the number of channels, in my view. The question is not "how many channels to I need?", but rather "how many _steered_ channels, or time-independent channels, do I need?". I suspect that 8 is plenty.

Between passive crossovers, and crossovers built into most amps, "more channels" are readily available ... especially because you won't need separate steering, or time-alignment, for all those different channels.


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No it isn't. It's simply deciding to do a full 7.1 and a bi-amped front. Serously, the audible difference between 7.1 and 5.1 is small.



... need that black box to see what's the difference 

I understand that you tried and you went for 5.1 with bi-amped front.
can you elaborate about that audible difference ?

thanks


----------



## TPMS

lycan said:


> Here's the way to think about the number of channels, in my view. The question is not "how many channels to I need?", but rather "how many _steered_ channels, or time-independent channels, do I need?". I suspect that 8 is plenty.
> 
> Between passive crossovers, and crossovers built into most amps, "more channels" are readily available ... especially because you won't need separate steering, or time-alignment, for all those different channels.


that's one more reason why I am confused reading Andy's preference for connecting a pair of steered channels to the front (where there isn't any apparent need for time-independence) instead of using that channel for having independence between Rear and Side ..


----------



## 14642

It's very simple. Left, Right and Center steering helps to minimize the need for generating a phantom image in the center, but it can only work for frequency ranges that are included in the L, R, and center. If you have a big midbass driver in the center and in the left and right, then time alignment of the midbass drivers is less important. If you'll use a smaller center speaker and depend on the left and right midbass drivers to generate a phantom center in those frequencies, then it will be helpful to be able to time align those speakers for a particular listening position. That's the reason that we opted to use the separate channels in Gary's BMW. The center speaker is only a 4" and left and right midbass are 8" speakers under the seats. It works great. Because the center speaker is small, the midbass image is better in the seat for which the optimization is selected, but the compromise between the front two seats was good enough to win IASCA. 

The cure for mystery is investigation. I've spent 25 years investigating this. If you'd like to benefit from those 25 years and additional technical contributions from real scientists who have turned the benefit of those years into a product that works, get an MS-8 when it comes out and just follow the instructions. If you'd prefer to figure out how and where to bury a bone through trial and error, rejecting the canon of knowledge that exists for humans who can read and share information, buy an MS-8 and throw away the installation manual and do a thousand experiments. Or...buy another processor and throw away the manual and do a thousand different experiments. MS-8 won't allow as many experiments as some of the others that don't include any automation, though. If installation and constant tweaking are the "end", then you may be happier with a car PC. If installation and tweaking are the means to the end, then MS-8 and its instruction manual will be the right product for you.


----------



## ibanzil

Any idea if the ms8 will have "house" curves built in? Was the curve the BMW used the same as the one you have mentioned using?

I've been telling some dealers that don't sell jbl about this thing and they are jeolous. I'm betting you guys will be picking up some business when people start demanding the ms8.


----------



## 14642

Yes, there's a house curve. It's the one I've posted on this forum a thousand times. once that's implemented, you can use a 31-band EQ to change it to suit your preference. 

Yes, it would be nice if we could acquire a few more dealers...


----------



## macmovieman

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> It's very simple. Left, Right and Center steering helps to minimize the need for generating a phantom image in the center, but it can only work for frequency ranges that are included in the L, R, and center. If you have a big midbass driver in the center and in the left and right, then time alignment of the midbass drivers is less important. If you'll use a smaller center speaker and depend on the left and right midbass drivers to generate a phantom center in those frequencies, then it will be helpful to be able to time align those speakers for a particular listening position. That's the reason that we opted to use the separate channels in Gary's BMW. The center speaker is only a 4" and left and right midbass are 8" speakers under the seats. It works great. Because the center speaker is small, the midbass image is better in the seat for which the optimization is selected, but the compromise between the front two seats was good enough to win IASCA.
> 
> The cure for mystery is investigation. I've spent 25 years investigating this. If you'd like to benefit from those 25 years and additional technical contributions from real scientists who have turned the benefit of those years into a product that works, get an MS-8 when it comes out and just follow the instructions. If you'd prefer to figure out how and where to bury a bone through trial and error, rejecting the canon of knowledge that exists for humans who can read and share information, buy an MS-8 and throw away the installation manual and do a thousand experiments. Or...buy another processor and throw away the manual and do a thousand different experiments. MS-8 won't allow as many experiments as some of the others that don't include any automation, though. If installation and constant tweaking are the "end", then you may be happier with a car PC. If installation and tweaking are the means to the end, then MS-8 and its instruction manual will be the right product for you.


I am getting ready to purchase an Audison Bit One next week, is this something that is better or will replace the Bit One? Any idea when it will be released?


----------



## t3sn4f2

macmovieman said:


> I am getting ready to purchase an Audison Bit One next week, is this something that is better or will replace the Bit One? Any idea when it will be released?


There's a ton of details on it here.


----------



## 14642

macmovieman said:


> I am getting ready to purchase an Audison Bit One next week, is this something that is better or will replace the Bit One? Any idea when it will be released?


Better? That's not for me to decide...it depends on your requirements. Different? Yes.


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> .... If installation and tweaking are the means to the end, then MS-8 and its instruction manual will be the right product for you.


thanks, will see what happens with my 4" center and 6.5" mid-bass ..

something is saying me that the Instruction Manual is ready printed, already  
a pdf downloading link would be enough, just to keep ahead ..

btw, do you know if the ms-8 will be released for sale in all countries on the same time ?


----------



## 14642

Maunal isn't done yet and yes, they should be released at the same time.


----------



## t3sn4f2

TPMS said:


> thanks, will see what happens with my 4" center and 6.5" mid-bass ..
> 
> something is saying me that the Instruction Manual is ready printed, already
> *a pdf downloading link would be enough*, just to keep ahead ..
> 
> btw, do you know if the ms-8 will be released for sale in all countries on the same time ?


Maybe as a late Christmas present. :santa2:


----------



## macmovieman

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Better? That's not for me to decide...it depends on your requirements. Different? Yes.


There are 49 pages now. What are the main differences? Any idea on cost or when it might come out? I hate sounding like a newbie but this would really save me a ton of time reading.


----------



## TPMS

t3sn4f2 said:


> Maybe as a late Christmas present. :santa2:



everybody is given a second chance 
... on 6th January for "Befana" to come


----------



## ibanzil

Release date questions like that will put you on the ms8 blacklist...now you will never get one.


----------



## azngotskills

macmovieman said:


> There are 49 pages now. What are the main differences? Any idea on cost or when it might come out? I hate sounding like a newbie but this would really save me a ton of time reading.


*read it,* you wont learn anything by spoon feeding.....not just what it does but also on system configurations and theory behind it


----------



## 14642

$800. I'll post a release date when we have production scheduled.


----------



## michaelsil1

t3sn4f2 said:


> Maybe as a late Christmas present. :santa2:


Hint hint.


----------



## t3sn4f2

michaelsil1 said:


> Hint hint.


I volunteer to do beta testing of the manual.


----------



## lycan

t3sn4f2 said:


> I volunteer to do beta testing of the manual.


i'll do gamma testing


----------



## kkant

macmovieman said:


> I am getting ready to purchase an Audison Bit One next week, is this something that is better or will replace the Bit One?


Short version: if you care about SQ, forget the BitOne and wait for the MS8. Long version: read the thread.


----------



## macmovieman

kkant said:


> Short version: if you care about SQ, forget the BitOne and wait for the MS8. Long version: read the thread.


Thanks and the short version will work just fine.


----------



## 14642

kkant said:


> Short version: if you care about SQ, forget the BitOne and wait for the MS8. Long version: read the thread.


I don't think that's fair. The Bit One.1 is a great piece of equipment, too. The main differences are Logic7 and automatic EQ, which I think are a big deal for many listeners. If you love to tune, are good at it and have an analyzer, the Bit One.1 may be more fun. If you require a digital input *and *you know how to tune and have an RTA, the Bit One.1 may be the right one for you.


----------



## ibanzil

^^^thanks for defending the bit1 before I had to.


----------



## vinny

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> My car is 24 channels.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> buy an MS-8 and throw away the installation manual and do a thousand experiments. Or...buy another processor and throw away the manual and do a thousand different experiments. MS-8 won't allow as many experiments as some of the others that don't include any automation, though...then MS-8 and its instruction manual will be the right product for you.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Maunal isn't done yet and yes, they should be released at the same time.


So are we to assume that the MS-8 is now a complete product but only the manual has to be worked on?



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If you love to tune, are good at it and have an analyzer, the Bit One.1 may be more fun. If you require a digital input *and *you know how to tune and have an RTA, the Bit One.1 may be the right one for you.


I'd like to a head on head comparision between these two.


----------



## kkant

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I don't think that's fair. The Bit One.1 is a great piece of equipment, too. The main differences are Logic7 and automatic EQ, which I think are a big deal for many listeners. If you love to tune, are good at it and have an analyzer, the Bit One.1 may be more fun. If you require a digital input *and *you know how to tune and have an RTA, the Bit One.1 may be the right one for you.


Well, we went through this 20 pages ago so I won't repeat. But IMO, to summarize: If someone wants to tune and play with the setup, they would be far better off with a CarPC than a BitOne. If they want the tuning done automatically, then the MS8 is the choice (and I'll caveat that with a "hopefully"). There's just no need for a BitOne.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy, is the master volume on the MS-8 on a LOG or linear scale?


----------



## benny

January. 2007. Thats when this thread started. Anybody else have doubts that this is really gonna happen?


----------



## kkant

vinny said:


> I'd like to a head on head comparision between these two.


See, this is the problem. The BitOne is not even in the same league as what the MS8 is trying to accomplish. BitOne is basically just a set of 31-band EQs. 31-band EQs have been around since the triassic period.

If you want a head to head comparison, what you really want to compare to the MS8 is the Imprint.


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> Andy, is the master volume on the MS-8 on a LOG or linear scale?


All of MS-8's audio controls are log scales.


----------



## 14642

benny said:


> January. 2007. Thats when this thread started. Anybody else have doubts that this is really gonna happen?


I don't.


----------



## Se7en

kkant said:


> See, this is the problem. The BitOne is not even in the same league as what the MS8 is trying to accomplish. BitOne is basically just a set of 31-band EQs. 31-band EQs have been around since the triassic period.
> 
> If you want a head to head comparison, what you really want to compare to the MS8 is the Imprint.


Fundamentally I hear what you're saying but until the MS8 is actually available to consumers, it is not, and will never be in the same "league" as the Audison or the Imprint. As attractive as the MS8 is, at this time it is just vapor. I could go on and on about how my Tact RCS will do all of these things that no other product will do but if it is not accessible to the consumer either due to cost or availability it simply does not matter.

It is one thing to talk about a product that might exist at some point, it's another thing altogether to walk around with a banana in your pocket talking about how much bigger your dick is compared to the next guy. At this point, it's just a banana.

Andy, I mean absolutely no disrespect for the time/effort you have spent explaining and evangelizing this product you obviously care a great deal. You've always been very respectful of other product in the same space, and I do honestly hope that this product does make it into consumer hands at some point in the near future. Given all of the hype and build up, it would be a major let down to a lot of folks (yourself included I'm sure) to see the MS8 not go all the way.


----------



## Technic

Se7en said:


> *Fundamentally I hear what you're saying but until the MS8 is actually available to consumers, it is not, and will never be in the same "league" as the Audison or the Imprint. **As attractive as the MS8 is, at this time it is just vapor. *I could go on and on about how my Tact RCS will do all of these things that no other product will do but if it is not accessible to the consumer either due to cost or availability it simply does not matter.
> 
> It is one thing to talk about a product that might exist at some point, it's another thing altogether to walk around with a banana in your pocket talking about how much bigger your dick is compared to the next guy. At this point, it's just a banana.
> 
> Andy, I mean absolutely no disrespect for the time/effort you have spent explaining and evangelizing this product you obviously care a great deal. You've always been very respectful of other product in the same space, and I do honestly hope that this product does make it into consumer hands at some point in the near future. Given all of the hype and build up, it would be a major let down to a lot of folks (yourself included I'm sure) to see the MS8 not go all the way.


Thanks.


----------



## 14642

Se7en said:


> It is one thing to talk about a product that might exist at some point, it's another thing altogether to walk around with a banana in your pocket talking about how much bigger your dick is compared to the next guy. At this point, it's just a banana.


There's definitely no banana in my pocket and if I had this to do all over again, I certainly wouldn't do it the same way. Unfortunately, we seriously underestimated (or misunderestimated, for you Bushies) the amount of work this thing would be and showed samples way too early. This entire 50-page thread has been an exercise in helping those who've seen it or heard about it understand what it will do once it's more than vapor. 

There's no one here who doesn't know that it isn't shipping yet and there are plenty here who have given up after many disappointments. Every so often someone shows up and berates the whole deal because it's "vapor". That's about as useful as "tits on a boar hog", as an old friend used to say. 

The sky is blue, Bigfoot has big feet...blah blah blah.


----------



## kkant

^ Yup.


----------



## kkant

Andy-- A slightly OT question. A few weeks back you posted spy shots of another MS-series product in our little thread:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...m/8257-jbls-ms-8-processor-45.html#post887583

Looks like a PWM-type amp, with digitally configured preamp settings. I'd be very interested in such a beast. Will these be released around the same time as the MS8? What are the planned configurations for channels and power outputs? Xover ranges and slopes? Approx price? Box size? If you are allowed to tell us, any info would be welcome!


----------



## Se7en

I've been reading this thread since the very beginning and have been patiently waiting and reading all of the updates and up until this point have have never once made any posts on the matter (positive, negative or neutral) as it was never my intent to stir the pot. The reality is, if the MS8 were available, I'd certainly be a consumer of it.

I also want to point out that my previous post was not targeted at you at all, only those who seem to have enough first hand experience with the product to make broad sweeping statements about it's obvious superiority to competing products. That's where to "banana" statement came in (even if it's not a banana to you, it is for the rest of us). Again, not targeted at you or the MS8 in particular, just the broad sweeping claims based on what I can only assume to be "unconscious knowledge". To this end, certainly no offense was intended to you or your colleagues.

Lastly, it is my opinion that if any company in the world can pull this off, it would JBL/Harman. I have long been a fan of JBL. I have done the Northridge tour at least 5 times (when I lived in LA and was close friends with Mr. Dennis Barry) and have seen first hand the amazing talent, effort, R&D capability and sheer execution that your company is capable of. In all sincerity, I do hope that the MS8 is all that it would seem to be and that all of your efforts are met with reward success.

With that I will leave this thread alone.

Kindest regards.









Andy Wehmeyer said:


> There's definitely no banana in my pocket and if I had this to do all over again, I certainly wouldn't do it the same way. Unfortunately, we seriously underestimated (or misunderestimated, for you Bushies) the amount of work this thing would be and showed samples way too early. This entire 50-page thread has been an exercise in helping those who've seen it or heard about it understand what it will do once it's more than vapor.
> 
> There's no one here who doesn't know that it isn't shipping yet and there are plenty here who have given up after many disappointments. Every so often someone shows up and berates the whole deal because it's "vapor". That's about as useful as "tits on a boar hog", as an old friend used to say.
> 
> The sky is blue, Bigfoot has big feet...blah blah blah.


----------



## 14642

Hey Seven,
Thanks for the kind words and sorry if I overstepped.


----------



## dbiegel

Since this is an auto-tune processor, can you comment on how the MS-8 technology compares with the Alpine H650?


----------



## thehatedguy

It is something on a whole other level than the H650...signal steering, rear and side decoding.

Andy, how would a setup using a 3 way front with coaxes and dedicated midbasses work in a MS-8 setup?


----------



## kkant

Se7en said:


> I also want to point out that my previous post was not targeted at you at all, only those who seem to have enough first hand experience with the product to make broad sweeping statements about it's obvious superiority to competing products. That's where to "banana" statement came in (even if it's not a banana to you, it is for the rest of us). Again, not targeted at you or the MS8 in particular, just the broad sweeping claims based on what I can only assume to be "unconscious knowledge". To this end, certainly no offense was intended to you or your colleagues.


K, I'll pick up that gauntlet. It's clear enough what you are pointing at with your banana. No, I haven't used the MS8 obviously, but I have used the Imprint system and I've used several 31-band EQs. I have a pretty good idea of the capabilities and limitations of those systems. And I'm pretty sure that neither myself nor most of the others reading this thread can win a nationwide SQ comp using those existing tools. Though I haven't heard the MS8 myself, I know it has won comps at the nationwide level with minimal user tuning involved. I know enough about car audio that I realize that such a capability, if realized in a product, represents an enormous breakthrough. The question that several have been asking is: wait for the MS8 or get something else now? Given the updates and detailed information that Andy has been providing us as to the status of integration (condensing the vapor, as it were), I feel at this point that it would be foolish for anyone who cares about SQ in a car to give in and buy something like a BitOne or whatever. I think that's enough justification for a pretty sweeping generalization.


----------



## vinny

kkant said:


> BitOne is basically just a set of 31-band EQs. 31-band EQs have been around since the triassic period.
> If you want a head to head comparison, what you really want to compare to the MS8 is the Imprint.


I thought the Bit One has TA as well?

I have not used the Bit One but have used the Alpine 650 and RF 360.2 and found both limiting (in different ways). Between those two the Alpine suited my needs better.



kkant said:


> Though I haven't heard the MS8 myself, I know it has won comps at the nationwide level with minimal user tuning involved.


Andy,

Just wondering...the MS-8 (as well as the Alpine RF and Audison products) are all targetted towards consumers who care a bit more about audio than the average Joe. I would go so far to claim that these products (given their price and limited availability) are targetted towards *audiophiles* or atleast *mid-fi *consumers. 

Now I have not used the MS-8 but the Alpine and RF products offer very little user control. Audiophiles and even many mid-fi users like to tune and tinker with the sound to suit their tastes and requirements. While auto tuning is nice I suspect many if not all MS-8 consumers will want to tune the MS-8 to their liking. We 'audiophiles' are a fussy lot indeed!


----------



## quality_sound

kkant said:


> See, this is the problem. The BitOne is not even in the same league as what the MS8 is trying to accomplish. * BitOne is basically just a set of 31-band EQs.* 31-band EQs have been around since the triassic period.
> 
> If you want a head to head comparison, what you really want to compare to the MS8 is the Imprint.


You really have no idea what a B1 does, do you? It also explains why you think you'd be better off with something 5 times it's size in your trunk.


----------



## kkant

quality_sound said:


> You really have no idea what a B1 does, do you? It also explains why you think you'd be better off with something 5 times it's size in your trunk.


Actually I have a very good idea of what the Bit1 does, thanks to your explanations, and I stand by the analysis above. You dropped off this thread long ago. Feel free to pick up where you left off if you feel the need, but I'm not repeating the whole conversation again.


----------



## kkant

vinny said:


> I thought the Bit One has TA as well?


It does. Time delays have been around forever too. But having that feature won't win you any comps either. The Bit1 has a small bag of tools for SQ. Even with a big bag of tools it is extremely difficult and time-consuming to tune a car well for SQ. That's why a working auto-tune is just about the most important thing for SQ in a car. Imprint tried, and IMO it failed miserably. MS8 tried and won some nationwide comps. That's why it's worth waiting for, even though none of us have heard it.



vinny said:


> Audiophiles and even many mid-fi users like to tune and tinker with the sound to suit their tastes and requirements. While auto tuning is nice I suspect many if not all MS-8 consumers will want to tune the MS-8 to their liking. We 'audiophiles' are a fussy lot indeed!


Speaking as an audiophile, I'd much prefer a machine to do the work for me--especially if the machine can do a better job than me, in a small fraction of the time. The goal for me is to listen to music and have it sound as good as possible. The MS8 will have the 31-band to adjust the target curve, and that is enough user-tunability for the goal of SQ.


----------



## t3sn4f2

dbiegel said:


> Since this is an auto-tune processor, can you comment on how the MS-8 technology compares with the Alpine H650?


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/139915-post44.html



t3sn4f2 said:


> Andy from Harman giving more details on the MS-8 and comparing it with the PXE-H650.
> 
> From Audiogroupforum.com
> 
> "There are lots of differences. First, MS-8 is more expensive.
> 
> Some technical differences are:
> 1. MS-8 includes power for speakers.
> 2. MS-8 includes a center channel output and a matrix surround processor (Logic7), which is more about fixing the image for the passengers than about reproducing an audio equivalent to a roller-coaster ride. The Apine doesn't include a center output and doesn't include that image processing.
> 3. The MS-8's crossover is fully configurable. It'll support any system of 8 channels or fewer, including 7.1, 5.1, 3.1, or the standard car-audio 2-channel bi-amped or tri-amped front stage and a sub. anything is possible, since all the channels can be anything, but crossover setup is manual in MS-8. It's automatic in the Alpine, but it's less configurable. The outputs are fixed.
> 4. MS-8 includes an auxiliary input and a remote control and display which allows you to make some adjustments after setup and includs a volume control for those pesky OE systems that include dynamic "bass elimination" (many GM).
> 5. MS-8's subwoofer level control is a shelf that's applied to all the channels through the crossover and the bass management algorithm. It'll preserve the impact in the front of the car AND add bass.
> *6. The automatic equalizers are completely different. The Alpine uses a 512-tap filter, which also equalizes phase and sets time alignment. It also includes some spatial averaging for multiple microphone placements (6). When you equalize with the Alipine, the first microphone placement sets the time alignment and the rest of the placements are used to smooth the frequency response over most of the car's interior. Multitap filters that operate in real time are a relatively new possibility. In years past, multitap filters in real time were only a hope, since there weren't many microprocessors that could process all that information quickly enough. The benefits of usiing a multitap filter are that they can be very precise and they equalize phase as well as magnitude since they operate on the impulse response measurement. For one tiny point in space, they can also eliminate the sound of plenty of reflections, but their ability to do that accurately diminishes in larger listening areas, since the effects of reflections at high frequencies can be very different even a few inches away from the original microphone position. The other important thing to note about multitap filters is that the 512 "bands" are distributed in a linear fashion rather than logarithmically. That means the resolution is fixed across the audio band. 512 taps gives you roughly 40 Hz resolution. That means you get 2 adjustment bands between 20 and 100Hz and 25 bands between 10k and 20k. Multitap filters, by default place more adjustment possibilities in the high frequencies than in the low frequencies because of the linear distribution of those "bands". That's the only drawback. The Alipine allows you to select from several target curves for adjustment after the automatic setup.
> 
> One more note about multitap: They are the shiznit for headphone EQ, because the "listening space" is fixed. With multitap EQ, you can add the reflective properties of a completely different space and transform the listening area to a completely believable representation of a much larger space. With speakers, that isn't possible yet because both of your ears hear both speakers and moving your head helps you determine the location of sounds (just like when your dog cocks his head when he hears a sound he doesn't recognize--we do the same thing, it just doesn't look so ridiculous).
> 
> MS-8's EQ is different. We also use a spatial average, but we use a binaural measurement system and 3 mic positions PER LISTENING POSITION. That gives us 6 measurements per seat for each of the 8 channels plus a time alignment adjustment for each seat. Once the setup is done, you can choose an optimization for any seating position and switch between them. For frequency response EQ, we make standard frequency response measurements, eliminate the phase measurement, average the measurements), calculate the phase response of the average, turn the measurement into an impulse response measurement, apply 8 biquads (filters) to the impulse response according to the target curve and the crossover settings using a very complicated and sneaky algorithm that I can't divulge because we're applying for a patent. The result is a VERY powerful EQ that can be implemented on a relatively inexpensive DSP for each channel and leave plenty of space to use the same algorithm on the eletrical signal of the MS-8's input for flattening of the input signal. The distribution of the bands is logarithmic and makes a completely adjustable target curve easy to implement and accurate. Each speaker location is equalized separately and, because of the spatial average, the acoustic sum of the channels matches the target curve. Once setup is complete, you can fine tune the car using a 31-band drawing tool. You draw the curve you want to hear and the MS-8 implements it and allows you to audition your changes vs. no EQ and vs. the automatic implementation of the predefined target.*
> Both pieces of equipment are technological marvels and they both include input channel summing and signal conditioning, crossover and EQ). MS-8 includes more stuff (center channel, Logic7, amplifiers, a display and remote, equalization memory and multiple seat optimization, center channel output and automatic input configuration--MS-8 will figure out what you've connected to the input regardless of polarity), but it should. It's more expensive.
> 
> Which one sounds better? You'll have to be the judge.
> 
> One last note: Both of these products are super-important and may help to revive the industry and get new customers interested in making their cars sound great while preserving their factory user interfaces. They have both been long development processes with plenty of invention and innovation, software development hiccups and decisions about which features to implement. Both products will require some new thinking on the parts of installers and salespeople about how one implements great audio. Simple 2-channel audio isn't dead, but these kinds of advancements make better listening experiences possible using a new set of rules.
> 
> Kudos to Jason ad his team for beating us to market. The other difference is that MS-8 isn't quite finished yet-but it will be.
> __________________
> Andy Wehmeyer
> Product Marketing Manager
> Harman Consumer Group
> Mobile Systems Division"


----------



## Technic

Technic said:


> Will this family of "MS" devices include the processor _without_ the amp?


No answer yet to my question...


----------



## 14642

Technic said:


> No answer yet to my question...


Sorry. No plans to build one without the amplification. It will include 8 pre-amp outputs, so you can simply not use the on board power.


----------



## Technic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sorry. No plans to build one without the amplification. It will include 8 pre-amp outputs, so you can simply not use the on board power.


Thanks...


----------



## Lanson

I just want to get rid of the hiss the 3sixty.2 creates. All the rest of this machine is bonus material, imo.


----------



## Babs

fourthmeal said:


> I just want to get rid of the hiss the 3sixty.2 creates. All the rest of this machine is bonus material, imo.


Playing devil's advocate, but is the 3sixty unit "creating" the hiss, or rather amplifying a hiss?


----------



## quality_sound

kkant said:


> Actually I have a very good idea of what the Bit1 does, thanks to your explanations, and I stand by the analysis above. You dropped off this thread long ago. Feel free to pick up where you left off if you feel the need, but I'm not repeating the whole conversation again.



Then why are you likening it to a pair of EQTs? Doing so sells the B1 FAR short of what it can do. I've never heard you say that about the 701 or the DSP6-SL and the B1 is even more flexible than either of those. 

No one is saying a B1 is the second coming but a carputer has many more disadvantages than a B1 for all but the most die-hard enthusiast.


----------



## Lanson

Babs said:


> Playing devil's advocate, but is the 3sixty unit "creating" the hiss, or rather amplifying a hiss?


By all means, I am open to possibilities. I always have experienced a level of background hiss with all the 3sixty.2's I've installed. I just make sure that the person I'm installing for knows it does this, and decides it doesn't bother them. 

I do wonder if I have a picofuse issue (Pioneer F900BT navi), and/or if the RSd amps are less than silent.

IMO, it may just be a dirty cocktail of those three things!


I do know that my last system, which had DCX300.4 and DCX500.1 PPI amps, the stock HU, and a 3sixty.2 had the same amount of hiss more or less. 

When I sold those amps to a friend and installed them in a different vehicle with a Clarion 785USB for processing, we heard zilch.


----------



## Technic

fourthmeal said:


> I just want to get rid of the hiss the 3sixty.2 creates. All the rest of this machine is bonus material, imo.


I used to have the same hiss issue with the 3SIXTY.2, and only adding a Matrix line driver before it helped in eliminating it and solved other stability issues with this processor.


----------



## Lanson

Technic said:


> I used to have the same hiss issue with the 3SIXTY.2, and only adding a Matrix line driver before it helped in eliminating it and solved other stability issues with this processor.


Sweet, I was thinking of doing a TLD 22 in front, and a 66 in back of the processor to boost both sides.

Of course the MS8 would be a better choice than a bunch of line drivers. So I'm hoping it comes out asap.


----------



## kkant

quality_sound said:


> I've never heard you say that about the 701 or the DSP6-SL


At this point I would not buy those either--for the same reason. If there was no hope of a quality autotune in the near future, I might think otherwise. Fortunately, despite the hiccups along the way, it looks like the MS8 is really coming to fruition.


----------



## CHH777

fourthmeal said:


> I just want to get rid of the hiss the 3sixty.2 creates. All the rest of this machine is bonus material, imo.


[Steve Martin]

Hey, maybe it's your needle...

[/Steve Martin]


----------



## rommelrommel

Still waiting patiently lol.


----------



## ibanzil

Surprised I haven't heard any ces buzz about the unit.


----------



## macmovieman

ibanzil said:


> Surprised I haven't heard any ces buzz about the unit.


Today is the big day for CES. LINK


----------



## mp3weenie

Hi Andy,

It has been a few years since I chimed-in on another forum. I just wondered if you ever added an eq correction only mode that bypasses the logic seven processor. I have multi-channel output but do not want the summation/expansion of L7 process. 

I know you explained in the past that the 2-channel phased output from the deck would be processed accurately with L7 BUT does this require 2 channel phased output from the deck or will the 5-channel input (in my case) be phased prior to going into the L7 processor? If I need a phased 2 channel output from the deck I may be out of luck :<.

Thanks for the clarification... I still think this is a great prototype and hope to see it on the market at some point...

Thanks. Jay


----------



## 14642

Hey Jay,
There's no pass-through 5-channel mode. 2-channel input only, but Logic 7 can be turned off. What kind of car or head unit are you using?


----------



## dkh

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hey Jay,
> There's no pass-through 5-channel mode. 2-channel input only, but Logic 7 can be turned off. What kind of car or head unit are you using?


Me will be using Pioneer P99RS with single RCA full bandwidth output.


----------



## rommelrommel

Is JBL as CES with the MS8 at all this year?


----------



## ErinH

There should be a rule about this thread. No one can post in it except for the OP, Andy. Furthermore, Andy can only post in it until it’s shipping.

That way, I don’t have to get a bit of ‘kid on Christmas morning’ when I see that it’s popped up in my subscribed threads, only to then find more questions or random posts stating ‘bump’.


----------



## kkant

bump


----------



## kkant

Merry Christmas


----------



## VP Electricity

> "There oughta be a rule..."




To my knowledge, JBL was not present at CES.


----------



## michaelsil1

VP Electricity said:


> To my knowledge, JBL was not present at CES.


I was looking and couldn't find them either.


----------



## fastlane

bikinpunk said:


> only to then find more questions or random posts stating ‘bump’.


*Bump.* Sorry I couldn't help it.


----------



## BigRed

12v / north hall vendors were down 40% at ces


----------



## rugdnit

bikinpunk said:


> There should be a rule about this thread. No one can post in it except for the OP, Andy. Furthermore, Andy can only post in it until it’s shipping.
> 
> That way, I don’t have to get a bit of ‘kid on Christmas morning’ when I see that it’s popped up in my subscribed threads, only to then find more questions or random posts stating ‘bump’.


*Agreed*! To add to the CES down 40% in vendor participation I have seen this in my industry as well. I rep for a large hockey company and have watched the main trade shows shrink and shrink every year for the last 5 or 6 years. More and more vendors/mfgs are holding their own dealer events.


----------



## kkant

Andy--

Is a Lexus Mark Levinson system included in your list of OEM test cases? Seems like it would interface fine, since the MS8 corrects both the factory time alignment and the factory EQ; but it would be great to know if you've verified that.

I envision hooking up the ML amp outputs (tweeter, midrange, woofer, sub) to the MS8, thereby using all 8 input channels on the MS8. I'm pretty certain those factory outputs are both aligned and EQ'ed.


----------



## 14642

kkant said:


> Andy--
> 
> Is a Lexus Mark Levinson system included in your list of OEM test cases? Seems like it would interface fine, since the MS8 corrects both the factory time alignment and the factory EQ; but it would be great to know if you've verified that.
> 
> I envision hooking up the ML amp outputs (tweeter, midrange, woofer, sub) to the MS8, thereby using all 8 input channels on the MS8. I'm pretty certain those factory outputs are both aligned and EQ'ed.


They are, yes and yes.


----------



## kkant

Awesome. Thanks.


----------



## fastlane

Andy, seeing as this unit appears to be in the final stages of production; is it possible at all to narrow down a quarter release at least. This might help out us guys who have no patience and are eyeballing some other alternatives.


----------



## masswork

When will it available in Indonesia? 
It's difficult to find JBL products here


----------



## Thunderplains

5 days away from 2 years since this thread began.. Looking forward to a fine processor..


----------



## Se7en

Thunderplains said:


> 5 days away from 2 years since this thread began.. Looking forward to a fine processor..


I'm gonna bust out some birthday candles.


----------



## fastlane

I will say; I don't recall any other product being followed this long after it's initial introduction. A lot of products have been hyped, discussed, swept under the rug, and forgotton without a second thought. To watch this one continue being discussed two years after it's intial introduction, is a testament to how much people are craving a properly built, one size fits all, processor. 

If it ever comes to fruition is will be that much better.


----------



## rommelrommel

fastlane said:


> I will say; I don't recall any other product being followed this long after it's initial introduction. A lot of products have been hyped, discussed, swept under the rug, and forgotton without a second thought. To watch this one continue being discussed two years after it's intial introduction, is a testament to how much people are craving a properly built, one size fits all, processor.
> 
> If it ever comes to fruition is will be that much better.


I think the idone saga went on longer, but I have lot more faith in JBL.


----------



## estione

2 year's later and still no sign of anything from jbl :mean::mean:, i think they are asking a lot if they think people are prepared to wait that LONG


----------



## rommelrommel

estione said:


> 2 year's later and still no sign of anything from jbl :mean::mean:, i think they are asking a lot if they think people are prepared to wait that LONG


If it ain't ready, it ain't ready.

Not making it to market would make me sad because no one else is doing anything that I'd use. Imprint sucks. I'd rather use a line level converter lol.


----------



## 14642

I'll have an announcement in the next few weeks, but you can expect to see some activity at SBN in March.


----------



## CraigE

Andy,
Before it's released can you add an active noise canceling feature ? JK


----------



## billymonter

*Re: JBL's MS-8 processor! with added noise cancellation*

2nd that request for noise cancellation or at least have a pre and post inputs to allow such a unit to interface. I have been waiting for years ever since volvo announced I believe over 10 years ago. I have even considered getting a pair of noise cancelling headhpones and jury rigging them to experiment.


----------



## Fast1one

CraigE said:


> Andy,
> Before it's released can you add an active noise canceling feature ? JK


I don't think that would be very easy to do. Although I have toyed with the idea a lot...

You would probably need multiple microphones strategically placed throughout the cabin to do it real time.


----------



## fastlane

rommelrommel said:


> Imprint sucks. I'd rather use a line level converter lol.


Have you used Imprint personally?


----------



## trevordj

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'll have an announcement in the next few weeks, but you can expect to see some activity at SBN in March.


Awesome, I can't wait! Hopefully just in time for me to burn my tax return.


----------



## ryancrouch

Andy you and the JBL team are a bigger tease than being led blindfolded through the Playboy mansion! LOL Can't wait for the announcements!


----------



## kkant

fastlane said:


> Have you used Imprint personally?


I have, and I agree with rommelrommel.


----------



## TPMS

CraigE said:


> Andy,
> Before it's released can you add an active noise canceling feature ? JK



are you talking about the feature described here ?

Harman International - Lotus and Harman International Announce Collaboration


----------



## kkant

TPMS said:


> are you talking about the feature described here ?
> 
> Harman International - Lotus and Harman International Announce Collaboration


Noise reduction in a Lotus? How about starting with something a little easier?? 

J/K actually this sounds very cool. If it works. I'm a little skeptical, seems Luke a very difficult problem outside of the headphone domain. Hey Andy, are we gonna see this in something aftermarket?


----------



## TPMS

kkant said:


> Noise reduction in a Lotus? How about starting with something a little easier??
> 
> J/K actually this sounds very cool. If it works. I'm a little skeptical, seems Luke a very difficult problem outside of the headphone domain. Hey Andy, are we gonna see this in something aftermarket?



if Lotus tested its software inside an Elise, we can be sure it works :surprised:

.. like a lot also the "Roaring feature"


----------



## 14642

CraigE said:


> Andy,
> Before it's released can you add an active noise canceling feature ? JK


Dammit! You stole my thunder. I was going to announce that MS-8 has been delayed for another 2 years so we can add active noise cancellation.

Just Kidding. We're not adding it to this product.


----------



## azngotskills

LOL thats pretty funny....cant wait for the update


----------



## rugdnit

this is great news... I have been holding off on my install... the timing is looking good. cash is waiting.


----------



## SSSnake

Andy,

I'm pretty sure availability will be an issue in my area. Any thoughts about a group buy for the DIYMA crowd? It sure would suck to wait all this time and then have to wait through backorders...


----------



## 14642

SSSnake said:


> Andy,
> 
> I'm pretty sure availability will be an issue in my area. Any thoughts about a group buy for the DIYMA crowd? It sure would suck to wait all this time and then have to wait through backorders...


 
You'll be able to find it.


----------



## nick561

can't wait for sbn


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy, recently someone tested the frequency response of a top of the line Pioneer Nav head unit at several different volume settings. The results showed a type of volume dependent EQ that boosted the bass as you reduced the volume (along with a slight treble boost). The curve tapered off to flat with a slight treble cut at the higher volume settings though.

Does the MS-8's master volume have this type of volume dependent contouring?


----------



## tornaido_3927

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'll have an announcement in the next few weeks, but you can expect to see some activity at SBN in March.


Hi Andy

I'm just curious, how will the availability of the MS-8 go internationally?
Will it be released in other countries at the same time as in the US?
What about Australia specifically?


----------



## kkant

TPMS said:


> if Lotus tested its software inside an Elise, we can be sure it works :surprised:


That is true. But I wouldn't want to cancel the noise in that car--especially the howl when the cam comes on at 6K. <drool>

OTOH, imagine such a technology in a car that is already quiet. How about 30db of cabin noise at 70mph cruise? <we need a drool icon>


----------



## t3sn4f2

You guys really want some anti noise playing on your speakers over the music signal?


----------



## kkant

t3sn4f2 said:


> You guys really want some anti noise playing on your speakers over the music signal?


Absolutely! As long as it doesn't cancel the music, of course.  I don't know how that would work, but hey.


----------



## fastlane

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'll have an announcement in the next *few weeks*, but you can expect to see some activity at SBN in March.


Another gloriously vague response. You should run for office.  I can neither confirm nor deny any rumors you may have heard.


----------



## Chrisbl

tornaido_3927 said:


> Hi Andy
> 
> I'm just curious, how will the availability of the MS-8 go internationally?
> Will it be released in other countries at the same time as in the US?
> What about Australia specifically?


I was wondering about the same thing, just in Norway. Can't wait to get this mounted in my Subaru Legacy! Been holding off my install for a couple of months now


----------



## quality_sound

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> You'll be able to find it.


Andy,

Will there be a retail stream for those of us stationed overseas? I don't want to buy a European model simply because I'm going to get raped on the price since over here they just take the dollar amount something ellf in the States and put a Euro sign in the front. For example, a $299 Wii is 299 Euro over here. 

Thanks,
Paul


----------



## quality_sound

fastlane said:


> Another gloriously vague response. You should run for office.  I can neither confirm nor deny any rumors you may have heard.


Nah, a few is 3, right? And he did say BY SBN in March.


----------



## Luke352

tornaido_3927 said:


> Hi Andy
> 
> I'm just curious, how will the availability of the MS-8 go internationally?
> Will it be released in other countries at the same time as in the US?
> What about Australia specifically?



And more specifically at a reasonable cost, JBL Australia has a nasty habbit of seriously overpricing any of the top level stuff, for a while there they were trying to ask the equivelant of $1380 USD for the W15Gti, so basically twice the RRP in the US, it's no wonder they hardly sold any. The price has dropped to a more reasonable amount but still very very expensive compared to the going rate in the states. JBL Australia has completely priced themselves out of the market over here.


----------



## fastlane

quality_sound said:


> Nah, a few is 3, right? And he did say BY SBN in March.


Actually he said "*you can expect*"; another non commital response. 
I'm just messing with ya Andy; we're all chomping at the bit here.


----------



## TPMS

kkant said:


> That is true. But I wouldn't want to cancel the noise in that car--especially the howl when the cam comes on at 6K. <drool>
> mee too I like those kind of "gears" .. more indeed than electronics
> OTOH, imagine such a technology in a car that is already quiet. How about 30db of cabin noise at 70mph cruise? <we need a drool icon>



agree, IMO, Silence is the more impressing sound in premium cars


----------



## TPMS

Andy, 
please remember to confirm SIZE, asap 
.. must prepare a suitable room for him


----------



## Andy Jones

Andy---is JBL going to be doing seminars this year at SBN that competitors can attend? I missed last years because of judging.


----------



## tornaido_3927

Luke352 said:


> And more specifically at a reasonable cost, JBL Australia has a nasty habbit of seriously overpricing any of the top level stuff, for a while there they were trying to ask the equivelant of $1380 USD for the W15Gti, so basically twice the RRP in the US, it's no wonder they hardly sold any. The price has dropped to a more reasonable amount but still very very expensive compared to the going rate in the states. JBL Australia has completely priced themselves out of the market over here.


Exactly! It would be great if the MS-8 became available as well as affordable. It'd be such a shame to see everyone forced to import from the US as it's possible for a pretty large saving even with $100+ international postage. A good portion of consumers in Aus don't even really know JBL makes some very good and high quality/end products because they won't look that far out of their price range..


----------



## SullyTT

Andy, 

I'm assuming that it will be available by the time SBN rolls around. If that's the case, will you have any units available for purchase at the event?


----------



## 1320ft

tornaido_3927 said:


> Exactly! It would be great if the MS-8 became available as well as affordable. It'd be such a shame to see everyone forced to import from the US as it's possible for a pretty large saving even with $100+ international postage. A good portion of consumers in Aus don't even really know JBL makes some very good and high quality/end products because they won't look that far out of their price range..


Hopefully it is reasonably priced. I'm a bit of a JBL fanboy, I even used to work for Convoy (aus distributor). I have been waiting for this to come out, but if it is priced like the GTi gear WAS, i'll be getting a bitone instead.


----------



## rommelrommel

TPMS said:


> Andy,
> please remember to confirm SIZE, asap
> .. must prepare a suitable room for him


Ditto.


----------



## LIGER

here is the first jbl ms8 processer mounted in car


----------



## ItalynStylion

1) Why so dirty?
2) Three pedals; no stick? Column shifter?
3) How did you get this photo?


----------



## LIGER

It's a jbl demo car which was kept in auto expo in India.

you can refer to this site.

JBL at the Auto Expo 2010 - Team-BHP


----------



## TPMS

rommelrommel said:


> Ditto.


----------



## t3sn4f2

TPMS said:


>


It's approximately yay big.


----------



## Sptsmed

Any idea on price and roll out date yet? My choices these days are the new Pioneer P99RS or go back to a Denon with the MS-8


----------



## t3sn4f2

Sptsmed said:


> Any idea on price and roll out date yet? My choices these days are the new Pioneer P99RS or go back to a Denon with the MS-8


The price is the same as always, IIRC. No word on any firm date yet.


----------



## Technic

For a show car that's quite filthy... the MS-8 looks massive, though.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Technic said:


> For a show car that's quite filthy... the MS-8 looks massive, though.


Looks to be a little longer than a PDX. Doesn't seem that big to me.


----------



## timelord9

it does seem slightly more real than anything we've seen so far though....


----------



## 14642

Technic said:


> For a show car that's quite filthy... the MS-8 looks massive, though.


Actually, the nano was really cool. Delhi, India, where the show was is dusty.

I'll dig up the dimensions a little later today and post them here. Sorry for the delay.


----------



## Thunderplains

Can we get some pictures?  Something?


----------



## rommelrommel

Looks 5x9ish maybe? Plus room for RCA out and such?


----------



## BodegaBay

Andy, 

I didn't realize you guys had another prototype other than the BMW Gary built back in 2007. I stumbled onto this 2007 IFA Berlin interview in which you spoke about the MS-8 fitted into a Saab 9-5. The video doesn't show the proto itself, only the setup screen was shown. Now that I think about it, you might have mentioned the Saab in the CS&P thread...

Andy's interview starts @2:15 mark.








Ok, now I think I understand why you had the 2010 MS-8 proto in the New Delhi show. It looks like Sameer Kapasi -the same guy who showed off the Murcielago Becker system at 2007 IFA- was heavily involved with the Nano show car. That and Harmon can't ignore emerging markets such as India. Sounds like you guys move a lot of products there.

Sameer showing off the MS-8 in the Nano @2:50 mark.


----------



## VP Electricity

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> And here are some "spy shots" of some other stuff that's in the works.


I blame the product manager if the SKUs in this line aren't the same form factor :/


----------



## ItalynStylion

I just installed a "temporary" passive/fullrange setup in my truck till I get a processor. I have some boo boo passive crossovers on the tweets and the midbass running full range since I don't have any active crossovers on the headunit.

I need this; can we start putting in double time? Or at least hammer time?


----------



## kkant

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> And here are some "spy shots" of some other stuff that's in the works.


That reminds me-- I had some questions on those amps. Andy, can you tell us approx output configurations and power? And also, what are the specs on the built-in xovers, like slopes and freq ranges? Will they be released in the same timeframe as the MS8?


----------



## t3sn4f2

t3sn4f2 said:


> Andy, recently someone tested the frequency response of a top of the line Pioneer Nav head unit at several different volume settings. The results showed a type of volume dependent EQ that boosted the bass as you reduced the volume (along with a slight treble boost). The curve tapered off to flat with a slight treble cut at the higher volume settings though.
> 
> Does the MS-8's master volume have this type of volume dependent contouring?


bump


----------



## 14642

No, MS-8's volume control is just a volume control.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, MS-8's volume control is just a volume control.


Cool, thanks.


----------



## Bizarroterl

So the recommended method would be to set the head unit volume, run the calibration setup, then control the volume from then on using the MS8?


----------



## ItalynStylion

Here is what I'm planning to do; let me know if it doesn't work on the MS8. 

I'd like to run a single RCA back that is full range. This would be divided up into the left tweeter and midbass and the right tweeter and midbass. I'd also like to run back another separate RCA for the sub on it's own. That way I can (at will) push the sub volume up a little when I want to from the headunit without having to do a whole bunch of other stuff. Would something like that work?


----------



## bigabe

It truly is the Lexus LF-A of car audio processors.

I wonder if it will be $340,000.


----------



## Bizarroterl

bigabe said:


> It truly is the Lexus LF-A of car audio processors.
> 
> I wonder if it will be $340,000.


I'm sure you would have Andy's attention if you're willing to spend that much, though you may get more than one.


----------



## Loudtaco

so without making me search this entire thread when is the ms8 going to be released? Finally


----------



## lycan

bigabe said:


> It truly is the Lexus LF-A of car audio processors.
> 
> I wonder if it will be $340,000.


LF-A = still-born turd.

I heard that Toyota is going to design the gas peddle to stick wide open, just to try to compete with the Nissan GT-R (for about one quarter of the price). I wonder if that's true ...


----------



## rommelrommel

Loudtaco said:


> so without making me search this entire thread when is the ms8 going to be released? Finally


MS-8 announcement at SBN's (March 13-14th)


----------



## 14642

Bizarroterl said:


> So the recommended method would be to set the head unit volume, run the calibration setup, then control the volume from then on using the MS8?


Yes, that's the recommended procedure, but using the factory volume control is fine too.


----------



## 14642

ItalynStylion said:


> Here is what I'm planning to do; let me know if it doesn't work on the MS8.
> 
> I'd like to run a single RCA back that is full range. This would be divided up into the left tweeter and midbass and the right tweeter and midbass. I'd also like to run back another separate RCA for the sub on it's own. That way I can (at will) push the sub volume up a little when I want to from the headunit without having to do a whole bunch of other stuff. Would something like that work?


No, the bass has to be generated by MA-8. The processing inside the box takes about 8mS, so if you run some signals around MS-8, they'll be out of synch. You'll want to use MS-8's sub level control. It's much better and will preserve the blend between the midbass and the sub to keep the bass up front even when you boost.


----------



## 14642

I'll make an announcement about the release date once we have production scheduled. I'll make that announcement soon.

Sorry, I've wiped enough egg from my face.


----------



## 14642

We'd have been done by now if Adam (engineer) hadn't had to invent a resampler to make the MLS signal correlate even when CD players don't clock at 44.1k. 

Oh well...more I.P.


----------



## rugdnit

I know it takes alot of work on your part to participate here Andy- Thank you!


----------



## VP Electricity

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> We'd have been done by now if Adam (engineer) hadn't had to invent a resampler to make the MLS signal correlate even when CD players don't clock at 44.1k.
> 
> Oh well...more I.P.


When don't CD players clock at 44.1k?


----------



## 14642

VP Electricity said:


> When don't CD players clock at 44.1k?


Because they're all cheap pieces of...

We didn't do a bunch of investigation, but it appears that optical drives are now less than a dime a dozen and so many are sold that eliminating even a penny from the BOM makes someone a bunch of money. Let's call it something like "rounding error". Let's say I have a product and I ask you to make one that's nearly as good but for a dollar less. You say, "OK" and you make one that's almost as good--a little less precise, but good enough. Then, a year later, I take the one you made and hand it to someone else and ask him to get close enough. He scrimps here and there and the new and even less expensive one is almost as good as the previous one that was almost as good as its predecessor, which was almost as good as the one that was almost as good as the one before that. 

We've now tested bunches of OE and aftermarket units and cheap ones rarely clock at the right rate. It's no biggie if you aren't trying to correlate some test signal. For the Un-EQ in MS-8, we have to have pretty precise correlation to pick impulse peaks to realign the channels from a sequence on a CD and the clocking frequency is sort of the basline. 

Nevertheless, Adam won a Teddy Bear and a 5-dollar gift card to 7-11 for his great work in getting to the bottom of the problem and inventing a fix.

Everyone say, "Thanks Adam!" He's a frequent visitor here, but I don't think he's posted anything yet.


----------



## Sex Cells

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Because they're all cheap pieces of...
> 
> We didn't do a bunch of investigation, but it appears that optical drives are now less than a dime a dozen and so many are sold that eliminating even a penny from the BOM makes someone a bunch of money. Let's call it something like "rounding error". Let's say I have a product and I ask you to make one that's nearly as good but for a dollar less. You say, "OK" and you make one that's almost as good--a little less precise, but good enough. Then, a year later, I take the one you made and hand it to someone else and ask him to get close enough. He scrimps here and there and the new and even less expensive one is almost as good as the previous one that was almost as good as its predecessor, which was almost as good as the one that was almost as good as the one before that.
> 
> We've now tested bunches of OE and aftermarket units and cheap ones rarely clock at the right rate. It's no biggie if you aren't trying to correlate some test signal. For the Un-EQ in MS-8, we have to have pretty precise correlation to pick impulse peaks to realign the channels from a sequence on a CD and the clocking frequency is sort of the basline.
> 
> Nevertheless, Adam won a Teddy Bear and a 5-dollar gift card to 7-11 for his great work in getting to the bottom of the problem and inventing a fix.
> 
> Everyone say, "Thanks Adam!" He's a frequent visitor here, but I don't think he's posted anything yet.


I'd like to know more about this. Are there price points that are better than others in aftermarket decks (id imagine there are). How do factory decks compare to aftermarket. Which brands are better, etc. etc. Would it be better to use a factory deck vs. an aftermarket one in certain circumstances?


----------



## Sex Cells

I mention this because i could swear youd mentioned oem decks being better in certain aspects.


----------



## 14642

As I indicated, we didn't investigate a bunch. Certainly, cheap decks are likely to be worse. However, this poor performance isn't going to be audible when you listen to CDs. The reason it's important for MS-8 is because we rely on this for high-performance UN-EQ, but only during setup. The algorithm assumes that what it sees from the CD is in fact what it sees. For aftermarket decks that include full range stereo pre-outs with MS-8, it doesn't matter. You just skip UN-EQ in the setup. 

For OE decks with EQ and factory amps with crossovers, UN-EQ is important and we've seen expensive systems with bad clocks and cheap systems with good clocks. Fortunately, this issue is fixed inside MS-8.


----------



## ItalynStylion

The guy invented a fix for your entire product holdup and your company gave him a teddy bear and $5? Damn, I'd have taken him out to the nicest steakhouse in town at the very least!

Thanks Adam!


----------



## t3sn4f2

ItalynStylion said:


> The guy invented a fix for your entire product holdup and your company gave him a teddy bear and $5? Damn, I'd have taken him out to the nicest steakhouse in town at the very least!
> 
> Thanks Adam!


You never know........Adam could be a teddy bear aficionado.


----------



## AdamS

t3sn4f2 said:


> You never know........Adam could be a teddy bear aficionado.


I never got the teddy bear. Just a trip to Shenzhen, China (where I am right now) to help with another product. Ni hao!


----------



## kkant

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> We've now tested bunches of OE and aftermarket units and cheap ones rarely clock at the right rate. It's no biggie if you aren't trying to correlate some test signal. For the Un-EQ in MS-8, we have to have pretty precise correlation to pick impulse peaks to realign the channels from a sequence on a CD and the clocking frequency is sort of the basline.


I know you have already solved the problem, but just curious... Would it be better to rip the MS8 setup CD to wav files and play them with an MP3 player via aux-in? Or do MP3 players suffer from the same jitter problem, even playing from HD/flash?


----------



## kkant

AdamS said:


> I never got the teddy bear. Just a trip to Shenzhen, China (where I am right now) to help with another product. Ni hao!


Way to go, man.  Welcome to the board.


----------



## ItalynStylion

AdamS said:


> I never got the teddy bear. Just a trip to Shenzhen, China (where I am right now) to help with another product. Ni hao!


Sweet action!


----------



## AdamS

kkant said:


> I know you have already solved the problem, but just curious... Would it be better to rip the MS8 setup CD to wav files and play them with an MP3 player via aux-in? Or do MP3 players suffer from the same jitter problem, even playing from HD/flash?



Aux-in *could* give you a slightly better result if your playback device (MP3 player) doesn't suffer from a clocking or jitter problem. I verified this with the CD player in my laptop and a USB soundcard. 

Note, there could also be a clocking or jitter problem in the head unit or amp, though I haven't run across this yet.

I haven't measured any MP3 devices yet.


----------



## CraigE

Adam, thanks for the fix. 
I suspect you will be the one helping Andy catch stones :z:if it isn't right .


----------



## kkant

AdamS said:


> Aux-in *could* give you a slightly better result if your playback device (MP3 player) doesn't suffer from a clocking or jitter problem. I verified this with the CD player in my laptop and a USB soundcard.


Cool. Would you say that the source of the clock issues is the DAC on the source unit? If so, I guess there's no reason to think that a computer or MP3 player inherently avoids this problem. Seems like this would be a tough waveform to resample, since most DAC outputs (I believe) run the output through a filter to smooth the stairstep.



AdamS said:


> Note, there could also be a clocking or jitter problem in the head unit or amp, though I haven't run across this yet.


Interesting. Does this mean the analog signal path can introduce these kinds of problems as well?


----------



## ErinH

Andy,

You may have covered this in the thread somewhere already, but I’m not sure.

If you were to stick with the headunit volume control, and let’s say that this volume control has a loudness contour (variable throughout the pot range), does the un-EQ work real time to dismantle this to a flat signal while the headunit volume control is adjusted, and then do it’s thing?

Even my aftermarket deck does this (with loud turned off), so I was wondering just how the ms8 handles this if the user did not want to use the ms-8’s volume control. 

I’m going to assume that this is a prime example why the ms-8’s volume control should be used, and the headunit’s volume should always remain at the same level. However, a loudness curve is nice in some cases.


----------



## VP Electricity

AdamS said:


> I never got the teddy bear. Just a trip to Shenzhen, China (where I am right now) to help with another product. Ni hao!


First prize - a trip to China immediately before CNY, to get some product shipped!

Second prize, a set of steak knives.


----------



## instalher

you have got to be kidding i just got the first canadian dexp99rs and now i find out that the ms-8 is ready... damn...


----------



## ItalynStylion

instalher said:


> you have got to be kidding i just got the first canadian dexp99rs and now i find out that the ms-8 is ready... damn...


Woah woah woah....let's not get ahead of ourselves


----------



## kkant

instalher said:


> you have got to be kidding i just got the first canadian dexp99rs and now i find out that the ms-8 is ready... damn...


How does the auto-eq sound?


----------



## michaelsil1

instalher said:


> you have got to be kidding i just got the first canadian dexp99rs and now i find out that the ms-8 is ready... damn...





ItalynStylion said:


> Woah woah woah....let's not get ahead of ourselves


Yeah!


You might be very happy with what you have.


----------



## kkant

michaelsil1 said:


> You might be very happy with what you have.


Or not. Given how well the Imprint worked, I would be extremely skeptical of the Pioneer.


----------



## LegendJeff

kkant said:


> Or not. Given how well the Imprint worked, I would be extremely skeptical of the Pioneer.


Umm... imprint is alpine


----------



## ItalynStylion

LegendJeff said:


> Umm... imprint is alpine


I think he knows.


----------



## VP Electricity

ItalynStylion said:


> I think he knows.



Yes, what I think he's saying is, "Given how the Imprint from Alpine worked, I have little faith that the Pioneer will be far superior - and thus, probably unsatisfactory". 

That's what I'm getting, anyway.


----------



## ItalynStylion

VP Electricity said:


> Yes, what I think he's saying is, "Given how the Imprint from Alpine worked, I have little faith that the Pioneer will be far superior - and thus, probably unsatisfactory".
> 
> That's what I'm getting, anyway.


Bingo


----------



## VP Electricity

Andy, since apparently "MS" in MS-8 stands for Mobile Synthesis - and Synthesis is a name JBL tends to put on flagship positioned products - can you comment on distribution? Will I be able to purchase this from my JBL distributor, whom I am already a customer of? Or do I need to become a direct-purchasing dealer to have access to Mobile Synthesis gear? 

This is of course an important point for Harman in many ways, good and bad, but it affects those of us who are in the biz as well...


----------



## michaelsil1

kkant said:


> Or not. Given how well the Imprint worked, I would be extremely skeptical of the Pioneer.


Pioneer doesn't use the same auto tune; maybe it does a good job.


----------



## kkant

michaelsil1 said:


> Pioneer doesn't use the same auto tune; maybe it does a good job.


Yes, perhaps, but I'm still very skeptical. I'm not going to run out and buy it unheard like I did the Imprint.  Auto-tune has always been the holy grail of DSP, and it's been tried before unsuccessfully. If Pioneer went out and won some SQ comps with it, that would be a different story.


----------



## an2ny888

im a newbie to this thread ( i've only been following it for a year hehe ), whats the approx SRP for this when it come out? trying to decide between this and the p01


----------



## rommelrommel

an2ny888 said:


> im a newbie to this thread ( i've only been following it for a year hehe ), whats the approx SRP for this when it come out? trying to decide between this and the p01


800~ USD.


----------



## t3sn4f2

bikinpunk said:


> Andy,
> 
> You may have covered this in the thread somewhere already, but I’m not sure.
> 
> If you were to stick with the headunit volume control, and let’s say that this volume control has a loudness contour (variable throughout the pot range), does the un-EQ work real time to dismantle this to a flat signal while the headunit volume control is adjusted, and then do it’s thing?
> 
> Even my aftermarket deck does this (with loud turned off), so I was wondering just how the ms8 handles this if the user did not want to use the ms-8’s volume control.
> 
> I’m going to assume that this is a prime example why the ms-8’s volume control should be used, and the headunit’s volume should always remain at the same level. However, a loudness curve is nice in some cases.


I'm _pretty_ sure it's not a dynamic realtime correction.


----------



## instalher

that pioneer peice has one many accolades over in europe where its been out for almost a yr. now.. including product of the yr....most of team pioneer europe run this head unit as well.......now that being said.......if i dont like the auto eq....... then i guess i can buy a jbl. ms-8 and bingo.... iam offically broke!!


----------



## mspiegle

t3sn4f2 said:


> You never know........Adam could be a teddy bear aficionado.


If not, I hope it was a solid gold teddy bear!


----------



## kkant

instalher said:


> that pioneer peice has one many accolades over in europe where its been out for almost a yr. now.. including product of the yr....


Has it won any comps, perhaps EU-wide? If you have links, that would be great! Product of the year from an industry organization...doesn't really cut it for me. To me that just says "yes, this is a great idea and we as an industry are glad that someone attempted it". Doesn't mean it actually works well. I'd like to see if it was compared against the tuning efforts of expert installers/tuners, and found to be as good or better.


----------



## n_olympios

kkant said:


> Has it won any comps, perhaps EU-wide? If you have links, that would be great! Product of the year from an industry organization...doesn't really cut it for me. To me that just says "yes, this is a great idea and we as an industry are glad that someone attempted it". Doesn't mean it actually works well. I'd like to see if it was compared against the tuning efforts of expert installers/tuners, and found to be as good or better.


I try not to underestimate the importance of car audio competitions, but perhaps you're giving them more credit than you ought to? 

The EISA committee is comprised mainly of magazine article writers, reviewers and such; having followed its history through the years, never once have I seen a product not worthy of its award. 

The P99RS is a great piece of equipment. Whether it has a good auto-EQ function or not is totally irrelevant and believe me, not one competitor would go in the lanes without having done his own tuning, therefore your arguement is kind of moot? 

In fact, the P99RS is in most aspects better than the P90 combo, which it replaced. Is/was the P90 successful in comps? I'll let you answer that. :laugh:

In the end though, I don't think there's really a comparison between the two. What if the Pioneer is this or that? There are certain things it can't do, that the MS-8 will. Every product out there has its buyer.


----------



## Sex Cells

kkant said:


> Has it won any comps, perhaps EU-wide? If you have links, that would be great! Product of the year from an industry organization...doesn't really cut it for me. To me that just says "yes, this is a great idea and we as an industry are glad that someone attempted it". Doesn't mean it actually works well. I'd like to see if it was compared against the tuning efforts of expert installers/tuners, and found to be as good or better.


lol, you mean the comps that are _anything but_ *objective*?


----------



## kkant

n_olympios said:


> I try not to underestimate the importance of car audio competitions, but perhaps you're giving them more credit than you ought to?


If there was some other venue for comparing an auto-tune to the work of pro-tuners, I'd be all for it. 



n_olympios said:


> The EISA committee is comprised mainly of magazine article writers, reviewers and such; having followed its history through the years, never once have I seen a product not worthy of its award.


I'm still skeptical. 



n_olympios said:


> The P99RS is a great piece of equipment.


How so, in SQ terms?



n_olympios said:


> Whether it has a good auto-EQ function or not is totally irrelevant and believe me, not one competitor would go in the lanes without having done his own tuning, therefore your arguement is kind of moot?


Ultimately, a theoretically perfect auto-tune is the *most* relevant thing for SQ. And as to competitor-tuning...the whole point is that the MS8 went in the lanes without a pro doing the tuning. And it beat all the pro-tuned cars. Can the Pioneer auto-tune do that? If so, I'd be very interested.


----------



## kkant

Sex Cells said:


> lol, you mean the comps that are _anything but_ *objective*?


Again, if there is a better way to evaluate an auto-tune against the work of pros, I'd be interested in those results as well.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

I thought we had already witnessed the death of auto-tune? =)

for real, I am actually wondering right now whether I should do the P99RS or just hold out for the MS8


----------



## AWC

I've used most of the things Andy has gone over here and had great 5.1 auto0tune results. It takes worjk...as if it weren't auto-tune at all, but in the end, I think it comes out better than plain ole' stereo. The center channel, appropriately processed is very nice.


----------



## n_olympios

kkant said:


> If there was some other venue for comparing an auto-tune to the work of pro-tuners, I'd be all for it.


How about your ears?



kkant said:


> How so, in SQ terms?


Yes. And also in flexibility, build quality, ease of use and upgrade options. Not to mention looks. 



kkant said:


> Ultimately, a theoretically perfect auto-tune is the *most* relevant thing for SQ. And as to competitor-tuning...the whole point is that the MS8 went in the lanes without a pro doing the tuning. And it beat all the pro-tuned cars. Can the Pioneer auto-tune do that? If so, I'd be very interested.


kkant, I'm pretty sure that the MS-8's auto-tune will be much better than the one in the Pioneer. After all, that's what it is designed to do and from what I've read, it'll probably be the best out there. But comparing the two is just unnecessary, they're hardly direct competitors. The Pioneer gives you the tools to set the system up correctly and the MS-8 does it for you. Whichever path you choose to take is your own choice. 

Disclaimer: let me state at this point that whilst I've used most Pioneer products I've never owned one myself, and will not be getting a P99RS any time soon, nor do I feel I need to advertise or defend it; I just like a good arguement. 

Hopefully I'm getting my point across correctly, being a foreigner doesn't help either, you know.


----------



## 14642

If I could find more than 4 installers anywhere in the world who could actually tune a car to sound good, then auto-tune wouldn't be so important. Plenty of folks from other companies have tried (and so have I) to teach installers to make cars sound great, but there's just no way to make it possible for consumers to get the right experience predictably. I'd say that if you really want a useful evaluation of the value of any auto-tune, then the comparison shouldn't be between a car tuned by someone who knows how to do it and an auto-tune, but between an auto-tune and a car tuned by someone who has no clue.

In any case, I'm a damn good tuner and I can do a better job than MS-8 for ONE seat, but I have to have a hundred bands of parametric EQ, separate channels for every driver, time alignment and a fully adjustable logic-7 implementation, all pas filter capability, a microphone array a mic preamp with a multiplexer, A PC and two weeks. MS-8 does it in about 2 minutes. 

I can't do what MS-8 does for both seats simultaneously no matter what equipment I have in less than a month. 

Hmmm...maybe I don't know how to tune cars...


----------



## rommelrommel

Any chance of getting dimensions? Even approximate would be great, starting my build soon hopefully. 

Thanks!


----------



## kkant

n_olympios said:


> How about your ears?


Sure, if I could hire some world-class expert tuners to personally set up my system. After that I'll just have to figure out what to do with the rest of my lottery money.  Comps are obviously not a perfect venue for comparing SQ of different approaches, but they are better than any reasonable alternative I can think of.



n_olympios said:


> kkant, I'm pretty sure that the MS-8's auto-tune will be much better than the one in the Pioneer. After all, that's what it is designed to do and from what I've read, it'll probably be the best out there. But comparing the two is just unnecessary, they're hardly direct competitors. The Pioneer gives you the tools to set the system up correctly and the MS-8 does it for you. Whichever path you choose to take is your own choice.


Right, these are not quite comparable products. Except that the Pioneer has an autotune, which is the feature that I would be most interested in--so in that sense they are competitors. I don't have the tuning ability of a top-notch competitor. Even if I did, I would prefer that a machine do the tuning for me, as long as the machine could do as good a job of it as me.

So I will go back to my original question (or a variant thereof). Has the Pioneer auto-tune been tested against a pro-tuned car, to determine which has the best SQ?


----------



## mattchan2000

This processor has been discuss since Jan2007 till now and I'm still waiting ...3years.....still can't get, anyone know why?


----------



## rommelrommel

mattchan2000 said:


> This processor has been discuss since Jan2007 till now and I'm still waiting ...3years.....still can't get, anyone know why?


Cliffs:

Got announced when it was a prototype, difficulty of making it work all the time with every car was "misunderestimated" to borrow a word I love.

Big announcement coming during SBN's in March, so hopefully we'll see this on the streets soon.


----------



## n_olympios

kkant said:


> So I will go back to my original question (or a variant thereof). Has the Pioneer auto-tune been tested against a pro-tuned car, to determine which has the best SQ?


I'm guessing no, as noone would get into the hassle. You'd have to have a good pro-tuned car with 2 saved settings, one by the tuner and one by the P99 itself. Big deal. Pioneer's auto tune function is, I believe, exactly the same as the previous units. Pioneer's engineers didn't design the P99RS with the autotune as its primary feature. The JBL ones did. 



kkant said:


> Right, these are not quite comparable products. Except that the Pioneer has an autotune, which is the feature that I would be most interested in--so in that sense they are competitors. I don't have the tuning ability of a top-notch competitor. Even if I did, I would prefer that a machine do the tuning for me, as long as the machine could do as good a job of it as me.


Then get the MS-8, when it comes out. If it's only the autotune function you care about, the JBL will be miles better than the Pioneer. 

I think you're missing the point a bit though. With the Pioneer you get a full headunit, the JBL is "only" a processor. So there are other aspects to this as well: do you want to keep your stock HU? do you already have a good aftermarket HU you'd want to pair with the MS-8? would the MS-8 paired with a ****ty stock HU sound better than the P99 (or any equivalent HU)?


----------



## Ari

n_olympios said:


> would the MS-8 paired with a ****ty stock HU sound better than the P99 (or any equivalent HU)?


It's a good point. With the MS-8 doing all the processing, the only real factors from a H/U -OEM or aftermarket- are if it has good DACs and transport. And even then, I'd venture to say a mediocre deck will be competitive vs. a properly tuned system using a P99 or equiv.


----------



## mattchan2000

rommelrommel said:


> Cliffs:
> 
> Got announced when it was a prototype, difficulty of making it work all the time with every car was "misunderestimated" to borrow a word I love.
> 
> Big announcement coming during SBN's in March, so hopefully we'll see this on the streets soon.


Hmm....lets hope we don't have to drag another 3years as it seem like a great processor worth getting. I'm still running passive because of this beauty.


----------



## Sex Cells

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If I could find more than 4 installers anywhere in the world who could actually tune a car to sound good, then auto-tune wouldn't be so important. Plenty of folks from other companies have tried (and so have I) to teach installers to make cars sound great, but there's just no way to make it possible for consumers to get the right experience predictably. I'd say that if you really want a useful evaluation of the value of any auto-tune, then the comparison shouldn't be between a car tuned by someone who knows how to do it and an auto-tune, but between an auto-tune and a car tuned by someone who has no clue.
> 
> In any case, I'm a damn good tuner and I can do a better job than MS-8 for ONE seat, but I have to have a hundred bands of parametric EQ, separate channels for every driver, time alignment and a fully adjustable logic-7 implementation, all pas filter capability, a microphone array a mic preamp with a multiplexer, A PC and two weeks. MS-8 does it in about 2 minutes.
> 
> I can't do what MS-8 does for both seats simultaneously no matter what equipment I have in less than a month.
> 
> Hmmm...maybe I don't know how to tune cars...


curious, what setup do you have in your vehicle?

also, will this technology be making its way to OEMs?


----------



## Luke352

Sex Cells said:


> curious, what setup do you have in your vehicle?
> 
> also, will this technology be making its way to OEMs?


Go back through his posts he does mention it, I think it was probably in the last 5 pages.


----------



## Sex Cells

Luke352 said:


> Go back through his posts he does mention it, I think it was probably in the last 5 pages.


gracias


----------



## Fast1one

kkant said:


> Sure, if I could hire some world-class expert tuners to personally set up my system. After that I'll just have to figure out what to do with the rest of my lottery money.  Comps are obviously not a perfect venue for comparing SQ of different approaches, but they are better than any reasonable alternative I can think of.
> 
> Right, these are not quite comparable products. Except that the Pioneer has an autotune, which is the feature that I would be most interested in--so in that sense they are competitors. I don't have the tuning ability of a top-notch competitor. Even if I did, I would prefer that a machine do the tuning for me, as long as the machine could do as good a job of it as me.
> 
> So I will go back to my original question (or a variant thereof). Has the Pioneer auto-tune been tested against a pro-tuned car, to determine which has the best SQ?


I think even if the pioneer could do a decent job of fixing the response, it won't compare to the MS-8 because it doesn't use complex algorithms to fix response. Only fixed Q adjustments.


----------



## 14642

Luke352 said:


> Go back through his posts he does mention it, I think it was probably in the last 5 pages.


Currently, I have a Mac Mini as a head unit that also does some spatial processing, an edirol audio interface and a pair of OE amplifiers from our OE group that also include a bunch of DSP for EQ and crossover. The amps are 12-channel x 20 watt versions. The DSP in those is programmable with a PC (and an interface box). Sub amp is a JBL BPX500.1. Speakers are a combintion of factory Volvo speakers and some other wierd stuff--nothing fancy in the speaker department.


----------



## 14642

Sex Cells said:


> also, will this technology be making its way to OEMs?


Almost all premium OE systems include some DSP. Some are simple IIR filters tuned by people and some are multi-tap FIR filters with autotune and fine tuned by people. The benefit in autotune for OE is in consistency and speed. For OE, it isn't necessary for the autotune algorithm to be resident in the amp. That can be located in a PC, one tuning per car model by trim level can be "burned" into the amp version for that specific model. 

These days, OE systems set the bar in terms of technology. There's nothing in the aftermarket that works like a high-end OE system.


----------



## kkant

n_olympios said:


> I think you're missing the point a bit though. With the Pioneer you get a full headunit, the JBL is "only" a processor. So there are other aspects to this as well: do you want to keep your stock HU? do you already have a good aftermarket HU you'd want to pair with the MS-8? would the MS-8 paired with a ****ty stock HU sound better than the P99 (or any equivalent HU)?


If I have a separate autotune, the HU doesn't really matter (from an SQ perspective). Whatever processing the P99 does is going to get EQ'ed out by the MS8, so I'd rather save my money and stick with the OEM HU for better integration.

Also I think Andy is spot-on regarding the technology in high-end OEM processors vs aftermarket.


----------



## kkant

Fast1one said:


> I think even if the pioneer could do a decent job of fixing the response, it won't compare to the MS-8 because it doesn't use complex algorithms to fix response. Only fixed Q adjustments.


Yeah. This kind of puts the lid on it.


----------



## DS-21

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> These days, OE systems set the bar in terms of technology. There's nothing in the aftermarket that works like a high-end OE system.


I wish more people would realize that. It would cause everyone to raise their game. Instead, their industry is going to die around them. 

Except for companies who can leverage their expertise in that arena to the aftermarket, such as Harman, of course.


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Almost all premium OE systems include some DSP. Some are simple IIR filters tuned by people and some are multi-tap FIR filters with autotune and fine tuned by people. The benefit in autotune for OE is in consistency and speed. For OE, it isn't necessary for the autotune algorithm to be resident in the amp. That can be located in a PC, one tuning per car model by trim level can be "burned" into the amp version for that specific model.
> 
> These days, OE systems set the bar in terms of technology. There's nothing in the aftermarket that works like a high-end OE system.



how would you compare this to MS-8 , for example:

19-active channels ("ways" indeed) DSP amp 

New Audi A8 - Bang & Olufsen
Bang & Olufsen Advanced Sound System - 2nd generat - Bang & Olufsen


----------



## 14642

Probably similar power output for the high frequency channels. Obviously the ICE power channels are bigger and used for subs and whatever else. 

The difference between them hasn't as much to do with the hardware as it does the software and the ability of the person or algorithm doing the tuning to do a great job. THe more we analyze what these factory amplifiers do, the more I'm convinced that there just aren't that many great tuners out there--aftermarket or OEM.


----------



## Sex Cells

I'll admit to sucking at tuning, and that i have few aspirations to be good. I suppose there is a lot of money to be made off people like me.


----------



## michaelsil1

Sex Cells said:


> I'll admit to sucking at tuning, and that i have few aspirations to be good. I suppose there is a lot of money to be made off people like me.


I think a lot of people suck at tuning. 

The trouble is some people like it hot and some don't. 

Andy even stated that the new revisions have the unit a little to Bass heavy for his taste. The good thing is that it will allow us to adjust the amount of Bass and keep it from localizing.


----------



## Sex Cells

michaelsil1 said:


> I think a lot of people suck at tuning.
> 
> The trouble is some people like it hot and some don't.
> 
> Andy even stated that the new revisions have the unit a little to Bass heavy for his taste. The good thing is that it will allow us to adjust the amount of Bass and keep it from localizing.


As long as i'm still able to ruin it by tweaking it how i want, i'm fine with that.


----------



## 14642

Sex Cells said:


> As long as i'm still able to ruin it by tweaking it how i want, i'm fine with that.


You'll be able to do plenty of damage. 

Fortunately, it'll be easy to start over. Just put the mic on your head and press "Go".


----------



## Sex Cells

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> You'll be able to do plenty of damage.
> 
> Fortunately, it'll be easy to start over. Just put the mic on your head and press "Go".


I'm anxious to finally have the chance to enjoy my Miley Cyrus albums in hi-fi.


----------



## Bizarroterl

Sex Cells said:


> I'm anxious to finally have the chance to enjoy my Miley Cyrus albums in hi-fi.


I seriously doubt the MS8 will be that good.


----------



## subwoofery

Bizarroterl said:


> I seriously doubt the MS8 will be that good.


You might be surprised... I'm sure it can transform Miley Cyrus voice into Whitney Houston's one and much more 

Kelvin


----------



## AWC

TPMS said:


> how would you compare this to MS-8 , for example:
> 
> 19-active channels ("ways" indeed) DSP amp
> 
> New Audi A8 - Bang & Olufsen
> Bang & Olufsen Advanced Sound System - 2nd generat - Bang & Olufsen


OOOO, I know how it will compare


The car with the MS8 will still be running when the waranty is up as oppoised to Audi sucking the life out of you and having you prefer a collerectal pollyp to this damned infernal machine and its damned 9000 dollar windshiled wipers.


----------



## quality_sound

Oh come on now, Audis/VWs aren't that bad. Certainly not the cheapest to maintain but far from the worst. 

If an MS-8 can make Miley Cyrus sound good I'm gonna buy a bunch of them and store them for later.


----------



## michaelsil1

quality_sound said:


> If an MS-8 can make Miley Cyrus sound good I'm gonna buy a bunch of them and store them for later.


I wonder if it can make Tiny Tim sound good?


----------



## death metal

hmmm... i dont know why MS-8 keeps popping up. i don't think it's coming out. i waited patiently for a long time. i've given up. i really wanted to try this processor out


----------



## quality_sound

michaelsil1 said:


> I wonder if it can make Tiny Tim sound good?


****in' Tiny Tim. I forgot all about his neurotic ass. 



death metal said:


> hmmm... i dont know why MS-8 keeps popping up. i don't think it's coming out. i waited patiently for a long time. i've given up. i really wanted to try this processor out


You know this is the MS-8 thread, right?


----------



## death metal

quality_sound said:


> ****in' Tiny Tim. I forgot all about his neurotic ass.
> 
> 
> 
> You know this is the MS-8 thread, right?





yeah, i'm fully aware of this. the ms-8 isn't gonna come out for a long time. just like the new idq8's and the idmax 15. keep holding your breath buddy


----------



## quality_sound

No one said it would. But coming to the MS-8 thread and saying it's never coming out is less than pointless.We all know it's been 3 years since the thread started since we've all been here quite a bit longer than you.


----------



## Sex Cells

There is no MS-8. Its just some twisted joke that gets passed around the Harmon offices. They check this thread weekly and just laughhhh and laughhh.


----------



## AWC

quality_sound said:


> Oh come on now, Audis/VWs aren't that bad. Certainly not the cheapest to maintain but far from the worst.
> 
> If an MS-8 can make Miley Cyrus sound good I'm gonna buy a bunch of them and store them for later.


LOL!

Check out how fun the CVT's are. $9000 for a 3 year old tranny that can't be repaired...Audi rocks!


----------



## quality_sound

What CVTs? Do you mean the Tiptronic or DSG? I don't remember VWAG ever using a CVT in any model.


----------



## Fast1one

People just don't understand that it takes a lot of R&D to ship a product that performs well. Take the BitOne as an example of rushing to get a product out in the market. In any project, the team runs into problems with the process. It isn't as simple as you make it out to be. 

If anything you should be privileged to have such a close relationship with the individual managing the project. It's not often that we see a product go from a concept to reality and receive constant updates on the steps in between. 

Cliffs: Stop your bickering and either enjoy the updates or move on. If you can't appreciate the work going into the project, your input on it's progress is worthless.


----------



## TPMS

AWC said:


> OOOO, I know how it will compare
> 
> 
> The car with the MS8 will still be running when the waranty is up as oppoised to Audi sucking the life out of you and having you prefer a collerectal pollyp to this damned infernal machine and its damned 9000 dollar windshiled wipers.



... too bad if you missed the extended warranty :blush:


for the comparo, apart from the "Volume Levelling system" who continuously detects the background noise, including sound generated by the air conditioning, engine and road, 
I intended their *"True-Image*™ Proprietary Bang & Olufsen up-mix algorithm for stereo and 5.1 multichannel, compared to Logic7 ...


----------



## ncv6coupe

Sex Cells said:


> There is no MS-8. Its just some twisted joke that gets passed around the Harmon offices. They check this thread weekly and just laughhhh and laughhh.


 Actually, there were functional prototypes that were in highly respected competition cars. And there are pictures floating around here somewhere in the 57 pages, lol search


----------



## Sex Cells

ncv6coupe said:


> Actually, there were functional prototypes that were in highly respected competition cars. And there are pictures floating around here somewhere in the 57 pages, lol search


I was kidding. I'm not exacty on a time crunch anyway. 

If this doesn't come out by the time i'm ready, _oh well_. 

At any rate, Andy mentioned JBL making an announcement at SBN.


----------



## AWC

quality_sound said:


> What CVTs? Do you mean the Tiptronic or DSG? I don't remember VWAG ever using a CVT in any model.


I know for a fact that the A6 3.0 tiptronic had a CVT. I know for a fact that they are dropping like flies faster than Audi can make new ones, hence the idea that there aren't a bunch around...they are all dead and still causing their poor owners a headache

Yes...my beloved Audi turned into the bane of my existence...at less than 80,000 miles it suffered a total catastrophic failure...and I'm still paying for it.


----------



## rugdnit

death metal said:


> yeah, i'm fully aware of this. the ms-8 isn't gonna come out for a long time. just like the new idq8's and the idmax 15. keep holding your breath buddy


While I really enjoy your " cup is half full " mentality it's really too bad that CA screwed up their boards so badly and that you ended up here. Please go buy something else. It's your loss.....buddy.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> *I'll have an announcement in the next few weeks*, but you can expect to see some activity at SBN in March.


Mark!?  (3 constitutes "a few" )


----------



## MaxPowers

death metal said:


> yeah, i'm fully aware of this. the ms-8 isn't gonna come out for a long time. just like the new idq8's and the idmax 15. keep holding your breath buddy


I cant hold my breath 2 months. Can you hold yours for us?


----------



## Wheres The Butta

what about people who love their bass localized and way too loud? like approximately 97% of those that spend money on car audio. Call them what you like, but that's the cash cow that drives the industry. How would the MS8 account for a setup in which the sub bass is intentionally under manual control only, such that it can not be manipulated by the processor? 

I'm just curious, because I plan on having my substage independent of the rest of the stereo because I don't like my subwoofer on very loud at all unless I'm listening to rap or drum N bass, and at that point I want it to play with extreme force....


----------



## death metal

i'm tired of looking at this thread. who can hold their breath for two years?


go figure...


----------



## Sex Cells

bd5034 said:


> what about people who love their bass localized and way too loud? like approximately 97% of those that spend money on car audio. Call them what you like, but that's the cash cow that drives the industry. How would the MS8 account for a setup in which the sub bass is intentionally under manual control only, such that it can not be manipulated by the processor?
> 
> I'm just curious, because I plan on having my substage independent of the rest of the stereo because I don't like my subwoofer on very loud at all unless I'm listening to rap or drum N bass, and at that point I want it to play with extreme force....


They could turn the gain way down or tweet the eq on the amp while the JBL piece is doing its measurements, or adjust the eq on the JBL after the fact...


----------



## quality_sound

Or just not run the bass through the processor. Run the sub out fro the HU right to the sub amp. Problem solved.


----------



## quality_sound

AWC said:


> I know for a fact that the A6 3.0 tiptronic had a CVT. I know for a fact that they are dropping like flies faster than Audi can make new ones, hence the idea that there aren't a bunch around...they are all dead and still causing their poor owners a headache
> 
> Yes...my beloved Audi turned into the bane of my existence...at less than 80,000 miles it suffered a total catastrophic failure...and I'm still paying for it.


A Tiptronic is not a CVT. A Tiptronic is a Tiptronic. A CVT is a CVT but I'm betting their marketing guys had soemthing to do with calling the CVT a Tip. 

Manumatic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Continuously variable transmission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your A6 did however have a CVT. I had to do some research since I was unaware VWAG ever used a CVT. Interesting. I can see why you didn't like it though. Anything in the VWAG lineup is expensive enough to repair. Add in a buggy, esoteric tranny used in only a few models and you'd definitely be looking at some astronomical repair bills.


----------



## quality_sound

death metal said:


> i'm tired of looking at this thread. who can hold their breath for two years?
> 
> 
> go figure...


The why the **** do you keep posting in it? Seriously.


----------



## TPMS

quality_sound said:


> A Tiptronic is not a CVT. A Tiptronic is a Tiptronic. A CVT is a CVT but I'm betting their marketing guys had soemthing to do with calling the CVT a Tip.
> 
> ---
> .


listening about CVT I can't but remind our fantastic 50cc motor-bicycle "CIAO", something like 30-40 years ago ... 
you could see somebody able to ride for kilometers .. on one only wheel . maybe some of them arrived till Germany


----------



## 14642

quality_sound said:


> Or just not run the bass through the processor. Run the sub out fro the HU right to the sub amp. Problem solved.


 
I've covered this before , but I'll do it again.

The processing inside MS-8 takes about 8 milliseconds. If you run the bass around the processor, it will be out of synch. MS-8 includes plenty of bass adjustment possibilities that are all simple to use. If you want separate control of the gain on the bass amp, then install the remote level control that comes with nearly all subwoofer amplifiers. Seriously, though. I don't think that will be necessary.


----------



## AWC

quality_sound said:


> A Tiptronic is not a CVT. A Tiptronic is a Tiptronic. A CVT is a CVT but I'm betting their marketing guys had soemthing to do with calling the CVT a Tip.
> 
> Manumatic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Continuously variable transmission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Your A6 did however have a CVT. I had to do some research since I was unaware VWAG ever used a CVT. Interesting. I can see why you didn't like it though. Anything in the VWAG lineup is expensive enough to repair. Add in a buggy, esoteric tranny used in only a few models and you'd definitely be looking at some astronomical repair bills.


It was a CVT WITH tiptronic, though. $9500 repair...total, with finance charges...$12,780

However, instead of replacing the tranny, I replaced the car. I am in love with my 96 Celica cuz she's loyal to me. She let's me know BEFORE a problem.

That tranny blew in a school zone at 20 mph....

However, to stear this back on topic, I now have rear-fill and a fantastic center speaker. This was all done in waiting for the MS8:worried:

I'm glad to have made it work with my own auto-tune, though and, therefore, have quite a bit of faith in this here product when it is announced...


Hey Andy....I know you are working hard to work out ALL the bugs but what if there is a bug...and it blows things up, will you help us through those terrible times?...say if the measurement tweets go full range instead of following the crossovers.

I only ask because this is DIYMA. We all do it ourselves. Lets face it, if we relied on "trained proffesionals" that will probably be the authorized dealers...we would have just started fishing long ago since our systems would sound terrible. We like to do it ourselves and if we follow your guidelines, here, will you save the day...if needed?


Just curious...not challenging you


----------



## Wheres The Butta

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I've covered this before , but I'll do it again.
> 
> The processing inside MS-8 takes about 8 milliseconds. If you run the bass around the processor, it will be out of synch. MS-8 includes plenty of bass adjustment possibilities that are all simple to use. If you want separate control of the gain on the bass amp, then install the remote level control that comes with nearly all subwoofer amplifiers. Seriously, though. I don't think that will be necessary.



Andy, I just wanted to take a second to say thanks for answering all the redundant questions. I'm grateful for it.


----------



## Knobby Digital

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I've covered this before , but I'll do it again.
> 
> The processing inside MS-8 takes about 8 milliseconds. If you run the bass around the processor, it will be out of synch. MS-8 includes plenty of bass adjustment possibilities that are all simple to use. If you want separate control of the gain on the bass amp, then install the remote level control that comes with nearly all subwoofer amplifiers. Seriously, though. I don't think that will be necessary.


AW, a while back you mentioned what happens to the xover point when you use the subwoofer level to boost/cut lowend. Since then, I've been using the headunit EQ (cut only) to control my lowend and it works out much better than the sub fader.


----------



## kyheng

Most important factor, does MS-8 have DRC?


----------



## quality_sound

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I've covered this before , but I'll do it again.
> 
> The processing inside MS-8 takes about 8 milliseconds. If you run the bass around the processor, it will be out of synch. MS-8 includes plenty of bass adjustment possibilities that are all simple to use. If you want separate control of the gain on the bass amp, then install the remote level control that comes with nearly all subwoofer amplifiers. Seriously, though. I don't think that will be necessary.


I understand that Andy. But if someone's _that_ worried about big bass I don't think a little phase issue is going to deter them.


----------



## kkant

kyheng said:


> Most important factor, does MS-8 have DRC?


Why is that the most important factor? Not necessarily arguing, just curious.


----------



## arby

quality_sound said:


> I understand that Andy. But if someone's _that_ worried about big bass I don't think a little phase issue is going to deter them.


or just fit a longer than average rca to bring it into alignment


----------



## 14642

DRC? Dynamic range compression? Be serious. And of course we'll be stand-up peeps about this product. In fact, we'll have a great website section devoted to this with yours-truly continuing to do this--but over there instead.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> DRC? Dynamic range compression? Be serious. And of course we'll be stand-up peeps about this product. In fact, we'll have a great website section devoted to this with yours-truly continuing to do this--but over there instead.


Maybe he meant digital room correction? Which I think you covered long ago when you talked about the MS-8 compared to Imprint.


----------



## subwoofery

t3sn4f2 said:


> Maybe he meant digital room correction? Which I think you covered long ago when you talked about the MS-8 compared to Imprint.


Or Digital Remote Control like the BitOne  

Kelvin


----------



## kyheng

kkant : Because Pioneer P9 combo have this stupid function enabled and cause some minor issues on sound reproductions. Make it sound digital and too processed sometimes. 

Andy Wehmeyer : Sorry Andy, my bad to suddenly jumps in and raise this.....

t3sn4f2 : Dynamic range compression or Dynamic range correction, you name it, is something like that. Frankly, some may able to hear the difference and some may not. But do you like when you listening some bass songs, the bass is hitting hard for longer period and another system for shorther period?


----------



## kkant

Ahh, I see. Well, I doubt the MS8 is going to have dynamic range compression.


----------



## t3sn4f2

kyheng said:


> kkant : Because Pioneer P9 combo have this stupid function enabled and cause some minor issues on sound reproductions. Make it sound digital and too processed sometimes.
> 
> Andy Wehmeyer : Sorry Andy, my bad to suddenly jumps in and raise this.....
> 
> t3sn4f2 : Dynamic range compression or Dynamic range correction, you name it, is something like that. Frankly, some may able to hear the difference and some may not. But do you like when you listening some bass songs, the bass is hitting hard for longer period and another system for shorther period?


I don't think that is what dynamic range compression is (never heard of dynamic range correction though). Dynamic range compression is when the louder portions of a song are either clipped off or processed to try to make them sound natural just not as loud. Which in tern opens up headroom for the average amplitude portion of the song to be made louder and closer to the maximum possible (which the now gone peaks use to reside). More then not it sounds like plain old clipping.


----------



## kyheng

^Sometimes clipping is what we want..... 
Just that if I have the way to disable this, it would be good. My system is quite good and the "Basstronic's Bass, I love you" can punch until I almost vommit when I crank it really loud. Still, what will happen if the combo does not have DRC? This is stunning me for quite some time.....

Just another simple question to all : What is our ultimate goal on sound reproductions? My goal is sound as natural as possible.


----------



## 14642

No, there's no dynamic range compression. there's plenty of that in popular recordings already.


----------



## kyheng

^That's good...... As long as this thing is not done before amps.... So we still can choose our favorite songs.


----------



## AWC

Hey Andy,

Can you confirm the Ipod controls?

I seem to remmeber that if "we didn't want the Ipod controls, we could use it as a black box"

Am I remembering that correctly?

If so, can you tell us how the signal is transmitted? Is it VIA analog or digital?

Did you figure out a way to make the analog signal enter the processor through another balanced diff input?

Does it control the Ipod at all?


----------



## t3sn4f2

AWC said:


> Hey Andy,
> 
> Can you confirm the Ipod controls?
> 
> I seem to remmeber that if "we didn't want the Ipod controls, we could use it as a black box"
> 
> Am I remembering that correctly?
> 
> If so, can you tell us how the signal is transmitted? Is it VIA analog or digital?
> 
> Did you figure out a way to make the analog signal enter the processor through another balanced diff input?
> 
> Does it control the Ipod at all?


The iPod option was pulled long ago.


----------



## Sex Cells

t3sn4f2 said:


> The iPod option was pulled long ago.


----------



## Bizarroterl

t3sn4f2 said:


> The iPod option was pulled long ago.


:2thumbsup:


----------



## t3sn4f2

Here's the official post......

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/607133-post327.html


----------



## 14642

Yeah, we nixed the iPod control. there's an aux in, though.


----------



## Sex Cells

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yeah, we nixed the iPod control. there's an aux in, though.


What was the reasoning? Just out of curiosity.


----------



## ibanzil

Prolly apple wanting money. Liscensing and all that bs prolly got in the way. Alot of us already have a headunit that does iPod, or don't care. Either way, it's gonna take some
cost off the top, so that's a plus.


----------



## Eiswritsat

Looks live a bad drive+play i really wish they would let go of that display design


----------



## gymrat2005

that's an old pic..here is the revised image http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio-sq-forum/8257-jbls-ms-8-processor-45.html#post887561. Although the display is the same, the unit looks a little more appealing to me.


----------



## Sex Cells

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> And here are some "spy shots" of some other stuff that's in the works.


oh, and what is this?


----------



## gymrat2005

not sure, new amp maybe.


----------



## Sex Cells

Andy needs to come clean about this witchcraft.


----------



## 14642

Dumped the iPod control because trying to keep up with all of the Apple software changes was too unpredictable and the complexity was just too much to deal with. I'd rather release a product that does what it does well, rather than a product that does some stuff well and some other stuff not so well. Because of the complexity of the rest of the product and the memory required, in order to do iPod control, we would have had to switch back and forth between one state when you're controlling the iPod and another state when you're controlling the DSP. Too much hassle.


----------



## Sex Cells

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Dumped the iPod control because trying to keep up with all of the Apple software changes was too unpredictable and the complexity was just too much to deal with. I'd rather release a product that does what it does well, rather than a product that does some stuff well and some other stuff not so well. Because of the complexity of the rest of the product and the memory required, in order to do iPod control, we would have had to switch back and forth between one state when you're controlling the iPod and another state when you're controlling the DSP. Too much hassle.


Reads right out of Good to Great.. 

What was the other device that was partially wrapped? Or is that still hush-hush?


----------



## TPMS

how long for that announcement ...
must wait for the new chinese year .. on monday 15th ?


----------



## subwoofery

Actually, it's on the 14th  

Kelvin


----------



## Babs

I predict a whole new amp line-up in class D and full range class D launched with the similar looking MS-8. Marketed as your full aftermarket audio solution, delivering world class tunes and tunability without spending a fortune.. Backed up with JBL comps, coax's and subs as your full OEM upgrade solution. Something like that Andy?

Maybe even levels of upgrade paths.. 
Level 1 - MS-8 by itself to oem speaks
Level 2 - MS-8 with sub amp and sub solution
Level 3 - MS-8 with sub setup and new speaks
Level X - MS-8 Multichannel.. Just add DVD head unit.


----------



## kkant

Nice thing about those amps, they look like they have digitally-configured preamps. *All* mid-fi amps should have had this a long time ago. Imagine no more analog pot gains, no more silly freq limitations, steeper slopes... Maybe it would have happened already if companies were not so concerned with magical gold-plated transistors for better "sound quality".


----------



## Babs

Agreed. After seeing the KAC-X4R Kenwood.. I'd love to see more mid-fi amps with DSP tuning capability also.. Hey wait, that's the MS-8! oh snap! Get it done Andy!


----------



## rugdnit

Babs said:


> I predict a whole* new amp line-up in class D and full range class D* launched with the similar looking MS-8. Marketed as your full aftermarket audio solution, delivering world class tunes and tunability without spending a fortune.. Backed up with JBL comps, coax's and subs as your full OEM upgrade solution. Something like that Andy?
> 
> Maybe even levels of upgrade paths..
> Level 1 - MS-8 by itself to oem speaks
> Level 2 - MS-8 with sub amp and sub solution
> Level 3 - MS-8 with sub setup and new speaks
> Level X - MS-8 Multichannel.. Just add DVD head unit.


Great.... if that is the case the whole anti full range class D $hit storm will start again.


----------



## kkant

rugdnit said:


> Great.... if that is the case the whole anti full range class D $hit storm will start again.


Was there any technical merit to the anti-D argument, or was it the usual audio snake oil voodoo ********?


----------



## rugdnit

I don't believe so, but it's amazing that more than a handful never gave Mantz a chance before listening to them and since they knew it was class D going in they never gave it a chance while listening to them. Perhaps he should have not said exactly what they were and see results then. In any manner let's keep this thread on topic-- I cannot wait for this to be released.


----------



## kkant

No doubt - this, and those amps as well.


----------



## rommelrommel

Thinking about this being released makes me want to pee my pants a little bit.


----------



## flomofo

I saw why the ipod controls were removed which sucks but I understand.

On my G8 and the new Camaro the climate controls are integrated into the radio, the factory head unit it is for me.

Even without the Ipod contols I'm assuming this things will still simplify my system by giving me good sound with only their processor and their amp to control my sub and all the door speakers (plan on running them all instead of just a front stage when this thing comes out).

The I'll get rid of my kenwood DSP amps from the trunk and replace it with the MS-8 and a set of speakers for the rear doors of my sedan!


----------



## Gary Mac

Is there an acutal legit release date for this unit? This is going to be the cornerstone of my new build and I am getting impatient. (As is everyone else Im sure)


----------



## SullyTT

Gary Mac said:


> Is there an acutal legit release date for this unit? This is going to be the cornerstone of my new build and I am getting impatient. (As is everyone else Im sure)


I would start looking at options. 

I'm in the same boat as you and I've narrowed it down to the Audison BitOne if this thing isn't released by April.


----------



## Gary Mac

What does a Bit one run?


----------



## rommelrommel

800ish new I think. Seen them go for as low as 500 on here used.


----------



## rugdnit

Gary Mac said:


> Is there an acutal legit release date for this unit? This is going to be the cornerstone of my new build and I am getting impatient. (As is everyone else Im sure)


I am sure most of us are impatient in part due to how much better this solution will be. Worth the wait IMHO.


----------



## 14642

These things are in the final stages of reliability testing now. As soon as that's over and they've passed we'll have a scheduled production date and then I'll know precisely when they'll arrive here.


----------



## [email protected]

^ I'm going to hide underneath my desk and hold my breath. When they're ready for sale someone please give my place a call and ask for the blue guy.


----------



## rommelrommel

Maybe Andy is holding out for post #2000 to release this, we should post whore some more!


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> These things are in the final stages of reliability testing now. As soon as that's over and they've passed we'll have a scheduled production date and then I'll know precisely when they'll arrive here.



so, supposing:
a- reliability testing will end up OK
b- production scheduled as usual

what ETA should be, per your experience ?
also in temrs of *"Not earlier than ...(week/month)"*

thanks!


----------



## t3sn4f2

My money is on 3 months before you can buy one.


----------



## bboyvek

t3sn4f2 said:


> My money is on 3 months before They announce that it will go into production someday and then you can buy one. So any time between the next 1 to 4 years


fixed


----------



## 14642

bboyvek said:


> fixed


 
Nice.


----------



## ItalynStylion

My system is weeping for this unit...I have it setup boo boo till release. I have my tweeters high passed with passives and my midbass running 80hz and up lol...I need this


----------



## TPMS

TPMS said:


> so, supposing:
> a- reliability testing will end up OK
> b- production scheduled as usual
> 
> what ETA should be, per your experience ?
> also in temrs of *"Not earlier than ...(week/month)"*
> 
> thanks!



my suggestion is to close and lock this thread till any answer will come from Harman's manager.

there's a time when you have to say just ...BASTA !


----------



## Sex Cells

I'd bet anything that snide remarks will expedite the process.


----------



## Salad Fingers

Sex Cells said:


> I'd bet anything that snide remarks will expedite the process.


Now that is funny!!!!!!!!!


----------



## 14642

Sex Cells said:


> I'd bet anything that snide remarks will expedite the process.


Actually, if snide remarks could have expedited the process, the development would have been finished before it began. Wait, that viloates the concept of causality...


----------



## Sex Cells

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Actually, if snide remarks could have expedited the process, the development would have been finished before it began. Wait, that viloates the concept of causality...


How can you be so sure that you wouldn't be half as far along without the help?


----------



## 14642

Sex Cells said:


> How can you be so sure that you wouldn't be half as far along without the help?


I can't. Thanks for the help.


----------



## Sex Cells

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I can't. Thanks for the help.


That's all i was asking for. Some recognition.


----------



## Sex Cells

Question.

I'm under the impression the MS8 will adjust the xover settings when it does its auto tune assuming you're running active. Will you be able to see what frequencies it crosses at as well as the slopes?


----------



## CraigE

Sex Cells said:


> I'm under the impression the MS8 will adjust the xover settings when it does its auto tune assuming you're running active. Will you be able to see what frequencies it crosses at as well as the slopes?



I was wondering about that also.


----------



## 14642

Nope. The actual settings that you input won't change, but as EQ is applied to all the channels to hit the target, the combination of the EQ curve and the crossover you input will be the response that's sent to the speaker. Make sense?


----------



## Sex Cells

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Nope. The actual settings that you input won't change, but as EQ is applied to all the channels to hit the target, the combination of the EQ curve and the crossover you input will be the response that's sent to the speaker. Make sense?


Yep. Is there an option to have it set the xover itself?


----------



## 14642

Sex Cells said:


> Yep. Is there an option to have it set the xover itself?


 
No, we didn't do that. There's another algorithm (not a Harman thing) that attempts to do that, but it makes a bad choice almost as often as it makes a good choice. We opted to leave that out and ask the user to make that choice, since it's a pretty easy one.


----------



## kkant

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, we didn't do that. There's another algorithm (not a Harman thing) that attempts to do that, but it makes a bad choice almost as often as it makes a good choice. We opted to leave that out and ask the user to make that choice, since it's a pretty easy one.


I am glad to hear that. Auto-xover selection would have been terrible.


----------



## rommelrommel

I can just imagine the blown speaker complaints...


----------



## 14642

kkant said:


> I am glad to hear that. Auto-xover selection would have been terrible.


Actually, one day I want these things to be able to determine the location of all of the speakers and the appropriate bandwidth automatically. Here's a hint--an array of three microphones and a quick impedance measurement could provide the rest of the information required. Then no user intervention would be required for setup. That would be cool. Connect the speakers and the inputs however you want, place the mics, press a button...done. Then draw whatever curve you want with the EQ.

Then, how about a touchscreen GUI that would allow you to change the placement of the center image, the left and right boundaries, distance to the stage and the room size by dragging your finger across the screen?


----------



## JayinMI

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Actually, one day I want these things to be able to determine the location of all of the speakers and the appropriate bandwidth automatically. Here's a hint--an array of three microphones and a quick impedance measurement could provide the rest of the information required. Then no user intervention would be required for setup. That would be cool. Connect the speakers and the inputs however you want, place the mics, press a button...done. Then draw whatever curve you want with the EQ.
> 
> Then, how about a touchscreen GUI that would allow you to change the placement of the center image, the left and right boundaries, distance to the stage and the room size by dragging your finger across the screen?


So, JBL MS-9?


----------



## 14642

I think it'll have to have a different name. Gotta make some less expensive and even easier to use products next.


----------



## ryancrouch

Going to be very interesting to see what the MS line includes!


----------



## Sex Cells

Andy, we still need to figure out what we're going to name this..

and what it is..


----------



## rommelrommel

Looks like an amplifier to me with digital xovers.


----------



## Sex Cells

Thats what i'm thinking, but i figure there could be more to it.


----------



## ryancrouch

I don't know what it is, but I imagine it will amount to some of my first few checks as a RN.


----------



## kkant

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Actually, one day I want these things to be able to determine the location of all of the speakers and the appropriate bandwidth automatically. Here's a hint--an array of three microphones and a quick impedance measurement could provide the rest of the information required. Then no user intervention would be required for setup. That would be cool. Connect the speakers and the inputs however you want, place the mics, press a button...done. Then draw whatever curve you want with the EQ.


That would be very cool if it could be done right. But is the impedance curve enough to determine the optimal bandwidth? That'll get you in the ballpark, but it seems to me that you would have to check for a couple more things to get the full picture.

On the low cutoff, you'd need to do large-signal measurements to determine when you reach a certain threshold of non-linearity. I guess these signals would have to be ramped up, to prevent blowing drivers. For this to work the user would have to specify how loud he wants the system to get.

On the high cutoff you'd want to check for non-linear effects that excite out-of-band cone breakup modes. Linear in-band cone breakup shouldn't be an issue since you just EQ it out. In choosing the xover frequency, there would have to be an optimization between minimizing the out-of-band non-linearity on the lower driver, and minimizing the excursion non-linearity of the higher driver.

Both of these checks would have to be done on each individual speaker. And there may be more stuff I am missing...



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Then, how about a touchscreen GUI that would allow you to change the placement of the center image, the left and right boundaries, distance to the stage and the room size by dragging your finger across the screen?


Very nice.


----------



## Gary Mac

When is the MS -9 coming out??


----------



## Gary Mac

I actually have a real question, will the MS-8 be able to produce a center channel signal with only front-rear and sub low level inputs?


----------



## MaxPowers

Gary Mac said:


> When is the MS -9 coming out??


December 21,2012. The Mayans got it wrong.


----------



## 14642

Gary Mac said:


> I actually have a real question, will the MS-8 be able to produce a center channel signal with only front-rear and sub low level inputs?


 
Yes. Logic7 (in MS-8) derives a center signal from a 2-channel source. If you're using low-level (RCA) from an aftermarket radio, only right and left inputs are necessary because those outputs are full range.


----------



## JayinMI

MaxPowers said:


> December 21,2012. The Mayans got it wrong.


Oh, good God I hope not. I can't deal with retail customers longer than that. 

Jay


----------



## rommelrommel

Every day of stock crap stereo makes me want this more and more lol.


----------



## Warbird777

Andy,

I'm dead certain this has been asked, but are we considering a group buy?
One can still dream...

Michael


----------



## rommelrommel

omg yes plz.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Hybrid Audio might do a group buy.
Stereo Integrity might do a group buy.


JBL? Huge companies like that don't really do group buys. But I'd love to eat those words. I'd love to eat those words as early as next month.


----------



## Shazzz

michaelsil1 said:


> I wonder if it can make Tiny Tim sound good?


The only thing that could make Tiny Tim sound good is Duct Tape, and of coarse the closing of his casket. LOL

With all due respect RIP


----------



## Shazzz

quality_sound said:


> No one said it would. But coming to the MS-8 thread and saying it's never coming out is less than pointless.We all know it's been 3 years since the thread started since we've all been here quite a bit longer than you.


AMEN!!!! I'm sure it's getting REEEEEEELY CLOSE. Can't wait. But damn Andy for god sakes HURRY my Blu Balls are about to EXLODE !!!


----------



## Shazzz

Sex Cells said:


> There is no MS-8. Its just some twisted joke that gets passed around the Harmon offices. They check this thread weekly and just laughhhh and laughhh.


If this ends up being the case, I'll be going to prison for a LOOOOONG TIME !!! 

Just kidding Andy. Relax. But if you see a strange car hanging outside your building... LOL


----------



## Bizarroterl

Since the recommended volume control is on the MS8 instead of the head unit - Can the MS8 volume be controlled from a steering wheel volume control while the other steering wheel controls continue to control the head unit?


----------



## ItalynStylion

<----also wants to know about the steering wheel controls. I have an eclipse headunit and they have graced me with the ability to retain my factory steering wheel controls and I'm NOT prepared to give them up.


----------



## t3sn4f2

No conventional steering control options available since the remote control communicates by RF and all steering wheel control interfaces are IR.

If it were possible you would still only be able to control the OEM head units and separate aftermarket device with a PAC dual function interface which goes in between the steering controls and the OEM head unit and assigns one button on the steering wheel to be a mode switch that switches the other remained steering buttons in between OEM functionality and aftermarket programed functions.


----------



## Bizarroterl

If I have to make a choice between trying to find a remote to adjust the volume while driving and steering wheel controls I'll select the steering wheel controls every time. It's too dangerous to be fumbling around for a remote while driving....


----------



## Gary Mac

Im confused, one cant use the OEM volume controls with the MS8?


----------



## Bizarroterl

You can. Most(?) head units adjust response based on volume, so controlling volume via the MS8 ensures the head unit won't be mucking up the setting the MS8 calculated. (At least as I understand it).


----------



## rommelrommel

Bizarroterl said:


> You can. Most(?) head units adjust response based on volume, so controlling volume via the MS8 ensures the head unit won't be mucking up the setting the MS8 calculated. (At least as I understand it).


That's pretty much it. I bought a PAC box that takes signal right off the CANBUS of my Chrysler before the factory amp does all it's eqing so I can use the factory volume control with the ms8 or whatever I use.


----------



## Gary Mac

Alright, same with the volume controls of other processors then.. Did not know if the MS 8 was advanced enough to overcome factory HU volume changes independently. 

So its just going to have a seperate volume knob we have to mount somewhere?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Gary Mac said:


> Alright, same with the volume controls of other processors then.. Did not know if the MS 8 was advanced enough to overcome factory HU volume changes independently.
> 
> So its just going to have a seperate volume knob we have to mount somewhere?


A remote control with volume buttons on it, nothing else.


----------



## trigg007

so essentially your head unit becomes a tuner/transport with volume control & the MS-8 serves as the master volume/DAC/processing, etc...


----------



## t3sn4f2

trigg007 said:


> so essentially your head unit becomes a tuner/transport with volume control & the MS-8 serves as the master volume/DAC/processing, etc...


If you are going that route.....it's more like the head unit handles "master volume" and the MS-8 is an overall attenuator in any position other then max on _its own_ master volume. Such as when you want to give you car to a valet but don't want him to blow the speakers. You lower the MS-8 master volume and everything works like always except the maximum system volume is limited.


----------



## matt1212

bobditts said:


> maximum input voltage is 2V??? that is dang low! Guess all eclipse and most alpine users wont be getting one. are they trying to attract customers or drive them away? that right there will put a large group of people on the "cant buy it" list.


And Pioneer F90BT users....


----------



## t3sn4f2

matt1212 said:


> And Pioneer F90BT users....


This issue has been addressed a few times before. It will work fine with those higher preamp voltage head units.

Post #243 and #244


----------



## trigg007

t3sn4f2 said:


> ....it's more like the head unit handles "master volume" and the MS-8 is an overall attenuator in any position other then max on _its own_ master volume.


Your explanation appears contradictory. Either way I understand what you are attempting to explain and appreciate the "valet" suggestion.


----------



## monkeyboy

I use my Bit 1 the same way. I still use the head unit volume for daily use, and I crank back on the Bit 1 volume when I hand it to a valet. I have muted the sub as well


----------



## rommelrommel

ItalynStylion said:


> Hybrid Audio might do a group buy.
> Stereo Integrity might do a group buy.
> 
> 
> JBL? Huge companies like that don't really do group buys. But I'd love to eat those words. I'd love to eat those words as early as next month.


Maybe a dealer might. 

I imagine I'll have to source one from the US anyways, Canada doesn't even warrant a country listing on the JBL site. I can't even think of anyone that sells JBL car sadly.


----------



## 14642

Deleted... after I recovered from jet lag. I'm in China helping to install an MS-8 and doing a little training.


----------



## 14642

rommelrommel said:


> Maybe a dealer might.
> 
> I imagine I'll have to source one from the US anyways, Canada doesn't even warrant a country listing on the JBL site. I can't even think of anyone that sells JBL car sadly.


I'll find you one in Canada. No worries.


----------



## VP Electricity

Or maybe you should get condescending and sarcastic in a thread about a product you've already shipped. 

We both know that there's no business position in being right. You have a huge challenge in front of you as an organization to make any "different" product a success through the indirect distribution channel you're married to. Given that your basic speaker-and-amp program is losing ground with independents, your opportunities to win with this are limited already due to fewer placements. On top of that your org doesn't seem to have good communication skills out to the channel. Good luck.

I look forward to seeing this thing in action, but Andy, these ever-lovin' DIYers are gonna need to pull your demand train. 

And most OE HUs do not have volume-dependant dynamic EQ, not even auto-loudness, which does not need to be reversed, as Andy points out.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Ok, so if we're running an aftermarket headunit (say an AVN726e) that does NOT have volume dependent EQ....can we use the stock volume control? That shouldn't change the EQ curve correct?


----------



## 14642

For VP Electricity, didn't mean to be condescending, but constantly doing battle with the hypesters wears me out. I'd just like to help people be successful building their systems and all of this snake-oil designed to sell me-too stuff doesn't do anyone any good. 

Finally, I recognize our difficulties. Great products are one way out, and I'm doing all I can to make them a reality. Marriages sometimes end in divorce. FWIW, the entire basic speaker and amp business is losing ground with consumers in all developed markets. Car audio needs a pick-me-up and more gold-plated PC boards, proprietary connectors and hocus-pocus won't do it this time.


----------



## 14642

ItalynStylion said:


> Ok, so if we're running an aftermarket headunit (say an AVN726e) that does NOT have volume dependent EQ....can we use the stock volume control? That shouldn't change the EQ curve correct?


Yes, that'll work fine.


----------



## JayinMI

The idea I had re: Steering Control Volume interface was like this:
Intercept the wire (or wires) that send the signal to the head unit from the buttons on the steering wheel. Run them into the processor. Setup the software so that basically you program the steering wheel control volume buttons to it. When the unit sees the signal from the Volume Up/Down button it adjusts the volume in the processor, but has an output wire that continues on to the head unit for all the other functions.

Currently, no one seems to do this, so obviously this isn't going to work with the MS-8 or the BitOne or whatever.

And the down side would be that if you adjust the volume from the knob on the head unit itself, this will not adjust the volume from the processor (tho this might be a good option since you could use the knob to slightly adjust levels between sources?)

Seems like a simple enough idea to implement. And considering that just about everyone that uses some sort of outboard piece to integrate with a (generally) factory head unit hates having to use a seperate volume control, I'm surprised some company somewhere hasn't done it.

Maybe the MS-9 

Jay


----------



## ItalynStylion

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, that'll work fine.


Thank God. I can resume being excited.


----------



## JayinMI

Hey! This is a family forum!


----------



## Lee Rambler

so is the MS8 still not officially released? Our rep told me he can get me one and that they are shipping.... but it sure doesn't sound like it?


----------



## ItalynStylion

Lee Rambler said:


> so is the MS8 still not officially released? Our rep told me he can get me one and that they are shipping.... but it sure doesn't sound like it?


Tell him.....proof or ban


----------



## 14642

Lee Rambler said:


> so is the MS8 still not officially released? Our rep told me he can get me one and that they are shipping.... but it sure doesn't sound like it?


Hey Lee,
No, he's not telling you the truth, but don't hold it against him...he's a rep. 

BTW, I see you're at WeeBee and I'm glad to see that you guys are still around. I visited your store years ago--maybe 8 or 10 years ago when we were launching another series of products that took years to develop.


----------



## Gary Mac

Lee, are you at the Wee Bee AV in Lancaster PA?


----------



## dave7

This MS-8 from JBL is interesting. 
I've been doing some research on the Audison Bit One, because I wanted to purchase one. But now I think I will wait a little longer for this to come out. I hope I will not be too disapointed .


----------



## Lee Rambler

Gary Mac said:


> Lee, are you at the Wee Bee AV in Lancaster PA?


yes, that's us. 

10 years ago I would have still been running the 12v side of things, quite possible I would have met you Andy... starting to get old and my memory isn't what it used to be....

I don't really have much to do with the car side anymore, I run our custom home division now - but I still have an affinity for mobile


----------



## BMWTUBED

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Deleted... after I recovered from jet lag. I'm in China helping to install an MS-8 and doing a little training.


Where at in China? I'm in Shanghai for part of this week and would sure like to have a listen


----------



## Shazzz

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Deleted... after I recovered from jet lag. I'm in China helping to install an MS-8 and doing a little training.


Hey Andy WTF !!?? How about giving us a little advanced warning. I'm on my way to Singapore so I HOPE you brought another unit for me. Screw the training. I just learned how to read and if the manual has pics (preferably cartoon type pics) I'll figure the damned thing out myself. 

And REEEEAAALLYYYY nice that you get China's back before feeding our GOD BLESSED USA FOLKS !!!  :laugh:


----------



## 14642

They have health care in China too. Sorry about the food.


----------



## Shazzz

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Deleted... after I recovered from jet lag. I'm in China helping to install an MS-8 and doing a little training.


J EEPERS
B OY
L OOKOUT

Me n Wally really gunna fix u when yall get back !!! :laugh:


----------



## Shazzz

Hey Andy I forgots ta ask ya. Can I hooks this thingamajigur to my Bose Lifestyle system? Shuks I recon with jist a teeency bit more processin i'll haves me the best awdiofyle home systim money can buys me. 

Jist pleese dont keeps me a waitin a nuther 3 years cuz ifn ya do Bose jist might figur this thing out first n charge me a purdy penny fer a new car Lifestyle MS-48. Then i'll jist puts it in me trakter n wala!!! Witch means yall J ist B een L ate n wont git my purdy penny :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## Shazzz

Oh n us farmn boys dont need no stinkn health care. We eats lots a corn n beans n keeps us fit is a mule. SO let china puts that in ther pipes n smokes it :laugh:


----------



## Shazzz

Now ifn we dont haves us a MS-8 by dis summer we jist gunna buy Bose n send a linch mob possi aftr yur china luvn ass !!!


----------



## Shazzz

So get crakkin before we gets ta smakkin PLEEEZ


----------



## Bizarroterl

This is just a suggestion, but you may want to cut back on the caffeine a little bit...


----------



## rommelrommel

Shazzz said:


> J EEPERS
> B OY
> L OOKOUT
> 
> Me n Wally really gunna fix u when yall get back !!! :laugh:


lol, I am imagining that keg in your avatar as "wally"


----------



## Grim0013

rommelrommel said:


> lol, I am imagining that keg in your avatar as "wally"


Exactly what I was thinking. Now, back to Guinness and (cheap - $13.90 for a handle!) vodka. Yes, my chaser costs more than my liquor.

And a toast to this bastard getting released by the time the weather gets decent enough to start the Grand National install. (knock on wood...or processed wood chips and glue, in the case of my desk.)


----------



## Shazzz

Bizarroterl said:


> This is just a suggestion, but you may want to cut back on the caffeine a little bit...


LOL. Just having a little fun with Mr Andy this morning in my boredom But suggestin well taken. Seriously though, I don't know who will be happier, Andy for finally getting the MS-8 to market or us for finally getting the unit in our hands after 3 years of waiting. I can tell you this though, my blue balls are ready to explode !!! LOL


----------



## Shazzz

rommelrommel said:


> lol, I am imagining that keg in your avatar as "wally"


Actually Wally is the Tazmanian Devil inside the keg. LOL


----------



## Shazzz

Grim0013 said:


> Exactly what I was thinking. Now, back to Guinness and (cheap - $13.90 for a handle!) vodka. Yes, my chaser costs more than my liquor.
> 
> And a toast to this bastard getting released by the time the weather gets decent enough to start the Grand National install. (knock on wood...or processed wood chips and glue, in the case of my desk.)


HERE HERE !!!


----------



## [email protected]

Too bad this site doesn't have a multi-quote feature...


----------



## Gary Mac

I have a question about the center channel output, it sounds like it will be an amped signal coming out of the ms8 unit?? Will this be something we can amplify, or no?


----------



## kkant

Both amped and low level outputs.


----------



## rain27

Is the big news regarding release date really only a week away?!!!


----------



## Grim0013

rain27 said:


> Is the big news regarding release date really only a week away?!!!


I refuse to believe it until it comes to pass.


----------



## Shazzz

[email protected] said:


> Too bad this site doesn't have a multi-quote feature...


You just have to manipulate it. So let's test it out 



rain27 said:


> Is the big news regarding release date really only a week away?!!!


I'm with Grim0013 on this one 



Grim0013 said:


> I refuse to believe it until it comes to pass.


Again DITTO


----------



## Thunderplains

rain27 said:


> Is the big news regarding release date really only a week away?!!!


Don't hold your breath...


----------



## DAT

Updates please I want to order one.


----------



## fastlane

Shazzz said:


> Now ifn we dont haves us a MS-8 by dis summer we jist gunna buy Bose n send a linch mob possi aftr yur china luvn ass !!!





Shazzz said:


> So get crakkin before we gets ta smakkin PLEEEZ





Shazzz said:


> LOL. Just having a little fun with Mr Andy this morning in my boredom But suggestin well taken. Seriously though, I don't know who will be happier, Andy for finally getting the MS-8 to market or us for finally getting the unit in our hands after 3 years of waiting. I can tell you this though, my blue balls are ready to explode !!! LOL





Shazzz said:


> Actually Wally is the Tazmanian Devil inside the keg. LOL


Shazzz. Why don't you sit down and write out your thoughts first before you post. That way you can get them all into one post without having to make three or four additional useless follow up replies.  Or at least realize there is an edit button. That way I don't have to skip over half a page to find the pertinent information. 

I'm hoping the announcement is right around the corner. I'm just about ready to pull the trigger on a bit one, but would hold out if there is a *definitive* release date.


----------



## [email protected]

I cant believe this thread is still open, unit prob isnt ever coming out, or atleast it seems that way


----------



## Grim0013

fastlane said:


> Shazzz. Why don't you sit down and write out your thoughts first before you post. That way you can get them all into one post without having to make three or four additional useless follow up replies.  Or at least realize there is an edit button. That way I don't have to skip over half a page to find the pertinent information.



I think it was supposed to be a joke, dude. :surprised:

That said, using the reply feature to make a joke generally doesn't work as well as intended because people tend to think you really are just some idiot, and proceed with that assumption in mind.

Short version: don't do it.

It never works as intended. If you must pretend to be an idiot for the sake of the joke, be 'run-on sentence guy', or 'doesn't use paragraphs guy,' or some similar such. In a thread as long and intensely followed as this, people are likely to shoot first when 'successive reply guy' makes an appearance.

Now, time to go get to work on MS-8 preparations. It's sound/vibration damping week. Spectrum (and sludge) here I come.


----------



## ChrisB

BeatsDownLow said:


> I cant believe this thread is still open, unit prob isnt ever coming out, or atleast it seems that way


Sure it will... I think JBL will release the MS-8 when JL Audio releases the HD 1200/1.


----------



## rommelrommel

I don't think Andy would say the things he has and I don't thnk we'd see this popping up with new styling in competition cars if it wasn't really really close. 

I think Andy and the people at Harmon saw the clusterfuck of a release the bitone was and know this needs to be damn near perfect to get the market onboard. 

I think the offered explanation for most of the delays makes sense. Item was getting close, lead programmer quits, ****ing mess of undocumented code forces a full rewrite, some things don't go as quickly as hoped, makes sense to me. Harmon isn't exactly a fringe player like ID so I don't think the most revolutionary product in decades for car audio (assuming the auto tune works as described) is going to die on the table at the last minute.


----------



## fastlane

Grim0013 said:


> I think it was supposed to be a joke, dude. :surprised:


I'm generally astute enough to decipher when someone is joking around. That being said; you don't need unnecessary multiple replies to do it in. One would suffice just as well to get the "joke" across. .


----------



## Patrick Bateman

rommelrommel said:


> I don't think Andy would say the things he has and I don't thnk we'd see this popping up with new styling in competition cars if it wasn't really really close.
> 
> I think Andy and the people at Harmon saw the clusterfuck of a release the bitone was and know this needs to be damn near perfect to get the market onboard.
> 
> I think the offered explanation for most of the delays makes sense. Item was getting close, lead programmer quits, ****ing mess of undocumented code forces a full rewrite, some things don't go as quickly as hoped, makes sense to me. Harmon isn't exactly a fringe player like ID so I don't think the most revolutionary product in decades for car audio (assuming the auto tune works as described) is going to die on the table at the last minute.


Stranger things have happened... I mean, it wouldn't be the first time that a revolutionary car audio processor fizzled.










Symmetry Review

If I were Harman, I'd try to figure out how to license it to the car manufacturers themselves. Kind of the same idea as an XM radio, just have it built right into the car itself.


----------



## Technic

Patrick Bateman said:


> If I were Harman,* I'd try to figure out how to license it to the car manufacturers themselves.* Kind of the same idea as an XM radio, just have it built right into the car itself.


They already do it, it is called _Logic7_.


----------



## Shazzz

fastlane said:


> Shazzz. Why don't you sit down and write out your thoughts first before you post. That way you can get them all into one post without having to make three or four additional useless follow up replies.  Or at least realize there is an edit button. That way I don't have to skip over half a page to find the pertinent information.
> 
> I'm hoping the announcement is right around the corner. I'm just about ready to pull the trigger on a bit one, but would hold out if there is a *definitive* release date.


Geez Fast I was just having some fun. That's the type of personality I have. Some people need to chill and get a sense of humor and rid the dry one or simply ask and I'll send one for Christmas. LOL 

We are all hoping the release is just around the corner. In the meantime try to humerously find light in the situation so as not to make urself stir crazy, although I do understand the frustration of waiting what, 3 years? But we all share the same frustration... 

I don't know about you but I have a Logitech MX mouse that has a finger wheel which makes it speed through pages in mere fractions of a second. I'm about ready to get the new model. If you don't have a similar mouse I can always send you my old one and you can whiz through my posts in like .001 second.


----------



## fastlane

Shazzz said:


> I don't know about you but I have a Logitech MX mouse that has a finger wheel which makes it speed through pages in mere fractions of a second. I'm about ready to get the new model. If you don't have a similar mouse I can always send you my old one and you can whiz through my posts in like .001 second.


Yeah, but I can't find the one that sorts through the meaningless posts for me.  
I was half busting your balls. Most guys on here have a sense a humor and most don't.


----------



## Shazzz

fastlane said:


> Yeah, but I can't find the one that sorts through the meaningless posts for me.
> I was half busting your balls. Most guys on here have a sense a humor and most don't.



LOL. I gathered that. We were both busting each others balls with humerous sarcasm. :laugh:

Oh and let me know if you need the mouse. I never pull back an offer


----------



## rommelrommel

Patrick Bateman said:


> Stranger things have happened... I mean, it wouldn't be the first time that a revolutionary car audio processor fizzled.


Was the original Symmetry not released?


----------



## Grim0013

rommelrommel said:


> Was the original Symmetry not released?


I could swear I remember one of the guys who worked at Mobile Werks in Orland Park, IL had a Symmetry rack in his Del Sol or something back in the day.


----------



## quality_sound

Both versions of the Symmetry were available in retail but the first version was prohibitively expensive and the idea of changeable amp and processor cards went over like a turd in a punch bowl. Plus the damned thing was HUGE. The 2G version was much more successful.


----------



## rommelrommel

quality_sound said:


> Both versions of the Symmetry were available in retail but the first version was prohibitively expensive and the idea of changeable amp and processor cards went over like a turd in a punch bowl. Plus the damned thing was HUGE. The 2G version was much more successful.


Yeah, that's what I thought. I would say the most (in)famous vaporware processor has to be the IDOne...


----------



## Lee Rambler

I owned a g2 symmetry. was pretty cool for it's day. the time alignment dsp card was total bunk though, according to our rep I had all 5 that were available, none of which worked right. used it in 2 cars with the 28 band eq card though with great success.

using a bitone now, and while quirky it works pretty well. will be interested to try the ms8 when I can


----------



## whenwillitsnow

*I installed my JBL MS8 yesterday*

Well,
the long wait is finally over. I received my MS8 last week, yes I work for harman, so I guess I have an inside track. Anyway it is a pre production model, but very close to final. The unit included the MS8, Binaural microphone headset for tuning, a cool display for setup and tweaks, mounting hardware, the RF remote control, Setup CD, and wiring harnesses for inputs and outputs. 

I have a 2006 Dodge Durango with the factory rear seat DVD, In dash 6 disc changer, front and rear components and a factory subwoofer. The system was always mediocre at best. I lived with it. My first chore was to locate the factory amplifier under the passenger kick panel. I simply tapped into the front left and right door speaker and front left and right tweeter amplified outputs from the factory amp to inputs 1-4 on the JBL MS8. I had to run 12 speaker wires from the MS8 install location under the drivers side passenger seat. 4 speaker wires were for inputs to MS8 from Factory system and the other 8 were outputs fro the MS8 to the factory speakers. The front speakers in the Durango are bi-amped and the rears have a passive crossover. The factory subwoofer is a dual voice coil. I simply used the 8 powered channels in the MS8 to power the system. BTW, a hint, the owners manual has a page that allows you to write down all of the inputs and outputs so you know what you're using when it comes time for setup. Be sure to use it.

Since the factory amp turns from a CAN Bus control from the factory head unit, I powered the MS8's turn on from an accessory switch on the steering column. 

I ran a 4 gauge power up to the battery (i plan to add a JBL sub to the system later with another amp) and mounted the display for the MS8 on the dash. The remote has a magnetic flush mount bracket to hold it and it is very slick. I mounted it above the screen. the entire install process took about 2 hours. I had already printed all of the factory wiring info, so it was making a wire harness and crimping that took the most time.

Setup was very simple, i simply inserted the setup CD in my CD player and turned up the volume until the MS8 display said it was good for level, fader and balance. very easy. Then the display on the MS8 walks you through each step. first is to assign inputs and outputs. next I set the crossover points and then plug in the mic and sit in the drivers seat. The screen then tells you it will be running four tests. The first test is looking forward and there are a series of tones through the main channels. Second test is the same, but adds in tones through the subwoofer, next is to look at the drivers mirror and it runs the tones with all speakers and sub, finally the 4th test is look at the passenger mirror and all tones are run again through all channels with sub. that was it

What's cool is that you can instantly turn off Logic 7 and main processor for instant feedback of how it sounds compared to factory. I am using all factory everything and it sounds great. The bass from the factory sub has cleaned up and increased in intensity by 100 fold. While the system will play a little louder, maybe 2-3db max without distortion, the improvement is really in how it sounds, how it images, and just overall balance. Sort of like going from fm radio to CD. I have also included some screen shots from the setup and use screen
jbl ms8 install pictures by whenwillitsnow - Photobucket


----------



## whenwillitsnow

I installed my MS8 last night. jbl ms8 install pictures by whenwillitsnow - Photobucket


----------



## blownrunner

Just got home from Daytona. The JBL booth had two cars with the MS-8 installed. Gary's Regal and a Toyota. The Regal was competing with it and it was still being installed into the Toyota. I do not think they were prototypes but actual units. Distributors and retailers can now submit pre-orders for it, it will be shipping in May, and will retail for about $900 (as I recall), so I heard from the factory JBL guys. There was also literature all over the place about it. Lastly, I was told to look for info on it from the Harman International site in under 2 weeks. 

Thought you all might like to know...

Let me guess: you got sick of waiting and just bought a different processor.


----------



## ErinH

cool deal. Thanks for the update.


----------



## dave7

Very nice!


----------



## t3sn4f2

bikinpunk said:


> cool deal. Thanks for the update.


xxxx2


----------



## blownrunner

Holy feces! It's 11:30 pm on a Saturday and I got three responses to my post in five minutes! You all need to get a life


----------



## rain27

blownrunner said:


> Holy feces! It's 11:30 pm on a Saturday and I got three responses to my post in five minutes! You all need to get a life


We all have issues...obviously.

Can't wait for more details!


----------



## Wheres The Butta

yep it's raining in NJ and couldn't go out of the house so I watched a bad movie and ate half a tray of brownies. Now it's internetz time!


----------



## dave7

I've been waiting for this because it will be a key component in my build.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Coolness.....all I need before i get excited is confirmation from Andy that all of that is true. Then it's party time.


----------



## DAT

Which do you think will be the better processor?


----------



## donkeypunch22

Well then, we shall see what Andy says soon I hope.


----------



## rommelrommel

blownrunner said:


> Just got home from Daytona. The JBL booth had two cars with the MS-8 installed. Gary's Regal and a Toyota. The Regal was competing with it and it was still being installed into the Toyota. I do not think they were prototypes but actual units. Distributors and retailers can now submit pre-orders for it, it will be shipping in May, and will retail for about $900 (as I recall), so I heard from the factory JBL guys. There was also literature all over the place about it. Lastly, I was told to look for info on it from the Harman International site in under 2 weeks.
> 
> Thought you all might like to know...
> 
> Let me guess: you got sick of waiting and just bought a different processor.


I iz still waitn.


----------



## AdamTaylor

i have photos of the ms-8 mine is on order  post pics tomorrow.... SBN was awesome


----------



## subwoofery

AdamTaylor said:


> i have photos of the ms-8 mine is on order  post pics tomorrow.... SBN was awesome


Don't forget pics & *specs* of the amps too  

Kelvin


----------



## EEB

I wanted to check out the MS 8 at SBN and forgot all about it...


----------



## trigg007

You guys have the scoop! I called Harmon/JBL & Crutchfield. Crutchfield knows nothing. Harmon/JBL wouldn't volunteer info, but did somewhat confirm the May shipping without any specific date.


----------



## 14642

I am the information. We're working on the website and the rest of the information now.

Production has been authorized this morning and we're working to secure the last of the parts required to build the units.


----------



## rommelrommel

First!


----------



## trigg007

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I am the information. We're working on the website and the rest of the information now.
> 
> Production has been authorized this morning and we're working to secure the last of the parts required to build the units.



SWEET!!


----------



## traceywatts

woo hoo!!!!!


----------



## Steak

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I am the information. We're working on the website and the rest of the information now.
> 
> Production has been authorized this morning and we're working to secure the last of the parts required to build the units.


OMG Today is a happy day


----------



## Lanson

Wow! Now all I have to do is save my money all over again.


----------



## michaelsil1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I am the information. We're working on the website and the rest of the information now.
> 
> Production has been authorized this morning and we're working to secure the last of the parts required to build the units.


Andy, Had to hear it from you. 


When do you think it will hit the market?


----------



## WAwatchnut

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Production has been authorized this morning and we're working to secure the last of the parts required to build the units.


Congratulations Andy! As a Product Manager in a different industry, I know how big of a relief it can be to get that final approval - especially when the road's been as long as this one. Can't wait to see the finished product in stores!!!


----------



## ItalynStylion




----------



## michaelsil1

ItalynStylion said:


>


Damn! That's one big Cha Cha! :laugh:


----------



## 14642

Hey, the fat guy looks like me.


----------



## ErinH

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hey, the fat guy looks like me.


dead?


----------



## 14642

bikinpunk said:


> dead?


No, fat.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, fat.


In a van down by the river?


----------



## Technic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I am the information. We're working on the website and the rest of the information now.
> 
> Production has been authorized this morning and we're working to secure the last of the parts required to build the units.


Congratulations... :guitarist:


----------



## 30something

ItalynStylion said:


> In a van down by the river?


:laugh4:


----------



## matt1212

Hey Andy, 
I was wondering if you could explain the features of the ms-8 that make it a better processor than say a bitone. Ive heard it will revolutionize the digital processor industry but cant seem to find a list of key features anywhere.


----------



## strakele

ItalynStylion said:


>


They're dancing perfectly in beat with the Megadeth song I'm listening to at the moment!

Anyway, this is awesome that the MS-8 is finally going into production. Very exciting news.


----------



## Sex Cells

Fantastic


----------



## ErinH

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, fat.


well, he's dead, too.

Andy, are you typing from beyond the grave!?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I am the information. We're working on the website and the rest of the information now.
> 
> Production has been authorized this morning and we're working to secure the last of the parts required to build the units.


I hope there's not a run on Toslink connectors........


----------



## ItalynStylion

So since it's been "unveiled" at the show and is in production....can a brotha get some final pics and dimensions?!?!

I'm gettin blue balls here.


----------



## DAT

So since I have been waiting to decide on getting a Bit One.1 or a MS8 anyone know the major differences between them?


----------



## orangelss

Do they have a planned date for the first major upgrade/recall? LOL

Glad to here this is finally going to be a reality. Its prposed abilityies are truly aw inspiring.


----------



## Technic

matt1212 said:


> Hey Andy,
> I was wondering if you could explain the features of the ms-8 that make it a better processor than say a bitone. Ive heard it will revolutionize the digital processor industry but cant seem to find a list of key features anywhere.





DAT said:


> So since I have been waiting to decide on getting a Bit One.1 or a MS8 anyone know the major differences between them?


Read the very first post, please...


----------



## rommelrommel

Major difference has to be the auto tune. Ms8 also has the 8x20 amp, signal summing, de-eq, fully configurable outputs, logic7, etc etc.


----------



## AdamS

Here's my installation.

Lexus IS 250 Stock - MS8 - BP 300.1 - GT5 BR 1202

Much of the software was written with this car as a testbed.

Andy did the install himself.


----------



## rain27

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> And here are some "spy shots" of some other stuff that's in the works.


Was there any announcement about this device at sbn?


----------



## Sex Cells

rain27 said:


> Was there any announcement about this device at sbn?


I've tried man, I've tried.


----------



## matt1212

Soooooo.....Who do we talk to about preorders...?


----------



## DAT

matt1212 said:


> Soooooo.....Who do we talk to about preorders...?


yeah glad I waited , so it's either try this or grab a Bit one.1, I'll try this first..

if it's everything it supposed to be, might be some Bit one For Sale down the road.

Not taking anything away from Audison


----------



## donkeypunch22

NICE!!!!!! Congrats Andy. So happy for you man.

And to all the haters that hated on Andy and his team... $u(k a fat D!(k


----------



## quality_sound

Now the question is, run with the processing in the DC Refs or add this in front and bypass the processing? 

Decisions, decisions.


----------



## donkeypunch22

Quality, you and I got the same problem.


----------



## kkant

You can do both. Put the MS-8 in front, and in the (hopefully unlikely) event that there is some spike that the MS8 can't catch, smooth it with the Refs and re-run the ms-8 auto-tune.

BTW, did I mention.... ****ING KICK ASS. Congrats to Andy and the team.


----------



## Chaos

Hallelujah !!!


----------



## 30something

This latest news is giving me a raging clue!


----------



## 14642

kkant said:


> You can do both. Put the MS-8 in front, and in the (hopefully unlikely) event that there is some spike that the MS8 can't catch, smooth it with the Refs and re-run the ms-8 auto-tune.
> 
> BTW, did I mention.... ****ING KICK ASS. Congrats to Andy and the team.


If you want to do a full 5 or 7.1 system and bi-amp fronts, centers or rears, the additional processing can provide individual time alignment for those speakers and the additional high and low pass filters needed to implement such a system. The EQ in MS-8 is pretty powerful, but if you wanted to get things close and let MS-8 finish the job, that'll work too. You should use the bass control in MS-8 because it beats all others in terms of maintaining a stable illusion of bass up front--unless the boost you apply is out of hand.

Remember, though, that all channels must run through MS-8 to avoid latency isues.


----------



## 14642

Sex Cells said:


> I've tried man, I've tried.


Not yet. As soon as I have a final production-quality sample and measured specs, I'll post something. 

Here's a clue. They're amps and they're about 7.5" x 7.5" x 2.5".


----------



## 14642

Hey, thanks to Adam for making this happen.

Hey Adam, go to sleep already.


----------



## trigg007

quality_sound said:


> Now the question is, run with the processing in the DC Refs or add this in front and bypass the processing?
> 
> Decisions, decisions.


 Why make the system any more difficult that it need be? I would suspect that if you can't correct with DC ref or MS-8, the problem lies elsewhere.


----------



## rommelrommel

trigg007 said:


> Why make the system any more difficult that it need be? I would suspect that if you can't correct with DC ref or MS-8, the problem lies elsewhere.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If you want to do a full 5 or 7.1 system and bi-amp fronts, centers or rears, the additional processing can provide individual time alignment for those speakers and the additional high and low pass filters needed to implement such a system. The EQ in MS-8 is pretty powerful, but if you wanted to get things close and let MS-8 finish the job, that'll work too. You should use the bass control in MS-8 because it beats all others in terms of maintaining a stable illusion of bass up front--unless the boost you apply is out of hand.
> 
> Remember, though, that all channels must run through MS-8 to avoid latency isues.


^^^^


----------



## rcurley55

AdamS said:


> Here's my installation.
> 
> Lexus IS 250 Stock - MS8 - BP 300.1 - GT5 BR 1202
> 
> Much of the software was written with this car as a testbed.
> 
> Andy did the install himself.


That's about as simple as it gets!

Congrats Andy on getting this thing to market - I hope it lives up to the billing!


----------



## AdamTaylor

rain27 said:


> Was there any announcement about this device at sbn?


yes, not to the public but to distributors 

sorry for the ****ty pics... droid doesnt like weird lighting


----------



## matt1212

Andy, I'm about to install a KRX2 set and a set of KRC coaxials in the rear with a JL 450/4. 
Since i plan on getting an MS-8 when they're available, Would i be better off...

a. Running both sets passive (KRX2's of the 150w channels, coaxial of the 75w)

b. Running the KRX2's active (150w per midbass, 75w/tweet) and the coaxials off the headunit and in the future running the rears passive or active off the MS-8's amp

Which would be a more pleasing setup for the MS-8and give better sound? I was thinking the second so the tweets and midbass can have separate t/a since the tweets are going on the dash and midbass low in the doors but im not sure...


----------



## AccordUno

Spoke with someone at the JBL both from what I understood (loud noise floor), the first 500 units where sent out to one distributor(sorry forgot the name).. Was hoping to try to get a chance to listen to it, but too damn loud and getting run out every night after the show sucked..


----------



## rommelrommel

matt1212 said:


> Andy, I'm about to install a KRX2 set and a set of KRC coaxials in the rear with a JL 450/4.
> Since i plan on getting an MS-8 when they're available, Would i be better off...
> 
> a. Running both sets passive (KRX2's of the 150w channels, coaxial of the 75w)
> 
> b. Running the KRX2's active (150w per midbass, 75w/tweet) and the coaxials off the headunit and in the future running the rears passive or active off the MS-8's amp
> 
> Which would be a more pleasing setup for the MS-8and give better sound? I was thinking the second so the tweets and midbass can have separate t/a since the tweets are going on the dash and midbass low in the doors but im not sure...



I would say the second based on Andy's comments in the thread previously.


----------



## quality_sound

trigg007 said:


> Why make the system any more difficult that it need be? I would suspect that if you can't correct with DC ref or MS-8, the problem lies elsewhere.



The MS-8 does more than the DC Ref processing does.


----------



## Sex Cells

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Not yet. As soon as I have a final production-quality sample and measured specs, I'll post something.
> 
> Here's a clue. They're amps and they're about 7.5" x 7.5" x 2.5".


Ha, thanks. That'll hold me over for a while.


----------



## michaelsil1

AccordUno said:


> Spoke with someone at the JBL both from what I understood (loud noise floor), the first 500 units where sent out to one distributor(sorry forgot the name).. Was hoping to try to get a chance to listen to it, but too damn loud and getting run out every night after the show sucked..


High noise floor isn't a good sign.


----------



## rain27

michaelsil1 said:


> High noise floor isn't a good sign.


I think what he meant was it was noisy when he was in the JBL booth.


----------



## DAT

michaelsil1 said:


> High noise floor isn't a good sign.


LMAO Your funny 

I'm sure it was crazy LOUD all week at the show.


----------



## michaelsil1

rain27 said:


> I think what he meant was it was noisy when he was in the JBL booth.


Oh! :blush:


----------



## trigg007

quality_sound said:


> The MS-8 does more than the DC Ref processing does.



correct; I thought you were implying an interest to use both. I know Andy pointed out that one could use both (which seems redundant & a nightmare waiting to happen).


----------



## Lanson

michaelsil1 said:


> High noise floor isn't a good sign.


My eyes rolled into the back of my head until I realized we're not talking about the MS8 itself. 

The words "High Noise Floor" should never be used in a discussion revolving around car audio stuff unless we're actually talking about the actual noise floor. I was super-pissed until about 2 posts down someone mentioned they were talking about the event, not the unit.


----------



## rcurley55

trigg007 said:


> correct; I thought you were implying an interest to use both. I know Andy pointed out that one could use both (which seems redundant & a nightmare waiting to happen).


Doesn't seem like too much of a nightmare - overkill perhaps.


----------



## rommelrommel

trigg007 said:


> correct; I thought you were implying an interest to use both. I know Andy pointed out that one could use both (which seems redundant & a nightmare waiting to happen).


The crossovers would be nice to use but can't see any likely use of the EQ stage.


----------



## AdamTaylor

DAT said:


> LMAO Your funny
> 
> I'm sure it was crazy LOUD all week at the show.


yes it was, the incriminator audio booth was like 20 ft away and it was knocking insulation all over scott buwaldas, H.A.T. 240sx and every car near it. 


BTW: Scotts new build is sick


----------



## 14642

AccordUno said:


> Spoke with someone at the JBL both from what I understood (loud noise floor), the first 500 units where sent out to one distributor(sorry forgot the name).. Was hoping to try to get a chance to listen to it, but too damn loud and getting run out every night after the show sucked..


 
No, this isn't the case. No production units have been built yet, although the start of production is rapidly approaching.


----------



## rain27

AdamS said:


> Here's my installation.
> 
> Lexus IS 250 Stock - MS8 - BP 300.1 - GT5 BR 1202
> 
> Much of the software was written with this car as a testbed.
> 
> Andy did the install himself.


I may be behind the times here, but do stock speakers actually sound great in cars these days?


----------



## matt1212

rain27 said:


> I may be behind the times here, but do stock speakers actually sound great in cars these days?


Don't hate, at least he's running an MS-8...


----------



## AdamS

rain27 said:


> I may be behind the times here, but do stock speakers actually sound great in cars these days?


No sweeping generalization, but Yes, they can, especially with MS8.

One useful menu item in MS8 is 'Acoustic Measurement'. You can install an MS8 with your stock speakers, and run the full setup (a few minutes). Then, you can upgrade your system, piece by piece and get improvement with each upgrade, running only 1/3 of the setup process.


----------



## kkant

rain27 said:


> I may be behind the times here, but do stock speakers actually sound great in cars these days?


As Adam mentioned they can sound just as good as aftermarket, if EQ'ed right. The main benefit of better speakers then becomes louder volume capability with the same good sound quality.


----------



## ErinH

AdamS said:


> No sweeping generalization, but Yes, they can, especially with MS8.
> 
> One useful menu item in MS8 is 'Acoustic Measurement'. You can install an MS8 with your stock speakers, and run the full setup (a few minutes). Then, you can upgrade your system, piece by piece and get improvement with each upgrade, running only 1/3 of the setup process.


that's interesting.

more details on exactly what this is doing?

Are you saying that if you add new tweeters, then you tell the software that you have new tweeters and it reconfigures the setup focusing only on tweeter/midrange?


----------



## kobiejohn

Not sure if somebody has already posted but I heard this morning that it will start shipping June 1st @ 799.00 retail.


----------



## t3sn4f2

kobiejohn said:


> Not sure if somebody has already posted but I heard this morning that it will start shipping June 1st @ 799.00 retail.


It's $900 and no set date _just_ yet.


----------



## 14642

He's saying that the acoustic calibration process is si simple that if you replace a component, it's a 10 minute process to re-run the auto-EQ. If the only thing you change is tweeters, then the new calibration would address that, if all else is unchanged.


----------



## 14642

$799


----------



## ItalynStylion

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> $799


MSRP?


----------



## AccordUno

t3sn4f2 said:


> It's $900 and no set date _just_ yet.


you need to check with your source, I was told 799 as well..

Andy, I got misled then, good thing I didn't go speak to the Distributor.. Is there any change that later in the future their would be one without the amplification and maybe a tad bit smaller? It's small, I know, but maybe a little bit smaller since it won't need the amplified section?


----------



## t3sn4f2

AccordUno said:


> you need to check with your source, I was told 799 as well..
> 
> Andy, I got misled then, good thing I didn't go speak to the Distributor.. Is there any change that later in the future their would be one without the amplification and maybe a tad bit smaller? It's small, I know, but maybe a little bit smaller since it won't need the amplified section?


My mistake.


----------



## ItalynStylion

AccordUno said:


> Is there any chance that later in the future their would be one without the amplification and maybe a tad bit smaller? It's small, I know, but maybe a little bit smaller since it won't need the amplified section?


I've been thinking the same thing. It would be much cheaper to produce I'd think too.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy, during the setup, can we turn our head less in each direction in order to have smaller sweet spot with the benefit of increasing the forward looking sound? Or even more, not turn our head at all, so to get the most focused alignment?


----------



## kobiejohn

t3sn4f2 said:


> It's $900 and no set date _just_ yet.



The date is good as long as Harmen is good on what they are telling there reps.





ps I read it on the internet so it has to be true


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy, another question. What's the current draw on this thing when NOT using the built in amp?


----------



## rommelrommel

ItalynStylion said:


> I've been thinking the same thing. It would be much cheaper to produce I'd think too.


I doubt that the 20 watt IC amp costs much, probably minimal savings by the time you redesign and tool up for it on a relatively low volume item like this.

Think of it as an integrated line driver :smartass:


----------



## kkant

rommelrommel said:


> Think of it as an integrated line driver :smartass:


That's exactly the way I see it. I get a balanced high voltage line driver for free. I'll probably use the high-level outs from the MS-8 to the amps, and turn the pots on the amps all the way down.


----------



## DAT

kkant said:


> That's exactly the way I see it. I get a balanced high voltage line driver for free. I'll probably use the high-level outs from the MS-8 to the amps, and turn the pots on the amps all the way down.


So I won't need my Tru SSLD6i ? 

Awesome I got one coming from Biggs.... 


I'll be the 3rd person to have a MS 8 

oke:


----------



## Abaddon

It.... it's actually happening??? It's actually going to be released????

I could cry right now.......

/happy dance


----------



## WAwatchnut

I'm sensing a bunch of used 360's and BitOne's are going to start popping up for sales soon...


----------



## trigg007

Hi Andy,

I understand JBL is rebuilding their dealer network. If you can, could you please provide (PM me) the (potential) dealer for the GA (Atlanta) area...Thanks!


----------



## Lanson

Now I want to learn about the amps that match it.


----------



## kkant

fourthmeal said:


> Now I want to learn about the amps that match it.


Me also.


----------



## rommelrommel

If they are cool enough I could see moving to them. Maybe.


----------



## ryancrouch

Perfect timing! Just bought a 2007 Volvo S60 that needs one!!!!


----------



## gymrat2005

Hey Andy...Jorge Maya says hello.


----------



## Gary Mac

Will there be a group buy opportunity?


----------



## AdamS

bikinpunk said:


> that's interesting.
> 
> more details on exactly what this is doing?
> 
> Are you saying that if you add new tweeters, then you tell the software that you have new tweeters and it reconfigures the setup focusing only on tweeter/midrange?


As long as your crossover information is the same, then all you need to do is put on the microphones and listen to some sweeps.

The input setup and output mapping doesn't need to be changed.

If you actually add a new speaker, like installing a sub or a center that wasn't there before, then you need to re-run the setup (a few minutes).


----------



## 14642

gymrat2005 said:


> Hey Andy...Jorge Maya says hello.


Wow! Hi Jorge. Nice to hear from you. Hope everything is still peachy in Vegas.


----------



## Thunderplains

Andy,
Would you have any white papers or promotional material available yet?


----------



## [email protected]

I'm so ecstatic that this is actually moving towards fruition.


----------



## Lanson

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Wow! Hi Jorge. Nice to hear from you. Hope everything is still peachy in Vegas.


Vegas is enduring, what with perfect 60-75 degree weather and all.


----------



## rain27

Is this legit???

The JBL MS-8 in-car DSP finally gets an official release date and price


----------



## Sptsmed

There is a Santa Claus


----------



## 14642

rain27 said:


> Is this legit???
> 
> The JBL MS-8 in-car DSP finally gets an official release date and price


Pretty much sums it up.


----------



## rommelrommel

Another story on the MS-8:

CORRECTING and REPLACING Harman International Unveils New Products Across Home, Multimedia and Mobile This Spring - MarketWatch


----------



## rain27

Confirmed for April release?!!!

Great!

So, how do we actually go about ordering one?


----------



## trevordj

I seriously have butterflies in my stomach knowing that this will be released. It will have a nice home in my Volvo as soon as it comes out. Now I just need to find a local dealer or will surely get in on a group buy if the opportunity arrises. 

Thank you Andy!


----------



## kobiejohn

Thunderplains said:


> Andy,
> Would you have any white papers or promotional material available yet?



I have a two page flyer on it, can email it to someone if they want to post it.


----------



## tornaido_3927

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Pretty much sums it up.


Seeing as US release is almost here, is there an idea yet of when this awesome thing will start to hit the international markets? And pricing?
I'm sure many on here would like to know whether to wait to buy this from their own country or whether it will take too long or be too expensive, so they can import it from the states


----------



## t3sn4f2

tornaido_3927 said:


> Seeing as US release is almost here, is there an idea yet of when this awesome thing will start to hit the international markets? And pricing?
> I'm sure many on here would like to know whether to wait to buy this from their own country or whether it will take too long or be too expensive, so they can import it from the states


Sorry, the T/A range for the left channels is not large enough to accommodate right side steering car. 

No MS-8 for you guys!


----------



## tornaido_3927

t3sn4f2 said:


> Sorry, the T/A range for the left channels is not large enough to accommodate right side steering car.
> 
> No MS-8 for you guys!




We'd make it work.. Just switch around the L-R channels!


----------



## michaelsil1

t3sn4f2 said:


> Sorry, the T/A range for the left channels is not large enough to accommodate right side steering car.
> 
> No MS-8 for you guys!





You're not making any friends!


----------



## n_olympios

kobiejohn said:


> I have a two page flyer on it, can email it to someone if they want to post it.


Feel free to send it to olympios at talkaudio.net and I'll upload it.


----------



## Shazzz

kobiejohn said:


> I have a two page flyer on it, can email it to someone if they want to post it.


Thanks John


----------



## t3sn4f2

kobiejohn said:


> I have a two page flyer on it, can email it to someone if they want to post it.


You can put it up for free easily on Megaupload.com

No registering required.

Then just come here and post a download link to it.


----------



## Shazzz

t3sn4f2 said:


> Sorry, the T/A range for the left channels is not large enough to accommodate right side steering car.
> 
> No MS-8 for you guys!





tornaido_3927 said:


> We'd make it work.. Just switch around the L-R channels!


Or simply turn the unit upside down and poof! You now have L to R arrangement as needed. LOL :laugh: 

Needless to say Respectfully kidding of coarse


----------



## n_olympios

There you go guys. John just sent it to me. 

RapidShare: 1-CLICK Web hosting - Easy Filehosting


----------



## kobiejohn

Shazzz said:


> Thanks John




No problem


----------



## Lanson

awesome. Of course my work filter prevents rapidshare from loading so I'll pick it off at home.


----------



## 89grand

There isn't much to it really. I took screen shots:


----------



## DS-21

This thing really looks like a game changer.


----------



## Gary Mac

So no group buy?


----------



## 14642

Stay tuned on the group buy...


----------



## ibanzil

^^^^^^^^wooooooooohooooo!!!!


----------



## 14642

I don't know what it will be...


----------



## rommelrommel

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Stay tuned on the group buy...


Andy, I'm sure I speak for many on the forum that are very grateful that you're even looking into the possibilty of a group buy.


----------



## matt1212

rommelrommel said:


> Andy, I'm sure I speak for many on the forum that are very grateful that you're even looking into the possibilty of a group buy.


HHa seriously, just hoping to get one as soon as they're released...


----------



## donkeypunch22

oh dude, Andy, hook us up!!!


----------



## Technic

IMO, the max high level input should be at least 30Vrms so no LOC are required for high power OEM systems before the MS-8.

For example, at least two BMW OEM sound systems (Premium and the Individual Audio) will have issues with those 15V max high level inputs. The Premium will be borderline at 17V max at the OEM woofers outputs and the Individual Audio will have _at least_ 30V at its OEM woofer outputs.


----------



## Izay123

Technic said:


> IMO, the max high level input should be at least 30Vrms so no LOC are required for high power OEM systems before the MS-8.
> 
> For example, at least two BMW OEM sound systems (Premium and the Individual Audio) will have issues with those 15V max high level inputs. The Premium will be borderline at 17V max at the OEM woofers outputs and the Individual Audio will have _at least_ 30V at its OEM woofer outputs.


You can just turn it down. If I'm correct, the MS-8 is designed to be the primary volume control when used with factory head units because of the commonality of volume-dependent EQ contouring. In that case, you wouldn't want to use the factory control at high volumes anyway because it would limit the low frequency content in the signal. The instructions will probably say to set the (factory) head unit volume at mid-way or three-quarters, do the sweeps, and then just leave the volume control where it is. Then you can just use the supplied remote to control the volume from there on out.

I hope this helps


----------



## 14642

Yes, that question has been asked before. The setup procedure suggested above is one solution and another is to build a simple voltage divider between the output of the factory amp and the input of MS-8. IN that case, either speaker level of line level could be used. 

The last time i suggested the voltage divider, I got flamed because that simple circuit didn't seem acceptable, for some reason.


----------



## 106diablogti

Hi Andy is there any news about a distribution date in Europe e.g. United Kingdom?

Thanks

Rich


----------



## TPMS

Andy, honours to you for everything !


.. but I still can't get the size specified , even in the flyer


----------



## 14642

TPMS said:


> Andy, honours to you for everything !
> 
> 
> .. but I still can't get the size specified , even in the flyer


I'm sorry. I'll dig up the CAD files when I get to the office and post the dimensions.

Oops. Too much to do..


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Oops. Too much to do..


.. writing the Instruction Manual ? 

just a quick concise edition, would suffice by now

while I still hope to be able to read some more of your insights somewhere in future "appendixes" (or maybe "tomoes" ) .. I would not want this to be a cause of delay, now


----------



## Technic

Izay123 said:


> You can just turn it down. If I'm correct, the MS-8 is designed to be the primary volume control when used with factory head units because of the commonality of volume-dependent EQ contouring. In that case, you wouldn't want to use the factory control at high volumes anyway because it would limit the low frequency content in the signal. The instructions will probably say to set the (factory) head unit volume at mid-way or three-quarters, do the sweeps, and then just leave the volume control where it is. Then you can just use the supplied remote to control the volume from there on out.
> 
> I hope this helps


There's a reason of why JL Audio Cleansweep max high level input is 30V rms. 

In my particular case, the digital inputs OEM amp in my car puts out some 150W max/32V peak measured at the woofer outputs. After using a Cleansweep and a bit one processor, at certain volume levels the bass "spikes" were heard thru the tweeters. That's because the signals of the OEM amp has to be summed before the processing and the woofer levels were always much higher than the rest, no matter how I calibrated and messed around with the inputs of those processors. 

The only way to solve this high power issue was to recode my iDrive system to output analog low level balanced signals. Problems were gone...

Then I have the issue of using a "Master" volume control. Sorry, this is 2010 not 1980... I'm not giving up my OEM MFSW controls or installing a foreign knob anywhere in my dash. And so far JL Audio, Audison, Rockford Fosgate and even Alpine retreated from their requirement of having the Master Volume control installed for their processor to work. And so far Andy has stated that the MS-8 will not have that requirement, so using the Master Volume as a band-aid for something that can be addressed properly is not a solution.


----------



## Technic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, that question has been asked before. The setup procedure suggested above is one solution and another is to build a simple voltage divider between the output of the factory amp and the input of MS-8. IN that case, either speaker level of line level could be used.
> 
> *The last time i suggested the voltage divider, I got flamed because that simple circuit didn't seem acceptable, for some reason.*


IMO, that's another form of a band-aid. 

I do understand that for 99% of the cars out there 15V of high level max input is more than enough. But again, even your own Logic7 OEM system in BMW puts out a peak of 17V at the woofer outputs. Yes, no reasonable person will be driving with the volume all the way up all the time, much less at calibration. However, you also have the type of customer that will exceed that 15V in no time here and then with this system, and there are other OEM systems already that are twice as powerful as that from factory. 

Perhaps I'm just _disappointed_ with this particular spec. I had the same conversation with Audison and the bit one...


----------



## trigg007

rommelrommel said:


> Andy, I'm sure I speak for many on the forum that are very grateful that you're even looking into the possibilty of a group buy.


X2000!


----------



## t3sn4f2

Technic said:


> IMO, that's another form of a band-aid.
> 
> I do understand that for 99% of the cars out there 15V of high level max input is more than enough. But again, even your own Logic7 OEM system in BMW puts out a peak of 17V at the woofer outputs. Yes, no reasonable person will be driving with the volume all the way up all the time, much less at calibration. However, you also have the type of customer that will exceed that 15V in no time here and then with this system, and there are other OEM systems already that are twice as powerful as that from factory.
> 
> Perhaps I'm just _disappointed_ with this particular spec. I had the same conversation with Audison and the bit one...


"Livia is like the woman with a Virginia ham under each arm, crying cause she hasn’t got any bread."


----------



## 14642

Technic said:


> There's a reason of why JL Audio Cleansweep max high level input is 30V rms.
> 
> In my particular case, the digital inputs OEM amp in my car puts out some 150W max/32V peak measured at the woofer outputs. After using a Cleansweep and a bit one processor, at certain volume levels the bass "spikes" were heard thru the tweeters. That's because the signals of the OEM amp has to be summed before the processing and the woofer levels were always much higher than the rest, no matter how I calibrated and messed around with the inputs of those processors.
> 
> The only way to solve this high power issue was to recode my iDrive system to output analog low level balanced signals. Problems were gone...
> 
> Then I have the issue of using a "Master" volume control. Sorry, this is 2010 not 1980... I'm not giving up my OEM MFSW controls or installing a foreign knob anywhere in my dash. And so far JL Audio, Audison, Rockford Fosgate and even Alpine retreated from their requirement of having the Master Volume control installed for their processor to work. And so far Andy has stated that the MS-8 will not have that requirement, so using the Master Volume as a band-aid for something that can be addressed properly is not a solution.


How did you "recode" your I-Drive system to output low level balanced? 

If you're measuring peak voltage, then you ought to convert that to RMS when you consider compatibility issues. MS-8's input is 15V RMS and that would be 21V peak. 

Although we haven't tested MS-8 with that particular OE system, the difference between 17V and 15V is inconsequential.

The big news is that in all cars we've tested that included a factory sub and amplifier, the connection to the sibwoofer output was unnecessary. MS-8 includes enough EQ to fully restore the bass even when no low frequency input channel is connected. 

Finally, call it what you want, a voltage divider to reduce the voltage is a valid solution. We did this because we didn't want users and installers to have to tweak the inptu levels of all the channels as part of the installation. If the inputs accept 30V to satisfy the three people in the world who will insist that they can turn the factory volume control all the way up and who refuse to consider the most basic of all electrical circuits as an acceptable fix for the most basic of all electrical challenges, then 99.9 percent of the systems would require additional user intervention at setup or would make poor use of the available signal. Remember, the difference between your 30V and the 15V we allow is just 6dB of signal.


----------



## Technic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> How did you "recode" your I-Drive system to output low level balanced?


That's done thru the Autologic diagnostic tool.



> If you're measuring peak voltage, then you ought to convert that to RMS when you consider compatibility issues. MS-8's input is 15V RMS and that would be 21V peak.
> 
> Although we haven't tested MS-8 with that particular OE system, the difference between 17V and 15V is inconsequential.
> 
> The big news is that in all cars we've tested that included a factory sub and amplifier, the connection to the sibwoofer output was unnecessary. MS-8 includes enough EQ to fully restore the bass even when no low frequency input channel is connected.


So there will be no issue, then. I would like to see how this MS-8 restores all the bass information below 150Hz in the Individual Audio and Logic7 systems without the woofer outputs. So I guess that i will be part of your group buy. 



> Finally, call it what you want, a voltage divider to reduce the voltage is a valid solution. We did this because we didn't want users and installers to have to tweak the inptu levels of all the channels as part of the installation. If the inputs accept 30V to satisfy the three people in the world who will insist that they can turn the factory volume control all the way up and who refuse to consider the most basic of all electrical circuits as an acceptable fix for the most basic of all electrical challenges, then 99.9 percent of the systems would require additional user intervention at setup or would make poor use of the available signal. Remember, the difference between your 30V and the 15V we allow is just 6dB of signal.


A voltage divider is a valid solution for a *non-*OEM integration processor. But once you start talking about an OEM integration processor then there should be no other device or circuitry between the OEM system and such processor. 

Kind of defeat the purpose, IMO. 

That's the reason that I went ahead with the output recoding, so I can dump the summing devices, the LC6i and the Matrix band aids before the "OEM integration" processors that I have used.


----------



## lycan

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> How did you "recode" your I-Drive system to output low level balanced?
> 
> If you're measuring peak voltage, then you ought to convert that to RMS when you consider compatibility issues. MS-8's input is 15V RMS and that would be 21V peak.
> 
> Although we haven't tested MS-8 with that particular OE system, the difference between 17V and 15V is inconsequential.
> 
> The big news is that in all cars we've tested that included a factory sub and amplifier, the connection to the sibwoofer output was unnecessary. MS-8 includes enough EQ to fully restore the bass even when no low frequency input channel is connected.
> 
> Finally, call it what you want, a voltage divider to reduce the voltage is a valid solution. We did this because we didn't want users and installers to have to tweak the inptu levels of all the channels as part of the installation. If the inputs accept 30V to satisfy the three people in the world who will insist that they can turn the factory volume control all the way up and who refuse to consider the most basic of all electrical circuits as an acceptable fix for the most basic of all electrical challenges, then 99.9 percent of the systems would require additional user intervention at setup or would make poor use of the available signal. Remember, the difference between your 30V and the 15V we allow is just 6dB of signal.


ummmm .... yeah i gotta agree with Andy on this one.

A voltage divider (2 resistors) is too much to ask ... on a diy audio forum?

Come on guys


----------



## thehatedguy

I would be happy to provide test results


----------



## Shocks

Will you be able to run a balanced line to the MS-8?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Shocks said:


> Will you be able to run a balanced line to the MS-8?


Post #234 and 235


----------



## CobraVin

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Stay tuned on the group buy...


wow very cool, can't wait, thank you Andy


----------



## 14642

Production is officially scheduled to begin on March 25th.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Wooo 5 days till first build day!

And I'm interested in a GB just so we are clear*


----------



## an2ny888

i wonder how soon we can get this in the Philippines? hopefully the local distributor will get a few units


----------



## Chrisbl

This is great news! 
I'm also up for a group buy if this is offered. Can't wait to get this installed on my Subaru Legacy


----------



## trevordj

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Production is officially scheduled to begin on March 25th.


Awesome! Can't wait.


----------



## BMWTUBED

Do we know how many watts went to each channel in the 325i Biggs BMW?


----------



## vactor

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Production is officially scheduled to begin on March 25th.


that's my birthday!


----------



## 14642

BMWTUBED said:


> Do we know how many watts went to each channel in the 325i Biggs BMW?


Yes, 100.


----------



## CraigE

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm sorry. I'll dig up the CAD files when I get to the office and post the dimensions.
> 
> Oops. Too much to do..


:lurk::snacks:


----------



## mathematics

what's the comparison between this new processor and my DSP-6? any reasons to make a switch? i don't have any reasons i'd want to switch, aside from the DSP-6 being 6 channels and not 8.


----------



## rommelrommel

mathematics said:


> what's the comparison between this new processor and my DSP-6? any reasons to make a switch? i don't have any reasons i'd want to switch, aside from the DSP-6 being 6 channels and not 8.


The auto tune is probably the most compelling reason to switch, or logic7.


----------



## 14642

Oops. Here's the specs page from the manual. Dimensions are at the bottom.


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Oops. Here's the specs page from the manual. Dimensions are at the bottom.
> 
> ]



... from what .. *the manual *!?


----------



## 14642

Yes, from the manual.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, from the manual.


When can we see it?


----------



## ItalynStylion

I can't remember if this was asked or not. How do you know where to set your gains BEFORE the auto tune?


----------



## 14642

If you're using RCA inputs, the gain through the processor is unity (1). Obviously, it won't be unity across the full frequency spectrum, because of the EQ. So, set your gains to the level you'd set them to if they were hooked directly to the head unit. If you want to do the O-Scope thing, plug them directly into the head, use the CD and set the gains. Then, plug in MS-8, run setup and be done with it. 

Or, set them for about 2V, run setup and then adjust them all by exactly the same amount.

I don't have a place to put the manual for downloading. Sorry. Should be up on the website pretty soon.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If you're using RCA inputs, the gain through the processor is unity (1). Obviously, it won't be unity across the full frequency spectrum, because of the EQ. So, set your gains to the level you'd set them to if they were hooked directly to the head unit. If you want to do the O-Scope thing, plug them directly into the head, use the CD and set the gains. Then, plug in MS-8, run setup and be done with it.
> 
> Or, set them for about 2V, run setup and then adjust them all by exactly the same amount.
> 
> I don't have a place to put the manual for downloading. Sorry. Should be up on the website pretty soon.


Are you guys allowed to put it on megaupload.com?


----------



## matt1212

Hey Andy, Do you have any idea what the imternal amps rms will be? Like as in is that 30 watts peak or continuous? Ive got a set of 2 ohm Focals in the rear and im wondering if i should get another amp for them or run them off the ms-8...


----------



## 14642

matt1212 said:


> Hey Andy, Do you have any idea what the imternal amps rms will be? Like as in is that 30 watts peak or continuous? Ive got a set of 2 ohm Focals in the rear and im wondering if i should get another amp for them or run them off the ms-8...


That is RMS (in the manual page). The amps are STM TDA7563. If you'd like to read all about the part, you can get the data sheet here:

TDA7563 Datasheet pdf - MULTIFUNCTION QUAD POWER AMPLIFIER WITH BUILT-IN DIAGNOSTICS FEATURES - ST Microelectronics


----------



## matt1212

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> That is RMS (in the manual page). The amps are STM TDA7563. If you'd like to read all about the part, you can get the data sheet here:
> 
> TDA7563 Datasheet pdf - MULTIFUNCTION QUAD POWER AMPLIFIER WITH BUILT-IN DIAGNOSTICS FEATURES - ST Microelectronics


Ok Andy, Thanks.

Count me in on that group buy.


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> Are you guys allowed to put it on megaupload.com?


 I can do whatever I want with it. Thanks for the tip. See if this works:

MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service


----------



## matt1212

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I can do whatever I want with it. Thanks for the tip. See if this works:
> 
> MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service


It says it's unavailable. If your allowed to, you could email me the pdf and i could post it

EDIT: NVM IT'S ALL GOOD


----------



## 14642

Try again. I just checked it and it's now available. Apparently there's some waiting period...maybe it's like buying a firearm...


----------



## matt1212

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Try again. I just checked it and it's now available. Apparently there's some waiting period...maybe it's like buying a firearm...


Yea its up there now...thanks


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Try again. I just checked it and it's now available. Apparently there's some waiting period...maybe it's like buying a firearm...


lol. It did the same for me with a wav file I upload today.

Thanks Chief!


----------



## trigg007

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I can do whatever I want with it. Thanks for the tip. See if this works:
> 
> MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service



Too Cool!!! Thanks for sharing & perfect timing for those of us in the initial planning stages of a new system


----------



## Technic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> That is RMS (in the manual page). The amps are STM TDA7563. If you'd like to read all about the part, you can get the data sheet here:
> 
> TDA7563 Datasheet pdf - MULTIFUNCTION QUAD POWER AMPLIFIER WITH BUILT-IN DIAGNOSTICS FEATURES - ST Microelectronics


Very good amp IC selection... the VW RNS-510 Navigation system uses the TDA7564 version and it sounds pretty good for an OEM HU when connected to 2ohms speakers.

Thanks for the MS-8 manual, it is really way beyond any processor capabilities in the market right now. :thumbsup:


----------



## matt1212

Andy, Just curious why is it that when using an aftermarket head unit (Pioneer F90BT) with a front rear and subwoofer output its better to use just the front input signal? I would have thought that it would have been easier for the logic 7 to know all three?

Also, I'd assume this means that the signal from the head unit should be completely unprocessed, as in the full 20hz-20khz signal? (No crossovers, bass boosters, etc...)


----------



## CraigE

Andy,
Thanks for the manual.:beerchug:
I 'm sport'n wood.


----------



## lycan

Thanks for the manual Andy!

And i'm sure this was covered 30 or 40 pages ago, so i apologize ... but just for verification: The remote control unit, including volume control, won't function unless the display unit is a permanent part of the installation, correct?

It seems reasonable ... without the display unit, you just use the headunit's volume control.


----------



## Mic10is

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Try again. I just checked it and it's now available. Apparently there's some waiting period...maybe it's like buying a firearm...


unavailable again. group buy details would be good, unless long time competitors can get accommodation on it

nevermind, got the manual.
liking what I am reading so far


----------



## trevordj

Yes, thank you for the manual Andy!

Quick questions: I have a Volvo C30 and will be running high level connections to the MS-8. The manual states to be sure to connect all high level outputs from the factory amplifier including center and subwoofer. I seem to remember you stating to just connect the full range (front in my case) high level outputs. 

My Volvo has factory Dolby PLII processing. In this case, would it be best to only connect the factory high level front speaker output from the factory amplifier and run the stock head unit in 2-channel stereo all the time rather than in PLII? Or, as the unit states, should I connect all high level inputs and run the factory head unit in PLII? I suppose the third option would be, should I connect all high level inputs and run the factory head unit in 3-channel stereo or stereo? 

Thanks for the clarification!

Edit: never mind, I read it wrong; It looks like my original understanding is correct: Connect full range front speaker inputs only (no factory sub output on the C30). Leave center and rear high level inputs unconnected.


----------



## t3sn4f2

lycan said:


> Thanks for the manual Andy!
> 
> And i'm sure this was covered 30 or 40 pages ago, so i apologize ... but just for verification: The remote control unit, including volume control, won't function unless the display unit is a permanent part of the installation, correct?
> 
> It seems reasonable ... without the display unit, you just use the headunit's volume control.


"NOTE: The display unit is required to set up and calibrate the MS-8. However, once you have set up the MS-8, you can remove the display unit from the vehicle. (All ofthe MS-8’s equalization and digital signal processing functions will operate without your intervention.) If you do disconnect the display unit after setup, though, you will not be able to make any MS-8 adjustments, and the MS-8’s remote control will not function."


----------



## 14642

matt1212 said:


> Andy, Just curious why is it that when using an aftermarket head unit (Pioneer F90BT) with a front rear and subwoofer output its better to use just the front input signal? I would have thought that it would have been easier for the logic 7 to know all three?
> 
> Also, I'd assume this means that the signal from the head unit should be completely unprocessed, as in the full 20hz-20khz signal? (No crossovers, bass boosters, etc...)


Logic 7 generates center, side and rear from the 2-channel signal. Many of the other 5.1 algorithms are designed for rooms where the TV is the vocal point, dialogue is most often reproduced and where the center speaker is similar in size to the left and right, and finally where the seating positions are more similar to the standard equalateral triangle. It doesn't need to know the center and side information from discreet outputs. If you'll watch or listen to DVDs, just select the 2-channel downmix in the disc setup or the setup menu for your DVD player. In that downmix, the canter and surround information have been "encoded" into stereo and L7 will play back in full surround. Generating the sub signal for the car should always be done by MS-8. LFE channels for rooms aren't optimal for cars. Plus, just hooking up front channels is simpler.

As far as the additional processing in the head unit goes, it's pretty important to defeat the surround processing, if possible. MS-8 can't downmix perfectly if it's fed center and sides. If you run setup with bass and treble boosted, MS-8 will flatten the signal.


----------



## JayinMI

If this manual was paper, the pages would be stuck together.


----------



## 14642

lycan said:


> Thanks for the manual Andy!
> 
> And i'm sure this was covered 30 or 40 pages ago, so i apologize ... but just for verification: The remote control unit, including volume control, won't function unless the display unit is a permanent part of the installation, correct?
> 
> It seems reasonable ... without the display unit, you just use the headunit's volume control.


Hey there, Hairy Night Creature,
Yes, that's right. If you don't install the display, the unit remembers all the settings when it's unplugged. It's like having stored only one favorite. In that case and if you've done a bunch of bass boosing in any of the EQs or level controls, I suggest setting the MS-8 volume below 0dB to accommodate that boost by a few dB and using the factory control. Obviously, the factory volume control's loudness and dynamic EQ won't be eliminated, but those settings are usually chosen to "correct" for some ambient characteristics (road noise, etc) or a simple equal loudness contour and they often improve the performance anyway.


----------



## Mic10is

DO you HAVE TO use the remote out to turn on external amplifiers?
I saw that the MS* will delay turn off--is this to prevent turn off Pops, so its recommended to use the remote out or this isnt not a major concern and you donot need to?


----------



## quality_sound

Man, if the GB price is good enough I might have to pick one up just in case.


----------



## 14642

Mic10is said:


> DO you HAVE TO use the remote out to turn on external amplifiers?
> I saw that the MS* will delay turn off--is this to prevent turn off Pops, so its recommended to use the remote out or this isnt not a major concern and you donot need to?


You don't HAVE to. Works better that way, though. Is that a big deal? MS-8 doesn't make noise when it turns on or off, but factory systems may. If the amps come on last and turn off first, then the pops aren't likely to make it to the speakers.


----------



## Sex Cells

Also in for the group by, have a couple coworkers also very interested.


----------



## Shocks

Maybe I didn't understand the manual correctly, but can you use Logic 7 when not using a center channel and selecting 2 way or just a 1 way?


----------



## NvTwist

No Volume control unless the display is connected?
Only two input sources available...
No signal sent to external amplifier until after system setup.
Doesn't sound like there's any onboard protection devices other than the Fuse.
No Clipping indicator... Short Protection.... Static Discharge message was mentioned in the manual. So If the MS-8 receives a clipped signal from the Source (Volume was turned up to High) or creates clipping (EQ Boost Level to high) causing distortion and possible Damage it doesn't try to correct it or indicate the Problem. It Be nice to see that on the Display...

Are the EQ center points adjustable? Didn't sound like it in the manual.

Maybe It's me or my expectations of a "Game Changer" DSP got over inflated, It's Probably Both. But I'm not Seeing any great features other than ease of Final Tune (Turn Head). After that it falls flat. The system programing and Navigation sounds like the Wunder-Bar Liqour systems I was working on more than 15 yrs ago.

Maybe there are more features to the system than what the manual indicates or shows. I'm Hoping there is.


----------



## NvTwist

I was just reading over my Previous Post and realized that it sounds really Negative and insulting. It was not my intention. Just want to give my apologies to Andy and his team at JBL.
I try to see the glass as half full but it doesn't all ways work out that way.


----------



## Knobby Digital

Is that manual still hosted? It's said temp unavail for the last 15 min.

High demand, maybe?


----------



## 14642

NvTwist said:


> No Volume control unless the display is connected?
> Only two input sources available...
> No signal sent to external amplifier until after system setup.
> Doesn't sound like there's any onboard protection devices other than the Fuse.
> No Clipping indicator... Short Protection.... Static Discharge message was mentioned in the manual. So If the MS-8 receives a clipped signal from the Source (Volume was turned up to High) or creates clipping (EQ Boost Level to high) causing distortion and possible Damage it doesn't try to correct it or indicate the Problem. It Be nice to see that on the Display...
> 
> Are the EQ center points adjustable? Didn't sound like it in the manual.
> 
> Maybe It's me or my expectations of a "Game Changer" DSP got over inflated, It's Probably Both. But I'm not Seeing any great features other than ease of Final Tune (Turn Head). After that it falls flat. The system programing and Navigation sounds like the Wunder-Bar Liqour systems I was working on more than 15 yrs ago.
> 
> Maybe there are more features to the system than what the manual indicates or shows. I'm Hoping there is.


There's a lot going on behind the scenes that isn't apparent. the center frequencies on the 31-band EQ aren't adjustable, but it's really a drawing tool. Ms-8 will implement any curve you draw. Since the channels are already matched by the autotune, this is much easier and you don't need an RTA. As far as clipping and distortion are concerned, this unit doesn't operate any differently than any other unit. If you clip the head unit, you'll hear clipping. If you clip the DSP, you'll hear clipping. How would you suggest that we monitor a music signal from the head unit to determine if it's clipping? The unit does that during setup, but it can only do that because the setup CD includes a known MLS signal that MS-8 correlates to determine the impulse response. It has no idea what the music content should be.

Of course there's short circuit protection on the speaker outputs.

This thing will make your car sound great and that's what it's supposed to do. It was never intended to be an iPhone or a studio mixing console. 

Think of this as a great backyard BBQ without the white tablecloth and water "with gas" that you'd find at Tavern on the Green.


----------



## billymonter

I'm in for the group buy. I could use 13 channels but 8 will be complicated enough.


----------



## Luke352

Any chance that someone who has downloaded the Manual can rehost it somewhere, I've been trying for the last hour to download the file and it hasn't become available yet.


----------



## 106diablogti

Luke pm me your email address and I will send a copy to you.


----------



## Knobby Digital

I'll host it. Thanks NvTwist!!!

MS-8 manual

Andy, lemme know if you need me to remove that at any point.


----------



## NvTwist

Awesome, can't wait to get hear the corrections this system is gonna make. Now I've Gonna install it into my Subaru's OE system before moving on the full upgrade. Knowing the technique its gonna use has set my worries at ease. 
Keep it up.


----------



## Just_SQ

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hey there, Hairy Night Creature,
> Yes, that's right. If you don't install the display, the unit remembers all the settings when it's unplugged. It's like having stored only one favorite. In that case and if you've done a bunch of bass boosing in any of the EQs or level controls, I suggest setting the MS-8 volume below 0dB to accommodate that boost by a few dB and using the factory control. Obviously, the factory volume control's loudness and dynamic EQ won't be eliminated, but those settings are usually chosen to "correct" for some ambient characteristics (road noise, etc) or a simple equal loudness contour and they often improve the performance anyway.


Is there any way to feed the units info to an external display monitor?


----------



## trevordj

I am definitely in for a group buy. 

Andy, can you explain this statement a little more:



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ...If you run setup with bass and treble boosted, MS-8 will flatten the signal.


Is there any benefit to running autotune after boosting the bass and treble as you mentioned vs. just running autotune with all the factory boosts set to neutral?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Just_SQ said:


> Is there any way to feed the units info to an external display monitor?


Que?


----------



## tornaido_3927

I'm not sure if this has been covered..

I know you are only supposed to plug in the front RCA's and I also know why, but if you only need those two to be plugged in, why are there 8 RCA inputs?


----------



## 14642

tornaido_3927 said:


> I'm not sure if this has been covered..
> 
> I know you are only supposed to plug in the front RCA's and I also know why, but if you only need those two to be plugged in, why are there 8 RCA inputs?


 
Ahhh...grasshopper...good question. 

Because we put them in at the begining and then discovered that we didn't need them. Rather than retooling the endcap, we just left them. If, by some chance, you had low-level signals in the car that were filtered, you could connect all of them to the RCA inputs, but that's about the only reason I can think of.


----------



## 14642

Just_SQ said:


> Is there any way to feed the units info to an external display monitor?


The display sends I2C back and forth to the DSP. All of the control is in the display, so it isn't a video signal. The remote signal is RF, though, so if you want to mount the display inside of a compartment somewhere, you could do that and the volume control would still work.


----------



## ShakingHorizons

I am in for a group buy as well!


----------



## timelord9

once the ms-8 runs its auto calibration, the user can't then go and change the time alignment settings, is that correct? In other words, time alignment is only an option using auto calibration, but we can mess with x/o slopes and points, as well as a 31 band EQ.

What do we do if we decide that the ms-8 hasn't quite got the time alignment perfect, and it's out by just a little bit? I assume that any tuning would then need to be done by moving speakers and playing with gain etc. 

Im bang up for a group buy too


----------



## matt1212

timelord9 said:


> once the ms-8 runs its auto calibration, the user can't then go and change the time alignment settings, is that correct? In other words, time alignment is only an option using auto calibration, but we can mess with x/o slopes and points, as well as a 31 band EQ.
> 
> What do we do if we decide that the ms-8 hasn't quite got the time alignment perfect, and it's out by just a little bit? I assume that any tuning would then need to be done by moving speakers and playing with gain etc.
> 
> Im bang up for a group buy too


Many of the concerns I've seen are all things that seem like the MS-8's hardware is capable of. In the manual it shows that they included a USB port to update the firmware, IMO Andy and the guys will probably be able to add many more features through an update after it's released. I think we should give them time. Just my .02...


----------



## rugdnit

Definitely want to know more about the group guy. Cheers!


----------



## t3sn4f2

matt1212 said:


> Many of the concerns I've seen are all things that seem like the MS-8's hardware is capable of. In the manual it shows that they included a USB port to update the firmware, IMO Andy and the guys will probably be able to add many more features through an update after it's released. I think we should give them time. Just my .02...


X2

Like making that damn mute button an input toggle.


----------



## blownrunner

Could you explain a little more about the line driver? Does the MS8 have a feature to work like the AudioControl Matrix? Is the output voltage adjustable? Thanks.


----------



## t3sn4f2

blownrunner said:


> Could you explain a little more about the line driver? Does the MS8 have a feature to work like the AudioControl Matrix? Is the output voltage adjustable? Thanks.


Unity gain. What you put in, you get out. No mo.


----------



## 14642

timelord9 said:


> once the ms-8 runs its auto calibration, the user can't then go and change the time alignment settings, is that correct? In other words, time alignment is only an option using auto calibration, but we can mess with x/o slopes and points, as well as a 31 band EQ.
> 
> What do we do if we decide that the ms-8 hasn't quite got the time alignment perfect, and it's out by just a little bit? I assume that any tuning would then need to be done by moving speakers and playing with gain etc.
> 
> Im bang up for a group buy too


You could remeasure and move the mic a bit. can't adjust crossovers after Autotune either. Believe me, you won't want to. The 31-band EQ will be enough.


----------



## AdamS

matt1212 said:


> Many of the concerns I've seen are all things that seem like the MS-8's hardware is capable of. In the manual it shows that they included a USB port to update the firmware, IMO Andy and the guys will probably be able to add many more features through an update after it's released. I think we should give them time. Just my .02...


Additionally, there's nothing stopping us from writing an API that lets external devices write to the USB to control volume, mute, etc.

We have lots of ideas for adding new algorithms, but we need to be selective due to MIPS constraints, etc.


----------



## davvv

So when is the realese date?


----------



## t3sn4f2

davvv said:


> So when is the realese date?


January 2012


----------



## gymrat2005

t3sn4f2 said:


> January 2012


:laugh::laugh:..playing with his emotions..or emoticons, whichever you prefer


----------



## t3sn4f2

gymrat2005 said:


> :laugh::laugh:..playing with his emotions..or emoticons, whichever you prefer


----------



## timelord9

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> You could remeasure and move the mic a bit. can't adjust crossovers after Autotune either. Believe me, you won't want to. The 31-band EQ will be enough.


See, that's something I'm not quite sure I believe unfortunately. As you've said yourself, YOU can do a better job than the computer, but you need a bunch of tools, time and knowledge to do it. The computer does the first 90% in 10 minutes. 

Most consumers will be thrilled with that, however sound quality competitors will not be. The really awesome part, which I was getting quite excited about, would be to take a base tune and tweak and change it over time to create something perfect. The last 10%. Which, I assume, is more than just moving the eq sliders up or down. 

Maybe I'm wrong. If I am, isn't sound quality competition around the world going to get pretty boring pretty quickly? Or am I seeing things that aren't really there...


----------



## Mic10is

anyway to auto tune for 2seat?


----------



## timelord9

yes. RTFM. 











aaaahhhhh jokin'....The auto tune will tune for either driver, passenger, driver+passenger, rear or all.


----------



## DS-21

timelord9 said:


> Maybe I'm wrong. If I am, isn't sound quality competition around the world going to get pretty boring pretty quickly?


What's with the future tense there?


----------



## Mic10is

timelord9 said:


> yes. RTFM.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aaaahhhhh jokin'....The auto tune will tune for either driver, passenger, driver+passenger, rear or all.


you're right..it was an RTFM problem. reading that part now


----------



## kkant

NvTwist said:


> Maybe It's me or my expectations of a "Game Changer" DSP got over inflated, It's Probably Both. But I'm not Seeing any great features other than ease of Final Tune (Turn Head). After that it falls flat


The fact that it has an auto-tune that actually works is what makes this a game-changer. Some of the other deficiencies you listed are subsumed by the auto-tune. For example, you don't need "moveable center frequencies" on the 31-band EQ, because the 31-band is being used as a target-curve descriptor rather than as a room correction mechanism. And that is as it should be.

I do agree somewhat with your points about clipping. It would be nice if the MS-8 provided an indication during the setup process of when the HU was clipping on a 0 db signal. The manual indicates that the MS-8 does say "HI" or "LO" when the signal is out of range during initial setup; it would be nice if "HI" is indicated when the signal is clipping even a little bit, and that the signal at this time on the setup CD is a 0 DB sine. Perhaps this is already the case. Likewise, it would be nice if the MS-8 automatically adjusted its max output level to ensure, after all EQ boosting is done, that the output waveforms would never be clipped. Perhaps this also is already the case.


----------



## kkant

timelord9 said:


> If I am, isn't sound quality competition around the world going to get pretty boring pretty quickly?


I hope it does. That would be, in fact, completely awesome.


----------



## kkant

By the way, how did the MS-8 equipped cars do in the SQ comps this year?


----------



## newtitan

Group Buy, if there is one, im in for TWO


----------



## Just_SQ

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The display sends I2C back and forth to the DSP. All of the control is in the display, so it isn't a video signal. The remote signal is RF, though, so if you want to mount the display inside of a compartment somewhere, you could do that and the volume control would still work.


Understood and thank you for the answer and info Andy. But logically speaking we are still looking at a screen display. There must be a way to divert what the small display is seeing to a larger screen???


----------



## NvTwist

Is this the same software and Algorithms used in your Lexicon Processor's?? 
Cause the MS-8 reminded me of the RV-5 Receivers with its simple calibration setup. (excluding video handling and the sea of Inputs)

EQ Comparo

The TDA7563 Amp is no longer available for R&D so it's getting close to end of production. The TDA7801 seems the better "Game Changer" choice to build on (Data Sheet). 
i Think Someone installing a 8ch Active system is gonna want to play with their setup. Even if it makes it sound worse. We all Play...
But A Processor that lacks tweak-ability, monitor specs, & user interface and carrying a $800 price tag. Don't think it fills my need.


----------



## t3sn4f2

NvTwist said:


> Is this the same software and Algorithms used in your Lexicon Processor's??
> Cause the MS-8 reminded me of the RV-5 Receivers with its simple calibration setup. (excluding video handling and the sea of Inputs)
> 
> EQ Comparo
> 
> The TDA7563 Amp is no longer available for R&D so it's getting close to end of production. The TDA7801 seems the better "Game Changer" choice to build on (Data Sheet).
> i Think Someone installing a 8ch Active system is gonna want to play with their setup. Even if it makes it sound worse. We all Play...
> But A Processor that lacks tweak-ability, monitor specs, & user interface and carrying a $800 price tag. Don't think it fills my need.


It's Logic 7 designed for car interior characteristics versus the home version which is for a larger room.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy, how does the AUX input level setting relate to the 2.8 volt max in/out. If there is not preamp (ie line driver) how can it go +dB. Is max +dB then no attenuation and anything lower then that just an attenuation circuit?


----------



## GeoGeek

Just got done reading through the manual. If I understand it correctly, when connecting 8 channels of high level input from a factory amp we are only supposed to use the front left & right channels of signal (and sub if we have it). Won't this effectively diasble the fader capability of the factory head unit? Are we meant to use only the fader on the MS-8 from the remote? If we do choose to use all 8-channels of input (in my case, 2-way fronts & 2-way rears, no sub) will the fader function of the factory head unit be preserved? I apologize in advance if this has been covered in an earlier part of this thread.


----------



## Technic

GeoGeek said:


> Just got done reading through the manual. If I understand it correctly, when connecting 8 channels of high level input from a factory amp we are only supposed to use the front left & right channels of signal (and sub if we have it). Won't this effectively diasble the fader capability of the factory head unit? Are we meant to use only the fader on the MS-8 from the remote? If we do choose to use all 8-channels of input (in my case, 2-way fronts & 2-way rears, no sub) will the fader function of the factory head unit be preserved? I apologize in advance if this has been covered in an earlier part of this thread.


The way I understand this processor is that its Auto-EQ/Tuning will take over all control of your system, so any adjustments will have to be made thru the included remote control/display. The only exception will be the OEM volume control. 

I guess that you can simply connect all your OEM outputs, calibrate and Auto-EQ and then use your OEM fader and see for yourself what would happen with your sound, but that will seem like defeating the purpose of the Auto-EQ. In the worst case you can always adjust the fader with the remote control/display which I assume is designed to complement the Auto-EQ settings. 

Personally, I don't use my OEM fader at all as I rather use the processor output levels to set my front/back audio balance as part of my whole custom tuning in a set and forget fashion.


----------



## t3sn4f2

"If you’re using the MS-8 with an aftermarket head unit that has RCA-type outputs, connect the head unit’s front left and front right outputs to the MS-8’s line inputs 1 and 2 only. Do NOT connect any other head-unit output signals to the MS-8’s line inputs 3 – 8. During the calibration/setup process, the MS-8 will “normalize” the input signals and derive as many output signals as your speaker system requires."

I guess this applies to OEM head units as well that have more then one stereo channel pair of equal bandwidth.

No redundant inputs allowed I guess.


----------



## Sptsmed

I would be all in on a group buy as well


----------



## BMWTUBED

I would also take at least one in a group buy and also have a question.
If I want my midbass to do double duty as midbass and sub will the MS-8's bass managment support this? Sorry if this has already been covered...


----------



## Se7en

+1 on the Group Buy.


----------



## GeoGeek

Can the MS-8 deal with factory equalization curves in a dynamic way, i.e. in a way that varies with the volume setting on the factory head unit? I suspect that the answer is "no" and that the suggestion would be to calibrate at one fixed volume level from the factory head unit and then use the volume control on the MS-8, but my factory head unit integrates steering wheel volume controls that I'd like to preserve.
The ironic thing here is that what I'm trying to undo is the OEM induced equalization/cross-overs in a JBL OEM system....so that I can re-induce cross-over points and equalization with a different JBL processor.
If this turns out to be the right piece for me, I too would be interested in the group buy.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Man I tell you.........there is soooooo much useful information in that manual.


----------



## kkant

NvTwist said:


> i Think Someone installing a 8ch Active system is gonna want to play with their setup. Even if it makes it sound worse. We all Play...
> But A Processor that lacks tweak-ability, monitor specs, & user interface and carrying a $800 price tag. Don't think it fills my need.


For me, tweaking is a pain in the ass. I'll do it if I have to, of course. But if the processor works to 90% perfection with the push of a button, that is infinitely better to me than being able to tweak EQ (setting my own xover points is another story, and fortunately the MS-8 allows me to do this).

Furthermore, most other car processors have have weak 31-band EQs--and therefore there's no advantage to being able to tweak them. MS-8 also has a 31-band you can tweak, to be used to define the target curve rather than correct anomalies. The former is a purpose that a 31-band is suited for, while the latter is not.

So, I would ask, what other processor is out there that fills your need better than this one?


----------



## matt1212

Andy whats our chances of seeing a DD touchscreen head unit that could control the MS-8? From what you've stated, it seems entirely possible that the headunit could be plugged into the MS-8's display and usb inputs, and allow them to work flawlessly.


----------



## Shazzz

matt1212 said:


> Andy whats our chances of seeing a DD touchscreen head unit that could control the MS-8? From what you've stated, it seems entirely possible that the headunit could be plugged into the MS-8's display and usb inputs, and allow them to work flawlessly.


AMEN to this hopeful near future integration. Would make things a lot cleaner instead of this pesky little buger of a display. 

But with all due respect we luv ya Andy! Who else would have put up with all our harassment? 

Oh and + 1 more on the group buy


----------



## ErinH

This may have been touched on somehow elsewhere, so forgive me if this has been answered…

When it comes to being able to draw your own curve or do any fine tuning, can the user select a single driver to work with at a time, or is the fine tuning only available at the system level?


----------



## Swagger

Count me in for a group buy...


----------



## Wheres The Butta

me too for group buy!


----------



## jel847

so is this thing actually going to be availble?


----------



## matt1212

jel847 said:


> so is this thing actually going to be availble?


production starts in 3 days


----------



## CobraVin

jel847 said:


> so is this thing actually going to be availble?


production is schedules to begin on thurs 3/25

link to the manual on post # 1771

btw Jeff, i tried to respond to your PM but it would not go through on your end, check your settings, i posted the info on that thread as well
Vin


----------



## t3sn4f2

bikinpunk said:


> This may have been touched on somehow elsewhere, so forgive me if this has been answered…
> 
> When it comes to being able to draw your own curve or do any fine tuning, can the user select a single driver to work with at a time, or is the fine tuning only available at the system level?


These are the _only_ adjustible aspects after the calibration is done. You must run the calibration in order to get audio out.

"Audio Controls: This screen lets you adjust the system level, tone controls and 31-band graphic EQ, and engage/defeat the MS-8’s Logic 7 processing, digital signal processing (time correction and equalization) and seating-position optimization. The MS-8 also provides an option to reset all controls to their factory defaults."

EQ is system wide.


----------



## brett.b10

HI Andy
this is going to be an exciting product will the group buy be open for overseas forum users


----------



## 14642

kkant said:


> By the way, how did the MS-8 equipped cars do in the SQ comps this year?


It won.


----------



## TPMS

t3sn4f2 said:


> These are the _only_ adjustible aspects after the calibration is done. You must run the calibration in order to get audio out.
> 
> "Audio Controls: This screen lets you adjust the system level, tone controls and 31-band graphic EQ, and engage/defeat the MS-8’s Logic 7 processing, digital signal processing (time correction and equalization) and seating-position optimization. *The MS-8 also provides an option to reset all controls to their factory defaults*."
> 
> EQ is system wide.



interesting the "reset option" to compare the performance enhancement obtained through Ms-8 !
.. unfortunately this will not be possible when feeding ms-8 from pre-outs (FL and FR only, it has been said)
it has surely been answered somewhere earlier but just don't get why ms-8 is OK if fed by all speaker-level channels, whereas " Ms-8 can't downmix perfectly if it's fed center and sides .." as Andy said
or maybe just don't get what means that all pre-out channels could be connected " if they were filtered " ..
sorry, I am trying to recap and putting together all relevant notes .. 

in any case,if allowed, I m in for sure with the GB .


----------



## trigg007

Hmmm...MS-8 or DEX-P99RS???


----------



## Mic10is

Andy
what are the available XO points and slopes? Are the Xo points fully selectable or are they preset at like 1/3octaves? Which slopes are available and what type are they (linkwitz, butterworth etc...)

Do you think in a future upgrade it may be possible to allow all functions to be tweakable after Autotune?

also, what would you say is an ideal speaker size for center and rears in a Logic 7 set up?


----------



## AdamS

Mic10is said:


> Andy
> what are the available XO points and slopes? Are the Xo points fully selectable or are they preset at like 1/3octaves? Which slopes are available and what type are they (linkwitz, butterworth etc...)


Crossover Points are in specified in exact Hz. There are min and max frequency values in some places to prevent errors.

Slopes are 6,12,18, and 24 dB/octave

We use Linkwitz-Riley wherever applicable, otherwise Butterworth


----------



## kkant

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> It won.


Awesome. Damn, can't wait to get my hands on this.


----------



## 14642

Mic10is said:


> Andy
> what are the available XO points and slopes? Are the Xo points fully selectable or are they preset at like 1/3octaves? Which slopes are available and what type are they (linkwitz, butterworth etc...)
> 
> Do you think in a future upgrade it may be possible to allow all functions to be tweakable after Autotune?
> 
> also, what would you say is an ideal speaker size for center and rears in a Logic 7 set up?


Adam has already answered the question about crossovers.

I think once you try thie product, you'll find that all of that other stuff dosen't need to be tweaked after autotune. One of the reasons that we're all after all of this control of every parameter all the time is because stuff is never quite right. Trying a thousand iterations of crossovers and EQ takes us a long time, but it doesn't take MS-8 very long to try thousands of solutions. The slopes and frequencies get adjusted when each channel receives it's share of the EQ. Furthermore, MS-8 builds the system as you enter the info. Tuning with crossovers is overrated and I find that there are basic settings that work for almost all systems, so long as they're EQed properly. I can't tell you how many championship-winning IASCA cars I've helped out with where the single biggest problem was crossover selection based on a bunch of wishful thinking. Front stages crossed at 40Hz while the sub was crossed at 60 or 70, midbass that plays from 40-60Hz, etc. The best way is to use steep slopes, minimize interaction and cross speakers ABOVE their resonance. So long as you follow those rules, you'll be happy with the results. 

MS-8 may make this so easy that some of the mythology that currently makes tuning an "art" may be dispelled. I'd love that and so many more cars will sound great as a result. 

At the begining of this program, I told the engineers that I wanted a back door so I could tune stuff myself. I no longer want that back door, I just want an MS-8 of my own so I can put away the RTA and the mics and have fun listening.

Fortunately, I get serial #1. Adam already has one.


----------



## tornaido_3927

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Fortunately, I get serial #1. Adam already has one.


Way to make everyone jealous!
We all want one already, no need to tease!


----------



## rommelrommel

I guess you could always put a hextuplet of 31 band ranes on the outputs and tweak to your hearts content after the auto tune.


----------



## DS-21

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> At the begining of this program, I told the engineers that I wanted a back door so I could tune stuff myself. I no longer want that back door, I just want an MS-8 of my own so I can put away the RTA and the mics and have fun listening.


But Andy, you're destroying the lives of tweeks everywhere!


----------



## Lanson

I think someone said it before.. this is a game changer.


----------



## xr4tic

Definitely count me in on the group buy.

I have a question regarding the inputs

I've removed the stock amplifier in my 01 BMW M5, and have put RCA connections onto the stock head unit speaker outputs, which plug into my aftermarket amps. I've been told the factory head unit outputs a 5V balanced signal (10V peak to peak)

Will this be ok for the RCA inputs on the MS-8, or will I need to use the hi-level inputs?


----------



## tornaido_3927

xr4tic said:


> Definitely count me in on the group buy.
> 
> I have a question regarding the inputs
> 
> I've removed the stock amplifier in my 01 BMW M5, and have put RCA connections onto the stock head unit speaker outputs, which plug into my aftermarket amps. I've been told the factory head unit outputs a 5V balanced signal (10V peak to peak)
> 
> Will this be ok for the RCA inputs on the MS-8, or will I need to use the hi-level inputs?


Also regarding the inputs, my HU has 8v preouts (4v at 0db and 8v at +6db as per specs), will I have to set the HU volume low and just use the MS-8 volume instead of my HU?


----------



## ErinH

So, what happens when all the competitors switch to ms-8’s? Will they all tie?


----------



## CraigE

bikinpunk said:


> So, what happens when all the competitors switch to ms-8’s? Will they all tie?


GOOD ONE !!!!! LMAO

I'm all for putting away the RTA and having fun.


----------



## [email protected]

bikinpunk said:


> So, what happens when all the competitors switch to ms-8’s? Will they all tie?


That WAS a good one. :laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## DAT

bikinpunk said:


> So, what happens when all the competitors switch to ms-8’s? Will they all tie?


Hope not...


----------



## chefhow

bikinpunk said:


> So, what happens when all the competitors switch to ms-8’s? Will they all tie?


It will be very interesting to see how this effects the comps


----------



## pionkej

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Tuning with crossovers is overrated and I find that there are basic settings that work for almost all systems, so long as they're EQed properly. I can't tell you how many championship-winning IASCA cars I've helped out with where the single biggest problem was crossover selection based on a bunch of wishful thinking. Front stages crossed at 40Hz while the sub was crossed at 60 or 70, midbass that plays from 40-60Hz, etc. The best way is to use steep slopes, minimize interaction and cross speakers ABOVE their resonance. So long as you follow those rules, you'll be happy with the results.
> 
> MS-8 may make this so easy that some of the mythology that currently makes tuning an "art" may be dispelled. I'd love that and so many more cars will sound great as a result.


Andy-

For those of us who can't afford/don't need the MS-8 right now, you reference a very basic set of crossover settings that work for most systems. I understand crossing above the FS as I have read where you said that before, but when you say steep slopes, what kind of slopes are you talking? Steepest you have access to? 12db and invert phase on one set of speakers? 24db? 30db and align phase with t/a? Also, when doing this, do you underlap crossover points to where they meet at -3 db, -6db, etc? 

I think this would be wonderful information and appreciate if you have the time/willingness to share it with us.


----------



## ItalynStylion

So Andy...my birthday is April 20th.....just sayin


----------



## Se7en

Andy,

I must admit that I was a little surprised to see a mid-bass high pass restriction of 50hz in a 3 way front stage configuration (unless a sub was not in use and the subsonic filter was used for the front stage).

What you're saying here is that using a 50hz filter or higher will sound the same or as good as a system which would allow a much lower front stage xo point?

Thanks for clarifying.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Adam has already answered the question about crossovers.
> 
> I think once you try thie product, you'll find that all of that other stuff dosen't need to be tweaked after autotune. One of the reasons that we're all after all of this control of every parameter all the time is because stuff is never quite right. Trying a thousand iterations of crossovers and EQ takes us a long time, but it doesn't take MS-8 very long to try thousands of solutions. The slopes and frequencies get adjusted when each channel receives it's share of the EQ. Furthermore, MS-8 builds the system as you enter the info. Tuning with crossovers is overrated and I find that there are basic settings that work for almost all systems, so long as they're EQed properly. I can't tell you how many championship-winning IASCA cars I've helped out with where the single biggest problem was crossover selection based on a bunch of wishful thinking. Front stages crossed at 40Hz while the sub was crossed at 60 or 70, midbass that plays from 40-60Hz, etc. The best way is to use steep slopes, minimize interaction and cross speakers ABOVE their resonance. So long as you follow those rules, you'll be happy with the results.
> 
> MS-8 may make this so easy that some of the mythology that currently makes tuning an "art" may be dispelled. I'd love that and so many more cars will sound great as a result.
> 
> At the begining of this program, I told the engineers that I wanted a back door so I could tune stuff myself. I no longer want that back door, I just want an MS-8 of my own so I can put away the RTA and the mics and have fun listening.
> 
> Fortunately, I get serial #1. Adam already has one.


----------



## ErinH

ItalynStylion said:


> So Andy...my birthday is April 20th.....just sayin


stoner


----------



## kkant

Se7en said:


> What you're saying here is that using a 50hz filter or higher will sound the same or as good as a system which would allow a much lower front stage xo point?


I'm not Andy, but the answer is yes. Actually I would say not just "as good as" but "better"--especially when you're driving around and need to turn it up to compensate for road noise.


----------



## Lanson

kkant said:


> I'm not Andy, but the answer is yes. Actually I would say not just "as good as" but "better"--especially when you're driving around and need to turn it up to compensate for road noise.



Probably goes back to the philosophy that the system will try to cross the speakers over before resonance.


----------



## kkant

pionkej said:


> Steepest you have access to?


That's what I go with.


pionkej said:


> Also, when doing this, do you underlap crossover points to where they meet at -3 db, -6db, etc?


The whole underlap/overlap thing is a hack to compensate for lack of EQ. As such, there are no "rules" for this--you just play around with it. Ultimately underlapping doesn't really work well, IME. You end up just cutting out the broad areas where your system has problems, which gets rid of the crappy sound in that range but also gets rid of the good sound in that range. The only exception might be in the upper subbass--but even there, a proper EQ works better.


----------



## Se7en

fourthmeal said:


> Probably goes back to the philosophy that the system will try to cross the speakers over before resonance.


This makes sense but it does introduce a restriction to those capable of generating subsonic frequencies up front without the limited headroom of smaller drivers.

50hz certainly isn't a big deal provided the right slope can be selected.


----------



## ErinH

Going back to my question earlier, let’s say that your install is the fault of some buzzing or tactile feedback. I know the ideal method is to find and fix this buzzing, but it's not as easy to do with tactile energy, so I wonder… has this come up in testing the ms-8, where the ms-8 was successfully able to resolve this issue?


----------



## kkant

Se7en said:


> This makes sense but it does introduce a restriction to those capable of generating subsonic frequencies up front without the limited headroom of smaller drivers.


I don't follow you. Are you saying you have a large sub up front? If so, how is this a restriction?


----------



## Se7en

kkant said:


> I don't follow you. Are you saying you have a large sub up front? If so, how is this a restriction?


I technically have 3 subs in the car, 2 of which are double duty midbass drivers (Dyn MW182s). They are currently high passed at 30hz without door resonance. If I were to high pass them at 50hz, I will still get output well below 50 but even with a 1st order slope, I will be down by a significant degree at 30hz. 

The MS 8 gives the choice of one or two subs but only one subsonic filter and a high pass restriction of 50hz for my midbass. 

I'm not saying that this will ultimately hurt the sound (why the request for opinion or clarification was extended in the first place) but it is in fact a restriction.


----------



## Knobby Digital

ItalynStylion said:


> April 20th


imp:


----------



## kkant

Se7en said:


> I technically have 3 subs in the car, 2 of which are double duty midbass drivers (Dyn MW182s). They are currently high passed at 30hz without door resonance. If I were to high pass them at 50hz, I will still get output well below 50 but even with a 1st order slope, I will be down by a significant degree at 30hz.
> 
> The MS 8 gives the choice of one or two subs but only one subsonic filter and a high pass restriction of 50hz for my midbass.
> 
> I'm not saying that this will ultimately hurt the sound (why the request for opinion or clarification was extended in the first place) but it is in fact a restriction.


I guess I would question the use of 10" stereo midbass drivers, especially when you already have a sub. First of all, way down that low stereo doesn't matter. The wavelength is 20+ feet, and your interior responds more like a pressure chamber than rocks thrown in a pool. Second, you do pay a price for having too large a diameter on midbass, on the high side of the band. Like increased beaming, and a much higher possibility of exciting out-of-band resonances via non-linear distortion. The latter is something that MS-8 can't fix, and it is possible for this to be a significant effect. What is the size of the midrange drivers above the 10's? How big is the sub below the 10's?


----------



## Se7en

kkant said:


> I guess I would question the use of 10" stereo midbass drivers, especially when you already have a sub. First of all, way down that low stereo doesn't matter. The wavelength is 20+ feet, and your interior responds more like a pressure chamber than rocks thrown in a pool. Second, you do pay a price for having too large a diameter on midbass, on the high side of the band. Like increased beaming, and a much higher possibility of exciting out-of-band resonances via non-linear distortion. The latter is something that MS-8 can't fix, and it is possible for this to be a significant effect. What is the size of the midrange drivers above the 10's? How big is the sub below the 10's?


The midbass drivers are 9.4" and are operating from 30-250hz (although they can play much higher). 

The mids are 4" operating from 250 up and are mounted in the kicks.

The sub is 12" playing IB and is there just to augment the lowest frequencies.


----------



## kkant

Se7en said:


> The mids are 4" operating from 250 up and are mounted in the kicks.


That's way too low for a 4" in-car, IMO. I'd move the xover point up to about 700. Even then you are running right at the edge for both drivers--it's not going to sound as good or get as loud as drivers of this quality and expense should. If I were you, I'd replace the 10's with 7's, and set the xover point at about 1k.


----------



## Alias essSQuee

This is spence. Where is my MS-8? :laugh:


----------



## lycan

kkant said:


> That's way too low for a 4" in-car, IMO. I'd move the xover point up to about 700. Even then you are running right at the edge for both drivers--it's not going to sound as good or get as loud as drivers of this quality and expense should. If I were you, I'd replace the 10's with 7's, and set the xover point at about 1k.


SPL as a function of volume displacement is _not_ a matter of opinion.

50 cm^2 of Sd, with 3mm of one-way xmax, gets you almost 102dB of _linear_ SPL at 250Hz (one meter).

Furthermore, you'll also be _at least_ an octave above the resonant frequency of any decent 4.5" driver.

Certainly acceptable to me


----------



## kkant

lycan said:


> SPL as a function of volume displacement is _not_ a matter of opinion.
> 
> 50 cm^2 of Sd, with 3mm of one-way xmax, gets you almost 102dB of _linear_ SPL at 250Hz (one meter).
> 
> Furthermore, you'll also be _at least_ an octave above the resonant frequency of any decent 4.5" driver.
> 
> Certainly acceptable to me


102? Bah. 110, minimum.


----------



## lycan

kkant said:


> 102? Bah. 110, minimum.


Well, how loud a dude likes it is certainly subjective 

But honestly, especially in the confined boundaries of a vehicle, 250Hz is not asking too much from a 4.5" driver.

However ... it _is_ asking quite a bit (too much, in my view) from a 3" driver.


----------



## rawdawg

bikinpunk said:


> So, what happens when all the competitors switch to ms-8’s? Will they all tie?


I would imagine type of vehicle, speaker selection, placement, install and differences in judging will keep the game alive.


----------



## Lanson

rawdawg said:


> I would imagine type of vehicle, speaker selection, placement, install and differences in judging will keep the game alive.


Or it could come down to how much tech-flex you use in your build.


----------



## t3sn4f2

fourthmeal said:


> Or it could come down to how much tech-flex you use in your build.


Or even the car with the least fart smell.


----------



## DAT

rawdawg said:


> I would imagine type of vehicle, speaker selection, placement, install and differences in judging will keep the game alive.


Maybe IASCA, MECA and USAC will start new classes,

those with the MS 8 and those without. 

Plus anyone using Scans would be DQ'ed


----------



## trigg007

rawdawg said:


> I would imagine type of vehicle, speaker selection, placement, install and differences in judging will keep the game alive.


sure they will...its subjective


----------



## Grim0013

fourthmeal said:


> Or it could come down to how much tech-flex you use in your build.


Yo dog, I heard yo' like tech-flex, so we tech-flexed yo' tech-flex so yo' can flex yo' tech-flex wit yo' tech-flex.


P.S. Thanks for reminding me; I need to order some tech-flex for my install.


----------



## jimbno1

This limit on the midbass high pass is one thing that drives me crazy with any processor. It is similar to the midrange limit on my P9 of 250 Hz. Why? If I want to play my mid down to 100Hz why limit my options. If you can have a 30 Hz crossover for a sub why not a midbass. It is obviously possible technically. 

What if I have a tweeter that is able to play at 1 KHz? Should I be limited to a 1.8 KHz crossover?

Why not have all the crossover points available for any output? If someone blows a tweeter or mid by misuse it is their own darn fault. 

That being said I still want to know when the group buy happens. 

Jim


----------



## dkh

I'm hoping if anything, the MS8 will raise the bar in competition as the ground rules still apply - install, speakers then in very increasing diminishing returns HU > amps > etc etc


----------



## CraigE

Andy,
Will The JBL Website be updated soon to reflect your products that will work well with the MS-8.
Currently most of the speakers come with passive X-overs that won't be needed. I'm also very interested in this; "They're amps and they're about 7.5" x 7.5" x 2.5" ".
Let's say I love the MS-8 so much, that I want to replace my entire system with all JBL stuff, what do I do?
Tried using the dealer locator and it come up "Not Found".
Maybe I'm jumping the gun.


----------



## kkant

lycan said:


> Well, how loud a dude likes it is certainly subjective
> 
> But honestly, especially in the confined boundaries of a vehicle, 250Hz is not asking too much from a 4.5" driver.
> 
> However ... it _is_ asking quite a bit (too much, in my view) from a 3" driver.


I still think 250 is way too low for a 4.5. Why run the drivers to the ragged edge, when the OP doesn't have to? That is poor design. Whether the vehicle is confined or not, the system has to overcome a minimum of 60 db road noise. And that's if you have a lexus ls460 with additional sound dampening. More likely you have to overcome 70db road noise. 100 db is perfectly acceptable in a home system, but IMO not at all in a car.

Especially considering that, in the presence of sufficient EQ, the only point of getting expensive drivers is to allow the system to get louder while retaining linearity. Driving an expensive 4.5 down to 250 completely defeats the purpose.


----------



## benny z

my 3s play 150hz to 6700hz. ...and i have run them down to 135hz in the past with success, too.


----------



## BigRed

great things have happened at 160hz.....and a 3" at that


----------



## kkant

benny z said:


> my 3s play 150hz to 6700hz. ...and i have run them down to 135hz in the past with success, too.


Hell, they'll play down to 15hz. At 50 db. But it's not gonna sound real good when you turn it up a bit.


----------



## kkant

BigRed said:


> great things have happened at 160hz.....and a 3" at that


In a house, perhaps. Not in a car that has to drive on the road.


----------



## trigg007

kkant said:


> In a house, perhaps. Not in a car that has to drive on the road.


No offense, you obviously have a high degree of technical experience here, but you might consider looking at some of these guys installs...many of them I'd bet are much quiter than the Lexus you mention and most of them compete, where there will be zero road noise.


----------



## benny z

kkant said:


> Hell, they'll play down to 15hz. At 50 db. But it's not gonna sound real good when you turn it up a bit.


lol - sure... 

never mind the fact that i have been running this way for a couple of years or so and have competed successfully with this configuration. ...and no, i don't listen quietly. :blush:


----------



## jimbno1

Competing is one thing. Listening while driving is another. Are the 3's and 4's loud enough for listening while driving with low crossover?


----------



## benny z

yes. i listen at about 115db. windows up, down, stationary, 80+ on the interstate, whatever...plenty of volume for these ears.


----------



## kkant

trigg007 said:


> No offense, you obviously have a high degree of technical experience here, but you might consider looking at some of these guys installs...many of them I'd bet are much quiter than the Lexus you mention and most of them compete, where there will be zero road noise.


True, if you compete it doesn't matter. But then again, if there's no road noise and you don't have to play your system loud, why bother getting expensive speakers? With good EQ's like the MS8, at lower volumes the speakers don't matter. JBL won at SBN using the stock BMW mids.

I'm also curious about your comment on being quieter than a Lexus (i.e. quieter than 60 db at cruise). Do competitors measure noise levels while on the road? What kind of levels are we talking about, at say 70 mph cruise? I would be very skeptical of a claim of such quietness, without some evidence to back it up. 

I'll say again--the only point of getting expensive speakers in the presence of a good EQ is to get louder while maintaining linearity. With a good EQ, at low volumes, the cheap speakers sound just as good as the pricey ones.


----------



## kkant

benny z said:


> yes. i listen at about 115db. windows up, down, stationary, 80+ on the interstate, whatever...plenty of volume for these ears.


At that volume, it will sound better if you pick better xover points. The question is...do you want it to sound better?


----------



## Lanson

Go look at the distortion plots on a small 3-4" driver at those low frequencies. Zaph has done a lot of groundwork here. That's why I wouldn't do it. Just because they do play at that frequency doesn't mean they have a distortion profile you'd want to have.


----------



## Problemhouston

kkant said:


> I'll say again--the only point of getting expensive speakers in the presence of a good EQ is to get louder while maintaining linearity. With a good EQ, at low volumes, the cheap speakers sound just as good as the pricey ones.


This is exactly what I was wondering yesterday while reading this thread. I am planning on getting an MS-* at some point for my BMW but with the size of the drivers in the car it is such a pain in the butt to upgrade speakers and after reading the thread I don't see a reason to do it at this point. There is an 8 inch midbass under the seat, 4 in the door and tweet in the pillar. All I would have to do is add a true sub in the trunk and let MS-8 tune the dang thing and be done with it. I would assume that the built in amps from the MS-8 are more powerful than the factory amp maybe not double the power I need for the 3db gain but still enough to get plenty loud.


----------



## benny z

kkant said:


> At that volume, it will sound better if you pick better xover points. The question is...do you want it to sound better?


i'm not on a quest for my system to sound better. i am 100% happy with it as-is. i have tried other crossover points. what i am running now gives me pinpoint imaging and if there is distortion it is inaudible to everyone who has auditioned my system. the wide bandwidth driver places the entire male vocal range on my dash.

i wasn't trying to interject that everyone should do what i do, but for me it works very well. my point was that a crossover-point-limiting processor is a processor that will never make an appearance in my car.

that's all.

thanks,
ben


----------



## kkant

Problemhouston said:


> This is exactly what I was wondering yesterday while reading this thread. I am planning on getting an MS-* at some point for my BMW but with the size of the drivers in the car it is such a pain in the butt to upgrade speakers and after reading the thread I don't see a reason to do it at this point. There is an 8 inch midbass under the seat, 4 in the door and tweet in the pillar. All I would have to do is add a true sub in the trunk and let MS-8 tune the dang thing and be done with it. I would assume that the built in amps from the MS-8 are more powerful than the factory amp maybe not double the power I need for the 3db gain but still enough to get plenty loud.


Sounds like a good plan to me. I would get that sub, and then raise all the other xover points a little bit higher than stock. That way the sub not only fills out the low end, but also raises the overall volume capability of the system. This is especially important since you plan to use the MS8 speaker outputs. The higher xover points (on the 8's particularly) allow you to maximize output with the limited power from the MS-8's amps.


----------



## ItalynStylion

kkant said:


> In a house, perhaps. Not in a car that has to drive on the road.


Can't speak for the vehicles...but I have 4" drivers that play dead flat (actually a tad bottom heavy) to 40hz in room. It's really just about getting the right enclosure for them 

Shouldn't this be a different thread? Let's not junk up this one....


----------



## ca90ss

benny z said:


> yes. i listen at about 115db. windows up, down, stationary, 80+ on the interstate, whatever...plenty of volume for these ears.


Unless you're wearing them as headphones there's no way you're coming anywhere near 115db with a pair of 3" drivers let alone crossed at 150hz.


----------



## 14642

Look, there are a thousand ways to skin a cat. MS-8 will skin the cat in its own way and will also allow you to skin a cat in about 100 other ways. That leaves 900 unsupported cat skinning methods, but the ones we allow always work, and that's the most important benefit for us. Sometimes providing a consistently successful outcome requires constraining the forms of input.

If your criteria dictates that you have to skin a cat in one of the ways not supported by MS-8 (by choosing crossover points that MS-8 won't support) then MS-8 isn't the right cat skinner for you. If someday, you discover that something that MS-8 will do outweighs the need to skin the cat in exactly the way you're skinning it now, then we'll be super happy to have you as a customer.


----------



## benny z

ca90ss said:


> Unless you're wearing them as headphones there's no way you're coming anywhere near 115db with a pair of 3" drivers let alone crossed at 150hz.


i love how people can make statements like this so matter of factly - without ever stepping foot inside the vehicle.  ...just like the guy who said matter of factly that my system could absolutely be made to sound better by raising the crossover points.

forget it - my point about the processor limitation was made.

thanks,
ben


----------



## western47

Andy,

Would it be wise to keep the typical 'best practices' for a stereo setup when using the MS-8 with a center channel? 

Things I would consider 'best practices' would be kick panel locations for the front left and right speakers, center channel in the middle of the dash firing into the windshield. 

I am also quite interested in a unit from a group buy.

Thanks for all the hard work.


----------



## ca90ss

benny z said:


> i love how people can make statements like this so matter of factly - without ever stepping foot inside the vehicle.


It is a fact, do the math.


----------



## benny z

ca90ss said:


> It is a fact, do the math.


i'm sorry, but math fails you.

seriously? do we need to continue this debate? do i need to get out the spl meter for you?


----------



## ca90ss

benny z said:


> do i need to get out the spl meter for you?


Yep, meter it at 250hz and lets see the results.


----------



## Lanson

I wish I could sig that. Alas it is too long. I love it though.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Look, there are a thousand ways to skin a cat. MS-8 will skin the cat in its own way and will also allow you to skin a cat in about 100 other ways. That leaves 900 unsupported cat skinning methods, but the ones we allow always work, and that's the most important benefit for us. Sometimes providing a consistently successful outcome requires constraining the forms of input.
> 
> If your criteria dictates that you have to skin a cat in one of the ways not supported by MS-8 (by choosing crossover points that MS-8 won't support) then MS-8 isn't the right cat skinner for you. If someday, you discover that something that MS-8 will do outweighs the need to skin the cat in exactly the way you're skinning it now, then we'll be super happy to have you as a customer.


----------



## Wonway

ca90ss said:


> Yep, meter it at 250hz and lets see the results.


Get the 250 hz reference mic out Benny Z.


----------



## michaelsil1

Skin a Cat!


----------



## kkant

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Look, there are a thousand ways to skin a cat. MS-8 will skin the cat in its own way and will also allow you to skin a cat in about 100 other ways. That leaves 900 unsupported cat skinning methods, but the ones we allow always work, and that's the most important benefit for us. Sometimes providing a consistently successful outcome requires constraining the forms of input.
> 
> If your criteria dictates that you have to skin a cat in one of the ways not supported by MS-8 (by choosing crossover points that MS-8 won't support) then MS-8 isn't the right cat skinner for you. If someday, you discover that something that MS-8 will do outweighs the need to skin the cat in exactly the way you're skinning it now, then we'll be super happy to have you as a customer.


Well said.


----------



## BMWTUBED

*Head Civic vs. Biggs BMW*

With all of this talk about how this unit could change competitions, it got me thinking about how the competition winning Civic of Steve Head would do against the competition winning BMW of Gary Biggs. The build philosophy of these two vehicles really couldn't be more different - the BMW is nearly all stock and the Civic is as far from stock as any system could be. Anyone out there heard both and care to comment on the two? I've heard the Civic, but not the BMW.


----------



## benny z

didn't scott b just blow the doors off gary's scores with his nissan the other weekend?



...and i'll bet he did it with wide-bandwidth midrange drivers.


----------



## Wonway

benny z said:


> didn't scott b just blow the doors off gary's scores with his nissan the other weekend?
> 
> 
> 
> ...and i'll bet he did it with wide-bandwidth midrange drivers.


Yeah, but he only did it with 112 db.


----------



## BigRed

I'll be getting a MS-8 because I believe in the benefits of center steering. I really don't care if it picks the crossover points or not. I'll set them much lower than I should


----------



## quality_sound

kkant said:


> That's way too low for a 4" in-car, IMO. I'd move the xover point up to about 700. Even then you are running right at the edge for both drivers--it's not going to sound as good or get as loud as drivers of this quality and expense should. If I were you, I'd replace the 10's with 7's, and set the xover point at about 1k.


I ran every 4 I ever owned that low, and at times down to 150, with no problems. Replacing the 10s with 7s is a terrible idea.


----------



## ca90ss

Wonway said:


> Get the 250 hz reference mic out Benny Z.


Lycan already established earlier that a 4" driver with 3mm xmax is capable of only 102db at 250 hz. Obviously, neither of you have the slightest idea what it takes to do 115db full range but I can assure you it's not going to happen with a pair of 3" midrange drivers crossed at 150hz.


----------



## kkant

quality_sound said:


> Replacing the 10s with 7s is a terrible idea.


Why?


----------



## chad

methinks someone does not know what full bandwidth 115dB is all about, and methinks if they did, and they did it all the time they may as well remove the tweets because they ain't hearing above 6K anyway. Shut the sub off and make 115dB.

here's a hint, if I mixed a rock band in a rock club, known for LOUD AS HELL metal bands at 115dBA I'd be out a job really quick.


----------



## rain27

The majority of negative comments I've heard about the MS-8 so far is that it doesn't allow for fully manual adjustments. The distinguishing characteristic of this unit has always been it's auto-tune function. Fully adjustable processors have been around for years, so I'm not sure why those who want maximum flexibility were waiting around for the MS-8 to begin with. The MS-8 provides a real solution for the 99.9% of us that suck at tuning.


----------



## lycan

chad said:


> methinks someone does not know what full bandwidth 115dB is all about, and methinks if they did, and they did it all the time they may as well remove the tweets because they ain't hearing above 6K anyway. Shut the sub off and make 115dB.
> 
> here's a hint, if I mixed a rock band in a rock club, known for LOUD AS HELL metal bands at 115dBA I'd be out a job really quick.


Anybody who thinks they really need ... or even routinely _achieve_ ... 115dB across the midrange is smoking some serious crack. And yeah, if they do achieve it routinely ... they can say goodbye to their hearing pretty damn soon 

But ... to each their own  If you want to put 10" midrange drivers in your vehicle to mate with the 15" midbass you must have, so you can hit a linear 115dB at freqs where cabin gain is nill (not 15" subs, mind you ... how much volume displacement do you need for 115dB at 70Hz? That's not a matter of opinion) more power to you!

EDIT : and to those who really DO routinely listen at 115dB in the midrange, do you really think you're very sensitive to the distortion profile of the drivers in question, at that volume level? Or are you happy that you just don't smell smoke?


----------



## BMWTUBED

rain27 said:


> The majority of negative comments I've heard about the MS-8 so far is that it doesn't allow for fully manual adjustments. The distinguishing characteristic of this unit has always been it's auto-tune function. Fully adjustable processors have been around for years, so I'm not sure why those who want maximum flexibility were waiting around for the MS-8 to begin with. The MS-8 provides a real solution for the 99.9% of us that suck at tuning.


I suck at tuning and would like an autotune. I would have bought the Imprint, but it had bad reviews (I hope this is better than Imprint). The Alpine F1 unit had autotune and roadeq, but I couldn't justify the $$. The MS-8 was supposed to be special IMO, because it autotuned and was fully adjustable. Not saying I ain't gonna get one, because I'm sure I will, but it's not as adjustable as I personally thought it would be. Not a deal killer for me unless it preforms no better than the Imprint...


----------



## Wonway

ca90ss said:


> Lycan already established earlier that a 4" driver with 3mm xmax is capable of only 102db at 250 hz. Obviously, neither of you have the slightest idea what it takes to do 115db full range but I can assure you it's not going to happen with a pair of 3" midrange drivers crossed at 150hz.


Benny's comment was not that his 3" drivers were doing 115 db, but his system as a whole. I think he is a bit high with that number for normal listening, but his car is quite capable of those numbers. I have RTA'ed his car and his car is damn near flat, but of course it was not measured at those levels.


----------



## lycan

benny z said:


> didn't scott b just blow the doors off gary's scores with his nissan the other weekend?
> 
> 
> 
> ...and i'll bet he did it with wide-bandwidth midrange drivers.


What were the SBN scores? Was Gary running the MS-8 at SBN?


----------



## jimbno1

I agree the lack of fully flexible crossovers is not a deal breaker for me either. But why not have both a fully flexible manual processor and a truly useful auto-tuner in the same box. To mix metaphors it is just a little disappointing to get 7/8 of a loaf when it seems it could have easily been the whole enchilada.

Now the important thing is when can we order or do a group buy or something?


----------



## Sex Cells

I'd like to see a BitOne skin a cat.


----------



## Bizarroterl

ROTFL!


----------



## rain27

I look at it this way:

If you are a great tuner, which very few are, you don't need an MS-8 (apart from saving time).

And if you are awful at tuning, you need an MS-8 and definitely don't need full manual controls because you would be more likely to make things worse than better.

I imagine if everyone was great at tuning no one would care about the MS-8. You would already feel your system could sound no better.


----------



## Grim0013

jimbno1 said:


> This limit on the midbass high pass is one thing that drives me crazy with any processor. It is similar to the midrange limit on my P9 of 250 Hz. Why? If I want to play my mid down to 100Hz why limit my options. If you can have a 30 Hz crossover for a sub why not a midbass. It is obviously possible technically.
> 
> What if I have a tweeter that is able to play at 1 KHz? Should I be limited to a 1.8 KHz crossover?
> 
> Why not have all the crossover points available for any output? If someone blows a tweeter or mid by misuse it is their own darn fault.
> 
> That being said I still want to know when the group buy happens.
> 
> Jim


I am not certain I understand the complaint. Are you talking a 2-way or 3-way front setup? Looking over the manual, when using a sub, i see:

*2-way*
mid = (50-200) - (50-10k)
High = (50-10k) - ...

*3-way*
midbass = (50-200) - (100-10k)
midrange = (100-10k) - (200-10k)
high = (200-10k) - ...



jimbno1 said:


> If I want to play my mid down to 100Hz why limit my options.


It looks like in a 2-way, you can cross your mid as low as 50 Hz and in 3-way, the midrange can be crossed as low as 100 Hz, with the midbass down as low as 50 Hz.



jimbno1 said:


> If you can have a 30 Hz crossover for a sub why not a midbass. It is obviously possible technically.


In both 2-way and 3-way, it looks as though you can set the x-over of the lowest-playing front speaker down to 50 Hz.


Now, this is all assuming I am understanding your complaint correctly, feel free to *****-slap me if I did not understand correctly.


----------



## rommelrommel

I thought you can set the crossover as low as allowed but it doesn't necessarily mean that the MS8 will agree with you, and if it doesn't it will override them to what it feels are best.


----------



## Grim0013

rommelrommel said:


> I thought you can set the crossover as low as allowed but it doesn't necessarily mean that the MS8 will agree with you, and if it doesn't it will override them to what it feels are best.


I am pretty sure Andy stated a month or so back that crossover points are a purely user selected variable. I think I recall something about the logic for x-over selection making poor decisions too frequently to be permissible in the released product.


----------



## doitor

benny z said:


> didn't scott b just blow the doors off gary's scores with his nissan the other weekend?


Scott took first over Mark Eldridge in Expert two seat.
Gary lost to Chris Pate in Expert one seat.



lycan said:


> Was Gary running the MS-8 at SBN?


Yes.

J.


----------



## trigg007

kkant said:


> I'm also curious about your comment on being quieter than a Lexus (i.e. quieter than 60 db at cruise). Do competitors measure noise levels while on the road? What kind of levels are we talking about, at say 70 mph cruise? I would be very skeptical of a claim of such quietness, without some evidence to back it up.



Wow, so you are more interested in a debate rather than making friends? Or did we offend "the" because you own a Lexus

Quite frankly, I could care less about a debate regarding scientific data...I trust my ears


----------



## benny z

I'm sorry I have to correct myself. I did a quick spl test at my normal listening level and am only listening at ~95db. My mistake and apologies. I do feel this is still plenty loud and have no issues with my 3s playing as low as they do at this level.


----------



## chad

benny z said:


> I'm sorry I have to correct myself. I did a quick spl test at my normal listening level and am only listening at ~95db. My mistake and apologies. I do feel this is still plenty loud and have no issues with my 3s playing as low as they do at this level.


Whew! I was getting skert.

What weighting? C weighted 115 is totally possible normally, on the loud side but doable. A weighted.. that's SCREAMING.


----------



## benny z

C weighed... In all honesty I was not near my "real" SPL meter, so I just downloaded a free SPL meter app for my iPhone and did a quick reading that way. It may not be 100% accurate, but it should be in the ballpark. I just used the Audioslave CD I have been listening to for the past few days as it was already in the player and convenient. No test tones handy.


----------



## kkant

trigg007 said:


> Wow, so you are more interested in a debate rather than making friends? Or did we offend "the" because you own a Lexus
> 
> Quite frankly, I could care less about a debate regarding scientific data...I trust my ears


Woah. Chill the **** down. No, you didn't offend me, and no I don't own a lex at the moment. I just want to know if it is possible to really make a car that quiet. I've done my share of sound deadening, and while it helps, I think it can only help so much--the design of the car seems to be the limiting factor. If you can really get a car much quieter than 60 db at 70 mph cruise, I'd like to know about it (so I can do it myself!)

So I'm not asking for a debate on this, I just want to see the figures.


----------



## goodstuff




----------



## timelord9

can we please get back on topic and discuss the MS-8? Take your OT ramblings about C Weighted SPL comps with 3" subs to the, ahhh, SPL section. 

I'm interested in the best way to implement a centre channel now. I have the HAT 841 set as the front stage, and have the space in the dash to probably fit up to a 6" woofer. maybe. Can definitely put a 4" driver there though. What would be some good ways to go about implementing a 4" and tweeter given I've only got 1 channel left (3 way L+R, sub, centre)? Do I need a tweeter at all? How low should the centre be highpassed? Would a single L4 vented into the dash, high passed above 200hz with no LPF, work successfully or am I dreaming?

In other words, how much work should go into the centre channel? I'd like to compete successfully in 2 seat SQ.


----------



## chad

trigg007 said:


> Quite frankly, I could care less about a debate regarding scientific data...


Ever walked into a women's restroom by mistake and suddenly realized that you are in the wrong place?


----------



## lycan

chad said:


> Ever walked into a women's restroom by mistake and suddenly realized that you are in the wrong place?


happens to me _all the damn time_.

why do ya think that is?


----------



## chad

I did it 3 times in 2 days when my wife was in the hospital.. the hallway for the restrooms were the same length, same corners rounded.... opposite sides of the hall of that at work.


----------



## trevordj

timelord9 said:


> can we please get back on topic and discuss the MS-8? Take your OT ramblings about C Weighted SPL comps with 3" subs to the, ahhh, SPL section.
> 
> I'm interested in the best way to implement a centre channel now. I have the HAT 841 set as the front stage, and have the space in the dash to probably fit up to a 6" woofer. maybe. Can definitely put a 4" driver there though. What would be some good ways to go about implementing a 4" and tweeter given I've only got 1 channel left (3 way L+R, sub, centre)? Do I need a tweeter at all? How low should the centre be highpassed? Would a single L4 vented into the dash, high passed above 200hz with no LPF, work successfully or am I dreaming?
> 
> In other words, how much work should go into the centre channel? I'd like to compete successfully in 2 seat SQ.


IIRC Andy stated some pages ago that the center channel should be played as low as close to full range as possible. This was in response to my question of running a HAT L3 and L1Pro tweeter. Given the capability of the unit to steer the center midbass to the L and R he said this would be fine. If you were able to run an L4 and tweeter passive in the dash that would be fine based on his advice. I don't know about running a single L4 without a tweeter. I seem to recall someone posing this question at some point but can't remember the final outcome. It seems as if this would be difficult as it would be impossible to get the center on axis for both front seats.


----------



## benny z

I don't see how this is going to magically make a two seat prime listening zone. You are still a lot closer to the left or right speaker set when sitting on either side of the car and the levels will never be right for either seat.

I guess the whole concept of a center channel for stereo music is so foreign to me that it just seems assinine. You don't need a center speaker to pull off a very convincing center image.


----------



## lycan

chad said:


> I did it 3 times in 2 days when my wife was in the hospital.. the hallway for the restrooms were the same length, same corners rounded.... opposite sides of the hall of that at work.


thing is, i usually pee sitting down too. any ideas?


----------



## chad

lycan said:


> thing is, i usually pee sitting down too. any ideas?


Yer middle-eastern. Or blind.


----------



## lycan

chad said:


> Yer middle-eastern. Or blind.


My mom used to tell me that i'd go blind. So i asked if i could just do it, until i needed glasses.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

benny z said:


> I guess the whole concept of a center channel for stereo music is so foreign to me that it just seems assinine. You don't need a center speaker to pull off a very convincing center image.


 a center channel is great to have if you desire a multimedia system.


----------



## thehatedguy

You're pierced below the belt?



lycan said:


> thing is, i usually pee sitting down too. any ideas?


----------



## thehatedguy

But a majority of what we try to do is to create a phantom center with PLDs. 

The center channel would give you a real center, and this is important since this is where most of the music is happening.

Then, imagine drawing triangles from the left to the center, and then center to right. All of those angles would be more similar, and thus PLDs would be more equal.

That's how a center would help getting you two seat listening.



benny z said:


> I don't see how this is going to magically make a two seat prime listening zone. You are still a lot closer to the left or right speaker set when sitting on either side of the car and the levels will never be right for either seat.
> 
> I guess the whole concept of a center channel for stereo music is so foreign to me that it just seems assinine. You don't need a center speaker to pull off a very convincing center image.


----------



## designerfh

This whole center channel thing is making me rethink my whole system. With 8 outputs, I can do:

1. Active three channel, 2 way front stage taking up six outputs, and a sub output for a total of 7. 
2. Active two channel, 3 way front stage taking up six outputs, a center channel (rely on amp crossover?) taking up one output, and sub - for a total of 8. 
3. Active three channel, 3 way front, mids and highs from one channel each (use amp crossover), midbasses on one channel each, for six channels. Sub on one, for a total of 7. 

Are there any other options i am missing that still leverages everything the MS8 can do? I'd like to provide ms8 control to the drivers that need it most, but im not sure which ones those are.


----------



## t3sn4f2

JBL's MS-8. What does it do? - Page 3 - CARSOUND.COM Forum

*Werewolf:*

"Andy, sounds like a FANTASTIC product 

One comment if I may, followed by a couple questions :

I'm certainly one of the guys favoring a digital input. But I really do completely agree with everything you've said on this topic. Although I do prefer digital transmission (and storage) whenever possible, differential (or balanced) inputs are the very next-best thing for noise management. And you have less misunderstanings & compatibility issues to worry about.

And now for the questions, mostly pertaining to the center channel (yes, i'm a center-channel advocate in the car):

- What bandwidth is typically recommended for Logic 7 center processing ... how low, and how high?

- Is the Logic 7 algorithm, as developed for cars, suitable for a front stage consisting of Left, Right (L,R) midrange/midbass drivers low in the kicks or doors, and the Center (C) midrange driver higher ... like up on the dash?

- Is it possible to summarize the special concerns, or differences between "standard" Logic 7 and the steering algorithms (maybe) specifically developed for the car environment?"


*Andy:*

"Hey Werewolf,
1. Logic7 steers the full range signal, but the subwoofer output is unprocessed. Does that make sense? If your front left, right and center don't use a high pass filter, the full signal will be steered to the left right and center by the algorithm. The algorithm steers the full signal to the sides and rears, but 150Hz-15kHz is the bandwidth necessary for your speakers to reproduce for the effect to work well. In fact, I recommend a steep high pass filter on the sides and rears at 150Hz. 

2. It works quite well for that kind of system. However, for a signal that's steered left or right, that image may be lower than a center steered image. I suggest at least mounting the tweeters for the front in the little panel that covers the mirror bolts. Kick panels aren't necessary with a center speaker, but I suppose they won't hurt.

3. Summary: Logic 7 for aftermarket cars attenuates center steered signals in right and left differently than L7 for "cinema". It's in-between Logic7 for music and L7 for movies. When a signal steers center, it's attenuated by 6dB in left and right. When the signal steers left OR right, it doesn't appear in the center at all. The delay for side and rear channels is also a little shorter than for rooms, and that delay is added to any delay that MS-8 adds to compensate for the speaker's location in the car. Bass management steers center bass (below the center channel's crossover frequency) to the right and left and steers bass below the front left and right high pass filter frequency to the sub."


*Werewolf:*
"Yes, that helps alot. But for clarification, I can imagine a situation where it's quite possible to fit, say, 6" drivers low & forward in the front doors, but perhaps only fit a 4" driver in the center. Tweets up high for all channels. For the sake of argument, let's say that the 6" drivers have no problem playing with decent authority down to 100Hz, but maybe that 4" center won't have much to give you below 200Hz. So you might have no choice but to high-pass the center at 200Hz. What are the consequences, in a nutshell?"

*Werewolf:*

"ahhh ... that's the question. If I high pass the center at something higher than 150Hz, for example ... is information that is steered to the center lost ... or does the high-pass setting on your center speaker actually influence the steering algorithm? Know what I mean?

It's a very important question in cars, I think, for as much as I'm an advocate for a center in a car, we gotta recognize that's it pretty damn hard to use the same size center as L,R front or rear channels. Too much dash junk in the way ..."


*Andy:*

"THe steering algorithm doesn't change if the center is high-passd at a higher frequency, but that center-steered low frequency information is sent to the left and right (as center information--basically mono). 

Look at it like this:

In your scenario, the doors get 100Hz and up. The Center gets 200Hz and up. The center-steered info below 200Hz would be sent to both doors. It isn't stereo information--it's center information so once it's sent to the doors, it would be mono. If the door speakers were time aligned, either by placement or elecronically, then that information would "appear" in the center in a 2-channel system. Center AND Left AND right information below 100Hz would be steered to the subwoofer. IF you had a right and left sub, then the stereo left and right signals would remain intact. If there's only one sub, then that bass information is mono, by default.

What all of that means is, that having the same size center as left and right is BEST, but we have tools in place to make the best of a less-than-best arrangement. 

In the end, Werewolf's system will work fine. Is it OPTIMUM? Almost. It's a common scenario. In my last car, I used L7 and a setup very similar. I had big 6" speakers in the doors and a pair of 3-1/2" speakers in the center. It sounded great. 6" speakers were 60hz and up and 3-1/2' speakers were 170Hz and up. I took a second place at IASCA the first year out. In my current car, there is no high-pass on the doors and a 100Hz HP on the center--sounds great."

________________________________________________________________


----------



## t3sn4f2

designerfh said:


> This whole center channel thing is making me rethink my whole system. With 8 outputs, I can do:
> 
> 1. Active three channel, 2 way front stage taking up six outputs, and a sub output for a total of 7.
> 2. Active two channel, 3 way front stage taking up six outputs, a center channel (rely on amp crossover?) taking up one output, and sub - for a total of 8.
> 3. *Active three channel, 3 way front, mids and highs from one channel each (use amp crossover), midbasses on one channel each,* for six channels. Sub on one, for a total of 7.
> 
> Are there any other options i am missing that still leverages everything the MS8 can do? I'd like to provide ms8 control to the drivers that need it most, but im not sure which ones those are.



*Me:*

"Hey Andy, In a 5.1 setup with biamped fronts (Front 1 L/R and Front 2 L/R setting on the MS8 I imagine) in a 3 way front stage (midbass in lower front doors, mid dome in kick panels, and tweeters in pillars) with no center. *Would you suggest mating midbass and mid dome with the DSP on my Zapco DC Reference Amps using the appropriate x-over, TA, and EQ to make them one coherent channel and then use the MS8 to intergrate that combined channel to the tweeter on top. Or would it be a better idea to mate the mid dome and tweeter with the Zapcos and then that with the MS8 to the midbass*.:


*Andy:*

"Mid and tweeter together and let MS-8 sort out the midbass---WAY better."


----------



## t3sn4f2

Center channel question:


*Me:*

"Hi Andy. If I dont have a center channel, can I use Logic7 mode with a no center setting and does it then do something special to the prcoessing so that its like a phantom center setup, or do I have to go with stereo mode in that case and loose the other benefits of Logic7. Also is the auto EQ only for Logic7 mode or is it availiable for stereo mode too?"


*Andy:*

"T3,
If you don't identify a channel as a center, Logic7 won't be completely engaged. There will be some ambience processing for the rear and the time alignment will be set for a single listening position. After setup, you can choose between optimizations for each of the 4 seats, but they won't all image simultaneously like they will if you use a center.

EQ is completely separate from L7. It works no matter the setup."


----------



## chad

lycan said:


> My mom used to tell me that i'd go blind. So i asked if i could just do it, until i needed glasses.


sig material.


----------



## designerfh

t3sn4f2 - thanks for pulling that all together, you certainly answered my questions. I've read the whole thread over the past few weeks but I probably glazed over and missed the important stuff. 

Time to start searching on center speakers! Wonder if a MTM set up similar to PB's single tweeter test on the dash work....?


----------



## trigg007

kkant said:


> Woah. Chill the **** down. No, you didn't offend me, and no I don't own a lex at the moment. I just want to know if it is possible to really make a car that quiet. I've done my share of sound deadening, and while it helps, I think it can only help so much--the design of the car seems to be the limiting factor. If you can really get a car much quieter than 60 db at 70 mph cruise, I'd like to know about it (so I can do it myself!)
> 
> So I'm not asking for a debate on this, I just want to see the figures.


I've riden in my fair share of rides...Lexus too. One of the quietest rides I’ve been in (on the hwy @ 70+mph) was a Ford SUV (can’t remember model) that was easily quieter than a stock Lexus, but obviously I have no scientific data. I just know I couldn’t hear any noise going down the HWY with the system off. There was several $$$$$ in deadening done to the vehicle.


----------



## perfektj

I think that some are missing the point of the MS-8. Like most car audio tuning products it is a tool. Is it the best tool for all situations? No. Anyone who has spent anytime talking to Scott knows that he exudes car audio knowledge and that is seen in everything that he does. Same goes for Mark, Gary and Chris. This product is made so that the other 99.9 percent of us who do not have the time or funds to do a complete custom install can enjoy a greater portion of what very few others have the privilege of hearing every day. The fact that the MS-8 can take an almost stock system and bring it to a level that can compete is incredible. Imagine what possibilities could be down the road with software updates. I for one am very happy that I will be able to (with minimum work) have a better sounding system in my daily driver. If the funds present themselves down the road I would love to do a custom install in one of my project cars, but with today's economy who knows. I do not think that the MS-8 takes anything away from those who are master tuners, what it does is add so much for those of us who are not.


----------



## DAT

perfektj said:


> I think that some are missing the point of the MS-8. Like most car audio tuning products it is a tool. Is it the best tool for all situations? No. Anyone who has spent anytime talking to Scott knows that he exudes car audio knowledge and that is seen in everything that he does. Same goes for Mark, Gary and Chris. This product is made so that the other 99.9 percent of us who do not have the time or funds to do a complete custom install can enjoy a greater portion of what very few others have the privilege of hearing every day. The fact that the MS-8 can take an almost stock system and bring it to a level that can compete is incredible. Imagine what possibilities could be down the road with software updates. I for one am very happy that I will be able to (with minimum work) have a better sounding system in my daily driver. If the funds present themselves down the road I would love to do a custom install in one of my project cars, but with today's economy who knows. I do not think that the MS-8 takes anything away from those who are master tuners, what it does is add so much for those of us who are not.




PERFECT... I want to know about the group buy also...


----------



## rcurley55

It seems to me that the huge value in this processor is the ability to steer information to the center channel. Is it going to be "worth it" to integrate this thing into a non-center channel car?


----------



## kkant

rcurley55 said:


> It seems to me that the huge value in this processor is the ability to steer information to the center channel. Is it going to be "worth it" to integrate this thing into a non-center channel car?


Yes. For the auto-eq. In my view, the most important feature.


----------



## BMWTUBED

Can someone clarify how the 31 band eq works. I remember reading that you adjust it to the curve you want (meaning the curve you would expect to see if you RTA'd the car) I don't have a problem understaning this, but no where in the manual does it tell us to recalibrate with the headphone mics after drawing the curve we want. How does the processor know it is outputting the correct curve if it doesn't check itself after the EQ change?
Make sense?

By the way, anyone have a link to the "perfect RTA curve"? You know the one that is boosted on the bottom end, rolls off to flat through the mid range and then rolls the high end off at ?? dbs per octave starting at ?? Hz...


----------



## AdamS

BMWTUBED said:


> Can someone clarify how the 31 band eq works. I remember reading that you adjust it to the curve you want (meaning the curve you would expect to see if you RTA'd the car) I don't have a problem understaning this, but no where in the manual does it tell us to recalibrate with the headphone mics after drawing the curve we want. How does the processor know it is outputting the correct curve if it doesn't check itself after the EQ change?
> Make sense?
> 
> By the way, anyone have a link to the "perfect RTA curve"? You know the one that is boosted on the bottom end, rolls off to flat through the mid range and then rolls the high end off at ?? dbs per octave starting at ?? Hz...


During the acoustic eq, the 31-band is shut off, so you don't need to recalibrate the headphone mic. The only 'control' that is still enabled during acoustic eq is master volume.

The 31-band is separate from the eq. They are on top of one another. After re-running eq (say you got new speakers), you'll want to listen with 31-band and 3-band (tone control) zero'd out before doing your fine tuning.


----------



## 14642

perfektj said:


> I think that some are missing the point of the MS-8. Like most car audio tuning products it is a tool. Is it the best tool for all situations? No. Anyone who has spent anytime talking to Scott knows that he exudes car audio knowledge and that is seen in everything that he does. Same goes for Mark, Gary and Chris. This product is made so that the other 99.9 percent of us who do not have the time or funds to do a complete custom install can enjoy a greater portion of what very few others have the privilege of hearing every day. The fact that the MS-8 can take an almost stock system and bring it to a level that can compete is incredible. Imagine what possibilities could be down the road with software updates. I for one am very happy that I will be able to (with minimum work) have a better sounding system in my daily driver. If the funds present themselves down the road I would love to do a custom install in one of my project cars, but with today's economy who knows. I do not think that the MS-8 takes anything away from those who are master tuners, what it does is add so much for those of us who are not.


The next time I'm in Hatch picking up a big load of green chiles, I'll drive to wherever you are and buy you a beer. Thanks for this post--best of the thread thus far.


----------



## kkant

BMWTUBED said:


> Can someone clarify how the 31 band eq works. I remember reading that you adjust it to the curve you want (meaning the curve you would expect to see if you RTA'd the car) I don't have a problem understaning this, but no where in the manual does it tell us to recalibrate with the headphone mics after drawing the curve we want. How does the processor know it is outputting the correct curve if it doesn't check itself after the EQ change?
> Make sense?


I'll take a stab at it. The calibration with the mics is the room correction. When that is done, the response will be corrected and targeted to flat. The EQ used for this correction is different from (and better than) the 31-band. After that you can use the 31-band to draw a curve to change the tone and balance. This doesn't affect the room correction, so no recalibration is needed.


----------



## 14642

kkant said:


> I'll take a stab at it. The calibration with the mics is the room correction. When that is done, the response will be corrected and targeted to flat. The EQ used for this correction is different from (and better than) the 31-band. After that you can use the 31-band to draw a curve to change the tone and balance. This doesn't affect the room correction, so no recalibration is needed.


Right. The target isn't flat, though. It's the target that I've posted more times than I can count on this forum.


----------



## pionkej

BMWTUBED said:


> Can someone clarify how the 31 band eq works. I remember reading that you adjust it to the curve you want (meaning the curve you would expect to see if you RTA'd the car) I don't have a problem understaning this, but no where in the manual does it tell us to recalibrate with the headphone mics after drawing the curve we want. How does the processor know it is outputting the correct curve if it doesn't check itself after the EQ change?
> Make sense?
> 
> By the way, anyone have a link to the "perfect RTA curve"? You know the one that is boosted on the bottom end, rolls off to flat through the mid range and then rolls the high end off at ?? dbs per octave starting at ?? Hz...



I think you are talking about the equal-loudness contour: Equal-loudness contour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When I read the information, I believe it is saying that if you follow that curve (it changes so you need to target one db point), you will hear the entire frequency spectrum as "flat". It has been debated if this is proper for setting up a system since the lower and upper end isn't boosted when you see a live concert AND that the album may already be produced with a curve meaning you have gone beyond the equal-loudness contour. I still plan to target that to begin with and tweak from there (I don't have MS-8 funds right now, so I have to tweak), but it's still something to think about.


----------



## CraigE

I believe this is the curve that Andy has posted "more times than he can count". LOL
It is my understanding that this curve is for separate left and right.
So (I think) with both left and right channels playing you would not see/hear that amount of sub bass. Well maybe if you have left/right subs.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## 14642

man, you guys are way out there.


----------



## ErinH

looks like Andy's referencing the equal loudness curve.

Which brings up something I've wondered as well. When the auto eq runs, is there a variation in volume that is accounted for in the final result? Does that make sense?


----------



## pionkej

bikinpunk said:


> looks like Andy's referencing the equal loudness curve.
> 
> Which brings up something I've wondered as well. When the auto eq runs, is there a variation in volume that is accounted for in the final result? Does that make sense?


Are you speaking of something like an auto-loudness feature (that actually works)? Turn the stereo to mid-volume, let it calibrate the system, then when you turn it down it boosts the curve and as you go up it flattens it?

If so, that would be awesome, but I don't think it does. For that to work, I think you would have to set the stereo at mid-volume, then tell the unit that mid-volume=XXdb on your system so it knows where it falls on the equal-loudness curve, then work from there. I just don't think it has that ability, again, if I am understanding you correctly.


----------



## Knobby Digital

The issue I have w/ dynamic EQ is the huge variance in volume of different tracks, albums, etc.


----------



## ErinH

pionkej said:


> Are you speaking of something like an auto-loudness feature (that actually works)? Turn the stereo to mid-volume, let it calibrate the system, then when you turn it down it boosts the curve and as you go up it flattens it?
> 
> If so, that would be awesome, but I don't think it does. For that to work, I think you would have to set the stereo at mid-volume, then tell the unit that mid-volume=XXdb on your system so it knows where it falls on the equal-loudness curve, then work from there. I just don't think it has that ability, again, if I am understanding you correctly.


yep, that's pretty much what I'm asking about.


----------



## Mic10is

So the manual and i believe Andy said donot connect anything to any of the other inputs. is it possible to have multiple settings for different inputs?
Say you have your main source on inputs 1/2
then a DVD player on 3/4?
Something else on 5/6.

is this possible?

When using the Aux input for say an Ipod, does this take up another preset as well? It seems from what i read that its a whole separate input and has to be calibrated as such.


----------



## 14642

No, that's not possible. There are basically 2 stereo inputs. The first is the sum of the inputs connected to inputs 1-8 after input setup and the auxiliary input. The auxiliary input isn't processed. We assume that whateveryou plug into it is flat--iPod, DVD player, Playstation, Walkman, whatever. 

If you want to use the head unit's loudness curve, then you can decide at what point on the volume control to correct. The window is pretty wide. If you calibrate at the lowest setting the MS-8 will allow, then there will be less head unit EQ at low volumes and the EQ will be inverted a bit above that point on the volume control. If you calibrate at a much higher level, where the head unit's EQ has less effect, then you'll have more of the head's EQ at lower volumes. We've done this in a few cars during setup and it works pretty well. Of course, to do this you have to use the factory volume control.


----------



## Mic10is

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, that's not possible. There are basically 2 stereo inputs. The first is the sum of the inputs connected to inputs 1-8 after input setup and the auxiliary input. The auxiliary input isn't processed. We assume that whateveryou plug into it is flat--iPod, DVD player, Playstation, Walkman, whatever.
> 
> If you want to use the head unit's loudness curve, then you can decide at what point on the volume control to correct. The window is pretty wide. If you calibrate at the lowest setting the MS-8 will allow, then there will be less head unit EQ at low volumes and the EQ will be inverted a bit above that point on the volume control. If you calibrate at a much higher level, where the head unit's EQ has less effect, then you'll have more of the head's EQ at lower volumes. We've done this in a few cars during setup and it works pretty well. Of course, to do this you have to use the factory volume control.



Ok I was just curious bc I'll be using my Denon DCT1( Finally!) and I could run Sirius through its Aux Input. Ipod through the Ms8 input. But I currently have a DVD player and was looking for a way to have the audio go through the MS8. I thought Maybe I could put the Denon on input 1/2 and the DVD player on inputs 3/4 and theyd have separate presets and configurations....
Follow?

separate question--when using the 1/3octave EQ in final tweaking is there a way to mute channels? or can it only be done through balance? say if you wanted to check left or right or even center alone


----------



## SStealth

Doesnt MS8 have a few presets you can call up. Set your volume at your normal listening level and calibrate, store this calibration at Preset1. Turn the system up to what you consider cranking it and calibrate again, store at preset2. You could do this for as many volume levels you listen at and when you turn it to that volume change your preset. Quick easy way to have the a great tune at different volume levels.
Personally I think I would only use 3 at max. Soft comfortable listening, competition level listening and cranking it listening.

Ant


----------



## AdamS

SStealth said:


> Doesnt MS8 have a few presets you can call up. Set your volume at your normal listening level and calibrate, store this calibration at Preset1. Turn the system up to what you consider cranking it and calibrate again, store at preset2. You could do this for as many volume levels you listen at and when you turn it to that volume change your preset. Quick easy way to have the a great tune at different volume levels.
> Personally I think I would only use 3 at max. Soft comfortable listening, competition level listening and cranking it listening.
> 
> Ant


There are 5 presets. 

Each one contains individual settings for: 3-band, 31-band, seat position, Logic7 On/Off, Processing On/Off, Balance, Fader, Sub, Center

Multiple calibrations are not part of the preset.


----------



## SStealth

So the calibration stays the same with every different preset. I thought it would be included in the processing option, so therefore could be different with every preset.


Ant


----------



## designerfh

SStealth said:


> So the calibration stays the same with every different preset. I thought it would be included in the processing option, so therefore could be different with every preset.
> 
> 
> Ant


The car hasnt changed, the speakers havent changed, why would you want to have different processing per preset? If the system is set up correctly, you shouldn't need multiple processing presets.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Mic10is said:


> *Ok I was just curious bc I'll be using my Denon DCT1( Finally!) and I could run Sirius through its Aux Input. Ipod through the Ms8 input. But I currently have a DVD player and was looking for a way to have the audio go through the MS8. I thought Maybe I could put the Denon on input 1/2 and the DVD player on inputs 3/4 and theyd have separate presets and configurations....
> Follow?*
> separate question--when using the 1/3octave EQ in final tweaking is there a way to mute channels? or can it only be done through balance? say if you wanted to check left or right or even center alone


Goldpoint Selector Switches

Plus a few precision resistors to attenuate the sources with a stronger output.

A little expensive but absolutely clean compared to a active source selector. You also won't have to go through the trouble of navigating a menu each time you want to switch sources.


----------



## Mic10is

t3sn4f2 said:


> Goldpoint Selector Switches
> 
> Plus a few precision resistors to attenuate the sources with a stronger output.
> 
> A little expensive but absolutely clean compared to a active source selector. You also won't have to go through the trouble of navigating a menu each time you want to switch sources.


thanks I may look into this


----------



## Lanson

designerfh said:


> The car hasnt changed, the speakers havent changed, why would you want to have different processing per preset? If the system is set up correctly, you shouldn't need multiple processing presets.


Windows Down
Windows Up
Sunroofs
Convertibles
Highway
SPL runs

I can think of a few reasons


----------



## michaelsil1

fourthmeal said:


> Windows Down
> Windows Up
> Sunroofs
> Convertibles
> Highway
> SPL runs
> 
> I can think of a few reasons


Temperature Changes!


----------



## designerfh

fourthmeal said:


> Windows Down
> Windows Up
> Sunroofs
> Convertibles
> Highway
> SPL runs
> 
> I can think of a few reasons


I know im a noob at this, but windows up and down? Seriously? You think maybe the 60 mph wind a few inches from your head might drown out any difference the MS8 would measure? Would you even be able to run the set up while driving with the windows down? Or with the top dropped? I'd think those little headphones would be struggling to measure anything in that kind of environment. 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but the only one of those that makes sense to me would be for SPL runs, and it appears that you can have a sub level per preset, which kinda covers that. The rest would be covered by liberal application of the volume knob.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Mic10is said:


> thanks I may look into this


Here's another company that makes a similar product.

Audio input selector switches


----------



## kkant

designerfh said:


> I know im a noob at this, but windows up and down? Seriously? You think maybe the 60 mph wind a few inches from your head might drown out any difference the MS8 would measure? Would you even be able to run the set up while driving with the windows down? Or with the top dropped? I'd think those little headphones would be struggling to measure anything in that kind of environment.
> 
> I'm not trying to be argumentative, but the only one of those that makes sense to me would be for SPL runs, and it appears that you can have a sub level per preset, which kinda covers that. The rest would be covered by liberal application of the volume knob.


I pretty much agree, though (aside from the Highway suggestion) I think the other configurations would require re-EQ'ing. But that's only if your sitting still. As soon as you move and the wind starts blowing, not much point to having a slightly different room correction.


----------



## 14642

fourthmeal said:


> Windows Down
> Windows Up
> Sunroofs
> Convertibles
> Highway
> SPL runs
> 
> I can think of a few reasons


All of those scenarios can be adequately compensated for using the 31-band EQ without new acoustic EQ. This unit doesn't do active noise cancellation, so building a preset for highway speeds will mean you have to put in some average kind of correction.


----------



## 14642

We're now taking preorders for MS-8 here:

Harman Audio

Choose the "create a back order" option to preorder. Back orders will be filled in the order in which we receive them and they'll begin to go out as soon as they arrive from the factory. Well...we will hold all of them for about 48 hours to do an incoming quality inspection--we do that with all products.

The website indicates availability in June. I think if you order now, you'll have it before June 1. 

Also, you guys may not know where I live, but you do know how to get ahold of me. I'll provide personal tech support for all of you here at the forum, but I can't do that for everyone everywhere. If and when you order, please send me a PM here, I'll put you on my list.


----------



## trevordj

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> We're now taking preorders for MS-8 here:
> 
> Harman Audio
> 
> Choose the "create a back order" option to preorder. Back orders will be filled in the order in which we receive them and they'll begin to go out as soon as they arrive from the factory. Well...we will hold all of them for about 48 hours to do an incoming quality inspection--we do that with all products.
> 
> The website indicates availability in June. I think if you order now, you'll have it before June 1.
> 
> Also, you guys may not know where I live, but you do know how to get ahold of me. I'll provide personal tech support for all of you here at the forum, but I can't do that for everyone everywhere. If and when you order, please send me a PM here, I'll put you on my list.


Hell yes!

I just placed my order. 

Andy, YGPM


----------



## M&MBlue

Order Placed...


----------



## ItalynStylion

What happened to the group buy?


----------



## BMWTUBED

CraigE said:


> I believe this is the curve that Andy has posted "more times than he can count". LOL
> It is my understanding that this curve is for separate left and right.
> So (I think) with both left and right channels playing you would not see/hear that amount of sub bass. Well maybe if you have left/right subs.
> Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> View attachment 17026


Yep, that's the curve I would draw...


----------



## rcurley55

ItalynStylion said:


> What happened to the group buy?


^^ what he said


----------



## SStealth

For that price, do you really need a group buy. If I was in the states I would have pre ordered already. Thats an outstanding deal for what your getting in my opinion. Great job Andy and Harman

Ant


----------



## BMWTUBED

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Right. The target isn't flat, though. It's the target that I've posted more times than I can count on this forum.


Andy, Andy, Andy,
You will sell more MS-8s with a drop of honey than with a gallon of vinegar.
You're a professional at a global, publicly traded company - I am your customer. I am truly sorry you have had to post more times than you can count. Regards


----------



## DS-21

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> All of those scenarios can be adequately compensated for using the 31-band EQ without new acoustic EQ.


Just curious, for the Harman systems in high-end convertibles (Lexus SC430 and the like) were the EQ curves based on one set of measurements, or different measurements based on top position, etc?


----------



## rommelrommel

If any fellow Canadians are in a hurry to get one I have a US address and live/work minutes from the border. I'd be willing to pick it up and send it on for actual expenses.


----------



## 14642

BMWTUBED said:


> Andy, Andy, Andy,
> You will sell more MS-8s with a drop of honey than with a gallon of vinegar.
> You're a professional at a global, publicly traded company - I am your customer. I am truly sorry you have had to post more times than you can count. Regards


No vinegar intended. Sorry about that. Maybe I'll save a picture of the target on my desktop for easy pasting...


----------



## perfektj

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The next time I'm in Hatch picking up a big load of green chiles, I'll drive to wherever you are and buy you a beer. Thanks for this post--best of the thread thus far.


Thanks DAT. No worries Andy, keep the faith! If this thing sounds as good as you say, most of the 'negative waves' surrounding the MS-8 will disappear. Unfortunately no one can make everyone happy.

That green chile is wicked addictive.

John


----------



## 14642

Yes, I know. I grew up in El Paso. I miss roasting chiles in my backyard...


----------



## xlynoz

BMWTUBED said:


> Andy, Andy, Andy,
> You will sell more MS-8s with a drop of honey than with a gallon of vinegar.
> You're a professional at a global, publicly traded company - I am your customer. I am truly sorry you have had to post more times than you can count. Regards


Now that's just wrong. Andy has provided a wealth of information about this product. Sounds like you need the special attention of a Walmart Audio specialist. Try them I'll bet they'll give you everything you need and more.


----------



## Horsemanwill

ItalynStylion said:


> What happened to the group buy?





rcurley55 said:


> ^^ what he said


no one actually said there was gonna be a group buy.... everyone just said they wanted in on it if there was one lol


----------



## timelord9

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Stay tuned on the group buy...




As per SStealth, can the overseas members participate in the pre-order? If there's no dedicated DIYMA group buy, which is no problem, could someone PM me about purchasing one and sending it over?


cheers guys, and A MASSIVE THUMBS UP TO ANDY FOR THE LONG HAUL! 81 pages you've been answering our drivel. 'Nuf to make a man crazy I would have thought, so thanks


----------



## rommelrommel

FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Website won't accept my credit card. Guessing because it's a Canadian based... I have a US address on it but JBL website no likely. 

Oh, and it times out FAST.


----------



## t3sn4f2

t3sn4f2 said:


> My money is on 3 months before you can buy one.


Posted right before the end of February.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The website indicates availability in June. I think if you order now, you'll have it before June 1.


I dunno Andy, but I think that deserves a free MS-8.


----------



## CobraVin

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The website indicates availability in June. I think if you order now, you'll have it before June 1.


Andy, do you expect there to be a shortage or an over retail price once they start shipping? I'm going to order one but if you don't expect either I'll wait the 2 months since i noticed they bill your CC at the time of order, and i haven't installed my gear in my new truck yet anyway.

Also I need the super secret DIYMA special coupon code, can you send that to me as well


----------



## jimbno1

I gather from earlier posts this has been used in competition already. Has anyone used it with HLCDs?


----------



## trigg007

jimbno1 said:


> I gather from earlier posts this has been used in competition already. Has anyone used it with HLCDs?


x1000...thinking about not cutting dash!!


----------



## 14642

blownrunner said:


> Reading over the manual, it reads that the signal going out is 8ms behind the signal coming in. I wonder if this is great enough to notice when an actors mouth on the screen doesn't "sync up" with the audio. I wouldn't think that 8ms would be even noticeable, but according to the manual is it.


That depends. I don't know if that will be noticeable, but there may be additional delay if the signals you connect to the input are also delayed (factory time alignment). The other input channels are delayed to match. No other way to do it--causality is a law, not a just a good idea.


----------



## BMWTUBED

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No vinegar intended. Sorry about that. Maybe I'll save a picture of the target on my desktop for easy pasting...


No problem. We're all just trying to learn and make well informed purchases. I do commend the time you taken to answer questions.


----------



## saab93

Just (pre)ordered mine. I have been lurking this thread for years waiting to take care of the nightmare that is my 2003 Saab. Happy day. Now I just have to figure out somewhere to do the work since I moved away from my car audio gear.

Andy - thanks for getting this product to market and for keeping this forum current.


----------



## blownrunner

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> That depends. I don't know if that will be noticeable, but there may be additional delay if the signals you connect to the input are also delayed (factory time alignment). The other input channels are delayed to match. No other way to do it--causality is a law, not a just a good idea.


You replied before I could delete my question, which I believe was pretty stupid and petty. However, here is a more realistic one: Is the 2.8 volt input limit engineering or marketing voltage? I liked using a line driver in the past and want to continue using one like the AudioControl Matrix. If I use a 0db 1000hz tone and set the line driver output to just under, and the input it into, the 2.8 volt input limit on the MS-8, would this work?
Another processor I still want to use also is the Epicenter, which requires a full range signal to work. Some of the older music I listen to lacks any bass at all and the Epicenter works nicely. I kind of use it as a sub amp remote gain control. I set the subwoofer gain to blend with modern recordings and then add a little Epicenter 'bass restoration' when I play older Pink Floyd or Rush.

Both of these processors are 'old school' and I wonder about their compatibility with your new processor. The MS-8 will definitely be used, but my older gear doesn't if there will be a compatibility problem.

At any rate, congratulations on reaching the manufacturing stage, and I look forward to finally getting my hands on one!


----------



## Sex Cells

DS-21 said:


> Just curious, for the Harman systems in high-end convertibles (Lexus SC430 and the like) were the EQ curves based on one set of measurements, or different measurements based on top position, etc?


I'm curious about this as well.


----------



## thehatedguy

No, not yet.



jimbno1 said:


> Has anyone used it with HLCDs?


----------



## NvTwist

Andy, Thank you for going above and beyond and answering our many questions. Down the road Ill order myself an MS-8.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> That depends. I don't know if that will be noticeable, but there may be additional delay if the signals you connect to the input are also delayed (factory time alignment). The other input channels are delayed to match. No other way to do it--causality is a law, not a just a good idea.


I hate dimensional _g_itter. 

8ms is 9 feet of audio delay versus the virtually instantaneous perception of light. If it mattered, wouldn't the people in the back of a movie theater have a really bad movie experience compared to those in the middle?


----------



## 14642

blownrunner said:


> You replied before I could delete my question, which I believe was pretty stupid and petty. However, here is a more realistic one: Is the 2.8 volt input limit engineering or marketing voltage? I liked using a line driver in the past and want to continue using one like the AudioControl Matrix. If I use a 0db 1000hz tone and set the line driver output to just under, and the input it into, the 2.8 volt input limit on the MS-8, would this work?
> Another processor I still want to use also is the Epicenter, which requires a full range signal to work. Some of the older music I listen to lacks any bass at all and the Epicenter works nicely. I kind of use it as a sub amp remote gain control. I set the subwoofer gain to blend with modern recordings and then add a little Epicenter 'bass restoration' when I play older Pink Floyd or Rush.
> 
> Both of these processors are 'old school' and I wonder about their compatibility with your new processor. The MS-8 will definitely be used, but my older gear doesn't if there will be a compatibility problem.
> 
> At any rate, congratulations on reaching the manufacturing stage, and I look forward to finally getting my hands on one!


I'll have to look up the epicenter on Audio Control.com. It's been 15 years since I used or installed one of those, and while I know HOW it works, I can't remember what inputs and outputs are required. 

Regarding the line driver: It really isn't a necessary piece of gear, but if you have to use it, you can set it for less than 3V or you can set it for lots of volts and use the speaker level inputs. If you use only speaker level inputs 1 and 2, you can still choose to skip input setup in the menu and that will bypass the signal summing and signal DEQ (that's what we call the Un-EQ).


----------



## 14642

Sex Cells said:


> I'm curious about this as well.


I don't know. The amps in those cars are tuned manually, so it's entirely possible that there are two measurements. If I were tuning those cars, I'd make a measurement with the car closed and then modify that tuning for a setting for having the top open. The change will be primarily below 300Hz, so I think it's probably just a matter of adjusting the bass a bit. It'll be the same for MS-8. Make a measurement with the car closed, save it as a favorite. Then retune with the 31-band EQ with the top open. Save that as a favorite. The position of the speakers doesn't change, so no new time alignment is required.


----------



## BodegaBay

ItalynStylion said:


> What happened to the group buy?


I don't think that's an option with Harmon direct. A company large as Harmon can't really sell it below MSRP and undercut their dealer network. A GB would make more sense from a distributor or dealer. I've never seen any group buys from large companies like Alpine, Kenwood, or Pioneer and and don't expect to with Harmon.





CobraVin said:


> ...I'll wait the 2 months since i noticed they bill your CC at the time of order...


Not sure if it'll help with your time line but the Harmon Audio Store has a 30 day Customer Satisfaction Guarantee: no questions, no re-stock. Purchase it now, get your system setup in by June, have 30 days to try it out.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Regarding the line driver: It really isn't a necessary piece of gear, but if you have to use it, you can set it for less than 3V or you can set it for lots of volts and use the speaker level inputs. If you use only speaker level inputs 1 and 2, you can still choose to skip input setup in the menu and that will bypass the signal summing and signal DEQ (that's what we call the Un-EQ).


That's before the MS-8. But I wouldn't see a problem using a line driver AFTER the MS-8; would there? I'd really like to bump that 2.8V Line Output coming out of the MS-8 to my amp (which doesn't take line-level inputs).


----------



## kkant

BodegaBay said:


> That's before the MS-8. But I wouldn't see a problem using a line driver AFTER the MS-8; would there? I'd really like to bump that 2.8V Line Output coming out of the MS-8 to my amp (which doesn't take line-level inputs).


How about using the speaker-level outputs of the MS8? Balanced and hi-voltage, ready to go.


----------



## CobraVin

BodegaBay said:


> I don't think that's an option with Harmon direct. A company large as Harmon can't really sell it below MSRP and undercut their dealer network. A GB would make more sense from a distributor or dealer. I've never seen any group buys from large companies like Alpine, Kenwood, or Pioneer and and don't expect to with Harmon.
> 
> *It was Andy himself that stated "stay tuned for a group buy" or something similar, i realize that things change and I'm sure he tried to make it happen, but thats the reason people are commenting on that matter.*
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if it'll help with your time line but the Harmon Audio Store has a 30 day Customer Satisfaction Guarantee: no questions, no re-stock. Purchase it now, get your system setup in by June, have 30 days to try it out.
> 
> *Thanks for that info but my issue isn't whether I think ill like it or not it was having my CC charged and paying interest on it for two months before it even ships for no reason,..... thats why i asked Andy if he expected it to be sold for more than the retail price or if he expects a back order status, cause then it would make sense for me to order it now*


.....


----------



## ItalynStylion

BodegaBay said:


> I don't think that's an option with Harmon direct. A company large as Harmon can't really sell it below MSRP and undercut their dealer network. A GB would make more sense from a distributor or dealer. I've never seen any group buys from large companies like Al


That's exactly what I mentioned a few pages back. I only asked because Andy himself had mentioned it.


----------



## DS-21

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I don't know. The amps in those cars are tuned manually, so it's entirely possible that there are two measurements. If I were tuning those cars, I'd make a measurement with the car closed and then modify that tuning for a setting for having the top open. The change will be primarily below 300Hz, so I think it's probably just a matter of adjusting the bass a bit. It'll be the same for MS-8. Make a measurement with the car closed, save it as a favorite. Then retune with the 31-band EQ with the top open. Save that as a favorite. The position of the speakers doesn't change, so no new time alignment is required.


Interesting, thanks. That makes sense.

The MS8 is a bit too much for the Miata, alas (can't use so many of its cool features, because no room for center or side/rear speakers) but if there's ever a model under it with the auto-tune and favorites but no Logic7 and fewer - let's say 5  - channels, that might be an upgrade over the Alpine PXE-H650 (Audyssey MultEQ XT) processor currently in use...


----------



## Technic

ItalynStylion said:


> That's exactly what I mentioned a few pages back. *I only asked because Andy himself had mentioned it.*


... and I guess that by Andy himself directing everybody to a corporate site means that there will not be any Group Buy. 

It could have been a great business and marketing deal if a 30+ forum members buy this processor in one shot and finally started posting real life experiences and results after more of two years of basically rumours and wishful thinking. I think that Harman would be selling many more MS-8 after such a buy. 

I think that it is *us* in this particular thread that have not learned anything about the difference of _saying_ something and that something really _happening_ one day. 

Of course, this not not against Andy. If he has the same type of bosses that I have then I can see clearly how saying something in good faith and _logical _can be shut down by the powers that be...


----------



## trevordj

Technic said:


> ... and I guess that by Andy himself directing everybody to a corporate site means that there will not be any Group Buy.
> 
> It could have been a great business and marketing deal if a 30+ forum members buy this processor in one shot and finally started posting real life experiences and results after more of two years of basically rumours and wishful thinking. I think that Harman would be selling many more MS-8 after such a buy.
> 
> I think that it is *us* in this particular thread that have not learned anything about the difference of _saying_ something and that something really _happening_ one day.
> 
> Of course, this not not against Andy. If he has the same type of bosses that I have then I can see clearly how saying something in good faith and _logical _can be shut down by the powers that be...


I am confident that if a group buy comes to be through Harman, Andy will honor that for those that pre-order. He has been nothing but forthcoming thus far so I am not worried to get my pre-order in and hope it will work out.


----------



## rain27

Technic said:


> ... and I guess that by Andy himself directing everybody to a corporate site means that there will not be any Group Buy.
> 
> It could have been a great business and marketing deal if a 30+ forum members buy this processor in one shot and finally started posting real life experiences and results after more of two years of basically rumours and wishful thinking. I think that Harman would be selling many more MS-8 after such a buy.
> 
> I think that it is *us* in this particular thread that have not learned anything about the difference of _saying_ something and that something really _happening_ one day.
> 
> Of course, this not not against Andy. If he has the same type of bosses that I have then I can see clearly how saying something in good faith and _logical _can be shut down by the powers that be...


Even if there was a group buy, I don't think it would be much cheaper than retail price anyway. And it really shouldn't be. The demand for this item is very high, so a discount is unneccessary. Besides, $800 for something like this is really as cheap as one could expect. The BitOne is $100 more.


----------



## AdamS

DS-21 said:


> Interesting, thanks. That makes sense.
> 
> The MS8 is a bit too much for the Miata, alas (can't use so many of its cool features, because no room for center or side/rear speakers) but if there's ever a model under it with the auto-tune and favorites but no Logic7 and fewer - let's say 5  - channels, that might be an upgrade over the Alpine PXE-H650 (Audyssey MultEQ XT) processor currently in use...


Logic7 has been optimized in this product for all speaker configurations supported by MS8. You do not need a Center, Surround, or Back speakers to get improved imaging.

I'm running it without a Center (stock) but with Surrounds. I'll be adding in the Center as soon as I get the grill from Lexus.


----------



## 14642

Guys, I apologize for my lack of understanding about the term "Group Buy". The misunderstanding is my fault. What I've done (and no small feat) was to make preorders available, ensure that you guys get your units before anyone else in the universe and that you'd have a direct line to me for questions and answers. 

I didn't realize (because I'm an idiot and a forum newbie) that a group buy was supposed to be a special group rate. Had I known that, I would have chosen a different term. 

Please accept my apology for the misunderstanding.


----------



## trevordj

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Guys, I apologize for my lack of understanding about the term "Group Buy". The misunderstanding is my fault. What I've done (and no small feat) was to make preorders available, ensure that you guys get your units before anyone else in the universe and that you'd have a direct line to me for questions and answers.
> 
> I didn't realize (because I'm an idiot and a forum newbie) that a group buy was supposed to be a special group rate. Had I known that, I would have chosen a different term.
> 
> Please accept my apology for the misunderstanding.


Still a great price for what will no doubt be a ground breaking product. I am excited to get my unit and appreciate you setting this up for us. 

Thank you


----------



## CraigE

Andy,
Any update on this ?

"They're amps and they're about 7.5" x 7.5" x 2.5" ".


----------



## MaXaZoR

X2... but it will be a couple months before I buy one just to make sure all the kinks are out and I hear many hopefully 'outstanding' reviews.


----------



## kkant

trevordj said:


> Still a great price for what will no doubt be a ground breaking product. I am excited to get my unit and appreciate you setting this up for us.


I agree.


----------



## Gary Mac

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Guys, I apologize for my lack of understanding about the term "Group Buy". The misunderstanding is my fault. What I've done (and no small feat) was to make preorders available, ensure that you guys get your units before anyone else in the universe and that you'd have a direct line to me for questions and answers.
> 
> I didn't realize (because I'm an idiot and a forum newbie) that a group buy was supposed to be a special group rate. Had I known that, I would have chosen a different term.
> 
> Please accept my apology for the misunderstanding.


No worries, just wanted to get it clarified before I pulled the trigger...


----------



## fish

Andy, just to be clear, is the pre-order price going to differ from the normal set price once they're in stock?


----------



## Sex Cells

fish said:


> Andy, just to be clear, is the pre-order price going to differ from the normal set price once they're in stock?


I'm not Andy, but thats the retail.


----------



## 14642

fish said:


> Andy, just to be clear, is the pre-order price going to differ from the normal set price once they're in stock?


No. It'll be the same.


----------



## CobraVin

*Andy*, i realize you cant predict the future, but since you know the production schedule and how many in the first shipment, do you think(best guess) that supply wont meet demand when its first released, thanks


----------



## timelord9

Andy nO worries at all and thanks for the clarification. 

To other US members, is anyone keen to help an OS enthusiast get their hands on one? Pm me if you are. Cheers!


----------



## 14642

CobraVin,

That depends on how good our salesmen are. Of course, the first shipment will include units for the people here who order them--those get filled first. Then, the sales reps will get some so they can make presentations to retailers. Then, we'll ship retail orders. If retailers get on board, we could run out until the next shipment. 

As much as I'd hate for anyone to have to wait an additional 30 days to get one, I'd love for us to sell out the first production. Of course, MS-8s sold to retailers would be available for sale to consumers, but we don't currently have enough Authorized JBL retailers to make them easy to find. Hopefully these new products will help that situation. If you live near a JBL retailer and they order them, you'll be able to find one.


----------



## CraigE

CraigE said:


> Andy,
> Any update on this ?
> 
> "They're amps and they're about 7.5" x 7.5" x 2.5" ".



Got some of the info on Page 14 of the MS-8 Manual.
MS-A1001, 4x100w
MS-A5001, 1x500w
Nice


----------



## Se7en

Well count me in on the pre-order.


----------



## ChicoOG

Hi Andy,

How do we get on the list of DIY'ers to receive a unit in the first shipment? Looking forward to getting my hands on one of these!!

Thanks,
Mike


----------



## 14642

ChicoOG said:


> Hi Andy,
> 
> How do we get on the list of DIY'ers to receive a unit in the first shipment? Looking forward to getting my hands on one of these!!
> 
> Thanks,
> Mike


Go here: Harman Audio

And order one. Be sure to select the "create a back order" option. Yours will ship as soon as they come in (just like the other DIYers').


----------



## ErinH

Andy, I'm willing to bet you might want to quote yourself and add it to your sig. I have a feeling you're going to be asked the same question about 10 more times at least. 

Just sayin'.


----------



## trigg007

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Go here: Harman Audio
> 
> And *order one*. Be sure to select the "create a back order" option. Yours will ship as soon as they come in (just like the other DIYers').


are we limited to one? new ride + one for the wifey...

AND, where's the promo code? Hook a fellow Texan UP Dude


----------



## Sex Cells

trigg007 said:


> are we limited to one? new ride + one for the wifey...
> 
> AND, where's the promo code? Hook a fellow Texan UP Dude


He is hooking you up, _dude_.


----------



## trigg007

Sex Cells said:


> He is hooking you up, _dude_.


aaaaand you have a sense of humor


----------



## blownrunner

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'll have to look up the epicenter on Audio Control.com. It's been 15 years since I used or installed one of those, and while I know HOW it works, I can't remember what inputs and outputs are required.
> 
> Regarding the line driver: It really isn't a necessary piece of gear, but if you have to use it, you can set it for less than 3V or you can set it for lots of volts and use the speaker level inputs. If you use only speaker level inputs 1 and 2, you can still choose to skip input setup in the menu and that will bypass the signal summing and signal DEQ (that's what we call the Un-EQ).


The Epicenter just uses RCA ins and outs. It needs a full range signal so it guesses, using all the frequencies, the bass that is missing at what frequencies and adds it. Say I am listening to Pink Floyd and there is no music below 50hz. The Epicenter will add music below 50hz to flatten out the frequencies. Using the MS-8, all the tone controls on the head unit are supposed to be flat, according to the manual. As far as compatibility, if it is ok to add bass from the head unit, then it should be ok to use the Epicenter as it too only really adds bass. I assume then that in fact it would not be ok to use it then as the MS-8 is doing some active processing during those 8ms which would interfere with that.

It is really interesting when you say that a line driver really isn't needed... I always thought that a high preamp signal was desirable as it drowns out all the junk that travels with the music signal along the RCA's. While I can see that it is not needed, I always thought that is was desirable.

At any rate, thank you for all the little pieces of advice and all the tech support. You are like a modern day Richard Clark. You not only know a lot about the MS-8 but also audio in general.

By the way, what does MS-8 stand for?


----------



## t3sn4f2

blownrunner said:


> The Epicenter just uses RCA ins and outs. It needs a full range signal so it guesses, using all the frequencies, the bass that is missing at what frequencies and adds it. Say I am listening to Pink Floyd and there is no music below 50hz. The Epicenter will add music below 50hz to flatten out the frequencies. Using the MS-8, all the tone controls on the head unit are supposed to be flat, according to the manual. As far as compatibility, if it is ok to add bass from the head unit, then it should be ok to use the Epicenter as it too only really adds bass. I assume then that in fact it would not be ok to use it then as the MS-8 is doing some active processing during those 8ms which would interfere with that.
> 
> It is really interesting when you say that a line driver really isn't needed... I always thought that a high preamp signal was desirable as it drowns out all the junk that travels with the music signal along the RCA's. *While I can see that it is not needed, I always thought that is was desirable.*
> 
> At any rate, thank you for all the little pieces of advice and all the tech support. You are like a modern day Richard Clark. You not only know a lot about the MS-8 but also audio in general.
> 
> By the way, what does MS-8 stand for?


Something not needed _should_ not be desired. 

1. The line driver is not going to quiet down the noise from the source. It will simply zoom in the signal and the noise.

2. Picked up noise, where it would help, should not be an issue in a properly installed system.

3. Higher voltage for an amp is only needed to lower the gains to a point that their noise floor becomes inaudible. If it is already inaudible before hand, all you are doing then is amplifying to pad down. Plus picking up a little line driver noise for your troubles. 

Only time you would need a line driver is when you can for whatever reason resolve problems 2 and 3.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy, you guys should include a silicon rubber band that goes overs the MS-8's power strip. I had an old Pioneer amp with that style of connectors that came with something like that.


----------



## 62Lincoln

Andy, how compatible is the MS-8 with BMW's Enhanced Premium Audio system - this is the upgrade system for the M3?


----------



## 14642

Well...that's a good question. That one uses a DIRAC autotune, which is a fairly long FIR filter for each output channel. In my opinion, it's kinda like taking a Sikorsky SkyCrane to the grocery store. I've never heard it, but considering the amount of processing in there, there's no excuse for it not to sound great already. What improvements are you hoping for?

If you'll help me out a little bit and tell me how much power the marketing materials say the 9-channel amplifier provides and tell me the year of your car, I'll look up the connections in the chassis wiring book and see what can be done. 

There is one potential problem with using the output of the factory amplifier--the FIR filter equalizes phase and frequency response. Logic7 in MS-8 relies on flat phase to steer front and rear. Depending on what the FIR filters actually do for each channel, it could cause some strange steering. 

Send me the info (power and year of the car) and let's see if the DIRAC amp is MOST or how the head unit hooks up to it. I think some of my DSP buddies at work have some documentation too. I'll check with them.


----------



## Gary Mac

Andy,

I have the option to use a weak line level signal by splicing RCA's pre-factory amp (.5V-ish) on an Acura TLS, or using the high level outs after the factory amp. My gut feeling is to use the low level based off other's experiences with this car, but I wanted to make sure that amount of voltage would be ok for the MS-8.

What do you think?


----------



## 14642

Gary Mac said:


> Andy,
> 
> I have the option to use a weak line level signal by splicing RCA's pre-factory amp (.5V-ish) on an Acura TLS, or using the high level outs after the factory amp. My gut feeling is to use the low level based off other's experiences with this car, but I wanted to make sure that amount of voltage would be ok for the MS-8.
> 
> What do you think?


We've used a 250mV Pioneer head unit with MS-8 and it worked OK. IS the .5V signal fixed level in that car? I should know that, sorry.


----------



## Gary Mac

I have no idea.... Sorry. I do know others have had good results feeding the line level into aftermarket amps directly, as well as the RF 360's. Its and 08TLS


----------



## Technic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well...that's a good question. That one uses a DIRAC autotune, which is a fairly long FIR filter for each output channel. In my opinion, it's kinda like taking a Sikorsky SkyCrane to the grocery store. I've never heard it, but considering the amount of processing in there, there's no excuse for it not to sound great already. What improvements are you hoping for?
> 
> If you'll help me out a little bit and tell me how much power the marketing materials say the 9-channel amplifier provides and tell me the year of your car, I'll look up the connections in the chassis wiring book and see what can be done.
> 
> There is one potential problem with using the output of the factory amplifier--the FIR filter equalizes phase and frequency response. Logic7 in MS-8 relies on flat phase to steer front and rear. Depending on what the FIR filters actually do for each channel, it could cause some strange steering.
> 
> Send me the info (power and year of the car) and let's see if the DIRAC amp is MOST or how the head unit hooks up to it. I think some of my DSP buddies at work have some documentation too. I'll check with them.


That's the OEM amp that I was talking about with the 150W/32V max woofer outputs. It is MOST with a total of 825W max output in 9-channels, i.e., the same OEM Logic7 amp configuration but with almost double the power and different processing. 

IMO, it sounds and works better -even with the OEM speakers- with aftermarket processors if the OEM amp is removed from the equation, be by a MOST preamp converter or by recoding the iDrive unit to output balanced analog.


----------



## duckymcse

Where can we get the MS-8 Manual?



CraigE said:


> Got some of the info on Page 14 of the MS-8 Manual.
> MS-A1001, 4x100w
> MS-A5001, 1x500w
> Nice


----------



## fish

duckymcse said:


> Where can we get the MS-8 Manual?


MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service


----------



## Technic

cajunner said:


> wow. You've got to be really hard-core to gut a Logic 7 system with over 800 watts of power and vehicle specific tuning, to install something "better" but this goes back to the idea I had ruminating earlier on; and that is whether or not Logic 7 is suited to higher SPL environments, or if overloading the ears, is just riding that threshold of distortion that sounds "pleasing" and for some of us that distortion is really what we're chasing, at the limit.


You are getting confused with those power/channel outputs "specs" -system is not Logic7, it is DIRAC- and assuming that it must sound fantastic, but it does not. This $2000 OEM system is nothing to brag about, it sounds muffled and lifeless at low volume, very defined but bassless at high volume. It is simply not that great of an OEM system for that price. It may satisfy those that do not want to be involved with aftermarket systems but even those sooner or later will notice that the bass is not there at any volume. Fortunately, all that crappiness is located at the OEM amp, as the OEM 4" components and coaxials speakers are really high end aftermarket quality.

Remove that OEM amp, get a trunk sub or just replace the underseat OEM 8" woofers with SWS-8 and you have an excellent sound system overnight.


----------



## Technic

I like the _idea_ of a tuned audio system for the specifics of the vehicle interior characteristics and driver/speakers positioning, what I don't like is the _imposition_ of that tuned system as a cure for all individual audio qualities and tastes. 

Although some OEM systems give you EQ bands on top of the standard bass and treble adjustments, those EQ bands in reality change too little of that master EQ curve. So it is in fact a _take it or leave it_ approach in OEM systems. 

I like the approach of the MS-8 as it autotunes _and_ let the driver/owner change that autotune enough to satisfy individual tastes with more than enough adjustments.


----------



## 14642

Here's my take on the car tuning thing:

An algorithm can only be successful in meeting its objective if the person describing or implementing the process knows what he's doing and can communicate the process properly to the person writing the algorithm. I know how to tune cars and Ulrich and Adam know audio and math. That's why MS-8 works. 

The performance of these kinds of things has far less to do with the components (DSPs, D/As, speakers, filter types and amplifiers) than it does with the target curve and the method by which the machine arrives at the target. I'm sure that MS-8's autotune won't make everyone happy, but as Technic says, having some additional tuning tools will help to satisfy the tweakers.


----------



## ErinH

Question about levels (and it may not matter). Does the ms-8 take the additive method, or the subtractive method when shaping the cruve and matching levels?
IOW, does it ever boost at eq bands, or only cut?
Does it subtract from initial gain point, or will it add?

I could see this playing into how one might set up their gain stage (though it’s really a fine detail that likely wouldn’t make a difference unless the ms-8 adds quite a bit to the levels/eq bands).


----------



## kkant

CraigE said:


> Got some of the info on Page 14 of the MS-8 Manual.
> MS-A1001, 4x100w
> MS-A5001, 1x500w
> Nice


I couldn't see the power ratings on that page. Is that a guess on your part, or am I missing something?

Wish the power output was higher.


----------



## 14642

kkant said:


> I couldn't see the power ratings on that page. Is that a guess on your part, or am I missing something?
> 
> Wish the power output was higher.


The specs for the 4-channel amp is 100 x 4 @ 4 ohms, 175 x 4 @ 2 ohms and 350 x 2 bridged into 4 ohms. 

Most samples do about 120 x 4 @ 4, 190 x 4 @ 2 and about 380 x 2 bridged into 4. 

I'll post the specs for the 500 x 1 as soon as I have a sample that's been thoroughly tested.


----------



## kkant

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The specs for the 4-channel amp is 100 x 4 @ 4 ohms, 175 x 4 @ 2 ohms and 350 x 2 bridged into 4 ohms.
> 
> Most samples do about 120 x 4 @ 4, 190 x 4 @ 2 and about 380 x 2 bridged into 4.
> 
> I'll post the specs for the 500 x 1 as soon as I have a sample that's been thoroughly tested.


Thanks for the info. That's a good amount of power bridged. Still a little less power than I had hoped for non-bridged, but I guess it's easy enough to get an extra amp and bridge a few channels where needed.

Definitely worth it to get those built-in digitally configured pre-amps, which as I've said before is a *long* overdue feature for digital full-range car amps.

Actually, maybe I should confirm that--the 4-ch amp is full-range class D, correct?


----------



## 14642

Yup. Full-range Class D.


----------



## lycan

just a little "aside", for what it's worth ...

I doubt you'll _ever_ find an OEM system with "great", or even "adequate" bass performance. The reason is not cost, at least not directly. It's driver safety.

If you're driving down the highway, and the sub amp or signal processor "fails" in a fashion that drives that subwoofer to full volume, it can seriously distract you, and it can therefore kill you.

The _last_ thing car manufacturers want, is yet _another_ lethal weapon in their products.


----------



## Se7en

Andy,

I have a question regarding the time allignment functionality of the MS8.

I have been a Tact Audio user for about 11 years now and this system also features automatic room equalization and time alignment correction. One of the realities/negatives about the Tact correction system is that it is not "self aware" of it's own processing time (which increases/decreases based on frequency and XO slope selection) and does "not" make appropriate adjustments to it's TA corrections. This means that often out of the box adjustments can be mis-alligned.

A number of Tact users have published useful charts to help users perform manual TA adjustments to the auto allignment based on XO frequency and slope between the subs and mains (in a home system).

I was wondering how the MS8 deals with this especially given the number of channels supported.

Thanks!


----------



## lycan

Se7en said:


> Andy,
> 
> I have a question regarding the time allignment functionality of the MS8.
> 
> I have been a Tact Audio user for about 11 years now and this system also features automatic room equalization and time alignment correction. One of the realities/negatives about the Tact correction system is that it is not "self aware" of it's own processing time (which increases/decreases based on frequency and XO slope selection) and does "not" make appropriate adjustments to it's TA corrections. This means that often out of the box adjustments can be mis-alligned.
> 
> A number of Tact users have published useful charts to help users perform manual TA adjustments to the auto allignment based on XO frequency and slope between the subs and mains (in a home system).
> 
> I was wondering how the MS8 deals with this especially given the number of channels supported.
> 
> Thanks!


that's a _great_ question, in my view, often overlooked (i would guess). Different filter alignments, and different filter slopes, will have different "group delays" within their passbands. Any time-alignment of _drivers_, must also ultimately comprehend the time-delay of the _filters_ that control them, to be accurate.

You can do impulse response testing of drivers with filters _off_, to get an accurate read of the drivers themselves (they're filters too!) and their distance from the listener. But somewhere, the group delays of the low/high/band pass filters must _also_ be accounted for.

EDIT: i would imagine that it's pretty easy, for even a semi-intelligent processor. I can imagine that impulse response _measurements_ could be made with all filters off, and once filters are engaged, the processor can add a known/stored "correction" that's a simple function of the filter order & frequency (which the processor "knows", because that correction is independent of the environment).


----------



## CraigE

kkant said:


> I couldn't see the power ratings on that page. Is that a guess on your part, or am I missing something?
> 
> Wish the power output was higher.


The power ratings are not on that page, or elsewhere in the manual that I could see.
It's kind of funny. I was reading the MS-8 Manual, that I downloaded, and looking at the different ways to configure it. I thought those amps look vaguely familiar. After zooming in about eight times, I saw JBL and the model numbers. Then used the search button to get some info on the power and price.
They are an ideal size for someone not willing to sacrifice trunk or cargo space and the power is good. I'm thinking of a three way front stage, for example, using one 4 ch amp for left; with 2chs bridged to the midbass, 1 ch for midrange, and 1 ch for tweeter. Same on the right. If you want center and/or rears just add another amp. 
This is flexibility. 
Andy.. Should we start a JBL MS- Amp Thread ?


----------



## Technic

lycan said:


> just a little "aside", for what it's worth ...
> 
> I doubt you'll _ever_ find an OEM system with "great", or even "adequate" bass performance. The reason is not cost, at least not directly. *It's driver safety.*
> 
> If you're driving down the highway, and the sub amp or signal processor "fails" in a fashion that drives that subwoofer to full volume, it can seriously distract you, and it can therefore kill you.
> 
> The _last_ thing car manufacturers want, is yet _another_ lethal weapon in their products.


I'm not sure that I agree with that generalization completely, although it has its merits.

My 2010 VW CC stock system have a very surprising amount of bass coming from its _door-mounted _OEM 7" front and 6" rear woofers and that's being driven by the OEM Nav system, no separate OEM amp. 

Incidentally, that VW OEM Nav system uses a slightly different version of the same IC amp in the MS-8.

By the same token and related to your conclusion, VW had a TSB issued around 2007 for a random "bass blast" of the OEM HU/Nav due to a software bug in their speed-dependent volume code.


----------



## 14642

Se7en said:


> Andy,
> 
> I have a question regarding the time allignment functionality of the MS8.
> 
> I have been a Tact Audio user for about 11 years now and this system also features automatic room equalization and time alignment correction. One of the realities/negatives about the Tact correction system is that it is not "self aware" of it's own processing time (which increases/decreases based on frequency and XO slope selection) and does "not" make appropriate adjustments to it's TA corrections. This means that often out of the box adjustments can be mis-alligned.
> 
> A number of Tact users have published useful charts to help users perform manual TA adjustments to the auto allignment based on XO frequency and slope between the subs and mains (in a home system).
> 
> I was wondering how the MS8 deals with this especially given the number of channels supported.
> 
> Thanks!


Great question and a big problem if you sit far from the subs and speakers. In a car, we sit very close. Delay based on distance in a car is a very few degrees of phase at most sub/midbass crossover points (unless the box is in the back of a Ford Excursion and you're 4.5 feet tall). Using a really steep slope (4th order is sufficient) will minimize the interaction of the sub and midbass enough to make a good transition in the car possible. Since we're not using FIR filters, the computation time is relatively short for EQ and doesn't vary from one channel to the next regardless of how complex the filter is. We have compensated for the difference in processing time for the sub and the other channels. 

The real difficulty in the processor is in the bass management section, where steered low frequencies are added to other channels below the crossover frequency of the channel to which that bass was originally steered. Thanks to Ulrich and Adam, we have an ingenious arrangement of additional variable all-pass filters that match the phase of the steered bass to the unsteered bass.

While that's not the answer, precisely, to your question, it is an cool part of the MS-8.


----------



## 14642

Oh, one additional thing that should be mentioned. In any peak-picking algorithm designed to acoustically locate speakers or align signals, the amount of high-frequency in the content affects the algorithm's ability to locate the speaker, especially if a stndard impulse response measurement will be used. In MS-8, this applies to D-EQ and Auto-EQ. Once again, Adam and Ulrich have figured out a cure for that too.

The one problematic configuration is a 2-way speaker using a passive crossover where the tweeter is much closer to the listener than the mid. My tip for that scenario is to cover the tweeters during the first of the 4 sets of sweeps for each seating position. That will cause the MS-8 to align based on the output of the midrange, which is important because we use ITDs to localize sounds below 1kHz, and then the EQ will take care of the ILD at high frequencies. Works like a charm.


----------



## kkant

Good stuff


----------



## Se7en

This is a great answer. Thank you!



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Great question and a big problem if you sit far from the subs and speakers. In a car, we sit very close. Delay based on distance in a car is a very few degrees of phase at most sub/midbass crossover points (unless the box is in the back of a Ford Excursion and you're 4.5 feet tall). Using a really steep slope (4th order is sufficient) will minimize the interaction of the sub and midbass enough to make a good transition in the car possible. Since we're not using FIR filters, the computation time is relatively short for EQ and doesn't vary from one channel to the next regardless of how complex the filter is. We have compensated for the difference in processing time for the sub and the other channels.
> 
> The real difficulty in the processor is in the bass management section, where steered low frequencies are added to other channels below the crossover frequency of the channel to which that bass was originally steered. Thanks to Ulrich and Adam, we have an ingenious arrangement of additional variable all-pass filters that match the phase of the steered bass to the unsteered bass.
> 
> While that's not the answer, precisely, to your question, it is an cool part of the MS-8.


----------



## rain27

Andy,

In all of the testing you did with the MS-8 in several different setups, did you find any noticeable difference in sound quality between stock or average after market head units vs. "high end sq" head units (i.e. DRZ9255, etc.)?


----------



## 14642

We haven't done any listening tests in the same car, same system with two differnt head units. From a technical perspective, I don't think it matters much, so long as the dynamic EQ from the OE system (if such a thing exists) in the car provides acceptable improvements.


----------



## Mic10is

bikinpunk said:


> Question about levels (and it may not matter). Does the ms-8 take the additive method, or the subtractive method when shaping the cruve and matching levels?
> IOW, does it ever boost at eq bands, or only cut?
> Does it subtract from initial gain point, or will it add?
> 
> I could see this playing into how one might set up their gain stage (though it’s really a fine detail that likely wouldn’t make a difference unless the ms-8 adds quite a bit to the levels/eq bands).


I had basically a similar question. How does it adjust levels? Say you were using external amps of 150rms or more but then used the MS8 amp for rears and center. Will the MS8 adjust the level of the other down to match the MS8 amp or try and adjust the signal up on the others?

can each channel level be adjusted after the initial set up?


----------



## AdamS

Mic10is said:


> I had basically a similar question. How does it adjust levels? Say you were using external amps of 150rms or more but then used the MS8 amp for rears and center. Will the MS8 adjust the level of the other down to match the MS8 amp or try and adjust the signal up on the others?
> 
> can each channel level be adjusted after the initial set up?


Levels get adjusted to match the loudest speaker.

Andy can comment on the rest.


----------



## 14642

MS-8 matches all the channels and tries to maintain plenty of room to avoid digital clipping. If you use MS-8's amp for the center, it'll adjust right and left to match it. same for rears. I suggest using similar power for center right and left. If you use the MS-8's amps for the rear, sent the gains on your amps down a bit, run setup and then adjust the amp gains up by precisely the same amount until you get a balance between front and rear that you like. Same goes for the sub. If the sub "level control" in MS-8 doesn't provide enough bass for you, adjust the amp gain up after you run setup.


----------



## t3sn4f2

t3sn4f2 said:


> Andy, during the setup, can we turn our head less in each direction in order to have smaller sweet spot with the benefit of increasing the forward looking sound? Or even more, not turn our head at all, so to get the most focused alignment?


Bump

And another crazy thought. Hypothetically speaking (), would calibration be more _accurate_ if we were to mod the mic headphones to be able to place the mics in the inner ear? Think mic plugs.


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> Bump
> 
> And another crazy thought. Hypothetically speaking (), would calibration be more _accurate_ if we were to mod the mic headphones to be able to place the mics in the inner ear? Think mic plugs.


 
Hey, apparently i need some of what you're smoking. 

The spatial average helps to smooth the high frequency measurement, which is always inaccurate with a single mic placement. If you mod the mics for an inner-ear implementation, you'd need a new mic correction filter and honestly, I don't think it'll matter much. The difference would probably be a little more high-frequency content allowed from the rear speakers.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hey, apparently i need some of what you're smoking.
> 
> The spatial average helps to smooth the high frequency measurement, which is always inaccurate with a single mic placement. If you mod the mics for an inner-ear implementation, you'd need a new mic correction filter and honestly, I don't think it'll matter much. The difference would probably be a little more high-frequency content allowed from the rear speakers.


Ah ok, good deal. No need to breaks notin.


----------



## ErinH

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hey, apparently i need some of what you're smoking.
> 
> The spatial average helps to smooth the high frequency measurement, which is always inaccurate with a single mic placement. If you mod the mics for an inner-ear implementation, you'd need a new mic correction filter and honestly, I don't think it'll matter much. The difference would probably be a little more high-frequency content allowed from the rear speakers.



oooh, you just gave me something to try. I've got two ECM8000's. I may try taping them end to end so that one mic end is toward the left, and the other is toward the right, do a sweep, average the results and see what I get compared to a single mic measurement. 

coolness.


----------



## 14642

In order to average the measurements correctly, you have to eliminate the phase response of the measurement and average only the magnitude. That's easy or hard depending on your analyzer.


----------



## Horsemanwill

hey andy i'm sure winslow probably already nominated himself but if you want a horn car to try it on i'll gladly use my vehicle for it


----------



## ErinH

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> In order to average the measurements correctly, you have to eliminate the phase response of the measurement and average only the magnitude. That's easy or hard depending on your analyzer.


hmmm. Okay. I don't really know where to begin, lol.
I use trueRTA. I know holmImpulse shows phase and FR separately. Do you know anything about this? I can carry to PM if you'd rather not get into it here.


----------



## Mic10is

Horsemanwill said:


> hey andy i'm sure winslow probably already nominated himself but if you want a horn car to try it on i'll gladly use my vehicle for it


im probably closer to done than both of you, so Id be the better candidate!!


----------



## Horsemanwill

hey my system is in and runnin i just need to do the cosmetics. and besides i have an rta do u?


----------



## Mic10is

Horsemanwill said:


> hey my system is in and runnin i just need to do the cosmetics. and besides i have an rta do u?


i'm surprised you can spell RTA, but I know you dont know how to use one...besides MS8 will greatly reduce the need for one!!


----------



## Horsemanwill

lol


----------



## iD Z24

lol finished cars.


----------



## Gary Mac

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8 matches all the channels and tries to maintain plenty of room to avoid digital clipping. If you use MS-8's amp for the center, it'll adjust right and left to match it. same for rears. I suggest using similar power for center right and left. If you use the MS-8's amps for the rear, sent the gains on your amps down a bit, run setup and then adjust the amp gains up by precisely the same amount until you get a balance between front and rear that you like. Same goes for the sub. If the sub "level control" in MS-8 doesn't provide enough bass for you, adjust the amp gain up after you run setup.


So would we set gains before or after ms8 set up


----------



## SSQ

Andy,
Can you comment on the need for center and rears if the system design goal is for driver only (not 2-seat or 4-seat)? I would think that the center isn't needed since its primary reason seems to be to provide a center for both seats at the same time. I would also think that there would be improved dynamics by not relying on a smaller mid - which is likely the case for most center channels. 
It seems to me that the rears will still serve a purpose though for adding depth. Am I on the right track? Is there a theoretical optimal set-up for a 1 seat wonder?

-Kris


----------



## 14642

SSQ said:


> Andy,
> Can you comment on the need for center and rears if the system design goal is for driver only (not 2-seat or 4-seat)? I would think that the center isn't needed since its primary reason seems to be to provide a center for both seats at the same time. I would also think that there would be improved dynamics by not relying on a smaller mid - which is likely the case for most center channels.
> It seems to me that the rears will still serve a purpose though for adding depth. Am I on the right track? Is there a theoretical optimal set-up for a 1 seat wonder?
> 
> -Kris


Right on all counts. Congratulations.


----------



## godfathr

Hey there Andy...What's up brother!
I sent you an email a while back. I have a distribution question for you as well. Is the MS8 going to be available through distributor channels or direct only? Also, what is the ETA? My rep couldn't answer either question for me today. Call me at the shop when you get a chance!

Cheers!
Vince


----------



## Mic10is

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8 matches all the channels and tries to maintain plenty of room to avoid digital clipping. If you use MS-8's amp for the center, it'll adjust right and left to match it. same for rears. I suggest using similar power for center right and left. If you use the MS-8's amps for the rear, sent the gains on your amps down a bit, run setup and then adjust the amp gains up by precisely the same amount until you get a balance between front and rear that you like. Same goes for the sub. If the sub "level control" in MS-8 doesn't provide enough bass for you, adjust the amp gain up after you run setup.


thanks for the answer

everything I had read previously about implementing a center channel in a car lead me to believe that the level of the center should be 10-20db lower than the main speakers as to not detract from the Left/Right which were providing the majority of the information.

also, same for rears. if they were the same level they would draw the stage rearward or closer to the listener and ruin any illusion of depth.


----------



## lycan

Mic10is said:


> thanks for the answer
> 
> everything I had read previously about implementing a center channel in a car lead me to believe that the level of the center should be 10-20db lower than the main speakers as to not detract from the Left/Right which were providing the majority of the information.
> 
> also, same for rears. if they were the same level they would draw the stage rearward or closer to the listener and ruin any illusion of depth.


two types of centers :

1. Leave left & right alone, and _add_ a center (usually simple L+R mix). Usually you want _this_ type of center attenuated, relative to left & right.

2. A center where information is "removed" from left & right, and "steered" to a center. In this case, center level should be about equal to left & right level.


----------



## Mic10is

lycan said:


> two types of centers :
> 
> 1. Leave left & right alone, and _add_ a center (usually simple L+R mix). Usually you want _this_ type of center attenuated, relative to left & right.
> 
> 2. A center where information is "removed" from left & right, and "steered" to a center. In this case, center level should be about equal to left & right level.



shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....you're gonna have to make me buy another amp and find somewhere to put it!!!


----------



## ErinH

^ buy a highly sensitive driver and use the ms-8's amp.


----------



## 14642

Lycan is right. 

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that a mono (L+R) center does more to screw up a good image than to enhance it, unless there's some additional trickery involved in the processing, like crosstalk cancellation, but that isn't available in car audio products.

For 2-channel listening, a matrix processor (PLII or L7) is the ticket, although getting used to listening to music the way it was recorded takes a little while. We're so used to listening to different pathlengths that many of us like the sense of space that those phase anomalies provide. 

I did a demo for a well know record producer several months ago of a car with a strong phantom center image and his response was "it sounds mono". the demo was of a track he mixed. We then went upstaris and I showed him exactly how much distinct left and right were actually in the track and he scratched his head.


----------



## mp3weenie

Hi Andy,

I recall you mentioning that you mix multi-channel recordings through an external L7 processor and you put the output on your ipod with great results through the MS-8. I am interested in doing the same (using with DPL-II until MS-8 is in hand). Could I accomplish this with a L7 home theater receiver? For example DVD->L7 Receiver->L7 stereo output? What would you recommend?

Thanks. Jay


----------



## SSSnake

I've been listening to PLII at home and it is very unnerving at first. After a while you realize that many, not all, of the images are MUCH more realistic. Can't wait to try it in the car. Unfortunately I am using a PC to get there...


----------



## Se7en

Andy,

Is the MS8 capable of storing two "setup" configurations in different presets?

What I mean is can I do a single seat (non-centered) setup on one preset and then a different 2 seat utilizing a center channel for 2 seat listening?

Thanks!


----------



## t3sn4f2

Se7en said:


> Andy,
> 
> Is the MS8 capable of storing two "setup" configurations in different presets?
> 
> What I mean is can I do a single seat (non-centered) setup on one preset and then a different 2 seat utilizing a center channel for 2 seat listening?
> 
> Thanks!


Nope.

Look for Adam's post here (or the manual) to see what can be changed after the only calibration setup is done. No toggling cal. runs.


----------



## mp3weenie

SSSnake said:


> I've been listening to PLII at home and it is very unnerving at first. After a while you realize that many, not all, of the images are MUCH more realistic. Can't wait to try it in the car. Unfortunately I am using a PC to get there...


I run DVD-A/DTS/DD 5.1/DPL-II in my car currently. I am getting fed up with lugging around a bunch of discs that get scratched etc. that also cost $$$ so putting my favorite selections on my ipod while keeping the original surround mix is very appealing (I am not sure why I have not done this yet as my deck has DPL-II already).

I do not know how to do the mix down on a PC even if just using DPL-II. If you have a method for this please let me know. It would be nice to keep it all in the digital domain like you suggest.

Thanks!

PS Andy is there much difference in the MS-8 processing of DPL-II mix verses L7? If there is not much difference I may just go the DPL-II route.


----------



## t3sn4f2

.......


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

Wow you guys are killing me, just when I thought I had everything I need for my system.

Great info. 

So Andy the MS-8 does number #2 on Lycan Center list correct where is remove info from left and right and steers it to the center?

So the center is very important for a 2 seat build when using the MS-8?

My question is (hope is doesn't make me look stupid ) what is done for the rears, as i'm with Mic, everything I have I know or knew about rear or surrounds is the level should be quite a bit lower. Also how important is the rears for a 2 seat car when using the MS-8.


----------



## perfektj

SSSnake said:


> I've been listening to PLII at home and it is very unnerving at first. After a while you realize that many, not all, of the images are MUCH more realistic. Can't wait to try it in the car. Unfortunately I am using a PC to get there...


My thoughts exactly. Now if I listen with PLII off it sounds like something is missing. I hope that the MS-8 can bring that feeling to my car system.


----------



## AdamS

t3sn4f2 said:


> Nope.
> 
> Look for Adam's post here (or the manual) to see what can be changed after the only calibration setup is done. No toggling cal. runs.


You could do:

Favorite #1: Seat = Driver, Logic7 = Off, Fade to the Front 
Favorite #2: Seat = Front, Logic7 = On, Neutral Fade


----------



## t3sn4f2

AdamS said:


> You could do:
> 
> Favorite #1: Seat = Driver, Logic7 = Off, Fade to the Front
> Favorite #2: Seat = Front, Logic7 = On, Neutral Fade


Just to be clear, Logic7 off with center active turns off the center output?

And if we have no rears/sides and have Logic7 on. Does the fade position matter?


----------



## AdamS

t3sn4f2 said:


> Just to be clear, Logic7 off with center active turns off the center output?
> 
> And if we have no rears/sides and have Logic7 on. Does the fade position matter?


Yes. Logic7 Off is just Multichannel Stereo. Left is broadcast to Left Surround and Left Back, Right is broadcast to Right Surround and Right Back. Center disappears.

Even more general, if you have no rears/sides, if you fade to the front it has no effect. If you fade to the rear, it will attenuate all fronts.


----------



## billymonter

Hey Andy;
Could you explain how the MS-8's center channel is different than Audiocontrol's ESP-3 center channel processor? That's what I'm currently running so I would be very interested in a non technical response.

Thanks


----------



## wdemetrius1

Forgive me, but when can we expect this?


----------



## timelord9

June-ish.


----------



## lycan

billymonter said:


> Hey Andy;
> Could you explain how the MS-8's center channel is different than Audiocontrol's ESP-3 center channel processor? That's what I'm currently running so I would be very interested in a non technical response.
> 
> Thanks


Andy or Adam ... if you want to pursue an answer, i'll point you to the patent that describes the Audio Control ESP-3 in considerable detail


----------



## ItalynStylion

I just wanted to add what my thoughts are on how this processor will change the game for me. 

I think this processor is going to really get the most out of the other hardware (drivers) that are in your system. I've always been hessitant to change things once I get them to a point where I think they're pretty good. With this unit I'll likely be experimenting quite a bit with new drivers and different configurations. I'm excited for the new doors this will open up.


----------



## thehatedguy

The problem is you don't have any horns.



Mic10is said:


> im probably closer to done than both of you, so Id be the better candidate!!


----------



## 14642

lycan said:


> Andy or Adam ... if you want to pursue an answer, i'll point you to the patent that describes the Audio Control ESP-3 in considerable detail


Please point. Thanks Hairy Friend.


----------



## lycan

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Please point. Thanks Hairy Friend.


Okee dokee 

I think it probably _will_ be valuable to the car audio community to compare what the MS-8 offers for the center, compared to what other processors have offered in the past.

Here's the patent that describes the Audio Control ESP-3 :

US Patent number 5,113,447
Issue date : May 12, 1992
*Method and System for Optimizing Audio Imaging in an Automotive Listening Environment*
Inventors : Brian J. Hatley, Richard A. Chinn
Assignee : Electronic Engineering and Manufacturing, Inc.

(you'll note that neither "Audio Control", nor "center channel" appear anywhere above. yeah ... this took some digging) The patent can be downloaded for free from "google patents" 

Ultra-quick summary : the ESP-3 is pure analog, and uses a pretty simple "summation" for center. HOWEVER ... as indicated in the first figure of the patent, they _also_ attempt some "subtraction" of center info from left & right. It's pretty crude "steering", by more modern (Logic7, ProLogicII, Neo:6) standards. Then, they also offer some frequency-shaped L-R "enhancement" to the main stereo pairs for stage widening ... the stuff we discussed in the "midbass arrays revisited" thread 

EDIT : a little elaboration  When you form a simple center (i've called it "dumb", in contrast to more sophisticated steering algorithms) by L+R, you will invariably "narrow" the stage  because pure "L" now comes from the left driver _and_ the center, for example. Subtracting some of this simple L+R signal (that you send to the center) from L and R, is designed to mitigate the problem of "too much center", but it won't help this stage-narrowing  What _can_ help "restore" the stage width is mixing in a little (frequency-shaped) L-R  That's what the ESP-3 does. It works because now pure L comes _a little_ from the left driver, _a little_ from the center driver, and _a little inverse_ (or -L) from the right driver  That's what we discussed in the "midbass arrays revisited" thread, for apparent stage-widening. Yeah, it's kind-of a bandaid on a crude solution to begin with ... but honestly, it's not half-bad for 1992


----------



## thehatedguy

Andy, you may have mentioned this to me before, but how important is timbre matching the rear speakers to the front? Do the rears have to be the same quality of speakers as the fronts? And finally do the rears need to be the same size as the fronts?


----------



## Mic10is

thehatedguy said:


> The problem is you don't have any horns.


um Ive had them for awhile now thank you!!


----------



## Horsemanwill

ya but my horns and everything is already in and ready  you guys are still installing.


----------



## Onyx1136

Andy, we've gotten tons of info on what the MS-8 can do with the autotune, but what happens if it "hears" something it doesn't expect, or doesn't understand? For instance, if one were to replace another existing processor with an MS-8, but they didn't realize that maybe they had a blown speaker somewhere in their instal. What is the MS-8 going to do during autotune if say a rear speaker wasn't functioning? Is it intelligent enough to know that something is wrong, or is it just going to do the best it can with whatever it detects?is there any chance it will go into some sort of safe mode & tell you it thinks something is wrong? I'm not expecting it to troubleshoot problems or anything, just curious to know if it's smart enough to figure out that something strange is happening that it might not be able to compensate for, & maybe alert the user to check things out. 

& thanx for all the hard work you do for us Andy.


----------



## BMWTUBED

Onyx1136 said:


> Andy, we've gotten tons of info on what the MS-8 can do with the autotune, but what happens if it "hears" something it doesn't expect, or doesn't understand? For instance, if one were to replace another existing processor with an MS-8, but they didn't realize that maybe they had a blown speaker somewhere in their instal. What is the MS-8 going to do during autotune if say a rear speaker wasn't functioning? Is it intelligent enough to know that something is wrong, or is it just going to do the best it can with whatever it detects?is there any chance it will go into some sort of safe mode & tell you it thinks something is wrong? I'm not expecting it to troubleshoot problems or anything, just curious to know if it's smart enough to figure out that something strange is happening that it might not be able to compensate for, & maybe alert the user to check things out.
> 
> & thanx for all the hard work you do for us Andy.


I was wonding something along the same lines? What if, for some reason, the MS-8 isn't able to hit the target curve with the drivers it has to work with? Will it tell you it didn't hit the curve? 
I ran into something similar with Audysee and my home system. One of my rear tweeters was not working and Audysee wouldn't send output to that speaker. It may have shut down the entire autotune - can't remeber for certain.


----------



## 14642

Yes, actually, there's a secret display mode that will flash, "Your system sucks so badly that even MS-8 can't fix it." Then, a secret camera will appear on the top of the display, take your picture and upload it automatically to the Team JBL Facebook page, where we'll all make fun of you.

If you're missing an input channel or MS-8 can't calibrate on the input setup, it'll help you get things under control and there are some error messages, but for the most part, it'll do the best job it can. 

I'm not sure what MS-8 will do with a missing output channel. I think if it doesn't hear anything, it'll set the correction filter to unity and do nothing on that channel, but maybe Adam can clarify. It can't detect a buzzing or bad speaker. The algorithm is a set of rules that won't allow MS-8 to do anything really stupid, so if your system doesn't sound good because there are big holes in the response, you'll still have holes in the response. 

Ms-8 is like a rock polisher, not an alchemist.


----------



## 14642

thehatedguy said:


> Andy, you may have mentioned this to me before, but how important is timbre matching the rear speakers to the front? Do the rears have to be the same quality of speakers as the fronts? And finally do the rears need to be the same size as the fronts?


The rear isn't critical, but it's really helpful to have something back there. The level that the rears will play with Logic7 will depend entirely on the amount of out-of-phase information in the recording. -180 degrees between left and right steers rear. It's great at steering room ambience in direct to 2-track recordings. Most pop recordings mixed using simple panning won't produce much rear information. Spacey sounding stuff, live recordings and anything you play back as a 2-channel downmix from a discreet multichannel recording may have lots of rear information. If you plan to do much of that, pay at least some attention to getting a decent pair of speakers back there and mount the tweeters at ear level.

The rear speakers should always have a high pass filter to keep them from playing anything below 100Hz. I usually use a 100Hz 4th order filter. So long as the rears can play between 100Hz and about 15kHz, MS-8 will correct the response well enough.


----------



## 14642

cajunner said:


> this thing is complicated, more than I thought. I just read something by Toole about space and the final frontier, haha, and it appears that this device utilizes three different topologies to achieve a listening environment that objectively, differs when fed different program source materials.
> 
> Is Logic7 just a way to add discrete rear information in the AC-3 format? I think I'm getting more and more confused by the binaural mic thing, and how that impacts the two-channel listening, if this thing is derived from an multi-channel algorithm... and where the vertical matters? Is this thing able to do the phantom speaker thing, and that's why it's possible to lift kickpanel locations to the windshield? Or, is that just wishful thinking...
> 
> it would be pretty cool if it were possible to toggle between a Dolby Surround setting, and that of the new technology, as an A/B exercise when using Dolby encoded content just so people would be able to hear the differences between what was previously available and what this thing is able to accomplish.


The binaural mic has nothing to do with multichannel playback. The spatial average during auto EQ is simply so the unit will EQ based on what you hear as you move your head, rather than on a single mic placement. It improves the quality of the equalization at upper frequencies.

L7 processes 360 degrees in the lateral plane, but not in the vertical plane. Search for lycan's posts on vertical localization or look for a lengthy thread called "flat response". I think I explained this in that one too.


----------



## 14642

billymonter said:


> Hey Andy;
> Could you explain how the MS-8's center channel is different than Audiocontrol's ESP-3 center channel processor? That's what I'm currently running so I would be very interested in a non technical response.
> 
> Thanks


 
I'll try to elaborate on Lycan's ESP3 post tomorrow. If I sit in this chair any longer today, I'm going to die.


----------



## billymonter

Lycan thanks for the response this exactly what I was hoping to learn.
BM



lycan said:


> Okee dokee
> 
> I think it probably _will_ be valuable to the car audio community to compare what the MS-8 offers for the center, compared to what other processors have offered in the past.
> 
> Here's the patent that describes the Audio Control ESP-3 :
> 
> US Patent number 5,113,447
> Issue date : May 12, 1992
> *Method and System for Optimizing Audio Imaging in an Automotive Listening Environment*
> Inventors : Brian J. Hatley, Richard A. Chinn
> Assignee : Electronic Engineering and Manufacturing, Inc.
> 
> (you'll note that neither "Audio Control", nor "center channel" appear anywhere above. yeah ... this took some digging) The patent can be downloaded for free from "google patents"
> 
> Ultra-quick summary : the ESP-3 is pure analog, and uses a pretty simple "summation" for center. HOWEVER ... as indicated in the first figure of the patent, they _also_ attempt some "subtraction" of center info from left & right. It's pretty crude "steering", by more modern (Logic7, ProLogicII, Neo:6) standards. Then, they also offer some frequency-shaped L-R "enhancement" to the main stereo pairs for stage widening ... the stuff we discussed in the "midbass arrays revisited" thread
> 
> EDIT : a little elaboration  When you form a simple center (i've called it "dumb", in contrast to more sophisticated steering algorithms) by L+R, you will invariably "narrow" the stage  because pure "L" now comes from the left driver _and_ the center, for example. Subtracting some of this simple L+R signal (that you send to the center) from L and R, is designed to mitigate the problem of "too much center", but it won't help this stage-narrowing  What _can_ help "restore" the stage width is mixing in a little (frequency-shaped) L-R  That's what the ESP-3 does. It works because now pure L comes _a little_ from the left driver, _a little_ from the center driver, and _a little inverse_ (or -L) from the right driver  That's what we discussed in the "midbass arrays revisited" thread, for apparent stage-widening. Yeah, it's kind-of a bandaid on a crude solution to begin with ... but honestly, it's not half-bad for 1992


----------



## lycan

billymonter said:


> Lycan thanks for the response this exactly what I was hoping to learn.
> BM


no problemo dude, but wait for Andy's response too 

Like I said, the good old analog ESP-3 was pretty interesting in its day:

1. Center formed by *L+R* (L plus R), probably some bandlimiting too.
2. At least "some" of the newly formed center _subtracted_ from left and right, to avoid "too much center".
3. To help restore the inevitable collapse in stage width, "some" amount of *L-R* (L minus R) mixed into left and right ("midbass arrays revisited" thread explains this step in excruciating detail).

Certainly nowhere near as sophisticated as Logic7, PLII or Neo:6  But that's where Andy comes in


----------



## 14642

OK, now that my butt has recovered from 15 hours in the same chair yesterday, here goes.

Every few milliseconds, Logic 7 computes a steering angle by determining a couple of things about the stereo signal. Left, right and center steering is determined by level differences between left and right signals. Mono information--the information that's common to left and right--is steered to the center. Don't confuse mono as L+R for what's actually going on here. Although this isn't how it's done, you could think of the mono info as (L+R)-lL-Rl. It's all of the sound minus the sound that appears only in the left or the right. That mono information is also attenuated in the left and the right. The amount of that information that appears in left and right is an important part of making this thing sound great in cars. If the information is completely removed from left and right, then I don't think it works very well in cars. The images are spot on, but they're really small and don't sound believable, to me. If the mono information isn't attenuated at all, then the stage is narrowed a bit and the images are big and kind of nebulous. Left of center and right of center aren't very accurate. Attenuating the mono signal in left and right by 6dB works great and that's what MS-8's L7 does. 

The front-to-rear steering angle is computed by determining the phase relationship between left and right. -180 degrees steers to the rear. -90 degrees steers about halfway between front and rear. The level differences between left and right determine rear left and right steering. 

Finally, when information is steered front, one of the rear and side channels is polarity-swapped. This helps to anchor front steered sounds in the front, and that's why sides and rears shouldn't make a bunch of midbass. That out-of-phase condition in the back works for imaging, but not for midbass. Fortunately, we all want the midbass to sound like it comes from the front, so it's just easier to make sure that it does. 

Side and rear are also delayed by several milliseconds, but rear is delayed more. 

Very low frequencies are not steered. They're simple stereo.

Here's a set of drawings that sort of illustrates this. The first one illustrates what you can expect from a L+R center.










And here's a simplification of what happens with L7:









So, when you implement this in a car, here are some pointers:

1. Sides and rears don't have to make bass. I use a 3" and a tweeter in the back and a 6" component system in the sides, but they're crossed over at 100Hz, 4th order. The 6" speakers in the sides are overkill, but that's what fit in the doors. 

2. It's helpful if the side and rear tweeters are at about ear level. Don't mount them in the bottom of the doors. 

3. If you won't put 4 speakers in the back and you'll use only 2 instead, MS-8 will process them as sides. That's no problem and the difference between 5.1 and 7.1 is really hard to hear. It's nice to have rears and sides if you'll have rear seat passengers. Logic 7 in OE systems mixes some front-steered information into the sides, so the rear seat passengers have their own stage at the back of the front seats. Making those adjustments is car and speaker-location dependent and it's seriously difficult to do without screwing everything else up. MS-8 will provide a single stage, located at or in front of the dashboard for all seating positions. I prefer that and it happens automatically and easily when the front seats are right.

4. Front steering works perfectly for all frequencies that the center channel will play and pathlengths don't matter much. For midbass frequencies that the left and right will play but the center channel won't, pathlengths are critical. A phantom center has to be generated for those sounds. If your center channel is a 3" and you have big-ass 8" speakers for right and left mounted in your doors, there's gonna be trouble. 

5. The subwoofer level control in MS-8 isn't a level control for the subwoofer output channels. It's a shelving filter that boosts bass in ALL channels below 60Hz, but never above 160 Hz. When you boost or cut, the slope of the filter is adjusted. This helps to maintain the illusion of bass up front by sending the appropriate amount of midbass to the front speakers and bass to the subwoofers. It also maintains the crossover point. Here are a couple of graphs that illustrate this and why it's better.

The first one is a conventional control. It's pretty obvious why this moves the image of the bass to the back and sounds boomy. There's too much interaction between sub and midbass. This is why people claim that "underlapping" the bass is important and why so many people try to get big-assed midbass drivers in the front of the car and cross the sub at 50Hz. With MS-8, that's totally unnecessary, and the evidence of that is in the second graph. 

I use a pair of 6" speakers driven by about 40 watts in the doors, another one in the center channel and a 500 watt amp on a pair of cheesy 10" woofers in an IB in the rear deck. The bass is seriously anchored to the front and the midbass is great. No hassles, no constant tweaking and I can boost bass by as much as 10dB on top of the target curve (which is a total of about 20dB) without the image shifting to the rear. I think my crossover point is about 80Hz, 4th order. 



















BTW, this feature is also included in the MS-Amps using a wireless rotary control that can be paired to any number of bass and full range amps in the system. 

So, for front right left and center, you'd be better off with three 5" speakers (R,L, and C) than with 8s in the doors and a 3 in the center. If all you can get in the center is a 3", then try to move the midbass to the kick panels. If you can't do either, the car will still sound great, but the image for center-steered midbass sounds will be larger than it should be and will be biased a little bit to the side on which you sit. Not such a big deal.


----------



## AdamS

Onyx1136 said:


> Andy, we've gotten tons of info on what the MS-8 can do with the autotune, but what happens if it "hears" something it doesn't expect, or doesn't understand? For instance, if one were to replace another existing processor with an MS-8, but they didn't realize that maybe they had a blown speaker somewhere in their instal. What is the MS-8 going to do during autotune if say a rear speaker wasn't functioning? Is it intelligent enough to know that something is wrong, or is it just going to do the best it can with whatever it detects?is there any chance it will go into some sort of safe mode & tell you it thinks something is wrong? I'm not expecting it to troubleshoot problems or anything, just curious to know if it's smart enough to figure out that something strange is happening that it might not be able to compensate for, & maybe alert the user to check things out.
> 
> & thanx for all the hard work you do for us Andy.


If you have a bad speaker, you'll be able to detect this during the Output Diagnostics Menu. After you set up your speaker configuration, this menu allows you to send pink noise to any speaker at any level. If your speaker is a 3-way, it'll send pink noise in each frequency band, specified during speaker setup to the appropriate driver. 

The filter design algorithm will do the best it can given the data it receives.

If no data is received for a particular speaker, it'll do a pass-thru filter. 

If bad data is received, it'll try to compensate.


----------



## billymonter

Awesome!! Thank you very much Andy


----------



## mp3weenie

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hey Jay,
> There's no pass-through 5-channel mode. 2-channel input only, but Logic 7 can be turned off. What kind of car or head unit are you using?


So is the front end summing circuitry not done by the DSP? I would think that the 5.1 discrete processing could be provided if the DSP has access to the all front end inputs. To me this seems like a needed feature for any native factory or after-market 5.1 system. I am struggling with the requirement to put phased 2-channel output to the MS-8 to reproduce the original discrete multi-channel source. That just seems unnatural for a discrete multi-channel system.

Maybe you could add this feature (5.1 discrete input) as a software upgrade (that is if there is not hardware restrictions to prevent this)? That would seal the deal for me and maybe for other 5.1 system owners. Unless I am completely missing the boat on this one...


----------



## rommelrommel

5.1 =! Logic7. Logic7 takes a 2 channel downmix of your 5.1 and then does it's own processing. There's no need to take the 5.1 directly as coverting to a 2 channel downmix HAS to happen at some point to process to Logic7. It can't just take your 5.1 signal and pass it thru with processing as that just isn't what Logic7 does. 

This is as best as I understand it and I hope it's mostly correct.


----------



## jooonnn

Oh the pain! Will this replace my Pioneer DEH-P01?


----------



## trevordj

Andy, 

Thank you for such a lengthy and detailed response. I am currently setting up (what I thought would be) a system in my Volvo that is optimized for the MS-8. My heart sank a bit when I read in your post that results would be less than optimal with "big ass 8" woofers in the doors and a 3" mid in the dash." This is of course exactly what I have just done in my car. In the end you stated it wouldn't be such a big deal. 

My question for you: There is no way I can fit anything larger than a 3" mid and tweeter in the center of my Volvo's dash (the center is sandwiched between the AC vents and the Nav screen). I could however fit a 6" or 8" woofer in the center of the underside of the dash behind the floating console and use my amplifier's built in crossovers without time alignment. I am concerned that this would create a new set of problems given the woofer would be firing straight into the back of the floating console and it would be physically seperated from the mid and tweeter. My question is, which scenario is the lesser of two evils in your expeience? I recall that you drive a Volvo so I have not provided photos of the floating console however I can provide photos if that would help.


----------



## 14642

Hey Trevor,
What year and model is the Volvo?


----------



## trevordj

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hey Trevor,
> What year and model is the Volvo?


It is a 2010 (pre facelift) Volvo C30. My build log is here in case that helps.


----------



## 14642

OK. Here's what I suggest.

1. Design a little box for a midbass to go behind the console and try to make the pathlength to the driver's position similar to that of the 3" and tweeter in the center of the dash. Use an external crossover (in the amp, maybe) between the center midbass and the rest of the center. When you do the acoustic calibration, shut off the center mid and tweeter and the center midbass LPF during the first of the 4 sweeps in each seating position so MS-8 will align the center based on the location of the midbass.

2. Use separate MS-8 channels for the midbass and mid/high components in the front. 

3. Use one output channel of MS-8 for the sub.

4. use 2 channels for the rear. 

That'll work great, even if you can't precisely match the pathlengths for the center mid/high and the midbass. Just get as close as you can without making ridiculous modifications.


----------



## trevordj

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> OK. Here's what I suggest.
> 
> 1. Design a little box for a midbass to go behind the console and try to make the pathlength to the driver's position similar to that of the 3" and tweeter in the center of the dash. Use an external crossover (in the amp, maybe) between the center midbass and the rest of the center. When you do the acoustic calibration, shut off the center mid and tweeter and the center midbass LPF during the first of the 4 sweeps in each seating position so MS-8 will align the center based on the location of the midbass.
> 
> 2. Use separate MS-8 channels for the midbass and mid/high components in the front.
> 
> 3. Use one output channel of MS-8 for the sub.
> 
> 4. use 2 channels for the rear.
> 
> That'll work great, even if you can't precisely match the pathlengths for the center mid/high and the midbass. Just get as close as you can without making ridiculous modifications.


Thank you Andy! 

I will absolutely take your advice. Here are the easiest options I can think of for my center midbass, I want to get your input before I pull the trigger: 
1)I have a set of 6.5" midbasses and tweeters (Dynaudio 242GT) that I am putting in the rear. I could simply obtain another Dyn 162GT for use as the center channel midbass. 

2) I could use one of my existing 6.5" Dyns as the center (leaving the other unused) and purchase a set of 5.25" midbasses for the rear. 

3) Purchase another Dyn 172 8" midbass for the center (with the idea of timbre matching with the front midbass) - my guess is you are going to say this is overkill which I would agree... this would certainly be the most practically challenging to implement. 

Last question: Do you see any issue with the center midbass firing straight into the back of the floating console? My guess is no, I just want to make sure. 

Thank you again for your input. I simply cannot wait to get my MS-8.


----------



## 14642

Either the 6 or the 8 in the center is fine. No timbre matching by identical speakers is required. That's MS-8's job. Firing the MB into the console isn't ideal, but so long as the LPF is pretty low, that won't matter much. Shoot for 70Hz to 200 or so.


----------



## BMWTUBED

trevordj said:


> Andy,
> 
> Thank you for such a lengthy and detailed response. I am currently setting up (what I thought would be) a system in my Volvo that is optimized for the MS-8. My heart sank a bit when I read in your post that results would be less than optimal with "big ass 8" woofers in the doors and a 3" mid in the dash." This is of course exactly what I have just done in my car. In the end you stated it wouldn't be such a big deal.
> 
> My question for you: There is no way I can fit anything larger than a 3" mid and tweeter in the center of my Volvo's dash (the center is sandwiched between the AC vents and the Nav screen). I could however fit a 6" or 8" woofer in the center of the underside of the dash behind the floating console and use my amplifier's built in crossovers without time alignment. I am concerned that this would create a new set of problems given the woofer would be firing straight into the back of the floating console and it would be physically seperated from the mid and tweeter. My question is, which scenario is the lesser of two evils in your expeience? I recall that you drive a Volvo so I have not provided photos of the floating console however I can provide photos if that would help.


Isn't this more or less what the MS-8 Biggs BMW had? Except the 8s are under the front seats and the center is a 4" (I think)


----------



## trevordj

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Either the 6 or the 8 in the center is fine. No timbre matching by identical speakers is required. That's MS-8's job. Firing the MB into the console isn't ideal, but so long as the LPF is pretty low, that won't matter much. Shoot for 70Hz to 200 or so.


Thank you Andy! I will shoot for the 6.5" woofer and call it a day.


----------



## 14642

BMWTUBED said:


> Isn't this more or less what the MS-8 Biggs BMW had? Except the 8s are under the front seats and the center is a 4" (I think)


Yup, and it works fine, with the same caveat about midbass placement. was good enough to win IASCA at SBN, but the under-seat placement is a little better than in the doors. We crossed the MB and the 4s at 200Hz, 4th order.


----------



## CobraVin

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> but the under-seat placement is a little better than in the doors. We crossed the MB and the 4s at 200Hz, 4th order.


thats surprising, i would have thought the doors being wider would have been better for midbass...circle of confusion wise


----------



## 14642

I'm not getting into the circle of confusion discussion. I think the floor was better for the 8s because there were already speakers there, the mounting was sturdy and well baffled, there were no rattles, no wind blowing the legs of my pants around and the seat helps to muffle the sound of any high-frequency distortion that comes from the drivers.


----------



## BMWTUBED

Andy, 
What car is your system installed in if you don't mind me asking?


----------



## 14642

2004 Volvo S60r. I don't use an MS-8 anymore. I have a Mac Mini that runs VST plug-ins. Some of those plug-ins are development modules for MS-8 and some are for some other stuff that may or may not ever make it to market. Basic system design is similar, though, and all the general principles for building a system for MS-8 apply.


----------



## Mic10is

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> 2004 Volvo S60r. I don't use an MS-8 anymore. I have a Mac Mini that runs VST plug-ins. Some of those plug-ins are development modules for MS-8 and some are for some other stuff that may or may not ever make it to market. Basic system design is similar, though, and all the general principles for building a system for MS-8 apply.


Back in like 2003 or 2004 at Steel Valley Regional you had a processor, I think in your mini, that was said to be the amp/processor out of a Land Rover system.
How much if the MS8 is the same processor and how much of it is new?

I thought that processor could do some pretty amazing things, like phase controls at varying frequencies etc...

what happened to it?


----------



## wdemetrius1

timelord9 said:


> June-ish.


Wow, that's right around the corner. Thanks.


----------



## perfektj

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, actually, there's a secret display mode that will flash, "Your system sucks so badly that even MS-8 can't fix it." Then, a secret camera will appear on the top of the display, take your picture and upload it automatically to the Team JBL Facebook page, where we'll all make fun of you.
> 
> Ms-8 is like a rock polisher, not an alchemist.


Too funny. Reminds me of 'Tommy Boy' with the tack hammer.


----------



## 14642

All good questions. The 2-channel downmix available on most DVDs is designed to encode the discreet channels into the 2-channel mix in a way that matrix processors can decode. See the diagram above for a clue about how those signals are mixed in. If you were in your living room at home, then there would be no reason to do any of this. The encoded stuff is designed for listening in rooms an designed mostly for movies. The principal objective (as it seems to me) is to anchor dialogue to the screen and provide 3-D effects for movies--flyovers, frog noises all around, dinosaur steps that shake the house, etc. From my perspective, LFE and bass management are fancy terms for "crossover and summing circuit". While they may be complicated to explain and they sound cool, bass is easy and it's even easier in cars. 

Some music DVDs are mixed in multichannel so that they place te listener in the audience and some are mixed so that they place the listener on the stage. You can probably guess what my perspective on that is. In any case, discreet algorithms are often panned by music lovers as "non-musical" sounding and I tend to agree, unless the system includes a huge center channel and subs placed all over the room and are tuned differently for music than for movies. Furthermore, I've never in all my life heard a multichannel movie demo that i cared about. I've never heard an explosion or a dinosaur and have no idea what they're supposed to sound like. 

MS-8 is designed to make cars sound great, but not necessarily to preserve all the whiz-bang technology that marketing materials for multichannel processors and processes tout. The primary benefit of Logic 7 in cars, considering the overwhelming use case of 2-channel material over discreet multichannel recordings is in center channel processing to overcome the installation headaches of kick panel mounting necessitated by off-center seating. For cars that have a center channel location this is a big deal for a pair of listeners in the front seats. Even for single seat listening, I prefer a dedicated center channel. A secondary and more subtle benefit is the front rear steering and the sense of ambience it provides. This depends on the recording, but I've never wanted to turn L7 off, no matter what I'm listening to. Of course, none of the multichannel stuff means much if there's no room correction, and that's the primary sonic benefit of MS-8. Finally, the fact that this thing can be hooked up to nearly any system is important too. 

Logic 7 is not intended to synthesize a room independent of what's contained in the recording. Room synthesis is a separate project and that's why there's a mac Mini in my car--hint, hint...

Compared to what else is out there for making cars sound great easily, MS-8 has no peer, unless you're a seriously accomplished tuner with some tools that aren't available in over-the-counter car audio prodicts.


----------



## Technic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> All good questions. The 2-channel downmix available on most DVDs is designed to encode the discreet channels into the 2-channel mix in a way that matrix processors can decode. See the diagram above for a clue about how those signals are mixed in. If you were in your living room at home, then there would be no reason to do any of this. The encoded stuff is designed for listening in rooms an designed mostly for movies. The principal objective (as it seems to me) is to anchor dialogue to the screen and provide 3-D effects for movies--flyovers, frog noises all around, dinosaur steps that shake the house, etc. From my perspective, LFE and bass management are fancy terms for "crossover and summing circuit". While they may be complicated to explain and they sound cool, bass is easy and it's even easier in cars.
> 
> Some music DVDs are mixed in multichannel so that they place te listener in the audience and some are mixed so that they place the listener on the stage. You can probably guess what my perspective on that is. In any case, discreet algorithms are often panned by music lovers as "non-musical" sounding and I tend to agree, unless the system includes a huge center channel and subs placed all over the room and are tuned differently for music than for movies. Furthermore, I've never in all my life heard a multichannel movie demo that i cared about. I've never heard an explosion or a dinosaur and have no idea what they're supposed to sound like.
> 
> MS-8 is designed to make cars sound great, but not necessarily to preserve all the whiz-bang technology that marketing materials for multichannel processors and processes tout. The primary benefit of Logic 7 in cars, considering the overwhelming use case of 2-channel material over discreet multichannel recordings is in center channel processing to overcome the installation headaches of kick panel mounting necessitated by off-center seating. For cars that have a center channel location this is a big deal for a pair of listeners in the front seats. Even for single seat listening, I prefer a dedicated center channel. A secondary and more subtle benefit is the front rear steering and the sense of ambience it provides. This depends on the recording, but I've never wanted to turn L7 off, no matter what I'm listening to. Of course, none of the multichannel stuff means much if there's no room correction, and that's the primary sonic benefit of MS-8. Finally, the fact that this thing can be hooked up to nearly any system is important too.
> 
> Logic 7 is not intended to synthesize a room independent of what's contained in the recording. Room synthesis is a separate project and that's why there's a mac Mini in my car--hint, hint...
> 
> Compared to what else is out there for making cars sound great easily, MS-8 has no peer, unless you're a seriously accomplished tuner with some tools that aren't available in over-the-counter car audio prodicts.


What the Logic7 in the MS-8 can do that the OEM Logic7 in BMW is not doing?


----------



## perfektj

Was there ever a post of a detailed wiring diagram for the system in the BMW? I count a total of 14 speakers and 2 subs. I assume that the front three channels with the 4" and tweets are using one channel a each and the same for the two 8" midbass. Are the subs using one channel? Are the rear and side speakers on the same channel? I am trying to plan a similar set up for my Suburban, and need to figure out how the eight channels are allocated.
Thanks


----------



## 14642

Technic said:


> What the Logic7 in the MS-8 can do that the OEM Logic7 in BMW is not doing?


Some of the steering settings are different but the fundamentals are the same. The MS-8's L7 is designed to provide a center image located in the center of the dashboard. Some of the OE systems are designed to provide a center image in front of each listener.


----------



## 14642

perfektj said:


> Was there ever a post of a detailed wiring diagram for the system in the BMW? I count a total of 14 speakers and 2 subs. I assume that the front three channels with the 4" and tweets are using one channel a each and the same for the two 8" midbass. Are the subs using one channel? Are the rear and side speakers on the same channel? I am trying to plan a similar set up for my Suburban, and need to figure out how the eight channels are allocated.
> Thanks


Precisely. 4" and tweeters in the front left center and right use passive crossovers. The 8" under the seats use 2 channels. Sub uses one and the sides and rears are driven by the same 2 output channels also with passives between the 4" and the tweeters.


----------



## perfektj

Thanks Andy.


----------



## Technic

perfektj said:


> Was there ever a post of a detailed wiring diagram for the system in the BMW? I count a total of *14 speakers and 2 subs*. I assume that the front three channels with the 4" and tweets are using one channel a each and the same for the two 8" midbass. Are the subs using one channel? Are the rear and side speakers on the same channel? I am trying to plan a similar set up for my Suburban, and need to figure out how the eight channels are allocated.
> Thanks


13 speakers total, 9-channels driven: front (2), center(1), rear side (2), rear (2), underseat woofers (2).


----------



## Technic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Some of the steering settings are different but the fundamentals are the same. The MS-8's L7 is designed to provide a center image located in the center of the dashboard. Some of the OE systems are designed to provide a center image in front of each listener.


So other than the 31 band EQ for manual adjustment, the MS-8 auto-EQ curve should be fundamentally the same used as the OEM?


----------



## perfektj

I thought they added a tweeter to the stock 4" in the center for a total of 14.


----------



## 14642

Technic said:


> So other than the 31 band EQ for manual adjustment, the MS-8 auto-EQ curve should be fundamentally the same used as the OEM?


No. The BMW doesn't autotune. The curve is different. The bass contol is completely different. The tone controls are different. MS-8 allows you to save favorites and optimize for different seating positions. The MS-8 includes preamp outputs, a display and a remote control. The MS-8 provides a center output that supports a tweeter. The MS-8 will do 7.1 and the 3-series BMW is a 5.1 system. The MS-8 is fully configurable and will support 48 different speaker system configurations. 

I'm not sure what kind of answer you're hoping for. If you want me to tell you that MS-8 will provide better sound than the L7 OE system, I can't that depends on your requirements. If you want me to tell you whether it will sound better than the DIRAC system, I can't do that either. I've never heard one.


----------



## Technic

perfektj said:


> I thought they added a tweeter to the stock 4" in the center for a total of 14.


That's the Individual Audio/Enhanced Premium System, 16 speakers total (3 more tweeters in coaxials).


----------



## 14642

Technic said:


> That's the Individual Audio/Enhanced Premium System, 16 speakers total (3 more tweeters in coaxials).


He was asking about the MS-8 system in our demo 3-series. We added a sub, a tweeter in the center and the rear doors and a 4" and tweeter in each side of the rear deck.


----------



## Technic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No. The BMW doesn't autotune. The curve is different. The bass contol is completely different. The tone controls are different. MS-8 allows you to save favorites and optimize for different seating positions. The MS-8 includes preamp outputs, a display and a remote control. *The MS-8 provides a center output that supports a tweeter. The MS-8 will do 7.1 and the 3-series BMW is a 5.1 system. *The MS-8 is fully configurable and will support 48 different speaker system configurations.
> 
> I'm not sure what kind of answer you're hoping for. If you want me to tell you that MS-8 will provide better sound than the L7 OE system, I can't that depends on your requirements. If you want me to tell you whether it will sound better than the DIRAC system, I can't do that either. I've never heard one.


The question was more towards what differences are between the *Logic7* _processing and implementation_ in the MS-8 and the BMW OEM version, not what the MS-8 can do other than that.

And so far there are at least 4 distinct differences. 

Thanks.


----------



## Technic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> He was asking about the MS-8 system in our demo 3-series. We added a sub, a tweeter in the center and the rear doors and a 4" and tweeter in each side of the rear deck.


Stand corrected.


----------



## AdamS

Technic said:


> The question was more towards what differences are between the *Logic7* _processing and implementation_ in the MS-8 and the BMW OEM version, not what the MS-8 can do other than that.
> 
> And so far there are at least 4 distinct differences.
> 
> Thanks.


These are the main differences. 

1. Bass Management is not done inside of MS8's L7. L7 doesn't generate a subwoofer channel. It is done with the MS8 Allpass / Bass Management system alluded to earlier by Andy.

2. MS8 handles 45+ configurations. Whether the system is 2.x, 3.x, 4.x, 5.x, 6.x, 7.x, etc, Logic 7 will be optimized. 

The rest is pretty subtle.


----------



## mp3weenie

rommelrommel said:


> 5.1 =! Logic7. Logic7 takes a 2 channel downmix of your 5.1 and then does it's own processing. There's no need to take the 5.1 directly as coverting to a 2 channel downmix HAS to happen at some point to process to Logic7. It can't just take your 5.1 signal and pass it thru with processing as that just isn't what Logic7 does.
> 
> This is as best as I understand it and I hope it's mostly correct.


sorry but i thought that this unit with L7 disabled still did the autotune stuff and 31 band eq, etc. I would love to use MS-8 and most likely will but if it causes me headache to get a 2 channel downmix to it then my 100s of discrete multi-channel music releases (DVD-A, DTS as well as 70's QUAD recordings in CD-DTS) are going to be a wash without additional effort using the MS-8. So then again I ask, why not support multi-channel discrete input without L7 processing? Sorry to beat a dead horse here.


----------



## 14642

The EQ, time alignment and user adjustable features work whether L7 is on or off. Yo may find that those features provide such a benefit that the additional spatial effects provided with your discreet multichannel recordings pale by comparison. I can assure you that if you can select a 2-channel downmix, the playback will be better than a discreet solution that doesn't include great EQ and time alignment.


----------



## BMWTUBED

perfektj said:


> Was there ever a post of a detailed wiring diagram for the system in the BMW? I count a total of 14 speakers and 2 subs. I assume that the front three channels with the 4" and tweets are using one channel a each and the same for the two 8" midbass. Are the subs using one channel? Are the rear and side speakers on the same channel? I am trying to plan a similar set up for my Suburban, and need to figure out how the eight channels are allocated.
> Thanks


Andy, 
What was the crossover point between the 8s under the seats and the subs?
Thanks


----------



## AdamS

mp3weenie said:


> sorry but i thought that this unit with L7 disabled still did the autotune stuff and 31 band eq, etc. I would love to use MS-8 and most likely will but if it causes me headache to get a 2 channel downmix to it then my 100s of discrete multi-channel music releases (DVD-A, DTS as well as 70's QUAD recordings in CD-DTS) are going to be a wash without additional effort using the MS-8. So then again I ask, why not support multi-channel discrete input without L7 processing? Sorry to beat a dead horse here.


Side note... the newer formats like Dolby True HD don't actually downmix via summation to obtain a 2 channel format. The extra 2 streams are actually encoded in the original content, provided by the artist/studio and thus should be high quality.


----------



## mp3weenie

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The EQ, time alignment and user adjustable features work whether L7 is on or off. Yo may find that those features provide such a benefit that the additional spatial effects provided with your discreet multichannel recordings pale by comparison. I can assure you that if you can select a 2-channel downmix, the playback will be better than a discreet solution that doesn't include great EQ and time alignment.


Andy you have me convinced that it will be worth the effort to get my discrete recordings down to 2 channel phased downmix to realize the benefits of the MS-8 and L7 processing while remaining faithful to the original surround mix... I am just bitching because to do so I have do go through some added pain to getting that way. My deck only provides a "JVC surround headphone output" (phased downmix I assume) when in DUAL ZONE mode where the remote is the only thing that controls the deck (no head controls). As far as doing it on the computer to ipod (which would be ultimate) it seems it is going to be a multi-step process using a chain of codec/encoders etc. which I have not figured out yet. All I was saying was that a phase shifting front end for each 5 channel input would solve the pain above (i think). thanks,


----------



## mp3weenie

cajunner said:


> from what I've read, it sounds like live music that is full of 'room noise' is especially well rendered by MS-8, and anything that can convey a sense of space in stereo will be good for an ambient field. If the matrix decoding circuitry can detect that ambient information in a downmix then it should work well, but what it sounds like is that Logic7 as implemented in a car is the best representation possible with 2 channel, and will provide at least Dolby Pro-Logic quality, from DD or DTS sources.
> 
> However, if in Dolby Digital movie mode, you won't hear a missile scream from your driver headlight across the car to the passenger tail light, that kind of discrete information will be lost and what you will hear is driver headlight to the rear of the car, without really distinguishing direction.... crickets chirping behind you aren't going to be localized to a point in space? I don't know, seems like having those l/r rears, and sides are supposed to do something with the signal other than just provide a sense of space, but like Andy says, even if it's just the T/A and EQ without Logic7 it's still at least as good as Audyssey's MultEQ XT and with Logic7 it's on another level entirely.
> 
> I'll go ahead and take a guess and say that at this level of processing it's not going to be too hard to produce the ambient field of say, Red Rocks Amphitheatre, or the Ryman, or the Fillmore... maybe that's going to be MS-9...


I just want to comment on a misconception that multi-channel music only utilizes the surround field for ambience. This is completely untrue except in the case of live titles. For example, The Polyphonic Spree "Were so heavy" has all of the choral sound stage in the back as well as some other accompanying instruments. King Crimson Lizard, Dark side of the moon, on and on all use the expansive mix in various ways (however some releases are just terrible depends on the producer etc.). I encourage you to explore and it should be eye opening. The MS-8 should make it all the more incredible.


----------



## 14642

cajunner said:


> However, if in Dolby Digital movie mode, you won't hear a missile scream from your driver headlight across the car to the passenger tail light, that kind of discrete information will be lost and what you will hear is driver headlight to the rear of the car, without really distinguishing direction.... crickets chirping behind you aren't going to be localized to a point in space? I don't know, seems like having those l/r rears, and sides are supposed to do something with the signal other than just provide a sense of space, but like Andy says, even if it's just the T/A and EQ without Logic7 it's still at least as good as Audyssey's MultEQ XT and with Logic7 it's on another level entirely.


I can't say whether the missle will be be reproduced precisely as it would be with discreet surround, but L7 is designed to do a better job of separating right and left surround than many of the other matrix processors. When I've listened to some downmixed stuff I definitely hear distinct differences in right and left rear and audience sounds are great. Furthermore, I made a L7 test disc as a 2-channel track and encoded rotating pink noise and a rotating voice and both definitely move around the car in a circle.


----------



## Robertlars

Hello Andy,

I pre-ordered (paid for on Harman's site) one of the MS-8's already, i.e., ordered / paid for on Monday, 29 Mar 2010. I called Harman's customer support staff and asked when (estimated date) they opined they would have the first batch off and ready for shipment and they told me in the June 2010 time frame, (same as the website stated). However, if production is going on now, is this still a realistic date or might I be lucky with my pre-order and get the MS-8 earlier, and if so, what is an estimated date?

Thanks in advance for your help in answering this question and in assisting me in managing my expectations insofar as an approximate delivery date are concerned.

Best regards,

Bob


----------



## 14642

THe 31 band EQ is applied to all the channels. Since they've already been matched and tuned by the auto EQ, it simply changes the frequency repsonse of the system according to what you draw. In the digital signal path, it's applied to the 2-channel signal. 

I'm sure Adam will correct me if I'm worng about that. I don't think so, though.


----------



## 60ndown

is it still fair to say that the less processing in the signal will reveal the 'cleanest' sound?

or are electronics so good nowdays that the music /signal passing through all these electronics is not affected negatively?

yes its doing a lot to overcome the difficult environment of a vehicle, but seems like a lot of solder and capacitors and pcbs etc to pass a nice acoustic guitar or female vocals thru, 

can it be done without degrading the signal?

these days.

or 

would you run the ms-8 in your home rig andy?


----------



## 14642

60ndown said:


> is it still fair to say that the less processing in the signal will reveal the 'cleanest' sound?
> 
> or are electronics so good nowdays that the music /signal passing through all these electronics is not affected negatively?
> 
> yes its doing a lot to overcome the difficult environment of a vehicle, but seems like a lot of solder and capacitors and pcbs etc to pass a nice acoustic guitar or female vocals thru,
> 
> can it be done without degrading the signal?
> 
> these days.
> 
> or
> 
> would you run the ms-8 in your home rig andy?


The guitar and the vocal don't travel through the PCB nor the solder. A simple alternating current passes through them and yes, it'll make it through to the other side just fine. The point is that it's necessary to change the signal to make up for the deficiencies in the acoustic system. Think of it as believability rather than accuracy. 

How about this. Let's say your wife or girlfriend sends you to the store to get 10 cans of Green Giant creamed corn. You're walking home from the store with the corn and as you round the corner at the stoplight, someone jumps out from behind a bush, hits you over the head and tries to take 5 of those cans. You fight him off, but 5 of the cans are dented and the labels are scratched up. Knowing that your significant other won't tolerate anything but the most pristine of cans, you walk the rest of the way home lamenting the damage. Just as you turn to enter your driveway, there's a guy who can, with the wave of a magic wand, restore the cans to like new condition. In order to get him to do it, you'll have to renounce your belief that to repair the cans and the labels is somehow an anathema and admit, for all to hear, that a repaired can is, in fact, equal to an unaltered can. You reluctantly agree, fall on your knees and recite, "A can is a can and will always be a can so long as it's a can." The can wizard smiles and with a wave of his wand, the cans are as good as new. 

You enter the house, and your wife (or girlfriend) asks, "Hey, what was all that commotion I heard outside?"

You reply, "Nothing, honey. I was concerned that the cans of corn might have been degraded during my walk home. Here, check them out."

To which she replies, "Wow, these are the most beautiful cans of Green Giant creamed corn I've ever seen. I don't remember the picture of the corn being quite so vivid and the logo really stands out. Hey, check that out. You can almost make out the shape and size of the Giant's giant wand. Oh my God. You're so handsome. Dinner can wait." She leads you upstairs to the bedroom and makes love to you like you were both 19 again. 


Hmmm...I'll take some...EQ, that is, and a bunch of other signal processing too, especially if it makes listening more enjoyable.


----------



## Knobby Digital

That's one hell of an analogy.

Way to make a point.


----------



## 60ndown

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The guitar and the vocal don't travel through the PCB nor the solder. A simple alternating current passes through them and yes, it'll make it through to the other side just fine. The point is that it's necessary to change the signal to make up for the deficiencies in the acoustic system. Think of it as believability rather than accuracy.
> 
> How about this. Let's say your wife or girlfriend sends you to the store to get 10 cans of Green Giant creamed corn. You're walking home from the store with the corn and as you round the corner at the stoplight, someone jumps out from behind a bush, hits you over the head and tries to take 5 of those cans. You fight him off, but 5 of the cans are dented and the labels are scratched up. Knowing that your significant other won't tolerate anything but the most pristine of cans, you walk the rest of the way home lamenting the damage. Just as you turn to enter your driveway, there's a guy who can, with the wave of a magic wand, restore the cans to like new condition. In order to get him to do it, you'll have to renounce your belief that to repair the cans and the labels is somehow an anathema and admit, for all to hear, that a repaired can is, in fact, equal to an unaltered can. You reluctantly agree, fall on your knees and recite, "A can is a can and will always be a can so long as it's a can." The can wizard smiles and with a wave of his wand, the cans are as good as new.
> 
> You enter the house, and your wife (or girlfriend) asks, "Hey, what was all that commotion I heard outside?"
> 
> You reply, "Nothing, honey. I was concerned that the cans of corn might have been degraded during my walk home. Here, check them out."
> 
> To which she replies, "Wow, these are the most beautiful cans of Green Giant creamed corn I've ever seen. I don't remember the picture of the corn being quite so vivid and the logo really stands out. Hey, check that out. You can almost make out the shape and size of the Giant's giant wand. Oh my God. You're so handsome. Dinner can wait." She leads you upstairs to the bedroom and makes love to you like you were both 19 again.
> 
> 
> Hmmm...I'll take some...EQ, that is, and a bunch of other signal processing too, especially if it makes listening more enjoyable.


 that is a great breakdown of a digital signal path and processing, thanks.

so the 'holographic imaging' some *audiophiles* profess to achieve with a turntable, 2 watts, full range drivers and chair positioned correctly, and room treatments is,

fresh corn on the cobb ? 

or 

LSD induced recall from the 60s?


----------



## 14642

or...self deception, which has its benefits.


----------



## 60ndown

that could ruffle some feathers.


----------



## kkant

60ndown said:


> so the 'holographic imaging' some *audiophiles* profess to achieve with a turntable, 2 watts, full range drivers and chair positioned correctly, and room treatments is,
> 
> fresh corn on the cobb ?
> 
> or
> 
> LSD induced recall from the 60s?


Or...even if true in a house, it's something that is never going to happen in a car without DSP. We don't have the luxury of large listening spaces with foamy room treatments. A car interior is a "processor" which completely ****s over the sound. Getting a "pure" signal through the electronics to the speakers is completely pointless in a car. What matters is getting the right signal to your ears.


----------



## win1

So when is it available been hearing about it and where can I find info on this processor JBL website? Enough talk or am I just late?


----------



## n_olympios

kkant said:


> Or...even if true in a house, it's something that is never going to happen in a car without DSP. We don't have the luxury of large listening spaces with foamy room treatments.


Not to mention zero PLDs.


----------



## 14642

The whole point of left, right and center steering is to mininimize the importance of PLDs by eliminating the need for the system to generate a phantom center image.


----------



## 14642

win1 said:


> So when is it available been hearing about it and where can I find info on this processor JBL website? Enough talk or am I just late?


We're late, but the unit is in production now. 


It's available for preorder. The estimated ship date posted on www.harmanaudio.com is June 1, but i think that's worst case. Preorders will be filled before any others. There's a link to the owner's manual in this thread and the rest of this thread is the most comprehensive collection of questions, answers and explanations that you'll find anywhere.


----------



## xlynoz

I'm not intending to use the internal amp on the MS-8, so I was wondering if there was a way to turn it off like you can do on the Alpine 9887. I've read through the manual and unless I missed it I didn't see that option.


----------



## 14642

No, you just don't use it. It can't deliver any current if there's no load. There's no downside.


----------



## trigg007

60ndown said:


> so the 'holographic imaging' some *audiophiles* profess to achieve with a turntable, 2 watts, full range drivers and chair positioned correctly, and room treatments is,
> 
> fresh corn on the cobb ?
> 
> or
> 
> LSD induced recall from the 60s?



 you need to get out of the house more often or stop reading Stereophile & The Absolute Sound.


----------



## trigg007

kkant said:


> Getting a "pure" signal through the electronics to the speakers is completely pointless in a car. What matters is getting the right signal to your ears.


 
and logic spews forth.....


----------



## ItalynStylion

What kind of amperage draw does the unit have when in use and NOT using the internal amp? I know it's kinda an obscure question but I actually was wiring up my truck in preparation for the unit and was wondering. I'm sure 4 gauge will be total overkill but I went for it anyways.


----------



## 14642

Yes, a 4 gauge is overkill even if you use the amplifier. 10 gauge is fine, unless you'll be competing in IASCA. In that case, the rules state that the unit won't function without a 00 gauge. 

Seriously, 10 is fine.


----------



## rommelrommel

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, a 4 gauge is overkill even if you use the amplifier. 10 gauge is fine, *unless you'll be competing in IASCA. In that case, the rules state that the unit won't function without a 00 gauge.*
> 
> Seriously, 10 is fine.


And a zip tie every 3 inches!


----------



## ItalynStylion

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, a 4 gauge is overkill even if you use the amplifier. 10 gauge is fine, unless you'll be competing in IASCA. In that case, the rules state that the unit won't function without a 00 gauge.
> 
> Seriously, 10 is fine.


Excellent, thanks Andy. 

And I know it goes without saying but I wanted to voice that I think we're all really lucky that you've stuck it out and finished up with this project. Thanks for remaining civil with our constant barrage of stupid (and sometimes repeated) questions.


----------



## bsptaco

No shipping to Hawaii....and I want to pre-order a unit.


----------



## 14642

Why no shipping to Hawaii? I'll find out tomorrow. Hmmm...What, is it... the sales prevention department?


----------



## designerfh

I can't seem to wrap my head around this.

If im running left, center, and right channels as a front stage, the drivers are identical, and im running the same power to each channel, how much louder would it be than if I just had left and right? Or is the loudness unaffected?

I can't tell if im going to get the benefits of mutliple midbasses/more cone area/more power or if its the same amount of content, just steered differently and divided by more "outlets" for lack of a better term.


----------



## BMWTUBED

rommelrommel said:


> And a zip tie every 3 inches!


No kidding. I don't compete, but I think it's rediculous what competitors have to do. Will they dictate the color of your tecflex next? They don't already do they?? Please tell me not...


----------



## rexroadj

Andy, I sent you a pm. I have a question about pricing that I would rather not ask via the public arena....I have sent you pms in the past and never got a reply so I am putting it on here in case for some reason you dont check them.
Thanks in advance for your time.


----------



## michaelsil1

BMWTUBED said:


> No kidding. I don't compete, but I think it's rediculous what competitors have to do. Will they dictate the color of your tecflex next? They don't already do they?? Please tell me not...


You can compete with just Sound Quality!


----------



## lycan

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The guitar and the vocal don't travel through the PCB nor the solder. A simple alternating current passes through them and yes, it'll make it through to the other side just fine. The point is that it's necessary to change the signal to make up for the deficiencies in the acoustic system. Think of it as believability rather than accuracy.
> 
> How about this. Let's say your wife or girlfriend sends you to the store to get 10 cans of Green Giant creamed corn. You're walking home from the store with the corn and as you round the corner at the stoplight, someone jumps out from behind a bush, hits you over the head and tries to take 5 of those cans. You fight him off, but 5 of the cans are dented and the labels are scratched up. Knowing that your significant other won't tolerate anything but the most pristine of cans, you walk the rest of the way home lamenting the damage. Just as you turn to enter your driveway, there's a guy who can, with the wave of a magic wand, restore the cans to like new condition. In order to get him to do it, you'll have to renounce your belief that to repair the cans and the labels is somehow an anathema and admit, for all to hear, that a repaired can is, in fact, equal to an unaltered can. You reluctantly agree, fall on your knees and recite, "A can is a can and will always be a can so long as it's a can." The can wizard smiles and with a wave of his wand, the cans are as good as new.
> 
> You enter the house, and your wife (or girlfriend) asks, "Hey, what was all that commotion I heard outside?"
> 
> You reply, "Nothing, honey. I was concerned that the cans of corn might have been degraded during my walk home. Here, check them out."
> 
> To which she replies, "Wow, these are the most beautiful cans of Green Giant creamed corn I've ever seen. I don't remember the picture of the corn being quite so vivid and the logo really stands out. Hey, check that out. You can almost make out the shape and size of the Giant's giant wand. Oh my God. You're so handsome. Dinner can wait." She leads you upstairs to the bedroom and makes love to you like you were both 19 again.
> 
> 
> Hmmm...I'll take some...EQ, that is, and a bunch of other signal processing too, especially if it makes listening more enjoyable.


That is, without a doubt, the _strangest_ analogy i've ever read.

And i've read a lot.


----------



## quality_sound

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Why no shipping to Hawaii? I'll find out tomorrow. Hmmm...What, is it... the sales prevention department?


Overseas military can't order either. Not that I would since USPS Priority isn't available though since all other carriers are stupid expensive to APO/FPO, just letting you know there are some of us in the same boat as HI and AK.


----------



## vactor

lycan said:


> That is, without a doubt, the _strangest_ analogy i've ever read.
> 
> And i've read a lot.


but it sure makes you want to know what else JBL is cooking up in their labs


----------



## rommelrommel

vactor said:


> but it sure makes you want to know what else JBL is cooking up in their labs


I'm pretty sure that meant buy this product and get laid.


----------



## 14642

No, it meant that if the sound that you hear can be fixed by some additional wizardry, then whatever signal "degradation" happens along the way doesn't matter, so long as the objective is to have the greatest enjoyment possible when you listen. Additionally, the reward for choosing believability over accuracy might be greater than you expect.

I agree, it's a complicated analogy, but I didn't think it was so strange.


----------



## Kramer

That analogy was amazing. Thanks Andy, that made my day. hah.


----------



## rexroadj

Look people.......everything makes more sense when you can add naked horny chicks.....Its pretty simple! Naked chicks and car audio go together like pea's and carrots!


----------



## BigRed

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, it meant that if the sound that you hear can be fixed by some additional wizardry, then whatever signal "degradation" happens along the way doesn't matter, so long as the objective is to have the greatest enjoyment possible when you listen. Additionally, the reward for choosing believability over accuracy might be greater than you expect.
> 
> I agree, it's a complicated analogy, but I didn't think it was so strange.


what happens when your wife says " I don't care how perfect those cans are...spending $799 is too damn much!" LOL I ship all my cans to my office address by the way


----------



## jimbno1

When you wife says "You can almost make out the shape and size of the Giant's giant wand." it is time to worry about things other than car audio. 

On a more serious note, I was planning on making AP kicks for JBL 2118H with ID mini horns in my truck. But it would be MUCH easier just to put them in the doors. Will the MS-8 enhance the sound to negate the advantages of AP kickpanel midbass/midrange (80 hz - 1200 hz) over door mounting? He asks hopefully


----------



## 14642

depends entirely on whether this will be a one-seat car or a two-seater and whether tyou'll have a center and how low it will play.


----------



## jimbno1

One seat, I did not plan for a center. The Center may be as much trouble as the AP kicks. I will have to see what is available when I tear it down to sound deaden and put in new seats. 

So I take it that without a center channel I am back to AP kicks as the best option.


----------



## 14642

If it's a one-seater, don't bother with the kicks. Pathlengths don't matter so long as you have time alignment.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If it's a one-seater, don't bother with the kicks. Pathlengths don't matter so long as you have time alignment.


Say what?

Time alignment can improve intelligibility and center the stage to a degree. But if you don't want to drive with your head in a vise, and you want real depth in the soundstage, there's no replacement for optimized pathlengths.


----------



## 14642

I'm not getting into a super lengthy discussion of the differences between using TA and equalizing pathlengths. That's been discussed and hammered on ad infinitum on this form and on others. From my experience, the difference isn't worth the hassle and the kick panel locations in many cars cause as much difficulty (frequency response and the car's drivability) as they eliminate (near side bias). 

If you want to solve the problem once and for all and don't want to make fabrication your life's work, use the existing center channel location (if your car has one), buy an MS-8 and leave the right and left speakers in the doors. If you don't have an existing center channel location, then you'll have to choose. MS-8 makes the choice a little easier by providing good auto EQ and TA and it takes 5 minutes to tune. 

I've seen some 5-minute kick panel jobs and none of them sounded very good--they were precisely aimed with a laser, though.


----------



## BMWTUBED

Andy,
I'm planning something very similar to the 3 series you and Biggs did.
What are your thoughts on using a good mid/sub in the underseat locations and foregoing the sub in the rear? I was thinking of the Morel ADMW9 running
30hz - 200hz. Any real down side to this other than the low end limitation?


----------



## michaelsil1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Additionally, the reward for choosing believability over accuracy might be greater than you expect.


Andy,

Are you referring to the difference between a flat response and a response curve?


----------



## 60ndown

michaelsil1 said:


> Andy,
> 
> Are you referring to the difference between a flat response and a response curve?


id guess he's saying,

if the image and soundstage are FANTASTIC/STUNNING/BREATHTAKING/HOLOGRAPHIC AND DEEEEEEEEEEP, we wont care if the signal is 'technically' less then perfect..


----------



## 14642

BMWTUBED said:


> Andy,
> I'm planning something very similar to the 3 series you and Biggs did.
> What are your thoughts on using a good mid/sub in the underseat locations and foregoing the sub in the rear? I was thinking of the Morel ADMW9 running
> 30hz - 200hz. Any real down side to this other than the low end limitation?


Keep the subs that are down there. I use a pair of the same 10" models in an IB in my rear deck and they rock. A couple hundred watts each and you should be fine (so long as you're not a basshead). If you decide that you need more bass, consider adding a sub in the back. Just changing out the speakers under the seats isn't going to be a night and day difference.


----------



## kkant

60ndown said:


> id guess he's saying,
> 
> if the image and soundstage are FANTASTIC/STUNNING/BREATHTAKING/HOLOGRAPHIC AND DEEEEEEEEEEP, we wont care if the signal is 'technically' less then perfect..


I don't quite look at that way. If all those characteristics are met (in addition to perfect tone, of course), then the signal is technically perfect. If those conditions are not met, then the signal is not perfect. The latter includes those situations where the original waveform is sent with complete purity and lack of alteration all the way to the speakers.


----------



## 14642

What if all that depth and tone and definition isn't in the recording, but it's generated by a DSP that sounds believable? Is that better or worse?


----------



## michaelsil1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> What if all that depth and tone and definition isn't in the recording, but it's generated by a DSP that sounds believable? Is that better or worse?


If it can place all the instruments in an Orchestra in their proper place I'll be one happy camper.


----------



## bsptaco

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Why no shipping to Hawaii? I'll find out tomorrow. Hmmm...What, is it... the sales prevention department?


According to the site: 'UPS Rates for this zip code unavailable. We do not ship to Alaska, Hawaii, Virgin Islands, Guam, Marshall Islands, etc.' 

If you do find a way to ship it here I'm game.


----------



## kkant

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> What if all that depth and tone and definition isn't in the recording, but it's generated by a DSP that sounds believable? Is that better or worse?


Better. Falls into the first category I mentioned. I think we agree on this, but I disagree with the idea presented by others that the signal is thereby "degraded" or made "imperfect", implying that we are settling for some kind of compromise. The whole point of the signal and whatever we do to the signal is ultimately to produce the best sound at our ears. If that is achieved, then the (processed) signal that gets to the amps/speakers is by definition perfect.


----------



## vactor

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> We're now taking preorders for MS-8 here:
> 
> Harman Audio
> 
> Choose the "create a back order" option to preorder. Back orders will be filled in the order in which we receive them and they'll begin to go out as soon as they arrive from the factory. Well...we will hold all of them for about 48 hours to do an incoming quality inspection--we do that with all products.
> 
> The website indicates availability in June. I think if you order now, you'll have it before June 1.
> 
> Also, you guys may not know where I live, but you do know how to get ahold of me. I'll provide personal tech support for all of you here at the forum, but I can't do that for everyone everywhere. If and when you order, please send me a PM here, I'll put you on my list.


thanks a ton andy. you're the man!!


----------



## TPMS

Andy, 
sorry but I still have one doubt concerning the* input setup*: it was said to take just the front left and right channels (line or speaker level) and so avoiding the summing and de-EQ step.
I had a closer look at stock front speakers connected to the Mercedes OE headunit/HK Logic7 AGW : midbass do not have any passive crossover, so that means that low frequencies are cut by the processor, and that obviously happens even in case I will choose the 2ch stereo downmix.
maybe it's a naive question but, doesn't it means that the signal I will feed the ms-8 with will be less-than a complete signal ? 

thanks


----------



## 14642

TPMS said:


> Andy,
> sorry but I still have one doubt concerning the* input setup*: it was said to take just the front left and right channels (line or speaker level) and so avoiding the summing and de-EQ step.
> I had a closer look at stock front speakers connected to the Mercedes OE headunit/HK Logic7 AGW : midbass do not have any passive crossover, so that means that low frequencies are cut by the processor, and that obviously happens even in case I will choose the 2ch stereo downmix.
> maybe it's a naive question but, doesn't it means that the signal I will feed the ms-8 with will be less-than a complete signal ?
> 
> thanks


You should only choose "Skip input setup" to avoid the input processing if you're using the 2-channel full range outputs of an aftermarket head unit. If you're using a factory head, you should run input setup. As a general rule, if the front speakers include a midbass driver, that's enough of the signal for MS-8 to figure out what it needs to figure out. If the mids are little (BMW 3-series, for example), then hooking up the output of the factory subwoofer amp may be necessary.


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> You should only choose "Skip input setup" to avoid the input processing if you're using the 2-channel full range outputs of an aftermarket head unit. If you're using a factory head, you should run input setup. As a general rule, if the front speakers include a midbass driver, that's enough of the signal for MS-8 to figure out what it needs to figure out. If the mids are little (BMW 3-series, for example), then hooking up the output of the factory subwoofer amp may be necessary.



my factory MOST Harman audiogateway has been modified a little for using it while waiting for MS-8 to come ..
so I have all of Logic7 's 7.1 channels available as pre-outs now: 1 for Center; 2 for Front doors; 2 for Rear doors; 2 for Rear Surrounds and 1 for Sub (2 indeed because it was originally divided in 2 for feeding the stock 2voice coils sub).
as I understand, i could: 
a)- plug all of them to the 8 line inpusts of ms-8; leave the HU in Logic7 mode as I normally use it and run the setup in ms-8 ( not desirable because ms-8 is not so happy at getting in center, LFE and Sub signals);
b)- set the HU in Stereo mode and plug front L+R only (but they will not be really Full range .. as said above)
c)- set Stereo mode and plug Front L+R + maybe Sub ??

btw, midbass are 6.5" 
and, I was forgetting, what to do with the mic installed into the cabin rearview mirror which works some kind of audio feedback adjustment ?

thanks

ps: seems i will find again in ms-8 those same TDA7563 that were in my AGW and already skipped .. LOL


----------



## 14642

Choose B or C. B is probably fine. If the mic is for hands free, then it can be left alone. If the mic is for noise cancellation, then it should be disconnected as the loop it requires to be effectve will be broken with any additional equipment.


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Choose B or C. B is probably fine. If the mic is for hands free, then it can be left alone. If the mic is for noise cancellation, then it should be disconnected as the loop it requires to be effectve will be broken with any additional equipment.



the mic is connected to the harman AGW.
it is called DRO- dynamicRange Optimization mic input and AFAIK, it compares the road noise to what the amp's output is and then makes the necessary changes ...

maybe I have it disconnected already, just don't know


----------



## 14642

Should be disconnected.


----------



## jimbno1

Now I am waffling on using horns versus convential drivers. If a center channel is very important or very desirable when using the MS-8, then what in the world could I use for a center channel? What would match the horns tone and sensitivity and still somehow be mountable without ridiculous modifications?

One drawback to using convential drivers is I would likely go with a 3-way which means no side or rear channels.


----------



## western47

jimbno1 said:


> Now I am waffling on using horns versus convential drivers. If a center channel is very important or very desirable when using the MS-8, then what in the world could I use for a center channel? What would match the horns tone and sensitivity and still somehow be mountable without ridiculous modifications?
> 
> One drawback to using convential drivers is I would likely go with a 3-way which means no side or rear channels.


I am not an expert but I was thinking down similar lines at one point. I was going to use a waveguide setup but the center channel would have the compression driver with waveguide in the center of the dash firing towards the windscreen. The center midrange/midbass would have been down towards the gear selector. Most everyone said that this would have been bad as the mid was way too low. 

I am going to go with conventional drivers. You can still do a setup using rears as long as your front left and front right speakers use a passive network between the channels. My mid and tweet have a network and then the midbass will be controlled separately by the MS-8.


----------



## Mic10is

jimbno1 said:


> Now I am waffling on using horns versus convential drivers. If a center channel is very important or very desirable when using the MS-8, then what in the world could I use for a center channel? What would match the horns tone and sensitivity and still somehow be mountable without ridiculous modifications?
> 
> One drawback to using convential drivers is I would likely go with a 3-way which means no side or rear channels.


Tony Pasquale used ID Cd2 Full size horns with a 6.5" center channel for years and won IASCA finals with that set up in like 2000 when there were still a decent number of cars per class.

I may attempt something similar as well


----------



## 14642

western47 said:


> You can still do a setup using rears as long as your front left and front right speakers use a passive network between the channels. My mid and tweet have a network and then the midbass will be controlled separately by the MS-8.


Right.


----------



## BigRed

andy, on a bmw 745 that has the under seat mibbass's that I believe are crossed at 160hz, how would you set it up with the MS-8? I don't believe the door signal has a full signal. Forgive me in advance if you answered this.


----------



## 14642

In that BMW, I suggest connecting the output of the factory amp that goes to those subs. The crossover to the 4" speakers is too high for MS-8 to be able to reconstruct the signal at the very lowest frequencies. The door signal doesn't have to have a full signal. If it has a HPF at 100 Hz at up to 4th order or anywhere close, MS-8 can get the bass back without having to connect the sub inputs.


----------



## 14642

For those of you located in Europe who are interested in getting an MS-8, please send me PM with an email address that's independent of the forum. I'll put you in contact with someone who can be more effective in helping you get one than I can be.


----------



## quality_sound

BigRed said:


> andy, on a bmw 745 that has the under seat mibbass's that I believe are crossed at 160hz, how would you set it up with the MS-8? I don't believe the door signal has a full signal. Forgive me in advance if you answered this.


Does the car have Ehanced Premium or L7? If not the front/rear outputs from the HU should be full range so there wouldn't be a need to tap the signal after the amp.


----------



## quality_sound

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> For those of you located in Europe who are interested in getting an MS-8, please send me PM with an email address that's independent of the forum. I'll put you in contact with someone who can be more effective in helping you get one than I can be.


PM sent.


----------



## Problemhouston

I have been driving the BMW (2008 328xi) around for the last month and it has no center and I have no idea how I (or anyone else) could get a center in my dash. I know it's not the L7 set up and don't know if its even the premium either.


----------



## quality_sound

You have the HiFi setup which is the mid-level system in the rest of the world. The Enhanced Premium system has a center channel so it SHOULD just be a matter of swapping parts, adding a speaker, and running new speaker wires unless that's already in the harness but I somehow doubt that it is.


----------



## jimbno1

Wow what a popular thread. I do not have a passive crossover for my conventional speakers with the exception of the Alpine F1s which pose other problems. The tweeter diameter is huge which makes for a difficuly A-pillar mount, expecially with the 4's. And the HP crossover point for the 4's is pretty high, like 600-700Hz as I recall. 

I know nothing about crossover design so making my own is out of the question. 

Could I use the crossover on my mid/tweeter amp and not mess everything up? 

And didn't Andy mention earlier in this thread that improper crossover were one of the worst offenders in properly tuning a vehicle? I notice that you have to set up crossover points during initial setup with the MS-8. Does it maintain those crossover points or does it adjust them as necessary?


----------



## trevordj

jimbno1 said:


> And didn't Andy mention earlier in this thread that improper crossover were one of the worst offenders in properly tuning a vehicle? I notice that you have to set up crossover points during initial setup with the MS-8. Does it maintain those crossover points or does it adjust them as necessary?


I think this will help (post 1858): 



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Adam has already answered the question about crossovers.
> 
> I think once you try thie product, you'll find that all of that other stuff dosen't need to be tweaked after autotune. One of the reasons that we're all after all of this control of every parameter all the time is because stuff is never quite right. Trying a thousand iterations of crossovers and EQ takes us a long time, but it doesn't take MS-8 very long to try thousands of solutions. The slopes and frequencies get adjusted when each channel receives it's share of the EQ. Furthermore, MS-8 builds the system as you enter the info. Tuning with crossovers is overrated and I find that there are basic settings that work for almost all systems, so long as they're EQed properly. I can't tell you how many championship-winning IASCA cars I've helped out with where the single biggest problem was crossover selection based on a bunch of wishful thinking. Front stages crossed at 40Hz while the sub was crossed at 60 or 70, midbass that plays from 40-60Hz, etc. The best way is to use steep slopes, minimize interaction and cross speakers ABOVE their resonance. So long as you follow those rules, you'll be happy with the results.
> 
> MS-8 may make this so easy that some of the mythology that currently makes tuning an "art" may be dispelled. I'd love that and so many more cars will sound great as a result.
> 
> At the begining of this program, I told the engineers that I wanted a back door so I could tune stuff myself. I no longer want that back door, I just want an MS-8 of my own so I can put away the RTA and the mics and have fun listening.
> 
> Fortunately, I get serial #1. Adam already has one.


----------



## kkant

jimbno1 said:


> And the HP crossover point for the 4's is pretty high, like 600-700Hz as I recall.


I don't think that's high, seems about right to me. 



jimbno1 said:


> Could I use the crossover on my mid/tweeter amp and not mess everything up?


Should be no problem. Sounds like a good idea. You'll probably want to use an amp that has 24db slopes. If running the tweeters active, I've found it to be a good idea to stick a cap inline with the tweeter, on the speaker wires. A big cap, with an F3 point well below your normal crossover point. This is to prevent damage to the tweeters from turn-on/off thumps. Naturally you'll want to eliminate the thumps, but while you're experimenting with your not-quite-finished system they can sometimes unexpectedly show up and burn out your tweets in an active setup.

Passive setups inherently get around this problem since the tweeter already has caps/coils passively preventing spikes from getting to the tweets.


----------



## hallsc

Andy,

In reference to a 3-way setup with rears, you concurred with western47 that the left and right front speakers must have a passive crossover between two of the three speakers each. Is the MS-8 capable of producing a mono (L-R) output? 

I have a vehicle that I am only interested in setting up for driver's seat; I don't carry passengers enough to care about how it sounds from other positions. My desire for final setup is three-way in the front, two speakers in the rear wired in series with an (L-R) output as described in the huge L-R thread, and a sub. If the MS-8 could output the (L-R) with the one channel, it would be possible for this whole setup to be active, which I would greatly prefer due to intened location of the front speakers causing TA to be a factor. Is this possible? 

If not, is the processing sent to the rear channels from the MS-8 much more advanced than the traditional (L-R) illusion? More importantly, if the above setup is not possible with the MS-8, under which setup would I get more out of my system (tuned for only the driver's seat) through the MS-8:
a). going 3-way partially active (2/3 speakers share passive crossoveron each side), a center channel (possibly), two rear speakers, and a sub, or
b). going 3-way fully active, center channel (again possibly), no rears, and a sub?

Thanks Andy for putting so much time and thought into keeping us well informed of this project!


----------



## Technic

Problemhouston said:


> I have been driving the BMW (2008 328xi) around for the last month and it has no center and I have no idea how I (or anyone else) could get a center in my dash. I know it's not the L7 set up and don't know if its even the premium either.


This is what you need for a bolt-on center speaker in your dash:










Individual Audio coaxial speaker: P/N 65 13 7 838 915 $117.86










Speaker grille assembly (item #2): P/N 51 45 7 123 750 $28.14 

Speaker screws (3): P/N 07 13 6 800 249 $0.26

Speaker cable with connector: P/N 61 12 6 928 611 $4.86

I think that your car already has item #5 installed, the _speaker mount_. If not then it is P/N 51 45 7 123 751 ($8.27).

That will do.


----------



## BigRed

quality_sound said:


> Does the car have Ehanced Premium or L7? If not the front/rear outputs from the HU should be full range so there wouldn't be a need to tap the signal after the amp.


regular L7


----------



## Problemhouston

Technic said:


> This is what you need for a bolt-on center speaker in your dash:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Individual Audio coaxial speaker: P/N 65 13 7 838 915 $117.86
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speaker grille assembly (item #2): P/N 51 45 7 123 750 $28.14
> 
> Speaker screws (3): P/N 07 13 6 800 249 $0.26
> 
> Speaker cable with connector: P/N 61 12 6 928 611 $4.86
> 
> I think that your car already has item #5 installed, the _speaker mount_. If not then it is P/N 51 45 7 123 751 ($8.27).
> 
> That will do.


WOW. Thank you so much for this. I spend I don't know how much time yesterday going through forums and searches for this info. Now it should just be simple enough to walk into my dealership and ask for the above parts. Thanks again you saved me a crap load of time.


----------



## rcurley55

realoem.com is your friend if you own a bmw


----------



## Problemhouston

rcurley55 said:


> realoem.com is your friend if you own a bmw


It is now! My problem was know what the heck to look for in the first place.


----------



## Technic

Problemhouston said:


> WOW. Thank you so much for this. I spend I don't know how much time yesterday going through forums and searches for this info. Now it should just be simple enough to walk into my dealership and ask for the above parts. Thanks again you saved me a crap load of time.


I should have stated that the center speaker grille P/N depends of your dash being for the iDrive (double scoop) or not (single scoop):

- double scoop: P/N 51 45 7 123 *750*

- single scoop: P/N 51 45 7 123 *749*


----------



## mmiller

How close are we to seeing this thing on the Market?????


----------



## rcurley55

Pre-orders are supposed to be filled before June - not sure about the rest of the distribution network


----------



## mosca

*Andy*, do you know how much is it going to cost in Europe or when is it going to ship here?


----------



## quality_sound

Technic said:


> This is what you need for a bolt-on center speaker in your dash:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Individual Audio coaxial speaker: P/N 65 13 7 838 915 $117.86
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speaker grille assembly (item #2): P/N 51 45 7 123 750 $28.14
> 
> Speaker screws (3): P/N 07 13 6 800 249 $0.26
> 
> Speaker cable with connector: P/N 61 12 6 928 611 $4.86
> 
> I think that your car already has item #5 installed, the _speaker mount_. If not then it is P/N 51 45 7 123 751 ($8.27).
> 
> That will do.





Technic said:


> I should have stated that the center speaker grille P/N depends of your dash being for the iDrive (double scoop) or not (single scoop):
> 
> - double scoop: P/N 51 45 7 123 *750*
> 
> - single scoop: P/N 51 45 7 123 *749*


I know what I'm doing tomorrow.  



rcurley55 said:


> Pre-orders are supposed to be filled before June - not sure about the rest of the distribution network


I'm still waiting to hear back form Andy about my options. Stationed overseas but have a US mailing address but German physical address. Maybe I'll just have it sent to my parents' house if I don't hear from him soon.


----------



## perfektj

Andy,

I have a set of convertible components that I am going to install in the front and rear doors of my 2005 Suburban, do you think that it would be better to leave them as a point source or to place the tweeter higher up in the A and B pillars? I am planning on fabricating a center channel by either making a speaker pod that sits on top of the dash or placing the midrange down low and the tweeter on the center of the dash. Do you think that it would be best in this application to go 7.1 and add speakers in the D pillars because of the size of the Suburban? Your help and input will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks


----------



## 14642

hallsc said:


> Andy,
> 
> In reference to a 3-way setup with rears, you concurred with western47 that the left and right front speakers must have a passive crossover between two of the three speakers each. Is the MS-8 capable of producing a mono (L-R) output?
> 
> I have a vehicle that I am only interested in setting up for driver's seat; I don't carry passengers enough to care about how it sounds from other positions. My desire for final setup is three-way in the front, two speakers in the rear wired in series with an (L-R) output as described in the huge L-R thread, and a sub. If the MS-8 could output the (L-R) with the one channel, it would be possible for this whole setup to be active, which I would greatly prefer due to intened location of the front speakers causing TA to be a factor. Is this possible?
> 
> If not, is the processing sent to the rear channels from the MS-8 much more advanced than the traditional (L-R) illusion? More importantly, if the above setup is not possible with the MS-8, under which setup would I get more out of my system (tuned for only the driver's seat) through the MS-8:
> a). going 3-way partially active (2/3 speakers share passive crossoveron each side), a center channel (possibly), two rear speakers, and a sub, or
> b). going 3-way fully active, center channel (again possibly), no rears, and a sub?
> 
> Thanks Andy for putting so much time and thought into keeping us well informed of this project!


My suggestion is to do a 2-way in the front and use two channels for the rears. Since you only need one seat optimized, this will work great without a center. Connect the mids and tweeters on one output (per side) of MS-8. The crossover between them can be outboard active or passive. When you do the acoustic calibration, (the first of the 4 sweeps), disconnect or cover the tweeters so the time alignment will be set of the location of the mids. The tweeter balance will be set by left and right level matching and EQ.


----------



## 14642

perfektj said:


> Andy,
> 
> I have a set of convertible components that I am going to install in the front and rear doors of my 2005 Suburban, do you think that it would be better to leave them as a point source or to place the tweeter higher up in the A and B pillars? I am planning on fabricating a center channel by either making a speaker pod that sits on top of the dash or placing the midrange down low and the tweeter on the center of the dash. Do you think that it would be best in this application to go 7.1 and add speakers in the D pillars because of the size of the Suburban? Your help and input will be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks


Front tweeeters on the dash on separate MS-8 channels and combine side and rear on two channels. If you can put the whole center on the top of the dash, that'll be best. Use a passive network between them and use a single channel for the center. 

Or, put the front tweeters on the dash, use the passive that came with them, use 4 channels for sides and rears and one for center. If you choose this option, use the suggestion above for covering or disconnecting the front tweeters so the time alignment will be set for the front midrange location.


----------



## jimbno1

Now I am confused again. If I am only concerned with a single seat setup I don't need a center channel? 

If I use channels 1 & 2 for HLCD and channels 3 & 4 for Midbass, or 3-way setup as suggested above channels 1 & 2 for Mid/Tweet, and channels 3 & 4 for midbass. Say channel 5 for sub. 

What would be the best use for the remaining 3 channels? Side or rear? Or can you run side in stereo and rear in mono? Or run one channel each for sides and rears in parallel? 

Sorry to ask again but it seems like there is conflicting information as to the need or desirability of a center channel in a single seat setup. Also the ways of optimizing the side/rear channels.


----------



## rommelrommel

The whole idea of a center is to avoid having to create a phantom center, so if it's a strictly one seat car TA can pretty much take care of that.


----------



## quality_sound

Nope. Single seat cars see very small benefit from a center.

Andy,
have you had a chance to take a look at my PM? I want to get one back-ordered ASAP. is Harman's warehouse in CA? That $80 in tax hurts, a lot. Might be time to move out of SoCal with that ridiculous nearly 10% sales tax.


----------



## vactor

quality_sound said:


> Nope. Single seat cars see very small benefit from a center.
> 
> Andy,
> have you had a chance to take a look at my PM? I want to get one back-ordered ASAP. is Harman's warehouse in CA? That $80 in tax hurts, a lot. Might be time to move out of SoCal with that ridiculous nearly 10% sales tax.


lol, chicago has 10.25 LOL ... 9% on a car ... OUCH! 

back on topic, i want to use the MS-8 in my infiniti G37 sedan. it has a stock 10 speaker system. 3 ways in the front doors with a 10", 3" and 1"; a 4" center channel, a pair of 6.5" coaxials in the rear doors and an IB subwoofer in the rear deck. suggestions would be welcome for an optimal speaker setup ... would be for a 2 seat setup, but usually i drive alone :O 

i was thinkiing a jbl 400 gti center channel, replace the oem speakers in the front doors (10" sb acoustics sub, 3" fountek mid, 1" tweeter) oem rar speaks and a new sub IB in the trunk with some additional power. but, i would appreciate input for optimal speaker selection and positioning ...

or, 4" gti center, 504gti coaxes in the kicks, oem rears and an IB sub with a mono amp in the trunk ... either setup would be pretty simple to install. what would you suggest andy? anyone?


----------



## 14642

For thos of you who are overseas and awaiting a response from me about getting units, thanks for your patience. I'm on it, but I've been killed every day this week. I'll be in Europe next week and will get this going then. In the mean time, thanks for sending me your contact info.


----------



## quality_sound

Hey Andy,

I was just rereading some posts in the thread and saw something that might preclude me from the MS-8 festivities. 

First, my car is a 2010 M3. I WILL NOT cut into the carto add extra drivers. For speaker locations I have 8s under the front seats, a 4 and tweeter in each door and I can add a 4 and tweeter in the center of the dash easily using OEM parts. Rear deck has a 4 and tweeter on each side. Subs are undecided but not where I'm hung up.

I saw that you had mentioned having a large size disparity between the center and front midbasses would cause a lot of problems. Given my unwillingness to cut into the car will the MS-8 be able to correctly perform it's magic? I'm thinking not, but I'd rather hear it straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak, so I can go curl up in the corner and cry.

Thanks Andy,
Paul


----------



## rcurley55

quality_sound said:


> Hey Andy,
> 
> I was just rereading some posts in the thread and saw something that might preclude me from the MS-8 festivities.
> 
> First, my car is a 2010 M3. I WILL NOT cut into the carto add extra drivers. For speaker locations I have 8s under the front seats, a 4 and tweeter in each door and I can add a 4 and tweeter in the center of the dash easily using OEM parts. Rear deck has a 4 and tweeter on each side. Subs are undecided but not where I'm hung up.
> 
> I saw that you had mentioned having a large size disparity between the center and front midbasses would cause a lot of problems. Given my unwillingness to cut into the car will the MS-8 be able to correctly perform it's magic? I'm thinking not, but I'd rather hear it straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak, so I can go curl up in the corner and cry.
> 
> Thanks Andy,
> Paul


Paul - keep reading - Andy addresses that it's a minor issue with the midbass only - keep in mind Gary's BMW has the same speaker config...


----------



## quality_sound

Will do. Thanks Rob.

edit: Did I read correctly that the 3-series was using OEM speakers with new subs and a couple of extra tweeters? 

TBH, I'm really at the point where all I want to do is add more power, the MS-8 and a sub or two and be done. I can wire in the center channel easily enough and the OEM center is a coax so I shouldn't have to add a tweeter, correct? I'm trying to tear into the car as little as possible. 

Thanks all.


----------



## mosca

*quality_sound*, from Gary Biggs himself:



> BMW I-drive
> BMW speakers in stock location, addition of a tweeter to the center channell
> as well as addition of tweeters to the rear doors.
> JBL MS-8 (added)
> JBL W12GTi MK II subs in a vented box (added)
> JBL power series amps (added)


CARSOUND.COM Forum - View Single Post - JBL 2006 BMW with MS-8 procesor


----------



## Technic

quality_sound said:


> Will do. Thanks Rob.
> 
> edit: Did I read correctly that the 3-series was using OEM speakers with new subs and a couple of extra tweeters?
> 
> TBH, I'm really at the point where all I want to do is add more power, the MS-8 and a sub or two and be done. I can wire in the center channel easily enough and the *OEM center is a coax so I shouldn't have to add a tweeter, correct?* I'm trying to tear into the car as little as possible.
> 
> Thanks all.


The reason that I posted the BMW Individual Audio OEM center coaxial P/N was because of its tweeter, as that was one of the three tweeters added to the OEM speakers in the original 2006 3-Series MS-8. There was no Individual Audio option for the 3-Series available in 2006. 

The BMW OEM Logic7 center speaker is not coaxial, it is just a single 4" driver.


----------



## quality_sound

Ahhhhh, I see. Well that makes like simpler. Is it a true coax or does the IA system filter the drivers actively? 

I was just going to PM about this next question but since you're here... IA tweeters. Worth picking up to replace the HiFis? I know you prefer the IA mids and I'm debating between them or the Morel HO4s I have on the way simply because of how fast the swap would be and how inexpensively the IA driver can be found.


----------



## rcurley55

quality_sound said:


> Will do. Thanks Rob.
> 
> edit: Did I read correctly that the 3-series was using OEM speakers with new subs and a couple of extra tweeters?
> 
> TBH, I'm really at the point where all I want to do is add more power, the MS-8 and a sub or two and be done. I can wire in the center channel easily enough and the OEM center is a coax so I shouldn't have to add a tweeter, correct? I'm trying to tear into the car as little as possible.
> 
> Thanks all.



This makes me want to upgrade my M3 to a newer one or a 335i just to combine the ms-8 with the audio setup!

I've been thinking an Xd600/6 to power the front, center, rears, XD400/4 for the midbasses up front, and a XD600/1 for the subs


----------



## Problemhouston

quality_sound said:


> Will do. Thanks Rob.
> 
> edit: Did I read correctly that the 3-series was using OEM speakers with new subs and a couple of extra tweeters?
> 
> TBH, I'm really at the point where all I want to do is add more power, the MS-8 and a sub or two and be done. I can wire in the center channel easily enough and the OEM center is a coax so I shouldn't have to add a tweeter, correct? I'm trying to tear into the car as little as possible.
> 
> Thanks all.


You and me both... The less work I have to do the better. I am leaving all speakers stock and ordering all the parts I need for my currently missing center and will build my own enclosure. Only problem for me is going to be finding someone around here that can wire the MS-8 up.


----------



## quality_sound

I was thinking a pair of 900/5s but I'll end up with an extra sub channel I may or may not use and I'd have an extra channel after powering the fronts, center, and midbasses. one 900/5 would be powering the midbasses and a sub, the other would power the doors and center with one left over. I'd have to figure out how to cross the door and center speakers passively or everything would get 100 Watts and I'd STILL have to work out a crossover since the 900/5 won't do low pass on the mains or high pass over 500Hz. 

Damn this shallow trunk storage area. Ugh. 

What to do, what to do...


----------



## quality_sound

Problemhouston said:


> You and me both... The less work I have to do the better. I am leaving all speakers stock and ordering all the parts I need for my currently missing center and will build my own enclosure. Only problem for me is going to be finding someone around here that can wire the MS-8 up.


Normally I would just dive right in as I have with all my other cars but i've always been a VW guy so I know them inside and out. Being my first BMW, and an M, I'm a bit hesitant to tear into it. I have had the center stack out and it does seem to coma apart easily.


----------



## rcurley55

quality_sound said:


> I was thinking a pair of 900/5s but I'll end up with an extra sub channel I may or may not use and I'd have an extra channel after powering the fronts, center, and midbasses. one 900/5 would be powering the midbasses and a sub, the other would power the doors and center with one left over. I'd have to figure out how to cross the door and center speakers passively or everything would get 100 Watts and I'd STILL have to work out a crossover since the 900/5 won't do low pass on the mains or high pass over 500Hz.
> 
> Damn this shallow trunk storage area. Ugh.
> 
> What to do, what to do...


I'd just work out a simple passive for the doors/center. My car has the tiny/shallow spare tire are as well. The HD's are a little too rich for my blood, hence the XD. For my current system, I'm looking at 75/tweeter, 200/midbass, 600/subs. That should be enough power for me. Add the extra amplifier to do 75 x 5 + 200 x 2 + 600 x 1 - that's the plan at least!


----------



## Technic

quality_sound said:


> Ahhhhh, I see. Well that makes like simpler. Is it a true coax or does the IA system filter the drivers actively?
> 
> I was just going to PM about this next question but since you're here... IA tweeters. Worth picking up to replace the HiFis? I know you prefer the IA mids and I'm debating between them or the Morel HO4s I have on the way simply because of how fast the swap would be and how inexpensively the IA driver can be found.


I replaced my front Individual components with the Morels, and to tell you the truth I don't notice a "gotta have it" difference, the OEM are really great especially after tuned by DSP. The only reason that I got the Morels was that a set came up in the classified real cheap and I wanted to try them, but I can't see myself paying $700 for a set. 

An IA front set is not cheap either, some $520 a new set with discounts. I have not seen any sets used anywhere (I'm not looking either), but if you see a set for sale anywhere get it if the price is right.


----------



## quality_sound

Check German eBay. I saw quite a few last I looked. I'm sure there are still some up there. I wonder if it's worth replacing the HiFi stuff either. I know right now the tweeters sound terrible. No extension but I don't knwo how much of that is the tweeter and how much is tuning.

What Morels do you have? I might be willing to take them off of your hands.


----------



## VP Electricity

Technic, you really think you could amplify those Ind mids and play them as low as you play the Morels?

Going to local distributor roadshow Monday, should have some JBL presence, will report if any MS-8 presence...


----------



## quality_sound

In the HiFi system they play to 160Hz and they're not stressed at all. Granted they're not seeing much power either but they play that low just fine. I'm sure the IA versions are even better.


----------



## Technic

VP Electricity said:


> Technic, you really think you could amplify those Ind mids and play them as low as you play the Morels?
> 
> Going to local distributor roadshow Monday, should have some JBL presence, will report if any MS-8 presence...


I have tried the front Individual components down to 80Hz and it can handle it very well for an OEM 4" driver; the OEM tweeter is tight. But the way I got my setup done I got them back to 100Hz to balance the SWS-8 under the seats.

This was with 150W+ RMS per channel from a PDX 4.150.


----------



## Technic

quality_sound said:


> Check German eBay. I saw quite a few last I looked. I'm sure there are still some up there. I wonder if it's worth replacing the HiFi stuff either. I know right now the tweeters sound terrible. No extension but I don't knwo how much of that is the tweeter and how much is tuning.
> 
> What Morels do you have? I might be willing to take them off of your hands.


I have the Hybrid Ovation set.


----------



## VP Electricity

You played factory 4" on 150W down to 80... Flat on the eq? 

I was taught that when you drop one octave you need 4x the excursion to maintain flat output. So from 160 to 80, your excursion quadruples...


----------



## quality_sound

Technic said:


> I have the Hybrid Ovation set.


Let me know if you decide to go back to you OEM drivers. I'll take the Morels off of your hands.


----------



## TPMS

Technic said:


> The reason that I posted the BMW *Individual Audio OEM center coaxial* P/N was because of its tweeter, as that was one of the three tweeters added to the OEM speakers in the original 2006 3-Series MS-8. There was no Individual Audio option for the 3-Series available in 2006.
> 
> The BMW OEM Logic7 center speaker is not coaxial, it is just a single 4" driver.



do you have a pic of that 4" oem coax, and who's the producer ?

just curious to see if its tweeter is something similar to the 4" morel Integra I installed as surrounds ...

in any case, for the center I preferred the stronger bass capability of HO 4"+ separate MT23 !


----------



## Technic

VP Electricity said:


> You played factory 4" on 150W down to 80... Flat on the eq?
> 
> I was taught that when you drop one octave you need 4x the excursion to maintain flat output. So from 160 to 80, your excursion quadruples...


I started flat as I don't know the specs of this OEM speaker, and it started compaining at around 4dB boost at 80Hz.


----------



## 14642

Problemhouston said:


> You and me both... The less work I have to do the better. I am leaving all speakers stock and ordering all the parts I need for my currently missing center and will build my own enclosure. Only problem for me is going to be finding someone around here that can wire the MS-8 up.


'

Is Driver's Den still in business? Those guys ought to be able to do this for you.


----------



## Technic

TPMS said:


> do you have a pic of that 4" oem coax, and who's the producer ?
> 
> just curious to see if its tweeter is something similar to the 4" morel Integra I installed as surrounds ...
> 
> in any case, for the center I preferred the stronger bass capability of HO 4"+ separate MT23 !












I don't remember the manufacturer, but it is not any of the regular BMW suppliers (Becker, Alpine, HK, Blaupunkt).


----------



## TPMS

Technic said:


> I don't remember the manufacturer, but it is not any of the regular BMW suppliers (Becker, Alpine, HK, Blaupunkt).


nice .. I see your not short of tech info 

design compares enough to Integra XO ..


----------



## Technic

TPMS said:


> nice .. I see your not short of tech info
> 
> design compares enough to Integra XO ..


They are Eton drivers... I sent them an email more than a year ago to ask them for their specs but they cannot provide that for contractual reasons with BMW.


----------



## quality_sound

That definitely looks like an Eton cone. So at least I have the center driver figured out.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> OK, now that my butt has recovered from 15 hours in the same chair yesterday, here goes.
> 
> Every few milliseconds, Logic 7 computes a steering angle by determining a couple of things about the stereo signal. Left, right and center steering is determined by level differences between left and right signals. Mono information--the information that's common to left and right--is steered to the center. Don't confuse mono as L+R for what's actually going on here. Although this isn't how it's done, you could think of the mono info as (L+R)-lL-Rl. It's all of the sound minus the sound that appears only in the left or the right. That mono information is also attenuated in the left and the right. The amount of that information that appears in left and right is an important part of making this thing sound great in cars. If the information is completely removed from left and right, then I don't think it works very well in cars. The images are spot on, but they're really small and don't sound believable, to me. If the mono information isn't attenuated at all, then the stage is narrowed a bit and the images are big and kind of nebulous. Left of center and right of center aren't very accurate. Attenuating the mono signal in left and right by 6dB works great and that's what MS-8's L7 does.
> 
> The front-to-rear steering angle is computed by determining the phase relationship between left and right. -180 degrees steers to the rear. -90 degrees steers about halfway between front and rear. The level differences between left and right determine rear left and right steering.
> 
> Finally, when information is steered front, one of the rear and side channels is polarity-swapped. This helps to anchor front steered sounds in the front, and that's why sides and rears shouldn't make a bunch of midbass. That out-of-phase condition in the back works for imaging, but not for midbass. Fortunately, we all want the midbass to sound like it comes from the front, so it's just easier to make sure that it does.
> 
> Side and rear are also delayed by several milliseconds, but rear is delayed more.
> 
> Very low frequencies are not steered. They're simple stereo.
> 
> Here's a set of drawings that sort of illustrates this. The first one illustrates what you can expect from a L+R center.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here's a simplification of what happens with L7:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, when you implement this in a car, here are some pointers:
> 
> 1. Sides and rears don't have to make bass. I use a 3" and a tweeter in the back and a 6" component system in the sides, but they're crossed over at 100Hz, 4th order. The 6" speakers in the sides are overkill, but that's what fit in the doors.
> 
> 2. It's helpful if the side and rear tweeters are at about ear level. Don't mount them in the bottom of the doors.
> 
> 3. If you won't put 4 speakers in the back and you'll use only 2 instead, MS-8 will process them as sides. That's no problem and the difference between 5.1 and 7.1 is really hard to hear. It's nice to have rears and sides if you'll have rear seat passengers. Logic 7 in OE systems mixes some front-steered information into the sides, so the rear seat passengers have their own stage at the back of the front seats. Making those adjustments is car and speaker-location dependent and it's seriously difficult to do without screwing everything else up. MS-8 will provide a single stage, located at or in front of the dashboard for all seating positions. I prefer that and it happens automatically and easily when the front seats are right.
> 
> 4. Front steering works perfectly for all frequencies that the center channel will play and pathlengths don't matter much. For midbass frequencies that the left and right will play but the center channel won't, pathlengths are critical. A phantom center has to be generated for those sounds. If your center channel is a 3" and you have big-ass 8" speakers for right and left mounted in your doors, there's gonna be trouble.
> 
> 5. The subwoofer level control in MS-8 isn't a level control for the subwoofer output channels. It's a shelving filter that boosts bass in ALL channels below 60Hz, but never above 160 Hz. When you boost or cut, the slope of the filter is adjusted. This helps to maintain the illusion of bass up front by sending the appropriate amount of midbass to the front speakers and bass to the subwoofers. It also maintains the crossover point. Here are a couple of graphs that illustrate this and why it's better.
> 
> The first one is a conventional control. It's pretty obvious why this moves the image of the bass to the back and sounds boomy. There's too much interaction between sub and midbass. This is why people claim that "underlapping" the bass is important and why so many people try to get big-assed midbass drivers in the front of the car and cross the sub at 50Hz. With MS-8, that's totally unnecessary, and the evidence of that is in the second graph.
> 
> I use a pair of 6" speakers driven by about 40 watts in the doors, another one in the center channel and a 500 watt amp on a pair of cheesy 10" woofers in an IB in the rear deck. The bass is seriously anchored to the front and the midbass is great. No hassles, no constant tweaking and I can boost bass by as much as 10dB on top of the target curve (which is a total of about 20dB) without the image shifting to the rear. I think my crossover point is about 80Hz, 4th order.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, this feature is also included in the MS-Amps using a wireless rotary control that can be paired to any number of bass and full range amps in the system.
> 
> So, for front right left and center, you'd be better off with three 5" speakers (R,L, and C) than with 8s in the doors and a 3 in the center. If all you can get in the center is a 3", then try to move the midbass to the kick panels. If you can't do either, the car will still sound great, but the image for center-steered midbass sounds will be larger than it should be and will be biased a little bit to the side on which you sit. Not such a big deal.


Andy, when using a 2-way center setup with a dash mounted 5.5" coax (passively crossed over) and an 8" high efficiency midbass on the front forward floor of a minivan. 

How much output potential do door or kick mounted midbass need to have? Would the same 8" be an over kill?

Here's a pic. The 8" would go in an enclosure in place of the dash compartment marked with the arrow.


----------



## 14642

Where are the right and left speakers going to go? If you can get a 5" in the center and don't need the car to play super loud, the 8" and the center woofer are overkill. If your center can get close to 100Hz, it's fine and there's no need for more difficulty. There's also no need for a sub crossover at 50Hz, so this whole midbass thing is kinda overblown for MS-8 based systems. See your reposting of my post above and think carefully about the sub bass control. That's the key. Boosting the bass doesn't add a bunch of midbass contribution from the woofer.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Where are the right and left speakers going to go? If you can get a 5" in the center and don't need the car to play super loud, the 8" and the center woofer are overkill. If your center can get close to 100Hz, it's fine and there's no need for more difficulty. There's also no need for a sub crossover at 50Hz, so this whole midbass thing is kinda overblown for MS-8 based systems. See your reposting of my post above and think carefully about the sub bass control. That's the key. Boosting the bass doesn't add a bunch of midbass contribution from the woofer.


Yeah, I'm kinda going for a good amount of output for both front seats. 

I picked an HE driver for the very reason you mentioned about not needing it to go that low. I fugured I could cross it at 80 or so and use the greater efficieny that it has over a standard 8" for EQ headroom or simply greater output.

The L/R midbass will go on the lower front part of the doors, in the OEM locations with a passive 2"+3/4" combo in the sail pods (they get loud if crossed over at 800Hz).


----------



## michaelsil1

Andy,

How are things looking with the production schedule?


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> Yeah, I'm kinda going for a good amount of output for both front seats.
> 
> I picked an HE driver for the very reason you mentioned about not needing it to go that low. I fugured I could cross it at 80 or so and use the greater efficieny that it has over a standard 8" for EQ headroom or simply greater output.
> 
> The L/R midbass will go on the lower front part of the doors, in the OEM locations with a passive 2"+3/4" combo in the sail pods (they get loud if crossed over at 800Hz).


OK, then I'd do the 8 in the center too.


----------



## 14642

michaelsil1 said:


> Andy,
> 
> How are things looking with the production schedule?


First batch is scheduled to be completed today. Those go for outgoing quality inspection. Then they go on a plane. Next Friday, another batch is completed and some of those go on a plane for advance incoming quality inspection in the US warehouse. The delivery date to us depends on US Customs and shipping from the port to the warehouse. Once inspection is done and an appropriate number of units have passed, they go on the UPS truck to eager enthusiasts who have pre-ordered. The rest come to us on a boat. 

Quality inspection takes about 4 days depending on the batch size. I don't know precisely when they'll be available to ship to you guys, but they're coming...


----------



## rexroadj

Hey Andy, per our discussion via pm regarding my JBL accomodations......I have emailed and got no response and called and the person was acting like I was speaking a foreign language when discussing the ms-8 (I assure you I was speaking english, dont know anything else except I can speak fluent hick If you are able to find out any more about it that would be most appreciated. If not, I do realize its not exactly your department or problem.
Thanks again


----------



## 14642

cajunner said:


> that's what I was thinking, pick a super high efficiency, ragged response driver and let the auto-eq fix that right up, no more worries about peaks and dips when the MS-8 has got your back...
> 
> no more choosing between lower sensitivity, higher cost product that is designed at high cost for smooth RTA, slap in a couple of Whip or Eminence 100db mids and you're sounding like Skaaning on the flip fo' show...


 
Of course, this is a valid method, and you'll likely see much more of this from the OEs as the popularity of electric cars and hybrids increase. It's much cheaper in terms of money and current to use high efficiency drivers than more powerful amps, but optimizing drivers for high efficiency always means reducing the useable bandwidth. You'll see more 3-ways and more small midrange drivers playing narrower bands of frequencies. All of this will be good for imaging too and will make cars sound better. The attendant help will come in the form of crossovers that keep drivers playing in ranges where their directivity is low (sound radiates in all directions). 

Fortunately, a driver has to be really crappy to have a ragged response in the narrower passband where it's most efficient. If you choose this high efficiency route, MS-8 will take care of most of the ugly peaks and dips, but beware of the big peak that you see in the on axis response of all moving coil direct radiating loudspeakers (the kind that have cones and domes). That high frequency peak isn't attenuated as much as the "non-peaky" response off axis. That's makes EQ less effective, because removing the peak in the on-axis response will help to create a bigger hole off axis--basically, the reflected sound won't sound like the direct sound. In a car, that's a bigger problem than in rooms. Crossovers should be chosen to take that peak out of band. This is a big issue for a 6" 2-way, but no issue for a 3-way that includes a little midrange driver. 

Wide bandwidth speakers are the OPPOSITE of the kind of driver that you'd need to implement this kind of design. Be prepared to cross woofers over a little higher and use low pass frequencies for the rest of your speakers that are a little lower than you're used to. 

Hmmm...this sounds like fun. I think I need to find a guinea pig at work and build this car with the cheapest drivers I can find.


----------



## AAAAAAA

very cool... on other news this thread will soon reach the 100 000 views. Neet.


----------



## kkant

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> but beware of the big peak that you see in the on axis response of all moving coil direct radiating loudspeakers (the kind that have cones and domes). That high frequency peak isn't attenuated as much as the "non-peaky" response off axis.


I didn't know that this was a fundamental property of all drivers. Could you elaborate? What causes it? And what characteristic of the driver is the frequency of this peak a function of? IOW, can I predict the frequency based on the diameter of the cone, for example?


----------



## t3sn4f2

cajunner said:


> that's what I was thinking, pick a super high efficiency, *ragged response driver and let the auto-eq fix that right up*, no more worries about peaks and dips when the MS-8 has got your back...
> 
> no more choosing between lower sensitivity, higher cost product that is designed at high cost for smooth RTA, slap in a couple of Whip or Eminence 100db mids and you're sounding like Skaaning on the flip fo' show...


I was thinking to use the output headroom of an HE driver along with EQ to fix what the cabin does to the sound not the driver's characteristics though. There's really no reason why an HE driver can not be as smooth as any other super high end DIY driver out there.

*Audio Technology 18H520613SD*











*Scan-Speak 18W8531G* 











HE driver : *18Sound 6ND430-16*


----------



## 14642

kkant said:


> I didn't know that this was a fundamental property of all drivers. Could you elaborate? What causes it? And what characteristic of the driver is the frequency of this peak a function of? IOW, can I predict the frequency based on the diameter of the cone, for example?


Yeah, it is. It's a function of cone distortion and you can see it in the graphs above. These all appear to be really good drivers and someone has either paid careful attention to this or these measurements are made through a low pass filter. 

The worst of the peaks and the one that doesn't go away off axis is caused by the center of the cone becoming decoupled from the rest of the cone. This property is exploited in the use of whizzer cones, where a small cone is attached to the center to shape and extend the response of that peak. The reason it doesn't go away off axis, is because the actual radiator that emits the sound is a small part (smaller diameter) of the cone that has much lower directivity than the whole cone. The stiffer the cone, the higher the frequency and the higher the Q of the peak. If the cone is more compliant (like a polypropylene cone) the lower the frequency of the peak and the lower the Q of the peak (wider peak). The size and weight of the coil and former affect this too. A heavy coil will cause the center of the speaker to decouple at a lower frequency and a larger diameter coil will increase the size of the secondary radiator. This is one of the reaons that sometimes you'll find really high end 6" midranges have small coils. It's to tame this high frequency problem. The trade off is thermal power handling. So, is a big coil better than a small one? Not necessarily--depends on the intended application.

This is why so many inexpensive car audio speakers use PP cones. It's easy to make the speaker sound good, especially in cars, because the floppy plastic cone has a low-Q rise at high frequencies. It's easy to align a tweeter with the high frequency response of the woofer for a generally rising response. In a car, where we hear the power response of the speaker (average of the output at all angles) that rising response sounds pretty flat and it only requires one crossover component--a cap on the tweeter.

Flat response requires that we cross the speaker over lower--before the peak, but that requires a bigger tweeter or a small midrange and more crossover components.

If any of you remember the Infinity Prelude MTS speaker (a home speaker), this is a really good example of one way to get flat response from super-stiff cones. That speaker uses a bunch of 5" woofers a 2-1/2" mid and a tweeter in a sort of expanded MTM arrrangement. The super stiff cones push the peak to high frequencies and the steep crossover slopes eliminate it from the response. The result is really flat response and near perfect directivity index for rooms, but it's expensive because the crossovers have many components, the cones are ridiculously expensive and the additional midrange is required. The marketers decided that we had to use those same cones in car audio drivers but no matter how we tried, we couldn't make it work very well for big 2-way speakers. That series of Kappa speakers didn't sound great and weren't big sellers--the marketers learned a lesson. 

There are many things that can be done to tame this peak and a stiff cone isn't always the best cone. Many pro-sound drivers have concentric rings molded into the cone (see older JBL pro speakers). Those rings are designed to create compliance in the cones to cause the cone to distort in a way that smooths the response at high frequencies--important when you'll use a 15" speaker to make 5-or 600 Hz. This can also be accomplished by varying cone thickness along the profile.

Exponential curves for speaker profiles are also designed to tame this peak, when compared to flat-sided cone-shaped cones. Dustcap materials and shapes can help to tame the peak also. 

Woven cones tend to distort according to the pattern of the weave, and adjusting the weave or the resin used to stiffen the fabric can help to flatten response too. Incidentally, that resin (type and amount) along with the material and the coarseness of the weave is what is used to adjust the compliance of the speaker's spider.

All of this is why simple cone-material stories are often a bunch of marketing hooey, especially when they just indicate that the cone material is stiff. Polypropylene isn't stiff. It's the opposite of stiff and it's chosen specifically for that property (also because it can be made to last a long time in adverse heat and humidity conditions). Laminates can be made to be stiff, but something can also be laminated in between the outside layers to make the cone stuffer, alter the profile or provide damping for resonance. If you read about the bodies of many high-end cars--I think Lexus does this--the body is sometimes a laminate of two layers of thin metal with some damping material in between. This is designed to eliminate resonance and quiet the cabin. 

Finally, a laser interferometer can be really helpful in designing good speakers. We use one. Basically, the designer can take a prototype into the chamber and make a simple frequency response measurement. That will show peaks and dips. Then, he takes the speaker to the interferometer, excites it at the problem frequency and the machine makes a movie of the movement of the cone at that frequency as a wireframe and a heat map. Then, appropriate measures can be taken to stiffen or weaken the cone to eliminate the peak or dip. I have some of these movies from the development of the 660GTi speakers along with some made for some really high-end competing speakers. The movies are huge and I have no idea how I could post them so you guys could see them. The interferometer works on boxes too. You can watch the box flex and add a brace at the appropriate spot to stop the flexing. 

So the moral of the story here is that a light cone driven by a strong motor won't make much bass, but it will be efficient. If that cone is really stiff, it *MAY* have flat response in the passband, but it *MAY* be ragged at the top of its frequency range. If the cone isn't so stiff, it _*MAY*_ have peaks and dips lower in the range of frequencies it plays, but the top end *MAY* be smoother. 

If you want to find out the quality of a driver and determine whether it's the right one for your system, look at the frequency response curve. It's the only way to tell. Reading about materials in marketing documents isn't helpful (and, in fact, it can be seriously misleading), unless you know what those materials may require in additional stuff. A speaker designer can look at a driver and tell in a few minutes whether the appropriate measures have been taken to provide flat response, but even he won't be able to tell whether the measure have worked without a response curve.

I know, I know...ask for a quarter, get a dollar...


----------



## t3sn4f2

I got those graph from Zaph's site. IIRC, they are tested full range on a baffle without an enclosure.


----------



## BigRed

I vote for Andy being our official interferometer tester  we have already compiled 74 drivers for testing Andy  Not like you have anything else going on  j/k great post by the way


----------



## 2DEEP2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Wide bandwidth speakers are the OPPOSITE of the kind of driver that you'd need to implement this kind of design. Be prepared to cross woofers over a little higher and use low pass frequencies for the rest of your speakers that are a little lower than you're used to.
> 
> Hmmm...this sounds like fun. I think I need to find a guinea pig at work and build this car with the cheapest drivers I can find.


Natan Budiano, he'll do it!


----------



## mosca

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Finally, a laser interferometer can be really helpful in designing good speakers. We use one. Basically, the designer can take a prototype into the chamber and make a simple frequency response measurement. That will show peaks and dips. Then, he takes the speaker to the interferometer, excites it at the problem frequency and the machine makes a movie of the movement of the cone at that frequency as a wireframe and a heat map. Then, appropriate measures can be taken to stiffen or weaken the cone to eliminate the peak or dip. I have some of these movies from the development of the 660GTi speakers along with some made for some really high-end competing speakers. The movies are huge and I have no idea how I could post them so you guys could see them. The interferometer works on boxes too. You can watch the box flex and add a brace at the appropriate spot to stop the flexing.


wow, verrrry interesing. how big are the movies? can't you upload them to YouTube or Vimeo?


----------



## quality_sound

Ugh...getting this back order created is next to friggin impossible. I could always have someone order it for me but then it's in their name, not mine. 

A little love for us stationed overseas??? Please?


----------



## 14642

Yo Quality,
I'm working on it. Seriously, I'll have a suggestion in the next couple of days...just need to get on a plane...


----------



## mosca

*Andy*, would be this interferometer thing similar to this? Klippel Scanning Vibrometer

here are some crude examples:

15'' Pro Driver
Rocking mode - Decomposition of movement components

 Midrange Driver with honeycomb membrane @ 6093 Hz
Bending mode - sound pressure related decomposition of movement


----------



## 14642

The second one is basically what I was writing about. It's pretty easy to see that the center of the cone moves opposite the rest of the cone. That's at one frequency. Other things happen at other frequencies, but basically different parts of the cone move differently and that causes peaks and dips in the response.

There are two good explanations of this in a couple of books I usually recommend. One is called "The Loudspeaker and Headphone Handbook" and the other is called "High Performance Loudspeakers" The second was written by Martin Colloms. It's the easier of the two.


----------



## quality_sound

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yo Quality,
> I'm working on it. Seriously, I'll have a suggestion in the next couple of days...just need to get on a plane...



It's all good Andy. I've been doing math homework for 2 days straight so I'm a bit on edge. 

I was able to make it work though. Between APObox (a company in NJ that gives overseas military a street delivery address and then mails our stuff to us), and Bank of America and their various fraud protections, etc. :computer: I finally got it all worked out and placed my order. :beerchug: My only real options were shipping to my folks (10% sales tax) or use my APObox address is Jersey (6%) so I went with the lesser of two evils. Now it's just a waiting game. 

:rockon::rockon::rockon::rockon::rockon::rockon:


----------



## 14642

Cool. Thanks.


----------



## quality_sound

No, thank YOU, Andy. Thank you and the rest of your team for seeing this through. Through all the naysayers, smack-talkers, and years of unedning questions and comments. 

Thank you.


----------



## mosca

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The second one is basically what I was writing about. It's pretty easy to see that the center of the cone moves opposite the rest of the cone. That's at one frequency. Other things happen at other frequencies, but basically different parts of the cone move differently and that causes peaks and dips in the response.


I see, it's striking to see how much it seems to move. is it just a data representation or is it strictly physical? it seems *a lot*.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> There are two good explanations of this in a couple of books I usually recommend. One is called "The Loudspeaker and Headphone Handbook" and the other is called "High Performance Loudspeakers" The second was written by Martin Colloms. It's the easier of the two.


to the reading list then 

this guy, Martin Colloms... the other day I stumbled on a presentation he made on Class D amps http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/Class-D.pdf (most of which I don't have the level to understand ATM) and as one of the closing points he had this:



> Despite 30 years of development for ClassD technology, at this stage HIFICRITIC does not think that it has truly attained High Fidelity standards.


(sorry for derailing the topic!)


----------



## michaelsil1

quality_sound said:


> Ugh...getting this back order created is next to friggin impossible. I could always have someone order it for me but then it's in their name, not mine.
> 
> A little love for us stationed overseas??? Please?


Make friends with a Loadmaster.


----------



## mosca

(I found a paper from Klippel about Cone Vibration and Radiation Diagnostics where they explain how this test works.)


----------



## 14642

mosca said:


> I see, it's striking to see how much it seems to move. is it just a data representation or is it strictly physical? it seems *a lot*.
> 
> 
> 
> to the reading list then
> 
> this guy, Martin Colloms... the other day I stumbled on a presentation he made on Class D amps http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/Class-D.pdf (most of which I don't have the level to understand ATM) and as one of the closing points he had this:
> 
> 
> 
> (sorry for derailing the topic!)


Go read about BCA at www.crownaudio.com

Those amps sound great, but let's not get into the Richard Clark amp challenge here, please. 

Yes, the difference in cone movement is a big deal.


----------



## quality_sound

michaelsil1 said:


> Make friends with a Loadmaster.


I know some actually. I'm even going to be in Georgia in a couple of weeks for some training. it's the paying for it that was being difficult. After that shipping wouldn't have been too hard to figure out.


----------



## mosca

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Go read about BCA at www.crownaudio.com


will this paper be fine? (had to Google it because the site is big and couldn't find BCA just browsing) Reinventing the Power Amplifier - BCA



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Those amps sound great, but let's not get into the Richard Clark amp challenge here, please.


sorry, it wasn't my intention.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, the difference in cone movement is a big deal.


if you could upload a movie of an enclosure test it would be very interesting to watch, too.


----------



## michaelsil1

quality_sound said:


> I know some actually. I'm even going to be in Georgia in a couple of weeks for some training. *it's the paying for it that was being difficult.* After that shipping wouldn't have been too hard to figure out.


Luckily I already have the money set aside. 

I'm hoping the MS-8 is all that Andy says it is.


----------



## quality_sound

michaelsil1 said:


> Luckily I already have the money set aside.


Not difficult as in I didn't have it, difficult dealing with systems not accepting APO addresses. The money's been sitting in PayPal for 6 months. My PP debit card expired and PP's system was all screwed and even though it's supposed to accept APO addresses for mailing it wasn't working until yesterday so I won't have my card for a couple of weeks. None of that really matters though since JBL's system won't accept APO addresses. I had to change my billing and shipping addresses to my APObox (that company in Jersey) shipping address temporarily so I could do this. 

It was an interesting workaround but it's done now. 



> I'm hoping the MS-8 is all that Andy says it is.


If it's not, just one more thing for the classifieds.


----------



## michaelsil1

quality_sound said:


> If it's not, just one more thing for the classifieds.



I'll have to get a deal so I don't end up eating my shorts.


----------



## CobraVin

quality_sound said:


> or use my APObox address is Jersey (6%) so I went with the lesser of two evils. Now it's just a waiting game.
> 
> :rockon::rockon::rockon::rockon::rockon::rockon:


7% tax in Jersey, just so you know


----------



## vactor

CobraVin said:


> 7% tax in Jersey, just so you know


 lucky. 10.25% in chicago


----------



## quality_sound

CobraVin said:


> 7% tax in Jersey, just so you know


Eh, my point was really that I shouldn't be paying ANY sales tax since I'm not even stationed in the US right now.


----------



## kkant

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I know, I know...ask for a quarter, get a dollar...


Not at all, more info is welcome. Thanks for the post.

Sounds like many factors are involved in the frequency, Q, and dispersion characteristics of the peak. But it also seems that the use of a dedicated midrange with steep slopes can allow you to avoid this problem entirely.

One other thing. In your previous post, you mentioned that the really bad peaks are the ones which only show up on-axis. But in your last post you seemed to imply that the worst peaks are those that spread off axis. Isn't the former the worse problem, from the EQ's perspective?


----------



## avtexan

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> First batch is scheduled to be completed today. Those go for outgoing quality inspection. Then they go on a plane. Next Friday, another batch is completed and some of those go on a plane for advance incoming quality inspection in the US warehouse. The delivery date to us depends on US Customs and shipping from the port to the warehouse. Once inspection is done and an appropriate number of units have passed, they go on the UPS truck to eager enthusiasts who have pre-ordered. The rest come to us on a boat.
> 
> Quality inspection takes about 4 days depending on the batch size. I don't know precisely when they'll be available to ship to you guys, but they're coming...


Andy,

I have ordered the new 2011 Infiniti M56 Sport. It has a Bose 16 speaker system {(2) 3-ways in front, (2) 2-ways rear, (1) center, (1) sub, (4) head rest speakers}. 

I am looking to upgrade the amps and speakers as soon as I get it. I have been looking at the Audio Control and Audison units but the MS-8 looks like a nice fit. Do you have any suggestions on how to use the MS-8 in a system for this particular car?


----------



## tornaido_3927

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yo Quality,
> I'm working on it. Seriously, I'll have a suggestion in the next couple of days...just need to get on a plane...


Yay! 

We only keep asking because we are anxious to see this awesome thing in our countries!

I'm sure everyone OS is appreciative of your efforts Andy, and are jealous that the US gets the goods first!


----------



## Sassmastersq

Does it eat rainbows and **** marshmallows yet???


----------



## VP Electricity

Kids, this is as rare as a great white elk - a rude Canadian! (Unless he's French Canadian, in which case, go back to sleep, kids). 


Saw one Monday night at my JBL distributor. My order is placed.


----------



## 14642

Sassmastersq said:


> Does it eat rainbows and **** marshmallows yet???


 
Hey sassmaster,
I've put up with your garbage for who knows how long. Gimme a break. The product is on the way. 

NO SOUP FOR YOU!


----------



## ibanzil

^^^ I know for damn sure it's faster than imprint. Imprint could take more than 30 minutes from start to finish and you had to keep coming back to move the mic and hit start again and again.

As far as what it's doing when working it's majic, I too am wondering what exactly differentiates the ms8 from how imprint works, besides the binaural mic setup.

I'm not cometely sure but, maybe the 512 bands was some marketing help. Perhaps the 512 bands of eq were all the channels added together?


----------



## VP Electricity

ibanzil said:


> ^^^ I know for damn sure it's faster than imprint. Imprint could take more than 30 minutes from start to finish and you had to keep coming back to move the mic and hit start again and again.


660 is SUPPOSED to be much faster than 650 to setup...


----------



## t3sn4f2

ibanzil said:


> ^^^ I know for damn sure it's faster than imprint. Imprint could take more than 30 minutes from start to finish and you had to keep coming back to move the mic and hit start again and again.
> 
> *As far as what it's doing when working it's majic, I too am wondering what exactly differentiates the ms8 from how imprint works, besides the binaural mic setup.
> 
> I'm not cometely sure but, maybe the 512 bands was some marketing help. Perhaps the 512 bands of eq were all the channels added together*?



"6. The automatic equalizers are completely different. The Alpine uses a 512-tap filter, which also equalizes phase and sets time alignment. It also includes some spatial averaging for multiple microphone placements (6). When you equalize with the Alipine, the first microphone placement sets the time alignment and the rest of the placements are used to smooth the frequency response over most of the car's interior. Multitap filters that operate in real time are a relatively new possibility. In years past, multitap filters in real time were only a hope, since there weren't many microprocessors that could process all that information quickly enough. The benefits of usiing a multitap filter are that they can be very precise and they equalize phase as well as magnitude since they operate on the impulse response measurement. For one tiny point in space, they can also eliminate the sound of plenty of reflections, but their ability to do that accurately diminishes in larger listening areas, since the effects of reflections at high frequencies can be very different even a few inches away from the original microphone position. The other important thing to note about multitap filters is that the 512 "bands" are distributed in a linear fashion rather than logarithmically. That means the resolution is fixed across the audio band. 512 taps gives you roughly 40 Hz resolution. That means you get 2 adjustment bands between 20 and 100Hz and 25 bands between 10k and 20k. Multitap filters, by default place more adjustment possibilities in the high frequencies than in the low frequencies because of the linear distribution of those "bands". That's the only drawback. The Alipine allows you to select from several target curves for adjustment after the automatic setup.

One more note about multitap: They are the shiznit for headphone EQ, because the "listening space" is fixed. With multitap EQ, you can add the reflective properties of a completely different space and transform the listening area to a completely believable representation of a much larger space. With speakers, that isn't possible yet because both of your ears hear both speakers and moving your head helps you determine the location of sounds (just like when your dog cocks his head when he hears a sound he doesn't recognize--we do the same thing, it just doesn't look so ridiculous).

MS-8's EQ is different. We also use a spatial average, but we use a binaural measurement system and 3 mic positions PER LISTENING POSITION. That gives us 6 measurements per seat for each of the 8 channels plus a time alignment adjustment for each seat. Once the setup is done, you can choose an optimization for any seating position and switch between them. For frequency response EQ, we make standard frequency response measurements, eliminate the phase measurement, average the measurements), calculate the phase response of the average, turn the measurement into an impulse response measurement, apply 8 biquads (filters) to the impulse response according to the target curve and the crossover settings using a very complicated and sneaky algorithm that I can't divulge because we're applying for a patent. The result is a VERY powerful EQ that can be implemented on a relatively inexpensive DSP for each channel and leave plenty of space to use the same algorithm on the eletrical signal of the MS-8's input for flattening of the input signal. The distribution of the bands is logarithmic and makes a completely adjustable target curve easy to implement and accurate. Each speaker location is equalized separately and, because of the spatial average, the acoustic sum of the channels matches the target curve. Once setup is complete, you can fine tune the car using a 31-band drawing tool. You draw the curve you want to hear and the MS-8 implements it and allows you to audition your changes vs. no EQ and vs. the automatic implementation of the predefined target.

_________________
Andy Wehmeyer
Product Marketing Manager
Harman Consumer Group
Mobile Systems Division"


----------



## 60ndown

hey andy W,

if we took two identical cars, with identical speaker locations, one car has expensive drivers and amps, the other car has more modest drivers and amps, but the same size and locations.

both cars run the ms-8

and it does its magic. (auto tune eq, T.A etc etc)


can you predict the difference (or similarity) in the end result?


----------



## VP Electricity

60ndown said:


> hey andy W,
> 
> if we took two identical cars, with identical speaker locations, one car has expensive drivers and amps, the other car has more modest drivers and amps, but the same size and locations.
> 
> both cars run the ms-8
> 
> and it does its magic. (auto tune eq, T.A etc etc)
> 
> 
> can you predict the difference (or similarity) in the end result?


I'm not Andy W...

But hasn't this been done, in that the BMW OE Logic 7 system has speakers and amps, and the JBL BMW had better amps and speakers, but same locations, and had Logic 7?


----------



## 14642

60ndown said:


> hey andy W,
> 
> if we took two identical cars, with identical speaker locations, one car has expensive drivers and amps, the other car has more modest drivers and amps, but the same size and locations.
> 
> both cars run the ms-8
> 
> and it does its magic. (auto tune eq, T.A etc etc)
> 
> 
> can you predict the difference (or similarity) in the end result?


They'll sound basically the same, so long are the drivers are roughly the same configurations...unless the expensive speakers are really crappy. Then, the system with cheap speakers and amps will sound better.


----------



## lycan

t3sn4f2 said:


> "6. The automatic equalizers are completely different. The Alpine uses a 512-tap filter, which also equalizes phase and sets time alignment. It also includes some spatial averaging for multiple microphone placements (6). When you equalize with the Alipine, the first microphone placement sets the time alignment and the rest of the placements are used to smooth the frequency response over most of the car's interior. Multitap filters that operate in real time are a relatively new possibility. In years past, multitap filters in real time were only a hope, since there weren't many microprocessors that could process all that information quickly enough. The benefits of usiing a multitap filter are that they can be very precise and they equalize phase as well as magnitude since they operate on the impulse response measurement. For one tiny point in space, they can also eliminate the sound of plenty of reflections, but their ability to do that accurately diminishes in larger listening areas, since the effects of reflections at high frequencies can be very different even a few inches away from the original microphone position. The other important thing to note about multitap filters is that the 512 "bands" are distributed in a linear fashion rather than logarithmically. That means the resolution is fixed across the audio band. 512 taps gives you roughly 40 Hz resolution. That means you get 2 adjustment bands between 20 and 100Hz and 25 bands between 10k and 20k. Multitap filters, by default place more adjustment possibilities in the high frequencies than in the low frequencies because of the linear distribution of those "bands". That's the only drawback. The Alipine allows you to select from several target curves for adjustment after the automatic setup.


don't wanna piss in anybody's cheerios, but there's a lot of bad info in this post about FIR filters. A few corrections, if i may :

1. The number of taps in an FIR is certainly indicative of frequency resolution, it is true. But there is _not_ a one-to-one correspondence between "taps" and "bands". In an FIR filter, _all_ taps contribute to _all_ frequencies.

2. FIR filters can be designed for perfectly linear phase response (they don't have to have perfectly linear phase, but it's unique to FIR ... vs. IIR ... that they _can_ have linear phase), but they don't "equalize" phase anymore than IIR filters do. Both types of filters ... FIR and IIR ... have magnitude & phase responses. Phase compensation (or equalization) can be done with either type of filter.

3. Both FIR & IIR filters operate on "impulses". Any signal is nothing but a linear combination of weighted & delayed impulses, and _any_ filter therefore operates on "impulses". In fact, the complete frequency response (mag & phase) of _any_ filter is nothing but the Fourier Transform of its _impulse response_.

4. FIR filters are arguably _worse_ than IIR filters at equalizing reflections. The reason is that reflections cause a _zero_ in the transfer function, and _zeros_ are more readily "compensated" by _poles_ ... which are present in IIR structures  but not FIR structures  (except at the origin). Nonetheless, I don't recommend attempting too much compensation of reflections ... with _either_ structure.

5. FIR filters have a couple advantages over IIR : the possibility of perfectly linear phase and complete freedom from a nasty feedback-induced quantization instability known as _limit cycles_. But the computation burden is large (as noted above), except in rate-changing applications like interpolation and decimation. Also, the coefficient precision required can be signifcant ... FIR's tend to rely on _subtraction_ for cancellation or attenuation, whereas IIR's tend to rely on _division_.

6. Alpine is _not_ the first to offer FIR filters for the car market ... although they _may_ be the first to offer FIR with some type of auto-EQ. The Pioneer ODR stuff uses FIR, as did the flagship Sony EQ of several years ago.

OK, that's it for now


----------



## VP Electricity

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> They'll sound basically the same, so long are the drivers are roughly the same configurations...unless the expensive speakers are really crappy. Then, the system with cheap speakers and amps will sound better.


This doesn't seem to jive with the BMW Logic 7 and JBL MS-8 Logic 7 example...


----------



## 14642

Thanks Lycan. The main point I was attempting to make and I should have stuck to the basics is that much of the "power' of the EQ is devoted to high frequencies, that a 512 tap filter doesn't provide great resolution at low frequencies and that the computation is intensive.


----------



## 14642

VP Electricity said:


> This doesn't seem to jive with the BMW Logic 7 and JBL MS-8 Logic 7 example...


 
It isn't a valid example--or it isn't what 60 was writing about. The BMW in question used the same speakers before and after and the tuning with the factory is different than MS-8 and so are the L7 settings.


----------



## DAT

Has the release date been posted yet?


----------



## lycan

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Thanks Lycan. The main point I was attempting to make and I should have stuck to the basics is that much of the "power' of the EQ is devoted to high frequencies, that a 512 tap filter doesn't provide great resolution at low frequencies and that the computation is intensive.


just keepn you guys honest 

be here all week


----------



## 60ndown

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> They'll sound basically the same, so long are the drivers are roughly the same configurations...unless the expensive speakers are really crappy. Then, the system with cheap speakers and amps will sound better.


lol and thanks


----------



## DS-21

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Thanks Lycan. The main point I was attempting to make and I should have stuck to the basics is that much of the "power' of the EQ is devoted to high frequencies, that a 512 tap filter doesn't provide great resolution at low frequencies and that the computation is intensive.


Audyssey claims, though, that their taps don't have a linear distribution. According to their website, the MultEQ XT has 8x the resolution in the bass than above the bass.

What that means, honestly, no idea here. I'll defer to you guys.


----------



## donkeypunch22

Sassmastersq said:


> Does it eat rainbows and **** marshmallows yet???


Oh, Sassmaster is here to eat a fat D!(K...

Yo, did French Canada get its independence yet? Oh, wait, no one still gives a sh!+...


----------



## donkeypunch22

lycan said:


> don't wanna piss in anybody's cheerios, but there's a lot of bad info in this post about FIR filters. A few corrections, if i may :
> 
> 1. The number of taps in an FIR is certainly indicative of frequency resolution, it is true. But there is _not_ a one-to-one correspondence between "taps" and "bands". In an FIR filter, _all_ taps contribute to _all_ frequencies.
> 
> 2. FIR filters can be designed for perfectly linear phase response (they don't have to have perfectly linear phase, but it's unique to FIR ... vs. IIR ... that they _can_ have linear phase), but they don't "equalize" phase anymore than IIR filters do. Both types of filters ... FIR and IIR ... have magnitude & phase responses. Phase compensation (or equalization) can be done with either type of filter.
> 
> 3. Both FIR & IIR filters operate on "impulses". Any signal is nothing but a linear combination of weighted & delayed impulses, and _any_ filter therefore operates on "impulses". In fact, the complete frequency response (mag & phase) of _any_ filter is nothing but the Fourier Transform of its _impulse response_.
> 
> 4. FIR filters are arguably _worse_ than IIR filters at equalizing reflections. The reason is that reflections cause a _zero_ in the transfer function, and _zeros_ are more readily "compensated" by _poles_ ... which are present in IIR structures  but not FIR structures  (except at the origin). Nonetheless, I don't recommend attempting too much compensation of reflections ... with _either_ structure.
> 
> 5. FIR filters have a couple advantages over IIR : the possibility of perfectly linear phase and complete freedom from a nasty feedback-induced quantization instability known as _limit cycles_. But the computation burden is large (as noted above), except in rate-changing applications like interpolation and decimation. Also, the coefficient precision required can be signifcant ... FIR's tend to rely on _subtraction_ for cancellation or attenuation, whereas IIR's tend to rely on _division_.
> 
> 6. Alpine is _not_ the first to offer FIR filters for the car market ... although they _may_ be the first to offer FIR with some type of auto-EQ. The Pioneer ODR stuff uses FIR, as did the flagship Sony EQ of several years ago.
> 
> OK, that's it for now


Dude, what the... That is some wicked shiza you posted right there.


----------



## t3sn4f2

lycan said:


> don't wanna piss in anybody's cheerios, but there's a lot of bad info in this post about FIR filters. A few corrections, if i may :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, that's it for now


Cleaned it up a little for ya!


----------



## 14642

DS-21 said:


> Audyssey claims, though, that their taps don't have a linear distribution. According to their website, the MultEQ XT has 8x the resolution in the bass than above the bass.
> 
> What that means, honestly, no idea here. I'll defer to you guys.


 
I'm not a DSP engineer, so I'm going to keep this on a really basic level so I don't get Lycan's hot poker of truth in the a$$ again. 

There is a fairly recent development that makes it pretty easy to divide those taps across frequency bands, perform separate convolutions and then connect the bands together again. If I'm not mistaken, it's often referred to as "Fast Convolution". We're working on another processor that would use this technique for an even simpler device. There's nothing inherently wrong with using multitap FIRs, so long as compromises are managed in a way that keeps cost and latency in line. To be blunt about it, the method doesn't matter so much as the result. For all DSP, the algorithm is much more important than the device on which it runs and on which tools are used by the algorithm. The IC is the hardware, the filters are the tools and the set of rules (the algorithm) by which the device decides how those tools are used are the real meat of any DSP-based solution. The best way to determine the appropriateness of the solution is to analyze the result of using it. If the result falls short, then an analysis of the algorithm, the the tools and the choice of hardware can be useful in designing something else or changing the design. 

The day that someone tells me that the pins on a TI 7xx have to be gold plated in order for the product to be considered high end might be the day that I look for work in another industry.

Hmmm...maybe I should be careful about what I write...


----------



## lycan

Hey guys, didn't mean to cause a fuss  When I get a chance i'll look into the tap distribution claim and see if it has any merit for increased resolution at lower frequencies. But what Andy wrote is true, there are ways to "divide and conquer" 

On a related note, any "adpative" signal processing (which may include auto EQ or room correction) that uses some form of "feedback" measurements to adjust filter parameters is really _much_ easier to implement with FIR filters than IIR. The reason is that even the smallest "quirks" in the adaptive algorithm can un-intentionally drive the IIR structure _unstable_  FIR filters, on the other hand, can _never_ become unstable. In the field of signal processing, adaptive algorithms are _much_ more fully developed for FIR filters. But Andy has correctly pointed out the downsides : more computation required, and lower resolution in the bass ... unless some fancy nonlinear tap distribution algorithms are applied. I'll check.


----------



## 14642

No fuss created. Thanks for the clarification. I'm happy that someone can provide better info when I'm wrong. Sometimes the long tail of information that never goes away is unfortunate because we can never be smarter than the stupidest thing we've ever written...


----------



## rcurley55

Andy, there's been a lot of talk about the E9X factory systems with the MS-8. What about the E46 H/K system?

I've currently ditched the whole setup (Dyn 162GTs and 102s in the doors up front, 4 8iB4s on the rear shelf), but was wondering how that stock system would perform using the MS-8. The system for the coupe is a tweeter and small midrange high in the doors, midbass low in the front door, tweeter in the rear "door panel" and rear midbass on the rear shelf.

Without a center channel, am I better off just leaving the aftermarket stuff (2 way up front and subs in the rear) or going back to the factor stuff and adding a simple sub?


----------



## DS-21

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> To be blunt about it, the method doesn't matter so much as the result.


Agreed.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The day that someone tells me that the pins on a TI 7xx have to be gold plated in order for the product to be considered high end might be the day that I look for work in another industry.


Gold-plating is mid-fi. The product won't be high end unless the chips' pins are rhodium-plated. And cryogenically conditioned before attachment.


----------



## ErinH

DS-21 said:


> And cryogenically conditioned before attachment.


exactly. can't have a good conductor unless it's been dipped in a cryo bath.


----------



## 14642

DS-21 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> Gold-plating is mid-fi. The product won't be high end unless the chips' pins are rhodium-plated. And cryogenically conditioned before attachment.


That's it. I'm done. I'm almost certain that Home Depot or Lowes will hire me to sell mulch.


----------



## fish

Say I have 4 midbass drivers - one in each door - two midbasses in parallel to one channel.

Will the MS-8 be able to do it's thing with time correction since the two drivers on the same channel are in different locations?


----------



## rommelrommel

Any progress on international orders?


----------



## dbiegel

To overcome the low frequency drawbacks of FIR filters, the resolution of MultEQ's FIR filters varies continuously with frequency, starting at around 10hz. If I remember correctly, it actually has 1/24 octave resolution or better up to around 90hz.

I also believe that the filters used on the subwoofer output are specifically designed to provide all 512 taps at low frequencies (<500hz) only. I haven't confirmed that, however.


----------



## lycan

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sometimes the long tail of information that never goes away is unfortunate because we can never be smarter than the stupidest thing we've ever written...


truer words have never been spoken ... er um, written.

fear not good sir, i know you're smarter than the stupidest thing you ever wrote  But then again ... that may carry little weight, from someone who has written some pretty stupid stuff in his day


----------



## rain27

Andy,
What is your opinion on the lowest frequency a tweeter should play at when installed far from the midbass in a 2way set up? There is some debate that a tweeter should not be played lower than 4k if the mid is low in the door and the tweeter is in the sail panel, a pillar, or dash.

When setting the xover on the MS-8, I'd like to what limits to be mindful of.


----------



## t3sn4f2

rain27 said:


> *Andy,
> What is your opinion on the lowest frequency a tweeter should play at when installed far from the midbass in a 2way set up? There is some debate that a tweeter should not be played lower than 4k if the mid is low in the door and the tweeter is in the sail panel, a pillar, or dash.*
> When setting the xover on the MS-8, I'd like to what limits to be mindful of.


Not Andy, but here's a good debate on that subject

Post #43-#106


----------



## 14642

rain27 said:


> Andy,
> What is your opinion on the lowest frequency a tweeter should play at when installed far from the midbass in a 2way set up? There is some debate that a tweeter should not be played lower than 4k if the mid is low in the door and the tweeter is in the sail panel, a pillar, or dash.
> 
> When setting the xover on the MS-8, I'd like to what limits to be mindful of.


Depends on how big the midbass driver is. If it's a 6", then 2kHz or even lower is helpful in trying to keep the low pass for the midrange as low as possible so it won't be used where the dispersion is narrow. That'll give you better similarity between the on-axis and off axis frequency response. If it's a standard 1" tweeter driven by lots of power, then that's not a wise choice because you'll probably blow it up. Choosing the crossover is a matter of driver safety first, directivity and a match to the next smallest driver second, and trying to shape the response third. IF you have an EQ, then that's the better tool for response shaping if moving the crossover around compromises the first to criteria. 


I think the winner of the debate mentioned above should be the person who has most vehemently argued against the suggestion.


----------



## MattyKHZ

I think I am going to have to get the Audison Bit One as my install is looming here in the UK and still no word on when or if the MS-8 will be aviailable here.

All I want is an OEM integration processor so maybe the MS-8 is more than I need with Logic 7, centre channels etc....


----------



## quality_sound

If all you want is OEM integration get a Cleansweep.


----------



## MattyKHZ

OEM and SQ is what I am after which I believe is what the Audison Bit One was providing once all the bugs had been ironed out.

Reading the whole of this thread it seems that Logic 7 and centre channel usage is what the MS-8 is all about. Unless I am wrong.

I am wanting to get the best out of my Denon amps and MB Quart speakers in a 3 way active set up from my OEM HU in R56 Mini Cooper S. As the MS-8 will probably not be over here this summer with US probably getting the first allocation I would have to look elsewhere and Audison seem to offer everything I need and be available.


----------



## 14642

Sorry for the delay.

For those of you in the EU who are hoping for an MS-8 and who have emailed me your contact info, please expect an email early this week from someone in our office in Amsterdam. I've made arrangements for them to contact each of you and figure out the best way to get you a unit when their first shipment arrives. 

I'm stuck in Europe under a cloud of volcanic ash and have booked a ride back to New York on the back of a sea turtle.


----------



## 14642

MattyKHZ said:


> OEM and SQ is what I am after which I believe is what the Audison Bit One was providing once all the bugs had been ironed out.
> 
> Reading the whole of this thread it seems that Logic 7 and centre channel usage is what the MS-8 is all about. Unless I am wrong.
> 
> I am wanting to get the best out of my Denon amps and MB Quart speakers in a 3 way active set up from my OEM HU in R56 Mini Cooper S. As the MS-8 will probably not be over here this summer with US probably getting the first allocation I would have to look elsewhere and Audison seem to offer everything I need and be available.


I'd say that L7 and its center channel processing are a big bonis, but the fundamental advantage of MS-8 is the signal summing and conditioning and the auto EQ. The BitOne is a great piece of gear too. If you're a good tuner, you'll be able to make the car sound good. If you're not, the MS-8 is the tool for you.

Basic signal summing and un-EQ for the factory signal is one VERY small part of the chain. There's nothing very important about getting a flat signal from the head unit unless you're also running a process that requires a flat, in-phase signal. Furthermore, simple analog summing is an insuffieicnt solution. The output signals from many factory systems include delay, which will cause comb filtering in the summed signal. Is that a big deal? Depends on how low the first part of the "comb" is. If it's in the midrange, then it may be a big deal. MS-8 fixes that by eliminating the relative delay.

Matt,
Obviously, I'd like you to have an MS-8 and you'll get an email this week from our office in Amsterdam, but I also understand that delivery timing is a big part of your decision. Over the course of the last 3 or 4 years I've helped several people here and on the carsound forum choose the best alternative because they couldn't wait any longer. If you can't wait any longer, I suggest choosing an alternative based on whether you have an RTA (or have access to one) and whether you're good at tuning cars. If you are, the BitOne is the right way to go. If you're not and you can't wait any longer, get the Alpine.


----------



## 14642

fish said:


> Say I have 4 midbass drivers - one in each door - two midbasses in parallel to one channel.
> 
> Will the MS-8 be able to do it's thing with time correction since the two drivers on the same channel are in different locations?


I assume you meant 2 in each door. Yes, MS-8 will work with this configuration. It'll time align accourding to the nearest speaker--it searches the impulse response for the initial peak--which will be fine.


----------



## MattyKHZ

Thanks for the response Andy.

Forgot you would be caught up in this airport chaos this side of the pond.

Hopefully I will get the email next week and progress from there. I am getting the install done professionally and from someone who uses the Bit One and sells at a good price so I would have been happy with that but if the MS-8 is viable in terms of price and shipment date then that is still what I would want.

Then once I know dates I can hopefully get my car booked in.

I did try getting in touch with JBL in the UK but links on your website do not seem to work for external contacts. I did google and come accross JBL in the UK so fired an email off to them as well.


----------



## n_olympios

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm stuck in Europe under a cloud of volcanic ash and have booked a ride back to New York on the back of a sea turtle.


Travel south by train, I'm sure you'll be able to get home faster that way. We haven't had any ash (yet).


----------



## fish

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I assume you meant 2 in each door. Yes, MS-8 will work with this configuration. It'll time align accourding to the nearest speaker--it searches the impulse response for the initial peak--which will be fine.


I had asked you the question about dual midbass in EACH door about a year ago, & you said it would work.

This question is in regards to 4 midbass, 1 in each door of a sedan. 

I know this would probably be stretching it, just wanted to know for sure before I was past the point of no return.


----------



## thebetaproject

MattyKHZ said:


> I think I am going to have to get the Audison Bit One as my install is looming here in the UK and still no word on when or if the MS-8 will be aviailable here.


I'm in the same boat with the bit one vs MS-8, so gave JBL UK a call this week. Spoke to sales but they have no dates, no price and no demo/test car. I really want to listen to the MS-8 before splashing the cash and entering the world of pain with RTA and the bit one.


----------



## 14642

thebetaproject said:


> I'm in the same boat with the bit one vs MS-8, so gave JBL UK a call this week. Spoke to sales but they have no dates, no price and no demo/test car. I really want to listen to the MS-8 before splashing the cash and entering the world of pain with RTA and the bit one.


Betaproject,
PM me your email and I'll put you in touch with someone in the headquarters in Amsterdam if you're interested.


----------



## 14642

fish said:


> I had asked you the question about dual midbass in EACH door about a year ago, & you said it would work.
> 
> This question is in regards to 4 midbass, 1 in each door of a sedan.
> 
> I know this would probably be stretching it, just wanted to know for sure before I was past the point of no return.


Sure, it'll work. If you're going to use L7, I'd cross the rears over at about 100Hz 4th order, but even that's no big deal.


----------



## 14642

Oh, wait. If you mean a midbass in the front door and the back door connected to the same amp channel? I wouldn't do this.


----------



## fish

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Oh, wait. If you mean a midbass in the front door and the back door connected to the same amp channel? I wouldn't do this.


Yes, that is what I meant. Thankyou sir.


----------



## western47

Andy,

Do you feel that any difference would be heard between a factory deck and an aftermarket. I know that the MS-8 was made to interface with a factory deck but is that the optimal solution?

Just want to make sure before I place some old decks on the block.


----------



## miker104

Anyone interested interested in a great price for the ms8 get in contact with me [email protected] Wont have prices till end of the week but it will be worth it. My ebay name for reference is mikereese1 

thanks Mike


----------



## 6spdcoupe

Wow, lol given enough rope ..


----------



## Horsemanwill

miker104 said:


> Anyone interested interested in a great price for the ms8 get in contact with me [email protected] Wont have prices till end of the week but it will be worth it. My ebay name for reference is mikereese1
> 
> thanks Mike


wow hope andy sees this


----------



## miker104

Horsemanwill said:


> wow hope andy sees this


I hope he see's it to.. :0


----------



## AdamS

Horsemanwill said:


> wow hope andy sees this


He's seen it. But he's in EU stranded. Just drove 1000 miles to get to an airport that he *might* be able to fly out of.


----------



## quality_sound

miker104 said:


> I hope he see's it to.. :0


Is this supposed to be English?


----------



## quality_sound

AdamS said:


> He's seen it. But he's in EU stranded. Just drove 1000 miles to get to an airport that he *might* be able to fly out of.


All flights are moving again so he can get out anywhere it's getting through the backlog of passengers. 

It doubly blows for us since we can't mail anything out until the 27th and everything that's supposed to come to us is sitting in Jersey. Yay us.


----------



## 6spdcoupe

quality_sound said:


> All flights are moving again so he can get out anywhere it's getting through the backlog of passengers.
> 
> It doubly blows for us since we can't mail anything out until the 27th and everything that's supposed to come to us is sitting in Jersey. Yay us.


Did ya say Jersey ?


----------



## quality_sound

Why yes, yes I did. I have a big ole box of goodies from Zapco just itching to get here (so I can turn around and sell them ) and it'll probably be at least a week before I see it.


----------



## 6spdcoupe

Well just for you I can put em to good use here since there close by.


----------



## miker104

quality_sound said:


> Is this supposed to be English?


nope spanish!!


----------



## quality_sound

6spdcoupe said:


> Well just for you I can put em to good use here since there close by.



Awwwwww, thanks Don! :heart::lips:


----------



## Houstonshark

So, I'm guessing no end user has a MS-8 yet? If I missed an official ship date in the past few pages I'm sorry.

Miker104, I can't say that offering to sell the MS-8 on here or on eBay is the smartest approach. If you are a dealer, this is a sure way to get cut off. If you are not a dealer then it is a good way to get your dealer or wherever you are getting them in hot water. I'm pretty sure all serial numbers will be tracked.


----------



## miker104

Houstonshark said:


> So, I'm guessing no end user has a MS-8 yet? If I missed an official ship date in the past few pages I'm sorry.
> 
> Miker104, I can't say that offering to sell the MS-8 on here or on eBay is the smartest approach. If you are a dealer, this is a sure way to get cut off. If you are not a dealer then it is a good way to get your dealer or wherever you are getting them in hot water. I'm pretty sure all serial numbers will be tracked.


I am not a dealer, but will be purchased from a dealer for full price and sold to you guy's at a discount. I have a 6600.00 dollar store credit that I cant get the cash back on.. So I will take a loss to recoupe my money.. Anyway's thanks for your concerns.. Mike


----------



## Wheres The Butta

I'm 99.9% sure that guy was just messing you you all... I was laughing about it until i realized you took the bait hook line and sinker. You've gotta work on that troll radar. There's no way somebody would post here selling that if they knew the population here. Rest easy, it's just a troll.


----------



## miker104

bd5034 said:


> I'm 99.9% sure that guy was just messing you you all... I was laughing about it until i realized you took the bait hook line and sinker. You've gotta work on that troll radar. There's no way somebody would post here selling that if they knew the population here. Rest easy, it's just a troll.


You so smart.. well go ahead and pay your 799.99 and enjoy your unit.. Yes I have read the thread and know who post's in here.. I even got a message from the production manager wanting all the info. Not a troll and last I checked I dont think I am doing something wrong here. Oh and if anyone want's the Bitone.1 I can also get those for a great price. Everyone who has emailed me Trust me you will be getting your's just as soon as I find out alittle bit more info. thanks again.. Mike 

What a laugh you are off by only .1%


----------



## miker104

miker104 said:


> You so smart.. well go ahead and pay your 799.99 and enjoy your unit.. Yes I have read the thread and know who post's in here.. I even got a message from the production manager wanting all the info. Not a troll and last I checked I dont think I am doing something wrong here. Oh and if anyone want's the Bitone.1 I can also get those for a great price. Everyone who has emailed me Trust me you will be getting your's just as soon as I find out alittle bit more info. thanks again.. Mike
> 
> What a laugh you are off by only .1%


oh yea if you want to check up on me contact phildog33 on here. I got him a bit1.1 focal speakers and some other goodies at a great price.. and shipped it following day to new york..


----------



## Horsemanwill

actually what your doing is wrong it's called transshipping and anyone who recieves a product from you wont' have a warrenty on it because it's against the rules of the specific company.


----------



## miker104

Horsemanwill said:


> actually what your doing is wrong it's called transshipping and anyone who recieves a product from you wont' have a warrenty on it because it's against the rules of the specific company.


So let me get this right, Your saying it is wrong to buy something for 799.99 and sell it for less money?


----------



## Horsemanwill

i really doubt your gonna take a "loss" like your saying. what i'm saying is wrong is what your doing is called transshipping. which is something that is killing the car audio industry.


----------



## miker104

Horsemanwill said:


> i really doubt your gonna take a "loss" like your saying. what i'm saying is wrong is what your doing is called transshipping. which is something that is killing the car audio industry.


Then go buy your's for 799.99. And yes I am taking a loss, you know what they say about "Assume"


----------



## Horsemanwill

i don't need to go buy one i'm happy with my P-01. and i never assumed anything.

let's just say ppl in the industry that deal with pacific stereo is watching .


----------



## miker104

Horsemanwill said:


> i don't need to go buy one i'm happy with my P-01. and i never assumed anything.
> 
> let's just say ppl in the industry that deal with pacific stereo is watching .


Thank's for the warning. Actually there coming from N.Y. Wrong coast... thanks anyway.. Mike


----------



## quality_sound

Horsemanwill said:


> i really doubt your gonna take a "loss" like your saying. what i'm saying is wrong is what your doing is called transshipping. which is something that is killing the car audio industry.


He is not transshipping. Would it be transshipping if you went to Best Buy, bought a dozen iPods and sold them for $10 each? 

That's not to say I'm willing to drop $800 on someone with 14 posts, but he's not doing anything even remotely illegal. Being a first run product with a receipt in someone else's name wouldn't give me the warm fuzzies either. I'll pay retail for the peace of mind.


----------



## Horsemanwill

i don't know what ipod's rule on sales is but i do know companies like audison and i think jbl too are against it. transshipping is the act of selling a product and shipping it to a location that is not in your sales area. if he is buying the product from a store that is selling them sideways and they know he is shipping them out, why else would someone buy mulitples of the same product, then they are in breech of their contract. it also voids warrenty. as the warrenty on the products is for the original purchaser.


----------



## 6spdcoupe

miker104 said:


> Thank's for the warning. Actually there coming from N.Y. Wrong coast... thanks anyway.. Mike


So you have had a 'credit' with a dealer across the nation in NY for nearly a year now ? Interesting ..


----------



## quality_sound

It's transshipping to sell it sideways to ANOTHER DEALER. Selling it to another consumer is fine.


----------



## Horsemanwill

selling it sideways to a "consumer" who's reselling it. that doesn't make them a consumer that makes them a seller.


----------



## quality_sound

lol...no, it really doesn't.


----------



## Horsemanwill

so then what is it? you have a guy who's buying 800 dollar processors and sellin them cheaper taking a loss? and to those ppl who buy it that won't have a warrenty or anything will blame the manufact if something goes wrong.


----------



## DAT

Wow this is getting interesting...


----------



## miker104

Done talking about it.. If you have emailed me or need to email me. I will let you know when I have the final price for you.. if you dont want one from me then dont buy it.. Mike 

Yes I have 14 post but well over 300 ebay feedback's with 100% positive feedback. and if you live locally you can come by and pick it up and not pay any shipping.. Mike 

The rest of you pay 799.99 and enjoy.. Mike 

And yes this is really me losing(recouping) my money from a credit.. The reason I picked the ms8 is because it is the hottest new item coming out and knew I would get my money back quick.. Mike


----------



## Miguel mac

miker104 said:


> Done talking about it.. If you have emailed me or need to email me. I will let you know when I have the final price for you.. if you dont want one from me then dont buy it.. Mike
> 
> Yes I have 14 post but well over 300 ebay feedback's with 100% positive feedback. and if you live locally you can come by and pick it up and not pay any shipping.. Mike
> 
> The rest of you pay 799.99 and enjoy.. Mike
> 
> And yes this is really me losing(recouping) my money from a credit.. The reason I picked the ms8 is because it is the hottest new item coming out and knew I would get my money back quick.. Mike


I'm very interested , if you can sell on ebay THROUGH


----------



## bassfromspace

Horsemanwill said:


> so then what is it? you have a guy who's buying 800 dollar processors and sellin them cheaper taking a loss? and to those ppl who buy it that won't have a warrenty or anything will blame the manufact if something goes wrong.


If that was the case, the classifieds would be shut down. We're all transshippers?


----------



## ItalynStylion

bassfromspace said:


> If that was the case, the classifieds would be shut down. We're all transshippers?


<<< Guilty as charged. And the products were *USED*


----------



## 60ndown

ive never seen anyone get ripped off on the internet ( / sarcasm)

if it seems too good to be true ?

buyers beware imo.

this thread has generated a lot of hoopla, only takes a small bunch of excited foolish peeps to make a nice deposit on a house for a fraudster.

if a sale comes up on e bay and all looks legit thats another deal

post up the link to the e bay sales.

but sending someone $$$ via pm/paypal/credit card because they say their *special* is foolish.

BEWARE


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

miker104,

Here is what I say. Talk to Andy about it first, if your for real, Ask him and Ant, the owner of Diyma about doing a small group buy with a limit number of units, as many as you can get for your money. 

If they go for it:blush: (which is highly unlike on JBL's part, but we can wish), you paying full price for the units via your credit you say you have. 

The store makes its money or in this case keeps its money, JBL makes their money, you get some of your money back, at a lost as you say and a few lucky DIYMA members get an MS-8 at a great price and JBL knows about the transactions and just maybe will give the people whom are lucky enough to get a unit a warranty of some sort.

Just my 2 pennies.

IF NOT I ALSO SAY BEWARE!

NOW BACK ON TOPIC PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!:smash:


----------



## Technic

H-Audio - AKA - Here-I-Come said:


> Here is what I say. Talk to Andy about it first, if your for real. Ask him and own of Diyma about doing a small group buy with a limit number of units as many as you can get for your money.
> 
> If they go for it, you paying full price for the units via your credit you say you have.
> 
> The store makes it money or in this case keeps it's money, JBL makes their money, you get some of your money back, at a lost as you say and a few of us get an MS-8 at a great price and JBL knows about the deal and just maybe will give the people who are lucky enough to get a unit a warranty of some sort.
> 
> Just my 2 pennies.
> 
> IF NOT I ALSO SAY BE VERY BEWARE!


I want that combo to go, dammit... with fries and a drink, please.


----------



## SSCustoms

I got to listen to Gary Biggs give the lowdown on the MS-8 on Saturday. If he says it's the real deal, I believe him. I got my name on a couple!


----------



## miker104

60ndown said:


> ive never seen anyone get ripped off on the internet ( / sarcasm)
> 
> if it seems too good to be true ?
> 
> buyers beware imo.
> 
> this thread has generated a lot of hoopla, only takes a small bunch of excited foolish peeps to make a nice deposit on a house for a fraudster.
> 
> if a sale comes up on e bay and all looks legit thats another deal
> 
> post up the link to the e bay sales.
> 
> but sending someone $$$ via pm/paypal/credit card because they say their *special* is foolish.
> 
> You guys are too funny. I recieved email from people telling me they wanted one and then hours later talk **** on here about me selling them.. Well guess what I have 11 people within driving distance that have asked for local pickup and I will only be getting 8 units 6600.00/799.99. I was going to sell them to the first eight people who sent me email no matter where they live, so 8 of you will be getting them local pickup only and you will have a full warranty because guess what I will have a receit for each one. Thanks for those people who left message's in my defense, you guys are too funny, how you would stand up for a company who put's there rules on there sales for the mear fact to keep the people paying top dollar for there unit.. If you guy's are not aware of the markup on this product it would blow your mind!!! And you mean to tell me after waiting years and holding off buying other people's product they could not give you guy's a 100.00 group price break? Anyways you guy's enjoy you MS8. If you still want one send me a email if your local to southern california and you will be put in line. Again I will have eight units and the will go to the first eight
> 
> BEWARE


You guys are too funny. I recieved email from people telling me they wanted one and then hours later talk **** on here about me selling them.. Well guess what I have 11 people within driving distance that have asked for local pickup and I will only be getting 8 units 6600.00/799.99. I was going to sell them to the first eight people who sent me email no matter where they live, so 8 of you will be getting them local pickup only and you will have a full warranty because guess what I will have a receit for each one. Thanks for those people who left message's in my defense, you guys are too funny, how you would stand up for a company who put's there rules on there sales for the mear fact to keep the people paying top dollar for there unit.. If you guy's are not aware of the markup on this product it would blow your mind!!! And you mean to tell me after waiting years and holding off buying other people's product they could not give you guy's a 100.00 group price break? Anyways you guy's enjoy you MS8. If you still want one send me a email if your local to southern california and you will be put in line. Again I will have eight units and the will go to the first eight

I have bought and sold ton's of stuff on the internet and not one time have i ripped or been ripped off. Yes it happen's but use your nugget for a minute and if you knew how paypal worked with confirmed address and verified buyer's you would be okay.. Mike


----------



## Horsemanwill

bassfromspace said:


> If that was the case, the classifieds would be shut down. We're all transshippers?


there's a difference from buying used and new equip. and saying your gonna have a warrenty.


----------



## Horsemanwill

H-Audio - AKA - Here-I-Come said:


> NOW BACK ON TOPIC PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!:smash:


so true sorry for jackin the thread andy.


----------



## quality_sound

Horsemanwill said:


> so then what is it? you have a guy who's buying 800 dollar processors and sellin them cheaper taking a loss? and to those ppl who buy it that won't have a warrenty or anything will blame the manufact if something goes wrong.


That doesn't make it transshipping. 

Say you had $1000 in Best Buy credit but didn't want anything from the store. Your options are:
A) don't buy anything and lose a grand
, or 
B) offer to buy something for someone else with your credit and they give you less than retail. 

Option B you lose some money. Option A you lose ALL of it. Which is a the better decision. 

I agree, I woudln't do it because I like anything I have that's warrantied to be in my name rather than having to go through the hassle of having the original buyer take care of any warranty issues but for enough of a savings some people will take that gamble.


----------



## 6spdcoupe

miker104 said:


> You guys are too funny. I recieved email from people telling me they wanted one and then hours later talk **** on here about me selling them.. Well guess what I have 11 people within driving distance that have asked for local pickup and I will only be getting 8 units 6600.00/799.99. I was going to sell them to the first eight people who sent me email no matter where they live, so 8 of you will be getting them local pickup only and you will have a full warranty because guess what I will have a receit for each one. Thanks for those people who left message's in my defense, you guys are too funny, how you would stand up for a company who put's there rules on there sales for the mear fact to keep the people paying top dollar for there unit.. If you guy's are not aware of the markup on this product it would blow your mind!!! And you mean to tell me after waiting years and holding off buying other people's product they could not give you guy's a 100.00 group price break? Anyways you guy's enjoy you MS8. If you still want one send me a email if your local to southern california and you will be put in line. Again I will have eight units and the will go to the first eight
> 
> I have bought and sold ton's of stuff on the internet and not one time have i ripped or been ripped off. Yes it happen's but use your nugget for a minute and if you knew how paypal worked with confirmed address and verified buyer's you would be okay.. Mike


Still deflecting I see. How 'bout an answer ?



6spdcoupe said:


> So you have had a 'credit' with a dealer across the nation in NY for nearly a year now ? Interesting ..


Better yet, I guess this 'problem' of your must be long standing. Although the text shows a bit different story ..

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/814374-post3.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/832606-post11.html


----------



## matdotcom2000

I know you guys said back to the topic but I gotta say something. This is craziness to bash this man. On top of that if you buy a product authorized dont you have to got back to the original buyer of the product (best buy, mom pop audio store) to use the warranty IF needed. If its a good deal then jump on it, as long as its the ORIGINAL factory product who cares, unless its hot then I dont deal with thieves. But me I NEVER buy the first shipment of anything (windows, Bitone (original)) until the bugs are worked out. If I had the loot I would be all over it. Can't be mad at the customer for wanting a good price, market drives cost.

BTW cant wait to hear one of these installed.


----------



## miker104

6spdcoupe said:


> Still deflecting I see. How 'bout an answer ?
> 
> 
> 
> Better yet, I guess this 'problem' of your must be long standing. Although the text shows a bit different story ..
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/814374-post3.html
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/832606-post11.html


And yes that still holds true. I can get you anything authorized at a great price.. And no, I have not had a credit for over a year across the country. This is a credit from a insurance company who wanted to give me half if I did not take the Store credit.. Now what were you saying about deflecting(you see)


----------



## lucas569

ms8 is mythistical


----------



## ItalynStylion

lucas569 said:


> ms8 is mythistical


Pointless post of the day?


----------



## mp3weenie

Hi Andy,

I wanted to get your opinion on adding a center channel to my setup. Currently I have a single DIN available which would be quite low about stomach height. So I see Alpine has a single DIN center channel but power is low and not sure about the quality.

Another option I am thinking is moving my deck down in the dash (where the ashtray is) leaving two DINS or perhaps moving the head unit to the glove box providing about 3+ DIN to work with a center channel.

I am running JL 150x4 and JL 6.5 comp and coax in rear, so I do not think the alpine center channel would be an option but I want to get your opinion. I like the idea of putting a full size speaker and running at least 75W but I have the capability to run 150W to the center. How important is the height of the center? Will that really lower the sound stage if I am running tweets on top of the dash and a center at stomach height? Maybe just put the tweet centered on top of the dash???

Let me know what you think.

Thanks. Jay


----------



## 14642

western47 said:


> Andy,
> 
> Do you feel that any difference would be heard between a factory deck and an aftermarket. I know that the MS-8 was made to interface with a factory deck but is that the optimal solution?
> 
> Just want to make sure before I place some old decks on the block.


depends on the deck. Which factory deck and which aftermarket? In all honesty, I don't think it'll make a big difference.


----------



## MattyKHZ

Did you get back home Andy?

On a side note. Received the email from Bas which stated he could try and sort me out with a MS-8 in line with teh release schedule rather than ETA of September for Europe but when I replied asking how much and likely date got a read receipt but nothing back.


----------



## lucas569

ItalynStylion said:


> Pointless post of the day?


gets my vote


----------



## michaelsil1

Will the remote control fit in a single din slot?


----------



## 106diablogti

MattyKHZ said:


> Did you get back home Andy?
> 
> On a side note. Received the email from Bas which stated he could try and sort me out with a MS-8 in line with teh release schedule rather than ETA of September for Europe but when I replied asking how much and likely date got a read receipt but nothing back.


Same here


----------



## Houstonshark

michaelsil1 said:


> Will the remote control fit in a single din slot?


Man I really wish the controller were small and slender like the Bit1 and I've never understood a remote in a car. Why weren't the controls built into the display?


----------



## 14642

Houstonshark said:


> Man I really wish the controller were small and slender like the Bit1 and I've never understood a remote in a car. Why weren't the controls built into the display?


So the remote control can be used in the back seat during setup if you measure in all seats and in cars where people are driven rather than driving themselves. The display was designed to be easily installed even when there's no din or half-din pocket. I'm sure it doesn't suit everyone.

This is a DIY forum, right? Make something custom...The screen can be removed for the housing pretty easily and the remote comes with a flush mounting cup. Additionally, the remote is RF rather than IR, so line of sight isn't necessary.

I think Biggs mounted the display in his rear view mirror--seems easy enough.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Houstonshark said:


> Man I really wish the controller were small and slender like the Bit1 and *I've never understood a remote in a car*. Why weren't the controls built into the display?


Have you noticed how OEM controls on cars that can offer it is moving from the dash to near the arm rest? Where the aftermarket remote control normally sits and is used from. 

You have a multitude of functions on your hand and thanks to tactile feedback and your memory of those buttons you don't even need to take your eyes off the road. Same way you don't look at the 40 button remote on your TV set at home when navigating it.


----------



## rexroadj

Andy, in the pic the monitor looks just like the one from the harman drive&play, I am sure its different in content and functionality, but is it similar in size and mounting ability? If so there is a great place to flush mount the screen in Dodge Ram's!!!!


----------



## Houstonshark

I get it and totally understand that you can't design it to perfectly suite everyone and every install but I'm pretty sure the number of users who are the primary driver substantially out number the non driver users. 

The reality is that if you find a great location to custom mount the small display, like Gary did in the rearview mirror, tuning from the backseat via remote must be a little difficult right without excellent vision or having to lean forward to see the display. 

I would think that with 3 years in the making someone would have thought to add some basic controls to the display, maybe just a knob and would have made The Display wireless controller for the MS-8 that can be docked for charging or permanently. I can't imagine anyone objecting to this option and doubt it would have added a tremendous amount to the cost. An included (or optional) remote could still be useful to some. 

I'm sorry if it sounds like I am knocking the MS-8. I think it will be a great piece and I will still definately buy one. I just wish it were more ergonimically flexible. I have been in car audio for over 15 years both as a consumer, a competitor (on a very high, national level) and in sales/management for some well respected shops. I now own a high end home theater and automation company now who is a Harman dealer for Mark Levinson, Lexicon, JBL and Revel. I understand that you can't please everyone and you will almost always have complaints about a products performance or industrial design.

Oh well, there's always next years model right?


----------



## ItalynStylion

^I don't think you have enough experience (see: none) with the unit to make as many assumptions as you are.


----------



## Houstonshark

ItalynStylion said:


> ^I don't think you have enough experience (see: none) with the unit to make as many assumptions as you are.


So I am assuming that it comes with a wireless remote and wired display that does not have any buttons or control on it? You are right, I don't have any experience with this unit but but I do have experience in this industry. Based on it's design concerning the control of the processor (which I deal with everyday in designing and programming Crestron systems for customers) I think that it could have been designed better with the resources Harman has, the experience of the people involved in this project and the amount of time it has taken to bring this product to market. 

This is a piece which could really propel JBL up the ladder in the car audio industry and could dramatically increase their credibility with future high end product offerings. If they can produce a great sounding, intuitively designed processor that should easily translate to being able to design and sell other products like head units, amplifiers, speakers, etc which follow the same standards. 

I think about companies in the consumer electronics industry who build very sucessful pruducts to market today and how the industrial design and ergonomics of the product of course along with performance, really drive their success. As a designer I would be compelled to look at Apple and their designs and take a long, hard look from their perspective and see how I could model my product as if they were designing it. For that matter how cool would it be to have Blutooth connectivity and be able to drive the MS-8 from an iPod Touch or iPhone?

I'll stop now. I look forward to the MS-8 and hope it is wildly successful.


----------



## 14642

I appreciate all the great ideas and the input. We're already hard at work defining and designing some additional solution-style products. We'll keep these suggetsions in mind for those. 

As I've written before, this thing is designed to make your car sound great. Getting that part right was the focus. We think we've provided a workable and convenient way to do that. This thing wasn't intended to be an iPhone and I realize that the UI could have been zoomier, more beautiful, etc.


----------



## onebadmonte

I feel like Donny in the Big Lebowski asking this but where do I buy? Is there a pre-order going online or something? All you Walters out there take it easy, this is a hundred page thread. Hehe.


----------



## quality_sound

It's been stated in the thread many times... search for "backorder"


----------



## onebadmonte

quality_sound said:


> It's been stated in the thread many times... search for "backorder"


Found it. 

Page 89 post 2213. 

Better yet, here's a link to preorder online through Harman Audio

Harman Audio

Too bad the search doesn't go through the thread to specific post.


----------



## o27

How about international orders?


----------



## MattyKHZ

o27 said:


> How about international orders?


I don't really know !!!! Andy on here or via PM has been very helpful but I have not found that from the European contact I have been given, reading emails and not responding.


----------



## western47

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> depends on the deck. Which factory deck and which aftermarket? In all honesty, I don't think it'll make a big difference.


Andy,

My factory is a Honda Accord, 2005, made by Alpine.

The aftermarket would be a Denford 8250. I would really like to use the factory as the integration is much easier.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy, a question about higher voltage balanced sources.

If I have a soundcard that can either put out 2 volts RMS unbal or 7.7 volts RMS bal. signal and I want to use the balanced option in order to squeeze out the extra .8 from the MS-8 that I can't get by only sending it 2 volts unbal. Then where do I connect the balanced signal? The speaker level inputs?

If so, is there any degradation of the signal by that MS-8 using that input compared to RCA the line level inputs?


----------



## 14642

Yup. USe the speaker level inputs.


----------



## moss

woowoo yay pre-order


----------



## BigRed

If you don't want to pre-order, these units are obtainable at a lesser price than msrp. pm if you are interested. comes with warranty as well.


----------



## DAT

BigRed said:


> If you don't want to pre-order, these units are obtainable at a lesser price than msrp. pm if you are interested. comes with warranty as well.


PM sent


----------



## Austin

Don't know if this has been discussed before in this thread but why is this in the dumb question forum?


----------



## rawdawg

Because the thread is mostly filled with such things as, "When's it coming out?" "Is it out yet?" "How come it's not out yet?" and "Is this thing ever gonna' be out?"


----------



## iD Z24

Just send me one Andy... I will leave the iDone logo off of it.


----------



## 14642

BigRed said:


> If you don't want to pre-order, these units are obtainable at a lesser price than msrp. pm if you are interested. comes with warranty as well.


I have to say I'm a little surprised by all of these supposedly available units. There are 42 units in the US and 6 of those are in my office. 20 of them are reserved for sales samples and have been allocated to rep firms and in-house sales people. Those are being tested by engineering before we send them. There are an additional 80 units in the warehouse that are about halfway through incoming quality testing and those are reserved for pre-orders for you guys here and anyone else who creates a back order at www.harmanaudio.com. The rest of the first production will be shipped on a boat and will arrive later. Those will be used to fill dealer orders.

I'm not going to get into some BS arguement about pricing, because distribution decisions aren't mine to make. I do influence what gets covered under warranty, but my influence is to make warranty service available even though our policy states that you have to buy the product from an authorized dealer. My desire is to make sure that everyone who buys one of these things has a great experience, and that's why I've offered to help all of you personally--without you having to call regular tech support.

I've been completely transparent with all of you and would appreciate similar consideration. 

Red, instead of doing this on the sly via PM, why not post the source of the units here, so I can help to make sure you guys who want to buy them through that source can get the same consideration I've offered for people who pre-order from Harman, if possible?


----------



## michaelsil1

Andy,

My understanding is that these units are from an Authorized JBL Dealer and they are not available yet.


----------



## 2DEEP2

Andy spoke like a true Product Manager, knows where his product is...

But someone can offer a short sell on product before it even hits the street from the OEM... Hmm.

You know China has some great engineers, they can copy just about anything 
It would not be the first time a Chinese firm committed patent infringement. 

Aren’t those fake Focals from China?


----------



## BigRed

Andy, I'm not doing anything on the "sly" as you put it. I am offering anybody these units for less than MSRP from an authorized dealer.

I have also read the email from JBL to my dealer that states "order now, and get the first shipment of the new MS-8" I'm sure you don't control this either, but the dealers actually believe it. If the time frame that the units arrive doesn't work for people that have to have them on your first run so be it. But I don't want to get into a dispute about when they will be here. You know more than I do. I am only giving the information about shipping that JBL has given my dealer. Nothing more, nothing less.

We have waited 3 years for the unit. We believe it's going to be a great product. Many of us want it. Many of us don't want to pay MSRP. This is diyma


----------



## 14642

2DEEP2 said:


> Andy spoke like a true Product Manager, knows where his product is...
> 
> But someone can offer a short sell on product before it even hits the street from the OEM... Hmm.
> 
> You know China has some great engineers, they can copy just about anything
> It would not be the first time a Chinese firm committed patent infringement.
> 
> Aren’t those fake Focals from China?


Not possible with this product. The DSP in this thing is a custom part built only for Harman. Additionally, some of the other components are seriously long lead items (120 days) and we've gobbled up the entire world's existing inventory. I can't say that there will never be a counterfeit MS-8, but I can say with certainty that a counterfeit unit won't be available first.


----------



## 14642

BigRed said:


> Andy, I'm not doing anything on the "sly" as you put it. I am offering anybody these units for less than MSRP from an authorized dealer.
> 
> I have also read the email from JBL to my dealer that states "order now, and get the first shipment of the new MS-8" I'm sure you don't control this either, but the dealers actually believe it. If the time frame that the units arrive doesn't work for people that have to have them on your first run so be it. But I don't want to get into a dispute about when they will be here. You know more than I do. I am only giving the information about shipping that JBL has given my dealer. Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> We have waited 3 years for the unit. We believe it's going to be a great product. Many of us want it. Many of us don't want to pay MSRP. This is diyma


 
Fair enough. As I wrote earlier, I just want to make sure that everyone here who orders a unit has the right experience. I know better than most that the market ultimately sets the price of any product. I can't nor do I want to tell dealers how to run their businesses. All I can do is look out for you guys, which is, by definition, looking out for the value of the brands and the products I manage. 

From my perspective, it isn't enough to just make great products available on a price sheet. When you buy a JBL product, you don't just buy some metal, plastic and some circuit traces, you buy a whole experience and making sure it's a good one is partly my job and one about which I'm passionate.


----------



## 14642

rawdawg said:


> Because the thread is mostly filled with such things as, "When's it coming out?" "Is it out yet?" "How come it's not out yet?" and "Is this thing ever gonna' be out?"


 
I'd appreciate it if this thread could be moved back to the regular discussion section of this forum. While there are plenty of requests that could be answered by a simple search, there are lots of other questions here too and more questions and answers that will be posed here as we begin to ship units. 

Please?


----------



## MattyKHZ

Andy,

I don't know if you noticed my earlier post but since receiving a standard email from Bas in Amsterdam when I replied asking about price and availability date all I got was a read receipt and no response.

It seems Harman in Europe don't seem to care if I want to buy it or not. Because of this I am more likely to have top buy from those kind people on here who are offering to make it available.

It's either that or a Audison Bit One as it does not seem like I will be able to get a MS-8 from Harman in Europe. And I am not going to be chasing them if they cannot be bothered to reply to emails. Hardly good customer service and makes me wonder what aftersales would be like !!!!


----------



## 14642

MattyKHZ said:


> Andy,
> 
> I don't know if you noticed my earlier post but since receiving a standard email from Bas in Amsterdam when I replied asking about price and availability date all I got was a read receipt and no response.
> 
> It seems Harman in Europe don't seem to care if I want to buy it or not. Because of this I am more likely to have top buy from those kind people on here who are offering to make it available.
> 
> It's either that or a Audison Bit One as it does not seem like I will be able to get a MS-8 from Harman in Europe. And I am not going to be chasing them if they cannot be bothered to reply to emails. Hardly good customer service and makes me wonder what aftersales would be like !!!!


 
Matty,
I'm sorry. I call Bas on Monday and see what can be done. I'll PM you with a suggestion.


----------



## MattyKHZ

Thanks Andy.

I think there was a post after mine from someone else in the UK who was getting the same response so it's not just me.....

I do appreciate all your help, time and effort on here and you can't do it all yourself otherwise you'd be hand delivering and installing the MS8's too 

If I can't get one from Harman I will have to get one as a grey import or plump for the Bit One. I was hoping to get my car install sorted around my birthday in middle of June if my installer is free but cannot book until I sort the processor as that is the only bit I am needing.


----------



## TPMS

Andy, back to technical questions, I have one more if you're still available..

just wondering if ms-8 will help with the low signal level I have now from pre-outs of the HK audiogateway. for example, at front it is something less than 0.5v and after dividing it to feed 2 different amps (one for mid lows and one for midr and tweets) I think it gets still lower and I have to turn the gain to max. further, also the sub signal is very low ..

so, I am hoping that after feeding only front signal to ms-8 he will manage things better and help with all these problems ..


----------



## t3sn4f2

Hey Andy, I have yet another DIY digital input mod question. 

I found this little device that could make the digital input concerns you mentioned in the initial MS-8 post a none issue. 

MiniDSP - miniDIGI
Data Sheet
Manual

What do you think?


----------



## 14642

TPMS said:


> Andy, back to technical questions, I have one more if you're still available..
> 
> just wondering if ms-8 will help with the low signal level I have now from pre-outs of the HK audiogateway. for example, at front it is something less than 0.5v and after dividing it to feed 2 different amps (one for mid lows and one for midr and tweets) I think it gets still lower and I have to turn the gain to max. further, also the sub signal is very low ..
> 
> so, I am hoping that after feeding only front signal to ms-8 he will manage things better and help with all these problems ..


Voltage in a parallel circuit is constant. What that means is that if the output of your head is .5V, then all the amps connected to it also get .5V. Of course, there's a practical limit to the amount of current the head unit will provide, so connecting a bunch of amplifiers might drag that down a bit if the current requirement became too high, but the input circuits of amplifiers are designed not to have that effect for practical systems. 

In any case, we've left a pretty wide wiindow for input voltage that will work and I think you should be OK.


----------



## SynRG

Andy:

First of all, thanks for your patience and professionalism during the development of the MS8. I've been following and anticipating this product for a couple of years now. I am glad that you and your team are finally realizing your vision. 

Do you have a source for a concise summary of the features and capabilities of the unit that is being brought to market? I know several possibilities have been discussed during the development, but unfortunately in the length of the thread, I've lost track of the final product.

I have a broker looking for a vehicle, hopefully an M35 or M45 in which I would like to implement the MS8. Most of these vehicles come with either an eight- or 11-speaker Bose system which for most audiophiles leaves a lot to be desired. Since it already has a center channel, and has several options as far as speaker placement, I think this would be an interesting application for the MS8. Many owners of these vehicles, and of the similar G35 built on the same platform, often seek upgrades for the system. I hope to be able to chronicle the installation for the benefit of the members here, and for M35 and M45 owners as well on their forums. Should be fun and interesting.

Thanks again for your professionalism and contributions to the forum here; JBL is well represented.


----------



## bkjay

Sorry if I missed this in prior post.You can pre-order MS-8 thu crutchfield. Great PICS to.
JBL MS-8 Digital sound processor at Crutchfield Signature


----------



## ItalynStylion

^That link was worth every bit of my click. The pictures were fantastic. Thank you for sharing.


----------



## ibanzil

When using imprint there was a way to open up the files audyssey used when calibrating the system. Will there be any way to see what the MS-8 did as far as adjustments to TA, eq, and such?


----------



## 14642

ibanzil said:


> When using imprint there was a way to open up the files audyssey used when calibrating the system. Will there be any way to see what the MS-8 did as far as adjustments to TA, eq, and such?


Nope, at least not yet. Originally we were thinking about making that part of the code update downloader, but in the interest of getting the project finished, we scrapped that. I thought it would be cool to have a way for users to upload the files to JBL.com so we could provide a view of what had been done through some online tool and so we'd be able to help troubleshoot if necessary and collect data about cars. All of that is a pretty big piece of work and I haven't had time to make a business case for the investment in time that would require. 

Troubleshooting is turning out to be really easy, so far. For the 10 or 12 cars that have MS-8's currently, there have only been a couple of questions like, "Hmmm...the midrange sounds strange", but a 5 minute conversation about the speaker system, a suggestion or two and an another round of acoustic calibration (a 5 minute process) has fixed all of those quickly.

For example, one of our guys has a Dodge Durango witih the OE Alpine system. He had plans for an additional sub, since the factory sub is a little 8" in the back somewhere. He decided that to get started, he'd just put in the MS-8 and do the sub later. He called and said the midrange sounded strange and wasn't super happy with it and I asked if the tweeters in the front were actually tweeters or if they were those standard Dodge 2" high frequency speakers. Who knows? Anyway, the grille was too big for a tweeter and the mids are in the bottom of the doors. He had the crossover set at about 4k, so we moved it down to about 1k to take the mid out of the response before it started to beam and before the first big peak in the response (happens with all cone drivers). 10 minutes later everything was fixed and he's completely happy without adding an additional sub. Must have been 2" drivers...


I guess my point is that if there are so few people who can be successful in making their car sound great using basic audio tools and an RTA, what's the benefit in a print out of some complex series of impulse responses, except to take the techno-babble to a much higher level and expose our I.P to the public? If you want to know what MS-8 did and you have a PC based analyzer, there is a way to connect the analyzer to the input and output of the MS-8 to make a measurement of each of the output channels. In order to understand completely what's going on, especially for any system that includes "fixing" an OE head unit, each part of the process would have to be separated and displayed. When you set up MS-8, it'll be apparent that the process is a series of steps that have to be performed in a specific order. Correction filters for each step aren't saved in memory, but the correction for the end of each separate series is.

If you're technically astute enough to decipher the data, then you're technically astute enough to figure out how to make those measurments with any analyzer that does FFT and IFFT. A careful read of the manual and some careful thinking about the setup process will make that obvious.

Here's a challenge. The first person who figures out how to measure this using an audio analyzer wins a free pair of JBL 660 GTi components--on me. Send the documentation to me, be sure to send the data as screen shots or text files with an explanation of what you think is going on and tell me the equipment you used to make the measurements. Adam and I will look over it and determine whether you're a winner. I'd love to give away a set of these speakers and will give some serious benefit of the doubt in order to give them away.

What I mean is, get close enough and we'll send the speakers. I'm not looking for a loophole to prevent me from sending $2000 dollars worth of speakers--I'm not your health insurance company.

Oh, one more thing. Submissions have to be kept strictly confidential.


----------



## BigRed

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> What I mean is, get close enough and we'll send the speakers. I'm not looking for a loophole to prevent me from sending $2000 dollars worth of speakers--I'm not your health insurance company.


^^ classic

Andy, if I'm running a true 5.1 disc, should I just force it to 2 channel and let the MS-8 do its thing?


----------



## 14642

Show me what the unit does to the signal for each of the output channels you're using and include what happens to the input signal too and you win a pair of the world's best car speakers. Think of this as a science experiment. You have to show your work or explain it and it has to be presented privately and not as a group effort for all to see on this forum. 

Have a GTG in someone's back yard, figure it out together and appoint someone to be the presenter. 

I'm not giving hints.

Oh, don't bother with Logic7. That'll be too difficult to decipher with the tools you'll have. Plus, I think I've explained it sufficiently here.


----------



## 14642

Lycan must not be awake yet. This is right up his alley.


----------



## rain27

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Show me what the unit does to the signal for each of the output channels you're using and include what happens to the input signal too and you win a pair of the world's best car speakers. Think of this as a science experiment. You have to show your work or explain it and it has to be presented privately and not as a group effort for all to see on this forum.
> 
> Have a GTG in someone's back yard, figure it out together and appoint someone to be the presenter.
> 
> I'm not giving hints.
> 
> Oh, don't bother with Logic7. That'll be too difficult to decipher with the tools you'll have. Plus, I think I've explained it sufficiently here.


Andy,
Did you play a part in creating the 660gti's? If they are the world's best, I must try a pair!


----------



## 14642

Well, I didn't do the engineering, we have real engineers for that. I helped to set the performance targets and to explain why we need what we need in a car and they did the rest. Then I wrote the manual so the eight people in the world who are inclined to read something like that will know why we did what we did.


----------



## 62Lincoln

Hi Andy, I sent you an email as a followup to my question about BMW's Enhanced Premium Sound system, and also included a question about our Toyota. Did the email make it to you, or do I need to resend? Thank you for your help!


----------



## lycan

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Lycan must not be awake yet. This is right up his alley.


now you've done it ... the gauntlet has been thrown down !!

I'll say this with all the humility i can muster ... i've forgotten more about signal processing than most PhD's will ever know  Masters from the tute in cambridge (learned from Oppenheim, the man himself) ; taught graduate-level courses on digital signal processing ; invented new ways to digitally interpolate audio signals with minimal computation, compress wavetable synthesizers, model delta-sigma quantizers, etc. ; yada yada yada. Hell, analog electronics ... a field in which i've got about eighty issued patents ... is a mere _hobby_ in comparison 

SO ... you're gonna have to sweeten the pot a bit my friend  After all, I've already got a couple pairs of 660GTi's (yes, they really _are_ great speakers). 

Here's my proposal : If i can figure out what the MS8 does ... with nothing but an oscilloscope and hand calculator (i do convolution in my sleep) ... will you release full schematics and source code to the public?

_OPEN SOURCE_ bay-bay!


----------



## 14642

lycan said:


> now you've done it ... the gauntlet has been thrown down !!
> 
> 
> Here's my proposal : If i can figure out what the MS8 does ... with nothing but an oscilloscope and hand calculator (i do convolution in my sleep) ... will you release full schematics and source code to the public?
> 
> _OPEN SOURCE_ bay-bay!


No, but I'll buy you a beer. 

Issuing this challenge to you is like asking Wilt Chamberlain if he can reach the salt on the second shelf.


----------



## michaelsil1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, but I'll buy you a beer.
> 
> Issuing this challenge to you is like asking Wilt Chamberlain if he can reach the salt on the second shelf.


He said he would only use an oscilloscope and hand calculator. :laugh:


----------



## lycan

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, but I'll buy you a beer.
> 
> Issuing this challenge to you is like asking Wilt Chamberlain if he can reach the salt on the second shelf.


If the beer is down here in Austin, you _might_ just have a deal 

The hell with the challenge ... when ya visiting Austin again?


----------



## 14642

Hey Lycan,
I don't make it to Austin much anymore. My kids have moved, but the next time I come to see my mom, I'll buy you a beer as an incentive NOT to use a pickle and an abacus to figure out what MS-8 does.


----------



## michaelsil1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hey Lycan,
> I'll buy you a beer as an incentive NOT to use a pickle and an abacus to figure out what MS-8 does.


That's funny.


----------



## quality_sound

Andy,

In the last 12 hours you've posted at least four VERY siq worthy quotes. You're my hero.


----------



## n_olympios

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, but I'll buy you a beer.
> 
> Issuing this challenge to you is like asking Wilt Chamberlain if he can reach the salt on the second shelf.


Considering he's been dead for 10+ years, I take it it's very difficult to do whatever the hell it is you guys were talking about. :laugh:


----------



## BigRed

Andy, if I'm running a true 5.1 disc, should I just force it to 2 channel and let the MS-8 do its thing?

Andy, if I'm running a true 5.1 disc, should I just force it to 2 channel and let the MS-8 do its thing?

Andy, if I'm running a true 5.1 disc, should I just force it to 2 channel and let the MS-8 do its thing?

Andy, if I'm running a true 5.1 disc, should I just force it to 2 channel and let the MS-8 do its thing?

Andy, if I'm running a true 5.1 disc, should I just force it to 2 channel and let the MS-8 do its thing?


----------



## 14642

I'm not giving any additional hints for the challenge.

red, 
If your question is about using MS-8 with discreet sources, yes. Choose the 2-channel downmix from the DVD. L7 will decode it.


----------



## BigRed

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm not giving any additional hints for the challenge.
> 
> red,
> If your question is about using MS-8 with discreet sources, yes. Choose the 2-channel downmix from the DVD. L7 will decode it.


thank you sir


----------



## t3sn4f2

t3sn4f2 said:


> Hey Andy, I have yet another DIY digital input mod question.
> 
> I found this little device that could make the digital input concerns you mentioned in the initial MS-8 post a none issue.
> 
> MiniDSP - miniDIGI
> Data Sheet
> Manual
> 
> What do you think?


Bump?


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> Bump?


 
It'll never be a non-issue, but if you're simply looking to send a stereo PCM signal to MS-8, this looks like it would convert 44.1 to 48k, which is what MS-8 has to have. 

I can't imagine what the benefit could possibly be of sending a digital signal through a sample rate convertor and then into MS-8 over using an analog signal and having MS-8 convert it. Well--except for the possibility of engine noise, but we haven't had any trouble with that no matter whether we've used speaker or line level in. 

You cannot convert a DVD signal, a MOST signal, or anything else that includes a multi-channel stream or that includes an "embedded" control signal with this Mini DSP.


----------



## thehatedguy

Damn it Jeff.

I dunno what else to say.



lycan said:


> now you've done it ... the gauntlet has been thrown down !!
> 
> I'll say this with all the humility i can muster ... i've forgotten more about signal processing than most PhD's will ever know  Masters from the tute in cambridge (learned from Oppenheim, the man himself) ; taught graduate-level courses on digital signal processing ; invented new ways to digitally interpolate audio signals with minimal computation, compress wavetable synthesizers, model delta-sigma quantizers, etc. ; yada yada yada. Hell, analog electronics ... a field in which i've got about eighty issued patents ... is a mere _hobby_ in comparison
> 
> SO ... you're gonna have to sweeten the pot a bit my friend  After all, I've already got a couple pairs of 660GTi's (yes, they really _are_ great speakers).
> 
> Here's my proposal : If i can figure out what the MS8 does ... with nothing but an oscilloscope and hand calculator (i do convolution in my sleep) ... will you release full schematics and source code to the public?
> 
> _OPEN SOURCE_ bay-bay!


----------



## rain27

Andy,

I'm thinking of going with a Mac Mini rather than a traditional head unit. Could you let me know the best way to connect the Mac Mini to the MS-8?

I've heard people say to connect them via an optical connection, but the MS-8 does not have a digital input, so I'm not sure how that would be possible. 

Any ideas?


----------



## 14642

I'd use this:

Applied Research & Technology: ARTcessories™

That's about as simple and cheap as it can possibly be. This little thing works great.


----------



## M3NTAL

There are plenty of USB DAC's that run off of the USB power. Or plenty of other dac's to chose from since you are already running an 120v inverter.


----------



## 14642

M3NTAL said:


> There are plenty of USB DAC's that run off of the USB power. Or plenty of other dac's to chose from since you are already running an 120v inverter.


 
I suggest choosing one that provides balanced outputs. That'll eliminate noise.


----------



## gutz

Andy , I think I've asked this question already - But since it's really coming I'll ask it again hoping to get a clearer answer 

Are there any plans on making a VST processing tool that'll do MS-8 job?

I already have a Car-PC with 8 outputs sound-card , I would love to have the auto-tuning and proccessing abilities of the MS-8


----------



## 14642

gutz said:


> Andy , I think I've asked this question already - But since it's really coming I'll ask it again hoping to get a clearer answer
> 
> Are there any plans on making a VST processing tool that'll do MS-8 job?
> 
> I already have a Car-PC with 8 outputs sound-card , I would love to have the auto-tuning and proccessing abilities of the MS-8


 
Nope. No plans to offer this as VST. Sorry. You can buy the ARC room tune thing (Audyssey) as a VST, though.


----------



## gutz

I tried to use ARC ( Altough not with their mic but just to get the idea ) , Didn't like the outcome at all

Ok , Lets take a different approach
What about an app to replace the screen? So I can control the presets and settings through my car-pc lcd?


----------



## MattyKHZ

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Matty,
> I'm sorry. I call Bas on Monday and see what can be done. I'll PM you with a suggestion.



Hi Andy,

Any news yet????


----------



## 106diablogti

Same as above,

Thanks
Rich


----------



## Andy Slater

c0mpl3x said:


> Bah, Im just waiting for a decent 4-way (lowpass - Bandpass - Bandpass - Highpass) crossover with a 31 band stereo EQ at a realistic price with no extra frills such as aux inputs, ipod, blah blah blah.



X2....With Time Alignment. Done


----------



## 14642

Andy Slater said:


> X2....With Time Alignment. Done


 
MS-8 will do that. If you don't want the Aux input, just open the thing up and remove the connectors. There...no frills.


----------



## ebrahim

I am debating on this unit and the RF Three Sixty.2, Zapco DSP and the new one that Arc Audio told me they coming out at the end of this year.


----------



## xr4tic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I have to say I'm a little surprised by all of these supposedly available units. There are 42 units in the US and 6 of those are in my office. 20 of them are reserved for sales samples and have been allocated to rep firms and in-house sales people. Those are being tested by engineering before we send them. There are an additional 80 units in the warehouse that are about halfway through incoming quality testing and those are reserved for pre-orders for you guys here and anyone else who creates a back order at www.harmanaudio.com. The rest of the first production will be shipped on a boat and will arrive later. Those will be used to fill dealer orders.


Andy, do you have an ETA on when the pre-orders will start shipping?


----------



## quality_sound

ebrahim said:


> I am debating on this unit and the RF Three Sixty.2, Zapco DSP and the new one that Arc Audio told me they coming out at the end of this year.


I highly doubt Arc's piece will be out by the end of the year.


----------



## M&MBlue

xr4tic said:


> Andy, do you have an ETA on when the pre-orders will start shipping?


also... do you know if the Harmon ordering system will kick a shipping notice... so that we can track our order???


----------



## MattyKHZ

Looks like I am going for the Bit One as I can no longer wait for an answer from Harman in Europe and need to progress with my install.

I have had nice offers from people on here to supply me with a MS-8 but according to Andy all producition is currently for pre orders so getting one from a DIYMA member from an authorized dealer could be July, August or September.

I am sure it is a good product and will do well for those countries that get it. Just bad timing I guess.


----------



## BigRed

my dealer called JBL on Monday, and they are still saying they will get their order filled on the first shipment of the units.


----------



## Miguel mac

WOWW


----------



## bkjay

Nice


----------



## quality_sound

How the hell did he get one in Spain already? I thought first batch was US bound???


----------



## Miguel mac

quality_sound said:


> How the hell did he get one in Spain already? I thought first batch was US bound???


No guy, not mine, I found the video on youtube.com


----------



## t3sn4f2

Mouth-breather :laugh:


----------



## 60ndown

$900 for device that will tune your system as good as it can be, taking into account refections, tone, balance, T.A, imaging, stage height etc, etc.

that you can move into any vehicle you ever own and it will do it again. 


ill take one.

no rush..


i can wait.....


----------



## tornaido_3927

lol, cutest remote ever


----------



## ItalynStylion

Do.....waaaaant!


----------



## 2DEEP2

Wow, when that guy pulled the MS-8 out the box was he breathing hard or what?

Maybe he has a medical condition, but he was really breathing hard.


----------



## t3sn4f2

That's Andy!


----------



## bkjay

Seems kind of heavy. Must be the internal amp.


----------



## quality_sound

Miguel mac said:


> No guy, not mine, I found the video on youtube.com


Ahhhhh. I was gonna have to call shenanigans.


----------



## AdamS

quality_sound said:


> Ahhhhh. I was gonna have to call shenanigans.


It's one of our sales/marketing guys, though not Andy.

He just went back to Europe.


----------



## ItalynStylion

So what kind of ship date are we lookin at?


----------



## trevordj

ItalynStylion said:


> So what kind of ship date are we lookin at?


I just checked my preorder status from Harman and it is saying the item will ship 06/04/2010; when I originally placed the order it gave a date of 05/14/2010 so who knows how accurate that is.


----------



## AdamS

ItalynStylion said:


> So what kind of ship date are we lookin at?


Between design engineering and actual shipping, several other groups are involved. The product has passed Reliability (outgoing tests from factory) and is now being tested by the Quality team (incoming tests at our warehouse).

That's all I can say.


----------



## JdotP17

I have a dilema. In my carpc which is connected to a DAC (Stereo) I only have two volume sliders for the left and right channel. Im running a 3-way front stage of tweeters, midrange and midbass so how, using software on the computer i.e foobar can I indiviually change the volume of each channel on the amp(s). I have two amps, one for tweeters and one for midrange and midbass so I need a left and right channel for tweeters, and 2 left and right channels for the 4 channel amp.

Im quite confused, is my only option an external processor?

Thanks in advanced,

Joe


----------



## matt1212

Is it too late to preorder an MS-8? If i preorder now can I expect mine in the first shipment? Going to be doing my install in 5 weeks, can I expect it by then?


----------



## 14642

Never too late.


----------



## matt1212

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Never too late.


Except with guns and taxes..


----------



## ibanzil

Andy, when the drawing the curve does the display show "flat" across the bands after calibration? So, the ms-8 does its thing to get the sound to the reference curve, is the reference curve shown as flat when you start to use the 31 band eq?


----------



## rain27

cajunner said:


> What's on the promotion side of this?
> 
> Any auction/raffle/giveaway/lottery in the works for the first unit off the production line besides 'test' models and research units?
> 
> This thing is the equivalent of the Ford GT, in car stereo terms and a full system/free install would be nice to throw some middle America types, say a GTI woofer, a 660 front stage, next level down components for rears, a center kit and a couple of nice 4 channel amps to go along with the MS-8...
> 
> hmm, might be a little too much for little ol' Harmon International to swing these days...
> 
> 
> haha...
> 
> I could see an online contest involving just one MS-8, no purchase required for entry....


The 4 channel amps could be the new mini digital amps JBL is coming out with that Andy mentioned in this thread some time ago. I can't wait to hear more about those.


----------



## ShakingHorizons

I know this has been discussed before, but I have lost my link to the discussion 

How does this compare to the Alpine h701?

I am running 8s in the doors, horns under the dash, and 12s in the trunk.


----------



## ibanzil

^^^^^^^you are kidding.!


----------



## jaynyc

Andy--

I read the manual and see the unit essentially has 2 inputs if running line level, ie: the main + Aux. ideally, I'd have a headunit running through main and an ipod, tape deck or other source playing through Aux.

Question: WHILE DRIVING, how do I switch inputs? Is it a single button press or do I have to navigate the nested hierarchy of menus on the display unit?

Thanks


----------



## t3sn4f2

jaynyc said:


> Andy--
> 
> I read the manual and see the unit essentially has 2 inputs if running line level, ie: the main + Aux. ideally, I'd have a headunit running through main and an ipod, tape deck or other source playing through Aux.
> 
> Question: WHILE DRIVING, how do I switch inputs? Is it a single button press or do I have to navigate the nested hierarchy of menus on the display unit?
> 
> Thanks


Menu


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy,

for a 3-series BMW (e90) with OE Logic 7, what is the recommended configuration if I am only interested in driver seat optimization? - Would you do exactly what you did with the 2006 325i or based on what you know now, would you make any changes?


----------



## blackreplica

Is this pre-order valid for international addresses?

Waited for this thing since the very beginning when the thread was posted on carsound.com. Finally


----------



## less

Sorry for being intimidated by the 100 pages of posts here - but can someone please let me know if this unit has a digital input? At one point, I'd heard it wasn't going to have one - so I lost interest because I use a 500gb hdd based digital media player as my main source for audio (through the digi out - optical or coax).

A quick scan of this one page seems to show that it has a auto-tune function - great addition! Will the auto-tune allow you to see its selected settings and tweak them by hand after tuning? I've long thought that was the missing link in most of these types of systems although iirc, the new pio hu offers this ability.

Googling to see if I can find my own answers on the JBL site - but hoping for a response here too. 

Jim

Actually, if this unit is truly superior to other options, I guess I could look for a seperate d/a converter for my media player and run its outs into the ms8... although I'd probably end up having to buy a home d/a converter and using some sort of power converter in order to get something relatively current. The only car stand alone d/a I can think of are the too expenisve McIntosh and the old school nakamichi's which don't have current bit depth capabilities. Still, worth investigating. I'd love to use a truly good auto-tune!


----------



## quality_sound

JBL

Tha manual is in the support tab of the link.


----------



## 14642

blackreplica said:


> Is this pre-order valid for international addresses?
> 
> Waited for this thing since the very beginning when the thread was posted on carsound.com. Finally


Nope, it isn't, but our distributor in Singapore, IMS, has a few units, I think.


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> Andy,
> 
> for a 3-series BMW (e90) with OE Logic 7, what is the recommended configuration if I am only interested in driver seat optimization? - Would you do exactly what you did with the 2006 325i or based on what you know now, would you make any changes?


As far as the speaker system goes, I'd definitely add a tweeter to the center channel. If you need the car to play loudly, you'll want to add amps, but if not, add a sub and use theunder-seat 8" for midbass. It'll work great.


----------



## 14642

less said:


> Sorry for being intimidated by the 100 pages of posts here - but can someone please let me know if this unit has a digital input? At one point, I'd heard it wasn't going to have one - so I lost interest because I use a 500gb hdd based digital media player as my main source for audio (through the digi out - optical or coax).
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, if this unit is truly superior to other options, I guess I could look for a seperate d/a converter for my media player and run its outs into the ms8... although I'd probably end up having to buy a home d/a converter and using some sort of power converter in order to get something relatively current. The only car stand alone d/a I can think of are the too expenisve McIntosh and the old school nakamichi's which don't have current bit depth capabilities. Still, worth investigating. I'd love to use a truly good auto-tune!


The unit doesn't have a digital input. Sorry about that. This ought to work and it isn't very expensive.

Digital Audio PCM to Stereo Analog Audio Converter, Audio Authority 979R


----------



## BigRed

my dealer received a demo of the unit in a car that had a stock system. the rep did a before and after using the MS-8's internal amplifier going to the stock speakers....needless to say my dealer was blown away by what it did.  he really could not believe the difference. I've known this guy over 20 years and not much impresses him. That being said, I think this thing is the real deal


----------



## 60ndown

BigRed said:


> my dealer received a demo of the unit in a car that had a stock system. the rep did a before and after using the MS-8's internal amplifier going to the stock speakers....needless to say my dealer was blown away by what it did.  he really could not believe the difference. I've known this guy over 20 years and not much impresses him. That being said, I think this thing is the real deal


your dealer


----------



## michaelsil1

60ndown said:


> your dealer


Old habits die hard!


----------



## t3sn4f2

There are no digital inputs.

There was mention once by Andy of a digital input mod but nothing more has been said about it.

The mod would still require you to do some type of QUALITY sample rate conversion of the digital signal in order to convert it from which ever format you are sending it (ie 44kHz,96kHz) to 48kHz that the MS-8 NEEDS and runs at.

This can be done through an ASRC plug-in on a CarPC, an ASRC option built into a soundcard (ie some creative cards), or an external ASRC module (MniDIGI). The minidigi is what would be used for any type of digital device other then a CarPC.

I've researched this quite a bit and I've come to the conclusion that you can have the same performance through the analog inputs as you would going digital if you know what you are doing. Digital would only help someone with a portable device that has spdif out and an inferior weak analog out, where mounting it up front and away from the ms-8 could cause transmission problems and/or make you have to raise your amp gains to a noisy point to make up for the weak signal going into the MS-8 (remember the ms-8 is unity gain, so whatever you punt in you get out. No more, no less. Up to 2.8 volts RMS).

So in that case a digital input would help, BUT it would be just as good to run the spdif out from that device in the front of the car to the back and connect it to a 24bit spdif to analog out converter with high voltage balanced outputs. Then connect that balanced signal to the ms-8 high level inputs. Plus it would not be that much more expensive since you would save the cost of having to get the ASRC module. 

There would not be any noise because the two grounds are right next to each other, PLUS a quality inexpensive high resolution spdif to analog converter is capable of much higher resolution then what a CD 16bit/44kHz file can produce. Being as it is used to mix and master high resolution track before they are converted down to CD format.

Take for instance this EMU-0404 USB. It has the potential if sent a high resolution digital signal to put out this level of quality in the analog outputs at 4 volts RMS (balanced).

Analog Line Outputs when playing a 24 bit track 

Type: balanced, AC-coupled, 2-pole low-pass differential filter 
D/A converter: AK4396 
Level (auto detect): 
- Professional: +12dBV max (balanced) 
- Consumer: +6dBV max (unbalanced) 

Frequency Response (20Hz - 20kHz): *0.06/-.035dB *
Dynamic Range (1kHz, A-weighted): *117dB* 
Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-weighted): *117dB* 
THD+N (1kHz at -1dBFS): *-100dB (.001%)* 
Stereo Crosstalk (1kHz at -1dBFS): *< -114.5dB *
Balanced/Unbalanced Output Impedance: 560 Ohms 

ON THE OTHER HAND, the following is the best you can get from a CD's 16bit/44kHz S/PDIF digital output. 

Frequency Response (20Hz - 20kHz): *0.00/-0.0dB *
Dynamic Range (1kHz, A-weighted):* ~97.8dB *
Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-weighted): *~97.8dB *
THD+N (1kHz at -1dBFS):* ~-92dB (.0021%)* 
Stereo Crosstalk (1kHz at -1dBFS): *<-97dB *
Balanced/Unbalanced Output Impedance: 560 Ohms 



You can see that an affordable converter's analog output quality is WAYYYY beyond the resolution capabilities of a CD file, and the differance when playing that digital 16bit/44kHz through the analog out is virtually identical when compared to the digital result due to the *resolution headroom *of the D to A converter.

I would recommend the EMU because for $200 you get the following.

- You can use one without a computer connected. Just send it a regulated 5 volts DC and you have a zero latency spdif-to-balanced out converter WITH analog potentiometer volume control which you can use as a master volume control if you are clever and can mod it to integrate into the dash. That would require mounting the device up front to keep the signal run of the potentiometer as short as possible. Mounting the device away from the MS-8 would not matter since the outputs are balanced and strong. 

- You get a high resolution music capable DAC for your CarPC.

- You get a high quality balanced/unbalanced line driver that goes to the same output that your digital input and PC media goes to. Good for OEM head units that have a line out option but that is too low for the MS-8 to accept. You run it though the EMU0404 and make it a 4 volt balanced output. [For this app you would have to add a high quality rotary source select on the head unit outputs so that you can cut and short the inputs on the emu when playing from another input (ie spdif or PC). Same goes the other way around, you need to pause the digital source while playing the head unit.] This is because all inputs are on at all times. 

Not that much to ask considering you would have to go through a multi step function process to switch inputs on the MS-8 if you were to just send the output from a head unit to one of its inputs and the spdif to analog out to another one of its inputs when using that configuration. Plus you would loose the line driver capabilities. 

- For real simple configurations such as one with a OEM head unit and an AUX input into the MS-8. You have the ability to send the balanced output from your portable devices S/PDIF conversion into the AUX in on the MS-8 and not have to worry about clipping its 2 volt max input. Just simply turn down the analog attenuator on the EMU till the MS-8's input does not clip. 

- You get a bunch of pro editing and recording software that you can use to record an analog source on the fly such as a radio show or a MIX that you really like.

- You get a high resolution measuring instrument with a high quality mic preamp to measure anything and everything under the sun. From your cars acoustic properties to your mobile phones analog output quality. All mobile by the way. 

- You get a high quality headphone amp that you can use to instantly monitor a source. For instance when you are tuning you can monitor the track though some high quality headphones to see how that track was intended to sound tonally. Get an instant accurate point of reference.

- Thanks to the high quality analog output you get a pristine way of sending subscription music tracks from a CarPC to the MS-8. Or from a high quality yet low output voltage (ie typically .5 volts) subscription capable portable player.

Did I forget anything?


----------



## rain27

less said:


> Sorry for being intimidated by the 100 pages of posts here - but can someone please let me know if this unit has a digital input? At one point, I'd heard it wasn't going to have one - so I lost interest because I use a 500gb hdd based digital media player as my main source for audio (through the digi out - optical or coax).
> 
> A quick scan of this one page seems to show that it has a auto-tune function - great addition! Will the auto-tune allow you to see its selected settings and tweak them by hand after tuning? I've long thought that was the missing link in most of these types of systems although iirc, the new pio hu offers this ability.
> 
> Googling to see if I can find my own answers on the JBL site - but hoping for a response here too.
> 
> Jim
> 
> Actually, if this unit is truly superior to other options, I guess I could look for a seperate d/a converter for my media player and run its outs into the ms8... although I'd probably end up having to buy a home d/a converter and using some sort of power converter in order to get something relatively current. The only car stand alone d/a I can think of are the too expenisve McIntosh and the old school nakamichi's which don't have current bit depth capabilities. Still, worth investigating. I'd love to use a truly good auto-tune!


Less,
Perhaps you could use a head unit with a digital input (i.e. DRZ9255) and connect the media player directly to it, and then connect the head unit to the MS-8?


----------



## DAT

rain27 said:


> Less,
> Perhaps you could use a head unit with a digital input (i.e. DRZ9255) and connect the media player directly to it, and then connect the head unit to the MS-8?


yeah LESS, I got an extra DRZ9255 for sale later this week $700 looks 9/10 works 10/10


----------



## jaynyc

t3sn4f2 said:


> Menu


Does anyone know if there is any plan to make it EASY to switch inputs with a hotkey or repeated button press on the remote?


----------



## AdamS

jaynyc said:


> Does anyone know if there is any plan to make it EASY to switch inputs with a hotkey or repeated button press on the remote?


No hotkey, but only 2 or 3 button pushes from main menu. Input selection is the first item in the main menu.

Will take it as a suggestion for first code update.


----------



## t3sn4f2

AdamS said:


> No hotkey, but only 2 or 3 button pushes from main menu. Input selection is the first item in the main menu.
> 
> *Will take it as a suggestion for first code update*.


Sweet


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> As far as the speaker system goes, I'd definitely add a tweeter to the center channel. If you need the car to play loudly, you'll want to add amps, but if not, add a sub and use theunder-seat 8" for midbass. It'll work great.


Thanks, I'm getting closer to pulling the trigger on this unit. A couple more questions:

In that car, do you see any real advantage in going with an active front stage, since the mid and tweet locations are virtually equidistant to the driver's head?

Also, If I am the only person in the car, will I benefit from the rear speakers ("surround" sound) or should I just focus on the fronts? I've always been a big fan of front stage systems, but if you think it would help in some way to have the rear speakers playing, I would hook them up.

And, how much benefit will I have from the center channel and do you think I could do without it?

Finally, how much benefit (if any) would you expect going with aftermarket speakers over the L7 speakers?

Thanks.


----------



## quality_sound

If you're not going to run a center/rears then you're going to lose a lot of the MS-8s benefits IMO. At that point I'd just do a B1.1 or DSP6-SL. 

I think you really should do the rears at a minimum.


----------



## t3sn4f2

quality_sound said:


> If you're not going to run a center/rears then you're going to lose a lot of the MS-8s benefits IMO. At that point I'd just do a B1.1 or DSP6-SL.
> 
> I think you really should do the rears at a minimum.


From what I understand, the stereo auto EQ on the MS-8 is as big a feature as Logic7.


----------



## JoeDirte

quality_sound said:


> If you're not going to run a center/rears then you're going to lose a lot of the MS-8s benefits IMO. At that point I'd just do a B1.1 or DSP6-SL.
> 
> I think you really should do the rears at a minimum.





> From what I understand, the stereo auto EQ on the MS-8 is as big a feature as Logic7.


Right. Neither of those units do any auto EQ-ing.


----------



## michaelsil1

Less than two weeks until I receive mine. epper:


----------



## estione

i'm looking forward to seeing a alpine 700/701 v ms-8


----------



## jaynyc

Question: the manual says to calibrate *not* while driving; however, how does ROAD and ENGINE NOISE factor into the auto-calibration? My cabin is noisy, and I feel like that would influence the calibration considerably.


----------



## michaelsil1

jaynyc said:


> Question: the manual says to calibrate *not* while driving; however, how does ROAD and ENGINE NOISE factor into the auto-calibration? My cabin is noisy, and I feel like that would influence the calibration considerably.


I would think that you would want to calibrate and auto tune in the most quiet place you could find.


----------



## lycan

t3sn4f2 said:


> There are no digital inputs.
> 
> There was mention once by Andy of a digital input mod but nothing more has been said about it.
> 
> The mod would still require you to do some type of QUALITY sample rate conversion of the digital signal in order to convert it from which ever format you are sending it (ie 44kHz,96kHz) to 48kHz that the MS-8 NEEDS and runs at.
> 
> This can be done through an ASRC plug-in on a CarPC, an ASRC option built into a soundcard (ie some creative cards), or an external ASRC module (MniDIGI). The minidigi is what would be used for any type of digital device other then a CarPC.
> 
> I've researched this quite a bit and I've come to the conclusion that you can have the same performance through the analog inputs as you would going digital if you know what you are doing. Digital would only help someone with a portable device that has spdif out and an inferior weak analog out, where mounting it up front and away from the ms-8 could cause transmission problems and/or make you have to raise your amp gains to a noisy point to make up for the weak signal going into the MS-8 (remember the ms-8 is unity gain, so whatever you punt in you get out. No more, no less. Up to 2.8 volts RMS).
> 
> So in that case a digital input would help, BUT it would be just as good to run the spdif out from that device in the front of the car to the back and connect it to a 24bit spdif to analog out converter with high voltage balanced outputs. Then connect that balanced signal to the ms-8 high level inputs. Plus it would not be that much more expensive since you would save the cost of having to get the ASRC module.
> 
> There would not be any noise because the two grounds are right next to each other, PLUS a quality inexpensive high resolution spdif to analog converter is capable of much higher resolution then what a CD 16bit/44kHz file can produce. Being as it is used to mix and master high resolution track before they are converted down to CD format.
> 
> Take for instance this EMU-0404 USB. It has the potential if sent a high resolution digital signal to put out this level of quality in the analog outputs at 4 volts RMS (balanced).
> 
> Analog Line Outputs when playing a 24 bit track
> 
> Type: balanced, AC-coupled, 2-pole low-pass differential filter
> D/A converter: AK4396
> Level (auto detect):
> - Professional: +12dBV max (balanced)
> - Consumer: +6dBV max (unbalanced)
> 
> Frequency Response (20Hz - 20kHz): *0.06/-.035dB *
> Dynamic Range (1kHz, A-weighted): *117dB*
> Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-weighted): *117dB*
> THD+N (1kHz at -1dBFS): *-100dB (.001%)*
> Stereo Crosstalk (1kHz at -1dBFS): *< -114.5dB *
> Balanced/Unbalanced Output Impedance: 560 Ohms
> 
> ON THE OTHER HAND, the following is the best you can get from a CD's 16bit/44kHz S/PDIF digital output.
> 
> Frequency Response (20Hz - 20kHz): *0.00/-0.0dB *
> Dynamic Range (1kHz, A-weighted):* ~97.8dB *
> Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-weighted): *~97.8dB *
> THD+N (1kHz at -1dBFS):* ~-92dB (.0021%)*
> Stereo Crosstalk (1kHz at -1dBFS): *<-97dB *
> Balanced/Unbalanced Output Impedance: 560 Ohms
> 
> 
> 
> You can see that an affordable converter's analog output quality is WAYYYY beyond the resolution capabilities of a CD file, and the differance when playing that digital 16bit/44kHz through the analog out is virtually identical when compared to the digital result due to the *resolution headroom *of the D to A converter.
> 
> I would recommend the EMU because for $200 you get the following.
> 
> - You can use one without a computer connected. Just send it a regulated 5 volts DC and you have a zero latency spdif-to-balanced out converter WITH analog potentiometer volume control which you can use as a master volume control if you are clever and can mod it to integrate into the dash. That would require mounting the device up front to keep the signal run of the potentiometer as short as possible. Mounting the device away from the MS-8 would not matter since the outputs are balanced and strong.
> 
> - You get a high resolution music capable DAC for your CarPC.
> 
> - You get a high quality balanced/unbalanced line driver that goes to the same output that your digital input and PC media goes to. Good for OEM head units that have a line out option but that is too low for the MS-8 to accept. You run it though the EMU0404 and make it a 4 volt balanced output. [For this app you would have to add a high quality rotary source select on the head unit outputs so that you can cut and short the inputs on the emu when playing from another input (ie spdif or PC). Same goes the other way around, you need to pause the digital source while playing the head unit.] This is because all inputs are on at all times.
> 
> Not that much to ask considering you would have to go through a multi step function process to switch inputs on the MS-8 if you were to just send the output from a head unit to one of its inputs and the spdif to analog out to another one of its inputs when using that configuration. Plus you would loose the line driver capabilities.
> 
> - For real simple configurations such as one with a OEM head unit and an AUX input into the MS-8. You have the ability to send the balanced output from your portable devices S/PDIF conversion into the AUX in on the MS-8 and not have to worry about clipping its 2 volt max input. Just simply turn down the analog attenuator on the EMU till the MS-8's input does not clip.
> 
> - You get a bunch of pro editing and recording software that you can use to record an analog source on the fly such as a radio show or a MIX that you really like.
> 
> - You get a high resolution measuring instrument with a high quality mic preamp to measure anything and everything under the sun. From your cars acoustic properties to your mobile phones analog output quality. All mobile by the way.
> 
> - You get a high quality headphone amp that you can use to instantly monitor a source. For instance when you are tuning you can monitor the track though some high quality headphones to see how that track was intended to sound tonally. Get an instant accurate point of reference.
> 
> - Thanks to the high quality analog output you get a pristine way of sending subscription music tracks from a CarPC to the MS-8. Or from a high quality yet low output voltage (ie typically .5 volts) subscription capable portable player.
> 
> Did I forget anything?


i just want to say that it's refreshing to read an intelligent, informative post now & then


----------



## jaynyc

cajunner said:


> the calibration is not used to level sound on an ongoing dynamic basis, if you want that feature you will likely have to obtain another piece of equipment. I know I've had it in some factory systems and I never liked it when the sound would increase according to ambient noise, I do that on my own by turning a knob.


got it. i would have thought engine noise would influence perception of low frequencies in particular.


----------



## t3sn4f2

lycan said:


> i just want to say that it's refreshing to read an intelligent, informative post now & then


Thank you sir


----------



## 14642

jaynyc said:


> Does anyone know if there is any plan to make it EASY to switch inputs with a hotkey or repeated button press on the remote?


It's pretty easy. If you set the main menu as the default screen, you can call up the input selection easily and then switch between head unit and auxiliary. There are no plans, but we've added this request to the list of requests.


----------



## quality_sound

JoeDirte said:


> Right. Neither of those units do any auto EQ-ing.


Nothing but the MS-8 and Imprint do but you're missing the point. If you're going to use the MS-8 why handicap it?


----------



## rain27

quality_sound said:


> Nothing but the MS-8 and Imprint do but you're missing the point. If you're going to use the MS-8 why handicap it?


The issue is that a great majority do not know how to tune a stereo well, whether they realize it or not. If the MS-8 can eq and time align to make a stereo sound the way it should, then that is a HUGE benefit by itself, without adding a center or rears.


----------



## quality_sound

Again, I agree with that and have said so twice now. My point was simply to not handicap it. Will it work without a center and rears. Absolutely. Will you get better results with a center and rears. Absolutely. Worst case if you can't do a center at least do the rears and get most of the L7 benefits.


----------



## shadowfactory

I would love to own one but seeing as the unit costs more than my entire stereo system, it probably won't be anytime soon.


----------



## less

rain27 said:


> The issue is that a great majority do not know how to tune a stereo well, whether they realize it or not. If the MS-8 can eq and time align to make a stereo sound the way it should, then that is a HUGE benefit by itself, without adding a center or rears.


I guess I am just old school and am used to music that comes from in front of me (for the most part). To my knowledge, aside from those DVDs that are music oriented, professional mixers create and produce music under the assumption that it will be played back using a two channel system that still seems to be the standard for musical reproduction. 

I REALLY don't want to spend the thousands of additional dollars or hours of time it would take to bring my system up to the same caliber of 5+ channel sound: additional amps, rear speakers, center speakers, cables, fabrication of center channel speaker locations and finally, altering my electrical system to support that additional power draw (and losing the little horsepower I have). 

For me, the bright spot is auto-tune feature - but I can see that others might be into" the whole surround thing." I'm going to have to research now and see if the ipod system included as part of this process the d/a conversion internally or use the ipod internal d/a converter. If so, theoretically, I could pick up another ipod and convert my music to apple lossless format and between my two ipods possibly keep my travel music/video collection intact.

Input switching is a non-issue (for me) since I just use the media player for all audio and video. I guess I might want to monitor navi at some point in the future though.

Thanks very much for the thoughtful responses - very helpful indeed!

Jim


----------



## lycan

Indeed ... music is, usually, intended to come from in-front of you ... but the _sense of space_ comes from all around 

listening to rock, opera, orchestral music, choirs, etc. in a telephone booth (aka car) is a somewhat "un-natural" experience. Rears/surrounds done right can enhance the _sense of space_ ... more valuable in a car, than a home or studio.


----------



## t3sn4f2

less said:


> I guess I am just old school and am used to music that comes from in front of me (for the most part). To my knowledge, aside from those DVDs that are music oriented, professional mixers create and produce music under the assumption that it will be played back using a two channel system that still seems to be the standard for musical reproduction.
> 
> I REALLY don't want to spend the thousands of additional dollars or hours of time it would take to bring my system up to the same caliber of 5+ channel sound: additional amps, rear speakers, center speakers, cables, fabrication of center channel speaker locations and finally, altering my electrical system to support that additional power draw (and losing the little horsepower I have).
> 
> For me, the bright spot is auto-tune feature - but I can see that others might be into" the whole surround thing." *I'm going to have to research now and see if the ipod system included as part of this process the d/a conversion internally or use the ipod internal d/a converter.* If so, theoretically, I could pick up another ipod and convert my music to apple lossless format and between my two ipods possibly keep my travel music/video collection intact.
> 
> Input switching is a non-issue (for me) since I just use the media player for all audio and video. I guess I might want to monitor navi at some point in the future though.
> 
> Thanks very much for the thoughtful responses - very helpful indeed!
> 
> Jim


Are you referring to the exclusive iPod input and control on the MS-8? That was dropped from the final design long ago.


----------



## Dangerranger

Don't know if it's been asked as this thread is absolutely gigantic, but the Auto-Eq on the unit: Does it EQ to a dead flat response, or more along the lines of a vehicular equal loudness curve (accounting for reflections, cabin gain, etc) kind of like Alpine uses in their PXE-H650? Just wondering as I plan to get the unit and wanna know from a tuning/tweaking standpoint what the baseline is going to be


----------



## t3sn4f2

Dangerranger said:


> Don't know if it's been asked as this thread is absolutely gigantic, but the Auto-Eq on the unit: Does it EQ to a dead flat response, or more along the lines of a vehicular equal loudness curve (accounting for reflections, cabin gain, etc) kind of like Alpine uses in their PXE-H650? Just wondering as I plan to get the unit and wanna know from a tuning/tweaking standpoint what the baseline is going to be


IIRC it's something like this, but I could be wrong.


----------



## Gary Mac

michaelsil1 said:


> Less than two weeks until I receive mine. epper:


How do you know when its coming if we pre-ordered???


----------



## T3mpest

t3sn4f2 said:


> IIRC it's something like this, but I could be wrong.
> 
> View attachment 18444


I think you can actual select the curve you want it to aim for IIRC. It'll build what you ask it to, within reason.


----------



## michaelsil1

Gary Mac said:


> How do you know when its coming if we pre-ordered???


A little birdie told me.


----------



## trevordj

Gary Mac said:


> How do you know when its coming if we pre-ordered???


When you preordered with Harman they should have sent you an email with all the deets on how to track. 

Just out of curiosity, I checked my status tonight and: 

"We are processing your order and expect to have shipping information for you by: 5/23/2010"

As of a few days ago it said shipping info would be available 06/04/2010... Something tells me this date change is a good sign.


----------



## quality_sound

Mine says that now too! I wonder if we get the free shipping it shows on the MS-8 page now. That's 3 whole dollars!


----------



## t3sn4f2

T3mpest said:


> I think you can actual select the curve you want it to aim for IIRC. It'll build what you ask it to, within reason.


You can't select the curve during calibration, but from what I understand the auto tune puts the end result where it thinks it should be to give you _the auto tuned_ results. After that you use the EQ, tone, and center channel level controls to tailor the response to your particular taste.


----------



## trigg007

t3sn4f2 said:


> You can't select the curve during calibration, but *from what I understand the auto tune puts the end result where it thinks it should be to give you the auto tuned results. After that you use the EQ, tone, and center channel level controls to tailor the response to your particular taste*.



I hope you're right; can anyone confirm? 

Also, is there anything else available (literature) with more detail in what you can/can't do with the MS8. I've read both the MS8 manual and the Bit1.1 manual. To me MS8 seems like "set it & forget it" versus the BIT.1 being more of a nightmare to tune for those of us who just want to enjoy the music. Don't get me wrong, according to the manuals, the Bit1.1 appears to have substantially more processing power, or atleast the manual is considerably more informative (IMO). What are the crossover options? Can the time correction be tweaked/changed versus the autotune feature, etc...


----------



## t3sn4f2

trigg007 said:


> I hope you're right; can anyone confirm?
> 
> Also, is there anything else available (literature) with more detail in what you can/can't do with the MS8. I've read both the MS8 manual and the Bit1.1 manual. To me MS8 seems like "set it & forget it" versus the BIT.1 being more of a nightmare to tune for those of us who just want to enjoy the music. Don't get me wrong, according to the manuals, the Bit1.1 appears to have substantially more processing power, or atleast the manual is considerably more informative (IMO). What are the crossover options? Can the time correction be tweaked/changed versus the autotune feature, etc...


I would think that if there was a choice on which response curve you want the auto tune to go by, it would be mentioned in the manual. That seems like a VERY big step to go through for it just not to be mentioned at all in the _detailed_ step by step description in the manual.


----------



## trigg007

t3sn4f2 said:


> I would think that if there was a choice on which response curve you want the auto tune to go by, it would be mentioned in the manual. That seems like a VERY big step to go through for it just not to be mentioned at all in the _detailed_ step by step description in the manual.


I'm not overly concerned with response the curve options. However, what you claim is not clearly stated in the manual. It'd be nice to confirm though...

My primary concern is about the crossover options. What types (Butterworth/Linkwitz), available slopes & crossover range/setting options. I spent 20 or so minutes on the phone with JBL tech support in an attempt to have my questions answered to no avail. All they could offer was wording similar to the manual. No disrespect to JBL, but I'd like to know before making my purchase decision. All the tech person could offer was a "call back in 2 weeks". Maybe Andy can "chime" in


----------



## AdamS

1st order: Butterworth
2nd order: LR
3rd order: Butterworth
4th order: LR

LR doesn't exist for 1st and 3rd as it is a squared Butterworth.

Crossover frequency resolution is in resolution of Hz.

if you have a sub

subsonic : 20-50 Hz
sub/front: 20-200 Hz

if you don't have a sub

sub/front: 20-100 Hz

others

Front Lo/Mid: 100Hz-10Khz
Front Mid/Hi: 200Hz-10KHz

Center highpass: 50Hz-10KHz
Center Lo/Hi: 50Hz-10KHz
Side highpass: 50Hz-10KHz
Rear highpass: 50Hz-10KHz

There are restrictions... ie complementary lowpass and highpass must be at the same frequency. You can't equalize the system with crossovers by forcing bumps or dips. Use the 31-band for that.


----------



## trigg007

AdamS said:


> 1st order: Butterworth
> 2nd order: LR
> 3rd order: Butterworth
> 4th order: LR
> 
> LR doesn't exist for 1st and 3rd as it is a squared Butterworth.
> 
> Crossover frequency resolution is in resolution of Hz.
> 
> if you have a sub
> 
> subsonic : 20-50 Hz
> sub/front: 20-200 Hz
> 
> if you don't have a sub
> 
> sub/front: 20-100 Hz
> 
> others
> 
> Front Lo/Mid: 100Hz-10Khz
> Front Mid/Hi: 200Hz-10KHz
> 
> Center highpass: 50Hz-10KHz
> Center Lo/Hi: 50Hz-10KHz
> Side highpass: 50Hz-10KHz
> Rear highpass: 50Hz-10KHz
> 
> There are restrictions... ie complementary lowpass and highpass must be at the same frequency. You can't equalize the system with crossovers by forcing bumps or dips. Use the 31-band for that.


great...what about a 3-way set-up?


----------



## AdamS

trigg007 said:


> great...what about a 3-way set-up?


It's included. Here's an example. Suppose you have a left (3-way), right (3-way) and sub.


subsonic : 20-50 Hz 
sub/front: 20-200 Hz (between sub and front)

Front Lo/Mid: 100Hz-10Khz (between low and mid)
Front Mid/Hi: 200Hz-10KHz (between mid and high)

Visually (from a low frequency to high frequency perspective):

-Sub-Low-Mid-High

There are crossovers at each of the -.


----------



## Hernan

t3sn4f2 said:


> There are no digital inputs.
> 
> There was mention once by Andy of a digital input mod but nothing more has been said about it.
> 
> The mod would still require you to do some type of QUALITY sample rate conversion of the digital signal in order to convert it from which ever format you are sending it (ie 44kHz,96kHz) to 48kHz that the MS-8 NEEDS and runs at.
> 
> This can be done through an ASRC plug-in on a CarPC, an ASRC option built into a soundcard (ie some creative cards), or an external ASRC module (MniDIGI). The minidigi is what would be used for any type of digital device other then a CarPC.
> 
> I've researched this quite a bit and I've come to the conclusion that you can have the same performance through the analog inputs as you would going digital if you know what you are doing. Digital would only help someone with a portable device that has spdif out and an inferior weak analog out, where mounting it up front and away from the ms-8 could cause transmission problems and/or make you have to raise your amp gains to a noisy point to make up for the weak signal going into the MS-8 (remember the ms-8 is unity gain, so whatever you punt in you get out. No more, no less. Up to 2.8 volts RMS).
> 
> So in that case a digital input would help, BUT it would be just as good to run the spdif out from that device in the front of the car to the back and connect it to a 24bit spdif to analog out converter with high voltage balanced outputs. Then connect that balanced signal to the ms-8 high level inputs. Plus it would not be that much more expensive since you would save the cost of having to get the ASRC module.
> 
> There would not be any noise because the two grounds are right next to each other, PLUS a quality inexpensive high resolution spdif to analog converter is capable of much higher resolution then what a CD 16bit/44kHz file can produce. Being as it is used to mix and master high resolution track before they are converted down to CD format.
> 
> Take for instance this EMU-0404 USB. It has the potential if sent a high resolution digital signal to put out this level of quality in the analog outputs at 4 volts RMS (balanced).
> 
> Analog Line Outputs when playing a 24 bit track
> 
> Type: balanced, AC-coupled, 2-pole low-pass differential filter
> D/A converter: AK4396
> Level (auto detect):
> - Professional: +12dBV max (balanced)
> - Consumer: +6dBV max (unbalanced)
> 
> Frequency Response (20Hz - 20kHz): *0.06/-.035dB *
> Dynamic Range (1kHz, A-weighted): *117dB*
> Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-weighted): *117dB*
> THD+N (1kHz at -1dBFS): *-100dB (.001%)*
> Stereo Crosstalk (1kHz at -1dBFS): *< -114.5dB *
> Balanced/Unbalanced Output Impedance: 560 Ohms
> 
> ON THE OTHER HAND, the following is the best you can get from a CD's 16bit/44kHz S/PDIF digital output.
> 
> Frequency Response (20Hz - 20kHz): *0.00/-0.0dB *
> Dynamic Range (1kHz, A-weighted):* ~97.8dB *
> Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-weighted): *~97.8dB *
> THD+N (1kHz at -1dBFS):* ~-92dB (.0021%)*
> Stereo Crosstalk (1kHz at -1dBFS): *<-97dB *
> Balanced/Unbalanced Output Impedance: 560 Ohms
> 
> 
> 
> You can see that an affordable converter's analog output quality is WAYYYY beyond the resolution capabilities of a CD file, and the differance when playing that digital 16bit/44kHz through the analog out is virtually identical when compared to the digital result due to the *resolution headroom *of the D to A converter.
> 
> I would recommend the EMU because for $200 you get the following.
> 
> - You can use one without a computer connected. Just send it a regulated 5 volts DC and you have a zero latency spdif-to-balanced out converter WITH analog potentiometer volume control which you can use as a master volume control if you are clever and can mod it to integrate into the dash. That would require mounting the device up front to keep the signal run of the potentiometer as short as possible. Mounting the device away from the MS-8 would not matter since the outputs are balanced and strong.
> 
> - You get a high resolution music capable DAC for your CarPC.
> 
> - You get a high quality balanced/unbalanced line driver that goes to the same output that your digital input and PC media goes to. Good for OEM head units that have a line out option but that is too low for the MS-8 to accept. You run it though the EMU0404 and make it a 4 volt balanced output. [For this app you would have to add a high quality rotary source select on the head unit outputs so that you can cut and short the inputs on the emu when playing from another input (ie spdif or PC). Same goes the other way around, you need to pause the digital source while playing the head unit.] This is because all inputs are on at all times.
> 
> Not that much to ask considering you would have to go through a multi step function process to switch inputs on the MS-8 if you were to just send the output from a head unit to one of its inputs and the spdif to analog out to another one of its inputs when using that configuration. Plus you would loose the line driver capabilities.
> 
> - For real simple configurations such as one with a OEM head unit and an AUX input into the MS-8. You have the ability to send the balanced output from your portable devices S/PDIF conversion into the AUX in on the MS-8 and not have to worry about clipping its 2 volt max input. Just simply turn down the analog attenuator on the EMU till the MS-8's input does not clip.
> 
> - You get a bunch of pro editing and recording software that you can use to record an analog source on the fly such as a radio show or a MIX that you really like.
> 
> - You get a high resolution measuring instrument with a high quality mic preamp to measure anything and everything under the sun. From your cars acoustic properties to your mobile phones analog output quality. All mobile by the way.
> 
> - You get a high quality headphone amp that you can use to instantly monitor a source. For instance when you are tuning you can monitor the track though some high quality headphones to see how that track was intended to sound tonally. Get an instant accurate point of reference.
> 
> - Thanks to the high quality analog output you get a pristine way of sending subscription music tracks from a CarPC to the MS-8. Or from a high quality yet low output voltage (ie typically .5 volts) subscription capable portable player.
> 
> Did I forget anything?



For those going to use a CarPc or have a HU with Digital out and want to bypass the onboad DAC of the HU, there is a wonderful DAC (I use it at home and sound awesome) that could be feeded by coaxial or optical and have two fixed and two with gain control RCA outputs. It is powered by a 12v PSU.

Beresford Media & Electronics

It sounds really well, its cheap and small.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Hernan said:


> For those going to use a CarPc or have a HU with Digital out and want to bypass the onboad DAC of the HU, there is a wonderful DAC (I use it at home and sound awesome) that could be feeded by coaxial or optical and have two fixed and two with gain control RCA outputs. It is powered by a 12v PSU.
> 
> Beresford Media & Electronics
> 
> It sounds really well, its cheap and small.


People should know that that DAC only has 1 volt rms out. So make sure your amplifier can handle that max input voltage without becoming noisy.


----------



## Hernan

t3sn4f2 said:


> People should know that that DAC only has 1 volt rms out. So make sure your amplifier can handle that max input voltage without becoming noisy.


My Marantz Power amp feels good with that.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Hernan said:


> My Marantz Power amp feels good with that.


Many amps do.....and many don't.


----------



## Hernan

t3sn4f2 said:


> Many amps do.....and many don't.


Yep. But believe me, it is a stellar product for the price.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Hernan said:


> Yep. But believe me, it is a stellar product for the price.


Curious, but how are you doing master volume control?

Nevermind, I missed the variable outputs.


----------



## eviling

I was looking at the pictures, how do you select the hipass and low pass outs and full range ours? do you do it all in the control unit? and how many rca in's does it need, are they directly related, is 1 in, 1 out? or can you send in a 2 channel rca in and the unit will process and decode the music into 8 channels?


----------



## t3sn4f2

eviling said:


> I was looking at the pictures, how do you select the hipass and low pass outs and full range ours? do you do it all in the control unit? and how many rca in's does it need, are they directly related, is 1 in, 1 out? or can you send in a 2 channel rca in and the unit will process and decode the music into 8 channels?


It's all in the manual.


----------



## eviling

t3sn4f2 said:


> It's all in the manual.


where is that in the 20 million posts in this thread


----------



## t3sn4f2

eviling said:


> where is that in the 20 million posts in this thread


MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service


----------



## eviling

t3sn4f2 said:


> MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service


I didn't accutaly expect the instructions to explain it as fast it did to me :surprised: right now i have to focus on my bills for a bit, but soon enough i will surly pick this unit up.


it's not a limited time release or anything like that? idk why, but units that do this much seem to never last long on the market, the several i've found that are capable of such feats have all been discontinued


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> IIRC it's something like this, but I could be wrong.
> 
> View attachment 18444


Right.


----------



## 14642

Gary Mac said:


> How do you know when its coming if we pre-ordered???


Enough units have passed incoming quality that your pre-orders should begin shipping on Monday.


----------



## quality_sound

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Enough units have passed incoming quality that your pre-orders should begin shipping on Monday.


This just made my _incredibly_ ****ty weekend a WHOLE lot more bearable.


----------



## 14642

trigg007 said:


> I hope you're right; can anyone confirm?
> 
> Also, is there anything else available (literature) with more detail in what you can/can't do with the MS8. I've read both the MS8 manual and the Bit1.1 manual. To me MS8 seems like "set it & forget it" versus the BIT.1 being more of a nightmare to tune for those of us who just want to enjoy the music. Don't get me wrong, according to the manuals, the Bit1.1 appears to have substantially more processing power, or atleast the manual is considerably more informative (IMO). What are the crossover options? Can the time correction be tweaked/changed versus the autotune feature, etc...


Yes, you can't change the target function but you can retune with a second 31-band EQ. Since the channels will already have been matched and tuned separately with the auto EQ, there's no need for separate right and left channel EQs for retuning. You can simply draw the adjustments you want to make and those adjustments will be applied equally to all channels. It works great. 

I just remembered I have some documentation on the EQ 31-band EQ that you may find interesting. 

Most graphic EQs don't give you what you may think you're getting. depending on the Q values that are chosen for the filters, the sum of adjacent band adjustments may be flat or they may have little dips in between the boosts. Many of them have qs that are wide enough not to produce those little peaks and valleys, but then the sum of the adjacent filters produces far more boost or cut that you might expect. Here's an example below.

In this EQ, boosting one band provides an expected response:










Boosting 2 adjacent bands deviates a little from theexpected response--if you look closely, you'll see that there's actually more boost than 6dB.










If we continue boosting adjacent bands, this is what you get:










In this example, boosting a bunch of bands gives you twice the boost when the results are compared to the slider controls. 

In the example below, clearly what you get is not what you may have intended:










So, when you choose an EQ and try to use it, it's helpful to know something about the design. This detail isn't always provided and it can make tuning a real pain in the butt. A graphic EQ can be designed with higher Q values to make the adjustment bands narrower, but there's always some error. 

MS-8's 31-band graphic works differently. When you adjust bands, the EQ adjusts the adjacent bands automatically to match the response to your intended response. In the three examples below, the little green circles represent the slider controls. the red line represents the output of the EQ and the automatic adjustment of the adjacent bands is represented in the top graphs. 

The three examples below are response shapes that are very difficult, if not impossible, to make with any graphic EQ I've ever used--digital or analog. I can't even imagine the amount of time it might take to implement these with an analog EQ.










The wiggly red line at the bottom is just noise. Doesn't reeally appear in the output.Granted, there's some wiggle at the top, but it probably won't be audible. 










In this one, there's a little wiggle between 200 and 500 Hz, but it's less than 1dB. 










So...with the autotune that "fixes" the car, and this EQ which is a pretty accurate drawing tool, you ought to be able to make the car sound great easily without a bunch of hassles.


----------



## trevordj

^Thank you for that info Andy. 

Oh and the fact that my MS-8 is (hopefully) shipping Monday:

epper: epper: epper: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :faint: :faint:


----------



## michaelsil1

Thanks Andy! 

It's almost time for a new thread.


----------



## less

Overall, this looks like a great product... I'm even playing with getting one, but I find it interesting that the introduction of this product seems to have spurred a change in a mindset that I thought was common held in the audio world. Several people believe that speakers placed all around them will produce a potentially superior musical experience and that runs counter to everything I've read/learned over the past several years. So, I'd love direction to information sources that might change my beliefs too. 

Success competitors, speaker designers, audio buffs and DIY car installers seemed to me to almost universally believe that the "ideal" system would consist of a single speaker/sound source on each side of the listener to keep from confusing the brains ability to develop a musical stage in front of the listener. Studio designers spend oodles of money angling walls, installing bass traps, etc. to minimize reflectioned sound. Those using the wide-band, or full-range drivers for mids, do so to keep the sonic cues confined to a single source. It would seem like the old Bose "stereo everywhere" and "direct-reflecting" sound theories would have taken over the audiophile world if that were the case.

I'm not being a smart azz here. If 5.1 can result in a more pleasing listening experience, I'd love to learn the theories behind why this is true. There are some great minds out there that have helped me learn a lot. Feel free to PM/email me if you'd prefer. 

Jim

BTW - where should a person who is interested look for a good price on these? (authorized)


----------



## lycan

lots more good reading about equalizers ... including "Constant Q" ... from our friends at Rane :

Constant-Q Graphic Equalizers

Operator Adjustable Equalizers: An Overview


----------



## 14642

less said:


> Overall, this looks like a great product... I'm even playing with getting one, but I find it interesting that the introduction of this product seems to have spurred a change in a mindset that I thought was common held in the audio world. Several people believe that speakers placed all around them will produce a potentially superior musical experience and that runs counter to everything I've read/learned over the past several years. So, I'd love direction to information sources that might change my beliefs too.
> 
> Success competitors, speaker designers, audio buffs and DIY car installers seemed to me to almost universally believe that the "ideal" system would consist of a single speaker/sound source on each side of the listener to keep from confusing the brains ability to develop a musical stage in front of the listener. Studio designers spend oodles of money angling walls, installing bass traps, etc. to minimize reflectioned sound. Those using the wide-band, or full-range drivers for mids, do so to keep the sonic cues confined to a single source. It would seem like the old Bose "stereo everywhere" and "direct-reflecting" sound theories would have taken over the audiophile world if that were the case.
> 
> I'm not being a smart azz here. If 5.1 can result in a more pleasing listening experience, I'd love to learn the theories behind why this is true. There are some great minds out there that have helped me learn a lot. Feel free to PM/email me if you'd prefer.
> 
> Jim
> 
> BTW - where should a person who is interested look for a good price on these? (authorized)


 
Floyd Toole offers a pretty comprehensive and readable explanation of the benefits of multi-channel vs. 2-channel in his recent book, "Sound Reproduction". You can buy it at amazon.


----------



## mmiller

less said:


> Overall, this looks like a great product... I'm even playing with getting one, but I find it interesting that the introduction of this product seems to have spurred a change in a mindset that I thought was common held in the audio world. Several people believe that speakers placed all around them will produce a potentially superior musical experience and that runs counter to everything I've read/learned over the past several years. So, I'd love direction to information sources that might change my beliefs too.
> 
> Success competitors, speaker designers, audio buffs and DIY car installers seemed to me to almost universally believe that the "ideal" system would consist of a single speaker/sound source on each side of the listener to keep from confusing the brains ability to develop a musical stage in front of the listener. Studio designers spend oodles of money angling walls, installing bass traps, etc. to minimize reflectioned sound. Those using the wide-band, or full-range drivers for mids, do so to keep the sonic cues confined to a single source. It would seem like the old Bose "stereo everywhere" and "direct-reflecting" sound theories would have taken over the audiophile world if that were the case.
> 
> I'm not being a smart azz here. If 5.1 can result in a more pleasing listening experience, I'd love to learn the theories behind why this is true. There are some great minds out there that have helped me learn a lot. Feel free to PM/email me if you'd prefer.
> 
> Jim
> 
> BTW - where should a person who is interested look for a good price on these? (authorized)


I have heard of a few of the Biggest names in Competition playing with Tweeters and such in the rear of the vehicle.... I have a good idea if who these people are, but my lips are sealed.. we see id they wanna chime in or not.....


----------



## bhaycraft

Hey Andy,

Is this going to work well with say the OEM Navigation system with sync from Ford as I really don't want to dump the factory head. I plan to replace all the amplification with JL HD or XD amps and speakers and sub and I am entertaining the idea of adding a center and rear surround on the D pillar of an Extended length Ford Expedition. I might use some of the built in amp from the MS-8 for the rear surround. Thanks


----------



## 14642

bhaycraft said:


> Hey Andy,
> 
> Is this going to work well with say the OEM Navigation system with sync from Ford as I really don't want to dump the factory head. I plan to replace all the amplification with JL HD or XD amps and speakers and sub and I am entertaining the idea of adding a center and rear surround on the D pillar of an Extended length Ford Expedition. I might use some of the built in amp from the MS-8 for the rear surround. Thanks


That's what MS-8 is for. Should work great.


----------



## Dangerranger

hey thanks for the charts and such Andy  I'm throwing my MS-8 order in in a few weeks


----------



## 14642

mmiller said:


> I have heard of a few of the Biggest names in Competition playing with Tweeters and such in the rear of the vehicle.... I have a good idea if who these people are, but my lips are sealed.. we see id they wanna chime in or not.....


 
OH MY GOD! TWEETERS IN THE BACK! OH THE HORROR! 
Don't let that secret get out or everyone will be doing it. Hey, if they're IASCA competitors, they can probably get about 1500 "upgrade" points for that.


----------



## 14642

Oh, maybe I misunderstood. I used to play with my girlfriend's tweeters in the back seat too.


----------



## mmiller

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> OH MY GOD! TWEETERS IN THE BACK! OH THE HORROR!
> Don't let that secret get out or everyone will be doing it. Hey, if they're IASCA competitors, they can probably get about 1500 "upgrade" points for that.


LMAO......And yeah they compete in Iasca.... I think. and I think they get 2200 points Andy, LOL.


----------



## blackreplica

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Nope, it isn't, but our distributor in Singapore, IMS, has a few units, I think.


Andy,

thanks a lot. Will give them a call when the offices open tomorrow. cant wait to get this thing installed in the car. Hopefully it will be available for purchase really soon. Just out of curiosity, those few units they have which you mention, are they for sale or just for testing by them?


----------



## ALL4SQ

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Floyd Toole offers a pretty comprehensive and readable explanation of the benefits of multi-channel vs. 2-channel in his recent book, "Sound Reproduction". You can buy it at amazon.


Thanks Andy, I just ordered a copy.


----------



## michaelsil1

lycan said:


> lots more good reading about equalizers ... including "Constant Q" ... from our friends at Rane :
> 
> Constant-Q Graphic Equalizers
> 
> Operator Adjustable Equalizers: An Overview


Thank you!


----------



## lycan

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Oh, maybe I misunderstood. I used to play with my girlfriend's tweeters in the back seat too.


jessica ... rabbit ?


----------



## Hernan

Is an official release date?
When it should be available?
Thanks!


----------



## t3sn4f2

Hernan said:


> Is an official release date?
> When it should be available?
> Thanks!


Si, mañana.


----------



## Hernan

t3sn4f2 said:


> Si, mañana.


A qué hora?


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Floyd Toole offers a pretty comprehensive and readable explanation of the benefits of multi-channel vs. 2-channel in his recent book, "Sound Reproduction". You can buy it at amazon.




found interesting this paper about *stereo vs multichannel audio *http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/technology/whitepapers/audio_art_science.pdf by dr Toole 

even if concenring some of his views, eg about "handy-dandy" equalizers, would be interesting to have your opinion ..


----------



## quality_sound

Tracking number: 1Z6909F80315194309 
Carrier: 
5/23/2010


----------



## trevordj

quality_sound said:


> Tracking number: 1Z6909F80315194309
> Carrier:
> 5/23/2010


Boo-ya! Me too!!!!

Tracking number: 1Z6909F803****265 Carrier: 
5/23/2010

If this doesn't kick me in the ass to finish my car, I don't know what will.


----------



## thehatedguy

Paul is that for the one you are sending me?

I told the wife I wanted on for father's day, but I doubt her and the kids can splurge on one...lol.


----------



## AdamS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I just remembered I have some documentation on the EQ 31-band EQ that you may find interesting.


Andy's data is a little old. We reduced the minor ripple > ~12 KHz even further.


----------



## quality_sound

thehatedguy said:


> Paul is that for the one you are sending me?
> 
> I told the wife I wanted on for father's day, but I doubt her and the kids can splurge on one...lol.


That's why I ordered it for myself Jason. That way they can stick to the usual toys and video games for father's day. I like to make it easy for them.  

Now I just need to see how I can get it in the car. Even the HDs don't fit where I wanted to put them.


----------



## kaigoss69

quality_sound said:


> That's why I ordered it for myself Jason. That way they can stick to the usual toys and video games for father's day. I like to make it easy for them.
> 
> Now I just need to see how I can get it in the car. Even the HDs don't fit where I wanted to put them.


Why not? I dry-fitted my HD600/4 under the 335 trunk floor and it seemed to fit fine. I'm sure I could put a couple down there. However, I'm a bit concerned about ventilation! Not sure about the MS-8, I'd probably put it under the hat shelf.


----------



## quality_sound

kaigoss69 said:


> Why not? I dry-fitted my HD600/4 under the 335 trunk floor and it seemed to fit fine. I'm sure I could put a couple down there. However, I'm a bit concerned about ventilation! Not sure about the MS-8, I'd probably put it under the hat shelf.


The trunk floor storage area is _drastically_ different between the 328, 335, and M3. The number and size of the mufflers is what makes the difference. I have 2" of height, which is fine, but the problem is the shape. It's just not suited to square amps.


----------



## kaigoss69

quality_sound said:


> The trunk floor storage area is _drastically_ different between the 328, 335, and M3. The number and size of the mufflers is what makes the difference. I have 2" of height, which is fine, but the problem is the shape. It's just not suited to square amps.


Ok, I thought 335 and M3 had similar trunk floors. In my 330 I had the HD600/4 mounted under the hat shelf, which was a great location for that amp.


----------



## quality_sound

I was planning on using a Stealthbox because it's easily removable so that space isn't really usable. Plus I REALLY don't want to drill into the car. This ain't no VW! lol 

But in a quick look, I think I can stack the amps in the OEM ampo location. Possibly the MS-8 as well.


----------



## stuckinok

I should of kept my ass out of this Thread! Wife is going to be pissed when she sees the credit card statment.


----------



## thehatedguy

I know, and I would have myself...the shop I was (yes was) tinting at closed, so back to being unemployed. Maybe if my wife's new venture works out we will have few bucks while I job search.



quality_sound said:


> That's why I ordered it for myself Jason. That way they can stick to the usual toys and video games for father's day. I like to make it easy for them.
> 
> Now I just need to see how I can get it in the car. Even the HDs don't fit where I wanted to put them.


----------



## newtitan

ALL4SQ said:


> Thanks Andy, I just ordered a copy.


\


heres a google preview


Sound reproduction: loudspeakers and ... - Google Books


----------



## M&MBlue

quality_sound said:


> I REALLY don't want to drill into the car. This ain't no VW!


If you lived in the K-town area (KMC) as long as I did... you'd think... Its just another BMW


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> OK, now that my butt has recovered from 15 hours in the same chair yesterday, here goes.
> 
> Every few milliseconds, Logic 7 computes a steering angle by determining a couple of things about the stereo signal. Left, right and center steering is determined by level differences between left and right signals. Mono information--the information that's common to left and right--is steered to the center. Don't confuse mono as L+R for what's actually going on here. Although this isn't how it's done, you could think of the mono info as (L+R)-lL-Rl. It's all of the sound minus the sound that appears only in the left or the right. That mono information is also attenuated in the left and the right. The amount of that information that appears in left and right is an important part of making this thing sound great in cars. If the information is completely removed from left and right, then I don't think it works very well in cars. The images are spot on, but they're really small and don't sound believable, to me. If the mono information isn't attenuated at all, then the stage is narrowed a bit and the images are big and kind of nebulous. Left of center and right of center aren't very accurate. Attenuating the mono signal in left and right by 6dB works great and that's what MS-8's L7 does.
> 
> The front-to-rear steering angle is computed by determining the phase relationship between left and right. -180 degrees steers to the rear. -90 degrees steers about halfway between front and rear. The level differences between left and right determine rear left and right steering.
> 
> Finally, when information is steered front, one of the rear and side channels is polarity-swapped. This helps to anchor front steered sounds in the front, and that's why sides and rears shouldn't make a bunch of midbass. That out-of-phase condition in the back works for imaging, but not for midbass. Fortunately, we all want the midbass to sound like it comes from the front, so it's just easier to make sure that it does.
> 
> Side and rear are also delayed by several milliseconds, but rear is delayed more.
> 
> Very low frequencies are not steered. They're simple stereo.
> 
> Here's a set of drawings that sort of illustrates this. The first one illustrates what you can expect from a L+R center.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here's a simplification of what happens with L7:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, when you implement this in a car, here are some pointers:
> 
> 1. Sides and rears don't have to make bass. I use a 3" and a tweeter in the back and a 6" component system in the sides, but they're crossed over at 100Hz, 4th order. The 6" speakers in the sides are overkill, but that's what fit in the doors.
> 
> 2. It's helpful if the side and rear tweeters are at about ear level. Don't mount them in the bottom of the doors.
> 
> 3. If you won't put 4 speakers in the back and you'll use only 2 instead, MS-8 will process them as sides. That's no problem and the difference between 5.1 and 7.1 is really hard to hear. It's nice to have rears and sides if you'll have rear seat passengers. Logic 7 in OE systems mixes some front-steered information into the sides, so the rear seat passengers have their own stage at the back of the front seats. Making those adjustments is car and speaker-location dependent and it's seriously difficult to do without screwing everything else up. MS-8 will provide a single stage, located at or in front of the dashboard for all seating positions. I prefer that and it happens automatically and easily when the front seats are right.
> 
> 4. Front steering works perfectly for all frequencies that the center channel will play and pathlengths don't matter much. For midbass frequencies that the left and right will play but the center channel won't, pathlengths are critical. A phantom center has to be generated for those sounds. If your center channel is a 3" and you have big-ass 8" speakers for right and left mounted in your doors, there's gonna be trouble.
> 
> 5. The subwoofer level control in MS-8 isn't a level control for the subwoofer output channels. It's a shelving filter that boosts bass in ALL channels below 60Hz, but never above 160 Hz. When you boost or cut, the slope of the filter is adjusted. This helps to maintain the illusion of bass up front by sending the appropriate amount of midbass to the front speakers and bass to the subwoofers. It also maintains the crossover point. Here are a couple of graphs that illustrate this and why it's better.
> 
> The first one is a conventional control. It's pretty obvious why this moves the image of the bass to the back and sounds boomy. There's too much interaction between sub and midbass. This is why people claim that "underlapping" the bass is important and why so many people try to get big-assed midbass drivers in the front of the car and cross the sub at 50Hz. With MS-8, that's totally unnecessary, and the evidence of that is in the second graph.
> 
> I use a pair of 6" speakers driven by about 40 watts in the doors, another one in the center channel and a 500 watt amp on a pair of cheesy 10" woofers in an IB in the rear deck. The bass is seriously anchored to the front and the midbass is great. No hassles, no constant tweaking and I can boost bass by as much as 10dB on top of the target curve (which is a total of about 20dB) without the image shifting to the rear. I think my crossover point is about 80Hz, 4th order.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, this feature is also included in the MS-Amps using a wireless rotary control that can be paired to any number of bass and full range amps in the system.
> 
> So, for front right left and center, you'd be better off with three 5" speakers (R,L, and C) than with 8s in the doors and a 3 in the center. If all you can get in the center is a 3", then try to move the midbass to the kick panels. If you can't do either, the car will still sound great, but the image for center-steered midbass sounds will be larger than it should be and will be biased a little bit to the side on which you sit. Not such a big deal.


Bumping this for anyone who missed it......


----------



## ibanzil

There is a video of a ms8 in action on YouTube now.


----------



## trevordj

ibanzil said:


> There is a video of a ms8 in action on YouTube now.


----------



## quality_sound

M&MBlue said:


> If you lived in the K-town area (KMC) as long as I did... you'd think... Its just another BMW


The difference being it's _my_ BMW. I'm really not a fan of drilling any car if I can help it. One of my OCD things.


----------



## Thaid and Bound

So when does the MS-9 (or MS-10 for that matter) come out?

Some of us would like to have a 3-way active front stage, _plus_ rear fill and sub


----------



## alachua

Does that video mean that the MS8 will be sold at Best Buy?


----------



## rakisto

uhhh i do not think so. im pretty sure that was brought to a BBy install bay. As best buy employees we dont even have access to JBL Car EPP... only infinity  grrrr


----------



## t3sn4f2

Thaid and Bound said:


> So when does the MS-9 (or MS-10 for that matter) come out?
> 
> Some of us would like to have a 3-way active front stage, _plus_ rear fill and sub


You can, all you need to do is run the mids and highs together of an active or passive crossover after the MS-8. Not the midbass and midrange, the midrange and tweeter. Leave the midbass to it's own dedicated channel on the MS-8. That will leave you with a center option as well.


----------



## t3sn4f2

trevordj said:


>


Is that the shop radio playing in the background? During calibration! 

I hope they turn it off and put the hyenas in another room for the fine tuning cal. :laugh: 

I wonder how many people will actually calibrate the MS-8 with the windows closed and the car turned off. Am I going to pass out before the session completes or are there breaks in between where I could open the windows and breath for a bit?


----------



## Thaid and Bound

t3sn4f2 said:


> You can, all you need to do is run the mids and highs together of an active or passive crossover after the MS-8. Not the midbass and midrange, the midrange and tweeter. Leave the midbass to it's own dedicated channel on the MS-8. That will leave you with a center option as well.


Except you lose the individual driver optimizations of course (EQ/Time). Ok ok, time doesn't matter a hoot if your tweeters are crossed high enough, but there is the point of adding more noise and losing S/N due to more (and more) components in the signal chain.

Perhaps an MS-8 with a MiniDSP (or two) is the answer?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Thaid and Bound said:


> Except you lose the individual driver optimizations of course (EQ/Time). Ok ok, time doesn't matter a hoot if your tweeters are crossed high enough, but there is the point of adding more noise and losing S/N due to more (and more) components in the signal chain.
> 
> Perhaps an MS-8 with a MiniDSP (or two) is the answer?


Yeah I assumed that he mid and tweeter would be together on the dash or the kick, in which case the T/A would not be needed between the two. But I can see a case where it would be needed with a mid deep in he kicks and a low playing tweeter in the sails. Although, in that case I imagine you could then join the midbass and midrange into the same MS-8 output and run the tweeter on its own for T/A benefits.

I don't really think you would loose EQ since the MS-8 would treat the combine response from both drivers as one and EQ it appropriately. 

I also don't see how noise would increase. All you are doing is splitting outputs internally or externally with a y connector and enabling a crossover function on the amp. That doesn't add noticable noise.


----------



## Grim0013

This is gonna kill me. They would have to ship during the week I'm moving... Now it'll be a week before I can even think about getting started on the (full) install. Not that I'm upset it's coming sooner than expected. As they say though, a soldier (or sailor or marine) isn't happy unless he has something to ***** about.


----------



## Grim0013

t3sn4f2 said:


> Yeah I assumed that he mid and tweeter would be together on the dash or the kick, in which case the T/A would not be needed between the two. But I can see a case where it would be needed with a mid deep in he kicks and a low playing tweeter in the sails. Although, in that case I imagine you could then join the midbass and midrange into the same MS-8 output and run the tweeter on its own for T/A benefits.
> 
> I don't really think you would loose EQ since the MS-8 would treat the combine response from both drivers as one and EQ it appropriately.
> 
> I also don't see how noise would increase. All you are doing is splitting outputs internally or externally with a y connector and enabling a crossover function on the amp. That doesn't add noticable noise.


Andy addressed this scenario a while back. I don't have time to dig it up right now, but the gist of it was just as t3 said: Do the mid/high x-over externally (active or passive) and do the midbass via MS-8. The t/a should be fine. As to the EQ, it shouldn't make any difference. Of course, I am not the pro, better to get it from the horse's mouth.


----------



## quality_sound

Thaid and Bound said:


> Except you lose the individual driver optimizations of course (EQ/Time). Ok ok, time doesn't matter a hoot if your tweeters are crossed high enough, but there is the point of adding more noise and losing S/N due to more (and more) components in the signal chain.
> 
> Perhaps an MS-8 with a MiniDSP (or two) is the answer?


T/A doesn't work worth a crap at tweeter frequencies so you're not really losing anything by going passive between the mid/tweeter.


----------



## Se7en

Woohoo! Mine is in transit. ETA 5/26!


----------



## ErinH

quality_sound said:


> T/A doesn't work worth a crap at tweeter frequencies so you're not really losing anything by going passive between the mid/tweeter.


I disagree. I've found first hand that t/a at the higher frequencies can lend itself to phasing issues. I know, I know, ILD/ITD... but I've sat in a few cars and tuned and can hear when the phase gets right with a tweeter between L/R... it's like things just 'click', in a literal sense.


----------



## t3sn4f2

bikinpunk said:


> I disagree. I've found first hand that t/a at the higher frequencies can lend itself to phasing issues. I know, I know, ILD/ITD... but I've sat in a few cars and tuned and can hear when the phase gets right with a tweeter between L/R... it's like things just 'click', in a literal sense.


How about between drivers in probable locations on the same side. For instance left tweeter in the sail and left mid in the kick. I _guessing_ in those situtations it's not about having the sound get to your ear at the close enough times but instead to fix phase issues at the crossover region?


----------



## quality_sound

bikinpunk said:


> I disagree. I've found first hand that t/a at the higher frequencies can lend itself to phasing issues. I know, I know, ILD/ITD... but I've sat in a few cars and tuned and can hear when the phase gets right with a tweeter between L/R... it's like things just 'click', in a literal sense.


I agree, you can hear very small phase differences with T/A, but you can't actually align them, as you say.


----------



## Se7en

cajunner said:


> is your car ready?


The car is ready for 2 channel.

I'm not 100% on swapping out the BitOne yet and may decide not to go with a center channel.

The initial setup and evalluation should be pretty straight forward. A permanant install will be more involved. 

I will start out by trying it in stereo using 7 of the 8 outputs from the MS8. 

I have 14 amplified channels available although none of them have their own XOs. I do however have 2 BitOnes at my disposal and the the car has been completely pre-wired (all dash locations, rear deck, rear doors + the 2way kicks, front doors & Sub which is the current install). 

As of right now the main issue is the fact that I have very little free time from work.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Se7en said:


> Woohoo! Mine is in transit. ETA 5/26!


Whoohoooo for tomorrow!


----------



## Se7en

cajunner said:


> so you'll be taking tomorrow afternoon off, right?
> 
> if you have full range center dash, you would have everything you need, right?
> 
> you could do the full 7.1 with the doors and rears.


I wish I could take tomorrow off. I'm currently working 7/12s. If I'm lucky, I may be able to take a 1/2 day on Saturday.

Unfortunately my factory center channel has room for a 3"-4" driver tops. Technically speaking my current install is the worst configuration for the MS8, given my large door mounted mid-bass and small kick panel mid drivers. Channel steering to a 3" driver will be less than optimum. Also, I'm not prepared to take a hack saw to the dash in my car at this time.

My thinking is that I will probably roll with a 2 channel system, optimized for single seat and look at the benefits of having rear fill.

The first evaluation will be to determine the signal quality of the MS8 over the BitOne as well as the benefits of the auto-EQ. I'm not prepared to pull my trunk apart until I've heard the MS8 in action.


----------



## quality_sound

cajunner said:


> I don't know what you mean by phase differences, are you saying that you can tell when the impulse response of a tweeter comes and goes out of alignment with the mids, or something else?
> 
> Time Alignment is when you delay a speaker's output to arrive at the same time at the listener position.
> 
> perhaps what is going on, is that the adjustment in milliseconds, or even microseconds, is simply too great in most processors, the jump between settings is too wide, to accommodate the 5k on up region, and by changing phase you can bring the tweeter closer to the ideal...
> 
> which doesn't make sense to me, because changing phase on a tweeter is like saying if you move your head 2 inches, you've just traveled 360 degrees in phase anyway...
> 
> at midrange and lower frequencies, phase plays a large part due to the relative length of the wave, but at tweeter frequencies I can't see how that matters as much as time alignment itself, a full wave that's 1 millisecond long would constitute a 1000 hz tone, which is like what, roughly 1 foot long? What is 5000 hz, then?
> 
> from what I've read, having time alignment is most important in the sail panel/A-pillar install, due to having large pathlength differences, but you have to make the choice, and since musical intensity is centered on the vocal range, that would be most important to get right. Everything that comes after is less important, maybe the MS-8 has design compromises that occur at the highest levels, but if it's sweeping the floor in competition, is it really that important?


It didn't make much sense to me either until Lycan did a VERY good post about IID/ITD. Basically, at higher frequencies T/A is almost worthless and level differences are the most effective way to balance them.


----------



## xcoldricex

for those adding a center - how should the center channel be oriented? the center channels i've seen usually are on the dash facing up - would it be better to be facing forward where the HU usually sits? will sound stage be pulled down if it's mounted below the HU? or perhaps overhead?


----------



## Se7en

Cajunner,

I'd say that my system is probably at 70-75% but currently has had little to no EQ. Tonality is pretty great as is, staging is good with a few anomolies that I'm chasing down, but levels, XO points and TA are pretty much locked in and the system sounds pretty good.

I have a fairly sophisticated room correction system in my home and suspect that the impact from the MS8s Auto EQ will be dramatic (if it's half as good as my Tact). 

What concerns me the most is how transparent all of the processing will be in my system. One thing that I've learned from the Tact system is that there is a notable loss of resolution the more corrective processing is required. I still spend hours doing an analog setup (level adjustments, subwoofer blending, speaker placement) with my two channel system to ensure that the Tact is doing as little as possible.

I hope that I answered your question.



cajunner said:


> If you don't mind, could you approximate how dialed in you believe your system is (to your own tastes, of course) right now?
> 
> I'd like to be able to be there, when the MS-8 does it's thing and you hear something different or if it's the same, and whether you are going to accept that curve as being better than what you have now...
> 
> it's going to make for some interesting posting around here, I can just see it now..


----------



## trevordj

xcoldricex said:


> for those adding a center - how should the center channel be oriented? the center channels i've seen usually are on the dash facing up - would it be better to be facing forward where the HU usually sits? will sound stage be pulled down if it's mounted below the HU? or perhaps overhead?


You can check out my build log the orientation of my center channel (I have been building my system from day one to be optimized for the MS-8). After a few messages back and forth with Andy, this was the best orientation for my particular car. Granted mine came with a factory center channel (3" midrange and tweeter). I replaced the stock speakers and added a midbass (will now be running 3 way quasi-active center). 

From what Andy said, you want your center to reproduce as much of the frequency range as possible. Any midbass frequencies not played by the center channel will be steered to the front midbass. This is not a big deal iirc as long as there is not a huge disparity between the low frequency reproduction capabilities of the center vs. the fronts. He specifically said if you are running big ass 8" woofers in your doors and a 3" midrange for a center channel there will be problems.


----------



## Hernan

trevordj said:


> You can check out my build log the orientation of my center channel (I have been building my system from day one to be optimized for the MS-8). After a few messages back and forth with Andy, this was the best orientation for my particular car. Granted mine came with a factory center channel (3" midrange and tweeter). I replaced the stock speakers and added a midbass (will now be running 3 way quasi-active center).
> 
> From what Andy said, you want your center to reproduce as much of the frequency range as possible. Any midbass frequencies not played by the center channel will be steered to the front midbass. This is not a big deal iirc as long as there is not a huge disparity between the low frequency reproduction capabilities of the center vs. the fronts. He specifically said if you are running big ass 8" woofers in your doors and a 3" midrange for a center channel there will be problems.


This is not an easy call. Having a center that could keep with your midbasses.. You need a good 5,5 in a perfect enclosure at least.


----------



## rcurley55

trevordj said:


> He specifically said if you are running big ass 8" woofers in your doors and a 3" midrange for a center channel there will be problems.


This is what he said:

_So, for front right left and center, you'd be better off with three 5" speakers (R,L, and C) than with 8s in the doors and a 3 in the center. If all you can get in the center is a 3", then try to move the midbass to the kick panels. If you can't do either, the car will still sound great, but the image for center-steered midbass sounds will be larger than it should be and will be biased a little bit to the side on which you sit. *Not such a big deal.*_

I think people are WAYYYYY overstating the potential problems seeing that this is how the JBL BMW is setup (8" MB under the seats, 4" center channel). Just my $0.02 - I'm looking forward to ordering this thing


----------



## xcoldricex

trevordj said:


> You can check out my build log the orientation of my center channel (I have been building my system from day one to be optimized for the MS-8). After a few messages back and forth with Andy, this was the best orientation for my particular car. Granted mine came with a factory center channel (3" midrange and tweeter). I replaced the stock speakers and added a midbass (will now be running 3 way quasi-active center).
> 
> From what Andy said, you want your center to reproduce as much of the frequency range as possible. Any midbass frequencies not played by the center channel will be steered to the front midbass. This is not a big deal iirc as long as there is not a huge disparity between the low frequency reproduction capabilities of the center vs. the fronts. He specifically said if you are running big ass 8" woofers in your doors and a 3" midrange for a center channel there will be problems.


you've got quite the center channel setup, unfortunately i don't have any room to mount them like that and i already have a gauge pod in the center of the dash. i will also be running 8" speakers and horns, so finding something to keep up with them, that would fit somewhere is an issue


----------



## trevordj

rcurley55 said:


> This is what he said:
> 
> _So, for front right left and center, you'd be better off with three 5" speakers (R,L, and C) than with 8s in the doors and a 3 in the center. If all you can get in the center is a 3", then try to move the midbass to the kick panels. If you can't do either, the car will still sound great, but the image for center-steered midbass sounds will be larger than it should be and will be biased a little bit to the side on which you sit. *Not such a big deal.*_
> 
> I think people are WAYYYYY overstating the potential problems seeing that this is how the JBL BMW is setup (8" MB under the seats, 4" center channel). Just my $0.02 - I'm looking forward to ordering this thing


In the same post you are referring to: 



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ...
> 4. Front steering works perfectly for all frequencies that the center channel will play and pathlengths don't matter much. For midbass frequencies that the left and right will play but the center channel won't, pathlengths are critical. A phantom center has to be generated for those sounds. If your center channel is a 3" and you have big-ass 8" speakers for right and left mounted in your doors, there's gonna be trouble.


I had a series of messages back and forth with Andy and he recommended a center midbass in my particular application.


----------



## rcurley55

trevordj said:


> In the same post you are referring to:
> 
> 
> 
> I had a series of messages back and forth with Andy and he recommended a center midbass in my particular application.


I have no doubt that a center midbass would be recommended - all of the evidence on this thread and the theory behind the piece points to that recommendation. 

The second quote states that there will be a problem generating the phantom image - as the 3" isn't going to dig low enough to reproduce the mono midbass. The first quote states the overall effect of that lack of center midbass - that you will have near side bias. If it's being used this way in JBL's demo car that's been doing well in IASCA - I'd draw a pretty natural conclusion that it can't sound THAT bad 

Of course, I'm not privy to your conversation with Andy, nor have I discussed this situation with him directly.

BTW, I've been following your build log with much interest!


----------



## trevordj

rcurley55 said:


> I have no doubt that a center midbass would be recommended - all of the evidence on this thread and the theory behind the piece points to that recommendation.
> 
> The second quote states that there will be a problem generating the phantom image - as the 3" isn't going to dig low enough to reproduce the mono midbass. The first quote states the overall effect of that lack of center midbass - that you will have near side bias. If it's being used this way in JBL's demo car that's been doing well in IASCA - I'd draw a pretty natural conclusion that it can't sound THAT bad
> 
> Of course, I'm not privy to your conversation with Andy, nor have I discussed this situation with him directly.
> 
> BTW, I've been following your build log with much interest!


Ya, I have learned that there is rarely an "always" answer with regard to these things. I tried to qualify my answers with "in my particular situation" for that reason. If you are going to do a small center channel and large front midbasses it seems a kick panel install would be ideal to combat near side bias as you mentioned. 

I would be interested to hear a car with an MS-8 and only fronts (+/- rears) and a sub (no center) to compare it with one having a discrete center amont multiple other arrangements. My guess is any reasonably sane and well installed and planned out system with this will sound good but I wonder how different they will be. I am sure these questions will start being answered now that the first consumer units have shipped. 

I get mine TOMORROW!


----------



## rcurley55

trevordj said:


> Ya, I have learned that there is rarely an "always" answer with regard to these things. I tried to qualify my answers with "in my particular situation" for that reason. If you are going to do a small center channel and large front midbasses it seems a kick panel install would be ideal to combat near side bias as you mentioned.
> 
> I would be interested to hear a car with an MS-8 and only fronts (+/- rears) and a sub (no center) to compare it with one having a discrete center amont multiple other arrangements. My guess is any reasonably sane and well installed and planned out system with this will sound good but I wonder how different they will be. I am sure these questions will start being answered now that the first consumer units have shipped.
> 
> I get mine TOMORROW!


I agree - everything is a tradeoff and there's a sliding scale to how severe "problems" are.

From what I understand, the presets would allow you to do the comparison in your own car. You could do the following

Front + sub
Front + rear + sub
Front + center + sub
Front + center + rear + sub

That would allow you to compare - I have not read the users manual entirely, so I'm not sure if that's possible, but it would be sweet.

I plan on implementing the MS8 without a center channel FWIW. I'm also doubtful on the rears. I want the auto tuning. I'll add L7 in my next car


----------



## rain27

I love how this thread presents opposing viewpoints from the popular opinion and conventional thought on this site. I've only read from about fifty pages back, but so far Andy has mentioned that:

1. You don't need "big-ass" 8 inch midbass drivers in your doors to get upfront bass.
2. You don't need to crossover your sub at 40 and below.
3. Rear speakers can be a good thing.
4. A center channel can be incorporated to produce stereo sound effectively.

I'm sure there are several more I'm forgetting right now, but it's refreshing to have a different philosophy that goes against the prevailing trends.


----------



## trevordj

rcurley55 said:


> I agree - everything is a tradeoff and there's a sliding scale to how severe "problems" are.
> 
> From what I understand, the presets would allow you to do the comparison in your own car. You could do the following
> 
> Front + sub
> Front + rear + sub
> Front + center + sub
> Front + center + rear + sub
> 
> That would allow you to compare - I have not read the users manual entirely, so I'm not sure if that's possible, but it would be sweet.
> 
> I plan on implementing the MS8 without a center channel FWIW. I'm also doubtful on the rears. I want the auto tuning. I'll add L7 in my next car


IIRC you cannot set different presets with different speaker configurations as you mentioned (I thought it would be cool to do, mostly as a demo for stereo shops but also for my own curiosity). I suppose one could always run the 15min. setup again and compare


----------



## quality_sound

cajunner said:


> yeah, I remember reading that and I also remember reading that you can get your vertical cues from 2k on up.
> 
> so if you're getting vertical on 2k and up, and the size of the wavelength is such that the pinna of the ear takes precedence in localization, maybe we're conflicting theoreticals because most people who have A-pillar tweeters and kick mids say their setup sounds like ass unless they can delay the near side tweeter..
> 
> so I'm basically thinking that the phase is irrelevant but the delay is relevant.
> 
> If a cymbal crash is centered (both tweeters have same intensity) then the reproduction is as if you were listening to the band in a room with the back wall running close to you and the far side further back, if that makes sense.
> 
> If you are subject to Haas everywhere in a car, then it means that the difference in time to your ears will tilt everything in the near axis as if it's moving half of the stage towards you and the other half away, because you can't distinguish....
> 
> 
> wait a minute.
> 
> If Haas is dominant, then just lowering the near side intensity will do the trick...
> 
> well that just roughed me up, I was sure I could make the case for delay on the highs, but turns out it just makes the location of the drummer's ride and crash move perpendicular to the far side axis... towards the windshield, the further down you go on the left tweet gain, towards the center of the car going back up again... but delay, now that puts the drummer out on the hood...
> 
> hmmm... can't be...


All I can offer is that when I had my mids and tweeters were on the dash ANYTHING above 1-2KHz didn't move much, if at all, with T/A so that range was EQ'd. I DID plug the T/A in anyway just to be safe but it didn't really affect anything. The tweeters had small sonic differences with T/A changes but the image never moved without EQ and level adjustments.


----------



## lostthumb

Came home from work for lunch today and found this at my front door.

































Now all I need is free time to play with it.


----------



## Shocks

They left it unwrapped at your door? Congrats man, now hurry up and install the damn thing!!


----------



## thehatedguy

So who has theirs installed yet?


----------



## quality_sound

It wasn't even double-boxed?? That's that ********...


----------



## lostthumb

I wished it was double boxed. I like keeping original boxes in good shape.
I guess I am weird like that.


----------



## Gary Mac

my wife was working out in the yard today, knew the MS8 was supposed to be coming, so I said, hey wife "Im may be getting a new box of supplements(protein/vitamins), please bring the box in so the heat does not ruin them" wife says -"no problem", so the box comes, its not double boxed and my wife says, here is your stuff, does not look like supplements though. Me "hmmm, I wonder why they used a box like that, thanks for bringing it in." Not sure if I was caught or not......


----------



## Gary Mac

serious question, I actually have a factory center location, I am putting an aftermarket speaker in, but its only a 3.5" speaker. What would be a recommended high pass for that speaker in this set up?


----------



## godfathr

Andy,
I'm sure someone has asked this before, however I don't have alot of time to look through this long thread, so I will throw it out there.
Are the 8 channels assignable in the MS8? IE can you use rear channel for front midrange, front channel for tweeter, center outputs for midbass, and will it actively xover and time correct each individual driver? One of my clients asked this question and I thought it was a great question, but I didn't have the answer!
Thanks!
gf


----------



## AdamS

godfathr said:


> Andy,
> I'm sure someone has asked this before, however I don't have alot of time to look through this long thread, so I will throw it out there.
> Are the 8 channels assignable in the MS8? IE can you use rear channel for front midrange, front channel for tweeter, center outputs for midbass, and will it actively xover and time correct each individual driver? One of my clients asked this question and I thought it was a great question, but I didn't have the answer!
> Thanks!
> gf


There is no such thing as a 'rear channel', 'front channel', etc. All used channels must be mapped. Think of them as just channels 1-8 and map them per your system requirements.


----------



## manstretch

Who is going to use the MS-8 for a stereo front stage setup w/sub only? (ie: no center channel or rear speakers)


----------



## lostthumb

Looking closer at the unit, I am noticing scratch marks on the silver painted surfaces. From far away you do not notice it but it bugs me. I wonder if more units will come in this way. The packaging is pretty good. I guess this unit might be one of the lucky ones that went through their inspection department.


----------



## lostthumb

Gary Mac said:


> my wife was working out in the yard today, knew the MS8 was supposed to be coming, so I said, hey wife "Im may be getting a new box of supplements(protein/vitamins), please bring the box in so the heat does not ruin them" wife says -"no problem", so the box comes, its not double boxed and my wife says, here is your stuff, does not look like supplements though. Me "hmmm, I wonder why they used a box like that, thanks for bringing it in." Not sure if I was caught or not......


Good Luck Gary Mac!


----------



## lostthumb

manstretch said:


> Who is going to use the MS-8 for a stereo front stage setup w/sub only? (ie: no center channel or rear speakers)


I will most likely be going this way.

ID Ultra horns, X65 midbasses, and one IDQ12 
Powered by Two Zapco Studio 150s and a Studio 300x or Studio 500.


----------



## manstretch

lostthumb said:


> I will most likely be going this way.
> 
> ID Ultra horns, X65 midbasses, and one IDQ12
> Powered by Two Zapco Studio 150s and a Studio 300x or Studio 500.


Excellent, looking forward to your review.


----------



## Horsemanwill

lostthumb said:


> I will most likely be going this way.
> 
> ID Ultra horns, X65 midbasses, and one IDQ12
> Powered by Two Zapco Studio 150s and a Studio 300x or Studio 500.


make sure you post that build over at the ID forum


----------



## 14642

Here are a few rules that will hopefully set some folks at ease.

1. If you have a big center channel, time alignment doesn't matter. 
2. If you have a small center channel, time aligning the midbass in the doors will be helpful for one-seat optimization. When "Front" is chosen, the midbass may be slightly biased toward the near side. This depends on the crossover point, but won't be a big deal.
3. If you have no center channel, the sound will be great in one seat at a time--like all TA-based systems.
4. Ambient noise isn't an issue during INPUT calibration. It isn't a big issue during acoustic calibration. You don't need to kill all the mice in the building. but it's probably not a good idea to calibrate next to a railroad track unless you can wait until the train has passed.
5. READ THE OWNER'S MANUAL. If you'll use a factory head unit, you MUST run input setup. If you'll use an aftermarket radio, you can skip that part. 
6. If the sweeps are too loud, you'll clip the mic inputs and the unit won't be able to determine arrival time coorectly and it will screw up the TA settings. USe a volume level (on MS-8) of -20 for the sweeps if you're using MS-8's amplifiers. If you're using outboard amps, it should be lower than that. If, after calibration, it sounsd strange and there's no center image, the sweeps are too loud. Recalibrate (acoustic only) at a lower level. The sweeps don't have to be loud. About the same volume as someone speaking to you while seated in the passenger's seat.


----------



## AAAAAAA

For the center channel, if using a big speaker, would it even be required to run a tweeter since path lenghts do not matter as much\at all in the higher frequencies?


----------



## CraigE

What is the advice for HUs that exceed the MS-8 max. line input voltage of 2.8v ?

In my case the Kenwood DNX 9140 line output voltage is 5v.
With the volume control at 33/35 it is just under 5v, when checked with an O-scope.


----------



## AdamS

CraigE said:


> What is the advice for HUs that exceed the MS-8 max. line input voltage of 2.8v ?
> 
> In my case the Kenwood DNX 9140 line output voltage is 5v.
> With the volume control at 33/35 it is just under 5v, when checked with an O-scope.


Use 'Skip Input Setup' during calibration.

Keep the Kenwood under 2.8 V (~ 5 dB from the top).

Keep the MS8 Volume at -10 dB or less. This gives some headroom for the bass part of the target curve.

Control volume with either Kenwood or MS8.


----------



## michaelsil1

AdamS said:


> Use 'Skip Input Setup' during calibration.
> 
> Keep the Kenwood under 2.8 V (~ 5 dB from the top).
> 
> Keep the MS8 Volume at -10 dB or less. This gives some headroom for the bass part of the target curve.
> 
> Control volume with either Kenwood or MS8.


Adam,

Do you have a HU Volume recommendation for the Clarion DRZ9255?


----------



## AdamS

michaelsil1 said:


> Adam,
> 
> Do you have a HU Volume recommendation for the Clarion DRZ9255?


A quick look at the spec:

http://www.clarion.com/us/en/MungoBlobs/594/170/DRZ9255,0.pdf

says 8V Max.

This means you would need to be ~9 dB down from max.

With stepsize of .5 dB, that would be ~18 steps


----------



## thehatedguy

Andy, what about 2 seat with no center?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Here are a few rules that will hopefully set some folks at ease.
> 
> 1. If you have a big center channel, time alignment doesn't matter.
> 2. If you have a small center channel, time aligning the midbass in the doors will be helpful for one-seat optimization. When "Front" is chosen, the midbass may be slightly biased toward the near side. This depends on the crossover point, but won't be a big deal.
> 3. If you have no center channel, the sound will be great in one seat at a time--like all TA-based systems.
> 4. *Ambient noise isn't an issue during INPUT calibration. It isn't a big issue during acoustic calibration. You don't need to kill all the mice in the building. but it's probably not a good idea to calibrate next to a railroad track unless you can wait until the train has passed.*
> 5. READ THE OWNER'S MANUAL. If you'll use a factory head unit, you MUST run input setup. If you'll use an aftermarket radio, you can skip that part.
> 6. If the sweeps are too loud, you'll clip the mic inputs and the unit won't be able to determine arrival time coorectly and it will screw up the TA settings. USe a volume level (on MS-8) of -20 for the sweeps if you're using MS-8's amplifiers. If you're using outboard amps, it should be lower than that. If, after calibration, it sounsd strange and there's no center image, the sweeps are too loud. Recalibrate (acoustic only) at a lower level. The sweeps don't have to be loud. About the same volume as someone speaking to you while seated in the passenger's seat.


Does it matter if the windoz are up or down? For someone that wants to tune for windows up listening.


----------



## michaelsil1

t3sn4f2 said:


> Does it matter if the windoz are up or down? For someone that wants to tune for windows up listening.


I was hoping for a preset with the Windows Up, Windows Down.


----------



## 14642

michaelsil1 said:


> I was hoping for a preset with the Windows Up, Windows Down.


Yes, this is possible. Run acoustic calibration with the windows up and then tune by ear with the graphic EQ for windows down.


----------



## michaelsil1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, this is possible. Run acoustic calibration with the windows up and then tune by ear with the graphic EQ for windows down.


Can I let it Autotune with another Present?


----------



## 14642

The head unit voltage thing is outta control.

Here's the deal--we always want to be able to clip the input of our equipment. If you can't, then good recordings that don't include a bunch of dynamic range compression won't sound loud. If you have an aftermarket radio, skip the input setup and calibrate the system. Put in your favorite CD. Turn MS-8's volume control down to about -20. Turn the head unit volume control up until you hear distortion that you find annoying. Turn it down until you're no longer annoyed. That's the max volume setting. 

If that's not good enough, then put the setup CD in the aftermarket unit and run input setup. Then the unit will tell you where the level is right. you can write that volume control position on your hand as though you were Sarah Palin so you'll remember it. You can then either finish the input setup, which will run the un-EQ/un-Time alignment routine or you can select "quit" and go back and choose "Skip input setup".


----------



## 14642

Center channels need tweeters--or they need to be able to reproduce 10kHz over a fairly wide dispersion.


----------



## 14642

michaelsil1 said:


> Can I let it Autotune with another Present?


Of course. Everyone has to have their clothes on, though.


----------



## 14642

thehatedguy said:


> Andy, what about 2 seat with no center?


 
2-seat with no center works like any other system with time alignment. Great in one seat, not so great in the other, as far as imaging goes. The "Front" optimization will have frequency response balanced for both listeners but won't image.


----------



## michaelsil1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Of course. Everyone has to have their clothes on, though.


Cool! 

I can let it autotune windows up and then windows down. :coolgleamA:


----------



## vactor

i'm thinking a 3 way front with a 504GTi coax (with their passive crossovers) for Left, Center and Right (left and right will be in the kicks and center in the factory center channel opening. it's a 2009 Infiniti G37 sedan by the way), a pair of Tang Band wide range 4" ws1337's in the rear and a pair of 12" subs separately amplified. sound like a reasonable idea to go with my MS-8 that just arrived today?


----------



## james2266

I have a question I have not seen answered anywhere yet (I think). I apologize if it has been answered somewhere in this HUGE thread. It is regarding crossover frequencies available. What are the steps allowed to choose from. ie. Can we pick from 20,30,40, 50 Hz or is it not that exact. ie. something like 20, 50, 80, 100, etc. I currently have a Bit One.1 in my ride but I really like the idea of this long awaited processor. Does it cause any noise at all (hiss)? The Bit One is great if you have an rta to set it which I don't. I have been playing with alot of things to get my sound right but it was set with an rta but with my old HU. Each time I move anything you pretty much need an rta. I have been thinking about getting one but... If I go for this thing and sell my Bit One.1 I won't need one and will also have 5.1 surround again down the road. Sorry this is getting long. I guess I had more questions than I thought. Ultimately it will probably come down to how does it perform for people. I guess it is a good thing I don't have the cash to make another rather large purchase right now Thanks to anyone that has my answers.


----------



## michaelsil1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The head unit voltage thing is outta control.
> 
> Here's the deal--we always want to be able to clip the input of our equipment. If you can't, then good recordings that don't include a bunch of dynamic range compression won't sound loud. If you have an aftermarket radio, skip the input setup and calibrate the system. Put in your favorite CD. Turn MS-8's volume control down to about -20. Turn the head unit volume control up until you hear distortion that you find annoying. Turn it down until you're no longer annoyed. That's the max volume setting.
> 
> If that's not good enough, then put the setup CD in the aftermarket unit and run input setup. Then the unit will tell you where the level is right. you can write that volume control position on your hand as though you were Sarah Palin so you'll remember it. You can then either finish the input setup, which will run the un-EQ/un-Time alignment routine or you can select "quit" and go back and choose "Skip input setup".


Good Idea!


----------



## 60ndown

andy w,

could you redesign this thing with just 1 button please.


----------



## michaelsil1

60ndown said:


> andy w,
> 
> could you redesign this thing with just 1 button please.


Are you going to buy one?


----------



## 60ndown

michaelsil1 said:


> Are you going to buy one?


like i said in our pms the other day, if it gets consistently great real world reviews, from many people over several months, (unlike other glitchy products ive seen  )

yes.


----------



## western47

Rushed home early from work today as I knew that UPS had delivered the MS-8. Was completely shocked to see that it was not double boxed!!

This is a very expensive toy to leave out in the open with badges to the world. I don't care that much about double boxing for protection but don't advertise what is in the box. 

The main unit showed a couple very, very minor imperfections on the blasted aluminum. You have to be right on top of it to notice so I wouldn't worry about it.

Now the few weeks of work that it will take to finish my project. Expect a killer build log.


----------



## Izay123

Oh Man! I can't believe it's finally out!

Good job Team JBL!


I have a question and a suggestion: Is the MS-8 fully functional when used in-home (with an inverter)? Or are the Logic7 settings that much different from the home receiver versions? I realize it was not designed for in-home use but its small size and massive capabilities fit my situation.

I have a suggestion for a future upgrade: Make them linkable so that when 2 are strapped together, someone could have 16 channels of perfectly processed, crossed and aligned bliss in his or her car...


----------



## thehatedguy

Even with kick mounted mids that have a 6" PLD?



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> 2-seat with no center works like any other system with time alignment. Great in one seat, not so great in the other, as far as imaging goes. The "Front" optimization will have frequency response balanced for both listeners but won't image.


----------



## tornaido_3927

Izay123 said:


> I have a suggestion for a future upgrade: Make them linkable so that when 2 are strapped together, someone could have 16 channels of perfectly processed, crossed and aligned bliss in his or her car...


I think if someone crammed this many essquez in their car it may just explode..


----------



## AdamS

Izay123 said:


> Oh Man! I can't believe it's finally out!
> 
> Good job Team JBL!
> 
> 
> I have a question and a suggestion: Is the MS-8 fully functional when used in-home (with an inverter)? Or are the Logic7 settings that much different from the home receiver versions? I realize it was not designed for in-home use but its small size and massive capabilities fit my situation.
> 
> I have a suggestion for a future upgrade: Make them linkable so that when 2 are strapped together, someone could have 16 channels of perfectly processed, crossed and aligned bliss in his or her car...


It works fine with the standard +12V power supply that are shipped with some of our Ipod docking products. Just make sure that MS8's ground is connected to the DVD/BD player chassis. Otherwise, you'll get input clipping.

The target function will have too much bass and not enough highs for a room, but you can adjust this with the Tone Control or 31 band.

Lastly, MS8 only has 2 input channels in this environment (like aftermarket HU), so you'll need to use the analog downmixed output on your player.

Logic7 Car is closer to Logic7 Music than Logic7 Movie.

Good luck!


----------



## 14642

thehatedguy said:


> Even with kick mounted mids that have a 6" PLD?


Yes, it'll be better in one seat than the other in "Driver" or "Passenger", but in "Front" there won't be any left/right delay.


----------



## Thaid and Bound

AdamS said:


> Logic7 Car is closer to Logic7 Music than Logic7 Movie.


How close? 

I have to admit that I have tried to like Logic 7 Music on my HK AVR, but I just can't.. What kind of difference can we expect from Logic 7 Music's hollow, fake and sometimes just bizarre mangling of the signal?


----------



## 14642

Thaid and Bound said:


> How close?
> 
> I have to admit that I have tried to like Logic 7 Music on my HK AVR, but I just can't.. What kind of difference can we expect from Logic 7 Music's hollow, fake and sometimes just bizarre mangling of the signal?


It always sounds great in my car. The benefit in the car is mostly in R/L/C steering and in decorrelating the signal to the rear.


----------



## Se7en

Andy,

I have a very stupid question but I figured that it is worth asking so that I can better understand the limitations/implications.

Also, this is for those of us endowed with largish front mid/sub bass, tiny center channels and factory rear tray sub locations. If given the the ability to actively manage a 2 or 3 way center chanenel (XO & TA), why would it not be possible to use the factory sub location for the MB center channel frequencies and possibly use the large front MB as the system's subs.

I know that at above certain frequencies, the rear mounted "center mid bass" would begin to localize, but with all of this talk of rear mounted mid-bass surround, I figured I would ask.

Thanks and sorry for the lame question.


----------



## james2266

Any response to my questions? :coolgleamA:



james2266 said:


> I have a question I have not seen answered anywhere yet (I think). I apologize if it has been answered somewhere in this HUGE thread. It is regarding crossover frequencies available. What are the steps allowed to choose from. ie. Can we pick from 20,30,40, 50 Hz or is it not that exact. ie. something like 20, 50, 80, 100, etc. I currently have a Bit One.1 in my ride but I really like the idea of this long awaited processor. Does it cause any noise at all (hiss)? The Bit One is great if you have an rta to set it which I don't. I have been playing with alot of things to get my sound right but it was set with an rta but with my old HU. Each time I move anything you pretty much need an rta. I have been thinking about getting one but... If I go for this thing and sell my Bit One.1 I won't need one and will also have 5.1 surround again down the road. Sorry this is getting long. I guess I had more questions than I thought. Ultimately it will probably come down to how does it perform for people. I guess it is a good thing I don't have the cash to make another rather large purchase right now Thanks to anyone that has my answers.


----------



## AdamS

james2266 said:


> I have a question I have not seen answered anywhere yet (I think). I apologize if it has been answered somewhere in this HUGE thread. It is regarding crossover frequencies available. What are the steps allowed to choose from. ie. Can we pick from 20,30,40, 50 Hz or is it not that exact. ie. something like 20, 50, 80, 100, etc. I currently have a Bit One.1 in my ride but I really like the idea of this long awaited processor. Does it cause any noise at all (hiss)? The Bit One is great if you have an rta to set it which I don't. I have been playing with alot of things to get my sound right but it was set with an rta but with my old HU. Each time I move anything you pretty much need an rta. I have been thinking about getting one but... If I go for this thing and sell my Bit One.1 I won't need one and will also have 5.1 surround again down the road. Sorry this is getting long. I guess I had more questions than I thought. Ultimately it will probably come down to how does it perform for people. I guess it is a good thing I don't have the cash to make another rather large purchase right now Thanks to anyone that has my answers.


1 Hz resolution. The ranges were posted a few days ago.


----------



## james2266

1 Hz resolution? That means this thing can do sub cutoffs of say 50, 51, 52, 53, etc? Wow, that's insane if I am reading that correctly. That's better than my Bit One actually. Let me know if I have this interpreted incorrectly.


----------



## ErinH

x2. I must've missed that. 

That's pretty dang awesome.


----------



## AdamS

james2266 said:


> 1 Hz resolution? That means this thing can do sub cutoffs of say 50, 51, 52, 53, etc? Wow, that's insane if I am reading that correctly. That's better than my Bit One actually. Let me know if I have this interpreted incorrectly.


Yes, 1 Hz. We calculate the filters on the fly, so 1 Hz is no big deal.

The range for sub/front crossover is 50-200 Hz, in 1 Hz increments.


----------



## ErinH

You guys may have covered this already so if you have, just let me know and I’ll look (again).

Have you tested the ms-8 in a ‘bad’ install setup on purpose to see how it is able to work around issues such as standing waves, resonant panels, improper enclosures, etc? I’m curious in the ability for it to correct the system response with an anomaly such as this.


----------



## james2266

That sounds incredible. Now, one more question. Can your sub cutoff frequency vary with your mid-bass hi pass frequency or do they have to be the same? ie. can you have an overlap here for instance I have my sub at 80 Hz and my midbass at 70 Hz currently. While we're at it can you have different slopes for these two numbers too? Sorry for all the questions but I don't think I am the only one interested in this.


----------



## james2266

bikinpunk said:


> You guys may have covered this already so if you have, just let me know and I’ll look (again).
> 
> Have you tested the ms-8 in a ‘bad’ install setup on purpose to see how it is able to work around issues such as standing waves, resonant panels, improper enclosures, etc? I’m curious in the ability for it to correct the system response with an anomaly such as this.



Good question. I would be interested in this response too.


----------



## AdamS

james2266 said:


> That sounds incredible. Now, one more question. Can your sub cutoff frequency vary with your mid-bass hi pass frequency or do they have to be the same? ie. can you have an overlap here for instance I have my sub at 80 Hz and my midbass at 70 Hz currently. While we're at it can you have different slopes for these two numbers too? Sorry for all the questions but I don't think I am the only one interested in this.


No overlap. You're trying to use the crossovers to do EQ. Use the 31 band for that.

At every crossover frequency you can choose a different slope.


----------



## Grim0013

AdamS said:


> No overlap. You're trying to use the crossovers to do EQ. Use the 31 band for that.
> 
> At every crossover frequency you can choose a different slope.


Or, quite possibly, the MS-8 will already compensate (during the auto-tune portion of setup) for whatever it is you're attempting to mask by overlapping x-over points. Assuming it is as good as it claims to be. 

Oh, and Adam, out of curiosity, since my MS-8, and the manual, are currently packed waiting for my move this weekend, do you select a single slope which gets applied in both "directions" at each selected x-over point, or do you specify low-pass and high-pass independently?


----------



## 14642

The over and underlap (if that's a word) are usually used to make the bass sound good when the level of the sub amp is increased. That's not necessary with MS-8.


----------



## AdamS

Grim0013 said:


> Or, quite possibly, the MS-8 will already compensate (during the auto-tune portion of setup) for whatever it is you're attempting to mask by overlapping x-over points. Assuming it is as good as it claims to be.
> 
> Oh, and Adam, out of curiosity, since my MS-8, and the manual, are currently packed waiting for my move this weekend, do you select a single slope which gets applied in both "directions" at each selected x-over point, or do you specify low-pass and high-pass independently?


Low and high are chosen together, as are Left and Right, Left Surround and Right Surround, Left Back and Right Back.

Saves lots of setup time and prevents errors.


----------



## tdc_worm

wowowowow. welcome to the market with this...


----------



## michaelsil1

Andy, 

I have another question:

For one preset do you have to move to all four seat locations in the car?

I read the entire manual, just wondering if I read it correctly.


----------



## Gearhead Greg

Mr. Michael, how goes it!? I read through it, and thought there was a "done"option after each sample? I too may have mis-read it??

ANOTHER question, Andy (thanks so much for all of the answers!). OK, so my sole interest in "rear fill" is to strengthen the front stage. OK, if I could gain a little "ambience", that would be fine too, so long as it doesn't pull the stage towards the rear. Would it then be feasible to run just the rear outputs to a simple rear fill setup (full-range), and go ahead and utilize Logic-7 Processing for music? I just fear that it will sound somewhat unnatural, with noticeable information coming from the rear, if I do so? 
For the record, my system has 6" mb in the doors and a 4" & tweet in each kick panel. The sub(s) will be located in the rear, of course (re-design in progress!). So, I wouldn't be using a center, nor "side" speakers (unless the midbasses could go that route, but from what I read in the manual, that wouldn't work).

Thanks,

Greg


----------



## 14642

When you use MS-8, it may be helpful to adjust your perception of how best to use a crossover. In conventional systems, we often use the crossover to get the smoothest response possible before applying EQ. If you have an RTA, this is probably the first part of the tuning process. The most important part of choosing the crossover is to make sure that you set high pass filters so that the drivers are safe from too much bass. Then, it's a matter of choosing the precise frequencies and slopes to get the best blend between the speakers according to the microphone while setting the levels of the adjacent bands. 

With MS-8, you don't have to do all of that. Just set the crossovers for steep slopes to minimize driver interaction and choose frequncies that keep the drivers safe.

For example, a couple of days ago we put one in a 2000 BMW 3-series with the old amp that has analog filters built into the amp. All we did was add a simple capacitor to the tweeters in the front and rear and connected the tweeters and small mids to the MS-8. We used separate channels for the front midbass drivers and a pair of chanels for the subs. Worked great. No need for some complicated passives between the mid and the tweeter.

MS-8 won't fix a stupid system, though. If you use an 8" midbass in the door and a 1" tweeter in the top of the door, it won't fix the problem you'll have at the crossover point due to directivity issues, but neither will a huge collection of tunable filters or overlapping crossovers, no matter how cool the PC interface may be. Bottom line is if you build a competent system, MS-8 will make it sound better than 99 percent of the other processors available whether they have an autotune or whether you or a real acoustician adjust the EQ.


----------



## AdamS

Gearhead Greg said:


> Mr. Michael, how goes it!? I read through it, and thought there was a "done"option after each sample? I too may have mis-read it??
> 
> ANOTHER question, Andy (thanks so much for all of the answers!). OK, so my sole interest in "rear fill" is to strengthen the front stage. OK, if I could gain a little "ambience", that would be fine too, so long as it doesn't pull the stage towards the rear. Would it then be feasible to run just the rear outputs to a simple rear fill setup (full-range), and go ahead and utilize Logic-7 Processing for music? I just fear that it will sound somewhat unnatural, with noticeable information coming from the rear, if I do so?
> For the record, my system has 6" mb in the doors and a 4" & tweet in each kick panel. The sub(s) will be located in the rear, of course (re-design in progress!). So, I wouldn't be using a center, nor "side" speakers (unless the midbasses could go that route, but from what I read in the manual, that wouldn't work).
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Greg


If you choose 'Done' after the 'Driver' Measurement, then in the Audio Controls menu, all you get to choose is Driver.

If you choose 'Done' after the 'Passenger' Measurement, then in the Audio Controls menu, all you get to choose is Driver, Passenger, Front

You're not allowed to quit after the behind driver measurement.

If you choose 'Done' after the 4th Measurement, then in the Audio Controls menu, you get access to Driver, Passenger, Front, Rear, All


----------



## michaelsil1

AdamS said:


> If you choose 'Done' after the 'Driver' Measurement, then in the Audio Controls menu, all you get to choose is Driver.
> 
> If you choose 'Done' after the 'Passenger' Measurement, then in the Audio Controls menu, all you get to choose is Driver, Passenger, Front
> 
> You're not allowed to quit after the behind driver measurement.
> 
> If you choose 'Done' after the 4th Measurement, then in the Audio Controls menu, you get access to Driver, Passenger, Front, Rear, All


This is all on one preset?


----------



## 14642

Gearhead Greg said:


> Mr. Michael, how goes it!? I read through it, and thought there was a "done"option after each sample? I too may have mis-read it??
> 
> ANOTHER question, Andy (thanks so much for all of the answers!). OK, so my sole interest in "rear fill" is to strengthen the front stage. OK, if I could gain a little "ambience", that would be fine too, so long as it doesn't pull the stage towards the rear. Would it then be feasible to run just the rear outputs to a simple rear fill setup (full-range), and go ahead and utilize Logic-7 Processing for music? I just fear that it will sound somewhat unnatural, with noticeable information coming from the rear, if I do so?
> For the record, my system has 6" mb in the doors and a 4" & tweet in each kick panel. The sub(s) will be located in the rear, of course (re-design in progress!). So, I wouldn't be using a center, nor "side" speakers (unless the midbasses could go that route, but from what I read in the manual, that wouldn't work).
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Greg


Yup. This will work fine. You'll identify your rear speakers as sides in the setup, but don't let that bother you.


----------



## Gearhead Greg

So, if someone was to want _only_ "Driver", then they _could_ use the "done" option after the first set of measurements were taken, correct?


----------



## Gearhead Greg

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yup. This will work fine. You'll identify your rear speakers as sides in the setup, but don't let that bother you.


Cool beans, that sounds very nice! Thanks, Andy


----------



## michaelsil1

Gearhead Greg said:


> Mr. Michael, how goes it!? I read through it, and thought there was a "done"option after each sample? I too may have mis-read it??


Greg,

I'm okay. 

Just getting ready for tomorrows installation. epper:


----------



## Gearhead Greg

Good times, sir! I'll be down there tomorrow NIGHT (leaving Patterson as soon as the wifey gets home, probalby arond 6:30pm). Using my Knott's tickets from the car show last month, before they expire! 

Are "you" doing it, or do you have a shop work on it?? I wish I could hear it while I'm down there, I'm dying to hear this thing in action!


----------



## AdamS

michaelsil1 said:


> This is all on one preset?


This is the starting point of a Favorite (preset).

The preset is essentially a snapshot of the Audio Control menu, which includes a Seat choice (driver, passenger, front, rear ,all)


----------



## michaelsil1

Gearhead Greg said:


> Good times, sir! I'll be down there tomorrow NIGHT (leaving Patterson as soon as the wifey gets home, probalby arond 6:30pm). Using my Knott's tickets from the car show last month, before they expire!
> 
> Are "you" doing it, or do you have a shop work on it?? I wish I could hear it while I'm down there, I'm dying to hear this thing in action!


I have a shop work on my car. How long are you going to be down here?


----------



## michaelsil1

AdamS said:


> This is the starting point of a Favorite (preset).
> 
> The preset is essentially a snapshot of the Audio Control menu, which includes a Seat choice (driver, passenger, front, rear ,all)


And we have four presets? If so wow!


----------



## AdamS

Gearhead Greg said:


> So, if someone was to want _only_ "Driver", then they _could_ use the "done" option after the first set of measurements were taken, correct?


Yes, and I highly recommend it. This will ensure that your baseline setup is OK.


----------



## rcurley55

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> For example, a couple of days ago we put one in a 2000 BMW 3-series with the old amp that has analog filters built into the amp. All we did was add a simple capacitor to the tweeters in the front and rear and connected the tweeters and small mids to the MS-8. We used separate channels for the front midbass drivers and a pair of chanels for the subs. Worked great. No need for some complicated passives between the mid and the tweeter.


Andy, can you tell me more about this system? Did you use the factory midbasses in front? Did you use the internal power from the MS-8 on the all speakers in the system? How did it sound?

I'm thinking about taking this approach in my 2001 M3


----------



## Thaid and Bound

Perhaps a stupid question, but it needs to be asked: 

What happens when the MS-8 is installed in a right-hand-drive car? Is passenger/driver labelled back to front, or is there some smarts to deal with this?


----------



## Mic10is

Thaid and Bound said:


> Perhaps a stupid question, but it needs to be asked:
> 
> What happens when the MS-8 is installed in a right-hand-drive car? Is passenger/driver labelled back to front, or is there some smarts to deal with this?


shouldnt make a difference bc its tuning based on microphone location. So if you are sitting on the right side, thats all the algorithm should read.
Same as someone optimizing for passenger seat in a LHD vehicle.


----------



## Grim0013

Mic10is said:


> shouldnt make a difference bc its tuning based on microphone location. So if you are sitting on the right side, thats all the algorithm should read.
> Same as someone optimizing for passenger seat in a LHD vehicle.


Exactly. The "Driver" position is defined by where you are sitting, mic on head, when it asks you to sit in the driver's seat. However, I don't know much about all the L/C/R steering going on with L7, so I don't feel qualified to make any statements in regard to that aspect of the unit, or if it even matters.


----------



## ErinH

This may have been covered as well, but since I’m trying to read up on this, can you guys who know (not necessarily Adam or Andy) tell me if the ms-8 works in real time to flatten out the incoming signal and allow only flat, full range signal to then be further processed by the ms-8? Say from a factory eq’d deck or, most importantly in my case, a deck with a loudness contour that is non-defeatable? 

I see mention of the ms-8’s ability to ‘normalize’ in the manual, but not sure if this is a one time thing (ie: factory crossovers) or if it works in real time to correct something like a headunit’s loudness contour that’s variable with volume, which is what I'm more concerned about. This would determine just how much thought would be involved when setting it up. 

Does that make sense or do I need to spell it out more? 

Thanks,
Erin


----------



## michaelsil1

bikinpunk said:


> This may have been covered as well, but since I’m trying to read up on this, can you guys who know (not necessarily Adam or Andy) tell me if the ms-8 works in real time to flatten out the incoming signal and allow only flat, full range signal to then be further processed by the ms-8? Say from a factory eq’d deck or, most importantly in my case, a deck with a loudness contour that is non-defeatable?
> 
> I see mention of the ms-8’s ability to ‘normalize’ in the manual, but not sure if this is a one time thing (ie: factory crossovers) or if it works in real time to correct something like a headunit’s loudness contour that’s variable with volume, which is what I'm more concerned about. This would determine just how much thought would be involved when setting it up.
> 
> Does that make sense or do I need to spell it out more?
> 
> Thanks,
> Erin


Is the loudness control an issue? If so I would think if you set the level on the HU and then only used the volume control on the MS-8 it would no longer be an issue.


----------



## trevordj

bikinpunk said:


> This may have been covered as well, but since I’m trying to read up on this, can you guys who know (not necessarily Adam or Andy) tell me if the ms-8 works in real time to flatten out the incoming signal and allow only flat, full range signal to then be further processed by the ms-8? Say from a factory eq’d deck or, most importantly in my case, a deck with a loudness contour that is non-defeatable?
> 
> I see mention of the ms-8’s ability to ‘normalize’ in the manual, but not sure if this is a one time thing (ie: factory crossovers) or if it works in real time to correct something like a headunit’s loudness contour that’s variable with volume, which is what I'm more concerned about. This would determine just how much thought would be involved when setting it up.
> 
> Does that make sense or do I need to spell it out more?
> 
> Thanks,
> Erin


IIRC the MS-8 does not work in real time to flatten the incoming signal. This was the reasoning given for the recommendation to use the MS-8's volume control rather than the volume control on the OEM unit.


----------



## ErinH

michaelsil1 said:


> Is the loudness control an issue? If so I would think if you set the level on the HU and then only used the volume control on the MS-8 it would no longer be an issue.


Not necessarily an issue. Just a factor in how I set the system up as the volume on the headunit will seemingly influence the output of the auto setup. Of course, I can make my own adjustments after the initial setup. 
Reason being, Andy/Adam mentioned volume setting (headunit output voltage) maneuvers for setting up the ms-8. It is possible (see: I don’t have this so can’t say until I’ve tried it) that the output voltage needed from the headunit would mean that the signal I’m sending the ms-8 is not flat (as it gets flatter with increase in volume). I could see this trickling down into a more complex way of setting up my particular system. IE: With the bitone, I’ve been able to take advantage of the loudness feature on my headunit by tuning and measuring at certain volumes to see if the output curve is the curve I desire at X volume. It may be a bit trickier with the ms-8, in regards to the effort in consciously choosing the volume/EQ curve I target. 

Of course, I may be completely over thinking this (as I've been known to do now and again, lol).
I just wanted to know how/if this works as I'm used to dealing with my headunit's loudness feature.


----------



## t3sn4f2

trevordj said:


> IIRC the MS-8 does not work in real time to flatten the incoming signal. This was the reasoning given for the recommendation to use the MS-8's volume control rather than the volume control on the OEM unit.


^this

It would be impossible since the only reference point comes when the signal from the setup CD is being played at the particular head unit volume. There would be no way for the MS-8 to know if the _dynamic_ music signal coming in is boosted /cut by a device at some frequency band, or if that is just part of the music itself.


----------



## ErinH

t3sn4f2 said:


> ^this


actually, I found that I had asked this already. *facepalm* If you see my edit above, you'll see why it got stirred up again, though.


----------



## ErinH

t3sn4f2 said:


> It would be impossible since the only reference point comes when the signal from the setup CD is being played at the particular head unit volume. There would be no way for the MS-8 to know if the _dynamic_ music signal coming in is boosted /cut by a device at some frequency band, or if that is just part of the music itself.


Very good point. I hadn't even considered that.


----------



## rain27

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> And here are some "spy shots" of some other stuff that's in the works.



Andy,
I have an MS-8 on its way, but was eagerly awaiting news on these cool looking amps as well. Anything new to share regarding these?


----------



## 14642

Not yet, but soon.


----------



## AAAAAAA

We knew about lots of ms8 stuff in 2007.... why not give us some info on the amps


----------



## Thaid and Bound

Grim0013 said:


> Exactly. The "Driver" position is defined by where you are sitting, mic on head, when it asks you to sit in the driver's seat. However, *I don't know much about all the L/C/R steering going on with L7*, so I don't feel qualified to make any statements in regard to that aspect of the unit, or if it even matters.


^ Right there, that's what I'm wondering about. 

Everywhere throughout the input/ouput setup Left, Right, Front, Back are the labels used, but @ tuning time it becomes Driver, Passenger, Front, Back - with no Question of LHD or RHD. I appreciate from a time/EQ/Xover POV it doesn't matter a hoot, but it _could make a difference_ when it comes to 'Logic 7 Car' processing things right..


----------



## AdamS

Thaid and Bound said:


> ^ Right there, that's what I'm wondering about.
> 
> Everywhere throughout the input/ouput setup Left, Right, Front, Back are the labels used, but @ tuning time it becomes Driver, Passenger, Front, Back - with no Question of LHD or RHD. I appreciate from a time/EQ/Xover POV it doesn't matter a hoot, but it _could make a difference_ when it comes to 'Logic 7 Car' processing things right..


Think about it this way:

Driver = Mic Position #1
Passenger = Mic Position #2
Front = optimization using Mic Positions #1 and #2 
Rear = optimization using Mic Positions #3 and #4 
All = optimization using Mic Positions #1, #2, #3, and #4 

These positions can be anywhere in the car, but we tried to keep the product straightforward by using terms like Driver, Passenger, etc.

You won't have any issues with Logic7 due to this terminology.


----------



## Thaid and Bound

AdamS said:


> Think about it this way:
> 
> Driver = Mic Position #1
> Passenger = Mic Position #2
> Front = optimization using Mic Positions #1 and #2
> Rear = optimization using Mic Positions #3 and #4
> All = optimization using Mic Positions #1, #2, #3, and #4
> 
> These positions can be anywhere in the car, but we tried to keep the product straightforward by using terms like Driver, Passenger, etc.
> 
> You won't have any issues with Logic7 due to this terminology.


Great! Like I said when this Q started, it may seem like a stupid question but it needs to be asked  Thanks for the clarification!


----------



## rain27

If anyone is looking to buy the MS-8 authorized, do yourself a favor and check in with BigRed first. You won't regret it!


----------



## michaelsil1

I got my MS-8 today, thanks Jim (BigRed) for hooking me up.


----------



## michaelsil1

Is there anyway to defeat the Amp?


----------



## rain27

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, you just don't use it. It can't deliver any current if there's no load. There's no downside.


This was Andy's previous response to this question.


----------



## CraigE

Congratulations Andy and Adam (and the rest of your team). :thumbsup:
Got mine going today.
The setup and calibration is so simple a caveman could do it.
It sounds great.
I did a quick check, with my iPhone RTA App by Studio Six Digital, of left and right. Each side was flat with a slight boost in the low end.
I am currently running a 3 way front and one sub, and look forward to adding sides and center very soon, to take advantage of the L7.
My wife asked " if the MS-8 tunes it for you, what will you do with all of the spare time you'll have?"


----------



## rawdawg

CraigE,

Does the MS-8 tune sound better than any of your previous tunings? How does the tune now compare with any of the Socal SQ cars, ie; Buzz's Merc, Todd's 'Stang, BigRed's Monster, etc...


----------



## james2266

CraigE said:


> Congratulations Andy and Adam (and the rest of your team). :thumbsup:
> Got mine going today.
> The setup and calibration is so simple a caveman could do it.
> It sounds great.
> I did a quick check, with my iPhone RTA App by Studio Six Digital, of left and right. Each side was flat with a slight boost in the low end.
> I am currently running a 3 way front and one sub, and look forward to adding sides and center very soon, to take advantage of the L7.
> My wife asked " if the MS-8 tunes it for you, what will you do with all of the spare time you'll have?"


RTA app for ipod touch/iphone??!?! Oh hell ya. Went right to the app store and downloaded it. Fired it up and nothing. Grr. Upon further research I think my ipod touch 1g doesn't have a built in mic. I sure hope I can get an external to work. How good does this app work anyway? I obviously don't think it will be as accurate as a real rta but maybe it is too. I figured for the $12 investment it was well worth the gamble. These ipod touch/iphones are amazing little devices these days.


----------



## BigRed

Got mine installed just a little while ago.

Front 3 way with center and rears.

UN FUK N BE LEAVE A BULL!!

It did what took 2 years to do in tuning less than 5 minutes. the center is locked in and the rears add an ambiance that you will never achieve with 2 channel in my opinion.

I used an electronic crossover between mid/tweet to allow full active 3 way up front. I even used the 80hz crossover on my subs just to see if I could prove Andy wrong on this subject. I lost. The sub to midbass integration is perfect, with no hint of subs behind me. This thing is scary good. Props to JBL. It was a cinch to set up.

And you don't need no stinkin optical!! Its as clean as can be in analog! 

Lovin it big time!!


----------



## rain27

BigRed said:


> Got mine installed just a little while ago.
> 
> Front 3 way with center and rears.
> 
> UN FUK N BE LEAVE A BULL!!
> 
> It did what took 2 years to do in tuning less than 5 minutes. the center is locked in and the rears add an ambiance that you will never achieve with 2 channel in my opinion.
> 
> I used an electronic crossover between mid/tweet to allow full active 3 way up front. I even used the 80hz crossover on my subs just to see if I could prove Andy wrong on this subject. I lost. The sub to midbass integration is perfect, with no hint of subs behind me. This thing is scary good. Props to JBL. It was a cinch to set up.
> 
> And you don't need no stinkin optical!! Its as clean as can be in analog!
> 
> Lovin it big time!!


Wow. Best endorsement I've heard yet. Can't wait to get mine! And thanks for the hook up, Jim.


----------



## BigRed

Enjoy Rain, you will be a happy man after getting it installed


----------



## Grim0013

AAAAAAA said:


> We knew about lots of ms8 stuff in 2007.... why not give us some info on the amps


In hindsight, I bet he'd say that was a mistake.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Grim0013 said:


> In hindsight, I bet he'd say that was a mistake.


He has.


----------



## 14642

BigRed said:


> Got mine installed just a little while ago.
> 
> Front 3 way with center and rears.
> 
> UN FUK N BE LEAVE A BULL!!
> 
> It did what took 2 years to do in tuning less than 5 minutes. the center is locked in and the rears add an ambiance that you will never achieve with 2 channel in my opinion.
> 
> I used an electronic crossover between mid/tweet to allow full active 3 way up front. I even used the 80hz crossover on my subs just to see if I could prove Andy wrong on this subject. I lost. The sub to midbass integration is perfect, with no hint of subs behind me. This thing is scary good. Props to JBL. It was a cinch to set up.
> 
> And you don't need no stinkin optical!! Its as clean as can be in analog!
> 
> Lovin it big time!!



Thanks.


----------



## 14642

CraigE said:


> Congratulations Andy and Adam (and the rest of your team). :thumbsup:
> Got mine going today.
> The setup and calibration is so simple a caveman could do it.
> It sounds great.
> I did a quick check, with my iPhone RTA App by Studio Six Digital, of left and right. Each side was flat with a slight boost in the low end.
> I am currently running a 3 way front and one sub, and look forward to adding sides and center very soon, to take advantage of the L7.
> My wife asked " if the MS-8 tunes it for you, what will you do with all of the spare time you'll have?"


 Thanks x 2.


----------



## gutz

Andy ,

When will it be possible to get it Worldwide ( Let's say Israel for example *uhm* *uhm* ) ?


----------



## 60ndown

BigRed said:


> the rears add an ambiance that you will never achieve with 2 channel in my opinion.


:surprised:....


----------



## ErinH

BigRed said:


> Got mine installed just a little while ago.
> 
> Front 3 way with center and rears.
> 
> UN FUK N BE LEAVE A BULL!!
> 
> It did what took 2 years to do in tuning less than 5 minutes. the center is locked in and the rears add an ambiance that you will never achieve with 2 channel in my opinion.
> 
> I used an electronic crossover between mid/tweet to allow full active 3 way up front. I even used the 80hz crossover on my subs just to see if I could prove Andy wrong on this subject. I lost. The sub to midbass integration is perfect, with no hint of subs behind me. This thing is scary good. Props to JBL. It was a cinch to set up.
> 
> And you don't need no stinkin optical!! Its as clean as can be in analog!
> 
> Lovin it big time!!




With it being an 8 channel processor, can you tell me how you set up 3-way fronts+sub and had rears? Were the rears on a single channel out the output? 
What exactly are you using to power the rears (the internal amp or an external one)? 

Just curious.

Glad to hear you're happy with the center and focus. These are the two things I was most concerned about.


----------



## BigRed

Channel 1/2 = midbass
Channel 3/4 = mid / tweet (output fed thru electonic crossover splitting signals)
Channel 5/6 = rears
Channel 7 = center
Channel 8 = sub

hope that helps


----------



## trevordj

BigRed said:


> Channel 1/2 = midbass
> Channel 3/4 = mid / tweet (output fed thru electonic crossover splitting signals)
> Channel 5/6 = rears
> Channel 7 = center
> Channel 8 = sub
> 
> hope that helps


Red, are you running a midbass as part of the center channel or just the L4 and tweeter? What your high pass on the center? IIRC you are running 8 inch woofers in the floors for our fronts, just curious what your impressions were on running the phantom center image for the midbass frequencies.


----------



## JoeDirte

BigRed, I sent you a PM about getting ahold of a unit.

Thanks!


----------



## ErinH

BigRed said:


> Channel 1/2 = midbass
> Channel 3/4 = mid / tweet (output fed thru electonic crossover splitting signals)
> Channel 5/6 = rears
> Channel 7 = center
> Channel 8 = sub
> 
> hope that helps


which external crossover are you using for the mid/tweet? the 701?

glad to hear you like it. 

As I said earlier, does this mean that everyone will have the same points in competition?


----------



## masswork

gutz said:


> Andy ,
> 
> When will it be possible to get it Worldwide ( Let's say Israel for example *uhm* *uhm* ) ?


Indonesia please...


----------



## MattyKHZ

Right I have now decided to get the MS-8 over the Bit One.

Going to be using this between my OEM HU in the Mini and my 2 x 4 channel Denon DCA760BL amps.

Planning on using my existing MB Quart QM218.61 speakers in door locations with added QSC210 sourced from the classifieds to make it a 3 way active set up. A pillar location for the tweeters. No centre channel.

As I have no room for a sub my biggest issue is what to do with my remaining 2 channels and what the MS-8 can do for me.

Rear OEM location is a 6x9. I have Kef KAR160B 6.5" that would fit in this area and perhaps give sub rear fill. Or would I be better getting 6.5" or 6x9 coaxials there for rear fill?

And probably a silly question but do I link the MS8 to 1st amp then daisy chain off that or do I need and RCA for each channel off the MS8 to amps? Previously just used the balanced connectors from my Denon HU to the amps so never dealt with a processor before.

Can't wait to get my install finally sorted after having a stock sound system since october and my old gear from my old car lying around.


----------



## 14642

Units will arrive in Indonesia next month and I'll be there in July sometime.


----------



## kyheng

^Congrats to you Andy, on the MS-8 debut and getting all the happy users. Indeed the long wait is worth something for end users.
Anyway, how about Malaysia? Will it be June also?


----------



## 14642

kyheng said:


> ^Congrats to you Andy, on the MS-8 debut and getting all the happy users. Indeed the long wait is worth something for end users.
> Anyway, how about Malaysia? Will it be June also?


 
Yup. Same deal. I'll be there too.


----------



## kyheng

That's great. I will have the chance to have an eye on it.

Also will be great if I have the chance to meet you in person.....


----------



## BigRed

bikinpunk said:


> which external crossover are you using for the mid/tweet? the 701?
> 
> glad to hear you like it.
> 
> As I said earlier, does this mean that everyone will have the same points in competition?


i use an alpine 3672


----------



## michaelsil1

Well I've run into a problem the Female RCA Input #1 is broken and I can't input the Male RCA into it.
I need to get a replacement unit.


----------



## Shocks

It's really good to hear some positive feedback on the MS-8, I'm on the fence between an MS-8 and P99RS. I'm currently using Zapco amps and from my understanding but someone please correct me if I'm wrong, I would have to replace the Symbilink for RCA's runs. I don't know how much of a difference that would make but I have a absolutely zero audible noisefloor and would like to keep it that way. I have no doubt that the MS-8 is truly a remarkable piece but I'm not sure if it would be worthwhile to ditch the Symbilink for RCA's. Can someone chime in? Thanks


----------



## AdamS

michaelsil1 said:


> Well I've run into a problem the Female RCA Input #1 is broken and I can't input the Male RCA into it.
> I need to get a replacement unit.


Sorry to hear that. Andy can connect you with the right folks.

If you want to check your result anyways, you can move Input 1/2 to Aux, switch Input to Aux, and then listen.

Input 1/2 (skip input setup) should be equivalent to Aux in signal path (with the exception that Aux gain can also be used)


----------



## michaelsil1

AdamS said:


> Sorry to hear that. Andy can connect you with the right folks.
> 
> If you want to check your result anyways, you can move Input 1/2 to Aux, switch Input to Aux, and then listen.
> 
> Input 1/2 (skip input setup) should be equivalent to Aux in signal path (with the exception that Aux gain can also be used)


Adam,

Thank you.

I sent Andy a PM hopefully he can help, I just want the unit up and running yesterday.


----------



## newtitan

BigRed said:


> Channel 1/2 = midbass
> Channel 3/4 = mid / tweet (output fed thru electonic crossover splitting signals)
> Channel 5/6 = rears
> Channel 7 = center
> Channel 8 = sub
> 
> hope that helps



why did you choose to put the midbass on the ch 1/2??

I thought those channels created the center integration points?

this is a good idea though, maybe Ill keep my dqxs (I was going to go back to passives for the tweeter/mid crossover)


so you took the single pair ms8 analog OUTPUTS, into a crossover, and then use TWO pairs of post crossover analog outputs into your amps.

when setting up the ms8 crossover on the OUTPUT 3/4 did you only set the highpass filter ONLY? or can you do the initial tuning WITHOUT setting a crossover on ch 3/4 (or did I just answer my own question as to why you flipped the tweets/mids to ch 3/4??)

thanks


----------



## rain27

Shocks said:


> It's really good to hear some positive feedback on the MS-8, I'm on the fence between an MS-8 and P99RS. I'm currently using Zapco amps and from my understanding but someone please correct me if I'm wrong, I would have to replace the Symbilink for RCA's runs. I don't know how much of a difference that would make but I have a absolutely zero audible noisefloor and would like to keep it that way. I have no doubt that the MS-8 is truly a remarkable piece but I'm not sure if it would be worthwhile to ditch the Symbilink for RCA's. Can someone chime in? Thanks


I wouldn't let this stop me from getting an MS-8. Besides, wouldn't you still use the Symbilink to RCA adapters whether you used the P99 or MS-8 anyway?


----------



## AdamS

newtitan said:


> why did you choose to put the midbass on the ch 1/2??
> 
> I thought those channels created the center integration points?
> 
> this is a good idea though, maybe Ill keep my dqxs (I was going to go back to passives for the tweeter/mid crossover)
> 
> 
> so you took the single pair ms8 analog OUTPUTS, into a crossover, and then use TWO pairs of post crossover analog outputs into your amps.
> 
> when setting up the ms8 crossover on the OUTPUT 3/4 did you only set the highpass filter ONLY? or can you do the initial tuning WITHOUT setting a crossover on ch 3/4 (or did I just answer my own question as to why you flipped the tweets/mids to ch 3/4??)
> 
> thanks


output channel mapping is totally configurable. use any channel for any driver


----------



## t3sn4f2

Shocks said:


> It's really good to hear some positive feedback on the MS-8, I'm on the fence between an MS-8 and P99RS. I'm currently using Zapco amps and from my understanding but someone please correct me if I'm wrong, I would have to replace the Symbilink for RCA's runs. I don't know how much of a difference that would make but I have a absolutely zero audible noisefloor and would like to keep it that way. I have no doubt that the MS-8 is truly a remarkable piece but I'm not sure if it would be worthwhile to ditch the Symbilink for RCA's. Can someone chime in? Thanks





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> All inputs of MS-8 are balanced-differential--line level and speaker level.


That means you can send the fully balanced symbi signal from the _transmitter_ straight into the appropriate input on the MS-8.


----------



## Thaid and Bound

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yup. Same deal. I'll be there too.


And Thailand?


----------



## BigRed

as Adam said, you can use any channel for any output. just remember them when you are doing setup. (I wrote them down) the cool thing is it verifys all channels for you audibly. before calibrating it allows you to run noise thru left, right, center, rears, and subs. 

you have to pick crossovers and drivers before calibration 

hope this helps


----------



## masswork

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Units will arrive in Indonesia next month and I'll be there in July sometime.


*GREAT!!! *
I think i have to meet you here someday. What do you like to eat? Nice dinner perhaps?
I'll send you a PM ok?


----------



## jacar

The MS-8 sounds like the perfect solution to my car-a 2010 bmw 328i with a poor base sound system-no tweeters, no center, 4" on the doors, 6" subs under the seats and a pair of 4" rear deck. Will I see much improvement?-should I install tweeters in the sails? Upgrade the door/deck speakers?
Thanks in advance, I'm really looking forward to installing this.


----------



## 14642

michaelsil1 said:


> Adam,
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> I sent Andy a PM hopefully he can help, I just want the unit up and running yesterday.


Michael,
Check your PM. I can swap your unit this weekend if you're in LA.


----------



## Ianaconi

And Brazil? Any news about the official release?


----------



## Shocks

rain27 said:


> I wouldn't let this stop me from getting an MS-8. Besides, wouldn't you still use the Symbilink to RCA adapters whether you used the P99 or MS-8 anyway?


I think you're right I just wasn't sure If I would be able to keep the Zapco BLT in the signal chain. Thanks


----------



## 14642

Thaid and Bound said:


> And Thailand?


Good question. I hope so...I could really go for some hoi tod.


----------



## BigRed

just spent 2 hours in the truck playing everything under the sun. I especially played music recorded in church's and large rooms. you will NEVER get 2 channel to do what this thing does....end of story


----------



## t3sn4f2

BigRed said:


> just spent 2 hours in the truck playing everything under the sun. I especially played music recorded in church's and large rooms. *you will NEVER get 2 channel to do what this thing does....end of story*


Dude....you're ruining my plans for rear deck subs firing out the stock speaker locations.


----------



## bkjay

BigRed said:


> just spent 2 hours in the truck playing everything under the sun. I especially played music recorded in church's and large rooms. you will NEVER get 2 channel to do what this thing does....end of story


Please stop!!! Your going to make me spend money I don't have LOL!


----------



## 14642

BigRed said:


> just spent 2 hours in the truck playing everything under the sun. I especially played music recorded in church's and large rooms. you will NEVER get 2 channel to do what this thing does....end of story


Right! Cool. I'm really glad you like it.


----------



## 60ndown

BigRed said:


> just spent 2 hours in the truck playing everything under the sun. I especially played music recorded in church's and large rooms.


if i have to listen to that to appreciate the ms8 im keeping my monies


----------



## 14642

That's pretty funny. I just downloaded it onto my Zune and tried to play it through my MS-8. Adam must have put an Easter Egg in the code. The display read, "You must be kidding. I'm not playing that crap" and MS-8 shut off.


----------



## CraigE

BigRed said:


> just spent 2 hours in the truck playing everything under the sun. I especially played music recorded in church's and large rooms. you will NEVER get 2 channel to do what this thing does....end of story


What a coincidence, I just spent a couple hours listening also. It is REALLY good.
The more I listen, the more I like it. The increased depth is is the first thing that strikes me.
No rear fill yet.I have JBL P562 (5 1/4" coaxial) on order, for rear fill.


----------



## ErinH

Just out of curiosity, what drivers are you guys running for rear fill?


----------



## Se7en

Andy,

I have a question about the MS8 processing. I've had mine installed for a few hours now and feel like I've lost an enormous amount of system gain/headroom.

Using the line level outputs from my factory HU, the MS8 is telling me that the signal is too low until I've turned the volume up to 70% or so. 

I'm assuming that the EQ is is bringing everything way down, but am not sure what it would do in the case of a null. It seems like I have to turn the system up almost to the point of clipping to get it to a reasonable/loud level when driving at regular highway speeds.

Thanks for any insight you can offer.

On a side note, the staging is excellent, very focused, very high and centered. Tonality seems to be good as well.


----------



## 14642

Se7en said:


> Andy,
> 
> I have a question about the MS8 processing. I've had mine installed for a few hours now and feel like I've lost an enormous amount of system gain/headroom.
> 
> Using the line level outputs from my factory HU, the MS8 is telling me that the signal is too low until I've turned the volume up to 70% or so.
> 
> I'm assuming that the EQ is is bringing everything way down, but am not sure what it would do in the case of a null. It seems like I have to turn the system up almost to the point of clipping to get it to a reasonable/loud level when driving at regular highway speeds.
> 
> Thanks for any insight you can offer.
> 
> On a side note, the staging is excellent, very focused, very high and centered. Tonality seems to be good as well.


There are a couple of things you can do. The first is turn your head unit's volume control up higher while you listen. Depending on the recording, there will be lots of crest factor or not so much. You can deterine the max volume setting with music by turning MS-8's volume down to -20 or so and turning up the head unit until you hear distortion that annoys you. Then, turn it down a bit. 

If you're usiing additional amplifiers, turn the input sensitivity controls down, re-run acoustic calibration and then turn the input sensitivity up on all the amps by the same amount. That ought to fix it.


----------



## Se7en

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> There are a couple of things you can do. The first is turn your head unit's volume control up higher while you listen. Depending on the recording, there will be lots of crest factor or not so much. You can deterine the max volume setting with music by turning MS-8's volume down to -20 or so and turning up the head unit until you hear distortion that annoys you. Then, turn it down a bit.
> 
> If you're usiing additional amplifiers, turn the input sensitivity controls down, re-run acoustic calibration and then turn the input sensitivity up on all the amps by the same amount. That ought to fix it.


Thanks for the reply. 

That's interesting. So, you'd recommend increasing the amplifier gain after doing the calibration.

I'll give both of these a shot.


----------



## 60ndown

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> That's pretty funny. I just downloaded it onto my Zune and tried to play it through my MS-8. Adam must have put an Easter Egg in the code. The display read, "You must be kidding. I'm not playing that crap" and MS-8 shut off.


:laugh:


----------



## james2266

Andy, I just sent you a PM. Looking for an authorized dealer in my area (Canada).


----------



## quality_sound

Se7en said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> That's interesting. So, you'd recommend increasing the amplifier gain after doing the calibration.
> 
> I'll give both of these a shot.


Why is everyone scared to use their gain controls? The MS-8 still only has 2.8V of output at full tilt. Crank them bitches up!


----------



## AdamS

Se7en said:


> Andy,
> 
> I have a question about the MS8 processing. I've had mine installed for a few hours now and feel like I've lost an enormous amount of system gain/headroom.
> 
> Using the line level outputs from my factory HU, the MS8 is telling me that the signal is too low until I've turned the volume up to 70% or so.
> 
> I'm assuming that the EQ is is bringing everything way down, but am not sure what it would do in the case of a null. It seems like I have to turn the system up almost to the point of clipping to get it to a reasonable/loud level when driving at regular highway speeds.
> 
> Thanks for any insight you can offer.
> 
> On a side note, the staging is excellent, very focused, very high and centered. Tonality seems to be good as well.


The input and output calibration are decoupled. When the input goes from LOW to OK, that's a few dB below the clipping point of the input. As Andy said, you can probably go a bit higher than this.

On the output, you can always crank up the gain on your amps before acoustic calibration, but then run calibration at master volume -48 dB (an example). This is like turning a 21 bit calibration -20 dB) into a 16 bit calibration. This will still work well. Then, when calibration is complete, crank the master volume back up.

There's more than on way to do this. I'm just trying to give you more options.

Somewhat related...

Another way to save some dB in the output stage... if you have a position selector in the car already, put it in Front or All instead of Driver. MS8 will have less level matching to do and thus save that headroom.


----------



## Se7en

AdamS said:


> The input and output calibration are decoupled. When the input goes from LOW to OK, that's a few dB below the clipping point of the input. As Andy said, you can probably go a bit higher than this.
> 
> On the output, you can always crank up the gain on your amps before acoustic calibration, but then run calibration at master volume -48 dB (an example). This is like turning a 21 bit calibration -20 dB) into a 16 bit calibration. This will still work well. Then, when calibration is complete, crank the master volume back up.
> 
> There's more than on way to do this. I'm just trying to give you more options.
> 
> Somewhat related...
> 
> Another way to save some dB in the output stage... if you have a position selector in the car already, put it in Front or All instead of Driver. MS8 will have less level matching to do and thus save that headroom.


Adam,

This is great info. Thank you!


----------



## CraigE

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I just want an MS-8 of my own so I can put away the RTA and the mics and have fun listening.



That's what I'm doing.


----------



## Se7en

quality_sound said:


> Why is everyone scared to use their gain controls? The MS-8 still only has 2.8V of output at full tilt. Crank them bitches up!


I'm not afraid to use my gain control but was unsure of using gain controls after having the system equalized. It sort of defeats the purpose of having the MS8 is level match your system.

I also think you guys might be missing the point of my original question. I've lost probably close to 15db out of my system. I have my HU volume turned up to 80-85% borderline clipping and the MS8 turned up 100% (basically over-driving the whole thing) and I barely have respectable volume levels when driving at freeway levels. The situation seems very odd and just turning up the gain sensitivity on either my amps or line drivers seems a bit premature when something else seems very off.


----------



## michaelsil1

AdamS said:


> Sorry to hear that. Andy can connect you with the right folks.
> 
> If you want to check your result anyways, you can move Input 1/2 to Aux, switch Input to Aux, and then listen.
> 
> Input 1/2 (skip input setup) should be equivalent to Aux in signal path (with the exception that Aux gain can also be used)


Adam,

I just wanted to let you know that I got the unit to work with the Aux Input. This presented a number of problems, first problem the unit wanted to stay in the please wait state finally after pushing the reset button several times it decided to work. Second problem when I went through the whole setup and measurement stage it didn't sound that good. I changed a few settings in the menu (I couldn't set anything the first time) and ran the measurement cycle again this time the results were pretty damn impressive. I can't wait to get the replacement unit and see what the MS-8 can really do.


----------



## 14642

Se7en said:


> I'm not afraid to use my gain control but was unsure of using gain controls after have the system equalized. It sort of defeats the purpose of having the MS8 is level match your system.
> 
> I also think you guys might be missing the point of my original question. I've lost probably close to 15db out of my system. I have my HU volume turned up to 80-85% borderline clipping and the MS8 turned up 100% (basically over-driving the whole thing) and I barely have respectable volume levels when driving at freeway levels. The situation seems very odd and just turning up the gain sensitivity on either my amps or line drivers seems a bit premature when something else seems very off.


Before we go any further, it would be helpful to know a bit more about your system--not because there's anything wrong with what you have, rather, in order to figure out how we can make all of this stuff work together. 

You're using the OE head...what car is it? Where in the signal chain is the line driver? Before or after MS-8?


----------



## Buzzman

I am going to get a chance to hear 2 systems today that now include the MS-8 and I am looking forward to it based on everything I have heard. Andy, one question: after the MS-8 works it's auto tune magic, is the user able to find out what specific EQing was done? In other words, which frequencies were EQd, what amount of cut or boost was utilized, etc.?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Buzzman said:


> I am going to get a chance to hear 2 systems today that now include the MS-8 and I am looking forward to it based on everything I have heard. Andy, one question: after the MS-8 works it's auto tune magic, is the user able to find out what specific EQing was done? In other words, which frequencies were EQd, what amount of cut or boost was utilized, etc.?


TOP SECRET.


----------



## 14642

Buzzman said:


> I am going to get a chance to hear 2 systems today that now include the MS-8 and I am looking forward to it based on everything I have heard. Andy, one question: after the MS-8 works it's auto tune magic, is the user able to find out what specific EQing was done? In other words, which frequencies were EQd, what amount of cut or boost was utilized, etc.?


MS-8 won't display that information, but if you're dying to find out, you can connect an analyzer to the inputs and the outputs, run pink noise through it and determine it that way. If you also want to see what the delay compensation is, you'll need to make impulse response measurements through the device and then do an FFT of the impulse to get the frequency response. The analyzer shuld be able to do that.


----------



## Se7en

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Before we go any further, it would be helpful to know a bit more about your system--not because there's anything wrong with what you have, rather, in order to figure out how we can make all of this stuff work together.
> 
> You're using the OE head...what car is it? Where in the signal chain is the line driver? Before or after MS-8?



Andy, the car is a 2009 Cadillac CTS-V. I'm using the OEM 5.1 Bose system as a source. 

Per the install instructions on the MS8, I am only sending front L/R stereo and mono sub signals to the MS8, line level from the Bose amplifier. We took extra care to ensure that none of the OEM center or surround signals were going to the MS8. Also, OEM head has been set to it's default "normal" mode, all tone controls are set to "flat".

The MS8 is running in 3 way mode (no center). 

There are two TRU SLD6i line drivers coming directly off of the MS8 and going to the amplifiers. Their gains are currently set at 50%. The first line driver is dedicated to the front stage amplifier, the second one is currently only running to the subwoofer amp. 

The front stage amplifer is a TRU Billet 8, configured as a 6 channel amp (4X100 to front mid & tweets and 2x300 running the front midbass). The Sub amp is a TRU Billet 2200 running in bridged mode (1x600) to a single sub. Of note: All amplifier gains are currently set to zero gain, in my previous configuration, this was enough to bring the car to "ear splitting" concert levels.

I selected XO points very similar to my previous setup for the initial MS8 setup. I did make one change (not underlapping the sub and midbass based on your recommendations). I'm using 24db slopes across the board. Sub is running from 20-50hz, midbass (Dynaudio MW182 9.4") 50-350hz, midrange (4") 350-3250hz, tweeters 3250hz-up. The mids & tweets are mounted in the kick panels, the midbass are in the factory door locations.

From what I can tell is that the EQ is bringing all system levels down. If I "defeat" the processing almost all of the system headroom returns (obviously all levels and EQ are out of whack though). As soon as I turn the processing back on, it's as if I turned the volume down by 50% or more. This is why I asked about what the MS8 would do if for example it was fighting a null or nasty dip, would it try to eq everything down?

Also, I do want to make something clear for anyone reading this, I think that I'm having an isolated issue, but what the MS8 is doing for staging, coherence and tonal balance is pretty awesome. 

In any event, I appreciate you giving this your attention Andy. MS8 from what I can tell is a pretty amazing piece of equipment and you guys deserve major props. I just need to figure out the best way to get my volume back. 

Thanks!


----------



## 14642

MS-8's EQ does boost and cut, but there's a big list of rules that affect how much boost and cut. If you have a huge midbass or midrange peak without the EQ, then the results of EQ would be a pretty big reduction in the level. The same might happen if the level of the high frequencies was really low before tuning. 

Try Adam's suggestion of reducing the level of MS-8's volume control during calibration. If that's not acceptable, then try adjusting the settings on your line driver. It may be easier to turn it down during calibration and then turn it back up afterward to get the level you want. 

Finally, I'm assuming that you aren't running rear speakers, right? If you are and you're using MS-8's amplifier to drive them, then the huge difference between their output and the output of the front system may be the issue. If that's the case, then turning the amps or the line driver down and then back up is the best solution--or adding an amp for the rear. 

Wait, I just read your post again and it's obvious that you aren't running rear speakers.


----------



## Buzzman

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8 won't display that information, but if you're dying to find out, you can connect an analyzer to the inputs and the outputs, run pink noise through it and determine it that way. If you also want to see what the delay compensation is, you'll need to make impulse response measurements through the device and then do an FFT of the impulse to get the frequency response. The analyzer shuld be able to do that.


Got it. Thanks.


----------



## AdamS

Se7en said:


> Andy, the car is a 2009 Cadillac CTS-V. I'm using the OEM 5.1 Bose system as a source.
> 
> Per the install instructions on the MS8, I am only sending front L/R stereo and mono sub signals to the MS8, line level from the Bose amplifier. We took extra care to ensure that none of the OEM center or surround signals were going to the MS8. Also, OEM head has been set to it's default "normal" mode, all tone controls are set to "flat".
> 
> The MS8 is running in 3 way mode (no center).
> 
> There are two TRU SLD6i line drivers coming directly off of the MS8 and going to the amplifiers. Their gains are currently set at 50%. The first line driver is dedicated to the front stage amplifier, the second one is currently only running to the subwoofer amp.
> 
> The front stage amplifer is a TRU Billet 8, configured as a 6 channel amp (4X100 to front mid & tweets and 2x300 running the front midbass). The Sub amp is a TRU Billet 2200 running in bridged mode (1x600) to a single sub. Of note: All amplifier gains are currently set to zero gain, in my previous configuration, this was enough to bring the car to "ear splitting" concert levels.
> 
> I selected XO points very similar to my previous setup for the initial MS8 setup. I did make one change (not underlapping the sub and midbass based on your recommendations). I'm using 24db slopes across the board. Sub is running from 20-50hz, midbass (Dynaudio MW182 9.4") 50-350hz, midrange (4") 350-3250hz, tweeters 3250hz-up. The mids & tweets are mounted in the kick panels, the midbass are in the factory door locations.
> 
> From what I can tell is that the EQ is bringing all system levels down. If I "defeat" the processing almost all of the system headroom returns (obviously all levels and EQ are out of whack though). As soon as I turn the processing back on, it's as if I turned the volume down by 50% or more. This is why I asked about what the MS8 would do if for example it was fighting a null or nasty dip, would it try to eq everything down?
> 
> Also, I do want to make something clear for anyone reading this, I think that I'm having an isolated issue, but what the MS8 is doing for staging, coherence and tonal balance is pretty awesome.
> 
> In any event, I appreciate you giving this your attention Andy. MS8 from what I can tell is a pretty amazing piece of equipment and you guys deserve major props. I just need to figure out the best way to get my volume back.
> 
> Thanks!


Try this as an experiment.... disconnect the subwoofer input and re-run. This usually works quite well (I use it my car) if the sub/front crossover from the OE is < 80 Hz or so.

I'll explain more later if this helps.


----------



## ErinH

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8's EQ does boost and cut, but there's a big list of rules that affect how much boost and cut.


This relates to what I was going to ask...

When the ms-8 does it's thing (setting levels, etc) is it always based on the highest setting? Ie: it lowers levels and does eq cuts only? From the above, it does both cut & boost on EQ, but what about levels?

This would factor into how you would want to set gains up, too, I would suspect?



Would you advice using an RTA after calibration is ran to determine what the output level is, then using it again to help you raise your amps' gain so that you simply adjust your entire system level equally? Is an alternative to this simply using a DMM and raising the amps' gain stages equally by X.XX volts?


I've read through the manual and saw some mention of this, but nothing that clearly defined the levels adjustment question. At least, I don't think it did.


----------



## Se7en

AdamS said:


> Try this as an experiment.... disconnect the subwoofer input and re-run. This usually works quite well (I use it my car) if the sub/front crossover from the OE is < 80 Hz or so.
> 
> I'll explain more later if this helps.


Adam,

Will do. I won't be able to do this right now though as I'm at work and all speaker connections form the OEM to the MS8 harness are soldered.

If you're in a position to explain a little now that would be cool, I suspect the OE XO point is/was around 80hz.

Thanks!


----------



## AdamS

Se7en said:


> Adam,
> 
> Will do. I won't be able to do this right now though as I'm at work and all speaker connections form the OEM to the MS8 harness are soldered.
> 
> If you're in a position to explain a little now that would be cool, I suspect the OE XO point is/was around 80hz.
> 
> Thanks!


I will write a more formal debug procedure (Andy may do his own).

Start by viewing the system as having 3 components, signal summing (only for OE users), Logic7/Bass Managment/etc, and acoustic EQ.

I'm trying to rule out one part of the system at a time, in this case signal summing. 

The easiest way to rule this out is to send a signal from your Ipod/Zune/etc into Aux In. You'll need to add gain in the Aux volume since these system will likely be 1 V. But this should be wideband 2 channel with no signal summing. This will tell you directly whether signal summing is introducing a cut somehow. I'm using a different approach here since the Subwoofer input can be really high relative to the L/R input, possibly higher than I've seen. In my car, it's 36 dB higher than the low-mid, and the mid is 10 dB higher than the mid/tweet. The EQ does have some gain limits. I'm trying to see if any of these were hit.

The next thing to realize, is that our target is about +9 dB in the bass region. This means that the speakers (non-subwoofer) are essentially pushed down by 9 dB in order to accommodate the target. To check if you are losing 9 dB from this, Using the Sub control in the Audio Controls menu, bring it to -9 dB, then increase your amp gain by +9 to see if you are getting back the gain that you once had. If this is the problem, then basically, you have sacrificed 9 dB for better tonal quality. 

Level matching is where a few dB could also be lost. If you are only tuning for the one position (say driver), then you can pre-level match before running MS8. Then MS8 will apply less gain to the lower leveled channel, and thus it will clip less soon. But if you are using several optimizations, then this may not be such a clear way to go.

Lastly, its doubtful that Logic7/Bass Management/etc will introduce any of these artifacts.

MS8 tunes with what it is given, but there still is some under the hood flexibility.


----------



## 14642

Thanks Adam.


----------



## rain27

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8's EQ does boost and cut, but there's a big list of rules that affect how much boost and cut. If you have a huge midbass or midrange peak without the EQ, then the results of EQ would be a pretty big reduction in the level. The same might happen if the level of the high frequencies was really low before tuning.
> 
> Try Adam's suggestion of reducing the level of MS-8's volume control during calibration. If that's not acceptable, then try adjusting the settings on your line driver. It may be easier to turn it down during calibration and then turn it back up afterward to get the level you want.
> 
> Finally, I'm assuming that you aren't running rear speakers, right? If you are and you're using MS-8's amplifier to drive them, then the huge difference between their output and the output of the front system may be the issue. If that's the case, then turning the amps or the line driver down and then back up is the best solution--or adding an amp for the rear.
> 
> Wait, I just read your post again and it's obvious that you aren't running rear speakers.


Andy,
Could the huge midbass peak be due to having large midbass drivers (8 to 10 inches)? Or is this due to having the gains turned up too high for the midbass drivers?


----------



## AdamS

rain27 said:


> Andy,
> Could the huge midbass peak be due to having large midbass drivers (8 to 10 inches)? Or is this due to having the gains turned up too high for the midbass drivers?



Sorry guys. Been running around in circles all morning.
I re-read the post.

It doesn't sound like a summing issue at all.

And in most cases Processing On is louder than Processing Off. This is due to the fact that level matching takes all speakers and increases the gain to match the loudest speaker, and then the subwoofer is matched separately. It could go up or down to match the maximum speaker loudness.

So the question then becomes, are you judging the loudness based on the subwoofer level or based on the speaker level or both?

If you do a setup without the subwoofer, you can easily see if the Processing on is still quieter than processing off. If On is louder than Off, then you are misperceiving the gain issue due to an appropriate subwoofer cut.

If this is the case, then decrease the gain on the sub amp by 10 dB, re-run setup, and then increase the gain if you really like more bass (and want to do it in the amp due to digital headroom limitations. Otherwise, you can always increase the Sub level in the Audio Control menu.

If processing on is still quieter than off (with subwoofer eliminated), then as specified above, it is indeed related to the EQ curve itself.


----------



## AdamS

michaelsil1 said:


> Adam,
> 
> I just wanted to let you know that I got the unit to work with the Aux Input. This presented a number of problems, first problem the unit wanted to stay in the please wait state finally after pushing the reset button several times it decided to work. Second problem when I went through the whole setup and measurement stage it didn't sound that good. I changed a few settings in the menu (I couldn't set anything the first time) and ran the measurement cycle again this time the results were pretty damn impressive. I can't wait to get the replacement unit and see what the MS-8 can really do.


Glad you can see a good result. This is the first RCA issue I have seen. We'll analyze your unit when we get it back.

Just for everyone to know, if the unit starts at 'Please Wait...' and just stays there its likely the display cable wasn't plugged in securely.

The reset button does nothing different than turning the remote Off and then back On (turning car off and on), so there's no need to go back to the trunk and try to find that button.


----------



## Se7en

Adam,

I have another question. How hot should the MS8 get? Mine is flush mounted into a side panel (lot's of airspace) and is mounted verically on it's side.

I ask because it is VERY hot to the touch and keeps switching on and off during setup. This could be due to the OE turning on and off (which is where the MS8 get's its trigger) or could it be that the MS8 is doing a thermal shut down due to how I have it mounted?

Thanks!

Edit: Actually, I was wondering if you and/or Andy can get PMs. I've sent some before but never got anything back. I'd much rather take any trouble shooting that I have to do off line so not to muddy this thread. I suspect that any issues I'm having are unique to my setup. Thx.


----------



## AdamS

Se7en said:


> Adam,
> 
> I have another question. How hot should the MS8 get? Mine is flush mounted into a side panel (lot's of airspace) and is mounted verically on it's side.
> 
> I ask because it is VERY hot to the touch and keeps switching on and off during setup. This could be due to the OE turning on and off (which is where the MS8 get's its trigger) or could it be that the MS8 is doing a thermal shut down due to how I have it mounted?
> 
> Thanks!


Do you see an error on the display when it switches on and off? What does it say? It'll tell you if there an error for over/under voltage and over temperature.


----------



## 14642

rain27 said:


> Andy,
> Could the huge midbass peak be due to having large midbass drivers (8 to 10 inches)? Or is this due to having the gains turned up too high for the midbass drivers?


It'll be an acoustic condition--that could be because the drivers are big and efficient or because the gain is up on the midbass channels. In any case, too much midbass or midrange will definitely be fixed by MS-8, but a huge and broad peak at about 600Hz is pretty common and makes the car sound really loud. Once that's fixed, it won't sound so loud. If you like a really thick midbassy sound, use the 31-band EQ to put it back.


----------



## AAAAAAA

It's great with this thing, one wouldn't have to practice at being a good tuner, one can focus only on installations\fabrication skills.

It's pretty cool Andy that you visit here even on weekends.


----------



## rockondon

Way cool of both of them to give up so much weekend time.Thanks guys.

Andy i'm planing on getting the MS-8 soon.

But first I have speaker questions. I have the Dyn 360 for the front 
[8in MBs}. But how important is having a larger center. It seems a 4" will fit my center real easy. After that should I stay with 4" sides n rear. ? Or can I step up to 6.5 there. ? 

Is it very important to keep them matching. Cause I have a bunch of random stuff I can use. But can get matching if necessary


----------



## Se7en

X10 to both Andy and Adam for their support!

I thought I'd post up a few pics of the MS8 in my car. I'm really excited about this processor and am looking forward to getting this thing fully up and running the way you guys intended.  

Nice work guys!





































I only included this one because the light hit the amps just right.


----------



## bkjay

Nice I love it! Sick!


----------



## CraigE

I like the location that the display is mounted.
Thanks for the pix.
Nice system you have.:thumbsup:
Not to mention that badassed Caddy.


----------



## michaelsil1

Does the MS-8 save the settings if the power is disconnected?


----------



## AdamS

michaelsil1 said:


> Does the MS-8 save the settings if the power is disconnected?


It saves when
1. setup finishes
2. remote in is disabled (ignition off)

If you lose power and get it back, it will go back to 1 or 2, whichever is the newest


----------



## michaelsil1

I have another question. 


I read in the manual that JBL highly recommends using 24db slopes would I run into any issues using (Phasing, SQ) 12db slopes?


----------



## BigRed

^^ run 24 and forget about it. Let the MS-8 do what no man can do 

Michael, if you fell after the calibration the amplitude is too low, just boost 20hz-20kh up 6 db  j/k

enjoy


----------



## IBcivic

Se7en said:


> X10 to both Andy and Adam for their support!
> 
> I thought I'd post up a few pics of the MS8 in my car. I'm really excited about this processor and am looking forward to getting this thing fully up and running the way you guys intended.
> 
> Nice work guys!


 this is how i like em>clean, maximum functionality retained and with no excessive bling. pure sex


----------



## michaelsil1

BigRed said:


> ^^ run 24 and forget about it. Let the MS-8 do what no man can do
> 
> Michael, if you fell after the calibration the amplitude is too low, just boost 20hz-20kh up 6 db  j/k
> 
> enjoy


I can't run the calibration in Aux Mode. I have plenty of Amplitude.


----------



## BigRed

there is nothin to calibrate, except finding the maximum volume your deck will clip at. Its an aftermarket deck


----------



## quality_sound

Adam or Andy,

I need a hand with power distribution (watts per channel, not amp power)

The car is a 2010 M3 sedan. The interior should be the same as your demo car.

Speakers:
Front doors - Morel Hybrid Ovation 4"
Center - Morel Integra Ovation 4"
Rear - Morel Integra Ovation 4" 
Subs - OEM underseat

Amps:
JL Audio HD600/4 (150x4 or 300x2)
JL Audio HD 900/5 (100x4 or 150x2 & 500x1)

With everything as above I'm thinking the 600/4 on the doors and center with one channel unused, and the 900/5 bridged to the rears and the subs on the sub channel. This way everything sees 150 Watts and the subs get 250 each.

Here's my dilemma. When I decide on a sub I want to swap out the OEM "subs" and run a true midbass and add a true sub in the trunk. How would be the best way to accomplish this with what I have? I was going to run the rears off of the MS-8, but after reading about the difficulties with regard to overall volume level I'm hesitant to go that route. 

Would something like the below setup work well considering the power difference between the center and the door/deck speakers?
600/4 - center and midbasses (150 Watts each, one channel open)
900/5 - doors, rears, and sub (100 Watts, 100 watts, 500 Watts)

Thanks guys.

Paul


----------



## AdamS

michaelsil1 said:


> I have another question.
> 
> 
> I read in the manual that JBL highly recommends using 24db slopes would I run into any issues using (Phasing, SQ) 12db slopes?


I'll give you the beginning of the answer and then you can tell me if your eyes are glazed over or if you want to know more...

LR or Butterworth filters in the acoustic domain don't add well for 2nd order. In fact, they cause a null. This is easy to fix. Either the lowpass or the highpass signal needs to be flipped.

So let's suppose you have L/R (2-way), cutoff of 80Hz, 1K

and a center cutoff of 200Hz, 1-way

Then for L/R....

0-80 negative polarity
80 - 1K positive polarity
1K and up negative polarity

This in and of itself would be fine.

But now add in your center.

0-200 negative polarity
200 and up positive polarity

Now let's map these together.

0-80 L and R negative, C negative
80 to 200, L and R positive, C negative (this isn't good)
200 to 1K, L and R positive, C positive
1K and up all positive

So basically in this example from 80 to 200 you get out of phase stuff. 

If you have a 2 way system or if your speakers are all the same, this will be OK. We take the Lowest L/R driver as the positive reference and flip the rest as needed to avoid nulls.

Lesson here, unless you really have a need for 2nd order, try not to do it. It's the only way I really know how to make things sound poorly, with or without MS8.


----------



## 14642

Well, all of that is true and it matters most when we're summing electrical signals. The electrical signal only matters for acoustic purposes since it modifies the acoustic signal. The phase that Adam is referring to is measured on the electrical output. 

The phase between two drivers that must combine acoustically to provide the appropriate response at the listening position also depends on the distance between those two drivers and the listening position. If you have an RTA, you can sort this out so long as you have some way to adjust the phase---hmmm...don't know of any aftermarket processors that allow this to be done manually. So, my suggetsion is to use steeper slopes which minimize the need for all of this work, because the range where the drivers have to be in proper phase alignment is minimized--less overlap or a smaller transition band--call it what you want. 

For speakers mounted close together on a flat baffle (like a home speaker), the rule about electrical filters that Adam has explained loosely translates to acoustic responses because of the position and the proximity of the drivers and the fact that they can often be filtered in a range where their response is flat. In cars, this is rarely the case and the benefits of mounting the tweeters high in the car and the woofers low in the car where they fit outweigh the crossover phase crapshoot mitigation that might be achievable by mounting the speakers closer together.

Use a 4th order setting between speakers and lower orders on the top or bottom of the entire band you're reproducing. There's no need for a 4th order subsonic filter unless your subs are small. I suggest a 2nd order there. If you're using rear speakers, set them at 100Hz 4th order for other reasons that I can explain later. That's a L7 deal and my suggestion will preserve midbass impact and the illusion of bass up front.


----------



## 14642

quality_sound said:


> Adam or Andy,
> 
> I need a hand with power distribution (watts per channel, not amp power)
> 
> The car is a 2010 M3 sedan. The interior should be the same as your demo car.
> 
> Speakers:
> Front doors - Morel Hybrid Ovation 4"
> Center - Morel Integra Ovation 4"
> Rear - Morel Integra Ovation 4"
> Subs - OEM underseat
> 
> Amps:
> JL Audio HD600/4 (150x4 or 300x2)
> JL Audio HD 900/5 (100x4 or 150x2 & 500x1)
> 
> With everything as above I'm thinking the 600/4 on the doors and center with one channel unused, and the 900/5 bridged to the rears and the subs on the sub channel. This way everything sees 150 Watts and the subs get 250 each.
> 
> Here's my dilemma. When I decide on a sub I want to swap out the OEM "subs" and run a true midbass and add a true sub in the trunk. How would be the best way to accomplish this with what I have? I was going to run the rears off of the MS-8, but after reading about the difficulties with regard to overall volume level I'm hesitant to go that route.
> 
> Would something like the below setup work well considering the power difference between the center and the door/deck speakers?
> 600/4 - center and midbasses (150 Watts each, one channel open)
> 900/5 - doors, rears, and sub (100 Watts, 100 watts, 500 Watts)
> 
> Thanks guys.
> 
> Paul


I'd do it a little differently. I'd bridge two 100-watt channels to the center. Then, I'd use two 150-watt channels for the front right and left. The other two 150-watt channels for the midbass and 100 x 2 for the rear. The OEM subs make GREAT midbass drivers. Save your money and keep those speakers. I think ultimately, you may require more power for the sub, but there's no need to make that decision now, unless you don't already own the amps.


----------



## ErinH

Can you guys tell me how long the cable for the binaural mic headset is? I didn't see it mentioned in the manual anywhere.

Also, for those who might want to run a cable in their car so they can just tap into it out of their glovebox, would a standard stereo 3.5mm extender cable work? Like this:
Amazon.com: 3.5mm Stereo Headphone Extension 15 ft. Straight:&#133;


----------



## CraigE

bikinpunk said:


> Can you guys tell me how long the cable for the binaural mic headset is? I didn't see it mentioned in the manual anywhere.
> 
> Also, for those who might want to run a cable in their car so they can just tap into it out of their glovebox, would a standard stereo 3.5mm extender cable work? Like this:
> Amazon.com: 3.5mm Stereo Headphone Extension 15 ft. Straight:…



19' 8" tip to Y
1' 0" Y to headset


----------



## jimbno1

Hey Big Red,
Did you use the MS-8 in the F-350? If so what did you use for a center and are the left and right L8 midbasses wasted in a setup with a center? 

The relative small size of the center channel speakers and lack of enclosure would seem to preclude true midbass reproduction. I know it has been said many times in this thread it is not necessary to have large midbasses. But center channels in a vehicle are even more limited in install options than kicks or doors. How is it possible to get a small center to play to say 80 Hz for an abitrary frequency? For instance small speakers have trouble doing that in home stereo applications with optimum boxes. How is it accomplished in a vehicle?

Should I just sell my 8" midbasses and just get matched 5.25's (if I can even mount that in the center of my dash)?


----------



## rockondon

I actually read over half this thread over two days. [from last ,back to like page 80. And from page one to around 25.]

But didn't find a answer about if it is nescessary to keep one kind of speakers
in this setup. Such as mixing brands ,size or types.

Can anybody recall and maybe help out here.

I hope I wont need to buy more and can use the hodgepodge of stuff I have. Otherwise I have like 6 sets of coax to comps collecting more dust.:blush:

PS I did ask this before. Post 2886 last page.


----------



## 14642

Nope. Use what you have. No need to replace all of your stuff.


----------



## Se7en

Yes, a single 3.5mm adapter also works.

I ran my extension to just under the rear seat and keep the headphones in the rear seat pocket. 



bikinpunk said:


> Can you guys tell me how long the cable for the binaural mic headset is? I didn't see it mentioned in the manual anywhere.
> 
> Also, for those who might want to run a cable in their car so they can just tap into it out of their glovebox, would a standard stereo 3.5mm extender cable work? Like this:
> Amazon.com: 3.5mm Stereo Headphone Extension 15 ft. Straight:…


----------



## BigRed

jimbno1 said:


> Hey Big Red,
> Did you use the MS-8 in the F-350? If so what did you use for a center and are the left and right L8 midbasses wasted in a setup with a center?
> 
> The relative small size of the center channel speakers and lack of enclosure would seem to preclude true midbass reproduction. I know it has been said many times in this thread it is not necessary to have large midbasses. But center channels in a vehicle are even more limited in install options than kicks or doors. How is it possible to get a small center to play to say 80 Hz for an abitrary frequency? For instance small speakers have trouble doing that in home stereo applications with optimum boxes. How is it accomplished in a vehicle?
> 
> Should I just sell my 8" midbasses and just get matched 5.25's (if I can even mount that in the center of my dash)?


I'm using a L4 and tweeter for center crossed over at 160hz. seems to work brilliantly to my ears. the midbass's are playing 80hz to 160hz. I have played many tracks with stand up bass and no issues so far 

I would not replace one speaker until you try the MS-8 with what you have. I think most of you will be pleasantly surprised


----------



## JoeDirte

Was gonna grab one from Crutchfield but it went out of stock. Anyone know where I could get one locally, perhaps? I'm in Raleigh, NC. Thanks.


----------



## ErinH

Se7en said:


> Yes, a single 3.5mm adapter also works.
> 
> I ran my extension to just under the rear seat and keep the headphones in the rear seat pocket.


Thanks for the answer. 
I'm gutting my IB wall and re-doing it this week and figured I'd better go ahead and pick up an extension cable and keep it in the glovebox in case I run the ms-8... more of a future proofing thing.. 
At this point, I have so many friggin' cables in my car I can't keep them all straight: usb micro, mini, a/b, male/female, cat5... all sorts of crap. You'd think I'm driving a BMW. 


It's important to note that some adapters are mono and some are stereo, so anyone seeing this should remember to order a stereo 3.5mm extender and not a mono extender since the ms-8 uses binaural mics (recording in stereo).


----------



## Se7en

bikinpunk said:


> Thanks for the answer.
> I'm gutting my IB wall and re-doing it this week and figured I'd better go ahead and pick up an extension cable and keep it in the glovebox in case I run the ms-8... more of a future proofing thing..
> At this point, I have so many friggin' cables in my car I can't keep them all straight: usb micro, mini, a/b, male/female, cat5... all sorts of crap. You'd think I'm driving a BMW.
> 
> 
> It's important to note that some adapters are mono and some are stereo, so anyone seeing this should remember to order a stereo 3.5mm extender and not a mono extender since the ms-8 uses binaural mics (recording in stereo).


Good point on the stereo extension.

Also, since you're into future proofing, you might go ahead and run a USB cable to somewhere accessible (in case of firmware updates). I ran one under the front passenger side seat for "just in case".


----------



## billymonter

Andy; How about this setup?
2004 bmw 3coupe Current setup Stock HU with Audiocontrol DQXS 

Sides; Morel elates, 6-1/2” midbass on stock door, 2” mid stock location by door handle, tweeter on sail. 50w from an ADS ph15,

Center; Audiocontrol ESP3, Focal K2 2way 4” mid+1” tweet mounted firing up from the dash. 100w Xtant mono 1.1i

Rears: some old 5-1/4” coaxial polks 50w ph15

Sub; jl audio 12ib4 subwoofer 100w ph15

My proposed setup is(was) jlaudio xd600/6 biamping 75w to sides. Bridged to sub 200w, center 100w from xtant, AND drumroll please 20w to rear from ms-8.

My hope was to mount the ms-8 and amps in the left side trunk CD changer.

Given that I selected the jl amp mainly because of its size, and haven’t bought yet. Is this a reasonable setup? or is it full of holes? 

TIA


----------



## Thaid and Bound

Has anyone got any feedback on the type of heat the MS-8 generates (using outboard amplification)?

I'm thinking of a front passenger footwell install where it'd spend most of it's time covered by a floor mat - do I need to factor in some cooling?


----------



## vactor

BigRed said:


> I'm using a L4 and tweeter for center crossed over at 160hz. seems to work brilliantly to my ears. the midbass's are playing 80hz to 160hz. I have played many tracks with stand up bass and no issues so far
> 
> I would not replace one speaker until you try the MS-8 with what you have. I think most of you will be pleasantly surprised


my factory system ahs a 4" center, 10's, 3"2 and tweeters in the doors, 6.5"s in the rear doors and a single 10" ib sub in the rear deck ... i think this is a far from ideal setup based on what has been said about 3 way systems in the front and using LARGE mids (like my 10"S) ...


----------



## michaelsil1

Thaid and Bound said:


> Has anyone got any feedback on the type of heat the MS-8 generates (using outboard amplification)?
> 
> I'm thinking of a front passenger footwell install where it'd spend most of it's time covered by a floor mat - do I need to factor in some cooling?


I would think you would need to factor in some cooling in that location.


----------



## michaelsil1

Andy,

Thank you for replacing my MS-8! 

Now I can have it installed and call it a day. :rimshot:


It was also a pleasure meeting you.


----------



## 14642

michaelsil1 said:


> Andy,
> 
> Thank you for replacing my MS-8!
> 
> Now I can have it installed and call it a day. :rimshot:
> 
> 
> It was also a pleasure meeting you.


The pleasure was all mine. Hope you like it.

A


----------



## rockondon

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Nope. Use what you have. No need to replace all of your stuff.


Thank you sir.




jimbno1 said:


> Hey Big Red,
> Did you use the MS-8 in the F-350? If so what did you use for a center and are the left and right L8 midbasses wasted in a setup with a center?
> 
> The relative small size of the center channel speakers and lack of enclosure would seem to preclude true midbass reproduction. I know it has been said many times in this thread it is not necessary to have large midbasses. But center channels in a vehicle are even more limited in install options than kicks or doors. How is it possible to get a small center to play to say 80 Hz for an abitrary frequency? For instance small speakers have trouble doing that in home stereo applications with optimum boxes. How is it accomplished in a vehicle?
> 
> Should I just sell my 8" midbasses and just get matched 5.25's (if I can even mount that in the center of my dash)?



Same questions as me. But I'm also putting in rears. [Rear doors are now Boston coax as my sides]



BigRed said:


> I'm using a L4 and tweeter for center crossed over at 160hz. seems to work brilliantly to my ears. the midbass's are playing 80hz to 160hz. I have played many tracks with stand up bass and no issues so far
> 
> I would not replace one speaker until you try the MS-8 with what you have. I think most of you will be pleasantly surprised



BigRed are you also doing sides and,or rears.?
Also can you elaborate a little here. Did the M8 change the tonality in your truck. Or just overall spaciousness.?


----------



## BigRed

I have rears as well. The MS-8 opened up the depth tremendously, and locked in center information as well. the staging is pinpoint. recordings in large rooms with ambiance are so much fun to listen to now with what the unit does.


----------



## rockondon

BigRed said:


> I have rears as well. The MS-8 opened up the depth tremendously, and locked in center information as well. the staging is pinpoint. recordings in large rooms with ambiance are so much fun to listen to now with what the unit does.


Good to hear.
This thing is for me for sure. 

1] I cant tune worth a $h1t :blush:
2] I been trying to get rear fill. But without proper processing mine sounded better without.
3] As Andy likes to say ,this thing can do what takes me two days to do.
[I'm paraphrasing there] 
Actually I never was never totally happy with my tune.
4] I'm tired of changing up. Now all I want is to 
"enjoy the music" :rockon::rockon::rockon:


----------



## billymonter

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Nope. Use what you have. No need to replace all of your stuff.


That's what I'm hoping now 
Andy; How about this setup?
2004 bmw 3coupe Current setup Stock HU with Audiocontrol DQXS 

Sides; Morel elates, 6-1/2” midbass on stock door, 2” mid stock location by door handle, tweeter on sail. 50w from an ADS ph15,

Center; Audiocontrol ESP3, Focal K2 2way 4” mid+1” tweet mounted firing up from the dash. 100w Xtant mono 1.1i

Rears: some old 5-1/4” coaxial polks 50w ph15

Sub; jl audio 12ib4 subwoofer 100w ph15

My proposed setup is(was) jlaudio xd600/6 biamping 75w to sides. Bridged to sub 200w, center 100w from xtant, AND drumroll please 20w to rear from ms-8.

My hope was to mount the ms-8 and amps in the left side trunk CD changer.

Given that I selected the jl amp mainly because of its size, and haven’t bought yet. Is this a reasonable setup? or is it full of holes? 

TIA


----------



## quality_sound

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'd do it a little differently. I'd bridge two 100-watt channels to the center. Then, I'd use two 150-watt channels for the front right and left. The other two 150-watt channels for the midbass and 100 x 2 for the rear. The OEM subs make GREAT midbass drivers. Save your money and keep those speakers. I think ultimately, you may require more power for the sub, but there's no need to make that decision now, unless you don't already own the amps.


Andy,

Thanks for the help. I do already have the amps and I might need more power on the sub but I don't want to add much weight to the car so I might do something IB. Worst case I'd probably swap the 600/4 for a second 900/5.

Thanks again Andy!
Paul


----------



## quality_sound

bikinpunk said:


> Thanks for the answer.
> I'm gutting my IB wall and re-doing it this week and figured I'd better go ahead and pick up an extension cable and keep it in the glovebox in case I run the ms-8... more of a future proofing thing..
> At this point, I have so many friggin' cables in my car I can't keep them all straight: usb micro, mini, a/b, male/female, cat5... all sorts of crap. You'd think I'm driving a BMW.
> 
> 
> It's important to note that some adapters are mono and some are stereo, so anyone seeing this should remember to order a stereo 3.5mm extender and not a mono extender since the ms-8 uses binaural mics (recording in stereo).



What happened to only HU swaps, Erin???


----------



## ErinH

quality_sound said:


> What happened to only HU swaps, Erin???


Resistance is futile.  
The IB wall needed an overhaul. That sucker was actually causing structure born resonance. 
Going from 5 layers of various materials to a 1” layer of MDF and some bracing. 


The ms-8 looks like the bee’s knees. I was most worried about it’s ability to do a phantom center, but these guys are saying it does it very well.


----------



## BigRed

bikin, you'll love it.


----------



## rawdawg

Bikin? Don't you mean bikini? 

The Bigred Truck was awesome sounding before... I can't imagine how it sounds now.


----------



## quality_sound

bikinpunk said:


> Resistance is futile.
> The IB wall needed an overhaul. That sucker was actually causing structure born resonance.
> Going from 5 layers of various materials to a 1” layer of MDF and some bracing.
> 
> 
> The ms-8 looks like the bee’s knees. I was most worried about it’s ability to do a phantom center, but these guys are saying it does it very well.



I knwo what you mean. I've had 3 sets of amps for the M3 and none has even been in the car yet...


I'd use Birch before I added the weight of 1" thick MDF.


----------



## ErinH

quality_sound said:


> I'd use Birch before I added the weight of 1" thick MDF.


Too late. Plus, the kind of birch I need isn’t carried locally, and I already had 2 full sheets of ¾” MDF and scraps of ¼”, so I used what I had.

Hey, a 1” layer of MDF beats a 4.25” layer of various woods. 
May the old POS wall RIP.


----------



## MattyKHZ

Just preparing for my MS-8 install and was wondering if anyone could advise what rear speakers would be best for rear fill in my mini?

I am using MB Quart 3 way active up front, can use existing 6.5" Kef KAR160B in the rear OEM 6x9 area or could get replacement 6x9 speakers ofr 6.5" coaxials to fit there.

Any ideas?


----------



## michaelkingdom

Hi everyone,

I've got the MS-8 running and I am very happy with the sound. It is excellent!! 

The only issue I am having is that the back speakers sound strange. With Logic 7 on, if I use the fader to play only the back speakers, the sound continuously gets louder and quieter, back and forth like a wave. It sounds like the speakers are being cupped and released. This can best be heard when I isolate the back speakers but when the system is balanced, it is not detectable.

When I turn the Logic 7 processing off, the back speakers work perfectly, with no volume stability issues. It only occurs with Logic 7 on.

I thought it might be the amp so I changed my amp and had the same exact issue through another amp.

Is the Logic 7 processing doing this on purpose?

Michael

Sarasota FL


----------



## 14642

michaelkingdom said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I've got the MS-8 running and I am very happy with the sound. It is excellent!!
> 
> The only issue I am having is that the back speakers sound strange. With Logic 7 on, if I use the fader to play only the back speakers, the sound continuously gets louder and quieter, back and forth like a wave. It sounds like the speakers are being cupped and released. This can best be heard when I isolate the back speakers but when the system is balanced, it is not detectable.
> 
> When I turn the Logic 7 processing off, the back speakers work perfectly, with no volume stability issues. It only occurs with Logic 7 on.
> 
> I thought it might be the amp so I changed my amp and had the same exact issue through another amp.
> 
> Is the Logic 7 processing doing this on purpose?
> 
> Michael
> 
> Sarasota FL


That's what Logic7 sounds like. There's nothing wrong with your system, but listening to surround speakers only isn't much fun. Think of it like this, you're only listening to the "echo" without hearing the sound that produces the echo.

That's not exactly what happens, but it's a good analogy. I think I posted somewhere the whole "how logic 7 works" diagram and explanation, but I can't go find it today.


----------



## 14642

MattyKHZ said:


> Just preparing for my MS-8 install and was wondering if anyone could advise what rear speakers would be best for rear fill in my mini?
> 
> I am using MB Quart 3 way active up front, can use existing 6.5" Kef KAR160B in the rear OEM 6x9 area or could get replacement 6x9 speakers ofr 6.5" coaxials to fit there.
> 
> Any ideas?


Matty,
Use what you have--there's no sense in buying new speakers for the back. In fact, even the factory speakers will be fine if they're still back there.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Matty,
> Use what you have--there's no sense in buying new speakers for the back. In fact, even the factory speakers will be fine if they're still back there.


And 6x9s being typically being more efficient could mean you don't need an external amp and could use the built in MS-8's amp on them?


----------



## thehatedguy

Knows someone who would want those KEFs if you got rid of them.



MattyKHZ said:


> Just preparing for my MS-8 install and was wondering if anyone could advise what rear speakers would be best for rear fill in my mini?
> 
> I am using MB Quart 3 way active up front, can use existing 6.5" Kef KAR160B in the rear OEM 6x9 area or could get replacement 6x9 speakers ofr 6.5" coaxials to fit there.
> 
> Any ideas?


----------



## Thaid and Bound

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Matty,
> Use what you have--there's no sense in buying new speakers for the back. In fact, even the factory speakers will be fine if they're still back there.


Are any of the channels in 5.1 or 7.1 bandwidth limited by the MS-8?

It might help us all with speaker selection if that's the case..

While were on it, what sort of comparative dB levels should we be aiming for with the rear and rear sourround speakers in 5.1 and 7.1? 

That'll help us decide what kind of effciency/amplification we should be buying - no point giving your rear speakers the same juice as the front stage if the MS-8 is just going to attenuate them 6dB


----------



## james2266

Thaid and Bound said:


> Are any of the channels in 5.1 or 7.1 bandwidth limited by the MS-8?
> 
> It might help us all with speaker selection if that's the case..
> 
> While were on it, what sort of comparative dB levels should we be aiming for with the rear and rear sourround speakers in 5.1 and 7.1?
> 
> That'll help us decide what kind of effciency/amplification we should be buying - no point giving your rear speakers the same juice as the front stage if the MS-8 is just going to attenuate them 6dB


I am curious of the answer to this as well. My plan is to upgrade my front comps and then move the current ones to the back likely. Don't know if I can get a center in my dash without some serious carving (not going to happen on a brand new vehicle under lease). My original thought was to just use the MS-8 power for the rears but i have heard others complain of a serious loss of output with this kind of setup. Is this the case and I should round up another amp or will the MS-8 power not cause this issue. I have 160 w rms going to midbass and 50 w rms going to tweets from an LRx 5.1k.


----------



## AdamS

james2266 said:


> I am curious of the answer to this as well. My plan is to upgrade my front comps and then move the current ones to the back likely. Don't know if I can get a center in my dash without some serious carving (not going to happen on a brand new vehicle under lease). My original thought was to just use the MS-8 power for the rears but i have heard others complain of a serious loss of output with this kind of setup. Is this the case and I should round up another amp or will the MS-8 power not cause this issue. I have 160 w rms going to midbass and 50 w rms going to tweets from an LRx 5.1k.


This is what I would try. During the pink noise sequence where you verify the channels, turn down the L/R amp until its close to the MS8 amp level.

Run setup, listen, make sure it sounds good, just not loud enough.

Increase the master volume until the L/R distort and then back it off. This is where you might think you're stuck, but you're not.

Next, fade to the back almost all the way (say 9 dB, we don't want to turn the fronts off).

Increase the master volume by the same amount. This will bring the fronts back to where they were almost clipping, but bring the surrounds/rears up.

Lastly, turn up your front amp up by 9 dB to compensate for the fading effect.

You have just regained 9 dB.

You might be able to increase your amp by even more than 9 dB, but you'd have to experiment.


----------



## 14642

OK... the rears in L7 play loudly or not so loudly depending on what information in the track gets steered to the rear. On some tracks, there won't be much output on others, there may be a lot. Ideally, the rears would be able to play as loudly as the fronts for those times when the recording dictates that they should, but this isn't super critical. 

When MS-8 does the calibration, it looks for the rears to be about as loud as the fronts--it level matches them. If you amplify the front and not the back, MS-8 will reduce the level of the fronts. That means that if you've paid for 1000 watts for each of the front speakers and don't want to buy an amp for the rears, you won't experience Logic7 as it's supposed to be experienced. If this is an acceptable compromise because you don't want to buy an amp and you want the front speakers to be loud, then do this:

Turn the gain down on all of the channels that are amplified by outboard amps. Run calibration. Turn the gain on all the outboard amps up by the same amount until you're happy with the overall level. Listen to music. Adjust the fader towards the rear until you get a level of ambience that you're OK with. Listen to lots of different recordings. If you have to move the fader most of the way to the back in order to be happy, thereby attenuating the front, then you'll need to buy an amplifier for the rears to get the level you require from the front and still maintain the front/rear balance that you like. 

That's the best way to manage the compromise and to figure out how much power you need for the rears. Think of the output of the rear speakers as a condiment for your sandwich. The Front right and left are the two slices of bread and the center channel is the meat and cheese. If you're a vegetarian or a vegan, this analogy doesn't work for you, so you'll have to do a bit of interpreting. 

I'm off to China for a week or two. I'll keep up with this thread, but my responses will be a little slower than usual.


----------



## michaelsil1

Andy,

Have a safe trip.


----------



## Thaid and Bound

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ...Ideally, the rears would be able to play as loudly as the fronts for those times when the recording dictates that they should...


From this can we also assume the rears should be able to play full-range?


----------



## CraigE

From the manual;

Rear speakers 
3. The MS-8 will then display Rear Hi Pass. This screen enables you to choose the 
high-pass filter for the rear speakers. Use the remote’s Left and Right navigation 
buttons to display a frequency between 50Hz and 10kHz, and press the Select button 
to select it.We recommend using at least 100Hz.


----------



## rawdawg

For those that have a MS-8 tuned vehicle. Are you fine with the given MS-8 tune or have you adjusted the sound using the equalizer?


----------



## npdang

Andy, for those of us with metal cone drivers does the ms-8 have the capability of taking care of the cone break up? I know with the older processors with parametric eq, you could go in and notch the breakup individually on each channel.

P.S. Anyone know where I can purchase this unit? Seems like a few of you have already gotten it.


----------



## IBcivic

there was a pre-order posted a few pages back
edit> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1025567-post2479.html


----------



## michaelsil1

rawdawg said:


> For those that have a MS-8 tuned vehicle. Are you fine with the given MS-8 tune or have you adjusted the sound using the equalizer?


I made some adjustments. I'm sure that doesn't come as a big surprise.


----------



## BigRed

haven't touched a thing


----------



## MattyKHZ

thehatedguy said:


> Knows someone who would want those KEFs if you got rid of them.


I will post the Kef's up in teh classified section if I decide not to use them. I may see if they work better than my QM218.61 MB Quart 6.5" drivers in the door location when install is taking place.

I was also thinking about Morel Elate 3 way up front but it seems with the MS-8 upgrade of speakers is not as much of a requirement as it would have been without the processor.


----------



## MattyKHZ

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Matty,
> Use what you have--there's no sense in buying new speakers for the back. In fact, even the factory speakers will be fine if they're still back there.


Thanks. Can't wait to try all the permatations when the MS-8 arrives.


----------



## Buzzman

MattyKHZ said:


> . . . it seems with the MS-8 upgrade of speakers is not as much of a requirement as it would have been without the processor.


Even without the processor, a speaker upgrade is not a requirement to get the maximum performance out of your system. Before the advent of digital processing, dedicated, astute people were obtaining outstanding sound quality in their cars. And, even in this time of readily available digital processing, some still choose to do it the "old school" way, and do so successfully. In my view there is no substitute for using the best speakers you can afford and that you can install in your car such that their performance is optimized. The MS-8 is not going to turn a "sow's ear into a silk purse." This processor simply allows you to maximize the performance of your system, and thus your enjoyment, with little to no tuning effort on your part. With the MS-8 in the signal path, speakers of superior design and quality will sound better than speakers of inferior design and quality when both are properly installed and utilized. By the same token, the MS-8 will not magically elevate an improperly or less than optimally installed system into the realm of one that is properly or optimally installed. And, based on my experience listening to some MS-8 based systems this past weekend, decisions you make with respect to speaker location may well serve to limit the effectiveness of the MS-8. I interpret Andy's comments in response to those asking whether they need to go out and change their equipment before they even install an MS-8 as simply stating the obvious: Install the MS-8 and listen to the results so you can appreciate what it does with the equipment you have been using and with which you are most familiar. After that, you can feel free to upgrade or change components to your heart's content.


----------



## t3sn4f2

npdang said:


> Andy, for those of us with metal cone drivers does the ms-8 have the capability of taking care of the cone break up? I know with the older processors with parametric eq, you could go in and notch the breakup individually on each channel.
> 
> P.S. Anyone know where I can purchase this unit? Seems like a few of you have already gotten it.


Apart from the preorder link posted above, I saw them at crotchfield (for the same price). Probably sold out by now though since they were low stock last time I checked.


----------



## 14642

Thaid and Bound said:


> From this can we also assume the rears should be able to play full-range?


Don't use the rears below 100Hz and above 10k isn't necessary.


----------



## JoeDirte

npdang said:


> Andy, for those of us with metal cone drivers does the ms-8 have the capability of taking care of the cone break up? I know with the older processors with parametric eq, you could go in and notch the breakup individually on each channel.
> 
> P.S. Anyone know where I can purchase this unit? Seems like a few of you have already gotten it.





t3sn4f2 said:


> Apart from the preorder link posted above, I saw them at crotchfield (for the same price). Probably sold out by now though since they were low stock last time I checked.


Crutchfield is out of stock, but you can get one at harmanaudio.com. You have to pay shipping and taxes there, though.


----------



## Thaid and Bound

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Don't use the rears below 100Hz and above 10k isn't necessary.


Fantastic, thanks! 

Now to go bother Scott again about those Legatia Pro's....


----------



## quality_sound

JoeDirte said:


> Crutchfield is out of stock, but you can get one at harmanaudio.com. You have to pay shipping and taxes there, though.


Did they stop the free shipping offer?


----------



## michaelsil1

More units should start showing up this week. I know of a retailer who is expecting his order to arrive today.


----------



## Ari

*How are you guys connecting your H/U to MS-8?*

I was curious if anyone here with aftermarket H/U going to use the High/Speaker level connections from it to the MS-8. And then after that using the MS-8's High/Speaker level to the amp.

That seems like the ideal route since I remember some members here saying it's a balanced connection with little chance of induced noise.


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: How are you guys connecting your H/U to MS-8?*



Ari said:


> I was curious if anyone here with aftermarket H/U going to use the High/Speaker level connections from it to the MS-8. And then after that using the MS-8's High/Speaker level to the amp.
> 
> That seems like the ideal route since I remember some members here saying it's a balanced connection with little chance of induced noise.


Why go that route on an aftermarket headunit? Just install both pieces _correctly_ so that there is no chance of noise and use the line level outputs.


----------



## JoeDirte

quality_sound said:


> Did they stop the free shipping offer?


My mistake. Shipping is free. Sales tax runs me another $50, though.


----------



## AdamS

Forwarding from the Harman/JBL Sales Team...

"we shipped another round of MS-8’s to authorized JBL retailers on Tuesday, June 1"

"they should be in-stock by the end of the week or beginning of next from Crutchfield.com, Amazon.com or a local authorized JBL retailer of their choice."


----------



## JoeDirte

AdamS said:


> Forwarding from the Harman/JBL Sales Team...
> 
> "we shipped another round of MS-8’s to authorized JBL retailers on Tuesday, June 1"
> 
> "they should be in-stock by the end of the week or beginning of next from Crutchfield.com, Amazon.com or a local authorized JBL retailer of their choice."


Sa-weet! Can't wait.


----------



## kaigoss69

This may be a stupid question....

I have the unit on order and I am considering running an active 3-way front stage with Dynaudio MD100 tweets in a BMW 335i. My problem is that I lost the mounting cups for the tweeters so I don't know which is (+) and which is (-). Question: Does the MS-8 in some way check the polarity of each tweeter, and correct it if run in active mode?


----------



## Thaid and Bound

kaigoss69 said:


> This may be a stupid question....
> 
> I have the unit on order and I am considering running an active 3-way front stage with Dynaudio MD100 tweets in a BMW 335i. My problem is that I lost the mounting cups for the tweeters so I don't know which is (+) and which is (-). Question: Does the MS-8 in some way check the polarity of each tweeter, and correct it if run in active mode?


Just 'tap' a 1.5V AAA battery on the tweeter terminals - when the diaphram moves forwards, [+] is connected to [+]


----------



## t3sn4f2

Thaid and Bound said:


> Just 'tap' a 1.5V AAA battery on the tweeter terminals - when the diaphram moves forwards, [+] is connected to [+]


On a tweeter?! Isn't the peak mechanical excursion on the forward stroke typically something like .5mm? Can that be seen? Can 1.5 volts even move it that far?


----------



## audionublet

I didn't see this asked anywhere yet ... but I'm thinking about picking up this piece and replacing my BitOne.1

Is a center channel *required *in order for the MS-8 to work properly? I currently am not running a center channel. What will I lose if I choose not to do a center channel speaker?

Also, if I do decide to do a center channel, anyone have any recommendations?


----------



## rawdawg

I'll take a stab.

A center channel is required for the MS-8 to do 7.1 processing. Without one, the MS-8 will not be able to center the stage for both fronts and or rear seating simultaneously(unless you have crazy minimal PL's?). But a center speaker is not required for the MS-8 to do some of it's magic. According to some reports, the MS-8 staging for a one seater(optimized) is "beautiful". I would guess that any center speaker should be the same type and size as the left and right speakers. Also, keeping it 5.25" or larger would probably be ideal although I think the JBL BMW had 4's(maybe?).

Do I get a kitty picture?


----------



## ErinH

no it's not.

it has been discussed here quite a few times already. the question has been asked explicitly at least once.


----------



## rcurley55

rawdawg said:


> I'll take a stab.
> 
> A center channel is required for the MS-8 to do 7.1 processing. Without one, the MS-8 will not be able to center the stage for both fronts and or rear seating simultaneously(unless you have crazy minimal PL's?). But a center speaker is not required for the MS-8 to do some of it's magic. According to some reports, the MS-8 staging for a one seater(optimized) is "beautiful". I would guess that any center speaker should be the same type and size as the left and right speakers. Also, keeping it 5.25" or larger would probably be ideal although I think the JBL BMW had 4's(maybe?).
> 
> Do I get a kitty picture?


That's the story as I understand it. The BMW has 4" and at least 1 tweeter, maybe two in the center. The MS-8 will optimize for one seat with no center.


----------



## AdamS

kaigoss69 said:


> This may be a stupid question....
> 
> I have the unit on order and I am considering running an active 3-way front stage with Dynaudio MD100 tweets in a BMW 335i. My problem is that I lost the mounting cups for the tweeters so I don't know which is (+) and which is (-). Question: Does the MS-8 in some way check the polarity of each tweeter, and correct it if run in active mode?


No, it doesn't check any polarities during acoustic EQ.


----------



## thehatedguy

Another dumb question...

Say that I have coaxes in the kicks and add a center up high in the dash...would that rainbow the stage?


----------



## audionublet

bikinpunk said:


> no it's not.
> 
> it has been discussed here quite a few times already. the question has been asked explicitly at least once.


Sorry, I read over the last 10-ish pages only :blush:


----------



## quality_sound

kaigoss69 said:


> This may be a stupid question....
> 
> I have the unit on order and I am considering running an active 3-way front stage with Dynaudio MD100 tweets in a BMW 335i. My problem is that I lost the mounting cups for the tweeters so I don't know which is (+) and which is (-). Question: Does the MS-8 in some way check the polarity of each tweeter, and correct it if run in active mode?


I could swear the back of the tweeter had a sticker on it with a red square next to the positive solder tab but it's been a few years since I ran Dyn.


----------



## quality_sound

t3sn4f2 said:


> On a tweeter?! Isn't the peak mechanical excursion on the forward stroke typically something like .5mm? Can that be seen? Can 1.5 volts even move it that far?


Yes, you can see it even on a tweeter.


----------



## kaigoss69

quality_sound said:


> Yes, you can see it even on a tweeter.


Ok I'll give it a try. If if works I need another amp.... selling your 600/4 ???


----------



## quality_sound

lol, the thought HAD crossed my mind but I'd have to see if the XDs would fit before I really considered it though. And my 900/5 isn't even here yet...


----------



## SouthSyde

thehatedguy said:


> Another dumb question...
> 
> Say that I have coaxes in the kicks and add a center up high in the dash...would that rainbow the stage?


x2 with midbass and tweets in kicks


----------



## 14642

SouthSyde said:


> x2 with midbass and tweets in kicks


 
I'd move the tweeters to the sail panels and leave the mids in the kick panels.


----------



## doitor

Andy, I just bought an MS-8 from an authorized dealer in the US and should be here by Friday.
It will be the first one in Mexico.
Got a question about the rear channels.
Would I get better results with the rears on the rear doors or if I put them in the D pillars?
I have a Mazda CX-7 with HAT Legatia L831-3 up front, JL 13 tw5 on the hatch and can put either L3's or L4's on the back.
Thanks.

Jorge.


----------



## quality_sound

Do d-pillars!!!!!! Use the rear doors for the side channels.


----------



## doitor

quality_sound said:


> Do d-pillars!!!!!! Use the rear doors for the side channels.


Did you changed you name to Andy?
j/k buddy.
I plan to keep the front stage 3 way with passives between mid and tweeter.
Dont have enough channels to do sides, but have one channel left to try a center.

J.


----------



## Se7en

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'd move the tweeters to the sail panels and leave the mids in the kick panels.


Andy, is this based on general principal or specifically how the MS8 would respond to tweeters at different height locations in the car.

With my tweets in the kicks, stage height is _very_ good with the MS8 managing things. Would having a center-dash mounted tweet mess things up?

Thanks!


----------



## 14642

doitor said:


> Andy, I just bought an MS-8 from an authorized dealer in the US and should be here by Friday.
> It will be the first one in Mexico.
> Got a question about the rear channels.
> Would I get better results with the rears on the rear doors or if I put them in the D pillars?
> I have a Mazda CX-7 with HAT Legatia L831-3 up front, JL 13 tw5 on the hatch and can put either L3's or L4's on the back.
> Thanks.
> 
> Jorge.


Either would be OK. I prefer to have surrounds mounted at ear level, so I might be inclined to do the D pillars.


----------



## 14642

Se7en said:


> Andy, is this based on general principal or specifically how the MS8 would respond to tweeters at different height locations in the car.
> 
> With my tweets in the kicks, stage height is _very_ good with the MS8 managing things. Would having a center-dash mounted tweet mess things up?
> 
> Thanks!


With the steering, we don't have to be worried about generating a phantom center, so we can use the tweeters to raise the stage and add width--that's what A-Pillars do. If you have good stage height already, mounting speakers in the top of the dash certainly won't screw things up.


----------



## doitor

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Either would be OK. I prefer to have surrounds mounted at ear level, so I might be inclined to do the D pillars.


Thanks.

J.


----------



## thehatedguy

Couple more dumb questions...

If you physically can't move the tweeters from the coaxes, it may be ok?

And for the people using/thinking about wideband drivers for the center, if you used say 2 3s for the center, would the lobbing between the two tweeter sources negatively affect things? If so, could you angle each one towards the side some? Say the one on the right side aimed more towards the right side, and visa versa?


----------



## Ari

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> With the steering, we don't have to be worried about generating a phantom center, so we can use the tweeters to raise the stage and add width--that's what A-Pillars do. If you have good stage height already, mounting speakers in the top of the dash certainly won't screw things up.


You noted tweeters in sail panel earlier. I'm in a quandry to put the tweeters in sails or a-pillars. I know tuners most of the time advocate a-pillars but I would think that's no longer a must with a center channel and the MS-8 doing the processing. Please correct me if I'm wrong with my assumption.


----------



## michaelsil1

Ari said:


> You noted tweeters in sail panel earlier. I'm in a quandry to put the tweeters in sails or a-pillars. I know tuners most of the time advocate a-pillars but I would think that's no longer a must with a center channel and the MS-8 doing the processing. Please correct me if I'm wrong with my assumption.


You might get more late reflections (Windshield) with tweeter's mounted in the Sails versus A Pillars.


----------



## Ari

*Re: How are you guys connecting your H/U to MS-8?*



t3sn4f2 said:


> Why go that route on an aftermarket headunit? Just install both pieces _correctly_ so that there is no chance of noise and use the line level outputs.


Well, I recalled another user giving these reasons:



kkant said:


> A couple reasons.
> 
> First of all both types of output are of the same quality, when they are driving a high impedance electronic input (like the MS8).
> 
> Second, speaker lines are balanced differential outputs, which means lower noise. To elaborate: my understanding of the electronics is that "balanced" means "equal impedance to ground on both pos and neg outputs". Regular RCA outputs tie the neg to ground and the pos to a transistor output that has a non-zero impedance to ground, whereas with speaker lines both outputs are symmetrical as far as the circuit topology. Why is that important: because on a balanced line, interference produces (almost) equal amounts of noise on both lines; the processor input takes the difference of the pos and neg lines to recreate the signal, so the noise cancels out. "Differential" refers to the signal transmitted along the lines: the neg line carries the inverse of the signal on the pos line. This is nice to have because the voltage is proportionally higher so you get an automatic 6db noise reduction.
> 
> Third, speaker lines are higher voltage period, so you get a correspondingly lower noise level from that too.


----------



## M&MBlue

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'd move the tweeters to the sail panels and leave the mids in the kick panels.


hmm... and I was thinking of moving the mids and tweeters up to the A-pillars from the kick panels... I will be moving the tweeters to the A-pillars... I can't put the tweeters in the sail panel or they will aim at the sides of the dash... would I be better off to just leave the mid down in the kick?

I have one of the pre-order units... I'll be installing next week... I have the whole week to rework what ever I choose


----------



## michaelsil1

M&MBlue said:


> hmm... and I was thinking of moving the mids and tweeters up to the A-pillars from the kick panels... I will be moving the tweeters to the A-pillars... I can't put the tweeters in the sail panel or they will aim at the sides of the dash... would I be better off to just leave the mid down in the kick?
> 
> I have one of the pre-order units... I'll be installing next week... I have the whole week to rework what ever I choose


If you can move the Mid Range and Tweeter to the A Pillars you might get better results.


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: How are you guys connecting your H/U to MS-8?*



Ari said:


> Well, I recalled another user giving these reasons:


That would be based though on the assumption that the head unit amp is clean enough. It _might_ easily be, but again the cleaner RCA outputs which don't clip, don't have any downside when install properly. 

The only times I've seen someone use speaker levels in that fashion is when they have no choice but to (ie on an OEM head unit with no preamp outs).


----------



## SouthSyde

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'd move the tweeters to the sail panels and leave the mids in the kick panels.


my esotars are a little too big for the a-pillars.... well, we will see how it goes, the ms8 should be in tomorrow... if it doesnt sound good, i guess ill redo the kicks and use maybe the rainbow cal28 in the apillars...


----------



## instalher

i will be curious to see how this tunes my car as opposed to my pioneer dexp99rs... which is damn acurate and sounds fabulous with the auto eq/ta..


----------



## Dangerranger

Another question andy....I plan to run a 3 way front stage soon, 8" midbass, 3" dome mid, 1" tweeter. I planned to run the mids in doors, 3" dome in kicks, and 1" tweeter in the dash/a-pillars. Which would be the more attractive option:

3 way front, no rears (as the MS-8 has 8 outputs which leaves room for 3 ways and just 1 channel and a sub) 

2 way front, rears, and sub

Keep the 3 way front, throw a passive crossover on the mids and tweets so they can run on one channel, and then run rears.

As I understand, this algorithm adjusts BOTH time and frequency response, so I guess my question is: if you're running with a passive crossover in any situation, say even a typical 6" mid in doors and tweeters in the dash. Say the 6" mid runs to 3khz and the tweeter takes over from there. Does the processor interpret the measurements and adjust the time alignment for say, the midbass driver up to 3khz, then interpret that the tweeter (3khz+ range) requires a different time alignment, and run a different t/a to different frequency ranges on the same output channel? I imagine this question can apply to different scenarios, say if you're running true 7.1 processing, with coaxials in the front, side, rear, and a center where the tweeters aren't exactly perfectly time aligned with the midbasses yet are on the same output channel.


----------



## ErinH

for anyone who cares... 
**copied and pasted from my build log here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1053022-post1282.html**

oh, and....

Since we're having a baby, my wife's been ordering a lot of stuff, which means the UPS man is here every other day bringing furniture or random baby things. He always gives me crap about him having to haul 100# worth of furniture around, jokingly, of course. 
Today he said "now, here's the baby you've been waiting on, ain't it!?". 


Bitone vs. MS-8 in size. Roughly the same width, but length is longer on the bitone by about 1.5" and height is bigger by about 1" (rough estimates). 
Also, I've shown the bitone's DRC vs. the MS-8's display. MS-8 display is pretty thin, but a bit taller. overall, it's pretty darn small (that's what she said). 

The remote for the ms-8 is itty bitty. Very thin. A tad larger than the pioneer remotes but possibly thinner. Wider than the alpine remote CD remote, but shorter. Smaller overall than the alpine DVD headunit remotes.

You can see in the latter pictures more of the accessories such as the speaker input/output harness, sticky pads for the screen mount, and even alcohol prep pads, lol. Oh, and an allen wrench! I got about 50 million allen wrenches now thanks to alpine, JL, and JBL. 


I've got to finish up my IB wall before I can play around with this thing, but it feels like it's a miniature brick sh*thouse. Of course, it does have an internal amplifier. 
I plan to write up a review on it sometime in the next few days/week unless someone else does. 

Enjoy!!!


















































































Output/Input harness:


----------



## BigRed

bikin, once you go 8, the bit1 will see its fate


----------



## ErinH

i tell you what... I really like that I now have a remote control for volume. I may actually keep the screen mounted in the car. I could see painting the silver black, though.


----------



## Thaid and Bound

instalher said:


> i will be curious to see how this tunes my car as opposed to my pioneer dexp99rs... which is damn acurate and sounds fabulous with the auto eq/ta..


Does that mean you're going to install an MS-8 and give us all a comparative review?


----------



## james2266

Thaid and Bound said:


> Does that mean you're going to install an MS-8 and give us all a comparative review?


I know I would be most interest in such a comparison. I am strongly considering doing that swap in the not too distant future (once I gain some cash flow again).


----------



## rain27

Is there any way to reset the MS-8 to original factory settings without going through the display menu system??

Pressing the reset button on the unit itself does not reset all settings.

I was wondering if there was any other way????


----------



## AdamS

There's one other way, but it hasn't been made public yet.

If you re-download the firmware, it is almost identical to resetting all settings.

The Reset button on the unit is the same as Remote In disable followed by Remote In enable



rain27 said:


> Is there any way to reset the MS-8 to original factory settings without going through the display menu system??
> 
> Pressing the reset button on the unit itself does not reset all settings.
> 
> I was wondering if there was any other way????


----------



## ErinH

alright... earlier I said I wasn't going to install it, but I couldn't help myself. So, I screwed the subs in, and sat down for what I thought was going to be a painful process of setting up the ms-8...

scratch that.... it took 5 minutes, TOPS. I COULD NOT BELIEVE how easy it was.

How does it sound? 
2 words (pardon the french): Holy ****!


That bitone is not going back in this car. NO fuggin' way. I'm not just impressed, I'm friggin' floored! 

I'll report back in a few...
*goes back to listen and take notes on what I hear.*


----------



## james2266

bikinpunk said:


> alright... earlier I said I wasn't going to install it, but I couldn't help myself. So, I screwed the subs in, and sat down for what I thought was going to be a painful process of setting up the ms-8...
> 
> scratch that.... it took 5 minutes, TOPS. I COULD NOT BELIEVE how easy it was.
> 
> How does it sound?
> 2 words (pardon the french): Holy ****!
> 
> 
> That bitone is not going back in this car. NO fuggin' way. I'm not just impressed, I'm friggin' floored!
> 
> I'll report back in a few...
> *goes back to listen and take notes on what I hear.*


More info please? A full readup would be hugely appreciated. I am in the same boat as you without the MS-8 that is. I have a Bit One.1 and have the hiss still that is evidently part of the Bit One.1 or at least in my instance. I had a brand new one swapped out to try to fix it today only to hear the identical level of hiss as before. Sigh. I hate hiss. When the music stops and the engine is off you should hear NOTHING. Period. Especially when we paid what we did. I am probably being picky here as the hiss is extremely low but I know it's there and that is what matters here. Anyway, this is not a Bit One thread so I will stop there. I do want to know as much as possible about this thing as I am strongly considering getting one in time. Thanks for any assistance. You can PM me bikinpunk if you feel more comfortable doing that.


----------



## quality_sound

My BitOne.1 was dead silent. I'm thinking you have your gains turned up and that's what's causing the hiss.


----------



## ErinH

alright, here a few things I noticed tonight:

1) Setup is unbelievably easy. I did the input setup to find a good headunit volume to set things up at, which wound up being around 32 out of 40 on my pioneer z110bt and set the ms-8 output volume to 35, iirc.. Within 5 minutes I had already ran driver setup, and acoustic calibration for both front seats. The on screen directions make it kindergarten easy.
Additonally, volume is not a problem. I re-ran setup with the headunit volume a bit lower, and with the ms-8 volume set at about 25. Plenty of volume and no audible distortion, at least that I can hear.

2) When the setup tells you to look at x mirror, do it. I tried toying around with this and the further away I looked out (past the mirror), the more the center was skewed. If you look exactly at the mirror, as told, you get a DEAD center phantom. 

3) Andy was talking a mean game about this whole subwoofer integration thing. I honestly thought the man was full of it (no offense, Andy). He speaks the truth. The initial setting leaves some to be desired for me, so I up'd the bass output. It NEVER pulls to the rear. Not even at full friggin tilt. Sub/midbass crossover is at 80hz, 24dB/oct. I'll try 60hz later for fun. But I like 80hz for the safety of my drivers...

4) Speaking of which, everything sounds great. Rap, rock, jazz, whatever. So far everything sounds very nice. I've only bumped the 'bass' up about 3 notches. Still solid impact. 

5) System Noise: None. Although, I had very little with the bitone. I did have some noise floor. I can't hear anything of the sort now with the ms-8. Maybe it's magic? Who knows. I do know that I can get to the same volume (actually, a bit higher now) as I could with the bitone when it's outputs were max'd so that tells me that _something_ in this stream has a higher output and even with that, I have no system noise (crossing fingers for when I turn the alt on... in the garage, can't check tonight).

6) Alright, my music collection varies and I use a lot of stuff to demo systems (not very traditional stuff either, but so be it). Here are my thoughts on the ms-8 5 minute auto-tune vs. my own bitone manual tune which took a few months to get to where I was really happy:

Rage Against the Machine "Take the Power Back":
Kick drum echo! woohoo, baby! It's there! Do you know how LONG it took me to get ambience of that kick with my own tune? Seriously! wtf!
Bass guitar/kick: Very easily identifiable as separate. This is tough to do. A lot in the midbass/subbass has to be right to get this separation because both are centered right up front. If the system you're listening to isn't set up well, you'll get the two instruments confused (ie: why does that bass guitar have so much punch?! )

Dire Straits "Walk of Life": 
The beginning of this track has cymbal taps that have different tonality. I've worked really hard (and listened to some higher end gear in a local recording engineer's house) to make sure this is right. The ms-8 does it perfectly ... or as perfect as I can tell. The taps walk about 2-3" apart, as I believe they should, and have a distinct tonality. I've rarely been able to tell this and I listen hard for it in other systems. 

Norah Jones "Chasing Pirates":
At the beginning of this track there are (what I call) the sound of bubbles... yea, horrible description, I know.
Anyway, typically this is very faint and, in my car, they sound to be coming to the left of the stage. With the ms-8 they're closer to me but yet _still_ further outside of the car. I was left  as to how it got this, but hey... I'll take it.

Eric Clapton "Layla (Unplugged)":
Pretty well known song, I believe. The guitar at the beginning has a lot of picking going on. I could hear detail in the picks that I hadn't heard before such as: resonance of the strings themselves - hope this makes sense, because resonance in the strings is how we get the sound, but I'm talking about abruptly stopped strings - and they have more body to them. Never noticed that with my other tune.

P.O.D "The Messenjah":
This song has a lot of stuff going on it. Not a reference track, by any means, but one I really love.
Sonny's voice shines clear through and you can almost _feel_ the passion when he's screaming through the chorus. The music breaks down a lot in this song and everytime it does, the system does an excellent job of keeping up (transients). I've been listening to this song on HEAVY rotation the past week and hadn't noticed it before. Not saying the ms-8 is doing it, but it's something I've never noticed before.

Peter Gabriel "Sledgehammer":
About 22 seconds into the song, right as the flute (presumably) stops and right before the music really kicks in, there's a bit of silence. In this bit of silence, I've never heard anything. But, now I can hear the song's intro _right before_ it really starts. Sounds crazy, I know. I've listened to this song about a million times... or so... and I've NEVER heard this before. Ever. Scary! 

Natalie Merchant has never sounded so wonderful. The stand up bass in "Carnival" is the best I've ever heard it.

Last but not least... the thing that made me literally say 'WTF' to myself as I was listening.. 
Alison Krauss & Union Station "Man of Constant Sorrow (Live DVD Version)"
I know this performance well as it's a favorite song of mine, so I've heard it on many different systems. Having said that, I've always heard the singer as being centered and singing outward. Alright...
About 15 seconds into the song I thought I heard his voice shift as if it was facing the right side of the stage. He says "I bid farewell to ol' Kentucky" and I SWEAR I thought he was singing to my passenger. I couldn't believe it... I came inside to check the DVD and sure enough... he's facing the right side of the stage (his left). I about crapped a brick. I heard his voice shift around as he was moving his head. I've NEVER heard that before. I'm sold.​
8) Stage width is at least as good as I was able to get on my own. On a few tracks, I noticed it was clearly wider.

9) Stage depth is a little bit better, but not a whole lot. 

10) Stage layering (front to back instruments/singers) is better by far than it ever was. It is very evident when a musician is behind another or back and to the side. My previous tune didn't do this too well. There was a lot of blending. Now there is clear separation. 

11) Finally, to you guys who like to drive looking at the car next to you: you can turn your head a full 180* and the stage stays put. There's NOTHING I've ever heard that would do this. :thumbsup:

12) The remote is very nice. Ergonomic, it is (/yoda). Getting around the options, etc on the screen via the remote is very intuitive and extremely easy. However, I've noticed some minor lag, but nothing major at all... barely worth noting (seriously) but for full disclosure, I'm noting it. I associated it with RF (as I assume it's not IR) lag. I get that inside my house with my TV remote, lol. 
On the plus side, you can pretty much point it anywhere and it works. +1. I love remotes. 


I'm going to do some listening from the passenger's side tomorrow. I plan to also take some measurements on the preouts and system FR via RTA so I can see what the MS-8 has done to the signal that has worked so well. 

I'll try to get a review up sometime in the coming days. I guess now that this is installed and tuned, I don't have anything to do tomorrow. 
Which actually brings up a rant. I imagine, now that I no longer have to manually tune my car a few hours ever couple weeks, that I'll now have to start actually doing something else like doing laundry or cleaning dishes. Man, this sucks.  
Of course, my wife will probably be sending JBL a personal thank you letter. 

Edit: Added a few last minute things...


*Cliffs:*
This thing really is the bees knees.


----------



## kyheng

^I think you repeat them...... But still a good initial review.....


----------



## ErinH

kyheng said:


> ^I think you repeat them...... But still a good initial review.....


Yea, that's what happens when you edit multiple times and go in/out of Word to do it. I fixed it, though.


----------



## kyheng

....... guess is good if you open a new thread for your review. This thread is moving fast so the review might be gone in no time.


----------



## ErinH

Hate to do that until I get some more time with it and get to take some more pictures, and (possibly) get some FR measurements on the preouts. 

Maybe I can start a thread, and edit it later. But, I hate to rush it.


----------



## n_olympios

bikinpunk said:


> Peter Gabriel "Sledgehammer":
> About 22 seconds into the song, right as the flute (presumably) stops and right before the music really kicks in, there's a bit of silence. In this bit of silence, I've never heard anything. But, *now I can hear the song's intro right before it really starts*. Sounds crazy, I know. I've listened to this song about a million times... or so... and I've NEVER heard this before. Ever. Scary!


That's called a "ghost" effect IIRC, and it's to do with the mastering/recording. It's very common when listening to LP's or CD's with remastered vinyl recordings. Try listening to Amanda McBroom's "The Rose" by Sheffield Labs, it's pretty obvious there.

Edit:



bikinpunk said:


> 11) Finally, to you guys who like to drive looking at the car next to you: *you can turn your head a full 180** and the stage stays put.


If you can indeed do that, we'll need an exorcist - fast! :lol:


----------



## kaigoss69

bikinpunk, thanks for the review. Would you share your set-up and what car you have this installed?

BTW, I always thought your screen name "bikinipunk". I guess I just added the "i" subconsciously because I like bikinis. But now that you told us you were going to do dishes and laundry, perhaps you should really add the "i", no?


----------



## MattyKHZ

Check the member install area as the thread is there but watch out I think its 50 pages long !!!!


----------



## Gary Mac

*Re: How are you guys connecting your H/U to MS-8?*



t3sn4f2 said:


> That would be based though on the assumption that the head unit amp is clean enough. It _might_ easily be, but again the cleaner RCA outputs which don't clip, don't have any downside when install properly.
> 
> The only times I've seen someone use speaker levels in that fashion is when they have no choice but to (ie on an OEM head unit with no preamp outs).


What would you recommend out of the following options?

1. About 1v -balanced - line level out of oem HU with sodered RCA's

2. high level, but factory amp known to be not exactly clean.


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: How are you guys connecting your H/U to MS-8?*



Gary Mac said:


> What would you recommend out of the following options?
> 
> 1. About 1v -balanced - line level out of oem HU with sodered RCA's
> 
> 2. high level, but factory amp known to be not exactly clean.


1....


----------



## BigRed

^^ get a center and rears and REALLY let this thing shine


----------



## ErinH

kaigoss69 said:


> bikinpunk, thanks for the review. Would you share your set-up and what car you have this installed?
> 
> BTW, I always thought your screen name "bikinipunk". I guess I just added the "i" subconsciously because I like bikinis. But now that you told us you were going to do dishes and laundry, perhaps you should really add the "i", no?


as someone said, you can see my extensive install thread, full of wins and fails. I document it all in hopes someone can learn from me.

Anyway, here's my setup:
Headunit: Pioneer AVIC-Z110BT
Tweeters: Hertz ML 280 signature on dash
Midrange: Scan Speak 12m on dash
Midbass: Scan Speak 18w in kicks
Subs: Acoustic Elegance IB15
Tweeter/Midrange Amp: JL Audio HD600/4
Midbass Amp: JL Audio HD600/4 bridged
Sub Amp: JL Audio HD750/1


----------



## james2266

quality_sound said:


> My BitOne.1 was dead silent. I'm thinking you have your gains turned up and that's what's causing the hiss.


How is your Bit One.1 hooked up tho? I would bet you are using hi level inputs from a factory deck if you are getting absolutely no noise. This is the situation that I have heard a Bit One with absolutely no noise. The noise actually becomes present before the amps even turn on in my instance. I have had people working on this for some time. We have traced it back to being just the way the Bit One was designed. I, personally, have a feeling that the hi level inputs on the Bit one are balanced and the lo level are not. It was too late for my dealer to call Audison in Italy last night but I am sure the next time I go in that he will have my answer. If it wasn't such a pain in the ass I would actually try connecting this thing to my Z110BT by hi level and see if the noise goes away completely. Bikinpunk even states that he had a slight noise floor too and I think that is exactly what I have. This isn't a big noise floor at all but I know it is there. As soon as you turn on the engine you can barely notice it. I thank Bikinpunk for his great initial review. It makes me want an MS-8 even more now. It also would allow me to do a surround setup in time too if I chose. The Bit One does not give me that option.


----------



## quality_sound

Yes, mine was high level in. Of note, I have heard two others running RCA and optical inputs with no hiss as well.


----------



## basher8621

I am using RCA currently and have no hiss at all. However, I have my levels turned down as well. I have heard rumors that the bitone will make some noise when the levels are turned up.


----------



## ashman5

bikinpunk said:


> as someone said, you can see my extensive install thread, full of wins and fails. I document it all in hopes someone can learn from me.


If you want to do an "auto setup" shootout with the 880prs, just let me know. all of the connections in my setup are VERY accessible :laugh:


----------



## Technic

james2266 said:


> How is your Bit One.1 hooked up tho? I would bet you are using hi level inputs from a factory deck if you are getting absolutely no noise. This is the situation that I have heard a Bit One with absolutely no noise. The noise actually becomes present before the amps even turn on in my instance. I have had people working on this for some time. We have traced it back to being just the way the Bit One was designed. I, personally, *have a feeling that the hi level inputs on the Bit one are balanced and the lo level are not.* It was too late for my dealer to call Audison in Italy last night but I am sure the next time I go in that he will have my answer. If it wasn't such a pain in the ass I would actually try connecting this thing to my Z110BT by hi level and see if the noise goes away completely. Bikinpunk even states that he had a slight noise floor too and I think that is exactly what I have. This isn't a big noise floor at all but I know it is there. As soon as you turn on the engine you can barely notice it. I thank Bikinpunk for his great initial review. It makes me want an MS-8 even more now. It also would allow me to do a surround setup in time too if I chose. The Bit One does not give me that option.


Both the high and the low level inputs of the bit one.1 are balanced-compatible... actually, the low level input can also handle up to 7V of high level signal as I can recode on the fly the outputs of my OEM HU from low level balanced to high level 25W/7V peak while being connected to the RCA inputs of the bit one.1 without any noise/saturation issues.

No hiss in my setup with either signal while having the DRC Master volume at 0dB and the output levels between 3-7dB (depending on the channel in question).

I will be getting an MS-8 as well to test it against the bit one.1...


----------



## VP Electricity

*Re: How are you guys connecting your H/U to MS-8?*



Gary Mac said:


> What would you recommend out of the following options?
> 
> 1. About 1v -balanced - line level out of oem HU with sodered RCA's
> 
> 2. high level, but factory amp known to be not exactly clean.


Use the low level every time. Use twisted pair RCAs and make sure any metal barrels can't touch each other or metal anywhere. 

If anyone else says anything different, they're either really old and wrong, or just wrong


----------



## VP Electricity

Technic said:


> Both the high and the low level inputs of the bit one.1 are balanced-compatible...


Larry F has also stated that the RCA inputs are balanced. I called and asked him last year. 

If they weren't, Technic's car would sound like ass.


----------



## 14642

bikinpunk said:


> Last but not least... the thing that made me literally say 'WTF' to myself as I was listening..
> Alison Krauss & Union Station "Man of Constant Sorrow (Live DVD Version)"
> I know this performance well as it's a favorite song of mine, so I've heard it on many different systems. Having said that, I've always heard the singer as being centered and singing outward. Alright...
> About 15 seconds into the song I thought I heard his voice shift as if it was facing the right side of the stage. He says "I bid farewell to ol' Kentucky" and I SWEAR I thought he was singing to my passenger. I couldn't believe it... I came inside to check the DVD and sure enough... he's facing the right side of the stage (his left). I about crapped a brick. I heard his voice shift around as he was moving his head. I've NEVER heard that before. I'm sold.​Which actually brings up a rant. I imagine, now that I no longer have to manually tune my car a few hours ever couple weeks, that I'll now have to start actually doing something else like doing laundry or cleaning dishes. Man, this sucks.
> Of course, my wife will probably be sending JBL a personal thank you letter.
> 
> *Cliffs:*
> This thing really is the bees knees.


I love it when this happens.


----------



## ErinH

Andy, I just sent Adam a PM but thought I might ask openly here.
What type of cable is the display cable? I'd like to pick up an extra so that I can let friends demo the ms-8 in their cars without having to gut my car to get the display cable out (since it's a necessary cable to use for setup).

Looks like a smaller version of standard 3.5mm TRS, so I searched for something like that but haven't had any luck. 


Having said that, to anyone who wants to demo the MS-8's setup/sound in my car (or possibly your car) feel free to shoot me a PM and we can set up a time. I'm about 10 miles off I-65 in North Alabama so anyone heading to the beach this summer will pass right by me. 
Hearing is believing. You better bring a change of underwear (and underoos).


----------



## michaelsil1

bikinpunk said:


> Andy, I just sent Adam a PM but thought I might ask openly here.
> What type of cable is the display cable? I'd like to pick up an extra so that I can let friends demo the ms-8 in their cars without having to gut my car to get the display cable out (since it's a necessary cable to use for setup).
> 
> Looks like a smaller version of standard 3.5mm TRS, so I searched for something like that but haven't had any luck.
> 
> 
> Having said that, to anyone who wants to demo the MS-8's setup/sound in my car (or possibly your car) feel free to shoot me a PM and we can set up a time. I'm about 10 miles off I-65 in North Alabama so anyone heading to the beach this summer will pass right by me.
> Hearing is believing. You better bring a change of underwear (and underoos).


Come on by I'll have a listen.


----------



## Thaid and Bound

QQ: Is the MS-8 able to do 6.1 (i.e.mono rear effects channel)? If so, it'd give us all a use for the spare channel we'll have after adding a center


----------



## wdemetrius1

Man talk about choices. I started by looking at getting a h701, then I looked at the MINIdsp, to now this. I think that I will save a little bit more and get this one. Again I thank you for another great review.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Thaid and Bound said:


> QQ: Is the MS-8 able to do 6.1 (i.e.mono rear effects channel)? If so, it'd give us all a use for the spare channel we'll have after adding a center


Nope, rears are seperate channels. I've asked before to see if I could squeeze out an extra channel for a bi-amped center.


----------



## AdamS

6.1 isn't common anymore (DTS ES, I think), so this use case isn't specifically supported.

I'll add it to the listen of possible updates. 



Thaid and Bound said:


> QQ: Is the MS-8 able to do 6.1 (i.e.mono rear effects channel)? If so, it'd give us all a use for the spare channel we'll have after adding a center


----------



## michaelkingdom

Hi all,

I am running the following setup:

Toyota Factory Head Unit
MS-8
Infinity Kappa Four Amp
Infinity Perfect 6.1 components front
Infinity Kappa rear
Phoenix Gold 500.1 Amp (Sub)
Phoenix Gold R2.12


Okay, I am not as well versed in sound nomenclature as some here but I can say that when I toggle the processing on/off it is like going from HD color TV to an old black and white TV. The sound converges right in the phantom center. I have been pulling my car over to listen to the music! 

I have a few questions regarding my setup.

1. My front component speakers have a passive crossover. During setup, I set them up as "one way" on the MS-8 because they will only be receiving one Left and one Right signal. When I select 2-way, I have to assign four outputs to the front which is not how the speakers hook up to the MS-8. Is this correct for my setup?

2. I know I would benefit by running my front component set as two way. I am wondering if the imaging would be dramatically improved or if I am generally in the sweet spot already. Thoughts...? 

Michael


----------



## AdamS

It carries I2C traffic, 3.3V and 5V. It is custom.

Maybe Andy can ask Customer Service to stock up on some extras.



bikinpunk said:


> Andy, I just sent Adam a PM but thought I might ask openly here.
> What type of cable is the display cable? I'd like to pick up an extra so that I can let friends demo the ms-8 in their cars without having to gut my car to get the display cable out (since it's a necessary cable to use for setup).
> 
> Looks like a smaller version of standard 3.5mm TRS, so I searched for something like that but haven't had any luck.
> 
> 
> Having said that, to anyone who wants to demo the MS-8's setup/sound in my car (or possibly your car) feel free to shoot me a PM and we can set up a time. I'm about 10 miles off I-65 in North Alabama so anyone heading to the beach this summer will pass right by me.
> Hearing is believing. You better bring a change of underwear (and underoos).


----------



## Thaid and Bound

AdamS said:


> 6.1 isn't common anymore (DTS ES, I think), so this use case isn't specifically supported.
> 
> I'll add it to the listen of possible updates.


Sounds great! 

Is it safe to assume that the rear effects channels aren't involved in 'steering' the front stage as well? (if that sounds stupid, it's just because my head's still spinning from OD'ing on Patrick Bateman and lycan posts  ) 

If so, there wouldn't appear to be too many downsides to a 6.1 implementation..


----------



## nar93da

You all are just killing me with all the reviews! It's making me want one even worse.

I'm curious to hear from someone thats installed one with a stock setup. I'm really throwing around the idea of putting one in my G with the stock Bose speakers.


----------



## t3sn4f2

nar93da said:


> You all are just killing me with all the reviews! It's making me want one even worse.
> 
> I'm curious to hear from someone thats installed one with a stock setup. I'm really throwing around the idea of putting one in my G with the stock Bose speakers.


That would be a fun experiment. Do a complete sound treatment to the car and the doors. Then run everything off the MS-8 and compare. Best part is that nothing you do will go to waste since it will be used when a complete upgrade is done later.


----------



## kyheng

^ I trust Erin's ears and his reviews......


----------



## BigRed

^^ yeah don't trust mine, they're terrible


----------



## kyheng

^You? Well, trust 50/50..... Erin I give him 75/25....... Because when a review is done, still some own subjective feelings are included....


----------



## lycan

bikinpunk said:


> Peter Gabriel "Sledgehammer":
> About 22 seconds into the song, right as the flute (presumably) stops and right before the music really kicks in, there's a bit of silence. In this bit of silence, I've never heard anything. But, now I can hear the song's intro _right before_ it really starts. Sounds crazy, I know. I've listened to this song about a million times... or so... and I've NEVER heard this before. Ever. Scary!


me wonders if it's "pre-echo" 

Yes, it's a _real_ artifact of certain types of filtering. But it's a _very_ misunderstood term in digital audio  For right now, let's just say that it's _not_ an artifact of a linear phase response, nor a steep transition band  In other words, it's _not_ the Gibbs ringing that's often associated with FIR filters.


----------



## ErinH

lycan said:


> me wonders if it's "pre-echo"
> 
> Yes, it's a _real_ artifact of certain types of filtering. But it's a _very_ misunderstood term in digital audio  For right now, let's just say that it's _not_ an artifact of a linear phase response, nor a steep transition band  In other words, it's _not_ the Gibbs ringing that's often associated with FIR filters.


and to be clear, I wasn't trying to say that this is bad.
Quite the opposite. It was definately a part of the song. However, it was something I had never noticed/heard before. 
The MS-8's auto-tune allowed for greater stage separation and detail than I've heard before. That was one specific example.


----------



## Buzzman

Technic said:


> . . . I will be getting an MS-8 as well to test it against the bit one.1...


In order to "test" the MS-8 against the BitOne.1, and do so fairly, you will have to at least replicate the EQ executed by the MS-8's auto tune. There will be a rash of efforts comparing the MS-8 to the BitOne.1 (and a lot of interest in such comparisons), but they will be of little merit if they are not apples to apples comparisons. I asked Andy in an earlier post whether the results of the MS-8's auto EQ can be determined by the user, and his response indicates that it can be done, though it will require a good deal of work. If you read Erin's (Bikinpunk's) review, I think he makes it clear that more than anything else he is attributing the results of his listening experience to the MS-8's tuning capabilities, which he has concluded are superior to his. I have heard 2 MS-8 based set-ups. One I would characterize as a work in progress because the MS-8's capabilities were limited, in my view, by speaker placement choices that adversely affected the auto tune process. I was very impressed with what I heard in Big Red's truck, and he too has given kudos to the MS-8's tuning capabilities. I love my BitOne.1, and don't have any plans to dump it. I am one of those (soon to be turned into dinosaurs by the MS-8) who enjoys the hands on experience (and education) of hearing what changes in filters, crossover frequencies, slopes, phase, etc. have on what I hear when music is played back. But, the vast majority of music lovers just don't have the patience, time, or capability to optimally tune their systems, and based on what I have heard the MS-8 offers the easiest path to maximum enjoyment of our music and systems.


----------



## rain27

Buzzman said:


> In order to "test" the MS-8 against the BitOne.1, and do so fairly, you will have to at least replicate the EQ executed by the MS-8's auto tune. There will be a rash of efforts comparing the MS-8 to the BitOne.1 (and a lot of interest in such comparisons), but they will be of little merit if they are not apples to apples comparisons. I asked Andy in an earlier post whether the results of the MS-8's auto EQ can be determined by the user, and his response indicates that it can be done, though it will require a good deal of work. If you read Erin's (Bikinpunk's) review, I think he makes it clear that more than anything else he is attributing the results of his listening experience to the MS-8's tuning capabilities, which he has concluded are superior to his. I have heard 2 MS-8 based set-ups. One I would characterize as a work in progress because the MS-8's capabilities were limited, in my view, by speaker placement choices that adversely affected the auto tune process. I was very impressed with what I heard in Big Red's truck, and he too has given kudos to the MS-8's tuning capabilities. I love my BitOne.1, and don't have any plans to dump it. I am one of those (soon to be turned into dinosaurs by the MS-8) who enjoys the hands on experience (and education) of hearing what changes in filters, crossover frequencies, slopes, phase, etc. have on what I hear when music is played back. But, the vast majority of music lovers just don't have the patience, time, or capability to optimally tune their systems, and based on what I have heard the MS-8 offers the easiest path to maximum enjoyment of our music and systems.


Can you elaborate on how speaker placement positively or negatively affects the performance of the auto tune function? What locations would be optimal?


----------



## Buzzman

rain27 said:


> Can you elaborate on how speaker placement positively or negatively affects the performance of the auto tune function? What locations would be optimal?


The particular car I mentioned in my post has a 3-way system up front, with the tweeters mounted in the center of the dash, within about 12 inches of each other, firing on-axis toward the center of the vehicle. My guess is that in such a configuration the output from both tweeters are overlapping thus making it difficult for the auto tune system to clearly determine that there are 2 separate speakers, playing in 2 different channels. As a result, a solid center image could not be obtained in this vehicle.


----------



## ErinH

You touched on a couple things here that I meant to address...



Buzzman said:


> In order to "test" the MS-8 against the BitOne.1, and do so fairly, you will have to at least replicate the EQ executed by the MS-8's auto tune. ...If you read Erin's (Bikinpunk's) review, I think he makes it clear that more than anything else he is attributing the results of his listening experience to the MS-8's tuning capabilities, which he has concluded are superior to his.


Initially I was going to get the ms-8's curve to reflect my final, manually tuned, curve. Then I thought about it a bit and realized "whats the point". Right?
For one to TRULY give an apples comparison you'd have to mimic, to a 't', the DSP effects. When you're talking about phase, t/a, etc there's so many ways to get the same overall curve. A simple example is to take your setup, change the crossover slopes, and then EQ to get the same response. It will not sound the same: period. There's just about no way for me to do the exact same thing since I don't have access to the t/a or phase... and that's just the minimum things I'd need.
I mentioned that I might throw the ms-8's outputs on my RTA and measure the FR of the preouts, but I'd only do so just for my own curiosity to see what the EQ curves look like.
Although I don't have the knowledge most do of how DSP's work, I do have a basic understand of the relationship of phase to t/a, crossover slopes, and EQ bands. I know enough to know that I can't replicate my bitone settings. So, there's no point in bothering. Therefore, there's NO way I can say that the ms-8 is better than the bitone. I can only give subjective opinions on it's ability to auto tune a system vs. my own ability to tune.





Buzzman said:


> I have heard 2 MS-8 based set-ups. One I would characterize as a work in progress because the MS-8's capabilities were limited, in my view, by speaker placement choices that adversely affected the auto tune process.


This is where we'll just have to see how it plays out. I tell you one thing, I've re-tuned my system via the auto-tune 8 times now. I've been experimenting with head position, having a second person in the car with you, and a few other things to see just how much the tune changes, if at all.
Right away I can say this: the degrees you turn your head during the 'look toward x mirror' will effect the staging. 
The great thing about the ms-8 is that it allows you to try these kind of things on your own VERY quickly due to it's ability to auto-tune in less than 1 minute for a single seat position and it'll keep the user applied curve if you choose to do any after-EQ. So, you can compare 'oranges to apples' with apples only. Wait... does that make sense? 

What I'm getting to is this: I'm realizing that the odds of everyone's car sounding 'the same' is hardly realistic. User 'error' will dictate results just as much as vehicle acoustics. However, there's surely a line where all cars exhibit the same _type_ of response if they do the auto-tune and leave it alone. I'm willing to bet that all the cars would have the same type of sound (ie: laid back) although they'll achieve it differently and there'll be different details/nuances to each. This is only a guess. I hope to be able to use my ms-8 in a few cars just to test this out for myself, which leads me into...





Buzzman said:


> But, the vast majority of music lovers just don't have the patience, time, or capability to optimally tune their systems, and based on what I have heard the MS-8 offers the easiest path to maximum enjoyment of our music and systems.


Now, at the risk of having an ego (which, anyone who knows me knows that I do not), I have to say that I was very, very happy with my system with the bitone. I thought the tune was great. In this regard, I was a bit prideful, meaning that I wanted to do all the tuning work myself. Therefore, I did. My buddy Andrew helped me tune it last October for about 2 hours after I got the install set up the way I wanted to, finally. After that, I've only had people give feedback. No one else has manned the controls. Why? Because I wanted to do it myself so I'd know what to listen for and how to correct it the best I knew how. This has helped me immensely. In fact, this is my only real 'concern' about the ms-8 and future renditions being the new 'it' factor. I'm a bit worried (how condescending of me) that people will not really know what to listen for if they're not learning what exactly a certain change to X does. IE: You can hear phase 'click' into place when using t/a, but this is only for certain bands of response. When you don't do this yourself, you don't have the knowledge of what to listen for. Of course, it's great for those who don't care, but for folks like me who have gained a better ear because they tuned their own car manually, I feel that the ms-8 could serve as a disadvantage. It's a huge leap and likely not a big concern, but as I said... I have my reasons. *and this is NOT to say I have golden ears... it is to say that I've learned what to listen for because I had to*
I felt I was about 90-95% 'there' overall with my system. The only issue I had lingering was the midbass/subbass which I would have fixed because it was an install problem (thus my new IB wall this weekend). This should only go further to show just how good the ms-8 is. And with the EQ features, one should easily be able to tune their system to their liking. The way the ms-8 handles phase relationships is, IMO, going to be the wave of the future. It's not about EQ. It's about phase. I may be the only person who believes this, but given what I've learned the past year, I'd put my money on a processor that has the ability to adjust phase correctly. I honestly don't think a human can do it better in a car. Very bold statement, I know, and don't PM me with your hate mail, but what I mean is simply this: given a proper measurement/DSP system, a computer should be able to handle the ability to evaluate and correct phase issues. Besides, when we adjust EQ, we're adjusting phase anyway. 
It's hardly been touched on, but the way the ms-8 does it's thing - the binaural mics and spacial averaging - is the way we all need to be taking measurements in the car (and home). I'm just now getting on this train of thought; Geddes wrote a paper on it many years ago and a few of the vets here have been preaching it (or did when they were still here). This is, IMO, where the ms-8's enormous capabilities is rooted. 
What I _would_ like to see is actual FR, phase, THD, etc plots of the ms-8 outputs and compare that with the bitone. That would be some really cool and interesting things to see for my own technical knowledge... which leads me to...



Buzzman said:


> In order to "test" the MS-8 against the BitOne.1, and do so fairly, you will have to at least replicate the EQ executed by the MS-8's auto tune. There will be a rash of efforts comparing the MS-8 to the BitOne.1 (and a lot of interest in such comparisons), but they will be of little merit if they are not apples to apples comparisons. I asked Andy in an earlier post whether the results of the MS-8's auto EQ can be determined by the user, and his response indicates that it can be done, though it will require a good deal of work. If you read Erin's (Bikinpunk's) review, I think he makes it clear that more than anything else he is attributing the results of his listening experience to the MS-8's tuning capabilities, which he has concluded are superior to his. I have heard 2 MS-8 based set-ups. One I would characterize as a work in progress because the MS-8's capabilities were limited, in my view, by speaker placement choices that adversely affected the auto tune process. I was very impressed with what I heard in Big Red's truck, and he too has given kudos to the MS-8's tuning capabilities. I love my Bit One, and don't have any plans to dump it. I am one of those (soon to be turned into dinosaurs by the MS-8) who enjoys the hands on experience (and education) of hearing what changes in filters, crossover frequencies, slopes, phase, etc. have on what I hear when music is played back.


I'm right there with you, man. In fact, it's the major contributor to why I change gear so often. It's not that I'm disatisfied with my system, or expect to be able to do better with certain gear (not always the case). It's mainly just that I want to toy around with something new, play, and _learn_ (thus my quote). 
I don't do well sitting on the sidelines. I don't like taking people's 'word for it', though that's not to say I don't appreciate reviews and factor in those opinions on some purchases. 
I don't do this stuff to be an 'internet hero' as I've been called. I do this to learn and to contribute what I learn. I work with many people who can read a book or instruction manual and know exactly how something works by doing that alone; I don't do that. I've tried. I get distracted and start thinking about cookies and milk, or how I need to cut my toenails... whatever. I have to get hands on to learn something. I buy new gear to learn and sometimes put my own thoughts out there hoping others can get something useful from it.

However, in this case, my skepticism is what lead me to desire the ms-8. I didn't want to take someone's word for it (no offense, guys). I didn't think it could do what I did and no way could it be better. I was wrong. But don't think that I won't stop fiddling with things. I've already got plans for future listening.


As I said earlier, my door is open to anyone just about all the time. I'd be more than willing to let anyone demo my car or possibly arrange for you to demo the ms-8 in your own car. 


Thanks, Buzz, for reminding me of some of these topics. I saw a frog on my garage wall earlier and forgot everything I intended to remember. I took pictures of it, too.


----------



## rain27

I think there are two reasons to own an MS-8:

1. Because it can tune better than you can and/or
2. You want to incorporate a center and rears

I think the MS-8 takes a lot of the diy out of the car audio hobby for some people. So, I guess it comes down to whether you want to figure it out yourself, or just obtain the best possible sound with the least amount of effort by letting the MS-8 do its thing. And I'm not sure that it's even possible to incorporate a center and rears successfully with manual tuning. Some one can correct me if I'm wrong.

I, for one, have no problem allowing the MS-8 to do most of the work because becoming a master tuner is something that would be very difficult to achieve and I frankly don't have the resources to devote to it. I think very few are great tuners to begin with, and those people have tons of experience that got them there.


----------



## Dangerranger

rain27 said:


> I think there are two reasons to own an MS-8:
> 
> 1. Because it can tune better than you can and/or
> 2. You want to incorporate a center and rears
> 
> I think the MS-8 takes a lot of the diy out of the car audio hobby for some people. So, I guess it comes down to whether you want to figure it out yourself, or just obtain the best possible sound with the least amount of effort by letting the MS-8 do its thing. And I'm not sure that it's even possible to incorporate a center and rears successfully with manual tuning. Some one can correct me if I'm wrong.


You're right. I mean you *could* incorporate a center and rears, but the engineering time and the electronics to accomplish it like the MS-8 would negate the effort anyway 



rain27 said:


> I, for one, have no problem allowing the MS-8 to do most of the work because becoming a master tuner is something that would be very difficult to achieve and I frankly don't have the resources to devote to it. I think very few are great tuners to begin with, and those people have tons of experience that got them there.


I'd say even great tuners would be better off with an MS-8 just due to the nature of the algorithm it uses. It's a lot more powerful than typical t/a and 31 band EQs are.


----------



## Buzzman

bikinpunk said:


> . . . there's NO way I can say that the ms-8 is better than the bitone. I can only give subjective opinions on it's ability to auto tune a system vs. my own ability to tune.


Erin, I am glad you made this point clear. So many on this forum love head to head product "comparisons" and depend on the subjective conclusions of others to dictate their decision making. I think it's paramount that those considering the MS-8 understand that what might make it the right choice for them are the "practical" benefits it offers vis-a-vis other available processors, which lead to sonic rewards that the user might never realize with other processors because their effectiveness is largely dependent upon the human element. 




bikinpunk said:


> . . . I'm realizing that the odds of everyone's car sounding 'the same' is hardly realistic. User 'error' will dictate results just as much as vehicle acoustics. . . .


I agree 100%, based on my limited MS-8 listening experience thus far. I would also add speaker placement and installation integrity to that list. And, of course, since not everyone uses the same speakers, amplifiers, etc., the chances of everyone's car sounding the "same" are lessened that much more. 




bikinpunk said:


> . . . this is my only real 'concern' about the ms-8 and future renditions being the new 'it' factor. I'm a bit worried (how condescending of me) that people will not really know what to listen for if they're not learning what exactly a certain change to X does. IE: You can hear phase 'click' into place when using t/a, but this is only for certain bands of response. When you don't do this yourself, you don't have the knowledge of what to listen for. Of course, it's great for those who don't care, but for folks like me who have gained a better ear because they tuned their own car manually, I feel that the ms-8 could serve as a disadvantage. . . .


I agree that as music listeners we are all better off when we understand why we are hearing what we hear and understand what affects what we hear. The MS-8, as executed, eliminates that education. Perhaps that is one way of protecting Harman/JBL's IP. 




bikinpunk said:


> I'd be more than willing to . . .possibly arrange for you to demo the ms-8 in your own car.


:thumbsup: I definitely plan to give the MS-8 a personal audition at some point, and will follow up with you on your very generous offer.



bikinpunk said:


> Thanks, Buzz, for reminding me of some of these topics. I saw a frog on my garage wall earlier and forgot everything I intended to remember. I took pictures of it, too.


:laugh: You are welcome, and thanks for your enlightening post.


----------



## kyheng

.... MS-8 from the day from its release and after so many people get their hands on it, I've yet to see there's people saying "why my system got noise?"....... And do we see people condamn on MS-8? Again I can't. But for BitOne........ Well, even with BitOne.1 or .S, I still can see people complaint about them.... So in terms of simplicity of installations and built quality, MS-8 is better. 

What consumer wants when they spend money on a product? Well, after sale service is 1 thing, but what more important is, the quality and people usually don't want to have complaint. If want me to rate MS-8, I will give them a 80%.


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## t3sn4f2

Buzzman said:


> In order to "test" the MS-8 against the BitOne.1, and do so fairly, you will have to at least replicate the EQ executed by the MS-8's auto tune. There will be a rash of efforts comparing the MS-8 to the BitOne.1 (and a lot of interest in such comparisons), but they will be of little merit if they are not apples to apples comparisons. I asked Andy in an earlier post whether the results of the MS-8's auto EQ can be determined by the user, and his response indicates that it can be done, though it will require a good deal of work. If you read Erin's (Bikinpunk's) review, I think he makes it clear that more than anything else he is attributing the results of his listening experience to the MS-8's tuning capabilities, which he has concluded are superior to his. I have heard 2 MS-8 based set-ups. One I would characterize as a work in progress because the MS-8's capabilities were limited, in my view, by speaker placement choices that adversely affected the auto tune process. I was very impressed with what I heard in Big Red's truck, and he too has given kudos to the MS-8's tuning capabilities. I love my BitOne.1, and don't have any plans to dump it. I am one of those (soon to be turned into dinosaurs by the MS-8) who enjoys the hands on experience (and education) of hearing what changes in filters, crossover frequencies, slopes, phase, etc. have on what I hear when music is played back. But, the vast majority of music lovers just don't have the patience, time, or capability to optimally tune their systems, and based on what I have heard the MS-8 offers the easiest path to maximum enjoyment of our music and systems.


Based off this post by Andy.....even if you analyze what the MS-8 does, it doesn't mean that it can be duplicated on another processor for comparisons sake.


----------



## Technic

Buzzman said:


> In order to "test" the MS-8 against the BitOne.1, and do so fairly, you will have to at least replicate the EQ executed by the MS-8's auto tune. There will be a rash of efforts comparing the MS-8 to the BitOne.1 (and a lot of interest in such comparisons), but they will be of little merit if they are not apples to apples comparisons. I asked Andy in an earlier post whether the results of the MS-8's auto EQ can be determined by the user, and his response indicates that it can be done, though it will require a good deal of work. If you read Erin's (Bikinpunk's) review, I think he makes it clear that more than anything else he is attributing the results of his listening experience to the MS-8's tuning capabilities, which he has concluded are superior to his. I have heard 2 MS-8 based set-ups. One I would characterize as a work in progress because the MS-8's capabilities were limited, in my view, by speaker placement choices that adversely affected the auto tune process. I was very impressed with what I heard in Big Red's truck, and he too has given kudos to the MS-8's tuning capabilities. I love my BitOne.1, and don't have any plans to dump it. I am one of those (soon to be turned into dinosaurs by the MS-8) who enjoys the hands on experience (and education) of hearing what changes in filters, crossover frequencies, slopes, phase, etc. have on what I hear when music is played back. But, the vast majority of music lovers just don't have the patience, time, or capability to optimally tune their systems, and based on what I have heard the MS-8 offers the easiest path to maximum enjoyment of our music and systems.


Perhaps I need to be more specific with my comment... I'm not interested in the_ 32-bit by 32-bit _comparison between these processors, but mostly in the consumer level of how easy is to each one to sound great _to me_. 

I'm extremely happy with the bit one.1 as well, but the idea of creating this front stage thru Auto-EQ and then having a 31-band EQ to fine tune it pick my interest as I like to think that I know how to tune to my musical tastes. Actually, I suggested to Larry F from Audison that some staging effects would be a great addition to the bit one as early as February 2009 as I was very impressed with the sound quality of the first generation bit one.


----------



## MattyKHZ

I didn't want to post my question in this forum to cloud it but if anyone could give advice on my question I posted in the dumb question area I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

Matt


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## Buzzman

t3sn4f2 said:


> Based off this post by Andy.....even if you analyze what the MS-8 does, it doesn't mean that it can be duplicated on another processor for comparisons sake.


Agreed. The fact is that most people on this site yearn for comparisons that declare one product “better” than another. Your post buttresses my point that a true "comparison" of the MS-8 with processors that do not have an auto tune function (BitOne.1, Zapco, etc.) would be extremely difficult, if not futile, and anyone offering conclusions that X is "better" than "Y" or “sounds better” than “Y” in such a comparison would be doing us a disservice if the functional differences are not taken out of the equation.


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## michaelsil1

I don't think comparing the Bit One to the MS-8 is fair, with the Bit One you have *total control* and that control comes with a price. The price is if you can't tune it's going to sound like Ass.


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## BigRed

michaelsil1 said:


> I don't think comparing the Bit One to the MS-8 is fair, with the Bit One you have *total control* and that control comes with a price. The price is if you can't tune it's going to sound like Ass.


not true....you cannot control pop on/pop off noises, optical input issues, and engine whine with the bit 1  sorry, I could'nt resist


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## michaelsil1

BigRed said:


> not true....you cannot control pop on/pop off noises, optical input issues, and engine whine with the bit 1  sorry, I could'nt resist


I stand corrected! :bucktooth:


----------



## ErinH

LOL!

Alright, I made some videos of the ms-8 in action. I'm going to upload them onto youtube and I'll start a review thread sometime soon but there'll be a lot of copy/paste from my posts in this thread.


----------



## npdang

Buzzman said:


> Agreed. The fact is that most people on this site yearn for comparisons that declare one product “better” than another. Your post buttresses my point that a true "comparison" of the MS-8 with processors that do not have an auto tune function (BitOne.1, Zapco, etc.) would be extremely difficult, if not futile, and anyone offering conclusions that X is "better" than "Y" or “sounds better” than “Y” in such a comparison would be doing us a disservice if the functional differences are not taken out of the equation.


You should apply that same reasoning to your reviews of the Morel Ultimo and the Bit1 

The fact that the MS-8's auto-tuning capabilities can "wash out" the audible differences should also tell you something about the nature of those differences that you are hearing when proclaiming that one product is superior to another....


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## ErinH

alright, here's the short video. The other one I made is a full walkthrough of the entire setup process through calibration. That one is about 13 minutes, so it's taking a long time to upload.


----------



## michaelsil1

npdang said:


> You should apply that same reasoning to your reviews of the Morel Ultimo and the Bit1
> 
> The fact that the MS-8's auto-tuning capabilities can "wash out" the audible differences should also tell you something about the nature of those differences that you are hearing when proclaiming that one product is superior to another....


Ouch! :z:

:beerchug:


----------



## rugdnit

MattyKHZ said:


> *I didn't want to post my question in this forum to cloud it* but if anyone could give advice on my question I posted in the dumb question area I would appreciate it.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Matt


This thread has been to hell and back. Etiquette is nice and all, but does not go far here.


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## ErinH

review up. give the first video a bit of time as it's still processing on youtube. the original file size was ~1.4GB. 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-product-reviews/83066-jbls-ms-8-a.html


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## rugdnit

bikinpunk said:


> review up. give the first video a bit of time as it's still processing on youtube. the original file size was ~1.4GB.
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-product-reviews/83066-jbls-ms-8-a.html


AWESOME! Thanx man!


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## Buzzman

npdang said:


> You should apply that same reasoning to your reviews of the Morel Ultimo and the Bit1
> 
> The fact that the MS-8's auto-tuning capabilities can "wash out" the audible differences should also tell you something about the nature of those differences that you are hearing when proclaiming that one product is superior to another....


I guess I was wrong in giving you the benefit of the doubt when it came to having some modicum of class and the ability to engage in respectful debate while having differences of opinions with others. I won't dignify your empty commentary with a like response, and choose to stay on the high road here.


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## 14642

Is an apple better than an orange? It is for me because I can't eat oranges. 

The lesson I learned in developing MS-8 is that there are basically two kinds of audio nuts--those who love to listen and those who love to tinker. This site is for audio nuts, not regular Joes. In order to build a great product for you guys, I have to make it appeal to regular Joes too, because there aren't enough audio nuts.

When we started, I told the engineers that I required a back door to the filters because I knew I could do a better job. That was crap, but only partially. Can I do better? Yes, but I have to have a lot of time, a serious analyzer, 10 times the processing power and a bunch of tools that MS-8 doesn't require and that AREN'T AVAILABLE IN THE AFTERMARKET. So, is MS-8 better than me and those tools? As a product that can be sold and implemented by a normal person in a reasonable period of time and for a reasonable cost? Absolutely. 

The second thing I learned and am still learning and am hoping to help others learn is that much of the audio babble that so many in the industry spout isn't useful. Is .0000001% THD better than .1%? Yes. Does it matter? Not really--it's damn difficult to hear. Are uber-high-end DACs more accurate than run-of-the-mill DACs? Probably. Does it matter? Not really--it's damn difficult to hear. Are $10,000 speakers that are driven with a measly 50 watts more accurate than $100 speakers driven by the same amp in a car? Probably. What about after EQ-ing for room correction? Does the difference in the speakers matter? Not really--it's damn difficult to hear. 

Do I believe that "Good-Enough audio" is good enough? Hell no. But the average experience isn't even close to good enough. 

In my 25 years of working in this industry, I've listened to thousands of cars and I can count the ones that sounded great on two hands. Most of them have serious problems and some of the worst ones are IASCA winners. In fact, I'm in China doing a 4-day audio training for a bunch of dealers. Many of them have brought their cars, so we're having a tuning session each afternoon. 50% of these guys have plans to change all the equipment in their cars because they don't sound good. In every case so far, none of the equipment has been the cause of poor performance. In every case, it's the installation, the adjustments or the system design. All of these cars have cool fiberglass boxes, amps, components with tweeters mounted in reasonable locations, but they all sound like ASS except for one. THe one that sounded great was the simplest system of the bunch but the guy had actually set the crossover points correctly. 

Can I fly all over the world constantly teaching everyone that they have to turn the knob and listen? No. Can I build a product that allows installers to do only what they want to do and to still build cars that sound good? I can't, but with a team of others, we can...and we have. That pays the bills and makes it possible for us to incorporate at least some of the things that audio nuts require. 

I've explained a thousand times the differences between BitOne and MS-8. One is a toolbox and the other is a carpenter. Thankfully, there's a choice because if the audio industry only caters to audio nuts, there won't be much of an industry left and the only companies that will be able to afford to continue selling gear will be the ones that can't afford to innovate. Making outlandish claims about passion and high-quality parts isn't innovation. If those are the only companies left, you won't even have a toolbox. You'll have a bone chisel and a rock.

Sometimes you feel like a nut...sometimes you don't.

Here's the deal. In less than 2 weeks, we've sold 473 MS-8s and 25 have been to DIY people. I love you guys and you make this fun for me. The other 450 make this possible.


----------



## DS-21

michaelsil1 said:


> I don't think comparing the Bit One to the MS-8 is fair, with the Bit One you have *total control* and that control comes with a price. The price is if you can't tune it's going to sound like Ass.


The MS8 seems to me to give total control over the end product: you can draw whatever curve you like via the "1/3 octave EQ" and set your own xover frequencies, right? The main difference is that you need to know a whole lot less about the under-the-hood stuff to get the desired result with an MS8 than with a BitOne or something from AudioControl.


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## trigg007

*QUESTION * - *Can passive crossovers be used with MS8 or do any external crossovers have to be electronic???* Example...3 way (semi-active) front stage; actively crossover midbass, but use the passive crossovers for mid & tweet...*will this work???*





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The lesson I learned in developing MS-8 is that there are basically two kinds of audio nuts--*those who love to listen *and those who love to tinker.


Great analogy!! I personally don't have the time to be a "audio nut" in auto sound; in home audio, yes...





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> all sound like ASS except for one. *THe one that sounded great was the simplest system of the bunch but the guy had actually set the crossover points correctly. *


*Would love to hear more about ^^^that^^^ system...*


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## Thaid and Bound

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ..When we started, I told the engineers that I required a back door to the filters because I knew I could do a better job...


I don't suppose that's something we'll ever get access to? 



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> In every case, it's the installation, the adjustments or the system design. All of these cars have cool fiberglass boxes, amps, components with tweeters mounted in reasonable locations, but they all sound like ASS except for one.


Get prepared for LOTS more of that as your tour of Asia continues. There's some truly _superb_ fabrication work, but oh wow do they ever sound awful  Which is a good thing for JBL and the MS-8 I guess


----------



## 14642

trigg007 said:


> *QUESTION *- *Can passive crossovers be used with MS8 or do any external crossovers have to be electronic???* Example...3 way (semi-active) front stage; actively crossover midbass, but use the passive crossovers for mid & tweet...*will this work???*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Would love to hear more about ^^^that^^^ system...*


Yes, this will work fine.

The system was a single 12" sub and an amp of some kind--brand I've never heard of--for the sub. Components in the front and rear doors and an amp to drive them. It didn't image, but at least the frequency response was close. it had impact and the bass seemed to come from the front. That's a good start and as good as it could be with what was in the car.


----------



## 14642

Thaid and Bound said:


> I don't suppose that's something we'll ever get access to?
> 
> 
> 
> Get prepared for LOTS more of that as your tour of Asia continues. There's some truly _superb_ fabrication work, but oh wow do they ever sound awful  Which is a good thing for JBL and the MS-8 I guess


 
I don't sell toolboxes, I sell carpenters. There's no back door, but I think you'll find that on balance, MS-8 is a good choice. 

I've been to Asia many times. In fact, I've been almost everywhere except for Antarctica, Iceland, Greenland and Africa. The story is the same all ove the world. I could collect 50 average cars in Los Angeles and the experience would be similar.


----------



## trigg007

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The system was a single 12" sub and an amp of some kind--brand I've never heard of--for the sub. Components in the front and rear doors and an amp to drive them. It didn't image, but at least the frequency response was close. it had impact and the bass seemed to come from the front. That's a good start and as good as it could be with what was in the car.


Interesting...kinda what I'm debating; just using all the stock locations (stealthy) + a single 12 + MS8 & keeping fingers crossed:laugh:


----------



## 14642

Uncross your fingers. It'll sound great.


----------



## VP Electricity

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Here's the deal. In less than 2 weeks, we've sold 473 MS-8s and 25 have been to DIY people.


Well, technically, 29 have. Just some of us have other skillz 



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Can (Harman) build a product that allows installers to do only what they want to do and to still build cars that sound good?


Two things:

1) You have to get the channel to be able to make a presentation. You have a way to go on that score. Get back to this country, dammit  Seriously, with 400+ as a load-in, if they don't turn, you're sunk. This is your chance, man!

2) You're still optimistic about the channel's capabilities, but we have to be, I guess.


----------



## AdamS

A 'Favorites' correction: I've seen it mentioned a couple of times in the last few weeks that there are 4. Indeed, there are 5. Just use the down arrow to see the last one.


----------



## VP Electricity

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The lesson I learned in developing MS-8 is that there are basically two kinds of audio nuts--those who love to listen and those who love to tinker. This site is for audio nuts, not regular Joes. In order to build a great product for you guys, I have to make it appeal to regular Joes too, because there aren't enough audio nuts.


Forget audio nuts...the use case for this thing in the field will be with OEM HUs what, 80% of the time? 

I can't wait to use it with a 2010 BMW with base audio, EQd F and R speaker level outs, with a 150 HP on the Rs


----------



## AAAAAAA

That was going to be my next question, is this technology going to make it's way into oem's?

Thanks for that blurb Andy, it explains why so much of us are swaping gear so much... most of us have crappy sounding systems, no doubt.


----------



## trigg007

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Uncross your fingers. It'll sound great.


I'm sure it will and I’m sure I’m over thinking this whole set-up issue and the possibility that the MS8 could turn a miracle out of stock speaker locations, but I’d atleast like to make sure the "pre-processed" stereo imaging is acceptable rather than rely solely on processing capabilities.


----------



## npdang

Buzzman said:


> I guess I was wrong in giving you the benefit of the doubt when it came to having some modicum of class and the ability to engage in respectful debate while having differences of opinions with others. I won't dignify your empty commentary with a like response, and choose to stay on the high road here.


Lol reminds me of our past conversations. I'm getting somewhat nostalgic. Don't worry, as usual I don't feel any need to defend myself against your personal attacks. 

I just find it ironic how you start talking about "setup" and "tuning" when it comes to other products but discount it so readily when it comes to promoting the products you sell/own/like.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Is there an NPDANG MS-8 review around the corner?


----------



## jrsmiles

Are there any group buys or package deals in the works anywhere for these?


----------



## npdang

t3sn4f2 said:


> Is there an NPDANG MS-8 review around the corner?


Yes, maybe? I should have one soon. Will definitely take measurements.


----------



## Buzzman

npdang said:


> Lol reminds me of our past conversations. I'm getting somewhat nostalgic. Don't worry, as usual I don't feel any need to defend myself against your personal attacks.
> 
> I just find it ironic how you start talking about "setup" and "tuning" when it comes to other products but discount it so readily when it comes to promoting the products you sell/own/like.


Out of respect for Andy and everyone else here interested in substantive, relevant discussion about the MS-8, I have sent you a PM.


----------



## kkant

cajunner said:


> this is the scary thing, has anyone tried to make intolerable speakers sound good with the MS-8 yet? I would be somewhat amused if a bunch of so-so equipment cannot be distinguished from the top-flight stuff due to the amount of correction provided, and whether horns will somehow lose the distortion of higher order modes, much as the reflections from in-car surfaces are tamed, this would be something of a coup


It won't do anything about nonlinear distortion. This is where speaker selection comes into play.


----------



## michaelsil1

Question:

On the Sub, Bass, Mid-Range and Tweeter Tone controls is one click 1/2db or 1db?


----------



## AdamTaylor

for some reason i thought this had an auto eq on it... i was really looking forward to minimal tinkering with the eq


----------



## james2266

AdamTaylor said:


> for some reason i thought this had an auto eq on it... i was really looking forward to minimal tinkering with the eq


What are you talking about? It DOES have auto-eq. It is one of the biggest selling points of this processor. It even gives you a 31 band eq for all speakers to tweak even further if you so desire. This is because everyone's idea of great music is different. Some like flat, some like a little bass and less treble some like just more bass. The 31 band eq gives the ability to satisfy everyone after the auto-eq.


----------



## ErinH

it does have auto eq. 

The 31 band supplied to the end user is for you to shape the _final_ output to your own personal preference. You don't have to use it. JBL can't predict your final curve preference.


----------



## ibanzil

^^^^I can easily say, the ms8 makes a joke outa imprint. You can adjust just about anything you want (xover, eq, levels). Damn thing is pretty amazing. I can easily say that the curve from the ms8 is much better than the imprint and it actually does it quickly and without having to perform any trickery like many had to do with imprint.


----------



## AdamTaylor

bikinpunk said:


> it does have auto eq.
> 
> The 31 band supplied to the end user is for you to shape the _final_ output to your own personal preference. You don't have to use it. JBL can't predict your final curve preference.


its able to eq just by using the single 2 second noise it puts out at the beginning of the seat tuning in each speaker? or where in the tuning process does this occur, i figured it would need to run sweeps or something like that


----------



## ErinH

cajunner said:


> I guess I'm going to keep asking this... to anyone who has changed from Imprint to MS-8 on a two channel three-way front plus sub system, would you mind it terribly to say what is the difference in room correction, if you use the 31 band eq to approximate the Audyssey house curve? Just a summary subjective observation, please. No freaky math, no conjecture, just someone who upgraded and is astute enough to be able to set the 31 band to the Alpine curve, making a post with their opinion on whether one or the other makes you happier...


I actually touch on this in my review thread:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-product-reviews/83066-jbls-ms-8-a.html


----------



## ErinH

quick one...

can you bridge the internal amp? I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere or in the manual.


----------



## t3sn4f2

bikinpunk said:


> quick one...
> 
> can you bridge the internal amp? I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere or in the manual.


Nope, I've asked. 

Edit: Maybe it wasn't me, I forget.....:blush:

Post #1016 and #1017


----------



## ErinH

I _knew_ I saw it posted but couldn't find it with a search for 'bridged'. Just stuff about external amps. 

thanks, F-to-tha-K.


----------



## lycan

i've got a question ... hell for all i know it was already discussed back on page 73 

Let's say we want to do a 3-way front stage, all drivers under independent MS-8 control. And we've got two speakers on the rear shelf ... but, as rear shelf locations tend to do, these two drivers are not really very far apart (compared to door locations, or even kick locations). And we've got a sub.

Is it possible, and does it even make any sense, to run a *mono rear-channel*, where both rear shelf speakers are tied together? That way, we still maintain full MS-8 control (meaning, no separate active or passive crossovers) : 3-way front stage, mono sub channel, and mono rear channel? Any merits?


----------



## t3sn4f2

lycan said:


> i've got a question ... hell for all i know it was already discussed back on page 73
> 
> Let's say we want to do a 3-way front stage, all drivers under independent MS-8 control. And we've got two speakers on the rear shelf ... but, as rear shelf locations tend to do, these two drivers are not really very far apart (compared to door locations, or even kick locations). And we've got a sub.
> 
> Is it possible, and does it even make any sense, to run a *mono rear-channel*, where both rear shelf speakers are tied together? That way, we still maintain full MS-8 control (meaning, no separate active or passive crossovers) : 3-way front stage, mono sub channel, and mono rear channel? Any merits?


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1053730-post3030.html

Although, you example of a less ideal rear mounting location hasn't not been specifically asked before.


----------



## ErinH

has the type of class amp this is been addressed?

Just curious.


----------



## t3sn4f2

bikinpunk said:


> has the type of class amp this is been addressed?
> 
> Just curious.


Yup, the link to the chip pdf as well. 

your search must be messed up. I found the bridged question by thread searching the word "bridged"


----------



## t3sn4f2

Now I can't edit a post because I have a freaking add over the submit buttons 

Anyways. I dunno what word to search on for the chip amp pdf


----------



## VP Electricity

Andy,

I created a document with your comments on this thread (which I know incluide your comments from other threads as well). 

I am having trouble interpreting your comments as regards phase processing. I (and a few others) are wondering, if we go to a passive mid/tweeter front setup, can (and will) the MS-8 perform phase adjustments to a subset of the notes assigned to that channel? 

My understanding of the implementation of T/A in this product (as in all current products I know of) is that it's channel-by-channel. 

But adjusting phase to a band of notes narrower than the channel's assigned range seems to be exactly what this thing is capable of... but it also reads as if you may have written the algorithm so as not to assign mid/tweet phase adjustments a high priority (given that we get the top 8 adjustments per channel, based on that algorith, right?)



> I can do a better job than MS-8 but in order to do it I need lots of bands of parametric EQ (currently I have 176 biquads available for eq and crossover), time alignment, *phase shifting parametric all pass filters...*





> Let's make this easy and say a biquad is a filter that can be configured to be a high pass of just about any alignment; low pass of just about any alignment, parametric EQ of nearly any frequency, gain and Q; notch, high shelf; low shelf or *phase shift*. The MS-8 assigns the filter type and values (frequency, Q and gain) based on the measurements it makes and the algorithm (predefined process or set of instructions for making decisions written as code) that determines how the decision will be made. So, for the purposes of this discussion,* MS-8 has 8 opportunities per channel to implement something that does part of the job of fixing the channel's response*.





> With MS-8, there's little benefit in separate channels for tweeters. The ease of crossover adjustability in tuning is moot--since you're not tuning and time alignment is unnecessary up there.... Our ears aren't good at determining the location of sounds from 1k to 3k, and above 3k, level is the most important criterion. This arrangement provides accurate delay measurements and settings for the midbass and will fix the mids and tweeters using EQ.





> *It doesn't EQ phase separately from frequency magnitude*, but in my experience, that isn't necessary so long as you have a center channel and a matrix or some other center signal extraction method or time alignment.


----------



## rcurley55

Mine will be here on Tuesday - PUMPED to see what this thing can do to very simple system (factory locations up front and a few IB subs in the rear).


----------



## chadillac3

Mine will be here...oh wait, it's in the trunk. Hope to have it in this weekend.


----------



## Weightless

Has anyone set one of these up using a factory HU? Most of the reviews I have seen so far have been with aftermarket decks.


----------



## AWC

I'm very tempted on this. I've used center channels in hte past and still have a 5 inch morel supremo in the dash for a center that isn't hooked up to anything. I've used an auto-tune for the last center but in a system that wasn't designed for it but it was still awesome. I can't imagine how much better it would be if it were designed for the center like this one is.


----------



## npdang

Buzzman said:


> Out of respect for Andy and everyone else here interested in substantive, relevant discussion about the MS-8, I have sent you a PM.


Nice PM....

"Just get over the fact I don't hold you on some ****ing high priest pedestal and didn't think your ****ing sub walked on water. If you want to get into a dick swinging, I can **** you harder contest, trust me, you don't want to go down this road with me. 

Buzzman"

One of the reasons I rarely post here any longer...


----------



## 86mr2

Nguyen, 

We miss you man. I love how somehow my join date is actually earlier than yours LOL.

Buzzman,

you are seriously funny.


----------



## npdang

86mr2 said:


> Nguyen,
> 
> We miss you man. I love how somehow my join date is actually earlier than yours LOL.
> 
> Buzzman,
> 
> you are seriously funny.


Regretfully, this will probably be my last substantive post. I will see you all over at EMSQ. Thanks for reminding me


----------



## VP Electricity

npdang said:


> Nice PM....
> 
> "Just get over the fact I don't hold you on some ****ing high priest pedestal and didn't think your ****ing sub walked on water. If you want to get into a dick swinging, I can **** you harder contest, trust me, you don't want to go down this road with me.
> 
> Buzzman"
> 
> One of the reasons I rarely post here any longer...


One of many, I'm sure. 

Seen too many guys like this in 12V... all kiss-ass in public, and jerks when they think no one is looking. I call it the "Nice to the Clown" rule: If you pick me up from the airport so I can do a training in your territory, and you're oozing politeness to me, but at the Jack in the Box drive-thru, you're a jerk to the person on the speaker taking your order - well, you're a jerk.


----------



## rugdnit

VP Electricity said:


> One of many, I'm sure.
> 
> *Seen too many guys like this in 12V... all kiss-ass in public, and jerks when they think no one is looking. I call it the "Nice to the Clown" rule: If you pick me up from the airport so I can do a training in your territory, and you're oozing politeness to me, but at the Jack in the Box drive-thru, you're a jerk to the person on the speaker taking your order - well, you're a jerk*.


SO TRUE!


----------



## trigg007

VP Electricity said:


> One of many, I'm sure.
> 
> Seen too many guys like this in 12V... all kiss-ass in public, and jerks when they think no one is looking. I call it the "Nice to the Clown" rule: If you pick me up from the airport so I can do a training in your territory, and you're oozing politeness to me, but at the Jack in the Box drive-thru, you're a jerk to the person on the speaker taking your order - well, you're a jerk.



In the south we call that a 2 faced [email protected]$tard How bout ya'll kiss and make up & get back to the topic.....


----------



## ErinH

VP Electricity said:


> One of many, I'm sure.
> 
> Seen too many guys like this in 12V... *all kiss-ass in public, and jerks when they think no one is looking*. I call it the "Nice to the Clown" rule: If you pick me up from the airport so I can do a training in your territory, and you're oozing politeness to me, but at the Jack in the Box drive-thru, you're a jerk to the person on the speaker taking your order - well, you're a jerk.


I see some doing the opposite.


----------



## JoeDirte

Couple of questions:

I see that bikinpunk assumes the remote is RF, can anyone confirm that?

Also, Crutchfield has changed their status from expected date of 6/9/2010, to "Ship date uncertain". Andy/Adam can you shed some light on this? I thought shipments went out last week?

Thanks.


----------



## quality_sound

Weightless said:


> Has anyone set one of these up using a factory HU? Most of the reviews I have seen so far have been with aftermarket decks.


Mine will be fed from my iDrive.


----------



## quality_sound

bikinpunk said:


> I see some doing the opposite.


I think I do that. I know I can be a massive prick sometimes and I love to argue to argue but I try to also be a man of my word. I know, I'm weird.


----------



## JoeDirte

JoeDirte said:


> Also, Crutchfield has changed their status from expected date of 6/9/2010, to "Ship date uncertain". Andy/Adam can you shed some light on this? I thought shipments went out last week?


Nm. Saw it in stock at Amazon, cancelled with CF. It'll be here Thursday! 

Edit: And it looks like I got the very last one on Amazon.


----------



## Buzzman

npdang said:


> Nice PM....
> 
> "Just get over the fact I don't hold you on some ****ing high priest pedestal and didn't think your ****ing sub walked on water. If you want to get into a dick swinging, I can **** you harder contest, trust me, you don't want to go down this road with me.
> 
> Buzzman"
> 
> One of the reasons I rarely post here any longer...


It is quite unfortunate that you choose to take public what I said to you privately, so that no one else needed to be brought into an exchange I did not initiate, and don't know why you did. For those who care, this is the ENTIRE PM I sent to Mr. Nguygen, which he selectively edited to serve his purpose:

*"I am sending this PM because the other members of this forum shouldn't be subjected to this kind of sideshow. As the Founder of this site I can't believe that you would willingly sidetrack a thread by initiating an exchange based on, shall we say, less than friendly comments neither relevant nor necessary to the thread, followed by totally inaccurate statements meant only to cast me in a bad light. Why would you do so? I HAVE disagreed with you, but never disrespected you. If you consider my retort a "personal attack," clearly you don't know me. Just get over the fact I don't hold you on some ****ing high priest pedestal and didn't think your ****ing sub walked on water. If you want to get into a dick swinging, I can **** you harder contest, trust me, you don't want to go down this road with me.

Buzzman" *

Your true colors are now on display for everyone to see.


----------



## rugdnit

JoeDirte said:


> Couple of questions:
> 
> I see that bikinpunk assumes the remote is RF, can anyone confirm that?
> 
> *Also, Crutchfield has changed their status from expected date of 6/9/2010, to "Ship date uncertain". Andy/Adam can you shed some light on this? I thought shipments went out last week?*
> 
> Thanks.


Would like to know as well. Thanx!

As a side note.... can we just drop all the $hit guys? WTF? This place CAN be a great resource for info, but this place continues to lower itself. It would be nice if we could all be adults and not constantly look for things to throw $hit at. I thought monkeys resided over at CA???


----------



## michaelsil1

rugdnit said:


> Would like to know as well. Thanx!
> 
> As a side note.... can we just drop all the $hit guys? WTF? This place CAN be a great resource for info, but this place continues to lower itself. It would be nice if we could all be adults and not constantly look for things to throw $hit at. I thought monkeys resided over at CA???


----------



## quality_sound

Buzzman said:


> It is quite unfortunate that you choose to take public what I said to you privately, so that no one else needed to be brought into an exchange I did not initiate, and don't know why you did. For those who care, this is the ENTIRE PM I sent to Mr. Nguygen, which he selectively edited to serve his purpose:
> 
> *"I am sending this PM because the other members of this forum shouldn't be subjected to this kind of sideshow. As the Founder of this site I can't believe that you would willingly sidetrack a thread by initiating an exchange based on, shall we say, less than friendly comments neither relevant nor necessary to the thread, followed by totally inaccurate statements meant only to cast me in a bad light. Why would you do so? I HAVE disagreed with you, but never disrespected you. If you consider my retort a "personal attack," clearly you don't know me. Just get over the fact I don't hold you on some ****ing high priest pedestal and didn't think your ****ing sub walked on water. If you want to get into a dick swinging, I can **** you harder contest, trust me, you don't want to go down this road with me.
> 
> Buzzman" *
> 
> Your true colors are now on display for everyone to see.


Seriously, no one cares.


----------



## michaelsil1

quality_sound said:


> Seriously, no one cares.


X2!!


----------



## VP Electricity

Aw, such a nice intro, and then you buy it all back at the end.


----------



## Boostedrex

So, out of those guys who are currently running these... Were you pleased with the staging/imaging in your car after the quick auto-cal from the MS-8? Or did you feel it needed further tweaking? Just curious as the few guys I've talked to sounded like they LOVED what the auto tune did.

*And yes, I'm purposely trying to steer this back on course. Please take the hint everyone.


----------



## AdamS

They were up briefly on Crutchfield and I guess sold out again.

Go to harmanaudio.com or your local dealer if you can't find them elsewhere.



JoeDirte said:


> Couple of questions:
> 
> I see that bikinpunk assumes the remote is RF, can anyone confirm that?
> 
> Also, Crutchfield has changed their status from expected date of 6/9/2010, to "Ship date uncertain". Andy/Adam can you shed some light on this? I thought shipments went out last week?
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## ChrisB

I am actually intrigued with the MS-8. That would mean I could run just about any double DIN head and still have kick ass processing versus being stuck with Alpine HUs that only work with Imprint.


----------



## ErinH

Boostedrex said:


> So, out of those guys who are currently running these... Were you pleased with the staging/imaging in your car after the quick auto-cal from the MS-8? Or did you feel it needed further tweaking? Just curious as the few guys I've talked to sounded like they LOVED what the auto tune did.
> 
> *And yes, I'm purposely trying to steer this back on course. Please take the hint everyone.


did you even read my review? LOL! 

Here's the deal: the center (without a center channel in my car) is dead center. I can turn my head to the side and it stays put. I can move my body about 1.5ft forward... well, actually all the way up to the dash (and you know how far back I keep my seat as you've sat in it) and it stays centered. Only when I move about a foot to the right does the center start to move with me. 

I love this thing. Seriously.


----------



## michaelsil1

Boostedrex said:


> So, out of those guys who are currently running these... Were you pleased with the staging/imaging in your car after the quick auto-cal from the MS-8? Or did you feel it needed further tweaking? Just curious as the few guys I've talked to sounded like they LOVED what the auto tune did.
> 
> *And yes, I'm purposely trying to steer this back on course. Please take the hint everyone.


I'm happy I don't have to play with the T/A anymore; I'm still into tweaking the sound to suit my tastes.


----------



## Boostedrex

bikinpunk said:


> did you even read my review? LOL!
> 
> Here's the deal: the center (without a center channel in my car) is dead center. I can turn my head to the side and it stays put. I can move my body about 1.5ft forward... well, actually all the way up to the dash (and you know how far back I keep my seat as you've sat in it) and it stays centered. Only when I move about a foot to the right does the center start to move with me.
> 
> I love this thing. Seriously.


I did read your review. And have talked to a couple of other people about the MS-8 as well. But I wanted to try and get the biggest "market sampling" that I could. The lack of ability to tweak t/a manually initially really turned me off. But if it's that good then it doesn't seem that you need the ability. You know what I mean?




michaelsil1 said:


> I'm happy I don't have to play with the T/A anymore; I'm still into tweaking the sound to suit my tastes.


Glad to hear that Michael. Was disappointed not to see you in Visalia this past weekend. I was hoping to hear your car for the first time ever.  So you have zero complaints with the staging/imaging in your car after the MS-8 did it's thing?


----------



## ErinH

Boostedrex said:


> I did read your review. And have talked to a couple of other people about the MS-8 as well. But I wanted to try and get the biggest "market sampling" that I could. The lack of ability to tweak t/a manually initially really turned me off. But if it's that good then it doesn't seem that you need the ability. You know what I mean?


I understand. I was just joshin' with ya. 

I hear you completely. The great thing about it, imo, is that it takes away a lot of the guess work. You can test drivers a bit more easily now because all the other stuff like t/a, amplitude matching, etc is taken care of. From there, you can focus solely on driver characteristics. That's a huge plus. I think the people who are less than thrilled with the end result will be so due to driver selection and install. Only time (more users) will tell just how well this thing works. But there's only one 'less than thrilled' review I've seen and that was from Buzzman. 
My friend's getting one, hopefully soon, for his g37 coupe. The gear is going to be pretty basic; nothing super high end. Door mounted mids, tweeters in pillars, subs in trunk. We'll see how that goes.
Furthermore, I plan to test it in my wife's car with the mid and tweeter in the door (oem) locations. If the ms-8 does even close to what it did in my car, you can count on me repping this fully. As if I'm not already. *shrugs*

I was in the same boat as you: very skeptical. Andy called me on it. He was right. really did go into this thinking there's no way it would leave me satisfied with the staging. I was wrong. I've never been happier to be wrong. 
I'm not sure how well my results will translate to everyone else, but I feel that most others will be saying the same. I


----------



## Buzzman

bikinpunk said:


> . . . I think the people who are less than thrilled with the end result will be so due to driver selection and install. Only time (more users) will tell just how well this thing works. But there's only one 'less than thrilled' review I've seen and that was from Buzzman. . . .


The tweeter set-up in that particular vehicle which in my view impaired the MS-8's capabilities and thus caused the the problems I heard has been changed. From what I have been told, things are sounding MUCH better now. I will get a chance to give it a listen in the next day or so.


----------



## michaelsil1

Boostedrex said:


> Glad to hear that Michael. Was disappointed not to see you in Visalia this past weekend. I was hoping to hear your car for the first time ever.  So you have zero complaints with the staging/imaging in your car after the MS-8 did it's thing?


I wouldn't say zero complaints, but it did a better job than me.


----------



## Gearhead Greg

Hey Zach, you can hear MINE...probably in about 2 years, 8 months or however [email protected]#& long it will take for me to get off my a$$ & get this system "re-installed"! ;P


----------



## 14642

npdang said:


> Nice PM....
> 
> "Just get over the fact I don't hold you on some ****ing high priest pedestal and didn't think your ****ing sub walked on water. If you want to get into a dick swinging, I can **** you harder contest, trust me, you don't want to go down this road with me.
> 
> Buzzman"
> 
> One of the reasons I rarely post here any longer...


Is this kind of stuff really necessary?


----------



## ibanzil

decided to try out the ms8 on another setup to see how it would do on some 3way action with the power amp on the midbass and mids and tweeters each having a seperate channel powered from the ms8 . Had some odd results. 

1st run had the bass pumping and things were nice highs were a tad over liking but overall, still solid sound. Ran it again because I forgot to remove the 80hz xover set at the sub amp. After the initial run, I have done 3-4 additional runs trying to get the bass and staging back. 

With mid and tweeters being ran from ms8 power, and midbass and subs on a larger amps, ive been having some problems. Ran 2way active off external amps and got consistant results. Is there any tips to get the ms8 on track with the 3way setup?


----------



## jbowers

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Is this kind of stuff really necessary?


It's the internet, thus the e-penis must be waved about like a tiny little flag in place of valid points and logic.


----------



## 14642

If the staging sounds strange after running acoustic calibration, the sweeps are too loud. Turn down MS-8's volume control and run calibration again.


----------



## Gearhead Greg

I read earlier today in this thread that if you intend to use the MS8's internal amp for rear channel duties then your front stage amps' levels will be lowered to compensate. I just want a little rear fill for ambience, not noticeable at the front really. If I have to power the rear channels with that much power, can I still count on a solid front stage with L7 engaged? I was just thinking equal power for the rear could be a waste.


----------



## AdamTaylor

should i turn my sub gain down, adam told me it should be about talking level and when the sub calibrates its well above "talking level" it will knock stuff off of my hatch actually


----------



## The Real Old Guy

Andy,

Back at SBN '06 you let me listen to what I understood at the time was the "beta" version of the MS-8. The thing was amazing. Since I never judged your vehicle for either install or sound I have to take your word that the speakers that were installed (I assume they weren't OEM) was in the stock locations. 

I wonder if during the development of the MS-8 you installed it in Gary's Regal. I know it would have been an interesting "a/b" test. Did the MS-8 improve it or not, that would be an outcome that would interest me. Gary had a big hand in the development of my car. I also realize he didn't give out all the "secrets" of his version of kickpanels. We also did some tinkering with IGGY that went further than the info Gary gave us. It made a big difference over what the '93 car could do. It would be fun to install an MS-8 and see if it can kick my Greg Davis tune to the curb.

Congrat's sir, you seem to have a winner in your hands.


Markey Dietrich


----------



## AdamS

AdamTaylor said:


> should i turn my sub gain down, adam told me it should be about talking level and when the sub calibrates its well above "talking level" it will knock stuff off of my hatch actually


You can either turn your amps up and your master volume down (maybe -30 or -40), run calibration, and then turn it up.

You don't want to clip a microphone when measuring an impulse response.


----------



## AdamS

ibanzil said:


> decided to try out the ms8 on another setup to see how it would do on some 3way action with the power amp on the midbass and mids and tweeters each having a seperate channel powered from the ms8 . Had some odd results.
> 
> 1st run had the bass pumping and things were nice highs were a tad over liking but overall, still solid sound. Ran it again because I forgot to remove the 80hz xover set at the sub amp. After the initial run, I have done 3-4 additional runs trying to get the bass and staging back.
> 
> With mid and tweeters being ran from ms8 power, and midbass and subs on a larger amps, ive been having some problems. Ran 2way active off external amps and got consistant results. Is there any tips to get the ms8 on track with the 3way setup?


The EQ has gain and attenuation limits. In a 3-way, the algorithm treats all three drivers as a single speaker. If their levels are too far apart, which is possible in your case, then it may not be possible to completely compensate.
Try to keep all of the fronts in the same gain structure.


----------



## 14642

The Real Old Guy said:


> Andy,
> 
> Back at SBN '06 you let me listen to what I understood at the time was the "beta" version of the MS-8. The thing was amazing. Since I never judged your vehicle for either install or sound I have to take your word that the speakers that were installed (I assume they weren't OEM) was in the stock locations.
> 
> I wonder if during the development of the MS-8 you installed it in Gary's Regal. I know it would have been an interesting "a/b" test. Did the MS-8 improve it or not, that would be an outcome that would interest me. Gary had a big hand in the development of my car. I also realize he didn't give out all the "secrets" of his version of kickpanels. We also did some tinkering with IGGY that went further than the info Gary gave us. It made a big difference over what the '93 car could do. It would be fun to install an MS-8 and see if it can kick my Greg Davis tune to the curb.
> 
> Congrat's sir, you seem to have a winner in your hands.
> 
> 
> Markey Dietrich


Hey Markey,
Nice to see you here. Yes, Gary has one in his Regal and he likes it. You'll have to ask him about it though. As I recall, he said that the stage was much wider now. Ask him...


----------



## kaigoss69

So the internal amp channels are not well suited for use in active set-ups I take it.


----------



## AdamS

kaigoss69 said:


> So the internal amp channels are not well suited for use in active set-ups I take it.


The recommendation is to either run all of the Fronts (L/R/C) off of the internal amps or all off of external amps.

If you mix and match, you will possibly have EQ limitations and will definitely limit your potential output power.

That being said, you can easily run the sides and rears off of the internal amps and the fronts off of external amps.


----------



## quality_sound

The Real Old Guy said:


> Andy,
> 
> Back at SBN '06 you let me listen to what I understood at the time was the "beta" version of the MS-8. The thing was amazing. Since I never judged your vehicle for either install or sound I have to take your word that the speakers that were installed (I assume they weren't OEM) was in the stock locations.
> 
> I wonder if during the development of the MS-8 you installed it in Gary's Regal. I know it would have been an interesting "a/b" test. Did the MS-8 improve it or not, that would be an outcome that would interest me. Gary had a big hand in the development of my car. I also realize he didn't give out all the "secrets" of his version of kickpanels. We also did some tinkering with IGGY that went further than the info Gary gave us. It made a big difference over what the '93 car could do. It would be fun to install an MS-8 and see if it can kick my Greg Davis tune to the curb.
> 
> Congrat's sir, you seem to have a winner in your hands.
> 
> 
> Markey Dietrich


Holy crap! Markey's in here now? Weeerrrrrrrd.


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> So the internal amp channels are not well suited for use in active set-ups I take it.


The internl amps are fine for active or passive setups, but they're 20-watt channels at 4 ohms. Driving front midbass and midrange speakers with 100 watts each and using 20-watts on the tweeters just doesn't make a whole lot of sense, unless the tweeters you choose are 7 or 8 dB more efficient than the mids and really are 4 ohm tweeters. I have a car full of these same chip amps--24 channels, to be exact and it's 100% active.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The internl amps are fine for active or passive setups, but they're 20-watt channels at 4 ohms. Driving front midbass and midrange speakers with 100 watts each and using 20-watts on the tweeters just doesn't make a whole lot of sense, unless the tweeters you choose are 7 or 8 dB more efficient than the mids and really are 4 ohm tweeters. I have a car full of these same chip amps--24 channels, to be exact and it's 100% active.


Exactly, if you have 24 channels (and efficient OEM drivers), then 20 watts per channel MAY be enough (for some), but try to put that amount of power on an aftermarket midbass driver, and it'll make little more than farting noises.

For us DIY folks, hungry for SQ at elevated volume levels, and a bit of thump in the midbass region, using those internal amp channels is just not much of an option. Perhaps they come in handy for the sides or rears (for surround) but it seems you have to use tricks during calibration to get the volume levels to match, which probably ends up being some sort of a compromise in output volume to the external amps, which I do not want. 

Anyway, I understand the inclusion of the internal amp, but I will probably end up using 100% external amplification.

Thanks by the way, Andy and AdamS, for all your support!


----------



## doitor

I've found my first problem with the MS-8.
The battery on my remote control was dead.
New battery in and I'm ready to play.

J.


----------



## ErinH

LOL!

I dropped my remote yesterday and couldn’t find it between the cracks of the seat. I was pissed for about one minute. During that time I thought to myself “I should get a backup remote”.


----------



## trigg007

Received my unit yesterday:biggrinflip:

*Questions*: 

1. for end users/owners, is there a way to download a back-up copy of the set-up disk?
2.if running a two way, does the MS8 allow the user to flip the phase for best response or does the tuning do this for the user?


----------



## ErinH

1. Can you not rip it on to your computer?
2. You don't get to do anything with phase. For good reason, too. You only get EQ and tone controls.


----------



## trigg007

bikinpunk said:


> 1. Can you not rip it on to your computer?


We'll give it a shot, but thought JBL might have an solution/suggestion. Let us know if anybody attempts to burn a copy. It'd be wise to have a back-up, just in case...


----------



## doitor

I havent been able to put it in the car, but just bench tested it with a hu into my studio monitors.
Moved the chair around, calibrated it, listened.
Did that a bunch of times and the results where pretty sweet every time.
Cant wait to put in in the car.

J.


----------



## AdamS

trigg007 said:


> Received my unit yesterday:biggrinflip:
> 
> *Questions*:
> 
> 1. for end users/owners, is there a way to download a back-up copy of the set-up disk?
> 2.if running a two way, does the MS8 allow the user to flip the phase for best response or does the tuning do this for the user?


Andy will upload the setup disk somewhere, at least the tuning part.

Phase flipping is done automatically for any systems that contain any 2nd order crossovers.


----------



## DS-21

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Driving front midbass and midrange speakers with 100 watts each and using 20-watts on the tweeters just doesn't make a whole lot of sense, unless the tweeters you choose are 7 or 8 dB more efficient than the mids and really are 4 ohm tweeters.


Generally agreed, but if the tweeters are a little more efficient than the midwoofers AND they are mounted closer to the listener it would also make sense for someone to at least experiment running the tweets off of the MS-8's chipamp. 

They might need more power, true. But they also might be able to keep an extra box (separate amp channels for the tweets) out of the car.


----------



## rcurley55

The UPS man just showed up!

A few impressions - it's smaller than I thought it would be - it's really compact and should fit just about anywhere. Second - my unit has a number of small scratches on the front of it (similar to other photos I've seen online) and a few white marks on the side (that did rub off). Pretty poor QC IMHO - an $800 piece of new equipment should be flawless


----------



## t3sn4f2

DS-21 said:


> Generally agreed, but if the tweeters are a little more efficient than the midwoofers AND they are mounted closer to the listener it would also make sense for someone to at least experiment running the tweets off of the MS-8's chipamp.
> 
> They might need more power, true. But they also might be able to keep an extra box (separate amp channels for the tweets) out of the car.


Especially for those with 6.5-7" midrange/bass that _want_ a lower then 80Hz highpass.


----------



## quality_sound

You can set the midbass highpass wherever you want. I think Andy is saying there's no point. If you can set the crossover at 80Hz and limit the excursion of the midbass which will only help the system in terms of dynamics and overall output, why wouldn't you?


----------



## t3sn4f2

quality_sound said:


> You can set the midbass highpass wherever you want. I think Andy is saying there's no point. If you can set the crossover at 80Hz and limit the excursion of the midbass which will only help the system in terms of dynamics and overall output, why wouldn't you?


Dunno, that's why I said for those that "want" instead of "need"


----------



## Boostedrex

quality_sound said:


> You can set the midbass highpass wherever you want. I think Andy is saying there's no point. If you can set the crossover at 80Hz and limit the excursion of the midbass which will only help the system in terms of dynamics and overall output, why wouldn't you?


Wherever you want so long as that's 50Hz or higher. Or at least that's what I thought I understood from reading through the manual yesterday. Did I read it wrong?


----------



## Se7en

I've personally had my best results at 60hz @ 24.

I tried everything from 50-80 in 3-5db steps.

Boosted, you're correct. The floor is 50hz.


----------



## rugdnit

I just got a tracking number! NIIIICE!


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> Exactly, if you have 24 channels (and efficient OEM drivers), then 20 watts per channel MAY be enough (for some), but try to put that amount of power on an aftermarket midbass driver, and it'll make little more than farting noises.


Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say the driver will make farting noises. the speakers will play perfectly, but they won't play very loudly. My midbass drivers are dual 2-ohm coils, so each midbass gets about 60 watts because I use two chip channels per driver.


----------



## The Real Old Guy

quality,

I've been "around" for a few years. Had another screen name, forgot the password. 



Andy,

As far as me talking to Gary...... it would be best to say we have had issues over the years and we don't see eye to eye. Thanks for the suggestion but it would be a non-starter. Maybe someday we'll come to a common ground.....


Markey Dietrich


----------



## mattyjman

I'll flame myself :cwm23: These have all been answered before probably, but i don't have the time to read through the years of pages... if someoone would help that would be appreciated...

Now that that's over with... I am putting in horns, 3 way with mid and midbasses, and a few subs in the back of an FJ cruiser. the subs are going to be run off of two seperate amps...

first, how are horns affected with this set up? any problems with this?

second, if i wanted to add rear fill, how would i do that with only 8 outputs... i would probably use the chip power for the horns, and amps for the other speakers... 4 chan for surround and midrange, and 4 chan bridged for the midbasses.. how do i get 10 channels out of 8 outputs?

second, if i mounted HAT L3's horizontally, firing towards the ceiling, would this be a bad speaker placement for surrounds? does the location of the rears mean as much now that there is an auto tune?


----------



## trigg007

mattyjman said:


> second, if i wanted to add rear fill, how would i do that with only 8 outputs... i would probably use the chip power for the horns, and amps for the other speakers... 4 chan for surround and midrange, and 4 chan bridged for the midbasses.. how do i get 10 channels out of 8 outputs?


I know the answer to this one:laugh: 

You have to use an external passive or active crossover. Like running your mids & midbass from a passive & horns from the MS8 for 4 channels instead of 6...


----------



## tornaido_3927

mattyjman said:


> second, if i wanted to add rear fill, how would i do that with only 8 outputs... i would probably use the chip power for the horns, and amps for the other speakers... 4 chan for surround and midrange, and 4 chan bridged for the midbasses.. how do i get 10 channels out of 8 outputs?


Don't forget; to do the crossover option you'll need to have the mids and midbasses pathlengths equal so the MS-8 can time align properly.. Unless you can find a crossover that can do time alignment or implement it in some other way..?


----------



## michaelsil1

I don't remember if I should turn Logic 7 off or not; 3 way front plus Sub.


----------



## quality_sound

You don't HAVE to run it with or without L7, it'll be preference in your setup.


----------



## t3sn4f2

quality_sound said:


> You don't HAVE to run it with or without L7, it'll be preference in your setup.


x2, although I think in that config it does not change anything whether it's on or not since the center and rears are not activated.


----------



## 60ndown

michaelsil1 said:


> I don't remember if I should turn Logic 7 off or not; 3 way front plus Sub.


try both, trust your ears.


----------



## quality_sound

t3sn4f2 said:


> x2, although I think in that config it does not change anything whether it's on or not since the center and rears are not activated.


Andy said it will run without a center and rears but you won't get the full effect. It was, he said, noticeable anyway.


----------



## AAAAAAA

I have had good luck with a xover of 100hz for sub LP ... seems like a good compromise to get that extra impact but without getting any voices or sounds appearing to eminate from behind.


----------



## SouthSyde

Here is my long overdue little review of the ms8 for those who are interested. Lets start with my system which consists of:

OEM bose head unit
Tru technology billet 4100
phoenix gold 600ti
Dynaudio esotar2 650
Dynaudio esotar2 110
JBL 10 GTI (IB)
Tru ss6di line driver

Let me first start off thanking Andy and Adam, they were helping me set up the car even before the ms8 came in. GREAT customer service from them!!!

So i prepped the car waiting for the ms8 to come in, that was the final piece that was needed to complete the install. Instsall and set up was quite easy. calibration tookeed only a minute, which includes looking forward, looking at driver mirror and passenger mirror.

Now to how it sounds. For those who know me, i am an avid bit1.1 fan... i have sold manny to many people and have recommended it mannnnny times to people who eventually bought it. But i have to say that the ms8 might have the bitone beat. WIth just one minute of calibration the system sound greattt already, not good but greatttt. At first i was skeptical too, but trust me, it really does sound greatttt. With my old install it took me literally weeks or even months, to dial it in like what the ms8 does in minutes. The subbass transisitions soooo smoothly. i dont know how else to describe the sound, it just sounds so balanced and right.

All in all i think this is a great product and would recommend it to anyone... It has been in my car since saturday so i have had plenty of listening time already before writing this.. Here is one satisfied customer...

here are a few pics of my front stage:


----------



## AdamS

I'm correcting myself on this. Master Audio also supports 6.1 and there are lots of DTS-ES in circulation and they all play out over all speaker configurations. 

DTS-HD Master Audio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
DTS (sound system) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Harman (including JBL) supports 5.1 and 7.1 output formats in AVRs. These speaker configurations can both play back an input of 6.1. Sorry for any confusion.

Logic7 doesn't specifically support 6.1 upmixing at the present time.



AdamS said:


> 6.1 isn't common anymore (DTS ES, I think), so this use case isn't specifically supported.
> 
> I'll add it to the listen of possible updates.


----------



## Shocks

SouthSyde> Sweet set up dude Is that an RL? I would love to do some kickpanels like that in my TSX but I'm a little leery of removing the dead pedal or having to relocate it.:worried: I'm sure it sounds as good as it looks.


----------



## SouthSyde

Shocks said:


> SouthSyde> Sweet set up dude Is that an RL? I would love to do some kickpanels like that in my TSX but I'm a little leery of removing the dead pedal or having to relocate it.:worried: I'm sure it sounds as good as it looks.


WOW you have good eyes, yes its an RL. removing the dead pedal was just 3 bolts and i trimmed the carpet a little but so it layed flat..


----------



## Se7en

I've been experimenting with L7 on and off in my stereo 3 way and have noticed some interesting effects.

L7 off: the system sounds tonally a little flatter to me, mid and upper frequencies feel a bit dryer but more stable. The sound stage although very good, feels a touch less localized to the center. The most noticeable downside is that midbass localizes to it's respective side a bit more but it's not terrible.

L7 On: The overall tonal balance feels a bit "tipped up" in the trebble, but center stage becomes more focused and midbass locks into center stage. Downside: I can also hear some processing and the effect is pretty odd. Most noticeable in female vocals, I can hear almost a "fluttering" effect in the upper mid range and trebble. I suspect that this would not be as noticeable if I was running a center channel but the net effect is that it's almost as if the center vocal is destabilizing a bit, kind of like a flickering light bulb...


SouthSyde,

Car looks great!!!


----------



## n_olympios

Se7en said:


> Downside: I can also hear some processing and the effect is pretty odd. Most noticeable in female vocals, I can hear almost a "fluttering" effect in the upper mid range and trebble. I suspect that this would not be as noticeable if I was running a center channel but the net effect is that it's almost as if the center vocal is destabilizing a bit, kind of like a flickering light bulb...


Does that happen even at low volumes? It almost sounds like it could be some sort of distortion...


----------



## gutz

I've spoken to NEWPAN ( which is for all I know the only authorized dealer in ISRAEL of JBL/Harman )
They told me they have no info on the MS-8
I've left my number so the prod. manager or whatever can give me a call if he has more info

Andy , Is there any place to get it with international shipping?
Do you have any info on when is it going to get to Israel? Hopefully it will?


----------



## Se7en

n_olympios said:


> Does that happen even at low volumes? It almost sounds like it could be some sort of distortion...


It's most noticeable at lower volumes or at the beginning of a song (before things are in full swing). It sounds like processing, not distortion. The mid/tweet on both sides cutting in and out ever so slightly, giving a slightly phasey effect to the center image.


----------



## n_olympios

Ah ok then. 

Well it's not ok but you know what I mean.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Southside, glad you're enjoying it so far. I have to comment on the slippers though...no way I was gonna let that slide.


----------



## el_chupo_

ItalynStylion said:


> Southside, glad you're enjoying it so far. I have to comment on the slippers though...no way I was gonna let that slide.


You dont rock purple penguin slippers too?


----------



## michaelsil1

Se7en said:


> It's most noticeable at lower volumes or at the beginning of a song (before things are in full swing). It sounds like processing, not distortion. The mid/tweet on both sides cutting in and out ever so slightly, giving a slightly phasey effect to the center image.


That's why I was asking on or off. I can definitely hear a difference, but I can't really determine which one is better there seems to be a trade off.


----------



## BlueAc

SouthSyde said:


> WOW you have good eyes, yes its an RL. removing the dead pedal was just 3 bolts and i trimmed the carpet a little but so it layed flat..


Acura engineers hit the nail on the head with the 3G RL and TL... Then they proceeded to beat that nail into mess they called the 4G RL and TL. Southsyde your kicks look pretty nice, I wonder if there is that much room in my TL for some. Do you have more pics of your system?


----------



## ItalynStylion

el_chupo_ said:


> You dont rock purple penguin slippers too?


Too...hot....for wicked awesome slippers


----------



## MattyKHZ

Can I ask if anyone is having problems receiving the MS-8 following payment to BigRed?

I was offered a unit and paid 11 days ago but since payment PM's and emails are not being responded to.

I have since asked for a refund as I am getting no communication, no tracking number and most probably no MS-8.

If this is not the correct place to post please advise where is. But since BigRed was recommended on this post as a source for the MS-8, I feel others should be made aware.


----------



## ItalynStylion

MattyKHZ said:


> Can I ask if anyone is having problems receiving the MS-8 following payment to BigRed?
> 
> I was offered a unit and paid 11 days ago but since payment PM's and emails are not being responded to.
> 
> I have since asked for a refund as I am getting no communication, no tracking number and most probably no MS-8.
> 
> If this is not the correct place to post please advise where is. But since BigRed was recommended on this post as a source for the MS-8, I feel others should be made aware.


I wouldn't worry. I think he's trying to keep everything organized while he's running around getting it all done. I paid him last month and he's kept me in the loop thus far. The unit shipped Monday and I'll have it tomorrow. 

Jim wouldn't do wrong to anyone and I know that for sure. He's a good guy. His dealer was getting a few of them at a time. When the first shipment hit the ground he shipped them all out. The second shipment came in late last week and he shipped mine out Monday. I know he's shipping them in the order that he was paid for them.


----------



## BigRed

I am no longer offering the MS-8 to anybody. I was merely trying to help out some diyma members that wanted the unit at a fair price form a dealer. It has turned into more than a headache for me. The unit is a great processor, and I hope that eveybody that wants one will be able to get one. I have been more than happy with mine.

Matty, you have received a full refund. We had pm's going back and forth about shipping, and then I got sick and not very active. sorry you took it wrong. International was something I did'nt want to deal with. Too much paperwork, and time. Again, my apologies Matt.

All those that ordered one from me in the US will receive yours as promised.


----------



## MattyKHZ

BigRed said:


> I am no longer offering the MS-8 to anybody. I was merely trying to help out some diyma members that wanted the unit at a fair price form a dealer. It has turned into more than a headache for me. The unit is a great processor, and I hope that eveybody that wants one will be able to get one. I have been more than happy with mine.
> 
> Matty, you have received a full refund. We had pm's going back and forth about shipping, and then I got sick and not very active. sorry you took it wrong. International was something I did'nt want to deal with. Too much paperwork, and time. Again, my apologies Matt.
> 
> All those that ordered one from me in the US will receive yours as promised.


Thanks for the offer in the first place Jim and sorry it was too much of a hassle shipping to the UK. Refund has been received and I am feeling a lot less sick than I was earlier thinking I had lost $700....

At least you did more for me than Andy or Bas at Harman.......

I'm just going to get a Bit One now and get my install done. Fed up of waiting for this thing and it's been a much bigger hassle for me trying to get one.

My installer knows what he is doing with the Bit One so at least he will hopefully make some money on teh sale as well as the installation.


----------



## SouthSyde

ItalynStylion said:


> Southside, glad you're enjoying it so far. I have to comment on the slippers though...no way I was gonna let that slide.


LOL that was actually the GF sitting in the passenger seat!!


----------



## Thaid and Bound

AdamS said:


> I'm correcting myself on this. Master Audio also supports 6.1 and there are lots of DTS-ES in circulation and they all play out over all speaker configurations.
> 
> DTS-HD Master Audio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> DTS (sound system) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Harman (including JBL) supports 5.1 and 7.1 output formats in AVRs. These speaker configurations can both play back an input of 6.1. Sorry for any confusion.
> 
> Logic7 doesn't specifically support 6.1 upmixing at the present time.


Thanks for the update Adam, it was worth a shot


----------



## ItalynStylion

SouthSyde said:


> LOL that was actually the GF sitting in the passenger seat!!


Riiiiiiight....lol


----------



## Gearhead Greg

I don't think there is still any question as to Jim's honesty, but if there is, I'd like to chime in here to say he's 100% straight-up and honest! 

South Syde, is a review still pending? I'm extremely curious of the specifics (staging, etc.), as you too appear to not be using a center channel in your car. Especially after Michael's observations, I'm a little concerned with my planned install (4 & tweet in the kicks, 6's in the doors, sub(s) in the rear, most likely some components in the deck for rear fill, and NO center channel). I know L7 is optimized/designed for a center channel, but I thoght that you could still get awesome staging (with no weird effects, etc.) for the driver's seat, without one. 

Please let us know your observations on this. Also, that's a great looking install, I bet it sounds great!


----------



## AAAAAAA

BigRed said:


> I am no longer offering the MS-8 to anybody. I was merely trying to help out some diyma members that wanted the unit at a fair price form a dealer. It has turned into more than a headache for me. The unit is a great processor, and I hope that eveybody that wants one will be able to get one. I have been more than happy with mine.
> 
> Matty, you have received a full refund. We had pm's going back and forth about shipping, and then I got sick and not very active. sorry you took it wrong. International was something I did'nt want to deal with. Too much paperwork, and time. Again, my apologies Matt.
> 
> All those that ordered one from me in the US will receive yours as promised.


DOH!


----------



## VP Electricity

I have sold out on my first order, and am placing the second order this week. If you need one, let me know, thanks.


----------



## VP Electricity

And now I have PM room


----------



## jrsmiles

Is anyone running an active setup with the MS-8 handling all the controls?


----------



## rain27

jrsmiles said:


> Is anyone running an active setup with the MS-8 handling all the controls?


This is pretty much what's supposed to be done and I believe everyone is doing this now.


----------



## ErinH

Se7en said:


> I've been experimenting with L7 on and off in my stereo 3 way and have noticed some interesting effects.
> 
> L7 off: the system sounds tonally a little flatter to me, mid and upper frequencies feel a bit dryer but more stable. The sound stage although very good, feels a touch less localized to the center. The most noticeable downside is that midbass localizes to it's respective side a bit more but it's not terrible.
> 
> L7 On: The overall tonal balance feels a bit "tipped up" in the trebble, but center stage becomes more focused and midbass locks into center stage. Downside: I can also hear some processing and the effect is pretty odd. Most noticeable in female vocals, I can hear almost a "fluttering" effect in the upper mid range and trebble. I suspect that this would not be as noticeable if I was running a center channel but the net effect is that it's almost as if the center vocal is destabilizing a bit, kind of like a flickering light bulb...


I had messed around with logic 7 a bit at first at didn’t notice anything really different so just left it on. 

Then…



bikinpunk said:


> FWIW, I heard something very odd/interesting tonight...
> 
> was going through my test discs and came across the 'Fender guitar phase' tracks. When I play the 'out of phase' track, the sound goes wild... it sounds like it's pulsing from each side, back and forth... there's no phase issues per se... just sounds like someone is cutting on/off the track on each side in spurts. It's crazy.
> 
> *I wish I knew what to make of it.*



Answer: Logic 7. 
Listened to a Madonna track today titled “Live to Tell”.
MySpace Player

At different parts of the song, there are (what sound like) key that play. You hear them at the beginning of the track @ 0:23 seconds and a few other times throughout.

With logic 7 _on_ the keys don’t sound right. It’s like they’re being cut out.
With logic 7 _off_ it sounds fine.


----------



## jrsmiles

rain27 said:


> This is pretty much what's supposed to be done and I believe everyone is doing this now.


Regarding running active, I guess what I meant is, are people running the MS-8 without passive crossovers and dedicating two outputs to tweets, two to mids, and the rest to midbass/subs etc? 

Are you finding success in using the internal crossovers to high pass at the right freq/slope for the highs and band passing for mids?


----------



## rain27

jrsmiles said:


> Regarding running active, I guess what I meant is, are people running the MS-8 without passive crossovers and dedicating two outputs to tweets, two to mids, and the rest to midbass/subs etc?
> 
> Are you finding success in using the internal crossovers to high pass at the right freq/slope for the highs and band passing for mids?


The only reason I can think of to run any part of your system passive would be if you are running more than the 8 channels that the MS-8 provides. Otherwise, the MS-8 is plenty flexible enough to get you where you want to go....


----------



## mattyjman

jrsmiles said:


> Regarding running active, I guess what I meant is, are people running the MS-8 without passive crossovers and dedicating two outputs to tweets, two to mids, and the rest to midbass/subs etc?
> 
> Are you finding success in using the internal crossovers to high pass at the right freq/slope for the highs and band passing for mids?


^ edit : you beat me to it... 

i think that's what most people are doing here. the only reason to use any external crossovers would be for those that want a 3 way up front and rear surround... there is simply not enough outputs, but for those that have a dedicated 3 way or a 2 way with surrounds, the crossovers seem to excellent from what other people report... i'll be trying mine out shortly


----------



## FoxPro5

npdang said:


> Regretfully, this will probably be my last substantive post. I will see you all over at EMSQ. Thanks for reminding me


I really doubt you'll regret it, there cowboy. 

Not sure about that forum, though. Bunch of douche-whacked, elitist assholes wagging their dicks at each other...trying to find solutions to Chad's ongoing lawnmower ****ery....among other fits of nonsense.


----------



## OSN

FoxPro5 said:


> I really doubt you'll regret it, there cowboy.
> 
> Not sure about that forum, though. Bunch of douche-whacked, elitist assholes wagging their dicks at each other...trying to find solutions to Chad's ongoing lawnmower ****ery....among other fits of nonsense.


Is it shopnight already?


----------



## 14642

bikinpunk said:


> I had messed around with logic 7 a bit at first at didn’t notice anything really different so just left it on.
> 
> Then…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Answer: Logic 7.
> Listened to a Madonna track today titled “Live to Tell”.
> MySpace Player
> 
> At different parts of the song, there are (what sound like) key that play. You hear them at the beginning of the track @ 0:23 seconds and a few other times throughout.
> 
> With logic 7 _on_ the keys don’t sound right. It’s like they’re being cut out.
> With logic 7 _off_ it sounds fine.


Logic 7 steers out of phase information to the rear and it samples the music every few fractions of a millisecond. The only channels that are affected by the front and rear steering are the rears and sides. IF you have a center, leave L7 on and fade to the front if you don't like the front and rear steering. L7 isn't perfect and there will be some songs that break the code, but on balance, I think the effect is better than not having it.


----------



## xr4tic

I'm having an issue with input setup.

I hooked up Front Left and Front Right from the stock HU to the speaker level Channels 1 and 2. When I play the CD, I get:

Signal OK
Level Low

I can spin the volume knob to my hearts content, but that's the best I can get, it seems if I spin it too much, it goes to "Signal None"

Sometimes I'll briefly see "Signal Noisy" but then it returns to "Signal OK"/"Level Low"

The stock HU is capable of providing a 5V balanced signal (10V peak to peak) and 22 "clicks" on the knob is about max volume before the stock HU starts distorting with normal music, and that's what I tried to set it to.

I've hooked up a speaker to the HU output and verified that it does indeed work.

I can skip the input setup, and the speaker diagnostics work, but there is no sound once that's complete.

More info:
Car is a 2001 BMW M5, I removed the DSP amp a long time ago, put RCA connectors on the HU outputs, and ran them into an Audiocontrol DQXS, which then output to a PPI A404 (F/R) and PPI A300 (sub)

Since it's been said the low level inputs can only handle 2.8V, I lopped off the RCA connectors to hook it up to the high level inputs.

Anyone have any ideas?


----------



## CraigE

Just got my rears going (JBL P562), and all I can say is HOLY SH^T !!! 
I started with 3 way fronts and a center that sounded great, and I was hesitant to mess with it.
I had to go to 2 way fronts and center (for now), but the increase in ambience and midbass is huge.:thumbsup:
L7 man.
I'll be searching for an external x-over to go between the mids and tweeters.


----------



## BigRed

^^ i figured you would be having that impression


----------



## AdamS

xr4tic said:


> I'm having an issue with input setup.
> 
> I hooked up Front Left and Front Right from the stock HU to the speaker level Channels 1 and 2. When I play the CD, I get:
> 
> Signal OK
> Level Low
> 
> I can spin the volume knob to my hearts content, but that's the best I can get, it seems if I spin it too much, it goes to "Signal None"
> 
> Sometimes I'll briefly see "Signal Noisy" but then it returns to "Signal OK"/"Level Low"
> 
> The stock HU is capable of providing a 5V balanced signal (10V peak to peak) and 22 "clicks" on the knob is about max volume before the stock HU starts distorting with normal music, and that's what I tried to set it to.
> 
> I've hooked up a speaker to the HU output and verified that it does indeed work.
> 
> I can skip the input setup, and the speaker diagnostics work, but there is no sound once that's complete.
> 
> More info:
> Car is a 2001 BMW M5, I removed the DSP amp a long time ago, put RCA connectors on the HU outputs, and ran them into an Audiocontrol DQXS, which then output to a PPI A404 (F/R) and PPI A300 (sub)
> 
> Since it's been said the low level inputs can only handle 2.8V, I lopped off the RCA connectors to hook it up to the high level inputs.
> 
> Anyone have any ideas?


Use line level. You'll only lose a couple bits of resolution.

Whenever you turn the volume knob on the head unit, wait 3 seconds to read the status. That's the approximate length of the sequence (thought it repeats for 35 minutes)


----------



## 14642

xr4ti,
What did you use to measure the output voltage? I'm curious because I can't find any documentation that the radio in that car was ever intended to drive speakers without an amplifier. If that's the case, then the output voltage ought to be sufficient if it really is 5V, but if the outputs were never intended to drive speakers, the radio may not be built to deliver much current. Connecting it to a pair of speakers (which would be a load it was never intended to drive) would ask it to deliver more current than ever intended and that lact of current would cause distortion. 

What percentage of the volume control is "22"? Is that most of the way up?

Connecting the 5V output to the RCA level input will work fine, but before you do that, I'd like to better understand how you've determined the output voltage. If it's 10V peak to peak, then it's 5V peak and about 3.5V RMS. MS-8's inputs will take 2.8 V RMS before clipping, so there should be no issue connecting to the RCA inputs and even Adam's suggetsion about resolution won't really come into play unless you like to listen to sine waves recorded at 0dB with the volume of your head unit all the way up . I guess that's my way of saying that you should just hook up to the RCAs and it'll sound great.


----------



## Technic

xr4tic said:


> I'm having an issue with input setup.
> 
> I hooked up Front Left and Front Right from the stock HU to the *speaker level *Channels 1 and 2. When I play the CD, I get:
> 
> Signal OK
> Level Low
> 
> I can spin the volume knob to my hearts content, but that's the best I can get, it seems if I spin it too much, it goes to "Signal None"
> 
> Sometimes I'll briefly see "Signal Noisy" but then it returns to "Signal OK"/"Level Low"
> 
> The stock HU is capable of providing a 5V balanced signal (10V peak to peak) and 22 "clicks" on the knob is about max volume before the stock HU starts distorting with normal music, and that's what I tried to set it to.
> 
> *I've hooked up a speaker to the HU output and verified that it does indeed work.*
> 
> I can skip the input setup, and the speaker diagnostics work, but there is no sound once that's complete.
> 
> More info:
> Car is a 2001 BMW M5, I removed the DSP amp a long time ago, put RCA connectors on the HU outputs, and ran them into an Audiocontrol DQXS, which then output to a PPI A404 (F/R) and PPI A300 (sub)
> 
> Since it's been said the low level inputs can only handle 2.8V, *I lopped off the RCA connectors to hook it up to the high level inputs.*
> 
> Anyone have any ideas?


Use the MS-8 *low* level inputs... your OEM HU outputs are* low *level. 

I don't know how you got sound from a speaker connected directly to those balanced, low level signals of the OEM HU, but that's another thread.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> xr4ti,
> What did you use to measure the output voltage? *I'm curious because I can't find any documentation that the radio in that car was ever intended to drive speakers without an amplifier.* If that's the case, then the output voltage ought to be sufficient if it really is 5V, but if the outputs were never intended to drive speakers, the radio may not be built to deliver much current. Connecting it to a pair of speakers (which would be a load it was never intended to drive) would ask it to deliver more current than ever intended and that lact of current would cause distortion.
> 
> What percentage of the volume control is "22"? Is that most of the way up?
> 
> Connecting the 5V output to the RCA level input will work fine, but before you do that, I'd like to better understand how you've determined the output voltage. If it's 10V peak to peak, then it's 5V peak and about 3.5V RMS. MS-8's inputs will take 2.8 V RMS before clipping, so there should be no issue connecting to the RCA inputs and even Adam's suggetsion about resolution won't really come into play unless you like to listen to sine waves recorded at 0dB with the volume of your head unit all the way up . I guess that's my way of saying that you should just hook up to the RCAs and it'll sound great.


Andy, do you have this type of documentation or experience with the newest 8th gen Honda Accords with the upgraded 7 speaker system. The EX and better models that have balanced out to the little factory amp in the kicks. 

Do you know the RMS output voltage? 

Are the outputs full range?

Does the volume control cut away bass on the higher end of its scale or does it just have a volume dependent contour for the lower range? Or is it linear all the way through?

Thanks


----------



## JoeDirte

Has anyone had problems with their Bluetooth phone functionality since installing the MS-8? I'm using the Alpine KCE-400BT. I called my wife once and she said the echo was so bad we had to end the call. My theory is that the time delay of the MS-8 was messing up the noise cancellation algorithm of the BT module.


----------



## t3sn4f2

JoeDirte said:


> Has anyone had problems with their Bluetooth phone functionality since installing the MS-8? I'm using the Alpine KCE-400BT. I called my wife once and she said the echo was so bad we had to end the call. *My theory is that the time delay of the MS-8 was messing up the noise cancellation algorithm of the BT module*.


Sounds like it to me too.


----------



## ErinH

JoeDirte said:


> Has anyone had problems with their Bluetooth phone functionality since installing the MS-8? I'm using the Alpine KCE-400BT. I called my wife once and she said the echo was so bad we had to end the call. My theory is that the time delay of the MS-8 was messing up the noise cancellation algorithm of the BT module.


I replied to your question in my ms-8 thread, but I'll answer here, too in case someone else has any ideas:
Yea, my wife said the same. I’m thinking this is probably an effect of using L7 with no real center. As I’ve said, and as Curtis has said above, weird things happen when you run L7 without a center. 
Have you tried it with L7 off? If so, was it the same? I’m thinking it probably won’t be.


----------



## ErinH

CraigE said:


> Just got my rears going (JBL P562), and all I can say is HOLY SH^T !!!
> I started with 3 way fronts and a center that sounded great, and I was hesitant to mess with it.
> I had to go to 2 way fronts and center (for now), but the increase in ambience and midbass is huge.:thumbsup:
> L7 man.
> I'll be searching for an external x-over to go between the mids and tweeters.


You know, I've been wanting to try this, myself, after hearing the good things a few here such as Jim have said.

Would be pretty easy for me to throw some 3" mids on the rear deck.


I just worry about the VBA from my subs blowing them. :/


----------



## cubdenno

Could you run a 3 way up front using mid/tweet with a passive crossover? If they were next to each other say on the dash? T/A differences would be minimal and with what the MS8 does, I would think it could compensate.

That way you could have your cake (3 way up front) and eat it too (rear fill/surround).

maybe it's been covered... or as asked above, run it all active just have the external crossover instead of the passive.


----------



## doitor

cubdenno said:


> Could you run a 3 way up front using mid/tweet with a passive crossover? If they were next to each other say on the dash? T/A differences would be minimal and with what the MS8 does, I would think it could compensate.
> 
> That way you could have your cake (3 way up front) and eat it too (rear fill/surround).
> 
> maybe it's been covered... or as asked above, run it all active just have the external crossover instead of the passive.


That's exactly what I'll be doing.
L831-3 Pro SE up front with passives between the mid/tweet and L4's in the D pillars.

J.


----------



## quality_sound

cubdenno said:


> Could you run a 3 way up front using mid/tweet with a passive crossover? If they were next to each other say on the dash? T/A differences would be minimal and with what the MS8 does, I would think it could compensate.
> 
> That way you could have your cake (3 way up front) and eat it too (rear fill/surround).
> 
> maybe it's been covered... or as asked above, run it all active just have the external crossover instead of the passive.


Like Jorge above, it's what I'll be doing as well. 

T/A between the mids and tweeters is pretty much a non-issue since T/A doesn't work at frequencies that high anyway. You just disconnect the tweeters when you run the T/A sweeps and then reconnect for the FR shaping and you're good to go.


----------



## ErinH

quality_sound said:


> Like Jorge above, it's what I'll be doing as well.
> 
> T/A between the mids and tweeters is pretty much a non-issue since T/A doesn't work at frequencies that high anyway. *You just disconnect the tweeters when you run the T/A sweeps and then reconnect for the FR shaping and you're good to go.*


I don't think you'd want to do this.

I'm pretty sure the algorithm the ms-8 uses is much more complex than a simple t/a calc.
Leave the two connected via passive. Let the ms8 do it's thing. 

The one thing I would worry about, however, is level matching. I wonder if the ms-8 has a shelving filter function that allows for level matching via passives. I'm sure it does. Otherwise, I don't see how it would be able to give adequate results to those running passives.


----------



## BigRed

^^ I've tried it passive and active with an electronic crossover. it handles the levels fine


----------



## doitor

BigRed said:


> ^^ I've tried it passive and active with an electronic crossover. it handles the levels fine


Why are you using active?

J.


----------



## xr4tic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> xr4ti,
> What did you use to measure the output voltage? I'm curious because I can't find any documentation that the radio in that car was ever intended to drive speakers without an amplifier. If that's the case, then the output voltage ought to be sufficient if it really is 5V, but if the outputs were never intended to drive speakers, the radio may not be built to deliver much current. Connecting it to a pair of speakers (which would be a load it was never intended to drive) would ask it to deliver more current than ever intended and that lact of current would cause distortion.
> 
> What percentage of the volume control is "22"? Is that most of the way up?
> 
> Connecting the 5V output to the RCA level input will work fine, but before you do that, I'd like to better understand how you've determined the output voltage. If it's 10V peak to peak, then it's 5V peak and about 3.5V RMS. MS-8's inputs will take 2.8 V RMS before clipping, so there should be no issue connecting to the RCA inputs and even Adam's suggetsion about resolution won't really come into play unless you like to listen to sine waves recorded at 0dB with the volume of your head unit all the way up . I guess that's my way of saying that you should just hook up to the RCAs and it'll sound great.


There's some more info here:
TJJ is a stud (or how to get fullrange preouts from DSP audio) - Xoutpost.com

I've personally verified the 10V peak to peak output with a 0db sine wave.

Basically, the HU unit is the same for most of the BMWs of that time, I thought maybe some of them were used without an amplifier, but I could be mistaken.

There is no stop on the volume know, it continuously turns.

My original plan was to use the RCA connectors I already had, but earlier in this thread it was to use the speaker level inputs if you had an output over the 2.8V max rating.

Looks like I'm soldering my RCA connectors back on.


----------



## AdamS

MS8 Compatibility Issue: Scion XB 2010 (at least one of them) with OE Head Unit 

Problem: Scion XB Sample Rate is .7% too fast

Comparison: 2007 Lexus IS 250 is .4% too fast and MS8 supports
JVC KD-R200 is .1% too fast and MS8 supports (though you'd want to use Skip Input here, so it's largely irrelevant) 

Result: Imaging Shift 

Workaround: Play the Setup CD through the Scion's Aux input via a soundcard


----------



## t3sn4f2

AdamS said:


> MS8 Compatibility Issue: Scion XB 2010 (at least one of them) with OE Head Unit
> 
> Problem: Scion XB Sample Rate is .7% too fast
> 
> Comparison: 2007 Lexus IS 250 is .4% too fast and MS8 supports
> JVC KD-R200 is .1% too fast and MS8 supports (though you'd want to use Skip Input here, so it's largely irrelevant)
> 
> Result: Imaging Shift
> 
> Workaround: Play the Setup CD through the Scion's Aux input via a soundcard


Another Toyota with the accelerator stuck :laugh:


----------



## BigRed

doitor said:


> Why are you using active?
> 
> J.


alpine 3672 that I found on craigslist for $20


----------



## JoeDirte

*Re: MS-8 and BMW OEM bluetooth 2004*



billymonter said:


> Andy;
> Are there any conflicts between the MS-8 and the BMW OEM bluetooth module for 2004?
> 
> TIA


The issue isn't a compatibility issue so much as it is an issue with timing. 

The MS8 adds an 8 ms (is that where the name comes from? ) delay to the output of sound from the speakers. Most BT modules use an algorithm to cancel what it thinks is going out of the speakers (the person on the other end of the call) from what should be coming into the mic. If the there is a delay between what the unit is sending out and when that sound is actually coming out of the speakers, the cancellation algorithm might get thrown off.

At least I'm pretty sure this is what's happening. I'm sure someone will be quick to correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## billymonter

Andy;
Are there any conflicts between the MS-8 and the BMW OEM bluetooth module for 2004?

TIA


----------



## hallsc

bikinpunk said:


> I don't think you'd want to do this.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the algorithm the ms-8 uses is much more complex than a simple t/a calc.
> Leave the two connected via passive. Let the ms8 do it's thing.
> 
> The one thing I would worry about, however, is level matching. I wonder if the ms-8 has a shelving filter function that allows for level matching via passives. I'm sure it does. Otherwise, I don't see how it would be able to give adequate results to those running passives.


iirc, I think that's excatly what Andy told me to do in a post maybe 30 pages back when I asked him this same question. With a 3-way using passive crossover between mids and tweets, unplug the tweets during the time alignment part of the tuning. Then plug back in for rest. Andy is welcome to correct me, but that was what I took from his solution to the 3-way plus rears plus sub plus center (optional) problem. For level matching, the passive crossover should level it enough to allow the EQ to take care of the rest, I would think, provided the crossover would have a +/- 2dB or whatever setting for the tweets. Maybe even without.


----------



## kkant

*Re: MS-8 and BMW OEM bluetooth 2004*



JoeDirte said:


> The issue isn't a compatibility issue so much as it is an issue with timing.
> 
> The MS8 adds an 8 ms (is that where the name comes from? ) delay to the output of sound from the speakers. Most BT modules use an algorithm to cancel what it thinks is going out of the speakers (the person on the other end of the call) from what should be coming into the mic. If the there is a delay between what the unit is sending out and when that sound is actually coming out of the speakers, the cancellation algorithm might get thrown off.
> 
> At least I'm pretty sure this is what's happening. I'm sure someone will be quick to correct me if I'm wrong.


Crap. Hadn't thought about that. 

Adam or Andy, did you guys happen to test OEM or aftermarket bluetooth with MS-8 in the mix? If the problem is indeed caused by the additional delay, which seems as likely as not to be the case, it might not be easy or even possible to solve this problem.

One possible way to fix this in some cases: most higher-end OEM systems have their own DSP. If one could bypass that DSP by tapping into the OEM DSP input rather than the output, perhaps the delay of the OEM DSP would be similar enough to the MS-8's delay that the bluetooth cancelling algorithms would not be affected.

Since the input to some OEM DSPs involves multiple parallel selectable signal lines (e.g. an analog line for radio + a digital line for CD audio), the above method would rely on MS-8 being an "automatic source selector". That is, if you connect multiple flat inputs to the MS-8, and only one input is active at any time, the MS-8 would take the sole active signal as the total input signal (since the others would add zero to the sum). Seems like this is how the MS-8 works anyway.


----------



## xr4tic

Update:

It is working now with the HU hooked up to the line level inputs, although after calibration, I don't have a lot of headroom, and the bass is non-existent. I haven't touched my amp gains though, so I think I just need to adjust them up (the DQXS was capable of 7.5V outputs, and I think I had the amp gains all the way down with the DQXS outputs cranked up)

Could calibrating the system with the sweeps at too low of a level affect it? I had the MS-8 set to -40db and it might have been a little too quiet.


----------



## Dangerranger

hallsc said:


> iirc, I think that's excatly what Andy told me to do in a post maybe 30 pages back when I asked him this same question. With a 3-way using passive crossover between mids and tweets, unplug the tweets during the time alignment part of the tuning. Then plug back in for rest.


I asked him the same thing and got the same answer. He said the unit does time alignment based on the higher frequency driver. So unplug the tweet (or cover it with your hand/tape/whatever) if you're in a situation where you've got two drivers on the same channel via a passive crossover. The first sweep is the one that does t/a. at higher frequencies we perceive horizontal imaging more by intensity difference instead of time/phase. Time alignment is much more important for midbass or midrange drivers


----------



## quality_sound

bikinpunk said:


> I don't think you'd want to do this.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the algorithm the ms-8 uses is much more complex than a simple t/a calc.
> Leave the two connected via passive. Let the ms8 do it's thing.
> 
> The one thing I would worry about, however, is level matching. I wonder if the ms-8 has a shelving filter function that allows for level matching via passives. I'm sure it does. Otherwise, I don't see how it would be able to give adequate results to those running passives.


T/A is T/A is T/A. I don't see how the delay could be any more or less co
plex, it's pretty simple. In any even that was the direction Andy gave for running passives so I think it'll work well.


----------



## BigRed

running passives works fine. my experience is based on the mid/tweet being fairly close to one another.


----------



## AdamS

xr4tic said:


> Update:
> 
> It is working now with the HU hooked up to the line level inputs, although after calibration, I don't have a lot of headroom, and the bass is non-existent. I haven't touched my amp gains though, so I think I just need to adjust them up (the DQXS was capable of 7.5V outputs, and I think I had the amp gains all the way down with the DQXS outputs cranked up)
> 
> Could calibrating the system with the sweeps at too low of a level affect it? I had the MS-8 set to -40db and it might have been a little too quiet.


Turn up your amp gains before Setup, and turn master volume down during setup.

Then, when setup is done, turn your master volume back up.

There are other ways, but this is straightforward


----------



## AdamS

BigRed said:


> running passives works fine. my experience is based on the mid/tweet being fairly close to one another.


Yes. If they're close together, you can use passives. If they're far apart, MS8 will choose the higher frequency driver and this might cause an issue. If using an external digital crossover, turn off the higher frequency driver during the first set of sweeps at each position. Then turn it back on for sweeps 2,3,4. This will localize to the mid instead of the tweet.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy or Adam, would you please comment on the bluetooth echo issue some people are reporting?


----------



## AdamS

kaigoss69 said:


> Andy or Adam, would you please comment on the bluetooth echo issue some people are reporting?


I don't want to get into details right here.

But, Andy thinks he has a solution. When he gets back from China, we'll review.

We're aiming at a solution where when someone calls, you hit the Mute button, and it turns off certain functionality so that BT works.

Maybe a tristate Mute button:

Music->Mute->BT->Music

Or maybe a sub menu that lets you choose whether the Mute button is BT or audio mute.

With a standard PC laptop, you can update MS8, but we'll get into that later.


----------



## quality_sound

I would NOT be a fan of that. All I have to do now to accept a call is press my iDrive knob, I definitely don't want to have to press a second button.


----------



## kaigoss69

That is pretty disappointing to say the least. I do a lot of calls from my car, most of them business, and having to hit another button to make BT work seems like a royal PITA. For now, my plans to install the MS-8 are on hold.


----------



## AdamS

understood. we'll investigate this a bit before suggesting anything formally.

if it's Logic7, there's one solution (above). if it's time delay (for proper EC) there's another (reducing system latency).


----------



## JoeDirte

I haven't had a chance yet to test mine out with Logic 7 on/off. I'll have to try it tomorrow and report back. It sucks to lose the convenience of BT, but I guess you have to weigh it against the increase in SQ.

And, I guess that's what I get for being an earlier adopter. I'm sure they'll have all this figured in the MS-9


----------



## rcurley55

bluetooth is a deal breaker for me - bummer


----------



## SKG

JoeDirte said:


> I'm sure they'll have all this figured in the MS-9


I think JBL started talking about MS-8 4-5 years ago. If they haven't even started talking about ms-9 yet, I think you're in for a bit of a wait


----------



## 14642

Hey everyone,
I'm now back from China. We'll get on this bluetooth thing ASAP. Obviously, a software fix will be faster than a fix that requires hardware. The issue is undoubtedly delay through the processor. While a completely transparent solution is our goal, a 100% reliable solution is more important than a completely transparent one. Sorry for the hassles. 

If those of you who are having trouble would please PM me or Adam the make model and year of your car, we'll get on those use cases first. If any of you that use bluetooth are NOT having trouble, knowing which cars are OK will greatly help with this investigation.


----------



## ErinH

I just verified that my Z110BT setup has an issue, too, with BT.

Wife says it echos no matter what I do.
I can hear fine, but callers can't.

Does it with L7 on and off.
Does it with cancellation of 'echo defeat' on & off on my z110bt _and_ my blackberry itself.

Doesn't matter if I'm using headunit volume at max/min or ms-8 volume at max/min.


----------



## james2266

Hmm... Thanks for posting your results bikinpunk. I have your same HU and was concerned. I might just have to pull back from my swap from my Bit One.1 to this thing until this gets resolved. A growing part of me says I want to wait and see if any other negative things develop in time. It will also allow me to possibly hear this thing first hand before I go purchasing blind. I did have one question for you personally on this thing. With your current setup (from seeing your videos) you did input/output setup first and the MS-8 was saying that at 33 on the Pioneer's volume scale was too hi. I am wondering if you get distortion if you are using your HU volume as main volume and you crank it up to say 38 or so? I am just wondering if my volume control is going to end up having alot less usable sensitivity (ie max volume will now be 31 or so instead of 40 and you could cause damage if it accidently gets cranked). I guess there is a workaround for that anyway (don't crank the MS-8 volume to max) but I am curious nonetheless. Also, do you find the bluetooth is just a little irritating to use or completely useless now?


----------



## chadillac3

Man am I glad I don't have any friends who want to talk to me when I'm driving.


----------



## xr4tic

I'm still having the same issue, no bass.

I've got my sub amp gain cranked to full, but when playing music the mid/bottom end is real faint, and it just sounds like crap.

If I turn processing off, it's all there, but of course the phantom center is gone.


----------



## ErinH

have you tried messing with the EQ/bass/tone controls?

IMO, the lack of bass is simply due to the well blended bass. We're used to feeling it. Now, you can _hear_ it. Tactile feedback isn't telling me when I have subbass killing it; you have to really listen for it.

Same thing for volume threshold. I can set the ms-8 to full tilt, and use my headunit to control volume. I can run my entire setup full tilt and it sounds great. Some might feel that they've lost volume, but in the real scheme of things you haven't; you just don't have a distortion-laden system telling you that it's too loud.


Of course, all my $.02.


----------



## 60ndown

bikinpunk said:


> Same thing for volume threshold. I can set the ms-8 to full tilt, and use my headunit to control volume. I can run my entire setup full tilt and it sounds great. Some might feel that they've lost volume, but in the real scheme of things you haven't; you just don't have a distortion-laden system telling you that it's too loud.
> 
> 
> Of course, all my $.02.



an spl measuring device and some testing would answer this point.

IF the ms8 does steal 30% of a systems volume that cant be good.


----------



## ErinH

60ndown said:


> an spl measuring device and some testing would answer this point.
> 
> IF the ms8 does steal 30% of a systems volume that cant be good.


previously my music was averaging about 85dB on the RTA, based on my bitone tune.

I did some measurements last week (unpublished here) at the approximate volume level I had been listening at with the ms8: 93dB.

It sounds clean as a whistle all the way up.
I didn't touch the gains at all. Didn't do a single thing except drop it in and run auto-setup.


----------



## 60ndown

8db gain overall with significant esssqquuuee improvement?

i need to start saving.





bikinpunk said:


> previously my music was averaging about 85dB on the RTA, based on my bitone tune.
> 
> I did some measurements last week (unpublished here) at the approximate volume level I had been listening at with the ms8: 93dB.
> 
> It sounds clean as a whistle all the way up.
> I didn't touch the gains at all. Didn't do a single thing except drop it in and run auto-setup.


----------



## 14642

xr4tic said:


> I'm still having the same issue, no bass.
> 
> I've got my sub amp gain cranked to full, but when playing music the mid/bottom end is real faint, and it just sounds like crap.
> 
> If I turn processing off, it's all there, but of course the phantom center is gone.


MS-8 is designed to provide bass that's 9dB above the rest of your response. If you like a lot of bass, that's probably not going to be enough for you. When you do acoustic calibration, turn the sub bass amp DOWN. Then, MS-8 will boost the bass a bit. Then, after you've finished, turn the gain on your sub amp up. During the sweeps, if the sub sweep rattles the trunk, it's too loud. If you can feel the sub during the sweeps, it's too loud. 

There is one other possibility, especially if you have a little sealed box and you're using a really low crossover point--if that's the case, MS-8 is trying to get rid of the HUGE peak in your response.


----------



## hallsc

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8 is designed to provide bass that's 9dB above the rest of your response. If you like a lot of bass, that's probably not going to be enough for you. When you do acoustic calibration, turn the sub bass amp DOWN. Then, MS-8 will boost the bass a bit. Then, after you've finished, turn the gain on your sub amp up. During the sweeps, if the sub sweep rattles the trunk, it's too loud. If you can feel the sub during the sweeps, it's too loud.
> 
> There is one other possibility, especially if you have a little sealed box and you're using a really low crossover point--if that's the case, MS-8 is trying to get rid of the HUGE peak in your response.


Andy,

Is this why you recommend the 80 Hz crossover? Is the range of the "bass that's 9dB above the rest of your response" defined by the sub crossover? Also, would fiddling with the sub gain alone after the acoustic calibration is done essentially affect the crossover point, as you have discussed earlier in the thread (in the page 80's or 90's)? Isn't there simply a Bass Boost, that increases the level of the sub and the lower end of the midbass equally to maintain the crossover point? I am not what I would consider a bass head, but I do like to feel my bass a little, and I don't have tons of power going to my sub at the moment (400w RMS rated powering a 6ohm sub). While I would love for my sub to be integrated "seamlessly" into my system, I don't want to lose *all* of its impact.


----------



## ItalynStylion

I've been having some issues with mine and Andy has been working very hard with me to find a solution. We're very lucky to have he and Adam here on the forum. 

I've spent the majority of my day ferreting out problems with the unit and trying to figure out the cause. Initially I was just using music to tune and listen. Then about 10:30 (cst) I got serious and threw in a copy of the reference disc I made for all the DFW guys.

What I found was terrifying. You boys want a mind ****? Turn off Logic 7 and then play one of those "My voice is in phase...my voice is out of phase" tracks. Then turn Logic 7 back on and play the track again. 

Really...go try this right now and let me know what you hear....or don't


----------



## 14642

The out of phase voice should steer to the rear. That's what Logic7 does. 

MS-8 isn't going to get rid of the bass you feel, but it will get rid of bass that's more than 9dB above the rest. This is why I keep saying to turn the bass amp down during calibration and then turn it back up. MS-8 is designed to make it sound like the bass comes from the front, if possible. That can't happen if the bass is 20dB above the rest of the system. If you don't care about the placement of the bass, but you want a ton of it, then take my suggestion. Turn the gain down, run calibration, turn the gain up.


----------



## 14642

hallsc said:


> Andy,
> 
> Is this why you recommend the 80 Hz crossover? Is the range of the "bass that's 9dB above the rest of your response" defined by the sub crossover?


No, it's defined by the target curve, independent of the crossover.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The out of phase voice should steer to the rear. That's what Logic7 does.


If by rear you mean rear speakers that sounds pretty accurate. Because I get no sound out of the front and I don't have rears. It's sort of sputtering though. It's obvious it's doing something to it and that scares the hell out of me to be honest. 

I decided to play a track that I like a lot from one of the Focal albums (#6) called Boy Who Stole the Blues. I'd long suspected that this track's initial few notes were mostly out of phase. That was confirmed tonight.


----------



## 14642

oops, double post


----------



## 14642

Why is that scary? If yo have no center or rear speakers, turn L7 off. It won't do anything for you. If you have rears or a center, L7 is pretty helpful.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Which is why I normally turn it off. I had it on because every time you run the calibration it turns it back on lol

And to fully answer your question, it scares be because if it's doing stuff like that Lord knows what else it's doing.


----------



## VP Electricity

ItalynStylion said:


> And to fully answer your question, it scares be because if it's doing stuff like that Lord knows what else it's doing.


Dude, I'm sorry it's not working for you yet, but it certainly seems that L7 is working exactly how it's supposed to. As long as everything is fine when you turn it off, don't worry about it.


----------



## ItalynStylion

VP Electricity said:


> As long as everything is fine when you turn it off, don't worry about it.


Trying not to.


----------



## VP Electricity

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8 is designed to provide bass that's 9dB above the rest of your response.


Is this an overall weighted curve, or more of a shelf in the bass only?


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The out of phase voice should steer to the rear. That's what Logic7 does.


The BMW OEM L7 systems are known for the "rear fading issue". I have experienced this myself. The music will sound normal and then suddenly, it would shift certain portions of the song towards the rear speakers. It would sound weird, of course, an not natural as the fading would go back and forth. For me, this happened mostly when listening to FM radio and not so much when using CDs or the iPod. So is this the same issue (phase) and what exactly is causing it? Will it sound similar with the MS-8? How much out of phase information is in today's music and is it dependent on the source?


----------



## VP Electricity

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> xr4ti,
> What did you use to measure the output voltage? I'm curious because I can't find any documentation that the radio in that car was ever intended to drive speakers without an amplifier. If that's the case, then the output voltage ought to be sufficient if it really is 5V, but if the outputs were never intended to drive speakers, the radio may not be built to deliver much current. Connecting it to a pair of speakers (which would be a load it was never intended to drive) would ask it to deliver more current than ever intended and that lact of current would cause distortion.
> 
> What percentage of the volume control is "22"? Is that most of the way up?
> 
> Connecting the 5V output to the RCA level input will work fine, but before you do that, I'd like to better understand how you've determined the output voltage. If it's 10V peak to peak, then it's 5V peak and about 3.5V RMS. MS-8's inputs will take 2.8 V RMS before clipping, so there should be no issue connecting to the RCA inputs and even Adam's suggetsion about resolution won't really come into play unless you like to listen to sine waves recorded at 0dB with the volume of your head unit all the way up . I guess that's my way of saying that you should just hook up to the RCAs and it'll sound great.


My experience with E39/E53 HU is that they can drive speakers or drive an amp (EU cars didn't all have amps, but US cars did). The HU are the same across all OE systems. I don't know if the HU lowers the output voltage when coded to "see" a hifi amp relative to when it is coded for a speaker, but the same output pins are used. 

I know I can drive that signal straight into the 8V-capable Symbilink inputs on a Zapco amp with no problems...


----------



## DS-21

ItalynStylion said:


> And to fully answer your question, it scares be because if it's doing stuff like that Lord knows what else it's doing.


Why is it scary? Obviously a matrixing surround decoder will do weird stuff at times. L7, DPL2, neural, DTS NEO:6 and so on will all likely do similar things. But my experience (primarily with DPL2 in my home and nearfield systems) is that mostly they're a benefit rather than an annoyance.


----------



## Knobby Digital

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If you don't care about the placement of the bass, but you want a ton of it, then take my suggestion. Turn the gain down, run calibration, turn the gain up.


Is there a reason why that'd be preferable to cranking the EQ and tone controls? Or is that just a suggestion if you want an entire bushel of deebeez rather than just a few tubs?


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> The BMW OEM L7 systems are known for the "rear fading issue". I have experienced this myself. The music will sound normal and then suddenly, it would shift certain portions of the song towards the rear speakers. It would sound weird, of course, an not natural as the fading would go back and forth. For me, this happened mostly when listening to FM radio and not so much when using CDs or the iPod. So is this the same issue (phase) and what exactly is causing it? Will it sound similar with the MS-8? How much out of phase information is in today's music and is it dependent on the source?


This is why L7 has an "off" position. It's a matrix processor. It does what it does and with most music it sounds great. All kinds of phase shift happens in FM broadcast when reception isn't good. Additionally, FM is about as close to mono as a signal can get and the blend function in many tuners which is designed to make poor reception sound like good reception further monos the signal. 

FWIW, and as DS-21 has stated, all of the matrix surround processors steer according to phase. The difference between L7 and the others is that L7 does a much better job of keeping left and right rear separate. If you like it, use it. If you don't like it, don't use it. If you have a center channel and want to use L7 steering for the front (phase has no effect on front steering), then don't install rears or move the fader to the front. 

Listening to just the rears or the fronts only with L7 is an unintended use and will sound strange, of course. 

One day at CES, some of the EMEA judges got in my car (it was the demo one year) and after listening for nearly 2 hours, one of them jumped out and exclaimed, "I did it. I found something that breaks the code! Listen!" He put on some preposterous recording of a person speaking while pink noise rotated around the car. Of course, with no matrix, the pink noise won't rotate, but the combination of rotating steady state noise and a transient signal like someone speaking break the code. My response? "Dude, get out of here. It took you two hours to figure that out? You're the only one after four days who has cared that the code doesn't work with all songs and all recordings. If I were you, I'd throw that disc away.It won't work in any system. I also breaks stereo, since the noise is specifically encoded to rotate with a matrix."

I have a friend who works at an Italian car audio magazine who refers to those people as the "Car Audio Taliban". Seems fitting.


----------



## Technic

When we can expect a fix for the Bluetooth echo issue?


----------



## xr4tic

My taste in bass has changed a lot since the early 90s when I was in high school, but I still like to feel it. It's not that I want a ton of it, just that the way it is now, it's just *gone*

I'll try recalibrating with the sub amp turned down. I have 2 10" 8 ohm kicker comps in a free-air configuration in the rear deck (replacing the stock 10" subs that were there) bridged to a PPI A300 and I used the recommended crossover points in the manual. While the sweep doesn't rattle my trunk, I suppose I can feel it a bit because I cranked the gain up.

An another note, can I recommend a feature addition?

A soft-turn on feature - I find that if I'm using the MS-8 as a master volume, if I've left it turned on loud, that when I turn it on again, the music starts blasting before the LCD is ready to accept volume control signals from the remote. Either have it slowly turn up to it's previous volume setting, or make it so that it always starts at a user-specified level.


----------



## hallsc

Andy

From Page 87: 



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> OK, now that my butt has recovered from 15 hours in the same chair yesterday, here goes.
> 
> 5. The subwoofer level control in MS-8 isn't a level control for the subwoofer output channels. It's a shelving filter that boosts bass in ALL channels below 60Hz, but never above 160 Hz. When you boost or cut, the slope of the filter is adjusted. This helps to maintain the illusion of bass up front by sending the appropriate amount of midbass to the front speakers and bass to the subwoofers. It also maintains the crossover point. Here are a couple of graphs that illustrate this and why it's better.
> 
> The first one is a conventional control. It's pretty obvious why this moves the image of the bass to the back and sounds boomy. There's too much interaction between sub and midbass. This is why people claim that "underlapping" the bass is important and why so many people try to get big-assed midbass drivers in the front of the car and cross the sub at 50Hz. With MS-8, that's totally unnecessary, and the evidence of that is in the second graph.
> 
> I use a pair of 6" speakers driven by about 40 watts in the doors, another one in the center channel and a 500 watt amp on a pair of cheesy 10" woofers in an IB in the rear deck. The bass is seriously anchored to the front and the midbass is great. No hassles, no constant tweaking and I can boost bass by as much as 10dB on top of the target curve (which is a total of about 20dB) without the image shifting to the rear. I think my crossover point is about 80Hz, 4th order.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, this feature is also included in the MS-Amps using a wireless rotary control that can be paired to any number of bass and full range amps in the system.


Sorry for not checking this out yesterday, as it answered my question about the range of bass boost by the MS-8, I was just tired and didn't feel like running through 20 pages looking for it. However, this does illustrate the question I had about adjusting the sub amp gain after the acoustic calibration. Wouldn't this change the crossover point, like in the first graph above? 
I guess I will just find out for myself when I get this, if/when the BT issue is fixed - I hate to say it about a piece of equipment with so much potential, but on my base I cannot drive and talk on the cell phone unless hands-free Bluetooth is used. I think it's actually a FL state law as well, but if it is they don't enforce it as strictly.


----------



## quality_sound

hallsc said:


> I hate to say it about a piece of equipment with so much potential, but on my base I cannot drive and talk on the cell phone unless hands-free Bluetooth is used. I think it's actually a FL state law as well, but if it is they don't enforce it as strictly.



it's actually DoD-wide policy and CA is REALLY cracking down on it as well. I have a feeling a number of states are hitting it more and more. 

I have a feeling that Andy and Adam have a good idea what they can do to fix it though and I fully expect it to be a simple fix. I just hope it doesn't require any extra button-mashing. *hint-hint*


----------



## ItalynStylion

I forgot to mention yesterday that I don't have the Bluetooth issue that some are having. Or at least no one on the other end of the phone has said so. Toyota Tacoma with an Eclipse AVN 726e if that helps you guys ferret out the problem.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> This is why L7 has an "off" position. It's a matrix processor. It does what it does and with most music it sounds great. All kinds of phase shift happens in FM broadcast when reception isn't good. Additionally, FM is about as close to mono as a signal can get and the blend function in many tuners which is designed to make poor reception sound like good reception further monos the signal.
> 
> FWIW, and as DS-21 has stated, all of the matrix surround processors steer according to phase. The difference between L7 and the others is that L7 does a much better job of keeping left and right rear separate. If you like it, use it. If you don't like it, don't use it. *If you have a center channel and want to use L7 steering for the front (phase has no effect on front steering), then don't install rears or move the fader to the front.*
> 
> Listening to just the rears or the fronts only with L7 is an unintended use and will sound strange, of course.
> 
> One day at CES, some of the EMEA judges got in my car (it was the demo one year) and after listening for nearly 2 hours, one of them jumped out and exclaimed, "I did it. I found something that breaks the code! Listen!" He put on some preposterous recording of a person speaking while pink noise rotated around the car. Of course, with no matrix, the pink noise won't rotate, but the combination of rotating steady state noise and a transient signal like someone speaking break the code. My response? "Dude, get out of here. It took you two hours to figure that out? You're the only one after four days who has cared that the code doesn't work with all songs and all recordings. If I were you, I'd throw that disc away.It won't work in any system. I also breaks stereo, since the noise is specifically encoded to rotate with a matrix."
> 
> I have a friend who works at an Italian car audio magazine who refers to those people as the "Car Audio Taliban". Seems fitting.


Just to be clear. When "rear" is not enabled and Logic7 is on, the MS-8 automatically fades the out of phase info. to the front (or simply never send it to the rear)? 

Eliminating the phasing issue on this particular configuration (ie Logic7 on with L/C/R+sub)?


----------



## Technic

ItalynStylion said:


> I forgot to mention yesterday that I don't have the Bluetooth issue that some are having. Or at least no one on the other end of the phone has said so. Toyota Tacoma with an Eclipse AVN 726e if that helps you guys ferret out the problem.


Any details -especially the way the BT calls are routed by your HU- about your particular setup?


----------



## ItalynStylion

Technic said:


> Any details -especially the way the BT calls are routed by your HU- about your particular setup?


I'll give you everything I've got starting at the beginning of the signal.

My BT mic is located directly in the center of the car above the rear view mirror. My Eclipse AVN 726e has the BT module built into the unit. That's all I really know though.

Do you guys who are having the BT problem have the ability to stream music from your phone through your headunit? If so, do you have a problem with that?


----------



## Technic

ItalynStylion said:


> I'll give you everything I've got starting at the beginning of the signal.
> 
> My BT mic is located directly in the center of the car above the rear view mirror. My Eclipse AVN 726e has the BT module built into the unit. That's all I really know though.
> 
> Do you guys who are having the BT problem have the ability to stream music from your phone through your headunit? If so, do you have a problem with that?


Thanks... any center speaker in your system? No echo at all regardless of Logic7?


----------



## ItalynStylion

Can't comment on the Logic7 because I've been keeping it off (unless I've just run the calibration and it defaults). I'll give it a shot again later today and make sure it's still working fine or if the person on the other end of the phone yesterday was just being polite.

Oh, and no center here.


----------



## hallsc

ItalynStylion said:


> I forgot to mention yesterday that I don't have the Bluetooth issue that some are having. Or at least no one on the other end of the phone has said so. Toyota Tacoma with an Eclipse AVN 726e if that helps you guys ferret out the problem.


Hmmm, maybe that means that Eclipse decks do not suffer this problem; that would help me as I have the 7200 right now...is there anyone else running the MS-8 from and Eclipse HU right now?


----------



## ItalynStylion

^Good question.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Boys....I think I've done it. I think I finally got it right. Instead of bringing down all the gains as I was told initially; I ended up just pulling down the sub channel like Andy just said. After that I pulled up the sub gain almost to where I had it pre-processor and it's back!

I thought it was weird to have to do this but it certainly did the trick so I'm quite a bit happier now. I know some of you are thinking "This guy must be a basshead fanboi" but seriously, I'm not. I listen to full range (4" single driver) horns at home as my reference. And remember, I'm the 6.5" sub guy 


Andy, one more question (if I may)...in your experience, what effect does increasing or decreasing the angle of your head during calibration have on the center stage? I'm curious because I have a truck and my mirrors are about a foot long. My tweeters are mounted in the sail panels that cover the mirror bolts/wires and I've considered looking directly at the tweets. I haven't tried another tune yet since I got it right; scared I'll screw it up.


----------



## t3sn4f2

ItalynStylion said:


> Boys....I think I've done it. I think I finally got it right. Instead of bringing down all the gains as I was told initially; I ended up just pulling down the sub channel like Andy just said. After that I pulled up the sub gain almost to where I had it pre-processor and it's back!
> 
> I thought it was weird to have to do this but it certainly did the trick so I'm quite a bit happier now. I know some of you are thinking "This guy must be a basshead fanboi" but seriously, I'm not. I listen to full range (4" single driver) horns at home as my reference. And remember, I'm the 6.5" sub guy
> 
> 
> Andy, one more question (if I may)...in your experience, what effect does increasing or decreasing the angle of your head during calibration have on the center stage? I'm curious because I have a truck and my mirrors are about a foot long. My tweeters are mounted in the sail panels that cover the mirror bolts/wires and I've considered looking directly at the tweets. *I haven't tried another tune yet since I got it right; scared I'll screw it up*.


Best reason right there for a second calibration preset option with a toggle.


----------



## ErinH

congrats, Steven!

Now, what are your thoughts on the overall system?


----------



## quality_sound

t3sn4f2 said:


> Best reason right there for a second calibration preset option with a toggle.


Didn't Andy say there were 4 presets?


----------



## t3sn4f2

quality_sound said:


> Didn't Andy say there were 4 presets?


Not for the calibration part, only for the settings afterwards.


----------



## ItalynStylion

quality_sound said:


> Didn't Andy say there were 4 presets?


There is a "favorites" option on there but I haven't messed with it just yet. I'm thinking it does that but I don't know if it just saves the graphic EQ and levels or absolutely everything. I'm wanting to go look at what I have my crossovers set at without recalibrating too but the damn thing wont let me. Can you shed light on any of those Andy?


bikinpunk said:


> congrats, Steven!
> 
> Now, what are your thoughts on the overall system?


Pretty good so far. I have get to get an ultra defined center image but it's pretty darn good. I'm thinking the more I play with the head angles the better I'll get at tricking the unit. 

Overall I'm liking it though. I've only got about 30 minutes of play time on it now. I'll be doing more in a bit.


----------



## ItalynStylion

t3sn4f2 said:


> Not for the calibration part, only for the settings afterwards.


Damn, oh well.


----------



## t3sn4f2

quality_sound said:


> Didn't Andy say there were 4 presets?


5 by the way, one's hiding off screen on the bottom.


----------



## t3sn4f2

AdamS said:


> This is the starting point of a Favorite (preset).
> 
> The preset is essentially a snapshot of the *Audio Control menu*, which includes a Seat choice (driver, passenger, front, rear ,all)


^^^^^


----------



## thehatedguy

We finally got a few in stock


----------



## michaelsil1

t3sn4f2 said:


> Not for the calibration part, only for the settings afterwards.


That's been my experience, I initially thought we had five presets with separate calibrations. I tried to use the different seat positions for the different seating positions (windows up, widows down) I wanted, but so far it hasn't worked out well.


----------



## Mic10is

Videos Posted by JBL: JBL MS-8 | Experience it for yourself [HQ] | Facebook


----------



## VP Electricity

xr4tic said:


> There's some more info here:
> TJJ is a stud (or how to get fullrange preouts from DSP audio) - Xoutpost.com


One of my favorites...


----------



## 14642

michaelsil1 said:


> That's been my experience, I initially thought we had five presets with separate calibrations. I tried to use the different seat positions for the different seating positions (windows up, widows down) I wanted, but so far it hasn't worked out well.


Hey Michael,
I thought I explained this to you the other day. The difference between windows up and windows down will be a big change in the bass. The 31-band EQ has plenty of resolution to fix this. Since the speaker positions don't change with the windows, there's no need to time align again.

The correction filters are huge and there's just no more memory left to save a bunch of different correction filters.


----------



## kkant

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The correction filters are huge and there's just no more memory left to save a bunch of different correction filters.


Would be nice to save the correction filter settings to PC via USB. Backup settings, as it were. Using the PC would allow for an infinite number of backups and more unfettered experimentation with things like mic angles.


----------



## 14642

Oh, several of you have asked about the effect of diferent mic angles on the result. 

Here's the scoop. The first measurement in each seat is for TA. The processor uses the average of the two mic placements, essentially the point midway between your ears. You should look straight ahead for that measurement. 

The second through fourth measurements are for frequency response. The difference in the response between the mic that's closestt to the speaker that's being swept and the one on the other side of your head is head masking of high frequencies. If you turn your head really far for the third and fourth sweeps, there will be less high frequency content in the measurement and MS-8 will EQ the treble accordingly. At much lower frequencies, there won't be much difference. If you're using tweeters in the sail panels, you'll notice a difference between different head angles, as frequency response from the tweeeters affects localization at high frequencies. If your tweeters are in the KPs, there will be less difference.


----------



## michaelsil1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hey Michael,
> I thought I explained this to you the other day. The difference between windows up and windows down will be a big change in the bass. The 31-band EQ has plenty of resolution to fix this. Since the speaker positions don't change with the windows, there's no need to time align again.
> 
> The correction filters are huge and there's just no more memory left to save a bunch of different correction filters.


Andy,

I remember what you said and yes the Bass is boosted significantly with the windows down. I'm going to try and use the rear seat positions for windows down and see how that works. If that doesn't cut it I will do what you suggested.


----------



## rain27

Andy,
Are there ideal speaker locations that would produce the best results through the auto tune function (tweeters in sail panels or a pillar/midrange up high or down low/on axis vs. off axis, etc.)?


----------



## michaelsil1

rain27 said:


> Andy,
> Are there ideal speaker locations that would produce the best results through the auto tune function (tweeters in sail panels or a pillar/midrange up high or down low/on axis vs. off axis, etc.)?


There's always an ideal speaker location, but not feasible in most cars.


----------



## ErinH

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Oh, several of you have asked about the effect of diferent mic angles on the result.
> 
> Here's the scoop. The first measurement in each seat is for TA. The processor uses the average of the two mic placements, essentially the point midway between your ears. You should look straight ahead for that measurement.
> 
> The second through fourth measurements are for frequency response. The difference in the response between the mic that's closestt to the speaker that's being swept and the one on the other side of your head is head masking of high frequencies. If you turn your head really far for the third and fourth sweeps, there will be less high frequency content in the measurement and MS-8 will EQ the treble accordingly. At much lower frequencies, there won't be much difference. If you're using tweeters in the sail panels, you'll notice a difference between different head angles, as frequency response from the tweeeters affects localization at high frequencies. If your tweeters are in the KPs, there will be less difference.


good info.

I was wondering what caused the difference in FR due to varying head angles.
I think some people will want to experiment with this a bit. i've noticed it also has an effect on staging, somewhat, though hard to tell without listening for it.


----------



## Dillyyo

bikinpunk said:


> I understand. I was just joshin' with ya.
> 
> I hear you completely. The great thing about it, imo, is that it takes away a lot of the guess work. You can test drivers a bit more easily now because all the other stuff like t/a, amplitude matching, etc is taken care of. From there, you can focus solely on driver characteristics. That's a huge plus. I think the people who are less than thrilled with the end result will be so due to driver selection and install. Only time (more users) will tell just how well this thing works. But there's only one 'less than thrilled' review I've seen and that was from Buzzman.
> *My friend's getting one, hopefully soon, for his g37 coupe. * The gear is going to be pretty basic; nothing super high end. Door mounted mids, tweeters in pillars, subs in trunk. We'll see how that goes.
> Furthermore, I plan to test it in my wife's car with the mid and tweeter in the door (oem) locations. If the ms-8 does even close to what it did in my car, you can count on me repping this fully. As if I'm not already. *shrugs*
> 
> I was in the same boat as you: very skeptical. Andy called me on it. He was right. really did go into this thinking there's no way it would leave me satisfied with the staging. I was wrong. I've never been happier to be wrong.
> I'm not sure how well my results will translate to everyone else, but I feel that most others will be saying the same. I


Do you know how soon? Running a system in my car (Stock HU, Dyn 182 doors, 140 upper doors, 102 sails, 2 x 190's IB ski pass, Zapco DSP-6) all run with 2 zapco 650 AG's. Worse thing is I have really no control over the sub EQ with the DSP-6. 

Can't wait to get rid of all the Symblink cables and such although I am a little worried about some noise running unbalanced and noise (car is stock balanced). For see any issues with this 4-way setup? Haven't had a chance to read all, but I did skim over your review at work. Do you have to control volume through the MS8 or can I use my OEM knob? Intent was really to stay as stock as possible for all the A/V crap in the car.

Thanks


----------



## rockinridgeline

Dillyyo said:


> Do you know how soon? Running a system in my car (Stock HU, Dyn 182 doors, 140 upper doors, 102 sails, 2 x 190's IB ski pass, Zapco DSP-6) all run with 2 zapco 650 AG's. Worse thing is I have really no control over the sub EQ with the DSP-6.
> 
> Can't wait to get rid of all the Symblink cables and such although I am a little worried about some noise running unbalanced and noise (car is stock balanced). For see any issues with this 4-way setup? Haven't had a chance to read all, but I did skim over your review at work. Do you have to control volume through the MS8 or can I use my OEM knob? Intent was really to stay as stock as possible for all the A/V crap in the car.
> 
> Thanks


 I have 182's in the doors, 142's in the kick panels, Scan 1" tweets (never can remember the model number) in the a pillars. I have a Tru S45 on the left front speakers, bridged half to the MB with the other 2 ch to mid and tweet, and another S45 on the right. Then I have a Zapco DC500.1 to an SI BM. Using the internal processing in that for sub T/A and EQ, and using a DSP6 for processing the front 6 channels.

All that will change in a few hours when I get home and install the MS-8. We have some similar equipment, but I don't know your car or install and we all know that the car and the install make the greatest difference in the sound. In any case, I'll relay my experience soon.


----------



## raadkins16

I am very interested to hear the results for the 2 way active guys using stock locations like midbasses in doors and tweeters in sail panels. If someone is already doing this please share your thoughts!


----------



## ErinH

raadkins16 said:


> I am very interested to hear the results for the 2 way active guys using stock locations like midbasses in doors and tweeters in sail panels. If someone is already doing this please share your thoughts!


I’ll be putting my ms-8 in my wife’s car sometime soon. Hoped to have done it by the end of last week, but I’ve been too busy sending out my resume and looking for jobs in light of mine potentially coming to an end soon. 

I should have time to do it this weekend, though. Her system consists of h-audio ebony mids in the doors and dyn md102 tweeters in the doors; stock locations for both. A single Alpine pdx-5 to power the fronts and 2 SLS8’s on the rear deck. I’ll post my results.


----------



## TPMS

Hi all,
anybody installed ms-8 in a true oem 7.1channels environment, yet ?

I mean on a BMw, Audi, MB ...


----------



## Dillyyo

rockinridgeline said:


> I have 182's in the doors, 142's in the kick panels, Scan 1" tweets (never can remember the model number) in the a pillars. I have a Tru S45 on the left front speakers, bridged half to the MB with the other 2 ch to mid and tweet, and another S45 on the right. Then I have a Zapco DC500.1 to an SI BM. Using the internal processing in that for sub T/A and EQ, and using a DSP6 for processing the front 6 channels.
> 
> All that will change in a few hours when I get home and install the MS-8. We have some similar equipment, but I don't know your car or install and we all know that the car and the install make the greatest difference in the sound. In any case, I'll relay my experience soon.


Appreciate it! Sorry for the brain fart as I thought I put my car in there. mAybe because the post I was responding too mentioned the G37. Anyways, Infiniti G37S coupe. Set up is similar except I have my 140's in the upper door (wanted stock stealth). 

Let me know ASAP as I just jumped back on this forum for the first time in like 4-5 months and just learned the piece I have been waiting on for the last 2+ years is here! :thumbsup: FINALLY!


----------



## ItalynStylion

I retract my previous post, my last tune (and others since) using the late gain change method yield a very bright top end with a well bolstered sub frequency range. With the songs I listened to initially (Imogen Heap-Little Bird and Ray Lynch-Celestial Soda Pop) this sounded fairly right on since most of those songs are midrange content. I threw in some Tool (Schism) and my ears almost bled from how bright it was with NO midbass. 

Not sure what my problem is. Megalomaniac and I tried every possible solution today for probably two and a half hours and got nowhere. We even tried switching the phase on the left tweeter and midbass channels with no success. I'm bleeding for this unit to work as intended for my setup but I just don't think it will. 

I want to make sure I'm quite clear on this point though. I think it's a PHENOMENAL unit and everyone else seems to be enjoying theirs so I believe my situation is quite isolated. Everything about the unit and it's functionality is so easy a caveman....well yeah, you know.


----------



## raadkins16

bikinpunk said:


> I’ll be putting my ms-8 in my wife’s car sometime soon. Hoped to have done it by the end of last week, but I’ve been too busy sending out my resume and looking for jobs in light of mine potentially coming to an end soon.
> 
> I should have time to do it this weekend, though. Her system consists of h-audio ebony mids in the doors and dyn md102 tweeters in the doors; stock locations for both. A single Alpine pdx-5 to power the fronts and 2 SLS8’s on the rear deck. I’ll post my results.


Excellent, that will be a great experiment. I must say I hope the results are favorable. 

Good luck with the job situation.


----------



## 14642

michaelsil1 said:


> Andy,
> 
> I remember what you said and yes the Bass is boosted significantly with the windows down. I'm going to try and use the rear seat positions for windows down and see how that works. If that doesn't cut it I will do what you suggested.


That's a great idea. I never thought of that.


----------



## 14642

TPMS said:


> Hi all,
> anybody installed ms-8 in a true oem 7.1channels environment, yet ?
> 
> I mean on a BMw, Audi, MB ...


Yes. Biggs did. In a 3-series BMW. Won SBN Iasca. 

Oh, well...we used 5.1 with 7 speakers and had an active HP and LP for the underssat subs. Still won.


----------



## kennybike

Hey Andy-

I know you are tired of all these very inciteful and technical questions so I was hoping you would have the compassion to answer my very simple caveman questions. I can wire up stuff no problem, I'm just not technically oriented.

I have a 2007 Volvo V70R with the HU850 premium sound and factory sub. I know you have a R from that other forum so I was hoping my questions would be easy to answer.

Will the amplifier in the MS8 be better than what I have as factory?

I have retrofitted my factory sub/amp combo with an aftermarket sub and amp. However, the factory setup gets the sub signal from the rear speakers so I have it run to my amp/crossover via line level. I am wondering if the MS8 can produce a mono signal from the factory harness so I can run a mono rca to the amplifier for the sub?

Also, the center speaker is powered by the headunit in the R. What is the ideal arrangement to incorporate the MS8? I don't use the pro-logic setting ever, I find it worthless, if that helps the decision at all.

Also, anyone know of a good place I could get a custom sub enclosure fab'd in the Orange County, Cali, area?


----------



## 14642

ItalynStylion said:


> I retract my previous post, my last tune (and others since) using the late gain change method yield a very bright top end with a well bolstered sub frequency range. With the songs I listened to initially (Imogen Heap-Little Bird and Ray Lynch-Celestial Soda Pop) this sounded fairly right on since most of those songs are midrange content. I threw in some Tool (Schism) and my ears almost bled from how bright it was with NO midbass.
> 
> Not sure what my problem is. Megalomaniac and I tried every possible solution today for probably two and a half hours and got nowhere. We even tried switching the phase on the left tweeter and midbass channels with no success. I'm bleeding for this unit to work as intended for my setup but I just don't think it will.
> 
> I want to make sure I'm quite clear on this point though. I think it's a PHENOMENAL unit and everyone else seems to be enjoying theirs so I believe my situation is quite isolated. Everything about the unit and it's functionality is so easy a caveman....well yeah, you know.


Check the polarity of all of your speakers. make sure they're all correct. DON'T do the B.S. "put the driver's midbass out of phase trick". It's crap and it'll prevent MS-8 from having a center image AND midbass. 

I don't understand why this doesn't work in your car. The MS-8 tune is definitely not midbass heavy--maybe you just don't like the target curve. 

Just for giggles, try running the input setup, even though you're using an aftermarket head. Before you start, go to the system menu and choose "reset to default". That will put MS-8 back in the "out of box" condition.


----------



## 14642

Steven,
I've just read all of your posts again and I think one or all of the sweeps are too loud. If there's no center image, that's the problem (or midbass out of phase). Try midrange and tweeters only, no sub. 2-way front with a 3500Hz, 24dB/octave crossover.


----------



## ItalynStylion

We were running out of ideas on how to fix things so we tried the out of phase trick. I'll pull the drivers seat, change it back, and then try what you suggested. Adam also suggested that I try averaging a few different settings by doing the driver's seat and assigning it to passenger and rear then listening to the unit on ALL. 

At this point I'll try everything I can.

I'll report within the hour.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Pulled my driver's seat and set all the speaker's phases back to normal on my HD 900/5. I ran all the seating positions with them setup a little differently...


Driver - Looked at mirror attachment points by tweeters
Passenger - Looked at mirror inside edge
Rear Drivers Side - Middle of the mirror
Rear Passenger Side - Outer most part of mirrors
Then I ran the music while listening to ALL for the position to average the signals.

I even repeated with different volumes....no dice. 
I even repeated the full setup without the MS8 knowing I had a sub...no dice.
The music is very "shouty" and has absolutely no soul. 

However, for those of you who've only used one calibration point I believe the summing of the 4 seats did result in a significantly better stage. I'd suggest giving this a try when you get the chance. Also, I found the "rear" settings which were made when my head was at the most extreme angle had more midbass than the others. Hopefully these last observations can help some of you tweak out even more extreme detail out of your units.

For me I'm afraid I've given up. I've spent over 12 hours since the initial installation on Thursday in the truck, windows up, AC/engine off, holding my breath, motionless, in the blazing Texas sun...calibrating this unit. I must have run it 150-200 times.


----------



## t3sn4f2

ItalynStylion said:


> Pulled my driver's seat and set all the speaker's phases back to normal on my HD 900/5. I ran all the seating positions with them setup a little differently...
> 
> 
> Driver - Looked at mirror attachment points by tweeters
> Passenger - Looked at mirror inside edge
> Rear Drivers Side - Middle of the mirror
> Rear Passenger Side - Outer most part of mirrors
> Then I ran the music while listening to ALL for the position to average the signals.
> 
> I even repeated with different volumes....no dice.
> I even repeated the full setup without the MS8 knowing I had a sub...no dice.
> The music is very "shouty" and has absolutely no soul.
> 
> However, for those of you who've only used one calibration point I believe the summing of the 4 seats did result in a significantly better stage. I'd suggest giving this a try when you get the chance. Also, I found the "rear" settings which were made when my head was at the most extreme angle had more midbass than the others. Hopefully these last observations can help some of you tweak out even more extreme detail out of your units.
> 
> For me I'm afraid I've given up. *I've spent over 12 hours since the initial installation on Thursday in the truck, windows up, AC/engine off, holding my breath, motionless, in the blazing Texas sun...calibrating this unit. I must have run it 150-200 times*.


Maybe it's just that you're a little brain dead and delusional by now.  

But for real, that sucks man.


----------



## rain27

ItalynStylion said:


> Pulled my driver's seat and set all the speaker's phases back to normal on my HD 900/5. I ran all the seating positions with them setup a little differently...
> 
> 
> Driver - Looked at mirror attachment points by tweeters
> Passenger - Looked at mirror inside edge
> Rear Drivers Side - Middle of the mirror
> Rear Passenger Side - Outer most part of mirrors
> Then I ran the music while listening to ALL for the position to average the signals.
> 
> I even repeated with different volumes....no dice.
> I even repeated the full setup without the MS8 knowing I had a sub...no dice.
> The music is very "shouty" and has absolutely no soul.
> 
> However, for those of you who've only used one calibration point I believe the summing of the 4 seats did result in a significantly better stage. I'd suggest giving this a try when you get the chance. Also, I found the "rear" settings which were made when my head was at the most extreme angle had more midbass than the others. Hopefully these last observations can help some of you tweak out even more extreme detail out of your units.
> 
> For me I'm afraid I've given up. I've spent over 12 hours since the initial installation on Thursday in the truck, windows up, AC/engine off, holding my breath, motionless, in the blazing Texas sun...calibrating this unit. I must have run it 150-200 times.


Have you tried using the MS-8 in someone else's car to gauge the results in a different setup? Perhaps that would eliminate any issues with the MS-8 itself.


----------



## ItalynStylion

rain27 said:


> Have you tried using the MS-8 in someone else's car to gauge the results in a different setup? Perhaps that would eliminate any issues with the MS-8 itself.


Haven't yet. It's in a rather tight spot. I actually made a few modifications to the underside of the passenger seat in my Tacoma to make sure I had enough clearance. Mir and I did talk about swapping it into his car for a bit but it was just too freakin hot today to embark on a journey like that.


t3sn4f2 said:


> Maybe it's just that you're a little brain dead and delusional by now.
> 
> But for real, that sucks man.


Yes...to both :laugh:


----------



## CraigE

ItalynStylion said:


> The music is very "shouty" and has absolutely no soul.


Although I've been following closely, I went back six pages, and I'm still a little unclear about the problem.
If it is what's quoted, I for one, would appreciate a little more detail.
Thanks,


----------



## ItalynStylion

CraigE said:


> Although I've been following closely, I went back six pages, and I'm still a little unclear about the problem.
> If it is what's quoted, I for one, would appreciate a little more detail.
> Thanks,


Think clock radio...

Cajun, I've been tuning out in the car and running inside to compare with my home system as a reference to make sure I'm not just going loopy. I know what things should sound like. Last week I finished compiling a reference disc and writing 6 pages of commentary on the songs about what to listen for. I've been tuning with that very disc so I'm quite familiar with the music and am able to pick out what's missing at an instant. Plus, as noted in my other post, I had counsel today that provided a second opinion. I agree with you about giving it time over the course of a few days. Since Thursday I've basically done just that. Tune tune tune...sleep, tune tune tune.

I'm wary to rule out the unit itself being faulty but I know JBL runs a tight ship so the chance is unlikely. Before I put it back in the mail I'll try it in another car if he's willing.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Also, is anyone else getting a bias from one side of the vehicle? For me I feel like the left side is quite strong. I've tried to use the balance to move it to the right a little. I've had two people get in my car and tell me that the left stage is a bit hot as well.

Could it be possible I have a bad set of mic's?


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes. Biggs did. In a 3-series BMW. Won SBN Iasca.
> 
> Oh, well...we used 5.1 with 7 speakers and had an active HP and LP for the underssat subs. Still won.



thanks, I know that ..

but I mean, anybody here among all this forum's attendants ?

seems all those who already installed this thing, did not put it into a system with center AND sides AND rears for which Logic7 and ms-8 are indeed designed for ..


----------



## quality_sound

That's because almost no one has the room for 7.1.


----------



## TPMS

quality_sound said:


> That's because almost no one has the room for 7.1.



really a four-seat car is something so exotic, there :surprised:


----------



## Thoraudio

MS-8 gets play over on Engadget

It also shows why car audio is slipping though. The MS-8 is a huge product... but the market is so small it'll get lost among $100 Xbox arcades and pistol grips for Playstation 3 controllers. 

tear.


----------



## AAAAAAA

^That link has quite a pessimistic tone to it.


----------



## chadillac3

ItalynStylion said:


> Also, is anyone else getting a bias from one side of the vehicle? For me I feel like the left side is quite strong. I've tried to use the balance to move it to the right a little. I've had two people get in my car and tell me that the left stage is a bit hot as well.
> 
> Could it be possible I have a bad set of mic's?



I still say you're running the sweeps at too high of a volume. I had the exact same issue and like I said before I had to go to -61 dB on the unit (this is with gains set pretty conservatively on both amps) before it did it right.


----------



## 60ndown

ItalynStylion said:


> I've been tuning out in the car and running inside to compare with my home system as a reference


1. how do you know your home system is accurate?

2. a car will never sound as good as a *good* home system.


----------



## ItalynStylion

chadillac3 said:


> I still say you're running the sweeps at too high of a volume. I had the exact same issue and like I said before I had to go to -61 dB on the unit (this is with gains set pretty conservatively on both amps) before it did it right.


Maybe you missed the part where I said I had to hold my breath during the sweeps to avoid interfering with it. I'm dead freakin serious; they're that quiet. I can hear the sweeps in Bikini's review video on camera and they sound about as loud as his voice yet his results were good. Let me repeat, there is absolutely NO way I'm overloading the mic.


----------



## ItalynStylion

60ndown said:


> 1. how do you know your home system is accurate?
> 
> 2. a car will never sound as good as a *good* home system.



Don't patronize me.
We both know that. I'm just using it to find where the holes are and keep my sanity. 

For those of you thinking I'm a "bass head" or am trying to do this at "too high" a level...my home system that's hooked up right now is comprised of these. Running on about 1 watt each. (amp pictured not in use)


----------



## chadillac3

ItalynStylion said:


> Maybe you missed the part where I said I had to hold my breath during the sweeps to avoid interfering with it. I'm dead freakin serious; they're that quiet. I can hear the sweeps in Bikini's review video on camera and they sound about as loud as his voice yet his results were good. Let me repeat, there is absolutely NO way I'm overloading the mic.


Weird; hell if I know then. 

Edit: What would be interesting is if there was a way to pull the settings off of the MS-8, send it to JBL, and see if they can analyze the results if see if there is something obviously out of whack.


----------



## ItalynStylion

^That really would be awesome!


----------



## ErinH

do you have an RTA?

make some cables and get to work. 



in all honesty, it would probably be easier for you to send it back to them. 

wish I lived closer; I'd let you borrow mine to see what's up. 
What about dropping it in mir's car?


----------



## BigRed

I run my sweeps at -25db and have had no issues.


----------



## AAAAAAA

On some other news, for us Canadians we can get MS8 from.... BEST BUY of all places.
We can pre-order now. Stock is expected on the 30th of June and the price is a very reasonable 899$.


----------



## Thoraudio

AAAAAAA said:


> ^That link has quite a pessimistic tone to it.


While I love the information on Engadget, they are very much of the mindset, that anything that was new two minutes ago is old and busted. Back in the day, car audio was hip and cool (ok.... not really, but it was a legit hobby/pursuit for alot of young adults). Today's kids have Xbox's and iPads and torrents from their NAS's. Other than integrating their media and social networking, car audio is played for most of the target demo of Engadget.


----------



## ItalynStylion

BigRed said:


> I run my sweeps at -25db and have had no issues.


At this point I'd probably need a change of underwear if I did the sweeps that loud.


bikinpunk said:


> do you have an RTA?
> 
> make some cables and get to work.
> 
> 
> 
> in all honesty, it would probably be easier for you to send it back to them.
> 
> wish I lived closer; I'd let you borrow mine to see what's up.
> What about dropping it in mir's car?


We talked about it yesterday but it was just too darn hot. Maybe later in the week if he has time. I don't mid pulling the seat as I've gotten quite good at it recently. It would really just depend on how easy it would be to get running in his car. 

What I'd rather do is find someone local (not sure there is anyone) and swap Mic's and see what I get. Then if the problem persists do a quick unit swap and see what we get.


----------



## jimbno1

FYI - Crutchfield has them back in stock, at least that is what the page says now.

JBL MS-8 Digital sound processor at Crutchfield Signature

I am tempted.


----------



## ErinH

ItalynStylion said:


> At this point I'd probably need a change of underwear if I did the sweeps that loud.
> 
> 
> We talked about it yesterday but it was just too darn hot. Maybe later in the week if he has time. I don't mid pulling the seat as I've gotten quite good at it recently. It would really just depend on how easy it would be to get running in his car.
> 
> What I'd rather do is find someone local (not sure there is anyone) and swap Mic's and see what I get. Then if the problem persists do a quick unit swap and see what we get.


yea, finding someone who would let your borrow their mics is probably the best idea.

If you haven't gotten something figured out by next week, I'll send mine to you.


----------



## Se7en

I'm having a similar problem. Mine is biased very heavily to the right (to the point of over-driving my speakers.

Using the balance control to center things, I need to go +6 to +7 to the left on average. I also find the tonal balance to be somewhat tipped up.

In a PM with Adam, he is suggesting that I run a non-EQ'd source (Ipod with RCA adaptor) directly into the MS8 to ensure that it is not my OE source mucking things up.

FWIW, my calibration level is -28 and all amp gains are voltage matched.




ItalynStylion said:


> Also, is anyone else getting a bias from one side of the vehicle? For me I feel like the left side is quite strong. I've tried to use the balance to move it to the right a little. I've had two people get in my car and tell me that the left stage is a bit hot as well.
> 
> Could it be possible I have a bad set of mic's?


----------



## IBcivic

AAAAAAA said:


> On some other news, for us Canadians we can get MS8 from.... BEST BUY of all places.
> We can pre-order now. Stock is expected on the 30th of June and the price is a very reasonable 899$.


that is good news...now if only canadian tire had i, i could buy it outright with c-t money


----------



## rugdnit

jimbno1 said:


> FYI - Crutchfield has them back in stock, at least that is what the page says now.
> 
> JBL MS-8 Digital sound processor at Crutchfield Signature
> 
> I am tempted.


That is where I picked mine up. I would have pre-ordered from Harmon, but did not want to pay sales tax it. Just saving up my pennies for the last of my install goodies now. Can't wait.


----------



## 60ndown

ItalynStylion said:


> Don't patronize me.


1. I wasn't, it was a genuine question.

2. your speakers have the biggest nipples ive ever seen (seriously, not patronizing you) did 'pete' make them?, maybe the distortion caused by those drivers not being flush mounted in the nipples is what you are missing with the ms-8?


----------



## quality_sound

TPMS said:


> really a four-seat car is something so exotic, there :surprised:


If you feel like adding at least 2 extra speaker locations knock yourself out.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Se7en said:


> I'm having a similar problem. Mine is biased very heavily to the right (to the point of over-driving my speakers.
> 
> Using the balance control to center things, I need to go +6 to +7 to the left on average. I also find the tonal balance to be somewhat tipped up.
> 
> In a PM with Adam, he is suggesting that I run a non-EQ'd source (Ipod with RCA adaptor) directly into the MS8 to ensure that it is not my OE source mucking things up.
> 
> FWIW, my calibration level is -28 and all amp gains are voltage matched.


I still have yet to try the iPod. I believe is the one thing Adam asked me to try that I have yet to do. I didn't try it initially because with the processing off it sounded tonally right. I'll try it out later. Since I planned on this unit being permanent I had already run an AUX cable up to my glove box wired directly to the MS8. 

-28 db eh? You and Big Red both are significantly louder than what I've been told to try now. I'll try anything....again

Erin, I might see if I can find a cartoys that has one (they're a JBL dealer) and see if they'll let me pop the mic in really quick. If not I might take you up on that later.



60ndown said:


> 1. I wasn't, it was a genuine question.
> 
> 2. your speakers have the biggest nipples ive ever seen (seriously, not patronizing you) did 'pete' make them?, maybe the distortion caused by those drivers not being flush mounted in the nipples is what you are missing with the ms-8?


I don't KNOW my home system is accurate but it's one of my favorite home systems and I build/listen quite often. Keep in mind those horns have no crossover to muck things up so the sound is very pure and coherent. 

I built the cabinets and Dave and Planet 10 HiFi modified the Fostex drivers for me.


----------



## ErinH

ItalynStylion said:


> -28 db eh? You and Big Red both are significantly louder than what I've been told to try now. I'll try anything....again


FWIW, I’ve been hovering around -35 to -25 on most of my experiments. So far, no problems for me.


----------



## chadillac3

But it will all depend on your amp's gain structure. My front stage amp is a Clarion XH5410. Much like the Arc KS300.4 that is very similar, there are different gain settings to pick from. I chose the middle one. If I did the lower one, I'd have to crank up the level on the MS-8 quite a bit.


----------



## VP Electricity

Se7en said:


> I'm having a similar problem. Mine is biased very heavily to the right (to the point of over-driving my speakers.


What happens when you calibrate with the head-mikes on backwards (L and R reversed)?


----------



## VP Electricity

bikinpunk said:


> I’ll be putting my ms-8 in my wife’s car sometime soon. Hoped to have done it by the end of last week, but I’ve been too busy sending out my resume and looking for jobs in light of mine potentially coming to an end soon.
> 
> I should have time to do it this weekend, though. Her system consists of h-audio ebony mids in the doors and dyn md102 tweeters in the doors; stock locations for both. A single Alpine pdx-5 to power the fronts and 2 SLS8’s on the rear deck. I’ll post my results.


My wife has a TSX with door-mounted midbasses, dash-mounted tweeters, and a 10" sub in the trunk, with a DC360. I will turn off all the EQ, xover, and T/A and let the MS-8 do its thing. It's a factory HU with flat balanced out when you get high enough in the volume curve to get past the auto loudness, so I will probably tune it above 20/40 on the OEM volume setting.


----------



## ErinH

so, you're saying you want to trade cars?

okay.


----------



## Se7en

VP Electricity said:


> What happens when you calibrate with the head-mikes on backwards (L and R reversed)?


VP,

It's funny you ask. I tried this exact thing this past weekend with Glenn305 and SublimeZ and I got almost similar results (maybe a trace of phasey-ness).

I tried it again today (measuring one seat only) and it is the best that it has sounded. Tonality is good, treble is not tipped up, center image is rock solid and sound seems pretty well distributed across the dash. I added a touch of bass (tone controls) and it sounds like instruments in the car. 

Any theories?


----------



## 60ndown

Se7en said:


> VP,
> 
> It's funny you ask. I tried this exact thing this past weekend with Glenn305 and SublimeZ and I got almost similar results (maybe a trace of phasey-ness).
> 
> I tried it again today (measuring one seat only) and it is the best that it has sounded. Tonality is good, treble is not tipped up, center image is rock solid and sound seems pretty well distributed across the dash. I added a touch of bass (tone controls) and it sounds like instruments in the car.
> 
> Any theories?


yea,

harmen wired the headphones backwards.


----------



## trigg007

60ndown said:


> yea,
> 
> harmen wired the headphones backwards.


either that or a bad case of dyslexia:laugh:


----------



## machinehead

So I've been outta the car audio loop for a while, and today I came across an Engagdet article about the MS-8 and immediately remembered this thread!


----------



## AdamS

Se7en said:


> VP,
> 
> It's funny you ask. I tried this exact thing this past weekend with Glenn305 and SublimeZ and I got almost similar results (maybe a trace of phasey-ness).
> 
> I tried it again today (measuring one seat only) and it is the best that it has sounded. Tonality is good, treble is not tipped up, center image is rock solid and sound seems pretty well distributed across the dash. I added a touch of bass (tone controls) and it sounds like instruments in the car.
> 
> Any theories?


It shouldn't be the microphone itself. The TA calculation will work even if the wiring is swapped and the FR measurements for both mics are essentially averaged. Now, the slight angle difference of wearing it one way versus another could have a subtle impact, but we haven't looked into it.


----------



## CraigE

Adam ... How are the mics summed ?


----------



## 14642

Steven,
If you want to yank MS-8 out and send it to me, I'll be happy to check it out when I return to the office after July 4th. I can't do anything until then. What you're describing over and over and over sounds like a clipped mic, but if the sweeps aren't loud, they aren't loud.


----------



## VP Electricity

60ndown said:


> yea,
> 
> harmen wired the headphones backwards.


I was wondering if there was a bad mike in the head-assembly. But your result just confuses me.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Steven,
> If you want to yank MS-8 out and send it to me, I'll be happy to check it out when I return to the office after July 4th. I can't do anything until then. What you're describing over and over and over sounds like a clipped mic, but if the sweeps aren't loud, they aren't loud.


I'll likely take you up on that but I'd like to see if I can source another mic near me first. I'm wondering if there is a car toys near me that has one that would be willing to let me plug their mic in. Not sure if I'll have time today but maybe I will.


----------



## miker104

For those of you looking for a ms8 Pacific Stereo(authorized jbl) has them in stock, 951 352 1784, ask for Joe. And No this is not were I was getting mine from.. Mike


----------



## AAAAAAA

I didn't call that place but I managed to find one...oh yeah can't wait to try this thing out.


----------



## Swagger

Just picking my car up after MS-8 install. We're going through the set up right now and I have a question about the channels. I have an 06 bmw set up like this:
Ch1 - FL
Ch2 - FR
Ch3 - Midbase L (underseat)
Ch4 - Midbase R (underseat)
Ch5 - Read Side & Rear Deck L (Parellel)
Ch6 - Read Side & Rear Deck R (Parellel)
Ch7 - Center
Ch8 - Sub

When selecting the channels in the MS-8 setup. How to I get the above to work. I set Ch1 - FL as 1 way, same with front FR. I can't seem to get an option for midbase. Should i use something else like side or something? What am I doing wrong?

At the shop now, leaving in a little bit. Thanks for any advice!


----------



## ErinH

looks like you're running a 2-way setup up front.


----------



## chad

ItalynStylion said:


> Don't patronize me.
> We both know that. I'm just using it to find where the holes are and keep my sanity.
> 
> For those of you thinking I'm a "bass head" or am trying to do this at "too high" a level...my home system that's hooked up right now is comprised of these. Running on about 1 watt each. (amp pictured not in use)


Is that your mom's house? because it looks like Italian cougar decor.


----------



## james2266

I don't have one of these things yet but have done a ton of reading and research on this. I would say that you need to change your channels 1-4 to this:

Channel 1: Front Left Hi
Channel 2: Front Right Hi
Channel 3: Front Left Lo (this would be midbass)
Channel 4: Front Right Lo (see above)

I think this will give you your best results and would be the way I would set it up. Good luck!


----------



## Swagger

Yes, letting the morel crossover handle the door and tweeter combo coming from 1 ms-8 channel set as 1 way. What's the proper was to do the setup described in the last post? Thanks!



bikinpunk said:


> looks like you're running a 2-way setup up front.


----------



## ErinH

looks like the guy above you gave you the answer. 



Chad, x2. I bet Steven's mom's house is HOT! 
RAWR
/cougar sound


----------



## Swagger

Sorry, I missed that before i replied

My problem is I never see an option for that. I only see front, side, center, rear and sub. I must be missing something easy. Thanks!


----------



## james2266

Do not set your first 2 channels as one way. Set them as high and give them a crossover of whatever your hi pass would be on the midbasses. I would tend to say around 500 Hz or so maybe lower. Your door/dash speakers take over from there. This is a 2 way active front as bikinpunk stated or at least that is what the MS-8 will see. It is actually 3 way but your are using a passive crossover between your tweets and midrange.


----------



## ItalynStylion

chad said:


> Is that your mom's house? because it looks like Italian cougar decor.





bikinpunk said:


> Chad, x2. I bet Steven's mom's house is HOT!
> RAWR
> /cougar sound


Lawl, that actually is my mom's house where that pic was taken. Figured they'd look better in a more appropriate habitat instead of my apartment.


----------



## ErinH

james2266 said:


> Do not set your first 2 channels as one way.


x2. This is what I was saying about 2-way.


----------



## chad

ItalynStylion said:


> Lawl, that actually is my mom's house where that pic was taken. Figured they'd look better in a more appropriate habitat instead of my apartment.


I know a cougar's home when I see it.


----------



## Bizarroterl

chad said:


> I know a cougar's home when I see it.


Is that based on experience or ... ?


----------



## ErinH

chad said:


> I know a cougar's home when I see it.


By definition, the last time you would have seen a cougar’s home would have been 10+ years ago, no? (cougars go after younger dude's and you're out of your teen/early twenties)

Times change, man. Lately, cougars are doing the retro 80’s thing again. I love it, though. There’s nothing like getting it on to “Hip to Be Square” setting the mood.


----------



## chad

We all get old man, we all get old.

But we must teach the next generation well.


----------



## Swagger

Since returning to the office, I've absorbed what you guys were talking about. I was in a rush to get back for a meeting and had a hard time computing what you were saying. 

So, I set the front as two way and then follow the options from there using the underseat subs as channel 3 and 4. I kept thinking making it two way meant giving 4 channels to JUST the door mid and tweeter, not thinking that the other two channels would go to the lo underseat. 

I'm itching to get to the parking lot to set it up right. Thanks again!

Just a note... I'm currently using SIDES to channel my underseat woofers and while not correct, it sounds better than my car has ever sounded. Can't wait to set it properly.



bikinpunk said:


> x2. This is what I was saying about 2-way.


----------



## james2266

Swagger said:


> Since returning to the office, I've absorbed what you guys were talking about. I was in a rush to get back for a meeting and had a hard time computing what you were saying.
> 
> So, I set the front as two way and then follow the options from there using the underseat subs as channel 3 and 4. I kept thinking making it two way meant giving 4 channels to JUST the door mid and tweeter, not thinking that the other two channels would go to the lo underseat.
> 
> I'm itching to get to the parking lot to set it up right. Thanks again!
> 
> Just a note... I'm currently using SIDES to channel my underseat woofers and while not correct, it sounds better than my car has ever sounded. Can't wait to set it properly.


Glad to help and keep us in the loop. The more reviews we get on this thing the more people will be inclined to either get it or upgrade to it from their current processors. I count myself in that latter mix. I am having a tough time thinking this thing will be better than my Bit One.1 but more and more people are saying it is an improvement even over that processor. I will probably have to hear this first hand to believe it. I might have a chance to do just that soon. Crossing fingers...


----------



## Technic

Swagger said:


> Just picking my car up after MS-8 install. We're going through the set up right now and I have a question about the channels. I have an 06 bmw set up like this:
> Ch1 - FL
> Ch2 - FR
> Ch3 - Midbase L (underseat)
> Ch4 - Midbase R (underseat)
> Ch5 - Read Side & Rear Deck L (Parellel)
> Ch6 - Read Side & Rear Deck R (Parellel)
> Ch7 - Center
> Ch8 - Sub
> 
> When selecting the channels in the MS-8 setup. How to I get the above to work. I set Ch1 - FL as 1 way, same with front FR. I can't seem to get an option for midbase. Should i use something else like side or something? What am I doing wrong?
> 
> At the shop now, leaving in a little bit. Thanks for any advice!


Please report how your OEM Bluetooth (if equipped) sounds to your listeners... I'm ready to buy an MS-8 for my 2008 M3 and this BT echo issue is holding me back.


----------



## mattyjman

Hello All... I am not sure if this has been covered to any great extent already, but I am wondering if there are any caveats with using horns. I know many of the people on the forum are using a proaudio set up, has anyone had success with the horns and the MS8?


----------



## nar93da

Just to let any interested people know. I'm gonna see how good the MS-8 really is in about a week. I'm gonna be installing one into my '04 G35 with the factory Bose setup and using the internal MS-8 amp. I'm gonna be using all the stock speakers for awhile just to try it out that way. Should be interesting!


----------



## thehatedguy

I'll probably add a center and let the MS-8 power everything including the sub and factory speakers until I can build an amp rack and put everything in. Whenever I can get around to doing all of this...I dunno.



nar93da said:


> Just to let any interested people know. I'm gonna see how good the MS-8 really is in about a week. I'm gonna be installing one into my '04 G35 with the factory Bose setup and using the internal MS-8 amp. I'm gonna be using all the stock speakers for awhile just to try it out that way. Should be interesting!


----------



## Swagger

Need some help…

Little background – 06 BMW 330i with Logic 7 Nav
Replaced the speakers – 
Morel Hybrid Ovation 4 (front doors)
Morel ADMW6 (3 way add on under front seats) (mid bass)
Morel Integra Ovation 4 (rear door and rear deck)
Alpine PDX600x1 sub amp
Alpine PDX100x4 amp
Alpine PDX150x4 amp
Alpine Type R 10" subs (2 in custom enclosure – firing down)

Brought the car to my installer to swap out Clean Sweep and Summing Module for MS-8.

Install went well. I was in a rush to get to a meeting and between the two of us, we couldn’t figure out how to set the front speakers and underseat midbass to hi and lo front, so I left with the underseat subs set as SIDES. 

Even with this configuration, the car sounded AMAZING. On the ride back to work, James2266’s post made perfect sense and I knew I had to set my fronts as 2-way and then select high and low respectively.

Before I left work, I reran the config. Not sure if I was supposed to do this but I reset factory defaults and ran it from scratch. 

1 – FL Hi – 2 way passive – 4” and tweeter
2 – FR Hi - 2 way passive – 4” and tweeter
3 – Side L - Rear Door & Rear Deck L (Parellel)
4 – Side R - Rear Door & Rear Deck R (Parellel)
5 – Center
6 – FL Lo – Underseat woofer
7 – FR Lo - Underseat woofer
8 - Sub

The process went well (I ran it with the engine off) and when it came out of the calibration, even a bad FM station sounded great. I needed to take care of a few final things in the office so I shut the car off. I came back 15 minutes later, turned on the car, and it sounded terrible. It was like everything was coming out of the center with a little from the underseats. Little or nothing from the fronts, sides, or sub.

I went to my dad’s house for dinner and he wanted to check out my new gadget. We went out to rerun the configuration again. I ran everything the same except I raised the volume just before the Acoustic Calibration (probably a dumb move!) to -12 (where my nav voice and door chimes sound normal). We did the headphone mic (it was noticeably louder, but sounded fine) and all went well. After calibration, the crappy FM station was the first thing to pop on. It sounded ridiculously good. 

So, we were about to listen to a CD when I decided I should probably start the engine to keep the battery from dying. When I pressed the ignition, I heard a loud pop on the right side of the car and then the sound quality reverted to earlier – crappy sound from only the center and a little from the underseat woofers. 

So we ran it again with the engine on this time. Once again exactly the same (raised the vol again to -12) and calibration went great again. It came out of calibration and once again I went to pop in a cd, but before I could – all hell broke loose. Think of the sound that snow makes on a non-broadcasted TV channel. Now amplify that to the level of a jet engine. Ouch!!! I turned the car off because the factory volume didn’t respond and it was only getting louder. 

I turned the car back on – nice and quite… and then the fury began to build louder and louder like a jet engine. I shut the car off, popped the MS-8 fuse, and drove an hour home with only the sound of the engine. 

Am I doing something radically wrong or is there an issue with the MS-8? I’m pretty bummed right now… I’d take the crappy center channel and underseat sound rather than the jet engine. I hope the blast didn’t do any damage to the speakers… that would really suck! I’m sad because I had a taste (even calibrated wrong!) of what this thing can do… and I want it back!

Any ideas??

Thanks!

Oh, the BT sounded perfect – actually better than it ever had. Maybe due to the center channel? My wife said I sounded like I was on a land line with noise cancelling active. That, of course, was before the fighter jet fired up its engine.


----------



## 14642

This is incident #3 with the jet engine noise. I've sent you a PM.


----------



## DAT

Anyone still get decent deals on the MS-8. ..? Pm's please I'm ready to order one, ( 2nd one for a friend's car. )

thanks


----------



## james2266

woah, this is definitely a new issue. First thing I would check is your power connections to your MS-8. You said your great sound went away and weird things happen when you turn your ignition on or off so... Are you sure you have the right wire for ignition and trigger wire? I would suggest sending Andy or maybe Adam a PM on this topic. They could have a suggestion as to what else might be causing this.


----------



## james2266

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> This is incident #3 with the jet engine noise. I've sent you a PM.


So, this is a known problem?... I sure hope there is an easy solution or a known cause that is avoidable for this. I for one sure don't want to have an issue like this after shelling out this kind of money especially coming from a solid unit like the Bit One.


----------



## 14642

The Microphone MUST be unplugged after calibration is complete. The microphone is multiplexed on channels 4 and 8 and there's some leakage at low frequencies. This isn't a problem, unless you leave the mic plugged in. This is why the display reads "Unplug the microphone" after calibration is complete. Or at least I think it does.


----------



## wadejg

Andy, (and others),

I've read the whole thread and followed it since I joined but I'm not sure this has been clearly answered.

Any thoughts on whether it would be significantly better to run my front two way components passive vs active with the MS-8. Currently I run tweeters pointed directly at each other in the A pillars (previously with one run out of phase, but I'll change that with the MS8). 5 1/4 midranges in the lower door. Equal distance tweeter to ear and midrange to ear. 10 inch sub in the hatch. 

Running active would mean tracking down another high quality two channel amp to run active but I'll do it if it is worthwhile with the MS8.

I've never done active before. I've always gotten good sound from a very simple two way passive front stage and a single sub. That whole KISS concept.

Thanks,
Justin


----------



## Se7en

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The Microphone MUST be unplugged after calibration is complete. The microphone is multiplexed on channels 4 and 8 and there's some leakage at low frequencies. This isn't a problem, unless you leave the mic plugged in. This is why the display reads "Unplug the microphone" after calibration is complete. Or at least I think it does.


Andy, the display does not broadcast these instructions (as far as I know). It only says "please wait".

Having to unplug the microphone every time you calibrate does introduce some interesting installation restrictions. This basically means that that the termination panel cannot be concealed, so flush mounting may not be an option for those who need easy access to the Mic port. 

Given the unpredictable results that I've had, I do an acoustic calibration almost every time I get into the car. If I had to remove the mic every time, I would need to remove trunk panels every time. 

Please advise.


----------



## Swagger

Indeed the microphone was plugged in after calibration. I don't remember the message to remove it but I could be mistaken. I knew I did something stupid... I will try to recalibrate tomorrow morning and then unplug. Only issue is turning on the car only gives me about 5 seconds before the Thunderbird flyover - have to be quick to hit the reset button. Or... dummy me could just unplug the mic, then navigate to the restore factory defaults option and start brand new. Think I'll try that. Thanks for all of the help!



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The Microphone MUST be unplugged after calibration is complete. The microphone is multiplexed on channels 4 and 8 and there's some leakage at low frequencies. This isn't a problem, unless you leave the mic plugged in. This is why the display reads "Unplug the microphone" after calibration is complete. Or at least I think it does.


----------



## ItalynStylion

I did not know that the mic needed to be unplugged either. Mine is in a particularly inaccessible spot as well under the passenger seat. I wasn't going to unplug it till it sounded like I wanted it lol

I suppose I can try this one last thing...see if it helps


----------



## michaelsil1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The Microphone MUST be unplugged after calibration is complete. The microphone is multiplexed on channels 4 and 8 and there's some leakage at low frequencies. This isn't a problem, unless you leave the mic plugged in. This is why the display reads "Unplug the microphone" after calibration is complete. Or at least I think it does.


I didn't know that and it doesn't say to unplug after calibration.


----------



## kennybike

Ok, I've dispensed with what I perceive to be the idiot questions after reading the entire owners manual. I am left with only one question that I know is not that difficult, but I am just not a techie audio guy.

I am going to run a channel to my subwoofer amp and I will need the ms8 for crossover, but my amp has crossover as well. Where should I set the frequencies for each?


----------



## Grim0013

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The Microphone MUST be unplugged after calibration is complete. The microphone is multiplexed on channels 4 and 8 and there's some leakage at low frequencies.


Hmmm....perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to catalog the results of leaving the mic plugged in with various channel assignments. Like, with 4 = L Front and 8 = R Mid-bass, issue X is induced; 4 = R Rear and 8 = Sub, issue Y is induced; etc... Might be useful to be able to hear of a certain symptom and be able to quickly say "Unplug the mic after calibration."

...or updating the software so it actually displays a message to unplug the mic is probably easier in the long run I suppose... 


On an unrelated note, I was hoping to get some advice on how much of the gear I have on-hand should be stuffed in to the car. Particularly, I am undecided on if I should do one or two 6.5" on each side. It's been a long time since I've put together a system, and I was never exactly any sort of subject matter expert. The system is going into a 1987 Buick Grand National, and consists of the following:

1 pair Image Dynamics CD1PRO HLCD, 8 Ohm, 1WSPL 106 dB
> Phoenix Gold MS-275, *2 x 40W @ 8 Ohms*
106 + 16 = 122 dB

1 or 2 pair Image Dynamics cx64 6.5", 4 Ohm, 1WSPL 91 dB
> Phoenix Gold MS-2125 TA, 2 x 125W @ 4 Ohms,* 2 x 250W @ 2 Ohms*
94 + 24 = 118 dB
(question: Am I correct in adding an extra 3 dB to account for the effect of using 4 drivers vs. two?)

1 pair Acoustic Elegance IB15 15" Infinite Baffle, 4 Ohm, 1WSPL 86 dB
> Phoenix Gold MS-2250 TA, 2 x 250W @ 4 Ohms, *1 x 1000W @ 4 or 2 Ohms*
86 + 27 = 113 dB (+ xfer func.)

_- The power outputs I listed reflect only the options I am considering for wiring up the system.
- Outputs in *bold* represent current intentions._


Going by the math, assuming I understand it correctly, even using 4 x 6.5" with 125W each, they will still likely be the limiting factor in the install. The math has them about 5 dB above the subs before accounting for transfer function. Add up that 5db, plus the fact that MS-8 wants to add 9 dB of boost, and my occasional habit of "testing the workmanship" of my subs, and the gain from the transfer function is pretty much gobbled up. Or so I believe. 

So, I suppose the main thrust of my inquiry is this: Do I need 2 pair of 6.5's with 125W each, or is one pair with 125W enough? Since MS-8 is going to smooth it all out anyway, it would seem a waste to use 4 6.5" if I really only need 2. However, it won't be much more work to do all four, and I definitely do not want to come up short. Plus, as I said, I believe the math supports the case for going all-out.

Thanks, as always, for any input.


----------



## Grim0013

kennybike said:


> Ok, I've dispensed with what I perceive to be the idiot questions after reading the entire owners manual. I am left with only one question that I know is not that difficult, but I am just not a techie audio guy.
> 
> I am going to run a channel to my subwoofer amp and I will need the ms8 for crossover, but my amp has crossover as well. Where should I set the frequencies for each?


Standard answer: 80 Hz on MS-8, disabled/full-range/all-pass on the amp.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Maybe an update to the mic that adds a handy on/off switch on the mic end.


----------



## ErinH

I didn't know either, about the removal of the mic. Hmph.
I've not had any issues with mine and the mic has been connected since the install.


----------



## kkant

Grim0013 said:


> On an unrelated note, I was hoping to get some advice on how much of the gear I have on-hand should be stuffed in to the car. Particularly, I am undecided on if I should do one or two 6.5" on each side.


Depends on what your xover frequency is gonna be. At 80 Hz, I would definitely do 2 per side. At 100 Hz you can probably get away with one per side, depending on how loud you like to play the system.


----------



## kkant

t3sn4f2 said:


> Maybe an update to the mic that adds a handy on/off switch on the mic end.


Or, with the existing hardware, one could run a permanent microphone extension cable from the MS8 to a more accessible location. Isn't this how Biggs did it in JBL's 3-series?


----------



## t3sn4f2

kkant said:


> Or, with the existing hardware, one could run a permanent microphone extension cable from the MS8 to a more accessible location. Isn't this how Biggs did it in JBL's 3-series?


I wonder if the extra length of cable would affect the circuit.


----------



## western47

t3sn4f2 said:


> I wonder if the extra length of cable would affect the circuit.


I would guess that as long as the cable extension is of appropriate gauge without being absurdly long that it would not cause any oscillating in the circuit. Andy or Adam will certainly know the answer.


----------



## Se7en

kkant said:


> Or, with the existing hardware, one could run a permanent microphone extension cable from the MS8 to a more accessible location. Isn't this how Biggs did it in JBL's 3-series?


This is exactly what I'm doing. I run a short extender to just under the front of the rear seat cushion. This allows me to do a quick disconnect and put the headset somewhere safe.

I've also had the "jet engine" problem but unfortunatey because the system is connected to the OEM head which is integrated with the car's accessory system, there was no way for me to shut it down. 

This is a pretty serious issue.


----------



## ItalynStylion

kkant said:


> Or, with the existing hardware, one could run a permanent microphone extension cable from the MS8 to a more accessible location. Isn't this how Biggs did it in JBL's 3-series?


<---did just that when he installed it the first time. I was serious about installing it right. However, upon getting less than optimal results I was wondering if a standard stereo extender wouldn't work right for whatever reason. I decided not to use it for fear that was the problem.


----------



## Se7en

ItalynStylion said:


> <---did just that when he installed it the first time. I was serious about installing it right. However, upon getting less than optimal results I was wondering if a standard stereo extender wouldn't work right for whatever reason. I decided not to use it for fear that was the problem.


FWIW I've tried with and without the extension and the results seem to be similar.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Se7en said:


> FWIW I've tried with and without the extension and the results seem to be similar.


....

Will try unplugging the mic later today.


----------



## ErinH

I see no reason why a standard 3.5mm stereo jack extension would make a difference. I would have done it myself, but didn't see the need. Had I known it was so important to remove the headphone, I would have ran to RS and picked up an extension. Meh, oh well. Luckily, it's easy to get to my ms8 and remove the headphones.


----------



## ItalynStylion

bikinpunk said:


> I see no reason why a standard 3.5mm stereo jack extension would make a difference. I would have done it myself, but didn't see the need. Had I known it was so important to remove the headphone, *I would have ran to RS and picked up an extension.* Meh, oh well. Luckily, it's easy to get to my ms8 and remove the headphones.


That's what I did when I was breaking for lunch. They have an 8ft one that's perfect. I think the next size is like 20ft.


----------



## trevordj

ItalynStylion said:


> That's what I did when I was breaking for lunch. They have an 8ft one that's perfect. I think the next size is like 20ft.


Do you have a part number by chance?


----------



## t3sn4f2

bikinpunk said:


> I see no reason why a standard 3.5mm stereo jack extension would make a difference. I would have done it myself, but didn't see the need. Had I known it was so important to remove the headphone, I would have ran to RS and picked up an extension. Meh, oh well. Luckily, it's easy to get to my ms8 and remove the headphones.


I'm thinking the signal for the mic is lower in voltage then an RCA output, and since they are both the same type of signal cable then maybe the 3.5mm cable needs to be shielded and good enough quality as would a line level cable. 

This brings me to another thought, could the mic cable be picking up noise in ItalynStylion's unique install?


----------



## Se7en

Andy,

The manual specifically states to only use the microphone supplied with the MS8.

Would also apply to the cord as well? 

Are you in a position to expand on why an aftermarket binaural mic should not be used?

Thanks!


----------



## ItalynStylion

t3sn4f2 said:


> This brings me to another thought, could the mic cable be picking up noise in ItalynStylion's unique install?


The likelihood of that happening is small I think. I ended up not using the extender and just ran the mic from under the passenger seat up to the driver's seat. Not under carpet or anything. Just free as a bird. I have most of it still in the twist tie actually.


----------



## VP Electricity

Wouldn't the mic being plugged in only affect those installs using those two channels?


----------



## ItalynStylion

trevordj said:


> Do you have a part number by chance?


4202492


----------



## t3sn4f2

ItalynStylion said:


> The likelihood of that happening is small I think. I ended up not using the extender and just ran the mic from under the passenger seat up to the driver's seat. Not under carpet or anything. Just free as a bird. *I have most of it still in the twist tie actually*.


Yeah that's probably not it then. 

Here's another far fetched idea. A "coil" of mic wire (even flatten) might be something to avoid.


----------



## Se7en

VP Electricity said:


> Wouldn't the mic being plugged in only affect those installs using those two channels?


I'm sure Andy and Adam have a better answer. 

In my case the channels effected were 1, 3 & 5 (all assigned to left front stage).

Channels 2, 4 & 6 are assigned to right front stage and did not exhibit the jet-sound issue. 

Channel 7 is assigned to my sub.


----------



## michaelsil1

Se7en said:


> I'm sure Andy and Adam have a better answer.
> 
> In my case the channels effected were 1, 3 & 5 (all assigned to left front stage).
> 
> Channels 2, 4 & 6 are assigned to right front stage and did not exhibit the jet-sound issue.
> 
> Channel 7 is assigned to my sub.


I missed something what is the Jet sound?


----------



## AdamS

Se7en said:


> Andy,
> 
> The manual specifically states to only use the microphone supplied with the MS8.
> 
> Would also apply to the cord as well?
> 
> Are you in a position to expand on why an aftermarket binaural mic should not be used?
> 
> Thanks!


Yes. It is not a perfect microphone (like most others). But every microphone falls within a small tolerance in frequency response. We calibrated a sample of them against a really high end array microphone used by our research group.

Thus, you can you a different mic, but you would need me to send you correction curve so that you can undo it's effects.


----------



## ErinH

AdamS said:


> Yes. It is not a perfect microphone (like most others). But every microphone falls within a small tolerance in frequency response. We calibrated a sample of them against a really high end array microphone used by our research group.
> 
> Thus, you can you a different mic, but you would need me to send you correction curve so that you can undo it's effects.


interesting...

how would you use a correction file? Is this something that could be uploaded?

Sounds interesting.

I've got a set of binuarals I bought elsewhere I had been thinking about trying. I'm assuming they use the same capsule(s) as the ones that came with the ms8: panasonic wm-60.


----------



## michaelsil1

AdamS said:


> Yes. It is not a perfect microphone (like most others). But every microphone falls within a small tolerance in frequency response. We calibrated a sample of them against a really high end array microphone used by our research group.
> 
> Thus, you can you a different mic, but you would need me to send you correction curve so that you can undo it's effects.


Adam,

Can you post the correction curve?


----------



## Grim0013

michaelsil1 said:


> Adam,
> 
> Can you post the correction curve?


I would think the correction curve would be different for each model of mic, and thus not very practical to have a bunch of people requesting curves for a bunch of different hardware. Of course, I could be totally talking out of my ass here...


----------



## ErinH

Grim0013 said:


> I would think the correction curve would be different for each model of mic, and thus not very practical to have a bunch of people requesting curves for a bunch of different hardware. Of course, I could be totally talking out of my ass here...


it should be, yes.
but, from the research I've done (and assuming they're using the wm60/61), all the trends seem to be the same.
Whereas mics like the behringer ecm8000 (current ones) are vastly different.
heck, the few mics I've cal'd that used the wm-60 before they switched to whatever they're using now, are all pretty much the same. 

But, yea, each mic really should have its own cal file. The hard part is when you consider that a binaural mic uses _two_ electets. if each needs it's own cal, there's no real way to use a correction curve because the end result is summed. If you could measure separately and use a separate curve for each one, then you could then sum the two together.

This stuff gets tricky.


----------



## Swagger

Just talked to Andy - just the best guy to deal with. The system is back to normal (great!) sound. The jet engine is gone. Andy thinks i was doing the sweeps at too high of a volume and the mic didn't know what to do with the sub sweep. (The sub sweep was freakin loud - sounded impressive though lol). Anyway, I ran the sweeps at -35 and all is good in the world again. Thanks to all in the forum for your help!


----------



## Se7en

Good to hear that you're back on track!

X2 for Andy and Adam. They have both been outstanding to deal with.





Swagger said:


> Just talked to Andy - just the best guy to deal with. The system is back to normal (great!) sound. The jet engine is gone. Andy thinks i was doing the sweeps at too high of a volume and the mic didn't know what to do with the sub sweep. (The sub sweep was freakin loud - sounded impressive though lol). Anyway, I ran the sweeps at -35 and all is good in the world again. Thanks to all in the forum for your help!


----------



## AdamS

bikinpunk said:


> it should be, yes.
> but, from the research I've done (and assuming they're using the wm60/61), all the trends seem to be the same.
> Whereas mics like the behringer ecm8000 (current ones) are vastly different.
> heck, the few mics I've cal'd that used the wm-60 before they switched to whatever they're using now, are all pretty much the same.
> 
> But, yea, each mic really should have its own cal file. The hard part is when you consider that a binaural mic uses _two_ electets. if each needs it's own cal, there's no real way to use a correction curve because the end result is summed. If you could measure separately and use a separate curve for each one, then you could then sum the two together.
> 
> This stuff gets tricky.


We'll think about the best approaches here. It's not just taking a calibration curve of one mic and dividing by the other, at least from the datasheet. There's more to it. We measured in a car (diffuse field) with a mic on a dummy.


----------



## ErinH

AdamS said:


> We'll think about the best approaches here. It's not just taking a calibration curve of one mic and dividing by the other, at least from the datasheet. There's more to it. We measured in a car (diffuse field) with a mic on a dummy.


No, I agree. It would be terribly hard to cal each mic. I think the best one can really do is to pick the best electet they can and test for tolerances on each to guarantee good QC. If the supplying MFG has done this, and you trust them, then that's what you go with.

As a single end user consumer, I can deal with little issues on my own and I can afford to really nitpick if I want to. However, from a mfg standpoint, the nitpicking could all but self destruct your project. 

So, FWIW, I wasn't expecting a curve from you guys to be exact. if you trust the mfg data and have proven from the design end that the product your sourcing is within a nominal tolerance, then you work with that. 

And, again, I don't know what electet you guys are using for the mics. I'm assuming wm-60 because they're so widely used in binaural mics (from the bit of research I've done). If so, then from the calibration measurements I've seen, they all have a pretty common dip/bump at 5k/10k (recalling from memory). The datasheet supports this. Given that, a single cal file should serve the purpose to flatten out that response. Hell, I'm sure you guys also have considered the option of tailoring the target curve around the FR of the electet used (backwards calibration). 


I was just dropping my $.02 in reply to the guy who asked. I'm trusting Harmon has done all the necessary research and came to a 'best fit' solution.


----------



## 14642

Guys,
My mistake. The display doesn't say to unplug the mic. The manual and quick start guide do, though. In every instance (3) of jet engine noise, the mic was plugged in and the subwoofer sweep seemed to be WAY TOO LOUD. Our verification team is now on this and I expect they'll find the cause soon. We're also working on the bluetoth issue.

Regarding the microphones: They are WM61 clones (since Panasonic no longer supplies those mics). THe reason that those are so popular is because they are so closely matched without a bunch of additional work. The correction file does correct for an average of severalmic capsules, but it also includes correction for the shape and size of the headphone plastic. Using another binaural microphone won't improve the results because the calibration file is designed for our plastic parts. The only difference between the headphone style and an in-ear style would be at very high frequencies. To be absolutely correct, the target curve would then have to be modified to account for that difference. 

Developing a binaural microphone, a correction filter for it and a target curve that takes all that into account and achieves a desired result is no small feat and has taken months of work in correlating listening tests, measurements with standard micropones and microphone arrays using a dummy head in the car and in a chamber. I'm not inclined to make that work public or to make modification easy, because we won't be able to assure good performance if we do. 

In all of the emails and PM's Adam and I have received, there's one theme that is consistent--that the target curve is good for the vast majority of people and that the autotune, which is the most important feature, provides great results when a few rules are followed. 

I can't reiterate often enough that if the sweeps are too loud, the results won't be good. The sub sweep should definitely NOT be loud--no rattling of the trunk or bass you can feel. Just a simple low-volume sweep. If you want more bass than about 9dB above the rest and you have the subwoofer level control maxed in MS-8, then adjust your sub gain AFTER you do acoustic calibration.

And for God's sake, please unplug the mic when you're done. You can use an extension cable if you want to.


----------



## ErinH

quick question, Andy.

say you've set up your system and then done some fine tuning (graphic eq, tone, whatever).

I've noticed that this 'personal setting' will remain throughout every other auto setup you do.

So, does your personal setting effect each auto-setup after you initial added your own touches? I'm assuming not. Just wanted to ask, though, because if a person was to do multiple iterations of the auto-tune without disabling (or zeroing out) their own eq/tone controls, and the auto-tune was capturing this each time, it could wind up being a mess.
But, again, I'm assuming the sweeps start off at the base point and do not include the user's adjustments in them.


----------



## yuri

i have post this question on erin's review tread ,but maybe i should of posted here ,,soorry.

erin ,andy 

or anyone know if its possible to run the ms-8 .
3way (6ch) up front ,mono sub(1ch) and use the 8th channel for a band passed mono rear fill ?

maybe even you could use the on-board amp on the ms-8 to power the rear fill ..

if possible it would be interesting to see if it added ambiance to the sound stage depth ?


----------



## ibanzil

Ok so we have to unplug the mic after each use. What has possibly happened to the mics that have been left in for the whole time? What exactly happens/happened by leaving the mic plugged in?


----------



## 14642

The user adjustments aren't used during the sweeps. So this is no problem. 

I should add that the target tuning is designed to provide the illusion that the bass in up-front. Of course, it takes more than just EQ to do this. The levels have to be right, the woofer shouldn't make a bunch of high-frequency distortion and there can't be a bunch of rattles when the sub plays. The sub control is designed to preserve this illusion insofar as it is possible while adding a bunch of bass. If you don't care about that illusion and require much more bass, the appropriate and most successful "user adjustment" is to increase the gain of your subwoofer amplifier AFTER the autotune has done its work. I can't stress enough the importance of doing auto calibration at a low-enough level.

There is no subwoofer sweep during the first set of sweeps because we don't time align the subs--it isn't necessary and it's damn difficult to do with a peak picking algorithm. If the sub sweep is too loud during the frequency response measurements, then the sub EQ will either load an erroneous file or it won't EQ, depending on the error. There's no advantage to EQing at the loudest possible level and the range of appropriate levels is really wide. The measurement is also nealy impervious to extraneous or ambient noise (within reason), so this isn't something that has to be managed carefully during calibration, so long as the sweeps aren't too loud. I don't recommend parking next to a train track and calibrating as a freight train passes, though. Finally, all the sweeps are normlized in the algorithm, so the results of EQ at different but similar levels will be similar. The difference between a loud sweep and a soft one may be a different set of filter coefficients, but the result will be very similar. If you're noticing a big difference, then the sweeps are too loud and you're probably maxing out the available boost or cut. 

Finally, if you're using outboard amps and one band of frequencies is much louder than the others, then the same thing may happen--you'll max out the boost or cut or the unit's ability to level match. The window is wide, though--there's plenty of boost and cut available. If you're using outboard amps, I suggest setting the input sensitivity of all of them for about 2V and letting MS-8 do its work. If that's not loud enough for you after calibration, turn all of the amps up by the same amount.


----------



## 14642

yuri said:


> i have post this question on erin's review tread ,but maybe i should of posted here ,,soorry.
> 
> erin ,andy
> 
> or anyone know if its possible to run the ms-8 .
> 3way (6ch) up front ,mono sub(1ch) and use the 8th channel for a band passed mono rear fill ?
> 
> maybe even you could use the on-board amp on the ms-8 to power the rear fill ..
> 
> if possible it would be interesting to see if it added ambiance to the sound stage depth ?


Rear fil has to be stereo. That's how L7 works. If you don't have enough channels, combine the front tweeters adn midranges and use a passive. That works fine.


----------



## 14642

ibanzil said:


> Ok so we have to unplug the mic after each use. What has possibly happened to the mics that have been left in for the whole time? What exactly happens/happened by leaving the mic plugged in?


You won't demege the mics, there's just a chance that there will be some feedback depending on which channels are mapped to which output.


----------



## ibanzil

So if we don't notice any noise leaving the mic in won't hurt anything right?


----------



## ItalynStylion

Andy, you keep stressing that the sweeps need to be done at a low level but "low" is completely subjective. Can you give us a decibel estimate from measuring in YOUR car when you do the sweeps?


----------



## 14642

Between 85 and 90 dB is good. 

You should unplug the mic when you're done, just like you shouldn't play football in a busy street. Can you play football in the street when there's no traffic? Probably, if I was your father, would I tell you it's OK? Probably not. Can you drive your car as fast as it can go all the time? Sure. When you run into a flagpole or a streetlight, will the warranty pay for the damage? Probably not. My point here is that listening to MS-8 with the microphone plugged in is an unintended use and I can't guarantee great performance if you leave it plugged in. If the sweeps are at an appropriate level, the tuning will be remarkably consistent, so calibrating and recalibrating all the time shouldn't be necessary. That's why we provide a 31-band EQ. Time alignment doesn't change, speaker placement, the shape of the car's interior doesn't change and unless you're installing new speakers, they don't change either. If you want to calibrate every time you listen, then install something that will allow you to disconnect the mic easily.

This is a DIY forum, right?


----------



## ItalynStylion

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Between 85 and 90 dB is good.


I'll check what my sweeps are running at. I feel like that's significantly louder than I'm running them but I'll check regardless.


Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If you want to calibrate every time you listen, then install something that will allow you to disconnect the mic easily.
> 
> This is a DIY forum, right?


I did that upon initial installation....remote aux too....way ahead of ya


----------



## 14642

Could even be 80-85 dB. NOT LOUD--including the sub.


----------



## ItalynStylion

And I noticed no one has posted their install yet...I find that inappropriate and slacking.

(don't mind the black bundle to the right...goes to the seat that mounts over the area)


----------



## Jimmy

Andy, 
1)I have done the output diagnostics. All fronts and sided sounded correctly, but i couldn't hear sub. However, when I starts to do the acoustic calibration, I can hear the sub. What went wrong? The amplifier gain was turned to low.
2)I can hear ti ti sound when i press on the remote control.
Tks


----------



## Se7en

ItalynStylion said:


> And I noticed no one has posted their install yet...I find that inappropriate and slacking.
> 
> (don't mind the black bundle to the right...goes to the seat that mounts over the area)
> 
> [/IMG]


Looking good man!

I did post some up a week ago. Amazingly, that's already 22 pages ago!


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio-sq-forum/8257-jbls-ms-8-processor-116.html


----------



## quality_sound

ItalynStylion said:


> I'll check what my sweeps are running at. I feel like that's significantly louder than I'm running them but I'll check regardless.
> 
> I did that upon initial installation....remote aux too....way ahead of ya


Why would you do that? What coud possibly change that you'd even WANT to re-run it every time you got in? That's just silly. If you were gonna keep fiddling with it you should have stayed with a processor that doesn't auto-tune. 

It's like re-balancing your tires every time you drive to see if you can get the balance a micron better.


----------



## ErinH

quality_sound said:


> Why would you do that? What coud possibly change that you'd even WANT to re-run it every time you got in? That's just silly. If you were gonna keep fiddling with it you should have stayed with a processor that doesn't auto-tune.
> 
> It's like re-balancing your tires every time you drive to see if you can get the balance a micron better.


I completely understand why he did it. I re-ran one for a few reasons:
1) Changing Gear
2) Demo'ing the system for others
3) Seeing which crossover points work best
4) Changing Gear


----------



## Se7en

quality_sound said:


> Why would you do that? What coud possibly change that you'd even WANT to re-run it every time you got in? That's just silly. If you were gonna keep fiddling with it you should have stayed with a processor that doesn't auto-tune.
> 
> It's like re-balancing your tires every time you drive to see if you can get the balance a micron better.


I've done the same thing. It's not like that was the plan. I was hoping to set, forget and then play with the EQ.

The reason for the habitual calibration is because I haven't gotten it to sound right yet.


----------



## michaelsil1

Se7en said:


> I've done the same thing. It's not like that was the plan. I was hoping to set, forget and then play with the EQ.
> 
> The reason for the habitual calibration is because I haven't gotten it to sound right yet.


I know what you mean about the sound quite right yet, but that's not a calibration issue.


----------



## Se7en

michaelsil1 said:


> I know what you mean about the sound quite right yet, but that's not a calibration issue.


Not sure what you mean? Do you think it's an install or source issue?

Perhaps if I was using higher end equipment?


----------



## michaelsil1

Se7en said:


> Not sure what you mean? Do you think it's an install or source issue?
> 
> Perhaps if I was using higher end equipment?


Possibly install. In my case I think it's the target curve, I've been tweaking it and the sound is coming along quite nicely.


----------



## quality_sound

Exactly. The MS-8 is going to his it's target curve every time. It might change slightly, but it's better to run it once and then draw in YOUR target curve and let the MS-8 make it's changes and be done with it. With the MS-8 all you really need to know is the final curve you want.


----------



## 14642

quality_sound said:


> Exactly. The MS-8 is going to his it's target curve every time. It might change slightly, but it's better to run it once and then draw in YOUR target curve and let the MS-8 make it's changes and be done with it. With the MS-8 all you really need to know is the final curve you want.


 
Right. The curve that MS-8 hits is one I've used for 25 years to make most customers happy. the beauty of the deal is that the hard work of eliminating peaks and dips, getting TA right and balancing the crossover vs. EQ is done for you. Then, all you have to do is fiddle with an easy tool designed to make fine tuning easy, rather than using that tool (31-band) do do the hard stuff. 31-bands isn't sufficient for the hard stuff.


----------



## t3sn4f2

What about how much you turn your head "to look at the mirrors"? Not everyone is going to be at the same angles. Tall people are going to be farther back which reduces the head angles. Short people that sit closer to the steering wheel are going to turn their heads more, possibly increasing the head shadowing. Isn't the MS-8 affected by those slight differences in angles? Resulting in some experimentation there?


----------



## ItalynStylion

bikinpunk said:


> I completely understand why he did it. I re-ran one for a few reasons:
> 1) Changing Gear
> 2) Demo'ing the system for others
> 3) Seeing which crossover points work best
> 4) Changing Gear


^Yep...that's why I bought the freakin unit


Se7en said:


> Not sure what you mean? Do you think it's an install or source issue?
> 
> Perhaps if I was using higher end equipment?


ROFL....oh wow...I needed that today :laugh:


----------



## rain27

Se7en said:


> I've done the same thing. It's not like that was the plan. I was hoping to set, forget and then play with the EQ.
> 
> The reason for the habitual calibration is because I haven't gotten it to sound right yet.


The MS-8 should be pretty consistent with each auto tune. If it isn't, it wouldn't be doing a very good job. If you don't like the sound you're getting, you would need to tweak the eq yourself. It's either that or your speaker placement isn't ideal. I've moved speakers around and rerun the MS-8 and that changed the sound.


----------



## VP Electricity

t3sn4f2 said:


> What about how much you turn your head "to look at the mirrors"? Not everyone is going to be at the same angles. Tall people are going to be farther back which reduces the head angles. Short people that sit closer to the steering wheel are going to turn their heads more, possibly increasing the head shadowing. Isn't the MS-8 affected by those slight differences in angles? Resulting in some experimentation there?


No, not at all. That's why you are wearing the darned mikes!

If this thing had the curve in it for someone else's height, seat position, etc., then your point would have some validity. But the fact that it adjusts to where we're wearing the mikes makes your point moot. The whole point of tuning is to get a specific curve to our ears, right? 

I've thought about this a lot, because I'm 6' tall and I have 30" inseam trousers. I'm ALL upper body. Seated, I'm 6-4, and my leg length is that of a 5'7" guy. So if I tune to my seat position and my head height, it's wrong for 99% of the customers I work with. I actually want to start charging for binaural customer-specific measurements and tunning after the install...


----------



## 14642

There are two ways to eliminate the peaks and dips that are caused by reflections--comb filtering--from the measurement: spatial averaging and spectral averaging. We use both. The measurements are averaged spatially and then the response is averaged spectrally when the EQ filters are applied. The differences between the different head angles are small, but if you turn your head so far that both speakers (weeters mostly) are far off axis in measurements 3 and 4, you'll have more high frequency in the resulting curve. A big difference in the placement of the mic for all 4 measurements (tall person vs. very short person) will result in different listening experiences. We remove comb filtering from the measurement because we don't hear it and EQing to remove the high frequency part of the comb is unnecessary and results in bad sound. 

Through the course of developing MS-8, some of the DSP guys have developed a spectral average that performs almost as well as the spatial average (95% or so), and that alogrithm will appear in a much simpler product one of these days. It only requires a single measurement and is designed for a very specific (but very popular) use case.


----------



## hallsc

Andy,

I forgot (or maybe this isn't posted, though I doubt it), but how is the auto EQ done? Is each speaker individualy EQ'd? Is there a L/R EQ? Or is it simply and EQ for the overall output? I know the 31-band EQ after the calibration is single output EQ, but I just wanted to clarify how the MS-8 was EQ'ing during the auto tune. Thanks Andy.


----------



## 14642

The auto EQ is separate left and right for front, sides and rear, separate for center and sub also. Then, the 31-band changes the curve for all, since they're already matched.


----------



## AAAAAAA

Andy, maybe you should start a new "official" MS8 post and put together all the most common problems as well as how it works. You might end up repeating less, it might help out users more to.


----------



## kkant

OTOH, it would be kind of nice to have a thousand page thread--this device being something of a breakthrough for diy car audio. What's the longest thread on the board?


----------



## Mic10is

how about a FAQ section--you can even compile it and put on JBL site


----------



## VP Electricity

Mic10is said:


> how about a FAQ section--you can even compile it and put on JBL site


I'm pretty confident that the people on this site dropping it into an existing system, many all-active, represent a minority of the projected sales for this product. 

Harman will hopefully be putting energies into figuring out how to get them sold at retail driving OEM speakers and a sub amp. Cause that will "move the needle". (See how I can sound like an MBA? : )


----------



## thehatedguy

Hell for the time being (until I can build an amp rack and kicks), I was planning on driving everything including the sub off of the MS-8...fronts and rears will be factory while center and sub aftermarket.

Plus I want to see how this thing sounds with a center and door speakers before I decide if I even would need to build kicks.


----------



## wadejg

Andy, and others, I posted this a couple days ago but I think it got lost in the unplug the microphone issues.

I've read the whole thread and followed it since I joined but I'm not sure this has been clearly answered.

Any thoughts on whether it would be significantly better to run my front two way components passive vs active with the MS-8. Currently I run a passive setup with tweeters pointed directly at each other in the A pillars (previously with one run out of phase, but I'll change that with the MS8). 5 1/4 midranges in the lower door. Equal distance tweeter to ear and midrange to ear. 10 inch sub in the hatch.

Running active would mean tracking down another high quality two channel amp to run active but I'll do it if it is worthwhile with the MS8. The MS8 makes it easy to run active but at the same time makes it less clear if it is an advantage.

I've never done active before. I've always gotten good sound from a very simple two way passive front stage and a single sub. That whole KISS concept.

So bottom line, is a front 2 way component set better to run active or passive with the MS8?

Thanks,
Justin


----------



## trevordj

wadejg said:


> Andy, and others, I posted this a couple days ago but I think it got lost in the unplug the microphone issues.
> 
> I've read the whole thread and followed it since I joined but I'm not sure this has been clearly answered.
> 
> Any thoughts on whether it would be significantly better to run my front two way components passive vs active with the MS-8. Currently I run a passive setup with tweeters pointed directly at each other in the A pillars (previously with one run out of phase, but I'll change that with the MS8). 5 1/4 midranges in the lower door. Equal distance tweeter to ear and midrange to ear. 10 inch sub in the hatch.
> 
> Running active would mean tracking down another high quality two channel amp to run active but I'll do it if it is worthwhile with the MS8. The MS8 makes it easy to run active but at the same time makes it less clear if it is an advantage.
> 
> I've never done active before. I've always gotten good sound from a very simple two way passive front stage and a single sub. That whole KISS concept.
> 
> So bottom line, is a front 2 way component set better to run active or passive with the MS8?
> 
> Thanks,
> Justin


You wouldn't necessarily need another amp to run active... you could always run the mids off your existing amplifier and then run the tweeters off the MS-8. You could always try both active and passive and see but running active will allow separate T/A for tweets and mids (which I assume are physically separated given that you said the tweets are in the a-pillars), would give you more flexibility with setting crossover points (also allowing you to easily upgrade either portion of your components in the future), and would also equal more power to your front stage. I can't see a downside to running active in your case except the hassle of running some new speaker wire.


----------



## ErinH

Andy's addressed this somewhat already. 

The bottom line, imo, is the placement between the tweeter and the mid. Lobing; here's some info. 
You'll want to keep them no more than a few inches apart if you're crossing high (2k+). Again, lobing. 

Otherwise, you'll probably be fine. 

Andy will have to address you directly, as my reply is generic to this question. But, that should help you.



Also, Andy addressed running the tweeter off the ms-8 and letting external amps power everything else. I believe this system basically uses the lowest common denominator when setting up the auto-tune. If your tweeter is the weak link @ 18w, and you have your other drivers powered at 100w, then you're essentially negating the power for the other drivers as you make them equal to that of 'the weakest link'. If you want specific numbers, I can't give that to you (well, don't have the time to try to figure it out), but again, this is a pretty generic answer to this question. 
IOW, unless you have a highly sensative tweeter, where it's output level is close to that of your other drivers powered off 100w, you're shooting yourself in the foot by trying to use the ms-8's internal amp to power anything if everything else is powered externally.

Hope that's right... hope that makes sense.


----------



## Scooter-Man

I have to say "Hats off' to Andy and Adam for their support of everyone's questions. Like most others, I've followed this thread for over a year. For the architect(s) of an awesome device to answer the in-depth questions is unbelievable.

You two have shown that true OEM's do want to make a difference. Nice Job.

Late!


----------



## VP Electricity

bikinpunk said:


> Andy's addressed this somewhat already.
> 
> The bottom line, imo, is the placement between the tweeter and the mid. Lobing; here's some info.
> You'll want to keep them no more than a few inches apart if you're crossing high (2k+). Again, lobing.
> 
> Otherwise, you'll probably be fine.


The one thing I would add to this is that you have two areas of potential response to your question:

- MS-8-specific benefits

- The benefits you get from doing it anyway

I'm less sanguine about using the MS-8 amp to run tweeters, because I tend to use low crossover points and there are some models that say that tweeters need just as much power as everything else, especially in that situation.

But you could TRY it that way, with the MS-8, and test out the benefits. Me personally, I remember that Andy said that each channel has 8 opportunities to fix problems (I'm paraphrasing from the post where he provided a workable definition of "biquads"). So I would prefer to have tweeters on one channel and mids on another, just so I don't run out of opportunity


----------



## n_olympios

Scooter-Man said:


> I've followed this thread for over a year.


Just a year? What took you so long to start? :laugh:


----------



## CraigE

bikinpunk said:


> IOW, unless you have a highly sensative tweeter, where it's output level is close to that of your other drivers powered off 100w, you're shooting yourself in the foot by trying to use the ms-8's internal amp to power anything if everything else is powered externally.


I'm running a 3 1/2" JBL coax, for center, with the MS-8 internal amp.
3 way fronts, sides, and sub use 7 channels of external amplification.
I was one channel short (of ext. amplification), so I gave it a try.
It seems fine so far.
On Saturday I got my best score to date in MECA Street Class, 83.5


----------



## BigRed

Craig, your car sounds awesome man....good job on Saturday. Its amazing what good speakers, decent speaker locations, and 1.5 minutes of tuning can do 

Its so easy now to get a car to sound good, even a blind guy could do it....and he did on Saturday  (inside joke)

If you like spending thousands of dollars on changing equipment like speakers, amps, and head units, as well as weeks, months, or years tuning to get good sound in your vehicle....then the MS-8 is not for you


----------



## Buzzman

BigRed said:


> . . . If you like spending thousands of dollars on changing equipment like speakers, amps, and head units, as well as weeks, months, or years tuning to get good sound in your vehicle....then the MS-8 is not for you


Jim, if you are telling us that you won't be changing speakers, amps and head units now, I don't believe you, especially now that you have all this free time due to the MS-8 :laugh:


----------



## SSSnake

First, thanks to Andy, Adam, and the entire JBL team. The MS-8 really seems to be a nice piece (limited play time so far) and was long overdue for the car audio world.

Andy,

Can you discuss speaker placement, power levels, and bandwidths and their effect on the final MS-8 tune. Specifically:

Will longer pathlengths for mid and midbass drivers contribute to better imaging (assuming optimal mounting/install for both)?

I assume that output capabilities for all front channels (above the center channel hi pass) should be approximately the same. Is this a good assumption?

Will rear channel speakers in the rear deck outperform (in terms of imaging) rear channel speakers in the rear doors?

What are the power requirements for the rear channels (are they the same as the fronts or will lower output power levels work)?

What is the target bandwidth for the center channel (I am assuming more is better)?

Some of these may have been previously answered (I could have sworn the last one was) but I have been having a tough time finding answers. I apologize if these are redundant but I beleive the answers would likely contribute to the community's understanding of the MS-8. 

Thanks

Charles


----------



## Ovalevader

Is the ms8 going to run the same using just the front pre amp inputs from my car, or should I just run the front and rear?


----------



## kkant

Ovalevader said:


> Is the ms8 going to run the same using just the front pre amp inputs from my car, or should I just run the front and rear?


Use just the fronts.


----------



## wadejg

SSSnake said:


> First, thanks to Andy, Adam, and the entire JBL team. The MS-8 really seems to be a nice piece (limited play time so far) and was long overdue for the car audio world.
> 
> Andy,
> 
> Can you discuss speaker placement, power levels, and bandwidths and their effect on the final MS-8 tune. Specifically:
> 
> Will longer pathlengths for mid and midbass drivers contribute to better imaging (assuming optimal mounting/install for both)?
> 
> I assume that output capabilities for all front channels (above the center channel hi pass) should be approximately the same. Is this a good assumption?
> 
> Will rear channel speakers in the rear deck outperform (in terms of imaging) rear channel speakers in the rear doors?
> 
> What are the power requirements for the rear channels (are they the same as the fronts or will lower output power levels work)?
> 
> What is the target bandwidth for the center channel (I am assuming more is better)?
> 
> Some of these may have been previously answered (I could have sworn the last one was) but I have been having a tough time finding answers. I apologize if these are redundant but I beleive the answers would likely contribute to the community's understanding of the MS-8.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Charles


Great questions, all of which I also have. (Along with whether there is a major advantage of going active in the front main channels)

Andy, what would be nice is a relatively typical install designed to optimize the MS8 performance and abilities to correct for problems. How close should drivers be to each other? Kick panels? Doors? Pillars? Active vs passive. Center channel single driver full range vs coax vs component. etc etc etc.

Thanks,
Justin


----------



## BigRed

Buzzman said:


> Jim, if you are telling us that you won't be changing speakers, amps and head units now, I don't believe you, especially now that you have all this free time due to the MS-8 :laugh:


lol....good one Don!!


----------



## rockinridgeline

Knowing that Andy is up to his eyeballs with this product launch I thought I would throw out some answers. I think most of your questions can be answered based on some common knowledge. 



SSSnake said:


> First, thanks to Andy, Adam, and the entire JBL team. The MS-8 really seems to be a nice piece (limited play time so far) and was long overdue for the car audio world.
> 
> Andy,
> 
> Can you discuss speaker placement, power levels, and bandwidths and their effect on the final MS-8 tune. Specifically:
> 
> Will longer pathlengths for mid and midbass drivers contribute to better imaging (assuming optimal mounting/install for both)?
> 
> A: That goes without saying. The MS-8 can only do so much. The less it has to correct with processing and filters the more likely you are to have good sound.
> 
> I assume that output capabilities for all front channels (above the center channel hi pass) should be approximately the same. Is this a good assumption?
> 
> A: you are correct
> 
> Will rear channel speakers in the rear deck outperform (in terms of imaging) rear channel speakers in the rear doors?
> 
> A: Likely, because of the difference in PLD and power response.
> 
> What are the power requirements for the rear channels (are they the same as the fronts or will lower output power levels work)?
> 
> A: Lower output will work of course. The MS-8 doesn't shift the stage from the front to the rear, but uses the rear for envelopment. The power requirement will be much less.
> 
> What is the target bandwidth for the center channel (I am assuming more is better)?
> 
> Some of these may have been previously answered (I could have sworn the last one was) but I have been having a tough time finding answers. I apologize if these are redundant but I beleive the answers would likely contribute to the community's understanding of the MS-8.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Charles


----------



## rockondon

CraigE BigRed and anybody else that has a small center channel [as compared to the front L n R ]

Help me out here ,I know Andy says better to use a center.
He also leans to not having a large size difference between L-C-R like 8in
midbass and 3in centers.

How do you feel its working out for you.??

Because in my thinking. With the way the MS8 redirects the musical content between the fronts. I would think you need a stronger center able to play close to what the left n right can do. More like at least a 5.25 if you are using 8s in front. [Think the recommended setup for F-1 stuff. More like 3 equal sets in front.]


----------



## BigRed

my experience has been as long as you cross the mids (L,C,R) low enough, there are no issues. 

I believe Craig is crossing his at 270hz, and I'm crossing mine at 160hz. my staging scores were virtually perfect at the MECA competition this last Saturday.

Kudos to the MS-8


----------



## SSSnake

I'm hoping to get a pair of scan 15Ws in the center channel with AE TD6Hs in the kicks all with Vifa D26s for tweets. The fall back position is a single 15W in the center.


----------



## thehatedguy

I'm looking at a JBL 2105H and a Beyma CP21/f in the center. Back up plan is an ID xS57 since it will get the most cone area and play low.


----------



## kkant

SSSnake said:


> I'm hoping to get a pair of scan 15Ws in the center channel with AE TD6Hs in the kicks all with Vifa D26s for tweets. The fall back position is a single 15W in the center.


I plan on a single 15w in the center as well. Prolly crossed at 200 to keep up with the 18w's in the doors.


----------



## BigRed

all 3 of the above installations should work great


----------



## rockondon

Its looking more n more like i need a bigger hole in my dash. lol
Now to convince her it will sound better.:argue:


----------



## thehatedguy

I'm going down to 80 on the center if using the xS57 and it doesn't vibrate the dash apart.


----------



## Mic10is

thehatedguy said:


> I'm going down to 80 on the center if using the xS57 and it doesn't vibrate the dash apart.


I have a 10 up front that says that isnt neccessary


----------



## thehatedguy

Later on, I will probably go with a BMS 5CN140 in the center and 8C250s for the fronts...cause I know that I will probably never find some dome tweeters that I really love as much as compression drivers.


----------



## raadkins16

thehatedguy said:


> Later on, I will probably go with a BMS 5CN140 in the center and 8C250s for the fronts...cause I know that I will probably never find some dome tweeters that I really love as much as compression drivers.


This would all be going into an IS?

Wow, I need pics of this when that begins!


----------



## SSSnake

> Later on, I will probably go with a BMS 5CN140 in the center and 8C250s for the fronts...cause I know that I will probably never find some dome tweeters that I really love as much as compression drivers.


Dude you are flat evil. I had convinced myself that there was NO way to fit a decent sized cone and compression driver in the center channel... Decisions, decisions, decisions...


----------



## thehatedguy

Yeah, going into my IS300.

Well being a high efficiency type guy, I know there are only a few dome tweeters that I can live with...and buy the time I buy one for the center, I've pretty much spent the amount the BMS 5" coax would cost. The only thing is that the BMS is a 16 ohm driver. The BMS 5 is about $215 from Assistance Audio and the ceramic 8s are a little cheaper. Would still have to make crossovers for them.

Beyma has a 5 and 6" coax with a true horn and compression driver on them...but they are EXPENSIVE, and I haven't had much luck finding a deal on them.


----------



## CraigE

rockondon said:


> CraigE BigRed and anybody else that has a small center channel [as compared to the front L n R ]
> 
> Help me out here ,I know Andy says better to use a center.
> He also leans to not having a large size difference between L-C-R like 8in
> midbass and 3in centers.
> 
> How do you feel its working out for you.??
> 
> Because in my thinking. With the way the MS8 redirects the musical content between the fronts. I would think you need a stronger center able to play close to what the left n right can do. More like at least a 5.25 if you are using 8s in front. [Think the recommended setup for F-1 stuff. More like 3 equal sets in front.]


With the rears installed;
I tried using a front 2 way left & right (Dyn MW 162, and MD 102) crossed at 2200hz with the 3 1/2" center (coax) HP @ 270hz. The imaging was not good.
I added 3" mids (Peerless 830986) and crossed the MB and the mids @ 270hz, same as the center. Imaging was/is GREAT.
So, I think Big Red is correct.
I will try lowering the Xover points a bit more, and also try to shoehorn a 4" coax into the stock center location, eventually.
For now, I'm just enjoying the music, and not worrying about it.

I started using the MS-8 with 3 way fronts and sub,no center or rears, and it sounded really good. But it is so much better with center and rears.
If there is any way you can do ctr & rears/sides, try it.:2thumbsup:


----------



## ErinH

I'm considering going with rears. I'd have to unbridge my midbass amp to free up 2 more channels and find a way to make my tw/midrange passive to give me the extra channels on the ms8 as I'm using 7 channels right now for front 3way+sub, though.


----------



## designerfh

Question on running rears - im in a Silverado Ext Cab and the rear speakers would actually be closer to me (the left rear would actually be 18" or so from my head) than the fronts. Will that be a prob with the MS8 - im assuming it can time align and attenuate the snot out of them. 

I removed the old 4x6's from the rear doors and sealed them up solid, so I dont want to go tearing into them just to experiment.


----------



## pionkej

bikinpunk said:


> I'm considering going with rears. I'd have to unbridge my midbass amp to free up 2 more channels and find a way to make my tw/midrange passive to give me the extra channels on the ms8 as I'm using 7 channels right now for front 3way+sub, though.


Erin-

Why not use your mini-dsp as a crossover between your tw/midrange? I haven't seen a for sale thread yet so I assume you still have it. Most people want $100+ for a quality crossover, and with the mini-dsp you can use it as just a crossover, but you then have variable crossover points/slopes. You can try different settings and since the MS-8 seems to make the tuning part easy, run auto-tune after your done (or just note what the MS-8 already did by unhooking the midrange and checking the tweeter crossover point/slope with your RTA--match that with the mini-dsp--add rears--run auto-tune--done).


----------



## CraigE

designerfh said:


> Question on running rears - im in a Silverado Ext Cab and the rear speakers would actually be closer to me (the left rear would actually be 18" or so from my head) than the fronts. Will that be a prob with the MS8 - im assuming it can time align and attenuate the snot out of them.
> 
> I removed the old 4x6's from the rear doors and sealed them up solid, so I dont want to go tearing into them just to experiment.


 The rear Corvette stock locations are located about shoulder blade height, and with the driver's seat all the way down and back the measurement from center of head to:
Left rear/side = 18"
Right rear/side =42"


----------



## designerfh

Sweet, thanks Craig.


----------



## 89grand

I've got a few questions. I'm thinking about getting an MS-8.

It would be added to my stock system, at first with just a sub and center channel added. Here's the stock set up:
3.5" on the top corners of the dash.
6x9 woofers in the front doors
6x9 full range in the rear.

I would keep the door 6x9 midbass and rear 6x9 full range for now, and a sub and swap out the 3.5 full range speakers in the dash for 4" coaxials (that's as big as I can go, and even that requires minor cutting). I would need to cut the dash for a center speaker. I looks like I may be able to squeeze something slightly bigger than the 4", so would there be an advantage to using a 5.25" as a center while the l/r dash speakers are 4"?

In other words, should ideally all the top dash speakers be the same size and use the same crossover point, or is it an better to use a larger center, with a lower crossover point, if I can fit a 5.25 in the center?


----------



## t3sn4f2

89grand said:


> I've got a few questions. I'm thinking about getting an MS-8.
> 
> It would be added to my stock system, at first with just a sub and center channel added. Here's the stock set up:
> 3.5" on the top corners of the dash.
> 6x9 woofers in the front doors
> 6x9 full range in the rear.
> 
> I would keep the door 6x9 midbass and rear 6x9 full range for now, and a sub and swap out the 3.5 full range speakers in the dash for 4" coaxials (that's as big as I can go, and even that requires minor cutting). I would need to cut the dash for a center speaker. I looks like I may be able to squeeze something slightly bigger than the 4", so would there be an advantage to using a 5.25" as a center while the l/r dash speakers are 4"?
> 
> In other words, should ideally all the top dash speakers be the same size and use the same crossover point, or is it an better to use a larger center, with a lower crossover point, if I can fit a 5.25 in the center?


For both seats or just the driver?


----------



## 89grand

t3sn4f2 said:


> For both seats or just the driver?


Do you mean how would the MS-8 be set up, optimized for the driver or both seats?

If so, I'd probably run and save both setups, but it would be mainly done for drivers seat.


----------



## michaelsil1

I wish I could put a full range driver on top of my dash (1998 Toyota Avalon).


----------



## t3sn4f2

89grand said:


> Do you mean how would the MS-8 be set up, optimized for the driver or both seats?
> 
> If so, I'd probably run and save both setups, but it would be mainly done for drivers seat.


Yeah, that's what I meant.

I'll let someone else answer your question with that added detail though. I got one too many beers in me right now.


----------



## Bizarroterl

michaelsil1 said:


> I wish I could put a full range driver on top of my dash (1998 Toyota Avalon).


I wish I could do the same for my 09 Taco.


----------



## 89grand

t3sn4f2 said:


> Yeah, that's what I meant.
> 
> I'll let someone else answer your question with that added detail though. I got one too many beers in me right now.


I've given drunken advice on this forum numerous times.:laugh:


----------



## doitor

michaelsil1 said:


> I wish I could put a full range driver on top of my dash (1998 Toyota Avalon).





Bizarroterl said:


> I wish I could do the same for my 09 Taco.


 You two live in Cali.
Just go to Jim's (BigRed) house.
He LOVES airsaws.

J.


----------



## tintbox

89grand said:


> I've given drunken advice on this forum numerous times.:laugh:


Right on. So from what I'm gathering is a center the cat's meow to utilizing the ms-8?


----------



## 89grand

tintbox said:


> Right on. So from what I'm gathering is a center the cat's meow to utilizing the ms-8?


I don't know. I mean it seems designed to run one, although some have had good results without one.


----------



## michaelsil1

doitor said:


> You two live in Cali.
> Just go to Jim's (BigRed) house.
> He LOVES airsaws.
> 
> J.


I go over to Jim's house all the time. I can't get a Driver up there unless I want to give up my Air Vents. :mean:


----------



## CraigE

t3sn4f2 said:


> Yeah, that's what I meant.
> 
> I'll let someone else answer your question with that added detail though. I got one too many beers in me right now.


Too Funny.. ROTFL


----------



## trigg007

t3sn4f2 said:


> I got one too many beers in me right now.


Hmmm...no beer; Time for some George Dickel


Anybody running MS8 with Horns yet & if so how bout some feedback, please


----------



## Shazzz

89grand said:


> I've given drunken advice on this forum numerous times.:laugh:


So that means you must always be drunk :laugh:


----------



## rawdawg

michaelsil1 said:


> I go over to Jim's house all the time. I can't get a Driver up there unless I want to give up my Air Vents. :mean:


Air is completely over rated..

Have you considered an Alpine SBS-05DC? I've heard it in action and it seems to work pretty well considering it looking like some Chinese cast off computer speaker thingy.


----------



## BigRed

Michael, you can get a full range driver above your dash, you just don't want to. A pillars have nothing to do with eliminating air vents


----------



## ErinH

FWIW, I did some testing this weekend.
I swapped 2 different pair of tweeters in my car and tried them both on and off axis. After each swap/reposition, I re-ran the ms8 setup. Crossover points stayed the same; I just re-ran the acoustic calibration. 
The ideas that the ms8 will cause every car to sound the same was proven false. The car sounded different each time. Most notably between the speakers used. Not so much between the aiming of them. And I don't need blind testing to hear the difference in top end detail... we're talking obvious differences here. And the overall curve is still the same; but the results I obtained were still different from driver to driver. Now, tonality? I haven’t proven that because I haven’t tested different mids (I don’t really attribute tonality cues to a tweeter in most cases… maybe I’m wrong but that’s just me). 

Furthermore, my friend had his tweets in the sails. I listened to it the other day and there was pull to the left and what sounded like some phase issues going on. I attributed it to location, somewhat, but mostly the fact that 1/3 the diameter was being blocked by the tiny factory tweeter hole in his g37. I suggested he put them in the pillars to see if it helps. He said the center is now where it should be and there’s no more phase issues. 

I’ve managed to prove consistency in final output of the same system in the ms8 by doing MANY acoustic cals in the past, so I don’t factor in that as a contributor to the different sound. And, even if you did, the bottom line is that it sounded different each time.
So, as great as the ms8 is, it’s not going to make every car sound just the same, nor is it going to fix a bad install. 

My $.02.


----------



## michaelsil1

BigRed said:


> Michael, you can get a full range driver above your dash, you just don't want to. A pillars have nothing to do with eliminating air vents


That takes money that I wish I had.


----------



## fish

Thanks Erin, that's some good to know info. So speakers/speaker placement DO still matter.


----------



## ErinH

from my testing, I'd say yes.


----------



## kaigoss69

Quick question: Does the MS-8 not have an auto turn-on circuitry when hi-level inputs are connected? Does the switched remote wire need to be connected regardless of input?


----------



## AdamS

kaigoss69 said:


> Quick question: Does the MS-8 not have an auto turn-on circuitry when hi-level inputs are connected? Does the switched remote wire need to be connected regardless of input?


There's no auto turn-on from hi-level inputs.

To turn MS-8 on, you will always need remote IN enabled, regardless of input.


----------



## rain27

To those who were having issues with their ms-8's, did unplugging the mic help?


----------



## kaigoss69

I have the unit set-up as follows in a 2008 BMW 335i:

Ch 1: FL mid/hi (4" mid, 1" tweeter, passive x-over)
Ch 2: FR mid/hi (4" mid, 1" tweeter, passive x-over)
Ch 3: FL woofer (under seat)
Ch 4: FR woofer (under seat)
Ch 5: Center (4" mid, 1" tweeter, passive x-over)
Ch 6: RL mid/hi (4" mid, 1" tweeter, rear shelf, passive x-over)
Ch 7: RR mid/hi (4" mid, 1" tweeter, rear shelf, passive x-over)

All OEM Logic7 system speakers, all powered by internal amp.

Question: I set-up the front as 2-way (mid/tweeter have external passive x-over), but I was not able to set the high-pass for the mids higher than 100Hz. Is this right? It seems 100Hz is too low for a 4" speaker, especially if you have a midbass that can easily play to 200 Hz.

Also, the 8" woofers under the seats are barely noticeable. I know it's only 18W, but it should be keeping up with the other channels, no?


----------



## xr4tic

After following Andy's advice on turning the sub amp gains down, and then turning them back up after setup, my bass is back, and it sounds good, but I still feel like there is something missing

I have a 5 1/4" Polk component set in the doors, the tweeter is on the a-pillar by the mirrors, and the 5 1/4 is about knee height, using the included passive xover (I think at 4KHz) Distance to my ear is close 34" vs. 35", but the 5 1/4 is definitely off-axis

If I were to use the MS-8 in a 2-way setup would it sound better? I'm thinking it could level correct better, but not sure if it would actually make a difference. I would have to power my rear 5 1/4 coax with the MS-8 though, F/R currently powered with a PPI A404


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## mattyjman

xr4tic said:


> After following Andy's advice on turning the sub amp gains down, and then turning them back up after setup, my bass is back, and it sounds good, but I still feel like there is something missing
> 
> I have a 5 1/4" Polk component set in the doors, the tweeter is on the a-pillar by the mirrors, and the 5 1/4 is about knee height, using the included passive xover (I think at 4KHz) Distance to my ear is close 34" vs. 35", but the 5 1/4 is definitely off-axis
> 
> If I were to use the MS-8 in a 2-way setup would it sound better? I'm thinking it could level correct better, but not sure if it would actually make a difference. I would have to power my rear 5 1/4 coax with the MS-8 though, F/R currently powered with a PPI A404


using those passives and having different path lengths is robbing it of it's abilty to tune each speaker and location differently.... changing things up will most certainly make a difference


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## james2266

mattyjman said:


> using those passives and having different path lengths is robbing it of it's abilty to tune each speaker and location differently.... changing things up will most certainly make a difference


Yes, my suggestion would be active too but a little different than you might have thought. From my readings on this MS-8, I would say run the PPI 2 channels to front midbass and the other two to the rears. Run the tweets off the MS-8 internal power. Tweets require less and 20 w rms to tweets and 50 rms to midbass sounds about right actually. I think I read that it is good to have close power for rears and fronts as the rears can at times be as loud as the front in Logic 7 mode.


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## 89grand

kaigoss69 said:


> I have the unit set-up as follows in a 2008 BMW 335i:
> 
> Ch 1: FL mid/hi (4" mid, 1" tweeter, passive x-over)
> Ch 2: FR mid/hi (4" mid, 1" tweeter, passive x-over)
> Ch 3: FL woofer (under seat)
> Ch 4: FR woofer (under seat)
> Ch 5: Center (4" mid, 1" tweeter, passive x-over)
> Ch 6: RL mid/hi (4" mid, 1" tweeter, rear shelf, passive x-over)
> Ch 7: RR mid/hi (4" mid, 1" tweeter, rear shelf, passive x-over)
> 
> All OEM Logic7 system speakers, all powered by internal amp.
> 
> Question: I set-up the front as 2-way (mid/tweeter have external passive x-over), but I was not able to set the high-pass for the mids higher than 100Hz. Is this right? It seems 100Hz is too low for a 4" speaker, especially if you have a midbass that can easily play to 200 Hz.
> 
> Also, the 8" woofers under the seats are barely noticeable. I know it's only 18W, but it should be keeping up with the other channels, no?



Reading the manual, it seems if you chose "1 way" as the speaker configuration, which it reads like you should do that with a coaxial or component set using the passive crossover (at least at first it looks like you should do that, until you read further), you can only go up to 100hz in the 1 way config. 1 way to me looks like it's meant for a system that does not have a separate midbass which is why you can go no higher than 100hz as it's referred to as subsonic filter, not highpass, but you do have separate midbass drivers.

I think you should set it up as "2 way" then you can set the crossover point between the under seat mid bass and 4" components from anywhere between 100hz-10khz.


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## rexroadj

I am on board! They just showed up on my jbl accomodations list today!!!!! Ordered a few of them!


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## kaigoss69

89grand said:


> Reading the manual, it seems if you chose "1 way" as the speaker configuration, which it reads like you should do that with a coaxial or component set using the passive crossover (at least at first it looks like you should do that, until you read further), you can only go up to 100hz in the 1 way config. 1 way to me looks like it's meant for a system that does not have a separate midbass which is why you can go no higher than 100hz as it's referred to as subsonic filter, not highpass, but you do have separate midbass drivers.
> 
> I think you should set it up as "2 way" then you can set the crossover point between the under seat mid bass and 4" components from anywhere between 100hz-10khz.


Nope, I chose 2-way, but without any subs. I then re-ran the set-up and made the underseat woofers "subs", and that did the trick. I was able to select a x-over point of 150Hz and then there was finally sound coming from under the seats. I'm just not sure about the midbass frequencies coming from those woofers now, since during the calibration there was only one sweep for both "subs".


----------



## AdamS

Debugging Tip of the Day:

If you're getting speaker "break-up" distortion, one thing to try is to pre-equalize the gains on your amplifier going to each driver. 

This way, MS-8 focuses more on the dips and bumps and less on level shifting sections of the spectrum. MS-8 does have gain and attenuation limits, and these can be hit in some cases, causing really odd results.


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## alachua

Should we just be focusing on L/R balance, or on balance between each mid/tweet driver?


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## AdamS

alachua said:


> Should we just be focusing on L/R balance, or on balance between each mid/tweet driver?


For EQ break-up artifacts, just the lo/mid/tweet on a per speaker basis. MS-8 eqs one speaker at a time. For almost all cases we have seen, MS8 handles the entire correction by itself, but we have encountered a case where pre-equalizing the drivers resolved a problem.

If you also level match left/right/sub(+9dB), you'll find you get more digital headroom (can go up to maybe -5 or 0 dB) at the expense of analog headroom.


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## xr4tic

james2266 said:


> Yes, my suggestion would be active too but a little different than you might have thought. From my readings on this MS-8, I would say run the PPI 2 channels to front midbass and the other two to the rears. Run the tweets off the MS-8 internal power. Tweets require less and 20 w rms to tweets and 50 rms to midbass sounds about right actually. I think I read that it is good to have close power for rears and fronts as the rears can at times be as loud as the front in Logic 7 mode.


I thought I read the opposite somewhere in this thread, that it's best to power the mids/tweeters with the same power, unless you have some super-efficient tweeters, or else run the risk of dragging down the rest of the system to their level.


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## AdamS

xr4tic said:


> I thought I read the opposite somewhere in this thread, that it's best to power the mids/tweeters with the same power, unless you have some super-efficient tweeters, or else run the risk of dragging down the rest of the system to their level.


I wasn't giving a rule of thumb, just some advice on how to resolve a particular issue. You will lose some gain in this case. In all liklihood, you would just need to bring the gains a little closer so that the system falls within the range of the max gain/attenuation. And like I said, that isn't common.


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## chadillac3

Well, I had an interesting night last night. Changed up my entire front stage so I could go back to stock door panels and stock speaker locations. For those with an MKV Jetta/Golf/GTI, you'll know that these pretty much suck from a tonal perspective. Not to mention I'm not using what I'd call a great tweeter, a CDT TW-25, in the stock sail panel.

Got them all in and went to tune. Started at -50 dB. Freakin horrible. No staging at all. Barely any volume. Spent about 3 hrs trying different things including adjusting gains at the amps to try and see if I was clipping the mics. Here are my findings:

1. With gains set conservatively on the amps (no, not level matched) around -38 dB ended up working very well. Much more than that, and the image would drift to the left. Much less and the MS-8 didn't work with a damn. I went from -60 dB to -45 dB in 2-3 dB increments and the unit was pretty consistent.

2. At the -35ish to -40 dB range, the unit was very consistent. However, the image was shifted maybe 1.5 inches to the left.

3. By shifting my head a little to the left during the 1st test, I was able to get a centered image. Not as focused as I'd ideally like, but considering the current mounting positions and drivers used, I'm pretty impressed.

4. Tonally it sounds better than it did before; mainly due to a much, much better balance between the midbass and bass now. Still more than ample bass, but with the car moving, it's about perfect.

5. The MS-8 can't fix everything.  But it can sure do a helluva lot. Will probably move to the Seas neos I have sitting around with my custom sail panels to clean up the sound. The TW-25 doesn't do great at higher volumes.

Overall, the MS-8 is pretty amazing. I never thought I'd be able to go back to stock panels again.


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## JoeDirte

I was in the situation Andy's talking about with speaker break up. I was having my mids start to sound broken up in certain frequency range, mostly male vocals. I'm running H-Audio Ebony mids in the stock door location and Fountek FR-88's in the A-pillars. I've been mostly testing at a crossover of 1000Hz.

Once I boosted the gain on the highs (they're less efficient) and/or cut the gains to mids, the breakup problem went away. With such an initial difference in speaker pair SPL, once the correction algorithm was applied, those frequencies were apparently being pushed to clipping/distortion.

Andy can correct anything that I might have misunderstood about the conclusion we reached.

BTW, I've been working with him for about 2 weeks on the issue and he has been great.

I'll prob not do a formal review, but this thing is AMAZING! I was just getting into the RTA side of things and was really getting overwhelmed. With 2 kids, a full time job, and some free-lancing, I started doing the math on how much my time was worth. I think all the tuning I could have mustered would have been in vein. It really will make you wonder how you ever stood listening to your setup before. My advice to anyone who wants to hear one before buying it is to get your checkbook ready.

Thanks, again, Andy.


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## ErinH

I've got some questions about how the ms8 does it's levels settings. Had some very interesting results in my car and a friend's car. 

I'll post back... just making a placeholder here so I don't forget.


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## chadillac3

You know what would be really helpful:

How about some guidelines from JBL as to what levels we need our drivers at.

For example, following setup:

Tweeter: 85 dB with a 6 kHz test tone
Midrange: 85 dB with a 1 kHz test tone
Woofer: 85 dB with a 100 Hz test tone
Sub: 85 dB with a 50 Hz test tone

I have a feeling most of the issues people are experiencing are due to level issues, and the MS-8 seems to be more sensitive to this than I think Andy might have realized.


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## JoeDirte

I did send a suggestion to Adam that, during the pink noise speaker checking part of the input setup, it would be nice to hear a signal played through each channel that I mapped. FL Hi, FR Hi, etc. At least as a double check for your channel/speaker mapping.


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## AAAAAAA

chadillac3 said:


> ...
> Overall, the MS-8 is pretty amazing. I never thought I'd be able to go back to stock panels again.


Are you using a center channel? I beleive Andy said that when using a center channel, stock loations are fine, but I suppose without the center, stock locations won't be ideal.


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## trigg007

^^^I'm sure that would depend on if the stock locations were all door versus dash/door locations. I'm considering going without center, but have the ability to place a 3.5" to 4" driver in far left/right sections of the dash like many others, which _might_ work...


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## ErinH

Quick suggestion for possible update:
Make it so that one can quickly change crossover settings and then jump into acoustic calibration rather than having to go through the entire setup procedure (channel mapping, verification). I’ve been doing a lot of toying around lately with new drivers, etc, and having to go through the entire setup is kind of a pain.

If there’s any way to allow the user to simply adjust the crossovers ‘on the fly’, and then run the acoustic cal again, that would be great.


----------



## JoeDirte

bikinpunk said:


> Quick suggestion for possible update:
> Make it so that one can quickly change crossover settings and then jump into acoustic calibration rather than having to go through the entire setup procedure (channel mapping, verification). I’ve been doing a lot of toying around lately with new drivers, etc, and having to go through the entire setup is kind of a pain.
> 
> If there’s any way to allow the user to simply adjust the crossovers ‘on the fly’, and then run the acoustic cal again, that would be great.


Seconded. I'd love to toy with the crossovers to see how this effected the outcome.


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## ErinH

Alright, I did some more driver swapping tonight in my buddie’s car (he’s a member here so he can chime in if he sees this).

We tried wavecor tweeters, his PPI tweeters, and a set of h-audio trinity’s running full range from 300hz +. We swapped the drivers out, and tried them in different angles, re-running the calibration each time.
Every time, there was a different end result. With the PPI’s, the system was just too harsh and the imaging was crap. The trinities were aimed on-axis for their testing and sounded great. Imaging was much better and center was dead center. The wavecors were crossed at 3000hz and sounded great as well. I won’t get into the things we noticed. The point is that each change of the system resulted in a different system response. I’m not talking ‘critical listening’ differences; I’m talking driver characteristic differences and glaring response differences. Simply swapping tweeters and re-running the setup resulted in a better center image. 


What I’m trying to say here is simple:
*Installation does still play a role in the final output even with the ms-8.* Something I think many people who are using this unit may not realize. (ie: I hooked it up to my system and it didn't sound awesome like you said it would). The ms8 will not, and does not make every system “sound the same”. I thought it would. I experimented and found that to not be the case. It’s up to you to realize your car’s full potential: don’t rely on a processor to do it all. 

It only goes to show that install plays a huge role, no matter what processor you use. The ms8 simply makes it easier on you to hear the differences. You can’t have a shoddy install and expect the ms8 to be the only answer to fixing your problems. You’ll still need to play around with angle and location to see what works best. 

Take advantage of the ms8: use it to experiment. Try things. 
This whole idea of “yea, but you can’t tinker anymore” is _complete_ BS. You can still tinker. I’d argue that it’s now much easier for someone to tinker and realize how the differences in install and drivers affect your system’s response. Because of the ms8, I’ve been able to have more fun with trying new drivers. Back with my old processors, it was much harder because you really had to re-tune everything. I can’t guarantee that the ms8 is going to give me the optimal tune everytime, but I think it sure takes a lot of the guesswork out. So much so, that I’m now switching things, running the setup, listening, taking notes, and switching again. 

To the people who own the ms8: realize and harness its potential! You have a great tool at your disposal. Don’t be complacent… take advantage of this toy to learn and experiment.

-	Erin


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## chadillac3

AAAAAAA said:


> Are you using a center channel? I beleive Andy said that when using a center channel, stock loations are fine, but I suppose without the center, stock locations won't be ideal.


Well, time alignment is time alignment, but yes, I'm certain some positions will be better than others. My major issue with the stock locations had to do with tonality. Almost impossible to get it right. Ask Bing...there's a reason he does door pods on these cars.


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## chadillac3

And I completely argee with bikin's assessment; I just lived it last night. Like I said, it does a LOT, but it can't fix everything.


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## 89grand

89grand said:


> I've got a few questions. I'm thinking about getting an MS-8.
> 
> It would be added to my stock system, at first with just a sub and center channel added. Here's the stock set up:
> 3.5" on the top corners of the dash.
> 6x9 woofers in the front doors
> 6x9 full range in the rear.
> 
> I would keep the door 6x9 midbass and rear 6x9 full range for now, and a sub and swap out the 3.5 full range speakers in the dash for 4" coaxials (that's as big as I can go, and even that requires minor cutting). I would need to cut the dash for a center speaker. I looks like I may be able to squeeze something slightly bigger than the 4", so would there be an advantage to using a 5.25" as a center while the l/r dash speakers are 4"?
> 
> In other words, should ideally all the top dash speakers be the same size and use the same crossover point, or is it an better to use a larger center, with a lower crossover point, if I can fit a 5.25 in the center?


So does anybody have any input on what I asked earlier? It seems to have gotten lost on the last page.


----------



## 14642

OF course it can't fix everything. However, if you're finding huge differences when you switch out drivers, then the differences are most likely due to frequency response differences between drivers and sensitivity differences, which may cause you to adjust the levels of the sweeps. If the "image is crap", then the sweeps are too loud. Even the crappiest speakers should provide a decent image, so long as they cover most of the audible bandwidth. The differences between one driver and another shouldn't be big differences in frequency response, as this is what MS-8 fixes. Non-linear distortion, which includes bottoming, odd order distortion caused by coil out of the gap, and even order distortion caused by suspension non-linearities or dramatically different flux profiles above and below the gap or other stuff may be audible and will be the difference betweenone speaker and another. IF the frequency responses of the speakers vary so much that the differences are outside of the 40-or-so dB that MS-8 has to use in tuning, then those differences mnay be audible as well. VERY high-Q response anomalies may not be EQed either. So, yes, some differences will exist. What makes MS-8 cool is that it eliminates many of the inconsequential differences.


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## chadillac3

Andy...what's the minimum output level needed to get the MS-8 to work correctly? I tried from -60ish dB to -45 dB and it sounded like no t/a was applied with my new setup. But around -40 dB is where I started to get consistent results with obvious t/a being applied and decent output levels.


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## ErinH

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> OF course it can't fix everything. However, if you're finding huge differences when you switch out drivers, then the differences are most likely due to frequency response differences between drivers and sensitivity differences, which may cause you to adjust the levels of the sweeps. If the "image is crap", then the sweeps are too loud. Even the crappiest speakers should provide a decent image, so long as they cover most of the audible bandwidth. The differences between one driver and another shouldn't be big differences in frequency response, as this is what MS-8 fixes. Non-linear distortion, which includes bottoming, odd order distortion caused by coil out of the gap, and even order distortion caused by suspension non-linearities or dramatically different flux profiles above and below the gap or other stuff may be audible and will be the difference betweenone speaker and another. IF the frequency responses of the speakers vary so much that the differences are outside of the 40-or-so dB that MS-8 has to use in tuning, then those differences mnay be audible as well. VERY high-Q response anomalies may not be EQed either. So, yes, some differences will exist. What makes MS-8 cool is that it eliminates many of the inconsequential differences.



Don’t misunderstand me. My main point is simply that differences do exist and that not every variation I’ve thrown, nor every car I’ve listened to with the ms8 sound the same. In my eyes, this is a positive thing. Why? Because for one, you can still feed the desire of those who want to experiment and now they can do so more easily, and two: you can expect that certain characteristics of drivers (namely their IMD/HD) will still play a role in the sound you get. For example: my system still has that ‘warm’ sound to it, that many attribute to the 2nd order distortion of the Scanspeak 12m. Some might not like this, whereas I love it. It’s what makes my system ‘unique’ for me. 

I wasn’t trying to imply that FR differences were ‘big’, but I was saying that they are noticeable. Again, I think this is wonderful. I don’t want my car to sound like everyone else’s and I don’t want certain characteristics of a driver I love to be negated. 

What I want people to realize is that the ms8 can’t fix everything for you. If you’ve got a resonant enclosure you can’t fix that with an auto-tune. If you cross a driver too low you can expect to hear resonance in the cone (I’ve been doing this with various drivers). So, for some who throw the ms8 in and say “hey, why do I have X problem?”, those people need to evaluate their install before placing blame or pulling positives from what the ms8 does. I’ve gotten quite a few pm’s from people asking if I noticed “x”. Well, so far I’ve had nothing but great experiences with the ms8. So, no, I haven’t noticed any problem. But since this is a user setup process and all systems vary, it’s important that we (the user) evaluate our system and think about how we’re going through the setup process. Just as JoeDirte above noted he was able to solve a problem once he did some minor gain adjustments. That’s what I really want people to understand. 

And, again, I hope people really take advantage of this unit. I was talking to my friend yesterday about how great the ms8 is in that it will allow a person to really start doing their own analysis and drawing general conclusions (ie: placing mid in kicks allows for better X but worse Y than placing them in pillars). 

Hope that helps clear up my post.


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## 14642

Erin,
I didn't misunderstand your post. You're right on the money. Like you, I just don't want people thinking, "well, MS-8 didn't fixmy problem, so it must be defective" if the problem is one that can't be fixed by EQ and level matching.


----------



## michaelsil1

89grand said:


> So does anybody have any input on what I asked earlier? It seems to have gotten lost on the last page.


I would think that having all the Mid Range Drivers matched would give a better result.


----------



## ErinH

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Erin,
> I didn't misunderstand your post. You're right on the money. Like you, I just don't want people thinking, "well, MS-8 didn't fixmy problem, so it must be defective" if the problem is one that can't be fixed by EQ and level matching.


cool. 

I've gotten a few PM's about this and I think people are forgetting the basics here: install.


----------



## 14642

Yeah, you can't just throw some drivers in the car in a shoe box or two, hook up MS-8 and expect to get great results. One other thing to remember, especially for DIYers, is that speaker sensitivity makes a big difference in where input sensitivity controls have to be set. I keep writing that setting sensitivity to about 2V onall the amps is righ, but if you choose some midbass that's 93dB at a watt and a meter, a midrange with a giant peak at 2k with a sensitivity rating of 90dB and a tweeter with sensitivity of 82dB, then the gains will have to be set appropriately. 

The car contributes more to the system's frequency response than the speakers do, and the car doesn't change when you replace drivers. Basically, MS-8 has to scale everything to set levels. If your midrange has a 20dB peak at 2k and that's the tallest peak, everything else will be scaled as a result. The window is big, but it's an algorithm. It makes decisions based on a bunch of rules and those rules are written assuming a reasonable system. So long as the system isn't a basket case, MS-8 works great. If your system is a basket case, then it won't. The difference between a basket case with an autotune and a basket case with a toolbox and a tuner, is that the tuner can look at some huge problem and go after a fix that isn't EQ-related, like choosing a different driver, a different location for the driver or a differnt crossover frequency. Of course, MS-8 can't do that. IF it could, we might have named it "Midas". 

IF you're starting from scratch, just build a simple system and put the speakers in the stock locations, especially if you'll have a center channel. If you already have some custom thing going on, you may have to make some adjustments in the way you've managed compromises in the past to get great results with MS-8. Things like line drivers, additional EQs in the signal path, fiber optic signals, mono rear fill, 4-way all-active systems and balanced line connections are all things that may raise compatibility issues. That doesn't make them worng or make MS-8 wrong, it just means they may not work well together. 

I always try to be straight with you guys and one thing I can say for sure is that many of these things that are added as "features" to traditional gear often include outlandish claims of performance enhancement or some other benefit in the interest of distinguishing just another amp from other just-another-amps or just-another-speakers. Most of it has some technical merit, but the merit may never be experienced because the benefit appears outside the audio band, because the benefit overcomes a technical problem that isn't audible (and certainly isn't annoying), or because the benefit is BS but can't be adequately disproven because it's designed to appeal to one's emotions or to dupe you into believing that there is merit by making the signal louder and claiming to make it "better", "more transparent" or my favorite: "effortless". Anthropormorphization is damn difficult to overcome once people are bought in to the hogwash.


----------



## kkant

Merit. Word.


----------



## cymro

I want o buy an MS-8 but not sure how to configure it with my Harman Kardon system.

Andy this is in a landrover lr4 with premium

Thinking:

1 to center
2 channels to (passive) three way in door
2 channels to rear doors
2 channels to rearmost pillars
1 channel to sub

I would run two xd600/6s to power and biamp the front three way and the sub.
would that work (if yes....you have another sale ;-)


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## 14642

Bambi was a cartoon, not a deer.


----------



## ErinH

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yeah, you can't just throw some drivers in the car in a shoe box or two, hook up MS-8 and expect to get great results. One other thing to remember, especially for DIYers, is that speaker sensitivity makes a big difference in where input sensitivity controls have to be set. I keep writing that setting sensitivity to about 2V onall the amps is righ, but if you choose some midbass that's 93dB at a watt and a meter, a midrange with a giant peak at 2k with a sensitivity rating of 90dB and a tweeter with sensitivity of 82dB, then the gains will have to be set appropriately.
> 
> The car contributes more to the system's frequency response than the speakers do, and the car doesn't change when you replace drivers. Basically, MS-8 has to scale everything to set levels. If your midrange has a 20dB peak at 2k and that's the tallest peak, everything else will be scaled as a result. The window is big, but it's an algorithm. It makes decisions based on a bunch of rules and those rules are written assuming a reasonable system.
> .



Yea, one thing that seems to be troublesome for many is gain structure. I actually have been doing some experimenting on my own just to see what effects are had when you do X to amp X. Found some cases where the result was the complete opposite of what I expected. 

I pm’d Adam about how the output levels are set to see if I could make sense of what was going on. 

I do have a general question, and maybe you’d prefer PM… I just don’t want to keep bothering Adam with them, lol…
If the ms-8 is using the loudest driver to set the other output levels by, how do you feel about the potential for clipping signal? 

As you noted, driver sensitivity plays a major role here. It seems the most ‘fool proof’ way of setting the MS8 up is to use some pink noise and level match all drivers by ear the best you can. Otherwise, it seems to me there’s quit the potential for someone to be using a tweeter that is 90dB and a midrange that’s 86dB and running into problems if the gains are set within reason by ear first. Without running the numbers, assuming the ms8 level matches by gaining the other channels up to meet that of the tweeter, it seems there’s potential for you to induce a clipped signal into the midrange by gaining up that level so that it meets the tweeter output. Of course, we all realize that a certain level of clipping/distortion cannot be detected. 

I may be TOTALLY off base here. I’m just curious. Hopefully what I’ve asked/mentioned makes sense because I find it’s hard to gather my thoughts into a post sometimes. 
Seems to me this is one area the end user really needs to pay attention to (level matching by ear before running setup) as the end result might not be as desirable if he doesn’t. Judging by some of the questions/issues others have had, this might be something we really need to pay attention to, just as you’ve iterated in the discussion about driver sensitivity.


----------



## thehatedguy

Durh on my part


----------



## kaigoss69

kaigoss69 said:


> I have the unit set-up as follows in a 2008 BMW 335i:
> 
> Ch 1: FL mid/hi (4" mid, 1" tweeter, passive x-over)
> Ch 2: FR mid/hi (4" mid, 1" tweeter, passive x-over)
> Ch 3: FL woofer (under seat)
> Ch 4: FR woofer (under seat)
> Ch 5: Center (4" mid, 1" tweeter, passive x-over)
> Ch 6: RL mid/hi (4" mid, 1" tweeter, rear shelf, passive x-over)
> Ch 7: RR mid/hi (4" mid, 1" tweeter, rear shelf, passive x-over)
> 
> All OEM Logic7 system speakers, all powered by internal amp.
> 
> Question: I set-up the front as 2-way (mid/tweeter have external passive x-over), but I was not able to set the high-pass for the mids higher than 100Hz. Is this right? It seems 100Hz is too low for a 4" speaker, especially if you have a midbass that can easily play to 200 Hz.
> 
> Also, the 8" woofers under the seats are barely noticeable. I know it's only 18W, but it should be keeping up with the other channels, no?


Andy/Adam:

can you please advise on how I should set this up properly? The set-up is basically a copy of what you guys did with the 325i way back when, with the exception that I'm using the internal amp of the MS-8 to power all channels and that I'm not using a trunk sub. Therefore, the underseat woofers should handle both mid-bass and sub-bass. I re-did the set-up last night calling the underseat woofers "subs", and all other channels "1-way" and set the x-over at 150 Hz for everything, but during calibration there was just one sweep for both "sub" channels so I am not sure the the woofers have been optimized for mid-bass duty. Any advice would be appreciated.


----------



## trigg007

thehatedguy said:


> Durh on my part


What fixed it?? i was going to suggest the "reset" button


----------



## chadillac3

Ok, one happy camper here. Here's what I'm going to say as a summary:

*LEVEL SETTING IS ABSOLUTELY KEY WITH THE MS-8*

As Bikin mentioned, gain structures matter very, very much. You need to get the relative driver levels all fairly close to get this unit to work it's magic. I took a Rat Shack digital SPL meter, c-weighted, fast response, and took MAX levels during sweeps (highest reading during a 1 s increment).

For the first sweep (t/a is set here), all my levels were within a couple dB of each other, around 75 or so dB. I couldn't write them down quickly enough before the next driver was tested, but I watched the screen. At most a 3-4 dB difference. This is with the unit set at -16 dB.

Now, for the 2nd-4th sweeps, here is what I read:

L R S
77 81 90*
77 80 90*
77 80 90*

*meter was peaked out, so probably a couple dB higher based upon my 2nd set of results.

L R S
77 76 89
75 86 90
72 76 89

Now, my vocal staging is absolutely fantastic now, and tonality is that much better. Hard to believe it can sound this good with fairly low end CDT drivers and the stock locations. Wife said it was the best any car of mine has ever sounded.

Now, one issue I have is too much bass, and I'm betting if I jack the gain up on the front stage (sub is already set at minimum) that it'll get just that much better.

For those having issues, I'd highly recommend investing in either SW to do SPL readings or a Ratshack meter. I firmly believe my issue was a relative setting issue rather than clipping the mics.
Unit set to -19 dB


----------



## ErinH

Glad you got it working, man.


----------



## thehatedguy

Display not clicked in all the way.



trigg007 said:


> What fixed it?? i was going to suggest the "reset" button


----------



## ErinH

what was the problem? Might help others if they have the same issue.


----------



## AdamS

bikinpunk said:


> Yea, one thing that seems to be troublesome for many is gain structure. I actually have been doing some experimenting on my own just to see what effects are had when you do X to amp X. Found some cases where the result was the complete opposite of what I expected.
> 
> I pm’d Adam about how the output levels are set to see if I could make sense of what was going on.
> 
> I do have a general question, and maybe you’d prefer PM… I just don’t want to keep bothering Adam with them, lol…
> If the ms-8 is using the loudest driver to set the other output levels by, how do you feel about the potential for clipping signal?
> 
> As you noted, driver sensitivity plays a major role here. It seems the most ‘fool proof’ way of setting the MS8 up is to use some pink noise and level match all drivers by ear the best you can. Otherwise, it seems to me there’s quit the potential for someone to be using a tweeter that is 90dB and a midrange that’s 86dB and running into problems if the gains are set within reason by ear first. Without running the numbers, assuming the ms8 level matches by gaining the other channels up to meet that of the tweeter, it seems there’s potential for you to induce a clipped signal into the midrange by gaining up that level so that it meets the tweeter output. Of course, we all realize that a certain level of clipping/distortion cannot be detected.
> 
> I may be TOTALLY off base here. I’m just curious. Hopefully what I’ve asked/mentioned makes sense because I find it’s hard to gather my thoughts into a post sometimes.
> Seems to me this is one area the end user really needs to pay attention to (level matching by ear before running setup) as the end result might not be as desirable if he doesn’t. Judging by some of the questions/issues others have had, this might be something we really need to pay attention to, just as you’ve iterated in the discussion about driver sensitivity.


FYI - The level is based on the loudest speaker in the 300 Hz to 3KHz range. If the loudest driver is completely in that range, then the level is based on that driver. Otherwise, if your crossover is in between these two numbers, your reference level could be based on 2 or more drivers.


----------



## ErinH

Thanks for the clarification. That's really good to know. 



Edit: BTW, thanks for answering all my questions. I can understand you wanting to bash the screen with all the ms-8 questions from me alone. I really like understanding what it does, at least from a top level view. It helps me to troubleshoot and have understanding of things I could do to tweak the system a bit further.


----------



## thehatedguy

Well I was getting "Please Wait" forever.

So in my trouble shooting process, I had a RCA in the wrong input- I had them top and bottom like I am used to in amps. But that was wrong. Fixed that. In doing so, I unplugged the display from the processor as to not pinch or break off the plug.

Go back, fire it up. Still get "Please wait" message.

What the hell.

It's 105 in the shop where I'm working.

So I go back rest the processor.

Still "Please Wait."

Go read the manual.

Reset again.

"Please Wait"

Go check all of the connections...just visually inspected before.

Push everything making sure they are good.

Click. The display cable to the processor clicked one more place in.

What the hell, go fire it up.

JBL logo appears.

Whew.


----------



## thehatedguy

I have the MS-8 powering the factory fronts and rears...and the IDQ-15 from it's internal amps.

The IDQ-15 being a dual 2 ohm sub, I set out the outputs for 2 subwoofers and ran one output to each voice coil. The fronts and rears are set up as 1 way. Now, I want to add the center and see what this thing can do with the factory door mounted speakers.


----------



## trigg007

thehatedguy said:


> I have the MS-8 powering the factory fronts and rears...and the IDQ-15 from it's internal amps.
> 
> The IDQ-15 being a dual 2 ohm sub, I set out the outputs for 2 subwoofers and ran one output to each voice coil. The fronts and rears are set up as 1 way. Now, I want to add the center and see what this thing can do with the factory door mounted speakers.



sounds like a wicked smart (cost effective) set-up...




bikinpunk said:


> I can understand you wanting to bash the screen with all the ms-8 questions from me alone.


 

It's miller time after 14hrs of staring at a computer


----------



## thehatedguy

I just wanted to see if it would do it. The 15 has been ready to play for months now...the factory amp went last night, and I have been too busy to make a real amp rack for my big amps. So, I went and tried it. I do think I could use a wee bit more power on the sub though.


----------



## thehatedguy

Now after the MS-8 does it's thing, it's not going to make your factory speakers sound like some Revelators and Ring Revelator tweeters (or insert your favorite "good" speaker here). Everyone who has heard it so far has commented that it does sound a lot better- even those who don't know audio.

I haven't had any critical listening time on it yet. Probably will do so when I put my little girl to bed and cools off some.


----------



## rockondon

Erin 

So when the heck are you gonna fab a box with a center channel in it.
You have tried every thing else. So why not try the center.?
Just curious if its night n day in your setup.

Or have you ,and I missed it.
If so disregard.:blush:


----------



## rockinridgeline

Want to take a second and share a tip. I have 3 amps and a head unit in the cab of my truck, all of which have fans. I wasn't totally happy with the tonality of the ms8 and I thought that maybe the fan noise was screwing with the calibration. I have been calibrating at -30 because the -20 seemed too loud.

I turned off the HU to kill the fan, then wired the ms8 to stay on while the HU was off. I muffled the noise from my fans and ran calibration.

This made a huge difference in tonality. I was already very impressed with the staging from the ms8 tune, but wasn't totally happen with the tonality. Now I have both!

So figure out a way to get rid of fan noise in the car if you are not calibrating at a high volume level. Cheers!


----------



## thehatedguy

Rigged up a center little bit a go. Pretty impressive...but you really want the center to go as low as possible IMO.


----------



## BigRed

Don't put the center channel out of phase......Word!


----------



## thehatedguy

Jim, after rigging up a center all I can say is that I understand where you have been coming from.


----------



## raadkins16

thehatedguy said:


> Rigged up a center little bit a go. Pretty impressive...but you really want the center to go as low as possible IMO.


Did you put it on the little shelf in the IS? When you plan to permanently mount a center channel speaker in there, will it fire straight up, or recess in there and angle into the car a bit?


----------



## thehatedguy

I took that out and just wrapped an old speaker in a towel and stuck it up there...then high passed it at 250 just to be safe.

But when I put one in there for good, it will be firing straight into the car, if it is angled up, it will only be a few degrees. This is the only good thing Toyota did pertaining to a stereo in this car. Well and a large ski pass opening. If you wanted a great car for a stereo, a 3 series BMW is a much better starting point.


----------



## BigRed

^^ I figured you might agree with the center  the steering algorithm is quite good. much better than PLII in my opinion.


----------



## JoeDirte

thehatedguy said:


> Well I was getting "Please Wait" forever.
> 
> So in my trouble shooting process, I had a RCA in the wrong input- I had them top and bottom like I am used to in amps. But that was wrong. Fixed that. In doing so, I unplugged the display from the processor as to not pinch or break off the plug.
> 
> Go back, fire it up. Still get "Please wait" message.
> 
> What the hell.
> 
> It's 105 in the shop where I'm working.
> 
> So I go back rest the processor.
> 
> Still "Please Wait."
> 
> Go read the manual.
> 
> Reset again.
> 
> "Please Wait"
> 
> Go check all of the connections...just visually inspected before.
> 
> Push everything making sure they are good.
> 
> Click. The display cable to the processor clicked one more place in.
> 
> What the hell, go fire it up.
> 
> JBL logo appears.
> 
> Whew.


I had this exact problem the very first time I fired it up. Panic for about 30 minutes.


----------



## raadkins16

thehatedguy said:


> I took that out and just wrapped an old speaker in a towel and stuck it up there...then high passed it at 250 just to be safe.
> 
> But when I put one in there for good, it will be firing straight into the car, if it is angled up, it will only be a few degrees. This is the only good thing Toyota did pertaining to a stereo in this car. Well and a large ski pass opening. If you wanted a great car for a stereo, a 3 series BMW is a much better starting point.


I want to see pics when this is done!

Are you going to be trying to put midranges in the kicks? Drivers side kick area sucks for room in the IS.. I wonder if anyone is running 2 way, midbasses in the doors, tweeters in apillars, and a center channel speaker without a midrange added in and had good results?


----------



## thehatedguy

Well, there is a couple ways to do midbasses in the IS300.

Doors. But I hate doors...and mine has a resonance that I can't get rid of even though it's coated with Second Skin products.

The kicks. Yeap, both sides have massive fuse blocks in them. If you extend the harness going to the bottom, you can move the fuse blocks pretty easy. Once the factory amp is out on the right side and the wires are extended (I already did this side), the whole fuse block will slide straight up to where the factory amp used to be. There is a similar cavity on the driver's side too.

The floor. Right where the dead pedal is at there is a rather large and deep cavity there that is mainly single layer sheet metal. I have steel baffles made for 8s to go there. You can drop a pretty hefty 8 on each side (think how Big Red's are).

If you wanted to go balls out with a 3 way front, some 8s, 5.25s, and tweeters would all fit up there with some work.

For the center, just depends on how much you want it to be seen. If you want to keep everything at/below the factory height, you have a 5x9" hole to work with back in there. You can do a round 6, but it would either stick up some or would be aimed more at the rear view mirror. You could get a 5.25/large format tweeter in there and have it fire straight into the car, or you could do a 5x7 coax and get a larger cone in there.


----------



## VP Electricity

wadejg said:


> Great questions, all of which I also have. (Along with whether there is a major advantage of going active in the front main channels)


Having messed with this, and having some experience on the manufacturer side...

The main advantages of going active on the front channels are the advantages you would get in doing so WITHOUT an MS-8 - doing so WITH an MS-8 confers no unique benefit, other than...

Andy has stated that the DSP is set up so that each channel has 8 opportunities to change and fix the signal, and chooses what to do based on an algorithm. I don't know how many changes get made per channel, and I know I've never used all 10 parametric bands in my Zapco gear on a single tweeter... but there is the theoretical situation where you need 9 fixes and one falls off the list of 8, because the two drivers share an MS-8 channel. I assign this a very low probability, especially with good aftermarket systems (as opposed to OEM drivers). 





wadejg said:


> Andy, what would be nice is a relatively typical install designed to optimize the MS8 performance and abilities to correct for problems. How close should drivers be to each other? Kick panels? Doors? Pillars? Active vs passive. Center channel single driver full range vs coax vs component. etc etc etc.


If I were working for JBL, I would avoid answering any question like that. From a technical POV, they may have had an idealized model in mind, but as long as the product will yield good results with most OEM system layouts, they shouldn't artficially limit sales by giving the field the sort of information you are asking for, and then have someone NOT buy the product because it didn't fit this "optimal" use case, but would have worked fine anyway. 

If you've got 8 opportunities per channel, in amplititude and in time, you can do a lot. 

If you wanna hear one of these, I will probably put it back in this weekend...


----------



## raadkins16

thehatedguy said:


> Well, there is a couple ways to do midbasses in the IS300.
> 
> Doors. But I hate doors...and mine has a resonance that I can't get rid of even though it's coated with Second Skin products.
> 
> The kicks. Yeap, both sides have massive fuse blocks in them. If you extend the harness going to the bottom, you can move the fuse blocks pretty easy. Once the factory amp is out on the right side and the wires are extended (I already did this side), the whole fuse block will slide straight up to where the factory amp used to be. There is a similar cavity on the driver's side too.
> 
> The floor. Right where the dead pedal is at there is a rather large and deep cavity there that is mainly single layer sheet metal. I have steel baffles made for 8s to go there. You can drop a pretty hefty 8 on each side (think how Big Red's are).
> 
> If you wanted to go balls out with a 3 way front, some 8s, 5.25s, and tweeters would all fit up there with some work.
> 
> For the center, just depends on how much you want it to be seen. If you want to keep everything at/below the factory height, you have a 5x9" hole to work with back in there. You can do a round 6, but it would either stick up some or would be aimed more at the rear view mirror. You could get a 5.25/large format tweeter in there and have it fire straight into the car, or you could do a 5x7 coax and get a larger cone in there.


Thanks for the info. The doors are working well for me. I had some resonance too but after trimming the plastic that is around the speaker off it went away. So I think I will stick with the doors for the midbass. I am trying to put a 4 inch midrange (the 4 inch PRS) IB down there, and though I could remove the deadpedal and put a plate there and mount it IB as it seems to do best IB according to the testing I have read. I might put a small format tweeter down there as well and see how it does before I modify apillars for the tweeters. For the center channel, what about the CTX 5x7? Website shows that it can play down to 55, so even if I ran it from 80 and up from there I would hopefully be fine. They are a lot cheaper than a set of XS 57s.. although, if you have two XS 57's and need a buyer for the other one let me know .


----------



## VP Electricity

raadkins16 said:


> For the center channel, what about the CTX 5x7? Website shows that it can play down to 55, so even if I ran it from 80 and up from there I would hopefully be fine. They are a lot cheaper than a set of XS 57s.. although, if you have two XS 57's and need a buyer for the other one let me know .


For the center channel, if you're doing 4" mids, hasn't Andy indicated that you should do a 4" in the center? (You got room to park a nice tweeter next to it, instead of the one on a coax...)


----------



## raadkins16

VP Electricity said:


> For the center channel, if you're doing 4" mids, hasn't Andy indicated that you should do a 4" in the center? (You got room to park a nice tweeter next to it, instead of the one on a coax...)


He probably did mention it, and it got lost in my mind within the other 140 pages I have read on tips that he has . I will research and see what he said.


----------



## VP Electricity

raadkins16 said:


> He probably did mention it, and it got lost in my mind within the other 140 pages I have read on tips that he has . I will research and see what he said.


Yes, I made this a while back (see attachment)


----------



## trigg007

VP Electricity said:


> Yes, I made this a while back (see attachment)


Thanks for sharing; Mine is a similar copy/paste job of Andy's comments geared more towards actual set-up tips versus the basic info.


----------



## VP Electricity

trigg007 said:


> Thanks for sharing; Mine is a similar copy/paste job of Andy's comments geared more towards actual set-up tips versus the basic info.


Most of those came after I made this...it needs updating to cover that.


----------



## thehatedguy

What's wrong with using a good coax? One that has a proper crossover and a proper tweeter?



VP Electricity said:


> For the center channel, if you're doing 4" mids, hasn't Andy indicated that you should do a 4" in the center? (You got room to park a nice tweeter next to it, instead of the one on a coax...)


----------



## VP Electricity

thehatedguy said:


> What's wrong with using a good coax? One that has a proper crossover and a proper tweeter?


Most coaxes don't have either, as you know. While there are a few good ones, in this application, the info indicates that you'd be better off with a matching 4 and tweeter.


----------



## thehatedguy

In our cars, you could do a 5.25 and a large format tweeter...or a 5x7 coax still. You could get a nice coax and put whatever tweeter you want on it. The ID xS line lets you coax mount or separate mount the tweeters. They are pretty efficient, come in an attractive (for me) form factor, shallow depth, and have great customer service support.

It also doesn't hurt that I am on the ID Team either.


----------



## VP Electricity

thehatedguy said:


> It also doesn't hurt that I am on the ID Team either.


No ****.


----------



## michaelkingdom

Hi Andy / Everyone,


My system is set up as follows:

Front:
Infinity Perfect component set using passive crossover
Image Dynamics 6x9 mid bass
Infinity Kappa Four amp

Back:
Infinity 6x9 in rear
Phoenix Gold 300.1 4 channel amp

Trunk:
JL 13W7 sub
JL 1000/1v2 amp


My questions:

1. My Infinity Perfect tweeters are in the sail panels and the midrange speaker is in the kick panel. Am I making a grave time alignment mistake by not having the tweeter in the kick panel as well (while using the passive crossover)?

2. My installer set up the system so that two outputs on the MS-8 were for sub woofers and then ran those lines to the L/R inputs on the sub amp. Is this beneficial in any way or will one line suffice?


----------



## CraigE

I haven't found a good spot to mount the display yet.
So I ordered an Akron Gooseneck Cup Holder Mount.
Had to fab an adaptor plate from a 3/8" cutting board.


----------



## t3sn4f2

CraigE said:


> I haven't found a good spot to mount the display yet.
> So I ordered an Akron Gooseneck Cup Holder Mount.
> Had to fab an adaptor plate from a 3/8" cutting board.
> View attachment 19403
> 
> View attachment 19404


Looks good, nice job.


----------



## thehatedguy

I think that I have fallen in love with car audio all over again.


----------



## CraigE

Get a few surround CDs.
"Come On In This House" by Junior Wells is a good one.
You'll be head over heels in love.


----------



## AAAAAAA

ah man I can't wait anymore hehehe.


----------



## kaigoss69

kaigoss69 said:


> Andy/Adam:
> 
> can you please advise on how I should set this up properly? The set-up is basically a copy of what you guys did with the 325i way back when, with the exception that I'm using the internal amp of the MS-8 to power all channels and that I'm not using a trunk sub. Therefore, the underseat woofers should handle both mid-bass and sub-bass. I re-did the set-up last night calling the underseat woofers "subs", and all other channels "1-way" and set the x-over at 150 Hz for everything, but during calibration there was just one sweep for both "sub" channels so I am not sure the the woofers have been optimized for mid-bass duty. Any advice would be appreciated.


Ok ok, so I finally figured it out. When I do a two-way front, the first question during x-over set-up is to set the "high-pass" filter for the fronts. I thought this was the x-over between the woofer and the mid/hi's, but it is actually a subsonic filter...(silly me or a bit confusing???). Now it is working properly.

However, I do have another issue I need help with. I decided I wanted to amp the 8" front mid-bass woofers so I disconnected the speaker wire from the MS-8, hooked it up to my HD600/4, and connected RCAs between the front inputs of the amp and channels 3 and 4 of the MS-8. Re-ran set-up but result is that there is no signal coming from the RCA outputs on channels 3 and 4. I confirmed that the amp is working and speakers are hooked up correctly by hooking my iPod into it. So what gives? Are the RCA outputs no "live" and do they need to be activated in some way? - I did not see any options for that during set-up. Any advice greatly appreciated.


----------



## kaigoss69

thehatedguy said:


> I think that I have fallen in love with car audio all over again.


lol, don't tell your wife/girlfriend but she's the perfect mate: minimum maintenance, maximum output! :laugh:


----------



## andoneward

I have been trying to plan my system for my truck for about a year now by lurking on this forum and have not pulled the trigger on anything because of buying a house and other life requirements. I am glad I waited though since this piece of equipment has come out at the time when I have the funds and inclination to tear into my truck finally!

I just can't stop reading about the MS-8 and completely excited to start my build over the next coming months!!


----------



## BigRed

kaigoss69 said:


> Ok ok, so I finally figured it out. When I do a two-way front, the first question during x-over set-up is to set the "high-pass" filter for the fronts. I thought this was the x-over between the woofer and the mid/hi's, but it is actually a subsonic filter...(silly me or a bit confusing???). Now it is working properly.
> 
> However, I do have another issue I need help with. I decided I wanted to amp the 8" front mid-bass woofers so I disconnected the speaker wire from the MS-8, hooked it up to my HD600/4, and connected RCAs between the front inputs of the amp and channels 3 and 4 of the MS-8. Re-ran set-up but result is that there is no signal coming from the RCA outputs on channels 3 and 4. I confirmed that the amp is working and speakers are hooked up correctly by hooking my iPod into it. So what gives? Are the RCA outputs no "live" and do they need to be activated in some way? - I did not see any options for that during set-up. Any advice greatly appreciated.


re-run the setup. verify left and right are working before doing the sweeps, and that the midbass's are in fact playing


----------



## kaigoss69

BigRed said:


> re-run the setup. verify left and right are working before doing the sweeps, and that the midbass's are in fact playing


I did, twice. Put my ear on the grilles while the pink noise was playing. They are not playing when connected through RCAs, but work just fine when connected directly from MS-8.


----------



## quality_sound

Didn't Andy say subs had to be on channels 7/8 and that they needed their own input as well?


----------



## CraigE

AdamS said:


> There is no such thing as a 'rear channel', 'front channel', etc. All used channels must be mapped. Think of them as just channels 1-8 and map them per your system requirements.


This may be applicable.


----------



## kaigoss69

The sub-channel speakers level outputs from the HU or OE amp must be connected to input channels 7 and or 8 on the MS-8 (per the manual), but the outputs can be configured in any order, I believe.


----------



## kaigoss69

My particular issue with the RCA outs has been taken to PM. Let me just say that the entire OEM speaker system (BMW 3-series, Logic 7), driven by the MS-8, sounds absolutely incredible. All I did, as suggested by Andy, is I added a tweeter to the center channel. The front 8" woofers will need some more juice however, that's why I was trying to add an amp.


----------



## kaigoss69

Oh, and no BT echo issue for me!


----------



## kaigoss69

Quick question for Adam or Andy: It was recommended by Andy to connect the BMW rear door mids (4") in parallel to the rear shelf components (4" mids & tweeters). Since the OE speakers are 2ohm, this would essentially result in a nominal 1ohm load for the internal amp. Would this still be OK or should I connect an external amp???


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> Quick question for Adam or Andy: It was recommended by Andy to connect the BMW rear door mids (4") in parallel to the rear shelf components (4" mids & tweeters). Since the OE speakers are 2ohm, this would essentially result in a nominal 1ohm load for the internal amp. Would this still be OK or should I connect an external amp???


It'll probably be OK, since the level of the rears and sides is pretty low. 

Oh, if you PMed your "issue" to Adam, please send it to me--I'm online for a little while.


----------



## ItalynStylion

quality_sound said:


> Didn't Andy say subs had to be on channels 7/8 and that they needed their own input as well?


Wait....what? Missed that memo. None of that sounds right though. Why would it matter?


----------



## 14642

If you're connecting to a factory system that includes a subwoofer and you're connecting the subwoofer output to the input of MS-8, the sub output of the factory system should be connected to MS-8's input 7 or 8. In order for MS-8 to sort out the right and left and mono channels and to remove the factory time alignment, it has to see a high-frequency channel before a low-frequency mono channel as it samples the incoming signals. 

The outputs of MS-8 can be connected in any order or configuration that's supported. That means there have to be right and left front at a minumum and that rears and sides are stereo. Front can be maximum of 3-way...etc...that's all in the manual.


----------



## Technic

kaigoss69 said:


> Quick question for Adam or Andy: It was recommended by Andy to connect the BMW rear door mids (4") *in parallel *to the rear shelf components (4" mids & tweeters). Since the OE speakers are 2ohm, this would essentially result in a nominal 1ohm load for the internal amp. Would this still be OK or should I connect an external amp???


What about connecting them in _series_?


----------



## 14642

Technic said:


> What about connecting them in _series_?


That'll work too.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Technic said:


> What about connecting them in _series_?


Yup, it'll probably result in the same output but at a safer RPM.


----------



## thehatedguy

Andy, are c pillars good spots for the rear sides?

Would it be much different running rear sides and rears vs. running rears only?


----------



## 14642

C pillars are good. If you use sides AND rears, then you'll have access to both side and rear in the setup menu. If you're only running one pair of speakers in the back, you enter those as sides and enter rear as "none". MS-8 knows what to do after that. "Rear" is only available if "Sides" are chosen first.


----------



## thehatedguy

Gotcha.


----------



## kkant

Technic said:


> What about connecting them in _series_?


Might have problems with back EMF...


----------



## kkant

kaigoss69 said:


> Oh, and no BT echo issue for me!


Did you connect the OEM logic7 outputs to the MS8, or did you bypass the OEM processor box?


----------



## kaigoss69

kkant said:


> Did you connect the OEM logic7 outputs to the MS8, or did you bypass the OEM processor box?


I'm using the high level outputs from the L7 amp. The pre-amp signal is fiberoptic MOST, so unless you invest in a very expensive processor, you cannot tap that signal anyways. Besides, Andy recommended using speaker level inputs to reduce noise....and I don't have any.


----------



## kaigoss69

Technic said:


> What about connecting them in _series_?


I believe that could potentially have a negative effect on the overall volume level, since the 4ohm load would require more boost compared to the other 2ohm loads, no?


----------



## Technic

kaigoss69 said:


> I believe that could potentially have a negative effect on the overall volume level, since the 4ohm load would require more boost compared to the other 2ohm loads, no?


Not necessarily... as Andy stated, the rears will not be getting too much power/signal anyways.


----------



## mathematics

damn the post counts needed in order to sell my DSP6 lol

btw, i'm happy with the MS-8


----------



## Gary Mac

Two things, one comment and one question...

1. I had my MS8 installed at a local shop, Creative Car Tunes in Harrisburg (they are great guys if you are in the Central PA area), they are not JBL dealers and have not had the opportunity to install a MS8 yet. So they called JBL with a couple questions about installation in my 08 TLS, JBL told them Andy was on vacation, then about 10 min later, Andy called them back, while he was on vacation to help them out..... I think that is freaking amazing service, his commitment to service has been well documented on this thread, but I felt like this experience was unique given the circumstances. So, thank you.

2. I just tried to run the set up myself, as the shop ran the initial set up when I was not present. I set the cross overs, and set the input selections, then the unit did the test tones for calebration. My question is, was the auto tune done during this phase, or did I miss a step? I was not sure if the CD had to be playing for the auto tune to take place, as the unit asked for me to play the CD in the beginning, than told me to press stop, but never asked me to play it again.

If the auto tune was completed, would the boosts/cuts be visible in the graphic eq after the fact? After running set up, my graphic eq appears flat on the display, I was not sure if the display would visually represent the boosts/cuts that were done with the auto tune.


----------



## kkant

kaigoss69 said:


> I'm using the high level outputs from the L7 amp. The pre-amp signal is fiberoptic MOST, so unless you invest in a very expensive processor, you cannot tap that signal anyways. Besides, Andy recommended using speaker level inputs to reduce noise....and I don't have any.


Hmm... That kind of shoots down my theory. I thought maybe the additional delay inherent in the MS8 was screwing up BT for some people, but since you are adding delay in series after your OEM processor, that must not be it. Or at least not solely it.


----------



## kkant

Technic said:


> Not necessarily... as Andy stated, the rears will not be getting too much power/signal anyways.


Even with a small signal, back-EMF between series-connected speakers could potentially **** things up. I would think. Haven't tried series connections myself, other than coils on DVC woofers.


----------



## kkant

Gary Mac said:


> If the auto tune was completed, would the boosts/cuts be visible in the graphic eq after the fact? After running set up, my graphic eq appears flat on the display, I was not sure if the display would visually represent the boosts/cuts that were done with the auto tune.


This I can answer. The EQ display won't show the actions of the autotune. The display EQ is an additional EQ to be applied after the autotune, to adjust the sound to your taste. The autotune has (I believe) a much more complicated and finer-grained EQ than the 31-band EQ on the display--but JBL is keeping the details of the autotune EQ private.


----------



## AdamS

Gary Mac said:


> Two things, one comment and one question...
> 
> 1. I had my MS8 installed at a local shop, Creative Car Tunes in Harrisburg (they are great guys if you are in the Central PA area), they are not JBL dealers and have not had the opportunity to install a MS8 yet. So they called JBL with a couple questions about installation in my 08 TLS, JBL told them Andy was on vacation, then about 10 min later, Andy called them back, while he was on vacation to help them out..... I think that is freaking amazing service, his commitment to service has been well documented on this thread, but I felt like this experience was unique given the circumstances. So, thank you.
> 
> 2. I just tried to run the set up myself, as the shop ran the initial set up when I was not present. I set the cross overs, and set the input selections, then the unit did the test tones for calebration. My question is, was the auto tune done during this phase, or did I miss a step? I was not sure if the CD had to be playing for the auto tune to take place, as the unit asked for me to play the CD in the beginning, than told me to press stop, but never asked me to play it again.
> 
> If the auto tune was completed, would the boosts/cuts be visible in the graphic eq after the fact? After running set up, my graphic eq appears flat on the display, I was not sure if the display would visually represent the boosts/cuts that were done with the auto tune.


There are 2 different tunes. The CD is for the UnEQ tune of your OE unit, the sweeps are for the Acoustic EQ tune for your car/speakers/position. The CD goes first, then the speaker config/Acoustic tune.


----------



## kaigoss69

kaigoss69 said:


> Quick question for Adam or Andy: It was recommended by Andy to connect the BMW rear door mids (4") in parallel to the rear shelf components (4" mids & tweeters). Since the OE speakers are 2ohm, this would essentially result in a nominal 1ohm load for the internal amp. Would this still be OK or should I connect an external amp???


Since Andy said it would [probably] be OK, I connected the rear door speakers in parallel to the rear deck speakers and it worked great. Overall volume level is about the same, however there was a hint of more "spaciousness" during certain songs.


----------



## Grim0013

Out of curiosity, what approximate level is MS-8 trying to set rears/sides to, relative to the front? What I mean is, if the front is 110 dB, what would it want the rears/sides to be, assuming the power is available? Would the auto-tune be trying to level match the rears/sides the same as the rest, at 110 dB, or would it be targeting something more like, say, 90 dB?


----------



## kaigoss69

Grim0013 said:


> Out of curiosity, what approximate level is MS-8 trying to set rears/sides to, relative to the front? What I mean is, if the front is 110 dB, what would it want the rears/sides to be, assuming the power is available? Would the auto-tune be trying to level match the rears/sides the same as the rest, at 110 dB, or would it be targeting something more like, say, 90 dB?


I just now sat in the back seat (while the processor was set on "front") and I had to put my ear to the left door speaker in order to find out if it was playing at all. So yes, the rear speakers play at a much lower volume than the fronts (when the setting is optimized for the front seat(s)).


----------



## Grim0013

kaigoss69 said:


> I just now sat in the back seat (while the processor was set on "front") and I had to put my ear to the left door speaker in order to find out if it was playing at all. So yes, the rear speakers play at a much lower volume than the fronts (when the setting is optimized for the front seat(s)).


My understanding is that it is possible to have a very large amount of variance in the output of the rears from one song to another, dependent upon how the track was mixed. While most tracks may result in very little output from the rears, I would think there must be some where the rears would be played a fair amount louder. Basically, my intent in asking the question is to figure out what would be the ideal power to feed the rears. 

Assuming the same drivers in the same enclosure, powered by the same amp front and rear, would MS-8 match their levels, or would it end up attenuating the rears? If I wanted everything to be as ideal as possible, would I need the same amount of power for the rears and/or sides, or would they require less? In other words, if I did not want to use the "gain tweaking" method after calibration, if I didn't want to need to "fool" MS-8, what would be the rear output requirements, relative to the front?


----------



## Grim0013

Some more thoughts on the rear/side topic...

I may be wrong, but it seems that running the rears/sides off of internal power, while amping the front and subs, is a fairly common use case. Maybe add some sort of option in setup to compress the rear/side output so that it doesn't cause the volume of the rest of the system to be reduced to match.

I do not have a lot of experience with this sort of thing, but wouldn't compressing the dynamic range of the rears to compensate for lower rear output be a generally better solution than bringing the gain of the rest of the system up after calibration? I think I can better explain what I mean like this:

Front max: 110 dB
Rear max: 90 dB

Assuming we're listening at 110 dB front output:
Track 'x' wants 85 dB from the rears
Track 'y' wants 95 dB from the rears

Let's assume that we dropped the gain on the front amps to reduce their output by 20 dB for calibration, then turned them back up after
Track 'x' gets 65 dB from the rears
Track 'y' gets 75 dB from the rears

If there was a way to tell MS-8 to compress the range of the rears so that we could get:
Track 'x' gets 83 dB from the rears
Track 'y' gets 90 dB from the rears

The idea being that MS-8 would measure the output capabilities of the rears and if they couldn't be brought up to match the front, it would use an algorithm to modify the output of the rears to compensate in a smoother fashion that simply "fooling" MS-8 by playing with gains after calibration, which I don't like the idea of, since I do not have an RTA or anything of the sort to use to make sure the levels are properly matched after making any post-calibration changes.


----------



## kaigoss69

Grim0013 said:


> Some more thoughts on the rear/side topic...
> 
> I may be wrong, but it seems that running the rears/sides off of internal power, while amping the front and subs, is a fairly common use case. Maybe add some sort of option in setup to compress the rear/side output so that it doesn't cause the volume of the rest of the system to be reduced to match.
> 
> I do not have a lot of experience with this sort of thing, but wouldn't compressing the dynamic range of the rears to compensate for lower rear output be a generally better solution than bringing the gain of the rest of the system up after calibration? I think I can better explain what I mean like this:
> 
> Front max: 110 dB
> Rear max: 90 dB
> 
> Assuming we're listening at 110 dB front output:
> Track 'x' wants 85 dB from the rears
> Track 'y' wants 95 dB from the rears
> 
> Let's assume that we dropped the gain on the front amps to reduce their output by 20 dB for calibration, then turned them back up after
> Track 'x' gets 65 dB from the rears
> Track 'y' gets 75 dB from the rears
> 
> If there was a way to tell MS-8 to compress the range of the rears so that we could get:
> Track 'x' gets 83 dB from the rears
> Track 'y' gets 90 dB from the rears
> 
> The idea being that MS-8 would measure the output capabilities of the rears and if they couldn't be brought up to match the front, it would use an algorithm to modify the output of the rears to compensate in a smoother fashion that simply "fooling" MS-8 by playing with gains after calibration, which I don't like the idea of, since I do not have an RTA or anything of the sort to use to make sure the levels are properly matched after making any post-calibration changes.


Wow, I think you're giving this too much thought. How about just trying to amp the fronts and running the rears/side off of MS-8 power? And then, if you still think you could be missing out on some volume in the back, just use the same amount amplification for the rears (nowadays $/w are cheap so it makes little sense to use a less powerful amp for the rears, IMO).


----------



## Gary Mac

AdamS said:


> There are 2 different tunes. The CD is for the UnEQ tune of your OE unit, the sweeps are for the Acoustic EQ tune for your car/speakers/position. The CD goes first, then the speaker config/Acoustic tune.


Perhaps I missed something, it never ran a "tune" with the CD playing - at least I never got a command. Would it only do this if I am using High Level inputs? I am using an OEM HU, however I spliced RCAs to the line level out of my HU, so I have RCA inputs. Would this affect this step of the procedure?


----------



## thehatedguy

Yeah. If using the factory deck in a traditional way, you would run the CD and then the MS-8 would correct anything that needs to be corrected. I have run the input setup though I am using an aftermarket deck...and it goes through a list of things it is checking and fixing. If you've skipped the input setup, then you've never seen it do all of that- since aftermarket decks don't have EQ built into them, there is no reason to run the input setup...but I still did.


----------



## AdamS

Gary Mac said:


> Perhaps I missed something, it never ran a "tune" with the CD playing - at least I never got a command. Would it only do this if I am using High Level inputs? I am using an OEM HU, however I spliced RCAs to the line level out of my HU, so I have RCA inputs. Would this affect this step of the procedure?


If you did a 'Skip Input', then there is no Head unit tune.

If you did 'Continue' instead of Skip input, then it takes you to adjust the level of your head unit. If it says 'OK, OK, OK' then you hit Continue again. Then behind the scenes the DSP does a bunch of work, but all it tells you is "Please Wait...".


----------



## AdamS

Debug Tip of the Day:

Using the Test Menu. I thought I would just publicize it since I have had to give it out to a few of you anyways. We never intended to make this accessible to end users, and you won't find it in the manual. So please only use it if you really need to, and be careful, as there are no crossovers protection your speakers and the volume is not controllable by master volume.

1. Go to the main menu
2. Hold down the left arrow for 2 seconds
3. Hold down the right arrow for 2 seconds
4. Repeat 2 and 3 several times if this doesn't work. It's intentionally a bit difficult to use.
5. Now you have access to a Display Test (for pixels), a pass-thru test (useful for debugging), and Aux test, and a pink noise per channel test called 'Output Diagnostics'

Display Test: just flashes pixels on and off, not really relevant 
Pass-thru: Inputs 1-8 go to outputs 1-8. Make sure your source volume level is way down. The DSP runs at 0 dB during this test and volume control doesn't work here. Don't use this test with a tweeter, as crossovers are also not used here. It's literally pass-thru.
Aux: Aux Input goes to Output 4/8. The other channels are pass-thru. Same precautions apply.
Channel Diagnostics: Pink noise for any channel. Again, no crossovers, no volume control, so turn your amps way down if you plan on using this. You might be able to use this to compare levels if you have some built in crossovers in your amp.

After using this Test Menu, *Do Not* hit back and then Calibration. You need to turn off Remote In and the turn Remote In back on before doing a proper calibration. 

Please PM me if you have any questions, but remember, 0 dB all tests and no crossovers.


----------



## 14642

Sorry. PM box is now empty.


----------



## Grim0013

kaigoss69 said:


> Wow, I think you're giving this too much thought. How about just trying to amp the fronts and running the rears/side off of MS-8 power? And then, if you still think you could be missing out on some volume in the back, just use the same amount amplification for the rears (nowadays $/w are cheap so it makes little sense to use a less powerful amp for the rears, IMO).


I'm sure I am.....I was bored and was thinking about how I'll have to do the setup, and those various small things like that started floating about in the brain box. In reality, yeah, I'm sure it's not a big deal, I was just kinda thinking out loud. Still something I'd kinda like to see though.


----------



## kaigoss69

I ended up hooking up an external amp to the OEM 8" woofers in my BMW, re-ran calibration, and it seems as if the overall volume level has increased quite substantially. So my theory is that the 8" woofers, which are under the seats, received the most gain by the MS-8, since they had to play louder to make up for the unfavorable location, and/or that the remaining channels were attenuated by the MS-8 to level out the overall volume in the car. So if you are using the internal amp, and you are not happy with the volume level, find the "weak link" speaker(s) and put an amp to it/them.


----------



## Grim0013

Hrmmm, maybe it would be a cool feature to add if MS-8 could tell you the output levels of the various channels. That way, one would be able to tell where you had too much/not enough output, and could take appropriate action, like changing around/adding/removing/whatever amps.


----------



## kaigoss69

Grim0013 said:


> Hrmmm, maybe it would be a cool feature to add if MS-8 could tell you the output levels of the various channels. That way, one would be able to tell where you had too much/not enough output, and could take appropriate action, like changing around/adding/removing/whatever amps.


I was thinking the same thing. The hardware is already there, it seems it may just require a software update to be able to do this.


----------



## Grim0013

kaigoss69 said:


> I was thinking the same thing. The hardware is already there, it seems it may just require a software update to be able to do this.


Another thing it would really help with is getting your levels set before running cal. I seem to recall Andy saying that MS-8 has trouble if the levels are too different when it calibrates. I would imagine it wouldn't be a huge deal to have MS-8 compare levels and if they are too different, it could then tell the user to adjust the gains on channels x, y, z by a, b, c in order to bring them within range. Since there have already been a few people where that issue has come up, I think it'd be a very worthwhile addition.


----------



## rawdawg

What would be really nice is a JBL Car Audio Ecosystem, whereby every piece has been mapped out and is automatically set-up according to the response of the car. I'm hoping that's what that sneak peek was all about.


----------



## 14642

rawdawg said:


> What would be really nice is a JBL Car Audio Ecosystem, whereby every piece has been mapped out and is automatically set-up according to the response of the car. I'm hoping that's what that sneak peek was all about.


I don't understand what you mean. Please explain further


----------



## ibanzil

Maybe he means external amps meant to be run and controlled by the ms8?


----------



## trigg007

or Earth Friendly/Green Car Audio


----------



## bhaycraft

Andy,

First Question

I have 2010 Ford Expedition EL with Factory Nav and Bluetooth and Sync system are there any reports with there being a problem doing bluetooth streaming either while using the phone as a phone or say streaming Pandora. Because those options are important to me.

Second Question
will the MS-8 be able to accommodate all my speakers
plan to have 7.1 inch woofer in each front door and tweeter located on the sail of each door. Center will be a 5 1/2 or 6 1/2 mid tweet coax. Each rear door will have 6 1/2 coax and the rear upper D pillars will have somewhere between a 2 inch or maybe up to 4 inch coax if possible as I am getting a pair of D-pillars from a Lincoln Navigator so I can have rear surround or that is my thinking and then I will have one 10 inch JL W3 in the factory location. Would like to run everything active but may have to do some passive with Coax's. What is the best way to hook this up to my MS-8 and get all the advantages. Also will this system be optimal or am I missing something or screwing up something by trying to add the rear surround D pillar speakers. Thanks


----------



## rawdawg

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I don't understand what you mean. Please explain further


I'm sorta' envisioning a JBL head unit, a JBL processor, JBL amps and JBL speakers all wrapped up in JBL interconnects and Harman Kardon wiring. The processor would control/setup everything, the system being essentially turnkey. Kinda' like the Disneyland of Car Audio. You know, the Happiest Place on Earth.

One can always wish upon a star...


----------



## mikey7182

I'd like to see those new tiny amps come out... you know, the ones that are in all the diagrams in the MS-8 manual.  What's the word on those, or did I miss it?


----------



## Grim0013

rawdawg said:


> I'm sorta' envisioning a JBL head unit, a JBL processor, JBL amps and JBL speakers all wrapped up in JBL interconnects and Harman Kardon wiring. The processor would control/setup everything, the system being essentially turnkey. Kinda' like the Disneyland of Car Audio. You know, the Happiest Place on Earth.
> 
> One can always wish upon a star...


Isn't kinda the whole point of MS-8 to be able to make it (relatively) easy to integrate disparate components? It doesn't use any pre-loaded input about your gear. It measures what you have then applies it's 'magic'. And it's that ability to measure that has me thinking it would be well within it's abilities to help us level match the channels, as stated earlier.


----------



## 14642

For those of you who are having trouble integrating the bass with the midbass, here are some tips:

1. The Subwoofer level control in MS-8 isn't a gain control for the sub output. It's basically a target curve adjuster and boosts or cuts bass with a filter that mimics the low-frequency end of the target curve. The target curve includes 9dB of boost below 60Hz with a smooth transition to 160 Hz. The subwoofer level control is a shelf that boosts or cuts below 60 and never above 160 (the slope of the filter changes with the amount of boost or cut. Use it to adjust the level of the bass before going after it with the 31-band EQ.

2. If you're using a factory head unit and your factory system has a subwoofer, disconnect the subwoofer output of the factory amp from MS-8's input and re-run input setup. This will work great if your factory midrange speakers are 6", but not in BMWs with 4" midrange drivers. MS-8 includes enough boost to put the bass back in so long as the factory crossover is near about 80Hz. The reason that this is important is that in many cars with factory subwoofers, the front speakers and the sub crossover aren't well aligned and the electrical combination of the two create a huge dip in the response that MS-8 tries to fix with boost. MS-8 can't determine if the dip is caused by a big "underlap" or because the two signals are out of phase at the crossover (because of alignment of the crossover frequencies and slopes). 

3. Reverse the polarity of the subwoofer and re-run acoustic calibration. 

4. If any of the first three don't do the job and you're using a little sealed box and your sub amplifier also has a crossover, set the amp's crossover to about 60 or 70Hz. This will change the overall response of the sub by reducing the boomy midbass it makes (which is picked up by MS-8's mic and used to set the sub bass level). Then, run acoustic calibration again. 

And, if you're having trouble getting a center image, the sweeps are too loud or one midrange/midbass is wired in reverse polarity. Verify the polarity by plugging a source directly into the amp that drives those speakers and playing a mono signal or use a 1.5V battery and check to see that the speaker moves forward when the battery + is applied to the speaker +. Simply checking the wires may not be sufficient, especially if you're bridging a 4-channel amp to drive the two speakers. If you used the B.S. "put one midbass out of phase to fix the image" trick for two-channel systems, you have to eliminate this for MS-8-based systems. It's a B.S. fix, anyway.


----------



## chadillac3

Sonofabitch; the forum just got reset to two days ago. 

Andy, we really need y'all to determine a concrete way of measuring sweep volumes to determine what they need to be. I still think our issues are related to gain and volume, but obviously some of use have something going on that is causing problems. You know I've tried all sorts of crap, and sometimes the unit works great, but it takes a helluva lot of trial and error for me to get it to do that. And the ***** is I'm my area's expert right now. 

I'm in good with my local dealer, to the point where he gave me Gary's cell phone # to call if I need more advice. With that said, I'd much rather figure this out on my own so I can help others who might experience the same symptoms. But I'm going blind in terms of trying different settings, other than "it's too loud."


----------



## 14642

chadillac3 said:


> Sonofabitch; the forum just got reset to two days ago.
> 
> Andy, we really need y'all to determine a concrete way of measuring sweep volumes to determine what they need to be. I still think our issues are related to gain and volume, but obviously some of use have something going on that is causing problems. You know I've tried all sorts of crap, and sometimes the unit works great, but it takes a helluva lot of trial and error for me to get it to do that. And the ***** is I'm my area's expert right now.
> 
> I'm in good with my local dealer, to the point where he gave me Gary's cell phone # to call if I need more advice. With that said, I'd much rather figure this out on my own so I can help others who might experience the same symptoms. But I'm going blind in terms of trying different settings, other than "it's too loud."


Chad, 
I'll be back at work this week and we'll work on this. For what it's worth, I tested every possible use case (speaker and input configuration) with and without external amps and never had this problem and never noticed a big difference between tunings. I didn't use speakers with dramatically different input sensitivities, though. If the sub sweep was way too loud, it didn't work very well. This is why we set it up like we did. It seemed super simple, but obviously, there's some variation that we didn't uncover in testing these hundred-and-something use cases in that car and in the many other cars in which we've installed MS-8s. 

That isn't meant to suggest that there's no issue and I'll help you get this resolved as quickly as possible when I'm back at work and have an MS-8 I can use to test. If your setup works great sometimes and not so great some other times, this indicates to me that whatever setting you're using is on the ragged edge of MS-8's huge window of what it's able to fix.


----------



## Gary Mac

chadillac3 said:


> Sonofabitch; the forum just got reset to two days ago.
> 
> Andy, we really need y'all to determine a concrete way of measuring sweep volumes to determine what they need to be. I still think our issues are related to gain and volume, but obviously some of use have something going on that is causing problems. You know I've tried all sorts of crap, and sometimes the unit works great, but it takes a helluva lot of trial and error for me to get it to do that. And the ***** is I'm my area's expert right now.
> 
> I'm in good with my local dealer, to the point where he gave me Gary's cell phone # to call if I need more advice. With that said, I'd much rather figure this out on my own so I can help others who might experience the same symptoms. But I'm going blind in terms of trying different settings, other than "it's too loud."


did our posts from yesterday get deleted?


----------



## Grim0013

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> That isn't meant to suggest that there's no issue and I'll help you get this resolved as quickly as possible when I'm back at work and have an MS-8 I can use to test. If your setup works great sometimes and not so great some other times, this indicates to me that whatever setting you're using is on the ragged edge of MS-8's huge window of what it's able to fix.


Non issue. Just avoid holding it in that way.


----------



## bhaycraft

Sure looks like we lost 2 pages some with Andy's posts. What Happened ?


----------



## ItalynStylion

bhaycraft said:


> Sure looks like we lost 2 pages some with Andy's posts. What Happened ?


Did you guys really not read the forum announcement PM's? There were two of them...


----------



## jbowers

Grim0013 said:


> Non issue. Just avoid holding it in that way.


Best post I've read today :laugh: Thank **** Apple and Steve Jobs have nothing to do with car audio.


----------



## JoeDirte

ItalynStylion said:


> Did you guys really not read the forum announcement PM's? There were two of them...


I didn't get any PM's about this. Enlighten me.


----------



## michaelsil1

JoeDirte said:


> I didn't get any PM's about this. Enlighten me.


A Moderator left and deleted some things so they have to go back and restore the site to a previous time.


----------



## jrsmiles

Got my MS-8 installed today. I've only listened for about 30 minutes, and I'm going to have to dig into the tuning of it this weekend. 

I do know though that my bluetooth phone acts a little funky to other callers. Some friends were telling me they hear echos of themselves, and I've never heard that complaint before. The sound to me is just fine inside the cabin. The car is a 07 Acura TL-S.


----------



## drtool

Blue tooth problem is posted awhile back. Andy knows about it and is working on a fix.


----------



## subwoofery

JoeDirte said:


> I didn't get any PM's about this. Enlighten me.


Only the best did receive PMs  

Kelvin 

PS: I know I did


----------



## 14642

jrsmiles said:


> Got my MS-8 installed today. I've only listened for about 30 minutes, and I'm going to have to dig into the tuning of it this weekend.
> 
> I do know though that my bluetooth phone acts a little funky to other callers. Some friends were telling me they hear echos of themselves, and I've never heard that complaint before. The sound to me is just fine inside the cabin. The car is a 07 Acura TL-S.


 
Thanks. This is useful info despite being a bummer. So far, we've had several complaints about Acura and Pioneer BT, but BMW seems to be OK. We're testing with a Pioneer and I'll find someone in the office with an Acura on Tuesday. Please stay tuned and thanks for being patient while we figure this one out. Apparently, there are as many BT echo cancellation algorithms as there are belly buttons...


----------



## 14642

Grim0013 said:


> Non issue. Just avoid holding it in that way.


About 20 years ago when I worked in a retail store, we were a Jet Sound dealer. These were inexpensive but decent head units--bargain stuff that we had for consumers who didn't have the funds for Apine, Pioneer, etc. They were pretty good, but there was one model that failed nearly everytime we installed them. We had a stack of defectives in the warehouse when the rep came in. We explained that we were having some trouble with them and the rep said with a straight face, "Wow, that's surprising. We haven't had any complaints or any tech support calls. You must be the only ones." My boss led him to the warehouse and I helped stuff 37 radios in the back seat and trunk of the rep's Honda Accord. Needless to say, we dropped the line and I've never forgotten how stupid the rep must have felt and how sorry he probably was to have lost us as an accout.

I didn't mean to marginalize the issue, but it doesn't seem like the product is defective, we just need to find out what's causing the issue and get it fixed, whether it's a product issue or a setup routine issue.


----------



## jbowers

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> About 20 years ago when I worked in a retail store, we were a Jet Sound dealer. These were inexpensive but decent head units--bargain stuff that we had for consumers who didn't have the funds for Apine, Pioneer, etc. They were pretty good, but there was one model that failed nearly everytime we installed them. We had a stack of defectives in the warehouse when the rep came in. We explained that we were having some trouble with them and the rep said with a straight face, "Wow, that's surprising. We haven't had any complaints or any tech support calls. You must be the only ones." My boss led him to the warehouse and I helped stuff 37 radios in the back seat and trunk of the rep's Honda Accord. Needless to say, we dropped the line and I've never forgotten how stupid the rep must have felt and how sorry he probably was to have lost us as an accout.
> 
> I didn't mean to marginalize the issue, but it doesn't seem like the product is defective, we just need to find out what's causing the issue and get it fixed, whether it's a product issue or a setup routine issue.


The difference here Andy is that you and Adam are going out of your way to listen to users, troubleshoot and actively improve the product and our experiences with them. That gives the impression that JBL actually cares what happens after you get our hard earned money and that means so much more than marketing or hype, almost as much as the quality of the products themselves.

I'd have to admit that JBL and Harmon products in general had fallen off my radar, as my shop never carried any of your lines and I just had no recent experience with them. Thinking back through the years I do remember with fondness my first real subwoofer setup - a pair of Power Pro 12s and GTO amp circa mid-late 90s. They took quite a bit of abuse and sounded great. Point is, it's your actions directly that have led be to rethink my upcoming install to include not only the MS-8 but possibly more JBL gear, even though it's at a higher price point than your typical DIY product. Thanks for reminding us that DIY doesn't always mean we're unsupported by the manufacturer!


----------



## jrsmiles

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Thanks. This is useful info despite being a bummer. So far, we've had several complaints about Acura and Pioneer BT, but BMW seems to be OK. We're testing with a Pioneer and I'll find someone in the office with an Acura on Tuesday. Please stay tuned and thanks for being patient while we figure this one out. Apparently, there are as many BT echo cancellation algorithms as there are belly buttons...


No problem, I was aware of the issue and was curious if I would be affected after my install. 

I agree with the above post, I've used JBL products off and on for nearly 15 years in pro audio sound reinforcement, home audio, some car stuff and even computer systems. I couldn't really believe actual JBL employees were this active on a public forum helping diagnose and improve a new product. You don't really see that too often. 

Thumbs up to Andy and the JBL team!


----------



## jrsmiles

I'm a bit confused at how to set the gains on my amps with the MS-8 in line. 

I have a JL 300/4 and a 500/1. The 300/4 feeds ID XS65s active, and the 500/1 feeds a 10w6v2. 

I know the standard way is to set your head unit at about 75% of max volume, then increase gain until clipping, then back off the gain.

How would I do this with the MS-8 having volume controls, and the factor HU having a volume control? 

Anyone care to help?

Thanks...


----------



## matt1212

jrsmiles said:


> I'm a bit confused at how to set the gains on my amps with the MS-8 in line.
> 
> I have a JL 300/4 and a 500/1. The 300/4 feeds ID XS65s active, and the 500/1 feeds a 10w6v2.
> 
> I know the standard way is to set your head unit at about 75% of max volume, then increase gain until clipping, then back off the gain.
> 
> How would I do this with the MS-8 having volume controls, and the factor HU having a volume control?
> 
> Anyone care to help?
> 
> Thanks...


Well first off, because the JL amps have regulated power supplies, you may find it much easier to set the gains using a DMM. (JL Audio - Car Audio Systems)


----------



## 14642

Start by setting the gains on the amps to the 2V setting. When you do acoustic calibration, start with MS-8's volume at -40. Don't do the volt meter thing.


----------



## Grim0013

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I didn't mean to marginalize the issue, but it doesn't seem like the product is defective, we just need to find out what's causing the issue and get it fixed, whether it's a product issue or a setup routine issue.


I didn't mean to imply you guys were marginalizing the issue. I just couldn't pass up an opportunity to have a joke at Apple and Steve Jobs' expense.


----------



## michaelsil1

I happy to report I'm making progress with the MS-8. I tried doing what Andy suggested, but it didn't work out as well as I would have liked. 

I'm also having an issue with the highs cutting out at times, I don't think there's anything I can do to fix this issue. Andy seems to think it's heat related, but the unit is well ventilated.


----------



## jrsmiles

During initial setup, the MS-8 is asking for a pretty highly cranked level out of my stock HU. I max out at 40, and the MS-8 gets an OK level at 35. 

Following the rule of thumb where you should top out at 75% of your HU volume, this puts me at about 87.5%. Is that normal?


----------



## VP Electricity

jrsmiles said:


> During initial setup, the MS-8 is asking for a pretty highly cranked level out of my stock HU. I max out at 40, and the MS-8 gets an OK level at 35.
> 
> Following the rule of thumb where you should top out at 75% of your HU volume, this puts me at about 87.5%. Is that normal?


What car?


----------



## michaelsil1

jrsmiles said:


> During initial setup, the MS-8 is asking for a pretty highly cranked level out of my stock HU. I max out at 40, and the MS-8 gets an OK level at 35.
> 
> Following the rule of thumb where you should top out at 75% of your HU volume, this puts me at about 87.5%. Is that normal?


The MS-8 is measuring the Voltage.


----------



## jrsmiles

VP Electricity said:


> What car?


It's an Acura TL-S, stock Navi HU.


----------



## VP Electricity

The TL-S has a low-voltage balanced output to the OE amp. The MS-8 has some attenuation on the pigtail speaker in. That explains the high volume setting. Good news - that high your HU's auto-loudness is off 

Andy has said that the RCA inputs are balanced on the MS-8. You may want to try running the HU output into the RCA inputs. 

I am assuming you are usnig the HU outputs and not the OEM amp outputs.


----------



## 14642

jrsmiles said:


> During initial setup, the MS-8 is asking for a pretty highly cranked level out of my stock HU. I max out at 40, and the MS-8 gets an OK level at 35.
> 
> Following the rule of thumb where you should top out at 75% of your HU volume, this puts me at about 87.5%. Is that normal?


Sounds about right to me.


----------



## VP Electricity

My wife's 04 TSX isn't clipping at 40 of 40, IIRC.


----------



## 14642

If you're getting the OK OK OK at 80-or-so-percent of the volume control, then you're fine. If you put something else in there to boost the voltage or do something else that makes MS-8's input max out at a lower setting of the factory volume control, the car will play louder with less "volume control" but nothing else will be gained. Nothing. I swear.


----------



## jrsmiles

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Start by setting the gains on the amps to the 2V setting. When you do acoustic calibration, start with MS-8's volume at -40. Don't do the volt meter thing.


Maybe I've been reading too much, but I've confused myself. I've set my gains to about 25%, HU volume at 35/40. MS-8 volume at -40. Now I've run the acoustic calibration, and the listening volume is too low. I want maximum clean gain for each set of speakers, and a high sound level from the system. 

How do I increase my gains now to get the output voltage I'm looking for? I'm planning on using a multimeter per JL's instructions on how to verify gains, but I need to know I'm hitting the inputs on the amps with the high end of the limits in order to get an accurate gain output reading. What should the MS-8 level hitting my amp input be? -40? -20?

Thanks for the help, I've read through most of this thread and haven't seen any detail about verifying amp gain with accuracy, just some quotes about "turn it up from there". I'm sure there is a fairly simple answer.


----------



## SouthSyde

did you turn the volume back up after calibration? to like -20..


----------



## 14642

jrsmiles said:


> Maybe I've been reading too much, but I've confused myself. I've set my gains to about 25%, HU volume at 35/40. MS-8 volume at -40. Now I've run the acoustic calibration, and the listening volume is too low. I want maximum clean gain for each set of speakers, and a high sound level from the system.
> 
> How do I increase my gains now to get the output voltage I'm looking for? I'm planning on using a multimeter per JL's instructions on how to verify gains, but I need to know I'm hitting the inputs on the amps with the high end of the limits in order to get an accurate gain output reading. What should the MS-8 level hitting my amp input be? -40? -20?
> 
> Thanks for the help, I've read through most of this thread and haven't seen any detail about verifying amp gain with accuracy, just some quotes about "turn it up from there". I'm sure there is a fairly simple answer.


Too much has been made over the years about gain and level setting. Some years ago, systems were made up of a head unit, an EQ, separate electronic crossovers and then amps. Setting levels in these kinds of systems was important, but we no longer use so many analog components in a lengthy signal chain. In a system like that, each component should be driven with the highest level possible before the outputs OR the inputs are clipped. and the signal sent over the wire should be maximized to maximize the signal to noise ratio. The reason for all of this was noise. Too much INPUT sensitivity and too little output voltage would result in system hiss and would boost the level of engine noise, which would be amplified by every component in the chain. 

We no longer have to be so concerned with all of that because systems now are often a head unit, a signal processor of some kind and some amplifiers. Additionally, components now often have differential inputs, which are designed to eliminate the possibility of engine noise.

So, with MS-8, the analog signal from the source is converted into a digital signal in the unit before anything else happens and we've designed the unit to make setting this level as easy as it can be. The RCAs are fixed input sensitivity and are designed to work with all aftermarket head units without any user intervention. Just plug them in and go. The unit, without EQ, is designed to provide unity gain up to 2.8V, which is plenty. That means if you put 1V in, you get 1V out. If you put 2V in, you get 2V out. If you put 9V in, you'll get 2.8V out but it'll be seriously distorted. When you turn the output of your radio down so that you send 2.8V, you'll get 2.8V that isn't clipped. 

Now, one of the reasons that all of this input sensitivity setting procedure was developed and that many of us suggest things like 10dB of gain "overlap" is because a system that can't clip doesn't sound very loud, especially with recordings that have a high crest factor and little dynamic range compression added to the final mixdown. You *want* your system to clip, but you want to balance that with the amount of noise (hiss) you allow the system to produce. You *don't *want _*much*_ of this clipping to be digital distortion, because that sounds bad. 

If you're using a 4V head unit with MS-8, that provides 3dB of gain overlap. You won't hear much distortion unless you listen to sine waves recorded at 0dB with the volume control turned all the way up. With normal music and the head unit's volume control all the way up, only the transients that are recorded at 0dB will be distorted, but only by 3dB. You won't hear that and if you do, simply backing the volume control of the head unit off by a couple of notches will take care of it. 

Since the MS-8 is designed to provide unity gain, it's sufficient to set the input sensitivity of the amplifiers to the same setting as the output of your head unit for 0dB of gain overlap between MS-8 and your amps). This will ensure no input clipping of your amplifiers and will ensure the least noise possible. Double the input sensitivity will result in an additional 6dB of gain. So, if your head unit is a 4V unit, you can set the input sensitivity of the amps to about 1V, which will give you a total of about 9dB of "overlap". Precision isn't required.

Because MS-8 also has a volume control, you'll have to manage how you use it. You don't have to use the MS-8 control if you'd prefer to use the one on your radio. If you choose to do this, then you'll need to set the MS-8 volume control at some level that allows the right amount of "input sensitivity" but also allows enough digital headroom for the EQ inside of the MS-8 to operate without running out of bits (that causes digital distortion). I suggest setting the MS-8 control at -6dB to -9dB during listening, unless you boost the bass in MS-8. If you boost, then you should set it lower by about the same amount as you boost and then use your head unit's volume control. 

If this in't enough "gain" for you, then turn the amplifiers up after calibration by the same amount to maintain MS-8's "tune". 


You can determine the point at which your radio outputs about 2.8V by putting the setup disc in your aftermarket radio and running input setup. The point at which you get OK OK OK is the point at which your radio outputs about 2.8V. You can continue to run input setup and MS-8 will Un-EQ and remove any channel delay. If you're using an aftermarlet radio, none of that should be necessary so all of the EQ filters will be set to unity. That means what comes in goes out. If you choose "skip input setup", all of the filters will be set to unity. 

When you run acoustic calibration, MS-8 will set all of the output levels according to the acoustic response in the car. This takes into account the sensitivity of the drivers and their frequency responses. Some outputs will be increased in level and some may be decreased. So long as there's no hiss, the output level and the input sensitivity control of your amps don't matter. Let MS-8 do what it does. 

When you run acoustic calibration, the output of the system can't clip the mic, or things will be ugly. If the mic is clipped during the first set of sweeps, the unit won't be able to locate the initial peak in the response and it won't set time alignment correctly. You'll know this is the case, because there won't be a center image. This is all the volume control setting for acoustic calibration is doing--making sure the system doesn't clip the mics. To ensure this, turn MS-8's volume control DOWN. If you use MS-8's internal amps, -20dB is the highest setting you'll need. If you're using additional amps, you'll have to turn it down MORE. -40, maybe. This setting doesn't matter too much in terms of the final outcome, but the level does change the way MS-8 will boost and cut, because everything has to fit in a "window". The window is big, though.

This is no different than tuning with a regular EQ. If you boost all the bands to fix holes, you'll have a super loud car and you'll probably have lots of clipping and noise. You'll also probably boost in the interest of filling holes cause by acoustic cancellation, which may overdrive your speakers and cause additional distortion. MS-8 tries NOT to do this, but it can't know for sure. If your response has big holes because you're using an 8" midbass and a 1" tweeter and the wrong crossover point, you may hear distortion because MS-8 is boosting as much as it can to fill a hole that can't be filled. Fix the speaker system. MS-8 can't make gold out of crap. 

If, when you're tuning with a manual EQ, you cut all the bands to remove peaks, then you'll reduce the output voltage of the EQ at frequencies where you've cut and you'll probably want to readjust the input sensitivity of all of the amps to increase the level of the whole system to make up for it. If you think about it, this is how we all tune systems anyway. So long as you don't introduce a bunch of system hiss, this is fine. Cutting a lot and boosting a little is the best method. This is how MS-8's algorithm is designed to work. It works well, but GIGO still applies. 

Once acoustic calibration is complete, if you want to use your head unit's volume control, set MS-8's volume control to -6 and go crazy. If you boost a bunch with MS-8's EQ or sub level control, you may have to turn MS-8's volume control down to leave more digital headroom for the boost. This isn't a defect. This is how digital EQ works. Some digital EQs normalize the response. That would result in everything else being reduced in level as you boost the bass (or the EQ). We didn't do this because it adds complexity to the system and the result of boosting with these systems when you reach the level at which there are no more bits available is counterintuitive. 

If you want to use MS-8's control, do this: Put in a music disc, turn MS-8's volume control DOWN to something like -40 or -50 (so you know you're not clipping the outputs of MS-8 or your amps) and turn up the head unit's volume control. When you hear distortion, you'll know you're either clipping the output of the radio or the inputs of MS-8. Turn the head unit's volume control down until you don't hear any more distortion. This is the maximum usable output of the head unit for MUSIC and for that particular disc. If you listen to another disc with more or less dynamic range compression in the recording, you may find a different volume control setting produces *audible *distortion. This is related to our ability to hear distortion on transients, the length of the transients and how often those transients are repeated. The idea here is that you have control over the amount of clipping you allow. It is what it is and balancing the two volume controls will help you get the most from your system. I think the vast majority of systems will be fine. 

The bass can't clip the mics during sweeps 2-4 either, because the EQ doesn't know what to do. Be sure that the level of the bass is LOW during the sweeps. If you have twelve 15" woofers and you want to wake the neighbors, turn the amp gain WAY down during calibration. The bass should be heard during the sweeps, but you shouldn't feel it. Then, after calibration, turn the gain of the amp up until you're happy. You can't wake the neighbors and have 40dB more bass than mids and highs and maintain the illusion that the bass is in the front of the car, which is what MS-8 is designed to do. You'll have to adjust the gain of the amp to get what you want, because MS-8 tries to eliminate what you want. Let MS-8 do what it does, and then make your adjustment afterward. 

Finally, if the system doesn't play loudly enough, adjust the amplifier input sensitivity control to increase the overall system level. There's no need to use a meter or a scope. Just adjust them all up or down by the same amount to maintain MS-8's EQ and relative level settings. The VMM method won't work because there's a bunch of EQ applied to the signal, which increases and decreases the output voltage at different frequencies. BTW, the VMM method is only slightly more accurate than just setting by ear.

Don't be confused by all of the "this has to be precisely set to get the most from your system" garbage. If there's no noise (or the noise is low enough that you're not annoyed by it) and your system plays loudly enough, then things are set appropriately.


----------



## Mic10is

Andy or anyone whos done experiments with the topic

How important is Timbre matching the front speakers? Will it be very noticeable if the front speakers donot match?

Say you put Dyns in the kicks or doors put use a Focal for a center bc its what fits--how much will tonality be affected?

Would you place more emphasis on selecting a better Center or Fronts?


----------



## trevordj

Mic10is said:


> Andy or anyone whos done experiments with the topic
> 
> How important is Timbre matching the front speakers? Will it be very noticeable if the front speakers donot match?
> 
> Say you put Dyns in the kicks or doors put use a Focal for a center bc its what fits--how much will tonality be affected?
> 
> Would you place more emphasis on selecting a better Center or Fronts?


Here is the answer to your first question: 




Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Either the 6 or the 8 in the center is fine. No timbre matching by identical speakers is required... Shoot for 70Hz to 200 or so.


----------



## Mic10is

trevordj said:


> Here is the answer to your first question:


thanks, I remembered that from Andy before, but I am not thinking of exact speaker matching per say, more curious what the overall sound would be with speakers that have almost opposite tonal characteristics.
How well would the MS-8 match them?

and of the front speakers, which should have more emphasis--center or front mains?


----------



## Fast1one

Hi Andy,

I am aware that the differences between 5.1 and 7.1 for home theater in small rooms is quite small, but you haven't addressed the specific differences between these formats with the MS8 while playing music. At least to my knowledge searching here and in other forums. 

Can you be more specific on the advantages of going full 7.1? From what I have read, a good start for speaker positions are the side speakers mounted in the rear doors (sedan) and the rear speakers playing from the rear deck. From my research, it seems that 7.1 helps with sound-stage depth and is also a bit more optimal for multiple seating positions. 

I am only interested in optimizing for either the driver or both front seats, depending on how much of a compromise there is between them. I will be using a center and L/R mounted in the kick panels. Thank you for your time and I look forward to using the product in the future. 

-Serg


----------



## 14642

The difference between 5.1 and 7.1 is VERY difficult to hear. Even if you have 7.1 speakers, I suggest running sides and rear in parallel and bi-amping the front (either tweeters and mids or midbass and mid/tweeter).


----------



## blackreplica

Dear Andy,

First of all, thank you for pointing me in the right direction as to where to get myself an MS-8 a while back. Managed to score myself a set, and my 2009 Lexus IS250 is currently in the shop having the system installed

I was very surprised to notice that my car model is the very one you used in your promotional video with Gary Biggs and another JBL exec (i forget his name), which appeared a few pages back in the form of a facebook video link. if anything, the fact you chose to use my car to promote the MS-8 gives me confidence that if installed right, i should get fantastic results

Just out of curiousity, since you all obviously have some firsthand experience with my vehicle. Are there any not-so-obvious things you guys found out about the acoustics of IS250 vehicle which may help me if i knew about it?

I will have the following installed:

Stock head unit with high level outputs from the levinson amp going to the MS-8 (any issues with obtaining a full range signal from using the ML front speaker outputs (6 channels), center (1 channel), and sub (1 channel, wired to channel 8 of the MS-8 of course, as per your manual, if i read it correctly)

Alpine SPX-177r tweeters (the vifa ring radiator OEM)

Fostex FR-88EX (for the center channel as well)

These will be dash mounted with fibreglass enclosures in the corner of the dash. Center channel will be using the OEM space

SEAS Nextels 6.5 inchers in the doors (stock location) + dynamat

Stock sub in the rear parcel shelf

Rear speakers completely disconnected from the new sound system. I will leave it wired to the levinson amp and have the head unit fader pushed full to the front so the MS-8 does all the work.

Entire system powered by an Alpine MRV-F407 and its special edition brother the MRV-F409, both from eons ago. 8 channels total at 60W @12V

Installation should be done by the end of the week. I've read all your very helpful posts with great interest, took lots of notes and where relevant, applied every single one (such as setting 2V input gain initially on the amps, among others)

If there is any further advice you can give me to make my system as good as it can get before the install finishes, do let me know.

P.S Any issues if i use a 3 inch mid for the center channel crossed at 250Hz? How big an issue is the highpass freq for the center channel?

Hope it all turns out well. I have waited 5 years for this thing. Wanted it so bad ever since you started talking about it on the carsound forums way back. Congrats on finally getting it done


----------



## Grim0013

I've got a question about an application for you Andy... I've already got an MS-8 for my Grand National, but since that install is lagging behind, I'm considering sticking MS-8 in my Jeep and if I really like it, getting a second one for the Buick. So, my question, questions really, is how to best go about sticking speakers in the thing. It's a 2000 Wrangler with a soft top. The current speaker locations are as follows:

5.25" in the dash, about knee height, aimed slightly down, though the tweeter is on a swivel mount aimed at my head, more or less.. (It's a 4x6 location that is barely able to hold a 5.25 plate setup) You can see the grills, just below the vents on either side of the lower dash in this photo I just found. http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/3924/781/22307890037_large.jpg
5.25" in the "sound bar", which puts them about 6" above and 12" behind my head.
12" behind the back seat, slot loaded, about 1.2 ft^3, sealed.

The obvious concerns I have are a lack of midbass and the positioning of the "rears". The 5.25 in the dash is not sealed at all, and I'm not sure if it is even worth trying, since the position barely holds a 5.25". As it stands now, I just packed some polyfill in there behind them to try and help out the midbass, though it is still lacking. I really don't want to have to build some pods or whatever for 6.5's, but that's a different topic I suppose. The question is, if I decide to put some 6.5" in the kicks, should I also relocate the tweets, or leave them where they are? Actually, another quick question obout the fronts...If I do decide to get some mid-bass in the kicks, do you think the results would be better with a) 6.5" and tweet in the kicks, b) 6.5" in kicks, tweet in low-dash, or c) 6.5" in kicks, 5.25 and tweet on passive x-over, in low-dash? As to the "sound bar", will that position work ok as rears? It'll probably do some odd things for anyone in the back seat, since it's above and in front, but oh well.

Power-wise, I'm currently using some old Alpine V12s....a MRV-F400 (60x4) and MRV-T500 (1x300), though I am thinking of putting more power to the sub, around 500W via a Soundstream Ref 700 or Phoenix Gold MS-2125. I think I'd go with the 4x60 powering the front stage, the 300 or 500 on the sub, obviously, and power the rears (tops?) with MS-8. Seems like the obvious way to go....it's positioning that I struggle with.


Thanks in advance.


----------



## 89grand

I have a 2000 Wrangler too. I also have 5.25" coaxials in the dash, 6.5" coaxials in the sound bar and a Tang Bang 6.5" sub in the passenger side foot well. The dash is a horrible location for midbass, I get next to none, and I also tried stuffing polyfill behind them.

I finally just decided that the best I can do is try to make it loud enough to hear while driving with the top off, have some degree of tonal balance, and have some amount of low bass. Since I actually use my Jeep as a Jeep, it just wasn't worth the effort to try and reach high levels of sound quality. I commend anyone that attempts it though in that vehicle.

One thing I had thought about though, was doing an array of smaller drivers like maybe 2 inchers in the windshield pillars. Being as the windshield is nearly straight up and down, it wouldn't be as effected and a typical car with a steeply sloped windshield.


----------



## yuri

guys i have installed my ms-8 today ,
and all i get is a message on the screen " please wait" i have for over an hour.

i rechecked /re done all the connections several times ,, reset the main unit several times but all i get is " please wait "

help


----------



## michaelsil1

yuri said:


> guys i have installed my ms-8 today ,
> and all i get is a message on the screen " please wait" i have for over an hour.
> 
> i rechecked /re done all the connections several times ,, reset the main unit several times but all i get is " please wait "
> 
> help


The Jack for the display isn't plugged in securely.


----------



## thehatedguy

Yuri, read my posts a couple pages back. Same thing happened to me.


----------



## nepl29

Im having an issue with the set up. Its say Low signal level. Im using the factory idrive from a 530i Hi-fi with the front speaker level outputs to input 1-2 and the sub output to input 7-8. been playing for it for the past 2 hours.


----------



## yuri

tracked the problem to the cable ? the L connector is a bit iffy ,, 


quick one ,,

as i am in the uk and we drive on the correct side of the road  
are cars are right hand drive ..

is the ms-8 smart enough to know where i am sitting ? 
or do i just set it up as passenger seat ??????????


----------



## michaelsil1

yuri said:


> tracked the problem to the cable ? the L connector is a bit iffy ,,
> 
> 
> quick one ,,
> 
> as i am in the uk and we drive on the correct side of the road
> are cars are right hand drive ..
> 
> is the ms-8 smart enough to know where i am sitting ?
> or do i just set it up as passenger seat ??????????


Drivers seat is the drivers seat whether you're on the correct side of the road or not.


----------



## 14642

michaelsil1 said:


> Drivers seat is the drivers seat whether you're on the correct side of the road or not.


Right. That's why it's labeled as it is.


----------



## yuri

its a shame the right angle cable doesn't work , have to turn it this way and that to get it work , ended up wrapping the cable around the display to keep it working long enough to set it up ..


----------



## CraigE

I like the right angle, keeps the wire out of sight, and aimed at the gooseneck mount.
Never had a problem with it.


----------



## cymro

*JBL MS-* Land Rover INstall - Issues*

Andy,
Hope you can help us with the Land Rover LR4 Install.
I am sure this is operator error, but I have sent you a PM and an email in the hope you can help.
(I did not want to post the full text here until I know what's going on)
hope you can help
E


----------



## kaigoss69

nepl29 said:


> Im having an issue with the set up. Its say Low signal level. Im using the factory idrive from a 530i Hi-fi with the front speaker level outputs to input 1-2 and the sub output to input 7-8. been playing for it for the past 2 hours.


In my 335i I have to take the L7 head unit volume to 49 clicks to get "OK OK OK". I believe the max is 60 clicks. I have been wondering what would happen if I had a less powerful amp...and you do! Have you taken the volume to max?

Edit: If you max out the HU volume, and cannot get MS-8 to accept the signal, I would try feeding your speaker outs into the RCA inputs instead of high-level inputs.


----------



## bhaycraft

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaycraft 
Hey Andy,

You were saying that 7.1 mid woofer in the door is all wrong so I went and asked around and here is what I got back just wondering your thoughts

Andy Wehmeyer JBL Product manager.
"FWIW, a 7" woofer and a 1" tweeter won't "mate" successfully unless the tweeter uses some kind of closed or vented back that significantly reduces its resonance so it can be crossed over close to 1k. The woofer is too big to maintain the right dispersion at the crossover frequency. This has nothing to do with the brand or any hocus pocus marketing story about the woofer. It's just a fact and depends solely on the diameter of the driver. This causes a big difference between the on-axis and off-axis responses of the speakers"

Scott's answer,
Andy is speaking of speaker directivity as it relates to cone diameter. I think I’ll let him be the one that crosses his tweeters over at 1,000 Hz, thank you.

Andy misses many things here in his quote. A 7” midbass would indicate a radiating area of 7”, which by the time you add surround and frame, it is likely a 10” woofer. The reality is that a 7” woofer has a radiating area much less than seven inches. <roll eyes> Furthermore, there’s no tweeter in this world that can be crossed at 1,000 Hz, I don’t care how low of a resonance the tweeter has. A driver that needs to be crossed at 1,000 Hz is a midrange. 

The reality is that yes, speaker directivity begins to narrow at the wavelength that equals the diameter of the radiating surface of the driver. For a 7.1” midrange, the radiating surface is 4.625 inches (this is the part of the speaker that makes the tone, and does not include the surround nor the frame of the speaker). The wavelength of 4.625 inches is 2,900 Hz. That means the 7.1” midbass does not begin to “beam” until 2,900 Hz. Even at 4,000 Hz, the speaker’s beaming/directivity is relatively minor. In car audio, we actually like a certain degree of beaming, because with beaming occurs an attenuation of upper frequency information the more off-axis you go. So if you are 60 degrees off axis on the left side of the car, to the left speaker, the right seated passenger is likely only 30 degrees off axis. That means a defined improvement in bandwidth for the opposite-seated passenger. This is a good thing.

The system sounds just fine the way it is now. Continue on as intended.

Purposed system

System
Front Left door and Front Right door L61-2 Pro Woofers mounted in factory door 6x9 location and tweeters mounted in the sail panel factory location.
Center thinking either one L3 or L4 with matching L1 pro tweeter could probably fit up to 5 1/2 if really needed
Rear Left and Right door I6-2 mounted in factory 6x9 door locations
Rear Left and Right D-pillars another pair of either L3 or L4 if I can get them to fit.
Subwoofer is jl Audio stealth box containing One 10W3v3-4ohm in factory location. 

Power JL Audio XD series amps( not set in stone could do other arrangements or amps if bridging and the like)
XD600/6 for Front and Center 75w x 6 at 4ohm
XD400/4 for Rear doors and Rear D-Pillars 75w x 6 at 4ohm
XD600/1 for Subwoofer 400w x 1 at 4ohm

Does this all seem reasonable or am I missing something. Thanks


I'll explain this tomorrow.
Global Product Line Manager, JBL Car Audio
Harman Consumer


----------



## bhaycraft

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaycraft 
"FWIW, a 7" woofer and a 1" tweeter won't "mate" successfully unless the tweeter uses some kind of closed or vented back that significantly reduces its resonance so it can be crossed over close to 1k. The woofer is too big to maintain the right dispersion at the crossover frequency.
Andy is correct in principle, though I'd approach it from the opposite side of the driver. That is to say, it needs some kind of waveguide-loading to match the woofer's directivity at the crossover. Or bigger cone area, so as to require less excursion to reach low.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaycraft 
This has nothing to do with the brand or any hocus pocus marketing story about the woofer. It's just a fact and depends solely on the diameter of the driver.
Again, Andy is correct. I would have used a different term than "diameter of the driver," such as "cone diameter" or "Sd," just in case someone were to bring up the pathological case of a 10" basket with a spacer leading to a 4" cone. 

(I've never seen it but I'm sure it's out there.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaycraft 
Andy misses many things here in his quote. A 7” midbass would indicate a radiating area of 7”, which by the time you add surround and frame, it is likely a 10” woofer. The reality is that a 7” woofer has a radiating area much less than seven inches.
Scott is also right here, though the difference is one of semantic interpretation. A typical 7" woofer has a surface area of 125-135cm^2, which assuming a circular driver means a piston of around 5.25". 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaycraft 
Furthermore, there’s no tweeter in this world that can be crossed at 1,000 Hz, I don’t care how low of a resonance the tweeter has. A driver that needs to be crossed at 1,000 Hz is a midrange.
I disagree with Scott here, and his terminology is also a little imprecise. First, Andy didn't say anything about the HF driver needing to be crossed over at any frequency. There's nothing innate about the HF driver's response that forces it to go low. It is rather forced by the collapsing directivity of the next driver down to be able to play that low.

Also, "Tweeter," "midrange," "midwoofer," "midbass," "woofer," "subwoofer," "widebander," "full range," etc. are all subjective terms. Still. I don't think anyone would call a 1" BMS or B&C compression driver on a big waveguide a "midrange," given that it can play up to 16-20k Hz. The tweeters in my main home speakers go down to 1.4kHz, aided by the waveguide-cum-woofer-cone of the Dual Concentric driver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaycraft 
The reality is that yes, speaker directivity begins to narrow at the wavelength that equals the diameter of the radiating surface of the driver. For a 7.1” midrange, the radiating surface is 4.625 inches (this is the part of the speaker that makes the tone, and does not include the surround nor the frame of the speaker).
My math gets something different, because of a different interpretation of radiating diameter. The industry standard assumption is, I believe, that either 1/3 or 1/2 of the surround is considered "moving," and thus counts towards the radiating area. Hence the difference between my ~5.25" figure and Scott's 4.625" figure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaycraft 
The wavelength of 4.625 inches is 2,900 Hz. That means the 7.1” midbass does not begin to “beam” until 2,900 Hz.
That depends on what one defines as "beaming." As I interpret the term, any falloff from pure omnidirectional response is "beaming." So beaming by my interpretation happens much before 2.9kHz for a typical 7" driver. However, if one defines "beaming" as "6dB down at 60deg," then "beaming" would for a typical 7" driver would happen at or around 2kHz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaycraft 
So if you are 60 degrees off axis on the left side of the car, to the left speaker, the right seated passenger is likely only 30 degrees off axis. That means a defined improvement in bandwidth for the opposite-seated passenger. This is a good thing.
I agree with Scott here.
"Tradition ist eine Bewahrung des Feuers, und nicht die Anbetung der Asche" ("Tradition is stoking the fire, not praying over the ashes") -Gustav Mahler


----------



## bhaycraft

Hey Andy I reposted what I could but couldn't put the woofer picture back. Would still love the explanation since it would be some work to get the 7.1 woofers in the door. Why not to do it. Since I thought the HAT Legat Pros are well regarded and was thinking it would be a perfect match with the MS-8 and JL Audio Sub and XD amps.


----------



## VP Electricity

bhaycraft said:


> Hey Andy I reposted what I could but couldn't put the woofer picture back. Would still love the explanation since it would be some work to get the 7.1 woofers in the door. Why not to do it. Since I thought the HAT Legat Pros are well regarded and was thinking it would be a perfect match with the MS-8 and JL Audio Sub and XD amps.


Dude, stop trying to have two people who aren't talking have a conversation. 

Andy has pointed out a legitimate system design issue, which has nothing to do with the MS-8. 

If HAT and Scott thought that 7" drivers blend so great with tweeters that nothing else is required, they probably wouldn't make both 3" and 4" mids and suggest that their speakers be used in three-way front stage setups so often. 

Given that many, many people here use three-way front stage setups because of the same issues that Andy brought up, I suspect you could have this conversation in another thread. It's really off-topic as far as the MS-8 is concerned - you would have gotten the same warning if you were using a BitOne or a DSP-6 - probably not from Andy, but from SOMEBODY.


----------



## thehatedguy

I have heard the same thing Scott said this week from another speaker company- you want some beaming in the car for all of the reasons Scott stated.

As far as the 3 and 4" speakers, they probably recommend them because it is hard to put some 7s in a proper location and enclosure in a lot of cars. Using a 3 way lets you put the large speakers in the doors and the midranges where they will be installed properly in the proper enclosures.

I thought you guys were experts in vehicle acoustics...seems pretty rudimentary to me the reasoning why the recommendation for the 3 way system.

And who the hell is warning him, you? Like he could give a **** who you are.


----------



## bhaycraft

Well for one thing I was trying to do the board a service by putting up items that were automatically deleted during the board reset. I had saved them because I am trying to make this non comp system the best it can be and I plan to use the MS-8 at the heart of it and if Andy is willing to share his knowledge as it relates to making a good system with the MS-8 then so much the better for the group. Were not all installers. But thanks for your comments.


----------



## VP Electricity

thehatedguy said:


> And who the hell is warning him, you? Like he could give a **** who you are.


Well, I guess they call it a forum for a reason... the world's biggest fool can say the sun is shining, and that doesn't make it dark out.


----------



## VP Electricity

bhaycraft said:


> if Andy is willing to share his knowledge as it relates to making a good system with the MS-8 then so much the better for the group.



He did. Someone one stated a different approach. Our responsibility as adults is to navigate contradiction.


----------



## alachua

I understand what you are trying to do, but there has been a trend in the thread of people asking questions that are related more to product selection and install than specifically to the MS8. The forum has many people who would be able to provide great feedback to these posts, but they most likely won't see them due to them being in this thread. Alternately, the thread is growing at a pretty rapid rate, making it even harder for someone to walk into and get caught up to date simply by reading.


----------



## nepl29

kaigoss69 said:


> In my 335i I have to take the L7 head unit volume to 49 clicks to get "OK OK OK". I believe the max is 60 clicks. I have been wondering what would happen if I had a less powerful amp...and you do! Have you taken the volume to max?
> 
> Edit: If you max out the HU volume, and cannot get MS-8 to accept the signal, I would try feeding your speaker outs into the RCA inputs instead of high-level inputs.


I try the volume to max and it did not work. Im gonna try feeding the speaker outputs to the rca tomorrow morning.


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## 14642

Bhaycraft,

The short answer is that if you use the 7" woofer, depending on the crossover point you choose there will be a hole in the power response of the speaker, whether that's measured in the car or in an anechoic chamber. In a non-reflective or much larger environment, you could simply point the speaker at your ears and not be concerned about the off-axis response. In a car, the sound that the speaker makes at angles that don't reach your ears directly is a huge part of the response that you hear. No matter what EQ you use, fixing the hole in the power response (the response you measure in the car) will put more energy into the system at that frequency. It'll create a big peak in the on axis response. It's like making applesauce with one beautiful apple and one with a worm in it. 
The explanation of the graph and related issues is here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio-sq-forum/11579-flat-response-3.html

Start with post #51 and keep reading. It's all there. 

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with Buwalda. There are 2 schools of thought regarding beaming in cars. I don't think it's possible to really use beaming in cars to good effect with traditional drivers without some kind of waveguide. Basically, beaming occurs at the highest frequencies that the speaker will reproduce, so to truly take advantage of the beaming effect of traditional drivers, you'd need 3" tweeters with a high pass filter above about 6kHz, 8 or 10" midranges that would have to be high-passed at 2kHz, 15" midranges and even larger woofers. It just isn't practical. 

You asked if your system proposal was optimum for MS-8. My suggestion is that it isn't optimum in any case. Scott disagrees. So you'll have to decide. If you're serious about doing some research to learn about this, buy "Sound Reproduction" by Floyd Toole and read up on speaker directivity and rooms. Seriously, there's a good explanation in there. 

My intent isn't to have a religious discussion about car audio, or to throw anyone under the bus. MS-8 will make it sound better than if you don't install an MS-8.


----------



## 14642

nepl29 said:


> I try the volume to max and it did not work. Im gonna try feeding the speaker outputs to the rca tomorrow morning.


Be sure to turn L7 in the factory radio off before running setup and set the balance and fader to the center. Speaker level inputs should be the way to go in your car.


----------



## nepl29

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Be sure to turn L7 in the factory radio off before running setup and set the balance and fader to the center. Speaker level inputs should be the way to go in your car.


I dont have Logic7, i have the basic Hi-fi stereo. The Idrive radio powers the front and rear speakers and a trunk mounted amp powers the subs that are under the seats.


----------



## 14642

Oh. My bad. Sorry. Try sending the front outputs only to the RCAs and don't hook up the sub. See if setup will calibrate that way and if you have enough bass first. If not enough bass, connect the output of the factory sub amp to the speaker level inputs 7 and 8.


----------



## nepl29

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Oh. My bad. Sorry. Try sending the front outputs only to the RCAs and don't hook up the sub. See if setup will calibrate that way and if you have enough bass first. If not enough bass, connect the output of the factory sub amp to the speaker level inputs 7 and 8.


Can i use the existing speaker level outputs or i have to change them to rca?


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Oh. My bad. Sorry. *Try sending the front outputs only to the RCAs and don't hook up the sub*. See if setup will calibrate that way and if you have enough bass first. If not enough bass, connect the output of the factory sub amp to the speaker level inputs 7 and 8.


The fronts are high-passed at around 150Hz by the HiFi amp.


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Be sure to turn L7 in the factory radio off before running setup and set the balance and fader to the center. Speaker level inputs should be the way to go in your car.



same problem with *low signal level *here, in Mercedes w211/219 series

fact is that MS-8 seems is wanting a much higher input voltage than the minimum value of 0.3V we was said till now.

I am getting "Signal OK" but *"Level LOW"*
we just measured the output voltage with a 1Khz signal: voltage is *.822 Volts* but the problem is still there ..



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

as I am using a modified Harman L7 audiogateway with pre-outs, we thought that the low voltage issue could be caused by the mod, so we connected another stock AGW, without Logic7, using speaker level front channels connected to spk level input in ms-8.
unfortunately result is still worst: ms-8 doesn't even catch the "Signal OK" mark !

we tried connecting another aftermarket radio and we see that we get the "level OK" at nearly 1.2Volts ... so, it seems this is what ms-8 really wants.


----------



## Grim0013

thehatedguy said:


> And who the hell is warning him, you? Like he could give a **** who you are.


The "warning" VP referred to was Andy warning him that a 7" and 1" may not blend well. Stop looking for reasons to look like a douche and learn how to read what's actually there.


Sorry to fuel the fire, but it pisses me off when people don't take the time to make sure they actually understand what someone meant.


----------



## VP Electricity

TPMS said:


> same problem with *low signal level *here, in Mercedes w211/219 series


You try running it into the RCA jacks?


----------



## thehatedguy

I didn't see a warning from anyone anywhere. Warning was probably a bad choice of words, advise would have been better. In the context of the thread when VP said warn, it looked to me as if he was giving the kid a warning for reposting a bunch of stuff.

Sparky, how am I supposed to take the time to understand? I read the posts, what else is there to do other than read the screen? What pisses me off is someone being a dick and talking about what pisses them off...so as not to look like a dick.



Grim0013 said:


> The "warning" VP referred to was Andy warning him that a 7" and 1" may not blend well. Stop looking for reasons to look like a douche and learn how to read what's actually there.
> 
> 
> Sorry to fuel the fire, but it pisses me off when people don't take the time to make sure they actually understand what someone meant.


----------



## TPMS

VP Electricity said:


> You try running it into the RCA jacks?


I had a really hard time at getting my ms-8 
and I am NOT going to try putting any high-power signal into a low-power input in MY ms-8
... I have only one


----------



## t3sn4f2

TPMS said:


> I had a really hard time at getting my ms-8
> and I am NOT going to try putting any high-power signal into a low-power input in MY ms-8
> ... I have only one


.8 volts is high power? 

An ipod has a stronger output then that.


----------



## 14642

TPMS said:


> I had a really hard time at getting my ms-8
> and I am NOT going to try putting any high-power signal into a low-power input in MY ms-8
> ... I have only one


Marco,
You aren't going to blow anything up by trying to connect this in this way. It's just a voltage issue. The point is that your output doesn't have enough voltage to drive MS-8. Your speaker output probably does, and MS-8 was designed to use it. At .8V, you're still not near the limit of the op amp you've installed in your radio. Your technician should explore dual supply voltage or change the bias.


----------



## TPMS

t3sn4f2 said:


> .8 volts is high power?
> 
> An ipod has a stronger output then that.



thought I stated clearly enough that 822mV is not from high-level, but from the pre-out that we obtained from the stock AGW ( which come without pre-outs when stock)


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Marco,
> You aren't going to blow anything up by trying to connect this in this way. It's just a voltage issue. The point is that your output doesn't have enough voltage to drive MS-8. Your speaker output probably does, and MS-8 was designed to use it. At .8V, you're still not near the limit of the op amp you've installed in your radio. Your technician should explore dual supply voltage or change the bias.


so, here are more details about these PRE-OUTS ( I do not have anymore speaker-level outs available in my HK Logic7 AGW):
we tried putting back the 4558 OP instead of the BurrBrown2134: as expected, signal voltage did NOT change because of the replacement. It was about *420mV*.

the, we tried a simple circuitry to boost the signal, and obtained *822mV*, as pictured above.

but still not enough for pre-inputs of ms-8 to read a sufficient signal.


In the last few hours we found the solution by making a more complex circuitry which allows a much higher signal gain (trimmable):


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

*we just tested this thing and finally seems ok: level reading is even too high with the volume knob maxed and we had to turn it down and got Level OK.*
I think that it is necessary to keep the signal at the minimum necessary to avoid possible noises and/or distortions.
will check this whole functionality on the weekend.

*but, the above solution is something "customized" for me, not for those Mercedes owners who have a stock AGW with speaker-level only *and no pre-outs: maybe, for them, putting the speaker wires into ms-8 pre-inputs will work. 
What I can tell you is, as said in the previous post, that we tested another original AGW (base version, without Logic7) and connecting speaker wires to the corresponding inputs of ms-8, it doesn't even read the "signal OK" .. 

sorry but I feel better if somebody closer to a JBL assistance office will try to put those same speaker wires into ms-8 pre-out jacks. 
My ms-8 didn't even come with any kind of warranty certificate ... 
so,* for the MB crowd, let's know when you'll have an answer !*
best regards, Andy


ps: ... any possibility to get a replacement for my "damaged" ms-8 plate


----------



## nepl29

Gotta mine to work via the rca input. Thanks for the suggestion Guys.


----------



## TPMS

nepl29 said:


> Gotta mine to work via the rca input. Thanks for the suggestion Guys.



great, this is nice to know !

did you connect fronts only or also subs to rca input ?


so, what difference with ms-8 after calibration .. :surprised:


----------



## nepl29

TPMS said:


> great, this is nice to know !
> 
> did you connect fronts only or also subs to rca input ?
> 
> 
> so, what difference with ms-8 after calibration .. :surprised:


I connected both front and subs to the rca inputs. from past experience i knew that front would not work by itself because of the way my OEM radio signal is crossed.

It sounds AWESOME, still messing with couple of settings but im a believer in this product.


----------



## jimbno1

Can someone tell me if I am out of luck for the following scenario?

I know this is hard to believe but my car has a “gasp” Cassette stock radio and no CD changer. If I don’t have a CD source to run the setup do I have any alternatives? Can I use an ipod somehow? 

My plan was be to keep the factory head unit for AM/FM and use the Aux with the ipod as my main music source.


----------



## DAT

jimbno1 said:


> Can someone tell me if I am out of luck for the following scenario?
> 
> I know this is hard to believe but my car has a “gasp” Cassette stock radio and no CD changer. If I don’t have a CD source to run the setup do I have any alternatives? Can I use an ipod somehow?
> 
> My plan was be to keep the factory head unit for AM/FM and use the Aux with the ipod as my main music source.



Wow Jimbno1, 

That is hard to believe, man why not update that HU ?


----------



## AdamS

jimbno1 said:


> Can someone tell me if I am out of luck for the following scenario?
> 
> I know this is hard to believe but my car has a “gasp” Cassette stock radio and no CD changer. If I don’t have a CD source to run the setup do I have any alternatives? Can I use an ipod somehow?
> 
> My plan was be to keep the factory head unit for AM/FM and use the Aux with the ipod as my main music source.


Your car has an Aux or MS-8's Aux? If you car has an Aux, just burn a couple minutes from the Setup CD to your Ipod and play into your car's Aux during Input Setup. If your car doesn't have an Aux, you can try an FM modulator from any source, but I don't know if any are good enough.


----------



## mikey7182

jimbno1 said:


> Can someone tell me if I am out of luck for the following scenario?
> 
> I know this is hard to believe but my car has a “gasp” Cassette stock radio and no CD changer. If I don’t have a CD source to run the setup do I have any alternatives? Can I use an ipod somehow?
> 
> My plan was be to keep the factory head unit for AM/FM and use the Aux with the ipod as my main music source.


Maybe you can get Andy or Adam to dub the setup tracks onto a cassette for you.


----------



## jimbno1

Yeah I know. Old Dude with old POS car. What can I say. I do not want to spend any more $$$ or time than I have to on a 91 Lexus. And if I could have kept the head unit it would be stealth.

The car does not have an aux input that I can see. I may just get a cheap head unit but they all seem to look like crap. 

Hey at least I should get some credit for coming up with a unique problem.


----------



## jimbno1

I do have a P9 combo I guess I could use the head unit from that but it seems kind of a waste.


----------



## kkant

AdamS said:


> Your car has an Aux or MS-8's Aux? If you car has an Aux, just burn a couple minutes from the Setup CD to your Ipod and play into your car's Aux during Input Setup. If your car doesn't have an Aux, you can try an FM modulator from any source, but I don't know if any are good enough.


Or he can use a cassette tape ipod adapter. They are about $25 at best buy. Probably better and more consistent quality than the FM modulators. Those FM things blow goats.


----------



## t3sn4f2

jimbno1 said:


> Yeah I know. Old Dude with old POS car. What can I say. I do not want to spend any more $$$ or time than I have to on a 91 Lexus. And if I could have kept the head unit it would be stealth.
> 
> The car does not have an aux input that I can see. I may just get a cheap head unit but they all seem to look like crap.
> 
> Hey at least I should get some credit for coming up with a unique problem.


Maybe you can find a used AUX in adapter if the car model and year supports it. New ones are under $80, so a used one for an older model shouldn't be that much.

Edit: Never mind, 91 is too old for that type of tech. You can always make the iPod the main input through the RCA inputs of the MS-8, allowing you to setup the MS-8 as often as you want. You might need a long dock connector to RCA cable for that (ie LOD), and their could be noise issues going that route, but it's better then nothing. Or you can mount the MS-8 upfront which would allow a typical portable device cable length run, eliminating the potential for picking up noise from a long cable run though the car. 

Then find a cheap line out converter for the OEM head unit speaker level outputs and connect its outputs to the AUX in of the MS-8.


----------



## 14642

Tell me the model and trim level of your Lexus and I'll see if I can dig up some kind of documentation. I was an installer in 91 and we used to open the radio and interrupt the leads from the tape or the tuner, but I can't remember which year that was. 

There is undoubtedly a solution that won't require that you replace the head. If there's no factory EQ, it may be sufficient to hook up the front speaker outputs to MS-8, choose "Skip input setup" and run acoustic calibration. 

Car model and trim please


----------



## jimbno1

Thanks for the assistance. I am not completely against replacing the radio. It seems like it might make things simplier rather than more complicated. 

But anyway the cars is a 91 Lexus LS-400. Not sure of the trim level or how to find out. I have the original sticker and it lists the audio as "7 Speaker High Output Audio System with Bi-Amplified Subwofer, ETR Radio, and Auto Reverse Casette Deck". The radio says "Lexus Premium Sound System" it is a Pioneer system. 4's in the doors, tweets in the sail panels. Here are some pics. And yes I know the car is dirty. I am a slob. Get over it.


----------



## mikey7182

Is that hay down by the gas pedal? Hay in a Lexus... that has to be a first.


----------



## 14642

Jimbno,
Here's the scoop:

YOur car had a CD changer option when itwas new. If you can find a CD changer for it at a junkyard (there are lots of online junkyards) that would work, and would be especially cool if you want to play CDs. There appears to be one here: 1991 LEXUS LS400 REMOTE CD CHANGER If you just want to use your iPod and listen to the radio, then I suggest the following.

Connect MS-8's inputs to the factory radio output 1 and 2. Choose "Skip Input Setup" in the setup menu. MS-8 won't correct the frequency response of any EQ in the head unit and you may lack some bass when you listen to the radio. If you plan to listen primarily to your iPod, your iPod will sound great. It should be plugged into the Aux input of MS-8.

If great EQ is important when you listen to the radio as well, then put the test signal from MS-8's setup disc on a casette and try that. I've never tried to calibrate MS-8 with a casette, but I don't see any reason that it wouldn't work. 

Or, just get an aftermarket CD player.


----------



## jimbno1

Thanks for the info. Looks like it will be cheaper and easier just to get a new head unit.


----------



## ErinH

I looked in the manual and didn't see...

can you guys tell me what the impedance is on the pre-ins of the ms-8?


----------



## kennybike

Andy-

I know you have a S60R... I have a V70R...

We have too many speakers and I am getting confused as to the best layout.

With a sub channel, and a center channel, what layout would you recommend for the other 6 channels from ms8?


----------



## t3sn4f2

bikinpunk said:


> I looked in the manual and didn't see...
> 
> can you guys tell me what the impedance is on the pre-ins of the ms-8?


Hasn't been mentioned but I'm assuming it's _at least _10Kohms.


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> Hasn't been mentioned but I'm assuming it's _at least _10Kohms.


About 22k


----------



## ErinH

thanks.


----------



## BigRed

Craig was kind enough to rta the MS-8 in my truck.


----------



## Technic

I have to say that the crew of JBL have done some magic box with this MS-8... what takes months of tweaking with another processor/EQ, this MS-8 _mostly_ does it in minutes. The 31-band EQ is the icing for that final touch. 

This was installed in a 2008 M3 with the Individual Audio system, coded for HiFi (full range balanced outputs instead of MOST digital), plus a trunk ID10 sub. Bass is everywhere, front stage is in the windshield, stereo separation is impressive. No matter the source (FM, Sirius, HDD, iPod, CD) it sounds newly detailed, defined. And the bonuses: no hiss, no whine, no pops.

If I want to know if something is not quite right with my tuning I use lately the song _Killer Bee_ by Ralvero, with heavy and fast bass, mid bass increasing highs and quite a lot of stereo separation, and I got goose bumps when I played it for the first time with this sucker. No ****. 

Thanks. :thumbsup:


----------



## CraigE

Andy,
My image is well centered, and stage width is well beyond the A pillars.
The problem is the kick drum is only about half way out on the hood and center vocals are just beyond the windshield.
Do you think there's a problem with my unit ?
P.S. I'm using stock locations.


----------



## ErinH

BigRed said:


> Craig was kind enough to rta the MS-8 in my truck.
> *image snipped*


which is the target curve, pretty much.


wanna have some fun? Measure the left and right separately and compare.


----------



## BigRed

bikinpunk said:


> which is the target curve, pretty much.
> 
> 
> wanna have some fun? Measure the left and right separately and compare.


it actually works


----------



## ErinH

yep.

LMK if you get a chance to measure the L/R separately. The results were definately not what I expected.


----------



## quality_sound

Technic said:


> I have to say that the crew of JBL have done some magic box with this MS-8... what takes months of tweaking with another processor/EQ, this MS-8 _mostly_ does it in minutes. The 31-band EQ is the icing for that final touch.
> 
> This was installed in a 2008 M3 with the Individual Audio system, coded for HiFi (full range balanced outputs instead of MOST digital), plus a trunk ID10 sub. Bass is everywhere, front stage is in the windshield, stereo separation is impressive. No matter the source (FM, Sirius, HDD, iPod, CD) it sounds newly detailed, defined. And the bonuses: no hiss, no whine, no pops.
> 
> If I want to know if something is not quite right with my tuning I use lately the song _Killer Bee_ by Ralvero, with heavy and fast bass, mid bass increasing highs and quite a lot of stereo separation, and I got goose bumps when I played it for the first time with this sucker. No ****.
> 
> Thanks. :thumbsup:



Did you go back to using the IA drivers? Did you add a tweeter to the center channel?


----------



## quality_sound

CraigE said:


> Andy,
> My image is well centered, and stage width is well beyond the A pillars.
> The problem is the kick drum is only about half way out on the hood and center vocals are just beyond the windshield.
> Do you think there's a problem with my unit ?
> P.S. I'm using stock locations.


This is a problem why?


----------



## BigRed

quality_sound said:


> This is a problem why?


Craig's humor....trust me....there is not problem with his setup


----------



## rain27

BigRed said:


> Craig was kind enough to rta the MS-8 in my truck.


Did you do any measurements prior to the MS-8?


----------



## kkant

CraigE said:


> Andy,
> My image is well centered, and stage width is well beyond the A pillars.
> The problem is the kick drum is only about half way out on the hood and center vocals are just beyond the windshield.
> Do you think there's a problem with my unit ?
> P.S. I'm using stock locations.


Man, that totally blows.  Replace the car, maybe?


----------



## Mako312

Is the MS-8 more for people who have a stock HU?

I was looking into getting a Alpine 9887. Would this be a good pairing for it?


----------



## alachua

Has anyone used logic7 with speakers low in the rear doors? I have a Subaru Impreza which does not have speakers on the rear deck, but I do have some sort of speakers in my rear doors (I have no idea what they are, but the car does not come with a factory sound system). I am planning on picking up an MS8 pretty soon and I'm wondering if it would be worth running the rears of the built in amps on the MS8. I am not currently running a center chanel, but the dash is perfect for one, so I may add it in later.


----------



## Technic

quality_sound said:


> Did you go back to using the IA drivers? Did you add a tweeter to the center channel?


I replaced the front OEM components with Morel Hybrid Ovation II and the OEM woofers with Kicker SSMB8, the rest of the speakers are OEM. The center OEM speaker -as well as the rear sides- are coaxial.


----------



## BigRed

rain27 said:


> Did you do any measurements prior to the MS-8?


yeah, lots....it did'nt look like that


----------



## kkant

Mako312 said:


> I was looking into getting a Alpine 9887. Would this be a good pairing for it?


Yes.


----------



## flomofo

2010 Toyota Prius with JBL factory NAV/Audio:

Just finished the G8 this was intended for and now I have a 2010 Prius with the JBL Factory Nav system, seeing what you recommend Andy if you have any insight into how to improve the factory system sticking with all JBL products (Just for fun!).

The factory speakers are interesting as the car uses 6x9's low in the doors with squawkers (2.6" mid/tweets) up high in the dash corners. Then more squawkers high in the rear doors with 6.5" speakers low in the rear doors.

Cheap 2 ohm speakers I'm sure and the factory JBL amp actually runs each of the eight speakers individually, but beyond that I think the JBL amp controls the bluetooth and maybe other functionallity as well? 

Reading through this thread again to see if with this type of setup if I have to run the ms-8 after that underseat 8 channel JBL amp to maintain certain features.

This is similar or the same to the Toyota Camry JBL system as well I believe, so if you have some ready-made recommendations for component upgrades throw those out too while I continue to read through this massive thread....


----------



## kaigoss69

BigRed said:


> Craig was kind enough to rta the MS-8 in my truck.


What program is this?


----------



## fish

I tried to search on this thread, but no luck.

Is it NOT recommended to use the MS-8 with a fullrange speaker playing from 250-20,000hz? Will the MS-8 function properly used in this manner, or will there be adverse effects?

I guess I should add all speakers involved in the system. 3" fullrange, 8" midbass, 12" sub.


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Marco,
> You aren't going to blow anything up by trying to connect this in this way. It's just a voltage issue. The point is that your output doesn't have enough voltage to drive MS-8. Your speaker output probably does, and MS-8 was designed to use it. At .8V, you're still not near the limit of the op amp you've installed in your radio. Your technician should explore dual supply voltage or change the bias.



Andy, today I could finally run the input setup in-car ..

rca inputs of ms-8 required only a bit more signal that I had before: at about 900mVolts I got the 3 OKs 


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

after reinstalling everything in the car, result from running input setup + acoustic calibration is quite different than I had a week ago when running acoustic calibration after skipping the input setup. 
The work of ms-8 is much more sensible .. also TA is more consistent.
Power is now very strong even with amps' gain set at half (2V) and, what's best, even those floor noises we had at the bench, disappeared 
Acoustic calibration was performed with volume at -41db. 

2 things would like to ask:
- when running the sweeps we tried also the option of covering the tweets in the sails (as it had been suggested some pages ago in this forum) , but result was not better.
- processing-on is less loud, even if volume is strong, than with processing-off. maybe I should go and search when this question was discussed in the forum: just don't remember if that is to be considered normal or if it can be due to some kind of mismatching between the volume gain of each external amplifier

Now we are running 7.1 configuration, so have one only ms-8 channel serving the front door (that is a 3-way bi-amped with passive between tweets and mids). all other channels are busy with center, rear doors and deck.

Last week, when testing without input-setup we tried also two channels on front door and sides+rears in parallel (therefore 5.1). Unfortunately today we had not enough time to test that, but will do. 
.. and even my installer who is a Bit1 fundamentalist is liking to play with this MS-8 thing: its too enjoyable to play with


----------



## FJTTSE

Studio Six Digital RTA, probably part of the AudioTools suite. Just picked up a copy of AudioTools and the iAudioInterface hardware myself.

Studio Six Digital



kaigoss69 said:


> What program is this?


----------



## 14642

Marco,
I'm glad it's working now. Processing on will usually be less loud than processing off, because the EQ prefers to cut rather than boost. This is a fundamental principle when equalizing. In cars it happens even more often, since the midbass and lower midrange is always too loud. If there's a big difference between the results after running input setup in your system, this suggests to me that the head unit includes some equalization or some channel delay. 

Covering the tweeters MAY improve imaging if:

1. The tweeters are ONLY covered during the FIRST set of sweeps for each seat
2. If the tweeters and the midranges are connected to a passive crossover and not driven by separate MS-8 channels
3. If the tweeters and the midranges are mounted in locations that provide VERY different path lengths to the listening position. 

It's a tip, but not a requirement.


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Marco,
> I'm glad it's working now. Processing on will usually be less loud than processing off, because the EQ prefers to cut rather than boost. This is a fundamental principle when equalizing. In cars it happens even more often, since the midbass and lower midrange is always too loud.
> 
> true, with processing off, mids and midlows in doors were much higher, evne if we tried to equally balance as much a spossible the output level for each amplifier/speaker before calibration.
> 
> If there's a big difference between the results after running input setup in your system, this suggests to me that the head unit includes some equalization or some channel delay.
> 
> yes, I think it does, even if we chose the simple "stereo downmix".
> here, there's a description of the oem system: Harman/Kardon Mercedes CLS-Class
> 
> Covering the tweeters MAY improve imaging if:
> 
> 1. The tweeters are ONLY covered during the FIRST set of sweeps for each seat
> yes, that's how we did.
> 2. If the tweeters and the midranges are connected to a passive crossover and not driven by separate MS-8 channels
> yes, it's my case
> 3. If the tweeters and the midranges are mounted in locations that provide VERY different path lengths to the listening position.
> 
> It's a tip, but not a requirement.


about different path lenght, this is not the case, I think ...

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

one more: what must do if want to perceive a more sensible effect of TA ... turn the head more to left and right ?

thanks !!


----------



## 14642

I'm not sure what you mean by "sensible". If you're using a center channel, TA isn't nearly as important as if you aren't. However, since you're currently using a passive crossover for all three speakers in the doors, the difference between the location of the tweeter and the location of the midbass is big. For the first set of sweeps, try covering both the tweeter and the mid. That way, MS-8 will locate the midbass. I think you may prefer to connect the sides and rears together and bi-amp the front.


----------



## TPMS

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "sensible". If you're using a center channel, TA isn't nearly as important as if you aren't. However, since you're currently using a passive crossover for all three speakers in the doors, the difference between the location of the tweeter and the location of the midbass is big. For the first set of sweeps, try covering both the tweeter and the mid. That way, MS-8 will locate the midbass. I think you may prefer to connect the sides and rears together and bi-amp the front.



I mean, for the listening driver, that speakers close to him are more sensibly retarded/lowered in level with respect to speakers on the passenger's door.

the front is already bi-amped (even only one channel is used), so don't have passive between mid-low and midrange. Low-pass filter for Mid-low speaker is set by its dedicated amplifier. 

but, I was also thinking at trying the effect of covering the midrange


----------



## fish

fish said:


> I tried to search on this thread, but no luck.
> 
> Is it NOT recommended to use the MS-8 with a fullrange speaker playing from 250-20,000hz? Will the MS-8 function properly used in this manner, or will there be adverse effects?
> 
> I guess I should add all speakers involved in the system. 3" fullrange, 8" midbass, 12" sub.


Sorry I have to "bump" this question, but I think it may have gotten overlooked with so much going on in this thread.


----------



## 14642

MS-8 will work just as well as any other EQ with a supposed wideband speaker. Check the MS-8 center channel thread for an explanation of dispersion. 

I think your system might be happier if it had a tweeter or two.


----------



## katodevin

Does anyone know the max output of the MS-8's remote signal line output? Is it safe to run fans off of it directly, or do we still need to use a relay?


----------



## 14642

Use a relay. It's designed to provide enough current to turn on some amps, but not enough to drive fans.


----------



## t3sn4f2

katodevin said:


> Does anyone know the max output of the MS-8's remote signal line output? *Is it safe to run fans off of it directly*, or do we still need to use a relay?


Aouch!, I'm guessing not.


----------



## cymro

Just wrapped the install in a 2010 LR4 (Land rover) replacing the premium ($$$$) stock system.

THRILLED !!!

This thing is awesome!

Makes me want to drive.
Fuller report with sweeps over the evolution of the project to come.

In the interim.
Andy: - one question / hypothesis.
My subwoofer is in the tailgate and it's just not a great location. The MS-* helped (a LOT) but I still have some resonance.

I am considering a couple of options (remember I have those focal 165KRX3 in the door which are whopping for 6.5" drivers)

Options:

1. Lower the crossover point below 80hz so that the focals do more work (they aren't doing much at the moment)
2. Alternatively, reduce the gain on the sub amplifier so that the Ms-8 will steer more of the bass to the front door 3-way
3. Both of the above....?

Thoughts????


----------



## 14642

Cool!
You could try reducing the crossover point between sub and the doors. Try somthing like 60Hz and a 4th order slope. Reducing the gain on the sub amp won't cause MS-8 to steer more to the doors, it'll just cause MS-8 ot increase the ouptut loevel to compensate. 

What do you mean by "resonance"? is the panel vibrating or does the bass sound strange. Before doing any of this, try reducing 60-100 in the 31-band and boosting the subwoofer level a bit.


----------



## cymro

Andy
Panels are not resonating, it's a couple of frequencies that are out of whack. 
This is a small enclosure (stock tailgate location with pioneer shallow mount).

The 'sweeps' that a rustic calibration performs are not long so the resonance does not have time to 'build' 

Make sense?


----------



## 14642

Ahhh...sounds like a high-Q woofer in a little box. Reduce the crossover point. 60 may not be low enough.


----------



## cymro

Sorry
Acoustic calibration 
(iPhone autocorrect is ....... Amusing!)


----------



## 14642

There's a new app for that.


----------



## ErinH

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Ahhh...sounds like a high-Q woofer in a little box. Reduce the crossover point. 60 may not be low enough.


actually ran into this myself when helping a guy troubleshoot his this weekend. The box is seemingly the culprit of a HUGE spike at 50hz. We had to attenuate it almost entirely to get things to sound right.

We used the RTA to make sure. I had attenuated it about 3dB and it didn't help much. I used the RTA to double check it was around the 40-50hz range and sure enough, it was. So, we attenuated a lot more and continued to run sweeps until we brought the problem down.

Just goes to show you that in car audio, there are *no rules* and things you think can't possibly work sometimes do. An EQ notch isn't a fix, but it's a patch for now until the box can be rebuilt.


----------



## oslotdriver

Hi Andy,

Any info when i can buy the MS8 in Europe? Preferable Benelux region (holland/germany/belgium) or UK?

Plus i could use some advice / help on my setup.

Here is what i,m using in my M3 E92 BMW:

- 1x Audison bit one

- 2x Jehnert door panel
3x 165 mm (6,5") JEHNERT »POWER WOOFER
1x 100 mm (4") High-End-midrange driver
1x 26 mm (1") Neodymium-Dome Tweeter

- 2 x Earthquake SWS-8 below the seat

- 2 x audio system HX 100 Phase rear (10cm High-End 2-way System)

Apmlifiers

- Mosconi AS 200.4 200 x 4 @ 4 ohm (audio system, Full Mosfet Class AB)
- Mosconi AS 100.2 100 x 4 @ 4 ohm (audio system, Full Mosfet Class AB)

Preferable i dont want to add another amplifier due to trunk space, all amps are now nicely hidden below the trunk floor. But if needed i will add another one, or perhaps use the OEM amp?

Currently im running passive:

AS200.4 2 channels to the sub sws-8 and 2 channels to the door panels.
AS100.2 both channels for the rear.

I was thinking of the following:

- mids and tweets on channel 1 and 2.
- kickbass on channel 3 and 4
- both subs below chair on channel 5.
- center on channel 6.
- rear on channel 7 and 8.

I want to go active as much as possible. How would i best amp this setup? 
Or would you suggest different setup? 
What kind of center speaker should i use ? A coaxial one seems best?

Thanks

Jack


----------



## DS-21

Is there any way to get the MS-8 to see and EQ, say, five "subwoofers" and LCR? I notice when I played with Erin's that it only had space for two speakers labeled subwoofers. But I forgot to check if the "Front Lo" could play along with a subwoofer all the way down, or if there had to be a sub/front xover.

Anyone know?

(And before anyone asks, "why would you want to do that?" I have my reasons for asking.)


----------



## thehatedguy

Jay, I can check in a few if you don't get a definitive answer in the mean time.

But if you are doing what I think you are doing, I would think the 1 or 2 sub outs would be ok.


----------



## ErinH

DS-21 said:


> Is there any way to get the MS-8 to see and EQ, say, five "subwoofers" and LCR? I notice when I played with Erin's that it only had space for two speakers labeled subwoofers. But I forgot to check if the "Front Lo" could play along with a subwoofer all the way down, or if there had to be a sub/front xover.
> 
> Anyone know?
> 
> (And before anyone asks, "why would you want to do that?" I have my reasons for asking.)


I don't think so. Reason I say that is because your limited in crossover functions between 'sub' and the next driver in line, whether it be midbass, midrange, whatever.


If you could tell us why you're asking, maybe someone here can give you some advice on it, though.


----------



## AdamS

DS-21 said:


> Is there any way to get the MS-8 to see and EQ, say, five "subwoofers" and LCR? I notice when I played with Erin's that it only had space for two speakers labeled subwoofers. But I forgot to check if the "Front Lo" could play along with a subwoofer all the way down, or if there had to be a sub/front xover.
> 
> Anyone know?
> 
> (And before anyone asks, "why would you want to do that?" I have my reasons for asking.)


On Harman Kardon AVR's, we call this bass management mode 'L/R+LFE'. Large speakers play all the way down + sub. This is not allowed in the basic MS8 setup.


----------



## thehatedguy

Probably a Geddes-like random sub distribution through out the car.


----------



## 14642

AdamS said:


> On Harman Kardon AVR's, we call this bass management mode 'L/R+LFE'. Large speakers play all the way down + sub. This is not allowed in the basic MS8 setup.


Nope. We don't allow this. Two subs is all you get. Having the front speakers AND the sub play the same stuff is bad news. I fooled myself for a long tiime in thinking that using the fronts as low as they'd play and using a sub and a bunch of overlap actually worked. It doesn't--or it doesn't with front-mounted midbass and a rear mounted sub. If the sub is in the front, then maybe.


----------



## DS-21

bikinpunk said:


> I don't think so. Reason I say that is because your limited in crossover functions between 'sub' and the next driver in line, whether it be midbass, midrange, whatever.


Hmm. I'd ask "what if you say 'no sub," but from my limited time with your MS-8 last Saturday (my MS-8 isn't scheduled to arrive until the 28th or so, apparently) if you accidentally select two outputs to be the same "channel" (i.e. two right-front-low) it will disable the earlier selection.



bikinpunk said:


> If you could tell us why you're asking, maybe someone here can give you some advice on it, though.


One's going in the Miata. But otherwise winslow got it right except for his last three words, "throughout the car." if it'll work I'll pick up a second for home subwoofer EQ. (12V wall-warts are easy to find.) Basically, use it as a JBL BassQ that's both cheaper and more functional (5 outputs instead of two). I just threw in the LCR bit as a smokescreen. )



AdamS said:


> On Harman Kardon AVR's, we call this bass management mode 'L/R+LFE'. Large speakers play all the way down + sub. This is not allowed in the basic MS8 setup.


Adam, consider this a feature request then. 

Even outside of my proposed (and presumably unauthorized, as you guys would much rather I bought a JBL BassQ assuming I could ever actually find one for sale!) use, I can think of _many_ situations where some overlap of the midbasses and subs would be desirable. Not full LFE+Main, but some overlap. After all, extending Geddes' work to the car, the crap region is up ~an octave from where it is at home. So there's some theoretical benefit to randomizing "room modes" by having as many sources playing in the 100-200 Hz octave. (Yes, I am proposing running "subs" much higher than usual, because I think the conventional wisdom about sub crossovers is wrong. Established because of a combination of crappy, high-inductance drivers and too few drivers playing down low)


----------



## 14642

DS-21 said:


> Hmm.
> Even outside of my proposed (and presumably unauthorized, as you guys would much rather I bought a JBL BassQ assuming I could ever actually find one for sale!) use, I can think of _many_ situations where some overlap of the midbasses and subs would be desirable. Not full LFE+Main, but some overlap. After all, extending Geddes' work to the car, the crap region is up ~an octave from where it is at home. So there's some theoretical benefit to randomizing "room modes" by having as many sources playing in the 100-200 Hz octave. (Yes, I am proposing running "subs" much higher than usual, because I think the conventional wisdom about sub crossovers is wrong. Established because of a combination of crappy, high-inductance drivers and too few drivers playing down low)


Yes, if you're concerned about uniform coverage over many listening positions in the car, this might be beneficial and we've done some research in that area. As it turns out, since there are really only 4 listening positions, placing the subs in the center of the car (under the front seats) and limiting theinteraction of those and the next driver in the chain provides similar coverage for the 4 seats. 

I think your application is a cool idea and one that has merit, but there's no business case for it. Buy a carPC and a multi-channel interface. Youc an do BassQ with level, EQ and delay, and the number of iterations you'll work through will keep you busy enough that you'll have to xeriscape your lawn...


----------



## alachua

Andy, can you provide an approximate replacement cost for the speaker out harness? I am intending to use the MS8 to power speakers in my rear doors only and will be removing the wires for the other six channels, or trimming them short to minimize the risk of shorting. I just want to make sure this would not be a prohibitively expensive piece if my set up changed in the future.


----------



## kkant

DS-21 said:


> After all, extending Geddes' work to the car, the crap region is up ~an octave from where it is at home. So there's some theoretical benefit to randomizing "room modes" by having as many sources playing in the 100-200 Hz octave.


I'm intrigued. No doubt, 100-200 is the nightmare range in cars; just full of hideous room modes and standing waves. Can multiple drivers in that range help the problem? How many drivers would you need to have a significant effect?

Even so, I don't see why you would need the subs play up into that range. Why not just have mutiple parallel midbasses. That avoids beaming and breakup from the subs...


----------



## wadejg

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> the number of iterations you'll work through will keep you busy enough that you'll have to xeriscape your lawn...


HA!


----------



## alachua

I have a random suggestion/question. I am concerned about sacrificing stealth to have the screen installed in a semi-permanent manner. Since the remote only works if the screen is attached, and the only way to adjust the MS8's 'smart' sub boost is via the menu system with the remote and the screen, if I don't have the screen and remote, I can't use this function. 

What are the chances we can have a basic 'sub gain' knob to hook into the unit's display port that would enable this feature, without the need to have the screen and remote hooked up?


----------



## 14642

alachua said:


> I have a random suggestion/question. I am concerned about sacrificing stealth to have the screen installed in a semi-permanent manner. Since the remote only works if the screen is attached, and the only way to adjust the MS8's 'smart' sub boost is via the menu system with the remote and the screen, if I don't have the screen and remote, I can't use this function.
> 
> What are the chances we can have a basic 'sub gain' knob to hook into the unit's display port that would enable this feature, without the need to have the screen and remote hooked up?


Not much of a chance. The micro for the display is IN the display, so it sends control strings. The remote if RF, though. Mount the display in the glovebox or center console you'll be able to use the volume control and when you want to make adjustments, just open the compartment to see the display. 

There are other ways to do stealth. I thing Biggs mounted his display in the rear view mirror.


----------



## kaigoss69

Well I have to take back my earlier statement about not having a BT echo issue...

People on the other end are now complaining about being in an "echo chamber". I had originally "tested" it by leaving a message on my answering machine, and there was no echo, but the echo actually occurs when the person on the other end is talking, with their own voice.

I have not heard anything about this issue lately, or any possible fix, so please let it be known that my BMW (2008 335i) does have this issue.


----------



## Fast1one

DS-21 said:


> Even outside of my proposed (and presumably unauthorized, as you guys would much rather I bought a JBL BassQ assuming I could ever actually find one for sale!) use, I can think of _many_ situations where some overlap of the midbasses and subs would be desirable. Not full LFE+Main, but some overlap. After all, extending Geddes' work to the car, the crap region is up ~an octave from where it is at home. So there's some theoretical benefit to randomizing "room modes" by having as many sources playing in the 100-200 Hz octave. (Yes, I am proposing running "subs" much higher than usual, because I think the conventional wisdom about sub crossovers is wrong. Established because of a combination of crappy, high-inductance drivers and too few drivers playing down low)


If you have an extra channel, you could assign two subwoofers. Since most of the information down there is mono anyway for most recordings, why not run a set of midbasses in the doors to around 150-200hz and run your subs that high as well? Use an external highpass around 50hz to protect your midbasses.


----------



## Ovalevader

Do you need to run a 4ch input to run rear speakers? If not, my ms8 won't let me setup rear speakers, when I go to select rear speakers, the only option is "none".


----------



## M&MBlue

choose "side"... you have to use side before rear...


----------



## Ovalevader

Yea thats what I ended up doing. Sounds great that way, was just wondering how in the world you could select rears, lol.

Also, anyone wanna take a guess as to where I should cross my cars stock tweeters? They sound good at 3450, but I just hate that I have to recalibrate everytime I want to change it by 10 hz...


----------



## xr4tic

It says right in the manual that rears are only available if you setup sides, and if you dont have sides, use the side option for the rears.

It's a bit confusing, you'd think if they are able to make Rear say none, they could make Sides say Rear, and skip the Rear step....if that makes sense lol


----------



## wadejg

Has anybody run a full 7 channels with the MS8. Has anybody compared the 5 channels to the 7 channels? 

Thanks,
Justin


----------



## Technic

kaigoss69 said:


> Well I have to take back my earlier statement about not having a BT echo issue...
> 
> People on the other end are now complaining about being in an "echo chamber". I had originally "tested" it by leaving a message on my answering machine, and there was no echo, but the echo actually occurs when the person on the other end is talking, with their own voice.
> 
> I have not heard anything about this issue lately, or any possible fix, so please let it be known that my BMW (2008 335i) does have this issue.


I have no BT echo in my 2008 M3, but I'm not using the MS-8 high level outputs.


----------



## quality_sound

^^Interesting. 

On another not, where is yours mounted? The damned thing doesn't fit ANYWHERE. I'm hoping I can stack my amps and the MS-8 where the OEM amp is. Tuning will suck though since my sub will sit right above it.


----------



## michaelsil1

quality_sound said:


> ^^Interesting.
> 
> On another not, where is yours mounted? The damned thing doesn't fit ANYWHERE. I'm hoping I can stack my amps and the MS-8 where the OEM amp is. Tuning will suck though since my sub will sit right above it.


Mine is mounted under the Drivers seat.


----------



## UNBROKEN

Here's on for the dumb question forum maybe...but when you start with this what are you doing with the settings on your head unit?
I can reset my 9255 to it's factory settings...then let the MS-8 take over from there ?

I'm sure this has been covered...but time to read a 153 page long thread is hard to come by. LOL


----------



## rommelrommel

UNBROKEN said:


> Here's on for the dumb question forum maybe...but when you start with this what are you doing with the settings on your head unit?
> I can reset my 9255 to it's factory settings...then let the MS-8 take over from there ?
> 
> I'm sure this has been covered...but time to read a 153 page long thread is hard to come by. LOL


Put everything flat and leave it that way.


----------



## nirschl

UNBROKEN said:


> Here's on for the dumb question forum maybe...but when you start with this what are you doing with the settings on your head unit?
> I can reset my 9255 to it's factory settings...then let the MS-8 take over from there ?
> 
> I'm sure this has been covered...but time to read a 153 page long thread is hard to come by. LOL



Yep, run your 9255 _full range_ and you should be good too go. Let us know your results. I am about to give this a go with the DEH-P01 and see what gives.


----------



## UNBROKEN

I don't have an MS-8 to try...but it sure is tempting to get one.


----------



## Technic

quality_sound said:


> ^^Interesting.
> 
> On another not, where is yours mounted? The damned thing doesn't fit ANYWHERE. I'm hoping I can stack my amps and the MS-8 where the OEM amp is. Tuning will suck though since my sub will sit right above it.












I have been experiencing overheating issues, so this location is suspect.


----------



## michaelsil1

UNBROKEN said:


> Here's on for the dumb question forum maybe...but when you start with this what are you doing with the settings on your head unit?
> I can reset my 9255 to it's factory settings...then let the MS-8 take over from there ?
> 
> I'm sure this has been covered...but time to read a 153 page long thread is hard to come by. LOL


Set the DRZ9255 to Direct Mode.


----------



## quality_sound

michaelsil1 said:


> Mine is mounted under the Drivers seat.


E9X BMWs has the subs under the seats so that's a no go. I asked him specifically because he also has an E9X M3. Basically i was being lazy and I already know neither my amps nor my MS-8 will go where I wanted them to go.

I do appreciate the response though. As much as I don't want to I might have to do everything under the rear deck.



Technic said:


> I have been experiencing overheating issues, so this location is suspect.


How did you even squeeze it in there??? I tried and it woudn't even lay in there. I also haven't trimmed any of the nubs in there either. 

I am sooooooo tempted to drop the exhaust, pull that plastic hunk of wasted space out and see if I can fab up something with more room to replace it. 

Have you seen that done yet?


----------



## kaigoss69

quality_sound said:


> ^^Interesting.
> 
> On another not, where is yours mounted? The damned thing doesn't fit ANYWHERE. I'm hoping I can stack my amps and the MS-8 where the OEM amp is. Tuning will suck though since my sub will sit right above it.




















I had to get the side panel for the CD changer ($89). Not sure you would be able to fit another amp in there though. Physically it may be possible, but from a heat/ventilation standpoint, no way! You can mount the JL amps under the rear deck, like I did. It is a good location. Of course, if you get the side panel with the raised ledge, you cannot fit a custom sub enclosure above it. I'm sure you know that VP sells one for the right side...


----------



## quality_sound

I already have an enclosure for the drivers side and I might add one of the other side. The more I look at it the more I think it's going under the rear deck. Not exactly fitting into my goal of not taking up any space but I guess it's the best compromise. UNless I do the trunk lid.


----------



## Technic

quality_sound said:


> How did you even squeeze it in there??? I tried and it woudn't even lay in there. I also haven't trimmed any of the nubs in there either.
> 
> I am sooooooo tempted to drop the exhaust, pull that plastic hunk of wasted space out and see if I can fab up something with more room to replace it.
> 
> Have you seen that done yet?


It is set with velcro, nothing else modified. If the overheating -and that's what I am assuming as the unit itself does not shut down like the PDX; the bass gradually disappears and the rest of the music distorts after playing for a while like the DSP is "drifting"- gets worse then I will move the MS-8 to the rear deck underside.


----------



## Ari

To JBL guys or anyone else here that can help with this...

My Clarion DVD deck have F/R/Sub outputs but no real DSP crossover filters. Thus it does not have PASS-THRU capabilities. It only gives me these options: 

-----------------------------------------
*Bass Freq*: Choose the desired bass frequency
60Hz, 80Hz, 100Hz, 200Hz

*Treble Freq*: Choose the desired treble frequency
10KHz, 12.5KHz, 1.5KHz, 17.5KHz

*Sub Filter*: Choose the desired Sub Filter frequency
80Hz, 120Hz, 160Hz

*Bass Q-Factor*: Choose the Bass Q-Factor
1.0/1.25/1.5/2.0
-----------------------------------------

Questions: 

1. Will the MS-8 equalize all the signals flat regardless of what frequencies I choose above?
2. Because of the unit does provide a PASS THRU choice, will I need to feed the MS-8 more than Front Pre-Outs? Will I also need to feed the SUB Pre-Outs to the MS-8 as well?

I just like to know if I should get another deck before getting the MS-8 to mate with it. If yes, what's a basic no frills DVD/NAV deck that has PASS-THRU choice that you guys would recommend? Thanks for any help.


----------



## n_olympios

What do you mean by Pass-thru? 

Those options you mention are of the EQ, not the crossover (I say that because you mention it has no crossover filters, again false as it has a sub output so should definitely have a standard HPF/LPF). 

Anyway, no matter what q and center frequency you choose, if the bass and treble *volume* are 0 then the signal remains as is.


----------



## Ari

Thanks Olympios. My bad, you're right, I guess the sub filter is the standard HPF/LPF. But I'm confused what's being output to the unit's RCA preouts. If I choose a Sub Filter of 80Hz, are my Front Pre-Outs only fed 80Hz and up, while my Sub Pre-Outs are fed 80Hz and down? If yes, this would mean the Front Pre-Outs are not feeding the signal full range and thus I'd need to connect both the Front and Sub RCAs to the MS-8 to give it a full range signal. Please correct me if I'm missing something.




n_olympios said:


> What do you mean by Pass-thru?
> 
> Those options you mention are of the EQ, not the crossover (I say that because you mention it has no crossover filters, again false as it has a sub output so should definitely have a standard HPF/LPF).
> 
> Anyway, no matter what q and center frequency you choose, if the bass and treble *volume* are 0 then the signal remains as is.


----------



## 14642

What's the model number of your deck? I'll download the manual and see if I can help you sort this out.


----------



## Ari

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> What's the model number of your deck? I'll download the manual and see if I can help you sort this out.


Thanks for helping Andy. The deck is a Clarion NX500. The link to the manual is here: Clarion U.S.A. | NX500

The settings should be on pg. 50.


----------



## n_olympios

In the "Sub Filter" section under the Audio Menu, is there an option for "off"? If yes, then that's what you should use. 

The manual isn't as detailed as say an Alpine one, although the unit itself does seem to have most one would want (bar the audio section hehe)...


----------



## 14642

I can only assume that the front outputs are full range regardless of the sub setting.


----------



## Ari

Olympios: thx. Unfortunately there are no OFF choice under Sub Filter. Yeah I like the unit fir it's well roundedness in features; the audio section I wasn't too concerned with as I'll let the MS-8 take care of the sonics. 

Andy: thank you. I'll try it out. Would it hurt if I connect both the front and sub pre outs to the MS-8?


----------



## 14642

No, it won't hurt, but it's unnecessary. Just makeit easy and connect only the front and choose "Skip input setup".


----------



## BodegaBay

Hi Andy-

There are two speakers I'm choosing for my center. They're both 4in drivers. The first is a Micro Precision wideband midrange covering ~150Hz-1.6kHz. The other is a Morel component set with paasive xover and tweet integrated coaxially to mid. The Morel range is 60Hz-2.2kHz. My fronts are Dyn Esotec 6.5 components. 

Any thoughts on my driver choices for the center? Thanks.


----------



## 14642

BodegaBay said:


> Hi Andy-
> 
> There are two speakers I'm choosing for my center. They're both 4in drivers. The first is a Micro Precision wideband midrange covering ~150Hz-1.6kHz. The other is a Morel component set with paasive xover and tweet integrated coaxially to mid. The Morel range is 60Hz-2.2kHz. My fronts are Dyn Esotec 6.5 components.
> 
> Any thoughts on my driver choices for the center? Thanks.


The one that's closest to full range. Please check your post. Are you saying that the Morel only plays to 2.2k even though it has a tweeter? Are you planning not to use the tweeter or is this a typo?


----------



## UNBROKEN

If we're gonna branch off to center channel questions I have one myself.
I've read to match the center to your mids but haven't seen that clarified for a 3 way like mine.
I would definitely match brands with what I have...I'm anal that way so would I be looking for the 3" midrange and tweeter from my Focal 165KRX3 set or would I look for the 6 1/2" mid and tweet from a 165KRX2 set so the center would play lower to closer match the midbass in my 3 way ?
My dash is huge in my F250 so I can easily fit either one.


----------



## BodegaBay

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The one that's closest to full range. Please check your post. Are you saying that the Morel only plays to 2.2k even though it has a tweeter? Are you planning not to use the tweeter or is this a typo?


Sorry, it's my typo. The Micro Precision wideband mid plays 150Hz - 16,000Hz while the Morel covers 60Hz - 22,000Hz. I'm kind of amazed that the Morel can play (at least on their published specs) below 100mHz for a 4in driver. 

Sounds like you'd recommend the Morel then. Thx.


----------



## BigRed

UNBROKEN said:


> If we're gonna branch off to center channel questions I have one myself.
> I've read to match the center to your mids but haven't seen that clarified for a 3 way like mine.
> I would definitely match brands with what I have...I'm anal that way so would I be looking for the 3" midrange and tweeter from my Focal 165KRX3 set or would I look for the 6 1/2" mid and tweet from a 165KRX2 set so the center would play lower to closer match the midbass in my 3 way ?
> My dash is huge in my F250 so I can easily fit either one.


with a little work, you can get a 5 1/4" up there.


----------



## Hernan

I have read wonders about the MS8. 
I have not seen any before and after measurement showing it's EQ capability. T/A is not a big deal with a B1 or 701 but getting the FR on target is near imposible with a 1/3 oct eq.

Could the MS8 get the midbass within +- 5db, +-3dB????

Thanks a lot!


----------



## AdamS

Hernan said:


> I have read wonders about the MS8.
> I have not seen any before and after measurement showing it's EQ capability. T/A is not a big deal with a B1 or 701 but getting the FR on target is near imposible with a 1/3 oct eq.
> 
> Could the MS8 get the midbass within +- 5db, +-3dB????
> 
> Thanks a lot!


It's not a 1/3 oct eq. It's a 1/3 oct graphic eq. This runs over the main acoustic eq.


----------



## TPMS

Andy, just wanted to let you and anybody interested, know about the progress in having ms-8 optimally set-up in Mercedes with Harman audio and 7.1 environment.

must say, as first thing, that this ms-8 is not so easy to get set-up correctly .. my installer is indeed happier than me that the fine tune is not that "automatic", even if I am also enjoying the processespecially because after one week seems we are now having quite good results  

this is the RTA from the *stock HK audio system, with only Front channels *operating (and ms-8 not connected) 


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

the graph shows that stock processing was not that bad, except for a dip around 1- 1.25KHz. 
interestingly, it also shows that bass from fronts channels got as low as 80Hz.
unfortunately, contrary to the belief, it was NOT enough for MS-8 to create a proper sub-signal.

this graph shows *the curve AFTER MS-8 and INPUT SETUP *(i.e. with Processing OFF and L7 OFF): as I understand it, it is just the result of cleaning and summing of the signal operated by MS-8 :


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

It shows that some sub frequencies had been created by ms-8 ... but weak, as under 50Hz it stays below 75db.
Further, the graph is a bit weird... maybe you can comment on this ..

a further proof we have here, after calibration, with *PROCESSING ON and Logic7 ON * : it clearly shows that sub frequencies below 63Hz are not there 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

this convinced us to connect not only Fronts but also the originary sub channel. (picture not available now)


I have also this, showing the effect of LOGIC7 : *Processing ON and LOGIC7 OFF*

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

after some listening tests my installer says that it lacks dynamic peaks, as if ms-8 is making some dynamic compression .. 

hope in your comments and suggestions


----------



## VP Electricity

I don't know of any time that anyone has said that a signal that was only aboive 80 Hz would be enough for a JBL MS-8 to "create" bass. Of COURSE you need to connect your subs in such a case, if that measurement was electrical

Are your measurements pictured acoustic (using a microphone) or electrical (measuring the signal on a speaker lead, for example)?

Measuring the electrical output of the MS-8 after acoustic tuning doesn't make much sense. Measuring the output of an MS-8 after OEM signal "normalization", but before acoustic tuning, seems more interesting to me. 

Few of the effects of Logic 7 seem to be equalization. Time and steering seem to be most of what it does.


----------



## AdamS

TPMS said:


> Andy, just wanted to let you and anybody interested, know about the progress in having ms-8 optimally set-up in Mercedes with Harman audio and 7.1 environment.
> 
> ...
> 
> hope in your comments and suggestions


A couple things...

To measure with Logic7 On, please ensure left and right have uncorrelated pink noise sequences. You should probably measure with Logic7 off first.

Split the problem into 2. 

Try putting your stimulus into MS-8's Aux in and do a measurement. This will tell you how well the acoustic EQ is behaving by itself, independent of the UnEQ (signal summing). Report the result.


----------



## TPMS

VP Electricity said:


> I don't know of any time that anyone has said that a signal that was only aboive 80 Hz would be enough for a JBL MS-8 to "create" bass. Of COURSE you need to connect your subs in such a case, if that measurement was electrical
> 
> I am not inventing anything... just too lazy to search all ms-8 pages to let you believe it.
> 
> Are your measurements pictured acoustic (using a microphone) or electrical (measuring the signal on a speaker lead, for example)?
> 
> Measuring the electrical output of the MS-8 after acoustic tuning doesn't make much sense. Measuring the output of an MS-8 after OEM signal "normalization", but before acoustic tuning, seems more interesting to me.
> 
> Few of the effects of Logic 7 seem to be equalization. Time and steering seem to be most of what it does.



yes, RTA is from using a microphone.


----------



## TPMS

AdamS said:


> A couple things...
> 
> To measure with Logic7 On, please ensure left and right have uncorrelated pink noise sequences. You should probably measure with Logic7 off first.
> 
> Logic7 Off is the last graph. about correlation between left and right, will ask.
> 
> 
> Split the problem into 2.
> sorry, but what "problem" do you mean ? I did not say I'm having a specific problem .. concerning the sub signal, problem was solved by connecting it to ms-8 input. after that, everything is nearly OK
> 
> 1. Try putting your stimulus into MS-8's Aux in and do a measurement. This will tell you how well the acoustic EQ is behaving by itself, independent of the UnEQ (signal summing). Report the result.
> we already did calibration while skipping "input setup" when my HU was not tweaked for yielding that 1Volt necessary to proceed with output setup.
> result was not awful, but not very nice.
> 
> 2. Disconnect your speakers (or amps) temporarily. Set up your system as Front only, 1-ways, subsonic frequency of 20 Hz. Run a complete setup. Then disable processing and Logic7. Use your stimulus again, measure the electrical output of the left and right channels. This will tell you how well the signal summing is doing. It should be close to flat. Report the result.
> 
> The final result is basically a combination of these two results.


thanks, will try to have test2 done.


----------



## Hernan

AdamS said:


> It's not a 1/3 oct eq. It's a 1/3 oct graphic eq. This runs over the main acoustic eq.


Yes, i know that.
I'm trying to say that is very dificult and install dependant to get a smooth FR in a car even with a processor like the B1 or 701. Is difficult, sometimes imposible and very time consuming.

I'm asking about the MS8 capabilities of getting the FR on target within +-3dB with its powerfull auto EQ.

I understand that you could still draw your own curve with the 1/3 EQ after autotuning is done.


----------



## nrubenstein

Just bought my second MS-8. *sigh* Couldn't not have it in both cars.

That said, I would comment that it seems extremely foolish not to put controls on the display. I HATEHATEHATEHATEHATE having to use a remote. Hate it. It's a car, there's absolutely no reason why I should ever want to use a remote in it. Worse yet, it's something for me to lose.


----------



## ErinH

I feel the complete opposite. Unless it's touch screen, I want a remote. Otherwise you likely get the short end of the stick because in order to fit buttons to navigate the screen, you have to have a larger display. 

personal preference.


----------



## D1g1tal V3n0m

Having a remote is not a big deal. Most buttons mounted to a display unit like that are cheap and not very sensitive to keep overall cost down plus as said makes the unit larger.


----------



## nrubenstein

If they wanted to, the display unit is easily large enough to get buttons on to. If more space is really necessary, a little deeper won't make any difference. (I completely agree that making the display unit larger across is undesirable.)


----------



## 14642

TPMS said:


> Andy, just wanted to let you and anybody interested, know about the progress in having ms-8 optimally set-up in Mercedes with Harman audio and 7.1 environment.
> 
> must say, as first thing, that this ms-8 is not so easy to get set-up correctly .. my installer is indeed happier than me that the fine tune is not that "automatic", even if I am also enjoying the processespecially because after one week seems we are now having quite good results
> 
> this is the RTA from the *stock HK audio system, with only Front channels *operating (and ms-8 not connected)
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> the graph shows that stock processing was not that bad, except for a dip around 1- 1.25KHz.
> interestingly, it also shows that bass from fronts channels got as low as 80Hz.
> unfortunately, contrary to the belief, it was NOT enough for MS-8 to create a proper sub-signal.
> 
> this graph shows *the curve AFTER MS-8 and INPUT SETUP *(i.e. with Processing OFF and L7 OFF): as I understand it, it is just the result of cleaning and summing of the signal operated by MS-8 :
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> It shows that some sub frequencies had been created by ms-8 ... but weak, as under 50Hz it stays below 75db.
> Further, the graph is a bit weird... maybe you can comment on this ..
> 
> a further proof we have here, after calibration, with *PROCESSING ON and Logic7 ON *: it clearly shows that sub frequencies below 63Hz are not there
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> this convinced us to connect not only Fronts but also the originary sub channel. (picture not available now)
> 
> 
> I have also this, showing the effect of LOGIC7 : *Processing ON and LOGIC7 OFF*
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> after some listening tests my installer says that it lacks dynamic peaks, as if ms-8 is making some dynamic compression ..
> 
> hope in your comments and suggestions


OK. Measuring the acoustic output of the system with procesing and L7 off isn't particularly revealing of anything except some coarse approximation of what the system MIGHT sound like if the factory head unit had no EQ and included whatever crossovers you happen to be using to divide the signal to whatever speakers you've installed. That doesn't matter. If you want to find out the results of the signal conditioning part of MS-8, you'd need to measure the sum of the electrical outputs with processing off. 

My siggestion about not conecting the sub was intended as a solution for systems where adding the sub produces an overabundance of bass that can't be flattened by MS-8's EQ. Additionally, some factory systems include a hige overlap between the subwoofer's frequency band and the fronts. Adam's IS250 does this and it sux. Disconnecting the sub from the input helps that system a lot.

Also, if you're using a single microphone position to make these measurements, there's little chance that what you see is an accurate representation of what you hear above about 500Hz. Below that, it's probably reasonably representative of what you hear. 

Adam is right. If you want to measure the frequency response of the system, you MUST use uncorrelated pink noise. That will energize all channels through L7. Mono pink noise will steer center, so left and right will be attenuated and there will be no output from the sides or rears. MS-8's input signal conditioning is intended only to flatten the system so that L7 can steer effectively, That means that the midrange and high frequencies have to be reasonably flat and in phase. Correcting delay is far more important than correcting frequency response for this. The rest of the EQ may be fixed in the output EQ. What we hear is all that matters.

If you want to check MS-8's tuning against the target curve I've described, you'll need to replicate the measurement with some kind of binaural mic with a correction filter that would cause the measurement to correlate with a single mic in an anechoic chamber for a known and identical sound source. This isn't so easy. 

While I'm impressed with the effort on this forum to double check the accuracy of MS-8, there's more to it that measuring with an iPhone or a PC program and a single mic. 

VP Electricity is right. L7 affects the frequency response very little, although you may measure changes depending on the pink noise you use and the size of your center channel. Processing off eliminates MS-8's acoustic EQ and time alignment. Crossovers remain. 

If you really want to check input signal conditioning's performance, there's a way to do it, but you'll have to figure it out. For me to tell you would break my promise not to divulge the required testing method because of a certain challenge.


Marco, clearly, your system lacks bass. That may be because the subwoofer input isn't hooked up and it appears that the front crossover is about 100Hz and 2nd order. I suggest connecting the subwoofer output of your system to MS-8's input channels 7 and or 8 and running setup again. 

Finally, MS-8 doesn't include any dynamic range compression.


----------



## 14642

nrubenstein said:


> If they wanted to, the display unit is easily large enough to get buttons on to. If more space is really necessary, a little deeper won't make any difference. (I completely agree that making the display unit larger across is undesirable.)


There are a couple of reasons for a remote. Sitting in the back seat and running acoustic calibration would be more difficult if the only buttons were on the display. Also, providing a remote makes it possible to mount the display out of arms reach--which opens up placement possibilities. We included the flush and surface mounting kit so you could mount the remote in a convenient locations. Also, the display would be larger if we included the buttons.


----------



## TPMS

Hello, Andy 
thank you for your reply and for your patience !

about Sub/Front it was indeed crossed at 80Hz.

thanks also to VPElectricity and AdamS for your comments and inputs.

by posting the RTa with L7 ON and OFF I didn't want to mean anything differnet than just show it for possible comments.

about all these RTA graphs, I understand that it is only an approximation and that it does not comprehensively shows all what you hear ...
in any case, even if rough, the third pic shows a normalization quite far from being flat .

as i already told, things are much better after having connected also sub signal to the RCA input of MS-8. this, at least, in my particular application. 
we tried without, in a first instance because, iirc, it was said that even if ms-8 remained with 8 input jacks (because it was originally designed that way) it had indeed showed a better performance if NOT connecting all 8 channels and avoid connecting rears and sides; also avoid connecting center and, possibly, avoid also connecting any oem Sub signal.

I also understand that my application is not the simplest possible: it is a 7.1 system with 6 different amps. we have: 
- Fronts (3 ways driven by 2 amps with possibility to set filters on a really wide range and passive between mids and tweets);
- Center 2 way with MT23 tweet and a specific amp for it;
- sides 2 way passive and a specific amp;
- rears 2 way passive and a specific amp
- Sub: an Ultimo 2 Ohms driven by a Monoblock

but this is the system MS-8 was indeed intended for ! and this is the reason why I firmly wanted it as a completion of this project.

MS-8 setup needs to be learned. you have to try different possibilities, oftenly just by a guess work: moving your head more or less to left or right; forward or backward ... tweaking each damn gain screw you may have ..

what I still love mostly is that, finally you don't need to sit tweaking through a notebook.
what i fear mostly is that, after some much hard work at getting the optimal setup, I will not have a way to permanently save it ! 

As my installer puts it we are now arrived in the top ranking of an hypothetical SQrace .. but not yet among first three positions.

See you on next progress 


ps: .... *after connecting Sub input* things are quite good. here with logic7 off 


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## mastermind

Am I the only one who has seen severely different system tonalities when adjusting the "seat" that the MS8 is optimizing for? Changing that setting doesn't just change the stereo imaging...there are *drastic* changes to system tone.

I'm still running through tweaking with TrueRTA and the like, so maybe I just haven't arrived yet.


----------



## 14642

Yes, there will be differences in frequency response too. IF you have a center, you should notice some diference between the frequency response for Driver and Front, but the difference between driver and passenger will probably be pretty big when no center is connected. This is what happens when you have the ability to run throgh all the possible iterations instead of just one or two.


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## nrubenstein

Feature suggestion/request:

Display frequencies where the MS-8 has had to apply significant boost. Even better, it'd be nice to get the option to manually dial that back.

For example, I've got a hole in the RF woofer right around 1,100Hz. The MS-8 appears to be applying massive EQ boost there, and it would be nice if I could have the option of accepting a hole while I look for the problem, rather than enjoying massive distortion if I turn the volume up over 95dB. That said, even displaying where potential problem areas are could make troubleshooting easier. Certainly, it'd be simpler than trying to pinpoint them with RTA after the fact.

You could call this a system troubleshooting screen, or something. Or make it an easter egg.


----------



## Grim0013

nrubenstein said:


> Feature suggestion/request:
> 
> Display frequencies where the MS-8 has had to apply significant boost. Even better, it'd be nice to get the option to manually dial that back.
> 
> For example, I've got a hole in the RF woofer right around 1,100Hz. The MS-8 appears to be applying massive EQ boost there, and it would be nice if I could have the option of accepting a hole while I look for the problem, rather than enjoying massive distortion if I turn the volume up over 95dB. That said, even displaying where potential problem areas are could make troubleshooting easier. Certainly, it'd be simpler than trying to pinpoint them with RTA after the fact.
> 
> You could call this a system troubleshooting screen, or something. Or make it an easter egg.



That sounds handy. I'd also like to see a "gain calibration" phase. Like, it does a quick sweep and then tells you, for example:
1: 96 dB
2: 97 dB
3: 89 dB
4: 88 dB
5: 99 dB
6: --
7: --
8: --

or even something simpler, like:
Chan. 1,2,5 Good
Chan. 3,4 Low
Chan. 6,7,8 No Output

You go, tweak some gains, and it runs it again. Just seems like I would rather have MS8 tell me to adjust gains in this situation, instead of dropping the output of the hotter channels to match the lower ones. That is assuming I have more headroom in the 3,4 amp to play with, of course.

....or I could just be bored and have nothing better to do than come up with low use-case feature requests.


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## SSSnake

> Am I the only one who has seen severely different system tonalities when adjusting the "seat" that the MS8 is optimizing for?


I am seeing drastic tonality changes and varying imaging locations from simple recalibrations. These could be (and likely somewhat are) caused by a slightly different seating position/head orientation but are far from what I expected. I am going through the system to find things that may be causing variations/instability but so far I have found nothing significant. 

So far the MS-8 has been great at getting the first 80% of the tune done but as always the last 20% has been allusive. The difficulty here is there are limited tools to address the last 20%. Man a back door through the USB port to examine and possibly tweak filter settings would be a god sent.


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## ErinH

agreed.

if we are requesting sneak features, I'd really like to be able to change crossover points and re-run calibration without having to go through the channel mapping. 
Or, at least have a screen that displays current crossover points. Sometimes I forget what I had tried previously and want to try something else. I could write them down, but I'm lazy.


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## mastermind

SSSnake said:


> So far the MS-8 has been great at getting the first 80% of the tune done but as always the last 20% has been allusive. The difficulty here is there are limited tools to address the last 20%. Man a back door through the USB port to examine and possibly tweak filter settings would be a god sent.


Maybe, but, thus far, I feel the MS-8 is only doing about 20%, not 80%. My system sounds significantly better with processing and Logic7 defeated, leaving only it's crossovers in the signal path.

I'm attributing this to my lack of knowledge about how the product is supposed to work and my lack of experience in using it. Hopefully I can get smart pretty soon. :surprised:


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## eviling

I really don't feel like reading the last 30 pages ive missed, could sombody tell me now that this thing has been on the market for a bit, if they can verafie wheather it can handle a high voltage RCA input? I have 8v pre outs of my deck, I was wondering if this unit could handle that, i heard sombody say something about another sound processing unit being rated the same way but being able to handle the higher voltages, i was woundering if this is true, from what i understand it's rated at like 2v, has anybody hooked it up to a higher output like 8v rca's?


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## 14642

mastermind said:


> Maybe, but, thus far, I feel the MS-8 is only doing about 20%, not 80%. My system sounds significantly better with processing and Logic7 defeated, leaving only it's crossovers in the signal path.
> 
> I'm attributing this to my lack of knowledge about how the product is supposed to work and my lack of experience in using it. Hopefully I can get smart pretty soon. :surprised:


I'd love to help answer the hidden questions here, but it isn't possible without more information. What aspects of the tuning don't seem right, to you? Also, what the rest of the system? MS-8 needs a baseline system that it can improve and there are a few things that it can't deal with. Speakers wired in reverse polarity is one condition that MS-8 doesn't fix. Frequency bands between amp channels (with external amps) that play at very different levels is another condition that can make MS-8 less effective. Finally, signal sweeps that are too loud don't work either. 

It's an autotune and the target is appropriate to win IASCA and MECA sound Q competitions and has made my customers happy for 25 years. The net is pretty wide. If you're like 90% of listeners, MS-8 should be damn close to pleasant for you. If it isn't, there are 2 options: 1) You aren't like 90% of listeners and the target isn't appropriate or 2) something in your system causes MS-8 to barf. 

If #1 applies to you, and you can't use the additional tuning tools to make it sound the way you want it to sound, then you should try something else. If #2 applies to you, try to describe the performance in terms that I can understand so I can help you get things going. 

I'm nearing my wit's end with some of these posts. It's like I'm passing out the juciest, sweetest oranges on Earth and getting responses like, "Damn, that orange was nasty. Well, it wasn't nasty. The inside was pretty sweet." 

To which I reply, "Hey, did you peel it before you ate it?"

And in response, I recieve, "I tried to disolve the rind by gluing pennies to it and soaking the whole thing in muriatic acid because someone on howtoeatoranges.com forum said that would work. The rind was gone, but it didn't taste good."


----------



## distronic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> "I tried to disolve the rind by gluing pennies to it and soaking the whole thing in muriatic acid because someone on howtoeatoranges.com forum said that would work. The rind was gone, but it didn't taste good."


:lol:

Please don't stop with the help. I think its awesome that you have contributed so much time to respond to others to help get things straightened out. Your help is appreciated.


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## ErinH

did some actoustic measuring of the ms-8 to get an idea of what the functions do. This is NOT the ms-8's base tune. This is based off my own tune (green) and then adjustments were made. Mic was in driver's seat pointed forward. Only checking relationship changes, so no need to worry about spatial averaging and all that jazz.

Andy, if you would like to verify what I'm seeing I'd appreciate it. 

My crossover points are:
Sub/Midbass = 73hz, 24dB
Midbass/Midrange = 280hz, 24dB
Midrange/Tweeter = 4350hz, 24dB

Base Tune is in GREEN in every picture below. The other color(s) is the adjustment.

*Subwoofer adjustment.* (Purple)
Looks like it starts dropping the sub at 125hz. 










*Treble adjustment.* (Yellow)
Looks like it starts around 400hz, with the biggest variance being starting at about 2k-3khz and going to 20khz.










*Mid adjustment.* (Orange)
60hz - 6000hz. Biggest difference from 300-2khz.










*Bass adjustment.* (Teal)
20hz - 1200hz. Biggest difference starting from about 250hz and going down.









I assume all of these adjustments are shelving filters?
All these adjustments were about 12 'clicks' (cursor movements) down, just to see what would happen. I'm sure more or less adjustment would result in more/less change outside of a specific target band (whatever that may be for each type adjustment).


----------



## 14642

Bass, treble and Subwoofer are shelves. The subwoofer shelf uses a variable slope. Midrange is not a shelf. The graph for bass control doesn't look right to me. You might try reducing the volume of MS-8 and remeasuring.

What kind of pink noise are you using? Mono or "stereo" (uncorrelated)?


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## ErinH

It's just a quick sweep, generated from true. To be honest, I can't even recall if its uncorrelated or not. I think it's stereo, though. 

I'll check into remeasuring. 

The bass control may look odd because I've got the sub amp's LPF turned on @ 60hz to give me a bit of extra cut on the sub due to a resonance issue I have.


----------



## mastermind

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'd love to help answer the hidden questions here, but it isn't possible without more information. What aspects of the tuning don't seem right, to you? Also, what the rest of the system? MS-8 needs a baseline system that it can improve and there are a few things that it can't deal with. Speakers wired in reverse polarity is one condition that MS-8 doesn't fix. Frequency bands between amp channels (with external amps) that play at very different levels is another condition that can make MS-8 less effective. Finally, signal sweeps that are too loud don't work either.
> 
> It's an autotune and the target is appropriate to win IASCA and MECA sound Q competitions and has made my customers happy for 25 years. The net is pretty wide. If you're like 90% of listeners, MS-8 should be damn close to pleasant for you. If it isn't, there are 2 options: 1) You aren't like 90% of listeners and the target isn't appropriate or 2) something in your system causes MS-8 to barf.
> 
> If #1 applies to you, and you can't use the additional tuning tools to make it sound the way you want it to sound, then you should try something else. If #2 applies to you, try to describe the performance in terms that I can understand so I can help you get things going.


I hear you and believe you. That's why I'm not throwing stones yet. I was just posting my initial impressions, caveated by the fact that I've only spent a few hours with it.

I'm thinking I'm in category #2, so I'll fill in some details, and maybe you can tell me where to start.

Vehicle: Honda Ridgeline
Head Unit: Kenwood DDX896
Amps: JL XD600/6 for 2-way front and 1-way rear, XD600/1 for sub
Front Speakers: Focal K2 130 KR in factory locations
Rear Speakers: Focal 165 CVX in factory locations
Sub: Stock factory 8" (waiting patiently for my SI BM mkIII)

I'm using RCA low-level outputs from the HU to feed the MS-8, which seems to work just fine. I've setup the MS-8 crossovers at 70-80Hz for sub-mid and 3.5kHz for mid-tweet.

To describe how the system sounds, I equate it to playing a CD through a 1980's boombox with only a single 4" speaker and mic'ing that speaker to provide the signal you hear.

Things I've tried to improve the sound:

1) Running through acoustic measurement at a variety of levels (-50, -45, -40, -20)
2) Using TrueRTA, an ECM8000, and pink noise to set amp gains to most closely approximate the curve that the MS-8 shoots for.
3) Turning Logic7 on and off

I'm mostly still in analysis stage trying to figure out what's going on. I'm sure the orange is great, I'm just trying to figure out what I have to do to realize the potential.

I have not re-verified correct polarity, so I'm going to start doing that now. Hopefully that's been the culprit all along. I don't believe amp gains are incorrect, as I've tried using an RTA as well as simple audible methods to try to get a level match. None of that seemed to make a difference.

If I've left something out, just let me know.


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## 14642

Ahhh...now we're getting somewhere. Turn the gains all the way down on your amps for this experiment. Check speaker polarity--especially front midrange. 

Try this--process of elimination:

1. Choose skip input setup, since you're using an aftermarket radio. 
2. Set up the system as a 2-way stereo system using only the front speakers.
3. Set the "subsonic" filter for the front at 30Hz and use your selection for the tweeters.
4. Run Acoustic calibration. 
5. Go into the Audio controls menu and turn L7 off. 
6. Listen and make sure you have a strong phantom center image. If you don't, re-run acoustic calibration at a lower volume level until you do. 
7. Listen for frequency response, but don't pay much attention to the bass. Once there's a good center, the frequency response of this should be good.
8 Add the Subwoofer. Your crossover points are probably OK. 
9. Run acoustic calibration at exactly the same level as before. The sub should be audible, but not loud. 
10. Listen again. If the frequency response sux, reduce MS-8's volume control and re-calibrate. If there's too much bass but the rest sounds good, try increasing the gain of the sub amp and re-run acoustic calibration.
11. Add rear speakers (sides in MS-8's menu).
12. Turn all gains up by the same amount until the system is loud enough and doesn't make a bunch of noise.


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## mastermind

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Ahhh...now we're getting somewhere. Turn the gains all the way down on your amps for this experiment. Check speaker polarity--especially front midrange.
> 
> Try this--process of elimination:
> 
> 1. Choose skip input setup, since you're using an aftermarket radio.
> 2. Set up the system as a 2-way stereo system using only the front speakers.
> 3. Set the "subsonic" filter for the front at 30Hz and use your selection for the tweeters.
> 4. Run Acoustic calibration.
> 5. Go into the Audio controls menu and turn L7 off.
> 6. Listen and make sure you have a strong phantom center image. If you don't, re-run acoustic calibration at a lower volume level until you do.
> 7. Listen for frequency response, but don't pay much attention to the bass. Once there's a good center, the frequency response of this should be good.
> 8 Add the Subwoofer. Your crossover points are probably OK.
> 9. Run acoustic calibration at exactly the same level as before. The sub should be audible, but not loud.
> 10. Listen again. If the frequency response sux, reduce MS-8's volume control and re-calibrate. If there's too much bass but the rest sounds good, try increasing the gain of the sub amp and re-run acoustic calibration.
> 11. Add rear speakers (sides in MS-8's menu).
> 12. Turn all gains up by the same amount until the system is loud enough and doesn't make a bunch of noise.


Awesome. I'll do this after I re-verify polarity and report back.


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## 14642

bikinpunk said:


> It's just a quick sweep, generated from true. To be honest, I can't even recall if its uncorrelated or not. I think it's stereo, though.
> 
> I'll check into remeasuring.
> 
> The bass control may look odd because I've got the sub amp's LPF turned on @ 60hz to give me a bit of extra cut on the sub due to a resonance issue I have.


Try measuring with uncorrelated pink noise instead of sweeps.


----------



## thehatedguy

I'm pretty happy with the base tune. I did do some tweaking to the low low stuff to get more bass without over driving the center (it's playing down to 65 hertz). I can run the seat all the way through the motions and get no noticeable difference in center position. The only thing was running the calibration with my arm rest up...WAY too much bass. With the arm rest down, the bass is great...even crossed at 100 hertz.

But to get the most out of this thing, you really really need to use all of its goodies- which means center and full range rears. I was playing it with the factory rears, but being they were biamped from the factory I was only using the midbass part...adding the tweeters back there further stabilized the image and height. Adding a good sized center...wow, now that is cooking.

You guys can't forget the basics of car audio even with as great as the processor is.

Next up is to do 3 way fronts...just to see what all Andy is talking about with beaming since I have 2 way fronts.


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## mastermind

mastermind said:


> Awesome. I'll do this after I re-verify polarity and report back.


Chalk up another win for Andy...as if there was any doubt.

I would also put this down as proof that I should have done more of the work on this install instead of letting the shop do it. My front right mid driver was wired phase reversed. In addition to that, after doing a little listening, I think my brand new Focal tweeter on the front left is already blown. Wow...that didn't last long.

Fixing the front right mid phase helped out quite a bit. Of course, a blown tweeter isn't going to help the MS-8 do it's job any. If it ain't one thing, it's five.

Kudos and +10 bonus points to Andy.


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## alachua

I've tried searching the thread, but I cannot find if this was posted:

Are measurements from multiple seating locations summed to create a curve for a single location? Would taking measurements from both the driver's and passenger's seat result in a better driver position tune?

I think my install is fighting me right now, I really need to get my tweeters out from behind the door panels and into somewhere that is aimed somewhere other than my ample belly without a hard plastic grill immediately in front of them.


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## 14642

For the driver's position, the measurements made in the driver's seat are theonly ones that matter. same for passenger. For "Front", MS-8 searches for an EQ setting that most closely matches the target for both front seats. With a center channel and a little adjustment of the center channel level (up a notch or two), I've found that the center image is good in both seats. This is what Gary used to win SBN a couple of years ago.


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## alachua

Excellent. I am having some trouble with my highs pulling pretty dramatically to the right side, a function of the install I believe, so I wanted to make sure as I do some trial and error to fix it I was giving the unit all the data I could to help. Unfortunately, I am a ways away from having the time, money and skill to do a center channel, even though the Impreza really is built for one with the huge removable clock on top of the dash.


----------



## NSTar

So are we expecting software upgrades for futher fine tuning? I have the DNX8120... will this offer more tuning or allow me to control each individual speakers?


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## 14642

NSTar said:


> So are we expecting software upgrades for futher fine tuning? I have the DNX8120... will this offer more tuning or allow me to control each individual speakers?


No. We don't have plans to add fine tuning options, but when and if we find opportunitites to upgrade the performance of the automatic functions, we'll do that.


----------



## VP Electricity

NSTar said:


> So are we expecting software upgrades for futher fine tuning? I have the DNX8120... will this offer more tuning or allow me to control each individual speakers?


The MS-8 reminds me of the 4WD CR-V I used to have. No levers, no switches, no buttons, and no 4WD indicators. If I needed 4WD, it appeared, and when I no longer did, it disappears. 

If I needed a lever, or a light, I should have bought something else. 

There is no compelling evidence that JBL built the wrong product - so there's no motive for them to change it into something else. IT can control every speaker, but that doesn't mean that YOU can


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## mastermind

After spending all afternoon trying the tricks that Andy recommended, I've made some progress. I found out that my system has not one, but three huge holes in frequency response (125Hz, 450Hz, and 5kHz), which certainly doesn't help any. The distortion I thought I heard from my tweeter I now think is just the MS-8 trying to do something drastic around 5k, as there's literally a -15dB dip in response there at least. If I disable processing on the MS-8, the "distortion" goes away. Obviously, the system problems are beyond the limits of what the MS-8 can correct.

In all my listening, though, I do have to say that having the MS-8 in the signal path only acting as a crossover leaves everything sounding a tad gritty in the top end. It's like the sound you hear when listening to the same recording with a decreasing bit depth. No combination of head unit or MS-8 volume would get rid of it. I thought I might have been overdriving the low-level inputs, as my head unit has 5V outs, but that's not the case.

All of which brings me to a couple questions:

1) Is the volume control on the MS-8 an analog pre-amp level, a post-processing digital level, or something else?

2) Has anyone else noted the top end of their system lacking smoothness after adding an MS-8?

I'm still not throwing stones, Andy, so don't worry. Just trying to get to the bottom of a couple system issues and learn more about the MS-8 along the way.


----------



## VP Electricity

mastermind said:


> After spending all afternoon trying the tricks that Andy recommended, I've made some progress. I found out that my system has not one, but three huge holes in frequency response (125Hz, 450Hz, and 5kHz), which certainly doesn't help any. The distortion I thought I heard from my tweeter I now think is just the MS-8 trying to do something drastic around 5k, as there's literally a -15dB dip in response there at least. If I disable processing on the MS-8, the "distortion" goes away. Obviously, the system problems are beyond the limits of what the MS-8 can correct.
> 
> In all my listening, though, I do have to say that having the MS-8 in the signal path only acting as a crossover leaves everything sounding a tad gritty in the top end. It's like the sound you hear when listening to the same recording with a decreasing bit depth. No combination of head unit or MS-8 volume would get rid of it. I thought I might have been overdriving the low-level inputs, as my head unit has 5V outs, but that's not the case.
> 
> All of which brings me to a couple questions:
> 
> 1) Is the volume control on the MS-8 an analog pre-amp level, a post-processing digital level, or something else?
> 
> 2) Has anyone else noted the top end of their system lacking smoothness after adding an MS-8?
> 
> I'm still not throwing stones, Andy, so don't worry. Just trying to get to the bottom of a couple system issues and learn more about the MS-8 along the way.


mastermind, if you find yourself in Portland at a beer festival or anything, shoot me a message. Love to take a look at what you've got going on there. 

Ken


----------



## eviling

so i never saw any response to my question if 8v's is to much for this unit as an input?


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## ibanzil

The ms-8 has an input setup you run. Put the setup disk in your cd player, play it and watch the ms-8 screen to say input over, turn down youre cd player until the ms-8 says the input level is good. Any headunit will work but you have to know where the input level is too high from the setup process.


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## VP Electricity

eviling said:


> so i never saw any response to my question if 8v's is to much for this unit as an input?


It's been answered a while back. I will summarize to say that on the RCA inputs 8V is too much, but that even with "8V" HU, Andy isn't too worried about it. The setup described doesn't really speak to an aftermarket-HU RCA in application.


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## 14642

The RCA inputs will clip at 2.8V. You can run up to 15V on the speaker level inputs. Of course, the output voltage of your head unit depends on the level at which the music was recorded and the volume control position. 

What head unit outpus 8V and why?


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## StormBringer

The MS-8 has really improved the performance of my factory installed system - 2007 BMW 328XI E92 HiFi. The bass has really come to life. I've had it install since the end of May and love it. It is exhilarating when my friends comment about how awesome the sound is.

Here are a few things I had to do:

1) I have had to adjust the fader heavy to the rear speakers for the sound to have any depth. With the fader @ 50:50, the sound was just coming from the front door panels. Unfortunately, heavy rear fader limits how loud the system will go before it starts popping the rears.

2) Before setup/calibration I put the head unit bass, treble, & fade to defaults (or middle) and turn down/off the automatic volume control. I made sure I did this for each of the inputs - radio, cd, aux.

3) Perform tone and equalization while driving - bring a friend as this dangerous to perform by yourself. When I initially set things up, I was sitting in the car, in the garage, with the engine off. As soon as I drove it down the road I lost almost all the low end.

4) I clipped the fronts @ 350 Hz to eliminate popping and brought the woofers up to compensate (not sure if this was the right thing to do for the woofers, but it did resolve the front popping). There didn't seem to be any way to adjust this on rears.

There are a few things I would like to see added:

1) As commented by someone else on this thread, I wish there was a summary screen so that I can see the current settings (slope/db/fade/tone/sub). This way I know what they are before I recalibrate.

2) I wish there was an option to quiet down the midrange and highs as the volume goes up. It seems as I turn the volume up I am always having to turn the treble down.

3) It would be nice if there were some equalizer presets. Most MP3 players have an option to pick rock, jazz, classical, etc. and it automatically adjusts the equalizer. At least it would be a starting point and not have to adjust all 31 settings right from the start.

Good job JBL – I now love the sound system as much or even more than the car.


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## VP Electricity

StormBringer said:


> 1) I have had to adjust the fader heavy to the rear speakers for the sound to have any depth. With the fader @ 50:50, the sound was just coming from the front door panels. Unfortunately, heavy rear fader limits how loud the system will go before it starts popping the rears..


As somebody whose E91 328ix has plenty of depth without any rear speakers at all, I'm interested to hear you explain what you mean.


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## StormBringer

With the MS-8 fader @ 50:50 the music sounded like it was only coming from the front doors and more of it from the driver than the passenger side. As I adjusted the fader more to the rears, the music sounded as if it were outside the car and all encompassing. It's as if I was sitting in the middle of the music. Hopefully I am expressing myself clearly; it's kind of like trying to explain the color red.


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## VP Electricity

StormBringer said:


> With the MS-8 fader @ 50:50 the music sounded like it was only coming from the front doors and more of it from the driver than the passenger side. As I adjusted the fader more to the rears, the music sounded as if it were outside the car and all encompassing. It's as if I was sitting in the middle of the music. Hopefully I am expressing myself clearly; it's kind of like trying to explain the color red.


Fortunately, the color red has Pantone numbers and specific wavelengths of light and other quantified means of description. 

Unfortunately, it sounds like your calibration was off if it was biased to one side. Also, being enveloped in the music sounds like the evil of rear speakers to me. Doesn't sound like stereo at all. In my system, the depth is in front of me, not behind. 

Did you calibrate for both front, in a HiFi car? You need to add the center grille and frame and a center speaker do get good results for both f seats in my testing.


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## 14642

When you calibrated while driving, who was wearing the mic? Ifthe passenger, then it's no wonder the sound is biased to the left side. Or, the sweeps were too loud. You shold get a strong center image, if the calibration is correct and if the person sitting in the driver's seat was wearing the mics during driver's seat calibration. 

With L7 on, the sound will be biased to the front. The rear will play only ambient information recorded in the music. If you don't have a center, turn L7 off and the rear speakers will play the same information as the front--they'll play louder.


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## chefhow

Andy, what's the return policy on the MS8? I just scored a 59.5 today after finally getting it installed with the a center and the whole nine yards.


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## eviling

VP Electricity said:


> It's been answered a while back. I will summarize to say that on the RCA inputs 8V is too much, but that even with "8V" HU, Andy isn't too worried about it. The setup described doesn't really speak to an aftermarket-HU RCA in application.


well people want sound processing with out low level inputs from stock decks too :| i knew it had been speced at liek 2 volt in, and i havnt checked out the thread since before release and wasn't about to read 2000 posts  lol, but anyhow, sombody said something about the software being able to figuire out where the voltage is on your deck at what levels and just not to exceed that and to use the MS8 head unit to ajust the volume?


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## DAT

chefhow said:


> Andy, what's the return policy on the MS8? I just scored a 59.5 today after finally getting it installed with the a center and the whole nine yards.


WOW your serious? Something isn't right. Because every car I have tested them in and Install one in was a huge improvement. I'd suggest finding someone local to you that can help you out.


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## thehatedguy

But Mic pulled a 87.5 with his car.


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## 14642

chefhow said:


> Andy, what's the return policy on the MS8? I just scored a 59.5 today after finally getting it installed with the a center and the whole nine yards.


MS-8 doesn't come with a MECA score guarantee, but I'd like you to be happy with it if possible and I'm willing to help. Scan your scoresheet and email it to me. Let's see if we can figure out what's up.


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## StormBringer

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> When you calibrated while driving, who was wearing the mic?


Calibrated was the wrong term - I had to adjusting the equalizer, sub level, fader, etc. while driving. When I went out on the road, after setting all this to my liking in the garage, it lost a lot.


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## 14642

StormBringer said:


> Calibrated was the wrong term - I had to adjusting the equalizer, sub level, fader, etc. while driving. When I went out on the road, after setting all this to my liking in the garage, it lost a lot.


 
Oh. OK. I suggest recalibrating at a lower level if you're not getting a strong center image.


----------



## StormBringer

VP Electricity said:


> ...it sounds like your calibration was off if it was biased to one side. Also, being enveloped in the music sounds like the evil of rear speakers to me. Doesn't sound like stereo at all. In my system, the depth is in front of me, not behind.
> 
> Did you calibrate for both front, in a HiFi car? You need to add the center grille and frame and a center speaker do get good results for both f seats in my testing.



It is possible the calibration is off and I am unsure what you mean by both fronts. I probably went thru the setup and calibration a dozen time before I got things were I liked them. I do agree that installing a center speaker will improve result.

As for depth in front or behind, I think maybe it is a personal preference. I prefer to have the music all around me (depth) and not sound like it is coming from just the front (flat).

In any case it sounds great!


----------



## 14642

eviling said:


> well people want sound processing with out low level inputs from stock decks too :| i knew it had been speced at liek 2 volt in, and i havnt checked out the thread since before release and wasn't about to read 2000 posts  lol, but anyhow, sombody said something about the software being able to figuire out where the voltage is on your deck at what levels and just not to exceed that and to use the MS8 head unit to ajust the volume?


Who has an 8V deck? Before you chime in, please check to be sure that the deck has a DC/DC power supply in it somewhere, 'cause that's the only way you're gonna get that. Unless it's 8V peak to peak that they're calling 8V. In that case, it's 2.8V RMS and that will work fine with MS-8.


----------



## hallsc

The Eclipse CD7200 mkII is an "8V" deck. I have never measured the actual output of the HU, but that's the way it's advertised. If it is the 2.8V RMS it will makes things easier for me and my new MS-8.

Andy, quick question about leaving the HU in full pass. For ridiculuous peaks or holes in a system (so extreme that the MS-8 might not be able to easily or fully correct them, say 10-12 dB one way or the other), would it HURT to use your HU's EQ to attempt to smooth things out prior to being sent to the MS-8? I understand that it's supposed to be unnecessary, but I was curious as to whether it would actually be doing anything negative assuming that the person using the HU's EQ wasn't exacerbating said peaks/holes?


----------



## EricP72

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Lycan is right.
> 
> In fact, I'd go so far as to say that a mono (L+R) center does more to screw up a good image than to enhance it, unless there's some additional trickery involved in the processing, like crosstalk cancellation, but that isn't available in car audio products.
> 
> For 2-channel listening, a matrix processor (PLII or L7) is the ticket, although getting used to listening to music the way it was recorded takes a little while. We're so used to listening to different pathlengths that many of us like the sense of space that those phase anomalies provide.
> 
> I did a demo for a well know record producer several months ago of a car with a strong phantom center image and his response was "it sounds mono". the demo was of a track he mixed. We then went upstaris and I showed him exactly how much distinct left and right were actually in the track and he scratched his head.


of track for a minute but would said producer be the good Doctor? would be nice to know what he thought if it was him.


----------



## wiseman454

Andy, I have some questions.
I am running pro audio midbass drivers up front. B&C 10nw64's, very sensative
@ 97. 
Is matching the center's VOLUME just as important as the RANGE?
I am sure my center will go deeper than the pro mids but to get the center as loud, I was planning on running a "2.5" setup with two 6.5 drivers and a tweet. (I am blessed with a lot of center channel real estate)
Ditto for the mids in the doors. I want to run 2 Dayton dome mids per side to try and keep up with the B&C's.
Depending on who's research you read, the onset of comb/lobing and it's detrimental effects in vehicale may occur at .25 .5 or full wavelength.
I like it very loud and clear at times. I have been doubling the RMS of drivers for a loooong time.
I guess what I am getting at is.... Will having two drivers on one channel of the MS-8 foul the calibration process? 

ALSO, did I read that the MS-8 will dial everything back to the least loud pair of channels?
Given that we aren't as adept at hearing the classic midbass region, would a +5 to +9 db mis-match on the midbass be all that bad sounding?

just a little FYI here.
My 10" midbass drivers have an 8" cone area giving me beaming at 1700hz or so.
I was going to stretch them to 800-ish to meet the pair of dome mids.


----------



## michaelsil1

I'm having a problem with the Tweeter Amplifier shutting off after the unit warms up then it will cut back in after a while. I tried replacing the Amp yesterday and I'm still having the same issue.


----------



## jimbno1

JBL Experts and others please comment.

I purchased a MS-8 for processing in my truck. I have been lucky enough to obtain a used pair of 560GTi mids. I am thinking about mounting them in the A-Pillar area on the dash of my truck. And I have a pair of 660GTi mids also. 

Is there any way to purchase a single 560GTi mid for center channel duty? 

There not a lot of room to mount the 660GTi in the kick panel area. I know you have recommended door mounting of mids with MS-8 but I have to say I am skeptical. I hate it when vocals transition from Tweeter in dash to Mids in the door. It drives me batty. Plus I tend to block the door speaker with my leg. That is why I wanted to try the 560GTi in the A-pillar area.

I think I will need some professional help with the fiberglass especially for center channel. So I would like to avoid multiple changes in plans. Since truck is so wide PLD is lousy no matter what. 

So out of the following options what would you recommend? 

Option 1: 
This is the most simple to implement. This is what I am leaning towards. I could always upgrade to one of the other options if I don’t like it. Do I need a Center channel for single seat tuning? If I skip center channel, it is even simpler.

JBL 660GTi Mids in stock lower front door area (MS8 Crossover external amp)
Scanspeak D3004/620000 in A-Pillar (MS8 Crossover external amp)
Center JBL 560GTi and Scanspeak D3004/620000 (external amp crossover)
Rears stock off of MS-8 amps
Sub JL Stealthbox

Option 2: 
I would expect this would be the most dynamic solution. I could also add an 8” Midbass in the center console if I wanted to get wild. Obviously much more intensive in the install. And I do not have a center channel speaker to match the JBL 560GTi. I doubt I have room for the JBL 660GTi in the center but it might be possible. 

HAT L8 Midbass in stock lower front door area (MS8 Crossover external amp)
JBL 560GTi mids in A-Pillar Area (external amp crossover)
Scanspeak D3004/620000 in A-Pillar (external amp crossover)
Center (Need Mid) and Scanspeak D3004/620000 (external amp crossover)
Rears stock off of MS-8 amps
Sub JL Stealthbox

Option 3:
I would expect this would be the least dynamic solution due to smaller mids. But possibly more dynamic that option 1. My choice of 4” mids is pretty nice Exclusives, Alpine F1 Scan. I think I would need to add an 8” Midbass in the center console unless I wanted to negate the advantages of the 8” Midbass in the doors. Again very intensive in the install. 

HAT L8 Midbass in stock lower front door area (MS8 Crossover external amp)
4” mids in A-Pillar Area (external amp crossover)
Scanspeak D3004/620000 in A-Pillar (external amp crossover)
Center (Need Mid) and Scanspeak D3004/620000 (external amp crossover)
Rears stock off of MS-8 amps
Sub JL Stealthbox


----------



## AdamS

wiseman454 said:


> ALSO, did I read that the MS-8 will dial everything back to the least loud pair of channels?


That's not accurate. It's more complicated than that. It's a combination of matching to the loudest speaker and EQing to a reference level in a particular frequency range. Sometimes, the result will be louder and sometimes quieter.


----------



## Gundam

I've been messing with mines and I've run into a few issues:

1. I've noticed a lot of noise. It's pretty darn loud and really annoying when there's no music playing. 
2. BT handsfree calling is unusable
3. Navi audio is way low unless I setup my inputs to only include front speakers and subs. 
4. Almost non-existent bass.


BTW here are my channel settings:

1. Center (factory 3.25" powered by MS-8)
2. FL (Passive comps, mid and tweet, powered by aftermarket amp)
3. FR (Passive comps, mid and tweet, powered by aftermarket amp)
4. SL (Factory 3.5" midrange powered by aftermarket amp)
5. SR (Factory 3.5" midrange powered by aftermarket amp)
6. None
7. Sub 1 (12" IDQ powered by aftermarket amp)
8. Sub 2 (12" IDQ powered by aftermarket amp)


----------



## alachua

Gundam said:


> I've been messing with mines and I've run into a few issues:
> 
> 1. I've noticed a lot of noise. It's pretty darn loud and really annoying when there's no music playing.
> 2. BT handsfree calling is unusable
> 3. Navi audio is way low unless I setup my inputs to only include front speakers and subs.
> 4. Almost non-existent bass.
> 
> 
> BTW here are my channel settings:
> 
> 1. Center (factory 3.25" powered by MS-8)
> 2. FL (Passive comps, mid and tweet, powered by aftermarket amp)
> 3. FR (Passive comps, mid and tweet, powered by aftermarket amp)
> 4. SL (Factory 3.5" midrange powered by aftermarket amp)
> 5. SR (Factory 3.5" midrange powered by aftermarket amp)
> 6. None
> 7. Sub 1
> 8. Sub 2


What car is this installed in and what 'trim' factory radio is in the vehicle? You stated you are using the L/R and sub line from the factory radio, correct? Are the sound issues present with Logic7 enabled and disabled? How are the subs powered, and are they factory or aftermarket.

Have you considered running the SL/SR off the MS8 and using one of the amp channels to run the center channel? 

#3 is a bit confusing to me, are you using all the inputs on the MS8, or just F/R/Sub?


----------



## Gundam

alachua said:


> What car is this installed in and what 'trim' factory radio is in the vehicle? You stated you are using the L/R and sub line from the factory radio, correct? Are the sound issues present with Logic7 enabled and disabled? How are the subs powered, and are they factory or aftermarket.
> 
> Have you considered running the SL/SR off the MS8 and using one of the amp channels to run the center channel?
> 
> #3 is a bit confusing to me, are you using all the inputs on the MS8, or just F/R/Sub?


G37 sedan with OEM nav unit. Stock sound system is Bose. Sound issues are present with L7 enabled and disabled. Subs are aftermarket 12" IDQ's powered by a Polk Audio 5 channel amp which are also powering my front comps, and factory rears (with gains turned down). I will have to double check the inputs as I was not the one who installed it. I had a shop handle that portion. 

Did not consider running the center off the amp.


----------



## alachua

Ok, that is some good info. Find out if you are getting the high level signal before or after the factory amp. You should be able to run the signal from before the amp using just the L/R signal wires, without the need to hook up the sub signal.


----------



## nrubenstein

Has anyone had any issues with remote reception? I'm having real trouble with responsiveness to button presses. Changing the battery might have helped a little, but not much.


----------



## doitor

nrubenstein said:


> Has anyone had any issues with remote reception? I'm having real trouble with responsiveness to button presses. Changing the battery might have helped a little, but not much.


 Yes.
I've had two MS-8's in my hands.
The first ones remote came with a dead battery. No problems after changing it.
The second one had responsiveness problems until I changed the battery.

J.


----------



## nrubenstein

I guess I'll try swapping the battery again.


----------



## chefhow

Does anyone know if you can run the rear fill in mono? Meaning can I use channel 8 only from the MS8 into a Y adapter into the amp?


----------



## wiseman454

Has anyone run a three way front with center then added rear sides?
I am at crossroads with my setup.
Is the MS-8 at its best with rear side speakers AND a center or is a good three way front and center all that's needed to really let the MS-8 shine?


----------



## CraigE

I have. 3 way fronts and center sound great
The sides/rears are the icing on the MS-8 Cake.


----------



## BigRed

^^ yep. x2. works pretty darn good


----------



## chefhow

Can anyone answer the mono rears question?


----------



## thehatedguy

I doubt it.

Why do you only have one channel left over?


----------



## CraigE

I recall Andy addressing that 20 or so pages back, or maybe in another thread. 
And it was a no go.


----------



## chefhow

thehatedguy said:


> I doubt it.
> 
> Why do you only have one channel left over?


Long story, but I lost the RCA output on channel 1 and since they don't have any available for returns on repair and ESN is next weekend I just moved everything over 1
spot and am 1 ch short to do full Logic7. They will have them back in stock according to the tech I spoke with in 2 weeks.


----------



## CraigE

chefhow said:


> Can anyone answer the mono rears question?


Found it. 19 pages back.
Here ya go, post #3439.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...8257-jbls-ms-8-processor-138.html#post1064001


----------



## chefhow

Thanks Craig!!


----------



## hallsc

hallsc said:


> Andy, quick question about leaving the HU in full pass. For ridiculuous peaks or holes in a system (so extreme that the MS-8 might not be able to easily or fully correct them, say 10-12 dB one way or the other), would it HURT to use your HU's EQ to attempt to smooth things out prior to being sent to the MS-8? I understand that it's supposed to be unnecessary, but I was curious as to whether it would actually be doing anything negative assuming that the person using the HU's EQ wasn't exacerbating said peaks/holes?


Andy (or anyone else who would be able to give a good answerr to this question), any thoughts on this? Would I really be doing any harm by smoothing out the EQ using my HU prior to letting the MS-8 work its magic?


----------



## jrsmiles

Has the drifting center image been addressed? I've read all the pages in this thread up until about the mid 130's, but I've been out of the loop for a while. 

Acura TL-S
MS-8 running active to tweeters/mids/sub via JL 300/4 and 500/1.

A lot of music I listen to has a center shift to the far left of the dashboard. It's almost like the right side completely goes out. It will eventually drift back to center. I can rewind a cd and it won't happen again. I'm fairly certain it isn't my amp. I remember reading it's as easy is turning off the Logic7 feature, but doesn't that defeat the purpose of the MS-8? Time allignment, eq, etc...?




Also, I'm experiencing intermittent alternator whine through my system, not always, but sometimes. I'll check out my amp grounds, but it's weird that it isn't always there. Could it have something to do with the MS-8?


----------



## VP Electricity

hallsc said:


> Andy (or anyone else who would be able to give a good answerr to this question), any thoughts on this? Would I really be doing any harm by smoothing out the EQ using my HU prior to letting the MS-8 work its magic?


1) Some of us apparently aren't so good at the surrender thing

2) Why does your system suck *that* badly? Or is this just wanking? Have you tried it the intended way? 

3) You're not buying an EQ with an MS-8, you're buying an algorithm. Don't decide you can do things better than the algorithm until you have evidence it came up short. 

4) You're gonna try it anyway, aren't cha?


----------



## hallsc

I understand the MS-8 is not just en EQ, but I thought it uses the algorithm for the time alignment, imaging, L7 processing. It still EQ's each channel individually, right? I would definitely say that my system doesn't suck *that* bad; I am very happy with my system as is, and I am not trying to "do what the MS-8 does, better." I am simply wondering if putting a "smoother" input curve into the MS-8 would make it easier for it to do its job. Obviously the MS-8 would be able to tune things better/more easily if the input signal was perfectly flat/smooth; I don't see why making it closer to that would be a bad idea. I am going to try it with the HU EQ'd flat (MS-8 is not and will not be installed for some time while I collect everything to complete the system), but my question is not whether I am going to do better than the MS-8 (as I know damn well that I won't), but whether "pre-EQ'ing" would actually have a negative effect or not. If it won't, I definitely will try it anyway to compare results; I guess since the calibration set-up is so simple/fast it won't hurt to try it both ways and just see which one I prefer, or if I can even tell a difference. I don't know what wanking means.


----------



## rain27

jrsmiles said:


> Has the drifting center image been addressed? I've read all the pages in this thread up until about the mid 130's, but I've been out of the loop for a while.
> 
> Acura TL-S
> MS-8 running active to tweeters/mids/sub via JL 300/4 and 500/1.
> 
> A lot of music I listen to has a center shift to the far left of the dashboard. It's almost like the right side completely goes out. It will eventually drift back to center. I can rewind a cd and it won't happen again. I'm fairly certain it isn't my amp. I remember reading it's as easy is turning off the Logic7 feature, but doesn't that defeat the purpose of the MS-8? Time allignment, eq, etc...?
> 
> Also, I'm experiencing intermittent alternator whine through my system, not always, but sometimes. I'll check out my amp grounds, but it's weird that it isn't always there. Could it have something to do with the MS-8?


This solution has been covered pretty well, but when I had this issue come up I unplugged the mic and everything worked fine after that.


----------



## nrubenstein

hallsc said:


> I understand the MS-8 is not just en EQ, but I thought it uses the algorithm for the time alignment, imaging, L7 processing. It still EQ's each channel individually, right? I would definitely say that my system doesn't suck *that* bad; I am very happy with my system as is, and I am not trying to "do what the MS-8 does, better." I am simply wondering if putting a "smoother" input curve into the MS-8 would make it easier for it to do its job. Obviously the MS-8 would be able to tune things better/more easily if the input signal was perfectly flat/smooth; I don't see why making it closer to that would be a bad idea. I am going to try it with the HU EQ'd flat (MS-8 is not and will not be installed for some time while I collect everything to complete the system), but my question is not whether I am going to do better than the MS-8 (as I know damn well that I won't), but whether "pre-EQ'ing" would actually have a negative effect or not. If it won't, I definitely will try it anyway to compare results; I guess since the calibration set-up is so simple/fast it won't hurt to try it both ways and just see which one I prefer, or if I can even tell a difference. I don't know what wanking means.


The only time that the MS-8 would notice EQ in the head unit is when you run input setup. If you don't feed it a flat signal, it will EQ that signal to flat. After setup, you can use the head unit to change the sound all you want.

That said, what on earth are you talking about with a "smoother" input curve?


----------



## hallsc

Input curve was definitely the wrong way to say it, maybe I should have said pre-calibration FR of speakers. Andy has talked about level matching of speakers, saying, "MS-8 can autotune just about anything, but *it can't put back what isn't there*. There's a lot of boost and cut available, but if it runs out of boost, it runs out of bits and that will cause digital clipping...You can help MS-8 do its job if you hear ugly-sounding distortion by *making sure you don't have any huge holes in your response*." (Taken from "JBL MS8 and Horns" thread). This is referring to speaker level matching, however, let's say, for whatever reason (may be far-fetched), you have a good install, but the specific acoustics of your car, the speakers you are using, and location limitations (keeping factory/stealth look or room constraints) create too much of a gain or dip at from one frequency (maybe 10 dB) that is beyond correction for the MS-8. My question was would EQ'ing from your HU prior to running the calibration help get things closer (decrease a 10dB dip to 5dB) to where the MS-8 isn't trying to "put back what isn't there." I guess this is a moot point if the MS-8 EQ's the input signal to flat before running everything else, so I will LIG. Thanks for the clarification, nrubenstein.


----------



## 14642

jrsmiles said:


> Has the drifting center image been addressed? I've read all the pages in this thread up until about the mid 130's, but I've been out of the loop for a while.
> 
> Acura TL-S
> MS-8 running active to tweeters/mids/sub via JL 300/4 and 500/1.
> 
> A lot of music I listen to has a center shift to the far left of the dashboard. It's almost like the right side completely goes out. It will eventually drift back to center. I can rewind a cd and it won't happen again. I'm fairly certain it isn't my amp. I remember reading it's as easy is turning off the Logic7 feature, but doesn't that defeat the purpose of the MS-8? Time allignment, eq, etc...?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I'm experiencing intermittent alternator whine through my system, not always, but sometimes. I'll check out my amp grounds, but it's weird that it isn't always there. Could it have something to do with the MS-8?


Sounds like an intermittent RCA connection to the right front mid or tweeter, to me.Could cause both problems.


----------



## 14642

hallsc said:


> Input curve was definitely the wrong way to say it, maybe I should have said pre-calibration FR of speakers. Andy has talked about level matching of speakers, saying, "MS-8 can autotune just about anything, but *it can't put back what isn't there*. There's a lot of boost and cut available, but if it runs out of boost, it runs out of bits and that will cause digital clipping...You can help MS-8 do its job if you hear ugly-sounding distortion by *making sure you don't have any huge holes in your response*." (Taken from "JBL MS8 and Horns" thread). This is referring to speaker level matching, however, let's say, for whatever reason (may be far-fetched), you have a good install, but the specific acoustics of your car, the speakers you are using, and location limitations (keeping factory/stealth look or room constraints) create too much of a gain or dip at from one frequency (maybe 10 dB) that is beyond correction for the MS-8. My question was would EQ'ing from your HU prior to running the calibration help get things closer (decrease a 10dB dip to 5dB) to where the MS-8 isn't trying to "put back what isn't there." I guess this is a moot point if the MS-8 EQ's the input signal to flat before running everything else, so I will LIG. Thanks for the clarification, nrubenstein.


There's nothing wrong with using both EQs, but if MS-8 doesn't have enough boost to fill in what isn't there, adding another 12dB of boost with another EQ probably won't do it either. If this is the case, you ought to improve whatever condition is casusing the problem to bring it within the range that MS-8 can fix.


----------



## VP Electricity

hallsc said:


> ...You can help MS-8 do its job if you hear ugly-sounding distortion by *making sure you don't have any huge holes in your response*."
> 
> ... however, let's say, for whatever reason (may be far-fetched), you have a good install, but the specific acoustics of your car, the speakers you are using, and location limitations (keeping factory/stealth look or room constraints) create too much of a gain or dip at from one frequency (maybe 10 dB) that is beyond correction for the MS-8.


If you have such a terrible system design that 10dB of EQ isn't gonna fix the problem, stacking another EQ on top if it is the fix? 

If you have a null with give speaker locations, and one EQ won't address it, more boost isn't the answer. 

It's not just a corner condition, it's paradoxical. If you have a 10dB hole that can't EQ out, IS your install good?


----------



## Swagger

*Alpine Amp Gain settings*

Just received my replacement MS-8. I have some time today so I’m going to hook it up. I’ve never been much of an expert with amp gains and voltage so I have a question. 
I have three Alpine PDX amps driving the 8 channels from the MS-8. I’ve heard Andy say to set the gain at 2V. I assume this is to match the output of the MS-8. 
My question is about the Alpine gain labels on the amp. On my PDX 4.100 and 4.150, there are seven notches on the gain knob with 1 being labeled MIN and 7 MAX. At notch 4 it’s labeled NOM and at 5 it’s 0.5V. The manual lists the input sensitivity (V / at 10k ohms) as .2V – 4.0V. Where on the knob is closest to 2V? 
Other question, my PDX 1.600 (sub) has two settings, 0.1V-1.0V and 1.0V-8.0V. The gain is labeled only with min and max and the same seven notches but no NOM or .5V like the 100 and 150. I’m assuming I should have it set on the 1.0V-8.0V setting. Does the gain control where the input voltage is between 1.0V and 8.0V or is it used more in a volume capacity for this application. 
Thanks!


----------



## wyldelee

Hi,
There is so much information, thank you all. I have read about 100 pages of this thread so far and placed an order for an MS-8 to use as the heart of the system. I have a couple of quick questions about my still needed equipment purchases.
background info:
07 Mazdaspeed3 with factory Bose system 
replace fronts with Hertz HSK165cs and subs (2) SI BM MKIII subs dvc4 subs (they like 200-450rms)

Which speakers would you recommend for center and rears that would match up nicely to the Hertz HSK165cs and BM MKIII ? Or should I keep factory for that?
What amps would you suggest for a clean, simple, and power efficient (small alternator) install of all the above?

I own a JL300/2 and JL300/4 and Crescendo 1000c4 that could be used for this build but they didn't really meet the small footprint or efficient requirement.


----------



## airjacobs

Well whatever, sounds like a fancy way of not calling it Room Correction. I personally have not used room correction yet, but there are pay versions like Audiolense or you can use DRC/bruteFIR for free. Again, both those should be in the mp3car link and if you dig aroudn there are guides on how to use it.


----------



## 14642

All room correction is not created equal, just like amps and speakers aren't created equal.


----------



## kapone

Andy, got a question for you about "rear speakers".

The manual suggests using "coaxials", even for rear speakers. Would it "work" if used just mids (no tweeters) for the rear speakers? The reason I ask is because I "assume" that there will be very little sound in the tweeter range for rear fill?


----------



## AdamS

jrsmiles said:


> Has the drifting center image been addressed? I've read all the pages in this thread up until about the mid 130's, but I've been out of the loop for a while.
> 
> Acura TL-S
> MS-8 running active to tweeters/mids/sub via JL 300/4 and 500/1.
> 
> A lot of music I listen to has a center shift to the far left of the dashboard. It's almost like the right side completely goes out. It will eventually drift back to center. I can rewind a cd and it won't happen again. I'm fairly certain it isn't my amp. I remember reading it's as easy is turning off the Logic7 feature, but doesn't that defeat the purpose of the MS-8? Time allignment, eq, etc...?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I'm experiencing intermittent alternator whine through my system, not always, but sometimes. I'll check out my amp grounds, but it's weird that it isn't always there. Could it have something to do with the MS-8?



Plug an Ipod into MS-8's Aux-In and see if you get the same imaging issue. This bypasses the signal summing/UnEQ.

But it sounds like you may have a grounding issue of sorts anyways.


----------



## DS-21

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> All room correction is not created equal, just like amps and speakers aren't created equal.


Room correction algorithms are created a whole lot more unequal than commodity parts like amplifiers are, though.


----------



## 14642

DS-21 said:


> Room correction algorithms are created a whole lot more unequal than commodity parts like amplifiers are, though.


Right. And that's why when I read things like, "It's a fancy name for room correction", I think "Yeah, and it's a fancy room correction designed specifically for the interior of a car and based on years of experience and sound audio principles. It SHOULD have a fancy name." 

Lining up the dots on an Audio Control 3055 with a simple 31-band EQ could also be called room correction, albiet manual room correction. I don't find that methoud to be a very good one and hear that sentiment echoed all over the place: "Flat response sucks. I don't use an analyzer" etc. I don't think anyone would argue that these two methods are dramatically different and yeild dramatically different results.


----------



## AAAAAAA

Here is another thanks Andy for all your dedication and help.


----------



## DS-21

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Right. And that's why when I read things like, "It's a fancy name for room correction", I think "Yeah, and it's a fancy room correction designed specifically for the interior of a car and based on years of experience and sound audio principles. It SHOULD have a fancy name."


"Cabin correction?" 



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Lining up the dots on an Audio Control 3055 with a simple 31-band EQ could also be called room correction, albiet manual room correction. I don't find that methoud to be a very good one and hear that sentiment echoed all over the place: "Flat response sucks. I don't use an analyzer" etc. I don't think anyone would argue that these two methods are dramatically different and yeild dramatically different results.


I dunno. There are certainly plenty of functionally deaf people. And others whose egos won't allow them to accept what machines can do either as well as people can more quickly, or sometimes better than what people can do. I'm sure there were people back in the day who bitched that electronic ignitions were a sign of the apocalypse because they couldn't advance the timing any more...

Objectively, they're certainly not the same thing, though!


----------



## kapone

kapone said:


> Andy, got a question for you about "rear speakers".
> 
> The manual suggests using "coaxials", even for rear speakers. Would it "work" if used just mids (no tweeters) for the rear speakers? The reason I ask is because I "assume" that there will be very little sound in the tweeter range for rear fill?


Andy?? Please?


----------



## 14642

Rear speakers don't need to make any bass, but they should include a tweeter. Coaxials are great for rears.


----------



## Hernan

I have the unit installed and running

Some questions,

Sweeps during calibration are at a low level. I'm used to the holmImpulse sweeps that are much louder.
OK?

I'm still using the 701. Front 2 full range to the inputs 1&2 at the MS8.

Inputs are clipped at volume 22/35. The output of the 701 is 4V so this seems ok.

The final result is nice but overall volume is low. I have to adjust the gain on the amps. It seems that the EQ on the MS8 does a lots of cuts.

Last, I have very sensitive tweeters, the TB ceramics long chamber. Could I use the intenal amp for them. (this will free up some channels for the rear fill

Thanks!


----------



## 14642

Hernan said:


> I have the unit installed and running
> 
> Some questions,
> 
> Sweeps during calibration are at a low level. I'm used to the holmImpulse sweeps that are much louder.
> OK?
> 
> I'm still using the 701. Front 2 full range to the inputs 1&2 at the MS8.
> 
> Inputs are clipped at volume 22/35. The output of the 701 is 4V so this seems ok.
> 
> The final result is nice but overall volume is low. I have to adjust the gain on the amps. It seems that the EQ on the MS8 does a lots of cuts.
> 
> Last, I have very sensitive tweeters, the TB ceramics long chamber. Could I use the intenal amp for them. (this will free up some channels for the rear fill
> 
> Thanks!


Sweeps should be at a low level. Like someone talking in the passenger's seat. Yes, the EQ will cut more that it boosts. How does using the internal amps free up channels?


----------



## raadkins16

Would free up 2 outboard amp channels for the tweets if he used the JBL's internal amp... I assume that is what he is referring to.


----------



## Hernan

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sweeps should be at a low level. Like someone talking in the passenger's seat. Yes, the EQ will cut more that it boosts. How does using the internal amps free up channels?


I have 15 minutes today to play a little more with the unit.
Sweep volume could be set louder increasing the gain with the remote. I tried both ways, low and moderate with the same result.

Sorry, I don't explain me well. Using one pair of the internal amps output fot the tws will free up a pair of amp channels, of course the unit has 8 outputs but i don't have more amp channels to use the rear speakers.

I have a minor problem with one midrange so I set up a two way front.
I have to say that sounds better than what I could tune with the 701


----------



## 106diablogti

Finally I have an MS-8 

Everything is installed and calibrated but when the volume is at a modest level I get breakup distortion. 

My set-up:-

2 way set-up Rainbow SAC kick bass
Headunit (Stock VW RCD200 speaker level out) all eq settings set to zero
JL HD 900/5 tweeters off a couple channels 
JL HD 600/4 mids off a couple channels

What output will the MS-8 give if outputting via RCA with high level input? The reason I ask is because the gains are set to the lowest level level on the amps and don't understand why there is distortion?

The JL amps have a hi / low input setting but this is depending on the input voltage.


----------



## t3sn4f2

106diablogti said:


> Finally I have an MS-8
> 
> Everything is installed and calibrated but when the volume is at a modest level I get breakup distortion.
> 
> My set-up:-
> 
> 2 way set-up Rainbow SAC kick bass
> Headunit (Stock VW RCD200 speaker level out) all eq settings set to zero
> JL HD 900/5 tweeters off a couple channels
> JL HD 600/4 mids off a couple channels
> 
> What output will the MS-8 give if outputting via RCA with high level input? The reason I ask is because the gains are set to the lowest level level on the amps and don't understand why there is distortion?
> 
> The JL amps have a hi / low input setting but this is depending on the input voltage.


Try lowering the master volume on the MS-8 and see if the distortion goes away.


----------



## 106diablogti

I've lowered the master volume and it goes away but there is hardly any volume.


----------



## ErinH

This may have been covered already, so forgive me if it has...

If one was to use rear fill in a setup that consisted of no center channel, would logic 7 need to be turned on?
I ask because with L7 on, and no center channel, things are funky. I think we've discussed this before.

Also, just to make sure, the rear fill should cover what bandwidth? As much as possible, I assume, but is (for example) 100-3000hz primary? This determines if one needs coax/components or standard drivers in the rear.


----------



## rain27

bikinpunk said:


> This may have been covered already, so forgive me if it has...
> 
> If one was to use rear fill in a setup that consisted of no center channel, would logic 7 need to be turned on?
> I ask because with L7 on, and no center channel, things are funky. I think we've discussed this before.
> 
> Also, just to make sure, the rear fill should cover what bandwidth? As much as possible, I assume, but is (for example) 100-3000hz primary? This determines if one needs coax/components or standard drivers in the rear.


I'm pretty darn sure Andy said the rears should go from 100 up and include some tweeters.


----------



## t3sn4f2

"1. Logic7 steers the full range signal, but the subwoofer output is unprocessed. Does that make sense? If your front left, right and center don't use a high pass filter, the full signal will be steered to the left right and center by the algorithm. The algorithm steers the full signal to the sides and rears, but 150Hz-15kHz is the bandwidth necessary for your speakers to reproduce for the effect to work well. In fact, I recommend a steep high pass filter on the sides and rears at 150Hz. "

I think that was changed to 100Hz-10Khz, but I can't say for sure.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/997147-post1967.html

I think hs changed that req also to if no center, leave Logic 7 off.


----------



## VP Electricity

t3sn4f2 said:


> I think hs changed that req also to if no center, leave Logic 7 off.


Yep yep.


----------



## rockondon

bikinpunk said:


> This may have been covered already, so forgive me if it has...
> 
> If one was to use rear fill in a setup that consisted of no center channel, would logic 7 need to be turned on?
> I ask because with L7 on, and no center channel, things are funky. I think we've discussed this before.
> 
> Also, just to make sure, the rear fill should cover what bandwidth? As much as possible, I assume, but is (for example) 100-3000hz primary? This determines if one needs coax/components or standard drivers in the rear.



Not sure about the L7 on ,or off without a center.
However IIRC without side and rear the L7 processes the rear only as sides.
[Possibly why it sounds funky.]

Bandwidth for side n rears is recommended as 150-200 up to a minimum of 10,000.


----------



## 14642

If you use L7, it's important to have at least one set of speakers in the back. Without them, the sounds that steer rear will simply disappear.


----------



## A-Ron

*Re: Alpine Amp Gain settings*



Swagger said:


> Just received my replacement MS-8. I have some time today so I’m going to hook it up. I’ve never been much of an expert with amp gains and voltage so I have a question.
> I have three Alpine PDX amps driving the 8 channels from the MS-8. I’ve heard Andy say to set the gain at 2V. I assume this is to match the output of the MS-8.
> My question is about the Alpine gain labels on the amp. On my PDX 4.100 and 4.150, there are seven notches on the gain knob with 1 being labeled MIN and 7 MAX. At notch 4 it’s labeled NOM and at 5 it’s 0.5V. The manual lists the input sensitivity (V / at 10k ohms) as .2V – 4.0V. Where on the knob is closest to 2V?
> Other question, my PDX 1.600 (sub) has two settings, 0.1V-1.0V and 1.0V-8.0V. The gain is labeled only with min and max and the same seven notches but no NOM or .5V like the 100 and 150. I’m assuming I should have it set on the 1.0V-8.0V setting. Does the gain control where the input voltage is between 1.0V and 8.0V or is it used more in a volume capacity for this application.
> Thanks!


I too would like to know the answer to this...


----------



## mitchyz250f

Andy, How much power do you need for the rears compared to the front. I think you have said the center should be equal or greater than the front side speakers.


----------



## Technic

*Re: Alpine Amp Gain settings*



Swagger said:


> Just received my replacement MS-8. I have some time today so I’m going to hook it up. I’ve never been much of an expert with amp gains and voltage so I have a question.
> I have three Alpine PDX amps driving the 8 channels from the MS-8. I’ve heard Andy say to set the gain at 2V. I assume this is to match the output of the MS-8.
> My question is about the Alpine gain labels on the amp. On my PDX 4.100 and 4.150, there are seven notches on the gain knob with 1 being labeled MIN and 7 MAX. At notch 4 it’s labeled NOM and at 5 it’s 0.5V. The manual lists the input sensitivity (V / at 10k ohms) as .2V – 4.0V. Where on the knob is closest to 2V?
> Other question, my PDX 1.600 (sub) has two settings, 0.1V-1.0V and 1.0V-8.0V. The gain is labeled only with min and max and the same seven notches but no NOM or .5V like the 100 and 150. I’m assuming I should have it set on the 1.0V-8.0V setting. Does the gain control where the input voltage is between 1.0V and 8.0V or is it used more in a volume capacity for this application.
> Thanks!


I have a PDX 4.150 and a PDX-5 in a 2008 BMW M3 with the MS-8... for calibration I set the MS-8 to -35dB and set the gains of both PDXs to NOM. No input setup used as my OEM Nav outputs low level balanced.

After calibration I set all the PDX gain to min except the front woofers channels (one click past NOM) and the MS-8 volume to -4dB. For some reason my MS-8 cannot get the front woofers (Front Lo in a 2-way front configuration) to sound as loud as the front mids/tweeters (Front Hi), thus the difference in gain compared to the other 6-channels. 

The point is, try to set your PDX gains relatively the same before calibration and then adjust them to taste as close as possible to each other afterwards. The NOM setting worked great in my setup, you could try that as well. 

For your PDX 1.600 settings, one is for a *low level input *(.1V-1V) and the other is for a *high level input *(1V-8V); depending of what level input are you using is the switch set to.


----------



## fuji6

Question for the guys going 3-way front + center + rears/sides. I know this requires you add your own xover to the chain after the ms-8 ( for the most part I have heard passives being used for mid to tweet). 
The question I have is:
What resource are you using to create/design/source your passive xover?


----------



## t3sn4f2

fuji6 said:


> Question for the guys going 3-way front + center + rears/sides. I know this requires you add your own xover to the chain after the ms-8 ( for the most part I have heard passives being used for mid to tweet).
> The question I have is:
> What resource are you using to create/design/source your passive xover?


People are either using the passive crossover that came with the component set (if it came with one) or they are adding another channel pair and actively crossing the components over on the amp's crossover.


----------



## T3mpest

Long time thread reader first time question asker lol. I have a MS-8 on the way and am curious about the center channel. My setup is high effeciency, BMS midbasses combined with B&C compression drivers. I want to add a center channel I'm thinking the BMS5cn140
http://bmsspeakers.com/fileadmin/bm...vers/neodymium/bms_5cn140_t_data_09-02-13.pdf

Anyway it has a tweet and mid integrated so it will play full range, but will the MS-8 be able to cross it over or would I have to get a passive crossover? The HF unit is 113db/1w/1m so I'd like to use the little amp built into the MS-8 for it if possible.


----------



## t3sn4f2

T3mpest said:


> Long time thread reader first time question asker lol. I have a MS-8 on the way and am curious about the center channel. My setup is high effeciency, BMS midbasses combined with B&C compression drivers. I want to add a center channel I'm thinking the BMS5cn140
> http://bmsspeakers.com/fileadmin/bm...vers/neodymium/bms_5cn140_t_data_09-02-13.pdf
> 
> Anyway it has a tweet and mid integrated so it will play full range, but will the MS-8 be able to cross it over or would I have to get a passive crossover? The HF unit is 113db/1w/1m so I'd like to use the little amp built into the MS-8 for it if possible.


Yes, if you have 2 channels available out of the 8.


----------



## T3mpest

t3sn4f2 said:


> Yes, if you have 2 channels available out of the 8.


No issues then. I'll be processing just the 2 horns and 2 mids so that's only 4 channels. The center would take up 2 more so five and six respectively. That even leaves me with enough to add rears in my pillars if I choose to down the line.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy, would a frequency sweep after calibration, EQ, and tone setting reveal digital clipping at frequency for a given master volume setting?


----------



## VP Electricity

I'm using one of these in a center/F/R/sub system where I'm low on channels. 

- Are the "rear" speakers same as the fronts when L7 is off?

- When L7 is on?

- Are the "side" speakers getting different signals from each other? Can I run both side speakers on a single channel? (I doubt it, but figured I'd ask). 

- With F and R full-range outputs, can I run both F and R into the MS-8 and retain fader, even if there are no "rear" speakers, just "side" speakers?


----------



## t3sn4f2

VP Electricity said:


> I'm using one of these in a center/F/R/sub system where I'm low on channels.
> 
> - Are the "rear" speakers same as the fronts when L7 is off?
> 
> - When L7 is on?
> 
> - Are the "side" speakers getting different signals from each other? Can I run both side speakers on a single channel? (I doubt it, but figured I'd ask).
> 
> - *With F and R full-range outputs, can I run both F and R into the MS-8 and retain fader, even if there are no "rear" speakers, just "side" speakers?*


Seems like everything would get summed and all that would happen when you fade is you would loose some output.


----------



## VP Electricity

t3sn4f2 said:


> Seems like everything would get summed and all that would happen when you fade is you would loose some output.


I don't remember if you can define input channels as rears?


----------



## t3sn4f2

VP Electricity said:


> I don't remember if you can define input channels as rears?


I don't think you can define input channels period. The only thing that comes close to that is that the sub needs to go on inputs 7 and 8.


----------



## jimbno1

T3mpest said:


> No issues then. I'll be processing just the 2 horns and 2 mids so that's only 4 channels. The center would take up 2 more so five and six respectively. That even leaves me with enough to add rears in my pillars if I choose to down the line.


You don't plan on a sub? If so you are a channel short. Same kind of boat I am in.


----------



## 14642

jimbno1 said:


> You don't plan on a sub? If so you are a channel short. Same kind of boat I am in.


 
Use a passive crossover on the center channel. 

All 8 input chanels are summed, so no retaining of the factory fader control.

With L7 off, front and rear are the same. With L7 on, the rears and sides play ambient sounds contained in the recording (defined by the phase relationship between right and left channels) only. 

Sides and rears are assigned in pairs. There's no mono rear supported as one of L7's benefits over other matrices is that it can resolve left and right in the back. 

You can only define rear channels after you've defined sides. If you have 2 speakers in the back, they are sides. If you have four, you can enter the ones in the rear doors as sides and the ones in the rear deck as rear. Don't sweat the difference. There's very little performance advantage of 7.1 over 5.1.


----------



## VP Electricity

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> All 8 input chanels are summed, so no retaining of the factory fader control.
> 
> With L7 off, front and rear are the same. With L7 on, the rears and sides play ambient sounds contained in the recording (defined by the phase relationship between right and left channels) only.
> 
> Sides and rears are assigned in pairs. There's no mono rear supported as one of L7's benefits over other matrices is that it can resolve left and right in the back.
> 
> You can only define rear channels after you've defined sides. If you have 2 speakers in the back, they are sides. If you have four, you can enter the ones in the rear doors as sides and the ones in the rear deck as rear. Don't sweat the difference. There's very little performance advantage of 7.1 over 5.1.


Thanks. 

I will need to use the amp xovers for the mid/tweeter handoff. Since they are 12dB, I will add a series cap on the tweeter for 18, and adjust the xover settings and gains with pink noise and an RTA prior to calibration. 

There are no PLDs from the tweeter to the mid on either side - if there were, I assume the MS-8 can't do anything about it if they are on a single pair of channels... since at one point you said that the MS-8 "doesn't EQ phase". 

I have assumed that if you run OE signals in, and there is any time delay in the OE system, that the MS-8 addresses that?


----------



## 14642

Yes, MS-8 fixes the relative delay between channels on the input. It can't fix PLDs through passive crossovers, but PLD's for high frequencies can be adequately compensated using level (EQ and gain). Covering the tweeter during the first set of sweeps will cause MS-8 to locate and align for the mid and the tweeter can be fixed with the Auto EQ.


----------



## Ovalevader

What is the proper way to run a 3 wire balanced differential into the ms8? Another member and I talked about just using the positive and the GND (not using the signal -) into the rca, but now I read the line level will accept balanced, how do I go about this with a 3 wire setup?


----------



## VP Electricity

Don't use the Ground. Use the + and -.


----------



## Ovalevader

So right now I have the + and the - going into the rca's, and I'm getting a ton of noise, are you saying to just wire it the same way, but into the line level inputs?


----------



## VP Electricity

Don't use the word line-level, it is used to mean several things. 

If you have the + and - balanced lines going into the RCA jacks, I'm not convinced that that's the cause of your noise. Have you tried an iPod into the AUX RCA jacks to see what noise you have then? 

But if we assume it is the issue, the difference when you use the speaker-level input harness should be some signal attenuation. Other than that the speaker level input will work fine for balanced signals. 

Have you measured the voltage of the Honda HU? The Si had an amp? I thought it was deck power...


----------



## t3sn4f2

Ovalevader said:


> So right now I have the + and the - going into the rca's, and I'm getting a ton of noise, are you saying to just wire it the same way, but into the line level inputs?


Line level is RCA, among others type of connections and line type. Speaker or high level is speaker wire inputs. Oem is speaker wire but not eclusively a type out output, it's what ever they want to make it.


----------



## VP Electricity

t3sn4f2 said:


> Line level is RCA,


Some people use it for speaker level. Some people use it for preamp level. Some people use it for pro balanced signal levels. I quit arguing with them long ago (about that anyway) and avoid the term entirely. Huge time saver.


----------



## Ovalevader

Sorry for the confusion, i meant "speaker level" inputs. 

The 8th gen Si's all have the premium audio with an amp. 

So heres the full story. I originally had the MS8 replacing the factory amp basically, with the + and - signal soldered into a short rca cable not using the sheild ground. Recently I moved everything into the trunk when I installed my amps and everything, so i soldered in female rca jacks at the factory amp location (still using the + and - signal, no ground) and used 15ft rca's to reach the ms8 in the trunk. Everything was working fine before, it was just noisy. Before the ms8 accepted the input level and input setup went fine. Now I get "input none" at all volumes, and if I skip input setup, its twice as noisy as it was before. So I was wondering if using the speaker level inputs would kill my noise some, as I wasn't aware that my setup was balanced until it was pointed out to me.

I do get noise using the ipod. So if I'm convinced my ground is good, and the inputs aren't the problem, what else could it be?


----------



## VP Electricity

Ovalevader said:


> S
> 
> I originally had the MS8 replacing the factory amp basically, with the + and - signal soldered into a short rca cable not using the sheild ground.
> 
> Everything was working fine before, it was just noisy.
> 
> Now I get "input none" at all volumes, and if I skip input setup, its twice as noisy as it was before.
> 
> So I was wondering if using the speaker level inputs would kill my noise some, as I wasn't aware that my setup was balanced until it was pointed out to me.


The fact that you get "input none" when you didn't before means that SOMETHING CHANGED ABOUT YOUR INSTALL. 

I suspect the soldering, the RCA used, and also:

Is there any place where metal RCA barrels can touch metal or each other? This is a common problem that causes noise in OEM integration to balanced preamp signals. The (-) balanced signal can't short to ground, nor to another (-) signal. 

Did you use coaxial RCAs? Balanced in this case should be on twisted pair so that they get the same conductors. Twisted pair with a coax shield is fine (IMO shield is unneeded) but the + and - should be the same wire inside. 





Ovalevader said:


> Recently I moved everything into the trunk when I installed my amps and everything, so i soldered in female rca jacks at the factory amp location (still using the + and - signal, no ground) and used 15ft rca's to reach the ms8 in the trunk.
> 
> Now I get "input none" at all volumes, and if I skip input setup, its twice as noisy as it was before.


Did you try grounding the HU with the MS-8? I know all the theoretical reasons that it might not be needed, but I always run a ground wire in case it's needed, anyway. 

You describe the same setup in my wife's Acura TSX, and there's no noise at all.


----------



## Ari

Quick questions:


Is the MS-8's memory banks non-volatile? If I need to disconnect my car's battery for service will Iose all the Favorites settings? If not, will the MS-8 revert back the current settings I was on when I plug my battery back on? 

I have five Favorites saved. However, I don't see the word "Active" to show which of them I'm currently in?


----------



## Ovalevader

VP Electricity said:


> The fact that you get "input none" when you didn't before means that SOMETHING CHANGED ABOUT YOUR INSTALL.
> 
> I suspect the soldering, the RCA used, and also:
> 
> Is there any place where metal RCA barrels can touch metal or each other? This is a common problem that causes noise in OEM integration to balanced preamp signals. The (-) balanced signal can't short to ground, nor to another (-) signal.
> 
> Did you use coaxial RCAs? Balanced in this case should be on twisted pair so that they get the same conductors. Twisted pair with a coax shield is fine (IMO shield is unneeded) but the + and - should be the same wire inside.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you try grounding the HU with the MS-8? I know all the theoretical reasons that it might not be needed, but I always run a ground wire in case it's needed, anyway.
> 
> You describe the same setup in my wife's Acura TSX, and there's no noise at all.


 The barrells are well insulated, but the rca's are coax. I think I have some STP phone cable lying around, maybe I'll try ditching the Female RCA jacks and just soldering the twisted pair straight into the wires, and straight into the speaker level. If that doesn't work, I guess I'll try grounding the head unit to the chassis, cause the noise is ridiculous, it overpowers the music at anything below 7 or 8 out of 40 on the headunit.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Ovalevader said:


> The barrells are well insulated, but the rca's are coax. I think I have some STP phone cable lying around, maybe I'll try ditching the Female RCA jacks and just soldering the twisted pair straight into the wires, and straight into the speaker level. If that doesn't work, I guess I'll try grounding the head unit to the chassis, cause the noise is ridiculous, it overpowers the music at anything below 7 or 8 out of 40 on the headunit.


I would not use the speaker level inputs of the MS-8 in this case, I think they are attenuated and need a stronger signal then the RCA inputs need. Beside why change it when it worked perfectly before. Look elsewhere.

Like VP said, ground the head unit to the MS-8. Not to the chassis in the front though, to the MS-8 in the back with a thick 8 gauge cable. IIRC the thick cable is better because it keeps the voltage drop as low as possible and a voltage difference is what can cause noise. I could totally be off the mark on the reason why it's better though.

Also make sure you aren't running cables over something that can induce noise like a fuel pump or something.


----------



## Ovalevader

Oh, I was under the assumption the speaker level inputs were made for balanced... anyway, like I said before, the only thing that was working fine before was the input calibration. It was still *almost* as noisy as it is now, but now its just plain ridiculous, AND the input calibration is stuck on "signal none" where as before I got a good level etc.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Ovalevader said:


> Oh, I was under the assumption the speaker level inputs were made for balanced... anyway, like I said before, the only thing that was working fine before was the input calibration. It was still *almost* as noisy as it is now, but now its just plain ridiculous, AND the input calibration is stuck on "signal none" where as before I got a good level etc.


Ah, nevermind. I totally misread :blush:


----------



## t3sn4f2

Nevermind.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Ovalevader said:


> Oh, I was under the assumption the speaker level inputs were made for balanced... anyway, like I said before, the only thing that was working fine before was the input calibration. It was still *almost* as noisy as it is now, but now its just plain ridiculous, AND the input calibration is stuck on "signal none" where as before I got a good level etc.


When you where not getting signal none, was it the head unit volume full tilt. I'm thinking the longer cable run might have lowered the output voltage of the head unit at the ms-8 to the point where it was under the limit. Not the case if you had some head unit volume gain left over initially.


----------



## Ovalevader

Before, the sensitivity was pretty high as far as headunit volume went. The signal would be none at 20-25 (out of 40), low from 25-34, just right at 35, and then high and noisy at 36. Now it reads signal none all the way through, and occasionally i'll get a "signal noisy" at 36-37. But still, I can live with the input being low, I have tons of headroom on my amps, and the acoustic calibration seemed to work fine, and it sounds fantastic (other than the noise).


----------



## Ovalevader

So for anyone interested, I figured out half of my issue. I ended up replacing my RCA's with a new and slightly shorter set of twisted pair rca's, that helped with my input problems, now I get a nice clean level going into the MS8, and the RCA's helped with my noise a little bit. 

After going to town on my grounds, and pretty much making sure there was absolutely nothing else that could cause noise, I deduced that the rest of the noise was coming from inside, or after the MS8 signal path. After playing with tweeter gains, I think I'm getting some exaggerated gain hiss from the tweeter channel. If the signal was maybe 5v+ instead of 2, I might be able to use the gains at 0. Anyone have any luck running a line driver post ms8?


----------



## Ari

Hi Andy, Adam, or any expert MS-8 users here. Can anyone help me with my questions below? Thanks for any help you guys can provide.



Ari said:


> Quick questions:
> 
> *1.* Is the MS-8's memory banks non-volatile? If I need to disconnect my car's battery for service will Iose all the Favorites settings? If not, will the MS-8 revert back the current settings I was on when I plug my battery back on?
> 
> *2.* I have five Favorites saved. However, I don't see the word "Active" to show which of them I'm currently in?


----------



## 14642

Yes, MS-8 will remember all the settings that are stored. If there's no "active" next to any of the favorites, you've made some adjustment to something in the audio controls menu since selecting a favorite.


----------



## 14642

Ovalevader said:


> So for anyone interested, I figured out half of my issue. I ended up replacing my RCA's with a new and slightly shorter set of twisted pair rca's, that helped with my input problems, now I get a nice clean level going into the MS8, and the RCA's helped with my noise a little bit.
> 
> After going to town on my grounds, and pretty much making sure there was absolutely nothing else that could cause noise, I deduced that the rest of the noise was coming from inside, or after the MS8 signal path. After playing with tweeter gains, I think I'm getting some exaggerated gain hiss from the tweeter channel. If the signal was maybe 5v+ instead of 2, I might be able to use the gains at 0. Anyone have any luck running a line driver post ms8?


Unplug your amps' RCAs one by one from MS-8. Sounds to me like some difference in potential between the audio ground of the amps is causing a ground loop (so long as it's engine noise that you're hearing). If it's just a bunch of hiss, then it isn't a ground problem and may simply be too much gain. There should be no need for a line driver. In fact, there's rarely a need for a line driver in any modern system.


----------



## Ari

Thank you Andy!


----------



## oca123

As suggested by VP Electricity on another forum (e90post) I got my hands on the MS8 less than a month ago.
It was installed in a BMW 320d coupe (E92) with the following setup:
- Front mids/tweeters: BSW passive crossover -> RCA1, RCA2 to Alpine PMX amp
- Rears: BSW -> output3,output4 to speakers
- Woofers: stock -> RCA5, RCA6 to Alpine PMX amp
- Sub: BSW uf110 in the trunk -> RCA7, RCA8 to Rockford amp
No center channel (have the trim, not installed yet because MS8 is dead right now)

Fronts and Woofers were powered by an Alpine PMX-640 while rears were driven directly by the MS8. Sub was powered by a Rockford P200-2 (bridged)

Crossovers: sub/front highpass 50hz, woofers band passed at 50hz-150hz 12db/oct, front mids/tweets 150 and up. Rears are highpassed at 100hz.

Matching the gains (I used some iPhone RTA app to do that) roughly and running the calibration with low volume did it for me.

However, the MS8 died yesterday. I plugged in the mic and was about to run a new acoustic measurement test (I was in a parking lot and it was very quiet) when the MS8 just turned off. The power LED indicator turns on, however the screen stays blank. Additionally, no sound comes out, and the MS8 seems to be stuck in a constant reboot loop. I hooked it up to a test 12V DC power supply and took a look at the remote out lead, and this is what it does:
- 5 seconds +12v
- 1 second 0V
- 5 seconds +12v
- 1 second 0V
etc.

I plugged a laptop in via the USB port and it definitely looks like the MS8 keeps restarting. I'm not sure if that is relevant but last week, I got a "No response from DSP" error and the MS8 rebooted. That's about the only error I had with it until it died yesterday.

I'm not sure what to do at this point, there is no more sound in my car and on top of that I went through hell to get ahold of one of these babies as the MS8 has not been released here in France yet. I bought mine from Crutchfield in the US and shipped it to myself here in Europe.
Is there a way to "hard reset" the device? What's going on...??? i literally LOVE the MS8 and I feel like I have a sick child!


----------



## oca123

PS I briefly went through the attached MS8 service manual to look for anything that may explain the issue but I gave up as it is way over my head. thought i'd share it though. see attached PDF.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Unplug your amps' RCAs one by one from MS-8. Sounds to me like some difference in potential between the audio ground of the amps is causing a ground loop (so long as it's engine noise that you're hearing). *If it's just a bunch of hiss, then it isn't a ground problem *and may simply be too much gain. There should be no need for a line driver. In fact, there's rarely a need for a line driver in any modern system.


Good to know, thanks!


----------



## 14642

Disconnect all the speaker leads from MS-8 and try again.


----------



## oca123

Andy, if your post was in response to mine:
As soon as the problem occured, I took the MS-8 out of the car. I put it on a table and ran 12V and GND into it. The unit "reboots" every 5s. There are no other connections going in or out of the unit. I have also tried with rem in, no dice. USB yields some kind of JBL API device but it seems to reset as well, I have not experimented much in that direction.


----------



## t3sn4f2

oca123 said:


> Andy, if your post was in response to mine:
> As soon as the problem occured, I took the MS-8 out of the car. I put it on a table and ran 12V and GND into it. The unit "reboots" every 5s. There are no other connections going in or out of the unit. I have also tried with rem in, no dice. USB yields some kind of JBL API device but it seems to reset as well, I have not experimented much in that direction.


Isn't there a big "Warrenty Void" label over the USB port?


----------



## oca123

No, mine just says "Remove for software update" - i dont see anything related to warranty. I dont even have stickers on the screws for warranty.


----------



## oca123

oca123 said:


> Andy, if your post was in response to mine:
> As soon as the problem occured, I took the MS-8 out of the car. I put it on a table and ran 12V and GND into it. The unit "reboots" every 5s. There are no other connections going in or out of the unit. I have also tried with rem in, no dice. USB yields some kind of JBL API device but it seems to reset as well, I have not experimented much in that direction.


Also worth noting - after you suggested trying with no speakers plugged in, I measured voltage between gnd and the speaker leads out. Here is what I found:
ch1: 0.6v
ch2: 0.6v
ch3: 3.7-4.7v
ch4: 10.63v (?????)

I'm not sure about the rest, I think another one of the channels was at 10v.

Is that normal?


----------



## mitchyz250f

Andy - Would there be an advantage to go 2nd order on the passive crossover to the tweet? Is there an advantage to adding a xo on the mid?


----------



## 14642

Sure, both of those are good options, so long as the crossover is properly designed. That's no super-simple task, which is why I suggested the simple cap.


----------



## Mic10is

Andy
lets say the battery goes dead. What setting does the MS-8 default to when everything is back to normal?

I had a situation at the last show, after 10+ people listening to the car and my charger barely keeping up. on the last judge, the system shut off due to low voltage. when i hooked up the charger again to get the system playing--center image (w a center channel) was at the right apillar.
Odd thing was, I went through all my favorites and could not get it fixed within the allotted time.

Also, has there ever been a problem with thermal issues?


----------



## jlee3

Andy,
Looking for recommendations for 08 Cadillac CTS with the Bose Nav system. It has 3.25 inch speakers left, right and center dash; 9 inch in front doors; 5.25 in rear doors; 2 3.25 and 10 inch sub in rear deck. All single driver. No tweeters in the car! I have pictures of them...they look pretty unimpressive. I have 3 channels for the dash; 2 for the front doors; 2 for the rear doors and rear deck in parallel and 1 for sub. Xovers are 300; 80; 25. Sounds better but I think more is possible. 
Any suggestions for xover or upgrades? I was thinking of starting with coaxials in the dash.
Thanks,


----------



## VP Electricity

I'd totally do Tang Band bamboos in there in the 3" spots


----------



## Ovalevader

Thanks for those who offered some help, I think I got my issues mostly resolved. A change to some 4 ohm tweets let me run my gain low enough to get rid of most of the hiss. I decided to mount my RCA jacks to the back of my stock headunit instead of tapping in at the factory amp (for those of you looking to install an ms-8 in an 8th civic with premium audio, this is definately the way to go, and not that hard.) While I was back there, I grounded the headunit to the chassis, and disconnected the harness that runs to the factory amp. 

System sounds great now, I'm having some inconsistent issues when running my sweeps, 4 out of 5 sweeps puts the center way right and low. The left tweeter almost isn't even playing. 1 out of 5 works great though, so I guess I'll just have to pay attention to future sweeps.


----------



## jlee3

VP Electricity said:


> I'd totally do Tang Band bamboos in there in the 3" spots


The Tang Band looks interesting although there would be a big difference in efficiency with the stock speakers (low 90s) while at the same time they don't seem to tolerate a lot of power. Quick look at some reviews indicate some possible issues on the high end. Just seems like there should be a tweeter or 2 in the car somewhere.


----------



## t3sn4f2

jlee3 said:


> The Tang Band looks interesting although there would be a big difference in efficiency with the stock speakers (low 90s) while at the same time they don't seem to tolerate a lot of power. Quick look at some reviews indicate some possible issues on the high end. Just seems like there should be a tweeter or 2 in the car somewhere.


Just a heads up, there are a lot of knowledgeable people on here that are running 3" even 2" drivers with higher efficiency large midbass drivers and those little drivers keep up just fine. Reason being that their typical mounting location increases their acoustic efficiency. IOW, they are likely closer so they don't need to play as loud as a severely off axis midbass that is buried in the lower front door and they also take can advantage of off axis reflections off hard dash panels and glass which sum up to augment their output . 

As for their high end, you should not have a problem IF their on axis reflection off the glass falls on your ear's vertical height. Sure their will be a narrow dispersion but it _should not _be a deal breaker.


----------



## jlee3

t3sn4f2 said:


> Just a heads up, there are a lot of knowledgeable people on here that are running 3" even 2" drivers with higher efficiency large midbass drivers and those little drivers keep up just fine. Reason being that their typical mounting location increases their acoustic efficiency. IOW, they are likely closer so they don't need to play as loud as a severely off axis midbass that is buried in the lower front door and they also take can advantage of off axis reflections off hard dash panels and glass which sum up to augment their output .
> 
> As for their high end, you should not have a problem IF their on axis reflection off the glass falls on your ear's vertical height. Sure their will be a narrow dispersion but it _should not _be a deal breaker.


Thanks for the follow up. I'm using search and checking the reviews. Looks like I will be ordering 3 tomorrow.


----------



## t3sn4f2

jlee3 said:


> Thanks for the follow up. I'm using search and checking the reviews. Looks like I will be ordering 3 tomorrow.


I just realized you are running one as center also. You should know that in than application where it needs to be crossed over lower then in atypical 3way (ie 150-200hz) you'll run into output limitations. It will be the least efficient and lowest power handling driver in the whole setup be ause of the lower crossover point, yet it will receive more signal then the left or the right since it get all the center stage Info.


----------



## 14642

Mic10is said:


> Andy
> lets say the battery goes dead. What setting does the MS-8 default to when everything is back to normal?
> 
> I had a situation at the last show, after 10+ people listening to the car and my charger barely keeping up. on the last judge, the system shut off due to low voltage. when i hooked up the charger again to get the system playing--center image (w a center channel) was at the right apillar.
> Odd thing was, I went through all my favorites and could not get it fixed within the allotted time.
> 
> Also, has there ever been a problem with thermal issues?


There have been a few reports here of strange performance when the unit is really hot, but we haven't been able to replicate anything in the lab. Playing the system until the unit shuts off dur to low voltage is something that should be avoided with all systems. The EQ is stored in flash, so it should come back up if the power is disconnected. If you're going to play the system with the car off a lot, buy a 100A power supply from Cascade and mount it under the car somewhere. That's a better deal than using a battery charger, especially if you're using a little one.


----------



## OSN

jlee3 said:


> The Tang Band looks interesting although there would be a big difference in efficiency with the stock speakers (low 90s) while at the same time they don't seem to tolerate a lot of power. Quick look at some reviews indicate some possible issues on the high end. Just seems like there should be a tweeter or 2 in the car somewhere.





t3sn4f2 said:


> I just realized you are running one as center also. You should know that in than application where it needs to be crossed over lower then in atypical 3way (ie 150-200hz) you'll run into output limitations. It will be the least efficient and lowest power handling driver in the whole setup be ause of the lower crossover point, yet it will receive more signal then the left or the right since it get all the center stage Info.


Big fan of the TB bamboo 3s, but for center channel, no bueno. I would check out the Scanspeak Discovery 10Fs that Zaph reviewed recently. Much higher xmax (2.6mm vs .75mm), they stand a chance down to 200Hz. Also, the power handling that they are rated for is full-range- cross them over appropriately and they can handle much more.

Zaph|Audio
Scan-Speak Discovery 10F/4424G, 4" Midrange at Madisound Speaker Components
Scan Discovery, 10F/4424G - 10f4424g by: Scan Speak Discovery -


----------



## VP Electricity

OSN said:


> Big fan of the TB bamboo 3s, but for center channel, no bueno. I would check out the Scanspeak Discovery 10Fs that Zaph reviewed recently. Much higher xmax (2.6mm vs .75mm), they stand a chance down to 200Hz. Also, the power handling that they are rated for is full-range- cross them over appropriately and they can handle much more.
> 
> Zaph|Audio
> Scan-Speak Discovery 10F/4424G, 4" Midrange at Madisound Speaker Components
> Scan Discovery, 10F/4424G - 10f4424g by: Scan Speak Discovery -


Since I am running these, I can say that they probably won't fit. The cast frame is much larger in diameter than the cone, surprisingly so.

_Edited to add:_ I considered them but decided they probably wouldn't fit, but should have mentioned it. It will certainly play a lot lower than the bamboos, and I love mine, so if you're up for some mod - but if you do this much mod, you can put in many 4" if you have the depth. This is more shallow than many 4".


----------



## jlee3

VP Electricity said:


> Since I am running these, I can say that they probably won't fit. The cast frame is much larger in diameter than the cone, surprisingly so.
> 
> _Edited to add:_ I considered them but decided they probably wouldn't fit, but should have mentioned it. It will certainly play a lot lower than the bamboos, and I love mine, so if you're up for some mod - but if you do this much mod, you can put in many 4" if you have the depth. This is more shallow than many 4".


Thanks for the suggestions all. If I were going to mod it I agree it would probably make sense to go to 4 inch.
Strange thing today only the 3 dash speakers are playing and the display is stuck on please wait. Probably bumped something. I added a line converter last night so I could use it's signal sensing to get a turn on signal for the MS8.


----------



## t3sn4f2

jlee3 said:


> Thanks for the suggestions all. If I were going to mod it I agree it would probably make sense to go to 4 inch.
> Strange thing today only the 3 dash speakers are playing and the display is stuck on please wait. Probably bumped something.* I added a line converter last night so I could use it's signal sensing to get a turn on signal for the MS8*.


Are you running the audio signal that goes into the MS-8 through the higlow converter as well or are you just using it with oem channels that don't connect to anything (ie rear out for it front out for MS-8). I ask because those devices aren't very good for signal quality.


----------



## jlee3

t3sn4f2 said:


> Are you running the audio signal that goes into the MS-8 through the higlow converter as well or are you just using it with oem channels that don't connect to anything (ie rear out for it front out for MS-8). I ask because those devices aren't very good for signal quality.


Using an unused oem channel (right rear door).


----------



## t3sn4f2

jlee3 said:


> Using an unused oem channel (right rear door).


Cool beans


----------



## 14642

Why not just hook it to ACC?


----------



## 14642

In any case, the quality of those convertors doesn't matter much. If they attenuate the bass, MS-8 will just put it back in.


----------



## jlee3

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Why not just hook it to ACC?


No such thing in the CTS that I could find. Everything seems to be controlled by the data bus.


----------



## jlee3

jlee3 said:


> Andy,
> Looking for recommendations for 08 Cadillac CTS with the Bose Nav system. It has 3.25 inch speakers left, right and center dash; 9 inch in front doors; 5.25 in rear doors; 2 3.25 and 10 inch sub in rear deck. All single driver. No tweeters in the car! I have pictures of them...they look pretty unimpressive. I have 3 channels for the dash; 2 for the front doors; 2 for the rear doors and rear deck in parallel and 1 for sub. Xovers are 300; 80; 25. Sounds better but I think more is possible.
> Any suggestions for xover or upgrades? I was thinking of starting with coaxials in the dash.
> Thanks,


Andy,
Still chasing this. I am getting better than stock but not near as good as I was looking for. So let me ask this another way. You have said that the MS8 can't fix a bad setup. I can start getting better speakers and add power but is a 9 inch midbass in the doors with a 3 inch mid in the dash doable for great sound? Or should I look to change the configuration...maybe a smaller midrange in the doors with tweeters in the dash or just put everything in the doors. Right now it sounds like the 3 inch speakers are over their head. But I don't want to chase my tail on this.


----------



## jlee3

Found your posts on flat response!


----------



## 14642

jlee3 said:


> Andy,
> Still chasing this. I am getting better than stock but not near as good as I was looking for. So let me ask this another way. You have said that the MS8 can't fix a bad setup. I can start getting better speakers and add power but is a 9 inch midbass in the doors with a 3 inch mid in the dash doable for great sound? Or should I look to change the configuration...maybe a smaller midrange in the doors with tweeters in the dash or just put everything in the doors. Right now it sounds like the 3 inch speakers are over their head. But I don't want to chase my tail on this.


Try moving the crossover between the 8 and the 3 to something like 800Hz -1kHz and use 4th order slopes (24 dB/octave) everywhere.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Try moving the crossover between the 8 and the 3 to something like 800Hz -1kHz and use 4th order slopes (24 dB/octave) everywhere.


and the center 3"?


----------



## OSN

Andy, just wanted to give you props for your outstanding customer service in guiding new technology to the market. Some unnamed company reps show up here acting like consumers owe them something for the pleasure of buying their products, but clearly you and Harman take the concerns of the customer seriously. It's very valuable and very classy.


----------



## alachua

I'm getting a little frustrated with my setup. No matter what I try, my image pulls to the right side. It is specifically noticeable on high-hat cymbals (so, pretty much all the time during rock music). 

Here is a quick list of what I have tried:

Various tweeter x-over points between 2250 and 3500hz
Reducing gain on amp for tweeter channels
moving seating position forward
moving seating position back
orienting head closer to right side of car during sweeps
varying sweep volume between -42db (rears are almost unable to be heard at this level) and -34db
Logic 7 enabled/disabled
Looking further left/right
Looking less left/right
Skipping input setup/completing input calibration

Equipment:
Pioneer Avic F90bt
JL 450/4v1
Polk SR6500 mids in well damped/semi sealed door
Seas Neo Silk dome tweeters in factory mounting location (high on door card behind stock grill, in front of door handles)
No sub currently

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## rain27

alachua said:


> I'm getting a little frustrated with my setup. No matter what I try, my image pulls to the right side. It is specifically noticeable on high-hat cymbals (so, pretty much all the time during rock music).
> 
> Here is a quick list of what I have tried:
> 
> Various tweeter x-over points between 2250 and 3500hz
> Reducing gain on amp for tweeter channels
> moving seating position forward
> moving seating position back
> orienting head closer to right side of car during sweeps
> varying sweep volume between -42db (rears are almost unable to be heard at this level) and -34db
> Logic 7 enabled/disabled
> Looking further left/right
> Looking less left/right
> Skipping input setup/completing input calibration
> 
> Equipment:
> Pioneer Avic F90bt
> JL 450/4v1
> Polk SR6500 mids in well damped/semi sealed door
> Seas Neo Silk dome tweeters in factory mounting location (high on door card behind stock grill, in front of door handles)
> No sub currently
> 
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


This is kind of stating the obvious, but I assume you unplugged the mic? The only time I've had this issue is when the mic was plugged in.


----------



## alachua

rain27 said:


> This is kind of stating the obvious, but I assume you unplugged the mic? The only time I've had this issue is when the mic was plugged in.


Yup, mic is unplugged as soon as configuration is saved.


----------



## katodevin

alachua said:


> I'm getting a little frustrated with my setup. No matter what I try, my image pulls to the right side. It is specifically noticeable on high-hat cymbals (so, pretty much all the time during rock music).


Just as an experiment, test your driver side tweeter more on axis with you.


----------



## t3sn4f2

alachua said:


> I'm getting a little frustrated with my setup. No matter what I try, my image pulls to the right side. It is specifically noticeable on high-hat cymbals (so, pretty much all the time during rock music).
> 
> Here is a quick list of what I have tried:
> 
> Various tweeter x-over points between 2250 and 3500hz
> Reducing gain on amp for tweeter channels
> moving seating position forward
> moving seating position back
> orienting head closer to right side of car during sweeps
> varying sweep volume between -42db (rears are almost unable to be heard at this level) and -34db
> Logic 7 enabled/disabled
> Looking further left/right
> Looking less left/right
> Skipping input setup/completing input calibration
> 
> Equipment:
> Pioneer Avic F90bt
> JL 450/4v1
> Polk SR6500 mids in well damped/semi sealed door
> Seas Neo Silk dome tweeters in factory mounting location (*high on door card behind stock grill, in front of door handles)*
> No sub currently
> 
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


Maybe it's a very bad tweeter location? Got pics or the car model to look up the pics?


----------



## 14642

Guys, I'm on vacation for a week with no email or computer starting today. Just a heads-up, since I won't be here to answer questions.


----------



## alachua

t3sn4f2 said:


> Maybe it's a very bad tweeter location? Got pics or the car model to look up the pics?



The car is a 2004 Subaru Impreza. Here is a pic of how the tweeter is mounted behind the panel. 










I have considered that the mounting location may be to blame, but it doesn't seem to be an issue where all the highs pull right (ride cymbals seem well centered, as do female voices). I don't have access to a garage to experiment with placement right now, plus classes start up in a week, so I may not get a chance to move the tweeters for a while.


----------



## quality_sound

Move the balance to the left and make sure that all the speakers on that side are working. Then I'd test the tweeter and see if both of them are 6 Ohms, or 4 Ohms or whatever they're supposed to be.


----------



## BigRed

check phasing.. things get ugly if something is out of phase


----------



## wiseman454

Looks very shrowded installed like that. Somewhat hard to tel but the install might be giving you a LOT of early reflections. Maybe going with a true flush mount on TOP of the factory grill will help.
Might try double sticking them to the outside to see. That might cause more diffraction than flush mounting but possibly not as many early reflections.
Looks easy enough on your install to give it a shot. 
Good luck.


----------



## alachua

quality_sound said:


> Move the balance to the left and make sure that all the speakers on that side are working. Then I'd test the tweeter and see if both of them are 6 Ohms, or 4 Ohms or whatever they're supposed to be.


All speakers are playing, there is a slight variance in impedance (4.2 vs 4.5 I think), but it doesn't seem like too big a deal.



BigRed said:


> check phasing.. things get ugly if something is out of phase


I should recheck everything, since there is about 4 places I could have messed up the polarity....thanks for the reminder.


----------



## katodevin

Honestly, I think it may be the way the tweeters are mounted.

When I had my tweeters like that - 1 on axis, and 1 off axis, the imaging of the very high end - cymbal shimmer, etc would be pulled to the right, and everything else would be okay.

Seems like it is due to the fact that the higher in freq you go, the more off axis response suffers. So while female vocals, and other "high" things may be centered, the upper end of things will pull to the right.


----------



## Mic10is

anyone have an issue with one side being louder than the other?
What is odd is that I checked each side via SPl meter and they are both the same, but the right sound seems much louder and vice versa from pass side.

I even got a comment about it on a score sheet and from another judge, that from driver seat that left side information seems very weak.


----------



## hallsc

To current MS-8 users:
I have heard at least two separate people describe the sound as "shouty/clock radio-ish." I am sorry but I don't remember if this ended up being a calibration/gain matching issue, or from not using center and/or rears, and I really don't feel like roaming the last 60 pages as I just worked a 13-hour workday and I am tired and grumpy. I mean it could also be that the individuals liked their music "not-flat." I have already purchased one of these, and I don't want to install it unless I go all the way (centers/rears) and frankly I am getting nervous about cutting a hole in my dash for a center speaker and not liking the results. I know there have been at least 20-30 good reviews for every bad one, but I am Nervous Nelly and I haven't even heard a system with one of these bad boys in them. I don't think there is anyone on here in the vicinity who has an MS-8 installed, so hearing one in a well-put-together system beore taking the plunge is probably not going to happen. However, has anyone done an RTA of pink noise pre-calibration and then post calibration of the MS-8 (or at least post calibration, since I guess the end product is what matters)?


----------



## rockondon

hallsc said:


> To current MS-8 users:
> I have heard at least two separate people describe the sound as "shouty/clock radio-ish." I am sorry but I don't remember if this ended up being a calibration/gain matching issue, or from not using center and/or rears, and I really don't feel like roaming the last 60 pages as I just worked a 13-hour workday and I am tired and grumpy. I mean it could also be that the individuals liked their music "not-flat." I have already purchased one of these, and I don't want to install it unless I go all the way (centers/rears) and frankly I am getting nervous about cutting a hole in my dash for a center speaker and not liking the results. I know there have been at least 20-30 good reviews for every bad one, but I am Nervous Nelly and I haven't even heard a system with one of these bad boys in them. I don't think there is anyone on here in the vicinity who has an MS-8 installed, so hearing one in a well-put-together system beore taking the plunge is probably not going to happen. However, has anyone done an RTA of pink noise pre-calibration and then post calibration of the MS-8 (or at least post calibration, since I guess the end product is what matters)?


 I feel you pain. I just started to play with mine today.
But I really agonized real bad over the center issue for like 6 weeks. My ride has a 3.5 factory And nobody makes one worth a damm. Same with a good 4 comp or coax.
So I jumped in with both feet and half a set of 5.25 comps to keep up with my doors. And yes I had to cut the dash to make em fit.
[same brand to help timber match]

For now I can say I'm not regretting doing it. 
But I see your point about wanting to hear it yourself.
G/L


----------



## quality_sound

rockondon said:


> I feel you pain. I just started to play with mine today.
> But I really agonized real bad over the center issue for like 6 weeks. My ride has a 3.5 factory And nobody makes one worth a damm. Same with a good 4 comp or coax.
> So I jumped in with both feet and half a set of 5.25 comps to keep up with my doors. And yes I had to cut the dash to make em fit.
> [same brand to help timber match]
> 
> For now I can say I'm not regretting doing it.
> But I see your point about wanting to hear it yourself.
> G/L


Morel makes a 4" component and coax that are really good. Rainbow has numerous 4" components and German Maestro does as well. German Maestro is basically the pre-DEI MB Quart. Then there's H-Audio and Hybrid. I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch too.


----------



## 14642

alachua said:


> The car is a 2004 Subaru Impreza. Here is a pic of how the tweeter is mounted behind the panel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have considered that the mounting location may be to blame, but it doesn't seem to be an issue where all the highs pull right (ride cymbals seem well centered, as do female voices). I don't have access to a garage to experiment with placement right now, plus classes start up in a week, so I may not get a chance to move the tweeters for a while.


Driver's side is so far off axis that I'd bet at really high frequencies you're not hearing much from that side. How big is that tweeter?


----------



## rockondon

quality_sound said:


> Morel makes a 4" component and coax that are really good. Rainbow has numerous 4" components and German Maestro does as well. German Maestro is basically the pre-DEI MB Quart. Then there's H-Audio and Hybrid. I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch too.


My bad ,I should have said not many 4in are worth a darn.
And I do have a set of QSD-210s [pre DEI] ,and I like them for fours. How much better are those Maestro's

For me I have the Dyn-360 in the doors. So a 5.25 center works well [so far]
And a "new" hole in the dash is still a big step from no hole in the dash.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Driver's side is so far off axis that I'd bet at really high frequencies you're not hearing much from that side. How big is that tweeter?


Seas neo 1"

They apear to be fairly aimed though.

Maybe its that they are recessed a good bit behind the factory gril due to the clearance needed by the tweeters plastic diffuser mount.

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2004/2004-Subaru-Impreza-WRX-STi-Interior-1024x768.jpg


----------



## alachua

The aiming appears much better in that picture than it really is. The tweeter opening is aimed pretty squarely at my stomach and the angling required to put the tweeter behind the factory grill points it downward some more. Looks like I need to get motivated in the next few days and move them up on the dash before classes start.


----------



## rockondon

Any one that can help [because Andy is a busy guy lately]

When you begin the start up. Should there be any sound from the speakers
when you insert the MS-8 cd.?? Or is the unit measuring the input signal coming into the MS-8 unit only.

If so then i presume the acoustic calibration and time alignment are done simultaneously during the "look forward ,look side" part of setup. ?


----------



## Mic10is

rockondon said:


> Any one that can help [because Andy is a busy guy lately]
> 
> When you begin the start up. Should there be any sound from the speakers
> when you insert the MS-8 cd.?? Or is the unit measuring the input signal coming into the MS-8 unit only.
> 
> If so then i presume the acoustic calibration and time alignment are done simultaneously during the "look forward ,look side" part of setup. ?


NO sound until u complete calibration. 1st set is time alignment. next 3 are spacial averaging for EQ


----------



## rockondon

Mic10is said:


> NO sound until u complete calibration. 1st set is time alignment. next 3 are spacial averaging for EQ


Thank you for clearing it up for me.
So that explains the having to "look forward" twice.


----------



## SC300T

Can anyone help me out with a BMW head unit and MS-8 integration? I'm wondering if I can get by with going from the HU directly to the MS8. The BMW has balanced differential line outputs that are supposedly very high level. (up to 11v p-p) This is on a 2001 325i (E46).

Most people with these cars do a line driver to get to line level RCA output, then to the amps. I want to avoid this if possible for SQ reasons.

TIA

Scott Hureau


----------



## Technic

SC300T said:


> Can anyone help me out with a BMW head unit and MS-8 integration? I'm wondering if I can get by with going from the HU directly to the MS8. The BMW has balanced differential line outputs that are supposedly very high level. (up to 11v p-p) This is on a 2001 325i (E46).
> 
> Most people with these cars do a line driver to get to line level RCA output, then to the amps. I want to avoid this if possible for SQ reasons.
> 
> TIA
> 
> Scott Hureau


You should be fine going directly from the OEM HU to the MS-8 low level inputs (RCA). That's what I'm doing in my setup (2008 E90 M3).


----------



## Grendel

*Paradigm Shift: for me and my SQ expert*

The vehicle in question is a 2010 GMC Sierra Crew Cab, with a completely stock set up right now



Existing equipment, either in my hands or on order:
Alpine IVA-W505
I-Pod
Morel Supremo Piccolos X2
Scan Speak 4.5" mid range x2
Peerless 8" mid bass X2
12" Focal Sub (x1)
JBL MS-8 x1
eight good channels of amplification. 
A ton of sound deadening
 multiple sets of components (Boston Acoustic, Focal, Polk Momo (all older models)

Intent: really good sound with all music types, NAV, - No movies - frequently carrying passengers. I like to feel my music, but not a basshead.

The original install plan - before reading this thread:

Tweets and mid range on their own amped channels in kick panels, aimed for my ears in the driver's seat.
mid bass in the front doors on their own channels
sub under the rear seat on their own channels

Now, after reading this thread, we have a quandry... we're throwing away everything "we" (my expert, not me) knows about audio installation and imaging, etc.

New plan: with considerable questions...


obtain and add a third Picolo and 4.5" mid range, install in dash somewhere (need help, as it would probably be aimed at the windshield!!!). All three component groups on their own passive cross over (any suggestions?), tied to three channels on the MS-8

Add a set of components into the rear door, I have several to choose from, Boston Accoustics or Polk Momo's for rear fill - on two channels of amplification.

Existing picolos and mids 
in the a-pillars
or
in kick panels

It's almost impossible to get a third mid bass in the dash somewhere...


8" mid bass in the doors??? 
or
8" mid bass under the front seats?

Should be noted the mid bass will be on their own channels of amplification:

Thoughts?

Looking for the best possible set up with the MS-8 providing the most control, but with the best sounding installation.

Before reading this thread, we were following best practices, with a no compromise installation. Now, we're both scratching our heads, saying this would sound like **** without the JBL, if we installed per the optimal MS-8 conditions listed in the thread. I know I am just boggled.


----------



## mitchyz250f

I have a three way front end, so I am going to have to run passives between the mid and tweets in the front and center channel. My mids are in the lower doors. It has been written that crossing you tweeters lower, let say 2500Hz or so will bring the sound stage up. Is this critical with the MS-8 with a center channel? If I have to cross low I am thinking of Seas neo or TB ceramics, otherwise I will use my LPG's.

What do you guys suggest?


----------



## doitor

mitchyz250f said:


> It has been written that crossing you tweeters lower, let say 2500Hz or so will bring the sound stage up. Is this critical with the MS-8 with a center channel?


I've been playing around with different setups.
Right now, I'm using the tweeters up in the dash/pillar (L1 Pro SE's), Midrange/Midbass in the kicks (L8), center (HAT Imagine 6 in coaxial mode) plus the sub.
Tweeters are crossed at 4.5 khz
Mids play from 63 up to 4.5 khz
Center from 80 hz up
Sub from 63 hz down
All with 24 db per octave slopes.
Stage is high and flat. No rainbow effect.
Even if I turn Logic7 off, which turns the center off, the stage stays high.

J.


----------



## andoneward

has anyone's calibration CD not play for them? My cd player will not play it and neither will my computer. I put a normal CD into both and they played just fine so it is not the player.

Anybody got some suggestions or a digital version that can be sent via email?


----------



## mitchyz250f

Thanks Doitor. I will stick with the LPG's for the time being.


----------



## kapone

I think I asked this question before, but I'm not sure if it got answered one way or the other.

With an MS-8, which speakers are "more" important? Side or Rears? 

The reason I ask is, because in the 740, I can put speakers (components or coaxials) in the rear doors, which would constitute "side" speakers, and put speakers (components or coaxials) in the rear deck OEM enclosure, which would constitute "rear" speakers.

The "component" speakers would be PPI 355cs and the "coaxials" would be PPI DCX-600C. The front stage and center will be PPI 356cs. The reason I'm waffling is because the DCX sets have titanium tweeters, while the 355cs have the silk dome. Does that matter at ALL?

How much effect will having dissimilar tweeters in the side/rears vs the front have on the overall SQ??


----------



## quality_sound

If you can run both sides and rears then do it. If you can only do one and sides is an option then do the sides since the the rears will be processed as sides anyway.


----------



## t3sn4f2

quality_sound said:


> If you can run both sides and rears then do it. If you can only do one and sides is an option then do the sides since *the the rears will be processed as sides anyway.*


sides will be processed as rears*, when rear out is not active. (?)


----------



## kapone

quality_sound said:


> If you can run both sides and rears then do it. If you can only do one and sides is an option then do the sides since the the rears will be processed as sides anyway.


I can certainly do both, I have enough speakers, locations, and amp channels. My waffling is due to the dissimilar tweeters between the two different sets. The rear deck speakers, even though under a cover, get exposed to the sun quite a bit, and it may be "wasteful" to put good speakers there IF, the rears are not as important as sides.

If they are, well, then 355cs is it, for the rear as well. (I have two sets of 355cs to cover both sides and rears if need be)


----------



## mitchyz250f

I agree with Sound Quality. 

Andy wrote this a while ago; 'If you won't put 4 speakers in the back and you'll use only 2 instead, MS-8 will process them as sides. That's no problem and the difference between 5.1 and 7.1 is really hard to hear. It's nice to have rears and sides if you'll have rear seat passengers. Logic 7 in OE systems mixes some front-steered information into the sides, so the rear seat passengers have their own stage at the back of the front seats. Making those adjustments is car and speaker-location dependent and it's seriously difficult to do without screwing everything else up. MS-8 will provide a single stage, located at or in front of the dashboard for all seating positions. I prefer that and it happens automatically and easily when the front seats are right.'


----------



## Grendel

*Re: Paradigm Shift: for me and my SQ expert*



Grendel said:


> The vehicle in question is a 2010 GMC Sierra Crew Cab, with a completely stock set up right now
> 
> 
> 
> Existing equipment, either in my hands or on order:
> Alpine IVA-W505
> I-Pod
> Morel Supremo Piccolos X2
> Scan Speak 4.5" mid range x2
> Peerless 8" mid bass X2
> 12" Focal Sub (x1)
> JBL MS-8 x1
> eight good channels of amplification.
> A ton of sound deadening
> multiple sets of components (Boston Acoustic, Focal, Polk Momo (all older models)
> 
> Intent: really good sound with all music types, NAV, - No movies - frequently carrying passengers. I like to feel my music, but not a basshead.
> 
> The original install plan - before reading this thread:
> 
> Tweets and mid range on their own amped channels in kick panels, aimed for my ears in the driver's seat.
> mid bass in the front doors on their own channels
> sub under the rear seat on their own channels
> 
> Now, after reading this thread, we have a quandry... we're throwing away everything "we" (my expert, not me) knows about audio installation and imaging, etc.
> 
> New plan: with considerable questions...
> 
> 
> obtain and add a third Picolo and 4.5" mid range, install in dash somewhere (need help, as it would probably be aimed at the windshield!!!). All three component groups on their own passive cross over (any suggestions?), tied to three channels on the MS-8
> 
> Add a set of components into the rear door, I have several to choose from, Boston Accoustics or Polk Momo's for rear fill - on two channels of amplification.
> 
> Existing picolos and mids
> in the a-pillars
> or
> in kick panels
> 
> It's almost impossible to get a third mid bass in the dash somewhere...
> 
> 
> 8" mid bass in the doors???
> or
> 8" mid bass under the front seats?
> 
> Should be noted the mid bass will be on their own channels of amplification:
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Looking for the best possible set up with the MS-8 providing the most control, but with the best sounding installation.
> 
> Before reading this thread, we were following best practices, with a no compromise installation. Now, we're both scratching our heads, saying this would sound like **** without the JBL, if we installed per the optimal MS-8 conditions listed in the thread. I know I am just boggled.


Anyone?


----------



## boarder124

What i think is the best thing about the ms-8 is that one could easily tune their system while driving at different speeds. If i had one of these units i would have a setting for stationary listening and ones for 30 mph, 55mph, and 70 mph. Has anyone tried this yet? i feel it would give you the best sound quality while your driving the car, which is what a car is made for.


----------



## distronic

boarder124 said:


> What i think is the best thing about the ms-8 is that one could easily tune their system while driving at different speeds. If i had one of these units i would have a setting for stationary listening and ones for 30 mph, 55mph, and 70 mph. Has anyone tried this yet? i feel it would give you the best sound quality while your driving the car, which is what a car is made for.


I think someone mentioned having a measured setting for driving on the highway. I believe even the Jaguar's Bowers & Wilkins sound system has speed sensitive equalization settings (city/highway/some other). I don't know if it would make sense to do this or how it would affect the sound though. I say that, because the "sound/noise" that wind makes or the chassis of your car makes from the contact of the tires to the road is only heard on a few frequencies. If the measuring process was listening for specific frequencies and you had the wind/road generating that frequency in your car, wouldn't it _modify_ those frequencies? I believe there is more to it than that, but that is my limited-knowledge concern. My car has speed sensitivity in the OEM headunit (maybe it is in a separate module), but it would be great if this was a practical/sound thing to do. Imagine having real-time equalization in the car! Then it'd be a matter of how to get that information...


----------



## Grendel

distronic said:


> I think someone mentioned having a measured setting for driving on the highway. I believe even the Jaguar's Bowers & Wilkins sound system has speed sensitive equalization settings (city/highway/some other). I don't know if it would make sense to do this or how it would affect the sound though. I say that, because the "sound/noise" that wind makes or the chassis of your car makes from the contact of the tires to the road is only heard on a few frequencies. If the measuring process was listening for specific frequencies and you had the wind/road generating that frequency in your car, wouldn't it _modify_ those frequencies? I believe there is more to it than that, but that is my limited-knowledge concern. My car has speed sensitivity in the OEM headunit (maybe it is in a separate module), but it would be great if this was a practical/sound thing to do. Imagine having real-time equalization in the car! Then it'd be a matter of how to get that information...



Not hard to pull the VSS signal from the vehicle control module.

GM's offer it right into the dash... The speed sensitive stereos use it.


----------



## blackreplica

quick and dirty question for those in the know

If i have the option to mount side channel speakers (without 'rear' channel) in the FRONT doors, should i do it?

Or just stick em in the back?

I can't help feeling all that out of phase stuff steered to the sides (in absence of rears) would be better used if they were played up front rather than at the back. Is this reasoning correct or just bollocks?

the tradeoff in my application is that by putting my sides up front, i have a max diameter of 2.5inch per driver. In the back parcel shelf i can easily fit 6 inchers

which is the better option?


----------



## DS-21

If they're in the back of the front doors (think Merc 300CE) maybe. Otherwise, no.


----------



## t3sn4f2

boarder124 said:


> What i think is the best thing about the ms-8 is that one could easily tune their system while driving at different speeds. If i had one of these units i would have a setting for stationary listening and ones for 30 mph, 55mph, and 70 mph. Has anyone tried this yet? i feel it would give you the best sound quality while your driving the car, which is what a car is made for.


You can only save/use one calibration. You can have more then one EQ and tone preset but that's about it.


----------



## boarder124

That's to bad. I suppose you could still do an rta sweep with a labtop/mic and have a eq setting for each speed instead.


----------



## Horsemanwill

anyone use a ms8 with a 2006 cadillac dts or similar keeping factory speakers? if so what did u do about the sub being 1 ohm?


----------



## BigRed

you can have 4 calibration settings:

driver, passenger, etc......

i think it would be challenging to "point your head at the drivers mirror" while driving 50mph down the street. good luck with that and be careful


----------



## t3sn4f2

BigRed said:


> you can have 4 calibration settings:
> 
> driver, passenger, etc......
> 
> i think it would be challenging to "point your head at the drivers mirror" while driving 50mph down the street. good luck with that and be careful


Ah true, I forgot about the positions setting. 

Two calibrations presets then only since the front and rear would use more then one seating position at once.


----------



## subwoofery

I'm not a competitor but I'm sure some would like to have a calibration setting while driving and another setting with the seats all the way back. 

Kelvin


----------



## thehatedguy

No need to. My calibration is with the seats all the way back...sounds pretty darned good with them in normal driving position too.



subwoofery said:


> I'm not a competitor but I'm sure some would like to have a calibration setting while driving and another setting with the seats all the way back.
> 
> Kelvin


----------



## trevordj

Hey Andy, I hope you are still checking this thread. I powered up my MS-8 for the first time today. I have the remote in from the factory harness to the MS-8 and then the MS-8 remote out to a relay powering 4 amplifiers, the OEM amplifier, and a set of fans. 

My problem is that I am not getting ANY voltage out of the MS-8 remote out. I checked all my connections and power and could not figure out why. Any suggestions? Maybe a phone call would be easier?


----------



## trevordj

I should mention I am using a Radio Shack relay 12VDC/40A (part no 275-001) with a published 130mA current draw, well within the 1 amp limit of the MS-8 according to the owner's manual. There is a quenching diode in place.


----------



## 14642

No Idea, If you remove the connection to the relay from MS-8, do you have voltage then? Are you checking with a meter?


----------



## 14642

thehatedguy said:


> No need to. My calibration is with the seats all the way back...sounds pretty darned good with them in normal driving position too.


 
Why is is necessary to have the seats all the way back?


----------



## trevordj

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No Idea, If you remove the connection to the relay from MS-8, do you have voltage then? Are you checking with a meter?


Removing the connection from the MS-8 still leaves me with 0 volts (checked with a meter). Interestingly, my initial thought was there was possibly something wrong with the relay circuit. So, I bypassed the relay itself and everything powered up. Then I double checked the wiring at the relay itself. Everything looks ok. Finally, I hooked the relay circuit in parallel with the remote in to the MS-8 and everything powered up. It really just seems there is no power to remote out. Is there an internal fuse or something that could have blown?


----------



## hallsc

Andy,

Has there been any progress in working out the BT echo issue? I think this is the last thing keeping me from going forward with putting my MS-8 into effect, but this is a big one. I am in the military, and BT through the stereo is tthe only way you can talk on a cell phone, and in VA and I think FL (my home and my current duty station) they are going the same route....Obviously I don't want to simplify/trivialize the issues you guys are having working this out, but there isn't a way for the MS-8 to bypass all of its processing and just let the signal go straight through, eliminating the 8 ms delay? If not would this be a possible software update or is this a hardware prevention?


----------



## Technic

hallsc said:


> Andy,
> 
> Has there been any progress in working out the BT echo issue? I think this is the last thing keeping me from going forward with putting my MS-8 into effect, but this is a big one. I am in the military, and BT through the stereo is tthe only way you can talk on a cell phone, and in VA and I think FL (my home and my current duty station) they are going the same route....Obviously I don't want to simplify/trivialize the issues you guys are having working this out, but there isn't a way for the MS-8 to bypass all of its processing and just let the signal go straight through, eliminating the 8 ms delay? If not would this be a possible software update or is this a hardware prevention?


I don't have any BT echo while using the low level inputs of the MS-8 in a MY2008 E90 M3 with the OEM HiFi system configuration (balanced outputs).


----------



## trevordj

Hey Andy, disregard the remote out problem. I still don't know what was going on but I went out today to double check everything (which looked ok) and reset the unit. Everything works flawlessly now. 

I just tuned for the first time with the new system. So far I am VERY impressed!


----------



## NSTar

Just got my MS-8 and got a question. There is 8 rca input but the freakn instruction says to use only one front left and one front right channel. Why have all 8 inputs when you don't use the rest?????????

I don't get it.


----------



## quality_sound

Apparently you didn't RTFM. You have to use all 8 if you need signal-summing done.


----------



## NSTar

quality_sound said:


> Apparently you didn't RTFM. You have to use all 8 if you need signal-summing done.


apparently you didn't read the F'n manual! there was no mentioning of that whatsoever! Even the HI level input only uses LF,RF, and subwoofer.

the question stands...why have 8 line input when you can only use 2????

same question for HI level input.

I guess it was an oversight by the designer...later found out it wasn't necessary.


----------



## t3sn4f2

NSTar said:


> apparently you didn't read the F'n manual! there was no mentioning of that whatsoever! Even the HI level input only uses LF,RF, and subwoofer.
> 
> *the question stands...why have 8 line input when you can only use 2????*
> same question for HI level input.
> 
> I guess it was an oversight by the designer...later found out it wasn't necessary.


For when you don't have two. When you have an OEM _active_ system that is too low in level to use the MS-8's high level inputs, yet still needs the summing capabilities.


----------



## trevordj

NSTar said:


> apparently you didn't read the F'n manual! there was no mentioning of that whatsoever! Even the HI level input only uses LF,RF, and subwoofer.
> 
> the question stands...why have 8 line input when you can only use 2????
> 
> same question for HI level input.
> 
> I guess it was an oversight by the designer...later found out it wasn't necessary.


You are correct. I believe Andy stated somewhere in this thread that the device was originally planned to be able to use all 8 inputs but this was abandoned as they got deeper into software design if I remember correctly. At that point tooling was already complete so, rather than have to re-tool (and further delay production), they chose to keep it and leave the extra inputs unused.


----------



## quality_sound

NSTar said:


> apparently you didn't read the F'n manual! there was no mentioning of that whatsoever! Even the HI level input only uses LF,RF, and subwoofer.
> 
> the question stands...why have 8 line input when you can only use 2????
> 
> same question for HI level input.
> 
> I guess it was an oversight by the designer...later found out it wasn't necessary.


Oh jeez, now I need to scan that page.


----------



## 14642

Guys,
If you're using an aftermarket radio, there's noneed to use the additional 6 RCA inputs on the unit. If you're using a factory radio, then you should use the speaker level inputs and connect to as many chanels of the factory system as is required to provide the MS-8 the entire front right and left signal plus the output for the sub, if there is a sub. We left the additional 6 RCA inputs intact in case there are cases where the output of the factory system doesn't provide enough voltage to register during setup or in case there's a need to sum speaker level and RCA level.

The owner's manual and the quick start guide are written as instruction for installing the system and making it work. They aren't intended to explain WHY everything works. If we had written that, it would be hundreds of pages long and itseems that even a relatively concise quick start guide is too much to read and follow.

Get this, we had a local (soCal) dealer install one for a reviewer. Took the veteran installer 16 hours to install it incorrectly for which the dealer charged us $1700. Finally, Gary Biggs had to fly out here while I was overseas to check it out and ultimately, turn the volume down during calibration.


----------



## rjorge

There seems to be a lot of problems related to the volume during setup. I am sure you have thought about this, but why not have a separate setup just to find the optimal volume? Something like a quick sweep and let the MS-8 set the appropriate level of output during setup?


----------



## MaXaZoR

rjorge said:


> There seems to be a lot of problems related to the volume during setup. I am sure you have thought about this, but why not have a separate setup just to find the optimal volume? Something like a quick sweep and let the MS-8 set the appropriate level of output during setup?


I agree on this, when I was first setting up the unit it took me a lot of trial and error to get the optimal level for the sweeps. If the MS-8 needs/wants a certain db level, please inform us (the users) or build in another checkpoint in the software to help make sure it's at the optimal level. Just saying 'low speaking level' really isn't helpful.


----------



## NSTar

what is the optimum decibel? ... i have a tool to measure it.


----------



## 14642

NSTar said:


> what is the optimum decibel? ... i have a tool to measure it.


I dunno. I'll see if I can go measure one.


----------



## Hernan

Sorry for the dumb question...

Does Logic7 works without a center channel but with sides?
THX!

BTW: I'm very happy and having fun with the unit!

Today I install a center with a simple widebander. 150 and up. Nice. 
I'm loosing too much without using a bigger speaker? In fact I have to lower the output of the center in order to get better stage deep.


----------



## BigRed

Andy, Pm'd you 3 weeks ago with no response. issues again with your mailbox?


----------



## Horsemanwill

BigRed said:


> Andy, Pm'd you 3 weeks ago with no response. issues again with your mailbox?


x2 emailed too


----------



## michaelsil1

Horsemanwill said:


> x2 emailed too


x3 :faint:


----------



## rockondon

Andy......I have been playing and trying several different combinations with my MS-8. The one's I like best is 3.1 or 2.1. 
Somehow the side and/or rears are not blending in very well for me. Might just be to long listening to 2 channel IDK.
[before you ask. all speaker connections are wired + to + - to -.]
The sides are coax mounted low in the door [stock locations]

Now I am happy with the MS-8
But is there a best location and/or height for mounting sides.??
I am contemplating the rear most pillars as a possible good location.
[The car is a small SUV. So no rear deck.]

Or any other suggestion to try to get the most from the MS-8.


----------



## rjorge

If I remember correctly, andy's suggestion for the rears are for them to play only above 100hz and to have the tweeters mounted at ear level.


----------



## rockondon

rjorge said:


> If I remember correctly, andy's suggestion for the rears are for them to play only above 100hz and to have the tweeters mounted at ear level.


Yes I remember that ,and thank you.^

I was asking more specifically if the D pillars are a good or bad choice to run sides. Rather than cutting holes in a 300$ plastic to "experiment" 
[ The location im interested in would allow the mid n tweeter to stay together ,and be at ear level. ] And really suck bad if it doesnt. 

Anybody have experience with doing what im suggesting.??


----------



## mitchyz250f

Andy said ear level was best. He said the sides made it sound wider and the rears 'longer'. He said if you could not have both sides and rears, put the speakers in between the sides and rear. He also said the differences either way would be minor, so all in all, 'D' pillars sound fine.

Look at what doitor just did in his build log, 'D' pillars.


----------



## MLS

Would the MS-8 eliminate the need for the waiveguides that come with the JBL 660 gti set? I figured the waiveguides and the MS-8 would be great together, but finding a practical place to mount the tweeter with the waiveguides is proving difficult. If there is a difference, how dramatic would it be?


----------



## n_olympios

mitchyz250f said:


> Look at what doitor just did in his build log, 'D' pillars.


Yep, same in my build too. D pillars will do fine.


----------



## rockondon

mitchyz250f said:


> Andy said ear level was best. He said the sides made it sound wider and the rears 'longer'. He said if you could not have both sides and rears, put the speakers in between the sides and rear. He also said the differences either way would be minor, so all in all, 'D' pillars sound fine.
> 
> Look at what doitor just did in his build log, 'D' pillars.





n_olympios said:


> Yep, same in my build too. D pillars will do fine.


Thanks for the tip and nice job on both. [I looked] But only doiter made any comment about how he liked it.

So i still hope the Big Dog will chime in. [sigh][fingers crossed]

And IIRC you cant do rear without choosing sides first. So these would be playing as sides. But in the rear D pillars and at a better height.


----------



## n_olympios

rockondon said:


> Thanks for the tip and nice job on both. [I looked] But only doiter made any comment about how he liked it.


That's because out of the two of us, he's the only one with a working system. Oh, and an MS-8. :laugh:


----------



## ezutel

rockondon said:


> Yes I remember that ,and thank you.^
> 
> I was asking more specifically if the D pillars are a good or bad choice to run sides. Rather than cutting holes in a 300$ plastic to "experiment"
> [ The location im interested in would allow the mid n tweeter to stay together ,and be at ear level. ] And really suck bad if it doesnt.
> 
> Anybody have experience with doing what im suggesting.??


 I think doitor is running rears like that


----------



## BigRed

side or rear will work fine. the ms8 will do the rest. really, its not that serious


----------



## 14642

BigRed said:


> side or rear will work fine. the ms8 will do the rest. really, its not that serious


 
Precisely.


----------



## doitor

ezutel said:


> I think doitor is running rears like that


Yes, Sir.




























J.


----------



## thehatedguy

<- has his rears at 60 hertz and up. I had them at 50, but the factory grills moved too much.


----------



## NSTar

what size speakers? how does it sound? i think it could move to the kick ...the ms8 wont know the location, it'll just measure the signal and then compensate.


----------



## utc_pyro

I noticed in the MS-8 setup, you can run two sub channels instead of a center channel. Can the MS-8 deal with two VERY different subs on each channel?

I'm considering hooking my OEM sub (Subaru self powered) up to the second output until I build a center channel speaker. It's a small ~8" under-seat deal that picks up it's audio from the front two channels. I was going to replace the harness to it and run a high level output over to it. I'm not sure at the specifics of it's ratings or anything, but it's something like 30W and right under the driver. If the MS-8 is too "hot" signal wise for it, I can modify its amp to take a line level input.

My other sub is a IDQ10V2 in a .7cf sealed box at my passengers side rear quarter panel. It's being powered by half of the amp doing my rear channel, to the tune of 300W. 

Is this worth even trying, or should I just go ahead and rip the old sub out to sell?


----------



## 14642

The sub channels are mono and are treated together as one. The sub isn't stereo and those two channels aren't EQed differently. The two channels are simply there to make it easy to run two amps. Don't use the single under-seat woofer.


----------



## utc_pyro

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The sub channels are mono and are treated together as one. The sub isn't stereo and those two channels aren't EQed differently. The two channels are simply there to make it easy to run two amps. Don't use the single under-seat woofer.


Thanks, that's what I needed to know. I'll rip it out tomorrow.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> *The sub channels are mono and are treated together as one.* The sub isn't stereo and those two channels aren't EQed differently. The two channels are simply there to make it easy to run two amps. Don't use the single under-seat woofer.


Levels as well? So we can use the 2 outputs when running them into a bridged two channel that requires both left and right inputs filled to put out full power?


----------



## chippy

I've got a PIONEER GM-D7500M DIGITAL MONO BLOCK AMPLIFIER, it has 2 inputs left and right. Currently I have one RCA from MS-8 to the amp. Should I provide a signal to both amp inputs? What is the logic behind having 2 inputs into a mono amp?


----------



## drocpsu

so ive read through a bunch of pages here, but haven't been able to figure this out...

How useful is the MS8 as an OEM-integration unit if someone is only running a normal stereo, 2-way front stage + sub? No surround sound, no center channel, etc? The unit's capabilities certainly are impressive, but it seems so overkill to me. What would the benefit be of this over something like a BitOne or cleansweep, etc?


----------



## rommelrommel

Well, it's in the same pricerange as the Bitone. 

It's lightyears ahead of a cleansweep or anything like that, as those types only do signal summing. 

The major advantages are internal amps, *autotune*, a shelf filter on the sub output, and it still allows some manual tuning.


----------



## mitchyz250f

Andy, did you say at one point that sail panels were the best/simplest location for tweeters? Would on axis be better than off. This is with a center cnannel of course.


----------



## t3sn4f2

mitchyz250f said:


> Andy, did you say at one point that sail panels were the best/simplest location for tweeters? Would on axis be better than off. This is with a center cnannel of course.


Dunno if he said it's the best, but that's what he consistently recommends......

DIYMA.com - Search Results


----------



## jrsmiles

I have to ask this question, If I could follow every reply here I would, but...

Did the factory Bluetooth echo problem ever get resolved? I really miss my Bluetooth in my Acura, I just simply can't have the speaker phone and MS-8 running together, too many complaints from my callers.


----------



## kaigoss69

jrsmiles said:


> I have to ask this question, If I could follow every reply here I would, but...
> 
> Did the factory Bluetooth echo problem ever get resolved? I really miss my Bluetooth in my Acura, I just simply can't have the speaker phone and MS-8 running together, too many complaints from my callers.


I'd like to know as well!


----------



## t3sn4f2

_I_ havn't seen anything on it yet.


----------



## trevordj

jrsmiles said:


> I have to ask this question, If I could follow every reply here I would, but...
> 
> Did the factory Bluetooth echo problem ever get resolved? I really miss my Bluetooth in my Acura, I just simply can't have the speaker phone and MS-8 running together, too many complaints from my callers.





kaigoss69 said:


> I'd like to know as well!





t3sn4f2 said:


> _I_ havn't seen anything on it yet.


Solution to MS-8 BT Echo Issue? 




Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So...after months of trying to come up with a software solution, here's the deal:
> 
> It is, in fact, the delay through the DSP. All DSPs have this issue and will affect bluetooth with echo-cancellation, to some extent. There's no universal way to introcuce a compensating delay anywhere because the cancellation algorithm operates within the module.
> 
> The alternate speaker method presented here is a good one. There's another way too. If you choose a factory speaker that you'd like to use for hands free, you can connect the output of the factory head to the normally open contacts of a DPDT relay and to the input of MS-8. The output of MS-8 for that channel should be connected to the normally closed contacts of the same relay. The speaker should be connected to the Common terminals. Install a switch that activates the relay somewhere convenient. Then, when you get a call, mute MS-8 with the remote and flip the switch. The handsfree will be sent to the speaker and there won't be an echo. You can do this with as many channels as you need or want to.



From my build log, my workaround for the issue: 




trevordj said:


> Here is my solution to the bluetooth echo issue:
> 
> I ran an extra set of speaker wires to the stock amplifier. The MS-8 was hooked up to the rear outputs of the stock amp and the Vifa TC9FD-18-08 3-1/2" full range drivers were hooked directly to the front channels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seats removed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and speaker wires ran
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After making some simple baffles and covering covered them in carpet. The speakers were screwed in place and attached under the front of the seat facing the front of the car using some L-brackets.


It seems that a workaround is the best we are going to get at this point. It's pretty easy though and works well.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Thanks, I missed that post by Andy. So no fix is possible, just work arounds.  Oh well.


----------



## kaigoss69

That's one hell of a workaround! So you pause the MS-8 during a call?

Technic is reporting no BT echo issues after bypassing the speaker-level outputs of the OEM amp and using a low-level balanced signal directly from the HU. This allows him to skip the de-eq procedure. Is this what adds the delay? So using the RCA inputs on the MS-8 means no BT echo problem?


----------



## trevordj

kaigoss69 said:


> That's one hell of a workaround! So you pause the MS-8 during a call?


No, no pausing required. Like many OEM systems, the Volvo stock system plays only through the front speakers when using bluetooth. Further, it defeats any fading with music playback (and pauses the music) if when the bluetooth system is activated. So, the MS-8 is hooked up to the rear speaker outputs of the stock amp and the bluetooth speakers are hooked up to the front speaker outputs. The stock HU is faded all the way to the rear. Music playback therefore only occurs through the rear speaker outputs (hence through the MS-8). When a bluetooth call comes through the defeat functionality already present in the stock system automatically pauses the music and fades the system all the way to the front playing only through the bluetooth speakers.


----------



## kaigoss69

trevordj said:


> No, no pausing required. Like many OEM systems, the Volvo stock system plays only through the front speakers when using bluetooth. Further, it defeats any fading with music playback (and pauses the music) if when the bluetooth system is activated. So, the MS-8 is hooked up to the rear speaker outputs of the stock amp and the bluetooth speakers are hooked up to the front speaker outputs. The stock HU is faded all the way to the rear. Music playback therefore only occurs through the rear speaker outputs (hence through the MS-8). When a bluetooth call comes through the defeat functionality already present in the stock system automatically pauses the music and fades the system all the way to the front playing only through the bluetooth speakers.


 Very cool, thanks!


----------



## utc_pyro

I’m having some problems with my MS-8 install. I used it to replace a 3sixty.2 in my system I could never get sounding “right” due to TA, midbass, and noise issues. On the MS-8 I ran through the OEM setup (using modified OEM head unit), set the crossovers and channels correctly, and did the calibration for the driver. Sweeps were done at -40 (really quiet) on the MS-8 and a second time at -25. Amps were pre-setup with ~3db of overlap from a 2.5vrms signal.

The first is tone. Treble is way down, bass is up too high. To get treble back to normal, I had to turn it up “+4” out of 6 on the head unit. On the bass, I had to turn it down “-2” out of 6 on the head unit, but I may know that cause of that one (OEM loudness + MS8 6db boost). The bass is noticeably coming from the rear of the car as well, even with the 80hz cross. On a positive note, the MS-8 did fix the midbass that I could never tune in with the 3sixty.2.

OEM setup was run at the max “40” setting on my head unit, and the output should be relatively flat there. I have a low quality line driver after the head unit right now that adds an upper-midrange hump, but I presume the MS-8 took care of that. This head unit DOES apply a loudness curve to the signal, as can be seen in my thread here: LegacyGT.com - Modifying OEM Head Unit for un eq'd Line Out. I tend to listen at lower levels between “10” and “20”, so there should be a boost in both treble (~6db) and bass (~12 db) in that region. Each notch on the tone adjustment is between 2 and 3db of boost/cut.

The second issue is that the imagine is skewed to the left. Voices sound as if they are coming from about 3” right of the driver’s side tweeter, and even with the treble turned up little high frequancy information is perceived from the right side. Setting the balance “2” notches to the right helps with the highs, but the TA seems to be steering voices to the right. 

Setup is as follows:
Fronts – Boston Pro60SE components, run active, tweeters in sails as suggested by Andy, mids in OEM locations.
Side (rear doors) – Cheap co axils
Sub – Image Dynamics IDQ D2 V2, .65cf enclosure with polyfill (QTC is around .6) in right corner of cargo area.
Power: KAC-X4R (fronts, 4x125w ,DSP cross set on tweeters at 3.15k as backup), XR-4S (rear+sub, 2x125w + 1x300w)
Car: Legacy GT Wagon

So, any ideas on what I messed up on?


----------



## BigRed

utc_pyro said:


> I’m having some problems with my MS-8 install. I used it to replace a 3sixty.2 in my system I could never get sounding “right” due to TA, midbass, and noise issues. On the MS-8 I ran through the OEM setup (using modified OEM head unit), set the crossovers and channels correctly, and did the calibration for the driver. Sweeps were done at -40 (really quiet) on the MS-8 and a second time at -25. Amps were pre-setup with ~3db of overlap from a 2.5vrms signal.
> 
> The first is tone. Treble is way down, bass is up too high. To get treble back to normal, I had to turn it up “+4” out of 6 on the head unit. On the bass, I had to turn it down “-2” out of 6 on the head unit, but I may know that cause of that one (OEM loudness + MS8 6db boost). The bass is noticeably coming from the rear of the car as well, even with the 80hz cross. On a positive note, the MS-8 did fix the midbass that I could never tune in with the 3sixty.2.
> 
> OEM setup was run at the max “40” setting on my head unit, and the output should be relatively flat there. I have a low quality line driver after the head unit right now that adds an upper-midrange hump, but I presume the MS-8 took care of that. This head unit DOES apply a loudness curve to the signal, as can be seen in my thread here: LegacyGT.com - Modifying OEM Head Unit for un eq'd Line Out. I tend to listen at lower levels between “10” and “20”, so there should be a boost in both treble (~6db) and bass (~12 db) in that region. Each notch on the tone adjustment is between 2 and 3db of boost/cut.
> 
> The second issue is that the imagine is skewed to the left. Voices sound as if they are coming from about 3” right of the driver’s side tweeter, and even with the treble turned up little high frequancy information is perceived from the right side. Setting the balance “2” notches to the right helps with the highs, but the TA seems to be steering voices to the right.
> 
> Setup is as follows:
> Fronts – Boston Pro60SE components, run active, tweeters in sails as suggested by Andy, mids in OEM locations.
> Side (rear doors) – Cheap co axils
> Sub – Image Dynamics IDQ D2 V2, .65cf enclosure with polyfill (QTC is around .6) in right corner of cargo area.
> Power: KAC-X4R (fronts, 4x125w ,DSP cross set on tweeters at 3.15k as backup), XR-4S (rear+sub, 2x125w + 1x300w)
> Car: Legacy GT Wagon
> 
> So, any ideas on what I messed up on?


did you run the cd for un-equalizing the stock signal?


----------



## billymonter

Would hooking up the center channel to the MS-8 AND the OEM front inputs work? I figure the MS-8 gets shut off for rears (in reality the fronts) and then the OEM amp sends the signal to the center. Is this Cuckoo thinking?
:surprised:


trevordj said:


> No, no pausing required. Like many OEM systems, the Volvo stock system plays only through the front speakers when using bluetooth. Further, it defeats any fading with music playback (and pauses the music) if when the bluetooth system is activated. So, the MS-8 is hooked up to the rear speaker outputs of the stock amp and the bluetooth speakers are hooked up to the front speaker outputs. The stock HU is faded all the way to the rear. Music playback therefore only occurs through the rear speaker outputs (hence through the MS-8). When a bluetooth call comes through the defeat functionality already present in the stock system automatically pauses the music and fades the system all the way to the front playing only through the bluetooth speakers.


----------



## trevordj

That could work, but it is beyond my expertise as to how (probably would require clever use of a relay). The problem would be the outputs of the MS-8 and the OEM amplifier would be hooked up to the same speaker. Under either circumstance (bluetooth use or MS-8 playing music) there would be a current traveling to the OUTPUT of the opposite amplifier (ie MS-8 playing music through center, current traveling to into the outputs of the OEM amplifier and vice versa). I don't know if there would be any ill effects but I would be nervous to try.


----------



## AdamS

utc_pyro said:


> I’m having some problems with my MS-8 install. I used it to replace a 3sixty.2 in my system I could never get sounding “right” due to TA, midbass, and noise issues. On the MS-8 I ran through the OEM setup (using modified OEM head unit), set the crossovers and channels correctly, and did the calibration for the driver. Sweeps were done at -40 (really quiet) on the MS-8 and a second time at -25. Amps were pre-setup with ~3db of overlap from a 2.5vrms signal.
> 
> The first is tone. Treble is way down, bass is up too high. To get treble back to normal, I had to turn it up “+4” out of 6 on the head unit. On the bass, I had to turn it down “-2” out of 6 on the head unit, but I may know that cause of that one (OEM loudness + MS8 6db boost). The bass is noticeably coming from the rear of the car as well, even with the 80hz cross. On a positive note, the MS-8 did fix the midbass that I could never tune in with the 3sixty.2.
> 
> OEM setup was run at the max “40” setting on my head unit, and the output should be relatively flat there. I have a low quality line driver after the head unit right now that adds an upper-midrange hump, but I presume the MS-8 took care of that. This head unit DOES apply a loudness curve to the signal, as can be seen in my thread here: LegacyGT.com - Modifying OEM Head Unit for un eq'd Line Out. I tend to listen at lower levels between “10” and “20”, so there should be a boost in both treble (~6db) and bass (~12 db) in that region. Each notch on the tone adjustment is between 2 and 3db of boost/cut.
> 
> The second issue is that the imagine is skewed to the left. Voices sound as if they are coming from about 3” right of the driver’s side tweeter, and even with the treble turned up little high frequancy information is perceived from the right side. Setting the balance “2” notches to the right helps with the highs, but the TA seems to be steering voices to the right.
> 
> Setup is as follows:
> Fronts – Boston Pro60SE components, run active, tweeters in sails as suggested by Andy, mids in OEM locations.
> Side (rear doors) – Cheap co axils
> Sub – Image Dynamics IDQ D2 V2, .65cf enclosure with polyfill (QTC is around .6) in right corner of cargo area.
> Power: KAC-X4R (fronts, 4x125w ,DSP cross set on tweeters at 3.15k as backup), XR-4S (rear+sub, 2x125w + 1x300w)
> Car: Legacy GT Wagon
> 
> So, any ideas on what I messed up on?


First, confirm it's an UnEQ issue by using an Ipod or similar device into MS8's Aux in with high quality music. Post your result.


----------



## Technic

kaigoss69 said:


> That's one hell of a workaround! So you pause the MS-8 during a call?
> 
> Technic is reporting no BT echo issues after bypassing the speaker-level outputs of the OEM amp and using a low-level balanced signal directly from the HU. This allows him to skip the de-eq procedure. Is this what adds the delay? So using the RCA inputs on the MS-8 means no BT echo problem?


I think that the BT echo has a signal level mismatch issue component on top of the DSP delays and noise cancelation algorithms causes, regardless of which MS-8 input is used (low or high level). 

My MS-8 is set to RCA inputs (balanced signal) and no input setup. I can reproduce the echo issue in my system by mismatching the MS-8 master volume with my PDX amps gains, i.e., lower the MS-8 master volume below -10dB and raise the PDX gains to nominal. 

Quite a nasty BT echo is produced.

So what I do is to calibrate the MS-8 with the PDX gains at nominal (2V) so when calibration is finished I set the PDX gains back to minimum (4V) and max out the MS-8 master volume (0dB). 

No BT echo, and great sound.

Something else that helps in my BMW is that the phone volume adjustment is independent from the music volume, so setting the phone volume at a certain level (still normally audible) also affects the echo -the higher the phone volume the more chances of echo.


----------



## quality_sound

Those are some fantastic tips and I will make use of them when I finally get off my ass and install my stuff. lol


----------



## utc_pyro

AdamS said:


> First, confirm it's an UnEQ issue by using an Ipod or similar device into MS8's Aux in with high quality music. Post your result.


Tested with Zune, was much better on the tone. Turning off the OEM integration, turning the head unit up, and the MS-8 down also helped a lot. I'll have to just disable to loudness compensation on the head unit for a permanent fix. (just involves removing four capacitors).

You've got a PM on the other oddities that aren't the fault of the MS-8.


----------



## Jayvuu

hey guys, not sure if it has been covered in this big thread, but i have a question about using my oem headunit and the ms8. my oem system is not amplified, so i guess i have to use the hi-level input. 
what i would like to know is, what is my best option? connecting the front and rear speaker output in the hi-level input of the ms8? or using a rca hi/low converter, and connecting into the RCA of the ms8. 
if it helps, my car is a 2003 honda accord.
thanks


----------



## Strmtrper6

Jayvuu said:


> hey guys, not sure if it has been covered in this big thread, but i have a question about using my oem headunit and the ms8. my oem system is not amplified, so i guess i have to use the hi-level input.
> what i would like to know is, what is my best option? connecting the front and rear speaker output in the hi-level input of the ms8? or using a rca hi/low converter, and connecting into the RCA of the ms8.
> if it helps, my car is a 2003 honda accord.
> thanks


I missed the hi/low converter part of your post and almost freaked out.:surprised:

Unless you already happen to own a real high end converter, I would assume you would be better off with the high-level inputs.


----------



## VP Electricity

Jayvuu said:


> hey guys, not sure if it has been covered in this big thread,


...because I haven't read any of it nor any information about the product.


----------



## Strmtrper6

VP Electricity said:


> ...because I haven't read any of it nor any information about the product.


Yeah, working my way through it. Maybe it would have been a good idea to split it to a new thread when it was released.
*shrugs*


----------



## VP Electricity

Ok, here's one for Andy:

2008 Mustang with Shaker 500 6-speaker system (JBL website info is incorrect due to inclusion of irrelevant trunk sub data for other systems). 

F/R 5x7 coaxes on deck power, 8" in the doors, amplified. The wiring diagram clearly shows that the door woofers are run in mono - a single deck output is paralleled to both L and R woofer amps. 

The RTA/line measurements show an odd response...

Amp output









Deck speaker level output









*- Will the MS-8 figure out that the bass is mono? *

*- Will it mix the HP and LP channels in such a way as to maximize separation above 100 Hz?* (Since the LP signal is so strong, I am wondering about reduction in separation - I think there's a case to be made with the graphs above for mixing these signals resulting in either increasing or decreasing the potential separation, depending on the algorithm). 

I'm not asking about separation audibility principles, I'm pretty clear about those (I figure you will mention them anyway and it's kind of a leading question) but I'm curious about the logic involved in the summing process. 

Thanks,

Ken


----------



## VP Electricity

Strmtrper6 said:


> Yeah, working my way through it. Maybe it would have been a good idea to split it to a new thread when it was released.
> *shrugs*


Yes, there's too much info out there to expect anyone to read it. Just ask your question and let other people read for you... you kids get off of my lawn!


----------



## benny z

you crack me up.


----------



## VP Electricity

benny z said:


> you crack me up.


What're you doing on the Internet? Go cut more metal out of your car.


----------



## Strmtrper6

VP Electricity said:


> Yes, there's too much info out there to expect anyone to read it. Just ask your question and let other people read for you... you kids get off of my lawn!


Hey now, I'm trying to be a good little boy and read it all. I didn't ask any questions...yet.


----------



## fish

I'm asking this question in a hurry before I go to work, so I apologize if it's already out there.

Is there any ill effects with mounting the MS-8 upside down if the internal amplifier WILL NOT be used?


----------



## 14642

VP Electricity said:


> Ok, here's one for Andy:
> 
> 2008 Mustang with Shaker 500 6-speaker system (JBL website info is incorrect due to inclusion of irrelevant trunk sub data for other systems).
> 
> F/R 5x7 coaxes on deck power, 8" in the doors, amplified. The wiring diagram clearly shows that the door woofers are run in mono - a single deck output is paralleled to both L and R woofer amps.
> 
> The RTA/line measurements show an odd response...
> 
> Amp output
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deck speaker level output
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *- Will the MS-8 figure out that the bass is mono? *
> 
> *- Will it mix the HP and LP channels in such a way as to maximize separation above 100 Hz?* (Since the LP signal is so strong, I am wondering about reduction in separation - I think there's a case to be made with the graphs above for mixing these signals resulting in either increasing or decreasing the potential separation, depending on the algorithm).
> 
> I'm not asking about separation audibility principles, I'm pretty clear about those (I figure you will mention them anyway and it's kind of a leading question) but I'm curious about the logic involved in the summing process.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ken


Yes, MS-8 is designed with this use case in mind. It'll work great. All mono channels connected to the input are low-passed, time corrected and added back into the signal. MS-8 can't turn mono bass into stereo bass, but the mono bass won't compromise the stereo separation of the high frequencies.


----------



## Duper

*MS-8 CD Read Error?!?*

I received a bad CD and it didn't have any sound files on it. Here's a thread where others are having the same problem:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...8-problem-no-audio-calibration-disc-help.html

Here's a link to the wav file:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11655918/MLS Setup Track Small.wav


----------



## kaigoss69

Technic said:


> I think that the BT echo has a signal level mismatch issue component on top of the DSP delays and noise cancelation algorithms causes, regardless of which MS-8 input is used (low or high level).
> 
> My MS-8 is set to RCA inputs (balanced signal) and no input setup. I can reproduce the echo issue in my system by mismatching the MS-8 master volume with my PDX amps gains, i.e., lower the MS-8 master volume below -10dB and raise the PDX gains to nominal.
> 
> Quite a nasty BT echo is produced.
> 
> So what I do is to calibrate the MS-8 with the PDX gains at nominal (2V) so when calibration is finished I set the PDX gains back to minimum (4V) and max out the MS-8 master volume (0dB).
> 
> No BT echo, and great sound.
> 
> Something else that helps in my BMW is that the phone volume adjustment is independent from the music volume, so setting the phone volume at a certain level (still normally audible) also affects the echo -the higher the phone volume the more chances of echo.


Hmm, good info. But with the MS-8 volume at 0db, how do you know you are not clipping any of the output signals? Correct me if I am wrong, but if the MS-8 has to boost any signal band (which in my mind is very likely), would you not be clipping the output at 0dB?

I will have to try this but not before I get mu HU recoded...the pops I get from the speaker level inputs would surely damage my speakers at 0dB.


----------



## michaelsil1

kaigoss69 said:


> Hmm, good info. But with the MS-8 volume at 0db, how do you know you are not clipping any of the output signals? Correct me if I am wrong, but if the MS-8 has to boost any signal band (which in my mind is very likely), would you not be clipping the output at 0dB?
> 
> I will have to try this but not before I get mu HU recoded...the pops I get from the speaker level inputs would surely damage my speakers at 0dB.


I thought the Manual said that the Maximum MS-8 Volume before clipping was -06db. :surprised:


----------



## quality_sound

I thought the MS-8 doesn't boost anything but instead cuts everything in relation to the band(s) that need to be "boosted."


----------



## t3sn4f2

kaigoss69 said:


> *Hmm, good info. But with the MS-8 volume at 0db, how do you know you are not clipping any of the output signals? Correct me if I am wrong, but if the MS-8 has to boost any signal band (which in my mind is very likely), would you not be clipping the output at 0dB?*
> 
> I will have to try this but not before I get mu HU recoded...the pops I get from the speaker level inputs would surely damage my speakers at 0dB.


iirc it should not happen with the auto cal, only when you boost tone and EQ _excessively_. I guess a sweep of each channel from one of the midrange amp channels would show any clipping. Gain turned down on the channel that is being used to test of course.


----------



## michaelsil1

quality_sound said:


> I thought the MS-8 doesn't boost anything but instead cuts everything in relation to the band(s) that need to be "boosted."


That's what I read.


----------



## Technic

kaigoss69 said:


> Hmm, good info. But with the MS-8 volume at 0db, how do you know you are not clipping any of the output signals? Correct me if I am wrong, but if the MS-8 has to boost any signal band (which in my mind is very likely), would you not be clipping the output at 0dB?
> 
> I will have to try this but not before I get mu HU recoded...the pops I get from the speaker level inputs would surely damage my speakers at 0dB.


The MS-8 at 0dB volume is because I use the OEM volume, so to clip I will have to really crank the OEM volume past the MS-8 output limit. And so far that limit seems to be very high. 

And based on what Andy stated several times here the MS-8 cuts before it boost.


----------



## Technic

michaelsil1 said:


> I thought the Manual said that the Maximum MS-8 Volume before clipping was -06db. :surprised:


The -6db is the setting when the OEM volume is to be retained, there's no mention of clipping at 0dB under normal conditions:



> IMPORTANT: If you decide not to install the MS-8’s display permanently, the Main Menu and all of the MS-8’s adjustments will not be available. In this case, set the MS-8’s System Volume to* –6dB *(see Volume Up and Volume Down buttons, on this page), and unplug the display unit. Be sure to store the display unit, cable and remote control in a safe place in case you may want to reconfigure the system or make other adjustments.


The 0dB setting could clip if you max out all the possible adjustments:



> IMPORTANT: The MS-8’s digital volume and equalization work differently than standard analog controls. *Boosting* the MS-8’s subwoofer-level control, bass-tone control and the low bass bands in the 31-band EQ to their *near-maximum*, and setting the MS-8’s System Volume control to *0dB*, will cause severe clipping (distorted sound) that may damage your system’s loudspeakers.


----------



## 106diablogti

Andy / Adam I have an issue with my set-up and wondered if I could run it past you.

I have a 2 way front end, 1 way centre and single sub.

The tweeters are in stock locations on the A pillar pointing slightly inwards. They have great off axis response.

The mid/mid bass are in the doors (6.5 inch).

4 inch mid and tweeter run off a passive crossover on the top of the dash.

My Centre image is veering off to the Left heavily with hardly anything from the right tweeter.

I've read through most of this thread and I've heard this could be caused by the Microphones being left plugged in. I have them unconnected but... I have a headphone extension lead connected to the MS8 to enable me to quickly connect and disconnect the Microphones from up front as the MS8 is hidden away behind the rear quarter panel. Would the MS8 detect this and think the microphones are still connected?

Secondly I have Logic 7 enabled, I read somewhere that this should be enabled with a centre channel, I recall seeing something that said side speakers should be used as well as ambient information is sent to them. 
Do you recommend I install something in the rear, will it make a massive difference to the sound?

Thanks

Rich


----------



## [email protected]

How would I go about installing a cd-changer and an ipod using an MS-8?

I just purchased one yesterday and I'm expecting to see it at my doorstep in about a week. I read through the manual and I understand that there is only one AUX input and I know I'd like to use that for my ipod. Would I be able to just connect the CD-Changer directly to my headunit or will I be missing out on the audio from the CD-Changer being processed? Sorry in advance if this question or something very similar to it has already been answered.


----------



## 106diablogti

Anyone?


----------



## hallsc

106diablogti said:


> Andy / Adam I have an issue with my set-up and wondered if I could run it past you.
> 
> *My Centre image is veering off to the Left heavily with hardly anything from the right tweeter.*
> 
> I've read through most of this thread and I've heard this could be caused by the Microphones being left plugged in. I have them unconnected but... I have a headphone extension lead connected to the MS8 to enable me to quickly connect and disconnect the Microphones from up front as the MS8 is hidden away behind the rear quarter panel. Would the MS8 detect this and think the microphones are still connected?
> 
> Secondly I have Logic 7 enabled, I read somewhere that this should be enabled with a centre channel, I recall seeing something that said side speakers should be used as well as ambient information is sent to them.
> *Do you recommend I install something in the rear, will it make a massive difference to the sound?*
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Rich


Rich,

*DISCLAIMER*: First off, my MS-8 is not installed, so *what I am putting up is only based off what I have read of other people's experience in the forum*. For the imaging being to the left, it has been recommended to sit slightly to the left of where you normally sit in the seat (few inches), and do the calibration as you did before. Got that from this thread:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...6-ms-8-tips-tricks-thread.html?highlight=ms-8

SOrry, I suck at inserting links. Other good tips on this thread as well though. 

For the microphone, I don't think having a remote extension should be a problem. I remember reading that others have done the same with no issues. But I can't be quoted on that, as I am not reading that right now, and again, *this is not from my personal experience*. 

I have also read that (this comes from Andy) that having rears is ideal when using the Logic7. I would search this thread again because I know it's specifically mentioned (I don't have time to go through it all bc I am on lunch break and YOU are the one who wants to know  ). I think it is even said that when using Logic7 the rears are more important than the center channel because all out-of-phase information is sent to the rears. So without rears you are losing all of that. Please go back through and check this last thing, I am about 95% sure on this, but if I am wrong I want to be corrected. One last time, *this is not from my personal experience*, I am only relaying what I have found myself from searching. I would get an extra two amp channels and run the rears though; you have the channels to do it. I will be running rears when I install mine, for what it's worth. Hope this helps.


----------



## TiFJer

I have what is probably a pretty elementary question but I'm in the middle of my first build so please be patient 

I'm using the MS-8 as a go-between for my FJ Cruisers FJammer and my aftermarket amps. In particular I'm wondering how to correctly wire my ARC600.1 to the MS-8. The amp is mono channel (duh) but has RCA inputs for L and R. My question is whether I should use two output channels on the MS-8 and both L and R inputs on the amp or only use one of each (output and input). Thanks!


----------



## 106diablogti

Cheers buddy, I've just disconnected the extension lead and it hasn't made a difference. But if Andy or Adam could clarify about the rears that would be great.

Cheers

Rich




hallsc said:


> Rich,
> 
> *DISCLAIMER*: First off, my MS-8 is not installed, so *what I am putting up is only based off what I have read of other people's experience in the forum*. For the imaging being to the left, it has been recommended to sit slightly to the left of where you normally sit in the seat (few inches), and do the calibration as you did before. Got that from this thread:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...6-ms-8-tips-tricks-thread.html?highlight=ms-8
> 
> SOrry, I suck at inserting links. Other good tips on this thread as well though.
> 
> For the microphone, I don't think having a remote extension should be a problem. I remember reading that others have done the same with no issues. But I can't be quoted on that, as I am not reading that right now, and again, *this is not from my personal experience*.
> 
> I have also read that (this comes from Andy) that having rears is ideal when using the Logic7. I would search this thread again because I know it's specifically mentioned (I don't have time to go through it all bc I am on lunch break and YOU are the one who wants to know  ). I think it is even said that when using Logic7 the rears are more important than the center channel because all out-of-phase information is sent to the rears. So without rears you are losing all of that. Please go back through and check this last thing, I am about 95% sure on this, but if I am wrong I want to be corrected. One last time, *this is not from my personal experience*, I am only relaying what I have found myself from searching. I would get an extra two amp channels and run the rears though; you have the channels to do it. I will be running rears when I install mine, for what it's worth. Hope this helps.


----------



## yuri

106diablogti said:


> Cheers buddy, I've just disconnected the extension lead and it hasn't made a difference. But if Andy or Adam could clarify about the rears that would be great.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rich


hi rich ,
have you tried re running setup with you head more to the left ? 
works for me .


----------



## hallsc

Rich,

The answer to your question about the rears is definitely in this thread. It's a long one, but reading it helps a lot. I read about 10-12 pages a night, and trust me, it helps. I will give you a little break - start around page 80, I am sure it's after that (possibly after 100, but I don't want to steer you wrong). If you don't have the patience to read page by page, you can ctrl + F and search for "rear" in each page, and if it doesn't show up on that page, go to the next one. You should find a definite answer in an hour to confirm or refute my statement about the rears. 

Stephen


----------



## 106diablogti

yuri said:


> hi rich ,
> have you tried re running setup with you head more to the left ?
> works for me .


Thanks yuri, I tried it last night and works a treat.


----------



## 106diablogti

Hi Stephen, I've searched through this thread and found the answer. Believe me I've read through this entire thread already.

I understand how to use computers / forums as I work in IT . I just wanted it from the horses mouth as it will require me to locate and build something to enclose my rear speakers. I'm not fortunate to have a stock location in my car.

I will have to mount them on a reinforced rear parcel shelf but obviously sharing the same air space as the sub which is a no no. So wanted to know before I took on a huge challenge lol. The centre channel was hard enough lol.

Cheers 



hallsc said:


> Rich,
> 
> The answer to your question about the rears is definitely in this thread. It's a long one, but reading it helps a lot. I read about 10-12 pages a night, and trust me, it helps. I will give you a little break - start around page 80, I am sure it's after that (possibly after 100, but I don't want to steer you wrong). If you don't have the patience to read page by page, you can ctrl + F and search for "rear" in each page, and if it doesn't show up on that page, go to the next one. You should find a definite answer in an hour to confirm or refute my statement about the rears.
> 
> Stephen


----------



## RattyMcClelland

How would the MS8 cope with tweeters and mids in the kciks andanother pair of tweeters in the pillars for upstage at 10k crossover.


Would it adjust the output of the upstage tweeters so they are lower in volume.

Anyone tried it?


----------



## SullyTT

RattyMcClelland said:


> How would the MS8 cope with tweeters and mids in the kciks andanother pair of tweeters in the pillars for upstage at 10k crossover.
> 
> 
> Would it adjust the output of the upstage tweeters so they are lower in volume.
> 
> Anyone tried it?


Can the MS8 "measure" stage height? If not then all it's going to do is center the image, and not adjust for height or depth.


----------



## RattyMcClelland

SullyTT said:


> Can the MS8 "measure" stage height? If not then all it's going to do is center the image, and not adjust for height or depth.


Yer thats what i though. I would set the xoverpoint for each speaker and then let the MS8 calibrate.

But would it have issues with 4 speakers ie the tweeters all playing 10k and up fro 2 different locations. And would it give me control to attenuate the a pillar tweeters so they are only adding ambiance.


----------



## yuri

RattyMcClelland said:


> Yer thats what i though. I would set the xoverpoint for each speaker and then let the MS8 calibrate.
> 
> But would it have issues with 4 speakers ie the tweeters all playing 10k and up fro 2 different locations. And would it give me control to attenuate the a pillar tweeters so they are only adding ambiance.


 i cant see how the ms-8 would work with 2 sets of tweeters installed different places ,, unless you ran it as a 3way front ,and the you would have to hp one set at the 10k you want and the second pair from 10k upwards ,, 

i think you would just have to try and see how it works out ,,,,,


----------



## [email protected]

[email protected] said:


> How would I go about installing a cd-changer and an ipod using an MS-8?
> 
> I just purchased one yesterday and I'm expecting to see it at my doorstep in about a week. I read through the manual and I understand that there is only one AUX input and I know I'd like to use that for my ipod. Would I be ab​le to just connect the CD-Changer directly to my headunit or will I be missing out on the audio from the CD-Changer being processed? Sorry in advance if this question or something very similar to it has already been answered.


Bump for an answer...

Any disadvantages to using the inputs through my headunit?


----------



## t3sn4f2

[email protected] said:


> Bump for an answer...
> 
> Any disadvantages to using the inputs through my headunit?


Are you controlling the cd changer with the headunit or is it a piece that works on its own with a controller and analog outputs?


----------



## [email protected]

It will be controlled directly through my headunit.


----------



## t3sn4f2

[email protected] said:


> It will be controlled directly through my headunit.


Then you really have no other choice but to send the audio from it through the head unit since the analog output from it goes out the plug that plugs into the head unit. Unless it has a dedicated RCA outputs as well?

The MS-8 will see the CD changers output the same way it sees any other source from the head unit, so it will do any of the processing needed in that particular setup.


----------



## [email protected]

Your last statement answers my question perfectly especially considering I don't plan on leaving the ms-8 monitor installed after setup. I rather not have to run either my ipod or cd changer directly through the ms-8 so that I would not have to be forced to retain the monitor in the vehicle at all times just to switch sources.

Thanks for your response.


----------



## TiFJer

TiFJer said:


> I have what is probably a pretty elementary question but I'm in the middle of my first build so please be patient
> 
> I'm using the MS-8 as a go-between for my FJ Cruisers FJammer and my aftermarket amps. In particular I'm wondering how to correctly wire my ARC600.1 to the MS-8. The amp is mono channel (duh) but has RCA inputs for L and R. My question is whether I should use two output channels on the MS-8 and both L and R inputs on the amp or only use one of each (output and input). Thanks!


Anybody?


----------



## t3sn4f2

[email protected] said:


> Your last statement answers my question perfectly especially considering I don't plan on leaving the ms-8 monitor installed after setup. I rather not have to run either my ipod or cd changer directly through the ms-8 so that I would not have to be forced to retain the monitor in the vehicle at all times just to switch sources.
> 
> Thanks for your response.


Yup, the MS-8 will then act as a seamless processor in between the head unit (with all it's sources) and the amps/speakers.


----------



## t3sn4f2

TiFJer said:


> Anybody?


Some amps need both left and right input channels fed in order to produce full power, some don't. If you don't know which type you have just split the output from the ms-8 sub out with a y splitter and feed both amp inputs OR set the ms-8 to "2" sub outputs and run both RCA from those two outputs into both amp inputs. Both outputs from the MS-8 are the same and processed as one, the ms-8 just provides and extra output for when needed.


----------



## TiFJer

Perfect! Thanks for the response!


----------



## Gary Mac

Andy (or anyone),

Is it possible for the Logic 7 to malfunction? Has anyone else experienced this.... I have had my MS8 installed for awhile, was one of the original pre-orders through JBL; today I started experiencing something weird, the speakers were cutting out (for lack of better term) and it sounded like the signals going to the speakers were choppy and disjointed. I had L7 on, and the processing was active. I turned L7 off and processing to defeat, and the signal sounded normal, I then kept L7 off and switched processing to active and it still sounded normal - all speakers were working fine. 

I then replayed the material with L7 on and the problems occured at the same exact points every time in different songs, so that tells me the program in the MS8 is malfunctioning....

Any help? Has this happend to anyone else? Suggestions?


----------



## 14642

Gary Mac said:


> Andy (or anyone),
> 
> Is it possible for the Logic 7 to malfunction? Has anyone else experienced this.... I have had my MS8 installed for awhile, was one of the original pre-orders through JBL; today I started experiencing something weird, the speakers were cutting out (for lack of better term) and it sounded like the signals going to the speakers were choppy and disjointed. I had L7 on, and the processing was active. I turned L7 off and processing to defeat, and the signal sounded normal, I then kept L7 off and switched processing to active and it still sounded normal - all speakers were working fine.
> 
> I then replayed the material with L7 on and the problems occured at the same exact points every time in different songs, so that tells me the program in the MS8 is malfunctioning....
> 
> Any help? Has this happend to anyone else? Suggestions?


Logic 7 steers out of phase informtion to the rear. For real recordings made in real spaces, this works great. For studio recordings made using all sorts of digital effects, all kinds of stuff can happen. The guy doing the mix may decide to put sounds out of phase to enhance the width, make things sound strange, you name it. For tracks converted to MP3 without using high bit rates or encoding in joint stereo, phase information isn't well preserved between left and right. That can cause some strange steering too. Logic 7 isn't malfunctioning, it's doing exactly what it was designed to do. On some recordings, you may not like what it does for the rear speakers. In those cases, turn it off. If you have a center channel, then fade more toward the front.


----------



## Gary Mac

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Logic 7 steers out of phase informtion to the rear. For real recordings made in real spaces, this works great. For studio recordings made using all sorts of digital effects, all kinds of stuff can happen. The guy doing the mix may decide to put sounds out of phase to enhance the width, make things sound strange, you name it. For tracks converted to MP3 without using high bit rates or encoding in joint stereo, phase information isn't well preserved between left and right. That can cause some strange steering too. Logic 7 isn't malfunctioning, it's doing exactly what it was designed to do. On some recordings, you may not like what it does for the rear speakers. In those cases, turn it off. If you have a center channel, then fade more toward the front.


Andy,

Thanks for responding, but this is different than what you are referring to. The strange "steering" is coming out of my tweeters and center, and it sounds like the majority of the issues are coming out of the tweeters, not only does some material cut in and out of the tweeters (kind of sounding like the rears if one was to sit in the back, facing the rear speakers), the loudness of certain sounds coming out of the tweeters and mids fluctuates in a way that does not sound normal. I am pretty sure there is a problem though because its happening on every CD, they are all original discs (not MP3) and I have listened to all of them tens of times and they have never sounded like this before in my car. Like I said, I have had this installed for about 3-4 months now and drive quite a bit.


----------



## Horsemanwill

Andy could you please go here

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...systems/88951-ms8-2006-cadallic-dts-bose.html


----------



## subwoofery

Gary Mac said:


> Andy,
> 
> Thanks for responding, but this is different than what you are referring to. The strange "steering" is coming out of my tweeters and center, and it sounds like the majority of the issues are coming out of the tweeters, not only does some material cut in and out of the tweeters (kind of sounding like the rears if one was to sit in the back, facing the rear speakers), the loudness of certain sounds coming out of the tweeters and mids fluctuates in a way that does not sound normal. I am pretty sure there is a problem though because its happening on every CD, they are all original discs (not MP3) and I have listened to all of them tens of times and they have never sounded like this before in my car. Like I said, I have had this installed for about 3-4 months now and drive quite a bit.


Just wondering if you have all your drivers in correct polarity (+ on +, - on -) and not have 1 mid in reverse polarity. That can create weird things when calibrating & after that for the listening session. 
Also check your speaker and RCA's connection, it happened to one guy on the forum that had his RCAs for the midbass inverted which resulted in a strange image. 

Kelvin


----------



## Gary Mac

subwoofery said:


> Just wondering if you have all your drivers in correct polarity (+ on +, - on -) and not have 1 mid in reverse polarity. That can create weird things when calibrating & after that for the listening session.
> Also check your speaker and RCA's connection, it happened to one guy on the forum that had his RCAs for the midbass inverted which resulted in a strange image.
> 
> Kelvin


yeah, everything is fine, although I did check today. It worked (sounded) good Monday, all I did was play with the graphic EQ a little. Today it started sounding like this. Did not touch a wire or anything. The only wire I touched over the last 3 months is the mic wire and the power wire for the display.


----------



## Ludemandan

I'm wondering (and I haven't read through all 168 pages of this thread, but you'll understand) - when you do an auto tune with the MS-8, does it then let you see what it has done to achieve the incredible tuning effect, and learn something new about audio and sound perception? Or is it just a black box mystery adjustment?


----------



## subwoofery

Grey box mystery adjustment... 

Kelvin


----------



## Ludemandan

subwoofery said:


> Grey box mystery adjustment...
> 
> Kelvin


Well effffffffffffff that. I'm putting an Audison Bit One on my wishlist.


----------



## quality_sound

Ludemandan said:


> Well effffffffffffff that. I'm putting an Audison Bit One on my wishlist.


What does it matter as long as it sounds good?


----------



## Ludemandan

quality_sound said:


> What does it matter as long as it sounds good?


It matters because audio is fun, and a hobby, and I enjoy learning and tweaking. If the processor does all the work for me and doesn't deepen my understanding of how sound quality works, it's not worth $800 to me. It's kind of like why I drive a manual instead of an automatic. I'd rather make all the decisions myself. 

Reading about the MS-8 and how it can raise and widen the soundstage past the speaker placement has, however, made me interested in buying a book on psychoacoustics.


----------



## benny z

psychoacoustics...

many here claim enough knowledge in that arena to write the book.


----------



## ramsa1

Any one running ms8 with front L+R, rear L+R and sub, no center channel? How does it sound? 
For a single seat setup, how does it sound compared to full logic7
Thinking about buying this processor to refine my 2-way front stage but contemplating the idea of running rear fill. Is it worth adding another amp to do rear fill?


----------



## nirschl

Andy,

I was wondering if there are any future plans of releasing the MS-8 in Japan. The drivers and amps seem to be pretty popular here. 

Cheers

Pete


----------



## BigRed

Andy, can you fix your email? it says that you are on vacation from sept. 20th to the 23rd


----------



## AAAAAAA

ramsa1 said:


> Any one running ms8 with front L+R, rear L+R and sub, no center channel? How does it sound?
> For a single seat setup, how does it sound compared to full logic7
> Thinking about buying this processor to refine my 2-way front stage but contemplating the idea of running rear fill. Is it worth adding another amp to do rear fill?


It's cool but I find the stage to be vague without the center channel.

Over all sound is better then anything I have had in the car but the stage isn't particularly good in my experience with just front and rear sides. (my comments reflect stock door mount locations, results should be better with better aiming\kickpods).


----------



## ramsa1

I will be using stock locations for the front stage also. Mids in the doors and tweets on the a pillars. No way am I going to hack up the dash for a center channel. I think I will try the rear fill. If it doesn't work out I will just use the extra power on the front stage.


----------



## 14642

AAAAAAA said:


> It's cool but I find the stage to be vague without the center channel.
> 
> Over all sound is better then anything I have had in the car but the stage isn't particularly good in my experience with just front and rear sides. (my comments reflect stock door mount locations, results should be better with better aiming\kickpods).


 
If you're running a 2-way in the front with passive crossovers, try covering the front tweeters during the first set of sweeps. That will cause MS-8 to tie align for the mids and should firm up your center image.


----------



## VP Electricity

I found that result when optimizing for both front seats with no center. Optimizing for driver only was much better. Didn't try the tweeter trick.


----------



## AAAAAAA

It's a 2 way active front with tweets in a pillars. rears is a comp set with passives.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Are you guys commenting on a 2 way with Logic7 on and no center? I though that was a no no. Or did everyone miss the original poster (ie ramsa1) asking how it compared to a full Logic7 setup? 



ramsa1 said:


> Any one running ms8 with front L+R, rear L+R and sub, *no center channel*? How does it sound?
> For a single seat setup, how does it sound *compared to full logic7*
> Thinking about buying this processor to refine my 2-way front stage but *contemplating the idea of running rear fill*. Is it worth adding another amp to do rear fill?


----------



## hallsc

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If you're running a 2-way in the front with passive crossovers, try covering the front tweeters during the first set of sweeps. That will cause MS-8 to tie align for the mids and should firm up your center image.


Andy,

Say we are going the route of 3-way front with rears, center, and sub, with a crossover between the mids and tweets. If we have the mid/tweet close to each other (less than 6 inches edge-to-edge), I am assuming covering/disconnecting the tweet is unnecessary?


----------



## xr4tic

t3sn4f2 said:


> Are you guys commenting on a 2 way with Logic7 on and no center? I though that was a no no. Or did everyone miss the original poster (ie ramsa1) asking how it compared to a full Logic7 setup?


I tried it both ways, but I liked it better with Logic7 turned off (2-way no center), I thought that was the consensus anyways.


----------



## mitchyz250f

Andy, if you have a center, is it better to have the side tweeters on axis with the person on that side, for example, passenger tweeter on axis with passenger?


----------



## 14642

hallsc said:


> Andy,
> 
> Say we are going the route of 3-way front with rears, center, and sub, with a crossover between the mids and tweets. If we have the mid/tweet close to each other (less than 6 inches edge-to-edge), I am assuming covering/disconnecting the tweet is unnecessary?


 
Right. This tweeter trick often helps with a 6" in the bottom of the doors and the tweeter in the sail panel.


----------



## 14642

xr4tic said:


> I tried it both ways, but I liked it better with Logic7 turned off (2-way no center), I thought that was the consensus anyways.


If you don't have rears or a center, don't use L7. If you have rears and no center, try L7. If you have a center and no rears, add rears and use L7.


----------



## AAAAAAA

Rears are definitely worth the little investment it takes. It adds "space" and adds enjoyment to the listening experience hehe.

But also the center since it locks it "focuses" the stage.


----------



## ramsa1

Thanks guys. Will try rears without center for the while until I work up the courage to implement a center.


----------



## RattyMcClelland

ramsa1 said:


> Thanks guys. Will try rears without center for the while until I work up the courage to implement a center.


What about rears and no centre with Logic7 turned Off. Can the MS8 do any other types of rear fill like the halfer effect to compliment the front stage.


----------



## t3sn4f2

RattyMcClelland said:


> What about rears and no centre with Logic7 turned Off. Can the MS8 do any other types of rear fill like the halfer effect to compliment the front stage.


Good question.


----------



## RattyMcClelland

Sorry got another question.

Iv just been into my car and removed the centre dash trim.

(For a Logic7 setup)

Now for a centre speaker i cannot fit anything like a 5-6" speaker without loosing my centre airvents and stock OEM look.

BUT i can fit 2 HAT L3SEs side by side just with some modification. Now would these be suffice as a centre channel if they both got 100w (part class A) both playing centre frequencies from say 100-150hz all the way up to natural roll off at around 17k+hz. It means i wont be able to play 100hz down???

AND
For rear speakers. I though about using my L6 in the rear c pillars but the speakers are too deep but i can again use L3SE and play then from 100hz up to 17k.
OR
I can use the rear parcel shelf 6x9s and use the up comming 6x9 hat imagines BUT im also using an IB sub in my boot and would share the same airspace. The rears would be getting around 50wx2 (part class a).


----------



## n_olympios

The L3SE's are probably the best option for both center and rears. However, you're probably installing the center ones flat on the dash, or at most with a small angle to the passengers, so they'll be more than 60 degrees off-axis. We've yet to see their graphs, but I guess that they'll struggle a bit with 17k (off-axis). Same as 100Hz, it seems a bit optimistic. Other than that, they'll probably be fine.


----------



## t3sn4f2

I wouldn't run two 3's side by side that high. They are going to suffer from comb filtering anywhere in the range of a tweeter. Think of it as an oval 6" driver mounted horizontally along the long axis. You are looking at the high frequency roll off off axis of a 6" driver.

I would run them in a 1.5 way configuration where one driver only plays up to the point where it won't introduce comb yet it will augment output.


----------



## RattyMcClelland

My Preludes dash its sloped towards the passengers and the speakers would be firing at the rear view mirror or map lights.










You can see the panle just above the centre air vents. So it be more like 30 degrees off axis + reflections.


----------



## RattyMcClelland

t3sn4f2 said:


> I wouldn't run two 3's side by side that high. They are going to suffer from comb filtering anywhere in the range of a tweeter. Think of it as an oval 6" driver mounted horizontally along the long axis. You are looking at the high frequency roll off off axis of a 6" driver.
> 
> I would run them in a 1.5 way configuration where one driver only plays up to the point where it won't introduce comb yet it will augment output.


So instead of wasting 2 MS8 channels on the centre to use crossovers individually on both speakers i can instead add a small capacitor to cut 1 speaker at 2000hz @ 6db/oct and leave the other playing full range whilst both speakers run off 1 channel on the MS8 but 2 channels on an amp.


----------



## t3sn4f2

RattyMcClelland said:


> My Preludes dash its sloped towards the passengers and the speakers would be firing at the rear view mirror or map lights.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see the panle just above the centre air vents. So it be more like 30 degrees off axis + reflections.


Hmm reflections directly of an angled windshield where the driver is mount flat and so off axis is not so bad because there is not so much off axis energy versus the reflection and also the path length difference between the off axis and the reflection is not so great. But slightly off axis plus reflections of the top of the windshield is a different story. 

If I have that space to work with I would use a high quality 4" coax angle down toward the cabin as much as possible. Or two 3" as close as possible with a high quality low playing tweeter like a scan illuminator mounted RIGHT over and in between the two 3". Even if it meant a light bumped looking center module. 

You might be able to get away with a flat horizontal MTM mount configuration (think a tiny home center channel), where the drivers won't stick UP as much. But for that you would have to mount all three driver as close together as you could. The important factor being the two mid being as close together as possible. You would want to get a tweeter that could be crossed over low enough so that the mids would not need to be crossed as high and would not introduce comb filtering. It would also keep lobing down from the tweeter to the mids. Do the math on that to see what is needed EXACTLY.


----------



## t3sn4f2

RattyMcClelland said:


> So instead of wasting 2 MS8 channels on the centre to use crossovers individually on both speakers i can instead add a small capacitor to cut 1 speaker at 2000hz @ 6db/oct and leave the other playing full range whilst both speakers run off 1 channel on the MS8 but 2 channels on an amp.


That the idea, but not a cap though, that is a highpass filter. You need an inductor to remove the highs or IOW act as a lowpass filter for one driver. I can't say exactly how to do it though, I don't know enough about passives.

You also need to look at how that passive network affect the phase between the two 3" at the frequencies that matter, factor in how low you then have to crossover that mid so that there is not any out of phase frequency integration higher up.


----------



## mitchyz250f

My over-simplified understanding is that a first order crossover does not result in a phase shift.


----------



## RattyMcClelland

I thought about using a tweeter also. But a tweeter that can be crossed over low? Hummmmmmmmmmm  HAT of course.

So having 2 3.5" L3s and a tweeter like an L1v2 of the older L1v1.
Now i just need to figure out how to connect all 3 speakers to 2 channels playing a mono signal from the Ms8. Both L3s off 1 channel playing to 2k. And the tweeter off the other channel, tweeter can have the high pass filter capacitor. So its just the L3 low pass i need. My amp has no crossovers onboard.
But i feel this is making things complicated. 

But yes i was under the assumption a 1st order filter doesnt 180degree the phase.


----------



## 14642

All high and low pass filters shift phase--45 degrees per order, either leading or lagging. Two 1st order filters (high and low pass) combine for a 90 degree shift between the drivers, for example. This isn't so important in practice, because we don't hear the electrical sum of the filters, we hear the acoustic sum through the speakers. 

Ratty,
Don't make this more complicated than it needs to be. If you can spare two channels for the center, use one to drive the two 3" speakers and the other for the tweeter. Put the tweeter in between the 3" speakers.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> All high and low pass filters shift phase--45 degrees per order, either leading or lagging. Two 1st order filters (high and low pass) combine for a 90 degree shift between the drivers, for example. This isn't so important in practice, because we don't hear the electrical sum of the filters, we hear the acoustic sum through the speakers.
> 
> *Ratty,
> Don't make this more complicated than it needs to be. If you can spare two channels for the center, use one to drive the two 3" speakers and the other for the tweeter. Put the tweeter in between the 3" speakers.*


So IOW, a 3"/compact tweeter horizontal MTM from the typical off axis view point of a car seat won't have any audible problems with lobing (assuming the tweeter can be crossed somewhere around 3kHz and the drivers are mounted as close to each other as possible)?


----------



## 14642

The horizontal dispersion will be narrow but the vertical dispersion will be wide. Reflections from the dashboard will contrbute more to mucking up the response than lobing, but there's no way around that. Is it optimum? Probably not, but it'll be better than ANY alternative using those drivers. Using one will reduce the potential bass output, which is much more important than any of the other considerations. The tweeter is also important. 

Just stick the drivers in there, make sure the baffle is well sealed to prevent bass cancellation and let the EQ do the rest. There's only so much you can do with speaker placement, considering that the whole dashboard is the baffle. It's a car. Everything is a trade-off. Bandwidth from the center is the most important consideration. Second is placement in the dashboard. Of course, all of those take a back seat to cosmetic integration, in this case.


----------



## RattyMcClelland

Ok so the centre channel no going below 150hz isnt a problem?

I will only have 1 channel off the MS8 for the centre. 2-way active + sub + 2 rears and a centre. All 8 channels used up.

I can use the Legatia L2x crossover network for the centre. Id suspect the crossover would be around 5.5k for the mid low pass and 5k for the tweeter high pass.


----------



## NSTar

What would be nice is for use to download the setting and tweak it then upload it back...that way, we can save out favorite..test it and see the difference in settings and make educated changes.

Also, independent controls from internal amps... I'd like to use the internal amps for tweets and center channels but also allow controls of other channels through dedicated amps. I guess it would be more than 7.1


----------



## Duper

*MS-8 makes my system sound hollow.*

To Andy, or anyone with some tips: 
I just recently had the MS-8 professionally installed in a 2011 Camaro with the Boston Acoustics system and I added an Alpine M6 amp + JL 10w6v2 sub to it. While it has definitely improved the sound from the stock setup, it sounds pretty hollow for most of the music I play (some sounds really clear but other music is 'uncomfortable'). The MS-8 also gets pretty warm after listening to it for a little while. I'm wondering if I just need to bite the bullet and upgrade with new speakers & amp like my installer suggests or if something might be configured wrong. 

*Here's what I've tried so far:*
I've run the sweeps at different volumes, turned logic 7, & processing on/off, and tried running it without the center speaker. I also tried getting the crossover point of the center as low as I could but the lowest I could go without it sounding like garbage is 2500Hz. 

Configuration (pretty much straight stock / recommended config):

1 Sub: subsonic filter 20Hz, subsonic slope: 12dB, Xover: 80Hz, Sub/Front slope: 24dB
2-way Fronts (1" tweeter + 6.5" mid): Front Lo/Hi Xover: 3500Hz, Front Lo/Hi Slope: 24dB
1-way Sides: Side Hi Pass: 100Hz, Hi Pass Slope: 24dB
1-way 3.5" Center: Center Hi Pass: 2500Hz, Hi Pass Slope: 24dB

Although I had it professionally installed at a highly recommended dealer, they weren't familiar with it so it took them a while. It's pretty idiot proof though - high level inputs in, output to the speakers, but I'm thinking they might have plugged in more than only the left and right high level inputs. Could that cause it to sound hollow if they did?

If not, any suggestions on what I could do? Thanks in advance...


----------



## BigRed

the center at 2500 is definately not going to sound as optimal as a much lower crossover point. i would start there.


----------



## Duper

BigRed said:


> the center at 2500 is definately not going to sound as optimal as a much lower crossover point. i would start there.


Yeah, I tried lowering it, but it sounded worse. So, start with a new 3.5" speaker? 

I've been looking at the following online... not sure if these are also garbage or not but I didn't want to spend hundreds on a 3.5" speaker either:

Boston Acoustics
Infinity Reference
Infinity 329CF
Rockford Fosgate

Any recommendations are appreciated. Thanks again.


----------



## subwoofery

Based on the examples you provided, I would get either of the 2 followings: 
https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=45_241_282&products_id=8816 
https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=45_241_282&products_id=1616 
You should be able to cross them around 150-250Hz depending on how loud you like to play. 

However, if you have the money, you can get this monster: 
Audience A3 3" Full Range Driver | Parts-Express.com 

Advantage of buying from PEx or Madi is that you can get 1 speaker (since it's a center channel). For the price of 2 car audio drivers+crossover, you get 1 REAL driver. 

Hope that helps, 
Kelvin


----------



## quality_sound

Yep, with a 2500Hz xo point on the center it's going to sound hollow since the center is doing most of the work. You're going to have a fairly large gap between the midbasses and the center. Just for ****s and giggles, try rerunning setup and exclude the center. I bet it clears up.


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: MS-8 makes my system sound hollow.*



Duper said:


> To Andy, or anyone with some tips:
> I just recently had the MS-8 professionally installed in a 2011 Camaro with the Boston Acoustics system and I added an Alpine M6 amp + JL 10w6v2 sub to it. While it has definitely improved the sound from the stock setup, it sounds pretty hollow for most of the music I play (some sounds really clear but other music is 'uncomfortable'). The MS-8 also gets pretty warm after listening to it for a little while. I'm wondering if I just need to bite the bullet and upgrade with new speakers & amp like my installer suggests or if something might be configured wrong.
> 
> *Here's what I've tried so far:*
> I've run the sweeps at different volumes, turned logic 7, & processing on/off, *and tried running it without the center speaker.* I also tried getting the crossover point of the center as low as I could but the lowest I could go without it sounding like garbage is 2500Hz.
> 
> Configuration (pretty much straight stock / recommended config):
> 
> 1 Sub: subsonic filter 20Hz, subsonic slope: 12dB, Xover: 80Hz, Sub/Front slope: 24dB
> 2-way Fronts (1" tweeter + 6.5" mid): Front Lo/Hi Xover: 3500Hz, Front Lo/Hi Slope: 24dB
> 1-way Sides: Side Hi Pass: 100Hz, Hi Pass Slope: 24dB
> 1-way 3.5" Center: Center Hi Pass: 2500Hz, Hi Pass Slope: 24dB
> 
> Although I had it professionally installed at a highly recommended dealer, they weren't familiar with it so it took them a while. It's pretty idiot proof though - high level inputs in, output to the speakers, but I'm thinking they might have plugged in more than only the left and right high level inputs. Could that cause it to sound hollow if they did?
> 
> If not, any suggestions on what I could do? Thanks in advance...


If it still sounded bad _in the same way _without the center channel output active, then it can't be the center speaker quality.

Unless, if by "tried running it without a center speaker" you ment you disconnected it physically and wtill used the calibration session from when it was connected. While Logic7 was on as well.


----------



## kaigoss69

If it were me, I would re-run set-up and make sure all processing of the HU is OFF. I would connect only the front HU outputs to the MS-8 input, assuming they are full range. I would connect an iPod to the aux in on the MS-8 and see if it sounded any different. I would then check all the speaker out connections for polarity. I would also make sure the center channel had a tweeter.


----------



## Duper

*Re: MS-8 makes my system sound hollow.*



t3sn4f2 said:


> If it still sounded bad _in the same way _without the center channel output active, then it can't be the center speaker quality.
> 
> Unless, if by "tried running it without a center speaker" you ment you disconnected it physically and wtill used the calibration session from when it was connected. While Logic7 was on as well.


I re-ran the calibration and told the MS-8 there was no center channel. I left it physically plugged in, but said 'none' when it asked for the center channel.

Without the center configured, the best way I can describe remembering what it sounding like is muffled or maybe flat is a better way to put it... Still not great, just in a different way.


----------



## Grendel

Is there anyway to get the MS-8 to go active on 5 sets of components, 2 mid bass and 1 sub? (13 speakers?). 

If not, is there a frequency or speaker set I could eliminate from the MS-8's control and not affect SQ?

I hate the idea of going through all this effort and having 5 sets of passive speakers.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Grendel said:


> Is there anyway to get the MS-8 to go active on 5 sets of components, 2 mid bass and 1 sub? (13 speakers?).
> 
> If not, is there a frequency or speaker set I could eliminate from the MS-8's control and not affect SQ?
> 
> I hate the idea of going through all this effort and having 5 sets of passive speakers.


If you don't want to wait hoping for an answer, then the answer is in the thread many times over.


----------



## Grendel

t3sn4f2 said:


> If you don't want to wait hoping for an answer, then the answer is in the thread many times over.


I've read the entire thread. I didn't see where anyone was willing to drop out a sub or mid bass from the MS8 control, or it's effects.

I did see where Andy said that comps are close enough in range to accept a single channel of MS8 control. I've also seen where he suggested blocking a tweet in a passive config to get the MS8 to focus on the mid range. 

Considering the speakers I am using, with the power I plan to put to them, it seems a waste to use passive when I have all the control in the world with the MS8.

When do we see the MS13, considering the suggested configurations in use in this thread?


----------



## TREETOP

Grendel said:


> When do we see the MS13, considering the suggested configurations in use in this thread?


Um, MS13 (Mara Salvatrucha) is a street gang based in LA, hopefully nobody names a processor after them.


----------



## DAT

TREETOP said:


> Um, MS13 (Mara Salvatrucha) is a street gang based in LA, hopefully nobody names a processor after them.


YouTube - MS Mara Salvatrucha MS


----------



## BigRed

RattyMcClelland said:


> Ok so the centre channel no going below 150hz isnt a problem?
> 
> I will only have 1 channel off the MS8 for the centre. 2-way active + sub + 2 rears and a centre. All 8 channels used up.
> 
> I can use the Legatia L2x crossover network for the centre. Id suspect the crossover would be around 5.5k for the mid low pass and 5k for the tweeter high pass.


The L2x will work fine Ratty, I've tried it that way


----------



## Grendel

TREETOP said:


> Um, MS13 (Mara Salvatrucha) is a street gang based in LA, hopefully nobody names a processor after them.


Although aware of MS13, I doubt it has an relevance here. Seriously. I wouldn't give them that much power. 8 channels, vs 13 channels. Thus MS13.


----------



## RattyMcClelland

BigRed said:


> The L2x will work fine Ratty, I've tried it that way


How would they cope with 2 L3SE orL4SE connected in parallel so show a 2ohm load off the midrange output. My amp will handle 2ohms fine.

Its either that or a Imagine 6x9 which "may" fit with effort. But 2 L3s + tweeter or 2 L4s + tweeter can fit with tweeter firing directly into the car and not at the windshield.


----------



## subwoofery

Grendel said:


> I've read the entire thread. I didn't see where anyone was willing to drop out a sub or mid bass from the MS8 control, or it's effects.
> 
> I did see where Andy said that comps are close enough in range to accept a single channel of MS8 control. I've also seen where he suggested blocking a tweet in a passive config to get the MS8 to focus on the mid range.
> 
> Considering the speakers I am using, with the power I plan to put to them, it seems a waste to use passive when I have all the control in the world with the MS8.
> 
> When do we see the MS13, considering the suggested configurations in use in this thread?


You have 3 options: 
#1. Just use the passive, it'll work fine. 

#2. You would need to use amplifiers that have great crossover like Zed Leviathan, JL Slash, Soundstream Ref, New JBL MS amps, and such 

#3. Buy another MS-8, first one will have 2 outputs for the second MS-8 // 4 outputs for the rears // 1 for center channel // 1 for sub 
Second one will be using 6 channel for a 3 way up front 

Kelvin 

PS: don't even think about starting on #3. it will work even with the 8ms delay. I've asked already.


----------



## NSTar

subwoofery said:


> You have 3 options:
> 
> #3. Buy another MS-8, first one will have 2 outputs for the second MS-8 // 4 outputs for the rears // 1 for center channel // 1 for sub
> Second one will be using 6 channel for a 3 way up front
> 
> Kelvin
> 
> PS: don't even think about starting on #3. it will work even with the 8ms delay. I've asked already.


How's the DSP going to handle channel separation? It doesn't know that the other ms-8 exist. I won't do logic7 .. it'll be just like having many speakers with possibility of the time alignment. 

Just use crossover and have the components as close to each other as possible... also set the channel to fullrange and let the crossover deal with it.

edit: I guess it's possible, just use all 8 output on each MS8  but not sure how the dsp processes those 3 ways differently as if they were in different location.


----------



## subwoofery

Outputs going to the second MS-8 are just going to be labelled _"front left"_ and _"front right"_ 

The second MS-8 will act as if it was a passive crossover attached to your speakers (except it'll add 8ms delay and you can set your crossover points) 

Kelvin


----------



## t3sn4f2

NSTar said:


> How's the DSP going to handle channel separation? It doesn't know that the other ms-8 exist. I won't do logic7 .. it'll be just like having many speakers with possibility of the time alignment.
> 
> Just use crossover and have the components as close to each other as possible... also set the channel to fullrange and let the crossover deal with it.
> 
> edit: I guess it's possible, just use all 8 output on each MS8


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1104606-post21.html


----------



## Niebur3

Andy (or anyone else who may know), 

I have a very long question I am hoping you can help with. I am preparing to do a new MS-8 based system. Factory stealth is VERY important for me. The car is a 2004 Acura TL and I will be using the stock HU. I have read and talked to several people and my plan is to put 6.5 midbass in the doors and tweeters in the factory locations in the dash aimed up at the windshield. I will be able to use a 4" midrange and tweeter for the center channel (aimed at the windshield also). I will run rear fill (6.5" and tweeter) off a passive crossover. I have not purchased amps yet, so I will make sure I have enough channels to make everything work. 

After reading and talking to some, I am realizing that a 2-way with center and rears have caused imaging problems for some when the center speakers is sized different from the midrange/midbass speaker. Will this setup work or should I add a pair of 4" midrange (matching the center channel) to the front so I have a 3-way setup and if so, the door card would not be an option for me to mount the midrange so would the midrange work better in the kick or a-pillar? If kick is the best spot, will it be okay located that far away from the tweeter with passives on the tweeter and no time alignment. I do plan on crossing over the tweeter around 4-5k which should help with no time alignment.

Thanks for all the help!


----------



## quality_sound

I can't say about the center, Jerry, but you'll want the 4s on the dash.


----------



## NSTar

You definitely want the best for the center. a dinky 2.5" won't do it. The only problem with the center is finding the space for speakers. I'd put a 6.5" and a tweet up in there.

Only the best for the center...now, where to buy single speakers LOL!

btw, the center of the car, the part where the driveline runs (rear drive cars), would that be a good place to put some 3 way (passively crossed) there?


----------



## subwoofery

Niebur3 said:


> Andy (or anyone else who may know),
> 
> I have a very long question I am hoping you can help with. I am preparing to do a new MS-8 based system. Factory stealth is VERY important for me. The car is a 2004 Acura TL and I will be using the stock HU. I have read and talked to several people and my plan is to put 6.5 midbass in the doors and tweeters in the factory locations in the dash aimed up at the windshield. I will be able to use a 4" midrange and tweeter for the center channel (aimed at the windshield also). I will run rear fill (6.5" and tweeter) off a passive crossover. I have not purchased amps yet, so I will make sure I have enough channels to make everything work.
> 
> After reading and talking to some, I am realizing that a 2-way with center and rears have caused imaging problems for some when the center speakers is sized different from the midrange/midbass speaker. Will this setup work or should I add a pair of 4" midrange (matching the center channel) to the front so I have a 3-way setup and if so, the door card would not be an option for me to mount the midrange so would the midrange work better in the kick or a-pillar? If kick is the best spot, will it be okay located that far away from the tweeter with passives on the tweeter and no time alignment. I do plan on crossing over the tweeter around 4-5k which should help with no time alignment.
> 
> Thanks for all the help!


Answered in this post: (Last sentence) 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1002963-post2151.html 

Seems like you need to do kicks if you are going with a smaller center channel. 

Or 

As posted above, just do an MTM center type. 

Kelvin


----------



## NSTar

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> OK, now that my butt has recovered from 15 hours in the same chair yesterday, here goes.
> 
> Every few milliseconds, Logic 7 computes a steering angle by determining a couple of things about the stereo signal. Left, right and center steering is determined by level differences between left and right signals. Mono information--the information that's common to left and right--is steered to the center. Don't confuse mono as L+R for what's actually going on here. Although this isn't how it's done, you could think of the mono info as (L+R)-lL-Rl. It's all of the sound minus the sound that appears only in the left or the right. That mono information is also attenuated in the left and the right. The amount of that information that appears in left and right is an important part of making this thing sound great in cars. If the information is completely removed from left and right, then I don't think it works very well in cars. The images are spot on, but they're really small and don't sound believable, to me. If the mono information isn't attenuated at all, then the stage is narrowed a bit and the images are big and kind of nebulous. Left of center and right of center aren't very accurate. Attenuating the mono signal in left and right by 6dB works great and that's what MS-8's L7 does.
> 
> The front-to-rear steering angle is computed by determining the phase relationship between left and right. -180 degrees steers to the rear. -90 degrees steers about halfway between front and rear. The level differences between left and right determine rear left and right steering.
> 
> Finally, when information is steered front, one of the rear and side channels is polarity-swapped. This helps to anchor front steered sounds in the front, and that's why sides and rears shouldn't make a bunch of midbass. That out-of-phase condition in the back works for imaging, but not for midbass. Fortunately, we all want the midbass to sound like it comes from the front, so it's just easier to make sure that it does.
> 
> Side and rear are also delayed by several milliseconds, but rear is delayed more.
> 
> Very low frequencies are not steered. They're simple stereo.
> 
> Here's a set of drawings that sort of illustrates this. The first one illustrates what you can expect from a L+R center.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here's a simplification of what happens with L7:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, when you implement this in a car, here are some pointers:
> 
> 1. Sides and rears don't have to make bass. I use a 3" and a tweeter in the back and a 6" component system in the sides, but they're crossed over at 100Hz, 4th order. The 6" speakers in the sides are overkill, but that's what fit in the doors.
> 
> 2. It's helpful if the side and rear tweeters are at about ear level. Don't mount them in the bottom of the doors.
> 
> 3. If you won't put 4 speakers in the back and you'll use only 2 instead, MS-8 will process them as sides. That's no problem and the difference between 5.1 and 7.1 is really hard to hear. It's nice to have rears and sides if you'll have rear seat passengers. Logic 7 in OE systems mixes some front-steered information into the sides, so the rear seat passengers have their own stage at the back of the front seats. Making those adjustments is car and speaker-location dependent and it's seriously difficult to do without screwing everything else up. MS-8 will provide a single stage, located at or in front of the dashboard for all seating positions. I prefer that and it happens automatically and easily when the front seats are right.
> 
> 4. Front steering works perfectly for all frequencies that the center channel will play and pathlengths don't matter much. For midbass frequencies that the left and right will play but the center channel won't, pathlengths are critical. A phantom center has to be generated for those sounds. If your center channel is a 3" and you have big-ass 8" speakers for right and left mounted in your doors, there's gonna be trouble.
> 
> 5. The subwoofer level control in MS-8 isn't a level control for the subwoofer output channels. It's a shelving filter that boosts bass in ALL channels below 60Hz, but never above 160 Hz. When you boost or cut, the slope of the filter is adjusted. This helps to maintain the illusion of bass up front by sending the appropriate amount of midbass to the front speakers and bass to the subwoofers. It also maintains the crossover point. Here are a couple of graphs that illustrate this and why it's better.
> 
> The first one is a conventional control. It's pretty obvious why this moves the image of the bass to the back and sounds boomy. There's too much interaction between sub and midbass. This is why people claim that "underlapping" the bass is important and why so many people try to get big-assed midbass drivers in the front of the car and cross the sub at 50Hz. With MS-8, that's totally unnecessary, and the evidence of that is in the second graph.
> 
> I use a pair of 6" speakers driven by about 40 watts in the doors, another one in the center channel and a 500 watt amp on a pair of cheesy 10" woofers in an IB in the rear deck. The bass is seriously anchored to the front and the midbass is great. No hassles, no constant tweaking and I can boost bass by as much as 10dB on top of the target curve (which is a total of about 20dB) without the image shifting to the rear. I think my crossover point is about 80Hz, 4th order.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, this feature is also included in the MS-Amps using a wireless rotary control that can be paired to any number of bass and full range amps in the system.
> 
> So, for front right left and center, you'd be better off with three 5" speakers (R,L, and C) than with 8s in the doors and a 3 in the center. If all you can get in the center is a 3", then try to move the midbass to the kick panels. If you can't do either, the car will still sound great, but the image for center-steered midbass sounds will be larger than it should be and will be biased a little bit to the side on which you sit. Not such a big deal.



hmmm...wow, it's gonna be hard for me to give up the 8" Rear Sides... only way to find out is to try it. But I'm loving the way it sounds right now with 8" rear sides.


----------



## subwoofery

NSTar said:


> hmmm...wow, it's gonna be hard for me to give up the 8" Rear Sides... only way to find out is to try it. But I'm loving the way it sounds right now with 8" rear sides.


Since you have your 8" in there, there's no need to change your setup. 
Do you have your rears at ear level? 

Kelvin


----------



## Niebur3

Niebur3 said:


> Andy (or anyone else who may know),
> 
> I have a very long question I am hoping you can help with. I am preparing to do a new MS-8 based system. Factory stealth is VERY important for me. The car is a 2004 Acura TL and I will be using the stock HU. I have read and talked to several people and my plan is to put 6.5 midbass in the doors and tweeters in the factory locations in the dash aimed up at the windshield. I will be able to use a 4" midrange and tweeter for the center channel (aimed at the windshield also). I will run rear fill (6.5" and tweeter) off a passive crossover. I have not purchased amps yet, so I will make sure I have enough channels to make everything work.
> 
> After reading and talking to some, I am realizing that a 2-way with center and rears have caused imaging problems for some when the center speakers is sized different from the midrange/midbass speaker. Will this setup work or should I add a pair of 4" midrange (matching the center channel) to the front so I have a 3-way setup and if so, the door card would not be an option for me to mount the midrange so would the midrange work better in the kick or a-pillar? If kick is the best spot, will it be okay located that far away from the tweeter with passives on the tweeter and no time alignment. I do plan on crossing over the tweeter around 4-5k which should help with no time alignment.
> 
> Thanks for all the help!


Anyone else? I have one person saying 3-way with mid in the pillars and 1 saying 3-way with mid in the kicks. I read what was written by Andy about Logic7 that was posted above and the way I read it, I should put my MB in the kicks instead of doors, or possibly not even do MB up front and just do Midrange? I am so confused at this point!


----------



## NSTar

subwoofery said:


> Since you have your 8" in there, there's no need to change your setup.
> Do you have your rears at ear level?
> 
> Kelvin


The rear is in the door panel, stock location. I could put a small mid, 2.5" along with it and raise that higher.


----------



## Chaos

As comprehensive as this thread is, here is a question I don't think I have seen asked & answered yet:

Is there any merit to bypassing a factory amp?

In my truck (2002 dodge w/ 'Infinity' system), I currently use the speaker-level signal directly from the OEM headunit and an LOC to connect to the aftermarket amp. I did this by un-plugging the OEM amp and tapping into the harness to pick up the signal which in turn is converted to low level RCA.

When installing an MS-8, would it be recommended to add the factory amp back into the chain and connect via speaker level, or would it be best to utilize the arrangement I have now?

I realize that running through the setup should indicate when the signal is 'OK' either way, I just wonder if there is any particular advantage/disadvantage as far as MS-8 is concerned.


----------



## Hernan

Chaos said:


> As comprehensive as this thread is, here is a question I don't think I have seen asked & answered yet:
> 
> Is there any merit to bypassing a factory amp?
> 
> In my truck (2002 dodge w/ 'Infinity' system), I currently use the speaker-level signal directly from the OEM headunit and an LOC to connect to the aftermarket amp. I did this by un-plugging the OEM amp and tapping into the harness to pick up the signal which in turn is converted to low level RCA.
> 
> When installing an MS-8, would it be recommended to add the factory amp back into the chain and connect via speaker level, or would it be best to utilize the arrangement I have now?
> 
> I realize that running through the setup should indicate when the signal is 'OK' either way, I just wonder if there is any particular advantage/disadvantage as far as MS-8 is concerned.


The same signal path used into the aftermarket amp should be ok to feed the MS8. The signal must be full range.
Anyway going direct from the HU, bypassing the LOC and OEM amp, to the MS8 will give you the shortest signal path, a good thing.
Does the HU have speaker or line level outputs?


----------



## Chaos

Hernan said:


> The same signal path used into the aftermarket amp should be ok to feed the MS8. The signal must be full range.
> Anyway going direct from the HU, bypassing the LOC and OEM amp, to the MS8 will give you the shortest signal path, a good thing.
> Does the HU have speaker or line level outputs?


The headunit has full range speaker level outputs. I'm trying to find out if skipping the LOC and going straight from the deck to MS-8 is optimum, or if using the LOC and connecting to MS-8 via RCA has any advantage. Based on the content of this thread so far, I'm thinking that the method you suggest is probably correct.





cajunner said:


> If Infinity put their name on it, it's probably got some equalization and/or time alignment built into their amp. Why else would they need Infinity to produce an amp they can have made for cheaper out of mexico?
> 
> That's how I see it, if the car company contracted with/got an audio company involved then the odds are that the signal coming out of the amp has been messed with, before it hits the speakers.
> 
> and that's how I remember a lot of these cars being, they use a standard stereo unit but the upgrade has the electronic signal shaping as part of the amplification and speaker upgrades.



Precisely why I bypassed the amp in the first place  The only reason I can think of to use the factory amp would be if the speaker-level signal is too low when calibrating the MS-8, hence the question about connecting to RCA instead.


----------



## 14642

Niebur3 said:


> Anyone else? I have one person saying 3-way with mid in the pillars and 1 saying 3-way with mid in the kicks. I read what was written by Andy about Logic7 that was posted above and the way I read it, I should put my MB in the kicks instead of doors, or possibly not even do MB up front and just do Midrange? I am so confused at this point!


Don't make this more difficult than it has to be. The biggest center you can fit is best, but so is not having a big box on top of the dash or mounting the center channel in the back of the console. 

MS-8 is designed to send what can't be reproduced by the center channel to the front doors. Obviously, you want the center to do as much as possible, and the image for lower frequencies that the center can't reproduce will depend on time alignment--it'll be a little better in one seat than the other. 

Use what you have and use the 4 in the center. Be careful not to try to make the center play lower than it can. Start with a 200Hz crossover frequency on the center and 80 Hz between the doors and the sub. 80-200 that's steered to the center will instead be sent to the doors, so you won't lose anything. It'll be fine. Changing the doors won't have any effect on the center. 

Finally, speaker matching for center and doors isn't necessary. Frequency response matching is, but that's what the auto EQ does. 

What will SUCK is if you cross the center over at 80 Hz if it can't reproduce those frequencies, because the steering of the low frequency center information depends on the crossover point you choose, not on the acoustic response of the speaker.


----------



## Niebur3

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Don't make this more difficult than it has to be. The biggest center you can fit is best, but so is not having a big box on top of the dash or mounting the center channel in the back of the console.
> 
> MS-8 is designed to send what can't be reproduced by the center channel to the front doors. Obviously, you want the center to do as much as possible, and the image for lower frequencies that the center can't reproduce will depend on time alignment--it'll be a little better in one seat than the other.
> 
> Use what you have and use the 4 in the center. Be careful not to try to make the center play lower than it can. Start with a 200Hz crossover frequency on the center and 80 Hz between the doors and the sub. 80-200 that's steered to the center will instead be sent to the doors, so you won't lose anything. It'll be fine. Changing the doors won't have any effect on the center.
> 
> Finally, speaker matching for center and doors isn't necessary. Frequency response matching is, but that's what the auto EQ does.
> 
> What will SUCK is if you cross the center over at 80 Hz if it can't reproduce those frequencies, because the steering of the low frequency center information depends on the crossover point you choose, not on the acoustic response of the speaker.


So, you are saying to do the 2-way with center/rears over the 3-way with center/rears? Does a 3-way (with a 4" midrange, matching the center channel) give you any advantages over the 2-way? I also heard the rears only play from 100hz and up so an 8" in back gives no advantages over a 5"...correct? Thanks!!!


----------



## subwoofery

Niebur3 said:


> So, you are saying to do the 2-way with center/rears over the 3-way with center/rears? Does a 3-way (with a 4" midrange, matching the center channel) give you any advantages over the 2-way? I also heard the rears only play from 100hz and up so an 8" in back gives no advantages over a 5"...correct? Thanks!!!


Try to read Jorge's thread. He said that he likes 3 way better than 2 way with the MS-8. Greater depth and width. 

Advantage of 3 way is the ease of speaker placement. (smaller midrange that is )

Kelvin


----------



## Niebur3

subwoofery said:


> Try to read Jorge's thread. He said that he likes 3 way better than 2 way with the MS-8. Greater depth and width.
> 
> Advantage of 3 way is the ease of speaker placement. (smaller midrange that is )
> 
> Kelvin


I have talked with Jorge and the problem he had with his 2-way is that is was the HAT Tweeter with the L8 (which he said does not extend up high enough to mate with the tweeter very well). Also, his L8's were mounted in the kick/floor, which hurt his width when using as a midrange.


----------



## n_olympios

subwoofery said:


> Advantage of 3 way is the ease of speaker placement. (smaller midrange that is )
> 
> Kelvin


LOL Kelvin, it's not that easy when you think the midrange is an extra speaker compared to a 2-way set. :laugh:


----------



## michaelsil1

subwoofery said:


> Advantage of 3 way is the ease of speaker placement.


You've got to be kidding!


----------



## 14642

Sure, there are advantages of a three way, but they hav nothing to do with the performance of the center channel. They DO have something to do with dispersion and making up for the near-side off-axis response of the bigger driver. I use a three-way in my car and won't go back. 

The reason i suggested what I suggested is because I seem to recall reading that a stock appearance was a primary concern for the poster. 

I suggest hooking up what's in the car now. Tuning it, making an evaluation of the shortcomings and fixing those once they are known.


----------



## Horsemanwill

Andy what you should do is kill Bose for making it hard on everyone


----------



## rain27

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sure, there are advantages of a three way, but they hav nothing to do with the performance of the center channel. They DO have something to do with dispersion and making up for the near-side off-axis response of the bigger driver. I use a three-way in my car and won't go back.
> 
> The reason i suggested what I suggested is because I seem to recall reading that a stock appearance was a primary concern for the poster.
> 
> I suggest hooking up what's in the car now. Tuning it, making an evaluation of the shortcomings and fixing those once they are known.


That's interesting. I assumed JBL's philosophy was that a 2-way system was the way to go because (correct me if I'm wrong), JBL does not sell a 3-way set up.


----------



## keepitreal07

i just wanna clarify something guys

why is there nearly 10 for sale atm, are these units any good for the amount that are being sold atm

and if they are, someone send me one to australia


----------



## RattyMcClelland

There are loads for sale because the americans bought mass amounts from amazon.com with the 45% discount. 

IMO 2 way and 3way are as good as each other. Its car/driver dependant IMO. i prefer 2 way for the weight saving, less drivers ease of setup.


----------



## nashstat

*Re: MS-8 makes my system sound hollow.*



Duper said:


> To Andy, or anyone with some tips:
> I just recently had the MS-8 professionally installed in a 2011 Camaro with the Boston Acoustics system and I added an Alpine M6 amp + JL 10w6v2 sub to it. While it has definitely improved the sound from the stock setup, it sounds pretty hollow for most of the music I play (some sounds really clear but other music is 'uncomfortable'). The MS-8 also gets pretty warm after listening to it for a little while. I'm wondering if I just need to bite the bullet and upgrade with new speakers & amp like my installer suggests or if something might be configured wrong.
> 
> *Here's what I've tried so far:*
> I've run the sweeps at different volumes, turned logic 7, & processing on/off, and tried running it without the center speaker. I also tried getting the crossover point of the center as low as I could but the lowest I could go without it sounding like garbage is 2500Hz.
> 
> Configuration (pretty much straight stock / recommended config):
> 
> 1 Sub: subsonic filter 20Hz, subsonic slope: 12dB, Xover: 80Hz, Sub/Front slope: 24dB
> 2-way Fronts (1" tweeter + 6.5" mid): Front Lo/Hi Xover: 3500Hz, Front Lo/Hi Slope: 24dB
> 1-way Sides: Side Hi Pass: 100Hz, Hi Pass Slope: 24dB
> 1-way 3.5" Center: Center Hi Pass: 2500Hz, Hi Pass Slope: 24dB
> 
> Although I had it professionally installed at a highly recommended dealer, they weren't familiar with it so it took them a while. It's pretty idiot proof though - high level inputs in, output to the speakers, but I'm thinking they might have plugged in more than only the left and right high level inputs. Could that cause it to sound hollow if they did?
> 
> If not, any suggestions on what I could do? Thanks in advance...


I just yesterday got the MS-8 professionally installed on my Camaro 2SS. 

So there are a few things you have to know about the BA amp. It is a 9 channel amp (yes 9 channels). 2 channels for each front, 1 for center, and even the rears have 2 seperate channels per speaker (they are bi-amped).

So the issue you have with the MS-8 is that it only has 8 channels. So you have to somehow get rid of one of the channels from the BA amp. You cannot do anything in the rears since they are bi-amped by the BA amp itself. You can either get rid of the center or connect the front tweeters and mid-range as 1 channel for each speaker.

I did the latter, since I like the center channel. I also have a sub in the trunk, which I wanted to connect to the MS-8. So now 7 channels of the MS-8 are powering the speakers and 1 is used for the amp.

Now for the MS-8 you have to configure the Front L and R as 1 way speakers. Use the Side 1 way option for the rear tweeters and the Rear 1 way for the rear woofers. Make sure you configure the rear tweeters to 3500hz and above.

For the center try anything between 2500hz to 3000hz. Not sure how your installer connected everything but you may have to take it back for them to reconnect it all. 

I messed up on the speaker settings as well and the MS-8 sounded terrible in the car. I reconfigured everything and gave each speaker it's recommended frequency (3500hz for tweeters) and 150hz for mid range woofers. I reran setup and there was a night and day difference in the sound.

I still have to take it back to the installers because the guy there is going to recalibrate and tune the sound, he needs about 3 hours to calibrate it.

Hope this helps. PM me if you have additional questions.


----------



## perfektj

This may have already been asked, but I could not find it through the search.

Andy, I know that the MS-8 optimizes whatever equipment you have, but what about offering 5.1 or 7.1 speaker sets, and matching amps for those who want to get rid of their factory junk. I think that at least a good center channel would make a huge difference to people who are having trouble integrating a center. 

Just a thought.


----------



## kaigoss69

perfektj said:


> This may have already been asked, but I could not find it through the search.
> 
> Andy, I know that the MS-8 optimizes whatever equipment you have, but what about offering 5.1 or 7.1 speaker sets, and matching amps for those who want to get rid of their factory junk. I think that at least a good center channel would make a huge difference to people who are having trouble integrating a center.
> 
> Just a thought.


A car ain't no living room!


----------



## perfektj

kaigoss69 said:


> A car ain't no living room!


I agree, but it seems to make sense that the speakers in your car be timbre and voice matched. Most of the major players in the surround biz insist that all the speakers be identical for best performance. A nice low profile 4" or 5" full range center in a decent looking enclosure would help. I just think that if the MS-8 was made to sound best with a center channel, maybe they should offer one.


----------



## subwoofery

perfektj said:


> I agree, but it seems to make sense that the speakers in your car be timbre and voice matched. Most of the major players in the surround biz insist that all the speakers be identical for best performance. A nice low profile 4" or 5" full range center in a decent looking enclosure would help. I just think that if the MS-8 was made to sound best with a center channel, maybe they should offer one.


They can't offer one for every install. Some can only accept 3"+tweets. Some SUV dash can accept 6" coax. Heck, I'm sure some Luxury cars can accept 8" without being ugly. 

However, you can wait for some companies like Q Logic and such... They might come out with an OEM look center channel for each kind of vehicule. 

Kelvin


----------



## rixthetrick

Hello forum. Newbie here - to the forum.
I found this thread after doing a search, and it has been asked before:
has anyone successfully modded the MS-8 for digital signal input.
Happy to void warranty to achieve this goal.

I am looking for optimum performance, and running data through a DAC into a ADC to be processed and then put through a DAC again isn't the best scenario
to me.

Anyone got schematics??


----------



## MikeF

I can't be the only one who is so unlucky, but since a quick search didn't reveal anything, guess I'll have to ask here.

Am I the only person who received an MS-8 with a SET-UP CD and User Guide that only contains .pdf files *and no audio files for the calibration process?* Picked up my car Saturday and was there for the system set-up, but when the disc was inserted, the readout says *UNSUPPORTED*. The volumn control on my head unit is either OFF or ON, and the volumn level is the same at 1 as it is at (whatever the highest reading is). Just loaded the disc on the PC and found 15 .pdf files, but no audio files. Since the 'pink noise' tests are the first step in setting up, can't begin to tell you how disappointed I am so far.


----------



## Horsemanwill

actually it's already been covered in this thread they had a bad batch of cd's go out


----------



## Duper

MikeF said:


> I can't be the only one who is so unlucky, but since a quick search didn't reveal anything, guess I'll have to ask here.
> 
> Am I the only person who received an MS-8 with a SET-UP CD and User Guide that only contains .pdf files *and no audio files for the calibration process?* Picked up my car Saturday and was there for the system set-up, but when the disc was inserted, the readout says *UNSUPPORTED*. The volumn control on my head unit is either OFF or ON, and the volumn level is the same at 1 as it is at (whatever the highest reading is). Just loaded the disc on the PC and found 15 .pdf files, but no audio files. Since the 'pink noise' tests are the first step in setting up, can't begin to tell you how disappointed I am so far.


Yeah, same thing happened to me and others - here's a link to download the missing file: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11655918/MLS Setup Track Small.wav 

Burn that to a CD and you'll be good to go.


----------



## MikeF

Thanks for your responses. Must be somewhere in the 20-30 pages I haven't read yet. A search on "calibration" only returned 2 posts, so went for the SOS. Tks again.


----------



## Brew0360

Andy and All,

I had my MS-8 installed in July and it is connected to a 5.1 OEM head unit (Acura TL AWD) after the amp. The MS-8 manual states that I should have only connected the front and subwoofer speaker outputs. I also have the rear door and rear deck speaker outputs connected. My system is not very detailed eventhough I have change out all of the OEM speakers to mostly high end Focals and added JL HD amps. Is this due to connecting the side and rear deck speakers? Will it make a difference if I disconnect them?


----------



## oca123

Brew,

Probably. Try front+sub, making sure sub outputs are connected to inputs 7+8 of the MS8. Then run calibration, and acoustic measurements, making sure to set the volume low. If you are driving your speakers directly, try -20dB or lower.


----------



## Brew0360

oca123 said:


> Brew,
> 
> Probably. Try front+sub, making sure sub outputs are connected to inputs 7+8 of the MS8. Then run calibration, and acoustic measurements, making sure to set the volume low. If you are driving your speakers directly, try -20dB or lower.


Thanks. I'm hoping to know for sure because it has been an ongoing discussion with my installer and it's going to cost me money if I make the change, then turn around and change it back.


----------



## kaigoss69

Brew0360 said:


> Thanks. I'm hoping to know for sure because it has been an ongoing discussion with my installer and it's going to cost me money if I make the change, then turn around and change it back.


Why should there even be a discussion, the manual is very clear about it!


----------



## Brew0360

kaigoss69 said:


> Why should there even be a discussion, the manual is very clear about it!


Agreed. Wasn't questioning what is stated in the manual. Question is whether having the rear door and rear speakers connected has an adverse effect on the overall functionality of the MS-8. Just asking for a little assistance for a freshman.

I've been trying to reconnect with Andy, so if you are out there, please assist.


----------



## 14642

There's no need to connect side and rear speaker outputs to the inputs of MS-8. Depending on what the factory system does, it could be detrimental, although it's unlikely. If there's a great deal of delay on the sides and rears, compensating for that delay chews up processing power unnecessarily, for example. Just disconnect them. Use the front and sub only. Calibrate the input with the CD and then do acoustic calibration. If you're using additional amps, MS-8's volume control should be much lower than -20. Try -30 or -35 to start and set the input sensitivity on the amps to 2V. If you're not sure where 2V is, look in the manual for the sensitivity range and estimate or call the amp manufacturer.


----------



## 14642

Anybody here in the LA area with an MS-8 installed in an otherwise stock system or one with a stock system and an upgraded sub who'd be willing to demo their car for a bunch of European Press people on November 16th, sometime in the afternoon?


----------



## 2009JOHNCOOPERWORKS

Andy

Do you think the ms-8 will work well with a CDT Audio upstage system ?

Thanks and please make a 5 channel ms amp .


----------



## Duper

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Anybody here in the LA area with an MS-8 installed in an otherwise stock system or one with a stock system and an upgraded sub who'd be willing to demo their car for a bunch of European Press people on November 16th, sometime in the afternoon?


 :surprised:
Are you kidding? I literally had that exact setup on my 2011 Camaro UNTIL YESTERDAY. I just pulled the trigger with my installer to start on an upgrade of the stock speakers with a new amp on Friday. He's about half way done and probably too far along to reverse it and make it stock again. DOH! 

It would have been awesome to have you check out my install and do a quick 'Andy Tune' on it to see what you could make it sound like with the stock stuff in it. Oh well, I hope you find a suitable demo car!


----------



## phy1708

I installed my MS-8 about a week ago. I'm centainly enjoying its autotune capability, but then I have some problems too.

My setup is 2-way front(Morel Elate 6), small(2.5 or 3.5", not sure) full-range rear, and a 12" sub. All X-over settings are recommended defaults except for the rear channel, which is high-passed at 250Hz. The headunit is HX-D2(DRZ9255) in direct mode(full range output) and MS-8's internal amp is not in use.

1) AFAIK, MS-8 adjusts output levels for each channel during its autotune. However, rear speakers always seemed to be too loud after the autotune. At first, when I didn't know that it was the rear speaker level, I felt as if the sound image was somewhat expanded. But then I realized that the image was less focused rather than expanded. I just couldn't figure out where the singer was located when I turned my head to the left or right. 

I tried Logic 7 and it did sound more focused with Logic 7 on, but I thought it couldn't be the right cure since I don't have any center channel. My final solution to this problem was to adjust the fader control to the Front by about 3-4 steps. I also tried lowering the amp gain but it didn't help much and still needed to adjust the Fader. 

I just don't understand how MS-8 could not properly do this simple level adjustment thing. But, what's more embarrassing is that I don't think I have ever seen anybody on this forum complaining about this problem. I've seen discussions on sub-woofer levels, but not rears.

2) I seem to get better results in the front passenger seat than in the driver seat through the autotune. I suspect that this is because I have some small stuffs on the dashboard on the driver's side. Things like small blind spot mirror mounted on the sail panel near the left tweeter, electronic toll payment device under the left tweeter. 

Do you think I need to move these things to somewhere else to get better results in the driver's seat? I also have a navigation device with a 7" LCD screen on the dashboard, but since it's in the middle of the dashboard(above the center vents), I don't think it is a big problem.

3) Autotune doesn't seem to be quite consistent. Everytime I run an autotune, I seem to get different results. Sometimes it sounds distorted, other times it sounds OK. Sometimes it sounds good in the driver seat, but not so in the passenger seat. 

In the latter case, if possible, I'd like to remeasure only the passenger seat while preserving the driver seat measurement data. Is this possible? If not now, will there be any future firmware upgrade to make this possible? 

I know that I can remeasure a selected seat before I choose "Done" in the menu during the caliration. So what I mean is whether or not I can remeasure a seat (or seats but not all of them) once the whole calibration process has been completed.

Thank you in advance for your kind attention, and pardon me for my bad English (non English speaker).


----------



## BigRed

if you don't have a center, don't use logic 7. the rears will sound too loud in this configuratin so you will have to adjust the fader. this has been my experience.


----------



## MikeF

Brew0360 said:


> Agreed. Wasn't questioning what is stated in the manual. Question is whether having the rear door and rear speakers connected has an adverse effect on the overall functionality of the MS-8. Just asking for a little assistance for a freshman.
> 
> I've been trying to reconnect with Andy, so if you are out there, please assist.


I think the biggest featuer of the TL 5.1 is the information which comes across the *ELS +/-* signals from the factory HU to the factory AMP. The MS-8 has no way of receiving this information, but instead performs it's own processing to provide its 5.1 audio presence. Listen to the supplied DVD-A disc received with the car in a non-modded vehicle, and notice how discretely each instrument is place - especially using track 21 of the disc. I went a different route with mine, using two MS-8 outputs for the 165 KR2 tweeters, two outputs for the 165 KR2 mids (a 2-way front), two outputs for the rear deck 165 KR mids (tweet's currently not used but will be changing this), one output for the center which is the mid from the 165 KRX3, and the last output for the sub. Am still tweeking the system (to include not originally having the calibration audio file on the CD), but will probably end up putting the 165 KR tweets somewhere under the factory sub speaker grill and use the JL sub controls and the Focal crossovers to mimic the factory setup which although it is listed by Acura as Rear channel and Surround channel, appears in fact to be rear mids (shelf) and rear treble (doors) - thereby giving me the 5.1 as the MS-8 intended to.

You'll be able to read about it on the Azine forum soon (known to you as Six Shifter there).


----------



## Niebur3

MikeF said:


> I think the biggest featuer of the TL 5.1 is the information which comes across the *ELS +/-* signals from the factory HU to the factory AMP. The MS-8 has no way of receiving this information, but instead performs it's own processing to provide its 5.1 audio presence. Listen to the supplied DVD-A disc received with the car in a non-modded vehicle, and notice how discretely each instrument is place - especially using track 21 of the disc. I went a different route with mine, using two MS-8 outputs for the 165 KR2 tweeters, two outputs for the 165 KR2 mids (a 2-way front), two outputs for the rear deck 165 KR mids (tweet's currently not used but will be changing this), one output for the center which is the mid from the 165 KRX3, and the last output for the sub. Am still tweeking the system (to include not originally having the calibration audio file on the CD), but will probably end up putting the 165 KR tweets somewhere under the factory sub speaker grill and use the JL sub controls and the Focal crossovers to mimic the factory setup which although it is listed by Acura as Rear channel and Surround channel, appears in fact to be rear mids (shelf) and rear treble (doors) - thereby giving me the 5.1 as the MS-8 intended to.
> 
> You'll be able to read about it on the Azine forum soon (known to you as Six Shifter there).


He is referring to having them connected as input signals, not output signals.


----------



## MikeF

I understand that ... but he wanted to maintain the TL's 5.1 surround in his install (which originally incorporated the use of two Clean Sweeps until he switched to the MS-8), which definitely depends on the factory ELS processing which is fed into the factory amp.


----------



## Niebur3

I have talked to other TL owners who have just sent their front channels and sub before the amp for signal and have had no problems with the MS8.


----------



## MikeF

which is exactly what I'm doing ... but depending upon what gen TL owners you've talked to, it may/may not be relevant


----------



## Salami

BigRed said:


> if you don't have a center, don't use logic 7. the rears will sound too loud in this configuratin so you will have to adjust the fader. this has been my experience.


So is it even worth installing rears? Installing rears would be some what easy, but I am not ready to cut the dash for a center.

Is installing the rears only a waste of my time, Logic 7 or not?


----------



## BigRed

the rears are worth it if you have a center and logic 7.


----------



## hallsc

BigRed said:


> if you don't have a center, don't use logic 7. the rears will sound too loud in this configuratin so you will have to adjust the fader. this has been my experience.


Really? I thought it was a lack of rears that make the Logic 7 funky. Did you try your MS-8 without the center? I hope this is not the case, as my plan is to hook up the MS-8 without a center channel at first to see how I like it, then add a center if I felt the MS-8 improved things, just to solidify the center stage. But now I guess I won't be able to know how it's going to sound?


----------



## phy1708

BigRed said:


> if you don't have a center, don't use logic 7. the rears will sound too loud in this configuratin so you will have to adjust the fader. this has been my experience.


I don't have a center as I said, and so I turned logic 7 off. But my rears are still too loud with the fader in neutral position. Do you mean that you got loud rears only when you turned logic 7 on?


BTW, anyone tried mid/tweeter crossover frequency other than the recommended 3500Hz and got better results?

My front speaker set includes passive networks with the crossover frequency set at 1800Hz, and with the slope selectable between -6dB and -12dB for both the mid and the tweeter. So I started from 1800Hz, -24dB and also tried 2000, 2500, 2800, 3000 and 3200, all with -24dB slope. I may have to repeat calibrations with these frequencies again to finalize my conclusion, but anyway so far the best result I got was with 3500Hz, the recommended value.

I don't mean that I'm not yet satisfied with the calibration result done with 3500Hz. In fact, I'm quite a bit surprised at it. Even the lowest bass sound comes from above the dashboard, not from the leg room. I could never make it sound like this before with all those crossover, time alignment and EQ settings I've done.

It was a commonly accepted knowledge(or belief?) among Korean caraudio enthusiasts that the lower the crossover frequency goes, the better sound stage and imaging we could get. That was one of the main reasons that we prefered tweeters such as Dynaudio Esotar or Morel MDT-33, all with quite low resonant frequencies.

My Morel tweeter can also handle sound as low as 1800Hz with -6dB or -12dB slope, though it's a small-sized 1" tweeter.

However, contrary to my previous caraudio experiences, MS-8 provides perfect bass sound above the dashboard even with the crossover frequency set at 3500Hz. That's marvellous. And it makes me wonder if I will be able to make it sound better with a lower crossover frequency. I have not been successful with it so far. I'd like to know someone else's experience who believes he did it, so that I may get encouraged to try it again.


----------



## Salami

BigRed said:


> the rears are worth it if you have a center and logic 7.


So.....

Are we supposed top assume rears are not worth it without a center? 

I am not at this point going to cut up my dash for a center. Rears would take some time but will cause no damage I can't easily reverse.


----------



## Brew0360

MikeF said:


> I understand that ... but he wanted to maintain the TL's 5.1 surround in his install (which originally incorporated the use of two Clean Sweeps until he switched to the MS-8), which definitely depends on the factory ELS processing which is fed into the factory amp.


MikeF. Thanks for the info but I never wanted to keep TL's OEM 5.1 surround. My center is not connected to the MS-8 because I did not want to lose voice feedback and navi-voice. 
I'm using the MS-8 for all of my processing. Just trying to get info for my final tweaks and I'm done.


----------



## AAAAAAA

Rears are worth it even without a center.


----------



## subwoofery

AAAAAAA said:


> Rears are worth it even without a center.


Can you please add some comments? 

Kelvin


----------



## AAAAAAA

Well the only way I feel describes it is saying is like this:

it makes it sound less like I am listening to it in my car.


----------



## 14642

I suggest turning L7 off if you DON'T HAVE REAR SPEAKERS and using it IF YOU DO. The level setting algorithm is designed to match the levels of the front, center, rear and side speakers and to set the subwoofer level about 3dB louder than I like it. That means that when you turn off L7, you'll have to adjust the fader toward the front if you want front stage and a little sound from the rear without L7. 

For those of us IASCA peeps who are used to front with no rear, the rears will sound too loud without L7, but to a non-competitor who likes to have sound from everywhere (my dad), this will sound great. For those super-technical bonus-point-scooping competitors, adjusting the fader a few notches to the front ought to be a pretty simple adjustment, but it sounds better with L7, so why not just turn it on?


----------



## NSTar

Question: I'm a noob so don't kill me.

If I send one channel from the MS8 to a 3 way active crossover then to the amps for the front left speakers... will this defeat the purpose of the ms8?

What will the MS8 do during tuning? will it sum the sound from the 3 speakers of the left as one channel correctly or will it be confused with signal coming from three source? I noticed that it will sweep from one channel to the next. Just wonder how it will handle the sonic from channel to channel when an active or even passive crossover is involved.

If it's okay, would it be beneficial to have 3 way fronts (L/R), 3 way side (L/R), 3 way center, and 3 way rear (L/R), mono sub? for a total of 13 speakers!!! 

I know, this belongs in the stupid question, but I guess it's related to the MS8...


----------



## Hernan

AAAAAAA said:


> Rears are worth it even without a center.


I'm running rear without center.
Sometimes I feel it sounds strange, as some sounds are gone...

I tried the center channel and I works very well.


----------



## AAAAAAA

Center channel is great, locks down the image, I do find that the center seems a bit to dominant though... sometimes it's almost like everything simply comes from the center hehe.

I have heard the same as you with the rears, sometimes it's a big funky, but most of the time it simply is better.


----------



## Hernan

AAAAAAA said:


> Center channel is great, locks down the image, I do find that the center seems a bit to dominant though... sometimes it's almost like everything simply comes from the center hehe.
> 
> I have heard the same as you with the rears, sometimes it's a big funky, but most of the time it simply is better.


In fact I don't hear the rears at all with L7 on. I will turn up the amp gain a bit on the sides to see what happend.


----------



## AAAAAAA

^Thats kinda the point I think, they are barely noticeable but they add "space" to the sound. It's like room correction really.


----------



## t3sn4f2

They add only when the music contains something that the algorithm see as "rear/side" information. If there is nothing in the song then they remain silent. IOW I don't think they create a sense of ambiance and space for all songs.


----------



## NSTar

t3sn4f2 said:


> They add only when the music contains something that the algorithm see as "rear/side" information. If there is nothing in the song then they remain silent. IOW I don't think they create a sense of ambiance and space for all songs.


so all you need is a cheap as coax there to produce some sound..when it sound. LOL. Any decent and cheep speakers for the rear? I usually don't go cheap but it warrants it since it's rarely see action. I mean, it's not gonna get some dynamic action to distort ...right?


----------



## Dangerranger

I'm using my factory whizzer cone rear speakers. IMO they fit the bill. They can go up to 10khz, they're 2 ohm thus efficient enough to run off of the MS-8's internal amp so I don't have to dedicate an external amp to them, and they do the job. And I don't currently have a center (tho it's in the works) and they definitely add to the sound in a positive way.


----------



## 14642

Whys is there only best and worst? If someone says there's no need to install high end speakers, why does that turn into "all you need is some cheap piece of crap"? 

Alpo or fillet? Is that really the question? It's almost like we're trying to elect a moving coil dynamic loudspeaker to public office and only the most outrageous statements register with anyone. 

Do I hear a "Baby Killer!" 

Apparently outrage is now the favorite American pastime.


----------



## kkant

Idiocy is a close second.


----------



## subwoofery

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Whys is there only best and worst? If someone says there's no need to install high end speakers, why does that turn into "all you need is some cheap piece of crap"?
> 
> Alpo or fillet? Is that really the question? It's almost like we're trying to elect a moving coil dynamic loudspeaker to public office and only the most outrageous statements register with anyone.
> 
> Do I hear a "Baby Killer!"
> 
> Apparently outrage is now the favorite American pastime.


Ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuh... That's gotta hurt  

Kelvin


----------



## Dangerranger

NSTar said:


> so all you need is a cheap as coax there to produce some sound..when it sound. LOL. Any decent and cheep speakers for the rear? I usually don't go cheap but it warrants it since it's rarely see action. I mean, it's not gonna get some dynamic action to distort ...right?


I don't know if I'd really say get something out of a flea market, but the main thing for the rears is this: it's generally a good idea to keep low bass out of the rear channels, so you're not going to need a speaker that drops down to 80hz with extreme authority or anything. 160hz is a good HPF for the rears. And you're not going to need extreme top end, 10khz is about as high as a speaker would have to go smoothly. So anything that fits in that region. The good thing, which is why I liked keeping my factory rear speakers, is that most coaxials are designed to be more efficient to run off of factory head units and such, and what they generally lack to get said efficiency is low bass output, which you don't need with rear channels when running Logic 7. So I can run front components that are designed to dig low and dump a lot of power on them, and the rears even running off of the MS-8's power will be able to keep up with them. Simplifies the system a lot in my case because I have a smaller crew cab truck without a ton of room for amplifiers


----------



## Duper

What do you guys think would be a better config? 
1) Active setup: MS-8 powering tweeters + 4channel 100wx4 amp powering door mid-ranges + 6x9 rear speakers
or
2) Passive setup: MS-8 to 4 channel amp powering passive crossover configured door speakers (tweeter & mid) + rear?

Thanks,
Chris


----------



## NSTar

Dangerranger said:


> I don't know if I'd really say get something out of a flea market, but the main thing for the rears is this: it's generally a good idea to keep low bass out of the rear channels, so you're not going to need a speaker that drops down to 80hz with extreme authority or anything. 160hz is a good HPF for the rears. And you're not going to need extreme top end, 10khz is about as high as a speaker would have to go smoothly. So anything that fits in that region. The good thing, which is why I liked keeping my factory rear speakers, is that most coaxials are designed to be more efficient to run off of factory head units and such, and what they generally lack to get said efficiency is low bass output, which you don't need with rear channels when running Logic 7. So I can run front components that are designed to dig low and dump a lot of power on them, and the rears even running off of the MS-8's power will be able to keep up with them. Simplifies the system a lot in my case because I have a smaller crew cab truck without a ton of room for amplifiers



U know what's amazing? my 3.5" critical mass goes that low.. [email protected] 12, using the ms8 amp... amazing little thing.. no distortion. It couldn't handle 50hz though LOL. Currently have it as center but will move it to the rear. Will probably run a 2 or 3 way for center.


----------



## quality_sound

Duper said:


> What do you guys think would be a better config?
> 1) Active setup: MS-8 powering tweeters + 4channel 100wx4 amp powering door mid-ranges + 6x9 rear speakers
> or
> 2) Passive setup: MS-8 to 4 channel amp powering passive crossover configured door speakers (tweeter & mid) + rear?
> 
> Thanks,
> Chris


I'm doing 1 (but with a center) simply because if I'm going to upgrade, I'm going to upgrade. Plus it seems like the MS-8 can handle a passive setup with no problems so you don't have to worry about using more amp channels and setting your own crossover points. This approach won't appeal to everyone but if nothing else it's a good starting point. It would be very easy later on to add more amps and go active.


----------



## Duper

quality_sound said:


> I'm doing 1 (but with a center) simply because if I'm going to upgrade, I'm going to upgrade. Plus it seems like the MS-8 can handle a passive setup with no problems so you don't have to worry about using more amp channels and setting your own crossover points. This approach won't appeal to everyone but if nothing else it's a good starting point. It would be very easy later on to add more amps and go active.


OK, just to make sure I understood you... You have the MS-8 powering your tweeters and the center channel? And a 4-channel amp powering your mids in your doors and rear speakers? 

And it sounds good? The MS-8 can give those tweets and center enough power?


----------



## 14642

Duper said:


> What do you guys think would be a better config?
> 1) Active setup: MS-8 powering tweeters + 4channel 100wx4 amp powering door mid-ranges + 6x9 rear speakers
> or
> 2) Passive setup: MS-8 to 4 channel amp powering passive crossover configured door speakers (tweeter & mid) + rear?
> 
> Thanks,
> Chris


Amp powering front in bi-amp, MS-8 on rear speakers.


----------



## quality_sound

Duper said:


> OK, just to make sure I understood you... You have the MS-8 powering your tweeters and the center channel? And a 4-channel amp powering your mids in your doors and rear speakers?
> 
> And it sounds good? The MS-8 can give those tweets and center enough power?


No, MS-8 powers nothing. 2 amps, 600/4 and 900/5. 

600/4 - 150 Watts to each front and midbass
900/5 - 100 Watts to each rear, 2 channels bridged to 150 Watts for the center, 500 Watts to the sub


----------



## Dangerranger

NSTar said:


> U know what's amazing? my 3.5" critical mass goes that low.. [email protected] 12, using the ms8 amp... amazing little thing.. no distortion. It couldn't handle 50hz though LOL. Currently have it as center but will move it to the rear. Will probably run a 2 or 3 way for center.


The 3" and 4" drivers of the world have improved quite a bit, no doubt. Still, a 6.5" is going to be substantially cleaner. It's still (and will always be) a situation where any sentence praising the driver is going to end in "for what they are". That said I've been quite impressed with my Peerless 2.5" drivers with the MS-8 getting them tamed.


----------



## AWC

Anybody want to to sum this megathread up? I'm building my dream MS8 system and I stopped reading this thread about 2 years ago...lol. 

I am putting these items into an MS8 build...I own all of it and have installed all of it except for rears. I'm working on rear pods since my OEM spot had my rears about 10 inches from my face. All woofers are in an AP enclosure as will my rear fill. 

3 Way fronts (Diamond 8.6, CDM 88, Morel Piccolo Tweets). Passively biamped. One Sinfoni 150.2x per side.
Morel Supremo 5 Center, no Tweet. Sinfoni 45.2 (about 240 watts bridged)
Morel Elate 6 Rear. No tweet. Treo TE 600.2 (about 150 X 2)
Morel Ultimo 12 Sub, Arc Audio 1500dr (about 800 watts)


I'm controlling sources and volume with a Sinfoni Premier One which is just a high quality source selector/preamp. This is important for the future since I'll be using a car pc, JVC DVD Unit and either a Nak or Denon CD Player.


----------



## t3sn4f2

AWC said:


> Anybody want to to sum this megathread up? I'm building my dream MS8 system and I stopped reading this thread about 2 years ago...lol.
> 
> I am putting these items into an MS8 build...I own all of it and have installed all of it except for rears. I'm working on rear pods since my OEM spot had my rears about 10 inches from my face. All woofers are in an AP enclosure as will my rear fill.
> 
> 3 Way fronts (Diamond 8.6, CDM 88, Morel Piccolo Tweets). Passively biamped. One Sinfoni 150.2x per side.
> Morel Supremo 5 Center, no Tweet. Sinfoni 45.2 (about 240 watts bridged)
> Morel Elate 6 Rear. No tweet. Treo TE 600.2 (about 150 X 2)
> Morel Ultimo 12 Sub, Arc Audio 1500dr (about 800 watts)
> 
> I'm controlling sources and volume with a Sinfoni Premier One which is just a high quality source selector/preamp. This is important for the future since I'll be using a car pc, JVC DVD Unit and either a Nak or Denon CD Player.


You'll need a tweeter for the center and the rears should play from ~150Hz-10kHz with good dispersion unless the axis degree that extends up that high is "on axis" with you.

Will the center be mounted in the lower center console like you had it with Imprint?


----------



## AWC

t3sn4f2 said:


> You'll need a tweeter for the center and the rears should play from ~150Hz-10kHz with good dispersion unless the axis degree that extends up that high is "on axis" with you.
> 
> Will the center be mounted in the lower center console like you had it with Imprint?


No, I've got it in the dash pointing straight up to the glass. I'm surprised you remember my other set-up...it was great, though. Different car, now.

A tweeter for the center, huh? I've got a morel horn and a Vifa XT25....but no crossover plans as of yet. Will have to be passive to get the most out of the little amp. 

My rears are perfectly on axis but I think they play only to around 4k. It almost seems like a small full ranger may be better. Maybe I'll steal my MT23's back from the little ladies Camry and stick something else in there.

I'm considering running an actual horn with waveguide at the place where the dash meets the glass, using the windshield as a waveguide of sorts. Its the best I could do to keep it looking good with a center tweet. I hate to mix tweeter types, though. I'll have to look at it. 

Thanks for the reply


----------



## t3sn4f2

AWC said:


> No, I've got it in the dash pointing straight up to the glass. I'm surprised you remember my other set-up...it was great, though. Different car, now.
> 
> A tweeter for the center, huh? I've got a morel horn and a Vifa XT25....but no crossover plans as of yet. Will have to be passive to get the most out of the little amp.
> 
> My rears are perfectly on axis but I think they play only to around 4k. It almost seems like a small full ranger may be better. Maybe I'll steal my MT23's back from the little ladies Camry and stick something else in there.
> 
> I'm considering running an actual horn with waveguide at the place where the dash meets the glass, using the windshield as a waveguide of sorts. Its the best I could do to keep it looking good with a center tweet. I hate to mix tweeter types, though. I'll have to look at it.
> 
> Thanks for the reply


No problem 

I think the real meat and potatoes of the thread has been reposted and expended on in the post covering from the beginning of this year till a month or so ago. You should find all you need in that area. There are also some newer tip, request, issues, and review threads floating around.


----------



## ormandj

My apologies if this has already been asked, I didn't see it in the 75 or so pages of the thread I looked through. With the MS-8, with tweeters (HAT L1 pro V2s, specifically) mounting in the a-pillars, is it best to have them pointed towards the driver/passenger, directly at each other, or some other arrangement?

IE: Should the driver-side a-pillar tweeter point at the passenger seat's listening position, and the passenger-side a-pillar tweeter point at the driver seat's listening position? Or, should the tweeters be pointed directly across the dash at each other? Any other suggestion? I'm not in a position to try and audition all of the possible mounting locations, unfortunately, so I'm just looking for a good general rule of thumb, realizing that it might not work. My thought is to go with them pointed at each other, just high enough to clear any dash obstructions. I have a '11 Subaru STi, if that helps, and here's a picture of what the dash looks like:


----------



## jf2oo6

Sorry if this has been asked guys, but this thread is way to long to read all of it. 

I would like to get an MS-8, but my hu (pioneer avh-p4200dvd) has 4 volt pre-outs. Can I still use the ms-8 with this?

I would love to have this to run my HAT 3 way, rear fill, and sub.


----------



## Niebur3

jf2oo6 said:


> Sorry if this has been asked guys, but this thread is way to long to read all of it.
> 
> I would like to get an MS-8, but my hu (pioneer avh-p4200dvd) has 4 volt pre-outs. Can I still use the ms-8 with this?
> 
> I would love to have this to run my HAT 3 way, rear fill, and sub.


It will work just fine. Your radio does not put 4 volts out all the time, just at max volume.


----------



## jf2oo6

Niebur3 said:


> It will work just fine. Your radio does not put 4 volts out all the time, just at max volume.


Thats what I was thinking too. Just worried about spending $800 on something and then damging it because of something like this.

Thanks for the reply though.


----------



## quality_sound

ormandj said:


> My apologies if this has already been asked, I didn't see it in the 75 or so pages of the thread I looked through. With the MS-8, with tweeters (HAT L1 pro V2s, specifically) mounting in the a-pillars, is it best to have them pointed towards the driver/passenger, directly at each other, or some other arrangement?
> 
> IE: Should the driver-side a-pillar tweeter point at the passenger seat's listening position, and the passenger-side a-pillar tweeter point at the driver seat's listening position? Or, should the tweeters be pointed directly across the dash at each other? Any other suggestion? I'm not in a position to try and audition all of the possible mounting locations, unfortunately, so I'm just looking for a good general rule of thumb, realizing that it might not work. My thought is to go with them pointed at each other, just high enough to clear any dash obstructions. I have a '11 Subaru STi, if that helps, and here's a picture of what the dash looks like:


Your existing sail panel locations look fine. I'd just use those.


----------



## kaigoss69

quality_sound said:


> Your existing sail panel locations look fine. I'd just use those.


I think he was asking about _aiming_, not _positioning_. 

I am interested to hear the answer to this as well. I have them pointed toward each other right now and I was wondering if thy would be on-axis, would the staging be different? I am looking for a little deeper stage.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Niebur3 said:


> It will work just fine. Your radio does not put 4 volts out all the time, just at max volume.


Do you or anyone else know if the "input setup" stage of the MS-8 will run on the RCA inputs? I was thinking it would be a good way to find the exact aftermarket head unit volume where it clips the MS-8's inputs. 

Then we don't have to worry about clipped peaks creeping up on us, slightly compressing the music or even worse subtle affecting the quality without us clearly picking up on it. 

It would sure suck to be listening to a song and taking it as one that is simply not such a quality one, and not realizing it's not the songs fault but an overdriven input.

I know how to do it in other ways. I'm asking more for others that don't and might benefit from an easier method.

Run input setup for OEM, remember the max head unit volume, then redo calibration from the beginning but that time skip input setup.


----------



## 14642

Yes, it will run on the RCA inputs


----------



## quality_sound

kaigoss69 said:


> I think he was asking about _aiming_, not _positioning_.


I was as well. You have to remember the MS-8 is going to take care of a LOT of the problems that you are normally trying to fix with aiming. Plus, when they're on axis you'll have more extension and dynamics.


----------



## jf2oo6

Ok heres another question.

I would like to run a 3 way front stage, a sub, and 2 coaxials for rear fill. But that would need 9 channels. Is there anyway I can set this up?


----------



## OSN

jf2oo6 said:


> Ok heres another question.
> 
> I would like to run a 3 way front stage, a sub, and 2 coaxials for rear fill. But that would need 9 channels. Is there anyway I can set this up?


If your tweet and mid are in the same location, you can run them passive with each other. Although I wouldn't consider an MS8 unless you were doing a stout center channel.


----------



## jf2oo6

They may or may not be in the same location. I havent decided yet. The tweeter will be in the a pillar, and the mid can either be in the corner of the dash, or kick panel. 

So if I put the mid in the dash your saying have the mid and the tweeter share a channel? And just high pass the tweeter with a cap? So then the MS-8 would see it as a 2 way front? Would doing this lose any functionality of the ms8?

Also the reason I like the ms8 is because of how well it auto-tunes the system. I dont have good tuning skills so something that can do it for me would be great.


----------



## OSN

jf2oo6 said:


> They may or may not be in the same location. I havent decided yet. The tweeter will be in the a pillar, and the mid can either be in the corner of the dash, or kick panel.
> 
> So if I put the mid in the dash your saying have the mid and the tweeter share a channel? And just high pass the tweeter with a cap? So then the MS-8 would see it as a 2 way front? Would doing this lose any functionality of the ms8?
> 
> Also the reason I like the ms8 is because of how well it auto-tunes the system. I dont have good tuning skills so something that can do it for me would be great.


Well, it's debatable if you are losing functionality. I've seen in this thread to try covering the tweeter with a towel during calibrations, because it can sway the arrival time analysis for the channel. I helped someone I know set his up, and without the towel is seemed to work just fine. I would either do 3-way front with sub, no rears without logic7 or with center and rears for logic7. Logic7 requires rear and center channel, IIRC.


----------



## jf2oo6

Well center channel is not an option for me. Does that mean I cant run rears at all without the center? 

How about if I just run the front stage and sub off the MS-8, and then run the rears off deck power? The rears are only going to be there for when I have rear passengers anyway. The only reason I want to use them is because I already have the speakers. 

If I did do that would I be able to fade to front using the deck for when I want to have the rears off, without adversely affecting the MS-8?


----------



## Dangerranger

It doesn't really require rears to use Logic 7. They help for sure, but if you run a center then Logic 7 is still better than without because what it sends to the center channel is attenuated on the lefts and rights to stabilize the center image.


----------



## OSN

Dangerranger said:


> It doesn't really require rears to use Logic 7. They help for sure, but if you run a center then Logic 7 is still better than without because what it sends to the center channel is attenuated on the lefts and rights to stabilize the center image.


My understanding from Andy W's posts is that some of the signal is steered to the rear channel that would just be missing from the playback if no rear channels are used.


----------



## Dangerranger

OSN said:


> My understanding from Andy W's posts is that some of the signal is steered to the rear channel that would just be missing from the playback if no rear channels are used.


I dont think that information is eliminated from the front signal though. I think it takes side biased information that doesn't have any "center" info and applies it with a delay to the rear channels, but doesn't eliminate it from the fronts. Just modifies it and uses it to widen/deepen the soundstage.

I remember andy saying probably the best sounding implementation of MS-8 was a 3 way front with a very strong center channel using L7


----------



## subwoofery

Dangerranger said:


> I dont think that information is eliminated from the front signal though. I think it takes side biased information that doesn't have any "center" info and applies it with a delay to the rear channels, but doesn't eliminate it from the fronts. Just modifies it and uses it to widen/deepen the soundstage.
> 
> I remember andy saying probably the best sounding implementation of MS-8 was a 3 way front with a very strong center channel using L7


Out of phase informations are steered to the rear. Therefore, using Logic 7 without rears, some informations will be missing from the playback. 
Not sure how if the MS-8 changes that if no rears are in use but if it doesn't, then you'll be missing quite a bit... 

Kelvin


----------



## Hernan

subwoofery said:


> Out of phase informations are steered to the rear. Therefore, using Logic 7 without rears, some informations will be missing from the playback.
> Not sure how if the MS-8 changes that if no rears are in use but if it doesn't, then you'll be missing quite a bit...
> 
> Kelvin


The processor steers the signal to the active channels only. If you don't configure side outputs using center, you still have all the signal, no stering to the sides or rears.


----------



## Dangerranger

Hernan said:


> The processor steers the signal to the active channels only. If you don't configure side outputs using center, you still have all the signal, no stering to the sides or rears.


Yep. Forgot to mention that. Setup with a center or sides or rears and disconnect one and the sound will be pretty screwy and you will miss out on a lot. 

The processor is not a dummy


----------



## 14642

OSN said:


> My understanding from Andy W's posts is that some of the signal is steered to the rear channel that would just be missing from the playback if no rear channels are used.


Correct. Just install a pair of rear speakers.


----------



## Hernan

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Correct. Just install a pair of rear speakers.


Even if the side and rear outputs are configured as none?

So L7 always process the signal as 5.1 channels?


----------



## AWC

t3sn4f2 said:


> No problem
> 
> I think the real meat and potatoes of the thread has been reposted and expended on in the post covering from the beginning of this year till a month or so ago. You should find all you need in that area. There are also some newer tip, request, issues, and review threads floating around.


After a little searching, I see SEVERAL MS8 threads. I see review threads, tips and tricks threads, complaints about horn threads and you can pick any number of "center channel" threads.

What I don't see is a "this is best" thread. I suppose it is in this thread, somewhere. Fortunately I've kept up with Andy's posts for a while and have a good idea of what he thinks is best for this processor. 

So Andy, if we hack open this processor to use your proposed digital input mod, will this void our warantee? Is there a thread that deals with this subject specifically?


----------



## jf2oo6

AWC said:


> After a little searching, I see SEVERAL MS8 threads. I see review threads, tips and tricks threads, complaints about horn threads and you can pick any number of "center channel" threads.
> 
> *What I don't see is a "this is best" thread*. I suppose it is in this thread, somewhere. Fortunately I've kept up with Andy's posts for a while and have a *good idea of what he thinks is best for this processor.*


I am interested in what this is? 

I have 2 options if I go with an MS-8.
1st option: run a 3way front, with 1 sub using 7 channels.

2nd option: same 3way speakers only set up in the MS-8 as a 2 way using passives (mid and tweeter share a MS-8 channel), 1 sub, and then 2 rear fill coaxials.

I am having a hard time deciding which of these 2 setups would sound better. What do you guys think would be best.


----------



## subwoofery

Option 2 

Kelvin


----------



## MikeF

AWC said:


> What I don't see is a "this is best" thread. I suppose it is in this thread, somewhere. Fortunately I've kept up with Andy's posts for a while and have a good idea of what he thinks is best for this processor.


+1 for this suggestion. Maybe a thread "Andy's/Adam's best tips" going from basic (I guess the manual here) configuration to/thru advanced tips to highlight certain features - some of which may have universal application ... some of which may be issue specific. 

I've just recently had mine installed, and I'm not fully realizing the width and (especially the) depth I was led to believe was created by this unit, although this may be somewhat source specific. I've overcome the extreme right-side center-image by over/under positioning the "look at the outer mirrors" during the acoustical measurement stages to a degree, but I'm starting to realize some commonality between the driver/passenger/front positions of the MS-8 and the listener position choices available from the DEQ-9200 I had in my M3 system ... with the passenger setting seemingly positioning the center more toward the center than the driver position does. I also just had the tweets added to the rears (Focal 165 KRs) which my installer originally did not put in (although to his credit he did pre-position the x-over for futre enhancement), but the Logic 7 ON seems to bring everything up front. The receipt and utilization of the calibration disc seems to have helped some, but I'm still left wondering.


----------



## jf2oo6

MikeF said:


> +1 for this suggestion. Maybe a thread "Andy's/Adam's best tips" going from basic (I guess the manual here) configuration to/thru advanced tips to highlight certain features - some of which may have universal application ... some of which may be issue specific.
> 
> I've just recently had mine installed, and I'm not fully realizing the width and (especially the) depth I was led to believe was created by this unit, although this may be somewhat source specific. I've overcome the extreme right-side center-image by over/under positioning the "look at the outer mirrors" during the acoustical measurement stages to a degree, but I'm starting to realize some commonality between the driver/passenger/front positions of the MS-8 and the listener position choices available from the DEQ-9200 I had in my M3 system ... with the passenger setting seemingly positioning the center more toward the center than the driver position does. I also just had the tweets added to the rears (Focal 165 KRs) which my installer originally did not put in (although to his credit he did pre-position the x-over for futre enhancement), but the Logic 7 ON seems to bring everything up front. The receipt and utilization of the calibration disc seems to have helped some, but I'm still left wondering.


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-8-tips-tricks-thread.html?highlight=jbl+ms-8

You might wanna check out that thread man. There is some little tricks in there to try and get a more centered stage.


----------



## MikeF

Bookmarked! Thanks for the lead!


----------



## 14642

MikeF said:


> +1 for this suggestion. Maybe a thread "Andy's/Adam's best tips" going from basic (I guess the manual here) configuration to/thru advanced tips to highlight certain features - some of which may have universal application ... some of which may be issue specific.
> 
> I've just recently had mine installed, and I'm not fully realizing the width and (especially the) depth I was led to believe was created by this unit, although this may be somewhat source specific. I've overcome the extreme right-side center-image by over/under positioning the "look at the outer mirrors" during the acoustical measurement stages to a degree, but I'm starting to realize some commonality between the driver/passenger/front positions of the MS-8 and the listener position choices available from the DEQ-9200 I had in my M3 system ... with the passenger setting seemingly positioning the center more toward the center than the driver position does. I also just had the tweets added to the rears (Focal 165 KRs) which my installer originally did not put in (although to his credit he did pre-position the x-over for futre enhancement), but the Logic 7 ON seems to bring everything up front. The receipt and utilization of the calibration disc seems to have helped some, but I'm still left wondering.


MikeF,
The calibration disc is ONLY for input setup. If you're not using a factory head unit, you don't need it. If you're having trouble getting a good center image, the sweeps are most likely too loud. If MS-8 is powering the speakers, start with the MS-8 volume at -20. If you have additional amps, start at -30. If you have a sub connected to an additional amp, turn the gain down. If you're worried that the sweeps aren't loud enough, then that's about the right level--especially the sub.

The first set of sweeps set the time alignment and the last three set the EQ. Time alignment mostly determines the center image position, but bad EQ can screw it up too. Try acoustic calibration again. Just do the driver's seat to start, until you find the right level for the MS-8 volume control.


----------



## MikeF

Andy -

Appreciate the insight. I am using the factory HU and you may recall fm a pm I sent you the original inputs to the MS-8 were hi-level spkr (with RCA's connectors) into the Low Level Inputs - not the correct approach. This was addressed last Friday, but when we ran the Acoustical Measurement, the first thing I noticed before and after was the noise floor was just too high - still noticeable during playing of any CD. According to my installer, everything started coming up OK, OK, OK with the volumn around 27/28 (out of a max of 40) on my HU, leaving the MS-8 volumn control in the -teen to -20 range for comfortable listening. To clear the noise floor, adjustments were made to the gains on the amp (I'm relatively certain I shouldn't be hearing the noise floor, right?). Sounds like I need to re-run the calibration as you've indicated, but what should be the starting position for the gains on the amps? I've just reviewed the manual and can't find any recommendations for initial amp gain settings. Do appreciate your taking the time to address these issues. One other question ... my understanding is that by re-running the calibration disc, you have to re-set all the x-overs/slopes/etc. I'm not seeing anything in the manual which allows you to call up a menu which displays these values after they were entered (important if you weren't there to document the settings). Does this exist somewhere, or might it be something that could benefit from a software update - maybe a 'settings recall' on the menu?

One other thing ... I don't know if anybody else has noticed this, but my West Coast education tells me that the recording processes should have improved as the decades have passed. Therefore (using the XM decade stations as a reference), the 90's imaging (based on latest multi-track/recording technologies) should be marginally better than 80's imaging, which should be better than 70's, on down the line. Has anybody noticed how the songs from the 50's (such as the Fleetwoods/Coasters/girl groups/any balladiers) seem to have a better overall stage filling presence than the decades that follow until you get into some of the latter offerings? Doubt the 50's used anything other than 2 track recordings, but by comparison the 60's/70's/80's generally sound flatter? Just an observation.


----------



## Hernan

MikeF said:


> Andy -
> 
> 
> One other thing ... I don't know if anybody else has noticed this, but my West Coast education tells me that the recording processes should have improved as the decades have passed. Therefore (using the XM decade stations as a reference), the 90's imaging (based on latest multi-track/recording technologies) should be marginally better than 80's imaging, which should be better than 70's, on down the line. Has anybody noticed how the songs from the 50's (such as the Fleetwoods/Coasters/girl groups/any balladiers) seem to have a better overall stage filling presence than the decades that follow until you get into some of the latter offerings? Doubt the 50's used anything other than 2 track recordings, but by comparison the 60's/70's/80's generally sound flatter? Just an observation.


Everytime recording tecnology changes, things go south. After a pair of year the quality cames back. 
Mid-fi and radio pushes the producers to the infamus loudness war.
Still, some styles as Jazz are more consistent at its recording quality.
In the 70s and 80s, you found some wild use of the pan control. I like it.
One very interesting record, a must have, is Innervisions by Steavie Wonder.
Circa 72, is one of the first albums recorded by just one person, himsef.
The original sounds GOOOD.
Other master piece is Blow by Blow, Jeff Beck. 
Enjoy!


----------



## michaelsil1

Hernan said:


> Everytime recording tecnology changes, things go south. After a pair of year the quality cames back.
> Mid-fi and radio pushes the producers to the infamus loudness war.
> Still, some styles as Jazz are more consistent at its recording quality.
> In the 70s and 80s, you found some wild use of the pan control. I like it.
> One very interesting record, a must have, is Innervisions by Steavie Wonder.
> Circa 72, is one of the first albums recorded by just one person, himsef.
> The original sounds GOOOD.
> Other master piece is Blow by Blow, Jeff Beck.
> Enjoy!


You forgot Classical Music the recording quality is usually top notch and is very consistent.


----------



## Hernan

michaelsil1 said:


> You forgot Classical Music the recording quality is usually top notch and is very consistent.


Don't you consider the named albums as classical...

Sorry... ha ha. I have a childhood trauma with classical music!


----------



## kkant

A bit of the old ultra violence?


----------



## Hernan

kkant said:


> A bit of the old ultra violence?


I still love the 9th...


----------



## billymonter

michaelsil1 said:


> You forgot Classical Music the recording quality is usually top notch and is very consistent.


Over many years of purchasing classical music I have found that there is a lot of crap out there. If buying make sure that you research the performer and the label. Bottom line if you don't know the label Don't buy it!! My 2 cents.


----------



## mitchyz250f

I have been trying to setup my MS-8, but all I get from the display is 'Please wait"?

Any suggestions?


----------



## subwoofery

mitchyz250f said:


> I have been trying to setup my MS-8, but all I get from the display is 'Please wait"?
> 
> Any suggestions?


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-8-tips-tricks-thread.html?highlight=jbl+ms-8 

Kelvin


----------



## chauss

billymonter said:


> Over many years of purchasing classical music I have found that there is a lot of crap out there. If buying make sure that you research the performer and the label. Bottom line if you don't know the label Don't buy it!! My 2 cents.


Anything recorded by Telarc is first rate....hard to find, but worth the effort.


----------



## billymonter

Agreed on Telarc. London, Deutsche Gramophone, and Erato, are others.


----------



## n_olympios

Chesky, Sheffield Labs, and some by Verve.

Edit: I also wrote about Red Rose Music (Mark Levinson's label), but they've only got a few non-hybrid SACD's and no regular cd's.


----------



## matt1212

Im having some problems with my newly installed ms-8. I ran my crossover setup and when the screen said connect the microphones, i started my car so the amps didnt drain the battery. I forgot that this restarted the headunit and in turn restarted the ms-8. When it restarted it just said please wait on the screen and never went away. I reset it because it never went away. When it came back on it shut off after 15 seconds, nothing on the screen. Idk but it keeps doing it everytime I reset the unit. Also tried disconnecting power and remote...someone please help


----------



## subwoofery

subwoofery said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-8-tips-tricks-thread.html?highlight=jbl+ms-8
> 
> Kelvin


There you go. 

Kelvin


----------



## matt1212

Andy

Could you please take a look at the problem Ive been having with my unit? I need to know if it can be fixed or if i need to send it in..

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/no-question-dumb-forum/92603-ms-8-turns-then-shuts-off.html


----------



## sniper5431

I just replaced my DSP6 and installed the MS-8.Things seem to be working well after a small learning curve. One thing I notice is that the volume control stops controlling actual volume some times. I end up having to switch to head unit volume control. This a common issue? When I cycle the unit on and off control returns. Any ideas?


----------



## t3sn4f2

sniper5431 said:


> I just replaced my DSP6 and installed the MS-8.Things seem to be working well after a small learning curve. One thing I notice is that the volume control stops controlling actual volume some times. I end up having to switch to head unit volume control. This a common issue? When I cycle the unit on and off control returns. Any ideas?


Remote control battery?


----------



## sniper5431

I assume that is not the case. The volume appears to be increasing and decreasing on the screen or HMI. Just the sound does not increase or decrease in level. It is random. Sometimes it works for awhile then stops controlling the volume. I then need turn down the volume on the dial of my head unit.


----------



## AWC

Is there a way to purchase this programming to apply this same processing through a carpc set-up? I know there are alot of room correction downloads, but most aren't music and none are for cars. I'm not sure how I'll feal about HT Auto-tuning to utilize the center speaker for "SQ" purposes instead of surround.


----------



## t3sn4f2

AWC said:


> Is there a way to purchase this programming to apply this same processing through a carpc set-up? I know there are alot of room correction downloads, but most aren't music and none are for cars. I'm not sure how I'll feal about HT Auto-tuning to utilize the center speaker for "SQ" purposes instead of surround.


Nope, not for the MS-8's Logic7 or autoEQ.


----------



## jperryss

Hi all! Considering upgrading to an MS8 and have a few questions:

1. Right now I'm running my stock front speaker leads into a pair of RCA plugs, which are connected to the input jacks of an AC DQX (as balanced input). If I were to replace the DQX with the MS8, would I be able to plug those RCAs right into the input plugs of the MS8, or would that not be recommended? I know the thing takes a speaker-level input but if I can just use the plugs I'd prefer to go that route.

2. Is the MS8 display (particularly its volume control) required after the initial setup? Who here has set the volume to a certain level on the MS8 and used only the stock headunit to control the volume after that? If so, anything I should be aware of if I go that route? Can the display just be unplugged and stashed away at that point?

3. I'm currently running stock rear speakers off of the stock HU and have them mostly faded off (I like having a little rear-fill). Is it worth upgrading them to a decent set of coaxials and running them off of the MS8's internal amp, to take advantage of the fancy surround processing it's capable of?

Thanks!


----------



## 14642

It would be best to cut the plugs off and use the speaker level input harness. The input sensitivity of those connections are designed specifically for this job. The RCAs have a higher sensitivity for preamp signals. 

The MS-8 is just right for the rest of your requirements.


----------



## rain27

From everything I've heard, it seems that using a center and rears is universally preferred over a standard 2 way or 3 way set up. Is there anyone who actually prefers the sound without a center and rears using the MS-8?


----------



## 14642

Rears are really helpful. Center provides good imaging in all seats at the same time.


----------



## mitchyz250f

Andy, two questions:
-Sometimes tweeters facing up at the windshield in the OEM positons can sound harsh. Does the MS-8 have any affect on this.
-All things being equal does the center require 2x the power of the sides?


----------



## rain27

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Rears are really helpful. Center provides good imaging in all seats at the same time.


Andy, does the center channel add more midbass, assuming you are using a driver that can play around 80hz?


----------



## 14642

Logic 7 steers the entire signal to the left, right and center speakers. Bass below the center channel's crossover frequency is sent to the right and left speakers and bass below the right and left speakers' crossover frequency is sent to the sub. You can use a small center speaker, but it's important to cross it over in a range where it still provides god output, because the bass management depends on the crossover frequency you select. 

Put the biggest speaker you can get in the dash for your center, but it MUST include a tweeter and a midrange. Installing ONLY a tweeter in the center is a mistake. Someone will chime in here and tell you that a "widebander" is a good idea. It's easier, but the "no tweeter necessary" pitch for wide-band midranges is marketing hooey.


----------



## rain27

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Logic 7 steers the entire signal to the left, right and center speakers. Bass below the center channel's crossover frequency is sent to the right and left speakers and bass below the right and left speakers' crossover frequency is sent to the sub. You can use a small center speaker, but it's important to cross it over in a range where it still provides god output, because the bass management depends on the crossover frequency you select.
> 
> Put the biggest speaker you can get in the dash for your center, but it MUST include a tweeter and a midrange. Installing ONLY a tweeter in the center is a mistake. Someone will chime in here and tell you that a "widebander" is a good idea. It's easier, but the "no tweeter necessary" pitch for wide-band midranges is marketing hooey.


Andy, would you therefore always recommend using a tweeter in a 2-way system rather than a 3 inch full range in place of a tweeter? I was thinking of using wide banders in the a-pillars to bring the vocals up high. The idea here being that I would not have to use a passive crossover for a 3-way.


----------



## 14642

Yes. there is no such thing as a fullrange 3" if off axis response is important. In a car, it's important because there ar so many reflecting surfaces. For near field listening in a room (say, while you're sitting in front of a PC), where on-axis sound dominates by a wide margin, then you can get away with not having a tweeter.

Someone will do their best to refute this, but they'll be wrong.


----------



## Dangerranger

yeah I can vouch for that. I've tried it with my Peerless 830985s and they're not the worst off axis, but the difference is noticeable.

I'm looking into Morel Integra 4" for a center channel. Maybe after I get them I'll sell the other one halfsies so someone else can have one 

On that note, Andy, my factory tweeter location is in the dashboard, deep, right below the windshield. Not very wide, the left tweeter is about in line with my left ear probably. I don't have sail panels in the doors from the factory, but could flush mount a tweeter upfiring on the door panel, which vertically is about in line with the steering wheel. For front l/r, what would you consider more important, width, height, or depth? In other words, will my soundstage seem "closer" to me and lower for extreme l/r signals? Would mounting tweeter in door give me a much wider soundstage you think? where I'd mount it'd be probably 2" from the side glass.


----------



## avpman

MikeF said:


> Andy -
> 
> Appreciate the insight. I am using the factory HU and you may recall fm a pm I sent you the original inputs to the MS-8 were hi-level spkr (with RCA's connectors) into the Low Level Inputs - not the correct approach. This was addressed last Friday, but when we ran the Acoustical Measurement, the first thing I noticed before and after was the noise floor was just too high - still noticeable during playing of any CD. According to my installer, everything started coming up OK, OK, OK with the volumn around 27/28 (out of a max of 40) on my HU, leaving the MS-8 volumn control in the -teen to -20 range for comfortable listening. To clear the noise floor, adjustments were made to the gains on the amp (I'm relatively certain I shouldn't be hearing the noise floor, right?). Sounds like I need to re-run the calibration as you've indicated, but what should be the starting position for the gains on the amps? I've just reviewed the manual and can't find any recommendations for initial amp gain settings. Do appreciate your taking the time to address these issues. One other question ... my understanding is that by re-running the calibration disc, you have to re-set all the x-overs/slopes/etc. I'm not seeing anything in the manual which allows you to call up a menu which displays these values after they were entered (important if you weren't there to document the settings). Does this exist somewhere, or might it be something that could benefit from a software update - maybe a 'settings recall' on the menu?
> 
> One other thing ... I don't know if anybody else has noticed this, but my West Coast education tells me that the recording processes should have improved as the decades have passed. Therefore (using the XM decade stations as a reference), the 90's imaging (based on latest multi-track/recording technologies) should be marginally better than 80's imaging, which should be better than 70's, on down the line. Has anybody noticed how the songs from the 50's (such as the Fleetwoods/Coasters/girl groups/any balladiers) seem to have a better overall stage filling presence than the decades that follow until you get into some of the latter offerings? Doubt the 50's used anything other than 2 track recordings, but by comparison the 60's/70's/80's generally sound flatter? Just an observation.


"Recall or Display settings" would be a VERY desirable option to have. Also the ability to run the pink noise test w/o having to go through the entire setup again.


----------



## avpman

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MikeF,
> The calibration disc is ONLY for input setup. If you're not using a factory head unit, you don't need it. If you're having trouble getting a good center image, the sweeps are most likely too loud. If MS-8 is powering the speakers, start with the MS-8 volume at -20. If you have additional amps, start at -30. If you have a sub connected to an additional amp, turn the gain down. If you're worried that the sweeps aren't loud enough, then that's about the right level--especially the sub.
> 
> The first set of sweeps set the time alignment and the last three set the EQ. Time alignment mostly determines the center image position, but bad EQ can screw it up too. Try acoustic calibration again. Just do the driver's seat to start, until you find the right level for the MS-8 volume control.


Sorry but I'm confused (my normal state) by "The calibration disc is ONLY for input setup. If you're not using a factory head unit, you don't need it." I'm using a factory unit and tapped the low level signals (RCA) from it. Not feeding the MS8 the factory HU speaker levels. So do I run Input setup or not?


----------



## matt1212

I have a question about setting my gains. Before everyone yells at me, yes I have searched.

All my amps are JL Slash and can be set with a DMM. http://mobile.jlaudio.com/pdfs/gainSetting.pdf
Im running a 2-way active off a 450/4 and the rear coaxials with a 300/4. My gains have been all the way down to break the speakers in for a few weeks, but now I want to bring the system up to full power. How can I set my gains with the MS-8? I cant play the sine wave signals JL calls for through the MS-8 because the signal is processed for what the gain was at during calibration. I cant connect the headunit right to the amps, set them and then reconnect them to the ms-8 because they have different output voltages. I would really rather not try and just set them by ear, as I dont have much experience tuning systems as you all do/first "nice" system and dont know how loud a tweeter like my Focal tn53k should play.
The only thought Ive had is that when running calibration, and the ms-8 is determining signal strength, when it determines your at a good signal strength, does this mean my input signal is equal to the maximum output voltage of the ms-8 signal? (mine occurs around level 52/62, hu is Pioneer f90bt) I think this because the maximum voltage in and voltage out are 2.8v if I'm correct, so it seems the ms-8 is attempting to match input voltage to output voltage. At volume of 0 (max) on ms-8, it should be putting out ~2.8v. If this is all true, I could plug the hu right into each amp, set the hu to level 52, play an appropriate sine wave, set the gain, reconnect to ms-8 and recalibrate. This would give me a maximum gain level for each amp before clipping. I would then back off each gain to fit the rms of the driver. I could then always leave my hu volume control at 52. That way 0 woukd be maximum volume but not be pushing anything past it's potential. Would this work?


----------



## Salami

avpman said:


> So do I run Input setup or not?


That was a typo. If you are using a factory head unit, you MUST run the CD setup.


----------



## avpman

*Benefit to weets on their own channels?*

I have a Hertz two way speaker system for my fronts (tweeter, woofer and matching crossover 3.5kHz/24db). Is there a significant benefit to putting the tweeters on their own separate amplifier channels (different from the woofers)? Or just use the supplied crossover and treat the speaker system as a one way speaker? Thank you


----------



## avpman

Salami said:


> That was a typo. If you are using a factory head unit, you MUST run the CD setup.


I am curious why it is required if a factory unit and an aftermarket HU both have low-level (RCA) outputs?


----------



## Allan74

*Re: Benefit to weets on their own channels?*



avpman said:


> I have a Hertz two way speaker system for my fronts (tweeter, woofer and matching crossover 3.5kHz/24db)


Which Hertz 2-way setup do you have that offers 24db/oct passives @ 3500hz ?


----------



## jperryss

avpman said:


> I am curious why it is required if a factory unit and an aftermarket HU both have low-level (RCA) outputs?


Many factory headunits have built-in EQ'ing done to get the most out of the typical crappy speakers that come with a factory stereo. I think the idea is to 'flatten' out the stock signal (think JL CleanSweep) before tuning.

An aftermarket unit would typically output much closer to a flat signal.


----------



## avpman

*Re: Benefit to weets on their own channels?*



Allan74 said:


> Which Hertz 2-way setup do you have that offers 24db/oct passives @ 3500hz ?


Correction, it is 3200hz 12/12 db http://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/Doc/Hertz_HiEnergy_HSK165.pdf


----------



## chauss

I think it is 3250 to be exact... lol - unless they changed the newer model-


----------



## avpman

Is there a way to get back into the Output Diagnostics (Pink Noise) test menu without having to go through the entire setup routine again?

Thank you


----------



## avpman

jperryss said:


> Many factory headunits have built-in EQ'ing done to get the most out of the typical crappy speakers that come with a factory stereo. I think the idea is to 'flatten' out the stock signal (think JL CleanSweep) before tuning.
> 
> An aftermarket unit would typically output much closer to a flat signal.


Ahhh - that makes perfect sense. Thank you.


----------



## avpman

*Re: Benefit to Tweets on their own channels?*



avpman said:


> I have a Hertz two way speaker system for my fronts (tweeter, woofer and matching crossover 3.5kHz/24db). Is there a significant benefit to putting the tweeters on their own separate amplifier channels (different from the woofers)? Or just use the supplied crossover and treat the speaker system as a one way speaker? Thank you


If anyone is interested here is the answer I received from JBL:

The benefit is in time alignment. If you have the woofer in the lower section of the door and the tweeter in the dash, or anything like that, these two components reach your ears at slightly different times creating a phase issue. By putting the woofer and tweeter on separate channels the MS8 can time align the two so that they both reach your ears at exactly the same time, giving a much better sound stage.

And if you are using the internal MS8 amps:

You would double the power being sent to the speaker. Instead of a total of 18 watts to the woofer and tweeter, to be split between the two, you will send 18 watts to each one, or 36 watts total.


----------



## Dangerranger

*Re: Benefit to Tweets on their own channels?*



avpman said:


> You would double the power being sent to the speaker. Instead of a total of 18 watts to the woofer and tweeter, to be split between the two, you will send 18 watts to each one, or 36 watts total.



You'd still have 18 per driver if it were on one channel. Power won't be any different. It doesn't split when you have two drivers on one channel, the drivers just take over within their dedicated frequency range.


----------



## n_olympios

That, and the tweeter will probably never see (or need) the full 18 watts.


----------



## AWC

Andy,

I'm thinking of buying the MS8 and have it stripped down and rebuilt. I though about doing the digital mod so it can use a SPIDF connection, upgrading DACs, removing the amps and basically melding it with Sinfoni Preamps. Would you be willing to share the wiring diagrams with Matt R, and do you think this is possible. I just want to use the MS8 processing, with high end componentry for the rest. I appreciate it


----------



## jperryss

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> It would be best to cut the plugs off and use the speaker level input harness. The input sensitivity of those connections are designed specifically for this job. The RCAs have a higher sensitivity for preamp signals.
> 
> The MS-8 is just right for the rest of your requirements.


Thanks Andrew! I'll either cut the cables or make a set of RCA-jacks-to-bare-wire to just plug onto the end of the existing plugs.


Could anyone share their input on these other items?

1. Is the MS8 display (particularly its volume control) required after the initial setup? Who here has set the volume to a certain level on the MS8 and used only the stock headunit to control the volume after that? If so, anything I should be aware of if I go that route? Can I just connect the display when I need to 'tweak' and leave it out otherwise?

2. I plan on running the rears off of the MS8's internal amp, everything else (2-way front, plus a sub) will be externally amped. The MS8 will have no problem with this, right?

3. My car's stock setup is 4-channel. I was planning on running just two channel speaker leads (front L/R) into the MS8. Is there any benefit in running the rear speaker leads into the MS8 also? It looks like it will take 8-channels total input, but I will only use two if that is all I need.

Thanks!


----------



## rain27

You can use your volume control on your head unit only, yes. You just set the MS-8 volume to -6 and leave it, per the manual.


----------



## PhatGen10

Hello Gentleman, I'm a nu-b here as you can see. I recently purchased the following and have it installed in my Genesis Coupe.

MS-8
Hertz MLK 6.5
CDT (2 ohm) 6.5's for rear fill
3.5 inch infinitiy 2 way for center
JBL GTO 1004 (bi-amped tweets & mids)
JBL GT0 7001 (running at 2 ohms)
2 - IDQ10's (dual 2 ohm)

It took me a while to get everything set up the way I wanted but finally got things running. Still have some work to do as far as finishing the cover for the lifted floor in the trunk for the amps, ms8 and power distribution but that will come. 

My questions is - I turned everything on and ran through the initial setup and levels are picking up fine. As I go through the rest of the prompts and identifying what type of speakers I have for each location and I get to the "side" and it states "none" even though I have my CDT 6.5's hooked up????

I'm running them on channel 6&7 and have nothing else assigned to those outputs. Has anyone had a problem with the rear speakers not getting picked up by the MS-8? I have read over 100 pages (some twice) and could not find anything on the subject. I checked my connections to the speakers and unplugged and replugged the ms-8 output plug but no dice. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Steve


----------



## avpman

PhatGen10 said:


> Hello Gentleman, I'm a nu-b here as you can see. I recently purchased the following and have it installed in my Genesis Coupe.
> 
> MS-8
> Hertz MLK 6.5
> CDT (2 ohm) 6.5's for rear fill
> 3.5 inch infinitiy 2 way for center
> JBL GTO 1004 (bi-amped tweets & mids)
> JBL GT0 7001 (running at 2 ohms)
> 2 - IDQ10's (dual 2 ohm)
> 
> It took me a while to get everything set up the way I wanted but finally got things running. Still have some work to do as far as finishing the cover for the lifted floor in the trunk for the amps, ms8 and power distribution but that will come.
> 
> My questions is - I turned everything on and ran through the initial setup and levels are picking up fine. As I go through the rest of the prompts and identifying what type of speakers I have for each location and I get to the "side" and it states "none" even though I have my CDT 6.5's hooked up????
> 
> I'm running them on channel 6&7 and have nothing else assigned to those outputs. Has anyone had a problem with the rear speakers not getting picked up by the MS-8? I have read over 100 pages (some twice) and could not find anything on the subject. I checked my connections to the speakers and unplugged and replugged the ms-8 output plug but no dice. Any help is greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Steve


Right below where it says None - does it say "1 - Way"?


----------



## PhatGen10

Nope, that's the problem, no other choices. Not even if I go to "rear" but that wasn't surprising. I got 2ohm speakers hoping to use the extra power of the ms-8 for the rears so it wouldn't bring down the power so much of my fronts but I have to wonder is it not "seeing" my speakers because it's only a 2 ohm load and not 4? Not sure if that's even a good question but I'm racking my brain here to understand.


----------



## avpman

PhatGen10 said:


> Nope, that's the problem, no other choices. Not even if I go to "rear" but that wasn't surprising. I got 2ohm speakers hoping to use the extra power of the ms-8 for the rears so it wouldn't bring down the power so much of my fronts but I have to wonder is it not "seeing" my speakers because it's only a 2 ohm load and not 4? Not sure if that's even a good question but I'm racking my brain here to understand.


I've set it up without all the speakers connected before (although it won't let me past the Acoustic Calibration when I did that). Try disconnecting the rear (side) speakers and see if you can then assign them to the channel. Maybe 2 ohms is too low and the MC thinks there's a short on the channel.

The only other thing I can suggest is to reset the unit to factory defaults (in the menu) and then physically rest it by sticking a paper clip in the tiny "reset" hole. If that doesn't work then go the the JBL support site and submit a support inquiry. They are VERY responsive.

Good luck. Let us know how it works out for you.


----------



## PhatGen10

I totally forgot about the reset button! Ok, I'll try to do that and if that doesn't work I'll try to do without any outputs hooked up like you said. I'll let you know what happens. Thanks for the reminder of the old "reset".


----------



## Salami

PhatGen10 said:


> Has anyone had a problem with the rear speakers not getting picked up by the MS-8? I have read over 100 pages (some twice) and could not find anything on the subject.
> Thanks,
> 
> Steve


I can't remember the details but if you only have one pair in the back you must pick the proper term. 

Check the manual on the CD.

If you have only one pair of speakers in the back it tells you you must pick the side or rear when setting up the outputs. I think it says to use side if you only have one pair but it may have been rear. You don't have a choice between side or rear, you must use what the manual says.


----------



## PhatGen10

Well, disconnected speaker outputs and no luck. Also tried reset and no luck. :mean:

Yes, the manual says if you only have rears and no sides then assign them to the sides. This is what I'm trying to do but it says "none". I'm stumped. I guess I just expected it to work if I followed the directions. :laugh:


----------



## PhatGen10

Ok, decided to start from the beginning and re-read the manual. I noticed I was picking 2-way for my center thinking (2-way speaker) but you are only picking the # of channels that drive that speaker by the ms-8. So, my thought was that if the system is using 2 channels like i said for the center channel it only leaves me one channel left and thus the ms-8 is saying you can't have sides because you only have 1 channel left (not two). So, I went back in the car, picked 1 way for center and shazam.......it now allowes me to pick my sides. Feel way better now and thank everyone for their troubleshooting ideas. Now, once I get my re-coil kit from Image Dynamics for my sub that was bad I will be able to test everything out. Can't wait and I'll try to post up some pics etc of the install. Sure would have been a lot easier if the ms-8 would have said "look dummy, you don't have enough channels remaining for the rear". :laugh:


----------



## Dangerranger

yep was about to say sounds like you've either got the channel tied up via center being 2 way or setting up as two subs.


----------



## urugs

I have a BMW 535i (E60, 2008 model) sedan that I just purchased. It has come with the standard hi-fi (no logic7, iDrive/Nav/iPod). I am thinking of upgrading the system as follows - 
1. Front - Hybrid Ovation 4" (mid + tweeter) * 2 (L&R)
2. Rear - Same as front * 2 (L&R)
3. Earthquake SWS-8 subwoofer * 2 (L&R)

I will keep the factory head-unit and plan to connect it to the high-level input of the MS-8. I am going to be using the JL Audio 900/5 as my amplifier and use the MS-8 for sound processing only. Some newbie questions for you -

1. How many channels should I devote to the above configuration and how should they be assigned? I was thinking of using 6 channels (2 front, 2 rear and 2 for the subs) - BUT the MS-8 only supports 1-way for the rear? The JL accepts 2 front, 2 rear and 2 for the subs.
2. I also need help in figuring out the ideal cross-over filter freq and subsonic slope settings for the above speakers. Looking at the morehifi site, I am assuming I should go with a 6db slope (although MS-8 recommends 24db)?
3. Apart from the usual precautions to avoid picking up noise (gnd etc.), do I need to turn down the gains on the JL 900/5 to avoid any hiss?

Help much appreciated.


----------



## kaigoss69

urugs said:


> I have a BMW 535i (E60, 2008 model) sedan that I just purchased. It has come with the standard hi-fi (no logic7, iDrive/Nav/iPod). I am thinking of upgrading the system as follows -
> 1. Front - Hybrid Ovation 4" (mid + tweeter) * 2 (L&R)
> 2. Rear - Same as front * 2 (L&R)
> 3. Earthquake SWS-8 subwoofer * 2 (L&R)
> 
> I will keep the factory head-unit and plan to connect it to the high-level input of the MS-8. I am going to be using the JL Audio 900/5 as my amplifier and use the MS-8 for sound processing only. Some newbie questions for you -
> 
> 1. How many channels should I devote to the above configuration and how should they be assigned? I was thinking of using 6 channels (2 front, 2 rear and 2 for the subs) - BUT the MS-8 only supports 1-way for the rear? The JL accepts 2 front, 2 rear and 2 for the subs.
> 2. I also need help in figuring out the ideal cross-over filter freq and subsonic slope settings for the above speakers. Looking at the morehifi site, I am assuming I should go with a 6db slope (although MS-8 recommends 24db)?
> 3. Apart from the usual precautions to avoid picking up noise (gnd etc.), do I need to turn down the gains on the JL 900/5 to avoid any hiss?
> 
> Help much appreciated.


Morel HO in the rear is a waste of money (if all you care about is optimizing for the front of the car). Keep the stock speakers or get some coaxes. Also, you want to run the front as 2-way (HO + SWS-8) so you would need at least 6 channels of amplification. 1-way rears is all you need. Cross the HO over at 120Hz for starters, 24dB/oct. Add a center if at all possible.

Oh yeah, and contact forum member VP Electricity for the gear and for more professional advice.


----------



## Technic

urugs said:


> I have a BMW 535i (E60, 2008 model) sedan that I just purchased. It has come with the standard hi-fi (no logic7, iDrive/Nav/iPod). I am thinking of upgrading the system as follows -
> 1. Front - Hybrid Ovation 4" (mid + tweeter) * 2 (L&R)
> 2. Rear - Same as front * 2 (L&R)
> 3. Earthquake SWS-8 subwoofer * 2 (L&R)
> 
> I will keep the factory head-unit and plan to connect it to the high-level input of the MS-8. I am going to be using the JL Audio 900/5 as my amplifier and use the MS-8 for sound processing only. Some newbie questions for you -
> 
> 1. How many channels should I devote to the above configuration and how should they be assigned? I was thinking of using 6 channels *(2 front, 2 rear and 2 for the subs)* - BUT the MS-8 only supports 1-way for the rear? The JL accepts 2 front, 2 rear and 2 for the subs.


You will need 6 channels -Front 2-way and Rear 1-way. I would consider a center speaker as well, powered by the MS-8. 



> 2. I also need help in figuring out the ideal cross-over filter freq and subsonic slope settings for the above speakers. Looking at the morehifi site, I am assuming I should go with a 6db slope (although MS-8 recommends 24db)?


I would try a front 2-way with a 30Hz subsonic at 24dB and a 200Hz high pass at 6db, rear at 100Hz high pass at 24dB. If a center is added, 170Hz high pass at 24dB just to start.



> 3. Apart from the usual precautions to avoid picking up noise (gnd etc.), do I need to turn down the gains on the JL 900/5 to avoid any hiss?
> 
> Help much appreciated.


Calibrate at -45dB volume with the HD900/5 gains at minimum. Most probably you will need to raise a bit the SWS-8 channel gain after calibration to really feel the bass, and/or use the 31-band EQ to bump the midbass.

I have some E60 harnesses that can simplify the MS-8 install... PM for details.


----------



## urugs

Technic said:


> You will need 6 channels -Front 2-way and Rear 1-way. I would consider a center speaker as well, powered by the MS-8.
> 
> I would try a front 2-way with a 30Hz subsonic at 24dB and a 200Hz high pass at 6db, rear at 100Hz high pass at 24dB. If a center is added, 170Hz high pass at 24dB just to start.
> 
> Calibrate at -45dB volume with the HD900/5 gains at minimum. Most probably you will need to raise a bit the SWS-8 channel gain after calibration to really feel the bass, and/or use the 31-band EQ to bump the midbass.
> 
> I have some E60 harnesses that can simplify the MS-8 install... PM for details.


Thanks. For the front 2-way, I am assuming you mean HO (mid+tweeter) + SWS-8 would be one "set"? In that case, I would need to also install the crossover unit that came with the HO in order to get the split between the mid and the tweeter? If so, do I need to do any jumper adjustments on the crossover or keep it at the flat setting?

PM Sent.


----------



## matt1212

Does anyone know if at level 0 on the volume, if the rca voltage in is the same voltage going out? As in the ms-8 just simply lowers the output voltage as you lower the processor volume. Im trying to set my gains on my slash amps with a DMM, and was going to just plug the h/u rca out into each amp, play the test tone, and set each individually. This will only work if the ms-8 never puts out voltage any higher than the input voltage and if the output/input voltage's are identical at volume 0 (this way I would know that Im pretty close to max at h/u volume X and ms-8 volume 0). Anyone know anything? Any way to safely measure the output voltages? Thanks for the help in advance


----------



## Dangerranger

matt1212 said:


> Does anyone know if at level 0 on the volume, if the rca voltage in is the same voltage going out? As in the ms-8 just simply lowers the output voltage as you lower the processor volume. Im trying to set my gains on my slash amps with a DMM, and was going to just plug the h/u rca out into each amp, play the test tone, and set each individually. This will only work if the ms-8 never puts out voltage any higher than the input voltage and if the output/input voltage's are identical at volume 0 (this way I would know that Im pretty close to max at h/u volume X and ms-8 volume 0). Anyone know anything? Any way to safely measure the output voltages? Thanks for the help in advance


It'd be pretty hard to do after calibration just because the EQ is going to have a big effect on what output you're going to have at which frequencies. I mean the MS-8 isn't a line driver per se. But as far as what the Auto-EQ does, I don't know if it primarily cuts or boosts by frequency, a bit of both to be sure but I have no clue how much. I guess if you wanted to do the "safe" thing you could simply make a CD at whatever reference decibel level you want to set the gains off of, having different frequencies on the tracks, and just see what has the most output voltage wise, then set it off of that. I do know my MS-8 manual states that 2.8V is the maximum output voltage, so you could just set it by that, maybe a tad higher after that as music will rarely if ever truly peak the outputs.


----------



## Sptsmed

I have called myself reading this entire thread and honestly have been keeping up with it for well over a year, but have not seen my question brought up as far as particular car and potential and possible issues so here goes.

I am closed to finishing the build on my BMW M3 and am now looking at what I might can do to signifantly improve the audio in my 750IL as well. It is an E38 model and has a center speaker in the dash, 3 way front and 2 way in the rear doors and 4 six inch mids on the rear deck to try and function for a sub. It has the DSP amplifier as well.

I have speakers to replace the stock, although not sure what to do on the sub issue since I do not want a box in the trunk. My question is using the MS 08 am I going to still be able to use the DSP amplifier and keep all of the normal functions, or will the MS 08 substitute for it ? I know in the areas of EQ and everything else it is not a comparison.

My other thoughts have been to add a carputer, but I would rather be less complicated if I can. Thanks in advance for any information.


----------



## less

Hey all,

I'm seeing sooo many MS8s in the classifieds, I'm just curious what the issue is with them apparently not meeting expectations or needs. Is there any concensus about where they are working best and in which situations people seem less satisfied? 

Is it performing better for those with front - center - rear systems? That'd be logical since it seems like it was designed for that from the beginning. Still, extracting spatial information from music originally mixed to two tracks is a pretty ambitious goal. I've sat back for a while now waiting to see how this would work out... so I'm interested in hearing the results. 

JBL went all out on this and seems to have done things right - hiring - testing - communicating/feedback, etc., but its a product that is trying to do things never before done in the car audio realm. 

Any chance of a lower end version without the amps and the sound stage processing (essentially a bit one with auto tune?) in the future?


----------



## kkant

less said:


> I'm seeing sooo many MS8s in the classifieds, I'm just curious what the issue is with them apparently not meeting expectations or needs. Is there any concensus about where they are working best and in which situations people seem less satisfied?


Notice that many of them are new in the box, shrinkwrapped. I suspect at least some of those sales are people cashing in on their amazon deals. A few months ago amazon was selling these for about $440 shipped. I'm pretty sure this was a blunder on amazon's part, given their attempts to "allow" me to cancel my order because it was "delayed".


----------



## PhatGen10

Well, I finally got everything up and running yesterday and did the whole turning the gain down on my sub until after the calibration and then turned it back up which worked great. However, I still haven't set my gains yet since breaking in the speakers. Worked great and no connections problems or anything. 

Problem now is that I don't have any mid-bass in my MLK's? I am running bi-amped through my crossovers to be safe. I'm not good at tuning so that was the reason for the MS-8. I'm more mechanical. I thought since I did 2 signals and bi-amped that I would be able to pick crossover in ms-8 for both mid and tweeters but when you get to "Select Front" step 4a page 6 you only get to set one crossover point. I selected 2000Hz since I know my tweets are ok down to 1850 but now I'm thinking it cut everything below that off. Should I have set this down to like 80Hz? I thought you'd be able to set your mids at like 80Hz to 2000Hz and then tweeters from 2000Hz above. Again, tuning is not my strong suite. So confused.


----------



## PhatGen10

also I have the HPF Selected on both front/rear of my 4channel amp and not sure where to set at. They go from 32 to 320hz but it seems it doesn't affect anything. Probably because the MS8 is overriding due to my setting problem above.


----------



## vactor

*planning out my MS-8 ... comments and suggestions ...*

alright all. i have an MS-8. i plan on having a new system installed in my 2009 infiniti G37x 4 door sedan. here's my plan:

stock navi hadunit
MS-8
2 way 6.5" separates in the doors
4" coaxial in factory center channel (5" coax if i can fit it)
6.5" coaxials in rear doors
2 12" subs in trunk

i plan on running as much power as possible. i have some questions on power distribution though. i plan on running 300 watts to each mid and tweeter in the doors. should i attempt to keep the power to each speaker (doors, center, rears) as close as possible? i don't necessarily plan on blasting, but, watts are cheap, and nothing makes for a nice low noise floor and high dynamic range like LOTS of power. 

my plan is for 300 watts to the mids in the doors, 300 watts to the tweeters in the doors, 300 watts to the coax in the center, 150 watts to each coax in the rear doors, and 600 watts to each sub. would this be about right for what i am planning? what are the power considerations per channel when using an MS-8? would i lose anything by just doing a 2 way set in the doors and 2 subs and eliminating the rears and center? how about eliminating the rears and using a L C R front stage? anyhoo, i am excited about the upcoming buiold and will share the progress!!

comments suggestions?

p.s.
the factory unit also has BT phone connection. anything i should worry about or do to make that work properly? anything else to look out for when tuning? thanks!!


----------



## jperryss

Hi all,
MS8 is getting installed tomorrow.  But I'm not sure what to do with my amp gains. I saw this in the Tips & Tricks thread:
"In doubt with amplifier gain setting? Set it to 2V initially then run calibration"

The manual for my amp says the input range is 1-9v, but the gain knobs have no markings. Is my only choice to guess? I know crossover pots on amps aren't perfectly spread out (meaning if the range is 100-500hz, putting the pot right in the middle won't be 300). Are input gains the same way, or will I be okay just turning the pot to about 85% of the way up?

Thanks!


----------



## Dangerranger

PhatGen10 said:


> Well, I finally got everything up and running yesterday and did the whole turning the gain down on my sub until after the calibration and then turned it back up which worked great. However, I still haven't set my gains yet since breaking in the speakers. Worked great and no connections problems or anything.
> 
> Problem now is that I don't have any mid-bass in my MLK's? I am running bi-amped through my crossovers to be safe. I'm not good at tuning so that was the reason for the MS-8. I'm more mechanical. I thought since I did 2 signals and bi-amped that I would be able to pick crossover in ms-8 for both mid and tweeters but when you get to "Select Front" step 4a page 6 you only get to set one crossover point. I selected 2000Hz since I know my tweets are ok down to 1850 but now I'm thinking it cut everything below that off. Should I have set this down to like 80Hz? I thought you'd be able to set your mids at like 80Hz to 2000Hz and then tweeters from 2000Hz above. Again, tuning is not my strong suite. So confused.


Biamped or biwired? If both are on the same channel and you're running through crossovers then you need to set the MS-8 to whatever you want the midbass HPF to be set to. 

If you're running 2 way up front (say MS-8 channel 1 to midbass, MS-8 channel 2 to tweeter, etc) then you might as well just ditch the crossovers altogether and run active to the speakers using the MS-8's internal crossover. 

If all of that is in line, then your sweeps were probably too loud during calibration. Try turning them down a few db and see what you get, you don't want to clip the input of the mics. if you're running a fairly high power amplifier, -30 or -25 would be a good starting point.


----------



## urugs

urugs said:


> Thanks. For the front 2-way, I am assuming you mean HO (mid+tweeter) + SWS-8 would be one "set"? In that case, I would need to also install the crossover unit that came with the HO in order to get the split between the mid and the tweeter? If so, do I need to do any jumper adjustments on the crossover or keep it at the flat setting?
> 
> PM Sent.


As recommended, I installed a Morel center - without it the MS-8 with L7 processing just didn't sound right (sounded better with it switched off). Tried using the 2-way option discussed (HO+sws-8) but got the most bang for the buck by going one ways instead (with passive xovers for the Morels). Front - 1 way, Rear - 1 way, 2 subs, 1 center - total 7 channels. 6 speakers powered by the JL 900/5, the center powered by the MS-8. Night and day difference - fantastic sound, rich bass with barely any tweaking. Very happy with the overall install.


----------



## Salami

*Andy*



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> There is one other possibility, especially if you have a little sealed box and you're using a really low crossover point--if that's the case, MS-8 is trying to get rid of the HUGE peak in your response.



Andy 

I can't find the exact post but you mentioned about using the crossover in the sub amp during the sweep to help deal with the peak during the sweep. I have a small sealed enclosure and am trying to to get a crossover point between 50-65hz with little success.

Are there any other options if the amp does not have a built in crossover? Can I put and external crossover in front of the amp during the sweep or will this make it worse?

Thanks


----------



## jperryss

OK, my initial impressions. I'm running 2-way front + sub, mids are in lower door, tweeters are in sail panel area. Mid/high crossover variable, I measured a bunch of times, tried 4K, 5K, and currently at 3K (possibly a bit low for the UP6i but I'm using a 24db slope). No rears at this time but the stockers will be powered off the MS8 internal amp at some time in the very near future. L7 off.

Initial thoughts:
-Up front bass! Never heard this in a car before. Magic.
-Sub level has been all over the place, usually too high. I've messed with the sub amp gain many times, before and after calibration, and for the moment I think I've found a happy-medium (I turned the gain down slightly after calibration).
-I'm having difficulty getting a solid center image. My initial calibration was very similar to what I had before the MS8 (ie no T/A): Center was basically smeared to both sides and not even close to what I'd consider 'center'. I've tried several ideas mentioned here, including disconnecting the tweeters for step 1of4 on the calibration, shifting my head to different locations during the sweeps, and looking past the mirrors or not quite to the mirrors during the sweeps. My usual results are a wide center image, usually skewed towards the right.
-Tonality is fantastic. It's been said a bunch of times already, but it sounds better than what I accomplished with weeks of EQ'ing with my previous setup.
-I'm quite impressed with this thing so far.


----------



## 14642

*Re: Andy*



Salami said:


> Andy
> 
> I can't find the exact post but you mentioned about using the crossover in the sub amp during the sweep to help deal with the peak during the sweep. I have a small sealed enclosure and am trying to to get a crossover point between 50-65hz with little success.
> 
> Are there any other options if the amp does not have a built in crossover? Can I put and external crossover in front of the amp during the sweep or will this make it worse?
> 
> Thanks


Try this: Rather than attempting to get an actual crossover at 55 or 60Hz, try 80Hz and 24dB/octave. Once the calibration is done, use the 31-band EQ to cut frequencies between 50 and 100Hz if the bass sounds too boomy and to boost below 50Hz. You may also want to listen carefully with the subwoofer connected in reverse polarity.


----------



## dyceskynes

What is the advised powerline fuse to run on an MS-8 when using the processing only and not the amps?


----------



## 14642

The fuse at the battery just protects the car rather than the equipment. It should be chosen so that it blows before the wire melts. What size wire are you running from your battery?


----------



## quality_sound

I remember reading an article in CSR WAY back in the day that said to fuse at half the reserve capacity in Ah of your battery. I've been doing it ever since and it's always worked great.


----------



## BigRed

jperryss said:


> OK, my initial impressions. I'm running 2-way front + sub, mids are in lower door, tweeters are in sail panel area. Mid/high crossover variable, I measured a bunch of times, tried 4K, 5K, and currently at 3K (possibly a bit low for the UP6i but I'm using a 24db slope). No rears at this time but the stockers will be powered off the MS8 internal amp at some time in the very near future. L7 off.
> 
> Initial thoughts:
> -Up front bass! Never heard this in a car before. Magic.
> -Sub level has been all over the place, usually too high. I've messed with the sub amp gain many times, before and after calibration, and for the moment I think I've found a happy-medium (I turned the gain down slightly after calibration).
> -I'm having difficulty getting a solid center image. My initial calibration was very similar to what I had before the MS8 (ie no T/A): Center was basically smeared to both sides and not even close to what I'd consider 'center'. I've tried several ideas mentioned here, including disconnecting the tweeters for step 1of4 on the calibration, shifting my head to different locations during the sweeps, and looking past the mirrors or not quite to the mirrors during the sweeps. My usual results are a wide center image, usually skewed towards the right.
> -Tonality is fantastic. It's been said a bunch of times already, but it sounds better than what I accomplished with weeks of EQ'ing with my previous setup.
> -I'm quite impressed with this thing so far.


make sure the polarity of your mids are physically in phase.


----------



## dyceskynes

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The fuse at the battery just protects the car rather than the equipment. It should be chosen so that it blows before the wire melts. What size wire are you running from your battery?



I am running 4 awg with 125 amp fuse from the battery to a fused distribution block then 8 gauge from there. What size fuse should I have in the distribution block? Sorry I should have specificed more.


----------



## kaigoss69

dyceskynes said:


> I am running 4 awg with 125 amp fuse from the battery to a fused distribution block then 8 gauge from there. What size fuse should I have in the distribution block? Sorry I should have specificed more.


Same thing, the fuse is there to protect the car from a fire in case the wire is pinched and makes contact with the chassis. 20 amp will probably do to cover the MS-8 current draw, 50 amp max for 8 gauge wire. Also see here: FUSES


----------



## jperryss

BigRed said:


> make sure the polarity of your mids are physically in phase.


Good call, thanks. I will verify that when I hook up the rears.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy et al,

I am going to replace the front L,R,C OEM components in my BMW with the following:

Dynaudio MD-102 tweeters (x2) for doors 
Dynaudio MD-100 tweeter (x1) for center
Focal 4K Slim mids (x3)

Since I do not have enough channels on the MS-8 to run these active, I have the following options for crossing them over passive:

1. Use the Dyn X-252 passives. Obviously optimized for the MD102, but how would the midrange be affected by using the Focal drivers???
2. Use the Focal passives. Obviously optimized for the 4K Slim, but how would the upper range be affected by using the Dyn tweeters???
3. Use a cap on the MD-102s and MD100 and let the Focal mids roll off naturally.

Which option makes more sense?

Specs:

MD102: http://www.dynaudio.com/eng/auto/esotec/tech_md102.htm
MD100: http://www.dynaudio.com/images/auto/mobile/pdf-mobile/DYN_MD100.pdf
4K Slim: http://www.focal-fr.com/catalogue-docs/EN/14/files/1186.pdf
TN-52: http://www.focal-fr.com/catalogue-docs/EN/14/files/1187.pdf


----------



## an2ny888

question - why would the ms8 work better with a conventional 2 way separates up front, as opposed to a widebander / midbass up front? i would assume that the widebander would still have the advantage of not having a crossover in the midrange frequencies


----------



## AWC

quick question. I know the answer is in here somewhere...if I were to keep the entire front system on the passives, would I be able to run 7.1? Actual Front, Center, Sides, Rear and Subs?

All the 7.1 set-ups we've discussed have been 2-way front and 5.1 surround program. Is there a 7.1 set-up that allows the use of passive netweork for the fronts?

I'm not saying this is a good idea, just wondering if its possible...


----------



## kkant

an2ny888 said:


> question - why would the ms8 work better with a conventional 2 way separates up front, as opposed to a widebander / midbass up front? i would assume that the widebander would still have the advantage of not having a crossover in the midrange frequencies


This is a question of general audio principles, not just the ms8. There are a couple problems with "widebanders". They have poor high frequency response. They have poor hf dispersion. And they are played well past their cone breakup range-- this will amplify the effects of the speaker's natural nonlinear distortion.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

I've got a question, not sure if it's been covered here but.... does the MS-8 make integrated head unit processing superfluous? I need a new head unit, and am also planning to buy a MS-8 shortly after the holidays. I am browsing head units and trying to find one that will be a good match for the MS-8. I don't want to waste money on features that will be redundant....


----------



## kkant

AWC said:


> quick question. I know the answer is in here somewhere...if I were to keep the entire front system on the passives, would I be able to run 7.1? Actual Front, Center, Sides, Rear and Subs?


Yes.


----------



## kkant

bd5034 said:


> I've got a question, not sure if it's been covered here but.... does the MS-8 make integrated head unit processing superfluous?


Yes.


----------



## t3sn4f2

kkant said:


> Yes.


And also a recommended no no.


----------



## jperryss

BigRed said:


> make sure the polarity of your mids are physically in phase.


Turns out my driver's side mid was wired in reverse polarity. Must've been careless one of the last times I put the door back together.

I'm still having a similar issue as before with the center image. It actually seems a bit more centered now, not shifted towards either side of the car, but it's WIDE. It sounds like it's emanating from the entire width of the top of the dash. 
Again, I'm not running a center and unfortunately it's not a route I'm willing to take. I do plan on hooking up the rears and trying L7 to see if it improves imaging at all, just not sure if I want to try it with the factory speakers or throw a set of decent coaxes back there first.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

ok, - to KKANT and T3SN4F2

my next question is - what options would actually be desirable in a head unit then?
besides playing cds and radio stations, what else is the head unit needed for?
to take it one step further - is it actually needed at all? could the MS-8 be run as a stand-alone unit, taking input from a mp3 player or smart phone? 

P.S. if this has already been covered in the thread then you can just direct me to the page


----------



## Dangerranger

bd5034 said:


> ok, - to KKANT and T3SN4F2
> 
> my next question is - what options would actually be desirable in a head unit then?
> besides playing cds and radio stations, what else is the head unit needed for?
> to take it one step further - is it actually needed at all? could the MS-8 be run as a stand-alone unit, taking input from a mp3 player or smart phone?
> 
> P.S. if this has already been covered in the thread then you can just direct me to the page


You don't need an aftermarket head unit. Realistically, the high level inputs (speaker level) are not a bad thing to use (actually, they're balanced so they're BETTER than RCAs in terms of noise rejection) If your factory head unit does all you ask of it, there's no need to abandon it. And yes, it will take input from an MP3 player or smart phone via the aux input.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

Dangerranger said:


> You don't need an aftermarket head unit. Realistically, the high level inputs (speaker level) are not a bad thing to use (actually, they're balanced so they're BETTER than RCAs in terms of noise rejection) If your factory head unit does all you ask of it, there's no need to abandon it. And yes, it will take input from an MP3 player or smart phone via the aux input.


I have been using an aftermarket one for some time, the reason I'm in need of a new one is that the one I'm currently using is over 10 years old and the motorized face is broken, plus it makes strange noises from time to time. 

I'm wondering whether I should just get the MS-8 and not buy a head unit at all... Either that, or buy a low-end head unit just so I can play CDs.


----------



## nineball

bd5034 said:


> I have been using an aftermarket one for some time, the reason I'm in need of a new one is that the one I'm currently using is over 10 years old and the motorized face is broken, plus it makes strange noises from time to time.
> 
> I'm wondering whether I should just get the MS-8 and not buy a head unit at all... Either that, or buy a low-end head unit just so I can play CDs.


just look for the features you want (usb, bt, iphone/ipod, etc) and don't worry about any processing. the ms8 will take care of everything.


----------



## coronaoperator

would the internal MS-8 amplifiers be sufficient and of a high enough caliber to run tweeters in an active setup? I could see going active without the need for outboard amplifiers. There should be enough power for at least image tweets running 8-10k and up, no?


----------



## coronaoperator

suggestion to the mods - I wish this thread was split into parts every 20 pages or so. Haveing 1 thread 180 pages long pretty much makes the search function worthless as the search function doesn't tell you where in the thread your answer lies


----------



## Dangerranger

coronaoperator said:


> would the internal MS-8 amplifiers be sufficient and of a high enough caliber to run tweeters in an active setup? I could see going active without the need for outboard amplifiers. There should be enough power for at least image tweets running 8-10k and up, no?


The MS-8 is going to set levels based on the "weakest link" in the audio chain. Due to the equal loudness curve of a nearfield environment (which is what the autotune of the MS-8 is with tweaking for the car environment), the midbasses have a higher required output level near the crossover with the sub than the tweeters do where they cross with the midbass, and the treble of such a tune rolls off in the top octave. In other words, the midbass is usually going to be the "limiting" driver in terms of the systems output capability. You'll be fine running tweeters off the internal amp of the MS-8.


----------



## kunstmilch

So, I may be a little crazy, but I read almost all of this thread and now I have a question for you guys, and especially Andy. I know you’re busy, but I wanted to get a couple more opinions on a set up I’m thinking through. 

To save space and time on this thread you can get the picture from my thread that I originally posted at,

My original post was titled: 
What would you do with my 'burban?

Hope I’m not steppin’ on any toes, you guys have been at this for a while now. 

Subscribed, heh.


----------



## Salami

coronaoperator said:


> suggestion to the mods - I wish this thread was split into parts every 20 pages or so. Haveing 1 thread 180 pages long pretty much makes the search function worthless as the search function doesn't tell you where in the thread your answer lies


Are you using the "search this thread" function at the top by the first post of the page?


----------



## AWC

kkant said:


> Yes.


Damn. What would be the optimal set-up for this? I ask because my oem rear speaker location is "wide" from the listener's position. I think it may be a good location for creating a wider stage. I've already re-done those positions to be in the very rear of my hatchback to minimize PLD's. 

Would 7.1 be beneficial? The main loss I would think is the seperate time allignment for the midbasses but isn't time allignment somewhat unimportant with a well tuned center channel? I'm all about lowering stress on each driver to reduce distortion, I realize its one of the biggest benefits of having a center channel if you're going to have alot of power.

Running the passives as a single channel also gives the benefit of bridging the amp that feeds the two. That would be, for my amp, 600 watts per side.

The weak point for most set-ups with this many amps would probably be DC power, but if that's covered, would the added power not be hte bomb?

Why is it that 7.1 is not covered much in these conversations?

Andy, what is your take on 7.1 VS 5.1 with two way front?


----------



## AWC

bd5034 said:


> I have been using an aftermarket one for some time, the reason I'm in need of a new one is that the one I'm currently using is over 10 years old and the motorized face is broken, plus it makes strange noises from time to time.
> 
> I'm wondering whether I should just get the MS-8 and not buy a head unit at all... Either that, or buy a low-end head unit just so I can play CDs.


Well I'm in somewhat the same boat except that I'm looking at an h/u that has no processing but is a damned fine stereo output section. I'm looking for a Denon or Nak, something with a digital input to run a pc later in life. The digital input is processed by the dac and sent, without degradation, to the MS8.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

AWC said:


> Well I'm in somewhat the same boat except that I'm looking at an h/u that has no processing but is a damned fine stereo output section. I'm looking for a Denon or Nak, something with a digital input to run a pc later in life. The digital input is processed by the dac and sent, without degradation, to the MS8.


see, now that sounds cool.

I was thinking that my eventual setup might go something like this:

Tablet PC -> head unit -> MS-8 

If you have some good ideas for head units that are high quality but devoid of glitzy processing, send me a PM - I'd like to see what you're looking at.


----------



## 14642

AWC said:


> Damn. What would be the optimal set-up for this? I ask because my oem rear speaker location is "wide" from the listener's position. I think it may be a good location for creating a wider stage. I've already re-done those positions to be in the very rear of my hatchback to minimize PLD's.
> 
> Would 7.1 be beneficial? The main loss I would think is the seperate time allignment for the midbasses but isn't time allignment somewhat unimportant with a well tuned center channel? I'm all about lowering stress on each driver to reduce distortion, I realize its one of the biggest benefits of having a center channel if you're going to have alot of power.
> 
> Running the passives as a single channel also gives the benefit of bridging the amp that feeds the two. That would be, for my amp, 600 watts per side.
> 
> The weak point for most set-ups with this many amps would probably be DC power, but if that's covered, would the added power not be hte bomb?
> 
> Why is it that 7.1 is not covered much in these conversations?
> 
> Andy, what is your take on 7.1 VS 5.1 with two way front?


5.1 with 2-way front is better than 7.1. If you want sides and rears, connect them in parallel.


----------



## Dr_jitsu

Excuse my newbie question, but should I get thgis unit?

My installer, Chris Pate, believes it will significantly improve my sound if I swap it out for my audiocontrol EQS

The rest of my system starts with the Nakamichi CD500 HU linked to the aforementioned audiocontrol EQS equalizer. My front stage consists of the CDT ES62iUS 3 way component speakers powered by a Cadence ZRS 2002 amp.

My rear stage consists of 2 Exodus Shiva X 12 inch subwoofers powered by a Cadence ZRS 7500D amp.

The JBL is a bit of a budget buster, but if it will significantly improve my sound then I will get it.


----------



## DAT

If you ask for an opinion then sure... 

Go with what Chris Pate says. I've always liked Audio Control but the MS-8 is in another league does about 90-95% perfect for most.. then the other 5% OCD users like the Audion Bit One and the tuning. Both will do the job !

So YES !  Sell the other stuff and get the MS-8!!


----------



## Dr_jitsu

W/out it I don't have time alignment.


----------



## Dangerranger

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> 5.1 with 2-way front is better than 7.1. If you want sides and rears, connect them in parallel.


I know it's probably been touched on, but I'm just curious, I know sides are basically out of phase information with no center information at all, when you set up rears, is it the same as sides with more delay or similar? I know having sides mostly benefits stage width and depth to an extent..what are the "advantages" to having rears in addition to sides? even deeper soundstage? or does it further improve width? How exactly do rears work in the algorithm?


----------



## 14642

Out of phase information in the recording will be steered to the rear. In acoustic or direct to 2-track recordings or recordings designed to recreate a live event, this information will mostly be room reflections. Steering those to the rear works pretty well in terms of creating good ambience. The algorithm is similar to PL2 in the steering of signals to the rear, but L7 has some other goodies that make it possible to resolve rear left and right (something not done very well by other algorithms) and another feature that helps to plant front steered images in front. The difference between rears and sides is an additional few milliseconds of delay.


----------



## AWC

So if we were to have the front stage fully controlled by, say a Zapco DSP 6, and full time allignment could be provided seperately, would 7.1 be beneficial. This is fully hypothetical and I've no interest in spending that much money, but is it simply a lack of time-allignment for the midbass that amkes the 5.1 2-way option better? Just curious....


----------



## coronaoperator

Thank you *Salami* for the heads up on the "search this thread link" I couldn't for the life of me spot that one. 

...and thank you *Dangerranger* for the advise on running tweets off the built in ms-8 amplifier.

I have now resolved all my problems and am in sonic heaven    

The built in amplifier is more than plenty to run my a-pillar mounted tweets, if anyone is on the fence on this one I suggest you give it a try. You have nothing to lose but money on a dedicated tweet amp. :laugh:

This system never sounded so good. It has always had amazing dynamics, but now my performers are on a stage at eye level ... I might even need a booster seat to see them.  Still have to nail down a center image, tends to wander a bit, maybey a center channel is in store for me if I can't get the tweets aimed just right.


System - 3-way front (CDT m6, CDT es-04 passive off a butler td-1500 amplifier, CDT dr-26 tweets off of jbl ms-8 (4k and up), dayton titanic mk-iii 10" in a folded horn enclosure (path length - 7 feet) off a sony xm explode 1200


----------



## AAAAAAA

When running 5.1 with speakers in the rear side doors, I have been seting up ms8 to run sides and not rears. Is this correct or should I be setting them as rears?


----------



## CraigE

Correct.
The MS-8 will not let you choose rears unless you have sides.


----------



## quality_sound

Andy,

What would you suggest for an Audi A4 Avant with the B&O setup? It uses WAY small front mids (80mm), center channel (70mm), and rear mids (80mm), but it's a 3-way front, fullrange center, 2-way rear doors, and 2-way d-pillars. 

This will be replacing my M3. I already have the MS-8, JL 900/5 and 600/4, Morel HO 4" set, Integra Ovation 4" set, and a single 4" IO and passives for all 5 sets. Big plus for the B&O setup is 8s in the doors but a 165mm "sub" under the spare tire.


----------



## corcraft

Ok, I know nothing about logic7 but I am interested in this unit because of the rave reviews and because I know if Andy is behind it, its right. Btw Andy, I think I still have your old beta force jacket, lol, I miss those speakers. I could probably search for my answers but this thread has how many posts? Plus I do most of my internet research on my blackberry and its a pain. 

My main question is- should the rear speakers be full range and how much power should they have compared to the front? I have 145wpc on the fronts.

Also, should I run a 4" cc in the factory location in an acura tl or use the phantom? If I should use it how much power should I put on it? I read somewhere that a jbl rep had 1 in a tl and it sounded better without it so I wanted to ask. 

Then active front tweeter location? Kicks or sail panels? Woofers are in the doors.


----------



## ramsa1

Guys, is there any disadvantage to running acoustic calibration at -55db. My amps gains are set such that at this level the sweeps sound appropriate i.e not too loud.


----------



## corcraft

Andy,
Well, I am now a ms8 owner  I know your a busy guy, if you get a chance let me know how much power that you recommend to the rears and cc as compared to the mains and if they should be full range and/ or mono with the ms8- I know nothing about logic 7. Also if you think I should or should not use the cc in the factory location in an acura tl. I read that it was better without in this car so I wanted to ask your opinion.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

Hey, I have a question that may have been answered, but I'm not really certain... I tried searching the thread, but I was unsuccessful, perhaps because I may be using the wrong key words? Here is the question:

I have a three-way front stage with each side consisting of a tweeter, 3" midrange, and 6.5" woofer. I am using a single 4-channel amplifier to power it, so I am running "quasi-active" - meaning the 3" midranges and tweeters are on their passive crossovers, and each side uses a single channel of amplification, then the 6.5" woofers have their own dedicated channel of amplification. I have the midrange and tweeter combination high passed actively at 300hz and the midbass drivers low passed around 280hz. 

When I install the MS-8, should I put the 6.5" woofer on the passive crossover so the MS-8 sees three speakers per channel, or will I get better performance with my current wiring scheme, so that the MS-8 sees a mid+tweeter on one channel and a 6.5" woofer on a separate channel? One worry I had is that if I were to leave my "quasi-active" setup, the MS-8 might think it is simply a two-way setup, and it might assign midrange duty to the 6.5" drivers. Is this a possibility or am I just imagining crazy stuff? If I had 6 channels of amplification, I would obviously go three-way active, but I don't have that option right now....


----------



## billymonter

The answer from Andy is somewhere in the posts. Bottom line you will be ok using one channel for midbass and another for mid+tweet with a passive. The trick is in where you place your crossovers. I suggest you do a bit more reading it's great stuff.
cheers


----------



## Wheres The Butta

billymonter said:


> The answer from Andy is somewhere in the posts. Bottom line you will be ok using one channel for midbass and another for mid+tweet with a passive. The trick is in where you place your crossovers. I suggest you do a bit more reading it's great stuff.
> cheers


Thanks for the response.


----------



## ja0879

I just installed my ms-8 yesterday this thing is amazing I am still working the kinks out getting it calibrated correctly I had a couple channells I need to change around but I love it I have it hooked to 2 sets of re xxx components and wow does it make a differance


----------



## OrangeDub

bd5034 said:


> Hey, I have a question that may have been answered, but I'm not really certain... I tried searching the thread, but I was unsuccessful, perhaps because I may be using the wrong key words? Here is the question:
> 
> I have a three-way front stage with each side consisting of a tweeter, 3" midrange, and 6.5" woofer. I am using a single 4-channel amplifier to power it, so I am running "quasi-active" - meaning the 3" midranges and tweeters are on their passive crossovers, and each side uses a single channel of amplification, then the 6.5" woofers have their own dedicated channel of amplification. I have the midrange and tweeter combination high passed actively at 300hz and the midbass drivers low passed around 280hz.
> 
> When I install the MS-8, should I put the 6.5" woofer on the passive crossover so the MS-8 sees three speakers per channel, or will I get better performance with my current wiring scheme, so that the MS-8 sees a mid+tweeter on one channel and a 6.5" woofer on a separate channel? One worry I had is that if I were to leave my "quasi-active" setup, the MS-8 might think it is simply a two-way setup, and it might assign midrange duty to the 6.5" drivers. Is this a possibility or am I just imagining crazy stuff? If I had 6 channels of amplification, I would obviously go three-way active, but I don't have that option right now....


Snippet from Andy:


Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'd mount the mid closer to the tweeter and separate the midbass and midrange/tweeters on two separate channels. That way, MS-8 can time align the midbass separately.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

OrangeDub said:


> Snippet from Andy:


Thanks, that is precisely what I needed to hear.


----------



## vactor

well, here's my setup in my G37 sedan:
oem nav headunit
MS-8
JBL 660 GTi tweeters in the doors with 300 watts from bridged Alpine PDX-F6.
JBL 660 GTi midbass in the doors with 300 watts from bridged Alpine PDX-F6.
CDT 3" in oem center channel location with 300 watts from bridged Alpine PDX-F6. (to be replaced with JBL P462 4" coax as soon as i can whack out a larger hole in the center)
Aurasound MR52 coaxials in stock rear doors with passive crossover and 150 watts per side.
2 SI BM mkII subs with 1200 watts from an alpine PDX-M12 in a sealed box in the trunk. 










been playing with the setup for the last day. i notice that the soundstage is MUCH wider when i select "front" as opposed to "driver" and that the whole system seems 'larger'. also, the highs seem quite hars and the midbass is lacking and there is a TON of sub bass. i have the remote sub level control on the M12 almost totally turned off most of the time. if i crack it, it really overwhelms. it all sounds "ok" but not as breathtaking as i would think my 3000 watt system should sound ... my 6 speaker acura gives it a real run for the money (dyn tweets, pioneer prs mids in kicks, 2 ED 8's in the trunk ... 100 watts to each front speaker, 200 to each sub, all off a 9835 headunit) right now except in the sub department. much smoother highs and a LOT better midbass. not sure where to start ...


----------



## eviling

do you really need to run active with the win cross over of the 660's? i'm gonna run an ms-8 with the cross over on those speakers :\ i mean why spend all that money on those particular speakers when that cross over is like 200$ of the price..


----------



## vactor

eviling said:


> do you really need to run active with the win cross over of the 660's? i'm gonna run an ms-8 with the cross over on those speakers :\ i mean why spend all that money on those particular speakers when that cross over is like 200$ of the price..


crossovers are not only too big, but with active processing, i should be able to do what is necessary. and i got them for a GREAT price. i am a HUGE fan of active systems (all 3 of my car systems as well as my 3 home systems are active, NHT XDa, Linkwitz Orion and Linkwitz Pluto). active is just my cup of tea!!


----------



## eviling

ahh i like plug and chug. and good yes is the cross over huge, but still an amazing cross over, for its share size and qualifacations it must be one of the best cross overs for a comp set out there. 


alright questions. 

first off, i' must of misunderstood based on my assumptiones but apparently the unit only requires or even asks for 1 set of rcas, isntead of all 6 channels, it jsut wants a right and left. is this correct? even with an after market deck with all of the pre outs? 


also, the output for the sub i'm reading something about it being mono, no my concearns lie in which plug to plug it into on the amp. i know if i take one out now i loose something, but if i just plug it in from the ms-8 with the complete signal through the one rca, would it sufice? or should i use something like this to split it up?so both rca's on the amp get the signals or is this completely unnecessary? or have i misunderstood this and they do have dual channel sub output from the ms-8?








Knukonceptz product detail for KRYSTAL KABLE TWISTED PAIR Y ADAPTER 1F2M


----------



## t3sn4f2

eviling said:


> ahh i like plug and chug. and good yes is the cross over huge, but still an amazing cross over, for its share size and qualifacations it must be one of the best cross overs for a comp set out there.
> 
> 
> alright questions.
> 
> first off, i' must of misunderstood based on my assumptiones but apparently the unit only requires or even asks for 1 set of rcas, isntead of all 6 channels, it jsut wants a right and left. is this correct? even with an after market deck with all of the pre outs?
> 
> 
> also, the output for the sub i'm reading something about it being mono, no my concearns lie in which plug to plug it into on the amp. i know if i take one out now i loose something, but if i just plug it in from the ms-8 with the complete signal through the one rca, would it sufice? or should i use something like this to split it up?so both rca's on the amp get the signals or is this completely unnecessary? or have i misunderstood this and they do have dual channel sub output from the ms-8?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Knukonceptz product detail for KRYSTAL KABLE TWISTED PAIR Y ADAPTER 1F2M


In your case, all that needs to be sent to the MS-8 is the full bandwidth stereo output from the front left and right RCA's of an aftermarket head unit. The extra RCA connections on the MS-8 inputs are for OEM head units that crossover low level outputs before the multi outputs go into the OEM amp. They're basically work the same as the high level inputs except with less padding on the inputs so that they work better with lower voltage OEM sources.

As for the splitter, that depends on the amps in question. Some amps needs both left and right inputs filled with the use a a splitter in order to put out full power. Some don't. Check the manual on that one.


----------



## Duper

vactor said:


> been playing with the setup for the last day. i notice that the soundstage is MUCH wider when i select "front" as opposed to "driver" and that the whole system seems 'larger'. also, the highs seem quite hars and the midbass is lacking and there is a TON of sub bass. i have the remote sub level control on the M12 almost totally turned off most of the time. if i crack it, it really overwhelms. it all sounds "ok" but not as breathtaking as i would think my 3000 watt system should sound ... my 6 speaker acura gives it a real run for the money (dyn tweets, pioneer prs mids in kicks, 2 ED 8's in the trunk ... 100 watts to each front speaker, 200 to each sub, all off a 9835 headunit) right now except in the sub department. much smoother highs and a LOT better midbass. not sure where to start ...


What volume are you doing the sweeps at? You might be running them too loud and clipping the mics in the headphones.


----------



## 14642

Duper said:


> What volume are you doing the sweeps at? You might be running them too loud and clipping the mics in the headphones.


That's what this sounds like to me too. Choosing "Front" instead of "Driver" will essentially shut off time alignment for left and right, so you'll hear the speakers instead of an image. 

If you have a good center image with the unit in "Driver" then the first set of sweeps aren't too loud. And the midrange and high frequency sweeps probably aren't too loud for sweeps 2-4. I suspect the subwoofer sweep is too loud. Turn the sub amp way down and try again. Alternately, try configuring a system without a sub until you get the hang of tuning MS-8. Then, add the sub and make sure the sweeps are quiet--especially the sub.


----------



## eviling

t3sn4f2 said:


> In your case, all that needs to be sent to the MS-8 is the full bandwidth stereo output from the front left and right RCA's of an aftermarket head unit. The extra RCA connections on the MS-8 inputs are for OEM head units that crossover low level outputs before the multi outputs go into the OEM amp. They're basically work the same as the high level inputs except with less padding on the inputs so that they work better with lower voltage OEM sources.
> 
> As for the splitter, that depends on the amps in question. Some amps needs both left and right inputs filled with the use a a splitter in order to put out full power. Some don't. Check the manual on that one.


its an alpine pdx amp, i'm not sure on that i'll have to look it up.


----------



## oca123

So the MS-8 has been out for a while now, and it is not as "hot" as it used to be. It has a USB port, and I recall that Andy was talking about releasing some tools to export profiles, etc. so we can take advantage of that USB port.

What is the state of that? How much control over the unit can the USB connection provide? Does it only allow flashing the firmware, can we edit parameters, filters, etc.? Does the MS8 generate FIR filters that could be replaced/downloaded with the use of a USB connection? 

Also, I have two more questions, and the answers might be buried in this thread, though I have not found them... 
1) how many dB should the sweeps be ran at? I know there is always the issue of "too loud" but what is the optimum level?
2) the MS8 does t/a, fixes F/R, and it also does some mysterious stuff to phase. What about the room? Does it perform any kind of room correction? Does it look at impulse response? The reason is that I am interested in adding a PC-based processor before the MS8's input signal in order to do some DRC, and allow the use of pre-recorded impulse responses to simulate different environments (big room, etc.)


----------



## vactor

Duper said:


> What volume are you doing the sweeps at? You might be running them too loud and clipping the mics in the headphones.


ok, 3 more attempts today, and i did not realize the gains had not been set. after the 3rd setup, it's a BEAST. dynamic as all hell and just BREATHtaking. i am LOVING it. now to attack some rattles. but DAMN, the imaging and dynamics make me Smile!!


----------



## Wheres The Butta

vactor said:


> ok, 3 more attempts today, and i did not realize the gains had not been set. after the 3rd setup, it's a BEAST. dynamic as all hell and just BREATHtaking. i am LOVING it. now to attack some rattles. but DAMN, the imaging and dynamics make me Smile!!


yeah, I had the same exact experience you did. Today I installed my MS-8 and was initially baffled at the garbage sound I got. I knew it had to be user error of some sort because the sound was atrocious.

After a bunch of troubleshooting and a couple calibrations later, it sounds amazing. Every single type of music I tried sounded beautiful. I'm just amazed at how acoustic songs can sound so nuanced and gentle, yet when I turn on some drum and bass I can crank it till my skull is vibrating with absolutely zero adjustment needed. What a dynamic tune.


----------



## unemployedconsumer

vactor said:


> ok, 3 more attempts today, and i did not realize the gains had not been set. after the 3rd setup, it's a BEAST. dynamic as all hell and just BREATHtaking. i am LOVING it. now to attack some rattles. but DAMN, the imaging and dynamics make me Smile!!


good to hear. what exactly did you do? set the gains first than run callibration?


----------



## 14642

oca123 said:


> So the MS-8 has been out for a while now, and it is not as "hot" as it used to be. It has a USB port, and I recall that Andy was talking about releasing some tools to export profiles, etc. so we can take advantage of that USB port.
> 
> What is the state of that? How much control over the unit can the USB connection provide? Does it only allow flashing the firmware, can we edit parameters, filters, etc.? Does the MS8 generate FIR filters that could be replaced/downloaded with the use of a USB connection?
> 
> Also, I have two more questions, and the answers might be buried in this thread, though I have not found them...
> 1) how many dB should the sweeps be ran at? I know there is always the issue of "too loud" but what is the optimum level?
> 2) the MS8 does t/a, fixes F/R, and it also does some mysterious stuff to phase. What about the room? Does it perform any kind of room correction? Does it look at impulse response? The reason is that I am interested in adding a PC-based processor before the MS8's input signal in order to do some DRC, and allow the use of pre-recorded impulse responses to simulate different environments (big room, etc.)


I suggest adding the PC based processor AFTER MS-8 with a multichannel audio interface. If you're going to attempt room synthesis, you'll discover that you need to apply longer reverberant tails to the rear, shorter ones to simulate early reflections to the front and if you wrap the front right and left into the sides, you'll add a bit of width. This is not for the faint of heart, but it's a great exercise.


----------



## vactor

unemployedconsumer said:


> good to hear. what exactly did you do? set the gains first than run callibration?


exactly. and i used my generic RS SPL meter to get the sweeps into the 85 db range (which to your ears, will NOT be very loud at all). and bingo, things are settled nicely. and DAMN, my system now has headroom and dynamics that make me


----------



## mrstangerbanger

So is there an update coming out for the MS8?????


----------



## thehatedguy

Andy, exactly why do we want wide disspersion in the treble? And why are wideband/fullrange drivers bad? I know they lack disspersion due to cone size, but I would think something like a 3 would have enough disspersion to be pretty good. The wavelengths of the high frequencies are so small and the cabin is so reflective, wouldn't we get enough high frequency distribution through reflections and the rear channels?

Just for my own editifcation since no one is touching the subject in the Build a car from scratch using Science thread.


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> Andy, exactly why do we want wide disspersion in the treble? And why are wideband/fullrange drivers bad? I know they lack disspersion due to cone size, but I would think something like a 3 would have enough disspersion to be pretty good. The wavelengths of the high frequencies are so small and the cabin is so reflective, wouldn't we get enough high frequency distribution through reflections and the rear channels?
> 
> Just for my own editifcation since no one is touching the subject in the Build a car from scratch using Science thread.


Read in a thread that Andy suggested 2 things to get around reflections in a car: either minimize them or "spread the chaos". 

The best way to minimize them is through the use of unconventional drivers such as horns and big diaphragms for "pattern control". As you know reflected sound can narrow the image if the arrival times is within 20ms (perceived as the initial sound). Therefore minimizing crosstalk helps to maintain stereo to its maximum. 

The other way (if I remember correctly) is to "spread the chaos". Meaning that we can try to make all the reflections have similar frequency response to the initial sound (spectral content being the same for on-axis and off-axis). Using the speakers where the dispersion is wide is the way to do this and using the speaker within its intended range too (before beaming). 

Hope I got this right 
Kelvin


----------



## thehatedguy

I seem to remember Andy saying that too.

And to be honest, I don't know which way I like better. Seems like controlling the disspersion gets a more focused image but lacks ambience.

I don't know which I like better...but I do know I love the multichannel experience.


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> I seem to remember Andy saying that too.
> 
> And to be honest, I don't know which way I like better. Seems like controlling the disspersion gets a more focused image but lacks ambience.
> 
> I don't know which I like better...but I do know I love the multichannel experience.


Patrick Bateman states the same thing regarding the lack of ambience with horns. His thread (on his forum) talks about that - thread name is "A Soundstage with Width and Depth" 

Kelvin


----------



## gitusum

is there anyone in the richmond va area or within a hour of richmond that can help me with my ms8? I have the following

kenwood 9980 nav
arc audio mini 125.4
arc audio mini 500.1
dls iridium 3 ways 
idq10v3
jbl ms8

i went thru the setup last nite or attempted to lol i really have no clue what the hell i am doing other than i know when something sounds good. after attempting the setup the stuff sounds worse than my stock bose stereo that was in the car. there are alot of things on the amps which i have no clue about tuning what so ever so i dont know where anything is suppose to be set  willing to pay someone who knows what they are doing to get this stuff sounding good!!! to have over 4 grand in audio and sound worse than bose is nuts i need this fixed!! anyone?


----------



## 14642

thehatedguy said:


> I seem to remember Andy saying that too.
> 
> And to be honest, I don't know which way I like better. Seems like controlling the disspersion gets a more focused image but lacks ambience.
> 
> I don't know which I like better...but I do know I love the multichannel experience.


The point is that in a car, you CAN'T control the reflections enough. If you were able to eliminate them, then you'd have only direct sound. That's like listening in an anechoic chamber, which is a horrifying experience. 

The reason to "spread the chaos around" is because the listening area is so small, that we can equalize the sound of the speakers and the sound of the car with one set of filters, so long as the direct sound bears some resemblance to the reflected sound. The myriad of shapes and surfaces prevents these from being exactly the same, but if the reflected sound doesn't have enough high frequency content to be similar to the direct sound, then this EQ doesn't work very well. 

Take a 6" component system with a crossover point that's too high as an example. If the crossover is designed so that the on-axis response is flat, but the off axis response has a big hole at the crossover then EQ-ing for the average will provide a big peak in the on-axis response and a smaller hole off axis. 

There's no ambience in a car unless you create it using rear speakers and some delay. There is "spread" which is what happens when direct sound is combined with reflections and both reach your ears at about the same time. That's the reality of small listening spaces. With horns, there's less spread because there are fewer high frequency reflections from boundaries that are ADJACENT to the mouth of the horn. The reflections from the boundaries near your ears and behind you don't contribute ambience because the car is too small, but they do alter the frequency response.

Widebanders are good when you want to build a super cheap almost full range speaker for a dollar. That's what they're for--cheap computer speakers. They have no place in a high-quality audio system. They have wide dispersion at low frequencies and narrow dispersion at high frequencies (relative to their diameter) just as all speakers do. Asking if they're good enough is a little like asking if putting only a little rancid ketchup on your burger will really make it taste bad.


----------



## rain27

Quick question: Is it necessary to redo the auto tune when swapping out head units? In other words, does the auto tune take into account anything from the head unit that would alter the sound accordingly??


----------



## AAAAAAA

^When using an after market HU andy says not to do the input setup. So the answer is you don't need to, it will do nothing.


----------



## t3sn4f2

rain27 said:


> Quick question:_ Is it necessary to redo the auto tune when swapping out head units?_ In other words, does the auto tune take into account anything from head unit that would alter the sound accordingly??


Is it an aftermarket headunit to aftermarket headunit sway? Did you skip "input setup" part?


----------



## rain27

t3sn4f2 said:


> Is it an aftermarket headunit to aftermarket headunit sway? Did you skip "input setup" part?


Yes, just swapping out aftermarket for aftermarket hu's. I did skip input set up. The reason I ask is because I wanted to see if I could hear any differences between "sq" head units and your standard types and the best way to do that is by keeping the exact auto tune, I imagine.


----------



## t3sn4f2

rain27 said:


> Yes, just swapping out aftermarket for aftermarket hu's. I did skip input set up. The reason I ask is because I wanted to see if I could hear any differences between "sq" head units and your standard types and the best way to do that is by keeping the exact auto tune, I imagine.


Well the setup is right for that comparison then. You might wanna check the FR response of those head units at the volume setting you will be comparing them at to make sure they don't have any FR tailoring based on volume. Not all head unit come with a flat FR at all volume settings. Look at bikini's thread on his top of the line pioneer nav to see a drastic example of this. Manufacturers tend to boost the bass and the treble as you lower the volume in order to make up for road noise. They also cut the treble on the top end as you reach the top of the volume scale to compensate for the reflections in a car. Even the MS-8 has a final tailored FR curve based on those conditions (boost the bass and roll of the highs a bit).

So in reality, you won't be comparing head unit SQ, instead you'll be comparing EQ settings.


----------



## thehatedguy

Andy, how far up should one be trying to spread the chaos? With a 1" tweeter you are good to about 10k. You could go down to a 3/4" dome and be in the piston range of the speaker to near 18k and have broader disspersion.

I'm trying to keep all of my speakers within their piston ranges as well as I can.

BTW, still trying to find 3 of those 3s you were telling me about...hard to come by in the junk yards. About the only thing you can find in a 3 is a wideband driver, but you could add a tweeter to the top end of things I suppose...just 90% of them the sensitivity sucks balls.


----------



## eviling

question: could i have 3 sub outputs? to say i would have a 12" in my trunk than 2 8"s up in the rear deck?

something like this


----------



## gitusum

awesome! 181 pages of posts and not 1 person can help me! that rocks! thanx


----------



## eviling

gitusum said:


> awesome! 181 pages of posts and not 1 person can help me! that rocks! thanx


all the auto tuning does is the dsp and Time alignment. did you set your EQ? as far as i know it doesnt do the EQ for you.


----------



## rain27

eviling said:


> all the auto tuning does is the dsp and Time alignment. did you set your EQ? as far as i know it doesnt do the EQ for you.


I'm not sure what "all the auto tuning does is the dsp" means. Yes, it tunes your system, which includes the eq.


----------



## eviling

rain27 said:


> I'm not sure what "all the auto tuning does is the dsp" means. Yes, it tunes your system, which includes the eq.


it sets the EQ? i was under the impression you set your EQ your self. hmm :mean:


----------



## rain27

eviling said:


> it sets the EQ? i was under the impression you set your EQ your self. hmm :mean:


The MS-8 auto tunes your system to meet a specific eq target curve. Andy speaks about this in this thread. You also get a 31 band eq to adjust to your liking if you do not like the sound of the eq curve. If the MS-8 did not set the eq, it wouldn't be doing a whole lot of auto tuning.


----------



## vactor

thehatedguy said:


> BTW, still trying to find 3 of those 3s you were telling me about...hard to come by in the junk yards. About the only thing you can find in a 3 is a wideband driver, but you could add a tweeter to the top end of things I suppose...just 90% of them the sensitivity sucks balls.


good 3" speakers were mentioned? do tell! i currently have a 3" i am not too thrilled with as a center ... so if u know of something better, spill the beans!


----------



## eviling

rain27 said:


> The MS-8 auto tunes your system to meet a specific eq target curve. Andy speaks about this in this thread. You also get a 31 band eq to adjust to your liking if you do not like the sound of the eq curve. If the MS-8 did not set the eq, it wouldn't be doing a whole lot of auto tuning.


i was about to say, because i just droped mine in and did the calibrations and it showes me a flat EQ but doesn't sound flat. 

slight iddy bitty problem...my rear driver side speakr wont work. this is my set up


jbl c608gti mkii up front
cadence 6x9's in the rear
jbl w12gti mkii sub

and i have channels 1, 2 on right left front, and 3 4 on right left rear (wired) and sub on 5, I go into select what is what
i set the front as "1way" since im running passive. i assume thats correct, fi im wrong tell me. 

i than select 1 sub, or im sorry, i think sub is first, i select one sub, 5. set. done, than front set 1 way, set my cross overs so on, than it wants center, i say none, cause i have none. I than see the selection for "side" i'm not entirley sure what that is, but it wont let me add my rears with out choosing a side, but when i do that, go forward, set cross overs, i set the side speakers for emptry ports btw, because it woudlnt let me move forward with out choosing a slection for them. but when i go to test my set ups, front right, check, front left, check, rear right, check, rear left. nothing. and i add to this, testing the "side chanels" i set to 6 and 7 do nothing (of course their empty) but after calibration, i hear a ringing, that i believe is coming out of the rear left speaker :\ i checked for any pulses of the rear 6x9's and i did feel a slight pulse when the volume was up. i'm not entirley sure why it's playing at such low levels. any input would be great  thanks


----------



## CraigE

Label the rears as sides.
MS-8 will not let you choose rears, if you do not have sides.
I would not recommend leaving the sides "empty".

From page 30 of the manual;
If your system has only side OR rear speakers, configure those speakers in this section (Side), and skip the next section (Rear).


----------



## avpman

eviling said:


> i was about to say, because i just droped mine in and did the calibrations and it showes me a flat EQ but doesn't sound flat.
> 
> slight iddy bitty problem...my rear driver side speakr wont work. this is my set up
> 
> 
> jbl c608gti mkii up front
> cadence 6x9's in the rear
> jbl w12gti mkii sub
> 
> and i have channels 1, 2 on right left front, and 3 4 on right left rear (wired) and sub on 5, I go into select what is what
> i set the front as "1way" since im running passive. i assume thats correct, fi im wrong tell me.
> 
> i than select 1 sub, or im sorry, i think sub is first, i select one sub, 5. set. done, than front set 1 way, set my cross overs so on, than it wants center, i say none, cause i have none. I than see the selection for "side" i'm not entirley sure what that is, but it wont let me add my rears with out choosing a side, but when i do that, go forward, set cross overs, i set the side speakers for emptry ports btw, because it woudlnt let me move forward with out choosing a slection for them. but when i go to test my set ups, front right, check, front left, check, rear right, check, rear left. nothing. and i add to this, testing the "side chanels" i set to 6 and 7 do nothing (of course their empty) but after calibration, i hear a ringing, that i believe is coming out of the rear left speaker :\ i checked for any pulses of the rear 6x9's and i did feel a slight pulse when the volume was up. i'm not entirley sure why it's playing at such low levels. any input would be great  thanks


If you don't have BOTH sides AND rears then you connect the back speakers to the SIDE channels. In the setup you then set the rear to None.


----------



## eviling

ahh alright i was thinking that might be it. still dont why it would still leave the channel blank though? well not blank but with next to no signal :\

turned out to be a double hitter, the lead to the speaker its self was loose, on top of that, the reason for the weak signal was a faulty set of rca's  i did test them, but i didnt bend them and once my back seat folds up it bends them and causes a parcial open in that particular lead to the rears  bummerville. i dont have an extra set, gonna ride with out rears i guess :'(



new problem...now i hear a hum, what happened? O_O its completly unignorable, its driving me bonkers! i cant even listen to music.


----------



## eviling

bit of an update, the hum seems to of been a calibrtion error that was some how looped into it, i had to recalibrate and it went away, it didnt even go away after rebooting several hours later. 

still trying to tweak it, but the initial set ups have shown extreamly promising results and i haven't even taken it active yet. but things look very good, the front stage does have a bit to much bass, dont understand why i can set a hi pass on my rear but not on my front stage? my woofers are being pushed pretty hard, still trying to tweak some settings but i have to much school work to play around with it that much  hense why its taken me all this time to troubleshoot the humming. if anyones got some tuning tips i'd be glad to hear it.


----------



## vactor

after using the MS8, i want to sugest some minor improvements ...
page 11 of the manual, should have additional space so that the user can write down the crossover frequency and slope.

the interface should allow you to review and change the crossover settings without having to do an entirely new setup. you should be able to get pink noise from each channel, not just front left / right (i had the tweeter and mid switched around and it was a bit hard to tell as both were playing at the same time). 

that is all. would seem to be an easy firmware update too ...


----------



## subwoofery

vactor said:


> after using the MS8, i want to sugest some minor improvements ...
> page 11 of the manual, should have additional space so that the user can write down the crossover frequency and slope.
> 
> *the interface should allow you to review and change the crossover settings without having to do an entirely new setup*. you should be able to get pink noise from each channel, not just front left / right (i had the tweeter and mid switched around and it was a bit hard to tell as both were playing at the same time).
> 
> that is all. would seem to be an easy firmware update too ...


Understand why user's want that however if the interface let's you change the Xover points and slopes then T/A would not be accurate enough. There would be phase problems due to that. 
The freq response shape would show peaks and dips due to that. 

Kelvin


----------



## vactor

subwoofery said:


> Understand why user's want that however if the interface let's you change the Xover points and slopes then T/A would not be accurate enough. There would be phase problems due to that.
> The freq response shape would show peaks and dips due to that.
> 
> Kelvin


or at least do this quickly, choose channel, change slope, retune. right now i have to erase the whole setup and start anew. and if i don't have everything written down (who uses pen and paper these days ?? LOL) it can turn into a bit of a mess LOL.


----------



## eviling

let me note, after some manual reading and playing around, the only way i was able to get a cross over on my front stage with passive cross overs (with out using the amps cross over) was to set up some dummy channels, by setting my front to 2 way, setting the high's at 100 (just something i thought might sound alright) and set the low's up to empty slots, but the only way i can see around this is to use the amps cross over, since it's after the ms-8 in sequence and should take care of the low end, my problem was my woofers needed to be cut off at a pretty drastic slope otherwise they rattle the entire door panel. 

but a note to my epic tuning skills, in the end after tweaking it, the tuning i had set on my 7200 including T\A wasn't to far off of what the ms-8 gave me, aside fromt he dynamics the DSP added. again i note, i only got this unit to upgrade from my 7200 to a full featured navi unit and retain the SQ control of the 7200.


----------



## 14642

vactor said:


> after using the MS8, i want to sugest some minor improvements ...
> page 11 of the manual, should have additional space so that the user can write down the crossover frequency and slope.
> 
> the interface should allow you to review and change the crossover settings without having to do an entirely new setup. you should be able to get pink noise from each channel, not just front left / right (i had the tweeter and mid switched around and it was a bit hard to tell as both were playing at the same time).
> 
> that is all. would seem to be an easy firmware update too ...


I'll send you a new piece of paper and a pen.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your POV), MS-8 won't allow the user to change crossovers without a new system configuration from the beginning. It builds the system as a serial process. Since the auto EQ also adjusts the crossover and tunes according to the acoustic output of the system, changing crossovers invalidates the EQ. That's why you have to run calibration again if you change the crossovers.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

I searched the thread for this, and found some information, but I feel that it didnt' entirely answer my question:

Will a MS-8 play nice with an audio control epicenter? The epicenter is purported to fill in the bass where it has been cut out on devices like the ipod or zune, and I assume the MS-8 can simply process that filler into something more palatable? The suggestion was that the epicenter was unneeded, and *possibly* incompatible (but this wasn't verified) but I have to ask - if the bass is missing to begin with due to a flawed format, how can it be bad to attempt to replace it? 

The way I see it, it's like a sausage making process, where the epicenter produces the raw meat, and the MS-8 can turn it into sausage. Am I wrong? I ask this specifically because I already have an epicenter sitting in my workshop, collecting dust.


----------



## AAAAAAA

Andy, one has to wonder how much MS8 has helped other companies out with their own products. Alpine, RF each now have an auto tune feature just a year after the ms8 came out. I can't help but wonder how helpful the ms8 was and how much it influenced everyone else’s product.

I am sure as soon as it came out the big companies all bought one and started reverse engineering... as I am sure JBL will do with the new entrants.

What do you think?


----------



## Wheres The Butta

AAAAAAA said:


> Andy, one has to wonder how much MS8 has helped other companies out with their own products. Alpine, RF each now have an auto tune feature just a year after the ms8 came out. I can't help but wonder how helpful the ms8 was and how much it influenced everyone else’s product.
> 
> I am sure as soon as it came out the big companies all bought one and started reverse engineering... as I am sure JBL will do with the new entrants.
> 
> What do you think?


Didn't alpine have an auto-tune feature before?


----------



## t3sn4f2

bd5034 said:


> I searched the thread for this, and found some information, but I feel that it didnt' entirely answer my question:
> 
> Will a MS-8 play nice with an audio control epicenter? *The epicenter is purported to fill in the bass where it has been cut out on devices like the ipod or zune,* and I assume the MS-8 can simply process that filler into something more palatable? The suggestion was that the epicenter was unneeded, and *possibly* incompatible (but this wasn't verified) but I have to ask - *if the bass is missing to begin with due to a flawed format, *how can it be bad to attempt to replace it?
> 
> The way I see it, it's like a sausage making process, where the epicenter produces the raw meat, and the MS-8 can turn it into sausage. Am I wrong? I ask this specifically because I already have an epicenter sitting in my workshop, collecting dust.


There isn't a portable player out there that would have a roll off in the bass when connected to a high impedance RCA AUX or RCA main input of ANY processor. Roll off comes from the the inability of the portable players output to deliver enough current to difficult and many time lower impedance of a headphone. Look at my iPhone 3GS measurements thread. 

As for compression formats rolling off the bass in the same manner, that is also impossible in any bit rate that you would care to even load into your system. IE you'll have bigger thing to worry about then the ball rolling off, like total garbled garbage sound. And if you still prefer to get some bass back, which I'm not 100% would be lost, you can still boost the base tone or EQ on the MS-8 which would integrate into the system much better I would think.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

t3sn4f2 said:


> There isn't a portable player out there that would have a roll off in the bass when connected to a high impedance RCA AUX or RCA main input of ANY processor. Roll off comes from the the inability of the portable players output to deliver enough current to difficult and many time lower impedance of a headphone. Look at my iPhone 3GS measurements thread.
> 
> As for compression formats rolling off the bass in the same manner, that is also impossible in any bit rate that you would care to even load into your system. IE you'll have bigger thing to worry about then the ball rolling off, like total garbled garbage sound. And if you still prefer to get some bass back, which I'm not 100% would be lost, you can still boost the base tone or EQ on the MS-8 which would integrate into the system much better I would think.


Thanks, appreciate the response. I guess it's time to sell the epicenter.


----------



## vactor

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'll send you a new piece of paper and a pen.


will it be a cool JBL pen? Glock has some REALLY nice pens with this soft grippy surface i liked. send me a pm and i will give you my address 

but really, the MS8 kicks ass. once the sweeps are done properly at a not-too-loud level, the thing just works. my setup is really good!! 








they were just suggestion andy ... (


----------



## kkant

bd5034 said:


> Will a MS-8 play nice with an audio control epicenter? The epicenter is purported to fill in the bass where it has been cut out on devices like the ipod or zune, and I assume the MS-8 can simply process that filler into something more palatable?


I wouldn't bother using an epicenter.

First of all, the bass problems reported from some ipods and other portables are due to them having caps on the output which rolls off the bass when driving low impedance headphones. That does not apply at all to any electrical aux input, which has impedance several orders of magnitude higher.

Second, you can use the graphic EQ on the MS8 to adjust the bass to your taste. So the epicenter would be pointless.


----------



## kkant

bd5034 said:


> Didn't alpine have an auto-tune feature before?


Yeah, which sucked.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

kkant said:


> Yeah, which sucked.


lol. I never said it was good, I just said it existed


----------



## thehatedguy

Andy when can we see some MS branded or GTi branded 3s?


----------



## dakine

After a couple months of re-tuning over and over I finally gave up on this thing and picked up a PPI DCX-730 like I have in my other car. The unit would have been a lot better if it allowed manual user adjustment after auto tuning. Time delay adjustment on individual channels, eq on individual channels, gain on individual channels..etc. I think it is a great unit for 95 percent of car audio enthusiasts and for 5.1, but for true stereo sound quality I would rather be able to manually tune myself (RF, Bit one, PPI etc). Great product for the marketed audience. If the PPI's display didn't crap out all the time I would never need another processor.


----------



## 14642

For those of you who are now curious about auto-tunes, I'll start a new thread with some information about that. We'll have another auto tune product in the market in a couple of months. It's called MS-2.

Basically, you plug the output of this thing into the aux input of your car, plug your iPod into the input of MS-2 and it tunes the car through the aux input and makes it sound great when you listen to your portable. No installation required. Offers the ability to turn TA on and off, adjust the level of the bass boost in three steps, adjust the transition band between bass and midrange and adjust the high frequency tilt. It's about the same size as a bar of soap. 

I suppose it could also be used in a 2-channel system between the head and the amp.


----------



## kkant

Sounds like an cool idea. Matter of fact, this would solve those bluetooth problems I bet. But you'd lose the logic 7 and time align.

When you start the new autotune thread please post a link to it here.


----------



## Fast1one

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> For those of you who are now curious about auto-tunes, I'll start a new thread with some information about that. We'll have another auto tune product in the market in a couple of months. It's called MS-2.
> 
> Basically, you plug the output of this thing into the aux input of your car, plug your iPod into the input of MS-2 and it tunes the car through the aux input and makes it sound great when you listen to your portable. No installation required. Offers the ability to turn TA on and off, adjust the level of the bass boost in three steps, adjust the transition band between bass and midrange and adjust the high frequency tilt. It's about the same size as a bar of soap.
> 
> I suppose it could also be used in a 2-channel system between the head and the amp.


OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You just talked me out of getting more external processing. This is EXACTLY what I wanted in a product. How long until its out?????????

Sorry for the excitement, but its really amazing that you guys are catering to those of us who don't have the change for a full blown MS-8 but already have crossover processing via a headunit.


----------



## subwoofery

Man I thought this thread was long... Check this one out 

Kelvin 

PS: unnecessary post I know lol


----------



## sniper5431

I am having some issues with my MS-8. Once I turned down the sweeps to like -35 everything sounds very nice. The issue i am having is that it seems to reboot once in awhile. Listne to two or three songs and it cycles power. Yes, the power connections are fine. The music actually stops playing then resumes after it appears to reboot. Another issue I see is the HMI to the the main unit seems to lose the ability to change things such as sound volume once in awhile. I can control volume for a few songs. Then all of a sudden it will not control volume. Yet the volume levels on the HMI show volume levels changes. Actual volume levels do not change. If I cycle remote power to the MS-8 base unit. All parameters work properly. Should I send this in for repair? The unit is mounted in the trunk where the subs live. Could this be an issue? Heat or cold is not an issue due to I live in Socal. Well, you know what that is like. The head unit to the MS-8 is an Alpine 7909. I would like to get this resolved quickly if possible. Other than this the unit sounds very nice and is quite easy to use.


----------



## Duper

*Scary moment with my MS-8*

Long story, but thought I'd share in case anyone else has this randomly happen to them too... 

I was recalibrating my system from scratch just for the heck of it and went through a couple passes just fine but then all of a sudden I thought my system was going to literally explode.... here's my step by step recollection of the events as best I can remember them: 

1. I started the setup process and the MS-8 asked for the CD. I'm not sure if this matters, but I accidentally had the head unit (stock HU btw) set to my USB drive when it started to listen for the CD, no biggie I thought, I just switched over to the CD real quick. At the time, that didn't appear to matter because the MS-8 confirmed it could hear the CD fine (all OKs) so I clicked 'done' and let it 'aquire' the CD tones. So far, so good, or so I thought...
2. I then set the crossover frequencies close to default settings. Everything's OK...
3. Then I accidentally did the white noise on one speaker as I was scrolling down to done and there was a small pop, which I've never heard it do before, and then the normal white noise. But I quickly hit done because I knew I had the speakers configured right.
4. I moved on to the sweeps step where asks you to confirm the volume *but then all of a sudden it started making a rumbling / crackling / rolling thunder / jet engine sound* that got louder and louder until it was about as loud as I think the speakers could probably be. It literally scared the living daylights out of me and it didn't stop until I turned off the radio. It actually took a couple seconds after I turned off the radio because the MS-8 takes that long to turn off too. I turned on the radio again thinking it was just a glitch, but it did it again and at full blast waking every dog in the neighborhood! 
5. I unplugged all the RCAs from the amps (I left the rear and center speakers connected to the MS-8) and I turned the radio back on to see if it would do it again through just those speakers. It was making a low humming sound, like something was shorted (?), but it didn't sound like it would explode so I reset the MS-8 via the main menu screen. 


I reran the calibration a few more times and it's not doing the crazy sound anymore but my left front speakers were blown. 

The only thing that was different about this process than any other time I've done the calibration is what I mentioned in step 1 above - having some random song play through my car's USB port for the radio when it should have listened for the sweeps. I don't really know if that has anything to do with it or not, but thought it worth a mention. 

Anyway, that's my story - it's working fine now and hasn't happened again.


----------



## baylor

Is there an autherized dealer in Louisiana that I can buy this from and have it installed?

I would really like to have this, but want it done right by someone who knows what they are doing.

I have a really nice setup, but feel like its all out of tuned and im not getting the max out of my system.

I have a KENWOOD exellon 6960 DD. 4 Boston Accustic Pro 60 speakers. Powered by JL600/4 HD amp with 2 12" RF subs with custom box and a RF 800W amp to power them.

With all that said, something is missing.

Is there anyone in Louisiana that can make this setup come to life?


----------



## Wheres The Butta

*Re: Scary moment with my MS-8*



Duper said:


> Long story, but thought I'd share in case anyone else has this randomly happen to them too...


Duper, I don't know exactly what happened, but I wanted to ask if you're using an aftermarket head unit. You don't need to use the calibration CD with an aftermarket head unit, you can simply skip that portion of setup.


----------



## Duper

*Re: Scary moment with my MS-8*



bd5034 said:


> Duper, I don't know exactly what happened, but I wanted to ask if you're using an aftermarket head unit. You don't need to use the calibration CD with an aftermarket head unit, you can simply skip that portion of setup.


I'm actually using the stock head unit.


----------



## kaigoss69

Duper, did you have the mic plugged in? Google "jet engine sound ms-8", it may be the same thing albeit it normally happens after the calibration is completed and the mic is still plugged in.


----------



## Duper

kaigoss69 said:


> Duper, did you have the mic plugged in? Google "jet engine sound ms-8", it may be the same thing albeit it normally happens after the calibration is completed and the mic is still plugged in.


Thanks, and Andy PM'd me about this as well just a few minutes ago. Sorry to hear I wasn't the only one to hear the jet engine sound. 

BTW - The mute button on the remote will silence the jet engine sound if it starts to happen. I've got my finger on it now when I do the calibrations just in case.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

wow, duper your stock H/U has a USB in?


----------



## Duper

2011 Camaro 2SS RS 

But the HUD for the speedometer / tac / radio is the true cool little known feature in the 2011 Camaro.


----------



## sniper5431

sniper5431 said:


> I am having some issues with my MS-8. Once I turned down the sweeps to like -35 everything sounds very nice. The issue i am having is that it seems to reboot once in awhile. Listne to two or three songs and it cycles power. Yes, the power connections are fine. The music actually stops playing then resumes after it appears to reboot. Another issue I see is the HMI to the the main unit seems to lose the ability to change things such as sound volume once in awhile. I can control volume for a few songs. Then all of a sudden it will not control volume. Yet the volume levels on the HMI show volume levels changes. Actual volume levels do not change. If I cycle remote power to the MS-8 base unit. All parameters work properly. Should I send this in for repair? The unit is mounted in the trunk where the subs live. Could this be an issue? Heat or cold is not an issue due to I live in Socal. Well, you know what that is like. The head unit to the MS-8 is an Alpine 7909. I would like to get this resolved quickly if possible. Other than this the unit sounds very nice and is quite easy to use.


No one else is having this problem?


----------



## ja0879

after doing a little research I have read alot of different posts about the ms-8 really shining with a center channel what are some good ideas I have a 04 xtreme blazer I malready have a few amps laying around for power just not sure what kind os speakers and where a good place to build one would be I ve seen alot of center console builds but not sure if they were built to be a center channel any input is much appreciated


----------



## VP Electricity

ja0879 said:


> any input is much appreciated


OK... these keys are really cool:

, . / ; : ? 

In other input, are you asking for what speakers to use, or what center to use? MS-8 "wants" the center to be the same as the sides when possible... seems like a car question rather than an MS-8 question - if you start a thread on this you can get more vehicle-specific information.


----------



## 14642

sniper5431 said:


> No one else is having this problem?


Send an email to customer service through JBL - JBL Home Audio - JBL Car Audio - JBL Marine Audio - JBL Home Theater, Theater Systems, Speakers, Stereo, Electronics, Surround Sound Systems and we'll replace the unit.


----------



## rain27

Any more info on the MS-2?


----------



## sniper5431

Thank you Andy!


----------



## blownrunner

bd5034 said:


> I searched the thread for this, and found some information, but I feel that it didnt' entirely answer my question:
> 
> Will a MS-8 play nice with an audio control epicenter? The epicenter is purported to fill in the bass where it has been cut out on devices like the ipod or zune, and I assume the MS-8 can simply process that filler into something more palatable? The suggestion was that the epicenter was unneeded, and *possibly* incompatible (but this wasn't verified) but I have to ask - if the bass is missing to begin with due to a flawed format, how can it be bad to attempt to replace it?
> 
> The way I see it, it's like a sausage making process, where the epicenter produces the raw meat, and the MS-8 can turn it into sausage. Am I wrong? I ask this specifically because I already have an epicenter sitting in my workshop, collecting dust.


I am running an epicenter (the model without the 2nd set of inputs) with the MS-8, and I have no problems and it works nice when listening to music that is missing the low bass information. However, I need to use it less now than without the MS-8. I opened the epicenter's cover and moved the jumper to reduce the bass restoration effect when the dial is turned. I also adjusted the sweep and center adjustment knobs using an RTA (adjusted visually) to get a flat bass response when using it. I tried just setting it by ear, but it didn't sound right, so I believe using a RTA makes setting it up much easier and enables higher results. If the epicenter's adjustments aren't set up correctly, the bass increase will sound a little weird.

I already had one installed in my system, so it is something that I do not think that you will necessarily need however. Just saying that I didn't have any compatibility issues with it.

Just my experience.


----------



## blownrunner

dakine said:


> After a couple months of re-tuning over and over I finally gave up on this thing and picked up a PPI DCX-730 like I have in my other car. The unit would have been a lot better if it allowed manual user adjustment after auto tuning. Time delay adjustment on individual channels, eq on individual channels, gain on individual channels..etc. I think it is a great unit for 95 percent of car audio enthusiasts and for 5.1, but for true stereo sound quality I would rather be able to manually tune myself (RF, Bit one, PPI etc). Great product for the marketed audience. If the PPI's display didn't crap out all the time I would never need another processor.


Wow, after me using an MS-8, I am surprised that someone would still want all those adjustments that you mentioned. I have had a good experience with it, and like how it still has minimal manual adjustments on it like the EQ and tone controls. After trying to manually tune my car for years, I achieved better results with the MS-8. Incredible that you are able to tune better manually than this thing can. With my experience and ability as a reference, I don't see how that is possible.

Rather, I still believe that using optimal speaker placements/angles will increase SQ in addition to the MS-8. While the MS-8 is a miracle worker, there are still a few things that the installer can do for the end result.


----------



## blownrunner

Spring Break Nationals is coming up in March, giving the MS-8 it's first real chance in the big-time spotlight at a major competition. Everyone now has the opportunity to get their hands on one... I suspect that a few of the competitors will be using it, so I am eager to know what happens at trophy time.

As for myself, I attended a SQ competition locally here in Florida. I scored about 30 points higher is the SQ section of judging with the MS-8 making zero changes to it's auto-tune than I was ever able to achieve without it.

Just saying...


----------



## 14642

That's interesting. I just checked out the owner's manual for the DCX 730. In a very basic 2-channel system, the EQ is pretty similar. The 730 allows 7 bands of parametric EQ per channel. MS-8 uses 8 per channel. The difference is that the 730 allows you to use standard frequency, gain and Q adjustments. The MS-8 doesn't allow you to manually adjust the parameters of the filters, but the 8 parametric bands can be ANY shape. That means that MS-8 isn't bound by the traditional frequency, Q and gain parameters. 

MS-8 uses an impulse response measurement to determine the location of the first big peak in that measurement. Then, it backs up until the response is 12dB down and sets the delays for that point. This better approximates the arrival time of speakers that don't provide much high frequency response compared to just picking the top of the peak. The amount of high frequency in the measurement determines the slope of the line, and more high frequency makes the peak more pronounced. Any of you who have tried to determine arrival times with an impulse response measurement have undoubtedly seen this, especially for subs. The impulse looks like a big hump. The initial arrival of sound from low-passed speakers is NOT the top of the hump. Delaying the rest of the system to meet the top of the hump of the subwoofer is unnecessary and just chews up processing power. In fact, it isn't necessary to consider the arrival time of the sub in a car. However, if your sub amp includes some additional DSP that introduces a delay, adding delay to the rest of the speakers manually can be beneficial. 

Since both processors operate at 48k, the resolution of the delay adjustments is the same--that's determined by the number of samples per second. A one sample delay at 48k is .238 inches.

MS-8 follows a set of rules to tune the car. If you tune with the 730 (or any other manual processor) you're still bound by some rules (consider the frequency, Q and gain example above), but not by others. If your system includes something that MS-8 can't deal with, then tuning manually may give you better results. Putting one midrange out of phase to "fix" the center image is one of those things. MS-8 HATES that and will sound terrible if you do this. There won't be any midbass, but the delay adjustment will provide a decent center image, anyway. If you don't like MS-8's target curve and the 31-band EQ doesn't provide enough range to change it to something you do like, then manual tuning may make you happier.


----------



## thehatedguy

Andy when talking about spreading the chaos around and dispersion, would it be beneficial to go from a 1" tweeter to a 3/4" tweeter to further move beaming up in frequency? Reason I ask is I am tweeter shopping now and can't make up my mind which way to go as I have found a few of each that I like.


----------



## kkant

thehatedguy said:


> would it be beneficial to go from a 1" tweeter to a 3/4" tweeter to further move beaming up in frequency? Reason I ask is I am tweeter shopping now and can't make up my mind which way to go as I have found a few of each that I like.


I would suggest the 1", because usually they extend lower. That will allow you to cut off your mids lower, which will decrease cone breakup problems (and allow the mids to disperse better). Ears are much more sensitive in the mids than up at 20k.


----------



## thehatedguy

Right now I have the midranges at 3500 and the tweeters coming in at 4k. I have a 3 way fronts and center. As of now playing the tweeter real low isn't a concern and 3500 is well below where my midranges would start to beam or have combfiltering (2 Whispers used as midranges).


----------



## kkant

thehatedguy said:


> Right now I have the midranges at 3500 and the tweeters coming in at 4k. I have a 3 way fronts and center. As of now playing the tweeter real low isn't a concern and 3500 is well below where my midranges would start to beam or have combfiltering (2 Whispers used as midranges).


4k is low enough that I would use a 1" if I were you. Why limit your linear range when you don't have to. You probably need to bring those tweets down to 3500 too, or find some mids that fly up to 4k. My experience has been that trying to "underlap" like this is a band-aid that covers up midrange breakup problems. Yes you can broadly EQ that whole range down to avoid the painful breakups/resonances, but then you are missing that part of the music.


----------



## thehatedguy

Well I did the underlap because it created the best power response (and got a flat FR too) according to my simulations. The Whispers are flat to 15k but using two of them I get some comb filtering at about 4500 hertz. I think I am going to redo the passives with an odd order slope to get the primary lobe facing me since the mids and tweeters are pretty much horizontal.

But I do get what you are saying about not limiting my range...and it is something that I have also been thinking about too- a long with the dispersion idea.


----------



## kkant

One thing to consider is going active with steep slopes. Seems like it will reduce the problem space a bit.


----------



## 14642

The benefit at high frequencies isn't important. There ain't much to hear above 15kHz.


----------



## subwoofery

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The benefit at high frequencies isn't important. There ain't much to hear above 15kHz.


You mean there's no benefit in spreading the chaos in the Highs?

Kelvin


----------



## Fast1one

kkant said:


> 4k is low enough that I would use a 1" if I were you. Why limit your linear range when you don't have to. You probably need to bring those tweets down to 3500 too, or find some mids that fly up to 4k. My experience has been that trying to "underlap" like this is a band-aid that covers up midrange breakup problems. Yes you can broadly EQ that whole range down to avoid the painful breakups/resonances, but then you are missing that part of the music.


4 khz too low for a 3/4" dome? This isn't 1985, there are definitely a few options for that size that can play as low as 3khz, some of them being VERY affordable: Zaph|Audio - 4" Bargain Mini

Surely if the Aura NT1 at a mere $12.25 a pop can do 3khz acoustic 4th order, other large format tweeters can do the same. 

If it were me with whispers, I would try to design an MTM format using the Aura NT1 crossed around 3-4khz. I was going to go that route, but lost interest.


----------



## kkant

Fast1one said:


> 4 khz too low for a 3/4" dome? This isn't 1985, there are definitely a few options for that size that can play as low as 3khz, some of them being VERY affordable: Zaph|Audio - 4" Bargain Mini


That is a low volume computer monitor that you are going to hear in a quiet home. In a car you need to turn the volume up much higher. Unless you plan to listen with the engine off in your garage.

Hell, I can get a 2mm driver that plays clean down to 20hz. As long as it is sealed up in my ear canal, up against my eardrum. It's all about context.


----------



## thehatedguy

Um, I would need another amp to go active between the midranges and the tweeters...and I already use 10 of the 12 channels I have. The MS8 won't support everything now to be active on each speaker I have...I mean that would be 9 channels for the front and center alone. Then I have rears and sub.

I dunno...some of my favorite tweeters are Hiquphons and they'll **** and get in the car.

I may still get a set of the Dayton 3/4" frear mounts just because they are cheap and clean as hell from 4k and up. Not to mention $8 each. Supposed to be Morel-ish in sound too.


----------



## rommelrommel

The epicenter greatly predates portable mp3 players.

It looks for higher order harmonics and uses them to calculate what notes would have caused those harmonics and then generates them. It was originally marketed as a way to "get back" the bass that wasn't recorded well in old recordings. Most if not all had a subsonic filter as well. 

I wouldn't bother with one but if you want what it does...


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> Um, I would need another amp to go active between the midranges and the tweeters...and I already use 10 of the 12 channels I have. The MS8 won't support everything now to be active on each speaker I have...I mean that would be 9 channels for the front and center alone. Then I have rears and sub.
> 
> I dunno...some of my favorite tweeters are Hiquphons and they'll **** and get in the car.
> 
> I may still get a set of the Dayton 3/4" frear mounts just because they are cheap and clean as hell from 4k and up. Not to mention $8 each. Supposed to be Morel-ish in sound too.


Since you are using JL's D class, I guess you could use the Kenwood XR-4S if you need to power your tweets and mids coz it has nice Xovers. 

Kelvin


----------



## kkant

thehatedguy said:


> Um, I would need another amp to go active between the midranges and the tweeters...and I already use 10 of the 12 channels I have. The MS8 won't support everything now to be active on each speaker I have...I mean that would be 9 channels for the front and center alone. Then I have rears and sub.


9 channels on the front sounds about right to me.  Three extra amp channels and an offboard active xover and you're set. I imagine you've already put a lot of time and money into this...what's a couple hundred give or take.


----------



## Fast1one

kkant said:


> That is a low volume computer monitor that you are going to hear in a quiet home. In a car you need to turn the volume up much higher. Unless you plan to listen with the engine off in your garage.
> 
> Hell, I can get a 2mm driver that plays clean down to 20hz. As long as it is sealed up in my ear canal, up against my eardrum. It's all about context.


Uhhhh, have you HEARD it? The reason I suggested that tweeter is because I've BUILT that design before and I can attest to zaphs designs. Its very rare that his designs will run out of steam in the tweeter section, its usually the woofer that has its limitations down low, as expected.

Anyway, I had no problem powering them in my HT setup with a highpass crossover at 120hz and 100 watts of power. A little rework and you can create a passive crossover instead of going active.


----------



## kkant

Fast1one said:


> Uhhhh, have you HEARD it? The reason I suggested that tweeter is because I've BUILT that design before and I can attest to zaphs designs.


OK--stick it in the car and turn up the volume. Drive around and see how it sounds when it has to overcome road noise.


----------



## Fast1one

kkant said:


> OK--stick it in the car and turn up the volume. Drive around and see how it sounds when it has to overcome road noise.


You're the one with the doubts, why don't you do it? I don't have time for those kind of experiments anymore. But even still, my experience with that tweeter indicates that it would work well without any issues above 3khz. And if it doesn't, 3.5khz would work just fine. 

I will say that my current home setup uses a 6.5 " woofer with a 3/4" dome tweeter on a fairly shallow waveguide. Crossover point is 2.3khz and I run out of amplifier headroom (100 x 2 watt dedicated 2 channel amplifier) before significant distortion takes place in the midrange. The woofer in the ported alignment ran full range runs out of headroom WELL before the midrange will. I have stereo subs to mitigate that issue though and it more than suits my needs. Look up B2030P for reviews if you're not convinced...

More info of the MS-2 Andy? I PM'd you about it...


----------



## thehatedguy

I just don't see the point in going active between the mids and tweeters that are crossed so high and placed so close together. It's not like I could something active that I couldn't do passive in this given setup...unless I added another processor or two and another amp. Then we are talking a grand in electronics.

I've used Hiquphons in an old car. I think they were around 2.5k at 24 dB, and I can promise you I listened to more than girl with guitar music at levels louder than you would in the house. And they did pretty good. I'm not sticking a large format tweeter in my pillars though, and they won't fit in the sail panels.

If only I could shrink either a Hiquphon OW1, a Scan 9700, or a Seas Millennium into a semicompact chassis I would be happy. Then again, I did love my Scan Ring Revelators too...on axis.


----------



## eviling

hey, just making sure, i'm pretty sure it can, but it can use all 8 channels right? like an active 3 way, and a center channel and a SUb right?


----------



## Duper

eviling said:


> hey, just making sure, i'm pretty sure it can, but it can use all 8 channels right? like an active 3 way, and a center channel and a SUb right?


Yep, that's definitely a config you can do.


----------



## vactor

eviling said:


> hey, just making sure, i'm pretty sure it can, but it can use all 8 channels right? like an active 3 way, and a center channel and a SUb right?


that's exactly how i did it in my infiniti. see here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-member-build-logs/96671-g37-sedan-ms8-full-system-install.html


----------



## eviling

vactor said:


> that's exactly how i did it in my infiniti. see here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-member-build-logs/96671-g37-sedan-ms8-full-system-install.html


yeah i've looked at your gear, you run some nice stuff, wish i had the GEN 2 pdxs, i run the first gen, i hear the 2nd's are a pretty large improvment, but just not worth retail, i cant find any of the 2nd gens below msrp.


----------



## KenNorton

I'm sorry if this question already answered in this lengthy thread.

I find no space to put the center channel on the dash. it will block the multi-function display and the contour is too difficult to deal with.

So, I plan to install the DIN size center channel speaker like this alpine.

I need advice whether it is a good idea especially with speaker placement issue.


----------



## t3sn4f2

KenNorton said:


> I'm sorry if this question already answered in this lengthy thread.
> 
> I find no space to put the center channel on the dash. it will block the multi-function display and the contour is too difficult to deal with.
> 
> So, I plan to install the DIN size center channel speaker like this alpine.
> 
> I need advice whether it is a good idea especially with speaker placement issue.


Do you have a picture of the dash area, maybe there is another way.


----------



## KenNorton

t3sn4f2 said:


> Do you have a picture of the dash area, maybe there is another way.


it's a pug307.


----------



## KenNorton

cajunner said:


> maybe a pair of these
> 
> Aurasound NS2x3-184-4A 2" x 3" Full Range - 4 ohm
> 
> would do some good, in a 1.5 way with vented enclosure, the port between the speaker fronts.
> 
> would get up nice, and if Patrick Bateman's measurements of the whispers are correct, the Fo of these is closer to sub 200 hz, meaning with a port you could get them down to usable output at 180 hz or so in paired configuration along with >85 db sensitivity at 1 watt, which with the proximity to the listener and ~30 degrees off-axis, equates to a regular 5.25" in the doors in relative loudness capability, especially with the dual voice coils taking heat you could power them with 50 watts RMS, easily..
> 
> on second thought, you'd have to go sealed with the width being exactly 7 inches across if you overlap the mounting rim on the outsides.
> 
> 2" X 7" DIN opening, fully fitted with cones.
> 
> I bet it wouldn't sound half bad. Build the enclosure out of ABS plastic with plastic-weld epoxy, throw some color coordinated grill cloth, fill the enclosure with poly fill, and power it with an MS-8's internal amp at 2 ohms, giving 30 watts RMS.


Nice advice and cheap speaker too. 

Have you checked the alpine's fr is 150-30,000hz and 50 watt rms + tweeter? and it's a plug n' play.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Personally I'd relocate the multi function display to the area where you were planning on putting the center channel and do the center channel up there in it's place. I think that's a much better location, even if all that will fit up there is a 3" and tweeter or just an 3" that will play the higher range well. You can also go with couple of 2" and a tweeter if that dash space is limited in depth (ie front of dash to back of dash).

_I_ would not use a center channel in _that_ head unit location. _Seems_ to be too close and low.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Someone here even made a dash pod for some Anthony Gallo Micro Ti 3" that sit on that dash area and fire down the center of the car. Didn't look bad at all.


----------



## KenNorton

t3sn4f2 said:


> Personally I'd relocate the multi function display to the area where you were planning on putting the center channel and do the center channel up there in it's place. I think that's a much better location, even if all that will fit up there is a 3" and tweeter or just an 3" that will play the higher range well. You can also go with couple of 2" and a tweeter if that dash space is limited in depth (ie front of dash to back of dash).


I've never thought of this before. 
I'll review again for any other aspects on this.
Thanks!


> _I_ would not use a center channel in _that_ head unit location. _Seems_ to be too close and low.


I am thinking the same thing and hoping someone convince me that MS8 will compensate for me.


----------



## KenNorton

how about the sun-glass holder at the roof? is it an ideal location?


----------



## rawdawg

I've sat in a truck with the Alpine piece mated with horns. Even with the mismatch in efficiencies, the system was brutally dynamic.


----------



## subwoofery

rawdawg said:


> I've sat in a truck with the Alpine piece mated with horns. Even with the mismatch in efficiencies, the system was brutally dynamic.


Which Alpine piece? 

Kelvin


----------



## rawdawg

This one...



KenNorton said:


> So, I plan to install the DIN size center channel speaker like this alpine.


----------



## t3sn4f2

rawdawg said:


> I've sat in a truck with the Alpine piece mated with horns. Even with the mismatch in efficiencies, the system was brutally dynamic.


_I would think_ that that depends greatly on the staging of the track. Put a center stage drum solo on that system and I can't see those dynamics being maintained.


----------



## yuri

t3sn4f2 said:


> Someone here even made a dash pod for some Anthony Gallo Micro Ti 3" that sit on that dash area and fire down the center of the car. Didn't look bad at all.


me 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-member-build-logs/87243-unusual-2way-install.html


----------



## xx24xx

So I'm using the Alpine Imprint right now. I have an 'sql setup' with Digital Designs components, amps, and a sub. My BIG problem is Alpine's EQ absolutely kills the bass. The Imprint sounds pretty good, most of the time but I'm sick of having to turn off the Imprint to stop it from crippling the bass levels I like when I want to turn it up to it's full potential. It even takes 2-4 seconds to turn on/off and between EQ curves.

So the question is: Does the MS-8 cripple the bass?


----------



## Diffeomorphism

I tried searching for this but my queries returned no pertinent results. I'm curious as to if when using a stock h/u you are to use front L/F inputs and sub input only (for a total of 3) and front L/F input only (total of 2) for an aftermarket h/u, why then does the MS-8 have 8 inputs?

Also, if you can use the sub signal from a stock h/u, why can you not do the same with a sub out from an aftermarket h/u?




xx24xx said:


> So the question is: Does the MS-8 cripple the bass?


No. Even after going through the tuning, if you find the bass to be 'crippled' you can increase sub frequencies with the MS-8's eq.


----------



## KenNorton

Diffeomorphism said:


> I tried searching for this but my queries returned no pertinent results. I'm curious as to if when using a stock h/u you are to use front L/F inputs and sub input only (for a total of 3) and front L/F input only (total of 2) for an aftermarket h/u, why then does the MS-8 have 8 inputs?
> 
> Also, if you can use the sub signal from a stock h/u, why can you not do the same with a sub out from an aftermarket h/u?


see page 164


----------



## mine4118

dang....took forever to read but a lot of great info...


----------



## Diffeomorphism

KenNorton said:


> see page 164


Thank you! That at least answers one question. I wonder if it's designed hardware-wise to handle information and calculations on 8 individual inputs. If so, I then wonder if there would be any benefit to processing 8 inputs verses 2.

Getting close to finally having this thing installed. It's been a s-l-o-w project.


----------



## KenNorton

Diffeomorphism said:


> Thank you! That at least answers one question. I wonder if it's designed hardware-wise to handle information and calculations on 8 individual inputs. If so, I then wonder if there would be any benefit to processing 8 inputs verses 2.
> 
> Getting close to finally having this thing installed. It's been a s-l-o-w project.


If 2 inputs already cover all of the frequency, I don't see any reason to use more.

good luck with your installation.


----------



## 14642

No matter what you put in, it'll make as close to a full-range stereo signal as possible. An impulse response is measured and the signals are aligned in time and polarity. Then, input signals that are mono are low-passed and added to both channels. Left inputs are combined and right inputs are combined. Then they're EQed. If the factory system includes a bunch of delay on the rear channels (which is quite common), then ALL channels are delayed to match those. That's pointless and chews up processing power. 

If you want to run the subwoofer output of aftermarket your radio into MS-8, you can, but for what reason? MS-8's subwoofer level control will sound much better. If you require the use of the sub level control on your head, despite the poorer performance, then go for it. There's NO need to add the rear inputs.


----------



## Diffeomorphism

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No matter what you put in, it'll make as close to a full-range stereo signal as possible.


I was facetiously suggesting at processing more than a stereo mix in the future via update if the hardware was originally designed to process that much data. I realize this is irrelevant as the unit doesn't decode proprietary formats.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy,

there have been some issues - like BT echo and others - that I would have thought would have been addressed by now through a FW update. There have also been some very good improvement suggestions (see separate thread) that could be relatively easy to include just through a SW update (e.g. MS-8 checking/verifying sweep volume levels). I for one have not seen any mention of any such bug fixes and/or improvements being addressed in a future FW update. Are you guys working on a FW update and exactly what changes are being addressed? Thanks, and keep up the good work!


----------



## Duper

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> There's NO need to add the rear inputs.


My stock system sends the sounds for my my back up sensors to my rear speakers only. If I want to use them, I'll need to plug them into my MS-8. 

I used this adapter to get Front and Rear RCAs (instead of the high-level speaker L&R channels) to my MS-8 and my back up sensors came back but then I developed a turn off thump. Hmph :mean:


----------



## 14642

Duper said:


> My stock system sends the sounds for my my back up sensors to my rear speakers only. If I want to use them, I'll need to plug them into my MS-8.
> 
> I used this adapter to get Front and Rear RCAs (instead of the high-level speaker L&R channels) to my MS-8 and my back up sensors came back but then I developed a turn off thump. Hmph :mean:


Chris,
Does MS-8 turn your factory amp on? If not, connect the rem out of the head to MS-8's rem in and MS-8's rem out to the remote input of the factory amp. That may fix the thump.


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> Andy,
> 
> there have been some issues - like BT echo and others - that I would have thought would have been addressed by now through a FW update. There have also been some very good improvement suggestions (see separate thread) that could be relatively easy to include just through a SW update (e.g. MS-8 checking/verifying sweep volume levels). I for one have not seen any mention of any such bug fixes and/or improvements being addressed in a future FW update. Are you guys working on a FW update and exactly what changes are being addressed? Thanks, and keep up the good work!


We're testing a BT update now. It's a simple one--the mute button turns off processing. It appears to work in many cars, but not all cars.


----------



## bhaycraft

Hoping it works in the Ford Expedition Nav head units.


----------



## bhaycraft

Question Andy about to put in my MS-8 that I got awhile back. Ford Expedition EL (Extended Length) Running active system with. 3 1/2 on A pillars and 6 1/2 center channel and 6 1/2 in the doors all 4 doors and then another set of 3 1/2 in upper rear D pillars plus one sub in JL stealthbox on back side. When tuning best to shut off the door speakers in second row but yet have them receive feed from front 6 1/2 door speakers or something else. Thanks


----------



## brianhj

I really wish there was a good comparison of the unit to the auto-tuning features of the p99rs or alpine imprint. I know some have mentioned it but there hasn't been a really good review that I've seen yet. I have the p99rs now, and the auto-tune is OK.. i've tried auto network and custom network and different speaker positions and different crossover settings and it just comes out sounding so thin and harsh. And the stage seems to be so narrow. Now the alpine imprint system i had with my 9887 did make an awesome stage, but again sounded rather "thin" and not full.

I'm very interested in the MS-8 I just wish I could hear an in-depth comparison from someone who has used other auto-tune devices.


----------



## katodevin

I have a p99rs in 1 car, and a ms8 in another. Both of these systems are running 3 way stereo in front, and a sub in the back.

The ms8's tuning is better. Imaging is better across the board. Only weak points vs the p88rs is that it is more sensitive to tuning volume, and the midbass is a bit weaker after a tune.


----------



## brianhj

Every system I've used kills the midbass and bass. That's a concern, too. Thank you for the reply though!


----------



## katodevin

brianhj said:


> Every system I've used kills the midbass and bass. That's a concern, too. Thank you for the reply though!


Yep. The ms-8 easily gets it back with a tiny bit of tweaking to the eq. 

I personally am using the ms-8 with a p880rs, and I just flip the BBE back on after the tune at mild -2 setting. Midbass comes back really well.


----------



## big_ears

Has anyone come across a bad MS-8 or headphone Mic? 

I recently got my systems hardware kinks worked out (new rear speakers as a voice coil was going, new 4 channel amp as 1 channel went on old one, new HU as Stock upgrade) and now it's clear the my MS-8 is tuning heavily to the right every time. I've tried the sweeps at reasonable volumes to pretty low volumes (usually -43 to -40 but as low as -50 yesterday) and the tune is always super right (in front position to test with pink noise, it should be even). It sounds to the right in all positions (D,P,F,R,A) and in Logic 7. It's always been this way and I've had it for 6 months and tuned it a lot (guessing 50 times). With MS-8 processing off it's dead even.

I know volume of sweeps matters to tuning, but I've tried so many volumes so it shouldn't be that. Just emailed JBL last night but was wondering if any one here knows anything useful. I'm left thinking it's warranty time.

P.S. - What's the recommended db level for sweeps? Just got good 2 SPL meter Apps for ipod. I know the answer is in this thread somewhere but I was just searching for this thread for MS-8 with the search function and it said no results. I had to get here from searching my emails. Already asking a different question and the answer to this one should be short.


----------



## hallsc

For the tuning, I don't know how severely this is pulling right, but in the MS-8 Tips thread they said towards the side the stage is pulling when doing the tuning. In your case, move to the right during the tuning process, I guess as much as you can comfortably can (6 inches?), it's supposed to move the stage to the opposite side. If this doesn't change anything, ands the rest of your system has been ruled out, I would consider the mic/MS-8 issue. If I remember correctly, volume should not be higher than 85 dB for the tuning. Hope this helps.


----------



## big_ears

hallsc - yeah I tried that tip leaning to the right. It seemed to help a little bit, but I wasn't thrilled with the results of that either. Plus it's pretty off. To make it sound about balanced I put it four clicks to the left. It seems it should be better than that without having to resort to tricks to make it even. thanks for the advice and the db info.


----------



## quality_sound

Have you tried contacting Andy here?


----------



## big_ears

No I didn't try to contact Andy ( I assume your asking me) . I just figured I post on this thread and see if anyone had any similar experience. I don't know how to contact him or really who he is (obviously a moderator, MS-8 expert, or similar). If you think its a good idea I could, but I'm certainly not trying to bother people with my problem. I just figured I'd roll the dice and see if anyone who happens to see my post had any pertinent knowledge. I'm thinking it's a warranty issue and don't want to waste anyone's time. At the same time if someone could save me from dealing with the whole warranty process if, it's not necessary, that would be much appreciated. Just don't know what that could possibly be. I've tried calibration many times with good practices (low volume, holding my breath for sweeps for absolute silence). If there's a reset button that might be a good thing for me to try (actually haven't looked into it, probably should look at that manual again).


----------



## t3sn4f2

User: Andy Wehmeyer 

"Global Product Line Manager, JBL Car Audio
Harman Consumer"


----------



## big_ears

Ta Dow! OK, he should know what's up;


How do you contact him?




Thanks for the answer below t3sn4f2.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Yeah, go to the contact tab.

DIYMA.com - View Profile: Andy Wehmeyer


----------



## Kiong34

Would like to check.

Where do you guys hear the vocal/singer location using MS-8? Center of windscreen or Top of steering wheel.

I find the vocal right in front of me (on top of steering wheel).

Is this normal?


----------



## Duper

big_ears said:


> Ta Dow! OK, he should know what's up;
> 
> 
> How do you contact him?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the answer below t3sn4f2.


Have you reset the ms8 from the main menu (under system settings)?

I measured the sweeps with one of those radio shack spl meeters and 85db sounded way too loud to me. It's supposed to be at speaking volumes. Do we speak at 85db? Not sure how the 85db thing got started but I've seen it repeated many times here. If you remeasure with an spl meter, let us know what you think is a reasonable volume.


----------



## big_ears

Duper, 85db is not that loud, at least not by my tests. I've been using the more sensitive (reports stuff as louder) SPL App I have for my ipod (SignalScope Pro). Just with me talking at a normal volume with the Mic by my ear results in a peak db past 90 db and max about 80 db. I did the sweeps with peak showing under 85db peak (about 80db peak 70db max).

Beyond that, reseting to system defaults seemed to basically work. The balance was much more even except the high end hiss from the pink noise playing was louder on the left channel, the channel that was too quiet before. I was about to calibrate again to see if I could get it sounding more even in the high end when I lost power from low voltage (car not driven much lately). Bought a battery charger, went back to store to exchange it, now finally got my battery charging. When fully charged (light turns green) will see if I can get it sounding right. I actually see a voltage of 12.6 on the Cap in my trunk but probably should wait for the green (tiny a$$ charger). 

Was pretty surprised the reset actually seemed to work. I've re-entered set up info and recalibrated soooo many times. I think I'll be reseting it all the time now if recalibrating.


----------



## Duper

Glad that worked for you!


----------



## 14642

It seems to me that there could be a couple of problems, Mr.Ears. The first is that the sweeps may be too loud. I know you've tried at every conceivable level. Before you flame me, please check the following: 

1. At what input voltage setting are your amp gains and what amps are they? Try setting them ALL --EVEN THE BASS AMP at 2V. Then calibrate at -40
2. Be certain that you don't have any bridge switches flipped on your high amp.

If all that is correct, then be sure you have the channels mapped correctly. they are numbered across rather than up and down. Doesn't matter on the input, but it does on the output. If you had a front and rear reversed, this would happen and if you mapped one tweeter as a mid rather than a tweeter, this would also happen.


----------



## big_ears

Oh the sweet taste of the fruit of aural nirvana! epper:

Andy thanks so much, it seems my active front gains were were the culprit. I knew having them too high could make the amps clip but I had no idea it could some how skew the balance in conjunction with the MS-8. I had them turned up midway-ish + , on my Arc Audio KS amps gains. My front L/R speakers are my best ones (HAT L6, L1 Pro) so I had the gains up a little to make them more dominant; I also felt the 90 watts I have on my rear HAT imagine 6's made them to loud, the sound stage sounded too far to the rear. This time is sounds fine, the rears don't sound too loud. I've tried it exactly how it is before, all gains at min, calibrated sweeps at 40 before, but maybe not both conditions at same time. I don't know, it sounds good and rears are not too loud, I'll take it.

Should all channels produce sound at equal SPL during speaker identification / sweeps? At minimum gain my fronts sound too quiet, so I adjusted them to be more even,. Also, I would normally start like this and adjust the tweeter gain to my liking of brightens (of course re-tuning after adjustment). Is this necessary or advisable? By the way, how high can you turn MS-8 up before it clips signal -5 or so, or higher?


----------



## Kiong34

Kiong34 said:


> Would like to check.
> 
> Where do you guys hear the vocal/singer location using MS-8? Center of windscreen or Top of steering wheel.
> 
> I find the vocal right in front of me (on top of steering wheel).
> 
> Is this normal?


no answer????


----------



## rockinridgeline

Look here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/85136-ms-8-tips-tricks-thread.html


----------



## rain27

Kiong34 said:


> no answer????


It's right in front of me at about eye level. I think speaker placement has a bit to do with it as well. My tweeters are in the a-pillars.


----------



## Kiong34

I am running 2 way active with one sub with 4channel amp and mono block.

Just tried tuning. Only tune driver and passenger seat.
I look at the centre of wind screen at both seats. Now I got very clear and focus vocal at driver side but wide vocal on passenger side.

Is it possible to get focus vocal coming from center of wind screen for both seats.


----------



## BigRed

Not without a center


----------



## subwoofery

Kiong34 said:


> I am running 2 way active with one sub with 4channel amp and mono block.
> 
> Just tried tuning. Only tune driver and passenger seat.
> I look at the centre of wind screen at both seats. Now I got very clear and focus vocal at driver side but wide vocal on passenger side.
> 
> Is it possible to get focus vocal coming from center of wind screen for both seats.


Yes, you need to install a center channel. That's the only way 

Kelvin


----------



## Duper

subwoofery said:


> Yes, you need to install a center channel. That's the only way
> 
> Kelvin


Why would you get good center focus in one seat and not the other?


----------



## Duper

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Chris,
> Does MS-8 turn your factory amp on? If not, connect the rem out of the head to MS-8's rem in and MS-8's rem out to the remote input of the factory amp. That may fix the thump.


Andy, I must have missed your reply... 
When using that adapter, the stock amp is completely bypassed altogether (it's completely unplugged and was removed from the car) yet I still got the thump.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Duper said:


> Why would you get good center focus in one seat and not the other?


Spacetime


----------



## subwoofery

Duper said:


> Why would you get good center focus in one seat and not the other?


The MS-8 uses T/A and levels and other algorithms to get good focus. T/A used to center your soundstage can only work for 1 seat. 
Now with a center, there's no need to center your soundstage since only hard L and hard R informations are going to be sent to your front sides. 
The center will be well at the center - focus can only be excellent with a center channel. 

Kelvin


----------



## hallsc

t3sn4f2 said:


> Spacetime


I don't like being the "Best something ever" guy, but this was pretty close to the best response ever.


----------



## tdrcrew

Hello everybody,

I got my MS-8 installed yesterday. Can't say I'm really impressed thus far. My installer did some quick tuning and the sound was horrible! My clock radio sounded better, mids were really piercing my ears. Harsh and hollow... Humb thump boom boom boom on the subs was driving me crazy.

So, I went back and they tuned it a bit better and now the sound is acceptable but still not the way I'm used in my other car. I have an Audison VRX for the fronts and rears (Polk), a kenwood amp for the Orion H2 sub. I'm currently using the factory Seat HU (I have a Seat Ibiza FR Bocanegra).

I really miss the warmth that I used to have with only the Audison and my kenwood HU. Also, it sounds overly processed as if you are listening to a bad MP3. Using an audio cd (instead of MP3 cd/usb/ipod) does seem to help a bit.

I did skimp through some topics but most of the conversations I can't really follow because of the lack of knowledge on this topic 

Don't get me wrong, it probably is a great product but it has been said before it is not for everybody. I also don't know how to make it sound better and it is also hard to explain what I'm missing. 

I guess I will just have to listen to it a few days and decide what to do. Might be that I'll just throw the thing out and go back to the situation I had in my old car.

Either way, it is really frustrating especially if you don't have the skills to work it out yourself. It might be the HU or perhaps the difference in accoustic between this car and my previous one. I really don't have a clue and I really hope I will find out.

Peter


----------



## vactor

re run the setup and make sure you are in a relatively quiet place and that the sweeps are NOT LOUD !!!!!!


----------



## tdrcrew

vactor said:


> re run the setup and make sure you are in a relatively quiet place and that the sweeps are NOT LOUD !!!!!!


Hi vactor,

Thanks for your reply. I will try that during the weekend. Do I need to adjust the volume on the ms8 or HU only during sweeps? Or change the gain on the amps? I really wouldn't know where to find that on the amps  I think I have seen this question before so I will look back.

I have to say that my installer did the calibration with the headphones instead of me so maybe that might be a problem too. That means I didn't actually see what they did and how it sounded (sweeps). I did look at the curve of de EQ and there is a big drop in the middle.

I'm just a little bit baffled by all this: if my installer can't get it right how am I supposed to get it right (I'm a noob on this subject)...

Thanks


----------



## Wheres The Butta

tdrcrew said:


> Hi vactor,
> 
> Thanks for your reply. I will try that during the weekend. Do I need to adjust the volume on the ms8 or HU only during sweeps? Or change the gain on the amps? I really wouldn't know where to find that on the amps  I think I have seen this question before so I will look back.
> 
> I have to say that my installer did the calibration with the headphones instead of me so maybe that might be a problem too. That means I didn't actually see what they did and how it sounded (sweeps). I did look at the curve of de EQ and there is a big drop in the middle.
> 
> I'm just a little bit baffled by all this: if my installer can't get it right how am I supposed to get it right (I'm a noob on this subject)...
> 
> Thanks


you can do it with our help and some patience.


----------



## Duper

How are you guys setting your crossover points and slopes to find the best setup? By ear w/ trial and error? Do you use the speaker manufacturer's crossover/slopes they use in their own crossovers? Do you stick around the stock settings from the MS-8? What's your process?


----------



## bhaycraft

Ok guys I did a brief search didn't find anything if I missed it please feel free to shoot me a link. Going to run MS-8 in Ford Expedition EL and using factory head. System will have 10 channels. Using H audio XR duo's 3.5's and 6.5's. I will have xr 3.5's in the A pillars and the upper rear D pillars. I will have XR 6.5's in the 4 doors and the center channel. Plus I have one JL stealthbox with one w3. Powering the system is one JL HD 900/5(or one XD 400/4 and one 600/1) and one JL XD 600/6. So when I run the tune I have 2 channels too many so when I run it leave the rear door 6.5 unplugged and let the tune complete. Then hook the rear doors back with Y rca's off the front L and R channel for the front doors. Is this the best way to run active and have 10 channels total. Let me have it. Thanks


----------



## vactor

tdrcrew said:


> Hi vactor,
> 
> Thanks for your reply. I will try that during the weekend. Do I need to adjust the volume on the ms8 or HU only during sweeps? Or change the gain on the amps? I really wouldn't know where to find that on the amps  I think I have seen this question before so I will look back.
> 
> I have to say that my installer did the calibration with the headphones instead of me so maybe that might be a problem too. That means I didn't actually see what they did and how it sounded (sweeps). I did look at the curve of de EQ and there is a big drop in the middle.
> 
> I'm just a little bit baffled by all this: if my installer can't get it right how am I supposed to get it right (I'm a noob on this subject)...
> 
> Thanks



put on headphones.
go into setup mo.
select "run calibration"
adjust MS-8 volume to about -34 
select start.
follow prompts

...
...
...
if the sweeps that you hear are louder than a quiet conversation you would have with someone sitting in the seat next to you, the results might be skewed. make sure the sweeps are relatively Quiet!!!


----------



## tdrcrew

vactor said:


> put on headphones.
> go into setup mo.
> select "run calibration"
> adjust MS-8 volume to about -34
> select start.
> follow prompts
> 
> ...
> ...
> ...
> if the sweeps that you hear are louder than a quiet conversation you would have with someone sitting in the seat next to you, the results might be skewed. make sure the sweeps are relatively Quiet!!!


That sounds like something I can do  Will that reset the 31 band EQ settings? If so, I will have to take note of the current settings. If the sweeps are louder I just adjust the volume to something lower than -34?

Thanks alot for your help!

Peter


----------



## Wheres The Butta

Duper said:


> How are you guys setting your crossover points and slopes to find the best setup? By ear w/ trial and error? Do you use the speaker manufacturer's crossover/slopes they use in their own crossovers? Do you stick around the stock settings from the MS-8? What's your process?


I am using the same crossover points I used before MS-8 with the exception of subwoofer. With subwoofer, I went from 60hz to 70hz. 

My original crossover points were gotten by taking the manufacturer's recommendations and then using a little trial and error to get where I wanted.


----------



## Duper

tdrcrew said:


> That sounds like something I can do  Will that reset the 31 band EQ settings? If so, I will have to take note of the current settings. If the sweeps are louder I just adjust the volume to something lower than -34?
> 
> Thanks alot for your help!
> 
> Peter


It won't reset any of your EQ settings. But they might not be optimal after the recalibration though. You can go into the favorites and save your current config as Favorite 5 so you always have it. Then play with different EQ settings, save them, and compare to the original EQ settings by recalling different Favorites on the fly. 

Please Note: Once you get bit by the tweaking bug, it's almost impossible to stop... you have been warned. :mean:


----------



## kaigoss69

tdrcrew said:


> That sounds like something I can do  Will that reset the 31 band EQ settings? If so, I will have to take note of the current settings. If the sweeps are louder I just adjust the volume to something lower than -34?
> 
> Thanks alot for your help!
> 
> Peter


Set the amp gains to 2V input sensitivity and start with -35 volume. If it is still louder than conversation level then lower the MS-8 volume. The sub sweep you should only hear but NOT feel.


----------



## unemployedconsumer

I wanted to add my two cents into this thread now that I have installed and run an ms8 with different set ups, along with helping a buddy install and set up his. 
I love the ms8, it has helped me hear what i have been missing. I just switched over to widebanders and even with Andy having some reservations about people going tweeterless, it sounds f'in awesome. Best set up I have had to date. 
I also wanted to state that you don't need a center or rears to get a great sound out of the processor as neither me or my buddy are currently running either (this doesn't mean i wont be messing around with them). A lot of information is going around like you won't be happy without them, which when properly set up, I don't think is true.
Also it seems like people are thinking speaker selection and mounting location don't really matter with an ms8. I have found the ms8 to make everything sound good, but improving location and swapping speakers have given me different results.


----------



## TPMS

just wondering if the new "QUANTUM LOGIC surround sound " by Harman is something familiar ..

Harman - GenevaMotorShow2011


----------



## sniper5431

sniper5431 said:


> I am having some issues with my MS-8. Once I turned down the sweeps to like -35 everything sounds very nice. The issue i am having is that it seems to reboot once in awhile. Listne to two or three songs and it cycles power. Yes, the power connections are fine. The music actually stops playing then resumes after it appears to reboot. Another issue I see is the HMI to the the main unit seems to lose the ability to change things such as sound volume once in awhile. I can control volume for a few songs. Then all of a sudden it will not control volume. Yet the volume levels on the HMI show volume levels changes. Actual volume levels do not change. If I cycle remote power to the MS-8 base unit. All parameters work properly. Should I send this in for repair? The unit is mounted in the trunk where the subs live. Could this be an issue? Heat or cold is not an issue due to I live in Socal. Well, you know what that is like. The head unit to the MS-8 is an Alpine 7909. I would like to get this resolved quickly if possible. Other than this the unit sounds very nice and is quite easy to use.


I followed Andy's sugestion of returning the unit. While it is awaiting the 6-8 weeks exchange I bought another one authorized this time. Installed and I am having hte same exact issues. I called JBL support and they had not heard of this issue. I really find it almost impossible I could have two faulty units with exactly same issue that none ofthe techs have seen. Only thing I can think is the 7909 could have too much RCA voltage going to the MS-8. I know it has been said that 2 volt max should not be worried about since over 2 volts is seldom seen. Yet, I have kind of exhausted all my ideas. I will try to find a different head unit and test this theory. 

Rich


----------



## acidbass303

I too have had this problem ( reboots and restarts randomly and unresponsive remote) i did a factory reset and recalibrated.. Has been working perfectly ever since.
Give it a try, might work for you too.

One thing that i noted is that i saved five favourite presets just prior to the erratic behaviour. May be there is a connection there but i am not sure.


----------



## tdrcrew

sniper5431 said:


> I followed Andy's sugestion of returning the unit. While it is awaiting the 6-8 weeks exchange I bought another one authorized this time. Installed and I am having hte same exact issues. I called JBL support and they had not heard of this issue. I really find it almost impossible I could have two faulty units with exactly same issue that none ofthe techs have seen. Only thing I can think is the 7909 could have too much RCA voltage going to the MS-8. I know it has been said that 2 volt max should not be worried about since over 2 volts is seldom seen. Yet, I have kind of exhausted all my ideas. I will try to find a different head unit and test this theory.
> 
> Rich


I bet you it doesn't do stuff like mine 

Screen goes on and off. Sometimes I can't get it to power on and when I wiggle the connector it works again correctly for a while or it displays weird characters (see images)

I tried to do a new calibration but it just doesn't work. The display keeps going on and off and now it is stuck in "Please connect microphone <continue>"  I thought I would just try myself but something is really off. I noticed this before I did anything myself. Either way my car is going back to the installer on wednesday for some sound tuning so I'm still figuring what to tell them so they won't blame me for all this. I hear them saying already "You shouldn't have touched it in the first place" 

I think the cable going to the display went bad (cable break somewhere down the line)


----------



## tdrcrew

kaigoss69 said:


> Set the amp gains to 2V input sensitivity and start with -35 volume. If it is still louder than conversation level then lower the MS-8 volume. The sub sweep you should only hear but NOT feel.


Thanks for your reply. Just tried to do that but as you can see from my other post I just can't work with the thing because the display just doesn't want to play nice.


----------



## IBcivic

tdrcrew said:


> I bet you it doesn't do stuff like mine
> 
> Screen goes on and off. Sometimes I can't get it to power on and when I wiggle the connector it works again correctly for a while or it displays weird characters (see images)
> 
> I tried to do a new calibration but it just doesn't work. The display keeps going on and off and now it is stuck in "Please connect microphone <continue>"  I thought I would just try myself but something is really off. I noticed this before I did anything myself. Either way my car is going back to the installer on wednesday for some sound tuning so I'm still figuring what to tell them so they won't blame me for all this. I hear them saying already "You shouldn't have touched it in the first place"
> 
> I think the cable going to the display went bad (cable break somewhere down the line)


have a peak inside the display. the jack is held in place with a tiny screw that I found to be lose.....as a matter of fact...all the screws were lose. if your cable doesnt go all the way in the jack on both ends, the display wont work


----------



## tdrcrew

Well, I don't really dare to open the display so I'll just leave it as it is 

I did try again (with success) and went through all 4 seating positions and it seems to me that it sounds a lot better. I lowered the volume as said in an earlier reply to -34 instead of -20. I'm not sure what my installer did different (perhaps they only did the front and not the rear) but now it sounds much more natural. Will have to test it on the road though on higher volume, I didn't want to piss off the neighbours  The difference between logic7 on/off seems to be minor, altough vocals sound more clear and as if they are much closer (don't really know how else to describe it). Too much bass from the sub so I had to turn it down even further, no big deal though. I wonder if it isn't as right biased as it used to be...

Thanks everybody for your help thus far and will report back


----------



## 14642

IF any of you are able to isolate this display problem to either the display, cable or unit, please PM me the serial number of the unit! I'll do what I can to get you a replacement ASAP.


----------



## brianhj

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> IF any of you are able to isolate this display problem to either the display, cable or unit, please PM me the serial number of the unit! I'll do what I can to get you a replacement ASAP.


I gotta say, I'm super impressed with the customer support from a big name like JBL. Is this common in car audio? Or any industry for that matter??

Andy is going above and beyond in my opinion. So here's to you, good sir.


----------



## tdrcrew

brianhj said:


> I gotta say, I'm super impressed with the customer support from a big name like JBL. Is this common in car audio? Or any industry for that matter??
> 
> Andy is going above and beyond in my opinion. So here's to you, good sir.


I couldn't agree more with you!


----------



## tdrcrew

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> IF any of you are able to isolate this display problem to either the display, cable or unit, please PM me the serial number of the unit! I'll do what I can to get you a replacement ASAP.


In my case it seems to happen when the display doesn't turn on and I wiggle the connector. I reconnected the cable to the display a few times and to the unit itself and now it seems stable. It was on all the time when I drove to work (+- 50 minute drive). Pretty funky if you ask me, I got even weirder stuff on the display but wasn't able to photograph them quickly enough 

Thanks for the reply and this great service!


----------



## tdrcrew

tdrcrew said:


> Well, I don't really dare to open the display so I'll just leave it as it is
> 
> I did try again (with success) and went through all 4 seating positions and it seems to me that it sounds a lot better. I lowered the volume as said in an earlier reply to -34 instead of -20. I'm not sure what my installer did different (perhaps they only did the front and not the rear) but now it sounds much more natural. Will have to test it on the road though on higher volume, I didn't want to piss off the neighbours  The difference between logic7 on/off seems to be minor, altough vocals sound more clear and as if they are much closer (don't really know how else to describe it). Too much bass from the sub so I had to turn it down even further, no big deal though. I wonder if it isn't as right biased as it used to be...
> 
> Thanks everybody for your help thus far and will report back


I must say what a difference! It is not right biased anymore like it was before and everything sounds more "clear" (I used to fix it with balance on the HU). I still have some issues in the high tones so I might have to lower those with the EQ (they sometimes sound overly processed/digital). I did apply the EQ slope my installer setup for me and that sounds pretty good (better than flat).

I'm still not sure what is making the difference: the calibration (perhaps they only did driver/passenger and not the rear) or that I lowered the system volume to -34 (or both). I also wonder if lowering the volume further will yield even better results. It is still at -34, I'm sure that won't be a problem?

As it is now, I must say I'm pretty impressed. Vocals have never been this good  I just think that if you get this installed you should be the one going through the calibration and not your installer.


----------



## detawx

Hey,

just purchased an MS-8 to go in my new install , after the fact i saw the thread mention that you can only send 2v to the rca inputs. I know everyone is going to say why arent you using the high level inputs , I already run rca's from the front to back and I dont want to rerun cables. My head unit is an eclipse avn726e which has a 5v out. Is there anyway that I can pad it?


thanks.


----------



## subwoofery

detawx said:


> Hey,
> 
> just purchased an MS-8 to go in my new install , after the fact i saw the thread mention that you can only send 2v to the rca inputs. I know everyone is going to say why arent you using the high level inputs , I already run rca's from the front to back and I dont want to rerun cables. My head unit is an eclipse avn726e which has a 5v out. Is there anyway that I can pad it?
> 
> 
> thanks.


Don't worry about your 5V out, just follow the tuning instructions... 

Kelvin


----------



## detawx

thanks.


----------



## big_ears

*Re: JBL's MS-8 processor -Logic 7 question!*

I don't know if this has been discussed before but I'm not reading 187 pages of posts! A question to anyone who has MS-8 + center speaker set up -

How much do you use Logic 7 for music/ how good does Logic 7 sound for you for music?

I'm asking this because in my current set up I don't use it much for music as it sounds weak in mid-bass performance no matter where I crossover the center channel. I've tried higher than recommended crossover points for the 4" MB Quart Q + tweeter (powered by MS-8) in my dash thinking the lower frequencies would be sent to my front 6 inchers (H.A.T. L6). But that doesn't help. Mid-bass is weak no matter where the crossover point. Imaging is great, but over sound is not as good as when L7 off.

If anyone has it sounding great, how low can your center play? I'm sure if my center played well to 80hz (my sub xover) it would sound great. I might plan a center channel upgrade (speaker/amp) if it would bring my system to the next level, but I don't think it would be worth it without putting a huge center speaker in. I don't feel Logic 7 is sending enough cut out center channel frequencies to my fronts and if it is why doesn't it sound right? I also notice the default crossover point for the center channel is 50hz (fronts only 80hz default). How common is having a center that can play to 50hz? (not that common I imagine)


----------



## nineball

you really should take the time to read the thread. it's been stated numerous times that the center should be on par with your front midrange, so unless you are running 4" midrange off 20rms your results will vary.


----------



## big_ears

Thanks for the reply nineball, but no, I'm not going to read the whole thread. No f'in way. I did just read the whole MS-8 tips and tricks thread and nothing was mentioned there regarding this L7 issue. Having matched drivers of course makes much sense but I remain cautious about upgrading until I know I won't be disappointed by the results if I stay with a 4" center driver.


----------



## subwoofery

big_ears said:


> Thanks for the reply nineball, but no, I'm not going to read the whole thread. No f'in way. I did just read the whole MS-8 tips and tricks thread and nothing was mentioned there regarding this L7 issue. Having matched drivers of course makes much sense but I remain cautious about upgrading until I know I won't be disappointed by the results if I stay with a 4" center driver.


I'd recommend you either: 
- try a beefier center driver or 
- reduce the level (gain) of the midbass before recalibrating. Then readjust the gain up and use the EQ to perfect the tonality 

Kelvin


----------



## big_ears

@subwoofery,

OK regarding your first suggestion, would a beefier driver do the trick? The reason I'm asking is the driver I would like to use would be H.A.T. L4 to match my fronts. It has a recommended xover at 160hz. Would my mid-bass ever be as present as when L7 is off? I mean the frequency gap between center and sub would still be there. Or would it all just jive and sound sick with a better driver? Also does L7 sound so good I should actually go through the trouble/expense, i.e. how often do people get L7 dialed with good amps/speakers but wind up preferring stereo? I've never heard anyones else's dialed MS-8 system.

regarding your second suggestion, that makes good sense as an easy fix for the L7 sounding better. I have to give that a try. Trying to do it with eq alone hasn't worked for me.


----------



## subwoofery

big_ears said:


> @subwoofery,
> 
> OK regarding your first suggestion, would a beefier driver do the trick? The reason I'm asking is the driver I would like to use would be H.A.T. L4 to match my fronts. It has a recommended xover at 160hz. Would my mid-bass ever be as present as when L7 is off? I mean the frequency gap between center and sub would still be there. Or would it all just jive and sound sick with a better driver? Also does L7 sound so good I should actually go through the trouble/expense, i.e. how often do people get L7 dialed with good amps/speakers but wind up preferring stereo? I've never heard anyones else's dialed MS-8 system.
> 
> regarding your second suggestion, that makes good sense as an easy fix for the L7 sounding better. I have to give that a try. Trying to do it with eq alone hasn't worked for me.


From reading up on the MS-8 thread, it seems that a lot of people have been complaining about the lack of midbass in their system. 
It can be due to a small calibrating problem that could be fixed with my suggestion above... 
or people just don't like a tonally correct system where the freq response is smooth with no huge difference in levels and peaks... 

Remember reading from Andy Wehmeyer that they are working on it so it has more midbass. Waiting for an upgrade I guess 

Now, when I say a beefier center, I meant one that could go down to @ least 100Hz, with 80Hz being better. Why not try to fit a nice 5" coaxial? I'm sure it's going to sound killer down to 80Hz. HAT Imagine 5 maybe??? 

Kelvin


----------



## yuri

big_ears said:


> Thanks for the reply nineball, but no, I'm not going to read the whole thread. No f'in way. I did just read the whole MS-8 tips and tricks thread and nothing was mentioned there regarding this L7 issue. Having matched drivers of course makes much sense but I remain cautious about upgrading until I know I won't be disappointed by the results if I stay with a 4" center driver.


hi , i am running a set up with 5 anthony gallo 3inch drivers and a pair of 10 subs . while i was initially concerned i may suffer from a lack of midbass ,, its worked out fantastic ... in fact i was amazed how well L7 works with a small center speaker , 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-member-build-logs/87243-unusual-2way-install.html

an another note my other car i run a 3way active front end (without center or rears)and i a find using L7 makes my center image wonder and mid range sounds a little funky for want of a better description ,


----------



## nineball

big_ears said:


> Thanks for the reply nineball, but no, I'm not going to read the whole thread. No f'in way. I did just read the whole MS-8 tips and tricks thread and nothing was mentioned there regarding this L7 issue. Having matched drivers of course makes much sense but I remain cautious about upgrading until I know I won't be disappointed by the results if I stay with a 4" center driver.


knowledge is power. you shouldn't be so lazy and read the thread. you are willing to spend $500+ on a processor but not learn about it?


----------



## Vitty

Can anyone tell me what is the preferred way to hook this up in my 07 Escalade? At the moment I only am running aftermarket subs off a Massive Audio N4 amp. The rest is the stock Bose 7.1 system. If I were to install the MS-8 now would I connect the speaker outputs from the Bose amp to the MS-8 or would it be better to connect what the wiring schematic calls "Low level right audio signal and low level left audio signal"(which I assume is the inputs from the head unit into the factory amp) to the MS-8 inputs? In the future my system will have aftermarket speakers, but for now as I mentioned just aftermarket subs. So my second question is, should I run the factory speakers of the MS-8 amp or should I just run the subwoofer off the MS-8 for now and leave the rest of the speakers on the factory amp?
Thanks


----------



## big_ears

@Vitty,

For the signal info to the MS-8 you surely could use the high level inputs to the MS-8. However if the "Low level right audio signal and low level left audio signal" are actual RCA cables then hook those up. If the low level signals are being transmitted over regular wire, I don't know if you can put RCA terminals on there. I had it originally hooked up with my stock HU and just used the high level inputs.

For your second question, definitely hook your speakers up to the MS-8. If you left them on factory amp how would MS-8 EQ/time align your system?!?

@subwoofery,

I would love to put a 5" in my dash, but don't know how realistic that is. I'm not an pro installer and when I mentioned at one place they didn't seem to want get into ripping up my dash any more than they already did and space is tight. Plus 80 -100 Hz rocking out of my thin plastic dash mounted 5 incher may rattle like hell. The whole issue of needing such a large center makes me think something should be tweaked for the L7 auto EQ. Yuri does not seem to have this L7 mid-bass issue with small speakers which is toataly at odds with my experience, lucky bastard

And as far as my MS-8 mid-bass issue, mine is really only with L7. The tune seems fine with L7 off. If it is slightly anemic with L7 off, it can be EQ adjusted to sound better. Not so much with L7 on; it seems some frequencies are actually kinda missing. Which is why your previous suggestion to tweak the mid range gain might work better to balance the sound of L7 in my set up.


----------



## Vitty

The low level right/left audio signal is regular wire not rca's. I should test the voltage on them. What voltage would they have to be to turn them into rca and hook them as inputs that way?


----------



## kaigoss69

I recently noticed - more or less by accident - that the right side midbass is playing at a lower level and intensity than the right one. I re-ran calibration and no change. I then tested the output of the MS-8 for each channel with a voltmeter playing some test tones, and discovered that Channel 3 was outputting less voltage than channel 4. Channel 3 is hooked up to the right side midbass so that would explain the difference in output. Interestingly, the output at 40-50Hz was about 100% more on ch 4 but only about 50% more at 80-100Hz. This leads me to believe that there is more lower frequency boost applied for the left side midbass speaker. The location of the speakers is under the seats (BMW) and they are 8" Morel CW-8s. Any ideas???


----------



## brianhj

kaigoss69 said:


> I recently noticed - more or less by accident - that the right side midbass is playing at a lower level and intensity than the right one. I re-ran calibration and no change. I then tested the output of the MS-8 for each channel with a voltmeter playing some test tones, and discovered that Channel 3 was outputting less voltage than channel 4. Channel 3 is hooked up to the right side midbass so that would explain the difference in output. Interestingly, the output at 40-50Hz was about 100% more on ch 4 but only about 50% more at 80-100Hz. This leads me to believe that there is more lower frequency boost applied for the left side midbass speaker. The location of the speakers is under the seats (BMW) and they are 8" Morel CW-8s. Any ideas???


Out of phase problem that the MS-8 isn't correcting?


----------



## VP Electricity

Considering that I tune my left to be 2db louder than the right, I would guess the ms 8 is looking at different notes than I do when I tune my DCs.


----------



## Gary Mac

This may be a stupid question, but I just want to be sure, If im going to run a two-way active front, with sides AND amp my center and sub, I would run channel 7 mono for my center and run channel 8 mono for my sub?


----------



## acidbass303

Gary Mac said:


> This may be a stupid question, but I just want to be sure, If im going to run a two-way active front, with sides AND amp my center and sub, I would run channel 7 mono for my center and run channel 8 mono for my sub?


I believe the channel selection is totally user configurable.
it is upto you whatever channel you select for any driver
E.g. you can use channel 1 for sub or channel 8 or whatever
just make sure you remember which channel you selected for which driver
noting them down a paper (along with crossover points and slopes) makes future reference easy and safe.


----------



## Diffeomorphism

^I just want to clarify if anyone else has a similar question or is reading this to prevent any confusion.

I assume that the question and answer were with respect to the _output_ of the MS-8 and _not_ the input. 



JBL MS-8 Manual Page 9 said:


> You can connect the factory front speaker outputs to any MS-8 Hi Level inputs, but factory stereo or amplifier
> subwoofer outputs MUST be connected ONLY to the MS-8’s channel 7 and/or 8 inputs.


----------



## kaigoss69

VP Electricity said:


> Considering that I tune my left to be 2db louder than the right, I would guess the ms 8 is looking at different notes than I do when I tune my DCs.


Are you saying it is supposed to be like that or are you saying you can tune better...

I will perform an experiment: I will sit on the passenger side and calibrate for the drivers seat. Then, if the output difference moves to the other side, I guess MS-8 just wants it that way.


----------



## phy1708

kaigoss69 said:


> I recently noticed - more or less by accident - that the right side midbass is playing at a lower level and intensity than the right one. I re-ran calibration and no change. I then tested the output of the MS-8 for each channel with a voltmeter playing some test tones, and discovered that Channel 3 was outputting less voltage than channel 4. Channel 3 is hooked up to the right side midbass so that would explain the difference in output. Interestingly, the output at 40-50Hz was about 100% more on ch 4 but only about 50% more at 80-100Hz. This leads me to believe that there is more lower frequency boost applied for the left side midbass speaker. The location of the speakers is under the seats (BMW) and they are 8" Morel CW-8s. Any ideas???


Things will be reversed if you change the listening position setting from Driver to Passenger. What I noticed was that, when I chose Driver, the left midbass hit hard while I could feel almost no bass from the right one. When I changed over to Passenger, left midbass became almost impactless. So I believe it's just part of the MS-8's calibration plan......not sure if the plan applies throughout the audible frequency range or only to the bass region.


----------



## kaigoss69

phy1708 said:


> Things will be reversed if you change the listening position setting from Driver to Passenger. What I noticed was that, when I chose Driver, the left midbass hit hard while I could feel almost no bass from the right one. When I changed over to Passenger, left midbass became almost impactless. So I believe it's just part of the MS-8's calibration plan......not sure if the plan applies throughout the audible frequency range or only to the bass region.


For what its worth, I ran the calibration from the passenger seat, then again from the driver seat, and then measured the MS-8 speaker level outputs after each calibragtion for both channels. You can see the results in the first two graphs. You can see there is not much disparity between the two, with a slight bias towards the calibation side. Since I had much more variation in my measurements yesterday, I then ran the calibration (drivers seat) at -40dB, since that was the volume I used then. This is the last graph. Draw your own conclusions but it seems that the calibration volume alone has an impact on the severity of this phenomenon, at least in my case.


----------



## kaigoss69

Did a couple more calibrations. I am hoping to find a "sweet spot" so I am getting the most even midbass response as possible from both sides. Based on the results, it seems the most even electrical response is between -35 and -37dB. Notice that the voltage between the various frequencies is also fairly constant in this calibration volume range (I do not know how that translates into dB in the car though...). Also notice that the lower the calibration volume, the sharper the dropoff in voltage with increasing frequency.


----------



## JJAZ

Interesting measurements, but... I find it hard to make any firm conclusions out of them.

How many times did you recalibrate and measure at each volume setting? What about volume -36, does it fit in between -35 and -37.

It seems to me like the calibration is way to dependent on the volume, indicating a software calibration algorithm that is not well designed :mean:

How would anyone know which calibration volume to use for the "best" result. I think we need some answers from JBL. Especially since it is not possible to read out whatever results the MS-8 has found and used.


----------



## subwoofery

kaigoss69 said:


> Did a couple more calibrations. I am hoping to find a "sweet spot" so I am getting the most even midbass response as possible from both sides. Based on the results, it seems the most even electrical response is between -35 and -37dB. Notice that the voltage between the various frequencies is also fairly constant in this calibration volume range (I do not know how that translates into dB in the car though...). _*Also notice that the lower the calibration volume, the sharper the dropoff in voltage with increasing frequency.*_


Might be wrong but I think that you might be clipping the headset mic. Since you get a sharper dropoff in voltage with a lower calibration volume, I can only *assume* that the MS-8 is doing it's job much more constantly. 
Here's the thread that describes what kind of curve JBL is using: 
Flat Response









Try at the lowest volume (lower than -40dB) then go up +5dB, then up again and compare results. 

Kelvin


----------



## subwoofery

JJAZ said:


> Interesting measurements, but... I find it hard to make any firm conclusions out of them.
> 
> How many times did you recalibrate and measure at each volume setting? What about volume -36, does it fit in between -35 and -37.
> 
> It seems to me like the calibration is way to dependent on the volume, *indicating a software calibration algorithm that is not well designed* :mean:
> 
> How would anyone know which calibration volume to use for the "best" result. I think we need some answers from JBL. Especially since it is not possible to read out whatever results the MS-8 has found and used.


Please read my post ^ above... 

Problem encountered when using processors are 90% of the time, user error. My friend is a car audio dealer and can't believe how often people ask him to tune their system only to find that the gains on either the amp, HU or processor are maxed... 

Kelvin


----------



## Vitty

Anyone have any suggestions to try if I am getting "Input Signal None" on the MS-8 during input setup? I have my front left/right, hooked to channel 1 and 2 on the MS-8 high level input and sub left/right, hooked to channels 7 and 8. They are hooked up coming out of my Bose factory amplifier. While playing the test CD I get nothing but "Input Signal None" no matter how high i turn my factory head unit. If I skip the input selection and go straight to calibration/setup I hear audio out of all speakers just fine. Any suggestions on getting the MS-8 to recognize my inputs? Or is there any harm in skipping the input selection if I am using the high level inputs? My vehicle is an 07 Escalade.
Thanks


----------



## kaigoss69

subwoofery said:


> Might be wrong but I think that you might be clipping the headset mic. Since you get a sharper dropoff in voltage with a lower calibration volume, I can only *assume* that the MS-8 is doing it's job much more constantly.


I see your logic, but the sweeps at -35dB volume register somewhere between 40 and 45 dB when measured with my RTA iphone app. I would think that I am at least 30 dB away from clipping the mic, so that can't be it.


----------



## JJAZ

subwoofery said:


> Please read my post ^ above...
> 
> Problem encountered when using processors are 90% of the time, user error. My friend is a car audio dealer and can't believe how often people ask him to tune their system only to find that the gains on either the amp, HU or processor are maxed...
> 
> Kelvin


Even the cheapest electret capsules will not saturate unless driven above 110dB SPL, so it is not the microphones clipping.

I find it very odd that the calibration has to be done at such low levels and is so sensitive to the level. If I was to design a calibration routine I would make sure it was not overly sensitive to level and that it at least worked over a range of 40dB (from 50-90dB SPL).


----------



## subwoofery

JJAZ said:


> Even the cheapest electret capsules will not saturate unless driven above 110dB SPL, so it is not the microphones clipping.
> 
> I find it very odd that the calibration has to be done at such low levels and is so sensitive to the level. _*If I was to design a calibration routine I would make sure it was not overly sensitive to level and that it at least worked over a range of 40dB (from 50-90dB SPL)*_.


Well, I'm trying to help the guy troubleshoot. I know that you didn't read the whole MS-8 thread but I did, at least twice coz I wanted to grasp everything that could be done to make use of it's full processing. I know that the auto-tuning is indeed volume-sensitive - clipping the mics results in improper tuning done by the MS-8. 

Don't know how accurate the iPhone app is but Andy stated that calibration should be done at a normal conversation level - around 80dB-85dB. 

Kelvin


----------



## Salami

subwoofery said:


> Andy stated that calibration should be done at a normal conversation level - around 80dB-85dB.
> 
> Kelvin



Every chart I can find online shows normal conversation level as ~60-70 at 3-5 feet. 80-85 db seems awfully high.


----------



## subwoofery

Ok... Took me less than 10 mns to gather this info: 


JJAZ said:


> Even the cheapest electret capsules will not saturate unless driven above 110dB SPL, so it is not the microphones clipping.
> 
> I find it very odd that the calibration has to be done at such low levels and is so sensitive to the level. If I was to design a calibration routine I would make sure it was not overly sensitive to level and that it at least worked over a range of 40dB (from 50-90dB SPL).


Answer: Mic in the JBL set can clip and it's much lower than your suggested number of 110dB 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1172519-post111.html 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1073797-post3690.html 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1205510-post4492.html 



Salami said:


> Every chart I can find online shows normal conversation level as ~60-70 at 3-5 feet. 80-85 db seems awfully high.


Answer: I'm sure you've read that it has to be set at a normal conversation level... right? 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1064027-post3439.html 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1163071-post35.html 

For the guyz that don't know... There's a "drop down box" on the upper corner of each threads called "search this thread". For the lazy guyz, well I'm sorry for you... 

Kelvin


----------



## Vitty

Vitty said:


> Anyone have any suggestions to try if I am getting "Input Signal None" on the MS-8 during input setup? I have my front left/right, hooked to channel 1 and 2 on the MS-8 high level input and sub left/right, hooked to channels 7 and 8. They are hooked up coming out of my Bose factory amplifier. While playing the test CD I get nothing but "Input Signal None" no matter how high i turn my factory head unit. If I skip the input selection and go straight to calibration/setup I hear audio out of all speakers just fine. Any suggestions on getting the MS-8 to recognize my inputs? Or is there any harm in skipping the input selection if I am using the high level inputs? My vehicle is an 07 Escalade.
> Thanks


Well I answered my own question with a bit of trial and error this evening. Turns out my factory head unit was set to output 5.1 surround. It was rather deceiving as there are 2 touch screen buttons in the audio setup that say 2 ch and 5.1 ch. The 2 ch was clicked. However, on the very bottom of the screen it showed the buttons "Normal" and "Surround". Surround was clicked down here. The instant I clicked the normal button, the MS-8 input setup check passed everything with an OK value. Hooray! I must have double checked polarity and connections 50 times.


----------



## brianhj

I wish I could rent one of these. I'd really like to hear how it sounds

(pointless post.)


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> For what its worth, I ran the calibration from the passenger seat, then again from the driver seat, and then measured the MS-8 speaker level outputs after each calibragtion for both channels. You can see the results in the first two graphs. You can see there is not much disparity between the two, with a slight bias towards the calibation side. Since I had much more variation in my measurements yesterday, I then ran the calibration (drivers seat) at -40dB, since that was the volume I used then. This is the last graph. Draw your own conclusions but it seems that the calibration volume alone has an impact on the severity of this phenomenon, at least in my case.


 
I don't really understand this exercise. I have heard reports that consumers like the tune better at different levels, but I haven't been able to verify with a unit we have here that there are significant differences in the EQ at different levels within the range that MS-8 likes to see. Once we have another unit in a car, I'll tyr to do some measurements to sort this out, but I do have this to say about the post above:

Why would you attempt to test the validity of equalization designed to improve the acoustic response of the system with a volt meter, a frequency generator and using your eyes to judge the excursion of the speaker. Even your measurements suggest that MS-8 is, in fact, attenuating the near side speaker to match the levels, but without an understanding of the before and after acoustic responses, this is no way to check the performance. 

One thing that may affect the tuning at different levels is that in many cases, a certain amount of energy is necessary to energize room (or in this case, car) modes. At VERY low volumes, these modes may not be energized. Most of my suggestions are based on experience, but this one is mostly conjecture. This is absolutely the case in larger rooms, but I have never attempted to verify it in cars. Maybe that's the next project.

Anyway, An EQ increases and decreases output VOLTAGE according to the correction filter. If you're trying to get even midbass according to output voltage from the right and left, you're just attempting to un-EQ the EQ.


----------



## JJAZ

subwoofery said:


> Ok... Took me less than 10 mns to gather this info:
> 
> Answer: Mic in the JBL set can clip and it's much lower than your suggested number of 110dB
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1172519-post111.html
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1073797-post3690.html
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1205510-post4492.html


It is not the mic that is clipping! Maybe the mic input is saturated or whatever error there is, but as I stated even the cheapest electret mics (we are talking less than 0.10 USD here) will not clip unless driven above 110dBSPL.




subwoofery said:


> For the lazy guyz, well I'm sorry for you...


This is not about being lazy.. For me this is about trying to understand why the MS-8 requires such a low level signal for the calibration.

As stated you are way of if you think the mics are clipping, and you are equally way off when you state that normal conversation level is 80-85dBSPL.


----------



## JJAZ

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> One thing that may affect the tuning at different levels is that in many cases, a certain amount of energy is necessary to energize room (or in this case, car) modes. At VERY low volumes, these modes may not be energized. Most of my suggestions are based on experience, but this one is mostly conjecture. This is absolutely the case in larger rooms, but I have never attempted to verify it in cars. Maybe that's the next project.


That is true in a car as well, at least according to my experience.


----------



## brianhj

Also, this might sound stupid and elementary, but I think everyone needs to remember that what our ears hear is going to be different than what the MS-8's microphones hear. When processors auto-tune to make things "flat" and "level" and... well.. "perfect".. you might actually not like the way it sounds. One of your ears might be more sensitive to the 4000Hz range than the other. You might just plain hear better out of one ear than the other. Maybe you have wax build-up in one ear and you don't realize it. So while the MS-8 might even out the midbass coming from both sides, your left might be more sensitive to those frequencies than your right and it while sound uneven.. TO YOU.

I'm not saying everyone with problems with the MS-8 has ear wax build-up and just needs to get their ears flushed. I'm just saying it's something to think about... sometimes the simplest things are overlooked.

The way a microphone "hears" sound is much different than the way we hear it.

On that note, and off-topic to this thread, I've always wondered why people say "yeah you want to adjust your EQ and time align and this and that and really tune your system to make it have a flat response and blah blah... because then you're hearing the music the way the artist intended you to hear it."

What I don't understand about that is... what percentage of the population is going to be hearing music with a perfectly tuned system (audiophiles) and what percentage is going to be listening to CD's as MP3 files on their iPods? Do sound engineers really mix and EQ music with the intention of listeners hearing it on perfect sound systems? And do producers and sound engineers have perfectly tuned systems themselves? And aren't they just adjusting the music based on what THEIR ears hear?

Deep thoughts...

And please correct me if I got any of this wrong.


----------



## brianhj

What was cool about the BitOne was you could have different EQs for different volume levels... like maybe a bit more bass and treble and low volumes. And it would slowly adjust to a different EQ curve as you increased the volume.

At least that's what I remember.. am I right? Pretty neat feature.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

brianhj said:


> Also, this might sound stupid and elementary, but I think everyone needs to remember that what our ears hear is going to be different than what the MS-8's microphones hear. When processors auto-tune to make things "flat" and "level" and... well.. "perfect".. you might actually not like the way it sounds. One of your ears might be more sensitive to the 4000Hz range than the other. You might just plain hear better out of one ear than the other. Maybe you have wax build-up in one ear and you don't realize it. So while the MS-8 might even out the midbass coming from both sides, your left might be more sensitive to those frequencies than your right and it while sound uneven.. TO YOU.
> 
> I'm not saying everyone with problems with the MS-8 has ear wax build-up and just needs to get their ears flushed. I'm just saying it's something to think about... sometimes the simplest things are overlooked.
> 
> The way a microphone "hears" sound is much different than the way we hear it.
> 
> On that note, and off-topic to this thread, I've always wondered why people say "yeah you want to adjust your EQ and time align and this and that and really tune your system to make it have a flat response and blah blah... because then you're hearing the music the way the artist intended you to hear it."
> 
> What I don't understand about that is... what percentage of the population is going to be hearing music with a perfectly tuned system (audiophiles) and what percentage is going to be listening to CD's as MP3 files on their iPods? Do sound engineers really mix and EQ music with the intention of listeners hearing it on perfect sound systems? And do producers and sound engineers have perfectly tuned systems themselves? And aren't they just adjusting the music based on what THEIR ears hear?
> 
> Deep thoughts...
> 
> And please correct me if I got any of this wrong.


you're correct about the difference between our perception and that of a microphone's sensing of acoustic stimulation. but way off topic. 

for the other thing, ygpm. I think I can explain.


----------



## subwoofery

JJAZ said:


> It is not the mic that is clipping! Maybe the mic input is saturated or whatever error there is, but as I stated even the cheapest electret mics (we are talking less than 0.10 USD here) will not clip unless driven above 110dBSPL.
> 
> Did you at least read my links? Yes the mics in the JBL MS-8 can clip. I'm not saying it - everyone that has used it knows now that clipping the MS-8's mic screws the auto-tuning.
> Heck, even Andy said it: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1045949-post2729.html
> You're talking crap about something you've never used: _"...indicating a software calibration algorithm that is not well designed..."_
> 
> And if you want to ask me if I have used the product, I can answer "YES"
> I have one, yet not installed but have played with it in my system and can show pics that I actually own the product.
> 
> This is not about being lazy. Was not pointing you out at all, just in general... For me this is about trying to understand why the MS-8 requires such a low level signal for the calibration.
> 
> As stated you are way of if you think the mics are clipping, *and you are equally way off when you state that normal conversation level is 80-85dBSPL.* From the following post, you can see that it can be louder than 80dB: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1249729-post4628.html


Please, next time, at least try the product before judging or discreditating the work of some engineers. 
Take the time to read the whole MS-8 thread, ton of infos about the product and concept related to sound & audio... 

Kelvin


----------



## JJAZ

subwoofery said:


> Please, next time, at least try the product before judging or discreditating the work of some engineers.
> Take the time to read the whole MS-8 thread, ton of infos about the product and concept related to sound & audio...
> 
> Kelvin


It is not like I can just go out and borrow it for a week, if I could I would do that right away. For the last week I have been surfing the internet forever trying to find a unit for a decent cost, but that is not exactly easy, not when you need it shipped to Denmark.

I am not discrediting anyones work, at least not by intention. I am merely trying to understand why the unit appears to be overly sensitive to the level of the calibration signal.

Seriously I would love to have the MS-8 in my car, but since you can not read out its results I think it is fair to want a unit that calibrates very consistently time after time, and that unfortunately does not seem to be the case.

I have spend quite a few hours reading through information and threads on the MS-8, but not gotten any wiser as to why it is so sensitive to the level during calibration.

I compare the MS-8 somewhat to the HOLM DSPre (which I would also love to have in my car), but they target very different segments. The HOLM DSPre is for the home stereo enthusiast and lets you see everything it does.
The MS-8 is for the plug'n'play car audio guy, with very limited possibility to see what corrections it has made and wether or not they correction is correct.


----------



## subwoofery

JJAZ said:


> It is not like I can just go out and borrow it for a week, if I could I would do that right away. For the last week I have been surfing the internet forever trying to find a unit for a decent cost, but that is not exactly easy, not when you need it shipped to Denmark.
> 
> I am not discrediting anyones work, at least not by intention. I am merely trying to understand why the unit appears to be overly sensitive to the level of the calibration signal.
> 
> Seriously I would love to have the MS-8 in my car, but since you can not read out its results I think it is fair to want a unit that calibrates very consistently time after time, and that unfortunately does not seem to be the case.
> 
> I have spend quite a few hours reading through information and threads on the MS-8, but not gotten any wiser as to why it is so sensitive to the level during calibration.
> 
> I compare the MS-8 somewhat to the HOLM DSPre (which I would also love to have in my car), but they target very different segments. The HOLM DSPre is for the home stereo enthusiast and lets you see everything it does.
> The MS-8 is for the plug'n'play car audio guy, with very limited possibility to see what corrections it has made and wether or not they correction is correct.


Well, what needs to be done in order to have a good tuning after the MS-8 has done it's job is to not clip the mic yet energize car modes. Above a certain level, you won't get consistent results (skewed image, left of center, right of center, blurry center stage, etc...). 
The Mic is the only reason I can think of that makes the MS-8 highly sensitive to level. 

Andy has already given the challenge to anyone that could describe and measure what the MS-8 does to the signal and also offered a pair of $2000 components - he feels pretty confident about it and that means that it's no use to measure outputs with basic equipments and no knowledge about audio: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1026485-post2501.html 

Kelvin 

PS: sweeet 2000 posts


----------



## Salami

subwoofery said:


> Answer: I'm sure you've read that it has to be set at a normal conversation level... right?
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1064027-post3439.html
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1163071-post35.html
> 
> For the guyz that don't know... There's a "drop down box" on the upper corner of each threads called "search this thread". For the lazy guyz, well I'm sorry for you...
> 
> Kelvin


Point is normal conversation is not considered 80-85 db. Check out this link here: Table chart sound pressure levels level sound pressure and sound intensity ratio calculation comparison loudness decibel dB scale ratio factor unit examples - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

Not saying 80-85db is not correct for calibration. I am saying that according to info online it is not normal conversation level.


----------



## JJAZ

subwoofery said:


> Well, what needs to be done in order to have a good tuning after the MS-8 has done it's job is to not clip the mic yet energize car modes. Above a certain level, you won't get consistent results (skewed image, left of center, right of center, blurry center stage, etc...).
> The Mic is the only reason I can think of that makes the MS-8 highly sensitive to level.


You might have +2000 posts, but that does not mean your repeated nonsense of mic-clipping suddenly becomes the truth. You are giving the wrong answer here, no matter wether you like to hear it from a DIYMA-newbie or not.



subwoofery said:


> Andy has already given the challenge to anyone that could describe and measure what the MS-8 does to the signal and also offered a pair of $2000 components - he feels pretty confident about it and that means that it's no use to measure outputs with basic equipments and no knowledge about audio: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1026485-post2501.html


*scratches head* Where did I state anything about measuring the output of the MS-8?? I have a fairly good understanding of the technology involved here, and what I am requesting is only the relevant information so as to find out why it is so sensitive to the level. I am not trying to measure the outputs and reverse engineering them back to FIR-filters.

You must admit that since the user can not see any details about what the MS-8 has done in its calibration/analysis, it is very important that it does it correct time after time again. If there where some sort of feedback to the user it would be a lot easier to trace what ever errors might have happened.

Pardon my french, but you treat me like an ignorant and I am anything but that. Having worked with audio (loudspeaker driver design, acoustic consultant, loudspeaker systems, dsp-algorithm evaluation, production testing, bluetooth headset audio design, former car audio competitor & radios for "Government & Public Safety", just to name some of my past experience) I do know my way around quite many aspects within the audio world

As I wrote earlier I can not just borrow an MS-8 to try it out and buying one just for the sake of trying it seems a bit risky to me. I am sure it can do a lot of wonderful things if used the right way, I am just trying to understand its limitations and why they are as they are.


----------



## subwoofery

Salami said:


> Point is normal conversation is not considered 80-85 db. Check out this link here: Table chart sound pressure levels level sound pressure and sound intensity ratio calculation comparison loudness decibel dB scale ratio factor unit examples - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin
> 
> Not saying 80-85db is not correct for calibration. I am saying that according to info online it is not normal conversation level.


I can see that most charts shows a normal conversation to be around 60dB-70dB. You're right on that part. 
The link I posted about the person that tried to measure his own normal conversation shows that those charts are guidelines only. 
You can have a peak in a conversation that is higher than 90dB 
If you speak to my grand-mother, you'll know it's nowhere near 60dB 

The level of the pink noise generated by the MS-8 does not fluctuate and is fixed. Meaning the mics get peak output only - which should be close to 80dB-90dB according to Andy... 

Kelvin


----------



## subwoofery

JJAZ said:


> You might have +2000 posts, but that does not mean your repeated nonsense of mic-clipping suddenly becomes the truth. You are giving the wrong answer here, no matter wether you like to hear it from a DIYMA-newbie or not.
> Now I can see you're getting fustrated about what I have to say... I wasn't implying that my knowledge was superior due to the fact that I have more post than you.
> 
> *scratches head* Where did I state anything about measuring the output of the MS-8?? I have a fairly good understanding of the technology involved here, and what I am requesting is only the relevant information so as to find out why it is so sensitive to the level. I am not trying to measure the outputs and reverse engineering them back to FIR-filters.
> 
> I linked Andy's post just to show that the engineers have done their part - not saying it's bullet proof or an error free unit though. The MS-8 has been created to be an automatic equalizer that can optimize any vehicle’s performance in about ten minutes flat. It maximizes frequency response, detail and stereo imaging without spending months, even years, learning about audio and tuning in order to perfect an install.
> I bought an MS-8 to know how far I'm from a "perfect" tune for my car - am still learning how to perfect my install and tuning.
> 
> _You must admit that since the user can not see any details about what the MS-8 has done in its calibration/analysis, it is very important that it does it correct time after time again. If there where some sort of feedback to the user it would be a lot easier to trace what ever errors might have happened._
> 
> Pardon my french, but you treat me like an ignorant and I am anything but that. Having worked with audio (loudspeaker driver design, acoustic consultant, loudspeaker systems, dsp-algorithm evaluation, production testing, bluetooth headset audio design, former car audio competitor & radios for "Government & Public Safety", just to name some of my past experience) I do know my way around quite many aspects within the audio world
> 
> As I wrote earlier I can not just borrow an MS-8 to try it out and buying one just for the sake of trying it seems a bit risky to me. I am sure it can do a lot of wonderful things if used the right way, _I am just trying to understand its limitations and why they are as they are._


Regarding the _italic_ part, I've said it before, most of the time it's user's error. 
When using the MS-8, you have to make sure all your drivers are in correct polarity (+ to +, - to -) or you'll have problems when the auto-tuning does it thing. People that don't have T/A or compete in 2 seat class MOST OF THE TIME reverse the polarity of 1 mid. Then wonder why it sounds bad with the L7 processing on VS off 
^ that is user's error and an easy fix  

"Don't shoot, I'm just the messenger" 
I'm just reporting what I've read and will do one last time for you: 
The MIC supplied with the JBL MS-8 processor CAN CLIP, and that will give you the inconsistency a few people have experienced. 
Heck even non matching output gains not set correctly will give you inconsistent results. 
^ if you don't want to accept that from me that's fine. 

Once you grasp all the things that needs to be done and to be avoided when using the MS-8, a new world opens up for your system. 

Kelvin


----------



## Fast1one

It may not be the mic itself that is saturating, but the input stage of the mic. No telling how much gain the preamp is providing. If its very high, then that stage could be clipping.


----------



## subwoofery

Fast1one said:


> It may not be the mic itself that is saturating, but the input stage of the mic. No telling how much gain the preamp is providing. If its very high, then that stage could be clipping.


^ True 

Kelvin


----------



## Wheres The Butta

Salami said:


> Point is normal conversation is not considered 80-85 db. Check out this link here: Table chart sound pressure levels level sound pressure and sound intensity ratio calculation comparison loudness decibel dB scale ratio factor unit examples - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin
> 
> Not saying 80-85db is not correct for calibration. I am saying that according to info online it is not normal conversation level.


I looked at some online charts too, and I think the reason for confusion is obvious. "Normal" is TOTALLY subjective. One person may say "normal" and be relating their OWN "normal" conversation volume, while the next guy may say "normal" while referring to a number on a chart someone posted. The level 85db was provided, so it's safe to assume that "normal," as used in that context, was referring to the person's own normative volume level.

My sustained conversation volume is well over 80db while parked, and can be over 90db while the vehicle is in motion. This is my own measurement, and will not apply for everyone - but clearly illustrates the subjectivity of "normal". I know I'm a loudmouth, but whatever lol.

Anyway, my point is that it's easy to get confused, since in this thread, "normal" was defined as 85db by the person who introduced the idea.

That said, I have no idea if the MS-8 would perform a more accurate calibration with the sweeps at 65db or 85db.


----------



## JJAZ

bd5034 said:


> My sustained conversation volume is well over 80db while parked, and can be over 90db while the vehicle is in motion. This is my own measurement, and will not apply for everyone - but clearly illustrates the subjectivity of "normal". I know I'm a loudmouth, but whatever lol.


It is important to know how you measured it and where the measurement microphone is positioned. Otherwise the dBSPL reading can not be used for anything.



bd5034 said:


> Anyway, my point is that it's easy to get confused, since in this thread, "normal" was defined as 85db by the person who introduced the idea.


"Typical Average Speech Level" is actually very well defined by ITU (International Telecommunication Union). It is -4.7dBPa measured at MRP (Mouth Reference Point). Thus to find the speech level you would calculate the loss from one speakers MRP to the others ERP (Ear Reference Point) and subtract that from the -4.7dBPa. -4.7dBPa is equivalent to 89.3dBSPL.

A fair estimation is that the Typical Average Speech Level converts to 65dBSPL at 80cm distance between the talker mouth and the listener ears.



bd5034 said:


> That said, I have no idea if the MS-8 would perform a more accurate calibration with the sweeps at 65db or 85db.


Neither have I, but I would like to have that knowledge. It would make a lot of sense if the MS-8 could either indicate to the user wether the calibration level is low/optimum/high, or if the MS-8 could adjust the calibration level by itself.


----------



## JJAZ

subwoofery said:


> Here's the thread that describes what kind of curve JBL is using:
> Flat Response


The above mentioned thread is very nice and contains lots of important information.

Maybe I missed it, but what kind of measurement method is used for the target curve frequency response measurement?

Is it a simple RTA, a filtered sine-sweep, a MLSSA or something else?

and... Is the rest of the presentation available to the public somewhere? I would love to read through all the slides.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

JJAZ said:


> "Typical Average Speech Level" is actually very well defined by ITU (International Telecommunication Union). It is -4.7dBPa measured at MRP (Mouth Reference Point). Thus to find the speech level you would calculate the loss from one speakers MRP to the others ERP (Ear Reference Point) and subtract that from the -4.7dBPa. -4.7dBPa is equivalent to 89.3dBSPL.
> 
> A fair estimation is that the Typical Average Speech Level converts to 65dBSPL at 80cm distance between the talker mouth and the listener ears.


I think you missed my point. Maybe I didn't convey it properly. The person who originally brought the concept into this thread didn't reference "typical average speech level as defined by ITU" They simply said the word "normal" and then defined it very clearly as 85db. Perhaps you assumed he meant "typical average speech level" as defined by ITU. That simply wasn't said, however. This is why I said it's easy to get confused: the terminology wasn't very specific.



JJAZ said:


> It is important to know how you measured it and where the measurement microphone is positioned. Otherwise the dBSPL reading can not be used for anything.



I recently used a SPL labs USB meter to test the accuracy of the epic160 microphone that is installed in my dash. While performing this testing, I also took note of several other things. Among them was the conversation level of the vehicle's occupants. The SPL labs microphone was placed in two different locations: first on the center console at the bottom of the center control stack, and second was on the window directly above the passenger airbag. Both locations yielded similar results, varying at most 2db.

we are way off topic.


----------



## JJAZ

bd5034 said:


> I think you missed my point.


Sorry, it was not my intention pointing fingers at anyone. Just wanted to say that there is a standard that covers the subject of "typical speech level".




bd5034 said:


> I recently used a SPL labs USB meter to test the accuracy of the epic160 microphone that is installed in my dash. While performing this testing, I also took note of several other things. Among them was the conversation level of the vehicle's occupants. The SPL labs microphone was placed in two different locations: first on the center console at the bottom of the center control stack, and second was on the window directly above the passenger airbag. Both locations yielded similar results, varying at most 2db.


Interesting results, and thanks a lot for the clarification.




bd5034 said:


> we are way off topic.


True... It is easy to get carried away 

Back on topic: Anyone has a cheap MS-8 I can buy?


----------



## tdrcrew

Well, after many troubleshooting and contact with JBL the MS-8 is going out and a I believe a Bit Ten is going in (my installer told me an updated Bit One but I could only find the Bit Ten. They ordered one and it should take 2 weeks orso to get here).

I'm sure it's a great product but it just doesn't work for me


----------



## subwoofery

tdrcrew said:


> Well, after many troubleshooting and contact with JBL the MS-8 is going out and a I believe a Bit Ten is going in (my installer told me an updated Bit One but I could only find the Bit Ten. They ordered one and it should take 2 weeks orso to get here).
> 
> I'm sure it's a great product but it just doesn't work for me


Well there you go JJAZ. From Netherlands to Denmark, shipping shouldn't cost a fortune... 

Kelvin


----------



## Wheres The Butta

subwoofery said:


> Well there you go JJAZ. From Netherlands to Denmark, shipping shouldn't cost a fortune...
> 
> Kelvin



fortune smiles upon thee, JJAZ

thou hast found the MS-8


----------



## tdrcrew

subwoofery said:


> Well there you go JJAZ. From Netherlands to Denmark, shipping shouldn't cost a fortune...
> 
> Kelvin


Sorry, I'm not going to sell it  They will swap it out for the Bit One/Ten. Even if I would sell I sure wouldn't do it here as I still have the idea that the unit has a defect. No way to prove or test it though... I don't want to saddle someone else up with the same frustrations.

I even asked if JBL had some demo car in The Netherlands so I could listen how an MS-8 should sound. I guess not. If it was my product I at least would like to know what was going on and try to fix it.


----------



## Vitty

Could someone shed some light on this question....

If the MS-8 is supposed to sum all the input signals and I am tapping the high level inputs AFTER my factory amplifier for FL FR, SubL and SubR, if the factory amp removes some frequencies from its output signal, does the MS-8 lose these frequencies or does it somehow try to fill them in? My main concern is the subwoofer output on my factory Bose amp. Is there any chance Bose could have a subsonic filter on there which is actually much higher than what my current setup can play? If so I would assume I am losing out on this signal....Am I correct in thinking this, and is that a situation Bose would have possibly done?


----------



## detawx

Hey,

Going to be calibrating my MS-8 for the first time today, I have a question. What is the best way to setup the MS-8 if i am using passive crossovers with a rear fill? I tried searching this thread for an answer but came up short. 


Thanks


----------



## acidbass303

Hi there
I am running 2 way active fronts + center + rears + sub ( 8 channels)
And i am powering all of them with outboard amplifiers
I wish to know the most reliable and simple method to level match all the drivers. I have tried using the iphone rta app/ spl app at the output diagnostics stage (where it plays pink noise) to try and level match but somehow the center and rear sweeps are considerably quieter than the fronts and the sub even after level matching with the above mentioned method.

Please guide me in this matter, i am sure this would help many others too.

I wish harman could incorporate such a feature for level matching in their firmware upgrade. Speaking of which, when is the update expected?

Thanks.


----------



## 14642

set all the amp gains to the 2V setting and start with MS-8's volume control at -40.


----------



## thehatedguy

Andy this might be a dumb question, but when using 12 dB XO settings for the MS-8, do you still need to connect the speakers in phase at the amp, or reverse phase since LR12 has 180 degree phase flip?


----------



## Briznow

thehatedguy said:


> Andy this might be a dumb question, but when using 12 dB XO settings for the MS-8, do you still need to connect the speakers in phase at the amp, or reverse phase since LR12 has 180 degree phase flip?


I've been wondering the same thing. I would think that since the MS-8 is measuring system output, what matters is that the drivers are in phase relative to one another. So I would imagine switching the polarity on the tweeter would be the thing to do.


----------



## quality_sound

With the MS-8 you ALWAYS connect everything in normal polarity.


----------



## thehatedguy

Now what about a 3 way center with 12 dB slopes using the xos in the amp to cross between the midbass and midrange and a passive between the mid/tweet? Normally you would flip the midrange to make it "right" with the tweeter and midbass.


----------



## Matt R

The 180* phase shift is at the xover point and lessens the further you get away from it til it gets back to 0*. Reversing the phase of the speaker will make a small bandwidth "in phase" at the xover point but the further you get from the xover point it will go towards 180* out. The bulk of it would be out of phase.

It seems like it would make sence if you had a very small bandwidth of one driver for it to be 180* out of phase at 12db because the bulk of the freq played would be in phase. 

You have a 3 way, you could prolly go 6db linear phase if the speakers are close to each other with great success.


----------



## 14642

thehatedguy said:


> Andy this might be a dumb question, but when using 12 dB XO settings for the MS-8, do you still need to connect the speakers in phase at the amp, or reverse phase since LR12 has 180 degree phase flip?


Connect all the speakers in proper polarity. MS-8 will switch the polarity according to the crossover slopes you input. I suggest 4th order.


----------



## 14642

Vitty said:


> Could someone shed some light on this question....
> 
> If the MS-8 is supposed to sum all the input signals and I am tapping the high level inputs AFTER my factory amplifier for FL FR, SubL and SubR, if the factory amp removes some frequencies from its output signal, does the MS-8 lose these frequencies or does it somehow try to fill them in? My main concern is the subwoofer output on my factory Bose amp. Is there any chance Bose could have a subsonic filter on there which is actually much higher than what my current setup can play? If so I would assume I am losing out on this signal....Am I correct in thinking this, and is that a situation Bose would have possibly done?


This is a common misunderstanding. Crossover don't completely remove frequencies. They remove them gradually and the rate at which they are removed is the crossover slope. MS-8 includes plenty of boost and cut capability in the UN-EQ, so the answer is that MS-8 will put them back in unless the slopes are really steep and you're missing a wide band of frequencies. 

No OE systems do this, though, so you should be fine with your connection scheme.


----------



## 14642

Matt R said:


> The 180* phase shift is at the xover point and lessens the further you get away from it til it gets back to 0*. Reversing the phase of the speaker will make a small bandwidth "in phase" at the xover point but the further you get from the xover point it will go towards 180* out. The bulk of it would be out of phase.
> 
> It seems like it would make sence if you had a very small bandwidth of one driver for it to be 180* out of phase at 12db because the bulk of the freq played would be in phase.
> 
> You have a 3 way, you could prolly go 6db linear phase if the speakers are close to each other with great success.


Hey Matt, 
I don't recommend gradual slopes in cars for crossovers. For infrasonic filters, they work fine. 1st order linear phase crossovers are OK in rooms where we hear mostly the sound of the speaker and less of the room since the reflecting surfaces are far away (inverse square law). In cars, the reflecting surfaces are very close and also close to the speakers. the frequency response of the speaker matters only a little in cars, because the car's response governs. For this reason, it's best to keep speakers from overlapping--prevents even more sources from playing the same frequencies. Plus, it helps to eliminate the high frequency cone distortion modes from polluting the off-axis response, which makes EQ more difficult. This is especially effective for a 3-way system in the front.


----------



## Briznow

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Connect all the speakers in proper polarity. MS-8 will switch the polarity according to the crossover slopes you input. I suggest 4th order.


I was wondering more along the lines of passive crossovers. If I've got a passive LR2 between the tweeter and woofer of my center channel, surely the MS-8 can't do anything with the polarity of the drivers (relative to each other) on the other side of the network?


----------



## 14642

Briznow said:


> I was wondering more along the lines of passive crossovers. If I've got a passive LR2 between the tweeter and woofer of my center channel, surely the MS-8 can't do anything with the polarity of the drivers (relative to each other) on the other side of the network?


No, MS-8 can't change the polarity of the drivers separately if they're connected to a passive network, but the polarity reversal, if required, is probably included in the passive network. This, of course, depends on the competence of the passive network's designer. Don't stress over that. Connect + to + and - to -.


----------



## tdrcrew

Since I still have to wait for the Bit Ten I figured "what the heck" and reran the whole setup by myself. I'm not sure if anything improved (I did everything the way Andy said, all gains/input sensitivities on 2V etc) because I couldn't play too loud due to the neighbours 

I am having some weird problem with the AUX input of my HU and I am wondering if it's my HU or the MS-8. I can set three different levels for AUX input, I, II and III. If I use I hear digital distortion (think of a really bad MP3) and if I use II or III the digital distortion disappears although you can really hear that the sound is distorted (different than the digital distortion) because it probably is choking somewhere due to the high volume (I think that happens within my HU!). I tried with my laptop, iPhone and iPod and all have the same thing. With my laptop having some higher output levels I can easily repeat it by playing with the volume slider. Too low, digital distortion, high enough and the digital distortion goes away. It does npt happen when playing a CD!

I'm not sure how else to explain it. Is it possible that the MS-8 does something weird with a signal that is too low and tries to (over)compensate? I can't believe that my cheap factory HU creates the digital distortion as I would imagine that I would also notice it when playing CD's.

It is not clipping, this only happens when the source is probably playing at a too low level. I also don't have this when using the AUX input on the MS-8 only when using the AUX input on my HU.

Cheers


----------



## kaigoss69

tdrcrew said:


> Since I still have to wait for the Bit Ten I figured "what the heck" and reran the whole setup by myself. I'm not sure if anything improved (I did everything the way Andy said, all gains/input sensitivities on 2V etc) because I couldn't play too loud due to the neighbours
> 
> I am having some weird problem with the AUX input of my HU and I am wondering if it's my HU or the MS-8. I can set three different levels for AUX input, I, II and III. If I use I hear digital distortion (think of a really bad MP3) and if I use II or III the digital distortion disappears although you can really hear that the sound is distorted (different than the digital distortion) because it probably is choking somewhere due to the high volume (I think that happens within my HU!). I tried with my laptop, iPhone and iPod and all have the same thing. With my laptop having some higher output levels I can easily repeat it by playing with the volume slider. Too low, digital distortion, high enough and the digital distortion goes away. It does npt happen when playing a CD!
> 
> I'm not sure how else to explain it. Is it possible that the MS-8 does something weird with a signal that is too low and tries to (over)compensate? I can't believe that my cheap factory HU creates the digital distortion as I would imagine that I would also notice it when playing CD's.
> 
> It is not clipping, this only happens when the source is probably playing at a too low level. I also don't have this when using the AUX input on the MS-8 only when using the AUX input on my HU.
> 
> Cheers


If the CD sounds fine, then your HU must do something funky with your AUX input signal. This does not sound like an MS-8 issue... Have you tried connecting your ipod to the MS-8's AUX input?


----------



## tdrcrew

kaigoss69 said:


> If the CD sounds fine, then your HU must do something funky with your AUX input signal. This does not sound like an MS-8 issue... Have you tried connecting your ipod to the MS-8's AUX input?


Yes, and then I don't hear it. I will try again tomorrow just to make sure that I heard correctly and I'm not crazy 

Funky indeed... It might be better the throw it out for an aftermarket one. It is really annoying to say the least

Cheers


----------



## 14642

Wow. that's strange. What car and what head unit?


----------



## tdrcrew

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Wow. that's strange. What car and what head unit?


It's a Seat Ibiza (FR Bocanegra) 6J 2011

I have attached a photo of the headunit I found as I don't have picture ready. Not sure who the manufacturer is... (might be Blaupunkt)

Here is a video (not mine):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFy6AdBPvwY


----------



## JJAZ

subwoofery said:


> Well there you go JJAZ. From Netherlands to Denmark, shipping shouldn't cost a fortune...
> 
> Kelvin


Just bought one from DAT.. Decent unit cost, decent shipping  Looking forward to receive my new toy


----------



## 14642

Hmmm...very strange. Obviously setting I is a bad deal. Does it sound OK if you use settings II or III and adjust the volume control of the iPod or is the iPod fixed level when you plug it into the deck? 

Of course, I'm not familiar with that car, since we don't have Seat's over here.

I am curious about the rest of your MS-8 performance. I got the impression from your post that you haven't been all that happy with it. I'll be in the Netherlands in early May. If it's still in your car, how about a beer and a demo? I'll be in Amsterdam. Where are you?


----------



## ISTundra

If anyone here is familiar with the MS-8 in an IS350 (non-ML w/NAV) and is willing to help me offline -I'm willing to make it worth your time. If you're in the Phoenix area, even better...

In a nutshell...

I can only get ok,ok,ok, when the HU DSP position setting is set to driver, which then results in right side bias and distortion in the right side drivers (which goes away with processing off). At all other DSP settings I get signal none.

I have a severe turn-off pop, which has been temporarily been remedied with an LC8 in front of the MS-8.
I've been through my system a million times, tried all the common recommendations posted, reached out to Andy and JBL Tech support, even took my car to a trusted local shop and yet I'm still dealing with the same issues. This has been the most frustrating thing I've ever dealt with in car audio.

If you're game, I can give full system details but at this point I want to do this offline.


----------



## tdrcrew

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hmmm...very strange. Obviously setting I is a bad deal. Does it sound OK if you use settings II or III and adjust the volume control of the iPod or is the iPod fixed level when you plug it into the deck?
> 
> Of course, I'm not familiar with that car, since we don't have Seat's over here.
> 
> I am curious about the rest of your MS-8 performance. I got the impression from your post that you haven't been all that happy with it. I'll be in the Netherlands in early May. If it's still in your car, how about a beer and a demo? I'll be in Amsterdam. Where are you?


Setting II and III fix the first problem but introduce another, now I'm overpowering the input causing different distortion  The AUX input on the HU has 1 jack and 1 USB connection. I have a special ipod/iphone cable which connects with the dock connector to my/ipod. Can't change the volume on that. So I tried jack -> jack, ipod on the loudest setting same digital distortion so I can rule out the ipod. I first noticed this when using an USB stick with mp3's so I figured the radio had a bad MP3 decoder orso. But it also happens with analogue signals so that is kind of strange. Could it be an internal problem with an ADC/DAC?

Indeed performance has been so-so. First I got the clock radio sound which sounded horrible so I went back to the installer. They tried to fix it, didn't work. Still the sound was horrible and I went back again, had my doors and rears installed with dynamat. This did help alot but it still didn't sound right. That is why I asked if JBL has some demo car in the NL so I can hear what it is supposed to sound. Perhaps I just don't like the sound, that is ofcourse possible. Might still be install errors, user errors and what not. I don't think it does some black magic (didn't see anything in the manual at least) 

Changing the MS-8 has been planned for April but I can hold them off and wait for you to come to the NL, I am near Amsterdam so that could work out.

Either way, it has been a great learning experience. I did alot of reading and have a much better understanding of what I have and how it works.

Just wondering if it makes sense to connect an aftermarket HU to the highlevel input. Would that make a difference SQ-wise? I guess using RCA is better but during installation I forget to ask my installer to pull an RCA and I don't want my car upside down again  All in all it has costed me enough 

Thanks!


----------



## subwoofery

tdrcrew said:


> Setting II and III fix the first problem but introduce another, now I'm overpowering the input causing different distortion  The AUX input on the HU has 1 jack and 1 USB connection. I have a special ipod/iphone cable which connects with the dock connector to my/ipod. Can't change the volume on that. So I tried jack -> jack, ipod on the loudest setting same digital distortion so I can rule out the ipod. I first noticed this when using an USB stick with mp3's so I figured the radio had a bad MP3 decoder orso. But it also happens with analogue signals so that is kind of strange. Could it be an internal problem with an ADC/DAC?
> 
> Indeed performance has been so-so. First I got the clock radio sound which sounded horrible so I went back to the installer. They tried to fix it, didn't work. Still the sound was horrible and I went back again, had my doors and rears installed with dynamat. This did help alot but it still didn't sound right. That is why I asked if JBL has some demo car in the NL so I can hear what it is supposed to sound. Perhaps I just don't like the sound, that is ofcourse possible.
> 
> Changing the MS-8 has been planned for April but I can hold them off and wait for you to come to the NL, I am near Amsterdam so that could work out.
> 
> Thanks!


Did you try the Aux In from the MS-8 itself? Just to know if you get a faulty MS-8 or just a compatibility issue between the factory HU and the MS-8... 

Kelvin


----------



## tdrcrew

subwoofery said:


> Did you try the Aux In from the MS-8 itself? Just to know if you get a faulty MS-8 or just a compatibility issue between the factory HU and the MS-8...
> 
> Kelvin


I tried the AUX in again on the MS-8 and I don't have the same problem. I thought the I, II and III setting of the AUX in on the HU fixed the problem but the sound seems still there only less audible. No problems when listening to a CD or MP3 CD, only when using the AUX in on the HU (either using a third party ipod connector, USB or Jack). I only notice it when only hearing a piano or violin, something that plays softly. You can then easily hear the digital distortion/clipping (not sure how to call it).

I've always had aftermarket HU's and never had stuff like this going on. In my new car I decided "what the heck" and keep it factory default. You keep to have your $20 factory radio but spent $1000 on something to pimp it up and even more on speakers, sub and amplifiers. I do understand that if you have your airco controls in it you don't have much choice, but otherwise... Perhaps the BMW's have better quality factory HU's and that's why it doesn't work in my case.

I just should have know better to think that you can make honey from crap


----------



## 14642

TD,
Try setting the amps at 2V and turning the MS-8 volume WAY down during acoustic calibration. Try -40. 

I don't know what to tell you about the Aux input issue. Sounds like bad D/A or A/D combined with input clipping to me. If you're into experimentation, try running the Headphone output of the iPod to MS-8 and leaving the 32-pin connector in place. Then, you can have the clean output of the iPod going to MS-8 and you'll still be able to control the iPod with the radio. When you switch to AUX on MS-8, the distortion in the radio won't matter because you won't be using that signal.


----------



## tdrcrew

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> TD,
> Try setting the amps at 2V and turning the MS-8 volume WAY down during acoustic calibration. Try -40.
> 
> I don't know what to tell you about the Aux input issue. Sounds like bad D/A or A/D combined with input clipping to me. If you're into experimentation, try running the Headphone output of the iPod to MS-8 and leaving the 32-pin connector in place. Then, you can have the clean output of the iPod going to MS-8 and you'll still be able to control the iPod with the radio. When you switch to AUX on MS-8, the distortion in the radio won't matter because you won't be using that signal.


Hi Andy,

I did exactly as you said, all amps at 2V, MS-8 volume at -45. It does sound better, as far as I could tell but will have to listen more on the way to work. I have changed to input sensitivity back to what it was before calibrating, I guess that is not a problem? My installer set it to something like 5V orso, just want to make sure it won't give any problems if I might swap the MS-8 for something else (or swap the HU and keep the MS-8 

Regarding the iPod, I was thinking about the exact same solution 

I have tried again today as I said and the problems still persist when processing is on "Defeat" so I assume this would disable all processing whatsoever on the MS-8. Can't be anything else than the HU.

Would an aftermarket HU on the HI level input give a problem? This would be the easiest to test since I don't have an RCA from the front to the back, only that HI level cable.

Don't you know someone from JBL in the Netherlands that could help me? Or if they have some demo car/room? I'm sure there must be something they can do  I am willing to go anywhere in the NL and I also willing to pay for the beer 

Thanks!


----------



## BuickGN

I saw this question posted but I never saw a reply..... When you turn the processing to "off", crossovers are still in effect, right? I'm getting ready to run my tweeters passive next weekend but right now I have no bass blockers. I have no plans to turn processing off ever again but still curious.


----------



## 14642

Yes, crossovers remain intact.


----------



## BuickGN

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, crossovers remain intact.


Thank you. I really appreciate all of the help on the thousands of posts about the MS8. When I first installed it I thought I had made a mistake in my purchase. After reading up on it for nearly a week around here and doing simple changes, this is the best sounding system I've ever owned.


----------



## softdome

The MS-8 seems to be the ideal solution to tuning a system. I understand that the unit has 8 inputs and 8 outputs, however is there ant problems when using a HU with DVD-A, Sacd, DD & DTS processing with front LR, Rear LR, Ctr & sub (mono)?. I'm also trying to devise a way to add side channel (Door speakers). With the (Logic7) configuration this seems to be somehat like the Lexicon processors I've used for years in Home theater.


----------



## bee200sx

Hey guys,

I have searched this post for "Bluetooth" and I can't seem to find whether or not the issue has been fixed other than turning logic 7 off. Has the Bluetooth echo been fixed? Or is there a fix. I'm planning on getting the MS-8 to run with parrot Bluetooth.

Cheers


----------



## hallsc

A solution has been posted regarding this in one of the other threads f or the MS-8. It does, however, invole an extra set of speakers (and possibly amp channels). I will explain it under the assumption you have an aftermarket HU, and will be using another set of speakers/amp channels:

1. Connect the Rear outputs of your HU to the inputs for the MS-8.
2. Connect the Front outputs of your HU to a cheap two-channel amp.
3. Use the two-channel amp to power a pair of cheap 3-4" full range speakers (plenty of them out there) or coaxials. These will be your BT speakers. Mount them anywhere you like (under the dash should work, they will be out of the way and since you aren't worried about SQ, you just need to be able to hear them)
4. Fade your HU all the way to the rear, sending all of the normal HU signal to the MS-8, run the calibration, and lenjoy
5. BT phone calls will be sent to the Fronts only, even if the HU is faded completely to the rear. This will be coming from the HU and not the MS-8, and will therefore be under no time delay.

I can't say this will work for every HU; it was "discovered"/recommended by someone else, so it works for his/her HU, and although I have not installed my MS-8, I have verified that when my HU is faded to the rear, BT calls still come through on the front speakers (and the front speakers only). Test this out on your HU, and if this is the case, You should be good to go. 

If you do not have an aftermarket HU, I think this solution is still manageable, but would require splitting the stock unit high outputs to multiple wiring harnesses. Again, you would have to verify that BT comes in only on the fronts (I don't even want to think about how awful that would sound if they came in through both, wired in the configuration above), but it should be the same concept.


----------



## 14642

softdome said:


> The MS-8 seems to be the ideal solution to tuning a system. I understand that the unit has 8 inputs and 8 outputs, however is there ant problems when using a HU with DVD-A, Sacd, DD & DTS processing with front LR, Rear LR, Ctr & sub (mono)?. I'm also trying to devise a way to add side channel (Door speakers). With the (Logic7) configuration this seems to be somehat like the Lexicon processors I've used for years in Home theater.


MS-8 can't downmix the channels from discreet multichannel sources. However, if you choose the 2-channel downmix in the DVD player's setup menu, MS-8 will play it back in full surround.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I don't really understand this exercise. I have heard reports that consumers like the tune better at different levels, but I haven't been able to verify with a unit we have here that there are significant differences in the EQ at different levels within the range that MS-8 likes to see. Once we have another unit in a car, I'll tyr to do some measurements to sort this out, but I do have this to say about the post above:
> 
> Why would you attempt to test the validity of equalization designed to improve the acoustic response of the system with a volt meter, a frequency generator and using your eyes to judge the excursion of the speaker. Even your measurements suggest that MS-8 is, in fact, attenuating the near side speaker to match the levels, but without an understanding of the before and after acoustic responses, this is no way to check the performance.
> 
> One thing that may affect the tuning at different levels is that in many cases, a certain amount of energy is necessary to energize room (or in this case, car) modes. At VERY low volumes, these modes may not be energized. Most of my suggestions are based on experience, but this one is mostly conjecture. This is absolutely the case in larger rooms, but I have never attempted to verify it in cars. Maybe that's the next project.
> 
> Anyway, An EQ increases and decreases output VOLTAGE according to the correction filter. If you're trying to get even midbass according to output voltage from the right and left, you're just attempting to un-EQ the EQ.


Andy,

I was expecting that sort of reply, and I agree with most of what you said. I realize that you cannot use a voltmeter to make sense of the processing being applied by the MS-8. However, I believe that physical cone movement of a woofer, SPL, and RMS voltage are directly related. When one woofer is moving less than the other, and in some cases being fed about half of the voltage of the other, I can't help but feel the need to investigate. I could be wrong but I feel that in my case the MS-8 is leaving SPL "on the table" by not supplying more power to the right side woofer. I can see where the MS-8 needs to balance the levels of midranges and tweeters, for stageing and imaging, but aren't frequencies below 100Hz omnidirectional? 

Since the calibration volume seems to affect the "balance of power" to the woofers, I felt it was important to experiment with different volume levels in the hopes of finding a better balanced set-up. After measuring the voltages, I proceeded to measure SPL levels but I stopped because the results did not make much sense to me...(perhaps my iphone mic is not accurate enough below 100Hz).

Anyway, the last calibration I did resulted in the best SQ I have had to date, so I have stopped further experiments as I am now afraid to recalibrate, ever! Never mind any potential difference in output right now, it just sounds too damn good! 

Andy, I do believe however that you need to further look into the question of calibration volume since it has come up several times here and the results seem to differ greatly and the final result is sensitive to the calibration volume AND level setting between the different speakers in the system. I don't see why it would be so difficult to have the MS-8 measure the volumes of each channel during the sweeps and let you know if/when there are any issues that need to be corrected...


----------



## tdrcrew

Wow,

This things keeps amazing me. I tried the AUX input trick (again) on the MS-8 just to listen what happens on a long drive. Boy! I connected my ipad with the volume at its loudest setting and when I started my car I could softly hear the music from my iPad altough the input setting "Headunit" was selected. It was very distorted though!

I must have a bad unit or this product is seriously flawed. I have tried everything really and the result is everytime the same. Now I am not that good with car audio but I'm not stupid and this product claims to be easy to install and what not. Nobody seems to know what is going on and you get no answers on serious questions. I also get the idea that on one day I tune the thing and it sounds great and the next day it sounds like crap as if it lost it settings some how!

I'm really sorry Andy but I would have expected that you could at least respond to my question about a contact from JBL in The Netherlands. You will certainly have your reasons for not responding to some questions throughout this thread.

If JBL doesn't want to know about this problem, too bad. They probably don't care too much about losing a customer.


----------



## subwoofery

tdrcrew said:


> Wow,
> 
> This things keeps amazing me. I tried the AUX input trick (again) on the MS-8 just to listen what happens on a long drive. Boy! I connected my ipad with the volume at its loudest setting and when I started my car I could softly hear the music from my iPad altough the input setting "Headunit" was selected. It was very distorted though!
> 
> I must have a bad unit or this product is seriously flawed. I have tried everything really and the result is everytime the same. Now I am not that good with car audio but I'm not stupid and this product claims to be easy to install and what not. Nobody seems to know what is going on and you get no answers on serious questions. I also get the idea that on one day I tune the thing and it sounds great and the next day it sounds like crap as if it lost it settings some how!
> 
> I'm really sorry Andy but I would have expected that you could at least respond to my question about a contact from JBL in The Netherlands. You will certainly have your reasons for not responding to some questions throughout this thread.
> 
> If JBL doesn't want to know about this problem, too bad. They probably don't care too much about losing a customer.


 Andy doesn't carry his computer wherever he goes. Give him some time to reply. 

Some things I don't understand, you said that you use max volume from your iPad and you get very little music? 
What kind of cable did you use from your iPad to MS-8? I suggest you try and find a jack to RCA cable to be used between your iPad and the MS-8. 
^ that way, if you still have bad distorsion, you can be sure it's a faulty MS-8 that you got. 
iPad ---> jack to RCA ---> Aux Input from MS-8 /// (no OEM headunit involved)

Kelvin


----------



## tdrcrew

subwoofery said:


> Andy doesn't carry his computer wherever he goes. Give him some time to reply.
> 
> Some things I don't understand, you said that you use max volume from your iPad and you get very little music?
> What kind of cable did you use from your iPad to MS-8? I suggest you try and find a jack to RCA cable to be used between your iPad and the MS-8.
> ^ that way, if you still have bad distorsion, you can be sure it's a faulty MS-8 that you got.
> iPad ---> jack to RCA ---> Aux Input from MS-8 /// (no OEM headunit involved)
> 
> Kelvin


I understand he doesn't carry his computer everywhere but he did reply to BuickGN... He doesn't have to reply on my posts at all, I understand but I just find it a bit strange. Must be me then.

I'll try to explain it again  English is not my first language

I had my iPad on max volume, connected it to the AUX in of the MS-8. The active input was "Headunit" and not "AUX" on the remote display. I could hear the music from my iPad very softly and distorted. Ofcourse when I switched to AUX I could hear it like it is supposed to. But it is very strange that I would hear something at all. Sounds like the AUX input is overlapping/interfering with the HI level speaker input.

The cable I used is a Monster cable with gold plated connections that I have used before so I know it is good.

I really do appreciate all the replies I got but I'm growing more frustrated by the day. I think I even pissed off my installer so this really hasn't been a succes for me at all 

I'm just going to give up since there is not much more I can do at this moment.


----------



## rain27

Why would you try to listen to the aux source when the ms-8 is switched to headunit?


----------



## brianhj

rain27 said:


> Why would you try to listen to the aux source when the ms-8 is switched to headunit?


I think the more important question is why could he hear the music playing at all in headunit mode?


----------



## SSSnake

I think you are missing the point. The aux input is bleeding into the mains. Not an unusual problem but depending on the level it can be annoying.


----------



## BuickGN

Its funny you mention it sounding like it lost its settings overnight. I recently turned the tweeter level up and the whole system came alive, it sounded great. I bragged to some friends and when they came to hear it the next day, the tweeters were way too loud. I figured it was my hearing which it probably was.


----------



## rain27

I believe my unit does this as well, but never considered it a problem because when you use the proper input, it sounds perfectly fine.


----------



## Duper

tdrcrew said:


> I understand he doesn't carry his computer everywhere but he did reply to BuickGN... He doesn't have to reply on my posts at all, I understand but I just find it a bit strange. Must be me then.
> 
> I'll try to explain it again  English is not my first language
> 
> I had my iPad on max volume, connected it to the AUX in of the MS-8. The active input was "Headunit" and not "AUX" on the remote display. I could hear the music from my iPad very softly and distorted. Ofcourse when I switched to AUX I could hear it like it is supposed to. But it is very strange that I would hear something at all. Sounds like the AUX input is overlapping/interfering with the HI level speaker input.
> 
> The cable I used is a Monster cable with gold plated connections that I have used before so I know it is good.
> 
> I really do appreciate all the replies I got but I'm growing more frustrated by the day. I think I even pissed off my installer so this really hasn't been a succes for me at all
> 
> I'm just going to give up since there is not much more I can do at this moment.


Do you have your headphone mic also plugged in? This will cause the issue you're reporting.


----------



## asat11

I'm considering one of these MS-8's and I want to install the unit in my spare tire well - (rubber lined and in with some amps) but I was wondering if I use an extension for the headphones (no access to head unit after install) will that afffect the system in any way (not leaving the mic plugged in but having as extension plugged in) also - I need to use the aux in for an mp3 player in source - will there be any detriment by running the rca's for the aux in from the trunk to the front?


----------



## tdrcrew

Duper said:


> Do you have your headphone mic also plugged in? This will cause the issue you're reporting.


No I double checked just to make sure


----------



## tdrcrew

BuickGN said:


> Its funny you mention it sounding like it lost its settings overnight. I recently turned the tweeter level up and the whole system came alive, it sounded great. I bragged to some friends and when they came to hear it the next day, the tweeters were way too loud. I figured it was my hearing which it probably was.


Might be my hearing too then... But it really sounded bad, like ear piercing bad. You might think I would have noticed that.


----------



## tdrcrew

rain27 said:


> Why would you try to listen to the aux source when the ms-8 is switched to headunit?


I don't I had to change the input, but before I got the chance I noticed the problem


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## tdrcrew

rain27 said:


> I believe my unit does this as well, but never considered it a problem because when you use the proper input, it sounds perfectly fine.


If you have it too it must be "normal" then.


----------



## Joker_927

This thread seems too big 

I just got an ms-8. I am having a very hard time getting the unit to give any bass to my front components. I have a set of alpines SPX-17REF and these are known for their midbass yet compared to no ms-8, I hear very little kick. 

Anyway setting my crossover at 50hz with a 12db slope let me keep the bass image up front. However this is when the car is idle. Any road noise and I'm back to hearing no mids at all. 

Any ideas? Or can anyone point me to some reading on what frequencys to raise to counter road noise? (I'm hopeing to avoid buying a mic and TrueRTA.)


----------



## brianhj

This seems to be a problem with every type of "auto eq" device out there. From imprint to pioneer's autoeq to the ms-8. When things are leveled out, the mid-hi's and highs seem to be prominent. Maybe it's the way our ears work. I have a feeling that when most people tune manually, they go for a little boost in the bottom end to make up for that.

Can't you just adjust the EQ after the MS-8 auto setup? I guess you're asking for specific frequencies to raise to counter the road noise. I would assume it's in the 60-100 range


----------



## kaigoss69

Joker_927 said:


> This thread seems too big
> 
> I just got an ms-8. I am having a very hard time getting the unit to give any bass to my front components. I have a set of alpines SPX-17REF and these are known for their midbass yet compared to no ms-8, I hear very little kick.
> 
> Anyway setting my crossover at 50hz with a 12db slope let me keep the bass image up front. However this is when the car is idle. Any road noise and I'm back to hearing no mids at all.
> 
> Any ideas? Or can anyone point me to some reading on what frequencys to raise to counter road noise? (I'm hopeing to avoid buying a mic and TrueRTA.)


What volume did you use to calibrate? Are the mid bass drivers on separate channels or are you using the passives? Trunk sub?


----------



## BuickGN

Joker_927 said:


> This thread seems too big
> 
> I just got an ms-8. I am having a very hard time getting the unit to give any bass to my front components. I have a set of alpines SPX-17REF and these are known for their midbass yet compared to no ms-8, I hear very little kick.
> 
> Anyway setting my crossover at 50hz with a 12db slope let me keep the bass image up front. However this is when the car is idle. Any road noise and I'm back to hearing no mids at all.
> 
> Any ideas? Or can anyone point me to some reading on what frequencys to raise to counter road noise? (I'm hopeing to avoid buying a mic and TrueRTA.)


I'm no expert, I've only had the MS8 for 3 weeks.... But I had the same issue and cured it by turning the midbass gains down during the auto eq. Midbass came back, almost as good as before the MS8. I had the same problem with the sub with the same solution.


----------



## quietfly

Joker_927 said:


> This thread seems too big
> 
> I just got an ms-8. I am having a very hard time getting the unit to give any bass to my front components. I have a set of alpines SPX-17REF and these are known for their midbass yet compared to no ms-8, I hear very little kick.
> 
> Anyway setting my crossover at 50hz with a 12db slope let me keep the bass image up front. However this is when the car is idle. Any road noise and I'm back to hearing no mids at all.
> 
> Any ideas? Or can anyone point me to some reading on what frequencys to raise to counter road noise? (I'm hopeing to avoid buying a mic and TrueRTA.)



whats your entire setup like? are you running active or passive? its hard to tell with out know the rest of your system but my guess would be your cross over points are not correct.


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## nineball

Joker_927 said:


> I just got an ms-8. I am having a very hard time getting the unit to give any bass to my front components. I have a set of alpines SPX-17REF and these are known for their midbass yet compared to no ms-8, I hear very little kick.


i have always found the opposite to be true with all the spx mids i have owned - lackluster output. tweets are great but i've replaced all the mids.


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## tdrcrew

I'm just wondering as my knowledge about this subject is slim at best.

I've read throughout this thread and other threads that TA is not possible with passive crossovers. I happen to have passive crossovers for the front and the sides.

How does this work with the MS-8 which does TA AFAIK.

Does it work in some cases but not in others? Who can explain it to me 

Oh, and what happens if your tweeters are located far from the midbass speakers? Midbass are located low in the door (near my feet) and the tweeters are above the dash on each side of the front window. Would that affect the results dramatically?

Thanks!


----------



## kaigoss69

tdrcrew said:


> I'm just wondering as my knowledge about this subject is slim at best.
> 
> I've read throughout this thread and other threads that TA is not possible with passive crossovers. I happen to have passive crossovers for the front and the sides.
> 
> How does this work with the MS-8 which does TA AFAIK.
> 
> Does it work in some cases but not in others? Who can explain it to me
> 
> Oh, and what happens if your tweeters are located far from the midbass speakers? Midbass are located low in the door (near my feet) and the tweeters are above the dash on each side of the front window. Would that affect the results dramatically?
> 
> Thanks!


You didn't ready far enough. Cover up the tweeters during the first sweep, which is for TA. Uncover them for the following sweeps.


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## tdrcrew

kaigoss69 said:


> You didn't ready far enough. Cover up the tweeters during the first sweep, which is for TA. Uncover them for the following sweeps.


I tried that trick (by using towels) but it didn't make any noticable difference...


----------



## quietfly

some times you need to completely disconnect them for the first four sweeps.


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## tdrcrew

quietfly said:


> some times you need to completely disconnect them for the first four sweeps.


Aha! In my case not really an option because the installation has already been done and opening the whole thing up isn't something I can do. I am very interested in what would happen.

This sure shows that it isn't really that easy as they advertise...


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## rain27

How would this work with a 3-way passive setup?


----------



## Duper

It might be my imagination, but I swear it ssound better if I have the ms8 measure all four seat locations than just the drivers and / or passengers seats. it's as if it has a better understanding of the specific layout of my car. I've been much happier since I've started taking all four measurements.


----------



## quietfly

tdrcrew said:


> Aha! In my case not really an option because the installation has already been done and opening the whole thing up isn't something I can do. I am very interested in what would happen.
> 
> This sure shows that it isn't really that easy as they advertise...


try using something much heavier to cover them.


----------



## asat11

tdrcrew said:


> Aha! In my case not really an option because the installation has already been done and opening the whole thing up isn't something I can do. I am very interested in what would happen.
> 
> This sure shows that it isn't really that easy as they advertise...


Where do they advertise how easy it is? Even the owners manual tells you if you can't do it yourself then take it to an authorized JBL installer, they also say they designed it with a DIY guy in mind that has experience doing removal of minimal stuff. I think the "easy" is implied to mean the results that can be obtained by an average installer without the years of trial and error and ear and instrumentation training required to become a proficient "Tuner" (as well as the $$$ to buy all that stuff). 
I checked the manual and none of the reccomended installations show using aftermarket passive crossovers - the reccomended install using seperate components and amps shows an active install. 
I have passives in my setup and I am buying an MS-8 - and another amp as well to go active as I read somewhere in this thread that Andy was asked straight up if active or passive would perform better and he said an active system - now it may be possible to "fool" or manipulate the system with various calibration techniques but I would think that the results of those manipulations would be far from optimal. 
I figure why not just do the necessary changes needed to get the most from the MS-8's design considerations, another amp, some silk tweeters, find the optimal location for the tweets, and then enjoy!! I'll let you guys know how it all turns out...


----------



## tdrcrew

asat11 said:


> Where do they advertise how easy it is? Even the owners manual tells you if you can't do it yourself then take it to an authorized JBL installer, they also say they designed it with a DIY guy in mind that has experience doing removal of minimal stuff. I think the "easy" is implied to mean the results that can be obtained by an average installer without the years of trial and error and ear and instrumentation training required to become a proficient "Tuner" (as well as the $$$ to buy all that stuff).
> I checked the manual and none of the reccomended installations show using aftermarket passive crossovers - the reccomended install using seperate components and amps shows an active install.
> I have passives in my setup and I am buying an MS-8 - and another amp as well to go active as I read somewhere in this thread that Andy was asked straight up if active or passive would perform better and he said an active system - now it may be possible to "fool" or manipulate the system with various calibration techniques but I would think that the results of those manipulations would be far from optimal.
> I figure why not just do the necessary changes needed to get the most from the MS-8's design considerations, another amp, some silk tweeters, find the optimal location for the tweets, and then enjoy!! I'll let you guys know how it all turns out...


I agree with you there  What I meant as easy wasn't the installation but the SQ tuning. If I had known what I know now, I would have gone active.

Not much I can do about it now


----------



## 14642

No, you don't have to go active. The deal with covering the tweeters is that ALL automatic time alignment setting algorithms look for high frequency content to determine the location of the speakers. If you use passives, then MS-8 (like all other devices) will locate the tweeter, because it has more high frequency content. Covering the tweeter causes it to locate the mid, which is where TA is most beneficial. Then, the EQ will fix the "image" at high frequencies, which is more effective anyway because we don't hear phase differences very easily at high frequencies. 

Disconnecting or covering the tweeters for the first 4 measurements is definitely not correct. Only the first in each of the seats.


----------



## 14642

tdrcrew said:


> I tried that trick (by using towels) but it didn't make any noticable difference...


a single layer of towel is just grille cloth--not thick enough to block the sound. Use a piece of cardboard or some tape.


----------



## asat11

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, you don't have to go active. .......


:blush: My bad.... been doing alot of reading, thought I read that in here somewhere - so is there no advantage to going with an active setup? Should I not invest in a amp and just go with my front / rear passives and sub?


----------



## BuickGN

asat11 said:


> :blush: My bad.... been doing alot of reading, thought I read that in here somewhere - so is there no advantage to going with an active setup? Should I not invest in a amp and just go with my front / rear passives and sub?


It's not necessary to go active but there are advantages to it.


----------



## asat11

BuickGN said:


> It's not necessary to go active but there are advantages to it.


Can you elaborate? not a laundry list but maybe some insight? Thanks!


----------



## detawx

So have calibrated my system and it sounds exceptional. I just have two items I want to ask about. My sub is barely firing after setup , I even boosted the sub level on the MS8. I have a nice amount of midbass maybe even too much(i just need to eq some more but everything is flat according to my rta) The other issue I have is when I have the listening select position to either driver or passenger the image is still in the center of the car. Shouldnt it be in the center of the driver/passenger seat and when I switch to Front it centers on the windshield?

Thanks


----------



## Joker_927

brianhj said:


> Can't you just adjust the EQ after the MS-8 auto setup? I guess you're asking for specific frequencies to raise to counter the road noise. I would assume it's in the 60-100 range


Yes you can. And thanks for the recommendation in freqs. I actually disconnected the sub while parked and WOW, no bass whatsoever is coming from my mids. I was simply hearing the sub and thought it was coming from the front. Something is up. I went to the EQ and this curve got my system back to normal. I must be doing something wrong for this curve to get me to what I thought the auto tune should be doing.





quietfly said:


> whats your entire setup like? are you running active or passive? its hard to tell with out know the rest of your system but my guess would be your cross over points are not correct.


System:
Front: SPX-17REF using the alpine passive crossovers for the mids/tweets
Side: SPS-600c 
Sub in hatch: JL 10w3v3 
Amp: kenwood xr-5s (80wx4 + 350w)

Sub/front crossover point is 50hz with 12 db/octive slope. Sides have 60hz high pass.



kaigoss69 said:


> What volume did you use to calibrate? Are the mid bass drivers on separate channels or are you using the passives? Trunk sub?


Same channels since passive. I have tried many volumes while calibrating. I have tried both too loud and too quiet. What worked best was setting the amp gains to 2v, running the auto config. Then raising all the gains to give good volume range on the HU knob. While volume is great, image is good, midbass is completely absent.

What i haven't done is stick my head in the back seat to see if the side speakers are giving any midbass. I'm guessing not. While they are (intentionally) crap speakers I think I would have heard if they were pputting out mid freqs.

I am open to ideas.


----------



## subwoofery

detawx said:


> So have calibrated my system and it sounds exceptional. I just have two items I want to ask about. My sub is barely firing after setup , I even boosted the sub level on the MS8. I have a nice amount of midbass maybe even too much(i just need to eq some more but everything is flat according to my rta) The other issue I have is when I have the listening select position to either driver or passenger the image is still in the center of the car. Shouldnt it be in the center of the driver/passenger seat and when I switch to Front it centers on the windshield?
> 
> Thanks


Regarding your subwoofer, you can either lower the gain on your sub amp and recalibrate or try to put more gain after the calibration. 

Now regarding the image in the center of the car, small analogy: 
At home, center channels are in between the L and R speakers, correct? The center channel is also equidistant to the L and R speakers ; where it should anyway be in order to have an even soundstage (unless you want a squashed L soundstage or R soundstage) ; correct? 
What about in a car that is equipped with a center channel? Is it in front of you or in between the L and R speakers yet equidistant to the L and R speakers? 

In my opinion, your calibration is correct  

Kelvin


----------



## 14642

Joker_927 said:


> Yes you can. And thanks for the recommendation in freqs. I actually disconnected the sub while parked and WOW, no bass whatsoever is coming from my mids. I was simply hearing the sub and thought it was coming from the front.
> http://img101.imageshack.us/i/photozbt.jpg/


MS-8 is designed to provide the impression that the bass comes from the front. If that's what you heard, then it did it's job. From your post, it sounds like it did it's job well enough to fool you. 

If you want your mids to make mre midbass simply because you want your mids to make more midbass, then that's what the 31-band EQ is for...or, you can move the crossover down, which will cause your front speakers to move more--that may not necessarily sound better, though.

If you don't care about the illusion of bass up front and you just want a bunch of midbass and don't care about the placement of midbass sounds in your stage, then boost the midbass in the 31-band EQ (as you've done) and turn up the input sensitivity on your sub amp. 

Getting the illusion of bass up front requires a precise EQ and a particular EQ curve. that's MS-8's target. Fortunately for those of you who prefer a different target, MS-8 has a cool tool to allow you get what you want--the 31-band EQ.


----------



## kaigoss69

Joker_927 said:


> I am open to ideas.


I would set xover to 24dB/oct.


----------



## tdrcrew

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> a single layer of towel is just grille cloth--not thick enough to block the sound. Use a piece of cardboard or some tape.


What would the effect be? I mean, what should I hear differently?

You know, I really had the strangest thing today when driving to work. I decided to turn processing to Active. Sub was too loud so I lowered the gain, set the EQ flat for the sub frequencies. I hopped in the car and off to work.

All of a sudden I noticed that the sides started playing pretty loud. Haven't had that before and as a whole everything sounded really good.

I haven't changed anything else than that. Isn't that just plain weird? Same songs, same iPhone, same everything basically  When I got to work I decided to put my head on the back seat and the sides really sound good. They have the tweeter right above the mid speaker so they are "one". The front mid speakers are located down low in the door and the tweeters high up just above the dash. I'm pretty sure that the front would sound alot better if they were closer together. 

Andy, would taping the tweeters in the first run really help the SQ?

Does anyone has an explanation as to why the sides would play this time and not the other? Am I really overlooking the obvious? 

Some bug (or hidden feature) that I seem to trigger all the time perhaps? I'm sure that on the way back to work it won't sound as good as it day this morning!

Today maybe the day that I finally start to realize that I'm crazy


----------



## subwoofery

tdrcrew said:


> What would the effect be? I mean, what should I hear differently?
> Andy suggested to cover the tweets only for calibration on the first sets of sweeps (please read a few post above, it has been explained in detail)
> 
> You know, I really had the strangest thing today when driving to work. I decided to turn processing to Active. Sub was too loud so I lowered the gain, set the EQ flat for the sub frequencies. I hopped in the car and off to work.
> 
> All of a sudden I noticed that the sides started playing pretty loud. Haven't had that before and as a whole everything sounded really good.
> 
> I haven't changed anything else than that. Isn't that just plain weird? Same songs, same iPhone, same everything basically  When I got to work I decided to put my head on the back seat and the sides really sound good. They have the tweeter right above the mid speaker so they are "one". The front mid speakers are located down low in the door and the tweeters high up just above the dash. I'm pretty sure that the front would sound alot better if they were closer together.
> 
> Andy, would taping the tweeters in the first run really help the SQ?
> 
> Does anyone has an explanation as to why the sides would play this time and not the other? Am I really overlooking the obvious?
> Who knows, maybe the polarity of your subwoofer is incorrect - you might have experienced a phase problem between your sides and your subwoofer.
> Make sure you have everything wired in absolute polarity (+ to + ; - to -)
> 
> Some bug (or hidden feature) that I seem to trigger all the time perhaps? I'm sure that on the way back to work it won't sound as good as it day this morning!
> 
> Today maybe the day that I finally start to realize that I'm crazy


Kelvin


----------



## tdrcrew

subwoofery said:


> Kelvin



You are missing the point, but thanks anyway 

Edit: Actually, after rereading your reply a few times it actually makes sense... I'm just wondering (if that is the problem) how they got in phase again...


----------



## draft6969

Is there any reason that JBL didnt make a unit without a built in amp? seems like they could have made one without the amp for people what already had amps and made it cheaper for everyone.


----------



## CraigE

Below is the link to an excellent thread that has questions and answers, as well as a lot of good info about the MS-8.

It's only three pages long !!!
Kind of a Reader's Digest version of this 200 page thread. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq.html




___________________


----------



## kaigoss69

draft6969 said:


> Is there any reason that JBL didnt make a unit without a built in amp? seems like they could have made one without the amp for people what already had amps and made it cheaper for everyone.


Why doesn't Apple make an iPod/iPhone/iPad without built-in memory and a memory card slot instead?


----------



## subwoofery

tdrcrew said:


> You are missing the point, but thanks anyway
> 
> Edit: Actually, after rereading your reply a few times it actually makes sense... I'm just wondering (if that is the problem) how they got in phase again...


It's not that they got in phase again, they were probably in phase with each other (side speakers). However when you add the subwoofer, phase can occur between your subwoofer and your sides ; leaving a big hole (dip) in the midbass ranging from maybe 80Hz to 200Hz from your side speakers. 

Kelvin


----------



## yong_ly07

kaigoss69 said:


> Why doesn't Apple make an iPod/iPhone/iPad without built-in memory and a memory card slot instead?


That is apples smart way of advertisement, each different size hardrive have different values.


----------



## tdrcrew

On my never ending quest for satisfaction I must say for the first time:

WOW!

In some songs the detail is incredible (as in, you can hear the guitar snare hit the guitar, amazing!). It really depends on the source. I have original CD's that do not sound as good as some 320kbps MP3's.

I'm still figuring out why that is. Could it be that the processing algorithm works very well on some music but not on other? Especially piano's don't sound good, on some tones it is not great for the ears. Guitars on the other hand seem incredible. 

Could it be something in tonal range?


----------



## quality_sound

tdrcrew said:


> On my never ending quest for satisfaction I must say for the first time:
> 
> WOW!
> 
> In some songs the detail is incredible (as in, you can hear the guitar snare hit the guitar, amazing!). It really depends on the source. I have original CD's that do not sound as good as some 320kbps MP3's.
> 
> *I'm still figuring out why that is.* Could it be that the processing algorithm works very well on some music but not on other? Especially piano's don't sound good, on some tones it is not great for the ears. Guitars on the other hand seem incredible.
> 
> Could it be something in tonal range?


Just because it's on a CD doesn't mean it was recorded wirth a crap. Most fo the stuff on CD nowadays is garbage. If you have a garbage CD I can easily see why some .mp3s would sound better.


----------



## tdrcrew

quality_sound said:


> Just because it's on a CD doesn't mean it was recorded wirth a crap. Most fo the stuff on CD nowadays is garbage. If you have a garbage CD I can easily see why some .mp3s would sound better.


I have noticed  A friend told me about the Loudness War and things are starting to make sense. I'm going to try Replay Gain on my collection to see if it helps.

Just wanted to you all know that the MS-8 can really shine, amazing!


----------



## CraigE

tdrcrew said:


> Well, after many troubleshooting and contact with JBL the MS-8 is going out and a I believe a Bit Ten is going in (my installer told me an updated Bit One but I could only find the Bit Ten. They ordered one and it should take 2 weeks orso to get here).
> 
> I'm sure it's a great product but it just doesn't work for me


One week Later;



tdrcrew said:


> Just wanted to you all know that the MS-8 can really shine, amazing!


See what can happen with a little patience. :surprised:


______________


----------



## 14642

IF you have Logic7 enabled, the rear speakers will play mainly ambient sounds that are in the recording. Some really dry studio mixes won't make much in the rear speakers, but a live recording will. 

There are a few programs that will let you downmix DVDs to 2-channels as MP3s. Doa google search and try that.


----------



## tdrcrew

CraigE said:


> One week Later;
> 
> 
> 
> See what can happen with a little patience. :surprised:
> 
> 
> ______________


Patience is a virtue!  But I just don't understand why this happened overnight. Anyways, I'm not complaining


----------



## draft6969

Hey Andy in my jeep i have infinity kappa 3.5" coaxals in the dash and 6x9 kappa coaxals in the front door. my question is when i run the settup on the ms-8 should i set it up as full range for the dash, and then not hook up the tweeter on the 6x9's and use them as mid bass? So it would be like a 2 way settup? or just run them both as full range, like front and side?


----------



## tdrcrew

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> IF you have Logic7 enabled, the rear speakers will play mainly ambient sounds that are in the recording. Some really dry studio mixes won't make much in the rear speakers, but a live recording will.
> 
> There are a few programs that will let you downmix DVDs to 2-channels as MP3s. Doa google search and try that.


I have L7 off, as I don't have rear speakers (or center) only sides... I will try Replay Gain to see if it helps with some songs that sound very very harsh (as if my ears are going to bleed). It really depends on the song. It can shine at one moment only to crash the next.

But like I said, when it shines, it shines bright!

I am going to try the tweeter trick again this weekend only this time correctly, using tape and cardboard on them.


----------



## Dirtboy

Just installed my MS8 and I'm having "No DSP Response" errors and the unit restarts every 3-4 minutes. Anyone have this problem?


----------



## asat11

Dirtboy said:


> Just installed my MS8 and I'm having "No DSP Response" errors and the unit restarts every 3-4 minutes. Anyone have this problem?


Have you tried doing a factory reset? I think I read that fix in here....


----------



## tdrcrew

tdrcrew said:


> I have L7 off, as I don't have rear speakers (or center) only sides... I will try Replay Gain to see if it helps with some songs that sound very very harsh (as if my ears are going to bleed). It really depends on the song. It can shine at one moment only to crash the next.
> 
> But like I said, when it shines, it shines bright!
> 
> I am going to try the tweeter trick again this weekend only this time correctly, using tape and cardboard on them.


I did a factory reset (just to make sure all settings were gone) and taped the front tweeters on the FIRST sweep of every seating position (I only did Driver and Passenger). Haven't had much chance to listen very well due to neighbours and girlfriend so I will test it when going to work when I'm alone. 

As far as I could tell, the harsh tones are less. But, I will have to do some good listening to make sure. Ofcourse, I will let you guys know.

I'm still going to do some testing with my installer coming friday with my previous Kenwood HU on the MS-8 (instead of the factory HU) and swap the MS-8 for a Bit Ten (with factory HU and Kenwood HU). Will post the results of these tests too!

Have a great weekend!


----------



## asat11

You do have the Rem Out wires going to the amps right? "Remote in" wire hooked up? (not sure if it gets pwr from the Rem in or not - just asking) Power on either one?


----------



## Dirtboy

I think I figured out my problem. The remote out on my OEM BMW deck wasn't putting out enough voltage; 11.5v. To test it, i hooked the MS8's remote-in to 12.6v and I never had the restarts. So all is good now. I just have to fine tune the system in a quite area (too much street noise where I am).


----------



## subiemax

asat11 said:


> You do have the Rem Out wires going to the amps right? "Remote in" wire hooked up? (not sure if it gets pwr from the Rem in or not - just asking) Power on either one?


I figured it out. Just my stupid mistake. When I bolted the seat back in, it pinched the turn on lead. That's what I get for staying up till 4AM and rushing. That was the last thing I hooked up and did not zsecure it right and it moved. Fixed now and sounding great.


----------



## 14642

Dirtboy said:


> I think I figured out my problem. The remote out on my OEM BMW deck wasn't putting out enough voltage; 11.5v. To test it, i hooked the MS8's remote-in to 12.6v and I never had the restarts. So all is good now. I just have to fine tune the system in a quite area (too much street noise where I am).


The calibration sweeps are almost impervious to external noise, but be sure to run calibration at a pretty low level.

For those of you who are sick of waiting for me to tell you how loud the sweeps should be, we finally have another unit in a car in the office and we'll run a bunch of tests in a couple of weeks when i return from traveling. Also investigating the occasional "lack of midbass" claim.


----------



## mdavis007

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The calibration sweeps are almost impervious to external noise, but be sure to run calibration at a pretty low level.
> 
> For those of you who are sick of waiting for me to tell you how loud the sweeps should be, we finally have another unit in a car in the office and we'll run a bunch of tests in a couple of weeks when i return from traveling. Also investigating the occasional "lack of midbass" claim.


I had to calibrate a few times to "fix" the lack of midbass. I finally settled with the below setup and i think it sounds amazing.

I set the gains on my amps at about 10 o'clock (old ppi art no gain setting numbers), 7 o'clock being all the way down. I then started my calibration, i set the volume at -35 ran sweeps for all 4 seats. Once done I turned the gain on the amps to 12 o'clock. Set and am leaving the volume on my HU to the level that gave me an "OK" signal at the beginning of calibration. I am using the MS-8 to adjust my volume. Everything blends beautifully and the midbass is sounding great.

x-over settings:
subsonic 25hz 12db
Sub/Front 75hz 24db
Front Lo/Hi 4000hz 24db

Equipment:
Alpine IDA-x305s
Focal 165VB (active)
JL 10w1v2 (Stealthbox)
MS-8 (obviously)
PPI a300 (sub)
PPI a600.2 (front mid)
Tweeters run from MS-8 amp


----------



## Technic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Also investigating the occasional "lack of midbass" claim.


At least in the E90 3-Series, the "occasional" lack of midbass is all the time in the three MS-8 installs that I have done so far. 

I get it back after tweaking the 31-band EQ, the mid adjustment, the sub adjustment and the external amp gain, but it should not be like that. The MS-8 acoustic calibration simply attenuates the midbass in this car completely.

Perhaps it has to do with the woofers location being underseat and having a trunk sub in all three installs.


----------



## Jprice2708

I know other people have said it but just wanted to say that I would love to see a version come out with 10 channels so we can run 3 way active front, sub, rears, and maybe a centre too.

Even better from my position would be a plug-in module to add 2 channels to the existing MS8.

Just my $0.02...


----------



## 14642

Technic said:


> At least in the E90 3-Series, the "occasional" lack of midbass is all the time in the three MS-8 installs that I have done so far.
> 
> I get it back after tweaking the 31-band EQ, the mid adjustment, the sub adjustment and the external amp gain, but it should not be like that. The MS-8 acoustic calibration simply attenuates the midbass in this car completely.
> 
> Perhaps it has to do with the woofers location being underseat and having a trunk sub in all three installs.


This is why I'm going to get to the bottom of this. When I tune MS-8 cars, including BMW 3-series, they sound great. No lack of midbass, center is precisely in the center of the dash and the bass is on the hood. A little boost of the subwoofer control is usually nice, but I never have to boost the midbass in the 31-band.


----------



## south east customz

I had same issue, inverted phase on the midbass (can't remember which one) and it came alive


----------



## 14642

Yes, if one of the midbass drivers in the door is connected backwards that'll kill the midbass every time. Don't use a polarity checker to determine if the speaker is connected properly. Don't sit in the seat and use music and your ears to determine if the speakers are connected correctly. Use your eyes and a wiring diagram.


----------



## mitchyz250f

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The calibration sweeps are almost impervious to external noise, but be sure to run calibration at a pretty low level.
> 
> For those of you who are sick of waiting for me to tell you how loud the sweeps should be, we finally have another unit in a car in the office and we'll run a bunch of tests in a couple of weeks when i return from traveling. Also investigating the occasional "lack of midbass" claim.


Andy, can you post the entire calibration procedure. Maybe two versions, one simple by ear and a more comprehensive version for people who really want to optimize and have the equipment.


----------



## Dirtboy

Dirtboy said:


> I think I figured out my problem. The remote out on my OEM BMW deck wasn't putting out enough voltage; 11.5v. To test it, i hooked the MS8's remote-in to 12.6v and I never had the restarts. So all is good now. I just have to fine tune the system in a quite area (too much street noise where I am).


Well I thought I had it fixed, but I'm still having "No DSP Response" errors and the unit restarts every couple of minutes...

Many thanks to Andy for helping me out with this. I hope I can get it resolved soon because in the very short time it was working, it sounded pretty good.


----------



## CraigE

I've set all amp gains to 2 volts with an O-scope, but the sub amp gain has to be set to minimum, or the sub sweeps are over 100 dB, and surely clipping the mics.

I used a measurement mic between the driver and passenger seats to measure MAX SPL LEVEL (unweighted) at minus 27, here are my results;

1 - Diagnostic (pink noise)

62-63 dB--- FL,FR,CTR,SL,SR
69 dB ------- Sub

____________________________________________

2 - Sweeps

1st set ----- 66.3 dB
2nd set -----85.4 dB
3rd set ------85.2 dB
4th set ------85.3 dB

______________________________________________

I think it's possible that the sub sweeps are exciting a panel slightly, but I haven't been able to locate it with a signal generator, even at higher volumes. 



-----------------------------


----------



## subwoofery

Jprice2708 said:


> I know other people have said it but just wanted to say that I would love to see a version come out with 10 channels so we can run 3 way active front, sub, rears, and maybe a centre too.
> 
> Even better from my position would be a plug-in module to add 2 channels to the existing MS8.
> 
> Just my $0.02...


Just buy a second MS-8 and connect the 2 : Front 3 way and center on the first, rears and sub on the second. 

Kelvin


----------



## quality_sound

subwoofery said:


> Just buy a second MS-8 and connect the 2 : Front 3 way and center on the first, rears and sub on the second.
> 
> Kelvin


How would you tune them without the other pairs of speakers? They won't be linked so one MS-8 won't know that another is handling the other speakers. I see it not working correctly, but I might be wrong.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Adam posted a reply to a question like this a while back. Can't remember exactly what he said but I think something like that is possible. it was one of his later post before he stopped posting, iirc.


----------



## t3sn4f2

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1104606-post21.html

Here it is.


----------



## Jprice2708

Sounds like a pain in the a$$ to me - I'll wait in case JBL makes a version with more outputs or a way to properly link 2 units.


----------



## tdrcrew

tdrcrew said:


> I did a factory reset (just to make sure all settings were gone) and taped the front tweeters on the FIRST sweep of every seating position (I only did Driver and Passenger). Haven't had much chance to listen very well due to neighbours and girlfriend so I will test it when going to work when I'm alone.
> 
> As far as I could tell, the harsh tones are less. But, I will have to do some good listening to make sure. Ofcourse, I will let you guys know.
> 
> I'm still going to do some testing with my installer coming friday with my previous Kenwood HU on the MS-8 (instead of the factory HU) and swap the MS-8 for a Bit Ten (with factory HU and Kenwood HU). Will post the results of these tests too!
> 
> Have a great weekend!


When driving to work I noticed that the tweeter trick did help a bit. There is less harshness but overall it still doesn't sound natural. The sound is still washed out and there is alot of "echo" (No, the mic is disconnected). It sounds as if I have selected "Big Room" or "Dance Hall" on the HU (no such options exist on the HU just to be clear).

Anyone else noticed this before?


----------



## BuickGN

Jprice2708 said:


> I know other people have said it but just wanted to say that I would love to see a version come out with 10 channels so we can run 3 way active front, sub, rears, and maybe a centre too.
> 
> Even better from my position would be a plug-in module to add 2 channels to the existing MS8.
> 
> Just my $0.02...


That would be nice. I have the same problem, all channels used up and I want to add the rears. I'm going to use the passives that came with my Dyns so the mids and tweeters use one channel. Supposedly this works really well but it would be nice to have adjustability of the crossover point.


----------



## mitchyz250f

Don't we need 11 channels so that we can run the center active if desired?


----------



## brianhj

mitchyz250f said:


> Don't we need 11 channels so that we can run the center active if desired?


8 for front and rear
1 for sub
1 for center
=10


----------



## thehatedguy

I have a 3 way center. It is active between the midbass and midranges. I have passives between all of the midranges and tweeters.

I am using a y adapter out of one channel to split the output to two amps. I am using the crossovers in the amps to make my bandpass crossover between the midranges and midbasses. The MS-8 does the bottom of the midbass and the passives do the top of the midranges. Since they are all located really closely together, I didn't figure TA between all of the drivers would matter.

That's how I do my center sort of active.


----------



## mitchyz250f

brianhj said:


> 8 for front and rear
> 1 for sub
> 1 for center
> =10


8 for front and rear
1 for sub
2 for center (mb & tweet) 
=11
Currently I am running a three way front. The MS-8 crosses the MB to the mids. Then I use an Audio Control 2SX to cross the mids and tweets. So I am running everything active (11 speakers) except the center.

For the center, I tested the speakers with a Dayton WT-3. I designed a 2nd order crossover for both the mid and tweet and it works fine. But testing different crossovers points passively is just too much work for me.


----------



## brianhj

mitchyz250f said:


> 8 for front and rear
> 1 for sub
> 2 for center (mb & tweet)
> =11
> Currently I am running a three way front. The MS-8 crosses the MB to the mids. Then I use an Audio Control 2SX to cross the mids and tweets. So I am running everything active (11 speakers) except the center.
> 
> For the center, I tested the speakers with a Dayton WT-3. I designed a 2nd order crossover for both the mid and tweet and it works fine. But testing different crossovers points passively is just too much work for me.


Ahhh.. then yeah, active center.


----------



## BuickGN

Why would you run two channels to your center instead of running a coaxial or a passive between the center MB and tweeter?


----------



## brianhj

BuickGN said:


> Why would you run two channels to your center instead of running a coaxial or a passive between the center MB and tweeter?


Same reason you'd run two channels to mid/tweeter in the door instead of just going passive?


----------



## t3sn4f2

brianhj said:


> Same reason you'd run two channels to mid/tweeter in the door instead of just going passive?


Because you need TA? Nope
Because you need independent EQ due to two different source spaces? Nope

Unless you are mounting the mid low and the tweeter on the dash of course.


----------



## brianhj

t3sn4f2 said:


> Because you need TA? Nope
> Because you need independent EQ due to two different source spaces? Nope
> 
> Unless you are mounting the mid low and the tweeter on the dash of course.



because you want more options as far as crossover points/slopes? Yep
because you want independently adjustable channels of audio to the tweeter and the mid? Yep


you don't NEED any of what you said, whether it's for mids/tweeters in the kicks or whatever. but it's nice to have


----------



## Wheres The Butta

I plan on running a two-way active center using one channel of the MS-8, then a PPI FRX-322 to split the signal. --let you know how it goes


----------



## MattyKHZ

Hi All,

This month was going to be the month I get my Mini Cooper S install done here in the UK.

The installer in the UK is highly regarded but usually fits whichever speakers he finds works best as a matched system.

My problem is I have some old install equipment I wanted to use and a JBL MS8.

My plans were to use my old 2 x Denon DCA760BL amps giving 8 channels of 120W. Mini HU was to feed the JBL MS8 into the amps.

Speakers I have an old set of QM218.61 MB Quarts which I got the QSC 4" driver to add to it to make 3 way active. I also have a Morel Supremo 6 set up using the CDM54 midrange if better and Tempo 6x9 for rear fill.

Here is the problem:

My installer would prefer if I used all his equipment obviosly as he spends time matching stuff. He is used to the Bit One and does not think much of the 1 MS8 DIY installed unit he has heard. He also feels the 6x9 in the standard mini rear is a bad idea.

So my dilemma is this. Do I go with what this installer suggests and probably end up with a 3 way active set up in the front, no rears and then I feel there would be no need for a MS8 which I might as well sell to fund the Bit One which looks like would be best in that set up?

Or do I try and find someone who can make the MS8 work and would my equipment be enough for this or would I really need a centre which I do not know where to put in the mini?

Originally I was thinking 3 way active and some small subs or 6x9 subs in the rear 6x9 area. Then the MS8 came along and I thought it sounded like a good thing to try.

I fear my installer will not give the MS8 a chance by discounting the rears sraight away.

Has anyone felt the MS8 is better than the Bit One and probably because they are using the Logic 7 features or is the Bit One good in the hands of someone used to using it and could be better than the MS8?

Any advice would be welcome. Many thanks.

Matt.


----------



## tdrcrew

MattyKHZ said:


> Hi All,
> 
> This month was going to be the month I get my Mini Cooper S install done here in the UK.
> 
> The installer in the UK is highly regarded but usually fits whichever speakers he finds works best as a matched system.
> 
> My problem is I have some old install equipment I wanted to use and a JBL MS8.
> 
> My plans were to use my old 2 x Denon DCA760BL amps giving 8 channels of 120W. Mini HU was to feed the JBL MS8 into the amps.
> 
> Speakers I have an old set of QM218.61 MB Quarts which I got the QSC 4" driver to add to it to make 3 way active. I also have a Morel Supremo 6 set up using the CDM54 midrange if better and Tempo 6x9 for rear fill.
> 
> Here is the problem:
> 
> My installer would prefer if I used all his equipment obviosly as he spends time matching stuff. He is used to the Bit One and does not think much of the 1 MS8 DIY installed unit he has heard. He also feels the 6x9 in the standard mini rear is a bad idea.
> 
> So my dilemma is this. Do I go with what this installer suggests and probably end up with a 3 way active set up in the front, no rears and then I feel there would be no need for a MS8 which I might as well sell to fund the Bit One which looks like would be best in that set up?
> 
> Or do I try and find someone who can make the MS8 work and would my equipment be enough for this or would I really need a centre which I do not know where to put in the mini?
> 
> Originally I was thinking 3 way active and some small subs or 6x9 subs in the rear 6x9 area. Then the MS8 came along and I thought it sounded like a good thing to try.
> 
> I fear my installer will not give the MS8 a chance by discounting the rears sraight away.
> 
> Has anyone felt the MS8 is better than the Bit One and probably because they are using the Logic 7 features or is the Bit One good in the hands of someone used to using it and could be better than the MS8?
> 
> Any advice would be welcome. Many thanks.
> 
> Matt.


Hey Matt, 

For what it is worth here is my 2ct as a n00b  I think you can't go wrong with either the MS-8 or BitOne. I guess the best would be to listen to both with your equipment in your car and decide which one you like best. Problem is that this might not be possible...

At this point I really don't like the MS-8. Nobody can tell me what the problem is not even my installer. They even contacted JBL about it without success. I've tried all the suggestions I got from the people on the forum, also without succes. My installer has done multiple installations in BMW's which sounded (according to them, ofcourse) great. I haven't heard the MS-8 in a good installation so I really can't say if I just don't like the sound or it is some problem in my factory HU, amps, cabling etc.

But, I have heard the BitOne in one installation and it sounded awesome. But, I have to admit they had an Audison Thesis amp, Hertz Mille speakers etc. That is why I wanted a BitOne at first but my installer insisted that the MS-8 would be better. The jury still isn't in because I can't compare yet.

I might switchover to the BitTen this friday due to all the problems I have had. There are a lot of people over here that have had great succes and really like it. To me, the MS-8 is just a black box which does it's thing and that is just all good until something doesn't turn out to be right (as is in my case). I like the BitOne better in that aspect, as far as I can tell from the manual.

What I'm trying to say is, what your installer picks and what YOU like might be 2 different things. Also really consider your budget and stick with it. I have been suckered in too and look at me now  Having spent so much more than I wanted and still the sound sucks ass...

Perhaps you can make some deal that if you don't like it he can swap it for the MS-8 or something like that. That is what I have done. My installer has been very helpful in that aspect and that is why we are going to try some things coming friday: change the factory HU to my previous Kenwood HU, RCA instead of speaker level cable, Bit Ten instead of MS-8.

I hope this helps!

My equipment

- Factory HU
- Polk DB6501 (front and side)
- Audison VRX4.300 (front and side)
- Kenwood XXV-03A (sub)
- Orion H2


----------



## MattyKHZ

Thanks for the reply.

I have had one reply from a fellow mini owner as follows:

"Keep the ms8 and run the doors and tweeters active without any crossovers and use your amps to power the doors and subs .do not run rear speakers except for subs.

audison bitone sounds like ****e vs the ms8."

I hear good things about the Bit One. I do not think it as clear cut as the quote above as the MS8 seems to be a tool that is designed to be easier for most and the Bit One is something it seem syou need to have a bit of experience with to get the best out of.

I have someone local who has 2 MS8 car installs with one front active and sub and another using rear fill etc so that seems to be on the agenda.

At the end of the day thought if I am taking my car to an installer it seems I will only get what the installer thinks rather than what is best. If they have no knowledge of the MS8 it seems I will just get an install based on what their prior knowledge is. Seems rear fill etc is frowned on by most yet with a MS8 rather than a Bit One it may be key?


----------



## quietfly

MattyKHZ said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> At the end of the day thought if I am taking my car to an installer it seems I will only get what the installer thinks rather than what is best. If they have no knowledge of the MS8 it seems I will just get an install based on what their prior knowledge is. Seems rear fill etc is frowned on by most yet with a MS8 rather than a Bit One it may be key?


the MS-8 is a tool just like any other. If your installer is not confident with it, i'd be hard pressed to recommend you get one and use that installer.


----------



## subwoofery

MattyKHZ said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I have had one reply from a fellow mini owner as follows:
> 
> "Keep the ms8 and run the doors and tweeters active without any crossovers and use your amps to power the doors and subs .do not run rear speakers except for subs.
> 
> audison bitone sounds like ****e vs the ms8."
> 
> I hear good things about the Bit One. _*I do not think it as clear cut as the quote above as the MS8 seems to be a tool that is designed to be easier for most and the Bit One is something it seem syou need to have a bit of experience with to get the best out of*_.
> 
> I have someone local who has 2 MS8 car installs with one front active and sub and another using rear fill etc so that seems to be on the agenda.
> 
> At the end of the day thought if I am taking my car to an installer it seems I will only get what the installer thinks rather than what is best. If they have no knowledge of the MS8 it seems I will just get an install based on what their prior knowledge is. Seems rear fill etc is frowned on by most yet with a MS8 rather than a Bit One it may be key?


Exactly that... If you've never messed with active, I suggest you play and learn to listen with your MS-8. I've never said you can't learn fast coz there really is no easy way. You have to listen to many well tuned system in order to know what to aim for. You have to train your ear in order to know what to listen for and what you need to tune for. I've heard a few people's system that sounded better without the BitOne (seriously) - it's so easy to make a mess with an active processor. 
With the MS-8, change the Xover point, calibrate and listen - then change the Xover point, calibrate and listen. 
During that time, document yourself on the forum. I've learned so much in 3 years yet still know nothing compared to a few here. 

Really... Keep the MS-8, it's a great tool. When you feel confident enough, then try the BitOne or the other big boner a few years from now. 

Kelvin


----------



## tdrcrew

MattyKHZ said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I have had one reply from a fellow mini owner as follows:
> 
> "Keep the ms8 and run the doors and tweeters active without any crossovers and use your amps to power the doors and subs .do not run rear speakers except for subs.
> 
> audison bitone sounds like ****e vs the ms8."
> 
> I hear good things about the Bit One. I do not think it as clear cut as the quote above as the MS8 seems to be a tool that is designed to be easier for most and the Bit One is something it seem syou need to have a bit of experience with to get the best out of.
> 
> I have someone local who has 2 MS8 car installs with one front active and sub and another using rear fill etc so that seems to be on the agenda.
> 
> At the end of the day thought if I am taking my car to an installer it seems I will only get what the installer thinks rather than what is best. If they have no knowledge of the MS8 it seems I will just get an install based on what their prior knowledge is. Seems rear fill etc is frowned on by most yet with a MS8 rather than a Bit One it may be key?


You really have some good points there. I was relying on my installer without knowing too much about it. Reading this forum helped me a lot and I wouldn't have done the same if I knew then what I know now. Instead of a processor I would perhaps have just used my HU (or a Pioneer DEX99PRS) and added another amp for the sides, with both front and side active (or only front with more power).

Problem is there are so many opinions and in the end only your own counts  Some people love the MS-8 and hate the BitOne and others love the BitOne and don't like the MS-8 for whatever reasons. As I said I'm having problems with my MS-8 but that might be related to numerous other things or just my personal taste. It might be that I also don't like the BitOne and just leave the processing out altogether and just connect the HU directly to my amps (as I had in my previous car which sounded great).

It sounds as if you already know what you want so that really helps. It might be that it doesn't work out the way you planned but there is no other way around I guess  I have read lots of posts here of people that buy and sell stuff all the time just to check it out. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. If it doesn't work they sell it again.

Good luck!


----------



## hemi4me?

I posted an ad but I am hoping someone who can help is here and has an easy fix for me or something really dumb I am doing wrong. 

Long story short, went to a Car Audio pro locally (watched the install). It worked for about 10 minutes (didn't sound great because I quickly entered through the set up) then nothing. 

I have Factory Deck, factory speakers, MS8, full range going to channel one and 2 (Fact amp to MS8) and sub signal (under seats to ms8). FOR Sure I have power on the unit, screen working, power to the deck, input signal to the MS8 from the Factory amp was confirmed (test speaker) harness is confirmed working (output from the ms8 to factory speakers popped each).

How is it possible to work, then just not? 

At first almost every time I try the set up I see SIGNAL NONE, then I increase the vol on the head unit and get thre OK's.

It allows me to set up all channels and xover settings, then when it gets to the part where there should be the SHHHHHHH noise out of each speaker to confirm I get nothing. Then I can go into the positioning says to put on headphones I get no dings (although I got them earlier). 

UGHGHGHGHGHGH. HELP!


----------



## asat11

Wow! This thread is freaking me out.... I have one of these coming today and I keep reding about all these issues - when I ordered it I was reading the first 3000 or so posts.....  I sure hope there are thousands of satisfied customers that aren't posting here....  With that in mind do you guys think there would be any value added if I document my install and setup as a reletive noob and just "average consumer that installs my own stereo stuff" on a seperate install thread?


----------



## brianhj

asat11 said:


> Wow! This thread is freaking me out.... I have one of these coming today and I keep reding about all these issues - when I ordered it I was reading the first 3000 or so posts.....  I sure hope there are thousands of satisfied customers that aren't posting here....  With that in mind do you guys think there would be any value added if I document my install and setup as a reletive noob and just "average consumer that installs my own stereo stuff" on a seperate install thread?


Just like with anything else, you hear more from the people with problems than the people without.


----------



## hemi4me?

I am on hold with JBL got the first rep she wanted to email me a new CD saying the CD i got was probably the issue. I am thinking not, because JBL emailed me a copy yesterday and the CD plays in other CD players and PC.

Sending me to a "supervisor" supposedly... So far they have answered quickly and seemed to be helpful. Could offer any possible solutions besides the CD thing.


----------



## hemi4me?

Well at least I talked to a guy in the US and he was nice. 

He said to try fronts as one way, didnt work... 

Said I should test the input and output which I have. 

Offered no other solution guess its toast! YEAH!

NOW this is great, guy says call this guy in Scottsdale "Audio Wizard" I call the guy tell him my story. He says we dont do warranty repair, I said I dont want warranty repair I was hoping you could look at it and fix it. He said we dont do warranty repair I have been doing this for 12 years. I said thats fine maybe just look at it he says you must have gotten someone that didnt want to do their job... Call them back we are 6 weeks out. He was probably the biggest ******* I have ever spoken with.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

thehatedguy said:


> Yeah, going into my IS300.
> 
> Well being a high efficiency type guy, I know there are only a few dome tweeters that I can live with...and buy the time I buy one for the center, I've pretty much spent the amount the BMS 5" coax would cost. The only thing is that the BMS is a 16 ohm driver. The BMS 5 is about $215 from Assistance Audio and the ceramic 8s are a little cheaper. Would still have to make crossovers for them.
> 
> Beyma has a 5 and 6" coax with a true horn and compression driver on them...but they are EXPENSIVE, and I haven't had much luck finding a deal on them.


Here's a picture of the Danely SM-60F:









If you shortened the horn, you could squeeze it into a car. It uses the BMS 5CN140. You could even use the Danley crossover probably. (I have some photos of it somewhere; should be able to decipher the values and topology off of the photos.

In a nutshell, you would have a full-on prosound horn built right into your car. You can figure out the diameter of the holes from the photos, and we have nearly all the info to copy the crossover too.

That could be seriously world-class.

I am thinking about doing it too:

Audio Psychosis • View topic - Gary Biggs Gets It.


----------



## hemi4me?

Well I can say one thing the customer service at JBL was really good. 

I Called the center got the normal rep in India... TR me to a "supervisor" I assume a tech rep in US. He could not figure the issue and since the ins and outs are working must be an issue with the MS8. I then get an unexpected call 4 hours later from a guy at JBL listens to my issues again and again since all ins and outs are confirmed to be working issued me a RA. Way it sounds I will have a new one shortly. 

ONLY worry is I hook this thing up and again no sound... LOL THEN I am back to where I am now!!!


----------



## asat11

Well I got mine yesterday and did a temporary hookup today to just see if it was going to be worth it and all I can say is...... 

WOW - Freaking WOW - I totally have to emulate Bikinpunks comments..... I still have some tweaking to do to get it dialed in but WOW - before the MS-8 my stage was down near my knees, and the sound was muddy, really loose mid bass.... and now it is way up on my dash, on some CD's out on my hood - I can hear the stage setup on the Hell Freezes Over CD - drums are centered, Joe Walsh is right stage, Henley is Center left, etc, etc, I put Thriller in and I could hear those footsteps walk right across my dash..... Stings Brand New Day sounds soooo freakin gooooooodddd...... Dire Straights - I can hear the pick attack on Knoppfler's guitar like never before, and I'm just gettin started..... I did boost the EQ in the 200 - 315 range and my mid bass is tight and punchy.... Now granted, I am not a tuner by any means and I don't even have an EQ or any of those other instruments that I keep reading about..... but this is the BEST MY CAR HAS EVER SOUNDED..... Thanks Andy and JBL - What an awesome product!! I bought a lot of great sound equipment 10 years ago and you have finally made it sound the way I hoped it always would!!!! The biggest challenge now is going to be to quit listening to it long enough to get the damn thing permanently installed!!!


----------



## narcotico

Hello.

I would like if ms-8 it could make the next install (3 active way + sub + rear fill):

Tweeters and mids in front powered by ms-8 without passive crossover (all channels in active).

Woofers in front powered by external amp.
Sub powered by external amp.

Rear speakers powered by ms-8.

The doubts that I'm worry are the next ones:

- Is the ms-8 able to make all bandpass filters in all channels (powered by ms-8 and powered by external amp).

- What about the quality and power in the ms-8? 

The tweeters and mids that I'm thinking power by ms-8 are:
Tweeters
Mids

Thanks a lot.


----------



## subwoofery

narcotico said:


> Hello.
> 
> I would like if ms-8 it could make the next install (3 active way + sub + rear fill):
> 
> Tweeters and mids in front powered by ms-8 without passive crossover (all channels in active).
> 
> Woofers in front powered by external amp.
> Sub powered by external amp.
> 
> Rear speakers powered by ms-8.
> 
> The doubts that I'm worry are the next ones:
> 
> - Is the ms-8 able to make all bandpass filters in all channels (powered by ms-8 and powered by external amp). Pretty much yes
> 
> - What about the quality and power in the ms-8? 4 ohm or 2 ohm - power quality is good
> 
> The tweeters and mids that I'm thinking power by ms-8 are:
> Tweeters
> Mids
> 
> Thanks a lot.


Not gonna happen. Your system seems to need 9 channels - the MS-8 has, well, 8 channels. 3 way front = 6 // rears = 2 // sub = 1 
You need a passive Xover between your mid and tweet in order to set your MS-8 to work with your system. 

Kelvin


----------



## narcotico

Hello again.

If I powered rear speakers with the hu (98 % times they are turn off), I understand that I could use the ms-8 for that config, truth? (I would like to run all in active and don't use the passive filters).

Do you think that ms-8 amp power fine that drivers (they have high sensitivity and low power)?

To finish, my hu doesn't have cd (Head Unit), for auto-tune I'll rip the cd to wav and I play from my Ipod connected to the HU, Is this the best manner?
The ms8 has a few memorys for personal eq, but for the all config it only let one (for example, auto-tune with 2 different inputs), truth?


Thanks a lot.


----------



## subwoofery

narcotico said:


> Hello again.
> 
> If I powered rear speakers with the hu (98 % times they are turn off), I understand that I could use the ms-8 for that config, truth? (I would like to run all in active and don't use the passive filters).
> It's not that you "could" use the MS-8 for that config, it's more like you "have" to use the MS-8. If you want to use the HU for rears, you may as well not use any rear speaker. Rears without any T/A and level OR special processor will only mess with your soundstage.
> Just use a passive Xover for your mid and tweet. Tweets don't need T/A to center your soundstage, only levels
> 
> Do you think that ms-8 amp power fine that drivers (they have high sensitivity and low power)? Shouldn't be a problem...
> 
> To finish, my hu doesn't have cd (Head Unit), for auto-tune I'll rip the cd to wav and I play from my Ipod connected to the HU, Is this the best manner?
> The ms8 has a few memorys for personal eq, but for the all config it only let one (for example, auto-tune with 2 different inputs), truth?
> Using your Ipod for calibration shouldn't be a problem
> 
> 
> Thanks a lot.


Kelvin


----------



## narcotico

Ok. Thanks a lot.


----------



## 14642

subwoofery said:


> Kelvin


Guys, if you're using an aftermarket head unit of any kind with RCA outputs, then you don't even need to worry about input calibration because you already have a stereo 2-channel output. Just choose "skip input setup" at during input setup. 

IF you have an OE system with crossovers for the speakers onboard, then signal summing and un-EQ is important. Signal summing is obvious, but the UN EQ is mostly to make Logic7 work properly. A mono signal (usually bass and especially in OE systems) that super loud (the bass signal is often 9-12dB louder than the rest) will steer the signal to the center when that big bass note happens). The Un-EQ is designed to eliminate this minor problem.

Un-EQ doesn't even have to be perfectly flat for the system to work--it just needs to pu tthe various frequency bands in phase and within about 6dB (it does better than that).


----------



## 14642

There's another question that I'm getting pretty often and that's about connecting more channels than MS-8 needs.

If you have an aftermarket radio that provides two fullr range channels out, that's all you need. Can you hook up more? Yes, but there's no benefit real benefit and it just makes the DSP work harder. Consider this:

If you hook up two full range channels and the subwoofer output, then you'll have the ability to control the level of the bass from the head unit. Maybe this is convenient. However, because the subwoofer signal includes a low pass filter, it will be 180-degrees out of phase with the front signal at some point in the transition band. When you run input setup, MS-8 includes an all pass filter that will put them back in phase--problem fixed...until you adjust the level of the bass. Then, the transition band changes and the phase filter is no longer valid. Is this a big problem? No, but why create even a small one? MS-8 has plenty of work to do even when things are pretty straightforward. MS-8's subwoofer control sounds much better than doing it this way, anyway.

In an OE system, which is what the UN-EQ was designed to fix, the subwoofer level is never adjusted in this way. All of the frequency conrols are EQ rather than levels for separate crossover bands. 

If you have an OE system with 6" speakers or larger in the doors, don't even bother hooking up the output of the subwoofer amp to MS-8. MS-8 has enough EQ to put the bass back in if the crossovers in the front are anywhere close to 100Hz. IN some cars, the fronts have NO high pass filter and the sub is just there for additional bottom end. This is really bad system design and creates all sorts of phase errors (one of the reasons that none of us like our OE systems very much). 

This is a little like making a sandwich for someone who tells you, "Please...just two pieces of bread, some mustard and one slice of ham". So instead, just to make sure you get everything, you put on 10 slices of ham, three pieces of cheese, a squirt of ketchup, a big dollop of mayonnaise, some lettuce, an onion and a tomato on top and say, "I just wanted to make sure we didn't leave anything out, take off what you don't want." Can all of that other stuff be removed? Yeah, for the most part...sort of.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy, should we use muting plugs on the RCA inputs that are not being used?


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> Andy, should we use muting plugs on the RCA inputs that are not being used?


 
Not necessary.


----------



## tdrcrew

tdrcrew said:


> I did a factory reset (just to make sure all settings were gone) and taped the front tweeters on the FIRST sweep of every seating position (I only did Driver and Passenger). Haven't had much chance to listen very well due to neighbours and girlfriend so I will test it when going to work when I'm alone.
> 
> As far as I could tell, the harsh tones are less. But, I will have to do some good listening to make sure. Ofcourse, I will let you guys know.
> 
> I'm still going to do some testing with my installer coming friday with my previous Kenwood HU on the MS-8 (instead of the factory HU) and swap the MS-8 for a Bit Ten (with factory HU and Kenwood HU). Will post the results of these tests too!
> 
> Have a great weekend!


Well, the MS-8 is out and the BitTen is in and boy what a difference! Overall the sound is so much better, even though we didn't do any tuning at all. Straight from the box replacing the MS-8. Too bad the MS-8 didn't work for me 

I'm sure JBL will figure out why it doesn't work in all situations and will update firmware / hardware. I still think it is a great product, function wise.

I wish I could let you guys hear the difference...

Cheers!


----------



## brianhj

What is a BitTen?


----------



## subwoofery

tdrcrew said:


> Well, the MS-8 is out and the BitTen is in and boy what a difference! Overall the sound is so much better, even though we didn't do any tuning at all. Straight from the box replacing the MS-8. Too bad the MS-8 didn't work for me
> 
> I'm sure JBL will figure out why it doesn't work in all situations and will update firmware / hardware. I still think it is a great product, function wise.
> 
> I wish I could let you guys hear the difference...
> 
> Cheers!


Is your soundstage centered and in phase with your BitTen and no tuning? Polarity is correct? + to +, - to -?

Coz if you just replaced the MS-8 with the BitTen, no tuning done... I can only assume 1 driver was out of phase when your MS-8 was running it's calibration. 

Kelvin


----------



## tdrcrew

subwoofery said:


> Is your soundstage centered and in phase with your BitTen and no tuning? Polarity is correct? + to +, - to -?
> 
> Coz if you just replaced the MS-8 with the BitTen, no tuning done... I can only assume 1 driver was out of phase when your MS-8 was running it's calibration.
> 
> Kelvin


I haven't done the replacement myself but my installer. AFAIK they just took the MS-8 out, but the BitTen in and nothing more. I even asked them not to do any tuning so I could do that myself and hear the difference in less optimal setting. I'm not sure if they did the de-eq and amplifier sensitivity calibration.

I'm not sure if the soundstage is centered but I would assume it is. I haven't done any delaying.

It is very strange, it seems as if the speakers are playing louder.

If they didn't change anything else the polarity would be ok or else I would hear the same now.

How could one driver have been out of phase? Just curious


----------



## 14642

Or...it could be that a centered soundstage isn't what TDCrew is after. Some folks like to hear the speaker locations rather than an image. 

I've done demos for music producers who claim that time alignment makes themusic sound "mono".


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Or...it could be that a centered soundstage isn't what TDCrew is after. Some folks like to hear the speaker locations rather than an image.
> 
> I've done demos for music producers who claim that time alignment makes themusic sound "mono".


... In which case he could have just turned Logic7 and processing off, no?


----------



## tdrcrew

kaigoss69 said:


> ... In which case he could have just turned Logic7 and processing off, no?


Yes, sort of. And that is what I had but it still didn't sound the same. And by doing that there really is no need for the MS-8 if you ask me...

I can still add delay etc with the BitTen and I will but haven't got around it yet.


----------



## tdrcrew

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Or...it could be that a centered soundstage isn't what TDCrew is after. Some folks like to hear the speaker locations rather than an image.
> 
> I've done demos for music producers who claim that time alignment makes themusic sound "mono".


It might be that it has to do with that. It should present itself when I start doing time alignment with the BitTen. For now I'm just enjoying the music 

I really don't want to bash the product and I appreciate all your and everybody else's suggestions. Just letting you guys know how it went for me. I still think it is a great product but just because I didn't like it doesn't mean it is bad.

What I like about the MS-8 is the ease of use. No computer needed, you can just adjust the EQ on the fly. And that is what I don't like about the BitOne/BitTen.

But, you can't have all


----------



## ET328

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Or...it could be that a centered soundstage isn't what TDCrew is after. Some folks like to hear the speaker locations rather than an image.
> 
> I've done demos for music producers who claim that time alignment makes themusic sound "mono".


I also have noticed that time alignment makes soundstage sound more like mono i.e. stereo separation is much worse. That has happened with all the DSPs (head units and separate DSPs) that I have tried in my cars. 

But I found a cure: AudioControl ESP-2 connected before the DSP. Now I can have great stereo sound and soundstage is still centered. 

I guess there is no DSP in the market that has internal stereo width/separation adjustment?


----------



## subwoofery

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Or...it could be that a centered soundstage isn't what TDCrew is after. Some folks like to hear the speaker locations rather than an image.
> 
> I've done demos for music producers who claim that time alignment makes themusic sound "mono".


Never thought of that... Interesting for sure 

Kelvin


----------



## BuickGN

It's been hard for me to get used to the centered sound stage and TA. I know it is "proper" but I'm not sure if I'm going to keep the MS8 or not. It does everything it's supposed to do very well but it's just hard for me to get used to. I'll give it a few more months of tweaking since this is my first time using high end equipment and TA. I want to make sure it's just a personal preference and I'm not doing something wrong.


----------



## tdrcrew

BuickGN said:


> It's been hard for me to get used to the centered sound stage and TA. I know it is "proper" but I'm not sure if I'm going to keep the MS8 or not. It does everything it's supposed to do very well but it's just hard for me to get used to. I'll give it a few more months of tweaking since this is my first time using high end equipment and TA. I want to make sure it's just a personal preference and I'm not doing something wrong.


Might have been the same with me. I couldn't wait a few months though


----------



## 14642

Guys, most recordings are nearly mono with a few things going on in the right and left. This is one of the reasons that MS-8 has a center channel level control. If you like less center, you can turn it down. If you don't have a center and you don't like the way time alignment sounds and you think MS-8 sounds better with the processing off (especially in terms of imaging), then you don't like time alignment and aren't used to hearing true stereo.

Very interesting...I never would have guessed. I guess the next product should have "audiophile mode" and "amusement park mode". That's not meant to denegrate anyone who doesn't like audiophile mode. I like amusement parks--there's nothing better than a good roller coaster.


----------



## tdrcrew

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Guys, most recordings are nearly mono with a few things going on in the right and left. This is one of the reasons that MS-8 has a center channel level control. If you like less center, you can turn it down. If you don't have a center and you don't like the way time alignment sounds and you think MS-8 sounds better with the processing off (especially in terms of imaging), then you don't like time alignment and aren't used to hearing true stereo.
> 
> Very interesting...I never would have guessed. I guess the next product should have "audiophile mode" and "amusement park mode". That's not meant to denegrate anyone who doesn't like audiophile mode. I like amusement parks--there's nothing better than a good roller coaster.


Well, it was your own suggestion... I really don't have the knowledge to really discuss all this. All I can say is what I like and don't like.

So, the MS-8 is only for purists and it needs a dumbass setting. Not to denegrate anyone. I wish it would have been on there so I could have used it. Oh wait, I tried that and it STILL sounded like crap. I tried everything. Removing it worked wonders, though.

I'm not sure if you are trying to be funny or make an ass out of me and a lot of other people.

I really hate roller coasters, they make me puke.

Not to denegrate anyone, ofcourse.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

tdrcrew said:


> Well, it was your own suggestion... I really don't have the knowledge to really discuss all this. All I can say is what I like and don't like.
> 
> So, the MS-8 is only for purists and it needs a dumbass setting. Not to denegrate anyone. I wish it would have been on there so I could have used it. Oh wait, I tried that and it STILL sounded like crap. I tried everything. Removing it worked wonders, though.
> 
> I'm not sure if you are trying to be funny or make an ass out of me and a lot of other people.
> 
> I really hate roller coasters, they make me puke.
> 
> Not to denegrate anyone, ofcourse.


what he was saying is that some people have never heard true stereo reproduction, and still others simply don't like it. He also said it's perfectly o.k. and that everyone has personal preferences. However, that doesn't change the fact that the intended goal of stereo is a realistic representation of the original source material. It shouldn't sound like speakers playing music, it should sound like a holographic presentation of the original source.


----------



## asat11

Tdrcrew: I think Andy was being sincere, I really don't think he meant to belittle anyone. Personally, I am amazed at the MS-8 - it is taking some adjustment on my preferences but those preferences are based on what I have been used to hearing in my system's performance.(or inadequacies) I think the proof in the pudding is when I listen to a live recording... I play guitar in a band and I am now hearing the clarity and nuances in my system that I hear when playing / listening to live music. Our sound guy can tell you all about the quality of the mix - I just like what I hear...  That is just one example of the improvement that I hear with the MS-8. I think Andy is just getting a bit frustrated trying to educate some of us less experienced listeners and maybe some frustration because listening preferences are a pretty subjective thing. It must be a bit irritating to be a world class car audio tuner and to pour your heart into a product that can implement in a few hours what it has taken a lifetime to learn, only to have the consumer express disdain at an outcome that they don't like, based on......... preference?


----------



## 14642

tdrcrew said:


> Well, it was your own suggestion... I really don't have the knowledge to really discuss all this. All I can say is what I like and don't like.
> 
> So, the MS-8 is only for purists and it needs a dumbass setting. Not to denegrate anyone. I wish it would have been on there so I could have used it. Oh wait, I tried that and it STILL sounded like crap. I tried everything. Removing it worked wonders, though.
> 
> I'm not sure if you are trying to be funny or make an ass out of me and a lot of other people.
> 
> I really hate roller coasters, they make me puke.
> 
> Not to denegrate anyone, ofcourse.


no offense intended. I was just trying to say that we targeted a baseline performance that included a prominent and stable center image, but it appears that there are some listeners who would purchase such a device that better appreciate competent equalization and imaging that is more in keeping with a system that doesn't include a center speaker or a phantom center image that time alignment provides. I wish I could wave a magic wand and give you the ability to turn time alignment off, but I can't. Bummer. 

I'm not making judgement calls about your preferences or those of anyone else. I want everyone who buys a JBL product to be able to easily get they sound they like.


----------



## asat11

Sorry Andy, didn't mean to put words in your mouth.... but I figured you weren't being condescendent. I played with the center channel yesterday and I found that I like it better without - but it may have been the speaker I was using ( tried a 4" JL XR coax and a cheapo Pioneer 6.5 coax - just sitting on the dash, both sounded cheap and trebley ) but I am leaving the extra amp and wiring in place and may re-visit with a better driver. (or when my preferences change ) This is still the best my system has ever sounded... Also put in a set of SEAS Neo silk tweets..... now THAT was a sweet swap!!!!


----------



## Dirtboy

hemi4me? said:


> Well I can say one thing the customer service at JBL was really good.
> 
> I Called the center got the normal rep in India... TR me to a "supervisor" I assume a tech rep in US. He could not figure the issue and since the ins and outs are working must be an issue with the MS8. I then get an unexpected call 4 hours later from a guy at JBL listens to my issues again and again since all ins and outs are confirmed to be working issued me a RA. Way it sounds I will have a new one shortly.
> 
> ONLY worry is I hook this thing up and again no sound... LOL THEN I am back to where I am now!!!


Just shipped mine off this morning. I got my RA last week. Im still kinda pissed they won't ship the replacement unit to an APO address


----------



## t3sn4f2

asat11 said:


> Sorry Andy, didn't mean to put words in your mouth.... but I figured you weren't being condescendent. I played with the center channel yesterday and I found that I like it better without - but it may have been the speaker I was using ( tried a 4" JL XR coax and a cheapo Pioneer 6.5 coax - just sitting on the dash, both sounded cheap and trebley ) but I am leaving the extra amp and wiring in place and may re-visit with a better driver. (or when my preferences change ) This is still the best my system has ever sounded... Also put in a set of SEAS Neo silk tweets..... now THAT was a sweet swap!!!!


Try the 4" with a test enclosure on the dash. I bet it will make a HUGE difference if you can get it to play below 200Hz. Should be easy enough to make. Something the shape of a phone book with the driver mounted on one of the sides.


----------



## thehatedguy

I dunno...my MS-8 experience keeps getting better and better.

Next up is redoing the center with a much stouter midbass.


----------



## tdrcrew

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> no offense intended. I was just trying to say that we targeted a baseline performance that included a prominent and stable center image, but it appears that there are some listeners who would purchase such a device that better appreciate competent equalization and imaging that is more in keeping with a system that doesn't include a center speaker or a phantom center image that time alignment provides. I wish I could wave a magic wand and give you the ability to turn time alignment off, but I can't. Bummer.
> 
> I'm not making judgement calls about your preferences or those of anyone else. I want everyone who buys a JBL product to be able to easily get they sound they like.


I also wish you had a magic wand because there are a lot of things I do like about it 

C'est la vie!


----------



## big_ears

I just wanted to put my two cents in regarding TA and the stable center image. The MS-8 does it and does it well! In fact before I fully understood how the MS-8 worked, in particular before I learned that the center channel is only on in L7 mode, I assumed it was on all the time at a low volume as an acoustical accent like the stock tiny driver that was in the dash. It wasn't until I was working on my center channel installation that I realized it wasn't making any sound in stereo mode! I was getting a wonderful center image right in the center top of the dashboard for drivers position- I was blown away to realize that was happening with no contribution from the center channel. This is probably a testament to two things - the quality and performance of both my MS-8 and my H.A.T. front stage. In addition, after turning down my amp levels to fix balance issues, center image is now in front of me not center of dash.

I also have two cents to add regarding L7 and stereo images. Andy I hear you on that "most recordings" are mono with a little going on left and right. This is the exact reason L7 is not the best setting most of the time, IMHO. "Most recordings" come mainly out of the center channel in L7 mode and one loses the room (car) filling quality of stereo or 2 speaker mono. Now with music recorded to have distinct instrument/sound placement (i.e. guitar on left, piano center, drums right) L7 sounds amazing. My suggestion/idea/question is having an L7 adjustment to allow info less far to the right or left side to be sent to the right or left side to allow "most recordings" to sound more engaging (car filling) in L7. This would allow one, IMO, to use L7 more and therefore bolster the significance of the technology in this application.


----------



## 14642

asat11 said:


> Sorry Andy, didn't mean to put words in your mouth.... but I figured you weren't being condescendent. I played with the center channel yesterday and I found that I like it better without - but it may have been the speaker I was using ( tried a 4" JL XR coax and a cheapo Pioneer 6.5 coax - just sitting on the dash, both sounded cheap and trebley ) but I am leaving the extra amp and wiring in place and may re-visit with a better driver. (or when my preferences change ) This is still the best my system has ever sounded... Also put in a set of SEAS Neo silk tweets..... now THAT was a sweet swap!!!!


 
Can't leave it just sitting on the dash--you have to separate the front of the woofer from the back. Mount it in a shoebox at least!


----------



## 14642

big_ears said:


> I just wanted to put my two cents in regarding TA and the stable center image. The MS-8 does it and does it well! In fact before I fully understood how the MS-8 worked, in particular before I learned that the center channel is only on in L7 mode, I assumed it was on all the time at a low volume as an acoustical accent like the stock tiny driver that was in the dash. It wasn't until I was working on my center channel installation that I realized it wasn't making any sound in stereo mode! I was getting a wonderful center image right in the center top of the dashboard for drivers position- I was blown away to realize that was happening with no contribution from the center channel. This is probably a testament to two things - the quality and performance of both my MS-8 and my H.A.T. front stage. In addition, after turning down my amp levels to fix balance issues, center image is now in front of me not center of dash.
> 
> I also have two cents to add regarding L7 and stereo images. Andy I hear you on that "most recordings" are mono with a little going on left and right. This is the exact reason L7 is not the best setting most of the time, IMHO. "Most recordings" come mainly out of the center channel in L7 mode and one loses the room (car) filling quality of stereo or 2 speaker mono. Now with music recorded to have distinct instrument/sound placement (i.e. guitar on left, piano center, drums right) L7 sounds amazing. My suggestion/idea/question is having an L7 adjustment to allow info less far to the right or left side to be sent to the right or left side to allow "most recordings" to sound more engaging (car filling) in L7. This would allow one, IMO, to use L7 more and therefore bolster the significance of the technology in this application.


Left and right are attenuated by 6dB for center-steered signals. Left of center and right of center are generated just like a phantom center in a simple stereo. You can get almost exactly what you're looking for by turning down the center channel level. Front and rear steering is accomplished by comparing the phase of a given signal between left and right. -180 degrees will steer rear. After adjusting the center level, add a sense of space by turning up the rear. Set a favorite like this and switch between them.

By the way, it's very easy to tell who has an MS-8 hidden in their car with a simple test...


----------



## MattyKHZ

Andy,

Although I spoke to you ages ago and eventually ended up with my MS8, my install is looming so any tips for it?

Mini Cooper S R56
Standard HU feeding MS8 feeding 2 x Denon DCA760BL Amps (8 Channels Total)
Active 3 Way Front End with Morel Picollo Tweeter in the A Pillar, CDM54 in the upper door speaker location and Supremo 6 in lower. Final 2 channels to either feed Morel 6x9 in standard mini rear 6x9 location or 2 subs in that location. No room for a centre.

Any advice would be appreciated.


----------



## acidbass303

thehatedguy said:


> I dunno...my MS-8 experience keeps getting better and better.


+1 !!!



a little tip from my side for those who have issues with the center image created by MS8 in L7 mode (loud center etc), calibrate two seating positions, one for driver and the other for the passenger, after calibration is done, change the listening position in audio controls to "front", should take care of that issue and you will hopefully get the image you are looking for.

love the MS8! salutes to JBL and Andy!


----------



## mitchyz250f

What is the ideal voltage (RMS) for the AUX. input? Also, is it better to control volume from the source or through the MS-8 with source voltage optimized?


----------



## BuickGN

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Can't leave it just sitting on the dash--you have to separate the front of the woofer from the back. Mount it in a shoebox at least!


Doh. I knew better but I stuffed a 5-1/4" coaxial in the factory location that came with a 3.5". I just had to see what the center sounded like so I "tested" it with no enclosure for the coax and I was going to finish it up later that day. Somehow over the last two weeks I forgot that it was just laying inside the dash with no support and no enclosure. A friend was talking about how the center sounded like it was all treble the other day and I still didn't pick up on it. 

I've done a lot of stupid things in car audio but this is bad even for me. Going to Home Depot right now to enclose it in some pipe. This backs up my previous statement of sticking with the MS8 to eliminate errors on my part. MS8-1, Me-0.


----------



## nineball

Dirtboy said:


> Just shipped mine off this morning. I got my RA last week. Im still kinda pissed they won't ship the replacement unit to an APO address


almost no one will ship to an apo address. too much possibility for problems.


----------



## big_ears

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Left and right are attenuated by 6dB for center-steered signals. Left of center and right of center are generated just like a phantom center in a simple stereo. You can get almost exactly what you're looking for by turning down the center channel level. Front and rear steering is accomplished by comparing the phase of a given signal between left and right. -180 degrees will steer rear. After adjusting the center level, add a sense of space by turning up the rear. Set a favorite like this and switch between them.
> 
> By the way, it's very easy to tell who has an MS-8 hidden in their car with a simple test...


After trying your suggestions and messing with stuff it has become apparent my center is way too loud and was screwing the L7 performance. I have definitely tried attenuating the center level before but have not listened as critically to the results with the car off. It is sounding way better with a hefty attenuation. I've tried before to turn the other amp gains up to match the center level better, but that steers my balance right. I should have known this fix as I knew the center was too loud. :blush: I unfortunately thought the MS-8 would "know best" and left the center level as MS-8 had set it. P.S. - fading rear didn't really seem to help any as far as i can tell.


----------



## Dirtboy

nineball said:


> almost no one will ship to an apo address. too much possibility for problems.


That may have been true 10 years ago, but it's the other way around now. Most companies will ship to APO addresses. The ones that won't are the lazy ones that don't want to use the USPS because the Post Office won't pick up at the companies door step. I got my MS8 from Crutchfield, they have always shipped to APO's. I try to avoid companies that won't ship to APO's, and I tell all my friends/coworkers to avoid them too...


----------



## jhnkvn

Just bought the MS-8 yesterday. Figured I'll try it first on a stock system before installing aftermarket speakers.

Initial impressions are quite minor. Improved sound spectrum on some tracks but the most apparent benefit is the T/A and staging. One passenger commented that the only difference he hear was that the music is now in the center.

Personally, I wouldn't think this is a big leap from an OEM system, but I decided to give it my attention rather than trading it in for a BitOne. Tuning might be a pain in the future with the automatic equalizer auto-tune (forget that: it IS a pain) so I might not participate in the upcoming EMMAs until JBL decided to upgrade the firmware to bypass the auto-tune.


----------



## acidbass303

jhnkvn said:


> Just bought the MS-8 yesterday. Figured I'll try it first on a stock system before installing aftermarket speakers.
> 
> Initial impressions are quite minor. Improved sound spectrum on some tracks but the most apparent benefit is the T/A and staging. One passenger commented that the only difference he hear was that the music is now in the center.
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't think this is a big leap from an OEM system, but I decided to give it my attention rather than trading it in for a BitOne. Tuning might be a pain in the future with the automatic equalizer auto-tune (forget that: it IS a pain) so I might not participate in the upcoming EMMAs until JBL decided to upgrade the firmware to bypass the auto-tune.


But you can defeat the processing in the audio controls menu, bypassing the tuning.


----------



## 14642

jhnkvn said:


> Just bought the MS-8 yesterday. Figured I'll try it first on a stock system before installing aftermarket speakers.
> 
> Initial impressions are quite minor. Improved sound spectrum on some tracks but the most apparent benefit is the T/A and staging. One passenger commented that the only difference he hear was that the music is now in the center.
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't think this is a big leap from an OEM system, but I decided to give it my attention rather than trading it in for a BitOne. Tuning might be a pain in the future with the automatic equalizer auto-tune (forget that: it IS a pain) so I might not participate in the upcoming EMMAs until JBL decided to upgrade the firmware to bypass the auto-tune.


Use the 31-band EQ to do all the tuning you want. This should be simple. MS-8 matches the left and the right for you and sets time alignment. If you don't like the target curve, that's what the 31-band EQ is for. It's basically a target curve changer. Boost where you need more and cut where you need less.

What's in your stock system? Is there a subwoofer? Which car?


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> IF you have Logic7 enabled, the rear speakers will play mainly ambient sounds that are in the recording. Some really dry studio mixes won't make much in the rear speakers, but a live recording will.
> 
> There are a few programs that will let you downmix DVDs to 2-channels as MP3s. Doa google search and try that.


Andy,

can you expand on that a little bit? Would a music file ripped from a DVD be better than one ripped for a CD? If yes, what format/bitrate would you recommend?

I would love to have a bit more "ambience" with the L7, but only if it was real and not artificial.

Thanks!


----------



## 14642

ripping and downmixing aren't the same. Ripping a CD is the same as the CD. Downmixing a DVD puts the 6 channel streams in the two channels in a way that they can be extracted by an upmixer designed to do that (like L7 or PLII).


----------



## rdv

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Left and right are attenuated by 6dB for center-steered signals. Left of center and right of center are generated just like a phantom center in a simple stereo. You can get almost exactly what you're looking for by turning down the center channel level. Front and rear steering is accomplished by comparing the phase of a given signal between left and right. -180 degrees will steer rear. After adjusting the center level, add a sense of space by turning up the rear. Set a favorite like this and switch between them.
> 
> By the way, it's very easy to tell who has an MS-8 hidden in their car with a simple test...


so how do you tell if a car has a hidden MS-8?


----------



## MattyKHZ

thehatedguy said:


> I dunno...my MS-8 experience keeps getting better and better.
> 
> Next up is redoing the center with a much stouter midbass.


Is that the modded one? Too soon to comment on improvement?


----------



## thehatedguy

The mods are nice once you have done everything else right.

Listen to Andy's advice about using the MS-8. You need to have your front sides as wide as possible, use a proper center channel- the larger the better, the center channel should be the "best" speakers in the car, use tweeters, use the rear speakers.

The MS-8 is ok as a 2 channel processor. The magic lies in the Logic 7 and using all of the things the processor is capable of doing. Going balls out on your fronts and half assing a center isn't going to get you the results the unit is capable of getting. The center needs to be as good or better than the fronts...the bigger the better too.


----------



## subwoofery

rdv said:


> so how do you tell if a car has a hidden MS-8?


Just use a program that let's you create some in phase (IP) and out of phase (OOP) sound then create your file so that it goes like this: 
FL (IP) --> FC (IP) --> FR (IP) --> FR (IP)+RR (OOP) --> RR (OOP) --> RC (OOP) --> RL (OOP) --> RL (OOP)+FL (IP) --> FL (IP) --> etc... 
Then rip on a CD and play with an MS-8 setup - the sound should rotate around the car  

Kelvin


----------



## thehatedguy

Yeah phasing tracks are a trip to listen to. On the "my voice is in phase, my voice is out of phase" type tracks, the first out of phase will sound out of phase, but will sound in phase when they repeat the phrase.

Some surround sound/hybrid audio mixed CDs will cause the processor to freak out though. I have Telarc SACD/Hybrid multichannel surround regular CD that the processor just doesn't know what to do with some information in some of the tracks.


----------



## t3sn4f2

jhnkvn said:


> Just bought the MS-8 yesterday. Figured I'll try it first on a stock system before installing aftermarket speakers.
> 
> Initial impressions are quite minor. Improved sound spectrum on some tracks but the most apparent benefit is the T/A and staging. One passenger commented that the only difference he hear was that the music is now in the center.
> 
> *Personally, I wouldn't think this is a big leap from an OEM system, but I decided to give it my attention rather than trading it in for a BitOne.* Tuning might be a pain in the future with the automatic equalizer auto-tune (forget that: it IS a pain) so I might not participate in the upcoming EMMAs until JBL decided to upgrade the firmware to bypass the auto-tune.


But what were you expecting though. Mostly any oem system nowadays is going to sound _good_, without any major dips or peak in the response. Only thing it won't have is a center stage. 

Sounds like the MS-8 did what it could for that system, ie slightly improve EQ due to only tuning for one seat instead of for all like OEM systems do, and create a center stage from that one seat tuning as well.


----------



## 14642

subwoofery said:


> Just use a program that let's you create some in phase (IP) and out of phase (OOP) sound then create your file so that it goes like this:
> FL (IP) --> FC (IP) --> FR (IP) --> FR (IP)+RR (OOP) --> RR (OOP) --> RC (OOP) --> RL (OOP) --> RL (OOP)+FL (IP) --> FL (IP) --> etc...
> Then rip on a CD and play with an MS-8 setup - the sound should rotate around the car
> 
> Kelvin


I have a track like that that we use for testing 2-chanel versions of L7. It's not just phase, it's level too.


----------



## rdv

subwoofery said:


> Just use a program that let's you create some in phase (IP) and out of phase (OOP) sound then create your file so that it goes like this:
> FL (IP) --> FC (IP) --> FR (IP) --> FR (IP)+RR (OOP) --> RR (OOP) --> RC (OOP) --> RL (OOP) --> RL (OOP)+FL (IP) --> FL (IP) --> etc...
> Then rip on a CD and play with an MS-8 setup - the sound should rotate around the car
> 
> Kelvin


never done that before. ill give it a try, actually never really thought of playing with ip or oop tracks with the ms8


----------



## thehatedguy

I'd like to make a track like that...but it is beyond what I know how to do.


----------



## 14642

rdv said:


> so how do you tell if a car has a hidden MS-8?


I'm not telling...until I show up at a contest and find someone from some other competition team who claims that he's used some trickery that only exists in mythology and wins. Then I'll expose it and all I have to do is listen to one track...

Can anyone say, "Teardown!"


----------



## MattyKHZ

thehatedguy said:


> The mods are nice once you have done everything else right.
> 
> Listen to Andy's advice about using the MS-8. You need to have your front sides as wide as possible, use a proper center channel- the larger the better, the center channel should be the "best" speakers in the car, use tweeters, use the rear speakers.
> 
> The MS-8 is ok as a 2 channel processor. The magic lies in the Logic 7 and using all of the things the processor is capable of doing. Going balls out on your fronts and half assing a center isn't going to get you the results the unit is capable of getting. The center needs to be as good or better than the fronts...the bigger the better too.


So in my set up in a Mini I am unsure where I could fit a centre speaker without seriuos modification to the dashboard.

As my Supremo 6, CDM54 and Picolloo 3 way active front end is all Morel I presume another Picollo or CDM54 would be best for centre but it would still be a massive undertaking for a car that does not normally have a centre.

The advice I am getting here in the UK is for a small car like mine a 3 Way active front end and possibly rear sub is all I need.

My problem is no-one uses the MS8 here and all use the Bit One so it looks like I may have to trade in the MS8 for a Bit One as my install will only ever be as good as the installer makes it.

I was hoping my front end with Morel Tempo 6x9 for rear fill would be sufficient for the MS8 but if it does not sing till a ventre is used, I cannot see myself enabling that.

Cheers for all the advice people. Glad I checked before losing money.


----------



## kaigoss69

MattyKHZ said:


> ... trade in the MS8 for a Bit One as my install will only ever be as good as the installer makes it.


True with the BitOne, as you are "stuck" with someone else's tuning, but the MS-8 will make the most of it every time.


----------



## subiemax

MattyKHZ said:


> My problem is no-one uses the MS8 here and all use the Bit One so it looks like I may have to trade in the MS8 for a Bit One as my install will only ever be as good as the installer makes it.


The MS8 is about as simple as it gets to use. If your installer can't figure it out, find a new one. Lol.


----------



## tdrcrew

kaigoss69 said:


> True with the BitOne, as you are "stuck" with someone else's tuning, but the MS-8 will make the most of it every time.


Why? You can change it yourself if you don't like it. Yes, you probably have to put some effort in it but in the end you will learn a lot of new things and have something _you_ like. The same can be said about the MS-8.


----------



## tdrcrew

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm not telling...until I show up at a contest and find someone from some other competition team who claims that he's used some trickery that only exists in mythology and wins. Then I'll expose it and all I have to do is listen to one track...
> 
> Can anyone say, "Teardown!"


Black magic?


----------



## tdrcrew

MattyKHZ said:


> So in my set up in a Mini I am unsure where I could fit a centre speaker without seriuos modification to the dashboard.
> 
> As my Supremo 6, CDM54 and Picolloo 3 way active front end is all Morel I presume another Picollo or CDM54 would be best for centre but it would still be a massive undertaking for a car that does not normally have a centre.
> 
> The advice I am getting here in the UK is for a small car like mine a 3 Way active front end and possibly rear sub is all I need.
> 
> My problem is no-one uses the MS8 here and all use the Bit One so it looks like I may have to trade in the MS8 for a Bit One as my install will only ever be as good as the installer makes it.
> 
> I was hoping my front end with Morel Tempo 6x9 for rear fill would be sufficient for the MS8 but if it does not sing till a ventre is used, I cannot see myself enabling that.
> 
> Cheers for all the advice people. Glad I checked before losing money.


If you want to do some testing yourself just try the MS-8 first. Let them do all the cabling and such and hook up the MS-8 yourself if they can't or won't do that. The setup is really not hard. You can always sell it and buy a BitOne. Be your own judge. If you run into problems, there are some very good people overhere that can help you.

You will be the first and perhaps blow everybody away 

I didn't like it but I do have to admit that some songs just don't sound the same with the BitTen(/One). The clarity and detail I sometimes got with the MS-8 were amazing. But I do like the overall sound of the BitTen(/One)... I wish there was some hybrid solution to it 

Perhaps MS-8 v2

I sure hope that no firmware comes out anytime soon, fixing some of these problems


----------



## 14642

MattyKHZ said:


> So in my set up in a Mini I am unsure where I could fit a centre speaker without seriuos modification to the dashboard.
> 
> As my Supremo 6, CDM54 and Picolloo 3 way active front end is all Morel I presume another Picollo or CDM54 would be best for centre but it would still be a massive undertaking for a car that does not normally have a centre.
> 
> The advice I am getting here in the UK is for a small car like mine a 3 Way active front end and possibly rear sub is all I need.
> 
> My problem is no-one uses the MS8 here and all use the Bit One so it looks like I may have to trade in the MS8 for a Bit One as my install will only ever be as good as the installer makes it.
> 
> I was hoping my front end with Morel Tempo 6x9 for rear fill would be sufficient for the MS8 but if it does not sing till a ventre is used, I cannot see myself enabling that.
> 
> Cheers for all the advice people. Glad I checked before losing money.


I tune MS-8s in cars without center channels all day long and they sound great. A center is sometimes a little better and is definitely better in cars where two seats have to sound good. To say that MS-8 doesn't work without a center is just plain wrong. 

Keep speakers in the front away from the A-pillar and out of the dashboard (except center speakers) and MS-8 does a great job.


----------



## Salami

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Keep speakers in the front away from the A-pillar and out of the dashboard (except center speakers) and MS-8 does a great job.


What? No speakers in the A-pillars? 

Tweeters? No speakers at all?

With the MS-8 where would be a best place for tweeters in a two way system? What about mid and tweeter in a 3 way?

Or am I misinterpreting this?


----------



## UNBROKEN

Curious myself....as I'm putting my mids and tweets on the pillars now and won't have a center channel.


----------



## subwoofery

Salami said:


> What? No speakers in the A-pillars?
> 
> Tweeters? No speakers at all?
> 
> With the MS-8 where would be a best place for tweeters in a two way system? What about mid and tweeter in a 3 way?
> 
> Or am I misinterpreting this?


Andy already said many times to use the midbass low in doors, kicks or under the front seats, midrange above the midbass location (still in doors) and tweeter in the sails. 
Also use each speaker below its beaming range and you should be good - no aiming required if used below beaming . 

Kelvin


----------



## 14642

UNBROKEN said:


> Curious myself....as I'm putting my mids and tweets on the pillars now and won't have a center channel.


Lemme see if I can draw something that will better explain why a-pillars blow unless you have the knowledge, ability and processing tools to properly manage the reflection off the near side glass. 

This isn't about whether it works with MS-8 or not, it's about "whether it works". Winning a contest in Pee Dee, Arkansas doesn't validate the hypothesis that suggests a-pillar locations are best. 

Oh, no offense intended to anyone here who lives in Pee Dee. 

Even with nutso processing and serious analysis tools, it's a crapshoot at best. One thing is for certain with mids and tweeters in the a-pillars, though, the image will be above the dash. This idea that you can get them perfectly on-axis and that on-axis placement is important is borne of a lack of understanding about speaker dispersion. 

I can't do this today, because I'm killed with other stuff. If you're working on a-pillars but haven't cut the original parts up yet, find something else to do for a little while. You might change your mind.


----------



## 14642

subwoofery said:


> Andy already said many times to use the midbass low in doors, kicks or under the front seats, midrange above the midbass location (still in doors) and tweeter in the sails.
> Also use each speaker below its beaming range and you should be good - no aiming required if used below beaming .
> 
> Kelvin


Yes, this is right.


----------



## acidbass303

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Lemme see if I can draw something that will better explain why a-pillars blow unless you have the knowledge, ability and processing tools to properly manage the reflection off the near side glass.
> 
> This isn't about whether it works with MS-8 or not, it's about "whether it works". Winning a contest in Pee Dee, Arkansas doesn't validate the hypothesis that suggests a-pillar locations are best.
> 
> Oh, no offense intended to anyone here who lives in Pee Dee.
> 
> Even with nutso processing and serious analysis tools, it's a crapshoot at best. One thing is for certain with mids and tweeters in the a-pillars, though, the image will be above the dash. This idea that you can get them perfectly on-axis and that on-axis placement is important is borne of a lack of understanding about speaker dispersion.
> 
> I can't do this today, because I'm killed with other stuff. If you're working on a-pillars but haven't cut the original parts up yet, find something else to do for a little while. You might change your mind.



will definitely wait for this..


----------



## quietfly

i'm interested in this as well.


----------



## UNBROKEN

I would think its worth the wait if Andy is willing to put the time into an explanation. 
And no, I haven't cut anything yet. lol


----------



## thehatedguy

That and those locations are some of the most narrow parts of the car.

My mids are in the pillars...really no other place to put them up high and make them completely stealth. However they are behind the trim so they are still pretty wide. Tweeters are on the sail panels. The mids can play higher than I have them crossed, but I keep them XOed well below the beaming point.

I have cut, but replacement pillar covers are cheap


----------



## UNBROKEN

thehatedguy said:


> That and those locations are some of the most narrow parts of the car.
> 
> My mids are in the pillars...really no other place to put them up high and make them completely stealth. However they are behind the trim so they are still pretty wide. Tweeters are on the sail panels. The mids can play higher than I have them crossed, but I keep them XOed well below the beaming point.
> 
> I have cut, but replacement pillar covers are cheap


I hate to hijack a thread but what's your opinion if said vehicle is an F250?
Arguably the widest vehicle you can buy. 
I'm also 6'7" so I sit with the seats all the way back as well as reclined quite a bit. 
My reason behind the a-pillars is that the doors aren't symmetrical. If I were to put the mids high on the doors the driver side would be ~3" further back than the passenger side. Kick panels are out of the question with a size 16 boot. lol


----------



## UNBROKEN

Some quick numbers since I can't edit the last post right with my phone. 
Path lengths from the center of my head:
Driver side a pillar 52"
Pass side a pillar 65"
Driver side kick 61"
Pass side kick 73"

Not sure if that matters...just wanted to throw it out there.


----------



## quietfly

UNBROKEN said:


> I hate to hijack a thread but what's your opinion if said vehicle is an F250?
> Arguably the widest vehicle you can buy.
> I'm also 6'7" so I sit with the seats all the way back as well as reclined quite a bit.
> My reason behind the a-pillars is that the doors aren't symmetrical. If I were to put the mids high on the doors the driver side would be ~3" further back than the passenger side. Kick panels are out of the question with a size 16 boot. lol


I'm not sure not being symmetrical is an issue as the TA should account for that.... from what i understand, its the placement of the tweets/mids that is most important and since our ears can be fooled in to "stage height perception" i'm thinking Andy's reasoning is going to have to do with reflections of different types. and as for where your head is while you listen, that's why the head set is on your head while you setup (tune, whatever)....


----------



## UNBROKEN

I understand, to a point, the reflection issue with the windshield. 
I'm addressing that to the extent of my knowledge. I'm even reupholstering the truck from leather to cloth to hopefully deal with some of that. 
Another issue with mids in the upper doors is with the armrest/switch plates. 
The mid would fire basically straight into my leg. 
I guess I thought that opening up the space in front of the driver would help more than the reflections would hurt?

Sounds like this may need to be cut out into a separate thread. lol


----------



## quietfly

UNBROKEN said:


> I understand, to a point, the reflection issue with the windshield.
> I'm addressing that to the extent of my knowledge. I'm even reupholstering the truck from leather to cloth to hopefully deal with some of that.
> Another issue with mids in the upper doors is with the armrest/switch plates.
> The mid would fire basically straight into my leg.
> I guess I thought that opening up the space in front of the driver would help more than the reflections would hurt?
> 
> Sounds like this may need to be cut out into a separate thread. lol


well i might re-ask this in a separate thread so it doesn't get lost/buried. 
I might be completely wrong here, so i'll just reserve the right to say oops. 
From what i understand about DSP's is they can not tell the difference between first and second order reflections. apparently there is only so much DSP can "fix" . Essentially by introducing extra second order sources all coming from the windshield, the amount of work that any DSP needs to to is summarily increased. Plus if we take in to account how we perceive what we are hearing, auralization, we may get much more complicated of a "picture" than we first intended. 
Essentially the K.I.S.S. principle, keeping it simple will lead to less clutter all around. that being said i've heard some AMAZING systems with tweeters diffusing in to the windshield.


----------



## rain27

quietfly said:


> well i might re-ask this in a separate thread so it doesn't get lost/buried.
> I might be completely wrong here, so i'll just reserve the right to say oops.
> From what i understand about DSP's is they can not tell the difference between first and second order reflections. apparently there is only so much DSP can "fix" . Essentially by introducing extra second order sources all coming from the windshield, the amount of work that any DSP needs to to is summarily increased. Plus if we take in to account how we perceive what we are hearing, auralization, we may get much more complicated of a "picture" than we first intended.
> Essentially the K.I.S.S. principle, keeping it simple will lead to less clutter all around. that being said i've heard some AMAZING systems with tweeters diffusing in to the windshield.


Can you specify which tweeters were used in those amazing systems? I would have utilize the MS-8 this way in an install.


----------



## 14642

quietfly said:


> well i might re-ask this in a separate thread so it doesn't get lost/buried.
> I might be completely wrong here, so i'll just reserve the right to say oops.
> From what i understand about DSP's is they can not tell the difference between first and second order reflections. apparently there is only so much DSP can "fix" . Essentially by introducing extra second order sources all coming from the windshield, the amount of work that any DSP needs to to is summarily increased. Plus if we take in to account how we perceive what we are hearing, auralization, we may get much more complicated of a "picture" than we first intended.
> Essentially the K.I.S.S. principle, keeping it simple will lead to less clutter all around. that being said i've heard some AMAZING systems with tweeters diffusing in to the windshield.


 
Getting warmer--this one is on the right track. However, the reflection issue has little to do with DSP. basically, automatic TA can't effectively make a judgement call about what is the true source of the sound, but building a system that a DSP can't figure out doesn't mean the DSP isn't smart or that the design is advanced or better. MS-8 is designed to make good systems sound better. In order to qualify for MS-8 definition of "good" certain principles have to be considered and even followed. This one is a pretty complicated one and one that isn't so obvious.

I'll try to get this done as quickly as possible, but I'm having fun watching posters here zero in on the problem.

Here are a few tips to speed the course to a solution. 

1.Sound is attenuated by 6dB for every doubling of distance from the source.
2. We use level at high frequencies to determine the direction of sounds at high frequencies and phase (or time) at low frequencirs. 
3. We can eliminate a reflection (at least minimize it) by using the surface as a baffle by mounting the driver in the surface.
4. We don't have to be concerned about on-axis so long as we use the drivers in their piston ranges (where dispersion is pretty uniform at all forward angles).
5. Tweeters are easier to aim than larger drivers.
6. Acoustic crosstalk kills stereo (don't focus on this one, but consider it).

Ok, back to work for me. I'll be back later.


----------



## yuri

A bit late for some of us  
still both systems sound fantastic ...........


----------



## 14642

Yeah, I'm not saying that you can't make them sound acceptable. Rather, there's a simpler and easier way to get better sound.


----------



## UNBROKEN

But a midrange high in the door firing right into the drivers leg is still a bad thing, right?
I just bought new door panels so I'm wide open with options here.


----------



## thehatedguy

I think Andy is going for a location like high and foward on the door...like where your door handles are at (well they are in my car). That location is high enough to get "over" the obstructions like a leg...and they are physically wider than your typical pillar build and a lot wider than a dash mounted mid. Aiming wouldn't matter if using tweeters crossed reasonably since the speaker is still in the piston range.

IMO you have to unlearn some of the things we have learned in 2 channel when doing a multichannel setup to get the best results...I am learning this the old fashion way- the hard way (messing crap up) and listening to those who know more than me.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ripping and downmixing aren't the same. Ripping a CD is the same as the CD. Downmixing a DVD puts the 6 channel streams in the two channels in a way that they can be extracted by an upmixer designed to do that (like L7 or PLII).


So maybe I live under a rock but I always thought the buck - as far as 2-channel source sound quality is concerned - stops with an audio CD. So now downmixing a DVD and playing it through the MS-8 can be "better"? Tell me more...anyone? I can't find crap with google.


----------



## brianhj

kaigoss69 said:


> So maybe I live under a rock but I always thought the buck - as far as 2-channel source sound quality is concerned - stops with an audio CD. So now downmixing a DVD and playing it through the MS-8 can be "better"? Tell me more...anyone? I can't find crap with google.


dvd audio can be up to 24-bit 192khz.. which is over four times the sampling rate of CDs


----------



## UNBROKEN

Andy, if you have a recommendation for a 3" mid in these door panels I'm all ears.
My leg lays right along/under the bottom of the armrest area.


----------



## subiemax

Andy, when you get around to it, what are your thoughts on tweets in the kicks. That's where mine are, off axis, and I think they sound pretty good. Stage is above the dash most of the time and imaging is excellent. Oh, mids are in the doors.


----------



## AWC

Andy....if I were to suggest that I've considered having an MS8 disected and supermodified by the hands of zeus, would you dance with me at the prom or would you think I was crazy? What supermods would you suggest?


----------



## brianhj

AWC said:


> Andy....if I were to suggest that I've considered having an MS8 disected and supermodified by the hands of zeus, would you dance with me at the prom or would you think I was crazy? What supermods would you suggest?


i lol'd


----------



## Gary Mac

Andy- were you ever able to find time to determine the best db range for the sweeps during the auto tune ?


----------



## t3sn4f2

brianhj said:


> dvd audio can be up to 24-bit 192khz.. which is over four times the sampling rate of CDs


And 4 times the sample rate needed to accurately reproduce any analog wave form up to ~22kHz.


----------



## kaigoss69

brianhj said:


> dvd audio can be up to 24-bit 192khz.. which is over four times the sampling rate of CDs



So this may be a bit OT but someone please tell me how to go from Audio DVD >>> digital file >>> MS-8 , and what realistic audible differences one can expect compared to CD quality.


----------



## brianhj

t3sn4f2 said:


> And 4 times the sample rate needed to accurately reproduce any analog wave form up to ~22kHz.


what?


----------



## t3sn4f2

brianhj said:


> what?


A Fundamental Introduction to the Compact Disc Player

Sampling

*Given an analog audio signal, a process is needed to bring it into the digital domain. This process is sampling, and it is dictated by the Nyquist sampling theorem which states how quickly samples must be taken to ensure an accurate representation of the analog signal.*

The sampling theorem is quite simple. It states that the sampling frequency must be greater than or equal to the highest frequency in the original analog signal. The relationship is given by Equation 1; note that the theorem can also be expressed in terms of the sampling period.

(1)
The sampling theorem is simple enough, but to use it in a digital audio system, two constraints must be observed. The first is that the original signal must be bandlimited to half the sampling frequency by being passed through an ideal low-pass filter; the second is that the output signal must again be passed through an ideal low-pass filter to reproduce the analog signal. These constraints are crucial to sampling, and if not observed will lead to an unwanted effect known as aliasing."


----------



## brianhj

t3sn4f2 said:


> A Fundamental Introduction to the Compact Disc Player
> 
> Sampling
> 
> *Given an analog audio signal, a process is needed to bring it into the digital domain. This process is sampling, and it is dictated by the Nyquist sampling theorem which states how quickly samples must be taken to ensure an accurate representation of the analog signal.*
> 
> The sampling theorem is quite simple. It states that the sampling frequency must be greater than or equal to the highest frequency in the original analog signal. The relationship is given by Equation 1; note that the theorem can also be expressed in terms of the sampling period.
> 
> (1)
> The sampling theorem is simple enough, but to use it in a digital audio system, two constraints must be observed. The first is that the original signal must be bandlimited to half the sampling frequency by being passed through an ideal low-pass filter; the second is that the output signal must again be passed through an ideal low-pass filter to reproduce the analog signal. These constraints are crucial to sampling, and if not observed will lead to an unwanted effect known as aliasing."



Ohhhhh I see what you're saying.. I read your original post wrong.

In other words, there aren't any audible gains from using 192khz, since 44khz is ample to accurately reproduce 22khz, correct?

And since most can't hear that high anyway, why reproduce any higher?


----------



## t3sn4f2

brianhj said:


> Ohhhhh I see what you're saying.. I read your original post wrong.
> 
> In other words, there aren't any audible gains from using 192khz, since 44khz is ample to accurately reproduce 22khz, correct?
> 
> And since most can't hear that high anyway, why reproduce any higher?


That's how many people see it.


----------



## vactor

the laws of physics have a way of winning that's ... universal. one can use tools that work within a defined set of criteria to overcome the walls that are placed in front of us by the laws of physics, and under the right circumstances, other methods can be sued to achieve a desired result. however, it is always easier to use the laws to your advantage where feasible. so much has been made of stage eight and getting tweeters up high or mids up high. however, doing this at the price of better path length differences is a total waste. i have had kick panel installs in the last 3 of my cars with mids and tweets in the kicks, DOWN LOW. and NEVER ONCE have i had a problem with stage height! the stage has ALWAYS been WIDE and full and deep, and above the dash. i now have an MS8 setup using stock door locations and a center. it works VERY well, but it is not as airy and effortlessly wide and imagines quite as well as the simple kick installs i have had. but, it LOOKS exactly like stock, because it is. plays a LOT louder and has GOOD imaging etc. but, if i were to do it the way i wanted to and sacrifice stealth, damn better believe the mids would go straight into the kicks with the tweets!!! but, i would never put the tweets and midrange in the pillars, as that is about the worst place you can use for PLD's and a bad place for reflections, which no amount of EQ or time alignment can take care of.


----------



## UNBROKEN

So what are your options when kick panels are 100% not an option and your leg will 100% block the midrange ?
I don't think anyone will argue that a pillars are easy...but many have proven thy can work very well. 
The question for this thread is about whether they will or won't work with an MS-8

I would argue that upper door mounted midranges are even worse for PLD's than a pillars...but that's the recommended spot for using the MS-8 apparently.


----------



## vactor

UNBROKEN said:


> So what are your options when kick panels are 100% not an option and your leg will 100% block the midrange ?
> I don't think anyone will argue that a pillars are easy...but many have proven thy can work very well.
> The question for this thread is about whether they will or won't work with an MS-8
> 
> I would argue that upper door mounted midranges are even worse for PLD's than a pillars...but that's the recommended spot for using the MS-8 apparently.


exactly, but they will still be MUCH better than pillars when it comes to reflections. therefore, the fewer evils, the better, and high door mounting is better.


----------



## subwoofery

UNBROKEN said:


> So what are your options when kick panels are 100% not an option and your leg will 100% block the midrange ?
> I don't think anyone will argue that a pillars are easy...but many have proven thy can work very well.
> The question for this thread is about whether they will or won't work with an MS-8
> 
> I would argue that upper door mounted midranges are even worse for PLD's than a pillars...but that's the recommended spot for using the MS-8 apparently.


PLD won't matter much if you add a center channel with your MS-8. Well at least that's how I understood the concept  

Kelvin


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> So maybe I live under a rock but I always thought the buck - as far as 2-channel source sound quality is concerned - stops with an audio CD. So now downmixing a DVD and playing it through the MS-8 can be "better"? Tell me more...anyone? I can't find crap with google.


My suggestion for downmizing has nothing to do with resolution or sampling rate. In my car I have a really difficult time distinguishing between MP3 @ >256 and a CD. I use a room synthesis algorithm, though, so all of the mewling over "lack of space between the instruments" doesn't matter to me--my car makes that space.

My suggestion for downmixing was that if you have recordings that include real surround effects (audience all around you and a good sense of the room), MS-8's logic7 will play that back in full surround. If you have a DVD player in your car, choose the 2-channel downmix that's on the CD. That includes the 6 audio streams mixed in to the 2-channel track.

If you don't have a DVD player, look on google for a piece of software that will downmix for you. Then, you can put the full surround track on your iPod or other portable and have real surround in the car. Try a gooc concert video...


----------



## 14642

OK, Once Again, my flickr account doesn't work and I don't have time to figure out why. Sorry. I'll have to do this long hand:

1. We've been through this before, but here goes again. At frequencies with wavelengths that are long compared to the diameter of the cone, sound is radiated in ALL diretions--front, back, and sides. As frequency rises, radiation towards the rear diminishes and at very high frequencies, sound is radiated into a narrow space directly in front of the speaker.

2. If you think about that in terms of measuring the frequency response of the speaker at various angles, you'll discover that the frequency response is pretty wide in front and low frequency only behind. This happens for ALL speakers. 100Hz is BASS for a 4" and sound is radiated front, back, sides, etc. 500Hz is bass for 1" tweeter. 

3. we put speakers in baffles and boxes to isolate the front wave from the back wave so we can hear more low frequency. The baffle or box prevents cancellation, right? If the sound only radiated towards the front, we wouldn't have to worry about cancellation, right? The baffle also helps to increase the low frequencies by reflecting the sound that radiates toward the rear back into the front-going wave. A horn does this same thing, but it just keeps folding the off-axis response back into the on axis response. The angle of the walls and the shape of the mouth determine the radiation pattern. A baffle is a simple dispersion controlling device.

4. When reflected sound meets direct sound, the reflected sound is delayed compared to the original sound that created the reflection. The direct sound and the reflected sound will be out of phase at some frequency and multiples of that frequency. That's comb filtering, and it's no big deal, but the lowest out-of-phase condition is a kind of big deal because the width of the suckout is pretty big. 

5. We use level at high frequencies to determine the location of sound in the lateral plane (side to side) and phase (or time) as frequencies go lower. At really low frequencies, we don't use level very effectively. At the top of the midrange both are important. It's not a strict cut-off. In fact, from 1kHz to 3kH, we don't use either very well. 

6. When there are two sources for a sound that are identical in frequency and time, we hear a phantom source in between. That's why we hear a center image in a stereo system. If we have a speaker and a reflection that have the same frequency response, we'll hear a phantom image inbetween. If the frequency reponse of the reflection is NOT the same, then the image will be placed differently for sounds at different frequencies. If 1kHz is louder in the reflection, 1kHz will image closer to the reflecting surface. At the frequency where the speaker and the reflection are out of phase, we'll hear two images (or no image, depending on your perspective). This causes images to wander around. 

7. When you EQ or delay a channel, you EQ or delay the reflection in the same way. You can't do one without the other--that's the law. You also can't cover the glass if you want to drive the car. 

8. At home, we can use this reflection easily to create an image that's wider than the speaker and a speaker with constant directivity (similar on and off axis response) does this better than a speaker with a jagged off axis response. the reflection is more similar to the direct sound because the walls are flat, the room is pretty symmetrical, etc.

9. In a car, the walls aren't flat and the speakers are mounted really close to the reflecting surfaces. Because of this, we can't _easily_ use the side windows to create phantom images. You'll hear it once in a while, depending on the song, and your EQ. Mostly what happens in a car is simple image spread and comb filtering due to reflections. 

10. If we put tweeters in the a-pillars, low frequencies bounce off of everything. As frequency response rises, the reflections will gradually be confined to surfaces forward of the tweeter--including the door glass. low frequencies will also bounce off the door glass AND the windshield. If we put mids and tweeters in the a-pillars, the same thing happens at lower and lower frequencies. This means that the reflections from the dash, windshield, and door glass all have different frequency response and can't be equalized to be the same. Sometimes the image will wander outside the location of the speakers. Then, we play that track repeatedly for everyone and claim to have great stage width. Play another track and the width collapses to well inside the pillars. We don't play that track for demos, right? This depends on the frequency response of our reflections and how we have time alignment set. So...

11. When we put speakers in the a-pillars, we hang them in front of a bunch of reflecting surfaces which will all turn into additional radiators with varying frequency responses. 

12. If we make ONE of those surfaces the baffle, then we eliminate it as a troublesome reflecting surface (depending on your perspective and whether you want to demo the same track all the time) because the reflection from the baffle happens at almost exactly the same time as the direct sound. 

13. If the speakers are in the doors, we don't have the high-frequency reflection from the door glass to contend with because it's essentially the baffle and the reflection reaches out ears at almost the same time as the direct sound. We still have to contend with the reflection from the windshield, but it's farther away--and remember, sound is attenuated by 6dB for every doubling of distance. For the sum of two sounds, the louder one dominates, right? If the reflection is attenuated, its frequency response has less influence on the sum. 

14. If we use the speakers in the range where they have wide dispersion, we don't have to aim them because sound is radiated into all angles. makes it easy to mount them in the doors. We can aim the tweeter easily because it's small to preserve high frequencies in the direct sound. Low frequencies will bounce off the glass nearby, but the door glass is close and we don't hear phase easily at high frequencies.

15. If we put the speakers in the doors, we have to use time alignment and EQ to get a phantom center and it'll only work in one seat. If we need two seats, then equal pathlngths are the way to go--or a center channel with the right processing.

So, the short story is that by putting speakers in the doors, we simplify the job of installing them, eliminate the most troublesome reflection from the door glass and minimize the influence of the reflection from the windshield. 

Putting a center channel in the top of the dash is a little different. We hope for the best in terms of the big suckout from the combination of the direct and reflected sound from the windsheild and we use the windsheild to provide a phantom image that's a little higher than the location of the speaker in the dash. This works great, but it does provide some image spread for the center because the sound of the center speaker will reflect off the WHOLE windshield and the door glass.


----------



## rain27

Andy,

Is there any way to use the MS-8 with a 3-way passive crossover with midrange and tweeter up around the dash and midbass in the doors??


----------



## ET328

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I use a room synthesis algorithm, though, so all of the mewling over "lack of space between the instruments" doesn't matter to me--my car makes that space.


I wonder why do you use room synthesis? Do you think that a system like MS-8 sounds too mono-like and needs a little space and stereo-image expansion?


----------



## 14642

rain27 said:


> Andy,
> 
> Is there any way to use the MS-8 with a 3-way passive crossover with midrange and tweeter up around the dash and midbass in the doors??


Of course, choose 1-way for the front. Yes, it will work. My lengthy explanation isn't designed to say that it's the only thing that works, but that it's the easiest way to get the best sound (no matter the processor).


----------



## 14642

ET328 said:


> I wonder why do you use room synthesis? Do you think that a system like MS-8 sounds too mono-like and needs a little space and stereo-image expansion?


Because I use my car for R&D and we're evaluating it for future products. It's just better sounding ketchup.


----------



## rain27

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Of course, choose 1-way for the front. Yes, it will work. My lengthy explanation isn't designed to say that it's the only thing that works, but that it's the easiest way to get the best sound (no matter the processor).


No need to cover tweeters during sweeps or anything? And just to confirm, I won't be biwiring or biamping (not sure if this makes a difference).


----------



## eficalibrator

Perhaps I missed it in the eleventy billion posts here, but I'm not seeing a concise method of setting outboard amplifier gains. The manual doesn't seem to cover it either, implying that all of the gain matching is done digitally in the MS-8.

Would it be best to set amplifier gains in the usual manner (measure Vrms with a test tone) with the MS-8 out of the loop prior to doing the system calibration? I know that the mids will certainly be a little more power hungry than the tweeter in general, so it only makes sense that those amplifier channels would have the gain a little higher, right? I'd also want to make sure that I'm really getting full use of my subwoofer channel's power.


----------



## acidbass303

Beautiful explanataion mr Andy...
Speakers going into doors definitely...

One thing though, do we have to flush mount the tweeters to get the baffle effect ( making them 90 degrees of axis) or can the provided 30 degress pods be used for surface mounting on door? ( which i prefer for my tweeters)


----------



## 14642

eficalibrator said:


> Perhaps I missed it in the eleventy billion posts here, but I'm not seeing a concise method of setting outboard amplifier gains. The manual doesn't seem to cover it either, implying that all of the gain matching is done digitally in the MS-8.
> 
> Would it be best to set amplifier gains in the usual manner (measure Vrms with a test tone) with the MS-8 out of the loop prior to doing the system calibration? I know that the mids will certainly be a little more power hungry than the tweeter in general, so it only makes sense that those amplifier channels would have the gain a little higher, right? I'd also want to make sure that I'm really getting full use of my subwoofer channel's power.


 
Sorry. Set all amplifier input sensitivity controls at about 2V and be sure to start the sweeps with MS-8's volume control at about -30 to -35. That's not in the manual...oops.


----------



## 14642

acidbass303 said:


> Beautiful explanataion mr Andy...
> Speakers going into doors definitely...
> 
> One thing though, do we have to flush mount the tweeters to get the baffle effect ( making them 90 degrees of axis) or can the provided 30 degress pods be used for surface mounting on door? ( which i prefer for my tweeters)


Aim the tweeters so that both listeners are in a +/- 35-degree window and your're golden. Obviously, the door isn't a perfectly flat baffle, but that's OK.


----------



## hallsc

Hey Andy,

I can't remember if this has been asked and addressed yet, but in reference to you saying to put the center channel in the dash facing up into the windshield, would facing directly forward work?

I have attached a picture of my dash. I am using an aftermarket head unit, and the display up top is now dead due to no stock stereo. If I pulled the display unit out and got fancy with fiberglassing the hole that was left, I could fit either a 4-inch full-range speaker or a 4-inch mid/tweeter combo facing forward. This would prevent me having to tear up the dash. Would the speaker facing forward like this work? I would assume so, since most HT center channels simply face forward, or am I missing something. If this is a dumb question I apologize, but after hearing so many times about the center channel facing the windshield I just wanted to make sure that I am the (lucky?) exception to being forced to do this. Thanks, Andy


----------



## t3sn4f2

hallsc said:


> Hey Andy,
> 
> I can't remember if this has been asked and addressed yet, but in reference to you saying to put the center channel in the dash facing up into the windshield, would facing directly forward work?
> 
> I have attached a picture of my dash. I am using an aftermarket head unit, and the display up top is now dead due to no stock stereo. If I pulled the display unit out and got fancy with fiberglassing the hole that was left, I could fit either a 4-inch full-range speaker or a 4-inch mid/tweeter combo facing forward. This would prevent me having to tear up the dash. Would the speaker facing forward like this work? I would assume so, since most HT center channels simply face forward, or am I missing something. If this is a dumb question I apologize, but after hearing so many times about the center channel facing the windshield I just wanted to make sure that I am the (lucky?) exception to being forced to do this. Thanks, Andy





t3sn4f2 said:


> Andy, would you use the MS-8 with this center channel. Mounted slightly off axis inside the center display hole on the dash in the following car (in a compatible custom enclosure).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If so, would it be ok to run it with the passive crossover it comes with or go fully active running the 2 3" woofers in parallel up to 500Hz or so and then 4" mid and coax tweeter off their own amp channel crossed around 3KHz (or whatever works best).
> 
> The total system would be the above 3 channel center plus L/R 2 way (woofers in the lower door and tweeters in the sails). Along with the rear sub for the remaining channel.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sure. that would work. If it were my car, I'd move the display to the front of that hole and mount the center in the top firing into the windsheild. In either case, I think that's an unnecessary number of drivers. Go with the largest single midrange you can find and add a tweeter (half of a 5" component system would be great). If that's not an option, use a 4" or a pair of mids and a tweeter. If you have a bunch of extra amp channels and an external crossover, biamping is OK. If you don't, I suggest a passive for the center.
> 
> I find that the best use of MS-8's 8 channels in a car is:
> 
> Biamped front (4)
> Center (1)
> Sub (1)
> Sides and/or Rears (2)
> 
> If you do sides and rears, run them in parallel.
> 
> If you use a 2-way speaker system in front, use separate channels for mids and tweeters. If you do a 3-way, use separate channels for the midbass and a pair of channels for mids and tweeters, together with their own crossovers (passive or active). If you do that, cross the midbass as high as you can stand--1k works well so long as they are 6" or smaller. Our ears aren't good at determining the location of sounds from 1k to 3k, and above 3k, level is the most important criterion. This arrangement provides accurate delay measurements and settings for the midbass and will fix the mids and tweeters using EQ.
> 
> Since you'll be using a center speaker, the steering and that speaker will reduce the importance of time alignment for frequencies above the center-channel's cutoff and TA will fix it for lower frequencies using the midbass in the doors.


.....


----------



## 14642

hallsc said:


> Hey Andy,
> 
> I can't remember if this has been asked and addressed yet, but in reference to you saying to put the center channel in the dash facing up into the windshield, would facing directly forward work?
> 
> I have attached a picture of my dash. I am using an aftermarket head unit, and the display up top is now dead due to no stock stereo. If I pulled the display unit out and got fancy with fiberglassing the hole that was left, I could fit either a 4-inch full-range speaker or a 4-inch mid/tweeter combo facing forward. This would prevent me having to tear up the dash. Would the speaker facing forward like this work? I would assume so, since most HT center channels simply face forward, or am I missing something. If this is a dumb question I apologize, but after hearing so many times about the center channel facing the windshield I just wanted to make sure that I am the (lucky?) exception to being forced to do this. Thanks, Andy


Sure. that'll work. I'd cut the top, use that space as an enclosure and put a fake grille on the front, but I like cutting up dashboards. Top is better (for sound), front is fine (and will be easier and won't make you cringe when you take a big hot-knofe to the top of the dash).


----------



## 14642

Wow, I actually gave consistent answers--didn't read the second post intil I had answered the first one. 

Thanks T3


----------



## Se7en

Andy,

This is sort of off topic but do you have any idea when replacement remotes will be available from JBL? I've called customer service a few times and they haven't been able to give me any information.

Sadly, my remote went missing after a car wash and my MS8 is currently useless as I turned my volume down before hand to discourage anyone from playing the system. 

Thanks for any help/insight you can provide.


----------



## JJAZ

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sorry. Set all amplifier input sensitivity controls at about 2V and be sure to start the sweeps with MS-8's volume control at about -30 to -35. That's not in the manual...oops.


I do not understand the above.

Setting the amplifier input sensitivity to 2V tells you absolutely nothing about the output level of the speaker.

Consider this:
12m midrange of a PG Xenon 200.4 (200W RMS)
Peerless 8" SLS Midwoofer of a PG Xenon 200.4 (200W RMS)
4x12" Peerless XLS wired as a 1 Ohm load of a Celestra DA2K (2100W RMS)

If the input gains on all amps are set at 2V, the resulting output will be VERY different.

The 12m midrange is roughly 4dB more sensitive than the 8" SLS, and the amplifier gain is the same.

The 4x12" subwoofers are a lot more sensitive than the 12m when you have 4 wired in parallel. Add to that the higher voltage gain from the amp (roughly 5dB more voltage gain).

I do not see how it will work just setting the input sensitivity for all amps at 2V.

Rather I would think a level matching of some sort is what is needed. F.x. Set the midrange channels at 2V and match the midwoofer and subwoofers output level to that of the midrange.

Andy, let me know your thoughts on this, something isn't adding up by just seeting all gains at 2V. Imagine if I used horns for my midrange, then the differences would be even worse because of the higher sensitivity of the horns.


----------



## subiemax

Set the gains to 2v and the ms8 will do the rest. It will adjust the level sent to each channel. Lots of people will turn Their sub amp up to their liking after.


----------



## SouthSyde

Se7en said:


> Andy,
> 
> This is sort of off topic but do you have any idea when replacement remotes will be available from JBL? I've called customer service a few times and they haven't been able to give me any information.
> 
> Sadly, my remote went missing after a car wash and my MS8 is currently useless as I turned my volume down before hand to discourage anyone from playing the system.
> 
> Thanks for any help/insight you can provide.


hey gabe, there are no shops in town that sells the ms8, and you could borrow their remote control to temporary turn up the volume so you could have tunes until you get a replacement remote?

if you come to houston id find you a remote to turn up the volume


----------



## JJAZ

subiemax said:


> Set the gains to 2v and the ms8 will do the rest. It will adjust the level sent to each channel. Lots of people will turn Their sub amp up to their liking after.


You missed my point. The problem is the exact opposite.

Since it is well known that the MS-8 has big problems with saturation of the input (be it microphone, pre-amp or ADC), we have the gain issue.

But if there is a big difference on the total gain of the channels (from amplifier input to acoustical output of the speakers), just setting all gains to 2V will not solve the problem.

In the case I described the gain for the midranges and midwoofers, is probably okay. But the subwoofers will have a much higher total gain if the amp is set to 2V sensitivity, and then the saturation problem is back.

The MS-8 really needs to use separate calibration levels for each channel, or we need a procedure for how to set the gains manually to get in the right ballpark before the MS-8 start it calibration.


----------



## mxl16

JJAZ said:


> You missed my point. The problem is the exact opposite.
> 
> Since it is well known that the MS-8 has big problems with saturation of the input (be it microphone, pre-amp or ADC), we have the gain issue.
> 
> But if there is a big difference on the total gain of the channels (from amplifier input to acoustical output of the speakers), just setting all gains to 2V will not solve the problem.
> 
> In the case I described the gain for the midranges and midwoofers, is probably okay. But the subwoofers will have a much higher total gain if the amp is set to 2V sensitivity, and then the saturation problem is back.
> 
> The MS-8 really needs to use separate calibration levels for each channel, or we need a procedure for how to set the gains manually to get in the right ballpark before the MS-8 start it calibration.


I agree with this. I was never able to get my MS-8 and my amp gains to "play nicely".


----------



## 14642

JJAZ said:


> I do not understand the above.
> 
> Setting the amplifier input sensitivity to 2V tells you absolutely nothing about the output level of the speaker.
> 
> Consider this:
> 12m midrange of a PG Xenon 200.4 (200W RMS)
> Peerless 8" SLS Midwoofer of a PG Xenon 200.4 (200W RMS)
> 4x12" Peerless XLS wired as a 1 Ohm load of a Celestra DA2K (2100W RMS)
> 
> If the input gains on all amps are set at 2V, the resulting output will be VERY different.
> 
> The 12m midrange is roughly 4dB more sensitive than the 8" SLS, and the amplifier gain is the same.
> 
> The 4x12" subwoofers are a lot more sensitive than the 12m when you have 4 wired in parallel. Add to that the higher voltage gain from the amp (roughly 5dB more voltage gain).
> 
> I do not see how it will work just setting the input sensitivity for all amps at 2V.
> 
> Rather I would think a level matching of some sort is what is needed. F.x. Set the midrange channels at 2V and match the midwoofer and subwoofers output level to that of the midrange.
> 
> Andy, let me know your thoughts on this, something isn't adding up by just seeting all gains at 2V. Imagine if I used horns for my midrange, then the differences would be even worse because of the higher sensitivity of the horns.


Level matching is certainly better, but MS-8 will do most of that, so long as things are pretty close. I suggest 2V because that pretty closely matches the output of the MS-8 and will at least get you in the ballpark. Since you have 4 12" woofers and 2100 watts on the bass, I'd suggest turning the bass down even more and then turning it back up after calibration. 

Ultimately, the whole exercise is an effort to level match AND equalize. If you're going to level match, use octave spacing on whatever RTS you're going to use, so you don't match to a huge peak or a giant dip. 

If you're going to level match, then sat the mid channels at 2V and adjust the other amps so the output is similar. 

I'm just trying to make it easy.


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## bmxscion

I have a question about hooking up my speakers to my amps...I am going to install my ms-8 today. I have a 2-way set up with a passive crossover connected bridged across 2 ch of my 4 ch amp. should i remove the passive crossover and connect the tweeters to a separate channel and the mids to another? or just leave it as it is? I have a set of polk db 351's in the dash on the other 2 channels of the amp, which will stay the same. 

Thanks.


----------



## JJAZ

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Level matching is certainly better, but MS-8 will do most of that, so long as things are pretty close. I suggest 2V because that pretty closely matches the output of the MS-8 and will at least get you in the ballpark. Since you have 4 12" woofers and 2100 watts on the bass, I'd suggest turning the bass down even more and then turning it back up after calibration.
> 
> Ultimately, the whole exercise is an effort to level match AND equalize. If you're going to level match, use octave spacing on whatever RTS you're going to use, so you don't match to a huge peak or a giant dip.
> 
> If you're going to level match, then sat the mid channels at 2V and adjust the other amps so the output is similar.
> 
> I'm just trying to make it easy.


2V amplifier sensitivity makes sense, indeed, because it matches the output of the MS-8. My worries are because I read again and again and again that the MS-8 has big issues with saturation of its microphone input path.

My problems will probably never be an issue in an OEM install (which I believe is ultimately what the MS-8 was designed for), but for those of us with "strange" installs it creates a lot of trouble.

A fairly easy solution, that should be fast to implement in the firmware, would be to allow the user to calibrate the channels separately. Then we could calibrate the channels with different levels on the MS-8 volume control depending on the channels, if we feel it is needed. This at least would be easier than writing a new level-matching-calibration-algorithm (which I think would be fairly easy as well).

Easy it should be, especially considering the majority of the MS-8 market is not us high-end-freak-geeks :-D

Thanks a lot for the reply. Please push some of your karma towards the danish division of harman, they have been living a very quiet life for the last +10 years. Back in the old days I knew some of the harman people in Denmark personally, and their spirit was much like yours, but they have all moved on to other hifi-companies.


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## JJAZ

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Ultimately, the whole exercise is an effort to level match AND equalize. If you're going to level match, use octave spacing on whatever RTS you're going to use, so you don't match to a huge peak or a giant dip.


With regards to measurement equipment / RTA / level matching.

I am using SoundCheck on my laptop (with a VXpocket soundcard and a B&K microphone), so setting up the RTA to whatever makes sense is not a problem


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## 14642

mxl16 said:


> I agree with this. I was never able to get my MS-8 and my amp gains to "play nicely".


 
So here's the deal--The target curve includes 9dB more bass than midrange, and the high frequencies roll off a bit--20k is -6dB when compared to 1k. 

If you're building a system and you're using regular car audio speakers and a sub, then all of this sensitivity matching isn't all that necessary, considering the amplifier power that you're likely to use. That's why I say set the input sensitivity to 2V. 

If you're building a system with drivers of wildly varying sensitivity and are using monster amounts of power on part of your system and not on the others, then you'll have to do a little work to get within the 40-or-so-dB window that MS-8 uses for EQ. MS-8 tries to level match using several analysis bands before it applies EQ. It checks the bass between 50 and 80Hz. If you cross your sub over at 40Hz and it's a 15" in a .5 cubic foot box, you're going to have problems. MS-8 sweeps a wider band of frequencies than what you choose as a crossover--it has to. 

In the example above, the woofer will have MUCH greater output above 40Hz than below. When MS-8 sweeps, it will set the bass level according to the 50-80Hz output, then it will try to EQ the bass back in. Is this bad algorithm design? I don't think so. Crossing a sub over at 40 Hz is ridiculous, unless you've designed the box above. In that case, the problem isn't that MS-8 is bad, the problem is that the subwoofer design seriously unconventional--you'd be using the sub only in the "stop-band". For a sub designed this way, the only valid reason to do it is because you have no space for woofers and have plenty of money to throw away on a seriously inefficient design. A 10" the same box would probably be a better choice. 

If you use horns and compression drivers because you're into pattern control, then you'll have to deal with the fact that they're proably 20dB more effficient than the [email protected],1M midbass that are likely to go along with them--and the fact that frequencies above 10k are likely to be almost missing. If you apply 100W to the horns and 100W to the midbass, then you're going to chew up EQ and gain matching just to get the horns and midbass to similar levels. 

So...the moral of the story here is...

MS-8 was designed to make it very easy to get a great sounding system if you build a system in a pretty conventional way. We've included lots of "edge cases", too. There are 48 possible speaker systems supported and in order for it to do it's thing, the output of the speakers needs to be within about 30dB. If you use readily available car audio gear and don't include a monster sub system, then the 2V suggestion works great, so long as the sweeps are at the right level. The window is big--turn the volume down. If you've built a system that includes drivers and amps that make the acoustic output of the various bands well outside this window, then you'll need to make some adjustments. 

If you're using a conventional signal processor, then you'll be able to more easily get things in order with an unconventional system before doing any equalizing. MS-8 doesn't pass signal until you run setup, so it's helpful to ballpark the settings the first time, but before insisting that my suggestion can't work, you might using it as a baseline. 

This saturation problem isn't unique to MS-8, it's just better hidden with regular RTAs. When you saturate the input (mic or preamp) of a regular RTA, the data you view gets compressed and the curve looks nicer when you make frequency response measurements. This is a convenient little lie and one that few novice tuners are likely to question. However, in my experience this is a contributing factor in the "flat response don't sound no good" view. 

If you try to set time alignment by making impulse response measurements and you saturate the input, you won't be able to accurately pick the peak--and MS-8 can't either. The difference is that with the manual method, you'll be able to enter the wrong number or make a measurement with a ruler and enter that number and move on. In this case, MS-8 just doesn't set the value or doesn't EQ. Is that worse? Hmmm...depends on your view. I wish MS-8 would flash a big red light and say, through the speakers, "Dude...unconventional system detected. Please turn down the bass" (or something to that effect), but it doesn't. That's why I sit here in front of my computer typing into this forum all the time. 

Gary and I used to have to show up two days before an IASCA contest with a suitcase full of gear to tune Team JBL cars so our guys' cars would sound good. Now, Gary and I show up the day before the show eat a nice dinner, make a few adjustments with MS-8's remote and the results are usually better. 

All of this boils down to one very simple statement--MS-8 uses a different method of tuning a car and has its own constraints. Once you accept them and learn to work within them, the process is simpler and will probably yield better EQ results, unless you're a master tweaker and have serious analysis tools and processing capability and the time to spend making a thousand adjustments.


----------



## Gary Mac

What is the "right level" for the sweeps? The statement in your previous post "set mids at 2v and level match other stuff is the 1st time I've heard that. It makes sense and I will try it. If you could give us the correct level for the sweeps or the output diagnostics in the mids it would be easy to figure out the rest


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## quality_sound

He's said it many, many, many, many times. -40dB on the MS-8 display.


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## kaigoss69

quality_sound said:


> He's said it many, many, many, many times. -40dB on the MS-8 display.


I think he was asking about about sweep volume level, not remote volume setting. I also have not seen a clear answer to that question...i.e. set the MS-8 volume and adjust amp gains such that the sweeps are all at XX dB volume.


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## Gary Mac

Yes - referring to sweep optimum sweep level, I've been waiting for that for awhile


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## thehatedguy

I do mine at a pretty low level. You could talk over the sub sweep when it does it.


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## quality_sound

They should be the same setting. Since the MS-8 generates the sweeps the only volume control that applies is the MS-8 volume, hence the -40dB setting.


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## kaigoss69

quality_sound said:


> They should be the same setting. Since the MS-8 generates the sweeps the only volume control that applies is the MS-8 volume, hence the -40dB setting.


So differences between amp gains, speaker sensitivities and impedances don't matter (to you)?


----------



## Se7en

SouthSyde said:


> hey gabe, there are no shops in town that sells the ms8, and you could borrow their remote control to temporary turn up the volume so you could have tunes until you get a replacement remote?
> 
> if you come to houston id find you a remote to turn up the volume


Thanks for the offer. I could always go the route of an aftermarket universal remote to "get by", but would much rather have the factory remote so that the system is complete. It just seems very odd to me that it is not possible to get a replacement from JBL, especially considering that this is the ONLY control method for these units.

Andy, do you have any info? Thanks!


----------



## Jprice2708

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sorry. Set all amplifier input sensitivity controls at about 2V and be sure to start the sweeps with MS-8's volume control at about -30 to -35. That's not in the manual...oops.


Sorry for the stupid question, but how do I set the amplifier sensitivity controls? Do I measure the speaker output on the amp with a DMM? I searched but couldn't find the answer.

Also I have a 2000w rms amp running my 600w sub, and was just planning on turning the sub gains right down, as atm I have 50w per side to the tweeters and 100w per side to the midbass. If I just set everything at 2v will the sub be overpowering everything?

The reason I ask all of this is because I tried level matching my speakers by ear, then running the setup on my MS8 (and yes the sweeps were very quiet - I tried -40db through to -20db). Everything sounds great before I apply processing, but as soon as I turn processing to active it sounds atrocious - way too much sub, literally no midbass, and tweeters sound the same as before. I have tried fiddling with gain settings but I'm not having any luck and starting to pull my hair out a bit...


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## yuri

i find -40 sweeps work best for me ,,,


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## acidbass303

Jprice2708 said:


> Sorry for the stupid question, but how do I set the amplifier sensitivity controls? Do I measure the speaker output on the amp with a DMM? I searched but couldn't find the answer.
> 
> Also I have a 2000w rms amp running my 600w sub, and was just planning on turning the sub gains right down, as atm I have 50w per side to the tweeters and 100w per side to the midbass. If I just set everything at 2v will the sub be overpowering everything?
> 
> The reason I ask all of this is because I tried level matching my speakers by ear, then running the setup on my MS8 (and yes the sweeps were very quiet - I tried -40db through to -20db). Everything sounds great before I apply processing, but as soon as I turn processing to active it sounds atrocious - *way too much sub, literally no midbass,* and tweeters sound the same as before. I have tried fiddling with gain settings but I'm not having any luck and starting to pull my hair out a bit...


i too was having this problem in the past. here is what i did that worked, and works all the time..

i gather that you have your sub gain all the way down (if not then do so), turn the gain on your midbass a little higher, try the acoustic calibration at -40 at first, if its good then leave it be, if not, try -50 db volume. Basically i think that the MS8 is more sensitive and less forgiving to the louder sub sweeps than the midbass and tweets. i remember Mr Andy saying somewhere that if the sub sweep feels too quiet then it is probably at the right level, and thats exactly true, at the right level, the sub sweep does feel lot quieter than other speakers' sweeps. as a matter of fact, as Mr Andy said, you should not be able to "feel" the sub at all, just "hear" its sweep. so just keep lowering the calibration volume after -40 in -5 or -10 decrements untill you get it right. You might have to increase your midbass gain a little after -40db volume so that their sweeps dont get too quiet. Trust me, it takes a little thinking and some work to be done, but once you are there, it sounds beautiful... have best SQ ever in my car to date now.
may be the method i use is not the way it is meant to be done,, but it sure does work for me.


----------



## 14642

You can set the amplifier sensitivity to about 2V by looking at the scale on the potentiometer. If it reads Min/Max, then look in the manual to see what the range of input sensitivity is, then ballpark it. Just get close. No need for a scope and all of that nonsense.


----------



## 14642

Acidbass,
Thanks for the solution. This has been my experience too.


----------



## eficalibrator

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> You can set the amplifier sensitivity to about 2V by looking at the scale on the potentiometer. If it reads Min/Max, then look in the manual to see what the range of input sensitivity is, then ballpark it. Just get close. No need for a scope and all of that nonsense.


My trick is the the low (line level) inputs on my JL HD900/5 run 200mv-2v, so setting it to 2v would be all the way up. My instinct tells me this probably isn't right. Using the high (speaker level) input range, I have 800mv-8v where I could theoretically find "about 2v".

I guess the real question is "what am I giving up if I just the gains closer to the middle of the low (line level) range prior to running the calibration?" If you're intentionally running the sweeps at low volume, are you really giving up anything other than max volume headroom with a different amplifier gain? If you're going to turn the sub channel gain up after the calibration anyway, are you really losing much here? I have an RTA and the ability to shift the target curve later anyway, right?

As an engineer, I like acidbass' suggestion of just setting the gains the conventional way based on output voltage with a DMM prior to running the setup.


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## t3sn4f2

2 volts is all the way down not up.


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## Jprice2708

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> You can set the amplifier sensitivity to about 2V by looking at the scale on the potentiometer. If it reads Min/Max, then look in the manual to see what the range of input sensitivity is, then ballpark it. Just get close. No need for a scope and all of that nonsense.


God I feel like a noob lol. Now to show I really am - is setting gains and setting input sensitivity the same thing?

Also the manual for my Amp says the sensitivity ranges from 200mv to 4.0v (1.0v at center detent), and just past the center detent going clockwise reads 0.5v, so is setting the sensitivity at 2.0v making the gain lower than halfway? Speaking of which, my sub amp has 0.2v-5v input sensitivity, but no markings at all, just min and max on the gain adjustment - is 5v the lowest volume setting or the highest? (based on what I see on my other amp it's the lowest volume, but that is exactly the opposite of what I would have guessed)

I tried the setup at -50db with all gains down at min, then tried at 1/4 gain, then half, then 3/4. I then tried -45db at each gain setting, and worked my way through to -30db, going in 5db increments. The best sound was at -40db, but it still sounded terrible. The best result I have had so far was the highs sounded much clearer than normal, but no midbass at all and the sub was still too loud (but not quite as much as before). I adjusted the settings on the MS8 and got it sounding sort of decent, but when I disabled processing it still sounded better (except the highs which sounded clearer with processing on).

To make life more fun one of my two amps died right at the end of calibrating, so I'm back to running 50w per channel =\ One of those weeks I guess....


Addition: I am assuming that input sensitivity is set by adjusting the gains, and that the higher voltage is the lower volume (for now, until corrected otherwise). IF those assumptions are correct, then I have set my sensitivity to 2v on both amps. I re-ran my sweeps at -40db, and it still sounds like a$$... Only difference is now even the highs sound worse with processing turned on.


----------



## MattyKHZ

Have posted on here a few times and finally got to hear a MS8 this weekend so think I am keeping it for my Mini Install. I got to hear in 3 way active and sub in addition to Logic 7 including centre. I liked both and really liked what Logic 7 brings to the experience. No substitue for listening to it 1st hand.

My question specifically relates to the use of the Morel Supremo 6 and Picollo Tweeter in a MS8 set up. I have the CDM54 to make it 3 way Active if needed but should I stick with 2 Way as the Supremo is designed?

Mini OEM HU will feed the MS8 and that will feed 2 x Denon DCA70BL amps. So have approx 120W per channel and 8 channels of amplification.

Being a Mini I have no real boot space for sub so need a boot. I can go 2 way Active perhaps using 1 amp to feed higher power to the Supremo 6 hoping this will provide as low as I need without a sub, 2 channels of thr other amp to the Picollos and my last 2 channels to rear Morel Tempo 6x9 in standard rear lcoation for Logic 7 use.

If I cannot get low enough from the Supremo I would then have to substitue the Morel 6x9 with something like the CDT HD690CF Sub. This would mean no rear speaker for Logic 7 use.

And that is the dilema. I either end up with Active Front End (2 way or 3 way) and rear Logic 7 speakers or same front end and 6x9 subs so no rear speakers for Logic 7.

As more people in the US have experience with the MS8 and Supremos in either 2 or 3 way format I was hoping I could get some feedback and advice.

Kind Regards,

Matt.


----------



## 14642

Matty,
Before you go too far down this road, here are a few tips. 

When you use the rears for L7, the only signals that are steered to those speakers are ambient sounds. No bass will appear in the rear. If you have no room for a sub in the back (too bad I threw away the tiny fiberglass box I built for my old mini--I could have shipped it to you) then use the 6x9"s as subs. I think those speakers come with a passive crossover--put it in the closet.

Then, connect the tweeter (use a 20uF cap as protection--this is just good system design) as "rear" and set the crossover to something like 1kHz 24dB/octave. That'll give you subs and enough rear to provide some ambience. 

Or, mount a 3" coaxial in the C-Pillar for rear. That's what I did in my old Mini and it worked great.


----------



## yuri

andy ,, below is a door card like matt has in his mini . 
you can see it has space for a ome mid above the midbass ..
the is also ome A pillars with space for a tweeter ..

would you suggest this is a good place to fit a mid ?
and also would you think it would be better if fit the tweeter above the mid in the door or use the A pillars for the tweeters ..


----------



## MattyKHZ

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Matty,
> Before you go too far down this road, here are a few tips.
> 
> When you use the rears for L7, the only signals that are steered to those speakers are ambient sounds. No bass will appear in the rear. If you have no room for a sub in the back (too bad I threw away the tiny fiberglass box I built for my old mini--I could have shipped it to you) then use the 6x9"s as subs. I think those speakers come with a passive crossover--put it in the closet.
> 
> Then, connect the tweeter (use a 20uF cap as protection--this is just good system design) as "rear" and set the crossover to something like 1kHz 24dB/octave. That'll give you subs and enough rear to provide some ambience.
> 
> Or, mount a 3" coaxial in the C-Pillar for rear. That's what I did in my old Mini and it worked great.


Thanks Andy,

Not sure what you mean (confused ) about connecting a tweeter as rear. Is this instead of the 6x9 for rear use or in addition to?

I was thinking 2 way or 3 way in front. If I go 2 way I have the Morel CDM54 I could use in perhaps the rear pillars for rear fill if I need to use a 6x9 sub which looks like it would be the CDT HD690CF.

Hopefully the Morel Supremo 6 will be suitable in the bass department and leave me with my Morel 6x9 for rear Logic 7 use.

If I can get away with MS8 amp for running rear channels for Logic 7 either via the Tempo 6x9 or CDM54 that leaves me more from my Denon amps for the Morel Active Front/6x9 sub if needed. Shame you can't bridge the MS8 amp channels for more output if you are using just to feed 2 channels.


----------



## yuri

matt , 
in theory if you run 3way you should be able to play the 6.5 lower and harder than a 2 way setup .


----------



## 14642

yuri said:


> matt ,
> in theory if you run 3way you should be able to play the 6.5 lower and harder than a 2 way setup .


I'd say this is a secondary benefit, if it's a benefit. The real benefit in a 3-way 6" setup is that you can use the 6" in the range where the dispersion is wide. Better sound in door-mounted setups. You need something bigger than a 6" for bass.


----------



## quality_sound

kaigoss69 said:


> So differences between amp gains, speaker sensitivities and impedances don't matter (to you)?


As Andy has said more times than I can count, the MS-8 only needs the speakers to be within a 40dB window. unless you have M-A-S-S-I-V-E power or efficiency differences between your drivers matching your gains should be enough. 

I like to level match, but that's me. It doesn't NEED to be done.

All of that however, is moot since it has nothing to do with the question that was asked.


----------



## asat11

Jprice2708 said:


> I tried the setup at -50db with all gains down at min, then tried at 1/4 gain, then half, then 3/4. I then tried -45db at each gain setting, and worked my way through to -30db, going in 5db increments. The best sound was at -40db, but it still sounded terrible. The best result I have had so far was the highs sounded much clearer than normal, but no midbass at all and the sub was still too loud (but not quite as much as before). I adjusted the settings on the MS8 and got it sounding sort of decent, but when I disabled processing it still sounded better (except the highs which sounded clearer with processing on).


I am having the same issue...... I have tried the sweeps all the way down to -60 and worked up to -30 in 5db increments ---- same, same, same....... some CD's sound better than others (seems like the more CD's I listen to the more I am not liking the outcome, there are only a few that sound good) but overall there is way too much high's, no midbass, and way too much subs........ I even tried logic 7 off but then I have the rears way too loud - I fade forward but still same result too much highs, no midbass, way too much sub ............ can anyone address this issue? I feel like I am heading in the right direction but I just can't get THERE.........


----------



## subwoofery

asat11 said:


> I am having the same issue...... I have tried the sweeps all the way down to -60 and worked up to -30 in 5db increments ---- same, same, same....... some CD's sound better than others (seems like the more CD's I listen to the more I am not liking the outcome, there are only a few that sound good) but overall there is way too much high's, no midbass, and way too much subs........ I even tried logic 7 off but then I have the rears way too loud - I fade forward but still same result too much highs, no midbass, way too much sub ............ can anyone address this issue? I feel like I am heading in the right direction but I just can't get THERE.........


Amp gains set to 2V? 

Kelvin


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> When MS-8 sweeps, it will set the bass level according to the 50-80Hz output, then it will try to EQ the bass back in. Is this bad algorithm design? I don't think so. Crossing a sub over at 40 Hz is ridiculous, unless you've designed the box above.


Andy, just to verify: What if the midbass drivers are capable of playing down to 45Hz, and I wish to utilize the midbasses to their full potential, are you saying that it would still be better to cross the sub higher and how high would you recommend?



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If you apply 100W to the horns and 100W to the midbass, then you're going to chew up EQ and gain matching just to get the horns and midbass to similar levels.


So if larger level differences between drivers "chew up EQ and gain matching", and I want the MS-8 to have plenty of "headroom" in both EQ and gain to do the best possible job with my system, then why would it not be of utmost importance to level match the amp channels manually BEFORE the MS-8 auto-tune? I mean the LAST thing I would want is for the processor to run out of steam, so to speak, and not be able to make the necessary corrections, just because the drivers are not properly level-matched.

Also, I may be totally of base here, but if you have a large level difference, say 40 dB, and the MS-8 has to lower the gain by the same amount, does that not reduce the overall output of the MS-8 and the S/N ratio?


----------



## mitchyz250f

kaigoss69 - Andy and the manual both recommend an 80 Hz crossover to the subs. I have 12" midbasses and cross them at 80 Hz.


----------



## asat11

subwoofery said:


> Amp gains set to 2V?
> 
> Kelvin


Yes, well thereabouts.... old RF Power 500a2's...... gain pot is variable between 250mv and 4v (and not marked) so I set 'em at 12 O'clock..... (or halfway between low and high)......


----------



## kaigoss69

mitchyz250f said:


> kaigoss69 - Andy and the manual both recommend an 80 Hz crossover to the subs. I have 12" midbasses and cross them at 80 Hz.


Wow, seems like such a waste! What slope?


----------



## 14642

In this case conventional "wisdom" is definitely wrong. 

Crossing midbass drivers over at 45Hz isn't necessary. You don't have to do that to get bass in the front and no driver (except for a subwoofer because there's no other way to do it) should play at their resonance frequency. Speakers make the most distortion there. Your subwoofer is much better at making 45Hz than your midbass driver is, no matter what.


----------



## asat11

acidbass303 said:


> i too was having this problem in the past. here is what i did that worked, and works all the time..
> 
> i gather that you have your sub gain all the way down (if not then do so), turn the gain on your midbass a little higher, try the acoustic calibration at -40 at first, if its good then leave it be, if not, try -50 db volume. Basically i think that the MS8 is more sensitive and less forgiving to the louder sub sweeps than the midbass and tweets. i remember Mr Andy saying somewhere that if the sub sweep feels too quiet then it is probably at the right level, and thats exactly true, at the right level, the sub sweep does feel lot quieter than other speakers' sweeps. as a matter of fact, as Mr Andy said, you should not be able to "feel" the sub at all, just "hear" its sweep. so just keep lowering the calibration volume after -40 in -5 or -10 decrements untill you get it right. You might have to increase your midbass gain a little after -40db volume so that their sweeps dont get too quiet. Trust me, it takes a little thinking and some work to be done, but once you are there, it sounds beautiful... have best SQ ever in my car to date now.
> may be the method i use is not the way it is meant to be done,, but it sure does work for me.


I have tried with all amp gains at 12 oclock - (@2v), with the sub amp all the way down, all the way up, boosting mids, mids all the way down, boosting mids and sub amp and then lowering sub amp after cal, I have done the sweeps with the volume so low you could not hardly hear them, "normal low volume" on the mids/rears and sub sweeps so low you barely hear them, and normal volume on mids with the sub sweeps so loud you could feel them,...... pretty much the same result..... highs are very bright, midbass is nonexistant, and subs are too dominant.....HELP


----------



## CraigE

I posted this a couple of weeks ago.
Below are the SPL levels (unweighted) that work well for me.
Maybe this will help some of you with an SPL meter.
I would like to get the sub sweeps lower, but the final results are excellent.



CraigE said:


> I've set all amp gains to 2 volts with an O-scope, but the sub amp gain has to be set to minimum, or the sub sweeps are over 100 dB, and surely clipping the mics.
> 
> I used a measurement mic between the driver and passenger seats to measure MAX SPL LEVEL (unweighted) at minus 27, here are my results;
> 
> 1 - Diagnostic (pink noise)
> 
> 62-63 dB--- FL,FR,CTR,SL,SR
> 69 dB ------- Sub
> 
> ____________________________________________
> 
> 2 - Sweeps
> 
> 1st set ----- 66.3 dB
> 2nd set -----85.4 dB
> 3rd set ------85.2 dB
> 4th set ------85.3 dB
> 
> ______________________________________________
> 
> I think it's possible that the sub sweeps are exciting a panel slightly, but I haven't been able to locate it with a signal generator, even at higher volumes.
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------------------


----------



## kaigoss69

My Morel midbass drivers have an FS of 30Hz...


----------



## thehatedguy

And like a whopping 3mm of excursion.


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> And like a whopping 3mm of excursion.


lol 

Kelvin


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> My Morel midbass drivers have an FS of 30Hz...


Well...Try a higher crossover and see if you like it. If you hate it, then go back to doing what you're doing. MS-8 sweeps the bass much higer than the crossover anyway, so the only way this is going to be trouble in level setting is if your woofer is 20dB down at 45Hz. 

In any case, I'm much more concerned about ASAT's troubles. In the lab tomorrow...


----------



## BuickGN

Andy, what would cause the left side to be much quieter than the right side when you get to the output diagnostics screen? This seems to be a new development. Nothing has changed in regards to the amp or HU settings. 

I'm running a 3-way front and a center. The entire left side is too low, not just one driver. However, it sounds great on music in "driver" and "front" settings. On "passenger" it's terrible. The passenger side is MUCH louder than the driver's side and especially the mid. It may be as simple as doing another tune but I ran out of time.

Almost forgot, I used the setup disk with my stock HU and the signal was fine.

Thanks.


----------



## thehatedguy

Low Fs is nice, but if you have pretty limited displacement then you are pissing in the wind trying to use it that low with any sort of output.

Plus the MS-8 limits you to 50 hertz as the lowest you can go on it's XO between the sub and midbass.


----------



## 14642

BuickGN said:


> Andy, what would cause the left side to be much quieter than the right side when you get to the output diagnostics screen? This seems to be a new development. Nothing has changed in regards to the amp or HU settings.
> 
> I'm running a 3-way front and a center. The entire left side is too low, not just one driver. However, it sounds great on music in "driver" and "front" settings. On "passenger" it's terrible. The passenger side is MUCH louder than the driver's side and especially the mid. It may be as simple as doing another tune but I ran out of time.
> 
> Almost forgot, I used the setup disk with my stock HU and the signal was fine.
> 
> Thanks.


IF you've run setup and calibration a bunch of times, go to the system settings menu and select "reset factory default". That'll nuke everything in the memory and set the "out of box" bit back to "1". Then you can start over.


----------



## 14642

thehatedguy said:


> Low Fs is nice, but if you have pretty limited displacement then you are pissing in the wind trying to use it that low with any sort of output.
> 
> Plus the MS-8 limits you to 50 hertz as the lowest you can go on it's XO between the sub and midbass.


 
Yes, this is absolutely right. That speaker might be good in a vented box tuned to 40Hz, but not sealed or infinite baffle with a bunch of power.


----------



## bmxscion

Andy, I have an error which says to call tech support....NO DSP response keeps coming on. I just powered it up for the first time, and it lets me do a few selections on the menus and then it keeps resetting itself and flashing No DSP response. 

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Ben


----------



## kaigoss69

SNL called, they want their comedians back.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, this is absolutely right. That speaker might be good in a vented box tuned to 40Hz, but not sealed or infinite baffle with a bunch of power.


They are under the seats in my BMW. Sound freaking great, even without a sub, with a subsonic of 35Hz. I have NEVER got them to bottom out or even distort. The bass output is not earthshattering of course, but nice and tight with some good chest-thumping. 150W each from a JL HD600/4. The x-max is 4.25mm one way (not 3mm, smartasses ) and I am thinking about bridging the 600/4 to see how they sound then. My next challenge is to fit a set of Morel HCW10s down there, should be interesting! I have a 10W6 I bought used in VP Electricity's corner loaded trunk enclosure and I will see if I can get it to blend with the midbasses. So far though, sub-less sounds way better.


----------



## acidbass303

asat11 said:


> I have tried with all amp gains at 12 oclock - (@2v), with the sub amp all the way down, all the way up, boosting mids, mids all the way down, boosting mids and sub amp and then lowering sub amp after cal, I have done the sweeps with the volume so low you could not hardly hear them, "normal low volume" on the mids/rears and sub sweeps so low you barely hear them, and normal volume on mids with the sub sweeps so loud you could feel them,...... pretty much the same result..... highs are very bright, midbass is nonexistant, and subs are too dominant.....HELP


How is your imaging/staging? Is everything nicely centered around you? Something is clipping the mic during the 2nd, 3rd and 4th sweeps interefering with the EQing. 
What gear are you running? Is the sub enclosure done right? What crossover settings(crossover points and slopes) are you using? Please post these parameters and may be it will help the experts and users here to pinpoint your problem.

Why dont you try selecting none at the sub selection menu and try the calibration without a sub and see how your mids and tweets sound then? At least it will help to check if the sub is throwing the EQ off.

And just as Mr Andy said, try resetting the unit to factory settings and then try callibrating, perhaps that will be of help too.


Edit: and at least once try tuning with ALL the gains fully turned down.


----------



## kaigoss69

acidbass303 said:


> Why dont you try selecting none at the sub selection menu and try the calibration without a sub and see how your mids and tweets sound then? At least it will help to check if the sub is throwing the EQ off.


Excellent point!


----------



## mforrest100

Quick question for anyone that can help. Just had my MS-8 installed and so far my car audio person was able to tune it once. He showed me how to tune it so that I can go thru it a couple more times so I can get it where I want it. The problem is that from the beginning....we were getting the error code saying to plus the mic in. So we would unplug....and before plugging back in it would allow us to continue. So we just plugged it back in and went on with the tuning. But today....I can't get past the error message. No matter what I do...it is saying that mic is unplugged. Please let me know if you can assist.

Thanks,
Mike


----------



## asat11

acidbass303 said:


> How is your imaging/staging? Is everything nicely centered around you? Something is clipping the mic during the 2nd, 3rd and 4th sweep interefering with the EQing.
> What gear are you running? Is the sub enclosure done right? What crossover settings(crossover points and slopes) are you using? Please post these parameters and may be it will help the experts and users here to pinpoint your problem.
> 
> Why dont you try selecting none at the sub selection menu and try the calibration without a sub and see how your mids and tweets sound then? At least it will help to check if the sub is throwing the EQ off.
> 
> And just as Mr Andy said, try resetting the unit to factory settings and then try callibrating, perhaps that will be of help too.
> 
> 
> Edit: and at least once try tuning with ALL the gains fully turned down.


Imaging and staging are much higher on the dash and very nicely centered, much better than without processing - with processor off the image is down around my knees..... with it on there are some parts on the "Hell Freezes Over" CD when people are cheering and yelling - I swear it sounds like some of them are sitting right next to me at the concert..... I'm sure it's an EQ problem. I'm running Diamond M5 6" in front doors with Seas Neo silks mounted right above them and slightly aft, 1 way passive pushed by a Fosgate Power 500a2 (125w), JL VR 6" (with tweets) passive in the rear deck powered by another RF 500a2, 2 10" Diamond M5 Subs in a 1.25 cu ft sealed enclosure in the trunk powered by a RF Power 1000bd (500w) I am using an older Eclipse HU - 55430 set at 60 (80 is max) Crossover points are set per the suggestions in the MS-8 manual. Have also used the reset - I did it just for grins after about the 50th calibration attempt  The problem also seems to be volume related.... If I take the sub output all the way down with the controller I can get it to sound "OK" at what I would call "medium" volume levels (but there is still a lack of good mid bass) but when I push the volume up, the tweets get harsh and painful, the subs go way loud and still a lack of mid bass..... and if I push it really hard the 6" fronts start chuffing and distorting ( they are clean without processing, much louder) Thanks for any ideas you guys..... will try the non sub cal and all gains to min cal and report back....


----------



## thehatedguy

Where in SC are you? I am about 45 min west of Charlotte.

I have the same amps, but my midbasses are swinging 11mm each way on low distortion motors .




kaigoss69 said:


> They are under the seats in my BMW. Sound freaking great, even without a sub, with a subsonic of 35Hz. I have NEVER got them to bottom out or even distort. The bass output is not earthshattering of course, but nice and tight with some good chest-thumping. 150W each from a JL HD600/4. The x-max is 4.25mm one way (not 3mm, smartasses ) and I am thinking about bridging the 600/4 to see how they sound then. My next challenge is to fit a set of Morel HCW10s down there, should be interesting! I have a 10W6 I bought used in VP Electricity's corner loaded trunk enclosure and I will see if I can get it to blend with the midbasses. So far though, sub-less sounds way better.


----------



## kaigoss69

thehatedguy said:


> Where in SC are you? I am about 45 min west of Charlotte.
> 
> I have the same amps, but my midbasses are swinging 11mm each way on low distortion motors .


I live about 5 minutes from the BMW factory.


----------



## mitchyz250f

Back to tweeters. If I put tweeters in my upper front door, the driver side tweeter fires right into the steering column. Isn't that a big problem? In the sail panel in would fire right into the dash (RSX). What about 1/2 way up on the pillars?


----------



## Jprice2708

acidbass303 said:


> How is your imaging/staging? Is everything nicely centered around you? Something is clipping the mic during the 2nd, 3rd and 4th sweeps interefering with the EQing.
> What gear are you running? Is the sub enclosure done right? What crossover settings(crossover points and slopes) are you using? Please post these parameters and may be it will help the experts and users here to pinpoint your problem.
> 
> Why dont you try selecting none at the sub selection menu and try the calibration without a sub and see how your mids and tweets sound then? At least it will help to check if the sub is throwing the EQ off.
> 
> And just as Mr Andy said, try resetting the unit to factory settings and then try callibrating, perhaps that will be of help too.
> 
> 
> Edit: and at least once try tuning with ALL the gains fully turned down.


I have tried numerous times with the gains all the way down, on both fronts and sub, also at 2v, and most other spots lol.

I tried without the sub, but that made no difference to the front - the sub was no longer overpowering though .

I tried with my fronts running passive, then changed and ran active with a 3khz 24db slope - both setups had the same problem.

I have been running the standard 80hz 24db slope for sub/fronts, and 20hz 24db subsonic.

I have tried every calibration volume from totally unable to hear the sweeps to a fairly loud volume - some sounded worse than others but none sounded good.

When I run calibration with the gains on min, I can then adjust the gains on the midbass up to something close to good afterwards, but still sounds worse than if I run with processing off.

I will add that I had it go right one time while running passive and with the sub hooked up, so I know I do like the sound of the processing. Gains were set at 2v on fronts and sub, and volume was at -40db for the sweeps. With processing on it sounded AMAZING - staging and imaging were the best I've ever heard. When I turned the car back on after having it off for 5 mins it sounded terrible again, and I've never had it work before or after that one time. 

Addition: Oh yeah, I am always turning Logic7 off as I am just running fronts and sub. I did test with Logic7 on but it still sounded no good.


----------



## Dirtboy

bmxscion said:


> Andy, I have an error which says to call tech support....NO DSP response keeps coming on. I just powered it up for the first time, and it lets me do a few selections on the menus and then it keeps resetting itself and flashing No DSP response.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> Thanks,
> Ben


That is the EXACT thing my unit was doing. I sent it in last week to get replaced. I'll bet you'll have to do the same. I'm still waiting on the new unit to be delivered to my parents house in the states since they won't ship it back to an APO address...


----------



## Tendean17

I've installed MS-8  .. been finished today .. So i'll run the processing setup. I want to ask about the position of Driver Seat and Passenger Seat for cars with the Right Steering Wheel (Driver's Seat position is on the right). No User Guide about this. I search .. never discuss about this also. Sorry if i'm wrong guys ..

When doing Acoustic Calibration / Measurement in the Drivers position in 1st measurement, where should I sit .. on the left or the right seat ?

In case on the Right Seat as Driver's Seat ..
Driver's Seat> Acoustic Measurement 1of4> Look Forward -> Go
Measurement 2of4> Look Forward -> Go
Measurement 3of4> Look Driver Side Mirror (Turn my head to the Right) -> Go
Measurement 4of4> Look Passenger Side Mirror (Turn my head to the Left) -> Go.
And so for others Next seating position.

Is that the wrong way or it should be no problem ?
Thanks.


----------



## yuri

it don't matter what side the wheel on, its still the drivers side .. the ms-8 knows

ie , sit on the drivers seat .. look at the drivers mirror ect ..


----------



## Tendean17

yuri said:


> it don't matter what side the wheel on, its still the drivers side .. the ms-8 knows
> ie , sit on the drivers seat .. look at the drivers mirror ect ..


Thanks yuri ..  .. i just worry about MS-8 averaging algoritm if i do it as opposite steps. 
Look Driver Side Mirror -> i look into Passanger Side Mirror as usual. 
Look Passenger Side Mirror -> i look into Driver Side Mirror as usual.

I'll setup tomorrow.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Tendean17 said:


> Thanks yuri ..  .. i just worry about MS-8 averaging algoritm if i do it as opposite steps.
> Look Driver Side Mirror -> i look into Passanger Side Mirror as usual.
> Look Passenger Side Mirror -> i look into Driver Side Mirror as usual.
> 
> I'll setup tomorrow.


I could be wrong but I think you sit on the left side of the car and do that side as the "driver" (ie first calibration). Then sit on the right side, your "driver's side" and do that as the passenger. Bizzaro style!


----------



## acidbass303

Yes it doesnt matter, i drive a right hand drive vehicle too.
Just follow on screen prompts and look to the drivers side mirror when it asks to and the passenger's side mirror when it prompts. It takes a spatial average.


----------



## acidbass303

t3sn4f2 said:


> I could be wrong but I think you sit on the left side of the car and do that side as the "driver" (ie first calibration). Then sit on the right side, your "driver's side" and do that as the passenger. Bizzaro style!


Haha
He doesnt need to do that sir, he can calibrate for drivers position while sitting in driver's seat


----------



## bmxscion

Dirtboy said:


> That is the EXACT thing my unit was doing. I sent it in last week to get replaced. I'll bet you'll have to do the same. I'm still waiting on the new unit to be delivered to my parents house in the states since they won't ship it back to an APO address...


I reset the MS-8 (button on the unit next to AUX input) and I got through the tones, but it was kind of late last night when I did this and I couldn't stay out and mess with it anymore. I think I am going to get a better idea of my 2V signal settings on my amps and get them as close as I can before I start going through the setup again. I turned them all the way down then up a 1/4 turn initially, but want to be MORE sure. Maybe that is why the unit is has no DSP response if it has the wrong signal voltage going to it.


----------



## Dirtboy

bmxscion said:


> I reset the MS-8 (button on the unit next to AUX input) and I got through the tones, but it was kind of late last night when I did this and I couldn't stay out and mess with it anymore. I think I am going to get a better idea of my 2V signal settings on my amps and get them as close as I can before I start going through the setup again. I turned them all the way down then up a 1/4 turn initially, but want to be MORE sure. Maybe that is why the unit is has no DSP response if it has the wrong signal voltage going to it.


I don't think the 2V input on your amps have anything to do with "No DSP Response". I think it's something internal. 

Mine was hooked up to an OEM deck through the speaker outputs; how is yours hooked up?

Mine also wouldn't get an "OK" signal when trying to do the initial setup with the CD. So I skipped that setup. I could get through the crossoever setup but then the unit would crash and reset when trying to do the microphone setup.


----------



## 14642

Tendean17 said:


> I've installed MS-8  .. been finished today .. So i'll run the processing setup. I want to ask about the position of Driver Seat and Passenger Seat for cars with the Right Steering Wheel (Driver's Seat position is on the right). No User Guide about this. I search .. never discuss about this also. Sorry if i'm wrong guys ..
> 
> When doing Acoustic Calibration / Measurement in the Drivers position in 1st measurement, where should I sit .. on the left or the right seat ?
> 
> In case on the Right Seat as Driver's Seat ..
> Driver's Seat> Acoustic Measurement 1of4> Look Forward -> Go
> Measurement 2of4> Look Forward -> Go
> Measurement 3of4> Look Driver Side Mirror (Turn my head to the Right) -> Go
> Measurement 4of4> Look Passenger Side Mirror (Turn my head to the Left) -> Go.
> And so for others Next seating position.
> 
> Is that the wrong way or it should be no problem ?
> Thanks.


 
That's why the manual and the display call it "Driver's Seat" and not "Right front Seat". This way, it's supposed to be completely seamless no matter where in the car you sit to drive.


----------



## asat11

Tried the cals with everything at min - no improvement, tried the cals without the subs - very marginal improvement in mid bass but tweets too loud at volume.... I don't know - my ears/brain was gettin sonic overload at that point..... just guessing but I think it's a volume/HU output issue? Seems like I can get it to sound great at lower volume levels - but much lower than I prefer to listen at..... then when I push the volume up to where Ilike it..... harsh tweets and booming subs - I have to set the MS-8 volume control to -4db and my head unit up to 70-73 (out of 80 max) to get the volume up where I like it..... could the Eclipse be overdriving the MS-8 at that point? (5v out -...... Iknow....) if so, what do I need to get the great mix at higher volume levels? JPrice - is there a volume correlation to your issues? Are you using an aftermkt HU?


----------



## bmxscion

Dirtboy said:


> I don't think the 2V input on your amps have anything to do with "No DSP Response". I think it's something internal.
> 
> Mine was hooked up to an OEM deck through the speaker outputs; how is yours hooked up?
> 
> Mine also wouldn't get an "OK" signal when trying to do the initial setup with the CD. So I skipped that setup. I could get through the crossoever setup but then the unit would crash and reset when trying to do the microphone setup.


I have mine hooked up by rca from my front ch. on my HU TO THE 1 & 2 inputs on the ms-8.


----------



## bmxscion

I spoke with the JBL senior Tech on the phone, and he said to unplug everything and plug it back in, and try again, and if it doesn't work it needs to be replaced. Guess what? It needs replaced!!! I am pissed.


----------



## nineball

bmxscion said:


> I spoke with the JBL senior Tech on the phone, and he said to unplug everything and plug it back in, and try again, and if it doesn't work it needs to be replaced. Guess what? It needs replaced!!! I am pissed.


they offer you a free replacement with basically no questions asked and you are pissed? i suppose you want them to send someone out and install and tune it for free too huh? how about being thankful they have a presence on this board to help you deal with the problems you are having? some people....


----------



## AWC

bmxscion said:


> I spoke with the JBL senior Tech on the phone, and he said to unplug everything and plug it back in, and try again, and if it doesn't work it needs to be replaced. Guess what? It needs replaced!!! I am pissed.


This is the case with every single thing you buy these days. Unplug it, plug it back in.....did that fix it?


I went to McDonald's to get a small fries. I said they were stale....they said unplug the box and plug it back in....


----------



## bmxscion

nineball said:


> they offer you a free replacement with basically no questions asked and you are pissed? i suppose you want them to send someone out and install and tune it for free too huh? how about being thankful they have a presence on this board to help you deal with the problems you are having? some people....


I'm just mad b/c I spent all weekend mounting it up and making everything perfect,and when I went to set it up it does not work. The JBL tech said this particular problem is not very common. JBL did not offer me a replacement. They said to exchange it with the place I bought it, which was an ebay store, which I am not sure if I can get an exchange. I guess we will wait and see.


----------



## acidbass303

asat11 said:


> Tried the cals with everything at min - no improvement, tried the cals without the subs - very marginal improvement in mid bass but tweets too loud at volume.... I don't know - my ears/brain was gettin sonic overload at that point..... just guessing but I think it's a volume/HU output issue? Seems like I can get it to sound great at lower volume levels - but much lower than I prefer to listen at..... then when I push the volume up to where Ilike it..... harsh tweets and booming subs - I have to set the MS-8 volume control to -4db and my head unit up to 70-73 (out of 80 max) to get the volume up where I like it..... could the Eclipse be overdriving the MS-8 at that point? (5v out -...... Iknow....) if so, what do I need to get the great mix at higher volume levels? JPrice - is there a volume correlation to your issues? Are you using an aftermkt HU?



sir, try connecting a mp3 player (Ipod/Iphone/etc) through a 3.5mm to RCA auxiliary Y Cable ( like Walmart.com: Belkin 12' Y Audio Cable: Computers )to ms8's AUX input to see if your eclipse head unit really is clipping the MS8's input. and oh, do change the source to Aux in the input selection menu under the main screen. do let us know about your findings..

and also, after calibration, to what level do you set your MS8's volume setting? just a reminder, -6db is the maximum unclipped volume of the Ms8..


----------



## nineball

bmxscion said:


> I'm just mad b/c I spent all weekend mounting it up and making everything perfect,and when I went to set it up it does not work. The JBL tech said this particular problem is not very common. JBL did not offer me a replacement. They said to exchange it with the place I bought it, which was an ebay store, which I am not sure if I can get an exchange. I guess we will wait and see.


tech support on an unauthorized purchase? ya i would be mad too. lesson learned about buying high end electrical equipment on ebay. good luck.


----------



## bmxscion

No need for me to be mad anymore...The company I got it from is a JBL dealer and they are going to exchange it and cover the shipping charges...I am in a good mood now...just gotta go uninstall the unit from my car and send it off tomorrow. This will give me a chance to get some other little install items I need as well.


----------



## Jprice2708

asat11 said:


> Tried the cals with everything at min - no improvement, tried the cals without the subs - very marginal improvement in mid bass but tweets too loud at volume.... I don't know - my ears/brain was gettin sonic overload at that point..... just guessing but I think it's a volume/HU output issue? Seems like I can get it to sound great at lower volume levels - but much lower than I prefer to listen at..... then when I push the volume up to where Ilike it..... harsh tweets and booming subs - I have to set the MS-8 volume control to -4db and my head unit up to 70-73 (out of 80 max) to get the volume up where I like it..... could the Eclipse be overdriving the MS-8 at that point? (5v out -...... Iknow....) if so, what do I need to get the great mix at higher volume levels? JPrice - is there a volume correlation to your issues? Are you using an aftermkt HU?


No, my issues with no midbass and overpowering sub are there at all volume levels.

I have been setting the volume at -6db on the MS8 after calibration and using my Alpine HU to control volume (I did try setting my volume to 25 out of 35 on the HU, the spot the MS8 got the best signal, and adjusting volume with the MS8).

As my car is right hand drive I tried the drivers calibrations from the passenger seat too, but that didn't help either.


----------



## asat11

acidbass303 said:


> sir, try connecting a mp3 player (Ipod/Iphone/etc) through a 3.5mm to RCA auxiliary Y Cable ( like Walmart.com: Belkin 12' Y Audio Cable: Computers )to ms8's AUX input to see if your eclipse head unit really is clipping the MS8's input. and oh, do change the source to Aux in the input selection menu under the main screen. do let us know about your findings..
> 
> and also, after calibration, to what level do you set your MS8's volume setting? just a reminder, -6db is the maximum unclipped volume of the Ms8..


Hooked up the daughters IPOD - same issues, the more I listen at various volume levels the more it seems the same - it just is way more pronounced at higher volumes - I'm not sure if it is too much subs and tweets or just a huge lack of mid bass..... I think if there were more mids and mid bass I would not be turning it up as loud..... or when I did it would be more balanced and sound like I am expecting it to. Initially I was turning the ms8 volume up to -4 but I have been keeping it at -6 and below today - no help.....


----------



## thehatedguy

Do you guys with the lack of midbass have the polarities correct? They should all be connected pos-pos and neg-neg, nothing should be flipped.

I have never had a problem with a lack of midbass.


----------



## Jprice2708

thehatedguy said:


> Do you guys with the lack of midbass have the polarities correct? They should all be connected pos-pos and neg-neg, nothing should be flipped.
> 
> I have never had a problem with a lack of midbass.


Yeah, that was one of the first things I checked as I had seen posts about the midbass canceling out. Also if it were a phase issue wouldn't there be a midbass problem with processing off as well as on? My system sounds pretty good without processing on...


----------



## necrophidious

asat11 said:


> Hooked up the daughters IPOD - same issues, the more I listen at various volume levels the more it seems the same - it just is way more pronounced at higher volumes - I'm not sure if it is too much subs and tweets or just a huge lack of mid bass..... I think if there were more mids and mid bass I would not be turning it up as loud..... or when I did it would be more balanced and sound like I am expecting it to. Initially I was turning the ms8 volume up to -4 but I have been keeping it at -6 and below today - no help.....


I'm having the exact same issues. I have been following the thread and trying all of the suggestions (no sub, gains to zero, gains at 2v, resetting the unit, double checking the polarity, etc) and have had no luck. I even had it professionally installed and the installer spent an hour on the phone with Andy, and he still could not figure it out. LOTS of sub and highs, no mids or midbass. Sounds awful to the point I can't listen to it without getting a headache.


----------



## Jprice2708

necrophidious said:


> I'm having the exact same issues. I have been following the thread and trying all of the suggestions (no sub, gains to zero, gains at 2v, resetting the unit, double checking the polarity, etc) and have had no luck. I even had it professionally installed and the installer spent an hour on the phone with Andy, and he still could not figure it out. LOTS of sub and highs, no mids or midbass. Sounds awful to the point I can't listen to it without getting a headache.


Heheh, I know that headache well...

Very frustrating, I've spent close to $5k on this system so far, and there is really no 'wow' factor at all.

Starting to think I should have bought a Bit One - at least then when it sounded terrible it would have been because I have no idea what I'm doing (J/K - the plug and play of the MS8 is what made me buy it, and the one time it did work it sounded INCREDIBLE... Just wish I could get that happening again).


----------



## Tendean17

asat11 said:


> Tried the cals with everything at min - no improvement, tried the cals without the subs - very marginal improvement in mid bass but tweets too loud at volume.... I don't know - my ears/brain was gettin sonic overload at that point..... just guessing but I think it's a volume/HU output issue? Seems like I can get it to sound great at lower volume levels - but much lower than I prefer to listen at..... then when I push the volume up to where Ilike it..... harsh tweets and booming subs - I have to set the MS-8 volume control to -4db and my head unit up to 70-73 (out of 80 max) to get the volume up where I like it..... could the Eclipse be overdriving the MS-8 at that point? (5v out -...... Iknow....) if so, what do I need to get the great mix at higher volume levels? JPrice - is there a volume correlation to your issues? Are you using an aftermkt HU?


I Suggest your gain will make distortion to MS-8 input and your Tweeter above Max db level. I don't know your Tweeter T/S Parameter but i think it over dB Max power that it can handle and makes big distorsion.

For some references please read this collections first : http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq-2.html
Start #33 to #40.


----------



## Tendean17

t3sn4f2 said:


> I could be wrong but I think you sit on the left side of the car and do that side as the "driver" (ie first calibration). Then sit on the right side, your "driver's side" and do that as the passenger. Bizzaro style!


Thanks T3 .. i don't know what is "Bizzaro style" and sometimes other American style ..  .. But i'll try that style too.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> That's why the manual and the display call it "Driver's Seat" and not "Right front Seat". This way, it's supposed to be completely seamless no matter where in the car you sit to drive.


 Thanks Andy.

I did Accoustic Measurement last night .. 
and .. The Result is NOT good ! ... 

it's *GREAAATTTT*.  as it should be.


----------



## subwoofery

Jprice2708 said:


> Yeah, that was one of the first things I checked as I had seen posts about the midbass canceling out. Also if it were a phase issue wouldn't there be a midbass problem with processing off as well as on? My system sounds pretty good without processing on...


From your post, you really should check your polarity. 


> My system sounds pretty good without processing on...


^ To me, it sounds like you have 1 mid out of phase - making for a centered soundstage with the MS-8 off but out of whack with the MS-8 processing on. 

Been said many many many times: + to +, - to - when you use the MS-8 (if you have door mounted drivers, it "shouldn't" sound good due to the PLD and lack of T/A) 

Kelvin


----------



## Tendean17

acidbass303 said:


> Yes it doesnt matter, i drive a right hand drive vehicle too.
> Just follow on screen prompts and look to the drivers side mirror when it asks to and the passenger's side mirror when it prompts. It takes a spatial average.


Thanks all .. 

Now i feel like Andy Wehmeyer  + AdamS  + Gary Biggs  + Tendean17  works together to tune and setup in my car.  

I Prepared my system very well as i can do ..
Learn and read more and more to all my Senior says .. 
Try to implement all JBL MS-8 Recommendation and Suggestion ..
Listen to thehatedguy says about Larger Center will be better ..
Listen to AdamS says about Max Volume and Level Recommendation ..
Listen to Andy Wehmeyer says all about JBL MS-8.

I'm very happy now.


----------



## Jprice2708

subwoofery said:


> From your post, you really should check your polarity.
> 
> ^ To me, it sounds like you have 1 mid out of phase - making for a centered soundstage with the MS-8 off but out of whack with the MS-8 processing on.
> 
> PpBeen said many many many times: + to +, - to - when you use the MS-8 (if you have door mounted drivers, it "shouldn't" sound good due to the PLD and lack of T/A)
> 
> Kelvin


Hmmmmm, well both midbass drivers are + to + and - to - from amps to speakers, but I'll try swapping them around to all the other possible combinations after work today and see if it helps anything.

Oh and thanks for the suggestion tendean, I read that thread, very informative  still don't think the issue is tweeter distortion or clipping though, I have zero audible distortion in my tweeters even at much higher volumes than the sweeps, and the T/A, and staging on the tweeters is better than the other speakers.


----------



## Jprice2708

Ok, just did some testing with surprising results.

Gains on both sub and front amps set to 2v. MS8 sweeps at -40db. Testing drivers side only to begin with. I made polarity adjustments on 6.5" drivers only. I recalibrated after each polarity change.

1st test, left side + to +, right side + to +, (original setup with the problematic sound). Tweeters sound clear and have good staging, no midbass at all, sub totally overpowering.

2nd test, left side + to -, right side + to +. Left channel midbass slightly better, way to much sub.

3rd test, Left side + to +, right side + to -. Left channel more dominant sounding, tweeters volume down, sub too loud.

4th test, left + to -, right + to -. Sounded weird, but hard to put my finger on why. Sub was way too loud still. I decided I wanted to hear this setup with calibration from passenger and drivers seat, and front weighted. Recalibrated from both front seats. Listened to music with processing off, then drivers side, then front weighted. It actually sounded better than with processing off! Sub was still way too loud though. I turned the sub gains down to min and reran calibration - best it has sounded yet (other than the one time it sounded perfect). I have a front stage, imaging is decent, and the frequency response is actually more weighted towards the lower end, which I tend to EQ for anyway...

Is it perfect? No.
Flat response? No.
Everything I had hoped for from my MS8? No way 
Better than no processing? Yes!
Enough that I don't feel like I wasted my money? Yes.

So big thanks everyone for such great help, not a fairytale outcome, but it'll do 

Asat - I hope this help you out too mate...


----------



## Tendean17

JPrice ..
I'm not expert of JBL MS-8 but maybe i have some collections from the Experts. 

Reading your Midbass Problem .. i try to think why you and others say "No Midbass" is "maybe" cause of you compare your Midbass response level with your previous system without JBL MS-8 that you can choose overlapping and boosting for free. I think MS-8 using some different shelfing filter to make integration between Sub and Midbass more smooth and no overlapping at all .. How you identify "No Midbass" from ? Turn off your Subwoofer and Just leave the Midbass ? Are you use Midrange .. ? if yes what is your x'over point between Midbass and Midrange .. A Narrow Range can cause a problem too as far as i know.

Below is Andy's Post .. and he doesn't like other then + to + and - to - for Midbass and Up. I Think Option No. 3 you should try too. 



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> For those of you who are having trouble integrating the bass with the midbass, here are some tips:
> 
> 1. The Subwoofer level control in MS-8 isn't a gain control for the sub output. It's basically a target curve adjuster and boosts or cuts bass with a filter that mimics the low-frequency end of the target curve. The target curve includes 9dB of boost below 60Hz with a smooth transition to 160 Hz. The subwoofer level control is a shelf that boosts or cuts below 60 and never above 160 (the slope of the filter changes with the amount of boost or cut. Use it to adjust the level of the bass before going after it with the 31-band EQ.
> 
> 2. If you're using a factory head unit and your factory system has a subwoofer, disconnect the subwoofer output of the factory amp from MS-8's input and re-run input setup. This will work great if your factory midrange speakers are 6", but not in BMWs with 4" midrange drivers. MS-8 includes enough boost to put the bass back in so long as the factory crossover is near about 80Hz. The reason that this is important is that in many cars with factory subwoofers, the front speakers and the sub crossover aren't well aligned and the electrical combination of the two create a huge dip in the response that MS-8 tries to fix with boost. MS-8 can't determine if the dip is caused by a big "underlap" or because the two signals are out of phase at the crossover (because of alignment of the crossover frequencies and slopes).
> 
> 3. Reverse the polarity of the subwoofer and re-run acoustic calibration.
> 
> 4. If any of the first three don't do the job and you're using a little sealed box and your sub amplifier also has a crossover, set the amp's crossover to about 60 or 70Hz. This will change the overall response of the sub by reducing the boomy midbass it makes (which is picked up by MS-8's mic and used to set the sub bass level). Then, run acoustic calibration again.
> 
> And, if you're having trouble getting a center image, the sweeps are too loud or one midrange/midbass is wired in reverse polarity. Verify the polarity by plugging a source directly into the amp that drives those speakers and playing a mono signal or use a 1.5V battery and check to see that the speaker moves forward when the battery + is applied to the speaker +. Simply checking the wires may not be sufficient, especially if you're bridging a 4-channel amp to drive the two speakers. If you used the B.S. "put one midbass out of phase to fix the image" trick for two-channel systems, you have to eliminate this for MS-8-based systems. It's a B.S. fix, anyway.


----------



## kaigoss69

Jprice2708 said:


> No, my issues with no midbass and overpowering sub are there at all volume levels.
> 
> I have been setting the volume at -6db on the MS8 after calibration and using my Alpine HU to control volume (*I did try setting my volume to 25 out of 35 on the HU, the spot the MS8 got the best signal*, and adjusting volume with the MS8).


Not that it's going to make a huge difference but with an aftermarket HU you should skip the input setup.


----------



## Jprice2708

Tendean17 said:


> JPrice ..
> I'm not expert of JBL MS-8 but maybe i have some collections from the Experts.
> 
> Reading your Midbass Problem .. i try to think why you and others say "No Midbass" is "maybe" cause of you compare your Midbass response level with your previous system without JBL MS-8 that you can choose overlapping and boosting for free. I think MS-8 using some different shelfing filter to make integration between Sub and Midbass more smooth and no overlapping at all .. How you identify "No Midbass" from ? Turn off your Subwoofer and Just leave the Midbass ? Are you use Midrange .. ? if yes what is your x'over point between Midbass and Midrange .. A Narrow Range can cause a problem too as far as i know.
> 
> Below is Andy's Post .. and he doesn't like other then + to + and - to - for Midbass and Up. I Think Option No. 3 you should try too.


I was comparing my midbass to running the HU into the amps, all EQ turned off. There was no boosting happening. With the MS8 in, when I said it had no midbass, I mean those frequencies were close to nonexistant.

Anyway for me it does appear to mostly be a phase/polarity issue. My sub is still overpowering, but I'm going to rewire it to run at 800w 4ohm instead of 2000w 1ohm - I have a feeling that will fix it


----------



## Jprice2708

kaigoss69 said:


> Not that it's going to make a huge difference but with an aftermarket HU you should skip the input setup.


I only ran it once to see if it made a difference, and check the MS8 was getting a good signal


----------



## CraigE

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> For those of you who are having trouble integrating the bass with the midbass, here are some tips:
> 
> 
> 4. If any of the first three don't do the job and you're using a little sealed box and your sub amplifier also has a crossover, set the amp's crossover to about 60 or 70Hz. This will change the overall response of the sub by reducing the boomy midbass it makes (which is picked up by MS-8's mic and used to set the sub bass level). Then, run acoustic calibration again.


Tendean17 thanks for reposting this. 

I have a small sealed box, and after calibration I have to boost 63,125,250 Hz. 
Not a big deal, but now I think I know why.


----------



## KenNorton

no firmware update yet?


----------



## quietfly

So Andy my question is two fold:

 after taking a look at the pictures below would moving my tweeters up to the sail panels help with imagining using the MS-8. 


would placing the center channel in a custom pod below the dash but with direct line of sight to the listeners work ok?

I have a 1995 Tahoe so i'd love feedback from anyone who has done a ms8 with center channel in one. 

I can't find a way to reasonably place a 6.5 center in the dash. 

any ideas?


----------



## Dmanj

Whats the bass from subs with the ms8? i dont want to buy one of these and completely lose my bass. I dont listen to music with heavy bass but if i were to, will most of it be gone or will there still be a fair bit of bass there?

is there any OS requirements for the updates? mainly will a Mac be fine for the updates or does it need to be windows based computer?


----------



## BuickGN

Dmanj said:


> Whats the bass from subs with the ms8? i dont want to buy one of these and completely lose my bass. I dont listen to music with heavy bass but if i were to, will most of it be gone or will there still be a fair bit of bass there?
> 
> is there any OS requirements for the updates? mainly will a Mac be fine for the updates or does it need to be windows based computer?


Bass is fine. In fact I generally turn the sub level down after the autotune. It's surprising how much you can have the sub boosted and still have up front bass if you want to.


----------



## Jprice2708

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> For those of you who are having trouble integrating the bass with the midbass, here are some tips:
> 
> 4. If any of the first three don't do the job and you're using a little sealed box and your sub amplifier also has a crossover, set the amp's crossover to about 60 or 70Hz. This will change the overall response of the sub by reducing the boomy midbass it makes (which is picked up by MS-8's mic and used to set the sub bass level). Then, run acoustic calibration again.


Just to double check, set a Low Pass or High Pass filter at 60-70hz? I'm assuming LP, but want to make sure. Also if the amp only has a subsonic filter, is there some way to add something on the RCA temporarily to LP at 60-70hz?


----------



## yuri

help needed .. ANDY.........

i need to find the wiring diagram/ pin out for a B&O system in a Audi A5 ..

its 3g mmi head unit with the B&O amp and speaker package ..
on the amp its printed LEAR for B&O part number 8t0 035 223an ..

i am trying to help out a guy that's had an install fitted by a so called "pro" 
its a 3way front with a passive on the mids and tweets . full range center .
full range rears + sub .

it has no output on the front 6.5 midbass in the doors .......

so i ran a fresh set up ,, it found a signal but had "low level " message on the screen ,wouldn't let me continue so i reset again and skipped the level setup..

everything else went fine ie x over points ,speaker/channel assignment etc..
sweeps fine , pink noise from each speaker/channel all good ..

finished the set up , pressed play and still no midbass output ... 
i then hooked up my iphone ,changed over to aux in and there was loads of midbass .... 

i checked the ms-8 and B&O amp connections , looks like there is 6 sets of the speaker outs from the B&O amp going into the ms-8 but it looks like there is 2 more sets not connected 
( blue with a white stripe & black with a white stripe )
(red with a purple stripe & brown with a purple stripe) 

i am thinking that's the reason i am not getting any midbass from the headunit ,, ie the B&O amp is outputting different frequencies through it speaker outs and the 2 unconnected set are the ones that carry the midbass so the ms-8 cant sum up a full range output from the B&O amp ...

i would like to totally rewire between the ms-8 and B&0 amp , so if i can find a wiring diagram for the B&O amp that would be great ....
ANDY HELP or anyone point me to a diagram please ...


----------



## jsampsell

Just got my MS-8 today. I'm pretty excited about it since it was recommended to me a couple weeks ago. Got a question for anyone willing to help me out.

I've got a Infinity Reference 5350a 5-channel amp running my front, rear and subs. I also have a Rockford Fosgate RFC1 because my experience with Ford alternators has been bad and I thought it would help. Regardless of opinion on whether the RFC1 is usefull or not, it's what I have and I'm looking for the best way to add the MS-8 to the trunk. 

I've got 4AWG wire running for power and ground. The MS-8 says minimum 12AWG wire for these. Should I stay with 4AWG? Can I run the MS-8 off of the RFC1 for power too? I've never gone past an amp install/cap install so I just want to make sure that I don't do anything that would harm the rest of the system.

Also, granted I have enough length on the ground wire, would it be better to run the MS-8 ground to the same location of the RFC1 and 5350a ground? I'm pretty sure I'll have another location to choose from on the side of the trunk that I'll be installing it into.

I'm not exactly a newbie but I'm not exactly a pro either. Any help would be appreciated.

Jeremy

BTW - here's a link to a thread about my system install. If it helps to see what I've got. Ford Taurus Forum • 8" Subs in Rear Deck - Ford Taurus Forum


----------



## hemi4me?

Anyone in AZ know of a person that has installed these before and or knows what they are doing with this unit? 

This is a last effort before I just forget it, seems like no one knows locally how to install it.

PHX, Scottsdale, Mesa, Tempe... Doesnt matter really.


----------



## asat11

jsampsell said:


> Just got my MS-8 today. I'm pretty excited about it since it was recommended to me a couple weeks ago. Got a question for anyone willing to help me out.
> 
> I've got a Infinity Reference 5350a 5-channel amp running my front, rear and subs. I also have a Rockford Fosgate RFC1 because my experience with Ford alternators has been bad and I thought it would help. Regardless of opinion on whether the RFC1 is usefull or not, it's what I have and I'm looking for the best way to add the MS-8 to the trunk.
> 
> I've got 4AWG wire running for power and ground. The MS-8 says minimum 12AWG wire for these. Should I stay with 4AWG? Can I run the MS-8 off of the RFC1 for power too? I've never gone past an amp install/cap install so I just want to make sure that I don't do anything that would harm the rest of the system.
> 
> Also, granted I have enough length on the ground wire, would it be better to run the MS-8 ground to the same location of the RFC1 and 5350a ground? I'm pretty sure I'll have another location to choose from on the side of the trunk that I'll be installing it into.


Run a 12ga (14 would be plenty also if you aren't using the MS-8's internal amp) wire from any convenient place from your 4ga wire (+terminal of the Cap or + input of your amp...) and put an inline 25a fuse in the first foot or so of the 12ga. Ground it wherever you want.... Ground is ground is ground.......


----------



## hemi4me?

So I am still struggling thinking I may keep my new MS8 and install it or might sell it (the new one was a warranty replacement and customer service was great). 

Can anyone tell me lets say I have INPUT from the front door left and right (4" and tweet in a 335i BMW) and I have input from one under seat sub (this is the biggest woofer in the car) to channel 8 is that enough? 

I mean is it necessary to add input from Center channel, rear deck speakers, or the other under seat woofer? 

Or does the MS8 figure it out and sum from just the doors and woofer? 

Its weird I can get the speakers to SHHHH out of each one and got the sweep noise from each speaker even the subs but I get no volume from the subs when music plays, no midbass, no low range at all basically.


----------



## kaigoss69

hemi4me? said:


> So I am still struggling thinking I may keep my new MS8 and install it or might sell it (the new one was a warranty replacement and customer service was great).
> 
> Can anyone tell me lets say I have INPUT from the front door left and right (4" and tweet in a 335i BMW) and I have input from one under seat sub (this is the biggest woofer in the car) to channel 8 is that enough?
> 
> I mean is it necessary to add input from Center channel, rear deck speakers, or the other under seat woofer?
> 
> Or does the MS8 figure it out and sum from just the doors and woofer?
> 
> Its weird I can get the speakers to SHHHH out of each one and got the sweep noise from each speaker even the subs but I get no volume from the subs when music plays, no midbass, no low range at all basically.


The underseat woofers are stereo since they carry midbass frequencies so you need to hook both of them up, to channels 7 & 8.


----------



## hemi4me?

kaigoss69 said:


> The underseat woofers are stereo since they carry midbass frequencies so you need to hook both of them up, to channels 7 & 8.


OK done, still the same. 

Do I need really to hook up the center and the rears to the input side? 

Its just so weird that I get bass from the speakers during the sweeps and I get the SHHHHH during that calibration as well from all speakers.


----------



## kaigoss69

hemi4me? said:


> OK done, still the same.
> 
> Do I need really to hook up the center and the rears to the input side?
> 
> Its just so weird that I get bass from the speakers during the sweeps and I get the SHHHHH during that calibration as well from all speakers.


No, you do NOT connect the center and the rears to the input. Only use input channels 1,2,7,8.


----------



## t3sn4f2

You also need to turn off surround/logic7 processing and leave it off forever after that.


----------



## t3sn4f2

t3sn4f2 said:


> You also need to turn off surround/logic7 processing and leave it off forever after that.


On the head unit that is.


----------



## subwoofery

t3sn4f2 said:


> You also need to turn off surround/logic7 processing and leave it off forever after that.


^ that's a good advice. Check you HU for any processing on. Put your Bass, Mid and Treble settings back to 0 too. Same for fader and balance. 

Kelvin


----------



## hemi4me?

Man, not sure what happened. 

Thanks everyone, especially Kaigoss. 

Not sure what my installer was doing, I did not change any of the inputs or outs and I just messed with some of the crossover points and hell yah. Now my EQ looks like a roller coaster lol.

Does anyone mess with the MS8 tone? Like the mid, center, sub, treble and bass? Or do you try to do that with the eq? 

I need some pics of eq curves lol. Mine looks crazy wanted a lot of mid


----------



## t3sn4f2

subwoofery said:


> ^ that's a good advice. Check you HU for any processing on. Put your Bass, Mid and Treble settings back to 0 too. Same for fader and balance.
> 
> Kelvin


Oh, and it needs to be off before setting up the MS-8. Also unplug the mic after each calibration session. IOW read the manual plus all the tips and tricks threads out there.


----------



## subwoofery

hemi4me? said:


> Man, not sure what happened.
> 
> Thanks everyone, especially Kaigoss.
> 
> Not sure what my installer was doing, I did not change any of the inputs or outs and I just messed with some of the crossover points and hell yah. Now my EQ looks like a roller coaster lol.
> 
> Does anyone mess with the MS8 tone? Like the mid, center, sub, treble and bass? Or do you try to do that with the eq?
> 
> I need some pics of eq curves lol. Mine looks crazy wanted a lot of mid


No need to look at others' EQ curves... You will not get the same kind of sound. 
2 EQ curves can look exactly the same yet it will sound vastly different. 

Cone type, Xover points, T/A or no T/A, all that will mess with your sound. Heck even 2 people using the exact same car, EQed with the MS-8 but different drivers won't have the same sound. 

If you like lots of midrange and tune so... then leave it and enjoy. If it sounds good to you, that's all that matters. 

Kelvin


----------



## hemi4me?

Problem is Kelvin I bet someone that knows how to tune will make it sound better than me!

I am taking it to Jon Handcrafted. He did a lil work for me a while back and he sounded like he messed with these before. I am going to have him amp my under seat woofers (PPI Art A600) and my doors (A600) and get ready for the HAT L4 I want to toss in there.


----------



## ISTundra

hemi4me? said:


> I am taking it to Jon Handcrafted. He did a lil work for me a while back and he sounded like he messed with these before. I am going to have him amp my under seat woofers (PPI Art A600) and my doors (A600) and get ready for the HAT L4 I want to toss in there.


Did you happen to call Jon at Handcrafted today around 5ish about the MS-8? I was there then and someone called him about an MS-8. He's prolly the right guy to see around these parts.


----------



## jsampsell

asat11 said:


> Run a 12ga (14 would be plenty also if you aren't using the MS-8's internal amp) wire from any convenient place from your 4ga wire (+terminal of the Cap or + input of your amp...) and put an inline 25a fuse in the first foot or so of the 12ga. Ground it wherever you want.... Ground is ground is ground.......


Thanks for the reply! I bought this amp install kit from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Audio-KIT-2-Complete-Amplifier-Installation/dp/B000FKP7TY. I can't seem to find info on the fuse size. Will it be OK if it is larger than the 25a you and the owner's manual recommend? Other than that question, I'm ready to to install once I get the amp install kit. Should be here tomorrow. Thanks again!


----------



## mikesz

AdamS said:


> Debugging Tip of the Day:
> 
> If you're getting speaker "break-up" distortion, one thing to try is to pre-equalize the gains on your amplifier going to each driver.
> 
> This way, MS-8 focuses more on the dips and bumps and less on level shifting sections of the spectrum. MS-8 does have gain and attenuation limits, and these can be hit in some cases, causing really odd results.


Is there some diagnostic feature in the MS-8 that allows you to see if these limits have been hit? Also is there a way to tell if the mic signal is outside the expexted levels when calibrating?

Mike


----------



## hemi4me?

ISTundra said:


> Did you happen to call Jon at Handcrafted today around 5ish about the MS-8? I was there then and someone called him about an MS-8. He's prolly the right guy to see around these parts.


Yes that was me, I got it working heading over tomorrow to see if he will install my amps.


----------



## quietfly

quietfly said:


> So Andy my question is two fold:
> 
> after taking a look at the pictures below would moving my tweeters up to the sail panels help with imagining using the MS-8.
> 
> 
> would placing the center channel in a custom pod below the dash but with direct line of sight to the listeners work ok?
> 
> I have a 1995 Tahoe so i'd love feedback from anyone who has done a ms8 with center channel in one.
> 
> I can't find a way to reasonably place a 6.5 center in the dash.
> 
> any ideas?



Andy i'm not sure if you missed my question, so i'll re-post it


----------



## Joker_927

When using the internal amplifier in the ms-8, does the unit apply its crossover and eq adjustments before amplification?


----------



## quietfly

Joker_927 said:


> When using the internal amplifier in the ms-8, does the unit apply its crossover and eq adjustments before amplification?


i'm not 100% certain, but i'd have to guess that it does, as making those adjustments after amplification would seem like an easy place to introduce unwanted "noise" to the signal...


----------



## Wheres The Butta

quietfly said:


> i'm not 100% certain, but i'd have to guess that it does, as making those adjustments after amplification would seem like an easy place to introduce unwanted "noise" to the signal...


I think that logic is faulty, since "noise" that's amplified is louder than noise added after amplification. 



Joker_927 said:


> When using the internal amplifier in the ms-8, does the unit apply its crossover and eq adjustments before amplification?


I am pretty sure it applies processing before amplification.


----------



## BuickGN

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> IF you've run setup and calibration a bunch of times, go to the system settings menu and select "reset factory default". That'll nuke everything in the memory and set the "out of box" bit back to "1". Then you can start over.


Thanks Andy, this worked great! I still have a very slight difference in left and right during diagnostics. Maybe it's time to start looking at the install. The tweeters seem to be the same level from side to side but the mids and midbass are slightly lower on the driver's side. However, everything sounds great once I do an auto tune.

If you have the time, can you explain what happens as you do lots of auto tunes? Does it sort of "adapt" or learn your setup?


----------



## Gary Mac

BuickGN said:


> Thanks Andy, this worked great! I still have a very slight difference in left and right during diagnostics. Maybe it's time to start looking at the install. The tweeters seem to be the same level from side to side but the mids and midbass are slightly lower on the driver's side. However, everything sounds great once I do an auto tune.
> 
> If you have the time, can you explain what happens as you do lots of auto tunes? Does it sort of "adapt" or learn your setup?


I think he stated (about 50 pages ago) that this occurs if your center channel high pass is higher than your front mids.


----------



## t3sn4f2

quietfly said:


> i'm not 100% certain, but i'd have to guess that it does, as making those adjustments after amplification would seem like an easy place to introduce unwanted "noise" to the signal...


Before. "The MS-8" (or I should start saying "MS-8" ) is a digital signal processor (a form of "active" filtering). Also, passive crossovers, which would be the type of filtering that would come afterward, do not add noise.


----------



## BuickGN

Gary Mac said:


> I think he stated (about 50 pages ago) that this occurs if your center channel high pass is higher than your front mids.


Thank you. Time for me to do some more searching. Whey you say the "mid" high pass, are you talking about the midbass or an actual mid in a 3-way setup? I have the center high passed at 120hz/24db. It's a cheap Type-R that I picked up very cheap just to see if I liked the center effect. I managed to get a 5.25" in the factory location, maybe I can bring it down to 80hz... My midbasses are high passed at 72/18 and my mids are at 650/24.

I wonder if there is any advantage to trying the center at something lower. Excursion is minimal right now.


----------



## Bluenote

BuickGN,

I have my center 5 1/4 Morel Maximo running at 80hz / 24db off the MS8 power. The Midbass & Sub are crossed the same way 80/24 DB. I have found after running the center from as high as 100hz that I like this set-up better after almost 6months of playing with different settings. The voice's are deeper and seems to anchor the image in an almost perfect position. No resonance or vibrations from the center running that low either...just my .02...


----------



## BuickGN

Bluenote said:


> BuickGN,
> 
> I have my center 5 1/4 Morel Maximo running at 80hz / 24db off the MS8 power. The Midbass & Sub are crossed the same way 80/24 DB. I have found after running the center from as high as 100hz that I like this set-up better after almost 6months of playing with different settings. The voice's are deeper and seems to anchor the image in an almost perfect position. No resonance or vibrations from the center running that low either...just my .02...


Thank you for the input. I'll try lowering the center high pass tomorrow. The reason I didn't want to push the limit was I remember Andy saying that it was important to not highpass it lower than what it can play easily. Being a cheap mid I was a little worried but it's worth a try, can't hurt anything. Plus being powered off of the MS8 like yours I doubt there's any chance of damaging it.

How do you like the Maximo? Now that I know I like the center I'm going to be looking for something better and I'm clueless at this point where to start. Only problem is 2" is about as deep as I can go. Pulling out the factory clock and AC vent covers exposes a cavern under the stock center grill. I could probably fit a 10" speaker in the dash. The only problem is getting it past 3" of AC ducting. That's where the depth requirement comes in. If it wasn't for that I could practically mount a shallow sub in there.

Thanks again.


----------



## Gary Mac

BuickGN said:


> Thank you. Time for me to do some more searching. Whey you say the "mid" high pass, are you talking about the midbass or an actual mid in a 3-way setup? I have the center high passed at 120hz/24db. It's a cheap Type-R that I picked up very cheap just to see if I liked the center effect. I managed to get a 5.25" in the factory location, maybe I can bring it down to 80hz... My midbasses are high passed at 72/18 and my mids are at 650/24.
> 
> I wonder if there is any advantage to trying the center at something lower. Excursion is minimal right now.


I think he means matching the crossover point of the largest front speaker. Hard to do with most of our set-ups, I can't believe you got a 5.25 in your tl center


----------



## BuickGN

Gary Mac said:


> I think he means matching the crossover point of the largest front speaker. Hard to do with most of our set-ups, I can't believe you got a 5.25 in your tl center


Thanks to Niebur3 on here, I found that you can pull the clock display out and slide a speaker in from the front instead of trying to get it in that small grill up top. Tons of space in there except for the depth. No cutting or modification required.

I might take the center down to the midbass crossover point just for fun. It just sounds so good right now I'm scared of changing anything. For the first time ever I'm 99% happy with the setup.


----------



## 14642

Joker_927 said:


> When using the internal amplifier in the ms-8, does the unit apply its crossover and eq adjustments before amplification?


Yes, there's no other nor better way.


----------



## 14642

quietfly said:


> Andy i'm not sure if you missed my question, so i'll re-post it


Well...none of this is going to be super-great for the passenger. Are you mostly concerned with performance in the driver's seat or is the passenger's seat important too?


----------



## 14642

BuickGN said:


> Thanks Andy, this worked great! I still have a very slight difference in left and right during diagnostics. Maybe it's time to start looking at the install. The tweeters seem to be the same level from side to side but the mids and midbass are slightly lower on the driver's side. However, everything sounds great once I do an auto tune.
> 
> If you have the time, can you explain what happens as you do lots of auto tunes? Does it sort of "adapt" or learn your setup?


NO, there's no fuzzy logic or atrificial intelligence. If I knew how to do that, I'd go work for NASA. The correction filter is really long and is stored in memory. Each time you run setup, the new filter is written over the old one. They aren't always the same length (amount of data), so repeated calibrations can leave a small trail of extra stuff. Every once in a while, it's helpful to take out the trash.


----------



## 14642

BuickGN said:


> Thanks to Niebur3 on here, I found that you can pull the clock display out and slide a speaker in from the front instead of trying to get it in that small grill up top. Tons of space in there except for the depth. No cutting or modification required.
> 
> I might take the center down to the midbass crossover point just for fun. It just sounds so good right now I'm scared of changing anything. For the first time ever I'm 99% happy with the setup.


You can also try compromising by raising the midbass crossover. I know, that's heresy around these parts. I do float and so does a duck. A witch is lighter than a duck so I must be a witch. 

Honestly, there's very little difference between 70 and 100Hz in this particular instance. The thing to avoid is a center that's a 2" with a sensitivity rating of 78dB 1W/1M and a continuous average power handling limit of 20 watts trying to play 100Hz simply because a 1-watt measurement says it can do it with 8" midbass drivers playing down to 50Hz.


----------



## AndyInOC

Quick question. For those of us still playing with sub/midbass blend do you flip the polarity of the sub before or after the sweeps?


----------



## 14642

One way will be correct and the other not correct. I suggest running calibration one way, listening for a little while and then running it after reversing the polarity. Choose the one that sounds best.

Or, make a CD with pink noise between 60 and 200 Hz. Then, choose the poilarity (after the process above) that provides the loudest output with that test disc.


----------



## necrophidious

Is it possible a MS-8 is just not suited for the acoustic space of a particular vehicle? Does anyone have (or has heard) a MINI with a successful MS-8 install? After a week of following this thread, and endless trial and error testing, I am ready to swap for a Bit One.


----------



## BuickGN

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> NO, there's no fuzzy logic or atrificial intelligence. If I knew how to do that, I'd go work for NASA. The correction filter is really long and is stored in memory. Each time you run setup, the new filter is written over the old one. They aren't always the same length (amount of data), so repeated calibrations can leave a small trail of extra stuff. Every once in a while, it's helpful to take out the trash.


I *think* I understand what you're saying. Can you dumb it down just a little more for those of us that are extra slow?


Andy Wehmeyer said:


> You can also try compromising by raising the midbass crossover. I know, that's heresy around these parts. I do float and so does a duck. A witch is lighter than a duck so I must be a witch.
> 
> Honestly, there's very little difference between 70 and 100Hz in this particular instance. The thing to avoid is a center that's a 2" with a sensitivity rating of 78dB 1W/1M and a continuous average power handling limit of 20 watts trying to play 100Hz simply because a 1-watt measurement says it can do it with 8" midbass drivers playing down to 50Hz.



I will try that as soon as I get home, bring the midbass up to 100hz from 72hz and the center down from 120 to 100hz. I already cross mine pretty high compared to most around here. I'll have to see if my 12W6 in infinite baffle form will play that high. If not, the Tempest X goes in next weekend. That might solve the door panel vibrations I'm having and if I can take some of the stress off of the midbasses, that would be nice too.

One question though, will it matter if I cross my midbass at 100hz/12-18db and my center 100hz/24db?

I'm just so happy with the current tune I'm afraid to change anything. Is there a way to save it so I can go back if needed? I'm not real familiar with the favorites and if they actually save a tune or just the settings.

Thanks again for your help.


----------



## 14642

necrophidious said:


> Is it possible a MS-8 is just not suited for the acoustic space of a particular vehicle? Does anyone have (or has heard) a MINI with a successful MS-8 install? After a week of following this thread, and endless trial and error testing, I am ready to swap for a Bit One.


the entire proof of concept for MS-8 was developed using my old Mini Cooper S. Yes, I've heard one work pefectly in a Mini--every day. 


Necro, send me a PM and I'll help you.


----------



## 14642

BuickGN said:


> I *think* I understand what you're saying. Can you dumb it down just a little more for those of us that are extra slow?
> 
> 
> 
> I will try that as soon as I get home, bring the midbass up to 100hz from 72hz and the center down from 120 to 100hz. I already cross mine pretty high compared to most around here. I'll have to see if my 12W6 in infinite baffle form will play that high. If not, the Tempest X goes in next weekend. That might solve the door panel vibrations I'm having and if I can take some of the stress off of the midbasses, that would be nice too.
> 
> One question though, will it matter if I cross my midbass at 100hz/12-18db and my center 100hz/24db?
> 
> I'm just so happy with the current tune I'm afraid to change anything. Is there a way to save it so I can go back if needed? I'm not real familiar with the favorites and if they actually save a tune or just the settings.
> 
> Thanks again for your help.


The favorites just save your settings. The acoustic tuning should be pretty consistent--It always has been when I tune with MS-8.


----------



## Gary Mac

Im just looking for a confirmation on this.

Im currently running two way front (ch 1-4), sides (ch 5/6), Sub (ch 7/8) and center off MS8 internal amp. 

I want to now amp my center after MS8, so I am planning to do the following:
Two way front (ch 1-4)
Sides (Ch 5/6)
Center (mono ch 7)
sub (mono ch 8)

Could someone that has done this please confirm this is correct?


----------



## Bluenote

BuickGN said:


> Thank you for the input. I'll try lowering the center high pass tomorrow. The reason I didn't want to push the limit was I remember Andy saying that it was important to not highpass it lower than what it can play easily. Being a cheap mid I was a little worried but it's worth a try, can't hurt anything. Plus being powered off of the MS8 like yours I doubt there's any chance of damaging it.
> 
> How do you like the Maximo? Now that I know I like the center I'm going to be looking for something better and I'm clueless at this point where to start. Only problem is 2" is about as deep as I can go. Pulling out the factory clock and AC vent covers exposes a cavern under the stock center grill. I could probably fit a 10" speaker in the dash. The only problem is getting it past 3" of AC ducting. That's where the depth requirement comes in. If it wasn't for that I could practically mount a shallow sub in there.
> 
> Thanks again.


The Maximo is nice; adds good clarity and blends with the mids/tweets in A-Pillar. I had minimal depth too but wanted an all Morel front stage and the Maximo was best for the application given the depth restrictions. In the near future I am going to see if we can get a Morel Integra Ovation 5.25 in there and put 150-200 watts on it LOL. Not for just loudness but headroom. I find that the MS-8 really keeps everything well balanced. But for now the Maximo on MS-8 power is great.


----------



## quality_sound

Gary Mac said:


> Im just looking for a confirmation on this.
> 
> Im currently running two way front (ch 1-4), sides (ch 5/6), Sub (ch 7/8) and center off MS8 internal amp.
> 
> I want to now amp my center after MS8, so I am planning to do the following:
> Two way front (ch 1-4)
> Sides (Ch 5/6)
> Center (mono ch 7)
> sub (mono ch 8)
> 
> Could someone that has done this please confirm this is correct?


There is no "correct" since you can assign any channel to do anything.


----------



## m0sdef

Thanks to Andy and everyone who's contributed this thread. I've finally been able to get my system the best it's sounded with the ms-8.


----------



## 14642

m0sdef said:


> Thanks to Andy and everyone who's contributed this thread. I've finally been able to get my system the best it's sounded with the ms-8.


You're welcome and "thanks" from me to the rest of you.


----------



## 14642

Gary Mac said:


> Im just looking for a confirmation on this.
> 
> Im currently running two way front (ch 1-4), sides (ch 5/6), Sub (ch 7/8) and center off MS8 internal amp.
> 
> I want to now amp my center after MS8, so I am planning to do the following:
> Two way front (ch 1-4)
> Sides (Ch 5/6)
> Center (mono ch 7)
> sub (mono ch 8)
> 
> Could someone that has done this please confirm this is correct?


Correct!


----------



## Gary Mac

quality_sound said:


> There is no "correct" since you can assign any channel to do anything.


Actually, I think sub and center have certain requirements.


----------



## BuickGN

Gary Mac said:


> Actually, I think sub and center have certain requirements.


That's what I was thinking. Sub has to be #7 or #8 from what I remember.


----------



## 14642

BuickGN said:


> That's what I was thinking. Sub has to be #7 or #8 from what I remember.


Not on the outputs. Only on the inputs. When MS-8 does it's UN-EQ, it has to see a high frequency channel before the sub channel. Putting Subs on 7 and/or 8 ensures this. On the output, it deosn't matter. Any channel can be anything.


----------



## JJAZ

BuickGN said:


> I'm just so happy with the current tune I'm afraid to change anything. Is there a way to save it so I can go back if needed?


That should be easy. Just do a new calibration from your drivers seat, but storing it as one of the other seat positions. Voila, you will now have two tunings for the same seat, your old one and the new.


----------



## Tendean17

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> That's why the manual and the display call it "Driver's Seat" and not "Right front Seat". This way, it's supposed to be completely seamless no matter where in the car you sit to drive.


Andy .. 
After about 3 days i've married with MS-8 .. 
All the tuning seems looks correct .. Channel selection is correct .. Output Diagnostic confirm that my connections and channel assignments are correct.. right is in the right and left is in the left .. before i proceed to the next step (Acoustic Calibration) .. after calibration the result is greattt .. never have system like that before. 

I never touch my head unit setup again .. balance knop and others except volume only. Until i play my IASCA Competition Disc that check Right and Left Channel..  .. actually i make a wrong connection from my aftermarket head unit RCA front output to the MS-8 input.. My front right output is connected to MS-8 line input 1 and my front left output is connected to MS-8 line input 2. 

*Yes.. this is my fault.*
I just wanna others to check balance knop in The Head Unit to make sure ALL connections are correct .. because it almost can't be detected by hearing the favourite songs only. 

Maybe you can add a little notes in User Guide :
*Connecting an aftermarket head unit*
"_If you're connecting the MS-8 with an aftermarket head unit that has RCA-type outputs, connect the head unit's front left and front right outputs to the MS-8's line inputs 1 and 2 only... etc.._" 
With .. Note : You have to make sure that your head unit's RCA front left output must be connected to the MS-8's line inputs 1 and your head unit's RCA front right output must be connected to the MS-8's line inputs 2.

Thanks and sorry if i make wrong again.


----------



## Tendean17

To day a see the MS-Gr8 in phase and out of phase steering using IASCA Competition Disc .. "My voice is in Phase now" and "My voice is Out of Phase now" .. WOW !
When Out of Phase .. all sound is steered to my Rear Speaker and no sound in my Front Speaker. 

That's fantastic.


----------



## 14642

Tendean17 said:


> To day a see the MS-Gr8 in phase and out of phase steering using IASCA Competition Disc .. "My voice is in Phase now" and "My voice is Out of Phase now" .. WOW !
> When Out of Phase .. all sound is steered to my Rear Speaker and no sound in my Front Speaker.
> 
> That's fantastic.


Logic7 steers out of phase (180 degrees) info to the rear.

I'm glad this has finally worked out for you. Cool!


----------



## kaigoss69

JJAZ said:


> That should be easy. Just do a new calibration from your drivers seat, but storing it as one of the other seat positions. Voila, you will now have two tunings for the same seat, your old one and the new.


When you re-calibrate, its says "all settings will be lost". How do you get around that? Anyway, how do you store a calibration as a seating position? I don't think this is possible but I'd love to be proven wrong!


----------



## t3sn4f2

JJAZ said:


> That should be easy. Just do a new calibration from your drivers seat, but storing it as one of the other seat positions. Voila, you will now have two tunings for the same seat, your old one and the new.


Can't play with xover points though. Things like "could I have crossed that tweeter over a little lower" or "that mid a little higher" are out of the question.

But like Andy said, calibration should be consistent if nothing is changed.


----------



## JJAZ

t3sn4f2 said:


> Can't play with xover points though. Things like "could I have crossed that tweeter over a little lower" or "that mid a little higher" are out of the question.


True.. It would have been if the calibration data was not dependent on the x-over settings, to enable toying with x-overs without having to recalibrate.


----------



## 14642

JJAZ said:


> True.. It would have been if the calibration data was not dependent on the x-over settings, to enable toying with x-overs without having to recalibrate.


Except that moving the crossover points makes the correction filter invalid. Crossovers should be set for driver safety and for dispersion characteristics. Equalizers are for frequency response shaping.


----------



## Briznow

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> My suggestion for downmixing was that if you have recordings that include real surround effects (audience all around you and a good sense of the room), MS-8's logic7 will play that back in full surround. If you have a DVD player in your car, choose the 2-channel downmix that's on the CD. That includes the 6 audio streams mixed in to the 2-channel track.
> 
> If you don't have a DVD player, look on google for a piece of software that will downmix for you. Then, you can put the full surround track on your iPod or other portable and have real surround in the car. Try a gooc concert video...


Can you give some more specific guidance on this, Andy? I've tried for two days to get that thing to produce surround sound to no avail. I'm using fronts, rears, center, and sub with Logic7 activated.

- I've tried downmixing 5.1 DTS files to stereo via Foobar's 5.1 to stereo 
plugin.

- I've tried downmixing SACDs.

- I've tried Hybrid SACDs.

- I've tried ripping DVD-Audio discs to 2-channel with DVD Audio Extractor.

- I've tried ripping DVD-Audio discs to 6-channel with DVD Audio Extractor 
and then downmixing with Foobar.

I burned all the .wav files to CD rather than using a portable device, but I can't imagine how that would make a difference. 

What am I doing wrong here?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Briznow said:


> Can you give some more specific guidance on this, Andy? I've tried for two days to get that thing *to produce surround sound *to no avail. I'm using fronts, rears, center, and sub with Logic7 activated.
> 
> - I've tried downmixing 5.1 DTS files to stereo via Foobar's 5.1 to stereo
> plugin.
> 
> - I've tried downmixing SACDs.
> 
> - I've tried Hybrid SACDs.
> 
> - I've tried ripping DVD-Audio discs to 2-channel with DVD Audio Extractor.
> 
> - I've tried ripping DVD-Audio discs to 6-channel with DVD Audio Extractor
> and then downmixing with Foobar.
> 
> I burned all the .wav files to CD rather than using a portable device, but I can't imagine how that would make a difference.
> 
> What am I doing wrong here?


How would you classify "surround sound" as being?


----------



## 14642

I've used this one and also used a Lexicon MC-12

iPodHD 1.3.0.0 review and download.


----------



## quietfly

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well...none of this is going to be super-great for the passenger. Are you mostly concerned with performance in the driver's seat or is the passenger's seat important too?


Id like good sound for both driver and front passenger, if possible.


----------



## Briznow

t3sn4f2 said:


> How would you classify "surround sound" as being?


In the context of the MS-8, I'd look at it like this:

With a 2-channel track, the MS-8 steers certain out-of-phase information to rear speakers, which seems to reinforce the center as well as create a little bit of spatial sense. It seems to be taking 2-channel information and processing/steering it in such a way that it creates a particular, though subtle, effect.

If I'm downmixing a 6-channel track to stereo, I'd expect that the elements that would be steered rear from the downmixed stream would be those effects (whether they be sound effects, audience sounds, etc.) that were reproduced, in the original 5.1 mix, as individual and separate elements by the side/rear speakers. In other words, Logic 7 would extract those peripheral streams from the downmix and steer them rear, rather than just creating some out-of-phase (or whatever) ghost image of what's playing through the fronts.


----------



## BuickGN

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> You can also try compromising by raising the midbass crossover. I know, that's heresy around these parts. I do float and so does a duck. A witch is lighter than a duck so I must be a witch.
> 
> Honestly, there's very little difference between 70 and 100Hz in this particular instance. The thing to avoid is a center that's a 2" with a sensitivity rating of 78dB 1W/1M and a continuous average power handling limit of 20 watts trying to play 100Hz simply because a 1-watt measurement says it can do it with 8" midbass drivers playing down to 50Hz.


I did this today. Set the sub/midbass at 100hz/18db, center 100hz/24db. It made a very nice improvement. The center blends more now. Even if I turn it way up it still blends. The whole system just sounds better. This is with a 15" Tempest X running 100hz, who would've thought. I have very limited listening time right now but I'll report back in a few days. Thanks for the 100th time, great advice as usual.


----------



## JJAZ

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Except that moving the crossover points makes the correction filter invalid. Crossovers should be set for driver safety and for dispersion characteristics. Equalizers are for frequency response shaping.


Well.. I understand why it is so in the MS8, but it really is a matter of "algorithm implementation order". The correction filter could just as well be applied as a separate entity in the DSP, thus making the calibration a one-timer.

This is actually how it is done in the DSPre (HOLM Acoustics). That way one could play around with the crossover points at will, without the need for a new calibration.


----------



## Tendean17

JJAZ said:


> Well.. I understand why it is so in the MS8, but it really is a matter of "algorithm implementation order". The correction filter could just as well be applied as a separate entity in the DSP, thus making the calibration a one-timer.
> 
> This is actually how it is done in the DSPre (HOLM Acoustics). That way one could play around with the crossover points at will, without the need for a new calibration.


Andy already explained more about this and why MS-8 must do that.



gutz said:


> So , After installing my MS-8 and having tons of fun with it I decided to open a feature request thread ...
> 
> 5.*Change One setting in Channel Assignment / Crossover*
> Corresponding to no. 3 and 4
> I would love to have the option to change only one setting in the crossover instead of going through all of the proccess all over again
> So something like a menu with the current crossover point and the ability to change it at will would be great
> 
> 7.*Run Calibration To A Specified Position*
> If I'm testing a crossover setting and re-calibrating
> I'm usually only calibrating to my seat
> I want to be able to continue from there to the other positions if I like the setup without calibrating once again from my seat ...





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'll try to address all of these: ...
> 
> 5. Ain't gonna happen. The crossover point that you choose is the starting point for the entire auto calibration. This is differnt than a standard practice with manual tuning. After you enter the crossover, the EQ adjusts the frequency response based on measured acoustic response. If you move the crossover, the acoustic response changes and the EQ would be "invalidated". The point is that tuning with crossovers is a bad practice. Crossovers should be set for driver safety and to keep drivers playing within their piston range (where dispersion is wide). EQ is for tuning.
> 
> 7. Unfortunately, this isn't posisble. MS-8 doesn't save measurements, it saves correction filters. There isn't enough memory to save all the measurements, which is what would be required to allow the unit to run the optimization and then re-enter the calibration phase of setup ...





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> 5. You may not want to enter all of the settings again, but this is what MS-8 requires. Sorry.
> 
> 7. Each optimization is a unique set of correction filters which are generated when you select done. Once the optimizations are calculated, the measurement data is thrown away.


----------



## AL_G300C

I was wondering if I can take the video signal from to the ms-8 and sent to my AVIC-Z130BT HU screen with mini jack femail to RCA on the video input. I think I rather see my adjustments and volume on the 9 " screen. resolution may be the issue? Any one try this ?


----------



## SKG

AL_G300C said:


> I was wondering if I can take the video signal from to the ms-8 and sent to my AVIC-Z130BT HU screen with mini jack femail to RCA on the video input. I think I rather see my adjustments and volume on the 9 " screen. resolution may be the issue? Any one try this ?


Hi, I'm not an expert, but according to the manual it looks like the screen also contains the receiver for the remote. So it would not be possible to use the screen on the AVIC instead.


----------



## AL_G300C

ok then if i'm reading this right...\

the screen is hard wired with IR to the MS-8 unit and so the remote is not RF right to the MS-8 unit.

but maybe i'm not understanding this right. cause if It was a RF set up the screen it comes with wound not effect the remote signal if it wasn't hooked up.


----------



## dscoo

Hi all,
I've had my MS8 for a few months now, and recently have switched the sub to a different amp. The amp is a Boston gt-28 with faulty crossovers so the sub is running active off the ms8. 
The problem i've found in my unit is when i go to output diagnostics and test sub, it outputs a full-range signal. When i also goto acoustic calibration it sweeps all the way past 500hz when i've set the crossover to 80hz. 
Is this a problem with installation or is the unit faulty? I have already tried dong a factory reset to no avail.


----------



## acidbass303

dscoo said:


> Hi all,
> I've had my MS8 for a few months now, and recently have switched the sub to a different amp. The amp is a Boston gt-28 with faulty crossovers so the sub is running active off the ms8.
> The problem i've found in my unit is when i go to output diagnostics and test sub, it outputs a full-range signal. When i also goto acoustic calibration it sweeps all the way past 500hz when i've set the crossover to 80hz.
> Is this a problem with installation or is the unit faulty? I have already tried dong a factory reset to no avail.


That behaviour is totally normal. Thats how it works.


----------



## t3sn4f2

AL_G300C said:


> I was wondering if I can take the video signal from to the ms-8 and sent to my AVIC-Z130BT HU screen with mini jack femail to RCA on the video input. I think I rather see my adjustments and volume on the 9 " screen. resolution may be the issue? Any one try this ?


Absolutely not possible. That connector carries a signal that is much more complicated that a composite video feed. It's a type of specialize circuit to circuit signal, i2c I believe but I could be wrong.

I²C - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## jsampsell

I got my MS-8 installed this weekend and have tinkered with it a few times. So far I am quite pleased with the outcome. I really like how the bass seems to fill in the entire interior instead of being localized to the rear. Unfortunately, I can't seem to figure out how to make it punch a little better. The low end is very full but not punchy really. I'm also having a very hard time getting a good EQ. The trouble is the mids. It may be a limitation of the type of speakers I have but I had a great tune without the MS-8 so I know I should be able to get it out of the MS-8. I'm running JL Audio TR570-CXi speakers in the four doors and two 8" subs in the rear deck off of an Infinity Reference 5350a 5-channel amp.

I have one question, though. Why do you have to have side speakers set in order for you to be able to set rear speakers? I have my front door speakers run to the fronts on the amp and the rear door speakers run to the rears on the amp. So I have front and rear speakers. I don't have side speakers. I'm actually not exactly sure what side speakers would be. And I'm really puzzled as to why you would be required to have "side" speakers set in order for "rear" speakers to become available to set. Very peculiar. Am I missing something here?

When I noticed that rears couldn't be assigned unless sides were assigned I decided to tell the system that sides were being used and then I assigned them to outputs 5 and 6 since I don't use those. That means I had it set as this:

1 - FL
2 - FR
3 - RL
4 - RR
5 - SL (nothing hooked up though)
6 - SR (nothing hooked up though)
7 - Sub1
8 - Empty

I just re-ran the output setup and told it that sides were used but rears were not. So that looks like this:

1 - FL
2 - FR
3 - SL
4 - SR
5 - Empty
6 - Empty
7 - Sub1
8 - Empty

I didn't notice too much of a difference and I still have the problem with EQing the mids. I use a variety of material to tweak my EQ. I listen to a very wide variety of genres and I like to listen to a few different genres during tuning to get an acceptable balance. Do any of you see anything out of the ordinary that I'm doing or have any recommendations? I have read through the thread and I don't know what 2v gain is or I'd try that too. 

Anyhow, I just want to get it sounding it's best and I'm not convinced that I've tapped it's true capabilities yet. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Briznow

The manual says that if you only have rear speakers and not side speakers, enter your rear speaker in the side speaker setup and leave the rear speakers set to "none."


----------



## jsampsell

Briznow said:


> The manual says that if you only have rear speakers and not side speakers, enter your rear speaker in the side speaker setup and leave the rear speakers set to "none."


Ah, I obviously didn't see that. Thanks! I still have issues with the mids. I'm tweaking and tweaking so I'll see what I can come up with. Again, any recommendations would be welcome.


----------



## kaigoss69

jsampsell said:


> Ah, I obviously didn't see that. Thanks! I still have issues with the mids. I'm tweaking and tweaking so I'll see what I can come up with. Again, any recommendations would be welcome.


If you don't have dedicated midbass drivers on separate amp channels then I would think your only option is to make post calibration adjustments through the 31 band EQ.


----------



## subwoofery

quietfly said:


> Id like good sound for both driver and front passenger, if possible.


Simple answer to your simple question: you need a center channel.  
There's no other way... 

Kelvin


----------



## eficalibrator

Andy, thanks again for a great product. I got it up and running last night in my Corvette. Install was straight forward and absolutely noise free using the low level outputs from the stock head unit.

I ran it with only 2-way stereo (B&G Neo3PDRs and Dayton 8" mids) and a single IDQ10v3. Crossover works great, imaging and frequency response are definitely better compared to the defeat position. I did end up cranking up the sub output and the 31 band still needed some tweaking to tame some resonances, but at least it was an option.

Just as an experiment, I'm going to reinstall the factory (paper cone) center and rear speakers to see how good the MS-8 can make them sound in logic 7 mode. I've traditionally been a stereo only guy and concentrated my efforts on making the front stage shine and not wasting time on rear fill. I guess we'll see how much the processing can fix...


----------



## CraigE

eficalibrator said:


> Just as an experiment, I'm going to reinstall the factory (paper cone) center and rear speakers to see how good the MS-8 can make them sound in logic 7 mode. I've traditionally been a stereo only guy and concentrated my efforts on making the front stage shine and not wasting time on rear fill. I guess we'll see how much the processing can fix...


You ditched the horns ??
I think you'll like the L7, and be upgrading the factory center and rears.
The ambience was the first thing that I noticed.
Please report back.

Edit; That's right, you did replace the horns. I forgot.


----------



## acidbass303

CraigE said:


> You ditched the horns ??
> I think you'll like the L7, and be upgrading the factory center and rears.
> The ambience was the first thing that I noticed.
> Please report back.


^+1 definitely


----------



## jsampsell

Thanks for the help I've received here. Unfortunately, after about 100+ tests, even with some of the really cool things it can do, I think I'm just going to uninstall this and sell it. Not for me, I guess. Maybe I just don't have enough of a system for this to really shine. Oh well. I got a great deal on it and I know I can probably get at least what I paid for it so its no real loss. It was fun to try, though.


----------



## eficalibrator

I have a couple sets of 5.25" mids (a/d/s/ and Alpine DDDrive) sitting in the cabinet from previous systems that I might swap into the rear. I know they won't have great high end, but for rear fill I suspect they still do better than the OE units. I don't have to do any soldering to drop the stock speakers back in, so they'll definitely be first. I'm just curious what I can get out of the stuff I have on hand with processing before ordering a new set of coaxials or something from PE. Andy piqued my interest when he talked about experimenting with uber-crappy/cheap speakers and seeing what the MS-8 could do to "fix" them.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I've used this one and also used a Lexicon MC-12
> 
> iPodHD 1.3.0.0 review and download.


I tried installing this program but ran into an error and it won't run on my computer. Anyone know of a similar program that can downmix DVD audio into 2 channel audio?


----------



## quietfly

are you using win 7 or vista?


----------



## kaigoss69

quietfly said:


> are you using win 7 or vista?


I have Windows 7.


----------



## quietfly

what error are you getting, it installed on my home, work and latop flawlessly....


----------



## eficalibrator

I wrapped up my install last night and finally got some drive time with it. I still like the Logic7 setting, even with the stock paper cone center and rear speakers.

It sounds better than I expected, but the soundstage isn't always on top of the dash with every disc. It appears as though the stage height is sensitive to the mixing. Live Pink Floyd is right on the windshield, but Kid Rock in the studio was centered across the dash.

Swapping back to stereo (Logic 7 off) really means stereo F+R. If you want to listen to only your separates and sub, you need to adjust the MS-8's fader fully to the front and turn down the center. Doing this seems to get you back to the "simple" speaker layout that still sounds really great with most music.

It fits in the footwell of a C6 corvette with some trimming of the plastic bracket that originally held the much smaller Bose amp. It's a snug fit, but I'm glad I didn't have to use up real estate elsewhere.


----------



## CraigE

YES.. It is a snug fit !!!
I was a little concerned about the heat, although there were no problems.
I added 1/2" spacers to hold the foot rest out, and allow some air space to the top face of the unit. It's been in for almost a year with no heat problems.

Logic 7 took a little "getting used to", but now it's on all of the time.
Ambience is much improved in the small cabin of the C6.
The stage stays above the dash, but that is likely due to the tweeter location. The tweeters are in pods above the dash near the A-pillars.

C6 passenger footwell with foot rest folded down;


----------



## MattyKHZ

MattyKHZ said:


> Have posted on here a few times and finally got to hear a MS8 this weekend so think I am keeping it for my Mini Install. I got to hear in 3 way active and sub in addition to Logic 7 including centre. I liked both and really liked what Logic 7 brings to the experience. No substitue for listening to it 1st hand.
> 
> My question specifically relates to the use of the Morel Supremo 6 and Picollo Tweeter in a MS8 set up. I have the CDM54 to make it 3 way Active if needed but should I stick with 2 Way as the Supremo is designed?
> 
> Mini OEM HU will feed the MS8 and that will feed 2 x Denon DCA70BL amps. So have approx 120W per channel and 8 channels of amplification.
> 
> Being a Mini I have no real boot space for sub so need a boot. I can go 2 way Active perhaps using 1 amp to feed higher power to the Supremo 6 hoping this will provide as low as I need without a sub, 2 channels of thr other amp to the Picollos and my last 2 channels to rear Morel Tempo 6x9 in standard rear lcoation for Logic 7 use.
> 
> If I cannot get low enough from the Supremo I would then have to substitue the Morel 6x9 with something like the CDT HD690CF Sub. This would mean no rear speaker for Logic 7 use.
> 
> And that is the dilema. I either end up with Active Front End (2 way or 3 way) and rear Logic 7 speakers or same front end and 6x9 subs so no rear speakers for Logic 7.
> 
> As more people in the US have experience with the MS8 and Supremos in either 2 or 3 way format I was hoping I could get some feedback and advice.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Matt.


Slight change to my system.

My installer recommends the Morel Integra Ovation Point Source 4" coaxial for rear instead of my Morel Tempo 6x9. 

What crossover point should be used for this?

Just had a call to say cd is blank so luckily found the WAV file and tips under the installation section on JL's website.


----------



## kaigoss69

MattyKHZ said:


> Slight change to my system.
> 
> My installer recommends the Morel Integra Ovation Point Source 4" coaxial for rear instead of my Morel Tempo 6x9.
> 
> What crossover point should be used for this?
> 
> Just had a call to say cd is blank so luckily found the WAV file and tips under the installation section on JL's website.


I believe Andy said to cross the rears at 100Hz. Mine are crossed at 150Hz, just because the 4" OEM speakers can't handle 100Hz.


----------



## MattyKHZ

Think the Morel Integra Ovation can handle 100 Hz so will try that.

For some reason there is a whine via the tweeters. Tried searching and a few seem to have experienced this. 

Is there a definitive answer as I hear thinks about grounds and also capacitors to be used on the tweeters?

Also think my installer has skipped the cd part due to the blank cd. I believe this is only for non OEM HU's and cd must be used to acurately set up the MS8? I have burnt one in windows media player to take with me but he has a mac so told him how to do this via itunes.

Installer also commented on noise floor. Is this down to the S/N Ratio and guess this will never be as good as a Bit One or similar with higher S/N Ratio?

And lastly my Morel Supremo Picollo tweeters seem to large for the A Pillar in the mini so may have to go for MT23 instead which fit in the standard Mini Hifi A Pillars with tweeter mount.


----------



## asat11

I had a whine in my install, cleaned the ground point for the MS-8 really well and it went away....


----------



## acidbass303

No whine or noise floor here.
Check all grounds and gain adjustments.


----------



## AL_G300C

What would be the application to use the other 6 low level inputs (RCA) since we only use 2 for a after-market HU ?


----------



## bengerman

hey guys, i just ordered a ms-8 from ebay. i am running it with a alpine 9887. as only a pair of RCAs are needed from the deck to the proc, do i have to change the settings on the alpine deck? F/R/Sub-W OR 3 way and another toggle to choose NORM or EQ/DIV. 

thanks
Ben


----------



## AL_G300C

try this again




AL_G300C said:


> What would be the application to use the other 6 low level inputs (RCA) since we only use 2 for a after-market HU ?


----------



## AL_G300C

t3sn4f2 said:


> Absolutely not possible. That connector carries a signal that is much more complicated that a composite video feed. It's a type of specialize circuit to circuit signal, i2c I believe but I could be wrong.
> 
> I²C - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


that too bad cause while im driving it a little small to see screen would of been nice to have it on a 7" or 9" screen on a HU


----------



## sicilianslice

*Help!!!*

Recently installed an MS-8 along with an amp and new componenets into my 2007 BMW 525i. Here are the details

-JBL MS-8
-Rainbow SLC 210.25 NG 4" components (Passive crossover @ 3500hz)
-Stock Underseat Woofers
-Stock Rears (running off the ms8)
-JL xd600/6 Amp -(2 Channels on the Rainbows, 4 channels bridged to the stock underseat woofers)

Overall, I am not very impressed so far. Low end is good considering im putting 200 watts each on the stock woofers. Highs seem ok if not a bit harsh.

The problem seems to be the MIDS. 

They are absolutely awful. I have run the setup about 20 times, and in each case, severe EQ'ing is needed to get anything resembling a flat response. Most bands betwen 1kz and 8kz are between -6 - -10. After this, some songs sound OK, but others just sound hollow and lifeless. It actually becomes very fatuiging after about 10 minutes of listening.

Here is my config setup

-Input sensitivity on JL amp about a quarter of the way (should be 2v)
- 49 clicks on the headunit for OK signal (47 produces a LOW signal)
-Front stage is setup as 2-way (Subsonic filter @ 20hz , crossover at (3600hz)
- rears are labeled as sides and are crossed at 110hz.

Most of the time the soundstage sounds great. Great seperation, voice right in front of me. But after such severe eq'ing, voices dont sound natural at all. I cant believe how off the eq is considering that is one of the main feature of the MS-8. 

One thing i found odd was the crossover between front LO and HI fronts. When I first ran the setup, I set subsonic filter at 20hz, and i set the lo/hi crossover at 150hz, believing this was the crossover between the underseat woofer and the components, with the passive crossover handling the 150 highpass. Oddly, this resulted in almost no bass. It was only after setting the crossover closer the passive's that i got good bass. This doesnt make sense to me, and i feel could be where the problem and solution lies. But who knows.

If anyone else has had this problem and / or can provide some insight, I really would appreciate it.


----------



## ramsa1

Guys, I have my MS8 installed and it sounds good. 2 way fronts, rears no center and a 12inch sub in a sealed enclosure.
Today I was decided to switch my sub box position in the trunk from front facing to rear facing. After acoustic calibration, sub is much louder and doesn't blend as well. Sounds as if the sub is overpowering the fronts and also my midbass decreased. Imaging is good though. 
I tried acoustic calibration at various volumes but result is about the same. 

All is well after repositioning the sub front facing. Any reason why this may be?

Oh and the car is a 03 Mitsubishi lancer sedan.


----------



## n_olympios

bengerman said:


> hey guys, i just ordered a ms-8 from ebay. i am running it with a alpine 9887. as only a pair of RCAs are needed from the deck to the proc, do i have to change the settings on the alpine deck? F/R/Sub-W OR 3 way and another toggle to choose NORM or EQ/DIV.
> 
> thanks
> Ben


F/R/SW and normal. And obviously, you choose either the Front or Rear outputs, not the SW ones. Oh and remember to disengage any filtering in the HU (highpass/lowpass etc).


----------



## bengerman

n_olympios said:


> F/R/SW and normal. And obviously, you choose either the Front or Rear outputs, not the SW ones. Oh and remember to disengage any filtering in the HU (highpass/lowpass etc).


thanks! ill give it a go when it arrives cheers


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: Help!!!*



sicilianslice said:


> Recently installed an MS-8 along with an amp and new componenets into my 2007 BMW 525i. Here are the details
> 
> -JBL MS-8
> -Rainbow SLC 210.25 NG 4" components (Passive crossover @ 3500hz)
> -Stock Underseat Woofers
> -Stock Rears (running off the ms8)
> -JL xd600/6 Amp -(2 Channels on the Rainbows, 4 channels bridged to the stock underseat woofers)
> 
> Overall, I am not very impressed so far. Low end is good considering im putting 200 watts each on the stock woofers. Highs seem ok if not a bit harsh.
> 
> The problem seems to be the MIDS.
> 
> They are absolutely awful. I have run the setup about 20 times, and in each case, severe EQ'ing is needed to get anything resembling a flat response. Most bands betwen 1kz and 8kz are between -6 - -10. After this, some songs sound OK, but others just sound hollow and lifeless. It actually becomes very fatuiging after about 10 minutes of listening.
> 
> Here is my config setup
> 
> -Input sensitivity on JL amp about a quarter of the way (should be 2v)
> - 49 clicks on the headunit for OK signal (47 produces a LOW signal)
> -Front stage is setup as 2-way (Subsonic filter @ 20hz , crossover at (3600hz)
> - rears are labeled as sides and are crossed at 110hz.
> 
> Most of the time the soundstage sounds great. Great seperation, voice right in front of me. But after such severe eq'ing, voices dont sound natural at all. I cant believe how off the eq is considering that is one of the main feature of the MS-8.
> 
> One thing i found odd was the crossover between front LO and HI fronts. When I first ran the setup, I set subsonic filter at 20hz, and i set the lo/hi crossover at 150hz, believing this was the crossover between the underseat woofer and the components, with the passive crossover handling the 150 highpass. Oddly, this resulted in almost no bass. It was only after setting the crossover closer the passive's that i got good bass. This doesnt make sense to me, and i feel could be where the problem and solution lies. But who knows.
> 
> If anyone else has had this problem and / or can provide some insight, I really would appreciate it.


Why did you set the crossover point for the fronts on the MS-8 at 3600Hz? The Rainbow passive already does that. All you did setting the MS-8 at 3600Hz was electrically carve the mids completely out of the system. With the way it's set right now you're running the underseat subs, a HUGE gap, and the the tweeters from 3.6KHz and up. 

The correct setup for your fronts should be 1-way since those channels are only driving the Rainbows, which are technically one driver since you're using the passive. After you change the fronts to 1-way, change the crossover to somewhere in the 200Hz-250Hz range. Same for the rears and center. The subs should be running up to 250Hz since you're not running a true sub.


----------



## quality_sound

ramsa1 said:


> Guys, I have my MS8 installed and it sounds good. 2 way fronts, rears no center and a 12inch sub in a sealed enclosure.
> Today I was decided to switch my sub box position in the trunk from front facing to rear facing. After acoustic calibration, sub is much louder and doesn't blend as well. *Sounds as if the sub is overpowering the fronts and also my midbass decreased.* Imaging is good though.
> I tried acoustic calibration at various volumes but result is about the same.
> 
> All is well after repositioning the sub front facing. Any reason why this may be?
> 
> Oh and the car is a 03 Mitsubishi lancer sedan.


That's exactly what happened. You created a phase problem.


----------



## an2ny888

am planning on using the internal amps in the ms8 to power my front mids and tweeters actively. do i have to put a cap on the tweeters? i recall someone was blowing tweeters because of turn off thumps, not sure if this issue applies if you're using the ms8 amps


----------



## kaigoss69

*Re: Help!!!*



sicilianslice said:


> Recently installed an MS-8 along with an amp and new componenets into my 2007 BMW 525i. Here are the details
> 
> -JBL MS-8
> -Rainbow SLC 210.25 NG 4" components (Passive crossover @ 3500hz)
> -Stock Underseat Woofers
> -Stock Rears (running off the ms8)
> -JL xd600/6 Amp -(2 Channels on the Rainbows, 4 channels bridged to the stock underseat woofers)
> 
> Overall, I am not very impressed so far. Low end is good considering im putting 200 watts each on the stock woofers. Highs seem ok if not a bit harsh.
> 
> The problem seems to be the MIDS.
> 
> They are absolutely awful. I have run the setup about 20 times, and in each case, severe EQ'ing is needed to get anything resembling a flat response. Most bands betwen 1kz and 8kz are between -6 - -10. After this, some songs sound OK, but others just sound hollow and lifeless. It actually becomes very fatuiging after about 10 minutes of listening.
> 
> Here is my config setup
> 
> -Input sensitivity on JL amp about a quarter of the way (should be 2v)
> - 49 clicks on the headunit for OK signal (47 produces a LOW signal)
> -Front stage is setup as 2-way (Subsonic filter @ 20hz , crossover at (3600hz)
> - rears are labeled as sides and are crossed at 110hz.
> 
> Most of the time the soundstage sounds great. Great seperation, voice right in front of me. But after such severe eq'ing, voices dont sound natural at all. I cant believe how off the eq is considering that is one of the main feature of the MS-8.
> 
> One thing i found odd was the crossover between front LO and HI fronts. When I first ran the setup, I set subsonic filter at 20hz, and i set the lo/hi crossover at 150hz, believing this was the crossover between the underseat woofer and the components, with the passive crossover handling the 150 highpass. Oddly, this resulted in almost no bass. It was only after setting the crossover closer the passive's that i got good bass. This doesnt make sense to me, and i feel could be where the problem and solution lies. But who knows.
> 
> If anyone else has had this problem and / or can provide some insight, I really would appreciate it.


The correct way to set it up is as 2-way, with the crossover around 150Hz, like you had it originally. The reason you had no bass is probably due to level matching. Adjust the gain on the amp until the white/pink noise from under the seats (during channel mapping test) is at about the same volume as the other speakers. If you set it up as 1-way, as qualitysound suggested, then the underseats become true subwoofers, and you will lose some midbass output, since it only sweeps up to 80Hz, I believe.

Edit 1: Since your front speakers are Rainbows, and not OEM, you can probably bring the x-over down a bit, say 120Hz.

Edit 2: Bring up the subsonic filter, the stock underseats will not be very happy with anything under 40Hz, especially at 200 Watts.


----------



## south east customz

Ive done alot of BMW's and the factory woofers are really not that great.
Your Rainbows being harsh? well thats what rainbows do. You really need a tune and i bet it will sound better.
try to re run setup, two way sub sonic at 20hz rears at 120hz, and same for rainbows.
honestly they will probably scream at the 120hz on the low end.
I would suggest doing either the Gladen/audio system 8 (just started using) or kicker ssmb, or even a dls 8 as a midbass. They fit pretty easy and I have used with great results.
pm me if u need further assistance


----------



## kaigoss69

south east customz said:


> Ive done alot of BMW's and the factory woofers are really not that great.
> Your Rainbows being harsh? well thats what rainbows do. You really need a tune and i bet it will sound better.
> try to re run setup, two way sub sonic at 20hz rears at 120hz, and same for rainbows.
> honestly they will probably scream at the 120hz on the low end.
> I would suggest doing either the Gladen/audio system 8 (just started using) or kicker ssmb, or even a dls 8 as a midbass. They fit pretty easy and I have used with great results.
> pm me if u need further assistance


The HiFi woofers will reportedly work well as midbass (with the proper processing). The Logic7 woofers are actually pretty good and make very good midbass drivers. Anything below 40Hz though they will balk at and if you're not careful, you will be buying new ones from BWM.

BTW, which DLS 8" woofer are you referring to? What series and MY BMW did you put these in?


----------



## south east customz

DLS iridiums, but also can use the up's (I had the iridiums lying around)
In my girls e70 with logic 7
I've done a 08 550i with the kickers
07 5 wagon with the dls's
And a handful of e90's with kickers, earth quake and most recently the gladens
(my bro in law sells bmw's)
My mid and high choice is HAT's with the dls being second


----------



## sicilianslice

Kaigoss, thanks for the reply. Turning the input sensitivity up for the underseat woofers did the trick for the setup, i just had to turn it back down after the acoustic calibration. 

I read that the stock amp was giving the underseat woofers 40 watts @ 2 ohms. I'm currently feeding each 200 watts at 2ohms. I'm thinking of giving them 100 as i might get a better result and not risk blowing them up.

Still not exactly pleased with the result, but the overly harsh mids did go away. Now i need to run setup a few more times at different volumes to see if I can get a better eq from setup, as I still need to carve out about 6-8db at 1khz-8khz to get a reasonably flat sounding response. The soundstage also seems to be a little low, in the middle of the steering wheel as opposed to on the dash. Image width does not seem to extend beyond the car, hard left and right pans sound like they are coming right from their respective drivers.


----------



## kaigoss69

sicilianslice said:


> Kaigoss, thanks for the reply. Turning the input sensitivity up for the underseat woofers did the trick for the setup, i just had to turn it back down after the acoustic calibration.
> 
> I read that the stock amp was giving the underseat woofers 40 watts @ 2 ohms. I'm currently feeding each 200 watts at 2ohms. I'm thinking of giving them 100 as i might get a better result and not risk blowing them up.
> 
> Still not exactly pleased with the result, but the overly harsh mids did go away. Now i need to run setup a few more times at different volumes to see if I can get a better eq from setup, as I still need to carve out about 6-8db at 1khz-8khz to get a reasonably flat sounding response. The soundstage also seems to be a little low, in the middle of the steering wheel as opposed to on the dash. Image width does not seem to extend beyond the car, hard left and right pans sound like they are coming right from their respective drivers.


Hmmm, a low soundstage is not a common problem with the MS-8, especially when mids and tweeters are as high up in the doors and close together as they are in the BMW. I would say make sure everything is in phase, tweeters to mids, mids to underseats, and that the overall sweep volume is not too loud and the individual sweeps are all approx. the same level. 

It seems you have the HiFi system. I have heard that the MS-8 works well with those speakers (in a 3-series, but speakers are the same as in 5 series I believe) so if everything else fails, you could try to revert back to stock and see how that sounds (using MS-8 internal amps)...


----------



## rommelrommel

an2ny888 said:


> am planning on using the internal amps in the ms8 to power my front mids and tweeters actively. do i have to put a cap on the tweeters? i recall someone was blowing tweeters because of turn off thumps, not sure if this issue applies if you're using the ms8 amps


Cap on the tweeter is always a good idea to protect them. It's not a "must" tho.


----------



## emoon3

sicilianslice said:


> Kaigoss, thanks for the reply. Turning the input sensitivity up for the underseat woofers did the trick for the setup, i just had to turn it back down after the acoustic calibration.
> 
> I read that the stock amp was giving the underseat woofers 40 watts @ 2 ohms. I'm currently feeding each 200 watts at 2ohms. I'm thinking of giving them 100 as i might get a better result and not risk blowing them up.
> 
> Still not exactly pleased with the result, but the overly harsh mids did go away. Now i need to run setup a few more times at different volumes to see if I can get a better eq from setup, as I still need to carve out about 6-8db at 1khz-8khz to get a reasonably flat sounding response. The soundstage also seems to be a little low, in the middle of the steering wheel as opposed to on the dash. Image width does not seem to extend beyond the car, hard left and right pans sound like they are coming right from their respective drivers.


Slice, I'm in Westchester County as well and would love to hear your setup. I'll be installing my MS-8 in two weeks, so I'm getting all my info straight. I've been hitting Kai up for info - he's very knowledgeable about our cars and the MS-8.

Are you getting the turn off thump/pop? Kai, did you ever get that out of your setup?


----------



## kaigoss69

Briznow said:


> Can you give some more specific guidance on this, Andy? I've tried for two days to get that thing to produce surround sound to no avail. I'm using fronts, rears, center, and sub with Logic7 activated.
> 
> - I've tried downmixing 5.1 DTS files to stereo via Foobar's 5.1 to stereo
> plugin.
> 
> - I've tried downmixing SACDs.
> 
> - I've tried Hybrid SACDs.
> 
> - I've tried ripping DVD-Audio discs to 2-channel with DVD Audio Extractor.
> 
> - I've tried ripping DVD-Audio discs to 6-channel with DVD Audio Extractor
> and then downmixing with Foobar.
> 
> I burned all the .wav files to CD rather than using a portable device, but I can't imagine how that would make a difference.
> 
> What am I doing wrong here?


Same here. Songs converted with DVD Audio Extractor sound just like the ones from CD.


----------



## Beherit

Hi all, I recently installed the ms-8 on my system which includes :

Pioneer 3350bt 
Alpine MRp-f300 50w*4 running active front only 
Pair of fsmoving air component speaker (silk dome tweets, all of em rated to 60w rms at 4ohms)
Swe-1000 alpine active sub under driver seat( I drive in the land of right hand drives)

My issue is, my left tweeter is insanely harsh!!!! I have been tinkering for a week now everyday and still it's just awfully harsh, even with moderate volume I feel my left ear being numbed out by the tweet. I have no issues with the right tweet thou, that sound great. How can I stop my left tweet from killing my left ear?


----------



## subwoofery

Beherit said:


> Hi all, I recently installed the ms-8 on my system which includes :
> 
> Pioneer 3350bt
> Alpine MRp-f300 50w*4 running active front only
> Pair of fsmoving air component speaker (silk dome tweets, all of em rated to 60w rms at 4ohms)
> Swe-1000 alpine active sub under driver seat( I drive in the land of right hand drives)
> 
> *My issue is, my left tweeter is insanely harsh!!!!* I have been tinkering for a week now everyday and still it's just awfully harsh, even with moderate volume I feel my left ear being numbed out by the tweet. I have no issues with the right tweet thou, that sound great. How can I stop my left tweet from killing my left ear?


Try changing the polarity of the Left tweeter and recalibrate. 

Kelvin


----------



## Beherit

Should I just reverse the polarity on the left tweeter or would I have to do the swap on both sides ?


----------



## subwoofery

Try your Left tweeter only. Might be getting Xover distorsion... 
Who knows, could be an easy fix. 

Kelvin


----------



## Jprice2708

Ok, so I'm sure someone else has had this problem, and had it solved, but I can't find the answer....

I have a fairly loud hiss in my system that I can't figure out how to get rid of.

My HU is connected to my MS8 via RCA, then the MS8 is connected to my maps via RCA. The hiss is constant regardless of volume on my HU (I have my MS8 set to -6db and use the HU for volume adjustment). The hiss disappears if I uplug the RCA's going from the MS8 to the amps, but remains if I unplug the RCA's going from the HU to the MS8. All grounds are attached to the same point so I don't think it's a ground problem or the amps would hiss too (wouldn't they?).

At this point it seems to me like the hiss is being caused by the MS8... any suggestions on what to do?

Thanks very much


----------



## 14642

subwoofery said:


> Try your Left tweeter only. Might be getting Xover distorsion...
> Who knows, could be an easy fix.
> 
> Kelvin


 
Check to be sure that you have the tweeter and mid mapped correctly. Could be tweeter playing midrange information.


----------



## Beherit

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Check to be sure that you have the tweeter and mid mapped correctly. Could be tweeter playing midrange information.


I swapped both of the tweeters around and yes it's way better now in terms of how harsh it used to be but at the expense of the audio quality. Mids seem heavier then the tweets now.. Vocals has lost that airy presense. (love the snare and the double pedal bits though!!!) I have my tweets crossed over at 2khz at 24db slope . I shall try swapping only the left one now to see if I get back abit of the lost highs. It's harsh in terms of I feel it piercing my ear and not really distorting, the clarity was there but just too much of it from the left .


----------



## whiteskull123

im getting a ms-8 for my car with a stock system soon.

my current set-up includes- 
front infinity ref 6030cs (90w rms 2 ohm)
focal solid 4 amp (100w [email protected] [email protected] fed with speaker level connections)
auditor RIP 250 B sub (250w [email protected])
rear stock door coaxials (20w [email protected])

i had initially changed the components and added a sub and a 4 ch amp to upgrade my system, but the results were extra loud-harsh tweets and boomy bass. 

initially i thought it was my stock system's default eq, but on connecting my ipod directly to the RCA ports of my amp, i noticed the problems still remained. therefore its either the amp or the comps to blame.

would the ms-8 solve this?

and regarding the installation- is it better to setup the fronts as 2-way than 1-way? will the benefits overweight the extra cost of getting a 4 ch amp for my fronts? 

any other suggestions regarding the setup would also be welcome!


----------



## whiteskull123

beherit,
not much of a technical guy but i think u should check if the gains on your amp for the individual tweeters are set right. or u could try reducing the gain for your left tweeter a little bit.


----------



## quality_sound

Beherit said:


> I swapped both of the tweeters around and yes it's way better now in terms of how harsh it used to be but at the expense of the audio quality. Mids seem heavier then the tweets now.. Vocals has lost that airy presense. (love the snare and the double pedal bits though!!!) I have my tweets crossed over at 2khz at 24db slope . I shall try swapping only the left one now to see if I get back abit of the lost highs. It's harsh in terms of I feel it piercing my ear and not really distorting, the clarity was there but just too much of it from the left .


I'd raise the crossover at least an octave and see what happens.


----------



## Beherit

whiteskull123 said:


> beherit,
> not much of a technical guy but i think u should check if the gains on your amp for the individual tweeters are set right. or u could try reducing the gain for your left tweeter a little bit.


Well, i did check the gains on the amp. and both my tweets are sharing the same gain potentiometer and i have it set against a 4khz sound source and tuned it till the clipping and set it back abit.

i first set the HU at 33 which is the indicated signal volume expected at the processor, next i had the gain on the amp all the way down and started raising the volume on the ms-8 which brought it up to -15 db where it started clipping, dropped it to -17db and started to pick up on the gain and backed it off from the clipping. on my gain it's set at the 2 oclock position which indicates +0.5V .


----------



## Beherit

quality_sound said:


> I'd raise the crossover at least an octave and see what happens.




www.movingair.com.sg/Products.htm


that's the site to the speaker set i'm using. the Clarity Mk1 . What would you suggest i set the crossovers to and at which octave ? i was experimenting from 3.5khz and started gradually going lower and right now when i swapped the polarity around, i have it set at 1.8khz at a 24db slope. the thing about the 3.5 khz is that i felt the staging was too muddled and at 1.8-2khz, it sets most of the vocals and higher notes at a better height. ( the tweekers are on the dashboard facing me directly, so they are offset in regards to the symmetry of the car and as well of the 6" in the door panel but are angled to face directly me. (...is this wrong ?)


----------



## subwoofery

Beherit said:


> Moving Air, 1St Acoustics Design Laboratory, Loudspeaker Designed & Engineered In Singapore
> 
> 
> that's the site to the speaker set i'm using. the Clarity Mk1 . What would you suggest i set the crossovers to and at which octave ? i was experimenting from 3.5khz and started gradually going lower and right now when i swapped the polarity around, i have it set at 1.8khz at a 24db slope. the thing about the 3.5 khz is that i felt the staging was too muddled and at 1.8-2khz, it sets most of the vocals and higher notes at a better height. ( the tweekers are on the dashboard facing me directly, so they are offset in regards to the symmetry of the car and as well of the 6" in the door panel but are angled to face directly me. (...is this wrong ?)


Never used nor heard that set of drivers but 2.5kHz @ 24dB/oct slope is the absolute lowest I would use. So input 2.5kHz and work your way up from there. 
You don't need to lower your tweeters Xover point in order to gain stage height. Try to play with slopes coz your tweeters might not integrate well with the mids: 
2.5kHz @ 24dB 
3.2kHz @ 18dB 
4kHz @ 12dB (or 3.5kHz like in the passive Xover) 

A few people use a Xover point of 5.5kHz (and even higher) and don't have problems with stage height with the midrange down low. 
I usually like 18dB slopes for tweeters. 

Kelvin


----------



## whiteskull123

whiteskull123 said:


> im getting a ms-8 for my car with a stock system soon.
> 
> my current set-up includes-
> front infinity ref 6030cs (90w rms 2 ohm)
> focal solid 4 amp (100w [email protected] [email protected] fed with speaker level connections)
> auditor RIP 250 B sub (250w [email protected])
> rear stock door coaxials (20w [email protected])
> 
> i had initially changed the components and added a sub and a 4 ch amp to upgrade my system, but the results were extra loud-harsh tweets and boomy bass.
> 
> initially i thought it was my stock system's default eq, but on connecting my ipod directly to the RCA ports of my amp, i noticed the problems still remained. therefore its either the amp or the comps to blame.
> 
> would the ms-8 solve this?
> 
> and regarding the installation- is it better to setup the fronts as 2-way than 1-way? will the benefits overweight the extra cost of getting a 4 ch amp for my fronts?
> 
> any other suggestions regarding the setup would also be welcome!


anyone?


----------



## subwoofery

whiteskull123 said:


> anyone?


Infinity Refs are known to be harsh. My advice? Buy another set of speakers... 
Not kidding... Seriously those are harsh to begin with. 

Boomy bass is only a tuning problem or phase problem. Can be fixed with a simple PEQ in the sub range and phase switch (0-180°) for integration. 

Kelvin


----------



## whiteskull123

subwoofery said:


> Infinity Refs are known to be harsh. My advice? Buy another set of speakers...
> Not kidding... Seriously those are harsh to begin with.
> 
> Boomy bass is only a tuning problem or phase problem. Can be fixed with a simple PEQ in the sub range and phase switch (0-180°) for integration.
> 
> Kelvin


thanks for ur views.

and so i ve heard about the infinity, but was carried away by the 'high end speakers' catalog of infinity, way to go harman guys, good marketing.

but somehow i am impressed wit the ms-8, regarding the imaging and t/a and all, i just kinda fear i would purchase the ms-8 giving away to harman marketing all over again without substantial benefit, it aint gonn b useless ofcourse! 

my doubt is, whether the ms-8 would solve this, or would the infinity still be harsh? and that i would ve to get another pair of comps anyway?

thats why i want some experienced users here to tell me!! i dont trust ppl at the audio shop anymore!


----------



## Beherit

subwoofery said:


> Never used nor heard that set of drivers but 2.5kHz @ 24dB/oct slope is the absolute lowest I would use. So input 2.5kHz and work your way up from there.
> You don't need to lower your tweeters Xover point in order to gain stage height. Try to play with slopes coz your tweeters might not integrate well with the mids:
> 2.5kHz @ 24dB
> 3.2kHz @ 18dB
> 4kHz @ 12dB (or 3.5kHz like in the passive Xover)
> 
> A few people use a Xover point of 5.5kHz (and even higher) and don't have problems with stage height with the midrange down low.
> I usually like 18dB slopes for tweeters.
> 
> Kelvin




Thanks for the advice, i was just going through the tech spec sheet and used my ears to judge what I wanted , I hope this sends me on the right path to rectify my tweeter situation. I have set it at 3khz 18/db slope. The Left tweeters still piercing . The reverse polarity did rid of it but at the expense of the music quality. Wonder if there's anything I can adjust while calibrating to tone down the tweeter.


----------



## quietfly

Not sure if you tried this but see if switching the channel on the amp gives you the same results. This will rule out any weirdness from amp distortion on that channel. I've had a similar issue when one of the channels on my amp was dying. 
Good luck 

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


----------



## kaigoss69

whiteskull123 said:


> thanks for ur views.
> 
> and so i ve heard about the infinity, but was carried away by the 'high end speakers' catalog of infinity, way to go harman guys, good marketing.
> 
> but somehow i am impressed wit the ms-8, regarding the imaging and t/a and all, i just kinda fear i would purchase the ms-8 giving away to harman marketing all over again without substantial benefit, it aint gonn b useless ofcourse!
> 
> my doubt is, whether the ms-8 would solve this, or would the infinity still be harsh? and that i would ve to get another pair of comps anyway?
> 
> thats why i want some experienced users here to tell me!! i dont trust ppl at the audio shop anymore!


If it can make OEM speakers sound good, then I would think it will have no problems taming the harshness of your aftermarket speakers.


----------



## Beherit

SOLVED! (sort of...) I figured there's nothing i could calibrate to rid of the piercing sound. so i tried different angles to see if that helps. and YES! now the tweeter's angle facing directly my steering wheel and after the recal, now the singer's singing right behind the steering just a slight bit off towards the centre of the dash!(where as previously the singer was singing right dead centre of the dash) piercing's stopped and now i got to play around with the driver's side tweeter to get both of them to allign . because now instead of having a stage infront of me, i could make out the audio coming from both tweeter sources. i as well lowered the tone of the treble by 5 notches. which brings about my next question, where in the stage created by ms-8 should the singer be singing ? right infront of the driver or in the centre of the dash ? this is my first attempt at going active so i'm pretty clueless on the staging side of things. and as well, i have an underseat 8"subwoofer swe-1000 from alpine , can i assign it as a woofer of a 3-way or should i strictly stick to assigning it as a bass woofer ?it's rated at 50Hz to 125Hz .


----------



## antikryst

whiteskull123 said:


> thanks for ur views.
> 
> and so i ve heard about the infinity, but was carried away by the 'high end speakers' catalog of infinity, way to go harman guys, good marketing.
> 
> but somehow i am impressed wit the ms-8, regarding the imaging and t/a and all, i just kinda fear i would purchase the ms-8 giving away to harman marketing all over again without substantial benefit, it aint gonn b useless ofcourse!
> 
> my doubt is, whether the ms-8 would solve this, or would the infinity still be harsh? and that i would ve to get another pair of comps anyway?
> 
> thats why i want some experienced users here to tell me!! i dont trust ppl at the audio shop anymore!


i had the same infinities and i didnt find them harsh. they were very bright but not harsh to me. tweets were installed high on the middle of the door. im looking into getting a processor too but thats still at least a year off... but if i were you... its better to spend that money on getting a good set of fronts first before plunking cash on an expensive processor. maybe try a different tweeter placement first?

changed my infinities to focal v30s a few days back and its night and day difference.

the infinities had no boominess to it. it actually lacked mid bass for me... so that problem is probably the settings on your sub. gain maybe? or maybe your infinities are trying to play low... which they cant handle.


----------



## whiteskull123

antikryst said:


> i had the same infinities and i didnt find them harsh. they were very bright but not harsh to me. tweets were installed high on the middle of the door. im looking into getting a processor too but thats still at least a year off... but if i were you... its better to spend that money on getting a good set of fronts first before plunking cash on an expensive processor. maybe try a different tweeter placement first?
> 
> changed my infinities to focal v30s a few days back and its night and day difference.
> 
> the infinities had no boominess to it. it actually lacked mid bass for me... so that problem is probably the settings on your sub. gain maybe? or maybe your infinities are trying to play low... which they cant handle.


They re bright alright . But certain frequencies like a woman singing high pitch comes out over bright at certain points, out of tune, and yes mid bass is absolutely low. Did u ve the ms-8 installed wit ur infinity and when u changed it? 
My infinity is crossed at 80hz! So i doubt its playing more bass than it can handle.

Gettin a pair of focals comps and rears would work out the same price as getting an ms-8. 

And does the active 2way front make a huge differnce from the passive crossover? What would be the advantages? Would the individual handling of tweeter n midrange by the ms-8 do wonders to he infinity?

My doubt is whether the ms-8 would make this okay anyway? I ve two options, changing the speakers, or gettin an ms-8!


----------



## saMxp

Just subscribing to this thread so I can read it in its entirety. Just installed an MS8 last week running Dayton Midbass and Tang Band W3-1364SA 3" widebands and really having fun with tuning with the MS8. Really forces you to play with phase and crossover points rather than over-eqing. Kinda what you're supposed to do, no?
Do wish the MS8 allowed you to underlap crossover points, though!


----------



## antikryst

whiteskull123 said:


> They re bright alright . But certain frequencies like a woman singing high pitch comes out over bright at certain points, out of tune, and yes mid bass is absolutely low. Did u ve the ms-8 installed wit ur infinity and when u changed it?
> My infinity is crossed at 80hz! So i doubt its playing more bass than it can handle.
> 
> Gettin a pair of focals comps and rears would work out the same price as getting an ms-8.
> 
> And does the active 2way front make a huge differnce from the passive crossover? What would be the advantages? Would the individual handling of tweeter n midrange by the ms-8 do wonders to he infinity?
> 
> My doubt is whether the ms-8 would make this okay anyway? I ve two options, changing the speakers, or gettin an ms-8!


nope. i was just running the infinities passive straight to the amp full range since my amp just goes 120hz high pass. no processor. i also dont have a sub yet. now i have the focal v30s up front passive... then infinity coax on the rears... still no sub and still full pass on the focals. changing my fronts was a big big big upgrade in terms of sound. i now have the range i was looking for that was missing with the infinities. maybe you could do what i did... change the fronts to a good set first before getting a processor.


----------



## subwoofery

antikryst said:


> nope. i was just running the infinities passive straight to the amp full range since my amp just goes 120hz high pass. no processor. i also dont have a sub yet. now i have the focal v30s up front passive... then infinity coax on the rears... still no sub and still full pass on the focals. changing my fronts was a big big big upgrade in terms of sound. i now have the range i was looking for that was missing with the infinities. maybe you could do what i did... *change the fronts to a good set first before getting a processor*.


Absolutely correct. You can make a basic set of speaker sound good with a processor but you'll still be limited by your set of speaker (up high and down low). 
I suggest you get a better set before getting a processor too. 

Getting a processor will let you tame the harshness to a degree but will make your boomy bass even more boomy if you plan to boost 

Kelvin


----------



## antikryst

subwoofery said:


> Absolutely correct. You can make a basic set of speaker sound good with a processor but you'll still be limited by your set of speaker (up high and down low).
> I suggest you get a better set before getting a processor too.
> 
> Getting a processor will let you tame the harshness to a degree but will make your boomy bass even more boomy if you plan to boost
> 
> Kelvin


if hitting the notes right with the clarity and detail is what you want... change your speakers. if your problem is getting staging and imaging right... then processor? seems like your problem is just with the speakers you have right now. 

this is based on the assumption that the speakers are installed properly.

just to note... the v30s i had installed seemed like they were distorting at first on the low notes. it was just impossible that they were bottoming out earlier than the infinities... doors were reopened and the MDF spacers were adjusted. seems like the MDF had too small of a hole that the speakers were hitting the inner part of the MDF. hole was made bigger by a jigsaw (?). MDF was also made thinner to ensure that the speakers wont hit the door card. problem solved. zero distortion and "bottoming out" now even at full range... at least until the point before where volume becomes unbearable loud.


----------



## Jprice2708

Jprice2708 said:


> Ok, so I'm sure someone else has had this problem, and had it solved, but I can't find the answer....
> 
> I have a fairly loud hiss in my system that I can't figure out how to get rid of.
> 
> My HU is connected to my MS8 via RCA, then the MS8 is connected to my maps via RCA. The hiss is constant regardless of volume on my HU (I have my MS8 set to -6db and use the HU for volume adjustment). The hiss disappears if I uplug the RCA's going from the MS8 to the amps, but remains if I unplug the RCA's going from the HU to the MS8. All grounds are attached to the same point so I don't think it's a ground problem or the amps would hiss too (wouldn't they?).
> 
> At this point it seems to me like the hiss is being caused by the MS8... any suggestions on what to do?
> 
> Thanks very much


Has anyone had this problem, or know how to fix it? I would really appreciate any help


----------



## 14642

How high are the gains on the amps and what MS-8 volume setting are you using when you listen? Do you use the factory volume control or MS-8's volume control?


----------



## an2ny888

Andy, would you recommend going with a wideband ( tang band bamboo) over a conventional tweeter midrange setup? will the ms8 mask any diffences between the two setups?


----------



## quality_sound

Beherit said:


> Moving Air, 1St Acoustics Design Laboratory, Loudspeaker Designed & Engineered In Singapore
> 
> 
> that's the site to the speaker set i'm using. the Clarity Mk1 . What would you suggest i set the crossovers to and at which octave ? i was experimenting from 3.5khz and started gradually going lower and right now when i swapped the polarity around, i have it set at 1.8khz at a 24db slope. the thing about the 3.5 khz is that i felt the staging was too muddled and at 1.8-2khz, it sets most of the vocals and higher notes at a better height. ( the tweekers are on the dashboard facing me directly, so they are offset in regards to the symmetry of the car and as well of the 6" in the door panel but are angled to face directly me. (...is this wrong ?)


Sorry, I just saw this. 

Start at 4.5KHz with a 12dB/Oct slope and leave it like that for a week and see how you like it.


----------



## Jprice2708

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> How high are the gains on the amps and what MS-8 volume setting are you using when you listen? Do you use the factory volume control or MS-8's volume control?


The gains on my front end amps are at 3/4, I put them at 3/8 (2v) for calibration, then raise them afterwards because it's too quiet. The MS8 is set at -6db like the manual says, and I use my HU volume control.

I have unplugged the HU, and the hiss isn't coming from it, as it remains when the HU is unplugged.

I also unplugged the MS8 from the amps, and the hiss went away completely, so I doubt very much if it has to do with the gain setting on the amps, unless that somehow affects the MS8.

As stated, everything is hooked up via RCA and yep, the microphone on the MS8 is unplugged


----------



## saMxp

What happens when you drop the MS8 to -15 and raise the volume on the head unit? 

This message brought by hTC EVO using Tapatalk


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## t3sn4f2

saMxp said:


> What happens when you drop the MS8 to -15 and raise the volume on the head unit?
> 
> This message brought by hTC EVO using Tapatalk


Possibly clip the inputs, which might not be noticeable except when playing heavily dynamically compressed music at the very highest head unit volume settings. And excessively limiting MS-8 output gain.


----------



## xr4tic

Jprice2708 said:


> The gains on my front end amps are at 3/4, I put them at 3/8 (2v) for calibration, then raise them afterwards because it's too quiet. The MS8 is set at -6db like the manual says, and I use my HU volume control.
> 
> I have unplugged the HU, and the hiss isn't coming from it, as it remains when the HU is unplugged.
> 
> I also unplugged the MS8 from the amps, and the hiss went away completely, so I doubt very much if it has to do with the gain setting on the amps, unless that somehow affects the MS8.
> 
> As stated, everything is hooked up via RCA and yep, the microphone on the MS8 is unplugged


Have you tried calibrating with the gains turned down even more, and then turning them up after? Maybe you won't need to turn them quite as high.


----------



## Tendean17

Sorry .. I do not intend to send this thread to "Dumb" Forum. maybe I'm wrong click the button on my phone.

I'm very sorry


----------



## BuickGN

Tendean17 said:


> Sorry .. I do not intend to send this thread to "Dumb" Forum. maybe I'm wrong click the button on my phone.
> 
> I'm very sorry


I did the same thing when I was new around here. My phone froze up and I kept hitting the screen. Next thing I knew I had nominated a thread to go to the dumb question forum. I wouldn't worry about it.


----------



## subwoofery

Just click the send to dumb button one more time... 

Kelvin


----------



## t3sn4f2

subwoofery said:


> Just click the send to dumb button one more time...
> 
> Kelvin


Before sending that is, or they'll put you down for two lol.


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## subwoofery

t3sn4f2 said:


> Before sending that is, or they'll put you down for two lol.


I've always wanted to know that  but I won't be the one to do it  

Kelvin


----------



## BuickGN

I've always wondered, is this an automatic thing where the thread is automatically moved once there are enough votes or does a mod do it?


----------



## subwoofery

Automatic... 3 votes and it's moving 

Kelvin


----------



## gadg8man

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'd do it a little differently. I'd bridge two 100-watt channels to the center. Then, I'd use two 150-watt channels for the front right and left. The other two 150-watt channels for the midbass and 100 x 2 for the rear. The OEM subs make GREAT midbass drivers. Save your money and keep those speakers. I think ultimately, you may require more power for the sub, but there's no need to make that decision now, unless you don't already own the amps.


Andy, when you say "The OEM subs make great midbasses drivers" are you referring to the 6.5" or the Logic 7 - 8"?
I have been looking for a set of 8" midbasses and maybe I can use what I have. (6.5")

Thanks


Chris


----------



## whiteskull123

Jprice2708 said:


> The gains on my front end amps are at 3/4, I put them at 3/8 (2v) for calibration, then raise them afterwards because it's too quiet. The MS8 is set at -6db like the manual says, and I use my HU volume control.
> 
> I have unplugged the HU, and the hiss isn't coming from it, as it remains when the HU is unplugged.
> 
> I also unplugged the MS8 from the amps, and the hiss went away completely, so I doubt very much if it has to do with the gain setting on the amps, unless that somehow affects the MS8.
> 
> As stated, everything is hooked up via RCA and yep, the microphone on the MS8 is unplugged


you should put the ms-8 volume at -30 to -40 for the calibration if you re using additional amps (-20 if you re using ms-8 amp), set the optimal gains on the speakers with the pink noise that comes during driver/channel confirmation from the ms-8 before acoustic calibration. then fine tune gains according to your taste after the whole setup (which might not be needed).


----------



## quality_sound

gadg8man said:


> Andy, when you say "The OEM subs make great midbasses drivers" are you referring to the 6.5" or the Logic 7 - 8"?
> I have been looking for a set of 8" midbasses and maybe I can use what I have. (6.5")
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> Chris


Either one. Obviously the 8s will have more output, but neither are really subs anyway.


----------



## cuibono

Does anyone know the I/O latency of the MS-8? I'd like to sync it to video, but don't want to buy it if it has noticeable latency.

Any input? I've looked around, but not been able to find anything. 

Thanks!


----------



## quietfly

cuibono said:


> Does anyone know the I/O latency of the MS-8? I'd like to sync it to video, but don't want to buy it if it has noticeable latency.
> 
> Any input? I've looked around, but not been able to find anything.
> 
> Thanks!


describe what you mean by synch it to video, if you mean have video playing from your source H/U you'll be fine. If you mean run the signal through the MS8 and recapture with video in synch, you might need to run some time code correction.


----------



## cuibono

I'd like to know how many mSeconds the delay is between the input and output of the unit.

I'd like to use it for live audio feeds, in which case the delay has to be below 15mS.


----------



## quietfly

Well that looks like a question Andy or Adam would need to answer. My guess would be it depends where you grab the signal. After processing before amps is maybe ok. However id think at the amps might be too late. 
Why would you want to send live signal through for processing? What's your application here.

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk


----------



## Jprice2708

whiteskull123 said:


> you should put the ms-8 volume at -30 to -40 for the calibration if you re using additional amps (-20 if you re using ms-8 amp), set the optimal gains on the speakers with the pink noise that comes during driver/channel confirmation from the ms-8 before acoustic calibration. then fine tune gains according to your taste after the whole setup (which might not be needed).


I calibrate at -40, with gains at 2v, then turn the sub gain all the way down and the front stage amps up to 3/4 to try to get the sound level matched. I run at -6db on the MS8 volume and adjust the volume with the HU, as per the manual.


----------



## jsampsell

I hope I can jump in here and ask probably a dumb question without getting too much hassle. I am definitely not your average newbie but, then again, my question may prove that I think of myself too highly when it comes to average. Oh well. I installed my MS-8 just fine and ran a LOT of different calibrations with all kinds of variables. I had said a few pages back that I will probably uninstall it and sell it since I couldn't get it to sound good to my likings. Well, before I give up on it completely, could someone be kind enough to explain what it means to have your "gains at 2V"? I was talking to someone about this today and he first asked what the preout voltage of my head unit was versus the input voltage for the MS-8. Maybe I'm talking about two different things here completely, but the MS-8 manual says maximum input of 2.8V and my Pioneer AVH-P4200DVD head unit manual says maximum preout of 4V. I know that gains refer to amplifier channels so I was a little confused as to why he asked this question. In addition to that confusion, I really don't know exactly why there's reference to gains being turned down to what would equal 2V. The only thing I can think of is that pushing the signal too much via a turned up gain equals more voltage going into the MS-8 which could cause bad results if the input is putting in more than the MS-8 is supposed to handle. If that is accurate then my next question is about the preout voltage from the headunit. It used the word "maximum" as 4V. Does that mean it is variable based on the device on the receiving end of the signal? I wouldn't think that it would be variable because there would have to be so much more technology for it to detect what the receiving device's capabilities are in order for it to match it. Anyway, long story short, if my head unit is truly sending 4V into the 2.8V maximum of the MS-8 input then an amplifier gain setting probably doesn't come into this equation and I'm still overdoing the MS-8. Is that correct? If so, any recommendations on what to do about it? I really, really do not want to run line-level to the MS-8 but if that's the only way to get it to work well then I may consider it.

Thanks in advance for any clarification provided. I'd really like to use this thing and be satisfied with the sound. As it stands, I really am on the brink of just selling it.


----------



## bengerman

n_olympios said:


> F/R/SW and normal. And obviously, you choose either the Front or Rear outputs, not the SW ones. Oh and remember to disengage any filtering in the HU (highpass/lowpass etc).


hi, anyone knows how to turn of the filtering on a alpine 9887?

nvm, found it in the manual under in fine print. cheers


----------



## nineball

jsampsell said:


> I hope I can jump in here and ask probably a dumb question without getting too much hassle. I am definitely not your average newbie but, then again, my question may prove that I think of myself too highly when it comes to average. Oh well. I installed my MS-8 just fine and ran a LOT of different calibrations with all kinds of variables. I had said a few pages back that I will probably uninstall it and sell it since I couldn't get it to sound good to my likings. Well, before I give up on it completely, could someone be kind enough to explain what it means to have your "gains at 2V"? I was talking to someone about this today and he first asked what the preout voltage of my head unit was versus the input voltage for the MS-8. Maybe I'm talking about two different things here completely, but the MS-8 manual says maximum input of 2.8V and my Pioneer AVH-P4200DVD head unit manual says maximum preout of 4V. I know that gains refer to amplifier channels so I was a little confused as to why he asked this question. In addition to that confusion, I really don't know exactly why there's reference to gains being turned down to what would equal 2V. The only thing I can think of is that pushing the signal too much via a turned up gain equals more voltage going into the MS-8 which could cause bad results if the input is putting in more than the MS-8 is supposed to handle. If that is accurate then my next question is about the preout voltage from the headunit. It used the word "maximum" as 4V. Does that mean it is variable based on the device on the receiving end of the signal? I wouldn't think that it would be variable because there would have to be so much more technology for it to detect what the receiving device's capabilities are in order for it to match it. Anyway, long story short, if my head unit is truly sending 4V into the 2.8V maximum of the MS-8 input then an amplifier gain setting probably doesn't come into this equation and I'm still overdoing the MS-8. Is that correct? If so, any recommendations on what to do about it? I really, really do not want to run line-level to the MS-8 but if that's the only way to get it to work well then I may consider it.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any clarification provided. I'd really like to use this thing and be satisfied with the sound. As it stands, I really am on the brink of just selling it.




the 2v setting is for your amplifiers after the ms8, not the input for the ms8. 

your hu may say 4v pre-outs but that only happens around max volume, something you will never use. it doesn't matter what you connect it to as that has no affect on the voltage out from the hu (meaning it doesn't work like a speaker ohm load to an amp, which is what i think you are comparing it too).


----------



## AL_G300C

i have a question we get 8 Rca inputs on the MS-8 but we only use 2 from a after-market head unit ... what application would be used with the other 6 RCA inputs?


----------



## t3sn4f2

AL_G300C said:


> i have a question we get 8 Rca inputs on the MS-8 but we only use 2 from a after-market head unit ... what application would be used with the other 6 RCA inputs?


Actively processed oem low level outputs that are tapped before the oem amp.


----------



## AL_G300C

t3sn4f2 said:


> Actively processed oem low level outputs that are tapped before the oem amp.


i did not see anywhere where in the installation manual that application for useing the other 6 RCA INPUTS on the MS

so i would think you be useing a HI /Lo converter to rca In.


----------



## Tendean17

Tendean17 said:


> Sorry .. I do not intend to send this thread to "Dumb" Forum. maybe I'm wrong click the button on my phone.
> 
> I'm very sorry


Move back to this Tecnical-Advanced forum .. by the help from Moderator.
Thanks.


----------



## brianhj

vfparts said:


> How does this compare to the audison bit one, is it better?


Is it "better"? Really?

They are two different beasts. It all depends on what you're looking for in a processor.

I truly believe the MS-8 is meant to be a set it and forget it type device. The BitOne on the other hand is for master tuners.. you need a good ear or good tuning equipment to get it right.

Of course, there are people who spend just as much time getting the MS-8 to sound "right" as they do tuning a system manually. But I believe there are many more people that throw the MS-8 into their system and it sounds "perfect" to them the very first time and they never touch the thing again.

This kind of question all depends on you.  Seriously.


----------



## Tendean17

AL_G300C said:


> i did not see anywhere where in the installation manual that application for useing the other 6 RCA INPUTS on the MS
> 
> so i would think you be useing a HI /Lo converter to rca In.


Maybe this what you're looking for ..



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Guys,
> If you're using an aftermarket radio, there's noneed to use the additional 6 RCA inputs on the unit. If you're using a factory radio, then you should use the speaker level inputs and connect to as many chanels of the factory system as is required to provide the MS-8 the entire front right and left signal plus the output for the sub, if there is a sub. We left the additional 6 RCA inputs intact in case there are cases where the output of the factory system doesn't provide enough voltage to register during setup or in case there's a need to sum speaker level and RCA level.
> 
> The owner's manual and the quick start guide are written as instruction for installing the system and making it work. They aren't intended to explain WHY everything works. If we had written that, it would be hundreds of pages long and itseems that even a relatively concise quick start guide is too much to read and follow.
> 
> Get this, we had a local (soCal) dealer install one for a reviewer. Took the veteran installer 16 hours to install it incorrectly for which the dealer charged us $1700. Finally, Gary Biggs had to fly out here while I was overseas to check it out and ultimately, turn the volume down during calibration.


----------



## Tendean17

Jprice2708 said:


> The gains on my front end amps are at 3/4, I put them at 3/8 (2v) for calibration, then raise them afterwards because it's too quiet. The MS8 is set at -6db like the manual says, and I use my HU volume control.
> 
> I have unplugged the HU, and the hiss isn't coming from it, as it remains when the HU is unplugged.
> 
> I also unplugged the MS8 from the amps, and the hiss went away completely, so I doubt very much if it has to do with the gain setting on the amps, unless that somehow affects the MS8.
> 
> As stated, everything is hooked up via RCA and yep, the microphone on the MS8 is unplugged


I think 3/4 gain from the amps will cause noise .. make it 3/8 again and -6 db from MS-8 Volume and use your Head Unit Volume.
When you unplugged the MS8 from the amps .. no hiss .. cause no signal be amplified.

Andy's post about noise ..



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Too much has been made over the years about gain and level setting. Some years ago, systems were made up of a head unit, an EQ, separate electronic crossovers and then amps. Setting levels in these kinds of systems was important, but we no longer use so many analog components in a lengthy signal chain. In a system like that, each component should be driven with the highest level possible before the outputs OR the inputs are clipped. and the signal sent over the wire should be maximized to maximize the signal to noise ratio. The reason for all of this was noise. Too much INPUT sensitivity and too little output voltage would result in system hiss and would boost the level of engine noise, which would be amplified by every component in the chain.
> 
> We no longer have to be so concerned with all of that because systems now are often a head unit, a signal processor of some kind and some amplifiers. Additionally, components now often have differential inputs, which are designed to eliminate the possibility of engine noise.
> 
> So, with MS-8, the analog signal from the source is converted into a digital signal in the unit before anything else happens and we've designed the unit to make setting this level as easy as it can be. The RCAs are fixed input sensitivity and are designed to work with all aftermarket head units without any user intervention. Just plug them in and go. *The unit, without EQ, is designed to provide unity gain up to 2.8V, which is plenty. That means if you put 1V in, you get 1V out. If you put 2V in, you get 2V out. If you put 9V in, you'll get 2.8V out but it'll be seriously distorted. When you turn the output of your radio down so that you send 2.8V, you'll get 2.8V that isn't clipped*.
> 
> Now, one of the reasons that all of this input sensitivity setting procedure was developed and that many of us suggest things like 10dB of gain "overlap" is because a system that can't clip doesn't sound very loud, especially with recordings that have a high crest factor and little dynamic range compression added to the final mixdown. You *want* your system to clip, but you want to balance that with the amount of noise (hiss) you allow the system to produce. You *don't *want _*much*_ of this clipping to be digital distortion, because that sounds bad.
> 
> If you're using a 4V head unit with MS-8, that provides 3dB of gain overlap. You won't hear much distortion unless you listen to sine waves recorded at 0dB with the volume control turned all the way up. With normal music and the head unit's volume control all the way up, only the transients that are recorded at 0dB will be distorted, but only by 3dB. You won't hear that and if you do, simply backing the volume control of the head unit off by a couple of notches will take care of it.
> 
> Since the MS-8 is designed to provide unity gain, it's sufficient to set the input sensitivity of the amplifiers to the same setting as the output of your head unit for 0dB of gain overlap between MS-8 and your amps). This will ensure no input clipping of your amplifiers and will ensure the least noise possible. Double the input sensitivity will result in an additional 6dB of gain. So, if your head unit is a 4V unit, you can set the input sensitivity of the amps to about 1V, which will give you a total of about 9dB of "overlap". Precision isn't required.
> 
> Because MS-8 also has a volume control, you'll have to manage how you use it. You don't have to use the MS-8 control if you'd prefer to use the one on your radio. If you choose to do this, then you'll need to set the MS-8 volume control at some level that allows the right amount of "input sensitivity" but also allows enough digital headroom for the EQ inside of the MS-8 to operate without running out of bits (that causes digital distortion). I suggest setting the MS-8 control at -6dB to -9dB during listening, unless you boost the bass in MS-8. If you boost, then you should set it lower by about the same amount as you boost and then use your head unit's volume control.
> 
> If this in't enough "gain" for you, then turn the amplifiers up after calibration by the same amount to maintain MS-8's "tune".
> 
> You can determine the point at which your radio outputs about 2.8V by putting the setup disc in your aftermarket radio and running input setup. The point at which you get OK OK OK is the point at which your radio outputs about 2.8V. You can continue to run input setup and MS-8 will Un-EQ and remove any channel delay. If you're using an aftermarlet radio, none of that should be necessary so all of the EQ filters will be set to unity. That means what comes in goes out. If you choose "skip input setup", all of the filters will be set to unity.
> 
> When you run acoustic calibration, MS-8 will set all of the output levels according to the acoustic response in the car. This takes into account the sensitivity of the drivers and their frequency responses. Some outputs will be increased in level and some may be decreased. So long as there's no hiss, the output level and the input sensitivity control of your amps don't matter. Let MS-8 do what it does.
> 
> When you run acoustic calibration, the output of the system can't clip the mic, or things will be ugly. If the mic is clipped during the first set of sweeps, the unit won't be able to locate the initial peak in the response and it won't set time alignment correctly. You'll know this is the case, because there won't be a center image. This is all the volume control setting for acoustic calibration is doing--making sure the system doesn't clip the mics. To ensure this, turn MS-8's volume control DOWN. If you use MS-8's internal amps, -20dB is the highest setting you'll need. If you're using additional amps, you'll have to turn it down MORE. -40, maybe. This setting doesn't matter too much in terms of the final outcome, but the level does change the way MS-8 will boost and cut, because everything has to fit in a "window". The window is big, though.
> 
> This is no different than tuning with a regular EQ. If you boost all the bands to fix holes, you'll have a super loud car and you'll probably have lots of clipping and noise. You'll also probably boost in the interest of filling holes cause by acoustic cancellation, which may overdrive your speakers and cause additional distortion. MS-8 tries NOT to do this, but it can't know for sure. If your response has big holes because you're using an 8" midbass and a 1" tweeter and the wrong crossover point, you may hear distortion because MS-8 is boosting as much as it can to fill a hole that can't be filled. Fix the speaker system. MS-8 can't make gold out of crap.
> 
> If, when you're tuning with a manual EQ, you cut all the bands to remove peaks, then you'll reduce the output voltage of the EQ at frequencies where you've cut and you'll probably want to readjust the input sensitivity of all of the amps to increase the level of the whole system to make up for it. If you think about it, this is how we all tune systems anyway. So long as you don't introduce a bunch of system hiss, this is fine. Cutting a lot and boosting a little is the best method. This is how MS-8's algorithm is designed to work. It works well, but GIGO still applies.
> 
> Once acoustic calibration is complete, if you want to use your head unit's volume control, set MS-8's volume control to -6 and go crazy. If you boost a bunch with MS-8's EQ or sub level control, you may have to turn MS-8's volume control down to leave more digital headroom for the boost. This isn't a defect. This is how digital EQ works. Some digital EQs normalize the response. That would result in everything else being reduced in level as you boost the bass (or the EQ). We didn't do this because it adds complexity to the system and the result of boosting with these systems when you reach the level at which there are no more bits available is counterintuitive.
> 
> If you want to use MS-8's control, do this: Put in a music disc, turn MS-8's volume control DOWN to something like -40 or -50 (so you know you're not clipping the outputs of MS-8 or your amps) and turn up the head unit's volume control. When you hear distortion, you'll know you're either clipping the output of the radio or the inputs of MS-8. Turn the head unit's volume control down until you don't hear any more distortion. This is the maximum usable output of the head unit for MUSIC and for that particular disc. If you listen to another disc with more or less dynamic range compression in the recording, you may find a different volume control setting produces *audible *distortion. This is related to our ability to hear distortion on transients, the length of the transients and how often those transients are repeated. The idea here is that you have control over the amount of clipping you allow. It is what it is and balancing the two volume controls will help you get the most from your system. I think the vast majority of systems will be fine.
> 
> The bass can't clip the mics during sweeps 2-4 either, because the EQ doesn't know what to do. Be sure that the level of the bass is LOW during the sweeps. If you have twelve 15" woofers and you want to wake the neighbors, turn the amp gain WAY down during calibration. The bass should be heard during the sweeps, but you shouldn't feel it. Then, after calibration, turn the gain of the amp up until you're happy. You can't wake the neighbors and have 40dB more bass than mids and highs and maintain the illusion that the bass is in the front of the car, which is what MS-8 is designed to do. You'll have to adjust the gain of the amp to get what you want, because MS-8 tries to eliminate what you want. Let MS-8 do what it does, and then make your adjustment afterward.
> 
> Finally, if the system doesn't play loudly enough, adjust the amplifier input sensitivity control to increase the overall system level. There's no need to use a meter or a scope. Just adjust them all up or down by the same amount to maintain MS-8's EQ and relative level settings. The VMM method won't work because there's a bunch of EQ applied to the signal, which increases and decreases the output voltage at different frequencies. BTW, the VMM method is only slightly more accurate than just setting by ear.
> 
> *Don't be confused by all of the "this has to be precisely set to get the most from your system" garbage. If there's no noise (or the noise is low enough that you're not annoyed by it) and your system plays loudly enough, then things are set appropriately*.


----------



## subwoofery

cuibono said:


> Does anyone know the I/O latency of the MS-8? I'd like to sync it to video, but don't want to buy it if it has noticeable latency.
> 
> Any input? I've looked around, but not been able to find anything.
> 
> Thanks!





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, the bass has to be generated by MS-8. The processing inside the box takes about *8mS*, so if you run some signals around MS-8, they'll be out of synch. You'll want to use MS-8's sub level control. It's much better and will preserve the blend between the midbass and the sub to keep the bass up front even when you boost.


MS-8 = 8mS = Duh!!!!! 

Don't think it's gonna be a problem... 8ms is around 8-9 feet. Delay isn't long enough for your to notice any latency. 

Kelvin


----------



## Jprice2708

Tendean17 said:


> I think 3/4 gain from the amps will cause noise .. make it 3/8 again and -6 db from MS-8 Volume and use your Head Unit Volume.
> When you unplugged the MS8 from the amps .. no hiss .. cause no signal be amplified.
> 
> Andy's post about noise ..


Cool - so finally got time to go play with it and your post was very helpful - thankyou. I turned the MS8 volume up and down but that made no difference to the hiss. I then adjusted the gains on the amps down and the hiss lowered. So is the hiss a form of distortion that the amps are amplifying? Is there some way to be able to remove that hiss so I can continue to get good volume from my amps, or is it unavoidable and I just have to use my amps at a lower gain setting, and buy bigger amps if I want more volume without the hiss?


----------



## Tendean17

Jprice2708 said:


> Cool - so finally got time to go play with it and your post was very helpful - thankyou. I turned the MS8 volume up and down but that made no difference to the hiss. I then adjusted the gains on the amps down and the hiss lowered. So is the hiss a form of distortion that the amps are amplifying? Is there some way to be able to remove that hiss so I can continue to get good volume from my amps, or is it unavoidable and I just have to use my amps at a lower gain setting, and buy bigger amps if I want more volume without the hiss?


Wait .. you hear noise (hiss) when no cd is playing right ?
as long as you don't hear hiss at your listening position i think it's normal .. in case the hiss exist when you put your ear right in front of at the speaker.
There are many possibility other than change to bigger amps .. HU, Grounding, Installation etc .. that can cause the problem. I wish my english is good enough .. so i can try to write more 

Some other noise article maybe you wanna read.
Noise Prevention


----------



## Jprice2708

Tendean17 said:


> Wait .. you hear noise (hiss) when no cd is playing right ?
> as long as you don't hear hiss at your listening position i think it's normal .. in case the hiss exist when you put your ear right in front of at the speaker.
> There are many possibility other than change to bigger amps .. HU, Grounding, Installation etc .. that can cause the problem. I wish my english is good enough .. so i can try to write more
> 
> Some other noise article maybe you wanna read.
> Noise Prevention


Yes - Hiss when nothing playing. I have gains turned down to half and hiss is very low (sitting in normal listening position). If I turn the gains up at all it gets louder really fast. I thought the MS8 removed noise interference, so I'm confused why it is hissing at all...

I have to go out but when I get back I'll read that article, hopefully it will give me the right direction. Thanks again 

Edit: Interesting read, I'll try resetting the gains using his method in the morning, see if that helps...


----------



## AL_G300C

the hiss i had was from the HU volume up to high. this time on this system.

but when i have put together other systems over the yrs Noise/hiss can be a real pain in the ass trying to get rid of it. process of elimination usually. hopefully it will be a simple quick fix.


----------



## mikesz

I'm having a problem where my left (driver's side) channel is very bass heavy. The drivers are SEAS L18 and 27TBFCG mounted in the stock door locations of my 1996 Chevy Silverado. The MS-8 is setup 2-Way active with crossover points of 20hz and 2000hz both at 24db slopes. Front mids and tweeters are powered by external amplifiers. The factory rear speakers are powered by the MS-8 and are configured for side speakers with a crossover point of 150hz 24 db slope. During calibration using the diagnostic test tones I level matched by ear my front speakers to the rear's powered by the MS-8. I then ran the calibration at -20db as specified in the manual. 

Disabling processing seems to eliminate the problem. Swapping the interconnects left to right on the midbass amp causes the problem to switch sides. Swapping the interconnects left to right from my HU does nothing. 

Any ideas?


----------



## Tendean17

mikesz said:


> ...Any ideas?


1.> Make sure all speakers are connected in correct polarity + -> + ; - -> -.
2.> Turn your Front Amps gain down to about 1/4. 
3.> Try X'Over 80 for Midbass and 3600 for Tweeter with all 24dB Slope.
4.> Try -40 at MS-8 Volume before Calibration / Measurement Process.
5.> Unplug your Mic.
6.> Try -10 at MS-8 Volume after Calibration finished and play some CD.

It should be fix your problem.. Then .. There are many enhancement after your base setup is correct.

It maybe takes 1 or 2 days to read this thread from page 1 and you will get more great result as it should be.


----------



## quality_sound

Jprice2708 said:


> Yes - Hiss when nothing playing. I have gains turned down to half and hiss is very low (sitting in normal listening position). If I turn the gains up at all it gets louder really fast. I thought the MS8 removed noise interference, so I'm confused why it is hissing at all...
> 
> I have to go out but when I get back I'll read that article, hopefully it will give me the right direction. Thanks again
> 
> Edit: Interesting read, I'll try resetting the gains using his method in the morning, see if that helps...


The MS-8 is most likely not inducing the hiss. I didn't see what amps you're running but it could just be the noise floor of the amps. 1G PDXs would do this same thing.


----------



## IBcivic

HELP!!!!

I have heavy alternator whine comming through myright hand side tw/mid-range pillar pod. I flipped the rca at the ms-8 outputs andthe noise move to the left pillar pod. "B" channel amp in the Audison LRX5.1k

I did the same test at the amp's input...same results. 

I changed out the rca...no improvement.

I took the rca(s) from the h-u, straight to the amp's input= NO NOIZE!

Hooked the ms-8, back-up, moving the rca(s) from output 1(2 was left) to outputs 7 & 8 respectively and re-assigning the internal output configuration.....There it was again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pulled out all the rca(s) and left the pillar rca(s) connected...noise! (all other amps in the system had there respective fuse pulled)

Have I forgotten anything? Any Ideas?

The set-up sounds great otherwise, the more I tweak, the better it gets


----------



## IBcivic

Dis-regard what was posted above.:blush:
I had one of the input RCAs running parralel to the MS-8 mounting foot, passing right on top of the high level input plug. It seems that it was picking up some noise from that area and inducing it into the low level input jacks(1 & 2) . 

This was being picked up by 6mm shielded canare cable.


----------



## whiteskull123

Andy, assist me with this pls-

i just want a *precise sounding* system in a budget- 

my planned setup for my hatch goes like-

kicker DS 6.2 fronts components 60w (to replace the current infinity ref 6030cs)
focal solid 4 amp 75x2, 200x1
Auditor Rip 250B vented sub 250w
sides/rear speakers with an amp (havent decided yet)
and JBL MS-8, ofcourse.

1) first of all, Should i replace my 6.5" infinity ref 6030cs (90w 2ohm) with the kicker DS 6.2 (60w 4 ohm), my infinitys are so high it hurts! and lacks punch too. would the ms-8 make it sound like it should? you must be familiar with the infinity ref 

my research tells me kicker has some good midbass (which i suppose would gel with the ms-8 bass-midbass algorithm) 

1) Would u strongly recommend going with active fronts? woofers are at bottom and tweeters is at the top near the door handle at stock locations (passive XO's are at [infinity 3.5khz/kicker-4khz])
i remember reading your post about covering the tweeters for first of all four calibrations to set t/a. 

2) my car only has a provision of 4" speakers in my rear door bottom (sucks i know). should i configure these as my sides by putting a 4" aftermarket speakers with an amp? or put a 6x9 in my rear tray and configure them as my sides? (as i dont want to drill into the upholstery)

3) will the music be lacking noticeably if i don't have any rear spkrs in addition to sides with logic 7 on? as the out of phase information used by some artists to create an effect would be lost, correct?

4) A center channel really brings you to the concert hall with an ms-8 with its staging, so i ve read here at diyma, but the big problem is the only center channel i can get to fit without drilling is a pioneer-TS-CX900. 

its a 66 mm KEVLAR® Brand Fiber Composite Cone Woofer with 25 mm Balanced Dome Tweeter with Neodymium Magnet. 

but its RATED AT ONLY 20W RMS. i suspect its not going to gel with the other powered speakers! would you recommend installing it ? or to get the F/C/L playing at the same level, powering all the speakers with the ms-8 amp at 20W rms would be a good option? (at the sacrifice of a lot of volume and thump). or would it be better off without it. ? im really confused with this one!









AND if theres anything else lacking in the setup that you think would limit the ms-8's capabilities, throw it at me!


----------



## rommelrommel

whiteskull123 said:


> Andy, assist me with this pls-
> 
> i just want a precise sounding mediumly loud system in a budget-
> 
> my planned setup for my hatch goes like-
> 
> kicker DS 6.2 fronts components 60w (to replace the current infinity ref 6030cs)
> focal solid 4 amp 75x2, 200x1
> Auditor Rip 250B vented sub 250w
> sides/rear speakers with an amp (havent decided yet)
> and JBL MS-8, ofcourse.
> 
> 1) first of all, Should i replace my 6.5" infinity ref 6030cs (90w 2ohm) with the kicker DS 6.2 (60w 4 ohm), my infinitys are so high it hurts! and lacks punch too. would the ms-8 make it sound like it should? you must be familiar with the infinity ref
> 
> my research tells me kicker has some good midbass (which i suppose would gel with the ms-8 bass-midbass algorithm)


Mmm, probably. 




> 1) Would u strongly recommend going with active fronts? woofers are at bottom and tweeters is at the top near the door handle at stock locations (passive XO's are at [infinity 3.5khz/kicker-4khz])


Yes, I would go active for that. You could probably run the tweeters off of the internal MS8 amp.



> 2) my car only has a provision of 4" speakers in my rear door bottom (sucks i know). should i configure these as my sides by putting a 4" aftermarket speakers with an amp? or put a 6x9 in my rear tray and configure them as my sides? (as i dont want to drill into the upholstery)


Probably 6x9's would be better but I imagine either would work.



> 3) will the music be lacking noticeably if i don't have any rear spkrs in addition to sides with logic 7 on? as the out of phase information used by some artists to create an effect would be lost, correct?


I don't think that having rears and sides is that crucial. 



> 4) A center channel really brings you to the concert hall with an ms-8 with its staging, so i ve read here at diyma, but the big problem is the only center channel i can get to fit without drilling is a pioneer-TS-CX900.
> 
> 
> 
> its a 66 mm KEVLAR® Brand Fiber Composite Cone Woofer with 25 mm Balanced Dome Tweeter with Neodymium Magnet.
> 
> but its RATED AT ONLY 20W RMS. i suspect its not going to gel with the other powered speakers! would you recommend installing it ? or would it be better off without it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AND if theres anything else lacking in the setup that you think would limit the ms-8's capabilities, throw it at me!


Well, if you go 2 way active front, sides, sub, it's easy to _try_ the center channel, you have a channel left over. It may not give ideal results but I suspect you may like it.


----------



## whiteskull123

> Yes, I would go active for that. You could probably run the tweeters off of the internal MS8 amp.


are u sure? the woofers will get a whole lot more power than tweeters (which is normal) but 75w rms from solid 4 and 20w rms is a big gap!


> Probably 6x9's would be better but I imagine either would work.


yup but i def wouldn need the 6x9 if there NO midbass being sent to the sides! a 4" 2-way can manage the midrange and highs 
ANDY where r u?? throw some light on this one!!


> I don't think that having rears and sides is that crucial.


sides are crucial!! the rear passengers will ve to listen to only the subwoofer otherwise. 


> Well, if you go 2 way active front, sides, sub, it's easy to _try_ the center channel, you have a channel left over. It may not give ideal results but I suspect you may like it.


i need precise results!! the reason for going for the ms-8 in the first place! otherwise could ve jus bought some really good speakers summing up to Rs55,000 ($1220) instead (yeah thats the retail price back here in india!)!


----------



## rdv

whiteskull, it looks like you have enough channels to go active, 2 channels for tweets, 2 for mids, 2 - rears, 1- sub, 1 center. if you are not sure about the center then tune first without it. i dont have a center now and im happy with the results. after a few calibrations i was able to get the vocalist centered on my dash without using a center speaker.

the 4" rears should be good enough. they should not be reproducing that much bass anyway. it was said a lot of times in this thread. i have tried the ms8 with and without rears. it works without rear speakers but the overall stage and sound is much more expansive with them on.

do you already have the ms8? i would say just run it with whatever you have. i do think the ms8 will smoothen the sound of your infinities. since you are running active, you dont need to buy complete components sets which carry passives that you wont use anyway. this set up allows you to easily experiment with different drivers.


----------



## 14642

rdv said:


> whiteskull, it looks like you have enough channels to go active, 2 channels for tweets, 2 for mids, 2 - rears, 1- sub, 1 center. if you are not sure about the center then tune first without it. i dont have a center now and im happy with the results. after a few calibrations i was able to get the vocalist centered on my dash without using a center speaker.
> 
> the 4" rears should be good enough. they should not be reproducing that much bass anyway. it was said a lot of times in this thread. i have tried the ms8 with and without rears. it works without rear speakers but the overall stage and sound is much more expansive with them on.
> 
> do you already have the ms8? i would say just run it with whatever you have. i do think the ms8 will smoothen the sound of your infinities. since you are running active, you dont need to buy complete components sets which carry passives that you wont use anyway. this set up allows you to easily experiment with different drivers.


 
I agree with this. Thanks RDV


----------



## IBcivic

whiteskull123 said:


> Andy, assist me with this pls-
> 
> i just want a *precise sounding* system in a budget-
> 
> my planned setup for my hatch goes like-
> 
> kicker DS 6.2 fronts components 60w (to replace the current infinity ref 6030cs)
> focal solid 4 amp 75x2, 200x1
> Auditor Rip 250B vented sub 250w
> sides/rear speakers with an amp (havent decided yet)
> and JBL MS-8, ofcourse.
> 
> 1) first of all, Should i replace my 6.5" infinity ref 6030cs (90w 2ohm) with the kicker DS 6.2 (60w 4 ohm), my infinitys are so high it hurts! and lacks punch too. would the ms-8 make it sound like it should? you must be familiar with the infinity ref
> 
> my research tells me kicker has some good midbass (which i suppose would gel with the ms-8 bass-midbass algorithm)
> 
> 1) Would u strongly recommend going with active fronts? woofers are at bottom and tweeters is at the top near the door handle at stock locations (passive XO's are at [infinity 3.5khz/kicker-4khz])
> i remember reading your post about covering the tweeters for first of all four calibrations to set t/a.
> 
> 2) my car only has a provision of 4" speakers in my rear door bottom (sucks i know). should i configure these as my sides by putting a 4" aftermarket speakers with an amp? or put a 6x9 in my rear tray and configure them as my sides? (as i dont want to drill into the upholstery) you dont need sides if you have rears, if you start off with 2 way up-front you wont have any channels left to do sides+ rear , anyways
> 
> 3) will the music be lacking noticeably if i don't have any rear spkrs in addition to sides with logic 7 on? as the out of phase information used by some artists to create an effect would be lost, correct? NO it won't.
> If you do rears w/o sides, the "rears" will be labelled "sides", anyhow, in the set-up...
> 
> 4) A center channel really brings you to the concert hall with an ms-8 with its staging, so i ve read here at diyma, but the big problem is the only center channel i can get to fit without drilling is a pioneer-TS-CX900. If you raise th x/o to 300-400hz, that c-chanel driver should be able to provide an adequate center image
> 
> its a 66 mm KEVLAR® Brand Fiber Composite Cone Woofer with 25 mm Balanced Dome Tweeter with Neodymium Magnet.
> 
> but its RATED AT ONLY 20W RMS. i suspect its not going to gel with the other powered speakers! would you recommend installing it ? or to get the F/C/L playing at the same level, powering all the speakers with the ms-8 amp at 20W rms would be a good option? (at the sacrifice of a lot of volume and thump). or would it be better off without it. ? im really confused with this one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AND if theres anything else lacking in the setup that you think would limit the ms-8's capabilities, throw it at me!


hope this helps


----------



## whiteskull123

nope! i ve ordered it and the shop will get its stock next week! ppl here install everything from sony to focal but somehow its lacks in the tuning! i ve seen much better sounding systems with full MTX installs and it sounds MUCH better and fuller at a moderate volume than another car with full focal polyglass install costing five-ten times more!! makes you raise an eyebrow doesnt it? i am getting thorough with the set-up myself coz the installers here aren't experienced with the ms-8. 

THANKS a lot guys!


----------



## rdv

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I agree with this. Thanks RDV


you're welcome! I am honored!


----------



## jhnkvn

Has anybody attempted to use the MS-8 on competition-level events?


----------



## quality_sound

You mean besides that guys that beta-tested it?


----------



## whiteskull123

jhnkvn said:


> Has anybody attempted to use the MS-8 on competition-level events?


http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurComp...d Team JBL at 2007 Spring Break Nationals.pdf

:laugh:


----------



## KenNorton

with processing option set to 'defeat", will MS-8 also defeat the active crossover setting?
I'm worrying my un-protected tweeters.


----------



## CraigE

BuickGN said:


> I saw this question posted but I never saw a reply..... When you turn the processing to "off", crossovers are still in effect, right? I'm getting ready to run my tweeters passive next weekend but right now I have no bass blockers. I have no plans to turn processing off ever again but still curious.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, crossovers remain intact.


Simple search.


----------



## KenNorton

CraigE said:


> Simple search.


thank you.
and sorry for being lazy.


----------



## 14642

jhnkvn said:


> Has anybody attempted to use the MS-8 on competition-level events?


Yes. Cars with MS-8 sometimes win. All the cars with MS-8 (at least the Team JBL cars with MS-8s) won or placed at SBN. Who knows about the other teams' cars with hidden MS-8s? Maybe they won too.

I've said over and over that winning doesn't mean cars are right, though. I've heard plenty of contest winning cars that SUCK! None of the MS-8 cars I heard sucked, though.


----------



## radarcontact

I can't bear to read 264 pages of MS-8 discussion...and I don't want to start a new thread, so maybe I can just get simple here for a second:
What type of prep goes into an existing system before hooking up the MS-8?
I'm assuming that I would want to try to get my amps' gains optimized first? Or does the JBL adjust voltage input to make this happen?
What about phase? Does the unit check and adjust phase?
I know crossover freqs, slope, t/a, etc are all taken care of (perfect for me).

I'm eventually going to use a massive audio nx5 (4x100+1x400) and my current Alpine MRP-F240 (2x40+1x100) to run my speakers as follows:
(5x) 100 watts each to front 6.5" mid-bass in doors, rear 5.25" fills in back sides, center (yet to be designed/constructed/installed)
(2x) 40 watts each to front "upper end combo units" (3" mids passively crossed to silk dome tweeters)
(1x) 400 watts to the sub, of course.

Any thoughts or sugestions to the above??


----------



## subwoofery

radarcontact said:


> I can't bear to read 264 pages of MS-8 discussion...and I don't want to start a new thread, so maybe I can just get simple here for a second:
> What type of prep goes into an existing system before hooking up the MS-8?
> I'm assuming that I would want to try to get my amps' gains optimized first? Or does the JBL adjust voltage input to make this happen?
> What about phase? Does the unit check and adjust phase?
> I know crossover freqs, slope, t/a, etc are all taken care of (perfect for me).
> 
> I'm eventually going to use a massive audio nx5 (4x100+1x400) and my current Alpine MRP-F240 (2x40+1x100) to run my speakers as follows:
> (5x) 100 watts each to front 6.5" mid-bass in doors, rear 5.25" fills in back sides, center (yet to be designed/constructed/installed)
> (2x) 40 watts each to front "upper end combo units" (3" mids passively crossed to silk dome tweeters)
> (1x) 400 watts to the sub, of course.
> 
> Any thoughts or sugestions to the above??


Everything is in the manual  Less pages to read

Kelvin


----------



## quietfly

radarcontact said:


> I can't bear to read 264 pages of MS-8 discussion...and I don't want to start a new thread, so maybe I can just get simple here for a second:
> What type of prep goes into an existing system before hooking up the MS-8?
> I'm assuming that I would want to try to get my amps' gains optimized first? Or does the JBL adjust voltage input to make this happen?
> What about phase? Does the unit check and adjust phase?
> I know crossover freqs, slope, t/a, etc are all taken care of (perfect for me).
> 
> I'm eventually going to use a massive audio nx5 (4x100+1x400) and my current Alpine MRP-F240 (2x40+1x100) to run my speakers as follows:
> (5x) 100 watts each to front 6.5" mid-bass in doors, rear 5.25" fills in back sides, center (yet to be designed/constructed/installed)
> (2x) 40 watts each to front "upper end combo units" (3" mids passively crossed to silk dome tweeters)
> (1x) 400 watts to the sub, of course.
> 
> Any thoughts or sugestions to the above??


Actually if you just browse through the last few pages. Andy talks about alot of the questions you asked. 
MY HONEST Advise is take the time read the thread. There is SO MUCH awesome information here, not just from Andy, or Adam, but from SO many other users talking about their experiences and letting you know the pitfalls they have fallen in to themselves. It would be extremely beneficial to read about them and recognise them before you have to make your own "OMG i'm setting up my MS8 and look what happened" post. 
*"History, those who chose to ignore it, are often bested by it..... "*

JMO YMMV


----------



## acidbass303

just wondering, is there any app out there which can automatically all the 200+ pages of this awesome thread and convert it into a single offline readable file (e.g PDF)?
would be great.


----------



## AndyInOC

I prefer to read a long thread such as this from the last page and work backwards. You'll find more valid answers that way and many tricks from people that have had it a while longer and tinkered with it longer. Much like this forum the ms8 is a tool and the more effort put into it, the better your end result will be.


----------



## radarcontact

AndyInOC said:


> I prefer to read a long thread such as this from the last page and work backwards. You'll find more valid answers that way and many tricks from people that have had it a while longer and tinkered with it longer. Much like this forum the ms8 is a tool and the more effort put into it, the better your end result will be.


I agree that I should read it all, something I would normally do...but I got through about the first 6 pages and people were still asking when it was gonna be available, etc. Got impatient...

My ms-8 gets here in two days. Then I'll study the manual completely as it will be about a month before I get to do the install.

Thanks.


----------



## Tendean17

radarcontact said:


> I agree that I should read it all, something I would normally do...but I got through about the first 6 pages and people were still asking when it was gonna be available, etc. Got impatient...
> 
> My ms-8 gets here in two days. Then I'll study the manual completely as it will be about a month before I get to do the install.
> 
> Thanks.


For warming up ..

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq.html


----------



## AndyInOC

You don't have to read it all (although I did) start from this page and work backwards. You will hit the most useful stuff sooner



radarcontact said:


> I agree that I should read it all, something I would normally do...but I got through about the first 6 pages and people were still asking when it was gonna be available, etc. Got impatient...
> 
> My ms-8 gets here in two days. Then I'll study the manual completely as it will be about a month before I get to do the install.
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## AAAAAAA

Where did my post about the EQ go?

Anyone else find the EQ isn't super effective? I find that I need to max out a band to hear a slight difference.63hz max outed makes almost no differnence whats so ever. 

What do others think?


----------



## radarcontact

Tendean17 said:


> For warming up ..
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq.html


Cool, thanks!


----------



## radarcontact

AndyInOC said:


> You don't have to read it all (although I did) start from this page and work backwards. You will hit the most useful stuff sooner


Yes, that's a very smart approach. I just downloaded the o/m so I have been reading it all morning (on my breaks). Good stuff...I can't wait to get it installed. Then I can sell my LC6i and replace my comp system with separates! Oh yeah...!


----------



## JJAZ

AAAAAAA said:


> Where did my post about the EQ go?
> 
> Anyone else find the EQ isn't super effective? I find that I need to max out a band to hear a slight difference.63hz max outed makes almost no differnence whats so ever.
> 
> What do others think?


It is not a problem I can recognize, but..

Keep in mind that the MS-8 EQ is quite different in its behaviour compared to a "normal" EQ. On a normal EQ you will most often have overlap between the bands, an overlap that extends further the more you tweak a specific band.
The MS-8 tries to calculate the filter to avoid this, thus the EQ actually does shape the response to the same shape that you see on the screen.

Try tweaking both 50, 63 and 80Hz and see if it makes a difference.


----------



## BMWTUBED

Have there been any software upgrades or hardware tweeks to the unit since it was first launched? Should I be looking for a date stamp when buying a new one? I want to avoid any intial bugs if possible.
thanks


----------



## mikesz

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well...none of this is going to be super-great for the passenger. Are you mostly concerned with performance in the driver's seat or is the passenger's seat important too?


What specifically are you referring to as not being great for the passanger? The low mounted center? Do your reasons for running 3-ways in doors hold true for the center? I've read what I can find on your center channel recomendations for large driver and tweeter on top of the dash firing up at the windshield but I just can't do that in my truck without serious modification. I may be misunderstaning though, which is the purpose of this post. 

I have a 96 extended cab silverado that has the same dash and door panel layout as quietfly's Tahoe. I have 7" Seas L18's in the lower doors and larger tweeters (Seas 27TBFCG) in the stock tweeter openings run active at 2khz 24/db. While the MS-8 make a huge improvement everthing seems towards the passanger side which I think the driver placement, specifically the near side woofer, is to blame for. 

The plan for L/R is to shoehorn a dome mid or 3" cone mid in the stock door tweeter openings and a small tweeter in the A pillar with frequencies at ~80/~500/~3500. My main question here is how low is low enough for the mid to midbass crossover? 500hz would be possible with a Dayton RS52 and would be much easier to install than a cone mid.

The options currently rolling around in my head for the center are:
1- 7" midbass (Seas L18) in a half cube sealed enclosure with a larger tweeter (Seas 27TBFCG) in the same area quietfly has highlighted in red (below the dash on the trans tunnel). Frequencies there set at 80/2000.

2- Small mid and tweeter in the small pocket below the headunit with a 7" midbass half cube sealed in quitefly's highlghted red area. Concerned about T/A with the mid to midbass to other front channels here. I quess I could use two MS-8 channels here and give up the sub if it became a problem. Frequencies at ~80/~1000?/~3500. 

3- Same as #2 but with the tweeter in the dash pointing straight up.

Any help you could provide would be much appreciated!

Thanks,
Mike


























[/QUOTE]


----------



## radarcontact

radarcontact said:


> I can't bear to read 264 pages of MS-8 discussion...and I don't want to start a new thread, so maybe I can just get simple here for a second:
> What type of prep goes into an existing system before hooking up the MS-8?
> I'm assuming that I would want to try to get my amps' gains optimized first? Or does the JBL adjust voltage input to make this happen?
> What about phase? Does the unit check and adjust phase?
> I know crossover freqs, slope, t/a, etc are all taken care of (perfect for me).
> 
> I'm eventually going to use a massive audio nx5 (4x100+1x400) and my current Alpine MRP-F240 (2x40+1x100) to run my speakers as follows:
> (5x) 100 watts each to front 6.5" mid-bass in doors, rear 5.25" fills in back sides, center (yet to be designed/constructed/installed)
> (2x) 40 watts each to front "upper end combo units" (3" mids passively crossed to silk dome tweeters)
> (1x) 400 watts to the sub, of course.
> 
> Any thoughts or sugestions to the above??





subwoofery said:


> Everything is in the manual  Less pages to read
> 
> Kelvin


Okay, I just read the o/m cover to cover. Not one of my questions were answered.
On to the FAQ...


----------



## JJAZ

I have played around with the MS-8 for about a week now, and gotten the first impressions. It does a lot of very good things, but there is still a lot of tweaking to be done.

Impressions: The unit is very easy to use, very very easy. The transition range between the drivers is almost always totally smooth and the tonality is great. In my setup it does suffer from excessive sub-level, just like a lot of other people have reported. The kick/mid-bass is lacking a little as well.
My best tuning so far has an EQ that subtracts 3dB from 20-63Hz, add an extra 1-1.5dB from 100-160Hz, plus a 1.5dB dip at 4kHz (and -0.5dB in the sidebands to 4k). This is with a new tweeter position that I threw in for fun yesterday, with an old set of Coral ND48 tweeters, works a hell of a lot better than I thought it would. Before that I used a set of Scan-Speak D2904/600000 mounted in another location, that did not work as well as expected.

I wonder about one thing though. When I calibrate and it does the TA sweep. I can clearly hear my tweeters, midrange and midbass (3-way front) sweeps, but I have not once been able to detect (by ear or by touching the subwoofer cone) the signal for the subwoofer during the TA-calibration? The subwoofer sweep is easily heard in the next series of sweeps though?!? Is this normal?

Calibration is done at -45dB on the MS-8, which seems to work slightly better than -40dB. Gains on the amplifiers are set with pink noise for each driver and a 1/1 octave RTA measurement, the measurements fit within a 5-10dB window.

My stage is fairly stable with the current Coral tweeter setup, but it is not as stable and precise as it was with my old fashioned manually done TA on the headunit.

Biggest issue right now is that I am powering the tweeters from the build-in amps in the MS-8. It sounds okay until I crank it, so I guess I am hitting the limits for the build-in amp. The MS-8 is probably tweaking the hell out of the tweeters to get the level of the tweeters to match my midranges, which works up to a certain level.

Tweeters: Coral ND48
(powered by two channels from the MS-8)

Midrange: Scan-Speak 12M
(powered by 2x200W RMS, PG Xenon 200.4)

Midbass: Peerless SLS 8" (8 Ohm drivers)
(powered by 2x100W RMS, PG Xenon 200.4)

Sub: 4x12" Peerless XLS (low-Qtc sealed setup)
(powered by app. 2.1kW, Celestra DA2k)


----------



## Tendean17

JJAZ said:


> ... I wonder about one thing though. When I calibrate and it does the TA sweep. I can clearly hear my tweeters, midrange and midbass (3-way front) sweeps, but I have not once been able to detect (by ear or by touching the subwoofer cone) the signal for the subwoofer during the TA-calibration? The subwoofer sweep is easily heard in the next series of sweeps though?!? Is this normal?


Yes it's normal .. No need to T/A for Subwoofer (at the first sweep step 1 of 4) .. Ms-8 use smooth transition from Sub to Midbass response (+- 20 Hz to 160 Hz) to get the upfront bass.



JJAZ said:


> ... Biggest issue right now is that I am powering the tweeters from the build-in amps in the MS-8. It sounds okay until I crank it, so I guess I am hitting the limits for the build-in amp. The MS-8 is probably tweaking the hell out of the tweeters to get the level of the tweeters to match my midranges, which works up to a certain level.


Since you only use 4 channel Amps (2 already for Midbass) and your Midrange + Tweeter is close near enough .. I prefer using passive between them. Just add 3,3uF OR 4,7uF non polarize capacitor series to + Tweeter.
When you do the acoustic calibration (the first 1 of 4 sweeps), disconnect or cover the tweeters so the time alignment will be set of the location of the midrange. The tweeter balance will be set by left and right level matching and EQ it. Connect the tweeters again for acoustic calibration of the rest (2,3,4 sweeps) do this for every seat position.


----------



## billymonter

I started following this thread when it had around 90 or so pages. I read every single one and have kept up with it. The thread has been fascinating but at the same time the needless banter is very frustrating. My hope would be for the moderator or a volunteer with the right privileges to delete all the posts which lack any technical information. The reduction in reading and the increased efficiency would be very valuable for the newcomers and would make a better reference tool.
my 2 cents


----------



## 14642

AAAAAAA said:


> Where did my post about the EQ go?
> 
> Anyone else find the EQ isn't super effective? I find that I need to max out a band to hear a slight difference.63hz max outed makes almost no differnence whats so ever.
> 
> What do others think?


Lust like with any EQ, if you're boosting in a null caused by cancellation, no amount of EQ will fill that in. As another poster has explained, MS-8's graphic EQ is designed to implement exactly what you draw, which is much better than standard EQs, which do something entirely different. If you're used to using a different EQ, you may want to try boosting adjacent bands a little bit.

It's really a drawing tool that should be used to draw a new shape. With the auto EQ, there's usually no need for single band adjustments with big boost or cut.


----------



## 14642

mikesz said:


> What specifically are you referring to as not being great for the passanger? The low mounted center? Do your reasons for running 3-ways in doors hold true for the center? I've read what I can find on your center channel recomendations for large driver and tweeter on top of the dash firing up at the windshield but I just can't do that in my truck without serious modification. I may be misunderstaning though, which is the purpose of this post.
> 
> I have a 96 extended cab silverado that has the same dash and door panel layout as quietfly's Tahoe. I have 7" Seas L18's in the lower doors and larger tweeters (Seas 27TBFCG) in the stock tweeter openings run active at 2khz 24/db. While the MS-8 make a huge improvement everthing seems towards the passanger side which I think the driver placement, specifically the near side woofer, is to blame for.
> 
> The plan for L/R is to shoehorn a dome mid or 3" cone mid in the stock door tweeter openings and a small tweeter in the A pillar with frequencies at ~80/~500/~3500. My main question here is how low is low enough for the mid to midbass crossover? 500hz would be possible with a Dayton RS52 and would be much easier to install than a cone mid.
> 
> The options currently rolling around in my head for the center are:
> 1- 7" midbass (Seas L18) in a half cube sealed enclosure with a larger tweeter (Seas 27TBFCG) in the same area quietfly has highlighted in red (below the dash on the trans tunnel). Frequencies there set at 80/2000.
> 
> 2- Small mid and tweeter in the small pocket below the headunit with a 7" midbass half cube sealed in quitefly's highlghted red area. Concerned about T/A with the mid to midbass to other front channels here. I quess I could use two MS-8 channels here and give up the sub if it became a problem. Frequencies at ~80/~1000?/~3500.
> 
> 3- Same as #2 but with the tweeter in the dash pointing straight up.
> 
> Any help you could provide would be much appreciated!
> 
> Thanks,
> Mike


[/QUOTE]

Basically, the big protrusion that is the instrument cluster makes the sail panel a bad location for the tweeter if you're a passenger-side listener and even the base of the a-pillar isn't great for the same reason, despite the other drawbacks. The center below the dash will center the image, but it'll be difficult to get any stage height. 

That doesn't mean that this is going to completely suck or that you should go buy a new car, though. 

I think your proposal for left and right are the best options and the 500Hz crossover is fine. I use 1k in my 3-way setups, usually. I'd put those in and then experiment with the center channel by building a little box for the mid and attaching the tweeter with velcro or something.


----------



## 14642

JJAZ said:


> I have played around with the MS-8 for about a week now, and gotten the first impressions. It does a lot of very good things, but there is still a lot of tweaking to be done.
> 
> Impressions: The unit is very easy to use, very very easy. The transition range between the drivers is almost always totally smooth and the tonality is great. In my setup it does suffer from excessive sub-level, just like a lot of other people have reported. The kick/mid-bass is lacking a little as well.
> My best tuning so far has an EQ that subtracts 3dB from 20-63Hz, add an extra 1-1.5dB from 100-160Hz, plus a 1.5dB dip at 4kHz (and -0.5dB in the sidebands to 4k). This is with a new tweeter position that I threw in for fun yesterday, with an old set of Coral ND48 tweeters, works a hell of a lot better than I thought it would. Before that I used a set of Scan-Speak D2904/600000 mounted in another location, that did not work as well as expected.
> 
> I wonder about one thing though. When I calibrate and it does the TA sweep. I can clearly hear my tweeters, midrange and midbass (3-way front) sweeps, but I have not once been able to detect (by ear or by touching the subwoofer cone) the signal for the subwoofer during the TA-calibration? The subwoofer sweep is easily heard in the next series of sweeps though?!? Is this normal?
> 
> Calibration is done at -45dB on the MS-8, which seems to work slightly better than -40dB. Gains on the amplifiers are set with pink noise for each driver and a 1/1 octave RTA measurement, the measurements fit within a 5-10dB window.
> 
> My stage is fairly stable with the current Coral tweeter setup, but it is not as stable and precise as it was with my old fashioned manually done TA on the headunit.
> 
> Biggest issue right now is that I am powering the tweeters from the build-in amps in the MS-8. It sounds okay until I crank it, so I guess I am hitting the limits for the build-in amp. The MS-8 is probably tweaking the hell out of the tweeters to get the level of the tweeters to match my midranges, which works up to a certain level.
> 
> Tweeters: Coral ND48
> (powered by two channels from the MS-8)
> 
> Midrange: Scan-Speak 12M
> (powered by 2x200W RMS, PG Xenon 200.4)
> 
> Midbass: Peerless SLS 8" (8 Ohm drivers)
> (powered by 2x100W RMS, PG Xenon 200.4)
> 
> Sub: 4x12" Peerless XLS (low-Qtc sealed setup)
> (powered by app. 2.1kW, Celestra DA2k)


 
Yeah, having 10 times the power on the mids that you have on the tweeters definitely makes max output of the tweeters the limiting factor.


----------



## kinsale

My MS-8 is getting delivered today. Very excited to try it. I plan on running active 2 way. My question is right now I'm using a 4 channel bridged to the 2 ways running passive. Should I now go non-bridged to the 2 way running active or use the MS-8 to power the tweets and still run bridged to the woofers?


----------



## rommelrommel

kinsale said:


> My MS-8 is getting delivered today. Very excited to try it. I plan on running active 2 way. My question is right now I'm using a 4 channel bridged to the 2 ways running passive. Should I now go non-bridged to the 2 way running active or use the MS-8 to power the tweets and still run bridged to the woofers?


Either works, but if you have a big 4 channel, bridging it to the mids is going to leave a big power differential between the tweet and mid. You'll be in the same spot as the guy a few posts above possibly... but hell, IMO 20 watts on a tweeter is pretty loud.


----------



## kinsale

I don't listen very loud. I just figured put the power where it was needed more. Thanks!


----------



## JJAZ

Tendean17 said:


> Since you only use 4 channel Amps (2 already for Midbass) and your Midrange + Tweeter is close near enough .. I prefer using passive between them. Just add 3,3uF OR 4,7uF non polarize capacitor series to + Tweeter.


One plan is to do a proper passive crossover, when I have settled on a tweeter location and found the best crossover-frequency.
But I am not a big fan of 1st-order filters, and would never just throw a 3.3uF (or 4.7uF or that matter) cap in there.
If I go passive I will develop a decent passive filter of at least 2nd-order.

Another plan is to add an amp for the tweeters. If I decide not to use a 2-way active center channel, I have enough channels to stay with a 3-way active front.


----------



## Dirtboy

Dirtboy said:


> Just shipped mine off this morning (14 Apr). I got my RA last week. Im still kinda pissed they won't ship the replacement unit to an APO address


OK, got my replacement MS-8 today. I can't install it till after work. Hopefully I won't have any problems with the new unit. Wish me luck...


----------



## kinsale

If i have no center speaker, is the recommendation to use rears or not use rears?

Also when I use -40dB for system level for the calibration, it results in me having to turn my radio almost up to full to get normal volume. Am I doing something wrong?


----------



## JJAZ

Dirtboy said:


> OK, got my replacement MS-8 today. I can't install it till after work. Hopefully I won't have any problems with the new unit. Wish me luck...


No offense, but.. I really do not see the point in your post?!? Why would anyone on the forum benefit from the above info??

You got a new unit, that is great for you... but why post it in this thread? When the unit is installed and you have some relevant input, by all means, post away..

To everyone (including myself): This thread will have a lot more value if we make a best effort in keeping it clean and only post stuff that can be relevant to others (or answer a question/post that someone else made).


----------



## JJAZ

kinsale said:


> Also when I use -40dB for system level for the calibration, it results in me having to turn my radio almost up to full to get normal volume. Am I doing something wrong?


Do you remember to adjust the MS-8 volume back to -6dB after the calibration is done?


----------



## kinsale

JJAZ said:


> Do you remember to turn adjust the MS-8 volume back to -6dB after the calibration is done?


yup you are correct. I was doing the install late last night. I should know better. Thanks for pointing that out.


----------



## Dirtboy

JJAZ said:


> No offense, but.. I really do not see the point in your post?!? Why would anyone on the forum benefit from the above info??
> 
> You got a new unit, that is great for you... but why post it in this thread? When the unit is installed and you have some relevant input, by all means, post away..
> 
> To everyone (including myself): This thread will have a lot more value if we make a best effort in keeping it clean and only post stuff that can be relevant to others (or answer a question/post that someone else made).


Gotcha point. Just a little venting in my frustration of having a bad first unit.

Onto my relevant info:

Installed. 
MS8 at -40
Since I have the rear speakers hooked up to the MS8, I tried my best to level match the other channels to the rears.
All channels were set at around 57-60db.
Ran the setup in the drivers (left) seat only due to time constraints.
Soundstage is at dash level, bass is a bit too low for me and the rears are still a bit too loud. But otherwise it sounds pretty good.
So, played with the eq, balanced more to the front and it sounds much better.
I'll have to play around with it a bit more to see if I can get it to sound any better.

Oh, and this unit hasn't shut off yet, so that's a good sign.


----------



## 2009JOHNCOOPERWORKS

Adding a kenwood 9980 headunit and would like to run the ms-8 active.


what settings should be adjusted during setup?( ie crossover,slope and such)

I know that the passive crossovers need to be removed and plan to power the tweets and 6x9s with the ms-8 and the 4 in,6.5 in mids with the alpine pdx f4 amp.

anything else that needs attention ? will the focal mids hold the power of the amp? if using all 8 channels of ms-8 for the focal speakers how do i get signal to the sub amp? any tips tricks or suggestions?

my equipment
165 vr3 focal polyglass 3 ways
6x9 focal polyglass
10 in morel sub

alpine pdx f4 amp
alpine pdx m6 amp


----------



## Jprice2708

2009JOHNCOOPERWORKS said:


> Adding a kenwood 9980 headunit and would like to run the ms-8 active.
> 
> 
> what settings should be adjusted during setup?( ie crossover,slope and such)
> 
> I know that the passive crossovers need to be removed and plan to power the tweets and 6x9s with the ms-8 and the 4 in,6.5 in mids with the alpine pdx f4 amp.
> 
> anything else that needs attention ? will the focal mids hold the power of the amp? if using all 8 channels of ms-8 for the focal speakers how do i get signal to the sub amp? any tips tricks or suggestions?
> 
> my equipment
> 165 vr3 focal polyglass 3 ways
> 6x9 focal polyglass
> 10 in morel sub
> 
> alpine pdx f4 amp
> alpine pdx m6 amp


You will either have to run both of your rear speakers mono from the one channel, or run the tweeters and mids passive - the MS8 doesn't have enough outputs to run 3 way full active front, plus rears and sub


----------



## 2009JOHNCOOPERWORKS

could i use the headunits sub output for signal ?


----------



## 14642

NO! Don't use the head unit output for the sub. Use the mids and tweeters on two channels with the passive crossover. Use 2 channels for the midbass, 2 channels for the rear and you'll have 2 channels left over for the sub.

Or, if the Alpine amps have a x10 switch on the crossover, you could use the crossover in the amp to divide between the mids and tweeters. Then you won't need the passive.


----------



## 2009JOHNCOOPERWORKS

Thanks Andy

will the ms-8 have enough power for the 4 inch mids and the tweets? should I add another amp to the system?


----------



## subwoofery

2009JOHNCOOPERWORKS said:


> Thanks Andy
> 
> will the ms-8 have enough power for the 4 inch mids and the tweets? should I add another amp to the system?


PDx F4 to power passive mid+tweet (2 channels) and midbass (2 channels) 
PDx M6 to power subwoofer 
MS-8 to power 6x9 rears 

Kelvin


----------



## 2009JOHNCOOPERWORKS

Kelvin

Do you know if the alpine pdx f4 has a x10 switch?

Thanks
JCW


----------



## subwoofery

2009JOHNCOOPERWORKS said:


> Kelvin
> 
> Do you know if the alpine pdx f4 has a x10 switch?
> 
> Thanks
> JCW


None, zip, nada. 

Kelvin


----------



## 2009JOHNCOOPERWORKS

I only have enough room for a arc xxd 4080 .jl xd400 or the jbl digital amp, would any of the three have a x10 switch?


----------



## alachua

When you say the JBL digital amp, am I correct in assuming you mean the MS-A1004? If so, that is the only one of the group that would accommodate the crossover settings you need. Also, consider the Kenwood XR-S4, as that also will have the necessary crossovers, and is quite tiny.


----------



## 2009JOHNCOOPERWORKS

Looking for a deal on the kenwood or the jbl. any source for a discount?

How do you wire up a amp with a x10 switch to the ms-8? 2 outputs from the ms-8 to the amp and then would the amp spilt the signal into 4 channels?


----------



## quality_sound

yup.


----------



## jhnkvn

Some questions and confirmation on facts gathered so far:

1) If you're going to run a 3-way semi-active setup on the front (midrange-tweet, midbass), I would first disconnect the tweet, run the T/A, then reconnect it after the first sweep?

2) I'm running a 3-way front, no mid, no rear. Which means I MUST turn Logic 7 off?

3) MS8 on -30 to -40 on calibration then -10 to -7 afterwards?

Yep, very simple questions. From what I can gather, all questions should yield a "Yes" but I'm just checking just in case. Especially with #1.. wouldn't want to screw that up.


----------



## Tendean17

jhnkvn said:


> 1) If you're going to run a 3-way semi-active setup on the front (midrange-tweet, midbass), I would first disconnect the tweet, run the T/A, then reconnect it after the first sweep?


True .. Disconnect or cover the tweeters so the time alignment will be set of the location of the mids.



jhnkvn said:


> 2) I'm running a 3-way front, no mid, no rear. Which means I MUST turn Logic 7 off?


With no Rear and no Center .. Turn Logic 7 Off.



jhnkvn said:


> 3) MS8 on -30 to -40 on calibration then -10 to -7 afterwards?


If you use MS-8's internal amps start with -20dB .. 
If you're using additional amps, you'll have to turn it down more .. start with -40dB and set the gain in all your amp down and after calibration, turn the gain of the amp up until you're happy.


----------



## JJAZ

Tendean17 said:


> True .. Disconnect or cover the tweeters so the time alignment will be set of the location of the mids.


Try both.. According to Andy it usually works best if you disconnect the tweeter. Yesterday I hooked my setup from 3-way active to 2-way (passive between tweeter and midrange @ 7kHz), and I forgot to disconnect the tweeters. But.. I got the best soundstage so far!!!




Tendean17 said:


> With no Rear and no Center .. Turn Logic 7 Off.


Use Logic-7 if you like the sound of it, otherwise just turn it off. This really is a no brainer.




Tendean17 said:


> If you use MS-8's internal amps start with -20dB ..
> If you're using additional amps, you'll have to turn it down more .. start with -40dB and set the gain in all your amp down and after calibration, turn the gain of the amp up until you're happy.


That does not make sense. Set the amp gains near 2V and do the calibration at app. -40dB. For me that did not give me enough loudness at maximum volume, though.

But I see no point in setting the amp gains so low that you have to manually adjust them after the calibration, this kinda defeats part of the calibration. Set the gains correct, then do the calibration at the appropriate level on the MS-8 (I am doing it at -45dB and that works like a charm).


----------



## Tendean17

JJAZ .. sorry if you think i made wrong post for you .. but i try to search Andy's post about that to clarify .. Maybe you can reply jhnkvn's post to help him.



Tendean17 said:


> True .. Disconnect or cover the tweeters so the time alignment will be set of the location of the mids.
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Wehmeyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> My suggestion is to do a 2-way in the front and use two channels for the rears. Since you only need one seat optimized, this will work great without a center. Connect the mids and tweeters on one output (per side) of MS-8. The crossover between them can be outboard active or passive. When you do the acoustic calibration, (the first of the 4 sweeps), disconnect or cover the tweeters so the time alignment will be set of the location of the mids. The tweeter balance will be set by left and right level matching and EQ.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Wehmeyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Front tweeeters on the dash on separate MS-8 channels and combine side and rear on two channels. If you can put the whole center on the top of the dash, that'll be best. Use a passive network between them and use a single channel for the center.
> 
> Or, put the front tweeters on the dash, use the passive that came with them, use 4 channels for sides and rears and one for center. If you choose this option, use the suggestion above for covering or disconnecting the front tweeters so the time alignment will be set for the front midrange location.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Wehmeyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you're running a 2-way in the front with passive crossovers, try covering the front tweeters during the first set of sweeps. That will cause MS-8 to tie align for the mids and should firm up your center image.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...




Tendean17 said:


> With no Rear and no Center .. Turn Logic 7 Off.
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Wehmeyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why is that scary? If yo have no center or rear speakers, turn L7 off. It won't do anything for you. If you have rears or a center, L7 is pretty helpful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Wehmeyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest turning L7 off if you DON'T HAVE REAR SPEAKERS and using it IF YOU DO. The level setting algorithm is designed to match the levels of the front, center, rear and side speakers and to set the subwoofer level about 3dB louder than I like it. That means that when you turn off L7, you'll have to adjust the fader toward the front if you want front stage and a little sound from the rear without L7.
> 
> For those of us IASCA peeps who are used to front with no rear, the rears will sound too loud without L7, but to a non-competitor who likes to have sound from everywhere (my dad), this will sound great. For those super-technical bonus-point-scooping competitors, adjusting the fader a few notches to the front ought to be a pretty simple adjustment, but it sounds better with L7, so why not just turn it on?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Wehmeyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't have rears or a center, don't use L7. If you have rears and no center, try L7. If you have a center and no rears, add rears and use L7.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...




Tendean17 said:


> If you use MS-8's internal amps start with -20dB .. If you're using additional amps, you'll have to turn it down more .. start with -40dB and set the gain in all your amp down and after calibration, turn the gain of the amp up until you're happy.
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Wehmeyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ahhh...now we're getting somewhere. Turn the gains all the way down on your amps for this experiment. Check speaker polarity--especially front midrange.
> 
> Try this--process of elimination:
> 
> 1. Choose skip input setup, since you're using an aftermarket radio.
> 2. Set up the system as a 2-way stereo system using only the front speakers.
> 3. Set the "subsonic" filter for the front at 30Hz and use your selection for the tweeters.
> 4. Run Acoustic calibration.
> 5. Go into the Audio controls menu and turn L7 off.
> 6. Listen and make sure you have a strong phantom center image. If you don't, re-run acoustic calibration at a lower volume level until you do.
> 7. Listen for frequency response, but don't pay much attention to the bass. Once there's a good center, the frequency response of this should be good.
> 8 Add the Subwoofer. Your crossover points are probably OK.
> 9. Run acoustic calibration at exactly the same level as before. The sub should be audible, but not loud.
> 10. Listen again. If the frequency response sux, reduce MS-8's volume control and re-calibrate. If there's too much bass but the rest sounds good, try increasing the gain of the sub amp and re-run acoustic calibration.
> 11. Add rear speakers (sides in MS-8's menu).
> 12. Turn all gains up by the same amount until the system is loud enough and doesn't make a bunch of noise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Wehmeyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too much has been made over the years about gain and level setting. Some years ago, systems were made up of a head unit, an EQ, separate electronic crossovers and then amps. Setting levels in these kinds of systems was important, but we no longer use so many analog components in a lengthy signal chain. In a system like that, each component should be driven with the highest level possible before the outputs OR the inputs are clipped. and the signal sent over the wire should be maximized to maximize the signal to noise ratio. The reason for all of this was noise. Too much INPUT sensitivity and too little output voltage would result in system hiss and would boost the level of engine noise, which would be amplified by every component in the chain.
> 
> We no longer have to be so concerned with all of that because systems now are often a head unit, a signal processor of some kind and some amplifiers. Additionally, components now often have differential inputs, which are designed to eliminate the possibility of engine noise.
> 
> So, with MS-8, the analog signal from the source is converted into a digital signal in the unit before anything else happens and we've designed the unit to make setting this level as easy as it can be. The RCAs are fixed input sensitivity and are designed to work with all aftermarket head units without any user intervention. Just plug them in and go. The unit, without EQ, is designed to provide unity gain up to 2.8V, which is plenty. That means if you put 1V in, you get 1V out. If you put 2V in, you get 2V out. If you put 9V in, you'll get 2.8V out but it'll be seriously distorted. When you turn the output of your radio down so that you send 2.8V, you'll get 2.8V that isn't clipped.
> 
> Now, one of the reasons that all of this input sensitivity setting procedure was developed and that many of us suggest things like 10dB of gain "overlap" is because a system that can't clip doesn't sound very loud, especially with recordings that have a high crest factor and little dynamic range compression added to the final mixdown. You *want* your system to clip, but you want to balance that with the amount of noise (hiss) you allow the system to produce. You *don't *want _*much*_ of this clipping to be digital distortion, because that sounds bad.
> 
> If you're using a 4V head unit with MS-8, that provides 3dB of gain overlap. You won't hear much distortion unless you listen to sine waves recorded at 0dB with the volume control turned all the way up. With normal music and the head unit's volume control all the way up, only the transients that are recorded at 0dB will be distorted, but only by 3dB. You won't hear that and if you do, simply backing the volume control of the head unit off by a couple of notches will take care of it.
> 
> Since the MS-8 is designed to provide unity gain, it's sufficient to set the input sensitivity of the amplifiers to the same setting as the output of your head unit for 0dB of gain overlap between MS-8 and your amps). This will ensure no input clipping of your amplifiers and will ensure the least noise possible. Double the input sensitivity will result in an additional 6dB of gain. So, if your head unit is a 4V unit, you can set the input sensitivity of the amps to about 1V, which will give you a total of about 9dB of "overlap". Precision isn't required.
> 
> Because MS-8 also has a volume control, you'll have to manage how you use it. You don't have to use the MS-8 control if you'd prefer to use the one on your radio. If you choose to do this, then you'll need to set the MS-8 volume control at some level that allows the right amount of "input sensitivity" but also allows enough digital headroom for the EQ inside of the MS-8 to operate without running out of bits (that causes digital distortion). I suggest setting the MS-8 control at -6dB to -9dB during listening, unless you boost the bass in MS-8. If you boost, then you should set it lower by about the same amount as you boost and then use your head unit's volume control.
> 
> If this in't enough "gain" for you, then turn the amplifiers up after calibration by the same amount to maintain MS-8's "tune".
> 
> You can determine the point at which your radio outputs about 2.8V by putting the setup disc in your aftermarket radio and running input setup. The point at which you get OK OK OK is the point at which your radio outputs about 2.8V. You can continue to run input setup and MS-8 will Un-EQ and remove any channel delay. If you're using an aftermarlet radio, none of that should be necessary so all of the EQ filters will be set to unity. That means what comes in goes out. If you choose "skip input setup", all of the filters will be set to unity.
> 
> When you run acoustic calibration, MS-8 will set all of the output levels according to the acoustic response in the car. This takes into account the sensitivity of the drivers and their frequency responses. Some outputs will be increased in level and some may be decreased. So long as there's no hiss, the output level and the input sensitivity control of your amps don't matter. Let MS-8 do what it does.
> 
> When you run acoustic calibration, the output of the system can't clip the mic, or things will be ugly. If the mic is clipped during the first set of sweeps, the unit won't be able to locate the initial peak in the response and it won't set time alignment correctly. You'll know this is the case, because there won't be a center image. This is all the volume control setting for acoustic calibration is doing--making sure the system doesn't clip the mics. To ensure this, turn MS-8's volume control DOWN. If you use MS-8's internal amps, -20dB is the highest setting you'll need. If you're using additional amps, you'll have to turn it down MORE. -40, maybe. This setting doesn't matter too much in terms of the final outcome, but the level does change the way MS-8 will boost and cut, because everything has to fit in a "window". The window is big, though.
> 
> This is no different than tuning with a regular EQ. If you boost all the bands to fix holes, you'll have a super loud car and you'll probably have lots of clipping and noise. You'll also probably boost in the interest of filling holes cause by acoustic cancellation, which may overdrive your speakers and cause additional distortion. MS-8 tries NOT to do this, but it can't know for sure. If your response has big holes because you're using an 8" midbass and a 1" tweeter and the wrong crossover point, you may hear distortion because MS-8 is boosting as much as it can to fill a hole that can't be filled. Fix the speaker system. MS-8 can't make gold out of crap.
> 
> If, when you're tuning with a manual EQ, you cut all the bands to remove peaks, then you'll reduce the output voltage of the EQ at frequencies where you've cut and you'll probably want to readjust the input sensitivity of all of the amps to increase the level of the whole system to make up for it. If you think about it, this is how we all tune systems anyway. So long as you don't introduce a bunch of system hiss, this is fine. Cutting a lot and boosting a little is the best method. This is how MS-8's algorithm is designed to work. It works well, but GIGO still applies.
> 
> Once acoustic calibration is complete, if you want to use your head unit's volume control, set MS-8's volume control to -6 and go crazy. If you boost a bunch with MS-8's EQ or sub level control, you may have to turn MS-8's volume control down to leave more digital headroom for the boost. This isn't a defect. This is how digital EQ works. Some digital EQs normalize the response. That would result in everything else being reduced in level as you boost the bass (or the EQ). We didn't do this because it adds complexity to the system and the result of boosting with these systems when you reach the level at which there are no more bits available is counterintuitive.
> 
> If you want to use MS-8's control, do this: Put in a music disc, turn MS-8's volume control DOWN to something like -40 or -50 (so you know you're not clipping the outputs of MS-8 or your amps) and turn up the head unit's volume control. When you hear distortion, you'll know you're either clipping the output of the radio or the inputs of MS-8. Turn the head unit's volume control down until you don't hear any more distortion. This is the maximum usable output of the head unit for MUSIC and for that particular disc. If you listen to another disc with more or less dynamic range compression in the recording, you may find a different volume control setting produces *audible *distortion. This is related to our ability to hear distortion on transients, the length of the transients and how often those transients are repeated. The idea here is that you have control over the amount of clipping you allow. It is what it is and balancing the two volume controls will help you get the most from your system. I think the vast majority of systems will be fine.
> 
> The bass can't clip the mics during sweeps 2-4 either, because the EQ doesn't know what to do. Be sure that the level of the bass is LOW during the sweeps. If you have twelve 15" woofers and you want to wake the neighbors, turn the amp gain WAY down during calibration. The bass should be heard during the sweeps, but you shouldn't feel it. Then, after calibration, turn the gain of the amp up until you're happy. You can't wake the neighbors and have 40dB more bass than mids and highs and maintain the illusion that the bass is in the front of the car, which is what MS-8 is designed to do. You'll have to adjust the gain of the amp to get what you want, because MS-8 tries to eliminate what you want. Let MS-8 do what it does, and then make your adjustment afterward.
> 
> Finally, if the system doesn't play loudly enough, adjust the amplifier input sensitivity control to increase the overall system level. There's no need to use a meter or a scope. Just adjust them all up or down by the same amount to maintain MS-8's EQ and relative level settings. The VMM method won't work because there's a bunch of EQ applied to the signal, which increases and decreases the output voltage at different frequencies. BTW, the VMM method is only slightly more accurate than just setting by ear.
> Don't be confused by all of the "this has to be precisely set to get the most from your system" garbage. If there's no noise (or the noise is low enough that you're not annoyed by it) and your system plays loudly enough, then things are set appropriately.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Wehmeyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> MS-8 is designed to provide bass that's 9dB above the rest of your response. If you like a lot of bass, that's probably not going to be enough for you. When you do acoustic calibration, turn the sub bass amp DOWN. Then, MS-8 will boost the bass a bit. Then, after you've finished, turn the gain on your sub amp up. During the sweeps, if the sub sweep rattles the trunk, it's too loud. If you can feel the sub during the sweeps, it's too loud.
> 
> There is one other possibility, especially if you have a little sealed box and you're using a really low crossover point--if that's the case, MS-8 is trying to get rid of the HUGE peak in your response.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Wehmeyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> The out of phase voice should steer to the rear. That's what Logic7 does.
> 
> MS-8 isn't going to get rid of the bass you feel, but it will get rid of bass that's more than 9dB above the rest. This is why I keep saying to turn the bass amp down during calibration and then turn it back up. MS-8 is designed to make it sound like the bass comes from the front, if possible. That can't happen if the bass is 20dB above the rest of the system. If you don't care about the placement of the bass, but you want a ton of it, then take my suggestion. Turn the gain down, run calibration, turn the gain up.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## kinsale

Running 2 way fronts using the MS8. Problem I am having is that sound is a little hollow sounding. Imaging is great but the vocals are receded and a little lower in volume than the rest of the sound. I am not using Logic 7 as I have no center channel.

I know my tweeters are in phase and I am as sure as I can be that the mids are too. I would have to open up the doors to properly check. 

One question I have is that I did not remove the passive crossovers. I simply ran new cable for the tweeters. That should be ok right? I am using 3500 Hz as my crossover in MS8.


----------



## acidbass303

kinsale said:


> Running 2 way fronts using the MS8. Problem I am having is that sound is a little hollow sounding. Imaging is great but the vocals are receded and a little lower in volume than the rest of the sound. I am not using Logic 7 as I have no center channel.
> 
> I know my tweeters are in phase and I am as sure as I can be that the mids are too. I would have to open up the doors to properly check.
> 
> One question I have is that I did not remove the passive crossovers. I simply ran new cable for the tweeters. That should be ok right? I am using 3500 Hz as my crossover in MS8.


No wonder you are missing the vocal range.
With the passive XO connected, select 1-way when the ms8 asks for front speaker configuration, your problem will definitely be solved. The way you have configured them now, you are missing the whole midrange and midbass.


----------



## kinsale

acidbass303 said:


> No wonder you are missing the vocal range.
> With the passive XO connected, select 1-way when the ms8 asks for front speaker configuration, your problem will definitely be solved. The way you have configured them now, you are missing the whole midrange and midbass.


I have speaker cable going to my woofers in the doors and cable going to the tweeters. I just haven't disconnected the passive crossover from the woofers.
Both woofers and tweeters are running. I just don't know if having the crossover still connected to the woofer is screwing it up.


----------



## acidbass303

kinsale said:


> I have speaker cable going to my woofers in the doors and cable going to the tweeters. I just haven't disconnected the passive crossover from the woofers.
> Both woofers and tweeters are running. I just don't know if having the crossover still connected to the woofer is screwing it up.


So, a speaker wire is going from the amp ( or ms8 ) to the tweeter and another to the woofer from the amp (or ms8) using 2 pairs of ms8 outputs and 4 channels of amplification, right? If yes then you are running an active setup and really should take out the crossover from the woofer's cable path, it will give ms8 more control and you a better sound. Just put a protection capacitor on the tweets though.


----------



## kinsale

acidbass303 said:


> So, a speaker wire is going from the amp ( or ms8 ) to the tweeter and another to the woofer from the amp (or ms8) using 2 pairs of ms8 outputs and 4 channels of amplification, right? If yes then you are running an active setup and really should take out the crossover from the woofer's cable path, it will give ms8 more control and you a better sound. Just put a protection capacitor on the tweets though.


yes, the only I don't know is if the signal passes through the crossover before it gets to the woofer? then the woofer would have been filtered already which is what I do not want.


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## acidbass303

thats exactly what happening, the passive crossover is filtering a signal which already is filtered,... Just take out the passive crossover and run the woofers directly off the amp.


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## kinsale

will do. Thanks for the help.


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## acidbass303

you are welcome


----------



## dlheman

I just installed my MS-8 today and I thought I posted it here rather than creating a new thread. In summary I am one of the happy MS8 owners!

Allow me to briefly explain my sound system to have a good idea of why I am so happy.

I am using AVI LXD160 mids and AVI HF30B tweeter with a custom 24db crossover. Mid on stock location at knee level, while tweeter on kickpanel directly below the mid. This is the best location to my liking on my car Toyota Celica year 2000. The only problem is stage height, and I remeded this by adding ribbon tweeter to play at 10khz, placed on dash. 

The subwoofer is 10" in custom made box with passive radiator, and I have to dial 90degree phase to get the best upfront bass. Amplifier is DLS A5 with it's dedicated channel for subwoofer and can only be set at Low-Pass mode (12db octave) for that channel. 

And my head unit is Nakamichi CD-700.

So install was a breeze, and many thanks for everyone who posted their experience with MS8 as I was able to install it without even reading the manual. However, for the subwoofer channel on my amplifier I thought since I cannot defeat the low-pass, I just max it at 90hz since I want my subwoofer to play at 80hz/12b octave anyway, which the MS8 will handle. Mind you, I do not know if this the correct method but is the only way I can think of. 

After calibration, I switched off the logic 7 and start listening to music.The soundtage is excellent, and it was clearly centred on the centre of the dash. But the bass was gone. I thought there could be two reasons for this, and one being the obvious. The first was because I have my false rear seat/amp rack sitting up covering almost the entire rear passenger room, and the second the ribbon tweeter.

With music still playing, I covered the ribbon tweeter with my palm and the sound stage was still high on dash! WOW! I immediately turn off the system, cut off the ribbon tweeter wiring, and calibrate the MS8 again. And just like that, having my tweeter low on kick panel below the mid, the soundstage is up on the dash without the aid of having another tweeter on the dash~!

So I installed everything back to the car, including the false rear seat/amp rack. Calibrate the MS8 and then I get the upfront bass although not as punchy and don't have the impact yet. I can also hear subbass at the back and is a bit boomy. I can think of three reasons for this and I will investigate;

1. Without processing the midbass was just raw power and being on the door is close to the listener, so the impact can be felt and the loudness was not restricted by any signal alteration (T.A and E.Q). Once processed, the sound of the midbass now moves to the front, away from the listener, so the impact and loudness are reduced. It doesn't mean the midbass dissapears, it is there but not the way it used to be because now it is in front of the listener. 

2. The 90 degree phase for the subwoofer. I know the MS8 is supposed to correct phase, but prior to MS8 my subwoofer is very punchy and was upfront without the boomy at the back. So my next strategy for the subwoofer is to switch defeat the MS8 processor, and dial the 90deg phase and adjust the listening level. Once I get it back to the way it was, I'll calibrate the MS8 again with a hope it sorts the subbass. 

3. Maybe because of the fixed low-pass on DLS amplifier at 90hz/12db octave. 

I think the volume level is just fine, but definitely not as loud as it was before processing. Without the MS8, the amp gain was at 3.5v and was it because of Nak CD700 5 volt output which allowed me to do so and not have it clipping? No idea, all I know was it don't clip one bit and by half max volume it gets impressively loud and going to max volume is not a problem. 
Right now with MS8, I set the gain between 3.5v to 0.2v. With the Nakamichi volume at say 80/100, there's a distortion happening on the MS8 (as notified aswell by the signal input test). So I think to be safe I just don't turn the Nakamichi volume anymore than half, and use the MS8 as master volume. 

Despite all that, I am very impressed because I can see the potential MS8 has which I am yet to explore. The soundstage above the dash is a blessing, and the centre focus on the dash is just amazing. But I personally prefer the centre to be in front of me; 'no problem!' MS8 said. Choose driver listening mode, and adjust the balance level then hello centre in front of me! For rear seats listening position, since I don't have rear seat, I just stick my head between the front seat from the back, and do the listening calibration. Then if dance music is on session, I select 'All' listening position for that I am inside the music feeling.

I am sorry for the lengthy talk, and if some of it don't make any sense I apologise as it is late here and I am too excited to share my experience with everyone.


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## an2ny888

im in the same boat as the previous poster, im using a powered sub and cant defeat the low pass xover, will this affect the ms8 calibration and eq?


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## jhnkvn

Hmm, I'm thinking I might have a faulty Focal KRX3 midrange :worried: Basically, what I have is incredible (yes, incredible LOL!) distortion on the left midrange while perceivable but minimal distortion on the right midrange.

In any case, I used 6 channels on the MS8: 2 for the subwoofer (1 IDMax 12D2V3), 2 for the midbass, 2 for the mid-high (used a 100KRS passive crossover). This is hooked up on an OEM headunit.

Used the following settings:
Subsonic filter: 40hz/12db
Sub/Front: 80hz/12db
Lo/Hi: 800hz/12db (also tried lowering it to 650hz, same massive distortion)
_
Kindly double check if I did the setup right._ Pretty sure I did though  so I'm guessing that the distortion is not from incorrect filters but probably (A) speaker defect or (B) amplifier's whacking up. To test, I'll first swap the two midrange tomorrow, if that fixes the problem then the amp's the culprit, if not, the speaker.

As for the actual MS8, pretty darn satisfied with it. Soundstage is still a bit off the actual middle, but it's nothing a few re-autotunes can't fix. Everything else is simply excellent (save for my midrange problem)


----------



## rdv

jhnkvn said:


> Hmm, I'm thinking I might have a faulty Focal KRX3 midrange :worried: Basically, what I have is incredible (yes, incredible LOL!) distortion on the left midrange while perceivable but minimal distortion on the right midrange.
> 
> In any case, I used 6 channels on the MS8: 2 for the subwoofer (1 IDMax 12D2V3), 2 for the midbass, 2 for the mid-high (used a 100KRS passive crossover). This is hooked up on an OEM headunit.
> 
> Used the following settings:
> Subsonic filter: 40hz/12db
> Sub/Front: 80hz/12db
> Lo/Hi: 800hz/12db (also tried lowering it to 650hz, same massive distortion)
> _
> Kindly double check if I did the setup right._ Pretty sure I did though  so I'm guessing that the distortion is not from incorrect filters but probably (A) speaker defect or (B) amplifier's whacking up. To test, I'll first swap the two midrange tomorrow, if that fixes the problem then the amp's the culprit, if not, the speaker.
> 
> As for the actual MS8, pretty darn satisfied with it. Soundstage is still a bit off the actual middle, but it's nothing a few re-autotunes can't fix. Everything else is simply excellent (save for my midrange problem)



so your woofer to mid transition was 800hz? if you think the low cutoff is the culprit i think you should have raised the xover cut off and not lowered it some more. im not familiar with the specs of your mids but if they were working fine before the ms8 then it just might be the xover point, try raising it to 1k? 

i also couldnt help noticing your subsonic filter was set to 40hz, i feel its a bit high but i dont know the rest of your setup (amps, power, etc)


----------



## dlheman

Hello again.

Last night I did a bit of EQ'ing, and I must admit my EQ knowledge is very basic. So I try to mimic what FM frequency looks like (although my perception is when MS8 EQ shows flat, it actually is FM curve), and adjust it based on sub-bass, mid-bass, mid-range, tweeter eq range. It didn't take long for me to get it to my liking. 

But there was still a boomy noise from the sub-bass, and lowering the subwoofer level from MS-8 didn't seems to help either. So I decided to go to bed as I am happy enough the EQ help a lot with little effort. 

So this morning I tune the MS8 again to solve the boomy subbass. All I can think of was to get the sound to my liking before processing it with MS-8. So first I activated my DLS subwoofer control so I can swap phase and sub level from the driver seat. With MS8 processing off, I adjust the subwoofer via the DLS subwoofer control to find that sweet spot back - and that is at 90 degree phase and about 3/4 on the subwoofer level. (Without MS8, which two RCA cables goes into amplifier from headunit, the sub level is 2/4. I did once pull out one RCA, and the subwoofer sound is less). 

I then re-calibrated the listening positions for driver and passenger. The music plays and it's still boomy, but to go around it, instead of using MS8 sub control I just dial back the sub level from the DLS sub control to exactly half - and its solved. So now I am back to my original subwoofer setting prior to MS8, and the setting I really like. WOW! Mind you, I don't know what MS8 did with the 90deg phase, it either change it or leave it or whatever, as long as I get my sub bass back, I am happy. 

Apart from EQ and sub-bass tuning, I also find it nicer with the Logic 7 mode on. And I am not used to the driver listening mode, as I keep having to see on the middle of the dash to enjoy it. Thankfully there is front listening position, and I really like it on that setting. Is all preference, but thank god MS8 gives plenty of preference options. 

For those who are having trouble with MS8, good luck and I am sure you will be able to get the best out of the processor and learn a lot while doing it!


----------



## jhnkvn

I see, so I should set the subsonic filter to lower. 20hz maybe? I figured that since my IDMax is new (aka 1 hour of break-in), it wouldn't be able to reach frequencies that deep yet so I thought 40hz would be okay for it.

Problem really was a defective midrange. Now I'm just waiting for its replacement 

For those still fabricating their setups, having a loud subwoofer is normal. It wasn't until I folded up the rear seats (front-firing sub) and layed out the woodworks before it mellowed down.

I'll be posting here again but, so far, I'm liking the MS8. Frankly, in our country, most processors are of the Pioneer P90 or the Audison BitOne variety. Based on an installer who's one of the biggest in our country, he gives it a thumbs up for the ease of tuning.


----------



## dlheman

Yes, set subsonic at 20hz and may aswell use 24db octave slope. 

If you can, use side speakers and use the logic 7 for a wider sound stage. 

I simply use my standard rear speakers on stock location powered by MS8, set it as side speakers and highpass it at 100hz / 24db octave. Previously I said I don't like the centre on centre of the dash, but now is actually nice because of the wider sound stage. It definitely helps with my setup and I don't see any reason why it cannot benefits your setup aswell.


----------



## volkom

RS


BuickGN said:


> Andy, what would cause the left side to be much quieter than the right side when you get to the output diagnostics screen? This seems to be a new development. Nothing has changed in regards to the amp or HU settings.
> 
> I'm running a 3-way front and a center. The entire left side is too low, not just one driver. However, it sounds great on music in "driver" and "front" settings. On "passenger" it's terrible. The passenger side is MUCH louder than the driver's side and especially the mid. It may be as simple as doing another tune but I ran out of time.
> 
> Almost forgot, I used the setup disk with my stock HU and the signal was fine.
> 
> Thanks.


Hi,

I've got a very similar problem with my ms-8 but it's after the calibration is complete.
My setup is a 3 way + center + sub (midbass in doors, midrange underseat and tweeter in the a pillar, center is alpine SBS 05DC) HU DSP is defeat 

I've tried : 

- Matching the gain
- Ms8 volume from -30 to -50
- disconnecting the tweeters for the first sweep
- only 3way + sub and 3 way without center/sub
- Reset to Factory default
- Unplug the mic after calibration is complete
- auto EQ for driver + passenger

Before the calibration, all is ok during the pink noise diagnostic but the results are always the same, the right side is at least 12dB louder than the left side. 

Anybody have an idea about how to fix this?


----------



## subwoofery

volkom said:


> RS
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I've got a very similar problem with my ms-8 but it's after the calibration is complete.
> My setup is a 3 way + center + sub (midbass in doors, *midrange underseat* and tweeter in the a pillar, center is alpine SBS 05DC) HU DSP is defeat
> 
> I've tried :
> 
> - Matching the gain
> - Ms8 volume from -30 to -50
> - disconnecting the tweeters for the first sweep
> - only 3way + sub and 3 way without center/sub
> - Reset to Factory default
> - Unplug the mic after calibration is complete
> - auto EQ for driver + passenger
> 
> Before the calibration, all is ok during the pink noise diagnostic but the results are always the same, the right side is at least 12dB louder than the left side.
> 
> Anybody have an idea about how to fix this?


Really? Midrange under your seat? 

Kelvin


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## fish

subwoofery said:


> Really? Midrange under your seat?
> 
> Kelvin



:laugh: I'd like to see that. Hopefully he got midrange & midbass mixed up.


----------



## volkom

It's not my pics but you can see how it looks


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## subwoofery

fish said:


> :laugh: I'd like to see that. Hopefully he got midrange & midbass mixed up.


Apparently not... :worried: 

Kelvin


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## volkom

Imaging and staging are pretty good despite this location, the drawback I think is the usable frequency bandwith is more limited compared to a dash location. But in the same time, the R29 can be cross low so the result are good for my taste^^


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## Wheres The Butta

I'm confused. why under the seats?


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## volkom

Because this setup is used and known to works well in France. The tweeters are already pretty big so adding the mids and goodbye the stealth look^^

I'm not good enought to start cutting and fabricating a custom and good looking location for the mids in the dash. So the easiest way for me was under the seat.


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## JJAZ

volkom said:


> Imaging and staging are pretty good despite this location, the drawback I think is the usable frequency bandwith is more limited compared to a dash location. But in the same time, the R29 can be cross low so the result are good for my taste^^


A Scan-Speak R29 can not be crossed low, no way.. Anything below 2.5kHz (and preferably 24dB/oct.) is suicide with that driver.

I have never seen the "mid-range below seat" before, funny idea


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## jimbno1

I remember a wrire-up on a car years ago that used under seat mids. But they were aimed to reflect off the windsheild.


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## theothermike

Ok so I just acquired a new ms-8 from DAT for a nice price, and i'm stoked to try it out.

Let me confirm everything i have read and my initial plans

Setup:
2 way active front mids and tweeters using an external 4 channel
2 stock rears using stock 6x9's
subwoofers running off external mono

Outputs 1-4 should be assigned to 2 way active frontstage
5-6 should be assigned to rears

leave 7 alone
8 should be assigned to subwoofer.

so a few ?'s
1. when wiring up the ms-8, i know your suppose to only hookup inputs 1 and 2 with rca's from your front outputs of your aftermarket headunit, but since im running the internal amp for the rear speakers do i need to hookup the rear speaker wires to my aftermarket deck and then tap the rear speaker wires into inputs 5 and 6 to provide a input level appropriate for the rears before amplification of the ms8 or do i just run the 2 channel rca and the signal will be sent to the rears for amplification
2. Based off #1's information because im using the internal amplification of the ms8 on a aftermarket deck for the rears do i run the calibration cd. (would only apply if i do have to use the speaker wires i pressume)
3. when trying to initially match the output of the rear speakers being amplified and the front speakers being externally amplified how would i go about intially level matching them prior to running the acoustic calibration? i heard you want to do this prior to running the calibration to achieve best results and minimal boosts or cuts?
4. now since im running internally amplified and externally amplified i know i am to run the calibration at either -20db for internal and -40 for external. where would i set it since im running both....

Thank you for your contribution andy

Mike-


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## SSSnake

Answer to q 1 - NO, RCA inputs 1 and 2 only
q2 - NO
q3 - channel id section of output setup
q4 - start with -30 and play from there. If everything is level matched this should work pretty well.


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## theothermike

ty for the response.


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## Alias essSQuee

I want to ask a detailed question but the forum won't let me without one more post, so disregard this one.


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## SSSnake

NP otherMike


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## s0uthpaw

I'm a bit of a noob at car audio (but I think I have good ears...). I have a problem...

I had a Pioneer Avic f900, and the JBL MS-8 revolutionized the sound I was getting in the car - it was no longer lifeless and crowded. For the first time, I had an appreciable sense of space between the instruments, proper stereo separation, and some life in the sound. And all from an iPod.

I have just upgraded to the Pioneer Avic f930, and the sound has just taken a nosedive. Significantly less spatial resolution, and a real deadening quality to everything, despite recalibrating the JBL MS-8.

I believe the problem is how the Pioneer now takes its audio from the iPod. Previously it was via USB (presumably digital), and I suspect there was headunit processing. Now, it comes from the iPod via a 3.5mm jack (though connecting through the Pod line-out connector). The audio feed may be using the Ipod's DAC, which is truly awful.

My question is, what can I do with the MS-8 to improve the sound? I am really regretting upgrading to the Pioneer Avic f930, despite spending a lot on it...

I would really appreciate any advice.


----------



## quietfly

s0uthpaw said:


> I'm a bit of a noob at car audio (but I think I have good ears...). I have a problem...
> 
> I had a Pioneer Avic f900, and the JBL MS-8 revolutionized the sound I was getting in the car - it was no longer lifeless and crowded. For the first time, I had an appreciable sense of space between the instruments, proper stereo separation, and some life in the sound. And all from an iPod.
> 
> I have just upgraded to the Pioneer Avic f930, and the sound has just taken a nosedive. Significantly less spatial resolution, and a real deadening quality to everything, despite recalibrating the JBL MS-8.
> 
> I believe the problem is how the Pioneer now takes its audio from the iPod. Previously it was via USB (presumably digital), and I suspect there was headunit processing. Now, it comes from the iPod via a 3.5mm jack (though connecting through the Pod line-out connector). The audio feed may be using the Ipod's DAC, which is truly awful.
> 
> My question is, what can I do with the MS-8 to improve the sound? I am really regretting upgrading to the Pioneer Avic f930, despite spending a lot on it...
> 
> I would really appreciate any advice.


the first thing is to determine if it is just the IPOD sound quality that sucks. 
I'd use a known sq CD and see if the sound is still poor. you can also get much better outboard DACS for the IPOD, the one i like is the istreamer By HRT. it is LEAPS and bounds better than the built-in ipod dac. 
You can test 2 ways, one through the AUX in of the MS-8 and the other through the f930. see what sounds better and work from there....


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## manstretch

Does anyone have any experience using an MS-8 in a car with Ford Sync? Is there a bluetooth echo issue with calling?


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## quality_sound

There is nothing wrong with the DAC in any of the iPods. This has been proven many times over.


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## nineball

hopefully i am just looking at this the wrong way and someone can point out the obvious to me.

according to andy and others, when setting up a system for the first time with an ms-8 the amp gains should be set to approximately 2v. as i understand it from that point the ms-8 will run it's sweeps/calibration and adjust the levels of each channel on it's own. 

while i am waiting on jbl to release the ms amps i will be using a lp 4253iq to power my tweets and rear fill, and there are no markings on the amp for input sensitivity. i have been conversing with ray at lp via email about where (approximately) 2v would occur on this amp but not getting far. he is constantly telling me the same thing, that i need to use the method described in their manuals for gain setting (hu at 80-85%, adjust gain up to distortion point, then slightly back down). herein lies my problem. 

how am i supposed to use this method when the ms-8 will auto-adjust levels once the sweep process has been ran? to me it's like putting the horse before the cart - i have to set the gains on the amp to match the input but i won't know the final input value until i have ran the ms-8 calibration, which needs the gains set to ~2v before the calibration is done. it's an endless loop and i don't see a way out. anyone wanna shed some light on this for me?


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## KenNorton

from LP website of 4253IQ: Input sensitivity 150mV-5V.


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## 14642

nineball said:


> hopefully i am just looking at this the wrong way and someone can point out the obvious to me.
> 
> according to andy and others, when setting up a system for the first time with an ms-8 the amp gains should be set to approximately 2v. as i understand it from that point the ms-8 will run it's sweeps/calibration and adjust the levels of each channel on it's own.
> 
> while i am waiting on jbl to release the ms amps i will be using a lp 4253iq to power my tweets and rear fill, and there are no markings on the amp for input sensitivity. i have been conversing with ray at lp via email about where (approximately) 2v would occur on this amp but not getting far. he is constantly telling me the same thing, that i need to use the method described in their manuals for gain setting (hu at 80-85%, adjust gain up to distortion point, then slightly back down). herein lies my problem.
> 
> how am i supposed to use this method when the ms-8 will auto-adjust levels once the sweep process has been ran? to me it's like putting the horse before the cart - i have to set the gains on the amp to match the input but i won't know the final input value until i have ran the ms-8 calibration, which needs the gains set to ~2v before the calibration is done. it's an endless loop and i don't see a way out. anyone wanna shed some light on this for me?


I just looked up the manual for your amp. The input sensitivity is 150mV to 5V. Set the input sensitivity control to about 1/4 of the way up and do the MS-8 calibration. That'll be fine and it's close enough. Doesn't have to be precisely 2V. once setup is done, you can adjust the amp gain for more output if you need it, but i alsways suggest adjusting the front, center (if you have one) and sub amps by the same amount (once again, no need for a scope and a test disc, just use your ears and set it the way you like it).


----------



## nineball

KenNorton said:


> from LP website of 4253IQ: Input sensitivity 150mV-5V.



Yep I know that but that doesn't mean it is linear during adjustment. 



Thanks andy I appreciate the help. Any idea on the ms amps being released? I'd hate to make my next vacation destination watching you make fries


----------



## KenNorton

nineball said:


> Yep I know that but that doesn't mean it is linear during adjustment.
> 
> Thanks andy I appreciate the help. Any idea on the ms amps being released? I'd hate to make my next vacation destination watching you make fries


Like Andy said, it doesn't have to be precise.

I am more concern about the sub-amp gain. In my first calibration, it sounded terrible. No mid bass and twit was harsh. After turning down to even less than 1v (using gain-scale interpolation) the sound is perfect. Bass level can later be adjusted using remote bass switch.

I am now a happy MS-8 user. 

Could be happier with a center, but not sure with the available options. DIN size center speaker or a major dash modification.


----------



## manstretch

manstretch said:


> Does anyone have any experience using an MS-8 in a car with Ford Sync? Is there a bluetooth echo issue with calling?



Andy, 
Has there been any specific testing with Sync? Anything to be aware of? Thanks!


----------



## 14642

I haven't received any reports of difficulties with Synch, but the Sony system in the Ford Flex is a bit of a PITA. Which Ford are you working on?


----------



## manstretch

Andy,
Nothing yet, but I'm considering purchasing a 2012 Focus and was wondering if there were any issues I should consider such as bluetooth echo, impedance problems, etc...


----------



## 14642

I don't think so. Maybe another member here has a synch system and can comment.


----------



## dlheman

Has anybody experiencing awful sound with Logic 7 when using stock side speakers running from MS8 internal amp, when the front speakers setup is a far more powerful setup?

I add ribbon tweeter back to my setup powered by MS8 amp, and the sound is better without logic 7. I barely hear the rear too with logic 7 off. The setup without the ribbon tweeter, I can clearly hear the rear with logic 7 off, and the sound is better with Logic 7 on.

But right now, the setup with ribbon tweeter and logic 7 off beats the previous setup without ribbon tweeter and logic 7 on. 

So, I thought maybe the sides no longer able to keep up as far as logic 7 is concerned, and a more powerful side speaker is required for logic 7 to brings out an even better result than the current setup can produce without logic 7. 

What do you guys think?


----------



## jhnkvn

Well, still waiting for my replacement midrange. Got a question too: If I remember from backreading the thread, the "CD" calibration to be used on a factory headunit is supposed to be some sort of "clipping" indicator right? since it matches the voltage?


----------



## dlheman

Yes, the CD will let you know at which level is maximum. Is very useful even if you're using aftermarket head unit. 

Do follow the instruction manual, it is very sufficient and you should be fine. 

Out of curiosity and a better understanding of how MS8 works, I re did my MS8 calibration based on my amplifier setting before MS8. So I dialed down my gain from about 2v to the gain level I had before MS8 which was 3.5v for both front and sub (Amplifier is DLS A5).

Calibration volume for T.A and E.Q was set to -40 as per instruction manual since I am using external amplifier. Once I am done with the entire calibration setup, I increased the listening volume on my MS8 to -6db, and use my head unit to volume control for listening level. It works!

No subbass/midbass issue, no listening volume issue, everything works.


----------



## Tendean17

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The calibration sweeps are almost impervious to external noise, but be sure to run calibration at a pretty low level.
> 
> For those of you who are sick of waiting for me to tell you how loud the sweeps should be, we finally have another unit in a car in the office and we'll run a bunch of tests in a couple of weeks when i return from traveling. Also investigating the occasional "lack of midbass" claim.


Andy .. some of us still waiting for your report ...


----------



## Technic

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The calibration sweeps are almost impervious to external noise, but be sure to run calibration at a pretty low level.
> 
> For those of you who are sick of waiting for me to tell you how loud the sweeps should be, we finally have another unit in a car in the office and we'll run a bunch of tests in a couple of weeks when i return from traveling. Also investigating the occasional "lack of midbass" claim.


Waiting as well...


----------



## eviling

yeah I hear the midbass lack, but it's so inconsequential when it happens, the way my stage is, it picks it up in the other areas you can't really know if it weren't for my damn car not be deadend enough :-S my biggest complaint about this unit is the low end can be so damn intense, i already have my sub's amp turned down to 40% gains, and pulled back on the EQ on the lows, and it sitll can easily overwhealm me, again probobly woudln't be so bad with a properly deadend car, but what ya gonna do when you're broke and to busy


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## Lanson

I just wanted to say, I got mine hooked up and running, and I am amazed at how easy it was to get to sound good. I'm using the factory speakers and I just added a small sealed sub powered off the MS8 (as are all other channels) in the spare tire well while I work on the fiberglass box to go in there later. Firing it up for the first time, I realized exactly what Andy has been saying for, oh, 200 pages or so. 

It just freaking works! It doesn't follow the typical car audio logic, and at first turning the processing on feels weird, but when you stop analyzing it and just start listening to your favorite tracks, that's when you realize that it is doing its job (which is to make a multi-channel audio system sound great.)

Special thanks to Andy's PM help, all the advice was taken and the system worked exactly as planned.


----------



## Lanson

eviling said:


> yeah I hear the midbass lack, but it's so inconsequential when it happens, the way my stage is, it picks it up in the other areas you can't really know if it weren't for my damn car not be deadend enough :-S my biggest complaint about this unit is the low end can be so damn intense, i already have my sub's amp turned down to 40% gains, and pulled back on the EQ on the lows, and it sitll can easily overwhealm me, again probobly woudln't be so bad with a properly deadend car, but what ya gonna do when you're broke and to busy



Run the calibration at a lower level. It will be quieter than you might think.


----------



## ramsa1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I just looked up the manual for your amp. The input sensitivity is 150mV to 5V. Set the input sensitivity control to about 1/4 of the way up and do the MS-8 calibration. That'll be fine and it's close enough. Doesn't have to be precisely 2V. once setup is done, you can adjust the amp gain for more output if you need it, but i alsways suggest adjusting the front, center (if you have one) and sub amps by the same amount (once again, no need for a scope and a test disc, just use your ears and set it the way you like it).


Andy, I am a little confused by your recomendations wrt setting gains. If the input sensitivity is 150mV to 5V then approx. 2 volts should be around 1/2 way up. (This is my understanding assuming the control is linear, I may be wrong) 
Your recommendation is for 1/4 way up. Can you please explain this to me.
Thanks


----------



## JJAZ

ramsa1 said:


> Andy, I am a little confused by your recomendations wrt setting gains. If the input sensitivity is 150mV to 5V then approx. 2 volts should be around 1/2 way up. (This is my understanding assuming the control is linear, I may be wrong)
> Your recommendation is for 1/4 way up. Can you please explain this to me.
> Thanks


The sensitivity control is not linear, it follows the logarithmic scale.


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## ramsa1

JJAZ said:


> The sensitivity control is not linear, it follows the logarithmic scale.


OK cool. Now I have to readjust my gains. Can anyone advise me where 2v may be on my gain control marked 150mv to 8v.
thanks


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## Lanson

Honestly it is a crapshoot because the 2v you are thinking of is almost never, ever reached. 

Why don't you just set it at about a 1/4, do the tune, and go from there?


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## instalher

i must be the only guy on here to not like the ms-8. i just cant get my car to sound good no matter what i due.. even after talking to Gary and getting advise from Andy it still sucks.. so to that extent iam ripping it out of my bmw and replacing it with the zapco dsp-8 sorry jbl i expected more from you.. especially for tech support.. i talked to 4 different jbl people and all told me different answers and none worked,.. bought may 3 for 899..00 cnd and will sell for what its worth.... 600cnd..


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## kaigoss69

instalher said:


> i must be the only guy on here to not like the ms-8. i just cant get my car to sound good no matter what i due.. even after talking to Gary and getting advise from Andy it still sucks.. so to that extent iam ripping it out of my bmw and replacing it with the zapco dsp-8 sorry jbl i expected more from you.. especially for tech support.. i talked to 4 different jbl people and all told me different answers and none worked,.. bought may 3 for 899..00 cnd and will sell for what its worth.... 600cnd..


Mind posting your system and car?


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## Lanson

When you're done, you're done. We know it works in BMW's given the success of guys like Gary, but there's no reason you have to like it..that's a personal call.


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## instalher

car is a 06 325i with the basic sound system.. i have replaced the doors 4 inch speakers with the diamond audio hex 4inch with a .12mh coil... mounted them to the door and sealed up the door with dyamat and 1/4 inch abs plastic..nice and tight.. in the sail pillar i have moulded in a tang band 25-1719 ceramic tweeter. i have placed on it a cap @ 6600hz/6db. in the stock centre channel location i dropped in a dayton audio rs52. i removed the stock speakers under the seats and dropped in a pair of earthquake sws 8s and left the stock speakers in the back.. no subs for now...set it all up and zero bass or midbass.. good midrange and excellent tweeters and imaging with logic 7 on.. logic 7 off.. and whoa crapola... checked for speaker phase, not an issue.. all speakers running off the ms-8.


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## Technic

instalher said:


> car is a 06 325i with the basic sound system.. i have replaced the doors 4 inch speakers with the diamond audio hex 4inch with a .12mh coil... mounted them to the door and sealed up the door with dyamat and 1/4 inch abs plastic..nice and tight.. in the sail pillar i have moulded in a tang band 25-1719 ceramic tweeter. i have placed on it a cap @ 6600hz/6db. in the stock centre channel location i dropped in a dayton audio rs52. i removed the stock speakers under the seats and dropped in a pair of earthquake sws 8s and left the stock speakers in the back.. no subs for now...set it all up and zero bass or midbass.. good midrange and excellent tweeters and imaging with logic 7 on.. logic 7 off.. and whoa crapola... checked for speaker phase, not an issue.. all speakers running off the ms-8.


Something tells me that you have several problems in your system _unrelated_ to the MS-8. 

I have installed around 6 MS-8 so far -all in BMW and including mine- and all sounded great. It is very difficult to mess the calibration up. And whatever is lacking the 31-band can take care of it.


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## kaigoss69

instalher said:


> car is a 06 325i with the basic sound system.. i have replaced the doors 4 inch speakers with the diamond audio hex 4inch with a .12mh coil... mounted them to the door and sealed up the door with dyamat and 1/4 inch abs plastic..nice and tight.. in the sail pillar i have moulded in a tang band 25-1719 ceramic tweeter. i have placed on it a cap @ 6600hz/6db. in the stock centre channel location i dropped in a dayton audio rs52. i removed the stock speakers under the seats and dropped in a pair of earthquake sws 8s and left the stock speakers in the back.. no subs for now...set it all up and zero bass or midbass.. good midrange and excellent tweeters and imaging with logic 7 on.. logic 7 off.. and whoa crapola... checked for speaker phase, not an issue.. all speakers running off the ms-8.


I'm not surprised.

1. The MS-8 does not have enough power for the SWS-8s. That speaker wants at least 100W and you are giving it 18W. Put an amp in there and see what happens.

2. The center is a dome midrange and only plays down to 500Hz. I would imagine it sounds a bit "tinny". You really want a coax in there that can go down to at least 150Hz.

The MS-8 cannot work properly if you don't even give it a chance...


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## quality_sound

instalher said:


> car is a 06 325i with the basic sound system.. i have replaced the doors 4 inch speakers with the diamond audio hex 4inch with a .12mh coil... mounted them to the door and sealed up the door with dyamat and 1/4 inch abs plastic..nice and tight.. in the sail pillar i have moulded in a tang band 25-1719 ceramic tweeter. i have placed on it a cap @ 6600hz/6db. in the stock centre channel location i dropped in a dayton audio rs52. i removed the stock speakers under the seats and dropped in a pair of earthquake sws 8s and left the stock speakers in the back.. no subs for now...set it all up and zero bass or midbass.. good midrange and excellent tweeters and imaging with logic 7 on.. logic 7 off.. and whoa crapola... checked for speaker phase, not an issue.. all speakers running off the ms-8.


Why are you using passive croovers in the system? MS-8 has enough channels to handle what you've described. I wouldn't be surprised if you were having some serious conflicts between the MS-8 and your home-built passives.


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## kaigoss69

quality_sound said:


> Why are you using passive croovers in the system? MS-8 has enough channels to handle what you've described. I wouldn't be surprised if you were having some serious conflicts between the MS-8 and your home-built passives.


If he did it correctly it should work but I agree, it could be another potential issue the MS-8 can't overcome.

He doesn't have enough channels though to go active, if he wants to use his rears...


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## 14642

Putting a cap on the tweeters in any system that uses active crossovers is good practice--it'll prevent pops from making it to the tweeters--which can damage them. Also, if the amp should fail, it'll prevent DC from killing the tweeters. Usually, you want to choose a frequency at least an octave below your iintended crossover point or lower. 6kHz is too high, but that's not why the system sounds bad.

The woofers need more power and the center would be better if it could play flat down to 200Hz or so. A dome midrange may play that low, but it probably won't be flat. This is why it doesn't sound good--much of the center channel information is lost and isn't routed to left and right because that frequency is determined by the crossover value you enter for the center high pass. If you enter 200Hz and your center speaker won't play that, they it's lost. That's a big deal. 

I'm sorry that it didn't work in your BMW and with the speaker system you installed. The factory speakers in that car are good ones. In fact, the system I built in my volvo uses all factory BMW drivers.


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## 14642

In fact, we have the same system in a car here (one of the marketing guys' kids) and we installed an MS-8 and used all the factory drivers. Awesome. Not quite enough bass for Michael, though. We added a sample of an upcoming powered sub and everyone was happy.

The assumption that the woofers under the seats in the BMW are substandard is wrong and unfortunate. For a low powered system they're great. For a higher powered system, they make seriously good midbass drivers so long as they're high-passed at 60Hz or so.


----------



## 14642

fourthmeal said:


> I just wanted to say, I got mine hooked up and running, and I am amazed at how easy it was to get to sound good. I'm using the factory speakers and I just added a small sealed sub powered off the MS8 (as are all other channels) in the spare tire well while I work on the fiberglass box to go in there later. Firing it up for the first time, I realized exactly what Andy has been saying for, oh, 200 pages or so.
> 
> It just freaking works! It doesn't follow the typical car audio logic, and at first turning the processing on feels weird, but when you stop analyzing it and just start listening to your favorite tracks, that's when you realize that it is doing its job (which is to make a multi-channel audio system sound great.)
> 
> Special thanks to Andy's PM help, all the advice was taken and the system worked exactly as planned.


Thanks! Congrats and for the rest of you, this is precisely what the MS-8 was designed to do.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> In fact, we have the same system in a car here (one of the marketing guys' kids) and we installed an MS-8 and used all the factory drivers. Awesome. Not quite enough bass for Michael, though. We added a sample of an upcoming powered sub and everyone was happy.
> 
> The assumption that the woofers under the seats in the BMW are substandard is wrong and unfortunate. For a low powered system they're great. For a higher powered system, they make seriously good midbass drivers so long as they're high-passed at 60Hz or so.


Yeah but I'm guessing you were probably working with the L7 system and instalher is said he has the "base" system which may be the one without tweeters. If he has the HiFi system he would probably be better off putting the OEMs back in since those speakers aren't all that bad and just need some LOVE from the processor to sound good.


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## 14642

No, this one we have here is the base system. No L7. No center either. Sounds beautiful in one seat. Bass up front, image from pillar to pillar, singer on the hood. 5 minutes to run autotune and 3 minutes with his kid to make some high frequency adjustments because he likes it that way. Saved that as a preset and saved flat as another. He demonstrates it all the time for people who come to the office and italways gets a "wow, really?"


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## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, this one we have here is the base system. No L7. No center either. Sounds beautiful in one seat. Bass up front, image from pillar to pillar, singer on the hood. 5 minutes to run autotune and 3 minutes with his kid to make some high frequency adjustments because he likes it that way. Saved that as a preset and saved flat as another. He demonstrates it all the time for people who come to the office and italways gets a "wow, really?"


Then you are probably referring to the HiFi system, with the tweeters in the sails. The base system has a 4" paper driver in each door, and a 6" paper midbass under each seat.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, this one we have here is the base system. No L7. No center either. Sounds beautiful in one seat. Bass up front, image from pillar to pillar, singer on the hood. 5 minutes to run autotune and 3 minutes with his kid to make some high frequency adjustments because he likes it that way. Saved that as a preset and saved flat as another. He demonstrates it all the time for people who come to the office and italways gets a "wow, really?"


Andy, is there a particular trick to get more stage depth? You said the vocal image in that BMW is on the hood. In my BMW, it is probably at the windshield. I am using a center though, does that in some way limit the stage depth? Also, you said that the rear speakers contribute to stage depth and that sides contribute to stage width. I have the sides and rears connected in parallel (not enough channels) so could that be my problem?

What would you do?


----------



## Lanson

kaigoss69 said:


> Andy, is there a particular trick to get more stage depth? You said the vocal image in that BMW is on the hood. In my BMW, it is probably at the windshield. I am using a center though, does that in some way limit the stage depth? Also, you said that the rear speakers contribute to stage depth and that sides contribute to stage width. I have the sides and rears connected in parallel (not enough channels) so could that be my problem?
> 
> What would you do?


Ears perked for the answer on this one. I'm right at windshield as well.


----------



## acidbass303

fourthmeal said:


> Ears perked for the answer on this one. I'm right at windshield as well.


Same here...


----------



## jhnkvn

Andy, I'm just interested on why removing/covering the tweeters during the first sweep improves the soundstage on a passive mid-tweet setup. Is it because of conflicting soundwaves (from the tweeter) and the calibration picks it up?


----------



## quality_sound

He's already covered it but it's because you need to set the T/A for the mids, not the tweeters. If you don't disable/cover the tweeters MS-8 will T/A for them and your image/stage would be off.


----------



## instalher

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, this one we have here is the base system. No L7. No center either. Sounds beautiful in one seat. Bass up front, image from pillar to pillar, singer on the hood. 5 minutes to run autotune and 3 minutes with his kid to make some high frequency adjustments because he likes it that way. Saved that as a preset and saved flat as another. He demonstrates it all the time for people who come to the office and italways gets a "wow, really?"


ok Andy i will replace my dome mid in the centre with a factoy bmw mid up there and cross over at 100hz. i will xover the rears at 300 hz. when the unit promps me for sub i use none.. then i promps me front i input 1. then it wont let me hp more than 100 so my doors are playing 100hz and up i want that to be 160 and up as the 8s are running 63 hz to 160.. why cant i use a higher xover point on the front? also if i run it as a 2way front, i cant add my rear channels? why is this unit limited like this. it should be full bandwith all channels and all channels programable hp lp all pass and band pass.. i will keep trying this unit out if you think its just speaker issues.. please advise.


----------



## 14642

Front 2-way. Subsonic filter at 20-30Hz. Crossover between front low and front high at 200. You have to enter sides before entering rear. If you have only one set (side or rear) enter them as sides (just as it says in the manual). Center 200 Hz. All 4th order. Rear 100Hz and up, 4th order. 

Why is this so hard?


----------



## instalher

if my ms-8 did that then it would be fine.. but mine wont give me the option of having rears.. i get front, sides, centre. thats it. when i set up for front 2 way.. i get rears when i set up for front one way but cant get the low pass on them higher than 100hz. i want 160 off the front! i want my system to play like this. 
front 4 inch and tweeter in parallel with coil on tweet and cap on 4 inch.. off ch.1 high pass at 160hz. unit wont let me do this.. why? 
centre channel 160hz up off channel 3. no problem
under seat 8s 63 to 160 hz bandpass. cant do this either as it dosent allow for bp filter adjustment 
rear stock 160 hz up. no problem.. 
let me make the speaker changes later today and lets recalibrate and then i will discuss with you more,.


----------



## JJAZ

instalher said:


> if my ms-8 did that then it would be fine.. but mine wont give me the option of having rears.. i get front, sides, centre. thats it. when i set up for front 2 way.. i get rears when i set up for front one way but cant get the low pass on them higher than 100hz. i want 160 off the front! i want my system to play like this.
> front 4 inch and tweeter in parallel with coil on tweet and cap on 4 inch.. off ch.1 high pass at 160hz. unit wont let me do this.. why?
> centre channel 160hz up off channel 3. no problem
> under seat 8s 63 to 160 hz bandpass. cant do this either as it dosent allow for bp filter adjustment
> rear stock 160 hz up. no problem..
> let me make the speaker changes later today and lets recalibrate and then i will discuss with you more,.


A little advice or two:

1. Clean up your language if you want quality answers. Using no capital letters and almost no punctuation makes your posts extremely difficult to read and impossible to understand. No one is interesting in having to carefully decipher your sentences just because you did not spend a little effort when you wrote your post.

2. Try to explain exactly what you do and in which order you do it, that makes it a lot easier for us to help you. Write all the steps down instead of a blur of information.

3. To me it sounds like what you do is setting the subsonic filter to 100Hz and not the lowpass filter, when you try to setup the front speakers.

4. Read the f*ck*ng manual. It clearly states that if you only have rear speakers and no side speakers, then you assign side channel to your rear speakers.


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## 14642

Please read the manual and my post above.

And then reread this one:

Set up the front as 2-way. Front Low will be the under seat woofers. Front high will be the mids and tweeters. 

Set up the sides as 1-way. That is for your rear speakers. If you only have one set of speakers behind you, MS-8 recognizes them as sides, no matter what you'd like to call them.

Center is center. 

There is no sub.

Then, front low subsonic filter should be 20-30Hz, 12dB/octave.

Front crossover, which is the point between the 8" under the seats and the 4" should be 200Hz (this is the same as your 160, but the difference probably doesn't matter much). Use 24dB/octave.

Set the center crossover to the same frequency as the front crossover: 200Hz if you believe me, 160 if you don't. 

Set the side high pass to something higher than 100Hz. Use 24dB/octave.

So long as you have enough power for the woofers under the seats, this should sound great. If you're using the factory woofers, it'll be fine. If you replace them with some plastic cone thing with a giant voice coil and a big magnet, then you'll need more power. Aftermarket subs are designed to handle a lot of power and that requires a big coil, which weighs a lot, which REQUIRES more power.


----------



## BuickGN

Just wanted to add a little.... I installed my Massive Audio SK-6 6.5" in the factory center location. Set the crossover the same as my midbasses which are 85hz since my IB15 subs play nicely up there and it's a night and day difference in the front stage. Having a large center REALLY helps when using logic 7. Before there was just something wrong that I couldn't put into words. Whatever that was, it's gone now.


----------



## kaigoss69

quality_sound said:


> He's already covered it but it's because you need to set the T/A for the mids, not the tweeters. If you don't disable/cover the tweeters MS-8 will T/A for them and your image/stage would be off.


My mids and tweets are equidistant to the listening positions. That's why I have never thought about covering the tweets. I guess I can try and see what happens (if I ever get my car back from the shop ).

Andy?


----------



## Tendean17

kaigoss69 said:


> My mids and tweets are equidistant to the listening positions. That's why I have never thought about covering the tweets. I guess I can try and see what happens (if I ever get my car back from the shop ).
> 
> Andy?


I always cover the tweeter but maybe you can consider this :

Andy Wehmeyer : 

Covering the tweeters MAY improve imaging if :

1. The tweeters are ONLY covered during the FIRST set of sweeps for each seat
2. If the tweeters and the midranges are connected to a passive crossover and not driven by separate MS-8 channels
3. If the tweeters and the midranges are mounted in locations that provide VERY different path lengths to the listening position. 

It's a tip, but not a requirement.


----------



## nineball

HOLY CRAP!!!!! 

i FINALLY got around to installing my ms-8 that i have had since december and i am kicking myself in the butt for waiting so long. i ordered the ms-8 and 2 ms-a1004 amps and a ms-a5001 back in late october/early november. the ms-8 came relatively soon but the amps were on backorder (and still are) so i held off installing the ms-8 originally until i received the amps. had some health problems the last month or so and i finally felt good enough to do some work today so i decided to get ready for the amps since they are listed on the jbl store again.

gear:

kenwood x993
dyn md100 and wm160
type-r 6x9 rear
custom built 8 in a sealed enclosure in the trunk

i had some pdx amps temporarily powering my system but i only had a 1.600 and a 2.150, so the dyns were being ran passive of a set of spx-177r xovers, the 1.600 on the sub and the 6x9 left disconnected. it sounded good enough to live with (love the 993) so i never added the ms-8. today i switched to to have the 2.150 on the mw160, 1.600 on the sub, my trusty old coustic power logic 160u on the md100 and the ms-8 powering the rear.

to be perfectly honest i am not sure that i will even want to use the new ms amps when they arrive - that's how good it sounds now after the upgrade. i am sure i will use them, but i am literally blown away at the sound i currently have. i listened to money for nothing 6 times in a row with my ears closed and could not wipe the smile off my face. the image is slightly left of center but i recall reading in the ms-8 thread about changing the angle of your head during calibration so i will play with it more tomorrow. my sub was a little low as well but just an ever so slight increase on the 1.600 gain and it was perfect.

i really can't believe how good it sounds. i have had other active decks (kd-sh1000, 7998, 9887, 800prs) in various configurations over the last few years (ya, i swap gear a lot) and i could never get it to sound as good as the ms-8 did in under a minute. i am really blown away by what has happened - so much so that the neon (my work car that i basically live in due to the amount of driving i do) with the the ms-8 in it will be my ride of choice for the party tomorrow (over the 911 or my bike) just so i can show off the sound system.


----------



## instalher

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Please read the manual and my post above.
> 
> And then reread this one:
> 
> Set up the front as 2-way. Front Low will be the under seat woofers. Front high will be the mids and tweeters.
> 
> Set up the sides as 1-way. That is for your rear speakers. If you only have one set of speakers behind you, MS-8 recognizes them as sides, no matter what you'd like to call them.
> 
> Center is center.
> 
> There is no sub.
> 
> Then, front low subsonic filter should be 20-30Hz, 12dB/octave.
> 
> Front crossover, which is the point between the 8" under the seats and the 4" should be 200Hz (this is the same as your 160, but the difference probably doesn't matter much). Use 24dB/octave.
> 
> Set the center crossover to the same frequency as the front crossover: 200Hz if you believe me, 160 if you don't.
> 
> Set the side high pass to something higher than 100Hz. Use 24dB/octave.
> 
> So long as you have enough power for the woofers under the seats, this should sound great. If you're using the factory woofers, it'll be fine. If you replace them with some plastic cone thing with a giant voice coil and a big magnet, then you'll need more power. Aftermarket subs are designed to handle a lot of power and that requires a big coil, which weighs a lot, which REQUIRES more power.


will do this tomorrow after church and comment.. thanks Andy. p.s. i will fix my punctuation. Sorry about that.. not very computer savy. But ask me to pen a letter and you will love my script! no need to be mad at me because i dont use a computer very often. as far as a manual. The one i got with the unit has less than 4 pages and dosent cover that at all.. Very limited in its description of how the unit works.


----------



## AndyInOC

instalher said:


> will do this tomorrow after church and comment.. thanks Andy. p.s. i will fix my punctuation. Sorry about that.. not very computer savy. But ask me to pen a letter and you will love my script! no need to be mad at me because i dont use a computer very often. as far as a manual. The one i got with the unit has less than 4 pages and dosent cover that at all.. Very limited in its description of how the unit works.


The full owners manual is on the cd that came with your ms8. I downloaded and printed a copy from the JBL website so that I had it in hand during the process.


----------



## nineball

manual

http://www.jbl.com/resources/Brands...latedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/MS-8_OM.pdf


----------



## bengerman

Hey guys. I installed my ms-8 last night. There appears to be a problem with the remote. I calibrated it last night without any problems. This morning, I wanted to calibrate it again and the remote did not work. I read in the other thread that it could be a dead battery. So I swapped in a new one and worked perfectly. After a couple hours, I wanted to adjust the volume and it failed once again. I took it apart, make sure the battery terminals were tight, tightened the PCB board and used the alcohol swap to clean the battery contacts. Still did not work. I then unplugged the display cable at the ms-8 and reconnected it. It worked but only for a few presses. I took it apart and cleaned it once again. Same thing happened. It worked for a few presses only. 

The screen is mounted in the glove box.
a) Could it be the orientation of the screen? I know it uses radio frequency so this is highly unlikely to be the reason.

b) May sound stupid but I highly doubt is the screen protector that came with the screen that is causing the problem. 

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> My mids and tweets are equidistant to the listening positions. That's why I have never thought about covering the tweets. I guess I can try and see what happens (if I ever get my car back from the shop ).
> 
> Andy?


Then there's no need to cover them. It's sometimes helpful when the mid is in the bottom of the door and the tweeter is in the sail panel.


----------



## 14642

nineball said:


> HOLY CRAP!!!!!
> 
> i FINALLY got around to installing my ms-8 that i have had since december and i am kicking myself in the butt for waiting so long. i ordered the ms-8 and 2 ms-a1004 amps and a ms-a5001 back in late october/early november. the ms-8 came relatively soon but the amps were on backorder (and still are) so i held off installing the ms-8 originally until i received the amps. had some health problems the last month or so and i finally felt good enough to do some work today so i decided to get ready for the amps since they are listed on the jbl store again.
> 
> gear:
> 
> kenwood x993
> dyn md100 and wm160
> type-r 6x9 rear
> custom built 8 in a sealed enclosure in the trunk
> 
> i had some pdx amps temporarily powering my system but i only had a 1.600 and a 2.150, so the dyns were being ran passive of a set of spx-177r xovers, the 1.600 on the sub and the 6x9 left disconnected. it sounded good enough to live with (love the 993) so i never added the ms-8. today i switched to to have the 2.150 on the mw160, 1.600 on the sub, my trusty old coustic power logic 160u on the md100 and the ms-8 powering the rear.
> 
> to be perfectly honest i am not sure that i will even want to use the new ms amps when they arrive - that's how good it sounds now after the upgrade. i am sure i will use them, but i am literally blown away at the sound i currently have. i listened to money for nothing 6 times in a row with my ears closed and could not wipe the smile off my face. the image is slightly left of center but i recall reading in the ms-8 thread about changing the angle of your head during calibration so i will play with it more tomorrow. my sub was a little low as well but just an ever so slight increase on the 1.600 gain and it was perfect.
> 
> i really can't believe how good it sounds. i have had other active decks (kd-sh1000, 7998, 9887, 800prs) in various configurations over the last few years (ya, i swap gear a lot) and i could never get it to sound as good as the ms-8 did in under a minute. i am really blown away by what has happened - so much so that the neon (my work car that i basically live in due to the amount of driving i do) with the the ms-8 in it will be my ride of choice for the party tomorrow (over the 911 or my bike) just so i can show off the sound system.


Cool.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Then there's no need to cover them. It's sometimes helpful when the mid is in the bottom of the door and the tweeter is in the sail panel.


Is the "image on the hood" result a secret or do you mind sharing how to do this??? I have the same car as the one you described and my image is at the windshield. Inquiring minds want to know!


----------



## 14642

Use the 31-band EQ. Try some cut between 500Hz and 2kHz and adjust the level of the center channel. Also, try more or less rear (side) output. This will vary by recording. Really dry studio recordings that have little ambience won't do it (like old Lyle Lovett), but recordings with more ambience or a goodlive recording will (Corinne Bailey Rae--Live in New York).


----------



## an2ny888

noob here, can you give a suggestion on what freq on the 31 equalizer i should boost for more midbass?


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Use the 31-band EQ. Try some cut between 500Hz and 2kHz and adjust the level of the center channel. Also, try more or less rear (side) output. This will vary by recording. Really dry studio recordings that have little ambience won't do it (like old Lyle Lovett), but recordings with more ambience or a goodlive recording will (Corinne Bailey Rae--Live in New York).


Thanks Andy, I'll give that a try.


----------



## subwoofery

an2ny888 said:


> noob here, can you give a suggestion on what freq on the 31 equalizer i should boost for more midbass?


Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network 

Kelvin


----------



## bengerman

bengerman said:


> Hey guys. I installed my ms-8 last night. There appears to be a problem with the remote. I calibrated it last night without any problems. This morning, I wanted to calibrate it again and the remote did not work. I read in the other thread that it could be a dead battery. So I swapped in a new one and worked perfectly. After a couple hours, I wanted to adjust the volume and it failed once again. I took it apart, make sure the battery terminals were tight, tightened the PCB board and used the alcohol swap to clean the battery contacts. Still did not work. I then unplugged the display cable at the ms-8 and reconnected it. It worked but only for a few presses. I took it apart and cleaned it once again. Same thing happened. It worked for a few presses only.
> 
> The screen is mounted in the glove box.
> a) Could it be the orientation of the screen? I know it uses radio frequency so this is highly unlikely to be the reason.
> 
> b) May sound stupid but I highly doubt is the screen protector that came with the screen that is causing the problem.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.


I tried everything I could think of this morning, including reseting the ms-8. That did not work. I thought I would just swap the old battery in and IT WORKED!! I guess the new Energizer I bought was dead.


----------



## Bluenote

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Use the 31-band EQ. Try some cut between 500Hz and 2kHz and adjust the level of the center channel. Also, try more or less rear (side) output. This will vary by recording. Really dry studio recordings that have little ambience won't do it (like old Lyle Lovett), but recordings with more ambience or a goodlive recording will (Corinne Bailey Rae--Live in New York).



I have Frt/Ctr/Sides/Sub in L7 mode but haven't been able to adjust my sides. Only Ctr and Sub...am I missing something?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Bluenote said:


> I have Frt/Ctr/Sides/Sub in L7 mode but haven't been able to adjust my sides. Only Ctr and Sub...am I missing something?


I think that would be the fader.


----------



## kaigoss69

Bluenote said:


> I have Frt/Ctr/Sides/Sub in L7 mode but haven't been able to adjust my sides. Only Ctr and Sub...am I missing something?


Fader?!


----------



## Tendean17

In the Main Menu -> Audio Controls -> System Level -> Fader Front and Rear.


----------



## bengerman

control seems to be playing up again. any one know if i can purchase another?


----------



## t3sn4f2

bengerman said:


> control seems to be playing up again. any one know if i can purchase another?


Been asked before, dunno if it's been replied to yet.


----------



## Bluenote

t3sn4f2 said:


> I think that would be the fader.


Ok, thanks for pointing that out...I have played with the fader somewhat...It's very sensitive because it can have an immediate affect on the Frt stage depending on how much you pull to the rear. I just thought there was a direct adjustment for Sides/Rears that was similar to Ctr / Sub. It's cool.


----------



## bengerman

t3sn4f2 said:


> Been asked before, dunno if it's been replied to yet.


thanks for that. i've PMed Andy. just a bit hard to get a replacement or to test another remote as you can't get the MS-8 here. i would be surprised if there were a handful of ms-8 in new zealand. 

whenever i swap the batteries, it works for a while. then dies. i would have to swap the batteries again to get it going. argh!


----------



## theothermike

Is there a reason why when it comes to setting up the initial setup I only have my rears say none... But sides are always there? Is this normal when front is selected as 2 way? How do I get my rears to show up? It just says none... I have my rear deck speakers assigned as side right now but just curious to know.


----------



## nineball

theothermike said:


> Is there a reason why when it comes to setting up the initial setup I only have my rears say none... But sides are always there? Is this normal when front is selected as 2 way? How do I get my rears to show up? It just says none... I have my rear deck speakers assigned as side right now but just curious to know.


been covered many times. unless you have sides (like rear doors) and rear speakers (like your deck) the ms-8 will call your rear speakers "sides".


----------



## kaigoss69

theothermike said:


> Is there a reason why when it comes to setting up the initial setup I only have my rears say none... But sides are always there? Is this normal when front is selected as 2 way? How do I get my rears to show up? It just says none... I have my rear deck speakers assigned as side right now but just curious to know.


This has been discussed before....you don't have enough channels left over for sides AND rears, that's why! In that case, your rear deck speakers will be SIDES.


----------



## B33M3R

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Please read the manual and my post above.
> 
> And then reread this one:
> 
> Set up the front as 2-way. Front Low will be the under seat woofers. Front high will be the mids and tweeters.
> 
> Set up the sides as 1-way. That is for your rear speakers. If you only have one set of speakers behind you, MS-8 recognizes them as sides, no matter what you'd like to call them.
> 
> Center is center.
> 
> There is no sub.
> 
> Then, front low subsonic filter should be 20-30Hz, 12dB/octave.
> 
> Front crossover, which is the point between the 8" under the seats and the 4" should be 200Hz (this is the same as your 160, but the difference probably doesn't matter much). Use 24dB/octave.
> 
> Set the center crossover to the same frequency as the front crossover: 200Hz if you believe me, 160 if you don't.
> 
> Set the side high pass to something higher than 100Hz. Use 24dB/octave.
> 
> So long as you have enough power for the woofers under the seats, this should sound great. If you're using the factory woofers, it'll be fine. If you replace them with some plastic cone thing with a giant voice coil and a big magnet, then you'll need more power. Aftermarket subs are designed to handle a lot of power and that requires a big coil, which weighs a lot, which REQUIRES more power.


Hi Andy,

I've just installed the following in my 2011 BMW E90 (originally base 6 speaker setup)

Front Doors - Focal KRS 100
Centre - Vibe Slick 40 v3
Rear Deck - Vibe Slick 40 v3
Underseats - Earthquake SWS8's 4 ohms 
Processor - JBL MS8
Amp - JBL GTO 1004

Im using the speaker inputs and the MS8 is powering the centre and rears. The GTO is powering the front doors and underseats.

Now I've followed the above setup you suggested but it does'nt really seem to be hitting the mark. The SWS's don't really seem to do anything so I'm assuming the above advice is not really aimed at my particular setup.

Anyway, I've fiddled about and at the moment and got it setup as follows

25hz subsonic filter 24db
Subs x 2
Fronts 1 way crossover 150hz 24db
Centre 1 way crossover 200hz 24db
Rears 1 waycrossover 150hz 24db

I've read somewhere that the gains on an additional amp should be set at 2v to match the MS8's output but the GTO doesn't have this marked. I've adjusted the gains at the point of the speaker test on the MS8's setup by trying to get all the volumes of the speakers to be at the same level prior to going through the Acoustic Calibration.

If I'm honest it does sound good but I don't think I've got it quite right. It sounds quite harsh in the midrange and there's allot of treble. I've also got to drop the centre channel volume down quite a bit after setup else that's all I can really hear. I'm wondering if I should have done anything with the Focal's crossovers as I left them at 0db?

Also I'm not sure I've got the gains set right, they are at about 1/4 for the front doors and just over half for the underseats at present.

Any advice would be appreciated!

Thanks


----------



## kaigoss69

^^^ Try to set-up as a 2-way front. Keep the x-over where it is. No sub. Drop the center x-over to 150. Make sure the levels are matched before calibration (white noise speaker test). After calibration, increase the gains on the SWS-8 amp channels, if needed.


----------



## B33M3R

kaigoss69 said:


> ^^^ Try to set-up as a 2-way front. Keep the x-over where it is. No sub. Drop the center x-over to 150. Make sure the levels are matched before calibration (white noise speaker test). After calibration, increase the gains on the SWS-8 amp channels, if needed.


Hi, thanks for that. I'll give it another try. The SWS8's just didn't seem to do anything when I tried it as 2way front. Should they kick as hard either way?

What do you reckon about the slopes? Means nothing to me if I'm honest!


----------



## subwoofery

theothermike said:


> Is there a reason why when it comes to setting up the initial setup I only have my rears say none... But sides are always there? Is this normal when front is selected as 2 way? How do I get my rears to show up? It just says none... I have my rear deck speakers assigned as side right now but just curious to know.


Been covered numerous times... Please read the manual. 

Kelvin


----------



## BuickGN

B33M3R said:


> Hi, thanks for that. I'll give it another try. The SWS8's just didn't seem to do anything when I tried it as 2way front. Should they kick as hard either way?
> 
> What do you reckon about the slopes? Means nothing to me if I'm honest!


Andy was pretty insistant on 24db slopes with the MS8. I tried just about everything and came back to 24db except for 18db on my sub to lo.


----------



## dlheman

B33M3R said:


> Also I'm not sure I've got the gains set right, they are at about 1/4 for the front doors and just over half for the underseats at present.
> 
> Any advice would be appreciated!
> 
> Thanks


Try set you amplifier gain about 1/3 _*after*_ the halfway point for both your midbass and front speakers channels. Make sure the amplifier x-over for all channels are set to flat. Same goes with the head unit, make sure you turn off any processing (e.q, x-over, loud etc)

Use Andy's x-over points and speaker setup. 

Volume calibration level, try -50. 

During speaker output diagnostic, if your underseat woofer is dominant against the other speakers, set your amplifer gain for the woofer back to halfway point, or until it matches with the rest of the speakers. leave the front speakers gain as is.

If that didn't work, try making your underseat woofer sounds less volume than the rest, but not too low. 

If you haven't already understand how MS8 works, it will boost up volume on EQ range it deems necessary to boost, and likewise it will cut on EQ range it deems necessary to cut based on the information it gathers during acoustical measurement - it does this to hit the target eq curve. If your woofer sounds less volume than the rest, the MS8 will pick it up and boost the volume on the EQ range your underseat woofer is set to play at. 

In my experience, is better for subwoofer to sound less volume than the rest of the speakers during output diagnostic (should not be felt and _just_ audible). That way, I have no issues with subbass/midbass. Perhaps it can also be worked out that way for underseat 8" woofer.

Good luck!


----------



## 14642

^^ this is good advice. Also, be sure that the crossover on the amp is set to "flat".


----------



## ramsa1

Guys, my MS8 sounds fantastic. My only gripe is that on some albums recorded at lower levels, I lack output even with my HU at max volume. If I set the MS8 system volume from -6db to 0db It gets loud enough for me with no audible distortion.

I know the proper fix for this is to raise amp gain a little but I dont want to rip out my seats again to adjust that.
Is there anything wrong with running MS8 volume at 0db on some songs? My sub level and tone controls are centered on the ms8 btw.


----------



## subwoofery

Lack of dynamics if I had to guess. 

Kelvin


----------



## BuickGN

subwoofery said:


> Lack of dynamics if I had to guess.
> 
> Kelvin


Yep. From what I remember Andy saying, if you have anything boosted on the EQ, you need at least that much headroom left in the volume.


----------



## ramsa1

Boosted on the 31 band EQ? Mine is set flat with no boost in tone or sub controls.

I was listening to a Suzanne Vega live performance wit max volume on the hu and ms8. Still sounded fine to me. 
Will listen more carefully next time for any dynamic compression


----------



## EclipseChris

I imagine that this has been covered before in 200 plus pages, but i couldn't find the answer.


Is there a certain procedure when setting amp gains? Should i do it before or after i install the ms8? Or while i install it?


----------



## nineball

EclipseChris said:


> I imagine that this has been covered before in 200 plus pages, but i couldn't find the answer.
> 
> 
> Is there a certain procedure when setting amp gains? Should i do it before or after i install the ms8? Or while i install it?


many, many times. set input voltage on amps to about 2.8v.


----------



## EclipseChris

nineball said:


> many, many times. set input voltage on amps to about 2.8v.


And if they are not labeled?


----------



## nineball

make an educated guess i suppose. the manual will tell you what the total range is. don't fret too much over it, just don't go nuts with your initial setting. i had the same concerns and after the setup was done i slightly adjusted 2 of my 3 down a bit. no harm ho foul.


----------



## EclipseChris

nineball said:


> make an educated guess i suppose. the manual will tell you what the total range is. don't fret too much over it, just don't go nuts with your initial setting. i had the same concerns and after the setup was done i slightly adjusted 2 of my 3 down a bit. no harm ho foul.


Ok great, i still havn't even gotten mine yet. Should be here in a few days.

Thanks!


----------



## BuickGN

ramsa1 said:


> Boosted on the 31 band EQ? Mine is set flat with no boost in tone or sub controls.
> 
> I was listening to a Suzanne Vega live performance wit max volume on the hu and ms8. Still sounded fine to me.
> Will listen more carefully next time for any dynamic compression


I think you will be fine but only Andy can tell for sure. The way I understood it was if you have a frequency boosted by say 5db, you don't want to turn the volume up past -5db. At least that's the way I understood it, I'll probably be corrected soon.


----------



## t3sn4f2

subwoofery said:


> Lack of dynamics if I had to guess.
> 
> Kelvin


x2

You'll be performing some crude dynamic compression on that dynamic track. Crude yet probably indistinguishable from a properly compressed version.

Edit: Assuming he meant low recorded as in dynamic and not actually very low in recorded level.


----------



## ramsa1

t3sn4f2 said:


> x2
> 
> You'll be performing some crude dynamic compression on that dynamic track. Crude yet probably indistinguishable from a properly compressed version.
> 
> Edit: Assuming he meant low recorded as in dynamic and not actually very low in recorded level.


I meant Low recorded level. I also noticed that some of those MFSL album versions are also recorded at lower levels


----------



## Lanson

Remember that the sweeps will be quiet. If, during a sweep, you feel it is more than talking volume, then stop, drop gains and/or drop main gain on unit, and redo.


----------



## t3sn4f2

ramsa1 said:


> I meant Low recorded level. I also noticed that some of those MFSL album versions are also recorded at lower levels


Open up the track in Audacity sound editor, use the "amplify" option on it and see if you can bring up the level a few dB. Might make a differance. Should be an audibly lossless process. although you'll have to end up with an uncompressed format (ie WAV) to keep it the cleanest. Convert to ALAC after to tag and reduce file size.


----------



## Vitty

I sure wish this thing was 10 channel.....I would like to run active 2 way fronts off the MS-8 along with my center, rear doors, rear d-pillars and sub. I'm having a heck of a time dialing in my amps crossover points. I had it dialed in perfect at one point and now I can't seem to find it again. Arggghhh


----------



## 14642

ramsa1 said:


> Guys, my MS8 sounds fantastic. My only gripe is that on some albums recorded at lower levels, I lack output even with my HU at max volume. If I set the MS8 system volume from -6db to 0db It gets loud enough for me with no audible distortion.
> 
> I know the proper fix for this is to raise amp gain a little but I dont want to rip out my seats again to adjust that.
> Is there anything wrong with running MS8 volume at 0db on some songs? My sub level and tone controls are centered on the ms8 btw.


 
No, there's no problem. If the crest factor is high, then the average level is lower and that's why it doesn't sound as loud. You may clip transients, but that's VERY difficult to hear.


----------



## 14642

BuickGN said:


> I think you will be fine but only Andy can tell for sure. The way I understood it was if you have a frequency boosted by say 5db, you don't want to turn the volume up past -5db. At least that's the way I understood it, I'll probably be corrected soon.


 
Technically, this is correct, but it only matters for signals recorded at 0dB. For good recordings that maintain some dynamic range, the transients will be clipped. No big deal.


----------



## akelu

Hate to be that guy, but ive read over 60 pages of this thread and now im just a bit confused as to how to setup the ms-8 with external amps and an aftermarket head unit.

From what i gathered:
Sub gain audible but not thunderous or "feeling it".
About -40db on the ms-8 volume
Gains on amps set to same sensitivity as output (2v)
Volume on head unit set to "speaking" volume.

Is this correct?


----------



## 14642

Volume on head unit doesn't matter. Plug the output of your head into inputs1 and 2. Choose "skip input setup"--your head unit has a stereo full-range output. Then, set up the crossovers and do acoustic calibration with the mic. Turn the bass down at the amp! It's better to have MS-8 boost the bass than try to cut the bass.


----------



## Vitty

When I am trying to adjust crossover settings on my amplifier should I turn the MS-8 processing to inactive? Then once I dial in my settings re-run the calibration and turn it back active?


----------



## subwoofery

Vitty said:


> When I am trying to adjust crossover settings on my amplifier should I turn the MS-8 processing to inactive? Then once I dial in my settings re-run the calibration and turn it back active?


Don't understand what you're asking... With the MS-8, you don't need any Xover engaged on the amp.

Kelvin


----------



## Lanson

I think I have a damn front door woofer out of phase!

Sonofabitch.

It took 60 (yes, 60!) solder points to get the MS8 snuggled in to the factory wiring in my Flex. I think I f-d up somewhere because I pulled the sub signal and realized my front stage is extremely thin. Now granted I'm running stock drivers. Will report back.


----------



## an2ny888

any of you guys experiencing clicking sounds when adjusting the audio controls like fader or balance? any suggestions how to remove it?


----------



## Vitty

subwoofery said:


> Don't understand what you're asking... With the MS-8, you don't need any Xover engaged on the amp.
> 
> Kelvin


I have 13 speakers in my Escalade so I have to kludge a bit to go active crossovers. My front left/right are 2 way, tweet and mid. However, I have the MS-8 set up to think my fronts are 1 way. I then run the 2 channels out of the MS-8 to my amplifier and split the signal between tweet and mid and then use the amplifiers crossover dials. I have been trying to dial in a crossover point of roughly 1200Hz between the mid and tweet and it is proving to be difficult to hit the sweet spot.


----------



## Lanson

an2ny888 said:


> any of you guys experiencing clicking sounds when adjusting the audio controls like fader or balance? any suggestions how to remove it?


I have heard a few ticks, but I have also heard this one EVERY processor I've ever used, including processors onboard amps. As long as they aren't audible when at rest, I'm happy. I imagine you're just hearing the gears and levers as the machine goes about its work.


----------



## subwoofery

Vitty said:


> I have 13 speakers in my Escalade so I have to kludge a bit to go active crossovers. My front left/right are 2 way, tweet and mid. However, I have the MS-8 set up to think my fronts are 1 way. I then run the 2 channels out of the MS-8 to my amplifier and split the signal between tweet and mid and then use the amplifiers crossover dials. I have been trying to dial in a crossover point of roughly 1200Hz between the mid and tweet and it is proving to be difficult to hit the sweet spot.


1.2kHz for any tweeter is too low. Try to hit 2kHz or even higher. 
If your amp doesn't go higher, then you need to buy an external Xover or a new amp. 

Kelvin


----------



## Vitty

I run the Vifa XT25's and their specs show they can handle themselves down that far. I run about 0 gain so I'm not too worried. I had it dialed in about a week and a half ago and it sounded absolutely fantastic. I'm running a Zuki Eleets 4 v2. 

At any rate, for my original question. When I am adjusting my crossovers on the amp should I have the MS-8 processing disabled in the menu? Otherwise I think I am adjusting an adjustment that will otherwise get further adjusted when I re-run calibration. If that makes sense..haha


----------



## Lanson

Are you crazy? And XT25 at ~1.2khz is a big NO.

2.8-3k. Go.


----------



## Lanson

Allow me to elaborate:

Zaph's info

*Vifa XT25 ($48)* - Smoothest and most extended response curve in the group, and resulting CSD is excellent. Good tall order HD above 2kHx, but average 2nd order HD. Poor HD levels of all types below 2kHz, even considering the extended low end. It may have a 500 Hz Fs, but don't think about crossing it below 2kHz LR4 or 2.5kHz LR2. Off axis response curves available. Tested January 2006.


----------



## Vitty

To each their own, sounds great in my application  For all I know though I had it crossed at 2Khz...hard to tell from the amps crossover dials. I'd still like to know if I should turn the MS-8 processing to inactive then tune my crossovers then turn it back to active and re-run calibration or if I should leave the processing on and tune my crossovers and then re-run calibration.


----------



## t3sn4f2

an2ny888 said:


> any of you guys experiencing clicking sounds when adjusting the audio controls like fader or balance? any suggestions how to remove it?


"zipper noise"


----------



## Lanson

More like a rotary phone's ta-tap-tap-tap


----------



## Sirrus

If the MS-8 is doing a large amount of level correction, will that take away from it's ability to perform EQ and other SQ corrections?

Scenario: I'm using MS-8 speaker level outputs for my rear (side) speakers, but external amplifiers for everything else. I've currently got my amp gains down to minimum to combat engine noise. This makes my fronts much quieter than the rears during diagnostics. I've read that if my rears play in the 300-3k range, MS-8 will use them as the fixed level and boost my fronts. I can't help but wonder if I'm missing out on some EQ due to lack of headroom.

Of course, I'm trying to address the engine noise issue, but my question is strictly about the MS-8's behavior.


----------



## subwoofery

Seems like your levels aren't set correctly and that the MS-8's EQ window has been reached. 

Kelvin


----------



## Sirrus

subwoofery said:


> Seems like your levels aren't set correctly and that the MS-8's EQ window has been reached.
> 
> Kelvin


I think you just rephrased my question in the form of an answer... The point is I don't know if this is happening or not. I'm looking for specific information such as the size of the EQ window, level correction windows, etc.


----------



## t3sn4f2

fourthmeal said:


> More like a rotary phone's ta-tap-tap-tap


Well the term that describes it, if in fact it is that, is called zipper noise. But it doesn't necessarily have to sound like a zipper. I've experienced it as consecutive very short duration speaker pops. Much more pronounced when playing a single tone instead of music. Only when the GUI lets you make very fast changes in setting will it sound zipper like. Like in a windows media
player's volume control slider.

"Zipper Noise:

A rapid stepping effect that sounds like a type of distortion. It's sometimes audible when changing parameters in a digital device, especially things like filters, delay times, and gain settings. It is an artifact caused by the quantization of digital control signals for various parameters. In digital controls the changing values are spaced apart and stepped, whereas in analog they are continuous. It becomes noticeable when the resolution of the digital control signal being used to change the parameter is too coarse to avoid audible stepping between successive levels."


----------



## dlheman

Sirrus said:


> I've read that if my rears play in the 300-3k range, MS-8 will use them as the fixed level and boost my fronts. I can't help but wonder if I'm missing out on some EQ due to lack of headroom.


I read MS8 will try to cut first before boosting. Depending on how low is the volume level of your front, or how much louder is your rear - MS8 can go either way. The detail as to how it really works were covered.

However, tuning MS8 is no different than tuning good sounding car sound system, and that is to have good balance sound system. Sound quality is about balance.

In my experience when it comes to speaker output diagnostic:

Get all of your speakers to sound about the same volume _individually_. That means if you are to listen to each speaker directly next to it - they sound about the same. You don't have to get it 100 percent the same volume, MS8 will take care of it, but if the volume difference is too great then you'll get problem.

Imagine if you are powering all standard speakers in car with MS8, you can only choose volume calibration from MS8 and at recommended level of -20.0db. All power on each speaker being equal - from the driver seat, the front being the closest to you should sound the loudest, followed closely by the sides, the rear shelf should sounds less and the sub even lesser. 

If for instance the sides are on the rear door, directly behind the driver seat, and you somehow sit so far back, the side speaker is obviously is going to be the loudest to you in that driver seating positon. Since MS8 aims for front stage, the MS8 will cut the side speaker to match the front, and if necessary boost the front after it cut the side to level match in order to hit the EQ curve for the listening position of the driver. Same goes with the rear shelf and the subwoofer. 

Speaking about the subwoofer, it has been mentioned many times but I'll mention it again; during volume calibration you should not be able to feel it, and just audible. Is obvious why that is the case, if all speaker sounds equal you should not hear it as loud as the front from the driver seat.

If you do this, MS8 will work out the rest and the result will be stunning. Turn on Logic 7 if using sides/rears, if not you may have to notch it forward on the fader. But that's what Logic 7 is for anyway, to bring all 7 speaker location to the front. Utterly brilliant.

So when using external amplifier to power the front, and using internal MS8 amplifier to power the side/rear - do your best with the gain level to match the sound of the rear speaker powered by MS8. 

And keep your speaker location symmetrical; tweeter on sail/door, midrange (if you have one) below the tweeter and above the woofer. Keep it simple and it will work out great.


----------



## Sirrus

Thanks for trying to help dlheman. I know that in an ideal world I would have all my speakers balanced and that's why I qualified my original question to be specifically about what the MS-8 is doing, rather than what I can do to fix it. I'm going to eventually turn up the gain on my amp, but I need to physically relocate it away from the noise source before that is an option.

Here's what I was talking about regarding the loudest speaker:



AdamS said:


> FYI - The level is based on the loudest speaker in the 300 Hz to 3KHz range. If the loudest driver is completely in that range, then the level is based on that driver. Otherwise, if your crossover is in between these two numbers, your reference level could be based on 2 or more drivers.


To be fair, I later found another post on the same topic:



AdamS said:


> That's not accurate. It's more complicated than that. It's a combination of matching to the loudest speaker and EQing to a reference level in a particular frequency range. Sometimes, the result will be louder and sometimes quieter.


Further, I've actually graphed the frequency response with processing on and off and I can SEE that it's boosting my fronts by at least 10 dB. I didn't save the graph so I can't remember the exact amount.

It appears that the information I'm looking for is undocumented, so hopefully Andy can chime in.


----------



## akelu

So, at the moment im running a completely active 2-way front and a sub.

I don't want to go the route of a center speaker as it would be too much modification to my car (i dont need it anyway as im happy to use "both front seat" optimization during the times i have a passenger.

What im curious about though, is the rear speakers. I have spots in the parcel shelf for 6x9 speakers which i could fill and run off the ms-8 amp. They would be firing up onto the rear view mirror and then bouncing towards the front of the cabin.

Would it be a good idea to just buy a very efficient/sensitive 6x9 and enable logic with them in that position ? . Or would this take away too much power from my front stage? 

If its too much hassle to get that rear ambient logic processing, then i wont bother.

Thanks!

Setup:
Front Tweeters: Morel Supremo (2500hz/24)
Amp: Boston Acoustics GTA-802
Front Midbass/range: Crescendo MB-6 7" (65hz/24-2500hz/24
Amp: Boston Acoustics GT-2200
Subwoofer: Re audio SEX 12" (65hz/24)
Amp: Boston Acoustics GTA-800M


----------



## jhnkvn

I'm wondering what slopes are people using on the MS8? So far, using the safe "12db" thinking of going 24db on the front and 18db on the sub. If I remember, Andy was recommending going 24db too.


----------



## Sirrus

Sirrus said:


> Scenario: I'm using MS-8 speaker level outputs for my rear (side) speakers, but external amplifiers for everything else. I've currently got my amp gains down to minimum to combat engine noise. This makes my fronts much quieter than the rears during diagnostics. I've read that if my rears play in the 300-3k range, MS-8 will use them as the fixed level and boost my fronts. I can't help but wonder if I'm missing out on some EQ due to lack of headroom.


So I'm still curious about my original question, but I've made a minor breakthrough with my setup and I wanted to share it with you all. With the following post in mind, I went back out to the car with an SPL meter, EMC8000 and laptop:



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Between 85 and 90 dB is good.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Could even be 80-85 dB. NOT LOUD--including the sub.


Sure enough, I've been running my calibration a -40 db which results in an SPL of about 50 db. It makes sense because my fronts are actually quieter than my rears, which are running off the MS-8. When I brought the volume up to -20 db (which the manual recommends for running off MS-8 power), my sweeps were in the 70-75 db range with bass at about 85 db. After calibration, it was a night and day difference! It's funny how you get used to something and don't realize it's not right, except for that funny feeling in the back of your head.

Feature Request for a future firmware upgrade: Some kind of indicator to tell you how "happy" the MS-8 is with the volume levels during calibration. I bet it could even help with gain setup. Maybe add a gain adjustment step right after crossover configuration with on-screen measurements?


----------



## Sirrus

jhnkvn said:


> I'm wondering what slopes are people using on the MS8? So far, using the safe "12db" thinking of going 24db on the front and 18db on the sub. If I remember, Andy was recommending going 24db too.


Here's your answer from the horse's mouth:



AdamS said:


> Lesson here, unless you really have a need for 2nd order, try not to do it. It's the only way I really know how to make things sound poorly, with or without MS8.


He's recommending 24db. Click "View Post" for more info.


----------



## 14642

Sirrus said:


> So I'm still curious about my original question, but I've made a minor breakthrough with my setup and I wanted to share it with you all. With the following post in mind, I went back out to the car with an SPL meter, EMC8000 and laptop:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure enough, I've been running my calibration a -40 db which results in an SPL of about 50 db. It makes sense because my fronts are actually quieter than my rears, which are running off the MS-8. When I brought the volume up to -20 db (which the manual recommends for running off MS-8 power), my sweeps were in the 70-75 db range with bass at about 85 db. After calibration, it was a night and day difference! It's funny how you get used to something and don't realize it's not right, except for that funny feeling in the back of your head.
> 
> Feature Request for a future firmware upgrade: Some kind of indicator to tell you how "happy" the MS-8 is with the volume levels during calibration. I bet it could even help with gain setup. Maybe add a gain adjustment step right after crossover configuration with on-screen measurements?


 
Cool. Thanks. I keep thinking I'll have a few minutes in the lab to do this, but every day is some new crisis which leaves me no time for any additional testing. 

If I could get one feature request added, this would be the one. It's not a simple addition, though.


----------



## CraigE

In that case, we'll settle for individual channel mute.


----------



## dirtypancakes

Hello Adam, I respect you standing by your product and helping out. I just purchased an MS-8. Love it, but have one problem. Using a 2007 G35x non-bose system. Followed all your advice, but on some tracks there is a bit of distortion in midrange vocals (often female). It sounds like its breaking up, more so that the speakers being overdriven.

I have heard that you may have some firmware to counter this, but I see none posted on the JBL USA website. Any input you can provide to remedy this would be appreciated.


----------



## Lanson

fourthmeal said:


> I think I have a damn front door woofer out of phase!
> 
> Sonofabitch.
> 
> It took 60 (yes, 60!) solder points to get the MS8 snuggled in to the factory wiring in my Flex. I think I f-d up somewhere because I pulled the sub signal and realized my front stage is extremely thin. Now granted I'm running stock drivers. Will report back.


Well I tore into all the wiring and found that I did it right, which means something else is wrong. OR maybe not wrong but not quite right. Fudge.


----------



## beerdrnkr

I just installed my ms-8 and when I loaded the setup disc into my computer so I could burn the setup cd into wav. format I noticed that there's only various pdf files of the instruction manual on there. How do I burn the setup audio in wav. format? Did this disc just not have the audio pre-installed? Any help is appreciated, thanks.


----------



## bengerman

My remote is still not working. I tried doing a hard reset, restore to default settings, moved the display to another location. nothing worked. 

anyone here running the display cable side by side with RCAs and remote turn on? could those cause interference? 

Thanks


----------



## Vitty

beerdrnkr said:


> I just installed my ms-8 and when I loaded the setup disc into my computer so I could burn the setup cd into wav. format I noticed that there's only various pdf files of the instruction manual on there. How do I burn the setup audio in wav. format? Did this disc just not have the audio pre-installed? Any help is appreciated, thanks.


There was a batch of discs that went out without the audio on them. Pretty useful huh? haha  I got stuck with one of these as well.


----------



## Vitty

bengerman said:


> My remote is still not working. I tried doing a hard reset, restore to default settings, moved the display to another location. nothing worked.
> 
> anyone here running the display cable side by side with RCAs and remote turn on? could those cause interference?
> 
> Thanks


Did you try replacing the battery and cleaning the battery contacts inside the remote? My remote sucked until I did both.


----------



## bengerman

yes i have. what did u clean urs with? mine responds for a few clicks then stops working completely



Vitty said:


> Did you try replacing the battery and cleaning the battery contacts inside the remote? My remote sucked until I did both.


----------



## jhnkvn

bengerman said:


> My remote is still not working. I tried doing a hard reset, restore to default settings, moved the display to another location. nothing worked.
> 
> anyone here running the display cable side by side with RCAs and remote turn on? could those cause interference?
> 
> Thanks


Nope. Those don't cause interference especially now that most RCAs are shielded. Maybe the remote's battery's just dead?

EDIT: Wow, I type too long now that there's 2 additional posts above. Send it in for replacement.. seems like a faulty remote. If it works and goes dead, I'd probably be calling the one who distributes this in my country.


----------



## bengerman

i replaced it with a new one, after a few clicks, it just stops working


----------



## Vitty

I cleaned the battery contacts with rubbing alcohol and a q-tip.


----------



## 14642

dirtypancakes said:


> Hello Adam, I respect you standing by your product and helping out. I just purchased an MS-8. Love it, but have one problem. Using a 2007 G35x non-bose system. Followed all your advice, but on some tracks there is a bit of distortion in midrange vocals (often female). It sounds like its breaking up, more so that the speakers being overdriven.
> 
> I have heard that you may have some firmware to counter this, but I see none posted on the JBL USA website. Any input you can provide to remedy this would be appreciated.


Adam is not with Harman any more. You're stuck with me. Please PM me your system and the crossover points you're using and I'll help you out.


----------



## 14642

bengerman said:


> i replaced it with a new one, after a few clicks, it just stops working


Sounds like you need a new remote and display. Please email customer service at www.jbl.com and they'll take care of you.


----------



## 14642

fourthmeal said:


> Well I tore into all the wiring and found that I did it right, which means something else is wrong. OR maybe not wrong but not quite right. Fudge.


What makes you think there's a front woofer out of phase?


----------



## Lanson

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> What makes you think there's a front woofer out of phase?


I thought it might be given the discussions we had (oh... what... 100 pages ago? lol) about midbass, how staging and midbass could be heavily affected by an out of phase input or possibly an output. So, given there was a huge amount of wiring involved in my particular build (the inputs, extension wiring, and same for the ouputs..60 connections in total), I figured I screwed something up. I also briefly thought I had it wrong because one of my Chesky testing discs seemed off center to the right. Eh... other discs were right in the center so that screwed with me a little bit.

I fiddled with it after this post and found that using 12dB/oct slopes instead of 24 on the subwoofer to woofer cross point seems to help a bit. 

For now, I'm going to call it "good", until I get my stock speakers out of there and install the Exodus Neo 6.5EX midbass I've been staring it. I'd install them but I'm also waiting on an amp to power them up. The MS8 won't like powering these 8ohm, low sensitivity drivers I'm afraid.


----------



## quality_sound

It could also just be that the center console or steering wheel are blocking too much of the sound from the left. I had a Passat that did that. No matter what I did short of adjusting the level, the sound pulled right.


----------



## Lanson

Anything is possible but because it only happens on that one disc, I'm not going to worry. It was the Chesky jazz disc with the drum and distance sessions btw. The Jazz stuff is on-point, but the drum and distance stuff is always skewed right. So strange.

At any rate, this is stock speakerific, so I'll get critical when I start installing the real goods.


----------



## 14642

fourthmeal said:


> Anything is possible but because it only happens on that one disc, I'm not going to worry. It was the Chesky jazz disc with the drum and distance sessions btw. The Jazz stuff is on-point, but the drum and distance stuff is always skewed right. So strange.
> 
> At any rate, this is stock speakerific, so I'll get critical when I start installing the real goods.


Is there any chance that the disc is recorded that way? 

I once demo'ed a previous car to a dealer who complained that the high-hat wasn't centered and that the drums in the dave matthews track I played were spread from right to left rather than being in the center of the stage.

I think my response was, "Get out--there's a boom car across the asile and they need your advice."


----------



## Lanson

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Is there any chance that the disc is recorded that way?
> 
> I once demo'ed a previous car to a dealer who complained that the high-hat wasn't centered and that the drums in the dave matthews track I played were spread from right to left rather than being in the center of the stage.
> 
> I think my response was, "Get out--there's a boom car across the asile and they need your advice."


Andy I think its a fluke disc. Being that its a Chesky disc and supposed to be made for doing image testing blah blah you get the idea... I usually use it. On, say, my home system it is center. But every other source, and all my other regular and testing stuff is right on the money so I just think it is a fluke.


----------



## bengerman

hey Andy, if i can get hold of a new remote, will it suffice? i pmed you a couple days ago. cheers



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sounds like you need a new remote and display. Please email customer service at www.jbl.com and they'll take care of you.


----------



## Sirrus

bengerman said:


> hey Andy, if i can get hold of a new remote, will it suffice? i pmed you a couple days ago. cheers


I would think you'd want to go with the free option that Andy suggested. If it's relatively new (which it must be because this thing hasn't been out that long) it should be under warranty and therefore they should send you a replacement. The exception is if there's some issue with you being in New Zealand, but it's worth a shot.


----------



## bengerman

I would definitely take Andy's option. I emailed them. But like you said, because I'm in New Zealand, they wouldnt ship the replacement unit. I guess i need some one in the States to be the 'middle man'. 


Sirrus said:


> I would think you'd want to go with the free option that Andy suggested. If it's relatively new (which it must be because this thing hasn't been out that long) it should be under warranty and therefore they should send you a replacement. The exception is if there's some issue with you being in New Zealand, but it's worth a shot.


----------



## 14642

bengerman said:


> I would definitely take Andy's option. I emailed them. But like you said, because I'm in New Zealand, they wouldnt ship the replacement unit. I guess i need some one in the States to be the 'middle man'.


 
If the regular customer service can't ship you the parts, please PM me your contact info and I'll have someone from the singapore office help out.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Use the 31-band EQ. Try some cut between 500Hz and 2kHz and adjust the level of the center channel. Also, try more or less rear (side) output. This will vary by recording. Really dry studio recordings that have little ambience won't do it (like old Lyle Lovett), but recordings with more ambience or a goodlive recording will (Corinne Bailey Rae--Live in New York).


Did some cutting (1-2 dB) between 500hz and 2khz, played with the fader, and the center, but was not able to move the image up at all. Anyone else try this?


----------



## bengerman

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If the regular customer service can't ship you the parts, please PM me your contact info and I'll have someone from the singapore office help out.


Dropped you a PM. Thanks Andy!


----------



## beerdrnkr

I just installed my MS-8 and no matter what I do I can't get the image centered. I have my midrange in the kicks Midbass in doors, subs in back and my tweeters won't be here til tomorrow so no tweeters currently installed. Anyone have any ideas? 

I've tried moving my head in various directions. All the speakers are assigned correctly. I'm wondering if my headphones are messed up. At startup of my vehicle the Mic is already plugged in, should I wait to plug it in right before calibration? Any help is appreciated. 

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


----------



## kaigoss69

beerdrnkr said:


> I just installed my MS-8 and no matter what I do I can't get the image centered. I have my midrange in the kicks Midbass in doors, subs in back and my tweeters won't be here til tomorrow so no tweeters currently installed. Anyone have any ideas?
> 
> I've tried moving my head in various directions. All the speakers are assigned correctly. I'm wondering if my headphones are messed up. At startup of my vehicle the Mic is already plugged in, should I wait to plug it in right before calibration? Any help is appreciated.
> 
> Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


Midrange out of phase?


----------



## AndyInOC

beerdrnkr said:


> I just installed my MS-8 and no matter what I do I can't get the image centered. I have my midrange in the kicks Midbass in doors, subs in back and my tweeters won't be here til tomorrow so no tweeters currently installed. Anyone have any ideas?
> 
> I've tried moving my head in various directions. All the speakers are assigned correctly. I'm wondering if my headphones are messed up. At startup of my vehicle the Mic is already plugged in, should I wait to plug it in right before calibration? Any help is appreciated.
> 
> Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


By startup of the vehicle you mean just turning the switch to accessory right? Not actually starting the motor on the car? Also check and make sure the Mic is plugged in all the way, it can be very deceiving on a new unit. Also start your sweeps at an extremely low volume (like -50) and work upwards


----------



## Wheres The Butta

On my display, I am getting "please wait." I searched this thread and the tips/tricks thread and the only proposed solution I have found is to check my connections and ensure the plug is firmly inserted into the ms-8 and the display. I have plugged and unplugged and replugged the cable at least 5 times on each end, and have pushed SO firmly that the tip would probably break off if I pushed any harder. The cable is absolutely positively in as far as it can go. Still getting "please wait" - is there anything else that can cause it? 

Is it possible my cable is bad?

also - i tried searching around - is the display cable simply a male/male 3.5mm headphone cable? I noticed one of the ends has a sort of collar around the tip so I was wondering if it was proprietary in any other way. Could I purchase a 3.5mm headphone patch cable to test the display?

*EDIT* just found and tried a 3.5mm patch cable, the plug is definitely NOT 3.5mm gonna try and figure out wtf it is

also, I opened up the display to see if anything was loose - nothing was loose that I could detect.


----------



## beerdrnkr

kaigoss69 said:


> Midrange out of phase?


I'll double check this but I'm pretty sure it's all good. 


AndyInOC said:


> By startup of the vehicle you mean just turning the switch to accessory right? Not actually starting the motor on the car? Also check and make sure the Mic is plugged in all the way, it can be very deceiving on a new unit. Also start your sweeps at an extremely low volume (like -50) and work upwards


Yes, on ACC. I'll give this a shot in the morning too, hopefully it's a simple fix. 

Thanks for the help.


----------



## Bluenote

kaigoss69 said:


> Did some cutting (1-2 dB) between 500hz and 2khz, played with the fader, and the center, but was not able to move the image up at all. Anyone else try this?



Yes I tried it too...What I found was that when I changed the seat setting to Passenger, that was the closest my set-up has sounded to being (on-the-hood). I was quite amazed actually...Sound was within the A-Pillar, Up-Front Bass was very prominent like a sub was in the dash...But it was'nt as detailed or as centered as my Driver setting (don't know why yet). 

Truthfully, I get 3 distinctly different sounds with Driver, Pass, Front...Driver is my favorite and sounds the most natural and dynamic...but Passenger is cool too...Front is somewhere in between... I recalibrating with MS-8 [email protected]/24DB everything...Sounds better with lower sweeps but still cant seem to get my center focused in Passenger setting - though Driver setting is dead center and probably the best overall sound I've had so far...


----------



## EclipseChris

I got mine in the other day and its pretty much blown my mind. I had to get both my parents my sister and girlfriend in the driver sear just to share the experience. I blew their minds too. 

Its tough to tell my dad i spent $500 and him be ok with it... he approves of my latest purchase.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

Update. I did a little looking and it appears to be a 2.5mm trrs plug , and I searched for a vendor in my area that sells them but no dice. Nothing but online vendors... so I guess I am better off getting a one from jbl.


----------



## emoon3

I finished my install this week. Very straight forward. I did have the mid bass issue that it seems like most BMW's have with the MS-8 but I just followed the suggestion of calibrating with the mid gains turned down then turning them up after calibration.

And it sounds absolutely amazing! Very easy to set up, easy to tune. Great product.


----------



## bmxscion

Wheres The Butta said:


> Update. I did a little looking and it appears to be a 2.5mm trrs plug , and I searched for a vendor in my area that sells them but no dice. Nothing but online vendors... so I guess I am better off getting a one from jbl.


Do you need a new cable for the display? I have an extra one if your interested....pm me.


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

According to your own results using the MS-8, how accurate/exaggerated is this before/after demo? I'm considering this unit in my quest for a DSP. Thanks.


----------



## BuickGN

I thought I would post my new tune since it's quite a bit different than most.

The 6.5" center opened up a whole new world of possibilities and SQ.

The subs are lowpassed at 120hz.

Center at 80hz.

Midbass at 120hz

Since I have a dead channel on my 6 channel, I had to put the passives in for the mids and tweeters so those are the factory Dyn 900 and 3500hz. I like it much better with it at 600/24 and 5,000/24 but that will have to wait until I get another amp.

But basically it's an oddball setup with the subs up high at 120hz along with the midbass and the center fairly low at 80hz. After watching excursion, the center has very little. I'm going to keep the subs and midbass where they are but bring the center down around 63hz. The current tune has been my favorite so far. It's so much more solid sounding the lower the center goes. Now I'm seeing the importance of the large center.

You would think it would sound weird with the subs playing so high but it's very nice. The only problem I'm running into is the seat backs are now vibrating which they actually don't do on the low notes, only the 100hz+. Sucks because it makes the bass sound like it's coming from the rear. If I lean forward bass is up front. Not sure if it's worth it but I may see if I can put some deadener on the back of the leather...... Not the seatback but the backside of the leather that comes in contact with the body. Just seems like that might be a little more effective. The leather is in need of replacement so I don't mind experimenting a little. I may bring it back down to around 90hz but I swear the 7" midbass sounds cleaner when high passed higher.

I guess I could have just said run a large center and the lowest high pass you can get away with for best sq lol.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

new update.. today I met with someone who had a working MS-8, and I borrowed their cable and display - the same result again, I got the "please wait" and I guess that means my MS-8 is dead. I tried using the hard reset on both the MS-8 and the display, and again rechecked all my connections. Nothing.

I don't know how or why it happened, all I know is that it's dead. I am really sad, in fact more sad than I let on to the guys at the show, because now I'm dead in the water for competition season. Anyone who knows me or has seen my install knows that I'm meticulous and careful, so I don't know what the hell happened - it's not like I dropped it on the floor... anyway now I've got to figure out if it can be repaired.


----------



## BuickGN

Wheres The Butta said:


> new update.. today I met with someone who had a working MS-8, and I borrowed their cable and display - the same result again, I got the "please wait" and I guess that means my MS-8 is dead. I tried using the hard reset on both the MS-8 and the display, and again rechecked all my connections. Nothing.
> 
> I don't know how or why it happened, all I know is that it's dead. I am really sad, in fact more sad than I let on to the guys at the show, because now I'm dead in the water for competition season. Anyone who knows me or has seen my install knows that I'm meticulous and careful, so I don't know what the hell happened - it's not like I dropped it on the floor... anyway now I've got to figure out if it can be repaired.


Maybe you did this already and I missed it but have you tried the reset button?


----------



## Wheres The Butta

BuickGN said:


> Maybe you did this already and I missed it but have you tried the reset button?


yeah, I said that was one of the things I tried. It's pretty frustrating,especially since I'm not really sure what I did wrong. Hopefully I can find a solution or get it repaired or something. Anyway I guess I'm without processing for a little while. Time to finish the aesthetics of the car meanwhile.


----------



## DAT

i got a used model that works I can sell that to you while you send yours in for the month long wait.


----------



## BuickGN

Wheres The Butta said:


> yeah, I said that was one of the things I tried. It's pretty frustrating,especially since I'm not really sure what I did wrong. Hopefully I can find a solution or get it repaired or something. Anyway I guess I'm without processing for a little while. Time to finish the aesthetics of the car meanwhile.


If it makes you feel any better, each time I fix one thing, something else goes wrong right away. 6 months after I started my project I still haven't heard it in 100% working order. I'm starting to think this is the name of the game in car audio. I lost a channel on my old reliable JL6450 amp, the stock HU went out, subs took 5 months to build, center has been replaced 4 times, etc.

I'm interested to see what the problem with your MS8 turns out to be. Good luck with it.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> According to your own results using the MS-8, how accurate/exaggerated is this before/after demo? I'm considering this unit in my quest for a DSP. Thanks.


that demo is exaggerated to get the point across of course, but the general idea is the same - in my experience, it took sound that was naturally diffuse and made it focused and cohesive, and also did some great work to improve the tonal balance. I have to say I was very pleased with the result, it was beyond what I was capable of doing manually. My tuning skill simply isn't good enough to match what the ms-8 can do, not even if I worked on it for months.




BuickGN said:


> If it makes you feel any better, each time I fix one thing, something else goes wrong right away. 6 months after I started my project I still haven't heard it in 100% working order. I'm starting to think this is the name of the game in car audio. I lost a channel on my old reliable JL6450 amp, the stock HU went out, subs took 5 months to build, center has been replaced 4 times, etc.
> 
> I'm interested to see what the problem with your MS8 turns out to be. Good luck with it.


thanks. hope your build goes more smoothly in the future, maybe we'll both get to report good progress in the time to come


----------



## VP Electricity

south east customz said:


> Ive done alot of BMW's and the factory woofers are really not that great.
> Your Rainbows being harsh? well thats what rainbows do. You really need a tune and i bet it will sound better.
> try to re run setup, two way sub sonic at 20hz rears at 120hz, and same for rainbows.
> honestly they will probably scream at the 120hz on the low end.
> I would suggest doing either the Gladen/audio system 8 (just started using) or kicker ssmb, or even a dls 8 as a midbass. They fit pretty easy and I have used with great results.
> pm me if u need further assistance


Wow... you're like the Sarah Palin of car audio.


----------



## 6spdcoupe

VP Electricity said:


> Wow... you're like the Sarah Palin of car audio.


Wow ! Can't say I didn't see that coming though ...


----------



## 6spdcoupe

Wheres The Butta said:


> new update.. today I met with someone who had a working MS-8, and I borrowed their cable and display - the same result again, I got the "please wait" and I guess that means my MS-8 is dead. I tried using the hard reset on both the MS-8 and the display, and again rechecked all my connections. Nothing.
> 
> I don't know how or why it happened, all I know is that it's dead. I am really sad, in fact more sad than I let on to the guys at the show, because now I'm dead in the water for competition season. Anyone who knows me or has seen my install knows that I'm meticulous and careful, so I don't know what the hell happened - it's not like I dropped it on the floor... anyway now I've got to figure out if it can be repaired.



Unfortunately I have had to replace a few units, but nothing is perfect. JBL/Harmon has been extremely Excellent and super quick in getting new units out. You're in NJ, I would say your total down time would be roughly 10days or so. Although I'm not sure where you bought it from, so that may differ. Just based on my experience the few times that I had to use them for my local clients.


----------



## south east customz

6spdcoupe said:


> Wow ! Can't say I didn't see that coming though ...


? Don't understand ur Internet speak


----------



## radarcontact

I read in this thread that Andy recommends rear fill at >=150 HZ on the low end. What about the top end? My car had 4" rears that blew. I was going to replace them with some 5-1/4" BNIB CDT coax that I have in my "audio closet.". They would be fine, and would be excellent rear speakers, but I'm thinking, "Why go throughout the trouble of fabricating the 5-1/4" units into place when I'm only needing 150 HZ and up?". Get some good 4" FR or mids and sell the CDT. 
(Any first-hand suggestions on some 4" drivers to go with the ms-8? I started to look but haven't spent much time researching. They'll be getting about 40 watts of alpine power for now. Eventually they will be powered by an nx5, but still at about 40-50 watts I'm sure, for balance)


----------



## 6spdcoupe

south east customz said:


> ? Don't understand ur Internet speak


You didn't understand me stating that I can see that coming, but you did understand the initial post that was in reply to yours. Sorry, now I do not understand.


----------



## 14642

radarcontact said:


> I read in this thread that Andy recommends rear fill at >=150 HZ on the low end. What about the top end? My car had 4" rears that blew. I was going to replace them with some 5-1/4" BNIB CDT coax that I have in my "audio closet.". They would be fine, and would be excellent rear speakers, but I'm thinking, "Why go throughout the trouble of fabricating the 5-1/4" units into place when I'm only needing 150 HZ and up?". Get some good 4" FR or mids and sell the CDT.
> (Any first-hand suggestions on some 4" drivers to go with the ms-8? I started to look but haven't spent much time researching. They'll be getting about 40 watts of alpine power for now. Eventually they will be powered by an nx5, but still at about 40-50 watts I'm sure, for balance)


having a tweeter in the rear and/or side speakers is somewhat helpful.


----------



## instalher

boy who the hell did i piss off at jbl.. i make some errors on setting up my ms-8 in my bmw, and get some upfront tech support and responses from Gary and Andy and now nothing.. its like if you cant figure it out.. sucks to be you.. numerous phone calls have been placed with no response, emails sent, no response, facebook messages, no response... and yes i have read the manual, hooked it up right, phase is correct. i just need a little bit more help setting this unit up. sorry iam not the most intelligent person on the planet. i openly admit that, but because i have more problems setting this unit up, does that mean to hell with me, stupid is stupid and we want nothing from you.. thats how i feel right now with jbl...i will ask the board here if they can spot this problem now.. 

i have rewired the speakers as follows to the unit 
channel one front left tweeter with 3500hz passive network.
channel two front right tweeter with 35oohz passive network
channel three front left 4 inch mid.
channel four front right 4 inch mid
channel five stock 4 inch centre
channel six rear left mid
channel seven rear right mid
i have the rcas running out of output 7-8 to an mtx ta4004 amp running two channel mono to the earhtquake sws8
set the unit up as per manual and promps on the screen. go to listen to each speaker and no output. zero.. now what?


----------



## kaigoss69

instalher said:


> boy who the hell did i piss off at jbl.. i make some errors on setting up my ms-8 in my bmw, and get some upfront tech support and responses from Gary and Andy and now nothing.. its like if you cant figure it out.. sucks to be you.. numerous phone calls have been placed with no response, emails sent, no response, facebook messages, no response... and yes i have read the manual, hooked it up right, phase is correct. i just need a little bit more help setting this unit up. sorry iam not the most intelligent person on the planet. i openly admit that, but because i have more problems setting this unit up, does that mean to hell with me, stupid is stupid and we want nothing from you.. thats how i feel right now with jbl...i will ask the board here if they can spot this problem now..
> 
> i have rewired the speakers as follows to the unit
> channel one front left tweeter with 3500hz passive network.
> channel two front right tweeter with 35oohz passive network
> channel three front left 4 inch mid.
> channel four front right 4 inch mid
> channel five stock 4 inch centre
> channel six rear left mid
> channel seven rear right mid
> i have the rcas running out of output 7-8 to an mtx ta4004 amp running two channel mono to the earhtquake sws8
> set the unit up as per manual and promps on the screen. go to listen to each speaker and no output. zero.. now what?


Wait, the ms8 only has 8 outputs. The speaker and RCA outputs can be used either or, but not both. Did you really read the manual?


----------



## acidbass303

instalher said:


> boy who the hell did i piss off at jbl.. i make some errors on setting up my ms-8 in my bmw, and get some upfront tech support and responses from Gary and Andy and now nothing.. its like if you cant figure it out.. sucks to be you.. numerous phone calls have been placed with no response, emails sent, no response, facebook messages, no response... and yes i have read the manual, hooked it up right, phase is correct. i just need a little bit more help setting this unit up. sorry iam not the most intelligent person on the planet. i openly admit that, but because i have more problems setting this unit up, does that mean to hell with me, stupid is stupid and we want nothing from you.. thats how i feel right now with jbl...i will ask the board here if they can spot this problem now..
> 
> i have rewired the speakers as follows to the unit
> channel one front left tweeter with 3500hz passive network.
> channel two front right tweeter with 35oohz passive network
> channel three front left 4 inch mid.
> channel four front right 4 inch mid
> channel five stock 4 inch centre
> channel six rear left mid
> channel seven rear right mid
> i have the rcas running out of output 7-8 to an mtx ta4004 amp running two channel mono to the earhtquake sws8
> set the unit up as per manual and promps on the screen. go to listen to each speaker and no output. zero.. now what?


From what i have seen, JBL has been excellent with their tech support and help. I havent seen or heard any other company with level of support that JBL provides. They will eventually respond to your queries. 
In the meanwhile..
How is your headunit connected to the ms8? Speaker level inputs?

Are you powering your speakers off the ms8? Any outboard amps other than the mono?

How are you configuring your sub output in ms8? Using sub1 and sub2?

Do you hear the sweeps or the diagnostic tone/noise during the setup?

What volume is ms8 at when you are calibrating?

A little more details and may be even a fellow ms8 owner/user will be able to help you out. Plus as pointed out above by kaigoss69, you are using channel 7 both at low level and high level out put.( for the mid and sub)
Run the sub off channel 8,get a Y RCA cable. Though you can mix both high and low level out puts but you cant use a single channel both way.


----------



## instalher

y corded rca output off channel 8 sorry my bad.. there is zero output from the system except through the subs.. no sound otherwise. also the unit gives me the 3 oks. system set at -20. also i have zero output. not a whisper... head unit is off the front speakers from the bmw. I cut the wire and ran them to the m8. and ran new speaker wire to its output stage. i also wired them out of phase, in phase, upside down right side up, it makes no difference. as far as tech support goes.. i spoke with head office they told me one thing. then i spoke direct with Gary and he told me a totally different way, then Andy chimed in on here and gave me another way to due it. now i have done it the way it should be done but to no avail and no one will return my messages. having a learning disability means that i have to work 2xs as hard to get 1/2 the results but that doesnt mean you have to give up on me jbl.


----------



## kaigoss69

Jesus Christ, somebody up in Canada help this guy out!


----------



## acidbass303

instalher said:


> y corded rca output off channel 8 sorry my bad.. there is zero output from the system except through the subs.. no sound otherwise. also the unit gives me the 3 oks. system set at -20. also i have zero output. not a whisper... head unit is off the front speakers from the bmw. I cut the wire and ran them to the m8. and ran new speaker wire to its output stage. i also wired them out of phase, in phase, upside down right side up, it makes no difference. as far as tech support goes.. i spoke with head office they told me one thing. then i spoke direct with Gary and he told me a totally different way, then Andy chimed in on here and gave me another way to due it. now i have done it the way it should be done but to no avail and no one will return my messages. having a learning disability means that i have to work 2xs as hard to get 1/2 the results but that doesnt mean you have to give up on me jbl.


Dont worry i am sure your problem will be solved. And just a little more info on the input connections please. Which inputs are you connecting the wires from your headunit to? Is there a seperate sub out too from your headunit?


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

kinda glad i lost the bid for one of these on ebay yesterday.


----------



## radarcontact

instalher said:


> head unit is off the front speakers from the bmw. I cut the wire and ran them to the m8. and ran new speaker wire to its output stage.


just a thought...
(I also run a bimmer)
On my car, an 06 3-series with the factory Harman Kardon system, the head unit sends a balanced signal to an amp. The amp then sends specific frequency ranges to each speaker, ie a factory active system. Not bad, just underpowered and they used crappy drivers. But the idea was good!

Anyway, if your system is anything like mine, and my guess is that it is...I think you may need to pull the wires BEFORE they get to the amp. After the head unit, but before the amp. The amp may be saturating the ms-8 input stages and it may be going into some sort of protection mode. 

My suggestion is to:
1) find the amp (go to http://bavariansoundwerks.com/ if you have to, find your car and try to find an install manual for one of their subwoofers, it'll lead you to the amp)
2) find the wires that correlate to the fronts. Again http://bavariansoundwerks.com/ may be your savior, or go to another BMW forum and ask around.
3) use those wires to run to your ms-8 as your signal.

Good luck!
P.s.
I haven't hooked mine up yet, so this is probably going to be the most help I'm gonna be able to give ya buddy!


----------



## instalher

system was basic bmw.. again inputs are from the stock deck front door speakers, left and right. found them in the kick panels.. cut the wires... ran the deck side to the input of the ms-8 and ran the speaker side to the outputs of the amp channels 3 for the driver door 4 inch and 4 to the right side door 4 inch.. i added tang band tweeters to the doors and ran the wires from the door to the ms-8 outputs 1 for left side and two for right side. all wire polarity has been visually checked with a speaker poper and the colors for +/_ were verified buy staubtechs wire schmatic. also the deck has no sub out.. sub channels off the ms-8 are playing thu channel 7. When i due the pink noise channel test after all xover points are set. only channel 7 plays and thats the 8s off the mtx amp which is run off the rcas from the ms-8. This tells me only the mtx amp is getting signal so the rca output of the ms-8 is working but maybe the internal amp is pooched? i really dont know how much more input i can give you.. no one out here has any working experience with this product. The help i have recieved from Tony was limited at best but he has more knowledge than i due and he is stumped as well. yes fuse is good and blue light comes on.


----------



## akelu

I've noticed the JBL MS-8 does not time align the sub..

Isnt this a big issue? I know i can detect the difference when bass hits between alligned and unalligned subwoofer.. (ie i usually run about 3.5ms delay for everything but subwoofer).. Even at low levels.. 


Should i be worried? Or does the ms-8 somehow fix this..


----------



## quality_sound

Before we get too far into this, what year and model BMW is it?


----------



## subwoofery

akelu said:


> I've noticed the JBL MS-8 does not time align the sub..
> 
> Isnt this a big issue? I know i can detect the difference when bass hits between alligned and unalligned subwoofer.. (ie i usually run about 3.5ms delay for everything but subwoofer).. Even at low levels..
> 
> 
> Should i be worried? Or does the ms-8 somehow fix this..


I wouldn't worry too much about it. All you need is correct phase between midbass and sub and a smooth transition between 60Hz and 160Hz through the midrange... That's why the MS-8 doesn't use T/A for the subwoofer

Kelvin


----------



## quality_sound

akelu said:


> I've noticed the JBL MS-8 does not time align the sub..
> 
> Isnt this a big issue? I know i can detect the difference when bass hits between alligned and unalligned subwoofer.. (ie i usually run about 3.5ms delay for everything but subwoofer).. Even at low levels..
> 
> 
> Should i be worried? Or does the ms-8 somehow fix this..


Since the sub is usually the farthest away from you that will be the reference point for all of the other speakers so it should be fine.


----------



## akelu

subwoofery said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about it. All you need is correct phase between midbass and sub and a smooth transition between 60Hz and 160Hz through the midrange... That's why the MS-8 doesn't use T/A for the subwoofer
> 
> Kelvin



Correct phase = every posite to positive, negative to negative. I got that.

And i will have the sub and mid level set correctly and crossovers set at a good spot for a smooth transition..

But i dont understand how that will get around the speaker distance between my ears from the mid and the sub?? Doing a sweep from 150-20 hz will have a little hiccup because of the time difference..

Or im missing something here?

Thanks for the prompt reply!!


----------



## akelu

quality_sound said:


> Since the sub is usually the farthest away from you that will be the reference point for all of the other speakers so it should be fine.


Heres the thing though. MS-8 doesnt use the sub as a reference. It doesnt time align the subwoofer.


----------



## subwoofery

akelu said:


> Correct phase = every posite to positive, negative to negative. I got that.
> 
> And i will have the sub and mid level set correctly and crossovers set at a good spot for a smooth transition..
> 
> But i dont understand how that will get around the speaker distance between my ears from the mid and the sub?? Doing a sweep from 150-20 hz will have a little hiccup because of the time difference..
> 
> Or im missing something here?
> 
> Thanks for the prompt reply!!


I have yet to install my MS-8 but reading reviews, it really has NO problem setting bass upfront ; even with a 80Hz lowpass. 

Kelvin


----------



## quality_sound

akelu said:


> Correct phase = every posite to positive, negative to negative. I got that.


Apparently not. You're talking about polarity. We're talking phase. 



> And i will have the sub and mid level set correctly and crossovers set at a good spot for a smooth transition..
> 
> But i dont understand how that will get around the speaker distance between my ears from the mid and the sub?? Doing a sweep from 150-20 hz will have a little hiccup because of the time difference..
> 
> Or im missing something here?
> 
> Thanks for the prompt reply!!


You're missing something. As I said above, the sub, being the farthest away is the base point. Everything else is delayed to match the sub's arrival time.


----------



## quality_sound

akelu said:


> Heres the thing though. MS-8 doesnt use the sub as a reference. It doesnt time align the subwoofer.


It doesn't NEED to. When it plays the sweeps it knows how far away it is and sets everything else to match.


----------



## akelu

quality_sound said:


> It doesn't NEED to. When it plays the sweeps *it knows how far away it is *and sets everything else to match.


It actually doesnt know "how far away it is"... It doesnt do a sub sweep during the time alignment section.

I get what your saying, it doesnt do time alignment on the sub per say because it time aligns the other speakers, but, it never sweeps the sub to begain with so it doesnt get that reference point to base the other speakers on, Andy has stated this.


----------



## akelu

quality_sound said:


> Apparently not. You're talking about polarity. We're talking phase.



Ah okay, ive tried to look on the net how to adjust the phase between subwoofer and midbass.. I couldnt find much other then flipping the polarity of speakers.

Is that the only way?


----------



## quality_sound

If you don't have T/A on your sub channel, then yes. Reversing the polarity is a 180 degree change in phase. If you need more or less, you're kind of hosed.


----------



## akelu

Man.. i must be missing something here. I found my bass up front MUCH better with loud sub gains when they were time aligned to the front mids.. If the ms-8 cant align the sub to the midbasses then wouldnt everyones subwoofer be out of phase with their mids???? Unless their subwoofer was right next to the mids.. not in the boot. (or their source allows manual time alignment).


----------



## akelu

For example, http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-advanced/105488-ms-8-sub-time-alignment.html


----------



## quality_sound

Hmm, my apologies then. I could swear it T/A'd the sub. If not, don't sweat it too much. People were able to build incredibly good car systems before T/A was even applied to the car so you'll be fine. Try it first, with an open mind (that means don't go into it thinking "How off is it going to sound"), and then decide if you need to make any adjustments.


----------



## akelu

Here's the thing though, I do know how off it will sound, putting a 9db gain on the sub like ms-8 does won't fix the timing of fast hitting sub bass, sure it will mostly fix slow creeping transition type bass.. ( i listen to lots of synthesized electronic music)

An easy fix would be to add a manual sub time delay which applies a delay to all speakers that are already time delayed. I can't see this being hard to implement. maybe in a hidden menu for us "diyers"

Would love for Andy to chime in


----------



## radarcontact

akelu said:


> An easy fix would be to add a manual sub time delay which applies a delay to all speakers that are already time delayed. I can't see this being hard to implement. maybe in a hidden menu for us "diyers"
> 
> Would love for Andy to chime in


I guess the T/A parameters on the ms-8 are NOT manually adjustable after initial setup?


----------



## ecbmxer

So I'm thinking about getting an MS-8 to replace my H100 Imprint processor. How critical is HU pre-out voltage in terms of MS-8 outputs and keeping low gains on your amps (what voltage pre-outs does the MS-8 have)? And then also, would I need to run 6 channels of RCA from my HU to the MS-8 or just 2? If I did run 6 channel, would I be able to adjust sub level from my HU?

Thanks!


----------



## 14642

Think carefully about this whole time aligning of subwoofers. It isn't necessary.

If you set time alignment manually with another processor, you measure from the speakers to the listening position. The sub is farthest away--let's say it's 5 feet away. Then, measure from the next one--probably the passenger mid in the bottom of the door, which is probably 4 feet away. The difference in the distance is 1 foot. So, you delay everything but the sub by one foot. 

Now, let's say that your crossover between your sub and your front speakers is 60Hz. A 60Hz wavelength is approximately 20 feet long. One wavelength is also 360 degrees. 1/20 of 360 is 18. The phase shift at the crossover frequency (which is all that matters) is 18 degrees. That doesn't contribute any cancellation nor does it affect the placement of bass sounds or the illusion of bass up front. 

Getting bass up front is simply about making sure that polarity of the sub is correct and the right EQ. You can simply swap the speaker wires and recalibrate with the microphone to determine which of these you prefer.


----------



## 14642

instalher said:


> y corded rca output off channel 8 sorry my bad.. there is zero output from the system except through the subs.. no sound otherwise. also the unit gives me the 3 oks. system set at -20. also i have zero output. not a whisper... head unit is off the front speakers from the bmw. I cut the wire and ran them to the m8. and ran new speaker wire to its output stage. i also wired them out of phase, in phase, upside down right side up, it makes no difference. as far as tech support goes.. i spoke with head office they told me one thing. then i spoke direct with Gary and he told me a totally different way, then Andy chimed in on here and gave me another way to due it. now i have done it the way it should be done but to no avail and no one will return my messages. having a learning disability means that i have to work 2xs as hard to get 1/2 the results but that doesnt mean you have to give up on me jbl.


Check your PM please.


----------



## AndyInOC

ecbmxer said:


> So I'm thinking about getting an MS-8 to replace my H100 Imprint processor. How critical is HU pre-out voltage in terms of MS-8 outputs and keeping low gains on your amps (what voltage pre-outs does the MS-8 have)? And then also, would I need to run 6 channels of RCA from my HU to the MS-8 or just 2? If I did run 6 channel, would I be able to adjust sub level from my HU?
> 
> Thanks!


Pre-out voltage of the head is not overly important. Manufacturers can claim what they want and most of them will hit the stated pre-out voltage but not until absolute max volume on the head. 

Been said a million times, set your amps inputs for about 2v, I believe I read that the output voltage of the ms8 is unity up to 2.8v, run ONE set of rca's from your head to your ms8 and no you will not have sub control on the head.


----------



## JJAZ

instalher said:


> y corded rca output off channel 8 sorry my bad.. there is zero output from the system except through the subs.. no sound otherwise. also the unit gives me the 3 oks. system set at -20. also i have zero output. not a whisper... head unit is off the front speakers from the bmw. I cut the wire and ran them to the m8. and ran new speaker wire to its output stage. i also wired them out of phase, in phase, upside down right side up, it makes no difference. as far as tech support goes.. i spoke with head office they told me one thing. then i spoke direct with Gary and he told me a totally different way, then Andy chimed in on here and gave me another way to due it. now i have done it the way it should be done but to no avail and no one will return my messages. having a learning disability means that i have to work 2xs as hard to get 1/2 the results but that doesnt mean you have to give up on me jbl.


This may sound stupid, but... To me it sounds like you have connected your speakers to the MS-8 high-level INPUTS, and not to the speaker OUTPUTS.

That would make the system all quite, no hiss, no nothing.


----------



## Lanson

JJAZ said:


> This may sound stupid, but... To me it sounds like you have connected your speakers to the MS-8 high-level INPUTS, and not to the speaker OUTPUTS.
> 
> That would make the system all quite, no hiss, no nothing.



You are saying he's using the RCA's and speaker levels at the same time on input?


----------



## kaigoss69

JJAZ said:


> This may sound stupid, but... To me it sounds like you have connected your speakers to the MS-8 high-level INPUTS, and not to the speaker OUTPUTS.
> 
> That would make the system all quite, no hiss, no nothing.


He is using hi-level inputs and gets OK OK OK, so he could not have done that...unless he used the RCAs.


----------



## Lanson

kaigoss69 said:


> He is using hi-level inputs and gets OK OK OK, so he could not have done that...unless he used the RCAs.



Right, it is possible to hook up both though. It wont' work of course, but I could see it being possible.

RCA's coming into the unit would get the OK x3, but then trying to output would result in dead silence

Don't the input and output connector interchange? I never bothered to look.


----------



## instalher

i thought of the inputs and outputs being wrong as well.. so the plug with all white and grey colored wires has only two speaker leads going to it.. the decks left and the decks rights. all the other leads are ties up.. now the other plug has the clear jackets on the wires and all of them are being used except channel 8, which is tied off. now on the rcas output side of the ms-8 i have pluged in an rca and ran that to a mtx amp. THIS WORKS! but its the only sound i get on my 2006 -325i


----------



## kaigoss69

instalher said:


> i thought of the inputs and outputs being wrong as well.. so the plug with all white and grey colored wires has only two speaker leads going to it.. the decks left and the decks rights. all the other leads are ties up.. now the other plug has the clear jackets on the wires and all of them are being used except channel 8, which is tied off. now on the rcas output side of the ms-8 i have pluged in an rca and ran that to a mtx amp. THIS WORKS! but its the only sound i get on my 2006 -325i


Try connecting the sub amp's RCA to some of the other RCA outputs, and turn off the amp's low-pass filter. Any music coming from the sub???


----------



## Lanson

Right, and double-check that output connector, make sure it is fully clicked in


----------



## mikesz

I'm having some trouble getting my MS-8 setup properly. Below are some RTA captures using the quick sweep function in TrueRTA. With processing on the system sounds like a clock radio with a subwoffer. Processing off the music sounds much fuller and natural, but still has issues. I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong here. 

The front L/R 3-way is setup active 2 way in the MS-8 with a 500hz 24DB Slope. Mid and tweeter are passive at 3500 HZ 24 DB Slope. Truck is a '96 Chevrolet C1500. 
Midbass - Peerless XLS 8 in bottom of doors
Mid - Dayton RS-52 halfway up the doors in the stock tweeter location
Tweeter - Dayton ND20 halfway up the A Pillars

Defeat:








EQ on Calibrated at -20 DB:








EQ on Calibrated at -30 DB:








EQ on Calibrated at -40 DB:








EQ on Calibrated at -50 DB:








EQ on Calibrated at -60 DB:









Mike


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

^isn't that the new mt. everest mode people have been raving about?


----------



## Sirrus

mikesz said:


> I'm having some trouble getting my MS-8 setup properly. Below are some RTA captures using the quick sweep function in TrueRTA. With processing on the system sounds like a clock radio with a subwoffer. Processing off the music sounds much fuller and natural, but still has issues. I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong here.
> 
> The front L/R 3-way is setup active 2 way in the MS-8 with a 500hz 24DB Slope. Mid and tweeter are passive at 3500 HZ 24 DB Slope. Truck is a '96 Chevrolet C1500.
> Midbass - Peerless XLS 8 in bottom of doors
> Mid - Dayton RS-52 halfway up the doors in the stock tweeter location
> Tweeter - Dayton ND20 halfway up the A Pillars
> 
> Mike


Where did you plug in your computer's output to run the sweeps? Do you get the same results using the AUX input on the MS-8?

Also, what are you using to measure?


----------



## mikesz

Sirrus said:


> Where did you plug in your computer's output to run the sweeps? Do you get the same results using the AUX input on the MS-8?
> 
> Also, what are you using to measure?


I bought an M-Audio something or other for the soundcard because I was having noise floor issues on the RTA side with the built in sound on the laptop I have. 

The M-Audio is connected to the Aux in on my Kenwood X995 headunit. 
The M-Audio supplies 48V phantom power directly. The Behringer ECM8000 is plugged directly into that. I haven't tried the Aux in, don't think that's the problem. I'll try it for fun tonight I guess.

Mike


----------



## 14642

mikesz said:


> I'm having some trouble getting my MS-8 setup properly. Below are some RTA captures using the quick sweep function in TrueRTA. With processing on the system sounds like a clock radio with a subwoffer. Processing off the music sounds much fuller and natural, but still has issues. I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong here.
> 
> The front L/R 3-way is setup active 2 way in the MS-8 with a 500hz 24DB Slope. Mid and tweeter are passive at 3500 HZ 24 DB Slope. Truck is a '96 Chevrolet C1500.
> Midbass - Peerless XLS 8 in bottom of doors
> Mid - Dayton RS-52 halfway up the doors in the stock tweeter location
> Tweeter - Dayton ND20 halfway up the A Pillars
> 
> Defeat:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EQ on Calibrated at -20 DB:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EQ on Calibrated at -30 DB:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EQ on Calibrated at -40 DB:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EQ on Calibrated at -50 DB:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EQ on Calibrated at -60 DB:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mike


that is the Mt. Everest mode. There are a few things that will improve this from the start and will probably make the response easier for MS-8 to deal with. Before I go into all of those suggestions, are you using a subwoofer and are you using additional amplifiers to drive the rest of the speakers or is MS-8 providing the power?


----------



## akelu

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Think carefully about this whole time aligning of subwoofers. It isn't necessary.
> 
> If you set time alignment manually with another processor, you measure from the speakers to the listening position. The sub is farthest away--let's say it's 5 feet away. Then, measure from the next one--probably the passenger mid in the bottom of the door, which is probably 4 feet away. The difference in the distance is 1 foot. So, you delay everything but the sub by one foot.
> 
> Now, let's say that your crossover between your sub and your front speakers is 60Hz. A 60Hz wavelength is approximately 20 feet long. One wavelength is also 360 degrees. 1/20 of 360 is 18. The phase shift at the crossover frequency (which is all that matters) is 18 degrees. That doesn't contribute any cancellation nor does it affect the placement of bass sounds or the illusion of bass up front.
> 
> Getting bass up front is simply about making sure that polarity of the sub is correct and the right EQ. You can simply swap the speaker wires and recalibrate with the microphone to determine which of these you prefer.



Lets say you dont have rears.. ? Doesnt that increase the phase shift a whole lot more?


----------



## mikesz

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> that is the Mt. Everest mode. There are a few things that will improve this from the start and will probably make the response easier for MS-8 to deal with. Before I go into all of those suggestions, are you using a subwoofer and are you using additional amplifiers to drive the rest of the speakers or is MS-8 providing the power?


There is no sub though I might add one at some point. 

Front
20hz 24db Lowpass
Channel 1/2 front low 150W per to Peerless SLS 8"
500hz 24db highpass
Channel 3/4 front high 75W per to mid/tweet

Center
80hz 24db Lowpass
Channel 5 ctr low 150W to Dayton RS180 7"
500hz 24db highpass
Channel 6 ctr high 75W to mid/tweet

Sides
Sides eventually on 7/8 75W per when I get what I've got figured out. For now 7/8 are currently not used in the config. They are some Kenwood 4"x6" coax.

Amps are JL audio 450/4 running 3 channel to the left right center midbass. JL audio 300/4 utilizing 3 of the 4 channels for left right center mid/tweet. 

Mid/tweet for left right center consistis of a Dayton ND20 3/4" dome tweeter and a Dayton RS52 2" dome mid. Passive crossover at 3500hz 24DB based on the design here. Lowpass portion of the mid crossover removed. There is a 1.5 ohm resistor on the tweeters to bring them down a little.

For the sweeps above logic 7 was disabled to take the center out. The center was still in the config though and was still being calibrated. Just realized typing this that I should remove the center from the config to completely eliminate it as an issue, will do that tonight and retest. 

Mike


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## 14642

OK. 

First, reverse the polarity of the tweeters. Then, make the following modifications to the passive crossover:

For the tweeters, use only C0, L1 and C3. For the mids, eliminate C7 (midrange high pass) and eliminate the impedance notch filter (L13, R14 and C12). This is designed to minimize the impedance at the dome's resonance so that C7 can do its job. You're not using C7 because you're using MS-8's crossover. That could be contributing to the 1k problem by reducing the system impedance at the mid's resonance. In any case, the impedance notch isn't necessary in your system. 

Continue calibrating at -40. That and the above mods should smooth out the midrange and high frequencies. 

The midbass to midrange transition also needs work, but It's difficult for me to tell exactly what's going on. It appears that the mids may not like 500Hz. Try raising the crossover to 800 and maybe using a 2nd or 3rd order slope instead of 4th. 


Try the first steps above and let's see if there's an improvement. Then, we can work on the 100Hz problem.


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## Lanson

Mt. Everest Mode! 

LMAO!


----------



## mikesz

The passives are installed exactly as you describe already except the tweeter R4 is changed to 1.5 ohm and the mid R6 is eliminated. I will try the other things you suggested and remove the center from the config tonight and retest.

Based on some reading on this site I'm not sure the Peerless SLS 8"  can work at 800hz. I do have some Dayton RS225's that I can put back in which should have no problem, definetly going to need a sub with those eventually. One step at a time though.

Below is a FR plot on the RS52 from the Zaph Audio site. 









So the tests I will run in this order are:
1- Reverse tweeter polarity
2- Raise 500hz cross to 800hz and play with the slopes
3- Replace Peerless SLS 8 with Dayton RS225

Please let me know if there is anything else you'd like to see. 
Thanks for the help!

Mike


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## Lanson

FYI any sub will do just about. I have an old trusty Orion XTR3 Pro running 4ohm right off the MS8, sounds great at low to moderate volume. Moderate being louder than the stock Flex system.


----------



## quality_sound

akelu said:


> Lets say you dont have rears.. ? Doesnt that increase the phase shift a whole lot more?


No. Phase is relative. If you have a single driver there is no such thing as phase.


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## 14642

If you have rears, then the difference in distance between the sub and the baseline high frequency speaker for TA may be even smaller-if the rear speakers are in the package tray of a sedan, for example. 

Then, not only does it not matter...it REALLY doesn't matter even more...evennnnn...


----------



## 14642

mikesz said:


> The passives are installed exactly as you describe already except the tweeter R4 is changed to 1.5 ohm and the mid R6 is eliminated. I will try the other things you suggested and remove the center from the config tonight and retest.
> 
> Based on some reading on this site I'm not sure the Peerless SLS 8" can work at 800hz. I do have some Dayton RS225's that I can put back in which should have no problem, definetly going to need a sub with those eventually. One step at a time though.
> 
> Below is a FR plot on the RS52 from the Zaph Audio site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So the tests I will run in this order are:
> 1- Reverse tweeter polarity
> 2- Raise 500hz cross to 800hz and play with the slopes
> 3- Replace Peerless SLS 8 with Dayton RS225
> 
> Please let me know if there is anything else you'd like to see.
> Thanks for the help!
> 
> Mike


those 52s are midrange drivers--not midbass. resonance is 350HZ!


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## mikesz

I moved the mic alittle to better represent head position and removed the center from the config.

Baseline defeat, no other changes. 









Baseline EQ, no other changes









Tweeter reverse phase defeat









Tweeter reverse phase active









Mike


----------



## mikesz

Raised the midbass crossover frequency to 800, still 24db

Defeat









Active


----------



## mikesz

800hz midbass to mid frequency at 18db/octave
Also moved the tweeters to the base of the A pillar aimed toward the centerline of the truck between the headrests. 

Defeat









Active


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## Sirrus

If you have an SPL meter, use it to do SPL calibration on TrueRTA, then find the MS-8 volume level where your calibration sweeps just reach 85 db (enable peak hold and start recording before starting the sweeps). Try running your sweeps there and see if that's any better.

That dip at 3k in your "defeat" graphs looks troubling as well. I suppose that's why you changed the tweeter polarity, but it doesn't look like it helped much. :/ I'd probably put it back, but I'll defer to Andy (of course).


----------



## mikesz

Lowered midbass gain

Defeat








Active


----------



## mikesz

Sirrus said:


> If you have an SPL meter, use it to do SPL calibration on TrueRTA, then find the MS-8 volume level where your calibration sweeps just reach 85 db (enable peak hold and start recording before starting the sweeps). Try running your sweeps there and see if that's any better.
> 
> That dip at 3k in your "defeat" graphs looks troubling as well. I suppose that's why you changed the tweeter polarity, but it doesn't look like it helped much. :/ I'd probably put it back, but I'll defer to Andy (of course).


I don't have an SPL meter, something else to buy I guess. The tweeters are a good distance away from the mids. As I understand it this dosen't help me much. I'll keep trying different tweeter positions hoping for some magic to happen unless someone has a better idea. I wish there was a place to get the mids higher but there just isn't without cutting big holes. 

Thanks for the help!
Mike


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## mikesz

Here is a picture of my speaker locations.


----------



## chad

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> For the tweeters, use only C0, L1 and C3. For the mids, eliminate C7 (midrange high pass) and eliminate the impedance notch filter (L13, R14 and C12). This is designed to minimize the impedance at the dome's resonance so that C7 can do its job. You're not using C7 because you're using MS-8's crossover. That could be contributing to the 1k problem by reducing the system impedance at the mid's resonance. In any case, the impedance notch isn't necessary in your system.
> 
> Continue calibrating at -40. That and the above mods should smooth out the midrange and high frequencies.


So now the "easy MS8" results in modding passive crossovers? That's ********.

How about telling us how to mod the filters by re-designing the the firmware? Kinda like.. without passive crossovers..... A "pro mode" like the Harman pro stuff  AKA BSS, DBX, Oh Yeah.

Some of us, if not many, don't play with that ********.

I've played Harman "autotune game" for a long time, and though I give it a chance, it's not real.

Give us the real thing.


----------



## mikesz

chad said:


> So now the "easy MS8" results in modding passive crossovers? That's ********.
> 
> How about letting us mod the filters by re-designing the the firmware? Kinda like.. without passive crossovers..... A "pro mode" like the Harman pro stuff  AKA BSS, DBX, Oh Yeah.


The modding of passive crossovers is my fault. It's not JBL's, Andy's, or the MS-8's fault. The crossovers I used were originally part of a 3-way system for home use, not a car audio specific design. I'm only using the mid and tweeter portion of the design, so the crossovers needed to be modified to remove the mid low pass so they could be used as a 2-way. I wanted a 2" dome mid to fit in a specific location in my truck and needed it to be passive with a tweeter due to channel qty limitations and this is what I could find. Modification is part of the deal when you go down paths like this, this is a DIY forum after all. 

Most people in Andy's position would throw their hands up and say modified home speaker designs is not a supported application and claim that's the source of all my issues. It's easier and safer because it reduces the possibility of posts like yours from people who don't understand. That Andy didn't say that says allot to me about his dedication to DIY car audio and his character. That he took the time to review the design in such detail to give support on modifying the crossovers of a non standard application says even more.

To create a black box which automatically creates great sound quality in such a subjective industry in the horrible environment which is car audio is not an easy task, not to mention bringing such a thing to market. We should consider ourselves lucky to have it at such a price, and even luckier to have one of the people responsible for developing it here supporting us.

Mike


----------



## chad

Regardless, make a soccermom mode, and a pro mode. DBX learned it early on with the driverack PA... that still blew horns upon a power failure.

The "autotune" has resulted in more used MS-8's than you can imagine. I'm watching this in other places.

Give advanced users a pro mode.

I've been a Die-hard JBL Professional user now for 20 years, soon to be 19  Got a set of 4412's, properly hung, in my shop now screaming at me  No sub.

I can't watch this go down like this, I have seen too much.


----------



## CraigE

mikesz said:


> I moved the mic alittle to better represent head position and removed the center from the config.


Are the measurements you show from a SINGLE stationary mic position ?
I believe that you said you were measuring sweeps.


Does it matter that the measuring units are dBu and not dB SPL ?


----------



## akelu

Would it be possible to use the alpine imprint module to split the signal into front and sub, apply the delay to the front signals for time aligning the sub and then input both of those rca's into the MS-8 and have the ms-8 combine them? I know its not "reallyyy" necessary but this has bugged me before and its the reason i looked into time alignment. In my setup it seems necesary (fronts + sub)


----------



## JJAZ

I do not think your 2-5kHz problem is the tweeter phase.

You are measuring left & right channel at the same time, right? I think what you see is a suckout caused by the path length difference between the two midranges, when RTA'ing in defeat mode.

That also explains why the MS-8 can take care of it. If it was a tweeter-to-midrange phase problem the MS-8 would not be able to fill in such a huge gap.

An interesting experiment would be: Running just the tweeters or just the midranges, and do an RTA.




mikesz said:


> 800hz midbass to mid frequency at 18db/octave
> Also moved the tweeters to the base of the A pillar aimed toward the centerline of the truck between the headrests.
> 
> Defeat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Active


----------



## mikesz

JJAZ said:


> I do not think your 2-5kHz problem is the tweeter phase.
> 
> You are measuring left & right channel at the same time, right? I think what you see is a suckout caused by the path length difference between the two midranges, when RTA'ing in defeat mode.
> 
> That also explains why the MS-8 can take care of it. If it was a tweeter-to-midrange phase problem the MS-8 would not be able to fill in such a huge gap.
> 
> An interesting experiment would be: Running just the tweeters or just the midranges, and do an RTA.


Last night I set the balance full right and it was still there, might have been less severe though, i'll have to retest. I tried moving tweeter down to the midrange and the tweeter was down around 3db, but the dip was gone. I'll try measuring just tweeters and just mids to see what happens. 

I used to have a 2-way with the tweeters where the mids are now and the stage was much too low. It was also to the right because of the very off axis location of the driver midbass. Right or wrong this is the main reason I'm where I'm at now. 

Mike


----------



## 14642

chad said:


> So now the "easy MS8" results in modding passive crossovers? That's ********.
> 
> How about telling us how to mod the filters by re-designing the the firmware? Kinda like.. without passive crossovers..... A "pro mode" like the Harman pro stuff  AKA BSS, DBX, Oh Yeah.
> 
> Some of us, if not many, don't play with that ********.
> 
> I've played Harman "autotune game" for a long time, and though I give it a chance, it's not real.
> 
> Give us the real thing.


I'm a little surprised by this. As Mike explained, his passive crossover was based on a passive network designed for a pair of home audio speakers with the drivers mounted on a flat baffle and measured on axis only. Nice response on that website...but Mike's truck is NOT a pair of three-way home speakers with the drivers mounted on a flat baffle. My suggestion for modding his crossover was simply to remove the components that are unnecessary for his application. 

In addition, building the right passive network requires more test gear and more expertise than many DIYers have. Mike started with a good suggestion and, from my perspective, is in the middle of an experiment and a learning process. My suggestions were meant to help and it appears that Mike found them helpful. Hopefully we'll get his truck sounding good.

MS-8 doesn't always make every system sound great and requires a baseline system performance to do its thing. Once we get Mike's system to that baseline, I'm pretty confident that MS-8 will be fine in his system.

MS-8 was designed primarily to be integrated easily in factory systems for people who are reluctant to rip out the entire system and replace it with a trunk full of amplifiers and a mix of speakers. In most of those systems, MS-8 works great an will support 48 different speaker configurations. There are good speaker locations and bad ones. We've chosen to optimze MS-8 for the majority of good speaker locations. It uses an algorithm to do its work. That means it operates using a system of rules--think multiple choice questions and answers. Systems that fall outside of those rules cannot completely optmized. In many cases, a little tuning with the 31-band EQ and a change of crossover point and driver polarity improves the performance. 

The "Pro Mode" we've chosen to include in MS-8 is a 31-band graphic EQ and the ability to set nearly any crossover point with a choice of 4 different slopes. 

I've been doing car audio for 25 years as an installer, retail manager, product trainer, and product developer. I've used nearly every DSP that's ever been sold in this category and until recently ALL included only "PRO" mode or an autotune that ALWAYS fell short of the mark. Pro-Mode DSPs in aftermarket car audio are a business failure because there aren't enough trainers on Earth to teach everyone how to EQ a car. Many retail installers have no appetite for learning basic acoustics and would prefer to make fiberglass panels. There aren't enough motivational trainers on Earth to change that perspective. In order to have a business success, we have to make products that can reduce the need for technical expertise at retail shops, and that's what we've tried to do. 

DIY Mobile is a collection of people with widely varying objectives. Some come here to read about the experiences of qualified enthusiasts in order to make a better-informed purchase decision. Some enthusiasts and experimenters come here to learn and some to teach. I've noticed over the years that I've been here, that very few industry people in positions similar to mine are willing to wade through the BS and vitrol that's spouted by a few amrchair acousticians who hang out here in order to get to the vast majority of forum members whose objectves aren't simply to be abusive. This is confirmed by many conversations I've had with peers. 

Why am I here? Because I'm also an armchair acoustician with years of experience in this category and access to real acousticians who are often willing to answer my questions. I come here to learn and to help and to pass on what I can in the interest of making the job of experimenting easier, more informative and ultimately more successful for the folks who use this forum as a library. I also come here to learn about how enthusiasts use products so I can balance those needs with the needs of non-enthusiast consumers when we develop products. 

Audio enthusiasts are, by nature, never satisfied. Experimenters are, by nature, given to continuous experimentation. While I'm sure that some used MS-8s for sale are due to system incompatibility or a reliance on MS-8 to do something that it doesn't do well enough, I'd bet that some of them are the results of experiments that have run their course for forum members who have moved on to the next system. In any case, I get plenty of emails indicating that MS-8 has made people happy and some that are the result of problems in implementing the product. I'm thankful for all of those emails, including the problems, because I can't help if I don't know that my help is needed.


----------



## Lanson

Is the mic calibrated??


----------



## mikesz

fourthmeal said:


> Is the mic calibrated??


No. I've read that the mic I'm using is flat within a db or two and the calibration file fixes only those small changes. I'll start worrying about it when my system gets anywhere close to within a db or two of flat. Also I can hear what the RTA shows.

Edit: Atleast that's my thinking anyway, been wrong before. 

Mike


----------



## 14642

fourthmeal said:


> Is the mic calibrated??


Mike's mic or MS-8's mic? Ms-8's mic is calibrated and there's a calibration curve in the firmware.


----------



## 14642

mikesz said:


> No. I've read that the mic I'm using is flat within a db or two and the calibration file fixes only those small changes. I'll start worrying about it when my system gets anywhere close to within a db or two of flat. Also I can hear what the RTA shows.
> 
> Edit: Atleast that's my thinking anyway, been wrong before.
> 
> Mike


The mic calibraton isn't the issue. There's probably a small bump at high frequencies followed by a sall attenuation. maybe a bit of attenuation at low frequencies too. No big deal. 

It may be helpful, especially for the dip at 3k to move the mic around slowly while you make measurements. If the dip goes away as you move the mic, then it's far lss audible than wh the RTA shows and there's no need to fix it. This is why MS-8 uses a spatial average. The same could be true at any frequency near 1kHz or above.


----------



## acidbass303

Just a little question in my mind
I have a sedan with rears connected for the L7, the rears are installed om the rear parcel shelf with the underside of the shelf and the speaker cones of the rears in direct communication with the trunk air space. The sub is in the trunk. Is it better to seal off the rear speakers from the rest of the trunk by building some sealed enclosures below them so they are isolated and there is no interaction between the speakers' cones and the subwoofer or should they be left as is and the ms8 will take care of it? Just a thought...
Thanks.


----------



## mikesz

CraigE said:


> Are the measurements you show from a SINGLE stationary mic position ?



Yes, single position, but I will be trying multiple positions tonight to see what's going on.



CraigE said:


> I believe that you said you were measuring sweeps.


All the posted measurements have been sweeps.




CraigE said:


> Does it matter that the measuring units are dBu and not dB SPL ?


No. It just changes the scale. Below are two curves, one in dbu and one in db spl of my office ambient noise measured with the laptop mic. 










Mike


----------



## CraigE

mikesz said:


> Yes, single position, but I will be trying multiple positions tonight to see what's going on.
> 
> Mike


I'm sure you will see a big difference with multiple mic positions.
I think multiple positions can be averaged with True RTA to give you a spatial average.
This is what MS-8 does, and gives you six mic positions at each seat location.
Also, stereo pink noise will work by moving the mic around the ear/head area at the seating position, using a long or inf. average with True RTA.

Craig


----------



## instalher

ok finally got some good answers today as to what might be the problem with my ms-8. the output section is pooched.. go figure. went down to the shop where i bought it, they gave me another one put it in, as per Andys specs and voila. music.. now it sounds terrible with logic 7 on and the processor and great without it on so i will work on that tonight to see whats going on.. sounds like a phase issue. I will keep you up-to-date. Andy a pleasure talking with you. Nice to talk with someone my age who has been doing this as long as i have.


----------



## mikesz

So I measured the right side midrange and tweeter independently and the null is still there. I've disconnected the questionable passives for now and run tweeter, mid, and woofer off the MS-8 all active to give this setup the best shot at working. Yay for more amplifiers. Didn't get a chance to measure it yet, will post something this evening. 

Mike


----------



## onebadmonte

mikesz said:


> So I measured the right side midrange and tweeter independently and the null is still there. I've disconnected the questionable passives for now and run tweeter, mid, and woofer off the MS-8 all active to give this setup the best shot at working. Yay for more amplifiers. Didn't get a chance to measure it yet, will post something this evening.
> 
> Mike


Dang bro, wish I could help, but I'm all thumbs at this stuff. I'm rooting for you though, bummed the passives are out. I hope you get it figured out, so I can give it a try. I've always wanted to do a dome mid setup, and from pricing everything, it looks like a cheap way in the door. I'm not sure if you've tried, but from the looks of Zaph's x-over diagram the dome mid is out of phase. I read a bit back Andy W mentioned putting the tweeter in phase. Have you tried various phase configurations? Also have you though about putting the tweeter and dome mid closer together, I'm thinking millimeters within each other. Hope this helps.


----------



## JJAZ

From those two measurements, it looks to me like the passive filter is not doing a good job. The two drivers do not really reach is other, so the null is not a phase issue but more simply because neither of the drivers have output in the crossover region.



mikesz said:


> So I measured the right side midrange and tweeter independently and the null is still there. I've disconnected the questionable passives for now and run tweeter, mid, and woofer off the MS-8 all active to give this setup the best shot at working. Yay for more amplifiers. Didn't get a chance to measure it yet, will post something this evening.
> 
> Mike


----------



## Sirrus

Try moving your crossover point to 5 kHz 24db.


----------



## mikesz

After connecting everything active I set the crossover points 500 and 3500 24db and set gains by RTA and did a few calibrations then went for a ride to listen. Got frustrated, turned off all processing, and set gains by ear in the grocery store parking lot. Below is what I ended up with. 










And here it is what MS-8 did with that after calibration










Active on still has that nasal sound to me which can be seen in the graph. The thing I can't see in the graph is why the midbass runs out of excursion MUCH MUCH faster with processing on. I expected to see it trying to boost the lowest octaves but I don't. Not sure what's going on there. 

EDIT: I forgot I cut 63 and 80 hz on the way to work trying to troubleshoot this... I can see it now. You can too in the graphs I'm about to post... When looking at the above graphs, note 63 and 80 is cut by 10db in the eq. Sorry bout that...

AND, troubleshooting a bad RCA this morning I hooked the tweeters up left to right. So I guess what's above is kind of useless now. 

Next stop 700hz mid and 5000 hz tweeter crossover points. 

Mike


----------



## Sirrus

Maybe it's not your speaker running out of excursion, but the MS-8 hitting it's max gain. That would indicate that the MS-8 is boosting as high as it can, which in turn implies that your calibration sweeps are too quiet.

On the other hand, I'm sure I could think of a reason that this indicates your sweeps are too loud as well. Maybe due to clipping the microphones?

3500 sure looks better than 2500 did, I'm curious to see how those mids sound up to 5000.


----------



## mikesz

700 5000 defeat









Active









Mike


----------



## mikesz

And here that is after playing with the EQ settings










Mike


----------



## mikesz

And here is the eq settings. Something still seems wrong. Off to listen.


----------



## CraigE

Looking better.
Are these single mic positions, or averages of multiple mic positions ?


----------



## blownrunner

CraigE said:


> I'm sure you will see a big difference with multiple mic positions.
> I think multiple positions can be averaged with True RTA to give you a spatial average.
> This is what MS-8 does, and gives you six mic positions at each seat location.
> Also, stereo pink noise will work by moving the mic around the ear/head area at the seating position, using a long or inf. average with True RTA.
> 
> Craig


What I do when calibrating with the mic: when looking at the right and left mirrors, try not to move your eyes, only your neck. I really feel my neck muscles stretch when I do this. Also, keep your chin up as your chin will naturally want to slope down to your chest when you look at the mirrors. I believe this will help eliminate the rainbow effect on the dash. Also of importance was the crossover freq between the midbass and the mids/highs on the front stage. I kept changing this crossover point, calibrating, then saving the results in different memories and later compared until I found the frequency that worked optimally. It really made a difference.

At SBN, talking to some of the people using the MS-8, they found that they got positive results when they turned the volume down on the unit during calibration to 'make it work a little harder'.


----------



## Lanson

blownrunner said:


> What I do when calibrating with the mic: when looking at the right and left mirrors, try not to move your eyes, only your neck. I really feel my neck muscles stretch when I do this. Also, keep your chin up as your chin will naturally want to slope down to your chest when you look at the mirrors. I believe this will help eliminate the rainbow effect on the dash. Also of importance was the crossover freq between the midbass and the mids/highs on the front stage. I kept changing this crossover point, calibrating, then saving the results in different memories and later compared until I found the frequency that worked optimally. It really made a difference.
> 
> At SBN, talking to some of the people using the MS-8, they found that they got positive results when they turned the volume down on the unit during calibration to 'make it work a little harder'.


Awesome, some of these things I did on my own but it is good to hear the rest. I will add, make sure that your environment is extremely quiet. Planes flying overhead, heavy traffic, kids yelling...all NO-GO. Silent, no A/C (gotta tough it out here in Vegas), no engine running, just quiet as possible.


----------



## CraigE

blownrunner said:


> I kept changing this crossover point, calibrating, then saving the results in different memories and later compared until I found the frequency that worked optimally. It really made a difference.


Ummm, you can not save different crossover points or slopes into memory of the MS-8.
Maybe you are talking about saving your RTA measurements onto your computer. 


Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer 
"The correction filters are huge and there's just no more memory left to save a bunch of different correction filters."


----------



## 14642

fourthmeal said:


> Awesome, some of these things I did on my own but it is good to hear the rest. I will add, make sure that your environment is extremely quiet. Planes flying overhead, heavy traffic, kids yelling...all NO-GO. Silent, no A/C (gotta tough it out here in Vegas), no engine running, just quiet as possible.


 
Actually, because these are sweeps, they're not all that sensitive to extraneous noise, so long as it isn't some steady state noise that's really loud. Steady state noise, will affect it--loud AC, passing trains, someone testing a jet engine in the garage next to you--all of thosr things will affetc the measurement.


----------



## kaigoss69

blownrunner said:


> What I do when calibrating with the mic: when looking at the right and left mirrors, try not to move your eyes, only your neck. I really feel my neck muscles stretch when I do this. Also, keep your chin up as your chin will naturally want to slope down to your chest when you look at the mirrors. I believe this will help eliminate the rainbow effect on the dash.


I was actually wondering about that the other day. Will try tomorrow. If this is true, this would be an important detail to be missing from the operation manual.



> Also of importance was the crossover freq between the midbass and the mids/highs on the front stage. I kept changing this crossover point, calibrating, then saving the results in different memories and later compared until I found the frequency that worked optimally. It really made a difference.


So are you saying that when you re-calibrate, and it says all settings will be lost, it will actually save the previous configuration with x-over settings if you saved it under "favorites"???


----------



## akelu

Andy - What rears would you suggest to be powered off the internal amp?

I used to have stock 6x9's but i got rid of them when i put the soundsystem in.

I'm thinking small high sensitivity full range drivers?

What about these? - high sensitivy, 2ohm for more power..
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_12263_JBL-P6462.html


----------



## subwoofery

akelu said:


> Andy - What rears would you suggest to be powered off the internal amp?
> 
> I used to have stock 6x9's but i got rid of them when i put the soundsystem in.
> 
> I'm thinking small high sensitivity full range drivers?
> 
> What about these? - high sensitivy, 2ohm for more power..
> JBL P6462 4" x 6" 2-way Power Series Plate Speakers


A bit expensive but should work... 

Kelvin


----------



## akelu

Yeah im not going to pay that much for them  I was thinking that these are better quality over the oval shaped speakers because round has better reproduction, and I don't need the extra cone area for bass because I'm crossing it over at 100hz


----------



## kaigoss69

Some people have reported a lack of midbass when using a trunk sub. This has been an issue especially in BMWs with the midbass drivers under the seats. If you calibrate without a sub, and let the woofers play all the way down, the midbass is great, but as soon as you add the sub into the mix, the midbass just disappears. It can be helped with the EQ, but not to the level of impact of the "no sub" calibration, not even close.

After having read about the lack of sub T/A recently, and Andy's explanation that it really is not that important, I had an idea. What if I calibrated without the sub, and then added it back in post calibration, using the crossovers in my amp? So I went out this morning for this little experiment. I set the subsonic at 20Hz on the underseat 8" woofers and calibrated without a sub. I then split the signal at the 4-ch amp and high-passed the underseats at 50Hz 24dB/oct and low-passed the sub at 50Hz, 12db/Oct.

The result? - Fantastic midbass and stellar subbass, the best of both worlds!


----------



## akelu

I think if that happens you just need to turn the gain on the sub down a bit while your tuning then raise it back up after.. thats what ive read at least


----------



## dlheman

I just finished installing MS8 to my friend's Mitsubishi Galant VR4, and this is the first time ever I heard the sound of stock system with MS8. In short it works beautifully.

MS8 powered everything; front two-way passive, rear door speakers (just wooffer), parcel shelf speakers (coaxials I think) and parcel shelf subwoofer. After a couple of try, I finalised the tune as follows:

Sub/Front - 90hz / 12db
Sides - 120hz / 24db
Rear - 100hz / 24db

Calibration volume -20.0db.

The result is amazing. Is even more amazing considering everything is stock in stock locations, the doors/parcel shelf are not treated with deadening/sound barrier, and the plastic covers on the door skin were torned badly! 

What's next is a gradual upgrade so each step of the way we can experience the difference with each upgrades.

The first thing I am going to do next is to soundproof the doors/parcel shelf, and later once he is ready his JBL GT5-650C and JBL GTO 6.5" coaxial will be fitted to front doors and parcel shelf respectively. Hopefully he source another GTO 6.5" coaxial for his rear door so every speakers are upgraded. And if he wants more, I can make use of his old school 1990s sony 2 channel amp to power the front speakers.

I love MS8!


----------



## subwoofery

kaigoss69 said:


> Some people have reported a lack of midbass when using a trunk sub. This has been an issue especially in BMWs with the midbass drivers under the seats. If you calibrate without a sub, and let the woofers play all the way down, the midbass is great, but as soon as you add the sub into the mix, the midbass just disappears. It can be helped with the EQ, but not to the level of impact of the "no sub" calibration, not even close.
> 
> After having read about the lack of sub T/A recently, and Andy's explanation that it really is not that important, I had an idea. What if I calibrated without the sub, and then added it back in post calibration, using the crossovers in my amp? So I went out this morning for this little experiment. I set the subsonic at 20Hz on the underseat 8" woofers and calibrated without a sub. I then split the signal at the 4-ch amp and high-passed the underseats at 50Hz 24dB/oct and low-passed the sub at 50Hz, 12db/Oct.
> 
> The result? - Fantastic midbass and stellar subbass, the best of both worlds!


If you do this, then just sell the MS-8 and buy a BitOne or similar. 

Don't see the purpose of calibrating while leaving some drivers aside then add them back to the mix. 

Kelvin


----------



## goodstuff




----------



## kaigoss69

subwoofery said:


> If you do this, then just sell the MS-8 and buy a BitOne or similar.
> 
> Don't see the purpose of calibrating while leaving some drivers aside then add them back to the mix.
> 
> Kelvin


Tried the BitOne, sounded like ass compared to what I have now. I'm sure it wasn't the BitOne's fault, but rather my inexperience/incompetence to tune it correctly. I don't think the MS-8's autotune does much under 50Hz anyway, and most of the "magic" happens way above the sub frequencies, so it works for me. I have a fantastic sounding system now, firing on all cylinders. I don't give a **** if I had to use a "trick" to get there, or if you don't approve of what I did. Last time I checked, this is a DIY board.


----------



## CraigE

kaigoss69 said:


> Some people have reported a lack of midbass when using a trunk sub. This has been an issue especially in BMWs with the midbass drivers under the seats. If you calibrate without a sub, and let the woofers play all the way down, the midbass is great, but as soon as you add the sub into the mix, the midbass just disappears. It can be helped with the EQ, but not to the level of impact of the "no sub" calibration, not even close.
> 
> After having read about the lack of sub T/A recently, and Andy's explanation that it really is not that important, I had an idea. What if I calibrated without the sub, and then added it back in post calibration, using the crossovers in my amp? So I went out this morning for this little experiment. I set the subsonic at 20Hz on the underseat 8" woofers and calibrated without a sub. I then split the signal at the 4-ch amp and high-passed the underseats at 50Hz 24dB/oct and low-passed the sub at 50Hz, 12db/Oct.
> 
> The result? - Fantastic midbass and stellar subbass, the best of both worlds!


Mr Kaigoss,
Actually, I think you came up with a pretty good idea.

Pros; 
1- It frees up one MS-8 channel. In my case, it allows for a LO-HI center channel with more power to each, as opposed to a coaxial.
2- The sub is out of the calibration. It has been problematic in some setups.
3- The sub level control should function the same.
4- Midbass is not lacking, as reported in some setups.
5- It only takes a few minutes to reconfigure, and swap back if you don't like it.

Cons;
1- Sub isn't EQ'd during calibration. That can be done with the graphic EQ. not such a big deal. 
2- Sub level isn't adjusted during calibration.It can be set with sub amp gain, and fine tuned with MS-8 sub level control.
2- The signal the sub is now getting is LF Lo (with about 1ms of delay) and RF Lo (probably zero delay). What happens to the mixed signal, and does it matter ?

I'm gonna try it.


----------



## Vitty

Are you guys running the sub off the amp powering the fronts? I have thought about doing this as well.


----------



## kaigoss69

Vitty said:


> Are you guys running the sub off the amp powering the fronts? I have thought about doing this as well.


Yes.


----------



## CraigE

Vitty said:


> Are you guys running the sub off the amp powering the fronts? I have thought about doing this as well.


For me, the amp (Audison 3.1k) is powering F LOs and Sub.


----------



## Vitty

Cool. My Zuki Eleets 4 is powering my front tweet/mids but has a passthrough that I am going to try hooking to my Zuki Mono for the subs. Will try this out tomorrow evening.


----------



## big_ears

Man I'm having major trouble with my MS-8. I thought I previously addressed my problem by turning my amp gains all the way down - as the balance was mysteriously tracking to the right with MS-8 processing. I must have got lucky or been delusional because it is louder in the front EQ to the right side consistently now that I've checked closer. 

Basically after repeated attempts at calibration the balance tracks right, so I remove all speakers from the set up so only front L/R channel 6" woofers remain in the set up. To test I sit in the back seat with my head between the front seats. I only use/calibrate the driver position now as the only position is in the center of the car. The driver setting should now give me balanced sound from each speaker. This allows me to calibrate quicker to test more and should be more exact than averaging driver/passenger. I judge balance by listening to the same song in mono output or pink noise in mono. I flip back and forth between processing on and off to accentuate the balance difference. It's quite noticeable. 

I've flipped everything around a number of times so a different RCA cable/MS-8 output is controlling the right side. I've tried a bunch of calibration volumes, all reasonable with the same results. I've even assigned the L/R channels backwards in the MS8 and put the headphones on backwards to see if the headphone Mic was the problem. Of course tried a reset system too. Nothing works, it is always louder on right. And if I reverse RCA's after calibration the left becomes the louder side, so I know it is the way MS8 is EQing. It totally sucks I don't get it. It's way off to the point of sucking. The left side has the wheel and pedals but why would it cut that side (or boost the other) to the point the balance is shot. Any ideas? Driving me nuts. 

Arc ks300.2 Amp on minimum 
H.A.T. L6


----------



## quality_sound

^^^He's right. If your'e sitting in the middle of the car your'e going to be more on axis with the driver's side speakers and more off axis with the passenger's side speakers. You NEED to calibrate from the listening position or you're COMPLETELY missing the point of time alignment in the first place.


----------



## Sirrus

I think he's running calibration with "driver" in the same position, in the middle of the car.


----------



## goodstuff

why is it not dead from killing it with fire. Zombie ms-8 thread...brains....brains....


----------



## big_ears

Sirrus said:


> I think he's running calibration with "driver" in the same position, in the middle of the car.


Yes exactly, I'm not an idiot. I got tired of calibrating in drivers seat and passenger every time just to check balance in front setting while sitting in back with head in between front seats. While siting in this position path lengths are equal and both speakers should be equally off axis. Trying to check balance from drivers/passenger seat is a bit subjective as my legs are in front of speaker and it's harder to tell if MS-8 is dong it's job. From center of car with processing off I get 100% balanced sound L/R, easy to check if MS-8 is doing it's thing. I calibrate and listen from center of car to see if MS8 is working (in terms of balance) - it isn't.

And by the way, when I first started calibrating and listening from center of car, I calibrated driver and passenger position from the exact same center position in car. Interestingly the driver, passenger, and front positions all sounded different. I think passenger and front sounded similar but driver was way different. Gotta try this one again, make sure no external noise is present. Because that's kinda weired right? Or is it just something about the algorithm that makes it that way, assuming the listening positions are not the same? 

"why is it not dead from killing it with fire. Zombie ms-8 thread...brains....brains.... "

Fu(K the MS8 thread I'm getting ready to kill my MS8 with fire! :smash: Gonna go back and try again as battery has been charging. Was at 12.5 v should have been fine anyway. Just hoping the problem magically disappears for me this morning.

P.S. -- Quality_Sound you said "If you're sitting in the middle of the car you're going to be more on axis with the driver's side speakers and more off axis with the passenger's side speakers". Wait What? Both speakers are mounted identically so both will be equal off axis from center position in car, right?


----------



## BuickGN

My answer to every weird MS8 problem is a factory reset. Seems to get rid of all of the wierdness for a while.


----------



## big_ears

^^^^^Been done. No help.


----------



## big_ears

Alright I made a little progress. Figured out for amp on min sweeps were too quiet. With volume at 25 for calibration the balance is good. It came out good twice. I was in the 30's before. 

Problem now is when I turn amp input voltage up from min to around 3V the problem persists. I of course turned calibration sweeps down; I tried 25, 27, 30, 35, and 20. Guess I'll try every number between 25 and 35. With only two speakers in the system I should be able to turn the gain <1/4 turn for 3V. Hope I get lucky.


----------



## instalher

alright after all the fighting to get this thing working, with Andys input and some slight adjustments.. this thing sounds very nice indeed.. i think its is by far the best factory upgrade money can buy. period. for my wifes bmw.... perfect.. for me not my cup of tea but for what it does and the price.. well done jbl.. well done.


----------



## big_ears

Going nuts! Tried amp set at 3V and couldn't get balance to work at any calibration volume 25-30. Decided to go back to min on amp and 25 volume to see if that would work again. Not at first but after reset it did. Decided to press on and reset and run calibration again at min and 25 and see if it would be consistent. Nope! Now I can't get it to work again at min and 25, 24, or 23 with reseting at each and repeated tries. It's not analyzing consistently or is very susceptible to voltage drops. I have battery charging but it dropped to 11.8 by end of session. Really frustrating.

BTW at 25 volume sweeps read 72.5 db max- C weighting, impulse response, Lp level type. SSPro ipod.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

kaigoss that is a clever idea.


----------



## BuickGN

big_ears said:


> ^^^^^Been done. No help.


Are you pushing the reset button or actually going to the reset to factory default where it erases everything to the point you have to select the language and everything. I was reading the manual yesterday and it said the reset button does not erase previous calibration.


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> Some people have reported a lack of midbass when using a trunk sub. This has been an issue especially in BMWs with the midbass drivers under the seats. If you calibrate without a sub, and let the woofers play all the way down, the midbass is great, but as soon as you add the sub into the mix, the midbass just disappears. It can be helped with the EQ, but not to the level of impact of the "no sub" calibration, not even close.
> 
> After having read about the lack of sub T/A recently, and Andy's explanation that it really is not that important, I had an idea. What if I calibrated without the sub, and then added it back in post calibration, using the crossovers in my amp? So I went out this morning for this little experiment. I set the subsonic at 20Hz on the underseat 8" woofers and calibrated without a sub. I then split the signal at the 4-ch amp and high-passed the underseats at 50Hz 24dB/oct and low-passed the sub at 50Hz, 12db/Oct.
> 
> The result? - Fantastic midbass and stellar subbass, the best of both worlds!


 
This is an interesting work-around and is completely credible. In cars, very little EQ is required below 50Hz and this eliminates the level matching algorithm between midbass and subs, which seems to sometimes cause difficulty. I've found that with big midbass drivers and with amplifiers that also include crossovers that level matching sometimes requires several attempts at calibration with different gain adjustments for the sub. 

MS-8 uses 50-80 Hz to chec the level of the sub to match it according to the target with the front speakers. If there's a huge peak there in the sub and the midbass, and the crossover is set lower than that, the result can be a lack of midbass and bass too.


----------



## Sirrus

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> This is an interesting work-around and is completely credible. In cars, very little EQ is required below 50Hz and this eliminates the level matching algorithm between midbass and subs, which seems to sometimes cause difficulty. I've found that with big midbass drivers and with amplifiers that also include crossovers that level matching sometimes requires several attempts at calibration with different gain adjustments for the sub.
> 
> MS-8 uses 50-80 Hz to chec the level of the sub to match it according to the target with the front speakers. If there's a huge peak there in the sub and the midbass, and the crossover is set lower than that, the result can be a lack of midbass and bass too.


So Andy, are you saying that the sub/midbass crossover point should be within 50-80 Hz or above that, in an ideal case? I've been using 80 Hz in my BMW (8 inch midbass).


----------



## 14642

big_ears said:


> Alright I made a little progress. Figured out for amp on min sweeps were too quiet. With volume at 25 for calibration the balance is good. It came out good twice. I was in the 30's before.
> 
> Problem now is when I turn amp input voltage up from min to around 3V the problem persists. I of course turned calibration sweeps down; I tried 25, 27, 30, 35, and 20. Guess I'll try every number between 25 and 35. With only two speakers in the system I should be able to turn the gain <1/4 turn for 3V. Hope I get lucky.


I don't get it. First, factory reset is not the reset button on the unit, it's "Restore factory defaults" in the system settings screen. Please try that before you calibrate again. 

If you're only calibrating with two speakers during these experiments, please make sure L7 is off in addition to turning processing off to audition the difference. 

Is there any chance that you have one of the front channels configured as side or rear? That would do precisely what you have described, if you're auditioning with L7 on and then turning it off when you turn processing on and off. 

I'm on vacation and it's difficult for me to check in here or to check email. I'll check back in sometime this weekend.

Sorry for the inconvenience.


----------



## CraigE

Mr kaigoss,
I tried your method of NOT assigning a sub channel thru the MS-8, and crossing the midbass/sub over thru the amp.

YUP ! 
Big improvement with sub to midbass integration. 
Midbass is more present.
Timing seems much better, even with L7 on.

The first attempt was with the amp sub channel off, midbass 20hz to 300hz @24dB, sub added after calibration.
The second attempt was with midbass channels passed to sub channel, prior to calibration.. Sub/midbass crossover 60hz @12dB. 
Same results. Both were improved.

I have a small sealed sub enclosure that had a huge peak at 80hz when measuring the sub sweeps during calibration. I'm sure this was part of the problem.

Thank You Sir.
Craig

PS. Apparently, it works for Corvettes as well as BMWs.


----------



## big_ears

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I don't get it. 1. First, factory reset is not the reset button on the unit, it's "Restore factory defaults" in the system settings screen. Please try that before you calibrate again.
> 
> 2. If you're only calibrating with two speakers during these experiments, please make sure L7 is off in addition to turning processing off to audition the difference.
> 
> 3. Is there any chance that you have one of the front channels configured as side or rear? That would do precisely what you have described, if you're auditioning with L7 on and then turning it off when you turn processing on and off.
> 
> I'm on vacation and it's difficult for me to check in here or to check email. I'll check back in sometime this weekend.
> 
> Sorry for the inconvenience.


 1. I have been using "Restore factory defaults" in the system settings screen. I have been doing it every time I calibrate as of late.

2. I do turn L7 off to audition the difference. Incidentally it makes no difference. The balance is to the right with L7 on or off with processing active.

3. No chance I have front channel configured as side or rear. When I run calibration the only speakers in the set up are fronts. Everything else is entered as "none". And it does sound like the MS8 is treating left front like a side/rear. In mono playback the right sounds dominant and the left sounds like it is an accent. I don't think that is the case, I think it just sounds that way.

Actually today I finally figured out if I just leave the processing off I'm way happier with how it sounds. No EQ or TA obviously, but it actually sounds WAY better. The soundstage/imaging came alive with the balanced output L/R. I never really thought to try just leaving it off all the time. Obviously that isn't supposed to be the case, something is wrong here.


----------



## jhnkvn

Nuts, I'll be trying kaigoss' suggestions later. I've seem to have an issue with integrating the sub with the midbass, at first I thought it was the subwoofer's fault because it's too loud before it hit me "wait, isn't my midbass too tiny?" so I'm tackling that problem now.

Will post back for the results tomorrow.

EDIT: I also have a question: Would calibrating with the engine on (around 24dB inside the cabin) versus engine off be noticeable?


----------



## akelu

Am i alright to run "sides" in the parcel shelf? so they would be bouncing off the rear window in a sedan. (and not using "rears")
am i right in assuming that if logic7 is turned off, then rears will just replicate the front?


----------



## big_ears

akelu said:


> Am i alright to run "sides" in the parcel shelf? so they would be bouncing off the rear window in a sedan. (and not using "rears")
> am i right in assuming that if logic7 is turned off, then rears will just replicate the front?


Yes and yes. 

That will be fine. The rear (sides) will bounce off the glass but it should be no problem. There will be reflected sound off the glass but as they are positioned right next to the glass the reflected sound will be heard as part of the original sound not as an early reflection. It will make the sound slightly brighter but the MS8 should EQ and take care of that. Like Andy's suggestion of pointing the center speaker in the dash straight up at the windshield not pointing forward, this will work and not pose any problem.

If one wanted more direct sound one could put pods on the rear shelf or pod up the rear pillars but there's no guarantee that would sound better. I know for the center Andy suggests not pointing the driver straight forward, in the rear it might be slightly different though. I know Andy suggested just sticking them in the rear shelf as a way to make the sub as time aligned as possible, so if he's suggesting it it must be a good way to go.


----------



## taibanl

CraigE said:


> Mr kaigoss,
> I tried your method of NOT assigning a sub channel thru the MS-8, and crossing the midbass/sub over thru the amp.
> 
> YUP !
> Big improvement with sub to midbass integration.
> Midbass is more present.
> Timing seems much better, even with L7 on.
> 
> The first attempt was with the amp sub channel off, midbass 20hz to 300hz @24dB, sub added after calibration.
> The second attempt was with midbass channels passed to sub channel, prior to calibration.. Sub/midbass crossover 60hz @12dB.
> Same results. Both were improved.
> 
> I have a small sealed sub enclosure that had a huge peak at 80hz when measuring the sub sweeps during calibration. I'm sure this was part of the problem.
> 
> Thank You Sir.
> Craig
> 
> PS. Apparently, it works for Corvettes as well as BMWs.


This is horrible that you have to go to such a great length to Trick F### the MS-8. This needs to be fixed immediately


----------



## taibanl

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> This is an interesting work-around and is completely credible. In cars, very little EQ is required below 50Hz and this eliminates the level matching algorithm between midbass and subs, which seems to sometimes cause difficulty. I've found that with big midbass drivers and with amplifiers that also include crossovers that level matching sometimes requires several attempts at calibration with different gain adjustments for the sub.
> 
> MS-8 uses 50-80 Hz to chec the level of the sub to match it according to the target with the front speakers. If there's a huge peak there in the sub and the midbass, and the crossover is set lower than that, the result can be a lack of midbass and bass too.


Please tell me how to fix this WITHOUT kaigoss's workaround. Different cross points? (I am running an ID10 trunk sub @ 300watts, and SSMB8 underseats @ 200 watts each, crossed @ 70)


----------



## gumbeelee

i have a ms-8 question............i currently have 4 full range speakers and 2 subs running off one channel, so i have a total of 5 channels running to the ms-8....i am thinking about installing components in my truck....if i install components, i will now have a total of 7 channels...(2 mids, 2 tweets, 2 rear full range, and 2 subs off 1 channel)...i am running the alpine pdx-5 amp, and do not won't to have to use the ms-8 amp if all possible...i was wondering if i can keep my same set-up of five channels instead of having to assign each seperate component its own seperate channel...i don't won't to have to run my rear full range speakers off the ms-8 amp, it would not be enough power to rear full range speakers....so if they are anyway, i was just wondering if could still run 5 channels....one channel to the front left component, one channel to front right component, one channel to the left rear full range, one channel to the right rear full range, and one channel to the two subs....i would love to be able to keep the same set-up......i am sure this might have been discussed some where in this thread before but i have not found it yet......andy i would love to have some feedback from you......all feedback is greatly appreciated.......thanks


----------



## quality_sound

Just use the passives that come with the new component set and you won't have to change a thing.


----------



## nineball

gumbeelee said:


> i have a ms-8 question............i currently have 4 full range speakers and 2 subs running off one channel, so i have a total of 5 channels running to the ms-8....i am thinking about installing components in my truck....if i install components, i will now have a total of 7 channels...(2 mids, 2 tweets, 2 rear full range, and 2 subs off 1 channel)...i am running the alpine pdx-5 amp, and do not won't to have to use the ms-8 amp if all possible...i was wondering if i can keep my same set-up of five channels instead of having to assign each seperate component its own seperate channel...i don't won't to have to run my rear full range speakers off the ms-8 amp, it would not be enough power to rear full range speakers....so if they are anyway, i was just wondering if could still run 5 channels....one channel to the front left component, one channel to front right component, one channel to the left rear full range, one channel to the right rear full range, and one channel to the two subs....i would love to be able to keep the same set-up......i am sure this might have been discussed some where in this thread before but i have not found it yet......andy i would love to have some feedback from you......all feedback is greatly appreciated.......thanks



i'd give it a try with the comps active and the ms-8 powering the rear. currently running that in my setup (while i wait for my new amps to ship) and i am happy with the results:

sub - getting ~400
tweets - getting ~35 each 
mids - getting ~125 each
rear - powered by ms-8 (rated at 100rms fwiw)

even with the rear getting 18rms each via the ms-8 overall it still sounds amazing.


----------



## ramsa1

This may be a stupid question but I'll ask. 

I calibrated MS8 with all amps set at approx 2v. The system sounds fantastic (front, sides and sub), but I need a little more volume. The problem is I have 3 separate amps (different brands and different sensitivity ranges). An amp for midbass, another for tweeters and sides and one on sub.
How can I up the gain across all amps so that everything remains level matched as per MS8?


----------



## AndyInOC

ramsa1 said:


> This may be a stupid question but I'll ask.
> 
> I calibrated MS8 with all amps set at approx 2v. The system sounds fantastic (front, sides and sub), but I need a little more volume. The problem is I have 3 separate amps (different brands and different sensitivity ranges). An amp for midbass, another for tweeters and sides and one on sub.
> How can I up the gain across all amps so that everything remains level matched as per MS8?


You can do it a couple different ways. By ear - turn it up @ the amps until it gets more volume and still has the same sound, or do it with a multimeter and test tone.


----------



## Lanson

turn them up during the first sound test (noise played through each output before auto-calibration.)


----------



## ramsa1

^^^ If i did that, I would have to rerun acoustic calibration again and maybe at a lower volume? 

The DMM and test tones is an interesting suggestion. Do I run approprite test tones, note the voltages across the 3 amplifiers, and multiply accordingly to keep the same voltage ratios?


----------



## AndyInOC

ramsa1 said:


> ^^^ If i did that, I would have to rerun acoustic calibration again and maybe at a lower volume?
> 
> The DMM and test tones is an interesting suggestion. Do I run approprite test tones, note the voltages across the 3 amplifiers, and multiply accordingly to keep the same voltage ratios?



There's a tutorial on the jl audio website that can explain it better than me, but the short and sweet version is - disconnect your speakers at the amp, use a sine wave from the head directly to your amps (bypassing the ms8) and with a lower voltage output from the radio rca's adjust your amps to the correct output voltage.

Keep in mind that you need to know what voltage = what wattage and the power handling of your speakers.


----------



## Lanson

And it doesn't work.

ChrisB's excellent article explains:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1337104-post9.html


----------



## AndyInOC

fourthmeal said:


> And it doesn't work.
> 
> ChrisB's excellent article explains:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1337104-post9.html


Are you sure it doesn't work? Or did you just believe it because someone else says so? Since getting my ms8 installed it has become my go to method for gain setting and has not let me down yet.

If you have a "4v" head, turning up the volume until it puts out 1-2v will not cause any clipping from the head. If it is a 4v head and you turn it to max volume to get that 4v out, yes there will be clipping. And yes you will see it, and hear it


----------



## ramsa1

AndyInOC said:


> There's a tutorial on the jl audio website that can explain it better than me, but the short and sweet version is - disconnect your speakers at the amp, use a sine wave from the head directly to your amps (bypassing the ms8) and with a lower voltage output from the radio rca's adjust your amps to the correct output voltage.
> 
> Keep in mind that you need to know what voltage = what wattage and the power handling of your speakers.


Do I have to connect the HU directly to the amps or can i keep MS8 in the chain? My goal is not to achieve max output from the amps (lots of headroom), just to get a little more volume while keeing everything level matched as acoustic calibration set it.

Oh and what is strange is when i initially set up MS8 i had my gains higher, with acoustic calibration run at a lower volume alomost -50, and the output then was almost the same as currently (-35 on calibration).

I am hoping that raising gain after this -35 calibration would solve my low output problem


----------



## taibanl

taibanl said:


> Please tell me how to fix this WITHOUT kaigoss's workaround. Different cross points? (I am running an ID10 trunk sub @ 300watts, and SSMB8 underseats @ 200 watts each, crossed @ 70)


If the sub sweep is from 50 to 80. What if i cross my midbass @85/24db. Will this help?


----------



## AndyInOC

ramsa1 said:


> Do I have to connect the HU directly to the amps or can i keep MS8 in the chain? My goal is not to achieve max output from the amps (lots of headroom), just to get a little more volume while keeing everything level matched as acoustic calibration set it.
> 
> Oh and what is strange is when i initially set up MS8 i had my gains higher, with acoustic calibration run at a lower volume alomost -50, and the output then was almost the same as currently (-35 on calibration).
> 
> I am hoping that raising gain after this -35 calibration would solve my low output problem



If I were you I would just bump the gains by ear and eye. Just give them all a nudge approximately the same amount, you will know if you go too far.


----------



## AAAAAAA

I will have to try disconnecting the sub channel as well. IT seems like adding the sub is the hardest part. I have tried with it louder, equal and almost inaudible and it just doesn’t want to work this time around.

Especially now I am stuck with zero midbase and base. It’s aaaaaaall gone. Strangely I tried with one side really loud compared to all the others. Overall volume ended up being good and there was a good amount of bass. This thing works in strange ways.

Before I changed my front speakers I had gotten it pretty good but now I can’t even get it close.

Just venting a bit because I have no time to work on the car and this needs some of my time to get going and it’s frustrating being stuck with no lows driving for a couple of hours every day.


----------



## JJAZ

ramsa1;1347564The DMM and test tones is an interesting suggestion. Do I run approprite test tones said:


> Exactly the way to do it, and yes, it will work..
> 
> You could do it by ear instead though.


----------



## ramsa1

Thanks guys. Will give it a try as soon as i get some time. 
If i go by ear I think I would be paranoid every time i listen to the system, wondering if I set everthing the way it should be. LOL


----------



## Lanson

AAAAAAA said:


> I will have to try disconnecting the sub channel as well. IT seems like adding the sub is the hardest part. I have tried with it louder, equal and almost inaudible and it just doesn’t want to work this time around.
> 
> Especially now I am stuck with zero midbase and base. It’s aaaaaaall gone. Strangely I tried with one side really loud compared to all the others. Overall volume ended up being good and there was a good amount of bass. This thing works in strange ways.
> 
> Before I changed my front speakers I had gotten it pretty good but now I can’t even get it close.
> 
> Just venting a bit because I have no time to work on the car and this needs some of my time to get going and it’s frustrating being stuck with no lows driving for a couple of hours every day.


Phase on one of the midbass?


----------



## subwoofery

fourthmeal said:


> Phase on one of the midbass that needs to be reversed?


Yep... Feel that is the problem. 

Kelvin


----------



## AAAAAAA

I will flip it tonight but I doubt it, I was particularly carefull to make sure they are the same as I know MS8 needs them all to be wired identically.

Last night a did a quick level matching by putting my DB meter on each spaker and making sure they are all the same (or close) vs from the drivers seat. Not much difference.

Time is hard to come by. Wife wanting me to finish the basement hehe.


----------



## gumbeelee

I am pretty sure this question has probably been ask before in this thread but I can't find it...........I was wondering abount my headunit settings,(kenwood kiv-700 digital media reciever) if i should use any of the audio options the headunit offers? for example should i use the bass boost, the supreme function, the highway sound function, the dsp function, any of the preset speaker locations(right front, left front, or all), it has a speaker size option and subwoofer option to choose your speaker size and sub size, also it has a type of car driving option as well, and if i should set the crossover points in my headunit, or should i just leave all of these options off? does it even matter if i use the headunit settings with the ms-8, or does the ms-8 just use the setttings you input during the ms-8 set-up and does not take into account the headunit settings? all feedback will greatly appreciated.........thanks


----------



## rain27

gumbeelee said:


> I am pretty sure this question has probably been ask before in this thread but I can't find it...........I was wondering abount my headunit settings,(kenwood kiv-700 digital media reciever) if i should use any of the audio options the headunit offers? for example should i use the bass boost, the supreme function, the highway sound function, the dsp function, any of the preset speaker locations(right front, left front, or all), it has a speaker size option and subwoofer option to choose your speaker size and sub size, also it has a type of car driving option as well, and if i should set the crossover points in my headunit, or should i just leave all of these options off? does it even matter if i use the headunit settings with the ms-8, or does the ms-8 just use the setttings you input during the ms-8 set-up and does not take into account the headunit settings? all feedback will greatly appreciated.........thanks


Undo all sound processing at your head unit and let the ms8 take over.


----------



## akelu

finally got around to fitting my ms-8

Just wanted to make sure it worked okay because i got it overseas

Havent had time to put sub in the box so i just went 2 way front

My... GOD... so THATS what processing is all about!! i see it now.. a completely perfect image in the CENTER of the dash! It makes so much more sense then completely in front of me which is what i had tuned for manually previously.

And the auto-EQ. Wow. It makes music sound so much better. I find myself zoning out to the music because it seems so real.. I hope i dont do this while driving!! :laugh:

This was on the first acoustic alignment, my doors arent even fully sealed yet and i used a crossover point too low for my mid, yet it still sounded so amazing. 

The real ":surprised:" point is where you turn defeat on and off and then i hear a part i didnt know was in the song i know well, turn it off , rewind and play over that part and its almost inaudible.

I can't wait until i get my rears and sub in and get the front doors completely sealed.. If i'm this impressed already then .. :bowdown:

Well done to the guys at JBL. Color me impressed.


----------



## jhnkvn

Getting a weak midbass problem. Any thoughts on where I should check?


----------



## big_ears

@jhnkvn

Weak midbass with L7 on or off or both? How was midbass before MS8? Where are mid bass drivers? If in doors are doors sealed to make good baffle - i.e. front and rear wave not mixing. If using center, is it on par with front L/R speakers and is amplification on par? Have you tried EQing it back? Or raising gain on midbass driver after calibration?

I had weak midbass with L7 on before upgrading my center to match my fronts (speakers & amp). I also made my door baffles good by covering holes in door. I was powering center with MS8 on old MB Quart 4" and tweeter and it was plenty loud but midbass sucked. Upgrading helped a lot and I only have 3" driver in there now.

Of course I'm having processing problems, but with processing off L7 sounds pretty good for midbass right now.

Some have found good midbass "integration" by splitting signal to front midbass driver and running sub off that instead of on it's own channel.


----------



## AAAAAAA

I tried swaping the phase of my midbase and no diff.

I did try the subwoofer bypass mod and I like it a lot. Next step is to do the center active, all the wireing is already in place so all I need is of rmy wife to not be giving birth haha. But I can't really hold that up.

yeah


----------



## BuickGN

bikinpunk said:


> I just verified that my Z110BT setup has an issue, too, with BT.
> 
> Wife says it echos no matter what I do.
> I can hear fine, but callers can't.
> 
> Does it with L7 on and off.
> Does it with cancellation of 'echo defeat' on & off on my z110bt _and_ my blackberry itself.
> 
> Doesn't matter if I'm using headunit volume at max/min or ms-8 volume at max/min.


I was just wondering if an update was ever offered. I have the same echo. BT is usable and sounds fine on my end but it's pretty bad for the people on the other end.


----------



## nineball

BuickGN said:


> I was just wondering if an update was ever offered. I have the same echo. BT is usable and sounds fine on my end but it's pretty bad for the people on the other end.



yep. jbl has it posted on their site. someone posted the link on this board a week or two ago but i can't find it right now.


----------



## emoon3

I'm having an issue with my volume being low after calibration. I'm using a LiteBox Stereo 4 for my front highs and mids and a PDX 4.150 for the lows and sub. I'm running Morel MT23 tweeters, Hybrid Ovation 4's for the mids with Kicker SSMB8's for the lows and a Morel Ultimo SC 10 sub.

I level matched the two amps using an RTA on my iPhone and then ran my sweeps. Sound comes out balanced just low. I have my gains almost maxed and the MS-8 at -2db volume and with my head unit volume cranked all the way, it gets moderately loud, but still with the windows down and the sunroof open it can be a little difficult to hear.

I'm not expecting those amps to make people hear me from blocks away, but they should be louder than that. It sounds great, imaging centered on the dash, just not at the output I think I should be getting.

Is there something I'm missing in the sweeps or setup that could be causing this?


Thanks!


----------



## 14642

Check the difference in level between processing off and processing on. If it's a lot louder with the processing off, try calibrating with the amplifier gains LOWER and with the subwoofer gain a litle higher. Then, if the level matching is reducing the level of mids and highs to match the sub, it'll readjust a bit.


----------



## emoon3

Thx Andy.

It is louder with processing off. I'll try adjusting the gains for the calibration.

Now when you say try the Subwoofer gain higher, do you mean boost the Subwoofer in the MS-8 or amp gain itself.


----------



## AndyInOC

emoon3 said:


> Thx Andy.
> 
> It is louder with processing off. I'll try adjusting the gains for the calibration.
> 
> Now when you say try the Subwoofer gain higher, do you mean boost the Subwoofer in the MS-8 or amp gain itself.



He means sub amp gain higher


----------



## emoon3

AndyInOC said:


> He means sub amp gain higher


Thanks


----------



## akelu

and now ive just gone and added a sub and its really reduced my midbass for some reason.

I calibrated with the sub just audible same sorta volume as front 2-way (speaking level)

EQ and staging is perfect.

Sub sounds good when i turn the gains up a bit
But, even without doing that, the midbass is alot lower volume then without sub??

Crossovers used:
Sub 70/24
mid/high 2500/24

Ive done at least 5 calibrations with the sub at varying levels and the volume at varying levels, i am still gettin this result.
Any ideas?

Thanks


----------



## Lanson

akelu said:


> and now ive just gone and added a sub and its really reduced my midbass for some reason.
> 
> I calibrated with the sub just audible same sorta volume as front 2-way (speaking level)
> 
> EQ and staging is perfect.
> 
> Sub sounds good when i turn the gains up a bit
> But, even without doing that, the midbass is alot lower volume then without sub??
> 
> Crossovers used:
> Sub 70/24
> mid/high 2500/24
> 
> Ive done at least 5 calibrations with the sub at varying levels and the volume at varying levels, i am still gettin this result.
> Any ideas?
> 
> Thanks



Usually what most do is either add midbass via EQ or you can can do the Kaigoss method and run the sub via the line-out of the front speaker's amp.

The MS8 just does this on its own. Its kinda a quirk of it but it can be negated.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy,

can you try and explain the reason as to why a lot of us are having problems with weak midbass? If we knew why, perhaps there could be some adjustments/changes we can make in our set-ups and equipment in order to alleviate/minimize the problem.

I have a theory but I would like you official explanation. My theory is that the bass and midbass applications have potentially large differences between the peak of one versus the dip of the other and that MS-8 may not be able to compensate for the delta between the two, and in an effort to give as flat a response as possible, it may therefore reduce levels to compensate.


----------



## SSSnake

My suggestion is to RTA your midbass response and look for large peaks. If the MS-8 can't cut the peak sufficiently it will in all likelihood reduce the overall midbass output to compensate (at least in one application I know of). THis really gets back to getting the install right. No one should really want to have peaks in the response that are VERY large even with an MS-8 because they typically come with associated nulls that CAN NOT be eq'd.


----------



## brocken

fourthmeal said:


> Usually what most do is either add midbass via EQ or you can can do the Kaigoss method and run the sub via the line-out of the front speaker's amp.
> 
> The MS8 just does this on its own. Its kinda a quirk of it but it can be negated.


The 'Kaigoss' method won't work if you use the MS-8 as your xover though... The amp can't send out signal to the sub amp if it doesn't get that signal in the first place.

I need to mess with mine a bit and add midbass via EQ or changing gains.

I know it's the MS-8 adjustments taking out midbass snap because I've played the speakers straight from the amp and they really kick.
After MS-8 tuning the bass is a little much and the mids kinda faded it seems. 
I think I might have had my sub gains too low when I ran the setup and the MS-8 tried to compensate.


----------



## Lanson

brocken said:


> The 'Kaigoss' method won't work if you use the MS-8 as your xover though... The amp can't send out signal to the sub amp if it doesn't get that signal in the first place.
> 
> I need to mess with mine a bit and add midbass via EQ or changing gains.
> 
> I know it's the MS-8 adjustments taking out midbass snap because I've played the speakers straight from the amp and they really kick.
> After MS-8 tuning the bass is a little much and the mids kinda faded it seems.
> I think I might have had my sub gains too low when I ran the setup and the MS-8 tried to compensate.


It will work provided you have four things

1: Amp'd front speakers
2: Said amp has a line out (edit* or you could Y-out from the MS8 fronts)
3: Said amp has a least basic crossover HP
4: Subwoofer amp has basic crossover LP

You would tell MS8 "No Sub", send full signal to front speakers less Infrasonic Filtered signal. On main speaker amp, you would then set crossover so mids will not be tortured and killed by too low a frequency. Let's say 85hz. MOST amps can do this no sweat. This amp then would need a line out (or I suppose you could even Y out from the MS8's main fronts now that I think about it.) Then the sub amp can use its crossover and low-pass to the sub. It is brutishly simple.

The only time this won't work is if you have ZERO crossovers on your amps (rare) OR if you are using the MS8 for amp'd front speakers.


----------



## big_ears

I figured out the MS-8 mid bass problem. It's so simple. The MS-8 is a P.O.S.

:rifle:

After having gross L/R balance problems on my front speakers I decided to test only have 2 speakers in the set up again, but the rear speakers this time. I have never noticed a balance problem in the rear and figured the balance L/R would be fine. It was. The problem is it made clear as day the fact the MS-8 steals all your midbass and generally makes the sound dull and lifeless. Once again I tried various calibration volumes and had the amp on min. The midbass literally disappears with processing on with just 2 speakers. I am so over this P.O.S. I've had nothing but problems with it since it was installed. First there was reverb in the sound when using high level inputs. It sucked so I got aftermarket HU. Then their is the balance issue which was always there. Now I see clear as day the midbass is STOLEN with MS-8 even with 2 F'in speakers! I'm F'in done. Thanks JBL for the $900 crossover + L7. Thanks for the plethora of hours wasted trying to get this to sound decent. Last JBL product I ever buy.

I dare you to try this experiment, two speakers processing on and off. See what happens. It's like Brocken said-

"I know it's the MS-8 adjustments taking out midbass snap because I've played the speakers straight from the amp and they really kick."

Anyone got a Bit-one for sale and/or want to buy this golden turd?


----------



## Lanson

quoted for keeps




big_ears said:


> I figured out the MS-8 mid bass problem. It's so simple. The MS-8 is a P.O.S.
> 
> :rifle:
> 
> After having gross L/R balance problems on my front speakers I decided to test only have 2 speakers in the set up again, but the rear speakers this time. I have never noticed a balance problem in the rear and figured the balance L/R would be fine. It was. The problem is it made clear as day the fact the MS-8 steals all your midbass and generally makes the sound dull and lifeless. Once again I tried various calibration volumes and had the amp on min. The midbass literally disappears with processing on with just 2 speakers. I am so over this P.O.S. I've had nothing but problems with it since it was installed. First there was reverb in the sound when using high level inputs. It sucked so I got aftermarket HU. Then their is the balance issue which was always there. Now I see clear as day the midbass is STOLEN with MS-8 even with 2 F'in speakers! I'm F'in done. Thanks JBL for the $900 crossover + L7. Thanks for the plethora of hours wasted trying to get this to sound decent. Last JBL product I ever buy.
> 
> I dare you to try this experiment, two speakers processing on and off. See what happens. It's like Brocken said-
> 
> "I know it's the MS-8 adjustments taking out midbass snap because I've played the speakers straight from the amp and they really kick."
> 
> Anyone got a Bit-one for sale and/or want to buy this golden turd?


----------



## big_ears

Enjoy.

I forgot to mention the 1/3 octave EQ. That of course is part of the $900 cost and is a great asset. The auto EQ sux and that's how I feel. I'm tired of wasting my time.


----------



## Lanson

big_ears said:


> Enjoy.
> 
> I forgot to mention the 1/3 octave EQ. That of course is part of the $900 cost and is a great asset. The auto EQ sux and that's how I feel. I'm tired of wasting my time.


Others including me will disagree, but such is life, good thing there are other options. 

Boy its a good thing you didn't get a chance to play with a RF 3sixty.2. You would have ripped that thing a new ******* for its issues.

Also wtf is $900? I paid $400, and they are available brand spanking new straight from Harman for about $559.30.


----------



## big_ears

fourthmeal said:


> Others including me will disagree, but such is life, good thing there are other options.
> 
> Boy its a good thing you didn't get a chance to play with a RF 3sixty.2. You would have ripped that thing a new ******* for its issues.
> 
> Also wtf is $900? I paid $400, and they are available brand spanking new straight from Harman for about $559.30.


Sorry I paid $800 full retail, my bad. I bought and had installed at local shop, it was newly released and I paid full price. I don't think I could get it cheaper at that time because I believe I checked, I did buy all other items online for less than MSRP that I had them install (except ARC amp).


----------



## mworx

I'm new to this thread but I'll be installing one in a toyota tacoma with the follwing set up and wanted to know if it's necessary for a center speaker.

1-pair of Phass DTM25 tweeters
1-pair of PHASS MD0796 6.5" Midbass
1-pair of PHASS coaxs on the rear door
1-pair of DLS RW12 12" subs 2ohm vc's running mono
1-Kenwood DNX9980HD
1-PHASS TP 4.75 4ch amp powering the mids and tweeters active
1-DLS XD10 790 watt mono amp for subs
1- JBL MS8 utlizing the amp to power the rears.

Please advise if the will be any issues on this setup.

Thanks,


----------



## AndyInOC

big_ears said:


> Sorry I paid $800 full retail, my bad. I bought and had installed at local shop, it was newly released and I paid full price. I don't think I could get it cheaper at that time because I believe I checked, I did buy all other items online for less than MSRP that I had them install (except ARC amp).



Seeing how all the gear was store bought and installed by someone other than yourself have you run through any troubleshooting on your own before declaring it a turd? Lots of people have struggled with issues with the ms8, but with proper setup and troubleshooting it provides a damn good starting point. I have played with mine a ton to get to a point where I'm happy, I hesitate to say I struggled because its a hobby, not a job.


----------



## mworx

anyone?


----------



## jhnkvn

big_ears said:


> @jhnkvn
> 
> Weak midbass with L7 on or off or both? How was midbass before MS8? Where are mid bass drivers? If in doors are doors sealed to make good baffle - i.e. front and rear wave not mixing. If using center, is it on par with front L/R speakers and is amplification on par? Have you tried EQing it back? Or raising gain on midbass driver after calibration?
> 
> I had weak midbass with L7 on before upgrading my center to match my fronts (speakers & amp). I also made my door baffles good by covering holes in door. I was powering center with MS8 on old MB Quart 4" and tweeter and it was plenty loud but midbass sucked. Upgrading helped a lot and I only have 3" driver in there now.
> 
> Of course I'm having processing problems, but with processing off L7 sounds pretty good for midbass right now.
> 
> Some have found good midbass "integration" by splitting signal to front midbass driver and running sub off that instead of on it's own channel.


Actually, I'm running a 3-way setup so I don't have center or rears at the moment. Midbass is there but relatively "thin" or "weak" for my ears. I believe that I need more deadening on the doors though as my doors still vibrate to every frequency the midbass is dishing out. The doors have already been deadened using 2 layers of STP but I think I need to add some foam mats for the plastic panel. I'd post back what wonders would additional deadening do (it's the #1 in my to-do-list)

At the moment, I'm having sub problems wherein subwoofer is too... "loud" in a sense. It's completely overshadowing the midbass so I ended up dialing the gains all the way back (it's near the minimum amount now) just to balance the midbass-to-subbass integration. Tested it and my rear seats were still pounding, flipped the phase to 180 and now there's better integration. So basically, I have weak bass (at the moment)

Running a Focal 6KRX3 and feeding it active with 75W of under-rated Xtant power.

I'm thinking on how would I do Kaigoss' suggestion. Quite newbie here in terms of DIY


----------



## rain27

mworx said:


> I'm new to this thread but I'll be installing one in a toyota tacoma with the follwing set up and wanted to know if it's necessary for a center speaker.
> 
> 1-pair of Phass DTM25 tweeters
> 1-pair of PHASS MD0796 6.5" Midbass
> 1-pair of PHASS coaxs on the rear door
> 1-pair of DLS RW12 12" subs 2ohm vc's running mono
> 1-Kenwood DNX9980HD
> 1-PHASS TP 4.75 4ch amp powering the mids and tweeters active
> 1-DLS XD10 790 watt mono amp for subs
> 1- JBL MS8 utlizing the amp to power the rears.
> 
> Please advise if the will be any issues on this setup.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,


No issues with this set up. If you don't use a center it will create a "phantom" center which can work well.


----------



## rdv

mworx said:


> I'm new to this thread but I'll be installing one in a toyota tacoma with the follwing set up and wanted to know if it's necessary for a center speaker.
> 
> 1-pair of Phass DTM25 tweeters
> 1-pair of PHASS MD0796 6.5" Midbass
> 1-pair of PHASS coaxs on the rear door
> 1-pair of DLS RW12 12" subs 2ohm vc's running mono
> 1-Kenwood DNX9980HD
> 1-PHASS TP 4.75 4ch amp powering the mids and tweeters active
> 1-DLS XD10 790 watt mono amp for subs
> 1- JBL MS8 utlizing the amp to power the rears.
> 
> Please advise if the will be any issues on this setup.
> 
> Thanks,


No experience with those speakers but i would say try it without a center channel first. i first used my ms8 in my honda crv with a center channel. i thought i was having phase issues with the center since it was only a 4" so i removed it to try and fit a bigger driver. in the meantime i recalibrated without the center and was surprised at how clearly the ms8 was able to generate the phantom center. plus those 'issues' i thought i had were gone. i find that calibration can be greatly affected by my head position (at least for me) but after one or two tries i can generally have the singer right on the center of the dash. i still havent upgraded my center but the speaker wire is still there and connected to the ms8 (I just taped off the ends) so it will be pretty easy for me to add the speaker back later on. for now im happy the way it is

the disadvantage to this is that when you sit in the passenger seat the stage will not be evenly spread across the dash and will be pushed to the right. my passengers dont mind and i do the driving most of the time anyway.

btw i am using only one 4 channel amp in my system - front for the door mids and rear bridged to a single sub. gains are pretty much down to minimum. i have a 3 way front with 2 inch mids and tweeters passively crossed. the ms8 powers the mid/tweet combo and the rear speakers. not sure about the specs of your speakers but i think you may find it a little tricky to tune if you have the same power going to your mids and tweets. but others here have done it successfully. i never felt i needed to power my mid/tweeter combo with a separate amp


----------



## kapone

Andy, got a quick question for you. 

A few folks responded in my build thread that putting tweeters in the rear deck (bouncing off of the rear windshield) was a bad idea. My thought process was that with an MS-8 that is _precisely _what you want i.e. tweeters (with mids of course) in the rear and preferably bouncing off the windshield for a more diffuse effect. Which one of these assumptions is correct?

Here's how my rear deck is shaping up: (It's a sealed enclosure btw, with two mids and 2 tweets, if that makes a difference one way or the other).


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

I am having some difficulty understanding what settings to use while setting up a new system.

Audison 5.1k amp
JBL MS-8
Kenwood 9980 head unit
Hertz Mile ML 280 tweeters
Hertz ML 1600 woofers
(optional) Hertz Crossover

The problem I am seeing is, you are suppose to keep the JBL at -21db if using a external amp source. 

By doing this the volume output I am getting is lowered than if i were to just plug the rca's directly into the amp.

Also the slope and Xover as this is a new setup and not familiar to what to run these speakers at. 

The tweeters are being ran off axis


----------



## jhnkvn

bigaudiofanatic said:


> I am having some difficulty understanding what settings to use while setting up a new system.
> 
> Audison 5.1k amp
> JBL MS-8
> Kenwood 9980 head unit
> Hertz Mile ML 280 tweeters
> Hertz ML 1600 woofers
> (optional) Hertz Crossover
> 
> The problem I am seeing is, you are suppose to keep the JBL at -21db if using a external amp source.
> 
> By doing this the volume output I am getting is lowered than if i were to just plug the rca's directly into the amp.
> 
> Also the slope and Xover as this is a new setup and not familiar to what to run these speakers at.
> 
> The tweeters are being ran off axis


I believe you're supposed to set your gains and run the calibration at around -40db. I personally run it around -45 to -38 and there's a pretty big margin of error on it.

Are you using the crossovers? It would be easier if you were not to use it actually  But add protection for the tweets as there's still that (unfixed) full-range frequency blast at startup.

No subwoofer installed?


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

jhnkvn said:


> I believe you're supposed to set your gains and run the calibration at around -40db. I personally run it around -45 to -38 and there's a pretty big margin of error on it.
> 
> Are you using the crossovers? It would be easier if you were not to use it actually  But add protection for the tweets as there's still that (unfixed) full-range frequency blast at startup.
> 
> No subwoofer installed?


Sub later, no crossover just ran to the audison each has its own channel.


----------



## hallsc

Hey guys,

I FINALLY got my MS-8 in. 

Obligatory Equipment list:

Eclipse CD7200
Billet 4100 Stage III 100 x 4 going to Dynaudio MD102 tweets and Esotar 430 midranges
DLS A7, CH 1-4 bridged for 200 x 2 going to Dynaudio MW 162 midbass
CH 5 providing 300 (gotta be more than that?) going to Esotar 1200 sub

It took me a couple of times to get through the cal procedure one time, if that makes sense ("Oh, I didn't mean that crossover point for midbass/midrange, ****!"), but I only had to go to the sweeps once. I sat in the driver's seat, did the thing, made my girlfriend sit in the passenger seat and to the thing...actually, I should correct myself; she asked me DURING ONE OF THE SWEEPS, "Should I look at anything in particular, or just straight ahead?" and I yelled at her and restarted. J/k about the yelling, but I did only do the sweeps twice and only listened to it after the second one.

This things tunes VERY well. I thought I had my car sounding pretty damn good (I haven't been to competitions to hear the super cars, but I hadn't heard a better one than mine). This thing is a very significant difference. My midbass is a LITTLE weak, but my sub bass is not missing whatsoever (nor is it overpowering). I have not messed with the EQ yet, but I am hoping to get the midbass back up there with that. Even if it doesn't come back and I have to go through the sweeps again, right now this is the best my car has sounded for sure. Super clear, super clean, imaging is locked in on the center of the dash, my girlfriend kept talking about how great it sounded...by the way, when I ran the sweeps, I was VERY surprised at how low they were; I was ready to have to raise the volume a bit, but I was like, "F' it, I am already started, let me finish and if it sucks I will go again..." and I didn't even have to. Amazed.

Stephen


----------



## Sirrus

bigaudiofanatic said:


> I am having some difficulty understanding what settings to use while setting up a new system.
> 
> Audison 5.1k amp
> JBL MS-8
> Kenwood 9980 head unit
> Hertz Mile ML 280 tweeters
> Hertz ML 1600 woofers
> (optional) Hertz Crossover
> 
> The problem I am seeing is, you are suppose to keep the JBL at -21db if using a external amp source.
> 
> By doing this the volume output I am getting is lowered than if i were to just plug the rca's directly into the amp.
> 
> Also the slope and Xover as this is a new setup and not familiar to what to run these speakers at.
> 
> The tweeters are being ran off axis


There's a difference between volume during calibration and while listening to music. Calibration is supposed to be around -40 with external amp(s). Durring listening you either use the MS-8 as a volume control and keep the head unit fixed under it's distortion point OR keep the MS-8 fixed somewhere under -9 db and use the head unit's volume control. I keep mine at -12 db to give me a little extra processing head room, but -21 db sounds excessive to me.


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

Here is what I have so far

Tweeters set to 45 HZ at 6db/oct "sounds not filled in"

Woofers set Lo/Hi Xover 80Hz "clipping at higher volumes" with 6 db/oct

Woofers at 100Hz and 12 db/oct still clipping.

Where do I need to go from here? Anyone?


----------



## subwoofery

bigaudiofanatic said:


> Here is what I have so far
> 
> *Tweeters set to 45 HZ at 6db/oct "sounds not filled in"*
> 
> Woofers set Lo/Hi Xover 80Hz "clipping at higher volumes" with 6 db/oct
> 
> Woofers at 100Hz and 12 db/oct still clipping.
> 
> Where do I need to go from here? Anyone?


Are you sure this is correct? 

Kelvin


----------



## quietfly

i'd love tweeters that i could cross over at45Hz......


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

subwoofery said:


> Are you sure this is correct?
> 
> Kelvin


Yes pretty sure why? I am asking for help tuning if someone can just give me some levels to start at I would know where to go.


----------



## kaigoss69

bigaudiofanatic said:


> Here is what I have so far
> 
> Tweeters set to 45 HZ at 6db/oct "sounds not filled in"
> 
> Woofers set Lo/Hi Xover 80Hz "clipping at higher volumes" with 6 db/oct
> 
> Woofers at 100Hz and 12 db/oct still clipping.
> 
> Where do I need to go from here? Anyone?


Wow, OK..

Tweeters should be high-passed somewhere around 30*00* - 40*00* Hz. Check the manual and find out what the passive x-over uses and start with that. Make sure you use a cap to protect them from turn-on and off thumps.

Woofers high-passed at around 40 - 60 Hz, depending on how low they can play and how low you want them to play. I would do 60 Hz to start with.

I would try 24dB/oct slopes to begin with.


----------



## theothermike

hp ur woofers around 75 tweeters around 3500 and then what i do is go to my amp and crossover my mids around 3000 which is at 12 to pre slope the mids a little before it meets with the tweeter.

then on my sub i set a crossover around 66 - 68 @ 12 to pre cut the sub before the 18 / 24 db cut at 75.

Hope this makes sense. only works if u have crossovers on your amps


----------



## Sirrus

kaigoss69 said:


> Wow, OK..
> 
> Tweeters should be high-passed somewhere around 30*00* - 40*00* Hz. Check the manual and find out what the passive x-over uses and start with that. Make sure you use a cap to protect them from turn-on and off thumps.
> 
> Woofers high-passed at around 40 - 60 Hz, depending on how low they can play and how low you want them to play. I would do 60 Hz to start with.
> 
> I would try 24dB/oct slopes to begin with.


Factory crossover is 2500 Hz:
http://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/Doc/Hertz_Mille_TechSheet_MLK_2_TW.pdf


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

So if I have no mids after doing this would I increase the oct or decrease Hz? It does ask where I want the subsonic filter to be as well should that be 60-80Hz?


----------



## mworx

Thank you to everyone who gave advice on my posting here!!


----------



## Lanson

I'd also like to add a few links here to help.

Understanding Sound
Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network

These will help you know what frequency range deals with what issues, and how best to EQ them.


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

mworx said:


> I'm new to this thread but I'll be installing one in a toyota tacoma with the follwing set up and wanted to know if it's necessary for a center speaker.
> 
> 1-pair of Phass DTM25 tweeters
> 1-pair of PHASS MD0796 6.5" Midbass
> 1-pair of PHASS coaxs on the rear door
> 1-pair of DLS RW12 12" subs 2ohm vc's running mono
> 1-Kenwood DNX9980HD
> 1-PHASS TP 4.75 4ch amp powering the mids and tweeters active
> 1-DLS XD10 790 watt mono amp for subs
> 1- JBL MS8 utlizing the amp to power the rears.
> 
> Please advise if the will be any issues on this setup.
> 
> Thanks,


Only if you feel that your stage image will be enhanced by adding a center. Otherwise I do not see the need for it.


----------



## rdv

bigaudiofanatic said:


> Here is what I have so far
> 
> Tweeters set to 45 HZ at 6db/oct "sounds not filled in"
> 
> Woofers set Lo/Hi Xover 80Hz "clipping at higher volumes" with 6 db/oct
> 
> Woofers at 100Hz and 12 db/oct still clipping.
> 
> Where do I need to go from here? Anyone?


If you'll notice the ms8 has default values when selecting crossover points. I would start there. I cant remember the order that the ms8 asks you to enter your crossover points but if i remember right its subsonic first. now i also cant remember if it asks for a value if you dont have a sub. 

next is the cut off between sub and woofer - 80hz 24db. since you dont have a sub you can try a lower value like 60 or even lower. just listen if your woofer can take it. next is the cut off between mids and tweets. i think its at 3500hz 24db. that should be all you need unless you have rear speakers. 

not sure what you mean by clipping? distortion? you also mentioned that you have no mids? i would also try to make sure that all outputs and speakers are wired correctly.


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

Ok one thing I did notice is my amp was set to "grab signal from signal A" Even after that I got on the phone with JBL.

Did the fallowing 

Sub None
Hi pass 40Hz 12db slope
Front/High low 3500 24db slope
Logic 7 off

I am still getting no mids/bass from my woofers. When I turn it up I hear clipping in my woofers even though there is nothing that I can really hear being played.


Also adjusted my gains to 2 volts. What am I missing


----------



## AndyInOC

bigaudiofanatic said:


> Ok one thing I did notice is my amp was set to "grab signal from signal A" Even after that I got on the phone with JBL.
> 
> Did the fallowing
> 
> Sub None
> Hi pass 40Hz 12db slope
> Front/High low 3500 24db slope
> Logic 7 off
> 
> I am still getting no mids/bass from my woofers. When I turn it up I hear clipping in my woofers even though there is nothing that I can really hear being played.
> 
> 
> Also adjusted my gains to 2 volts. What am I missing



Make sure all your outputs are assigned correctly?
Try a different set of outputs?
Check your rca cables to your amp?


----------



## AndyInOC

Oh and the favorite suggestion- reset factory defaults


----------



## Sirrus

bigaudiofanatic said:


> Ok one thing I did notice is my amp was set to "grab signal from signal A" Even after that I got on the phone with JBL.
> 
> Did the fallowing
> 
> Sub None
> Hi pass 40Hz 12db slope
> Front/High low 3500 24db slope
> Logic 7 off
> 
> I am still getting no mids/bass from my woofers. When I turn it up I hear clipping in my woofers even though there is nothing that I can really hear being played.
> 
> 
> Also adjusted my gains to 2 volts. What am I missing


After calibration, are you turning the MS-8 volume back up to about -9 db?


----------



## sniper5431

have you checked the phases of your speakers. I had a similar issue and ones polarity had been reversed. Check the outputs are numbered correctly. Numbering system is a bit different than you may think it is.


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

sniper5431 said:


> have you checked the phases of your speakers. I had a similar issue and ones polarity had been reversed





Sirrus said:


> After calibration, are you turning the MS-8 volume back up to about -9 db?





AndyInOC said:


> Make sure all your outputs are assigned correctly?
> Try a different set of outputs?
> Check your rca cables to your amp?


Phase is ok.

Volume was not the problems.

Considering at one point I had good mid bass and all I do not think it is a wiring problem and I do have the correct inputs and outputs.


----------



## jhnkvn

I have my head unit at volume 24 while my "high" level indicator/clipping is at volume 28. However, on some tracks I feel I still need to raise the volume a bit, *would reducing the MS8 volume from -7db to -0db be okay?* or would it start producing distortion?


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

sniper5431 said:


> have you checked the phases of your speakers. I had a similar issue and ones polarity had been reversed. Check the outputs are numbered correctly. Numbering system is a bit different than you may think it is.




Bump the question.


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

Found out I had rca's switched. 

Bass is a bit much for the slopes JBL, however that should change when I get the sub and add that in correct?


----------



## AndyInOC

bigaudiofanatic said:


> Found out I had rca's switched.
> 
> Bass is a bit much for the slopes JBL, however that should change when I get the sub and add that in correct?



With the current tuning algorithm that the ms8 uses adding the sub can sometimes provide a new set of issues when tuning, but it seems people are finding more and more creative ways to combat it while Andy and JBL work on a new tune formula. Like many other people here I had some super sub heavy tunes but as of right now I'm pretty happy with it overall. The option of "reset factory defaults" is definitely a friend of mine


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

I will try that, so with things set should I redo the setup or mess with the EQ to lower the tweeters as they seem a bit bright right now? 

Thank you all for your help.


----------



## rdv

bigaudiofanatic said:


> I will try that, so with things set should I redo the setup or mess with the EQ to lower the tweeters as they seem a bit bright right now?
> 
> Thank you all for your help.


i would redo the setup. with the rca's switched during calibration the ms8 auto tune will definitely be wrong. EQ'ing might help make it sound better but it wont be a fix. as for input/output and crossover setup, you shouldnt need to if you are now sure of the wiring and speaker assignments but since it doesn't really take that long, and just to be safe, I would just redo the whole thing - input/output and calibration.


----------



## Lanson

Take notes and photos as you go through your install, label all pieces of it as you go and double-triple check it all.

I had 60 solder connections to mate the ms8 to my stock system, and my system had weak bass at first as well. I ended up pulling it all apart and I checked each and every connection I made to verify I was correct. It turned out I was correct and it was just an EQ, crossover slope, and levels thing but it could have easily not been. 

BTW, despite what is often suggested regarding slopes, I had better results with 12db/oct on my mid to sub cross point, and 24 at the mid to tweeter point. Interesting but it worked well for me, along with a bit of quick and dirty EQ work in the midbass region.


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

rdv said:


> i would redo the setup. with the rca's switched during calibration the ms8 auto tune will definitely be wrong. EQ'ing might help make it sound better but it wont be a fix. as for input/output and crossover setup, you shouldnt need to if you are now sure of the wiring and speaker assignments but since it doesn't really take that long, and just to be safe, I would just redo the whole thing - input/output and calibration.


After the correcting and calibrating the tweeters are a tad bright and the bass may want to be lower "may just turn gain down a bit"

Now what should I change the slope or crossover for the tweeters?


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

fourthmeal said:


> Take notes and photos as you go through your install, label all pieces of it as you go and double-triple check it all.
> 
> I had 60 solder connections to mate the ms8 to my stock system, and my system had weak bass at first as well. I ended up pulling it all apart and I checked each and every connection I made to verify I was correct. It turned out I was correct and it was just an EQ, crossover slope, and levels thing but it could have easily not been.
> 
> BTW, despite what is often suggested regarding slopes, I had better results with 12db/oct on my mid to sub cross point, and 24 at the mid to tweeter point. Interesting but it worked well for me, along with a bit of quick and dirty EQ work in the midbass region.


Awesome! What car did you do this in a Ford?


----------



## Lanson

Yep that's my Ford Flex, with the sony surround 11 speaker getup. Currently the Ms8 is piped to just the stock speakers + my subs in the spare tire well.


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

fourthmeal said:


> Yep that's my Ford Flex, with the sony surround 11 speaker getup. Currently the Ms8 is piped to just the stock speakers + my subs in the spare tire well.


Awesome, seems that I will be recommending this unit over the re-q5 I have been if people have the budget for it.


----------



## Lanson

bigaudiofanatic said:


> Awesome, seems that I will be recommending this unit over the re-q5 I have been if people have the budget for it.



Its actually bittersweet...there are many units purchased and then up for sale at great prices used because of issues with them, but most times the issues are install-related. I'm not hacking on anybody's work but we must face facts. It is a very DIY-friendly, auto-tuning device but connecting to any factory or aftermarket stuff with 8 channels of signal can be a challenge. 

I will say this though...it does seem to do something weird with the midbass. The "Kaigoss mod" as I'm sure it will become known may end up being the solution. When I get past the stage I'm at (currently using all MS8 internal amps), and on to some real amp power, I'll be able to test his theory.


----------



## an2ny888

hopefully there will be a software update to resolve the midbass issue


----------



## ecbmxer

If running an MS8 with a 2way active front stage, subs, and rear speakers, what would be the optimal type of speaker for the rear? I mean, what frequency bandwidth does the MS8 primarily send to the rear? Would just a midbass driver capable of up to 5kHz be best, or maybe some inexpensive wideband driver? Does it even send midbass or high frequency content back there?


----------



## nineball

an2ny888 said:


> hopefully there will be a software update to resolve the midbass issue



i've never had a problem with mid bass output on my system. i'd suggest you check, re-check and double re-check everything in your system. as 4th said with so many connections it is quite easy to get one wrong.


----------



## taibanl

For everyone saying "check connections" to fix the midbass issue--stop. That dead horse has been beaten many times. The ms-8 is quite clearly inducing the midbass hole problem.


----------



## 14642

taibanl said:


> For everyone saying "check connections" to fix the midbass issue--stop. That dead horse has been beaten many times. The ms-8 is quite clearly inducing the midbass hole problem.


At least make sure that the front midbass speakers are in proper polarity and try bothpolarities on the sub. we're working on it...


----------



## kapone

Andy, did you get a chance to look at my post here (with a question)?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1355311-post5708.html

Thanks in advance. (My hats off to you and Adam btw, for the most amazing CS I have ever seen).


----------



## taibanl

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> At least make sure that the front midbass speakers are in proper polarity and try bothpolarities on the sub. w*e're working on it...*


Finally! - This is music to my ears! Thanks Andy. Would you mind speculating on an ETA (even if its a guess); I'm seriously thinking about returning but this is the only reason I would.


----------



## jfkaiser

Hi Andy, THANK YOU for all the great info on the MS-8 threads. I was the one who found and posted the links to the JBL Bluetooth echo workaround with remapping the mute button to be a DEFEAT function of delay and processing. http://ms8-eu.jbl.com/installation.html
Question: I am a computer tech and am unable to get Win 7 to be able to use/start the driver for USBXpress - MS8 even after multiple PCs and updated drivers from SciLabs.
What am I missing here? Win7 reports that the driver cannot be started as soon as the MS-8 is plugged in. I would REALLY like to take advantage of the remap of the mute button. I am about ready to go install Win95 or XP on a laptop just to see if that's the issue!!!! Please no! Anyway just after your thoughts on getting the MS-8 to talk properly to Windows 7 Thx, Jon


----------



## Lanson

It is true that the MS8 does something to midbass but EQ'ing it back in and using shallower slopes between the sub and midbass seems to be effective (at least for me)


----------



## subwoofery

It has been said previously that if you listen to a high-end Home Audio setup, the amount of midbass is actually much lower than you would expect. 

The MS-8 does it's job, however we might not be used to hear what midbass really should sound like... 

Kelvin


----------



## Lanson

subwoofery said:


> It has been said previously that if you listen to a high-end Home Audio setup, the amount of midbass is actually much lower than you would expect.
> 
> The MS-8 does it's job, however we might not be used to hear what midbass really should sound like...
> 
> Kelvin


Well there's a reason most graphic EQ's usually ended up looking like a smiley face. Most people like it.


----------



## subwoofery

fourthmeal said:


> Well there's a reason most graphic EQ's usually ended up looking like a smiley face. Most people like it.












From 90Hz and up, this is pretty much what my RTA looks like... 

Kelvin


----------



## IBcivic

an2ny888 said:


> hopefully there will be a software update to resolve the midbass issue


What mid-bass issue I'd look for an out of phase woofer, carefully go over your set-up connections and make sure that you are not getting any cancellation from flexing body panels.


----------



## quality_sound

subwoofery said:


> It has been said previously that if you listen to a high-end Home Audio setup, the amount of midbass is actually much lower than you would expect.
> 
> The MS-8 does it's job, however we might not be used to hear what midbass really should sound like...
> 
> Kelvin


High end home setups like that because the owners have never heard live music. Live music has a crap-ton of midbass and top end. BOTH are pushed WAY down in most "high-end" home setups.


----------



## Briznow

quality_sound said:


> High end home setups like that because the owners have never heard live music. Live music has a crap-ton of midbass and top end. BOTH are pushed WAY down in most "high-end" home setups.


What a band sounds like live and what ends up on wax are two very different things, though. It's not the home setups that are falling short of reproducing what's on the record, it's the record that's falling short of reproducing the live sound. And to say the recording is falling short probably isn't even fair, since it very well may not have been the producer/engineer/band's intention for it to sound as "hot" as a live setup. So you have to ask yourself if you're going for fidelity to the source, or if you're trying to make a recording sound like a live band. Of course there's nothing wrong with that (who am I or anyone else to tell you how you want your music to sound?), but it's not necessarily the MS-8's fault.


----------



## subwoofery

quality_sound said:


> High end home setups like that because the owners have never heard live music. Live music has a crap-ton of midbass and top end. BOTH are pushed WAY down in most "high-end" home setups.


Never said Home Audio was supposed to be perfect  

When describing a soundstage, I like to use Live concerts as an example... however, not all Live concerts have overpowering midbasses. 
I remember my Phil Collins concert where midbass wasn't pushed to the limit yet sounded powerful. Up to 3 drums for a couple of songs too. 

Car Audio is fun coz bass is easier to achive. 

Kelvin


----------



## 14642

If it's the snappy midbass that's missing, then look at higher frequencies--1kHz, for example. There's a big difference between the dynamic range that's possible with a 1000 watt amplifier driving a compression driver loaded into a horn thats pointed directly at you with the whole chain being driven by a microphone that's a foot from the drum set and a 6" speaker in the door of a car driven by a 100 watt amplifier from a CD on which the mix has been squashed to a meager 6dB crest factor. If it's midbass MAGNITUDE that's missing, you can put that in with an EQ. If it's dynamics that are missing, MS-8 doesn't squash those. The recording engineer does because the band is in the studio during the postprocessing screaming, "Make it louder! I want it to sound like it's turned up to eleven!" 

I'm not saying MS-8 always tunes he way it's supposed to. I am saying that there's nothing inherent in the processor that eliminates dynamics. 

Almost every time I go to a show here in LA, I'm disgusted by the mix-so much 60Hz "bloom" that the vocals are unintelligible. It's a sad state of affairs. For some reason, that doesn't happen in New York. Saw Ray LaMontagne at Radio City and it was the highest-fidelity thing I've ever heard. JBL Vertec Array and a bunch of processing. See first paragraph above.


----------



## an2ny888

any tips on what freq bands to boost to add midbass magnitude?


----------



## 60ndown

an2ny888 said:


> any tips on what freq bands to boost to add midbass magnitude?


70-300hz lower

300-700 upper


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy,

while you're looking at the midbass output problem, I would also like to add that in my car the output from the left side (when calibrating without a sub) is nice and strong, but the woofer on the right side barely does anything. I actually posted some graphs about this a few months back. I'm not sure if this is a separate issue, or could it be the main problem, i.e. only one of the midbass drivers is playing with any kind of authority, and therefore the overall midbass level is too low?

For what it's worth, I am using 10" Morels under the seats, with 150W per side. I know that you said the problem becomes worse the larger the midbass drivers...

Perhaps the processor decides to distribute power to the woofers in that fashion in order to keep a flat and balanced response at the listening position (driver), but what if we didn't want that (at least not in the lower midbass region)?! What if we wanted maximum output for the sub and midbass, while keeping everything above say 200Hz unchanged???

Anyway, thanks for looking into this. Happy 4th everyone!


----------



## Wheres The Butta

Briznow said:


> What a band sounds like live and what ends up on wax are two very different things, though. It's not the home setups that are falling short of reproducing what's on the record, it's the record that's falling short of reproducing the live sound. And to say the recording is falling short probably isn't even fair, since it very well may not have been the producer/engineer/band's intention for it to sound as "hot" as a live setup. So you have to ask yourself if you're going for fidelity to the source, or if you're trying to make a recording sound like a live band. Of course there's nothing wrong with that (who am I or anyone else to tell you how you want your music to sound?), but it's not necessarily the MS-8's fault.


holy crap I think that's the problem right there. 

Just speaking for myself, I always wanted my car to sound more like a live performance.... but I was playing material mixed in a studio! duh! facepalm! lol 

anyway, just an update. I got my car operational... I now have a full 5.1 setup with logic 7 processing and it is astounding how it sounds less like a cramped car and more like a larger room. I think I need to re-calibrate since the center isn't as defined as I expected, but the sense of spaciousness is really amazing - it is incredibly immersive.


----------



## rdv

bigaudiofanatic said:


> After the correcting and calibrating the tweeters are a tad bright and the bass may want to be lower "may just turn gain down a bit"
> 
> Now what should I change the slope or crossover for the tweeters?


Sorry didn't see this right away. Where is your tweeter cut-off/slope set at now? If it's already set at the lower end of your tweeter's limit, maybe raising it might help? But if you are now sure of your connections and channel assignments/xover points, you can try EQ as a fix before redoing the setup, try lowering the Treble using the Tone Control first and listen for its effect. 

I dont think I've ever really encountered strong treble in my auto-tunes at least not to the point where I wanted to lower the tweeter level. I recently tried a new tweeter and do find the treble is stronger now but not by much and it actually sounds clearer this way.

If I recall correctly, Andy posted something about treble being affected by how much you turn your head during the 'look at your side mirror' calibration but I can't remember exactly what happens.


----------



## BuickGN

I think I'm finally done screwing with the MS8. It makes my expensive stereo sound lifeless and dull. The comps and subs sounded better right out of the box on the passives with no EQ. The final nail in the coffin was doing a tune yesterday which turned out to be a horrible tune and the remote stopped working so I'm stuck with pure **** for who knows how long. So long MS8 and good riddance.


----------



## DAT

*JBL MS 8 Audio disc* - only works if you have a MS 8. some of the untis came with a blank CD.

MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service


----------



## akelu

Help!

I'm not getting anything through the on-board amplifier..

I'm connecting two of the channels to a jbl p6462 2 ohm 50wrms plate speaker.

During the calibration speaker test no volume comes through, if i unplug the speaker harness and plug in rca's into those channel it comes through.

I tried using both the input and output harness to see if that was faulty.

I tried multiple channels on both

I also am using the correct harness port (speaker output)

I plugged these speakers into an amp and powered through RCA they work fine.

Any ideas??


----------



## 14642

Need a replacement. Sounds like the internal amp is defective.


----------



## instalher

the true measure of music is the energy that a live show can give you and no recording, mixing or speaker can ever reproduce that.. So lets try to make our cars listening experience the best it can be and realize that it will never be perfect. The ms-8 is one hell of great set and forget system good for most people, perfect no good .. very.. lets remember that when buying and installing this unit..


----------



## Vitty

Anyone know where to get just the remote? Mine seems to have wandered off and now I am stuck with barely audible music


----------



## rdv

Vitty said:


> Anyone know where to get just the remote? Mine seems to have wandered off and now I am stuck with barely audible music


they're now selling it at the harman store 

HarmanAudio.com - Official Online Store of Harman Kardon, JBL, Infinity & AKG

the description makes you wonder though if they are selling the remote or the battery (or both?)


----------



## Vitty

Anyone else really have to turn the gain up when NOT running their subs through the MS-8 but rather running them off the front lows via their amp passthrough or other means? I find I have to turn my gain up a lot higher than when I calibrate the subs via the MS-8. However, when I have the subs hooked to the MS-8 directly my tune is terrible. I get a way way way better tune without the subs in the equation. I just have to turn my gain up so high then.


----------



## One Kool Cat

Hello All, Im going to be installing an ms8 in my 2010 camaro. I have a harness that takes the high level outputs and converts them to front and rear rcas. So Im going to use the front r+l channels for the ms8 inputs. I have 3 questions.

Stock amp and speakers are all being replaced. 4ch bridged to front components (may run active if I get the cojones, afraid its too much tuning all at once for me, will run extra speaker wire to doors so I can easily change in future if I decide). Rear speakers run off internal ms8 amp. Sub and dedicated amp. 

1) How can I tell if they are full range signals coming out of the harness? I assume they would be, but Im not positive.

2) Ive seen Andy talk about many new GM head units attenuating bass at higher volumes. How do I know if mine does this? And if it does how do I correct it?

3) In the manual it says to skip input setup if using an aftermarket head unit. Mines OE head, but Im using rcas so should I still perform input setup with the cd?

Appreciate any help.


----------



## Lanson

I would throw away the harness, and run a direct signal into the ms8. It'll take it. Remember that the ms8 will sum the signal and redistribute it in Logic7 once it has a clean stereo signal.


----------



## taibanl

Vitty said:


> Anyone else really have to turn the gain up when NOT running their subs through the MS-8 but rather running them off the front lows via their amp passthrough or other means? I find I have to turn my gain up a lot higher than when I calibrate the subs via the MS-8. However, when I have the subs hooked to the MS-8 directly my tune is terrible. I get a way way way better tune without the subs in the equation. I just have to turn my gain up so high then.


I guess jbl is too busy pushing out new products (ms-2) to fix this tuning issue. Sounds like you are confirming what kaigoss says that the ms-8 will not tune the low end properly and you have to trick-f¥<# the system by wiring in wight the fronts. If you ask me this totally defeats the purpose of their system


----------



## Vitty

starting to wonder what good an update port is for when there are no updates being put out


----------



## emoon3

Vitty said:


> Anyone else really have to turn the gain up when NOT running their subs through the MS-8 but rather running them off the front lows via their amp passthrough or other means? I find I have to turn my gain up a lot higher than when I calibrate the subs via the MS-8. However, when I have the subs hooked to the MS-8 directly my tune is terrible. I get a way way way better tune without the subs in the equation. I just have to turn my gain up so high then.


I get the same thing. (Both of these actually).

I was underpowering my system a bit anyway so I just added some more power. But definitely, I find I have to crank the gains to get good output.


----------



## Lanson

Vitty said:


> starting to wonder what good an update port is for when there are no updates being put out


I think there was an update for bluetooth reasons.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

After a competition this past weekend, the judge told me my bass was a bit weak and the transition from mid to sub bass needed fixing. After 3.5 hours of trying to fix it with the MS-8 eq this morning, I simply could NOT get the sub-bass to midbass transition to sound right, so I took a suggestion from you guys and stopped using the MS-8 sub output. 

Instead, I installed my old PPI FRX-322 and used it to split the lows AFTER the MS-8 between my 6.5" door speakers and my substage. I played around with crossover points and ended up with 50hz.

It sounds like a totally different car. The bass is more tonally balanced and the midbass presence is well defined, with the bass much more up-front than before. I can't wait for the judge to hear it in pottsville =)


----------



## tintbox

Wheres The Butta said:


> After a competition this past weekend, the judge told me my bass was a bit weak and the transition from mid to sub bass needed fixing. After 3.5 hours of trying to fix it with the MS-8 eq this morning, I simply could NOT get the sub-bass to midbass transition to sound right, so I took a suggestion from you guys and stopped using the MS-8 sub output.
> 
> Instead, I installed my old PPI FRX-322 and used it to split the lows AFTER the MS-8 between my 6.5" door speakers and my substage. I played around with crossover points and ended up with 50hz.
> 
> It sounds like a totally different car. The bass is more tonally balanced and the midbass presence is well defined, with the bass much more up-front than before. I can't wait for the judge to hear it in pottsville =)



Right on. Hopefully I can take a listen this time.


----------



## kaigoss69

emoon3 said:


> I get the same thing. (Both of these actually).
> 
> I was underpowering my system a bit anyway so I just added some more power. But definitely, I find I have to crank the gains to get good output.


Same here. But remember that the amp gain control is there to match the input level of the signal coming in. As long as the noise floor of the input signal is low, and the S/N ratio of the amp is relatively high, you will not have any issues. Obviously, the more output power the amp has, the less you will have to "crank" that gain!


----------



## rdv

Wheres The Butta said:


> After a competition this past weekend, the judge told me my bass was a bit weak and the transition from mid to sub bass needed fixing. After 3.5 hours of trying to fix it with the MS-8 eq this morning, I simply could NOT get the sub-bass to midbass transition to sound right, so I took a suggestion from you guys and stopped using the MS-8 sub output.
> 
> Instead, I installed my old PPI FRX-322 and used it to split the lows AFTER the MS-8 between my 6.5" door speakers and my substage. I played around with crossover points and ended up with 50hz.
> 
> It sounds like a totally different car. The bass is more tonally balanced and the midbass presence is well defined, with the bass much more up-front than before. I can't wait for the judge to hear it in pottsville =)


interesting to hear this. i can try this since my door woofers and sub share a 4 channel amp. i can just disconnect the sub output and redo the setup without the sub channels. its not that im dissatisfied with the way it sounds now but if it works out i will have a 2 extra ms8 channels to play around with - i can do an active front 3 way. i am not using a center channel right now and my mids and tweets are passively crossed


----------



## One Kool Cat

One Kool Cat said:


> Hello All, Im going to be installing an ms8 in my 2010 camaro. I have a harness that takes the high level outputs and converts them to front and rear rcas. So Im going to use the front r+l channels for the ms8 inputs. I have 3 questions.
> 
> Stock amp and speakers are all being replaced. 4ch bridged to front components (may run active if I get the cojones, afraid its too much tuning all at once for me, will run extra speaker wire to doors so I can easily change in future if I decide). Rear speakers run off internal ms8 amp. Sub and dedicated amp.
> 
> 1) How can I tell if they are full range signals coming out of the harness? I assume they would be, but Im not positive.
> 
> 2) Ive seen Andy talk about many new GM head units attenuating bass at higher volumes. How do I know if mine does this? And if it does how do I correct it?
> 
> 3) In the manual it says to skip input setup if using an aftermarket head unit. Mines OE head, but Im using rcas so should I still perform input setup with the cd?
> 
> Appreciate any help.





fourthmeal said:


> I would throw away the harness, and run a direct signal into the ms8. It'll take it. Remember that the ms8 will sum the signal and redistribute it in Logic7 once it has a clean stereo signal.


fourthmeal,

I know I could run the high level inputs but the harness cost me $55 and Id rather not cut up the vehicle harness if I dont have to. 

Thanks for the input.

Anyone else have any ideas?


----------



## brianhj

rdv said:


> interesting to hear this. i can try this since my door woofers and sub share a 4 channel amp. i can just disconnect the sub output and redo the setup without the sub channels. its not that im dissatisfied with the way it sounds now but if it works out i will have a 2 extra ms8 channels to play around with - i can do an active front 3 way. i am not using a center channel right now and my mids and tweets are passively crossed


won't the rest of your sound be delayed by the ms-8 processing? will that screw with time alignment?


----------



## rdv

brianhj said:


> won't the rest of your sound be delayed by the ms-8 processing? will that screw with time alignment?


actually i think it will be the sub thats delayed because of the delay the ms8 applies to the right and left door woofers plus the physical distance of the sub to the driver (its located at the back of the car). 

with the standard hook up, the ms8 doesnt apply any delay to the sub channels. 

aside from time time delay each woofer has its own equalization as well so thats something else to consider. i only have 1 sub so i will be effectively merging the left and right channels to one sub. 

i cant really imagine the effect so the only way to know would be to try it. i think it would be worth the effort just to hear how it sounds. it might or might not work. its really easy for me to experiment because of the way my system is hooked up.


----------



## brianhj

rdv said:


> actually i think it will be the sub thats delayed because of the delay the ms8 applies to the right and left door woofers plus the physical distance of the sub to the driver (its located at the back of the car).
> 
> with the standard hook up, the ms8 doesnt apply any delay to the sub channels.
> 
> aside from time time delay each woofer has its own equalization as well so thats something else to consider. i only have 1 sub so i will be effectively merging the left and right channels to one sub.
> 
> i cant really imagine the effect so the only way to know would be to try it. i think it would be worth the effort just to hear how it sounds. it might or might not work. its really easy for me to experiment because of the way my system is hooked up.


no i'm talking about the delay as a result of the time it takes the ms-8 to process signals. signals passing through the ms-8 take time to process. signals not passing through the ms-8 don't take time to process. won't that make them out of sync slightly? and screw with time alignment?


----------



## rdv

brianhj said:


> no i'm talking about the delay as a result of the time it takes the ms-8 to process signals. signals passing through the ms-8 take time to process. signals not passing through the ms-8 don't take time to process. won't that make them out of sync slightly? and screw with time alignment?


but the sub will still pass through the ms8. the idea is to take the 2 channels from the ms8 intended for the door woofers and connect it to the 4 channel amp that powers the door woofers and a bridged sub. thats why i mentioned the sub being affected by the eq and time delay that the ms8 applied to the door woofers during auto tune.

someone mentioned earlier about connecting a sub directly to the head unit and not let it pass through the ms8 but thats not what i plan to do.


----------



## brianhj

rdv said:


> but the sub will still pass through the ms8. the idea is to take the 2 channels from the ms8 intended for the door woofers and connect it to the 4 channel amp that powers the door woofers and a bridged sub. thats why i mentioned the sub being affected by the eq and time delay that the ms8 applied to the door woofers during auto tune.
> 
> someone mentioned earlier about connecting a sub directly to the head unit and not let it pass through the ms8 but thats not what i plan to do.


ohhhhh i gotcha. sorry i misunderstood.


----------



## silveradoed

Hello all!  Newbie here. I just recently came across this thread yesterday and have been reading through it. I am in dire need of help with my MS-8. I know that that my questions may have been asked multiple times so if I offend anyone I am sorry. The answer to my question is probably somewhere in this thread but as slow as I read it may take me a week to find it. So I decided to just pose the question: I am having problems setting up my configurations for the channels and getting the MS-8 to calibrated. Here are my components as follows:

2008 Silverado Ext. Cab
OEM headunit
JBL MS-8 
JL HD600/4 running 
front Boston Pro 6.5 2-way configuration (tweeter in A pillar & 6.5 in door panel)
rear Boston Pro 6.5 co-ax configuration (full range)
JL HD750/1 running JL 10W6 V2 in closed box


Do I need to run the front tweeter on a seperate channel from the mid-range woofer with its own power (amp or MS-8 amp)? Does the MS-8 compensate for the imaging of the tweeters bouncing the signal off of the front windshield? A little HELP would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## rdv

brianhj said:


> ohhhhh i gotcha. sorry i misunderstood.


no problem


----------



## Vitty

silveradoed said:


> Do I need to run the front tweeter on a seperate channel from the mid-range woofer with its own power (amp or MS-8 amp)? Does the MS-8 compensate for the imaging of the tweeters bouncing the signal off of the front windshield? A little HELP would be greatly appreciated.


You actually have 2 options:

1. Configure the MS-8 for 1 way fronts and then run 1 channel of your amp to the front right passive crossover that came with your Bostons, and another channel to the front left passive crossover. Configure the sides as 1 way as well on the MS-8.

2. Configure the MS-8 for 2 way fronts and then run 1 channel of your amp to the front right mid and another channel of your amp to the front left mid. Run your sides off your amp as well. Run your tweeters off of the MS-8 directly. The only downside to this is that you are going to have to level match the front tweeters and the front mids so that the mids aren't louder than the tweeters or vice versa.

The MS-8 will do its best to image your tweeters off the front windshield. It actually should do a pretty good job of it at that. The only complaint I have is how it integrates my subwoofers with the midbass of my front stage. It can't get it even remotely in the ballpark. Thus, I configure my MS-8 to have no sub and then run an RCA from my front stage amplifier pass through to my sub amp. If you find your bass not quite sounding right, or you have no midbass, try that as well.


----------



## silveradoed

Vitty said:


> You actually have 2 options:
> 
> 1. Configure the MS-8 for 1 way fronts and then run 1 channel of your amp to the front right passive crossover that came with your Bostons, and another channel to the front left passive crossover. Configure the sides as 1 way as well on the MS-8.
> 
> 2. Configure the MS-8 for 2 way fronts and then run 1 channel of your amp to the front right mid and another channel of your amp to the front left mid. Run your sides off your amp as well. Run your tweeters off of the MS-8 directly. The only downside to this is that you are going to have to level match the front tweeters and the front mids so that the mids aren't louder than the tweeters or vice versa.
> 
> The MS-8 will do its best to image your tweeters off the front windshield. It actually should do a pretty good job of it at that. The only complaint I have is how it integrates my subwoofers with the midbass of my front stage. It can't get it even remotely in the ballpark. Thus, I configure my MS-8 to have no sub and then run an RCA from my front stage amplifier pass through to my sub amp. If you find your bass not quite sounding right, or you have no midbass, try that as well.



Hello Vitty, thanks for the info. I have tried your second configuration and had some bad distoration in the tweeters the high the volume got. If I run the front in a one-way config, I dont get any mid-bass just all highs. Any suggestion what I'm doing wrong?


----------



## rain27

kaigoss69 said:


> Some people have reported a lack of midbass when using a trunk sub. This has been an issue especially in BMWs with the midbass drivers under the seats. If you calibrate without a sub, and let the woofers play all the way down, the midbass is great, but as soon as you add the sub into the mix, the midbass just disappears. It can be helped with the EQ, but not to the level of impact of the "no sub" calibration, not even close.
> 
> After having read about the lack of sub T/A recently, and Andy's explanation that it really is not that important, I had an idea. What if I calibrated without the sub, and then added it back in post calibration, using the crossovers in my amp? So I went out this morning for this little experiment. I set the subsonic at 20Hz on the underseat 8" woofers and calibrated without a sub. I then split the signal at the 4-ch amp and high-passed the underseats at 50Hz 24dB/oct and low-passed the sub at 50Hz, 12db/Oct.
> 
> The result? - Fantastic midbass and stellar subbass, the best of both worlds!


Are you saying you did the calibration with only the infrasonic filter at 20hz? You didn't set the crossovers between the sub and midbass at 50hz until after the sweeps? The sweeps were done with the midbass playing from 20hz and up? Just want to make sure.


----------



## kaigoss69

rain27 said:


> Are you saying you did the calibration with only the infrasonic filter at 20hz? You didn't set the crossovers between the sub and midbass at 50hz until after the sweeps? The sweeps were done with the midbass playing from 20hz and up? Just want to make sure.


Yes, just let the midbass sweep all the way down to the subsonic, sub not connected. Then afterwards, split the signal at the amp.


----------



## Sirrus

kaigoss69 said:


> Yes, just let the midbass sweep all the way down to the subsonic, sub not connected. Then afterwards, split the signal at the amp.


Hey Kaigoss, I'm curious why you didn't split the signal first and then do your calibration. It seems to me that the way you do it would leave the auto-eq from 20-50 Hz in a worthless state.

I tried it this way (split first, then calibrate) and I've been listening to the results for a few days. I've done a lot of boosting of the bass (+4 bass, +5 sub) and the midbass sounds pretty good, but my low end bass is missing something. I was waiting for my ears to get used to it (as opposed to the +sub setup which is boosted like crazy), but I'm realizing that I'm still missing something.

Two good reference tracks:
Black Keys - Howlin' For You
Counting Crows - Omaha

At this point I'm not sure if it's an inherent problem with this approach or something with my setup. Maybe Kaigoss or someone else can confirm?


----------



## kaigoss69

Sirrus said:


> Hey Kaigoss, I'm curious why you didn't split the signal first and then do your calibration. It seems to me that the way you do it would leave the auto-eq from 20-50 Hz in a worthless state.
> 
> I tried it this way (split first, then calibrate) and I've been listening to the results for a few days. I've done a lot of boosting of the bass (+4 bass, +5 sub) and the midbass sounds pretty good, but my low end bass is missing something. I was waiting for my ears to get used to it (as opposed to the +sub setup which is boosted like crazy), but I'm realizing that I'm still missing something.
> 
> Two good reference tracks:
> Black Keys - Howlin' For You
> Counting Crows - Omaha
> 
> At this point I'm not sure if it's an inherent problem with this approach or something with my setup. Maybe Kaigoss or someone else can confirm?


Hey Sirrus,

if you have to listen to it for a few days to get used to it, then it ain't no good!  

The lack of midbass problem, I believe, is somehow caused by the sub sweep either being too peaky or not being on the same volume level with the midbass sweeps, or both. I believe there may simply not be enough EQ headroom available to adjust between the peaks of one and the valleys of the other, if that makes sense, so the results get screwed-up somehow.

The midbass drivers, being mounted IB in most cases, don't produce any significant peaks in the subbass range, so the processor has an easier time to make the necessary corrections. 

Also, keep in mind that MS-8 "wants" to give you a fairly flat tune, which it apparently does with the midbass playing all the way down. If the sweeps are too loud or too peaky, it just ends up cutting too much. Since most of us prefer a bump in the lower midbass and subbass range, this trick seems to work well.


----------



## rdv

silveradoed said:


> Hello Vitty, thanks for the info. I have tried your second configuration and had some bad distoration in the tweeters the high the volume got. If I run the front in a one-way config, I dont get any mid-bass just all highs. Any suggestion what I'm doing wrong?


i am using that config, tweets powered by the ms8 and door woofers powered by an amp. did you select the right crossover point for the tweeter? there isnt much power coming off the ms8 so my first guess would be to check your cut off


----------



## taibanl

And yet... No words from Andy....disappointing


----------



## Wheres The Butta

taibanl said:


> And yet... No words from Andy....disappointing


just remember, he's a human being.

he takes vacations, gets sick, and has other various commitments just like everybody else.


----------



## Babs

Only spent like 4 yrs answering to the world about the MS-8 before the thing came out, on several forums. If I where him I'd be hard pressed not to say 
"ok boys, it's out finally, support #'s in the book, manual's on the website if you lose or spill coffee on it, search key is at the top of the forum page... See ya! Peace!"
So if Andy does chime in at all or any, I'd consider it above and beyond.


----------



## BuickGN

Babs said:


> Only spent like 4 yrs answering to the world about the MS-8 before the thing came out, on several forums. If I where him I'd be hard pressed not to say
> "ok boys, it's out finally, support #'s in the book, manual's on the website if you lose or spill coffee on it, search key is at the top of the forum page... See ya! Peace!"
> So if Andy does chime in at all or any, I'd consider it above and beyond.


Agreed. On another forum I frequent all I do is answer the exact same questions over and over and over day in and day out. I've been amazed at Andy's patience. I would've flipped out a few times already.


----------



## bassfromspace

Babs said:


> Only spent like 4 yrs answering to the world about the MS-8 before the thing came out, on several forums. If I where him I'd be hard pressed not to say
> "ok boys, it's out finally, support #'s in the book, manual's on the website if you lose or spill coffee on it, search key is at the top of the forum page... See ya! Peace!"
> So if Andy does chime in at all or any, I'd consider it above and beyond.


Agreed, although I think is presence is sorely needed due to the reputation the unit is building for itself. BNIB units are for sale all day long, for way under dealer pricing, and that can't be good.


----------



## 14642

Guys, sorry about the delay and the tardy responses. I've been traveling for two weeks and am currently in Jakarta doing a big MS-Series seminar with Gary. Internet service isn't reliable enough and trying to respond to all of this on a blackberry isn't reasonable. I'll be back next week to help with all of these emergencies.


----------



## subwoofery

taibanl said:


> And yet... No words from Andy....disappointing


Look above my post... pff... stupid :laugh: 
Here's your answer

Kelvin


----------



## an2ny888

Andy, any chance you'll be dropping by the philippines?


----------



## Vitty

Arggggh again nothing but struggles getting my subs and midbass dialed in last night. System sounds great in the high end, but terrible at the bottom of the midrange and below.

I have gain matched all my amp channels so that everything is at the same level prior to calibration including the subwoofer. When I run calibration the MS-8 gives my bass such a boost that it makes my woofers clip. When I don't run the sub through the MS-8 at the same gain setting on my amplifier the subs sound great. Loud, crisp, no clipping. When I run them through the MS-8 they clip before they even get 1/2 as loud as when they are not run through the MS-8. Should I be cranking the gain up on them during calibration even though they are set to the same level as the rest of the speakers or what?? Why is this so hard to set up and get dialed in?


----------



## kaigoss69

Vitty said:


> Arggggh again nothing but struggles getting my subs and midbass dialed in last night. System sounds great in the high end, but terrible at the bottom of the midrange and below.
> 
> I have gain matched all my amp channels so that everything is at the same level prior to calibration including the subwoofer. When I run calibration the MS-8 gives my bass such a boost that it makes my woofers clip. When I don't run the sub through the MS-8 at the same gain setting on my amplifier the subs sound great. Loud, crisp, no clipping. When I run them through the MS-8 they clip before they even get 1/2 as loud as when they are not run through the MS-8. Should I be cranking the gain up on them during calibration even though they are set to the same level as the rest of the speakers or what?? Why is this so hard to set up and get dialed in?


The rule of thumb is to set the sub gain such that the sweep can be heard, but NOT felt. Level matching the sub, in my experience, will result in sweeps that are too loud. Once you have successfully integrated the subs, you are going to hate the midbass though....


----------



## rain27

I've never really had any issues with the midbass in my experience. I did try the kaigoss method to do a comparison, but found that my midbass sounded the same as when using the ordinary sweeps with the sub on.

I am not sure what causes the midbass issue for some, but it is not a universal issue. 

I just wanted to let potential MS-8 owners know that you are not necessarily going to have to go through a long process before getting good sound. For many, it really is as simple as running the auto tune and then being done for the most part.

It is nice to know that there are workarounds if need be, however.


----------



## Vitty

kaigoss69 said:


> The rule of thumb is to set the sub gain such that the sweep can be heard, but NOT felt. Level matching the sub, in my experience, will result in sweeps that are too loud. Once you have successfully integrated the subs, you are going to hate the midbass though....


This is precisely how it was during setup as I have known this tip for a while. As far as midbass, what midbass? I would have to have midbass to hate it haha. I seemingly go from subbass to midrange and have no in between. The subbass is extremely boosted to the point it clips my amps. I have to be doing something wrong.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

Vitty said:


> This is precisely how it was during setup as I have known this tip for a while. As far as midbass, what midbass? I would have to have midbass to hate it haha. I seemingly go from subbass to midrange and have no in between. The subbass is extremely boosted to the point it clips my amps. I have to be doing something wrong.


definitely sounds like you're running the sweeps too loud. run them so that the sweeps are just barely audible, and you're at the right level


----------



## taibanl

subwoofery said:


> Look above my post... pff... stupid :laugh:
> Here's your answer
> 
> Kelvin


I realize it may have sounded as if I was being unreasonably impatient. On the contrary, I was not expecting some immediate reply to my most recent comments. I was disappointed that the last thing we have was something to the effect of "we're looking into it" about a month ago. Which seems to be the same response he gave about four months ago.

I'm merely hoping the visibility of this issue will warrant some sort of priority. Perhaps, something from JBL / Harman that says:
- here's what we know now
- here's what we intend to do, and 
- this is when it could be expected

Mediocrity is sinking companies these days, blackberry for example is a shadow of its former self for not staying attuned to what its customers really wanted, instead resting on its confidence of being the (former) market leader and what it 'thought' customers wanted.

I am not accusing Andy of this attitude, but I AM concerned. Some of his responses evince an attitude that rings to this customer as 'its good enough.' 

Other responses expose a disconnect: In many cases the engineering decisions around this product were "trust us, let the system do all the work." As an example, see the MS-8 suggestions thread. However, when we raise the issue of the MS-8 falling short of being able do "all the work", sometimes, the workarounds seem to be tacitly accepted by Andy as the way to do things, even if such methods defeat a significant portion of the work the MS-8 does.

A few hedges:
1) I am not personally throwing Andy under the bus. I think its phenomenal that he is on here listening to customer concerns. I only hope it translates to results.

2) I do think (at least as a concept) the MS-8 IS THE RIGHT PRODUCT for me, at least as far as what is currently available. I've surveyed other options and this is certainly suiting my needs in this niche. I just need it to work the way it should.


----------



## nineball

taibanl said:


> I realize it may have sounded as if I was being unreasonable impatient. On the contrary, I was not expecting some immediate reply to my most recent comments. I was disappointed that the last thing we have was something to the effect of "we're looking into it" about a month ago. Which seems to be the same response he gave about four months ago.
> 
> I'm merely hoping the visibility of this issue will warrant some sort of priority. Perhaps, something from JBL / Harman that says:
> - here's what we know now
> - here's what we intend to do, and
> - this is when it could be expected
> 
> Mediocrity is sinking companies these days, blackberry for example is a shadow of its former self for not staying attuned to what its customers really wanted, instead resting on its confidence of being the (former) market leader and what it 'thought' customers wanted.
> 
> I am not accusing Andy of this attitude, but I AM concerned. Some of his responses evince an attitude that rings to this customer as 'its good enough.'
> 
> Other responses expose a disconnect: In many cases the engineering decisions around this product were "trust us, let the system do all the work." As an example, see the MS-8 suggestions thread. However, when we raise the issue of the MS-8 falling short of being able do "all the work", sometimes, the workarounds seem to be tacitly accepted by Andy as the way to do things, even if such methods defeat a significant portion of the work the MS-8 does.
> 
> A few hedges:
> 1) I am not personally throwing Andy under the bus. I think its phenomenal that he is on here listening to customer concerns. I only hope it translates to results.
> 
> 2) I do think (at least as a concept) the MS-8 IS THE RIGHT PRODUCT for me, at least as far as what is currently available. I've surveyed other options and this is certainly suiting my needs in this niche. I just need it to work the way it should.


just be thankful for what you have. no other major company (aside from jim @ alpine) frequents these boards to answer questions on their products, and quite frankly i'm fairly certain that was not in andy's job description when he took the position. you should be jumping for joy that you have an avenue other than a generic tech support line operator reading from a manual, even if andy takes 8 months to address your problem it's still more than any other company would do. 

with all the ms-8 can do you accuse the company of mediocrity? are you serious? the damn thing isn't even 2 years old yet and no other processor on the market can do what it can out of the box. sure, some of them can achieve the same results but it won't happen in under a minute of setup time.

not everyone has the "lack of midbass" problem, myself falling into that category. on top of that people have already posted a work-around to correct this so-called problem. i'm sure there is a lot more on andy's plate other than one perceived "glitch" with one product in the vast line of harmon/jbl. they have already addressed the bt echo problem even though there was a simple work-around for that as well.

you have 8 posts in less than 2 months on this board. learn a little patience.


----------



## brocken

nineballs post is a good example of why we have the mediocrity that taibanl mentioned.

There are definitely some issues with level matching in the low frequencies. Everybody may not experience the problem but a significant number of users do.
It's great that we have the MS-8... that doesn't mean it can't be improved.
Even more proof of the problems/idiosyncrasies of the MS-8 is the suggestions by Andy and other how to 'trick' the system when doing the calibration to fix bass or midbass.

The analogy to the decline of Blackberry is great. From the market leader to falling at the back of the pack.
And you know who's leading it? Android. You know why? Partly due to a lot of user input. Open source software with huge forums for discussion and improvement makes a big difference.
Which is how MS-8 could go from being 'good' to 'great'.
Otherwise, the next company will put out something better that fixes all the stuff we've been talking about... then who will buy an MS-8.


----------



## taibanl

nineball said:


> just be thankful for what you have. no other major company (aside from jim @ alpine) frequents these boards to answer questions on their products, and quite frankly i'm fairly certain that was not in andy's job description when he took the position. you should be jumping for joy that you have an avenue other than a generic tech support line operator reading from a manual, even if andy takes 8 months to address your problem it's still more than any other company would do.
> 
> *with all the ms-8 can do you accuse the company of mediocrity?* are you serious? the damn thing isn't even 2 years old yet and no other processor on the market can do what it can out of the box. sure, some of them can achieve the same results but it won't happen in under a minute of setup time.
> 
> not everyone has the "lack of midbass" problem, myself falling into that category. *on top of that people have already posted a work-around to correct this so-called problem*. i'm sure there is a lot more on andy's plate other than one perceived "glitch" with one product in the vast line of harmon/jbl. they have already addressed the bt echo problem even though there was a simple work-around for that as well.
> 
> *you have 8 posts in less than 2 months on this board. learn a little patience.*


1) Yes, Because it professes to do something that it cannot properly do. It is marketed specifically to be a solution to issues like this, and in this case it is the CAUSE of the issue.

2) Again, it is marketed and designed to prevent workarounds. Furthermore, the workarounds posted are not easily achieved in all applications such as mine.

3) I would have zero posts, maybe one to say "Thanks" if I were not having issues. Indeed I am being the proverbial squeaky wheel, but I will also heavily promote products with which I am satisfied.


----------



## nineball

brocken said:


> nineballs post is a good example of why we have the mediocrity that taibanl mentioned.
> 
> There are definitely some issues with level matching in the low frequencies. Everybody may not experience the problem but a significant number of users do.
> It's great that we have the MS-8... that doesn't mean it can't be improved.
> Even more proof of the problems/idiosyncrasies of the MS-8 is the suggestions by Andy and other how to 'trick' the system when doing the calibration to fix bass or midbass.
> 
> The analogy to the decline of Blackberry is great. From the market leader to falling at the back of the pack.
> And you know who's leading it? Android. You know why? Partly due to a lot of user input. Open source software with huge forums for discussion and improvement makes a big difference.
> Which is how MS-8 could go from being 'good' to 'great'.
> Otherwise, the next company will put out something better that fixes all the stuff we've been talking about... then who will buy an MS-8.



again, not everyone has this midbass problem. my dyns sound great with the ms-8 running their processing, so your blanket statement does not apply. it's the same old adage - you only hear from someone experiencing a problem on a board like this. i'm willing to bet if you polled every ms-8 owner it would be quite a small percentage of people having this problem. 

i got a news flash for you - the next company will always come out with something different (and possibly better). that is what drives a market. if it didn't then we would only have a bitone or only have a (insert your favorite processor here) to play with. 

and fwiw android is not the leader in the market by a longshot. they have quite a ways to go to catch up to appple. their sales may be picking up but they are only getting the old windows mobile or palm owners, not taking away from apple.


----------



## stellatariche

Question: I have a pretty good custom system in my 2001 Audi A8 and want to put in an MS-8 (I currently have a alpine pxa-h650)

BUT, I'd need a good center channel. The dash has no room (front facing); it may be possible to put a 5.25" or 6" in the dash top facing up to the windshield.

Does anyone have experience putting a shallow center into a car like this?

Thanks,

- John


----------



## nineball

taibanl said:


> 1) Yes, Because it professes to do something that it cannot properly do. It is marketed specifically to be a solution to issues like this, and in this case it is the CAUSE of the issue.
> 
> 2) Again, it is marketed and designed to prevent workarounds. Furthermore, the workarounds posted are not easily achieved in all applications such as mine.
> 
> 3) I would have zero posts, maybe one to say "Thanks" if I were not having issues. Indeed I am being the proverbial squeaky wheel, but I will also heavily promote products with which I am satisfied.




1. it does it properly in my situation, so it lives up to what it claims to do.

2. no one in mobile audio goes exactly by what a manufacturer states. for example, people routinely give speakers more power than their rated limits. the wonderful thing about this hobby is that you have the ability to experiment and try different things to see what works best for you. i'm sorry the ms-8 wasn't the solution you wanted. i'd suggest you sell it and get a manual processor so you can tune the system to your liking. 

3 sure.


----------



## chefhow

taibanl said:


> 1) Yes, Because it professes to do something that it cannot properly do. It is marketed specifically to be a solution to issues like this, and in this case it is the CAUSE of the issue.
> 
> *Actually its designed to be a way to take an OEM system and make it better, not take a custom system and tune it. That is a by product of its intended purpose.*
> 
> 2) Again, it is marketed and designed to prevent workarounds. Furthermore, the workarounds posted are not easily achieved in all applications such as mine.
> *And when used as intended it does.*
> 
> 3) I would have zero posts, maybe one to say "Thanks" if I were not having issues. Indeed I am being the proverbial squeaky wheel, but I will also heavily promote products with which I am satisfied.


....


----------



## trojan fan

The fix all, cure all magic box?.....LOL


When is the 2.0 model coming out?


----------



## trojan fan

stellatariche said:


> Question: I have a pretty good custom system in my 2001 Audi A8 and want to put in an MS-8 (I currently have a alpine pxa-h650)
> 
> BUT, I'd need a good center channel. The dash has no room (front facing); it may be possible to put a 5.25" or 6" in the dash top facing up to the windshield.
> 
> Does anyone have experience putting a shallow center into a car like this?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> - John



If you have limited experience dealing with something like this go visit a local shop...good luck


----------



## kaigoss69

stellatariche said:


> Question: I have a pretty good custom system in my 2001 Audi A8 and want to put in an MS-8 (I currently have a alpine pxa-h650)
> 
> BUT, I'd need a good center channel. The dash has no room (front facing); it may be possible to put a 5.25" or 6" in the dash top facing up to the windshield.
> 
> Does anyone have experience putting a shallow center into a car like this?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> - John


Facing up is the recommended orientation for the center channel. Try to put the largest center in there you can fit.


----------



## trojan fan

kaigoss69 said:


> Facing up is the recommended orientation for the center channel. Try to put the largest center in there you can fit.



Why run a center channel in the first place?


----------



## kaigoss69

trojan fan said:


> Why run a center channel in the first place?


Huh?


----------



## taibanl

I can't be certain but I would be confident that my setup is within the mainstream "target" system for this device. I think the option of pre-outs that can be mixed and matched confirms this is more than an "incidental" possibility.

Guys, generally, I think this is a good product. I just believe it has a significant issue requiring programmer attention. Who's to say my issue is the one that deserves priority over others and very well thought feature requests...I don't know. Andy and team if they decide I guess. I'm confident guys much smarter than me have dealt with this (Technic and Kaigoss specifically) and would support me, despite their success with workarounds. I think the number of individuals having the issue does warrant a look though.

At least if Andy said, more than we're looking into it and instead said "We've looked into it, and have decided its not worth our resources to fix" it would be AN answer, an unfortunate one but at least something I can go on. 

At the very least I'd like some follow up/continuity...but...a real fix would make me a cheerleader for this product.


----------



## chefhow

taibanl said:


> I can't be certain but I would be confident that my setup is within the mainstream "target" system for this device. I think the option of pre-outs that can be mixed and matched confirms this is more than an "incidental" possibility.
> 
> Guys, generally, I think this is a good product. I just believe it has a significant issue requiring programmer attention. Who's to say my issue is the one that deserves priority over others and very well thought feature requests...I don't know. Andy and team if they decide I guess. I'm confident guys much smarter than me have dealt with this (Technic and Kaigoss specifically) and would support me, despite their success with workarounds. I think the number of individuals having the issue does warrant a look though.
> 
> At least if Andy said, more than we're looking into it and instead said "We've looked into it, and have decided its not worth our resources to fix" it would be AN answer, an unfortunate one but at least something I can go on.
> 
> At the very least I'd like some follow up/continuity...but...a real fix would make me a cheerleader for this product.


.*I ran an MS8 last year in MECA in my SQ car and did VERY well with it winning several big local and regional events in my class without having to do any "workarounds" or tricks*


----------



## an2ny888

i also have the midbass problem, and judging from the posts i've read a lot of us are experiencing the same issue, hopefully this issue will be addressed by harman soon


----------



## timelord9

hi guys

got a really wierd problem which has probably surfaced somewhere before in these last 250 pages. 

Once calibration is complete, turning the music up to a reasonably low/medium level results in a huge amount of distortion coming through the front (amplified) stage. I thought it was the amps, but I got new ones and the problem is still there, so its not the amps 

- when I do the sweeps, the rear speakers (which run directly off the ms8) are much louder than the amplified speakers
- all amp gains are at around 2v. I've tried mucking around with really high gains and it just results in a higher noise floor and no change to the distortion issue
- when I fade completely to the rear speakers, the issue goes away
- when I switch the MS8 processing to 'defeat', and just use the amp crossovers, the volume level drops significantly, probably 10db as a guesstimate, however the distortion goes away. 

this leads me to the theory that the ms8 is having to boost the signal so much to match the fronts to the rears that it distorts with minimal volume. The other theory is that the rca output stage is cactus and I need a new unit. 

Im also starting to run out of ideas and patience - anyone got any better ones?

yours in deep, but grumpy, thought

timelord.


----------



## subwoofery

chefhow said:


> .*I ran an MS8 last year in MECA in my SQ car and did VERY well with it winning several big local and regional events in my class without having to do any "workarounds" or tricks*


I guess people are not used to hear a good tuned system... aka less midbass than you're used to - just enough... just right... 
Thank you for your useful post and congrats for the wins... with an MS-8 

Kelvin


----------



## Vitty

What do you deem as proper midbass and what musical sounds best represent that range of frequencies(and what is the frequency range)? That would actually be quite helpful to me for testing purposes.


----------



## taibanl

subwoofery said:


> I guess people are not used to hear a good tuned system... aka less midbass than you're used to - just enough... just right...
> Thank you for your useful post and congrats for the wins... with an MS-8
> 
> Kelvin


Dude. Its really not helpful for you to assume that individual tastes are responsible for this issue. Or that people are misusing the product. All i am looking for is the designed FLAT response, not some bs smiley face curve. 

Not only am i a musician who is indimately familiar with my own (rock) recordings and the corresponding intended response but i have actually tuned the system to play classical and had a nationally performing (read: expert ear) classical artist assist with my tune. 

What i am getting is a rediculously boosted sub at (maybe even above) te cross point and literally almost non-existent midbass. 

Please stop assuming you know what you are talking about when it comes to vehicles you have not seen or heard.


----------



## kaigoss69

timelord9 said:


> hi guys
> 
> got a really wierd problem which has probably surfaced somewhere before in these last 250 pages.
> 
> Once calibration is complete, turning the music up to a reasonably low/medium level results in a huge amount of distortion coming through the front (amplified) stage. I thought it was the amps, but I got new ones and the problem is still there, so its not the amps
> 
> - when I do the sweeps, the rear speakers (which run directly off the ms8) are much louder than the amplified speakers
> - all amp gains are at around 2v. I've tried mucking around with really high gains and it just results in a higher noise floor and no change to the distortion issue
> - when I fade completely to the rear speakers, the issue goes away
> - when I switch the MS8 processing to 'defeat', and just use the amp crossovers, the volume level drops significantly, probably 10db as a guesstimate, however the distortion goes away.
> 
> this leads me to the theory that the ms8 is having to boost the signal so much to match the fronts to the rears that it distorts with minimal volume. The other theory is that the rca output stage is cactus and I need a new unit.
> 
> Im also starting to run out of ideas and patience - anyone got any better ones?
> 
> yours in deep, but grumpy, thought
> 
> timelord.


You MUST increase the gains on the amps to match the level of the rear speakers!!! THEN, you MUST adjust the calibration volume such that the sweeps are not too loud. Try -35dB, then -40, then -45...


----------



## rain27

timelord9 said:


> hi guys
> 
> got a really wierd problem which has probably surfaced somewhere before in these last 250 pages.
> 
> Once calibration is complete, turning the music up to a reasonably low/medium level results in a huge amount of distortion coming through the front (amplified) stage. I thought it was the amps, but I got new ones and the problem is still there, so its not the amps
> 
> - when I do the sweeps, the rear speakers (which run directly off the ms8) are much louder than the amplified speakers
> - all amp gains are at around 2v. I've tried mucking around with really high gains and it just results in a higher noise floor and no change to the distortion issue
> - when I fade completely to the rear speakers, the issue goes away
> - when I switch the MS8 processing to 'defeat', and just use the amp crossovers, the volume level drops significantly, probably 10db as a guesstimate, however the distortion goes away.
> 
> this leads me to the theory that the ms8 is having to boost the signal so much to match the fronts to the rears that it distorts with minimal volume. The other theory is that the rca output stage is cactus and I need a new unit.
> 
> Im also starting to run out of ideas and patience - anyone got any better ones?
> 
> yours in deep, but grumpy, thought
> 
> timelord.


Have you tried assigning different channels for the fronts to make sure the MS-8 does not have any bad channels?

Or

Have you tried to switch your rcas from your head unit to the aux input of the MS-8?


----------



## subwoofery

taibanl said:


> Dude. Its really not helpful for you to assume that individual tastes are responsible for this issue. Or that people are misusing the product. All i am looking for is the designed FLAT response, not some bs smiley face curve.
> 
> Not only am i a musician who is indimately familiar with my own (rock) recordings and the corresponding intended response but i have actually tuned the system to play classical and had a nationally performing (read: expert ear) classical artist assist with my tune.
> 
> What i am getting is a rediculously boosted sub at (maybe even above) te cross point and literally almost non-existent midbass.
> 
> Please stop assuming you know what you are talking about when it comes to vehicles you have not seen or heard.


Well I'm not assuming you guyz don't know how to tune nor use the MS-8... Really not my intention. 

But really if you read a couple of pages back you'll see that some don't like what the MS-8 does - processing your system to have an "invisible" center channel. Not saying they don't know how to listen but some have been so used to hearing out of phase informations that it became normal to them. 
Most people I know that jump into my car really don't know what to listen to and most of them don't like what they hear because it's just a 2.1 setup. 
I explain why I disconnected the rears but they still don't understand. <-- they feel Bose is the SHIZNIT!!!!! 

^ preference and taste here... 

Now regarding my post, go out to a High-End home audio shop and bring your CDs (Rock ones since you like those) and have a listen. You'll see that midbass isn't overpowering everything. There's actually much less midbass than what I thought I wanted. Too much and it sounds boomy and chesty / you won't hear much overtones and bass lines will mostly be blooted / slightly less midbass will add clarity / too much and vocals and mid-range instruments will sound muddy / Reduce midbass freqs in order to decrease "cardboard" sound of lower drums (foot and toms) 
If you want dynamics, you shouldn't focus on midbass freqs but actually on midrange freqs. 
Again, not saying ones taste is wrong but it can impair on the sound reproduction the artist wanted from his album. The MS-8 really does its job well IMO - here's the MS-8 target curve. 








Doesn't look like a smiley curve to me. Doesn't look like FLAT to me either. 

If you have too much subwoofer freqs, then try to lower your sub amp gains and recalibrate. As for midbass, I don't know... Play with phase, level and the EQ provided after the calibration. 

§§Vitty§§
Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network

Kelvin


----------



## Wheres The Butta

taibanl said:


> Dude. Its really not helpful for you to assume that individual tastes are responsible for this issue. Or that people are misusing the product. All i am looking for is the designed FLAT response, not some bs smiley face curve.
> 
> Not only am i a musician who is indimately familiar with my own (rock) recordings and the corresponding intended response but i have actually tuned the system to play classical and had a nationally performing (read: expert ear) classical artist assist with my tune.
> 
> *What i am getting is a rediculously boosted sub at (maybe even above) te cross point and literally almost non-existent midbass. *
> 
> Please stop assuming you know what you are talking about when it comes to vehicles you have not seen or heard.


this sounds like a dead ringer for doing the calibration sweeps too loud.

re-do your calibration with the car off, in a quiet place, with the A/C off, with all your fans off, with EVERYTHING off and make the sweeps just barely audible. I say turn everything off, because if you have all that extraneous noise, the sweeps won't seem as loud as they actually are, so it's difficult to gauge their real volume level. 

I conducted my sweeps at around 65db. (-55 on the MS-8 volume) Just for a reference point.


----------



## rain27

subwoofery said:


> Well I'm not assuming you guyz don't know how to tune nor use the MS-8... Really not my intention.
> 
> But really if you read a couple of pages back you'll see that some don't like what the MS-8 does - processing your system to have an "invisible" center channel. Not saying they don't know how to listen but some have been so used to hearing out of phase informations that it became normal to them.
> Most people I know that jump into my car really don't know what to listen to and most of them don't like what they hear because it's just a 2.1 setup.
> I explain why I disconnected the rears but they still don't understand. <-- they feel Bose is the SHIZNIT!!!!!
> 
> ^ preference and taste here...
> 
> Now regarding my post, go out to a High-End home audio shop and bring your CDs (Rock ones since you like those) and have a listen. You'll see that midbass isn't overpowering everything. There's actually much less midbass than what I thought I wanted. Too much and it sounds boomy and chesty / you won't hear much overtones and bass lines will mostly be blooted / slightly less midbass will add clarity / too much and vocals and mid-range instruments will sound muddy / Reduce midbass freqs in order to decrease "cardboard" sound of lower drums (foot and toms)
> If you want dynamics, you shouldn't focus on midbass freqs but actually on midrange freqs.
> Again, not saying ones taste is wrong but it can impair on the sound reproduction the artist wanted from his album. The MS-8 really does its job well IMO - here's the MS-8 target curve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't look like a smiley curve to me. Doesn't look like FLAT to me either.
> 
> If you have too much subwoofer freqs, then try to lower your sub amp gains and recalibrate. As for midbass, I don't know... Play with phase, level and the EQ provided after the calibration.
> 
> §§Vitty§§
> Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network
> 
> Kelvin


His description of his issue is beyond simple preference..._rediculously boosted sub at (maybe even above) te cross point and literally almost non-existent midbass_. 

His MS-8 is obviously not hitting its target curve and there is another problem here. 

This issue has come up before in this thread. Clock radio sound with enormous sub bass. Some have resolved the issue with Wheres the Butta's suggestion.


----------



## rain27

Two common problems associated with extremely loud sub bass and extremely low mid bass are the sweeps being too loud or the midrange being connected out of phase.

More information can be found in this thread as well: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...advanced/85136-ms-8-tips-tricks-thread-5.html


----------



## subwoofery

rain27 said:


> His description of his issue is beyond simple preference..._rediculously boosted sub at (maybe even above) te cross point and literally almost non-existent midbass_.
> 
> His MS-8 is obviously not hitting its target curve and there is another problem here.
> 
> This issue has come up before in this thread. Clock radio sound with enormous sub bass. Some have resolved the issue with Wheres the Butta's suggestion.


Too much low bass is a user's error. 
Ok the MS-8 is supposed to be a plug-and-play processor but it's still that: _*a processor*_. You have to play with it and learn how to use it in order to unleash it's full potential... 
Some people have won SQ titles using it so I guess you need to optimize its use through knowledge and maybe speaker placements/aiming. 

Seems like you found the thread that helps fix common problems... 

Kelvin


----------



## timelord9

kaigoss69 said:


> You MUST increase the gains on the amps to match the level of the rear speakers!!! THEN, you MUST adjust the calibration volume such that the sweeps are not too loud. Try -35dB, then -40, then -45...





rain27 said:


> Have you tried assigning different channels for the fronts to make sure the MS-8 does not have any bad channels?
> 
> Or
> 
> Have you tried to switch your rcas from your head unit to the aux input of the MS-8?


thanks for the ideas. 

I have tried not assigning rears during calibration, as well as level matching the amped speakers to the ms8 driven speakers. No change - still got distortion at medium volumes. 

I haven't yet tried using the aux inputs - thats next.

anyone got any other thoughts?


----------



## rain27

I'd also check with everything in the install chain...down to seeing if your rcas are pinched or bent...weird things can happen with even that.


----------



## andy335touring

Has any one got an MS-8 system with a front sub ?

Just wondering if it might get confused with a slightly untraditional lay out ?


----------



## Sirrus

timelord9 said:


> hi guys
> 
> got a really wierd problem which has probably surfaced somewhere before in these last 250 pages.
> 
> Once calibration is complete, turning the music up to a reasonably low/medium level results in a huge amount of distortion coming through the front (amplified) stage. I thought it was the amps, but I got new ones and the problem is still there, so its not the amps
> 
> - when I do the sweeps, the rear speakers (which run directly off the ms8) are much louder than the amplified speakers
> - all amp gains are at around 2v. I've tried mucking around with really high gains and it just results in a higher noise floor and no change to the distortion issue
> - when I fade completely to the rear speakers, the issue goes away
> - when I switch the MS8 processing to 'defeat', and just use the amp crossovers, the volume level drops significantly, probably 10db as a guesstimate, however the distortion goes away.
> 
> this leads me to the theory that the ms8 is having to boost the signal so much to match the fronts to the rears that it distorts with minimal volume. The other theory is that the rca output stage is cactus and I need a new unit.
> 
> Im also starting to run out of ideas and patience - anyone got any better ones?
> 
> yours in deep, but grumpy, thought
> 
> timelord.


Hi there,

If your loudest speakers are MS-8 powered, then I don't think you really need to be reducing the volume as much as other people are recommending. I'm level matched to my MS-8 powered rears and have had success sweeping at -22 db. When I say level matched, I mean I used an RTA and got my response as close to flat as I could. I also cross-referenced with a decibelmeter and was somewhere around 80 db. Andy mentioned this volume level in here at some point.

Also, you didn't mention how you are controlling volume. If you are using your head unit's volume nob, you need to increase the volume of the MS-8 after calibration. I would recommend something like -12 db. If you are using the MS-8 to control volume, then you need to follow the procedure in the manual for setting the head unit's volume control to maximum undistorted signal.

If you're still having trouble, I would take a closer look at the signal you are inputing into the MS-8, which you didn't really talk about.


----------



## Sirrus

kaigoss69 said:


> Hey Sirrus,
> 
> if you have to listen to it for a few days to get used to it, then it ain't no good!
> 
> The lack of midbass problem, I believe, is somehow caused by the sub sweep either being too peaky or not being on the same volume level with the midbass sweeps, or both. I believe there may simply not be enough EQ headroom available to adjust between the peaks of one and the valleys of the other, if that makes sense, so the results get screwed-up somehow.
> 
> The midbass drivers, being mounted IB in most cases, don't produce any significant peaks in the subbass range, so the processor has an easier time to make the necessary corrections.
> 
> Also, keep in mind that MS-8 "wants" to give you a fairly flat tune, which it apparently does with the midbass playing all the way down. If the sweeps are too loud or too peaky, it just ends up cutting too much. Since most of us prefer a bump in the lower midbass and subbass range, this trick seems to work well.


So I've tried this both ways now and concluded that the manufacturer intended configuration (sub on own MS-8 channel) is better for me. I made some adjustments along the way that I would suggest others with this problem should try.

Car setup: BMW with factory HiFi 8-inch woofers under front seats and JL 10w6 in trunk.

Changes:
-Changed sub/front crossover point from 80 Hz to 60 Hz (-24 db slope). It seems that many songs have bass notes at 60-70 Hz and now these are snappier and less boomy.
-Reversed polarity of woofers. (Originally I swapped polarity of sub, but later found another phase issue between woofers and mids)
-Adjusted eq as follows
40 Hz -1.5 db
50 Hz +1 db
63 Hz +4.5 db
80 Hz +3.5 db
100 Hz +2.5 db
125 Hz +1.5 db
160 Hz + 1 db

Before making the EQ adjustments, my RTA showed me that I was close to the "target curve" except that instead of being +9 I'm closer to +15. Also my slope from 40 Hz to 100 Hz looked more like a skateboard quarterpipe. By making these adjustments I made it look more like a rolling hill. I'm still test driving these eq settings on songs, and I need to remeasure with the RTA at multiple points, but so far I like it.

The problem I had with using Kaigoss' method is that it sounds as if they have some kind of a filter or maybe a different "target curve" for a non-subwoofer setup. As a result I'm missing my lower bass information (20-40 Hz). If they are using similar code for the MS-2, then this post reinforces that conclusion.


----------



## kaigoss69

Sirrus said:


> So I've tried this both ways now and concluded that the manufacturer intended configuration (sub on own MS-8 channel) is better for me. I made some adjustments along the way that I would suggest others with this problem should try.
> 
> Car setup: BMW with factory HiFi 8-inch woofers under front seats and JL 10w6 in trunk.
> 
> Changes:
> -Changed sub/front crossover point from 80 Hz to 60 Hz (-24 db slope). It seems that many songs have bass notes at 60-70 Hz and now these are snappier and less boomy.
> -Reversed polarity of sub. This fixed a huge dip at the crossover point.
> -Adjusted eq as follows (these are estimates because I didn't write them down)
> 40 Hz -1.5 db
> 63 Hz +4 db
> 80 Hz +2.5 db
> 100 Hz +2 db
> 125 Hz +2 db
> 160 Hz + 1 db
> 
> Before making the EQ adjustments, my RTA showed me that I was close to the "target curve" except that instead of being +9 I'm closer to +15. Also my slope from 40 Hz to 100 Hz looked more like a skateboard quarterpipe. By making these adjustments I made it look more like a rolling hill. I'm still test driving these eq settings on songs, and I need to remeasure with the RTA at multiple points, but so far I like it.
> 
> The problem I had with using Kaigoss' method is that it sounds as if they have some kind of a filter or maybe a different "target curve" for a non-subwoofer setup. As a result I'm missing my lower bass information (20-40 Hz). If they are using similar code for the MS-2, then this post reinforces that conclusion.


Sirrus,

I've tried reversing the sub polarity and it sounded about the same to me. I did not measure anything, nor spend much time listening, so it could be that the sub reversal is actually better, as you suggest. I will give this another try.

While I had the sub hooked-up to the MS-8, I messed around with a few different x-over points, and I also ended up at 60Hz. But I could never get the midbass to where I like it, even with heavy boost between 60 and 120 Hz. It may be personal preference, but I like to feel the midbass, rather than just hear it. May I also suggest that your OEM HiFi woofers may not be capable of "heavy" midbass impact, so perhaps the "lack of midbass" may not be as apparent to you as to others? - I am using 10" Morels now and they can hit very hard, but only when I use the "trick". When I calibrate with the sub they basically just disappear and you cannot hear or feel them, but without the sub they stand out and make my pant legs flutter like crazy .


----------



## kaigoss69

andy335touring said:


> Has any one got an MS-8 system with a front sub ?
> 
> Just wondering if it might get confused with a slightly untraditional lay out ?


Why? MS-8 does not time align to the sub, so it won't know the sub's location. Regardless, having the sub up front is probably the best way to achieve "up front" bass!


----------



## Sirrus

kaigoss69 said:


> Sirrus,
> 
> I've tried reversing the sub polarity and it sounded about the same to me. I did not measure anything, nor spend much time listening, so it could be that the sub reversal is actually better, as you suggest. I will give this another try.
> 
> While I had the sub hooked-up to the MS-8, I messed around with a few different x-over points, and I also ended up at 60Hz. But I could never get the midbass to where I like it, even with heavy boost between 60 and 120 Hz. It may be personal preference, but I like to feel the midbass, rather than just hear it. May I also suggest that your OEM HiFi woofers may not be capable of "heavy" midbass impact, so perhaps the "lack of midbass" may not be as apparent to you as to others? - I am using 10" Morels now and they can hit very hard, but only when I use the "trick". When I calibrate with the sub they basically just disappear and you cannot hear or feel them, but without the sub they stand out and make my pant legs flutter like crazy .


Hi Kaigoss,

After I wrote this post, I spent some more time in the car and discovered that it wasn't my subwoofer out of phase but actually the 8" woofers. I had a big dip at 200 Hz (-20 db and very sharp) where they cross with the mids. Somehow I had not noticed this by ear, but the RTA sure picked it up (multiple microphone positions). I swapped polarity of the woofers and the sub to keep them in line.

If you haven't checked for this, I would highly recommend it. I'm not sure where you're crossing with your mids, but it could be contributing to your issue. I imagine many e90's will have this problem. VP had mentioned it ages ago, but I never got around to looking until now.

Anyway, sorry for the threadjack... carry on


----------



## andy335touring

kaigoss69 said:


> Why? MS-8 does not time align to the sub, so it won't know the sub's location. Regardless, having the sub up front is probably the best way to achieve *"up front" bass!*


Oh right, i didn't know that, thanks for the info 

On the bass front, it's wierd, a few tracks you'd say the subs comming from the back ! 

Certain frequencies bouncing of the rear screen i think ?

Sorry, going o/t


----------



## timelord9

Sirrus said:


> Hi there,
> 
> If your loudest speakers are MS-8 powered, then I don't think you really need to be reducing the volume as much as other people are recommending. I'm level matched to my MS-8 powered rears and have had success sweeping at -22 db. When I say level matched, I mean I used an RTA and got my response as close to flat as I could. I also cross-referenced with a decibelmeter and was somewhere around 80 db. Andy mentioned this volume level in here at some point.
> 
> Also, you didn't mention how you are controlling volume. If you are using your head unit's volume nob, you need to increase the volume of the MS-8 after calibration. I would recommend something like -12 db. If you are using the MS-8 to control volume, then you need to follow the procedure in the manual for setting the head unit's volume control to maximum undistorted signal.
> 
> If you're still having trouble, I would take a closer look at the signal you are inputing into the MS-8, which you didn't really talk about.


quite right. 

source is clarion hxd2, which I've owned for about 3 years and never skipped a beat. I haven't yet properly (ie scope) tested its output however, so thats probably a good one to try. I have plugged it directly into an amp, bypassing the ms8, just to make sure and there were no problems, however I should go back and retest. 

I'll also try and do a better job of matching the rear and front output, but I just feel there's something I'm not getting. The distortion is too evident to be just a slight tuning issue. 

I've also changed all the rcas in the signal path, just to make sure.


----------



## kaigoss69

timelord9 said:


> quite right.
> 
> source is clarion hxd2, which I've owned for about 3 years and never skipped a beat. I haven't yet properly (ie scope) tested its output however, so thats probably a good one to try. I have plugged it directly into an amp, bypassing the ms8, just to make sure and there were no problems, however I should go back and retest.
> 
> I'll also try and do a better job of matching the rear and front output, but I just feel there's something I'm not getting. The distortion is too evident to be just a slight tuning issue.
> 
> I've also changed all the rcas in the signal path, just to make sure.


I was having those same distortion issues in the very beginning. Once I properly set the gains on the midbass amp, it went away.


----------



## rain27

Sirrus said:


> Hi there,
> 
> If your loudest speakers are MS-8 powered, then I don't think you really need to be reducing the volume as much as other people are recommending. I'm level matched to my MS-8 powered rears and have had success sweeping at -22 db. When I say level matched, I mean I used an RTA and got my response as close to flat as I could. I also cross-referenced with a decibelmeter and was somewhere around 80 db. Andy mentioned this volume level in here at some point.
> 
> Also, you didn't mention how you are controlling volume. If you are using your head unit's volume nob, you need to increase the volume of the MS-8 after calibration. I would recommend something like -12 db. If you are using the MS-8 to control volume, then you need to follow the procedure in the manual for setting the head unit's volume control to maximum undistorted signal.
> 
> If you're still having trouble, I would take a closer look at the signal you are inputing into the MS-8, which you didn't really talk about.


The MS-8 manual shows that using -6db on the MS-8 when using the head unit's volume control and I've never had a problem using it this way. Andy's even said that putting the MS-8 at 0db is fine too.

And for the HX-D2 (what Timelord is using), I believe the distortion threshold is reached at -4db on the Clarion itself. I've used it this way and it's fine. 

The set up disk allows you to check each head unit's peak volume when using the head unit for volume control.


----------



## Sirrus

timelord9 said:


> quite right.
> 
> source is clarion hxd2, which I've owned for about 3 years and never skipped a beat. I haven't yet properly (ie scope) tested its output however, so thats probably a good one to try. I have plugged it directly into an amp, bypassing the ms8, just to make sure and there were no problems, however I should go back and retest.
> 
> I'll also try and do a better job of matching the rear and front output, but I just feel there's something I'm not getting. The distortion is too evident to be just a slight tuning issue.
> 
> I've also changed all the rcas in the signal path, just to make sure.


You didn't mention how many RCAs you're running from the head unit, but if you have full range RCA outputs, only use one pair (ie Front).


----------



## BuickGN

I got pretty bad distortion when using a line driver in front of the MS8. I wanted a little more headroom but apparently this was the wrong way to go. It would distort pretty badly once I got a little past the point where the volume would top out before the line driver. I was doing calibration with the line driver at 0 and then boosting after calibration. I bypassed the MS8 and cranked the line driver up even more directly to the amp and no distortion so it was definitely too high of an input voltage.


----------



## Sknoch

Ok everyone, I have a question that I can't seem to find a clear answer on. I have read this entire thread as well as done a ton of research and I still have not found what I am looking for.

My question is in regards to using both the internal amp of the ms-8 in conjunction with an external amplifier and the effects it has on overall performance. I would like to run my front 2 way components active and the subwoofer off of an external amp (JL HD 900/5) and my rear fill off of the internal amp of the MS-8. Has anyone done something similar? My primary concern is that it will bring down the levels of the entire system.

Here is my setup current list of gear.
Vehicle is an 11' F250 crew cab.
Head unit: stock navigation unit
Processing/ factory integration: JBL MS-8
Amplification: JL Audio 900/5
Front stage: Hertz MLK 165
Rear fill: currently stock, but open to possible upgrade
Sub: SI BM MKIII in a custom enclosure from SPL2K

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Shawn


----------



## jfkaiser

Finally Pure Audio Bliss.....

Hi Guys,

First let me say that I have followed and read this thread religiously before I even received my ms-8 in the mail. Printed out FAQ etc.

It has taken me a LONG tiresome series of calibrations to finally arrive at pure audio bliss. (my audio setup is detailed at bottom of this post)

*In Summary:* the best sounding calibration I have done was with the ms-8 output volume set at 15db before starting the sweeps !!

I know this is contrary to alot of the posts found here......

I got frustrated with what everyone kept saying about turning down the Ms-8during calibrations to 40db and even lower since my sound kept sucking and sounding like an am radio even though I run a 6.5" center channel

At one point I even got distortion throught the center channel that was purely a result of incorrect gain structures setup by the ms-8 during these "too low volume" calibration sessions.

Frustrated, I instead hooked all my speakers up to the powered ms-8 and set it for 20db for the calibration as it says in the manual.
I then took a Ratshack sound level meter and *measured the volumes of the sweeps in my car............they were all around 77db or so* with the sub of course maxing the meter (since meter was set at 70db scale) I have read that 85db is around what Andy stated was good volume for the sweeps.

I listened to the system as powered completely by the ms-8 for a week or so just to see if I could tell what sound I was shooting for once I wanted to throw my Alpine PDX5 back in the loop

Once the Alpine PDX5 was back in the picture I did the following:
1. Started by resetting the MS-8 "back to factory bit" using the command in the System Settings menu via the display/remote

2. Tried different MS-8 Output volumes while then triggering a few sweeps....until I again achieved that 77db or so that I had observed from my previous test (i.e. the test above where I measured the sweep db levels when the ms-8 was powering everything and ms-8 output volume was set at 20db as recommended in the manual)

3. My optimal "output volume" setting on the ms-8 with my Alpine PDX5 amp back in the picture.........15db!!

I am now hearing midbass and detail from my system that I have NEVER heard before.
I actually took the long way home tonight and circled the block a few extra times just to be able to hear the ms-8 process my music awhile longer

I run the following setup:

Note: PDX5 gains set at center detent position (2v?)

*Fronts:* Kappa Perfect 6.5" Components - 
Tweeters powered by MS8 outputs #1 and #2, 
Woofers on line outputs #3 and #4 from MS-8 and then powered by two channels of the Alpine PDX5

*Center:* Polk DXI 6500 6.5" Component speaker running as one-way from MS-8 line out #7 and powered by one channel of my Alpine PDX5 (using the passive crossover that came with the set)

*Sides and Rears *- Running pair of Polk DXi650 coaxials in parallel with the builtin JBL 6.5's in my prius back doors wired at 2 ohms and powered by the MS8 using outputs #5 and #6

*Subwoofer:* 10" sub in a bandpass ported box running an old Kicker sub and powered by the subchannel of the Alpine PDX5

*ANOMALLY:* one odd thing that did happen to me back when I was still doing calibrations at 35-40db was that one day my car just started sounding like ALL system processing was directing ALL sound to the center channel speaker......no changes by me to cause this.
Anyway I went to the reset button on the side of the ms-8 itself and reset it (which of course does NOT erase your calibrations)........after that the proper sound from all speakers came back and worked fine. Not sure if overheat issue or what caused this. I have NOT yet experienced this same weird scenario with my latest calibrations, but again we had some VERY hot days over the last few weeks so who knows


----------



## Sirrus

Sknoch said:


> Ok everyone, I have a question that I can't seem to find a clear answer on. I have read this entire thread as well as done a ton of research and I still have not found what I am looking for.
> 
> My question is in regards to using both the internal amp of the ms-8 in conjunction with an external amplifier and the effects it has on overall performance. I would like to run my front 2 way components active and the subwoofer off of an external amp (JL HD 900/5) and my rear fill off of the internal amp of the MS-8. Has anyone done something similar? My primary concern is that it will bring down the levels of the entire system.
> 
> Here is my setup current list of gear.
> Vehicle is an 11' F250 crew cab.
> Head unit: stock navigation unit
> Processing/ factory integration: JBL MS-8
> Amplification: JL Audio 900/5
> Front stage: Hertz MLK 165
> Rear fill: currently stock, but open to possible upgrade
> Sub: SI BM MKIII in a custom enclosure from SPL2K
> 
> Any input would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> Shawn


See my reply in your other thread. Sorry for not getting to it sooner...

In summary, I'm doing this and am happy with it. Stock speakers are usually fairly high-sensitivity so as long as you don't throw too much bass at them you'll be fine for volume.


----------



## Sirrus

jfkaiser said:


> Finally Pure Audio Bliss.....
> 
> Hi Guys,
> 
> First let me say that I have followed and read this thread religiously before I even received my ms-8 in the mail. Printed out FAQ etc.
> 
> It has taken me a LONG tiresome series of calibrations to finally arrive at pure audio bliss. (my audio setup is detailed at bottom of this post)
> 
> *In Summary:* the best sounding calibration I have done was with the ms-8 output volume set at 15db before starting the sweeps !!
> 
> ...


Cool! It sounds like your gains might be lower than they potentially could be set. If you're happy with the maximum volume you can reach without distortion, then I'd leave it as is! By increasing the gains, you would be sacrificing your amplifier headroom and probably increasing the noise floor volume level.


----------



## jfkaiser

Thanks Man,
You got me thinking and so I did some digging

If the Alpine PDX-5 is like the other models in its lineup then:
• Input Sensitivity (For Rated Power): 0.2V to 4.0V *(1.0 at Center Detent) *

So you are correct.......maybe I can try and figure out where 2V would be on their gain adjustment.

Thanks!!

Jon


----------



## Dirtboy

Sknoch said:


> Ok everyone, I have a question that I can't seem to find a clear answer on. I have read this entire thread as well as done a ton of research and I still have not found what I am looking for.
> 
> My question is in regards to using both the internal amp of the ms-8 in conjunction with an external amplifier and the effects it has on overall performance. I would like to run my front 2 way components active and the subwoofer off of an external amp (JL HD 900/5) and my rear fill off of the internal amp of the MS-8. Has anyone done something similar? My primary concern is that it will bring down the levels of the entire system.
> 
> Here is my setup current list of gear.
> Vehicle is an 11' F250 crew cab.
> Head unit: stock navigation unit
> Processing/ factory integration: JBL MS-8
> Amplification: JL Audio 900/5
> Front stage: Hertz MLK 165
> Rear fill: currently stock, but open to possible upgrade
> Sub: SI BM MKIII in a custom enclosure from SPL2K
> 
> Any input would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> Shawn


My system is set up like this too. During calibration, I level matched all the channels using an spl meter; had them all around 68-69 db with the MS8 at -30. Once the calibration was complete, I adjusted the gains on the outboard amp (JL 500/5) to my liking. I found that I wasn't getting enough rear-fill and no amount of fading with the MS8 was working to my liking. So I went ahead and grabbed another amp off of ebay (JL 300/2). I still need to install that amp once I get back from vacation.

FYI, here's my system:
Vehicle: 89 BMW 325i coupe
Head unit: OEM BMW C43
DSP: JBL MS-8
Amplification: JL Audio 500/5, JL Audio 300/2
Front stage: Polk Audio MM521
Rear fill: Polk Audio GX5?? (I think, found at junkyard)
Sub: JL Audio 10W3v3 in custom ported box

System sounds good, I just want some more rear fill....


----------



## Sirrus

Dirtboy said:


> My system is set up like this too. During calibration, I level matched all the channels using an spl meter; had them all around 68-69 db with the MS8 at -30. Once the calibration was complete, I adjusted the gains on the outboard amp (JL 500/5) to my liking. I found that I wasn't getting enough rear-fill and no amount of fading with the MS8 was working to my liking. So I went ahead and grabbed another amp off of ebay (JL 300/2). I still need to install that amp once I get back from vacation.
> 
> FYI, here's my system:
> Vehicle: 89 BMW 325i coupe
> Head unit: OEM BMW C43
> DSP: JBL MS-8
> Amplification: JL Audio 500/5, JL Audio 300/2
> Front stage: Polk Audio MM521
> Rear fill: Polk Audio GX5?? (I think, found at junkyard)
> Sub: JL Audio 10W3v3 in custom ported box
> 
> System sounds good, I just want some more rear fill....


Have you tried turning off L7?

Also, I'm pretty sure JBL did not intend for people to fiddle with the gains after calibration. I know some people in this thread like to do it, but personally I'd expect to get better results using the intended controls (fader, eq, etc). If you dig around here you'll find information about the "Sub" level control that backs up this idea.


----------



## Dirtboy

Sirrus said:


> Have you tried turning off L7?
> 
> Also, I'm pretty sure JBL did not intend for people to fiddle with the gains after calibration. I know some people in this thread like to do it, but personally I'd expect to get better results using the intended controls (fader, eq, etc). If you dig around here you'll find information about the "Sub" level control that backs up this idea.


I have L7 off. I don't really like the way it sounds without a center channel. Installing a center channel is not an option for me because I want the car to appear as close to stock as possible. 

I adjusted the gains because when I turned the deck up to a reasonable level I got too much distortion. This could be the fact that I'm using an OEM tape deck as my source. Once I adjusted the gains all was good but the rear fill was too low. So now I'm going to add the 300/2 to the mix; it will be powering the fronts. The rears will get switched to the 100w section of the 500/5. We'll see how it goes from there.


----------



## dlheman

jfkaiser said:


> Finally Pure Audio Bliss.....
> 
> Hi Guys,
> 
> First let me say that I have followed and read this thread religiously before I even received my ms-8 in the mail. Printed out FAQ etc.
> 
> It has taken me a LONG tiresome series of calibrations to finally arrive at pure audio bliss. (my audio setup is detailed at bottom of this post)
> 
> *In Summary:* the best sounding calibration I have done was with the ms-8 output volume set at 15db before starting the sweeps !!
> 
> I know this is contrary to alot of the posts found here......
> 
> I got frustrated with what everyone kept saying about turning down the Ms-8during calibrations to 40db and even lower since my sound kept sucking and sounding like an am radio even though I run a 6.5" center channel
> 
> At one point I even got distortion throught the center channel that was purely a result of incorrect gain structures setup by the ms-8 during these "too low volume" calibration sessions.
> 
> Frustrated, I instead hooked all my speakers up to the powered ms-8 and set it for 20db for the calibration as it says in the manual.
> I then took a Ratshack sound level meter and *measured the volumes of the sweeps in my car............they were all around 77db or so* with the sub of course maxing the meter (since meter was set at 70db scale) I have read that 85db is around what Andy stated was good volume for the sweeps.
> 
> I listened to the system as powered completely by the ms-8 for a week or so just to see if I could tell what sound I was shooting for once I wanted to throw my Alpine PDX5 back in the loop
> 
> Once the Alpine PDX5 was back in the picture I did the following:
> 1. Started by resetting the MS-8 "back to factory bit" using the command in the System Settings menu via the display/remote
> 
> 2. Tried different MS-8 Output volumes while then triggering a few sweeps....until I again achieved that 77db or so that I had observed from my previous test (i.e. the test above where I measured the sweep db levels when the ms-8 was powering everything and ms-8 output volume was set at 20db as recommended in the manual)
> 
> 3. My optimal "output volume" setting on the ms-8 with my Alpine PDX5 amp back in the picture.........15db!!
> 
> I am now hearing midbass and detail from my system that I have NEVER heard before.
> I actually took the long way home tonight and circled the block a few extra times just to be able to hear the ms-8 process my music awhile longer
> 
> I run the following setup:
> 
> Note: PDX5 gains set at center detent position (2v?)
> 
> *Fronts:* Kappa Perfect 6.5" Components -
> Tweeters powered by MS8 outputs #1 and #2,
> Woofers on line outputs #3 and #4 from MS-8 and then powered by two channels of the Alpine PDX5
> 
> *Center:* Polk DXI 6500 6.5" Component speaker running as one-way from MS-8 line out #7 and powered by one channel of my Alpine PDX5 (using the passive crossover that came with the set)
> 
> *Sides and Rears *- Running pair of Polk DXi650 coaxials in parallel with the builtin JBL 6.5's in my prius back doors wired at 2 ohms and powered by the MS8 using outputs #5 and #6
> 
> *Subwoofer:* 10" sub in a bandpass ported box running an old Kicker sub and powered by the subchannel of the Alpine PDX5
> 
> *ANOMALLY:* one odd thing that did happen to me back when I was still doing calibrations at 35-40db was that one day my car just started sounding like ALL system processing was directing ALL sound to the center channel speaker......no changes by me to cause this.
> Anyway I went to the reset button on the side of the ms-8 itself and reset it (which of course does NOT erase your calibrations)........after that the proper sound from all speakers came back and worked fine. Not sure if overheat issue or what caused this. I have NOT yet experienced this same weird scenario with my latest calibrations, but again we had some VERY hot days over the last few weeks so who knows


Yeap, same thing happened to me - using recommended -40 or below when using external amplifier didn't work for my latest install. I didn't use SPL metre to measure the dB, but I find it best using -25 for this install. On my previous car I use -50. The latest install is a more complex setup, but this yields the best MS8 result I ever heard in my experience. So it works.

The reason as far as I could understand by logic is because my latest install is in a much bigger car Nissan X-Trail, while previously it was on Toyota Celica. Same amp, same front speakers, even with the same gain level around 2.0v.

The only thing MS8 can't seems to solve on its own is the subwoofer level. Regardless of what I did (low gain, high gain, etc etc etc), the result will always be overpowering. To solved it I simply reduced the sub level on MS8 control. Is not the same sub I used before which MS8 able to tune wonderfully, and I know it is case-by-case situation because every car and gears should be treated differently, yet I find it interesting why can't MS8 solve my new sub level on its own.

And when I met Gary Biggs last weekend, he told me the same thing like what you did, use SPL metre to get 70db during speaker diagnostic and whatever the MS8 volume turns out to be that's the level to use for calibration. 

So I will try doing the calibration again using your method and hopefully the result can be better again if the the method helps MS8 solved the sub level.

Edit: I just remembered, the overpowering sub is only when Logic 7 is turned on.


----------



## dlheman

By the way, I am in the process of installing a 2-way component centre speakers but I am not sure if it really matter as to where the tweeter is installed. 

Should the tweeter be installed towards the edge of the windshield, or should the tweeter be installed towards the cabin? Or it doesn't matter at all?


----------



## [email protected]

dlheman said:


> Should the tweeter be installed towards the edge of the windshield, or should the tweeter be installed towards the cabin? Or it doesn't matter at all?


If its possible i would install the tweeter towards the cabin and the midrange looking at the windshield.


----------



## dlheman

Very possible!

I'll place the woofer towards the edge of the windshield and the tweeter towards the cabin both firing upward straight to windshield.


----------



## blackknight87

damn i wish i would have known about this thing when i first started looking at components.


----------



## [email protected]

dlheman said:


> both firing upward straight to windshield.


Place only the woofer firing upward to the windshield. The tweeter is often better to firing in the middle of the car because of his directivity.


----------



## m0sdef

Just recently tried calibrating the ms-8 again using kaigoss' method of bypassing the sub output on the ms-8. Along with running the calibration at a 25 db (in my case) to get the sweeps into the 70 db range.

The once overpowering/boomy sub now blends in so well. Bass located up front on the dash. This is actually the best i've heard my system yet with the ms-8! Now hopefully i'll be able to tune it again like this with the same results or better.


----------



## subwoofery

^ someone is going to get kicked out... 

Kelvin


----------



## acidbass303

subwoofery said:


> ^ someone is going to get kicked out...
> 
> Kelvin


He should be ....


----------



## Wheres The Butta

[email protected] said:


> Place only the woofer firing upward to the windshield. The tweeter is often better to firing in the middle of the car because of his directivity.


that would be great if it's two-way active, but if it's passive, it might not work right


----------



## dlheman

Hmmm, I thought Andy suggested to fire the mid/tweet upward straight to windshield. 

I mean, is like those who uses coaxial full-range and place em on the dash firing upward.


----------



## BEAVER

Somebody please help me understand this thing. What (if any) extra hardware do I need to purchase to use one of these units with the OEM head unit in my 2010 Dodge Charger SXT? Do I need a PAC harness, etc, etc, or can I just tap into my speakers leads? And if I can just tap in, do I do it before or after the OEM amplifier? This is all Greek to me, as I've always used aftermarket head units, in the past.


----------



## BuickGN

dlheman said:


> Hmmm, I thought Andy suggested to fire the mid/tweet upward straight to windshield.
> 
> I mean, is like those who uses coaxial full-range and place em on the dash firing upward.


I thought he said the sail panels were ideal... I know some people have bad luck firing up into the windshield but mine sounds the best that way. I tried a couple days with the tweeters firing from the pillars, the sail panels, and the kicks, all tuned by the MS8 and firing up into the windshield was by far my favorite. I even put them on the dash completely on axis with the "windshield" tune and with their separate tune and results were identical to my ears. Maybe it's because the factory tweeter placement is way up close to the windshield, I don't know.


----------



## hallsc

BuickGN said:


> I thought he said the sail panels were ideal...


I think they were talking about placement/direction of the center speaker. dlheman was asking about whether to have the mid/tweet of a 2-way center channel facing the windshield or the cabin. In my car, the plan is to have them face the cabin for simplicity of install. 

Can I use this post to say again how amazing my car sounds, with only a 3-way-front-plus-sub setup, after only one full calibration, with my MS-8? Best I have ever heard in a car in my opinion...


----------



## dlheman

Hi guys, 

Yes I was talking about centre speaker placement. The car is Nissan X-Trail model T31. It has a big storage compartment on the middle of the dashboard and easily removed for centre speaker placement. However due to stuff inside the dashboard I have to place the tweeter near the edge of the dashboard as the midbass would not fit if it is the other way around. Honestly I do not know how this would turn up to be but as they say you'll never know until you try, hence the show must go on.









And so I designed something which will look like this:









And so the speaker base was made and shape to fit the opening on the dashboard.











At the front facing the cabin is where the MS8 display will sit, allowing central display and from where the driver is sitting it will not block any view. The top cover has a big opening for the grill so no sound coming out from the speakers are blocked.









When I left the audio shop last night, the centre speaker base and housing are receiving the final touches, and ready for vinyl covering tomorrow.









The centre speakers are AVI LXD160 Mid/midbass and AVI HF30B tweeter, using 24db custom passive crossover. The same speakers are used for the front doors. Powering the centre channel is GTO 75.2 while the front speakers are powered by DLS A5. So they have around the same healthy amount of power.

Everything should be done by next Saturday, and fingers crossed it will sound great. Or else, back to the drawing board.


----------



## lavesa

kaigoss69 said:


> Some people have reported a lack of midbass when using a trunk sub. This has been an issue especially in BMWs with the midbass drivers under the seats. If you calibrate without a sub, and let the woofers play all the way down, the midbass is great, but as soon as you add the sub into the mix, the midbass just disappears. It can be helped with the EQ, but not to the level of impact of the "no sub" calibration, not even close.
> 
> After having read about the lack of sub T/A recently, and Andy's explanation that it really is not that important, I had an idea. What if I calibrated without the sub, and then added it back in post calibration, using the crossovers in my amp? So I went out this morning for this little experiment. I set the subsonic at 20Hz on the underseat 8" woofers and calibrated without a sub. I then split the signal at the 4-ch amp and high-passed the underseats at 50Hz 24dB/oct and low-passed the sub at 50Hz, 12db/Oct.
> 
> The result? - Fantastic midbass and stellar subbass, the best of both worlds!


Did you still configure a 2-Way front with the underseat subs as the low? How did you add the sub back after calibration? Can you explain exactly what you did because I have the same exact problem with my 7 series. 

I have a 4 channel amp that is pushing the underseat subs (1+2) and one 12W3V3 (3&4).


----------



## kaigoss69

lavesa said:


> Did you still configure a 2-Way front with the underseat subs as the low? How did you add the sub back after calibration? Can you explain exactly what you did because I have the same exact problem with my 7 series.
> 
> I have a 4 channel amp that is pushing the underseat subs (1+2) and one 12W3V3 (3&4).


1. Run set-up with 2-way front and no sub. Set the subsonic at 20Hz. Lo/Hi at 150Hz, 24dB/oct (just do it...). Crossovers on amp off.
2. Run calibration
3. Set the amp such that the input from ch 1&2 goes to all 4 channels
4. Enable high-pass filter on amp for underseat woofers. Start with 60Hz, 24dB/oct.
5. Enable low-pass fiter on amp for subwoofer. Start with 60Hz, 12dB/oct
Edit:
6. Set amp gains to your liking.


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> 1. Run set-up with 2-way front and no sub. Set the subsonic at 20Hz. Lo/Hi at 150Hz, 24dB/oct (just do it...). Crossovers on amp off.
> 2. Run calibration
> 3. Set the amp such that the input from ch 1&2 goes to all 4 channels
> 4. Enable high-pass filter on amp for underseat woofers. Start with 60Hz, 24dB/oct.
> 5. Enable low-pass fiter on amp for subwoofer. Start with 60Hz, 12dB/oct
> Edit:
> 6. Set amp gains to your liking.


Yes, this^^^, for now while we finish working on this level matching issue, which seems to be at it's worst in BMWs with under-seat woofers. I listened to 30 MS-8s over the last two weeks in Asia in every car imaginable (except for a BMW and a Winnebago) and nearly every one sounded good. 

For those of you who have an extra channel, you can also map your subwoofer to the front low (in a 2-or 3-way front sytem) and that will treat the subs as fronts and bypass the level matching.


----------



## lavesa

kaigoss69 said:


> 1. Run set-up with 2-way front and no sub. Set the subsonic at 20Hz. Lo/Hi at 150Hz, 24dB/oct (just do it...). Crossovers on amp off.
> 2. Run calibration
> 3. Set the amp such that the input from ch 1&2 goes to all 4 channels
> 4. Enable high-pass filter on amp for underseat woofers. Start with 60Hz, 24dB/oct.
> 5. Enable low-pass fiter on amp for subwoofer. Start with 60Hz, 12dB/oct
> Edit:
> 6. Set amp gains to your liking.


If I calibrate without the sub, how do I assign it to a channel?


----------



## kaigoss69

lavesa said:


> If I calibrate without the sub, how do I assign it to a channel?


That's the point... the sub is not assigned to any channel on the MS-8. Are the instructions not clear enough?


----------



## Sirrus

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, this^^^, for now while we finish working on this level matching issue, which seems to be at it's worst in BMWs with under-seat woofers. I listened to 30 MS-8s over the last two weeks in Asia in every car imaginable (except for a BMW and a Winnebago) and nearly every one sounded good.
> 
> For those of you who have an extra channel, you can also map your subwoofer to the front low (in a 2-or 3-way front sytem) and that will treat the subs as fronts and bypass the level matching.


I am intrigued by the idea of a 3-way front for this issue, I hadn't thought of that. I might just have to try it. The wife will be thrilled! :laugh:

Andy, should we expect to get good frequency response all the way down to 20 Hz doing this, or is there in fact some kind of attenuation happening as compared to the "target curve" we've talked about before?


----------



## 14642

^^You may want to increase the gain on the subwoofer amp by about 3 to 6dB before calibrating. Because the sweep is shorter, there's a little less resolution in the low frequency EQ, but that won't matter--there aren't any narrow peaks and dips down there. Every time I've done this it's been stellar.


----------



## lavesa

kaigoss69 said:


> 3. Set the amp such that the input from ch 1&2 goes to all 4 channels


I have one Alpine 4.150 for the underseat subs (1&2) and the 12W3 (3&4 bridged). How would I configure this so the input from 1&2 go to all 4channels? Is this a setting on the amp or should I get a Yadaptor for each RCA and put them into four channels of the MS8? This part is confusing, sorry! 

Again, sorry for my ignorance, if I don't configure the sub for a channel, how will I get sound for the sub? Will I have any control of the sub from the MS8 through the EQ or levels?


----------



## emoon3

lavesa said:


> I have one Alpine 4.150 for the underseat subs (1&2) and the 12W3 (3&4 bridged). How would I configure this so the input from 1&2 go to all 4channels? Is this a setting on the amp or should I get a Yadaptor for each RCA and put them into four channels of the MS8? This part is confusing, sorry!
> 
> Again, sorry for my ignorance, if I don't configure the sub for a channel, how will I get sound for the sub? Will I have any control of the sub from the MS8 through the EQ or levels?


I was doing this exact setup before.

There is a setting on the Alpine to determine how the signal is handled. If you're using it right now, it's probably set to 3/4 meaning channels 3 and 4 get a seperate input. You want to change that setting to 1/2 and it will send input 1 to channels 1 and 3 while input 2 goes to channels 2 and 4.


----------



## emoon3

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, this^^^, for now while we finish working on this level matching issue, which seems to be at it's worst in BMWs with under-seat woofers. I listened to 30 MS-8s over the last two weeks in Asia in every car imaginable (except for a BMW and a Winnebago) and nearly every one sounded good.
> 
> For those of you who have an extra channel, you can also map your subwoofer to the front low (in a 2-or 3-way front sytem) and that will treat the subs as fronts and bypass the level matching.


Andy, in a 3way setup, I have my under-seat woofers mapped to front low. if I mapped my sub there, what channels would I map my woofers to?


----------



## BuickGN

I figured I would post my latest experience, it has nothing to do with the current conversation but maybe it will help someone somewhere. 

I finally took a step back and reassessed my equipment. Since I installed the MS8 (going from passives) I've lost dynamics and midbass. Up front bass and overall stage height has been good.

I figured I have a pair of 15s that will play into the mid range, I made a bad decision and got the 6.5" mid bass instead of the 8" for $20 more due to ease of installation and I have a 3" dome that doesn't like to play real low.

After reading many posts on here I was trying to make my domes play as low as physically possible and the mid bass between 63 and 75hz. I've never bottomed the speakers but I've had all kinds of weird issues since the MS8 was introduced and I lowered crossover points. It was to the point the MS8 was going up for sale and I was going back to the passives. I didn't even know why I was going for the low points, I just saw everyone else doing it.

So I started over. I kept the same 20hz/6db for the subsonic, 100hz/6db for the sub to lo, 900hz/24db for the lo to mid and 5000hz/24db for the mid to hi. Also 100hz/24db for the 6.5" center.

What I've been rewarded with is number one, repeatability between tunes. The MS8 was so erratic before, now it's very consistent. Stage went from high but fuzzy to sharp and defined. Midbass and dynamics are the best I've ever experienced. Even at 100hz, the subs still sound like they're coming from up front. For this entire week I've been making up reasons to drive the car just to listen. I can finally re-calibrate and not worry about getting a bad tune. The bad part is I've been driving the 90 mile round trip to work instead of taking the company vehicle but for once I now just enjoy the music and don't even think about the system which for me is a serious win. I've been attending as many live performances as possible lately and while it's not at that level and never will be, if you close your eyes it's not completely unbelievable that you're at a live performance.

I find that when it sounds good I tend to listen at lower volumes and with less boost in the sub bass. I don't mean to do this but for some reason I tend to boost the bass and crank the volume over time when it doesn't sound right. The clarity is unreal. I no longer regret spending what I spend on the front stage and the Dyns were worth every penny. For a while, they were sounding worse than the factory speakers. Another interesting thing is at seemingly low volumes, its hard to talk over the music. Maybe less distortion??

Another huge difference is I'm not constantly adjusting everything. It sounds good on every type of music and I don't have the constant need to adjust. In fact, it's right where the auto tune left it with the exception of occasionally turning the sub level down on that rare CD that's recorded with gobs of bass. Otherwise, everything is flat which is a first since I've owned this thing.

So I probably wasn't giving the MS8 a fair chance. I guess my lesson to myself was to play each driver in it's most efficient range, there's only so much the MS8 can compensate for. This whole time it's been user error on my part. 

I never thought I would say this but the MS8 is an amazing product and for the first time I don't see myself replacing it with anything else. I can't believe what some big crossover point adjustments did to the system as a whole.


----------



## rdv

BuickGN said:


> So I started over. I kept the same 20hz/6db for the subsonic, 100hz/6db for the sub to lo, 900hz/24db for the lo to mid and 5000hz/24db for the mid to hi. Also 100hz/24db for the 6.5" center.


I had a similar experience. i was forcing my mids on a xover point of around 500. i just couldnt get it to sound good until i started experimenting with higher points. I also ended up with around 900. after that calibration was more consistent and the sound was more full. i did raise the level of the door woofers a bit (through the amp) but i could have lived with it as is already.


----------



## veritasz34

Outstanding post on this processor..I have learned alot. I plan on using this unit in the system I'm working on and can't thank you all enough for this one..Gives me a great insight before I ever get the chance to turn it on.


----------



## timelord9

hmmm. All this international success is doing little for my state of mind though 

the issue of quite serious distortion is still raising its head, and I'm getting the feeling that its related to the way that the ms8 deals with gain. 

after level setting using an SPL meter (iphone app, let me know if this is woefully inadequate), I have the gains for the midbass nearly maxed out, the gain for the sub nearly at its minimum, and the gain for the centre and midrange/tweeter at around their 2v input mark. I've been trying to hit the 70db mark, approximately, at listening position for all drivers. I've managed to increase the point that the system distorts considerably, however when switching between "processing defeat" and "processing active", the distortion is immediately apparent. Hence my earlier comment about the way the ms8 deals with gain. 

I've yet to bring the rear speakers back into the mix, however I assume that if the rears (MS8 amp) are much much louder than the fronts (external amps) then I'm going to keep running into the same problem. 

Any more thoughts? I'm not quite at the point of sending it back, but I'm not far off  Could covering the rear speakers in an attempt to attenuate them be helpful or more of a hinderance?

In answer to past questions: 
- only 1 set of rcas running from the headunit to the processor, which have been switched out with no change
- haven't yet tried running the rcas into the AUX inputs

Many thanks in advance

timelord


----------



## rdv

timelord9 said:


> after level setting using an SPL meter (iphone app, let me know if this is woefully inadequate), I have the gains for the midbass nearly maxed out, the gain for the sub nearly at its minimum, and the gain for the centre and midrange/tweeter at around their 2v input mark.


not sure if this will help since i am using a 4 channel amp for door woofers and 1 sub only. the ms8 powers the mid/tweeter combo and rear speakers. i get the best tune with all my gains down to almost minimum. if i raise the gain on the amp, the ms8 has a tendency to lower the output on the amped speakers. in fact i raised the gain the sub channel just so that ms8 will make it softer after the tune. then after the tune i raised the gain on the door woofers just a little bit based on my preferences

not sure if you tried this already but have you tried calibrating with all your gains down to minimum plus your rear speakers connected? then calibrate with volume at around 40?


----------



## rdv

I did a little experiment last night based on the discussions on calibrating without a sub. I have a 99 audi A4 that I installed an ms8 in and it powers all the cars speakers:
Seas aluminums
4” Peerless buyout woofers (I didn’t want to do any modifications to the door card)
Stock rears
Dual passive 6” bazooka. 
No center

I set the system as a 3 way 100hz 24db lo pass/ hi pass for the bazooka and peerless and 3k 24db for the peerless and seas. Subsonic set at 20hz 24db 

I have to admit it does sound better this way. It sounds cleaner/clearer now, vocals and instruments were more defined, kick drums and bass guitars were well placed on the dash. 
Admittedly you can’t get much out of a pair of 4’s and I had to raise the bass in the tone controls but I can now hear the bass coming out of them unlike before where you could feel them shaking the door card but couldn’t hear them. 

The problem I have now is the 6” bazooka in the trunk. I lost the bass rumble that I had when I had them on the sub channels and since they are part of the front 3-way setup and unamped I cant raise their level. I am going to try using the stock 6” subs on the rear deck. This might help but overall this is an option that is worth trying out.


----------



## akelu

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> while we finish working on this level matching issue




I take it this will be put out in the form of a firmware update?

Would you perhaps have any sort of rough ETA (i know you dont like giving out dates but.. still )

This issue is really affecting me so im going to need to assign the subs to the front as i dont have the external crossover ability.

Thanks!


----------



## lavesa

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, this^^^, for now while we finish working on this level matching issue, which seems to be at it's worst in BMWs with under-seat woofers. I listened to 30 MS-8s over the last two weeks in Asia in every car imaginable (except for a BMW and a Winnebago) and nearly every one sounded good.
> 
> For those of you who have an extra channel, you can also map your subwoofer to the front low (in a 2-or 3-way front sytem) and that will treat the subs as fronts and bypass the level matching.


Hi Andy,

If I only have one sub that is bridged into one MS8 channel, can I still configure for a 3-way front? I haven't tried it yet but I'm guessing I may need two channels for FL-Lo and FR-Lo.


----------



## AndyInOC

lavesa said:


> Hi Andy,
> 
> If I only have one sub that is bridged into one MS8 channel, can I still configure for a 3-way front? I haven't tried it yet but I'm guessing I may need two channels for FL-Lo and FR-Lo.


I'm going to guess that he means put a Y harness on your fl low and fr low, splitting the signal after the ms8 to your midbass amp and sub amp. That will result in a selection of no sub in the setup menu and 2 or 3 way front. Then if I am understanding correctly you kill the gain on the sub amp, run the sweeps and then bring up the gain and set crossovers on your midbass and sub channels.


----------



## Sirrus

lavesa said:


> Hi Andy,
> 
> If I only have one sub that is bridged into one MS8 channel, can I still configure for a 3-way front? I haven't tried it yet but I'm guessing I may need two channels for FL-Lo and FR-Lo.


I expect you'd need an extra channel on the MS-8. It would work for me because I don't have a center, and therefore have a free channel.

In your situation, I'd look at changing your PDX F6 4X150 configuration such that you only have one set of inputs feeding all channels. Then set the high-pass and low-pass filters on the amplifier.


----------



## lavesa

Sirrus said:


> I expect you'd need an extra channel on the MS-8. It would work for me because I don't have a center, and therefore have a free channel.
> 
> In your situation, I'd look at changing your PDX F6 4X150 configuration such that you only have one set of inputs feeding all channels. Then set the high-pass and low-pass filters on the amplifier.


I see, so I wouldn't be able to do that because I would have to lose the center channel or figure out how to run my side speakers on one channel.


----------



## akelu

Damnit.

I could handle my ms-8's internal amplifier not functioning..

But now that the screen isnt working either its kind of a bummer.

Time to send it back to america.. Siiighhhhhhhh :disappointed:


----------



## 14642

akelu said:


> Damnit.
> 
> I could handle my ms-8's internal amplifier not functioning..
> 
> But now that the screen isnt working either its kind of a bummer.
> 
> Time to send it back to america.. Siiighhhhhhhh :disappointed:


Akelu,
Please PM me your contact info. We have an office in Singapore that can probably help more quickly. Check the cable and the connections to the display first, though!


----------



## timelord9

Hi Andy

Not sure if you've seen my last few posts about distortion issues with my amplified speakers. Just wondering if its likely to be a tuning issue (in which case I can keep fiddling with gains and sweep levels til I figure it out) or if its likely to be an error (in which case I need to sort out returning it to JBL)?

Many thanks in advance

timelord


----------



## subwoofery

timelord9 said:


> hmmm. All this international success is doing little for my state of mind though
> 
> the issue of quite serious distortion is still raising its head, and I'm getting the feeling that its related to the way that the ms8 deals with gain.
> 
> after level setting using an SPL meter (iphone app, let me know if this is woefully inadequate), *I have the gains for the midbass nearly maxed out*, the gain for the sub nearly at its minimum, and the gain for the centre and midrange/tweeter at around their 2v input mark. I've been trying to hit the 70db mark, approximately, at listening position for all drivers. I've managed to increase the point that the system distorts considerably, however when switching between "processing defeat" and "processing active", the distortion is immediately apparent. Hence my earlier comment about the way the ms8 deals with gain.
> 
> I've yet to bring the rear speakers back into the mix, however I assume that if the rears (MS8 amp) are much much louder than the fronts (external amps) then I'm going to keep running into the same problem.
> 
> Any more thoughts? I'm not quite at the point of sending it back, but I'm not far off  Could covering the rear speakers in an attempt to attenuate them be helpful or more of a hinderance?
> 
> In answer to past questions:
> - only 1 set of rcas running from the headunit to the processor, which have been switched out with no change
> - haven't yet tried running the rcas into the AUX inputs
> 
> Many thanks in advance
> 
> timelord


There's your problem... 

Kevin


----------



## timelord9

thanks kevin. 

the problem has existed well before I tried level setting with an rta. The problem actually improved slightly after I did this, probably due to lowering the sub gain. 

Which all leads me to think that it IS a gain/level matching issue, rather than a fault. I'm just having trouble trying to solve it, thats all.


----------



## akelu

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Akelu,
> Please PM me your contact info. We have an office in Singapore that can probably help more quickly. Check the cable and the connections to the display first, though!


Done! leased::rockon::bowdown::beerchug:


----------



## timelord9

hmmmmmm 

more testing. I'm still getting distortion after calibration no matter what I do. It seems to come on about a minute after the music starts up for the first time. 

the issue seems to be that the ms8 is attenuating the output from the rca outputs by some 10-20db compared to either the speaker level outputs or when I bypass the unit completely. I've tried only processing the fronts (minus rears and sub) and the issue is still present. Worse in fact. 

I've plugged the headunit straight into the midbass amp (bypassing the ms8 completely) and there's no distortion at any volume, and I've had it pretty loud. So the issue isnt the headunit or the rcas. 

I've level matched as best I can, and tested the sweeps at around 65-75db. Still no love. : (

So unless its a compatibility issue between a headunit with a relatively high output (the Clarion HXD2 is upto 8v I think?) and the ms8, I am starting to think there's a fault somewhere with the unit. 

I am, of course, in the same situation as Aleku...purchased from the states with no local support, which is the price one pays for getting something well ahead of availability here... 

hmmm. Back to the drawing board I think.


----------



## [email protected]

Hey Timelord, try this one.

Calibrate only your front, then set processing off. 
Now remove the rca (only when radio off) from your tweeters amp and measure with an rta only the frequence response from your mids.
Then vice versa the Tweeters. 

Now look at the graph if theres a dip at the xover point where the tweeters and the mids should meet each other. 
If yes you have to change your crossover point, ms8 cant add something where is nothing and runs out of boost...

After that point you take the rta and use it to level match highs and mids (with processing off) and calibrate again.

Now you measure your frequence response with processing on and off. Compare the two graphs and look for plenty of boost.
3dB more means double of power need, 6dB quadruple..... (amp disorts if run out of power).
Try also a measurement a cm/inch (your choose :laugh before the speaker diaphragm of your mids and look for this boost (processing on/off).

If you find excessive boost lower it with the equalizer and look how it sounds!


----------



## kaigoss69

timelord9 said:


> hmmmmmm
> 
> more testing. I'm still getting distortion after calibration no matter what I do. It seems to come on about a minute after the music starts up for the first time.
> 
> the issue seems to be that the ms8 is attenuating the output from the rca outputs by some 10-20db compared to either the speaker level outputs or when I bypass the unit completely. I've tried only processing the fronts (minus rears and sub) and the issue is still present. Worse in fact.
> 
> I've plugged the headunit straight into the midbass amp (bypassing the ms8 completely) and there's no distortion at any volume, and I've had it pretty loud. So the issue isnt the headunit or the rcas.
> 
> I've level matched as best I can, and tested the sweeps at around 65-75db. Still no love. : (
> 
> So unless its a compatibility issue between a headunit with a relatively high output (the Clarion HXD2 is upto 8v I think?) and the ms8, I am starting to think there's a fault somewhere with the unit.
> 
> I am, of course, in the same situation as Aleku...purchased from the states with no local support, which is the price one pays for getting something well ahead of availability here...
> 
> hmmm. Back to the drawing board I think.


Have you tried using the speaker level inputs on the MS-8?


----------



## rain27

timelord9 said:


> hmmmmmm
> 
> more testing. I'm still getting distortion after calibration no matter what I do. It seems to come on about a minute after the music starts up for the first time.
> 
> the issue seems to be that the ms8 is attenuating the output from the rca outputs by some 10-20db compared to either the speaker level outputs or when I bypass the unit completely. I've tried only processing the fronts (minus rears and sub) and the issue is still present. Worse in fact.
> 
> I've plugged the headunit straight into the midbass amp (bypassing the ms8 completely) and there's no distortion at any volume, and I've had it pretty loud. So the issue isnt the headunit or the rcas.
> 
> I've level matched as best I can, and tested the sweeps at around 65-75db. Still no love. : (
> 
> So unless its a compatibility issue between a headunit with a relatively high output (the Clarion HXD2 is upto 8v I think?) and the ms8, I am starting to think there's a fault somewhere with the unit.
> 
> I am, of course, in the same situation as Aleku...purchased from the states with no local support, which is the price one pays for getting something well ahead of availability here...
> 
> hmmm. Back to the drawing board I think.


I've used the hxd2 with the ms8 and never had any distortion problems, so it is not a compatibility issue.


----------



## veritasz34

I think it could be a compatibility issue. Especially since the head unit can put up to 8 volts output of signal. I pretty sure this is waay more than what the max input voltage of the MS 8 is from the literature I have read. To me this could be the problem..


----------



## nineball

veritasz34 said:


> I think it could be a compatibility issue. Especially since the head unit can put up to 8 volts output of signal. I pretty sure this is waay more than what the max input voltage of the MS 8 is from the literature I have read. To me this could be the problem..


i believe andy said that the input max was 2.8, however the ms-8 is somehow configured to allow no more than 2.8 to enter the processing. i could be wrong but i swear i remember reading that, or something close to it.


----------



## rain27

nineball said:


> i believe andy said that the input max was 2.8, however the ms-8 is somehow configured to allow no more than 2.8 to enter the processing. i could be wrong but i swear i remember reading that, or something close to it.


This is correct. The MS-8 will limit the voltage to 2.8.

I've used several high voltage head units with an MS-8 and there has never been a problem with distortion.


----------



## veritasz34

Well with that much voltage coming in that circuit could be failing..Just a thought..


----------



## sniper5431

Plug an ipod into the aux input and test it.


----------



## 14642

8V will definitely clip the input. Put the setup CD in the head unit and begin input calibration. Turn the volume up until you get signal "high". When "high" appears, then you'll know how high you can turn the volume with a 0dB (maximum) signal. Then quit the setup. There's no need to un-EQ the head.


----------



## rain27

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> 8V will definitely clip the input. Put the setup CD in the head unit and begin input calibration. Turn the volume up until you get signal "high". When "high" appears, then you'll know how high you can turn the volume with a 0dB (maximum) signal. Then quit the setup. There's no need to un-EQ the head.


If I recall correctly, -4db is the max unclipped using this method on the HXD2. But you can double check. Again, it is no issue up to that volume.


----------



## 14642

So build a 3:1 voltage divider out of some 1% 1/4 watt resistors and stick those in the RCAs that go into the MS-8. Problem fixed. 

Oh someone will undoubtedly attempt to flame me for suggetsing that a pair of resistors should be placed in the signal path...this has happened before. My advanced reply--"Why are resistors outside the box somehow worse than resistors inside the box?"


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So build a 3:1 voltage divider out of some 1% 1/4 watt resistors and stick those in the RCAs that go into the MS-8. Problem fixed.
> 
> Oh someone will undoubtedly attempt to flame me for suggetsing that a pair of resistors should be placed in the signal path...this has happened before. My advanced reply--"Why are resistors outside the box somehow worse than resistors inside the box?"


I settled on these back when I was thinking about padding down a high voltage DAC. Might be overkill, but we're only talking a few extra dollars here.


----------



## Bluenote

This is not in-line with the flow of the current topic, however I wanted to report that I have recently achieved the best all round MS8 tune to date since purchasing in Nov 10'. I had always 'attempted' to use the recommended settings of 80hz/24db to sub and midbass but could never seem to get the bass to integrate. It was always localized to the rear! So, to compensate I tried lower x-over points typically 70hz/24db and as lower as 68hz/24db to sub/midbass. I have lived with a variation of this for over 6 months and really could not complain-but something was just not right. So, I decided to try the recommended 80hz/24db one-more-time...And it finally came through the best that its ever been. The Bass is now very present up front...but very balanced moreso than in the past tunes. What I mean by balanced is that it's not localized to the Rear nor localized to the Front...It seems to have found it's placed within the reproduction of every genre of music that I have played. 

What I ended up with was an MS8 volume of -42... All gains at 2V during calibration and raised a little less than 9/o'clock after calibration. ( on JL HD Amps) The entire sound is crisp not harsh and more detailed than I have ever had it. 

I know this is subjective and we all have different variables and unique car environments to overcome...But I never thought I would get to this stage (in this car.) BTW...with EQ I am still-learning: but I found myself doing far more cuts than boosts this time around. 

System settings are: 
Ultimo Sub: 80hz/24db/6db subsonic
Morel Midbass: 80hz/24db
CDM88/700hz to 6500Khz/24db 
Piccolo/6500Khz/24db

I also want to say thanks to Andy and every contributing member on this MS8 thread; all of the input, suggestions, questions, answers and flames are valuable and appreciated...This MS8 thread is possibly the most detailed info site in the world (at this time). Cheers!


----------



## 14642

^^ This is why I still go to work. Thanks.


----------



## akelu

Hey Andy - just letting you know i checked the cable etc for the display and its still not working - so i have sent you my contact details to get me in touch with the singapore office about getting a possible replacement.

Thanks
Matt


----------



## 14642

Hey Matt, They're going to call or email you today.


----------



## akelu

cool thanks! now thats service leased:


----------



## 14642

Check your inbox...--not your forum inbox.


----------



## thehatedguy

Andy, can I give you a call this week regarding some questions I have? I think I left a voicemail for you at one of the numbers you had listed on the other forum.


----------



## BuickGN

BuickGN said:


> I figured I would post my latest experience, it has nothing to do with the current conversation but maybe it will help someone somewhere.
> 
> I finally took a step back and reassessed my equipment. Since I installed the MS8 (going from passives) I've lost dynamics and midbass. Up front bass and overall stage height has been good.
> 
> I figured I have a pair of 15s that will play into the mid range, I made a bad decision and got the 6.5" mid bass instead of the 8" for $20 more due to ease of installation and I have a 3" dome that doesn't like to play real low.
> 
> After reading many posts on here I was trying to make my domes play as low as physically possible and the mid bass between 63 and 75hz. I've never bottomed the speakers but I've had all kinds of weird issues since the MS8 was introduced and I lowered crossover points. It was to the point the MS8 was going up for sale and I was going back to the passives. I didn't even know why I was going for the low points, I just saw everyone else doing it.
> 
> So I started over. I kept the same 20hz/6db for the subsonic, 100hz/6db for the sub to lo, 900hz/24db for the lo to mid and 5000hz/24db for the mid to hi. Also 100hz/24db for the 6.5" center.
> 
> What I've been rewarded with is number one, repeatability between tunes. The MS8 was so erratic before, now it's very consistent. Stage went from high but fuzzy to sharp and defined. Midbass and dynamics are the best I've ever experienced. Even at 100hz, the subs still sound like they're coming from up front. For this entire week I've been making up reasons to drive the car just to listen. I can finally re-calibrate and not worry about getting a bad tune. The bad part is I've been driving the 90 mile round trip to work instead of taking the company vehicle but for once I now just enjoy the music and don't even think about the system which for me is a serious win. I've been attending as many live performances as possible lately and while it's not at that level and never will be, if you close your eyes it's not completely unbelievable that you're at a live performance.
> 
> I find that when it sounds good I tend to listen at lower volumes and with less boost in the sub bass. I don't mean to do this but for some reason I tend to boost the bass and crank the volume over time when it doesn't sound right. The clarity is unreal. I no longer regret spending what I spend on the front stage and the Dyns were worth every penny. For a while, they were sounding worse than the factory speakers. Another interesting thing is at seemingly low volumes, its hard to talk over the music. Maybe less distortion??
> 
> Another huge difference is I'm not constantly adjusting everything. It sounds good on every type of music and I don't have the constant need to adjust. In fact, it's right where the auto tune left it with the exception of occasionally turning the sub level down on that rare CD that's recorded with gobs of bass. Otherwise, everything is flat which is a first since I've owned this thing.
> 
> So I probably wasn't giving the MS8 a fair chance. I guess my lesson to myself was to play each driver in it's most efficient range, there's only so much the MS8 can compensate for. This whole time it's been user error on my part.
> 
> I never thought I would say this but the MS8 is an amazing product and for the first time I don't see myself replacing it with anything else. I can't believe what some big crossover point adjustments did to the system as a whole.


Hey Andy, does this sound like a common scenario with the crossover points causing terrible sound with the MS8? I was getting distortion even at low volumes before I changed all crossover points and now it's very clean no matter what the volume is at, with no changes to gain setting. Maybe the MS8 ran out of cut and boost due to severe dips and peaks in the frequency response?


----------



## blownrunner

When doing the input setup to see what my max input volume to the MS-8 is, I get a 'signal low', then I turn up the volume a little more and instead of 'signal high' I get 'signal none'. I have tested the signal and the MS-8 is getting an input signal when this happens. Weird, what is going on here? I must have something incorrectly installed or adjusted, but I don't know what.


----------



## timelord9

BuickGN said:


> Hey Andy, does this sound like a common scenario with the crossover points causing terrible sound with the MS8? I was getting distortion even at low volumes before I changed all crossover points and now it's very clean no matter what the volume is at, with no changes to gain setting. Maybe the MS8 ran out of cut and boost due to severe dips and peaks in the frequency response?


what were the adjustments you made?


----------



## 14642

blownrunner said:


> When doing the input setup to see what my max input volume to the MS-8 is, I get a 'signal low', then I turn up the volume a little more and instead of 'signal high' I get 'signal none'. I have tested the signal and the MS-8 is getting an input signal when this happens. Weird, what is going on here? I must have something incorrectly installed or adjusted, but I don't know what.


 
What kind of car and which head unit?


----------



## 14642

BuickGN said:


> Hey Andy, does this sound like a common scenario with the crossover points causing terrible sound with the MS8? I was getting distortion even at low volumes before I changed all crossover points and now it's very clean no matter what the volume is at, with no changes to gain setting. Maybe the MS8 ran out of cut and boost due to severe dips and peaks in the frequency response?


IF you have your crossovers set well outside the bands of frequencies that your speakers will play, then MS-8 will try to boost aas much as the algorithm will allow and yes, that can create distortion. All of this trying to get speakers to play as low as possible, especially with tiny kick panel boxes, or itsy bitsy boxes on the a-pillars is part of the problem. I don't know if that's what you have going on.

A 10" woofer, so long as it isn't some 6-layer coil, super inductive monster does a much better job of playing 100Hz than a 5" or 6" in a little box--at lower distortion. Trying to get little drivers to make lots of bass is a recipe for poor performance and with the right EQ it just isn't necessary.


----------



## BuickGN

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> IF you have your crossovers set well outside the bands of frequencies that your speakers will play, then MS-8 will try to boost aas much as the algorithm will allow and yes, that can create distortion. All of this trying to get speakers to play as low as possible, especially with tiny kick panel boxes, or itsy bitsy boxes on the a-pillars is part of the problem. I don't know if that's what you have going on.
> 
> A 10" woofer, so long as it isn't some 6-layer coil, super inductive monster does a much better job of playing 100Hz than a 5" or 6" in a little box--at lower distortion. Trying to get little drivers to make lots of bass is a recipe for poor performance and with the right EQ it just isn't necessary.



That's what I did, basically raising the crossover of each driver. The 15s playing 100hz (with a Le of .12mh), the domes from 600 to 900hz and the tweets from 3,800 to 5k. I think the domes just didn't like 600hz and that has been my problem this whole time. I was trying to play everything low just because everyone else does when I have a set of subs that play up higher with no issues and domes that don't like to be played low. I was blaming the MS8 when it was my own fault with improper crossove points.


----------



## quality_sound

What's playing between 100Hz and 600Hz? I'd have the mid's HP a couple hundred Hertz above where your LP is right now. That's one of the reasons I don't like dome mids.


----------



## BuickGN

quality_sound said:


> What's playing between 100Hz and 600Hz? I'd have the mid's HP a couple hundred Hertz above where your LP is right now. That's one of the reasons I don't like dome mids.


100hz to 900hz is the midbass. Midranges play 900 to 5,000. The little 6.5 in the doors sound fine up that high. Maybe it's better that I got the smaller midbasses. I guess what I don't get is what am I gaining by crossing the midbasses down lower? If they sound good up to 900hz, why not use the larger driver to play those frequencies. I know the theory of having all frequencies come from one driver if possible, but honestly, with the stage out in front of the windshield, I can't tell where anything is coming from and vocals sound great. I went with the theory of using the largest driver for a given frequency within reason and so far it's made a huge improvement. It seems like by following the common advice around here, I initially ruined my sound and for no real reason that I can think of.


----------



## 14642

BuickGN said:


> 100hz to 900hz is the midbass. Midranges play 900 to 5,000. The little 6.5 in the doors sound fine up that high. Maybe it's better that I got the smaller midbasses. I guess what I don't get is what am I gaining by crossing the midbasses down lower? If they sound good up to 900hz, why not use the larger driver to play those frequencies. I know the theory of having all frequencies come from one driver if possible, but honestly, with the stage out in front of the windshield, I can't tell where anything is coming from and vocals sound great. I went with the theory of using the largest driver for a given frequency within reason and so far it's made a huge improvement. It seems like by following the common advice around here, I initially ruined my sound and for no real reason that I can think of.


Perfect. This is correct. There are two big criteria for crossover points. First, you should high pass speakers in their passband. That's above their resonance. This helps to minimize distortion. You should low pass speakers in their piston range (where the dispersion is wide). 

That's what GN has done here and guess what...it works!


----------



## Babs

I get the impression about 90% of the issues folks have are with the one main parameter with their system beyond driver choice/placement and amp gains.. Crossover points. If that's the case I should have some fun with mine when it's in... hopefully soon:

Fronts
D26 vifa's stock location 8th civic si sedan (powered by zx700.5)
TB W6-789E mids in-door (powered by zx700.5) <-- I suspect they'll low-pass rather high and are rather efficient

Rear-deck undecided.. Maybe a coax of some kind if I can find a solid quality kit, or just repeat the front-stage with a passive crossover set I have.. Powered by MS8 so something relatively efficient.

Older CVR12 in-trunk (powered by zx700.5) <-- I suspect/hope will be decent enough to cross 80hz+ easily enough to carry the TB mids well.

.. simple and humble. I cannot wait. Only been waiting on an MS8 for what 3-4 years now maybe? It's all on the work-bench now, and sealing/treating doors now.


----------



## One Kool Cat

Alright guys finally got the ms8 installed this weekend and Im also having a midbass issue and overly loud sub. From what I see in this thread that means my gains are too high. I tried lowering the gains on amp for my front components but it seems that the rear (ms8 powered) speakers are always louder. Should I run my sweeps at say -25 as opposed to -40 on the ms8 volume? Also when the gains were too high I would get an audible hiss out of the fronts so I backed them down a bit. Not sure how to get the illusive 2v. Amps are sundown, gain knob goes from 6v-.2v (1/3 of the way up was too high)

I tried with a decibel meter to get the output diagnostics on front speakers at 70db, ms8 vol -30 to -40. Thats when gains were at a 1/3 and I got audible hiss.

All crossovers at recommended levels in manual.

Heres a rundown of my setup:

Front Stage: Hat Clarus 6.5" using passive crossovers. Sundown 100.4 bridged to run front components.

Rear: Hat Imagine 6x9 powered by ms8

Sub: 12" FiQ powered by sundown 1500.1 wired to 1 ohm.

If you guys think I can wire this up differently to get better results before I continue to tune, Im open to suggestions. 

ex. Use 4ch to run fronts active, use 4 ch to run front and rears, wire sub for 4 ohms so its not such a big difference in power. (gain on sub amp is at min right now, cant go any lower) sub is quiet during sweeps, cant feel it but hear it.


----------



## blownrunner

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> What kind of car and which head unit?


2000 4Runner, Kenwood Head Unit. I have an AudioControl Epicenter and line driver ahead of it from when I installed my first system, but I have them turned down/off so I can't see how they would matter. I am stumped. Everything else works and I have a good tune. The directions state that when using an aftermarket H/U to not do a calibration with the CD. People on this thread say that it is a good way to find what the H/U max undistorted signal is.


----------



## BuickGN

One Kool Cat said:


> Alright guys finally got the ms8 installed this weekend and Im also having a midbass issue and overly loud sub. From what I see in this thread that means my gains are too high. I tried lowering the gains on amp for my front components but it seems that the rear (ms8 powered) speakers are always louder. Should I run my sweeps at say -25 as opposed to -40 on the ms8 volume? Also when the gains were too high I would get an audible hiss out of the fronts so I backed them down a bit. Not sure how to get the illusive 2v. Amps are sundown, gain knob goes from 6v-.2v (1/3 of the way up was too high)
> 
> I tried with a decibel meter to get the output diagnostics on front speakers at 70db, ms8 vol -30 to -40. Thats when gains were at a 1/3 and I got audible hiss.
> 
> All crossovers at recommended levels in manual.
> 
> Heres a rundown of my setup:
> 
> Front Stage: Hat Clarus 6.5" using passive crossovers. Sundown 100.4 bridged to run front components.
> 
> Rear: Hat Imagine 6x9 powered by ms8
> 
> Sub: 12" FiQ powered by sundown 1500.1 wired to 1 ohm.
> 
> If you guys think I can wire this up differently to get better results before I continue to tune, Im open to suggestions.
> 
> ex. Use 4ch to run fronts active, use 4 ch to run front and rears, wire sub for 4 ohms so its not such a big difference in power. (gain on sub amp is at min right now, cant go any lower) sub is quiet during sweeps, cant feel it but hear it.


If the sub is too loud after calibration, turn the sub gain UP before calibration. You can try lowering the midbass gain before calibration but it seems to be less effective than altering the sub gain. You can also turn the sub gain up after calibration.

What's your sub to mid crossover point? Why not take full advantage of what the MS8 has to offer and run fully active? In my setup, everything came together once I raised crossover points across the board. It was probably system specific but if you're still having these same problems a month from now you might want to give it a try.

I'm a noob still but I would try the 4ch on the front midbass and rear 6x9 and the MS8's internal amp on the front tweeters. Maybe someone can correct me if I'm off base.


----------



## Ganderson

Hi guys,

A bit late to the MS-8 party but I just purchased one from a forum member and I have a question:

I have a 2011 Mazdaspeed3 with factory Bose. Right now I am running without the factory Bose amp/processor, using the line level balanced output from the HU.

With the MS-8 it seems I have 2 options for integrating with my factory HU:

1. Solder RCA's onto the L/R OEM HU outputs into the MS-8 line level inputs.

2. Reinstall the Bose amp/processor and run from the speaker outputs into the MS-8 hi level inputs.

Is there a consensus on which method will give the better results?

I'm inclined to think that the less factory processing for the MS-8 to undo... The better, but I could be wrong.


----------



## kaigoss69

^^^ definitely use the balanced, unprocessed inputs!


----------



## nineball

Ganderson said:


> With the MS-8 it seems I have 2 options for integrating with my factory HU:
> 
> 1. Solder RCA's onto the L/R OEM HU outputs into the MS-8 line level inputs.


why solder rca ends onto speaker wire when the ms-8 has high-level inputs?


----------



## Ganderson

nineball said:


> why solder rca ends onto speaker wire when the ms-8 has high-level inputs?


The RCA ends would go onto my HU line-level outputs --> MS-8 line-in.

Are you saying the MS-8 speaker level inputs will accept a line level signal also?


----------



## Ganderson

kaigoss69 said:


> ^^^ definitely use the balanced, unprocessed inputs!


Makes sense to me. I swear I had read somewhere that the MS-8 works "best" when used post factory amp.

Thx.


----------



## nineball

Ganderson said:


> The RCA ends would go onto my HU line-level outputs --> MS-8 line-in.
> 
> Are you saying the MS-8 speaker level inputs will accept a line level signal also?


did you even glance at the manual or this thread? yes.


----------



## Ganderson

Ouch... Knew that was coming.

The manual indicates that the hi-level inputs are for speaker level signals.

This thread is a beast... I'm working on it.

Thanks for your help.


----------



## tbone587

What is the best ms-8 system volume level when calibrating the sound with a factory radio and aftermarket amps? Also can someone recomend a good crossover setting and slope for my polk audio sr6500 component speakers and eclipse titanium 12 inch sub?


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> ^^^ definitely use the balanced, unprocessed inputs!


 
Yes, this is correct. Solder RCAs onto those wires and connect them to MS-8's RCA (low level) inputs. The speaker level inputs are designed for higher voltage and include some attenuation--that's why they're called "speaker level inputs." 

The difference between a preamp signal and a speaker level signal of the same voltage is current deliver capability. Preamps are designed to drive high impedance inputs (1k ohms, for example) and amplifiers are designed to drive low impedance loads like speakers. the difference is current.


----------



## BuickGN

tbone587 said:


> What is the best ms-8 system volume level when calibrating the sound with a factory radio and aftermarket amps? Also can someone recomend a good crossover setting and slope for my polk audio sr6500 component speakers and eclipse titanium 12 inch sub?


You have a bit of reading to do. Probably the most discussed topic in this thread.


----------



## tbone587

I have read through a lot of threads and I saw this somewhere, but I cant find it now. what should the sweep db levels be when doing the input setup? I have an spl meter at work I will grab to check, but im not sure what I should be looking for. I think I read somewhere in this forum 77db or 85db, cant remember.


----------



## sassynapoleon

Ganderson said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> A bit late to the MS-8 party but I just purchased one from a forum member and I have a question:
> 
> I have a 2011 Mazdaspeed3 with factory Bose. Right now I am running without the factory Bose amp/processor, using the line level balanced output from the HU.
> 
> With the MS-8 it seems I have 2 options for integrating with my factory HU:
> 
> 1. Solder RCA's onto the L/R OEM HU outputs into the MS-8 line level inputs.
> 
> 2. Reinstall the Bose amp/processor and run from the speaker outputs into the MS-8 hi level inputs.
> 
> Is there a consensus on which method will give the better results?
> 
> I'm inclined to think that the less factory processing for the MS-8 to undo... The better, but I could be wrong.


I have a 2008 Mazda3 with a bose HU and I think it's a similar setup. I can confirm that you cannot connect the outputs from the HU to the speaker level inputs in the MS-8. Even with all 4 channels connected you don't get enough signal level. I haven't tried hooking on RCA connectors - would you connect the (-) signals to the shields and the (+) signals to the posts?


----------



## M-Dub

RCAs go into the little red and white RCA inputs.


----------



## lavesa

kaigoss69 said:


> 1. Run set-up with 2-way front and no sub. Set the subsonic at 20Hz. Lo/Hi at 150Hz, 24dB/oct (just do it...). Crossovers on amp off.
> 2. Run calibration
> 3. Set the amp such that the input from ch 1&2 goes to all 4 channels
> 4. Enable high-pass filter on amp for underseat woofers. Start with 60Hz, 24dB/oct.
> 5. Enable low-pass fiter on amp for subwoofer. Start with 60Hz, 12dB/oct
> Edit:
> 6. Set amp gains to your liking.


It looks like the Alpine PDX F6 does not have the input switch that's on the PDX 4.100 amp that allows to send channels 1+2 to 3+4. How would I configure the amp to accomplish this? I have channels 1+2 bridged to the 12" sub and 3+4 are the two 8" subs.


----------



## Ganderson

Thank you Andy & Sassynapoleon for the Info.

Sassynapoleon... Your description of the RCA wiring would be correct.


----------



## Ganderson

lavesa said:


> It looks like the Alpine PDX F6 does not have the input switch that's on the PDX 4.100 amp that allows to send channels 1+2 to 3+4. How would I configure the amp to accomplish this? I have channels 1+2 bridged to the 12" sub and 3+4 are the two 8" subs.


You would use 2 RCA y-adapters to split the 2 channels into 4.


----------



## sassynapoleon

Ganderson said:


> Thank you Andy & Sassynapoleon for the Info.
> 
> Sassynapoleon... Your description of the RCA wiring would be correct.


I might have to try that. I removed the Bose amp under the driver's seat and replaced it with a line driver and a PDX-F4. When I got the MS-8 I was hoping to replace the line driver by using the speaker level inputs but it was a no-go, so I left the line driver in the signal pathway.

Lesson learned - next car I do I'm going to bite the bullet and install everything in the compartment under the hatch. It's a pain in the ass to have to remove the powered driver's seat every time you want to tweak/troubleshoot anything. Particularly when living in a high-rise in with the car in an underground parking lot.


----------



## One Kool Cat

BuickGN said:


> If the sub is too loud after calibration, turn the sub gain UP before calibration. You can try lowering the midbass gain before calibration but it seems to be less effective than altering the sub gain. You can also turn the sub gain up after calibration.
> 
> What's your sub to mid crossover point? Why not take full advantage of what the MS8 has to offer and run fully active? In my setup, everything came together once I raised crossover points across the board. It was probably system specific but if you're still having these same problems a month from now you might want to give it a try.
> 
> I'm a noob still but I would try the 4ch on the front midbass and rear 6x9 and the MS8's internal amp on the front tweeters. Maybe someone can correct me if I'm off base.


GN thanks for the advice. I have to get caps for the tweeters to protect them. I need to find the proper size of cap? I remember reading 3,5uf or 4,7uf. I have no idea what that means. Can I go to the shack for these, or order them online?

I was able to tame the sub today adjusting gains as recommended. Ive tried sub/front at 80 and 100 on 24 slope. 80 seems to result in serious lack of bass.

No matter what I try my main problem seems to be too much midrange. Its overbearing, just like tweeters that are too bright, except its not my tweeters its the mids. This combined with lack of midbass results in a "lifeless" sound. If I lower mid on tone control in ms8 menu it gets better but also messes with the stage height.

Ive been doing sweeps at -50 on ms8 volume. The number at which you run the sweeps greatly changes eq outcome correct? 

Im happy with my end result loudness and time alignment, but not with eq.


----------



## SWRocket

Just want to thank everyone on this thread. I redid my tune yesterday based on advice and experiences from this thread and now I love my ms-8 and my sound system again 
I still have some imaging issues (the stage keeps shifting to the left and back to center) that I need to sort out but the ms-8 is working perfectly.


----------



## BMWTUBED

*Need rear fill help please*

I'm hoping I can get some advise / help on my rear fill. 
When I assign all my channels during set up and verify 
with the the audible tones, everything is good except
the rear fill. I get output from the rear drivers side, but
the rear passenger side output goes through the sub
and the sub also goes to the sub. I had everything 
installed by a local professional shop, so all the wiring 
should be correct, but what should I check / verify first?
Is there something in the set up I should try?
Thanks for any help I can get.


----------



## kaigoss69

^^^ it could be that RR was assigned to Sub1 by accident. I would re-do setup. Then I would look at the wiring next.


----------



## BMWTUBED

kaigoss69 said:


> ^^^ it could be that RR was assigned to Sub1 by accident. I would re-do setup. Then I would look at the wiring next.


I've tried every configuration for SL, SR and Sub I could think of. I always get SL speaker output and I always get Sub output out of the other two channels. I'll look at the wiring next.


----------



## BMWTUBED

BMWTUBED said:


> I've tried every configuration for SL, SR and Sub I could think of. I always get SL speaker output and I always get Sub output out of the other two channels. I'll look at the wiring next.


Have verified that chnls 3 and 4 out of the amp are indeed connected to SL and SR speakers and chnl 5 is connected to the sub. Still only getting out put from SL and the other other two chnls give me output from the Sub only. Any help is much appriciated!


----------



## kaigoss69

BMWTUBED said:


> Have verified that chnls 3 and 4 out of the amp are indeed connected to SL and SR speakers and chnl 5 is connected to the sub. Still only getting out put from SL and the other other two chnls give me output from the Sub only. Any help is much appriciated!


Swap the RCAs for ch 3 and 4 coming into your amp. Are you now getting the sub signal on the left side?


----------



## 14642

Is there any chance that MS-8's amplifier is driving the sides and the wrong speaker level outputs were used? maybe outpus 4 and 5 are assigned as subs and channel 4 speaker level output is connected to the side speaker?


----------



## BMWTUBED

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Is there any chance that MS-8's amplifier is driving the sides and the wrong speaker level outputs were used? maybe outpus 4 and 5 are assigned as subs and channel 4 speaker level output is connected to the side speaker?


I ran my home amp directly to the speaker wires hooked to channles 4&5 of the car amp. I did get output in both SL and SR. I can also verify that the MS-8 amp is not hooked to any speaker in the system. The wiring harness is still in the box. 

[/QUOTE]
Swap the RCAs for ch 3 and 4 coming into your amp. Are you now getting the sub signal on the left side? ?[/QUOTE]
I will also try this swap to see what happens.


----------



## BMWTUBED

BMWTUBED said:


> I ran my home amp directly to the speaker wires hooked to channles 4&5 of the car amp. I did get output in both SL and SR. I can also verify that the MS-8 amp is not hooked to any speaker in the system. The wiring harness is still in the box.


Swap the RCAs for ch 3 and 4 coming into your amp. Are you now getting the sub signal on the left side? ?[/QUOTE]
I will also try this swap to see what happens.[/QUOTE]

Ok, I did discover one problem w/ the wiring. One of the rear channel rca's was not engraged properly. So I pushed the cable in and now, no matter how I assign channels, I get a mono output through the side rears (both play at the same time from one channel output) and two sub outputs in a row.. I'm at a loss.


----------



## kaigoss69

BMWTUBED said:


> Swap the RCAs for ch 3 and 4 coming into your amp. Are you now getting the sub signal on the left side? ?


I will also try this swap to see what happens.[/QUOTE]

Ok, I did discover one problem w/ the wiring. One of the rear channel rca's was not engraged properly. So I pushed the cable in and now, no matter how I assign channels, I get a mono output through the side rears (both play at the same time from one channel output) and two sub outputs in a row.. I'm at a loss.[/QUOTE]

Did the installer use RCA y-splitters???


----------



## BMWTUBED

kaigoss69 said:


> I will also try this swap to see what happens.


Ok, I did discover one problem w/ the wiring. One of the rear channel rca's was not engraged properly. So I pushed the cable in and now, no matter how I assign channels, I get a mono output through the side rears (both play at the same time from one channel output) and two sub outputs in a row.. I'm at a loss.[/QUOTE]

Did the installer use RCA y-splitters???[/QUOTE]

Well, I figured out this problem. My ultra expensive installer switched channel 3/4 for the sub channel on the rca's. Hooked it up correctly and problem solved.


----------



## diynube

I feel a little bad about asking this. Firstly, here is my disclaimer:
I actually read this thread (seriously) until page 130 where I got tuckered out on the JBL MS-8 as funds were not available anyway. Now my MS-8 should be here soon and I want to get it hooked up properly. I searched the thread but did not find a definitive answer.

Finally, my question. Should I use speaker-level or line-level outputs from my after-market head unit? The head unit is a Kenwood Excelon x994 with "4 volt" preouts. I actually measured VAC with test tones be around .6V RMS at a volume level of 28 of 35. I found various advice regarding high level inputs in this thread but mostly regarding OEM head units.

My car has front 2-way components, rear deck speakers, and two subwoofers. One of my concerns is that the speaker type setting, which cannot be defeated (always on a speaker type) in the Kenwood x994 causes some sort of filtering and I may be missing bass signals. The manual is sketchy at best, but I think that this "speaker type" setting only effects the signal on the speaker-level outputs when the head unit EQ preset is turned on- so I'm hoping this won't be a problem.

Let's suppose, hypothetically, that the high-level output from the head unit is a full-range signal with good quality. Also, let's say that line-level outputs are also good quality. In this case, would high-level or line-level be preferable? Note that either case is fine with me, and I was considering running both so that it would be simple to try them both.

Please note that I get some alternator whine which I cannot purge from the system. I now use an isolator in-line on the RCAs going into my amp for the front speakers. Should I put the isolator before the MS-8? Or just say screw it and go speaker-level into the MS-8?

Thanks very much, any info or opinions are welcome.


----------



## 14642

There are trade-offs here.

First, no ground loop is possible between the head unit and MS-8 if you use the speaker level outputs and the signal voltage is higher than with the RCA outputs. However, if your head unit is designed in such a way that the outputs of the head unit can be driven into serious distortion, then that distortion will be present in the output of the system. The fix for that is simply not to turn the volume of the head unit past that point. This is really no big deal. You can run the input setup with the CD to "fix" any frequency response problems or to eliminate the head unit filtering. 

If you use the RCA inputs, there less chance that the head unit is designed to distort at the top of the volume control, but there's a greater chance for engine noise because the RCA shield is ground at the radio (has to be). The speaker output is isolated from ground by 6V and that's why there's no possibility of a ground loop.


----------



## BowDown

No matter what you do you'll run the risk of over driving the ms8.. I have noticed just cycling through my cd collection that not all CD's are mixed =. Some are really hot, some are not.. and you have to set gains to the not otherwise you run out of headroom. Just be aware.


----------



## acidbass303

diynube said:


> I feel a little bad about asking this. Firstly, here is my disclaimer:
> I actually read this thread (seriously) until page 130 where I got tuckered out on the JBL MS-8 as funds were not available anyway. Now my MS-8 should be here soon and I want to get it hooked up properly. I searched the thread but did not find a definitive answer.
> 
> Finally, my question. Should I use speaker-level or line-level outputs from my after-market head unit? The head unit is a Kenwood Excelon x994 with "4 volt" preouts. I actually measured VAC with test tones be around .6V RMS at a volume level of 28 of 35. I found various advice regarding high level inputs in this thread but mostly regarding OEM head units.
> 
> My car has front 2-way components, rear deck speakers, and two subwoofers. One of my concerns is that the speaker type setting, which cannot be defeated (always on a speaker type) in the Kenwood x994 causes some sort of filtering and I may be missing bass signals. The manual is sketchy at best, but I think that this "speaker type" setting only effects the signal on the speaker-level outputs when the head unit EQ preset is turned on- so I'm hoping this won't be a problem.
> 
> Let's suppose, hypothetically, that the high-level output from the head unit is a full-range signal with good quality. Also, let's say that line-level outputs are also good quality. In this case, would high-level or line-level be preferable? Note that either case is fine with me, and I was considering running both so that it would be simple to try them both.
> 
> Please note that I get some alternator whine which I cannot purge from the system. I now use an isolator in-line on the RCAs going into my amp for the front speakers. Should I put the isolator before the MS-8? Or just say screw it and go speaker-level into the MS-8?
> 
> Thanks very much, any info or opinions are welcome.


For the speaker type selection just use OEM with tweeter on and at the filter selection menu select "through" for front speakers, that should give you a full range signal and plug the front speaker rcas into the ms8 (use only front outs)

Those 5v ratings on these kenwoods are just on papers, in reality i never had any problems with my kenwood even at 32 out of 35 max volume. My alpine which has a 2v rating, puts out more voltage.

Ms8 is very good at resisting noise in low level inputs. Check your gains though, they might be higher than they have to be and that might be the source of the whine/noise.

Good luck!


----------



## diynube

acidbass303 said:


> For the speaker type selection just use OEM with tweeter on and at the filter selection menu select "through" for front speakers, that should give you a full range signal and plug the front speaker rcas into the ms8 (use only front outs)
> 
> Those 5v ratings on these kenwoods are just on papers, in reality i never had any problems with my kenwood even at 32 out of 35 max volume. My alpine which has a 2v rating, puts out more voltage.
> 
> Ms8 is very good at resisting noise in low level inputs. Check your gains though, they might be higher than they have to be and that might be the source of the whine/noise.
> 
> Good luck!


Okay, I'll try that speaker selection on the head-unit. I figure I'll run the speaker level outputs anyways just so I can compare the differences in the future without having to do much work.

My gains are nearly at zero, with plenty of output volume. I honestly felt that the Kenwood outputs were pretty strong at that volume level, and I know they go up much higher as you approach 35, but sadly I didn't measure it.

So considering I'm using an after-market head unit, the consensus is to go with RCA? I like the idea a "balanced-differential" high-voltage outputs, but considerations like the head-unit amplifier signal quality vs. the pre-out stage really throw a curve ball. Any thoughts?


----------



## AndyInOC

diynube said:


> Okay, I'll try that speaker selection on the head-unit. I figure I'll run the speaker level outputs anyways just so I can compare the differences in the future without having to do much work.
> 
> My gains are nearly at zero, with plenty of output volume. I honestly felt that the Kenwood outputs were pretty strong at that volume level, and I know they go up much higher as you approach 35, but sadly I didn't measure it.
> 
> So considering I'm using an after-market head unit, the consensus is to go with RCA? I like the idea a "balanced-differential" high-voltage outputs, but considerations like the head-unit amplifier signal quality vs. the pre-out stage really throw a curve ball. Any thoughts?




Yes, use the RCA outputs. I have the excelon 794 and have DSP set to bypass and internal amplification turned off. The unit will hit 4v at max volume with a tone, and like you mentioned at 28 the voltage is very low. If I remember correctly I set the gains on the amps with a 1khz tone, volume at 30 and used a DMM to get the amps set.


----------



## glidn

Ok I have been trying to find the answer for the past 5 hours. I have just installed my newly aquired MS-8. I'm running the folowing

OE - VW Golf RCD310
JBL MS-8
JVC KS8004
Factory front speaker (full range mode)
Alpine Type S 10"

If I run the input/ouput test. I receive signal low, if I adjust the volume on the radio at all. It just states none.

So I skipped this step, then selected my channels as follows

Input
Channel 1+2

Channel 1 - Front Left (full range)
Channel 2 - Front right (full range)
Channel 8 - Sub (Mono)

Left front channel plays music but right side is queit.
I swapped wiring over, RCA's. Even tried completely different RCA's etc. Still no luck.

I have tried everything I can think off but no luck.

So Now I'm playing rear speakers from radio. Front channels into MS-8, then into my Amp and finally to the speakers.

The front left channel plays but no right hand side channel, I'm honestly starting to think it's my MS-8 that is the problem.

Thanks


----------



## 14642

glidn said:


> Ok I have been trying to find the answer for the past 5 hours. I have just installed my newly aquired MS-8. I'm running the folowing
> 
> OE - VW Golf RCD310
> JBL MS-8
> JVC KS8004
> Factory front speaker (full range mode)
> Alpine Type S 10"
> 
> If I run the input/ouput test. I receive signal low, if I adjust the volume on the radio at all. It just states none.
> 
> So I skipped this step, then selected my channels as follows
> 
> Input
> Channel 1+2
> 
> Channel 1 - Front Left (full range)
> Channel 2 - Front right (full range)
> Channel 8 - Sub (Mono)
> 
> Left front channel plays music but right side is queit.
> I swapped wiring over, RCA's. Even tried completely different RCA's etc. Still no luck.
> 
> I have tried everything I can think off but no luck.
> 
> So Now I'm playing rear speakers from radio. Front channels into MS-8, then into my Amp and finally to the speakers.
> 
> The front left channel plays but no right hand side channel, I'm honestly starting to think it's my MS-8 that is the problem.
> 
> Thanks


Look closely at your input and output connections. 1 and 2 are next to each other rather than one on top of the other.


----------



## blntydrm

Hi, my name is Bill

I purchased a MS-8 about year ago.It was "professionally" installed at 6thAve.Within the past year, i never satisfied with my system sound so i decided to take a look at the wiring. After reading many posts on this thread, i start thinking there's a problem in the wiring. Because i tried all the possible setting suggestions in the thread,however the sound quality still sounds horrible to me.

My car is a 2004 BMW 325i Sedan and my system includes 2 sets of 2way Components in the front (5.25'' MB Quart PVI213) and 2 sets of Components in the rear (6.5'' MB Quart PVI216 - tweeters on the rear door panel), an Alpine PDX-5 amp, 8'' sub in the trunk and JBL MS-8.


When i look at the wiring, the first thing i saw that did not seem right was; there were 8 channels (front tweeters-mids and rear tweeters-mids) coming out from the OEM amp, going into the MS-8 Hi-Level inputs.(yes all of them) and 6 RCA's coming out from the MS-8 into the PDX-5's inputs(Ch1-2,3-4 and sub L+R). And from the PDX-5's speaker outputs (Ch1-2 , Ch3-4)to the Xovers and then into the speakers.

I don't think this is the correct wiring. I know MS-8 is need only FL and FR signals and i am *interested in fixing it all myself. What do you suggest is the best wiring option for this system? I have couple of questions;

1) How to connect component speakers in one channel into MS-8? I'm getting front left tweeter and mid signal from the OEM amp,put Xover and create 1 channel right? and do the same thing for the front right?

2) How can i power the rear components? 

I never worked with car audio before but i'm good with wiring like home theather systems.So with a little help with specific instructions i think i can fix this. I also have the wiring color codes for my car.

Please help me to fix this.I want to enjoy my system. Thank you.


----------



## Florida Rep

blntydrm said:


> Hi, my name is Bill
> 
> I purchased a MS-8 about year ago.It was "professionally" installed at 6thAve.Within the past year, i never satisfied with my system sound so i decided to take a look at the wiring. After reading many posts on this thread, i start thinking there's a problem in the wiring. Because i tried all the possible setting suggestions in the thread,however the sound quality still sounds horrible to me.
> 
> My car is a 2004 BMW 325i Sedan and my system includes 2 sets of 2way Components in the front (5.25'' MB Quart PVI213) and 2 sets of Components in the rear (6.5'' MB Quart PVI216 - tweeters on the rear door panel), an Alpine PDX-5 amp, 8'' sub in the trunk and JBL MS-8.
> 
> 
> When i look at the wiring, the first thing i saw that did not seem right was; there were 8 channels (front tweeters-mids and rear tweeters-mids) coming out from the OEM amp, going into the MS-8 Hi-Level inputs.(yes all of them) and 6 RCA's coming out from the MS-8 into the PDX-5's inputs(Ch1-2,3-4 and sub L+R). And from the PDX-5's speaker outputs (Ch1-2 , Ch3-4)to the Xovers and then into the speakers.
> 
> I don't think this is the correct wiring. I know MS-8 is need only FL and FR signals and i am *interested in fixing it all myself. What do you suggest is the best wiring option for this system? I have couple of questions;
> 
> 1) How to connect component speakers in one channel into MS-8? I'm getting front left tweeter and mid signal from the OEM amp,put Xover and create 1 channel right? and do the same thing for the front right?
> 
> 2) How can i power the rear components?
> 
> I never worked with car audio before but i'm good with wiring like home theather systems.So with a little help with specific instructions i think i can fix this. I also have the wiring color codes for my car.
> 
> Please help me to fix this.I want to enjoy my system. Thank you.


Be careful as you might need all inputs for a full signal. 

What are you not happy about? 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## blntydrm

Florida Rep, thank you for your reply,

I checked the JBL web site specifically for my car and it shows only front channels that i can use as the source for the signal. I'm just assuming my wiring is not correct beacuse i read alot about MS-8 and the manual says just Front signals. Now i'm really not sure that i really need the all inputs or just the fronts. As i said, i don't know too much about car audio. 

Can anyone confirm that i can use all inputs from my OEM amp to get a full signal?

Sound is not real, no mids ,bass and tweets loud and distorts. Amp gains at about 2v,sweeps at -35,-40,-45,-50. Believe me, most of the time i cant even listen my system for 15-20 mins. And the guy who installed the system, wasn't look sure what he's doing and installation took almost 10 hrs.


----------



## kaigoss69

blntydrm said:


> Florida Rep, thank you for your reply,
> 
> I checked the JBL web site specifically for my car and it shows only front channels that i can use as the source for the signal. I'm just assuming my wiring is not correct beacuse i read alot about MS-8 and the manual says just Front signals. Now i'm really not sure that i really need the all inputs or just the fronts. As i said, i don't know too much about car audio.
> 
> Can anyone confirm that i can use all inputs from my OEM amp to get a full signal?
> 
> Sound is not real, no mids ,bass and tweets loud and distorts. Amp gains at about 2v,sweeps at -35,-40,-45,-50. Believe me, most of the time i cant even listen my system for 15-20 mins. And the guy who installed the system, wasn't look sure what he's doing and installation took almost 10 hrs.


From what it sounds like, the wiring is your problem. I'm not too familiar with the e36 but you need to find out whether the signal from the OEM head unit is digital or analog. If it is analog you should tap the radio's full-range balanced outputs instead of the amp's processed outputs. It'll work either way, but the balanced signal is superior. Then you need to make sure that you only connect enough inputs for a full range stereo signal. So if the input signal (either from head unit or OEM amp) is split into tweeter/mid/woofer, you would need 6 inputs channels and if it is tweeter/woofer you only need 4. The input for the tweeters goes on channels 1 and 2, the mids on channels 3 and 4 and the woofers on channels 7 and 8. If you use full-range balanced inputs, you only need channels 1 and 2 for inputs, this time though through the RCAs and not the high-levels.


----------



## 14642

blntydrm said:


> Hi, my name is Bill
> 
> I purchased a MS-8 about year ago.It was "professionally" installed at 6thAve.Within the past year, i never satisfied with my system sound so i decided to take a look at the wiring. After reading many posts on this thread, i start thinking there's a problem in the wiring. Because i tried all the possible setting suggestions in the thread,however the sound quality still sounds horrible to me.
> 
> My car is a 2004 BMW 325i Sedan and my system includes 2 sets of 2way Components in the front (5.25'' MB Quart PVI213) and 2 sets of Components in the rear (6.5'' MB Quart PVI216 - tweeters on the rear door panel), an Alpine PDX-5 amp, 8'' sub in the trunk and JBL MS-8.
> 
> 
> When i look at the wiring, the first thing i saw that did not seem right was; there were 8 channels (front tweeters-mids and rear tweeters-mids) coming out from the OEM amp, going into the MS-8 Hi-Level inputs.(yes all of them) and 6 RCA's coming out from the MS-8 into the PDX-5's inputs(Ch1-2,3-4 and sub L+R). And from the PDX-5's speaker outputs (Ch1-2 , Ch3-4)to the Xovers and then into the speakers.
> 
> I don't think this is the correct wiring. I know MS-8 is need only FL and FR signals and i am *interested in fixing it all myself. What do you suggest is the best wiring option for this system? I have couple of questions;
> 
> 1) How to connect component speakers in one channel into MS-8? I'm getting front left tweeter and mid signal from the OEM amp,put Xover and create 1 channel right? and do the same thing for the front right?
> 
> 2) How can i power the rear components?
> 
> I never worked with car audio before but i'm good with wiring like home theather systems.So with a little help with specific instructions i think i can fix this. I also have the wiring color codes for my car.
> 
> Please help me to fix this.I want to enjoy my system. Thank you.


I'll be happy to help you, but I need to know a little more about the original factory system. Was it the 6-speaker system or the Logic7 system? Did it have woofers under the seats?


----------



## Technic

blntydrm said:


> Hi, my name is Bill
> 
> I purchased a MS-8 about year ago.It was "professionally" installed at 6thAve.Within the past year, i never satisfied with my system sound so i decided to take a look at the wiring. After reading many posts on this thread, i start thinking there's a problem in the wiring. Because i tried all the possible setting suggestions in the thread,however the sound quality still sounds horrible to me.
> 
> My car is a* 2004 BMW 325i Sedan *and my system includes 2 sets of 2way Components in the front (5.25'' MB Quart PVI213) and 2 sets of Components in the rear (6.5'' MB Quart PVI216 - tweeters on the rear door panel), an Alpine PDX-5 amp, 8'' sub in the trunk and JBL MS-8.
> 
> 
> When i look at the wiring, the first thing i saw that did not seem right was; there were 8 channels (front tweeters-mids and rear tweeters-mids)* coming out from the OEM amp*, going into the MS-8 Hi-Level inputs.(yes all of them) and 6 RCA's coming out from the MS-8 into the PDX-5's inputs(Ch1-2,3-4 and sub L+R). And from the PDX-5's speaker outputs (Ch1-2 , Ch3-4)to the Xovers and then into the speakers.


Too late to get your install money back, but it can be fixed. 

Your "installer" should have removed the OEM amp completely, terminate the front OEM HU outputs (at the OEM OEM amp connector in the car) with RCA and use the MS-8 front RCA inputs. Using the balanced outputs of the OEM HU directly into the MS-8 RCA inputs always sounds much better than using input setup and high level signals. 



> I don't think this is the correct wiring. I know MS-8 is need only FL and FR signals and i am *interested in fixing it all myself. What do you suggest is the best wiring option for this system? I have couple of questions;
> 
> 1) How to connect component speakers in one channel into MS-8? I'm getting front left tweeter and mid signal from the OEM amp,put Xover and create 1 channel right? and do the same thing for the front right?


The front and rear speakers of the E46 have 2 individual channels each, the woofer and the tweeter. That alone will take all 8 output channels of the MS-8, therefore you will need separate 2-way crossovers for the front and the rear to then only use 4 output channels of the MS-8.



> 2) How can i power the rear components?


See above.



> I never worked with car audio before but i'm good with wiring like home theather systems.So with a little help with specific instructions i think i can fix this. I also have the wiring color codes for my car.
> 
> Please help me to fix this.I want to enjoy my system. Thank you.


Disregard the front mid pins in the diagram below, BMW quit using them after about 2002 and went with a 2-channel outputs front and rear (tweeter and woofer) with both the HiFi and the Harman Kardon system.


----------



## blntydrm

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'll be happy to help you, but I need to know a little more about the original factory system. Was it the 6-speaker system or the Logic7 system? Did it have woofers under the seats?


Hi Andy,
My car has 10 speakers originally. Tweet,mid,woofer on front doors(6),tweeters on rear doors(2) and 2 speakers on rear deck. But couple years ago I change the stock speakers and installed 2 sets of components in the front and rear (before the ms-8). Original Front mid is not connected. I'm using 2 set 2way components in front and another 2set 2way components in rear. I don't have L7. I'm using my OEM radio(e46 business cd).


----------



## blntydrm

Technic said:


> Too late to get your install money back, but it can be fixed.
> 
> Your "installer" should have removed the OEM amp completely, terminate the front OEM HU outputs (at the OEM OEM amp connector in the car) with RCA and use the MS-8 front RCA inputs. Using the balanced outputs of the OEM HU directly into the MS-8 RCA inputs always sounds much better than using input setup and high level signals.



Hi Technic,
I think I have the color codes and amp pin numbers for OEM HU outputs. There's 2 sets of fronts (L+R) and rears (L+R). I'm just using front HU outputs, soldering RCA's and into the MS-8 RCA input 1&2 right?


----------



## kaigoss69

blntydrm said:


> Hi Technic,
> I think I have the color codes and amp pin numbers for OEM HU outputs. There's 2 sets of fronts (L+R) and rears (L+R). I'm just using front HU outputs, soldering RCA's and into the MS-8 RCA input 1&2 right?


Yes, that would be the case...



kaigoss69 said:


> If you use full-range balanced inputs, you only need channels 1 and 2 for inputs, this time though through the RCAs and not the high-levels.


----------



## blntydrm

Thank you very much to all of you.
Actually I looked at the wiring again couple hrs ago. I *saw that oem outputs from HU. They're going into the oem amp and there's connectors on every each of them. Looks like they cut them before and then put it together again. Maybe "the installer" wasn't sure.
So all I have to do is ,disconnect the connectors from all of them and take the fronts into the MS-8 RCA input 1&2. I think I can do this and hopefully solve my problem. I'm going to try this and I'll report back in couple of days.
Thanks again.


----------



## akelu

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> For those of you who have an extra channel, you can also map your subwoofer to the front low (in a 2-or 3-way front sytem) and that will treat the subs as fronts and bypass the level matching.





Hey Andy

Just curious on some things regarding this

a) Will this time align the sub to the front now that its treated as a front speaker?

b) Will sub volume controll still work?

Thanks


----------



## Vitty

If I calibrate my system using the included CD via my head unit will it sound better to hook my Zune up to my head unit aux input or would it sound better to hook my Zune up through the MS-8 aux input? Is the MS-8 aux input tuned the same as the main input or how does that work?


----------



## 14642

akelu said:


> Hey Andy
> 
> Just curious on some things regarding this
> 
> a) Will this time align the sub to the front now that its treated as a front speaker?
> 
> b) Will sub volume controll still work?
> 
> Thanks


Yes and Yes.


----------



## 14642

Vitty said:


> If I calibrate my system using the included CD via my head unit will it sound better to hook my Zune up to my head unit aux input or would it sound better to hook my Zune up through the MS-8 aux input? Is the MS-8 aux input tuned the same as the main input or how does that work?


I don't think you'll hear much of a difference. I'd probably plug it into MS-8, unless your radio includes iPod control, which would be far more convenient.


----------



## blntydrm

blntydrm said:


> Thank you very much to all of you.
> Actually I looked at the wiring again couple hrs ago. I *saw that oem outputs from HU. They're going into the oem amp and there's connectors on every each of them. Looks like they cut them before and then put it together again. Maybe "the installer" wasn't sure.
> So all I have to do is ,disconnect the connectors from all of them and take the fronts into the MS-8 RCA input 1&2. I think I can do this and hopefully solve my problem. I'm going to try this and I'll report back in couple of days.
> Thanks again.


Ok, i did the wiring. Now, FL and FR is coming from stock HU to the MS-8 RCA inputs. Definitely changed the sound quality. Mids are much better now but still something is missing in the sound or my settings not right.

Im using BMW E46 stock HU, MS-8, Alpine PDX5 amp. PDX5 powers everything. In setup, I'm choosing 1 way front and 1 way sides (for rears).*

-Fronts- MB Quart PVI-213 5.25" components (with passive xovers-Ch 1-2)

-Rears- MB Quart PVI-216 6.5" components ( with passive xovers - Ch 3-4)

-8" sub in trunk. (Ch 8)

If I power the tweeters from MS-8 and power other speakers from PDX5,without the passive crossovers, can I get better sound quality? and what can you suggest for best setup for this equipment ?


----------



## diynube

blntydrm said:


> If I power the tweeters from MS-8 and power other speakers from PDX5,without the passive crossovers, can I get better sound quality? and what can you suggest for best setup for this equipment ?


It is generally desirable to run speakers actively. Passive crossovers decrease sound quality. The problem is, without the right tools, running an active setup is difficult. The MS-8 makes it easy. I get my MS-8 in tomorrow and will definitely be running the tweets in my component set off the MS-8 amp. I like to marvel at crossovers like those included with Hertz Mille speakers, only to think how pointless they are if you run the speakers actively with an MS-8...

I want an MS-8 type device for the home, then I would run my 3-way floor-standing speakers actively. In fact, I'm tempted to just try it with an MS-8 to hear how it sounds, but it would be quite a bit of effort just for an experiment.
JBL, are you listening? In-home MS-8 please!


----------



## subwoofery

diynube said:


> It is generally desirable to run speakers actively. *Passive crossovers decrease sound quality*. The problem is, without the right tools, running an active setup is difficult. The MS-8 makes it easy. I get my MS-8 in tomorrow and will definitely be running the tweets in my component set off the MS-8 amp. I like to marvel at crossovers like those included with Hertz Mille speakers, only to think how pointless they are if you run the speakers actively with an MS-8...
> 
> I want an MS-8 type device for the home, then I would run my 3-way floor-standing speakers actively. In fact, I'm tempted to just try it with an MS-8 to hear how it sounds, but it would be quite a bit of effort just for an experiment.
> JBL, are you listening? In-home MS-8 please!


Err... NO! 

Run of the mill sets that comes with 95% of the car audio sets, I'd say yes. But there's a few that either won't degrade the sound or make it sound more balanced. 
If you're running active for the T/A adjustability then I'd rather use a passive set that has Bi-ampping capability. 

Focal implements good knowledge in their passive Xover. I know it's true that most people on this forum won't necessarily find that their passive is good but for the majority of people that don't use an external DSP, their passive is like GOLD  One flick of a button and the driver's side is EQed to make up for the off-axis response and create an equal loudness with the passenger's side <-- this of course is for a 1 seat soundstage 

If you read Patrick Bateman's point of view on passives, he explain in details what CAN be done with a passive that an active setup WON'T do... 

Biggest problem if you want to make your own passive is that you need the time, the equipment, the knowledge and the money to make it right... 

Kelvin


----------



## blownrunner

glidn said:


> If I run the input/ouput test. I receive signal low, if I adjust the volume on the radio at all. It just states none.


Interesting, in that my MS-8 does exactly the same thing. The manual states that if you are using an aftermarket H/U with full range RCA outputs to skip this input calibration step, so maybe this is why it happens, but I cannot be sure. I start with the volume all the way down and the display reads 'signal none'. Turn it up more and the signal reads 'signal good' / 'volume low'. Turn up the H/U more and it reads 'signal none' again. Not a big deal, but people state that when the display reads 'signal high' you can make a note of the H/U volume level so you know when you are clipping the signal.

I think the reason for this is when I was doing the setup, I had the sound processor on my Kenwood H/U on 'natural' instead of 'user'. The manual states that all adjustments on the H/U need to be bypassed. To prove this, if you run the right channel into channels one and two the display will read 'no signal', and ditto if you do this with the left. So I suspect in my case, the Kenwood was putting some of the left signal in the right channel and some of the right channel into the left channel when the sound fields are engaged. 

While I believe that the MS-8 cuts down considerable time time in the tuning side of the install, the installation of the MS-8 is very critical. Installing an RCA in the wrong place or doing something stupid like I did can make you believe that the MS-8 is the culprit, but it seems when reading through these posts something else is going on.


----------



## Neil_J

Andy,

Sorry if this has been asked before, I searched but turned up empty. I would like to run full-active 24 dB crossovers, but I'm out of channels. I am thinking about using a digital 24 dB/octave crossover with mids and tweets sharing an ms8 channel, but I'm not sure if it's dsp processing time will confuse the MS-8 (e.g. A few extra milliseconds on the mids and tweets might make it hard to integrate with the midbass and sub). My setup is as follows:

1 front left mid/tweet, HAT L3SE and L1 Pro R2
2 front right mid/tweet, HAT L3SE and L1 Pro R2
3 front left midbass, HAT L6SE
4 front right midbass, HAT L6SE
5 rear(side) left, Tang Band 3" full-range
6 rear(side) right, Tang Band 3" full-range
7 front center mid/tweet, HAT L3SE and L1 Pro R2
8 sub, JL 12W7

I would simply use a cap in series with the tweeter, but my fear is that the L3's won't roll off where I want them to. If I used an Audio Control DQXS or a Behringer 2496, I could set the mid rolloff anywhere I choose, e.g. 4 or 5 khz, with a steeper slope than the cap.

Are there any problems with doing this, other than added cost or complexity? I'm an engineer control freak type (in the test equipment/verification field), I'm not worried about a little extra setup time or extra wiring.


----------



## 14642

Neil,
MS-8 will delay the other channels to accommodate the additional delay in your DSP. You could also consider an MS-A1004 to drive those. It was designed to do this.


----------



## thehatedguy

Andy, you can send 4 of those 4 channels to me if you have any extras . I could get rid of my passives with them.


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## 14642

Sure. How about if walk there and deliver them myself?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sure. How about if walk there and deliver them myself?


Me me me!! No need to walk though, horse and buggy will be fine.


----------



## thehatedguy

That would be awesome! You could hear the new and improved setup with the midranges in the doors like we talked about a few weeks back.




Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sure. How about if walk there and deliver them myself?


----------



## Neil_J

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Neil,
> MS-8 will delay the other channels to accommodate the additional delay in your DSP.


Just curious, what is the maximum time in milliseconds that the MS-8 can delay a channel?



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> You could also consider an MS-A1004 to drive those. It was designed to do this.


The MS-A1004 looks nice, but it's only 4 channels (I need 3x mids and 3x tweets). I would love to just get a Zed Leviathan II (6ch w/24 dB xovers) but it simply will not fit in the hatch area of my car. Space is a premium (2011 MINI Cooper S). I'm not aware of any small six-channel amp with integrated 24dB crossovers, which is making a no-compromise active system very difficult.

Not that there's a market for it or anything, but IMO an amp "made for the MS-8" would have three tiny tweeter channels at say 25W RMS (no point in wasting money/heatsink weight running a single tweet off 75-150W), three midrange channels at 75-150W. Add an analog active 24dB/oct crossovers, LP for mids and HP for tweets (no need for a DSP here, we got the MS-8 for that). Run the rears off the MS-8 and the sub off a dedicated amp. Make it fit in an MS-8 size enclosure. Sell for $500-650, with an included six-RCA cable that goes between MS-8 and amp. Presto, instant active 11-channel L7 setup with two silver boxes and some speaker wire. Hype it and wait for the forum boner to get raging hard, skip to step 3.


----------



## kmbkk

Man I want one of these!


----------



## jbradle7

*JBL MS-8 in Audi A4 (B8)*

I apologize if this information is already contained somewhere in the 240 pages of this thread but I'm only up to page 150 so far and I'm too anxious to wait on this post.

I have a 2010 Audi A4 with the ten-speaker Concert audio system installed. I'm planning to add an MS-8 to my factory set-up and have been trying to read a lot and get a good upgrade plan in place before I get too far into the project.

I'm a novice who has been tinkering with car audio since the early 90's, but honestly, I'm ignorant to a lot of the discussions in this thread. I have a lot of questions but for now I'll just ask one basic question and then hopefully as I read more into this thread the others will be answered:

Has anyone installed an MS-8 into their A4 (B8)? If so could you please reply to this post or PM me; I'm very interested to see what your experience has been with the MS-8 and what specific system set-up you are using (speakers, amps, etc.) and how the results have been for you.

Thanks in advance!
J


----------



## NWS Alpine

I am trying to figure out my build for my Ford Edge Sport on order and the MS-8 will be used for sure. I am going to use a JL HD900/5 for my amp to keep it hidden. I want to run it active on the components with the HAT imagine I61-2 up front. I want to run a center channel and my car has a 3.5" already in the dash so I will be replacing that. I also want to add some rear fill and have 2 options. I can run something in the rear doors 6x9 or it has two 3.5" speakers on the top of the D pillars. Sub is a JL stealthbox with one 10w3v3-2.

Does the MS-8 like rear door 6x9 for fill in a small SUV or the 3.5" d pillars location way back. Need to figure out what other speakers to use with this system and the HAT components.

Thinking of running it this way:

MS-8
Chan 1 --> JL AMP --> LF Hi --> HAT tweeter
Chan 2 --> JL AMP --> LF mid --> HAT mid
Chan 3 --> MS8 AMP --> Center --> No idea yet
Chan 4 --> JL Amp --> RF Hi --> HAT tweeter
Chan 5 --> JL AMP --> RF mid -- HAT mid
Chan 6 --> MS8 AMP --> L side --> Rear door 6x9 or 3.5" d pillar
Chan 7 --> MS8 AMP --> R side --> Rear door 6x9 or 3.5" d pillar

Is it ok to run that full 100W on the tweeters or is that a waste? Should I run the rear doors or d pillars off the JL amp and the tweeters and center off the MS-8? Just trying to get the most out of the stock locations and the MS-8 processing.


----------



## Neil_J

NWS Alpine said:


> Is it ok to run that full 100W on the tweeters or is that a waste? Should I run the rear doors or d pillars off the JL amp and the tweeters and center off the MS-8? Just trying to get the most out of the stock locations and the MS-8 processing.


I'm new here, but... I was talking to Scott Buwalda of Hybrid Audio last week about the same thing. Some would argue that 100W for a tweeter is wasteful, it may only use 10-25 watts depending on high-pass cutoff point and other things. Other SQ nuts would gladly run a tweeter off 100W for more "headroom".. meaning you will most likely never hear amp distortion from that channel since the amp is not being flexed very hard.

If you're looking for a killer front-stage, and plan on keeping the factory rear speakers just as rear-fill, keep the front tweeters on the JL 100W and the rears on the 20W MS-8 channels. Or, if you plan on upgrading the rear speakers to some very inefficient ~85 dB coaxials or full-ranges like the TB3's or 4's, you may want to put them on the 100W channels and the tweets on the 20W channels, it would probably still sound pretty good that way. Sounds like you have a great setup though, good luck..


----------



## NWS Alpine

Neil_J said:


> I'm new here, but... I was talking to Scott Buwalda of Hybrid Audio last week about the same thing. Some would argue that 100W for a tweeter is wasteful, it may only use 10-25 watts depending on high-pass cutoff point and other things. Other SQ nuts would gladly run a tweeter off 100W for more "headroom".. meaning you will most likely never hear amp distortion from that channel since the amp is not being flexed very hard.
> 
> If you're looking for a killer front-stage, and plan on keeping the factory rear speakers just as rear-fill, keep the front tweeters on the JL 100W and the rears on the 20W MS-8 channels. Or, if you plan on upgrading the rear speakers to some very inefficient ~85 dB coaxials or full-ranges like the TB3's or 4's, you may want to put them on the 100W channels and the tweets on the 20W channels, it would probably still sound pretty good that way. Sounds like you have a great setup though, good luck..


The more I read the more it looks like I need to pay much more attention to the center channel. I guess I will have to wait and see what I can fit into the stock opening in the dash. It has a 3.5" but I might be able to fit something larger with modification. I do not want to cut the dash but will modify inside. I might need to just suck it up and add a JBL MS-A1004 or JL HD600/4 and run the components off that. Then use HD900/5 to run the sub, center, and rears. I want to replace all the speakers being used with HAT speakers. Maybe run coaxial in the rear doors and forget about the 3.5" speakers in the D pillars.

I need to try an fit a ~5" coaxial in the center channel it seems to realy shine with the MS-8 and the front components. Fronts would have 150w each and can bridge two channels on the HD900/5 to put 200W to the front center. Might be overkill but room to expand the speakers later down the road.

EDIT: After emailing with Scott I think I might go this route for now.

MS-8
Chan 1 --> JL AMP --> LF Hi --> Imagine tweeter 100W
Chan 2 --> JL AMP --> LF mid --> Imagine 6.5" mid 100W
Chan 3 --> MS8 AMP --> Center --> In dash stock location Legatia L3 20W
Chan 4 --> JL Amp --> RF Hi --> Imagine tweeter 100W
Chan 5 --> JL AMP --> RF mid -- Imagine 6.5" mid 100W
Chan 6 --> MS8 AMP --> L side --> Rear door Legatia L3 20W
Chan 7 --> MS8 AMP --> R side --> Rear door Legatia L3 20W
Chan 8 --> JL AMP --> Sub --> Stealthbox 10w3v3-2 500W


----------



## thehatedguy

One mid moved to the upper door from the pillars...big big difference. Working on the other side this weekend.

I would listen to everything Andy says to do. Every time I do what he says, my MS-8 experience gets better and better.


----------



## t3sn4f2

NWS Alpine said:


> The more I read the more it looks like I need to pay much more attention to the center channel. I guess I will have to wait and see what I can fit into the stock opening in the dash. It has a 3.5" but I might be able to fit something larger with modification. I do not want to cut the dash but will modify inside. I might need to just suck it up and add a JBL MS-A1004 or JL HD600/4 and run the components off that. Then use HD900/5 to run the sub, center, and rears. I want to replace all the speakers being used with HAT speakers. Maybe run coaxial in the rear doors and forget about the 3.5" speakers in the D pillars.
> 
> I need to try an fit a ~5" coaxial in the center channel it seems to realy shine with the MS-8 and the front components. Fronts would have 150w each and can bridge two channels on the HD900/5 to put 200W to the front center. Might be overkill but room to expand the speakers later down the road.
> 
> EDIT: After emailing with Scott I think I might go this route for now.
> 
> MS-8
> Chan 1 --> JL AMP --> LF Hi --> Imagine tweeter 100W
> Chan 2 --> JL AMP --> LF mid --> Imagine 6.5" mid 100W
> *Chan 3 --> MS8 AMP --> Center --> In dash stock location Legatia L3 20W*
> Chan 4 --> JL Amp --> RF Hi --> Imagine tweeter 100W
> Chan 5 --> JL AMP --> RF mid -- Imagine 6.5" mid 100W
> Chan 6 --> MS8 AMP --> L side --> Rear door Legatia L3 20W
> Chan 7 --> MS8 AMP --> R side --> Rear door Legatia L3 20W
> Chan 8 --> JL AMP --> Sub --> Stealthbox 10w3v3-2 500W


Sounds like a safe setup to me.


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> One mid moved to the upper door from the pillars...big big difference. Working on the other side this weekend.
> 
> I would listen to everything Andy says to do. Every time I do what he says, my MS-8 experience gets better and better.


How high in the door are we talking here? As high as here?: 









Do you have it flat in your door or angled to avoid the steering wheel? 

Kelvin


----------



## thehatedguy

About that high. Mine are/will be flat against the door.


----------



## kaigoss69

NWS Alpine said:


> MS-8
> Chan 1 --> JL AMP --> LF Hi --> Imagine tweeter 100W
> Chan 2 --> JL AMP --> LF mid --> Imagine 6.5" mid 100W
> Chan 3 --> MS8 AMP --> Center --> In dash stock location Legatia L3 20W
> Chan 4 --> JL Amp --> RF Hi --> Imagine tweeter 100W
> Chan 5 --> JL AMP --> RF mid -- Imagine 6.5" mid 100W
> Chan 6 --> MS8 AMP --> L side --> Rear door Legatia L3 20W
> Chan 7 --> MS8 AMP --> R side --> Rear door Legatia L3 20W
> Chan 8 --> JL AMP --> Sub --> Stealthbox 10w3v3-2 500W


I tried running the L3*SE*s off of the MS-8 amp and I was getting some funky distortion from the left mid. Now with 150WPC the problem is gone. 20W is not enough power for the L3SE, or the L3 I would assume. If I can make a recommendation, go with the L3SE as the center, and go cheap on the sides (coaxials). There is absolutely no value added by going with high-grade speakers for sides or rears.


----------



## NWS Alpine

kaigoss69 said:


> I tried running the L3*SE*s off of the MS-8 amp and I was getting some funky distortion from the left mid. Now with 150WPC the problem is gone. 20W is not enough power for the L3SE, or the L3 I would assume. If I can make a recommendation, go with the L3SE as the center, and go cheap on the sides (coaxials). There is absolutely no value added by going with high-grade speakers for sides or rears.


Thanks for the feedback. I ran this setup by Scott and asked about the power. The L3 does run lower power than the L3SE. I am getting everything discounted due to the photoshoot and a turn in for the center. I am going to run it this way and if I need to I will add another small digital amp like the JBL one to add some more power into my setup. Eventually I will upgrade the components to the Legatia line if I am not happy with it but I'm not like most users on this forum. I just want something better than stock and won't go too crazy.


----------



## Vitty

NWS Alpine said:


> Eventually I will upgrade the components to the Legatia line if I am not happy with it but I'm not like most users on this forum. I just want something better than stock and won't go too crazy.


Famous last words haha


----------



## XaznKewLguyX

subwoofery said:


> How high in the door are we talking here? As high as here?:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have it flat in your door or angled to avoid the steering wheel?
> 
> Kelvin


Nice install!!


----------



## Gcarpenter87

So did anyone actually reach a 100% conclusive verdict on the input voltage issue??
I have a Clarion CZ501A which has 4V preamp outputs. 










Can I use an ms-8 or not?


----------



## subwoofery

Gcarpenter87 said:


> So did anyone actually reach a 100% conclusive verdict on the input voltage issue??
> I have a Clarion CZ501A which has 4V preamp outputs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can I use an ms-8 or not?


If you have an MS-8, just use it, you'll have your answer right there... 

4V, 8V, 12V, 157986612146464V has never been a problem... 

Kelvin


----------



## subwoofery

XaznKewLguyX said:


> Nice install!!


Not mine :blush: Wish it was... 

Kelvin


----------



## NWS Alpine

Vitty said:


> Famous last words haha


Car audio isn't really a passion for me though. I do like to research and spend my money right.

Now if we were talking golf clubs then yes. I have issues. There is always something better.


----------



## 14642

thehatedguy said:


> One mid moved to the upper door from the pillars...big big difference. Working on the other side this weekend.
> 
> I would listen to everything Andy says to do. Every time I do what he says, my MS-8 experience gets better and better.


 Thanks. Once again, this is why I still show up at work.


----------



## subwoofery

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Thanks. Once again, this is why I still show up at work.


Just for fun, since it's better to put the mid up high, where is the best spot for the midbass? Door or kicks? 

Not talking pros and cons, just talking about the best location WITH the MS-8... 

Thank you Andy, 
Kelvin


----------



## 14642

Lots of things to consider--If the center is big and can play some midbass, then the location of the midbass matters less. If the center is small, then the midbass below the center's crossover point is steered to the right and left. If that's the case, then thee's a bigger benefit of the more equal pathlengths, since the center midbass is the acoustic sum of left and right.

The drawback of kick panels is that the bottom corner of the footwell often causes a big dip followed by a big peak (between 30Hz and 1k). Stuffing a driver that wants a cubic foot into a tiny kick panel enclosure in many cases seriously limits the low frequency response and creates another big peak.


----------



## Kiong34

Hi All,

I have been trying to tune a lot but I notice most bass is from Driver side only and not from both passenger and Driver side. 
What could be wrong.

I am using 2 way front with one sub thru after market HU and amp.

Please help.


----------



## NWS Alpine

kaigoss69 said:


> I tried running the L3*SE*s off of the MS-8 amp and I was getting some funky distortion from the left mid. Now with 150WPC the problem is gone. 20W is not enough power for the L3SE, or the L3 I would assume. If I can make a recommendation, go with the L3SE as the center, and go cheap on the sides (coaxials). There is absolutely no value added by going with high-grade speakers for sides or rears.


Did some more research and I can add a JL XD 400/4 to get 75W to the L3 in the center and two rear fill. The XD400/4 is tiny and will work well with the HD900/5 I think. Giving me 3 times more power to the L3 than running off the MS-8 internal amp.

EDIT: I can bridge 2 channels of the XD400 for the center channel and run the rear fill on the remaining 2. But that would be 180W at 12.5V and 200W at 14.4V. Is that too much power to the L3?


----------



## NWS Alpine

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Lots of things to consider--If the center is big and can play some midbass, then the location of the midbass matters less. If the center is small, then the midbass below the center's crossover point is steered to the right and left. If that's the case, then thee's a bigger benefit of the more equal pathlengths, since the center midbass is the acoustic sum of left and right.
> 
> The drawback of kick panels is that the bottom corner of the footwell often causes a big dip followed by a big peak (between 30Hz and 1k). Stuffing a driver that wants a cubic foot into a tiny kick panel enclosure in many cases seriously limits the low frequency response and creates another big peak.


I am trying to decide where to place my rear fill. I upgraded my center channel to a Hybrid Audio Technology L3 based on your suggestions on centers. I am using the imagine 6.5 components actively. I have another set of the L3 speakers. Should I place them on the rear doors in an SUV or in the D pillars as there is currently two 3.5" speakers on the D pillars near the roof. Not sure what would work better with the MS-8. I am thinking the d pillars right now but no idea.


----------



## Neil_J

NWS Alpine said:


> Did some more research and I can add a JL XD 400/4 to get 75W to the L3 in the center and two rear fill. The XD400/4 is tiny and will work well with the HD900/5 I think. Giving me 3 times more power to the L3 than running off the MS-8 internal amp.
> 
> EDIT: I can bridge 2 channels of the XD400 for the center channel and run the rear fill on the remaining 2. But that would be 180W at 12.5V and 200W at 14.4V. Is that too much power to the L3?


JL XD400/4 is a solid amp. I have the XD700/5 and my only complaint is lack of crossover choices. 

You can bridge to channels for the center and keep the gain down. Not a bad way to go at all, lots and lots of headroom. I think the L3's are rated for 125W with proper high-pass crossover installed. Just keep the gain down and you should be fine.

Down the road, you could get a single L1 V2 or L1 Pro R2 tweet for the center channel, run it off 1x 75W channel, 1x L3 center at 75W, and 2x remaining channels for rear fill.


----------



## 14642

NWS Alpine said:


> I am trying to decide where to place my rear fill. I upgraded my center channel to a Hybrid Audio Technology L3 based on your suggestions on centers. I am using the imagine 6.5 components actively. I have another set of the L3 speakers. Should I place them on the rear doors in an SUV or in the D pillars as there is currently two 3.5" speakers on the D pillars near the roof. Not sure what would work better with the MS-8. I am thinking the d pillars right now but no idea.


I'd do D-Pillars


----------



## Kiong34

Kiong34 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I have been trying to tune a lot but I notice most bass is from Driver side only and not from both passenger and Driver side.
> What could be wrong.
> 
> I am using 2 way front with one sub thru after market HU and amp.
> 
> Please help.



Please help


----------



## kaigoss69

Kiong34 said:


> Please help


I had the same problem. I did a bunch of measurements and posted graphs to illustrate what was going on. No matter what I tried to do, I could not get rid of the driver side midbass bias. It seems the MS8 "preferred" it that way. 

Then I installed different drivers. Went from 8" to 10". Magically, the problem went away! I know this probably won't help you but at least you are not alone!


----------



## subwoofery

Neil_J said:


> JL XD400/4 is a solid amp. *I have the XD700/5 and my only complaint is lack of crossover choices*.
> 
> You can bridge to channels for the center and keep the gain down. Not a bad way to go at all, lots and lots of headroom. I think the L3's are rated for 125W with proper high-pass crossover installed. Just keep the gain down and you should be fine.
> 
> Down the road, you could get a single L1 V2 or L1 Pro R2 tweet for the center channel, run it off 1x 75W channel, 1x L3 center at 75W, and 2x remaining channels for rear fill.


You know that the 700/5 has a switch that allows the Xover to go as high as 5kHz, right? Plenty high IMO... There's plenty of amps that don't have that kind of adjustability

Kelvin


----------



## BuickGN

kaigoss69 said:


> I had the same problem. I did a bunch of measurements and posted graphs to illustrate what was going on. No matter what I tried to do, I could not get rid of the driver side midbass bias. It seems the MS8 "preferred" it that way.
> 
> Then I installed different drivers. Went from 8" to 10". Magically, the problem went away! I know this probably won't help you but at least you are not alone!


Just out of curiosity, what were your crossover settings, specifically the highpass? I had all sorts of issues like this until I want to a much higher high pass on the mids. Just wondering if the 10" was able to play those frequencies easier, sort of the same as me raising my crossover point on the existing midbass.


----------



## kaigoss69

BuickGN said:


> Just out of curiosity, what were your crossover settings, specifically the highpass? I had all sorts of issues like this until I want to a much higher high pass on the mids. Just wondering if the 10" was able to play those frequencies easier, sort of the same as me raising my crossover point on the existing midbass.


Actually, at that time I was running subless, so the HP was 35Hz.


----------



## NWS Alpine

subwoofery said:


> You know that the 700/5 has a switch that allows the Xover to go as high as 5kHz, right? Plenty high IMO... There's plenty of amps that don't have that kind of adjustability
> 
> Kelvin


I don't understand all the crossover settings completely but if I am using a DSP like the MS-8 to the amp then does that negate the need for crossover on the amp itself? Is it used for an extra step of protection in some way?


----------



## subwoofery

NWS Alpine said:


> I don't understand all the crossover settings completely but if I am using a DSP like the MS-8 to the amp then does that *negate the need for crossover on the amp* itself? Is it used for an *extra step of protection* in some way?
> ......................................................................................................................................................................................................................YES & NO................................................................................NO


YES & NO, yes for a 2 way front active+rears+sub system & no for a 3 way front ACTIVE+rears+sub system 
NO, might give you some more settings to tailor your sound but it doesn't help with extra protection when used with the MS-8... 

Kelvin


----------



## Kiong34

All along i was using crossover point at 3.5k hz. now i cross at 5k and the sound is more complete. Can feel bass from both side better.

Now i am thinking if I should cross even higher because I am using Greman Maestro CS6508 and the crossover point is 5400hz.

Any recommendation?


----------



## Babs

I'll be facing the delimna soon hopefully for dialing in crossover points:

Fronts active 2-way:
Tweeter Vifa OX20SC00-04 in stock dash location (8th civic Si Sedan)
Tang Band W6-789E in doors
Powered by Kicker ZX700.5

Rear deck passive 2-way:
Same Tang Band W6-789E + Vifa D26 flush-mount silk-dome car-tweeter (6ohm) + passive crossover from a pioneer comp set (for now to try). 
Powered by the MS8.

Sub:
Older round 12" Kicker CVR in box in trunk
Powered by Kicker ZX700.5

I'm thinking of initially trying:Front tweet/mid split at 3k, 24db as I imagine those little tweets will be limited on how low they can be effective.
Rear "passive 2-way" at 90-100hz high-pass set appropriately in the MS8 as "side" speakers.
Front-mid/Sub low-pass at 80-90hz, 24 or other? slope.

Thoughts?


----------



## thehatedguy

door mids > pillar mids any day.


----------



## roxj01

ive tried searching and have read about 40 pages worth of stuff that came up when looking for bluetooth update fix etc.... is there or is there not an actual fix for the bluetooth echo issue? i also looked on the jbl website and wasnt able to find anything there.


----------



## BuickGN

roxj01 said:


> ive tried searching and have read about 40 pages worth of stuff that came up when looking for bluetooth update fix etc.... is there or is there not an actual fix for the bluetooth echo issue? i also looked on the jbl website and wasnt able to find anything there.


Same here. I searched the thread, found a little info but couldn't find anything on JBL's website.


----------



## Bluenote

Try an advanced search on this forum...somebody posted the link directly to the Firmware update on the JBL site.


----------



## blntydrm

It's on MS-8 Europe web site.. Click the link, there's a PDF explanation on how to do it.

harman - MS-8


----------



## 14642

Guys, before you update the software to try to fix the BT problem, go into the audio controls menu and turn off L7 and "processing". If that fixes the BT problem, then update the firmware. If it does NOT fix the problem, then DO NOT update the software. The update turns the mute button into a processing off button, and that's all it does. 

I don't have a neatly packaged version of the original code to send you to un-update yet.


----------



## jcob74

A question to Andy: what are the specific changes or improvements on the firmware update? Only the bluetooth issue or anything else?


----------



## t3sn4f2

jcob74 said:


> A question to Andy: what are the specific changes or improvements on the firmware update? Only the bluetooth issue or anything else?


See the post above yours.


----------



## jcob74

I only could read on that post about the bluetooth issue, does the firmware fixes other issues or brings new functions?


----------



## blntydrm

It's just for BT echo problem. That's all. No other fixes or new functions.


----------



## shexy

So i'll be getting an MS-8 on thursday and I wanna do my homework ahead of time.

My current set up

Pioneer AVH-P4100
Front: JL Audio C5-650
4 channel:Alpine PDX-6
Sub: JL 10W7 in HO box
Mono: Alpine PDX 1.1000

Adding the MS-8 into the mix shouldn't be too hard right?

Do I ditch the passive crossovers that came with my C5's?

Thanks!


----------



## shexy

Repost sorry


----------



## NWS Alpine

Got my MS-8 this weekend along with all my other stuff. I'm suprised by the weight of the MS-8. Must be the internal amps. Anyways I had a question about wiring this all in properly with the JL HD-900/5.

I am going to buy nice cables from knukonceptz but not sure what guage and fuses to get. 

I was thinking 4 guage from the bat to a distro block. Then one 4 guage to the JL HD amp and then 8 guage to the MS-8. Not sure whate fuses to use yet. Need to research that.

Also is 4 guage enough from the battery? If I decide to add another JL HD amp such as the HD600/4 will that be enough? I saw some conflicting views as the HD amps are very efficient class D amps.


----------



## pionkej

Andy (or anybody else),

I've wanted an MS-8 for a while and I think I'm gonna finally pick one up for my wife's Murano. I thought I read early one that you suggested either running all the channels off-of external power or none of them. I thought it had something to do with the MS-8 dropping the gain on the external amps until it matched that max output of the internal ones. I may be wrong (and I hope I am), but there are 240+ pages now and was hoping to not have to start digging.

For the 8-channels, I was planning on:

(1) Center Midrange+Tweeter
(2-3) FL/FR Midbass
(4-5) FL/FR Midrange+Tweeter
(6-7) Rear-fill
(8) Subwoofer

If I can run the rear-fill off the MS-8 to no consequence, I can save myself space/weight/$$ from buying another amp.


----------



## FartinInTheTub

I will be installing my MS-8 tomorrow as well. Here is what I'll be using and how I'll be using it...

Alpine CDA-9815
JL Audio 900/5
Dynaudio MW160 in doors
Focal TN-45 in factory tweeter locations
Morel 5C 5.25" coaxials for rear fill
Morel Ultimo SC12

I plan on using the 4 satellite channels of the 900/5 to run my 2-way frontstage actively (100x4), Rearfill (Morel Coaxials) will be powered my the MS-8's internal amp and the Ultimo will get 500w from the 900/5. I'm not familiar at all with the MS-8... Does anyone see any issues with what I plan on doing? Any recommendations on the crossover point for the TN-45s? I think that the K2p crossovers were crossing them over at 3500 so I'll start there. I'm thinking 80hz for the Dyns. Any suggestions or opinions would be appreciated, thanks. :2thumbsup:


----------



## subwoofery

FartinInTheTub said:


> I will be installing my MS-8 tomorrow as well. Here is what I'll be using and how I'll be using it...
> 
> Alpine CDA-9815
> JL Audio 900/5
> Dynaudio MW160 in doors
> Focal TN-45 in factory tweeter locations
> Morel 5C 5.25" coaxials for rear fill
> Morel Ultimo SC12
> 
> I plan on using the 4 satellite channels of the 900/5 to run my 2-way frontstage actively (100x4), Rearfill (Morel Coaxials) will be powered my the MS-8's internal amp and the Ultimo will get 500w from the 900/5. I'm not familiar at all with the MS-8... Does anyone see any issues with what I plan on doing? Any recommendations on the crossover point for the TN-45s? I think that the K2p crossovers were crossing them over at 3500 so I'll start there. I'm thinking 80hz for the Dyns. Any suggestions or opinions would be appreciated, thanks. :2thumbsup:


K2P's Xover point is 3.8kHz with the LP being a 12dB/oct slope and the tweets HP being an 18dB/oct slope... 

Kelvin


----------



## Salami

FartinInTheTub said:


> Does anyone see any issues with what I plan on doing?



I have done pretty much the same thing for the last 9 months. 4x100 amp for front, MS-8 for rears and a separate sub amp. 


Works great for me.


----------



## BuickGN

FartinInTheTub said:


> I will be installing my MS-8 tomorrow as well. Here is what I'll be using and how I'll be using it...
> 
> Alpine CDA-9815
> JL Audio 900/5
> Dynaudio MW160 in doors
> Focal TN-45 in factory tweeter locations
> Morel 5C 5.25" coaxials for rear fill
> Morel Ultimo SC12
> 
> I plan on using the 4 satellite channels of the 900/5 to run my 2-way frontstage actively (100x4), Rearfill (Morel Coaxials) will be powered my the MS-8's internal amp and the Ultimo will get 500w from the 900/5. I'm not familiar at all with the MS-8... Does anyone see any issues with what I plan on doing? Any recommendations on the crossover point for the TN-45s? I think that the K2p crossovers were crossing them over at 3500 so I'll start there. I'm thinking 80hz for the Dyns. Any suggestions or opinions would be appreciated, thanks. :2thumbsup:


My Dyn 162s would play 63hz fine and I never got distortion, never hit xmax, no issues but in a 2-way config they sounded slightly cleaner with a highpass of 80hz. I think that's a great starting point.

The Dyns aren't "power hungry" as most say. My Dyns were just as loud or louder as the IDs they replaced running at the same power. However, for some reason they just sound so good when you give them some real power. I had the 162s on 300w for a while and it's a night and day difference even when I did not have the volume cranked. It's hard to explain but the dynamics are so much better and it's cleaner. Getting ready to put them on an HD 600/4 (it's out for delivery right now) and we'll see how they do on 150w. While I wouldn't say the are power hungry, they definitely like power.


----------



## thomv

I dug through plenty of pages and saw one guy who said he went to -20 (or maybe higher) when using other amps. I've been playing with a buddy's car for a bit and trying different settings. With the MS8 set to -30 the gains on the amps have to come up quite a bit to get a reasonable volume from the system. The way I liked it best was with the gains down and the MS8 volume up (like -15 or even -5 when trying that). Is there a downside to running the MS8 volume up and gains low? Everything is running off amps, nothing on MS8 power. 

In systems in the past I've always tried to maximize voltage at each device and the amp gains end up pretty much all the way down. I don't see why I would want to crank the gains up and feed them less signal. If Andy says don't go beyond a certain volume on the MS8 I would be inclined to listen, and I swear somewhere in here that he recommended -30 with other amps. Is there a problem with running at -15 Andy? 

I've set up systems in the past with an o- scope and a 3 to 1 gain overlap and something like Dire Straits doesn't get loud, so I'm probably shooting for more of a 4 to 1? I know lots of other discs will get more than loud enough and there will be way more potential for clipping. If the user listens to lots of classic rock and wants to enjoy the system at more than modest volume what other choice do I have? I think leaving the MS8 volume low and running the gains high on the amps will leave just as much potential for clipping. Or more so. Right?


----------



## thehatedguy

I have mine set to -15 or so. I will have to change everything once I retune with the new a lot more efficient speakers.


----------



## FartinInTheTub

subwoofery said:


> K2P's Xover point is 3.8kHz with the LP being a 12dB/oct slope and the tweets HP being an 18dB/oct slope...
> 
> Kelvin


Thanks Kelvin... I'll keep that in mind when i'm dialing things in. I had the front channels of the 900/5 running the Dyns and the Focals passively. I'll be giving the 4 drivers 100 watts each actively so things should really liven up. I'm stoked to get things up and running.


----------



## NWS Alpine

FartinInTheTub said:


> Thanks Kelvin... I'll keep that in mind when i'm dialing things in. I had the front channels of the 900/5 running the Dyns and the Focals passively. I'll be giving the 4 drivers 100 watts each actively so things should really liven up. I'm stoked to get things up and running.


I have the same setup but can't install it until my car is built in a few weeks. What is your wiring setup for the MS-8 and HD900/5. Specifically what guage power wires, distro blocks, fuses, etc?


----------



## FartinInTheTub

NWS Alpine said:


> I have the same setup but can't install it until my car is built in a few weeks. What is your wiring setup for the MS-8 and HD900/5. Specifically what guage power wires, distro blocks, fuses, etc?


Haven't done it yet... Installing it today. I'm going to use 8 gauge power/ground for the ms8. My battery is 3ft from my amp(bmw), so I'm using 4 gauge.


----------



## [email protected]

Quick question, 
if i set "processing off", is the level matching between the drivers also off or only equalizer and ta?


Barney


----------



## JJAZ

thomv said:


> I dug through plenty of pages and saw one guy who said he went to -20 (or maybe higher) when using other amps. I've been playing with a buddy's car for a bit and trying different settings. With the MS8 set to -30 the gains on the amps have to come up quite a bit to get a reasonable volume from the system. The way I liked it best was with the gains down and the MS8 volume up (like -15 or even -5 when trying that). Is there a downside to running the MS8 volume up and gains low? Everything is running off amps, nothing on MS8 power.
> 
> In systems in the past I've always tried to maximize voltage at each device and the amp gains end up pretty much all the way down. I don't see why I would want to crank the gains up and feed them less signal. If Andy says don't go beyond a certain volume on the MS8 I would be inclined to listen, and I swear somewhere in here that he recommended -30 with other amps. Is there a problem with running at -15 Andy?
> 
> I've set up systems in the past with an o- scope and a 3 to 1 gain overlap and something like Dire Straits doesn't get loud, so I'm probably shooting for more of a 4 to 1? I know lots of other discs will get more than loud enough and there will be way more potential for clipping. If the user listens to lots of classic rock and wants to enjoy the system at more than modest volume what other choice do I have? I think leaving the MS8 volume low and running the gains high on the amps will leave just as much potential for clipping. Or more so. Right?


I think you are mixing things up. For calibration you would run the MS-8 gain fairly low (-40 -> -20 depending on the setup).

But normal use (i.e. listening to music), the MS-8 gain should be static app. -6. Of course that only holds true when you use the volume knob on your headunit to adjust the level of the music.


----------



## thomv

JJAZ said:


> I think you are mixing things up. For calibration you would run the MS-8 gain fairly low (-40 -> -20 depending on the setup).
> 
> But normal use (i.e. listening to music), the MS-8 gain should be static app. -6. Of course that only holds true when you use the volume knob on your headunit to adjust the level of the music.


It's quite possible I'm mixed up.  

The only time I notice the MS8 ask for volume is when running calibration. If I set it to -30 (or so) everything sounds really good, just not loud at all. I even tried different volume settings on the radio when using the disc to set up. There's no volume display on the OEM radio, so volume all the way up -3 clicks, -8 clicks. Didn't seem to make a difference. Is there a way to adjust the MS8 gain after setup? I thought I looked everywhere but if it's there I must have overlooked it...


----------



## thomv

OK, so pretend like you're going to run calibration, change the volume, then exit. I thought you had to go through with it once you changed volume so I never tried to just exit. Duh.


----------



## less

Hey all,

There is enough known now that its probably fair for me to ask this. I tried reviewing the posts but there is just so much here that its hard to get to the brass tacks. I'm using a Bit One - which seems to be ahead in the polls so far, but I'm really getting more interested in the MS8 for two reasons. First, you can set a target curve (and the RTA post has a great equalized volume chart from which you can get a good starting curve. Second is the fact that this unit uses the Audessy eq systems and my experience with these has me hooked.

I use a little Denon S302 home theatre system in my bedroom to play almost all my home music through my PC as well as provide sound for my movies and such. I have to say, although I've certainly heard better, this system sounds VERY good at all volume levels and is absolutely perfect for its use here. If I could get my car system to sound as good as it does - regardless of the music type, volume, production standards of the original source, etc, I'd be ecstatic!

So, the only two questons are: 1. does the JBL unit pull this off with its self tuning system or not? and 2. what are the drawbacks of the JBL unit that make the B1 a better choice according to many users?

Can someone please help me out here? I've spent thousands and thousands on this car system and yes, it sounds good. Still, I'd love to have something I didn't have to fiddle with and would sound good in all circumstances (well nearly all). Even though I'm not listening to music as much as I once did, I'm still willing to spend the time to install and rewire for yet another processor! Honestly, I think the reason I don't listen as much now is that I'm frustrated that I haven't been able to tune my car to sound as good as this Denon does straight out of the box! Hopefully I'll get it soon as my recent RTA work has really helped, but I think the Audessy is the source of the consistent qualities that I like - and maybe the JBL would do it.

Thoughts please? I'm sorry if I missed something somewhere - feel free to link me up. I did search but didn't find a good answer.

Thanks
Less - aka Jim


----------



## SSSnake

I am pretty sure that the MS-8 DOES NOT use Audessy. Secondly, the MS-8 really doesn't allow you to enter a target curve. It comes with a hard coded target curve and then you can EQ afterwards (a little different animal). If you are familiar with Andy's posts about the target curve you can easily see the starting point.


----------



## [email protected]

less said:


> this unit uses the Audessy eq systems and my experience with these has me hooked


Imprint (Alpine) uses the Audessy system. 




Barney


----------



## 14642

No, we don't use Audyssey. We use our own algorithm. Besides the method, there's no real difference between adjusting the target curve and adjusting a separate filter after the target curve. Adjusting the target curve assumes that the algorithm works perfectly 100% of the time. Adjusting after the target assumes that it might not and provides you the opportunity to fine tune in real time.


----------



## 14642

thomv said:


> It's quite possible I'm mixed up.
> 
> The only time I notice the MS8 ask for volume is when running calibration. If I set it to -30 (or so) everything sounds really good, just not loud at all. I even tried different volume settings on the radio when using the disc to set up. There's no volume display on the OEM radio, so volume all the way up -3 clicks, -8 clicks. Didn't seem to make a difference. Is there a way to adjust the MS8 gain after setup? I thought I looked everywhere but if it's there I must have overlooked it...


When you run acoustic calibration, MS-8 generates the signals. Set MS-8's volume control DURING calibration at -20- -40. Then, AFTER calibration is done, either set the radio's volume control to about 3/4 and use MS-8's control or set MS-8's control at -6 and use the radio's volume control.


----------



## x588052004

bmxscion said:


> Do you need a new cable for the display? I have an extra one if your interested....pm me.


do you still have extra jbl ms8 LCD cable (6M long) for sale?i'm intereting,how much is that with shipping to ROSCOE .IL ZIP 61073?COULD YOU PM ME, MY E MAIL [email protected] and do you accept paypal for this? thanks


----------



## thomv

Yeah, I overlooked the most basic function I guess. I didn't realize the plus and minus buttons were volume. I played with it some today and it sounds really good. 

There's no center so I can live without L7, but the owner might like it better with it. I remember reading another post where you said out of phase info goes rear, I had the IASCA disc in and "my voice is out of phase now" threw me for a second when it shifted to the rear seat. 

It's really amazing how good it can make a car sound with minimal effort. Tuning was never my favorite thing to do.


----------



## fight4life28

JBL's processor can do active right. Without a Active headunit and time alignment


----------



## less

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, we don't use Audyssey. We use our own algorithm. Besides the method, there's no real difference between adjusting the target curve and adjusting a separate filter after the target curve. Adjusting the target curve assumes that the algorithm works perfectly 100% of the time. Adjusting after the target assumes that it might not and provides you the opportunity to fine tune in real time.


:blush:Thanks to all who posted and clarified... no idea how, but I've had it in my head since I first saw the MS8 that it was using one or more of the various Audyssey eq systems. I've also been under the impression that while Alpine's Imprint attempted to use it, it was an underwhelming and perhaps too budget concious effort for folks interested in high end results... could be wrong there too I suppose.

Andy I appreciate and have used your target curve with reasonably good results, but since I'm older than the average person here, I've always wondered if I had high end hearing loss. Since my Denon system sounds great (using a few of the Audyessey systems), I decided to RTA it from my listening position at my most frequent listening level. Interestingly, the curve it resulted in looked much like yours at the low end, and almost exactly like the (Fletcher Munson) equalized volume curve shown on the RTA thread. This curve is supposed to represent how the ear percieves audible frequencies at various volume levels and is actually a series of curves at increasing decibel levels. They boost the low end significantly in a slope up from 200hz, a mild drop at 2-4k and another curve up a fair bit from 6k-12k. 

I think my next task is going to be to develop a series of presets for my system that match those curves at different volume levels and test them out. The Dynamic EQ in the B1 is supposed to handle the low end, but it seems a bit vague and by employing several fixed sets made for 100+ 94 88 and 82 db or so, I might get more reliable results. For whatever reason (hearing impairment or personal preference), I seem to like a bit more high end than flat or a roll off offers, and since I'm the only listener 90% of the time - who better to tune for! 

A summary of the benefits and drawback of the MS8 would still be handy though... Thanks again and I'm sorry about assuming an incorrect feature set. 

Jim 

Here's the curve FYI: 

Equal-loudness contour -


----------



## 14642

I don't think high-frequency hearing loss plays a role here, if you're shooting for what sounds accurate. You hear a live piano or a piano reproduced through speakers through the same ears. I think it's simply a matter of preference. As far as the bass goes, it seems that the smaller the listening environment, the more bass we like.


----------



## 2wheelie

How would I set the gains on a JL 900/5 to 2v? I've read through the gain setting posts and still don't get it.


----------



## FartinInTheTub

^^^ I would like to know the same thing.


----------



## AndyInOC

2wheelie said:


> How would I set the gains on a JL 900/5 to 2v? I've read through the gain setting posts and still don't get it.


Connect an rca cable to your radio, play a sine wave within all of your passbands so that you can use the same one for all the channels on your amp. Most people recommend a 1k sine wave, not all of my amps play full range so I use one in the 300hz range. Once you have the rca connected to the radio play the tone, set your DMM to ac volts and turn up the volume knob until your output reads approximately 2v.

Disconnect your speakers from your amp, and connect the rca straight from the radio to your amp, bypassing the ms8. Assuming that all of your speakers are 4ohm the 900/5 does 75x4 and 500x1 so on your front channels (still playing the tone, still @ 2v, speakers disconnected) touch the probes for the DMM to the outputs on the amp and turn the gain until you hit 20v output on the 4 ch portion and 44.72v on the sub ch.

Remember, the dmm is set to AC volts, speakers are disconnected, that will give you your 2v output on the amp with a 0db sine wave. Hope that helps.


----------



## 2wheelie

Thanks for the detailed explanation Andy. That's exactly what I was looking for.


----------



## FartinInTheTub

AndyInOC said:


> Connect an rca cable to your radio, play a sine wave within all of your passbands so that you can use the same one for all the channels on your amp. Most people recommend a 1k sine wave, not all of my amps play full range so I use one in the 300hz range. Once you have the rca connected to the radio play the tone, set your DMM to ac volts and turn up the volume knob until your output reads approximately 2v.
> 
> Disconnect your speakers from your amp, and connect the rca straight from the radio to your amp, bypassing the ms8. Assuming that all of your speakers are 4ohm the 900/5 does 75x4 and 500x1 so on your front channels (still playing the tone, still @ 2v, speakers disconnected) touch the probes for the DMM to the outputs on the amp and turn the gain until you hit 20v output on the 4 ch portion and 44.72v on the sub ch.
> 
> Remember, the dmm is set to AC volts, speakers are disconnected, that will give you your 2v output on the amp with a 0db sine wave. Hope that helps.


At 4ohm the 900/5 does 100x4 so a few changes to the numbers would work. I appreciate you posting this... I'm going to set mine up now.


----------



## AndyInOC

FartinInTheTub said:


> At 4ohm the 900/5 does 100x4 so a few changes to the numbers would work. I appreciate you posting this... I'm going to set mine up now.


Whoops! Math mistake on my part. The 20v number I posted is for 100w I apologize. If it was 75w you would turn it up until it hit 17.32v


----------



## FartinInTheTub

AndyInOC said:


> Whoops! Math mistake on my part. The 20v number I posted is for 100w I apologize. If it was 75w you would turn it up until it hit 17.32v


Just noticed that to!  thanks for the info.


----------



## AndyInOC

FartinInTheTub said:


> Just noticed that to!  thanks for the info.


No problem fellas! I had to have it explained to me a long time ago too, now its second nature after doing it a few thousand times.

Was installing art @ work all week so my brain is in math overload mode and I checked the square root of the wrong number, which by dumb luck ended up being the right number Lol.


----------



## pionkej

AndyInOC said:


> Connect an rca cable to your radio, play a sine wave within all of your passbands so that you can use the same one for all the channels on your amp. Most people recommend a 1k sine wave, not all of my amps play full range so I use one in the 300hz range. Once you have the rca connected to the radio play the tone, set your DMM to ac volts and turn up the volume knob until your output reads approximately 2v.
> 
> Disconnect your speakers from your amp, and connect the rca straight from the radio to your amp, bypassing the ms8. Assuming that all of your speakers are 4ohm the 900/5 does 75x4 and 500x1 so on your front channels (still playing the tone, still @ 2v, speakers disconnected) touch the probes for the DMM to the outputs on the amp and turn the gain until you hit 20v output on the 4 ch portion and 44.72v on the sub ch.
> 
> Remember, the dmm is set to AC volts, speakers are disconnected, that will give you your 2v output on the amp with a *0db sine wave*. Hope that helps.


I'm sorry, but I don't agree with the second half of your advice. I don't use a DMM to set amp gains, but if you do choose that route, I wouldn't use a 0db sine wave to do it. Since a bunch of older and well recorded music has peaks up to 18db (some even up to 30!), you are seriously limiting the output of your system setting the gains to 0db. Even most poorly recorded modern music has at least 3db of dynamics to it. Plus, peaks don't hurt an amp, speakers, or your ears much if there is some minor clipping. If you want to play it safe but gain a bit more output, use at least a -3db recorded tone. If you want to experience well recorded music with good output I would suggest using a -10db tone. Just remember to turn the volume back down a bit on poorly recorded music (low dynamics) if you set the gains at -10db and you'll be fine.

NOTE: The OP is correct on hitting 2v with the method mentioned above and using a 0db track. You DON'T want to clip the inputs if you can help it.


----------



## thehatedguy

You could do that and it would be right.

However the "easy" way would be to see where the 2v input is at on the gain adjustment on the amp and turn it close to there. On the HD amps, 2v input with the selector in "low" would mean the gain is all the way down.

And JL has a gain setting procedure in the owner's manual for the amps.


----------



## 2wheelie

thehatedguy said:


> You could do that and it would be right.
> 
> However the "easy" way would be to see where the 2v input is at on the gain adjustment on the amp and turn it close to there. On the HD amps, 2v input with the selector in "low" would mean the gain is all the way down.
> 
> And JL has a gain setting procedure in the owner's manual for the amps.



How did you determine that the 2v setting is all the way down on the amp? The JL method makes no mention of a 2v signal - just plug in rca's, test tone, dmm to 21v etc. I'm not questioning your logic, just wondering what I missed.

That was the pat that threw me, 2v signal before or after the amp...


----------



## kaigoss69

thehatedguy said:


> However the "easy" way would be to see where the 2v input is at on the gain adjustment on the amp and turn it close to there. On the HD amps, 2v input with the selector in "low" would mean the gain is all the way down.


Exactly. Plus, if you have the MS-8's internal amp running any of the car's speakers, the 2V thing is out of the window anyway. Then, you set the gains on the external amps to match the volume of the speakers connected to the MS-8 amp.


----------



## thehatedguy

The owner's manual says the low input selector goes from .200mV to 2 volt input signal. For the weak signal (.200mv) the gain would be all the way up. For the strong signal (2v) the gain would be all the way down.

Did you read the manual?




2wheelie said:


> How did you determine that the 2v setting is all the way down on the amp? The JL method makes no mention of a 2v signal - just plug in rca's, test tone, dmm to 21v etc. I'm not questioning your logic, just wondering what I missed.
> 
> That was the pat that threw me, 2v signal before or after the amp...


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> The owner's manual says the low input selector goes from .200mV to 2 volt input signal. For the weak signal (.200mv) the gain would be all the way up. For the strong signal (2v) the gain would be all the way down.
> 
> Did you read the manual?


lol 

Kelvin


----------



## AndyInOC

I recommended a 0db tone because most tutorials say the same and its a good idea to use a 0db tone the first couple times you use the tone/dmm method. Once a person gets a feel for it and their amps a -3 to -10 db tone is no problem


----------



## less

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I don't think high-frequency hearing loss plays a role here, if you're shooting for what sounds accurate. You hear a live piano or a piano reproduced through speakers through the same ears. I think it's simply a matter of preference. As far as the bass goes, it seems that the smaller the listening environment, the more bass we like.


(note - I edited this to make more sense... and to correct some grammar issues)

That is a very interesting response. Let's take labels like accurate and preference out of the equation for a moment. I believe that if the average audiophile was forced to wear dense cotton swabs in their ears (for example - as a result of a medical condition), they'd change their EQ settings (even if they had to buy an eq to do so) pretty quickly. I also suspect they'd consider those changes a matter of maintaining accuracy, instead of simply preferring to listen to "altered sound." 

Hearing issues are extremely common, even among young adults. Studies of how people hear and the changes people go through throughout their lives seem to indicate that there are massive variances in perceived loudness at different frequencies. In creating the equal loudness curves and the related ISO standards, researchers found individual perceptions range up to 20db difference! The causes range from physical damage to common differences in the shape of the outer ear, the ear canal's depth and other biological differences. 

I'd argue that perception is reality! It seems to me that it might very well be hard to define between accuracy and preference in any one individual, without first having a complete hearing test to account for how differences in their ability to hear. 

Yes, accurate is a starting reference point and you need one. On the other hand, it probably isn't safe to assume that a person who sets their system so that it doesn't sound flat to everyone is less sophisticated, or less interested in hearing music accurately represented. I've always been a little troubled by the idea of judging a listener by their eq curves.

Maybe in the future, companies like yours will take advantage of this and add a test that measures and equalizes based on the individuals hearing abilities before adding its own "target curve." We're getting more advanced every day - and it really wouldn't surprise me to see something like this as common in 20 years. I appreciate that you've been among the leaders in recognizing the first steps of this by offering a suggested target curve as an option, and advanced tuning options, but there's always a next step. 

Just a thought... thanks for your input. I'd never heard that about bass response - interesting.

Jim


----------



## 2wheelie

thehatedguy said:


> The owner's manual says the low input selector goes from .200mV to 2 volt input signal. For the weak signal (.200mv) the gain would be all the way up. For the strong signal (2v) the gain would be all the way down.
> 
> Did you read the manual?


I did read it a few weeks ago. It never occurred to me to look at the input selector for my answer.

Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## 14642

Less,
That was precisely my point-that the high frequencies are often set according to preference. I agree with you. I'd be happy if consumers could be encouraged to read the manual. Google Sean Olive. You may find some interesting stuff about acuity tests and listener training.


----------



## thehatedguy

Sean Olive has an interesting blog too.


----------



## 14642

thehatedguy said:


> Sean Olive has an interesting blog too.


 
Yeah, that's the one.


----------



## KenNorton

cajunner said:


> maybe a pair of these
> 
> Aurasound NS2x3-184-4A 2" x 3" Full Range - 4 ohm
> 
> would do some good, in a 1.5 way with vented enclosure, the port between the speaker fronts.
> 
> would get up nice, and if Patrick Bateman's measurements of the whispers are correct, the Fo of these is closer to sub 200 hz, meaning with a port you could get them down to usable output at 180 hz or so in paired configuration along with >85 db sensitivity at 1 watt, which with the proximity to the listener and ~30 degrees off-axis, equates to a regular 5.25" in the doors in relative loudness capability, especially with the dual voice coils taking heat you could power them with 50 watts RMS, easily..
> 
> on second thought, you'd have to go sealed with the width being exactly 7 inches across if you overlap the mounting rim on the outsides.
> 
> 2" X 7" DIN opening, fully fitted with cones.
> 
> I bet it wouldn't sound half bad. Build the enclosure out of ABS plastic with plastic-weld epoxy, throw some color coordinated grill cloth, fill the enclosure with poly fill, and power it with an MS-8's internal amp at 2 ohms, giving 30 watts RMS.


after long delay, I finally installed the center with 2 x Hi-Vi A2S 2" Full Range speakers crossed at 250Hz. Box is from broken OEM CD changer.










sound stage is still high and imaging is improving a lot.
I am happy.


----------



## shexy

You guys are gonna cringe at this but I got processor installed



















^^ PDX 1.1000, PDX F6, MS-8 in that order


Yes i know i need to clean up the wiring. I just wanted to hear it so bad! 

The actual calibration and setup piece of it was pretty straightforward. I called JL Audio for the crossover points. The only thing i had no clue about was the slope? 12db/24db etc. I just went with what the manual book recommended. At first I was a bit disappointed but after driving around the whole weekend i really got plenty of ear action. I was really impressed with the driver/passenger/front set ups. Drastic changes between all 3! The bit that won me over was how the MS-8 tamed my JL 10W7. It made it its *****. I love my 10W7 but at times it was just overkill. The mS-8 just cleaned it up and really brought it to its full potential.

Now its time to go 3 way FTW!!


----------



## FartinInTheTub

One thing that's buggin me about my MS-8 is that when I want to experiment with different crossover points and slopes I have to recalibrate everything. Is this normal??? I wanted to change my crossover point from 3500 to 4000hz and I had to recalibrate. I tried to exit out after I changed the setting but once I did without a recalibration I had no sound. Sucks.


----------



## JJAZ

FartinInTheTub said:


> One thing that's buggin me about my MS-8 is that when I want to experiment with different crossover points and slopes I have to recalibrate everything. Is this normal??? I wanted to change my crossover point from 3500 to 4000hz and I had to recalibrate. I tried to exit out after I changed the setting but once I did without a recalibration I had no sound. Sucks.


That is how the MS-8 works, no way of getting around it.


----------



## subwoofery

FartinInTheTub said:


> One thing that's buggin me about my MS-8 is that when I want to experiment with different crossover points and slopes I have to recalibrate everything. Is this normal??? I wanted to change my crossover point from 3500 to 4000hz and I had to recalibrate. I tried to exit out after I changed the setting but once I did without a recalibration I had no sound. Sucks.


Changing the Xover points changes the target curve. I can garantee that it won't sound it's best - best you could get is a wandering image. That's why you need to recalibrate in order to still have the set target curve but now with the new Xover 
Messing with the Xover without calibrating can only mess up the sound. 

Kelvin


----------



## FartinInTheTub

subwoofery said:


> Changing the Xover points changes the target curve. I can garantee that it won't sound it's best - best you could get is a wandering image. That's why you need to recalibrate in order to still have the set target curve but now with the new Xover
> Messing with the Xover without calibrating can only mess up the sound.
> 
> Kelvin


Makes sense... thanks guys.


----------



## pionkej

Does anybody have any input on porting the center channel midrange in an MS8 install (pros or cons)? I have seen it recommened here to cross as low as you can in the center center so you aren't relying on the L/R to create a phantom center.

In my install I can't fit much more than a 4" driver on the dash. HOWEVER, my particular 4" midrange (JBL 400GTi) models that it can go down to 100hz without running out of XMAX or exceeding vent mach in a 2L enclosure w/ a 7" long port 2" in diameter. I'm pretty sure I CAN fit that and it gets me 150hz lower at the crossover point.

I would love to do it to the L/R midranges as well, but I don't have the depth there because of AC vents.

Here is what I have as pros/cons so far:

Cons:
-Group delay for ported speaker

Pros:
-Can cross at 100hz vs. 250hz
-Has the same tonality as my 400GTi L/R speakers in the midrange

I feel like this would have to be too easy and I'm missing something, but for the life of me I can't think of any real reason not to do it. Even the group delay doesn't model that bad from what I can see.


----------



## jcob74

I want to share my experience with the MS-8: Before I ordered it, I read every page of this forum, and still reading it, when I received it I followed every recommendation and tried to avoid any mistake, but I wasn´t satisified with the sound (wandering image, poor midbass, harsh highs, some bass frequencies with problems, etc.), I tried to fix those problems with the 31 band eq but still it wasn´t the results I expected (I wanted hi-end sound, like the sound I have in my home theater). And last weekend I tried something extreme: I was calibrating at -30 to -40db, and remembered Gary said the channel test tones must be -70 db more or less, so I recalibrated at -15db to get those levels on all channels, and voila! It´s like I lifted a curtain, everything now is crystal clear, the image is dead center, the ambience...wow, logic 7 now is working very good, and for the first time I want to get in to my car and listen all my music. There were some issues with some frequencies still (fixed with the 31 band eq), I think these adjustements are more my personal taste and avoiding some frequencies that I find untolerable, and the frequencies between 50-100 or so are distorting a little, maybe because the midrange drivers are located in the doors and these need to be treated (closing holes, dynamat, etc.). I would like to have an opinion from Andy or anyone on this forum, would be better to adjust the move the low frequency midrange crossover up (at this time I´m using 90hz 18db/oct, and I´d try 100 or 120 hz 24db/oct). Does the use of a higher crossover frequency have any consequence on the bass localization or other issues? I think using the higher frequency removes the possibility of the midrange distorting on those frequencies. And the other question is: I installed a JL Audio 10W6 sub on a sealed enclosure, any recommendations for this particular setup? I noted that the 40-50 hz are very loud, could be for the sealed enclosure and what can I do to fix this issue? Any tip?. By the way this is my configuration: Kenwood KIV-BT900 HU, Dynaudio Esotec 242gt 2 way components (connected passive) on front, Rainbow SL165 coaxial speakers on rear door locations, JL Audio 900/5 amp (2 channels for the front comps, 2 channels for the rear speakers and the sub channel for the 10W6).


----------



## quietfly

pionkej said:


> Does anybody have any input on porting the center channel midrange in an MS8 install (pros or cons)? I have seen it recommened here to cross as low as you can in the center center so you aren't relying on the L/R to create a phantom center.
> 
> In my install I can't fit much more than a 4" driver on the dash. HOWEVER, my particular 4" midrange (JBL 400GTi) models that it can go down to 100hz without running out of XMAX or exceeding vent mach in a 2L enclosure w/ a 7" long port 2" in diameter. I'm pretty sure I CAN fit that and it gets me 150hz lower at the crossover point.
> 
> I would love to do it to the L/R midranges as well, but I don't have the depth there because of AC vents.
> 
> Here is what I have as pros/cons so far:
> 
> Cons:
> -Group delay for ported speaker
> 
> Pros:
> -Can cross at 100hz vs. 250hz
> -Has the same tonality as my 400GTi L/R speakers in the midrange
> 
> I feel like this would have to be too easy and I'm missing something, but for the life of me I can't think of any real reason not to do it. Even the group delay doesn't model that bad from what I can see.



Have you tried it with out porting first, to make sure its worst going through all the trouble? my only possible con would be the additional reflection off of the windshield that you'd have a hard time adjusting for. unless of course you could vent it some where else.....


----------



## pionkej

quietfly said:


> Have you tried it with out porting first, to make sure its worst going through all the trouble? my only possible con would be the additional reflection off of the windshield that you'd have a hard time adjusting for. unless of course you could vent it some where else.....


I haven't tried anything yet, that is why I'm asking in advance. As far as reflections go, I would fight them just like I'm going to have to do with drivers off the glass. They will both be firing straight into the glass (as will the L/R midrange) and I will have them as close to glass as possible to push the combing as high into (and hopefully out of) the passband as possible.

I don't think I would want the port to be vented anywhere other than beside the speaker though since it produces sound in conjunction with the speaker. Then I would have a "driver" that I couldn't tune for.


----------



## quietfly

Well the MS8 will account for some of the reflections on the front side but If i recall correctly AW recommends tweets in sails mids in doors center dead center of windshield.


----------



## pionkej

quietfly said:


> Well the MS8 will account for  some of the reflections on the front side but If i recall correctly AW recommends tweets in sails mids in doors center dead center of windshield.


I'm not trying to sound rude, but what does that have to do with me asking about porting my midrange center? I know that the MS8 will account for reflections the best it can, and I'm going to try and push those issues outside of the passband by having everything close to the glass before the MS8 does any processing. Also, I'm going with a 3-way left and right, the midbass will be in the doors. The midranges are all going on the dash. Tweeters will be determined at the end after listening. They may go on the dash or they may go in the pillars.


----------



## subwoofery

jcob74 said:


> I want to share my experience with the MS-8: Before I ordered it, I read every page of this forum, and still reading it, when I received it I followed every recommendation and tried to avoid any mistake, but I wasn´t satisified with the sound (wandering image, poor midbass, harsh highs, some bass frequencies with problems, etc.), I tried to fix those problems with the 31 band eq but still it wasn´t the results I expected (I wanted hi-end sound, like the sound I have in my home theater). And last weekend I tried something extreme: I was calibrating at -30 to -40db, and remembered Gary said the channel test tones must be -70 db more or less, so I recalibrated at -15db to get those levels on all channels, and voila! It´s like I lifted a curtain, everything now is crystal clear, the image is dead center, the ambience...wow, logic 7 now is working very good, and for the first time I want to get in to my car and listen all my music. There were some issues with some frequencies still (fixed with the 31 band eq), I think these adjustements are more my personal taste and avoiding some frequencies that I find untolerable, and the frequencies between 50-100 or so are distorting a little, maybe because the midrange drivers are located in the doors and these need to be treated (closing holes, dynamat, etc.). I would like to have an opinion from Andy or anyone on this forum, would be better to adjust the move the low frequency midrange crossover up (at this time I´m using 90hz 18db/oct, and I´d try 100 or 120 hz 24db/oct). *Does the use of a higher crossover frequency have any consequence on the bass localization or other issues?* I think using the higher frequency removes the possibility of the midrange distorting on those frequencies. And the other question is: I installed a JL Audio 10W6 sub on a sealed enclosure, any recommendations for this particular setup? I noted that the 40-50 hz are very loud, could be for the sealed enclosure and _what can I do to fix this issue_? Any tip?. By the way this is my configuration: Kenwood KIV-BT900 HU, Dynaudio Esotec 242gt 2 way components (connected passive) on front, Rainbow SL165 coaxial speakers on rear door locations, JL Audio 900/5 amp (2 channels for the front comps, 2 channels for the rear speakers and the sub channel for the 10W6).


*Since you have the MS-8, try it... No one can tell coz they are not in your car and don't have your gear. Some subs have less distorsion than others, others have less inductance and can play higher better. It's up to you to decide if you like a higher Xover point or not... *
_You could either use the 31 EQ band to tame the 40Hz-50Hz range or you could rebuild your enclosure and make it bigger _

Kelvin


----------



## quietfly

pionkej said:


> I'm not trying to sound rude, but what does that have to do with me asking about porting my midrange center? I know that the MS8 will account for reflections the best it can, and I'm going to try and push those issues outside of the passband by having everything close to the glass before the MS8 does any processing. Also, I'm going with a 3-way left and right, the midbass will be in the doors. The midranges are all going on the dash. Tweeters will be determined at the end after listening. They may go on the dash or they may go in the pillars.


the reason i brought it up was in the past people have had staging problems with the mids in the dash with the M8. just wanted to pass it on. If your placing a mid in as a center in the dash you probably should also have a tweeter on that same center channel. unless of course its a full range mid, like a HAT L3SE or the Tan bang ones. 

As for your original question, as long as you don't run into any driver specific issue with ported enclosures. It should be fine. AW has always recommended the largest speaker you could fit in the center even to the point of suggesting a larger center set, than left/right set. All i know is that when people listen to andy's suggestions they generally end up very happy with the MS8...


----------



## pionkej

quietfly said:


> the reason i brought it up was in the past people have had staging problems with the mids in the dash with the M8. just wanted to pass it on. If your placing a mid in as a center in the dash you probably should also have a tweeter on that same center channel. unless of course its a full range mid, like a HAT L3SE or the Tan bang ones.
> 
> As for your original question, as long as you don't run into any driver specific issue with ported enclosures. It should be fine. AW has always recommended the largest speaker you could fit in the center even to the point of suggesting a larger center set, than left/right set. All i know is that when people listen to andy's suggestions they generally end up very happy with the MS8...


Do you know why they have had staging problems? Do you know if this is running two-way or three-way? I will have a midrange plus tweeter in the center, but my L/R will also be on the dash (or I had planned for them to be).

As far as the largest center possible, I had read that too. I can't really fit anything larger, but I can port what I got to cross lower. I was just asking for any reason not to do it.

EDIT: Thanks for the help btw.


----------



## thehatedguy

Well where porting will help you is get low end extension from the speaker. If you are crossing at say 80, I don't know how much benefit it would be to gain that extra bottom end.


----------



## pionkej

thehatedguy said:


> Well where porting will help you is get low end extension from the speaker. If you are crossing at say 80, I don't know how much benefit it would be to gain that extra bottom end.


Yeah, it's a 4" speaker, so it's the difference between crossing at 250hz and at 100hz. The F3 is actually 90hz so I may be able to even get a bit lower. Basically it would take my center from midrange only down into a good chunk of the midbass.

It's the JBL 400GTi that Patrick Bateman talks about frequently. I'm running the 500's in my car and LOVE them, have three of the 400's I was going to sell, they'll cover L/C/R in my wife's Murano now. Just trying to get as low as I can on the center one and porting seems too easy with a 2L enclosure.


----------



## chadcham

I am in the process of getting an MS-8 installed into my BMW X5 (E70) which had the Logic7 16 speaker stock system in it and we are running into some very frustrating issues...

Over the last 2 days a well established installer in town has been putting in the JBL MS-8, JL Audio XD600/6 amp, and replacing the front's and centers with Hybrid Audio Legatia L3's/L1V2's, and a JL Audio Slash 500/1 pushing a JL Audio 12W3 in a JL HO box (which will shortly be replaced by a custom built box with two JL 10W6's plus another 500/1 to blend with the X5's interior). I had already replaced the underseat subs with SWS-8Xi's recently. When I got to the installers today they had a dilemma. They let me listen to the system with the MS-8 hooked directly to an ipod and it sounded amazing, simply blew me away. But when they hooked it up to the Logic7 amp it sounded worse than any stock system I have ever heard. They said they have been on the phone with JBL MS-8 support most of the day trying everything they suggest with no solution. One suggestion JBL had was using a line-out converter to reduce the signal coming into the MS-8 from the Logic7 and it actually sounded worse. They have tried using the onboard EQ and turning the gains all the way down/up/sideways and it still sounds horrible when hooked up to the stock system.

Does anyone have any recommendations? For those that have installed a MS-8 into their Logic7 bimmer, what settings did you put on the stock audio? Any help would be greatly appreciated. They are using Technic’s wiring harness I had purchased as well. This is the first MS-8 they have gotten to put into a BMW. Here is how the system is connected now:

L1: R Front Mid
L2: R Front Tweet
L3: L Front Mid
L4: L Front Tweet
L5: R Underseat Sub (as midbass)
L6: L Underseat Sub (as midbass)
L7: Center Channel
L8: JL Audio Sub

The JL Audio 600/6 is pushing L1-->L6, the MS-8 amp is pushing the L7 center channel, and the JL 500/1 to the JL Sub. 

As you can see, we are not running the rear speakers at this point so the front Legatia mids/tweets could use the active crossover in the MS-8 separately. In the future I may put passive crossovers for the front mids/tweets and use L3/L4 for the rears.

Thanks for any help!


----------



## Technic

chadcham said:


> I am in the process of getting an MS-8 installed into my BMW X5 (E70) which had the Logic7 16 speaker stock system in it and we are running into some very frustrating issues...
> 
> Over the last 2 days a well established installer in town has been putting in the JBL MS-8, JL Audio XD600/6 amp, and replacing the front's and centers with Hybrid Audio Legatia L3's/L1V2's, and a JL Audio Slash 500/1 pushing a JL Audio 12W3 in a JL HO box (which will shortly be replaced by a custom built box with two JL 10W6's plus another 500/1 to blend with the X5's interior). I had already replaced the underseat subs with SWS-8Xi's recently. When I got to the installers today they had a dilemma. They let me listen to the system with the MS-8 hooked directly to an ipod and it sounded amazing, simply blew me away. But when they hooked it up to the Logic7 amp it sounded worse than any stock system I have ever heard. They said they have been on the phone with JBL MS-8 support most of the day trying everything they suggest with no solution. One suggestion JBL had was using a line-out converter to reduce the signal coming into the MS-8 from the Logic7 and it actually sounded worse. They have tried using the onboard EQ and turning the gains all the way down/up/sideways and it still sounds horrible when hooked up to the stock system.
> 
> Does anyone have any recommendations? For those that have installed a MS-8 into their Logic7 bimmer, what settings did you put on the stock audio? Any help would be greatly appreciated. They are using Technic’s wiring harness I had purchased as well. *This is the first MS-8 they have gotten to put into a BMW.* Here is how the system is connected now:
> 
> L1: R Front Mid
> L2: R Front Tweet
> L3: L Front Mid
> L4: L Front Tweet
> L5: R Underseat Sub (as midbass)
> L6: L Underseat Sub (as midbass)
> L7: Center Channel
> L8: JL Audio Sub
> 
> The JL Audio 600/6 is pushing L1-->L6, the MS-8 amp is pushing the L7 center channel, and the JL 500/1 to the JL Sub.
> 
> As you can see, we are not running the rear speakers at this point so the front Legatia mids/tweets could use the active crossover in the MS-8 separately. *In the future I may put passive crossovers for the front mids/tweets and use L3/L4 for the rears.*
> Thanks for any help!


That's your problem right there.

You should use passive crossovers in the front now instead of active -set the MS-8 to front 2-way with the underseat woofers. By the way, with a trunk sub the SWS-8 are not going to give you the midbass to fill the hole at around 120Hz-160Hz that you will be introducing. You need a real midbass and not another sub. Then set center, side and sub. 

Your Logic7 OEM amp outputs around 70W max only at the woofer outputs -the other 7 channels are in the 40W range. That's within the MS-8 high input limits, so I do not know why this "add a LOC to a LOC" was even proposed. 

If anything I would bet that the real problem is one of acoustic calibration volume (either too low or too high); your installer may still be learning how to get it right with this unit. Double check the polarities of the conections at the harness as well, using the diagram supplied with the harness.


----------



## nineball

Technic said:


> That's your problem right there.
> 
> You should use passive crossovers in the front now instead of active -set the MS-8 to front 2-way with the underseat woofers.


why? what is the benefit of using passive crossovers over active via the ms-8? makes no sense to me. maybe i am missing something bmw-specific but i see no reason to not run active.


----------



## Technic

nineball said:


> why? what is the benefit of using passive crossovers over active via the ms-8? makes no sense to me. maybe i am missing something bmw-specific but i see no reason to not run active.


This is an *install* issue, not so much an _active vs. passive _argument.

In this *very particular* case a _simpler_ install (just set the front 2-way Hi/Lo crossover and slope and that's it) could have helped the newbie installer to properly set and calibrate this OEM system. That would have given the installer the *baseline* from which expand the system to then go active in the front if so that was the original intention.

The fact that SWS-8 are used with a proper sub and that a "LOC added to a LOC" was even suggested and tried tells me that the install is not that well thought.


----------



## pionkej

Chadcham- 

What are you using for a center? Andy W. has said before that with L7 on the center takes over as THE most important speaker. That means it should probably be larger/better quality than what you have on the sides. It should also be getting good clean power like your other speakers. 

With L7 the next most important part is rear speakers. Out of phase info is steered back there and you have no rears at the moment. If you don't have the ability to add rears right now, try turning the L7 off and see what it does. 

One last note, if your X5 has Active Noise Cacelling, you need to make sure it is turned off as well. Hope that helps.


----------



## nineball

Technic said:


> This is an *install* issue, not so much an _active vs. passive _argument.
> 
> In this *very particular* case a _simpler_ install (just set the front 2-way Hi/Lo crossover and slope and that's it) could have helped the newbie installer to properly set and calibrate this OEM system. That would have given the installer the *baseline* from which expand the system to then go active in the front if so that was the original intention.
> 
> The fact that SWS-8 are used with a proper sub and that a "LOC added to a LOC" was even suggested and tried tells me that the install is not that well thought.


I can see where you are coming from but you still didn't answer my question. What is the benefit, in this case, of using a passive crossover on the fronts? His setup is far from an OEM system so that point dies not apply at all. It would take all of 30 seconds extra to set 4 crossover points/slopes vs 2.


----------



## pionkej

nineball said:


> I can see where you are coming from but you still didn't answer my question. What is the benefit, in this case, of using a passive crossover on the fronts? His setup is far from an OEM system so that point dies not apply at all. It would take all of 30 seconds extra to set 4 crossover points/slopes vs 2.


I didn't make the original comment, but I'll say that I agree about going passive if the mid and tweeter are close. Only because Andy has stated rear-fill is important to good L7 performance and it would free up two channels to add that.


----------



## 14642

chadcham said:


> I am in the process of getting an MS-8 installed into my BMW X5 (E70) which had the Logic7 16 speaker stock system in it and we are running into some very frustrating issues...
> 
> Over the last 2 days a well established installer in town has been putting in the JBL MS-8, JL Audio XD600/6 amp, and replacing the front's and centers with Hybrid Audio Legatia L3's/L1V2's, and a JL Audio Slash 500/1 pushing a JL Audio 12W3 in a JL HO box (which will shortly be replaced by a custom built box with two JL 10W6's plus another 500/1 to blend with the X5's interior). I had already replaced the underseat subs with SWS-8Xi's recently. When I got to the installers today they had a dilemma. They let me listen to the system with the MS-8 hooked directly to an ipod and it sounded amazing, simply blew me away. But when they hooked it up to the Logic7 amp it sounded worse than any stock system I have ever heard. They said they have been on the phone with JBL MS-8 support most of the day trying everything they suggest with no solution. One suggestion JBL had was using a line-out converter to reduce the signal coming into the MS-8 from the Logic7 and it actually sounded worse. They have tried using the onboard EQ and turning the gains all the way down/up/sideways and it still sounds horrible when hooked up to the stock system.
> 
> Does anyone have any recommendations? For those that have installed a MS-8 into their Logic7 bimmer, what settings did you put on the stock audio? Any help would be greatly appreciated. They are using Technic’s wiring harness I had purchased as well. This is the first MS-8 they have gotten to put into a BMW. Here is how the system is connected now:
> 
> L1: R Front Mid
> L2: R Front Tweet
> L3: L Front Mid
> L4: L Front Tweet
> L5: R Underseat Sub (as midbass)
> L6: L Underseat Sub (as midbass)
> L7: Center Channel
> L8: JL Audio Sub
> 
> The JL Audio 600/6 is pushing L1-->L6, the MS-8 amp is pushing the L7 center channel, and the JL 500/1 to the JL Sub.
> 
> As you can see, we are not running the rear speakers at this point so the front Legatia mids/tweets could use the active crossover in the MS-8 separately. In the future I may put passive crossovers for the front mids/tweets and use L3/L4 for the rears.
> 
> Thanks for any help!


OK. If it sounds great with the iPod connected to the auxiliary input, then it isn't the crossovers, the EQ, the level at which the system was tuned or anything else. It's something going on before the MS-8.

Please help me help you by answering these questions:

1. Which outouts from the factory amplifier are hooked up to MS-8 and to which input channels? This should be checked very carefully to be sure no wires are crossed. If, for example, the installer got the Front right positive and the right sub negative connected to the input of one channel, that will cause exactly this problem whether there's an LOC or not. 
2. Are all the bass and treble controls in the factroy radio set to the center position?
3. Is the factory Logic7 turned off in the menu? 
4. When you run "setup" during the first part with the setup CD, do you get "signal OK, OK, OK"?


----------



## chadcham

Technic said:


> That's your problem right there.
> 
> You should use passive crossovers in the front now instead of active -set the MS-8 to front 2-way with the underseat woofers. By the way, with a trunk sub the SWS-8 are not going to give you the midbass to fill the hole at around 120Hz-160Hz that you will be introducing. You need a real midbass and not another sub. Then set center, side and sub.
> 
> Your Logic7 OEM amp outputs around 70W max only at the woofer outputs -the other 7 channels are in the 40W range. That's within the MS-8 high input limits, so I do not know why this "add a LOC to a LOC" was even proposed.
> 
> If anything I would bet that the real problem is one of acoustic calibration volume (either too low or too high); your installer may still be learning how to get it right with this unit. Double check the polarities of the conections at the harness as well, using the diagram supplied with the harness.


Technic - I can't argue there, but the installer has been around for 20+ years and have done a great job in the past (and there aren't too many with MS-8 experience in Tulsa, OK). And I agree with you, I had already told the installer that I was planning on changing the underseat woofers or going with a fabricated door panel with L6's or L8's for midbass. Having the SWS-8Xi's with an rear sub is my fault - I changed my mind mid-game and I have already factored that into my next stage.

I will pass the information along to them this morning and hopefully it will help give them some traction. I appreciate your input, you have already been very helpful with some of my previous questions. I did not choose to separate the fronts into 2 channels each, that is something they did without asking me. Like pionkej said below - is there a chance that having no rears with an active center (having both up front) would be causing out of phase issues? 




pionkej said:


> What are you using for a center? Andy W. has said before that with L7 on the center takes over as THE most important speaker. That means it should probably be larger/better quality than what you have on the sides. It should also be getting good clean power like your other speakers.


I am using a Hybrid Audio Legatia L3 as the center channel (I don't think much else would fit in there).

And not sure if this helps, but as I said when the MS-8 is hooked up to the ipod directly via RCA it sounds awesome. When using the Logic7 as a source, the L3's go from sounding smooth, to sounding harsh and like they are hitting the door panel (which they are not - they still had this sound when taken out of the door panel). 

Thanks again for all your help.

Chad


----------



## chadcham

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> OK. If it sounds great with the iPod connected to the auxiliary input, then it isn't the crossovers, the EQ, the level at which the system was tuned or anything else. It's something going on before the MS-8.
> 
> Please help me help you by answering these questions:
> 
> 1. Which outouts from the factory amplifier are hooked up to MS-8 and to which input channels? This should be checked very carefully to be sure no wires are crossed. If, for example, the installer got the Front right positive and the right sub negative connected to the input of one channel, that will cause exactly this problem whether there's an LOC or not.
> 2. Are all the bass and treble controls in the factroy radio set to the center position?
> 3. Is the factory Logic7 turned off in the menu?
> 4. When you run "setup" during the first part with the setup CD, do you get "signal OK, OK, OK"?


Andy -

I just emailed your questions to the installer as well. They are the ones using the setup CD, so they will have to provide those answers but I can say that when I saw the bass/treble controls last, all of the levels were set to the bottom (when I asked about this they said they had tried having them in the middle, all the way up, and all the way down). They had Logic7 turned off when I was there yesterday.

Thank you very much for your help.


----------



## chadcham

Andy -

I just talked to the installer (Mike at Boomers - who I think you corresponded with yesterday) and I forwarded him the PDF which has a summary of your MS-8 'wisdom' (the one I attached to this message). I believe he was going to email you regarding the answers to your questions. 

Thank you!


----------



## kaigoss69

Chad, I bet you the input wires are not hooked up correctly. The front door L+R wire pairs coming from the OEM amp go into CH 1&2 on the MS-8 hi-level inputs. Then, the underseat L&R go into CH *7&8* on the MS-8.


----------



## chadcham

kaigoss69 said:


> Chad, I bet you the input wires are not hooked up correctly. The front door L+R wire pairs coming from the OEM amp go into CH 1&2 on the MS-8 hi-level inputs. Then, the underseat L&R go into CH *7&8* on the MS-8.


Thanks - I'll pass that on for them to double check as well. They are in contact with Andy now too, so hopefully awesome sound will prevail in the end. The installer had a great deal of respect for Andy and said that he has worked with him in the past and said if anyone could figure the problem out he'd be the one.


----------



## CraigE

From page 2 of the attachment above;


"Unlike a regular EQ, you don't have to find an RTA and tune the car with the EQ, you just draw the curve you want to hear and press "go" and it does the work in implementing your curve."


The press "go" part has me a little confused. 

Is this done prior to calibration?
If you have adjusted the 31 band EQ, and then recalibrate, is this what the MS-8 will try to implement ?
If this is so, then the EQ should be set to flat prior to calibration to get back to the default MS-8 curve.


----------



## 14642

The 31 band EQ doesn't affect the calibration. Calibrate, then make adjustments with the 31-band EQ. Then if you want to calibrate again, go ahead. The sweeps are not modified by the 31-band EQ


----------



## FartinInTheTub

Hi Andy... I'm sure this question may have been asked before but in the manual it tells you to only use one set of rca inputs from your aftermarket headunit(front)... I was just looking through Bing's 350z install and noticed that he had two sets of rca inputs coming from his aftermarket HU. I'm just curious about this... Not sure why you have 6 channels of rca inputs on the ms8 if you want aftermarket users to use only one. I apologize for the question but school me on this please.


----------



## t3sn4f2

FartinInTheTub said:


> Hi Andy... I'm sure this question may have been asked before but in the manual it tells you to only use one set of rca inputs from your aftermarket headunit(front)... I was just looking through Bing's 350z install and noticed that he had two sets of rca inputs coming from his aftermarket HU. I'm just curious about this... Not sure why you have 6 channels of rca inputs on the ms8 if you want aftermarket users to use only one. I apologize for the question but school me on this please.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Guys,
> If you're using an aftermarket radio, there's noneed to use the additional 6 RCA inputs on the unit. If you're using a factory radio, then you should use the speaker level inputs and connect to as many chanels of the factory system as is required to provide the MS-8 the entire front right and left signal plus the output for the sub, if there is a sub. We left the additional 6 RCA inputs intact in case there are cases where the output of the factory system doesn't provide enough voltage to register during setup or in case there's a need to sum speaker level and RCA level.
> 
> The owner's manual and the quick start guide are written as instruction for installing the system and making it work. They aren't intended to explain WHY everything works. If we had written that, it would be hundreds of pages long and itseems that even a relatively concise quick start guide is too much to read and follow.
> 
> Get this, we had a local (soCal) dealer install one for a reviewer. Took the veteran installer 16 hours to install it incorrectly for which the dealer charged us $1700. Finally, Gary Biggs had to fly out here while I was overseas to check it out and ultimately, turn the volume down during calibration.


^^^^


----------



## FartinInTheTub

Coo... Thanks.


----------



## Darth SQ

FartinInTheTub said:


> Coo... Thanks.


Matt,
Hope your trip to Sedona, AZ. was a great one.

I finally get what all of you have been saying about the MS-8.
I heard Bluenote's LX yesterday and was completely blown away by it's simplicity to perform some very complicated tasks that I believe I need for my build.

1-The MS-8's ability to create a center channel signal out of only what's present in both the left and right channels at the same time finally creates a true and perfect center channel experience.
2-The MS-8's ability to switch from a competition driver seat biased tune to a daily driver center based tuned for all the occupants at the touch of the remote is a must.

Now, I don't profess to understand all of the MS-8's features since I haven't really considered needing one prior to yesterday, but I learned enough to be convinced to buy one.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## RazorTaz18

Hi all. I'm having a bit of a volume issue and was hoping to get some help here. I've called customer service and they were just as confused as I am. I have 8 speakers total. 2 tweets, a center and 2 rears running off the ms-8's built in amp and 2 mids and a sub running off an external amp. With the ms-8' volume at -6 and my aftermarket decks's volume at 3\4 the volume is not as loud as it should be. My factory deck and speakers were louder. I've tried calibrating at different volumes and calibrating without the center and rears. Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## jhnkvn

Personally, I'm very satisfied with my JBL MS-8 after 6 months of use. Now I'm thinking about competing it in the EMMA. I was given a chance to let an international judge (EMMA Indonesia judge) audition my system for some feedback and from what I got soundstage is still a bit off (although I think it's fine really..)

And so it leads me to ask whether using a passive for the mid-highs affects my soundstage. I use the tape-the-tweeter method during calibrating as the tweeter is just a few mm above the midrange.


----------



## Babs

I was hoping to fire up the 4.1 setup with tang band mids and vifa tweets all around. I'm down to wiring up the gear which is mounted to a temporary mdf board in the trunk. But all the speaks and wiring are done. The suspense is killing me as I teased myself with just a fronstage powered by the ms8. Ran out of weekend darnit!

Soon!

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## FartinInTheTub

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Matt,
> Hope your trip to Sedona, AZ. was a great one.
> 
> I finally get what all of you have been saying about the MS-8.
> I heard Bluenote's LX yesterday and was completely blown away by it's simplicity to perform some very complicated tasks that I believe I need for my build.
> 
> 1-The MS-8's ability to create a center channel signal out of only what's present in both the left and right channels at the same time finally creates a true and perfect center channel experience.
> 2-The MS-8's ability to switch from a competition driver seat biased tune to a daily driver center based tuned for all the occupants at the touch of the remote is a must.
> 
> Now, I don't profess to understand all of the MS-8's features since I haven't really considered needing one prior to yesterday, but I learned enough to be convinced to buy one.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Sedona is always beautiful! You literally drive over a hill then everything is red... so beautiful. The MS8 is nice once you get it all figured out, which I havent fully conquered yet. I'll be dropping my Dyns from 3800hz to 2500hz then replacing my off-axis Focal Tn-45 tweeters with on axis Scanspeak Illuminator Ring Radiators tomorrow! I'm thinking that the change should be drastic. I'm VERY excited. The MS8 will probably work well in your situation given the fact that it has 8 channels of output. Can't wait to see your install.


----------



## Darth SQ

FartinInTheTub said:


> Sedona is always beautiful! You literally drive over a hill then everything is red... so beautiful. The MS8 is nice once you get it all figured out, which I havent fully conquered yet. I'll be dropping my Dyns from 3800hz to 2500hz then replacing my off-axis Focal Tn-45 tweeters with on axis Scanspeak Illuminator Ring Radiators tomorrow! I'm thinking that the change should be drastic. I'm VERY excited. The MS8 will probably work well in your situation given the fact that it has 8 channels of output. Can't wait to see your install.


Matt,
Thanks for the input on the MS-8.
I am looking forward to your results from the upcoming changes.
BTW, good move selling the A300.2 to me.
I will tell you why later.
Could you post some pics of you Sedona trip from your point of view?
I would love to see those sandstone edifices again since it's been about 8-9 years.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## pionkej

EDIT: Got my answer from JBL Tech Support.


----------



## Ganderson

So I got my MS-8-centric install finished a couple of weeks ago and I'm still trying to zero in on a satisfactory calibration/tune.

Right now I'm running:

2011 Mazdaspeed3 w/ factory Bose HU (L/R only) > MS-8 Low Level Inputs > MS-8 Line-outs > JL Audio HD900/5

The HD900/5 is powering:

Front Stage 
Seas Neo Aluminum Tweets (stock sail-panel locations)
Seas U18RNX/P Mids (Stock low door locations)

Sub
Dual Alpine SWR843D 8" subs, sealed enclosure in cargo area.

I am not currently using any other speaker locations. Front stage is running active.

I have been consistently level matching the amp gains so the calibration sweeps are in the 68 - 75db range (RS SPL meter at ear level between front seats, c weighted/fast) from all drivers (including sub).

*Using the standard calibration method (Tweets, mids & sub all assigned to individual MS-8 output channels)*
The Good: 
Very focused imaging. Vocals/instruments distinctly placed across stage.
The Bad:
Weak Midbass. Loud/boomy bass. Horrible blending between mids/sub.

*Using the Kaigoss69 work-around method (Tweets & mids assigned to individual MS-8 output channels, no sub assigned, Front HP = 20hz, xovers for mids/sub set at amp, same xover values used as with standard method)*
The Good:
Tight bass, perfectly blended with mids coming from up-front. Nice & musical.
The Bad:
Imaging a bit more vague/diffuse. Vocals more spread across front stage. More of a L/R stereo sensation with instruments.

I'm not sure why Kaigoss' method would cause the imaging to change like that, it's strange. Mid/Tweet Xover was the same with both methods (4500hz/24db). Sub/Mid Xover was also the same (80hz/24db/12db).

I feel like I am close but the frustration is starting to settle in... any ideas?


----------



## thehatedguy

I don't get the need for these "work arounds."


----------



## rdv

I tuned with the kaigoss method a few months ago and after adjusting the levels of the mids and sub i kept it that way since. my center is kind of smeared and diffuse but i also dont have a center channel. 

my mids and tweets are in my kick panels and are moveable. last weekend i played around with aiming. i put my mids a bit more off axis but kept my tweets at the same angle. after a few tries my center image became clearer and while not exactly at the center of the dash it is now more focused and solid. 

not sure if this can help you if your mids are fixed


----------



## [email protected]

Ganderson said:


> I have been consistently level matching the amp gains so the calibration sweeps are in the 68 - 75db range (RS SPL meter at ear level between front seats, c weighted/fast)


Try level matching with an RTA! Also look at the FR of each speaker at the xover point.




Barney


----------



## pionkej

Why not try underlapping your mid/sub crossover point? Say 63/100 and use your original slopes. There are a lot of cars that have a peak right at 80hz, maybe the ms8 is trying to "fix" it by reducing the midbass. 

Worth a shot...right?


----------



## Ganderson

rdv said:


> I tuned with the kaigoss method a few months ago and after adjusting the levels of the mids and sub i kept it that way since. my center is kind of smeared and diffuse but i also dont have a center channel.
> 
> my mids and tweets are in my kick panels and are moveable. last weekend i played around with aiming. i put my mids a bit more off axis but kept my tweets at the same angle. after a few tries my center image became clearer and while not exactly at the center of the dash it is now more focused and solid.
> 
> not sure if this can help you if your mids are fixed


Yeah.. I'm stuck with my mids where they are.

Was your front stage more defined before you switched to the kaigoss method?


----------



## Ganderson

[email protected] said:


> Try level matching with an RTA! Also look at the FR of each speaker at the xover point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barney



The only RTA I have access to is an app on my ipad. I didn't think the level matching had to be _that_ precise to get a good result..


----------



## Ganderson

pionkej said:


> Why not try underlapping your mid/sub crossover point? Say 63/100 and use your original slopes. There are a lot of cars that have a peak right at 80hz, maybe the ms8 is trying to "fix" it by reducing the midbass.
> 
> Worth a shot...right?


Haven't done this yet... definitely worth a try. Thanks!


----------



## [email protected]

Ganderson said:


> The only RTA I have access to is an app on my ipad. I didn't think the level matching had to be _that_ precise to get a good result..


Its not all about level matching, also you could see if the speaker is abel to play in the frequence range you want him to play at listening position!



Regards Barney


----------



## Ganderson

[email protected] said:


> Its not all about level matching, also you could see if the speaker is abel to play in the frequence range you want him to play at listening position!
> 
> 
> 
> Regards Barney


Ok, I see. 2 things with that:

1. The frequency response between mid/sub is smooth with Kaigoss' method so I know the ability is there.

2. I purchased the MS-8 so I wouldn't have to put together an RTA setup. That was part of plan 'B' which was an Audison unit that required manual tuning.


----------



## Ganderson

Also, I've noticed a strange quirk/bug with mine.

If I'm playing my system with the volume really low, like below conversation level, the audio will fade over to the right mid and get all honky sounding like the processing is defeated. Turning up the system volume causes it to fade back to normal again. It's like the unit freaks out with the input voltage below a certain threshold.

It's not a sudden thing either, but just a smooth fade to the right and back again.

FYI, I'm leaving the MS-8 volume at -06db and using my HU volume exclusively.

Anyone else experienced this?


----------



## minbari

if it has it, try turning down the output gain and turning up the HU. if input voltage is the issue, that would solve it.


----------



## Salami

pionkej said:


> Why not try underlapping your mid/sub crossover point? Say 63/100 and use your original slopes. There are a lot of cars that have a peak right at 80hz, maybe the ms8 is trying to "fix" it by reducing the midbass.
> 
> Worth a shot...right?


Can't be done. The MS-8 does not allow for over or under lapping crossover points.


----------



## Ganderson

Salami said:


> Can't be done. The MS-8 does not allow for over or under lapping crossover points.


Can be done if you also use the amp crossovers.


----------



## Darth SQ

Ganderson said:


> Can be done if you also use the amp crossovers.


????
Can you explain this?
Assuming the signal sent is linear through the ms-8, crossovers-amps, that's not possible.
You can't bring back a frequency that has been removed from the signal path.
Maybe I'm missing something.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Ganderson

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> ????
> Can you explain this?
> Assuming the signal sent is linear through the ms-8, crossovers-amps, that's not possible.
> You can't bring back a frequency that has been removed from the signal path.
> Maybe I'm missing something.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


The original suggestion was to "underlap"... This would involve removing additional frequencies, not adding them back.

Example:
Set the crossover between sub and mids at 80hz on the MS-8.

MS-8 outputs the mids to the "rear" channels on my amp and the sub output to the "sub" channel on my amp.

Set the amp "rear" channels HPF to 100hz and the "sub" channels LPF to 60hz.

You should now have effectively created a frequency gap (underlap) between 60 - 100hz.


----------



## Darth SQ

Ganderson said:


> The original suggestion was to "underlap"... This would involve removing additional frequencies, not adding them back.
> 
> Example:
> Set the crossover between sub and mids at 80hz on the MS-8.
> 
> MS-8 outputs the mids to the "rear" channels on my amp and the sub output to the "sub" channel on my amp.
> 
> Set the amp "rear" channels HPF to 100hz and the "sub" channels LPF to 60hz.
> 
> You should now have effectively created a frequency gap (underlap) between 60 - 100hz.


Ok, got it.
Two separate amps receiving two separately adjusted signals from the ms-8.
Thx,
Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## thehatedguy

Why would you want to underlap?


----------



## Ganderson

pionkej said:


> Why not try underlapping your mid/sub crossover point? Say 63/100 and use your original slopes. There are a lot of cars that have a peak right at 80hz, maybe the ms8 is trying to "fix" it by reducing the midbass.
> 
> Worth a shot...right?


Just a suggestion from pionkej


----------



## blackknight87

SO much to learn about this MS8. I just installed mine this weekend. It sounds good for now. but im sure i will have some tweaking to do.


----------



## t3sn4f2

I think they should have charge an extra $100 for the MS-8 and added a dedicated instantaneous button to allow for toggling between to complete calibrations.


----------



## mr_5a

Hello, a newbie here Please, help!
(For the question if I had read the thread - no, I read about 100 pages and spend a days googling through it, but I didn't fine anything similar to my problem)
1. My remote control is very slow. Sometimes I have to push some button 5x to make it work. Sometimes it works without problem for a while. Sometimes I have to wait 10s. Once it even stopped working, I had to put the CR-battery out. Is this a feature or a bug? I tested battery, it's 3V.
2. Without DSP processing (ms-8 defeated) sound is quite ok. Not tuned, but listenable. Little too little bass I would say, the tweeters are two loud, the bass is quite unprecise and quiet, but it's much better than VW-OEM, which used to be there before. 
But when I click MS-8 Active, then the sound starts to be like from some metallic tube, really bad. Maybe AM radio would be very similar sound.
Activating L7 doesn't have much impact.
2.1. Could that be the microphone is bad?
2.2. Or should I check the speakers wireing? Is this the out of phase problem?
2.3. Or could that be the wireing HU-MS8?

I tried to config my system without subwoofer and the problem remains.
I tried to config my system with front speakers only and the problem remains.
I tried to config my system with rear speakers only and the problem remains.

My config is:
Volkswagen Multivan
RNS 510 head unit (12dB setting = cca 4V?) with stereo wiring output
2channels power wiring 
MS-8 with power wiring input
MS-8 RCA - FL,FR,RL,RR,Sub
RCA wiring to Sub, RCA wiring to Magnat amplifier
Alpine swe 1000 subwoofer
Magnat Edition Four amplifier - 4channels FL,FR,RL,RR
Front GTO6507c 2way speakers with passive Xover
Rear GT6-6c 2way speaker with passive Xover

The installation and wireing has been done by car service company.

Thanks for your answers,
Peter


----------



## rdv

Ganderson said:


> Yeah.. I'm stuck with my mids where they are.
> 
> Was your front stage more defined before you switched to the kaigoss method?


i cant say that it was. i mean it was pretty clear but it lacked midbass. i just couldnt get it to sound full enough even if i boosted the bass. after i took the subs out of the sub channels i got closer to the sound i was looking for. 

i would say the clarity was always there but it is more focused now because of the lower midrange/upper bass improvement. somehow i dont think it changed the sound of my mid/tweeter combo that much. they are cut off pretty high (900 or 1k)


----------



## rdv

mr_5a said:


> Hello, a newbie here Please, help!
> (For the question if I had read the thread - no, I read about 100 pages and spend a days googling through it, but I didn't fine anything similar to my problem)
> 1. My remote control is very slow. Sometimes I have to push some button 5x to make it work. Sometimes it works without problem for a while. Sometimes I have to wait 10s. Once it even stopped working, I had to put the CR-battery out. Is this a feature or a bug? I tested battery, it's 3V.
> 2. Without DSP processing (ms-8 defeated) sound is quite ok. Not tuned, but listenable. Little too little bass I would say, the tweeters are two loud, the bass is quite unprecise and quiet, but it's much better than VW-OEM, which used to be there before.
> But when I click MS-8 Active, then the sound starts to be like from some metallic tube, really bad. Maybe AM radio would be very similar sound.
> Activating L7 doesn't have much impact.
> 2.1. Could that be the microphone is bad?
> 2.2. Or should I check the speakers wireing? Is this the out of phase problem?
> 2.3. Or could that be the wireing HU-MS8?
> 
> I tried to config my system without subwoofer and the problem remains.
> I tried to config my system with front speakers only and the problem remains.
> I tried to config my system with rear speakers only and the problem remains.
> 
> My config is:
> Volkswagen Multivan
> RNS 510 head unit (12dB setting = cca 4V?) with stereo wiring output
> 2channels power wiring
> MS-8 with power wiring input
> MS-8 RCA - FL,FR,RL,RR,Sub
> RCA wiring to Sub, RCA wiring to Magnat amplifier
> Alpine swe 1000 subwoofer
> Magnat Edition Four amplifier - 4channels FL,FR,RL,RR
> Front GTO6507c 2way speakers with passive Xover
> Rear GT6-6c 2way speaker with passive Xover
> 
> The installation and wireing has been done by car service company.
> 
> Thanks for your answers,
> Peter


not sure about your remote problem. i never had that kind of an issue with mine however i do notice that there are times when the remote wont work and it seems to be related to where my hand is like if its lower or higher because it works as soon as i move my hand a little.

as for the tuning problems, when you say metallic, does it sound like something's broken or that the tune is not right? what are your xover points? checking you wiring could help as Andy has posted many times about the effects of wiring out of phase. how about your gains? 

my system is similar to yours (no center) but i have my tweeters and rears powered directly by the ms8 (no passives). i found that i get the best tune with my gains really low (almost minimum), specially for the sub. then after tuning i raise the gains on my mids and sub until im happy with the sound.


----------



## thehatedguy

Some of this who work around stuff is people confusing what they like vs what is right sounding. You may not like what is technically right.

And some of it has to do with nonoptimal speaker selection.


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> Some of this who work around stuff is people confusing what they like vs what is right sounding. You may not like what is technically right.
> 
> And some of it has to do with nonoptimal speaker selection and IMO a wrong selection of the speaker bandwith (aka Xover settings).


Kelvin


----------



## thehatedguy

Yes, that is very true too.


----------



## vrdublu

I tried reading most of this thread but I may have missed it......is JBL working on a work around or fix for the lack of mid bass as most people have suggested? Is there a firmware available?


----------



## subwoofery

vrdublu said:


> I tried reading most of this thread but I may have missed it......is JBL working on a work around or fix for the lack of mid bass as most people have suggested? Is there a firmware available?


Been discussed many times and IMO, it's user error. 

Another good explanation here: 


thehatedguy said:


> Some of this who work around stuff is people confusing what they like vs what is right sounding. You may not like what is technically right.
> 
> And some of it has to do with nonoptimal speaker selection.


Kelvin


----------



## FartinInTheTub

subwoofery said:


> Been discussed many times and IMO, it's user error.
> 
> Another good explanation here:
> 
> 
> Kelvin


I agree mostly Kelvin but I to have zero midbass... tried every x-over setting under the son. from 63-100hz. my doors are deadened well... 1" mdf baffle w/ clay around it. When I turn off the processing the doors open up and pound hard but when I hit active it's like my frontstage attenuates... Frustrating. I also find that I have to adjust system levels and fade a little to the front so my rearfill doesn't make my frontstage sound funny. I've spent hours on this thread and haven't got things right. Here's what I'm working with...

Highs - Scanspeak R3004/60-2000 - 3800hz 24db
Mids - Dynaudio MW-160 - 80hz 12db - 3800hz 24db
Lows - Morel Ultimo SC12 - 20hz-80db 12db

I ran the calibration at -28db with my headunit at 19 of 35
I'm running a CDA-9815 w/only the front RCAs going to the MS8.

The JL 900/5 has the gains all the way down on all channels and no filters or anything are engaged. I just can't seem to get a decent tune no matter what I do! Makes me consider going back to the way it was before the MS-8! At least I had good midbass and a strong front end. I know I'm a novice at setting this up but I don't feel I'm making too many mistakes when it comes to setup.


----------



## mr_5a

rdv said:


> not sure about your remote problem. i never had that kind of an issue with mine however i do notice that there are times when the remote wont work and it seems to be related to where my hand is like if its lower or higher because it works as soon as i move my hand a little.
> 
> as for the tuning problems, when you say metallic, does it sound like something's broken or that the tune is not right? what are your xover points? checking you wiring could help as Andy has posted many times about the effects of wiring out of phase. how about your gains?
> 
> my system is similar to yours (no center) but i have my tweeters and rears powered directly by the ms8 (no passives). i found that i get the best tune with my gains really low (almost minimum), specially for the sub. then after tuning i raise the gains on my mids and sub until im happy with the sound.


The remote - my lag is much worse than what you describe.

Do you mean this way?
CH1 powered tweeter FL
CH2 powered teweeter FR
CH3 RCA mid FL
CH4 RCA mid FR
CH5 powered RL (1way)
CH6 powered RR (1way)
CH8 RCA Sub

Metallic - I mean the sound is without any distortion, but really flat, little bit like submarine sound (e.g. The Beatles Yellow submarine start).

The gains - OK, thanks, I will try to fiddle, I have to dismount the seat, not very easy operation, some free weekend.

The xovers - No idea, there is no information, as the JBL GTO6507c has no info in specification. It's set of 2way speakers with their own passive crossovers. So maybe the way would be to cancel their crossover and break them away for separate channels. This will be quite complicated operation, so I first wanted to know if it could make any sense in my case. Currently I define them as 1way speaker system in MS8.


----------



## subwoofery

FartinInTheTub said:


> I agree mostly Kelvin but I to have zero midbass... tried every x-over setting under the son. from 63-100hz. my doors are deadened well... 1" mdf baffle w/ clay around it. When I turn off the processing the doors open up and pound hard but when I hit active it's like my frontstage attenuates... Frustrating. I also find that I have to adjust system levels and fade a little to the front so my rearfill doesn't make my frontstage sound funny. I've spent hours on this thread and haven't got things right. Here's what I'm working with...
> 
> Highs - Scanspeak R3004/60-2000 - 3800hz 24db
> Mids - Dynaudio MW-160 - 80hz 12db - 3800hz 24db
> Lows - Morel Ultimo SC12 - 20hz-80db 12db
> 
> I ran the calibration at -28db with my headunit at 19 of 35
> I'm running a CDA-9815 w/only the front RCAs going to the MS8.
> 
> The JL 900/5 has the gains all the way down on all channels and no filters or anything are engaged. I just can't seem to get a decent tune no matter what I do! Makes me consider going back to the way it was before the MS-8! At least I had good midbass and a strong front end. I know I'm a novice at setting this up but I don't feel I'm making too many mistakes when it comes to setup.


Might help you: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/112895-midbass-improved-after-increasing-sub-power.html 
Try to calibrate with your gains set a bit higher for the front output and the subwoofer's gain all the way down. Then after calibration, increase the gain on the subwoofer and see what it does... 
Try 18dB or 24dB or even 6dB/oct slope for your midbass. The MS-8 might not like how your mid couples with your subwoofer with a 12dB/oct slope. 
Also, did you try to reverse the subwoofer's polarity? 

Take your RTA out and play your subwoofer full range and check where your vehicle sucks frequencies - do the same for midbasses. 
If your subwoofer has a suck out around 70Hz, then you will need to X your midbass lower than that. If you have a suck out higher in freqs with your midbass then you would need to X your sub much higher. <-- understanding your vehicle's acoustic can only help you tune better. 

^ For your information, the best Xover point I could find for one of my car is: 
Subwoofer LP @ 31.5Hz 6dB/oct slope 
Midbass HP @ 100Hz 12dB/oct slope 
Many friends told me that it can't possibly sound good but my midbass is playing everything - and I mean everything... Much better midbass-subwoofer integration than my other car with an SI Mag v.4 

Don't follow the rules and play with what sounds good in YOUR vehicle. 

Kelvin


----------



## rain27

FartinInTheTub said:


> I agree mostly Kelvin but I to have zero midbass... tried every x-over setting under the son. from 63-100hz. my doors are deadened well... 1" mdf baffle w/ clay around it. When I turn off the processing the doors open up and pound hard but when I hit active it's like my frontstage attenuates... Frustrating. I also find that I have to adjust system levels and fade a little to the front so my rearfill doesn't make my frontstage sound funny. I've spent hours on this thread and haven't got things right. Here's what I'm working with...
> 
> Highs - Scanspeak R3004/60-2000 - 3800hz 24db
> Mids - Dynaudio MW-160 - 80hz 12db - 3800hz 24db
> Lows - Morel Ultimo SC12 - 20hz-80db 12db
> 
> I ran the calibration at -28db with my headunit at 19 of 35
> I'm running a CDA-9815 w/only the front RCAs going to the MS8.
> 
> The JL 900/5 has the gains all the way down on all channels and no filters or anything are engaged. I just can't seem to get a decent tune no matter what I do! Makes me consider going back to the way it was before the MS-8! At least I had good midbass and a strong front end. I know I'm a novice at setting this up but I don't feel I'm making too many mistakes when it comes to setup.


The MS-8 was supposed to make everything simpler, so if you find your sound is awful with absolutely no midbass at all, there is probably an issue elsewhere.

I have used the MS-8 with the JL HD 900/5 and kept the gains around 10 o'clock. When you run the sweeps, do you hear anything? The volume level on the source doesn't matter when running the sweeps.

Did you try to Kaigoss method for the midbass problem?

Did you make sure the polarity on your speakers is correct?


----------



## rain27

mr_5a said:


> Hello, a newbie here Please, help!
> (For the question if I had read the thread - no, I read about 100 pages and spend a days googling through it, but I didn't fine anything similar to my problem)
> 1. My remote control is very slow. Sometimes I have to push some button 5x to make it work. Sometimes it works without problem for a while. Sometimes I have to wait 10s. Once it even stopped working, I had to put the CR-battery out. Is this a feature or a bug? I tested battery, it's 3V.
> 2. Without DSP processing (ms-8 defeated) sound is quite ok. Not tuned, but listenable. Little too little bass I would say, the tweeters are two loud, the bass is quite unprecise and quiet, but it's much better than VW-OEM, which used to be there before.
> But when I click MS-8 Active, then the sound starts to be like from some metallic tube, really bad. Maybe AM radio would be very similar sound.
> Activating L7 doesn't have much impact.
> 2.1. Could that be the microphone is bad?
> 2.2. Or should I check the speakers wireing? Is this the out of phase problem?
> 2.3. Or could that be the wireing HU-MS8?
> 
> I tried to config my system without subwoofer and the problem remains.
> I tried to config my system with front speakers only and the problem remains.
> I tried to config my system with rear speakers only and the problem remains.
> 
> My config is:
> Volkswagen Multivan
> RNS 510 head unit (12dB setting = cca 4V?) with stereo wiring output
> 2channels power wiring
> MS-8 with power wiring input
> MS-8 RCA - FL,FR,RL,RR,Sub
> RCA wiring to Sub, RCA wiring to Magnat amplifier
> Alpine swe 1000 subwoofer
> Magnat Edition Four amplifier - 4channels FL,FR,RL,RR
> Front GTO6507c 2way speakers with passive Xover
> Rear GT6-6c 2way speaker with passive Xover
> 
> The installation and wireing has been done by car service company.
> 
> Thanks for your answers,
> Peter


I would first check polarity. The MS-8 cannot work around a polarity issue. 

Yes, a "1-way" is correct if using passive crossovers. 

However, if the remote is giving that much trouble, there may be something else wrong. Any way you could find another remote to make sure the remote is the issue and not the unit itself?


----------



## Darth SQ

FartinInTheTub said:


> I agree mostly Kelvin but I to have zero midbass... tried every x-over setting under the son. from 63-100hz. my doors are deadened well... 1" mdf baffle w/ clay around it. When I turn off the processing the doors open up and pound hard but when I hit active it's like my frontstage attenuates... Frustrating. I also find that I have to adjust system levels and fade a little to the front so my rearfill doesn't make my frontstage sound funny. I've spent hours on this thread and haven't got things right. Here's what I'm working with...
> 
> Highs - Scanspeak R3004/60-2000 - 3800hz 24db
> Mids - Dynaudio MW-160 - 80hz 12db - 3800hz 24db
> Lows - Morel Ultimo SC12 - 20hz-80db 12db
> 
> I ran the calibration at -28db with my headunit at 19 of 35
> I'm running a CDA-9815 w/only the front RCAs going to the MS8.
> 
> The JL 900/5 has the gains all the way down on all channels and no filters or anything are engaged. I just can't seem to get a decent tune no matter what I do! Makes me consider going back to the way it was before the MS-8! At least I had good midbass and a strong front end. I know I'm a novice at setting this up but I don't feel I'm making too many mistakes when it comes to setup.


You need to drive down to see Bing at SimplicityinSound in the bay area.
He posts on here as simplicityinsound.
He'll tune it right.

I truly heard magic from these ms-8s last Saturday.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## bonvivant

Are you running the center channel?


----------



## thehatedguy

My 600/4s gains are all about 1/3rd-1/2 way up. The sub is up a bit higher so I can bump when I want to- I have the JL RLC on the sub channel so I can adjust level after calibration if I want to bump some.

I normally run the sweeps around -40 on the MS-8 volume control. Which is pretty low, you could talk over it if you wanted to. The sub sweep ends up being about as loud as I can imitate the sweep in my head humming.

I have run the fronts from anywhere between 50 and 90 at 24 dB slopes and have had great midbass. But I have always ran a center. I tried to run the center down to 50, and even with the SDX7 up there, it is way too much bass information for a single 7...so I will be bumping it back up to 70-80 when I rerun the calibration again. Even at 100 hertz it was still fine.

I have pretty much always an a passive between the midranges and tweeters.

Make sure all of your speakers are in the correct polarity. Do not reverse polarity of any speaker...well if you made your own passives, you may need to invert one to get the right polarity, but prepackaged passives would have already taken that into account.

Beaming in the L7 system is bad. The wider you can keep your dispersion over the whole FR the better- you would want good dispersion up to 10k or so. This is more true with the fronts and center.

The processor can only "fix" so much stuff. So it is still very important to still follow good housekeeping rules with the install- levels, polarity, etc. You can't just throw randome stuff in random spots and expect miracles.


----------



## rain27

Ganderson said:


> Also, I've noticed a strange quirk/bug with mine.
> 
> If I'm playing my system with the volume really low, like below conversation level, the audio will fade over to the right mid and get all honky sounding like the processing is defeated. Turning up the system volume causes it to fade back to normal again. It's like the unit freaks out with the input voltage below a certain threshold.
> 
> It's not a sudden thing either, but just a smooth fade to the right and back again.
> 
> FYI, I'm leaving the MS-8 volume at -06db and using my HU volume exclusively.
> 
> Anyone else experienced this?


I've had issues like this where the sound would pan from left to right, etc.

Is your mic unplugged? This fixed the issue for me.


----------



## FartinInTheTub

rain27 said:


> The MS-8 was supposed to make everything simpler, so if you find your sound is awful with absolutely no midbass at all, there is probably an issue elsewhere.
> 
> I have used the MS-8 with the JL HD 900/5 and kept the gains around 10 o'clock. When you run the sweeps, do you hear anything? The volume level on the source doesn't matter when running the sweeps.
> 
> Did you try to Kaigoss method for the midbass problem?
> 
> Did you make sure the polarity on your speakers is correct?


The gains should be minimized on the 900/5 due to the 2v input I thought? Haven't tried to use the Kaigoss method... Was hoping to not do any workarounds... Just wanting to set things up right without "rigging" anything.


----------



## FartinInTheTub

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> You need to drive down to see Bing at SimplicityinSound in the bay area.
> He posts on here as simplicityinsound.
> He'll tune it right.
> 
> I truly heard magic from these ms-8s last Saturday.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


That would be great if it wasn't 1200 miles away Bret  Hoping to set this up right myself. Wish their was a member close who could help me out.


----------



## Darth SQ

FartinInTheTub said:


> That would be great if it wasn't 1200 miles away Bret  Hoping to set this up right myself. Wish their was a member close who could help me out.


For the sake of everyone else reading, where are you?
Just says Pacific Northwest.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## FartinInTheTub

bonvivant said:


> Are you running the center channel?


If this was directed to me... No, no center.


----------



## FartinInTheTub

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> For the sake of everyone else reading, where are you?
> Just says Pacific Northwest.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Tacoma, WA


----------



## FartinInTheTub

I'd like to check polarity... I have the Focal test CD but it's a little confusing trying to figure it out. wish their was an electronic way of checking this so I knew.


----------



## SoundJunkie

FartinInTheTub said:


> That would be great if it wasn't 1200 miles away Bret  Hoping to set this up right myself. Wish their was a member close who could help me out.


Maybe I can help you out! PM me and I will give you my phone number! 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## thehatedguy

Positive at the amp=positive at the speaker.

If you can see the speaker, you can take the wires out at the amp and pop it with a 9v battery. + at the battery goes + at the speaker wire and will make the cone move out. Don't do that with tweeters of you could cook them.


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## rain27

FartinInTheTub said:


> The gains should be minimized on the 900/5 due to the 2v input I thought? Haven't tried to use the Kaigoss method... Was hoping to not do any workarounds... Just wanting to set things up right without "rigging" anything.


My understanding is that if the MS-8 receives a higher voltage than it can handle (2.8), it just reduces it accordingly. In other words, a higher voltage neither hurts nor helps because the MS-8 will take only up to 2.8.

The unfortunate thing is that people seem to be pulling out all the stops to set up the MS-8 by using RTA's and setting gains just perfectly. It seems to defeat the purpose of a unit that was supposed to do everything for you.

I've never had issues with gain and the MS-8 and getting them to match perfectly. I don't think the MS-8 is that finicky. 

I haven't had any midbass issues, but tried the kaigoss method just to see if there was a difference. It sounded the same either way to me. So, the work around, if needed, may not be such a bad thing. I do understand you wanting to fix whatever the issue is without work arounds, however.

I think some of the main points are:
1. Set crossover points within what your speakers can handle.
2. Make sure polarity is correct.
3. Make sure the sweeps for all speakers are relatively at the same volume. For example, the sub sweep should not be overpowering compared to your front separates. Everything should be at a normal listening level.
4. Unplug the mic once calibration is complete.
5. Ideal speaker placement.

Once these things are checked, I would then start troubleshooting. Switch out head units if possible, use your MS-8 in someone else's car, etc., etc.


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## FartinInTheTub

SoundJunkie said:


> Maybe I can help you out! PM me and I will give you my phone number!
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


PM sent... Thanks.


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## FartinInTheTub

Got some solid advice from Erik (Soundjunkie) over the phone... gonna go out and do a lil tweeking! I'll post my results. Thanks everyone.


----------



## Ganderson

rain27 said:


> I've had issues like this where the sound would pan from left to right, etc.
> 
> Is your mic unplugged? This fixed the issue for me.


Definitely unplugged. I always unplug it immediately after calibration.


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## m0sdef

FartinInTheTub said:


> Got some solid advice from Erik (Soundjunkie) over the phone... gonna go out and do a lil tweeking! I'll post my results. Thanks everyone.


Willing to share the advice? I've been using a work around to get rid
of the boomy bass and lack of midbass.


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## FartinInTheTub

m0sdef said:


> Willing to share the advice? I've been using a work around to get rid
> of the boomy bass and lack of midbass.


My mids' polarity was reversed so that caused some hiccups. Also my crossover points weren't right for what I was looking for. Erik walked me through a few issues. I ended up going 24db on everything... 60hz for sub to mid, 3500 mid to tweeter. He also taught me a sweet trick that drastically improved my imaging and broadened my soundstage! When calibrating and it asked you to look towards the driver's mirror... look a little past it to the left and a little up, When asked to look at the passengar mirror look right at it but a little up. Raised, centered and broadened my frontstage! Very Happy! With all the changes my car sounds better than it EVER has! Now I can listen to songs louder and it blends seemlessly. The bass is smooth and controlled and is coming from the front. 

THANK YOU ERIK FOR TAKING THE TIME TO HELP OUT A FELLOW MEMBER!!! It made me so happy I ended up vacuuming out my car and washing it. lol. Gonna go listen to some more tunes! cya! epper:epper:epper:epper:epper:


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## FartinInTheTub

m0sdef said:


> Willing to share the advice? I've been using a work around to get rid
> of the boomy bass and lack of midbass.


Not to obligate Erik at all but I'm sure you could pm him and he'd give you some pointers.


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## BuickGN

One thing I've learned to do to improve midbass and sub to midbass integration is to get the sub sweep just right to where you have to boost the sub level a little via the MS8 once the calibration is done. Raising the sub level seems to boost the midbass as well and it blends better.


----------



## SoundJunkie

FartinInTheTub said:


> My mids' polarity was reversed so that caused some hiccups. Also my crossover points weren't right for what I was looking for. Erik walked me through a few issues. I ended up going 24db on everything... 60hz for sub to mid, 3500 mid to tweeter. He also taught me a sweet trick that drastically improved my imaging and broadened my soundstage! When calibrating and it asked you to look towards the driver's mirror... look a little past it to the left and a little up, When asked to look at the passengar mirror look right at it but a little up. Raised, centered and broadened my frontstage! Very Happy! With all the changes my car sounds better than it EVER has! Now I can listen to songs louder and it blends seemlessly. The bass is smooth and controlled and is coming from the front.
> 
> THANK YOU ERIK FOR TAKING THE TIME TO HELP OUT A FELLOW MEMBER!!! It made me so happy I ended up vacuuming out my car and washing it. lol. Gonna go listen to some more tunes! cya! epper:epper:epper:epper:epper:


I am just happy that you listened and tried out what I suggested! I sometimes hate to give out advice on here because inevitably someone will jump in with a three page thread of flaming....lol!! Sometimes unorthodox methods work out right in the real world, you just have to be willing to try! Remember the gain adjustments for your midbass/midrange at the amps are important as well. The most important thing is that you didn't give up on it, its a wonderful tool when set up properly and with quality components can make musical magic! ENJOY!!

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## thehatedguy

We've been telling you no need for the so called work arounds. When you have the basics done, the MS-8 does the rest and does it really well.


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## Ganderson

thehatedguy said:


> We've been telling you no need for the so called work arounds. When you have the basics done, the MS-8 does the rest and does it really well.


Yeah but I think Andy has acknowledged that there may be issues with some installs and that they are working on a fix so there must be _something_ to fix.... especially since it is a fairly common complaint.


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## thehatedguy

The only thing they have had issues with is the Bluetooth echo thing.


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## Ganderson

Ok, I must have mis-interpreted Andy's endorsement of the Kaigoss work-around while they work on a fix for the level matching issue.


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## subwoofery

FartinInTheTub said:


> I'd like to check polarity... I have the Focal test CD but it's a little confusing trying to figure it out. wish their was an electronic way of checking this so I knew.


There's an electronic way of checking this... http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/how-articles-provided-our-members/17-tuning-your-car-using-pc-based-measurement-setup.html 

Kelvin


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## Ganderson

I got my best overall tuning result to date last night.

Set it up as 3-way front with no sub.

Front HP: 20hz/12db
Lo/Mid: 80hz/24db
Mid/Hi: 4khz/24db

FL Hi / FR Hi: amp "front" channels -> tweets
FL Mid / FR Mid: amp "rear" channels -> mids
FL Lo / FR Lo: amp "sub" channel -> sub box

Sweeps measure ~ 75db all the way around.

Bass/mid bass integration is better than standard method and imaging is better than Kaigoss method.

It sounds pretty good right now... Need a couple more days of listening.


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## SWRocket

Ganderson said:


> I got my best overall tuning result to date last night.
> 
> Set it up as 3-way front with no sub.
> 
> Front HP: 20hz/12db
> Lo/Mid: 80hz/24db
> Mid/Hi: 4khz/24db
> 
> FL Hi / FR Hi: amp "front" channels -> tweets
> FL Mid / FR Mid: amp "rear" channels -> mids
> FL Lo / FR Lo: amp "sub" channel -> sub box
> 
> Sweeps measure ~ 75db all the way around.
> 
> Bass/mid bass integration is better than standard method and imaging is better than Kaigoss method.
> 
> It sounds pretty good right now... Need a couple more days of listening.


That's an interesting approach...Do you have two seperate subs? 
How many outputs for sub are you running out of the MS-8?


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## Ganderson

2 sub drivers wired together in the same box, so effectively 1 sub.

This approach requires you to use 2 MS-8 outputs for FL Lo & FR Lo. I run those into the R/L inputs on the HD900 sub channel which it sums together and outputs as mono power.


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## SWRocket

I have one morel 12 running of a mono output se2300 so I can try this.
Right now my stage is good but the sub/mid blend is not great.
Thanks for the tip.


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## m0sdef

Just finished calibrating without using any work arounds, and it sounds good! Spent some time making sure polarity of the speakers were correct. Gains set on the front, center and rear at 1/3 of the way up on the amp with the sub gain at the min with calibration done at -35. No more overwhelming loud sub bass, midbass is excellent. 

It was user error on my part when setting the gain on the sub on previous calibrations. I was level matching the gain of the sub to the other speakers like what others were doing, but that lead to boomy/overly loud sub bass and lack of midbass in my case. If others are having that problem, try turning your sub gain down more before calibrating.


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## thehatedguy

That is why I have a RLC on my sub...so I can turn it down for calibration and up if I want to bump. The quality of the bass stays the same, I just get more or less of it.


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## mdavis007

FartinInTheTub said:


> My mids' polarity was reversed so that caused some hiccups. Also my crossover points weren't right for what I was looking for. Erik walked me through a few issues. I ended up going 24db on everything... 60hz for sub to mid, 3500 mid to tweeter. He also taught me a sweet trick that drastically improved my imaging and broadened my soundstage! When calibrating and it asked you to look towards the driver's mirror... look a little past it to the left and a little up, When asked to look at the passengar mirror look right at it but a little up. Raised, centered and broadened my frontstage! Very Happy! With all the changes my car sounds better than it EVER has! Now I can listen to songs louder and it blends seemlessly. The bass is smooth and controlled and is coming from the front.
> 
> THANK YOU ERIK FOR TAKING THE TIME TO HELP OUT A FELLOW MEMBER!!! It made me so happy I ended up vacuuming out my car and washing it. lol. Gonna go listen to some more tunes! cya! epper:epper:epper:epper:epper:


Been trying to get my system dialed in. It always sounds OK. Well I tried these tips out and it made a big difference. My bass, mid and low, sound much better, cleaner. So thanks for sharing.


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## FartinInTheTub

mdavis007 said:


> Been trying to get my system dialed in. It always sounds OK. Well I tried these tips out and it made a big difference. My bass, mid and low, sound much better, cleaner. So thanks for sharing.


I appreciate that and am happy it worked out for you! Thanks however goes to Erik(Soundjunkie)... He took the time to help me out. Enjoy your system man!


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## t3sn4f2

Looking up or down can not make a difference. The inside of our ear lobe is what allow us to hear on the vertical plane, or for a DSP to see a change from the mics input. Higher short waved frequencies bounce around in the ear lobe and we get our perspective off that. And since the mics don't have that and only a flat face, then there can't be a difference.


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## Ganderson

Depending on your neck/head geometry, looking up could place the mics further back than normal head position, which could be the difference they are hearing.


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## t3sn4f2

Ganderson said:


> Depending on your neck/head geometry, looking up could place the mics further back than normal head position, which could be the difference they are hearing.


I see what you are saying but both ear would move the same distance forward or back unless you tilted your head to the side somewhat. Which I don't do when I try and is uncomfortable even when I want to. The resulting differences are still equal for both ear from the speaker. 

Further to the left, yes since there you are affect phase, amplitude, and FR from head showding differences.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> There are two ways to eliminate the peaks and dips that are caused by reflections--comb filtering--from the measurement: spatial averaging and spectral averaging. We use both. The measurements are averaged spatially and then the response is averaged spectrally when the EQ filters are applied. The differences between the different head angles are small, but if you turn your head so far that both speakers (weeters mostly) are far off axis in measurements 3 and 4, you'll have more high frequency in the resulting curve. A big difference in the placement of the mic for all 4 measurements (tall person vs. very short person) will result in different listening experiences. We remove comb filtering from the measurement because we don't hear it and EQing to remove the high frequency part of the comb is unnecessary and results in bad sound.
> 
> Through the course of developing MS-8, some of the DSP guys have developed a spectral average that performs almost as well as the spatial average (95% or so), and that alogrithm will appear in a much simpler product one of these days. It only requires a single measurement and is designed for a very specific (but very popular) use case.


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## Kiong34

Hi I am running the following set-up
tweeter - MS8
Mid Bass - 2 channel amp
Sub - mono amp

I notice the tweeters sound softer the mid bass and sub during sweeps.
And i cannot get good sound stage. Seems like the mid bass and sub is too loud compare to the tweeter. but when i try to turn the gain down on the mid bass it sound too soft and won't work at all.

How should i solve this problem?
At what volume should the sweep be? -40? -30?

Please help.


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## SoundJunkie

t3sn4f2 said:


> Looking up or down can not make a difference. The inside of our ear lobe is what allow us to hear on the vertical plane, or for a DSP to see a change from the mics input. Higher short waved frequencies bounce around in the ear lobe and we get our perspective off that. And since the mics don't have that and only a flat face, then there can't be a difference.



See what I mean....???? LOL!! Just try it, don't try to justify it! Like I said before, sometimes unorthodox methods have profound results. I am glad my advice is helping others enjoy their systems, and music, more! Now for those of you running pillar mounted mids and tweets and door mounted midbass and can't quite get your image in the center or correct L/R balance I have a tip which will help this too!

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## mdavis007

I don't know that looking up really helped I think trying everything at 24db and changing my crossover points from 80 to 60 and 4500 to 3500 is what is making it sound better. I also took a tip from M0sdef and set my amp gains at 1/3 of the way up. Either way I'm just happy it's sounding better. So thanks to all those who post constructive advice even if it seems like it's out in left field.


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## sandfleee

I have been very pleased with the MS-8.

Yesterday, I had to temporarily remove it for unrelated system repairs, and when re-installing somehow broke the display jack inside the main unit.

I have read that this is unfortunately a common occurance.

The unit is NOT under warranty.

I will begin today looking locally (Ft. Lauderdale area) for a local electronics repair shop to properly resolder the connection, but would appreciate it if anyone here could recommend someone (from the site, or a shop) experienced with the MS-8 and/or repairs of this nature. 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions or advice.

Craig


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## stefanhinote

I recently installed an ms-8 and with the processing set to active, it's pretty dull and lifeless. With the processing set to defeat, it "comes alive."

The vehicle is a 2002 volvo v40.
equipment: 2 exodus ex-anarchy and 2 peerless hds tweets.
using 4 channel amp with all XO and EQ off.

I've checked the speaker polarity.
I've tried unplugging the mic after finishing the run through.
I've tried the volume set to -40db when doing the sweeps, I've tried it loud as well.
I've tried looking in the center of the windshield for the sweeps, and looking slightly above the mirrors.

I've sat in the vehicle for 20 hours+ trying tons of crossover points and slopes, playing with EQ, but no matter what, it ALWAYS sounds better with processing set to defeat.

I'm currently using the ms8 with the processing set to defeat (which I'm pretty content with), but I feel like I'm not taking full advantage of what the ms8 can really do if I could just get the processing to really work.

Does anyone have any input or tips to try out? It would be much appreciated.


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## t3sn4f2

stefanhinote said:


> I recently installed an ms-8 and with the processing set to active, it's pretty dull and lifeless. With the processing set to defeat, it "comes alive."
> 
> The vehicle is a 2002 volvo v40.
> equipment: 2 exodus ex-anarchy and 2 peerless hds tweets.
> using 4 channel amp with all XO and EQ off.
> 
> I've checked the speaker polarity.
> I've tried unplugging the mic after finishing the run through.
> I've tried the volume set to -40db when doing the sweeps, I've tried it loud as well.
> I've tried looking in the center of the windshield for the sweeps, and looking slightly above the mirrors.
> 
> I've sat in the vehicle for 20 hours+ trying tons of crossover points and slopes, playing with EQ, but no matter what, it ALWAYS sounds better with processing set to defeat.
> 
> I'm currently using the ms8 with the processing set to defeat (which I'm pretty content with), but I feel like I'm not taking full advantage of what the ms8 can really do if I could just get the processing to really work.
> 
> Does anyone have any input or tips to try out? It would be much appreciated.


Have you tried using an mp3 player on the aux in to see if its the headunit thats the problem? And checking that any surround processing is off on the headunit (if an option of course).


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## stefanhinote

t3sn4f2 said:


> Have you tried using an mp3 player on the aux in to see if its the headunit thats the problem? And checking that any surround processing is off on the headunit (if an option of course).


Everything on the HU is off or set to flat.

I've been using CDs and aux in (ipad) to hu to ms8.
I'll try the ipad directly into the aux in on ms8, thanks.

Note: I'm also using tracks from the Focal JMlab cds, so the quality is good.


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## Ganderson

stefanhinote said:


> Everything on the HU is off or set to flat.
> 
> I've been using CDs and aux in (ipad) to hu to ms8.
> I'll try the ipad directly into the aux in on ms8, thanks.
> 
> Note: I'm also using tracks from the Focal JMlab cds, so the quality is good.


I'm assuming that by "comes alive" we are talking about tonality (EQ)?

Do the imaging and staging sound better with the processing active?


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## stefanhinote

Ganderson said:


> I'm assuming that by "comes alive" we are talking about tonality (EQ)?
> 
> Do the imaging and staging sound better with the processing active?


Yes tonality.

Imaging does seem to be better with active on.


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## Ganderson

stefanhinote said:


> Yes tonality.
> 
> Imaging does seem to be better with active on.


Can you describe in detail what you feel is missing? (ie shimmer from cymbals, air in vocals, presence from guitars)


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## sandfleee

sandfleee said:


> I have been very pleased with the MS-8.
> 
> Yesterday, I had to temporarily remove it for unrelated system repairs, and when re-installing somehow broke the display jack inside the main unit.
> 
> I have read that this is unfortunately a common occurance.
> 
> The unit is NOT under warranty.
> 
> I will begin today looking locally (Ft. Lauderdale area) for a local electronics repair shop to properly resolder the connection, but would appreciate it if anyone here could recommend someone (from the site, or a shop) experienced with the MS-8 and/or repairs of this nature.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any suggestions or advice.
> 
> Craig



Disassembled the unit...pcb board comes out out rather easily. The display jack broke completely free, and was rattling around inside the unit.

I may brush the dust off my mini soldering iron, pick up a spool of rosin core, and try to repair this myself, as I am having no luck finding someone. 

I havent tried to find a service manual or schematics yet (I will), but have to assume others have had to make this very same repair. 

Are all 4 "legs" of the display jack soldered to the pcb? If so, are any "through-hole" , whereby being connected to the bottom of the pcb or are they all soldered on the face of the pcb?

Again, any help would be GREATLY appreciated.


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## 14642

Send the unit back. You won't be able to repair it. Next time, be sure you mount the unit in a way that doesn't allow anything to put pressure on the connector.


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## stefanhinote

Ganderson said:


> Can you describe in detail what you feel is missing? (ie shimmer from cymbals, air in vocals, presence from guitars)


In Active, everything sounds very shallow, as if you turned the treble setting on the HU -10 or something.

Turning the treble setting up on the ms8 overall doesn't help.

Normally I'd relate treble to the higher spectrum, but here everything has that shallow sound, drums vocals, instruments, etc.

I switch to defeat, everything is crisp & clear with an impact.

I saw a few people on here doing firmware upgrades, but I haven't been able to find any links to the downloads, and I just bought my ms8 so it may very well have the last update. Hmm.


Also tried plugging in the Ipad directly into the ms8, didn't make any difference.


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## Frank Drebin

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Send the unit back. You won't be able to repair it. Next time, be sure you mount the unit in a way that doesn't allow anything to put pressure on the connector.


Same thing happened to me...I was fortunate that I was uninstalling the unit because of a factory shipped problem (an internal ground of some sort) but I had the same thing where I forgot to unhook the display and the cord pulled out of the MS8 and basically destroyed the connection at the unit. My unit was replaced under warranty.

Just something for all the MS8 DIYers to be aware of.


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## Frank Drebin

Quick check before I install my MS8 later this week.

My full range signal from the factory HU (dodge ram, RHR/730N) consists of 
Front Dash (highs)
Front doors (mids)
Factory sub (low)

Now, the way I read the manual is that it doesn't matter how I input these 6 signals, as long as the subs are on input 7 and 8? Is this correct?


ie) it wouldn't matter if I went
Rdsh 1
Ldr 2
Ldsh 3
R dr 4

The MS8 will separate L-R internally, and sum the frequencies?

Gonna run my CK6's active until I get my XR Duos...I was thinking of a crossover point of [email protected] db slope. Thoughts?


----------



## stefanhinote

stefanhinote said:


> In Active, everything sounds very shallow, as if you turned the treble setting on the HU -10 or something.
> 
> Turning the treble setting up on the ms8 overall doesn't help.
> 
> Normally I'd relate treble to the higher spectrum, but here everything has that shallow sound, drums vocals, instruments, etc.
> 
> I switch to defeat, everything is crisp & clear with an impact.
> 
> I saw a few people on here doing firmware upgrades, but I haven't been able to find any links to the downloads, and I just bought my ms8 so it may very well have the last update. Hmm.
> 
> 
> Also tried plugging in the Ipad directly into the ms8, didn't make any difference.


I feel that I'm pretty competent in this matter but the results are far from good unless I'm in defeat. I can't imagine some average joe adding this to their stock stereo and being content. There isn't anything abnormal about my vehicle that would "throw everything off", and all the functions in the menus work, so I don't feel like it's defective. I guess I could try running the sweeps with the mic on my head and thrown somewhere in the back (see if there's any difference, perhaps the mic is bad?)


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## stefanhinote

Frank Drebin said:


> Quick check before I install my MS8 later this week.
> 
> My full range signal from the factory HU (dodge ram, RHR/730N) consists of
> Front Dash (highs)
> Front doors (mids)
> Factory sub (low)
> 
> Now, the way I read the manual is that it doesn't matter how I input these 6 signals, as long as the subs are on input 7 and 8? Is this correct?
> 
> 
> ie) it wouldn't matter if I went
> Rdsh 1
> Ldr 2
> Ldsh 3
> R dr 4
> 
> The MS8 will separate L-R internally, and sum the frequencies?
> 
> Gonna run my CK6's active until I get my XR Duos...I was thinking of a crossover point of [email protected] db slope. Thoughts?


Just to make things simple, I would do

Channel 1 : front high left
Channel 2 : front high right
Channel 3 : front mid left (according to the manual this would be left side)
Channel 4 : front mid right (according to the manual this would be right side)

Channel 7 : sub
Channel 8 : sub

Then the ms8 will "put together" channels 1-4 for your mids and highs.


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## Frank Drebin

stefanhinote said:


> Just to make things simple, I would do
> 
> Channel 1 : front high left
> Channel 2 : front high right
> Channel 3 : front mid left (according to the manual this would be left side)
> Channel 4 : front mid right (according to the manual this would be right side)
> 
> Channel 7 : sub
> Channel 8 : sub
> 
> Then the ms8 will "put together" channels 1-4 for your mids and highs.


Yeah I will do something like that vs. random, Just wondering if there was a specific sequence I should do, as there are a lot of combinations 

R-R-L-L
H-M-H-M
L-L-R-R

etc, etc.


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## 14642

stefanhinote said:


> I recently installed an ms-8 and with the processing set to active, it's pretty dull and lifeless. With the processing set to defeat, it "comes alive."
> 
> The vehicle is a 2002 volvo v40.
> equipment: 2 exodus ex-anarchy and 2 peerless hds tweets.
> using 4 channel amp with all XO and EQ off.
> 
> I've checked the speaker polarity.
> I've tried unplugging the mic after finishing the run through.
> I've tried the volume set to -40db when doing the sweeps, I've tried it loud as well.
> I've tried looking in the center of the windshield for the sweeps, and looking slightly above the mirrors.
> 
> I've sat in the vehicle for 20 hours+ trying tons of crossover points and slopes, playing with EQ, but no matter what, it ALWAYS sounds better with processing set to defeat.
> 
> I'm currently using the ms8 with the processing set to defeat (which I'm pretty content with), but I feel like I'm not taking full advantage of what the ms8 can really do if I could just get the processing to really work.
> 
> Does anyone have any input or tips to try out? It would be much appreciated.


It could be that you just don't like the way MS-8 sets the EQ.


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## OrangeDub

Quick question on rear fill:

Looking for an appropriate driver, can anybody tell me what frequency range is required for the rear fill speakers? What does the MS-8 send back there?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## stefanhinote

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> It could be that you just don't like the way MS-8 sets the EQ.


Then I guess I'll stick with XOs, Slopes, and the graphical band EQ.


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## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Logic 7 steers out of phase informtion to the rear. For real recordings made in real spaces, this works great. For studio recordings made using all sorts of digital effects, all kinds of stuff can happen. The guy doing the mix may decide to put sounds out of phase to enhance the width, make things sound strange, you name it. *For tracks converted to MP3 without using high bit rates or encoding in joint stereo, phase information isn't well preserved between left and right.* That can cause some strange steering too. Logic 7 isn't malfunctioning, it's doing exactly what it was designed to do. On some recordings, you may not like what it does for the rear speakers. In those cases, turn it off. If you have a center channel, then fade more toward the front.


Andy, _exactly_ how big of a problem is joint stereo for rear output. My entire library seems to be encoded in joint stereo but at 256-320kbps.


----------



## subwoofery

OrangeDub said:


> Quick question on rear fill:
> 
> Looking for an appropriate driver, can anybody tell me what frequency range is required for the rear fill speakers? What does the MS-8 send back there?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1236183-post28.html 

Kelvin


----------



## phy1708

Hi. I've been using ms-8 for about a year now and thinking of changing my rear speakers. But I'm not quite sure if this replacement will help improve my sound in any way.

My rear speakers are 3" full-range units high-passed at 200 or 250Hz (I can't remember the exact cutoff frequency because I haven't done the calibration in months)...

These 3" speakers were installed for 5.1 channel purpose when I had an Alpine PXA-H900, which was replaced with DRZ9255(built-in DSP) and then bit one, and lastly ms-8.

I'm looking for a 5.25" coaxial or component for lower high-pass frequency, for more midbass reproduction in the rear channels...(6.5" will be fine too if it can be easily installed in the rear deck of my car)

The reason I'm considering this replacement is that, with L7 on, rear channels reproduce out-of-phase sound and much of the phase information is AFAIK in the midbass frequency. That is, I want to make full use of L7 capability in ms-8.

Till now, I always set L7 off because I couldn't really hear any significant difference with L7 on or off. Sometimes it sounded better with L7 off.

Now, if I replace the 3" rear speakers with 5.25" or 6.5", will it improve the overall sound with L7 on?

I searched this thread for relevant information, but found not much. So I'd like to ask for some advice about what I'm going to do.

My current setup is JVC KW-AVX836(headunit), Morel Elate 2-way(front) bi-amped(mid by 150w x 2, tweet by 50w x 2), 3" full range(rear) powered by 50w x 2, Polkaudio 12" Sub (500W RMS) powered by about 450-500W(150w x 2 bridged), and MS-8.....No center channel(not possible with my current car)..

For the 5.25" rears, I considered Morel Integra at first. But Morel Integra speakears are a bit expensive, and now I'm considering Audison Voce AV X5, which can be bought at an affordable price, and which is believed (by me) to sound almost as good as Morel Integra.

Or.....should I just turn off the rear channel and L7, and focus on the fronts?


----------



## sandfleee

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Send the unit back. You won't be able to repair it. Next time, be sure you mount the unit in a way that doesn't allow anything to put pressure on the connector.


First Andy, I would like to thank you for all the help you provide, day in and day out regarding this product. No doubt, it must be very stressfull/frustrating at times for you to constantly be repeating yourself, over and over, to individuals who do not properly research a question before posting it.

With that being said, please...and yes...I did say please, with all due respect sir, remember that this is a DIY site...and as such comments like, "you cant fix it"...well..to some of us, can be offensive. While I may not be an electrical engineer, or have the practical experience that you do with the MS-8 I find it a bit "unreasonable" for you to assume "I cant" do anything 

That being said, I do believe if I were in your shoes...I'd be saying the exact same thing for obvious reasons...well...maybe not quite those exact words..but close enough...

After reading your response, I found the service manual online, resoldered the connection, and tested the unit. It functioned, but 1 connection is somewhat "loose" IMO, and still needs addressing... 

For the record, I broke the connection while plugging the cable in. I didnt push very hard..but it didnt matter. This is not "installation" or "location" related.

As stated this morning, in a previous post which got no response, the unit is out of warranty. If my repair does not work properly or doesnt last, than I will need to send it for service.. although of the 3 authorized repair centers I did contact (listed on your site/South Florida area) none were responsive (phone or email).

Thanks again for all that you do here, it is sincerely appreciated.


----------



## stefanhinote

I agree with what Sandfleee has to say, I truly appreciate all the time you (Adam) are putting into this and all the help you giving.


----------



## subwoofery

phy1708 said:


> Hi. I've been using ms-8 for about a year now and thinking of changing my rear speakers. But I'm not quite sure if this replacement will help improve my sound in any way.
> 
> My rear speakers are 3" full-range units high-passed at 200 or 250Hz (I can't remember the exact cutoff frequency because I haven't done the calibration in months)...
> 
> These 3" speakers were installed for 5.1 channel purpose when I had an Alpine PXA-H900, which was replaced with DRZ9255(built-in DSP) and then bit one, and lastly ms-8.
> 
> I'm looking for a 5.25" coaxial or component for lower high-pass frequency, for more midbass reproduction in the rear channels...(6.5" will be fine too if it can be easily installed in the rear deck of my car)
> 
> The reason I'm considering this replacement is that, with L7 on, rear channels reproduce out-of-phase sound and much of the phase information is AFAIK in the midbass frequency. That is, I want to make full use of L7 capability in ms-8.
> 
> Till now, I always set L7 off because I couldn't really hear any significant difference with L7 on or off. Sometimes it sounded better with L7 off.
> 
> Now, if I replace the 3" rear speakers with 5.25" or 6.5", will it improve the overall sound with L7 on?
> 
> I searched this thread for relevant information, but found not much. So I'd like to ask for some advice about what I'm going to do.
> 
> My current setup is JVC KW-AVX836(headunit), Morel Elate 2-way(front) bi-amped(mid by 150w x 2, tweet by 50w x 2), 3" full range(rear) powered by 50w x 2, Polkaudio 12" Sub (500W RMS) powered by about 450-500W(150w x 2 bridged), and MS-8.....No center channel(not possible with my current car)..
> 
> For the 5.25" rears, I considered Morel Integra at first. But Morel Integra speakears are a bit expensive, and now I'm considering Audison Voce AV X5, which can be bought at an affordable price, and which is believed (by me) to sound almost as good as Morel Integra.
> 
> Or.....should I just turn off the rear channel and L7, and focus on the fronts?


Please read my post above yours... 

Kelvin


----------



## t3sn4f2

sandfleee said:


> First Andy, I would like to thank you for all the help you provide, day in and day out regarding this product. No doubt, it must be very stressfull/frustrating at times for you to constantly be repeating yourself, over and over, to individuals who do not properly research a question before posting it.
> 
> With that being said, please...and yes...I did say please, with all due respect sir, remember that this is a DIY site...and as such comments like, "you cant fix it"...well..to some of us, can be offensive. While I may not be an electrical engineer, or have the practical experience that you do with the MS-8 I find it a bit "unreasonable" for you to assume "I cant" do anything
> 
> That being said, I do believe if I were in your shoes...I'd be saying the exact same thing for obvious reasons...well...maybe not quite those exact words..but close enough...
> 
> After reading your response, I found the service manual online, resoldered the connection, and tested the unit. It functioned, but 1 connection is somewhat "loose" IMO, and still needs addressing...
> 
> For the record, I broke the connection while plugging the cable in. I didnt push very hard..but it didnt matter. This is not "installation" or "location" related.
> 
> As stated this morning, in a previous post which got no response, the unit is out of warranty. If my repair does not work properly or doesnt last, than I will need to send it for service.. although of the 3 authorized repair centers I did contact (listed on your site/South Florida area) none were responsive (phone or email).
> 
> Thanks again for all that you do here, it is sincerely appreciated.


Can you please PM a link to the service manual?


----------



## phy1708

subwoofery said:


> Please read my post above yours...
> 
> Kelvin


I think I've gone through that FAQ already....what I remember from that FAQ is that with L7 on, rears should not go lower than 100Hz, while with L7 off, rears may go lower than 100Hz.

Does this mean that rears need to reproduce bass as low as 100Hz, if I want to make full advantage of L7?


----------



## subwoofery

phy1708 said:


> I think I've gone through that FAQ already....what I remember from that FAQ is that with L7 on, rears should not go lower than 100Hz, while with L7 off, rears may go lower than 100Hz.
> 
> Does this mean that rears need to reproduce bass as low as 100Hz, if I want to make full advantage of L7?


In my understanding, it's not worth the money to upgrade rear speakers coz you're not using it below 100Hz. 
NOW... You're using a widebander and Andy highly recommended the use of a tweeter for the rears. 
^ that last one is a good enough reason to upgrade your rear speakers... 

Kelvin


----------



## kaigoss69

thehatedguy said:


> We've been telling you no need for the so called work arounds. When you have the basics done, the MS-8 does the rest and does it really well.


If you can get the midbass to play "right" in my car without my workaround, I'll buy you all the beer you can drink! 

By "right" I mean I want it to sound tight, crisp and LOUD.

My car has 10" midbass drivers under the seats playing 50 - 150Hz. I believe the issue in my car is somewhat isolated to the OEM speaker configuration itself, since others have had similar experiences. This also seems to be true for Corvettes. Large midbass drivers + small mids = no midbass.


----------



## subwoofery

kaigoss69 said:


> If you can get the midbass to play "right" in my car without my workaround, I'll buy you all the beer you can drink!
> 
> By "right" I mean I want it to sound tight, crisp and LOUD.
> 
> My car has 10" midbass drivers under the seats playing 50 - 150Hz. I believe the issue in my car is somewhat isolated to the OEM speaker configuration itself, since others have had similar experiences. This also seems to be true for Corvettes. Large midbass drivers + small mids = no midbass.


Did you try to cross your midbasses @ 63Hz-800Hz? 

Kelvin


----------



## trojan fan

When is the 2.0 model due out :laugh:


----------



## cmahood

Hi, I'm going to buy one of these in the near future, but want to know what front stage speaker configurations this will support.

I have a set of PPI 356cs comps installed for the front stage, using the PPI crossovers. I would also like to use the two dash speakers, and maybe the center speaker as well. 

Can the MS-8 handle essentially two sets of full-range front speakers? (Dash and comps.)

Another alternative would be to use the dash speakers as full range, and get a dedicated midbass for the doors for a 3 way setup. Can the MS-8 handle this?


Thanks


----------



## 14642

sandfleee said:


> First Andy, I would like to thank you for all the help you provide, day in and day out regarding this product. No doubt, it must be very stressfull/frustrating at times for you to constantly be repeating yourself, over and over, to individuals who do not properly research a question before posting it.
> 
> With that being said, please...and yes...I did say please, with all due respect sir, remember that this is a DIY site...and as such comments like, "you cant fix it"...well..to some of us, can be offensive. While I may not be an electrical engineer, or have the practical experience that you do with the MS-8 I find it a bit "unreasonable" for you to assume "I cant" do anything
> 
> That being said, I do believe if I were in your shoes...I'd be saying the exact same thing for obvious reasons...well...maybe not quite those exact words..but close enough...
> 
> After reading your response, I found the service manual online, resoldered the connection, and tested the unit. It functioned, but 1 connection is somewhat "loose" IMO, and still needs addressing...
> 
> For the record, I broke the connection while plugging the cable in. I didnt push very hard..but it didnt matter. This is not "installation" or "location" related.
> 
> As stated this morning, in a previous post which got no response, the unit is out of warranty. If my repair does not work properly or doesnt last, than I will need to send it for service.. although of the 3 authorized repair centers I did contact (listed on your site/South Florida area) none were responsive (phone or email).
> 
> Thanks again for all that you do here, it is sincerely appreciated.


My suggetsion that "you" can't fix it has nothing to do with you in particular. It's a 6-layer board and when those connections are destroyed, it doesn't come back to life. The service center won't fix it either because it's likely that the pad on the board is now gone, and that pad (depending on which one it is) may include a connection to another layer. If you can trace the connection and add a jumper, then, by all means, go ahead.


----------



## thehatedguy

Why do you want to play your midbasses for an octave and half? All they are doing is serving as a filler driver at that point.

At that point, you could probably raise your sub up high enough to negate having them. 

I'm 40 minutes west of Charlotte down I-85 in Kings Mountain. Where in SC are you?




kaigoss69 said:


> If you can get the midbass to play "right" in my car without my workaround, I'll buy you all the beer you can drink!
> 
> By "right" I mean I want it to sound tight, crisp and LOUD.
> 
> My car has 10" midbass drivers under the seats playing 50 - 150Hz. I believe the issue in my car is somewhat isolated to the OEM speaker configuration itself, since others have had similar experiences. This also seems to be true for Corvettes. Large midbass drivers + small mids = no midbass.


----------



## sandfleee

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> My suggetsion that "you" can't fix it has nothing to do with you in particular. It's a 6-layer board and when those connections are destroyed, it doesn't come back to life. The service center won't fix it either because it's likely that the pad on the board is now gone, and that pad (depending on which one it is) may include a connection to another layer. If you can trace the connection and add a jumper, then, by all means, go ahead.


I havent had luck contacting local authorized repair centers directly. Should I be calling JBL?


----------



## 14642

Yes, contact customer service through www.JBL.com. We don't service MS-8, we replace it, for now. I find it surprising that it's "out of warranty", unless this is another one of those third hand sales that isn't covered.


----------



## 14642

thehatedguy said:


> Why do you want to play your midbasses for an octave and half? All they are doing is serving as a filler driver at that point.
> 
> At that point, you could probably raise your sub up high enough to negate having them.
> 
> I'm 40 minutes west of Charlotte down I-85 in Kings Mountain. Where in SC are you?


I suggest crossing the midbass over from 70 or 80 to 300 or so, but what do I know?


----------



## thehatedguy

I dunno...dunno why I have done everything you have said to do to a T and have had excellent results.


----------



## Ganderson

Hi Andy,

Did you ever have a chance to verify the ideal SPL range for the sweeps?

I know you guessed 85db at one point...


----------



## 14642

Far too much has been made of the volume of the sweeps. So long as you don't actually feel the sub, it works fine. I haven't had the opportunity to get in a car with an SPL meter yet. Sorry.


----------



## 14642

thehatedguy said:


> I dunno...dunno why I have done everything you have said to do to a T and have had excellent results.


Cool, but did you convert everything to line level, install a 100V line driver, have your amplifiers modified to accept a 100V signal (by adding an additional gold plated 1/4 watt resistor to the inputs), wrap your platinum plated flat speaker wire aroung the gear shift thrice after coating it with rendered chicken fat to make the electrons more slippery and then modify the microphone by installing calibrated B&K elements in a pair of Beats cans?

If not, you haven't experienced the true sonic nirvana that MS-8 can provide an installer who cares enough to do a really good installation.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Damn it man! What about joint stereo encoding and rear output funkiness?


----------



## Ganderson

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Far too much has been made of the volume of the sweeps. So long as you don't actually feel the sub, it works fine. I haven't had the opportunity to get in a car with an SPL meter yet. Sorry.


Cool... The reason I ask is that for whatever reason with my setup if I go with the popular recommendation (amp gains @ 2v, MS-8 vol. @ -30) the sweeps are REALLY quiet. To get the sweeps into the 68 - 70db range I have to turn my amp gains up 1/4 of the way and the MS-8 up to -20. I usually run it at -15 actually.

A lot has been made of the sweep volume because it seems to be one of the top causes of problems and it would be nice to have a more concrete recommendation from JBL based on how the hardware/software actually works and it's limitations.


----------



## Babs

I can imagine my sweeps would be more accurate without that absolutely nasty rear deck rattle when the sub kicks up. The install is everything. So glad I've got some ccf left.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## thehatedguy

If your rear deck is rattling, then the sub is too loud. If you can talk over the sub during the sweep, then you will be fine. As long as you can hear it mid way through is a good volume level.


----------



## thehatedguy

Did all of that in addition to placing Shakti stones on everything and bags of crystals on all of the electronics and inside the speaker enclosures. 

I tried cable elevators and Bybee Quantum purifiers, but they weren't synergistic with the battery biased cables I had...though Energizer was better than Duracell there...



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Cool, but did you convert everything to line level, install a 100V line driver, have your amplifiers modified to accept a 100V signal (by adding an additional gold plated 1/4 watt resistor to the inputs), wrap your platinum plated flat speaker wire aroung the gear shift thrice after coating it with rendered chicken fat to make the electrons more slippery and then modify the microphone by installing calibrated B&K elements in a pair of Beats cans?
> 
> If not, you haven't experienced the true sonic nirvana that MS-8 can provide an installer who cares enough to do a really good installation.


----------



## elerner61

Hi All. A great forum you've got here. Lot's of knowledge and attitude 

I'm preparing to install and setup my MS-8 and have two questions. 

I'll be using the OEM head unit (BMW Z4us) and my music source will primarily be an MP3 player via the Aux. input to the OEM head unit. Because of this, should I plan on using the MP3 files I've seen mentioned on this thread to do the setup as opposed to using the CD?

Also, I'm planning two phases for my install. First phase will be using the OEM speaker setup (midbass in kickpanel, mid in door, tweet in sail panel) usingfo just the MS-8's internal amps. This is for some BMW forum folks to help assess what the improvement in sound quality would be by just adding the MS-8 to the stock system. The second phase will be swapping out the OEM drivers and adding an amp.

So, for Phase I, here are the spec's for the OEM drivers. Could someone recommend x-over points and slopes I should use to setup the MS-8?

Tweets: 4khz to 20khz
Mids: 100hz to 10khz
Mid-bass: 50hz to 500hz

Thanks a bunch in advance!


----------



## Ganderson

elerner61 said:


> Hi All. A great forum you've got here. Lot's of knowledge and attitude
> 
> I'm preparing to install and setup my MS-8 and have a question. I'll be using the OEM head unit (BMW Z4M) and my music source will primarily be an MP3 player via the Aux. input to the OEM head unit. Because of this, should I plan on using the MP3 files I've seen mentioned on this thread to do the setup as opposed to using the CD?
> 
> Thanks!


Hi, and welcome.

Yes, you should rip the audio file on the setup CD to a lossless format and play it on your MP3 player when asked to play the CD during setup.


----------



## radarcontact

I am almost ready to do my next phase of my install! The MS-8 has been sitting in my closet for months and I am dying to get it installed. Just waiting on a new amp to be delivered now.

Please review my plan-

Here's my gear:
(E46 3-series convertible if anyone is familiar with the layout; HK system was installed)
BMW "Business" CD head unit
MS-8
Amp 1 = 40x4 (can be bridged to 100x2, but with 10% THD as a penalty)
Amp 2 = 120x4, plus 400x1
12" sub in trunk
5.25" coax rears located at sides of rear passengers
6.5" / 1" comp set; mids in door bottoms, tweets in door tops; they are 16" apart
(no center, yet anyway)

My game plan:

Power:
6.5" and 5.25" speakers get 120w each
Sub, obviously, gets the the 400w
Tweeters get 40w each (leaving two channels unused...)

Cross:
Subsonic, yes, at 20HZ @ 12 db slope
Sub to 6.5" at 80HZ @ 24 db slope
6.5" to 1" at 3500HZ @ 24 db slope
Rears HP at 100HZ @ 24 db slope


Questions-
1. I really don't want to run the tweeters at 100w each by bridging the amp, but I can't run it on only two of the four channels without hurting it, right? (the future center channel will eventually use the other two channels bridged, giving the tweeters 40 each and the center 100). Should I just use the MS-8 amps to run the tweets?

2. Do my cross/slopes look like a good starting point? I know most are the recommended ones from the manual, but you guys have been messing with this thing for a while now...

3. I will start out with all the amps set to lowest gain, I think. Is that correct? Or set at the NOM or median position? Will I have to tweak these or does the MS-8 adjust voltage to get the volumes right? This is where the manual is lacking direction, IMO.

Thanks to any who will take the time to answer my questions!






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## kaigoss69

elerner61 said:


> Hi All. A great forum you've got here. Lot's of knowledge and attitude
> 
> I'm preparing to install and setup my MS-8 and have two questions.
> 
> I'll be using the OEM head unit (BMW Z4us) and my music source will primarily be an MP3 player via the Aux. input to the OEM head unit. Because of this, should I plan on using the MP3 files I've seen mentioned on this thread to do the setup as opposed to using the CD?
> 
> Also, I'm planning two phases for my install. First phase will be using the OEM speaker setup (midbass in kickpanel, mid in door, tweet in sail panel) usingfo just the MS-8's internal amps. This is for some BMW forum folks to help assess what the improvement in sound quality would be by just adding the MS-8 to the stock system. The second phase will be swapping out the OEM drivers and adding an amp.
> 
> So, for Phase I, here are the spec's for the OEM drivers. Could someone recommend x-over points and slopes I should use to setup the MS-8?
> 
> Tweets: 4khz to 20khz
> Mids: 100hz to 10khz
> Mid-bass: 50hz to 500hz
> 
> Thanks a bunch in advance!


My advice would be to use the factory in-line crossovers and play the mids and tweets off of one channel pair. If you have L7, I know it'll sound damn good. With Hifi, you should (reportedly) also expect very good results.

The underseat woofers will need additional amplification as the MS-8's 18W just won't cut it. The Logic7 woofers are great, the Hifis are (supposedly) pretty good as well. They will take about 75W of RESPONSIBLE power. In the long run, you may want to think about replacing them. Look for Jehnert XE200, Morel MW265-4, and Earthquake SWS-8. Plenty of info on e90post dot com.

Another piece of advice: Try to avoid using the AUX in. Get the 6FL USB interface and invest in an external hard drive....much better and cleaner sound than through the AUX port.


----------



## mr_5a

stefanhinote said:


> In Active, everything sounds very shallow, as if you turned the treble setting on the HU -10 or something.
> 
> Turning the treble setting up on the ms8 overall doesn't help.
> 
> Normally I'd relate treble to the higher spectrum, but here everything has that shallow sound, drums vocals, instruments, etc.
> 
> I switch to defeat, everything is crisp & clear with an impact.
> 
> I saw a few people on here doing firmware upgrades, but I haven't been able to find any links to the downloads, and I just bought my ms8 so it may very well have the last update. Hmm.
> 
> 
> Also tried plugging in the Ipad directly into the ms8, didn't make any difference.


The same problem here. Everything very shallow. Really bad. After pressing DEFEAT, the sound is crisp. I'm going to check polarity of my wiring next week first.


----------



## an2ny888

im using the ms8 internal amps to power my front 2 way seps, i'm hearing a clicking ( or clipping?) sound every time i adjust the audio control levels (treble bass balance, etc). is there anything wrong with my ms8? anybody else notice this with their unit?


----------



## Babs

I think that's normal. I noticed the same thing. Remember the MS-8 I think is doing these adjustments in the digital domain. Once your settings are where you want them it should run like a scalded dog nice and quiet.


----------



## blackknight87

Ive had my MS8 installed for a good week now. Ive decided that my midbass seems a bit lacking in my front MM6501's I have them xover'd at like 100hz which is where i had them when they were hooked up without the amp. They had much more midbass then.

Should i try lowering the xover? they are hooked up with a passive crossover with the tweeters, which is why i set the xover at 100, but i guess thats why the passive is there, to protect the tweeters.

Any tips?


----------



## Babs

Sure.. Give it a shot down to the "conventional" 80hz range. You may notice an increase in that 80-100hz range upfront. Probably what you were remembering prior to the MS-8 was an artificial bump in some range down there that was "pleasant" to you. Maybe from just bad or non-existent EQ etc. I imagine it was certainly not "flat" response at your ears. I've noticed I don't miss the bloat actually but having heard a well-tuned SQ car, and enough home hi-fi, I knew to recognize artificial mid-bass. Though it's fun if it's dynamic with that "bump", it's not accurate.. IMO. 

Try the sub/front mid crossover point at 80hz. Depending on how hard you're pushing those polks you should be able to run them at 80hz fine I imagine at reasonable output. Try different slopes also between sub and fronts.. Start with 24db.

And Yes, the passive is just a 2-way between the mids and tweets, high-passing tweets probably somewhere around the 3k-3500hz range with matching low-pass for the mids. If you were running the components alone the mids would have no high-pass in the low-freq range so they'd essentially run all the way down to 20hz. The MS-8 will allow you that 80hz high-pass (as does about all amps now) so the mids are effectively "band-passed" (80hz to 3k-ish), allowing more output from the mids. Notice the specs for your comps (frequency response: 40-25,000 Hz).


----------



## Kiong34

Hi I am running the following set-up
tweeter - MS8 (20W)
Mid Bass - 2 channel amp (125W)
Sub - mono amp

I notice the tweeters sound softer the mid bass and sub during sweeps.
And i cannot get good sound stage. Seems like the mid bass and sub is too loud compare to the tweeter. but when i try to turn the gain down on the mid bass it sound too soft and won't work at all.

How should i solve this problem?
At what volume should the sweep be? -40? -30?

Please help.


----------



## blackknight87

Babs said:


> Sure.. Give it a shot down to the "conventional" 80hz range. You may notice an increase in that 80-100hz range upfront. Probably what you were remembering prior to the MS-8 was an artificial bump in some range down there that was "pleasant" to you. Maybe from just bad or non-existent EQ etc. I imagine it was certainly not "flat" response at your ears. I've noticed I don't miss the bloat actually but having heard a well-tuned SQ car, and enough home hi-fi, I knew to recognize artificial mid-bass. Though it's fun if it's dynamic with that "bump", it's not accurate.. IMO.
> 
> Try the sub/front mid crossover point at 80hz. Depending on how hard you're pushing those polks you should be able to run them at 80hz fine I imagine at reasonable output. Try different slopes also between sub and fronts.. Start with 24db.
> 
> And Yes, the passive is just a 2-way between the mids and tweets, high-passing tweets probably somewhere around the 3k-3500hz range with matching low-pass for the mids. If you were running the components alone the mids would have no high-pass in the low-freq range so they'd essentially run all the way down to 20hz. The MS-8 will allow you that 80hz high-pass (as does about all amps now) so the mids are effectively "band-passed" (80hz to 3k-ish), allowing more output from the mids. Notice the specs for your comps (frequency response: 40-25,000 Hz).



Thanks Ill try lowering the xover to 80hz. i wish there was an easier way to change the xover settings instead of having to reconfigure everything all over again. but oh well. 

I thought about going active with the MS8 and running the tweets off the ms8 and the mids off my amp, but decided to keep the passives and run everything off the amp cuz its easier! hahah


----------



## SWRocket

an2ny888 said:


> im using the ms8 internal amps to power my front 2 way seps, i'm hearing a clicking ( or clipping?) sound every time i adjust the audio control levels (treble bass balance, etc). is there anything wrong with my ms8? anybody else notice this with their unit?


I have the same thing like a soft crackle sound. I think its normal.


----------



## Babs

blackknight87 said:


> Thanks Ill try lowering the xover to 80hz. i wish there was an easier way to change the xover settings instead of having to reconfigure everything all over again. but oh well.
> 
> I thought about going active with the MS8 and running the tweets off the ms8 and the mids off my amp, but decided to keep the passives and run everything off the amp cuz its easier! hahah


I made the choice to run my 2-way rears (if ya gotta run rears) off the MS-8 with a passive crossover which has plenty power for rear-fill, so I could run fronts active. What it does for the frontstage would make you never want to run passive 2-way comps upfront ever again. When you think about it, the biggest issues between tweets and mids upfront are distance and placement. The MS-8 takes care of both best it can with accurate time-alignment between tweets and mids, then the EQ. 

I highly recommend you try four amp'd channels like that even for a test, even if just with your front-stage only. Test crossover points around 80 highpass between sub/mids, and anywhere from 2.5k-3.5k @ 24db slope for your tweets, I'd start at 3k-3.5k. Get a feel how low your tweets can cross and stay clean. If your speaker wiring is such that you can try it easily, I think you'll find those Polks come alive when all four of those drivers are hitting your ears at the same time, individually tuned. The imaging will dial in, the stage will be more transparent and you'll begin to hear just one source presented because tweet and mid are "blended" far better. 

Active is worth the work.. With the MS-8, the work is just reduced to speaker wiring and install. Those magic headphones do the rest. 

For changing around, just write down the speaker channels just like the manual describes in the table. Just make sure you don't feed mid or lower frequencies accidentally to your tweets.


----------



## elerner61

kaigoss69 said:


> My advice would be to use the factory in-line crossovers and play the mids and tweets off of one channel pair. If you have L7, I know it'll sound damn good. With Hifi, you should (reportedly) also expect very good results.
> 
> The underseat woofers will need additional amplification as the MS-8's 18W just won't cut it. The Logic7 woofers are great, the Hifis are (supposedly) pretty good as well. They will take about 75W of RESPONSIBLE power. In the long run, you may want to think about replacing them. Look for Jehnert XE200, Morel MW265-4, and Earthquake SWS-8. Plenty of info on e90post dot com.
> 
> Another piece of advice: Try to avoid using the AUX in. Get the 6FL USB interface and invest in an external hard drive....much better and cleaner sound than through the AUX port.


Thanks for the reply. My Z4M (small convertible) has the factory "top hifi/Carver" system which has a proprietary digital connection between the HU and the factory amp. There are no factory crossovers, it all happens in the factory amp. There are no drivers under the seats as typical in many BMW's, just the 3-way setups up front, plus a poor excuse for subs and mids right behind the seats. My plan for the short lived "phase one" testing is to just run the fronts off the MS-8. 

I've done a little reading on 3-way cross overs and it seems that a generic place to start is 80hz, 3khz with 6db/octave for the slopes. 80hz sounds somewhat low though.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

elerner61 said:


> Thanks for the reply. My Z4M (small convertible) has the factory "top hifi/Carver" system which has a proprietary digital connection between the HU and the factory amp. There are no factory crossovers, it all happens in the factory amp. There are no drivers under the seats as typical in many BMW's, just the 3-way setups up front, plus a poor excuse for subs and mids right behind the seats. My plan for the short lived "phase one" testing is to just run the fronts off the MS-8.
> 
> I've done a little reading on 3-way cross overs and it seems that a generic place to start is 80hz, 3khz with 6db/octave for the slopes. 80hz sounds somewhat low though.
> 
> Any advice is greatly appreciated.


did you read crossover advice for home audio stuff or for cars? I don't hear much about 6db/octave slope in a car.


----------



## elerner61

Wheres The Butta said:


> did you read crossover advice for home audio stuff or for cars? I don't hear much about 6db/octave slope in a car.


It may not have been (and sounds like it wasn't) specific to audio in cars. I've since found some other reference articles/forum threads. I'll also do some more searching here on diyma for crossover setting/adjusting


----------



## blackknight87

thanks! I might have to try this soon. I have some some more speaker wire laying around that I could run to my tweets. now you got me thinking.....



Babs said:


> I made the choice to run my 2-way rears (if ya gotta run rears) off the MS-8 with a passive crossover which has plenty power for rear-fill, so I could run fronts active. What it does for the frontstage would make you never want to run passive 2-way comps upfront ever again. When you think about it, the biggest issues between tweets and mids upfront are distance and placement. The MS-8 takes care of both best it can with accurate time-alignment between tweets and mids, then the EQ.
> 
> I highly recommend you try four amp'd channels like that even for a test, even if just with your front-stage only. Test crossover points around 80 highpass between sub/mids, and anywhere from 2.5k-3.5k @ 24db slope for your tweets, I'd start at 3k-3.5k. Get a feel how low your tweets can cross and stay clean. If your speaker wiring is such that you can try it easily, I think you'll find those Polks come alive when all four of those drivers are hitting your ears at the same time, individually tuned. The imaging will dial in, the stage will be more transparent and you'll begin to hear just one source presented because tweet and mid are "blended" far better.
> 
> Active is worth the work.. With the MS-8, the work is just reduced to speaker wiring and install. Those magic headphones do the rest.
> 
> For changing around, just write down the speaker channels just like the manual describes in the table. Just make sure you don't feed mid or lower frequencies accidentally to your tweets.


----------



## Frank Drebin

edit:  wiring problem


----------



## audionublet

I coulda sworn there was an MS8 thread somewhere that someone created with some nifty tips and tricks .... not the thread titled MS8 Tips and Tricks, but it was actually another that I'm thinking of. Anyone know which thread I'm thinking about? Searching for it and can't find it, driving me crazy!


----------



## Smash

So I bit the bullet and decided to grab this thing. Figured it would be a slam dunk way to improve my sound as I was wanting to upgrade with an EQ. But no luck. The sound is horrible. The sub is just about non existent even cranked all the way up in the Graphic EQ. Plus I can actually hear the delay between the right and left speakers. I'm not quite up on all the terms but am a hobby musician and have a pretty good ear. The system was decent before.

Don't laugh at the equipment I know it's older stuff and not high end by far, but here's what I have.

Toyota Tundra 2007 OEM Radio (Non JBL)
MTX RT-X02A Crossover (I replaced this with the MS-8 in the signal path)
JBL GTQ200 Amp bridged for the fronts (100 watts per channel)
2 x JBL GTS150 Amps for the subs (150 watts per sub)
2 x JL 10" 10W1v2 in a sealed box
MB quart separates in the front doors
Nothing in the rear
Line level converter on the oem deck

I'm not sure if maybe the old levels on the MTX just had a lot higher gain and it pushed the amps harder or if the MS-8 just doesn't like my head unit. Gonna try and plug in an iPod to see if that improves anything. Any thoughts anyone?


----------



## Salami

Smash said:


> The sub is just about non existent even cranked all the way up in the Graphic EQ.


Why are you trying to adjust the sub level with the EQ? Use the sub level control instead. 



Smash said:


> Line level converter on the oem deck........ Any thoughts anyone?


Get rid of the line level converter and connect the MS-8 directly to the speaker out puts using the high level inputs. 


Level match all channels before running the auto tune.


----------



## 14642

And read the manual and pay careful attention where it says to do calibration with the MS-8's volume control turned DOWN! set the amp gains to the 2V setting and try calibration with MS-8's volume control at -35. Turn all the crossovers off in the amplifiers.

I'll bet it will sound fine then.


----------



## Frank Drebin

Smash said:


> So I bit the bullet and decided to grab this thing. Figured it would be a slam dunk way to improve my sound as I was wanting to upgrade with an EQ. But no luck. The sound is horrible. The sub is just about non existent even cranked all the way up in the Graphic EQ. Plus I can actually hear the delay between the right and left speakers. I'm not quite up on all the terms but am a hobby musician and have a pretty good ear. The system was decent before.
> 
> Don't laugh at the equipment I know it's older stuff and not high end by far, but here's what I have.
> 
> Toyota Tundra 2007 OEM Radio (Non JBL)
> MTX RT-X02A Crossover (I replaced this with the MS-8 in the signal path)
> JBL GTQ200 Amp bridged for the fronts (100 watts per channel)
> 2 x JBL GTS150 Amps for the subs (150 watts per sub)
> 2 x JL 10" 10W1v2 in a sealed box
> MB quart separates in the front doors
> Nothing in the rear
> Line level converter on the oem deck
> 
> I'm not sure if maybe the old levels on the MTX just had a lot higher gain and it pushed the amps harder or if the MS-8 just doesn't like my head unit. Gonna try and plug in an iPod to see if that improves anything. Any thoughts anyone?


You have to run the startup CD every time you change crossovers etc. It seems the ms8 forgets the inputs and I got a really strong drivers side signal when I skipped the input test. I got the front components sounding great when i used the CD, and I could only hear the drivers side tweet when i didnt.

Andy, thanks for the tip, i was running the time alignment test at -15 to -20, and i had to trick the ms8 by turning the sub amp gain down.


----------



## 14642

Frank Drebin said:


> You have to run the startup CD every time you change crossovers etc. It seems the ms8 forgets the inputs and I got a really strong drivers side signal when I skipped the input test. I got the front components sounding great when i used the CD, and I could only hear the drivers side tweet when i didnt.
> 
> Yes, if you change crossovers, you have to run Input/Output Setup. MS-8 builds the system and throws away the information as you complete the steps in order to make everything fit in the memory. It saves a series of correction filters per channel and the filters are BIG.
> 
> I suggest choosing crossovers to keep the speakers happy and working within the ranges where their dispersion is wide (when possible), and then tuning the car with the acoustic calibration and the 31-band EQ. Unless you have a really unconventional system, adjusting the crossovers over and over to tune the car (the way we all used to do when all the tools are available all the time) really isn't the right way to do it. Crossovers are not equalizers!


----------



## Babs

I thought you could bypass that if you knew your head unit input level but I guess not. Been a couple week since I messed with crossover points. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Frank Drebin

The one thing that confuses me about such a nice piece of technology, is that I'm able to ground the unit through the mounting screws. I thought it was another bad unit, but it works fine. My screws are going through my amp rack and hit the back (metal)wall...If I slam the back door I get a loud pop, which I'm almost positive is because of the screws messing with the ground location.

I also get the turn off pop. I'll back off the screws and see if it fixes the problem. I'm thinking it will, but I thought that you shouldn't be able to ground a piece of electronic equipment off it's metal body? Shouldn't the internal board be insulated from the body?


----------



## Kiong34

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Frank Drebin said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have to run the startup CD every time you change crossovers etc. It seems the ms8 forgets the inputs and I got a really strong drivers side signal when I skipped the input test. I got the front components sounding great when i used the CD, and I could only hear the drivers side tweet when i didnt.
> 
> Yes, if you change crossovers, you have to run Input/Output Setup. MS-8 builds the system and throws away the information as you complete the steps in order to make everything fit in the memory. It saves a series of correction filters per channel and the filters are BIG.
> 
> I suggest choosing crossovers to keep the speakers happy and working within the ranges where their dispersion is wide (when possible), and then tuning the car with the acoustic calibration and the 31-band EQ. Unless you have a really unconventional system, adjusting the crossovers over and over to tune the car (the way we all used to do when all the tools are available all the time) really isn't the right way to do it. Crossovers are not equalizers!
> 
> 
> 
> Using RCA from aftermarket HU to MS-8 input don't need to use the CD right?
> Please confirm.
> 
> Thank you
Click to expand...


----------



## forrest

Crap, I came here to do some research on getting 1 of these. How long does it take to read all 252 pages


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## Babs

Just do a good install, feed the ms-8 appropriately, follow the manual, and it's a breeze. I just did my first full system install with it and it sounds to me glorious. And I'm by no means whatsoever a pro. If you can install amps, you can add the MS-8 with great results.. IMO

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## 14642

Frank Drebin said:


> The one thing that confuses me about such a nice piece of technology, is that I'm able to ground the unit through the mounting screws. I thought it was another bad unit, but it works fine. My screws are going through my amp rack and hit the back (metal)wall...If I slam the back door I get a loud pop, which I'm almost positive is because of the screws messing with the ground location.
> 
> I also get the turn off pop. I'll back off the screws and see if it fixes the problem. I'm thinking it will, but I thought that you shouldn't be able to ground a piece of electronic equipment off it's metal body? Shouldn't the internal board be insulated from the body?


Well, it would be nice if the case of the unit didn't have to be connected to chassis ground, but it does--and does with many pieces of equipment, especially those that require a shield. There was once a time that audio ground and power supply ground were the same all the way through the units--about 20 years ago, and that always created noise. Now, the case is chassis (power supply) ground and the audio INPUTS are differential. the output RCA must, unfortunately, be referenced to the same ground for RCA connections, but not for speaker level connections. Ideally, the unit would be grounded in only one place, bit since the case and power supply negative are the same, grounding the case too shouldn't cause a ground loop. Try shorter screws. 

I doubt the pop when you slam the back door has much to do with the ground. How is the system connected? Is this a factory head unit?


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## Frank Drebin

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well, it would be nice if the case of the unit didn't have to be connected to chassis ground, but it does--and does with many pieces of equipment, especially those that require a shield. There was once a time that audio ground and power supply ground were the same all the way through the units--about 20 years ago, and that always created noise. Now, the case is chassis (power supply) ground and the audio INPUTS are differential. the output RCA must, unfortunately, be referenced to the same ground for RCA connections, but not for speaker level connections. Ideally, the unit would be grounded in only one place, bit since the case and power supply negative are the same, grounding the case too shouldn't cause a ground loop. Try shorter screws.
> 
> I doubt the pop when you slam the back door has much to do with the ground. How is the system connected? Is this a factory head unit?


It is the factory HU. And truthfully, there are flaws in the install. I'm sure once all the high level inputs are soldered instead of spade connections, and I'm only grounded at the ground location the "door slam pops" should go away.

The turn off pop will be eliminated by switching the Remote turn off lead from the head unit to the ACC power. I'm not sure of the science of it, but I physically removed the ACC wire from the MS8 while the system was running and no pop. The truck has a 2 or 5 second delay that the stereo stays on after the key is off so I should be good there.

Thanks for your input again Andy, I'm sure if the installations were all flawless, the MS8's would all be working as advertised. This thread is almost all install troubleshooting.

Cheers


----------



## Smash

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> And read the manual and pay careful attention where it says to do calibration with the MS-8's volume control turned DOWN! set the amp gains to the 2V setting and try calibration with MS-8's volume control at -35. Turn all the crossovers off in the amplifiers.
> 
> I'll bet it will sound fine then.


Yes, I read the manual thoroughly and followed the steps exactly. I got a little closer by replacing the head unit with my iPod. Downloaded the sample Wav from JBL and played it through the iPod for the calibration. I can bypass the processing and it sounds good, turn on the 7 and it sounds OK. But truning on the processing no matter what sounds like your listening to it in a tin can.


----------



## MikeF

Hopefully this is the only post with this issue, but honestly going thru the 140+ pages that have been posted since I received my MS-8 is a bit much. Does/has anybody had any problems with the output(s) from their MS-8 where the sound can only be described as 'laboring'? Since nearly the beginning, I've had problems with the outputs I'm using for the rear channels - which happen to be Channels 5 and 6 on the MS-8. As I've recently started experiencing a hi-pitched tone at turn-on of the car (which goes away in about 15-30 seconds), and I was in the vicinity of my installer this past Friday, I took the car up to try to get some opinions. Naturally, the tone wasn't present (it was the last time I started the car before arriving there), but during a conversation about my thoughts on the overall install, I mentioned the distorted rear channel output. He stuck his head in the rear shelf, and then went to get a small cigarette sized Radio Shack speaker with some RCA leads on the one end, and listened to the indivudal outputs from the MS-8 itself. After going thru all the outputs, it was obvious it was the MS-8 and not the amps or HU. He even swapped the inputs for the front mids into the Channel 5/6 outputs, and it was very evident this is the source of the problem. 

Just curious if this is a known issue or if I might have a problem unit. It was one of the ones Amazon supplied last fall, and they told me on Saturedy they would have replaced it if they had any in stock. Somehow, their offer of a 15% refund doesn't come across all that well. I've got a call into 2nd level tech support, and hope they call me tomorrow to discuss what my options might be, but again wondering if anybody else has had this issue. To be honest, I've been soooo pleased with the front staging that I really just ignored this issue (even sent Andy a pm back in Nov or '10, so at least it's somewhat documented), but now that it might be contributing to other issues thought it best to check it out.


----------



## Ganderson

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> And read the manual and pay careful attention where it says to do calibration with the MS-8's volume control turned DOWN! set the amp gains to the 2V setting and try calibration with MS-8's volume control at -35. Turn all the crossovers off in the amplifiers.
> 
> I'll bet it will sound fine then.


When I follow this advice my front sweeps are at ~55db from the tweets and a couple db lower from my mids. This is using a JL HD900/5 (100wpc) with seas drivers.

-30 = ~58db
-25 = ~62db

So this is the proper volume range for the sweeps?


----------



## FartinInTheTub

I'm curious about something. I'm running the 900/5... I'm running a single Ultimo 12. In the manual it shows a single side of the rca coming out of channel 8 only then running a single side of a pair of rcas into the amp. In my setup I have the stereo pair running into the 900/5 and the other end plugged into channels 7&8 on the ms8... Is this going to cause a problem? and what should I do to remedy this? plug a single rca into the right channel of my sub outputs on my 900/5, then plug the other single rca end into channel 8? What problems could my original installation cause if any?


----------



## Ganderson

FartinInTheTub said:


> I'm curious about something. I'm running the 900/5... I'm running a single Ultimo 12. In the manual it shows a single side of the rca coming out of channel 8 only then running a single side of a pair of rcas into the amp. In my setup I have the stereo pair running into the 900/5 and the other end plugged into channels 7&8 on the ms8... Is this going to cause a problem? and what should I do to remedy this? plug a single rca into the right channel of my sub outputs on my 900/5, then plug the other single rca end into channel 8? What problems could my original installation cause if any?


What do you have assigned to outputs 7 & 8 on the MS-8?

The proper way to set it up would be to assign the sub to a single MS-8 output (ch.8), split the ch.8 output with an RCA Y-adapter into the 2 sub inputs on the HD900.


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## mdavis007

Kiong34 said:


> Using RCA from aftermarket HU to MS-8 input don't need to use the CD right?
> Please confirm.
> 
> Thank you


• If you are using an aftermarket head unit and have connected the head unit’s front left output and right line outputs to the MS-8’s line inputs 1 and 2, *you may select Skip Input Setup (the CD)* and go directly to Output Setup, on page 26.


----------



## Lorin

I am in the process of wiring my ms-8 up and am wanting to make sure I am going about it the right way? I ran front left into input 1 and front right into input 2. As to assigning output channels my thoughts are as follows:
channel 1: Left 6.5 (80-315hz), channel 2: right 6.5. channel 3: left 3 inch (315 up), channel 4 right 3 inch. channel 5 and 6 : rear speakers powered by ms-8 for logic7. channel 7: center (315 and up). channel 8: sub (20-80hz). Any issues with the above setup? I may add tweeters if the "widebanders" dont play high enough, but am wondering if I do if it is better to run them with the 3.inch widebanders using a passive crossover (already have) to split the highs at 3500? I am wondering if it is better to use the "extra" channels for center and rear instead of dedicating to active tweeters? Any thougts or suggestions welcome.


----------



## kameraguy

*processor noise?*

Hi Guys,

I am a new MS-8 owner and had it installed by my shop over the weekend. I am glad this thread is so informative as getting things to sound right has been a bit tricky. Without another MS-8 system to compare, I really don't know what is considered "correct". 

I'm confident i'll get there with the help of this thread, bikinipunk's excellent thread, and the nice tips and tricks thread...

But one thing that I haven't been able to find reference: processor noise. 

For my install, when calibrating the system from scratch, the system is silent. However, once I complete the setup cd input signal acquisition, i immediately hear a muted, but noticeable, white-noise-ish sound. It's very low in volume. If the car is running, I can't notice it. But with the engine off, it is noticeable. After I am done with the initial driver position calibration, this noise is still the same. It also doesn't change after i complete all the seating positions.

Playing music after sounds fine. But it's just that the quiet passages are detracted from this low noise present. I notice that regardless of how loud or quiet I play music, this "noise" remains the same in terms of volume (IE: raising the volume of music doesn't seem to affect the noise characteristics or it's volume).

I am pretty sure it's the processor because if I select defeat, the noise goes away and the system is silent again.

I'm at a loss on how to eliminate this noise...

Wondering if anyone has any ideas, or has experienced similar? Sorry if this HAS been discussed already, I must have missed it since this thread is huge. If someone can point me in the right direction, that would be much appreciated!

My system:
Car: 2008 Subaru Forester
AMP: JL XD 700/5 powering all speakers + sub

HU: Kenwood DNX 6160 Nav (EQ set to flat) -> connected to MS-8 via RCA

Sub: Kicker CVT10 (temporary until enough funds for JL) (set to 1,20hz subsonic,12db slope,front xover 80hz, 24db slope)

Front: Focal 165 VB (set to 1-way)

Center: none

Side: stock rear speakers (set to 1-way,80hz,24db slope)

Rear: none

CH1-FL/CH2-FR/CH3-SL/CH4-SR/CH5-none/CH6-none/CH7-Sub1/CH8-none

Calibrated with MS-8 volume set to -35db


----------



## elerner61

Here's a question who's likes I haven't seen (even searched this thread for it).

I've almost got my MS-8 up and running in my convertible (BMW Z4M). I would think calibrations for "top up" and "top down" would be different. How could I store them? I was thinking of using the settings for Driver, and Passenger to save the calibrations for Driver Top Up and Driver Top Down, respectively. Any reason this would not work?


----------



## RaveShow

I currently have an MS-8 sitting in the closet waiting for me to purchase a proper amp to complete my system. As stated in previous post the directions are rather vague. From my understanding the "driver" and "passenger" calibration will sum the two readings and create the best sound possible for the entire space. You may end up with a "top half down" result... if that makes any sense. Again I haven't installed mine yet so I haven't had a chance to really mess with all the functions but I don't think you can store multiple options to switch between.


Brand new so take it easy guys if I'm completely off base here


----------



## FartinInTheTub

elerner61 said:


> Here's a question who's likes I haven't seen (even searched this thread for it).
> 
> I've almost got my MS-8 up and running in my convertible (BMW Z4M). I would think calibrations for "top up" and "top down" would be different. How could I store them? I was thinking of using the settings for Driver, and Passenger to save the calibrations for Driver Top Up and Driver Top Down, respectively. Any reason this would not work?


Yep... Just need to run the first calibration with your top down then save it... Then with the top up then save that one. Then you can toggle between the two whenever you want.


----------



## Kiong34

mdavis007 said:


> • If you are using an aftermarket head unit and have connected the head unit’s front left output and right line outputs to the MS-8’s line inputs 1 and 2, *you may select Skip Input Setup (the CD)* and go directly to Output Setup, on page 26.


Tks for the reply.

I have tried both. it seems that using the dics during set-up (RCA connection) it does tell you if your left right channel is balance.
other than that the rest is the same.


----------



## radarcontact

FartinInTheTub said:


> Yep... Just need to run the first calibration with your top down then save it... Then with the top up then save that one. Then you can toggle between the two whenever you want.


Really?? I thought you could only calibrate once, then save different EQ settings, not calibrations. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## radarcontact

Salami said:


> Level match all channels before running the auto tune.


How do you do this?? This has my biggest concern; I'm installing this weekend. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kiong34

mdavis007 said:


> • If you are using an aftermarket head unit and have connected the head unit’s front left output and right line outputs to the MS-8’s line inputs 1 and 2, *you may select Skip Input Setup (the CD)* and go directly to Output Setup, on page 26.


Tks for the reply.

I have tried both. it seems that using the dics during set-up (RCA connection) it does tell you if your left right channel is balance.
other than that the rest is the same.


----------



## mdavis007

radarcontact said:


> Really?? I thought you could only calibrate once, then save different EQ settings, not calibrations.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Page 39 of the manual (the pdf version anyway)

FAVORITES MENU
The MS-8 provides five Favorites positions that let you store the system’s currently active audio settings. The system stores all audio and input selection settings in a Favorites setting (except the Aux volume setting). This feature lets you tailor the sound for a certain type of music or a certain driver, and save and recall the settings at any time.


----------



## Babs

However saving favorites I think *only* applies to manual audio settings (sys levels, fade, manually adjusted EQ, seat position, L7 on/off, etc), but *not* the actual auto-calibration, correct? Unless I'm wrong, which I hope I am.


----------



## mdavis007

I'm pretty sure it does save your calibration settings. The only thing I thought it didn't save was EQ settings, they seem to stay the same no matter what.


----------



## Babs

I'm betting nope just anything that can be changed manually but not the actual calibration is saved as part of a favorite to swap back/forth. Betting one moon-pie and one root beer.


----------



## elerner61

FartinInTheTub said:


> Yep... Just need to run the first calibration with your top down then save it... Then with the top up then save that one. Then you can toggle between the two whenever you want.


Thanks for confirming. Since I am only running fronts, will I be able to use the "rear" calibration setting at all (or will it not allow it because it will see that I don't have any rears). For instance, I can see doing the following:

Driver Setting: Driver seat top down
Passenger Setting: Passenger seat top down
Front Setting: Would be compromised Driver and Passenger top down
Rear Drivers side (calibration): Driver top up
Rear Passengers side (calibration): Passenger top up
Rear Setting: Compromised Driver and Passenger Top up

This would leave me with no setting for Driver's seat only, top up.

Just thinking out loud on this...


----------



## mdavis007

Babs said:


> I'm betting nope just anything that can be changed manually but not the actual calibration is saved as part of a favorite to swap back/forth. Betting one moon-pie and one root beer.


Hmmm possible. I took "This feature lets you tailor the sound for a certain type of music or a certain driver" to mean that the "certain driver" was based on seating position. For example my wife is about 2 ft shorter than me so without the auto calibrate the favorite would be useless as it would be set for my seating position and not hers.


----------



## kaigoss69

Lorin said:


> I am in the process of wiring my ms-8 up and am wanting to make sure I am going about it the right way? I ran front left into input 1 and front right into input 2. As to assigning output channels my thoughts are as follows:
> channel 1: Left 6.5 (80-315hz), channel 2: right 6.5. channel 3: left 3 inch (315 up), channel 4 right 3 inch. channel 5 and 6 : rear speakers powered by ms-8 for logic7. channel 7: center (315 and up). channel 8: sub (20-80hz). Any issues with the above setup? I may add tweeters if the "widebanders" dont play high enough, but am wondering if I do if it is better to run them with the 3.inch widebanders using a passive crossover (already have) to split the highs at 3500? I am wondering if it is better to use the "extra" channels for center and rear instead of dedicating to active tweeters? Any thougts or suggestions welcome.


I am running widebanders (L3SE) right now, off-axis in OEM door locations and center dash, and I have to say that I am not missing any tweeters at all. But if I had to add tweeters, I would use passives for sure since I don't have any spare channels, and the difference between passive and active would probably not be noticeable anyways.

I am trying to meet up with Scott Buwalda to let him listen to my car and see if he would add any tweeters or leave it the way it is.


----------



## thehatedguy

You are missing a lot.


----------



## thehatedguy

Where in SC are you? I'm outside of Charlotte if you wanted to compare MS-8 systems.


----------



## kaigoss69

thehatedguy said:


> You are missing a lot.












I dunno. To my ears it sounds pretty damn good. Of course the RTAs never tell the whole story but for reference, my hearing drops at about the same place as the RTA...16,000Hz.


----------



## thehatedguy

I could EQ my horns flat to 20k too, but EQ never changed the dispersion pattern of them...

Like I said, if you want to hear a MS-8 system with tweeters and a 3 way center, I am 30 miles west of Charlotte down I-85 in Kings Mountain. The car isn't cosmetically done, but is sounding rather good.


----------



## taibanl

*Re: processor noise?*



kameraguy said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I am a new MS-8 owner and had it installed by my shop over the weekend. I am glad this thread is so informative as getting things to sound right has been a bit tricky. Without another MS-8 system to compare, I really don't know what is considered "correct".
> 
> I'm confident i'll get there with the help of this thread, bikinipunk's excellent thread, and the nice tips and tricks thread...
> 
> But one thing that I haven't been able to find reference: processor noise.
> 
> For my install, when calibrating the system from scratch, the system is silent. However, once I complete the setup cd input signal acquisition, i immediately hear a muted, but noticeable, white-noise-ish sound. It's very low in volume. If the car is running, I can't notice it. But with the engine off, it is noticeable. After I am done with the initial driver position calibration, this noise is still the same. It also doesn't change after i complete all the seating positions.
> 
> Playing music after sounds fine. But it's just that the quiet passages are detracted from this low noise present. I notice that regardless of how loud or quiet I play music, this "noise" remains the same in terms of volume (IE: raising the volume of music doesn't seem to affect the noise characteristics or it's volume).
> 
> I am pretty sure it's the processor because if I select defeat, the noise goes away and the system is silent again.
> 
> I'm at a loss on how to eliminate this noise...
> 
> Wondering if anyone has any ideas, or has experienced similar? Sorry if this HAS been discussed already, I must have missed it since this thread is huge. If someone can point me in the right direction, that would be much appreciated!
> 
> My system:
> Car: 2008 Subaru Forester
> AMP: JL XD 700/5 powering all speakers + sub
> 
> HU: Kenwood DNX 6160 Nav (EQ set to flat) -> connected to MS-8 via RCA
> 
> Sub: Kicker CVT10 (temporary until enough funds for JL) (set to 1,20hz subsonic,12db slope,front xover 80hz, 24db slope)
> 
> Front: Focal 165 VB (set to 1-way)
> 
> Center: none
> 
> Side: stock rear speakers (set to 1-way,80hz,24db slope)
> 
> Rear: none
> 
> CH1-FL/CH2-FR/CH3-SL/CH4-SR/CH5-none/CH6-none/CH7-Sub1/CH8-none
> 
> Calibrated with MS-8 volume set to -35db


YES! I am having this problem now. I had it before and I got it to go away (but can't remember how) now I am back where I started.


----------



## thehatedguy

Try switching the selected listening position?


----------



## musicfan

thehatedguy said:


> I could EQ my horns flat to 20k too, but EQ never changed the dispersion pattern of them...


Can you elaborate? I'm running L3SE's off axis with no tweeters as well. (They are mounted in the factory dashboard locations in my 2010 Prius, at least until I can teach myself fiberglass fabrication.) My assumption was that the MS-8 would correct any roll off of the highs.


----------



## thehatedguy

IT will correct the levels but can't change the dispersion pattern of the speaker. You can't electronically change the beaming characteristics of a speaker


----------



## musicfan

musicfan said:


> Can you elaborate? I'm running L3SE's off axis with no tweeters as well. (They are mounted in the factory dashboard locations in my 2010 Prius, at least until I can teach myself fiberglass fabrication.) My assumption was that the MS-8 would correct any roll off of the highs.


Crap, I just thought of something.

I've had the MS-8 installed for about 3 weeks now, and I've had the whole gamut of problems; remote batteries that died after a few days, runaway feedback (AKA "jet engine noise" from leaving the mic plugged in, and yes, the dreaded missing midbass. I took all of the troubleshooting measures I could glean from this thread, including confirming correct speaker polarity, switching sub polarity, massively raising the MS-8 crossover freqencies, turning off amp crossovers (or at least setting them several octaves below the MS-8 cutoffs), level matching speaker outputs before measurement, and of course, running the sweeps at very low volumes. I got it sounding decent, but I'm using a lot of EQ to do so. I noticed that I got the
best tunes when I used the narrowest frequency range for the midbass speakers (~90-220hz), and I recalled Andy W saying that big peaks or dips in response in the lower frequencies could cause problems with level matching. Since my midbass speakers are a bit of a wildcard (6x9 woofers recycled from a set of Infinity Kappa 3-ways, t/s parameters unknown), I suspected that they were the problem and have been working on replacing them with something known to work well in a door mount. 

It just occurred to me that maybe running the L3SE's without tweeters is forcing the MS-8 to boost the highs so much that it is running out of boost/cut to properly adjust the other frequencies. Is this possible, or should I go back to working on the midbass drivers in the doors?

My setup:

2010 Prius 
Alpine ina-w910 HU 
MS-8 

Ch1-6 > XD600/6
1/2 > HAT L3SE (dashboard)
3/4 > 6x9 Infinity woofer (lower front doors)
5/6 > 2" OEM JBL midtweeters (upper rear doors)

Ch7-8 > Boston Acoustics gta-400m
> JL 8" flatwedge compact sub

[My apologies if this has been discussed already. I did RTFM and read literally thousands of the posts in this thread, but I still might have missed it.]


----------



## subwoofery

musicfan said:


> Crap, I just thought of something.
> 
> I've had the MS-8 installed for about 3 weeks now, and I've had the whole gamut of problems; remote batteries that died after a few days, runaway feedback (AKA "jet engine noise" from leaving the mic plugged in, and yes, the dreaded missing midbass. I took all of the troubleshooting measures I could glean from this thread, including confirming correct speaker polarity, switching sub polarity, massively raising the MS-8 crossover freqencies, turning off amp crossovers (or at least setting them several octaves below the MS-8 cutoffs), level matching speaker outputs before measurement, and of course, running the sweeps at very low volumes. I got it sounding decent, but I'm using a lot of EQ to do so. I noticed that I got the
> best tunes when I used the narrowest frequency range for the midbass speakers (~90-220hz), and I recalled Andy W saying that big peaks or dips in response in the lower frequencies could cause problems with level matching. Since my midbass speakers are a bit of a wildcard (6x9 woofers recycled from a set of Infinity Kappa 3-ways, t/s parameters unknown), I suspected that they were the problem and have been working on replacing them with something known to work well in a door mount.
> 
> It just occurred to me that maybe running the L3SE's without tweeters is forcing the MS-8 to boost the highs so much that it is running out of boost/cut to properly adjust the other frequencies. Is this possible, or should I go back to working on the midbass drivers in the doors?
> 
> My setup:
> 
> 2010 Prius
> Alpine ina-w910 HU
> MS-8
> 
> Ch1-6 > XD600/6
> 1/2 > HAT L3SE (dashboard)
> 3/4 > 6x9 Infinity woofer (lower front doors)
> 5/6 > 2" OEM JBL midtweeters (upper rear doors)
> 
> Ch7-8 > Boston Acoustics gta-400m
> > JL 8" flatwedge compact sub
> 
> [My apologies if this has been discussed already. I did RTFM and read literally thousands of the posts in this thread, but I still might have missed it.]


Recommend you try to play your midbass from 90Hz to 800Hz... Let the MS-8 do the work 

Kelvin


----------



## kameraguy

*Re: processor noise?*



taibanl said:


> YES! I am having this problem now. I had it before and I got it to go away (but can't remember how) now I am back where I started.



Hi, in case you recall how to get rid of it, please let me know...I also reached out to JBL support to see what they say. Will share if I find out how to correct this.


----------



## motovet

Phew....searched some pages for my simple install question, but found nothing. Anyway I'm finally getting around to installing my MS8 that I've had for a while, but not sure about one thing. I run my fronts and subs off amps, and the rears off the HU. Do I need to run the rears off the MS8's internal amp, or can I leave the rears wired as is and run the rest of the set up with RCA's as instructed?


----------



## subwoofery

motovet said:


> Phew....searched some pages for my simple install question, but found nothing. Anyway I'm finally getting around to installing my MS8 that I've had for a while, but not sure about one thing. I run my fronts and subs off amps, and the rears off the HU. Do I need to run the rears off the MS8's internal amp, or can I leave the rears wired as is and run the rest of the set up with RCA's as instructed?


Rears off the MS-8. The manual explains it. 

Kelvin


----------



## CraigE

subwoofery said:


> Rears off the MS-8. *The manual explains it*.
> 
> Kelvin


Surely you're not suggesting to read the manual. :cwm15::book2::book:


----------



## 14642

Smash said:


> Yes, I read the manual thoroughly and followed the steps exactly. I got a little closer by replacing the head unit with my iPod. Downloaded the sample Wav from JBL and played it through the iPod for the calibration. I can bypass the processing and it sounds good, turn on the 7 and it sounds OK. But truning on the processing no matter what sounds like your listening to it in a tin can.


Try recalibrating with the subwoofer disconnected. I'll bet that it's still too loud. If that works, turn the gain of the subwoofer amplifier down and recalibrate.


----------



## 14642

elerner61 said:


> Here's a question who's likes I haven't seen (even searched this thread for it).
> 
> I've almost got my MS-8 up and running in my convertible (BMW Z4M). I would think calibrations for "top up" and "top down" would be different. How could I store them? I was thinking of using the settings for Driver, and Passenger to save the calibrations for Driver Top Up and Driver Top Down, respectively. Any reason this would not work?


MS-8 only stores one set of auto EQ correction filters. Do calibration with the top up. Adjust the 31 band to your liking. Save that as a preset.Then, put the top down, readjust the 31-band to your liking and save that as another preset.


----------



## 14642

FartinInTheTub said:


> Yep... Just need to run the first calibration with your top down then save it... Then with the top up then save that one. Then you can toggle between the two whenever you want.


No, this is not correct. See post above.


----------



## elerner61

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8 only stores one set of auto EQ correction filters. Do calibration with the top up. Adjust the 31 band to your liking. Save that as a preset.Then, put the top down, readjust the 31-band to your liking and save that as another preset.


Andy, then what does MS-8 do when you perform acoustic calibrations at the different seat positions and those are saved? I would think that different seat positions (as well as Top Up, Top Down) would require different time corrections, not just equalizations.

Thx.


----------



## Lorin

I am interested in hearing more on the usage of "widebanders" without tweeters, since that is where I am leaning at present. I have some passive crossovers from a component set that I could use between my trinity and tweeter. Is it worthwhile to do so? I have a few options to select from: 1. Run widebanders (no tweets) while using the back channels off ms-8 power for the logic7 in rear doors. 2. use the two channels for active tweet (instead of rear channels). 3. use passives with tweets and keep rear channels. Andy, any thoughts as to best practices in my scenario?


----------



## SSSnake

> Like I said, if you want to hear a MS-8 system with tweeters and a 3 way center, I am 30 miles west of Charlotte down I-85 in Kings Mountain


When are you going to post some pics? I am anxious to see what you've done. They don't have to be finished quality (hell take a look at my build log).


----------



## rugdnit

*Re: processor noise?*



kameraguy said:


> Hi, in case you recall how to get rid of it, please let me know...I also reached out to JBL support to see what they say. Will share if I find out how to correct this.


I get some pretty crappy noise through my sub... mostly low end grumble with the odd higher frequency pops. I switched the rca's from the sub over to my midbass and the noise showed up there as well. Very frustrating. And YES-- I UNPLUG THE MIC AFTER CALIBRATION.


----------



## subwoofery

elerner61 said:


> Andy, then what does MS-8 do when you perform acoustic calibrations at the different seat positions and those are saved? I would think that different seat positions (as well as Top Up, Top Down) would require different time corrections, not just equalizations.
> 
> Thx.


Using more seats for calibration only gives the MS-8 more info in order to calibrate. I don't see a reason why the time correction has to change from going Top Up to Top Down... 

Kelvin


----------



## Babs

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8 only stores one set of auto EQ correction filters. Do calibration with the top up. Adjust the 31 band to your liking. Save that as a preset.Then, put the top down, readjust the 31-band to your liking and save that as another preset.


I win!  One moon-pie and one root beer please. 



elerner61 said:


> Andy, then what does MS-8 do when you perform acoustic calibrations at the different seat positions and those are saved? I would think that different seat positions (as well as Top Up, Top Down) would require different time corrections, not just equalizations.
> 
> Thx.


Gonna guess again and say Yes they'll each get their own individual calibrations, but one to all positions measured are stored under the same record. 

If it didn't affect your normal driver seat calibration, that might be a way to beat it... Maybe calibrating top-up driver and passenger, then top-down rear-left and rear-right (but actually sitting in the driver and passenger). Then just select the rear position for top-down tunes... Maybe?

... Just might work to "trick" the MS-8. Can't hurt.. If it's screwed up, just re-calibrate.



subwoofery said:


> Using more seats for calibration only gives the MS-8 more info in order to calibrate. I don't see a reason why the time correction has to change from going Top Up to Top Down...
> Kelvin


That's the golden question.. If the other seat calibrations have anything to do with say just the driver seat calibration. ??? 
I'll bet not at all, so the driver seat calibration would typically be no different whether you calibrated just driver-seat or all. Granted I haven't had two calibrations exactly the same, but close.

... sorry can ya tell I've had way too much fun with the ms-8.. FINALLY. LOL!


----------



## 14642

elerner61 said:


> Andy, then what does MS-8 do when you perform acoustic calibrations at the different seat positions and those are saved? I would think that different seat positions (as well as Top Up, Top Down) would require different time corrections, not just equalizations.
> 
> Thx.


OK, That's a good idea...Measure the driver's seat with the top up. When it asks you to move to the passenger's seat, then put the top down. Then, driver's will be top up, passenger will be top down, but the "Front" will be a compromise between the two.

You could also calibrate for "Rear" by measuring the rear right and left seats with the top down while sitting in the driver's seat. then driver's would be top up, passenger would be top up, front would be a compromise between driver and passenger with the top up and rear would be driver with the top down.


----------



## Babs

I might have to try this outside with sunroof open. LOL

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## kameraguy

*Re: processor noise?*



rugdnit said:


> I get some pretty crappy noise through my sub... mostly low end grumble with the odd higher frequency pops. I switched the rca's from the sub over to my midbass and the noise showed up there as well. Very frustrating. And YES-- I UNPLUG THE MIC AFTER CALIBRATION.


I haven't received any reply back from JBL support yet. Will try and call when i get the chance.

Another issue I have been wrestling with is I am also encountering lack of mid-bass and excessive low-end rumble from my sub too (I see this has been discussed before).

I saw Andy mention to recalibrate with the subwoofer disconnected and see if this improves anything. I will give that a shot and see how it changes things.

Crossing fingers that somehow this would remedy the system noise too....


----------



## motovet

subwoofery said:


> Rears off the MS-8. The manual explains it.
> 
> Kelvin


Thanks. Figured everything had to go through the MS 8, but my Imprint allows tuning with HU power.....so wasn't positive since the manual didn't say to not do that.


----------



## JJDu4

OK Guys I sent this to Andy in a PM but I also thought I'd throw it out there to see if you guys can pinpoint my problem. Here's the rundown:


Im running the factory GM Nav Headunit in my 2011 Chevy Silverado 1500 Crew. My truck includes the BOSE junk too. So we came out of the bose amplifier front Left and Right line level into our JBL MS-8 front L & R input. Then we come out of the MS-8 using outputs 1,2,3 & 4 to a MS-A1004 running 4-channel mode - outputs 1 & 2 to my JL 5 1/4 Kick panel components and outputs 3 & 4 to my rear door 6 1/2" JL C3 coaxials for rear fill. We leave the MS-A1004 using the passthrough to a second MS-A1004 using inputs 1 & 3 using this amp bridged to my front left and right doors running a set of JL C5-653 3-way components. Ok so back to the MS-8 for outputs 7 & 8 that each goto their own MS-A5001 running a pair of JL 10W3's @ 2 ohm. So output 7 to 1 MS-A5001 and output 8 to the 2nd MS-A5001. 4 Total JL 10W3's in all. Ok so we've set the MS Amps with the input level set all the way down and the switch on LOW. We initially started with the output on all amps set at 50. Had no luck so we tested it at 60 and now at 70. We're getting the MS-8 to complete the setup but we have to defeat the processing completely to get any good sound out of it. Also we have a ton of noise with the volume turned down. The rear speakers at any real volume start making a weird noise also. He said he tried it with the amps switched to HI but then he had no volume. Wasn't sure if our problem was related to the bose crap or what. We've really spent alot of time wiring this and he swears he's double checked the polarity of all speakers. I didn't know if we needed to turn the amp inputs up the same amount after tuning to give us a bit more volume and possibly to take some of the noise out. But what are we doing wrong........I hope I haven't forgotten anything and would love nothing more than to prove to them that this JBL MS-8 is a cool processor. 


BTW I have one other question......we did a bandpass box ported through the wall of my truck and have the box and amp rack in my bed along with the MS-8......now my idea was to leave a really good quality 3.5mm extension plugged into the MS-8 and have that run into the center console of the truck.......that way when ever I need to calibrate the system I just plug the heaphone mic into the extension and unplug when done. Will this work or will it cause problems. The other problem is the MS-8 is flushed into the amp rack and getting to the jack is gonna be a task so I figured we'd make it easy to plug into. Thanks Andy in advance for all that you do on these forums and it made the difference in my decision to purchase JBL


----------



## pionkej

JJDu4 said:


> OK Guys I sent this to Andy in a PM but I also thought I'd throw it out there to see if you guys can pinpoint my problem. Here's the rundown:
> 
> 
> Im running the factory GM Nav Headunit in my 2011 Chevy Silverado 1500 Crew. My truck includes the BOSE **** too. So we came out of the bose amplifier front Left and Right line level into our JBL MS-8 front L & R input. Then we come out of the MS-8 using outputs 1,2,3 & 4 to a MS-A1004 running 4-channel mode - outputs 1 & 2 to my JL 5 1/4 Kick panel components and outputs 3 & 4 to my rear door 6 1/2" JL C3 coaxials for rear fill. We leave the MS-A1004 using the passthrough to a second MS-A1004 using inputs 1 & 3 using this amp bridged to my front left and right doors running a set of JL C5-653 3-way components. Ok so back to the MS-8 for outputs 7 & 8 that each goto their own MS-A5001 running a pair of JL 10W3's @ 2 ohm. So output 7 to 1 MS-A5001 and output 8 to the 2nd MS-A5001. 4 Total JL 10W3's in all. Ok so we've set the MS Amps with the input level set all the way down and the switch on LOW. We initially started with the output on all amps set at 50. Had no luck so we tested it at 60 and now at 70. We're getting the MS-8 to complete the setup but we have to defeat the processing completely to get any good sound out of it. Also we have a ton of noise with the volume turned down. The rear speakers at any real volume start making a weird noise also. He said he tried it with the amps switched to HI but then he had no volume. Wasn't sure if our problem was related to the bose crap or what. We've really spent alot of time wiring this and he swears he's double checked the polarity of all speakers. I didn't know if we needed to turn the amp inputs up the same amount after tuning to give us a bit more volume and possibly to take some of the noise out. But what are we doing wrong........I hope I haven't forgotten anything and would love nothing more than to prove to them that this JBL MS-8 is a cool processor. They only sell the Rockford 3Sixty.2 and the Alpine Imprint stuff so they all giving me hell about my JBL Decision but I've been on these forums enough to know that people are getting great results out of these units. I've even got JBL subs waiting to replace these JL 10W3's and a couple sets of the JBL MS-C62 components in route to make this system a complete JBL System once I get these minor problems worked out. BTW I have one other question......we did a bandpass box ported through the wall of my truck and have the box and amp rack in my bed along with the MS-8......now my idea was to leave a really good quality 3.5mm extension plugged into the MS-8 and have that run into the center console of the truck.......that way when ever I need to calibrate the system I just plug the heaphone mic into the extension and unplug when done. Will this work or will it cause problems. The other problem is the MS-8 is flushed into the amp rack and getting to the jack is gonna be a task so I figured we'd make it easy to plug into. Thanks Andy in advance for all that you do on these forums and it made the difference in my decision to purchase JBL


No offense, but I'm not even reading that until it resembles proper structure. Anything that looks like it would hurt my brain to read...I skip.

The only reason I'm even typing this is because I bet others who can help feel the same way.


----------



## 14642

I read it. Wasn't easy.

Please humor me and try a few things that will help me troubleshoot this:

1. Did you run the input setup with the CD and did you get "OK, OK, OK" in the display?

2. When you run acoustic calibration, what is the MS-8 volume control setting? 

Please answer those two questions and we can continue from there. 

If you decide to try all of this again before answering those questions, please disconnect the second MS-A1004--the one that runs the 3-ways in the front doors. The way your installer has hooked it up means that the front doors are receiving the sum of the front and rear (side) outputs of MS-8. That's not correct and isn't even a reasonable experiment.

In this configuration, set it up this way:

Front 1-way
Side 1-way
Sub 2

Subsonic filter: 20Hz, 12dB/Octave
Sub/Front: 80Hz, 24dB/Octave
Side: 100Hz, 24dB/octave

Then, set the amplifier input gain controls at minimum and the switch to Low. Turn the output level controls on the only MS-A1004 to 40. Turn the output level controls on the two MS-A5001s to 20. Run acoustic calibration.

If this sounds BETTER, then we can continue adding the rest of the speakers and the other amplifier and adjusting the overall volume of the car. My fear, as usual with installers who prefer the gear they're used to, is that they refuse to read the manual and refuse to give this thing a fair shake. Although two pairs of front full range speakers isn't ideal for MS-8 and isn't ideal for SQ, we can make it work, but please help me help you by trying my suggestions as we iterate toward a solution you're happy with.


----------



## blackknight87

*Re: processor noise?*



kameraguy said:


> Another issue I have been wrestling with is I am also encountering lack of mid-bass and excessive low-end rumble from my sub too (I see this has been discussed before).


I was having the problem with low end rumble, I raised the subsonic filter 10hz and it cleared up the problem. I think it was because my sub was only good to about 24hz and I originally had it at 20hz. Moved to 30hz and its crisp. no more low end rumble. 

And for lack of mid bass, i also lowered my sub/front filters. I had them set around 120hz. Lowered down to 90 and gained back some mid bass. I could probably go to 80 and be good too. 

Just gotta tweak with the filters. its kind of a pain that you cant set the filters on the fly, you have to go thru the whole calibration process. but oh well.


----------



## 14642

*Re: processor noise?*



blackknight87 said:


> I was having the problem with low end rumble, I raised the subsonic filter 10hz and it cleared up the problem. I think it was because my sub was only good to about 24hz and I originally had it at 20hz. Moved to 30hz and its crisp. no more low end rumble.
> 
> And for lack of mid bass, i also lowered my sub/front filters. I had them set around 120hz. Lowered down to 90 and gained back some mid bass. I could probably go to 80 and be good too.
> 
> Just gotta tweak with the filters. its kind of a pain that you cant set the filters on the fly, you have to go thru the whole calibration process. but oh well.


Yeah, it is a pain, but if you change the crossover, it invalidates the correction filter. It may be a pain, but this is one of the reasons that this autotune mostly works and many of the others mostly don't.


----------



## JJDu4

Andy Thanks for the response.....your right on the giving it a fair shake. WHats the ideal volume for the MS-8 controller? He says he's tried it at multiple levels. I also thought the sub amps output level was up to high.......


----------



## JJDu4

Andy I'm going over in the morning to do the process myself.......I think he's not giving it a fair shake either. My question is would it be better for the 2nd MS-A1004 to be feed out of the MS-8's 1 and 2 outputs using y adapters.....ultimately giving the 5 1/4 kicks and the front doors the same signal? This is instead of using the pass through on the first amp.


----------



## an2ny888

Andy, will the ms8 operate properly if my sub has a non defeatable x0ver? im using a powered alpine sub right now, am i right thinking the sub sweeps will be adversely affected by the x-over?


----------



## radarcontact

Somebody, pleeeeeaaaaase...(installing right now)

I have seen to "level match before running auto tune" or similar. That is my sticking point...how? I am running 120w to rears and front wid-woofers off a Massive Audio NX5, and 40w to tweeters off an Alpine. I thought everything was supposed to be set at 2v?

There are just too many pages in this thread, my head is gonna explode! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 14642

Set everything to 2V and run acoustic calibration with the volume at -40.


----------



## 14642

an2ny888 said:


> Andy, will the ms8 operate properly if my sub has a non defeatable x0ver? im using a powered alpine sub right now, am i right thinking the sub sweeps will be adversely affected by the x-over?


Set the crossover to the highest frequency available on the sub's controls.


----------



## 14642

JJDu4 said:


> Andy I'm going over in the morning to do the process myself.......I think he's not giving it a fair shake either. My question is would it be better for the 2nd MS-A1004 to be feed out of the MS-8's 1 and 2 outputs using y adapters.....ultimately giving the 5 1/4 kicks and the front doors the same signal? This is instead of using the pass through on the first amp.


Yes, that would be better. I really think you ought to try this without the second set of front speakers connected first to get this going. I think you'll find that you have better imaging in the driver's seat if you just use one pair of speakers for the front (the door speakers). Then. once this sounds good, I'd think about adding the kick panel speakers to channels 5 and 6 and configuring them as sides. Then they'll play ambient sounds and probably help to make the stage deeper. If you do that, then the rear speakers would be configured as rear. It's important to establish a good baseline first, before trying all of this unconventional stuff. 

Have your installer call me if he doesn't get it. PM me first.

Also, all of the crossovers in the MS-Amps should be set to "OFF".


----------



## 14642

Geez...why does nearly every "professional" installer with a Snap-On tool box think they know more than me and why do I always have to argue with them?

Oh, I know. I was that way too when I was an installer. In fact, I blasted the guy at ADS one day. Of course, 10 years later, I discovered that he was right and I had to call him to apologize.


----------



## radarcontact

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Set everything to 2V and run acoustic calibration with the volume at -40.


Thank you Sir; I have no Snap-On toolbox...!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Kiong34

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Set everything to 2V and run acoustic calibration with the volume at -40.


Hi Andy,

using aftermarket amp set at 2v and run -40db calibration.
if it is still not ideal then should the next calibration be louder or softer? I mean -39db or -41db???

Tks


----------



## Ganderson

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Set everything to 2V and run acoustic calibration with the volume at -40.


What if this yields a sweep level of only ~ 52db?

Is this loud enough for the calibration to work properly?

If not, is it better to increase the MS-8 volume or the amp gain? 

How much?


----------



## Ganderson

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Geez...why does nearly every "professional" installer with a Snap-On tool box think they know more than me and why do I always have to argue with them?
> 
> Oh, I know. I was that way too when I was an installer. In fact, I blasted the guy at ADS one day. Of course, 10 years later, I discovered that he was right and I had to call him to apologize.


Haha. I'm nowhere near an installer but I can understand how the MS-8 would lead to these types of "discussions" with people who are used to doing things manually.


----------



## thehatedguy

I can finally listen to the IASCA disk and not want to cry. Not to say that it is a great disk...but those who have the disk probably understand what I mean.

I only have a small Matco toolbox though...lol.


----------



## JJDu4

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, that would be better. I really think you ought to try this without the second set of front speakers connected first to get this going. I think you'll find that you have better imaging in the driver's seat if you just use one pair of speakers for the front (the door speakers). Then. once this sounds good, I'd think about adding the kick panel speakers to channels 5 and 6 and configuring them as sides. Then they'll play ambient sounds and probably help to make the stage deeper. If you do that, then the rear speakers would be configured as rear. It's important to establish a good baseline first, before trying all of this unconventional stuff.
> 
> Have your installer call me if he doesn't get it. PM me first.
> 
> Also, all of the crossovers in the MS-Amps should be set to "OFF".


Hey Andy thanks again for the reply.....He says he's done it with the 2nd amp unplugged already(this takes the doors out). I also know the crossovers on the amps are set off. I can't verify the procedures are being followed until I try myself. 


If it makes you feel any better he's got a nice fancy Mac Tool Box but then whats the difference huh......haha

BTW I may try to setup a phone call with you and the Shop owner if your OK with it early next week if we still haven't got it.  They called last night saying it was playing without the processor and it rock'd but I don't want to give up on the processor that easy.


----------



## mmiller

thehatedguy said:


> I can finally listen to the IASCA disk and not want to cry. Not to say that it is a great disk...but those who have the disk probably understand what I mean.
> 
> I only have a small Matco toolbox though...lol.


Yup the Iasca Dick sure does suck......


----------



## radarcontact

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Set everything to 2V and run acoustic calibration with the volume at -40.


Okay, anyone...how do I set the amps to 2v?

I'm guessing I take a reading from the speaker output terminals at the amp(s) after I get the head unit volume where it's supposed to be? Is that right? 

(god I hate being so damn ignorant)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## subwoofery

radarcontact said:


> Okay, anyone...how do I set the amps to 2v?
> 
> I'm guessing I take a reading from the speaker output terminals at the amp(s) after I get the head unit volume where it's supposed to be? Is that right?
> 
> (god I hate being so damn ignorant)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


If you don't know how to set the amp for 2V, don't worry about it too much (for now ) 

Calibrate it @ -40 volume and listen to the sound coming from each speaker. 
If one noise is louder than another, try to up the gain (@ the amp) on the quieter one 
Also remember that the subwoofer should be heard and not felt... 

Then listen to your system with familiar music 

Not satisfied? Try a different volume for the calibration. 
Not satisfied? Try to play with your gains (@ the amp) and recalibrate. 

*Some people forget that the MS-8 is still a processor* that needs attention in order to take full advantage of it's potential... I know marketing states plug and play but you really need to play with it and try different things so that it can only reward you with good sound. 

Kelvin


----------



## 14642

Just lokk in the manual or on the labels for the potentiometers. If the manual says the adjustment range is 100mV to 4V, then set the controls somewhere near the middle. It isn't critical.


----------



## 14642

subwoofery said:


> If you don't know how to set the amp for 2V, don't worry about it too much (for now )
> 
> Calibrate it @ -40 volume and listen to the sound coming from each speaker.
> If one noise is louder than another, try to up the gain (@ the amp) on the quieter one
> Also remember that the subwoofer should be heard and not felt...
> 
> Then listen to your system with familiar music
> 
> Not satisfied? Try a different volume for the calibration.
> Not satisfied? Try to play with your gains (@ the amp) and recalibrate.
> 
> *Some people forget that the MS-8 is still a processor* that needs attention in order to take full advantage of it's potential... I know marketing states plug and play but you really need to play with it and try different things so that it can only reward you with good sound.
> 
> Kelvin


Yes, this is right. The sweep levels don't have to be precisely at a certain level for the thing to work. If you can hear the sweeps easily they're loud enough. If after calibration you have no center image and it seems as though the EQ is seriously wrong--like lots of highs and no midbass, then they're too loud. There's no "fine adjustment" required. No need to try -27, then -28, then -29. Try -30. If it doesn't work, then try -40, for example.


----------



## 14642

thehatedguy said:


> I can finally listen to the IASCA disk and not want to cry. Not to say that it is a great disk...but those who have the disk probably understand what I mean.
> 
> I only have a small Matco toolbox though...lol.


And they wonder why no hip-hoppers want to enter an ISACA contest...If I listened to nothing but Dre and 50-Cent, there's no way I'm paying money for some old guy who plays the trumpet in the praise band at Church to listen to Rebecca PiDgeon mewl about being dissappointed by her picnic date's chauvinistic pig behavior and then get out and say, "there's too much bass which masks the ambience contained in the original recording. That ambience should give you a realistic sense of the recording space". 

I'd have only one response to that... "F You". Hey wait, I think I've given that response and I listen to all kinds of stuff--not just 50-Cent and Dre.


----------



## FartinInTheTub

I just got my DRZ9255 and am wanting to make sure I use the right RCA outputs from the deck. Do I use the mid/front rca? Because there is also a "high" rca. I'm pretty sure I use the mid/front but want to be sure.


----------



## thehatedguy

I don't get it, but I raised my rears from 60 to 80 and the ambiance went WAY WAY WAY up.


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> I don't get it, but I raised my rears from 60 to 80 and the ambiance went WAY WAY WAY up.


Try 100Hz like Andy suggested then  

Kelvin


----------



## thehatedguy

I thought he said 80 or the manual did...that's why I did it. Next time I mess with it, I will bump it up to 100.


----------



## an2ny888

isn't 100 the default menu choice?


----------



## SWRocket

So I have my system pretty good right now. The MS-8 is working great, I have a good centered, if narrow, front stage and great midbase and sub. My current setup is a 2-way front (6.5 midbase 1" tweeter) and 1 12" sub
I'm looking to the next level now and would like some advice on what would give me the most improvement with the MS-8.
I will be adding 1 4ch amp.
I can then do one of the following: 3-way front and a center, 3-way front and rear/side comps, center and rear/side comps.
I have L7 off right now by the way.

appreciate any advice


----------



## Neil_J

How hot does the MS-8 get when being externally amplified? This was asked back in May 2010, but wasn't really answered. I couldn't imagine it using more than 12-25 watts, so does it even get warm to the touch?? Bueller?


----------



## Mark the Bold

Just installed this in my truck and replaced my long time friend the DQXS.

Without sounding too gushing in my praise, this is probably the single biggest improvement to my car's system ever. My music is now coming from the center of the dash, and everything sounds just incredible. I've been tinkering with the DQXS for a year now, and the 5 minute autotune blows my best efforts away easily. 

Despite all the "everyone's got their own opinion on what sounds good", I am now a firm believer in the fact that there IS a true scientific flat response curve to a systems output. AND it sounds incredible.

My only gripe (REALLY minor one) with it is the default -20dB volume offset during calibration. Maybe Kenwood puts out a weak-ass signal but with even -10dB I max out my HU volume's before it gets close to being even loud. Easy enough fix; just run the recalibration again at -0db. Maybe Andy, on the next firmware you can allow us to adjust the volume offset from the main menu without having to recalibrate from scratch. REALLY splitting hairs here I know.

So in conclusion:

Andy, 

You guys got a winner with this one. A sincere kudos to you and the entire Harman / JBL team for putting out a revolutionary industry pushing product. This really feels like the "front-suspension-fork-on-bicycle"moment in the car audio industry; you can never, ever go back once you've used /(ridden) it once.

PS: Andy, no doubt you guys have a long history with GM putting JBL systems in their upgraded stereo packages for their vehicles. Have you ever proposed putting a MS-8 upgrade package in their vehicles? Because my God, the price GM charges for the JBL package on their vehicles is WAY, WAY, WAY more than the street value of this product and doesn't sound nowhere even close to as good.

Cheers,
Mark


----------



## radarcontact

I think the hardest thing about owning one is figuring out where to mount the display! It's driving me crazy, TBO.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## pionkej

I just wanted to say THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU to Andy for such a wonderful product. I got it installed this morning, and started with the sub level low and the crossover at 100hz to mids. I ran the level -40. I didn't have any midbass and "boomy" subbass (like mentioned). I didn't worry, but knew I would try again. Lowered the sub level and changed the crossover to 80...no dice.

I was out at the MECA finals doing this and didn't have tools to try anything else...so I let it be. When I got home, I swapped the polarity on the sub channel. BINGO!!! I have bass up front and an image that doesn't move no matter how my head is turned. I can't stress enough (what has already been stressed), check your polarity if you have a midbass suckout.

For those wondering what I'm running:

AE IB12's: 20-100hz (24db)
Alpine SPX-13pro: 100hz-3500hz (24db)
LPG Aluminum tweets: 3500hz+ (24db)
Alpine Single Din Center: 300hz+ (24db)
Hertz HL70 Rear-fill: 300hz+ (24db)

The weak point is the Alpine center, but it is still clear and wonderful sounding at reasonable listening levels and I didn't have to hack my dash up for it. I'm going all out on my wife's car (since we drive it 99.2% of the time) and will be running an MS8 there as well.


----------



## pionkej

radarcontact said:


> I think the hardest thing about owning one is figuring out where to mount the display! It's driving me crazy, TBO.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


How about the ash tray?


----------



## mr_5a

mr_5a said:


> Hello, a newbie here Please, help!
> (For the question if I had read the thread - no, I read about 100 pages and spend a days googling through it, but I didn't fine anything similar to my problem)
> 1. My remote control is very slow. Sometimes I have to push some button 5x to make it work. Sometimes it works without problem for a while. Sometimes I have to wait 10s. Once it even stopped working, I had to put the CR-battery out. Is this a feature or a bug? I tested battery, it's 3V.
> 2. Without DSP processing (ms-8 defeated) sound is quite ok. Not tuned, but listenable. Little too little bass I would say, the tweeters are two loud, the bass is quite unprecise and quiet, but it's much better than VW-OEM, which used to be there before.
> But when I click MS-8 Active, then the sound starts to be like from some metallic tube, really bad. Maybe AM radio would be very similar sound.
> Activating L7 doesn't have much impact.
> 2.1. Could that be the microphone is bad?
> 2.2. Or should I check the speakers wireing? Is this the out of phase problem?
> 2.3. Or could that be the wireing HU-MS8?
> 
> I tried to config my system without subwoofer and the problem remains.
> I tried to config my system with front speakers only and the problem remains.
> I tried to config my system with rear speakers only and the problem remains.
> 
> My config is:
> Volkswagen Multivan
> RNS 510 head unit (12dB setting = cca 4V?) with stereo wiring output
> 2channels power wiring
> MS-8 with power wiring input
> MS-8 RCA - FL,FR,RL,RR,Sub
> RCA wiring to Sub, RCA wiring to Magnat amplifier
> Alpine swe 1000 subwoofer
> Magnat Edition Four amplifier - 4channels FL,FR,RL,RR
> Front GTO6507c 2way speakers with passive Xover
> Rear GT6-6c 2way speaker with passive Xover
> 
> The installation and wireing has been done by car service company.
> 
> Thanks for your answers,
> Peter


Please, help!
Is there anybody close Bratislava/Slovakia to tune MS8? Of course, paid service.

Since last time:
1. I checked the polarity of all wiring
2. I cancelled GTO6507c passive xover and used MS8 for tweeters, AMP for bass
3. I upgraded firmware (the echo cancelling patch)
4. I tried to calibrate at various volume levels
5. I tried to calibrate with front speakers (without rear, without sub)
6. I tried to calibrate with the gain down at my amp

What else shall I do? Still the sound is much better with DEFEATed processing. With DSP ON the sound has less volume and sounds like coming from some metallic tube, or maybe some underwater sound.
Peter


----------



## kaigoss69

mr_5a said:


> Please, help!
> Is there anybody close Bratislava/Slovakia to tune MS8? Of course, paid service.
> 
> Since last time:
> 1. I checked the polarity of all wiring
> 2. I cancelled GTO6507c passive xover and used MS8 for tweeters, AMP for bass
> 3. I upgraded firmware (the echo cancelling patch)
> 4. I tried to calibrate at various volume levels
> 5. I tried to calibrate with front speakers (without rear, without sub)
> 6. I tried to calibrate with the gain down at my amp
> 
> What else shall I do? Still the sound is much better with DEFEATed processing. With DSP ON the sound has less volume and sounds like coming from some metallic tube, or maybe some underwater sound.
> Peter


Have you checked your inputs? Try connecting an iPod to the AUX inputs and see if that improves things or not. Also, make sure the sweeps are all at the same volume levels. Lastly, double check your x-over settings.


----------



## 14642

Mark the Bold said:


> Just installed this in my truck and replaced my long time friend the DQXS.
> 
> Without sounding too gushing in my praise, this is probably the single biggest improvement to my car's system ever. My music is now coming from the center of the dash, and everything sounds just incredible. I've been tinkering with the DQXS for a year now, and the 5 minute autotune blows my best efforts away easily.
> 
> Despite all the "everyone's got their own opinion on what sounds good", I am now a firm believer in the fact that there IS a true scientific flat response curve to a systems output. AND it sounds incredible.
> 
> My only gripe (REALLY minor one) with it is the default -20dB volume offset during calibration. Maybe Kenwood puts out a weak-ass signal but with even -10dB I max out my HU volume's before it gets close to being even loud. Easy enough fix; just run the recalibration again at -0db. Maybe Andy, on the next firmware you can allow us to adjust the volume offset from the main menu without having to recalibrate from scratch. REALLY splitting hairs here I know.
> 
> So in conclusion:
> 
> Andy,
> 
> You guys got a winner with this one. A sincere kudos to you and the entire Harman / JBL team for putting out a revolutionary industry pushing product. This really feels like the "front-suspension-fork-on-bicycle"moment in the car audio industry; you can never, ever go back once you've used /(ridden) it once.
> 
> PS: Andy, no doubt you guys have a long history with GM putting JBL systems in their upgraded stereo packages for their vehicles. Have you ever proposed putting a MS-8 upgrade package in their vehicles? Because my God, the price GM charges for the JBL package on their vehicles is WAY, WAY, WAY more than the street value of this product and doesn't sound nowhere even close to as good.
> 
> Cheers,
> Mark


mark,
I don't understand the -20 dB thing. once calibration is finished, turn the MS-8 volume control up to -6 or so if you want to use your factory volume control. Also, if you need more level, you can also turn the gain controls on your amps up, so long as you turn them all up by the same amount.


----------



## 14642

mr_5a said:


> Please, help!
> Is there anybody close Bratislava/Slovakia to tune MS8? Of course, paid service.
> 
> Since last time:
> 1. I checked the polarity of all wiring
> 2. I cancelled GTO6507c passive xover and used MS8 for tweeters, AMP for bass
> 3. I upgraded firmware (the echo cancelling patch)
> 4. I tried to calibrate at various volume levels
> 5. I tried to calibrate with front speakers (without rear, without sub)
> 6. I tried to calibrate with the gain down at my amp
> 
> What else shall I do? Still the sound is much better with DEFEATed processing. With DSP ON the sound has less volume and sounds like coming from some metallic tube, or maybe some underwater sound.
> Peter


First, where is the display mounted? It may be a problem with the RF reception due to metal or a metal film windshield. This is a problem occasionally. 

Second, please try an iPod or something else plugged into the Aux input so we can trya to isolate the problem to input or output processing.

Finally, I'm not familiar with that head unit. is it a VW head unit or aftermarket of some kind?


----------



## mr_5a

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> First, where is the display mounted? It may be a problem with the RF reception due to metal or a metal film windshield. This is a problem occasionally.
> 
> Second, please try an iPod or something else plugged into the Aux input so we can trya to isolate the problem to input or output processing.
> 
> Finally, I'm not familiar with that head unit. is it a VW head unit or aftermarket of some kind?


Remote - Aha, so the RF unit is in the display. OK, I can fiddle with it. What frequency does it use? Maybe it beats with something. Somewhere I read about bluetooth, is that true?

OK, I will try some AUX in source and let you know. It's a little bit surprising, because with DEFEAT option, the sound is quite OK (the bass is not very precise, but tweeter is perfect).

RNS 510 is top head unit from VW with touch display. We used only front speakers to wire to MS8. The HU detects there is no impedance on rear speakers and converts itself to stereo (even fader menu disappears). There are 2 options how to program:
- currently I use the output signal lowered to 12dB (probably amplified and then reduced voltage)
- I want to try to reprogram back to 26dB (fully amplified)

Please, can you recommend the right xover frequencies for the used JBL speakers (GTO6507c)? The rear speakers, what xover - 50Hz?

Peter


----------



## 14642

Hi Peter,
Try 80Hz between the sub and the front 24dB/oct and 80Hz on the rear also 24dB/octave. 

I suggest fully amplified!


----------



## Mark the Bold

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> mark,
> I don't understand the -20 dB thing. once calibration is finished, turn the MS-8 volume control up to -6 or so if you want to use your factory volume control. Also, if you need more level, you can also turn the gain controls on your amps up, so long as you turn them all up by the same amount.


I'm a fool. I didn't know you could control the volume from the Ms-8. The only time I saw the volume dial was during the calibration process, and it wasnt in the audio control menu, so I thought you could only access the volume offset there at the beginning of calibration. But the remote control does indeed have volume control. Please disregard my dumbassedness.


----------



## 14642

Mark the Bold said:


> I'm a fool. I didn't know you could control the volume from the Ms-8. The only time I saw the volume dial was during the calibration process, and it wasnt in the audio control menu, so I thought you could only access the volume offset there at the beginning of calibration. But the remote control does indeed have volume control. Please disregard my dumbassedness.


I'll disregard your supposed "dumbassedness" if you agree to disregard my lack of hair and the fact that my belly swings in front of me like a shopping cart when I walk.

No problem, Mark. Glad it's working.


----------



## JJDu4

Andy,

I haven't had time to play with the MS-8 myself but since our last conversation they say they still haven't had any luck getting it to sound right. I copied a post from earlier and sent it to both of my guys this post was where the guy got home from an event and changed the polarity on his sub-channel and Volla!! It fixed his problems completely. I was hoping this would light a flame under them and get them to double and triple check things once more. Well it didn't......I got a call just a bit saying they stuck a Alpine 660 Imprint in and it setup immediately the first time. He claims there's a few small adjustments to be made but that it sounds great! I just don't wanna give up on this and was thinking of taking you up on your offer to talk with us. Let me know what you think?


----------



## 14642

JJDu4 said:


> Andy,
> 
> I haven't had time to play with the MS-8 myself but since our last conversation they say they still haven't had any luck getting it to sound right. I copied a post from earlier and sent it to both of my guys this post was where the guy got home from an event and changed the polarity on his sub-channel and Volla!! It fixed his problems completely. I was hoping this would light a flame under them and get them to double and triple check things once more. Well it didn't......I got a call just a bit saying they stuck a Alpine 660 Imprint in and it setup immediately the first time. He claims there's a few small adjustments to be made but that it sounds great! I just don't wanna give up on this and was thinking of taking you up on your offer to talk with us. Let me know what you think?


I'm happy to try to help over the phone. Please PM me the number and a time to call.


----------



## taibanl

Guys,

I just got back from overseas, I am going to try some of the solutions recommended to me on p234 +/-1 (prob with boomy bass/no mid bass)

I was wondering if detailing my system might help some of you smart guys suggest some good cross points/slopes

Car, BMW e90 3 series Sedan
HU--> MS-8

MS-8 to
-Center Channel Rainbow SL 100
-OEM Rear Deck Speakers (2ch)
-JL XD 600/6 Powering Fronts(via Passive X-over) Rainbow SLC 210.25 NG and 4 channels bridged to two powering underseat Kicker SSMB8 (T/S Parameters HERE)
-Alpine MRD-M300 powering ID 10 D4 v.3 in sealed VP Electricity Sealed Enclosure (.6 cu ft?)

Also: are there any downsides to the Kaigoss mod (running Sub off of mid bass channels)? If I did that I could run the center channel (coaxial) as a two way/active instead with the added benefit of giving it two channels of MS-8 power.

Additional issues:

1) Background MS-8 induced processor noise - got it to go away before, now it won't
2) Speakers popping with power on/off despite amps wiring to remote terminal of MS-8


----------



## 14642

Try "reset to factory defaults" in the settings menu before recalibrating. Use the Kaigoss deal and free-up the extra channel for the center.


----------



## mr_5a

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hi Peter,
> Try 80Hz between the sub and the front 24dB/oct and 80Hz on the rear also 24dB/octave.
> 
> I suggest fully amplified!


Hello Andy
what xover settings to use between bass and tweeter? GTO6507c don't have xover frequency published. 4000Hz?

I tried AUX IN (from iPhone). Again the same result. The uncalibrated sound (DSP defeat) fine. With DSP Active, the sound gets terrible. It's not the sound source problem according my guess. Or shall I calibrate from the aux in (is this possible?)?
Peter


----------



## akelu

If assigning the sub to low instead of
"subwoofer", do I simply connect low left and low right to the l/r inputs on the sub amp?


----------



## Ganderson

akelu said:


> If assigning the sub to low instead of
> "subwoofer", do I simply connect low left and low right to the l/r inputs on the sub amp?


Yes. The only reason this would not work is if your sub amp doesn't sum the L/R signal internally... but I believe most mono amps do.


----------



## Ganderson

Ok... here is one that has me a bit puzzled.

I was having some imaging issues a couple weeks ago so I decided to pull out the Focal JMLab Tools CD Tracks.

Track 3: "Front Channels Polarity Test" (alternates between in-phase / out-of-phase mono pink noise)

For Reference, iPhone -> Headphones:
in-phase = noise centered between ears
out-of-phase= noise diffused across L/R

Testing L/R signal from HU -> Headphones... OK

Testing system listening from drivers seat w/ MS-8 processing defeated... Phase reversed.

I then reversed the polarity of my left tweet/mid at the amp output.

Again, testing system listening from drivers seat w/ MS-8 processing defeated... Phase OK. I assume the problem is solved, re-calibrate and move on. I never checked it with processing active for some reason.

It has been bugging me though so today I wanted to verify again with this test track:

Testing system listening from drivers seat w/ MS-8 processing defeated... Phase OK (as expected).

Testing system listening from drivers seat w/ MS-8 processing ACTIVE (driver position)... Phase clearly REVERSED. WTF.

Why would the MS-8 processing cause this track to sound out-of-phase!!??

*EDIT: I do not run rear speakers and L7 is always disabled.*


----------



## pionkej

Ganderson said:


> Ok... here is one that has me a bit puzzled.
> 
> I was having some imaging issues a couple weeks ago so I decided to pull out the Focal JMLab Tools CD Tracks.
> 
> Track 3: "Front Channels Polarity Test" (alternates between in-phase / out-of-phase mono pink noise)
> 
> For Reference, iPhone -> Headphones:
> in-phase = noise centered between ears
> out-of-phase= noise diffused across L/R
> 
> Testing L/R signal from HU -> Headphones... OK
> 
> Testing system listening from drivers seat w/ MS-8 processing defeated... Phase reversed.
> 
> I then reversed the polarity of my left tweet/mid at the amp output.
> 
> Again, testing system listening from drivers seat w/ MS-8 processing defeated... Phase OK. I assume the problem is solved, re-calibrate and move on. I never checked it with processing active for some reason.
> 
> It has been bugging me though so today I wanted to verify again with this test track:
> 
> Testing system listening from drivers seat w/ MS-8 processing defeated... Phase OK (as expected).
> 
> Testing system listening from drivers seat w/ MS-8 processing ACTIVE (driver position)... Phase clearly REVERSED. WTF.
> 
> Why would the MS-8 processing cause this track to sound out-of-phase!!??


I may be wrong about this, but with L7 turned on, out of phase information is primarily sent to the rear and flipped. Enough is played up front to keep the image there, but I believe it should sound reversed. This is part of how the MS8 can create such depth and ambiance. I will edit my post and delete this if it turns out I'm wrong.

On a side note about phase and the MS8, you should really try stuff from Maynard James Keenan (Tool and a Perfect Circle). He does a lot with sounds panned hard left and right and phase. My two favorites so far a "Counting Bodies like Sheep" (a Perfect Circle-eMotive) and "The Pot" (Tool-10,000 days). The former is a pretty industrial sounding track and it feels like the sounds are moving all around you. The latter is just awesome!  I never knew until Sunday (when I installed the MS8) that he actually sings the lyrics in the first verse about 6db lower before the "primary" lyrics you hear. That includes listening to the song on my Shure headphones. I was sitting in the car with my wife and couldn't stop laughing at how I NEVER heard that before then.


----------



## Ganderson

I don't run rears and L7 is always off.

Also, I agree about "The Pot"... I LOVE that song and use it as one of my reference tracks... Jambi also.



pionkej said:


> I may be wrong about this, but with L7 turned on, out of phase information is primarily sent to the rear and flipped. Enough is played up front to keep the image there, but I believe it should sound reversed. This is part of how the MS8 can create such depth and ambiance. I will edit my post and delete this if it turns out I'm wrong.
> 
> On a side note about phase and the MS8, you should really try stuff from Maynard James Keenan (Tool and a Perfect Circle). He does a lot with sounds panned hard left and right and phase. My two favorites so far a "Counting Bodies like Sheep" (a Perfect Circle-eMotive) and "The Pot" (Tool-10,000 days). The former is a pretty industrial sounding track and it feels like the sounds are moving all around you. The latter is just awesome!  I never knew until Sunday (when I installed the MS8) that he actually sings the lyrics in the first verse about 6db lower before the "primary" lyrics you hear. That includes listening to the song on my Shure headphones. I was sitting in the car with my wife and couldn't stop laughing at how I NEVER heard that before then.


----------



## taibanl

taibanl said:


> Guys,
> 
> I just got back from overseas, I am going to try some of the solutions recommended to me on p234 +/-1 (prob with boomy bass/no mid bass)
> 
> I was wondering if detailing my system might help some of you smart guys suggest some good cross points/slopes
> 
> Car, BMW e90 3 series Sedan
> HU--> MS-8
> 
> MS-8 to
> -Center Channel Rainbow SL 100
> -OEM Rear Deck Speakers (2ch)
> -JL XD 600/6 Powering Fronts(via Passive X-over) Rainbow SLC 210.25 NG and 4 channels bridged to two powering underseat Kicker SSMB8 (T/S Parameters HERE)
> -Alpine MRD-M300 powering ID 10 D4 v.3 in sealed VP Electricity Sealed Enclosure (.6 cu ft?)
> 
> Also: are there any downsides to the Kaigoss mod (running Sub off of mid bass channels)? If I did that I could run the center channel (coaxial) as a two way/active instead with the added benefit of giving it two channels of MS-8 power.
> 
> Additional issues:
> 
> 1) Background MS-8 induced processor noise - got it to go away before, now it won't
> 2) Speakers popping with power on/off despite amps wiring to remote terminal of MS-8


Here is what I picked for now, until I can wire the Kaigoss Mod + 2 way Center channel. So far I get mixed results with various calibration levels between -50 and -20, they all seem to have boosted sub, lacking lacking midbass.


12db @ 20hz
Sub
12 db @ 55hz
Midbass underseat
18 db @ 300hz
Midrange
(Passive @ 3.6kHz)
Tweets

Center + Sides (in rear deck) 24db @150hz.

Anyone have any recommendations?


----------



## pionkej

taibanl said:


> Here is what I picked for now, until I can wire the Kaigoss Mod + 2 way Center channel. So far I get mixed results with various calibration levels between -50 and -20, they all seem to have boosted sub, lacking lacking midbass.
> 
> 
> 12db @ 20hz
> Sub
> 12 db @ 55hz
> Midbass underseat
> 18 db @ 300hz
> Midrange
> (Passive @ 3.6kHz)
> Tweets
> 
> Center + Sides (in rear deck) 24db @150hz.
> 
> Anyone have any recommendations?


Try putting the midbass/sub crossover at 24db and bumping it up a bit (start at 80 and work back down to 63).

Try 24db between midrange/midbass also (I had bad side bias show up when I tried an 18db slope).

If the sub is already pretty closely level matched to everything, try running the whole setup at a lower volume. I set the MS8 to -40 per recommendations. I set my Alpine h/u at 10 (it goes to 35). After I did that, it sounded perfect. I use 27 as my max unclipped volume at the HU and turned the MS8 up until I heard distortion from the speakers (for me that was -9) and clicked it back down a couple steps (-11). You should be able to overpower the sweeps with a normal speaking voice, they need to be quiet or you will have problems every time.

Hope that helps.


----------



## 14642

Ganderson said:


> Ok... here is one that has me a bit puzzled.
> 
> I was having some imaging issues a couple weeks ago so I decided to pull out the Focal JMLab Tools CD Tracks.
> 
> Track 3: "Front Channels Polarity Test" (alternates between in-phase / out-of-phase mono pink noise)
> 
> For Reference, iPhone -> Headphones:
> in-phase = noise centered between ears
> out-of-phase= noise diffused across L/R
> 
> Testing L/R signal from HU -> Headphones... OK
> 
> Testing system listening from drivers seat w/ MS-8 processing defeated... Phase reversed.
> 
> I then reversed the polarity of my left tweet/mid at the amp output.
> 
> Again, testing system listening from drivers seat w/ MS-8 processing defeated... Phase OK. I assume the problem is solved, re-calibrate and move on. I never checked it with processing active for some reason.
> 
> It has been bugging me though so today I wanted to verify again with this test track:
> 
> Testing system listening from drivers seat w/ MS-8 processing defeated... Phase OK (as expected).
> 
> Testing system listening from drivers seat w/ MS-8 processing ACTIVE (driver position)... Phase clearly REVERSED. WTF.
> 
> Why would the MS-8 processing cause this track to sound out-of-phase!!??
> 
> *EDIT: I do not run rear speakers and L7 is always disabled.*


With processing off, the time alignment is defeated. If your speakers are in the doors, then the PLD places vocal frequencies out of phase without TA. With TA, those frequencies are back in phase. Sounds to me like the polarity was correct before (if your midrange speakers are in the doors).


----------



## AWC

Andy, I know its been said before so I'll make it brief. Thank you very very much for the wealth of information you've provided over these couple years now.

I know its tied to a product (for all the nay-sayers, if there is one, which there aren't that I know of) but you've shared a lot of great guidance while you were here.


----------



## radarcontact

AWC said:


> Andy, I know its been said before so I'll make it brief. Thank you very very much for the wealth of information you've provided over these couple years now.


^
+1, absolutely!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## truckerfte

How long should I be seeing the "please wait" screen before I start to worry?

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk


----------



## mr_5a

PROBLEMS:
A. My remote control is very slow. Sometimes I have to push some button 5x to make it work. Sometimes it works without problem for a while. Once it even stopped working, I had to put the CR2032-battery out. 
B. Without DSP processing (ms-8 defeated) sound is quite ok. Not tuned, but listenable. Too little bass I would say, the tweeters are two loud (with sss very strong), the bass is quite unprecise and quiet, but it's much better than VW-OEM, which used to be there before. 
But when I click MS-8 Active, then the sound starts to be very poor, flat, without bass and without highs, really bad. Maybe AM radio would be very similar sound. Activating L7 doesn't have much impact then.

MY CONFIG:
Volkswagen Multivan in Bratislava/Slovakia
OEM RNS 510 HU (12dB setting = cca 4V?) stereo power output
MS-8 power input
MS-8 RCA output (1,2,3,4,8) – FR Low,FL Low,RR,RL,Sub
MS-8 power output (5,6) – FR Hi, FL Hi
Alpine swe 1000 subwoofer
Magnat Edition Four amplifier - 4channels FR Low,FL Low,RL,RR
Front GTO6507c 2way speakers (I cancelled passive xover)
Rear GT6-6c 2way speakers (with passive xover)
Wireing done by professionals

WHAT'S DONE - NO IMPORTANT RESULT NOTICED:
A.1. I tested battery, it's more than 3V, even when the button is pushed.
A.2. I tried to move the display (Andy's question), but it's the same when the display is in my hands far from anything else.
B.1. I rechecked the polarity of all wiring
B.2. I cancelled GTO6507c passive xover and used MS8 for tweeters, AMP for bass
B.3. I upgraded firmware (the echo cancelling patch)
B.4. I tried to calibrate at various volume levels (-40 ~ -5)
B.5. I tried to calibrate with front speakers only (without rear, without sub)
B.6. I tried to calibrate with the gain down at my amp 
B.7. I tried to play sound through AUX IN (iphone) (Andy'w question)

IDEAS TO DO:
A.1. Beating frequencies?
A.2. Find somebody with other remote and test it.
B.1. Find somebody with other microphone and test it.
B.2. Andy recommended 80Hz 24dB/oct for both front and rear
B.3. Find proper xover frequency for JBL GTO6507c (I cancelled passive JBL xover and have no idea what frequency should be used. 4000Hz?)


PLEASE, HELP!
Is there anybody close Bratislava/Slovakia to tune MS8? Of course, paid service. I don't care about money, I want to have it working.


----------



## Ganderson

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> With processing off, the time alignment is defeated. If your speakers are in the doors, then the PLD places vocal frequencies out of phase without TA. With TA, those frequencies are back in phase. Sounds to me like the polarity was correct before (if your midrange speakers are in the doors).


Well F me. Mids ARE in the doors and it appears that you are correct.

:blush:

Much better now.

THANK YOU


----------



## Lorin

quick question off the cuff: I believe that it is critical to run the sub channel off of channel 7 OR 8? Am I correct in assuming that you only use ONE of the channels? I sure hope so, as I am hoping to use 7 for my center and 8 for my sub. Please correct me if I have this wrong.


----------



## kaigoss69

Lorin said:


> quick question off the cuff: I believe that it is critical to run the sub channel off of channel 7 OR 8? Am I correct in assuming that you only use ONE of the channels? I sure hope so, as I am hoping to use 7 for my center and 8 for my sub. Please correct me if I have this wrong.


Bueller..........Bueller?

Did you skip class yesterday? - CH 7&8 are ONLY important for the INPUTS, not the outputs. You can map the outputs however you like. Also, you only need one channel for the sub, unless you are running them in stereo.


----------



## Lorin

LOL, I didnt skip class, just took in way too much information over the last month on this thread. I have actually (over time) read every page of this beast! That said, thank you for the answer. My inputs are simple: channel one is speaker level left, channel two is speaker level right. Thanks again for the clarification, and the humor.


----------



## pionkej

Lorin said:


> quick question off the cuff: I believe that it is critical to run the sub channel off of channel 7 OR 8? Am I correct in assuming that you only use ONE of the channels? I sure hope so, as I am hoping to use 7 for my center and 8 for my sub. Please correct me if I have this wrong.


Yes, that's what I'm doing.

1-2 Midrange (ext amp)
3-4 Tweeter (MS8)
5-6 Rear-fill (MS8)
7 Center (ext amp)
8 Subs (ext amp)

Just make sure when you go through the setup, even if you have two subs, you set it to (1) sub.


----------



## thehatedguy

Inching XO points up on everything...rears up from 80 to 100. Fronts and center up to 70 from 60.


----------



## an2ny888

why does the ms8 insist on reducing my midbass?! i tried calibrating 5 times tonite, and the midbass is always better when i turn processing off. So frustrating


----------



## vrdublu

^^^^That horse has been flogged to death by now?^^^^^^^^^^

On a side note, my sub is sent out for repairs so in the mean time I wil be running a true 3-way. Anyone have any suggestions for a good HP point for the mid-bass? I'm running Mach5audio MLI-65's in the doors. Thanks for any input.


----------



## kaigoss69

vrdublu said:


> ^^^^That horse has been flogged to death by now?^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> On a side note, my sub is sent out for repairs so in the mean time I wil be running a true 3-way. Anyone have any suggestions for a good HP point for the mid-bass? I'm running Mach5audio MLI-65's in the doors. Thanks for any input.


Eh, perhaps cross it over at the bottom of the driver's published FR?


----------



## minbari

kaigoss69 said:


> Eh, perhaps cross it over at the bottom of the driver's published FR?


FR and what the driver will play in real life are often two different things. lots of tweeters have a FR that goes down to 900hz. try running them there.


----------



## subwoofery

minbari said:


> FR and what the driver will play in real life are often two different things. lots of tweeters have a FR that goes down to 900hz. try running them there.


I'm sure you know that he meant around the -3dB point which is "acceptable" for midbass use... 

Kelvin


----------



## taibanl

an2ny888 said:


> why does the ms8 insist on reducing my midbass?! i tried calibrating 5 times tonite, and the midbass is always better when i turn processing off. So frustrating


curious: are you running a sub?


----------



## pionkej

minbari said:


> FR and what the driver will play in real life are often two different things. lots of tweeters have a FR that goes down to 900hz. try running them there.


That's generally the FS (resonant frequency) of the driver and not the FR (frequency response). You will find that most tweeters say something like 3.5khz+ which follows the general rule of thumb to run your tweeters at 2x the FS (since LOTS of tweeters have an FS of 1400-1500).

The Morel Piccolo has an FS around 800-900hz and many people cross those at 1.8-2khz (which still follows the same rule).


----------



## taibanl

pionkej said:


> That's generally the FS (resonant frequency) of the driver and not the FR (frequency response). You will find that most tweeters say something like 3.5khz+ which follows the general rule of thumb to run your tweeters at 2x the FS (since LOTS of tweeters have an FS of 1400-1500).
> 
> The Morel Piccolo has an FS around 800-900hz and many people cross those at 1.8-2khz (which still follows the same rule).


So looking at the SSMB8's FS; where would you cross it (you said 80 on the last page, still stick by it?)

SPL 1W/1M - 88.0
Displacement cuin - 30.2
Revc - 3.81
VC inductance, mH - 0.58
Sd, SqM - 0.0214
BL - 6.694
Vas duft - .95
Mms, gms - 26.4
Fs - 48.1
Qms - 8.462
Qes - 0.679
Qts - 0.628
Pmax, watts - 175
Xmax, mm - 3.85


----------



## kaigoss69

You guys are mixing up tweeters and midbasses. The guy asked for the HP for his midbass drivers. If the published FR of the set is 70 - 20,000 Hz, for example, what's wrong with using 70Hz while his sub is being worked on? Don't make this too complicated....


----------



## pionkej

taibanl said:


> So looking at the SSMB8's FS; where would you cross it (you said 80 on the last page, still stick by it?)
> 
> SPL 1W/1M - 88.0
> Displacement cuin - 30.2
> Revc - 3.81
> VC inductance, mH - 0.58
> Sd, SqM - 0.0214
> BL - 6.694
> Vas duft - .95
> Mms, gms - 26.4
> Fs - 48.1
> Qms - 8.462
> Qes - 0.679
> Qts - 0.628
> Pmax, watts - 175
> Xmax, mm - 3.85


Yes, I would. That's the beauty of the MS8 though, try [email protected] and turn the volume lower than you have been doing it. See what happens. If you still have weak midbass, keep everything same and turn the gain down on the amp (just re-run the EQ and not the entire setup process). Repeat turning the sub gain down in small amounts till it fixes the midbass/sub issue.

After you have that dialed in, you know you sub gain point and volume level for auto-EQ. If you think you aren't getting as much out of your 8's as you can, keep everything else the same and just keep lowering the crossover point until you are happy.

Just to note, I am matching my subs with 5.25's up front and have them crossed at [email protected] I have no issues with lack of midbass or the illusion of the bass coming from the front.


----------



## pionkej

kaigoss69 said:


> You guys are mixing up tweeters and midbasses. The guy asked for the HP for his midbass drivers. If the published FR of the set is 70 - 20,000 Hz, for example, what's wrong with using 70Hz while his sub is being worked on? Don't make this too complicated....


You are right, what you're referencing is FR (frequency response). What minibar was talking about was FS (resonant frequency) and used tweeters as an example because FS is usually much lower than you should ask it to play. I was pointing that out and saying it was a bad example so other, future readers, didn't misunderstand.

I would like to point out though that sometimes you can go considerably lower than the manufacturers recommended low end (because they test with tones and music ISN'T tones) and sometimes it needs to be crossed higher (because they run the speakers ragged just to show it CAN play that low and look impressive). Try a safe starting point, let your ears judge how far you can take it down, and stop there.


----------



## pionkej

pionkej said:


> You are right, what you're referencing is FR (frequency response). What minibar was talking about was FS (resonant frequency) and used tweeters as an example because FS is usually much lower than you should ask it to play. I was pointing that out and saying it was a bad example so other, future readers, didn't misunderstand.
> 
> I would like to point out though that sometimes you can go considerably lower than the manufacturers recommended low end (because they test with tones and music ISN'T tones) and sometimes it needs to be crossed higher (because they run the speakers ragged just to show it CAN play that low and look impressive). Try a safe starting point, let your ears judge how far you can take it down, and stop there.


Quoting myself for an example. 

My Alpine SPX-13pro's that I'm using up front list power handling as 8-80w and FR as 40-60khz! In my kicks I pushed the Alpine's beyond their limits on a 75w amp crossed at [email protected] And I GUARANTEE that amp wasn't putting out 75w either when I was testing it. Bumped it to 100hz...perfect.


----------



## rage-wrx

Hoping to pick up one of these myself.


----------



## an2ny888

taibanl, yes im using a sub, its a powered alpine sub. im running everything else ( front tweets, front midbass, rear coax ) off the ms8 internal amps. i've calibrated at various volumes, lowered and increased sub gain, checked polarities, nothing seems to do the trick


----------



## 14642

an2ny888 said:


> taibanl, yes im using a sub, its a powered alpine sub. im running everything else ( front tweets, front midbass, rear coax ) off the ms8 internal amps. i've calibrated at various volumes, lowered and increased sub gain, checked polarities, nothing seems to do the trick


Maybe you've already posted this, butI can't find it. What crossover points and slopes have you chosen and what crossover setting have you used on the Alpine sub?


----------



## Salami

Andy


I really want to add a center channel but there is no room in the dash. Only place I can add a decent size center is in the center console. Thinking of a fiberglass enclosure where the cup holder area is.


In your opinion would it be worth the work or should I just enjoy it how it is?

This is not my car but to show the area:


----------



## radarcontact

Ok, got,everything installed...woo-hoo! Pic, if anyone cares:









Been messing with some different settings to try to get a little more punch from it. Two quick questions...

1) When I get to the *OUTPUT DIAGNOSTICS* section, I hear the SUB along with the other speaker(s) when it is cycling through Front Left and Front Right, I think it's there with the rears also...but I don't hear anything when it's on SUB. Should I?

(this has probably been asked a million times, but I couldn't find it very easily)
2) I want more bass from my sub. I had it before with ~350w, now I've got closer to 400w _(so not less power)_
I turned the SUB LEVEL to max. I have the BASS turned up to about 66%. It's good, but seems like I shouldn't have all maxed and cranked. Should I increase or decrease the gain at the sub or mains and recalibrate? You guys have done all this before, so I'm hoping for the quick route! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## an2ny888

im currently using 80 hz (24 slope), but i've also done 70 and 60 for the sub low and hi pass. tweets are crossed over at 4k, while rear coax are passed at 100 hz


----------



## Frank Drebin

radarcontact said:


> Ok, got,everything installed...woo-hoo! Pic, if anyone cares:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Been messing with some different settings to try to get a little more punch from it. Two quick questions...
> 
> 1) When I get to the *OUTPUT DIAGNOSTICS* section, I hear the SUB along with the other speaker(s) when it is cycling through Front Left and Front Right, I think it's there with the rears also...but I don't hear anything when it's on SUB. Should I?
> 
> (this has probably been asked a million times, but I couldn't find it very easily)
> 2) I want more bass from my sub. I had it before with ~350w, now I've got closer to 400w _(so not less power)_
> I turned the SUB LEVEL to max. I have the BASS turned up to about 66%. It's good, but seems like I shouldn't have all maxed and cranked. Should I increase or decrease the gain at the sub or mains and recalibrate? You guys have done all this before, so I'm hoping for the quick route!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Decrease gains on sub channel
Calibrate
Increase gains on sub channel
Increase graphic EQ levels below Sub crossover point (80, 63 Hz, etc)
Max subwoofer level on MS8

Worked for me

Edit: I barely, barely hear my IDQ and it's in the cabin. I'm sure if you crawled into the trunk you could hear it. 12"V3 D4 off JL500/1. Tonnes of output.


----------



## radarcontact

Frank Drebin said:


> Decrease gains on sub channel
> Calibrate
> Increase gains on sub channel
> Increase graphic EQ levels below Sub crossover point (80, 63 Hz, etc)
> Max subwoofer level on MS8
> 
> Worked for me
> 
> Edit: I barely, barely hear my IDQ and it's in the cabin. I'm sure if you crawled into the trunk you could hear it. 12"V3 D4 off JL500/1. Tonnes of output.


I'm confused..."worked for me" followed by "Edit: I barely, barely hear my IDQ" followed by "Tonnes of output" (as in tons of output, typo, I assume).  

So which is it? Lol


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Frank Drebin

radarcontact said:


> I'm confused..."worked for me" followed by "Edit: I barely, barely hear my IDQ" followed by "Tonnes of output" (as in tons of output, typo, I assume).
> 
> So which is it? Lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


During the test tones (to make sure your outputs are configured correctly), not the volume sweeps, the sub volume is very low. I can barely hear it during the test tones unless the gain is turned up. The sound is different, it is a static noise compared to the electronic noise you hear during the volume sweeps. During the volume sweeps I can hear the sub but it's not loud. Louder than the test tones, but still not loud.

When I adjust the gain down on the sub amp, do the volume sweeps then readjust the sub amp gain I get tonnes of output, as in tonnes. (google it)


----------



## radarcontact

I did, my ignorance! Never heard of tonnes, and I have a decent vocab. Thanks! I love learning new things.

And thanks for the info, I'll have to do that and see what happens. A little disappointed right now to be completely honest.

But I have faith!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## bmxscion

My sub (RF HE2 D4 12") is very loud with my MS-8. I have my gain on my amp all the way down and the sub gain on the MS-8 all the way down as well. I use the bass knob to tailor it on the fly depending on what kind of music is playing. It is deep and smooth and sounds good. I am waiting for a Sundown SD-2 12" to get here and I am going to see how that sounds in a new enclosure and slightly different install than what is there currently.


----------



## 14642

radarcontact said:


> Ok, got,everything installed...woo-hoo! Pic, if anyone cares:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Been messing with some different settings to try to get a little more punch from it. Two quick questions...
> 
> 1) When I get to the *OUTPUT DIAGNOSTICS* section, I hear the SUB along with the other speaker(s) when it is cycling through Front Left and Front Right, I think it's there with the rears also...but I don't hear anything when it's on SUB. Should I?
> 
> (this has probably been asked a million times, but I couldn't find it very easily)
> 2) I want more bass from my sub. I had it before with ~350w, now I've got closer to 400w _(so not less power)_
> I turned the SUB LEVEL to max. I have the BASS turned up to about 66%. It's good, but seems like I shouldn't have all maxed and cranked. Should I increase or decrease the gain at the sub or mains and recalibrate? You guys have done all this before, so I'm hoping for the quick route!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


this isn't correct you should only hear the sub when the noise is sent to the channel that's connected to the sub amp channel. that's looks like a 5 channel amp in the trunk. Please check the amplifier to be sure that the switch that tells the amplifier where the sub channel should get its signal is set. My guess is that the amp is configured to send the signal from the front/rear inputs to the sub channel.


----------



## radarcontact

Thanks Andy, the sub DOES have a switch exactly like that, but I thought I had it in the right position. I'll recheck it's "status". Maybe I'll even try it opposite of what it is now, regardless, in case it's marked wrong. Do I sart from scratch with setup and calibration?

Thank you, Sir!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Tony2006

Hi can someone please help me. I been tuning my ms-8 for over a week now. Can someone please tell me step by step on how to tune this. My setup is double din alpine hu, focal 165vb, jl audio hd600/4. I'm running active front stage only. Tweeters are hooked up to my front channel and miss or on my rear channel. I don't know where my gain on the amp should be at before I do the calibration. I did exactly what the ms-8 install manual said. Everything sounds good accept for when I listen to songs with high vocals on high volume I get clipped on my mids. Any other sogs I can go as high as I want. Can someone please help me.

Current setting or 60hz/12db hi pass and 4,700hz miss/lo

Thanks guys..


----------



## Tony2006

Sorry for the miss types. Auto correction sucks on my tablet.


----------



## 14642

Tony2006 said:


> Hi can someone please help me. I been tuning my ms-8 for over a week now. Can someone please tell me step by step on how to tune this. My setup is double din alpine hu, focal 165vb, jl audio hd600/4. I'm running active front stage only. Tweeters are hooked up to my front channel and miss or on my rear channel. I don't know where my gain on the amp should be at before I do the calibration. I did exactly what the ms-8 install manual said. Everything sounds good accept for when I listen to songs with high vocals on high volume I get clipped on my mids. Any other sogs I can go as high as I want. Can someone please help me.
> 
> Current setting or 60hz/12db hi pass and 4,700hz miss/lo
> 
> Thanks guys..


Don't worry about the typing.

1. Connect the outputs that go to the amp channels that run the tweeters to channels 1 and 2.
2. Connect the amp channels that go to the mids to ouptut channels 3 and 4.
3. Switch the little input switch on the amplifiers to "low" and turn the sensitivity (gain) controls all the way down.
4. Connect the output of the head unit to input channels 1 and 2.
5. Choose "skip input setup" since you have an aftermarket head. 
6. In the setup menu, configure the front as 2-way, choose "none" for sub, center, sides and rears
7. Select your crosover points (the ones you've selected are fine).
8. When you get to "acoustic calibraton" and MS-8's volume control pops up, set it to -35 and go. 
9. once you've run calibration in all the seats (or just the driver's seat, if that's what you want to do) select "done" and MS-8 will do its work.
10. When all of that is done, turn MS-8's volume control to about -6 or -9.
11. Use the head unit's volume control to adjust the volume. Or you can turn ms-8's volume control down to -40 or so and turn up the head unit's volume control until you hear a little distortion and then turn it back down a little bit until the distortion goes away. Leave the head unit's volume control where it is and use MS-8's volume control.

Feel free to use the 31-band EQ to make additional adjustments if you need to. Use the Subwoofer level control in the audio controls menu to adjust the amount of bass in the system. It works even when there's no sub connected.


----------



## Tony2006

Thanks Andy.. I will try it and let you know how it goes.


----------



## radarcontact

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> "...It works even when there's no sub connected."


Andy, what does? Are you saying to bypass the sub for some reason during setup/tweaking, or just that the MS-8 system works better in audio systems that don't already have big, additional subwoofers, i.e. vanilla OEM setups?




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 14642

radarcontact said:


> Andy, what does? Are you saying to bypass the sub for some reason during setup/tweaking, or just that the MS-8 system works better in audio systems that don't already have big, additional subwoofers, i.e. vanilla OEM setups?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


No, I'm saying that the subwoofer level control isn't a gain contro for the channel that's conencted to the sub amp. It's a shelf filter that's applied to all the channels through the crossover. It boosts below 60 Hz, but never above 160Hz, so the slope of the shelf changes with boost amplitude. It's cool because when you boost the bass, it applies the right amount of midbass to the rest of the speakers to keep the illusion of bass in front, if you've managed to achieve that. 

It also works without a sub, since it's applied to all channels. Let's say you had a Porsche 911 and the biggest speaker you could fit in the car was an 8" in the doors. With this control, the 8" can be a subwoofer and a midbass/midrange (to a point). 

When I tell people to set the car up initially without a sub, I'm usually trying to figure out if the imaging or the EQ is bad because they have the sub turned up too loud. The next step, once the image is good and the frequency response seems right, is to add the sub and tune calibrate at the level at which the setter-upper was successful without the sub.


----------



## radarcontact

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> this isn't correct you should only hear the sub when the noise is sent to the channel that's connected to the sub amp channel. that's looks like a 5 channel amp in the trunk. Please check the amplifier to be sure that the switch that tells the amplifier where the sub channel should get its signal is set. My guess is that the amp is configured to send the signal from the front/rear inputs to the sub channel.


ANDY! I _would_ tell you that you are a genius, but that was probably confirmed when you were 12!! It WAS that damn button, and you know, because I was so sure that I checked it first (I did), that it would never have dawned on me to recheck it. First I dialed-in all the settings, then I hooked it up; I must have hit the button by accident while physically installing the amp.

The system sounds frikkin' unbelievable now! Wow! I am a happy SOB!

THANK YOU!

P.s.
I never even knew there was an audio sweep during the calibration process...never heard it before making the correction.


----------



## radarcontact

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, I'm saying that the subwoofer level control isn't a gain contro for the channel that's conencted to the sub amp. It's a shelf filter that's applied to all the channels through the crossover. It boosts below 60 Hz, but never above 160Hz, so the slope of the shelf changes with boost amplitude. It's cool because when you boost the bass, it applies the right amount of midbass to the rest of the speakers to keep the illusion of bass in front, if you've managed to achieve that.
> 
> It also works without a sub, since it's applied to all channels. Let's say you had a Porsche 911 and the biggest speaker you could fit in the car was an 8" in the doors. With this control, the 8" can be a subwoofer and a midbass/midrange (to a point).
> 
> When I tell people to set the car up initially without a sub, I'm usually trying to figure out if the imaging or the EQ is bad because they have the sub turned up too loud. The next step, once the image is good and the frequency response seems right, is to add the sub and tune calibrate at the level at which the setter-upper was successful without the sub.


Gotcha! Well, I don't think I am going to be doing too much tweaking, it really sounds fantastic compared to before (and it sounded pretty good before)! Great product, and great support from you on this forum!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 14642

radarcontact said:


> ANDY! I _would_ tell you that you are a genius, but that was probably confirmed when you were 12!!


No, I'm no genius, but I have been doing this for a really long time. I'm glad it sounds good!


----------



## Frank Drebin

*Turn off pop*

*Factory amp turn off pop*

I'm not sure whether it's better to create a new thread like everyone else, or to post it in this megathread. If I don't get a lot of replies here I guess I'll have to create a new thread.

I'm running the MS8 off a factory head unit, speaker leads are tapped off the outlet of the factory amp. (2011 Dodge Ram). The factory amp makes a loud pop thru the amps when it is shut off. I know it is coming from the factory amp because I've tried physically disconnecting the remote wire to the MS8 and the system shuts down without noise.

I'm thinking what I need to do is to install a turn off delay relay (PAC TR7?) to delay the shut off of the factory amp till after the MS8 and stereo shuts off? Just a brief delay of about 5 seconds or so. Am I on the right track here or is there an easier way.

I can't have the factory amp turned on by the MS8 because the the MS8 is the first to start up and last to shut down, so my amps and factory amp would shut off at the same time, which would cause the pop again. 

I tried running the MS8 off the ACC because I have a time delay on the stereo (stays on after the key is off for 45 secs) , this would work except when I shut the truck off with a front door open, which then the stereo immediately shuts off with the key.

Thoughts? Probably gonna pull the trigger on the TR7 tomorrow, just hoping I could get an easier solution.

Thanks!


----------



## Frank Drebin

*Rear fill*

*Rear fill location*

Unrelated to my previous question, wondering if my headliner speakers would be a better alternative to the rear fill in the MS8 instead of the rear doors.

The speakers are small, but are in the headliner about 12" behind my head. I understand logic7 creates the illusion of fill in the rear channels, wondering if it would be more effective as the headliner speakers are "behind" the listener.

I would only be able to fit a 2.5" speaker in there (dayton rs75) and I've been able to cross it over at 400 hz. May be able to get down a little lower.

Or should I just stay with the rear door fill (massive CK6). Which can easily be crossed down to 100hz or even 80.

Both would be driven off a Massive Nx2. Front Stage is 6.5" drivers in the front doors and 3.5" widebanders in the dash with a center channel (Audible physics XR Duo)

Thanks again.


----------



## taibanl

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Try "reset to factory defaults" in the settings menu before recalibrating. Use the Kaigoss deal and free-up the extra channel for the center.





pionkej said:


> Try putting the midbass/sub crossover at 24db and bumping it up a bit (start at 80 and work back down to 63).
> 
> Try 24db between midrange/midbass also (I had bad side bias show up when I tried an 18db slope).
> 
> If the sub is already pretty closely level matched to everything, try running the whole setup at a lower volume. I set the MS8 to -40 per recommendations. I set my Alpine h/u at 10 (it goes to 35). After I did that, it sounded perfect. I use 27 as my max unclipped volume at the HU and turned the MS8 up until I heard distortion from the speakers (for me that was -9) and clicked it back down a couple steps (-11). You should be able to overpower the sweeps with a normal speaking voice, they need to be quiet or you will have problems every time.
> 
> Hope that helps.


Thanks guys, partial success!

I finally was able to calibrate in a quiet garage for the first time. I realized I could still feel the sub in my lower back @ -40, I was still able to barely hear it for the sweeps @ -45 so I went with that. (This is a tacit acknowledgement that I've been unknowingly fighting the system).

For the most part I have better blended midbass and bass (still yet to do the kaigoss mod), although still a bit muddy/boomy down low. The best demo of this was Nirvana's "sliver." A very simple rolling bass line that rolls from tight, punch and up front on the C (~65hz) note to boomy, and muddy on the F (~44hz). I found this interesting since both would appear to be well below the cross point recommended to me above. 

Any recommendations?

Other issues with the unit, yet to be resolved
1) Processor induced noise (sounds like my MS-8 is transmitting something for SETI research), it goes away when I reset or recalibrate but comes back on once the MS-8 comes online again.
2) Popping, tried various delay settings.
3) A new issue, it randomly shuts down on me, I don't "think" it's heat related since its getting fairly cool now and hasn't happened before, but who knows. I have to power cycle the car to get it to come back online.


----------



## 14642

*Re: Turn off pop*



Frank Drebin said:


> *Factory amp turn off pop*
> 
> I'm not sure whether it's better to create a new thread like everyone else, or to post it in this megathread. If I don't get a lot of replies here I guess I'll have to create a new thread.
> 
> I'm running the MS8 off a factory head unit, speaker leads are tapped off the outlet of the factory amp. (2011 Dodge Ram). The factory amp makes a loud pop thru the amps when it is shut off. I know it is coming from the factory amp because I've tried physically disconnecting the remote wire to the MS8 and the system shuts down without noise.
> 
> I'm thinking what I need to do is to install a turn off delay relay (PAC TR7?) to delay the shut off of the factory amp till after the MS8 and stereo shuts off? Just a brief delay of about 5 seconds or so. Am I on the right track here or is there an easier way.
> 
> I can't have the factory amp turned on by the MS8 because the the MS8 is the first to start up and last to shut down, so my amps and factory amp would shut off at the same time, which would cause the pop again.
> 
> I tried running the MS8 off the ACC because I have a time delay on the stereo (stays on after the key is off for 45 secs) , this would work except when I shut the truck off with a front door open, which then the stereo immediately shuts off with the key.
> 
> Thoughts? Probably gonna pull the trigger on the TR7 tomorrow, just hoping I could get an easier solution.
> 
> Thanks!


I'd try hooking up the MS-8 as it says in the manual--have it turn the factory amp on and off. Seems easy enough to try before "pulling the trigger".


----------



## 14642

*Re: Rear fill*



Frank Drebin said:


> *Rear fill location*
> 
> Unrelated to my previous question, wondering if my headliner speakers would be a better alternative to the rear fill in the MS8 instead of the rear doors.
> 
> The speakers are small, but are in the headliner about 12" behind my head. I understand logic7 creates the illusion of fill in the rear channels, wondering if it would be more effective as the headliner speakers are "behind" the listener.
> 
> I would only be able to fit a 2.5" speaker in there (dayton rs75) and I've been able to cross it over at 400 hz. May be able to get down a little lower.
> 
> Or should I just stay with the rear door fill (massive CK6). Which can easily be crossed down to 100hz or even 80.
> 
> Both would be driven off a Massive Nx2. Front Stage is 6.5" drivers in the front doors and 3.5" widebanders in the dash with a center channel (Audible physics XR Duo)
> 
> Thanks again.


Both have their pros and cons. Con of the headliner speakers is that they're really small. Con of the doro speakers is that they're really low. I'd just put a tweeter in the top of the back doors and use the back doors.


----------



## Frank Drebin

*Re: Turn off pop*



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'd try hooking up the MS-8 as it says in the manual--have it turn the factory amp on and off. Seems easy enough to try before "pulling the trigger".


Yeah it seems easy enough to try, I'm skeptical that it would work but you've proven many times to be correct so I'll just do as you say.


----------



## kaigoss69

taibanl said:


> Thanks guys, partial success!
> 
> I finally was able to calibrate in a quiet garage for the first time. I realized I could still feel the sub in my lower back @ -40, I was still able to barely hear it for the sweeps @ -45 so I went with that. (This is a tacit acknowledgement that I've been unknowingly fighting the system).
> 
> For the most part I have better blended midbass and bass (still yet to do the kaigoss mod), although still a bit muddy/boomy down low. The best demo of this was Nirvana's "sliver." A very simple rolling bass line that rolls from tight, punch and up front on the C (~65hz) note to boomy, and muddy on the F (~44hz). I found this interesting since both would appear to be well below the cross point recommended to me above.
> 
> Any recommendations?
> 
> *Other issues with the unit, yet to be resolved
> 1) Processor induced noise (sounds like my MS-8 is transmitting something for SETI research), it goes away when I reset or recalibrate but comes back on once the MS-8 comes online again.
> 2) Popping, tried various delay settings.
> 3) A new issue, it randomly shuts down on me, I don't "think" it's heat related since its getting fairly cool now and hasn't happened before, but who knows. I have to power cycle the car to get it to come back online.*


1 & 3 sounds like it may be a bad unit...

2, the popping, is what I have learned to live with. It must be something coming from the L7 amp that the processor doesn't like. It happens 1) a few seconds after unlocking the car (can be defeated with 5 sec turn-on delay), 2) upon starting the car (not always, but sometimes), 3) about 10 sec after locking the car or after shutting the last door. Have not found any remedy besides habitually turning the MS-8 volume down by about -30dB before I get out of the car and back up after I have started the engine.

Andy, waaay back you said you were going to look into the issue. I can tell you that pretty much everybody who has the MS-8 hooked up to the BMW L7 amp hi-level outputs has this problem.


----------



## musicfan

I am now getting the runaway "jet engine" feedback *with the mic unplugged*. Yesterday I finally got my first really good calibration; I sat in the car enjoying it for 20 minutes or so, then later in the day, I showed it off to a friend for another 20 minutes or so. Today, my wife was driving, and I was in the passenger’s seat; about an hour into the drive, I was adjusting something on the MS-8 (seat setting, I believe) and the runaway noise started. Having experienced it before, I knew to shut off the head unit, but this is very hard to remember when you are being assaulted with noise at the absolute maximum SPL output of your system. Even if I think quickly, it takes several terrifying seconds to shut down my head unit. (I can't even begin to tell you how dangerous it is when this happens while you are driving and what a huge setback it is when it happens when _your wife _is driving... "Tell me again, Honey, why you bought a car with a top-of-the-line sound system option, then spent five months and nearly $4,000 replacing that perfectly good sound system with another one THAT TRIES TO KILL US???)

After we got back home I did some troubleshooting: I checked to make sure nothing was plugged in to the mic jack on the MS-8 or touching the RCA inputs, then I tried turning on the head unit again. The noise came back immediately, so I shut it off again. I tried unplugging the RCA cables on the input side of the MS-8 (the ones coming from head unit) and turning it back on. Runaway noise again. I tried hitting the mute button on the MS-8 remote, and the noise stopped. I don’t remember the exact sequence of things, but I think I tried turning the MS-8 volume all the way down and un-muting, but even at -80 the noise was still at full volume, at least through one speaker. I’m sorry I can’t be more certain about the details, but it’s hard to listen critically and take detailed notes when it sounds like your speakers are about to rip themselves to shreds. However, I do distinctly remember seeing -80 on the display while experiencing this terrifying sound from the speaker nearest my head.

Hopefully, Andy or someone here can help me understand why this is happening. I really hope it is some embarrassingly stupid thing I’ve done that can be fixed definitively. 

Here are all the details I can think of to include about my installation and my most recent calibration:

*Installation*

*Vehicle: * 2010 Prius, Package V, originally equipped with 8-speaker JBL Nav 

*Head unit*: Alpine INA-w910 (flat signal output, no clipping through volume=31.)

*MS-8: *

Installed under driver seat
Input: Front RCA outs of HU on RCA inputs 1&2
Outputs: RCA outs 1-6 go to front amp, RCA outs 7&8 go to sub amp
AUX input and speaker-level harnesses are not connected.
Power connections detailed below.

*Front Amp:* JL Audio XD600/6, mounted under the passenger seat, configured in 6-channel mode (Input range is 100mV-4V RMS. There are no markings or detents on the gain pots, but the positions are indicated below, with 7:00 o’clock being all the way down and 5:00 o’clock being all the way up.)

Channels 1/2: Gain=11:00, HPF at 49hz, Speakers: HAT L3SE mounted in factory dashboard positions
Channels 3/4: Gain=10:30, All pass, Speakers: Dayton RS-180-4 mounted in front doors 
Channels 5/6: Gain=10:00, All pass, Speakers 2" OEM JBL mid-tweeters (2 ohm) in upper rear doors

*Sub Amp:* Boston Acoustics GTA-400m mounted in rear cargo tray, Input range 2V-5V, gain set to 2V

*Sub:* JL Audio CP108LG-W3v3 (compact slot-ported enclosure with one 8" W3v3 driver) in rear cargo area. 

Tuning frequency of box: 35hz 
Rated frequency response: 28-250hz

*12v Power Details: * (FYI, the Prius 12v battery is behind the right rear wheel well.) 

I have one 4ga positive power wire running from the battery to the sub amp and another 4ga power wire running from the battery to the front amp. I have an 8ga positive power wire running from the front amp's power block to the MS-8. 
The sub amp is grounded through a 4ga wire to the same chassis ground point as the battery. The front amp is grounded through a very short 4ga wire to the chassis brace underneath the passenger seat, within about 2” of the amp. The MS-8 is grounded through a very short 8ga wire to the chassis brace underneath the driver seat, within about 2” of the MS-8. 
The turn on leads run from the HU output to the MS-8 REM IN, then from the MS-8 REM OUT to the front amp and sub amp.
All RCA cables are UTP and are run as closely to the chassis as possible and as far away from power wires as possible.
The power is run a little differently than the manual instructs, but (except for today’s problem) I have not had any perceptible noise from the system.

*Current Configuration/Calibration*

Input Setup: Skip
Sub1&2: HPF 35hz, 6db/octave, Sub/Midbass crossover: 80hz, 24db/octave
2-way front: Midbass/Midtweet crossover: 400hz, 24db/octave
1-way sides: HPF 200hz, 24db/octave 
Sweeps run at volume -30 (SPL ~55-65db), all four seating positions measured

*Info from MS-8 “About” Screen:*

Main: 3.96
DSP: 1.3
Display: 3.38 base code
Strings: 1.39


----------



## taibanl

kaigoss69 said:


> 1 & 3 sounds like it may be a bad unit...
> 
> 2, the popping, is what I have learned to live with. It must be something coming from the L7 amp that the processor doesn't like. It happens 1) a few seconds after unlocking the car (can be defeated with 5 sec turn-on delay), 2) upon starting the car (not always, but sometimes), 3) about 10 sec after locking the car or after shutting the last door. Have not found any remedy besides habitually turning the MS-8 volume down by about -30dB before I get out of the car and back up after I have started the engine.
> 
> Andy, waaay back you said you were going to look into the issue. I can tell you that pretty much everybody who has the MS-8 hooked up to the BMW L7 amp hi-level outputs has this problem.


Kai,

I have the BASE/STEREO Head Unit,

Thank you for your replies, I will see what Andy thinks also. I would hate to have to reinstall this thing!


----------



## kaigoss69

taibanl said:


> Kai,
> 
> I have the BASE/STEREO Head Unit,
> 
> Thank you for your replies, I will see what Andy thinks also. I would hate to have to reinstall this thing!


OK, I see. Are you then using the speaker-level outputs of the head units or did you recode to Hifi (flat, unprocessed, balanced)? - Technic claims that his customers did not have any popping after recoding to Hifi...

I wonder then what it is in the speaker level output that is making the MS-8 pop, but obviously not the OEM speakers?


----------



## Tony2006

Thanks Andy. I tried what you said and it got alot better but i still get a slight clip even after i played with the EQ. Im starting to guess that im at the max point for these Focal 165vb. Correct me if im wrong but it seems like the VB's can't take high frequency at 1k -4k hz. If someone can point me to the direction for some SQ components under $600 that can handle high vocals on the 1k-4k frequency range i would really apperciate it. And if im wrong about these Focal please give me advice. This is acutally my first set of Focal's. 

Thanks ahead.


----------



## kkant

Tony2006 said:


> If someone can point me to the direction for some SQ components under $600 that can handle high vocals on the 1k-4k frequency range i would really apperciate it.


Dayton RS52. Smoothest 1k-4k I've heard. $40 each.


----------



## subwoofery

Tony2006 said:


> Thanks Andy. I tried what you said and it got alot better but i still get a slight clip even after i played with the EQ. Im starting to guess that im at the max point for these Focal 165vb. Correct me if im wrong but it seems like the VB's can't take high frequency at 1k -4k hz. If someone can point me to the direction for some SQ components under $600 that can handle high vocals on the 1k-4k frequency range i would really apperciate it. And if im wrong about these Focal please give me advice. This is acutally my first set of Focal's.
> 
> Thanks ahead.


Where are your gains set to on your amps? 2V? 
You played with your MS-8's EQ, did you boost some freqs? If yes, by how much? 
Are you using your VBs active? 

Kelvin


----------



## Frank Drebin

*Re: Rear fill*



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Both have their pros and cons. Con of the headliner speakers is that they're really small. Con of the doro speakers is that they're really low. I'd just put a tweeter in the top of the back doors and use the back doors.


I think I'm going to try the tweets in the headliner and the mids in the doors. Just to see how it sounds.


----------



## Tony2006

subwoofery said:


> Where are your gains set to on your amps? 2V?
> You played with your MS-8's EQ, did you boost some freqs? If yes, by how much?
> Are you using your VBs active?
> 
> Kelvin


i have a jl h600/4 and my gains or all the way down. i adjust the eq frequency 1k to 4khz down from flat line where it was originally after calibration. No matter how much i lower the frequemcy it still clip on my mids and high volume. From my knowledge the 1k-4k is where the high vocal frequency is. I followed Andy instructions and it got better but still clip a little. Yes im running my VB full active. I'm using my front channel for the tweeters and rear channel for my mids.


----------



## subwoofery

Tony2006 said:


> i have a jl h600/4 and my gains or all the way down. i adjust the eq frequency 1k to 4khz down from flat line where it was originally after calibration. No matter how much i lower the frequemcy it still clip on my mids and high volume. From my knowledge the 1k-4k is where the high vocal frequency is. I followed Andy instructions and it got better but still clip a little. Yes im running my VB full active. I'm using my front channel for the tweeters and rear channel for my mids.


Ok, so no boost. Good. 

I have some more questions: 
How do you control your volume? HU or MS-8? 
You sure it's the mid that's clipping and not the tweets? If you disconnect the RCA that goes to your front channels (tweets) and play your music, still getting some clipping? 
On your amp, where do you have your _input voltage_ setting at? Low I assume... Try High and set your gains around 10'clock (min is around 7'clock) and recalibrate with your MS-8. 
Also, check your _input mode_ setting so that it's in 4ch instead of 2ch... Never knows  

Kelvin


----------



## taibanl

kaigoss69 said:


> OK, I see. Are you then using the speaker-level outputs of the head units or did you recode to Hifi (flat, unprocessed, balanced)? - Technic claims that his customers did not have any popping after recoding to Hifi...
> 
> I wonder then what it is in the speaker level output that is making the MS-8 pop, but obviously not the OEM speakers?


YES - the common thread here is speaker level outs, due to my early 2011, I am unable to recode to HiFi, though I would have preferred that solution.

Technic did include a relay on his harness that is wired to MS-8 Rem in. I'm wondering if I should rewire anything?


----------



## Tony2006

subwoofery said:


> Ok, so no boost. Good.
> 
> I have some more questions:
> How do you control your volume? HU or MS-8?
> You sure it's the mid that's clipping and not the tweets? If you disconnect the RCA that goes to your front channels (tweets) and play your music, still getting some clipping?
> On your amp, where do you have your _input voltage_ setting at? Low I assume... Try High and set your gains around 10'clock (min is around 7'clock) and recalibrate with your MS-8.
> Also, check your _input mode_ setting so that it's in 4ch instead of 2ch... Never knows
> 
> Kelvin


I leave the volume on the ms-8 at -6 and use the hu for volume control. Yea I'm sure its my miss cause I put my ear right next to it. Haha.. my input voltage is at low. I'll try it on high.I have it on 4ch.


Thanks


----------



## subwoofery

Tony2006 said:


> I leave the volume on the ms-8 at -6 and use the hu for volume control. Yea I'm sure its my miss cause I put my ear right next to it. Haha.. my input voltage is at low. I'll try it on high.I have it on 4ch.
> 
> 
> Thanks


Hmm... You might be clipping the MS-8 input with a voltage to high (more than 2V) from your HU... The MS-8 only accepts 2V max. 

Ok... Leave the MS-8 volume on -6 and play the song that is clipping your Focal VB. When you play it loud, note your HU volume level (for eg. 24 out of 30). Turn the volume down on the MS-8 (let's say -20) and play the same song with your HU volume at 24. Put your ears next to the mid, hear any clipping? 

Also try with the _input voltage_ on High. 

Can't really help you more than that :blush: lol 

Last resort would be to buy another set of comp 

Kelvin


----------



## rain27

subwoofery said:


> Hmm... You might be clipping the MS-8 input with a voltage to high (more than 2V) from your HU... The MS-8 only accepts 2V max.
> 
> Ok... Leave the MS-8 volume on -6 and play the song that is clipping your Focal VB. When you play it loud, note your HU volume level (for eg. 24 out of 30). Turn the volume down on the MS-8 (let's say -20) and play the same song with your HU volume at 24. Put your ears next to the mid, hear any clipping?
> 
> Also try with the _input voltage_ on High.
> 
> Can't really help you more than that :blush: lol
> 
> Last resort would be to buy another set of comp
> 
> Kelvin


I've used many head units with high voltage with no problems. The MS-8 will only output 2.8 volts, but will accept higher and down convert it without a problem.

And to find out if the signal is clipped, you should run (Input Setup", put the calibration cd in, and play with the volume until the MS-8 shows "OK". The point at which the MS-8 shows "Noisy" is when clipping occurs. This would give you the precise way to know exactly how high you can use the head unit's volume before clipping (when setting the MS-8 volume to -6).


----------



## subwoofery

rain27 said:


> I've used many head units with high voltage with no problems. The MS-8 will only output 2.8 volts, but will accept higher and down convert it without a problem.
> 
> And to find out if the signal is clipped, you should run (Input Setup", put the calibration cd in, and play with the volume until the MS-8 shows "OK". The point at which the MS-8 shows "Noisy" is when clipping occurs. This would give you the precise way to know exactly how high you can use the head unit's volume before clipping (when setting the MS-8 volume to -6).


Yep... I thought it was 2V... Well it's 2.8V then - meaning that if the HU sends 2.8V to the MS-8, the MS-8 will output 2.8V to the amp... 
Since _Tony2006_ has his setting set to Low, he might be clipping the input of his HD amp. 

Kelvin


----------



## Tony2006

rain27 said:


> I've used many head units with high voltage with no problems. The MS-8 will only output 2.8 volts, but will accept higher and down convert it without a problem.
> 
> And to find out if the signal is clipped, you should run (Input Setup", put the calibration cd in, and play with the volume until the MS-8 shows "OK". The point at which the MS-8 shows "Noisy" is when clipping occurs. This would give you the precise way to know exactly how high you can use the head unit's volume before clipping (when setting the MS-8 volume to -6).


I have a Alpine IVA-w200 and i think i output on the head unit is 2V. Also i tried running the input setup disc and the ms-8 says signal "none". I tried turning the hu volume all the way up and down and it still says "none." I tried switching out RCA wire and that didn't do anything either.


----------



## kaigoss69

subwoofery said:


> Yep... I thought it was 2V... Well it's 2.8V then - meaning that if the HU sends 2.8V to the MS-8, the MS-8 will output 2.8V to the amp...
> Since _Tony2006_ has his setting set to Low, he might be clipping the input of his HD amp.
> 
> Kelvin


The "low" setting is what I use on the HD600 and HD900 amps. No clipping with MS-8 inputs.


----------



## kaigoss69

Tony2006 said:


> I have a Alpine IVA-w200 and i think i output on the head unit is 2V. Also i tried running the input setup disc and the ms-8 says signal "none". I tried turning the hu volume all the way up and down and it still says "none." I tried switching out RCA wire and that didn't do anything either.


The input setup procedure looks for speaker level inputs. Pre-amp inputs won't be recognized, nor should they.


----------



## Tony2006

subwoofery said:


> Yep... I thought it was 2V... Well it's 2.8V then - meaning that if the HU sends 2.8V to the MS-8, the MS-8 will output 2.8V to the amp...
> Since _Tony2006_ has his setting set to Low, he might be clipping the input of his HD amp.
> 
> Kelvin


I haven't got a chance to set my amp voltage to high yet. Been busy working  But imma try it tonight tho and let you guys know what happens. 

I really appreciate you guys help....


----------



## subwoofery

Tony2006 said:


> I have a Alpine IVA-w200 and i think i output on the head unit is 2V. Also i tried running the input setup disc and the ms-8 says signal "none". I tried turning the hu volume all the way up and down and it still says "none." I tried switching out RCA wire and that didn't do anything either.


So you tried the input setup disc? Hmm... I'm out of cartridge :blush: 

Next... 

Kelvin


----------



## Tony2006

kaigoss69 said:


> The input setup procedure looks for speaker level inputs. Pre-amp inputs won't be recognized, nor should they.


OOooo.. IC.. thats why it keep saying no input signal. But i tried for the hek of it. Andy said i didn't have to but since it still clipping a little i just tried evrything i can think of. haha


----------



## Tony2006

subwoofery said:


> So you tried the input setup disc? Hmm... I'm out of cartridge :blush:
> 
> Next...
> 
> Kelvin


Yea i tried the setup disc.


----------



## radarcontact

The MS-8 puts out 2.8V (max)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Tony2006

subwoofery said:


> Ok, so no boost. Good.
> 
> I have some more questions:
> How do you control your volume? HU or MS-8?
> You sure it's the mid that's clipping and not the tweets? If you disconnect the RCA that goes to your front channels (tweets) and play your music, still getting some clipping?
> On your amp, where do you have your _input voltage_ setting at? Low I assume... Try High and set your gains around 10'clock (min is around 7'clock) and recalibrate with your MS-8.
> Also, check your _input mode_ setting so that it's in 4ch instead of 2ch... Never knows
> 
> Kelvin


i just tried setting my input level to high like you said and it acutally made it alot worse. haha.. so i went back to how i had it the first time.


----------



## Tony2006

Am i the only one having this issue?

Anyone out there has any other suggestions before i give up on these VB's and look into some other components.


----------



## rain27

Tony2006 said:


> i just tried setting my input level to high like you said and it acutally made it alot worse. haha.. so i went back to how i had it the first time.


The High setting is not to be used with the HD amps and an aftermarket hu with rca outputs, so that is understandable.


----------



## rain27

kaigoss69 said:


> The input setup procedure looks for speaker level inputs. Pre-amp inputs won't be recognized, nor should they.


They actually are recognized for purposes of finding the max volume level precisely with the MS-8. Once you get this, you would reset and do the "skip input setup" option.


----------



## kameraguy

*Re: processor noise?*



blackknight87 said:


> I was having the problem with low end rumble, I raised the subsonic filter 10hz and it cleared up the problem. I think it was because my sub was only good to about 24hz and I originally had it at 20hz. Moved to 30hz and its crisp. no more low end rumble.
> 
> And for lack of mid bass, i also lowered my sub/front filters. I had them set around 120hz. Lowered down to 90 and gained back some mid bass. I could probably go to 80 and be good too.
> 
> Just gotta tweak with the filters. its kind of a pain that you cant set the filters on the fly, you have to go thru the whole calibration process. but oh well.



Thank you, I'll give that a shot this week and see if it sounds better.

Regarding the other issue i had with processor noise at low volume, it turned out the gains were too high on my JL 700/5 during calibration. I reduced them all way down and re-calibrated...much better, no more noise.


----------



## rain27

Tony2006 said:


> Am i the only one having this issue?
> 
> Anyone out there has any other suggestions before i give up on these VB's and look into some other components.


Try setting the gain on the HD at about 10 o'clock for front and rear. I have used the HD and with the gains all the way down, I imagine the sweeps are barely audible.

And maybe adjust the midbass so that it is not playing so high (3500 maybe).


----------



## thehatedguy

You can use the setup CD with the RCA inputs on the MS-8. It will check to make sure if the balance and fade are correct as well as the levels are right. And it helps to use the disk if you have more than one set of RCAs going to the processor from the deck...the MS-8 wouldn't recognize the inputs on 3 and 4 until I ran the disk.

I use the low inputs on my HD600/4s too. My gains for fronts, center, and rears are 10:30 ish. The sub which is more towards 2 oclock- I turn it down with the remote bass knob for normal listening and down further for calibration.


----------



## Tony2006

rain27 said:


> Try setting the gain on the HD at about 10 o'clock for front and rear. I have used the HD and with the gains all the way down, I imagine the sweeps are barely audible.
> 
> And maybe adjust the midbass so that it is not playing so high (3500 maybe).


OK I will give it try. But I did at one time had both gains at half and set my midbass at 3000 and it still clipped. But I'll try 10 O'clock and 3500 and see. Thanks


----------



## rain27

thehatedguy said:


> You can use the setup CD with the RCA inputs on the MS-8. It will check to make sure if the balance and fade are correct as well as the levels are right. And it helps to use the disk if you have more than one set of RCAs going to the processor from the deck...the MS-8 wouldn't recognize the inputs on 3 and 4 until I ran the disk.
> 
> I use the low inputs on my HD600/4s too. My gains for fronts, center, and rears are 10:30 ish. The sub which is more towards 2 oclock- I turn it down with the remote bass knob for normal listening and down further for calibration.


What HD amp are you using for your sub that's set at 2 oclock for the gain?


----------



## BuickGN

Tony2006 said:


> OOooo.. IC.. thats why it keep saying no input signal. But i tried for the hek of it. Andy said i didn't have to but since it still clipping a little i just tried evrything i can think of. haha


If the input signal is too low, the MS8 will clip. I've experienced it first hand. If I calibrate at a super low volume, I get the same distortion. Try calibration at a higher level.


----------



## Frank Drebin

*Re: Turn off pop*



Frank Drebin said:


> *Factory amp turn off pop*
> 
> I'm not sure whether it's better to create a new thread like everyone else, or to post it in this megathread. If I don't get a lot of replies here I guess I'll have to create a new thread.
> 
> I'm running the MS8 off a factory head unit, speaker leads are tapped off the outlet of the factory amp. (2011 Dodge Ram). The factory amp makes a loud pop thru the amps when it is shut off. I know it is coming from the factory amp because I've tried physically disconnecting the remote wire to the MS8 and the system shuts down without noise.
> 
> I'm thinking what I need to do is to install a turn off delay relay (PAC TR7?) to delay the shut off of the factory amp till after the MS8 and stereo shuts off? Just a brief delay of about 5 seconds or so. Am I on the right track here or is there an easier way.
> 
> I can't have the factory amp turned on by the MS8 because the the MS8 is the first to start up and last to shut down, so my amps and factory amp would shut off at the same time, which would cause the pop again.
> 
> I tried running the MS8 off the ACC because I have a time delay on the stereo (stays on after the key is off for 45 secs) , this would work except when I shut the truck off with a front door open, which then the stereo immediately shuts off with the key.
> 
> Thoughts? Probably gonna pull the trigger on the TR7 tomorrow, just hoping I could get an easier solution.
> 
> Thanks!


Well, I wired the MS8 remote in off the "Key ON" not ACC feed, and it seems to have stopped the problem. I will try the ACC feed but I think the issue was the remote out from the lockpick that was causing the turn off pop issues. Perhaps a fraction of a second slower signal than the actual turn off signal from the factory amp?



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'd try hooking up the MS-8 as it says in the manual--have it turn the factory amp on and off. Seems easy enough to try before "pulling the trigger".


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> The input setup procedure looks for speaker level inputs. Pre-amp inputs won't be recognized, nor should they.


Nope. This isn't true. MS-8 doesn't know the difference between speaker level and line level. It looks for anything on any of the inputs. That means you could use a combination of speaker and line level inputs, so long as you only use one input type per channel. For example, you can't plug something into the RCA for input 1 and also connect something to the speaker input of channel 1.

Choosing "Skip input setup" connects inputs 1 and 2, (speaker or line level) to the input of the DSP and disconnects the other inputs and skips the input EQ. If you know you have a reasonably flat 2-channel signal, there's no need for input signal "conditioning".


----------



## 14642

BuickGN said:


> If the input signal is too low, the MS8 will clip. I've experienced it first hand. If I calibrate at a super low volume, I get the same distortion. Try calibration at a higher level.


Good tip.


----------



## rain27

BuickGN said:


> If the input signal is too low, the MS8 will clip. I've experienced it first hand. If I calibrate at a super low volume, I get the same distortion. Try calibration at a higher level.


Are you talking about the volume level of the head unit during calibration?


----------



## 14642

The volume of the head unit has no effect on acoustic calibration. the sweeps are generated in the MS-8.


----------



## Problemhouston

My local shop wants to charge me $250+ to install a sub amp that I already have in my 2008 BMW328xi coupe. How long should it take to install an MS-8 and how much should I expect to pay?


----------



## Tony2006

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Good tip.


Last time i calibrate at -30 should i try -20?

Lastnight i went ahead and hooked up my rear door speaker to the ms-8 for rear fill and still had my Jl HD running my front stage and i listen to front and rears and it only clip in the front. the rear is fine. But my rear is factory 6 1/2 rockford fosgate. I have a nissan titan and thats what came in my LE model.


----------



## radarcontact

Tony2006 said:


> Last time i calibrate at -30 should i try -20?
> 
> Lastnight i went ahead and hooked up my rear door speaker to the ms-8 for rear fill and still had my Jl HD running my front stage and i listen to front and rears and it only clip in the front. the rear is fine. But my rear is factory 6 1/2 rockford fosgate. I have a nissan titan and thats what came in my LE model.


Just a sanity check for you bro:

Are you sure you have the front L/R (and only the fronts) as inputs? Fader at center? Bal at center? Tone controls to net 0.0? Left out to left in, right to right? All additional processing turned off (sub lvl, DSP, EQs,etc)? Loudness control off?

I have OEM hu and aftermarket amp, I cal'd @ -40 and it worked perfectly first time.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## radarcontact

Update on convertible settings using the rear seats as top down during calibration. Verdict: it works, however, I thought it sounded really bad. Was very bass heavy through about 150 HZ, if I had to guess. I REALLY didn't like it at all. In fact, I found that there some sort of "sonic anomaly" happening with the top down. I will try to figure out a work around as soon as I get my new amp problem figured out/fixed (nothing to do with MS-8).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Kiong34

Hi all,

I would like to ask if using 
4" coaxial speaker on dashboard for left, right & center. (3 channel)
plus 6.5 mid-bass on door (2 channel)
4" coaxial for side left & right (2 channel)
Plus 1x sub (1 channel)

Total 8 channel used up. 

Is it a good idea? will the coaxial sound weak?


----------



## Tony2006

radarcontact said:


> Just a sanity check for you bro:
> 
> Are you sure you have the front L/R (and only the fronts) as inputs? Fader at center? Bal at center? Tone controls to net 0.0? Left out to left in, right to right? All additional processing turned off (sub lvl, DSP, EQs,etc)? Loudness control off?
> 
> I have OEM hu and aftermarket amp, I cal'd @ -40 and it worked perfectly first time.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


yes i have everything corrected. my alpine hu has a defeat mode and that is turned "ON' so everything should be flat at default settings. With the defeat ON i cant get into any sound adjustments.


----------



## taibanl

taibanl said:


> YES - the common thread here is speaker level outs, due to my early 2011, I am unable to recode to HiFi, though I would have preferred that solution.
> 
> Technic did include a relay on his harness that is wired to MS-8 Rem in. I'm wondering if I should rewire anything?


New info, I was unloading my trunk long enough for the car to go to sleep. Here was the sequence observed.

POP
1/2 of a potato
MS-8 Display off
2 Potatoes
Amps off.

Is this correct? I though MS-8 was supposed to stay on until after it shut the others down?


----------



## taibanl

taibanl said:


> New info, I was unloading my trunk long enough for the car to go to sleep. Here was the sequence observed.
> 
> 1) POP!!!
> 2) 1/2 of a potato
> 3) MS-8 Display off
> 4) 2 Potatoes
> 5) Amps off.
> 
> Is this correct? I though MS-8 was supposed to stay on until after it shut the others down?


*Crickets...


----------



## Frank Drebin

taibanl said:


> *Crickets...


Did you post your setup? Factory HU or amp? I know you are supposed to have your factory amp power up by the MS8s remote out. You may be getting the pop from the factory amp making noise when it turns on and off. I couldn't find my turn on lead for the factory amp but when I switched turn on leads the pop went away.

Edit: just because your screen is late to turn on does not mean that your MS8 is not first on last off. You'll have to check the blue power light at the back. What was happening to me was that the factory amp was turning off a fraction of a second before the MS8 did, which caused the pop.


----------



## taibanl

Yes, its posted back on P 256 http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1454825-post6383.html

The short of it is, OEM HU with remote lead to MS-8, with remote leads to aftermarket amps.


----------



## Frank Drebin

taibanl said:


> Yes, its posted back on P 256 http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1454825-post6383.html
> 
> The short of it is, OEM HU with remote lead to MS-8, with remote leads to aftermarket amps.


I think you're getting turn on/turn off pop from the speaker leads into the MS8. I know the MS8 is supposed to turn on/off your factory amp, this was much too difficult for a joe like me to find so I switched the remote in supply to the MS8. I had a lockpick which supplied a remote out, I switched it to the ACC feed from a cig lighter and no more pop.

If you physically disconnect the remote in to the MS8 (ie power it off) and power it back up (while the factory system is still running), do you still get the pop? If not then its definitely a wiring issue, if so it may be a MS8 or amp issue.


----------



## FartinInTheTub

Ya know... I'm really happy I bought the MS8 Processor. I'm building a-pillars at the moment and going from 2-way to 3-way in the front and the MS8 will take care of the transition perfectly. I know this is an insignificant post but I'm just happy I bought it and feel it's worth every penny.


----------



## taibanl

Frank Drebin said:


> I think you're getting turn on/turn off pop from the speaker leads into the MS8. I know the MS8 is supposed to turn on/off your factory amp, this was much too difficult for a joe like me to find so I switched the remote in supply to the MS8. I had a lockpick which supplied a remote out, I switched it to the ACC feed from a cig lighter and no more pop.
> 
> If you physically disconnect the remote in to the MS8 (ie power it off) and power it back up (while the factory system is still running), do you still get the pop? If not then its definitely a wiring issue, if so it may be a MS8 or amp issue.


Greatly appreciated, I'll look at that possibility, from Kaigoss's inputs it does seem like its speaker lead related


----------



## Frank Drebin

FartinInTheTub said:


> Ya know... I'm really happy I bought the MS8 Processor. I'm building a-pillars at the moment and going from 2-way to 3-way in the front and the MS8 will take care of the transition perfectly. I know this is an insignificant post but I'm just happy I bought it and feel it's worth every penny.


You are not alone, in some cases it is definitely not plug and play, and like every piece of electronics there may be some bad units, but I cannot believe how good it sounds.

I do love my MS8.


----------



## taibanl

Frank Drebin said:


> You are not alone, in some cases it is definitely not plug and play, and like every piece of electronics there may be some bad units, but I cannot believe how good it sounds.
> 
> I do love my MS8.


Thanks Frank,

I'm just a bit frustrated at present, I don't know, maybe I have a bad unit but I have popping issues, processor induced background static noise issues, midbass issues, and a recently seen random power off issue. Its a bit much for one product.


----------



## Kiong34

FartinInTheTub said:


> Ya know... I'm really happy I bought the MS8 Processor. I'm building a-pillars at the moment and going from 2-way to 3-way in the front and the MS8 will take care of the transition perfectly. I know this is an insignificant post but I'm just happy I bought it and feel it's worth every penny.


Hi Do you think changing the 2way teewter with coaxial speaker would be better?


----------



## FartinInTheTub

Kiong34 said:


> Hi Do you think changing the 2way teewter with coaxial speaker would be better?


Not sure... Have not tried that.


----------



## FartinInTheTub

taibanl said:


> Thanks Frank,
> 
> I'm just a bit frustrated at present, I don't know, maybe I have a bad unit but I have popping issues, processor induced background static noise issues, midbass issues, and a recently seen random power off issue. Its a bit much for one product.


I had that same issue with my ms8 and 900/5. I ended up turning my gains all the way down and recalibrating and the issue went away.


----------



## kameraguy

FartinInTheTub said:


> I had that same issue with my ms8 and 900/5. I ended up turning my gains all the way down and recalibrating and the issue went away.


Regarding processor static/noise, I had the same issue with my JL 700/5. Confirming that turning down the gains was the resolution when recalibrating. Perhaps this would be a good addition to the JBL MS-8 tuning tip .pdf.


----------



## Frank Drebin

kameraguy said:


> Regarding processor static/noise, I had the same issue with my JL 700/5. Confirming that turning down the gains was the resolution when recalibrating. Perhaps this would be a good addition to the JBL MS-8 tuning tip .pdf.


So you turn the gains down and leave them down?

JL's are 0-5 V, so I'm guessing a little less than 50% (on the JL amp gain which is ~2V) is good for the MS8?


----------



## taibanl

FartinInTheTub said:


> I had that same issue with my ms8 and 900/5. I ended up turning my gains all the way down and recalibrating and the issue went away.


So I am a little confused, are you saying that the MS-8 was introducing noise because your amp gains were high or that the amp gains were introducing thier own static (i.e. amplification of a faint analog static that becomes audible only when gain is applied.)

In my case, my amps are silent...absolutely silent as long as the ms-8 processor is not working. For instance if I reset to factory default, it remains silent until I proceed with the configuration. 

It definitely did NOT do this before a few months ago. One day, driving down the road I had a loud static suddenly come from my center, which went away when I power cycled the car. Since then I've gotten it to be silent sporadically (after a recall initially) but now it seems I am always stuck with this quiet but quite audible processor static.


----------



## m0sdef

taibanl said:


> So I am a little confused, are you saying that the MS-8 was introducing noise because your amp gains were high or that the amp gains were introducing thier own static (i.e. amplification of a faint analog static that becomes audible only when gain is applied.)
> 
> In my case, my amps are silent...absolutely silent as long as the ms-8 processor is not working. For instance if I reset to factory default, it remains silent until I proceed with the configuration.
> 
> It definitely did NOT do this before a few months ago. One day, driving down the road I had a loud static suddenly come from my center, which went away when I power cycled the car. Since then I've gotten it to be silent sporadically (after a recall initially) but now it seems I am always stuck with this quiet but quite audible processor static.


I had the same problem with my right midrange giving off a static sound randomly. I reset to factory default on the head unit then immediately held down the reset button on the unit per advice of the JBL tech. That fixed the problem I had.


----------



## kameraguy

Frank Drebin said:


> So you turn the gains down and leave them down?
> 
> JL's are 0-5 V, so I'm guessing a little less than 50% (on the JL amp gain which is ~2V) is good for the MS8?


During the initial calibration, I turned all the gains down to about 25%, performed a system reset on the MS-8, and started the calibration (at -35db MS-8 volume setting). This worked to eliminate the MS-8 introduced system noise for my install. Once the calibration was complete, turning the gains back up to your output preference should be fine. If 50% is equiivalent to ~2v, then yes, this is the ideal setting per the instruction manual. I'll try re-doing mine at 50% now that you mention this.

Another tip: make sure the JL crossovers are defeated to allow full range into the MS-8 for all channels.


----------



## taibanl

Does "reset to factory defaults" do anything LESS than the reset button? I understand that the reset button maintains calibration settings.


----------



## FartinInTheTub

taibanl said:


> So I am a little confused, are you saying that the MS-8 was introducing noise because your amp gains were high or that the amp gains were introducing thier own static (i.e. amplification of a faint analog static that becomes audible only when gain is applied.)
> 
> In my case, my amps are silent...absolutely silent as long as the ms-8 processor is not working. For instance if I reset to factory default, it remains silent until I proceed with the configuration.
> 
> It definitely did NOT do this before a few months ago. One day, driving down the road I had a loud static suddenly come from my center, which went away when I power cycled the car. Since then I've gotten it to be silent sporadically (after a recall initially) but now it seems I am always stuck with this quiet but quite audible processor static.


I had a turn on and turn off thump that was horrid! I turned down the gains to 1/4 and it reduced the thump... all the way down and it went away. not sure why but I'll take it.


----------



## 14642

Pressing the reset button on the MS-8 simply reboots it. "Reset Factory Devaults" in the settings menu resets the unit and clears all of the memory.


----------



## an2ny888

do you experience a loud noise when you reset to factory defaults? sounds like it could damage the speakers


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## 14642

an2ny888 said:


> do you experience a loud noise when you reset to factory defaults? sounds like it could damage the speakers


Turn the volume down before resetting. Also, it sounds lie your amplifier input sensitivity settings may be VERY high.


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## an2ny888

volume is at the standard -06db as recommended, btw i'm using the ms8 amps, except for the sub


----------



## naiku

I am sure this has already been answered, but I can't find where. Does the MS8 need a separate power line from the battery? or can I add a distro block to my existing power wire that runs to my amp?


----------



## Babs

Gonna take a guess and say power split from a distro is just fine. Just fuse accordingly.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## elerner61

Looking for some thoughts on this.

I'm running 3-way fronts only (6.5" in kickpanel, 3" mids in doors, tweets in sails). Currently been running the OEM drivers off of the MS-8 amps to get a feel for the MS-8 before changing drivers and installing an amp. 

When the source is a CD or Ipod, I get good imaging with vocals and bass from the center and I'm pretty happ with the way it sounds. However, when the source is the tuner playing standard FM stations (i.e. with much less detail than CD/Ipod) it often sounds like most of the content is very focused and centered in front of me.

I'm not looking (or planning) to do any high quality listening to the FM tuner. However, for those times when I'm on auto-pilot (morning drive to the office) or just on a quick chore and don't want to choose my tunes, it would be nice to have my system sound less like a center dash speaker AM radio from the early 70's.

So, any thoughts on things I can try?


----------



## truckerfte

naiku said:


> I am sure this has already been answered, but I can't find where. Does the MS8 need a separate power line from the battery? or can I add a distro block to my existing power wire that runs to my amp?


Its the way I'm running mine...I mean your amp already is running to the battery, right?

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk


----------



## naiku

truckerfte said:


> Its the way I'm running mine...I mean your amp already is running to the battery, right?


Yep, amp is already running to the battery with a fuse about 6" from the battery. I figured a distro block was fine, but just wanted confirmation.


----------



## eviling

hey, the cord that comes with the ms-8 for the display, i sold my ms-8 but i dont wanna tear through my car to pull it out, i have it run to my glove box, i'd rather just leave it, is their a way i could order the cord, it's not a 3.5 mm jack, its like a 2.5 mm jack with 3-4 wires i believe. anybody found any online that they've used?


----------



## t3sn4f2

an2ny888 said:


> volume is at the standard -06db as recommended, btw i'm using the ms8 amps, except for the sub


0dB is MAX volume setting

-80dB is minimum volume setting or "0"

-6dB is damn near max.

Turn it down to near minimum before resetting.


----------



## taibanl

*I had a huge "AHA!" moment this morning.*

As some of you may recall, I've been bitching about a boomy sub. I think I have figured it out. IIRC from another post, Andy states the sub sweep is between 50-80 hz.

*Now look at this*

What am I getting at....?

The Subwoofer frequency response has:
peak of 95db @ 18hz. 

...but...between 50 and 80hz it has:
a high of: 90dB @ 50hz and
a low of 86dB @ 80hz. 

Thus, if the MS-8 is doing eq based on a narrow band sweep between 50-80hz, *could it be that the MS-8 is also boosting the below 50hz range by the same amount....(i.e. in those ranges the frequencies are anywhere from 5-9dB louder than they should be?) Am I onto something or smoking something?*


----------



## HK_M3

I have a JBL MS-8 I just installed, the rear speakers will not play with the MS-8's amps and I am having staging & midbass issues. System as follows:

Alpine CDA-117

JL C5-653 (4" & tweet in Kick Panels, 6" in door)

JL C3 4" in rear door

JL HD 900/5

JL 13W6v2

I ran the front channels of the 900/5 to the 653 mid tweet attached to the passive.

I ran the rear channels active to the midbass, crossed over at 280 (24db slope)

I had channels 5 & 6 available so I ran speaker outputs from pins 5 & 6 from the ms-8 to my rear speakers. The speakers tone right off the ms-8 but for some reason the ms-8 will not power the speakers. During setup I selected side speakers instead of rear.

System sounds solid. Logic 7 is off. Image is centered and at about A/C control height. The stage does not sound that wide and the midbass/sub integration is a bit disjointed. I will play with the phase of the sub to check those problems.

I also seem to run out of headroom, I listen to most music at -11 to -6 db and it's not even blasting. Maybe I'm running out of power? 

Help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!


----------



## Mark the Bold

Anybody here using a Dayton RS180-4 with the MS-8? Would you be so kind as to share your crossover frequencies? I'm getting significant resonance / distortion from my right channel mid.

I have it right now bandpassed from 80hz to 1400Hz but have played around with it all the way up to 2100Hz. It sounds like metal chirping and is getting progressively worse. Maybe I blew it?

All in all, I'm getting more and more issues with my system now that I put in the MS-8. Not saying its the MS-8's fault or anything but there is something serious I overlooked. Maybe one of you can help with this:

(a) Even with the MS-8 @ -0db I have to put my Kenwood kdc-x995 at like volume 30 to get reasonably loud listening levels.  The headunit's max is 35 so I am certain that I am clipping the MS-8. But lo and behold, when I do calibration with the CD during setup I have to set the volume to 33 just for the MS-8 to say the signal is OK. 32 is too low. Is this normal? Seems ridiculously high just to receive a clean left/right signal from the headunit.

(b) My ARC KS900.6 no longer seems to put out enough juice for all the channels. Seems like the MS-8 is putting out a very faint signal because I have to have the Kenwood's volume at like 32 to enjoy reasonable listening levels. If I plug the HU directly into the amp (bypasing the ms-8) with the same gains it would explode the speakers at level 33 I am certain. I've tried putting all the gains low and high on the amp to no avail. I must ALWAYS have the HU volume at like 32-33 to rock out. Can't be good for the MS-8 I'm sure sending such a hot signal from the HU to it......

Maybe somebody can help me. The million dollar question is why the MS-8 is sending such a weak-sauce signal to my amp no matter what I do. DO I need to upgrade my amps? Believe me I don't listen to music that loudly.....


----------



## eviling

The logic is sound. The trick to getting the sub levels right is to calibrate with your gains higher than you have them setjust In safe limits of its Max. Than turn it down once you've done calibration.


----------



## taibanl

eviling said:


> The logic is sound. The trick to getting the sub levels right is to calibrate with your gains higher than you have them setjust In safe limits of its Max. Than turn it down once you've done calibration.


So this begs the question, is the MS-8 normalizing each driver across its entire frequency range or is it matching certain points from driver to driver.

IF, with the front stage, it is normalizing each driver across the entire frequency range but with the sub it is not, it would perfectly explain why better results are achieved with the kaigoss mod.


----------



## eviling

I believe at that point it's just trying to bring down the levels to match.


what is this mod you speak of?


----------



## taibanl

eviling said:


> I believe at that point it's just trying to bring down the levels to match.
> 
> 
> what is this mod you speak of?


Ok levels...levels as in one max sPL per speaker or levels as in level matching the driver across all frequencies.

To put it another way, If I calibrate two drivers (a mid and a tweet), is it matching each one at its peak sPL or is it flattening out the frequency response all the way from the bottom of the mid's playing range to the top of the tweet's range.

The kaigoss mod is running the sub off passively crossed off of your mid bass channel.


----------



## charlesg35

Getting the levels in and out of the MS-8 is a challange, I've found that once you've completed the input set-up turn your head unit way down. Also turn the level on the MS-8 down to around mid-way. When the test signals are produced for the time alignment the sound from your speakers should be only as loud as someone talking to you. Once the calibration is complete, you can turn the MS-8 up to -6dB. Then turn your amp gains down, head unit to max, play your favorite tracks, and turn up the amp gains until they begin to clip. Turn the amp gains down slightly below the clipping level. This should give you control similar to where you were before installing the MS-8.


----------



## taibanl

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So here's the deal--The target curve includes 9dB more bass than midrange, and the high frequencies roll off a bit--20k is -6dB when compared to 1k.
> 
> If you're building a system and you're using regular car audio speakers and a sub, then all of this sensitivity matching isn't all that necessary, considering the amplifier power that you're likely to use. That's why I say set the input sensitivity to 2V.
> 
> If you're building a system with drivers of wildly varying sensitivity and are using monster amounts of power on part of your system and not on the others, then you'll have to do a little work to get within the 40-or-so-dB window that MS-8 uses for EQ. MS-8 tries to level match using several analysis bands before it applies EQ. It checks the bass between 50 and 80Hz. If you cross your sub over at 40Hz and it's a 15" in a .5 cubic foot box, you're going to have problems. MS-8 sweeps a wider band of frequencies than what you choose as a crossover--it has to.
> 
> In the example above, the woofer will have MUCH greater output above 40Hz than below. When MS-8 sweeps, it will set the bass level according to the 50-80Hz output, then it will try to EQ the bass back in. Is this bad algorithm design? I don't think so. Crossing a sub over at 40 Hz is ridiculous, unless you've designed the box above. In that case, the problem isn't that MS-8 is bad, the problem is that the subwoofer design seriously unconventional--you'd be using the sub only in the "stop-band". For a sub designed this way, the only valid reason to do it is because you have no space for woofers and have plenty of money to throw away on a seriously inefficient design. A 10" the same box would probably be a better choice.
> 
> If you use horns and compression drivers because you're into pattern control, then you'll have to deal with the fact that they're proably 20dB more effficient than the [email protected],1M midbass that are likely to go along with them--and the fact that frequencies above 10k are likely to be almost missing. If you apply 100W to the horns and 100W to the midbass, then you're going to chew up EQ and gain matching just to get the horns and midbass to similar levels.
> 
> So...the moral of the story here is...
> 
> MS-8 was designed to make it very easy to get a great sounding system if you build a system in a pretty conventional way. We've included lots of "edge cases", too. There are 48 possible speaker systems supported and in order for it to do it's thing, the output of the speakers needs to be within about 30dB. If you use readily available car audio gear and don't include a monster sub system, then the 2V suggestion works great, so long as the sweeps are at the right level. The window is big--turn the volume down. If you've built a system that includes drivers and amps that make the acoustic output of the various bands well outside this window, then you'll need to make some adjustments.
> 
> If you're using a conventional signal processor, then you'll be able to more easily get things in order with an unconventional system before doing any equalizing. MS-8 doesn't pass signal until you run setup, so it's helpful to ballpark the settings the first time, but before insisting that my suggestion can't work, you might using it as a baseline.
> 
> This saturation problem isn't unique to MS-8, it's just better hidden with regular RTAs. When you saturate the input (mic or preamp) of a regular RTA, the data you view gets compressed and the curve looks nicer when you make frequency response measurements. This is a convenient little lie and one that few novice tuners are likely to question. However, in my experience this is a contributing factor in the "flat response don't sound no good" view.
> 
> If you try to set time alignment by making impulse response measurements and you saturate the input, you won't be able to accurately pick the peak--and MS-8 can't either. The difference is that with the manual method, you'll be able to enter the wrong number or make a measurement with a ruler and enter that number and move on. In this case, MS-8 just doesn't set the value or doesn't EQ. Is that worse? Hmmm...depends on your view. I wish MS-8 would flash a big red light and say, through the speakers, "Dude...unconventional system detected. Please turn down the bass" (or something to that effect), but it doesn't. That's why I sit here in front of my computer typing into this forum all the time.
> 
> Gary and I used to have to show up two days before an IASCA contest with a suitcase full of gear to tune Team JBL cars so our guys' cars would sound good. Now, Gary and I show up the day before the show eat a nice dinner, make a few adjustments with MS-8's remote and the results are usually better.
> 
> All of this boils down to one very simple statement--MS-8 uses a different method of tuning a car and has its own constraints. Once you accept them and learn to work within them, the process is simpler and will probably yield better EQ results, unless you're a master tweaker and have serious analysis tools and processing capability and the time to spend making a thousand adjustments.





taibanl said:


> *I had a huge "AHA!" moment this morning.*
> 
> As some of you may recall, I've been bitching about a boomy sub. I think I have figured it out. IIRC from another post, Andy states the sub sweep is between 50-80 hz.
> 
> *Now look at this*
> 
> What am I getting at....?
> 
> The Subwoofer frequency response has:
> peak of 95db @ 18hz.
> 
> ...but...between 50 and 80hz it has:
> a high of: 90dB @ 50hz and
> a low of 86dB @ 80hz.
> 
> Thus, if the MS-8 is doing eq based on a narrow band sweep between 50-80hz, *could it be that the MS-8 is also boosting the below 50hz range by the same amount....(i.e. in those ranges the frequencies are anywhere from 5-9dB louder than they should be?) Am I onto something or smoking something?*


So the above post seems to confirm everything.

The image dynamics sub is approximately 9dB louder @18hz than at 80hz. 
The target curve for the ms-8 is 9dB louder for bass than for miss.

So if the 50-80hz response is treated as the floor, *the MS-8 is making my sub-bass 18dB louder than flat!* :thumbs down: 

I wonder why it is designed with this boost..why not at least have an option for flat.

Andy (if you read this), can you tell me exactly what adjustments to put in on the 31-band in order to draw a flat curve? errr...a flat line ;-)


----------



## taibanl

Andy W said:


> Andy Wehmeyer :
> That's what this sounds like to me too. Choosing "Front" instead of "Driver" will essentially *shut off* time alignment for left and right, so you'll hear the speakers instead of an image.


Cancelled out or Shut off?...the reason I ask is because I considered using two measurements for driver (front) and two for right seat pax (rear).


----------



## eviling

taibanl said:


> Ok levels...levels as in one max sPL per speaker or levels as in level matching the driver across all frequencies.
> 
> To put it another way, If I calibrate two drivers (a mid and a tweet), is it matching each one at its peak sPL or is it flattening out the frequency response all the way from the bottom of the mid's playing range to the top of the tweet's range.
> 
> The kaigoss mod is running the sub off passively crossed off of your mid bass channel.


i don't know i didn't ask :mean: i'll ask it next time.


----------



## 14642

taibanl said:


> So the above post seems to confirm everything.
> 
> The image dynamics sub is approximately 9dB louder @18hz than at 80hz.
> The target curve for the ms-8 is 9dB louder for bass than for miss.
> 
> So if the 50-80hz response is treated as the floor, *the MS-8 is making my sub-bass 18dB louder than flat!* :thumbs down:
> 
> I wonder why it is designed with this boost..why not at least have an option for flat.
> 
> Andy (if you read this), can you tell me exactly what adjustments to put in on the 31-band in order to draw a flat curve? errr...a flat line ;-)


No, MS-8 sweeps the bass from below 20 Hz to way above 80Hz. I don't remember the cutoffs exactly. It uses the rage of 50-80Hz to level match the bass according to the target response. Then, it EQs the bass and everything else.


----------



## 14642

HK_M3 said:


> I have a JBL MS-8 I just installed, the rear speakers will not play with the MS-8's amps and I am having staging & midbass issues. System as follows:
> 
> Alpine CDA-117
> 
> JL C5-653 (4" & tweet in Kick Panels, 6" in door)
> 
> JL C3 4" in rear door
> 
> JL HD 900/5
> 
> JL 13W6v2
> 
> I ran the front channels of the 900/5 to the 653 mid tweet attached to the passive.
> 
> I ran the rear channels active to the midbass, crossed over at 280 (24db slope)
> 
> I had channels 5 & 6 available so I ran speaker outputs from pins 5 & 6 from the ms-8 to my rear speakers. The speakers tone right off the ms-8 but for some reason the ms-8 will not power the speakers. During setup I selected side speakers instead of rear.
> 
> System sounds solid. Logic 7 is off. Image is centered and at about A/C control height. The stage does not sound that wide and the midbass/sub integration is a bit disjointed. I will play with the phase of the sub to check those problems.
> 
> I also seem to run out of headroom, I listen to most music at -11 to -6 db and it's not even blasting. Maybe I'm running out of power?
> 
> Help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks!


Need more information:

1. Are all the crossovers in the amplifier off?
2. What crossover points have you chosen in MS-8 and what are the slopes?
3. Front should be configured as 2-way. Is it?
4. What is the setting for the amplifier input sensitivity controls?


----------



## HK_M3

1) Yes
2) Sub crossed at 80hz, 24db slope, midbass to midrange 280hz 24db slope, then the passive takes over and sends the tweeter 4.7khz up
3) Yes
4) Roughly 10 o'clock

Upper midrange and treble are a touch glossy. Sounds solid overall but lack of total volume as well. 

How do I fix the potential phase issues on my sub.


----------



## taibanl

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, MS-8 sweeps the bass from below 20 Hz to way above 80Hz. I don't remember the cutoffs exactly. It uses the rage of 50-80Hz to level match the bass according to the target response. Then, it EQs the bass and everything else.


Ok, so for me to conceptualize better, the 50-80 band is the sPL "center-point" of the subwoofer band (to which the rest of the system is matched). It then adjusts the surrounding subwoofer range up or down to meet that sPL center point.

If the above is the case, I don't suppose it could run out of downside eq room for the sub's peak @ 18hz.


Edit: Ive been reading for hours, the various threads regarding MS-8. My conclusion is I really, REALLY want this unit to work for me. I just still have a long way to go.

And...sounds like in my setup I am wasting a lot of power since my rear's aren't amped. After reading the FAQ, seems they cap the system. But, if my system gets loud enough overall (It does, tops out slightly before my ears bleed), do I care?


----------



## taibanl

Andy, I noticed that the reason 24hz slopes are favored are due to induced phase issues with 2nd order slopes....

If I do the kaigoss mod, I think the common slope between the mid bass and sub bass amps that I have will be 2nd order. Should I be concerned about this?

Also, my sub amp (Alpine MRD-M300) has a 1/3 octave parametric eq. I have no Idea if it works like yours does, should I try and flatten the sub response before calibrating with MS-8?


----------



## taibanl

I am not understanding how the following two posts fit together...they seem contradictory



james2266 said:


> I am curious of the answer to this as well. My plan is to upgrade my front comps and then move the current ones to the back likely. Don't know if I can get a center in my dash without some serious carving (not going to happen on a brand new vehicle under lease). My original thought was to just use the MS-8 power for the rears but i have heard others complain of a serious loss of output with this kind of setup. Is this the case and I should round up another amp or will the MS-8 power not cause this issue. I have 160 w rms going to midbass and 50 w rms going to tweets from an LRx 5.1k.
> 
> 
> 
> AdamS said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I would try. During the pink noise sequence where you verify the channels, turn down the L/R amp until its close to the MS8 amp level.
> Run setup, listen, make sure it sounds good, just not loud enough.
> Increase the master volume until the L/R distort and then back it off. This is where you might think you're stuck, but you're not.
> Next, fade to the back almost all the way (say 9 dB, we don't want to turn the fronts off).
> Increase the master volume by the same amount. This will bring the fronts back to where they were almost clipping, but bring the surrounds/rears up.
> Lastly, turn up your front amp up by 9 dB to compensate for the fading effect.
> You have just regained 9 dB.
> You might be able to increase your amp by even more than 9 dB, but you'd have to experiment
Click to expand...




AdamS said:


> FYI - The level is based on the loudest speaker in the 300 Hz to 3KHz range. If the loudest driver is completely in that range, then the level is based on that driver. Otherwise, if your crossover is in between these two numbers, your reference level could be based on 2 or more drivers.


Which is it? Is the baseline system volume limited by the quietest driver or is it raised to the loudest driver?


----------



## taibanl

taibanl said:


> Andy (if you read this), can you tell me exactly what adjustments to put in on the 31-band in order to draw a flat curve? errr...a flat line ;-)











To answer my own question:

50hz band and below, subtract 9dB
draw a linear slope to neutral @160hz

Add +3dB to 16k, +6dB to 20dB, 
draw a linear slope from neutral @2k to +3dB @16k
(Possibly adjust above +9dB @ 25k, but its inaudible so who cares)

Anyone disagree?


----------



## 14642

HK_M3 said:


> 1) Yes
> 2) Sub crossed at 80hz, 24db slope, midbass to midrange 280hz 24db slope, then the passive takes over and sends the tweeter 4.7khz up
> 3) Yes
> 4) Roughly 10 o'clock
> 
> Upper midrange and treble are a touch glossy. Sounds solid overall but lack of total volume as well.
> 
> How do I fix the potential phase issues on my sub.


OK. Cool.
Try reversing the polarity of the sub--you can do that at the amp. 

When you calibrate, the amp gains ought to be set at about the 2V position. Once you've finished calibrating, you can turn the amp gains all up by the same amount if you don't have enough level. Before you do this, adjust the radio's volume control and MS-8's to see if there really isn't enough. Turn MS-8's volume control way down and turn the head's control up until you hear a little distortion and then turn it down until it goes away. That's the max for the radio's control. Leave it there if you want to use MS-8's volume control. IF you don't, the put MS-8's control on -6 to -9 and use the radio's control.


----------



## 14642

Mark the Bold said:


> Anybody here using a Dayton RS180-4 with the MS-8? Would you be so kind as to share your crossover frequencies? I'm getting significant resonance / distortion from my right channel mid.
> 
> I have it right now bandpassed from 80hz to 1400Hz but have played around with it all the way up to 2100Hz. It sounds like metal chirping and is getting progressively worse. Maybe I blew it?
> 
> All in all, I'm getting more and more issues with my system now that I put in the MS-8. Not saying its the MS-8's fault or anything but there is something serious I overlooked. Maybe one of you can help with this:
> 
> (a) Even with the MS-8 @ -0db I have to put my Kenwood kdc-x995 at like volume 30 to get reasonably loud listening levels. The headunit's max is 35 so I am certain that I am clipping the MS-8. But lo and behold, when I do calibration with the CD during setup I have to set the volume to 33 just for the MS-8 to say the signal is OK. 32 is too low. Is this normal? Seems ridiculously high just to receive a clean left/right signal from the headunit.
> 
> (b) My ARC KS900.6 no longer seems to put out enough juice for all the channels. Seems like the MS-8 is putting out a very faint signal because I have to have the Kenwood's volume at like 32 to enjoy reasonable listening levels. If I plug the HU directly into the amp (bypasing the ms-8) with the same gains it would explode the speakers at level 33 I am certain. I've tried putting all the gains low and high on the amp to no avail. I must ALWAYS have the HU volume at like 32-33 to rock out. Can't be good for the MS-8 I'm sure sending such a hot signal from the HU to it......
> 
> Maybe somebody can help me. The million dollar question is why the MS-8 is sending such a weak-sauce signal to my amp no matter what I do. DO I need to upgrade my amps? Believe me I don't listen to music that loudly.....


Something isn't right, unless that head unit has a really weak output. Check to be sure that the bass, treble, balance and fader are all set in the middle. Go back and "reset factory defaults" in MS-8's settings menu. When you get to "input Setup" choose "Skip input setup". You have an aftermarket radio that provides a full range stereo signal. No need for Un-EQ.

Se the amp gains for 2V and calibrate. Once that's done, try again. If you need more level, turn all the amp gains up by the same amount.


----------



## 14642

taibanl said:


> To answer my own question:
> 
> 50hz band and below, subtract 9dB
> draw a linear slope to neutral @160hz
> 
> Add +3dB to 16k, +6dB to 20dB,
> draw a linear slope from neutral @2k to +3dB @16k
> (Possibly adjust above +9dB @ 25k, but its inaudible so who cares)
> 
> Anyone disagree?


Yes, I disagree. Flat sounds terrible and you won't like it. In any case, it should be simple to draw the inverse of thecurve in the 31-band EQ.

However, that's not the problem, I'm sure. The curves in the manual that you're referring to appear to be from the "Quick Cab" routine in LEAP and should be considered a gross approximation of what happens in your car. I know this because I've made lots of measurements in lots of cars...I've even posted those graphs on this forum and the thread is called "If cabin gain...do we really need a low Fs" or something like that. 

MS-8 uses a pretty complicated way to match levels and then EQ the car, because each channel is EQed separately. First it uses the sweeps to set levels. For the front and rear, it uses whatever Adam has posted--300-3k or something like that. For the subs it uses 50-80Hz. That doesn't mean it only sweeps them there. It means those are the ranges it tries to match. Then, it applies EQ to the whole signal for each channel to match the range between the crossovers you set to the portion of the target curve between the crossovers you've chosen. 


Before we go any further, can you please tell me what crossover points you're using? Also, any crossovers in your amps should be shut off.


----------



## HK_M3

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> OK. Cool.
> Try reversing the polarity of the sub--you can do that at the amp.
> 
> When you calibrate, the amp gains ought to be set at about the 2V position. Once you've finished calibrating, you can turn the amp gains all up by the same amount if you don't have enough level. Before you do this, adjust the radio's volume control and MS-8's to see if there really isn't enough. Turn MS-8's volume control way down and turn the head's control up until you hear a little distortion and then turn it down until it goes away. That's the max for the radio's control. Leave it there if you want to use MS-8's volume control. IF you don't, the put MS-8's control on -6 to -9 and use the radio's control.


Thanks Andy! I calibrated at -40 and set it to -06 and use my head units volume to about level 25 which is the max (Alpine 4 volt deck, tested not to clip even at full volume)

I will try the sub thing later today. 

Overall a solid product, just need to figure out this volume thing. Thank you so much for coming out with a product of this caliber!


----------



## Frank Drebin

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> IF you don't, the put MS-8's control on -6 to -9 and use the radio's control.


Just curious, why cant we use 0 for volume on the MS-8? It's probably in my head, but my system seems to sound better/more dynamic with the factory HU @ 22/38 and the MS8 at 0 volume vs having the MS8 volume at -6 and the HU @ 30/38.

Is it possible that the HU/factory amp filters out the bass as the volume is increased?


----------



## AndyInOC

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Something isn't right, unless that head unit has a really weak output. Check to be sure that the bass, treble, balance and fader are all set in the middle. Go back and "reset factory defaults" in MS-8's settings menu. When you get to "input Setup" choose "Skip input setup". You have an aftermarket radio that provides a full range stereo signal. No need for Un-EQ.
> 
> Se the amp gains for 2V and calibrate. Once that's done, try again. If you need more level, turn all the amp gains up by the same amount.



If its the same as my kdc-x794 it hits a 2v output (with a 1k 0db tone) at like 32 of 35, so yeah they don't really set the world on fire with the output lol


----------



## HK_M3

Andy,

I almost forgot. What about the MS-8's 5th and 6th channels not powering my rear speakers?

Thanks again!


----------



## nerofive4

kaigoss69 said:


> My advice would be to use the factory in-line crossovers and play the mids and tweets off of one channel pair. If you have L7, I know it'll sound damn good. With Hifi, you should (reportedly) also expect very good results.
> 
> The underseat woofers will need additional amplification as the MS-8's 18W just won't cut it. The Logic7 woofers are great, the Hifis are (supposedly) pretty good as well. They will take about 75W of RESPONSIBLE power. In the long run, you may want to think about replacing them. Look for Jehnert XE200, Morel MW265-4, and Earthquake SWS-8. Plenty of info on e90post dot com.
> 
> Another piece of advice: Try to avoid using the AUX in. Get the 6FL USB interface and invest in an external hard drive....much better and cleaner sound than through the AUX port.


Does the 6fl usb interface relate to the car or the processor?


----------



## taibanl

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, I disagree. Flat sounds terrible and you won't like it. In any case, it should be simple to draw the inverse of the curve in the 31-band EQ.






Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Before we go any further, can you please tell me what crossover points you're using? Also, any crossovers in your amps should be shut off.


Andy, thank you for the clarification on the sweep.

I just wanted to confirm that drawing the inverse would result in what I thought it would. I know you have posted a long explanation on how different eq filters produce different (and sometimes unexpected) results. I'd like the ability to have a flat preset, not necessarily for daily listing (though might use for classical), but flat for the sake of being flat. That's why I have 5 right?

I am crossing sub to mid @80/24
Mid to [email protected]

Centers and rears @150

I know it gets frustrating responding to amateurs such as myself, believe me I am doing my best to soak up as much as possible from you and others here. Perhaps I should remain quiet until I implement the kaigoss mod (and go active on centers), but I tend to have the urge to post questions as they are sparked from other's posts. Additionally, I have other unrelated issues with the unit that I am trying to get more info on, so when I rewire it in my trunk it will be a one-time deal. (It's hard to access). At that time I will be doing an RTA with the help of a respected poster here.

Thank you for your time in addressing your product as it relates to my system. I really do hope to have it 100% as everything I read from the FAQ posts and those without issues, the product sounds fantastic.


----------



## HK_M3

Andy,

All problems fixed except for the 5th & 6th channels not powering the rear speakers. 

Thanks!


----------



## t3sn4f2

nerofive4 said:


> Does the 6fl usb interface relate to the car or the processor?


car.


----------



## gokalper

Having a very hard time with the MS-8. I have read most of the thread , the pdf, jbl's tips and manual. with no avail i can not get the ms-8 to recognize the calibration cd. It keeps saying "signal none". I have fr+fl from the stock head unit going int channels 1&2. I know it get a signal from the head unit since i skip the cd and choose the crossovers and inputs manually without the cd calibration it works. It just sounds terrible. 

My setup is as follows:

Infiniti g35 2007 sedan , stock sound system, audio direct from head unit not the stock amp.
Channels 1&2 are fead with fr+fl into the ms-8 high level inputs.
Channels 1-6 go out from the ms-8 over RCA's to JL xd600/6 amp.
channel 1&2 - front miss
channels 3&4 rear mids
channel 5 - sub
channel 6- empty
channels 7-8 via high level outputs go into the front tweeters. 
The MS-8 is configured for a 2-way front 
No center
no sides
And when i try to sutep rears it gives me the option: none
Unless i do a 1 way for the front then it gives me rear options.

So how am i going to get the ms-8 to recognize the cd.
Run my front 2-ways active from the ms-8 while running the rears

Let me put it this way, if i connect a direct input from my iPod to the JL amp directly and operate the input at 2 channel and let it up convert to 6 channels the music sounds better than the ms-8. And that without running the tweeters upfront at all.

If there is anyone in San Diego or close by that can assist in person that would be amazing. 

BTW the system info is:
Main: 3.96
DSP: 1.30
Display: 3.38 Base code
Strings 1.39

Andy help is much needed.... seriously if i can't get this to sound good / ok, I'm considering selling the car as i need head unit functionality.


----------



## taibanl

gokalper said:


> Having a very hard time with the MS-8. i can not get the ms-8 to recognize the calibration cd. It keeps saying "signal none".





gokalper said:


> My setup is as follows:
> 
> Infiniti g35 2007 sedan , stock sound system, audio direct from head unit not the stock amp.





gokalper said:


> Channels 1&2 are fead with fr+fl into the ms-8 high level inputs.


I am not sure what the output voltage of your OEM head unit is but if the signal is not amplified, shouldn't you be using the rca inputs?


----------



## gokalper

taibanl said:


> I am not sure what the output voltage of your OEM head unit is but if the signal is not amplified, shouldn't you be using the rca inputs?


I don't think it's amplified. I'm getting the signal directly from the audio processor. I can check the voltage and see what it is. 

How would i get RCA output from my head unit? Wire it into an RCA cable?

Whats odd is that the head unit plays music after the manual setup when you bypass the CD calibration. So I know the MS-8 gets a signal from the head unit.

Edit: Of course I changed my speakers to polk mm6501 / mmc6500's. Sounds good from the AMP directly when going through an iPod, if the head unit is plugged into the AMP directly it sounds bad, that s why i got the MS-8 like everyone else .... 

I do hope there is a solution to my problem.


----------



## taibanl

gokalper said:


> How would i get RCA output from my head unit? Wire it into an RCA cable?


This is exactly what you have to do.


gokalper said:


> Whats odd is that the head unit plays music after the manual setup when you bypass the CD calibration. So I know the MS-8 gets a signal from the head unit.


Its looking for a certain voltage range from that signal. If you don't meet the threshold, it won't be detected.


----------



## gokalper

taibanl said:


> This is exactly what you have to do.Its looking for a certain voltage range from that signal. If you don't meet the threshold, it won't be detected.


I'm going to measure the voltage output from the head unit. What range am i looking for RCA in? and for High level input in?

I thought that the MS-8 only takes 2 volts in max, thats why I pulled direct from the head unit. Also since the stock amp would add further noise and wired effects.

Edit: So The g35 uses differential balanced outputs. I assume/hope its low level so a simple RCA can fix my problem.

Any ideas about the rear speakers saying none when selecting 2-way for the front speakers during setup.


----------



## taibanl

Its listed 2.8v max, but IIRC it can actually take peaks up to about 5 or so. In any case, thats your only option. It takes damn near max power of my OEM HU to get the MS-8 to say "Signal OK" (my OEM system does not have an amp downstream).


----------



## Cobalt232

gokalper said:


> I'm going to measure the voltage output from the head unit. What range am i looking for RCA in? and for High level input in?
> 
> I thought that the MS-8 only takes 2 volts in max, thats why I pulled direct from the head unit. Also since the stock amp would add further noise and wired effects.
> 
> Edit: So The g35 uses differential balanced outputs. I assume/hope its low level so a simple RCA can fix my problem.
> 
> Any ideas about the rear speakers saying none when selecting 2-way for the front speakers during setup.


My 09 G37 uses differential balanced outputs. Got my wire diagram off MYG37 forum. I'm sure that there is something like this on G35 Driver forum. 

I took the L +/- going into the amp and cut or spliced on a RCA cable. did the same for the R+/-. Works great. I don't use the C/D to set the level either. I treat it as an aftermarket head unit.

Hope this helps.


----------



## 14642

HK_M3 said:


> Thanks Andy! I calibrated at -40 and set it to -06 and use my head units volume to about level 25 which is the max (Alpine 4 volt deck, tested not to clip even at full volume)
> 
> I will try the sub thing later today.
> 
> Overall a solid product, just need to figure out this volume thing. Thank you so much for coming out with a product of this caliber!


Feel free to turn the volume of the radio up a littlemore than what the MS-8 says is max. The test track on the CD is recorded at 0dB. That's the loudest peak that can exist on a digital recording. Music reaches 0dB sometimes, and only on transients. We don't hear distortion very well on transients, so you may be able to turn the head unit's volume control up quite a bit higher, depending on the recording.

FWIW, the difference between the 2.8V that MS-8 wants and the 4V from your head unit is 3dB. 3dB worth of clipping is NOTHING.


----------



## 14642

Frank Drebin said:


> Just curious, why cant we use 0 for volume on the MS-8? It's probably in my head, but my system seems to sound better/more dynamic with the factory HU @ 22/38 and the MS8 at 0 volume vs having the MS8 volume at -6 and the HU @ 30/38.
> 
> Is it possible that the HU/factory amp filters out the bass as the volume is increased?


 
The reason I suggest -6 to -9 is to leave some room in the digital signal for use of the subwoofer level control or some boost in the 31-band EQ. If you like it best at 0dB, then go for it.


----------



## 14642

taibanl said:


> This is exactly what you have to do.Its looking for a certain voltage range from that signal. If you don't meet the threshold, it won't be detected.


This is left over from the previous calibration. The EQ filters aren't cleared until new ones are written over the old ones. If you do a "reset factory defaults" this won't happen.


----------



## 14642

gokalper said:


> I'm going to measure the voltage output from the head unit. What range am i looking for RCA in? and for High level input in?
> 
> I thought that the MS-8 only takes 2 volts in max, thats why I pulled direct from the head unit. Also since the stock amp would add further noise and wired effects.
> 
> Edit: So The g35 uses differential balanced outputs. I assume/hope its low level so a simple RCA can fix my problem.
> 
> Any ideas about the rear speakers saying none when selecting 2-way for the front speakers during setup.


If you have only two speakers in the back of the car, they have to be set up as sides during setup. If you have two more, then those would be rear. 

Measuring the ouptut voltage from the head unit can be tricky--if EQ is included in the head unit, then measuring at one frequency may not tell you accurately. For example, if you measure at 1k and there's 6dB of cut in the EQ, you'll measure half the voltage of the part of the signal that doesn't include EQ. Just stick some RCAs on the end of the wires and plug them into MS-8's RCA inputs. 

Low level inputs are 2.8V RMS max before clipping (using a 4V head unit is no problem)

High level inputs are 15V max--so the output of a "high power" radio or 90 percent of OE amplifiers will fall about 6dB under the max.


----------



## HK_M3

Andy,

How about the channels 5 & 6 not outputting on the MS-8? Any suggestions?


----------



## 14642

HK_M3 said:


> Andy,
> 
> How about the channels 5 & 6 not outputting on the MS-8? Any suggestions?


Have you set them up as "Sides" during setup?


----------



## HK_M3

Yep!


----------



## 14642

And nothing comes out of those speakers if you turn Logic7 off?


----------



## HK_M3

Nothing even came out of the speakers during output setup. We toned the speaker wires right at the ms-8 and they work.


----------



## 14642

try switching rears to outputs 3 and 4 and put outputs 5 and 6 on whatever you're using for a pre amp output. If they still don't work, PM me your phone number and we'll try somehting else.


----------



## Mark the Bold

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Something isn't right, unless that head unit has a really weak output. Check to be sure that the bass, treble, balance and fader are all set in the middle. Go back and "reset factory defaults" in MS-8's settings menu. When you get to "input Setup" choose "Skip input setup". You have an aftermarket radio that provides a full range stereo signal. No need for Un-EQ.
> 
> Se the amp gains for 2V and calibrate. Once that's done, try again. If you need more level, turn all the amp gains up by the same amount.


I think the fundamental problem is the headunit's weak output signal. I previously had a DQXS before the MS-8 and I think it doubled as a line driver which up-boosted my HU signal so thats why never put the volume anywhere near 30-35 before.

Regardless, I reset to factory defaults, skipped the input CD setup, put all the gains REAL low on the amp, and calibrated at -40db. 

Then I set the MS-8 volume to -8db, turned the gains up by the same amount and voila I can now be obnoxiously loud again. I still have to go 32/35 to do so which is still high, but I don't hear any noticeable clipping.

Thanks again Andy. I have to say you are doing an awesome job with product service on this webpage; I'm surprised you have time to do anything else.

My only last question: is there anyway I am damaging the MS-8 by sending such a hot signal from the Kenwood HU to the MS-8? Because I'd rather upgrade my $200 amp then have a bricked ms-8 6 months from now.....


----------



## 14642

Mark the Bold said:


> I think the fundamental problem is the headunit's weak output signal. I previously had a DQXS before the MS-8 and I think it doubled as a line driver which up-boosted my HU signal so thats why never put the volume anywhere near 30-35 before.
> 
> Regardless, I reset to factory defaults, skipped the input CD setup, put all the gains REAL low on the amp, and calibrated at -40db.
> 
> Then I set the MS-8 volume to -8db, turned the gains up by the same amount and voila I can now be obnoxiously loud again. I still have to go 32/35 to do so which is still high, but I don't hear any noticeable clipping.
> 
> Thanks again Andy. I have to say you are doing an awesome job with product service on this webpage; I'm surprised you have time to do anything else.
> 
> My only last question: is there anyway I am damaging the MS-8 by sending such a hot signal from the Kenwood HU to the MS-8? Because I'd rather upgrade my $200 amp then have a bricked ms-8 6 months from now.....


Nope, no damage.


----------



## nerofive4

Andy, I have not read the whole forum topic, but probably missed this in the manual, I have two mid bass in the rear but am only giving the option to set them as sides when executing the set up, is there a quick reason for this?


----------



## subwoofery

nerofive4 said:


> Andy, I have not read the whole forum topic, but probably missed this in the manual, I have two mid bass in the rear but am only giving the option to set them as sides when executing the set up, is there a quick reason for this?


Just set them as sides. Location of your rear speaker doesn't matter much

Kelvin


----------



## gokalper

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If you have only two speakers in the back of the car, they have to be set up as sides during setup. If you have two more, then those would be rear.
> 
> Measuring the ouptut voltage from the head unit can be tricky--if EQ is included in the head unit, then measuring at one frequency may not tell you accurately. For example, if you measure at 1k and there's 6dB of cut in the EQ, you'll measure half the voltage of the part of the signal that doesn't include EQ. Just stick some RCAs on the end of the wires and plug them into MS-8's RCA inputs.
> 
> Low level inputs are 2.8V RMS max before clipping (using a 4V head unit is no problem)
> 
> High level inputs are 15V max--so the output of a "high power" radio or 90 percent of OE amplifiers will fall about 6dB under the max.



Andy,

I spliced the inputs into a rca cable. Inner wire goes to positive and shielding goes to negative. Then plugged in fl to channel 1 rca and channel 2 to the fr.

Put the amp after the ms-8 input sensitivity to low with all speakers equal volume. Reset the unit to factory defaults.

I reran the calibration with head unit volume off and up to the max. It does not detect the calibration disc. Still says signal none no matter how high I turned the head unit. 

I proceeded to run the manual inputs and seat calibrations. I went with the stock options for all the crossovers.

Using the aux input i played songs form the ipod. It doesnt sound right at all. I turned off logic 7 and its better, i don't hear the resonance when piano tracks play. but it still sounds off. 

Now i tried the head unit, i can listen to music, so the signal is reaching the ms-8 - idk why it wont detect the calibration disc. Ok played it with logic 7 on and off. It sounds better when its off, but the music is way to colored due to factory headunit's curve not being flattened by the ms-8.

So i double checked my polarity on the speakers, polarity was fine. Dont know why logic 7 kills the music when playing piano tracks, such as ATB or classical. It makes a very weird resonance on those notes. 

My rear speakers i set as sides, which only does 1-way, still don't know why i can not have it set as rear as it should be and 2-way as i will want to run it active eventually. 

How can i fix the calibration for the headunit? I checked diagrams for my car and it looks like my headunit does not have a seperate amp, sends low-level differentially balanced signals that are amped withing the headunit. Its a 2007 g35 sedan with stock audio. 

As a comparison, i put my inputs direct to the amp. bypassed the ms-8. set my channel imput to 2 channels. Playyed music from the head unit and it was nicer than the ms-8 even though the eq curve was not flattened. Then i put my input from my ipod to the amp. Wow amazing,, yes no logic 7. But this sounded better than the ms-8 with logic 7 off or on. So it begs the question, am i doing something wrong? Is the headunit out of range for the ms-8? Maybe a software update will help. 

Ideally i'd like to have the ms-8 in play, cleaning theeq from the headunit so i can have simplicity and good music. 

Is there possibly an installer or anyone in San Diego that anyone knows with ms-8 experience? Hell I'd drive to Los Angeles if I know that someone can get this to work properly.

Andy any ideas, suggestions?


----------



## kaigoss69

^^^ You don't need to "calibrate" the signal from the HU, it is already flat. Skip input set-up. I bet your crossover settings are screwed up. Please list the crossovers for each channel pair. Also, it is more challenging trying to run active right off the bat. Is there any way you can hook up the passives and start off with that?


----------



## gokalper

kaigoss69 said:


> ^^^ You don't need to "calibrate" the signal from the HU, it is already flat. Skip input set-up. I bet your crossover settings are screwed up. Please list the crossovers for each channel pair. Also, it is more challenging trying to run active right off the bat. Is there any way you can hook up the passives and start off with that?


I'm sorry i dont mean to come off rude but are you kidding me? The stock headunit colors the music. If i did not need to do this then why would the ms-8 have the ability to un-eq the headunit. Why would people run a rf 360.2 to cleanup the sound before sending it to an aftermarket amp? If this was the case i would hear no difference between the aux input and the headunit input in terms of quality. I can make a recording of track if and show the differences if need be. But thats beyond the point, the point is the headunit calibration does not work. So what can we do to make it work. Do i have to get a LOC? Splicing into a rca doesnt work either. 

I always run my speakers active. The passive crossovers add extra circuitry and sound worse than active since it adds feed back. The passive crossover that comes with my speakers cut off at 3500 with a buttersworth 18db slope. with an adjustment of -3db or -6db option for toning it down.

The way i have it setup now is:
sub to mid - 12db slope at 80HZ
mid to high - 3500khz 24db slope
sides set to play above 60hz

no additional crossovers from the amp they are all off.
calibration was done at -20db with the gains as low as possible on the amp while keeping the speaker volumes for front and rear equal. I also tried it with gains higher and highest with -30db and -40db. Also with lowest gain and -20db calibration.


----------



## kaigoss69

^^^ You have a bose amp right? If so, I believe all processing (i.e. "coloring") happens inside the bose amp. The signal from the HU to the amp is flat. I could be wrong, but I'm probably not.


----------



## gokalper

kaigoss69 said:


> ^^^ You have a bose amp right? If so, I believe all processing (i.e. "coloring") happens inside the bose amp. The signal from the HU to the amp is flat. I could be wrong, but I'm probably not.


No bose amp, stock bare bone system. Here's the document for the AV system:
psedog.com/cars/fsm/g35/coupe/2005/av.pdf . Base Audio without navi - Page 73 Connector M81 comes out form the stock head unit.


----------



## Salami

gokalper said:


> I reran the calibration with head unit volume off and up to the max. It does not detect the calibration disc. Still says signal none no matter how high I turned the head unit.


Put the disk in your computer and see if you have an audio file on the disk. There are some disks out there that are missing the audio file.


----------



## kaigoss69

gokalper said:


> No bose amp, stock bare bone system. Here's the document for the AV system:
> psedog.com/cars/fsm/g35/coupe/2005/av.pdf . Base Audio without navi - Page 73 Connector M81 comes out form the stock head unit.


OK, I could have sworn you said you had a stock amp. In that case the HU has a small built-in amp and the signal is likely not flat. You may even have some funky volume-dependent boosting going on.

I think Salami had a good suggestion...


----------



## charlesg35

gokalper said:


> Andy,
> 
> I spliced the inputs into a rca cable. Inner wire goes to positive and shielding goes to negative. Then plugged in fl to channel 1 rca and channel 2 to the fr.
> 
> Put the amp after the ms-8 input sensitivity to low with all speakers equal volume. Reset the unit to factory defaults.
> 
> I reran the calibration with head unit volume off and up to the max. It does not detect the calibration disc. Still says signal none no matter how high I turned the head unit.
> 
> I proceeded to run the manual inputs and seat calibrations. I went with the stock options for all the crossovers.
> 
> Using the aux input i played songs form the ipod. It doesnt sound right at all. I turned off logic 7 and its better, i don't hear the resonance when piano tracks play. but it still sounds off.
> 
> Now i tried the head unit, i can listen to music, so the signal is reaching the ms-8 - idk why it wont detect the calibration disc. Ok played it with logic 7 on and off. It sounds better when its off, but the music is way to colored due to factory headunit's curve not being flattened by the ms-8.
> 
> So i double checked my polarity on the speakers, polarity was fine. Dont know why logic 7 kills the music when playing piano tracks, such as ATB or classical. It makes a very weird resonance on those notes.
> 
> My rear speakers i set as sides, which only does 1-way, still don't know why i can not have it set as rear as it should be and 2-way as i will want to run it active eventually.
> 
> How can i fix the calibration for the headunit? I checked diagrams for my car and it looks like my headunit does not have a seperate amp, sends low-level differentially balanced signals that are amped withing the headunit. Its a 2007 g35 sedan with stock audio.
> 
> As a comparison, i put my inputs direct to the amp. bypassed the ms-8. set my channel imput to 2 channels. Playyed music from the head unit and it was nicer than the ms-8 even though the eq curve was not flattened. Then i put my input from my ipod to the amp. Wow amazing,, yes no logic 7. But this sounded better than the ms-8 with logic 7 off or on. So it begs the question, am i doing something wrong? Is the headunit out of range for the ms-8? Maybe a software update will help.
> 
> Ideally i'd like to have the ms-8 in play, cleaning theeq from the headunit so i can have simplicity and good music.
> 
> Is there possibly an installer or anyone in San Diego that anyone knows with ms-8 experience? Hell I'd drive to Los Angeles if I know that someone can get this to work properly.
> 
> Andy any ideas, suggestions?


Does the G35 have seperates up front?


----------



## gokalper

kaigoss69 said:


> OK, I could have sworn you said you had a stock amp. In that case the HU has a small built-in amp and the signal is likely not flat. You may even have some funky volume-dependent boosting going on.
> 
> I think Salami had a good suggestion...


Yes the cd has audio, plays on the pc and the headunit if i bypass calibration during setup. 

Im not sure what you mean by separates upfront? The g35 has 4 channels comming out from the stock head unit, front l/r rear l/r and thats it. I am running front l/r into channels 1/2 on the ms-8 and running the fronts active from the ms-8 for the tweeter and amped for the mids.


----------



## charlesg35

gokalper said:


> Yes the cd has audio, plays on the pc and the headunit if i bypass calibration during setup.
> 
> Im not sure what you mean by separates upfront? The g35 has 4 channels comming out from the stock head unit, front l/r rear l/r and thats it. I am running front l/r into channels 1/2 on the ms-8 and running the fronts active from the ms-8 for the tweeter and amped for the mids.


If the front speakers are seperates, mid-bass & tweeter you have to sum the signal from both drivers in order for the MS8 to see a full range signal. From what you were describing it appeared that possibly you were only inputing the mid bass or tweeter signal therefore the MS8 could not detect a full range.


----------



## gokalper

charlesg35 said:


> If the front speakers are seperates, mid-bass & tweeter you have to sum the signal from both drivers in order for the MS8 to see a full range signal. From what you were describing it appeared that possibly you were only inputing the mid bass or tweeter signal therefore the MS8 could not detect a full range.


I think you misunderstood me. Headunit has front left and right summed into channel 1 and 2 on the ms-8. The ms-8 runs the front tweeters and mids as a 2way active system. The tweeters get amped from the ms-8 and the mids get amped form the JL AMP.


----------



## charlesg35

gokalper said:


> I think you misunderstood me. Headunit has front left and right summed into channel 1 and 2 on the ms-8. The ms-8 runs the front tweeters and mids as a 2way active system. The tweeters get amped from the ms-8 and the mids get amped form the JL AMP.


Help me clarify, you have a factory head unit, no factory amp after the head unit correct?
Four speakers in the front, left mid and tweeter, right mid and tweeter?
If yes, all four speaker wire pairs ( + & -) from the head unit need to be inputed to the MS8.


----------



## gokalper

charlesg35 said:


> Help me clarify, you have a factory head unit, no factory amp after the head unit correct?
> Four speakers in the front, left mid and tweeter, right mid and tweeter?
> If yes, all four speaker wire pairs ( + & -) from the head unit need to be inputed to the MS8.


That's interesting i thought it only needed two channels. So this should fix the way the audio sounds? Any ideas how i can get the cd calibration done? Maybe summing more than two channels will be enough for the ms-8 to detect the signal from the head unit? should i run all 8 channels inbound?


----------



## charlesg35

gokalper said:


> That's interesting i thought it only needed two channels. So this should fix the way the audio sounds? Any ideas how i can get the cd calibration done? Maybe summing more than two channels will be enough for the ms-8 to detect the signal from the head unit? should i run all 8 channels inbound?


No need for eight inputs, just input the speaker wires from the head unit (not rca's) front left mid to channel 1, front left tweeter to 2, front rt mid to 3, rt tweeter to 4. When you run the calibration cd you may need to turn the head unit volume near max. Once all inputs are found turn the head unit back down, MS8 down to about 1/2. Test signals should be only as loud as someone talking, otherwise you'll have no volume when the calibration is complete.


----------



## kaigoss69

Gokalper,

You have to provide the MS-8 with a full signal, otherwise it can't do what it is supposed to do. I think Andy recommends only using the front HU outputs as inputs for the MS-8.

Regarding your other question as to why you cannot set-up the sides as 2 way, are you aware that you only have 3 channels left, and a 2-way requires 4 channels?


----------



## gokalper

charlesg35 said:


> No need for eight inputs, just input the speaker wires from the head unit (not rca's) front left mid to channel 1, front left tweeter to 2, front rt mid to 3, rt tweeter to 4. When you run the calibration cd you may need to turn the head unit volume near max. Once all inputs are found turn the head unit back down, MS8 down to about 1/2. Test signals should be only as loud as someone talking, otherwise you'll have no volume when the calibration is complete.


My head unit only has front left, front right, rear left, rear left and rear right outputs. I can only run 4 channels into the ms-8. I'll try hooking up all 4 channels to the ms-8 and rerun calibration from the disc. I don't have any hope, as my max volume didn't even change the signal status with 2 channels inbound. But we shall see. 

Andy if this does not work could it be possible my head unit is out of range?


----------



## Ganderson

Andy,

Looking at the size of this thread I am amazed that in addition to your day job you have made such a huge effort to keep up with it. Others have said it, but THANKS again. I hope your bosses are aware of this thread and your extracurricular efforts to support your product.

That said, it seems that there would be a much more efficient way for DIYMA-type users to get answers and you (Harman) to share information regarding this product.

The first thing that is needed (IMO) is a more detailed breakdown of how this unit actually _works_. Yes, the average consumer will not care about this and will be content to just follow the manual, but you have to admit there is a huge group of more "power" users who would find this useful in getting the most out of the unit.

Without giving proprietary specs, it should be possible to show how the basic sections of the MS-8 interact with one another in _some_ technical detail. This could be in the form of a white-paper with accompanying flow-chart. This would probably eliminate a large % of the stupid-questions and incorrect assumptions that you have to deal with.

The second thing would be a more comprehensive troubleshooting guide/knowledge-base/FAQ. Not a free for all but more organized and with some official oversight.

Maybe a Wiki?

I don't know but for all of the great info in this forum there has got to be a more efficient way of organizing it. This mega-thread is evidence that the product requires something like this IMO.


----------



## gokalper

gokalper said:


> My head unit only has front left, front right, rear left, rear left and rear right outputs. I can only run 4 channels into the ms-8. I'll try hooking up all 4 channels to the ms-8 and rerun calibration from the disc. I don't have any hope, as my max volume didn't even change the signal status with 2 channels inbound. But we shall see.
> 
> Andy if this does not work could it be possible my head unit is out of range?


I ran all the channels from my head unit into the ms-8. tried both high-level inputs and low-level rca's. Im not getting it to recognize the calibraiton disc. After reading most of this thread im sure its got to be that its out of range. 

Andy can you please help me out with this?


----------



## 14642

gokalper said:


> I ran all the channels from my head unit into the ms-8. tried both high-level inputs and low-level rca's. Im not getting it to recognize the calibraiton disc. After reading most of this thread im sure its got to be that its out of range.
> 
> Andy can you please help me out with this?


Of course. Check your PM, please.


----------



## Neil_J

Ganderson said:


> Maybe a Wiki?
> 
> I don't know but for all of the great info in this forum there has got to be a more efficient way of organizing it. This mega-thread is evidence that the product requires something like this IMO.


That would be awesome but not sure it would get much attention once it was created. There's a great MS-8 FAQ that hasn't got much attention, but would answer a lot of the repeated questions here. (linked below)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq.html


----------



## Ganderson

Neil_J said:


> That would be awesome but not sure it would get much attention once it was created. There's a great MS-8 FAQ that hasn't got much attention, but would answer a lot of the repeated questions here. (linked below)
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq.html



That thread was a good idea, but ultimately turns into just another regular forum thread with tons of posts, questions, etc. linking back to this thread.

To be really useful and concise this would need to not be in a message board format but more of a Wiki or support page... Once this exists, it would be up to the forum community to direct all appropriate traffic to the Wiki, then the forum could be used for any discussions that fall outside the scope of the Wiki.


----------



## Neil_J

Ganderson said:


> That thread was a good idea, but ultimately turns into just another regular forum thread with tons of posts, questions, etc. linking back to this thread.
> 
> To be really useful and concise this would need to not be in a message board format but more of a Wiki or support page... Once this exists, it would be up to the forum community to direct all appropriate traffic to the Wiki, then the forum could be used for any discussions that fall outside the scope of the Wiki.


Would you be okay with a user-created wiki or would you want something more official from JBL? I can start one tonight if you think it would be helpful (hopefully someone would offer to help me fill it in).


----------



## Ganderson

Neil_J said:


> Would you be okay with a user-created wiki or would you want something more official from JBL? I can start one tonight if you think it would be helpful (hopefully someone would offer to help me fill it in).


I'm curious what Andy (and others) thinks about the idea and what format would be most useful.

I think a user created Wiki with official support from Andy would be great.

Sections could include:

Product Overview

Online User Manual/Install & Setup Guide

Application/Connection Guide for common (and uncommon) setups

MS-8 System Manual (provides more detail than user manual on controls/settings... what they actually do and how they interact with one another.)

FAQ

Comprehensive Troubleshooting Guide (closely linked with the FAQ)

Firmware History/Description

Link to Firmware

Firmware Update Guide

Pro Reviews

User Reviews

Tips & Tricks


----------



## gokalper

Neil_J said:


> Would you be okay with a user-created wiki or would you want something more official from JBL? I can start one tonight if you think it would be helpful (hopefully someone would offer to help me fill it in).


I think its a great idea. I was thinking we can add a section for user systems and settings.

Something that would include things like -

Car:
Head unit:
Amps:
Components:
Channels:
Crossover settings:
speaker locations:


----------



## subwoofery

Ganderson said:


> That thread was a good idea, but ultimately turns into just another regular forum thread with tons of posts, questions, etc. linking back to this thread.
> 
> To be really useful and concise this would need to not be in a message board format but more of a Wiki or support page... Once this exists, it would be up to the forum community to direct all appropriate traffic to the Wiki, then the forum could be used for any discussions that fall outside the scope of the Wiki.


Looks like you're very motivated... Wanna tackle this? 

Kelvin


----------



## Babs

Can I be respectfully facetious...

When conventional processors, user-set, like the Bit One only need a user guide, the MS-8 needs a wiki? 

(movie line reference)
It keys in the crossover points. It puts the headphones on. It calibrates the system. It puts the headphones back in the box. 

LOL!!


----------



## Ganderson

subwoofery said:


> Looks like you're very motivated... Wanna tackle this?
> 
> Kelvin



No more motivated than the next guy... just throwing out an idea.

... right back atcha.


----------



## Ganderson

Babs said:


> Can I be respectfully facetious...
> 
> When conventional processors, user-set, like the Bit One only need a user guide, the MS-8 needs a wiki?
> 
> (movie line reference)
> It keys in the crossover points. It puts the headphones on. It calibrates the system. It puts the headphones back in the box.
> 
> LOL!!


What's even funnier... 6000+ posts in one thread about using such a simple device... LOL LOL


----------



## 14642

Babs said:


> Can I be respectfully facetious...
> 
> When conventional processors, user-set, like the Bit One only need a user guide, the MS-8 needs a wiki?
> 
> (movie line reference)
> It keys in the crossover points. It puts the headphones on. It calibrates the system. It puts the headphones back in the box.
> 
> LOL!!


"It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again."


----------



## 14642

Ganderson said:


> What's even funnier... 6000+ posts in one thread about using such a simple device... LOL LOL


At at least 3000 of the questions could have been answered curtly by me typing, "read the owner's manual". 

But that would have sucked, because I wouldn't ave made so many friends.


----------



## Babs

My #1 go-to smartass statement:
"Check out the book that came with it about that Spanish guy, Manuel or something like that."

When I got the thing, I read the manual, then thought:
(in best Will Ferrell voice) "Mighty Thor's Hammer!! 240 pages?!?!" And this isn't the original 'other' thread I think I remember from like 2007ish! 

Granted at least 4000 posts back then was "When Andy, When when when wah wah when can I have an MS-8!!!!??!?!?!"


----------



## shexy

Hey guys I'm sure this issue has been address before but is anyone else having* too much bass*?

I swear i had my system calibrated perfectly but I had only done it for the driver's seat. I re calibrated for both driver & passenger and now my sub feels too boomy. I had to turn down the sub level on the display all the way down and its still too loud. I don't get it cos its never ever been like that before...

Any tips?

I have a JL 10W7 powered by a pdx 1.1000. The gain is all the way down too. 

HELP


----------



## Mark the Bold

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> At at least 3000 of the questions could have been answered curtly by me typing, "read the owner's manual".
> 
> But that would have sucked, because I wouldn't ave made so many friends.


Very true. As you said earlier, it requires some of us to unlearn some of the previous ways of tuning car stereos.

Appreciate the help though Andy. Once you explained how to "trick" the MS-8 into sending out as beefy a signal as it could to my amp, my problems are solved. By trick, I mean do sweeps at really low volumes with the gains very low on the amp then turn all the gains up by the same amount to get more headroom out of the Kenwood volume afterwards. That's more a Kenwood issue than anything.

I'm still getting distortions or artifacts in any music that has a lot reverb in it. I think this has more to do with my RS180 woofer and its finicky aluminum cone characteristics than the MS-8. I really, really noticed it driving around with my wife listening to the song " A Real Hero" from the Drive movie soundtrack. At around 0:40 I get really, really bad distortion coming from the woofers when the reverb kicks in. The sound resembles a spoon being shaken around in a tupperware container.

College feat. Electric Youth - A Real Hero (Drive Original Movie Soundtrack) - YouTube

I thought I had damaged the speakers so I swapped them out with new ones and identical problem. With the processing off the artifacts disappear but my system sounds like ass that way. I tried many different crossover points and slopes but to no avail. 

But its really a small ding against the much, much, MUCH improved overall sound of the system. I wouldn't trade the MS-8 for the world.

I asked earlier if anyone was using the RS180's with the MS-8 but got no answer. I'll just wait and see if someone else has the same issue over time.....


----------



## 14642

shexy said:


> Hey guys I'm sure this issue has been address before but is anyone else having* too much bass*?
> 
> I swear i had my system calibrated perfectly but I had only done it for the driver's seat. I re calibrated for both driver & passenger and now my sub feels too boomy. I had to turn down the sub level on the display all the way down and its still too loud. I don't get it cos its never ever been like that before...
> 
> Any tips?
> 
> I have a JL 10W7 powered by a pdx 1.1000. The gain is all the way down too.
> 
> HELP


Turn the gain on the amp up a little and recalibrate. Sometimes you have to fiddle with the level of the sub to get a good autotune.


----------



## 14642

Mark the Bold said:


> I'm still getting distortions or artifacts in any music that has a lot reverb in it. I think this has more to do with my RS180 woofer and its finicky aluminum cone characteristics than the MS-8. I really, really noticed it driving around with my wife listening to the song " A Real Hero" from the Drive movie soundtrack. At around 0:40 I get really, really bad distortion coming from the woofers when the reverb kicks in. The sound resembles a spoon being shaken around in a tupperware container.
> 
> College feat. Electric Youth - A Real Hero (Drive Original Movie Soundtrack) - YouTube
> 
> I thought I had damaged the speakers so I swapped them out with new ones and identical problem. With the processing off the artifacts disappear but my system sounds like ass that way. I tried many different crossover points and slopes but to no avail.


I just checked that out and it appears that much of that sound is in the 250Hz region. Please try a couple of things for me. If L7 is on, turn it off. 

When you hear the distortion, turn down MS-8's volume control to see if the distortion goes away. If not, then turn MS-8's control back up and try the same thing with the head unit's volume control. What I'm trying to determine is whether that additional 250Hz or so is causing some digital cliping because the EQ has boosted the region a bunch.

last question: Did you run input calibration (with the CD) or did you "skip input setup"?


----------



## Mark the Bold

L7 is off. I skipped input setup. I'm going out to try your volume test. brb


----------



## Babs

Now you mention it, I detect a slight 'ring' myself out of the driver side, very faint only with voices from radio. But I had figured it was a resonance rather than something from the ms8. I'm going to try some test tones to see if its isolated to which frequencies. I still think it's install or driver related in my scenario.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## Mark the Bold

Its definitely volume related. I tried both combinations (HU low & MS-8 high) and the opposite (HU high & MS-8 low) and whenever the net volume reaches a certain level I get the ringing / breakup. 

So I think it could be Babs is right on this and it being install related. However, I've had these speakers in the doors for 3-4 years now and never noticed this before. Have copious amounts of Raammat BXT, with a layer of ensolite and MLV. 

Man Car Audio sucks sometimes. I'd hate it if I didnt' love it.


----------



## 14642

Mark the Bold said:


> Its definitely volume related. I tried both combinations (HU low & MS-8 high) and the opposite (HU high & MS-8 low) and whenever the net volume reaches a certain level I get the ringing / breakup.
> 
> So I think it could be Babs is right on this and it being install related. However, I've had these speakers in the doors for 3-4 years now and never noticed this before. Have copious amounts of Raammat BXT, with a layer of ensolite and MLV.
> 
> Man Car Audio sucks sometimes. I'd hate it if I didnt' love it.


Do you have access to even a rudimentary RTA? Like even an iPhone app?


----------



## AAAAAAA

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> At at least 3000 of the questions could have been answered curtly by me typing, "read the owner's manual".
> 
> But that would have sucked, because I wouldn't ave made so many friends.



We love you Andy ....well certainly -I- love you.  

Here have some cred


----------



## Mark the Bold

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Do you have access to even a rudimentary RTA? Like even an iPhone app?


Unforunately no. My family lives in the dark ages of the Blackberry era. I have some 6.5" Arc Audio 6000 woofers, and this weekend I'll install them to see if it is indeed the metal cone woofers. I need to make new baffles because they won't fit in the RS180 ones I made so I can't do that right now.

But Andy, I'll level with you: I have more money than I have time (not trying to come off arrogant here) so I'm not going to do waveform analysis of a $40 woofer to remove a problem that might be a lot easier by just replacing it. I know that a lot of people over on tech-talk (parts-express) say the Dayton reference woofers have resonance issues, but only at frequencies over 2.5kHz so I'm a little stumped. Plus I never heard these sounds in the previous 4 years of using these woofers in my truck with pretty much identical equipment (minus the MS-8).

So having said all that, is there a woofer you KNOW that does not have any issues whatsoever with this MS-8 in a bandpass of 100Hz to 1.6kHz with 65w @ 4 ohm. I know for a fact that my tweeters and sub can cover the rest handily.

I'm at your mercy here. I'll pay anything.....


----------



## 14642

Mark,
The reason for the RTA isn't to determine if the speakers are bad, it's to determine whether there's a big hole in the car's response at a point where the speaker's response isinsufficient that causes MS-8 to boost more than the amp or the speaker will handle or that causes digital clipping. 

No big deal. Try the other speakers if you want. If not, I have another idea. I have a buddy in PHX who might be willing to help us out.


----------



## Neil_J

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Mark,
> The reason for the RTA isn't to determine if the speakers are bad, it's to determine whether there's a big hole in the car's response at a point where the speaker's response isinsufficient that causes MS-8 to boost more than the amp or the speaker will handle or that causes digital clipping.
> 
> No big deal. Try the other speakers if you want. If not, I have another idea. I have a buddy in PHX who might be willing to help us out.


I saw the same thing a few days ago when installing mine. It sounded like ****, so i got out the RTA, oscilliscope, and test tones. I was getting some really nasty harmonics (up in the kHz range) from a 100 Hz test tone, when the volume was up. If you look at it on a scope, you can see why.. It's hard clipped. It's better now, but it's taken days so far and I'm not happy yet. Yes I followed the instructions. Yes I actually red the thread. Yes I'll be able to get it to sound right eventually, but goddammit if anyone calls this box "easy to use" I'll drive over and smack 'em once or twice. Sorry if that sounded like a rant, this is a support group, right??


----------



## Babs

Mark the Bold said:


> Its definitely volume related. I tried both combinations (HU low & MS-8 high) and the opposite (HU high & MS-8 low) and whenever the net volume reaches a certain level I get the ringing / breakup.
> 
> So I think it could be Babs is right on this and it being install related. However, I've had these speakers in the doors for 3-4 years now and never noticed this before. Have copious amounts of Raammat BXT, with a layer of ensolite and MLV.
> 
> Man Car Audio sucks sometimes. I'd hate it if I didnt' love it.


I wouldn't suspect to say it's install related for your situation. I was referring to mine, maybe install-related, or possibly from the driver itself. My 'issue' sounds like a there's a crystal wine glass in the inside of the door or driver (I'm afraid to suspect mid or tweet but I'll troubleshoot over the weekend). When voices on radio stop quickly, the ring can be heard. I even wondered if my window or something else in the door do this. It'll be a fun one to nail down. Might even try to cross the mids lower to see if it's some high-midrange driver breakup.

On your anomoly:
If you've never noticed it before the MS-8 tune, I suspect there's a possibility that some EQ adjustment done by the MS-8 is exciting a certain freq range and thus the anomoly. If it goes away with processing defeated, that's a clue also. So it 'could' be a resonance that shows itself with the calibrated EQ tune maybe. You might even try to narrow down the freq and see if it can be erradicated in the graphic EQ for fun.

In my car such things can be heard with processing on because the auto EQ had squished all the nasty bloated mid-range nastiness from the poor car acoustics. So I find it attenuates the mids a good bit. There's a LOT of EQ going on there. It's a scary night/day difference with processing defeated.


----------



## Babs

Neil_J said:


> ..but goddammit if anyone calls this box "easy to use" I'll drive over and smack 'em once or twice. Sorry if that sounded like a rant, this is a support group, right??


You're actually right in one reqard definitely. With manual processors, you tell it specifically what to do. With the MS-8 it does it's thing, then you try to work around something not so nice or figure out how to get it to do something different. 

Hence one reason it would be nice to see at least what the MS-8 is doing to each channel if it could be shown on the display. That would be great for the next processor I think. I'd be fascinated to see just how much eq adjustment is happening on the channels alone, as well as T/A.


----------



## Neil_J

Babs said:


> You're actually right in one reqard definitely. With manual processors, you tell it specifically what to do. With the MS-8 it does it's thing, then you try to work around something not so nice or figure out how to get it to do something different.
> 
> Hence one reason it would be nice to see at least what the MS-8 is doing to each channel if it could be shown on the display. That would be great for the next processor I think. I'd be fascinated to see just how much eq adjustment is happening on the channels alone, as well as T/A.


Yep. Reminds me Of that Eddie Izzard skit where his computer won't talk to his printer. After hours of grief, he's like, "just tell me what the hell you need, and I'll do it. I just want to print a file!". And the computers like "well I'm not going to tell you! You'll just have to figure it out!"

Maybe a better analogy of the MS-8 is that it's like a woman... Complicated, fussy, expensive, and often defies logic. But you put up with it time and time again because of how happy it occasionally makes you


----------



## 14642

Neil_J said:


> I saw the same thing a few days ago when installing mine. It sounded like ****, so i got out the RTA, oscilliscope, and test tones. I was getting some really nasty harmonics (up in the kHz range) from a 100 Hz test tone, when the volume was up. If you look at it on a scope, you can see why.. It's hard clipped. It's better now, but it's taken days so far and I'm not happy yet. Yes I followed the instructions. Yes I actually red the thread. Yes I'll be able to get it to sound right eventually, but goddammit if anyone calls this box "easy to use" I'll drive over and smack 'em once or twice. Sorry if that sounded like a rant, this is a support group, right??


 
Smack away, dude. Every time I install one it works fine.


----------



## Mark the Bold

OK. I can get access to an iphone and install the RTA app. And when I find the clipping frequencies, what then? I will assume I will cut the EQ at those frequencies with the MS-8 to solve the problem.

The reason I suspected it was the driver, and will try the Arc components was because the RS180-4 is notoriously difficult to design a passive crossover for, as it is aluminum coned with a phase plug. 

Failing the RTA, I would very much appreciate your friends help with this if that is a possibility. Thanks.


----------



## 14642

Mark the Bold said:


> OK. I can get access to an iphone and install the RTA app. And when I find the clipping frequencies, what then? I will assume I will cut the EQ at those frequencies with the MS-8 to solve the problem.
> 
> The reason I suspected it was the driver, and will try the Arc components was because the RS180-4 is notoriously difficult to design a passive crossover for, as it is aluminum coned with a phase plug.
> 
> Failing the RTA, I would very much appreciate your friends help with this if that is a possibility. Thanks.


 
I just want to see a plot of the frequency response of the car with processing off to see if there's a spot that MS-8is trying to boost too much. Once we know that, we can plan a fix.


----------



## Ganderson

Neil_J said:


> I saw the same thing a few days ago when installing mine. It sounded like ****, so i got out the RTA, oscilliscope, and test tones. I was getting some really nasty harmonics (up in the kHz range) from a 100 Hz test tone, when the volume was up. If you look at it on a scope, you can see why.. It's hard clipped. It's better now, but it's taken days so far and I'm not happy yet. Yes I followed the instructions. Yes I actually red the thread. Yes I'll be able to get it to sound right eventually, but goddammit if anyone calls this box "easy to use" I'll drive over and smack 'em once or twice. Sorry if that sounded like a rant, this is a support group, right??


I definitely feel your frustration and agree.


----------



## Neil_J

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Smack away, dude. Every time I install one it works fine.


Everything I've ever designed, built, or programmed was easy for me to use, regardless of how easy it was for others to use it. I'm sure the product that you designed is easy for you to use. Noone knows it better than you! 

All I'm sayin' is, you don't tell people that an awesome, sophisticated piece of technology is easy to use... It gives them a false sense of security to skim or omit reading the instruction manual, because, hey, it's simple to use, right? That is my humble opinion as I've been in that seat before, when people had to learn to use my software tools at work. Tell them it is a powerful yet complicated tool, that like any other, must be used properly. That gets the gears turning in their head to pay attention and be a little more cautious.


----------



## Mark the Bold

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I just want to see a plot of the frequency response of the car with processing off to see if there's a spot that MS-8is trying to boost too much. Once we know that, we can plan a fix.


10-4. So at the risk at sounding like a retard, I want to make sure I get you what you need:

(a) I saw a few iphone apps for RTA. Is there something better locally I can get at a Fry's or Radio Shack? Anything in particular you prefer? I know we're not building a piano here, but like I said before, I want to make sure I get you what you need.

(b) Do I measure the frequency sweep of the MS-8 during calibration and give that frequency response graph to you? Or the problem music tracks in particular?

Please and thank you.


----------



## subwoofery

Neil_J said:


> Everything I've ever designed, built, or programmed was easy for me to use, regardless of how easy it was for others to use it. I'm sure the product that you designed is easy for you to use. Noone knows it better than you!
> 
> All I'm sayin' is, you don't tell people that an awesome, sophisticated piece of technology is easy to use... It gives them a false sense of security to skim or omit reading the instruction manual, because, hey, it's simple to use, right? That is my humble opinion as I've been in that seat before, when people had to learn to use my software tools at work. Tell them it is a powerful yet complicated tool, that like any other, must be used properly. That gets the gears turning in their head to pay attention and be a little more cautious.


Well the MS-8 *IS* easy to use. Just follow what's on the screen and let it do its thing. 

You (or others) not liking the result is different - that doesn't mean the processor is difficult to use. It may very well just be your taste. 

I've said this earlier in the thread already but the MS-8 is still a processor - meaning you have to optimize it's use in order to bring to life the full potential of your system. 
Knowing where to cross for eg. can really help the MS-8 do it's thing better. Levelling helps too but the MS-8 window is quite big so you don't have to level each drivers as close as 0.01dB for it to work. 

Kelvin


----------



## Ganderson

Mark the Bold said:


> 10-4. So at the risk at sounding like a retard, I want to make sure I get you what you need:
> 
> (a) I saw a few iphone apps for RTA. Is there something better locally I can get at a Fry's or Radio Shack? Anything in particular you prefer? I know we're not building a piano here, but like I said before, I want to make sure I get you what you need.
> 
> (b) Do I measure the frequency sweep of the MS-8 during calibration and give that frequency response graph to you? Or the problem music tracks in particular?
> 
> Please and thank you.



I know you weren't asking me, but the best basic RTA app I've used is called "Octave" by Alexander Wiltschko.


----------



## Ganderson

subwoofery said:


> Well the MS-8 *IS* easy to use. Just follow what's on the screen and let it do its thing.
> 
> You (or others) not liking the result is different - that doesn't mean the processor is difficult to use. It may very well just be your taste.
> 
> I've said this earlier in the thread already but the MS-8 is still a processor - meaning you have to optimize it's use in order to bring to life the full potential of your system.
> Knowing where to cross for eg. can really help the MS-8 do it's thing better. Levelling helps too but the MS-8 window is quite big so you don't have to level each drivers as close as 0.01dB for it to work.
> 
> Kelvin



Easy to use... it's the optimization part that is the problem. If the by-the-book approach doesn't work, then begins a series of guesswork and experimentation to get it to work correctly.


----------



## radarcontact

Ms-8 installed, worked great, had no problems.

Amp had problems tripping breakers (NX5), replaced it with Arc Audio XDi805. Installed that today.

Now ms-8 says INPUT NONE.

I have high level balanced from oem stereo going to ms-8 white/grey inputs -- soldered. 
I tried wiggling the plug, unplugging, re-plugging, etc. Nothing.

Here's my question, can I check to see if my radio is putting anything out through those soldered connections by putting my multimeter leads on the plug (pic)? If so, how? 









Cranking up the OEM HU volume doesn't correct it...still NONE.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## pionkej

Ganderson said:


> Easy to use... it's the optimization part that is the problem. *If the by-the-book approach doesn't work*, then begins a series of guesswork and experimentation to get it to work correctly.


Yes, but I would argue that you need some serious issues to be going on for the "by the book" approach NOT to work. And if that's the case, shouldn't you be fixing the issue instead of asking Andy to help you come up with a "workaround"? 

I'm not attacking, I'm asking honestly. I replaced my Zapco DC's with an MS8 and slapped it in my car over the course of a weekend. Following Andy's advice/the manual I was setup and tuned in under 10 minutes. I have 2-way on the sides, center, rear-fill, and sub. I have 12's matching up with 5.25's. I have part of the system powered by the MS8 (rear-fill & tweeters) and the rest powered externally. I have NO issues.


----------



## 14642

Neil_J said:


> Everything I've ever designed, built, or programmed was easy for me to use, regardless of how easy it was for others to use it. I'm sure the product that you designed is easy for you to use. Noone knows it better than you!
> 
> All I'm sayin' is, you don't tell people that an awesome, sophisticated piece of technology is easy to use... It gives them a false sense of security to skim or omit reading the instruction manual, because, hey, it's simple to use, right? That is my humble opinion as I've been in that seat before, when people had to learn to use my software tools at work. Tell them it is a powerful yet complicated tool, that like any other, must be used properly. That gets the gears turning in their head to pay attention and be a little more cautious.


Ok, I'll buy that. It's easier to use than an RTA, microphone, o-scope and developing the expertise necessary to achieve MS-8-like results with a manual processor, if you can find one with the necessary resolution. 

You're right though, "easy" may be the wrong word. I think when people hear that, their brain stops functioning as a device helper and turns into a device tester to see if it's really as easy as using a broom or a mop.

In any case, I'm sorry I've misled everyone...


----------



## 14642

Mark the Bold said:


> 10-4. So at the risk at sounding like a retard, I want to make sure I get you what you need:
> 
> (a) I saw a few iphone apps for RTA. Is there something better locally I can get at a Fry's or Radio Shack? Anything in particular you prefer? I know we're not building a piano here, but like I said before, I want to make sure I get you what you need.
> 
> (b) Do I measure the frequency sweep of the MS-8 during calibration and give that frequency response graph to you? Or the problem music tracks in particular?
> 
> Please and thank you.


Oh, sorry. Need a pink noise disc. I'll put a file on dropbox and post a link here later.


----------



## subwoofery

Ganderson said:


> Easy to use... it's the optimization part that is the problem. If the by-the-book approach doesn't work, then begins a series of guesswork and experimentation to get it to work correctly.


By hangging around the forum a little longer, you'll learn that "by-the-book approach" doesn't always work in *car audio*. Heck, even with a BitOne (or any other processor), the "by-the-book approach" won't always work... 

Kelvin


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## musicfan

musicfan said:


> I am now getting the runaway "jet engine" feedback *with the mic unplugged*.


Just wanted to give Andy a public "Thanks!" He sent me a new version of the firmware, and so far I have not experienced the dreaded jet engine feedback noise. Still working out a few kinks, but at least my system isn't trying to destroy itself!


----------



## Neil_J

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Ok, I'll buy that. It's easier to use than an RTA, microphone, o-scope and developing the expertise necessary to achieve MS-8-like results with a manual processor, if you can find one with the necessary resolution.
> 
> You're right though, "easy" may be the wrong word. I think when people hear that, their brain stops functioning as a device helper and turns into a device tester to see if it's really as easy as using a broom or a mop.
> 
> In any case, I'm sorry I've misled everyone...


I still think the MS-8 is a great product, sorry if that was put bluntly :/ My intentions aren't bad at all, I'm just trying to provide a theory behind why a handful of geniuses on this forum (you know who you are  ) have zero difficulty using it, while others struggle or give up entirely and buy something else.

I'm pretty sure most pilots would say that a Piper Cub is "easy to use," but my mom may disagree if she ever had to fly one in a pinch. A Linux geek may think Ubuntu is easy to use, but my grandma may never figure out how to get write access to a removable USB drive without editing the fstab by hand. There are all types of people out there that are on their own program. I've had to write UI's for factory tech's to use, and they never cease to amaze me at how they screw stuff up that I take for granted. Diversity is a good thing though..Celebrate it and adapt to it rather than telling those different than you to go back and rtfm.


----------



## Ganderson

pionkej said:


> Yes, but I would argue that you need some serious issues to be going on for the "by the book" approach NOT to work. And if that's the case, shouldn't you be fixing the issue instead of asking Andy to help you come up with a "workaround"?
> 
> I'm not attacking, I'm asking honestly. I replaced my Zapco DC's with an MS8 and slapped it in my car over the course of a weekend. Following Andy's advice/the manual I was setup and tuned in under 10 minutes. I have 2-way on the sides, center, rear-fill, and sub. I have 12's matching up with 5.25's. I have part of the system powered by the MS8 (rear-fill & tweeters) and the rest powered externally. I have NO issues.


Maybe, but I would argue that there are a lot of variables in every install (yes, including the users ears) making each one a unique situation. It would be naive to assume that by going "by the book" this magic box is going to produce equally pleasing and trouble-free results in all of them even without "serious issues".... this might be where the optimization comes in.

I'm sure that if I had had the same experience as you I would feel the same way. LOL.


----------



## Ganderson

subwoofery said:


> By hangging around the forum a little longer, you'll learn that "by-the-book approach" doesn't always work in *car audio*. Heck, even with a BitOne (or any other processor), the "by-the-book approach" won't always work...
> 
> Kelvin


No doubt... I'm learning that! haha.

I guess my point was that there is an added layer of guesswork with a device like the MS-8 since the non-Harman employed user isn't going to be privy to the inner workings of the HW/SW.


----------



## musicfan

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> First, where is the display mounted? It may be a problem with the RF reception due to metal or a metal film windshield. This is a problem occasionally.


Andy, can you give more detail about the metal/metal film windshield and other things that can cause problems with remote reception? I also have problems with the MS-8 not responding to commands from the remote. I'm already on my third battery.

My display is mounted under the a-pillar, next to the front quarter window on a 2010 Prius.


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## kaigoss69

^^^ some sort of EMF interference from all those electrical systems in your vehicle?


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## Lorin

I am certainly no expert, but do appreciate the "ease" with which the MS-8 does what it does. Nothing short of awesome in my limited experience thus far. The ability to change speaker angles, positions, etc (on or off axis), and then recalibrate in a short time, allows me to immediately hear the differences the moves have made. I have made substantial gains since on my "new" pillars that have given me the best sounding car I have owned to date. I have a relatively modest system that sounds much better (to me) than the monies that I have tied up in it this far. Thanks to Andy for your time and patience. I am happily on the MS-8 band-wagon.


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## radarcontact

On my first attempt, it was as easy as putting together Ikea!!! Lol

Now, probably through no fault of the processor, I'm not getting a signal to it. Once I do, it's Ikea time again, I'm sure.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Mark the Bold

Well Andy here goes. Borrowed a friends iphone and here is what I got. No doubt this RTA software and the iphone mic is junk, but hopefully this would get me started.

This was taken at the volume levels where I heard the breakup on the song I linked to earlier. The pink noise sample is from this website, which by all accounts is reputable Michael Knowles: Extras

I labelled the thumbnails processing on and off. Volume on the MS-8 is -10db. Volume on the HU is 31/35.

My sub is bandpassed 30Hz to 100Hz
My RS180-4's are bandpassed 100Hz to 1600Hz
Tweeters cover > 1600hz


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## 14642

Interesting. With processing off, the overall level of the tweeters is MUCH lower than with processing on. Looks like MS-8 is cutting the mids some and boosting the highs a bunch to compensate for the ndearly 35dB difference between, say...125Hz and 5kHz. The peak at 1kHz is probably contributed by a cone breakup mode in the mid and the reason it shows up in your RTA and isn't completely attenuated in by MS-8 is because it's too tall and because it's less prominent in the spatial average measurement than in your single mic measurement. 

Disconnect your tweeters and listen for the distortion. Then, disconnect your mids, reconnect the tweeters and listen for the distortion. I'll bet that it isn't only in the mids. 

My suggestion is pretty simple. Raise the crossover point between the mids and tweeters to something like 3k, 24dB/octave and turn the amplifier that drives the tweeters up a bit. Then, recalibrate. 

If this gets rid of the distortion, there may be a bit more work to do in shoring up the performance in the 1-3k range. The combination of a 7" driver mounted off axis and a and a 1" tweeter is a recipe for "reach problems" between mid and tweeter, and I think this may be the real issue. 

I'm hypothezing, so please bear with me.


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## musicfan

Mark the Bold said:


> No doubt this RTA software and the iphone mic is junk


Unfortunately, the iOS devices do have a steep HPF at 250hz on the internal mic and headset mic inputs, so the RTA apps probably won't give you anything useful below 250hz. There is a flat input available through the dock inputs, but I haven't found a cheap way to connect a mic to it. 

More info on the mic inputs for the iOS devices:
Microphones and iOS Devices | Studio Six Digital


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## musicfan

kaigoss69 said:


> ^^^ some sort of EMF interference from all those electrical systems in your vehicle?


Perhaps, but I'm not sure where to start looking. I get no perceptible noise in the audio system, but that doesn't mean something isn't causing RF interference. 

It probably doesn't help that I usually have an iPhone (3G, wifi, GPS, bluetooth), an iPad (3G, wifi, GPS, bluetooth), a laptop (wifi), and a Kindle (3G, wifi) in the car with me, and my HU has GPS, bluetooth, and AM/FM/HD tuners! (The radio reception in the Prius is abysmal, but I assumed that was because of the antenna.)


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## musicfan

I tried searching for this, but I couldn't find anything that directly applied. I seem to recall folks saying that higher mounting locations are better for the side channel speakers, but that to get the max benefit from the L7 processing, the sides need to play down to 100hz.

I'm wondering what is my best option for side channel speakers; I'm currently using the OEM (JBL) mid-tweeters in the top of the rear doors. They are about 2"-2.5" and appear to have an aluminum cone. They appear to be the same as those the OEM front speakers; and I have attached a pic of the signal that the factory amp was sending to those in the front, just to give an idea of their potential frequency range. I'm thinking I need to set the MS-8 for a 24db HPF at 200hz.

I also have a set of decent 6.5 three ways on hand that I could install in the bottom of the rear doors. 

My question is whether the additional low-end that the 6.5s would provide would make up for their lower mounting location. If I stick with the mid-tweets, how low can I get away with setting the HPF? Or, should I try to squeeze in a 3.5 coaxial in the tops of the doors?


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## Mark the Bold

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Interesting. With processing off, the overall level of the tweeters is MUCH lower than with processing on. Looks like MS-8 is cutting the mids some and boosting the highs a bunch to compensate for the ndearly 35dB difference between, say...125Hz and 5kHz. The peak at 1kHz is probably contributed by a cone breakup mode in the mid and the reason it shows up in your RTA and isn't completely attenuated in by MS-8 is because it's too tall and because it's less prominent in the spatial average measurement than in your single mic measurement.
> 
> Disconnect your tweeters and listen for the distortion. Then, disconnect your mids, reconnect the tweeters and listen for the distortion. I'll bet that it isn't only in the mids.
> 
> My suggestion is pretty simple. Raise the crossover point between the mids and tweeters to something like 3k, 24dB/octave and turn the amplifier that drives the tweeters up a bit. Then, recalibrate.
> 
> If this gets rid of the distortion, there may be a bit more work to do in shoring up the performance in the 1-3k range. The combination of a 7" driver mounted off axis and a and a 1" tweeter is a recipe for "reach problems" between mid and tweeter, and I think this may be the real issue.
> 
> I'm hypothezing, so please bear with me.


Well once again Andy, I owe you a beer. With a crossover of 2.5kHZ or above on the fronts and the problem is all but vanished. Still can hear a wee bit of distortion but nothing even close to the original problem. In my defense, the reference Dayton series are designed to be crossed low as the woofer breaks up at around 2.5kHz per Dayton, so I always kept the xo below 2kHZ for that reason. It may be the residual distortion I hear is now the woofers fault. 

I also think you were right in that I was underpowering the tweeters significantly, so the MS-8 was probably boosting the woofers so much to clip. I damn near have the gains to about the same level as the woofers which is intuitively dangerous in my experience with active systems. But the proof is in the pudding; with the processing off the pink noise is pretty much level so these tweets much really love the power. 

My greatest fear of this whole ordeal was that I would need to upgrade amps because my KS900.6 with 60w per channel on the fronts weren't cutting the mustard. MY access cab tacoma doesn't leave me a lot of room for multiamp setups + ms-8. The Ks900.6 and MS-8 fit beautifully under my two seats and out of the eyesight of the neighborhood punks...

Regarding the off axis, I really don't have a lot of options short of glassing some pods in the a-pillars. Later on I'll try my Arc 6000 6.5" woofers (apparently made by Rainbow) in lieu of the rs180-4 to see how they fare. They might perform better, but I originally bought the RS180's because of their off-axis performance being some of the best in the industry AND being aluminum coned which is reassuring out here in the desert.

I might need to bring the sub up to 30-120Hz but I'll see how they do first. But I'd really hate to get rid of the RS180's for this reason. They've been loyal friends for many years and on many installs I've done for friends and coworkers....

Thanks again Andy.


----------



## eviling

It works best probobly ampless the more vompoenets you add the more complicated the calibrate process becomes.


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## 14642

Mark the Bold said:


> Well once again Andy, I owe you a beer. With a crossover of 2.5kHZ or above on the fronts and the problem is all but vanished. Still can hear a wee bit of distortion but nothing even close to the original problem. In my defense, the reference Dayton series are designed to be crossed low as the woofer breaks up at around 2.5kHz per Dayton, so I always kept the xo below 2kHZ for that reason. It may be the residual distortion I hear is now the woofers fault.
> 
> I also think you were right in that I was underpowering the tweeters significantly, so the MS-8 was probably boosting the woofers so much to clip. I damn near have the gains to about the same level as the woofers which is intuitively dangerous in my experience with active systems. But the proof is in the pudding; with the processing off the pink noise is pretty much level so these tweets much really love the power.
> 
> My greatest fear of this whole ordeal was that I would need to upgrade amps because my KS900.6 with 60w per channel on the fronts weren't cutting the mustard. MY access cab tacoma doesn't leave me a lot of room for multiamp setups + ms-8. The Ks900.6 and MS-8 fit beautifully under my two seats and out of the eyesight of the neighborhood punks...
> 
> Regarding the off axis, I really don't have a lot of options short of glassing some pods in the a-pillars. Later on I'll try my Arc 6000 6.5" woofers (apparently made by Rainbow) in lieu of the rs180-4 to see how they fare. They might perform better, but I originally bought the RS180's because of their off-axis performance being some of the best in the industry AND being aluminum coned which is reassuring out here in the desert.
> 
> I might need to bring the sub up to 30-120Hz but I'll see how they do first. But I'd really hate to get rid of the RS180's for this reason. They've been loyal friends for many years and on many installs I've done for friends and coworkers....
> 
> Thanks again Andy.


Cool! 

Hey, you might also consider adding a small midrange to the front to make it a 3-way. Look for a little 2" or3" that you can use between 800Hz and 3kHz. That's fix this completely. If necessary, just put a cap on the tweeters (4.7uF) and run them in parallel with the new little mids. I rant about this 3-way kind of system all the time. It's designed to eliminate exactly this issue.

A pair of these would probebly do the trick: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-1124


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## 14642

eviling said:


> It works best probobly ampless the more vompoenets you add the more complicated the calibrate process becomes.


Hmmm...Certainly addding more components adds complexity, but so long as the basics are solid, it works pretty well.


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## alachua

Well, super super upset right now.

I went to do a recalibration after work today, as the calibration I put on Wednesday seemed to be pulling a bit hard to the passenger side. I hooked up the mic input, turned the car to accessory, then as I was navigating the menu, the MS8 started putting out a terrible shriek. I literally threw the remote it startled me so much. Turned off the ignition and saw a stream of smoke coming from my right side tweeter (the odd ball xt25 that was in the hot deals a few weeks ago.)

I disconnected the tweeter, then I tried resetting the unit twice, but was still getting noise from the passenger side. Noise goes away when the unit is muted. I'm really hoping it didn't take my Polk SR6500 woofer with it when the tweeter went.

Not really sure what to do now, since I don't want to risk damaging any components further.

-Cliff


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## radarcontact

radarcontact said:


> Ms-8 installed, worked great, had no problems.
> 
> Amp had problems tripping breakers (NX5), replaced it with Arc Audio XDi805. Installed that today.
> 
> Now ms-8 says INPUT NONE.
> 
> I have high level balanced from oem stereo going to ms-8 white/grey inputs -- soldered.
> I tried wiggling the plug, unplugging, re-plugging, etc. Nothing.
> 
> Cranking up the OEM HU volume doesn't correct it...still NONE.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Sorry to quote myself, but I've made some tests since my post:

My front channels, from my OEM HU, balanced differential, are only putting out 173 mv. The rears, though, are putting out 4v. Bal and fader are centered, the 2 OEM radio fuses are both still intact, etc. 

How does this happen? I guess my front channels are BLOWN? I don't get it, did I do something wrong? Are there any other explanations?? 

Can I use the rears to run the system, or is it unlikely that the rears are a full signal? This f**king sucks...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## kaigoss69

radarcontact said:


> Sorry to quote myself, but I've made some tests since my post:
> 
> My front channels, from my OEM HU, balanced differential, are only putting out 173 mv. The rears, though, are putting out 4v. Bal and fader are centered, the 2 OEM radio fuses are both still intact, etc.
> 
> How does this happen? I guess my front channels are BLOWN? I don't get it, did I do something wrong? Are there any other explanations??
> 
> Can I use the rears to run the system, or is it unlikely that the rears are a full signal? This f**king sucks...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It may help if you told us what OEM system you have. Generally speaking, if you have an external OEM amp and you are getting the signal before the amp, then the front and rear signals should be the same, i.e. flat and full-range. If the HU has a built-in amp however, it depends...


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## eviling

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hmmm...Certainly addding more components adds complexity, but so long as the basics are solid, it works pretty well.


agreed. and the methods needed to get to the same point with the complex systems arent at all that hard to learn, and it should easily be able to bring out some of the best atributes of the system, but its def not for you if your into very loud systems. i was never able to get to loud with mine, enough to drawn out the car but never the world aroudn it  if ya know what i mean.


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## radarcontact

kaigoss69 said:


> It may help if you told us what OEM system you have. Generally speaking, if you have an external OEM amp and you are getting the signal before the amp, then the front and rear signals should be the same, i.e. flat and full-range. If the HU has a built-in amp however, it depends...


It's BMW Harman Kardon system. Ok. That's good to know.

I've kind of tested a ton of stuff since I last got in this thread...basically all frikkin' weekend. 

I had the radio powereing the ms8 through the speaker level, but now it won't. It will through the line level though.

any suggestions on what might make the oem radio quit putting out enough power? I only came up with loose ground or power to the HU.


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## kaigoss69

radarcontact said:


> It's BMW Harman Kardon system. Ok. That's good to know.
> 
> I've kind of tested a ton of stuff since I last got in this thread...basically all frikkin' weekend.
> 
> I had the radio powereing the ms8 through the speaker level, but now it won't. It will through the line level though.
> 
> any suggestions on what might make the oem radio quit putting out enough power? I only came up with loose ground or power to the HU.


Sounds like you have an older BMW where the signal to the H/K amp is analog. I would recommend shooting a PM to Technic, he probably knows more about your OEM system than I do. But from what it sounds like, and assuming your OEM system uses an external amp, you should be ok with using the rear speaker outputs.

No idea what happended to the front signal, but perhaps you should be glad that there still is a rear signal...


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## radarcontact

kaigoss69 said:


> Sounds like you have an older BMW where the signal to the H/K amp is analog. I would recommend shooting a PM to Technic, he probably knows more about your OEM system than I do. But from what it sounds like, and assuming your OEM system uses an external amp, you should be ok with using the rear speaker outputs.
> 
> No idea what happended to the front signal, but perhaps you should be glad that there still is a rear signal...


Actually, when I swapped the rears for the fronts, the rears didn't show any power. It is the weirdest damn thing...it's like the ms8 is sucking up the power as soon as I connect to it.

bmw wiring 1.MP4 - YouTube

bmw wiring 2.MP4 - YouTube

bmw wiring 3.MP4 - YouTube


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## kaigoss69

radarcontact said:


> Actually, when I swapped the rears for the fronts, the rears didn't show any power. It is the weirdest damn thing...it's like the ms8 is sucking up the power as soon as I connect to it.
> 
> bmw wiring 1.MP4 - YouTube
> 
> bmw wiring 2.MP4 - YouTube
> 
> bmw wiring 3.MP4 - YouTube


If these are speaker level outputs, how about connecting a speaker to them? I wouldn't trust that VM 100% - it's the same one I use and I have gotten funky results as well at times. But anywho, did you not say your HU has line level outputs that DO work? If that's the case, that's the better signal for the MS-8 anyway so why even bother with the speaker outs?


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## AudioBob

Andy, please check your PM as I sent you one a few days ago in regards to some questions that I had about the MS-8 and my Lexus.

Thanks in advance.


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## radarcontact

kaigoss69 said:


> If these are speaker level outputs, how about connecting a speaker to them? I wouldn't trust that VM 100% - it's the same one I use and I have gotten funky results as well at times. But anywho, did you not say your HU has line level outputs that DO work? If that's the case, that's the better signal for the MS-8 anyway so why even bother with the speaker outs?


No, they are the lines that run to the factory amp which then goes active to supply the speakers with juice. We always pull from the signal path prior to the amp. However, I'm being told by someone I trust that the ms8 doesn't like BMW systems much, and I should go ahead and let the factory amp boost the signal, then run all of the amped leads into the ms8; let the ms8 sum it up and spit it out!

My HU doesn't have line level outs. I'm using the radio-out-to-OEM-amp bal diff lines AS line level outputs...even though they used to work as speaker level lines. That's my whole issue, what used to work great doesn't work at all anymore! Lol. Very confusing for me. 

(Not to pose a disagreement, but I actually keep reading, in this thread, that the speaker level inputs are less noisy and to use them whenever possible. I'm pretty sure AW said that a few pages back even. Maybe it's just when they are balanced differential, I don't know.)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## kaigoss69

radarcontact said:


> No, they are the lines that run to the factory amp which then goes active to supply the speakers with juice. We always pull from the signal path prior to the amp. However, I'm being told by someone I trust that the ms8 doesn't like BMW systems much, and I should go ahead and let the factory amp boost the signal, then run all of the amped leads into the ms8; let the ms8 sum it up and spit it out!
> 
> My HU doesn't have line level outs. I'm using the radio-out-to-OEM-amp bal diff lines AS line level outputs...even though they used to work as speaker level lines. That's my whole issue, what used to work great doesn't work at all anymore! Lol. Very confusing for me.
> 
> (Not to pose a disagreement, but I actually keep reading, in this thread, that the speaker level inputs are less noisy and to use them whenever possible. I'm pretty sure AW said that a few pages back even. Maybe it's just when they are balanced differential, I don't know.)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Well that's how I have mine hooked up (post Logic 7 amp) and it works great.


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## Technic

radarcontact said:


> No, they are the lines that run to the factory amp which then goes active to supply the speakers with juice. We always pull from the signal path prior to the amp. However, I'm being told by someone I trust that the ms8 doesn't like BMW systems much, and I should go ahead and let the factory amp boost the signal, then run all of the amped leads into the ms8; let the ms8 sum it up and spit it out!
> 
> *My HU doesn't have line level outs.* I'm using the radio-out-to-OEM-amp bal diff lines AS line level outputs...even though they used to work as speaker level lines. That's my whole issue, what used to work great doesn't work at all anymore! Lol. Very confusing for me.
> 
> (Not to pose a disagreement, but I actually keep reading, in this thread, that the speaker level inputs are less noisy and to use them whenever possible. I'm pretty sure AW said that a few pages back even. Maybe it's just when they are balanced differential, I don't know.)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


All E46 OEM HU (including the OEM Nav tuner) have line level outputs, balanced and flat. Use those with the MS-8 low level inputs while skipping Input setup -not needed with flat line level outouts as yours. 

The MS-8 high level inputs are not used with the OEM HU outputs. 

The OEM amp needs to be removed completely.

PM replied.


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## taibanl

taibanl said:


> Andy, thank you for the clarification on the sweep.
> 
> I just wanted to confirm that drawing the inverse would result in what I thought it would. I know you have posted a long explanation on how different eq filters produce different (and sometimes unexpected) results. I'd like the ability to have a flat preset, not necessarily for daily listing (though might use for classical), but flat for the sake of being flat. That's why I have 5 right?
> 
> I am crossing sub to mid @80/24
> Mid to [email protected]
> 
> Centers and rears @150
> 
> I know it gets frustrating responding to amateurs such as myself, believe me I am doing my best to soak up as much as possible from you and others here. Perhaps I should remain quiet until I implement the kaigoss mod (and go active on centers), but I tend to have the urge to post questions as they are sparked from other's posts. Additionally, I have other unrelated issues with the unit that I am trying to get more info on, so when I rewire it in my trunk it will be a one-time deal. (It's hard to access). At that time I will be doing an RTA with the help of a respected poster here.
> 
> Thank you for your time in addressing your product as it relates to my system. I really do hope to have it 100% as everything I read from the FAQ posts and those without issues, the product sounds fantastic.



While I am waiting to get back to my car and try the Kaigoss mod, as well as letting Andy do whatever thinking on the BMW mid bass issue...I've been reading the FAQ forum

One of the things that should have been obvious to me but was not, was the fact that I am not efficiently allocating power to my system...

I have a JL 600/6 running the under seats and fronts, (200w to mid bass, 75w to mid/tweet via passive cover

My center (Rainbow SL 100) is running only on MS-8 power. 
My sides(rear deck) are OEM 4" also running only on MS-8 power.

Thus I feel like I am wasting power to the rest of the system since it will be power limited by these internally powered channels.

So I wanted to get peoples' suggestions.


I plan to gain a channel when I move the Sub in with the mid bass channels, thus I plan on bi-amping the center. I figure this should give it some more headroom?
Should I amp the rears? Different speakers? I was thinking of trying to find something more efficient than the OEM Base speakers (I understand they are 4ohm, the BMW L7 speakers are rumored to be 2ohm? Anyone have any good ideas for a very efficient speaker for my sides?


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## akelu

When would be the ideal moment to take level measurements with an iphone app to do basic level matching for the tweeter/midbass gains?

* Im guessing its when:* you input the crossovers, then when its performing the white noise test, unplug the RCA's for the mids, test the volume, unplug the rcas for the tweets, test the volume, boost/cut the gain from there so they are about equal then proceed to the auto-eq? 

Is that right?
I'm not very confident in doing it by ear..

Also - Did Andy end up saying what volume to aim for? (speaking level).. i think 90db was thrown around? Did we get a certain answer for that?


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## kaigoss69

taibanl said:


> I plan to gain a channel when I move the Sub in with the mid bass channels, thus I plan on bi-amping the center. I figure this should give it some more headroom?
> Should I amp the rears? Different speakers? I was thinking of trying to find something more efficient than the OEM Base speakers (I understand they are 4ohm, the BMW L7 speakers are rumored to be 2ohm? Anyone have any good ideas for a very efficient speaker for my sides?


What do you mean by bi-amping? Adding a tweeter on the other channel? - I personally don't see the benefit over a simple passively-crossed component set-up.

Not having a tweeter in the center right now though is surely not ideal! You need to add one!

Are you having problems with system volume? I have the sides running off of the MS8 and it gets plenty loud. Sure they are 2 ohm but I don't think 4 ohm will make much of a difference. Others have had good results running the 4 ohm factory speakers off the MS8, some of them in similar set-ups as yours.

You know that the center should ideally receive at least as much power as the fronts, right? If I were you, I would consider running the L,R,C at 75W each, the underseats at 75W each and leave one channel empty. If you HP the underseats at ~ 70Hz I bet 75W is enough in most cases. Then let the sub do the rest of the work.

With L7, the center plays most of the vocals so you want it to be able to cover the entire frequency range AND have adequate power. Perhaps you should even bridge 2 amp channels into the center!


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## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> What do you mean by bi-amping? Adding a tweeter on the other channel? - I personally don't see the benefit over a simple passively-crossed component set-up.
> 
> Not having a tweeter in the center right now though is surely not ideal! You need to add one!
> 
> Are you having problems with system volume? I have the sides running off of the MS8 and it gets plenty loud. Sure they are 2 ohm but I don't think 4 ohm will make much of a difference. Others have had good results running the 4 ohm factory speakers off the MS8, some of them in similar set-ups as yours.
> 
> You know that the center should ideally receive at least as much power as the fronts, right? If I were you, I would consider running the L,R,C at 75W each, the underseats at 75W each and leave one channel empty. If you HP the underseats at ~ 70Hz I bet 75W is enough in most cases. Then let the sub do the rest of the work.
> 
> With L7, the center plays most of the vocals so you want it to be able to cover the entire frequency range AND have adequate power. Perhaps you should even bridge 2 amp channels into the center!


Right on all counts.


----------



## taibanl

kaigoss69 said:


> What do you mean by bi-amping? Adding a tweeter on the other channel? - I personally don't see the benefit over a simple passively-crossed component set-up.





kaigoss69 said:


> Not having a tweeter in the center right now though is surely not ideal! You need to add one!


My center is *COAX* (Rainbow SL 100 NG)

The plan was to give it two channels of MS-8 power (18w to the woofer + 18w to the tweeter) since I will be freeing up a channel that was previously feeding my sub. 

Andy - this was your recommendations 



kaigoss69 said:


> Are you having problems with system volume? I have the sides running off of the MS8 and it gets plenty loud. Sure they are 2 ohm but I don't think 4 ohm will make much of a difference. Others have had good results running the 4 ohm factory speakers off the MS8, some of them in similar set-ups as yours.


No I am not having system volume issues, but I do want more than 18w to my sides. 



kaigoss69 said:


> You know that the center should ideally receive at least as much power as the fronts, right? If I were you, I would consider running the L,R,C at 75W each, the underseats at 75W each and leave one channel empty. If you HP the underseats at ~ 70Hz I bet 75W is enough in most cases. Then let the sub do the rest of the work.


I will consider this, but...I like what I have now to the underseats, I would almost rather add another amp if it turns out I need to add power to the center.



kaigoss69 said:


> With L7, the center plays most of the vocals so you want it to be able to cover the entire frequency range AND have adequate power. Perhaps you should even bridge 2 amp channels into the center!


 Bridge two 600/6 channels? Bridge two MS-8 channels?

The SL 100 NG is as closely matched a coax center as I could have to the front (SL 210.25 NG). However, it doesn't handle quite as much power (but does want more than 18 which is why i was going to biamp it.

What do you thing about going to 2ohm rears?

Edit: As a general matter, I am not big on the center channel speaker, in fact from the driver's seat I have been quite happy with L7 OFF (and still preserving a good center image). I'm not saying I want it gone, either. I guess I got some bad advice from e90post where the MS-8 users recommended I get a center channel "just for fill," same with rears. 

Kaigoss, PM sent on a somewhat related topic.


----------



## radarcontact

Got the ms-8 working today...sounds fantastic, again!

I don't know what the deal was on the radio, but I used my AC LC6i LOC to boost the signal. I was going to reconnect to the factory amp then come off of it, but this way was just extremely easy to do, so I figured I would try it out first. It worked.

Here's what I did, if anyone has to do something similar:
Connected the HU to the LOC: FL/FR/RL/RR in and all summed, then 2 channels out via RCAs to the ms-8. Cranked the HU up to where I know it starts to get nasty. That is accomplished, scientifically, on the BMW by doing the following: take the volume knob and spin right, spin right, spin right, then back it off 4 clicks...perfect! 

Ran ms-8 setup and turned up the gain on the LOC until the display read OK OK OK.

You know the rest...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Mark the Bold

Just for my own sanity, I called Kenwood to see what the deal was with their weak-sauce line outs on their flagship HU's. I was reassured several times by a very competent tech guy that:

(a) Excelon headunits dont clip even at 35/35 volume
(b) @ Max volume the rca's should measure 3.75v < x < 4.00v

Desperate to prove him wrong, I ran a sine wave at 1kHz and measured the RCA's and lo and behold he was right. At 35/35 it was 3.8V.

That got me to thinking that I wasn't clipping the amp. I was clipping the MS-8. 

So for ****s and giggles, I turned all the gains on all my amps to the lowest and with pink noise with the tweeter being the lowest setting I turned the bass / mid gains up just enough to get it balanced with the pink noise. I then calibrated at -50dB. The sweeps were barely audible. Upon completion I turned up the gains by the same amount, but the most any gain was on each amp was 1/2 of max (sub amp  of course). I then cranked the MS-8 all the way up to -10dB. Lo and behold ALL clipping sounds are gone. It was absolutely line clipping the MS-8 not the amps. Or at anything over -50db I was clipping the microphones.

Retard of the year award = me 

PS: Sorry for taking up all your time on those earlier posts, Andy. Kenwood is a not insignificant maker of after-market headunits and this might help some other person with this problem.


----------



## tstien

Ordered my MS-8 yesterday. I've only read 150 pages of this thread so far. Is the bluetooth issue fixed? At one point it looked like JBL was working on a fix but then the topic just dropped.

My Honda Accord (08) has built-in OEM bluetooth that I'd really like to keep.


----------



## akelu

Okay.. I think im about ready to do my first proper tune with all speakers. Heres my battle plan.

1. Pray to the speaker gods
2. Reset MS-8 to factory default
3. Ms-8 Set to -40db
4. Set mid-bass to 2v (matches headunit)
5. Use RTA to level match tweets and rears to midbass volume
6. Set sub gains to slightly above talking level _(Using andys workaround, assigning sub to front low as opposed to subwoofer, advised a bit more volume on this is reccomended when you do this as theres not much detail in the sub-range when doing the timealigning/eq sweeps)_
7. Run the tune
8. Ms-8 set to -8db
9. Head unit set to 75% volume
10. Bring the front gains up equal amounts until reasonably loud
11. Bring up the "low" (sub) gain to as loud as i can while maintaining bass upfront (am a basshead)

What do you think? Any improvements?


----------



## 14642

Mark the Bold said:


> Just for my own sanity, I called Kenwood to see what the deal was with their weak-sauce line outs on their flagship HU's. I was reassured several times by a very competent tech guy that:
> 
> (a) Excelon headunits dont clip even at 35/35 volume
> (b) @ Max volume the rca's should measure 3.75v < x < 4.00v
> 
> Desperate to prove him wrong, I ran a sine wave at 1kHz and measured the RCA's and lo and behold he was right. At 35/35 it was 3.8V.
> 
> That got me to thinking that I wasn't clipping the amp. I was clipping the MS-8.
> 
> So for ****s and giggles, I turned all the gains on all my amps to the lowest and with pink noise with the tweeter being the lowest setting I turned the bass / mid gains up just enough to get it balanced with the pink noise. I then calibrated at -50dB. The sweeps were barely audible. Upon completion I turned up the gains by the same amount, but the most any gain was on each amp was 1/2 of max (sub amp  of course). I then cranked the MS-8 all the way up to -10dB. Lo and behold ALL clipping sounds are gone. It was absolutely line clipping the MS-8 not the amps. Or at anything over -50db I was clipping the microphones.
> 
> Retard of the year award = me
> 
> PS: Sorry for taking up all your time on those earlier posts, Andy. Kenwood is a not insignificant maker of after-market headunits and this might help some other person with this problem.


Cool.


----------



## 14642

tstien said:


> Ordered my MS-8 yesterday. I've only read 150 pages of this thread so far. Is the bluetooth issue fixed? At one point it looked like JBL was working on a fix but then the topic just dropped.
> 
> My Honda Accord (08) has built-in OEM bluetooth that I'd really like to keep.


There are several work-arounds and a software update that helps in some very specific circumstances. 

The basic problem is that DSP processors often introduce a signal delay (takes a while for all the hamsters with their calculators inside to crunch all the numbers) and BT echo cancellation algorithms ARE their own carefully calculated delay loop. With some of them, the delay introduced by the new DSP breaks the echo cancellation loop. 

Install your MS-8 according to the instructions, and if you have issues, I'll help you work through them. 

Your car may also have a road noise cancellation microphone. It's important to unplug that. Please PM me the trim level and I'll look for the location of that mic for you.


----------



## FartinInTheTub

In order to retain my rear fill I am going to run a Coustic XM-3 crossover between my mids and tweeters. I want to confirm that using the crossover's lowpass in conjunction with the MS8's highpass I will then be able to bandpass my mids. I was going to purchase a crossover with bandpass capabilities but have since been adviced by one member that my Coustic XM3 would be all I need. Please advise, Thanks. 

PS. I will most likely be running my mids from 300-6k and the tweeters from 6k and up.


----------



## pm179

Hi All,

I promise I will read through this thread eventually, but I have a few specific questions I'd like to ask as I'm about to install this unit in my car (2009 accord EX-L with sub)

I read the instructions and understand the ms-8 _can accept_ either low level inputs from RCA or speaker level input* but it doesn't say which one is better.* 

Does the processor produce the same quality output from either type of input? Or should I find someone who can trace the differential balanced outputs from my factory HU and solder in RCA's for me??? I would like to begin my system with the better source signals

Second ... if I go the speaker level route for input, does it matter if I grab the full range signal going to the rears? I see the instructions say to use the inputs from the front L/R but is this critical if the signal is full range @ rear speakers?? Install would be easier too since signal & processor are in the trunk

Those are the 2 main items I need info on before starting my install ...

Thank you for all of your help (past & future posts ;-)

Michael in MD


----------



## radarcontact

pm179 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I promise I will read through this thread eventually, but I have a few specific questions I'd like to ask as I'm about to install this unit in my car (2009 accord EX-L with sub)
> 
> I read the instructions and understand the ms-8 _can accept_ either low level inputs from RCA or speaker level input* but it doesn't say which one is better.*
> 
> Does the processor produce the same quality output from either type of input? Or should I find someone who can trace the differential balanced outputs from my factory HU and solder in RCA's for me??? I would like to begin my system with the better source signals
> 
> Second ... if I go the speaker level route for input, does it matter if I grab the full range signal going to the rears? I see the instructions say to use the inputs from the front L/R but is this critical if the signal is full range @ rear speakers?? Install would be easier too since signal & processor are in the trunk
> 
> Those are the 2 main items I need info on before starting my install ...
> 
> Thank you for all of your help (past & future posts ;-)
> 
> Michael in MD


I'll get you started, but I'm no expert. I do have a working ms-8 though! Lol!

First, I have heard Andy (the ms-8 God of Gods...he built the damn thing) say that the speaker level inputs would be the most quiet, better noise rejection. You can find that within the last 10-15 pages or so. I had a problem with the unit "finding" a strong enough non-amped signal. Hopefully you won't have that issue.

I don't think the ms-8 cares where it gets a full signal from, as long as its a full signal. It wont know if it's front or rear as long as its full signal. Run those into the unit as your flour and water...the ms-8 will make you bread from them!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## pm179

radarcontact said:


> I'll get you started, but I'm no expert. I do have a working ms-8 though! Lol!
> 
> First, I have heard Andy (the ms-8 God of Gods...he built the damn thing) say that the speaker level inputs would be the most quiet, better noise rejection. You can find that within the last 10-15 pages or so. I had a problem with the unit "finding" a strong enough non-amped signal. Hopefully you won't have that issue.
> 
> I don't think the ms-8 cares where it gets a full signal from, as long as its a full signal. It wont know if it's front or rear as long as its full signal. Run those into the unit as your flour and water...the ms-8 will make you bread from them!



Nice!!! I will definitely go back 15-20 pages and try to find the details ... if its true I'm golden ;-)

I have read on the DA website that the output from HU is 4 channels full range plus 5th sub channel ... so I assume that it gets passed through the factory amp that way ... and I've only read about crossovers on the front speakers (no tweeter on rears)

If it doesn't work out grabbing signal from rear speakers its not too big a deal ... just an extra run of speaker wire from the fronts I guess.

Thanks very much,

Michael in MD


----------



## tstien

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> There are several work-arounds and a software update that helps in some very specific circumstances.
> 
> The basic problem is that DSP processors often introduce a signal delay (takes a while for all the hamsters with their calculators inside to crunch all the numbers) and BT echo cancellation algorithms ARE their own carefully calculated delay loop. With some of them, the delay introduced by the new DSP breaks the echo cancellation loop.
> 
> Install your MS-8 according to the instructions, and if you have issues, I'll help you work through them.
> 
> Your car may also have a road noise cancellation microphone. It's important to unplug that. Please PM me the trim level and I'll look for the location of that mic for you.


Thanks Andy, I have the EX-L with navigation which has the ANC mics you are referring to. I've got the locations nailed already from reading the driveaccord.com forums. 

I'll let you know if I run into any problems. This is my first install ever, so I expect it might be a few weeks till I know if I have a delay. I'm VERY excited to hear how all of this sounds. I don't have great tuning ears overall and I'm sticking to mostly OEM non "ideal" factory locations. I expect this MS-8 is going to rock my world.


----------



## pm179

> Nice!!! I will definitely go back 15-20 pages and try to find the details ... if its true I'm golden


Well I went back and re-read but didn't find the conversation about the advantages of one source signal over the other diff balanced before amp or speaker level after]. Since I have no experience soldering RCA's AND since the ms8 is designed to use speaker level inputs AND since it is easiest for me to do myself, that's what I'll do first 

However, I did find a link to a FAQ thread while reading ... and I have a new question ...

I assumed that using the active x-overs and using a separate amp channel built into the ms8 to drive the tweeters would result in big benefits due to the ability to time align & EQ each driver separately. But, I just read that there is very little benefit to this and using passive x-overs between mid & tweet is just as [almost as] good ... *is that right???*

Stock 2009 EX-L accord with 6 1/2" in bottom of doors & tweet in sail panels

My MS-8 just arrived and I'm eager to get started on the install ... but no reason to run extra wires for stock system if there is no benefit in doing so

Thanks again


----------



## taibanl

pm179 said:


> Well I went back and re-read but didn't find the conversation about the advantages of one source signal over the other diff balanced before amp or speaker level after]. Since I have no experience soldering RCA's AND since the ms8 is designed to use speaker level inputs AND since it is easiest for me to do myself, that's what I'll do first
> 
> However, I did find a link to a FAQ thread while reading ... and I have a new question ...
> 
> I assumed that using the active x-overs and using a separate amp channel built into the ms8 to drive the tweeters would result in big benefits due to the ability to time align & EQ each driver separately. But, I just read that there is very little benefit to this and using passive x-overs between mid & tweet is just as [almost as] good ... *is that right???*
> 
> Stock 2009 EX-L accord with 6 1/2" in bottom of doors & tweet in sail panels
> 
> My MS-8 just arrived and I'm eager to get started on the install ... but no reason to run extra wires for stock system if there is no benefit in doing so
> 
> Thanks again


Given that your mids are low in the door and tweets are in the sail, I would think you DO have a benefit in separate MS-8 TA'd channels. If they were closer together, I would say no. For instance, in my case, they are about 6-9 inches apart so they share a channel. 

My inclination would be to use the balanced outputs, not the speaker but there are many on this thread who know much more than me.


----------



## Frank Drebin

4" center channel. Is it too small? Any suggestions?

Factory HU
Lots of power available (Massive NX2 bridged, ~200W RMS)
XR Duo fronts, driven off Massive HD1600 (160X4) Dodge Ram, XR3m's in the dash corners, XR6.5's in the doors. Factory had 3 identical speakers in the dash, can be modified for a 4" I believe.

If it's not ideal, I just won't use a center. Is a 4" worth it? It's about as large as I can fit, while staying stealth. I don't think the 3" XR3M could play much lower than 200Hz, and the XR6.5M's are crossed @ 70Hz.

Thanks!


----------



## nick650

a proper full range 4" will work


----------



## subwoofery

Frank Drebin said:


> 4" center channel. Is it too small? Any suggestions?
> 
> Factory HU
> Lots of power available (Massive NX2 bridged, ~200W RMS)
> XR Duo fronts, driven off Massive HD1600 (160X4) Dodge Ram, XR3m's in the dash corners, XR6.5's in the doors. Factory had 3 identical speakers in the dash, can be modified for a 4" I believe.
> 
> If it's not ideal, I just won't use a center. Is a 4" worth it? It's about as large as I can fit, while staying stealth. I don't think the 3" XR3M could play much lower than 200Hz, and the XR6.5M's are crossed @ 70Hz.
> 
> Thanks!


I'm just gonna say that your center channel is the driver that will play the *most* information - so in my opinion, it is the most important part of your system and with an MS-8, I would use the best driver in the center. 

Kelvin


----------



## 14642

nick650 said:


> a proper full range 4" will work


A tweeter is important in the center channel. I'm not going to type another 1000 word missive about dispersion, directivity and the crock of BS that is this whole "tweeterless" fad. I will say, however, that besides cost, there is NO benefit to eliminating the tweeter.

I posted "right on all counts" above, and gave someone the impression that bi-amping the center channel was a bad idea. Here's some clarification: If you have an extra channel, bi-amping the center is a way to use the extra channel. It isn't necessary, but if I had an additional channel and nothing to do with it, that's what I'd do. In fact, in my car, every voice coil has a channel--and I have 24 channels (but no MS-8).


----------



## taibanl

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I posted "right on all counts" above, and gave someone the impression that bi-amping the center channel was a bad idea. Here's some clarification: If you have an extra channel, bi-amping the center is a way to use the extra channel. It isn't necessary, but if I had an additional channel and nothing to do with it, that's what I'd do. In fact, in my car, every voice coil has a channel--and I have 24 channels (but no MS-8).


Thanks very much for that important clarification.

In my case, my coax center (Rainbow SL 100) doesn't handle as much power (30w) as will the front doors (Rainbow SLC 210.25) (60w). At present I'd like not to make speaker changes (unless someone has a great idea for a better center). 

That being said, I agree with Kaigoss, youself, and others that it SHOULD be the better speaker...so I guess my compromise is to make it as good as I can.

I'm guessing the MS-8 crossover will properly bandpass/hi-pass the signal BEFORE the power amp section? From what I read on Bi-amping this is the only way to get the real benefit from a Bi-amp; the result being I will get more for my money (distortion free power, watt for watt) as compared to the single channel. 

From what I read on Bi-amp _theory_, the 18w in a Biamp configuration, yields the distortion free equivalent of 4x 18w (72w) in a single channel, as the power-amp is not required to push both the LF&HF signal simultaneously (which would place an additive load on the power amp). 1 peak unit of midrange, plus 1 peak unit of high range, equals a voltage of two units on the amp). 

Since the voltage is halved in the bi-amp configuration vs the single channel, the power requirement is thus cut by a factor of 4.

I realize this is more applicable to a midbass to midrange load instead of a midrange to HF load, and that the power advantages above are the theoretical _maximums_ (and coincidentally the gains exist more with respect to PEAK power, not RMS power), but I want to ensure my thought process is at least correct. Especially to the extent that the signal is amplified only in the selected crossover band. I've found no schematic of the MS-8's internals that would confirm this.


----------



## 14642

taibanl said:


> Thanks very much for that important clarification.
> 
> In my case, my coax center (Rainbow SL 100) doesn't handle as much power (30w) as will the front doors (Rainbow SLC 210.25) (60w). At present I'd like not to make speaker changes (unless someone has a great idea for a better center).
> 
> That being said, I agree with Kaigoss, youself, and others that it SHOULD be the better speaker...so I guess my compromise is to make it as good as I can.
> 
> I'm guessing the MS-8 crossover will properly bandpass/hi-pass the signal BEFORE the power amp section? From what I read on Bi-amping this is the only way to get the real benefit from a Bi-amp; the result being I will get more for my money (distortion free power, watt for watt) as compared to the single channel.
> 
> From what I read on Bi-amp _theory_, the 18w in a Biamp configuration, yields the distortion free equivalent of 4x 18w (72w) in a single channel, as the power-amp is not required to push both the LF&HF signal simultaneously (which would place an additive load on the power amp). 1 peak unit of midrange, plus 1 peak unit of high range, equals a voltage of two units on the amp).
> 
> Since the voltage is halved in the bi-amp configuration vs the single channel, the power requirement is thus cut by a factor of 4.
> 
> I realize this is more applicable to a midbass to midrange load instead of a midrange to HF load, and that the power advantages above are the theoretical _maximums_ (and coincidentally the gains exist more with respect to PEAK power, not RMS power), but I want to ensure my thought process is at least correct. Especially to the extent that the signal is amplified only in the selected crossover band. I've found no schematic of the MS-8's internals that would confirm this.


 
Yes, the filtering is before the amplifier. It's a digital filter, so it's also before the D/A convertor. 

The voltage units postulate seems fishy to me. I'm not an amplifier design expert, but I have NEVER experienced anything that would lead me to believe that there's a 6dB across-the-board benefit to bi-amping. According to this theory, I should have a 12dB advantage in my car and clearly my car is NOT equivalent to a pair of speakers (that can handle the power) driven by a 1000 watt amplifier. No way, no how, not on this planet nor on any other nor in any alternate reality that has ever been written about by any author tripping on 'shrooms or LSD.


----------



## taibanl

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, the filtering is before the amplifier. It's a digital filter, so it's also before the D/A convertor.
> 
> The voltage units postulate seems fishy to me. I'm not an amplifier design expert, but I have NEVER experienced anything that would lead me to believe that there's a 6dB across-the-board benefit to bi-amping. According to this theory, I should have a 12dB advantage in my car and clearly my car is NOT equivalent to a pair of speakers (that can handle the power) driven by a 1000 watt amplifier. No way, no how, not on this planet nor on any other nor in any alternate reality that has ever been written about by any author tripping on 'shrooms or LSD.


Being in the military, I know nothing about shrooms or LSD, However, maybe I didn't accurately relay the thoughts of the article's author...Here is a key passage 



Rod Elliot said:


> Bi-Amping: Actual Vs Effective Power It must be explained here that the *3dB effective power increase is the absolute maximum* that can be obtained. In most cases it will be less - I have examined sections of music where the power gain was less than 1dB, and it can be reasonably safely assumed that the *real gain will lie somewhere between 1-2dB in most cases*. The real figure depends a lot on the type of music, the actual crossover frequency, and the peak to average ratio of the two separated signals.


The 3dB is because the RMS effective power is at most, doubled. The 4x effective peak power is because:

A PEAK HF voltage would "ride the wave" of a PEAK LF voltage...
Thus by separating, you are not adding the peaks, so you are halving the voltage.
Increasing voltage requires additional power as a square of that voltage increase, so a PEAK voltage of 2 units requires a PEAK power of 4 units.

The way I sum this up in _my_ simple brain is you get your nominal (1-2dB, max 3dB) effective power increase, which is great, but you get a bonus of having significantly greater headroom, and stay clear of clipping in the most dynamic points of your source audio.


----------



## minbari

taibanl said:


> Thanks very much for that important clarification.
> 
> In my case, my coax center (Rainbow SL 100) doesn't handle as much power (30w) as will the front doors (Rainbow SLC 210.25) (60w). At present I'd like not to make speaker changes (unless someone has a great idea for a better center).
> 
> That being said, I agree with Kaigoss, youself, and others that it SHOULD be the better speaker...so I guess my compromise is to make it as good as I can.
> 
> I'm guessing the MS-8 crossover will properly bandpass/hi-pass the signal BEFORE the power amp section? From what I read on Bi-amping this is the only way to get the real benefit from a Bi-amp; the result being I will get more for my money (distortion free power, watt for watt) as compared to the single channel.
> 
> *From what I read on Bi-amp theory, the 18w in a Biamp configuration, yields the distortion free equivalent of 4x 18w (72w) in a single channel, as the power-amp is not required to push both the LF&HF signal simultaneously (which would place an additive load on the power amp). 1 peak unit of midrange, plus 1 peak unit of high range, equals a voltage of two units on the amp). *
> 
> Since the voltage is halved in the bi-amp configuration vs the single channel, the power requirement is thus cut by a factor of 4.
> 
> I realize this is more applicable to a midbass to midrange load instead of a midrange to HF load, and that the power advantages above are the theoretical _maximums_ (and coincidentally the gains exist more with respect to PEAK power, not RMS power), but I want to ensure my thought process is at least correct. Especially to the extent that the signal is amplified only in the selected crossover band. I've found no schematic of the MS-8's internals that would confirm this.


unfortunately there is nothing in ohms law, watts law or any law that would support that. amplifiers dont care if they are being asked to drive HF and LF at the same time, they simply reproduce signals. the idea that simple bi-amping will get you a free doubling of power is silly. if this were the case, then everyone would do just for the free power. (but as the law of conservation of power states, it will never work)

if you are talking about bi-amping with passives, then this whole argument goes out the window since the passive filters out signals that the amplifier already produced. in some ways it is less efficient than an active setup.


----------



## taibanl

minbari said:


> unfortunately there is nothing in ohms law, watts law or any law that would support that. amplifiers dont care if they are being asked to drive HF and LF at the same time, they simply reproduce signals. the idea that simple bi-amping will get you a free doubling of power is silly. if this were the case, then everyone would do just for the free power. (but as the law of conservation of power states, it will never work)


I don't know, all this stuff is over my nugget, please see the posted link if you think the guy is FoS



minbari said:


> if you are talking about bi-amping with passives, then this whole argument goes out the window since the passive filters out signals that the amplifier already produced. in some ways it is less efficient than an active setup.


We are talking active, hence the reason I asked Andy if the MS-8 filters are before the amp.


----------



## taibanl

taibanl said:


> From what I read on Bi-amp _theory_, the 18w in a Biamp configuration, yields the distortion free equivalent of 4x 18w (72w) in a single channel, as the power-amp is not required to push both the LF&HF signal simultaneously (which would place an additive load on the power amp). 1 peak unit of midrange, plus 1 peak unit of high range, equals a voltage of two units on the amp).


One flaw in this passage, is the 18w I believe is an RMS figure, The 4x effective power applies only to PEAK power required. 

For RMS, at MOST you get a doubling of power (3dB)


----------



## minbari

I read 1/2 of what he said and couldnt not really beleive it. his rant on passive crossovers is laughable. passive crossovers dont consume power. Certainly not 1/2 of it. If they did, then they would get amazingly hot. take a simple 12 dB/oct on a 150W/ch amplifier and drive it hard. you will not see or feel 75W of heat coming off those passives.

I dont know this guys credentials, but he seems to be selling snake oil.


----------



## eviling

Frank Drebin said:


> 4" center channel. Is it too small? Any suggestions?
> 
> Factory HU
> Lots of power available (Massive NX2 bridged, ~200W RMS)
> XR Duo fronts, driven off Massive HD1600 (160X4) Dodge Ram, XR3m's in the dash corners, XR6.5's in the doors. Factory had 3 identical speakers in the dash, can be modified for a 4" I believe.
> 
> If it's not ideal, I just won't use a center. Is a 4" worth it? It's about as large as I can fit, while staying stealth. I don't think the 3" XR3M could play much lower than 200Hz, and the XR6.5M's are crossed @ 70Hz.
> 
> Thanks!


a 4" full range can work very nicley, it all depends on the driver beams, you want a wide band driver, and you want as big of one as you can get to fit, but if possible matching drivers to your sides is ideal, the ms-8 does level adjustments very well so this isn't to big of a deal but idealy you would want them to match with other methods, esepecily if your doing it with out a processor. but i dont think people do that anymroe, i know the oldschoolt rick was to pick up the one lead off the rigth side, and one lead off the left side but I don't think anybody does that anymore.


----------



## taibanl

Ok I at least found another source to back it up...


Chuck Hawks said:


> Active bi-amping has several advantages. Since each power amp is driving only part of the frequency spectrum, intermodulation distortion is virtually eliminated. The inevitable power loss associated with a passive crossover is eliminated. Since the low frequency driver (woofer) requires the bulk of the power in any speaker system, a less powerful amplifier may be used to drive the tweeters in a bi-amped system. (Of course, there must be level controls on the active crossover to balance the system.) The power amps are not threatened by a very low impedance load, since each channel is powering an individual eight ohm (or whatever it is rated at) driver. The power amps are not working as hard to drive a bi-amped speaker system to any given volume, so harmonic distortion is reduced and clipping at high volume is unlikely. The stereo system's amplifier *power is effectively doubled*. The benefits of active bi-amping are real (not subjective) and can be measured with test equipment.


To take this back *on topic*_, the following appeals to me as a reason that the _*MS-8 with its smaller power amps may be uniquely suited to such a setup*, _when you have an otherwise free channel_


> In the real world, there is no free lunch and this remains true for active bi-amping. The most obvious drawback is increased expense, since two stereo power amps and an outboard crossover are required, not to mention four sets of speaker wires. System complexity is increased and there are more interconnects (RCA patch cords and speaker cables). In addition, the active crossover must match the characteristics of the speaker system to be bi-amplified... To set-up a bi-amped loudspeaker, test equipment is required, along with the knowledge to use it correctly. At a minimum, this means a sound pressure level (SPL) meter and a test CD with a sine wave test tone at the crossover frequency. Much better is a sine wave test tone generator, and these are not cheap. If you are considering bi-amping to take advantage of the increased system power from dual power amps, let me point out that it would be cheaper and much simpler to buy a single stereo power amp with twice the power and use it conventionally.


The MS-8 seems to do all of the above by design. So its not a FREE lunch, but its a lunch you already bought?


----------



## minbari

just seems to me that you are getting more power to the speakers because you are supplying more, lol. instead of 100 x 2, you have 100 x 4. maybe I am missing something, but this seems like a capt obvious move, lol.

as far as intermodulation and distortion, etc , etc. I wont argue. having a discrete channel for each speaker certainly cleans things up, but if an amplifier puts out 20V rms, then that is what it puts out. you are not going to magically get more.


----------



## kaigoss69

I'm not smart enough to intelligently comment on this bi-amping idea, but in my mind it would perhaps not make a huge difference with normal music reproduction, since music is comprised of different tones, at different frequencies, at different times. Therefore, the majority of the energy from the 20W is available for each individual note. Once you bi-amp, you are splitting the duty of each amp into two adjacent frequency bands, so a typical note would only be reproduced by one amp channel pair, inside one frequency band. So the note would also only "receive" 20W. The only difference I see is the passive x-over, it will swallow some of the power but not enough to make a 3dB difference.

Edit: it would be much different with pink noise of course. Here I can see the potential for a larger gain.


----------



## taibanl

kaigoss69 said:


> Music is comprised of different tones, at different frequencies, at * the same time*. Therefore, the majority of the energy from the 20W is *NOT *available for each individual note. Once you bi-amp, you are splitting the duty of each amp into two adjacent frequency bands, so a typical note would only be reproduced by one amp channel pair, inside one frequency band. So the note would also only "receive" 20W.


Fixed.

This is exactly why bi-amping makes more effective power. Think of one note playing on the woofer, and one on the tweeter. Either one amp has to devote 20w to playing BOTH notes at the same time, or two amps can each devote 20W to their respective notes.

This also helps to highlight why there is a significantly greater difference in headroom, while enjoying a merely modest increase in effective RMS power



kaigoss69 said:


> Edit: it would be much different with pink noise of course. Here I can see the potential for a larger gain.


Certainly you can demonstrate your MAXIMUM effective power using pink noise. For example with the MS-8 if your source had a 2V signal in the woofer's range and a 2V signal in the tweeters range, the tweeter voltage would "ride" the woofer voltage and you would get clipping of the power amp. Seems to me the secret to bi-amping is you get to theoretically double your INPUT voltages while having no increase in the potential for clipping (in the scenario described of course).


----------



## Frank Drebin

eviling said:


> a 4" full range can work very nicley, it all depends on the driver beams, you want a wide band driver, and you want as big of one as you can get to fit, but if possible matching drivers to your sides is ideal, the ms-8 does level adjustments very well so this isn't to big of a deal but idealy you would want them to match with other methods, esepecily if your doing it with out a processor. but i dont think people do that anymroe, i know the oldschoolt rick was to pick up the one lead off the rigth side, and one lead off the left side but I don't think anybody does that anymore.


So, any suggestions for a 4" widebander? I hate to start a new thread. $300 max.


----------



## kaigoss69

Frank Drebin said:


> So, any suggestions for a 4" widebander? I hate to start a new thread.


L3SE is what I use. No complaints.


----------



## kaigoss69

taibanl said:


> Fixed.
> 
> This is exactly why bi-amping makes more effective power. Think of one note playing on the woofer, and one on the tweeter. Either one amp has to devote 20w to playing BOTH notes at the same time, or two amps can each devote 20W to their respective notes.
> 
> This also helps to highlight why there is a significantly greater difference in headroom, while enjoying a merely modest increase in effective RMS power
> 
> Certainly you can demonstrate your MAXIMUM effective power using pink noise. For example with the MS-8 if your source had a 2V signal in the woofer's range and a 2V signal in the tweeters range, the tweeter voltage would "ride" the woofer voltage and you would get clipping of the power amp. Seems to me the secret to bi-amping is you get to theoretically double your INPUT voltages while having no increase in the potential for clipping (in the scenario described of course).


LOL, I guess it very much depends on the music. There is no question that it would be better, so if you have the channels, have at it and let us know what 
kind of difference it makes!


----------



## Fast1one

taibanl said:


> Fixed.
> 
> This is exactly why bi-amping makes more effective power. Think of one note playing on the woofer, and one on the tweeter. Either one amp has to devote 20w to playing BOTH notes at the same time, or two amps can each devote 20W to their respective notes.


This is simply not true. A low pass filter causes a steady INCREASE in impedance above the cutoff, while a high pass filter causes a steady increase in impedance below the cutoff. When you wire a woofer and tweeter with a lowpass and highpass, respectively, the effective impedance remains the same provided that the crossover is designed properly. A 4 ohm tweeter and a 4 ohm woofer wired to a 4 ohm crossover is still a 4 ohm load. Below the crossover frequency, the woofers impedance transfer function dominates, while above the crossover frequency the tweeters impedance dominates. 

At lower frequencies, the tweeters impedance is very high while the woofers impedance is very low, creating a voltage divider which drives the majority of the power to the woofer. At high frequencies, the opposite is true and the tweeter receives most of the power. Near the crossover, both the woofer and the tweeter are receiving half the power, but they are also working together to create the sound making the drop in power moot. 

Bi-Amping has no sound pressure advantages but offer other advantages, such as the ability to apply staggered power to inefficient transducers and the ability to apply individual time alignment.


----------



## 14642

Frank Drebin said:


> So, any suggestions for a 4" widebander? I hate to start a new thread. $300 max.


Guys, there's no better "widebander" than a coaxial speakers that includes a tweeter. Put tweeters in your center channels with MS-8. Please, no more of this tweeterless widebander crap.


----------



## 14642

Fast1one said:


> This is simply not true. A low pass filter causes a steady INCREASE in impedance above the cutoff, while a high pass filter causes a steady increase in impedance below the cutoff. When you wire a woofer and tweeter with a lowpass and highpass, respectively, the effective impedance remains the same provided that the crossover is designed properly. A 4 ohm tweeter and a 4 ohm woofer wired to a 4 ohm crossover is still a 4 ohm load. Below the crossover frequency, the woofers impedance transfer function dominates, while above the crossover frequency the tweeters impedance dominates.
> 
> At lower frequencies, the tweeters impedance is very high while the woofers impedance is very low, creating a voltage divider which drives the majority of the power to the woofer. At high frequencies, the opposite is true and the tweeter receives most of the power. Near the crossover, both the woofer and the tweeter are receiving half the power, but they are also working together to create the sound making the drop in power moot.
> 
> Bi-Amping has no sound pressure advantages but offer other advantages, such as the ability to apply staggered power to inefficient transducers and the ability to apply individual time alignment.


Exactly. There are two caveats:
1. There is some insertion loss with passive components--all have a parasitic DCR component, but it's usually not a big deal.
2. The impedacnce of the passive system is often not linear, as the cirecuit is often used to apply some response shaping. When the amp clips, it clips. 

So, I think the real topic here is that the active design may help to eliminate the distortion in a tweeter (for example) when the amp runs out of power driving the woofer (for example). This does not increase the power of the amplifier, but it may reduce distortion under some circumstances. 

It is NOT an important enough consideration to warrant making a decision either way. Independant and easily adjustable crossovers and adjustments of relative levels of speakers is.


----------



## pm179

Question about adding a center channel ... I have a storage compartment in the lower console (in front of shifter area) where a large center channel speaker could be added easily ... can/will the processing in the ms-8 overcome such a low center location or would I be better off not bothering?? I certainly don't want the stage/image pulled down and wouldn't think of having one there without the processor ... I'm just not ready to cut into the top of dash yet ;-)

2009 EX-L Accord


----------



## Frank Drebin

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Guys, there's no better "widebander" than a coaxial speakers that includes a tweeter. Put tweeters in your center channels with MS-8. Please, no more of this tweeterless widebander crap.


Andy, can you elaborate on this please? I don't understand, a widebander is supposed to play all the way up to 20khz just like a coax.

It is essentially a coaxial speaker without a visible tweeter. Is there something I'm missing here? FWIW I have the Audible Physics XR3M widebanders in the dash corners, which sound much better than the Massive Audio CK6 tweeters that I had in there before.

If you could suggest a suitable 3.5" coax that would be better than another XR it would be much appreciated.

edit: Just found this post:



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yeah, what gives with all of the "wideband" stuff? A three inch doesn't make bass and it doesn't make high-frequencies. It's a midrange and is an effective fix for directivity issues between big midrange drivers mounted off axis and tweeters. They aren't full range drivers, unless the only program material you plan to listen to is Paul Harvey.
> 
> If it's a center channel and all you can fit is a 3", then use a 3" two-way or add a tweeter.


I'm assuming you have no problems with widebanders that make high frequencies.


----------



## subwoofery

Frank Drebin said:


> Andy, can you elaborate on this please? I don't understand, a widebander is supposed to play all the way up to 20khz just like a coax.
> 
> It is essentially a coaxial speaker without a visible tweeter. Is there something I'm missing here? FWIW I have the Audible Physics XR3M widebanders in the dash corners, which sound much better than the Massive Audio CK6 tweeters that I had in there before.
> 
> If you could suggest a suitable 3.5" coax that would be better than another XR it would be much appreciated.
> 
> edit: Just found this post:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm assuming you have no problems with widebanders that make high frequencies.


Do a search on "beaming" and "polar response". 

Kelvin


----------



## taibanl

Fast1one said:


> This is simply not true. A low pass filter causes a steady INCREASE in impedance above the cutoff, while a high pass filter causes a steady increase in impedance below the cutoff. When you wire a woofer and tweeter with a lowpass and highpass, respectively, the effective impedance remains the same provided that the crossover is designed properly. A 4 ohm tweeter and a 4 ohm woofer wired to a 4 ohm crossover is still a 4 ohm load. Below the crossover frequency, the woofers impedance transfer function dominates, while above the crossover frequency the tweeters impedance dominates.
> 
> At lower frequencies, the tweeters impedance is very high while the woofers impedance is very low, creating a voltage divider which drives the majority of the power to the woofer. At high frequencies, the opposite is true and the tweeter receives most of the power. Near the crossover, both the woofer and the tweeter are receiving half the power, but they are also working together to create the sound making the drop in power moot.
> 
> Bi-Amping has no sound pressure advantages but offer other advantages, such as the ability to apply staggered power to inefficient transducers and the ability to apply individual time alignment.


I am not smart on this, but you seem to be describing why PASSIVE bi-amping does not have the described SPL advantage, I'm curious, I will have to test as the proponents claim that the SPL advantage is objective and can be confirmed with test equipment. I'll report back since I am making the change for other reasons anyway.


----------



## Fast1one

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Exactly. There are two caveats:
> 1. There is some insertion loss with passive components--all have a parasitic DCR component, but it's usually not a big deal.
> 2. The impedacnce of the passive system is often not linear, as the cirecuit is often used to apply some response shaping. When the amp clips, it clips.
> 
> So, I think the real topic here is that the active design may help to eliminate the distortion in a tweeter (for example) when the amp runs out of power driving the woofer (for example). This does not increase the power of the amplifier, but it may reduce distortion under some circumstances.
> 
> It is NOT an important enough consideration to warrant making a decision either way. Independant and easily adjustable crossovers and adjustments of relative levels of speakers is.


Indeed there are some losses, but I wanted to keep things simple 

From my understanding, the topic was regarding bi-amping a passive component system and not an active implementation.


----------



## nisco

pm179 said:


> Question about adding a center channel ... I have a storage compartment in the lower console (in front of shifter area) where a large center channel speaker could be added easily ... can/will the processing in the ms-8 overcome such a low center location or would I be better off not bothering?? I certainly don't want the stage/image pulled down and wouldn't think of having one there without the processor ... I'm just not ready to cut into the top of dash yet ;-)
> 
> 2009 EX-L Accord


i have the same type of space in the same place and i have the same question.
in my case it is a VW Golf MK3
top of the dash in my car dont have space to put a center channel
can anyone help us here please?


----------



## taibanl

Fast1one said:


> From my understanding, the topic was regarding bi-amping a passive component system and not an active implementation.


Yeah, actually that was the whole point of me causing this tangent in_ this _thread...I wanted to confirm MS-8 would support the active implementation (in my case, running a 2-way center off of MS-8). The discussion has been interesting but don't want to drag the thread any further down the road.


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## radarcontact

Ms-8 LESSON LEARNED: Why I got "INPUT SIGNAL - NONE"

I kept getting INPUT SIGNAL NONE after simply reinstalling the ms-8 with a different amp. In retrospect, while I was waiting for the new amp to arrive, I did a little "cleaning up" of the install: wire ties, bonding (fabric) tape, wire bundles, etc. One of the things I bundled together were the unused speaker level input wires (# pairs 3-8). I made sure that there were no exposed wires, and then wrapped them securely in electrical tape for protection. Well, I guess when I hid that bundle as part of the final install, and bending it to do so, the wires got exposed just enough to short. See pic below:








No damage done, but it drove me crazy for a week, as I only got the INPUT SIGNAL NONE versus OK OK OK. As soon as I separated that bundle of wires, the unit worked the way it was supposed to. They are now each individually shrink wrapped...!

Hopefully this will help somebody out that also makes a simple mistake like this. Trace your steps and don't discount anything.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## taibanl

jaceves said:


> Andy,
> I have a 2011 Hyundai Sonata 4dr with Factory Navigation and 7 speaker system (consists of a front 4”, rear/back 6.5” and 8” factory sub). No additional amps.
> Replaced factory speakers with the following:
> •	Front Dash now: 4” Infinity 32.9FC (Freq Rsp. 85hz – 25k)
> •	Front Door now: 6.5” Infinity 63.9i (Freq Rsp. 45hz – 30k)
> •	Rear Door now: 6.5” Infinity 63.9i (Freq Rsp. 45hz – 30k)
> •	Factory 8” factory sub remains
> I have been struggling to determine how to setup the basic configuration of this system. I’ve attempted to contact JBL technical support but they have been of very little help other than to tell me to use the default settings.
> Questions:
> •	Should I run the dash and front door speakers as 2-way or as 1-ways?
> •	What are the recommended cross over frequencies and slope based on my setup?
> •	Lots of echo with the BT phone. Any idea how to correct?
> •	I have my single 8” (infinite baffle) Factory sub bridged off channels 7 & 8. During the setup, do I set up for two subs?
> I tried to make this email as concise as possible and I apologize in advance if I am logging this into the wrong forum. Any help you can provide would be very much appreciated.


I see the infinities are coax's...where are your dash and doors (center of dash, corners? etc, are the doors low or high?)

Are you using any external power? Especially for the subs?

The immediate problem I see with your setup is that your front doors and dash can't easily be made to make a coherent soundstage. If you set your front doors and dash as a two way setup, the MS-8 is going to want to send some frequencies to the door and the rest to the dash. In your case the door can play both lower and higher than the dash speakers you chose. You DO want them as separate MS-8 channels as they need to be time-aligned if they are far apart.

I'll hold back further comments for now, till we get some more info.

See this thread also:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...4873-2011-hyundai-sonata-speaker-upgrade.html


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## billymonter

Here's some info on biamping. Does it help?

BiAmp (Bi-Amplification - Not Quite Magic, But Close) - Part 1


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## taibanl

:dead_horse::dead_horse::dead_horse:


billymonter said:


> Here's some info on biamping. Does it help?
> 
> BiAmp (Bi-Amplification - Not Quite Magic, But Close) - Part 1


Yeah, that was the original source for the discussion, picked from another DIYMA thread.

I think those who have chimed in have agreed:
Passive biamping - negligible if any advantage
Active biamping- possible SPL advantage of 1-2dB, the maximum of 3dB would only be attained when a peak HF and peak LF are concurrent with one another. the more significant and definite advantage is more headroom/less distortion of the tweeter when woofer is sucking up the power.

MS-8 using more than one channel is capable of ACTIVE bi-amp

Edit: I don't think this is much contribution to the thread so I'd like to stop :dead_horse:


----------



## Babs

radarcontact said:


> Ms-8 LESSON LEARNED: Why I got "INPUT SIGNAL - NONE"
> 
> I kept getting INPUT SIGNAL NONE after simply reinstalling the ms-8 with a different amp. In retrospect, while I was waiting for the new amp to arrive, I did a little "cleaning up" of the install: wire ties, bonding (fabric) tape, wire bundles, etc. One of the things I bundled together were the unused speaker level input wires (# pairs 3-8). I made sure that there were no exposed wires, and then wrapped them securely in electrical tape for protection. Well, I guess when I hid that bundle as part of the final install, and bending it to do so, the wires got exposed just enough to short. See pic below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No damage done, but it drove me crazy for a week, as I only got the INPUT SIGNAL NONE versus OK OK OK. As soon as I separated that bundle of wires, the unit worked the way it was supposed to. They are now each individually shrink wrapped...!
> 
> Hopefully this will help somebody out that also makes a simple mistake like this. Trace your steps and don't discount anything.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Interestiing.. I will search but I've wondered more than a few times what would the MS-8 if the speaker-level pigtail had a short. I've been troubleshooting channel out occurrences I thought was originally my amp, but bench testing couldn't locate a problem, so I wonder if this is something the MS-8 might do if there's such an issue.

I'm using channels 5 and 6 speaker outs to drive passive 2-way rears but all else are taped up on the ends, for lack of knowing a better method. Hence my dislike of pigtails in general.


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## 14642

So, when MS-8 runs input calibration, here's what happens:

The signal on the CD isn't random pink noise. It's a very specific signal designed to allow MS-8 to understand precisely what happens in the factory system in both time and frequency. It's also different in right and left, which allows MS-8 to determine whether a channel is left, right, or mono. 

"Input Low" means that there isn't enough level for MS-8 to do what it needs to do and maintain acceptable resolution of the signal, once it's converted to digital. In other words, "Turn up the volume". IF you've turned the volume of your radio all the way up and MS-8 still reads "low", then you need a line amp or you should use the radios's speaker level outputs.

"Input High" means that the voltage of the radio's output signal is too high and will cause significant clipping of MS-8's input--too much for MS-8 to assure low distortion performance. "Turn the volume down" or "attenuate the output of the radio some other way" is what that means. 

"Input None" means that MS-8 does not see the signal that's on the disc modified in a linear way in either time or frequency. If the signal is not sampled at 44.1k, + or - about 0.5%, this will also cause a "Signal None" condition. We'be built sample rate correction into the algorithm and that's what allows the + or - 0.5%. This is a significant accomplishment and one that isn't included in other products of this type. In order for MS-8 to analyze the signal in the time domain, there has to be a baseline, and 44.1k as the sampling rate is the basline.

"Signal Noisy" means that the signal is recognized but that it's so heavily clipped that MS-8 can't use it. 

The reason that shorted inputs would cause a "Signal None" condition is because MS-8's first "question" is, "Is there anything on the input?" A short is a "Something". Then, the next question is "Is the 'something' similar to what's on the CD?"

There's another condition that has been reported a couple of times, and that's a condition in which MS-8 reads "Signal Low" until the volume control of the head unit is increased to a certain point at which MS-8 reads "Signal None". This indicates that there is something non-linear ,that isn't clipping, that happens to the signal at that point. I haven't had an oppotunity to do any investigation, but this has happened in two Audis with the B&O DSP system. 

Once MS-8 reads "OK OK OK", that means that it recognizes the signal, that it's loud enough but not too loud and that the level between left and right is the same, within a couple of decibels. Then, when you give it the command, it measures the relative delay of the signal on each channel, lines up the initial inpulses (and uses another sneaky trick to accurately measure the delay of low passed signals), combines left channels, combines right channels, applies a 200Hz low pass filter and an all pass filter to the mono channels so they'll sum with right and left without phase errors. Then, MS-8 applies the same kind of EQ to the input signals that it uses during acoustic calibration. 

The way EQ is accomplished is another MUCH more complicated explanation.


----------



## radarcontact

Babs said:


> Interestiing.. I will search but I've wondered more than a few times what would the MS-8 if the speaker-level pigtail had a short. I've been troubleshooting channel out occurrences I thought was originally my amp, but bench testing couldn't locate a problem, so I wonder if this is something the MS-8 might do if there's such an issue.
> 
> I'm using channels 5 and 6 speaker outs to drive passive 2-way rears but all else are taped up on the ends, for lack of knowing a better method. Hence my dislike of pigtails in general.


Yeah, it was probably okay until I had to bend the pigtail which probably stretched some wires while compressing others, exposing the wires where they are factory split about an inch from the end. All I know is, now it works like a champ.

I still have a very slight alternator whine going on, so I need to do the same with the output leads (unwrap, separate, re-wrap). A friend told me that those, too, are always hot (no matter which ones you "tell" the ms-8 to actually use). So, it makes sense that I may have some issues stemming from that pigtail as well.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## nisco

nisco said:


> i have the same type of space in the same place and i have the same question.
> in my case it is a VW Golf MK3
> top of the dash in my car dont have space to put a center channel
> can anyone help us here please?


can someone help de noooob please :blush:


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## rage-wrx

What gauge wire should I be running for the rem out of the MS8 to the rem in of the amp?


----------



## 14642

rage-wrx said:


> What gauge wire should I be running for the rem out of the MS8 to the rem in of the amp?


 
16, 18, 20? Any is fine.


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## akelu

Andy - are there any updates for the issue you have acknowledged regarding the lack of midbass when using a trunk sub ? And the workaround you specified regarding marking your subwoofer as "low"?

I'm using that workaround at the moment but am now limited to a 2-way front as a result of the software glitch in the ms-8.. I also dont feel that my sub/midbass integration is as good as it should be. 

I tried turning up the gains on the sub as a result of less detail in the low-end because of this workaround and i still dont think its quite right...


----------



## i_theo

MS-8 works great for me and I read much about all the gain down, set MS-8 -40 and turn the all gain down, The Sub is hear not feel, The Sweep at normal conversation level .. etc.. 

But i want to make sure .. something i'm still confuse.

Which is the recommendation between :
1.> Lowering MS-8 level and external amplifier gain a little up .
2.> MS-8 level at about -30 and -40 and all the external amplifier gain down.

As long as i hear the sweep almost the same level between them during calibration / measurement process. Let's say MS-8 level at -50 and external amplifier gain at about 10 o'clock AND MS-8 -40 and amplifier gain at about 7 o'clock all turn down. .

Because i'm thinking if i use lower MS-8 level and external amplifier gain a little up then after calibration / measurement done (set MS-8 to -6 dB) .. no need to turn the external amplifier gain a little up all with the same amount anymore .. and to leave what MS-8 tune as is .. sometimes i'm not sure the linierity of the external amplifier gain to turn up manually. 

Thanks.


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## rage-wrx

I searched but could not find the answer anywhere.The MS8 has to be grounded to the chassis & remote out should go to the external amps.Should the external amps also be grounded?


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## nineball

rage-wrx said:


> I searched but could not find the answer anywhere.The MS8 has to be grounded to the chassis & remote out should go to the external amps.Should the external amps also be grounded?


only if you want them to turn on.


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## radarcontact

nineball said:


> only if you want them to turn on.






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Frank Drebin

*Speaker placement*

Andy, Kelvin, or anyone who would like to offer advice:

I am heeding Andy's advice found from another thread:



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So, my story is:
> 
> 1. Don't mount anything but the center channel anywhere near the windshield.
> 2. Keep speakers out of the A-pillars.
> 3. If tweeters have to go in the dash or the pillars, cross them high.
> 4. Use steep slopes
> 5. Choose crossover points to keep drivers safe and consider dispersion when you choose.
> 6. DO NOT OVERLAP FREQUENCY RANGES.
> 7. Use a center speaker WITH A TWEETER.
> 8. Use a center channel ONLY if you have a steering algorithm.
> 9. Always retune the EQ when you change the stuff above.


Which basically contradicts the whole direction of my build. Vehicle is a 2011 Dodge Ram.

I can go 2 way or 3 way front stage, wondering which would be the best location for each driver, and if a 3 way is advisable or if I should just go 2 way.

*Tweeters (not yet decided) * (8khz & up in 3 way, 3k-5khz & up in 2 way)

Possible mounting locations: 

Factory dash location (firing up at windshield)
Sail Panels
A Pillars
Lower door with woofer
Custom kick panel with mid
*
Midrange - Audible physics XR3M-LE* (300hz-8khz)

Possible mounting locations:

Factory dash location (firing up at windshield)
Custom kick panel with tweeter

*
Woofer - Audible Physics XR6.5M* (70-5khz)
Mounting location

Factory location, lower door

*Center channel - HAT L3SE*, run passively with tweeter (TBD) (300Hx & up)

The center channel is waaay at the front of the windshield facing up at the dash.

What do you think guys, due to the lack of suitable locations for the mid, am I better off running a 2 way?

Any help is much appreciated, thanks.


----------



## AndyInOC

*Re: Speaker placement*



Frank Drebin said:


> Andy, Kelvin, or anyone who would like to offer advice:
> 
> I am heeding Andy's advice found from another thread:
> 
> 
> 
> Which basically contradicts the whole direction of my build. Vehicle is a 2011 Dodge Ram.
> 
> I can go 2 way or 3 way front stage, wondering which would be the best location for each driver, and if a 3 way is advisable or if I should just go 2 way.
> 
> *Tweeters (not yet decided) * (8khz & up in 3 way, 3k-5khz & up in 2 way)
> 
> Possible mounting locations:
> 
> Factory dash location (firing up at windshield)
> Sail Panels
> A Pillars
> Lower door with woofer
> Custom kick panel with mid
> *
> Midrange - Audible physics XR3M-LE* (300hz-8khz)
> 
> Possible mounting locations:
> 
> Factory dash location (firing up at windshield)
> Custom kick panel with tweeter
> 
> *
> Woofer - Audible Physics XR6.5M* (70-5khz)
> Mounting location
> 
> Factory location, lower door
> 
> *Center channel - HAT L3SE*, run passively with tweeter (TBD) (300Hx & up)
> 
> The center channel is waaay at the front of the windshield facing up at the dash.
> 
> What do you think guys, due to the lack of suitable locations for the mid, am I better off running a 2 way?
> 
> Any help is much appreciated, thanks.



Try a 2way plus sub for the moment, in my experience the ms8 didn't do what "I wanted it to do" with mids in the kicks. Once you have the 2way + sub dialed in and feel adventurous, add a center (my next step possibly) 

In my opinion, using the ms8 for a 2way front + sub has been WAY closer to what I was hoping for as far as sound, the 3way front just didn't have the wow factor I wanted. Could have been the speakers, lack of power, whatever but the simple fact is it has the WOW (for me) back to a simple 2way front.

Still working on bass / midbass response, have done a ton of troubleshooting and am creeping closer. Fact remains though, start simple and work up to more complicated, its a lot more fun that way.


----------



## Frank Drebin

*Re: Speaker placement*



AndyInOC said:


> Try a 2way plus sub for the moment, in my experience the ms8 didn't do what "I wanted it to do" with mids in the kicks. Once you have the 2way + sub dialed in and feel adventurous, add a center (my next step possibly)
> 
> In my opinion, using the ms8 for a 2way front + sub has been WAY closer to what I was hoping for as far as sound, the 3way front just didn't have the wow factor I wanted. Could have been the speakers, lack of power, whatever but the simple fact is it has the WOW (for me) back to a simple 2way front.
> 
> Still working on bass / midbass response, have done a ton of troubleshooting and am creeping closer. Fact remains though, start simple and work up to more complicated, its a lot more fun that way.


That's what I'm thinking, it's a shame I can't use those beautiful A.P. 3" speakers in my build. I suppose as far as tweeter placement goes, I'm probably best served trying different crossover points and placements.

I welcome more opinions on my situation.


----------



## rain27

*Re: Speaker placement*



Frank Drebin said:


> Andy, Kelvin, or anyone who would like to offer advice:
> 
> I am heeding Andy's advice found from another thread:
> 
> 
> 
> Which basically contradicts the whole direction of my build. Vehicle is a 2011 Dodge Ram.
> 
> I can go 2 way or 3 way front stage, wondering which would be the best location for each driver, and if a 3 way is advisable or if I should just go 2 way.
> 
> *Tweeters (not yet decided) * (8khz & up in 3 way, 3k-5khz & up in 2 way)
> 
> Possible mounting locations:
> 
> Factory dash location (firing up at windshield)
> Sail Panels
> A Pillars
> Lower door with woofer
> Custom kick panel with mid
> *
> Midrange - Audible physics XR3M-LE* (300hz-8khz)
> 
> Possible mounting locations:
> 
> Factory dash location (firing up at windshield)
> Custom kick panel with tweeter
> 
> *
> Woofer - Audible Physics XR6.5M* (70-5khz)
> Mounting location
> 
> Factory location, lower door
> 
> *Center channel - HAT L3SE*, run passively with tweeter (TBD) (300Hx & up)
> 
> The center channel is waaay at the front of the windshield facing up at the dash.
> 
> What do you think guys, due to the lack of suitable locations for the mid, am I better off running a 2 way?
> 
> Any help is much appreciated, thanks.


I've used the MS-8 with many different speakers and various speaker locations, 2-way and 3-way, no center or rears. It sounded great in either configuration. The best speaker locations in my experience were tweeters/midrange in sails or a-pillars. The tweeters firing up to the windshield and tweeters low around the midbass did not produce results that were as good.


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: Speaker placement*



Frank Drebin said:


> Andy, Kelvin, or anyone who would like to offer advice:
> 
> I am heeding Andy's advice found from another thread:
> 
> 
> 
> Which basically contradicts the whole direction of my build. Vehicle is a 2011 Dodge Ram.
> 
> I can go 2 way or 3 way front stage, wondering which would be the best location for each driver, and if a 3 way is advisable or if I should just go 2 way.
> 
> *Tweeters (not yet decided) * (8khz & up in 3 way, 3k-5khz & up in 2 way)
> 
> Possible mounting locations:
> 
> Factory dash location (firing up at windshield)
> Sail Panels
> A Pillars
> Lower door with woofer
> Custom kick panel with mid
> *
> Midrange - Audible physics XR3M-LE* (300hz-8khz)
> 
> Possible mounting locations:
> 
> Factory dash location (firing up at windshield)
> Custom kick panel with tweeter
> 
> *
> Woofer - Audible Physics XR6.5M* (70-5khz)
> Mounting location
> 
> Factory location, lower door
> 
> *Center channel - HAT L3SE*, run passively with tweeter (TBD) (300Hx & up)
> 
> The center channel is waaay at the front of the windshield facing up at the dash.
> 
> What do you think guys, due to the lack of suitable locations for the mid, am I better off running a 2 way?
> 
> Any help is much appreciated, thanks.


Since you won't be using a center channel that can play low enough (closer to 80Hz), I would do midbasses in kicks, midrange high in door and tweeters in sails (above the midrange). 
If you can get a center channel to play down to 80Hz, then you'll be good with midbasses low in doors. 

Kelvin


----------



## Frank Drebin

*Re: Speaker placement*



subwoofery said:


> Since you won't be using a center channel that can play low enough (closer to 80Hz), I would do midbasses in kicks, midrange high in door and tweeters in sails (above the midrange).
> If you can get a center channel to play down to 80Hz, then you'll be good with midbasses low in doors.
> 
> Kelvin


Hey Kelvin, thanks for the response.

Is your reasoning for putting the woofers in kicks to get the midbass "in front" of me, because the center channel can't do it on its own?

There is no room in my door for mids, unless I squeeze it in with the midbass down at the bottom. I probably could work something out with kicks for the 3" mids, but I don't have room (or don't want to make room) down there for 6.5" drivers. Although the direction of the build has changed, I still want to remain as stealth as I can.

Right now I'm leaning towards AndyInOC's advice to just go with a simple 2-way system, with the woofers in the lower door and mids in the upper sail panel, perhaps crossed over higher than a traditional 2-way (4-5k hz?) on Andy W's advice:

_If tweeters have to go in the dash or the pillars, cross them high._


As for the center channel - I'm going to see if I can squeeze a 4" in there to play a little lower, I think they should be able to play down to 150 hz?


----------



## 14642

So the reason for the three way is to avoid using the midbass (6") in a region where, a) the on-axis response is rolling off, b) where the peak in the response from the major cone distortion mode doesn't roll off as fast as the rest of the response, 3) where the dispersion of the midbass narrows. 

If you use a 2-way, you have to cross the tweeter low enough to meet the midbass, c.3500Hz. You can ONLY use the much higher crossover on the tweeter if you have a small midrange to bridge the gap. 

So, you can pick and choose the "rules" you want to follow, but it doesn't make any sense to follow three of them, blow off the others and then come back and post, "In my experience, Andy's suggestions don't work. 

I do suggest keeping the little mids OUT of the dash and out of the A-Pillars. A-pillars do one thing well--they raise the image. If that's the most important thing to you, then go for it. However, width will suffer. Image size will suffer. 

Since "performance" is subjective, some of you will prefer all kinds of other stuff--see the whole midbass thing. MS-8 tunes basically flat from 160 Hz to 1kHz. For those of you who compete in MECA or who LOVE the sound of your Beats headphones (I like Beats headphones, but not because of the bass, but because of their creative use of multiband compression), you'll want to use the 31-band EQ to boost between 100Hz and 500Hz. MS-8 is not designed to make the 6x9s in your doors move your pant legs. It's designed to place the image of the bass in the front and to allow you to boost the bass with the sub control without changing the apparent location of the bass. Why? Because I like that, because I spec'ed it and because I've made a majority of my customers happy with that for 25 years. This, however, did not make judges happy. They like big, fat midbass. I don't like big fat midbass because when I hear that, I hear much poorer definition in vocals, piano, the lower ranges of all string instruments and the percussive parts of those string instrument sounds. In my experience, that kick-your-ass midbass happens at live shows when the system is loud and the midrange is flat, but it doesn't happen at lower volumes. At lower volumes, the snap of the sound of someone whacking the string of the bass guitar with the side of his thumb sounds percussive, and that's what MS-8 is designed to preserve. If what you hear or what you like is different, no problem. This is why there's an additional EQ that you can adjust.


----------



## 14642

*Re: Speaker placement*



Frank Drebin said:


> Hey Kelvin, thanks for the response.
> 
> Is your reasoning for putting the woofers in kicks to get the midbass "in front" of me, because the center channel can't do it on its own?
> 
> There is no room in my door for mids, unless I squeeze it in with the midbass down at the bottom. I probably could work something out with kicks for the 3" mids, but I don't have room (or don't want to make room) down there for 6.5" drivers. Although the direction of the build has changed, I still want to remain as stealth as I can.
> 
> Right now I'm leaning towards AndyInOC's advice to just go with a simple 2-way system, with the woofers in the lower door and mids in the upper sail panel, perhaps crossed over higher than a traditional 2-way (4-5k hz?) on Andy W's advice:
> 
> _If tweeters have to go in the dash or the pillars, cross them high._
> 
> 
> As for the center channel - I'm going to see if I can squeeze a 4" in there to play a little lower, I think they should be able to play down to 150 hz?


The worst thing you can do with the center is to TRY to make it play what it cant. MS-8 will steer center-steered midbass BELOW THE CROSSOVER to the front left and right. He's suggesting kick panels for the midbass because the similar pathlngths will preserve the phantom center image for those sounds (well, he SHOULD be suggesting it because of this). If you'll use a bunch of power and you want the car to play loudly, then cross the center over higher--200-250 and let MS-8 do the rest. If it doesn't need to play so loudly, then experiment with a lower crossover.


----------



## Frank Drebin

*Re: Speaker placement*



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The worst thing you can do with the center is to TRY to make it play what it cant. MS-8 will steer center-steered midbass BELOW THE CROSSOVER to the front left and right. He's suggesting kick panels for the midbass because the similar pathlngths will preserve the phantom center image for those sounds (well, he SHOULD be suggesting it because of this). If you'll use a bunch of power and you want the car to play loudly, then cross the center over higher--200-250 and let MS-8 do the rest. If it doesn't need to play so loudly, then experiment with a lower crossover.


Understood. Hypothetically speaking, at what frequency would it become not worthwhile to add a center channel? For example if someone wanted to put a tweeter up there at 2500Hz, I'm guessing it's not going to do the system any good?

Basically, if your speaker can't play down to "X" Hz, then don't bother. What would you say the x would be?



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So, you can pick and choose the "rules" you want to follow, but it doesn't make any sense to follow three of them, blow off the others and then come back and post, "In my experience, Andy's suggestions don't work.


FWIW, all the questions I ask here are asked with the utmost humility. I am in no way trying to "work around" the proper way of doing things. Just learning as I go. Anything that may be interpreted otherwise should be dismissed as ignorance and inexperience.

I certainly appreciate the advice from everyone in here on my situation. Thanks to all who have replied.


----------



## 14642

For the center channel, I think 250 Hz is probably the cutoff. 

I used to cook this pretty cool chicken thing when family came over for the holidays. One of my relatives asked me for the recipe. Of course, it included a bunch of butter, cream, shallots, etc. The recipe was super simple. A few weeks later, I got a call..."Are you sure you gave me the right recips? Mine didn't turn out so well."

"Why?" I asked. "Did you follow the recipe?" 

"Yes, but I made some substitutions because I don't like all that fat and shallots were too expensive."

"Hmmm..You liked it when I cooked it." I replied. "What did you use instead?" 

"For the shallots, I substituted garlic powder. For the cream, I substituted skim milk, and for the butter, I used olive oil because it's much healthier. I don't think your recipe works very well." 

"Well, MY recipe works fine. It sounds like your recipe didn't work very well," I countered. "To avoid confusion, maybe we should use different names for our versions of the dish. Why don't you choose one and then I'l choose something else." 

No problem, Frank. No offense taken and there's no need to mince words. Sometimes I TRY to get someone to yell at me here.


----------



## radarcontact

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> For the center channel, I think 250 Hz is probably the cutoff.
> 
> I used to cook this pretty cool chicken thing when family came over for the holidays. One of my relatives asked me for the recipe. Of course, it included a bunch of butter, cream, shallots, etc. The recipe was super simple. A few weeks later, I got a call..."Are you sure you gave me the right recips? Mine didn't turn out so well."
> 
> "Why?" I asked. "Did you follow the recipe?"
> 
> "Yes, but I made some substitutions because I don't like all that fat and shallots were too expensive."
> 
> "Hmmm..You liked it when I cooked it." I replied. "What did you use instead?"
> 
> "For the shallots, I substituted garlic powder. For the cream, I substituted skim milk, and for the butter, I used olive oil because it's much healthier. I don't think your recipe works very well."
> 
> "Well, MY recipe works fine. It sounds like your recipe didn't work very well," I countered. "To avoid confusion, maybe we should use different names for our versions of the dish. Why don't you choose one and then I'l choose something else."
> 
> No problem, Frank. No offense taken and there's no need to mince words. Sometimes I TRY to get someone to yell at me here.


That's great...lol! And fits soooooooo many situations where the "recipe" isn't followed! I do a lot of training in my profession, and I tell my trainees, "if you are willing to do it MY way, I can teach you this fairly quickly." But of course they want to do things their way, and they end up doing something else for a living! Heheheh...I don't mind a bit. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: Speaker placement*



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The worst thing you can do with the center is to TRY to make it play what it cant. MS-8 will steer center-steered midbass BELOW THE CROSSOVER to the front left and right. He's suggesting kick panels for the midbass because the similar pathlngths will preserve the phantom center image for those sounds *(well, he SHOULD be suggesting it because of this)*. If you'll use a bunch of power and you want the car to play loudly, then cross the center over higher--200-250 and let MS-8 do the rest. If it doesn't need to play so loudly, then experiment with a lower crossover.


And I did  Got it from your suggetion. 

Kelvin


----------



## strakele

Hey Andy,

Hope this doesn't get lost in this massive thread, but I have a question regarding getting some more impact out of the MS-8.

This isn't another sub to midbass transition question, but is more for the upper midbass - getting more punch from toms and snare drum. Right now, and for as long as I've had my MS-8, the sound is there. A snare hit sounds just right - nice and crisp. But there's just no impact. Switching to processing from my 9887 (crossovers, levels, everything else being basically the same, no EQ boosts) it's there. You can feel a snare drum hit ring through your chest at higher volume. 

Is there anything I can do to get some more impact in this region from the MS-8? Other than just boosting the crap out of the 120-240Hz area with the GEQ?

Thanks.


----------



## subwoofery

strakele said:


> Hey Andy,
> 
> Hope this doesn't get lost in this massive thread, but I have a question regarding getting some more impact out of the MS-8.
> 
> This isn't another sub to midbass transition question, but is more for the upper midbass - getting more punch from toms and snare drum. Right now, and for as long as I've had my MS-8, the sound is there. A snare hit sounds just right - nice and crisp. But there's just no impact. Switching to processing from my 9887 (crossovers, levels, everything else being basically the same, no EQ boosts) it's there. You can feel a snare drum hit ring through your chest at higher volume.
> 
> Is there anything I can do to get some more impact in this region from the MS-8? Other than just boosting the crap out of the 120-240Hz area with the GEQ?
> 
> Thanks.


Did you try to add more power to the subwoofer? I remember one poster adding more power to his subwoofer and getting a stronger midbass after recalibrating... 
If there's too much in the 160Hz-250Hz region, things get boomy. 

Kelvin


----------



## strakele

subwoofery said:


> Did you try to add more power to the subwoofer? I remember one poster adding more power to his subwoofer and getting a stronger midbass after recalibrating...
> If there's too much in the 160Hz-250Hz region, things get boomy.
> 
> Kelvin


I have 3 subs (2 in back ported, 1 up front sealed) with a combined total of around 2000W on them. I'm fairly certain I have enough sub power. I just recently added the front sub and have by far the best midbass I have ever had. Kick drums have absolutely fantastic impact and I'm in love. But it's the higher tuned drums - the tom toms and snare that are lacking impact. Their fundamentals are outside the range that my subs play, I believe.

And yeah, I know just boosting that range with the EQ can make it boomy, which is why I was hoping that wasn't going to be the answer. When running from the 9887, the system doesn't sound boomier, it just has that extra impact that I want from the other drums.

Thanks for the reply.


----------



## Prime mova

You guys maybe able to answer this I was told that the MS-8 has only a single centre channel output?


----------



## 14642

strakele said:


> I have 3 subs (2 in back ported, 1 up front sealed) with a combined total of around 2000W on them. I'm fairly certain I have enough sub power. I just recently added the front sub and have by far the best midbass I have ever had. Kick drums have absolutely fantastic impact and I'm in love. But it's the higher tuned drums - the tom toms and snare that are lacking impact. Their fundamentals are outside the range that my subs play, I believe.
> 
> And yeah, I know just boosting that range with the EQ can make it boomy, which is why I was hoping that wasn't going to be the answer. When running from the 9887, the system doesn't sound boomier, it just has that extra impact that I want from the other drums.
> 
> Thanks for the reply.


Use the 31-band. That's what it's for. You may want to boost between 60 and 500.


----------



## 14642

Prime mova said:


> You guys maybe able to answer this I was told that the MS-8 has only a single centre channel output?


You can bi-amp the center if you want to. 2 Channels can be applied to the center.


----------



## subwoofery

strakele said:


> I have 3 subs (2 in back ported, 1 up front sealed) with a combined total of around 2000W on them. I'm fairly certain I have enough sub power. I just recently added the front sub and have by far the best midbass I have ever had. Kick drums have absolutely fantastic impact and I'm in love. But it's the higher tuned drums - the tom toms and snare that are lacking impact. Their fundamentals are outside the range that my subs play, I believe.
> 
> And yeah, I know just boosting that range with the EQ can make it boomy, which is why I was hoping that wasn't going to be the answer. When running from the 9887, the system doesn't sound boomier, it just has that extra impact that I want from the other drums.
> 
> Thanks for the reply.


Tom toms have fundamentals from 60Hz up to around 500Hz - harmonics up to around 7kHz 
Snares have fundamentals from 100Hz up to around 300Hz - harmonics up to around 10kHz 

If I understand correctly, you have your Xover set for your mid"sub"bass around 350Hz and let your AR3K do the rest. Why not try to recalibrate and let your bigger driver do everything from 80Hz to 500Hz? 

Kelvin


----------



## rage-wrx

I am officially stumped.I read through most of the posts & didn't find any answer.

I hooked up my HU to the MS8,used the high level input,hooked up Input 1 to left front speakers,input 2 to right front speakers.The HU does not have a sub out,so I was not able to hook it to the input like the manual says.

Everything turns on.But the display says "Input none" and momentarily said" level low" & when I turn up the volume it says "noise".

Any ideas?I'm basically stuck.I checked all the input wires for continuity & the wires are alright.


----------



## 14642

make sure the door is closed and there are no chimes or anything like that.


----------



## rage-wrx

Funny you should mention that.But you should know.The car chimes when the key is in the ignition.I simply started the car(door closed).I was actually going somewhere & had given up on the system but decided to try again.Miraculously with some volume adjustment the MS-8 stared calibrating.

Problem solved!!!


----------



## tilsim

Good it worked out for ya


----------



## radarcontact

Andy (or any other MS-8 audio man-God),

--- I have my 4-channels of (80 watt) power going to my front 6-1/2s and my rear 5-1/4 coaxes. 
Sub is run by separate 400 watt channel. 
Tweeters, front left and right, are being powered by the MS-8.

--- I just came across a post where Andy told a guy to, instead, run the rears off the MS-8 and run the front tweeters and mid-basses off the 4-channel amp.

Is this correct? (it was only a piece of the post so there was no context to go by)
80 watts to tweeters and 20 watts to full-range? I guess the rear fill isn't in need of much power/volume.

If so, would I just turn the amp gains to the tweeter channels down all the way, or would I still try to guess-set them at 2v, just like the other channels' gains?

That just seems like a lot of power to the tweeters.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## strakele

subwoofery said:


> Tom toms have fundamentals from 60Hz up to around 500Hz - harmonics up to around 7kHz
> Snares have fundamentals from 100Hz up to around 300Hz - harmonics up to around 10kHz
> 
> If I understand correctly, you have your Xover set for your mid"sub"bass around 350Hz and let your AR3K do the rest. Why not try to recalibrate and let your bigger driver do everything from 80Hz to 500Hz?
> 
> Kelvin


I do believe I tried that a long time ago, but don't remember for sure. I'll give it a shot. Thanks!


----------



## radarcontact

radarcontact said:


> Andy (or any other MS-8 audio man-God),
> 
> --- I have my 4-channels of (80 watt) power going to my front 6-1/2s and my rear 5-1/4 coaxes.
> Sub is run by separate 400 watt channel.
> Tweeters, front left and right, are being powered by the MS-8.
> 
> --- I just came across a post where Andy told a guy to, instead, run the rears off the MS-8 and run the front tweeters and mid-basses off the 4-channel amp.
> 
> Is this correct? (it was only a piece of the post so there was no context to go by)
> 80 watts to tweeters and 20 watts to full-range? I guess the rear fill isn't in need of much power/volume.
> 
> If so, would I just turn the amp gains to the tweeter channels down all the way, or would I still try to guess-set them at 2v, just like the other channels' gains?
> 
> That just seems like a lot of power to the tweeters.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Anyone?

(I hate to be a PITA, but I have everything ready to go. I guess in lieu of a response, I'll try the ms-8 power running my rear fills, and run my front midbass drivers off 2 of the Arc Audio channels and the tweeters off of the other two Arc channels.)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## subwoofery

radarcontact said:


> Anyone?
> 
> (I hate to be a PITA, but I have everything ready to go. I guess in lieu of a response, I'll try the ms-8 power running my rear fills, and run my front midbass drivers off 2 of the Arc Audio channels and the tweeters off of the other two Arc channels.)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yup, tweeters on the amp. The MS-8 will power your rears nicely. 
No need to have an explanation, just DO IT  

Powering your tweets with your amp will give you freedom in gain matching before calibration... 

Kelvin


----------



## radarcontact

subwoofery said:


> Yup, tweeters on the amp. The MS-8 will power your rears nicely.
> No need to have an explanation, just DO IT
> 
> Powering your tweets with your amp will give you freedom in gain matching before calibration...
> 
> Kelvin


Did it! 

I have the tweeter channels' gains turned down to zero, the midwoofers' turned to about 12 o'clock (my best guess for 2v). 

Does this sound like an ok place to start until I get to the channel output pink noise stage?

Then adjust the gains on the tweets and midwoofers to get a good blend with each other and to the ms-8 powered rears?

(For some reason my brand new AGM battery drained while I was out of town (in another car), so I'm waiting on it to charge up before I can test the ms-8. Another mystery to solve...)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## subwoofery

radarcontact said:


> Did it!
> 
> I have the tweeter channels' gains turned down to zero, the midwoofers' turned to about 12 o'clock (my best guess for 2v).
> 
> Does this sound like an ok place to start until I get to the channel output pink noise stage?
> 
> Then adjust the gains on the tweets and midwoofers to get a good blend with each other and to the ms-8 powered rears?
> 
> (For some reason my brand new AGM battery drained while I was out of town (in another car), so I'm waiting on it to charge up before I can test the ms-8. Another mystery to solve...)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Sounds like a good start. Try to find out where is your 2V amp gain @ and set your midrange for that. 
When you calibrate with pink noise, use the lowest volume on the MS-8 (wouldn't want you to fry your tweets on your first try ) 

I don't think it's necessary to dial down your gains to match up with the rears... (could be wrong on that one) Just never did. 

Kelvin


----------



## radarcontact

In the past I've set all my gains between 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock, this particular amp at 12 o'clock (to try to hit ~2v). This will be interesting with the tweets on the amp.

Thank you, btw!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Babs

subwoofery said:


> Yup, tweeters on the amp. The MS-8 will power your rears nicely.
> No need to have an explanation, just DO IT
> 
> Powering your tweets with your amp will give you freedom in gain matching before calibration...
> 
> Kelvin


+1 on this.. Run your rears on the MS-8 power with front-stage on amp power. Especially for L7 but also for L7 off.. The MS-8 has plenty for any conventional rear-fill unless whatever you're running in back is very inefficient. I have to kick the fader up front a bunch when I turn L7 off, and I'm running a piece-mill passive component set of 8ohm mids and Seas neo tweets off a passive pioneer crossover. Rears easily will overpower your front-stage.


----------



## radarcontact

Babs said:


> +1 on this.. Run your rears on the MS-8 power with front-stage on amp power. Especially for L7 but also for L7 off.. The MS-8 has plenty for any conventional rear-fill unless whatever you're running in back is very inefficient. I have to kick the fader up front a bunch when I turn L7 off, and I'm running a piece-mill passive component set of 8ohm mids and Seas neo tweets off a passive pioneer crossover. Rears easily will overpower your front-stage.


Well, the ms-8 did a good job of balancing everything before when I had the tweets on the 8 and the front mb and rear coaxs on the amp. But I am going to try it this (new) way, see if I like it better. My rear coaxs are 5-1/4" CDT CL-series, around 91db sensitivity IIRC, so they should be good.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## taibanl

You may be happier with rears powered and tweets on ms-8. Ms-8 wants to level match the drivers so it will have to lower the rest of the system down to the rears in order to match if they arent powered. May not be as big a factor with the tweets.


----------



## Babs

Hmm makes me want to unplug the speaker pigtail feeding the rears then recalibrate and see how that affects the frontstage levels. Based on the leveling statement the fronstage should be hotter by itself.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## taibanl

Ive never actually isolated and compared myself. Perhaps i should


----------



## strakele

subwoofery said:


> Tom toms have fundamentals from 60Hz up to around 500Hz - harmonics up to around 7kHz
> Snares have fundamentals from 100Hz up to around 300Hz - harmonics up to around 10kHz
> 
> If I understand correctly, you have your Xover set for your mid"sub"bass around 350Hz and let your AR3K do the rest. Why not try to recalibrate and let your bigger driver do everything from 80Hz to 500Hz?
> 
> Kelvin


Gave this a shot tonight... didn't really make much difference. Normally I have the crossover at 320Hz. I tried 500 and a 'more traditional' 2KHz crossover point and unfortunately it didn't do much for the upper drum impact.


----------



## subwoofery

strakele said:


> Gave this a shot tonight... didn't really make much difference. Normally I have the crossover at 320Hz. I tried 500 and a 'more traditional' 2KHz crossover point and unfortunately it didn't do much for the upper drum impact.


Crap I re-read your build log and it's your Ebonys that play 80Hz to 320Hz - not the front sub... :blush: 

Hmm... Let's try something else then. Which freqs do you need to boost in order to be satisfied? 

I'd like to see you try just to see if the range you need work is below the fundamentals (500Hz) or above it: 
rear sub @ 50Hz and down
front sub @ 50Hz to 500Hz 
mids (disconnected) 
wide @ 500Hz and up 

Kelvin


----------



## 14642

1. In an all active system (MS-8-based or not) you should always use protection caps on tweeters connected directly to the amp. I suggest 20uF. This will not adversely affect the crossover, but will protect your tweeters from a failed crossover, incorrect setup, failed amp or turn on and turn off pops. This is really important and isn't fodder for some esoteric dispute or debate. It's like making sure your race car has brakes or a parachute. Some contrarian might tell you that brakes or a parachute add additional weight to the car which compromises its power to weight ratio, but he would take this position out of an insatiable desire for attention of any kind and not because his position has merit in any practical sense. The trade-offs are obvious. 

2. Set the gains for 2V. That matches them with the output of MS-8. If you're trying to decide whether to use your amp to run your rears or your tweeters, I suggest the tweeters. In "run mode" with L7 on, only ambient information will be sent to the rear, so applying all that power has NO benefit. IF you find that the output level of the MS-8 for the rears is limiting the overall output level of your system, turn all the amplifier gains up by the same amount AFTER calibration. You'll have less rear, but I don't think anyone here will find that objectionable. 

3. When considering how much power you need for a pair of speakers, remember that EQ may require more or less power to be applied. If MS-8 needs to boost somewhere by 6dB, that 4x power. IF MS-8's output is 30 watts MAXIMUM, that means that at frequencies where there is no boost, MS-8 can provide about 8 watts so that it can provide 30 unclipped watts for the boost--put another way, the boost will allow 6dB of clipping if the internal amplifier is producing 30 watts at other, non-boosted frequencies. This applies to any amplifier, not just MS-8's internal amp.

4. the front is more important than the rear, so allocate power accordingly.


----------



## strakele

subwoofery said:


> Crap I re-read your build log and it's your Ebonys that play 80Hz to 320Hz - not the front sub... :blush:
> 
> Hmm... Let's try something else then. Which freqs do you need to boost in order to be satisfied?
> 
> I'd like to see you try just to see if the range you need work is below the fundamentals (500Hz) or above it:
> rear sub @ 50Hz and down
> front sub @ 50Hz to 500Hz
> mids (disconnected)
> wide @ 500Hz and up
> 
> Kelvin


Yeah, my current setup has been 
- rear sub 50 and down @ 18db
- font sub 50-80 @ 18db
- mids 80-320 @ 18db
- high 320 and up @ 18 or 24

Will give your suggestions a shot today.


----------



## radarcontact

I feel like John Bellushi with the Samuri sword...I swear I could do it right now.

Wondering if somehow I hurt the 8, because now I'm not getting anything from the tweets (hooked to amp) or the rears (hooked to 8).

Is the MS-8 supposed to get hot in the area circled in the pic?










It gets warm immediately.

??

EDIT: The unit continues to get warm even with the system off. No blue light, but unit is warm. Might get hot if I left it long enough, don't know...I pulled the fuse on it just in case it's faulty.
I went on a 5 day Thanksgiving vacation using a different car. When I returned home, in the ms-8 car, my brand new car battery was completely drained. I think the 8 was the culprit. Possible?


----------



## Bluenote

I was considering changing my CTR speaker from a Morel Maximo to an Integra Ovation. However, the integra requires two channels or the passive xover that comes with it. I have no place to put a passive over and have only a single channel on the MS8 for a Ctr. Is there any type of work around to use the Integra?

Thanks!


----------



## quality_sound

Power it from a 2-channel amp that has a built-in crossover that has enough range to handle the mid to tweeter transition and you're good to go.


----------



## subwoofery

quality_sound said:


> Power it from a 2-channel amp that has a built-in crossover that has enough range to handle the mid to tweeter transition and you're good to go.


? You would need separate gains and separate Xover knobs in order to do as you suggested... Personally, I don't know any amp that fits your suggestion. 

Kelvin


----------



## Bluenote

I appreciate the input but I am currently running my CTR of the MS8, the rest of my amp channels are dedicated to front stage and sub.


----------



## Bluenote

I don't know...maybe the Integra is too sophisticated for my setup.


----------



## quality_sound

subwoofery said:


> ? You would need separate gains and separate Xover knobs in order to do as you suggested... Personally, I don't know any amp that fits your suggestion.
> 
> Kelvin


An amp with dual gain controls? There's loads of them. The Arc KS125.2 Mini has them. 



Bluenote said:


> I appreciate the input but I am currently running my CTR of the MS8, the rest of my amp channels are dedicated to front stage and sub.


I get that. I'm saying buy another 2-channel amp to run the IO4 with. Piece of cake.


----------



## subwoofery

quality_sound said:


> An amp with dual gain controls? There's loads of them. The Arc KS125.2 Mini has them.


I actually meant both the separate gain and separate Xover knobs... 

If _Bluenote_ was to use a KS125.2, he would need to either use the passive Xover for the tweeter or a cap. To save the hassle, I'd just use 1 channel to the passive instead of going semi-active. 

Kelvin


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## Bluenote

So Kelvin, in order to use the existing 1 channel I have available I would 'have to' use the Morel passive? Or is there some sort of Caps I can put inline with the speakers instead? I ask because I am very tight on space for mounting a Morel xover


----------



## Darth SQ

Bluenote said:


> I don't know...maybe the Integra is too sophisticated for my setup.


Why mess with perfection? 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## m0sdef

Bluenote said:


> I was considering changing my CTR speaker from a Morel Maximo to an Integra Ovation. However, the integra requires two channels or the passive xover that comes with it. I have no place to put a passive over and have only a single channel on the MS8 for a Ctr. Is there any type of work around to use the Integra?
> 
> Thanks!


Like subwoofery mentioned, just use the passive crossover that come with it.


----------



## subwoofery

Bluenote said:


> So Kelvin, in order to use the existing 1 channel I have available I would 'have to' use the Morel passive? Or is there some sort of Caps I can put inline with the speakers instead? I ask because I am very tight on space for mounting a Morel xover


You can always install the passive Xover under a seat, in the trunk, in the glove box - you'll only require more speaker cable... That's all 

Kelvin


----------



## Bluenote

Good point and good advise as well! Thanks Kelvin!
@ Bret, I am messing with perfection ( as you call it )  because I have a serious disease called MIIJ...an acronym for Maybe If I Just...it's very contagious too! Lol


----------



## outsiders

pm179 said:


> Question about adding a center channel ... I have a storage compartment in the lower console (in front of shifter area) where a large center channel speaker could be added easily ... can/will the processing in the ms-8 overcome such a low center location or would I be better off not bothering?? I certainly don't want the stage/image pulled down and wouldn't think of having one there without the processor ... I'm just not ready to cut into the top of dash yet ;-)
> 
> 2009 EX-L Accord


bump for this question. is it worth it to add a center speaker so low? i don't want to cut my dash up either.


----------



## pm179

> bump for this question. is it worth it to add a center speaker so low? i don't want to cut my dash up either.


Thanks for the bump ... I'm having such problems with my MS-8 install that this slipped my mind

Actually, the answer is more important to me now then it was when I originally asked it because the ms8 processed image is too far to the right side in my car ... right of center. I've tried moving my head and body (and dozens of other combination's) to the right during the sweeps hoping the end result would be a more centered image. Mostly it ends up being a smeared mess.

However, that is not my biggest problem ... the worst thing is how thin and cave-like the sound is after processing (sorry I don't know the correct technical terms to use ;-) Male voices sound like crap ... like the lower mid's are missing or being PROCESSED OUT (not yelling ... caps are to described the main issue) When I switch off the processing it sounds much better to my ear, at least the male voices & related frequencies have the beef back in them. Of course the time align goes away so that part is much worse. 

I am willing to admit that I may be use to the boomy, unEQ'ed reflected sound of the stock system but something just doesn't seem right. Its so bright and unbalanced I just have to turn it down ... and no matter what I do I have to fade out the rears 4-5 clicks on every sweep / setup I've done (I've done at least 3 dozen input/output setups adjusting and learning what each change does) I also turn L7 off as THAT sounds even more tinny / processed without a center channel

I read Andy's post about the EQ processing using up available amp power to do its thing ... I have an extra 2 channels of 75w and am thinking of rerouting the front door woofers (2-way active) to them just in case the built in ms8 amps don't have enough power to balance my system up front.

Sorry to unload all that in this post BUT a 5 1/4 - 6 1/2 center channel (even if installed low in the front dash) may help me fix BOTH of my problems

... or it could be the stock system is installed SO POORLY that nothing will fix it (09 Honda Accord) and the ms8 is just exaggerating/pointing out those issues.


----------



## strakele

subwoofery said:


> Crap I re-read your build log and it's your Ebonys that play 80Hz to 320Hz - not the front sub... :blush:
> 
> Hmm... Let's try something else then. Which freqs do you need to boost in order to be satisfied?
> 
> I'd like to see you try just to see if the range you need work is below the fundamentals (500Hz) or above it:
> rear sub @ 50Hz and down
> front sub @ 50Hz to 500Hz
> mids (disconnected)
> wide @ 500Hz and up
> 
> Kelvin


This didn't help much either, unfortunately.


----------



## kaigoss69

PM179, it sounds like one of your mids may be wired out of phase.


----------



## pionkej

Bluenote said:


> I appreciate the input but I am currently running my CTR of the MS8, the rest of my amp channels are dedicated to front stage and sub.


This is wrong IMHO. The center needs to be the most capable part of the system from the crossover point (whatever you choose) and up. If you are using the internal amp for center, you may as well do the same for all the other speakers (except subs) because everything will be level matched to that. Just my .02


----------



## pionkej

kaigoss69 said:


> PM179, it sounds like one of your mids may be wired out of phase.


I agree. It could also be the subs. My subs are IB with the basket facing the cab. I had always wired the up backwards (electrically out of phase) to be in phase (acoustically) with the test of the system. The MS8 didn't like this and I had the reported "weak midbass" issue. As soon as I changed it everything worked/sounded perfect.


----------



## pm179

kaigoss69 said:


> PM179, it sounds like one of your mids may be wired out of phase.


Thank you for the response ... I am going out to work on it now and will double check all the wiring (I haven't closed anything up yet so should be simple)

Hopefully the wiring harness pinouts I've been using are correct as I don't know how to test for any of this if my visual check doesn't turn up anything.

I'll report back ... thanks again,

Michael


----------



## subwoofery

strakele said:


> This didn't help much either, unfortunately.


Unless I'm wrong, it seems like your problem doesn't come from the fundamentals (below 500Hz). 
Therefore I recommend you try: 
- rear sub 50 and down @ 18db
- font sub 50-80 @ 18db
- mids 80-*1.6kHz* @ 18db
- high *1.6kHz* and up @ 18 or 24 

Also, just wondering why you like 18dB/oct slopes? Wouldn't it work better with 24dB/oct slope? 

Kelvin 

PS: How much power do you have available for the AR3K? Wondering if this driver isn't pulling your system's dynamic capabilities down with that much substage output available... Tried to up the gain on the AR3K?


----------



## pm179

> PM179, it sounds like one of your mids may be wired out of phase.





> I'll check them & report back


Well I spent all day out there again & here is a quick summary (lol, quick for me anyhow)

-- Checked all wiring and all was correct according to the pinouts I had

-- Flipped first the left side and then the right side speaker wires at the amp just in case the pinouts I was using were wrong ... retuned after each change no better with left flipped & worse with right flipped 

-- changed the midbass drivers from ms8 amps over to extra 75 x 2 channels I had ... retuned ... it did help the tinniness / cave like sound but still no help for image ... still right of center

Now I don't know what to do as I tried all combination's I could think of ... 

-- so I placed towels over right rear and NOW we're getting somewhere !!! Image got better ... placed towel over left rear too and it got worse again

-- retuned again with NO side/rears in the mix and BINGO !!! Center Image :wings: I think I'll be happy with tomorrows tuning 

Thank God, I was starting to think the ms8 magic wasn't going to happen for me 

Cold & tired but finally excited about this thing ... now I just need to figure out the best x-over points & slopes 

Michael


----------



## Loudy

pm179 said:


> Well I spent all day out there again & here is a quick summary (lol, quick for me anyhow)
> 
> -- Checked all wiring and all was correct according to the pinouts I had
> 
> -- Flipped first the left side and then the right side speaker wires at the amp just in case the pinouts I was using were wrong ... retuned after each change no better with left flipped & worse with right flipped
> 
> -- changed the midbass drivers from ms8 amps over to extra 75 x 2 channels I had ... retuned ... it did help the tinniness / cave like sound but still no help for image ... still right of center
> 
> Now I don't know what to do as I tried all combination's I could think of ...
> 
> -- so I placed towels over right rear and NOW we're getting somewhere !!! Image got better ... placed towel over left rear too and it got worse again
> 
> -- retuned again with NO side/rears in the mix and BINGO !!! Center Image :wings: I think I'll be happy with tomorrows tuning
> 
> Thank God, I was starting to think the ms8 magic wasn't going to happen for me
> 
> Cold & tired but finally excited about this thing ... now I just need to figure out the best x-over points & slopes
> 
> Michael


I have a very similar problem but with less drivers in the mix. I am simply running Alpine components up front with the passive crossovers and a SI BM MkIII; no center, no rears. JBL tech told me to try covering my tweeters, adjusting my HP, running sweeps at various problems, etc. but nothing is working. The sound is biased to the right and it sounds like a transistor radio but with huge bass. I have to turn my sub level all the way down. Imaging is worse, but it sounds better with the MS8 tuning deactivated. 

Could this be a phase issue? Any ideas?


----------



## strakele

subwoofery said:


> Unless I'm wrong, it seems like your problem doesn't come from the fundamentals (below 500Hz).
> Therefore I recommend you try:
> - rear sub 50 and down @ 18db
> - font sub 50-80 @ 18db
> - mids 80-*1.6kHz* @ 18db
> - high *1.6kHz* and up @ 18 or 24
> 
> Also, just wondering why you like 18dB/oct slopes? Wouldn't it work better with 24dB/oct slope?
> 
> Kelvin
> 
> PS: How much power do you have available for the AR3K? Wondering if this driver isn't pulling your system's dynamic capabilities down with that much substage output available... Tried to up the gain on the AR3K?



I tried exactly what you suggested (except crossover at 2K instead of 1.6) the other night and that didn't make much difference either.

18dB slopes to get the front sub to play a bit lower (since 50Hz is as low as I can go on the MS-8) and higher and to let the midbasses play a bit lower (trying to maximize the midbass area). And since the MS-8 corrects phasing, I figured using odd order slopes wouldn't be a big deal.

I have 500W available to each AR3K. They're not very efficient, but with this much power, they can get very very loud. A while ago, I had the gains up a bit higher and ran the calibration at a super low volume and the result was incredibly loud. Still not where I want the drum impact though.

500W each to AR3K
500W each to Ebony
~450W to front sub
up to 1500W @ 2 ohms to rear subs. I'm toying with IB right now and currently have a brand new AE SBP15 in the trunk

Obviously a ridiculous amount of power and I'm sure it never approaches these numbers. It should be able to do what I want. (and it has, when processing off the 9887).


----------



## Darth SQ

Bluenote said:


> Good point and good advise as well! Thanks Kelvin!
> @ Bret, I am messing with perfection ( as you call it )  because I have a serious disease called MIIJ...an acronym for Maybe If I Just...it's very contagious too! Lol


Maybe you should apply the following rule:

WWBD?



What would Bing do? 

But that won't probably help because he's the dealer that feeds your addiction.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Bluenote

@Bret...I've ran it buy Bing...and he suggests I get over it LOL.


----------



## subwoofery

strakele said:


> I tried exactly what you suggested (except crossover at 2K instead of 1.6) the other night and that didn't make much difference either.
> 
> 18dB slopes to get the front sub to play a bit lower (since 50Hz is as low as I can go on the MS-8) and higher and to let the midbasses play a bit lower (trying to maximize the midbass area). And since the MS-8 corrects phasing, I figured using odd order slopes wouldn't be a big deal.
> 
> I have 500W available to each AR3K. They're not very efficient, but with this much power, they can get very very loud. A while ago, I had the gains up a bit higher and ran the calibration at a super low volume and the result was incredibly loud. Still not where I want the drum impact though.
> 
> 500W each to AR3K
> 500W each to Ebony
> ~450W to front sub
> up to 1500W @ 2 ohms to rear subs. I'm toying with IB right now and currently have a brand new AE SBP15 in the trunk
> 
> Obviously a ridiculous amount of power and I'm sure it never approaches these numbers. It should be able to do what I want. (and it has, when processing off the 9887).


Hmm... Beginning to run out of ideas lol 

- You said in one of your post that you did not want to boost the hell out of the 125Hz-250Hz range 
- We know that the range that needs work (fundamentals) on is between 60Hz-500Hz 

Last shot then I'm out , what about: 
Lower the gains a bit on your Ebonys and recalibrate with the following Xover points: 
- rear subs 50Hz and down @ 18db
- front sub 50Hz @ 18db and *160Hz* *@* *24dB*
- mids *160Hz* *@* *24dB* and *400Hz* *@* *24db* 
- highs *400Hz and up @* *24dB* 
After calibration is done, put back your amp gains to where it were. 

That way, you should have a bit more volume in the range you need without boosting the 125Hz-250Hz too much... 
I based my suggestion on the target curve that the MS-8 shoots for - without making it sound like crap  









Also try to boost 800Hz a bit, I found that it adds a bit of punch to bass lines. 

Kelvin


----------



## strakele

Thanks, I'll try that too. I've also talked with a couple other forum members and have a few things to try over the weekend. I wonder if anyone has RTA'd their car with all levels and EQ and everything flat and see how closely it resembles that curve.


----------



## nineball

i know this has been covered before but after searching quite a while yesterday and today i still haven't found the post. i am having a problem with lack of output from my sub, and if i recall correctly the "fix" was to lower the gain on the sub amp, re-run calibration and then bring the gain back up, correct? simply increasing the gain on my sub amp did practically nothing in terms of output so i am hoping i have this right. mid output is great, just need more sub.


----------



## pm179

pm179 said:


> -- retuned again with NO side/rears in the mix and BINGO !!! Center Image :wings: *I think I'll be happy with tomorrows tuning*
> 
> Thank God, I was starting to think the ms8 magic wasn't going to happen for me
> 
> Cold & tired but finally excited about this thing ... now I just need to figure out the best x-over points & slopes
> 
> Michael


Well another full day of tuning this thing and still not happy ... very frustrating piece of ... equipment  ... I need a drink

Ya think ya got it nailed down .. just a little tweak of a xover point or slope ... rerun the whole setup to make your one change and its is COMPLETELY different !!! Just can't get any consistency out of it ... guess I'll try again tomorrow :laugh:


----------



## pm179

nineball said:


> i am having a problem with lack of output from my sub, and if i recall correctly the "fix" was to lower the gain on the sub amp, re-run calibration and then bring the gain back up, correct?
> ...
> 
> *mid output is great*, just need more sub.


Hmmm ... I am having the opposite problem ... lots of bass (for me) but no midbass/mid ... bass and bright tinny sound up front is what I have (some one else described it as transistor radio lol)

I found that turning down the ms8 volume helped greatly with the bass, along with having your gains down too ... I am down in the -34 to -37 range on the ms8 master volume for my sweeps ... then when I'm done I turn the amp gains up and I have good bass ... I just can't find the right combination that gives me everything

Please tell me how your getting the great midbass & mids??

Michael

ps ... I even made a make shift center channel & added it to my lower console ... no problem with center imaging anymore


----------



## pm179

outsiders said:


> bump for this question. is it worth it to add a center speaker so low? i don't want to cut my dash up either.


Hi outsiders,

I had to just go ahead and give this a try and I think I like it ... what "should" really be good is the ability to stage for both front seats. Once I get decent sound & properly adjust the ms8 I will know better ;-)

I have a 2009 honda accord with a 7x7" square-ish compartment at the bottom console (in front of shifter) that has been out for my install. I made a quick & dirty baffle and mounted a 6 1/2 driver I had in the garage ... it definitely pulled the image down a little BUT it seemed to lock it in much better. I then found the tweeter & passive xover to go with it ... I played around with the tweeter up on the dash and it raises the image back up (please forgive my generic use of terms - this is still a stock speaker system afterall ;-)

... then I spent the rest of the day running and rerunning (and rerunning) the autotune ...

I wouldn't even bother with center channel if I rode in the car by myself, but since I have friends / family in it all the time I'd like for them to have a nice sound too, ESPECIALLY after they've seen me working on this thing for the last week & half ...

Now that I know that I want to keep the center I will try to use the plastic compartment itself as a housing for the speaker/baffle when I put it all back together (I have to cut out a shelf that divides it into two sections) .. I have no idea how the volume of air in the 7x7 housing will effect the sound but I'm betting it will improve it compared to the baffle just laying up against the area now :laugh: ... my problem is how to route & wire the tweeter up on the dash

Good luck,

Michael


----------



## kaigoss69

pm179 said:


> I found that turning down the ms8 volume helped greatly with the bass, along with having your gains down too ... I am down in the -34 to -37 range on the ms8 master volume for my sweeps ... then when I'm done I turn the amp gains up and I have good bass ... I just can't find the right combination


maybe a stupid question but do you leave the MS8 volume at the calibration volume?


----------



## pm179

> maybe a stupid question but do you leave the MS8 volume at the calibration volume?


No ... after each retune I turn it up to the recommended -6db to listen to the system. I leave it there and then use my factory HU / Steering wheel controls to adjust volume up / down afterward

Michael


----------



## subwoofery

nineball said:


> i know this has been covered before but after searching quite a while yesterday and today i still haven't found the post. i am having a problem with lack of output from my sub, and if i recall correctly the "fix" was to lower the gain on the sub amp, re-run calibration and then bring the gain back up, correct? simply increasing the gain on my sub amp did practically nothing in terms of output so i am hoping i have this right. mid output is great, just need more sub.


You need to give us a bit more infos in order to be able to help you... 

Xover point? Slope? 
How many subs? 
Calibration volume? 
Gains set to 2V? Even for the subwoofer's amp? 
Etc... 

Kelvin


----------



## Lorin

I tend to calibrate at around -34 or so. After done, I end up adjusting to -6 to -9. It really helps when testing to eliminate elements while testing (without sub, tweeters, etc.). at the very least, it provides a reference of sorts. I tend to use a single song I am quite familiar with when testing so that I can A\B the differences directly after making any changes. Tedious, yes. Beneficial, yes. Waste of time, not so much. I just keep reminding myself that my learning curve is being changed fairly significantly in a relatively short amount of time. The MS-8 is awesome for that. I am sort of getting to the point that I am questioning many of the things that I "thought" I knew. both frustrating and enlightening at the same time.


----------



## taibanl

kaigoss69 said:


> It's a workaround I did to compensate for lacking midbass output. After calibrating with the sub, midbass was virtually gone, no impact whatsoever. So I eliminated the sub channel from the MS-8 and re-calibrated with the midbass playing down to the sub frequencies (20Hz). I then added the sub back in by splitting the midbass signal at the amp, using the amp's x-over.


Curious,

why wouldn't you split it and calibrate it with the MB and SW already combined onto two channels?

Hmmm as I write this, I am thinking maybe hook the sub in after the T/A portion (first sweep IIRC) is complete but let it EQ with the Sub piggybacked on the channel


----------



## kaigoss69

taibanl said:


> Curious,
> 
> why wouldn't you split it and calibrate it with the MB and SW already combined onto two channels?
> 
> Hmmm as I write this, I am thinking maybe hook the sub in after the T/A portion (first sweep IIRC) is complete but let it EQ with the Sub piggybacked on the channel


I never tried that. My theory is that the sub has such a large peak (small sealed enclosure) in its FR that it ends up messing with the calibration.


----------



## nineball

pm179 said:


> Hmmm ... I am having the opposite problem ... lots of bass (for me) but no midbass/mid ... bass and bright tinny sound up front is what I have (some one else described it as transistor radio lol)
> 
> I found that turning down the ms8 volume helped greatly with the bass, along with having your gains down too ... I am down in the -34 to -37 range on the ms8 master volume for my sweeps ... then when I'm done I turn the amp gains up and I have good bass ... I just can't find the right combination that gives me everything
> 
> Please tell me how your getting the great midbass & mids??
> 
> Michael
> 
> ps ... I even made a make shift center channel & added it to my lower console ... no problem with center imaging anymore





subwoofery said:


> You need to give us a bit more infos in order to be able to help you...
> 
> Xover point? Slope?
> How many subs?
> Calibration volume?
> Gains set to 2V? Even for the subwoofer's amp?
> Etc...
> 
> Kelvin



avic z110bt (130 software), dyn md100 (sails, 22uF cap), mw160 (doors), type-r 6x9 (rear deck), single custom built 8 in a sealed enclosure (e8 d4, copper wound coil, single med spider, e8 cone assembly, aluminum inverted cap, rated at 600rms), two jbl ms-a4001 (one bridged to mids), ms-a5001, ms-8.

[email protected] tweet, [email protected] mid, [email protected] rear, [email protected] sub. calibrated at -40 (and -30 and -50, all the same as far as the sub goes), gains @ ~2v. leave the ms-8 at -6 and use hu volume control.

for ****s and giggles i used the ms-8 disc test and found 36 on the hu was the sweet spot but then started over bypassing this step.

same equipment previously except for the amps (was a coustic 35x2 for tweets, pdx 2.150 mids, ms-8 rear, pdx 1.600 sub) and it sounded fantastic the first time i ran calibration but like always i got that itch and wanted the new ms amps. the sub has really disappeared with my current setup. i boosted from 63 down to 30 on the ms-8 eq and that helped a bit, turned up the gain a bit and that made a barely noticeable difference.


----------



## subwoofery

nineball said:


> avic z110bt (130 software), dyn md100 (sails, 22uF cap), mw160 (doors), type-r 6x9 (rear deck), single custom built 8 in a sealed enclosure (e8 d4, copper wound coil, single med spider, e8 cone assembly, aluminum inverted cap, rated at 600rms), two jbl ms-a4001 (one bridged to mids), ms-a5001, ms-8.
> 
> [email protected] tweet, [email protected] mid, [email protected] rear, [email protected] sub. calibrated at -40 (and -30 and -50, all the same as far as the sub goes), gains @ ~2v. leave the ms-8 at -6 and use hu volume control.
> 
> for ****s and giggles i used the ms-8 disc test and found 36 on the hu was the sweet spot but then started over bypassing this step.
> 
> same equipment previously except for the amps (was a coustic 35x2 for tweets, pdx 2.150 mids, ms-8 rear, pdx 1.600 sub) and it sounded fantastic the first time i ran calibration but like always i got that itch and wanted the new ms amps. the sub has really disappeared with my current setup. i boosted from 63 down to 30 on the ms-8 eq and that helped a bit, turned up the gain a bit and that made a barely noticeable difference.


Might have a cancellation in the sub range due to your vehicle acoustics... 

A few recommendations: 
#1 - rears no lower than 100Hz. If you use a Xover below 100Hz, it's gonna put the low freqs back in phase with the front stage drawing your soundstage to the back 
#2 - Try 80Hz and 63Hz for the Xover between sub and mids
#3 - reverse the phase on your subwoofer and repeat #2 
#4 - are your MS-As Xover defeated? 
#5 - did you try the sub volume from the MS-8? 
#6 - how's the sub volume when calibrating? Can hear it only? Can feel it? 

Kelvin


----------



## CraigE

taibanl said:


> Curious,
> 
> why wouldn't you split it and calibrate it with the MB and SW already combined onto two channels?


I've tried it this way many times, with no issues.


----------



## nineball

subwoofery said:


> Might have a cancellation in the sub range due to your vehicle acoustics...
> 
> A few recommendations:
> #1 - rears no lower than 100Hz. If you use a Xover below 100Hz, it's gonna put the low freqs back in phase with the front stage drawing your soundstage to the back
> #2 - Try 80Hz and 63Hz for the Xover between sub and mids
> #3 - reverse the phase on your subwoofer and repeat #2
> #4 - are your MS-As Xover defeated?
> #5 - did you try the sub volume from the MS-8?
> #6 - how's the sub volume when calibrating? Can hear it only? Can feel it?
> 
> Kelvin


1, 2 and 3 will have to wait. today is clean the garage and get the bike and other cars ready for winter day.

4 - yes
5 - yes, but i was not happy with the result. it seemed to increase the low end everywhere and "muddy" my mids, and before you ask yes everything is connected correctly.
6 - yep


----------



## taibanl

CraigE said:


> I've tried it this way many times, with no issues.


@CraigE. Do you have the sub connected during the t/a sweep?


----------



## jaceves

taibanl, Thanks very much for the reply.

The Infinity 6.5 are located in midway up on the forward part of the door. I am not running any external amp. All speakers and sub are running off the MS-8. It's worth mentioning that I had attempted to run Alpine SPR-60C comp. speakers for the front and dash but they never sounded quite right so I replaced them with the Infinity's. 

Any addtional suggestions would be much appreciated.


----------



## subwoofery

nineball said:


> 1, 2 and 3 will have to wait. today is clean the garage and get the bike and other cars ready for winter day.
> 
> 4 - yes
> 5 - yes, but i was not happy with the result. it seemed to increase the low end everywhere and "muddy" my mids, and before you ask yes everything is connected correctly.
> 6 - yep


How about saturating the mic in boosting the subwoofer gains so that the MS-8 runs out of cuts while calibrating? 
I remember that a lot of people complained that the subwoofer was too present when doing the above... 

Kelvin


----------



## taibanl

jaceves said:


> taibanl, Thanks very much for the reply.
> 
> The Infinity 6.5 are located in midway up on the forward part of the door. I am not running any external amp. All speakers and sub are running off the MS-8. It's worth mentioning that I had attempted to run Alpine SPR-60C comp. speakers for the front and dash but they never sounded quite right so I replaced them with the Infinity's.
> 
> Any addtional suggestions would be much appreciated.


So I am trying to figure out if you have two sets of front drivers. You said a 4" set in the dash(where exactly) and a 6.5 coax in the door. Did you add one of these locations?

You could of course use the doors as "sides" but that's really not what the ms-8 is designed for. The sides in an ms-8 are for ambient effects so it would be overkill to use your 6.5 in the door as a side while using the 4" in the dash as a front. 

Edit:

Please post your complete topology including ms-8 output channels and crossovers chosen

Also remind me what is your goal

I'm hoping there's an outside chance that your 4" dash is a center but thats not what I'm getting.


----------



## Tony2006

Hope someone can help.. I recently sold my truck after all the help i had on here to get the ms-8 working good. 

i now have a 2007 Acura Tl Type S. i am wondering if anyone can help me with installing my ms-8. I want be able to still use all my functions such as navi,bluetooth and ect.

I cant put an aftermarket hu so im having to use the stock HU.


----------



## CraigE

taibanl said:


> @CraigE. Do you have the sub connected during the t/a sweep?


Yes the sub is connected.
Nothing is changed,muted,covered,disconnected, on the sub, during recalibration.

I have a small sealed sub enclosure. The sub sweeps were always 15-20 db louder than the other sweeps, even with the sub amp gain set to minimum.

The sweep levels are all very close now, using the Kaigoss method, and sub playing during calibration.
Sub timing is much better.


----------



## kaigoss69

CraigE said:


> Yes the sub is connected.
> Nothing is changed,muted,covered,disconnected, on the sub, during recalibration.
> 
> I have a small sealed sub enclosure. The sub sweeps were always 15-20 db louder than the other sweeps, even with the sub amp gain set to minimum.
> 
> The sweep levels are all very close now, using the Kaigoss method, and sub playing during calibration.
> Sub timing is much better.


Hmm, and midbass timing is good, too???


----------



## CraigE

kaigoss69 said:


> Hmm, and midbass timing is good, too???


MB timing is good.
IIRC Andy discussed that the MS-8 time corrects to the higher frequencies during the TA sweeps of each channel.
That is why when a passive x-over is used between midrange and tweeter, the recommendation is to cover or disconnect the tweeter (when the tweeter is not located next to the midrange) during the first (TA) set of sweeps at each listening position.
In that case midrange timing is more critical.

Now think about a passive x-over between SW and MB.


----------



## guisar

Has anyone tried a HP for the entire front stage? I am planning using RS150 for the front stage and center and RS225 for mid-bass with a crossover of around 300 (eg 80-300 going to the 224 and 300-~2k to the RS150 with higher frequencies going to a SEAS tweeter). The issue being the only place the RS225s will fit is in the rear. I have a subaru wagon and was planning on putting the RS225 in the load area and experimenting which direction for them sounded best. This means the mid-bass (80-300) will be well behind the front stage and about at ear level. I assumed the TA in the MS8 would "fix" this but is this incorrect? 

TLDR: is a 300Hz HP for the "Front stage" going to result in OK sounding stage, response and TA?


----------



## rage-wrx

2 days ago I got the dreaded "please wait" on the monitor.

I read through the thread and as some others suggested I tried wiggling the monitor wire & this fixed the problem.There seems to be some sort of loose connection at the MS8's end.

Even though the issue is fixed what can be done to make sure this does not happen again.Will changing the wire fix the issue or is it something within the MS8?


----------



## nineball

rage-wrx said:


> 2 days ago I got the dreaded "please wait" on the monitor.
> 
> I read through the thread and as some others suggested I tried wiggling the monitor wire & this fixed the problem.There seems to be some sort of loose connection at the MS8's end.
> 
> Even though the issue is fixed what can be done to make sure this does not happen again.Will changing the wire fix the issue or is it something within the MS8?


no one can answer that for you. we don't know if the cable was pinched or loose, or if the connection on the ms-8 is loose or what else may have caused it. you will have to investigate for yourself.


----------



## rage-wrx

The cables were properly inserted on both ends.The screen came back to life after I wiggled the output jack on the MS-8.


----------



## musicfan

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Please, no more of this tweeterless widebander crap.


OK, y'all have convinced me to add a set of tweeters to supplement the highs from my Hybrid L3SE's. If I'm understanding this correctly, their cone diameter causes narrowed dispersion at the high frequencies, so I need to add tweeters to get wider dispersion in the upper range. However, I still have a few questions: 

1) I'm planning to run the tweeters and the L3SE off the same MS-8 channels, with some sort of passive crossover. Can I just use a capacitor inline with the tweets (-6db/octave rolloff), or do I need to put an inductor inline with the mids to roll them off as well? Or do I need a full-blown 12db/octave crossover?

2) Out of necessity, the L3SE's are mounted in the corners of the dash, tilted toward the listener a bit but still reflecting off the windshield. I can put the tweets very close to them to minimize time alignment problems, but would it be better to mount the tweets (A) right next to and on the same axis as the mids, or (B) on the a-pillar an inch or two further away from the mids, but aimed more directly on axis toward the listener(s)?

3) What crossover frequency should I be shooting for with the tweets?


Thanks for any advice you can give!

P.S. The rest of my system is detailed in this post.


----------



## dlheman

Hello boys and girls.

I just thought I should share with you all about my experience with JBL MS8 competition held in Jakarta last weekend. Andy was there to judge, and it was the perfect time for me to have him judge my car audio and seek guidance from him to make it even better. 

My system used all 8 channels; front (2-way), center (2-way), side (coax), rear (coax) and subwoofer. I had difficulties with overpowering subwoofer, but that can come to rest now. In my situation since my tweeter is on the kick panel, I added ribbon tweeter on the A-pillar to help extend the high playing from 10khz. I took Andy's suggestions to try just using the tweeters on the kick panel, and voila. 

From the suggestions he gave to my friends I also raised the gain on my side and rear speakers. 

*After a re-tune, the following are the results:*
1. Wiiiide sound stage, well beyond the A-pillar. Andy already gave me high score for depth and it is well beyond the steering wheel and to my ear beyond the windshield. And now with such wide sound stage, it is getting quite difficult to get out from the car if you know what I mean. 

2. Improved 7 drum test. During the competition I didn't do well in this area, as the first 3 drum beats are stuck on the left pillar, while the rest although quite separated they jump around resulting in unorganized gap between each beat. Right now, all 7 drum beats are separated correctly, with the first two beats collapsing but the rest are dead flat across the sound stage above the dashboard.

3. Most important bit of all - music just got a whole lot better to listen to!

There's more to mention but those are the three which are significant to mention, and its not perfect yet but I will keep improving my car audio system with Andy's suggestion, hints and tricks as my guideline. No speakers and amplifier will be changed, just tuning to optimized what I already installed.




Andy also gave each competitors a CD he made to hear what Logic 7 can do. After I did the re-tune, I listened to it, and the first track is a song by the Eagles - Desperado. It's a live recording, and here in this track I genuinely feel I am in a middle of a crowd watching the Eagles performing right in front of me. As the crowd cheers I can hear them in front of me, right besides me, behind me - everywhere, but they're not with the Eagles on the sound stage. I've never been to a concert, and now I am considering it. 

Then as I was listening to this particular track on the CD, I heard there was someone coughing inside the car, I think behind me. Since there was no one else in the car other than me, I thought perhaps there was someone outside my car telling me to shut off my car audio, but there was no one. Then I realized that 'someone' who cough came from the recording. It truly sounded that real to me. It was creepy!

After that there's a song which put the nail in the coffin that yes my sound stage is well beyond the A-pillar. There's no need to shut my eyes to concentrate if the sound stage is truly beyond the A-pillar. If I just look ahead as if I am driving and listen to the song, I can hear instruments as far as my side view mirrors. It is just an illusion but it sounds so real. But we don't listen with eyes, we listen with our ears and my ears are easily convinced as to how wide the sound stage is. 

Can the same be said if I listened to stereo recording? Yes, and that's the incredible thing about Logic 7. It takes time (but not long) to convinced myself because I don't want to be a fool who goes around telling everybody how the sound stage is. But with more listening to just songs I like to hear, I am able to pick up things I didn't heard before, such as the layers of the song, the instrument placement of the songs, and where the vocalists are on the sound stage. Not all songs can give all of this experience at once, obviously it depends on the recording. But if its there - boy oh boy it is there alright. As for DVD movie, logic 7 kick ass!

I should also mentioned, it is worth playing with the 31 band e.q but do use RTA to smooth any peak and dip to get that extra sound quality refinement. If you setup your speaker placement correctly, and set the MS8 crossover correctly, chances are you will see MS8 did at least 90 percent of the job. The results I mentioned above are purely based on MS8 auto-tune, once I solved the 7 drum beats I will use RTA to check and fine tune. 

Cheers~!


----------



## 14642

dlheman,
Nice to meet you over the weekend and I'm glad my tips were helpful. BTW, that Eagles track is a downmix from a DVD. That's why it plays back in full surround. You should experience similar performance if you choose the 2-channel downmix in most any DVD's setup menu.


----------



## kaigoss69

dlheman said:


> From the suggestions he gave to my friends I also raised the gain on my side and rear speakers.


Thanks for the interesting post. Can you please elaborate on the above. Did you raise the gains before or after the calibration? Do you have sides and rears connected in parallel (you don't seem to have enough channels to run them separately). Did that have an effect on the front stage width?


----------



## Frank Drebin

dlheman said:


> ~shortened for length


Mind sharing a little info about your setup? 

Vehicle, equipment, etc?

Thanks!


----------



## thehatedguy

I want a L7 demo disk.


----------



## quietfly

thehatedguy said:


> I want a L7 demo disk.


Ditto...

maybe Andy can upload an iso somewhere we can get it.


----------



## pionkej

thehatedguy said:


> I want a L7 demo disk.


3rd!


----------



## quietfly

hey dlheman, can you make an ISO of the disk for us?


----------



## dlheman

Hello~

Regarding increasing the rear and side gain level, I did it before the auto tune. I set it so it has slightly higher volume than my front and center speakers during acoustic calibration. I also sincerely believe by doing so it also helped me improved my car audio soundstage 7 drum beat test. One of my friend who also scored poorly for that test was able to improved his soundstage by doing the same thing. It is only after we both increased the gain level of the side/rear for higher calibration volume level than the front we are able to improve the 7 drum beat test. 

And to test this, just now I've been testing again and again, at diff level of gain for side/rear - the best result is again obtained only when my rear/side are at slightly higher volume than the front during calibration. When the rear/side volume is not enough, the first three drum beat got stuck together on the left side and all sort of funky spacing are happening for the rest of it. 

Once the 7 drum beats test is good, that width beyond A-pillar came back. At least that's how my friends and I able to get out soundstage wider than the A-pillar based on our setup.


----------



## dlheman

Since someone ask for my system's equipment and setup:

Vehicle: 2011 Nissan X-Trail.

Head unit: Nakamichi CD700

Front: AVI Direct LX with custom 36db passive - kick panel setup.

Center: AVI Direct LX with custom 24db passive - firing upwards towards the windshield, and tweeter on the windshield side. 

Side: JBL GT5-650 coaxials - on standard rear door location.

Rear: JBL GT5-650 coaxials - on custom parcel shelf, housed on a angled pod firing towards the rear window. 

Sub: AVI SLS-300, with custom dual port box. 

Front / sub amp: DLS Ultimate A5

Side / rear amp: Audison SRx4

Center: JBL 2 chan Grand Touring amp.


*My settings on MS8:*
Subsonic: 20hz 12db
Front/Sub - 80hz 24db
Center: 100hz 24db
Side/Rear: 100hz 24db


----------



## dlheman

quietfly said:


> hey dlheman, can you make an ISO of the disk for us?


I don't know how to make an ISO of the disk, if someone can help me on how to do it and tell me where can I upload the file for you guys to download - yeah sure man!


----------



## dlheman

kaigoss69 said:


> Thanks for the interesting post. Can you please elaborate on the above. Did you raise the gains before or after the calibration? Do you have sides and rears connected in parallel (you don't seem to have enough channels to run them separately). Did that have an effect on the front stage width?


Most definitely!

I have both sides and rears since I am on passive setup for the front and center. I deliberately go for passive (I also like passive better, but of course with the right speaker placements) because I simply have to try full 8 channels Logic 7.


----------



## kaigoss69

dlheman said:


> Most definitely!
> 
> I have both sides and rears since I am on passive setup for the front and center. I deliberately go for passive (I also like passive better, but of course with the right speaker placements) because I simply have to try full 8 channels Logic 7.


OK cool, then technically, in MS-8 terms, you have 1-way fronts and center, not 2-way.

For the ISO, I use DVD Decrypter. Works great and is easy to use.

Edit: That program is for DVDs, not sure if it works for CDs.... I'll check. Nope, won't work for CDs. Perhaps you want to rip to FLAC and then host the files? I'm not the expert so I'll let someone else recommend what program to use and where to upload, etc.


----------



## pionkej

dlheman said:


> Most definitely!
> 
> I have both sides and rears since I am on passive setup for the front and center. I deliberately go for passive (I also like passive better, but of course with the right speaker placements) because I simply have to try full 8 channels Logic 7.


How close are your speakers to each other? I've always heard they need to be within a 1/4 wavelength to have the TA treat them as a single speaker. 

I'm curious because getting some feeback on this MAY be the difference between me running 5.1 and 7.1 on my build.


----------



## 14642

Guys, give me a few minutes and I'll post a track list so you can get the music somewhere or find it in your own libraries. I'll upload a link to the track that I made.


----------



## quietfly

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Guys, give me a few minutes and I'll post a track list so you can get the music somewhere or find it in your own libraries. I'll upload a link to the track that I made.


Thanks!!!


----------



## 14642

Here are the tracks I suggest using to listen to Logic7. 
1. "Desperado" (2-channel downmix) from Hell Freezes Over--Eagles
2. EMMA disc Track 11
3. "Big Blue Ball" from Big Blue Ball
4. "Ancient Highway" from Days Like This--Van Morrison
5. "A Case of You" from Live in Paris--Diana Krall
6. "Open Car" from Deadwing--Porcupine Tree
7. "Can't Find My Way Home" from Live from Madison Square Garden--Eric Clapton and Steve Winwood
8. "P-Leather" from GrooveYard--FreekBass
9. "Dream Cafe" from Dream Cafe--Greg Brown
10. "Have a Little Faith in Me" from Bring the Family--John Hiatt
11. "Never Turn Back" from Piety Street--John Scofield
12. "Repo Man" from God Willin' and the Creek Don't Rise--Ray LaMontagne and the Pariah Dogs
13. "Tala Matrix" from Live in San Fransisco--Tabla Beat Science
14. "Chocolate Jesus" from Mule Variations--Tom Waits

I chose these because of the quality of the recordings and the spatial attributes that, in many cases, include plenty of room information--and rooms of all sizes. A few of them are studio recordings but include lots of other details that are really interesting on really good systems.

There's an additional spoken track that I made to demonstrate logic7. That's mine and I'll post it on dropbox and post a link here in a little while.


----------



## 14642

For what it's worth, I listened to nearly 40 cars with MS-8s over the weekend and ALL of them were really good. Some standouts. No big problems. No bad EQ. All sounded very similar. All had bass up front with NO hint of impact from the rear. Half had center channels. About 1/3 were all passive systems. Another 1/3 were all active systems and the final 1/3 had hybrids to do 3-way fronts. About half included rear speakers and Logic7 and and the other half didn't.

So, 40 or so great sounding cars, all with MS-8 and most of the peeps had read the manual.


----------



## quietfly

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> For what it's worth....40 or so great sounding cars, all with MS-8 and *most* of the peeps had read the manual.


this made me LOL


----------



## pionkej

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> For what it's worth, I listened to nearly 40 cars with MS-8s over the weekend and ALL of them were really good. Some standouts. No big problems. No bad EQ. All sounded very similar. All had bass up front with NO hint of impact from the rear. Half had center channels. About 1/3 were all passive systems. Another 1/3 were all active systems and the final 1/3 had hybrids to do 3-way fronts. About half included rear speakers and Logic7 and and the other half didn't.
> 
> So, 40 or so great sounding cars, all with MS-8 and most of the peeps had read the manual.


It's crazy what reading the manual can do.  Thanks for the track list.

I would like to ask a "_What would Andy do_" question if you have the time.

My front speakers (left, center, right) will all be 2-way with the mids within 4" of each the tweeters. Rear seats are not of concern so 7.1 would be to enhance front seats. All passive options would be crossed at the amps.

I can run the MS8:

Passive up front and go 7.1*
Active left and right and passive center (5.1)
Active center and passive left and right(5.1)

If I go 7.1, sides would be coaxials down in the rear factory door locations and rears would be molded into the d-pillars (rear most pillars). If I go 5.1, sides would default to the d-pillar location which is at ear level.


----------



## 14642

Where will the left right and center speakers be mounted?


----------



## 14642

Here's a link to the other track:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26702498/DSP%20Demo%20Disc%20VO%20Stereo%20reverb%20rotat.m4a

This is a spoken track that I recorded in mono and "encoded" to play back in L7. The voice should start in the center and move clockwise around the car if L7 is on.


----------



## pionkej

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Where will the left right and center speakers be mounted?


I know it's not your "favored" location, but they will be in the far corners of the dash.

EDIT: Thanks for the help no matter what. As always, your commitment to this forum (and specifically this thread) is greatly appreciated.


----------



## subwoofery

pionkej said:


> It's crazy what reading the manual can do.  Thanks for the track list.
> 
> I would like to ask a "_What would Andy do_" question if you have the time.
> 
> My front speakers (left, center, right) will all be 2-way with the mids within 4" of each the tweeters. Rear seats are not of concern so 7.1 would be to enhance front seats. All passive options would be crossed at the amps.
> 
> I can run the MS8:
> 
> Passive up front and go 7.1*
> Active left and right and passive center (5.1)
> Active center and passive left and right(5.1)
> 
> If I go 7.1, sides would be coaxials *down in the rear factory door locations* and rears would be molded into the d-pillars (rear most pillars). If I go 5.1, sides would default to the d-pillar location which is at ear level.


Not a good idea - ear level is most preferred

Kelvin


----------



## 14642

The fronts will be a mid and a tweeter? What size mid will go in the top corner of the dash? Help me out here with enough information to help you.


----------



## pionkej

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The fronts will be a mid and a tweeter? What size mid will go in the top corner of the dash? Help me out here with enough information to help you.


Sorry Andy, 660GTi's for all front speakers firing up. Mids and tweets both on the dash.


----------



## 14642

Then I'd do 5.1 and connect sides and rears in parallel and biamp the front. Are you going to use the waveguides? Please say, "Yes".


----------



## pionkej

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Then I'd do 5.1 and connect sides and rears in parallel and biamp the front. Are you going to use the waveguides? Please say, "Yes".


Yes to the waveguides.  

So you don't think I should ditch the passive and run any active? I could use all 8 channels if I did left and right active and center passive -or- 7 if I went center active and
left/right passive.


----------



## thehatedguy

Andy,

Are you going to link the whole disk in Dropbox?

And where can I get the raw waveguides? I was hoping to find them in the JBL Pro Parts catalog somewhere, but must have missed them.


----------



## 14642

No, I'm not going to post the rest of the tracks. That's not nice.


----------



## dlheman

pionkej said:


> How close are your speakers to each other? I've always heard they need to be within a 1/4 wavelength to have the TA treat them as a single speaker.
> 
> I'm curious because getting some feeback on this MAY be the difference between me running 5.1 and 7.1 on my build.


Very close to each other. I will try post some photos tonight.


Edit - You are referring to my kick panel, right?


----------



## thehatedguy

Had to ask since I don't have any of those on your list.


----------



## dlheman

Another good CD to try logic 7 is Chesky's natural surround sound test disc.


----------



## 14642

thehatedguy said:


> Had to ask since I don't have any of those on your list.


Where have you been, man?


----------



## thehatedguy

Flipping phases on my mids


----------



## ErinH

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Here are the tracks I suggest using to listen to Logic7.
> 1. "Desperado" (2-channel downmix) from Hell Freezes Over--Eagles
> 2. EMMA disc Track 11
> 3. "Big Blue Ball" from Big Blue Ball
> 4. "Ancient Highway" from Days Like This--Van Morrison
> 5. "A Case of You" from Live in Paris--Diana Krall
> 6. "Open Car" from Deadwing--Porcupine Tree
> *7. "Can't Find My Way Home" from Live from Madison Square Garden--Eric Clapton and Steve Winwood*
> 8. "P-Leather" from GrooveYard--FreekBass
> 9. "Dream Cafe" from Dream Cafe--Greg Brown
> 10. "Have a Little Faith in Me" from Bring the Family--John Hiatt
> 11. "Never Turn Back" from Piety Street--John Scofield
> 12. "Repo Man" from God Willin' and the Creek Don't Rise--Ray LaMontagne and the Pariah Dogs
> 13. "Tala Matrix" from Live in San Fransisco--Tabla Beat Science
> 14. "Chocolate Jesus" from Mule Variations--Tom Waits
> 
> I chose these because of the quality of the recordings and the spatial attributes that, in many cases, include plenty of room information--and rooms of all sizes. A few of them are studio recordings but include lots of other details that are really interesting on really good systems.
> 
> There's an additional spoken track that I made to demonstrate logic7. That's mine and I'll post it on dropbox and post a link here in a little while.


(bolded)

Such an awesome album. I went back and listened to this track after I read your post. 

Steve Winwood's _Back in the High Life_ is an incredible CD as well. 

Thanks a lot, Andy. You've just made certain that I'll be up late listening to music after my daughter goes to bed.


----------



## ErinH

thehatedguy said:


> Flipping phases on my mids


lol. man, I hope everyone appreciates this comment the way I did.


----------



## dlheman

Some photos


----------



## Loudy

bikinpunk said:


> lol. man, I hope everyone appreciates this comment the way I did.


I am not sure if I get it or not if it was a joke but that actually helped my MS-8 midbass issue!


----------



## Neil_J

QFT:


Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Putting one midrange out of phase to "fix" the center image is one of those things. MS-8 HATES that and will sound terrible if you do this. There won't be any midbass, but the delay adjustment will provide a decent center image, anyway. If you don't like MS-8's target curve and the 31-band EQ doesn't provide enough range to change it to something you do like, then manual tuning may make you happier.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy,

I have had the sides and rears connected in parallel since I did not have enough channels left. I was wondering how important it is to have the sides and rears playing on separate channels, since one contributes to stage depth, and the other to width. Surely it would be a compromise to run them in parallel, no?

My stage width is good, but the depth not so much. I can regain 2 channels by running the front door speakers and underseat midbass drivers passively, crossed over at the amp. I don't think TA would be a big problem, given the location of the midbasses. Would this be worth trying in your opinion?


----------



## thehatedguy

Been wondering the same thing too.


----------



## quietfly

thehatedguy said:


> Flipping phases on my mids


That made me LOL!!!


----------



## ErinH

Neil_J said:


> QFT:


I made the comment because of just that. Phase with midbass/sub is a pita. That's why I laughed at Jason's comment... because it's so damn true.


----------



## iD Z24

Jason, I always flop my mids! I think Matt invented that.


----------



## quality_sound

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, I'm not going to post the rest of the tracks. That's not nice.


Not to be a douche or anything, but how is putting in in Dropbox any different than burning CDs and giving them away?


----------



## subwoofery

May sound stupid but since you don't want to upload those tracks (due to copyright issues I guess)... why not ask your employer (Harman - JBL) to create a Demonstration CD similar to what Focal does and sell it in order to "show off" the MS-8 capabilities? 

Dealers might appreciate it and you might end up increasing your MS-8 sales... 

Kelvin


----------



## 14642

quality_sound said:


> Not to be a douche or anything, but how is putting in in Dropbox any different than burning CDs and giving them away?


I think I'm just about finished here.


----------



## pionkej

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I think I'm just about finished here.


Andy,

I cannnot fault you for feeling that way, but I hope you reconsider. There are MANY people who appreciate your contributions here and I hope our voices will outweigh the snide remarks of one or two. 

I certainly hope that if you are indeeded "finished", it only means "finished" with this thread and not the forum entirely. Even if this thread has MOSTLY devolved into troubleshooting that could be fixed by following simple directions, there are still good questions. Somebody above asked if there would be any gain to "depth" by going from 5.1 with side and rears in parallel vs. 7.1. There ARE still people here who look for, and want, your expertise and help.


----------



## bfrance

pionkej said:


> Andy,
> 
> I cannnot fault you for feeling that way, but I hope you reconsider. There are MANY people who appreciate your contributions here and I hope our voices will outweigh the snide remarks of one or two.
> 
> I certainly hope that if you are indeeded "finished", it only means "finished" with this thread and not the forum entirely. Even if this thread has MOSTLY devolved into troubleshooting that could be fixed by following simple directions, there are still good questions. Somebody above asked if there would be any gain to "depth" by going from 5.1 with side and rears in parallel vs. 7.1. There ARE still people here who look for, and want, your expertise and help.


Agreed!

-Ben


----------



## 14642

quality_sound said:


> Not to be a douche or anything, but how is putting in in Dropbox any different than burning CDs and giving them away?


I see a pretty big difference between making a tool to be used for a weekend in personally helping a bunch of car audio enthusiasts and music lovers expand their ability to use products they've purchased, futher their enjoyment of their hobby and expose them to some great art to which they might not have been exposed otherwise and posting a link (which would probably be reposted over and over) to copyrighted material to be consumed for free by thousands of people who should gladly and enthusiastically compensate the creators of that art for their contributions. 

To make things right, and considering that I made 30 copies, I've just spent about $450 out of my own pocket (for which my company likely won't reimburse me) purchasing 30 copies of each track online.

To my friends in Jakarta: Merry Christmas. I hope you enjoy the gift and *please *do the right thing.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I see a pretty big difference between making a tool to be used for a weekend in personally helping a bunch of car audio enthusiasts and music lovers expand their ability to use products they've purchased, futher their enjoyment of their hobby and expose them to some great art to which they might not have been exposed otherwise and posting a link (which would probably be reposted over and over) to copyrighted material to be consumed for free by thousands of people who should gladly and enthusiastically compensate the creators of that art for their contributions.
> 
> To make things right, and considering that I made 30 copies, I've just spent about $450 out of my own pocket (for which my company likely won't reimburse me) purchasing 30 copies of each track online.
> 
> To my friends in Jakarta: Merry Christmas. I hope you enjoy the gift and *please *do the right thing.


Good man and thank you for the track list. I was able to find 11 out of the 14 tracks online. 10 from my subscription music service and the other I had to buy from iTunes. I could not find any of the live performances though, those seem like they would be the best ones to demo too.


----------



## 14642

All on Amazon


----------



## pionkej

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I see a pretty big difference between making a tool to be used for a weekend in personally helping a bunch of car audio enthusiasts and music lovers expand their ability to use products they've purchased, futher their enjoyment of their hobby and expose them to some great art to which they might not have been exposed otherwise and posting a link (which would probably be reposted over and over) to copyrighted material to be consumed for free by thousands of people who should gladly and enthusiastically compensate the creators of that art for their contributions.
> 
> To make things right, and considering that I made 30 copies, I've just spent about $450 out of my own pocket (for which my company likely won't reimburse me) purchasing 30 copies of each track online.
> 
> To my friends in Jakarta: Merry Christmas. I hope you enjoy the gift and *please *do the right thing.


Andy,

I'd say you went above and beyond in doing this.

If his intentions were to "not sound like a douche" I certainly hope he* FEELS *like one now.


----------



## dlheman

Let me tell ya guys, my friends and I did not go home as the winners of the competition, but we go home with a trophy of our own; Andy's input. 

I should also mention, Andy never told us to change our setup but he always help us improved what we have. But we decided to go further and stay close to the idea we get from Andy's explanation about MS8 and Logic7.

In our case, the one thing we learnt is to scrap any ideas about what we know regarding processor (usually we use PXA-H701 and expert at it). We start fresh and not applying any ideas that is outside the scope of MS8. We also scrap the idea of just using front, sub and rear. And we get results far exceeding our expectations about MS8. 

For those who said there's a lack of manual adjustment; its just not necessary. Our installer and tuner used to complained about the lack of manual adjustment and prefer the PXA-H701. But now he is just happy with what MS8 offers, simplicity. Using just tone control, system control, 31 band E.Q, and RTA; we get the results we wanted. 

From my group, 9 cars entered the competition. We have all kind setup; full passive, full active, and hybrid passive/active. I am the only one with full 8 speaker locations, the rest only use front and rear. 

With my car as test bed using Andy's input, we were amazed with the results! Now the rest of the 8 cars are changing the setup to make use of all 8 speakers locations in the name of Logic7. If not, minimum 7 locations as it is understandable cutting a hole on the dashboard for center speaker can be a big ask. 


So a big thanks to Andy for his contribution! 

P.s - whatever he told me and my friends, is actually available here in this forum. Search for it, and approach it with fresh mind, and let MS8 do what it wants to do. You'll be amazed, guaranteed.


----------



## Bluenote

Dlheman, thanks for the summary! I would have loved to been there to get some of Andy's direct input! After seeing your settings mainly with the Ctr @ 100hz/24db I decided to try it on my set up and it's even better now in L7. Ive typically ran my center @80hz /24db and it was very good but @ 100hz the front stage is more airy and ethereal + I still have good Midbass. Thanks again for sharing


----------



## Dr_jitsu

*MS8 cra[[ed out on me*

I bought one from forum member SouthSyde a while back, I did not install it in the car for a while (we were replacing the engine on my M3 and it took longer than expected) but finally had it put it. He had used it for a couple of months.

I had Rocky of Rockstar designs do all my work, and he is pretty experienced w/ the MS-8. After about 2 days w/ the car my left channel started cutting out and when he diagnosed the problem, he found that the left channel rca plug was shot.

Since I was not the original buyer I am pretty sure I am TSOL on this one, but will I have problems if I pick up another one? Amazon has them for $549 right now. 

And BTW, I don't think SouthSyde intentionally sold me a bad unit (at least I hope not).


----------



## Lorin

I finally wired my "new" center speaker up today (6.5 Morel integra ovation) and re-ran the MS8 tune and was thoroughly impressed. To my suprise, the separation improved and I was concerned that it would detract somehow? I also seemed to get stronger midbass from my doors (I was experiencing some of the "weak" midbass many seem to find). Who knew adding the center could help as much as it seems to? I havent yet found an easy way to add the rear speakers in, as I am running a 3-way active front end. Not sure that the stock speaker location in the rear doors (bottom of door) will help much?


----------



## Bluenote

Lorin, that's great! I have a Morel Maximo 5.25 for a center and always wanted to try the integras. Do you have pics of your Ctr channel you could post?


----------



## dlheman

Yes, is ok to use your stock rear speaker door location. I did and I know many who also did. Some said is better to have it higher, that too make sense, but then just because your rear door speaker is sitting on the bottom doesn't mean the MS8 can't do what its supposed to do with side channels. 

Go for it!


----------



## Frank Drebin

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Here are the tracks I suggest using to listen to Logic7.
> 1. "Desperado" (2-channel downmix) from Hell Freezes Over--Eagles
> 2. EMMA disc Track 11
> 3. "Big Blue Ball" from Big Blue Ball
> 4. "Ancient Highway" from Days Like This--Van Morrison
> 5. "A Case of You" from Live in Paris--Diana Krall
> 6. "Open Car" from Deadwing--Porcupine Tree
> 7. "Can't Find My Way Home" from Live from Madison Square Garden--Eric Clapton and Steve Winwood
> 8. "P-Leather" from GrooveYard--FreekBass
> 9. "Dream Cafe" from Dream Cafe--Greg Brown
> 10. "Have a Little Faith in Me" from Bring the Family--John Hiatt
> 11. "Never Turn Back" from Piety Street--John Scofield
> 12. "Repo Man" from God Willin' and the Creek Don't Rise--Ray LaMontagne and the Pariah Dogs
> 13. "Tala Matrix" from Live in San Fransisco--Tabla Beat Science
> 14. "Chocolate Jesus" from Mule Variations--Tom Waits
> 
> I chose these because of the quality of the recordings and the spatial attributes that, in many cases, include plenty of room information--and rooms of all sizes. A few of them are studio recordings but include lots of other details that are really interesting on really good systems.
> 
> There's an additional spoken track that I made to demonstrate logic7. That's mine and I'll post it on dropbox and post a link here in a little while.


Don't know if here or a new thread is a better idea, wondering if others could post some of their favorite tracks that showcase the MS8 especially well.


----------



## dlheman

Below are some photos of one of my friends' car, who wish to re-do his system to make a full use of MS8 Logic7. 

The car is Honda Civic EF, and although is a very old car, it is a very special little car to build car audio system. For its class, it won Andy's highest score during the competition. To us this car is like a dream toy as it is easily modified to create car audio system. It does however requires thinking outside the box. 

As for now it is a full active system, but by next week the front will use a custom 12db passive to make room for side speakers. 


*System specification:*















*Amps: 4 x ARC amplifier*









*Front: SB Acoustics 5.25" midbass + Vifa tweeter (I think XT25?)*

*Side: 6.5" inch full range (unsure of the make and model).* The speaker is actually sitting on a custom parcel shelf like mine, but for now we assign side channel for it. 

*Sub: Kicker 12"*


And last night we added:
*Center: JBL GT5-650C *

















To meet the requirement of adding center channel without creating a hole on the dash, we decided to create a sealed enclosure for the center channel. It is possible to do so because of the design of the dash. Impressed by the JBL GT5-6502 coaxials on my car for side/rear duties, we decided to opt for JBL GT5-650C 2-way component speakers for his center. Since my center channel works very well, we also opt for the same speaker layout, including where the MS8 display unit is put on display.























Yeah baby! It somehow reminded me of Robocop each time I saw that photo. Not only I think it looks damn cool, it also don't distract the driver view of the road. 

Would you believe it if I said its perfect on first acoustic measurement scan? Since I forgot to take photo of the RTA (I can't show you width, depth, and soundstage layering on paper), it has to be heard to be believed I guess?









Well just look at how wide is the smile of the car owner. Enjoy it Peter!

_The owner would like to say thanks to Andy for his great help and support. _


----------



## dlheman

Bluenote said:


> Dlheman, thanks for the summary! I would have loved to been there to get some of Andy's direct input! After seeing your settings mainly with the Ctr @ 100hz/24db I decided to try it on my set up and it's even better now in L7. Ive typically ran my center @80hz /24db and it was very good but @ 100hz the front stage is more airy and ethereal + I still have good Midbass. Thanks again for sharing


No worries champ!


----------



## nineball

ok, this is a first for me and i'm hoping someone else has had it happen. fwiw tweet @[email protected], mids @[email protected], rear (side) @[email protected], sub @[email protected], sweeps @ -40

swapped out my tweets this weekend and re-ran calibration. prior to running it i had sound in all speakers, started the setup and had the test noise from each channel, ran calibration and while all sweeps are even and can be heard (-40) from each speaker once it is done i get no output from the right front (tweet in sail, mid in door) or my rears. turned off logic 7 and the left rear started working but still nothing on the right. swapped rca cables and had sound on the right after calibration but not left.

i an thinking it may be the mic. anyone else?


----------



## quality_sound

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I see a pretty big difference between making a tool to be used for a weekend in personally helping a bunch of car audio enthusiasts and music lovers expand their ability to use products they've purchased, futher their enjoyment of their hobby and expose them to some great art to which they might not have been exposed otherwise and posting a link (which would probably be reposted over and over) to copyrighted material to be consumed for free by thousands of people who should gladly and enthusiastically compensate the creators of that art for their contributions.
> 
> To make things right, and considering that I made 30 copies, I've just spent about $450 out of my own pocket (for which my company likely won't reimburse me) purchasing 30 copies of each track online.
> 
> To my friends in Jakarta: Merry Christmas. I hope you enjoy the gift and *please *do the right thing.



I understand the copyright issues, Andy. My point, which I didn't explain at all, really, was that DIYMA is also a small community. Make the DropBox folder private and then you control who has access to the files. If they decide to give that information out that's out of your control. I don't see it as any different than someone at the seminar ripping the disc and then uploading it to rapidshare and giving it away. 

I was just thinking it would be something nice for the DIYMA community. Some of us are geographically isolated so we can't just run to out local music shop to look for the discs that have these tracks and iTunes isn't really an option. 

That was all, I'm done with this topic. Carry on.


----------



## quality_sound

Dr_jitsu said:


> *MS8 cra[[ed out on me*
> 
> I bought one from forum member SouthSyde a while back, I did not install it in the car for a while (we were replacing the engine on my M3 and it took longer than expected) but finally had it put it. He had used it for a couple of months.
> 
> I had Rocky of Rockstar designs do all my work, and he is pretty experienced w/ the MS-8. After about 2 days w/ the car my left channel started cutting out and when he diagnosed the problem, he found that the left channel rca plug was shot.
> 
> Since I was not the original buyer I am pretty sure I am TSOL on this one, but will I have problems if I pick up another one? Amazon has them for $549 right now.
> 
> And BTW, I don't think SouthSyde intentionally sold me a bad unit (at least I hope not).


Talk to Andy and see what he can do before you make any other decisions. He's been great about taking care of people.


----------



## 14642

It's definitely not the microphone.


----------



## nineball

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> It's definitely not the microphone.


ok. any thoughts on what it might be?


----------



## taibanl

I think giving out a small number of discs where andy was onsite and personally listening to/critiquing customers cars is arguably fair use under copyright law. 

Hosting files for each of us to "enjoy" logic 7 is not. We are as much "enjoying" the artist's music (source material)as we are the processing. And for that we need to buy the music.


----------



## 14642

check your PM, but it sounds to me like:
1. you're using an aftermarket radio and the outputs are plugged into inputs 1 and 5 rather than 1 and 2. or...
2. You're using an OE radio and several of the inputs and you chose "Skip input setup" during setup. "Skip input setup" sends channels 1 and 2 directly to the preamp section of the DSP without summing channels or un-EQ.


----------



## 14642

Can we just cool it with the requests for me to upload copyrighted material to some file sharing site? I'm not going to do it. I feel strongly that it's not the right thing to do and I wouldn't appreciate it if someone uploaded a schematic, a bill of materials and the DSP code for MS-8 to dropbox and I see no significant difference between those two scenarios. I gave all of you guys the track that I created. 

Musicians make a living creating stuff that we like to listen to. Paying for the music is one way to say "Thanks". I feel certain that those of you who work appreciate being paid.


----------



## Dr_jitsu

quality_sound said:


> Talk to Andy and see what he can do before you make any other decisions. He's been great about taking care of people.


I have to buy another unit.


----------



## taibanl

Sorry andy. As a former artist and now atty i had to put in my 2c after it got too far. I think what you did was noble but not required. Thanks.


----------



## 14642

taibanl said:


> Sorry andy. As a former artist and now atty i had to put in my 2c after it got too far. I think what you did was noble but not required. Thanks.


Thanks.


----------



## subwoofery

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Can we just cool it with the requests for me to upload copyrighted material to some file sharing site? I'm not going to do it. I feel strongly that it's not the right thing to do and I wouldn't appreciate it if someone uploaded a schematic, a bill of materials and the DSP code for MS-8 to dropbox and I see no significant difference between those two scenarios. I gave all of you guys the track that I created.
> 
> Musicians make a living creating stuff that we like to listen to. Paying for the music is one way to say "Thanks". I feel certain that those of you who work appreciate being paid.


My post may have been overlooked so I'll post it again... 



> May sound stupid but since you don't want to upload those tracks (due to copyright issues I guess)... *why not ask your employer (Harman - JBL) to create a Demonstration CD similar to what Focal does and sell it in order to "show off" the MS-8 capabilities?
> 
> Dealers might appreciate it and you might end up increasing your MS-8 sales... *
> 
> Kelvin


----------



## thehatedguy

Damn, I feel sorry that I even brought it up.


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> Damn, I feel sorry that I even brought it up.


Don't worry about it... Some stuffs gets blown out of proportion all the time... Just enjoy your sunday 

Kelvin


----------



## dentalpain

Hello to all, I just joined this great site.

Quick Question from a new user:
My factory HU gets an ok, ok, ok from vol range of 23 to 35 out of 40. Where should I begin the calibration. What effect will different volumes have? 

System:
2011 Honda Accord 6-6 with premium audio
Front: Focal 165KR
Rears: Focal 165 Access
Sub: JL 13W6
Amp: JL HD900

After several calibrations I found 25 on the HU and around -31db on the ms8 gave the best results. (rat shack spl meter in the mail) JL amp gains were fully closed. Absolutely amazing results. Took some effort to get that last few % (clipping at high vol) from the system but this customer is pleased. I have recommended the MS8 to several friends and even wrote an amazon review! I typically set the ms8 to -6db and adj the HU vol to a max of my calibration vol (~25). I raised the hd900 gains to a little less than half (a tick below audible distortion). 

Thanks again guys


----------



## GWijaya

Hi Andy,its me Ganda from Jakarta.I've tried the cd you gave me during your last visit to Jakarta and i did some simple re-tunning to my car stereo system with your advice.And now my stereo sounds better then the time you judged my car in Jakarta.Bravo!!!Andy...Thanks...


----------



## Salami

dentalpain said:


> Hello to all, I just joined this great site.


Welcome. Notice the search this thread function, let it be your friend. 




dentalpain said:


> Quick Question from a new user:
> My factory HU gets an ok, ok, ok from vol range of 23 to 35 out of 40. Where should I begin the calibration. What effect will different volumes have?


The answer is all ready in this thread: None.





dentalpain said:


> After several calibrations I found 25 on the HU and around -31db on the ms8 gave the best results.


Once the head unit limits are found in set up it makes ZERO difference what the head units volume is during calibration. Did you notice it tells you to turn the volume down after it sets the head unit corrections? It is so people don't blow their **** up when the auto EQ is done running.


----------



## dentalpain

Salami said:


> Welcome. Notice the search this thread function, let it be your friend.
> 
> 
> The answer is all ready in this thread: None.
> 
> 
> 
> Once the head unit limits are found in set up it makes ZERO difference what the head units volume is during calibration. Did you notice it tells you to turn the volume down after it sets the head unit corrections? It is so people don't blow their **** up when the auto EQ is done running.


Thanks for your reply. I have read the majority of this thread and ms8 threads out on the nets I am just a newb (or may have missed this specifically). Most of the directions I came across said once the ms8 gives ok, ok, ok *stop* (2.8v give or take?). My setup allows for anywhere bewteen 23-35 to be ok, ok, ok and I was asking what effect differentt HU vol would have on calibration or the final EQ. I understand the input and output calibrations tones are decoupled. Of course I had the HU at zero during the audio calibration. And unplugged the mic when finished, etc. 

Would calibrating the input at a higher HU vol allow a higher radio volume at a given output. Currently, I set the ms8 to -6db and the HU to a max of 25 (where I aquired my input signal) and adjusted the gains (11oclock) for a max clean output. What if I aquired at 35?


----------



## t3sn4f2

There can be a change in how the system sounds over the upper volume depending on what head unit volume setting you pick when running the input setup. This is because those honda head units have a volume depending loudness contour that boost the bass and highs as you reduce the volume. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/11912-acura-tsx-stock-headunit-measurements.html

So if you calibrate at a very high volume where the response becomes flat, you will have the loudness benefit at lower volumes. And if you calibrate at lower head unit volumes where the response is contoured, you will have a reduction in bass and highs at higher volume settings and a flat overall response in all lower volume settings. Due to the ms-8 input setup nulling the loudness contour and the head unit reducing it further at high volume settings.

This is separate than what the OEM amp does to shape the response further for the particular car and speakers.

I would bypass the oem amp with a mercman harness and calibrate at a head unit volume where the response is flatter and I still have some volume range above that setting for low recording levels or very dynamic music. That way the loudness contour is still there at lower volume settings, which is nice.


----------



## quality_sound

thehatedguy said:


> Damn, I feel sorry that I even brought it up.


Don't be. I think it came across lke I was bitching. I was just clarifying what I meant. I didn't take any of it personally and neither should anyone else.


----------



## kforce

(pics of install https://picasaweb.google.com/104395636370284500004/December122011# )


Been keenly following this great thread, Thought I’d give my experience. Converted my car with ms8 + replaced the nasty stock 4” with 5 * ‘Pioneer TS E1002i’. 
Still not sure what x-over to set between the under seat’s and my Pioneers - thought the ms8 would have all the equipment to be able to auto-detect the optimal x-overs and hi/low filters (like my amp at home), rather than trying to experiment with hundreds of combinations. Screen saver is a nice to have, but I normally just tuck the screen into the ashtray – luckily don’t smoke.
I was really trying to like the logic7, but it just takes away so much width from the experience, so it’s permanently off now - maybe I need to try to configure the underseats as 2 subs rather than 2-ways, don’t know.
taken about 6months, but really happy with the sound, the 4-channel amp powering the underseats brings the low-end alive + the doors. Very happy with my purchase, only gripe is the cheap-looking hard-to-use remote, if jbl sold an add-on touch-screen console – I’d buy it tomorrow!


----------



## 14642

GWijaya said:


> Hi Andy,its me Ganda from Jakarta.I've tried the cd you gave me during your last visit to Jakarta and i did some simple re-tunning to my car stereo system with your advice.And now my stereo sounds better then the time you judged my car in Jakarta.Bravo!!!Andy...Thanks...


Cool! I'll look forwad to hearing it again next time.


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> There can be a change in how the system sounds over the upper volume depending on what head unit volume setting you pick when running the input setup. This is because those honda head units have a volume depending loudness contour that boost the bass and highs as you reduce the volume.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...12-acura-tsx-stock-headunit-measurements.html
> 
> So if you calibrate at a very high volume where the response becomes flat, you will have the loudness benefit at lower volumes. And if you calibrate at lower head unit volumes where the response is contoured, you will have a reduction in bass and highs at higher volume settings and a flat overall response in all lower volume settings. Due to the ms-8 input setup nulling the loudness contour and the head unit reducing it further at high volume settings.
> 
> This is separate than what the OEM amp does to shape the response further for the particular car and speakers.


Right answer. Thanks.


----------



## Dhohn

How is this supposed to compare to the Audison BitOne ?


----------



## 14642

One is an apple and the other is an orange. They're both fruit.

I've written about that comparison a thousand times. It's in the thread.


----------



## NWS Alpine

So I finally took delivery of my new car this past week and started ordering all my cables. 

I ended up getting the knuconceptz kolossus fleks 0 gauge dual amp power kit. I will be installing the MS-8 and my JL HD900/5 off this kit. After the fused distro block it goes down to 4 gauge. What connector do I need to get the wire installed on the MS-8. I know 4 gauge is complete overkill for the MS-8 but there is plenty in the kit so I will try to use it. 

Will something like this connect the 4 gauge power and ground wires to the MS-8 terminals? http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=ST48BL


----------



## Frank Drebin

NWS Alpine said:


> So I finally took delivery of my new car this past week and started ordering all my cables.
> 
> I ended up getting the knuconceptz kolossus fleks 0 gauge dual amp power kit. I will be installing the MS-8 and my JL HD900/5 off this kit. After the fused distro block it goes down to 4 gauge. What connector do I need to get the wire installed on the MS-8. I know 4 gauge is complete overkill for the MS-8 but there is plenty in the kit so I will try to use it.
> 
> Will something like this connect the 4 gauge power and ground wires to the MS-8 terminals? Knukonceptz product detail for GOLD PLATED 4 GAUGE SPADE TERMINAL -BLUE


Yes that will work. I ordered the 8 ga stuff from Knu FWIW. 

edit: I would really suggest going down to 8 gauge. 4 is just too big. IMO.


----------



## drpepper

Hi guys

Somehow my display port on the ms8 broke. I'm honestly not sure how it happened. I noticed my display wasn't turning on so I went to the trunk and the plug was wiggly. Well now I can't get the display to come on and the port is loose. 

Anyone opened these things up? Would it be a simple solder job?


----------



## NWS Alpine

Frank Drebin said:


> Yes that will work. I ordered the 8 ga stuff from Knu FWIW.
> 
> edit: I would really suggest going down to 8 gauge. 4 is just too big. IMO.


I placed a second order to knuconceptz and ordered some 8 gauge power ground of the same fleks stuff and connectors. Hopefully it fits the terminals.


----------



## NWS Alpine

I have one last question for my install before I get it going. Scott from Hybrid recommended a 4-5uF inline cap for the positive line going to the tweeters to protect them. I have seen other saying that you should use 20uF caps. I'm not sure about all this as I have never run active before.

The tweeter will be hooked up to my HD900/5 and will get 100w. It's the tweeter from the HAT Imagine component set.


----------



## drpepper

drpepper said:


> Hi guys
> 
> Somehow my display port on the ms8 broke. I'm honestly not sure how it happened. I noticed my display wasn't turning on so I went to the trunk and the plug was wiggly. Well now I can't get the display to come on and the port is loose.
> 
> Anyone opened these things up? Would it be a simple solder job?



   help........


----------



## Frank Drebin

NWS Alpine said:


> I have one last question for my install before I get it going. Scott from Hybrid recommended a 4-5uF inline cap for the positive line going to the tweeters to protect them. I have seen other saying that you should use 20uF caps. I'm not sure about all this as I have never run active before.
> 
> The tweeter will be hooked up to my HD900/5 and will get 100w. It's the tweeter from the HAT Imagine component set.


Andy had said what he preferred for a cap, I think it was 20.

20uf @ 4 ohm will block anything less than 2khz, I imagine most tweeters can handle 2khz and up.
Car Audio - Speaker Crossover Chart and Capacitance vs. Frequency Calculator(High-pass)

5uf will block anything less than 8khz, which is quite high. I'm going to use 20 as I plan on crossing over at 3500-4000hz in a 2 way system

Two way components are typically crossed over at 3k-4k, while 3 way may be at 5k or higher for the tweeter.


----------



## Frank Drebin

drpepper said:


> Hi guys
> 
> Somehow my display port on the ms8 broke. I'm honestly not sure how it happened. I noticed my display wasn't turning on so I went to the trunk and the plug was wiggly. Well now I can't get the display to come on and the port is loose.
> 
> Anyone opened these things up? Would it be a simple solder job?


I think Andy in the past has not recommended trying to DIY repair.

A little tip from someone who has broken the display port as well (obviously not for you, but for others reading):

Make sure you secure your display cord somehow, so that there will be no stress at all at the connection at the MS8 in the case that you forget to disconnect or pull on the display wire.

I'm zip tying mine to the amp rack, the connection at the unit is quite easy to break.


----------



## 14642

The idea behind the cap is simply to prevent pops and errors from sending low frequencies to the tweeters and the value should be chosen so that the high pass filter is at or outside the band that you'll require the tweeter to play--you'll use the active filter as the real high pass filter.

The suggestion of 4uF is not a good one. Use 20uF.


----------



## 14642

Send the unit back. It appears that the board is broken. I don't suggest trying to repair it your self--in fact, we're not going to repair it, we're going to send you a new unit. 

Pulling on the cord or pulling on the plug won't cause this. Pressing DOWN hard on the connector when it's plugged in will cause this. Where is the unit mounted?


----------



## Frank Drebin

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Send the unit back. It appears that the board is broken. I don't suggest trying to repair it your self--in fact, we're not going to repair it, we're going to send you a new unit.
> 
> Pulling on the cord or pulling on the plug won't cause this. Pressing DOWN hard on the connector when it's plugged in will cause this. Where is the unit mounted?


FWIW this happened to me on my warranty returned unit.

In my haste removing it the display wire caught on the back seat (while removing the back seat), while the MS8 was securely fastened to the amp rack. The display wire pulled at an awkward angle and it broke just like drpeppers. Now I secure it to the amp rack in the off chance I forget again, I'll rip the display wire in 2 before I wreck my MS8.


----------



## NWS Alpine

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The idea behind the cap is simply to prevent pops and errors from sending low frequencies to the tweeters and the value should be chosen so that the high pass filter is at or outside the band that you'll require the tweeter to play--you'll use the active filter as the real high pass filter.
> 
> The suggestion of 4uF is not a good one. Use 20uF.


Thanks Andy. That was the last thing I needed. I have about $250 in cables from knuconceptz in the mail and hopefully if they get here by this weekend I can get everything installed. At that point I will be sure to have more questions (if they aren't already in here).


----------



## CraigE

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Here are the tracks I suggest using to listen to Logic7.
> 1. "Desperado" (2-channel downmix) from Hell Freezes Over--Eagles
> 2. EMMA disc Track 11
> 3. "Big Blue Ball" from Big Blue Ball
> 4. "Ancient Highway" from Days Like This--Van Morrison
> 5. "A Case of You" from Live in Paris--Diana Krall
> 6. "Open Car" from Deadwing--Porcupine Tree
> 7. "Can't Find My Way Home" from Live from Madison Square Garden--Eric Clapton and Steve Winwood
> 8. "P-Leather" from GrooveYard--FreekBass
> 9. "Dream Cafe" from Dream Cafe--Greg Brown
> 10. "Have a Little Faith in Me" from Bring the Family--John Hiatt
> 11. "Never Turn Back" from Piety Street--John Scofield
> 12. "Repo Man" from God Willin' and the Creek Don't Rise--Ray LaMontagne and the Pariah Dogs
> 13. "Tala Matrix" from Live in San Fransisco--Tabla Beat Science
> 14. "Chocolate Jesus" from Mule Variations--Tom Waits
> 
> I chose these because of the quality of the recordings and the spatial attributes that, in many cases, include plenty of room information--and rooms of all sizes. A few of them are studio recordings but include lots of other details that are really interesting on really good systems.
> 
> There's an additional spoken track that I made to demonstrate logic7. That's mine and I'll post it on dropbox and post a link here in a little while.


Thanks, Really good stuff.
I found all but one of these tracks on iTunes. They really showcase what the MS-8 and Logic 7 can do.
Andy,if you have track lists for Vol 2/3... (your favorite MS-8/L7 Tracks), *PLEASE POST MORE*.


----------



## 14642

CraigE said:


> Thanks, Really good stuff.
> I found all but one of these tracks on iTunes. They really showcase what the MS-8 and Logic 7 can do.
> Andy,if you have track lists for Vol 2/3... (your favorite MS-8/L7 Tracks), *PLEASE POST MORE*.


 
Hmmm...the second time is rarely as good as the first. I'll think about this and see what I can come up with.


----------



## akelu

Okay, finally finished my build and tune and im having a single issue.

Basically, all sounds PERFECT, except for the driver side midbass, it seems to be distorting at 70-90hz when getting kind of close to quite loud, but not rediculously loud.

Setup:
2 way front
Sub

Crossovers: 20hz/6 - 80hz/24 - 3000hz

Running it using the 3-way method and assigning sub as low.

Midbass: 6.9" in fully sealed fully deadened door (near pedals)
Tweeter: Morel Supremo dome tweeter mounted in low a-pillar
Sub: Morel ultimo SC 12" running at about .65 QTS


I have more then enough power for all of these on tap.
If i turn off the processing and do signal sweeps i dont get distortion (even generating an 80hz tone and going MUCH louder then what the ms-8 is distorting it at), but as soon as i turn processing on, distortion at around 70-80hz (using an iphone app tone generator).

Any ideas? Have been running the sweeps at about -35 (talking level), with the sub gain quite high because as andy said "there isnt much resolution down there when running subwoofer as low (as opposed to running it as subwoofer) (alternative to kaigoss method).

I've tried a few calibrations using varying gains and it doesnt really seem to help.

Thanks


----------



## kaigoss69

Akelu,

I would try raising the gain on the midbass amp channels and recalibrate.


----------



## quietfly

I have a question about the center channel and xover points. If i set the center channel xover to run from 160and up will all of the midbass that would have been processed in the center be produced by the left and right midbass speakers? or will my center imaging lack that punch?


----------



## 14642

quietfly said:


> I have a question about the center channel and xover points. If i set the center channel xover to run from 160and up will all of the midbass that would have been processed in the center be produced by the left and right midbass speakers? or will my center imaging lack that punch?


Everything that's below the center high pass will be sent to the left and right. Then, everything below the left and right high pass will be sent to the sub. This is why it's important to choose the right crossover for the center. 

Let's say you install a 2" widebander because some company's marketing hooey says it's flat to 100Hz. You set the crossover to 100Hz but the speaker is really 20dB down at 100Hz but only flat to 400Hz. Everything that's below 100Hz will be sent to left and right, but everything between 100 and 400 will be lost or attenuated or boosted like crazy in the center. That will suck. Be reasonable with the crossover and I think you'll find it works fine.


----------



## ZAKOH

Would the sound quality be good if I run my tweeters from JBL-MS8 channels? I have googled for this issue but haven't found a conclusive answer. It seems like there are two views.. one is that 20watts is plenty for most tweeters. The second view is that this will not work well because MS-8 will turn down the amp gain for all other speakers in order to match their gains.. which seems strange.. shouldn't a tweeter that's playing only treble frequencies be as efficient as the woofers?

In my case, I am thinking of the following setup: 

Front speakers: Hybrid Audio Imagine i61-2 running active
Rear speakers: Hybrid Audio Mirus coaxial.

I am thinking of using 4x80watt RMS amplifier to power the front woofers and the rear coaxial speakers, and letting the tweeter use the internel MS-8 amplifier. The crossover frequency between front mids and tweeters will be in the 5000-6000Hz range.


----------



## AndyInOC

ZAKOH said:


> Would the sound quality be good if I run my tweeters from JBL-MS8 channels? I have googled for this issue but haven't found a conclusive answer. It seems like there are two views.. one is that 20watts is plenty for most tweeters. The second view is that this will not work well because MS-8 will turn down the amp gain for all other speakers in order to match their gains.. which seems strange.. shouldn't a tweeter that's playing only treble frequencies be as efficient as the woofers?
> 
> In my case, I am thinking of the following setup:
> 
> Front speakers: Hybrid Audio Imagine i61-2 running active
> Rear speakers: Hybrid Audio Mirus coaxial.
> 
> I am thinking of using 4x80watt RMS amplifier to power the front woofers and the rear coaxial speakers, and letting the tweeter use the internel MS-8 amplifier. The crossover frequency between front mids and tweeters will be in the 5000-6000Hz range.



I asked Andy a similar question about running the rears off the ms8 built in amp and he suggested turning the gains on my other amps way down so that the volume would be about the same for the sweeps, otherwise the difference in spl would be huge and the ms8 would kill the output to the outboard amps. So essentially, try it, level match to your quietest drivers and see what happens.


----------



## ZAKOH

AndyInOC said:


> I asked Andy a similar question about running the rears off the ms8 built in amp and he suggested turning the gains on my other amps way down so that the volume would be about the same for the sweeps, otherwise the difference in spl would be huge and the ms8 would kill the output to the outboard amps. So essentially, try it, level match to your quietest drivers and see what happens.


If a mess with amplifier gains after MS-8 has done its auto tunes, wouldn't that potentially mess up the level balance between tweeters and woofers?

In any case, I don't have a JBL MS-8 right now, but I am building my system with the view towards installing one later.


----------



## Vitty

ZAKOH said:


> If a mess with amplifier gains after MS-8 has done its auto tunes, wouldn't that potentially mess up the level balance between tweeters and woofers?
> 
> In any case, I don't have a JBL MS-8 right now, but I am building my system with the view towards installing one later.


Gain match during the MS-8 calibration and you will be golden  There is a point during calibration where you can play a pink noise test tone out of each channel configured on the MS-8. It is during this portion you gain match the amps to the tweeters running off the ms-8.


----------



## Vitty

How are people running a 3 way front with rear fill and woofers off this thing and getting good results?


----------



## pionkej

ZAKOH said:


> Would the sound quality be good if I run my tweeters from JBL-MS8 channels? I have googled for this issue but haven't found a conclusive answer. It seems like there are two views.. one is that 20watts is plenty for most tweeters. The second view is that this will not work well because MS-8 will turn down the amp gain for all other speakers in order to match their gains.. which seems strange.. shouldn't a tweeter that's playing only treble frequencies be as efficient as the woofers?
> 
> In my case, I am thinking of the following setup:
> 
> Front speakers: Hybrid Audio Imagine i61-2 running active
> Rear speakers: Hybrid Audio Mirus coaxial.
> 
> I am thinking of using 4x80watt RMS amplifier to power the front woofers and the rear coaxial speakers, and letting the tweeter use the internel MS-8 amplifier. The crossover frequency between front mids and tweeters will be in the 5000-6000Hz range.


The advice from everybody else isn't wrong, but I would suggest running the rear-fill off the internal amp instead. Since it isn't tied to either of the front speakers, you can adjust the gains for both the mids and tweets after calibration and the front will be level-matched and only louder in relation to the rear-fill. If you go with the route you plan, the output of the mids and rear-fill will increase and the tweeters will remain fixed (which WILL give an imbalance in your front stage).



Vitty said:


> How are people running a 3 way front with rear fill and woofers off this thing and getting good results?


You would have to do it with some part played passively. In order to do so properly, IMHO, you need the drivers to be within a 1/4 wavelength of each other so it can be processed as one "source".


----------



## thehatedguy

My whole front stage is 3 way. Passives between the mids/tweeters, and use the crossovers in the amps to split the top of the midbass and bottom of the midrange up for the center.



Vitty said:


> How are people running a 3 way front with rear fill and woofers off this thing and getting good results?


----------



## ZAKOH

Vitty said:


> Gain match during the MS-8 calibration and you will be golden  There is a point during calibration where you can play a pink noise test tone out of each channel configured on the MS-8. It is during this portion you gain match the amps to the tweeters running off the ms-8.


Ok, so effectively, I let JBL tune on its own time alignment, equalization, etc.. but I have to match the amplifier gains manually own using the pink noise test tones?


----------



## ZAKOH

By the way, what is the RMS wattage rating of JBL MS-8 amplifier with 2ohm and 4ohm speakers? The manual lists 30 and 20 watts respectively, but it's not clear if this is peak or RMS wattage. Since the internal amp wattage seems low, would it be acceptable to run 2ohm rear fill speakers with it? I have a couple of coaxial 2ohm Infinity Reference speakers that I could use for rear fill duty.


----------



## Lorin

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Everything that's below the center high pass will be sent to the left and right. Then, everything below the left and right high pass will be sent to the sub. This is why it's important to choose the right crossover for the center.
> 
> Let's say you install a 2" widebander because some company's marketing hooey says it's flat to 100Hz. You set the crossover to 100Hz but the speaker is really 20dB down at 100Hz but only flat to 400Hz. Everything that's below 100Hz will be sent to left and right, but everything between 100 and 400 will be lost or attenuated or boosted like crazy in the center. That will suck. Be reasonable with the crossover and I think you'll find it works fine.


question for Andy based on the above: I have a 6.5 inch center installed and matched the x-over to my front speakers (80 hz). It sounds great, but does the statement above mean that I am now using just the center to provide mid bass snap? Each of my three 6.5's (one center, and one in each door) are seeing 200 watts each and are crossed:

center: 80 all the way up (Morel integra ovation coaxial)
doors: 80 to 350hz (have some 3 inch drivers and tweeters in a-pillars from there)

would I benefit by moving the crossover point higher for the center?


----------



## AndyInOC

pionkej said:


> The advice from everybody else isn't wrong, but I would suggest running the rear-fill off the internal amp instead. Since it isn't tied to either of the front speakers, you can adjust the gains for both the mids and tweets after calibration and the front will be level-matched and only louder in relation to the rear-fill. If you go with the route you plan, the output of the mids and rear-fill will increase and the tweeters will remain fixed (which WILL give an imbalance in your front stage).



even better idea, good call


----------



## pionkej

Lorin said:


> question for Andy based on the above: I have a 6.5 inch center installed and matched the x-over to my front speakers (80 hz). It sounds great, but does the statement above mean that I am now using just the center to provide mid bass snap? Each of my three 6.5's (one center, and one in each door) are seeing 200 watts each and are crossed:
> 
> center: 80 all the way up (Morel integra ovation coaxial)
> doors: 80 to 350hz (have some 3 inch drivers and tweeters in a-pillars from there)
> 
> would I benefit by moving the crossover point higher for the center?


From everything I've read, anything that is common between left and right (including midbass) is sent to the center. This information is also played around -6db from the left, right, or both speakers to help with imaging. Anything panned hard left or hard right is steered to those speakers. 

So...anything that goes to center will be played by the center at reference and the side(s) at -6db. If it sounds good to you, I would leave it. You could toy with moving the center up to 100hz to see if you get a bit more output in the transition to your sub (two speakers covering that information instead of a single speaker). Doing this would have 80-100hz played by the sides and they would create a "phantom center" for that range.


----------



## ZAKOH

By the way, once acoustic calibration is done, which aspects of MS-8's configuration are adjustable by hand? For example, can you readjust time alignment? I personally don't like the sound stage centered 100% in front of my eyes. I prefer the center to be a little to the right from the driver seat (left from passenger seat).

Another thing.. is it possible to see a complete report of what was done by MS-8s calibration?


----------



## nineball

ZAKOH said:


> By the way, once acoustic calibration is done, which aspects of MS-8's configuration are adjustable by hand? For example, can you readjust time alignment? I personally don't like the sound stage centered 100% in front of my eyes. I prefer the center to be a little to the right from the driver seat (left from passenger seat).


eq, balance, levels but no t/a adjustments.



ZAKOH said:


> Another thing.. is it possible to see a complete report of what was done by MS-8s calibration?


not unless you have special x-ray vision and can decode on the fly in your head. there is a graph floating around that shows the target curve of the ms-8. should be easy to find with a little searching and give you something.


----------



## Lorin

I dont believe that you can change ta, but you can look at the point of the dash that you want the image to be when doing the calculations (try looking toward the middle of dash instead of right in front).


----------



## taibanl

Peformed the Kaigoss mod over the weekend.

MUCH MUCH improved. No more boomy bass!!! I am so much happier...still have a bit to go though.

Also I noticed that I had calibrated with the front and rear feeds hooked up to MS-8. So I re-aquired with fader full front --> FIXED.

I also used the MS-8 test menu to level match each driver (except the sub). I think this aided considerably with the calibration. I turned down the fronts and the under seats at the amp to be within a few dB of the center and about 5dB of the rears.

I've calibrated a few times at various levels. I got one calibration that had great meaty mid bass; maybe too much. In that instance the sub was totally offline :shrug: I don't know if there is still a relationship or something fishy going on with the cal. I want to get an RTA so I can discount any personal preference of how something should sound. I think my results are VERY close to what they should be, but still lacking some warmth, bottom end; though I couldn't say at what freq's.

As far as the sub, with the kaigoss mod (running off of mid bass channels), it seems to always be weak regardless of input gain. I initially had it set for 2V/-12dB input but it seemed to be audible only when my nugget was next to the sub. I tried 0.5v/0dB and it was audible in the trunk and possibly adding some ambient low end in the cabin, but not distinct unless i max out the Sub gain.

So in short, I've proven my sub can be loud...way way too loud, when hooked up the conventional way on its own channel; I know my mid basses can sound great without the sub, beautiful meaty mid bass. I can't get both at a nice level at the same time. :-/ 

The very good news is that my bass is now gorilla glued to the dash. My front stage is unbelievably better after the mod.

Andy, as per your other BMW/MS-8 thread if there is anything I can try....let me know!


----------



## kaigoss69

Try calibrating without the sub hooked up.


----------



## taibanl

kaigoss69 said:


> Try calibrating without the sub hooked up.


You're right its worth a try.

However, my concern is that I am running a different amp for the subs than the under seats (I can of course set both for 2v) with different speakers and different sensitivities, and in different locations. So if I run the cal all the way down with the under seats, I won't be getting the proper EQ when I make a last minute substitution below 80hz to a sub.

At that point there is essentially no way to get the sub to hit the target curve other than manually (31band) adjusting the EQ where the sub FR isn't on target.


----------



## NWS Alpine

I ended up getting two of these Dayton capacitors from PX Dayton PMPC-20 20uF 250V Precision Audio Capacitor 027-252

Seem to be good for the price. 

Now that everything is getting close to install I really want to get an HD600/4 to go with my HD900/5. I am worried about running my Legatia L4 center channel off the MS8 internal amp. The plan was always to eventually get a second amp. But that would give me 150w to the front active and center. With that power I would have to upgrade the imagine components to clarus or full Legatia  ugh


----------



## ZAKOH

The Imagine woofers should be able to take up to 150watts of power.. so it has been reported. I think it has been mentioned that it would be a good idea to have a coaxial speaker in the front channel, for better dispersion of high frequencies. If you like HAT gear, it may be worth it to wait for the 4 inch coaxial Mirus speakers to become available.


----------



## kaigoss69

taibanl said:


> You're right its worth a try.
> 
> However, my concern is that I am running a different amp for the subs than the under seats (I can of course set both for 2v) with different speakers and different sensitivities, and in different locations. So if I run the cal all the way down with the under seats, I won't be getting the proper EQ when I make a last minute substitution below 80hz to a sub.
> 
> At that point there is essentially no way to get the sub to hit the target curve other than manually (31band) adjusting the EQ where the sub FR isn't on target.


The sub EQ is what screws it up!!! Just do it, you're overanalyzing!  oh, and 60hz will probably work much better.


----------



## NWS Alpine

ZAKOH said:


> The Imagine woofers should be able to take up to 150watts of power.. so it has been reported. I think it has been mentioned that it would be a good idea to have a coaxial speaker in the front channel, for better dispersion of high frequencies. If you like HAT gear, it may be worth it to wait for the 4 inch coaxial Mirus speakers to become available.


I was just falling down that slippery slope of car audio. I forgot that I actually have 3 Legatia 3" not 4". The stock locations are 3" where I am placing them. I got them from the sale they had so I ordered before I got my car. Now that my car finally arrived I need to see what will fit into the center channel. That 4" coaxial sounds like it might be perfect as it will have a better response than the L3 for center channel right?

I have the following setup but really had plans of adding another amp eventually:

MS-8
Chan 1 --> JL AMP --> LF Hi --> Imagine tweeter 100W with 20uF cap
Chan 2 --> JL AMP --> LF mid --> Imagine mid 100W
Chan 3 --> MS8 AMP --> Center --> L3 20W
Chan 4 --> JL Amp --> RF Hi --> Imagine tweeter 100W with 20uF cap
Chan 5 --> JL AMP --> RF mid -- Imagine mid 100W
Chan 6 --> MS8 AMP --> L side --> Rear D pillar L3 20W
Chan 7 --> MS8 AMP --> R side --> Rear D pillar L3 20W
Chan 8 --> JL AMP --> Sub JL stealthbox 10w3v3 500w


If I add a second amp (JL HD600/4 to go with existing HD900/5)
Chan 1 --> JL 600/4 AMP --> LF Hi --> Imagine tweeter 150W with 20uF cap
Chan 2 --> JL 600/4 AMP --> LF mid --> Imagine mid 150W
Chan 3 --> JL 900/5 AMP (2 channels bridged) --> Center --> L3 150W
Chan 4 --> JL 600/4 AMP --> RF Hi --> Imagine tweeter 150W with 20uF cap
Chan 5 --> JL 600/4 AMP --> RF mid -- Imagine mid 150W
Chan 6 --> JL 900/5 AMP --> L side --> Rear D pillar L3 100W
Chan 7 --> JL 900/5 AMP --> R side --> Rear D pillar L3 100W
Chan 8 --> JL 900/5 AMP --> Sub JL stealthbox 10w3v3 500w


I could always sell the rear d pillar L3s and move the imagines to the rear doors in coaxial config. Then replace the center channel with the 4" coaxial that doesn't seem to be out yet.


----------



## 14642

nineball said:


> eq, balance, levels but no t/a adjustments.
> 
> 
> 
> .


 MS-8 is designed to put the center image in the center of the dash, which appears to be what you're after.


----------



## NWS Alpine

Andy,

I have a 2012 Ford Edge Sport with the 12 speaker Sony premium system with MyFordTouch. On the JBL site there is no instructions listed for connecting the high level output from the factory amp for my car. Can I follow the instructions from the 2011 Ford Flex with the same system. It has all the channels connected and not just the two front signals like many do.


----------



## ZAKOH

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8 is designed to put the center image in the center of the dash, which appears to be what you're after.


This is approximately what I am after too. I don't like the center image to be right in front of me, but instead slightly skewed towards the center of the dash. Will this effect exist with no center channel speaker?


----------



## subwoofery

ZAKOH said:


> This is approximately what I am after too. I don't like the center image to be right in front of me, but instead slightly skewed towards the center of the dash. Will this effect exist with no center channel speaker?


It's possible but what I've learned from using T/A on midbass freqs (and articles read from Mark Eldridge), the larger the PLD is (like using doors instead of kicks for midbass), the closer the image is going to be on the driver's side. 
Going for 2-seat judging and using doors for eg. The driver is gonna have his image @ a point between right in front and the middle of the dash (slightly left) whereas the passenger is gonna have his image @ a point between right in front of him and the middle of the dash (slightly right) 
You can move your perception slightly towards the middle of the dash while working on intensity up in freq: 500Hz and up

Kelvin


----------



## Beato

I have my MS8 up and running, still tweaking/tuning and everything has gone well (using stock HU). 

For my install I replaced an LC6i (professionally installed) with the MS8. I took the 8 wires that were going into the LC6i (front R+L Focal comps passive and R+L stock rears) and hooked them into the MS8 input harness.

In hindsight (yes, I read the manual) I now assume I shouldn’t have hooked the four rear wires to the input harness (which I HAD at chnl 3+4 on the harness). I should have only used the four wires from the front comps only (chnl 1+2) and left the rear wires completely out of the equation?

I ran with the rear wires hooked up for a couple weeks and disconnected them today. Did this do any damage?

After reading soooo many threads on this, you start to question the obvious (as I did, even after reading the manual). I’m going to run through a new calibration and am curious how it will sound after correcting the harness (assuming that it is correct now).

Not that it matters coming from me, but think its worth mentioning kudos to Andy for all the support and time he has put into this thread.


----------



## 14642

NWS Alpine said:


> Andy,
> 
> I have a 2012 Ford Edge Sport with the 12 speaker Sony premium system with MyFordTouch. On the JBL site there is no instructions listed for connecting the high level output from the factory amp for my car. Can I follow the instructions from the 2011 Ford Flex with the same system. It has all the channels connected and not just the two front signals like many do.


 
Just use the fronts and the sub (if there is one). Don't connect all the channels to the inputs.


----------



## 14642

Beato said:


> I have my MS8 up and running, still tweaking/tuning and everything has gone well (using stock HU).
> 
> For my install I replaced an LC6i (professionally installed) with the MS8. I took the 8 wires that were going into the LC6i (front R+L Focal comps passive and R+L stock rears) and hooked them into the MS8 input harness.
> 
> In hindsight (yes, I read the manual) I now assume I shouldn’t have hooked the four rear wires to the input harness (which I HAD at chnl 3+4 on the harness). I should have only used the four wires from the front comps only (chnl 1+2) and left the rear wires completely out of the equation?
> 
> I ran with the rear wires hooked up for a couple weeks and disconnected them today. Did this do any damage?
> 
> After reading soooo many threads on this, you start to question the obvious (as I did, even after reading the manual). I’m going to run through a new calibration and am curious how it will sound after correcting the harness (assuming that it is correct now).
> 
> Not that it matters coming from me, but think its worth mentioning kudos to Andy for all the support and time he has put into this thread.


 
No, no damage wil be done by hooking up the rears. In some cars, the rears are delayed, polarity is changed, frequency response is different than the front...none of that is a big deal, it's just more BS for MS-8 to sort out. Since MS-8 only needs enough to make a 2-channel signal, none of the rear channels are necessary. This won't affect the acoustic calibration, but may affect the input calibration.


----------



## BuickGN

ZAKOH said:


> This is approximately what I am after too. I don't like the center image to be right in front of me, but instead slightly skewed towards the center of the dash. Will this effect exist with no center channel speaker?


I can only speak from my experience with the MS8 but my image is just as good without the center as it is with it *in the drive's position*. Running it in one of the "compromise" positions as I call it like front or all, the image is more centered with the center channel working.

It's good enough with the center off that a few times I've had to re-check that the L7 was off and then pull the grill off the center and feel the speaker to make sure it's not playing.


----------



## taibanl

taibanl said:


> Peformed the Kaigoss mod over the weekend.
> 
> MUCH MUCH improved. No more boomy bass!!! I am so much happier...still have a bit to go though.
> 
> Also I noticed that I had calibrated with the front and rear feeds hooked up to MS-8. So I re-aquired with fader full front --> FIXED.
> 
> I also used the MS-8 test menu to level match each driver (except the sub). I think this aided considerably with the calibration. I turned down the fronts and the under seats at the amp to be within a few dB of the center and about 5dB of the rears.
> 
> I've calibrated a few times at various levels. I got one calibration that had great meaty mid bass; maybe too much. In that instance the sub was totally offline :shrug: I don't know if there is still a relationship or something fishy going on with the cal. I want to get an RTA so I can discount any personal preference of how something should sound. I think my results are VERY close to what they should be, but still lacking some warmth, bottom end; though I couldn't say at what freq's.
> 
> As far as the sub, with the kaigoss mod (running off of mid bass channels), it seems to always be weak regardless of input gain. I initially had it set for 2V/-12dB input but it seemed to be audible only when my nugget was next to the sub. I tried 0.5v/0dB and it was audible in the trunk and possibly adding some ambient low end in the cabin, but not distinct unless i max out the Sub gain.
> 
> So in short, I've proven my sub can be loud...way way too loud, when hooked up the conventional way on its own channel; I know my mid basses can sound great without the sub, beautiful meaty mid bass. I can't get both at a nice level at the same time. :-/
> 
> The very good news is that my bass is now gorilla glued to the dash. My front stage is unbelievably better after the mod.
> 
> Andy, as per your other BMW/MS-8 thread if there is anything I can try....let me know!





kaigoss69 said:


> Try calibrating without the sub hooked up.





taibanl said:


> You're right its worth a try.
> 
> However, my concern is that I am running a different amp for the subs than the under seats (I can of course set both for 2v) with different speakers and different sensitivities, and in different locations. So if I run the cal all the way down with the under seats, I won't be getting the proper EQ when I make a last minute substitution below 80hz to a sub.
> 
> At that point there is essentially no way to get the sub to hit the target curve other than manually (31band) adjusting the EQ where the sub FR isn't on target.


*SUCCESS!*

Kaigoss. The calibration was BETTER WITH THE SUB HOOKED UP.

Here is what I've fixed

Balanced, Full Midbass + Sub
LOUD ANNOYING POP reduced by 95% when Sub run off of midbass channels.
Bass image glued to the dash

Here's how.

Calibrate between*
-20 to -23* when running any channels off of Ms-8 power.
Anything lower than this, the MS-8 "gave up" on the mid bass. It was very sensitive to change between -23 and -25 and I got HUGELY different results at those levels. Anything lower and I got similarly poor results. (-30, -35, -40). This runs counter to andy's suggestion that the calibration process is not very sensitive to changes of a few dB. I think thats the gotcha with the BMW, it is sensitive due to the underseat location. Or maybe its just because I level matched within a few dB to the MS-8 powered channels.

Right now I have the sub amp at -0dB/.5v; as I was previously concerned it was under sensitive. I may try and recalibrate at the nominal -12dB/2v level to see if it works there also.

Crossover 80hz/12dB (at the amps), haven't tried other cross points since the fix.

I also don't know if maybe this calibration process would fix the issue with the sub hooked up the conventional way, but I don't think so and am very happy as is.

I am quite convinced that this is fixable Andy with a firmware update. There is something weird with that sub channel, as not only did this fix the mid bass hole, it also fixed the loud POP on power off.


So only two more issues to address
Processor noise (sounds almost like a cyclical very rapid morse code) when MS-8 is powered on but not playing anything.
Clicking/popping (although MUCH quieter, it is still present).

And a few more improvements
Run some 16/4 conductor to the center so I can biamp it (will also require speaker mod/crossover delete.
Get a professional to RTA for me.
Permanently install the display in the visor.
Have display modified with red gel to match BMW interior.


----------



## subwoofery

taibanl said:


> *SUCCESS!*
> 
> Kaigoss. The calibration was BETTER WITH THE SUB HOOKED UP.
> 
> Here is what I've fixed
> 
> *Balanced, Full Midbass + Sub* <-- I think that is the reason why the loud pop got reduced...
> LOUD ANNOYING POP reduced by 95% when Sub run off of midbass channels.
> Bass image glued to the dash
> 
> Here's how.
> 
> Calibrate between*
> -20 to -23* when running any channels off of Ms-8 power.
> Anything lower than this, the MS-8 "gave up" on the mid bass. It was very sensitive to change between -23 and -25 and I got HUGELY different results at those levels. Anything lower and I got similarly poor results. (-30, -35, -40). This runs counter to andy's suggestion that the calibration process is not very sensitive to changes of a few dB. I think thats the gotcha with the BMW, it is sensitive due to the underseat location. Or maybe its just because I level matched within a few dB to the MS-8 powered channels.
> 
> Right now I have the sub amp at -0dB/.5v; as I was previously concerned it was under sensitive. I may try and recalibrate at the nominal -12dB/2v level to see if it works there also.
> 
> Crossover 80hz/12dB (at the amps), haven't tried other cross points since the fix.
> 
> I also don't know if maybe this calibration process would fix the issue with the sub hooked up the conventional way, but I don't think so and am very happy as is.
> 
> I am quite convinced that this is fixable Andy with a firmware update. There is something weird with that sub channel, as not only did this fix the mid bass hole, it also fixed the loud POP on power off.
> 
> 
> So only two more issues to address
> Processor noise (sounds almost like a cyclical very rapid morse code) when MS-8 is powered on but not playing anything.
> Clicking/popping (although MUCH quieter, it is still present).
> 
> And a few more improvements
> Run some 16/4 conductor to the center so I can biamp it (will also require speaker mod/crossover delete.
> Get a professional to RTA for me.
> Permanently install the display in the visor.
> Have display modified with red gel to match BMW interior.


When you used to have the loud popping noise, it seems to me that the MS-8 was was running out of EQ when trying to boost too much making the pop louder. 
_Setting levels is as important as with any other processor._ 

Kelvin


----------



## taibanl

At Kelvin. I really doubt that. It was a power on and power off pop. Seem to be generated by the MS eight. If it was a pop due to EQ it wouldn't have happened when It turned off. 

Besides I didn't have to adjust the gains much to level Match


----------



## Lorin

I spent some time playing with crossover points, etc., today and tried higher crossover points on the 3 inch widebander (went from 330 to as high as 600), concentrating on just the front speakers (no sub, no center). I am starting to think I am hoping for too much running the smaller drivers that low, as when I started raising the crossover point between the midbass and mid, my midbass snap started to come back. Now this did bring the image down a bit (toward the door speakers), but that seemed to be negated somewhat after putting the center back in. Im now considering going with a 12 db slope to ease the transition between the 6.5 door speakers and the 3 inch mids. Any thoughts, and\or ideas?


----------



## taibanl

Andy

I am using lossless audio on my iPhone but I'm losing some SQ through my cars analog wiring.

Would you recommend running the ms-8 signal acquisition/ input setup from the iPhone? I will probably listen to 80% iPhone 
10% radio
10% cd.


----------



## subwoofery

taibanl said:


> At Kelvin. I really doubt that. It was a power on and power off pop. Seem to be generated by the MS eight. If it was a pop due to EQ it wouldn't have happened when It turned off.
> 
> Besides I didn't have to adjust the gains much to level Match


Well, since the pop is still present yet quieter, then you did something prior calibration to reduce the pop... How do you have your sub connected again? - still HU --> MS-8 --> amp --> sub? 

Kelvin


----------



## taibanl

Yes except the new layout has the sub layout in parallel w the midbass amp

Before the really loud pop was from the sub channel. Now i have more of a click from all channels when the ms-8 goes to sleep. I presume it was always present on all channels jst overdhadowed by te sub


----------



## subwoofery

taibanl said:


> Yes except the new layout has the sub layout in parallel w the midbass amp
> 
> Before the really loud pop was from the sub channel. Now i have more of a click from all channels when the ms-8 goes to sleep. I presume it was always present on all channels jst overdhadowed by te sub


Interesting... I guess some electronics work with some and not with others.

Kelvin


----------



## taibanl

Kaigoss seems to think its specific to use of high level inputs


----------



## akelu

akelu said:


> Okay, finally finished my build and tune and im having a single issue.
> 
> Basically, all sounds PERFECT, except for the driver side midbass, it seems to be distorting at 70-90hz when getting kind of close to quite loud, but not rediculously loud.
> 
> Setup:
> 2 way front
> Sub
> 
> Crossovers: 20hz/6 - 80hz/24 - 3000hz
> 
> Running it using the 3-way method and assigning sub as low.
> 
> Midbass: 6.9" in fully sealed fully deadened door (near pedals)
> Tweeter: Morel Supremo dome tweeter mounted in low a-pillar
> Sub: Morel ultimo SC 12" running at about .65 QTS
> 
> 
> I have more then enough power for all of these on tap.
> If i turn off the processing and do signal sweeps i dont get distortion (even generating an 80hz tone and going MUCH louder then what the ms-8 is distorting it at), but as soon as i turn processing on, distortion at around 70-80hz (using an iphone app tone generator).
> 
> Any ideas? Have been running the sweeps at about -35 (talking level), with the sub gain quite high because as andy said "there isnt much resolution down there when running subwoofer as low (as opposed to running it as subwoofer) (alternative to kaigoss method).
> 
> I've tried a few calibrations using varying gains and it doesnt really seem to help.
> 
> Thanks




Further to this, i am still having this issue.

To make things simpler, i am now just trying to configure it in a 2-way with the tweeter and the mid, without the sub in the equation, and im having the EXACT same issue.


I've tried using different -volume adjustments on the ms-8 for tuning from -40 to -23 (with the correct gains on the amps to make them around voice level) with the same effect happening.

I don't think its the MS-8 running out of headroom, as when it happens i can simply adjust the gain on the midbass to make it come/go.

After the tune, if i swap the L/R RCA's on the midbass amp, the distorting switches sides, so its definitely the MS-8 gaining too much around 80hz for that channel.

Also, as ive said, if i disable processing i can gain 80hz/100hz to +8 on the graphical equalizer and it goes OOOOMF before it even gets close to distorting at loud levels, whereas with processing on, i couldnt put any gain in that area, on slightly below loud volume.

Also, have tried 2 different MS-8 microphones, exactly the same outcome.

I had it working great with the speakers with my old MS-8 before it broke, the only difference now is ive fully sealed the backwave/frontwave in the doors and obviously replaced the MS-8.

I don't see how sealing the doors could cause this issue though, because i mean when i turn off processing man this thing goes loud, obviously the sealed doors doing its job, im just so confused and quite frustrated, ive done about 50 tunes and the best ive got was "close" but still no-dice...

I've also tried with/without the door trims on, to make sure that the cone wasnt hitting it.

Contemplating giving up on this ms-8 journey after a faulty one and now this, but i feel like im so close, so so close. 

Any ideas? It worked pretty well on my last MS-8 with these speakers and that was without the doors deadened! 

-UPDATE-
I tried calibrating in the passenger seat, and i get the same thing - but from the passenger side midbass.

So i thought id be cheeky and try calibrate with my head directly in the middle of the driver/passenger seat, and it calibrated perfectly with no distortion from either side.. however i cannot drive in the middle of the car... But i hope that helps troubleshooting


----------



## 14642

taibanl said:


> Andy
> 
> I am using lossless audio on my iPhone but I'm losing some SQ through my cars analog wiring.
> 
> Would you recommend running the ms-8 signal acquisition/ input setup from the iPhone? I will probably listen to 80% iPhone
> 10% radio
> 10% cd.


Run your iPod through MS-8's AUX input. If your head unit controls the iPod, then cut open the iPod connector and run the AUDIO wires into the MS-8 and leave the rest alone. Then, you'll hvaepristine audio from the portable and still be able to control it with the head unit.


----------



## 14642

taibanl said:


> Kaigoss seems to think its specific to use of high level inputs


OK, speaker level outputs swing voltage above and below 6V (you'll read 6V to chassis on BOTH speaker leads, (+ and -). This applies to almost ALL factory amps, all factory head units, all speaker level outputs from all aftermarket head units. 

When the radio turns off, the 6V on he + and the 6V on the - don't fall at precisely the same rate. The difference in that rate is AC and it's very low frequency. When the ouput of the radio is connected to a speaker, the few millivolts of difference isn't enough to make a loud pop or even a click in the speaker. If that few millivolts is amplified by 20 or 30dB, then it is enough to make a pop--sometimes a loud one. This is so prevasive in OE systems that it's the reason we didn't include audio sensing turn on. In about 80 percent of the use cases we tested, this created really terrible turn off noise. Since then, we've found a way around that for newer products. 

If your calibration requires huge amounts of low frequency EQ, this will make the problem worse. Since, when you've used Kaigoss's method, the EQ of the bass has changed substantially, this has likely reduced the pop. 

His "mod" or"method" is a valid way to connect the sub amp, but I've put MS-8s in plenty of BMWs and have NEVER had the bass problem or had to do it this way. I can say, however, that if you use the under-seat woofers as midbass and a sub in the trunk, the difference between processing on and processing off is HUGE. There is far less midbass with the processing on and way too much between 60 and 400Hz with it off. 

As I've written before, MS-8 uses output between 50 and 80 Hz to level match the sub channel. It could be that in the BMW with the under seat woofers and the sub in the back, the subwoofer output in those frequencies is attenuated by the back seat and the metal plate behind it. That would cause MS-8 to increase the level of the sub and decrease the output of the midbass to match it. Then, the EQ would probably boost the low end of the sub output. If you do Kaigoss, there's no EQ applied below 50Hz, and this is probably the difference. 

The Kaigoss deal does prove one thing pretty well--time alignment between the sub and the rest of the system is unnecessary. 

IN the 3-series that Gary built that he used to use in IASCA competition, the sub fired into the cab through a big hole. This probably prevented this from happening in that car. In other BMWs, I've used MS-8 power and a basslink. This required some screwing around with the subwoofer's gain control to get a good tune, but it sounds great.

I would find one small bit of troubleshooting helpful. If any of you who have used the "mod" could please listen to the same piece of music through the head unit and then with an iPod (or other portable) playing through MS-8's aux in and tell me if the bass sounds the same or different, that would be really helpful. Through a bunch of reading, I've discovered that the sub channels of some of the BMW systems are far more power than the mid and high frequencies. This could be part of the problem and the little experiment I've asked for will help me determine if the input EQ is a contributor. 

Thanks!


----------



## kaigoss69

^^^ thanks for that explanation Andy. I would have already done your little experiment, if I was not sitting on the beach 2000 miles away from my car!


----------



## steveg0906

hi all


----------



## steveg0906

Hi All I need a little help with my setup
I have a stock head unit with a jl 900/5 amp and 4 speakers in
the doors. 2 speakers are 5-1/4 mid and 1 inch tweeter mounted 
in a plate with a passive crossover one in each door mounted high
And zr 8 inch midbass mounted low in each door. I alo have a stealthbox
13w3 in the trunk. Can anybody help wth the settup and crossover points
not sure how to setup midbass or whether to go 1 way or 2 way
Any help would be great


----------



## taibanl

Andy-

1). My iphone dock is an oem accesorry that taps into multiple parts of the vehicle radio harness. I suppose i could use wire taps as i have the wiring diagram but was there anything wrong with my idea in theory?

I may think of doing both

2). I am only using front outputs to provide a signal for ms-8 as i only have base stereo system so no dedicated woofer feed. Otherwise would be happy to try your fix


----------



## taibanl

Andy

As to your explanatory post. I could go back to the old method and try and run the sun at 0dB/.5v as it is now to try and get a better level match. Perhaps that would be a differend method of troubleshooting


I do have split seats though so i dont have the solid metal plate


----------



## 14642

steveg0906 said:


> Hi All I need a little help with my setup
> I have a stock head unit with a jl 900/5 amp and 4 speakers in
> the doors. 2 speakers are 5-1/4 mid and 1 inch tweeter mounted
> in a plate with a passive crossover one in each door mounted high
> And zr 8 inch midbass mounted low in each door. I alo have a stealthbox
> 13w3 in the trunk. Can anybody help wth the settup and crossover points
> not sure how to setup midbass or whether to go 1 way or 2 way
> Any help would be great


 
Please check your PM. I sent a detailed set of instructions.


----------



## i_theo

I'm still confused about this .. please help me understand. 

I use RCA Line Out from my Head Unit ... Since MS-8 Generate it's own Sweep Tone during Setup / Calibration so it seems none of Head Unit portion is used.. I think MS-8 make the car room response and save correction after Frequency Measurement and don't care about whatever HU or Aux In that i use.

I never change my old Head Unit after using MS-8. So .. is there significant different to change to a better HU or not ? as long as not a bad HU and nothing change with speaker, power amplifier, etc.

I read Andy talks about testing plenty of head unit during MS-8 Development. But i still not 100% understand about this .. Thanks.


----------



## Beato

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, no damage wil be done by hooking up the rears. In some cars, the rears are delayed, polarity is changed, frequency response is different than the front...none of that is a big deal, it's just more BS for MS-8 to sort out. Since MS-8 only needs enough to make a 2-channel signal, none of the rear channels are necessary. This won't affect the acoustic calibration, but may affect the input calibration.


Thanks, all is good. I'm *really* enjoying the MS8 thus far. The setup / calibration has gone really well. 

It sounds better/different now than it did previously ("wired incorrectly") - almost like there was some canceling going. Who knows. Imaging seems really centered. Still needs EQ'ing, fine tuning et al..

I calibrated at -40 with the remote bass adj turned way down which seemed to provide more "headroom". Test tones were still audible. 

One thing I noticed is during the Output diagnostics noise test, when I played the rears, the sound level was noticeably quieter? Dunno if that matters or is an indication of something? I'm sure part of that is the result of being in the front seat vs sitting in the back. Just making mention of it

One thing I'm curious about is that my HU rolls off certain freq the louder the volume goes -as I'm sure most OEM HU do - does some of that still get through the MS8's output?

Happy Holidays.


----------



## kaigoss69

steveg0906 said:


> Hi All I need a little help with my setup
> I have a stock head unit with a jl 900/5 amp and 4 speakers in
> the doors. 2 speakers are 5-1/4 mid and 1 inch tweeter mounted
> in a plate with a passive crossover one in each door mounted high
> And zr 8 inch midbass mounted low in each door. I alo have a stealthbox
> 13w3 in the trunk. Can anybody help wth the settup and crossover points
> not sure how to setup midbass or whether to go 1 way or 2 way
> Any help would be great


Go with a 2-way front. Highpass the 8s between 100 and 200hz depending on how low the 5s can play.


----------



## TokoSpeaker

Thank you to Mr. Andy Wehmeyer.

This guy is very humble and has a good character.
He is willing to share his experience & knowledge to everyone who needs his help.
He is a good person.

He just came to Indonesia a few weeks ago.

I just sent a PM, please check your inbox.

Once again, thank you Mr. Andy.
Come to Indonesia again.

God Bless You.

Best Regards,

TokoSpeaker.com
Indonesia




Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Please check your PM. I sent a detailed set of instructions.


----------



## steveg0906

Thank you everbody for the help. 
I really did read most off that ms-8 post thread and the manual a few times.
And i was still a little confused. So Again
Thanks


----------



## t3sn4f2

i_theo said:


> I'm still confused about this .. please help me understand.
> 
> I use RCA Line Out from my Head Unit ... Since MS-8 Generate it's own Sweep Tone during Setup / Calibration so it seems none of Head Unit portion is used.. I think MS-8 make the car room response and save correction after Frequency Measurement and don't care about whatever HU or Aux In that i use.
> 
> *I never change my old Head Unit after using MS-8. So .. is there significant different to change to a better HU or not ? as long as not a bad HU* and nothing change with speaker, power amplifier, etc.
> 
> I read Andy talks about testing plenty of head unit during MS-8 Development. But i still not 100% understand about this .. Thanks.


No one can answer that really. Best thing to do is get a high quality portable player like a full sized iDevice, and compare quality through the AUX input to that of your head unit. Level match the two sources properly and if you can't tell them apart, blindly, over many attempts, then no head unit out there is going to change anything.


----------



## rage-wrx

Everything was working fine after a couple of hiccups.I was blown away by the quality of the product.

I initially did have some problems with the MS-8 screen & I kept getting 'Please wait" which I was able to fix after wiggling the input jack for the screen on the MS-8.

Now the screen has gone dead.I tried everything.I tried resetting the screen, & the MS-8 ,but the screen won't work.I tried using a different cable.That didn't work either.The input jack on the MS-8 seems to be loose.

I have just requested to have it returned to my dealer for repair.

Anybody else experience this?


----------



## akelu

Okay, i've simplified the issue i posted about a few pages back and would appreciate if andy or anyone would chime in here. *$25US via paypal to anyone who solves this issue.*

*Setup:*
Midbass: 6.9" in fully sealed fully deadened door (near pedals)
Tweeter: Tweeter mounted in low a-pillar
Configuring as 2-way front.
80/24 lowpass, 2500/24 highpass
Both speakers are well within their capable range of playing. 
More then enough power on tap.




*Issue:*
I am constantly getting distortion on the low-end. around 70-90hz, i basically cant bring the music to what i would call loud levels after a tune without the low-end distorting. The cone is basically moving too much and is hitting its mechanical limits. Its definitely boosting too much as i can make the distortion go away with amp gain, so its not that the ms-8 is running out of digital headroom.

I know its around 80hz as i have used tone generators, and i can make the distortion go away by cutting that range on the 31-EQ.

If i turn off the processing, it gets REALLY loud without distorting, quite proud of the sealing/deadening job ive done on the doors.

It used to work fine on my last ms-8 that went faulty. The only thing ive changed since then is ive had it all profesionally installed in the boot and ive sealed the doors back/front wave.

I'm so confused by this, ive done about 40-50 calibrations using different gain levels, different ms-8 volumes (-20 to -45), and they ALL have the EXACT same issue. I've tried below whisper volume, up to very loud volumes, ive tried having the tweeter loud and having the mid-bass louder even, at different volumes. I feel like ive tried almost every volume combination during the calibration.

Also, if i switch seats and calibrate, it distorts on whichever side is closest to me, but doesnt seem to distort the other side.
Also - i have tried two different ms-8 microphones, same issue.

ANY ideas?  Will give $25US via paypal to anyone who suggests something that fixes my issue. Thanks!


----------



## subwoofery

During calibration, how loud is the pink noise on the midrange compared to the tweeter? 
Do you have a subwoofer? LP @? 
Are you sure you have assigned your drivers correctly during the MS-8 settings? 

Try to bring down the gain on your tweeter and try to HP @ 100Hz on your mids. 

Kelvin


----------



## akelu

subwoofery said:


> During calibration, how loud is the pink noise on the midrange compared to the tweeter?
> *As i said in my post, i have tried varying levels. I have tried tweeter louder, midbass louder, and them both the same; all at varying ms-8 tune levels.*
> Do you have a subwoofer? LP @?
> *I do, but during my initial tunes i had this same issue, so to keep things simple im trying to just get it all to work with just the front 2-way first.*
> Are you sure you have assigned your drivers correctly during the MS-8 settings?
> *Yes, definitely.*
> 
> Try to bring down the gain on your tweeter and try to HP @ 100Hz on your mids.
> *I've already tried bringing down the gain on the tweeter (as ive said above), and i dont see how bringing the HP up on the mids is a viable "fix" longterm, unless you were hinting at something else im failing to see *
> 
> Kelvin


Thanks for the reply!


----------



## subwoofery

akelu said:


> Thanks for the reply!


Most cars have cabin gain suck out - some at 60Hz, some at 71Hz, some at 80Hz. 
Maybe the MS-8 is trying to boost things to much in order to fill that dip. Worth a try IMO. 
^ due to that, I suggest you calibrate with your subwoofer and try different Xover point from the highest (125Hz) first and down after. 

Also, how's your imaging with processing off? Centered? Where are your mids located? 

Kelvin


----------



## akelu

subwoofery said:


> Most cars have cabin gain suck out - some at 60Hz, some at 71Hz, some at 80Hz.
> Maybe the MS-8 is trying to boost things to much in order to fill that dip. Worth a try IMO.
> ^ due to that, I suggest you calibrate with your subwoofer and try different Xover point from the highest (125Hz) first and down after.
> 
> *Alright, I'll give it a go on the weekend, I can't see that being a long term solution though. Crossing over so high is going to reduce my up-front slamming bass which i need with the music i listen to.. These mids can play down to around 70hz/24 happily at the volumes i like without processing, so 80hz shouldnt be an issue.. I don't get it still though, i used to have these working great on my old ms-8 when the front/rear wave wasnt even seperated! So i dont think this cabin gain suck out is the cause.*
> 
> Also, how's your imaging with processing off? Centered? Where are your mids located?
> *As i said in the post, mids are located near the pedals, Shouldnt really make a difference on the low-end frequencies though.. Imaging is great with processing ON, but with processing OFF obviously its not that great, very side-biased and out of phase as you would expect with zero time alignment.*
> 
> Kelvin


Thanks!


----------



## quietfly

akelu said:


> Okay, i've simplified the issue i posted about a few pages back and would appreciate if andy or anyone would chime in here. *$25US via paypal to anyone who solves this issue.*
> 
> *Setup:*
> Midbass: 6.9" in fully sealed fully deadened door (near pedals)
> Tweeter: Tweeter mounted in low a-pillar
> Configuring as 2-way front.
> 80/24 lowpass, 2500/24 highpass
> Both speakers are well within their capable range of playing.
> More then enough power on tap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Issue:*
> I am constantly getting distortion on the low-end. around 70-90hz, i basically cant bring the music to what i would call loud levels after a tune without the low-end distorting. The cone is basically moving too much and is hitting its mechanical limits. Its definitely boosting too much as i can make the distortion go away with amp gain, so its not that the ms-8 is running out of digital headroom.
> 
> I know its around 80hz as i have used tone generators, and i can make the distortion go away by cutting that range on the 31-EQ.
> 
> If i turn off the processing, it gets REALLY loud without distorting, quite proud of the sealing/deadening job ive done on the doors.
> 
> It used to work fine on my last ms-8 that went faulty. The only thing ive changed since then is ive had it all profesionally installed in the boot and ive sealed the doors back/front wave.
> 
> I'm so confused by this, ive done about 40-50 calibrations using different gain levels, different ms-8 volumes (-20 to -45), and they ALL have the EXACT same issue. I've tried below whisper volume, up to very loud volumes, ive tried having the tweeter loud and having the mid-bass louder even, at different volumes. I feel like ive tried almost every volume combination during the calibration.
> 
> Also, if i switch seats and calibrate, it distorts on whichever side is closest to me, but doesnt seem to distort the other side.
> Also - i have tried two different ms-8 microphones, same issue.
> 
> ANY ideas?  Will give $25US via paypal to anyone who suggests something that fixes my issue. Thanks!


Its possible when you did such a good job of sealing the doors you changed the properties of the cabin just enough (sound is about pressure) that when the MS-8 tunes it, its over boosting those mid bass areas. try drawing your curve with a dip starting at 63 returning to flat at 125. I've seen this happen alot when people deaden doors, (however never with an MS-8)


----------



## 14642

I think the issue is two problems combining to make one big problem. 

1. The fact that the distortion happens on the side closest to the seat you're optimizing for suggests that one problem is the off-axis response of the 6x9 doesn't reach the tweeter. MS-8 will boost in that area in an effort to make up for that. 

2. The 6x9s have a big peak at 150-800 Hz. This will cause MS-8 to reduce the level of that channel. Then, when MS-8 equalizes that channel, it has to fill in the holes and it tries to do that by boosting at low frequencies and boosting at high frequencies. The distortion you hear is either MS-8 running out of digital headroom because of the boost or the amp running out of power, also because of the boost. 

When you turn off processing, that massive peak between 150 and 800 comes back.

To confirm this, try the following two things--

1. Sit somewhere else in the car. Sit on top of the center console so the pathlengths and the angles are the same and recalibrate. Or, go somewhere quiet and calibrate with both doors open. See if the difference between the two sides goes away.

2. Raise the crossover on the sub/front. Also, connect the sub to two channels of the MS-8 and configure the whole system as "Front 3-way". Then, you'll have a wider range of crossover points from which to choose.


----------



## blownrunner

sniper5431 said:


> I am having some issues with my MS-8. Once I turned down the sweeps to like -35 everything sounds very nice. The issue i am having is that it seems to reboot once in awhile. Listne to two or three songs and it cycles power. Yes, the power connections are fine. The music actually stops playing then resumes after it appears to reboot. Another issue I see is the HMI to the the main unit seems to lose the ability to change things such as sound volume once in awhile. I can control volume for a few songs. Then all of a sudden it will not control volume. Yet the volume levels on the HMI show volume levels changes. Actual volume levels do not change. If I cycle remote power to the MS-8 base unit. All parameters work properly. Should I send this in for repair? The unit is mounted in the trunk where the subs live. Could this be an issue? Heat or cold is not an issue due to I live in Socal. Well, you know what that is like. The head unit to the MS-8 is an Alpine 7909. I would like to get this resolved quickly if possible. Other than this the unit sounds very nice and is quite easy to use.


I thought I would chime in here as I have been fighting this type problem for about a year now and I finally figured out it was the cable that goes from the display to the main unit. I was really pulling my hair out thinking the remote output from the H/U was intermittent, the line driver was faulty, the new amps I installed were effecting it, there were power issues, etc. I too was have constant reboot issues and screen lock-ups. It would occur so frequently that I couldn't complete the setup procedure before it would have problems, causing me to start the process over. The reason why it was so difficult to troubleshoot was that while the problem was because of a defective cable, the symptoms I was having were sporadic, unpredictable, and changing. When installing an MS-8, you really need to exercise extreme care with the display cable as apparently it can be damaged easily in a way that it will work most of the time, but have short periods of problems other times. I even went as far as JBL customer service and swapping the unit out. When I did, I sent in everything but the display cable as it was buried in my install, so JBL did not send a replacement with the new MS-8 system, further hindering my troubleshooting success. Another thing installers need to be aware of is to be sure to have a full range signal sent to the MS-8, or you will not be able to do the first part of the setup procedure. The display will read 'no input' when the H/U volume is increased.
In conclusion, the MS-8 is an awesome unit and I would buy again, but it is very finicky and sensitive to improper connections or settings. You will experience problems if the install is not 100%.


----------



## akelu

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I think the issue is two problems combining to make one big problem.
> 
> 1. The fact that the distortion happens on the side closest to the seat you're optimizing for suggests that one problem is the off-axis response of the 6x9 doesn't reach the tweeter. MS-8 will boost in that area in an effort to make up for that.
> 
> 2. The 6x9s have a big peak at 150-800 Hz. This will cause MS-8 to reduce the level of that channel. Then, when MS-8 equalizes that channel, it has to fill in the holes and it tries to do that by boosting at low frequencies and boosting at high frequencies. The distortion you hear is either MS-8 running out of digital headroom because of the boost or the amp running out of power, also because of the boost.
> 
> When you turn off processing, that massive peak between 150 and 800 comes back.
> 
> To confirm this, try the following two things--
> 
> 1. Sit somewhere else in the car. Sit on top of the center console so the pathlengths and the angles are the same and recalibrate. Or, go somewhere quiet and calibrate with both doors open. See if the difference between the two sides goes away.
> 
> 2. Raise the crossover on the sub/front. Also, connect the sub to two channels of the MS-8 and configure the whole system as "Front 3-way". Then, you'll have a wider range of crossover points from which to choose.


Hi Andy, thanks for the reply.

Firstly, my mids are not 6x9's, but rather 6.5" speakers that are actually 6.9" across.

Secondly, If i sit in the middle, the issue goes away.

Also, i'm just trying to resolve this without a subwoofer at this point, to keep things simple.. 

I'm fairly certain my mids are decent until up to at least 2500hz this off axis, and i know they are capable of playing down to 70hz at my listening level without distorting.. (Plus, they sell with a 3500hz crossover point in the low-end kit, or with a 2500hz crossover with the high-end kit.

I know the tweeters are capable of playing down low they play at 2300hz if you buy them with their passive crossover..

I don't really want to increase the high pass further, i feel im losing dynamics at that level if i do that, i listen to alot of electronic music with alot of detail in that area.


Any suggestions as to what to try next?


----------



## jbradle7

*Audi A4 B8 Crossover Settings*

I recently installed my MS-8 and now I'm trying to dial it in. Looking for a little guidance please.

Currently running:
-Audi Concert HU w/ factory amp sending L/R and sub hi-lvl to the MS-8
-Front Hi: Vifa XT25SC90-04 1" Dual Ring Radiator Tweeter
-Front Low: Audi OEM 6.5 mid
-Center:Vifa NE65W-04 2" Full Range Woofer
-Side/Rear (one-way): Audi OEM 6.5 mid and 3/4" tweeters
-Sub: Massive Audio V10 DVC 4ohm
-MS-8 powering the front and rear speakers
-Massive Audio N2 powering the sub

I ran the initial calibration using the recommended crossover values and adjusted slightly for the second go.
Currently set at:
-F-high 3500hz
-F-low 80hz
-Center 100hz (next cal this is going up to 350hz min)
-Side/Rear 100hz
-Sub 80hz

I'm very happy w/ the imaging so far but the top end seems to missing something... highs don't seem to be very crisp or as loud as I'd like. I've done a little tweaking on the EQ settings but still not where I think it could/should be. Part of the problem could be the off-axis position of the tweeters in the dash, but I'm going to work with that location for now and see if I can live with it.

My main question is regarding the Audi Concert's OE crossover network. I'm assuming the factory amp was acting as the active high pass for the mid/high components which shared an output signal from the amp. Also assuming each speaker had a passive crossover (capacitor)... I know the OE tweeters had caps on them but I have not had the doors apart to see what is attached to the mids. Does anyone know or care to make an educated guess as to what low-pass filter Audi likely applied to the mids? I want to make sure as I adjust my MS-8 crossover settings I don't loose any frequencies due to that Audi capacitor. I'm probably over-thinking the issue but thought it worth asking.

I welcome any other advise or recommendations... I'm a noob at this so I appreciate you guys sharing your wealth of knowledge.

Thanks in advance!
J


----------



## subwoofery

akelu said:


> Hi Andy, thanks for the reply.
> 
> Firstly, my mids are not 6x9's, but rather 6.5" speakers that are actually 6.9" across.
> 
> Secondly, If i sit in the middle, the issue goes away.
> 
> Also, i'm just trying to resolve this without a subwoofer at this point, to keep things simple...
> In my post, I've suggested that you calibrate WITH a subwoofer coz that might actually solve your problem...
> 
> I'm fairly certain my mids are decent until up to at least 2500hz this off axis, and i know they are capable of playing down to 70hz at my listening level without distorting.. (Plus, they sell with a 3500hz crossover point in the low-end kit, or with a 2500hz crossover with the high-end kit.
> 
> I know the tweeters are capable of playing down low they play at 2300hz if you buy them with their passive crossover..
> 
> I don't really want to increase the high pass further, i feel im losing dynamics at that level if i do that, i listen to alot of electronic music with alot of detail in that area.
> 
> 
> *Any suggestions as to what to try next?*


I'd listen to Andy before discarding any of his recommendations. 

You'll feel like an idiot trying everything else (from other posters) and only to come back to his current suggestion and BAM!!!!! everything works together... 

Not saying what he suggests WILL work, but he knows a thing or 2 about car acoustics and knows 100% how the MS-8 calibrates and how it threats the information it receives. 
Try, then come back here saying what works and what doesn't... then he'll make another suggestion. 

Also want to point out that having an FS of 70Hz doesn't mean you can HP your driver @ 70Hz 24dB/oct slope. The MS-8 does a good job with an 80Hz Xover point - heck even a 100Hz Xover point works well. Play with your Xover points, go up and go down and see if that solves your problem. 

Kelvin


----------



## akelu

subwoofery said:


> I'd listen to Andy before discarding any of his recommendations.
> 
> You'll feel like an idiot trying everything else (from other posters) and only to come back to his current suggestion and BAM!!!!! everything works together...
> 
> Not saying what he suggests WILL work, but he knows a thing or 2 about car acoustics and knows 100% how the MS-8 calibrates and how it threats the information it receives.
> Try, then come back here saying what works and what doesn't... then he'll make another suggestion.
> 
> Also want to point out that having an FS of 70Hz doesn't mean you can HP your driver @ 70Hz 24dB/oct slope. The MS-8 does a good job with an 80Hz Xover point - heck even a 100Hz Xover point works well. Play with your Xover points, go up and go down and see if that solves your problem.
> 
> Kelvin


Hey thanks again for the reply, it's much appreciated..

Initial calibrations (About 5 or so) were done using subwoofer and i had this same exact issue, but i will try bring the subwoofer back into the equation and try a bunch of things again tommorow for sure!

I realise a FS of 70hz doesnt mean i can hp at 70/24, thats not the issue here. The manufacturer has listed reccomended input voltage for 63 highpass, and 80 highpass, so i've got a rough idea of what they are capable of, and without processing on, it certainly gets there.

I know that hp'ing at 100 will most likely fix this issue, but i feel thats a bandaid solution. *The driver is capable of playing 70hz/24 up at volumes i like without distortion.* The kind of music i like really needs the dynamics in that range from the front rather then from the subwoofer, so i'd like to try and figure out a way rather then bringing the HP up. Theres other reasons too, i listen to electronic music and that brings in an assortment of issues. But don't take that as a sign that my idea of "loud" is ear piercing.. I love listening to more chilled electronic music such as songs that are well produced/mastered and with intricate imaging queues.. *happy sigh*

At the moment, it does look like the "two smaller problems forming one big problem" is my issue, and what andy said makes sense. 

I'll just have to try incorporate the sub again and also ill try some shallower slopes on each end to try and correct this issue.

I've got a few ideas to toy with now so hopefully i can get it working tommorow!

Thanks for the input guys, i'll keep you updated.


----------



## 14642

akelu said:


> Hi Andy, thanks for the reply.
> 
> Firstly, my mids are not 6x9's, but rather 6.5" speakers that are actually 6.9" across.
> 
> Secondly, If i sit in the middle, the issue goes away.
> 
> Also, i'm just trying to resolve this without a subwoofer at this point, to keep things simple..
> 
> I'm fairly certain my mids are decent until up to at least 2500hz this off axis, and i know they are capable of playing down to 70hz at my listening level without distorting.. (Plus, they sell with a 3500hz crossover point in the low-end kit, or with a 2500hz crossover with the high-end kit.
> 
> I know the tweeters are capable of playing down low they play at 2300hz if you buy them with their passive crossover..
> 
> I don't really want to increase the high pass further, i feel im losing dynamics at that level if i do that, i listen to alot of electronic music with alot of detail in that area.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions as to what to try next?


I don't mean to be a jerk about this, but I provided my hypotheses and you've confirmed that at least one of them is correct (sitting in the middle fixes the problem). This means that your mid DOESN'T reach the tweeter at something like 70 degrees off axis and that's no surprise. The fact that the manufacturer provides a crossover at 2.5k doesn't matter. 6" (or 7" in your case) are ALWAYS problems in a 2-way, especially far off axis. 

Raising your crossover and using the sub will probably fix the rest, but you don't want to do that either. 

I'm out of good suggestions and I don't think it's beneficial to come up with incorrect alternatives to continue the goose chase.


----------



## Salami

*Andy W.*

Andy I am really hoping you can help me with my big problem with the MS-8. I am hoping you can help me with a work around of some type. My system sounds like **** now.




















It all started when I traded my MS-8 for a Denford. Now I have no EQ or time correction or anything to get my system sounding as great as when I had my MS-8. Since then I have not been able to sell any of my gear to fund the purchase of another MS-8. Is there some way you can come up with a work around? I can't stand listening to it any more, it makes me sad.


----------



## 14642

*Re: Andy W.*



Salami said:


> Andy I am really hoping you can help me with my big problem with the MS-8. I am hoping you can help me with a work around of some type. My system sounds like **** now.
> 
> It all started when I traded my MS-8 for a Denford. Now I have no EQ or time correction or anything to get my system sounding as great as when I had my MS-8. Since then I have not been able to sell any of my gear to fund the purchase of another MS-8. Is there some way you can come up with a work around? I can't stand listening to it any more, it makes me sad.


 

Hmmm...mow some lawns? Sent a letter to Santa?


----------



## 14642

Crossing your midbass over at 100Hz isn't a bandaid. Where did this preposterous idea come from--that every speaker has to be driven to the lowest point possible? If 70Hz is the Fs of the driver, good audio systems engineering practice suggests that's a point where the driver SHOUDLN'T be driven, as it's the point at which it makes the most distortion. That's what Fs is! The point at which the motion of the moving assembly continues to move even after the signal goes away. 

Ideally, you want your speakers to move as LITTLE as they have to, not as much as they can.


----------



## pionkej

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Crossing your midbass over at 100Hz isn't a bandaid. Where did this preposterous idea come from--that every speaker has to be driven to the lowest point possible? If 70Hz is the Fs of the driver, good audio systems engineering practice suggests that's a point where the driver SHOUDLN'T be driven, as it's the point at which it makes the most distortion. That's what Fs is! The point at which the motion of the moving assembly continues to move even after the signal goes away.
> 
> Ideally, you want your speakers to move as LITTLE as they have to, not as much as they can.


Great post Andy. You could blow really their minds further and say that Fc is really what you should look out for (the resonance of the system--speaker+enclosure). Make a $100 investment to buy a WT3 and you can see how the speaker models in it's "enclosure" in the car.


----------



## 14642

pionkej said:


> Great post Andy. You could blow really their minds further and say that Fc is really what you should look out for (the resonance of the system--speaker+enclosure). Make a $100 investment to buy a WT3 and you can see how the speaker models in it's "enclosure" in the car.


Yeah, if the door was a small enough enclosure to make Fc much higher than Fs, that might be helpful. I doubt that Fc is substantially different than Fs in this case.


----------



## quietfly

*Re: Andy W.*



Salami said:


> Andy I am really hoping you can help me with my big problem with the MS-8. I am hoping you can help me with a work around of some type. My system sounds like **** now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It all started when I traded my MS-8 for a Denford. Now I have no EQ or time correction or anything to get my system sounding as great as when I had my MS-8. Since then I have not been able to sell any of my gear to fund the purchase of another MS-8. Is there some way you can come up with a work around? I can't stand listening to it any more, it makes me sad.


I have a possible solution... it involves duct tape, a ski mask, a paint ball gun, and several startled Canadian geese. i can PM you the rest of the details if you want to proceed.....


----------



## BuickGN

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Crossing your midbass over at 100Hz isn't a bandaid. Where did this preposterous idea come from--that every speaker has to be driven to the lowest point possible? If 70Hz is the Fs of the driver, good audio systems engineering practice suggests that's a point where the driver SHOUDLN'T be driven, as it's the point at which it makes the most distortion. That's what Fs is! The point at which the motion of the moving assembly continues to move even after the signal goes away.
> 
> Ideally, you want your speakers to move as LITTLE as they have to, not as much as they can.


This is exactly what has given me the best results. Mine may be a little extreme but they work well. 20/90/1,600/8khz. No visible excursion from any driver under normal and moderately loud listening. 

I've tried running each driver on the low end, 20/50/200/3khz and didn't like it.


----------



## pionkej

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yeah, if the door was a small enough enclosure to make Fc much higher than Fs, that might be helpful. I doubt that Fc is substantially different than Fs in this case.


I agree. My point was more to car-audio in general and not the one problem you were helping with. It makes the biggest difference in kicks and pillar mounted mids in my opinion.


----------



## 14642

pionkej said:


> I agree. My point was more to car-audio in general and not the one problem you were helping with. It makes the biggest difference in kicks and pillar mounted mids in my opinion.


Exactly. Both cases in which a driver, often designed for IB, is shoe-horned into a tiny box in a location designed to improve imaging (not always with the best results) without any thought given to the effects of such a configuration on frequency response. Every time i see a giant 6" midrange mounted this way (and yes, i have seen 660GTi mids mounted in the a-pillar), I pause and wait for the complaint about a lack of midbass.


----------



## pionkej

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Exactly. Both cases in which a driver, often designed for IB, is shoe-horned into a tiny box in a location designed to improve imaging (not always with the best results) without any thought given to the effects of such a configuration on frequency response. Every time i see a giant 6" midrange mounted this way (and yes, i have seen 660GTi mids mounted in the a-pillar), I pause and wait for the complaint about a lack of midbass.


I'm actually doing everything I can to avoid Fs/Fc spikes in the passband in my current build...from subs up. It's funny, but I'll be using 'your' 660GTi's in the dash and they will be crossed around 80-100hz (Fc is around 60hz). The biggest hurdle I have to fight there is attenuating the backwave enough to prevent issues, but when *isn't* car audio about tradeoffs.


----------



## Salami

*Re: Andy W.*



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hmmm...mow some lawns? Sent a letter to Santa?


Lawns are not growing right now. Sent a letter to Santa but I am on her **** list right now. 






quietfly said:


> I have a possible solution... it involves duct tape, a ski mask, a paint ball gun, and several startled Canadian geese. i can PM you the rest of the details if you want to proceed.....


I was with you until the part about the geese.


Can't wait until I get another MS-8. It is all pionkej's fault any ways.


----------



## quietfly

*Re: Andy W.*



Salami said:


> ......
> I was with you until the part about the geese....


Well with out the Geese i don't know how else to get the Midgets to cooperate.....and besides they do look so cute in those chaps....


----------



## Salami

I forgot all about the midgets. This is plan that involves the vaseline and 50lb bag of flour, correct? I will let you know how it works out.


----------



## pionkej

quietfly said:


> Well with out the Geese i don't know how else to get the Midgets to cooperate.....and besides they do look so cute in those chaps....





Salami said:


> I forgot all about the midgets. This is plan that involves the vaseline and 50lb bag of flour, correct? I will let you know how it works out.


You guys are killing me here. Too funny.

Salami, I'm not sorry I "stole" your MS8 btw.


----------



## quietfly

Salami said:


> I forgot all about the midgets. This is plan that involves the vaseline and 50lb bag of flour, correct? I will let you know how it works out.


UGH NO......

Its a 2 quart can of Criso, and a pound of Stone ground corn meal, I swear you guys would be lost without me......:laugh:


----------



## drpepper

Can someone do me a HUGE favor?

I need the dimensions of the MS-8 box. I need to ship mine and i'm at work and I forgot to take down the dimensions and we make boxes at work so I'm gonna have them make me one to ship it in.

Anyone? Just length width height of the actual MS-8 product box.


----------



## quietfly

drpepper said:


> Can someone do me a HUGE favor?
> 
> I need the dimensions of the MS-8 box. I need to ship mine and i'm at work and I forgot to take down the dimensions and we make boxes at work so I'm gonna have them make me one to ship it in.
> 
> Anyone? Just length width height of the actual MS-8 product box.


http://www.jbl.com/resources/Brands...latedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/MS-8_OM.pdf

Main Unit Dimensions (L x W x H): 11-1/2" x 7-3/8" x 2-1/8"
(293mm x 187mm x 55mm)


----------



## south east customz

quietfly said:


> http://www.jbl.com/resources/Brands...latedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/MS-8_OM.pdf
> 
> Main Unit Dimensions (L x W x H): 11-1/2" x 7-3/8" x 2-1/8"
> (293mm x 187mm x 55mm)


He means thr shipping box, I'll have it 30 min


----------



## drpepper

quietfly said:


> http://www.jbl.com/resources/Brands...latedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/MS-8_OM.pdf
> 
> Main Unit Dimensions (L x W x H): 11-1/2" x 7-3/8" x 2-1/8"
> (293mm x 187mm x 55mm)


lol reading comprehension


----------



## quietfly

south east customz said:


> He means thr shipping box, I'll have it 30 min


oops....mea culpa, mea culpa, mea máxima culpa.


----------



## Salami

It was those damn Smurf's fault. Those brownies they made screwed with his eyes. The blonde one is kind of cute though.


----------



## south east customz

15.5x16.5x5.25
Don't have weight though


----------



## akelu

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Crossing your midbass over at 100Hz isn't a bandaid. Where did this preposterous idea come from--that every speaker has to be driven to the lowest point possible? If 70Hz is the Fs of the driver, good audio systems engineering practice suggests that's a point where the driver SHOUDLN'T be driven, as it's the point at which it makes the most distortion. That's what Fs is! The point at which the motion of the moving assembly continues to move even after the signal goes away.
> 
> Ideally, you want your speakers to move as LITTLE as they have to, not as much as they can.


Not sure why this 70hz fs is popping up again, never said that was the fs.

My reasoning for saying 100hz high pass is a bandaid is the following:
a) Speaker is capable of playing lower
b) The sort of music i listen to has alot of tones where you can maybe only hear a 80hz tone being generated without anything else, thats just gonna come through the sub and draw my soundstage back, ive found through previous experience that the lower i cross over without coming across distortion, the better, as it brings my stage forward with the music i listen to (electronic)

I'll try raising it anyway tommorow and see how it goes with an open mind, maybe ms-8 can blow my mind again who knows, its done it in the past thats for sure.

Just for clarification, heres the specs on my midbass


----------



## thehatedguy

No xmax figures?


----------



## drpepper

south east customz said:


> 15.5x16.5x5.25
> Don't have weight though


awesome dude... thank you!!!!


----------



## Chrisw21

The time has finally come!!!! I've had my equipment for about 5 weeks now, but haven't had time to install. Now I have 9 days off, so the car is coming apart! Mercedes CLK 500, so it will probably take the whole 9 damn days to do it right.... Using the factory HU, adding 2 sets of ID CTX65's driven by an Arc FD4150, single sealed IDQ12 driven by an Arc 600.1 and, of course, the MS-8 to make it all sound magical. I've read thru most of this thread over the past few weeks and I have to say, I can't believe my head hasn't exploded..... I gotta say, I'm confused about some things and not sure how to approach this, but I have test tones and an O-scope, so I'm just gonna go at it and hope for the best! Andy, you are truly a kind and patient man. You obviously have a passion for what you do and love your job! (yes, I may be sucking up a little in case I need help!) Seriously, though, I hope I don't need your help, but if I do it's good to know someone like you is around. Any quick tips for initial set-up are appreciated. Cheers!!!!! And wish me luck!


----------



## Frank Drebin

*Holy jet engine!*

I've been playing around with crossover points, volume of sweeps etc on my recently installed system.

Got the jet engine noise on the MS8 unit today. Fack that could be very very dangerous if that was on the road.

It was just after a cal/volume sweep. Still had the mic plugged in and was just increasing the volume on the MS8 from -30 to -6. Went away when I redid the input setup.

I understand this is possibly a firmware issue?


----------



## 14642

akelu said:


> Not sure why this 70hz fs is popping up again, never said that was the fs.
> 
> My reasoning for saying 100hz high pass is a bandaid is the following:
> a) Speaker is capable of playing lower
> b) The sort of music i listen to has alot of tones where you can maybe only hear a 80hz tone being generated without anything else, thats just gonna come through the sub and draw my soundstage back, ive found through previous experience that the lower i cross over without coming across distortion, the better, as it brings my stage forward with the music i listen to (electronic)
> 
> I'll try raising it anyway tommorow and see how it goes with an open mind, maybe ms-8 can blow my mind again who knows, its done it in the past thats for sure.
> 
> Just for clarification, heres the specs on my midbass


This is a midbass driver, not a midrange. [email protected] of .558mH is high. For example, the [email protected] of a 660GTi is .1mH.


----------



## 14642

*Re: Holy jet engine!*



Frank Drebin said:


> I've been playing around with crossover points, volume of sweeps etc on my recently installed system.
> 
> Got the jet engine noise on the MS8 unit today. Fack that could be very very dangerous if that was on the road.
> 
> It was just after a cal/volume sweep. Still had the mic plugged in and was just increasing the volume on the MS8 from -30 to -6. Went away when I redid the input setup.
> 
> I understand this is possibly a firmware issue?


Yeah, firmware. I finally have a couple of software guys assigned to this. I have no idea how long it will take to find it. Has only been reported during setup, so I'd say there's little chance of this happening when you're driving. If you're calibrating at 70MPH, I'd say the jet engine noise might hasten an unwanted occurrence, but likely wouldn't be the sole cause of a problem...

I can say that MS-8 doesn't like to be sending strings back and forth between microprocessors and the DSP when the battery finally dies. Get a charger or run the car.


----------



## taibanl

My first (and so far only) jet noise was when i opened the door after cal and the "key in ignition" gong started the whole thing


----------



## dlheman

Hello boys and girls,

I just want to share with you a video of my car audio system which was recorded using my Blackberry 9930's High-Definition video recording. 

Nakamichi / JBL MS8 system - YouTube


----------



## 14642

dlheman said:


> Hello boys and girls,
> 
> I just want to share with you a video of my car audio system which was recorded using my Blackberry 9930's High-Definition video recording.
> 
> Nakamichi / JBL MS8 system - YouTube


Hey Daniel,
Go get a binaural mic and record it again so we can all hear it in stereo.


----------



## dlheman

Hi Andy!

OK, I will try find em! I can't wait to let you hear it again Andy, is just INCREDIBLE!


----------



## 14642

daniel,
I was just kidding. No big deal.


----------



## Chrisw21

*Information Overload!!!!!*

So I have the week off and I'm finally installing my system:

MS-8
2 sets - ID CTX65CS (only installing full set up front and rear mids right now, rear tweets may follow soon)
1 - IDQ12V3
1 - Arc FD4150 amp
1 - Arc FD600.1 sub amp

My car has a center channel speaker, but I don't have an amp to drive it. Do I power it with the MS-8 or not use it? Do I use the crossovers in the amps, or set everything to "Full" and let the MS-8 do it's thing? Should I forget about the rear fill and go active with the fronts only (may require different speakers to handle more power??) 7000 posts + mediocre search engine + conflicting info = confusion :dizzy: Thoughts and suggestions welcome....


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: Information Overload!!!!!*



Chrisw21 said:


> So I have the week off and I'm finally installing my system:
> 
> MS-8
> 2 sets - ID CTX65CS (only installing full set up front and rear mids right now, rear tweets may follow soon)
> 1 - IDQ12V3
> 1 - Arc FD4150 amp
> 1 - Arc FD600.1 sub amp
> 
> My car has a center channel speaker, but I don't have an amp to drive it. Do I power it with the MS-8 or not use it? Do I use the crossovers in the amps, or set everything to "Full" and let the MS-8 do it's thing? Should I forget about the rear fill and go active with the fronts only (may require different speakers to handle more power??) 7000 posts + mediocre search engine + conflicting info = confusion :dizzy: Thoughts and suggestions welcome....


What size center? How big a center can you fit in place of the oem one?


----------



## Chrisw21

*Re: Information Overload!!!!!*



t3sn4f2 said:


> What size center? How big a center can you fit in place of the oem one?


I think it's a 3 1/2" now. I may be able to squeeze in a 4". Mercedes CLK 500 for what it's worth.... Keep in mind that the FD4150 will be pushing a (conservative) 80W RMS to each channel. I'm concerned the MS-8 will try to attenuate the components in order to balance out with the mid.


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

Can we haz cliff notes? :uhoh:


----------



## Lorin

I will chime in and say that you should go with the largest center you can fit. I moved \ modified my components under the dash to allow a 6.5 inch center and am exceptionally pleased. Much like the home environment, the center channel can add a little or a lot depending on your choices. DONT skimp on the center, get a good one and go!


----------



## AndyInOC

bigaudiofanatic said:


> Can we haz cliff notes? :uhoh:


A short summary... Read the thread from last page to 1st


----------



## Frank Drebin

*Re: Holy jet engine!*



Frank Drebin said:


> I've been playing around with crossover points, volume of sweeps etc on my recently installed system.
> 
> Got the jet engine noise on the MS8 unit today. Fack that could be very very dangerous if that was on the road.
> 
> It was just after a cal/volume sweep. Still had the mic plugged in and was just increasing the volume on the MS8 from -30 to -6. Went away when I redid the input setup.
> 
> I understand this is possibly a firmware issue?


This blew one of my XR3M's. I know you can use a cap to protect a tweet, is there anything to protect a midrange (3")?


----------



## BuickGN

*Re: Holy jet engine!*



Frank Drebin said:


> This blew one of my XR3M's. I know you can use a cap to protect a tweet, is there anything to protect a midrange (3")?


That sucks.

I would like to know the answer as well. Pissed would not even describe how I would feel if it blew one of my mids. I had this sound once and smelled something burning but everything worked afterward.


----------



## Vitty

Any thoughts on why the MS-8 is clipping my signal at volumes higher than -15 on the MS-8? My head unit can be at very low volume and I still get the clipping. I am rather confused as the last time I used the MS-8 I could go to a much higher volume level. At volume 27 of 35 on my head unit and volume -16 on the MS-8 it is not even close to being loud at all. I can't come up with what I am doing wrong. Calibrating the unit around -25. Amp gains roughly half way up (Zuki Eleets 4).

Alpine w910 (Front R/L RCA) --> MS-8 --> Amps
Fronts: 1 way
Sides: 1 way
Sub: 1, 65 hz crossover, 24db slope


----------



## subwoofery

Vitty said:


> Any thoughts on why the MS-8 is clipping my signal at volumes higher than -15 on the MS-8? My head unit can be at very low volume and I still get the clipping. I am rather confused as the last time I used the MS-8 I could go to a much higher volume level. At volume 27 of 35 on my head unit and volume -16 on the MS-8 it is not even close to being loud at all. I can't come up with what I am doing wrong. Calibrating the unit around -25. Amp gains roughly half way up (Zuki Eleets 4).
> 
> Alpine w910 (Front R/L RCA) --> MS-8 --> Amps
> Fronts: 1 way
> Sides: 1 way
> Sub: 1, 65 hz crossover, 24db slope


The MS-8's headset can't handle the Zukis, maybe?  

Kelvin


----------



## Vitty

I turned the amp gains to minimum then recalibrated. The test tones are very faint now. I no longer get clipping from the MS-8, even at 0, however my music is not getting very loud. If I turn the gains on the amps up I get the clipping back again.


----------



## BuickGN

If you don't get the levels at least somewhat matched it can clip.

I've started calibrating with the amps at least 5/8 of the way up with the exception of the sub amp, MS8 at -60 so my sweeps aren't too loud and you get a clean signal and a lot of headroom and volume. I run the MS8's volume at -15 and control it with my HU.


----------



## NWS Alpine

I got everything installed today and confused as to what I am doing wrong because my system sounds like crap. I read the manual and tried the suggestions here and the sound is awful so I am missing something big.

I have a HD900/5 and set the input sensitivity based on the manual and the test CD. I then tried turning the input all the way down on the sub and recalibrate anywhere from -30 to -60. The sub is extremely loud and overpowering. The mids and highs are flat and muddy. There is little of any highs and weak weak midbass. 

I know I am missing something simple. I can't even turn the MS-8 volume above -15 with the stock HU turned up one click form off. How low should the HU volume be when running calibration because I tried from speaking volume to very faint and get the same results.

EDIT: I'm not sure if I had all the gains down or just the sub gains down. I am going to turn them all down and try again.


----------



## 14642

NWS Alpine said:


> I got everything installed today and confused as to what I am doing wrong because my system sounds like crap. I read the manual and tried the suggestions here and the sound is awful so I am missing something big.
> 
> I have a HD900/5 and set the input sensitivity based on the manual and the test CD. I then tried turning the input all the way down on the sub and recalibrate anywhere from -30 to -60. The sub is extremely loud and overpowering. The mids and highs are flat and muddy. There is little of any highs and weak weak midbass.
> 
> I know I am missing something simple. I can't even turn the MS-8 volume above -15 with the stock HU turned up one click form off. How low should the HU volume be when running calibration because I tried from speaking volume to very faint and get the same results.
> 
> EDIT: I'm not sure if I had all the gains down or just the sub gains down. I am going to turn them all down and try again.


If the JL amp has a Hi/Low switch for the signal inputs, put it on low and turn the gain all the way down. Don't use the CD and the meter to set the amp gains. If the amp has no switch, then set the gains at about the 2V setting--read the amp manual to find out where that is. 

What are you using for crossove points and slope and what is the rest of your system?


----------



## 14642

subwoofery said:


> The MS-8's headset can't handle the Zukis, maybe?
> 
> Kelvin


No, that makes no sense. 

What's the input sensitivity range for the amp? You should set it for 2V, then calibrate, then turn the amps up all by the same amount.


----------



## NWS Alpine

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If the JL amp has a Hi/Low switch for the signal inputs, put it on low and turn the gain all the way down. Don't use the CD and the meter to set the amp gains. If the amp has no switch, then set the gains at about the 2V setting--read the amp manual to find out where that is.
> 
> What are you using for crossove points and slope and what is the rest of your system?


I just tried setting them all as low as possible. I did have the switch set to low too. Still way to much sub. 

Setup:
Center: Stock 3" (have a legatia L3 that needs to be installed but might go Mirus 4" coaxial when available)
Fronts 2 way active: HAT imagine running a pillar and doors 2 way
Sides: Stock rear door coaxials
Sub: JL 10w3v3 stealthbox

Center and sides are running off the MS-8. The tweeters and 6.5" mids are running off the HD900/5. Sub off the 900/5.

I am using all the stock crossover points and slope the manual recommends except 63hz for the sub and center and sides is at 100hz.

I think the center might be killing my high freq lacking in the front but I can't get the sub to a level that lets me hear the front enough. Could this be due to the center channel being crap and running off the MS-8?


----------



## kaigoss69

NWS Alpine said:


> I got everything installed today and confused as to what I am doing wrong because my system sounds like crap. I read the manual and tried the suggestions here and the sound is awful so I am missing something big.
> 
> I have a HD900/5 and set the input sensitivity based on the manual and the test CD. I then tried turning the input all the way down on the sub and recalibrate anywhere from -30 to -60. The sub is extremely loud and overpowering. The mids and highs are flat and muddy. There is little of any highs and weak weak midbass.
> 
> I know I am missing something simple. I can't even turn the MS-8 volume above -15 with the stock HU turned up one click form off. How low should the HU volume be when running calibration because I tried from speaking volume to very faint and get the same results.
> 
> EDIT: I'm not sure if I had all the gains down or just the sub gains down. I am going to turn them all down and try again.


Did you miss the part where Andy says countless times NOT to set gains with a DMM? :blush:

Set all gains to 2V as the starting point. Then run the sweeps and adjust levels to match each other, except the sub. For the sub, turn the gain down until you can no longer feel the sweep, but still hear it.


----------



## NWS Alpine

kaigoss69 said:


> Did you miss the part where Andy says countless times NOT to set gains with a DMM? :blush:
> 
> Set all gains to 2V as the starting point. Then run the sweeps and adjust levels to match each other, except the sub. For the sub, turn the gain down until you can no longer feel the sweep, but still hear it.


New to audio stuff but I set the gains as low as possible and still having the same stuff. The sub sweep is very low where I can barely hear it and def can't feel it. I wish i knew someone locally who has setup an MS-8 before.

After calibrating I leave the sub gain all the way down and set the others back up (the channels running my active fronts). I then have to turn the sub all the way down in the MS-8 config screen.


----------



## drpepper

kaigoss69 said:


> Did you miss the part where Andy says countless times NOT to set gains with a DMM? :blush:
> 
> Set all gains to 2V as the starting point. Then run the sweeps and adjust levels to match each other, except the sub. For the sub, turn the gain down until you can no longer feel the sweep, but still hear it.


I'm not understanding why this is necessary. I thought that was the whole point of the MS-8 in that after setting gains it does the tuning for you.


----------



## musicfan

Vitty said:


> Any thoughts on why the MS-8 is clipping my signal at volumes higher than -15 on the MS-8? My head unit can be at very low volume and I still get the clipping. I am rather confused as the last time I used the MS-8 I could go to a much higher volume level. At volume 27 of 35 on my head unit and volume -16 on the MS-8 it is not even close to being loud at all. I can't come up with what I am doing wrong. Calibrating the unit around -25. Amp gains roughly half way up (Zuki Eleets 4).
> 
> Alpine w910 (Front R/L RCA) --> MS-8 --> Amps
> Fronts: 1 way
> Sides: 1 way
> Sub: 1, 65 hz crossover, 24db slope


I have the w910 and I have measured clean output up to volume 31. The waveform started clipping at 32. Most likely the HU is not the problem, but you may want to double check that all the DSP settings, media xpander, and EQ are turned off. Make sure that the subwoofer "system" is set to "System 1." Also, note that setting the DSP defeat On does not disable the HPF on the front RCAs--just the HPF menu! You have to turn off the HPF before turning off DSP. 

I'm far from the expert here (and you don't give a lot of details about your setup), but my guess would be that your sub crossover point is way too low. Once they are installed in a car, most front speakers can't play down to 65hz without peaks, dips, or resonances that the MS-8 can't fix without clipping. Try calibrating with the sub crossed at 100hz or even 120hz and see if it fixes the clipping problem. If not, you may want to post a lot more detail about your setup to help the experts with troubleshooting.

W910 at vol 31:


----------



## subwoofery

Vitty said:


> I turned the amp gains to minimum then recalibrated. The test tones are very faint now. I no longer get clipping from the MS-8, even at 0, however my music is not getting very loud. If I turn the gains on the amps up I get the clipping back again.


Give us more infos if you want to get any help. 
HU... Factory or aftermarket? 
Number of drivers? 
2-way front or 3-way front? 
Active? 
Rears? 
Center? 
Xover points? 
What is running off what? 


Kelvin


----------



## 14642

NWS Alpine said:


> New to audio stuff but I set the gains as low as possible and still having the same stuff. The sub sweep is very low where I can barely hear it and def can't feel it. I wish i knew someone locally who has setup an MS-8 before.
> 
> After calibrating I leave the sub gain all the way down and set the others back up (the channels running my active fronts). I then have to turn the sub all the way down in the MS-8 config screen.


What crossover setting are you using on the JL amp for the subwoofer? Try setting this up without the center and the rears for now (just enter "none" for center and rears in the menu).


----------



## kaigoss69

drpepper said:


> I'm not understanding why this is necessary. I thought that was the whole point of the MS-8 in that *after setting gains* it does the tuning for you.


Wasn't my post entirely about setting gains?


----------



## kaigoss69

BTW Andy, I am back from vacation and set out to try your little "experiment" last week but for some reason I was not able to get an audio signal from my home DVD player's RCA outputs. I don't have any other playback devices that have RCA out, so I am looking for a 3.5 mm to RCA cable so I can use my iPod. 

One thing I noticed though was a moderate level of noise being generated while the RCA plugs were hooked up to the MS-8 and the input was set to "head unit". When I switched to "Aux", the noise went away. Any thoughts?


----------



## NWS Alpine

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> What crossover setting are you using on the JL amp for the subwoofer? Try setting this up without the center and the rears for now (just enter "none" for center and rears in the menu).


I thought the crossovers should be off on the amp for everything. Anyways I set the Sub channel to 63hz and 12db slope. I also turned off the center and the sides. 

Sound is now incredible and working as it should. Front stage is extremely blended and vocals etc sound like the are coming from the center out way out front. I also did the looking past the mirrors and slightly up. Now I need to go back when I have some time and start adding things back to see exactly what is causing the issues from before.


----------



## 14642

OK. Cool. BTW, Looking past the mirrors and slightly up is urban legend. The only thing that will do is remove a bit of high frequency from the measurement, so the EQ will boost the highs a little bit.


----------



## musicfan

musicfan said:


> OK, y'all have convinced me to add a set of tweeters to supplement the highs from my Hybrid L3SE's.
> [...]
> Out of necessity, the L3SE's are mounted in the corners of the dash, tilted toward the listener a bit but still reflecting off the windshield. I can put the tweets very close to them to minimize time alignment differences, but would it be better to mount the tweets (A) right next to and on the same axis as the mids, or (B) on the a-pillar an inch or two further away from the mids, but aimed more directly on axis toward the listener(s)?
> [...]
> 
> Thanks for any advice you can give!
> 
> P.S. The rest of my system is detailed in this post.


I didn't get any response on this the first time, so I thought I'd try again. I have ordered a set of JL C5-075ct tweets to take over the highs from the L3SE's. They have 12db/octave filters included and cross over around 4kHz. Planning to run them together with the mids on the same MS-8 channels. I can give the mids and tweets their own separate amp channels, but my amp's crossovers don't go above 500hz. Do I need a passive 12db LPF on the mids? 

Also, any advice on placement, relative to the mids, would be greatly appreciated. (See options A & B above.)

Thanks!


----------



## kaigoss69

musicfan said:


> I didn't get any response on this the first time, so I thought I'd try again. I have ordered a set of JL C5-075ct tweets to take over the highs from the L3SE's. They have 12db/octave filters included and cross over around 4kHz. Planning to run them together with the mids on the same MS-8 channels. I can give the mids and tweets their own separate amp channels, but my amp's crossovers don't go above 500hz. Do I need a passive 12db LPF on the mids?
> 
> Also, any advice on placement, relative to the mids, would be greatly appreciated. (See options A & B above.)
> 
> Thanks!


Interested in any responses to your post, as well as your findings after you install the tweeters! BTW, could you not find a solution where the tweeters take over say at 10kHz? The L3SE do very well off-axis. I think if you had to add tweeters, you would want to cut them (the L3SE's) off higher than 4kHz.


----------



## quietfly

musicfan said:


> I didn't get any response on this the first time, so I thought I'd try again. I have ordered a set of JL C5-075ct tweets to take over the highs from the L3SE's. They have 12db/octave filters included and cross over around 4kHz. Planning to run them together with the mids on the same MS-8 channels. I can give the mids and tweets their own separate amp channels, but my amp's crossovers don't go above 500hz. Do I need a passive 12db LPF on the mids?
> 
> Also, any advice on placement, relative to the mids, would be greatly appreciated. (See options A & B above.)
> 
> Thanks!


I'd look in to using a custom passive Xover that lets you tailor your hpf a bit higher, i think 4k is too low to stop the l3se's i'd try a bit higher, like in the 6-7k range


----------



## quietfly

Double post


----------



## pionkej

Andy (or anybody else)-

I have two questions before I finish up the first part of my install.

First, is there any advantage to using line-level or speaker-level inputs since I have the option with my OEM headunit? The bose amp is right by the MS8, so I can catch the balanced signal before the amp and add RCA's or I can use the speaker outputs after the amp. Speaker-level is easier IMHO, but I thought I read about turn-on pop issues and alt. whine using this method sometimes (but I couldn't find it searching).

Second, in HT 7.1 setups, you are actually supposed to put the side speakers directly beside, and slightly above, the listener if possible. Is there any advantage to this with the MS8? I'm looking to run 7.1, and I don't want the sides way down in the passgenger door (factory location). This leaves me with putting them at the top of the B-pillars (I have room) which IS directly beside, and slightly above, the listener, or moving them all the way back to the C-pillar, slightly toed-in, and only a bit away from the rears (which will be about 24" apart in the rear hatch area (which is more like a 6.1 setup).

Thanks for any input you guys have. If you only pick one to help me with, the first is more important since that will get my tunes going (sides/rears are getting installed later).


----------



## 14642

pionkej said:


> Andy (or anybody else)-
> 
> I have two questions before I finish up the first part of my install.
> 
> First, is there any advantage to using line-level or speaker-level inputs since I have the option with my OEM headunit? The bose amp is right by the MS8, so I can catch the balanced signal before the amp and add RCA's or I can use the speaker outputs after the amp. Speaker-level is easier IMHO, but I thought I read about turn-on pop issues and alt. whine using this method sometimes (but I couldn't find it searching).
> 
> Second, in HT 7.1 setups, you are actually supposed to put the side speakers directly beside, and slightly above, the listener if possible. Is there any advantage to this with the MS8? I'm looking to run 7.1, and I don't want the sides way down in the passgenger door (factory location). This leaves me with putting them at the top of the B-pillars (I have room) which IS directly beside, and slightly above, the listener, or moving them all the way back to the C-pillar, slightly toed-in, and only a bit away from the rears (which will be about 24" apart in the rear hatch area (which is more like a 6.1 setup).
> 
> Thanks for any input you guys have. If you only pick one to help me with, the first is more important since that will get my tunes going (sides/rears are getting installed later).


There are advantages to both. If you use line level input, then you probably have a stereo 2-channel signal, so MS-8 doesn't have to reconstruct one. The advantage to high-level input is that no ground loop is possible (no chance of engine noise) because it's isolated from ground by 6V.

Side and rear speaker placement isn't critical, but following the same logic as a home 7.1 is good. Sides higher in the car is good. Rears don't matter too much.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> There are advantages to both. If you use line level input, then you probably have a stereo 2-channel signal, so MS-8 doesn't have to reconstruct one. The advantage to high-level input is that no ground loop is possible (no chance of engine noise) because it's isolated from ground by 6V.
> 
> Side and rear speaker placement isn't critical, but following the same logic as a home 7.1 is good. Sides higher in the car is good. Rears don't matter too much.


Andy on the rear/side setup of a sedan or coupe, is there ANY downside to using rears only in the rear deck where they are spaced apart no more than where the front passengers heads would be? 

Would it be a much better setup to add sides to the rear pillars, aiming somewhat forward and crossed a bit higher to keep enclosure size down. Then run the rear in the same place with their full needed bandwidth.

If there is an advantage to that, can we just run "sides" and do a 3 way back there with the mid and tweeter up high in the pillar and the midbass on the rear deck location?


----------



## Chrisw21

Finally got the system hooked up and now it's time to experiment a little!! Played with the MS-8 a little tonight, but after 2 hours of sitting in the driveway trying different settings, I think the neighbors are getting a little PO'd!!!! Still lacking in the mids and overpowering down low (especially at lower volumes.... maybe from factory HU bass roll off????), but tomorrow is another day. I tried setting the MS-8 anywhere from -40dB to -60dB (in 5dB steps) with similar results. Then tried folding down the rear seats and facing the sub towards the cabin. This gave better results, but still not quite there. Tomorrow I'll try sweeps without the sub in an effort to boost mids, then add the sub in after. FWIW.... the staging has been near perfect no matter what I did. Other than the last sweep I did (which ended up slightly left of center) the stage has been deep in the center of the dash, right at the windshield. Amazing!! I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow!!


----------



## KSUWildcatFan

Just bought an MS-8 for my build.. I've never used processing of any sort but I was blown away by the marketing campaign (nice work there!) and I've heard glowing reviews all around.

I can't wait to see how this thing does. First order of business is to put it up against my wife's nearly-stock configuration in an '06 Focus ZX4. After that, it gets moved into the 'real' car with the 'real' system. 

282 pages on this thread..holy cow. :O

-Jordan


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## jon302v8

Chrisw21 said:


> Still lacking in the mids and overpowering down low (especially at lower volumes.... maybe from factory HU bass roll off????), but tomorrow is another day. I tried setting the MS-8 anywhere from -40dB to -60dB (in 5dB steps) with similar results. Then tried folding down the rear seats and facing the sub towards the cabin. This gave better results, but still not quite there. Tomorrow I'll try sweeps without the sub in an effort to boost mids, then add the sub in after. FWIW.... the staging has been near perfect no matter what I did.


Any luck?

I'm having the same results... staging is always awesome but the sub is always overpowering. I disconnected the sub and sent the fronts everything down to 40 hz, recalibrated and it sounded great! (at least at lower volumes where the drivers could keep up). When I calibrate with the sub connected I always have to turn the sub way down and even then the freq response doesn't sound flat.

My system info:

car: WRX

head unit: Kenwood X995 w/ single pair full range RCA out

fronts: Boston Z6 2-way components in stock locations

tweeters: driven off the MS-8 on separate channels

woofers: tried using on old RF Punch 600a4 but ran into noise and channel bleed issues so I'm running these off the MS-8 while I wait for a JL HD600/4 to be delivered

no center/side/rears

sub: 10" Dayton reference HF in an audio integrations stealth box driven off the 600a4 bridged rear pair (again until HD600/4 arrives)


crossovers set to 30 / 80 / 3500 Hz.
calibrated at -40, -30, and -20... didn't seem to make a difference.


----------



## 14642

Where is the crossover set on your sub amp? Set it to the highest frequency possible and try again.


----------



## jon302v8

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Where is the crossover set on your sub amp? Set it to the highest frequency possible and try again.


I tried it two ways - 210 Hz low pass and crossover disabled. Both seemed to have the same result.

I hand-tuned the EQ by ear using a sine sweep program and the MS-8 manual EQ. I needed a big boost from 125-200 Hz and a big cut from 30-50 Hz. The crossover point (80) was about right.

The system sounds really good right now! This is my first "tune" and really the first time I've heard a good soundstage in a car (I'm not really into the hobby). I'm blown away.

I'm not sure why the autotune isn't working for me without tweaks but I could live with it as it stands. Certainly better than anything I've had in the car up to this point.

I'll keep trying once the new amp gets here.


----------



## KSUWildcatFan

jon302v8 said:


> I tried it two ways - 210 Hz low pass and crossover disabled. Both seemed to have the same result.
> 
> I hand-tuned the EQ by ear using a sine sweep program and the MS-8 manual EQ. I needed a big boost from 125-200 Hz and a big cut from 30-50 Hz. The crossover point (80) was about right.
> 
> The system sounds really good right now! This is my first "tune" and really the first time I've heard a good soundstage in a car (I'm not really into the hobby). I'm blown away.
> 
> I'm not sure why the autotune isn't working for me without tweaks but I could live with it as it stands. Certainly better than anything I've had in the car up to this point.
> 
> I'll keep trying once the new amp gets here.


Sounds like there's a lot more to it than just plugging it in, hitting the "calibrate" button, and driving off. I'm excited for mine to get here so I can see how it all works out with my system.

Glad you got yours going!

-Jordan


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## jon302v8

KSUWildcatFan said:


> Sounds like there's a lot more to it than just plugging it in, hitting the "calibrate" button, and driving off. I'm excited for mine to get here so I can see how it all works out with my system.
> 
> Glad you got yours going!
> 
> -Jordan


From a sound stage time/phase alignment perspective it has been plug-and-play.

Most of my problems were due to my old RF amp. For some reason inserting the MS-8 in-line caused the RF Punch to pick up a lot of noise from the alternator/HIDs/processors/etc. On top of that during the sub calibration sweeps I could hear bleed through to the front left channel. So for now I'm powering the fronts only with the MS-8.

Today I verified my sub freq response issues with TrueRTA+ECM8000 and tweaked the EQ a bit. For the most part it was as I described above (needed to cut 30-50, boost 125-200).

I was surprised at how much combing still exists but it differs so much between left/right ear and head angle that I'm sure the MS-8 can't compensate for everything.

In general I'm extremely happy with how it sounds. I wasn't expecting much since my 2-way fronts are in the stock locations (tweeter high in door on-axis, woofer low in door off-axis).

Now I might install a pair of rear door coaxials just to see what happens. I want to keep the stock speaker locations for "stealth" reasons.


----------



## Chrisw21

> Any luck?
> 
> I'm having the same results... staging is always awesome but the sub is always overpowering. I disconnected the sub and sent the fronts everything down to 40 hz, recalibrated and it sounded great! (at least at lower volumes where the drivers could keep up). When I calibrate with the sub connected I always have to turn the sub way down and even then the freq response doesn't sound flat.


I haven't had a whole lot of time to play with it yet. Sounds like you're getting closer, though! I'm pretty sure my sub amp crossover is turned to its highest setting, but I'll double check. So far it seems like I'm really gonna need to hook up my sub amp bass boost knob. There is just SOOOO much difference between the radio, CDs, and using my phone for an aux (Grooveshark, Pandora, and iHeart Radio). I knew the levels would be different, but I wasn't expecting it to be so great! I've still got a few other things to try such as covering the tweets, lowering sub gain, sub placement, attenuation level of the passive crossovers, etc. Before I got the system in, I was too concerned about getting everything perfect and having everything perform to full potential the first try around (that's just the engineer in me!!), but now I'm finding that making little tweaks here and there and running sweeps again is kind of fun! I get to experiment a little and learn the little nuances of the MS-8. If I'm still not happy 1 week from now, then I'll probably be pissed, but right now I'm enjoying the journey!!

FWIW.... My system in a 2005 Mercedes CLK 500:
-Factory HU
-2 sets ID CTX65CS in stock location (not using tweets in rear/sides right now, may add them later)
-CTX's driven by Arc FD4150
-IDQ12D4V3 sub in a small (~1 cu.ft.) sealed enclosure, running 2 ohms
-Sub driven by Arc FD600.1


----------



## Tony2006

Can anyone help me with my install please.
Hey Andy if you're out there your input is appreciated also.

I have a 2007 Acura TL S with navi and bluetooth.

I will be using aftermarket amps with the ms-8. My main question is when i tap to get signal from the front speakers and subwoofer to the ms-8 should i tap it before the factory amp or after?

thanks for all your help.


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## quietfly

i figure andys answer is best....


Andy Wehmeyer said:


> There are advantages to both. If you use line level input, then you probably have a stereo 2-channel signal, so MS-8 doesn't have to reconstruct one. The advantage to high-level input is that no ground loop is possible (no chance of engine noise) because it's isolated from ground by 6V.


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## dentalpain

I recently picked up a handheld RadioShack SPL meter. What is the target db for the sweeps? I know this has been covered but I wanted to get the consensus answer. 

I calibrated at -31db and got very good results, however this shows ~60db on the meter.


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## SoundJunkie

dentalpain said:


> I recently picked up a handheld RadioShack SPL meter. What is the target db for the sweeps? I know this has been covered but I wanted to get the consensus answer.
> 
> I calibrated at -31db and got very good results, however this shows ~60db on the meter.


Normal conversation level....check yourself talking to yourself with the SPL meter and see what you get. The level of the MS8 volume is dependent upon gain settings...driver sizes....amp power...etc. My sweeps are best around 30-32 also.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## quietfly

I find that balancing my gains first, right after the input/output setup, then running sweeps barely audible (for me around -32-35) works best...


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## Chrisw21

quietfly said:


> I find that balancing my gains first, right after the input/output setup, then running sweeps barely audible (for me around -32-35) works best...


What are you guys running that your sweeps are "barely audible" at 32-35??? I didn't think my system was too crazy, but I can clearly hear the sweeps at -60dB, and at that level I can still kind of feel the sub sweep!!! Are you running external amps or just using the MS-8??


Side Question: Is there any way to get more volume out of the Aux Input? When I play through the HU I can get all the volume I'll ever need, but through the Aux input, I can set the MS-8 all the way up to 0dB and it still is quiet. And when I say "quiet", I don't mean barely audible. I mean about the same level (maybe a little less) as the factory sound system. With ~1300 watts RMS I want the option to reach obnoxious levels if I so desire... Aux is driven by my Android phone. Thanks!!


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## dentalpain

My system is as follows:
2011 Honda Accord EX-L w/ premium
JL HD900
Focal 165KR (80hz @ 24)
Focal 165 Access (120hz @ 24)
JL 13W6 w/ HD Level Control (20hz @24)
Connected via high level, b/c my installer said he could not get enough voltage from low level (pre factory amp). This was confusing to me b/c I was running everything before adding the MS8 and it was connected via low level, w/RCAs. 

First, I closed the gains on the amp all the way (counter clockwise). I adjusted the sub level control to about 75%. I think this is 2volts. I used the SPL meter and adjusted the volume during the channel assignment to 70db. This was 16db on the MS8. I then set the ms8 to -6db and the factory HU to ~30. Amp gains were raised equally to about 1/2 (12 oclock). The result was excellent but I am still missing that last few db on very loud material. I get what seems like digital distortion (lack of digital headroom?) on certain repeatable passages (mostly vocals). This is only at loud listening level (I don't listen at this level often but I do like it for demo/showoff times). I get the same result using the AUX in on the MS8. 

Maybe the ms8 is boosting certain holes in my system and I will try to raise the sub/front xover to 120 and back it down as a test. Speakers are all in the factory locations so maybe its an off axis issue. I'm a total newb so any help is appreciated. I am very pleased with the auto tune of the MS8 and left a 5 star amazon review.


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## t3sn4f2

nevermind


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## quietfly

Chrisw21 said:


> What are you guys running that your sweeps are "barely audible" at 32-35??? I didn't think my system was too crazy, but I can clearly hear the sweeps at -60dB, and at that level I can still kind of feel the sub sweep!!! Are you running external amps or just using the MS-8??
> 
> 
> Side Question: Is there any way to get more volume out of the Aux Input? When I play through the HU I can get all the volume I'll ever need, but through the Aux input, I can set the MS-8 all the way up to 0dB and it still is quiet. And when I say "quiet", I don't mean barely audible. I mean about the same level (maybe a little less) as the factory sound system. With ~1300 watts RMS I want the option to reach obnoxious levels if I so desire... Aux is driven by my Android phone. Thanks!!


I'm running external amps, pushing just over watts 2000 rms. I level match my gains very very low, in the step just before the sweeps. This seems to make a huge difference for me. 
Im not sure about your phone, but my EVO 4G pushes my system to obnoxious levels pretty well. If I go to -6 on the master volume control I'm as loud as ill ever want it. (as in waking up the neighbours sleeping twins from inside a garage next door) make sure your phone vol is up, and try using a different cable just to make sure... 

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


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## subwoofery

Chrisw21 said:


> What are you guys running that your sweeps are "barely audible" at 32-35??? I didn't think my system was too crazy, but I can clearly hear the sweeps at -60dB, and at that level *I can still kind of feel the sub sweep!!!* Are you running external amps or just using the MS-8??
> 
> 
> Side Question: Is there any way to get more volume out of the Aux Input? When I play through the HU I can get all the volume I'll ever need, but through the Aux input, I can set the MS-8 all the way up to 0dB and it still is quiet. And when I say "quiet", I don't mean barely audible. I mean about the same level (maybe a little less) as the factory sound system. With ~1300 watts RMS I want the option to reach obnoxious levels if I so desire... Aux is driven by my Android phone. Thanks!!


^ tells you that your gain setting is not good. lower your gain since you're calibrating @ -60dB

Kelvin


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## Chrisw21

subwoofery said:


> ^ tells you that your gain setting is not good. lower your gain since you're calibrating @ -60dB
> 
> Kelvin


I'll try that, but right now I have them set right around 2V, which is what is recommended for the MS-8. I'm using Arc amps which have a max gain setting of 2.5V and I have them set at about 75-80% of max.


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## quietfly

Chrisw21 said:


> I'll try that, but right now I have them set right around 2V, which is what is recommended for the MS-8. I'm using Arc amps which have a max gain setting of 2.5V and I have them set at about 75-80% of max.


I think i "see" what your issue is. 
When we are "setting the gain" FOR the MS-8, What we are doing is calibrating how much *INPUT* from the Headunit is required to get the best output from the MS-8. 

What it looks like you are doing is * setting the gain on your AMPS*, or AFTER your MS-8, which is why your system is so loud. 

Try this. 

reset your inputs and out puts, once you get to the "Channel selection " screen:
_front left 
front right
center
ETC_

adjust your AMPLIFIER gains so that they *are all equal and conversation level or lower.*
You should just be barely able to hear your sub, and *SHOULD NOT be able to feel it at all*

When you run the test noise sweeps if you can feel the subs, set the volume level lower. 
Andy has said if you feel the volume is to low, its probably about right....

This is the method i've used time and time again to get the best results. 

Also XOVER points!!!
Be realistic in choosing them as well as realize what they are doing. 
when using steep xover points you may need to set them up a bit differently than you are used to. 
Case in point i would regularly set up my Xover for my sub at around 63 @ 12 dbs in a *normal* installation. in the past that has worked extremely well for the vehicle and the box. however with the MS-8 install i now have my sub setup for a 100hz @ 24 db xover point and the bass is totally up in the front and tighter than you would think a 100hz xover point should be.

hope this helps...


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## dentalpain

Quiet: When you are setting the amplifier gains (during the channel selection/diagnotics test tones) What vol. setting on the ms8 are you using? 

I thought I wanted 2v (closed gains) on my jl hd900 amp before starting the audio calibration. 

I am confused b/c some people say 75db, 80, 85db while others say whisper quite? 

I am close, very close and ms8 give good sound on a wide range of setting, just want to set this up the "right" way (for my system). Thanks in advance guys.


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## quietfly

dentalpain said:


> Quiet: When you are setting the amplifier gains (during the channel selection/diagnotics test tones) What vol. setting on the ms8 are you using?
> 
> I thought I wanted 2v (closed gains) on my jl hd900 amp before starting the audio calibration.
> 
> I am confused b/c some people say 75db, 80, 85db while others say whisper quite?
> 
> I am close, very close and ms8 give good sound on a wide range of setting, just want to set this up the "right" way (for my system). Thanks in advance guys.


When I set my system up the master vol on the ms-8 is @ 30

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


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## kaigoss69

Chrisw21 said:


> I'll try that, but right now I have them set right around 2V, which is what is recommended for the MS-8. I'm using Arc amps which have a max gain setting of 2.5V and I have them set at about 75-80% of max.


You're making a common mistake. The gain is there to match the input voltage. The gain setting all the way counterclockwise is for the highest input voltage, in your case 2.5V. So the 2V setting is a few ticks clockwise, say at 5-10%.


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## Chrisw21

kaigoss69 said:


> You're making a common mistake. The gain is there to match the input voltage. The gain setting all the way counterclockwise is for the highest input voltage, in your case 2.5V. So the 2V setting is a few ticks clockwise, say at 5-10%.


I've seen amps with the gain pot like this, but I don't think you are correct in this case. If that is the way the Arc's are set up, then I'm screwed because I have them set about 80% clockwise (which you are saying is well below 2V) and I can still feel the MS-8 sub sweep at -60dB. I haven't had time to play with it this week, but this weekend I will try turning the gains down (counterclockwise) and then doing the sweeps again.


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## quietfly

Chrisw21 said:


> I've seen amps with the gain pot like this, but I don't think you are correct in this case. If that is the way the Arc's are set up, then I'm screwed because I have them set about 80% clockwise (which you are saying is well below 2V) and I can still feel the MS-8 sub sweep at -60dB. I haven't had time to play with it this week, but this weekend I will try turning the gains down (counterclockwise) and then doing the sweeps again.


think of it this way, 
*Forget about the 2volt number.*

Start with your master volume on the MS-8 set to *30*, now turn your gains all the way off so there is* NO sound*. 
Get to the "Channel selection " screen 
slowly in small increments raise your gains on your front channels so that the pink noise is at *"LOW" conversation level* then slowly adjust the sides (if any) and sub to match. I always match the sub and then _dial a smidgen back. _

This is the method i get the best tuning response to. 

YMMV


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## Chrisw21

quietfly said:


> think of it this way,
> *Forget about the 2volt number.*
> 
> Start with your master volume on the MS-8 set to *30*, now turn your gains all the way off so there is* NO sound*.
> Get to the "Channel selection " screen
> slowly in small increments raise your gains on your front channels so that the pink noise is at *"LOW" conversation level* then slowly adjust the sides (if any) and sub to match. I always match the sub and then _dial a smidgen back. _
> 
> This is the method i get the best tuning response to.
> 
> YMMV


I'm with ya quietfly, and I plan on trying your tips this weekend. I just wanted to point out that not all amp gains are set the way kai suggested. I set my amp gains at 2V before the sweeps because that is how I interpreted the MS-8 instructions. I've also been going by the manual's recommended crossover points. I think I'll play with those a little, also, this weekend.


----------



## kaigoss69

Chrisw21 said:


> I've seen amps with the gain pot like this, but I don't think you are correct in this case. If that is the way the Arc's are set up, then I'm screwed because I have them set about 80% clockwise (which you are saying is well below 2V) and I can still feel the MS-8 sub sweep at -60dB. I haven't had time to play with it this week, but this weekend I will try turning the gains down (counterclockwise) and then doing the sweeps again.


I'm too tired to explain but your amp is no different from any other. Set your gains all the way counterclockwise (2.5V) or slightly above and you will be fine. Then you will find out that sweeps at -30dB MS-8 volume sound just about right.


----------



## kaigoss69

Chrisw21 said:


> I'm with ya quietfly, and I plan on trying your tips this weekend. I just wanted to point out that not all amp gains are set the way kai suggested. I set my amp gains at 2V before the sweeps because that is how I interpreted the MS-8 instructions. I've also been going by the manual's recommended crossover points. I think I'll play with those a little, also, this weekend.


No, you did not set them at 2V. Have you been listening?


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## Chrisw21

kaigoss69 said:


> No, you did not set them at 2V. Have you been listening?


So you're saying that with my gains set at 80% CLOCKWISE (which is prob about .75V or so, according to your logic), this is causing my subs to pay too loud???? This is causing me to be able to feel the sweep at -60dB??? Your logic confuses me..... I'm not turning my gains up after the sweeps, so please explain.


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## kaigoss69

Chrisw21 said:


> So you're saying that with my gains set at 80% CLOCKWISE (*which is prob about .75V or so*), this is causing my subs to pay too loud???? Your logic confuses me..... I'm not turning my gains up after the sweeps, so please explain.


Ding ding ding..

So by setting the gain to .75V, you are telling the amp that the input signal is .75V. However, the input signal is really 2V, so the amp would try to produce over twice its rated power if you maxed out MS-8's volume.

Read the first 3 paragraphs in this thread for a better understanding of the gain's function: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/how-articles-provided-our-members/542-tutorial-gain-setting-amplifier-power-usage.html


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## Chrisw21

kaigoss69 said:


> Ding ding ding..
> 
> So by setting the gain to .75V, you are telling the amp that the input signal is .75V. However, the input signal is really 2V, so the amp would try to produce over twice its rated power if you maxed out MS-8's volume.
> 
> Read the first 3 paragraphs in this thread for a better understanding of the gain's function: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/how-articles-provided-our-members/542-tutorial-gain-setting-amplifier-power-usage.html


"I see!", said the blind man..... Now I get it. Thanks for the explanation, and for not beating me up TOO bad......


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## kaigoss69

Chrisw21 said:


> "I see!", said the blind man..... Now I get it. Thanks for the explanation, and for not beating me up TOO bad......


:thumbsup:

And remember, all the way counterclockwise is not "off", it is 2.5V.


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## Beato

kaigoss69 said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> And remember, all the way counterclockwise is not "off", it is 2.5V.


Taken from the gain thread you posted (which was great BTW, thank you) is what chad saying below a good rule of thumb? 



chad said:


> Honestly, it's tough. Rednek rule of thumb, if you have to really open up your deck to get it louder than all get-out you are doing good. If you barely crack it and it loud or can't find a comfortable listening level when the volume control is lower then back off the amp gains. If it just won't go loud enough then open the amp gains up a tad.
> 
> When I actually use test gear, (read bored) I'll overlap the headunit gain by about 6 dB or more from where the amp clips. This allows for source material that was not normalized well. You will not be happy with a system where eveything clips at 0dBFS.
> 
> Chad


I’m curious because last night I went through the steps you and others outlined and the gains for my fronts were almost all the way counterclockwise (to get MS8 volume to -40 for sweeps). Now I’m turning my HU volume up to “38 - 41” when listening to tunes. Previously where the gains were calibrated to, I would be around 20-30 HU volume (loud). Is this making the HU and then the MS8 and then the amp work harder or just the opposite? 

I'm still trying to figure out / wrap my head around the stock HU freq roll-off business. I don't know if is has to do with the "Crest factor" but the louder the volume is turned up the overall SQ seems less clearer? Its not distorting, it just seems at times some of the smoothness of say the kick isn't there. I know there is so much going on (road noise and all the physics, psychoacoustics) things just seem to move around at times. I dunno, maybe my ears are continually getting better and am spotting things. OK, nuff ramblings sorry.


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## kaigoss69

Beato, if you have to crank your HU more than 75% to get acceptable volume level, then I would raise the amp gains a bit, unless you were not maxing out the MS-8 volume first. IOW, if your HU is at 75%+ AND the MS-8 is at -6dB, and the volume is still too low, your amp gains need to be raised.


----------



## musicfan

kaigoss69 said:


> Interested in any responses to your post, as well as your findings after you install the tweeters! BTW, could you not find a solution where the tweeters take over say at 10kHz? The L3SE do very well off-axis. I think if you had to add tweeters, you would want to cut them (the L3SE's) off higher than 4kHz.





quietfly said:


> I'd look in to using a custom passive Xover that lets you tailor your hpf a bit higher, i think 4k is too low to stop the l3se's i'd try a bit higher, like in the 6-7k range


Thanks for the suggestions. I knew the goal was to cross the L3SE's over at a frequency that was still within their piston range, but I'm actually not sure what that range is.

I mounted the tweeters alongside the L3SE's, and I'll try running as a 3-way active (no sides) so I can try out some higher crossover points. 

Now if I can just rummage around here and find a pair of caps to put inline with the tweeters as a safeguard...


----------



## Beato

kaigoss69 said:


> Beato, if you have to crank your HU more than 75% to get acceptable volume level, then I would raise the amp gains a bit, unless you were not maxing out the MS-8 volume first. IOW, if your HU is at 75%+ AND the MS-8 is at -6dB, and the volume is still too low, your amp gains need to be raised.


Ok, got it thanks.


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## Tony2006

Please help somebody... I just hooked up my ms-8.
I have factory navi and bluetooth in my TL.
I used the front and right signal before th factory amp. 
I'm getting a hsss noise when my volume is at 0. 
Can someone tell me what I did wrong. Is it because I tap the signal before the factory amp or should I redo it and tap for signal after the factory amp?


----------



## AudioBob

You should tap after the factory amp.


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## Tony2006

I'll try that. Thanks. 
By the way is there a reason why to tap after the factory amp?


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## radarcontact

Tony2006 said:


> I used the front and right signal before th factory amp.


typo? "FRONT and RIGHT"? 

If you meant FRONT LEFT and FRONT RIGHT then I would say you intercepted the output signal correctly. If you meant FRONT and REAR, then I would say to just to use the front. In my BMW, pulling the signal prior to the amp (like you did) is he proper way because it's a full signal. After the BMW amp it becomes a HP, LP, or BP signal (not full anymore). I don't know about Acuras.

--CAPS used for clarification, in a normal tone of voice  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## [email protected]

Right know my tweeters are powered by the ms8. Xover ist 10kHz/24dB. 
Makes it sense to give em more power with a seperate amp?


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## JJAZ

[email protected] said:


> Right know my tweeters are powered by the ms8. Xover ist 10kHz/24dB.
> Makes it sense to give em more power with a seperate amp?


More power, why..?

What your tweeters need is a lower crossover frequency, what kind of install have you made to justify crossing over the tweeters at 10kHz?


----------



## [email protected]

JJAZ said:


> More power, why..?
> 
> What your tweeters need is a lower crossover frequency, what kind of install have you made to justify crossing over the tweeters at 10kHz?


Its a HLCD install  i only needed the tweeters so that the ms8 can work better.


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## t3sn4f2

[email protected] said:


> Right know my tweeters are powered by the ms8. Xover ist 10kHz/24dB.
> Makes it sense to give em more power with a seperate amp?


No. Music doesn't contains anywhere near the energy at those frequencies and above as it does at lower frequencies. And to add to that, we prefer a rolled of top end in a car enviroment which further reduces the maximum output needed from the tweeter.

I just setup a 10kHz/24db high pass crossover in Foobar2000 media player and went to the peak level meter to see how it changed from when running full range mode. When any quality track, ie someone not compressed and clipped to hell, the peak meter never goes above -10dB. And the really crappy stuff, say Rihanna's "Umbrella", never never sees higher that -3dB. And that level is a clipped distorted peak in the song. 

What that tells you is that the power needed at that range is going to be at most 10x less than what the midrange and midbass is going to use. So if you have 300 watts to your midbass, the tweeter in that range is only going to use 30 watts at most. 150 then 15, 75 then 7.5, etc.

And we are talking peaks here and not average which are nearly impossible to tell when they is distortion, clip, or compression at more sensitive frequencies.

IOW you'll never use more power then what the ms-8 can provide them.


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## [email protected]

Nice write up!
And how does it look it terms of sq *above 10kHz*
I mean, is it possible to hear changes in that frequence range because of the different sound of an other amp (i.e. lower THD or a higher K2).


----------



## Chrisw21

t3sn4f2 said:


> No. Music doesn't contains anywhere near the energy at those frequencies and above as it does at lower frequencies. And to add to that, we prefer a rolled of top end in a car enviroment which further reduces the maximum output needed from the tweeter.
> 
> I just setup a 10kHz/24db high pass crossover in Foobar2000 media player and went to the peak level meter to see how it changed from when running full range mode. When any quality track, ie someone not compressed and clipped to hell, the peak meter never goes above -10dB. And the really crappy stuff, say Rihanna's "Umbrella", never never sees higher that -3dB. And that level is a clipped distorted peak in the song.
> 
> What that tells you is that the power needed at that range is going to be at most 10x less than what the midrange and midbass is going to use. So if you have 300 watts to your midbass, the tweeter in that range is only going to use 30 watts at most. 150 then 15, 75 then 7.5, etc.
> 
> And we are talking peaks here and not average which are nearly impossible to tell when they is distortion, clip, or compression at more sensitive frequencies.
> 
> IOW you'll never use more power then what the ms-8 can provide them.


I knew that higher frequencies required less power, but never realized the difference was so great! What I'm wondering now is, can I use the MS-8 to power my tweeters and go active? I'm currently running ~100w per side and using a passive crossover. Will the MS-8 put out enough to keep up with the mids or will I lose out on the highs?? Obviously I wouldn't be crossing over at 10KHz, so I'll need more power than the "10x less" mentioned above, but using the MS-8 would give me ~5x less going to the tweets. Would that be enough??

*Side Question:* Anyone know of an MS-8 expert around central Florida? I have TONS of questions about my set-up, but I don't want to clog up the forum with what some people may consider "stupid questions" and receiving responses such as "read all 7100 posts to find your answer" gets pretty old....

Thanks!!


----------



## t3sn4f2

Chrisw21 said:


> I knew that higher frequencies required less power, but never realized the difference was so great! What I'm wondering now is, can I use the MS-8 to power my tweeters and go active? I'm currently running ~100w per side and using a passive crossover. Will the MS-8 put out enough to keep up with the mids or will I lose out on the highs?? Obviously I wouldn't be crossing over at 10KHz, so I'll need more power than the "10x less" mentioned above, but using the MS-8 would give me ~5x less going to the tweets. Would that be enough??
> 
> *Side Question:* Anyone know of an MS-8 expert around central Florida? I have TONS of questions about my set-up, but I don't want to clog up the forum with what some people may consider "stupid questions" and receiving responses such as "read all 7100 posts to find your answer" gets pretty old....
> 
> Thanks!!


That one's much harder to approximate since the range is greater and the music power down low start to be generally equal to the midrange and midbass band. Plus you might need headroom for EQ or live with a compromised output to keep things clean and dynamic. You have to look at things like tweeter sensitivity, tweeter distances from you and other speakers, reflective surfaces around the tweeter, etc.


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## t3sn4f2

[email protected] said:


> Nice write up!
> And how does it look it terms of sq *above 10kHz*
> I mean, is it possible to hear changes in that frequence range because of the different sound of an other amp (i.e. lower THD or a higher K2).


_I_ can't answer that.


----------



## [email protected]

Chrisw21 said:


> I knew that higher frequencies required less power, but never realized the difference was so great! What I'm wondering now is, can I use the MS-8 to power my tweeters and go active?


In a normal 2-way set up (xover 2,5kHz for example) i would not recommend this. 
It will work, but "when its get louder" you will likely get distortion.



t3sn4f2 said:


> _I_ can't answer that.


Thank you ! 

Maybe someone else?


----------



## Tony2006

Yes it was a typo.. Haha.. I meant front left and front right.


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## radarcontact

Tony2006 said:


> Yes it was a typo.. Haha.. I meant front left and front right.


Sound correct then. No help here, sorry.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Bluenote

Question: I am using a Cache CEX electronic xover for midrange / tweeters in a 3 way front.
The xover maxes out at 5000khz but the MS8 xover settings are higher. Does the MS8 xovers override an electronic xover setting? Or should I match the MS8 within the 'limitations' of the Cache CEX? Hope that makes sense...

My current settings are Midrange 800hz-5000khz / tweeter 5000khz and up.

Thanks


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## subwoofery

Bluenote said:


> Question: I am using a Cache CEX electronic xover for midrange / tweeters in a 3 way front.
> The xover maxes out at 5000khz but the MS8 xover settings are higher. Does the MS8 xovers override an electronic xover setting? Or should I match the MS8 within the 'limitations' of the Cache CEX? Hope that makes sense...
> 
> My current settings are Midrange 800hz-5000khz / tweeter 5000khz and up.
> 
> Thanks


Please explain it further coz I didn't understand a thing... 

Your electronic Xover is what? a passive? or an external Xover like the Coustic piece? 
Where is your MS-8 Xover point set at? 

Kelvin


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## radarcontact

Bluenote said:


> Question: I am using a Cache CEX electronic xover for midrange / tweeters in a 3 way front.
> The xover maxes out at 5000khz but the MS8 xover settings are higher. Does the MS8 xovers override an electronic xover setting? Or should I match the MS8 within the 'limitations' of the Cache CEX? Hope that makes sense...
> 
> My current settings are Midrange 800hz-5000khz / tweeter 5000khz and up.
> 
> Thanks


Do you have to use the CEX and the MS-8 at the same time? If I may ask, why do you still need the CEX? If you are having the CEX do all your xing and are treating the whole three-way as a singularly-amplified-unit, then just tell the ms-8 that it's a full-range/1-way. If you aren't, then just let the ms-8 do it all. Hope that makes sense.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Bluenote

Yes I am using the CEX external xover to combine the Mid/Tweet to facilitate 2 channels off the MS8 in order to run 3 way front + Ctr + rears + sub. Without an external xover I could only do a two way unless I used Passives. So, the CEX has xover freq settings that limit me to 5000khz max and I was asking if the MS8 xover would override the CEX settings 'if' I wanted to go higher 6000, 8000 etc..I hope this makes a little more sense as I appreciate your attempts to address the question 

BTW: the MS8 is currently crossed at 
Sub / Midbass 80hz /24db
Midrange 800hz/5000khz. 
Tweeter 5000khz and up
Ctr 100hz and up
Rears 100hz and up


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## subwoofery

Bluenote said:


> Yes I am using the CEX external xover to combine the Mid/Tweet to facilitate 2 channels off the MS8 in order to run 3 way front + Ctr + rears + sub. Without an external xover I could only do a two way unless I used Passives. So, the CEX has xover freq settings that limit me to 5000khz max and I was asking if the MS8 xover would override the CEX settings 'if' I wanted to go higher 6000, 8000 etc..I hope this makes a little more sense as I appreciate your attempts to address the question
> 
> BTW: the MS8 is currently crossed at
> Sub / Midbass 80hz /24db
> Midrange 800hz/5000khz.
> Tweeter 5000khz and up
> Ctr 100hz and up
> Rears 100hz and up


If you're using the CEX to bandpass your midranges and to HP your tweeters then no, the MS-8 won't override anything. 

Kelvin


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## Bluenote

Thanks! that's exactly how it's being used and exactly what I wanted to find out. Is there another external xover that would provide a wider frequency range?


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## m0sdef

Bluenote said:


> Thanks! that's exactly how it's being used and exactly what I wanted to find out. Is there another external xover that would provide a wider frequency range?


How about the Mini dsp? I was thinking of adding one into my setup.


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## Bluenote

I never even considered that, but it sounds like a great option thanks!


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## cycfari

I searched the manual and there's no mention of whether the acoustic measurements are to be done with engine/aircon etc ON or OFF? My car vibrates badly when idling & I'm wondering whether it will be better to OFF the engine during measurements. Can someone advice me? Thanks


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## kaigoss69

cycfari said:


> I searched the manual and there's no mention of whether the acoustic measurements are to be done with engine/aircon etc ON or OFF? My car vibrates badly when idling & I'm wondering whether it will be better to OFF the engine during measurements. Can someone advice me? Thanks


OFF!


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## kaigoss69

Bluenote said:


> Yes I am using the CEX external xover to combine the Mid/Tweet to facilitate 2 channels off the MS8 in order to run 3 way front + Ctr + rears + sub. Without an external xover I could only do a two way unless I used Passives. So, the CEX has xover freq settings that limit me to 5000khz max and I was asking if the MS8 xover would override the CEX settings 'if' I wanted to go higher 6000, 8000 etc..I hope this makes a little more sense as I appreciate your attempts to address the question
> 
> BTW: the MS8 is currently crossed at
> Sub / Midbass 80hz /24db
> Midrange 800hz/5000khz.
> Tweeter 5000khz and up
> Ctr 100hz and up
> Rears 100hz and up


Your terminology is a bit misleading. What you have now - in MS-8 terms - is a 2-way front. So one signal goes to the midbass (bandpassed between sub and mids) and the other goes to the mids-highs (highpassed after the midbass). So the signal from the MS-8 going to the mids-highs is currently 800 - 20,000Hz. You have elected to split that signal externally which is nothing else than using a passive crossover. No matter what you do with your "passive" crossover, the FR coming from the MS-8 does not and must not change. If you want to cross your tweeters higher than 5khz, then you must either use a different "passive" crossover or you must change the MS-8 configuration to 3-way front, which would mean you lose the sides.


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## nerofive4

Does a 2009 Hybrid Escape have a cancelation mic? I am having random noise issue and am wondering if that may be a possibility.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> There are several work-arounds and a software update that helps in some very specific circumstances.
> 
> The basic problem is that DSP processors often introduce a signal delay (takes a while for all the hamsters with their calculators inside to crunch all the numbers) and BT echo cancellation algorithms ARE their own carefully calculated delay loop. With some of them, the delay introduced by the new DSP breaks the echo cancellation loop.
> 
> Install your MS-8 according to the instructions, and if you have issues, I'll help you work through them.
> 
> Your car may also have a road noise cancellation microphone. It's important to unplug that. Please PM me the trim level and I'll look for the location of that mic for you.


----------



## Bluenote

kaigoss69 said:


> Your terminology is a bit misleading. What you have now - in MS-8 terms - is a 2-way front. So one signal goes to the midbass (bandpassed between sub and mids) and the other goes to the mids-highs (highpassed after the midbass). So the signal from the MS-8 going to the mids-highs is currently 800 - 20,000Hz. You have elected to split that signal externally which is nothing else than using a passive crossover. No matter what you do with your "passive" crossover, the FR coming from the MS-8 does not and must not change. If you want to cross your tweeters higher than 5khz, then you must either use a different "passive" crossover or you must change the MS-8 configuration to 3-way front, which would mean you lose the sides.


Kaigoss thanks for the further clarification as you nailed perfectly! 
My current set up is fine and the Cache CEX is being used at its maximum potential with my present drivers. I am anticipating changing my midrange drivers and was concerned about the capabilities of the Cache to handle higher FR's. So it's settled and thanks again!


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## nerofive4

Okay, so I am haveing random static through the ms8, It does not increase in volume with and increase in signal from the headunit, so it is not heard with the volume up, and best heard when the volume is off. The sound is heard in the tweeters.

I have the stock headunit wired to the ms-8 and then through a JL HD 900/5, My fronts are an active image dynamic xs-65. 

I have read that you need to turn down the gains on the amp when calibrating, and then you can up them again after calibration. I am trying to find out if this is true, and if so is someone can explain why, or what exactly would cause this? 

Also I saw a previous post where andy mentioned the posibility of some cars having a mic for road noise cancelation. Could this cause this issue.

As a final note, I do not have the MS-8 Mic pluged in, and it has only been pluged in previously during calibration.


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## quietfly

nerofive4 said:


> Okay, so I am haveing random static through the ms8, It does not increase in volume with and increase in signal from the headunit, so it is not heard with the volume up, and best heard when the volume is off. The sound is heard in the tweeters.
> 
> I have the stock headunit wired to the ms-8 and then through a JL HD 900/5, My fronts are an active image dynamic xs-65.
> 
> I have read that you need to turn down the gains on the amp when calibrating, and then you can up them again after calibration. I am trying to find out if this is true, and if so is someone can explain why, or what exactly would cause this?
> 
> Also I saw a previous post where andy mentioned the posibility of some cars having a mic for road noise cancelation. Could this cause this issue.
> 
> As a final note, I do not have the MS-8 Mic pluged in, and it has only been pluged in previously during calibration.


does it only happen from one tweeter? 
does it happen if you switch the inputs right and left?
you also might want to try using a different set of outputs, for example if you are using the front outputs of the head unit try using the rear inputs of the head unit. also with an Ipod and and mini to RCA adapter you can see if the noise is present on the AUX channel?
all these will help you locate the source of the nosie


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## nerofive4

quietfly said:


> does it only happen from one tweeter?
> does it happen if you switch the inputs right and left?
> you also might want to try using a different set of outputs, for example if you are using the front outputs of the head unit try using the rear inputs of the head unit. also with an Ipod and and mini to RCA adapter you can see if the noise is present on the AUX channel?
> all these will help you locate the source of the nosie


I have heard it from both tweeters, and I had the unit make noise with the head unit locked up. I will unplug all inputs and see if there is anynoise. I have not tested the aux, but I do know on a previous test when I disconnected the MS-8 completely and ran a stereo signal from my phone jack to the speakers thru the HD900/5 amp there was not any random noise.


----------



## quietfly

nerofive4 said:


> I have heard it from both tweeters, and I had the unit make noise with the head unit locked up. I will unplug all inputs and see if there is anynoise. I have not tested the aux, but I do know on a previous test when I disconnected the MS-8 completely and ran a stereo signal from my phone jack to the speakers thru the HD900/5 amp there was not any random noise.


out of curiosity what level are you doing your sweeps at? and how high is your gain set on the hd900/5 

also just to clarify are you using the high level (speaker) outs of the factory head unit?

if so were you able to run the input calibration ok ?


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## nerofive4

quietfly said:


> out of curiosity what level are you doing your sweeps at? and how high is your gain set on the hd900/5
> 
> also just to clarify are you using the high level (speaker) outs of the factory head unit?
> 
> if so were you able to run the input calibration ok ?


The gains are at 120clock on the tweeters, 4 on the mids and 2 o'clock on the sub. I have the headunit connected to the low level rca's, They are spliced into rca heads because the line ins are too low signal to work at a speaker level. I dont know what your asking when you ask about the sweeps, if its the ms-8 audio level I beleive it was at 25-30db.


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## 14642

Input sensitivity controls are often labeled with little numbers to represent signal input voltage. Sometimes they are unfortunately labeled "min" and "max". 12-o'clock, 2 o'clock and 4 o'clock are not useful unless you expect someone else to read the manual of your amplifier and determine the input signal voltage that corresponds to those settings. 

Remember, MS-8 is an EQ. If you have your tweeter amp gains set lower than everything else, MS-8 may attempt to boost the high frequencies to compensate. All systems generate some hiss somewhere and that hiss will be amplified by the EQ if there has to be a bunch of boost. Turning the amp gains for the tweeters UP and recalibrating will result in less high frequency boost and less amplification of the hiss.


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## toolsong

I'd really appreciate it if someone could post the part number for a spare MS-8 remote control.

I'm having trouble ordering one in the UK, the spare parts supplier doesn't have it listed on their system. Only replacement flush mounts and the like...


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## duro78

I have my ms8 coming on Monday I was wandering does the unit bypass the hu settings? Crossover and eq, if not what should they be set to.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## toolsong

You should download the manual 

http://www.jbl.com/images/media/MS_8_OM_EN.pdf



> 1. Set the head unit’s bass, treble, balance and fader controls to their “flat” or center positions. If possible, defeat the factory system’s additional processing (Dolby® Pro Logic® II, Logic 7®, seating-position selector, user-selectable equalization, etc.).
> Consult your vehicle owner’s manual for instructions on how to do it.


----------



## taibanl

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Too much has been made over the years about gain and level setting. Some years ago, systems were made up of a head unit, an EQ, separate electronic crossovers and then amps. Setting levels in these kinds of systems was important, but we no longer use so many analog components in a lengthy signal chain. In a system like that, each component should be driven with the highest level possible before the outputs OR the inputs are clipped. and the signal sent over the wire should be maximized to maximize the signal to noise ratio. The reason for all of this was noise. Too much INPUT sensitivity and too little output voltage would result in system hiss and would boost the level of engine noise, which would be amplified by every component in the chain.
> 
> We no longer have to be so concerned with all of that because systems now are often a head unit, a signal processor of some kind and some amplifiers. Additionally, components now often have differential inputs, which are designed to eliminate the possibility of engine noise.
> 
> So, with MS-8, the analog signal from the source is converted into a digital signal in the unit before anything else happens and we've designed the unit to make setting this level as easy as it can be. The RCAs are fixed input sensitivity and are designed to work with all aftermarket head units without any user intervention. Just plug them in and go. The unit, without EQ, is designed to provide unity gain up to 2.8V, which is plenty. That means if you put 1V in, you get 1V out. If you put 2V in, you get 2V out. If you put 9V in, you'll get 2.8V out but it'll be seriously distorted. When you turn the output of your radio down so that you send 2.8V, you'll get 2.8V that isn't clipped.
> 
> Now, one of the reasons that all of this input sensitivity setting procedure was developed and that many of us suggest things like 10dB of gain "overlap" is because a system that can't clip doesn't sound very loud, especially with recordings that have a high crest factor and little dynamic range compression added to the final mixdown. You *want* your system to clip, but you want to balance that with the amount of noise (hiss) you allow the system to produce. You *don't *want _*much*_ of this clipping to be digital distortion, because that sounds bad.
> 
> If you're using a 4V head unit with MS-8, that provides 3dB of gain overlap. You won't hear much distortion unless you listen to sine waves recorded at 0dB with the volume control turned all the way up. With normal music and the head unit's volume control all the way up, only the transients that are recorded at 0dB will be distorted, but only by 3dB. You won't hear that and if you do, simply backing the volume control of the head unit off by a couple of notches will take care of it.
> 
> Since the MS-8 is designed to provide unity gain, it's sufficient to set the input sensitivity of the amplifiers to the same setting as the output of your head unit for 0dB of gain overlap between MS-8 and your amps). This will ensure no input clipping of your amplifiers and will ensure the least noise possible. Double the input sensitivity will result in an additional 6dB of gain. So, if your head unit is a 4V unit, you can set the input sensitivity of the amps to about 1V, which will give you a total of about 9dB of "overlap". Precision isn't required.
> 
> Because MS-8 also has a volume control, you'll have to manage how you use it. You don't have to use the MS-8 control if you'd prefer to use the one on your radio. If you choose to do this, then you'll need to set the MS-8 volume control at some level that allows the right amount of "input sensitivity" but also allows enough digital headroom for the EQ inside of the MS-8 to operate without running out of bits (that causes digital distortion). I suggest setting the MS-8 control at -6dB to -9dB during listening, unless you boost the bass in MS-8. If you boost, then you should set it lower by about the same amount as you boost and then use your head unit's volume control.
> 
> If this in't enough "gain" for you, then turn the amplifiers up after calibration by the same amount to maintain MS-8's "tune".
> 
> 
> You can determine the point at which your radio outputs about 2.8V by putting the setup disc in your aftermarket radio and running input setup. The point at which you get OK OK OK is the point at which your radio outputs about 2.8V. You can continue to run input setup and MS-8 will Un-EQ and remove any channel delay. If you're using an aftermarlet radio, none of that should be necessary so all of the EQ filters will be set to unity. That means what comes in goes out. If you choose "skip input setup", all of the filters will be set to unity.
> 
> When you run acoustic calibration, MS-8 will set all of the output levels according to the acoustic response in the car. This takes into account the sensitivity of the drivers and their frequency responses. Some outputs will be increased in level and some may be decreased. So long as there's no hiss, the output level and the input sensitivity control of your amps don't matter. Let MS-8 do what it does.
> 
> When you run acoustic calibration, the output of the system can't clip the mic, or things will be ugly. If the mic is clipped during the first set of sweeps, the unit won't be able to locate the initial peak in the response and it won't set time alignment correctly. You'll know this is the case, because there won't be a center image. This is all the volume control setting for acoustic calibration is doing--making sure the system doesn't clip the mics. To ensure this, turn MS-8's volume control DOWN. If you use MS-8's internal amps, -20dB is the highest setting you'll need. If you're using additional amps, you'll have to turn it down MORE. -40, maybe. This setting doesn't matter too much in terms of the final outcome, but the level does change the way MS-8 will boost and cut, because everything has to fit in a "window". The window is big, though.
> 
> This is no different than tuning with a regular EQ. If you boost all the bands to fix holes, you'll have a super loud car and you'll probably have lots of clipping and noise. You'll also probably boost in the interest of filling holes cause by acoustic cancellation, which may overdrive your speakers and cause additional distortion. MS-8 tries NOT to do this, but it can't know for sure. If your response has big holes because you're using an 8" midbass and a 1" tweeter and the wrong crossover point, you may hear distortion because MS-8 is boosting as much as it can to fill a hole that can't be filled. Fix the speaker system. MS-8 can't make gold out of crap.
> 
> If, when you're tuning with a manual EQ, you cut all the bands to remove peaks, then you'll reduce the output voltage of the EQ at frequencies where you've cut and you'll probably want to readjust the input sensitivity of all of the amps to increase the level of the whole system to make up for it. If you think about it, this is how we all tune systems anyway. So long as you don't introduce a bunch of system hiss, this is fine. Cutting a lot and boosting a little is the best method. This is how MS-8's algorithm is designed to work. It works well, but GIGO still applies.
> 
> Once acoustic calibration is complete, if you want to use your head unit's volume control, set MS-8's volume control to -6 and go crazy. If you boost a bunch with MS-8's EQ or sub level control, you may have to turn MS-8's volume control down to leave more digital headroom for the boost. This isn't a defect. This is how digital EQ works. Some digital EQs normalize the response. That would result in everything else being reduced in level as you boost the bass (or the EQ). We didn't do this because it adds complexity to the system and the result of boosting with these systems when you reach the level at which there are no more bits available is counterintuitive.
> 
> If you want to use MS-8's control, do this: Put in a music disc, turn MS-8's volume control DOWN to something like -40 or -50 (so you know you're not clipping the outputs of MS-8 or your amps) and turn up the head unit's volume control. When you hear distortion, you'll know you're either clipping the output of the radio or the inputs of MS-8. Turn the head unit's volume control down until you don't hear any more distortion. This is the maximum usable output of the head unit for MUSIC and for that particular disc. If you listen to another disc with more or less dynamic range compression in the recording, you may find a different volume control setting produces *audible *distortion. This is related to our ability to hear distortion on transients, the length of the transients and how often those transients are repeated. The idea here is that you have control over the amount of clipping you allow. It is what it is and balancing the two volume controls will help you get the most from your system. I think the vast majority of systems will be fine.
> 
> The bass can't clip the mics during sweeps 2-4 either, because the EQ doesn't know what to do. Be sure that the level of the bass is LOW during the sweeps. If you have twelve 15" woofers and you want to wake the neighbors, turn the amp gain WAY down during calibration. The bass should be heard during the sweeps, but you shouldn't feel it. Then, after calibration, turn the gain of the amp up until you're happy. You can't wake the neighbors and have 40dB more bass than mids and highs and maintain the illusion that the bass is in the front of the car, which is what MS-8 is designed to do. You'll have to adjust the gain of the amp to get what you want, because MS-8 tries to eliminate what you want. Let MS-8 do what it does, and then make your adjustment afterward.
> 
> Finally, if the system doesn't play loudly enough, adjust the amplifier input sensitivity control to increase the overall system level. There's no need to use a meter or a scope. Just adjust them all up or down by the same amount to maintain MS-8's EQ and relative level settings. The VMM method won't work because there's a bunch of EQ applied to the signal, which increases and decreases the output voltage at different frequencies. BTW, the VMM method is only slightly more accurate than just setting by ear.
> 
> Don't be confused by all of the "this has to be precisely set to get the most from your system" garbage. If there's no noise (or the noise is low enough that you're not annoyed by it) and your system plays loudly enough, then things are set appropriately.


Andy,

First of all, I am getting Better and Better results with MS-8, I'm now to the point where my brother who owns $10k in Home audio is impressed. But I still know I have a few more notches I can go!

What does this "digital distortion" sound like? I ask because I think I am getting some when my Bluetooth cradle (the BMW station for apple iPhone) is in use. I don't know the source, whether its in the BT itself or in the MS-8.

I tried running the input setup tracks off my iPhone. I got AMAZING results, listening to some classical, and kept tweaking the 31band til I was happy. Then, I played some other lossless tracks (rock music) and it sounded HORRIBLE, so horrible it made my ears bleed. Is it possible that with the combination of the OEM HU eq, plus the analog signal loss in the dock, that the MS-8 ran out of headroom, which wasn't apparent when playing the classical?

I am trying to get the most out of level matching my rear speakers, any recommendation for an efficient 4" 2ohm for a BMW e90? As you may recall I am running hybrid, between MS-8 power for rears and amp power for fronts.

As to running a hybrid system, I have gotten the best results between -21 to -23 dB on the sweeps. This seems to make a lot of difference above or below that range. Based on what I know about MS-8, I think that I am wasting a lot of my amp power (to put it another way, MS-8 is volume limited by level matching the centers/rears, which is why the best EQ comes at those volume settings.


----------



## taibanl

^ Maybe this speaker by JBL? JBL - GTO428 - 4" 2-Way Coaxial Loudspeaker

Also thinking of using the OEM logic 7's


----------



## thinmac

cycfari said:


> I searched the manual and there's no mention of whether the acoustic measurements are to be done with engine/aircon etc ON or OFF? My car vibrates badly when idling & I'm wondering whether it will be better to OFF the engine during measurements. Can someone advice me? Thanks


This speaks to a question I've had as I think about picking up an MS-8. I've tried to find an answer in this thread, but honestly at this point it's pretty daunting; it's hard to say for sure if I missed it.

If you tune with the MS-8 when your car is stationary and the engine isn't running you aren't really replicating the environment in which you usually listen to a car stereo. Does the MS-8 have the ability to take into account the additional problems of engine and road noise? Sadly, even after $300 in dynamat and luxury liner pro my Tacoma still gets tons of noise (around 70db) through the windows at freeway speeds.


----------



## nineball

thinmac said:


> This speaks to a question I've had as I think about picking up an MS-8. I've tried to find an answer in this thread, but honestly at this point it's pretty daunting; it's hard to say for sure if I missed it.
> 
> If you tune with the MS-8 when your car is stationary and the engine isn't running you aren't really replicating the environment in which you usually listen to a car stereo. Does the MS-8 have the ability to take into account the additional problems of engine and road noise? Sadly, even after $300 in dynamat and luxury liner pro my Tacoma still gets tons of noise (around 70db) through the windows at freeway speeds.


it doesn't matter if you are moving, stationary, engine on or off. those things affect what you as a human hear but they do not change the tuning or setup needs of the audio system. you don't change crossover points when the ac is on. the time alignment needs are the same if the engine is running or not. no matter what happens (short of adding more people to the interior) the sound waves will still bounce off the same points inside the car.

i'm pretty sure the manual says to run the setup parked in a quite place with the engine off though.


----------



## Beato

*Re: JBL's MS-8 processor! connecting to AUX in*

Searching this question has still left me confused. I’m trying to figuring out how to drive (increase) the output from an ipod/mp3 player into the MS8 AUX in while maintaining the best SQ. I have been using my stock HU’s AUX and works fine but would like avoid all the stock HU voodoo for now. Anyway, my finding thus far point to this:

-	Purchase a JBL CL_RLC to which the ipod would plug into and the out's of the CL_RLC to the MS8. This would provide the signal boost needed along with volume control. (FWIW - currently have a HD-RLC mounted on the dash for SUB control. Its connected to amp )

-	As for SQ, using the ipods doc connection OR the headphone jack are basically the same from what I have read. But then the more I read => info overload, what method bypasses the internal DSP or whatever. Wish there was a sticky on this.

-	Recommend method to charge ipod with the above in place

-	My setup => Stock HU > MS8 > JL XD700/5. Running passive via Focal xovers

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## 14642

I don't understand why you don't think you have enough signal from the iPod. The Aux inputs should be fine and there's a level control for the Aux in the system levels menu.


----------



## quietfly

Andy, 
I just notices a curious thing about my MS-8. 
We've had a pretty cold stretch here and when my car is parked in the car port outside it's been taking my MS-8 about 10 mins to turn on. (my radio is turning on as soon as i turn the key) if i park my car in the garage, which is not heated but is insulated so it does not reach really cold temps (stays around 50) it starts instantly. is this normal?


----------



## Beato

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I don't understand why you don't think you have enough signal from the iPod. The Aux inputs should be fine and there's a level control for the Aux in the system levels menu.


Well maybe it’s just me and let me also state that I’m attempting to plan out an ipod classic purchase and how to integrate it. Sooo, I used my daughters ipod touch (latest version) and hooked up a standard headphone to two RCA cable to the MS8 to test. Selected AUX as the source, turned up the ipod about ¾ and adjusted the MS8 > input level > volume pretty high. At that point it seemed fairly weak as far as loudness. 

Now maybe the touch and the classic (don’t have access to one) have different signal levels - I was assuming they would be about the same. Maybe that’s a mistake on my part and or I’m just missing something here. I’ll try again just to reaffirm. 

I use a ZEN X-Fi mainly and wanted to switch to ipod (thus my “test”) not because the ZEN is bad, quite the contrary, but because everything darn thing is built around ipod (integration kits, interfaces et al).

After reading so many threads, it’s hard to keep what’s what and I was under the impression that due to the ipod / most mp3 players output level (something like 1v) isn’t enough for anything other than say headphones. Not so good in a AUX “in” application and thus a line driver or a small external amp is recommended?


----------



## quietfly

Beato said:


> Well maybe it’s just me and let me also state that I’m attempting to plan out an ipod classic purchase and how to integrate it. Sooo, I used my daughters ipod touch (latest version) and hooked up a standard headphone to two RCA cable to the MS8 to test. Selected AUX as the source, turned up the ipod about ¾ and adjusted the MS8 > input level > volume pretty high. At that point it seemed fairly weak as far as loudness.
> 
> Now maybe the touch and the classic (don’t have access to one) have different signal levels - I was assuming they would be about the same. Maybe that’s a mistake on my part and or I’m just missing something here. I’ll try again just to reaffirm.
> 
> I use a ZEN X-Fi mainly and wanted to switch to ipod (thus my “test”) not because the ZEN is bad, quite the contrary, but because everything darn thing is built around ipod (integration kits, interfaces et al).
> 
> After reading so many threads, it’s hard to keep what’s what and I was under the impression that due to the ipod / most mp3 players output level (something like 1v) isn’t enough for anything other than say headphones. Not so good in a AUX “in” application and thus a line driver or a small external amp is recommended?


honestly i've never had an issue with an Ipod or Andriod, or even the cheapy zen driving the Aux inputs. there is an AUX in level control if you feel the signal needs gain. Make sure your level on the ipod or whatever input device is maxed out, i'm fairly certain that it will not be enough to clip the MS-8's inputs. the Unity gain should allow for it to give you a 1:1 ratio of into out, so if your ipod pushes 1.45 volts maxed out. then that's what you will have coming out of the MS-8 before Aux input adjustment.


----------



## quietfly

Beato said:


> ..... I used my daughters ipod touch (latest version) and hooked up a standard headphone to two RCA cable to the MS8 to test. Selected AUX as the source, turned up the ipod about ¾ and adjusted the MS8 > input level > volume pretty high. At that point it seemed fairly weak as far as loudness.......


Just to re emphasize , *you can safely turn the ipod volume up to max*, and it will not cause the MS-8 inputs to clip. at full blast the ipod's output from the headphone jack is well below what it will take the MS-8 to clip. With systems like this you want to use the MS-8 vol to control the overall vol. not the ipod, or what ever source.


----------



## t3sn4f2

quietfly said:


> Just to re emphasize , *you can safely turn the ipod volume up to max*, and it will not cause the MS-8 inputs to clip. at full blast the ipod's output from the headphone jack is well below what it will take the MS-8 to clip. With systems like this you want to use the MS-8 vol to control the overall vol. not the ipod, or what ever source.


xxxx2


----------



## jon302v8

I'm still having EQ problems. Every calibration is fairly consistent. Imaging is great but EQ is way off. Sub is way too high, there is missing midbass (100-200Hz), and a couple more nulls at 3KHz and 8KHz.

Using TrueRTA I can manually adjust system levels and the EQ to get a very good sounding system. I have to set the sub output all the way down and then further cut the sub range in the EQ. I have to boost 100-200Hz all the way up +10db. I also have to boost 3K and 8K almost to the max.

I have an active 2-way + sub. Xovers set to 30/80/3500. I am running the tweeters off the MS-8, mids + sub run off a JL HD600/4.

During calibration after xover setup I used TrueRTA + the MS-8 test noises to balance the amp gain on the mids to make it roughly match the internal amp driving the tweeters. I've tried gains lower and higher than the balance point with similar results.

I've tried calibration at levels ranging from -50db (barely audible) all the way up. I tried reversing the polarity of the sub.

Any other suggestions?

Anybody else measure their default calibration with an RTA? Are you seeing a smooth curve?


----------



## kameraguy

jon302v8 said:


> Sub is way too high, there is missing midbass (100-200Hz), and a couple more nulls at 3KHz and 8KHz.


Hi,

I was also struggling with too much bass where I would have to drastically cut 20hz thru 63hz to eliminate a lot of low frequency rumble.

If this is what you are experiencing too, it sounds like your sub gain is too low. In my case, I found it hard to grasp what is an "acceptable" volume for the sub sweep, and there were many references to make sure you can't feel the sub during the sweep. 

In my calibrations, I was setting my sub gain a bit too low, where during the sweep the sub was audible, but drastically reduced in "volume" in comparison to all the other speaker sweeps.

The net result was a sub that was BOOMING loud.

After re-reading a few posts in this thread, and also the manual, I realized I was not thinking-thru what the MS-8 was doing. I "think" the reason why the sub was booming was because the MS-8 thought it had to "boost" the low frequency since it was barely audible during the sweep.

So I reset all my gains on my amp to about 2V (12 o-clock on my JBL XD 600/6) for all channels, including the sub, and calibrated for all seats.

Now the sub was playing very even (if a little too low). And the overall system balance seemed a LOT better compared to my previous attempts.

So see if that may be a factor for your tuning.

Regarding the holes for certain frequencies, I think that may be due to unpredictable cancellation due to how the cabin is responding to the speaker placement...I am also still seeing a few holes in my system too. From what Andy said, it's OK to boost a bit with the EQ if needed. So might want to give that a try too. Just remember to make sure the MS-8 volume is allowing enough overhead for the db boosts (ie: maybe set it between -10db to -6db given how much boost you'll be applying).


----------



## taibanl

After reading a lot of the threads forthe second time i too think there is too much emphasis on turning DOWN the sub. I think in some cases it may need to be turned UP for the sweeps, yet no one says this (nor has it been confirmed)


----------



## jon302v8

kameraguy said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was also struggling with too much bass where I would have to drastically cut 20hz thru 63hz to eliminate a lot of low frequency rumble.
> 
> If this is what you are experiencing too, it sounds like your sub gain is too low. In my case, I found it hard to grasp what is an "acceptable" volume for the sub sweep, and there were many references to make sure you can't feel the sub during the sweep.
> 
> In my calibrations, I was setting my sub gain a bit too low, where during the sweep the sub was audible, but drastically reduced in "volume" in comparison to all the other speaker sweeps.
> 
> The net result was a sub that was BOOMING loud.
> 
> After re-reading a few posts in this thread, and also the manual, I realized I was not thinking-thru what the MS-8 was doing. I "think" the reason why the sub was booming was because the MS-8 thought it had to "boost" the low frequency since it was barely audible during the sweep.
> 
> So I reset all my gains on my amp to about 2V (12 o-clock on my JBL XD 600/6) for all channels, including the sub, and calibrated for all seats.
> 
> Now the sub was playing very even (if a little too low). And the overall system balance seemed a LOT better compared to my previous attempts.
> 
> So see if that may be a factor for your tuning.
> 
> Regarding the holes for certain frequencies, I think that may be due to unpredictable cancellation due to how the cabin is responding to the speaker placement...I am also still seeing a few holes in my system too. From what Andy said, it's OK to boost a bit with the EQ if needed. So might want to give that a try too. Just remember to make sure the MS-8 volume is allowing enough overhead for the db boosts (ie: maybe set it between -10db to -6db given how much boost you'll be applying).



Thanks - it seems like we have similar experiences.

Tonight I will play with sub volume during sweeps. Previously I did set all the gains to 2V and calibrate at -40 to -20. However, I did not try changing the sub gain independently.

There is so much talk in the threads about the sub sweep being "heard but not felt". To me, the sub sweep has to be really quiet to not be felt. My sub is a 10" Dayton reference HF in a sealed stealthbox... so it's going to fall off pretty quick and not go down to 20 Hz. If the sweep is low enough that you don't feel 90-100 Hz, then 30-70Hz is going to be very quiet. I will try louder sweeps today.

One thing I forgot to mention is I went through the car and attacked every rattle and resonance near the sub frequencies. The car sounds better but it didn't seem to affect the calibration. Still a booming sub and no midbass.

I don't mind doing all the RTA and EQ tweaking work but it sort of defeats the purpose... I was looking to save a lot of time  I have another RS-8 on the bench waiting to go into a different car. Hopefully once I figure out the gotchas that one will be plug-in-play.

BTW, I am running the MS-8 volume at -12dB because of all the EQ boosting I had to do. This makes the system a little quiet so I increased the amp gain to compensate and recalibrated. Currently I might be as much as 1V sensitivity on the amps.


----------



## Beato

quietfly said:


> honestly i've never had an issue with an Ipod or Andriod, or even the cheapy zen driving the Aux inputs. there is an AUX in level control if you feel the signal needs gain. Make sure your level on the ipod or whatever input device is maxed out, i'm fairly certain that it will not be enough to clip the MS-8's inputs. the Unity gain should allow for it to give you a 1:1 ratio of into out, so if your ipod pushes 1.45 volts maxed out. then that's what you will have coming out of the MS-8 before Aux input adjustment.


Hmm…. Not sure why my results would be different, but I‘ll give it another try – thanks for the info  
Also, will the input level setting (on the display unit) indicate something => meaning if the AUX output level (on the display) is max’d (as well as the player) and the result is too little volume and or the opposite is true, would that have something to do with how AMP gain settings / calibration (level matching) was done? FWIW, my calibration / gain is working fine and have it dialed in pretty solid.



quietfly said:


> Just to re emphasize , *you can safely turn the ipod volume up to max*, and it will not cause the MS-8 inputs to clip. at full blast the ipod's output from the headphone jack is well below what it will take the MS-8 to clip. With systems like this you want to use the MS-8 vol to control the overall vol. not the ipod, or what ever source.


Again thanks, good to know.


----------



## aviator79

What is the gauge of the input wire harness for the MS-8?
I have to run wires from my Mazdaspeed6 HU to the JBL MS-8. I already have them cut and wired to RCAs. So I was going to unsolder them from the RCAs and solder them to speaker wires. All I have is 12g in wall monoprice speaker wire but I dont think that will be fune to try to solder to the 18?g HU wire. I need to pick up some wire so I need to know what to get.
Thanks


----------



## elerner61

18ga on the inputs, 16ga on the outs, from what I recall.


----------



## elerner61

With the cold weather upon us here in the Northeast, can anyone comment on how cold equipment (everything, including the calibration headphones) would affect calibration and sound quality? 

No pun intended, but I seem to notice that my MS-8 sounds warmer down low after it's been running a while. I think I did my last calibration before the system (everything) had warmed up a bit so I'm wonder if that might have an affect as well.

Thx.


----------



## hawkfan

elerner61 said:


> 18ga on the inputs, 16ga on the outs, from what I recall.


I believe this is true for all except the turn on lead(blue) which seemed to be a 20-22awg wire. I have a 6 with Bose and installed the MS-8 over the weekend. I would have soldered if it was doable without removing the seat. But there's not much room and not enough slack in that Bose wiring harness even with the seat all the way forward so I cut and crimped the turn on lead and the outputs from the Bose HU. Works fine.


----------



## aviator79

hawkfan said:


> I believe this is true for all except the turn on lead(blue) which seemed to be a 20-22awg wire. I have a 6 with Bose and installed the MS-8 over the weekend. I would have soldered if it was doable without removing the seat. But there's not much room and not enough slack in that Bose wiring harness even with the seat all the way forward so I cut and crimped the turn on lead and the outputs from the Bose HU. Works fine.


I will probably remove the seat tonight. 4 bolts is all so its easy to come out. I dont remember if I left the wiring for the bose amp. If so I may resolder the wires in the HU and use them so solder to the MS-8. I was happy to learn today that the MS-8 has a remote out as the OEM hu remote out is just ACC ad was causing some problems. I wish I had some decent 18g wire as it will be easier to solder the harness to new wire so I may just pick some up if sears has anything decent. PITA.


----------



## taibanl

MS-8 Owners Manual updated January 05, 2012, anyone know why?


----------



## hawkfan

aviator79 said:


> I will probably remove the seat tonight. 4 bolts is all so its easy to come out. I dont remember if I left the wiring for the bose amp. If so I may resolder the wires in the HU and use them so solder to the MS-8. * I was happy to learn today that the MS-8 has a remote out as the OEM hu remote out is just ACC ad was causing some problems*. I wish I had some decent 18g wire as it will be easier to solder the harness to new wire so I may just pick some up if sears has anything decent. PITA.


The MS-8 does indeed have a remote out but it also needs the remote in to 'turn itself on'. I remember reading something about an input signal sensing turn on feature, but I thought that was with high/speaker level inputs only. At least, that's how I understood the pdf manual. And yes, the remote to the Bose amp is indeed ACC (I found that out when I turned the Bose HU off and the MS-8 display and MS-8 were still up and running). That kinda sucks, but I don't remember the MS-8 being able to turn on with just a *low* level signal from a HU, so you may be stuck with ACC turn on only. If you get it to _reliably_ work with just the low level signal from the Bose HU, please let me know.


----------



## 14642

taibanl said:


> MS-8 Owners Manual updated January 05, 2012, anyone know why?


Not me, and if there was a substantive change, I would have written it.


----------



## 14642

hawkfan said:


> The MS-8 does indeed have a remote out but it also needs the remote in to 'turn itself on'. I remember reading something about an input signal sensing turn on feature, but I thought that was with high/speaker level inputs only. At least, that's how I understood the pdf manual. And yes, the remote to the Bose amp is indeed ACC (I found that out when I turned the Bose HU off and the MS-8 display and MS-8 were still up and running). That kinda sucks, but I don't remember the MS-8 being able to turn on with just a *low* level signal from a HU, so you may be stuck with ACC turn on only. If you get it to _reliably_ work with just the low level signal from the Bose HU, please let me know.


There's no signl sensing turn on in MS-8. Use acc or head unit remote out. Connect ALL other components to MS-8's remote out.


----------



## quietfly

quietfly said:


> Andy,
> I just notices a curious thing about my MS-8.
> We've had a pretty cold stretch here and when my car is parked in the car port outside it's been taking my MS-8 about 10 mins to turn on. (my radio is turning on as soon as i turn the key) if i park my car in the garage, which is not heated but is insulated so it does not reach really cold temps (stays around 50) it starts instantly. is this normal?



Hey Andy not sure if you saw my question.


----------



## taibanl

*Regarding the passive cross between mid bass and sub:*

Andy,

I have a good, great actually result (by ear) at present. But only now just realized that my sub is passively low passed at 24db slope while my mid basses are high passed at 12dB. Are there any considerations, specifically phase issues? Can I live with this?


----------



## 14642

quietfly said:


> Hey Andy not sure if you saw my question.


LCDs are notoriously bad in really cold weather. My guess is that the display is the issue. Try unplugging it to see if MS-8 comes on immediately.


----------



## 14642

taibanl said:


> *Regarding the passive cross between mid bass and sub:*
> 
> Andy,
> 
> I have a good, great actually result (by ear) at present. But only now just realized that my sub is passively low passed at 24db slope while my mid basses are high passed at 12dB. Are there any considerations, specifically phase issues? Can I live with this?


What do you mean by "passively low passed"? Are you using two coils and two caps after the amp to filter the sub and a cap and coil on the midbass speakers?


----------



## quietfly

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> LCDs are notoriously bad in really cold weather. My guess is that the display is the issue. Try unplugging it to see if MS-8 comes on immediately.




Thanks i'll try bringing my LCD in in the really cold weather.


----------



## taibanl

@ andy

Sorry; blonde moment

I meant to say they are hp and lp at their respective amp, not ms-8.


----------



## hawkfan

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> LCDs are notoriously bad in really cold weather. My guess is that the display is the issue. Try unplugging it to see if MS-8 comes on immediately.


Hi Andy. I'm a new MS-8 user(love it). While you're on the subject of the LCD display, are there any plans to offer a display with different color options in the future? I'm talking about the LCD itself, not the housing. I did a quick search for "colors" in this thread and didn't see this question asked before, so I figured it wouldn't hurt to at least ask?:blush:


----------



## taibanl

@ hawkfan, radarcontact posted a thread regarding changing the display color and at least one guy has been successful using phoot gels under the bezel to match the orange colors in a mini


----------



## .cakestar

taibanl said:


> @ hawkfan, radarcontact posted a thread regarding changing the display color and at least one guy has been successful using phoot gels under the bezel to match the orange colors in a mini


do you have a link to this post? I cant seem to find it. getting hard to weed through so many ms-8 threads


----------



## toolsong

I think this is the thread you're looking for 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...rade/116410-i-want-my-ms-8-display-red-3.html

I'll probably make mine BMW amber too


----------



## jon302v8

Andy,

Should I be able to use an RTA to show the MS-8's auto-EQ smoothing a frequency response?

I have some pictures that show my EQ problem. My time alignment has always been spot on and the EQ has always been off. I can crudely adjust with the 31 band but that seems like a band-aid. I'd like to take advantage of the MS-8 DSP magic 

Anyway, for this test I have only the right channel playing and an ECM8000 mic at my right ear position. The signal is the pink noise track on the IASCA SQ disc. The first picture shows the response with MS-8 processing disabled:










Now I would expect the MS-8 to cut below 50 Hz and then smooth out the rest of the curve. This is what I get instead:










The sub is always cranked and the rest of the curve is as jagged as ever. Audibly I especially notice the midbass hole.

I have tried all kinds of sweep volumes (-55 to -15) and all kinds of amp gain balancing. The results are very consistent (except at the extreme sweep volume ranges). So consistent I thought the MS-8 mic was bad and calibrated with it outside the car. Of course then it sounded horrible 

My setup is 2-way front with sub. No center/side/rear. Crossovers at 30/80/3500. Tweeters are driven by the MS-8, rest driven by JL HD600/4.

Any thoughts? Or does this look normal for the MS-8? Am I measuring correctly?

Thanks for any help!


----------



## taibanl

^ 
20 watts to tweeters and 150w to the rest?


----------



## pionkej

Andy-

I got a hypothetical that I haven't seen pop up. Let's say we have the front door speaker locations open because all the left and right speakers are in kicks, pillars, or dash...

...would putting the "side-fill" speakers in the front doors do anything for improving width and ambiance without hurting anything? 

My thought is that with the delay, the lower levels, common information removed, and no real LF content, it would give a sense of a wider stage without pulling the image down or smearing the centered information. I will be running a braxial speaker (JBL 500GTi) and I ask because I can either run them here or in the rear doors. To me, the rear door speaker location is low, forward, and blocked by the front seats which, in turn, leads to issues with any information above 3khz or so getting to the listener(s). Normally, I would try it just to see, but since this is in my wife's car, and our primary vehicle, I would prefer to not have any down time experimenting with something like this and so I'm here asking for opinions/thoughts.


----------



## kameraguy

My apologies if I missed some tips on how to improve the following, 
I have spent months trying many suggestions from the various posts here, and I think I am about 90% there. 

I have Focal 165VB 2-way components up front (front 1-way, did not do active for tweeters, using their xovers) ch1+2
Focal equivalent coaxials in the rear (side speakers) ch3+4
custom sub enclosure (sealed) with a 10" JL (sub) ch7

No center

Speakers mounted in stock locations, sub is mounted in the trunk, box enclosure next to one side.

Amp is a JL XD 600/6 driving all speakers.

HU is a Kenwood DNX6160. I skipped the input signal calibration.

Car is a 2008 Subaru Forester (the last year SG station-wagon model for the USA)


After confirming my amp crossovers were defeated, input sensitivity for all channels were relatively matched with a rat shack SPL, calibrated at -30db with 24db slopes for front/sides, my imaging is very good (possibly great, but I have no frame of reference to what the MS-8 is capable, it just sounds good to me now), and my subwoofer boom is no longer an issue.

But I still can't seem to improve:

1) midbass response is barely there

2) bass time alignment is inconsistent from the front seats. With some tracks, bass is up front and sounds spot on. For other tracks, bass seems more rear-biased and not coherent with the music (IE: too slow at times).

For #1, I see there are some members still struggling with this too. Not sure if anyone has some suggestions that clearly worked for them.

For #2, wondering if anyone else has experienced this? I just don't know if this is due to my tune not being correct OR the result of how the MS-8 interprets some recordings?

I have tried the following to troubleshoot:

* performed a reset to factory defaults
* tuned with incremental crossover points for my front/sides in 10hz increments from 80hz thru 130hz
* confirmed my speaker levels when tuning must be good as there is no noticeable difference in volume if I turn processing on and off
* reversed phase of my sub and re-tuned
* calibrated with sweeps soft (-40db), to sweeps borderline loud (-20db)
* since I don't have a center, i'm running L7 off. My preference for seating position is "all". But even with L7 on, or with any other seat position, these two issues are still present.
* for the midbass, i can somewhat improve things by boosting the lacking frequencies with the EQ and sub/mid/bass levels via MS-8, but that seems like a work-around to a problem i'd like to fix, and even then, it still doesn't sound a great deal better.



if anyone has any insight, or can help me find a post(s) that could give me some good next steps, i'd greatly appreciate it. I can say my system sounds a ton better now than when I first got it, but I know there's still room for improvement. 

I am in the SF Bay Area. Wondering if anyone else has an MS-8 in the area that is DIALED? For me, it's been a difficult process to get things sounding right without a frame of reference. Would love to hear what things "should" sound like....

Edit: I just found this from Andy in the Tips and Tricks thread:

"One thing is for certain, if the sweeps are too loud, what you've described as no midbass will certainly be the case. If the first set of sweeps are too loud, there won't be a center image. The first set of sweeps set the channel delays. If the second set of sweeps are too loud, the system won't EQ properly. So, if you have a good center image, that indicates that the first set of sweeps (without the subwoofer) were at an appropriate level. If you have a good center image and a bad EQ, then the subwoofer sweep is too loud. This is a common mistake, because the sweeps shouldn't be loud at all. "

I will try playing with the following to see if it helps:
1) calibrate with the sweeps at lower volumes to see if it helps midbass
2) gradually reduce the subwoofer gain to see if the EQ improves


----------



## 14642

jon302v8 said:


> Andy,
> 
> Should I be able to use an RTA to show the MS-8's auto-EQ smoothing a frequency response?
> 
> I have some pictures that show my EQ problem. My time alignment has always been spot on and the EQ has always been off. I can crudely adjust with the 31 band but that seems like a band-aid. I'd like to take advantage of the MS-8 DSP magic
> 
> Anyway, for this test I have only the right channel playing and an ECM8000 mic at my right ear position. The signal is the pink noise track on the IASCA SQ disc. The first picture shows the response with MS-8 processing disabled:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I would expect the MS-8 to cut below 50 Hz and then smooth out the rest of the curve. This is what I get instead:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The sub is always cranked and the rest of the curve is as jagged as ever. Audibly I especially notice the midbass hole.
> 
> I have tried all kinds of sweep volumes (-55 to -15) and all kinds of amp gain balancing. The results are very consistent (except at the extreme sweep volume ranges). So consistent I thought the MS-8 mic was bad and calibrated with it outside the car. Of course then it sounded horrible
> 
> My setup is 2-way front with sub. No center/side/rear. Crossovers at 30/80/3500. Tweeters are driven by the MS-8, rest driven by JL HD600/4.
> 
> Any thoughts? Or does this look normal for the MS-8? Am I measuring correctly?
> 
> Thanks for any help!


Try this:
Reverse the polarity of the sub and turn the gain on the sub amp up a little bit. Then recalibrate. msake sure the crossovers on the amp are as close to defeated as possible.

There's a big difference between a single mic measurement and the spatial average. The narrow peaks and dips at higher frequencies are mostly a result of the single mic measurement. high Q dips and peaks thsat appear wiht a single mic measurement shouldn't be boosted.


----------



## 14642

kameraguy said:


> My apologies if I missed some tips on how to improve the following,
> I have spent months trying many suggestions from the various posts here, and I think I am about 90% there.
> 
> I have Focal 165VB 2-way components up front (front 1-way, did not do active for tweeters, using their xovers) ch1+2
> Focal equivalent coaxials in the rear (side speakers) ch3+4
> custom sub enclosure (sealed) with a 10" JL (sub) ch7
> 
> No center
> 
> Speakers mounted in stock locations, sub is mounted in the trunk, box enclosure next to one side.
> 
> Amp is a JL XD 600/6 driving all speakers.
> 
> HU is a Kenwood DNX6160. I skipped the input signal calibration.
> 
> Car is a 2008 Subaru Forester (the last year SG station-wagon model for the USA)
> 
> 
> After confirming my amp crossovers were defeated, input sensitivity for all channels were relatively matched with a rat shack SPL, calibrated at -30db with 24db slopes for front/sides, my imaging is very good (possibly great, but I have no frame of reference to what the MS-8 is capable, it just sounds good to me now), and my subwoofer boom is no longer an issue.
> 
> But I still can't seem to improve:
> 
> 1) midbass response is barely there
> 
> 2) bass time alignment is inconsistent from the front seats. With some tracks, bass is up front and sounds spot on. For other tracks, bass seems more rear-biased and not coherent with the music (IE: too slow at times).
> 
> For #1, I see there are some members still struggling with this too. Not sure if anyone has some suggestions that clearly worked for them.
> 
> For #2, wondering if anyone else has experienced this? I just don't know if this is due to my tune not being correct OR the result of how the MS-8 interprets some recordings?
> 
> I have tried the following to troubleshoot:
> 
> * performed a reset to factory defaults
> * tuned with incremental crossover points for my front/sides in 10hz increments from 80hz thru 130hz
> * confirmed my speaker levels when tuning must be good as there is no noticeable difference in volume if I turn processing on and off
> * reversed phase of my sub and re-tuned
> * calibrated with sweeps soft (-40db), to sweeps borderline loud (-20db)
> * since I don't have a center, i'm running L7 off. My preference for seating position is "all". But even with L7 on, or with any other seat position, these two issues are still present.
> * for the midbass, i can somewhat improve things by boosting the lacking frequencies with the EQ and sub/mid/bass levels via MS-8, but that seems like a work-around to a problem i'd like to fix, and even then, it still doesn't sound a great deal better.
> 
> 
> 
> if anyone has any insight, or can help me find a post(s) that could give me some good next steps, i'd greatly appreciate it. I can say my system sounds a ton better now than when I first got it, but I know there's still room for improvement.
> 
> I am in the SF Bay Area. Wondering if anyone else has an MS-8 in the area that is DIALED? For me, it's been a difficult process to get things sounding right without a frame of reference. Would love to hear what things "should" sound like....
> 
> Edit: I just found this from Andy in the Tips and Tricks thread:
> 
> "One thing is for certain, if the sweeps are too loud, what you've described as no midbass will certainly be the case. If the first set of sweeps are too loud, there won't be a center image. The first set of sweeps set the channel delays. If the second set of sweeps are too loud, the system won't EQ properly. So, if you have a good center image, that indicates that the first set of sweeps (without the subwoofer) were at an appropriate level. If you have a good center image and a bad EQ, then the subwoofer sweep is too loud. This is a common mistake, because the sweeps shouldn't be loud at all. "
> 
> I will try playing with the following to see if it helps:
> 1) calibrate with the sweeps at lower volumes to see if it helps midbass
> 2) gradually reduce the subwoofer gain to see if the EQ improves


Same as the last sugestion. Raise the sub gain a little so MS-8 will cut rather than boost the subs. make sure amp crossovers are off.


----------



## kaigoss69

You know Andy, based on what I have read here in the last year or two, and through my own experiences, I would say the majority of people who are having difficulties with the MS-8, either have their levels mismatched, and/or have the MS-8 volume control set incorrectly during the sweeps.

You know how during input setup the unit has to give you three OKs in order to proceed, why would it not be possible to do another step, but this time measuring the pre-calibration FR and volume through the mic, to ensure that the levels are matched and that the MS-8 volume control is set to where the unit _wants_ it?

Seems like the MS-8 is equipped with all the hardware to be able to do that, so implementing something like that would be possible through an easy SW update, no?

IDK, would seem like a no-brainer for me. You would spend much less time on these forums, your call center would get less calls, you would have fewer returns, and there would be many more happy customers.


----------



## pionkej

Andy, 

I typed my message (quoted below) without giving any clarification or reasoning behind this. I was looking a bit into Ambio setups and thought this COULD mimic something along those lines. The red herring is the amount of delay the MS8 would add and if it will add to the width and envelopment if placed up front...or destroy/smear the image L/C/R creates.

Below is my planned layout and the link I was viewing on Ambio.

MS8 Channels would be:

L and R subs (L and R "midbass" on MS8 2-way--Ch. 1&2)
L and R midbass/midrange (L and R "midrange" on MS8 2-way crossed over at amp--Ch. 3&4)
Center midbass and midrange (crossed actively on MS8--Ch. 5&6)
Side Fill (used up front and rear, bi-amped on 4 channel amp--Ch. 7&8)

Alternate Setup:

L and R midbass/midrange (MS8 1-way crossed over at amp--Ch. 1&2)
Center midbass and midrange (crossed actively on MS8--Ch. 3&4)**
Side Fill (used up front--Ch. 5&6)
Rear Fill (used in rear--Ch. 7&8)

**Center midbass would be run "full-range" and would be crossed at amp to subs ala Kaigoss workaround.










Ambiophonics Terminology 



pionkej said:


> Andy-
> 
> I got a hypothetical that I haven't seen pop up. Let's say we have the front door speaker locations open because all the left and right speakers are in kicks, pillars, or dash...
> 
> ...would putting the "side-fill" speakers in the front doors do anything for improving width and ambiance without hurting anything?
> 
> My thought is that with the delay, the lower levels, common information removed, and no real LF content, it would give a sense of a wider stage without pulling the image down or smearing the centered information. I will be running a braxial speaker (JBL 500GTi) and I ask because I can either run them here or in the rear doors. To me, the rear door speaker location is low, forward, and blocked by the front seats which, in turn, leads to issues with any information above 3khz or so getting to the listener(s). Normally, I would try it just to see, but since this is in my wife's car, and our primary vehicle, I would prefer to not have any down time experimenting with something like this and so I'm here asking for opinions/thoughts.


----------



## aviator79

So I am about to buy one. I worry that there have been enough of these that have had issues that I want to buy new from a authorized dealer. And I got it in my cart and can add a 4 year square trade warrantee for $77. I never buy warrantees, but I am thinking I should this time as it only has a 1-year manufactures warrantee and I don’t want to have it die in a year and SOL and out $492. Thoughts?


----------



## duro78

aviator79 said:


> So I am about to buy one. I worry that there have been enough of these that have had issues that I want to buy new from a authorized dealer. And I got it in my cart and can add a 4 year square trade warrantee for $77. I never buy warrantees, but I am thinking I should this time as it only has a 1-year manufactures warrantee and I don’t want to have it die in a year and SOL and out $492. Thoughts?


Like you i never buy warranties imo if a company stands by there product they should back it at no cost to the consumer. Companys make billions a year on warranties opposed to money lost for reparing products through warranty service. I got a price of $490 from sonic and $460 from a non authorized seller 30 day manufacturer warranty. I went with the cheaper one and after I thought about it I was thinking to myself why the hell did I cheap out $30 for an item that cost almost $500. I received the unit opened the boxed the front was all scratched up ( not the surface blemishes some speak of) deep scratches. The paint on the mounting feet was worn and scratches on the display. The unit had obviously been used, it seemed to be a refurbished unit that jbl offers. I thought I was screwed, I emailed the seller and he messaged me minutes later apologetic for the mishap and had a tracking # for a new unit within a few hours. Although it worked out I'm still kicking myself for not spending the extra coin going with sonic. IMO a one year from an authorized dealer is good enough.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## Beato

quietfly said:


> Thanks i'll try bringing my LCD in in the really cold weather.


Maybe I'm mistaken here, but the display hasn't anything to do with whether or not MS8 turns on or off (therefore hearing anything), so bringing it inside when its cold really shouldn't matter here, no? Unless of course you had source set to AUX and the volume was down and couldn't access the display etc..

It's -10 today (thats COLD, not 50 ) and it took about 10min before the display turned on as well and thus nothing coming out of the speakers during that time (defaulted to radio, no AUX etc..) So I'm assuming in my example, wouldn't matter if the display was plugged in or out, would still take about 5-10min to hear something, due to the cold. Just my guess. 

For the heck of it, I looked at lights on the amp + ms8 and the MS8's light was solid blue but my amp was flashing green light sequence - which the manual says its powering up. But it would repeat this and when the display was on, all was good. Not sure if this is normal or if its a combination w/ MS8 or whatever. When its this cold though, anything is possible.


----------



## aviator79

duro78 said:


> Like you i never buy warranties imo if a company stands by there product they should back it at no cost to the consumer. Companys make billions a year on warranties opposed to money lost for reparing products through warranty service. I got a price of $490 from sonic and $460 from a non authorized seller 30 day manufacturer warranty. I went with the cheaper one and after I thought about it I was thinking to myself why the hell did I cheap out $30 for an item that cost almost $500. I received the unit opened the boxed the front was all scratched up ( not the surface blemishes some speak of) deep scratches. The paint on the mounting feet was worn and scratches on the display. The unit had obviously been used, it seemed to be a refurbished unit that jbl offers. I thought I was screwed, I emailed the seller and he messaged me minutes later apologetic for the mishap and had a tracking # for a new unit within a few hours. Although it worked out I'm still kicking myself for not spending the extra coin going with sonic. IMO a one year from an authorized dealer is good enough.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk



God, why are the posts so wide on this topic!
Ya, I bought all my amps used. Subs are used too so im usually not too worried. I got my Dynaudio 362s from someone that had a friend that was a dealer so I got a crazy deal on those new and there not fakes. Its only the fact that it seems there have been some bad MS-8s.

So, I can get one from amazon for the $534 but I have a $100 credit, or I can get it from sonic for $492. I figure I can use the amazon credit for something else. I just wish they would list it for $490 as it would be sweet to get it for $390 with my $100 credit. Or I could wait and see if the price comes down. They have dropped in the past but who knows if or when this will happen:
JBL MS-8 MS Series Digital Processor | Amazon price tracker / tracking, Amazon price history charts, Amazon price watches, Amazon price drop alerts | camelcamelcamel.com

I guess I should be fine with just one year like you said. I read one post of someone that had one flake out on him (maybe was still within the year warranty) but most bad units I see posts about were DOAs. So I will pass on the warranty. Was going to pick up this 18g OFC wire to extend the wires from my HU to the MS-8:
Hitron SPW18-25 25 ft. of 18 Gauge OFC Speaker Wire
its not CCA so it should be fine...I think.

Purchased...yay the final peice of the puzzle.


----------



## jon302v8

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Try this:
> Reverse the polarity of the sub and turn the gain on the sub amp up a little bit. Then recalibrate. msake sure the crossovers on the amp are as close to defeated as possible.
> 
> There's a big difference between a single mic measurement and the spatial average. The narrow peaks and dips at higher frequencies are mostly a result of the single mic measurement. high Q dips and peaks thsat appear wiht a single mic measurement shouldn't be boosted.


Andy,

I turned up the sub gain and reversed the polarity - the story remains the same. The MS-8 boosts the (already high) sub a little bit and cuts the midbass.

I tried this with normal sub polarity and had same result.

I tried normal/reverse polarity with the sub gain lowered back to a balanced level even with the mids and the MS-8 boosted the sub _a_lot_ and still cut midbass.

I captured RTA snapshots for all of these if you are interested.

It seems no matter what I do the MS-8 still shoots for a target curve with lots of sub and no midbass.

I've tried a ton of gain balancing and phase swapping. I even tried recalibrate with my head in one position, head moved away from the window/roof, etc. Of course I tried many different sweep volumes.

I have another MS-8 unopened on the bench but I'm hesitant to open it in case I get fed up with these things and want to return or sell them. Do you think it could be the mic or the unit? I can swap either.

Thanks for any help!


----------



## duro78

jon302v8 said:


> Andy,
> 
> I turned up the sub gain and reversed the polarity - the story remains the same. The MS-8 boosts the (already high) sub a little bit and cuts the midbass.
> 
> I tried this with normal sub polarity and had same result.
> 
> I tried normal/reverse polarity with the sub gain lowered back to a balanced level even with the mids and the MS-8 boosted the sub _a_lot_ and still cut midbass.
> 
> I captured RTA snapshots for all of these if you are interested.
> 
> It seems no matter what I do the MS-8 still shoots for a target curve with lots of sub and no midbass.
> 
> I've tried a ton of gain balancing and phase swapping. I even tried recalibrate with my head in one position, head moved away from the window/roof, etc. Of course I tried many different sweep volumes.
> 
> I have another MS-8 unopened on the bench but I'm hesitant to open it in case I get fed up with these things and want to return or sell them. Do you think it could be the mic or the unit? I can swap either.
> 
> Thanks for any help!


Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it decided on that this was a software issue and can be resolved with one of two solutions. Worked for me.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## kameraguy

duro78 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it decided on that this was a software issue and can be resolved with one of two solutions. Worked for me.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Can you please elaborate on what was done via sw to fix your issue?


----------



## kameraguy

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Same as the last sugestion. Raise the sub gain a little so MS-8 will cut rather than boost the subs. make sure amp crossovers are off.


Thanks Andy, will try again tonight...


----------



## ef8crxman

PLEASE HELP!!!!

I am so frustrated right now. Got some good progress done today on the system install. Hooked everything up and ran the setup for the ms-8 and got signal ok level low. I am running Zapco amps so I used the SLDIN t.f adapter with a 12 symbilink to rca adapter. I boosted the SLDIN to +6db with the same results. It works ok with a extra set of rca's that I tried.

Any thoughts of why the symbilink cable will not work? 

Learned something else tonight that the DPN software will not work with Window 7.


----------



## duro78

kameraguy said:


> Can you please elaborate on what was done via sw to fix your issue?


Option 1 is setting it up as a 3way instead of 2way plus sub. So put none for sub and set your crossover points as normal. During channel assignment l and r low will work as your sub.

Option 2. Is called the k****** method can't think of the name but its actually in this thread. Maybe someone will chime in. 

I used option 1 and works great but ill try and find the info for opt. 2

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## jon302v8

duro78 said:


> Option 1 is setting it up as a 3way instead of 2way plus sub. So put none for sub and set your crossover points as normal. During channel assignment l and r low will work as your sub.


Interesting.

So should I feed both L and R low into the L+R inputs of an amp in bridge mode to drive a single sub?

Or should I pick one channel and use a Y cable?

Thanks!


----------



## Hernan

jon302v8 said:


> Thanks for any help!



Jon, I had similar issues.

Reset the unit and turn you mids gain down.
Set this gain at the low side. 

For troubleshooting all gains down is a good start.

Other test is setting a 2 way without sub and see what happens.

Good luck, the ms8 is a great tool !!


----------



## duro78

jon302v8 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> So should I feed both L and R low into the L+R inputs of an amp in bridge mode to drive a single sub?
> 
> Or should I pick one channel and use a Y cable?
> 
> Thanks!


I assume you were running a 2 way plus sub. You don't have to change any wiring on either unit, all your doing is bypassing sub channels and using the low in a 3 way instead. Your still gonna have 2ch into ms8 and 6ch out to amps. No rewiring necessary since you can configure the ch's to any driver via ms8

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## duro78

Just found it, its the kaigoss method. Just do a search, I'm on my phone so copy and pasting is pita.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## duro78

A question for the more knowledgeable ms8 users. Instead of using the kaigoss method of using the amps crossover wouldn't it be better to just use the crossovers on the deck. IMO a person would have more adjustability in the listening position and have more ability for better blending. 

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----------



## jon302v8

For the other newbies like me, here is the kaigoss midbass workaround:

MS-8 FAQ post 86

It makes sense. I have plenty of extra channels so tonight I will try Andy's 3-way solution first. My amp is hard to reach - the less messing with amp settings the better!

Thanks for the tip duro78! There is so much information it is hard to digest it all...


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## duro78

No problem just passing on the knowledge, once you get everything inline the results are amazing. IMO its actually better doing it from your deck, its easier getting it just right sitting in the drivers seat. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## taibanl

duro78 said:


> A question for the more knowledgeable ms8 users. Instead of using the kaigoss method of using the amps crossover wouldn't it be better to just use the crossovers on the deck. IMO a person would have more adjustability in the listening position and have more ability for better blending.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Using the sub channel results in boomy bass no midbass. 

You don't want to put the sub on its own channel (e.g. as a three way in the front stage) because you don't want it separately time aligned.

Using the single channel for midbass and sub bass allows the ms-8 to time align the midbass driver and the sub just rides on that.


----------



## jon302v8

jon302v8 said:


> For the other newbies like me, here is the kaigoss midbass workaround:
> 
> MS-8 FAQ post 86
> 
> It makes sense. I have plenty of extra channels so tonight I will try Andy's 3-way solution first. My amp is hard to reach - the less messing with amp settings the better!
> 
> Thanks for the tip duro78! There is so much information it is hard to digest it all...



SUCCESS! Sub as low drivers in a 3-way worked the first time! Wow what a difference. Really sounds great.


----------



## taibanl

jon302v8 said:


> SUCCESS! Sub as low drivers in a 3-way worked the first time! Wow what a difference. Really sounds great.


Andy.

So many cases of this/ similar work arounds fixing this issue.

*You've got to, got to, got to fix this* with firmware. In the meantime, your customer satisfaction, and inevitably your sales will suffer.

I have gone from being quite the skeptic, to quite the believer with your product. Its capabilities are simply amazing. My vehicle sounds amazing. But it took too much effort.

In an earlier post you wrote:



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The lesson I learned in developing MS-8 is that there are basically two kinds of audio nuts--those who love to listen and those who love to tinker. This site is for audio nuts, not regular Joes. In order to build a great product for you guys, *I have to make it appeal to regular Joes* too, because there aren't enough audio nuts.


...by the same token, those regular Joes need to be able to achieve results with this product (consistently). If I hadn't found this site, and all of the success stories, I would be a bitter, unhappy MS-8 owner and I would be steering everyone on e90post away from it. Think of all the guys who simply gave up before they put in the number of hours to get results. For every one of them, there're two friends that represent lost MS-8 sales.


----------



## kameraguy

Andy/All, 

Just want to say thank you. After all the tips, I think I finally got the MS-8 to do it's thing. On top of everything else i've done, fiddling with the subwoofer gain as Andy most recently suggested finally yielded results in my case. I knew it once I heard the most amazing vocal reproduction of my reference album Bittersweet by David Rhodes (B&W Society of Sound).

I was quite simply stunned at the clarity and depth of the presentation as each track played. Everything was just well balanced and natural. Mids are now there. Bass is controlled, tight, coherent, up front. 

For my preference, just needed to ever-so slightly increase the treble, and a slight reduction in mid via the tone control. EQ remained flat. A much more desirable situation than the drastic cuts and boost from previous attempts.

I'm quite content with the "all" seat position, L7 off (no center for my install). The sound is quite amazing in all seating positions. Especially the rear middle!

My car is now like the most awesome set of headphones...I now hear subtle things in recordings that I thought only a great pair of headphones could reveal.

This is what I was hoping for with the MS-8.

If things could be made even more foolproof with a FW update as suggested above, that would be great. But I'm just happy to have finally reached the goal. I can only imagine how much better a center would bring. Maybe later down the road.


----------



## slinger1

ok so i my MS8 will be here monday.........I have been reading lots of post and need some advice on how to wire it up....Heres what im planing on..please tell me if it will work or if it will work better another way....2009 f150 crewcab..Focal comps. on all 4 doors (seperate mids/tweets)...off RF P400x4...also 2 RE audio subs on a 3000.1 amp and Pioneer 4200 Headunit...

From the headunit (pioneer 4200) to the MS8 with just the front left and right outputs...

Then from MS8 to Rockford p400x4 with 4 channels for two front door mids and rear doors (mids and tweets) ..they will be ran passive through focal crossovers..
And from MS8 to RE audio 3000x1 with 1 channel for subs 
Then the tweets in front doors off the MS8 amp 2 channels...

Thats 7 channels used and leaves 1 for addition of center speaker someday...


what do ya think??


----------



## nineball

slinger1 said:


> ok so i my MS8 will be here monday.........I have been reading lots of post and need some advice on how to wire it up....Heres what im planing on..please tell me if it will work or if it will work better another way....2009 f150 crewcab..Focal comps. on all 4 doors (seperate mids/tweets)...off RF P400x4...also 2 RE audio subs on a 3000.1 amp and Pioneer 4200 Headunit...
> 
> From the headunit (pioneer 4200) to the MS8 with just the front left and right outputs...
> 
> Then from MS8 to Rockford p400x4 with 4 channels for two front door mids and rear doors (mids and tweets) ..they will be ran passive through focal crossovers..
> And from MS8 to RE audio 3000x1 with 1 channel for subs
> Then the tweets in front doors off the MS8 amp 2 channels...
> 
> Thats 7 channels used and leaves 1 for addition of center speaker someday...
> 
> 
> what do ya think??


i would run the tweets and the mids off the amp and let the ms-8 power the rear fill.


----------



## nineball

> Andy Wehmeyer:
> 
> For those of you who have an extra channel, you can also map your subwoofer to the front low (in a 2-or 3-way front sytem) and that will treat the subs as fronts and bypass the level matching



anyone come up with a work-around when attempting this method with a single sub?


----------



## jon302v8

nineball said:


> anyone come up with a work-around when attempting this method with a single sub?


I use it with a single sub. I drive my sub with a bridged pair of amp channels. The 3-way low from front L and R feed the bridged pair.


----------



## slinger1

i have 2 subs on a mono amp now fed from Headunit with 2 rca's...(red/white)..when i install the ms8 i remove the rca's coming from headunit to sub amp and run just 1 rca from ms8 to my amp for subs??or do i use 2 channels from ms8 to my mono amp and make 1 sub bass and 1 mid bass? or just 1 channel for both to the amp/subs....the more i read the more im confused.....I have also yet to find a shop in my area (Kansas City Mo.) that has installed the Ms-8 so i will be attempting the install myself..


----------



## 14642

slinger1 said:


> i have 2 subs on a mono amp now fed from Headunit with 2 rca's...(red/white)..when i install the ms8 i remove the rca's coming from headunit to sub amp and run just 1 rca from ms8 to my amp for subs??or do i use 2 channels from ms8 to my mono amp and make 1 sub bass and 1 mid bass? or just 1 channel for both to the amp/subs....the more i read the more im confused.....I have also yet to find a shop in my area (Kansas City Mo.) that has installed the Ms-8 so i will be attempting the install myself..


 
If you want to run this supposed "workaround" from the start, then you'd use two output channels of MS-8 to feed the mono amp. When you get to the menu for choosing the "number" of subs, you'd choose "none". Then, for Front, you would identify front as "2-way" and assign the sub channels as "Front Low" and the front speakers as "Front High". Then, choose something like 80Hz as the crossover. 

FWIW, I've set up many MS-8s and will agree that OCCASIONALLY, the level matching between the sub and the front channels isn't right the first time. I'm working on that, but that's a different discussion entirely. In EVERY case where the level matching has created a lack of midbass and too much bass, I've been able to solve it by adjusting the sub amp gain UP if there's too much bass and DOWN if there's too little. This may seem counterintuitive, but it works. 

Here's why: MS-8 uses 50-80 Hz to figure out the level of the bass. It uses 80-300 to figure out the level of the midbass-midrange. Then, it adjusts the output level of the channels. Then, it EQs the combination of channels. If your sub crossover is set close to the 50Hz spot and the response of your subwoofer has a giant peak between 50 and 80Hz which is common for small seaed boxes, then MS-8 will reduce the level of the channel. this can result in too little bass. If your subwoofer's response has a big peak at 40Hz, then MS-8 will not reduce the level because most of that peak is outside the band of frequencies it checks. That can result in too much bass. 

Similarly, if your midbass drivers have a HUGE peak in the response betwen 80 and 300, then MS-8 will reduce the level of those channels. This is the problem in BMWs with underseat woofers and an additional subwoofer--especially if the subwoofer is in the trunk--the seat and the metal wall filter out much of the midbass from the sub and te midbass speakers are super loud in the 80-300Hz region. The Kaigoss Method simply eliminates level matching between sub and midbass and uses only EQ to tune the bass. 

Identifying the subwoofer channels as front low, does the same thing. Eliminates the level matching part of the subwoofer algorithm. 

So, the skinny here is that MS-8's level matching works GREAT under some conditions and not so well under others. The key (until I can get something done in software--which won't be in the next few weeks) is to do a little work in understanding what situation your system presents to MS-8's algorithm. 

First, think about the kind of sub you have--small sealed or ported? Choose 80Hz as the crossover and run the autotune. If your box is small and sealed and you don't hear enough bass, turn the gain of the sub amp DOWN so MS-8 will increase the level of the channel and boost using the EQ. If you have a ported box or big midbass drivers or both, and you don't hear enough midbass and too much bass, turn the gain of the sub amp UP and the midbass amp DOWN down and recalibrate. Once you get to a point where there aren't any huge peaks or dips that you can hear (this will be obvious and one of those "light bulb moments") then use the 31 band EQ to fine tune to your preference. 

The midbass region, let's call it 50-500Hz in a car is the most problematic of all. There are a thousand myths about why and about what has to be done to get good midbass and a thousand opinions about how much midbass is right. Regarding MS-8 and the myths: It's very difficult to build an algorithm that can reliably deal with +/- 40dB peaks and dips in the responses between speakers driven by separate channels in this region. MS-8 does work, just not always right the first time depending on your system. Regarding the opinions: MS-8 provides an EQ (31-band) that will allow you to fine tune. It isn't a band-aid. It's an admission that the target curve doesn't make everyone happy. MECA and IASCA competitors are encouraged to boost the midbass for competition.

When I was in Indonesia last month, I listened to thirty or so cars with MS-8. Some had sealed boxes and some had vented boxes. Some of the owners had use the 31-band EQ to tune the midbass and some hadn't. EVERY car had bass impact from the front. Every car had smooth and natural sounding midbass. All of the cars imaged really well and all sounded similar. None were BMWs with woofers under the seats, though. 

I guess the point of my rambling here is that, unfortunately, a little tuning and experimentation may be required. I think we've established that in BMWs with the woofers under the seats, the Kaigoss method is more reliable and a bit easier than the standard method. I think we've also begun to understand why that's the case. Since we're begining to understand why, then we have a basis upon which to determine whether that method should be impelemented in other cases too, thanks to all of the contributors here and because I read your posts, take them seriously, think about them and attempt to understand what they mean and use them to provide what I hope is useful feedback.

Believe me, if I still had my team of engineers that developed this thing, firmware updates would be quicker than they are now. I'm not going to explain that in detail. I'll just try my best to help all of you with the tools I have and continue to try to get the rest of the tools I need.


----------



## jon302v8

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ...thanks to all of the contributors here and because I read your posts, take them seriously, think about them and attempt to understand what they mean and use them to provide what I hope is useful feedback.
> 
> Believe me, if I still had my team of engineers that developed this thing, firmware updates would be quicker than they are now. I'm not going to explain that in detail. I'll just try my best to help all of you with the tools I have and continue to try to get the rest of the tools I need.


Thanks Andy. We appreciate the support and insight.

Honestly I'm amazed at what the MS-8 can do given the horrible starting point (things like severely off axis midwoofers firing at each other).

I've purchased two MS-8's and recommended them to my non-tinkerer audiophile friends.

BTW, I apologize for the EQ "band-aid" comment. It's just when I had the level settings and EQ pegged at min and max for various items it took away the ability to just "draw the desired curve" and it also interfered with quickly trying new crossover points, etc. since I had to RTA and EQ each time. Now that I have a more consistent stock result I can iterate without pain.

I hope you get the engineering staff back to continue the processor line.


----------



## quietfly

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ...thanks to all of the contributors here and because I read your posts, take them seriously, think about them and attempt to understand what they mean and use them to provide what I hope is useful feedback.
> 
> Believe me, if I still had my team of engineers that developed this thing, firmware updates would be quicker than they are now. I'm not going to explain that in detail. I'll just try my best to help all of you with the tools I have and continue to try to get the rest of the tools I need.


Andy, 
I have to say i am very grateful for the amount of insight you've given us in to the how's and why's of the MS-8. It's always nice to see product managers as passionate about their product as you are. Keep up the great work, it is Extremely appreciated.


----------



## slinger1

me too Andy.......Thanks for the detailed info.....I will follow the install manual first and see what i get.....But i feel more confident that even if it dosent meet expectations at first the support and info from this site will solve any issue that may come up.......


----------



## taibanl

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Believe me, if I still had my team of engineers that developed this thing, firmware updates would be quicker than they are now. I'm not going to explain that in detail. I'll just try my best to help all of you with the tools I have and continue to try to get the rest of the tools I need.


Thanks for the acknowledgment.

I had a great idea. I don't know if there is a $ issue involved, if so...

What about differentiating between firmware upGRADES and upDATES...I would be willing to pay ~200 for some of the features in the FAQ thread (UPGRADE).

This would get some $$$ for development again; some of that UPGRADE cash flow could be used for UPDATES to the rest of guys.

So....

MS-8 ("regular joe version")
MS-8U ("audio nut version") $+200 - same hardware!!! (I'll be the first buyer).


----------



## subwoofery

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ...In EVERY case where the level matching has created a lack of midbass and too much bass, I've been able to solve it by adjusting the sub amp gain UP if there's too much bass and DOWN if there's too little. This may seem counterintuitive, but it works...


Sounds like the correct thing to do coz I remember one person swapping his sub amp to a more powerful one (HD750/1 --> HD1200/1) that did fix his midbass issue. 

Kelvin


----------



## taibanl

taibanl said:


> *Regarding the passive cross between mid bass and sub:*
> 
> Andy,
> 
> I have a good, great actually result (by ear) at present. But only now just realized that my sub is passively low passed at 24db slope while my mid basses are high passed at 12dB. Are there any considerations, specifically phase issues? Can I live with this?





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> What do you mean by "passively low passed"? Are you using two coils and two caps after the amp to filter the sub and a cap and coil on the midbass speakers?





taibanl said:


> @ andy
> 
> Sorry; blonde moment
> 
> I meant to say they are HP (12dB) and LP (24dB) at their respective amp, not ms-8.


Anyone? Subjectively it sounds good to me; but are there any considerations (i.e. phase related) with having differing slopes at the same cross point?


----------



## subwoofery

taibanl said:


> Anyone? Subjectively it sounds good to me; but are there any considerations (i.e. phase related) with having differing slopes at the same cross point?


If it sounds good, there's no point to worry about it. 

Kelvin


----------



## 14642

subwoofery said:


> If it sounds good, there's no point to worry about it.
> 
> Kelvin


^^This


----------



## t3sn4f2

quietfly said:


> Andy,
> I have to say i am very grateful for the amount of insight you've given us in to the how's and why's of the MS-8. It's always nice to see product managers as passionate about their product as you are. Keep up the great work, it is Extremely appreciated.


xxxx2


----------



## lavesa

*Re: Holy jet engine!*



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yeah, firmware. I finally have a couple of software guys assigned to this. I have no idea how long it will take to find it. Has only been reported during setup, so I'd say there's little chance of this happening when you're driving. If you're calibrating at 70MPH, I'd say the jet engine noise might hasten an unwanted occurrence, but likely wouldn't be the sole cause of a problem...
> 
> I can say that MS-8 doesn't like to be sending strings back and forth between microprocessors and the DSP when the battery finally dies. Get a charger or run the car.


Andy, I got the jet engine noise again as well. I already blew a pair of Focal mids and replaced them with Morel's. I never got the sound again after installing the new speakers and recalibrating, but I've been paranoid ever since then. It has only been calibrated for the drivers seat for 7 months now because I'm afraid to calibrate it again! With this MS8, I also got the random, very loud, "popping" sounds that have been reported and I also get static in my right channels and engine noise when the outside temperature drops. So, I bought a new MS8 and will send the other back for repair. I suppose I will have a backup now... 

Anyway, when I put in the brand new MS8, I calibrated for the drivers seat and it sounded great. Then I calibrated for the rest of the seating positions without changing the crossover points, etc. MS8 was at -20db and I lowered my volume all the way on the deck. After calibration, I increased to -3db with the mic still plugged in. Then the jet engine arrived so I got to the trunk as soon as I could to unplug the rca jacks. I'm praying that my mids aren't blown.

Luckily, I was still at the shop and we switched the speaker outputs to some test speakers on his bench and sure enough, the jets were still active. We took the unit completely out of the car, with the new JBL display (the old one is mounted in my car) and used his deck and speakers on his bench and it's still there. So, that completely eliminated my deck, my amps, the JBL display and all the wiring.

It was only my left front hi/lo channels and it didn't seem to effect any of the other channels. Interesting enough, it was the exact speaker locations when it happened the first time (drivers seat two-way). Anyway, we hooked up my old one and he has the new one in the box. He's getting me a new one tomorrow so we can send this unit back to JBL while the issue is still occuring if you think this will help in diagnosing the problem. It's at Riveroaks Car Stereo in Houston. 

So, is this a problem with keeping the mic plugged in after calibration or is it a firmware issue? How can I be sure it won't happen again? How would one be able to update the firmware of an existing unit? 

I've had two MS8's and it happened on both. I'm having a remote power switch added for my amp so I can shut this thing off if necessary. It's unsettling to hear it for sure! 

Thanks for all your very helpful posts...

Andrew


----------



## lavesa

musicfan said:


> Having experienced it before, I knew to shut off the head unit, but this is very hard to remember when you are being assaulted with noise at the absolute maximum SPL output of your system. Even if I think quickly, it takes several terrifying seconds to shut down my head unit. (I can't even begin to tell you how dangerous it is when this happens while you are driving and what a huge setback it is when it happens when _your wife _is driving... "Tell me again, Honey, why you bought a car with a top-of-the-line sound system option, then spent five months and nearly $4,000 replacing that perfectly good sound system with another one THAT TRIES TO KILL US???)
> [/LIST]


Holy crap, sounds like the EXACT conversation I had with my wife about the BMW 750li that took weeks to have modified. This happened to me on the interstate and my MS8 is in the trunk. The only thing I could do was unplug the rca jacks. By the time I got over, all I smelled was burnt voice coils. So, my $4000 system went to $5000 because I had to get new speakers! So today, I just purchased a new MS8 from a local dealer because I was still getting the popping noise on the old unit so I'm close to $6000 now and I got the jet engine on a brand new unit! I was in the parking lot of the stereo shop this time so I was able to unplug it in time, I hope, so my speakers are not blown.

I'm getting a new one tomorrow and I've emailed Andy, hopefully, the firmware will solve the problem. For the firmware, was it just sent from an email? How did you apply the new firmware?

I'm installing a remote power switch to my amp for this exact issue.


----------



## taibanl

lavesa said:


> Holy crap, sounds like the EXACT conversation I had with my wife about the BMW 750li that took weeks to have modified. This happened to me on the interstate and my MS8 is in the trunk. The only thing I could do was unplug the rca jacks. By the time I got over, all I smelled was burnt voice coils. So, my $4000 system went to $5000 because I had to get new speakers! So today, I just purchased a new MS8 from a local dealer because I was still getting the popping noise on the old unit so I'm close to $6000 now and I got the jet engine on a brand new unit! I was in the parking lot of the stereo shop this time so I was able to unplug it in time, I hope, so my speakers are not blown.
> 
> I'm getting a new one tomorrow and I've emailed Andy, hopefully, the firmware will solve the problem. For the firmware, was it just sent from an email? How did you apply the new firmware?
> 
> I'm installing a remote power switch to my amp for this exact issue.


There is no firmware fix for this as far as I know.


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## duro78

Imo the ms8 shouldnt of been released yet, it shouldn't of been green lit considering all the issues it has. I love my ms8 and truly do appreciate the time and effort Andy has spent helping everyone but I believe it wasn't ready for market yet.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## quietfly

duro78 said:


> Imo the ms8 shouldnt of been released yet, it shouldn't of been green lit considering all the issues it has. I love my ms8 and truly do appreciate the time and effort Andy has spent helping everyone but I believe it wasn't ready for market yet.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


in over 90% of the installations i've seen and "read" about the MS-8 is fine. Also have you taken in to consideration what the ms-8 actually does. Experienced DIYERS have gotten results that have previously taken MONTHS to achieve in *mere minutes*. I know of Head Units that have more issues than the ms-8 has been having. 
Also A LOT of the "issues" have been *operator error*. RTFM!!! 
If anything maybe this should have been marketed as a one size fits MOST not one size fits all. 
I think saying the product is not ready for market is asinine, the product for what it does, is at the top of its game (auto tuning DSP). 

JMO YMMV


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## slinger1

Well i installed my MS-8 yesterday in my F150....Took a few hours mostly because i had to re-route some cabels and do some re-wiring on the other amps in the system...The first thing when i turn it on i got the "please wait"..so i waited..and waited...hmmm...so i came in and read through some posts and whala....it was just the conection for the display on the MS8..wiggled it around and fixed that....The i did the first calibration and setup and it sounded ok but not even close to what i had before installing the processor...So i started changing configs. and xover settings at differant volumes and was getting all kinds of results...some good some really bad....I know this thing will do what i want if i could just find the right xover freqs. for my setup....Heres where im at now....

Focal 165vb's in front doors....passive mid/tweet...ch.1 and 2...
Focal 130a1s in rear doors....passive mid/tweet...ch.3 and 4....
2-RE Audio sex10d4s under rear seat in ported enclosure...ch.5 and 6....

the doors are fed from RF p400x4 amp and the subs have a RE xtx 3000x1 amp....

i selected 2 for subs then 1 way for front and 1 way for side/rears so i used 6 xovers..and this is where i had best results so far...

I did try subs as 0 and making the fronts 2way and having the subs as FLL and FRL but ended up going back to the 2 sub config....

anyone have sugestions on xover settings or another way to configure my system....all 4 doors have the focal xovers connected untill i can get some speaker wires into the fronts...


----------



## duro78

quietfly said:


> in over 90% of the installations i've seen and "read" about the MS-8 is fine. Also have you taken in to consideration what the ms-8 actually does. Experienced DIYERS have gotten results that have previously taken MONTHS to achieve in *mere minutes*. I know of Head Units that have more issues than the ms-8 has been having.
> Also A LOT of the "issues" have been *operator error*. RTFM!!!
> If anything maybe this should have been marketed as a one size fits MOST not one size fits all.
> I think saying the product is not ready for market is asinine, the product for what it does, is at the top of its game (auto tuning DSP).
> 
> JMO YMMV


I agree 100% its an awesome product that's why i would hate to see it tarnished by minor details. I wouldnt exactly say 90% is user error because even Andy is finding out new things about the unit. We are all kind of figuring it out together. Thats part of the reason i like this site. I understand all processing units have their quirks but I would hate for the ms8 to not be appreciated for what it is because of these minor issues. Trust me Im completely blown away by what this unit is capable of especially when it comes to something as subjective as sq. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk)


----------



## quietfly

slinger1 said:


> Well i installed my MS-8 yesterday in my F150....Took a few hours mostly because i had to re-route some cabels and do some re-wiring on the other amps in the system...The first thing when i turn it on i got the "please wait"..so i waited..and waited...hmmm...so i came in and read through some posts and whala....it was just the conection for the display on the MS8..wiggled it around and fixed that....The i did the first calibration and setup and it sounded ok but not even close to what i had before installing the processor...So i started changing configs. and xover settings at differant volumes and was getting all kinds of results...some good some really bad....I know this thing will do what i want if i could just find the right xover freqs. for my setup....Heres where im at now....
> 
> Focal 165vb's in front doors....passive mid/tweet...ch.1 and 2...
> Focal 130a1s in rear doors....passive mid/tweet...ch.3 and 4....
> 2-RE Audio sex10d4s under rear seat in ported enclosure...ch.5 and 6....
> 
> the doors are fed from RF p400x4 amp and the subs have a RE xtx 3000x1 amp....
> 
> i selected 2 for subs then 1 way for front and 1 way for side/rears so i used 6 xovers..and this is where i had best results so far...
> 
> I did try subs as 0 and making the fronts 2way and having the subs as FLL and FRL but ended up going back to the 2 sub config....
> 
> anyone have sugestions on xover settings or another way to configure my system....all 4 doors have the focal xovers connected untill i can get some speaker wires into the fronts...



can you post your complete configuration including xover points, sub port tune freq. 

Also i've found better luck running the sub off of one channel on the ms-8


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## slinger1

yes...its a foxacustics box that is 2.05cu. tuned @ 36hz..........

have subs on one channel....

options selected:
sub-1
sub sonic - 20hz/24db 
sub/front -62hz/24db
front- 1way
center-none
side -1way
hi pass 50hz/24db

MS8 volume set at -55 and headunit at 10 outta 40.....


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## kaigoss69

^^^ where are the amp gains and what is the MS-8 volume when you listen to music?


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## slinger1

gain on the 4ch. amp are @ about 7 outta 10 and the sub amp is @ 6 outta 10.....i turn the ms8 vol up to -20 and the use the HU to go up or down from there.....


----------



## subwoofery

slinger1 said:


> gain on the 4ch. amp are @ about 7 outta 10 and the sub amp is @ 6 outta 10.....*i turn the ms8 vol up to -20 and the use the HU to go up or down from there*.....


Please read the manual. 

Do you use the OEM HU? 

Kelvin


----------



## taibanl

slinger1 said:


> yes...its a foxacustics box that is 2.05cu. tuned @ 36hz..........
> 
> have subs on one channel....
> 
> options selected:
> sub-1
> sub sonic - 20hz/24db
> sub/front -62hz/24db
> front- 1way
> center-none
> side -1way
> hi pass 50hz/24db
> 
> MS8 volume set at -55 and headunit at 10 outta 40.....


Recommended starting point is 80hz for Sub/Front cross
Recommended rear (side) HP is 100hz+


----------



## kaigoss69

^^^ what they said!


----------



## naiku

Next week I should be finally picking up one of these, but I am not sure what the best route is going to be with my speakers. This is what I have:

Fronts: Massive Audio CK6 comps
Rear: Alpine Type R coax
Sub: Elemental Designs 11KV.2
Center: Undecided.

I have an Alpine MRV-F345 running all the speakers, and an MRD-M605 running the sub. I was planning to use the MS8's amp to run the center (when I get it). But, should I instead use the MS8's amp to power the rear speakers? and run the center off one of the channels of my F345? 

On top of that, I am having a hard time finding a center speaker that fits in my stock location. The OEM speaker is a 2" speaker in a square frame, and has a mounting depth of 23mm. I can't yet get the OEM speaker out, but don't think I have much more room than that in there. So, any recommended center speakers? and is it better to run the center speaker off an amp, and the rears off the MS8? or vice versa?


----------



## quietfly

slinger1 said:


> yes...its a foxacustics box that is 2.05cu. tuned @ 36hz..........
> 
> have subs on one channel....
> 
> options selected:
> sub-1
> sub sonic - 20hz/24db
> sub/front -62hz/24db
> front- 1way
> center-none
> side -1way
> hi pass 50hz/24db
> 
> MS8 volume set at -55 and headunit at 10 outta 40.....


first raise the xover points try 80-100 on the subs and sides over 300, 

wow that seems rather low for the ms8 vol. what are your gains on the amps set like? Unless you have a uber loudness requirement i've found the lower i can have them set the better the ms-8 does at tuning...


----------



## slinger1

thanks guys.......i will try raising the freqs. tonite at work...


----------



## kaigoss69

slinger1 said:


> thanks guys.......i will try raising the freqs. tonite at work...


Your main problem is not the frequencies...it's the volumes and gains.


----------



## taibanl

naiku said:


> But, should I instead use the MS8's amp to power the rear speakers? and run the center off one of the channels of my F345?
> 
> So, any recommended center speakers? and is it better to run the center speaker off an amp, and the rears off the MS8? or vice versa?


SEARCH:




AdamS said:


> The recommendation is to either run all of the Fronts (L/R/C) off of the internal amps or all off of external amps.
> 
> If you mix and match, you will possibly have EQ limitations and will definitely limit your potential output power.
> 
> That being said, you can easily run the sides and rears off of the internal amps and the fronts off of external amps.


----------



## quietfly

naiku said:


> Next week I should be finally picking up one of these, but I am not sure what the best route is going to be with my speakers. This is what I have:
> 
> Fronts: Massive Audio CK6 comps
> Rear: Alpine Type R coax
> Sub: Elemental Designs 11KV.2
> Center: Undecided.
> 
> I have an Alpine MRV-F345 running all the speakers, and an MRD-M605 running the sub. I was planning to use the MS8's amp to run the center (when I get it). But, should I instead use the MS8's amp to power the rear speakers? and run the center off one of the channels of my F345?
> 
> On top of that, I am having a hard time finding a center speaker that fits in my stock location. The OEM speaker is a 2" speaker in a square frame, and has a mounting depth of 23mm. I can't yet get the OEM speaker out, but don't think I have much more room than that in there. So, any recommended center speakers? and is it better to run the center speaker off an amp, and the rears off the MS8? or vice versa?



I recommend running the rears/sides off of the MS-8 only if you have no other choice. your front stage FL,FR,C should be externally amped. (or all on the ms-8) Mixing and matching CAN work, but often can be problematic.

as for your center speaker if you can't fit anything bigger try the Aurasound Whisper. they are 2inchers with a good reputation.


----------



## aviator79

My MS-8 will be arriving Thursday so I will be installing it over the weekend. My biggest concern is still getting all of my amps settings sqaured away so the MS-8 can do its job. My VRX has too many buttons and switches on it that I dont now what they do. Hop for the best.


----------



## quietfly

aviator79 said:


> My MS-8 will be arriving Thursday so I will be installing it over the weekend. My biggest concern is still getting all of my amps settings sqaured away so the MS-8 can do its job. My VRX has too many buttons and switches on it that I dont now what they do. Hop for the best.


take your time
READ THE MANUAL
Ask questions if you don't understand

we'll still be here... :laugh:


----------



## aviator79

quietfly said:


> take your time
> READ THE MANUAL
> Ask questions if you don't understand
> 
> we'll still be here... :laugh:


Ya, I already downloaded it and skimmed it, but I will read it first. I hate reading manuals...I write them for a living.


----------



## jon302v8

My MS-8 system sounds better than anything I've ever had in the car... but now I'm addicted and the bar has been raised... I'm now comparing the car to my home stereo and headphones! 

Anyway, the last issue I want to clean up is some grain or harshness present in vocals. I think it's crossover related because I improved it a lot by lowering the mid-tweeter crossover point... but I think I'm at the limit of the tweeter at this point.

I know my 6.5" off-axis midwoofer + tiny tweeter is not the ideal setup and the crossover point is right in the vocal range.

I have a 3" A/C vent right next to my tweeters. I could put a large format tweeter (like the Dayton RS28F) in there and cross over lower (maybe 1800 Hz). Or I could go 3-way and put in some sort of 3" mid.

I remember Andy talked about a 3-way setup with mid+tweet passively crossed on the same MS-8 channel. I think he or someone even recommended a driver. I searched this thread but couldn't find it.

Anybody have a mid recommendation for a 3" A/C cutout?

There goes my "stealth" install... but like I said now I'm addicted!


----------



## slinger1

kaigoss69 said:


> Your main problem is not the frequencies...it's the volumes and gains.


ok...i recalibrated and set the xovers @ 80hz/12db for sub/front and 120hz 24/db for sides..also set the ms8 volume @ -40 and headunit was 15 outta 40...the mids and highs are great and the bass did improve but not like it was before the MS-8..everytime i change something now it getts alittle bit better....also after cal. i turn the MS-8 volume up to -20 and use the headunit volume when listening to music...

Where should my amp gains be?? Do i need to measure the outputs of both amps with a meter and just set them both for 2 volts?...Before the ms8 i had my amps gains almost all the way up on the 4ch.... and like 8 of 10 on the mono...it was loud and sounded good...now the volume is still there for the doors mids/tweets but subs cant play loud enough to keep the blending at higher volumes....


----------



## antikryst

i may jump on the ms8 quite sooner that i thought i would. 

hows the onboard amp? can it power focal v30 (TNB) tweeters efficiently without it being drowned out? i just have a 4 channel amp and its either an ms8 or a sub amp for now.

also, my tweets (custom pillars) are far away from my mids (door). so I'm guessing that if i run my front stage passive... i won't get time alignment work properly.

can you have the auto calibrate run with the tweets far away from the mids set at 1-way (passive) and have a good sounding system?

also can't change my HU. so now I'm thinking about quitting any other upgrades and be content with what i have now. if the stock HU really won't cut it even with an ms8... id just quit early before i spend more money on something that won't really be much of an upgrade due to my weakest link (stock hu).


----------



## venkiee

Dear ICE Guru's...

I have the ICE arrangement in my new car as below. I would kindly request experts to guide me with hook-up details for my set-up by adding a MS-8.

Thanks in advance....

Venkiee
from Malaysia...


----------



## taibanl

venkiee said:


> Dear ICE Guru's...
> 
> I have the ICE arrangement in my new car as below. I would kindly request experts to guide me with hook-up details for my set-up by adding a MS-8.
> 
> Thanks in advance....
> 
> Venkiee
> from Malaysia...


I would recommend getting about 20cm spacers for your wheels and they might look a bit better with a wider stance.:laugh:


----------



## 14642

duro78 said:


> Imo the ms8 shouldnt of been released yet, it shouldn't of been green lit considering all the issues it has. I love my ms8 and truly do appreciate the time and effort Andy has spent helping everyone but I believe it wasn't ready for market yet.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Well, it isn't perfect and depending on your system and your setup, implementing it may require a few adjustments, especially if you are used to a conventional process--adjusting crossovers AFTER tuning, especially. We've sold about 5000 of these things and the VAST majority of them work well. There are some known issues and we're working on them. The following three are the "biggies". 

1. Jet engine noise. I know of 12 instances of this.
2. Level matching between sub and front under some conditions. BMW's with super-loud under seat subs is the system that consistently has this problem. I've posted suggestions about what should be done for other cars, and Kaigoss has a configuration that seems to work in BMW. FWIW, we won several IASCA contests with a BMW using all the factory speakers and an additional sub and did NOT have this problem. 
3. RCA and display connectors. Although it's a PITA, we replace units for these failures. 
4. Compatability with some OE Bluetooth echo cancellation algorithms. THere's a firmware update that helps in SOME instances. Not every one can be fixed. Bummer.

The MS-8 does not work well with the Linn system in Bently Continental. They use a phase inverting all pass filter in the factory EQ and MS-8 cannot correct it. MS-8 is also incompatible with the B&O systems in Audi. The setup track isn't recognized (signal "none"). There are only a couple of things that would cause this--non-linear EQ of some sort, a seriously erroneous sampling frequency that isn't close enough to 44.1k to be fixed by our algorithm or a different sampling frequency altogether. I don't have access to an Audi with that system, so that one is low on the list. 

On balance, there are several thousand cars that sound much better because of MS-8. We'll keep working to sort out the issues.


----------



## lavesa

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well, it isn't perfect and depending on your system and your setup, implementing it may require a few adjustments, especially if you are used to a conventional process--adjusting crossovers AFTER tuning, especially. We've sold about 5000 of these things and the VAST majority of them work well. There are some known issues and we're working on them. The following three are the "biggies".
> 
> 1. Jet engine noise. I know of 12 instances of this.
> 2. Level matching between sub and front under some conditions. BMW's with super-loud under seat subs is the system that consistently has this problem. I've posted suggestions about what should be done for other cars, and Kaigoss has a configuration that seems to work in BMW. FWIW, we won several IASCA contests with a BMW using all the factory speakers and an additional sub and did NOT have this problem.
> 3. RCA and display connectors. Although it's a PITA, we replace units for these failures.
> 
> On balance, there are several thousand cars that sound much better because of MS-8. We'll keep working to sort out the issues.


Andy, I'm definitely a fan of the MS8 but I've had two occurrences of the jet engine noise with two different units. The first one fried my Focal's which led to replacing those and a center channel with Morel's that cost me close to $1000. The second didn't cook the voice coils because I was not on the interstate and was able to shut it off in time. Are you saying mine are two of the twelve? I've posted a few times in the last couple of days but have not seen any replies. I would like to get a firmware update if possible because someone stated that they received one after getting the jet enging noise and it has not occurred since then. I am now on my third MS8 as of yesterday and did not receive the noise after the two times I did the calibration on this unit. 

I also have a BMW that is lacking in mid-bass and would like to try any suggestions you have to correct the issue. I have not tried the "Kaigoss Mod" yet. I've responded to your request of a test BMW on a different thread but here is my setup:

*Speakers:*
Mids - Morel Hybrid Ovation II 4 2-Way 4" Component Speakers - passive at 1800Hz
Center - Morel Integra Ovation 4" (2-way) - passive at 4000Hz 6dB/octave with tweeter output jumpers to +3db
Underseat subs - 8" Morel MW265-4ohm 
Sub - JL Audio 12W3 (box with speaker pointing directly into car through ski boot) - Believe it's sealed but I will have to check with my installer
Rear - stock speakers running in parallel (rear deck and doors)


*Equipment:*

Alpine PDX F6 (4x150) - 2 channels for Morel 8" mid-bass under the seat and two channels bridged to the JL 12W3 sub 
Alpine PDX 4.100 - 2 channels for Morel HII 4" components in front doors and 1 channel for Morel Integra Ovation 4" for the center channel 
JBL MS-8 - Power the rear speakers
*JBL Configuration:*
Channel 1 – FL-Hi
Channel 2 – FR-Hi
Channel 3 – FL-Lo (underseat sub)
Channel 4 – FR-Lo (underseat sub)
Channel 5 – Center
Channel 6 – Sub1
Channel 7 – Side Left (rear)
Channel 8 – Side Right (rear)

During Frequency setup, I set the MS8 to -20dB but listen to the system with it around -3db which gives me more head room on different songs.

*Current configuration:*
Sub1 – subsonic 20Hz, 6dB/Oct
Sub/Front : 60Hz, 24dB/Oct
2-way front – Morel components and the 8” underseat subs
Front hi/lo xover – 230Hz, 24dB/Oct
Center – 1 way – Center Hi Pass – 230Hz, 24dB/Oct
Side – 1 way – Side Hi Pass – 100Hz, 24dB/Oct
Rear – none


----------



## jlee3

For whatever it's worth I had the jet engine noise in a Cadillac CTS. I found that the unit did not like anything in the microphone input ( not even an extension cable ). This took care of the jet engine problem but I still had occasional popping and really weird tunes. It just never liked that car or my install in that car. I have the same unit in a BMW 535 now and none of those problems have occurred...go figure.


----------



## dentalpain

re: jet engine noise. 
Make sure mic is unplugged after calibration. Make sure any factory anc is disabled before calibration. 

I have not had these issues. A friend sat in my car and heard my system for the first tone yesterday. His first comment, "how did u get it tundd so perfectly". I am very pleased. 

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk


----------



## slinger1

Here she is......still doing some tweeking with setup but its starting to sound great...


current config:

sub- 1 selected...25hz/12db
sub/front...80hz/24db
front...1way
center...none
side...1way...hp 120hz/24db

MS-8 volume -50 and HU 15 outta 40 for sweeps...Then after setup i turn the MS-8 vol. up to -20 and use HU for controll.......in using 5 channels untill i can seperate fronts....


----------



## kaigoss69

^^^ so I see you still haven't read the manual...

Set MS-8 volume to -6db after calibration.


----------



## slinger1

kaigoss69 said:


> ^^^ so I see you still haven't read the manual...
> 
> Set MS-8 volume to -6db after calibration.


ty..


I have read that thing...never saw where it said that..not to say it doesent.....i will try the -6 but at -20 on ms8 when i get to half way on HU volume 20 outta 40 its way freakin loud...but i can go all the way to 40 with only alittle sq loss....I did turn my amps gains down before last cal. also and its still very loud....on a side note tho before the MS8 i had amps almost maxed on gains and my regular listening level was @ 12 on HU. but around 20 started sounding bad....now with the MS8 vol. at -20 the HU is same level at 20 and i still have all the way to 40 and still sounds good.......





ooops...it does say it.. IN BOLD....lol... but that only if your gunna unplug it...

IMPORTANT: If you decide not to install the MS-8’s display permanently, the
Main Menu and all of the MS-8’s adjustments will not be available. In this
case, set the MS-8’s System Volume to –6dB (see Volume Up and Volume
Down buttons, on this page), and unplug the display unit. Be sure to store
the display unit, cable and remote control in a safe place in case you may
want to reconfigure the system or make other adjustments.


----------



## subwoofery

kaigoss69 said:


> _^^^ so I see you still haven't read the manual..._
> 
> Set MS-8 volume to -6db after calibration.


Yeah... I guess he skipped my post  

Kelvin


----------



## pionkej

lavesa said:


> ...I've had two occurrences of the jet engine noise with two different units...


Do you leave the mic cable plugged in after calibration? You're last post seemed to indicate yes, and that is a known potential cause for the "jet engine noise" and "popping" sounds. The big one is a trying to keep a battery in use that needs to be replaced. Please check both before faulting the MS8 because if it has happened twice, on two different units, it is more than likely a user error and not an MS8 issue.


----------



## pionkej

I have a question for the "Kaigoss Method" workaround. Does this also work if you run the center full range? What I mean, is if I cross my left and right at 80hz or so, and run the center full range (to cross passively with the sub at the amps), will any sounds below 80hz on the left and right be directed toward the center...or will they be "lost".

I'm running at 2-way left and right, but I'm crossing them passively at the amp, and since my amp doesn't have a bandpass function, I can't also cross over to the sub ala "Kaigoss Method". I want to run sides and rear on the MS8, and the only way to have enough channels on the MS8 is by crossing the sub passively, and I can only do it by running the center full range. Therefore I have the question above.


----------



## taibanl

pionkej said:


> I have a question for the "Kaigoss Method" workaround. Does this also work if you run the center full range? What I mean, is if I cross my left and right at 80hz or so, and run the center full range (to cross passively with the sub at the amps), will any sounds below 80hz on the left and right be directed toward the center...or will they be "lost".
> 
> I'm running at 2-way left and right, but I'm crossing them passively at the amp, and since my amp doesn't have a bandpass function, I can't also cross over to the sub ala "Kaigoss Method". I want to run sides and rear on the MS8, and the only way to have enough channels on the MS8 is by crossing the sub passively, and I can only do it by running the center full range. Therefore I have the question above.


can you post some more info on your channel assignments?

You could do the alternate mod, and run the subs as the Front L/R LOW (i.e. 2 way @ MS-8 and then the high portion later split at the amp.


----------



## lavesa

pionkej said:


> Do you leave the mic cable plugged in after calibration? You're last post seemed to indicate yes, and that is a known potential cause for the "jet engine noise" and "popping" sounds. The big one is a trying to keep a battery in use that needs to be replaced. Please check both before faulting the MS8 because if it has happened twice, on two different units, it is more than likely a user error and not an MS8 issue.


Yes, the mic was plugged in on both occasions but I do not leave it plugged in now. 

I'm still leery on that being the actual cause of the jet engine sound because if the system is not in calibration mode why would the mic be picking up noise? Also, is there a time limit that you must beat in order to avoid the problem? Do you have to unplug it before turning up the volume on the MS8 or before you turn up the volume on the HU? What is the rule on that?? Also, it has been reported to have happened when the mic was not plugged into the system and Andy eluded to it being a firmware issue so how is that explained?

I did read the manual but don't remember any place that stated to remove the headset immediately after calibration. It could be there in passing but if there is potential to fry speakers, that information should be in bold red with big arrows pointing to it saying to READ THIS FIRST... Since the unit is tucked away in my trunk, I opted to have access to the RCA jacks instead of the side that has the microphone jack. At the time, it seemed like a good idea just to keep it plugged in. A very strong argument could be made that it's an MS8 issue and not user error if leaving the headset in could cause great damage to speakers because of this jet engine sound. Especially if it's not thoroughly documented as a serious warning to remove the headset after callibration.

Regarding the popping sound, leaving the mic plugged in could be the culprit because I do notice a popping sound when I plug in the mic. I hope so because I don't want to have to return the MS8 again! I also had other issues with that first unit because I would get static in a channel and also engine noise when the outside temperature dropped. Also, while the system was playing, the display would blank out and reset periodically and sometimes stay off for minutes so I really wanted to send that unit back for a replacement.

As for the battery, are you talking about the battery in the remote? If it's a battery in the unit somewhere it should have been brand new, this occurred within the first two weeks of installing the first unit and within an hour of the second.


----------



## quietfly

lavesa said:


> Yes, the mic was plugged in on both occasions but I do not leave it plugged in now.
> .....
> 
> I did read the manual but don't remember any place that stated to remove the headset immediately after calibration.....
> ......A very strong argument could be made that it's an MS8 issue and not user error if leaving the headset in could cause great damage to speakers because of this jet engine sound. Especially if it's not thoroughly documented as a serious warning to remove the headset after callibration....



*Page 15* "MICROPHONE
The included binaural microphone headset must be connected to the MS-8’s Mic connection during the
calibration/setup process. *Once setup is complete, unplug the microphone headset *and store it in a safe
place.
IMPORTANT: Do not use any other microphone with the MS-8."

*Page 34*
"Done: Selecting this option will complete the calibration process if you do not
wish to measure additional seating positions. The MS-8 will display Acoustic
Measurement Complete > Please wait while it calibrates the system. When the
calibration is complete, the MS-8 will display Main Menu.
*Disconnect the microphone,* insert your favorite CD and have a listen.
Additional adjustments are available in the Main Menu (see Main Menu, on
page 35)."

They tell you twice.
My question for you is, do you often spend 600+ dollars on equipment and not read all the instructions? 


lavesa said:


> ......A very strong argument could be made that it's an MS8 issue and not user error if leaving the headset in could cause great damage to speakers because of this jet engine sound. Especially if it's not thoroughly documented as a serious warning to remove the headset after callibration....


WEAK SAUCE DUDE, they did tell you, in fact they told you twice, just because you didn't follow the directions, doesn't give you the right to blame the MS-8. 
*RTFM*
Ask questions if you don't understand. 
I'm sorry you had issue's and i hope you get them worked out. I leave you with the words of my late Nana
_
"if you don't follow the recipe, you don't get to complain the cake didn't turn out right"_


----------



## pionkej

taibanl said:


> can you post some more info on your channel assignments?
> 
> You could do the alternate mod, and run the subs as the Front L/R LOW (i.e. 2 way @ MS-8 and then the high portion later split at the amp.


You're suggestion won't work, I'll run out of channels. I appreciate the suggestion though. My planned setup is:

Ch1&2--left and right midbass/midrange (crossed 80hz+ @ ms8--crossed at 580hz at amp)
Ch 3&4--side fill
Ch 5&6--rear fill
Ch 7--center midrange (700hz+)
Ch 8--center midbass (700hz- @ ms8--crossed at 80hz between midbass and sub at amp)

I am using 2" Aura Whispers and need that 700hz to avoid distortion at high output. I can't cross at the amp because it maxes out at 580hz and so it needs an active channel on the ms8.


----------



## lavesa

quietfly said:


> WEAK SAUCE DUDE, they did tell you, in fact they told you twice, just because you didn't follow the directions doesn't you don't get the right to blame the MS-8.


As I stated, it was probably in the manual but nothing indicated that there could be dire consequences if not done. I also didn't insert my favorite CD so can I blame it on that? Also, it would help if they had it in bold as you've made it in your post. Better yet, why not start with *IMPORTANT*?

I'm still not convinced it's because the mic was plugged in as indicated by another MS8 owner that got the sound when the mic was not plugged in.



musicfan said:


> I am now getting the runaway "jet engine" feedback *with the mic unplugged*.


Also, as I stated, Andy has eluded to this being a firmware issue. 



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yeah, firmware. I finally have a couple of software guys assigned to this. I have no idea how long it will take to find it. Has only been reported during setup, so I'd say there's little chance of this happening when you're driving. If you're calibrating at 70MPH, I'd say the jet engine noise might hasten an unwanted occurrence, but likely wouldn't be the sole cause of a problem...


Anyway, don't get your panties all in a wad. I think this is an awesome product and very glad to have it. The jet engine phenomenon is real and should be addressed by JBL. If they trace it back to the mic, fine, just document it as so.


----------



## pionkej

lavesa said:


> As I stated, it was probably in the manual but nothing indicated that there could be dire consequences if not done. I also didn't insert my favorite CD so can I blame it on that? Also, it would help if they had it in bold as you've made it in your post. Better yet, why not start with *IMPORTANT*?
> 
> I'm still not convinced it's because the mic was plugged in as indicated by another MS8 owner that got the sound when the mic was not plugged in.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, as I stated, Andy has eluded to this being a firmware issue.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, don't get your panties all in a wad. I think this is an awesome product and very glad to have it. The jet engine phenomenon is real and should be addressed by JBL. If they trace it back to the mic, fine, just document it as so.


Well, instead of continuing the back and forth, just keep the mic unplugged after calibration, and make sure your (CAR) battery is up to snuff. Until we hear of a firmware fix from Andy, these are the two most common KNOWN causes and are easy to avoid.


----------



## venkiee

taibanl said:


> I would recommend getting about 20cm spacers for your wheels and they might look a bit better with a wider stance.:laugh:


Oh.. boy....just an indicative sketch....

Looking for a solution...guys please help


----------



## kaigoss69

pionkej said:


> You're suggestion won't work, I'll run out of channels. I appreciate the suggestion though. My planned setup is:
> 
> Ch1&2--left and right midbass/midrange (crossed 80hz+ @ ms8--crossed at 580hz at amp)
> Ch 3&4--side fill
> Ch 5&6--rear fill
> Ch 7--center midrange (700hz+)
> Ch 8--center midbass (700hz- @ ms8--crossed at 80hz between midbass and sub at amp)
> 
> I am using 2" Aura Whispers and need that 700hz to avoid distortion at high output. I can't cross at the amp because it maxes out at 580hz and so it needs an active channel on the ms8.


Why are you wasting 4 channels on rear fill? You need those channels up front much more badly:

Ch1&2--left and right midrange (700hz HP at MS-8)
Ch 3&4--left and right midbass (20hz - 700Hz Bandpass at MS-8, 80Hz HP at amp) / sub LP at amp at 80Hz
Ch 5&6--rears & sides (parallel or series)
Ch 7--center midrange (700hz HP at MS-8)
Ch 8--center midbass (80 - 700hz Bandpass @ ms8)


----------



## pionkej

kaigoss69 said:


> Why are you wasting 4 channels on rear fill? You need those channels up front much more badly:
> 
> Ch1&2--left and right midrange (700hz HP at MS-8)
> Ch 3&4--left and right midbass (20hz - 700Hz Bandpass at MS-8, 80Hz HP at amp) / sub LP at amp at 80Hz
> Ch 5&6--rears & sides (parallel or series)
> Ch 7--center midrange (700hz HP at MS-8)
> Ch 8--center midbass (80 - 700hz Bandpass @ ms8)


What makes you say I need those channels much more badly up front? My left and right midbass and midrange are within 4" of each other, which, based on the 1/4 wave theory, allows them to be time aligned as one source. Since there is so much less information coming from left and right, the 580hz crossover point doesn't hurt them distortion wise either. To me, it's a waste to use two channels when it isn't needed (I already have my front setup playing while I add the "fill" and subs and it sounds great).

I want to have both sides and rear at my disposal because I want the slight time differences each provides. I'm considering running the "sides" up front in a quasi-ambio setup, and rear will go...well, in the rear. I need the level matching, eq, and separate t/a to even hope for it to work. In order to do that, and use my current setup, I need to use your workaround off the center channel...and that's why I need to know how the MS8 handles a full-range center, no sub, and left and right getting crossed at 80hz.


----------



## taibanl

@ plonkej

Any information that is common to left and right (L=R) will be played, anything that isnt wont. This might e noticable where you have a drum lit that is panned, if a floor tom is tecorded off to the side you wont hear the resonance below 80hz


----------



## kaigoss69

pionkej said:


> *What makes you say I need those channels much more badly up front?* My left and right midbass and midrange are within 4" of each other, which, based on the 1/4 wave theory, allows them to be time aligned as one source. Since there is so much less information coming from left and right, the 580hz crossover point doesn't hurt them distortion wise either. To me, it's a waste to use two channels when it isn't needed (I already have my front setup playing while I add the "fill" and subs and it sounds great).
> 
> I want to have both sides and rear at my disposal because I want the slight time differences each provides. I'm considering running the "sides" up front in a quasi-ambio setup, and rear will go...well, in the rear. I need the level matching, eq, and separate t/a to even hope for it to work. In order to do that, and use my current setup, I need to use your workaround off the center channel...and that's why I need to know how the MS8 handles a full-range center, no sub, and left and right getting crossed at 80hz.


Because you said "need that 700hz to avoid distortion at high output". Your proposed set-up would then give you distortion at high output... 

Plus, that particular set-up would likely "swallow" some of the stereo bass signals.

What I have proposed is what I know works, and it works damn well!


----------



## BigRed

The jet engine noise is real and has been documented by more than one person. It did it to me with and without the mic plugged in and has blown other users speakers. The mic thing is a bs excuse in my opinion. That's the whole reason I got rid of my third replacement unit. Love what the unit does. Don't like the random jet engine takeoff thru my right speakers that gets progressively louder until either the speakers blow or u shut it off. Hope jbl can get that sorted out


----------



## kaigoss69

I had the jet engine noise once while the mic was still plugged in after the calibration.... Got spared any damage (besides my hearing)


----------



## 14642

pionkej said:


> I have a question for the "Kaigoss Method" workaround. Does this also work if you run the center full range? What I mean, is if I cross my left and right at 80hz or so, and run the center full range (to cross passively with the sub at the amps), will any sounds below 80hz on the left and right be directed toward the center...or will they be "lost".
> 
> I'm running at 2-way left and right, but I'm crossing them passively at the amp, and since my amp doesn't have a bandpass function, I can't also cross over to the sub ala "Kaigoss Method". I want to run sides and rear on the MS8, and the only way to have enough channels on the MS8 is by crossing the sub passively, and I can only do it by running the center full range. Therefore I have the question above.


 
Connect the sides and rears in parallel to open more channels for the center and sub. Logic7 steers all information common to left and right to the center. Below the center crossover (in MS-8), center sterred sounds are sent to left and right. Below the left and right crossover, they're sent to the sub. In addition, the lowest crossover point for the center is 50Hz, so it isn't an appropriate sub output.


----------



## 14642

subwoofery said:


> Yeah... I guess he skipped my post
> 
> Kelvin


And mine regarding the setting of amplifier gain controls.


----------



## pionkej

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Connect the sides and rears in parallel to open more channels for the center and sub. Logic7 steers all information common to left and right to the center. Below the center crossover (in MS-8), center sterred sounds are sent to left and right. Below the left and right crossover, they're sent to the sub. In addition, the lowest crossover point for the center is 50Hz, so it isn't an appropriate sub output.


Thank you for the clarification Andy. I just wanted to make sure that the MS8 didn't funnel left and right information back to the center, if the center crossover point was lower (which it doesn't seem to do and therefore my idea won't work).

Thank you to everybody else for the help in alternate configurations. I did not mean to come across as standoff-ish, but was simply aware of my other options and hoping this one would work. Once again, thanks for the help.


----------



## dentalpain

Andy, would something like a Fiio DAC/headphone amp improve sound quality in my system. 
Fiio's E17 Alpen headphone amplifier 'peaks' performance -- Engadget

I am running a driod bionic 3.5mm out into the ms8 directly.


----------



## slinger1

ok....i went back and re-read the posts i musta skipped....and am trying to set amp gains...Dont know if im right but i used the output diag. test noise to adjust the gains on my 4ch. amp..i had the ms8 volume at -40 and HU at 10 and tried to match the volume level of all doors as close as i could...front gain ended up at 1/2 and rear was alittle over 1/2...turned the sub amp gain down till i could barely hear it...about 1/2 also....
my setup now is:
sub-1.........28hz/12db
sub/front......100hz/24db
sides.......120/24db
L7...on....(mids sound better "on")
afte cal. i turn the ms8 to -10 and use HU vol...(plenty loud)



These are my best results so far to my ears...plenty volume and good mids/highs..i still controll my subs with the remote gain knob for different music types...Thanks for all the guys that replied to my posts and in the future i will try to do a better job reading them.....


----------



## Nathan_h

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8 uses 50-80 Hz to figure out the level of the bass. It uses 80-300 to figure out the level of the midbass-midrange. Then, it adjusts the output level of the channels. Then, it EQs the combination of channels. If your sub crossover is set close to the 50Hz spot and the response of your subwoofer has a giant peak between 50 and 80Hz which is common for small seaed boxes, then MS-8 will reduce the level of the channel. this can result in too little bass. If your subwoofer's response has a big peak at 40Hz, then MS-8 will not reduce the level because most of that peak is outside the band of frequencies it checks. That can result in too much bass.
> 
> Similarly, if your midbass drivers have a HUGE peak in the response betwen 80 and 300, then MS-8 will reduce the level of those channels. This is the problem in BMWs with underseat woofers and an additional subwoofer--especially if the subwoofer is in the trunk--the seat and the metal wall filter out much of the midbass from the sub and te midbass speakers are super loud in the 80-300Hz region. The Kaigoss Method simply eliminates level matching between sub and midbass and uses only EQ to tune the bass.


I'm setting up a BMW *without* an additional subwoofer. Based on this excellent information about what frequencies are used for level setting, I should call my underseat woofers "subs", and the two way doors (that have built in crossover) a one way front -- with the crossover from the underseat woofers (called Subs in setup) about 200hz.

Any other nuances I should take into account. (I don't have a center speaker.)


----------



## 14642

Nathan_h said:


> I'm setting up a BMW *without* an additional subwoofer. Based on this excellent information about what frequencies are used for level setting, I should call my underseat woofers "subs", and the two way doors (that have built in crossover) a one way front -- with the crossover from the underseat woofers (called Subs in setup) about 200hz.
> 
> Any other nuances I should take into account. (I don't have a center speaker.)


Connect the front speakers to outputs 1 and 2. Connect the under-seat woofers to outputs 3 and 4. Connect the rear speakers to outputs 5 and 6. Then, choose "none" for subs. Identify the front as 2-way. Choose 30Hz as the subsonic filter, 12dB/octave. Choose 200Hz as the front hi/low crossover, 24db/octave. Choose 100Hz 24 dB/octave for sides. No rear.

Then, use the subwoofer level control in MS-8 to boost the bass. This will provide good midbass, an appropriate crossover for the front mids and the ability to adjust the low bass as if you had a sub. 

I've done this many times in 3-series BMWs and it works great.


----------



## thehatedguy

Andy, have you guys used the MS-8 with cars that have front mounted subwoofers?

Curious as to how it would react to say a sub in each kickpanel/floor driven by a mono signal.


----------



## quietfly

dentalpain said:


> Andy, would something like a Fiio DAC/headphone amp improve sound quality in my system.
> Fiio's E17 Alpen headphone amplifier 'peaks' performance -- Engadget
> 
> I am running a driod bionic 3.5mm out into the ms8 directly.


I'm not sure what Andy will say, but i will tell you base on my own experience, playing music off my droid digitally (as in phone connected to radio via USB) sounds a bit cleaner, however the out put from my 3.5 out into my MS-8 AUX was not really that much worst. meaning driving 60 with windows open its a wash. in a silent car listening for SQ is the only place i could tell. 

just make sure you get GOOD quality flacs or MP3s if you are using 3.5 out. 

hope this helps..
JMO YMMV


----------



## 14642

thehatedguy said:


> Andy, have you guys used the MS-8 with cars that have front mounted subwoofers?
> 
> Curious as to how it would react to say a sub in each kickpanel/floor driven by a mono signal.


So long as the crossover is low and steep, it'll work fine. However, front subs are completely unnecessary. Completely. Well...unless...you routinely have rear seat passengers and you like a lot of bass but they don't.


----------



## 14642

dentalpain said:


> Andy, would something like a Fiio DAC/headphone amp improve sound quality in my system.
> Fiio's E17 Alpen headphone amplifier 'peaks' performance -- Engadget
> 
> I am running a driod bionic 3.5mm out into the ms8 directly.


I don't even know how to begin to answer that. I've never listened critically to the output of a droid bionic. I'm inclined to say that i don't think it's necessary, but I don't have any idea what files you listen to or what your ears sound like. I certainly wouldn't use the link you've posted to make any kind of a buying decision.


----------



## dentalpain

quietfly said:


> I'm not sure what Andy will say, but i will tell you base on my own experience, playing music off my droid digitally (as in phone connected to radio via USB) sounds a bit cleaner, however the out put from my 3.5 out into my MS-8 AUX was not really that much worst. meaning driving 60 with windows open its a wash. in a silent car listening for SQ is the only place i could tell.
> 
> just make sure you get GOOD quality flacs or MP3s if you are using 3.5 out.
> 
> hope this helps..
> JMO YMMV


Right, thanks for you input. I understand the slight difference b/t usb vs 3.5. I was really wondering if anyone has used a product like the fiio for mobile audio with good result. I believe they have products that work with both usb (D/A) and 3.5mm (A/D) although usb host control is only available on honeycomb (my galaxy tab has this OS). I love the SQ I get from my 3.5mm out running straight into the MS8. I have to be careful to set the input back to HU to avoid the disconnect "pop" but that is pretty easy.

EDIT: These have really good reviews over on amazon. Unfortunately, I am lazy and listen to amazon mp3 (256 IIRC)


----------



## toolsong

toolsong said:


> I'd really appreciate it if someone could post the part number for a spare MS-8 remote control.
> 
> I'm having trouble ordering one in the UK, the spare parts supplier doesn't have it listed on their system. Only replacement flush mounts and the like...



Reposting my question, please help


----------



## lavesa

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Connect the front speakers to outputs 1 and 2. Connect the under-seat woofers to outputs 3 and 4. Connect the rear speakers to outputs 5 and 6. Then, choose "none" for subs. Identify the front as 2-way. Choose 30Hz as the subsonic filter, 12dB/octave. Choose 200Hz as the front hi/low crossover, 24db/octave. Choose 100Hz 24 dB/octave for sides. No rear.
> 
> Then, use the subwoofer level control in MS-8 to boost the bass. This will provide good midbass, an appropriate crossover for the front mids and the ability to adjust the low bass as if you had a sub.
> 
> I've done this many times in 3-series BMWs and it works great.


Hi Andy,

Would there be a way to configure this scenario where the front speakers could have a HP of 100 and the mid-bass under the seats have a band pass of 80-400?


----------



## thehatedguy

2 y/o daughter riding in the back...but luckily there isn't a ton of bass in Children's Sing a long CDs...lol.

I was just curious more than anything.


----------



## taibanl

lavesa said:


> Hi Andy,
> 
> Would there be a way to configure this scenario where the front speakers could have a HP of 100 and the mid-bass under the seats have a band pass of 80-400?


No, and it violates one of Andy's 8 tenets on how to make a car sound good.


----------



## venkiee

291 pages... still no expert want to advise me...plz.. refer to the diagram enclosed and advise if this is Ok..


----------



## nineball

venkiee said:


> 291 pages... still no expert want to advise me...plz.. refer to the diagram enclosed and advise if this is Ok..


personally i would run the comps active off the 4 channel, rears powered by the ms-8 on 5 and 6, sub on 7. 

why do you have 6 lines of input going to the ms-8?


----------



## 14642

dentalpain said:


> Right, thanks for you input. I understand the slight difference b/t usb vs 3.5. I was really wondering if anyone has used a product like the fiio for mobile audio with good result. I believe they have products that work with both usb (D/A) and 3.5mm (A/D) although usb host control is only available on honeycomb (my galaxy tab has this OS). I love the SQ I get from my 3.5mm out running straight into the MS8. I have to be careful to set the input back to HU to avoid the disconnect "pop" but that is pretty easy.
> 
> EDIT: These have really good reviews over on amazon. Unfortunately, I am lazy and listen to amazon mp3 (256 IIRC)


I also listen exclusively to MP3 at 256 from Amazon or 320 from Zune. Sounds fine.


----------



## 14642

lavesa said:


> Hi Andy,
> 
> Would there be a way to configure this scenario where the front speakers could have a HP of 100 and the mid-bass under the seats have a band pass of 80-400?


No, and there's a reason for that. Overlapping like that leads to far more problems than it solves--every time. In cars it's best to minimize the number of speakers mounted all over the car all playing the same thing. 

Someone will come here and disagree, but I've been doing this for 25 years and used to believe that it was cool to have the midbass and the sub playing the same thing and that it helped with "bass up front". It doesn't. It sucks and it's one of the reasons that so many factory systems that include subs sound so bad--many factory systems are tuned this way and it's just WRONG. 

One day, a long time ago, I had this very conversation with a very well known and very successful IASCA competitor. He and another very well known competitor had been tuning on the car for days and the midbass was nasty--thick, undefined, all over the car, completely unnatural sounding. Fortunately, his EQ had memory slots, so I asked him to save what he had and we retuned. We used a conventional arrangement instead of the overlap and it was way better. He'll never admit it, though.


----------



## 14642

venkiee said:


> 291 pages... still no expert want to advise me...plz.. refer to the diagram enclosed and advise if this is Ok..


Here's what I would do:

use the 4-channel amp for front mids and tweeters. Connect MS-8's output channels 1,2,3,and 4 to that amp. Use MS-8's speaker outputs for the rear. Connect them to speaker outputs 5 and 6. Use outputs 7 and 8 to go to the amp you'll use for the sub.

Then:

Sub= 2
Subsonic Filter= 20Hz, 12dB/octave 
Sub/Front crossover 80Hz 24dB/oct
Front=2-way
Front crossover= 3500Hz, 24dB/octave
Sides= 1-way (Your rear speakers must be entered as sides in MS-8--this is how the menu works. Has nothing to do with location or the sound)
Side crossover= 100Hz, 24dB/octave.


----------



## 14642

nineball said:


> personally i would run the comps active off the 4 channel, rears powered by the ms-8 on 5 and 6, sub on 7.
> 
> why do you have 6 lines of input going to the ms-8?


Right. Use only front right and left outputs of your aftermarket head unit. Plug them into channels 1 and 2 (2 is next to 1, not under it). Then, choose "skip input setup" when you set up MS-8. No need for the calibration disc.


----------



## t3sn4f2

dentalpain said:


> Andy, would something like a Fiio DAC/headphone amp improve sound quality in my system.
> Fiio's E17 Alpen headphone amplifier 'peaks' performance -- Engadget
> 
> I am running a driod bionic 3.5mm out into the ms8 directly.


I'd get a car audio specific JL Audio CL-RLC over a portable headphone amp. You also get an excellent quality handy little master volume knob as a perk. And you don't pay for features you won't likely use.


----------



## Chrisw21

Lots of talk of the "jet engine noise" lately!!!! I experienced something one time but I'm not sure if its the same as others have described. After doing a set up, I got a horrible noise *when I unplugged the mic*. I still had the unit powered up when I unplugged (there's no mention in the manual regarding unplugging with power on or off). I've done additional set ups since then with no issues. I love the MS-8 and will continue to play around with different set ups. This level of car audio is fairly new to me and I've never actually heard a competition quality set up, so I'm not sure what I should be listening for or when to stop tuning! I just take some notes after every re-tune and eventually I'll decide on what I like and stick with it. Maybe in the mean time I'll try to find a local competition and see if I can listen to some of the competitors.


----------



## Nathan_h

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Connect the front speakers to outputs 1 and 2. Connect the under-seat woofers to outputs 3 and 4. Connect the rear speakers to outputs 5 and 6. Then, choose "none" for subs. Identify the front as 2-way. Choose 30Hz as the subsonic filter, 12dB/octave. Choose 200Hz as the front hi/low crossover, 24db/octave. Choose 100Hz 24 dB/octave for sides. No rear.
> 
> Then, use the subwoofer level control in MS-8 to boost the bass. This will provide good midbass, an appropriate crossover for the front mids and the ability to adjust the low bass as if you had a sub.
> 
> I've done this many times in 3-series BMWs and it works great.


Subwoofer level control, or the multi band equalizer?

I tried this with the EQ (I read this post too quickly) and found with test tones I needed essentially maximum boost below 80hz to get 80hz and below up to the level of 125 hz. Maybe that's right....

UPDATE: I should have used the sub control. Will do so and see. Thanks!


----------



## venkiee

nineball said:


> personally i would run the comps active off the 4 channel, rears powered by the ms-8 on 5 and 6, sub on 7.
> 
> why do you have 6 lines of input going to the ms-8?


It is only from HU to MS-8 and then to amps. may be my diagram goof-up..

Do you mean that I connect only front to 4ch amp and rear and sub direct to MS-8?? so that I can knock off the 2ch amp totally??

appreciate bit of briefing


----------



## venkiee

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Here's what I would do:
> 
> use the 4-channel amp for front mids and tweeters. Connect MS-8's output channels 1,2,3,and 4 to that amp. Use MS-8's speaker outputs for the rear. Connect them to speaker outputs 5 and 6. Use outputs 7 and 8 to go to the amp you'll use for the sub.
> 
> Then:
> 
> Sub= 2
> Subsonic Filter= 20Hz, 12dB/octave
> Sub/Front crossover 80Hz 24dB/oct
> Front=2-way
> Front crossover= 3500Hz, 24dB/octave
> Sides= 1-way (Your rear speakers must be entered as sides in MS-8--this is how the menu works. Has nothing to do with location or the sound)
> Side crossover= 100Hz, 24dB/octave.


Thanks Andy.. you mean to say that I can knock off the 2ch amp totally and plug to MS-8??

FYI, My sub is Boschmann 800w tube (passive) which I designed for optimum listening with respect to my sedan cabin volume... not meant for a boom box...kinda'


----------



## outsiders

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Here's what I would do:
> 
> use the 4-channel amp for front mids and tweeters. Connect MS-8's output channels 1,2,3,and 4 to that amp. Use MS-8's speaker outputs for the rear. Connect them to speaker outputs 5 and 6. Use outputs 7 and 8 to go to the amp you'll use for the sub.
> 
> Then:
> 
> Sub= 2
> Subsonic Filter= 20Hz, 12dB/octave
> Sub/Front crossover 80Hz 24dB/oct
> Front=2-way
> Front crossover= 3500Hz, 24dB/octave
> Sides= 1-way (Your rear speakers must be entered as sides in MS-8--this is how the menu works. Has nothing to do with location or the sound)
> Side crossover= 100Hz, 24dB/octave.


running this exact set up but with a small center channel coax powered off ms-8. what x-over setting would you recommend?


----------



## nineball

venkiee said:


> It is only from HU to MS-8 and then to amps. may be my diagram goof-up..
> 
> Do you mean that I connect only front to 4ch amp and rear and sub direct to MS-8?? so that I can knock off the 2ch amp totally??
> 
> appreciate bit of briefing


no, you use the 2 channel amp for your sub (but i have no idea what equipment you are actually running to be specific). andy already laid out how to set the outputs from the ms-8.


----------



## venkiee

nineball said:


> no, you use the 2 channel amp for your sub (but i have no idea what equipment you are actually running to be specific). andy already laid out how to set the outputs from the ms-8.


Oh.. Oh... I got it now...Please see my corrected diagram and comment...


----------



## i_theo

Is it possible just to use 1 side (rear) channel so i will have 2 way center channel since the center channel is the most important in L7 ? (I'll put just one rear speaker in the back .. )

I know L7 will reverse one channel at the stereo rear channel .. but who knows if it can work .. If it works which channel should i choose SL or SR ? 

So .. It will be like this ...

FL Hi – Front left (midrange/tweeter combination with passive crossover)
FR Hi – Front right (midrange/tweeter combination with passive crossover)
FL Lo – Front left low (midbass)
FR Lo – Front right low (midbass)
Ctr Hi – Center (tweeter)
Ctr Lo – Center (woofer)
*SL – Side left or SR – Side right => Only 1 Channel.*
Sub 1 – Subwoofer 1

Thanks


----------



## subwoofery

i_theo said:


> Is it possible just to use 1 side (rear) channel so i will have 2 way center channel since the center channel is the most important in L7 ? (I'll put just one rear speaker in the back .. )
> 
> I know L7 will reverse one channel at the stereo rear channel .. but who knows if it can work .. If it works which channel should i choose SL or SR ?
> 
> So .. It will be like this ...
> 
> FL Hi – Front left (midrange/tweeter combination with passive crossover)
> FR Hi – Front right (midrange/tweeter combination with passive crossover)
> FL Lo – Front left low (midbass)
> FR Lo – Front right low (midbass)
> Ctr Hi – Center (tweeter)
> Ctr Lo – Center (woofer)
> *SL – Side left or SR – Side right => Only 1 Channel.*
> Sub 1 – Subwoofer 1
> 
> Thanks


Stupid question but are you sure you can choose "Ctr Hi" (1 output) and "Ctr Lo" (another output)? If the MS-8 doesn't let you assign 2 center channels then your configuration won't work... 

Kelvin


----------



## i_theo

subwoofery said:


> Stupid question but are you sure you can choose "Ctr Hi" (1 output) and "Ctr Lo" (another output)? If the MS-8 doesn't let you assign 2 center channels then your configuration won't work...
> 
> Kelvin


Maybe my english is bad .. but i read the manual .. are you ?

*Center speaker*

The MS-8 will then display Xover Setup > Sub , Front , Center. Select Center.

The MS-8 will then display Center, with the options None, 1 way, 2 way. Use the Up
and Down navigation buttons to highlight one of these options, and press the Select
button to select it. The configuration of your system’s center speaker determines
your choice.

For example: If your center speaker system consists of a coaxial speaker or
component with its own passive crossover connected to one of the MS-8’s outputs
(either its speaker outputs or its line outputs connected to an outboard power
amplifier), choose 1 way. If your center speaker consists of a component system
where the tweeter and the midrange will each be connected to separate MS-8 output
channels, choose 2 way.

CALIBRATION/setup

NOTE: The available center-speaker, side-speaker and rear-speaker options will
depend on the number of MS-8 channels that are available after you have set up
the subwoofer and front speakers. For example, if you are using two subwoofer
channels and three-way front speakers, then all eight of MS-8’s channels will have
been allocated, and the only option that will be displayed for the center speaker
(as well as the side and rear speakers) will be None. If you have selected a single
subwoofer channel and three-way front speakers, seven of MS-8’s eight channels
will have been allocated, and the options displayed for the center speaker will be
None and 1.

The MS-8 will then display Center Hi Pass. This screen enables you to choose
the high-pass filter for the center speaker. Use the Left and Right navigation
buttons to display a frequency between 50Hz and 10kHz, and press the Select
button to select it. If you’re not sure which frequency to choose, we recommend
using 80Hz.

The MS-8 will then display Center Hi Pass Slope. This screen enables you to
choose the subsonic filter’s attenuation rate. Use the Up and Down navigation
buttons to highlight a rate, and press the Select button to select it. If you’re not
sure which rate to choose, we recommend using 24dB/octave.

If in Step 2 you selected 2 way:
a) The MS-8 will display Center Lo/Hi Xover. This screen enables you to choose
the crossover frequency between the center midrange and tweeter. Use the Left
and Right navigation buttons to display a frequency between 50Hz and 10kHz,
and press the Select button to select it. If you’re using separate tweeters
connected to the MS-8’s amplifier or to an additional amplifier, we recommend
using a setting of 3500Hz or higher.
b) The MS-8 will then display Center Lo/Hi Slope. This screen enables you to
choose the rate of attenuation of the filter between the midrange and tweeter. Use
the Up and Down navigation buttons to highlight a filter slope, and press the
Select button to select it. If you’re using separate tweeters (as discussed in Step
5a), we recommend using 24dB/octave.


----------



## subwoofery

i_theo said:


> *Maybe my english is bad .. but i read the manual .. are you ?*
> 
> *Center speaker*
> 
> The MS-8 will then display Xover Setup > Sub , Front , Center. Select Center.
> 
> The MS-8 will then display Center, with the options None, 1 way, 2 way. Use the Up
> and Down navigation buttons to highlight one of these options, and press the Select
> button to select it. The configuration of your system’s center speaker determines
> your choice.
> 
> For example: If your center speaker system consists of a coaxial speaker or
> component with its own passive crossover connected to one of the MS-8’s outputs
> (either its speaker outputs or its line outputs connected to an outboard power
> amplifier), choose 1 way. If your center speaker consists of a component system
> where the tweeter and the midrange will each be connected to separate MS-8 output
> channels, choose 2 way.
> 
> CALIBRATION/setup
> 
> NOTE: The available center-speaker, side-speaker and rear-speaker options will
> depend on the number of MS-8 channels that are available after you have set up
> the subwoofer and front speakers. For example, if you are using two subwoofer
> channels and three-way front speakers, then all eight of MS-8’s channels will have
> been allocated, and the only option that will be displayed for the center speaker
> (as well as the side and rear speakers) will be None. If you have selected a single
> subwoofer channel and three-way front speakers, seven of MS-8’s eight channels
> will have been allocated, and the options displayed for the center speaker will be
> None and 1.
> 
> The MS-8 will then display Center Hi Pass. This screen enables you to choose
> the high-pass filter for the center speaker. Use the Left and Right navigation
> buttons to display a frequency between 50Hz and 10kHz, and press the Select
> button to select it. If you’re not sure which frequency to choose, we recommend
> using 80Hz.
> 
> The MS-8 will then display Center Hi Pass Slope. This screen enables you to
> choose the subsonic filter’s attenuation rate. Use the Up and Down navigation
> buttons to highlight a rate, and press the Select button to select it. If you’re not
> sure which rate to choose, we recommend using 24dB/octave.
> 
> If in Step 2 you selected 2 way:
> a) The MS-8 will display Center Lo/Hi Xover. This screen enables you to choose
> the crossover frequency between the center midrange and tweeter. Use the Left
> and Right navigation buttons to display a frequency between 50Hz and 10kHz,
> and press the Select button to select it. If you’re using separate tweeters
> connected to the MS-8’s amplifier or to an additional amplifier, we recommend
> using a setting of 3500Hz or higher.
> b) The MS-8 will then display Center Lo/Hi Slope. This screen enables you to
> choose the rate of attenuation of the filter between the midrange and tweeter. Use
> the Up and Down navigation buttons to highlight a filter slope, and press the
> Select button to select it. If you’re using separate tweeters (as discussed in Step
> 5a), we recommend using 24dB/octave.


Ok... My turn. I've read the whole thread - did you? Because the answer to your question about using 1 rear speaker is in the thread. 
I've read all 292 pages and might have forgotten that you could assign the center channel as a 2-way. Thanks, 

Kelvin


----------



## venkiee

Andy.. I have a question for you...

You might have seen my setup as I posted... I am not a boom boom type listener... and more like studio kinda...

In this case, can I remove all the amplifiers and hook up the speakers and sub to MS-8??

Will MS-8's amplification be sufficient to handle all the speakers and sub??

Your detailed answer will be appreciated...


----------



## jon302v8

Hey I just wanted to say how great the MS-8 is for quickly reconfiguring a system! I was having a problem with vocals in my 2-way stock location setup. I installed a pair of Morel mids in the dash and in 5 minutes I had new 3-way crossover points and tuned TA/EQ. The system sounds fantastic!

It's like digital photography vs film... once you get used to the "instant feedback" I can't imagine going back to painstaking manual tuning after every system reconfiguration.


----------



## i_theo

subwoofery said:


> Ok... My turn. I've read the whole thread - did you? Because the answer to your question about using 1 rear speaker is in the thread.
> I've read all 292 pages and might have forgotten that you could assign the center channel as a 2-way. Thanks,
> 
> Kelvin


Yes Kelvin and thanks for your contribution in this thread seriously.

I read 292 pages, JBL FAQ, JBL Manual and your posts too .. seriously .. I get shock when you say i ask a stupid question. 

Untill now i'm sure no one using single rear channel for 2 way center channel to utilized full 8 channel of JBL MS-8 discussed in this thread .. i maybe wrong .. but i'm sure i'm right.

I just want to know is it works or not in theory ? because i prefer using 2 way in my center channel than 2 channel for rear .. so i can put the 1 rear channel left in the middle back roof like pionkey build log but only use 1 rear channel to make ambience and rear fill concept for sense of large space.

One thing that i don't know is L7 reverse 1 channel in the rear so where is it SL or SR ? So at Calibration and Setup i can choose SL or SR.

Rear Channel really effect for live recording (and every out of phase information to sent to the rear). I can't hear the different when i shut off one channel of the rear after calibration. 

So i think to use only 1 rear channel and maximizing the Center that avoid me to make pasif xover .. my experience is a cap doesn't work in the center channel because the midbass will roll off naturally above beaming point and some time i hear the break up noise and sibilance and distortoin from tweeter playing midrange at upper midrange Frequency. 

Using 2 way MS-8 will Level Matching between my 6.5 Inch Center Midbass and 1 Inch Tweeter pointing at windshield and i can use 24db step xover in the beaming point in my midbass and to make EQ more easily.

Thanks very much.


----------



## subwoofery

i_theo said:


> Yes Kelvin and thanks for your contribution in this thread seriously.
> 
> I read 292 pages, JBL FAQ, JBL Manual and your posts too .. seriously .. I get shock when you say i ask a stupid question.
> 
> Untill now i'm sure no one using single rear channel for 2 way center channel to utilized full 8 channel of JBL MS-8 discussed in this thread .. i maybe wrong .. but i'm sure i'm right.
> 
> I just want to know is it works or not in theory ? because i prefer using 2 way in my center channel than 2 channel for rear .. so i can put the 1 rear channel left in the middle back roof like pionkey build log but only use 1 rear channel to make ambience and rear fill concept for sense of large space.
> 
> One thing that i don't know is L7 reverse 1 channel in the rear so where is it SL or SR ? So at Calibration and Setup i can choose SL or SR.
> 
> Rear Channel really effect for live recording (and every out of phase information to sent to the rear). I can't hear the different when i shut off one channel of the rear after calibration.
> 
> So i think to use only 1 rear channel and maximizing the Center that avoid me to make pasif xover .. my experience is a cap doesn't work in the center channel because the midbass will roll off naturally above beaming point and some time i hear the break up noise and sibilance and distortoin from tweeter playing midrange at upper midrange Frequency.
> 
> Using 2 way MS-8 will Level Matching between my 6.5 Inch Center Midbass and 1 Inch Tweeter pointing at windshield and i can use 24db step xover in the beaming point in my midbass and to make EQ more easily.
> 
> Thanks very much.


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1064001-post3438.html 

Kelvin


----------



## duro78

From what I've read in this thread is it really better to run the front stage completely off of off the ms8 or by an external amp? I'm redoing my setup to a 3way plus sub. I had planned to either
1. Run my tweets on the ms8, midbass and midrange on 4ch, and subs on mono amp.
2. Run tweets and midrange on ms8 and bridge midbass on 4ch, subs on mono amp
3. Run entire front stage off of ms8 but midbass needs a min of 60w plus so I don't think this will work.
Either way my frontstage will be split. I really didn't want to add a 3rd amp although I have several sitting around but space is an issue and the ms8 doesn't have enough power to push my entire front stage (midbass to be exact). Running rs180, vifa xt25, TB w3 and 10w6 subs. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## slinger1

jon302v8 said:


> Hey I just wanted to say how great the MS-8 is for quickly reconfiguring a system! I was having a problem with vocals in my 2-way stock location setup. I installed a pair of Morel mids in the dash and in 5 minutes I had new 3-way crossover points and tuned TA/EQ. The system sounds fantastic!
> 
> It's like digital photography vs film... once you get used to the "instant feedback" I can't imagine going back to painstaking manual tuning after every system reconfiguration.


I also am a big fan of this MS8 now...the first 2 days after install i was really starting to think i just wasted 500 dollars...But after many times wearing the headset and trying different volume levels and finally getting my amps closer to matching.. my system sounds better than it ever has (and it sounded good) with all types of music from xm radio to my sd chip or usb with mp3s...It made me say "wow" atleast 3 times this morning coming home from work listening to Edgar Winters ..Frankenstine...and im still only using 5 channels so it can get even better..(i think)....I have very limited tuning skills and still really dont know what freqs. to send to the speakers..or what the db slopes even do...nor did i read all 300 pages in this thread..lol...but when i started looking into getting the MS8 (couple weeks ago) i joined this site and read many of them..i saw some guys here that knew alot about this processor and really helping with any trouble or questions on setups that users were having..i musta got enough info from them because my chit jamms.....Thanks again to everyone who made sugestions for my setup and that provide all the great info on this site.....I live in the KC area and if anyone is close thats into sq systems id love to let ya listen to mine and get advice on what to do next....im hooked now and this was the missing peice of my system....

Glenn


----------



## 14642

Nathan_h said:


> Subwoofer level control, or the multi band equalizer?
> 
> I tried this with the EQ (I read this post too quickly) and found with test tones I needed essentially maximum boost below 80hz to get 80hz and below up to the level of 125 hz. Maybe that's right....
> 
> UPDATE: I should have used the sub control. Will do so and see. Thanks!


Reverse the polarity of your sub and try again.


----------



## 14642

slinger1 said:


> I also am a big fan of this MS8 now...the first 2 days after install i was really starting to think i just wasted 500 dollars...But after many times wearing the headset and trying different volume levels and finally getting my amps closer to matching.. my system sounds better than it ever has (and it sounded good) with all types of music from xm radio to my sd chip or usb with mp3s...It made me say "wow" atleast 3 times this morning coming home from work listening to Edgar Winters ..Frankenstine...and im still only using 5 channels so it can get even better..(i think)....I have very limited tuning skills and still really dont know what freqs. to send to the speakers..or what the db slopes even do...nor did i read all 300 pages in this thread..lol...but when i started looking into getting the MS8 (couple weeks ago) i joined this site and read many of them..i saw some guys here that knew alot about this processor and really helping with any trouble or questions on setups that users were having..i musta got enough info from them because my chit jamms.....Thanks again to everyone who made sugestions for my setup and that provide all the great info on this site.....I live in the KC area and if anyone is close thats into sq systems id love to let ya listen to mine and get advice on what to do next....im hooked now and this was the missing peice of my system....
> 
> Glenn


^^This is why I haven't quit and opened a pizza shop.


----------



## 14642

i_theo said:


> Yes Kelvin and thanks for your contribution in this thread seriously.
> 
> I read 292 pages, JBL FAQ, JBL Manual and your posts too .. seriously .. I get shock when you say i ask a stupid question.
> 
> Untill now i'm sure no one using single rear channel for 2 way center channel to utilized full 8 channel of JBL MS-8 discussed in this thread .. i maybe wrong .. but i'm sure i'm right.
> 
> I just want to know is it works or not in theory ? because i prefer using 2 way in my center channel than 2 channel for rear .. so i can put the 1 rear channel left in the middle back roof like pionkey build log but only use 1 rear channel to make ambience and rear fill concept for sense of large space.
> 
> One thing that i don't know is L7 reverse 1 channel in the rear so where is it SL or SR ? So at Calibration and Setup i can choose SL or SR.
> 
> Rear Channel really effect for live recording (and every out of phase information to sent to the rear). I can't hear the different when i shut off one channel of the rear after calibration.
> 
> So i think to use only 1 rear channel and maximizing the Center that avoid me to make pasif xover .. my experience is a cap doesn't work in the center channel because the midbass will roll off naturally above beaming point and some time i hear the break up noise and sibilance and distortoin from tweeter playing midrange at upper midrange Frequency.
> 
> Using 2 way MS-8 will Level Matching between my 6.5 Inch Center Midbass and 1 Inch Tweeter pointing at windshield and i can use 24db step xover in the beaming point in my midbass and to make EQ more easily.
> 
> Thanks very much.


One side channel isn't an option. Just use a passive on your center or an amp with a built in crossover. The biggest advantage of the 2-way between mid and tweeter is separate time alignment (for the mid), but it won't matter for your system because the mid and tweeter are in nearly the same place and mush of what you hear will be reflected off the windshield.


----------



## 14642

venkiee said:


> Andy.. I have a question for you...
> 
> You might have seen my setup as I posted... I am not a boom boom type listener... and more like studio kinda...
> 
> In this case, can I remove all the amplifiers and hook up the speakers and sub to MS-8??
> 
> Will MS-8's amplification be sufficient to handle all the speakers and sub??
> 
> Your detailed answer will be appreciated...


Running all of the speakers off MS-8 works fine, so long as it's enough power to make you happy. I recommend using a bigger amp for the sub. We (people) like about 9dB more bass than mids and highs in cars and ittakes 8x the power to provide that 9dB extra (if the speaker sensitivity is about the same). Use a bigger amp for the bass.


----------



## nineball

venkiee said:


> Oh.. Oh... I got it now...Please see my corrected diagram and comment...


ya that will work fine, but now you have 8 channels going from the hu to the ms-8. hopefully that is just a mix up in your diagram.


----------



## rdv

venkiee said:


> Andy.. I have a question for you...
> 
> You might have seen my setup as I posted... I am not a boom boom type listener... and more like studio kinda...
> 
> In this case, can I remove all the amplifiers and hook up the speakers and sub to MS-8??
> 
> Will MS-8's amplification be sufficient to handle all the speakers and sub??
> 
> Your detailed answer will be appreciated...


I tried this config for a while, no amps, everything powered by the ms8. i used a dual 6" bazooka sub and it worked fine. I did raise the sub level and low eq as i prefer a little more bass. I felt my settings were a bit too high so I eventually added an amp to power the subs and will soon change the bazooka for a single 10". It sounds really good as it is, specially for everyday listening but i just want more bass from time to time.


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## naiku

quietfly said:


> I recommend running the rears/sides off of the MS-8 only if you have no other choice. your front stage FL,FR,C should be externally amped. (or all on the ms-8) Mixing and matching CAN work, but often can be problematic.
> 
> as for your center speaker if you can't fit anything bigger try the Aurasound Whisper. they are 2inchers with a good reputation.


I think this is what confuses me, maybe not confused, but throws me off. For example, my amp is rated at 4 x 75W. Most of the speakers I have seen that I can get in my center location, are typically rated around 15W. 

Does that not mean that I would need to keep the gain on my amp down considerably lower on the center channel? Which would then cause problems with my fronts being so much louder than my center? Or does that not matter?

Also, does it matter if I assign the center speaker to channel 3 or 4 on my amp?


----------



## nineball

naiku said:


> I think this is what confuses me, maybe not confused, but throws me off. For example, my amp is rated at 4 x 75W. Most of the speakers I have seen that I can get in my center location, are typically rated around 15W.
> 
> Does that not mean that I would need to keep the gain on my amp down considerably lower on the center channel? Which would then cause problems with my fronts being so much louder than my center? Or does that not matter?
> 
> Also, does it matter if I assign the center speaker to channel 3 or 4 on my amp?


your center channel should be on par with your front stage. if you have mids that can take 100 the center should be able to handle the same. 

you can assign any channel to any speaker (or amp) you want, just make sure the sub(s) is not on 1 or 2 of the ms-8.


----------



## duro78

Andy or anyone qualified to answer, Is there an issue splitting the front stage between the ms8 and an external amp? Will be Running a 3 way plus sub, currently running 2 amps for a 2way plus sub and didn't want to add another so just wanted to run tweets off of ms8.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## naiku

nineball said:


> your center channel should be on par with your front stage. if you have mids that can take 100 the center should be able to handle the same.


That's what I thought, the hard part is now finding a small enough speaker that can take that power. I am guessing I have room for a 3" at best. Will know for sure later when I take the dash apart.


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## jon302v8

duro78 said:


> Andy or anyone qualified to answer, Is there an issue splitting the front stage between the ms8 and an external amp? Will be Running a 3 way plus sub, currently running 2 amps for a 2way plus sub and didn't want to add another so just wanted to run tweets off of ms8.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


I'm currently running just the tweets of the MS-8. It seems to work fine but I haven't tried to push max SPL yet.

The biggest issue I found is that you can't control the gain of the tweeters. I've read the MS-8 likes to be somewhat level matched _before_ calibration. So if you do that it restricts where your other amp gains can be set - they must be set to level match the internal MS-8 amp.


----------



## Machine7

I read the posts about putting caps on the tweeters for protection. 
My local car audio sold me PAC audio bb-4pr which are rated 0-1.2khz(4ohm)
Is this the right product to protect from any accidental jet noises from the MS8?

So far I love what this engineering marvel is doing for my SQ!
Can't wait to take my tweeters off ms8 power and see if it raises my max db from the mids


----------



## naiku

Just got back up from the garage after looking at the center speaker opening. To be honest, I am not sure I will bother with one. There is literally no space to get anything bigger than a 3" in there. 

I could not actually get the stock speaker out, half of it is covered by the top of the dash itself. In front of where it sits is the defroster vent, which I am not prepared to hack up, not to mention in the middle of there sits the light sensor. To the back of where the stock speaker sits is the windshield. 

I am somewhat disappointed as I really wanted to try out a set up with a center channel. But, the fact that I cannot get a decent sized speaker in there, much less one that will take 75W of power, means I have to rethink my plans. At this point I may go back to using an Alpine, I previously had an H650, and only sold it because I wanted to utilize a center channel/Logic 7. I don't know if I personally, will hear the difference between a $200 H660 or a $450 MS8. I never had any issues with the H650, and it sounded good. Bear in mind that I am using the OEM deck, and essentially a budget system (talking $600 for speakers/amps).

If anyone has any experience with a center speaker in a 2006 Audi A4, then let me know. If something can be figured out I would still love to try it.


----------



## duro78

jon302v8 said:


> I'm currently running just the tweets of the MS-8. It seems to work fine but I haven't tried to push max SPL yet.
> 
> The biggest issue I found is that you can't control the gain of the tweeters. I've read the MS-8 likes to be somewhat level matched _before_ calibration. So if you do that it restricts where your other amp gains can be set - they must be set to level match the internal MS-8 amp.


That's gonna be a problem because one thing I had to do was play with the gains when I was running a 2way to get the output just right. Plus my tweets are rated at 50w and I prefer having the headroom. Thanks bro

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## slinger1

If i replace my battery in my truck will the MS8 lose all its xover and other settings when i disconnect it.??


----------



## venkiee

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Running all of the speakers off MS-8 works fine, so long as it's enough power to make you happy. I recommend using a bigger amp for the sub. We (people) like about 9dB more bass than mids and highs in cars and ittakes 8x the power to provide that 9dB extra (if the speaker sensitivity is about the same). Use a bigger amp for the bass.


Andy

Thanks for your prompt reply. One more doubt... My friends have been telling that replacing rear stock speakers doesnt make sense.... what is your advise...??

Can I replace only front comp. set alone?? (Planning JBL) suggest me a very good model from JBL


----------



## venkiee

slinger1 said:


> If i replace my battery in my truck will the MS8 lose all its xover and other settings when i disconnect it.??


Disconnecting from battery may not affect the settings... make sure that you have saved it as favorites... however, it is safe to note down the parameters of your settings...


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## Machine7

slinger1 said:


> If i replace my battery in my truck will the MS8 lose all its xover and other settings when i disconnect it.??


I bought my ms8 used. It sat for a couple months in a box. When I plugged it in nothing worked. It still had all of the previous owners channel selections programmed! So I cannot say for certain it holds everything, I would tend to believe that it does...


----------



## CobraVin

Hi all, I'm finishing up my install and looking forward to firing up the MS_8 for the first time, I have been following this thread from the beginning and bought my unit during the great Amazon sale but didn't have a vehicle to install it in so it sat in the box until now. I had previously cut and pasted a bunch of posts from Andy and others to help me but lost them from a hard drive crash.

I'm looking for opinions on setting up crossover freq and slopes as well as time alignment tricks (or any other tips or opinions)since I am running passives on the tw/mid and center channel and they are not exactly the same distance away.

I wondered if I would get better results during setup if there was a way to time align to one or the other only then hook both back up. Or if anyone has any other tricks that may help my specific install based on my drivers and placement (listed below)

I'm also wondering if their is a preferred method for setting up mid, mid-bass and sub levels since I have noticed some have had issues and have diffent methods they feel work best

I'm familiar with my speakers and the ranges they played in past vehicles, but new to the MS-8 as well as these spx crossovers with all their phase and level adjustments, (should i set them flat and just past through the MS-8 signal?) so I would like to get in the ball park from the start here, thanks.

The car is a 2009 G37x coupe

3way front, Scan rev 6-1/2 in lower doors on their own MS-8 channels
Scan 2904 tweets in upper door where the stock mids use to be because they wouldn't fit where the stock tweets used to be, and scan 12m(4") fiber glassed in lower pillar in dash corners about 4" higher and 4" further away from listener than the tweets,this is as close as I could get them to the tweets, I know this isn't ideal since they are on the same MS-8 channel,but its the best I can do without changing drivers, I am using alpine spx passive x-overs which used variations of these same scan drivers

Zapco c2k 2.0 (50w x 2) powering the mids
Zapco c2k 3.0 (75w x 2) powering the tweets
Blau V2100 (100w x 2) powering the woofers 

Center ch is a Scan Rev 15M (5-1/2) with Alpines version of the Scan 2904 tweet again using an Spx x over, I had to modify underneath for it to fit and there was no other tweeter mounting option either, its about an 1/8th of an inch from the windshield
Blau V2100 (300w x 1 or 100w x 2) my choice, crossovers are bi-amp-able

rears are stock 2ohm Bose 6x9's on the rear deck run off MS-8, I was going to add tweets to them, instead of using the small rear side speakers that are also there.

two Aura 10" subs in trunk powered by a Blau V4100 (300w x 2)

so based on all those variables how would you set this up ?

Maybe its because I have been listening to stock systems and haven't had my gear installed in anything for a while but I cant remember being this excited about finishing an install, can't wait to hear this set up

Thanks


----------



## Nathan_h

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Connect the front speakers to outputs 1 and 2. Connect the under-seat woofers to outputs 3 and 4. Connect the rear speakers to outputs 5 and 6. Then, choose "none" for subs. Identify the front as 2-way. Choose 30Hz as the subsonic filter, 12dB/octave. Choose 200Hz as the front hi/low crossover, 24db/octave. Choose 100Hz 24 dB/octave for sides. No rear.
> 
> Then, use the subwoofer level control in MS-8 to boost the bass. This will provide good midbass, an appropriate crossover for the front mids and the ability to adjust the low bass as if you had a sub.
> 
> I've done this many times in 3-series BMWs and it works great.


Well, after I paid proper attention to your instructions, and adjusted the SUB level control instead of the multiband EQ, I got a little closer. But it's still feeling a little thin.

Note that this is a 1 series and not a 3 series BMW, but it's *almost* the same situation (smaller cabin, and no center speaker, but otherwise the same in most meaningful ways).

One other recommendation I have heard is to run the underseat woofers as subs, in the setup routine, perhaps because of the frequency ranges the MS-8 uses for level calibration? In theory, the underseat woofers are supposed to be handling 40-200hz, and the two way doors with built in crossover (so they appear like a one way speaker to the amp/processor) cover above 200hz.

Question: If one calls the front speakers "one way", what frequency range does the MS8 use for level setting?


----------



## taibanl

Nathan_h said:


> Question: If one calls the front speakers "one way", what frequency range does the MS8 use for level setting?





AdamS said:


> FYI - The level is based on the loudest speaker in the 300 Hz to 3KHz range. If the loudest driver is completely in that range, then the level is based on that driver. Otherwise, if your crossover is in between these two numbers, your reference level could be based on 2 or more drivers.



...but now that I've referenced that post; I'll rephrase. Its also the case that the MS-8 is limited by all of the drivers in the system, for instance, running the rear stage only off of MS-8 power (for which there is another workaround for trying to get more headroom out of the system). Obviously the MS-8 runs out of power somewhere. I take it that it goes as far as it can, in _trying_ to set levels based on the loudest speaker, until it runs out of headroom in which one of two things happens


The level of the louder speaker is reduced to match that of the limfac speaker.
The loudest speaker continues to overpower the others, which are maxed out with available MS-8 power

I think its the first.


----------



## Nathan_h

I hope it's the former. That's what I would call a "graceful" way to hit a wall.


----------



## Lateralis

Hi guys, 

I've been lurking in here for a while and there's a ton of good info in here. Shifting through all of it is pretty tough though. So here's my situation.

My setup is going to be 3 way active front, Rear doors, and a sub. I have 2 4ch amps and a 1 mono. Since the MS-8 is only 8 ch I was thinking run the setup without the sub. Than once the system is calibrated "Y" tap the lines for the Midbass and run that to the Mono amp so that the sub would be on pace with the front midbass. 

Is this a good idea or should I just say screw the rear fill, bridge 1 of the 4ch's to give the midbass's more juice, and open up 2ch's on the ms-8 so it can configure with the sub?

Thanks for the input!


----------



## taibanl

Lateralis said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I've been lurking in here for a while and there's a ton of good info in here. Shifting through all of it is pretty tough though. So here's my situation.
> 
> My setup is going to be 3 way active front, Rear doors, and a sub. I have 2 4ch amps and a 1 mono. Since the MS-8 is only 8 ch I was thinking run the setup without the sub. Than once the system is calibrated "Y" tap the lines for the Midbass and run that to the Mono amp so that the sub would be on pace with the front midbass.
> 
> Is this a good idea or should I just say screw the rear fill, bridge 1 of the 4ch's to give the midbass's more juice, and open up 2ch's on the ms-8 so it can configure with the sub?
> 
> Thanks for the input!


It certainly CAN be done with good results. I have my mid bass and subs crossed downstream of the MS-8. Whether it's the best option for you I am not sure. Its called the Kaigoss mod and can be done with a few different flavors (either calibrating with or without the sub tap online)

Do your amps have crossovers? Because you could split some of the front stage at the amps also and save channels for sub/center


----------



## Lateralis

taibanl said:


> It certainly CAN be done with good results. I have my mid bass and subs crossed downstream of the MS-8. Whether it's the best option for you I am not sure. Its called the Kaigoss mod and can be done with a few different flavors (either calibrating with or without the sub tap online)
> 
> Do your amps have crossovers? Because you could split some of the front stage at the amps also and save channels for sub/center


My 4ch's are Alpine PDX4.100's. They do have crossovers and the range is 30-400HZ. I was planning on just leaving the crossovers off.


----------



## taibanl

Lateralis said:


> My 4ch's are Alpine PDX4.100's. They do have crossovers and the range is 30-400HZ. I was planning on just leaving the crossovers off.


So the question is: Do you need the MS-8 to time-align each part of the 3 way front stage?

If for example, your mids and tweets are close, you can simply use the amp to cross them and let MS-8 time align them as a single channel, saving two channels.


----------



## musicfan

kaigoss69 said:


> Interested in any responses to your post, as well as your findings after you install the tweeters! BTW, could you not find a solution where the tweeters take over say at 10kHz? The L3SE do very well off-axis. I think if you had to add tweeters, you would want to cut them (the L3SE's) off higher than 4kHz.


Sorry it has taken a while to report back, but I installed the tweeters (JL C5-075ct) alongside the L3SEs in the corners of the dashboard. As several of you predicted, they didn't sound too great wired in parallel with the L3SEs with only the high pass filter (5khz/12db, as it turns out) on the tweets. I replaced the JL filters with a set of 14uF caps (2.8khz) and wired it up as a three way active front stage, no rear fill. After a few tunes at various crossover points in the higher range y'all recommended, I soon discovered that at about 8.5kHz/24db, I got the "HOLY S%^&!" goosebumps tune--magnificent! Not only were the highs fantastic, but even some of the harshness I had been having to EQ out at 1kHz and 2-2.5kHz went away.

The only problem now is how/if to bring back in the side speakers. In order to do so, I'll have to split something downstream (to power 8 speakers and a sub off of the 8 outputs of the MS-8). Originally, I was planning to build a custom passive crossover for the mids & tweets, but after experimenting with 12db slopes, I never could find one that sounded as good as the 24db, so I gave up on the passive plan. 

Plan B is to run 3-way front, 1-way side, and use the kaigoss trick to split out the sub signal off the midbass. Unfortunately, my amps only have 12db crossovers. I experimented with this but could never get a satisfying result; either the bass was localizing to the rear (sub xover too high), or the door panels were resonating too much (midbass xover too low). 

If I put 12db FMOD low pass filters in line to the sub and keep the 12db sub crossover turned on, would these sum to give me a 24db slope? If so, what frequency FMOD should I use? (My sub crossover frequency ranges from 30hz to 150hz at a fixed 12db slope.) I'm assuming that I need a 24db LPF at about 80hz to keep the "bass up front."

Would I also need to put high pass FMODs inline to the midbass channels? They roll off in this range anyway, so I thought they might work with just the 12db filter in the amp.


----------



## Nathan_h

Nathan_h said:


> Well, after I paid proper attention to your instructions, and adjusted the SUB level control instead of the multiband EQ, I got a little closer. But it's still feeling a little thin.
> 
> Note that this is a 1 series and not a 3 series BMW, but it's *almost* the same situation (smaller cabin, and no center speaker, but otherwise the same in most meaningful ways).
> 
> One other recommendation I have heard is to run the underseat woofers as subs, in the setup routine, perhaps because of the frequency ranges the MS-8 uses for level calibration? In theory, the underseat woofers are supposed to be handling 40-200hz, and the two way doors with built in crossover (so they appear like a one way speaker to the amp/processor) cover above 200hz.
> 
> Question: If one calls the front speakers "one way", what frequency range does the MS8 use for level setting?


I ran another setup today, running the underseat woofers as part of a "two way" front setup.

This time, I transitioned between the underseat woofers and the doors (mids and tweets in the a pillars) at 160hz. And bumped up the "Sub" setting in the MS8.

Best combo so far, but I'm sure it can be better. Looking forward to new firmware that can bring out more of this unit's magic. I don't think the current software currently makes the most of what the MS8 is truly capable of. 

But it's way better than the raw oem amp.


----------



## thomasluke

**** this thing! Ya, i said it. Been working for two days now on getting it up and running and it now sounds like ****.
I've tried everything with the gains low, normal and everywhere inbetween. I got know midbass either, little or very overpowering bass and thin weak highs with NO extension at all.
Same xover setting as the passives ... should sound ok. Right? 
Not to me they don't. And stage what ****ing stage? the one thats on the left or right cuz it's not focused at all.
I'm really feeling a "for sale" thread on a mint two day old unit right now.
I mean before this i had all the bass and midbass i wanted just wanted to step it up. If i can't get my **** together with this thing in the next day or two..... **** IT!


----------



## Nathan_h

AdamS said:


> FYI - The level is based on the loudest speaker in the 300 Hz to 3KHz range. If the loudest driver is completely in that range, then the level is based on that driver. Otherwise, if your crossover is in between these two numbers, your reference level could be based on 2 or more drivers.


So the overall system level is based on this process.

But the individual driver levels are based on other data?



AndyW said:


> MS-8 uses 50-80 Hz to figure out the level of the bass. It uses 80-300 to figure out the level of the midbass-midrange.


Arguably in the setup I have, with my woofers (range=40-200hz) as the "bass" part of a two way setup, and my mids+tweeters (range=?-20khz) as the "high" part of a two way setup, the bass test tone might not be great for my woofers, and the midrange tone might be too low in the frequency range for ideal measuring by the MS8 -- and that would give me a sense of what to adjust more.

And if I don't call my woofers "subs", does it even measure the woofers using the 80-300hz tone?

Or maybe I am misunderstanding the difference between what Adam and Andy each wrote.....


----------



## kaigoss69

thomasluke said:


> **** this thing! Ya, i said it. Been working for two days now on getting it up and running and it now sounds like ****.
> I've tried everything with the gains low, normal and everywhere inbetween. I got know midbass either, little or very overpowering bass and thin weak highs with NO extension at all.
> Same xover setting as the passives ... should sound ok. Right?
> Not to me they don't. And stage what ****ing stage? the one thats on the left or right cuz it's not focused at all.
> I'm really feeling a "for sale" thread on a mint two day old unit right now.
> I mean before this i had all the bass and midbass i wanted just wanted to step it up. If i can't get my **** together with this thing in the next day or two..... **** IT!


That time of the month, huh? 

You can be a douche and moan and ***** a bit longer and then sell it, or you can post details about your set-up and we just MAY help you get this thing sounding so friggin' good that you will be cussing for all the right reasons! 

The choice is yours...


----------



## thomasluke

kaigoss69 said:


> That time of the month, huh?
> 
> You can be a douche and moan and ***** a bit longer and then sell it, or you can post details about your set-up and we just MAY help you get this thing sounding so friggin' good that you will be cussing for all the right reasons!
> 
> The choice is yours...


Ok,didnt mean to come come of like a pissed off school girl that needs a midol but......
Nevermind heres the system layout
HU) pioneer 6300 bt
Then the ms-8
Two way front) tweets ran by the ms-8 amp, Mids bridged to an alpine mrv 300 using y adaptors. The fronts are dls rm6's " beast of a mid bass by the way"
subs) memphis pr 10's ported in a prefab for the moment till i seal it tomorrow.
sub amp) jl audio 1200 g-max.

So just to start from scratch i reset the unit. Set it up like this
2 subs mid to low at 80. Two way front mid to high at 4500 both with 24 db slopes.
Tweets had no presence being ran off the ms-8 so i used the alpine to run the tweets and mids and it was a little better.
my problem is it just sounds lifeless dead like the ms8 just sucked it all out.


----------



## kaigoss69

thomasluke said:


> Ok,didnt mean to come come of like a pissed off school girl that needs a midol but......
> Nevermind heres the system layout
> HU) pioneer 6300 bt
> Then the ms-8
> Two way front) tweets ran by the ms-8 amp, Mids bridged to an alpine mrv 300 using y adaptors. The fronts are dls rm6's " beast of a mid bass by the way"
> subs) memphis pr 10's ported in a prefab for the moment till i seal it tomorrow.
> sub amp) jl audio 1200 g-max.
> 
> So just to start from scratch i reset the unit. Set it up like this
> 2 subs mid to low at 80. Two way front mid to high at 4500 both with 24 db slopes.
> Tweets had no presence being ran off the ms-8 so i used the alpine to run the tweets and mids and it was a little better.
> my problem is it just sounds lifeless dead like the ms8 just sucked it all out.


OK, so with the mids and tweets powered by the 4-ch Alpine, how did you set the gains? (let's take the sub out of the equation for now)


----------



## thomasluke

kaigoss69 said:


> OK, so with the mids and tweets powered by the 4-ch Alpine, how did you set the gains? (let's take the sub out of the equation for now)


gains set low and at the same level for mids and tweets. Ran the calibration at -30 through about -20.
I think i know where your going with this. I should turn the tweet up and mids down so that the 80 though 4500 range is boosted? Or am i on the wrong train of thought here and have no idea of whats going on?


----------



## kaigoss69

thomasluke said:


> gains set low and at the same level for mids and tweets. Ran the calibration at -30 through about -20.
> I think i know where your going with this. I should turn the tweet up and mids down so that the 80 though 4500 range is boosted? Or am i on the wrong train of thought here and have no idea of whats going on?


Set the gains to 2v input. If you have sides and rears, I would disconnect them. Right now you want to find the right settings for the front stage. Make sure all amp x-overs are defeated and calibrate at conversation volume.


----------



## subwoofery

thomasluke said:


> Ok,didnt mean to come come of like a pissed off school girl that needs a midol but......
> Nevermind heres the system layout
> HU) pioneer 6300 bt
> Then the ms-8
> Two way front) tweets ran by the ms-8 amp, Mids bridged to an alpine mrv 300 using y adaptors. The fronts are dls rm6's " beast of a mid bass by the way"
> subs) memphis pr 10's ported in a prefab for the moment till i seal it tomorrow.
> sub amp) jl audio 1200 g-max.
> 
> So just to start from scratch i reset the unit. Set it up like this
> 2 subs mid to low at 80. Two way front mid to high at 4500 both with 24 db slopes.
> Tweets had no presence being ran off the ms-8 so i used the alpine to run the tweets and mids and it was a little better.
> my problem is it just sounds lifeless dead like the ms8 just sucked it all out.


One really important thing you're forgetting is: beaming 

I know quite a bit about how the RM6.2 sounds coz I had one set. Passive Xover has a 6dB slope LP around 2.5kHz and 12dB slope HP around 6.3kHz for the tweeter. Running both drivers' Xover @ 4.5kHz 24dB/oct slope is only asking for trouble - MS-8 trying to boost what isn't there on the high midrange. 

Option 1: 
Try 2.5kHz 6dB/oct slope LP on the midrange and 6.3kHz 12dB/oct slope HP on the tweeter 

Option 2: 
Try 2.5kHz 6dB/oct slope LP on the midrange and 5kHz 18dB/oct slope HP on the tweeter 

Option 3: 
Try 2.5kHz 6dB/oct slope LP on the midrange and 4kHz 24dB/oct slope HP on the tweeter 

Option 4: 
Try 3.15kHz 12dB/oct slope LP on the midrange and 4kHz 18dB/oct slope HP on the tweeter (Focal style) 

Keep the best setting... 

As stated in many of my posts, the MS-8, although an Auto-tuning processor, is still *a processor*... You have to play with it (and if possible optimize speaker locations) in order to learn and unleash its true potential. 

Kelvin 

PS: make sure you have your connexion correct, on the RCA input side, it's easy to use 1&3 instead of 1&2 + and make sure *EVERY* speaker is connect in absolute phase (+ to + and - to -) or else it *WILL* sound *BAD*. 

Kelvin


----------



## aviator79

Did anyone else not receive the display mounting plate in their MS-8 box?


----------



## hawkfan

*3" center channel worthwhile???*

Just a quick question. I have a Mazda 6 that has a small compartment right on top of the dash located in the center. I'm toying with the idea of turning that compartment into an enclosure and adding a center channel. The issue is size. I can probably fit two 3" drivers in there side by side maximum or maybe one 4" speaker. I learned from my HT build research on HTguide that the center channel is really important and that it should be on par with the surrounds. I have Polk SR6500's for mids(6.5"). Of course that size center is not possible in my car due to size constraints. Would it be worth it to try some aura sound whispers (two wired in parallel) or small tang band drivers as my center channel? I'm sure I'm not the only person to have this issue here.


----------



## aviator79

*Re: 3" center channel worthwhile???*



hawkfan said:


> Just a quick question. I have a Mazda 6 that has a small compartment right on top of the dash located in the center. I'm toying with the idea of turning that compartment into an enclosure and adding a center channel. The issue is size. I can probably fit two 3" drivers in there side by side maximum or maybe one 4" speaker. I learned from my HT build research on HTguide that the center channel is really important and that it should be on par with the surrounds. I have Polk SR6500's for mids(6.5"). Of course that size center is not possible in my car due to size constraints. Would it be worth it to try some aura sound whispers (two wired in parallel) or small tang band drivers as my center channel? I'm sure I'm not the only person to have this issue here.


Or you could put one,one 3" in the center vent. By the way where is your display mounted in your 6?


----------



## hawkfan

*Re: 3" center channel worthwhile???*



aviator79 said:


> Or you could put one,one 3" in the center vent. By the way where is your display mounted in your 6?


If one 3" would be effective, fine. Here's how I have my display and remote mounted for now:









This location is convenient for calibrating each listening position. I never used that compartment for anything else. I keep hearing how much the MS-8 shines with a center channel so I was thinking about moving it in favor of putting a small center channel up there.


----------



## 14642

put a couple of 3" in there, or a 4" or a 4x6 or something.


----------



## thomasluke

subwoofery said:


> One really important thing you're forgetting is: beaming
> 
> I know quite a bit about how the RM6.2 sounds coz I had one set. Passive Xover has a 6dB slope LP around 2.5kHz and 12dB slope HP around 6.3kHz for the tweeter. Running both drivers' Xover @ 4.5kHz 24dB/oct slope is only asking for trouble - MS-8 trying to boost what isn't there on the high midrange.
> 
> Option 1:
> Try 2.5kHz 6dB/oct slope LP on the midrange and 6.3kHz 12dB/oct slope HP on the tweeter
> 
> Option 2:
> Try 2.5kHz 6dB/oct slope LP on the midrange and 5kHz 18dB/oct slope HP on the tweeter
> 
> Option 3:
> Try 2.5kHz 6dB/oct slope LP on the midrange and 4kHz 24dB/oct slope HP on the tweeter
> 
> Option 4:
> Try 3.15kHz 12dB/oct slope LP on the midrange and 4kHz 18dB/oct slope HP on the tweeter (Focal style)
> 
> Keep the best setting...
> 
> As stated in many of my posts, the MS-8, although an Auto-tuning processor, is still *a processor*... You have to play with it (and if possible optimize speaker locations) in order to learn and unleash its true potential.
> 
> Kelvin
> 
> PS: make sure you have your connexion correct, on the RCA input side, it's easy to use 1&3 instead of 1&2 + and make sure *EVERY* speaker is connect in absolute phase (+ to + and - to -) or else it *WILL* sound *BAD*.
> 
> Kelvin


Didnt know that i could select i could select crossovers like that. The only options i see are sub to mid and mid to high it doesnt give me selections like that.


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## kaigoss69

You can't!


----------



## subwoofery

kaigoss69 said:


> You can't!


My bad then  It's been so long since I calibrated my car. At least a year ago... Love how it sits right now. 

Kelvin


----------



## CobraVin

can Andy or anyone check out my questions in post # 7307 on page 293

I know its a little long but i thought it would be important to give all that info. 
Or do I have to throw a hissy fit to get some attention in here:laugh:

All opinions welcome, thanks


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## CobraVin

here is my new center channel next to the factory bose unit


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## duro78

thomasluke said:


> **** this thing! Ya, i said it. Been working for two days now on getting it up and running and it now sounds like ****.
> I've tried everything with the gains low, normal and everywhere inbetween. I got know midbass either, little or very overpowering bass and thin weak highs with NO extension at all.
> Same xover setting as the passives ... should sound ok. Right?
> Not to me they don't. And stage what ****ing stage? the one thats on the left or right cuz it's not focused at all.
> I'm really feeling a "for sale" thread on a mint two day old unit right now.
> I mean before this i had all the bass and midbass i wanted just wanted to step it up. If i can't get my **** together with this thing in the next day or two..... **** IT!


I'm sorry but I love this post lol exactly how I get when something kicks my ass after awhile. Cracks me up every time I pass it.

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## F150_TX

I have read the MS-8 manual numerous times and have read most of this thread. Alot of info. to digest.
I have it currently running with the HD900/5 to L6s front doors, I6s rear doors, Sundown SAZ2500 to 2 Fi subs on 1 channel and it sounds good to me.

But, I am adding L1 Pro tweeters and an I6 center.
Will this MS-8 config. produce the best SQ with this equip.?

*Equipment*
Stock head unit- base CD with sync
PAC AOEM LOC1 - just using the harnesses, not using the RCAs(tried but would not work correctly), using MS-8s high level inputs right and left on 1 &2
MS-8
Jl Audio HD900/5
Sundown SAZ2500 mono
HAT L6s - front doors
HAT L1 Pros - front doors or A-pillar
HAT I6s - rear doors
HAT I6 - center dash
Fi SSD 10s 1 ohm - parallel


*Proposed setup:*
4-channels of HD 900/5 amp for front lo HAT L6s and the front hi HAT L1 Pro tweeters. MS-8's output channels 1,2,3,and 4. 
MS-8s speaker outputs 5 and 6 for the rear HAT Imagine I6 coaxials. 
Mono Sundown SAZ2500 amp MS-8 output 7 for the (2) Fi SSD 10s parallel.
Mono sub channel of the HD 900/5 to a HAT Imagine I6 in ctr. dash. MS-8 output 8. The HAT L6 has a range up to 9,500 Hz and the HD900/5 sub channel range is up to 10kHz. 
All MS-8 channels will be used.

*Then:*

Sub= 1
Subsonic Filter= 20Hz, 12dB/octave 
Sub/Front crossover 80Hz 24dB/oct
Front= 2-way
Front lo/hi crossover= 50Hz-10kHz, 6db-24dB/octave
Sides= 1-way 
Side crossover= 100Hz, 24dB/octave
Center= 1
Center Hi-pass crossover = 80Hz, 24dB/octave

*Possible issues:*
The HD 900/5 mono sub channel? is this a problem?
It is also 500 watts. Is this a problem for the Imagine I6? Is there a possible workaround? 
During MS-8 setup, should the HD amps input sensitivity (gains) be all the way down? or set up according to the HD manual ?
Same ? as above with the Sundown amp?

Any other potential issues?
Any other info. needed?
All config. suggestions welcomed.

Thanks


----------



## duro78

F150_TX said:


> I have read the MS-8 manual numerous times and have read most of this thread. Alot of info. to digest.
> I have it currently running with the HD900/5 to L6s front doors, I6s rear doors, Sundown SAZ2500 to 2 Fi subs on 1 channel and it sounds good to me.
> 
> But, I am adding L1 Pro tweeters and an I6 center.
> Will this MS-8 config. produce the best SQ with this equip.?
> 
> *Equipment*
> Stock head unit- base CD with sync
> PAC AOEM LOC1 - just using the harnesses, not using the RCAs(tried but would not work correctly), using MS-8s high level inputs right and left on 1 &2
> MS-8
> Jl Audio HD900/5
> Sundown SAZ2500 mono
> HAT L6s - front doors
> HAT L1 Pros - front doors or A-pillar
> HAT I6s - rear doors
> HAT I6 - center dash
> Fi SSD 10s 1 ohm - parallel
> 
> 
> *Proposed setup:*
> 4-channels of HD 900/5 amp for front lo HAT L6s and the front hi HAT L1 Pro tweeters. MS-8's output channels 1,2,3,and 4.
> MS-8s speaker outputs 5 and 6 for the rear HAT Imagine I6 coaxials.
> Mono Sundown SAZ2500 amp MS-8 output 7 for the (2) Fi SSD 10s parallel.
> Mono sub channel of the HD 900/5 to a HAT Imagine I6 in ctr. dash. MS-8 output 8. The HAT L6 has a range up to 9,500 Hz and the HD900/5 sub channel range is up to 10kHz.
> All MS-8 channels will be used.
> 
> *Then:*
> 
> Sub= 1
> Subsonic Filter= 20Hz, 12dB/octave
> Sub/Front crossover 80Hz 24dB/oct
> Front= 2-way
> Front lo/hi crossover= 50Hz-10kHz, 6db-24dB/octave
> Sides= 1-way
> Side crossover= 100Hz, 24dB/octave
> Center= 1
> Center Hi-pass crossover = 80Hz, 24dB/octave
> 
> *Possible issues:*
> The HD 900/5 mono sub channel? is this a problem?
> It is also 500 watts. Is this a problem for the Imagine I6? Is there a possible workaround?
> During MS-8 setup, should the HD amps input sensitivity (gains) be all the way down? or set up according to the HD manual ?
> Same ? as above with the Sundown amp?
> 
> Any other potential issues?
> Any other info. needed?
> All config. suggestions welcomed.
> 
> Thanks


Why are you overlapping your 2way and sub.

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----------



## jon302v8

Andy or Kaigoss69,

I have a question about the kaigoss method to avoid the level mismatch between midbass and sub.

Why is the calibration done with only midbass and then the sub crossed in after calibration? Is it done this way so the sub won't affect the time alignment of the midbass? If your sub has a peak it seems the MS-8 doesn't get a chance to cut it.

If you crossed your sub into the midbass channel first using the amp's crossover, manually level matched it with the midbass, and then calibrated... wouldn't the MS-8 have a chance to EQ the actual sub response?

Thanks.


----------



## kaigoss69

jon302v8 said:


> Andy or Kaigoss69,
> 
> I have a question about the kaigoss method to avoid the level mismatch between midbass and sub.
> 
> Why is the calibration done with only midbass and then the sub crossed in after calibration? Is it done this way so the sub won't affect the time alignment of the midbass? If your sub has a peak it seems the MS-8 doesn't get a chance to cut it.
> 
> If you crossed your sub into the midbass channel first using the amp's crossover, manually level matched it with the midbass, and then calibrated... wouldn't the MS-8 would have a chance to EQ the actual sub response?
> 
> Thanks.


Taibanl calibrated with the sub, I believe, and got good results. For me, I just did it without the sub for the first time because I did not want the sub's peak messing things up. Sounded good to me so I never did any further experimenting.


----------



## thomasluke

So apparently i got a bad unit from sonic. 
The first thing that was a little shady was the manual already had someone mark down their channel selection.
Secondly when i first powered up the unit it started playing music and almost smoked my tweeters before i had a chance to turn down the hu.
Then once i get everything setup and did my first calibration i heard music playing from the ipod that was connected to usb port on the hu right before the sweeps started. Anyone else heard that? 
Was at very low volume but was most def hotel california that i heard.


----------



## duro78

thomasluke said:


> So apparently i got a bad unit from sonic.
> The first thing that was a little shady was the manual already had someone mark down their channel selection.
> Secondly when i first powered up the unit it started playing music and almost smoked my tweeters before i had a chance to turn down the hu.
> Then once i get everything setup and did my first calibration i heard music playing from the ipod that was connected to usb port on the hu right before the sweeps started. Anyone else heard that?
> Was at very low volume but was most def hotel california that i heard.


That's weird because my first unit happened to be used also. The display and ms8 had deep scratches in them and the paint on the mounting feet was chilled also. I bought from a different source though. I know jbl was selling some refurbed units and that's exactly what these seem to be. Maybe Andy can explain.

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----------



## duro78

Is anyone having problems with a weak connection to there display. It worked fine for two weeks then it went out intermittently now I have nothing. Usually a jiggle on the ms8 input would give me power but now I can't even get it to show any sign of life.

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----------



## thomasluke

duro78 said:


> That's weird because my first unit happened to be used also. The display and ms8 had deep scratches in them and the paint on the mounting feet was chilled also. I bought from a different source though. I know jbl was selling some refurbed units and that's exactly what these seem to be. Maybe Andy can explain.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Did it work right though? 
Something that i forgot to include before hand is that my right mid when playing at moderatly high volume would just move in and out slowly. 
Like a speaker does when you get a turn off pop, just a little slower.


----------



## duro78

thomasluke said:


> Did it work right though?
> Something that i forgot to include before hand is that my right mid when playing at moderatly high volume would just move in and out slowly.
> Like a speaker does when you get a turn off pop, just a little slower.


Wow I noticed the same thing but just shrugged it off lol. The mid would move in and out slowly but it didn't coincide with the music playing. When I noticed this i had just installed new mids and my TA was completely wrong so I made sure all drivers were in phase and low and behold they weren't. Once they were in phase I recalibrated and everything was fine. No issues with the mids and my image was perfect, your drivers just might be out of phase. How's your imaging? To answer your other question the unit worked fine but there was no way I was paying $470 for a unit that looked like someone took a screw driver too it in a fit of rage. Luckily the seller shipped a new one out same day and was very apologetic. 

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----------



## jon302v8

kaigoss69 said:


> Taibanl calibrated with the sub, I believe, and got good results. For me, I just did it without the sub for the first time because I did not want the sub's peak messing things up. Sounded good to me so I never did any further experimenting.


Kaigoss, with your method did you get your sub integrated without a lot of EQ?

I tried calibrating with the sub crossed (Taibanl method) and it totally screwed up my imaging but the sub was integrated well with the bass locked up front.

I then tried your method and the imaging is great with crystal clear midrange. However, when I tried to integrate the sub, balance gains, and EQ after calibration... I just can't get it right. The sub is peaky and pulls to the rear. It required a lot of EQ cuts and some boost to the midbass.

So now I'm wondering if I should add a crossover for the mids/tweets or just go back to playing with gains and cal volumes to try and get the "normal" 3way+sub method to work.

To summarize, here is my history:

2 way + sub: sub level mismatch and no midbass

3 way MS-8 (2 way front + w/ sub as front low): calibration was perfect but my 2-ways stunk at vocals

3 way MS-8 (3 way front, no sub while I waited for an amp): calibration was perfect, new mids really cleaned up vocals, no SPL because midbass are playing sub range

3 way + sub (normal method): sub level mismatch and no midbass

3 way w/ sub crossed with front low via amp before calibration(taibanl method): great sub integration but muddy image

3 way cal, sub crossed w/ front low after cal (kaigoss method): can't get sub integrated to keep bass up front and not peak.


My mids and tweets are right next to each other so they don't need time alignment. Maybe I'll just add a crossover to combine them on the MS-8. I'm not sure I can just use a cap because I'm concerned about distortion as the mids break up. Right now I have them playing 700-5K.


This has been an adventure... but I'm sure it will be worth it  Honestly it sounds pretty good right now but the bar has been raised because in each area I've had a taste of what "could be" if I get it all to work together...


----------



## kaigoss69

jon302v8 said:


> Kaigoss, with your method did you get your sub integrated without a lot of EQ?
> 
> I tried calibrating with the sub crossed (Taibanl method) and it totally screwed up my imaging but the sub was integrated well with the bass locked up front.
> 
> I then tried your method and the imaging is great with crystal clear midrange. However, when I tried to integrate the sub, balance gains, and EQ after calibration... I just can't get it right. The sub is peaky and pulls to the rear. It required a lot of EQ cuts and some boost to the midbass.
> 
> So now I'm wondering if I should add a crossover for the mids/tweets or just go back to playing with gains and cal volumes to try and get the "normal" 3way+sub method to work.
> 
> To summarize, here is my history:
> 
> 2 way + sub: sub level mismatch and no midbass
> 
> 3 way MS-8 (2 way front + w/ sub as front low): calibration was perfect but my 2-ways stunk at vocals
> 
> 3 way MS-8 (3 way front, no sub while I waited for an amp): calibration was perfect, new mids really cleaned up vocals, no SPL because midbass are playing sub range
> 
> 3 way + sub (normal method): sub level mismatch and no midbass
> 
> 3 way w/ sub crossed with front low via amp before calibration(taibanl method): great sub integration but muddy image
> 
> 3 way cal, sub crossed w/ front low after cal (kaigoss method): can't get sub integrated to keep bass up front and not peak.
> 
> 
> My mids and tweets are right next to each other so they don't need time alignment. Maybe I'll just add a crossover to combine them on the MS-8. I'm not sure I can just use a cap because I'm concerned about distortion as the mids break up. Right now I have them playing 700-5K.
> 
> 
> This has been an adventure... but I'm sure it will be worth it  Honestly it sounds pretty good right now but the bar has been raised because in each area I've had a taste of what "could be" if I get it all to work together...


What x-over point and slope are you using for the passive midbass/sub transition? Mine integrates best at 55Hz, using 24dB/oct HP and 12dB/oct LP. I think the key is to play the midbass as low as possible, and then let the sub "blend" with the midbass through the shallower LP slope.

Edit: If you have a huge peak at the sub, you may also want to try underlapping the x-over points to try to tame the peak and make a smoother transition. What I mean is that if you have a peak at 70-80Hz, you can HP at 80Hz, but set the LP at 60Hz, for example, thereby chopping some of that peak off.


----------



## jon302v8

kaigoss69 said:


> What x-over point and slope are you using for the passive midbass/sub transition? Mine integrates best at 55Hz, using 24dB/oct HP and 12dB/oct LP. I think the key is to play the midbass as low as possible, and then let the sub "blend" with the midbass through the shallower LP slope.


I am doing the exact opposite - crossing the sub as high as possible to keep from overworking the midbass. I was using 90Hz 24dB/oct. This works great when the MS-8 tunes the sub as a front low. Somehow the bass stays up front but it's easier on the midbass driver - this is one of my favorite things about the MS-8 tune. When I have the midbass playing low I hit distortion and clipping a lot earlier. My midbass drivers in my thin doors just don't play low.

I think this might be the reason your method doesn't work well for me. When the MS-8 tunes without the sub maybe it boosts the weak low end of my midbass? Afterward when I manually integrate the sub I have to drastically cut the low end EQ (30-50Hz). Even when I get the RTA response smooth something doesn't sound correct. I get a "boom" from the back on certain notes. Also my midbass still hits distortion early (even with the 90Hz cross).

But I'll play around with crossover freq & slopes, and I'll revisit the normal "3-way + sub" calibration gain & volume trial and error. If all that fails I think my next step is to come up with a passive crossover for the mids/tweets so I can have the MS-8 tune the sub as a front low. I've never done a crossover that so it will be more learning...


----------



## kaigoss69

jon302v8 said:


> I am doing the exact opposite - crossing the sub as high as possible to keep from overworking the midbass. I was using 90Hz 24dB/oct. This works great when the MS-8 tunes the sub as a front low. Somehow the bass stays up front but it's easier on the midbass driver - this is one of my favorite things about the MS-8 tune. When I have the midbass playing low I hit distortion and clipping a lot earlier. My midbass drivers in my thin doors just don't play low.
> 
> I think this might be the reason your method doesn't work well for me. When the MS-8 tunes without the sub maybe it boosts the weak low end of my midbass? Afterward when I manually integrate the sub I have to drastically cut the low end EQ (30-50Hz). Even when I get the RTA response smooth something doesn't sound correct. I get a "boom" from the back on certain notes. Also my midbass still hits distortion early (even with the 90Hz cross).
> 
> But I'll play around with crossover freq & slopes, and I'll revisit the normal "3-way + sub" calibration gain & volume trial and error. If all that fails I think my next step is to come up with a passive crossover for the mids/tweets so I can have the MS-8 tune the sub as a front low. I've never done a crossover that so it will be more learning...


Before you do that you may want to use the Taibanl variation and underlap the sub and midbass. I agree with you though that if you have smaller midbass drivers, then the processor will tend to boost the low end too much. Also, make sure you do not TA with the sub piggybacked, as this may screw-up your midbass imaging. So only connect the sub AFTER the first set of sweeps.


----------



## jon302v8

kaigoss69 said:


> Before you do that you may want to use the Taibanl variation and underlap the sub and midbass. I agree with you though that if you have smaller midbass drivers, then the processor will tend to boost the low end too much. Also, make sure you do not TA with the sub piggybacked, as this may screw-up your midbass imaging. So only connect the sub AFTER the first set of sweeps.


Thank you! I had the sub connected for the whole calibration and that is probably what screwed up my imaging! Tonight I will try 
connecting the sub only after the first set of sweeps. Hopefully I can get imaging _and_ bass integration. I will throw a party 

So the plan is:

1) connect sub using amp crossover
2) configure MS-8 crossovers
3) using MS-8 test noise, balance amp gains and crossover
4) disconnect sub
5) run first acoustic calibration sweep to TA
6) connect sub
7) run remaining sweeps to EQ

Does this sound correct?


----------



## 14642

Guys,
The time alignment algorithm looks for a peak in the impulse response. It'll pick the speaker with the most high frequency content. Connecting the sub WILL NOT mess with midbass time alignment. Connecting the sub to the front low does two things:

1. It eliminates the sub to front level matching part of the algorithm which is sometimes confused by a sub response with weak midbass and a midbass response with a hige peak between 80 and 300 Hz. This is what happens in BMWs with underseat subs.

2. It relies on the EQ to match the bass and midbass to the target. 

That's it. No mystery here.


----------



## 14642

Would those of you who have apparently purchased refurb units from Harman please send me a PM with your serial number? 

The unit will play the last configuration that was loaded prior to calibration. So, if you purchased a refurb, that's what's going on. I'll talk to the guys who prepare refurbs today to insist that new firmware is downloaded into these units before they are shipped.


----------



## duro78

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Would those of you who have apparently purchased refurb units from Harman please send me a PM with your serial number?
> 
> The unit will play the last configuration that was loaded prior to calibration. So, if you purchased a refurb, that's what's going on. I'll talk to the guys who prepare refurbs today to insist that new firmware is downloaded into these units before they are shipped.


We didn't order refurbs, we bought new and got used equipment. I have to now order a third unit because the display is shot. Stuck on please wait and the only time I even get that is jiggling the input on the ms8. I like what this unit can do but these issues are completely unexceptable for a $500 unit. Installing uninstalling boxing up shipping is getting real old. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## duro78

duro78 said:


> We didn't order refurbs, we bought new and got used equipment. I have to now order a third unit because the display is shot. Stuck on please wait and the only time I even get that is jiggling the input on the ms8. I like what this unit can do but these issues are completely unexceptable for a $500 unit. Installing uninstalling boxing up shipping is getting real old. After I sent back the second one I stated there should of been more quality assurance done on these things before they were released and I believe that more than ever now.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk




Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigE

I've used the kaigoss method with;
1- the sub connected,
2- the sub disconnected,
DURING calibration. 

No difference between the two.
It's just easier to leave the the sub connected.


----------



## jon302v8

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Guys,
> The time alignment algorithm looks for a peak in the impulse response. It'll pick the speaker with the most high frequency content. Connecting the sub WILL NOT mess with midbass time alignment. Connecting the sub to the front low does two things:
> 
> 1. It eliminates the sub to front level matching part of the algorithm which is sometimes confused by a sub response with weak midbass and a midbass response with a hige peak between 80 and 300 Hz. This is what happens in BMWs with underseat subs.
> 
> 2. It relies on the EQ to match the bass and midbass to the target.
> 
> That's it. No mystery here.


OK, thanks for the insight. Thought I was on to something. I'll try the kaigoss method again with the sub connected. Maybe it was another gain balancing or cal volume issue.


----------



## CobraVin

Andy, I bought a new unit back when amazon had them on sale, is there a firmware update that I should be concerned with?

I am gonna fire my unit up today for the first time, I posted my setup a few pages back looking for tips but no one replied, I HAVE read the manual and this entire thread and will go from there with my best guesses for x-over points and the potential problem of my mids and tweet not being exactly in the same location but sharing channels through a passive, eventually I may try and swap the location of the pillar mids and tweets but it will take major surgery on the door panel, I know how you feel about mids in that location too.

I also was wondering the impact of x-over frequency choices by having a center channel that is a two way but my left and right a three way.

Any pointers Andy. Or anyone else?


----------



## quietfly

CobraVin said:


> Hi all, I'm finishing up my install and looking forward to firing up the MS_8 for the first time, I have been following this thread from the beginning and bought my unit during the great Amazon sale but didn't have a vehicle to install it in so it sat in the box until now. I had previously cut and pasted a bunch of posts from Andy and others to help me but lost them from a hard drive crash.
> 
> I'm looking for opinions on setting up crossover freq and slopes as well as time alignment tricks (or any other tips or opinions)since I am running passives on the tw/mid and center channel and they are not exactly the same distance away.
> 
> I wondered if I would get better results during setup if there was a way to time align to one or the other only then hook both back up. Or if anyone has any other tricks that may help my specific install based on my drivers and placement (listed below)


For your first sweeps, disconnect your tweets and let it time align to the mids only. 


CobraVin said:


> I'm also wondering if their is a preferred method for setting up mid, mid-bass and sub levels since I have noticed some have had issues and have diffent methods they feel work best
> 
> I'm familiar with my speakers and the ranges they played in past vehicles, but new to the MS-8 as well as these spx crossovers with all their phase and level adjustments, (should i set them flat and just past through the MS-8 signal?) so I would like to get in the ball park from the start here, thanks.


I'd run them with no level adjustment at first to see what type of output you get running quasi active. if you find the output of the mid can't keep up with the tweet then use the xover to dial it down a notch. however i'd only do this if you can't get the proper sound from tuning with the 31 band.


CobraVin said:


> The car is a 2009 G37x coupe
> 
> 3way front, Scan rev 6-1/2 in lower doors on their own MS-8 channels
> Scan 2904 tweets in upper door where the stock mids use to be because they wouldn't fit where the stock tweets used to be, and scan 12m(4") fiber glassed in lower pillar in dash corners about 4" higher and 4" further away from listener than the tweets,this is as close as I could get them to the tweets, I know this isn't ideal since they are on the same MS-8 channel,but its the best I can do without changing drivers, I am using alpine spx passive x-overs which used variations of these same scan drivers
> 
> Zapco c2k 2.0 (50w x 2) powering the mids
> Zapco c2k 3.0 (75w x 2) powering the tweets
> Blau V2100 (100w x 2) powering the woofers
> 
> Center ch is a Scan Rev 15M (5-1/2) with Alpines version of the Scan 2904 tweet again using an Spx x over, I had to modify underneath for it to fit and there was no other tweeter mounting option either, its about an 1/8th of an inch from the windshield
> Blau V2100 (300w x 1 or 100w x 2) my choice, crossovers are bi-amp-able
> 
> rears are stock 2ohm Bose 6x9's on the rear deck run off MS-8, I was going to add tweets to them, instead of using the small rear side speakers that are also there.
> 
> two Aura 10" subs in trunk powered by a Blau V4100 (300w x 2)
> 
> so based on all those variables how would you set this up ?
> 
> Maybe its because I have been listening to stock systems and haven't had my gear installed in anything for a while but I cant remember being this excited about finishing an install, can't wait to hear this set up
> 
> Thanks


Luckily playing around with setups on the MS-8 is VERY VERY quick. so start out basic and then really narrow down your specs. write everything down so you have notes to go back and look at. the one thing i wish the MS-8 did was give you back a list of your current settings. 
setup your front stage for 2way and play with your slope and xover point. I've found that i've been using much higher xover points than i was normally accustomed to in the past. Especially with my Sub. 
play around, i think you'll find its not so difficult to get close to the right setting very quickly. its that last 10% that's hard to nail down.
once you get going , if you have any issues then, post them and we'll all be glad to chime in....

Good luck!


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## CobraVin

Thanks for the reply. I usually keep notes of all changes. Between my old Drz9255, Zapco DC amps and in dash DRC I must have tried a thousand settings(sure feels like that anyway) Hell I think I still have frequency responses from the last three cars I've had from my Mobile pre rta laptop setup.

As far as the mid /tweet problem, thats what I was thinking I should do since they are not in the same place and since t/a is less important on tweets than loudness from what I understand(at least the way our ears and brain hear and process it) was just looking for other opinions on it.

I'll fire it up try some settings later this afternoon, I'm waiting on Larry the cable guy to show up (three hour window my ass) but looking forward to hearing magic:surprised:


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## dani44

this is great proccesor and good pics


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## CobraVin

Tryin to find out what i did wrong,
I'm only getting music out of the right side. When i do the output test there is pink noise from all channels which would seem to mean my input wires are wrong, but i checked them 3 times before i soldered them, i soldered rca plugs on the wires from the head unit but before the factory bose amp.
I originally skipped input as was suggested but tried to run it after the problem but I don't seem to have an audio file on my set up cd, I read about some missing it, guess I'm one of the lucky ones. 

I'm gonna try and find the file, if someone can send it to me I would appreciate it
anyone have any tips, thanks


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## CobraVin

yes i checked the balance controls on the ms8 as well as the car,as per the manual


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## duro78

CobraVin said:


> Tryin to find out what i did wrong,
> I'm only getting music out of the right side. When i do the output test there is pink noise from all channels which would seem to mean my input wires are wrong, but i checked them 3 times before i soldered them, i soldered rca plugs on the wires from the head unit but before the factory bose amp.
> I originally skipped input as was suggested but tried to run it after the problem but I don't seem to have an audio file on my set up cd, I read about some missing it, guess I'm one of the lucky ones.
> 
> I'm gonna try and find the file, if someone can send it to me I would appreciate it
> anyone have any tips, thanks


I had the same problem, diagnostics played on both right and left side during sweeps. When I played music It only played on one side. After checking everything I realized I put one of the 2ch inputs on the bottom instead of on ch2. Your inputs are the cause.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## nineball

CobraVin said:


> Tryin to find out what i did wrong,
> I'm only getting music out of the right side. When i do the output test there is pink noise from all channels which would seem to mean my input wires are wrong, but i checked them 3 times before i soldered them, i soldered rca plugs on the wires from the head unit but before the factory bose amp.
> I originally skipped input as was suggested but tried to run it after the problem but I don't seem to have an audio file on my set up cd, I read about some missing it, guess I'm one of the lucky ones.
> 
> I'm gonna try and find the file, if someone can send it to me I would appreciate it
> anyone have any tips, thanks



check your inputs on the ms-8. there is a chance you may have your rca cables feeding channels 1 and 5 not 1 and 2. for some reason they decided to change the normal assignments of channel (left - right vs up - down) which still baffles me to this day  you get output to all speakers during testing because the outputs are correct and the ms-8 supplies the noise, however once you using your source you are only feeding one side of the ms-8 (channel 1, channel 5 is not used).


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## CobraVin

i know mine are on 1 and 2 (next to each other) because i double checked the manual when it said that to make sure they werent on top of each other, and I just checked the print out of the service manual schematic I wrote on identifying which wires were which when i soldered them up, 

sucks cause i have to remove the sub box/amp rack to get to the ms8 in the trunk, I left an access port to unplug the mic and get to the fuse but I can't get to the other side without taking out a bunch of crap


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## CobraVin

ok let me know if any of this helps pin point the problem

there IS output from the other side if I fade the ms-8 all the way, its just real real low and sounds like ****

burnt the audio file, reads ok- ok-balance right

if i swap the #1 and #2 rca the music switches sides but ms-8 still reads balance right

i have no center sound output

the loud side doesn't sound good until i switch logic 7 OFF, then its good

ANY ideas??? I would bet $100 that the rca's are on the right wires coming from the head


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## Prime mova

This is probably going over old ground, I'm also feeling crap in a chronic way so can't get through the thread. Please put a recap it may be refreshing... 

I've came to the reality that I'm not going to be able to build my system so the cars being packed up and dropped off at the local audio biz. I've been around the audio game and some of my friend's have been installer's. IMO the installer's all seem to have their individual bucket of bits left over that were originally holding the car together  OK if you want to reduce the car weight for Nascar...so I need some knowledge before the build. Are these components compatible and will they work w/ the JBL: 


DSP - JBL MS8
Deck - Rockford Fosgate RFX8140 and Changer RFX8601
Amps - Fronts RF Chrome 50.2 Rear Chrome 50.1
Speakers - Fronts ADS 236is splits, Center Alpine Din sized SBS-05DC, oem back fill
Woofer - oem RF enclosure 1 x 8" dual 1 ohm Sub 
Bass Shaker - 1 x RF IB200 tactile transducer under the center console

If I can't configure this setup with the JBL then I've got a RF epx2 w/ e28 and PG DD10.

I'd like to have some pre-build knowledge before talking to the installer. 

Please chime in w/ your advice.


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## 14642

CobraVin said:


> ok let me know if any of this helps pin point the problem
> 
> there IS output from the other side if I fade the ms-8 all the way, its just real real low and sounds like ****
> 
> burnt the audio file, reads ok- ok-balance right
> 
> if i swap the #1 and #2 rca the music switches sides but ms-8 still reads balance right
> 
> i have no center sound output
> 
> the loud side doesn't sound good until i switch logic 7 OFF, then its good
> 
> ANY ideas??? I would bet $100 that the rca's are on the right wires coming from the head


Check to see that you've configured the outputs correctly. Sounds like you've identified one of the front channels as sides and that L7 side is playing from one of the front speakers.


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## 14642

CobraVin said:


> ok let me know if any of this helps pin point the problem
> 
> there IS output from the other side if I fade the ms-8 all the way, its just real real low and sounds like ****
> 
> burnt the audio file, reads ok- ok-balance right
> 
> if i swap the #1 and #2 rca the music switches sides but ms-8 still reads balance right
> 
> i have no center sound output
> 
> the loud side doesn't sound good until i switch logic 7 OFF, then its good
> 
> ANY ideas??? I would bet $100 that the rca's are on the right wires coming from the head


Oops. Didn't read this one. If MS-8 reads "balance right" that means there's signal on the left input, but not enough. If the balance control on th head unit is in the center, this is a pretty good indication that the input connection from the head isn't correct.

If you'll post the year, make and model of your car, i'll look up the connections for you.


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## CobraVin

thanks Andy its a 2009 Infiniti G37X coupe

I have the service manual diagram, it shows connector B41

these are from h/u to bose amp, intercepted before the amp

pin 33 front right positive
pin 34 front right neg
pin 35 front left positive
pin 36 front left neg

I'm off today so I will recheck it after I pull my amp rack out


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## 14642

Make sure you're on the correct side of the connector. 33-36 should be correct, but if you were connected to 29-32, what you're experienceing might be the result. 29 and 36 are at opposite ends of the connector and they're apparently the same color.


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## CobraVin

Thanks for the help guys, the connections were correct and the solder joints good but the rca's I spliced in used really thin wire which came apart at the base of one of the solder joints, and the other broke off without much force also, maybe a combo of too much heat and very small wire made it brittle, anyway I hacked a nice Monster cable that was three times the thickness and spliced that in and my signal is now perfect.

Andy (or anyone else) if you have time could you check out my post on pg 293 to see my set up and maybe offer some suggestions on settings

It sounds good but I still have some tuning to do, tweets are too low, and bass a little sloppy, the rears also seem a tad too loud, I swapped in some Alpine 6x9 coax in the rear deck since the factory 6x9's had no tweeters

tweets are in the door off axis, where as they were on axis in my last install, I also have always ran them active but now need the passives so ill play around with those too until the MS-10 comes out:surprised:

also should I disconnect the tweets during time alignment since they are not right next to the mids?

after I mess around with settings and get it close I'll break out the rta and see if I can get the rest of the way with the eq

this is what I started with

ms8 gain was -30, ill try -40
rears at 100hz
center at 150
sub/front low 80,
front low to mids/Tw 350
mid to tweet using passives unknown, prob low though as the tweet plays really low (fs750) and these alpine passives used that tweet

Does it matter where the head unit volume is during calibration?, after Input it just says turn head unit down and continue?


----------



## pionkej

Andy,

I have another question on how the MS8 handles side/rear fill. This time I'm curious about how the delay is figured. 

Let's say the MS8 target is 20ms of delay for the fill. I'm curious if that amount is additive to the distance or if it's total delay. By that, I mean, if our rear speaker is 5 feet behind us (and we use a rough approximation of 5ms), does that channel have a delay of 25ms (20ms from MS8 "target" + 5ms physical delay = 25ms total) or a delay of 20ms (20ms from MS8 "target" - 5ms of measured physical delay = 20ms total). 

I may be splitting hairs asking, but I'm truly curious since I'm considering bi-amping side and rear fill off the MS8's "side" output since I don't have enough channels for both. With my planned locations, there is nearly a 7'-0" difference between the two locations and that could cause some large differences in delay, so I'm trying to figure which should be used for calibration sweeps. 

Thank you for any help you can give as it's greatly appreciated.


----------



## 14642

CobraVin said:


> Thanks for the help guys, the connections were correct and the solder joints good but the rca's I spliced in used really thin wire which came apart at the base of one of the solder joints, and the other broke off without much force also, maybe a combo of too much heat and very small wire made it brittle, anyway I hacked a nice Monster cable that was three times the thickness and spliced that in and my signal is now perfect.
> 
> Andy (or anyone else) if you have time could you check out my post on pg 293 to see my set up and maybe offer some suggestions on settings
> 
> It sounds good but I still have some tuning to do, tweets are too low, and bass a little sloppy, the rears also seem a tad too loud, I swapped in some Alpine 6x9 coax in the rear deck since the factory 6x9's had no tweeters
> 
> tweets are in the door off axis, where as they were on axis in my last install, I also have always ran them active but now need the passives so ill play around with those too until the MS-10 comes out:surprised:
> 
> also should I disconnect the tweets during time alignment since they are not right next to the mids?
> 
> after I mess around with settings and get it close I'll break out the rta and see if I can get the rest of the way with the eq
> 
> this is what I started with
> 
> ms8 gain was -30, ill try -40
> rears at 100hz
> center at 150
> sub/front low 80,
> front low to mids/Tw 350
> mid to tweet using passives unknown, prob low though as the tweet plays really low (fs750) and these alpine passives used that tweet
> 
> Does it matter where the head unit volume is during calibration?, after Input it just says turn head unit down and continue?


 
Aha! So it was the RCA...Sealed or vented sub box? Is the crossover on the sub amp off?


----------



## 14642

pionkej said:


> Andy,
> 
> I have another question on how the MS8 handles side/rear fill. This time I'm curious about how the delay is figured.
> 
> Let's say the MS8 target is 20ms of delay for the fill. I'm curious if that amount is additive to the distance or if it's total delay. By that, I mean, if our rear speaker is 5 feet behind us (and we use a rough approximation of 5ms), does that channel have a delay of 25ms (20ms from MS8 "target" + 5ms physical delay = 25ms total) or a delay of 20ms (20ms from MS8 "target" - 5ms of measured physical delay = 20ms total).
> 
> I may be splitting hairs asking, but I'm truly curious since I'm considering bi-amping side and rear fill off the MS8's "side" output since I don't have enough channels for both. With my planned locations, there is nearly a 7'-0" difference between the two locations and that could cause some large differences in delay, so I'm trying to figure which should be used for calibration sweeps.
> 
> Thank you for any help you can give as it's greatly appreciated.


Logic7 delay is added to the delay calculated and added to the signal for time correction. Running sides and rears in parallel off the side outputs is fine. There's VERY little difference between 5.1 and 7.1. This is definitely splitting hairs. Cleaning the inside of the windshield probably makes a bigger difference than the time alignment settings in the back. Well...I take that back. If the near side speaker is really close, then you want MS-8 to delay it, but that's the one it's going to "hear" during the sweeps, so long as it has a tweeter.


----------



## thehatedguy

Andy, speaking of the rear speakers...mine are in the factory locations on the rear deck- one right behind each seat and pointing up at the glass. Would there be any benefit to moving them out wider so that they are not directly behind each head? And/or aiming them more into the car at the passenger's head?

I replaced the factory rears with 6x9 coaxes, and being regular coaxes there is only a cap on the tweeter...so I am very positive that directivity is pretty narrow where the woofer and tweeter met. Better passives? 3 way rear?


----------



## CobraVin

Ok, boosted tweets on the passives and its much better, here is my latest settings

ms8 gain at 25
sub sonic at 30/24db
rears at 170hz
center at 120 hz
front/sub 80/24db
midbass to mid/tw combo 250hz

I'm still trying various combos

time aligning mids separately by disconnecting tweets didn't make much of a difference

questions
I know about turning sub gains up during calibration to lower overall bass but...

#1 If I'm OK with the overall bass from everywhere except the sub (too loud) cant I just turn down the sub gain after calibration? because that's what i did and it sounds good, but didn't know if that would negatively effect anything else.

#2 When I did input cal after fixing my rca i noticed the signal the signal from the h/u said too loud then noisey, I assume its starting to clip and i should try not to go past that point on the volume, but is that an accurate indicator or does it depend on the ms8 volume, I'd like to have it so I can turn it all the way up on the H/U without clipping it, is there a way to test this with the input audio track?

#3 Is there a way to change the x-over settings without inputting all the channels locations again?

#4 since the MS-10 may only exist in my dreams is there a possibility of some 2 way x-over modules that would link to and be controlled by the ms-8?

I gotta say I am very impressed with the MS-8, I haven't even taken out my mobile pre rta yet or made any adjustments to the EQ and it may sound better than my vette and tundra builds already, Its also my first center channel as well, looking forward to tweaking this to perfection, I may also try and put the mids into the door somehow to widen the stage even more, they wont fit in the stock locations though.

I may yank the 6 inch scan revs and replace them with some 8" vifa pl's I have because it seems like a waste using the scans in the car in such a narrow range, plus I wanted to build some home speakers to replace my Celestions which suck, I do have a pair of Senn HD800's and a Meier stage dac and Concerto crossfeed headphone set up to get me by though

God, if my wife knew all the money I have spent on audio over our 16 years together I'd be in deep ****.:laugh:

Thanks for the help Andy, and for making such a cool product.

Vin


----------



## CobraVin

Yes Andy the subs are sealed, two 10" Aura's in small box, x-over on sub amp is off, driven by a Blau va4100 300w x 2


----------



## t3sn4f2

thehatedguy said:


> Andy, speaking of the rear speakers...mine are in the factory locations on the rear deck- one right behind each seat and pointing up at the glass. Would there be any benefit to moving them out wider so that they are not directly behind each head? And/or aiming them more into the car at the passenger's head?
> 
> I replaced the factory rears with 6x9 coaxes, and being regular coaxes there is only a cap on the tweeter...so I am very positive that directivity is pretty narrow where the woofer and tweeter met. Better passives? 3 way rear?


Wondering about this one also.


----------



## Hdale85

I'm picking one of these up, this will be my first active experience so I thought a little help from something like the MS-8 might be a good idea. Going to be running Seas Lotus RF27T's and RW-165/1's along with likely HAT L3's for a 3 way active front stage. These will be driven by a DLS A3 and an A4. I'm not sure what to put the more powerful and cleaner dual mono amp on? I'm guessing midrange duty maybe. 

Anyways a little nervous about my choices BUT excited as well. I'm just hoping it turns out amazingly and it seems like you can get some pretty good support from JBL if you aren't happy with the sound. Has anyone here ran any of these drivers on the MS-8?

Also thinking about adding one of these to my brother in laws car, and was curious about what kind of SPL you can expect from the internal amps? I know they aren't rated very high but he has a set of 3 way DLS speakers and I'd like to run them active and what not.


----------



## Sean Morrison

I just hooked one of these up for the first time. I am running a two way front off the 4 channels of a PPI A404; signal coming from channels 1-4 of the MS-8. Then I am running rear coaxial 6x9's in the rear deck on channels 5 & 6 and am trying to use the internal amp to drive these. I also have a single 10w3 sub driven off an A600.

I defined channels 5 & 6 as "sides" because it wouldn't let me change the option of rear to anything but "none." When I do the pink noise test on each channel I do not get any output from the "SL" or "SR". Everything else produces the pink noise when selected. Do I need to do something to let it know to power on the internal amp?


----------



## CobraVin

double check your rca outputs, 1234 will be all on the top row, maybe you have them as upper and lower which would be 5 and 6 (below 1 and 2) maybe that's why 5 and 6 are not playing because you have rca's and speaker outputs on the same channels

it says in the manual to set up rears as sides, sides is used if you have both


----------



## Sean Morrison

That all checks out. Any other ideas?


----------



## pionkej

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Logic7 delay is added to the delay calculated and added to the signal for time correction. Running sides and rears in parallel off the side outputs is fine. There's VERY little difference between 5.1 and 7.1. This is definitely splitting hairs. Cleaning the inside of the windshield probably makes a bigger difference than the time alignment settings in the back. Well...I take that back. If the near side speaker is really close, then you want MS-8 to delay it, but that's the one it's going to "hear" during the sweeps, so long as it has a tweeter.


Andy-

I wasn't trying to split hairs by asking the question. My rears are about 7 feet from the listening position and are what I've already installed as "sides". When I eventually add sides, they will likely go in the front door. This is a 3 foot distance from the listening position, but a 9 foot difference from the rear speaker. I asked because I feel it could potentially make a large difference if I don't disconnect the rears and re-run calibration with the new side speakers (when they get added). 

As I understand your explanation, the MS8 aligns everything first (and that will be based off the rears if they are furthest away), and THEN the delay is added to sides/rears for L7. So if the target delay for the "fill" speakers is 20ms, the actual delay will be 20ms. That was all I needed to know and it looks like I will re-run calibration once the sides are added. 

Thank you for all the support you give here, it is greatly appreciated.


----------



## 14642

CobraVin said:


> Ok, boosted tweets on the passives and its much better, here is my latest settings
> 
> ms8 gain at 25
> sub sonic at 30/24db
> rears at 170hz
> center at 120 hz
> front/sub 80/24db
> midbass to mid/tw combo 250hz
> 
> I'm still trying various combos
> 
> time aligning mids separately by disconnecting tweets didn't make much of a difference
> 
> questions
> I know about turning sub gains up during calibration to lower overall bass but...
> 
> #1 If I'm OK with the overall bass from everywhere except the sub (too loud) cant I just turn down the sub gain after calibration? because that's what i did and it sounds good, but didn't know if that would negatively effect anything else.
> 
> #2 When I did input cal after fixing my rca i noticed the signal the signal from the h/u said too loud then noisey, I assume its starting to clip and i should try not to go past that point on the volume, but is that an accurate indicator or does it depend on the ms8 volume, I'd like to have it so I can turn it all the way up on the H/U without clipping it, is there a way to test this with the input audio track?
> 
> #3 Is there a way to change the x-over settings without inputting all the channels locations again?
> 
> #4 since the MS-10 may only exist in my dreams is there a possibility of some 2 way x-over modules that would link to and be controlled by the ms-8?
> 
> I gotta say I am very impressed with the MS-8, I haven't even taken out my mobile pre rta yet or made any adjustments to the EQ and it may sound better than my vette and tundra builds already, Its also my first center channel as well, looking forward to tweaking this to perfection, I may also try and put the mids into the door somehow to widen the stage even more, they wont fit in the stock locations though.
> 
> I may yank the 6 inch scan revs and replace them with some 8" vifa pl's I have because it seems like a waste using the scans in the car in such a narrow range, plus I wanted to build some home speakers to replace my Celestions which suck, I do have a pair of Senn HD800's and a Meier stage dac and Concerto crossfeed headphone set up to get me by though
> 
> God, if my wife knew all the money I have spent on audio over our 16 years together I'd be in deep ****.:laugh:
> 
> Thanks for the help Andy, and for making such a cool product.
> 
> Vin


1. Before you turn the sub amp down, try tuning a bit with the 31-band EQ. Cut 50-100Hz and see if you like that better.

2. Signal high means too much voltage on te signal input. Signl "noisy" means the signal is severely clipped. MS-8 can't do anything about the signal from your radio, so the answer to the question is "no, but it should be useful to know where your radio clips or where the input of MS-8 clips."

3. No. MS-8 builds the system in a serial process and it has to start at the beginning when you configure the system. While it's a little inconvenient, it doesn't take very long. 

4. we have a pair of amps in this series that have crossovers built in and designed to work with MS-8. Check out the MS-A1004.


----------



## Salami

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> 4. we have a pair of amps in this series that have crossovers built in and designed to work with MS-8. Check out the MS-A1004.




Whoa..........hold on a minute.,,,,,,,

How can the MS-A100.4 work with the MS-8? Does this mean I can add the extra channels I want by using this amp? How would it work?


----------



## quietfly

Salami said:


> Whoa..........hold on a minute.,,,,,,,
> 
> How can the MS-A100.4 work with the MS-8? Does this mean I can add the extra channels I want by using this amp? How would it work?


 that i know of it just has built in wide range electronic xovers . probably similar to the ones in the MS 8 so you can run active 3 way by running choosing 2 way on the ms8 and using the band pass/ hp/lp on the a1004 to further break up your signal........


----------



## subwoofery

Salami said:


> Whoa..........hold on a minute.,,,,,,,
> 
> How can the MS-A100.4 work with the MS-8? Does this mean I can add the extra channels I want by using this amp? How would it work?


MS-A100.4 can do it, Zapco Ref can do it (has T/A too), XR4S can do it (believe has T/A), Mosconi 120.4 DSP can do it (has T/A too). Just use a set of Y-splitter and you're good to go... 

Kelvin


----------



## pionkej

subwoofery said:


> MS-A100.4 can do it, Zapco Ref can do it (has T/A too), XR4S can do it (believe has T/A), Mosconi 120.4 DSP can do it (has T/A too). Just use a set of Y-splitter and you're good to go...
> 
> Kelvin


I think you mean Zapco DC (ref series is cheaper with no DSP). I agree with everything else though.


----------



## Salami

quietfly said:


> that i know of it just has built in wide range electronic xovers . probably similar to the ones in the MS 8 so you can run active 3 way by running choosing 2 way on the ms8 and using the band pass/ hp/lp on the a1004 to further break up your signal........





subwoofery said:


> MS-A100.4 can do it, Zapco Ref can do it (has T/A too), XR4S can do it (believe has T/A), Mosconi 120.4 DSP can do it (has T/A too). Just use a set of Y-splitter and you're good to go...
> 
> Kelvin


Your guy's interpretation is apparently different than mine. 

I know I can add any of these amps using tricks and adapters. The way it was worded that gave me the impression that using 1004 might allow the MS-8 to function as a 10-12 channel MS-8, ie auto-tune all channels. 

Thought I stumbled onto something here. Back to dreaming.


----------



## quietfly

Salami said:


> Your guy's interpretation is apparently different than mine.
> 
> I know I can add any of these amps using tricks and adapters. The way it was worded that gave me the impression that using 1004 might allow the MS-8 to function as a 10-12 channel MS-8, ie auto-tune all channels.
> 
> Thought I stumbled onto something here. Back to dreaming.


lol I WISH..... My dream would be daisy chainable MS-8s.... with processor power that would stack...... hmmmm some 16 -24 channel loving...


----------



## subwoofery

quietfly said:


> lol I WISH..... My dream would be daisy chainable MS-8s.... with processor power that would stack...... hmmmm some 16 -24 channel loving...


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1104606-post21.html 

Kelvin


----------



## quietfly

i've seen that before, i was just saying channels 1-16 assignable from the same menu would rock. as well as a system output display....


----------



## thehatedguy

Rear speaker question from the other page....?


----------



## Salami

thehatedguy said:


> Rear speaker question from the other page....?



Yeah I want to know this also.


----------



## 14642

quietfly said:


> that i know of it just has built in wide range electronic xovers . probably similar to the ones in the MS 8 so you can run active 3 way by running choosing 2 way on the ms8 and using the band pass/ hp/lp on the a1004 to further break up your signal........


Right.


----------



## 14642

Regarding the additional channels and daisey-chainable MS-8s: I have something up my sleeve, but it's not precisely as you describe--might be better. We'll see what happens.


----------



## Salami

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Regarding the additional channels and daisey-chainable MS-8s: I have something up my sleeve, but it's not precisely as you describe--might be better. We'll see what happens.



I know it is huge can of worms but can you spill any details? Even a ball park ETA would be cool. 

Anything. Something. Please?


----------



## t3sn4f2

thehatedguy said:


> Andy, speaking of the rear speakers...mine are in the factory locations on the rear deck- one right behind each seat and pointing up at the glass. Would there be any benefit to moving them out wider so that they are not directly behind each head? And/or aiming them more into the car at the passenger's head?
> 
> I replaced the factory rears with 6x9 coaxes, and being regular coaxes there is only a cap on the tweeter...so I am very positive that directivity is pretty narrow where the woofer and tweeter met. Better passives? 3 way rear?


TTT


----------



## thehatedguy

Would be nice to daisy chain 2 MS-8s via the USB connection if that is possible.


----------



## quietfly

t3sn4f2 said:


> TTT


You should be ok, the T/A measures off the tweets anyway, and the rest of the calibration for the sides/rears is minus any real low end content. On top of that the ~20ms delay dialed in will give anything coming from back there a nice ambience. 

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


----------



## t3sn4f2

quietfly said:


> You should be ok, the T/A measures off the tweets anyway, and the rest of the calibration for the sides/rears is minus any real low end content. On top of that the ~20ms delay dialed in will give anything coming from back there a nice ambience.
> 
> Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


I'm thinking if the L/R spacing affects that ambient effect. Since the rear output is phase related, I figure the further to the sides of the listening position they are the better. Also which range is critical in that.


----------



## quietfly

t3sn4f2 said:


> I'm thinking if the L/R spacing affects that ambient effect. Since the rear output is phase related, I figure the further to the sides of the listening position they are the better. Also which range is critical in that.



you might be over thinking it. Andy has said for the most part it wouldn't be spacing related. i'd say try it first before you go buy other speakers and make other mounting solutions...


----------



## MikeF

A search of the Forum has revealed only one post which might be related to this question - and nothing from this particular thread, but I don't know if it is the same issue ... plus that person seems to have a history of crapping on the MS-8 and therefore has most likely no credibility. Hopefully not a serious issue, but looking for those who might have experienced something similiar before I start down the process of elimination. Also ... there is nothing in the owners manual which speaks to this issue that I can find.

Yesterday, when a particular song came on the air, I cranked up the volume - nothing I haven't done before, and something I had done as recently as 2 or 3 songs earlier. However, when the song ended and I went to turn the volume down, nothing happened. The unit seems to be frozen. No input is being received from the remote - volume, mute, menu, up/down ... nothing, and the display is fixed in the Input Display position. As I had not noted any previous problems during this same listening session indicating a weak battery, I'm wondering if anybody else has experienced this particular problem. I hoped that when I arrived at my destination and then started the return trip something might have tripped, but that didn't happen. I'm just wondering if this seems to definitely indicate a need for a new battery for the remote (unit originally installed 15 months ago), or if rebooting the main unit is required. I'm going to first try unplugging and reinserting the control for the display from the main unit as step number one. Hesitation for rebooting because by definition rebooting means losing all current settings ... and if it is the battery then I'm doa until I replace the battery anyway. Any thoughts ... and/or (preferrably) personal experiences to identify the culprit? I've already had to go through the reboot process once before because of a 'pumping' issue with the rear/side channels which rebooting the main unit did correct. Hoping this - along with the previous issue - isn't an indicator of internal breakdown of the unit proper.

Thanks.


----------



## taibanl

The reset button is the same as power cycling the unit. No loss of settings

Mine has froze twice before


----------



## quietfly

taibanl said:


> The reset button is the same as power cycling the unit. No loss of settings
> 
> Mine has froze twice before


+++1


----------



## Sean Morrison

Does anyone have any experience going in and repairing the internal amp? Any tips on what the weak component is or what to look for? I"ve successfully repaired an old PPI A600 before by soldering in replacement fets, bridge rectifiers, and a power supply chip, so I have some basic soldering skills.


----------



## thehatedguy

Waves at Andy


----------



## 14642

thehatedguy said:


> Waves at Andy


Huh?


----------



## thehatedguy

Rear speaker positioning, placement, XO question from the other page.


----------



## thehatedguy

Bump for Andy




thehatedguy said:


> Andy, speaking of the rear speakers...mine are in the factory locations on the rear deck- one right behind each seat and pointing up at the glass. Would there be any benefit to moving them out wider so that they are not directly behind each head? And/or aiming them more into the car at the passenger's head?
> 
> I replaced the factory rears with 6x9 coaxes, and being regular coaxes there is only a cap on the tweeter...so I am very positive that directivity is pretty narrow where the woofer and tweeter met. Better passives? 3 way rear?


----------



## t3sn4f2

..........


----------



## 14642

Sorry guys. Here's the skinny on rear speakers. 

Ambient information that's recorded 180 degrees out of phase in L and R is steered to the rear. The discreet information in a DVD is mixed into the 2-channel downmix out of phase. That means, if you play a DVD and choose the 2-channel downmix, it'll play back in full surround. 

Live 2-channel recordings where a mic or two is/are used to capture the room will also sound great and believable. Studio recordings where some room synthesis is added to the mix will too. Dry studio recordings without much ambinece won't provide much to the rear speakers, so they'll sound like the disc too. 

Once the initial delay settings have been captured and implemented in setup, L7 adds 12mS to the sides and 20mS to the rear. This helps to add a sense of space and to further decorrelate the rear signals from the front. When signals steer front, one of the side one of the rear channels are polarity swapped to anchor the front stage. When signals steer rear, the channel is in correct polarity. L7 samples the signal every few milliseconds. 

Much of the ambient information is midrange and high frequency. If your side speakers don't include a tweeter, add one and put it in the top of the door panel so they have a direct path to your ear. Low frequencies should be kept out of the sides and rears--remember, the polarity is swapped and that will afect the location of the midbasss. Just cross them at 100 Hz or higher and use a steep slope. 

L7 does a good job of resolving rear left and right--better than many of the other upmixers, so there is a benefit in having side speakers. Speakers in the rear package tray reflect off the glass at all angles, so they won't provide the best resolution of left and right. 

So, my suggestions are:

1. Use at least one pair of speakers in the back. 
2. If you can put in four but want to biamp your front speakers using MS-8's crossover, connect sides and rears in parallel. It's very difficult to hear the difference between that and a full 7.1. Is there a benefit? A small one, but depending on where your tweeters are or if you're using midbass drivers and mids in the front, the benefit of the bi-amp is bigger.
3. See note about side speaker tweeters above. 
4. Side speakers may help to provide a sense of width, rear speakers will help to provide more depth. Neither will move a hard left or hard right sound outside the car, but both will help to make the car's space seem a little larger WITH SOME RECORDINGS. 
5. Logic 7 isn't room synthesis. It doesn't MAKE a room, it helps to resolve on that's on the recording. 
6. IF you don't have rear speakers, turn off L7.


----------



## quietfly

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Regarding the additional channels and daisey-chainable MS-8s: I have something up my sleeve, but it's not precisely as you describe--might be better. We'll see what happens.



I don't want to let this fall to the side..... can we have any more info on this?
:laugh:


I know, i know , we are spoiled having you(Andy W) on our forum and we ask you for a lot, But i'd like to think out of the 1000+ of these baby's you've sold a solid 30% of the user base is represented on this board. Most of us are OVERWHELMINGLY grateful to you for the insights in to the MS-8 you and Adam have shared. 
We are just information junkies.... 

Please and Thank you !!!
-Q


----------



## thehatedguy

Cool, so I need to get my rear speakers somewhere else for best results.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Much of the ambient information is midrange and high frequency. If your side speakers don't include a tweeter, add one and put it in the top of the door panel so they have a direct path to your ear. Low frequencies should be kept out of the sides and rears--remember, *the polarity is swapped and that will afect the location of the midbasss. Just cross them at 100 Hz or higher and use a steep slope*.


Andy, whats the high limit you recommend? 100Hz would make it harder to install a speaker closer to the sides say the d pillar instead of rear deck since the driver would typically have to be larger, have more air space behind it, and be would less efficient.


----------



## pionkej

t3sn4f2 said:


> Andy, whats the high limit you recommend? 100Hz would make it harder to install a speaker closer to the sides say the d pillar instead of rear deck since the driver would typically have to be larger, have more air space behind it, and be would less efficient.


I know I'm not Andy, but I've had good luck with 300hz for ambient fill. I have 3" Hertz HL70's in my Maxima and (2) 2" Aura Whisper's in my Murano for rear fill and was concerned about them not being able to go low enough. What I did was used my front 5.25's in my Maxima as "rears" and tried them at 100hz, 200hz, and 300hz since they were capable of playing all three ranges. I noticed no appreciable difference and felt fine with using my 300hz crossover point. 

Hope that helps.


----------



## quietfly

pionkej said:


> I know I'm not Andy, but I've had good luck with 300hz for ambient fill. I have 3" Hertz HL70's in my Maxima and (2) 2" Aura Whisper's in my Murano for rear fill and was concerned about them not being able to go low enough. What I did was used my front 5.25's in my Maxima as "rears" and tried them at 100hz, 200hz, and 300hz since they were capable of playing all three ranges. I noticed no appreciable difference and felt fine with using my 300hz crossover point.
> 
> Hope that helps.


+++1 
I also currently cross over my rears in the 315 range and also do not notice a difference from when i crossed them over in the 100 range..


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> Andy, whats the high limit you recommend? 100Hz would make it harder to install a speaker closer to the sides say the d pillar instead of rear deck since the driver would typically have to be larger, have more air space behind it, and be would less efficient.


 
I've used 3" drivers crossed as high as 300 HZ and that worked fine.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Cool, thanks guys.


----------



## Mark the Bold

Hello Andy,

Just returned from a long road trip with a couple of friends. Both are musicians and were extremely impressed with JBL MS-8 the whole time. The music always sounded focused and never got fatiguing with some trips going 7+ hours. Thanks again for making such an awesome product. I always listen to it in the driver pre-set position, but when set to front it was much more pleasing to everyone inside the vehicle which I guess is its whole purpose.

I do have a question: Does JBL have any plans to further miniaturize the MS-8? More specifically, is there a possibility to remove all internal amplication and just have the stand-alone DSP? I know the amps are needed for people doing a totally factory integrated install. But in the DIY world most of us have external amps on all channels and I'd wager a lot of the MS-8's guts real estate is devoted for the amplification / power components.

Just curious. No complaints at all. The reason I bring it up, is that I just met with a guy here in Phoenix who showed me the Helix PP50DSP which I thought was targeting that market. I'm totally sold on the MS-8 but I like the PP50DSP as it uses all the existing factory amplifiers / speakers which the MS-8 does not. And its small.

No doubt you guys are well aware of this; but I'm the sure the MS-8 could easily do the same thing with only very minor modifications to it. Call in a MS-8 mini, I don't know.


----------



## quietfly

Mark the Bold said:


> Hello Andy,
> 
> I do have a question: Does JBL have any plans to further miniaturize the MS-8? More specifically, is there a possibility to remove all internal amplication and just have the stand-alone DSP? I know the amps are needed for people doing a totally factory integrated install. But in the DIY world most of us have external amps on all channels and I'd wager a lot of the MS-8's guts real estate is devoted for the amplification / power components.
> 
> ...


I'd take this one stage further and ask if you removed the Amplifier section, would it be possible to house another 8 channels (or more) of DSP in it and get an MS-16 or 32... LOL .....

But you get the ideal. Though Daisy chain-able Via USB would be pretty sweet too.....


----------



## thehatedguy

Andy, what about bipole rear speakers to spread out the ambiance?


----------



## Hdale85

Can anyone comment on how good the output level is running off the internal amps?


----------



## Nathan_h

Hdale85 said:


> Can anyone comment on how good the output level is running off the internal amps?


What do you mean "good"?


----------



## Hdale85

As in, quality of amplification and also output, how loud can it get? Think I saw someone say 20 watts per channel on the internal amps.


----------



## subwoofery

Hdale85 said:


> As in, quality of amplification and also output, how loud can it get? Think I saw someone say 20 watts per channel on the internal amps.


20w from the MS-8 will sound just as loud as 20w from an external amplifier  

Kelvin


----------



## Hdale85

Which is???? I've never heard a 20 watt amp in any situation. The lowest wattage amp I've used was a DIY 50wpc amp that I built in my home setup.


----------



## Nathan_h

Hdale85 said:


> As in, quality of amplification and also output, how loud can it get? Think I saw someone say 20 watts per channel on the internal amps.


Can get loud, but not show car loud, with efficient speakers. Is insufficient for other speakers, especially subs.

General:

Output 4 Ohms: 18W x 8 channels @4 ohms
Output 2 Ohms: 30W x 8 channels @2 ohms
Frequency Response: 20Hz – 20kHz
Signal-to-Noise Ratio: (Line-in/Line out): >90dB (Line-in/Speaker out): >85dB
Maximum input signal: 15 Volts (Speaker Level Input) 2.8 Volts (Line Input)
Dimensions: Main Unit Dimensions (L x W x H): 11-1/2" x 7-3/8" x 2-1/8" Display Unit Dimensions (H x W x D, including stand): 3-1/8" x 3-3/8" x 2-7/16" 
Weight: Weight: Main unit – 6.4 lb (2.9kg) Display unit – 2.8 oz (80g) Remote control – 1.4 oz (40g)


----------



## thehatedguy

Andy, what is Pro6band zip file on the EU JBL site?


----------



## naiku

Finally ordered mine this morning, now I am already being impatient about it arriving. Now to really try and figure out what I can fit for a center channel. I may leave the stock in there for now, at least until I can find something to fit.


----------



## antikryst

Nathan_h said:


> Can get loud, but not show car loud, with efficient speakers. Is insufficient for other speakers, especially subs.
> 
> General:
> 
> Output 4 Ohms: 18W x 8 channels @4 ohms
> Output 2 Ohms: 30W x 8 channels @2 ohms
> Frequency Response: 20Hz – 20kHz
> Signal-to-Noise Ratio: (Line-in/Line out): >90dB (Line-in/Speaker out): >85dB
> Maximum input signal: 15 Volts (Speaker Level Input) 2.8 Volts (Line Input)
> Dimensions: Main Unit Dimensions (L x W x H): 11-1/2" x 7-3/8" x 2-1/8" Display Unit Dimensions (H x W x D, including stand): 3-1/8" x 3-3/8" x 2-7/16"
> Weight: Weight: Main unit – 6.4 lb (2.9kg) Display unit – 2.8 oz (80g) Remote control – 1.4 oz (40g)


so the ms8 does real 18W rms? would it be enough for 8 ohm focal TNB tweeters so i can just grab an ms8 and run active with what i have without adding an additional amp?

that would bring me to 90W for the focal v30 woofer, 18W for the TNB tweeter, 240W bridged for the focal 21v2 sub. 

any thoughts?


----------



## thomasluke

antikryst said:


> so the ms8 does real 18W rms? would it be enough for 8 ohm focal TNB tweeters so i can just grab an ms8 and run active with what i have without adding an additional amp?
> 
> that would bring me to 90W for the focal v30 woofer, 18W for the TNB tweeter, 240W bridged for the focal 21v2 sub.
> 
> any thoughts?


You would'nt be getting the full 18 at 8 ohms. would only be like 9-10.
Still might work.


----------



## antikryst

thomasluke said:


> You would'nt be getting the full 18 at 8 ohms. would only be like 9-10.
> Still might work.


i know. question is... would that be enough 

anyone run the ms8 internal amp on focal tweets?


----------



## thomasluke

antikryst said:


> i know. question is... would that be enough
> 
> anyone run the ms8 internal amp on focal tweets?


I ran some dls tweets on mine for a shot time and it was ok.
The problem i had was level matching everything else to them. 
Just couldnt get the volume i wanted like that so i got a used 50x2 old school mtx from a pawn shop i town and now the noise floor is giving me hell. So......


----------



## antikryst

thomasluke said:


> I ran some dls tweets on mine for a shot time and it was ok.
> The problem i had was level matching everything else to them.
> Just couldnt get the volume i wanted like that so i got a used 50x2 old school mtx from a pawn shop i town and now the noise floor is giving me hell. So......


did they get loud though? but not as loud as you want right? hard that loud is a relative term hahah.


----------



## thomasluke

antikryst said:


> did they get loud though? but not as loud as you want right? hard that loud is a relative term hahah.


:laugh: I mean it was ok. I just knew that there was alot more potential in the set up.
But ya it was kinda loud just when ever i wanted to really crank it i would get a little mad.:laugh:


----------



## subwoofery

thomasluke said:


> I ran some dls tweets on mine for a shot time and it was ok.
> The problem i had was level matching everything else to them.
> Just couldnt get the volume i wanted like that so i got a used 50x2 old school mtx from a pawn shop i town and now the noise floor is giving me hell. So......


All DLS tweeters are 4 ohmers... 

Kelvin


----------



## smellygas

Can the MS-8 be used to drive 2-way component speakers in 2-way mode and still use their passive crossovers? (or are you forced to use MS-8's active crossovers in 2-way mode)


----------



## Hdale85

If running the passive X-overs you'd just use one output for each side from the MS-8. To run each driver off the MS-8 you'd be running active without the passive crossover.


----------



## smellygas

Hdale85 said:


> If running the passive X-overs you'd just use one output for each side from the MS-8. To run each driver off the MS-8 you'd be running active without the passive crossover.


Oh bummer. Then you'd lose the T/A for each driver. Strange that JBL doesn't let you choose "no active crossover" when running 2-way or 3-way mode.


----------



## Hdale85

You can't control T/A through a passive crossover, if you think about it you're not making much sense! lol. You could control T/A between each passive crossover, but if you're using a passive crossover that is connected to a component set (mid and tweet) then you can only feed it a single source. Now there are some set's that allow bi-amping and you can actually feed it multiple sources. I know my brother in laws DLS Iridiums allow you to do that, and I think the Alpine SPX-17PRO's I have in my VW will as well. SO it kind of depends on the set but some will allow you to do that.


----------



## quietfly

Hdale85 said:


> You can't control T/A through a passive crossover, if you think about it you're not making much sense! lol. You could control T/A between each passive crossover, but if you're using a passive crossover that is connected to a component set (mid and tweet) then you can only feed it a single source. Now there are some set's that allow bi-amping and you can actually feed it multiple sources. I know my brother in laws DLS Iridiums allow you to do that, and I think the Alpine SPX-17PRO's I have in my VW will as well. SO it kind of depends on the set but some will allow you to do that.


ACtually there is a work around for this. simply disconnect the tweeters for the first set of sweeps (the T/A) then reconnect for the next set of sweeps. Viola! you have passive T/A... Andy explains it a whole lot better. but that's the gist


----------



## Hdale85

Hmm, it seems like it would then apply it to all drivers on that crossover though, but I guess if it works it works lol. I was unaware of this though.


----------



## quietfly

Hdale85 said:


> Hmm, it seems like it would then apply it to all drivers on that crossover though, but I guess if it works it works lol. I was unaware of this though.


yeah it does, but the point is to time align to your mids. Or technically the drivers farthest away....


----------



## smellygas

Hdale85 said:


> You can't control T/A through a passive crossover, if you think about it you're not making much sense! lol. You could control T/A between each passive crossover, but if you're using a passive crossover that is connected to a component set (mid and tweet) then you can only feed it a single source. Now there are some set's that allow bi-amping and you can actually feed it multiple sources.


Right, I'm referring to bi-ampable components (separate inputs and outputs for each driver)



quietfly said:


> ACtually there is a work around for this. simply disconnect the tweeters for the first set of sweeps (the T/A) then reconnect for the next set of sweeps. Viola! you have passive T/A... Andy explains it a whole lot better. but that's the gist


Sure, but you still are only getting T/A for the mids. Your tweeters will have the same delay as the mids, which would only work if your tweeters were the same distance as your mids. 

Oh well.


----------



## Hdale85

Well if your components are bi-ampable then yeah you'd just run one output to each input of each driver. So 2 way components would use 4 outputs for L/R. Then you'd have everything an active setup would except the active crossover.


----------



## nineball

smellygas said:


> Right, I'm referring to bi-ampable components (separate inputs and outputs for each driver)


what you are doing makes no sense. there is no need for the passive crossover if you are powering each speaker independently. the ms-8 can do what the passive can do so the need is eliminated.


----------



## smellygas

Hdale85 said:


> Well if your components are bi-ampable then yeah you'd just run one output to each input of each driver. So 2 way components would use 4 outputs for L/R. Then you'd have everything an active setup would except the active crossover.


Right. But I don't think MS-8 has a way to turn off its active crossover when running 4 outputs for a 2-way setup. i.e. you're forced to use the MS-8's active crossover. 



nineball said:


> what you are doing makes no sense. there is no need for the passive crossover if you are powering each speaker independently. the ms-8 can do what the passive can do so the need is eliminated.


The MS-8 can certainly not do what a high-end passive crossover can do. An optimized passive crossover will typically have different "cutoff" frequencies for the LP and HP. The slopes aren't always the same (e.g. 2nd order LP, 3rd order HP), and often times they rely on the natural rolloff of a driver to help achieve the final crossover slope so that the drivers sum flat.

If you use a manufacturer's optimized passive crossover network, they would probably be optimized with the assumption that the drivers are relatively equidistant. If you suddenly mount the drivers at different distances, this can introduce lobing/cancellation, a bump FR curve, and it's not easily correctable because of the out-of-phase cancellation. So this is why I want to T/A all drivers and use the optimized passive crossovers. I hope that makes sense.


----------



## nineball

smellygas said:


> The MS-8 can certainly not do what a high-end passive crossover can do. An optimized passive crossover will typically have different "cutoff" frequencies for the LP and HP. The slopes aren't always the same (e.g. 2nd order LP, 3rd order HP), and often times they rely on the natural rolloff of a driver to help achieve the final crossover slope so that the drivers sum flat.
> 
> If you use a manufacturer's optimized passive crossover network, they would probably be optimized with the assumption that the drivers are relatively equidistant. If you suddenly mount the drivers at different distances, this can introduce lobing/cancellation, a bump FR curve, and it's not easily correctable because of the out-of-phase cancellation. So this is why I want to T/A all drivers and use the optimized passive crossovers. I hope that makes sense.


you can set the crossover point and slope on the ms-8 to whatever you wish. you can mimic the passive settings or try your own as every installation is different.


----------



## smellygas

nineball said:


> you can set the crossover point and slope on the ms-8 to whatever you wish. you can mimic the passive settings or try your own as every installation is different.


Really? So, I can set a 2nd order L-W LP at 2.5kHz AND a 3rd order Butterworth at 3.2kHz? I thought I would only be able to set a single frequency (e.g. 2.5kHz HP/LP, 2nd order, no alignment option).


----------



## Hdale85

You can adjust settings for each driver individually. That's kind of the point


----------



## smellygas

Hdale85 said:


> You can adjust settings for each driver individually. That's kind of the point





nineball said:


> you can set the crossover point and slope on the ms-8 to whatever you wish. you can mimic the passive settings or try your own as every installation is different.


You both might want to read page 29 of the MS-8 manual. It's not possible to choose 2 different frequencies/slopes for the HP and LP between 2 drivers.


----------



## subwoofery

smellygas said:


> You both might want to read page 29 of the MS-8 manual. It's not possible to choose 2 different frequencies/slopes for the HP and LP between 2 drivers.


Different slopes for HP and LP becomes unnecessary with T/A. If you use the MS-8, take your passive Xover out and hide it in a drawer... 

Kelvin


----------



## antikryst

subwoofery said:


> All DLS tweeters are 4 ohmers...
> 
> Kelvin


i wanna jump on the ms8 and just use the 20W internal amp for my focal tweets but I'm afraid they won't be enough. you think it would be ok?

no budget really for another amp and the ms8.


----------



## subwoofery

antikryst said:


> i wanna jump on the ms8 and just use the 20W internal amp for my focal tweets but I'm afraid they won't be enough. you think it would be ok?
> 
> no budget really for another amp and the ms8.


To be honest, I'm scared of 2 things: 
- first, I don't know how loud you listen to your music and don't know how the MS-8 will react if it sees a level mismatch between your tweets and your mids - boosting the tweet freqs? Maybe but that will add distortion... 
- secondly, I don't know if the internal MS-8 amp will handle the 8 ohm load without hiccups... I know some amps don't like 8 ohm loads (even high-end ones)... 

Really, I cannot answer and don't want you wasting money on my suggestion. 

Kelvin 

PS: did you play with your tweeter's polarity yet? <-- regarding your loss of bass...


----------



## kyheng

It is more than enough for tweeter.....


----------



## 14642

smellygas said:


> Right. But I don't think MS-8 has a way to turn off its active crossover when running 4 outputs for a 2-way setup. i.e. you're forced to use the MS-8's active crossover.
> 
> 
> 
> The MS-8 can certainly not do what a high-end passive crossover can do. An optimized passive crossover will typically have different "cutoff" frequencies for the LP and HP. The slopes aren't always the same (e.g. 2nd order LP, 3rd order HP), and often times they rely on the natural rolloff of a driver to help achieve the final crossover slope so that the drivers sum flat.
> 
> If you use a manufacturer's optimized passive crossover network, they would probably be optimized with the assumption that the drivers are relatively equidistant. If you suddenly mount the drivers at different distances, this can introduce lobing/cancellation, a bump FR curve, and it's not easily correctable because of the out-of-phase cancellation. So this is why I want to T/A all drivers and use the optimized passive crossovers. I hope that makes sense.


Well...it almost makes sense. Given any amount of money to develop a speaker set, a passive crossover can be made to perform better than an active crossover, unless that active crossover also includes EQ and time alignment. MS-8 in 2-way on a front set of mids and tweeters will ALWAYS outperform the passive that comes witih your car audio components, no ifs ands or buts. If you have enough channels to run 2-way in the front and do whatever else you need to do, then your primary objective should be in getting rid of the passive crossover. 

The reason i suggest covering the tweeters for time alignment measurements when you use passives is because it's much more important to align the mids. In the range that those play, we're much more sensitive to phase response (ITD). At high frequencies, we don't hear phase very well, so TA isn't very effective. The transition in our hearing happens around 1k.

If getting great sound is what you're after, there's no drawback to not being able to use bi-ampable passives with MS-8. If experimenting with stuff and making sure you can adhere to everyone's marketing fluff about their products is important to you, then MS-8 probably doesn't offer you enough ability to make erroneous choices in designing a system.


----------



## 14642

subwoofery said:


> To be honest, I'm scared of 2 things:
> - first, I don't know how loud you listen to your music and don't know how the MS-8 will react if it sees a level mismatch between your tweets and your mids - boosting the tweet freqs? Maybe but that will add distortion...
> - secondly, I don't know if the internal MS-8 amp will handle the 8 ohm load without hiccups... I know some amps don't like 8 ohm loads (even high-end ones)...
> 
> Really, I cannot answer and don't want you wasting money on my suggestion.
> 
> Kelvin
> 
> PS: did you play with your tweeter's polarity yet? <-- regarding your loss of bass...


It's very simple. If your tweeters are too inefficient to match your mids, MS-8 will boost the tweeters and cut the mids. The high frequency boost may add system hiss--just like turning up the 10k and the amp gains in a system with a manual EQ


----------



## aviator79

So I went to set it up and I had to put my OEM HU volume up all the way before SIGNAL went from NONE to OK. But LEVEL is saying LOW even with my HU volume on MAX. I have my HU soldered to some RCAs where the RCA wire is like 24g or something. So I assume my problem is I need to rewire it with 18g wire. I thought I wouldbe ok, but I guess not. Maybe I have a bad solder joint alos PITA. SHould have just redone it from the begining. I had the RCA soldered in running to the amps originally.


----------



## bhammer

I have my system configured and ran through the ms8 setup a couple times. Each time, I am not real happy with the sound. Currently, any types of voices sound hollow or far off. Also, the bass from the sub is over powering. I have tried configuring the fronts as a one way and a 2 way setup. I have everything on the HU set to neutral, the ms8 to neutral and volume at 10. 

I have to admit, I am ignorant when it comes to xovers and slopes. The more I read though, the clearer I become. I am looking for help in the proper setup, xover and slopes to use. Here is how mine is configured and the equipment:

Subs - 2 Boston Acoustics G210-44 - 20-350 Hz 
Center - 1 Polk Audio db351 - 90-22,000 Hz 
Front - 2 Image Dynamics CTX-6.5cs - 55-25,000 Hz 
Rear - 2 Infinity Reference 9633cf - 46-30,000 Hz

From my hu, I have front L&R into chnl 1 & 2. The output channels are:

1. FL Mid
2. FR Mid
3. RL
4. RR
5. FL Tweet
6. FR Tweet
7. Center
8 Sub


----------



## quietfly

bhammer said:


> I have my system configured and ran through the ms8 setup a couple times. Each time, I am not real happy with the sound. Currently, any types of voices sound hollow or far off. Also, the bass from the sub is over powering. I have tried configuring the fronts as a one way and a 2 way setup. I have everything on the HU set to neutral, the ms8 to neutral and volume at 10.
> 
> I have to admit, I am ignorant when it comes to xovers and slopes. The more I read though, the clearer I become. I am looking for help in the proper setup, xover and slopes to use. Here is how mine is configured and the equipment:
> 
> Subs - 2 Boston Acoustics G210-44 - 20-350 Hz
> Center - 1 Polk Audio db351 - 90-22,000 Hz
> Front - 2 Image Dynamics CTX-6.5cs - 55-25,000 Hz
> Rear - 2 Infinity Reference 9633cf - 46-30,000 Hz
> 
> From my hu, I have front L&R into chnl 1 & 2. The output channels are:
> 
> 1. FL Mid
> 2. FR Mid
> 3. RL
> 4. RR
> 5. FL Tweet
> 6. FR Tweet
> 7. Center
> 8 Sub


please tell us more about your setup
what type of car
what type of head unit
what type of enclosure for subs....
etc...
everything that involves your sound system should be listed. 

What slopes are you running?
external amps ? all processing on the amps turned off, or by passed?

i can make some Basic suggestions already but more info will help me help you . 

first set your subsonic at 25-30hz's what ever is recommended and @24db
then run your rears as sides and hp them at 300ish
Next if running your front as 2ways set up your mids to bandpass from 90 to 2000 and try your tweets from 2000 up both at 24db (make sure you use a cap on your tweeter to protect it from turn on/turn off thumping)
Also try running your center from 300 @ 24db's up as a one way. that tiny 3.5 speaker is probably choking if you feeding it 90hz and up. 
try setting your sub xover at 100 @24 db's


Also re: calibration, if you have too much sub, raise the gain on the sub amp in small increments until the sub level is acceptable. 
With external amps for every channel you should be level matching your gains so that the output from the Level matching stage (right before the sweeps, and right after the output assignments) is "low audible" when the MS-8 is set at between -20 and -30. 

try those suggestions,
Read the manual. 
come back and ask questions...
hope this is at least a start.


----------



## bhammer

Thanks for the feedback. I'll give those a shot. Here's some more info:

It is a Mazda RX-8
Kenwood 9980
Seal enclosure 1.46 total for both subs made by myself. Pressure checked for leaks.

Everything is BNIB
Massive NX-2 for the mids and rears gains set by scope
Massive NX-2 for tweets and center gains set by meter to make sure not over driving them
Massive N2 for the subs set by scope
DIY rca for all checked by meter for proper connections. Shield grounded only on one end.

Tweets are in the door pillar (OEM location)
Mids in the front doors
Center on the dash
Subs in the trunk

Currently, everything on the ms8 is set at the suggested levels. I have tried several differnt things though. Everything on the amps is off or at it's minimum levels. I am not using anything but the ms8 for xover.





quietfly said:


> please tell us more about your setup
> what type of car
> what type of head unit
> what type of enclosure for subs....
> etc...
> everything that involves your sound system should be listed.
> 
> What slopes are you running?
> external amps ? all processing on the amps turned off, or by passed?
> 
> i can make some Basic suggestions already but more info will help me help you .
> 
> first set your subsonic at 25-30hz's what ever is recommended and @24db
> then run your rears as sides and hp them at 300ish
> Next if running your front as 2ways set up your mids to bandpass from 90 to 2000 and try your tweets from 2000 up both at 24db (make sure you use a cap on your tweeter to protect it from turn on/turn off thumping)
> Also try running your center from 300 @ 24db's up as a one way. that tiny 3.5 speaker is probably choking if you feeding it 90hz and up.
> try setting your sub xover at 100 @24 db's
> 
> 
> Also re: calibration, if you have too much sub, raise the gain on the sub amp in small increments until the sub level is acceptable.
> With external amps for every channel you should be level matching your gains so that the output from the Level matching stage (right before the sweeps, and right after the output assignments) is "low audible" when the MS-8 is set at between -20 and -30.
> 
> try those suggestions,
> Read the manual.
> come back and ask questions...
> hope this is at least a start.


----------



## aviator79

aviator79 said:


> So I went to set it up and I had to put my OEM HU volume up all the way before SIGNAL went from NONE to OK. But LEVEL is saying LOW even with my HU volume on MAX. I have my HU soldered to some RCAs where the RCA wire is like 24g or something. So I assume my problem is I need to rewire it with 18g wire. I thought I wouldbe ok, but I guess not. Maybe I have a bad solder joint alos PITA. SHould have just redone it from the begining. I had the RCA soldered in running to the amps originally.


Ran new wires and same issue. I didnt think that the wire were the issue, so does that mean my MS-8 is DOA?


----------



## rain27

aviator79 said:


> Ran new wires and same issue. I didnt think that the wire were the issue, so does that mean my MS-8 is DOA?


Have you tried it with an aftermarket hu?


----------



## 14642

aviator79 said:


> Ran new wires and same issue. I didnt think that the wire were the issue, so does that mean my MS-8 is DOA?


 
Probably not. What year is the RX8? I'll look it up for you.


----------



## aviator79

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Probably not. What year is the RX8? I'll look it up for you.


It is an 06 mazdaspeed6. I have a spare OEM HU, but the remote out is bad on it so I would have to power the remote with an ACC. I guess I can try that later but Ive used this HU before so not sure why it would now be Fed up.
THanks.


----------



## aviator79

aviator79 said:


> It is an 06 mazdaspeed6. I have a spare OEM HU, but the remote out is bad on it so I would have to power the remote with an ACC. I guess I can try that later but Ive used this HU before so not sure why it would now be Fed up.
> Thanks.


Guess my problem is I need to be going into the RCA inputs not the speaker level inputs (OEM amp removed). Well I will go soder some RCA plugs on when I get home. Dumbass chasing my tail.


----------



## 14642

If you had the BOSE system and you removed the amp and are using the preamp outputs of the head, you do have to use the RCA inputs.


----------



## MUGWUMP

I made my own thread but it didn't get any replies. Maybe someone will read this here.

I'll just list my car/equipment and my plans any maybe someone could answer a few questions for me. I've searched this a lot, but maybe I'm just asking the wrong questions...

2012 Mustang GT with Shaker 500 sound system.

I am keeping the factory stereo(Unless someones got a good idea where I can mount the Alpine CDA-117 I have from my old car. The Metra kit is a joke.). I plan on using an MS-8 to get a good signal to my amps.

I have an IDMAX12 powered by an American Bass VFL75.1 that will be in a 1.5 cubic foot sealed box. I'm told it's around 6-700 watts RMS.

I just ordered a set of Focal 165 VB components for the front. I haven't decided on an amp for them yet. I plan on mounting the 6.5 in place of where the factory 8" subs are. There is a small sealed enclosure there that may work well. I will put the tweeter in place of the factory 5x7 in the door. I may consider turning the set into a 3-way component system in the future if there is enough room here to mount a3 or 4" speaker with the tweet.

Here's the MS-8 question. Will I be ok just using the L-R speaker outputs from the factory head unit for the MS-8? I'm planning on removing the amp for the 8" door subs. Will I need to keep these to get the signal to the MS-8 for my Sub?


----------



## taibanl

Andy,

This is related to MS-8 I swear....

The infinity 42.9i has a 2ohm voice coil, but your marketing materials list it as True 4-ohm technology.



grygabrielphon said:


> Actually, now that you mention it... these are 2 ohm speakers! Though, it does say this:
> 
> "True Four Ohm Impedance technology: speaker's 2-ohm impedance combines with speaker wire impedance for a 4-ohm load"


What in the world :shrug:


----------



## thomasluke

MUGWUMP said:


> I made my own thread but it didn't get any replies. Maybe someone will read this here.
> 
> I'll just list my car/equipment and my plans any maybe someone could answer a few questions for me. I've searched this a lot, but maybe I'm just asking the wrong questions...
> 
> 2012 Mustang GT with Shaker 500 sound system.
> 
> I am keeping the factory stereo(Unless someones got a good idea where I can mount the Alpine CDA-117 I have from my old car. The Metra kit is a joke.). I plan on using an MS-8 to get a good signal to my amps.
> 
> I have an IDMAX12 powered by an American Bass VFL75.1 that will be in a 1.5 cubic foot sealed box. I'm told it's around 6-700 watts RMS.
> 
> I just ordered a set of Focal 165 VB components for the front. I haven't decided on an amp for them yet. I plan on mounting the 6.5 in place of where the factory 8" subs are. There is a small sealed enclosure there that may work well. I will put the tweeter in place of the factory 5x7 in the door. I may consider turning the set into a 3-way component system in the future if there is enough room here to mount a3 or 4" speaker with the tweet.
> 
> Here's the MS-8 question. Will I be ok just using the L-R speaker outputs from the factory head unit for the MS-8? I'm planning on removing the amp for the 8" door subs. Will I need to keep these to get the signal to the MS-8 for my Sub?


Just left and right. 

p.s. Read the manual


----------



## MUGWUMP

thomasluke said:


> Just left and right.
> 
> p.s. Read the manual


Heh Thanks. Haven't gotten it yet. I'm researching this stuff to death. I think all I need now is to figure out an amp I want to run the components with. Everything I read leads me to getting something with 4 channels so I can run the components without the passive crossover. I see the MS-8 also has an amp. Maybe I should get the 4 channel and run the tweeters with the ms-8 and i can use the other 2 for the rear fill if I decide to use it or upgrade in the future.

Sound good?

Thanks again.


----------



## 14642

taibanl said:


> Andy,
> 
> This is related to MS-8 I swear....
> 
> The infinity 42.9i has a 2ohm voice coil, but your marketing materials list it as True 4-ohm technology.
> 
> 
> 
> What in the world :shrug:


So, "True 4 Ohm" was the work of some group of marketers. The point is that a speaker with a 2.7 ohm coil looks like a 4 ohm speaker to the radio when it's connected using 20 feet of 20 gauge wire and after the coil gets hot and its impedance rises a bit. A 4 ohm speaker looks like a 5 or 5.2 ohm speaker under those same conditions. Does an ohm matter? A little.


----------



## taibanl

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So, "True 4 Ohm" was the work of some group of marketers. The point is that a speaker with a 2.7 ohm coil looks like a 4 ohm speaker to the radio when it's connected using 20 feet of 20 gauge wire and after the coil gets hot and its impedance rises a bit. A 4 ohm speaker looks like a 5 or 5.2 ohm speaker under those same conditions. Does an ohm matter? A little.


Ok great thanks; hopefully it will serve the purpose of being more efficient powered by the MS-8, using it to test as an option for replacing my OEM rears. I had tried the OEM L7 drivers that I got used and they were indeed 3dB more efficient but they arrived damaged so now I'm going to try the 42.9i


----------



## duro78

Has anyone attempted to open the ms8 up and solder the input assembly? If so does it appear to be something the average diy'r could do? Or at the least something a qualified amp repair shop could do.from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## aviator79

OK got everything wired corectly now, but started setting up the Xover settins and have no idea what #s to put in. Sorry. I just dont get it. 
I will just go try some settings I guess.


----------



## thomasluke

aviator79 said:


> OK got everything wired corectly now, but started setting up the Xover settins and have no idea what #s to put in. Sorry. I just dont get it.
> I will just go try some settings I guess.


What drivers are you using?


----------



## ErinH

Andy, I just saw a HK commercial with Jennifer Lopez. Can you introduce us? 

lol!


----------



## bbfoto

Erin, I've worked with her on photo shoots. You don't want that drama, LOL!


----------



## ErinH

Gotta love the interesting occupations some here have.


----------



## subwoofery

aviator79 said:


> OK got everything wired corectly now, but started setting up the Xover settins and have no idea what #s to put in. Sorry. I just dont get it.
> I will just go try some settings I guess.


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-our-members/7160-basic-guide-crossovers.html 

Kelvin


----------



## duro78

(PLEASE) Has anyone figured out the cause of jet engine noise? yes it does it when the mic is in or out and this time it happened as soon as acoustic measurements was done.I highly doubt the mic has anything to do with it. This is the 3rd blown driver now. Really starting to have a love hate relationship with the ms8. Its just about cost me as much money as I paid for it. Its capable of things I could never do tuning wise but it in the same instance it also blows drivers like i never did also.


----------



## aviator79

thomasluke said:


> What drivers are you using?


Dynaudio 362 3-way so I have:

MW172 recommended frequency response is: 35-3500 Hz
MW142 recommended frequency response is: 700-600 Hz
MW102 recommended frequency response is: 2200-30000 Hz

So I says to set my subs at 20 Hz for the subsonic filter with a 12db/oct slope and the sub/front crossover as 80 Hz and 24db/oct slope. Im not sure on these

So then for the 3-way it asks:
Front Lo/Mid Xover
Front Lo/Mid Slope 
Front Mid/Hi Xover 
Front Mid/Hi Slope

So I assume the front to mid is the low pass for the low. and the mid high is the high pass for the hi. Where do you set the mid low and high pass? 

Im confused what to put here as a starting point as im a complete noob. I have read how crossovers work and understand the idea, but get more confused as it is not asking me/letting me set a bandbass crossover for the midrange. 

I am thinking I need to use a lower freq on the sub/front crossover than default as I would think this is will give me a lack of base to the midbase.

So I may go try this:

subsonic filter: 20 Hz with a 12db/oct slope 
sub/front crossover as 60 Hz and 24db/oct slope
Front Lo/Mid Xover: 2700 Hz
Front Lo/Mid Slope: 24db/oct slope
Front Mid/Hi Xover: 4000 Hz
Front Mid/Hi Slope: 24db/oct slope

I know these are wrong so any help would be appreciated. Sorry for asking to be spoon fed, but I am new to this.
Thanks


----------



## thomasluke

aviator79 said:


> Dynaudio 362 3-way so I have:
> 
> MW172 recommended frequency response is: 35-3500 Hz
> MW142 recommended frequency response is: 700-600 Hz
> MW102 recommended frequency response is: 2200-30000 Hz
> 
> So I says to set my subs at 20 Hz for the subsonic filter with a 12db/oct slope and the sub/front crossover as 80 Hz and 24db/oct slope. Im not sure on these
> 
> So then for the 3-way it asks:
> Front Lo/Mid Xover
> Front Lo/Mid Slope
> Front Mid/Hi Xover
> Front Mid/Hi Slope
> 
> So I assume the front to mid is the low pass for the low. and the mid high is the high pass for the hi. Where do you set the mid low and high pass?
> 
> Im confused what to put here as a starting point as im a complete noob. I have read how crossovers work and understand the idea, but get more confused as it is not asking me/letting me set a bandbass crossover for the midrange.
> 
> I am thinking I need to use a lower freq on the sub/front crossover than default as I would think this is will give me a lack of base to the midbase.
> 
> So I may go try this:
> 
> subsonic filter: 20 Hz with a 12db/oct slope
> sub/front crossover as 60 Hz and 24db/oct slope
> Front Lo/Mid Xover: 2700 Hz
> Front Lo/Mid Slope: 24db/oct slope
> Front Mid/Hi Xover: 4000 Hz
> Front Mid/Hi Slope: 24db/oct slope
> 
> I know these are wrong so any help would be appreciated. Sorry for asking to be spoon fed, but I am new to this.
> Thanks


Low/mid start with 400 and work your down untill the driver sounds stressed at high volume.
Mid/high start with 2500 and work your way up untill you like the sound.


----------



## taibanl

taibanl said:


> Ok great thanks; hopefully it will serve the purpose of being more efficient powered by the MS-8, using it to test as an option for replacing my OEM rears. I had tried the OEM L7 drivers that I got used and they were indeed 3dB more efficient but they arrived damaged so now I'm going to try the 42.9i


Ok so it worked. 2.7 ohm, 2 ohm, 4 ohm, whatever...they are 4dB more efficient than BMW's Base Stereo OEM Mids...and I get a tweeter!

FWIW, they did not RTA anywhere near flat. Looked like a roller coaster. My rainbow coax (center) was much flatter by comparison.

Thanks for your help Andreas


----------



## venkiee

Andy

I have finally installed the system as per config below. Kindly advise my questions.

Front (Hi) - Focal Tweeters
Front (Low) - Focal Front Door Spks
Side (Low) - Focal Coaxial
Woofer - in the boot

Amp - Custom designed 5 ch amp
Processor MS-8

Questions:-

1. Is it required to use the cross over which came with front component sets?
2. I connect 1, 2, 3 & 4 channels to amp and 5,6 direct from MS-8 to Side speakers on rear doors, Woofer to 5th channel of the amp


Please advice on the set-up and question no.1


----------



## naiku

Got mine installed last night. I love it. It definitely needs some tweaking, and a serious upgrade to my center channel (currently using the stock one that came with my car, it distorts at certain frequencies at higher volume). 

The install was fairly easy, one thing that I should have done is written down what output was assigned to what speaker. It says this in the manual, I figured I could remember. After 20 minutes of trying to figure out why the heck my sub was doing nothing, I realized I had told the MS8 it was on channel 6, when in fact it was on 7. 

I plan to run calibration again later today, I think I had the MS8 volume up too high. At the moment I am having to crank my head unit volume, and I would also like to lower the gains on my amps some. Listened to a bunch of stuff on the way to work though, and it sounded great on everything. AC/DC, Adele, Deadmau5 all sounded great, especially vocals coming right from the top center of the dash. I also listen to talk radio on the way to work usually, in the manual it says to attenuate the center channel when doing so, but, I simply turned off Logic 7 when listening to talk radio and it was fine.

At some point I may disconnect the rears and center, but only to do a more direct comparison to the PXE-H650 I used to have. But, overall I am really impressed with the MS8 and am sure that with some tweaking I can get it sounding even better.


----------



## Jachin99

Is it possible/would it be a good idea to bridge 2 of the channels on the ms-8 to power a 40 watt rms set of focal 4" mids, while having some focal tweeters hooked up two more channels? Ill be using these 4" mids for rear fill btw


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## utc_pyro

Question on the input stage to the MS-8 for Line-vs-speaker level with source EQ is not needed.

*Background:*
I modified my head unit to get a clean, non-eq'd line out in my Legacy (see: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/modifying-oem-head-unit-un-eq-d-line-out-129881.html). This line level signal is a bit low, and tends to have a loud pop at startup/shutdown. Thus I'm running that to a Cache CLOC+D that fixes those problems before shooting the signal to the MS-8 in back.

Unfortunately this creates a new problem: With the gain set as low as it goes on the CLOC+D line driver, the MS-8's input is overdriven and clipping.

This linedriver is rated at up to a 10Vrms max output, the MS-8 is 2.8v max on the line level and 15vrms max on the speaker level inputs. I do have an o-scope to check levels.

*Question:*
What configuration would produce the cleanest signal with the most dynamic range: 
a) Crank the gain up on the CLOC+D to right below clipping and feed it into the MS-8's speaker level inputs
b) Install a 6dB pad on the MS-8's RCA input, and set the gain on the line drive so a 0dB signal = 2.7vrms after the pad.


----------



## 14642

Well, I would have suggested making it easy on yoursef and just using the speaker outputs of the factory radio. then you don't need all of those gain stages with their noise, additional parts to get rid of pops, etc. You would have started with about a 6V balanced signal and a set of inputs designed specifically to accept those outputs with no chance of noise.


----------



## utc_pyro

This (18 op-amps), along with the rather agressive factory loudness curve, is why I did it  Or the EE geek factor...

The factory outputs can be re-enable if the "pre-amp" EQ is bypassed (connect signal from input caps on left to the output caps on the right) if you think it'd be better than the line driver. This is going to take a bit of work ether way.


----------



## thehatedguy

So is this more or less opamps than by shooting the signal through a LOC and stepped back down from the speaker level inputs?


----------



## Neil_J

utc_pyro said:


> This (18 op-amps), along with the rather agressive factory loudness curve, is why I did it  Or the EE geek factor...
> 
> The factory outputs can be re-enable if the "pre-amp" EQ is bypassed (connect signal from input caps on left to the output caps on the right) if you think it'd be better than the line driver. This is going to take a bit of work ether way.


Do it both ways (modded HU to preamp, 6db attenuated to ms8, and then unmodded to ms8 direct), and report back if you can hear a difference. My suspicion is that if EQ'd, and then in-EQ'd, you end up with an all-pass filter (phase delay / distortion)... The question is, can a trained ear hear the difference? Andy seems to say no, but I'd like to hear a few others confirm or deny it.


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## utc_pyro

Neil_J said:


> Do it both ways (modded HU to preamp, 6db attenuated to ms8, and then unmodded to ms8 direct), and report back if you can hear a difference.


As in leave the gob of EQ op-amps in and do this, or bypass them?

The rear channel can be set up to run the on-board amp san EQ, while leaving the front through the line-out mod or even speaker level with EQ for comparison. The path pre-amplifier will still have a little RC filter in it, but the Fc is 48,000hz, so it won't get in the way. It's just two little jumpers, removing a cap, and cutting a trace to do this so might as well try. A few aftermarket head units (Kenwood KDC-X579) have the same volume control and amplifier IC's directly connected, so it all shroud work.

This is the data sheet on the onboard amplifier. The line driver's THD is at least an order of magnitude better. Also judging by the frequency response, the MS-8's source EQ will be needed to fix the low and highs. 

thehatedguy, the line driver/LOC has 2 op-amps per channel. Modded radio @ speaker level would have the ones in amplifier chip, but no others past the volume control circuit (where the LO hack grabs it). 
Maybe one of the JBL guys could enlighten us on how many opamps the signal goes through in the MS-8 at speaker level -vs- line level.


* EDIT: *
Maybe I'm missing something here, but looking at this:

The high level input is just across a 120ohm load resistor (technically a PTC Thermistor or solid state circuit breaker with high normal impedance) and forums a voltage divider feeding into the same exact circuit as the line level. Thus the line level is already electrically isolated from ground, and set up for low level (6v p-p) balanced signals. Thus speaker level or line level makes no difference in sound quality or grounding as long as the signal is within range.

* EDIT2: *
Also running through the curcuit it looks like the max speaker level in is ~8.9vrms and line level is ~1.8Vrms to hit 3Vpp (0db) at the ADC, unless I'm missing something there as well. Simular with the output, going from DAC @ 0db to the output op-amp, calculations give ~1.83Vrms. This is about what the moded head unit puts out directally, but the MS-8 thinks the level is too low during de-eq. Component change in production compared to the service manual?


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## Neil_J

utc_pyro said:


> As in leave the gob of EQ op-amps in and do this, or bypass them?


Both... Do some critical listening with the MS-8 hooked to the MS8 before modification, and then do the same after the modification. What you should end up with is this:

Source -> factory gobs of Eq -> MS-8 un-eq
which should measure great on an RTA, but will likely have phase distortion (which may or may not be noticeable to a critical listener). Then, after the modification you proposed, would be:

Source -> factory gobs of Eq removed -> 6dB homemade attenuator -> MS-8 with un-eq step skipped
Which should measure closest to the original recording in relation to FR and phase. The question being, what qualitative differences were noticed? Although both would measure close to identical on an FR graph, does the phase difference make any audible difference?


----------



## utc_pyro

Neil_J said:


> Both...


Alright, I'm going to do it three ways just for giggles:

Front out (line level) w/o EQ
Front out (line level) w EQ
Rear our (speaker level) w/o EQ

1. to 2. will test how well the MS-8 can reconstruct a messed up signal.
1. to 3. will test how well the MS-8 does with the stock amp vs a line driver

Not sure what 3. will prove as the schematic shows it all goes to the same place, but it would cut out an additional box in the chain of signal. It's more of a test of a how a head unit amp chip does as a balanced line driver.


----------



## erlebo

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If any of you remember the Infinity Prelude MTS speaker (a home speaker), this is a really good example of one way to get flat response from super-stiff cones. That speaker uses a bunch of 5" woofers a 2-1/2" mid and a tweeter in a sort of expanded MTM arrrangement. The super stiff cones push the peak to high frequencies and the steep crossover slopes eliminate it from the response. The result is really flat response and near perfect directivity index for rooms, but it's expensive because the crossovers have many components, the cones are ridiculously expensive and the additional midrange is required. The marketers decided that we had to use those same cones in car audio drivers but no matter how we tried, we couldn't make it work very well for big 2-way speakers. That series of Kappa speakers didn't sound great and weren't big sellers--the marketers learned a lesson.



I still have a pair of Infinity Prelude MTS and love their sound.

I thought that I wouldn't go wrong with the Kappa Perfect 6.1 because it also has Ceramic Metal Matrix cones. I see that this series has been around for a few years. Is it the one you mean?


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## duro78

I've absolutely had with the ms8. Third unit and 3 speakers blown. Bad displays and airplane noise. 3rd driver didnt even have 30 minutes of play time. I think it blew one of my channels. This freaking thing has cost me more money than I spent on it. Would send jbl a bill but of course it will be blamed on user error. Anybody want an ms8 cheap? I'm sorry but this thing fails miserably in the quality deptment.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## t3sn4f2

I know when I get mine, I'll be working up some type of push button kill switch on the RCA outputs using audio grade relays. Assuming the amp doesn't kill the output immediately when the remote in power is cut. If it doesn't then I'll just put the switch to the remote out from the MS-8. And it not just the MS-8, I'd do this for any processor. If a driver is going to blow, its gonna be because of me and only me.


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## Salami

I have has it with my MS-8!! WTF????

I am on my SECOND unit and it still sounds great!! No issues with noise, or blown speakers. Super easy to set up. My system no longer sounds like **** like it did when I had no MS-8.



WTF Andy, why does my system sound so good????


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## duro78

t3sn4f2 said:


> I know when I get mine, I'll be working up some type of push button kill switch on the RCA outputs using audio grade relays. Assuming the amp doesn't kill the output immediately when the remote in power is cut. If it doesn't then I'll just put the switch to the remote out from the MS-8. And it not just the MS-8, I'd do this for any processor. If a driver is going to blow, its gonna be because of me and only me.


The sound comes out of no where. I have a z and my amps are right behind me so I pull the rca's out as soon as it happens. The same time it would take u to get to a switch is the same time it takes me to get to my RCA. It only takes a second of that extreme noise to blow the driver.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## duro78

Salami said:


> I have has it with my MS-8!! WTF????
> 
> I am on my SECOND unit and it still sounds great!! No issues with noise, or blown speakers. Super easy to set up. My system no longer sounds like **** like it did when I had no MS-8.
> 
> 
> 
> WTF Andy, why does my system sound so good????


In due time I said the same thing. I've had it for about two months and have not had two weeks of trouble free use. Its not user error because a lot of people have had the same exact issue. As someone said in another thread go skip the ms8 across a pond. I so annoyed with it, its one thing for a product not to work properly but it reaches a whole new plateau when it screws other things up in the chain. With replacing drivers alone I've paid double the cost of the ms8. Ripping this thing out.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## t3sn4f2

duro78 said:


> The sound comes out of no where. I have a z and my amps are right behind me so I pull the rca's out as soon as it happens. The same time it would take u to get to a switch is the same time it takes me to get to my RCA. It only takes a second of that extreme noise to blow the driver.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


So much for that solution.  Thanks for the info.


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## duro78

t3sn4f2 said:


> So much for that solution.  Thanks for the info.


It was a good idea lol don't get me wrong the ms8 does exactly what its supposed to do and does it well. When everything comes together its a beautiful thing but the bugs have completely turned me off from it. Ive had parts express on speed dial for the past 3 weeks.

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## BuickGN

I managed to kill the ignition before mine blew anything but there was a smell of burning electronics. It seemed to be coming from my cheap center speaker luckily. It took about 2 seconds to kill the sound after I hit the ignition.


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## duro78

BuickGN said:


> I managed to kill the ignition before mine blew anything but there was a smell of burning electronics. It seemed to be coming from my cheap center speaker luckily. It took about 2 seconds to kill the sound after I hit the ignition.


As you mentioned in my other thread if I had esotars I don't know what I'd do. There was another guy on ghe forum that wasnt so lucky and those were esotars. I definitely felt his pain. Although my raw drivers aren't that expensive its adding up, I'm just glad I didn't go high end like I had planned.

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## pionkej

Can you guys think of any common circumstance of why this would be happening? I've had my MS8(s) for a while and have not had one issue like this out of them.

Duro78-

Do you not think that there is SOMETHING you are doing or having going on in your setup that is causing this? It was originally suggested by JBL/Andy that the mic could have been the cause because it does strange things when left plugged it (and most the people who were having the issue at the time WERE leaving it plugged in) and it may well still be one of the causes. In your case, you have had three units and all three had the same issue. I personally have two units, and Salami has had two in the same car (sold his first one to me ) and neither of us have had an issue.

It also seems that people who have had the problem, continue to have it even if they exchange the units. What that says, to me, is that it isn't an internal problem with the MS8 itself, but an external factor(s) that affects the MS8 and causes the noise.


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## subwoofery

pionkej said:


> Can you guys think of any common circumstance of why this would be happening? I've had my MS8(s) for a while and have not had one issue like this out of them.
> 
> Duro78-
> 
> Do you not think that there is SOMETHING you are doing or having going on in your setup that is causing this? It was originally suggested by JBL/Andy that the mic could have been the cause because it does strange things when left plugged it (and most the people who were having the issue at the time WERE leaving it plugged in) and it may well still be one of the causes. In your case, you have had three units and all three had the same issue. I personally have two units, and Salami has had two in the same car (sold his first one to me ) and neither of us have had an issue.
> 
> It also seems that people who have had the problem, continue to have it even if they exchange the units. What that says, to me, is that it isn't an internal problem with the MS8 itself, *but an external factor(s) that affects the MS8 and causes the noise.*


Totally agree... Unfortunately, we don't know what that is yet... 

I think JBL is trying to replicate the jet engine noise in their facilities  

Kelvin


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## pionkej

subwoofery said:


> Totally agree... Unfortunately, we don't know what that is yet...
> 
> I think JBL is trying to replicate the jet engine noise in their facilities
> 
> Kelvin


Maybe we could help and start a different thread and try and track it down. I have heard of only a handful of instances here, but maybe people will start chiming in. Problem is, where do you start?

Mic plugged in or unplugged?
Randomly or shortly after tuning (if after, approximately how long)?
Driving or stationary (if stationary, car on or aux power)?
OEM or aftermarket head unit?

I don't know...I suppose it's best to leave to Andy/JBL. I just hate that it's happening sometimes, both for JBL and the users.


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## Se7en

The only common issue that I've seen and I cannot say that it is common to all, is that these were systems using multiple batteries, although I don't know if these batteries were being isolated or run in series, parallel, etc.

In my case, I had batteries with a PAC isolator maintaining one battery for the system and one for the car. I now have a single battery, nothing fancy and have had no problems since, and have done maybe 100-150 calibrations since the change.

In all cases where I did experience the problem, it was after calibration, after removing the mic, and after turning the car on to keep a charge going to the batteries. In my case, the problem has always happened within a few seconds after vehicle turn on.

What I suspect happened is that during calibration (typically multiple tries per sitting), the system battery had been run waay down, and when the isolator switched to both batteries being in line, or a combination of that and the car starting, the MS was hit with a significant spike in voltage.

What this doesn't explain is how this is happening to people who are driving and in theory should be sending consistent voltage to their systems. 

So far, duro78, BuickGN and BigRed have all suggested that they had the problem, at seeming random, and while driving. Correct me if I've misspoken or misrepresented here.

Edit: Random = BigRed switching between seating positions, BGN abruptly hitting his brakes at speed, Duro driving around the block after calibration..


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## duro78

Sorry I didn't specify. The first unit I bought the display just stop working the plug in wire was under no stress, second unit. I sent back due to the noise and this is the third one. So its two units that suffered from the noise. I lost 1 driver with the second unit and the other two drivers with the 3rd. Honestly your explanation sounds a little more plausable than the mic explanation. The last two times it happened I think calibration was done then I drove the car right after. The first time it happened immediately after calibration when the unit switched over to the head unit signal but that time I didn't start the car. Most of the time I do my calibrations sitting in the car but I watch my volt meter and stop way before it gets to 12. Wouldn't the voltage spike cause an effect shortly after the volts are raised when the car is started? I can understand if it was just my setup then I would be the first to except blame but for so many users the ms8 must have a voltage problem. I know amps are different but I've used 6 different amps with my current electrical setup and never had an issue. I periodically check the volts( f&r) at rest and at idle with a dimm and it always reads good. It seemsby a minimal spike like pressing the brake or reaching a certain rpm (guessing more amps to electrical system). I don't know 

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## utc_pyro

Have you guys checked the volume level on the MS-8 upon jet engine/speaker blowing happening?

I had an issue on mine a while ago where the MS-8 volume got set to "FF", and actually amplifying the signal like crazy. Happened due to ether a) battery dying in the remote, or b) random buttons being pushed on the remote while it was in the center console. Anything about 1 or 2 on my head unit would clip the eff out of the output when that happened, creating a jet like noise.


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## duro78

utc_pyro said:


> Have you guys checked the volume level on the MS-8 upon jet engine/speaker blowing happening?
> 
> I had an issue on mine a while ago where the MS-8 volume got set to "FF", and actually amplifying the signal like crazy. Happened due to ether a) battery dying in the remote, or b) random buttons being pushed on the remote while it was in the center console. Anything about 1 or 2 on my head unit would clip the eff out of the output when that happened, creating a jet like noise.


I always done calibration in the 25 to 30 range and once done lower it to 6 or lower once amp gains are set. The remote is hit or miss so I can never tell if the battery is going dead. Somedays its works inches away and others I have to pretty much try every angle an inch from it. Like you mentioned about accidentally holding down the button I can always hear the slight clicking from the speakers and if your looking at the display ill notice slight blinking after each press of the button. Since my remote barely works at 5 inches away from the display I'd have to purposely cause a situation of continued button pressing. With he 3 units I've had no remote worked more than six inches from the display. Could be me but that kind of defeats the purpose of having a wireless remote IMO. I still haven't mounted my display because of this, its like having a wired remote that needs a remote if that makes sense.

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## Se7en

utc_pyro said:


> Have you guys checked the volume level on the MS-8 upon jet engine/speaker blowing happening?
> 
> I had an issue on mine a while ago where the MS-8 volume got set to "FF", and actually amplifying the signal like crazy. Happened due to ether a) battery dying in the remote, or b) random buttons being pushed on the remote while it was in the center console. Anything about 1 or 2 on my head unit would clip the eff out of the output when that happened, creating a jet like noise.


Yes, it's always happened very quickly on mine. My HU volume has been at zero/full off and the MS8 at -45. The noise that the MS pushes through is FULL TILT and insensitive to muting or other volume adjustments. 

It's simply a matter of getting to the fuses before you smell smoke.


----------



## bassfromspace

Se7en said:


> The only common issue that I've seen and I cannot say that it is common to all, is that these were systems using multiple batteries, although I don't know if these batteries were being isolated or run in series, parallel, etc.
> 
> In my case, I had batteries with a PAC isolator maintaining one battery for the system and one for the car. I now have a single battery, nothing fancy and have had no problems since, and have done maybe 100-150 calibrations since the change.
> 
> In all cases where I did experience the problem, it was after calibration, after removing the mic, and after turning the car on to keep a charge going to the batteries. In my case, the problem has always happened within a few seconds after vehicle turn on.
> 
> What I suspect happened is that during calibration (typically multiple tries per sitting), the system battery had been run waay down, and when the isolator switched to both batteries being in line, or a combination of that and the car starting, the MS was hit with a significant spike in voltage.
> 
> What this doesn't explain is how this is happening to people who are driving and in theory should be sending consistent voltage to their systems.
> 
> So far, duro78, BuickGN and BigRed have all suggested that they had the problem, at seeming random, and while driving. Correct me if I've misspoken or misrepresented here.
> 
> Edit: Random = BigRed switching between seating positions, BGN abruptly hitting his brakes at speed, Duro driving around the block after calibration..


I had the 747 experience while driving. Blew a Dayton RS-180.


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## bassfromspace

Se7en said:


> The only common issue that I've seen and I cannot say that it is common to all, is that these were systems using multiple batteries, although I don't know if these batteries were being isolated or run in series, parallel, etc.
> 
> In my case, I had batteries with a PAC isolator maintaining one battery for the system and one for the car. I now have a single battery, nothing fancy and have had no problems since, and have done maybe 100-150 calibrations since the change.
> 
> In all cases where I did experience the problem, it was after calibration, after removing the mic, and after turning the car on to keep a charge going to the batteries. In my case, the problem has always happened within a few seconds after vehicle turn on.
> 
> What I suspect happened is that during calibration (typically multiple tries per sitting), the system battery had been run waay down, and when the isolator switched to both batteries being in line, or a combination of that and the car starting, the MS was hit with a significant spike in voltage.
> 
> What this doesn't explain is how this is happening to people who are driving and in theory should be sending consistent voltage to their systems.
> 
> So far, duro78, BuickGN and BigRed have all suggested that they had the problem, at seeming random, and while driving. Correct me if I've misspoken or misrepresented here.
> 
> Edit: Random = BigRed switching between seating positions, BGN abruptly hitting his brakes at speed, Duro driving around the block after calibration..


I had the 747 experience while driving. Blew a Dayton RS-180.


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## alachua

I had it while stationary, mic plugged in and navigating the menu to calibrate. I had changed from 'driver' to 'passenger' on the position selector which caused it. The car was turned to ACC. Noise seemed to come only through the right side, which is where I lost $50 worth of Vifa XT25. After I shut down and powered up again, it still had noise, i have been meaning to do a 'reset to default' and re-calibrate, but I am hesitant to risk more drivers and I'm not sure if JBL will repair/replace since I think I fell out of warranty in the past few weeks.


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## Se7en

bassfromspace said:


> I had the 747 experience while driving. Blew a Dayton RS-180.


I lost an Esotar 110, an Esotar 430 and Esotar 1200. It would be nice to be able to identify a source of the problem so that JBL can implement a fix.


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## rugdnit

I get the 747 and weird high frequency popping noises through my sub channel. It's consistent and no matter what I do I cannot get rid of it. So frustrated.


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## Se7en

rugdnit said:


> I get the 747 and weird high frequency popping noises through my sub channel. It's consistent and no matter what I do I cannot get rid of it. So frustrated.


Are you running a single or multiple batteries?


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## BigRed

alachua said:


> I had it while stationary, mic plugged in and navigating the menu to calibrate. I had changed from 'driver' to 'passenger' on the position selector which caused it. The car was turned to ACC. Noise seemed to come only through the right side, which is where I lost $50 worth of Vifa XT25. After I shut down and powered up again, it still had noise, i have been meaning to do a 'reset to default' and re-calibrate, but I am hesitant to risk more drivers and I'm not sure if JBL will repair/replace since I think I fell out of warranty in the past few weeks.


Sounds familiar. Oh so familiar


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## BuickGN

utc_pyro said:


> Have you guys checked the volume level on the MS-8 upon jet engine/speaker blowing happening?
> 
> I had an issue on mine a while ago where the MS-8 volume got set to "FF", and actually amplifying the signal like crazy. Happened due to ether a) battery dying in the remote, or b) random buttons being pushed on the remote while it was in the center console. Anything about 1 or 2 on my head unit would clip the eff out of the output when that happened, creating a jet like noise.


Good suggestions, it would be very nice to find a common cause. 

Just to throw a little more info about mine out there and I'm probably repeating myself somewhere lol... My HU was off when it happened. I can't remember the exact volume level but it's usually -10 to -15 because I control it with the HU. My remote works from far away and many times I've had stuff roll over on it or even have it fall between the seats and start hitting buttons without a line of sight. Maybe there's a combo of buttons that gets pushed that can trigger this.

What does "FF" stand for?



Se7en said:


> I lost an Esotar 110, an Esotar 430 and Esotar 1200. It would be nice to be able to identify a source of the problem so that JBL can implement a fix.


That's crazy, that's over 5k worth of speakers. I would lose it if that happened to me. I can understand the tweeters, maybe the 430s, but I can't believe it blew the 1200 sub. What has to happen to destroy a sub in such a short time. How long approximately did it take to get it shut off when it blew the sub and how much power is your amp capable of? I'm just wondering if you have enough power to hurt that sub or if it was the type of signal it was fed. Thermal or mechanical?


----------



## Se7en

BuickGN said:


> That's crazy, that's over 5k worth of speakers. I would lose it if that happened to me. I can understand the tweeters, maybe the 430s, but I can't believe it blew the 1200 sub. What has to happen to destroy a sub in such a short time. How long approximately did it take to get it shut off when it blew the sub and how much power is your amp capable of? I'm just wondering if you have enough power to hurt that sub or if it was the type of signal it was fed. Thermal or mechanical?


Apologies, I should have been a bit more clear. The 110 & 430 were casualties of the jet noise. This I suspect, may be due to a low battery or jump in voltage condition. This does not in my mind excuse the the jet noise.

The sub was the casualty of a very loud, repeating, system pop/thump, which occurred when I opened the door to my car. This was basically my accessory system coming on, and effectively turning the MS8 on, and then my amps, and so on... The popping was only interrupted by me turning my key to accessory mode (bringing the second battery inline). This leads me to believe, that this was not the MS8 acting badly on its own, but more likely ab-reacting to a low battery or voltage condition.

You're right though, it was a costly hit, and the E1200 was ultimately more than I could afford to replace. 

Sorry for any confusion from my earlier post.


----------



## duro78

Se7en said:


> Apologies, I should have been a bit more clear. The 110 & 430 were casualties of the jet noise. This I suspect, may be due to a low battery or jump in voltage condition. This does not in my mind excuse the the jet noise. The reason for me adding the second battery isn't in the equation anymore which was 2k watt amp. If I remember correctly this is when this all started happening, after I put in the p900.4.
> 
> The sub was the casualty of a very loud, repeating, system pop/thump, which occurred when I opened the door to my car. This was basically my accessory system coming on, and effectively turning the MS8 on, and then my amps, and so on... The popping was only interrupted by me turning my key to accessory mode (bringing the second battery inline). This leads me to believe, that this was not the MS8 acting badly on its own, but more likely ab-reacting to a low battery or voltage condition.
> 
> You're right though, it was a costly hit, and the E1200 was ultimately more than I could afford to replace.
> 
> Sorry for any confusion from my earlier post.


You mentioned you use an isolator but I don't so my batteries are uninterrupted in series. I've added a voltmeter (hundredths) by my distro blocks close to the amps and its always in range. I'm no electricity expert but it always reads normal at idle and at rest.

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## duro78

bassfromspace said:


> I had the 747 experience while driving. Blew a Dayton RS-180.


Damn and I thought my mids and rs180 would be safe once I protected my tweets.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## duro78

Is anyone experiencing any type of amp damage? This last time it blew out the channel I had on the tweet it blew 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Se7en

duro78 said:


> Is anyone experiencing any type of amp damage? This last time it blew out the channel I had on the tweet it blew
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


I've heard that a forum member, lost multiple amps, due to jet noise.

I heard this 2nd hand, so I want to get my facts straight before I say any more about it.


----------



## duro78

Se7en said:


> I've heard that a forum member, lost multiple amps, due to jet noise.
> 
> I heard this 2nd hand, so I want to get my facts straight before I say any more about it.


I stand corrected the ms8 only damaged the driver not the amp channel. That's completely my fault. 

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## duro78

SE7EN I replaced the tweets with an old set of 100w cadences I had laying around. I was able to recreate the noise and was able to kill the ignition before damaging anything. Here's the kicker, if I start the car and immediately kill the radio and turn it back on the noise starts where it left off. If I shut the car off and just turn ignition to acc the noise starts up again. So in both ssituations I started the ms8 at two different volts and still got the noise.

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## duro78

It appears its not the drastic noise level that's damaging the speakers. I caught it right when the low pitch feedback sound occurs before the airplane noise kicks in and now both the drivers side tweet I put in is blown. It seems its a surge of current that's blowing them not the severe noise.

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## duro78

I caught the noise before it started by killing the ignition and still killed the drivers side tweet. It seems to be the power surge that's killing them not the extreme noise.

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## duro78

I have a hunch jbl knows exactly what's causing this but due to the fact its damaging customers equipment their not gonna admit fault due to liability issues. They're just waiting it out to see what actions to take. That's where the BS mic excuse came from so they can buy time and also place blame on the user without involving fault on the actual unit. Acknowledging a faulty design would be very costly from a business standpoint. This is my guess and just my opinion

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## rugdnit

Se7en said:


> Are you running a single or multiple batteries?


Just one battery. The noise only comes through the sub channel though. I tried running the #8 channel through my midbass and the noise showed up there as well.


----------



## Neil_J

My whole system is getting a console-mounted kill switch wired in series with the +12v remote signal to the ms8. Jet engine noise or otherwise, I won't be too worried as it will only have a 1/2 second or so of damage before I remove power.


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## Hdale85

What jet engine noise are you guys talking about?


----------



## Hdale85

Ok read back a few pages......you guys are freaking me out here with this Jet Engine thing. I just got my new MS-8 and haven't installed any of my system yet but now I'm having second thoughts.


----------



## Hdale85

Has anyone had the airplane noise that was using just their main battery and no second battery?


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## Se7en

Hdale85 said:


> Ok read back a few pages......you guys are freaking me out here with this Jet Engine thing. I just got my new MS-8 and haven't installed any of my system yet but now I'm having second thoughts.


The MS8 is an excellent processor, you shouldn't run away from it.

There are some issues with it, some potentially serious, like the one being discussed. Keep also in mind, that the people bringing this up are a relatively small group, especially when you consider the number of units sold. We're basically collecting notes to see if we can identify repeatable steps to create the condition. Up to date Andy (JBL) has been incredibly responsive to questions or issues regarding this product, absolutely second to none in my opinion. I can only assume that if JBL could reproduce this issue reliably, they would work towards a fix.

There are a number of easy counter measures that can be taken to mitigate risk of damaged equipment. 

1. Integrate a kill switch in the event of something nasty happening. Not a bad idea with any equipment.

2. Put a fuse or cap inline to your more sensitive speakers, like mids and tweets. This is good practice regardless.

3. Until its ruled out, run a stereo 3.5mm extension cord to plug your mic into. Going into your trunk or wherever to unplug the mic, every time you calibrate and then give a listen is a major PIA. Again, until it's ruled out, you SHOULD unplug your mic EVERY TIME after calibration and before listening to the system.

4. There may be an issue with system or battery voltage that exacerbates the situation. Make sure that you have a decent charge before tuning.


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## Hdale85

Hmm, I just can't afford to replace drivers like some of you have had to do lol.


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## Se7en

Hdale85 said:


> Hmm, I just can't afford to replace drivers like some of you have had to do lol.


None of us can afford it  we tend to buy what we think we can afford... Once.

A kill switch would have saved my drivers. I believe not having a bad battery would have saved my sub.


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## thehatedguy

I haven't had any sort of noise like as described...had my MS-8 for a long time.


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## t3sn4f2

Neil_J said:


> My whole system is getting *a console-mounted kill switch* wired in series with the +12v remote signal to the ms8. Jet engine noise or otherwise, I won't be too worried as it will only have a 1/2 second or so of damage before I remove power.


A big ol fat push to break kind.


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## Neil_J

I have a theory and may try to recreate the problem on my bench with a variable power supply and a handful of Tang Band 3" midranges. It could have something to do with the input voltage going below about 9.5 volts for a short amount of time (I'll try different combinations of voltage drops before,during,and after acoustic calibration). Scientific method and crowd-sourcing ftw 

It would be nice to have the following pieces of information from the people that have had the jet engine noise problem, and have a DMM handy (taken at the MS-8 +12V input):


Voltage when the car is running?
Voltage when the key is in the accessory position?
Voltage after 10-15 minutes of running the amps with the key in the accessory position?


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## Hdale85

But what about people that have had the issue while driving? I could see possibly if it's a dual battery setup which is why I asked if anyone that had a single battery had this issue? Either way it seems quite a few people have had the issue with the car running and even driving.


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## CraigE

thehatedguy said:


> I haven't had any sort of noise like as described...had my MS-8 for a long time.


Same here.


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## alachua

Hdale85 said:


> Has anyone had the airplane noise that was using just their main battery and no second battery?


Yup. My car runs a single Optima red top. 

Just an FYI. I believe there has been concern regarding even having an extender plugged into the mic channel. I think it was discussed in this thread, but I'm not sure. 

As an aside, this thread is reaching the point that it needs its own indexing and tagging system to be usable. I searched 'BMW' to see what the preferred setup is on the factory system: this yields something like 5 full pages of results.


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## duro78

Se7en said:


> None of us can afford it  we tend to buy what we think we can afford... Once.
> 
> A kill switch would have saved my drivers. I believe not having a bad battery would have saved my sub.


I kill switch won't work, as soon as it started to happen before the swooshing sound started I turned the ignition completely off and it still blew my tweeter. Its a power surge not the actual loud noise killing the speaker

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## BuickGN

Se7en said:


> None of us can afford it  we tend to buy what we think we can afford... Once.
> 
> A kill switch would have saved my drivers. I believe not having a bad battery would have saved my sub.


Exactly. If it kills my Esotars, I'm throwing the stock speakers back in and getting out of this hobby. Once is ok but I can't justify that kind of money a second time to my GF or to myself.


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## duro78

Neil_J said:


> My whole system is getting a console-mounted kill switch wired in series with the +12v remote signal to the ms8. Jet engine noise or otherwise, I won't be too worried as it will only have a 1/2 second or so of damage before I remove power.


Like I mentioned above the second I realized it was about to happen I killed the ignition before the noise even started and it killed the tweeter. So a kill switch won't work. It seems to be a power surge not the noise that's causing but the noise does come after. Before the airplane noise starts there a low volume feedback noise and that's when I killed power and still dead tweeter.

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## Neil_J

duro78 said:


> Like I mentioned above the second I realized it was about to happen I killed the ignition before the noise even started and it killed the tweeter. So a kill switch won't work. It seems to be a power surge not the noise that's causing but the noise does come after. Before the airplane noise starts there a low volume feedback noise and that's when I killed power and still dead tweeter.


Hmm.. I haven't experienced the problem myself, so my above theory/theories may be off a bit since I'm extrapolating off of bits and pieces.

I'm going to sit back a bit and collect a few more facts, but I don't see why I couldn't recreate it on my bench, if I have enough information to work with.


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## duro78

BuickGN said:


> Exactly. If it kills my Esotars, I'm throwing the stock speakers back in and getting out of this hobby. Once is ok but I can't justify that kind of money a second time to my GF or to myself.


That's funny because I parked the car in disgust, luckily its not my daily driver. My first unit never did this and Im doing everything the exact same way. That unit failed due to the glued input. 

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## taibanl

Neil_J said:


> I have a theory and may try to recreate the problem on my bench with a variable power supply and a handful of Tang Band 3" midranges. It could have something to do with the input voltage going below about 9.5 volts for a short amount of time (I'll try different combinations of voltage drops before,during,and after acoustic calibration). Scientific method and crowd-sourcing ftw
> 
> It would be nice to have the following pieces of information from the people that have had the jet engine noise problem, and have a DMM handy (taken at the MS-8 +12V input):
> 
> 
> Voltage when the car is running?
> Voltage when the key is in the accessory position?
> Voltage after 10-15 minutes of running the amps with the key in the accessory position?




Sorry no voltage info, but I can tell you my vehicle's electrical system will measure well greater than 12v even after a long calibration session.

I've posted before, my occurrence with the jet engine noise happened
POST calibration
MIC plugged in
I was exiting my vehicle to go to the trunk and unplug the mic, *when i opened the door (and the vehicle door 'gong' came on), it started*, it quickly became a positive feedback loop until I could get the car off. I was lucky, no drivers blew.


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## duro78

Neil_J said:


> Hmm.. I haven't experienced the problem myself, so my above theory/theories may be off a bit since I'm extrapolating off of bits and pieces.
> 
> I'm going to sit back a bit and collect a few more facts, but I don't see why I couldn't recreate it on my bench, if I have enough information to work with.


I bet you could with my unit. At rest between 12.6 to 12.05 is my range of doing anything with the car off. With the car on my volts are in the neighborhood of 14.5. I'm starting to think this is unit based because like I said it never happened with my first one. That one failed because of the display. I'm noticing its happening more often with this one. As far as I know the conditions are the same.

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## duro78

No offense to Andy but I think jbl knows exactly what's going on. From a business and liabilty standpoint they're staying out of this till they figure out what to do. Unfortunately I put a lot of time effort and money into my current setup and the ms8 is my only option to keep it running but I refuse to waste anymore money. I wish I could rip it out and send it back to jbl accompanied with a bill. No offense to Andy of course but I'm in the hole almost $1k with the ms8 and blown drivers and there's no end in sight.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Neil_J

I'm sure it has been mentioned many times but I'm too busy at the moment to go back and look... Has anyone had the jet engine noise with the mic unplugged?


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## taibanl

duro78 said:


> No offense to Andy but I think jbl knows exactly what's going on. From a business and liabilty standpoint they're staying out of this till they figure out what to do. Unfortunately I put a lot of time effort and money into my current setup and the ms8 is my only option to keep it running but I refuse to waste anymore money. I wish I could rip it out and send it back to jbl accompanied with a bill. No offense to Andy of course but I'm in the hole almost $1k with the ms8 and blown drivers and there's no end in sight.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


I hope that's not the case. Willful ignorance of a known problem could open up any potential liability to punitive damages.

I'm quite surprised this issue hasn't been fixed as it seems that liability for damaged equipment and more importantly personal injury (best case, hearing damage, worst case a car accident) is quite easily established. Products liability generally falls under the doctrine of strict liability, which means that you only have to prove the product is defective, not that any negligence took place.


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## duro78

taibanl said:


> I hope that's not the case. Willful ignorance of a known problem could open up any potential liability to punitive damages.
> 
> I'm quite surprised this issue hasn't been fixed as it seems that liability for damaged equipment and more importantly personal injury (best case, hearing damage, worst case a car accident) is quite easily established. Products liability generally falls under the doctrine of strict liability, which means that you only have to prove the product is defective, not that any negligence took place.


That's exactly why I came to this conclusion. Although we haven't pinpointed the cause this issue is beyond a few hiccups from a new product its actually costing consumers a lot of money not to mention what you stated above.

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## duro78

Neil_J said:


> I'm sure it has been mentioned many times but I'm too busy at the moment to go back and look... Has anyone had the jet engine noise with the mic unplugged?


Yes it has, it happened to me once with the mic unplugged and it happened to several others unplugged also. IMO it was a ploy to direct the blame on the user but who knows. I have a strong feeling we're on our own with this one.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## BuickGN

Neil_J said:


> I'm sure it has been mentioned many times but I'm too busy at the moment to go back and look... Has anyone had the jet engine noise with the mic unplugged?


I have. Mine has done it only once. Driving on a long trip.

I've never checked battery voltage but my Optima has been weak for years, just replaced it. I've run it low enough during calibration that the car would not start and many times it barely turned over yet the only time it's happened was while driving. 

When it happened to me I shut the key off as quick as possible and pulled over. With a burning smell in the car, I popped the trunk to make sure nothing was on fire or smoking. I checked the fuse distribution block expecting to find a blown fuse to one of the components but fuses were fine. I use a main fuse and a fuse for each component of the minimum specified by the manufacturer. Started the car back up and it's been fine since. 

I can't remember if my subs were involved but I want to say they shut off during this episode. Maybe the amp went into protect, I have no idea. I think I had the McIntosh on the highs at the time. I kind of wish I had the radio on when it happened.

I would put more weight on the facts from others besides myself since mine seems to be a bit more rare. Has anyone else had the burning smell inside of the car?


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## BuickGN

taibanl said:


> I hope that's not the case. Willful ignorance of a known problem could open up any potential liability to punitive damages.
> 
> I'm quite surprised this issue hasn't been fixed as it seems that liability for damaged equipment and more importantly personal injury (best case, hearing damage, worst case a car accident) is quite easily established. Products liability generally falls under the doctrine of strict liability, which means that you only have to prove the product is defective, not that any negligence took place.


Personal injury is a possibility. When this noise happened to me, I wasn't sure to cover my ears, kill the ignition, or jump out of the car. It definitely startles you. Luckily I was concentrating hard on driving at the moment, not making my usual half asleep drive home in rush hour. Someone like my GF who gets scared over anything would probably have wrecked into the nearest pole lol.


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## duro78

I've yet to encounter the burning smell but I guess that's because only my tweets are blowing (smaller VC). They did have that smell when I put my nose up to it but nothing as distinct as filling the cabin.

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## duro78

BuickGN said:


> Personal injury is a possibility. When this noise happened to me, I wasn't sure to cover my ears, kill the ignition, or jump out of the car. It definitely startles you. Luckily I was concentrating hard on driving at the moment, not making my usual half asleep drive home in rush hour. Someone like my GF who gets scared over anything would probably have wrecked into the nearest pole lol.


That's funny because before it happened to me I wondered if I experienced it before. When it did happen it definitely was a holy **** moment lol I could imagine what would happen to a person under just the certain driving conditions. Your absolutely right if it happened to an unexpecting person I'd hate to see what happens. I just thought about this what about the wife's and gf's that drive our cars what if this does happen under driving conditions. Oh wow, you just further made me a believer in my theory of jbl knowing what's going on. This should really be made public, what if an elderly person drives your car or something?

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## duro78

Ms8 owners should really be made aware of this. What if your wife or elderly parents drive your vehicle and this noise happens while driving? The results can be tragic. 

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## BigRed

That's why I got rid of mine. If my wife drove while it did that it would not be good. after my third unit and the final answer from jbl being "just reset the unit" and "we can't duplicate it on our test bench" I moved on. It really did it to me a lot when I would switch seat positions thru the ms8


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## 14642

duro78 said:


> No offense to Andy but I think jbl knows exactly what's going on. From a business and liabilty standpoint they're staying out of this till they figure out what to do. Unfortunately I put a lot of time effort and money into my current setup and the ms8 is my only option to keep it running but I refuse to waste anymore money. I wish I could rip it out and send it back to jbl accompanied with a bill. No offense to Andy of course but I'm in the hole almost $1k with the ms8 and blown drivers and there's no end in sight.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


No offense taken. Please check your PM.


----------



## 14642

Guys, I'm completely aware of this and am trying to figure out why it happens. So far, I have not been able to reproduce it. That doesn't mean that it isn't happening to you, though.

With any software-based product, there are so many configurations that it's difficult to find the one that causes this. First, I have to make a unit do this. Then, I have to make a unit do this again under the same conditions. I'm trying.


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## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Guys, I'm completely aware of this and am trying to figure out why it happens. So far, I have not been able to reproduce it. That doesn't mean that it isn't happening to you, though.
> 
> With any software-based product, there are so many configurations that it's difficult to find the one that causes this. First, I have to make a unit do this. Then, I have to make a unit do this again under the same conditions. I'm trying.


I'm sure you've looked into this, but I'll mention it anyways, you never know. But maybe you can trade one that you have there that just won't do it, for one from someone on here that it happens to regularly.


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## duro78

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Guys, I'm completely aware of this and am trying to figure out why it happens. So far, I have not been able to reproduce it. That doesn't mean that it isn't happening to you, though.
> 
> With any software-based product, there are so many configurations that it's difficult to find the one that causes this. First, I have to make a unit do this. Then, I have to make a unit do this again under the same conditions. I'm trying.


Ill send you mine

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## Hdale85

How about is anyone close enough that has the issue that can just go over and show it?


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## duro78

Hdale85 said:


> How about is anyone close enough that has the issue that can just go over and show it?


Andy reached out to me and I'm actually gonna send my unit in for testing. Wheels are in motion. Hopefully the sound can be recreated and it can be sorted out. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## duro78

Hdale85 said:


> How about is anyone close enough that has the issue that can just go over and show it?


Repost


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## BigRed

duro78 said:


> Andy reached out to me and I'm actually gonna send my unit in for testing. Wheels are in motion. Hopefully the sound can be recreated and it can be sorted out.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Good luck


----------



## alachua

My unit is unmodified since it last did it, configuration/reset wise. This includes a now persistent noise on multiple channels. If the capability exists, and it would be helpful, I'd be glad to provide a software/configuration dump file.


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## jhnkvn

I remember somebody posting here that throwing the MS8 a center channel turns it into a different monster. Now that had me thinking since I can't really get the soundstage I want -- center image is not as focused as I want to, width's pretty normal although I have a hunch I've got the rainbow effect right now but depth's pretty good. 

After hearing a bunch of MS8s, I think my setup's pretty good.. but I really still want to get the most out of it. So, center channel or not?  Anybody can attest how different the MS8 is with a center?


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## thehatedguy

Andy if one was using the GTi waveguide for a center channel, would you want the "long" side pointing to the front and back of the car, or would you want it pointing towards the sides of the car?


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## duro78

Anyone having airplane noise please refer the thread below. Im trying to compile the info for Andy to see the similarities between setups. It seems he's getting a handle on it.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/124001-anyone-ms8-experiencing-airplane-noise-please-read.html


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## 14642

thehatedguy said:


> Andy if one was using the GTi waveguide for a center channel, would you want the "long" side pointing to the front and back of the car, or would you want it pointing towards the sides of the car?


The actual waveguide is circular but the plate is oblong. Rotation doesn't matter.


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## duro78

Andy or anyone else, is there a reason why I'm getting a considerably more output out of my drivers side mid bass. Its almost at full excursion while the passenger side one is at about 25%. Heavy bass songs the drivers side bottoms out while the other one is playing normal.


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## Se7en

duro78 said:


> Andy or anyone else, is there a reason why I'm getting a considerably more output out of my drivers side mid bass. Its almost at full excursion while the passenger side one is at about 25%. Heavy bass songs the drivers side bottoms out while the other one is playing normal.


If you can, make sure your gains are leveled for system balance (gain down to avoid clipping) as much as possible, particularly between your midbass. If you defeat processing, you'll be able to tell quickly. If they're not, try to balance them, and the other channels if they're way off. This can be approximate, not exact. Also, make sure that your sub isn't overwhelming the rest of the system.

Also, when you recalibrate, as opposed to looking at the mirrors exactly, try centering your mic either at your midbass or between your mids and midbass. Remember, this is all ITD at these frequencies.

This is what works for me.


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## thehatedguy

Sweet, so I could mount one in the top of the door with the long ends vertical and no differences with them being horizontal?

If that is the case...NICE!



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The actual waveguide is circular but the plate is oblong. Rotation doesn't matter.


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## taibanl

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Guys, I'm completely aware of this and am trying to figure out why it happens. So far, I have not been able to reproduce it. That doesn't mean that it isn't happening to you, though.
> 
> With any software-based product, there are so many configurations that it's difficult to find the one that causes this. First, I have to make a unit do this. Then, I have to make a unit do this again under the same conditions. I'm trying.


 I figured this might be the case. I am far from an engineer but if you cant reproduce it... what about gathering enough info to get the ms-8 to 'detect' it (ie max output on all channels) in which case it reboots or shuts itself off? 

A very microsoft "bsod"-esque solution but better than none


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## aviator79

thomasluke said:


> Low/mid start with 400 and work your down untill the driver sounds stressed at high volume.
> Mid/high start with 2500 and work your way up untill you like the sound.


This is where I started and it sounds pretty good. Better than it ever did before when I was running passive. I have my mids installed in my AC ducts, tweets in sails and mid base in doors.
I did my calibration with my gains way down. Like 2 on the tweets and mids and 3 on the midbase and subs. Can I turn them up or should I turn them up and recalibrate? I need to recalibrate at some point as I want to work my way down from 400 and work up from 2500 as you sated, but didn’t know if was OK to just turn amp gains up some first without recalibrating.


----------



## duro78

Se7en said:


> If you can, make sure your gains are leveled for system balance (gain down to avoid clipping) as much as possible, particularly between your midbass. If you defeat processing, you'll be able to tell quickly. If they're not, try to balance them, and the other channels if they're way off. This can be approximate, not exact. Also, make sure that your sub isn't overwhelming the rest of the system.
> 
> Also, when you recalibrate, as opposed to looking at the mirrors exactly, try centering your mic either at your midbass or between your mids and midbass. Remember, this is all ITD at these frequencies.
> 
> This is what works for me.


Thank you sir'

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## AndyInOC

taibanl said:


> Andy/anyone smarter than me:
> 
> This is purely an academic question as its not a real world use case. If its not worth answering, I understand, I was just curious.
> 
> I replaced only one of my rears with the infinity kappa 42.9i ( waiting on some oem parts for the other)
> 
> everything seemed fine until I went to recalibrate. When I did, I completely lost my center image, it's now pushed into the drivers corner (rear replaced was passenger rear)
> 
> Could the replacement of the single rear cause this? I know that rears are mentioned in the ms8 tips and tricks thread.
> 
> The alternative is that I messed up my tweeter in the center when I had it out to test against the 42.9i, but I was able to get some 10-12khz test tones through it so I think it's ok.


Pure speculation on my part but I think the differences in 2 speakers definitely screwed you up. I have spent ungodly amounts of time tuning and trying to get the ms8 right and last week finally nailed it. Took my time, did a rough level match by ear, gains were super low, tuned at -35 and it finally wowed me, but I gave the ms8 plenty to work with. So basically yes, I think the different drivers with different sensitivities and characteristics probably caused the issue.


----------



## rugdnit

rugdnit said:


> Just one battery. The noise only comes through the sub channel though. I tried running the #8 channel through my midbass and the noise showed up there as well.


I believe I have gotten rid of the noise I was experiencing. I did a restore to factory settings and reran the calibration in the driver seat only. I was not thrilled with the tune, so I did a full reset again and had the measurements run from the driver and passenger seat. So far the sub channel noise is gone. Not sure if I like the tune though. The only real difference between this tune and previous tunes where I got the noise is that I let the engine run and I only did the two front seats rather than all four ( with the engine off ).


UPDATE: So the noise comes back when I use the turn signals and / or brake. Once I accelerate the noise goes away. Starts all over again every time I use turn signals or brake.


----------



## slinger1

Changing my setup and have a few questions....I finally installed my 2 channel amp and got speaker wires into front doors...Im planning on doing the front doors (focal 164vbs) on 4 channels...2 channels from 4 channel amp(Rockford p400.4) for front tweets and other 2 for rear comps. ran 1way through focal crossover....The 2 channel (Rockford 300.2) i will use for front mids...then my subs have their own mono amp so im using 7 channels of the ms8 all with external amps......now my questions are ..should i remove crossovers completely from fronts or leave it on just the tweets and have the mids strait to amp?And before i do anything should i do a system reset since im changing channel config. on ms8?? Also any advise on crossover settings and setup info on running 2 way front...1 way sides..and subs will be helpful...Everything im reading lately here is about the jet noise and im getting scared to mess with anything because mine sounds great using only 5 channels and i dont wanna do something that will cause that dreaded noise.............


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

I have been installing my MS-8 since early yesterday. I hoped that JBL would be open today to answer my questions and cure my headache, but they aren't. I have a 2009 Mitsubishi Lancer with 9 speaker Rockford Fosgate + Navigation Audio System. This system has an 8-Channel amplifier that also has built-in DSP (rockford should be shot for this). The 8-channels are as follows: 2 tweeters in the front, 2 midrange drivers in the front, 2 full range coaxial speakers in the rear, and a 10" sub in the trunk which uses the last 2 channels. 

The MS8 has 8 inputs and 8 outputs, this confuses me because I hear they say to only use the front left and right for inputs (2-channels). That would be a full range signal, which it would then distribute accordingly to all the outputs. I am connecting the MS-8 after the stock amp, but before the speakers. 

So, my question:
1) Being that my tweeters and midrange speakers each have their own channel, do I connect all 4 to the input of the MS-8? Do I also connect the two rear coaxial speakers to the input on the MS-8?

2) The stock amp uses 2-channels for the sub. Am I suppost to connect the MS-8 to those sub outputs on the amp? I don't think the MS-8 could power the sub, its 100+ watts. 

As of this moment, I have all 6-channels (hi-level) connected to the MS-8. so my front components and rear coaxials. For some reason, the MS-8 for the life of me WONT recognize my rear speakers >:[. Help please? This is the only day I have left to get this installed.


----------



## Se7en

DuffmasterFresh said:


> I have been installing my MS-8 since early yesterday. I hoped that JBL would be open today to answer my questions and cure my headache, but they aren't. I have a 2009 Mitsubishi Lancer with 9 speaker Rockford Fosgate + Navigation Audio System. This system has an 8-Channel amplifier that also has built-in DSP (rockford should be shot for this). The 8-channels are as follows: 2 tweeters in the front, 2 midrange drivers in the front, 2 full range coaxial speakers in the rear, and a 10" sub in the trunk which uses the last 2 channels.
> 
> The MS8 has 8 inputs and 8 outputs, this confuses me because I hear they say to only use the front left and right for inputs (2-channels). That would be a full range signal, which it would then distribute accordingly to all the outputs. I am connecting the MS-8 after the stock amp, but before the speakers.
> 
> So, my question:
> 1) Being that my tweeters and midrange speakers each have their own channel, do I connect all 4 to the input of the MS-8? Do I also connect the two rear coaxial speakers to the input on the MS-8?
> 
> 2) The stock amp uses 2-channels for the sub. Am I suppost to connect the MS-8 to those sub outputs on the amp? I don't think the MS-8 could power the sub, its 100+ watts.
> 
> As of this moment, I have all 6-channels (hi-level) connected to the MS-8. so my front components and rear coaxials. For some reason, the MS-8 for the life of me WONT recognize my rear speakers >:[. Help please? This is the only day I have left to get this installed.


Regarding only using two channels into inputs one and two, this is ONLY if you're using an aftermarket HU or if you happen to have two full range signals to feed it.

In your case, I would feed the MS8 all of the speaker level outputs from your factory amp. 2 considerations. 1. Only feed the sub out from your factory amp into channels 7 or 8 of the MS8. 2. If you can, feed the closest thing to a full range left or right signal into channels 1 and 2 of the MS8. Edit: I would not use your factory rear fills for ch 1 and 2, even if they claim to be full range.

For your second question, regarding the two channels into your sub, I don't have an answer. I'm not sure if they're feeding a mono signal to your factory sub or not. In theory, if it's a mono signal, just one out put from the factory sub amp should be enough. If it's stereo, I'm not sure if bridging the stereo inputs, to feed a summed L+R signal into the MS8 works or is safe, or not. Maybe someone with more experience can speak to this.

As for running the sub off of your factory amp and the rest off of the MS8, this will not work for a number of reasons. You need to run the entire system off of the MS8. If MS8 power is not enough, you will need to add external amplifiers. Your sub if obviously a good candidate for this.

As for the rear surrounds, during your initial setup, make sure your assigning as follows. 1 sub, 2-way front, 1way surround. This should only utilize 7 of your MS channels, leaving one more for a center at a later date.

I hope this helps.


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

Se7en said:


> Regarding only using two channels into inputs one and two, this is ONLY if you're using an aftermarket HU or if you happen to have two full range signals to feed it.
> 
> In your case, I would feed the MS8 all of the speaker level outputs from your factory amp. 2 considerations. 1. Only feed the sub out from your factory amp into channels 7 or 8 of the MS8. 2. If you can, feed the closest thing to a full range left or right signal into channels 1 and 2 of the MS8. Edit: I would not use your factory rear fills for ch 1 and 2, even if they claim to be full range.
> 
> For your second question, regarding the two channels into your sub, I don't have an answer. I'm not sure if they're feeding a mono signal to your factory sub or not. In theory, if it's a mono signal, just one out put from the factory sub amp should be enough. If it's stereo, I'm not sure if bridging the stereo inputs, to feed a summed L+R signal into the MS8 works or is safe, or not. Maybe someone with more experience can speak to this.
> 
> As for running the sub off of your factory amp and the rest off of the MS8, this will not work for a number of reasons. You need to run the entire system off of the MS8. If MS8 power is not enough, you will need to add external amplifiers. Your sub if obviously a good candidate for this.
> 
> As for the rear surrounds, during your initial setup, make sure your assigning as follows. 1 sub, 2-way front, 1way surround. This should only utilize 7 of your MS channels, leaving one more for a center at a later date.
> 
> I hope this helps.


Wow, I definitely appreciate the help!!

I have my front left tweeter on channel 1 and my front left midrange driver on channel 2. Is this how I should be doing it? Then channel 3 is right tweeter and channel 4 is right midrange. Channel 5 is left rear coax and channel 6 is right rear coax. I will just disconnect the sub entirely until I get an amp. Should I still select 1 sub? I have been putting no sub, no center and for whatever reason I can't get it to recognize the rear speakers!


----------



## Se7en

DuffmasterFresh said:


> Wow, I definitely appreciate the help!!
> 
> I have my front left tweeter on channel 1 and my front left midrange driver on channel 2. Is this how I should be doing it? Then channel 3 is right tweeter and channel 4 is right midrange. Channel 5 is left rear coax and channel 6 is right rear coax. I will just disconnect the sub entirely until I get an amp. Should I still select 1 sub? I have been putting no sub, no center and for whatever reason I can't get it to recognize the rear speakers!


Based on what I've read, it may be worth running your front mids to input channels 1 and 2 on the MS, but honestly, I don't know how important it really is. 

Actually come to think of it. You could run both subwoofer channels into inputs 7 and 8 on the ms8, and select 2 subs (I'd go 2ch mono) for output to the physical sub. This will feed your sub more power, although maybe not as much as you're used to. *Andy or anyone else, is this a bad idea? I've never used MS power.*

Lastly, in order for the ms8 to construct a full range signal, you will need to run a sub input into it, whether you decide to use the ms to power your sub or not.


----------



## kaigoss69

Let's not get inputs and outputs mixed up. They are totally separate and independent of each other.

For input, you need to feed a full range signal. This means front tweeters on CH 1&2, front mids on 3&4, and subwoofer on 7&8. That's a complete full range signal. Feeding the rear signal will just complicate things, just leave it alone. Also it may not be 100% full range.

For output, you can map the channels wherever you want. I would suggest Ch1&2 for front tweets, 3&4 front mids, 5&6 rear coaxes, and 7&8 for your subs. Channels 1-6 will run on MS-8 ddeck power, 7&8 through RCAs to an external amp.

Make sure all processing on the HU is turned off.


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

Se7en said:


> Based on what I've read, it may be worth running your front mids to input channels 1 and 2 on the MS, but honestly, I don't know how important it really is.
> 
> Actually come to think of it. You could run both subwoofer channels into inputs 7 and 8 on the ms8, and select 2 subs (I'd go 2ch mono) for output to the physical sub. This will feed your sub more power, although maybe not as much as you're used to. *Andy or anyone else, is this a bad idea? I've never used MS power.*
> 
> Lastly, in order for the ms8 to construct a full range signal, you will need to run a sub input into it, whether you decide to use the ms to power your sub or not.


So you suggest I run both mids to channels one and two? But then it won't be getting the tweeters higher frequency signal. The stock amp controls the frequency that each speaker gets. Though, I would think the MS8 is smart enough to find the tweeters and use their frequency, maybe not though. 

I am worried about connecting the stock sub output to the MS8 input. I am worried that the voltage of the output (75W to each VC on the sub, 2 channels) is going to blow the MS8's 7 and 8 input. I guess it is a stock system though, so maybe it will be ok? Should I try to run the sub off the MS-8 anyway (at 2 ohms, 2channels, 60W)


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

kaigoss69 said:


> Let's not get inputs and outputs mixed up. They are totally separate and independent of each other.
> 
> For input, you need to feed a full range signal. This means front tweeters on CH 1&2, front mids on 3&4, and subwoofer on 7&8. That's a complete full range signal. Feeding the rear signal will just complicate things, just leave it alone. Also it may not be 100% full range.
> 
> For output, you can map the channels wherever you want. I would suggest Ch1&2 for front tweets, 3&4 front mids, 5&6 rear coaxes, and 7&8 for your subs. Channels 1-6 will run on MS-8 ddeck power, 7&8 through RCAs to an external amp.
> 
> Make sure all processing on the HU is turned off.


I think I see the light now! I will give it a try. I have already wired the outputs as tweeter channel 1, mid channel 2, etc. Do I have to change this to the order you said, or am I fine how I have it?
Should I be worried about the stock amp feeding too much voltage to the MS8 inputs on the sub channel? The stock sub is rated 75W each channel (2-channels total).


----------



## Se7en

DuffmasterFresh said:


> I think I see the light now! I will give it a try. I have already wired the outputs as tweeter channel 1, mid channel 2, etc. Do I have to change this to the order you said, or am I fine how I have it?
> Should I be worried about the stock amp feeding too much voltage to the MS8 inputs on the sub channel? The stock sub is rated 75W each channel (2-channels total).


Input channels 7 and 8 on the MS8 are designed for sub channel inputs.

You should be just fine.


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

Se7en said:


> Input channels 7 and 8 on the MS8 are designed for sub channel inputs.
> 
> You should be just fine.


Great! Thank you very much, I will try it out and see what happens, then report back here. 

So, I have a Dual 4 ohm subwoofer connected right now to the stock amp. I will cut the outputs and wire them to the MS8 inputs. Should I still run the sub on the MS8 even though it will only get 40W? (20 each coil). Its an RE Audio Rex woofer, handles 175W I think. I would like to keep my bass if possible until I buy a true amp for it.


----------



## Se7en

DuffmasterFresh said:


> Great! Thank you very much, I will try it out and see what happens, then report back here.
> 
> So, I have a Dual 4 ohm subwoofer connected right now to the stock amp. I will cut the outputs and wire them to the MS8 inputs. Should I still run the sub on the MS8 even though it will only get 40W? (20 each coil). Its an RE Audio Rex woofer, handles 175W I think. I would like to keep my bass if possible until I buy a true amp for it.


I don't think anyone has an answer for you on this one. If you had a 1000w amp on the sub, the first thing you'd have to do is turn the gains way down. I'd give it a shot and see how it sounds.


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

Se7en said:


> I don't think anyone has an answer for you on this one. If you had a 1000w amp on the sub, the first thing you'd have to do is turn the gains way down. I'd give it a shot and see how it sounds.


I will try it and get back to everyone. Hopefully I get enough pics of my install to do a nice big write up. Thanks so much for the help and for helping so quickly. It has relieved a ton of stress, thank you!


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

I disconnected the rear speakers from the MS8 input, but kept them on the MS8 output. I also connected the 2-channel sub output of the stock amp to channel 7 and 8 of the MS8 input.

For whatever reason, it still does not show that I have rear speakers! Idk whats going on. I went through the calibration and it sounds better now that i tried different crossover frequencies, but it needs work. Sound stage is damn good. But no rear speakers... idk what thats all about. All front speakers work great. Once I get those rear speakers to show up, I will button it all up, put the seat back in and re-calibrate while sitting in the seat and not crouching as though I were in a seat haha. 

I am going to connect the subwoofer too it in a minute and see if it will actually move the 10" woofer.


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## kaigoss69

If you have only one set of rears then they will be called sides.


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

kaigoss69 said:


> If you have only one set of rears then they will be called sides.


Oh wow your right!!! I connected the sub up, each VC got one channel. After i recalibrated and used side speakers, the rears now work great. And shortly after I s*** my pants when the subwoofer was outperforming the stock amp like a damn champ. The MS8 moves the sub so good, maybe as a result of the sound processing. But holy crap, it sounds amazing!!! The sub is making noises it never did before and delivering punchy, crisp bass off the MS8 output. I am very happy right now indeed.


----------



## Hdale85

Is your sub dual 2 ohm coils?


----------



## slinger1

Well got mine re-configured....Heres where im at.

ch.1-FL tweeter
ch.2-FR tweeter
ch.3-FL mid
ch.4-FR mid
ch.5-LR (1way)
ch.6-RR (1way)
ch.7-sub
ch.8- (goes to sub mono amp but not assigned)

MS-8 volume set at -50 for cal.
SUB= 1 SS 26hz/12db
SUB/FRONT 100hz/24db
front (hi) 4500hz/12db
side 80/24db

Everything sounds ok but im looking for some advise on the crossover settings and slopes that may improve my setup...


----------



## Hdale85

<<moron


----------



## Hdale85

Wait, I'm thinking wrong I think lol. 

What drivers are you running?


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## DuffmasterFresh

its a dual 4 ohm sub. i have one channel running to each VC. so that would be 4 ohms each. should i be worries that each channel might send conflicting voltage to the sub and tear it apart?


----------



## Hdale85

Do you have the sub output set to mono? If so then no I don't think that would be an issue. I doubt you'd see the sub tear apart anyways probably just do some strange things. I was just making sure it wasn't dual 2 ohm because not sure the MS-8 can handle that. 

How loud do you listen? I'm kind of surprised it has enough power for your sub and what not.... I've been going back and forth on getting a 6 channel amp or just using the MS-8 amps.


----------



## kaigoss69

duro78 said:


> Andy or anyone else, is there a reason why I'm getting a considerably more output out of my drivers side mid bass. Its almost at full excursion while the passenger side one is at about 25%. Heavy bass songs the drivers side bottoms out while the other one is playing normal.


I had the same problem. Went through a bunch of testing and posted graphs back then. The output difference is definitely affected by calibration volume. Andy said it's normal, but it drove me crazy. I don't have that problem any more now, can't tell you exactly why but I'm not complaining!


----------



## slinger1

slinger1 said:


> Well got mine re-configured....Heres where im at.
> 
> ch.1-FL tweeter
> ch.2-FR tweeter
> ch.3-FL mid
> ch.4-FR mid
> ch.5-LR (1way)
> ch.6-RR (1way)
> ch.7-sub
> ch.8- (goes to sub mono amp but not assigned)
> 
> MS-8 volume set at -50 for cal.
> SUB= 1 SS 26hz/12db
> SUB/FRONT 100hz/24db
> front (hi) 4500hz/12db
> side 80/24db
> 
> Everything sounds ok but im looking for some advise on the crossover settings and slopes that may improve my setup...


anyone?


----------



## Hdale85

slinger1 said:


> anyone?


As I asked what drivers are you running? Many times the lower you cross your tweeter the better it will sound.

Also I believe on the sub channel the crossover point is the high point, I may be wrong though but if I'm not then you have a gap between mids 100hz and your sub at 26hz.


----------



## thomasluke

Hdale85 said:


> As I asked what drivers are you running? Many times the lower you cross your tweeter the better it will sound.
> 
> Also I believe on the sub channel the crossover point is the high point, I may be wrong though but if I'm not then you have a gap between mids 100hz and your sub at 26hz.


The ss filter is what is set to 26. Has nothing to with the midbass to sub blending.


----------



## slinger1

Hdale85 said:


> As I asked what drivers are you running? Many times the lower you cross your tweeter the better it will sound.
> 
> Also I believe on the sub channel the crossover point is the high point, I may be wrong though but if I'm not then you have a gap between mids 100hz and your sub at 26hz.


sorry wasent sure who you were asking.....


i have focal 165vbs in front doors...tweets are ch 1-2 and mids are 3-4 on MS-8...i still have the focal crossovers on the tweeters but the mids (3-4)are from 2 channel amp (p300x2)...my (sides) rear doors are 1 way on 5-6 (1-2-5-6 are from p400x4 amp)they are focal 130a1s..i also have 2 RE Audio SEX10d4s wired at 1 ohm under rear seat in a foxbox..ported & tuned @36hz....on a RE xtx 3000x1..the sub amp has 2 rca's going to it but i only selected 1 sub and used ch. 7....


----------



## Hdale85

Why are you using the Focal crossovers on just the tweeters?

And my bad on the subsonic I should of realized that.


----------



## slinger1

was thinking they may save the tweets if i get the freakin jet noise...should i remove them??


----------



## Hdale85

Not sure they would save them, someone said it wasn't an actual frequency issue but a power surge in which case I don't think the crossover would save much. Not sure weather leaving it connected to the crossover though is bad?


----------



## slinger1

gunna go change settings to:

SS 26hz/24db
front/sub 80hz/24db
front hi 4200hz/24db
sides 65hz/24db

still not really sure what im doing with the db slopes or what im suposed to even be trying to do with them....


----------



## vrdublu

slinger1 said:


> gunna go change settings to:
> 
> SS 26hz/24db
> front/sub 80hz/24db
> front hi 4200hz/24db
> sides 65hz/24db
> 
> still not really sure what im doing with the db slopes or what im suposed to even be trying to do with them....


The subsonic defaults to 20 @ 12db, I would leave it there. I'm not too familiar with the drivers you're using but I would imagine 80-100 should be alright for the mid/sub pass. You should research based on the crossover that came with the components to see what the mid and tweet are crossed over at to give you a starting point on the components abilities. If the mid can play that without straining too much I would cross it over as high as possible. The sides I believe should be crossed at 100Hz, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is what I have read here in the past. Try not to over analyze it and enjoy the music.


----------



## Se7en

DuffmasterFresh said:


> Oh wow your right!!! I connected the sub up, each VC got one channel. After i recalibrated and used side speakers, the rears now work great. And shortly after I s*** my pants when the subwoofer was outperforming the stock amp like a damn champ. The MS8 moves the sub so good, maybe as a result of the sound processing. But holy crap, it sounds amazing!!! The sub is making noises it never did before and delivering punchy, crisp bass off the MS8 output. I am very happy right now indeed.


Glad you're up and running!


----------



## slinger1

ty for the replys..........

looked at specs on speakers...for the VBs the crossover is 4500hz/6db for LP and 4500hz/12db on HP...the A1s im running as 1way with focal crossovers and they are 5000hz/12db for both HP and LP...


----------



## t3sn4f2

Hdale85 said:


> Not sure they would save them, someone said it wasn't an actual frequency issue but a power surge in which case I don't think the crossover would save much. Not sure weather leaving it connected to the crossover though is bad?


It would certainly save them, if the crossover was one with some type of tweeter protection built in. Usually a light bulb or more commonly a yellow thin capacitor looking thing called PTC. Both of which work by getting more resistive as excess power passes through them. 

And the high pass cap that crosses the tweeter over would eliminate any potential low frequency noise that would not trigger the tweeter protection circuit yet would mechanical damage the tweeter.


----------



## Hdale85

Yeah I suppose that's the truth.


----------



## mattdg1

Has anyone used the MS-8 in 6th Gen Camry (2011 specifically) with JBL and NAV? I am considering using one with the factory stereo/nav unit to feed multiple amps. I am assuming the factory JBL amplifier is bypassed, correct?

Anyway, I want to upgrade all the speakers, add a sub, and use MS-8 vs full deck swap for another DDIN unit with NAV. Thoughts?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## bhammer

So here is what I think is a weird issue I am having with my Side speakers (rear deck). Both speakers cut in and out only while the Logic 7 is on. It sounds like the processor is having a hard time deciding what to do. With fade set center, if I get in my back seat and get close to the speaker, I can hear it pronounced but not so much when I am in the front seat. If I fade all the way to the rear, it is bad. Anyone else have this issue? I am uploading two youtube videos of it now. This happens with music or comercials on CD or HD radio and at all vol levels on both the h/u and ms-8.

Here are my settings:

Sub [email protected]
Sub Front [email protected]
Front [email protected]
Center [email protected]
Side [email protected]

I'll put in the links once the upload is completed.


----------



## gasongasoff

Hdale85 said:


> As I asked what drivers are you running? Many times the lower you cross your tweeter the better it will sound.


Not necessarily. If your tweeter xover freq is too low, you won't attenuate the nasty-sounding resonance peak of your tweeter, and it'll sound like crap. If you have steeper filters or a tweeter with a lower Fs or your tweeter's resonance doesn't sound too bad, then you might get away with a lower xover freq. Or you could build a compensation circuit to filter out the peak. [/QUOTE]



duro78 said:


> Andy or anyone else, is there a reason why I'm getting a considerably more output out of my drivers side mid bass. Its almost at full excursion while the passenger side one is at about 25%. Heavy bass songs the drivers side bottoms out while the other one is playing normal.


Here's my guess: the midbass on the driver's side is way more off-axis than the passenger's side. This means that you start to get beaming and in order to get the same output at the top of the driver's passband, you have to really crank the output. The passenger's side, OTOH, is still enough on-axis that you don't have this problem. One way to test this is simply to lower the LP filter freq on your midbass (to an appropriate freq for your driver diameter) and see if your driver still does this. 



Hdale85 said:


> Not sure they would save them, someone said it wasn't an actual frequency issue but a power surge in which case I don't think the crossover would save much. Not sure weather leaving it connected to the crossover though is bad?


I'd suggest at least a well-chosen series cap on your tweeters. At least it'll block DC, so that if ever get amp thump (or do something that causes a thump) you don't risk blowing your tweeters. Some people who run active have been pretty lucky without one. Others have not. Whether or not it'll protect your tweeters from the Airplane Noise of Death, who knows. Any tweeter will blow with enough power applied. But the max power a tweeter can handle is frequency dependent. So if you can filter out the bottom few octaves with a cap, it might make the difference between a diaphragm on your lap or not.


----------



## slinger1

bhammer said:


> So here is what I think is a weird issue I am having with my Side speakers (rear deck). Both speakers cut in and out only while the Logic 7 is on. It sounds like the processor is having a hard time deciding what to do. With fade set center, if I get in my back seat and get close to the speaker, I can hear it pronounced but not so much when I am in the front seat. If I fade all the way to the rear, it is bad. Anyone else have this issue? I am uploading two youtube videos of it now. This happens with music or comercials on CD or HD radio and at all vol levels on both the h/u and ms-8.
> 
> Here are my settings:
> 
> Sub [email protected]
> Sub Front [email protected]
> Front [email protected]
> Center [email protected]
> Side [email protected]
> 
> I'll put in the links once the upload is completed.


i have noticed the same effect when L7 is on...but i dont have a center channel and i thought the MS8 was trying to send some of the rear/side signal to the center but i dont know.......mine does do that tho...sounds fine in front but very noticable in backseat on certain songs.....could it be you need to calibrate for all seats then select all?..i have only done the front seats so far...


----------



## bhammer

slinger1 said:


> i have noticed the same effect when L7 is on...but i dont have a center channel and i thought the MS8 was trying to send some of the rear/side signal to the center but i dont know.......mine does do that tho...sounds fine in front but very noticable in backseat on certain songs.....could it be you need to calibrate for all seats then select all?..i have only done the front seats so far...


I don't want to run in all though, kind of defeats the point of the ms8. I can't hear it, but it affects the SQ. If I disconnect that amp, the SQ improves. I too don't get it on every song. One that I do for sure is Rolling Stones Miss You and there was some Kelly Clarkson song on HD when I tried it.


----------



## bhammer

bhammer said:


> So here is what I think is a weird issue I am having with my Side speakers (rear deck). Both speakers cut in and out only while the Logic 7 is on. It sounds like the processor is having a hard time deciding what to do. With fade set center, if I get in my back seat and get close to the speaker, I can hear it pronounced but not so much when I am in the front seat. If I fade all the way to the rear, it is bad. Anyone else have this issue? I am uploading two youtube videos of it now. This happens with music or comercials on CD or HD radio and at all vol levels on both the h/u and ms-8.
> 
> Here are my settings:
> 
> Sub [email protected]
> Sub Front [email protected]
> Front [email protected]
> Center [email protected]
> Side [email protected]
> 
> I'll put in the links once the upload is completed.


Okay, video one is Speaker cutout - YouTube This is from the front seat.

Video 2 is at the rear speaker with fade set to center. Rear speaker - YouTube


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

Ok, so the MS8 is installed. It's powering my subwoofer rather well which is surprising to me. I have done the acoustical adjustments to all the seats.

In driver seat mode, I feel that it sounds pretty bad. It seems like it threw everything at the right speakers. Isn't it suppose to make it seem like the music is coming from in front of you while in driver mode? Passenger mode seems a little better and Front mode sounds pretty good. 

I feel that the MS-8 is "holding back". It just seems like there is some hidden potential there that I have not unlocked. Is it because my crossovers were not set right (which is prolly the case haha) or maybe because I have not set the 30 band EQ? I have not idea what xover frequencies I should use for my stock 2009 Mitsubishi Lancer Rockford Fosgate factory speakers.


----------



## Hdale85

gasongasoff said:


> Not necessarily. If your tweeter xover freq is too low, you won't attenuate the nasty-sounding resonance peak of your tweeter, and it'll sound like crap. If you have steeper filters or a tweeter with a lower Fs or your tweeter's resonance doesn't sound too bad, then you might get away with a lower xover freq. Or you could build a compensation circuit to filter out the peak.


Well this is why I asked what drivers, you can't go lower then what you're particular driver can handle.


----------



## t3sn4f2

bhammer said:


> Okay, video one is Speaker cutout - YouTube This is from the front seat.
> 
> Video 2 is at the rear speaker with fade set to center. Rear speaker - YouTube


The problem, if it can be called that, is the way some songs are created and/or how well the format it was encoded at preserves phase. The MS-8 steers out of phase information to the rear/sides. Lower bitrate tracks and poorer quality sources like FM, HD FM, SAT will suffer from this more than a higher bit rate files or CD because they don't preserve that phase information as well. 

Also, these songs are mastered in a two channel stereo studio. The producer sits there and does all type of funky stuff (ie makes music) and listens to see how it sounds in stereo. But they don't evaluate it on a multi channel setup to see if that weird effect they just added sounds acceptable there as well. So it is what it is.


----------



## duro78

kaigoss69 said:


> I had the same problem. Went through a bunch of testing and posted graphs back then. The output difference is definitely affected by calibration volume. Andy said it's normal, but it drove me crazy. I don't have that problem any more now, can't tell you exactly why but I'm not complaining!


How can it be avoided? I don't recall having the problem before its driving me crazy as well because I have turn the bass way down. Its making my system sound like crap.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## chad

t3sn4f2 said:


> The problem, if it can be called that, is the way some songs are created and/or how well the format it was encoded at preserves phase. The MS-8 steers out of phase information to the rear/sides. Lower bitrate tracks and poorer quality sources like FM, HD FM, SAT will suffer from this more than a higher bit rate files or CD because they don't preserve that phase information as well.


There are also image/spectral exciters used in broadcast to give it a "big sound" this is why the announcer, which in theory should be total mono, is jumping around.


----------



## taibanl

Confirm you are using the fader on the ms8 and not the hu?


----------



## slinger1

I have 2 inputs on my mono sub amp...I have 2 RE Audio subs in a foxbox wired for 1ohm...I am only using channel 7 for subs and selecting 1 for SUB in MS8 setup...Would it be better to use 7 and 8 from MS8 and select 2 for SUB??


----------



## bhammer

t3sn4f2 said:


> The problem, if it can be called that, is the way some songs are created and/or how well the format it was encoded at preserves phase. The MS-8 steers out of phase information to the rear/sides. Lower bitrate tracks and poorer quality sources like FM, HD FM, SAT will suffer from this more than a higher bit rate files or CD because they don't preserve that phase information as well.
> 
> Also, these songs are mastered in a two channel stereo studio. The producer sits there and does all type of funky stuff (ie makes music) and listens to see how it sounds in stereo. But they don't evaluate it on a multi channel setup to see if that weird effect they just added sounds acceptable there as well. So it is what it is.



Thanks for the input. So that just bites the big one as it occurs more than not on radio and less frequently on CD. I don't listen to CD often as most is converted to 192 bit and stuck on my phone.

Is there anyway around this while using L7?


----------



## slinger1

well...im gunna leave it where its at for awhile but i think im close to getting all im gunna get from my system...Theres no doubt The MS8 has improved my sound stage and sound quality in my truck...heres my setup as of now...

MS8 volume set at -50 for cal..(tryed others but -50 seems like my best setting)

Sub=2 (mono amp with 2 inputs..2 RE subs wired for 1ohm)
Front= 2way (focal 165vbs)
Center= none
Sides= 1way (focal 130a1s with crossover connected)
Rear= none

using 8 channels of MS8 from 3 seperate amps....

ch1. FL (hi)
ch2. FR (hi)
ch3. FL (lo)
ch4. FR (lo)
ch5. LR
CH6. RR
ch7. Sub
ch8. Sub

channels 1-2-5-6 are from Rockford P400x4
channels 3-4 are from Rockford P300x2
channels 7-8 are from RE xtx 3000x1

Subsonic = 26hz/24db
Sub/Front = 80hz/24db
Front hi = 4200hz/12db
Sides = 100hz/24db

Have not used any type of RTA to see if im getting all the freqs. but everything sounds awsome at the moment.....


----------



## jbradle7

kaigoss69 said:


> For input, you need to feed a full range signal. This means front tweeters on CH 1&2, front mids on 3&4, and subwoofer on 7&8.


GD I feel stupid... I just realized I have my sub inputs connected to 3/4 not 7/8. 








From the manual:
"You can connect the factory front speaker outputs to any MS-8 Hi Level inputs, but factory stereo or amplifier subwoofer outputs MUST be connected ONLY to the MS-8’s channel 7 and/or 8 inputs. During the calibration/setup process, the MS-8 will “normalize” the input signals and derive as many output signals as your speaker system requires."

I'm assuming this is because channels 7/8 are designed to handle the higher power of the factory sub output? There is no mention as to what will occur if the sub inputs are not connected to 7/8, maybe Andy will chime in here. My system sounds pretty good as-is but I will be correcting this ASAP so I don't do any damage to my MS-8.

Has anyone experienced problems due to similar connecting stupidity?


----------



## taibanl

Guys a few questions:


*When level matching, how close is "close enough" in terms of dB level?* (I have amped channels with a lot of headroom and MS-8 channels with none), I'd like to have the MS-8 try and "bump" the internally powered channels instead of bringing the rest down.
*See quote:*



taibanl said:


> All,
> 
> I am wanting to biamp my Rainbow SL 100 coax (primarily because I just happen to have an extra channel on my MS-8)
> 
> The CAL20 tweeter which is part of that coax has a recommended cross of 3.8khz
> 
> The coax (which uses a PTC for the tweeter) has an effective cross point of 4.8khz. I don't think I can easily delete/change this.
> 
> Would you recommend setting the crossover for 3.8khz and forgetting about it? What response would I expect?
> 
> 
> Side note: Rainbow's marketing material:
> 
> Tweeter connection through magnet to prevent asymmetrical movement of the mid-bass cone
> ...but if you look at the UNDERside of the mid bass cone, the MIDBASS wiring is glued to the woofer.





taibanl said:


> Bump. Tweeter will go on its own ms8 channel but I am thinking the ptc is inside the desired frequency range


----------



## naiku

I am certain this has been asked, and answered more than once already, but I am not having much luck searching. I have been using my MS8 for about a week now, and while I love how it sounds, I can't seem to get my sub to sound, for lack of a better word, right. 

It's either over the top boomy, or completely lacking. I can't seem to find the happy medium. I have not really deviated from the default settings much, partly because other than the sub, I am happy with how it sounds, but also because I am not sure what to change. My system is the following:

Audi Symphony II head unit.
RCA low level into MS8
Massive Audio CK6 (front)
Stock Bose (center)
Alpine Type R coax (side/rear)
Elemental Design 11KV.2 in sealed 0.5cf box.
Alpine MRV-F345 running front and center speakers
Alpine MRD-M605 running sub
MS8 internal amp running side/rear speakers.

According to Massive Audio, I should be able to high pass the front speakers at 55hz. 

My amps have digital gain settings, so I typically set them to 2V and run set up at -40db on the MS8. I have tried with higher gain, and lower gain, but cannot seem to get the sweet spot for the sub. 

So, what do I do to get my sub sounding right? Sorry for essentially asking something I know has been answered, I read several threads before posting this, but its frustrating listening to a song that I know has good sub-bass, and for everything else to sound right but be missing the one element is disappointing. 

Maybe I should be less afraid to tweak around with the EQ some more? 

Thanks.


----------



## t3sn4f2

bhammer said:


> Thanks for the input. So that just bites the big one as it occurs more than not on radio and less frequently on CD. I don't listen to CD often as most is converted to 192 bit and stuck on my phone.
> 
> Is there anyway around this while using L7?


192kbps is more than what I would concider "higher bit rate", you should be ok with those. 

Since you are using a center you can't turn off L7 and run it in typical stereo fashion with the fader to the front, so IIRC the compromise is fading to the front for tracks that you don't care about SQ, saving that setup to one preset, and then having another preset for SQ.


----------



## bhammer

t3sn4f2 said:


> 192kbps is more than what I would consider "higher bit rate", you should be ok with those.
> 
> Since you are using a center you can't turn off L7 and run it in typical stereo fashion with the fader to the front, so IIRC the compromise is fading to the front for tracks that you don't care about SQ, saving that setup to one preset, and then having another preset for SQ.



I was afraid of that. I wish I could blame JBL as that is easier than blaming the studios.  I love the MS8 and on some of the stuff I listen too, it is just incredible. I don't like the idea of having to switch more stuff based on the song. I planned to run displayless. My H/U, a Kenwood 9980HD, has a pretty extensive t/a and Dolby setup from my initial read of the manual. I really didn't do much reading on it because I planned to have it all turned off. I'll have to read up on it and see if I can remove the MS8 from the picture. Maybe another MS8 that ends up in the classifieds.

Do you think this would be possible to fix with a software update? Since I am a programming and aduio expert,   I think it should be easy to tell the MS8 to totally block the channles if it is doing this.  Maybe a question more geared towards Andy?


----------



## bhammer

naiku said:


> I am certain this has been asked, and answered more than once already, but I am not having much luck searching. I have been using my MS8 for about a week now, and while I love how it sounds, I can't seem to get my sub to sound, for lack of a better word, right.
> 
> It's either over the top boomy, or completely lacking. I can't seem to find the happy medium. I have not really deviated from the default settings much, partly because other than the sub, I am happy with how it sounds, but also because I am not sure what to change. My system is the following:
> 
> Audi Symphony II head unit.
> RCA low level into MS8
> Massive Audio CK6 (front)
> Stock Bose (center)
> Alpine Type R coax (side/rear)
> Elemental Design 11KV.2 in sealed 0.5cf box.
> Alpine MRV-F345 running front and center speakers
> Alpine MRD-M605 running sub
> MS8 internal amp running side/rear speakers.
> 
> According to Massive Audio, I should be able to high pass the front speakers at 55hz.
> 
> My amps have digital gain settings, so I typically set them to 2V and run set up at -40db on the MS8. I have tried with higher gain, and lower gain, but cannot seem to get the sweet spot for the sub.
> 
> So, what do I do to get my sub sounding right? Sorry for essentially asking something I know has been answered, I read several threads before posting this, but its frustrating listening to a song that I know has good sub-bass, and for everything else to sound right but be missing the one element is disappointing.
> 
> Maybe I should be less afraid to tweak around with the EQ some more?
> 
> Thanks.


I don't know if this will fix your issue or not but helped with mine. Are you running a remote bass gain? I unpluged mine and reset the gains. That helped to add depth to the range of bass for my setup.


----------



## thomasluke

naiku said:


> I am certain this has been asked, and answered more than once already, but I am not having much luck searching. I have been using my MS8 for about a week now, and while I love how it sounds, I can't seem to get my sub to sound, for lack of a better word, right.
> 
> It's either over the top boomy, or completely lacking. I can't seem to find the happy medium. I have not really deviated from the default settings much, partly because other than the sub, I am happy with how it sounds, but also because I am not sure what to change. My system is the following:
> 
> Audi Symphony II head unit.
> RCA low level into MS8
> Massive Audio CK6 (front)
> Stock Bose (center)
> Alpine Type R coax (side/rear)
> Elemental Design 11KV.2 in sealed 0.5cf box.
> Alpine MRV-F345 running front and center speakers
> Alpine MRD-M605 running sub
> MS8 internal amp running side/rear speakers.
> 
> According to Massive Audio, I should be able to high pass the front speakers at 55hz.
> 
> My amps have digital gain settings, so I typically set them to 2V and run set up at -40db on the MS8. I have tried with higher gain, and lower gain, but cannot seem to get the sweet spot for the sub.
> 
> So, what do I do to get my sub sounding right? Sorry for essentially asking something I know has been answered, I read several threads before posting this, but its frustrating listening to a song that I know has good sub-bass, and for everything else to sound right but be missing the one element is disappointing.
> 
> Maybe I should be less afraid to tweak around with the EQ some more?
> 
> Thanks.


So what your saying is your sub/mid crossover is at 55? If so raise it to 80-90 and use a 24 db slope. It should level things out alot. Right now it's cutting or boosting alot to try and compensate for something thats not their.


----------



## subwoofery

thomasluke said:


> So what your saying is your sub/mid crossover is at 55? If so raise it to 80-90 and use a 24 db slope. It should level things out alot. Right now it's cutting or boosting alot to try and compensate for something thats not their.


x2, 55Hz is WAY TOO LOW on the HP for your CK6... 

Kelvin


----------



## naiku

bhammer said:


> I don't know if this will fix your issue or not but helped with mine. Are you running a remote bass gain?


No remote bass gain here.



thomasluke said:


> So what your saying is your sub/mid crossover is at 55? If so raise it to 80-90 and use a 24 db slope. It should level things out alot. Right now it's cutting or boosting alot to try and compensate for something thats not their.


I think I have it around 60 now, but previously I had kept it at the default of 80. Only last night did I try to change it. I will give it a try at 90 with a 24 db slope when I get home today, and report back if that improves the sub.

On a different subject, how well would the display hold up to hot/cold temperatures? The display screen size perfectly matches the drivers side vent in my dash, while it goes completely against my stealth install, I keep toying with the idea of mounting the display in there. Once I add a red gel to the screen as well, it would look really cool.


----------



## duro78

Anyone having image issues with tweets on a-pillars? Just changed from sail planes to the pillars and I can't get the imaging right whatsoever. Before the image was dead on center like there was a wall down the center of the car, vocals were amazing. I asked a few people to try and locate the speakers while listening and they all pointed to the center of the dash. It was incredible and if I put my head next to the tweets they were barely audible it was like the sound just transferred to the center. Now I can easily locate the tweets and the image is completely off. Before these were the results I had when everything was out of phase but I checked and rechecked all drivers are in phase. Mid bass in doors, drivers side mid and tweet off axis 45 degrees and pass tweet and mid on axis. I don't want to lose that incredible imaging I had before.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## subwoofery

duro78 said:


> Anyone having image issues with tweets on a-pillars? Just changed from sail planes to the pillars and I can't get the imaging right whatsoever. Before the image was dead on center like there was a wall down the center of the car, vocals were amazing. I asked a few people to try and locate the speakers while listening and they all pointed to the center of the dash. It was incredible and if I put my head next to the tweets they were barely audible it was like the sound just transferred to the center. Now I can easily locate the tweets and the image is completely off. Before these were the results I had when everything was out of phase but I checked and rechecked all drivers are in phase. Mid bass in doors, drivers side mid and tweet off axis 45 degrees and pass tweet and mid on axis. I don't want to lose that incredible imaging I had before.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Changing moving the tweeters from sails to pillar must have changed the tweeters phase relationship with the midrange... 
One other thing that Andy mentioned is that having A-pillar tweets, you'll have to deal with more obstructions = reflections... Andy prefers sails and high in doors for TW. 
Few questions: 
- are you active? Or passive between the TW and MID? 
- you said you can locate the TW now... Can you locate both TW or just the closest one? 

Kelvin


----------



## duro78

subwoofery said:


> Changing moving the tweeters from sails to pillar must have changed the tweeters phase relationship with the midrange...
> One other thing that Andy mentioned is that having A-pillar tweets, you'll have to deal with more obstructions = reflections... Andy prefers sails and high in doors for TW.
> Few questions:
> - are you active? Or passive between the TW and MID?
> - you said you can locate the TW now... Can you locate both TW or just the closest one?
> 
> Kelvin


Ahh man all that work for nothing lol. Honestly I was quite satisfied with the tweets in the sails. According to the norm as you know most suggest the pillars over the sails that's why I decided to try it. The whole idea of increasing path length and width. The tweets on the pillars were closer to being on vertical plane as my mids in the kicks than they were on the sails. I had perfect depth and imaging before just thought i could increase it mounting in the pillars but i guess every car and install is different. Ive heard for my particular car 350z the pillars were the best location.By the way I'm fully active. i can locate both tweets now before the image was dead center i was blown away. The sound was no where close to the tweets that's how good it was. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated but I guess the best solution is sticking with what worked. I suffer from always thinking I can make it better. Thanks for the response kelvin

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## subwoofery

duro78 said:


> Ahh man all that work for nothing lol. Honestly I was quite satisfied with the tweets in the sails. According to the norm as you know most suggest the pillars over the sails that's why I decided to try it. The whole idea of increasing path length and width. The tweets on the pillars were closer to being on vertical plane as my mids in the kicks than they were on the sails. I had perfect depth and imaging before just thought i could increase it mounting in the pillars but i guess every car and install is different. Ive heard for my particular car 350z the pillars were the best location.By the way I'm fully active. i can locate both tweets now before the image was dead center i was blown away. The sound was no where close to the tweets that's how good it was. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated but I guess the best solution is sticking with what worked. I suffer from always thinking I can make it better. Thanks for the response kelvin
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Yep... Should've left to what worked  

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1287479-post4965.html 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1286907-post4942.html 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1286789-post4930.html 

Kelvin


----------



## slinger1

For the people that are happy with their MS8 how much EQ are you using after auto tune..? My EQ curve looks like a U with the arms bent down alittle..hi on both ends and near flat in center...


----------



## taibanl

slinger1 said:


> For the people that are happy with their MS8 how much EQ are you using after auto tune..? My EQ curve looks like a U with the arms bent down alittle..hi on both ends and near flat in center...


Very similar. Some boost in very lows and some boost above 3k


----------



## naiku

Fixed my missing sub bass problem, not sure exactly what the issue was. I re-ran set up and crossed the fronts at 75hz, the bass now is awesome. I like to test my sub using Kanye West - Monster, it sounds excellent. I half wonder if my positioning was off when doing the measurements. Typically I have to move the drivers seat forward a bunch if my kids are in the back, I am wondering if I simply had it too far forward or something. 



slinger1 said:


> For the people that are happy with their MS8 how much EQ are you using after auto tune..? My EQ curve looks like a U with the arms bent down alittle..hi on both ends and near flat in center...


At the moment, none. I _may _be able to make it sound a little better, but I am really very happy with how mine sounds. It literally makes it sound like there are speakers all over my dash. I only wish that when Audi decided it was a good idea to add a center speaker to the A4, that someone had said a 2" speaker was no good and to make room for something larger. It would be nice to fit something bigger in the stock location, but for what I have in there it does a great job. Very happy with my MS8 so far.


----------



## duro78

subwoofery said:


> Yep... Should've left to what worked
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1287479-post4965.html
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1286907-post4942.html
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1286789-post4930.html
> 
> Kelvin


Thanks for taking the time to post the threads. Wish I found it before I went through the trouble of mounting in the pillars. Thanks again Kelvin.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## slinger1

Ok new best settings......mids and hi's sounded really good already but my lo bass was kinda "loose" ....after going back thru what seemed like 2000 posts i saw something about reversing the phase on subs...after i did it seemed to "tighten" up nicely....i also turned the HP filter on my HU to 125hz and that made a real differance in overall SQ...

MS-8 volume @ -50

SUB =2
SS =20hz/24db
SUB/FRONT-80hz/24db
FRONT (HI)- 3500hz/24db
SIDES - 100hz/24db

using all 8 channels....i have 7-8 going to my mono sub amp..

after cal. i set MS8 to -20 and use HU volume....

Sounds great with L7 on or off..when its off there seems to be more sound coming from rear speakers...i only did drivers seat cal.... with L7 on stage is centered perfectly on the dash...only thing im starting to not like about the MS8 is its too easy to change stuff and i cant quit dickn' with it....


----------



## kaigoss69

slinger1 said:


> Ok new best settings......mids and hi's sounded really good already but my lo bass was kinda "loose" ....after going back thru what seemed like 2000 posts i saw something about reversing the phase on subs...after i did it seemed to "tighten" up nicely....i also turned the HP filter on my HU to 125hz and that made a real differance in overall SQ...
> 
> MS-8 volume @ -50
> 
> SUB =2
> SS =20hz/24db
> SUB/FRONT-80hz/24db
> FRONT (HI)- 3500hz/24db
> SIDES - 100hz/24db
> 
> using all 8 channels....i have 7-8 going to my mono sub amp..
> 
> after cal. i set MS8 to -20 and use HU volume....
> 
> Sounds great with L7 on or off..when its off there seems to be more sound coming from rear speakers...i only did drivers seat cal.... with L7 on stage is centered perfectly on the dash...only thing im starting to not like about the MS8 is its too easy to change stuff and i cant quit dickn' with it....


I would suggest you "dick around" jsut a little more... 

- Turn off HU filter(s)
- Set MS-8 volume to -6dB for normal listening


----------



## jbradle7

naiku said:


> At the moment, none. I _may _be able to make it sound a little better, but I am really very happy with how mine sounds. It literally makes it sound like there are speakers all over my dash. I only wish that when Audi decided it was a good idea to add a center speaker to the A4, that someone had said a 2" speaker was no good and to make room for something larger. It would be nice to fit something bigger in the stock location, but for what I have in there it does a great job. Very happy with my MS8 so far.


What year is your A4, do you have B&O or Concert? A have a 2010 with concert audio and I'm still trying to dial everything in. You're not kidding about that center speaker... I'm currently running a Vifa 2" full-range crossed at 500hz. I probably could have got a 2.5" in there but I didn't want to fight with it for minimal (if any?) gain.


----------



## slinger1

kaigoss69 said:


> I would suggest you "dick around" jsut a little more...
> 
> - Turn off HU filter(s)
> - Set MS-8 volume to -6dB for normal listening


the filter is off during setup but seems to clean up the sound after cal. is done.....

i tryed the -6db for normal listining....the manual says thats the setting to use if your gunna unplug the monitor after setup....at -6db on MS8 i could only turn HU volume up to around 10 before its too loud...at -20 i have more headroom on the HU volume....some recordings are weaker..so then i bump up the MS8 as needed.......


----------



## aviator79

Ya, I have nothing coming from subs either. Will have to run calibration again.


----------



## thomasluke

Has anyone else noticed a loss in overall volume? I sure have.
have now i have the mids ands tweet on an alpine 4 channel with 50 watts going to both. 
When i first set up i used the ms8's amp for the tweets and just changed it today.
While everything sounds great its just not loud enough. 
I have sound deadned with mlv and the whole nine but my 12 year old avenger just isnt ever going to be really quite while driving 75 on the highway. 
When ever i do try and and really get on it my mids start to move kinda weird. then shortly after that here comes the distotion. Is this the digital clipping andy spoke of awhile back and will fix its self once i get more power to the mids or is something else going on here?


----------



## Salami

thomasluke said:


> Has anyone else noticed a loss in overall volume?


I have at times. What volume is the MS-8 at when you run the sweeps?


----------



## thomasluke

Salami said:


> I have at times. What volume is the MS-8 at when you run the sweeps?


From -30 to -40. Some give me more volume than other but the mids still start to freak. On this one rap song that has a really good left to right kick drum sweep the dudes like whooooo whoooo kinda intense right in the middle of it and earlier i really thought i f'ed something up cause of the way his voice crackled. 
Made me hit the damn ign switch.... quick.


----------



## slinger1

i do mine at -50...seems to be my sweet spot.....the sweeps are really low in volume..after tune i usually set ms8 at -20 and have plenty volume....make sure your amp gain is set around 2v also......


----------



## duro78

I have it all the time, the movements of the mids don't coincide with the signal. Its the equivalent of a person dancing wayyyy off beat. I have volume issues also. I do sweeps from 20-30, my hu (9887) can be on 30 and the volume is still low. Ms8 maxed out 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## smokie700

So i just purchased this unit a couple weeks ago. I had a local shop install the ms8 into a 2012 f150 raptor with sync and nav, they do not have any previous install experience with the MS-8. We have had nothing but problems here. Turn on pops. Turn off pops. Popping driving down the road. Just strange things happening every other time i start the truck. 


I currently have all my door speakers and sub running off of a JL 900/5 amp. I do not have the specific wiring diagram of the install but was hoping for some help. I do know that it goes from HU > Factory Amp > MS- 8 > JL amp

Are these common issues? what are the fixes? I have searched but a lot of info gets cluttered in a multi-hundred page thread. Thanks for any help in advance.


----------



## naiku

jbradle7 said:


> What year is your A4, do you have B&O or Concert? A have a 2010 with concert audio and I'm still trying to dial everything in. You're not kidding about that center speaker... I'm currently running a Vifa 2" full-range crossed at 500hz. I probably could have got a 2.5" in there but I didn't want to fight with it for minimal (if any?) gain.


Mine is a 2006, originally had the Bose system with the Symphony II head unit. My main problem with the center was that the opening was only about an inch wide. It's about 3" long, but due to how narrow it is I just could not get a 3" Aura to fit. Returned that and am waiting on a 2" replacement. How does the Vifa sound? and can you let me know the model number? 



thomasluke said:


> Has anyone else noticed a loss in overall volume?


I did as well, it actually does not bother me all that much though for daily listening as I rarely crank it. I might run the sweeps a little lower though on the MS8 (maybe around -45 or so) and see what that does. While I don't have it up loud often, its nice to be able to do so.


----------



## kaigoss69

slinger1 said:


> the filter is off during setup but seems to clean up the sound after cal. is done.....
> 
> i tryed the -6db for normal listining....the manual says thats the setting to use if your gunna unplug the monitor after setup....at -6db on MS8 i could only turn HU volume up to around 10 before its too loud...at -20 i have more headroom on the HU volume....some recordings are weaker..so then i bump up the MS8 as needed.......


Then your amp gains are too high.


----------



## slinger1

kaigoss69 said:


> Then your amp gains are too high.


Thanks Kaigoss

I never have measured them i just tried to match the volume levels of the test noise when doing the channel varify before tuning..I have a Oscope but not sure how set it up...My son should be here this weekend and he should be able to hook me up....I do have too much volume right now...My brother has a portable db meter (dont know how acurate) that i hit 132 db on with some Aunt Banks rap song and still sounded good...He has 2 12s in his Taho and only does 128db but his sounds like its gunna blow something...I really dont listen that loud usually but still like to sometimes..I will check my gains...Thanks again for advise..


----------



## dowheelies

smokie700 said:


> So i just purchased this unit a couple weeks ago. I had a local shop install the ms8 into a 2012 f150 raptor with sync and nav, they do not have any previous install experience with the MS-8. We have had nothing but problems here. Turn on pops. Turn off pops. Popping driving down the road. Just strange things happening every other time i start the truck.
> 
> 
> I currently have all my door speakers and sub running off of a JL 900/5 amp. I do not have the specific wiring diagram of the install but was hoping for some help. I do know that it goes from HU > Factory Amp > MS- 8 > JL amp
> 
> Are these common issues? what are the fixes? I have searched but a lot of info gets cluttered in a multi-hundred page thread. Thanks for any help in advance.


I have yet to install my MS-8 as of yet but my install should be pretty similar to yours in my 2011 F250 KR.

First off you are going to find out specifically how they wired the MS-8 inputs and the remote turn on path to diagnose the issues.

The MS-8 should be getting its remote signal from the fatory headunit and inturn the MS-8 should be turning on your amp. This may be the simple thump issue if they split the turn on signal from the headunit and went to both the MS-8 and the JL amp.

Also check to see if the used the factory sub signal to feed the MS-8. If they did it must be run to input 7&8. It shouldn't be needed as I'm told the front L&R outputs are full range.

I have concerns about the audio muting that happens for nav, bluetooth phone use, low fuel warnings, audio mute for seatbelt etc. This thing is constantly messing with something on the audio output. I really want to keep the factory radio but I hope it doesn't become an issue in my upcoming install.

Good luck tracking down your issues and please provide updates to your progress.

Eric


----------



## jbradle7

naiku said:


> Mine is a 2006, originally had the Bose system with the Symphony II head unit. My main problem with the center was that the opening was only about an inch wide. It's about 3" long, but due to how narrow it is I just could not get a 3" Aura to fit. Returned that and am waiting on a 2" replacement. How does the Vifa sound? and can you let me know the model number?


NE65W-04
Vifa NE65W-04 2" Full Range Woofer 264-1046
I think it sounds great, I initially had it crossed at 100hz (didn't know any better) and it handled it fine... I could actually feel that little speaker bumping. I quickly realized though that having it crossed so low was pulling a lot of mids out of my door speakers and left the front feeling like it was really lacking any mid-bass punch. I'm still experimenting, but feel like for my application (running off the MS-8 amp) it is happiest between 400-600hz.


----------



## nineball

naiku said:


> Mine is a 2006, originally had the Bose system with the Symphony II head unit. My main problem with the center was that the opening was only about an inch wide. It's about 3" long, but due to how narrow it is I just could not get a 3" Aura to fit. Returned that and am waiting on a 2" replacement. How does the Vifa sound? and can you let me know the model number?





jbradle7 said:


> NE65W-04
> Vifa NE65W-04 2" Full Range Woofer 264-1046
> I think it sounds great, I initially had it crossed at 100hz (didn't know any better) and it handled it fine... I could actually feel that little speaker bumping. I quickly realized though that having it crossed so low was pulling a lot of mids out of my door speakers and left the front feeling like it was really lacking any mid-bass punch. I'm still experimenting, but feel like for my application (running off the MS-8 amp) it is happiest between 400-600hz.


it's been said many times in this thread - your center channel should be on par with your front stage. if you are running 2" mids in your doors/kicks then it is fine as a center channel. if you are running 6.5" getting ~100rms (or any size bigger speaker with more power) then a 2" center getting ~20rms is not the way to go.


----------



## jbradle7

nineball said:


> it's been said many times in this thread - your center channel should be on par with your front stage. if you are running 2" mids in your doors/kicks then it is fine as a center channel. if you are running 6.5" getting ~100rms (or any size bigger speaker with more power) then a 2" center getting ~20rms is not the way to go.


Understand, but I'm trying to work with what Audi gave me. Do you recommend not using any center at all or putting 2" speakers in my doors... I'm being a smart-arss, but not really? I'm not cutting into my dash, we can rule that out as an option.

Like I said, I'm still trying to figure out what works in this car. And yes I'm a novice so I'll take any helpful advise you have. I try to read all the posts on this thread, but some are over my head or not applicable to my application so I may have missed some good info buried in the weeds.

Thanks in advance!
J


----------



## nineball

you can use whatever you wish however if you cannot match the center to the front stage it's probably better to not use a center and turn off logic7.


----------



## subwoofery

jbradle7 said:


> Understand, but I'm trying to work with what Audi gave me. Do you recommend not using any center at all or putting 2" speakers in my doors... I'm being a smart-arss, but not really? I'm not cutting into my dash, we can rule that out as an option.
> 
> Like I said, I'm still trying to figure out what works in this car. And yes I'm a novice so I'll take any helpful advise you have. I try to read all the posts on this thread, but some are over my head or not applicable to my application so I may have missed some good info buried in the weeds.
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> J


If you want to use a 2" on your dash, put your side midbass in the kick panels to equalize path length difference. 
Want to use your doors for your midbasses? Don't use a center channel... 

Kelvin


----------



## kaigoss69

I'm not sure I agree. It is still better to have a 2" center than no center at all. In this case the center needs to be highpassed higher than the door mids, say 400Hz compared to 100Hz, and all the center frequencies below 400Hz will then be created by the door mids (phantom center), while everything above 400Hz will benefit from the physical center. In other words, without the center the door speakers will need to create a 100% phantom center, while with the small center they only do it below the highpass frequency (400Hz), and everything above will be 100% actual center, which is better than phantom center, capiche?


----------



## naiku

nineball said:


> it's been said many times in this thread - your center channel should be on par with your front stage. if you are running 2" mids in your doors/kicks then it is fine as a center channel. if you are running 6.5" getting ~100rms (or any size bigger speaker with more power) then a 2" center getting ~20rms is not the way to go.


Yep, read that many times, but as with jbradle its not possible to get anything larger in the Audi stock location. I have read a bunch of posts about getting as large a center as possible. But, with the size opening Audi provided its just not possible. What sucks is I have depth, and enough space that I could probably fit a 3.5", but the way the opening is above the speaker, its impossible to put it in there.



jbradle7 said:


> Understand, but I'm trying to work with what Audi gave me. Do you recommend not using any center at all or putting 2" speakers in my doors... I'm being a smart-arss, but not really? I'm not cutting into my dash, we can rule that out as an option.


I would not have minded minimal cutting of my dash, as long as it would be covered by the stock grill, but Audi thwarted me there, but also positioning the light sensor in the middle of the speaker grill. 



kaigoss69 said:


> I'm not sure I agree. It is still better to have a 2" center than no center at all. In this case the center needs to be highpassed higher than the door mids, say 400Hz compared to 100Hz, and all the center frequencies below 400Hz will then be created by the door mids (phantom center), while everything above 400Hz will benefit from the physical center. In other words, without the center the door speakers will need to create a 100% phantom center, while with the small center they only do it below the highpass frequency (400Hz), and everything above will be 100% actual center, which is better than phantom center, capiche?


Yep, and even with currently the stock speaker as the center, it sounds good. Maybe not perfect, but at least to me, it does sound good. I am sure with an aftermarket speaker in there, and further tweaking I can improve upon it some more.


----------



## subwoofery

Read those posts and why it is suggested to minimize PLD for your midbasses: 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1002963-post2151.html - last part of the post is what concerns you... 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1489247-post115.html 

Kelvin


----------



## jbradle7

subwoofery said:


> Read those posts and why it is suggested to minimize PLD for your midbasses:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1002963-post2151.html - last part of the post is what concerns you...
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1489247-post115.html
> 
> Kelvin


Thanks! I'll read into this more tonight and then hopefully do more tweaking over the weekend.


----------



## naiku

subwoofery said:


> Read those posts and why it is suggested to minimize PLD for your midbasses:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1002963-post2151.html - last part of the post is what concerns you...
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1489247-post115.html
> 
> Kelvin


I read the first of those posts before, but now that I have had mine running for a couple weeks, this part:

"If you can't do either, the car will still sound great, but the image for center-steered midbass sounds will be larger than it should be and will be biased a little bit to the side on which you sit. Not such a big deal."

Is very true, I noticed it yesterday that things sounded shifted a little to the drivers side. It does not sound bad, just slightly noticeable that its shifted over.


----------



## dowheelies

Kelvin thanks for the first link, as much as I have followed, searched and reread this thread and others I somehow missed that post. Not sure how since its only 307 pages LOL...

The following point still has me unsure about my planned setup

"4. Front steering works perfectly for all frequencies that the center channel will play and pathlengths don't matter much. For midbass frequencies that the left and right will play but the center channel won't, pathlengths are critical. A phantom center has to be generated for those sounds. If your center channel is a 3" and you have big-ass 8" speakers for right and left mounted in your doors, there's gonna be trouble."

I have made the kicks to hold the 4" mids and plan to put a matching 4" and tweeter in for the center. They will play from ~250HZ and up. I've made baffles for both the 6.5" and 8" mid-bass (going to try the 6.5 MB Premiums and Kicker SSMB8's)to be mounted in the factory door position (about midway up on the front of the door on an F250).

In reading Andy's post makes me believe I've gone and equalized the path length of the wrong set of drivers and unless I somehow get a larger mid in the center the results are going to be less than favorable. Will this be so even if the LRC 4" tweeter combo are the same drivers, receiving the same power running 250hz on up?

I'm under the impression that under 250HZ our perception of imaging sensitivity is pretty minimal in terms of PLD's. Am I correct that ~500-5000 are the area's of concern or am I in left field here?

Eric


----------



## duro78

Will adding a cap to a tweeter ruin my imaging? Through the jet engine noise the ms8 always blew my drivers side tweet so I added a cap inline. I only put it on that side for now because I'm still playing around with my install. Its safe to say thats whats ruining my stage correct? its a 4.7uf 8 ohm lpg26. No matter what I do I can always locate that tweeter now. Im a complete with adding caps. I thought it kept the crossover point above the the point that was chosen depending on the cap. Ive never set the co below the caps capability. Can someone give a brief explanation.


----------



## t3sn4f2

duro78 said:


> Will adding a cap to a tweeter ruin my imaging? Through the jet engine noise the ms8 always blew my drivers side tweet so I added a cap inline. I only put it on that side for now because I'm still playing around with my install. Its safe to say thats whats ruining my stage correct? its a 4.7uf 8 ohm lpg26. No matter what I do I can always locate that tweeter now. Im a complete with adding caps. I thought it kept the crossover point above the the point that was chosen depending on the cap. Ive never set the co below the caps capability. Can someone give a brief explanation.


That puts a 4.2kHz highpass on the tweeter. What do you have the ms8 highpass for it set to?


----------



## duro78

t3sn4f2 said:


> That puts a 4.2kHz highpass on the tweeter. What do you have the ms8 highpass for it set to?


I was setting it anywhere from 4200 - 5500. I changed my tweets back to the sails from the pillars and I cant get that dead center image I had before. Ive been messing with it for a couple days. The only thing different is the addition of the cap. So inorder for both tweets to play in unison the Co would have be at 4200 correct? I must admit most of my testing was done above 4200 and the image was drawn to the drivers side tweet( wt cap). 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## t3sn4f2

duro78 said:


> I was setting it anywhere from 4200 - 5500. I changed my tweets back to the sails from the pillars and I cant get that dead center image I had before. Ive been messing with it for a couple days. The only thing different is the addition of the cap. So inorder for both tweets to play in unison the Co would have be at 4200 correct? I must admit most of my testing was done above 4200 and the image was drawn to the drivers side tweet( wt cap).
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


No, you don't want the effective crossover frequency of the cap to be anywhere near the intended crossover frequency you are going to use with the MS-8. The cap's purpose is to protect the tweeter from an unusual low frequency signal like an amp turn on/off thump or in your case, the lower higher energy frequencies that the ms-8's jet noise might contain.


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## duro78

t3sn4f2 said:


> No, you don't want the effective crossover frequency of the cap to be anywhere near the intended crossover frequency you are going to use with the MS-8. The cap's purpose is to protect the tweeter from an unusual low frequency signal like an amp turn on/off thump or in your case, the lower higher energy frequencies that the ms-8's jet noise might contain.


OK that makes sense. Does a cap offer a 6db difference because during sweeps the capped tweet was audibly louder than the other. Would it make sense that even if I chose a point above 4200 the image would be drawn to the capped tweeter. Either caused by the volume difference during sweeps or by the cap itself. Thanks for your time

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## duro78

duro78 said:


> OK that makes sense. Does a cap offer a 6db difference because during sweeps the capped tweet was audibly louder than the other. Would it make sense that even if I chose a point above 4200 the image would be drawn to the capped tweeter. Either caused by the volume difference during sweeps or by the cap itself. Thanks for your time
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Passenger side wire was pinched that's why I why the output was so low

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## t3sn4f2

duro78 said:


> Passenger side wire was pinched that's why I why the output was so low
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Still going to want to upgrade that cap though. To at least 20uF (ie 1kHz for that tweeters nominal impedance).


----------



## duro78

t3sn4f2 said:


> Still going to want to upgrade that cap though. To at least 20uF (ie 1kHz for that tweeters nominal impedance).


Would a cap be better than using the light bulb method? I've been able to shut the car down right before the jet sound started and it still blew the tweeter. I could be wrong but I think its a DC current killing the drivers not the intense sound.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Hdale85

I believe a cap filters DC current.


----------



## duro78

Hdale85 said:


> I believe a cap filters DC current.


My knowledge of caps is very basic. Any opinions which would offer more protection? I guess they both basically do the same thing just at different power levels

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## gasongasoff

A series capacitor will act as a 6dB/octave high-pass filter. DC is also completely filtered (well just enough electrons to charge the capacitor). 

There are lots of calculators online that let you plug in impedance, frequency, and/or capacitance. Just google "crossover calculator."

A few tips:
- you should look at the impedance vs. freq chart for your driver to see what the impedance is as the desired crossover frequency ("nominal" or DC resistance is probably not sufficient, esp if you're near the resonance freq).
- shoot for a crossover frequency at least an octave below your actual crossover frequency
- I would suggest redoing the MS-8 acoustic calibration after adding a cap, as it will change the freq response of your system slightly (depending on where you added the additional 6db/oct rolloff)
- a series cap should reduce the risk of high output broadband noise (like an Airplane Noise of Death) or an amp thump causing damage to tweeters with active-only crossovers because it attenuates the amount of lower-frequency (harmful) power that the tweeter effectively sees. But it's still possible to blow the tweeter if it is overdriven.


----------



## duro78

gasongasoff said:


> A series capacitor will act as a 6dB/octave high-pass filter. DC is also completely filtered (well just enough electrons to charge the capacitor).
> 
> There are lots of calculators online that let you plug in impedance, frequency, and/or capacitance. Just google "crossover calculator."
> 
> A few tips:
> - you should look at the impedance vs. freq chart for your driver to see what the impedance is as the desired crossover frequency ("nominal" or DC resistance is probably not sufficient, esp if you're near the resonance freq).
> - shoot for a crossover frequency at least an octave below your actual crossover frequency
> - I would suggest redoing the MS-8 acoustic calibration after adding a cap, as it will change the freq response of your system slightly (depending on where you added the additional 6db/oct rolloff)
> - a series cap should reduce the risk of high output broadband noise (like an Airplane Noise of Death) or an amp thump causing damage to tweeters with active-only crossovers because it attenuates the amount of lower-frequency (harmful) power that the tweeter effectively sees. But it's still possible to blow the tweeter if it is overdriven.


Thank you for the info. Before purchasing the cap I did the necessary research but was experiencing some issues with my imaging, it wasn't remotely close. I thought it was the cap causing the problem since it was the only new thing introduced to the chain. Instead of being centered it was coming from the drivers pillar. I checked and rechecked every driver was in phase but had the same results. During sweeps the output was less than half on the non capped tweet so I thought the cap was causing the problem. It turns out the passenger side tweeter wire was pinched and that led to the almost diminished output, which in turn steered the image away from the center. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## jbradle7

jbradle7 said:


> GD I feel stupid... I just realized I have my sub inputs connected to 3/4 not 7/8.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the manual:
> "You can connect the factory front speaker outputs to any MS-8 Hi Level inputs, but factory stereo or amplifier subwoofer outputs MUST be connected ONLY to the MS-8’s channel 7 and/or 8 inputs. During the calibration/setup process, the MS-8 will “normalize” the input signals and derive as many output signals as your speaker system requires."
> 
> I'm assuming this is because channels 7/8 are designed to handle the higher power of the factory sub output? There is no mention as to what will occur if the sub inputs are not connected to 7/8, maybe Andy will chime in here. My system sounds pretty good as-is but I will be correcting this ASAP so I don't do any damage to my MS-8.
> 
> Has anyone experienced problems due to similar connecting stupidity?


I'd like to fix my sub inputs without having to open my harness up or cut any wires.
Can someone please tell me the easiest/best way to remove the female pins from the MS-8 connectors without doing any damage to the wire or connector.


----------



## jbradle7

OK, never mind. Got them removed using two staples bent into an L-shape... gotta love Google.

*Update*
Just got a note from Andy regarding the sub inputs going to channels 7/8
"So long as you have an input connected to channels 1 and or 2 that includes high frequency, there's no need to change. MS-8 polls the inputs starting at channel 1 for unEQ and it has to see a high frequency channel before it sees a low frequency channel. I wrote the owner's manual to indicate that sub should be connected to 7 or 8 because that seemed like a more straighforward way to explain."

So turns out I didn't need to change my connections. Oh well, at least in the process of changing my input connections I figured out how to remove the extra pins/leads I wasn't using.


----------



## aviator79

Subs are still only at like 1% no matter what I try...


----------



## slinger1

I had same trouble at first....Did you try to turn down gain on amp for your subs where when you do the sweeps you can barely hear it? That should cause the MS8 to boost those freqs...The other speakers test sweeps are like someone whispering softly..


----------



## SSSnake

aviator79 said:


> Subs are still only at like 1% no matter what I try...


Check your midbass response around the sub to midbass Xover. If the midbass isn't playing well at the cut off freq the MS8 will attenuate the sub to blend the sound properly.


----------



## duro78

God damn the ms8 can do what I never would be able to. Its amazing how well it manipulates the signal- vocals dead center , chorus behind and to the side of the vocalist , raised my mids/mid bass from the door and kicks to listening level. Just amazing how it can make $250 of raw drivers sound so good. Better than setups with components that cost a lot more. Just gives me chills. Seems like I'm always knocking the ms8 but other than the minor hiccups its well worth the coin.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## 14642

^^ Cool.

Also, the valu of the cap in the previous discussion isn't critical. Just choose a value outside the band of frequencies you want the tweeter to play. If you're using a 1" (or so) dome, use a 20uF. If you're using a smaller one, move closer to 10uF.


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## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ^^ Cool.
> 
> Also, the valu of the cap in the previous discussion isn't critical. Just choose a value outside the band of frequencies you want the tweeter to play. If you're using a 1" (or so) dome, use a 20uF. If you're using a smaller one, move closer to 10uF.


Andy, if the tweeters are 8 ohms, does that then double the figures you recommend? And at that point, since the price start to get up there, should we look at impedance graph for intended bandwidth more closely so can we tailor cap value more specifically?


----------



## aviator79

thomasluke said:


> Low/mid start with 400 and work your down untill the driver sounds stressed at high volume.
> Mid/high start with 2500 and work your way up untill you like the sound.


Used this, went to 490 and 2600 I think. Sub is set at default settings.



slinger1 said:


> I had same trouble at first....Did you try to turn down gain on amp for your subs where when you do the sweeps you can barely hear it? That should cause the MS8 to boost those freqs...The other speakers test sweeps are like someone whispering softly..


Have the sub amp at min, midbase amp tried all the way down to min...no difference



SSSnake said:


> Check your midbass response around the sub to midbass Xover. If the midbass isn't playing well at the cut off freq the MS8 will attenuate the sub to blend the sound properly.


Ive no idea how to do any of that.


Im going to go cover the mics with my hands when the sub sweeps come thru but Im sure thats no going to work. I have mid and tweets very low. Dyns will sound decent but no matter what I do I cannot get anything from the subs. The only time I hear them is during sweeps and its not loud as I said I have the gain on min.


----------



## Amerd

Little off topic but I have searched and search and no problems arise like mine ... Pink noise ! I have a 06 Lexus IS350 , factory amplified system ( not Mark Levinson) I'm running Focal Krx3 active off of a Phoenix Gold ZX950 . Input from the MS-8 it running off of the factory pioneer amplifier . I've tried setting the MS-8 many different ways with the same result ?? When I do the calibration I hear none , it comes back after I finalize the setup .


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## kaigoss69

Amerd said:


> Little off topic but I have searched and search and no problems arise like mine ... Pink noise ! I have a 06 Lexus IS350 , factory amplified system ( not Mark Levinson) I'm running Focal Krx3 active off of a Phoenix Gold ZX950 . Input from the MS-8 it running off of the factory pioneer amplifier . I've tried setting the MS-8 many different ways with the same result ?? When I do the calibration I hear none , it comes back after I finalize the setup .


Please CLEARLY state your problem!


----------



## duro78

Is anyone experiencing a dead remote. I have two remotes that have both died within two days. Checked both batteries with a dimm and their good. Before I had to have the remote within 5 inches to work but now I have absolutely nothing and I tried reseating the battery but to no avail

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## naiku

duro78 said:


> Is anyone experiencing a dead remote. I have two remotes that have both died within two days. Checked both batteries with a dimm and their good. Before I had to have the remote within 5 inches to work but now I have absolutely nothing and I tried reseating the battery but to no avail


My remote can be picky, sometimes I literally have to hold it 2" from the display for it to work. Less than a month old, not tried changing the battery or anything though.


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## Se7en

naiku said:


> My remote can be picky, sometimes I literally have to hold it 2" from the display for it to work. Less than a month old, not tried changing the battery or anything though.


Just a data point. The remote does not work directly with the display, it does control the main box though.


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## t3sn4f2

Se7en said:


> Just a data point. The remote does not work directly with the display, it does control the main box though.


Just to be clear, are you saying the RF sensor for the receiving end is not located in the display itself?


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## duro78

naiku said:


> My remote can be picky, sometimes I literally have to hold it 2" from the display for it to work. Less than a month old, not tried changing the battery or anything though.


I've only been able to get it to work at about 5 inches or less and I've had 3 units. That's why I've never mounted the display. Ive had the same problem as you experiencing intermittent failure. Ill try a new battery maybe it fails under a certain voltage.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Se7en

t3sn4f2 said:


> Just to be clear, are you saying the RF sensor for the receiving end is not located in the display itself?


That is correct. As I understand it, the display is a display only, and not a controller.


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## duro78

Se7en said:


> That is correct.


I'm not doubting you but why are my entries so dependent on the distance between the remote and display then? No matter where press the remote in the vehicle it has to be in very close proximity to the display. I can press the button a matter of 2.5 feet from the ms8 and get nothing and its not till I put the remote inches from the display will it register. Also based on where the unit will be mounted in a vehicle it would seem unlikely an rf signal would make it to the unit. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## t3sn4f2

duro78 said:


> I'm not doubting you but why are my entries so dependent on the distance between the remote and display then? No matter where press the remote in the vehicle it has to be in very close proximity to the display. I can press the button a matter of 2.5 feet from the ms8 and get nothing and its not till I put the remote inches from the display will it register. Also based on where the unit will be mounted in a vehicle it would seem unlikely an rf signal would make it to the unit.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


High frequencies are mysterious biatches. Try moving the display and see if the same trend follows.


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## duro78

t3sn4f2 said:


> High frequencies are mysterious biatches. Try moving the display and see if the same trend follows.


That's the thing since I've had the ms8 I never mounted the display because of this reason. I have to constantly manipulate the remote and display inorder for it to work. If I mounted the display on the dash or anywhere for that matter I would have to hold the remote up to it for it to work. I just looked at a spare ms8 I have and I see the RF eye on it but this just isn't conducive with what I've been experiencing and others also. Idk it just doesn't make sense that we have to hold the remote up to the display inorder for it to receive a signal when the RF eye is on the ms8 itself. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## t3sn4f2

Looks like the RF receiver is infact _in_ the display assembly. Start looking for other reasons for the problem.


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## Se7en

t3sn4f2 said:


> Looks like the RF receiver is infact _in_ the display assembly. Start looking for other reasons for the problem.


Crap.. My apologies.


----------



## duro78

Se7en said:


> Crap.. My apologies.


i went out in the cold at 6am to test your info lol. Based on my experience it didnt add up but based on your track record of providing useful info I beleived you anyway lol. Easy mistake considering the unit has a rf eye. I wonder what the eye on the unit itself is for then.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## duro78

t3sn4f2 said:


> Looks like the RF receiver is infact _in_ the display assembly. Start looking for other reasons for the problem.


Thanks for the info. I wonder what's responsible for the weak transmitting signal.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## toolsong

duro78 said:


> Thanks for the info. I wonder what's responsible for the weak transmitting signal.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Maybe it's a weak/faulty receiver inside the display?

Try a 30 second display swap with someone local or your nearest friendly store and see if the issue follows the display unit


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## duro78

toolsong said:


> Maybe it's a weak/faulty receiver inside the display?
> 
> Try a 30 second display swap with someone local or your nearest friendly store and see if the issue follows the display unit


I actually have a spare ms8, swapped displays and same thing. I've had a few ms8's and the remote always had to be in very close proximity to the display. The failed remotes started working again this morning but Im pretty sure both issues are related

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## kaigoss69

duro78 said:


> I actually have a spare ms8, swapped displays and same thing. I've had a few ms8's and the remote always had to be in very close proximity to the display. The failed remotes started working again this morning but Im pretty sure both issues are related
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Ever consider RF interference? I recently had a new garage door opener installed. The remotes were not working at all from the outside. I called them and raised hell, only to find out (after a lot of testing) that the power supply of a monitor in the bonus room above the garage was interfering with the remote's frequency band. Perhaps there is something electrical in your car interfering with the MS-8's remote frequency???


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## strakele

Sounds weird, but how cold is it where you guys are? My MS-8 remote generally had good range and quick response, but when it got cold, it got really sucky. After the car heater had time to do its thing, it'd be back to normal. It simply didn't like the cold.


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## duro78

kaigoss69 said:


> Ever consider RF interference? I recently had a new garage door opener installed. The remotes were not working at all from the outside. I called them and raised hell, only to find out (after a lot of testing) that the power supply of a monitor in the bonus room above the garage was interfering with the remote's frequency band. Perhaps there is something electrical in your car interfering with the MS-8's remote frequency???


That's a possibility, I have an opener in the car and a key pad mounted on the wall, my car is about 10 ft from it. Theres two bedrooms above the garage which have tvs and the usual setups. I just realized my verizon fios is mounted on my garage wall and is about 10ft from my car when im tinkering. It seems a lot of people have to hold the remote pretty close to the display so its not like its an isolated incident. Ill start trying different things but since so many people were experiencing it I always thought that's the way it was like the jet noise some got it some didn't. Like I said ill start trying to diagnose it and maybe it can help someone else. Plus id rather have a mounted display instead of having to rest it on the seats. Thanks I never considered that as a possibility.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## duro78

strakele said:


> Sounds weird, but how cold is it where you guys are? My MS-8 remote generally had good range and quick response, but when it got cold, it got really sucky. After the car heater had time to do its thing, it'd be back to normal. It simply didn't like the cold.


I'm in NY and although we're having a very mild winter most of my tinkering is done at night when the temps are at their lowest with the car off. Its usually in the thirties at night around here. The unit is in a car that I only use for local trips so by the time I get where I'm going the car just warmed up and since I'm wearing a winter coat I rarely turn the heat on. I'm forced to leave the display dangling because I keep it on my lap while making adjustments and on the passenger seat the rest of the time. My arm would be dead if I had to hold it up to a dash mounted display. I'm gonna leave the car running with the heat on and see what happens. Thanks because that never crossed my mind.

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## stefanhinote

Hoping maybe someone else has ran into this, or has some tips:

I've been using an ms8 in a two-way setup for months with no noise issues. I recently changed to a three-way setup + sub, and have done a bit of tuning with the xo points slopes, etc. It took me a while to notice, but there's pink noise in the background.

Car off, stereo on, no music playing: pink noise mainly coming from the right channels.

Changing the volume on the headunit has zero effect, even at volume 0.

Generally I have the volume on ms8 set around -12, and use the head unit volume adjustment.

If I change the volume on the ms8 from -12 to -80, it doesn't sound any different.

If I change the volume on the ms8 from ~ -12 to 00, the right channels have about the same amount of pink noise, but the left channels' pink noise rises.

If I press mute on the ms8 remote, the pink noise goes away.

I've switched between a 3-way setup and 2-way setup for the last week, (pulling out tweets to work on a-pillars, and extending the xo point on the mids in the kicks). So 2-way or 3-way, the noise is still there.

I read somewhere about doing a factory reset after doing the "auto tune" many times. Is this simply in the menu, or do I need to push some button on the actual unit?

Tuning has always been done when the car was off. The noise is apparent regardless if the car is running or not.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Thank you


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## duro78

stefanhinote said:


> Hoping maybe someone else has ran into this, or has some tips:
> 
> I've been using an ms8 in a two-way setup for months with no noise issues. I recently changed to a three-way setup + sub, and have done a bit of tuning with the xo points slopes, etc. It took me a while to notice, but there's pink noise in the background.
> 
> Car off, stereo on, no music playing: pink noise mainly coming from the right channels.
> 
> Changing the volume on the headunit has zero effect, even at volume 0.
> 
> Generally I have the volume on ms8 set around -12, and use the head unit volume adjustment.
> 
> If I change the volume on the ms8 from -12 to -80, it doesn't sound any different.
> 
> If I change the volume on the ms8 from ~ -12 to 00, the right channels have about the same amount of pink noise, but the left channels' pink noise rises.
> 
> If I press mute on the ms8 remote, the pink noise goes away.
> 
> I've switched between a 3-way setup and 2-way setup for the last week, (pulling out tweets to work on a-pillars, and extending the xo point on the mids in the kicks). So 2-way or 3-way, the noise is still there.
> 
> I read somewhere about doing a factory reset after doing the "auto tune" many times. Is this simply in the menu, or do I need to push some button on the actual unit?
> 
> Tuning has always been done when the car was off. The noise is apparent regardless if the car is running or not.
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts?
> 
> Thank you


I noticed a low pitch hum coming from the right side today. I have little things like this come and go. As recommended from another member I do a factory reset after about five calibrations. The feedback seems to be avoided when this is done. Andy gave a technical theory which I can't remember off hand but try a reset from the display not the ms8. That along with only doing the drivers seating position has made the jet noise go away along with other unwanted noise.

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## stefanhinote

I've only used one seating position, never changed another. Haven't experienced the full on pink noise jet noise attack 

I'll try the factory reset and see if that solves it. Thanks


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## stefanhinote

Did a factory reset, didn't solve the problem.

I did however find another piece of possibly helpful information:

When I start a new auto tune, set xo points, set channels. The noise is gone. I finish the setting everything, and get to the page: "Press done, output diagnostics." Once I press ok, the noise appears, and I'm on the "Speaker config complete, "continue" page.

Weird stuff, and it's really starting to bug me.


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## duro78

stefanhinote said:


> Did a factory reset, didn't solve the problem.
> 
> I did however find another piece of possibly helpful information:
> 
> When I start a new auto tune, set xo points, set channels. The noise is gone. I finish the setting everything, and get to the page: "Press done, output diagnostics." Once I press ok, the noise appears, and I'm on the "Speaker config complete, "continue" page.
> 
> Weird stuff, and it's really starting to bug me.


That's because during calibration the ms8 doesn't emit a signal inorder to do the sweeps . Once you hit done the signal to the amp is switched back on. Try playing music before calibration it will stop when you erase the filters and return once you hit done at the end.

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## stefanhinote

duro78 said:


> That's because during calibration the ms8 doesn't emit a signal inorder to do the sweeps . Once you hit done the signal to the amp is switched back on. Try playing music before calibration it will stop when you erase the filters and return once you hit done at the end.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Can you elaborate some more for me? All the steps in the "auto tune" setup makes it confusing as to what point your referring to that I should try playing music.

If I do a factory reset, and no "auto tune", then I'm assuming no signal would be passed since the channels haven't been set up yet.


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## duro78

stefanhinote said:


> Can you elaborate some more for me? All the steps in the "auto tune" setup makes it confusing as to what point your referring to that I should try playing music.
> 
> If I do a factory reset, and no "auto tune", then I'm assuming no signal would be passed since the channels haven't been set up yet.


You were saying its weird that it comes back after you do calibration and i was explaining why. If your playing music and want to do a calibration ( skip setup screen) and it says if you continue will erase filters once you hit continue the music will stop because its starting the process. Once you go through the whole process with the sweeps and you hit done it switches back to the hu's signal. 

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## slinger1

stefanhinote said:


> Did a factory reset, didn't solve the problem.
> 
> I did however find another piece of possibly helpful information:
> 
> When I start a new auto tune, set xo points, set channels. The noise is gone. I finish the setting everything, and get to the page: "Press done, output diagnostics." Once I press ok, the noise appears, and I'm on the "Speaker config complete, "continue" page.
> 
> Weird stuff, and it's really starting to bug me.


your not talking about the mapping noise it plays after channel setup to make sure front left is front left and so on are you...?


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## stefanhinote

duro78 said:


> You were saying its weird that it comes back after you do calibration and i was explaining why. If your playing music and want to do a calibration ( skip setup screen) and it says if you continue will erase filters once you hit continue the music will stop because its starting the process. Once you go through the whole process with the sweeps and you hit done it switches back to the hu's signal.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Oh okay, yeah. I thought you were mentioning some other test or something.


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## stefanhinote

slinger1 said:


> your not talking about the mapping noise it plays after channel setup to make sure front left is front left and so on are you...?


Nope.


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## subwoofery

stefanhinote said:


> Did a factory reset, didn't solve the problem.
> 
> I did however find another piece of possibly helpful information:
> 
> When I start a new auto tune, set xo points, set channels. The noise is gone. I finish the setting everything, and get to the page: "Press done, output diagnostics." Once I press ok, the noise appears, and I'm on the "Speaker config complete, "continue" page.
> 
> Weird stuff, and it's really starting to bug me.


Your 3-way system is not levelled properly IMO. Think the MS-8 is boosting too much when calibrating. 
Try to do a level match before calibration and retry. 

Kelvin


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## Amerd

kaigoss69 said:


> Please CLEARLY state your problem!


After I posted this ,stefanhinote has pretty much summed it up . If i play the MS-8 anywhere under -15db I dont really hear it but then my audio basically has no power . I've tweeked the gains but I don't want to turn them up to high . I dunno maybe the output on the factory amp has a very minimal voltage output . I haven't gotten around to measuring it . I just didn't experience this when I was just running sh*tty line level adapters . 

One other thing .... Maybe its suppoed to do this but when adjusting the MS-8's sub output it turns up the midbass in the doors also . I've double checked to see if I had anything crossed as far as Rca 's to see if I brain farted but its all good . Sub is dedicated to ch8 . Recap : 3way set ( ch1 fl high , ch2 fr high , ch3 fl mid , ch4 fr mid , ch5 fl lo , ch6 fr lo , ch 8 sub ) Am I being too anal?


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## Amerd

After I posted this ,stefanhinote has pretty much summed it up . If i play the MS-8 anywhere under -15db I dont really hear it but then my audio basically has no power . I've tweeked the gains but I don't want to turn them up to high . I dunno maybe the output on the factory amp has a very minimal voltage output . I haven't gotten around to measuring it . I just didn't experience this when I was just running line level adapters . 

One other thing .... Maybe its suppoed to do this but when adjusting the MS-8's sub output it turns up the midbass in the doors also . I've double checked to see if I had anything crossed as far as Rca 's to see if I messed up but its all good . Sub is dedicated to ch8 . Recap : 3way set ( ch1 fl high , ch2 fr high , ch3 fl mid , ch4 fr mid , ch5 fl lo , ch6 fr lo , ch 8 sub ) Am I being too picky?


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## toolsong

Amerd said:


> One other thing .... Maybe its suppoed to do this but when adjusting the MS-8's sub output it turns up the midbass in the doors also.


Read point 5 from this post in the MS-8 FAQ thread 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1236165-post11.html


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## stefanhinote

subwoofery said:


> Your 3-way system is not levelled properly IMO. Think the MS-8 is boosting too much when calibrating.
> Try to do a level match before calibration and retry.
> 
> Kelvin


I'll try that later today and report how it goes.


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## duro78

strakele said:


> Sounds weird, but how cold is it where you guys are? My MS-8 remote generally had good range and quick response, but when it got cold, it got really sucky. After the car heater had time to do its thing, it'd be back to normal. It simply didn't like the cold.


I went out today and warmed the car up first and low and behold the remote actually has range now. It appears you were right, now I can actually mount my display. Thanks 

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## stefanhinote

Well I found my problem, and I owe an apology to the ms8.

When I switched the setup last week or so ago, I turned the gain up a tad on the amplifier, and just remembered I did that after I started testing everything else out today.

The amp didn't really induce distortion, err well it did sorta in the way that it must have just raised the noise floor level, otherwise it was simply louder.

I had to play around with the volume on the ms8 and hu to get a good in between spot.
Anyway, I lowered the gain a little bit, and all seems well.

I always overlook the simple stuff. :lol:


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## Neil_J

In case anyone missed it from another thread, I put together a Youtube video at the request of a few members that explains how to change the backlight color of your MS-8 display.


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## Hooper

Andy I am hoping you can help me a bit. I am concerned that I am not getting the full effect of the MS8. Originally I was having trouble with it sounding right, and tried many different things that have been suggested on the thread. The headroom was weak and the sub seemed to overpower, or over run the rest of the system. Mid range punch was also weak. Although the manual says to only use the front L&R inputs going into the MS8, I verified that you can in fact use front and rears and had been using them both (because my backup alarm runs through the rear inputs and I wanted to keep it). I tried many things, including running the sub separately not through the MS8. Then yesterday I eliminated the rear inputs and it sounded MUCH better. Now I understand what all the buzz is about the MS8.

Although I think I have things mostly right, the only problem left was that the headroom and overall punch of the system was still weak when peaking the system. So as you have recommended I increased the gains on the amps after the calibration. Now I am getting the volume and midrange and punch I am seeking, and the system sounds very good. But, I feel that the rear speaker action has now diminished and I think my increasing the gains on the amps may have taken the overall system out of sync. The signals coming from the rears have faded, and they are powered by the MS8 amp. The fronts and sub are powered by external amps - of which I have increased the gains after the calibration. 

here's my basic set-up:
Front 2-way components
Rear 6x9s in the rear deck
no center channel
single sub in trunk
4-channel amp powering front 2-ways (tweets on 2 channels and miss on other 2 channels)
1-channle amp for sub
rears powered by MS8 amp
all speakers and external amps JL Audio
factory Head unit

Calibration was done with sub amp gain turned all the way down, and front amp gains matched close to 2V. MS8 volume at -45 db at cal. 

So is it possible that since I am raising the gains on the external amps, yet the MS8 amp pushing the rears is staying the same, that this is why it seems to be weak in the rears now? 

Any suggestions? Thanks for whatever help you can provide...
john


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## pionkej

Hooper said:


> Andy I am hoping you can help me a bit. I am concerned that I am not getting the full effect of the MS8. Originally I was having trouble with it sounding right, and tried many different things that have been suggested on the thread. The headroom was weak and the sub seemed to overpower, or over run the rest of the system. Mid range punch was also weak. Although the manual says to only use the front L&R inputs going into the MS8, I verified that you can in fact use front and rears and had been using them both (because my backup alarm runs through the rear inputs and I wanted to keep it). I tried many things, including running the sub separately not through the MS8. Then yesterday I eliminated the rear inputs and it sounded MUCH better. Now I understand what all the buzz is about the MS8.
> 
> Although I think I have things mostly right, the only problem left was that the headroom and overall punch of the system was still weak when peaking the system. So as you have recommended I increased the gains on the amps after the calibration. Now I am getting the volume and midrange and punch I am seeking, and the system sounds very good. But, I feel that the rear speaker action has now diminished and I think my increasing the gains on the amps may have taken the overall system out of sync. The signals coming from the rears have faded, and they are powered by the MS8 amp. The fronts and sub are powered by external amps - of which I have increased the gains after the calibration.
> 
> here's my basic set-up:
> Front 2-way components
> Rear 6x9s in the rear deck
> no center channel
> single sub in trunk
> 4-channel amp powering front 2-ways (tweets on 2 channels and miss on other 2 channels)
> 1-channle amp for sub
> rears powered by MS8 amp
> all speakers and external amps JL Audio
> factory Head unit
> 
> Calibration was done with sub amp gain turned all the way down, and front amp gains matched close to 2V. MS8 volume at -45 db at cal.
> 
> So is it possible that since I am raising the gains on the external amps, yet the MS8 amp pushing the rears is staying the same, that this is why it seems to be weak in the rears now?
> 
> Any suggestions? Thanks for whatever help you can provide...
> john


Try reducing your gains to where the were when you ran the sweep, turn UP the sub gain, and re-run acoustic calibration.

The general rule is: 

*subs too strong and midbass is weak -- turn up the sub level and re-run
*subs weak with boomy midbass -- turn down sub level and re-run

The reason is because: when the sub level is too low, it boosts the subs and cuts the midbass (and you end up with what you're likely describing), when the sub level is too high, it cuts the subs and boosts the midbass (and you end up with muddy midbass and weak sub output).

If you fix it properly, it SHOULD keep the rear-fill output levels high enough to keep you happy as well. Hope that helps.


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## 14642

Hooper said:


> Andy I am hoping you can help me a bit. I am concerned that I am not getting the full effect of the MS8. Originally I was having trouble with it sounding right, and tried many different things that have been suggested on the thread. The headroom was weak and the sub seemed to overpower, or over run the rest of the system. Mid range punch was also weak. Although the manual says to only use the front L&R inputs going into the MS8, I verified that you can in fact use front and rears and had been using them both (because my backup alarm runs through the rear inputs and I wanted to keep it). I tried many things, including running the sub separately not through the MS8. Then yesterday I eliminated the rear inputs and it sounded MUCH better. Now I understand what all the buzz is about the MS8.
> 
> Although I think I have things mostly right, the only problem left was that the headroom and overall punch of the system was still weak when peaking the system. So as you have recommended I increased the gains on the amps after the calibration. Now I am getting the volume and midrange and punch I am seeking, and the system sounds very good. But, I feel that the rear speaker action has now diminished and I think my increasing the gains on the amps may have taken the overall system out of sync. The signals coming from the rears have faded, and they are powered by the MS8 amp. The fronts and sub are powered by external amps - of which I have increased the gains after the calibration.
> 
> here's my basic set-up:
> Front 2-way components
> Rear 6x9s in the rear deck
> no center channel
> single sub in trunk
> 4-channel amp powering front 2-ways (tweets on 2 channels and miss on other 2 channels)
> 1-channle amp for sub
> rears powered by MS8 amp
> all speakers and external amps JL Audio
> factory Head unit
> 
> Calibration was done with sub amp gain turned all the way down, and front amp gains matched close to 2V. MS8 volume at -45 db at cal.
> 
> So is it possible that since I am raising the gains on the external amps, yet the MS8 amp pushing the rears is staying the same, that this is why it seems to be weak in the rears now?
> 
> Any suggestions? Thanks for whatever help you can provide...
> john


Yup. Add an amp for the rear or turn off Logic7. Then, the rears will play much louder, but without Logic7 you may lose some stage width and depth.


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## duro78

I'm curious where does everyone cross there mid bass in a 3 way? I originally started in the 300-650 range which gave awesome clarity because my 3 inch mid took over but it lacked umph. Which is understandable since my mid is so small. For the hell of it I tried crossing at 950-1300 and the stage is a lot fuller but lacks the clarity I had before. Still good but obviously my rs180 isn't gonna be as clear as the TB w3. The 950 range seems to be the sweet spot. My mids are in the kicks on and off axis and MB in the doors. It seems when giving the MB the higher range the mids path is interrupted so Im not getting that same clarity. Also I'm sure the loss is due to going from a 3 inch to a 7 inch in that frequency range. So I'm curious where others cross their MB. At the higher point the MB is crazy upfront but the trade off is losing a bit of clarity.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## 14642

800-1k. depends on the size of the MB.


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## duro78

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> 800-1k. depends on the size of the MB.


Thank you sir, that seems to yeild the best results.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## acidbass303

duro78 said:


> Thank you sir, that seems to yeild the best results.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk



+1
Exactly.........


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## drpepper

I think the dash speakers in my 08 altima are connected with the door speakers to the stock radio. Should I connect the dash speakers to a different channel on the MS-8 instead of running them with the stock wiring (connected to the door speakers)? Seems like I'd have better time alignment, staging, imaging, everything.


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## kaigoss69

I just achieved the best mid bass/bass calibration results...ever! And I did it with the sub hooked up to its own channel! You may all remember the first midbass workaround I posted a while back, where I calibrated without the sub and then tied the sub back in at the amp. I did this to circumvent a problem in my car with the mid bass response after calibrating with a trunk sub in the mix. I believe the issue is caused by any of the following conditions, and is probably compounded when all exist at the same time:

1.) Trunk sub is in a small sealed enclosure (peaky response messes with MS-8 level setting)
2.) Midbass drivers are large and operate in small enclosures underneath the front seats (peaky response)
3.) There is very good sound insulation between the trunk and the cabin.

All 3 conditions apply in my car (BMW e90) and other BMW owners have reported similar problems.

While my workaround gave very good results, I had gotten the itch lately to try something new because in some (rare) cases, I was able to locate the sub behind me (not in the trunk, but behind me in the cabin). I played with crossover settings and slopes, but I was not able to get it just right.

So, I tried a new approach. My first workaround was to avoid a large peak of the sub buy completely removing it. This time, I thought I would try to reduce the peaky response by removing the sub from the trunk and temporarily placing it in.....










...the rear seat!

After calibration (and after placing the sub back in the trunk), I had feared that not much had improved over previous attempts, midbass was very weak, but sub bass was great. However, after increasing the gain on the midbass amp, I quickly realized that I had hit the jackpot. Now the sub and midbass drivers were working in total harmony to deliver gapless, chest-thumping, up-front, tight, tight, tight bass notes with absolutely zero hint of a subwoofer operating in the trunk. :rockon: 

I have to do some more critical listening but so far I really, really like it! From a set-up perspective, I did raise the midbass/sub crossover to 80Hz but I went with a 12dB/oct slope to allow for some blending. This seems to have made all the difference!


----------



## FungusBrain

I have been working on this system for weeks and still can't get it to sound right. The main problem is the distortion I get from my mids. I have tried calibrating at different levels, adjusting gains, etc. Today I tried to hook up my iPod into the MS8's Aux input, and it sounded awesome. So, that leads me to believe that my HU is the source of distortion, but I thought the MS8 was supposed to flatten out the signal from the HU??? My system is...

2011 Toyota 4Runner w/Factory JBL Nav system
JL 300/4 running the front Hertz HSK 165's actively
Alpine PD600.1 running a CDT 8" sub in the factory enclosure
MS8 running factory rear door speakers as sides
The rear tailgate speakers are dis-connected

What would be my next step besides replacing my HU?


----------



## Hooper

pionkej said:


> Try reducing your gains to where the were when you ran the sweep, turn UP the sub gain, and re-run acoustic calibration.
> 
> The general rule is:
> 
> *subs too strong and midbass is weak -- turn up the sub level and re-run
> *subs weak with boomy midbass -- turn down sub level and re-run
> 
> The reason is because: when the sub level is too low, it boosts the subs and cuts the midbass (and you end up with what you're likely describing), when the sub level is too high, it cuts the subs and boosts the midbass (and you end up with muddy midbass and weak sub output).
> 
> If you fix it properly, it SHOULD keep the rear-fill output levels high enough to keep you happy as well. Hope that helps.


Thanks for the suggestion, and that makes sense. I will try it and let you know.


----------



## Hooper

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yup. Add an amp for the rear or turn off Logic7. Then, the rears will play much louder, but without Logic7 you may lose some stage width and depth.


Thanks Andy. I know that one of my problems with the headroom or weak volume issue is that there is a significant difference between the output volume when the head unit is playing a CD or radio, vs. playing my iPod through the head unit's audio input jack (NOT the MS8 audio input but rather the head unit's audio jack). When my iPod is playing the music (which I use most of the time), the volume or headroom is significantly weaker. If I calibrate the system and do not raise the gains after, playing a CD actually produces about the right volume and headroom. But when I connect my iPhone to the head unit I have to crank up the volume way, way high and it is still weak in the guts. I know this is an issue with the head unit as it has always played this way. the problem just seems to be worse after installing the MS8.

Also, I have been running the MS8 volume at -5 db. Is there anything wrong with turning it up all the way to 0 db? Thanks...


----------



## Hooper

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yup. Add an amp for the rear or turn off Logic7. Then, the rears will play much louder, but without Logic7 you may lose some stage width and depth.


Thanks Andy. I know that one of my problems with the headroom or weak volume issue is that there is a significant difference between the output volume when the head unit is playing a CD or radio, vs. playing my iPod through the head unit's audio input jack (NOT the MS8 audio input but rather the head unit's audio jack). When my iPod is playing the music (which I use most of the time), the volume or headroom is significantly weaker. If I calibrate the system and do not raise the gains after, playing a CD actually produces about the right volume and headroom. But when I connect my iPhone to the head unit I have to crank up the volume way, way high and it is still weak in the guts. I know this is an issue with the head unit as it has always played this way. the problem just seems to be worse after installing the MS8.

Also, I have been running the MS8 volume at -5 db. Is there anything wrong with turning it up all the way to 0 db? Thanks...


----------



## Hooper

Andy I know you talked about this somewhere in the thread but I can't find it anywhere. Can you explain what the system levels in the audio controls actually do to the system? I am curious if they throw the logic 7 out of sync, if you say, increase or decrease them? Do you follow me? thanks...


----------



## subwoofery

Hooper said:


> Andy I know you talked about this somewhere in the thread but I can't find it anywhere. Can you explain what *the system levels in the audio controls* actually do to the system? I am curious if they throw the logic 7 out of sync, if you say, increase or decrease them? Do you follow me? thanks...


Don't really understand what you're asking... Talking about the EQ? 
If yes, the answer is in the manual. 

Kelvin


----------



## 14642

Hooper said:


> Andy I know you talked about this somewhere in the thread but I can't find it anywhere. Can you explain what the system levels in the audio controls actually do to the system? I am curious if they throw the logic 7 out of sync, if you say, increase or decrease them? Do you follow me? thanks...


System levels are pretty simple. The fader adjusts the level of the front and rear speakers independently of Logic7. If you fade to the front, the rears are attenuated and if you fade to the rear, the fronts are attenuated. 

The center channel level control increases or decreases the level of the center channel. 

The subwoofer control increases the bass in all channels below 60Hz but never above 160Hz. The slope of the EQ filter is increased as you increase the level. This is designed to increase the level of the sub bass without making it boomy and to maintain the apparent location of bass sounds by maintaining the acoustic crossover point between the sub and the rest of the speakers (primarily the front). 

Auxiliary level increases or decreases the level of the auxiliary input.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy or others,

I would like some clarification on the proper procedure for level-matching. Depending on whether the speakers are Hi, Lo, or Sub, what are the frequency ranges to measure? Is the level matching done based on a peak or an average over a certain frequency range?

Thanks.


----------



## duro78

I would also like to know 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## Hooper

Andy is there anything wrong with placing the MS8 volume at 0 db? I do not keep the display hooked up and I use the head unit's volume controls. The manual says if you don't keep the display hooked up then you should place the volume at -6 db. Since I am trying to achieve more headroom would it be okay to run the MS8 volume at 0 db?


----------



## Hooper

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> System levels are pretty simple. The fader adjusts the level of the front and rear speakers independently of Logic7. If you fade to the front, the rears are attenuated and if you fade to the rear, the fronts are attenuated.
> 
> The center channel level control increases or decreases the level of the center channel.
> 
> The subwoofer control increases the bass in all channels below 60Hz but never above 160Hz. The slope of the EQ filter is increased as you increase the level. This is designed to increase the level of the sub bass without making it boomy and to maintain the apparent location of bass sounds by maintaining the acoustic crossover point between the sub and the rest of the speakers (primarily the front).
> 
> Auxiliary level increases or decreases the level of the auxiliary input.


Great explanation thanks!


----------



## 14642

Hooper said:


> Andy is there anything wrong with placing the MS8 volume at 0 db? I do not keep the display hooked up and I use the head unit's volume controls. The manual says if you don't keep the display hooked up then you should place the volume at -6 db. Since I am trying to achieve more headroom would it be okay to run the MS8 volume at 0 db?


I suggest -6 to leave room in the digital signal for the bass boost and other EQ that's included in the signal. With digital audio, when you run out of bits, you run out of bits. If you set it at 0 and don't hear any distortion when you turn the factory control up, then it's fine.


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> Andy or others,
> 
> I would like some clarification on the proper procedure for level-matching. Depending on whether the speakers are Hi, Lo, or Sub, what are the frequency ranges to measure? Is the level matching done based on a peak or an average over a certain frequency range?
> 
> Thanks.


Well...I've probably set up a hundred MS-8s and have never used an analyzer to level match anything. The only cars that have ever given me problems are ones in which the subwoofer is in a tiny box that creates a huge peak at 70Hz or cars in which the box is in a sealed trunk (like your BMW). In systems where tweeters are driven with separate amp channels, too little gain on the tweeter amp (and too little tweeter output) will cause MS-8 to boost the highs, which can add some hiss to the signal.

MS-8 uses 50-80Hz and 80-500Hz to level match the sub and the rest of the channels. In the BMW, the under-seat woofers are REALLY efficient between 80-500 and your sub in that little box is attenuated by MANY dB below 50Hz and provides most of its output at about 70--80Hz The result is big cuts in the midbass for the under-seat woofers. Reduction in the peak in the subwoofer (70-80Hz) and big boost at low frequencies to the sub that it can't easily reproduce. This is one of the few systems that MS-8 can't EQ adequately. I think you've proven that a tiny sealed sub in the trunk of a BMW isn't optimum by moving the sub to the back seat. 

Here's something to try: Engage the low pass filter in the amp that drives your sub and adjust it sothat you have flatter response from the sub. My guess is that you'll need to set the filter at 60-70Hz. Turn the midbass amp DOWN so the underseat woofers aren't overpowering the rest of the system. Then recalibrate.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well...I've probably set up a hundred MS-8s and have never used an analyzer to level match anything. The only cars that have ever given me problems are ones in which the subwoofer is in a tiny box that creates a huge peak at 70Hz or cars in which the box is in a sealed trunk (like your BMW). In systems where tweeters are driven with separate amp channels, too little gain on the tweeter amp (and too little tweeter output) will cause MS-8 to boost the highs, which can add some hiss to the signal.
> 
> MS-8 uses 50-80Hz and 80-500Hz to level match the sub and the rest of the channels. In the BMW, the under-seat woofers are REALLY efficient between 80-500 and your sub in that little box is attenuated by MANY dB below 50Hz and provides most of its output at about 70--80Hz The result is big cuts in the midbass for the under-seat woofers. Reduction in the peak in the subwoofer (70-80Hz) and big boost at low frequencies to the sub that it can't easily reproduce. This is one of the few systems that MS-8 can't EQ adequately. I think you've proven that a tiny sealed sub in the trunk of a BMW isn't optimum by moving the sub to the back seat.
> 
> Here's something to try: Engage the low pass filter in the amp that drives your sub and adjust it sothat you have flatter response from the sub. My guess is that you'll need to set the filter at 60-70Hz. Turn the midbass amp DOWN so the underseat woofers aren't overpowering the rest of the system. Then recalibrate.


Thanks for the info. Your ears are probably better than any RTA money can buy so don't sell yourself as an average Joe! 

The reason I was asking is because I now have the best calibration ever, but the digital headroom is extremely low. I have to crank the HU to near clipping levels and the MS-8 to -6dB to even get somewhat loud, definitely not enough for those days when I feel like cranking it. Increasing my gains is not an option right now because I have an issue with engine noise from one of the amps.

So I was thinking the lack of headroom is due to a level-mismatch. When measuring the levels in the frequency ranges you provided, is it better to do this during the sweeps (which is harder to do because they happen so quick) or is it ok to use the pink noise during speaker testing?

I will also try the low pass crossover trick you suggested. Believe it or not, I was thinking about doing that the other day, if moving the sub to the back seat had not worked so well!


----------



## 14642

If you now have a calibration that you like, turn the amp gains up a bit (all by the same amount).


----------



## 14642

Oh, and consider getting rid of the box and doing an infinite baffle in the rear package tray. If you're even in LA, give me a ring and I'll show you what that sounds like.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If you now have a calibration that you like, turn the amp gains up a bit (all by the same amount).


I had just amended my post to add that I have noise in one of the amps and I cannot increase the gains. It is the amp that drives the center channel. What I did this morning is I increased all the gains except the center, and then I increased the center level on the MS-8 to near max. I think though that this is not ideal...

I will probably be in LA within the next 2 or 3 months. I have a friend in Pasadena so I'll definitely take you up on that offer!


----------



## Neil_J

Engine noise sounds like a ground loop problem. Have you gone through the process of trying to eliminate it? If you get that squared away, that would allow you to increase your gains.


----------



## toolsong

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I suggest -6 to leave room in the digital signal for the bass boost and other EQ that's included in the signal. With digital audio, when you run out of bits, you run out of bits. If you set it at 0 and don't hear any distortion when you turn the factory control up, then it's fine.


Hi Andy

When running off the aux in, is your advice any different with regards to increasing the aux input level in the audio menu?

On my E39 the relative volume from aux in only matches the high-level input volume when the aux input is increased by 4 or 5 steps. Note this is from the same source with the same output level, a PhatBox.

Is that input level adjustment only changing the gain on the aux in RCAs, or reducing overall headroom? It sounds fine so I'm guessing the former


----------



## Awdtalon92

I have read though a good portion of this monster thread, but have not come across my issue.

Here is my current setup.

2004 Cadillac CTS-V, using stock headunit. Using left and right front output from Bose amp to input 1 and 2, and input 7 from the Bose amp's sub out.

Using the MS-8's internal amp to power stock speakers. This is a temporary setup, as I will be replacing the fronts and the sub.

Got everything installed, and went through initial setup, and calibration. Only measured for Driver's seat. The initial sound was HORRENDOUS. Nothing but distortion at all volume levels. Retried with the volume control on the headunit all the way down, and raising until I just got the OK,OK,OK indication. also, I tried doing the sweeps at -30, instead of the -10 I had done it at earlier.

Still sounds like garbage. Not even subjectively bad, I mean almost every speaker seems like it is trying to jump out of its basket and tear itself apart. When I defeat the auto tune, it sounds decent. Leaving Logic 7 on creates a nice sound stage over the dash that the stock system could not do. Yes, I can hear holes in the frequency response in places, but I only get distortion at high volume. Normal listening levels are at least clean.

I am crossing the fronts at 80z 24db, the rears at 100hz 24db. 

I plan to replace the doors with alpine SPX-17PRO mids, and replace the A pillar tweets with Vifa OC19 tweets, since the Alpine tweets are way to big to fit in the stock locations. I plan to continue to use the MS-8 internal amps, and actively cross over the mids and tweets. For the sub I am contemplating adding an amp, and doing a 10" in an IB config. Anyway, before I continue with this project, I would like to get at least a decent tune of the stock setup. (That is the whole selling point of the MS-8, right?) 

From what I am describing, what could I could be doing wrong? Are the stock speakers just so bad that the MS-8 is boosting things like crazy, causing massive distortion from the built in amp? Any idea of how I could test this hypothesis?

Thanks,:juggle:


----------



## naiku

I think this is going to be fairly obvious, but I want to double check before doing much. I replaced my stock center speaker with an Aura NSW2-326-8AT, unfortunately I can't fit anything bigger.

Anyway, when using the stock speaker, it was very clear that there was a center speaker, vocals sounded like they were coming from the center of the dash etc. Now, with the Aura, its like the stage has shifted to the left (so more directly in front of the steering wheel, and its less pronounced than the stock speaker was). I have run calibration a couple times, and it makes no difference.

The only thing I can think of, is that the stock speaker was probably a 4ohm, and the Aura is an 8ohm. My amps have digital gains, and I keep them right at 2V. How much should I increase the gain by to get my distinct center back? Assuming that the 4 vs 8 ohm is causing the difference. 

If that's not it, then what could be causing it to sound so different.
Thanks.


----------



## aviator79

thomasluke said:


> Low/mid start with 400 and work your down untill the driver sounds stressed at high volume.
> Mid/high start with 2500 and work your way up untill you like the sound.


Is it posible this was wrong info? I have tried over and over with no luck getting anything from subs using these settings. I just did a calibration with saying I had no subs using OEM settings and it was the first time I heard what the dyn 8" can do. Amazing. Im going to now go try a calibrations using OEM setting but will say I have a sub and will see what happens.

EDIT:
NO LUCK. I give up.
The only time I was able to get anything from the subs was when I turned the mid and tweet gain up with sub and midbase all the way down, then setting MS8 to -60 and I finaly got something from subs. 
I did a tune with no subs and sounded gread, but no subs...
So I am going back to tune with no subs for now and just figure out some other tuning system. I dont want to have to trick the thing to make it work. I should just work right? I will see if @daverulz can figure it out.


----------



## 14642

Check the crossover settings on the amplifier that drives your subs. Make sure it's off. Something is drastically wrong in the setup.


----------



## 14642

naiku said:


> I think this is going to be fairly obvious, but I want to double check before doing much. I replaced my stock center speaker with an Aura NSW2-326-8AT, unfortunately I can't fit anything bigger.
> 
> Anyway, when using the stock speaker, it was very clear that there was a center speaker, vocals sounded like they were coming from the center of the dash etc. Now, with the Aura, its like the stage has shifted to the left (so more directly in front of the steering wheel, and its less pronounced than the stock speaker was). I have run calibration a couple times, and it makes no difference.
> 
> The only thing I can think of, is that the stock speaker was probably a 4ohm, and the Aura is an 8ohm. My amps have digital gains, and I keep them right at 2V. How much should I increase the gain by to get my distinct center back? Assuming that the 4 vs 8 ohm is causing the difference.
> 
> If that's not it, then what could be causing it to sound so different.
> Thanks.


Reverse the polarity of the center sp[eaker and see if the change is big


----------



## 14642

Awdtalon92 said:


> I have read though a good portion of this monster thread, but have not come across my issue.
> 
> Here is my current setup.
> 
> 2004 Cadillac CTS-V, using stock headunit. Using left and right front output from Bose amp to input 1 and 2, and input 7 from the Bose amp's sub out.
> 
> Using the MS-8's internal amp to power stock speakers. This is a temporary setup, as I will be replacing the fronts and the sub.
> 
> Got everything installed, and went through initial setup, and calibration. Only measured for Driver's seat. The initial sound was HORRENDOUS. Nothing but distortion at all volume levels. Retried with the volume control on the headunit all the way down, and raising until I just got the OK,OK,OK indication. also, I tried doing the sweeps at -30, instead of the -10 I had done it at earlier.
> 
> Still sounds like garbage. Not even subjectively bad, I mean almost every speaker seems like it is trying to jump out of its basket and tear itself apart. When I defeat the auto tune, it sounds decent. Leaving Logic 7 on creates a nice sound stage over the dash that the stock system could not do. Yes, I can hear holes in the frequency response in places, but I only get distortion at high volume. Normal listening levels are at least clean.
> 
> I am crossing the fronts at 80z 24db, the rears at 100hz 24db.
> 
> I plan to replace the doors with alpine SPX-17PRO mids, and replace the A pillar tweets with Vifa OC19 tweets, since the Alpine tweets are way to big to fit in the stock locations. I plan to continue to use the MS-8 internal amps, and actively cross over the mids and tweets. For the sub I am contemplating adding an amp, and doing a 10" in an IB config. Anyway, before I continue with this project, I would like to get at least a decent tune of the stock setup. (That is the whole selling point of the MS-8, right?)
> 
> From what I am describing, what could I could be doing wrong? Are the stock speakers just so bad that the MS-8 is boosting things like crazy, causing massive distortion from the built in amp? Any idea of how I could test this hypothesis?
> 
> Thanks,:juggle:


Please try one thing and report back:

Disconnect the sub output of the bose amp from the input of MS-8 and run setup again. Let's see if the distortion goes away--we'll work on the bass next (if it's missing).


----------



## doitor

Andy, can I buy a display and remote?
If so, whats the price?
Thanks

Jorge


----------



## nineball

doitor said:


> Andy, can I buy a display and remote?
> If so, whats the price?
> Thanks
> 
> Jorge


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-classifieds/122947-wts-ms-8-remote.html


----------



## naiku

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Reverse the polarity of the center sp[eaker and see if the change is big


Thanks, that seemed to make a noticeable difference. I then re-ran calibration, and it sounds better, but not the same as with the stock speaker, but also it sounds more integrated (not sure if that makes sense) with the other speakers. 

I think all it needs now is a bit better level matching with the front speakers, when I assign the channels, the center is always a bit quieter than the fronts. 

Love the way it makes my music sound though, Portishead Live in New York sounds fantastic, as does Metallica, Deadmau5, Florence and the Machine, Kanye West etc etc. Pretty much anything I have thrown at it. 

What's funny is I am sure if I can find someone local who actually knows what they are doing, that it could probably sound even better.


----------



## brianhj

*Should I be concerned??*

It's hard to tell in the picture but it looks like the copper is discolored (oxidation?) in the wiring harness.


----------



## 14642

toolsong said:


> Hi Andy
> 
> When running off the aux in, is your advice any different with regards to increasing the aux input level in the audio menu?
> 
> On my E39 the relative volume from aux in only matches the high-level input volume when the aux input is increased by 4 or 5 steps. Note this is from the same source with the same output level, a PhatBox.
> 
> Is that input level adjustment only changing the gain on the aux in RCAs, or reducing overall headroom? It sounds fine so I'm guessing the former


It only adjusts the gain of the aux in.


----------



## Lateralis

Looking for some suggestions again. Here's a run down of all the equipment I got.

Front Stage:
L1R2 Pro tweets
Legatia L4's
Legatia L6's

Rear
JL XR crxi650's

Subs
2x JL 12" w6v2d4

Amps
2x Alpine pdx 4.100
1x Alpine pdx mx12

And of coarse the MS-8

The way right now that I'm planning on hooking everything up is run 1 4.100 for the L4's and L1R2's, bridge the other 4.100 for the L6's, and than I'm up in the air about even dealing with the rear doors. Ch's 1-6 will be for the front stage only. Ch's 7-8 are up in the are up in the air for the moment.

Should I say F' the rears and use 7-8 for the subs, or should I just do what I was kinda originally planning and use 7/8 for the rears, than use the kiagoss method to run the subs off of the L6's channels? If I do use 7/8 for the rears I plan on just running it off of the ms-8 power. 50w's to me seems like plenty for rear fill. Another idea I was putting around with is if I do use ch 7/8 for the subs, tune with the rear speakers disconnected, then run the rears off the deck after I am done tuning. Is that a bad idea?

Also what FR/db ranges should I pick for the associated speakers when setting up the ms-8? This is what I found that the manufacture recommends, but just looking for a 2nd opinion. 

L1R2 - 1.8Khz @24db hipass
L4 - 100hz @ 24db hipass
L6 - 50hz @ 24db hipass

Not sure if this helps but my speaker placement for all the HAT's are as follows:
L1R2's: Stock sail location 90deg out of phase
L4's: Kick panels in phase
L6's: stock door location. Forward bottom corner of the door.

If I do use the kiagoss method wouldn't setting up the L6 at 50Hz affect how my subs respond? With it like that it wont respond to anything less the 50hz right? Only thing right now I can think of is change the crossover point of the L6 to something lower like 30hz and then use the 4.100 crossover to do a 50hz hipass with a low pass of like 60-80hz on the m12. 

Another thing I'm wondering about is level matching the gain's. I haven't really seen anything as to what voltage is coming out of the MS-8's rca pre amp outputs. I could have missed it so I apologize if it's a dumb question. 

Lastly this might not be the best place to ask but I am making a sealed box for the w6's. My issue is that JL recommends a 1.25cu per sub so effectively a 1.34cu when taking the sub displacement into account. The area I'm working with I MIGHT be able to get somewhere around 2cu. Would it be better if I just run 1 w6 with the m12. If so would my sub be ok with a 1200w amp pushing it around, or is the smaller box for the 2 12's not that big of an issue and I should just go that route?

Sorry for the super lengthy post and if I posted this in the wrong area. Thanks for any input and advice!


----------



## thomasluke

aviator79 said:


> Is it posible this was wrong info? I have tried over and over with no luck getting anything from subs using these settings. I just did a calibration with saying I had no subs using OEM settings and it was the first time I heard what the dyn 8" can do. Amazing. Im going to now go try a calibrations using OEM setting but will say I have a sub and will see what happens.
> 
> EDIT:
> NO LUCK. I give up.
> The only time I was able to get anything from the subs was when I turned the mid and tweet gain up with sub and midbase all the way down, then setting MS8 to -60 and I finaly got something from subs.
> I did a tune with no subs and sounded gread, but no subs...
> So I am going back to tune with no subs for now and just figure out some other tuning system. I dont want to have to trick the thing to make it work. I should just work right? I will see if @daverulz can figure it out.


Exactly how are you setting it up. Are you running a three way front with subs?


----------



## duro78

I just bypassed the 8 and ran it active off of the deck

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## duro78

Andy,

Based on another members suggestion I realised cold temps were responsible for me getting such a weak response from my remote. Since the unit is in my second car which I only drive local the temps in the car were never reaching warm temps by the time I got to my destination. Plus most of my tinkering was done sitting in the car with the outside temps around 25-35 degrees with the engine off. Once I tried warming the car up first I'm getting excellent range now. I've never encountered this with devices that used a RF signal. Hopefully this will help any members suffering from a weak signal living in colder climates

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Awdtalon92

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Please try one thing and report back:
> 
> Disconnect the sub output of the Bose amp from the input of MS-8 and run setup again. Let's see if the distortion goes away--we'll work on the bass next (if it's missing).


Andy, before I read your response, I tried a few things.

First, I disconnected the factory sub, and hooked up a 6.5" Bazooka bass tube I had lying around. (its temporary!) Recalibrated, and everything got much better. I checked on the factory sub, and the damned thing has a nominal impedance of LESS than 1OHM! I doubt the MS-8 internal amp was liking that. 

I installed the Alpine mids, recalibrated, better still. Now the limiting factor was the factory tweeters. I decided to just do the replacement. It took a little creative destruction of the factory tweet and the Vifas are in there, and it looks completely stock. Had to run new wire for the tweets to go active, and using 3500hz 24db between mids and tweets, and 90hz for the sub.

Recalibrated and things are much better now, but I didn't really get a chance to listen, since it was late.

So, do you think I should still try removing the sub input? I've read that the front/sub outputs from the Bose amp are crossed over at 100hz 12db. Would the MS-8 be able compensate for those attenuated frequencies?
Thanks!


----------



## SVOEO

*System Design Q for BMW*

Tried searching the thread a bunch first, FYI...

335i with Logic 7 system. New Focals all around inside. Midwoofs replace subs underseat. New custom sub. Will use Logic 7 mode (want center fill and some rear ambience). What is the best output channel assignment config with this combo? Run back deck and mid woofs mono? Leave out back deck? Front seat SQ is focus. External amps to be used. 

Thanks!
JD


----------



## alachua

*Re: System Design Q for BMW*



SVOEO said:


> Tried searching the thread a bunch first, FYI...
> 
> 335i with Logic 7 system. New Focals all around inside. Midwoofs replace subs underseat. New custom sub. Will use Logic 7 mode (want center fill and some rear ambience). What is the best output channel assignment config with this combo? Run back deck and mid woofs mono? Leave out back deck? Front seat SQ is focus. External amps to be used.
> 
> Thanks!
> JD


I spent a few hours combing this thread and E90post to figure this out as well, as I am in the process of finding a 335 for myself. It more or less goes like this, the physical channel numbers are inconsequential, I'm only using them for clarity of the layout:

CH1: left tweeter/mid (using passive x-overs or amp x-over)
CH2: right tweeter/mid (using passive x-overs or amp x-over)
CH3: left under seat midbass
CH4: right under seat midbass
CH5: center
CH6: left side/rear speakers together (either using a 'y' cable to connect to different channels on your amp, or running the rears in series or parallel to a single amp channel. I believe the factory speakers are 2ohm, so be careful if you are going to run the pair off a single amp channel)
CH7: right side/rear speakers together
CH8: sub

As an additional option, you can use the 'Kaigos' mod and run the sub and under seat mid bass speakers together, using your amp's internal cross over, this may necessitate some unique wiring depending on your amp configuration. Additionally, Kaigos recently said he attained a far superior performance using the more common layout I listed (or similar, I'm not fully familiar with his system) but using a bit of an odd technique for calibration. You can find it in the last week or so of posting within this thread.


----------



## dblazian33

Just bought one from a member here. It's supposed to be here Saturday so I've been doing some reading around so I'll be prepared. Looking forward to finishing my first active setup.


----------



## slinger1

Heres my latest setup after re-wireing the subs for 4 ohms instead of 1 ohm....

2009 Platinum F-150 crew:

Pioneer 4200dvd
Focal 165 vb's in front doors with tweets mounted high on doors
Focal 130 A1's in rear doors with tweets mounted also
2-RE Audio SEX 10D4's in Foxacustics ported 2.05cu box @36hz under rear seat 4 ohms.

Amps:
Rockford P400.4 (ch. 1-2 front tweets) and (5-6 for rears thru focal xover)
Rockford P300.2 (ch. 3-4 front mids)
RE Audio XTX 3000.1 (ch. 7 for subs)

MS-8: 
Sub = 1 
SS-20hz/24db
Sub/Front = 80hz/12db
Front hi = 4000hz/12db
Sides = 100hz/12db

MS8 volume at -50 for calibration...Tried to match volume levels of speakers with the test noise during the channel mapping step with amp gains.(all gains at near 1/2)..The sub amp is set at 3 of 10....During cal. the sweeps are rather low in volume for the mids/tweets and the sub sweep is even lower but still audiable...After completion of cal. i set the MS8 volume to -6db and use HU for control with PLENTY of headroom....Im still playing with the slopes but everything sounds great...With the subs now at 4 ohms the bass seems more "controlled" and not as boomy and overpowering...Sound stage is high and centered with the subs feeling like they are up front with ya...Tweets are crisp and mids are nice and punchy..

Questions:

Only questions i have are concerning the subs....I am using ch. 7 to feed the mono amp for the 2 RE subs but there are 2 inputs on the amp...Will it make any differance if i use 7-8 both to the mono amp with subs wired as one 4 ohm load? Or is only one channel nessesary for subs..? Also any slope setting suggestions that you guys think would improve my set-up?... or do they seem ok..?


----------



## SVOEO

*Re: System Design Q for BMW*



alachua said:


> I spent a few hours combing this thread and E90post to figure this out as well, as I am in the process of finding a 335 for myself. It more or less goes like this, the physical channel numbers are inconsequential, I'm only using them for clarity of the layout:
> 
> CH1: left tweeter/mid (using passive x-overs or amp x-over)
> CH2: right tweeter/mid (using passive x-overs or amp x-over)
> CH3: left under seat midbass
> CH4: right under seat midbass
> CH5: center
> CH6: left side/rear speakers together (either using a 'y' cable to connect to different channels on your amp, or running the rears in series or parallel to a single amp channel. I believe the factory speakers are 2ohm, so be careful if you are going to run the pair off a single amp channel)
> CH7: right side/rear speakers together
> CH8: sub
> 
> As an additional option, you can use the 'Kaigos' mod and run the sub and under seat mid bass speakers together, using your amp's internal cross over, this may necessitate some unique wiring depending on your amp configuration. Additionally, Kaigos recently said he attained a far superior performance using the more common layout I listed (or similar, I'm not fully familiar with his system) but using a bit of an odd technique for calibration. You can find it in the last week or so of posting within this thread.


Thanks Alachua. The Kaigos mod approach was considered but that would seriously inhibit the MS-8s ability to EQ the bass, one of the primary reasons to have the unit at all. Combining rear door with rear deck in 5.1+ Midbass x2 makes a lot of sense. The Logic 7 mode might be less than perfect in the rear sound filed with that set-up, but that is a compromise I can certainly live with. Cheers!


----------



## taibanl

*Re: System Design Q for BMW*



SVOEO said:


> Tried searching the thread a bunch first, FYI...
> 
> 335i with Logic 7 system. New Focals all around inside. Midwoofs replace subs underseat. New custom sub. Will use Logic 7 mode (want center fill and some rear ambience). What is the best output channel assignment config with this combo? Run back deck and mid woofs mono? Leave out back deck? Front seat SQ is focus. External amps to be used.
> 
> Thanks!
> JD


*Logic 7 processing requires that the sides or rear deck be stereo; however they can be wired in parallel. Additionally, the front stage imagine is impacted by Logic 7 use of the rear speakers. It works well to glue your image on the dash. Use rears.*


alachua said:


> I spent a few hours combing this thread and E90post to figure this out as well, as I am in the process of finding a 335 for myself. It more or less goes like this, the physical channel numbers are inconsequential, I'm only using them for clarity of the layout:
> 
> CH1: left tweeter/mid (using passive x-overs or amp x-over)
> CH2: right tweeter/mid (using passive x-overs or amp x-over)
> CH3: left under seat midbass
> CH4: right under seat midbass
> CH5: center
> CH6: left side/rear speakers together (either using a 'y' cable to connect to different channels on your amp, or running the rears in series or parallel to a single amp channel. I believe the factory speakers are 2ohm, so be careful if you are going to run the pair off a single amp channel)
> CH7: right side/rear speakers together
> CH8: sub
> 
> As an additional option, you can use the 'Kaigos' mod and run the sub and under seat mid bass speakers together, using your amp's internal cross over, this may necessitate some unique wiring depending on your amp configuration. Additionally, Kaigos recently said he attained a far superior performance using the more common layout I listed (or similar, I'm not fully familiar with his system) but using a bit of an odd technique for calibration. You can find it in the last week or so of posting within this thread.





SVOEO said:


> Thanks Alachua. The Kaigos mod approach was considered but that would seriously inhibit the MS-8s ability to EQ the bass, one of the primary reasons to have the unit at all. Combining rear door with rear deck in 5.1+ Midbass x2 makes a lot of sense. The Logic 7 mode might be less than perfect in the rear sound filed with that set-up, but that is a compromise I can certainly live with. Cheers!


Not to make this TOO complicated, but there is a taibanl mod to the kaigoss mod. Kaigoss did not calibrate his sub and only hooked it up post calibration. I did my best to level match it to my under seats pre-calibration and then let the calibration run (you can also unplug it for TA sweeps but plug it in for EQ sweeps). I got very good results, excellent results doing that. I would be they are on par with kaigoss's current method, if not better.


----------



## stefanhinote

Lateralis said:


> Looking for some suggestions again. Here's a run down of all the equipment I got.
> 
> Front Stage:
> L1R2 Pro tweets
> Legatia L4's
> Legatia L6's
> 
> Rear
> JL XR crxi650's
> 
> Subs
> 2x JL 12" w6v2d4
> 
> Amps
> 2x Alpine pdx 4.100
> 1x Alpine pdx mx12
> 
> And of coarse the MS-8
> 
> The way right now that I'm planning on hooking everything up is run 1 4.100 for the L4's and L1R2's, bridge the other 4.100 for the L6's, and than I'm up in the air about even dealing with the rear doors. Ch's 1-6 will be for the front stage only. Ch's 7-8 are up in the are up in the air for the moment.
> 
> Should I say F' the rears and use 7-8 for the subs, or should I just do what I was kinda originally planning and use 7/8 for the rears, than use the kiagoss method to run the subs off of the L6's channels? If I do use 7/8 for the rears I plan on just running it off of the ms-8 power. 50w's to me seems like plenty for rear fill. Another idea I was putting around with is if I do use ch 7/8 for the subs, tune with the rear speakers disconnected, then run the rears off the deck after I am done tuning. Is that a bad idea?
> 
> Also what FR/db ranges should I pick for the associated speakers when setting up the ms-8? This is what I found that the manufacture recommends, but just looking for a 2nd opinion.
> 
> L1R2 - 1.8Khz @24db hipass
> L4 - 100hz @ 24db hipass
> L6 - 50hz @ 24db hipass
> 
> Not sure if this helps but my speaker placement for all the HAT's are as follows:
> L1R2's: Stock sail location 90deg out of phase
> L4's: Kick panels in phase
> L6's: stock door location. Forward bottom corner of the door.
> 
> If I do use the kiagoss method wouldn't setting up the L6 at 50Hz affect how my subs respond? With it like that it wont respond to anything less the 50hz right? Only thing right now I can think of is change the crossover point of the L6 to something lower like 30hz and then use the 4.100 crossover to do a 50hz hipass with a low pass of like 60-80hz on the m12.
> 
> Another thing I'm wondering about is level matching the gain's. I haven't really seen anything as to what voltage is coming out of the MS-8's rca pre amp outputs. I could have missed it so I apologize if it's a dumb question.
> 
> Lastly this might not be the best place to ask but I am making a sealed box for the w6's. My issue is that JL recommends a 1.25cu per sub so effectively a 1.34cu when taking the sub displacement into account. The area I'm working with I MIGHT be able to get somewhere around 2cu. Would it be better if I just run 1 w6 with the m12. If so would my sub be ok with a 1200w amp pushing it around, or is the smaller box for the 2 12's not that big of an issue and I should just go that route?
> 
> Sorry for the super lengthy post and if I posted this in the wrong area. Thanks for any input and advice!


Nothing is set in stone, so expect to try different things out. One thing for sure, the L4s will need to be crossed higher, and L6s shouldn't have any issue with that. I'd start off around 350hz for xo between the L6 and L4.

Surprisingly, I've found in my setup, that I like a shallow slope between my midrange and tweeter. Helps make a more natural sound to me, blended.


----------



## Technic

*Re: System Design Q for BMW*



taibanl said:


> Logic 7 processing requires that the sides or rear deck be stereo; however they can be wired in *series*. Additionally, the front stage imagine is impacted by Logic 7 use of the rear speakers. It works well to glue your image on the dash. Use rears.


Fixed.

OEM Logic7 rear speakers _should_ be wired in *series* regardless if the MS-8 internal or aftermarket amps are used. Unless a 1ohm stable amp is used...


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: System Design Q for BMW*



Technic said:


> Fixed.
> 
> OEM Logic7 rear speakers _should_ be wired in *series* regardless if the MS-8 internal or aftermarket amps are used. Unless a 1ohm stable amp is used...


Why can't you wire two 4 ohms speakers in parallel into a 2 ohm stable amp channel?


----------



## 14642

The mids in the L7 system are "2-ohm" drivers.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The mids in the L7 system are "2-ohm" drivers.


ah nevermind. I completly missed the "OEM" part of the question. :blush:


----------



## taibanl

Technic said:


> Fixed.
> 
> OEM Logic7 rear speakers _should_ be wired in *series* regardless if the MS-8 internal or aftermarket amps are used. Unless a 1ohm stable amp is used...





t3sn4f2 said:


> Why can't you wire two 4 ohms speakers in parallel into a 2 ohm stable amp channel?





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The mids in the L7 system are "2-ohm" drivers.





t3sn4f2 said:


> ah nevermind. I completly missed the "OEM" part of the question. :blush:


As did I...thanks guys for catching that part of the OPs (can you even call someone that in this thread?) question.


----------



## Hooper

Andy, or anyone that can help, I have a terrible turn off thump that i cannot get to go away. I have played with the delay and it makes no difference. Before I added the MS8 I had the same exact amps, head unit, act. and here was no problem. Now I have a terrible turn off thump. I have searched the thread and can;t find anything. Can you point me in the right direction? Thanks...


----------



## subwoofery

Hooper said:


> Andy, or anyone that can help, I have a terrible turn off thump that i cannot get to go away. I have played with the delay and it makes no difference. Before I added the MS8 I had the same exact amps, head unit, act. and here was no problem. Now I have a terrible thorn off thump. I have searched the thread and can;t find anything. Can you point me in the right direction? Thanks...


In order to help you, you need to help us... What's your system? Second battery? Isolator? HO Alternator? Capacitor? How many amps? Etc... 

Without more info about your system and just saying "I have a problem please help me" will get you nowhere 

Kelvin


----------



## ZAKOH

Lateralis said:


> Looking for some suggestions again. Here's a run down of all the equipment I got.
> 
> Front Stage:
> L1R2 Pro tweets
> Legatia L4's
> Legatia L6's
> 
> Rear
> JL XR crxi650's
> 
> Subs
> 2x JL 12" w6v2d4
> 
> Amps
> 2x Alpine pdx 4.100
> 1x Alpine pdx mx12
> 
> And of coarse the MS-8
> 
> The way right now that I'm planning on hooking everything up is run 1 4.100 for the L4's and L1R2's, bridge the other 4.100 for the L6's, and than I'm up in the air about even dealing with the rear doors. Ch's 1-6 will be for the front stage only. Ch's 7-8 are up in the are up in the air for the moment.
> 
> Should I say F' the rears and use 7-8 for the subs, or should I just do what I was kinda originally planning and use 7/8 for the rears, than use the kiagoss method to run the subs off of the L6's channels? If I do use 7/8 for the rears I plan on just running it off of the ms-8 power. 50w's to me seems like plenty for rear fill. Another idea I was putting around with is if I do use ch 7/8 for the subs, tune with the rear speakers disconnected, then run the rears off the deck after I am done tuning. Is that a bad idea?
> 
> Also what FR/db ranges should I pick for the associated speakers when setting up the ms-8? This is what I found that the manufacture recommends, but just looking for a 2nd opinion.
> 
> L1R2 - 1.8Khz @24db hipass
> L4 - 100hz @ 24db hipass
> L6 - 50hz @ 24db hipass



You may want to take a look at the klippel and product review forums because the L6 and L4 have been analyzed there a lot:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/bikinpunks-product-review-forum/106303-hybrid-audio-l4-l4se.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/bikinpunks-product-review-forum/106244-hybrid-audio-l6-l6se.html


Perhaps I have no idea what I am talking about, but the presence of the L4 in your setup seems superfluous. The L6 can play relatively flat up to something like 4-6KHz if it is placed on axis. Off axis, 6-7 inch drivers can play up to something like 2.5-3KHz before their frequency response is affected by beaming. So if you intend to have your tweeters play down to 1.8KHz, the L6 could blend with that tweeter easily. This could also remove the headache of deciding between having rear speakers or subwoofers due to MS-8 having only 8 channels. With 2-way front, you can have both.

Another thing I don't like about this proposed setup is that the 1.8KHz high pass is probably at the limit of the capabilities of the tweeter and 100Hz high pass is probably near the limit of capabilities of a small driver like the L4. This could potentially result in more distorted, harsher sound at higher volumes, but I am not 100% sure of this. If I had the L6 and an L1PRO tweeter, I'd experiment with crossover frequencies in the range between 3KHz and 5KHz. If you dig up older posts of Scott Buwalda, who designed these drivers, his preference is to use a higher crossover frequency between tweeter and woofer for better imaging. He argued a lot against high passing tweeter at 2KHz or near that frequency unless the tweeter is placed next to the woofer. If tweeter is far apart from the woofer, ideally it should be high passed so that its output in the vocal range (below 2KHz) is relatively insignificant. If you want to maintain an illusion of a high sound stage, a tweeter that's placed high and high-passed at 4-6KHz should be good enough to help with that.

If you still want to go with a 3-way setup, you can still keep the rear speakers and the subwoofers. What you can do is use the crossovers on a typical 4-channel amplifier to filter the frequencies between the L4 and L6. There are plenty of amplifiers that high high/low pass filter in the 200-300Hz range. I'd use something like 200Hz as a crossover frequency between the L6 and L4. Since L4 has a good frequency response up to very high frequencies, you could easily low pass it at 4-5KHz or higher, and let the tweeters cover treble frequencies.


----------



## Hooper

subwoofery said:


> In order to help you, you need to help us... What's your system? Second battery? Isolator? HO Alternator? Capacitor? How many amps? Etc...
> 
> Without more info about your system and just saying "I have a problem please help me" will get you nowhere
> 
> Kelvin


Geeze take your lectures elsewhere man, they don't help the forum. Not helpful to use requests for help as a platform to lecture and feed your stereo god ego. That info should not be necessary at all for this question.

Andy if you have time to respond at some point I appreciate it. Thanks...


----------



## 14642

Hooper, sorry to disappoint you and I'll try not to lecture, but the information is necessary. Turn off and turn on thump is ALWAYS caused by some component's DC offset. MS-8 doesn't make turn on and turn off thump on its own, but it does pass those thumps from the head unit and, depending on how it's connected may amplify those.

Eliminating turn on and turn off thump is always an exercise in making sure the thump isn't passed to the amps. This can be fixed by timing the turn on and turn off of the various components or filtering the DC. 

I have to know what head unit you're using and how it's connected to MS-8. MS-8's remote turn on OUTPUT should be connected to the remote turn on of the factory amp (if the amp has a turn on wire). Are you using speaker level inputs and which head-unit/factory amp?


----------



## FungusBrain

I finally have my MS-8 sounding decent calibrating with sub unplugged, except for 1 problem...

I have a "speaker thump" distortion when using my head unit as the source. It does not happen when I use the aux input. When I have the volume of my head unit at 44 (out of 63), I get distortion from my front mids that kind of sounds like a speaker thump. It is not an overall volume issue, because I get it even when I turn the MS-8 volume down way low...same thump on certain midbass notes when I have my head unit volume at 44 or higher. I can turn the MS-8 up to -5 or 0, and have plenty of volume when my head unit is at 43, but get more system hiss from the MS-8, so I need to leave it at -10 or below. (By the way, when I run the input setup cd, I have to turn my head unit volume up to 50 to get the OK,OK,OK. And it will still say OK,OK,OK when I have to head unit volume maxed...never says "noisy".)

I was using 5 outputs from my factory amp to the MS-8...front High, Front low, and sub...I dis-connected the sub input to the MS-8 trying to eliminate the distortion with no change whatsoever. Is there anything I can do to try to clean up the signal anymore? Does anyone know of a separate signal summing, un-EQ'ing, interface I can put in-between the factory amp and MS-8?

My system...

2011 Toyota 4Runner w/JBL "Premium" navigation
MS-8
JL XD600/6 running front active (4 channels bridged to mids)
Hertz HSK165 
Alpine PDX 1.600 running 8" CDT sub in factory location for now

I have the high pass set at 80Hz/24dB, Front x-over at 3200Hz/24dB.


----------



## thehatedguy

Andy, any more in the linking of 2 MS-8s?


----------



## AndyInOC

Hooper said:


> Andy, or anyone that can help, I have a terrible turn off thump that i cannot get to go away. I have played with the delay and it makes no difference. Before I added the MS8 I had the same exact amps, head unit, act. and here was no problem. Now I have a terrible turn off thump. I have searched the thread and can;t find anything. Can you point me in the right direction? Thanks...


Leave it on at all times, problem solved.


----------



## subwoofery

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hooper, sorry to disappoint you and I'll try not to lecture, but the information is necessary. Turn off and turn on thump is ALWAYS caused by some component's DC offset. MS-8 doesn't make turn on and turn off thump on its own, but it does pass those thumps from the head unit and, depending on how it's connected may amplify those.
> 
> Eliminating turn on and turn off thump is always an exercise in making sure the thump isn't passed to the amps. This can be fixed by timing the turn on and turn off of the various components or filtering the DC.
> 
> I have to know what head unit you're using and how it's connected to MS-8. MS-8's remote turn on OUTPUT should be connected to the remote turn on of the factory amp (if the amp has a turn on wire). Are you using speaker level inputs and which head-unit/factory amp?


At least I tried  

Kelvin


----------



## subwoofery

FungusBrain said:


> I finally have my MS-8 sounding decent calibrating with sub unplugged, except for 1 problem...
> 
> I have a "speaker thump" distortion when using my head unit as the source. It does not happen when I use the aux input. When I have the volume of my head unit at 44 (out of 63), I get distortion from my front mids that kind of sounds like a speaker thump. It is not an overall volume issue, because I get it even when I turn the MS-8 volume down way low...same thump on certain midbass notes when I have my head unit volume at 44 or higher. I can turn the MS-8 up to -5 or 0, and have plenty of volume when my head unit is at 43, but get more system hiss from the MS-8, so I need to leave it at -10 or below. (By the way, when I run the input setup cd, I have to turn my head unit volume up to 50 to get the OK,OK,OK. And it will still say OK,OK,OK when I have to head unit volume maxed...never says "noisy".)
> 
> I was using 5 outputs from my factory amp to the MS-8...front High, Front low, and sub...I dis-connected the sub input to the MS-8 trying to eliminate the distortion with no change whatsoever. Is there anything I can do to try to clean up the signal anymore? Does anyone know of a separate signal summing, un-EQ'ing, interface I can put in-between the factory amp and MS-8?
> 
> My system...
> 
> 2011 Toyota 4Runner w/JBL "Premium" navigation
> MS-8
> JL XD600/6 running front active (4 channels bridged to mids)
> Hertz HSK165
> Alpine PDX 1.600 running 8" CDT sub in factory location for now
> 
> I have the high pass set at 80Hz/24dB, Front x-over at 3200Hz/24dB.


Ok, I'll resume: 
- speaker thump and distortion with HU volume @ 44 - none @ 43 
- system hiss if MS-8 volume higher than -10 

I'd like to know at which MS-8 volume are you calibrating? 
- Also, suggest you try this config for the MS-8 input: front high and sub (Andy might be a better help since it's a JBL system from factory) 
- Recheck your wiring (MS-8 output to amps) since you're amping your drivers. A lot of members made a mistake when plugging their RCAs due to the different output layout... 
- Check your OEM HU so that all EQs and sound processing are OFF 
- You said that you managed to get your system sounding decent... Did you match the levels of all the drivers correctly? Any driver sounds louder than another when calibrating? MS-8 might be boosting something, creating the hiss. 

Kelvin


----------



## FungusBrain

Thanks for the reply! It's easy for something to get overlooked in this thread.

The only way I could get it to calibrate without a huge hole in the midrange was to physically unplug the sub during calibration. Last calibration was done at -40...seems like -45 to -35 is giving me the best results.

I did try to match all the driver levels using the system check pink noise and my spl meter a few inches away from the driver I was measuring...just trying to match the mid/tweet levels. I did have some side speakers running off of the MS-8, but have given up on them for the time being. Would be a little easier if it would output pink noise per driver, not mid and high at the same time. What's the best way of matching mid and tweets? I might try raising the gain on the tweets a little more...right now, the tweet gain is about 40% and the mids on about 50% on my amp.

I actually get some hiss out of the MS-8 all the way down to -80...will be dead silent if I hit mute on MS-8 remote. Just starts to get really bad around -10 and up. How sensitive is the MS-8 with power? I think my installer tapped into the power and ground from my factory amp.

I have checked and rechecked all the wiring going into and out of the MS-8, and all settings are flat on the HU. I will try your suggestion of using the highs and sub only...couldn't hurt. Is there an easy way to just pull the pins out of the MS-8 speaker connector? Would be easier then cutting and re-soldering, if I need to hook them back up. Unhooking the sub input is easy, since it is a separate plug on the factory amp.

Thanks for the help!!!


----------



## alachua

FWIW, the mic on the iPhone is pretty flat from 200hz to about 5Khz.

Source

I personally use my iPhone held near where my head would be to level match my tweeter/mid using the MS8 system check pink noise.


----------



## Awdtalon92

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Please try one thing and report back:
> 
> Disconnect the sub output of the bose amp from the input of MS-8 and run setup again. Let's see if the distortion goes away--we'll work on the bass next (if it's missing).


Andy,

I removed the Bose amp sub output from the MS-8 Input 7, and re-calibrated. There seemed to be very little difference in the pillar mounted tweeter's excessive distortion with auto-tune activated, and yes I am now missing bass. At low levels the auto-tune sounds great, even with the missing bass. But as soon as I go up a bit, the tweeters break up terribly, especially when reproducing voices, both male, and female.

To test this I used the 1997 IASCA competition CD (last time I was a judge, I'm getting old. arty3, and used track 19-22 which are for testing spectral balance. You set the volume level on track 19 which plays a voice counting from 1-10 in the right channel only. You are supposed to set the volume so that it is normal speaking volume as heard from the driver's seat. Then tracks 20-22 get progressivly louder, WITHOUT you touching the volume. This gives a standard jump in sound level. The first track which is supposed to be about 74 db, sounds great with the auto-tune on. The second, at ~86 sounds ok at first, then the tweeters distort more and more as the track goes along. Defeating the auto tune here of course makes it sounds "worse", but the tweeters play with no distortion. The next track at ~98db, is a disaster with the autotune. It is pure tweeter destroying distortion. With the auto tune defeated, its a bit harsh, but clean.

I am calibrating at -20 on the MS-8 BTW.

Am I just running into an issue where the MS-8 is compensating for the tweeters shortcomings way to much? Am I expecting more than I should from the MS-8's onboard amp? Could the mid-tweet crossover point/slope make a difference? I tried 2500, 3000, and 2500 at 24db. Can I "trick":sombrero: the MS-8 during calibration to handle the tweeter differently?

Thank in advance for your help.


----------



## subwoofery

FungusBrain said:


> Thanks for the reply! It's easy for something to get overlooked in this thread.
> 
> The only way I could get it to calibrate without a huge hole in the midrange was to physically unplug the sub during calibration. Last calibration was done at -40...seems like -45 to -35 is giving me the best results.
> Did you try with the subwoofer (plugged) reversed in polarity?
> 
> I did try to match all the driver levels using the system check pink noise and my spl meter *a few inches away from the driver* I was measuring... Levels should be done with the mic/SPL meter around where your head would be... Like when you're calibrating. just trying to match the mid/tweet levels. I did have some side speakers running off of the MS-8, but have given up on them for the time being. Would be a little easier if it would output pink noise per driver, not mid and high at the same time. What's the best way of matching mid and tweets? I might try raising the gain on the tweets a little more...right now, the tweet gain is about 40% and the mids on about 50% on my amp. Instead of raising the gain on your tweet, why not lower the gain on the mid?
> 
> I actually get some hiss out of the MS-8 all the way down to -80...will be dead silent if I hit mute on MS-8 remote. Just starts to get really bad around -10 and up. How sensitive is the MS-8 with power? I think my installer tapped into the power and ground from my factory amp.
> 
> I have checked and rechecked all the wiring going into and out of the MS-8, and all settings are flat on the HU. I will try your suggestion of using the highs and sub only...couldn't hurt. Is there an easy way to just pull the pins out of the MS-8 speaker connector? Would be easier then cutting and re-soldering, if I need to hook them back up. Unhooking the sub input is easy, since it is a separate plug on the factory amp. Can't help with that one...
> 
> Thanks for the help!!!


Kelvin


----------



## Hooper

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hooper, sorry to disappoint you and I'll try not to lecture, but the information is necessary. Turn off and turn on thump is ALWAYS caused by some component's DC offset. MS-8 doesn't make turn on and turn off thump on its own, but it does pass those thumps from the head unit and, depending on how it's connected may amplify those.
> 
> Eliminating turn on and turn off thump is always an exercise in making sure the thump isn't passed to the amps. This can be fixed by timing the turn on and turn off of the various components or filtering the DC.
> 
> I have to know what head unit you're using and how it's connected to MS-8. MS-8's remote turn on OUTPUT should be connected to the remote turn on of the factory amp (if the amp has a turn on wire). Are you using speaker level inputs and which head-unit/factory amp?


Hi Andy,
Thanks for the reply. I completely understand if more info is needed, and totally appreciate anyone's voluntary and free help on the forums. His lecture was just unnecessary, because I didn't provide all the needed info initially. Anyway, enough of that junk.

So this may make things a bit complicated, but its a factory head unit in a 2011 camaro (factory upgraded Boston Acoustics system - but I don;t think the head unit is actually BA). The outputs on the head unit are low level, and when it was stock it ran to a cheap Boston amp that powered all the stock speakers. I am using a custom-built harness I bought from a vendor created specifically for this car's system to be able to make installing aftermarket amps easier (by providing a quick connection from the stock amps plugs into RCAs). It connects to the plug that goes into the Boston amp, and provides RCA front and rear leads to go to aftermarket amps (eliminating the Boston amp). The rears are not used, and the fronts run to the MS8, and then the MS8 goes to 2 JL amps. This harness also has a remote turn on lead that connects from the wire that turned on the Boston amp, and I have it connected to the MS8 turn on INPUT. I then have the MS8 OUTPUTS connected to my aftermarket amps. Here is the rest of the set-up:

JL Slash 300/4 - powering mids/highs
JL XD400/1 - powering JL W6 Sub
JL Speakers
Oh and this cool little unit called the JBL MS8...

Strange thing is that prior to installing the MS8 this set-up worked fine together with no turn off thump. Of course other than it sounded like dog fodder compared to now with the MS8 . So installing the MS8 has somehow changed something different that causes the turn off thump (there is no turn-on problem, only turn OFF thump). I have tried setting the MS8 delay on all 3 settings - 0 sec, 2 sec, and 5 sec. No difference either way, still a major turn off thump. Other than that, everything works great. 

I totally appreciate any help you can provide. Thanks... john


----------



## radarcontact

Hooper said:


> Hi Andy,
> Thanks for the reply. I completely understand if more info is needed, and totally appreciate anyone's voluntary and free help on the forums. His lecture was just unnecessary, because I didn't provide all the needed info initially. Anyway, enough of that junk.
> 
> So this may make things a bit complicated, but its a factory head unit in a 2011 camaro (factory upgraded Boston Acoustics system - but I don;t think the head unit is actually BA). The outputs on the head unit are low level, and when it was stock it ran to a cheap Boston amp that powered all the stock speakers. I am using a custom-built harness I bought from a vendor created specifically for this car's system to be able to make installing aftermarket amps easier (by providing a quick connection from the stock amps plugs into RCAs). It connects to the plug that goes into the Boston amp, and provides RCA front and rear leads to go to aftermarket amps (eliminating the Boston amp). The rears are not used, and the fronts run to the MS8, and then the MS8 goes to 2 JL amps. This harness also has a remote turn on lead that connects from the wire that turned on the Boston amp, and I have it connected to the MS8 turn on INPUT. I then have the MS8 OUTPUTS connected to my aftermarket amps. Here is the rest of the set-up:
> 
> JL Slash 300/4 - powering mids/highs
> JL XD400/1 - powering JL W6 Sub
> JL Speakers
> Oh and this cool little unit called the JBL MS8...
> 
> Strange thing is that prior to installing the MS8 this set-up worked fine together with no turn off thump. Of course other than it sounded like dog fodder compared to now with the MS8 . So installing the MS8 has somehow changed something different that causes the turn off thump (there is no turn-on problem, only turn OFF thump). I have tried setting the MS8 delay on all 3 settings - 0 sec, 2 sec, and 5 sec. No difference either way, still a major turn off thump. Other than that, everything works great.
> 
> I totally appreciate any help you can provide. Thanks... john


I'm not an expert like others on here, but to get you started I would:

1) really examine that turn-on lead. Have someone help you and check the voltage when the wire is energized and then again when power is removed. Maybe it is "holding power" longer than it should for some reason (small cap in OEM amp?). 

2) I'd also look up your schematic (on JBL.com or elsewhere), to make sure that your wiring harness has correctly used the righ turn-on wire.

3) if you have your amps turned-on via daisy-chain, try reversing the order of the amps' turn-on sequence, and if that doesn't work try using a distro block (or just connect 1-to-2) so that the JL get/lose power at the same time.

4) maybe experiment with rigging a switch into the MS-8's remote out to amps' remote in turn-on wire. Then see if you get a thump when you flip the switch and cut the power instantly.


iPad/TapaTalk


----------



## taibanl

I also had a huge THUMP in my system when powering up/down. My friends used to joke that it meant my system means business when they got in the car.

Interestingly enough...with all the same components, hooked up the same way, except with the sub amp now hooked up in parallel to the front stage, the thump is 95% gone.

I don't know why..but...you could try that.


----------



## taibanl

kaigoss69 said:


> Thanks for the info. Your ears are probably better than any RTA money can buy so don't sell yourself as an average Joe!
> 
> The reason I was asking is because I now have the best calibration ever, but the digital headroom is extremely low. I have to crank the HU to near clipping levels and the MS-8 to -6dB to even get somewhat loud, definitely not enough for those days when I feel like cranking it. Increasing my gains is not an option right now because I have an issue with engine noise from one of the amps.
> 
> So I was thinking the lack of headroom is due to a level-mismatch. When measuring the levels in the frequency ranges you provided, is it better to do this during the sweeps (which is harder to do because they happen so quick) or is it ok to use the pink noise during speaker testing?
> 
> I will also try the low pass crossover trick you suggested. Believe it or not, I was thinking about doing that the other day, if moving the sub to the back seat had not worked so well!


1) Did you use test menu pink noise or the output setup pink noise

2) did you try my rendition? (Calibrate with sub online)


----------



## kaigoss69

taibanl said:


> 1) Did you use test menu pink noise or the output setup pink noise


pink noise from set-up menu.



taibanl said:


> 2) did you try my rendition? (Calibrate with sub online)


not yet. did a few dozen calibrations this week. I actually was not able to get back to the quality of the first one I did with the sub in the back seat. I will try your trick but before I have to solve this engine noise issue, it is driving me mad.


----------



## taibanl

I am thinking of doing a major upgrade to my system. I don't really hear the need, I am happy enough, I just am pulled into balancing my system better, plus some cosmetic issues.

I want to replace my 600/6 which powers the under seats @ 200wpc and fronts @75wpc with a HD600/4 @ 150wpc (all).

I will add a HD 900/5 to power rears @ 100wpc and center BIAMPED (crossed from MS-8) 100wpc each to woofer and tweeter. The center is only rated for 30wpc though, but I imagine that is mostly due to the fact that the tweeter is crossed with 6db/octave PTC. The tweeter itself (when purchased separately) is rated up to 100wpc so I think it will be ok. I think the woofer will also be ok when properly band passed above 200hz. 

Finally replace my Alpine MRD-M300 (which deletes some cool options that i don't know how to use) with the 500wpc of the 900/5

Thoughts (specifically on plan as a whole, and running 100watts to that 30watt rated coaxial).

I will still run the kaigoss mod on my sub to allow for the biamped center (unless convinced to the contrary).


----------



## kaigoss69

Funny, I was reading Patrick Bateman's post on using one centralized tweeter yesterday, and I was thinking about doing something similar. Right now I am actually running the L/R L3SEs on Rainbow passives with Cal25 tweeters, but the sound, compared to the L3SEs by themselves, is a bit too harsh for me to be honest. So I was thinking to run the doors without tweeters again and add a Cal25 to the center with the passive crossover. Now that I read your post about bi-am ping the center, I am intrigued to try that and see if that will reduce the harshness and bring some more clarity and definition to the front stage. Hmmm, gonna have to tear things apart again I guess... 



taibanl said:


> I am thinking of doing a major upgrade to my system. I don't really hear the need, I am happy enough, I just am pulled into balancing my system better, plus some cosmetic issues.
> 
> I want to replace my 600/6 which powers the under seats @ 200wpc and fronts @75wpc with a HD600/4 @ 150wpc (all).
> 
> I will add a HD 900/5 to power rears @ 100wpc and center BIAMPED (crossed from MS-8) 100wpc each to woofer and tweeter. The center is only rated for 30wpc though, but I imagine that is mostly due to the fact that the tweeter is crossed with 6db/octave PTC. The tweeter itself (when purchased separately) is rated up to 100wpc so I think it will be ok. I think the woofer will also be ok when properly band passed above 200hz.
> 
> Finally replace my Alpine MRD-M300 (which deletes some cool options that i don't know how to use) with the 500wpc of the 900/5
> 
> Thoughts (specifically on plan as a whole, and running 100watts to that 30watt rated coaxial).
> 
> I will still run the kaigoss mod on my sub to allow for the biamped center (unless convinced to the contrary).


----------



## taibanl

kaigoss69 said:


> Funny, I was reading Patrick Bateman's post on using one centralized tweeter yesterday, and I was thinking about doing something similar. Right now I am actually running the L/R L3SEs on Rainbow passives with Cal25 tweeters, but the sound, compared to the L3SEs by themselves, is a bit too harsh for me to be honest. So I was thinking to run the doors without tweeters again and add a Cal25 to the center with the passive crossover. Now that I read your post about bi-am ping the center, I am intrigued to try that and see if that will reduce the harshness and bring some more clarity and definition to the front stage. Hmmm, gonna have to tear things apart again I guess...


Interesting that you find them hatsh. I run the passives wide open with them. AND have treble freqs boosted in the ms-8 to restore the target curve to flat on the high end. I love being able to hear vocalist breath sounds picked up by the condenser mike. Reminds me of my younger years back in the recording studio. 


FWIW the idea of biamping the center was mine but it was your idea to run that much power to it (you had thought bridged)


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## kaigoss69

Andreas, have you thought about where to mount the HD amps? You know I don't think they will fit under the CD trim as they are a bit too wide for that space. The only place I have found for them is under the rear deck. I tried under the trunk floor, but the HD900 got too hot for my liking.


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## taibanl

I do see they are slightly wide but intend to fit them just like technic, except with ms-8 underneath


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## taibanl

In fact thats half the reason for my change. They would look better there than my xd/alpine combo


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## taibanl

Nevermind kai, technic is running pdx, not hd. Did you try mounting like his though?


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## kaigoss69

taibanl said:


> Nevermind kai, technic is running pdx, not hd. Did you try mounting like his though?


Yeah I know the PDX fits. I just took some measurements of the depth of the amps together with the RCAs and I do not see how it could fit, without removing the OEM mounting bracket in the back. Even then I think it would be tough. However, looking at the depth of the HD900 vs PDX-5 the HD is only marginally bigger, so I don't know. From a height perspective it would also be a challenge, given the OEM amp is still down there.


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## taibanl

Technic pointed me to another thread where hes done it on a customers car. Looks like room to spare. Check out m3post


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## kaigoss69

Andy, I have JL HD amps with switchable lo/hi inputs. I have engine noise using RCAs and I was wondering if there would be any disadvantage in utilizing the MS-8's hi-level outputs as amp inputs. Which would you use and why???


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## t3sn4f2

kaigoss69 said:


> Andy, I have JL HD amps with switchable lo/hi inputs. I have engine noise using RCAs and I was wondering if there would be any disadvantage in utilizing the MS-8's hi-level outputs as amp inputs. Which would you use and why???


Not Andy, but a few people use the ms-8 with those amps and no one complained about noise. Or even elevated noise floor issues. 

Check your grounds, check your RCA cables. Unplug RCA cables at ever interface point, starting at the amp inputs and see where the noise starts. Then trouble shoot that area.


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## subwoofery

kaigoss69 said:


> Andy, I have JL HD amps with switchable lo/hi inputs. I have engine noise using RCAs and I was wondering if there would be any disadvantage in utilizing the MS-8's hi-level outputs as amp inputs. Which would you use and why???


What's your input voltage setting set at (with RCAs)? Low or High? 
Input sensitivity should also be close to the minimum... 

Kelvin


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## kaigoss69

subwoofery said:


> What's your input voltage setting set at (with RCAs)? Low or High?
> Input sensitivity should also be close to the minimum...
> 
> Kelvin


Switch is on "low" and sensitivity is at minimum (2V). I am not so much interested in trouble shooting, rather in information on using MS-8 speaker level vs. RCA outputs as aftermarket amp inputs, when you have the choice to use both at the amp!


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## subwoofery

kaigoss69 said:


> Switch is on "low" and sensitivity is at minimum (2V). I am not so much interested in trouble shooting, rather in information on using MS-8 speaker level vs. RCA outputs as aftermarket amp inputs, when you have the choice to use both at the amp!


Read that but not sure if it applies to your case: 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1554205-post7490.html 

Kelvin


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## Ganderson

Holy ****!!!

Today I finally experienced the jet engine noise that many others have reported and almost had to change my pants afterwords.

I had just finished the acoustic measurements for the passenger seat, clicked "done", and a before i could even unplug the mic a low hum kicked in and quickly escalated into a full volume noise blast that I had to kill the ignition to stop...powering off the HU did nothing.

After a minute I turned the car on again and as soon as the MS-8 booted... Here it comes again... Damn.

The only way I could get it to stop was to reset to factory defaults.

I need to check my gear out tomorrow but I will be shocked if something isn't blown.


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## t3sn4f2

Any updates on this?


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## dowheelies

I'm not thrilled with the jet engine noise reports... Watching closely to hopefully avoid this in my currently evolving install. I had read Andy was working on this and was getting a known jet noise unit sent to him. Did that bear any fruit?

Ganderson I got my fingers crossed for ya' buddy that nothing is shot!

Eric


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## duro78

Ganderson said:


> Holy ****!!!
> 
> Today I finally experienced the jet engine noise that many others have reported and almost had to change my pants afterwords.
> 
> I had just finished the acoustic measurements for the passenger seat, clicked "done", and a before i could even unplug the mic a low hum kicked in and quickly escalated into a full volume noise blast that I had to kill the ignition to stop...powering off the HU did nothing.
> 
> After a minute I turned the car on again and as soon as the MS-8 booted... Here it comes again... Damn.
> 
> The only way I could get it to stop was to reset to factory defaults.
> 
> I need to check my gear out tomorrow but I will be shocked if something isn't blown.


Yeah once the noise starts you pretty much have to pull the rcas until the noise cycles through. If you don't have any protection for your drivers they just might be blown, one of your tweeters at least. We pretty much figured out what configurations cause the noise so it is avoidable. It can easily be recreated so its not really a freak occurrence. I've gotten so good at it I know exactly when its gonna start lol. The mic has nothing to do with it by the way. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Salami

duro78 said:


> It can easily be recreated so its not really a freak occurrence.


If is easily created why is there no info on how and why it occurs? It would be great for everyone to know what causes it so it can be avoided.


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## Ganderson

Yes, this. Please share this info. This "glitch" is dangerous to equipment and any insight as to how to avoid would be really helpful.

Honestly unless a fix is coming soon this unit will not be in my car for much longer.


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## duro78

Salami said:


> If is easily created why is there no info on how and why it occurs? It would be great for everyone to know what causes it so it can be avoided.


Actually there is, its been discussed at length in a couple threads. Andy can explain a lot better than me but ill try. Apparently its caused by a filter leak when more than one listening position is done during acoustic measurements. When more than one listening position is saved the unit kind of crashes and the noise starts. It fan happen right after calibration or it can happen shortly after. I haven't had the noise in weeks but If i do more than one listening position it will start as soon as I hit done. Andy has been actively working on it and they're fully aware of what conditions cause it. There's a couple threads about it.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Ganderson

What's crazy about that is I've been using the MS-8 for 6 or 7 months and recalibrate a lot (always the front 2 seats) yet this is the first time it's happened so I'm not sure about the "easily recreated" thing.

The first mention in this thread I can find of this issue dates back to 6/2010 so they've been fully aware and actively working on this for almost 2 years!!??

That's not good.


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## kaigoss69

duro78 said:


> The mic has nothing to do with it by the way.


That's news to me. Care to elaborate?


----------



## cycfari

I've got 2 instances happened immediately after the calibration; both times it's single seat with the car engine not running. Luckily none of my drivers are damaged.

I'm suspecting that it has got something to do with low voltage when the engine is not running (charging the battery). Now whenever i do calibration, I'll hook up my car to a trigger charger if the engine is not running. I haven't encountered anymore jet noise yet. I am damned phobia of it though.


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## duro78

kaigoss69 said:


> That's news to me. Care to elaborate?


It happens with or without the mic being plugged in. My mic has been continuousily plugged in for the last month and no noise but as soon as I do more than one listening position and press done it would start. Several people have had the noise with and without the mic being plugged in.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## Salami

duro78 said:


> Actually there is, its been discussed at length in a couple threads. Andy can explain a lot better than me but ill try. Apparently its caused by a filter leak when more than one listening position is done during acoustic measurements. When more than one listening position is saved the unit kind of crashes and the noise starts. It fan happen right after calibration or it can happen shortly after. I haven't had the noise in weeks but If i do more than one listening position it will start as soon as I hit done. Andy has been actively working on it and they're fully aware of what conditions cause it. There's a couple threads about it.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk



Since it has been discussed in couple of threads please point us to EXACTLY where the cause it stated in clear and concise terms. From what I have read here there is nothing by speculation, no clear and definitive answers. 

From what you have stated here, since it is easily created, just about everyone who has done the listening calibration for more than one seat should be having this issue. It should be a WIDE spread problem, which is already apparent that it is not.


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## duro78

Is this an interrogation, am i on the stand lol. Type ms8 jet engine noise then hit search or pm Andy. Did I not say Andy could explain it better than I could and certain configurations cause the noise?If you feel I dont know what I'm talking about by all means ignore my post. I'm not on the stand so I'm not going out of my way to prove my statement in a "CLEAR AND CONCISE" manner as you requested. For anyone else that wants any further info I can forward you some pm's Andy sent me. Thank you 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Salami

duro78 said:


> It can easily be recreated so its not really a freak occurrence. I've gotten so good at it I know exactly when its gonna start lol.


Did you not post this? If you know what is causing the noise, post the damn info. Otherwise how are we supposed to avoid it and how can you say it is not a freak occurrence? 




duro78 said:


> If you feel I dont know what I'm talking about by all means ignore my post. I'm not on the stand so I'm not going out of my way to prove my statement in a "CLEAR AND CONCISE" manner as you requested.


You are on the stand now because of the first quoted statement. If you will not back up your statement I and others will call ******** on that you know what is causing the problem and that it is easily repeated. You stated something as fact and are refusing to back it up.

You have also implied and said the information as to the cause is easily found and it is NOT.


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## rcurley55

I believe the thread is is referencing is here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-experiencing-airplane-noise-please-read.html

While it certainly indicates that there are some potential drivers behind the "airplane" or "jet" noise, there don't appear to be any black and white solutions in there - unless I'm missing something...


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## kaigoss69

No smoking gun that I know of. But I think it has been documented that if you only calibrate the driver's side AND you unplug the mic before you hit "done", the chances of the noise occurring are greatly minimized.


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## subwoofery

Some got the noise when calibrating only 1 seat (aka BigRed)... I believe. 

Kelvin


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## dlheman

I have only experienced jet engine noise once, and it was during listening without starting the engine. I have to brave myself to turn on the ms8 again and quickly scroll to reset to factory default while the insanely loud noise spiral through my speakers. It ends with a loud pop also. Then the battery died that night.

so I figured maybe it was low voltage because i was having too much fun playing with ms8 and listening to the changes without having the engine running. Obviously i forgot about the battery. Ever since then I always turn on the engine during listening test after making changes to the ms8 calibration.


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## duro78

Salami said:


> Did you not post this? If you know what is causing the noise, post the damn info. Otherwise how are we supposed to avoid it and how can you say it is not a freak occurrence?
> 
> 
> You are on the stand now because of the first quoted statement. If you will not back up your statement I and others will call ******** on that you know what is causing the problem and that it is easily repeated. You stated something as fact and are refusing to back it up.
> 
> You have also implied and said the information as to the cause is easily found and it is NOT.


Dude am i on your payroll? You should work on your approach when you actually want something from someone that doesn't owe you a damn thing. I would of gladly produced the link and pms. I'm not gonna jump to prove you wrong like a 10yr old. Ill sleep just fine knowing salami thinks I'm full of ****. Like I said before to anyone that wants the info I will gladly forward it to them. With the exception of salami of course I will actually sleep better knowing he thinks I'm full of ****.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## rcurley55

Duro78, I have a yet to be installed MS-8, so this is of interest to me.

Someone mentioned:
_"It would be great for everyone to know what causes it so it can be avoided._

To which you responded:
_Actually there is, its been discussed at length in a couple threads. _

Can you point me to those threads where people have discussed how to avoid this? The only thread I know of on this board is the one I posted earlier.

All that I have read is that some individuals can replicate the jet sound in their own specific configuration, not in all configurations. At this point, I don't think that there are definitive configurations where the noise is impossible either.

I'm just looking for further reference material, so if you have it, I'd love to read more on it.


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## 14642

duro78 said:


> Dude am i on your payroll? You should work on your approach when you actually want something from someone that doesn't owe you a damn thing. I would of gladly produced the link and pms. I'm not gonna jump to prove you wrong like a 10yr old. Ill sleep just fine knowing salami thinks I'm full of ****. Like I said before to anyone that wants the info I will gladly forward it to them. With the exception of salami of course I will actually sleep better knowing he thinks I'm full of ****.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Guys,
As I've said many times before, we're trying to find a condition under which the noise can be repeated reliably. In order to fix it, we have to know what causes it. I greatly appreciate your help in describing the conditions under which this happens. Everyone's input has been helpful.

Duro, If I knew exactly what causes this, it would be fixed. We have them set up in labs and we're still trying. I have speculated based on the input here but have not been able to confirm. I know you're frustrated and I'm sorry.


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## duro78

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Guys,
> As I've said many times before, we're trying to find a condition under which the noise can be repeated reliably. In order to fix it, we have to know what causes it. I greatly appreciate your help in describing the conditions under which this happens. Everyone's input has been helpful.
> 
> Duro, If I knew exactly what causes this, it would be fixed. We have them set up in labs and we're still trying. I have speculated based on the input here but have not been able to confirm. I know you're frustrated and I'm sorry.


I'm far from frustrated actually quite the opposite. That wasnt focused towards you at all. Not sure if you remember but based on the checklist or specific settings you asked I was able to alleviate the noise. To the point I can actually create the noise based on changing those settings. Based your explanation of what the problem maybe (via pm) I've avoided certain settings and haven't experienced the noise for over a month. I can't speak for anyone else but I went from getting the noise after every calibration to not at all. During that time I was able to cause the noise based on that one setting. Based on my own personal experience and the bit of info you gave me I'm noise free. All I was trying to do was share my experience in hopes maybe it could help someone else. I'm in no way saying other setup configurations wont cause the noise. Once again based on your assumption of what causes the noise and avoiding certain settings Im noise free. 
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## kaigoss69

duro78 said:


> I'm far from frustrated actually quite the opposite. Not sure if you remember but based on the checklist or specific settings you asked I was able to alleviate the noise. To the point I can actually create the noise based on changing those settings. Based your explanation of what the problem maybe (via pm) I've avoided certain settings and haven't experienced the noise for over a month. I can't speak for anyone else but I went from getting the noise after every calibration to not at all. During that time I was able to cause the noise based on that one setting. Based on my own personal experience and the bit of info Andy gave me I'm noise free. All I was trying to do was share my experience in hopes maybe it could help someone else. I'm in no saying other setup configurations wont cause the noise. Thank you Andy I'm noise free and happy with the unit.
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


I'm sorry but WTH is wrong with you? Why are you beating around the bush? Can you just not clearly state EXACTLY what setting produced the noise for you and EXACTLY what you did to avoid it??? Jeeezzzzz....


----------



## pionkej

duro78 said:


> I'm far from frustrated actually quite the opposite. Not sure if you remember but based on the checklist or specific settings you asked I was able to alleviate the noise. To the point I can actually create the noise based on changing those settings. Based your explanation of what the problem maybe (via pm) I've avoided certain settings and haven't experienced the noise for over a month. I can't speak for anyone else but I went from getting the noise after every calibration to not at all. During that time I was able to cause the noise based on that one setting. Based on my own personal experience and the bit of info Andy gave me I'm noise free. All I was trying to do was share my experience in hopes maybe it could help someone else. I'm in no saying other setup configurations wont cause the noise. Thank you Andy I'm noise free and happy with the unit.
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Duro, 

It's good that you are able to avoid whatever causes the noise by utilizing these temporary workarounds. That being said, your "advice" is frustrating people because it isn't accurate to all installs. I obviously don't know what the issue is, but I know that I have run many calibrations (all without a reset) and do it for AT LEAST the driver and passenger seat each time. I have two MS8's and to date have had ZERO issues. It makes sense to me that these actions don't cause the "jet engine noise", but instead, some install based factor does and IF you do those things (run multiple calibrations/run calibrations for multiple seats) the noise shows up.

So going around and telling people to reset each time for re-calibration and only measure for one seat isn't good. You may be preventing some people from enjoying all facets of the MS8 and they may never have a problem. I think there should be a "if you experience jet engine noise...do this" thread people can reference until Andy/JBL can get this fixed, but people shouldn't fear using all the tools the MS8 has to offer because of something that may or may not happen in their install.


----------



## duro78

kaigoss69 said:


> I'm sorry but WTH is wrong with you? Why are you beating around the bush? Can you just not clearly state EXACTLY what setting produced the noise for you and EXACTLY what you did to avoid it??? Jeeezzzzz....


Wtf is wrong with you? Besides salami no else asked me for my settings, if they did I didn't see it. I dont follow the thread per post , dont have time. You come with same BS he did. A simple how is your system configured would suffice, all the other BS isn't necessary. That's exactly wth is wrong with me. 
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## t3sn4f2

kaigoss69 said:


> I'm sorry but WTH is wrong with you? Why are you beating around the bush? Can you just not clearly state EXACTLY what setting produced the noise for you and EXACTLY what you did to avoid it??? Jeeezzzzz....


up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, start


----------



## duro78

duro78 said:


> Wtf is wrong with you? Besides salami no else asked me for my settings, if they did I didn't see it. I dont follow the thread per post , dont have time. You come with same BS he did. A simple how is your system configured would suffice, all the other BS isn't necessary. That's exactly wth is wrong with me. Furthermore if salami or anyone else things I'm full o **** that's fine ill keep my noise free ms8 to myself. My post was in response to Andy's post hence the quotation.
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk




Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## kaigoss69

LOL you live happily ever after with your little secret.


----------



## duro78

pionkej said:


> Duro,
> 
> It's good that you are able to avoid whatever causes the noise by utilizing these temporary workarounds. That being said, your "advice" is frustrating people because it isn't accurate to all installs. I obviously don't know what the issue is, but I know that I have run many calibrations (all without a reset) and do it for AT LEAST the driver and passenger seat each time. I have two MS8's and to date have had ZERO issues. It makes sense to me that these actions don't cause the "jet engine noise", but instead, some install based factor does and IF you do those things (run multiple calibrations/run calibrations for multiple seats) the noise shows up.
> 
> So going around and telling people to reset each time for re-calibration and only measure for one seat isn't good. You may be preventing some people from enjoying all facets of the MS8 and they may never have a problem. I think there should be a "if you experience jet engine noise...do this" thread people can reference until Andy/JBL can get this fixed, but people shouldn't using all the tools the MS8 has to offer because of something that may or may not happen in their install.


Thank you for your post. I can only speak for my own personal experience. Do I know if its the end all solution to the problem, absolutley not. I started a thread not too long ago in frustration due to the noise. I blew about 3 different drivers and I was on my third ms8. Andy contacted me and asked me if I was willing to send my unit in for testing. Along with the message he asked me if I was using l7, 2 or 3way, more than one listening position and there maybe more I don't remember. So I decided to play around with to see if I could stop it from happening. I also started another thread to try an compile the settings of everyone experiencing the noise but that didn't work out too well. The noise always blew my drivers side tweet so I just put a cap on both tweeters. Honestly since I only use one listening position I haven't experienced the noise. There could be other variables but to my knowledge everything else was constant. If I go through calibration and do a second position as soon as I hit done the noise will set in. Now, I'm one user with one ms8 my experience could be completely different from anyone else's. I'm no engineer I don't have a team in my garage testing ms8's. I was just sharing my experience. Based on the info Andy gave me I was under the impression they had a handle on it especially since I wasnt experiencing it by only doing one LP. My issue was the way kaigoss and salami were coming at me a simple question would of sufficed. All I was doing was sharing MY EXPERIENCE. I'm not a so called expert witness to be prosecuted on the stand. Not focused towards you pion sorry.


Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## pionkej

Duro-

No offense taken on my end. I just wanted to point out that those things don't necessarily cause the noise, but if you get the noise, avoiding them has prevented it for you. I have seen people say things like, "I was thinking about getting an MS8, but now I'm worried about it" or "I won't run any other seating positions to avoid the noise" and it frustrates me because they are missing out on a great product/features and may not have the issues you, and others, have had. 

I do agree that while Andy/JBL works on fixing the issues, knowing a workaround is a good thing. So saying, "this things have worked for me" is a positive of sharing your experiences. I just think we should say, "YOU DON'T HAVE TO AVOID THESE FEATURES UNLESS YOU GET THE JET ENGINE NOISE", then people can get the most out of the MS8 and make adjustments if the noise happens, not avoid them altogether.


----------



## Jprice2708

t3sn4f2 said:


> up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, start


AAAAAAAAAHHHHYUKEN!!!!!


----------



## duro78

kaigoss69 said:


> LOL you live happily ever after with your little secret.


Best believe I will. Next time you hear a jet don't look through your sunroof its just your ms8 trying to propel you into the sq heavens
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## Ganderson

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Guys,
> As I've said many times before, we're trying to find a condition under which the noise can be repeated reliably. In order to fix it, we have to know what causes it. I greatly appreciate your help in describing the conditions under which this happens. Everyone's input has been helpful.
> 
> Duro, If I knew exactly what causes this, it would be fixed. We have them set up in labs and we're still trying. I have speculated based on the input here but have not been able to confirm. I know you're frustrated and I'm sorry.



Hi Andy,

As far as giving you a meaningful bug-report, what info/details would you like specifically? Maybe if users can provide you with a more or less standardized set of details it will help you collect this data and solve the problem.

Also, have you personally experienced the issue first hand? Not being able to reliably recreate the problem in the lab is one thing but I'm curious if you've experienced what we're talking about.


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## acidbass303

Jprice2708 said:


> AAAAAAAAAHHHHYUKEN!!!!!


Sonic booom!


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## t3sn4f2

Contra for me.


----------



## acidbass303

t3sn4f2 said:


> Contra for me.


Space invaders @ Atari


----------



## subwoofery

Kelvin


----------



## dblazian33

Installed my MS-8 earlier, but got a bit frustrated trying to get things correct. The volume is low and I hear nothing coming from the passenger side even though the audio test are correct. 

I should probably eat and sleep but I'm going to see if I can find a possible cause before I go to bed lol


----------



## nineball

dblazian33 said:


> Installed my MS-8 earlier, but got a bit frustrated trying to get things correct. The volume is low and I hear nothing coming from the passenger side even though the audio test are correct.
> 
> I should probably eat and sleep but I'm going to see if I can find a possible cause before I go to bed lol


you have your inputs in channels 1 & 5 not 1 & 2.


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## dblazian33

nineball said:


> you have your inputs in channels 1 & 5 not 1 & 2.


You're right. It's funny because I checked my outputs and I realized that 1-4 were on top and 5-8 were on the bottom... obviously I didn't think about the input :blush:

Thanks man, I'm going to retry everything tomorrow.


----------



## thehatedguy

I turned my gains down on my amps when I reran my calibration today...and got a lot more volume out of everything.

Andy can we get a wireless display soon?


----------



## 1sashenka

I also have "sonic boom" in my right front speaker only, and only when hard bass beat hits. Wondering if the JBL is set to close to 0, even at -10 I get it. I calibrated at -35. Wondering if I need to calibrate it at lower volume, so that maybe the sensitivity issue may be avoided, if thats the case, as it might make the unit to sensitive and picks up some interference. 

I also get the thump there, if I close the trunk lid, and the unit is in the trunk. But only left speaker does it in my front stage only set-up with a sub, on a factory unit thru hi-level input. I have two DLS Ultimates running fronts and sub. Just noticed a blip about hooking the sub up to channels 7 and 8, but I have it at 5 and 6. Wonder if thats an issue. 

If I dont blast it, the sound is perfect...Please help with thump issue anyone. My next step will be to try to calibrate at lower JBL volume at around -40 to -50 and see if that somehow fixes it. I did notice floor noise when JBL listening volume is set at 0.

Also, I keep the headphones plugged in the unit, as its stashed away in the tire well under a big box assembled from two pieces to make 15"Xcon fit in the small trunk. Could that be causing some issues?

Also, my factory Hyundai Genesis Coupe head unit starts to take out the bass after around 20 volume setting out of 35. So I try to play music up to 20 on the head unit. Is there a way to get the head unit to stop doing that lowering bass thing?

Thank you


----------



## 1sashenka

1sashenka said:


> I also have "sonic boom" in my right front speaker only, and only when hard bass beat hits. Wondering if the JBL is set to close to 0, even at -10 I get it. I calibrated at -35. Wondering if I need to calibrate it at lower volume, so that maybe the sensitivity issue may be avoided, if thats the case, as it might make the unit to sensitive and picks up some interference.
> 
> I also get the thump there, if I close the trunk lid, and the unit is in the trunk. But only left speaker does it in my front stage only set-up with a sub, on a factory unit thru hi-level input. I have two DLS Ultimates running fronts and sub. Just noticed a blip about hooking the sub up to channels 7 and 8, but I have it at 5 and 6. Wonder if thats an issue.
> 
> If I dont blast it, the sound is perfect...Please help with thump issue anyone. My next step will be to try to calibrate at lower JBL volume at around -40 to -50 and see if that somehow fixes it. I did notice floor noise when JBL listening volume is set at 0.
> 
> Also, I keep the headphones plugged in the unit, as its stashed away in the tire well under a big box assembled from two pieces to make 15"Xcon fit in the small trunk. Could that be causing some issues?
> 
> Also, my factory Hyundai Genesis Coupe head unit starts to take out the bass after around 20 volume setting out of 35. So I try to play music up to 20 on the head unit. Is there a way to get the head unit to stop doing that lowering bass thing?
> 
> Thank you


UPDATE: I found the problem. I have mic plugged in, and it MUST be unplugged. Right side of the mic stays open and picks up noise, and thats whats causing the issue. I troubleshot it by putting my finger on the right mic, and blasted the stereo with pretty retarded bass levels and no problems. If I move my finger gently, all kinds of scratchy noise comes thru. This may very well damage your speakers, gentlemen. If I ever have to go back to MS-8 for anything, like to reset the unit etc, which I hope not, but otherwise I would have to look for a new place for it.

Hope this information helps. Bottom line, UNPLUG YOUR MICS when done calibrating. Pretty annoying though if the unit is stashed away.


----------



## 1sashenka

thehatedguy said:


> I turned my gains down on my amps when I reran my calibration today...and got a lot more volume out of everything.
> 
> Andy can we get a wireless display soon?


Maybe Andy can chime in and explain how you got more volume out of everything, cause I cant explain it, but would love to understand what took place. Obviously, you didnt jack the gains back up after to get more volume, so MS-8 did something, and technical explanation would be great. As for now, my gains are where they should be for a 2v factory head unit, and I presume its 2v, not confirmed.

What I think may have happened here is similar to running calibration at lower volume like -40, so the tones are not as loud, which is the effect you would get by lowering the gains. Thats all I got for now.


----------



## t3sn4f2

1sashenka said:


> UPDATE: I found the problem. I have mic plugged in, and it MUST be unplugged. Right side of the mic stays open and picks up noise, and thats whats causing the issue. I troubleshot it by putting my finger on the right mic, and blasted the stereo with pretty retarded bass levels and no problems. If I move my finger gently, all kinds of scratchy noise comes thru. This may very well damage your speakers, gentlemen. If I ever have to go back to MS-8 for anything, like to reset the unit etc, which I hope not, but otherwise I would have to look for a new place for it.
> 
> Hope this information helps. Bottom line, UNPLUG YOUR MICS when done calibrating. *Pretty annoying though if the unit is stashed away*.


You can buy a quality extension cable in the same format as the mic cable and mount the end somewhere handy. Then just plug the mic into it. Don't coil up the ms-8 mic cable though, just in case it causes an issue. Instead folded it like you would a ribbon cable.


----------



## rain27

The MS-8 manual also mentions to unplug the mic after calibration.


----------



## 1sashenka

t3sn4f2 said:


> You can buy a *quality extension cable* in the same format as the mic cable and mount the end somewhere handy. Then just plug the mic into it. Don't coil up the ms-8 mic cable though, just in case it causes an issue. Instead folded it like you would a ribbon cable.


Im gonna look into that.

And yeah, the manual says mic needs to be unplugged, I didn't think it was gonna cause problems. Manual also says to use only inputs 7 and 8 for subs, unless they are referring to factory sub amp only. Mine is aftermarket and plugged in through 5 and 6. So far, I haven't found an issue with that, but if anyone is aware if I am missing something here, I would love to hear it.


----------



## Nathan_h

t3sn4f2 said:


> You can buy a quality extension cable in the same format as the mic cable and mount the end somewhere handy. Then just plug the mic into it. Don't coil up the ms-8 mic cable though, just in case it causes an issue. Instead folded it like you would a ribbon cable.


Is this quality cable something one can find on, for example, Amazon, or Radio Shack?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Nathan_h said:


> Is this quality cable something one can find on, for example, Amazon, or Radio Shack?


Sure, I didn't mention the specific type of quality cable because I don't recall the type of format it is. Can someone confirm if the bi-mic's termination is a standard TRS mini jack type.

If so, then something like this looks like a good option. I'd confirm with Andy though.

http://www.proaudiosolutions.com/VC1-10-FT-STEREO-MINIJACK-EXTENSION-CABLE-RODE-p/vc1.htm


----------



## south east customz

Radio Shack has then also.


----------



## taibanl

t3sn4f2 said:


> Sure, I didn't mention the specific type of quality cable because I don't recall the type of format it is. Can someone confirm if the bi-mic's termination is a standard TRS mini jack type.
> 
> If so, then something like this looks like a good option. I'd confirm with Andy though.
> 
> VC1, 10 FT STEREO MINIJACK EXTENSION CABLE, RODE


Standard headphone size TRS 3.5mm

Also, the display (on the display end) is TRRS (2.5mm)


----------



## 1sashenka

taibanl said:


> Standard headphone size TRS 3.5mm
> 
> Also, the display (on the display end) is TRRS (2.5mm)



This sounds like a confirmation for both ends. That means I would need an extension cable with this rating TRS 3.5mm.

Thank you

p.s. another possible option is to put insulating tape over the mic hole, perhaps several layers, are there any nice soundproof material tips I could use here? I hope Andy is proofreading this LOL JBL America did not want to give me any support cause Im Canadian, and our rep is useless, cause it goes to answering machine every time, and I never spoke with anyone yet.


----------



## shamie

I read "reset" and "hard reset". What exactly are you guys doing? Pulling a fuse, RCAs, turning the power off? or is there a reset button somewhere?


----------



## duro78

shamie said:


> I read "reset" and "hard reset". What exactly are you guys doing? Pulling a fuse, RCAs, turning the power off? or is there a reset button somewhere?


There's a hard reset button on the ms8 unit. On the display under system settings you can restore default settings

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## taibanl

shamie said:


> I read "reset" and "hard reset". What exactly are you guys doing? Pulling a fuse, RCAs, turning the power off? or is there a reset button somewhere?





duro78 said:


> There's a hard reset button on the ms8 unit. On the display under system settings you can restore default settings
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


The button on the unit is not a "hard" reset. It merely power cycles the unit. 

The restore defaults is the most robust reset you can do.


----------



## duro78

taibanl said:


> The button on the unit is not a "hard" reset. It merely power cycles the unit.
> 
> The restore defaults is the most robust reset you can do.


Your right i mixed up the two. The display offers the best reset option

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## shamie

duro78 said:


> Your right i mixed up the two. The display offers the best reset option
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


So by display you mean through the menu options? Not resetting through removing fuses, power, RCAs, or some hiden reset button?

I guess its not really hidden now that I look at th manual.

So which way(s) is the best?


----------



## jbradle7

*Door Speaker Question (MS-8 power)*

I'm looking to upgrade the front door speakers in my 2010 A4; hoping someone can recommend a good 6.5" woofer that will sound ok powered by the MS-8 internal amp. Budget - I'd like to stay under $200 for the pair.

I was given a set of JL Audio XR650-CSi components, but this is a 4ohm set-up so if I separate them and run active off of my separate MS-8 channels, I'll have 8ohm speakers correct? Don't want to reduce my power output anymore so I'll be looking for a good 4ohm woofer or maybe a 2ohm component set like these JBL P660C:
JBL P660C 6-1/2" 2-way Power Series Component Speakers System

I looked at PartsExpress but was having trouble finding a speaker that would play below 80hz and up to 4khz in a 4ohm configuration. 
Aurum Cantus AC-180F1D 7" DVC Woofer:
Aurum Cantus AC-180F1D 7" DVC Woofer 296-414


Sorry if this is a dumb noob question... any help is greatly appreciated!

Currently running:
-HU: Audi Concert 
-Front Hi: Vifa XT25SC90-04 1" Dual Ring Radiator Tweeter
-Front Low: Audi OEM 6.5 (I think this is an 8ohm speaker?)
-Center:Vifa NE65W-04 2" Full Range Woofer
-Side/Rear (one-way): Audi OEM 6.5 and 3/4" tweeters
-Sub: Massive Audio V10 DVC 4ohm in a small sealed fiberglass enclosure (0.6 cu ft)
-MS-8 powering the front and rear speakers
-Massive Audio N2 powering the sub
Crossover Settings:
-Sub/front 80hz
-Front high/low 3500hz
-Center 500hz
-Side/Rear 100hz


----------



## kaigoss69

*Re: Door Speaker Question (MS-8 power)*



jbradle7 said:


> I'm looking to upgrade the front door speakers in my 2010 A4; hoping someone can recommend a good 6.5" woofer that will sound ok powered by the MS-8 internal amp. Budget - I'd like to stay under $200 for the pair.
> 
> I was given a set of JL Audio XR650-CSi components, but this is a 4ohm set-up so if I separate them and run active off of my separate MS-8 channels, I'll have 8ohm speakers correct? Don't want to reduce my power output anymore so I'll be looking for a good 4ohm woofer or maybe a 2ohm component set like these JBL P660C:
> JBL P660C 6-1/2" 2-way Power Series Component Speakers System
> 
> I looked at PartsExpress but was having trouble finding a speaker that would play below 80hz and up to 4khz in a 4ohm configuration.
> Aurum Cantus AC-180F1D 7" DVC Woofer:
> Aurum Cantus AC-180F1D 7" DVC Woofer 296-414
> 
> 
> Sorry if this is a dumb noob question... any help is greatly appreciated!
> 
> Currently running:
> -HU: Audi Concert
> -Front Hi: Vifa XT25SC90-04 1" Dual Ring Radiator Tweeter
> -Front Low: Audi OEM 6.5 (I think this is an 8ohm speaker?)
> -Center:Vifa NE65W-04 2" Full Range Woofer
> -Side/Rear (one-way): Audi OEM 6.5 and 3/4" tweeters
> -Sub: Massive Audio V10 DVC 4ohm in a small sealed fiberglass enclosure (0.6 cu ft)
> -MS-8 powering the front and rear speakers
> -Massive Audio N2 powering the sub
> Crossover Settings:
> -Sub/front 80hz
> -Front high/low 3500hz
> -Center 500hz
> -Side/Rear 100hz


No, running the JL Audio comps active will be a 4 ohm load. Those are decent speakers so I would try to make them work if I were you. IMO the MS-8 does not have enough power to make a 6.5" woofer play down to 80Hz, so an external amp may be in order, or you can try to run them and see what happens (may need to use 24dB/oct crossovers, and/or raise the HP a bit higher than 80Hz.


----------



## toolsong

*Re: Door Speaker Question (MS-8 power)*



kaigoss69 said:


> IMO the MS-8 does not have enough power to make a 6.5" woofer play down to 80Hz, so an external amp may be in order, or you can try to run them and see what happens (may need to use 24dB/oct crossovers, and/or raise the HP a bit higher than 80Hz.


Exactly what I found 

Until I install my amp, sub-front xover is at 100Hz and 24dB. Bass integration is still superb and up front 99.9% of the time.


----------



## Neil_J

1sashenka said:


> This sounds like a confirmation for both ends. That means I would need an extension cable with this rating TRS 3.5mm.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> p.s. another possible option is to put insulating tape over the mic hole, perhaps several layers, are there any nice soundproof material tips I could use here? I hope Andy is proofreading this LOL JBL America did not want to give me any support cause Im Canadian, and our rep is useless, cause it goes to answering machine every time, and I never spoke with anyone yet.


You guys do know that the ms8's mic jack has a normally-closed contact that opens when the mic plug is physically plugged in, and the ms8 is supposed to use this to sense when the mic is connected, right? If this circuit works as it should, if you use an extension cable, the ms-8 will still sense the mic as being connected. You'd have to solder in a relay or something to defeat this. My pure speculation (take it with a grain of salt) is that the three-pole analog switch IC in the ms8 switches to from channels 4,8 (from memory) to the mic when the mic jack switch/sensor detects that the mic jack is physically plugged in, and leaving an extension cord plugged in would be a bad thing.


----------



## Awdtalon92

*Re: Door Speaker Question (MS-8 power)*



jbradle7 said:


> I'm looking to upgrade the front door speakers in my 2010 A4; hoping someone can recommend a good 6.5" woofer that will sound ok powered by the MS-8 internal amp. Budget - I'd like to stay under $200 for the pair.
> 
> I was given a set of JL Audio XR650-CSi components, but this is a 4ohm set-up so if I separate them and run active off of my separate MS-8 channels, I'll have 8ohm speakers correct? Don't want to reduce my power output anymore so I'll be looking for a good 4ohm woofer or maybe a 2ohm component set like these JBL P660C:
> JBL P660C 6-1/2" 2-way Power Series Component Speakers System
> 
> I looked at PartsExpress but was having trouble finding a speaker that would play below 80hz and up to 4khz in a 4ohm configuration.
> Aurum Cantus AC-180F1D 7" DVC Woofer:
> Aurum Cantus AC-180F1D 7" DVC Woofer 296-414
> 
> 
> Sorry if this is a dumb noob question... any help is greatly appreciated!
> 
> Currently running:
> -HU: Audi Concert
> -Front Hi: Vifa XT25SC90-04 1" Dual Ring Radiator Tweeter
> -Front Low: Audi OEM 6.5 (I think this is an 8ohm speaker?)
> -Center:Vifa NE65W-04 2" Full Range Woofer
> -Side/Rear (one-way): Audi OEM 6.5 and 3/4" tweeters
> -Sub: Massive Audio V10 DVC 4ohm in a small sealed fiberglass enclosure (0.6 cu ft)
> -MS-8 powering the front and rear speakers
> -Massive Audio N2 powering the sub
> Crossover Settings:
> -Sub/front 80hz
> -Front high/low 3500hz
> -Center 500hz
> -Side/Rear 100hz


No, that is a 4 ohm load per speaker. When you run a passive crossover, each speaker plays its own range of frequencies and so only presents its own 4 ohm load to the amp at those frequencies.


----------



## jbradle7

Thanks guys!

Wasn't sure about the ohms and was concerned about tearing into my doors, fabricating adapter rings, baffles, and then having no sound improvement.

Another question... I know I have many problems with my system as currently configured and was wondering what might make the biggest impact to overall sound quality. (I know this is completely subjective but looking for opinions from the "experts" that do this stuff all the time.)

-Modify my center channel baffle and grill panel, allowing me to install a larger center... maybe 3.5" or 4"
-Fabricate angled tweeter housings in the sail panels and relocate my tweeters from the dash corners (currently firing into the windshield)
-New external amp to power front speakers
-All of the above:wacko:

My initial goal was to have a better sounding factory system and was hoping not to have to get too complicated on this build or spend a ton of money. I'm not entering any competitions; I just wanted better dynamic range and improved imaging which I think I've achieved, but I can tell it's just not quite there yet. If I really need to add another amp to power the fronts I suppose I may be willing to do that but prefer to run just my MS-8 for power at this point. Appreciate everyone's feedback.

J


----------



## t3sn4f2

Neil_J said:


> You guys do know that the ms8's mic jack has a normally-closed contact that opens when the mic plug is physically plugged in, and the ms8 is supposed to use this to sense when the mic is connected, right? If this circuit works as it should, if you use an extension cable, the ms-8 will still sense the mic as being connected. You'd have to solder in a relay or something to defeat this. My pure speculation (take it with a grain of salt) is that the three-pole analog switch IC in the ms8 switches to from channels 4,8 (from memory) to the mic when the mic jack switch/sensor detects that the mic jack is physically plugged in, and leaving an extension cord plugged in would be a bad thing.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Guys,
> My mistake. The display doesn't say to unplug the mic. The manual and quick start guide do, though. In every instance (3) of jet engine noise, the mic was plugged in and the subwoofer sweep seemed to be WAY TOO LOUD. Our verification team is now on this and I expect they'll find the cause soon. We're also working on the bluetoth issue.
> 
> Regarding the microphones: They are WM61 clones (since Panasonic no longer supplies those mics). THe reason that those are so popular is because they are so closely matched without a bunch of additional work. The correction file does correct for an average of severalmic capsules, but it also includes correction for the shape and size of the headphone plastic. Using another binaural microphone won't improve the results because the calibration file is designed for our plastic parts. The only difference between the headphone style and an in-ear style would be at very high frequencies. To be absolutely correct, the target curve would then have to be modified to account for that difference.
> 
> Developing a binaural microphone, a correction filter for it and a target curve that takes all that into account and achieves a desired result is no small feat and has taken months of work in correlating listening tests, measurements with standard micropones and microphone arrays using a dummy head in the car and in a chamber. I'm not inclined to make that work public or to make modification easy, because we won't be able to assure good performance if we do.
> 
> In all of the emails and PM's Adam and I have received, there's one theme that is consistent--that the target curve is good for the vast majority of people and that the autotune, which is the most important feature, provides great results when a few rules are followed.
> 
> I can't reiterate often enough that if the sweeps are too loud, the results won't be good. The sub sweep should definitely NOT be loud--no rattling of the trunk or bass you can feel. Just a simple low-volume sweep. If you want more bass than about 9dB above the rest and you have the subwoofer level control maxed in MS-8, then adjust your sub gain AFTER you do acoustic calibration.
> 
> And for God's sake, please unplug the mic when you're done. *You can use an extension cable if you want to*.


Maybe he took at it extending the mic cable but still unplugging the extention on the ms-8 side?


----------



## dowheelies

If Neil is indeed correct I wasted a bunch of time searching for a dash/panel mounted extension last night..... 

I was leaning towards this Stereo 3.5mm Panel-Mount Audio Cable -- DataPro

I wanted to somewhat bury the MS-8 and though that would do the trick to not have easy access to it but if I have to get to the plug anyway its pretty much redondant...

Eric


----------



## taibanl

Andy has previously signed off on the use of extensions.


----------



## eviling

dowheelies said:


> If Neil is indeed correct I wasted a bunch of time searching for a dash/panel mounted extension last night.....
> 
> I was leaning towards this Stereo 3.5mm Panel-Mount Audio Cable -- DataPro
> 
> I wanted to somewhat bury the MS-8 and though that would do the trick to not have easy access to it but if I have to get to the plug anyway its pretty much redondant...
> 
> Eric


not sure what your talking about but judging from that cable linked you wanted to have a mounting jack on your dash for the screen cable, but they use some kind of special cord ive never seen anything like it, its also not 3.5 its like 2.5 I believe.


----------



## 14642

*Re: Door Speaker Question (MS-8 power)*



jbradle7 said:


> I'm looking to upgrade the front door speakers in my 2010 A4; hoping someone can recommend a good 6.5" woofer that will sound ok powered by the MS-8 internal amp. Budget - I'd like to stay under $200 for the pair.
> 
> I was given a set of JL Audio XR650-CSi components, but this is a 4ohm set-up so if I separate them and run active off of my separate MS-8 channels, I'll have 8ohm speakers correct? Don't want to reduce my power output anymore so I'll be looking for a good 4ohm woofer or maybe a 2ohm component set like these JBL P660C:
> JBL P660C 6-1/2" 2-way Power Series Component Speakers System
> 
> I looked at PartsExpress but was having trouble finding a speaker that would play below 80hz and up to 4khz in a 4ohm configuration.
> Aurum Cantus AC-180F1D 7" DVC Woofer:
> Aurum Cantus AC-180F1D 7" DVC Woofer 296-414
> 
> 
> Sorry if this is a dumb noob question... any help is greatly appreciated!
> 
> Currently running:
> -HU: Audi Concert
> -Front Hi: Vifa XT25SC90-04 1" Dual Ring Radiator Tweeter
> -Front Low: Audi OEM 6.5 (I think this is an 8ohm speaker?)
> -Center:Vifa NE65W-04 2" Full Range Woofer
> -Side/Rear (one-way): Audi OEM 6.5 and 3/4" tweeters
> -Sub: Massive Audio V10 DVC 4ohm in a small sealed fiberglass enclosure (0.6 cu ft)
> -MS-8 powering the front and rear speakers
> -Massive Audio N2 powering the sub
> Crossover Settings:
> -Sub/front 80hz
> -Front high/low 3500hz
> -Center 500hz
> -Side/Rear 100hz


Before you go any further, please note that MS-8 isn't compatible with the B and O system. The signal processing in the car prevents the MS-8 from seeing the signal from the setup CD.


----------



## Neil_J

eviling said:


> not sure what your talking about but judging from that cable linked you wanted to have a mounting jack on your dash for the screen cable, but they use some kind of special cord ive never seen anything like it, its also not 3.5 its like 2.5 I believe.


The mic jack is indeed a standard headphone jack 1/8" TRS connector. I've used an extension, but I play it safe and disconnect a the MS-8. 

The display port OTOH is a 2.5mm 4-conductor that is going to be impossible to buy without a minimum order of several thousand pieces.


----------



## jbradle7

*Re: Door Speaker Question (MS-8 power)*



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Before you go any further, please note that MS-8 isn't compatible with the B and O system. The signal processing in the car prevents the MS-8 from seeing the signal from the setup CD.


Thanks Andy, I have Concert Audio (Non-B&O). Install completed in December and everything has been operating fine, just having a little trouble getting that optimum tune.

That small center channel speaker is probably a big part of my problems. When the speaker is crossed at 400hz or below, imaging is great but there is a lack of mid-bass; when the speaker is crossed higher (above 500hz), the mid-bass is good but the imaging definitely suffers. I've read into the inherent issues caused be running such a small speaker and I think I may need to modify some things in my dash to incorporate a larger speaker... maybe a 3" or 4". 

Do you think moving from a 2" to a 4" speaker would make a big difference?


----------



## taibanl

Neil_J said:


> The mic jack is indeed a standard headphone jack 1/8" TRS connector. I've used an extension, but I play it safe and disconnect a the MS-8.
> 
> The display port OTOH is a 2.5mm 4-conductor that is going to be impossible to buy without a minimum order of several thousand pieces.


2.5mm trrs. I already have a source. Does anyone need one?


----------



## Neil_J

taibanl said:


> 2.5mm trrs. I already have a source. Does anyone need one?


Ahh.. I did see that on my phone / tapatalk but completely forgot. Glad to see it's more common than I originally thought (just a google search or two away)


----------



## slinger1

Anyone using a remote gain for subs??......i still have my remote knob from my sub amp hooked up..It only boosts lower freqs...


----------



## shamie

slinger1 said:


> Anyone using a remote gain for subs??......i still have my remote knob from my sub amp hooked up..It only boosts lower freqs...


Yes - why?


----------



## slinger1

Was just wonder'n.........before i installed the MS8 my subs were alot more powerful sounding and if i cranked on the remote gain then they could "overpower" the rest of my system on heavy bass songs...Now they sound ok but are the weakst part of my system and even the remote wont make a big change in the bass......Was thinking with the remote unplugged in the MS8 would improve my sub stage...


----------



## subwoofery

slinger1 said:


> Was just wonder'n.........before i installed the MS8 my subs were alot more powerful sounding and if i cranked on the remote gain then they could "overpower" the rest of my system on heavy bass songs...Now they sound ok but are the weakst part of my system and even the remote wont make a big change in the bass......Was thinking with the remote unplugged in the MS8 would improve my sub stage...


Maybe you're just not used to "audiophile bass"  

Kelvin


----------



## minbari

slinger1 said:


> Anyone using a remote gain for subs??......i still have my remote knob from my sub amp hooked up..It only boosts lower freqs...


then its not a remote gain, its a remote EQ knob. most of those knobs boost 40hz up to 12db, that is NOT a gain knob.


----------



## shamie

minbari said:


> then its not a remote gain, its a remote EQ knob. most of those knobs boost 40hz up to 12db, that is NOT a gain knob.


Mine is a "remote gain" in line between the MS-8 and the amp. I use it for easily adjusting the sub for various songs. Much easier (and quicker) than navigating through the MS-8 menu.


----------



## slinger1

minbari said:


> then its not a remote gain, its a remote EQ knob. most of those knobs boost 40hz up to 12db, that is NOT a gain knob.


yep.....says 0-12db at 30-80hz....

RE Audio XTX3000.1


----------



## alachua

slinger1 said:


> Was just wonder'n.........before i installed the MS8 my subs were alot more powerful sounding and if i cranked on the remote gain then they could "overpower" the rest of my system on heavy bass songs...Now they sound ok but are the weakst part of my system and even the remote wont make a big change in the bass......Was thinking with the remote unplugged in the MS8 would improve my sub stage...


Have you tried following Andy's advice on *lowering* the sub gain and recalibrating? I took my sub from completely missing to great sounding by setting the gain to 2v (min on my JL slash with the level selector in the low position).


----------



## slinger1

alachua said:


> Have you tried following Andy's advice on *lowering* the sub gain and recalibrating? I took my sub from completely missing to great sounding by setting the gain to 2v (min on my JL slash with the level selector in the low position).


yes .....i have lowered the gains on all amps but think i still need to go lower...when playing cd's if i hit mute i start getting the background hiss at about 10 on my HU volume...I think its because my amps arent level matched and gains are too high..

Also subwoofery is probaly correct too...this is my first system directed more toward SQ so im used to the booming bass thats several db's above everything else....


----------



## 1sashenka

My 15" sealed Xcon on 1200 wrms is ridiculously loud on MS-8 settings, with properly gains set at 2v with factory head unit and DLS Ultimate amp, I even have to lower it about eight increments down from center. And if I set the subsonic at 20hz/6db not 12db like JBL recommends and I actually also prefer it, my roof starts to flex, and my car is deadened everywhere: floor, trunk, lid, tire wells, all over...

Very pleased with MS-8's calibration capability.


----------



## Sean Morrison

My display screen just went blank. I checked connections at both ends and they were both fine. Where can a purchase a new display panel? Pretty sure its out of warranty since I'm the third owner.


----------



## Sean Morrison

Well, I just got off the phone with JBL and the display panels are on backorder. I guess they've had a lot of problems with them just "going blank" They also don't have a date when they expect to get more. 

This is just great - now I've got a unit that I can't re-tune. Does anyone know of a way to plug in a laptop and make adjustments that way?


----------



## jbradle7

There is a ton of potential upgrades with the display and interface... I wish they would get some more development money together and dive in. It would be great to have a touch-screen option or nicer display with a better quality remote too. Tablet, iPhone options would be great too or how about wireless all together.

Sorry, I know most of these options have been mentioned before but here's to wishing.


----------



## Ganderson

jbradle7 said:


> There is a ton of potential upgrades with the display and interface... I wish they would get some more development money together and dive in. It would be great to have a touch-screen option or nicer display with a better quality remote too. Tablet, iPhone options would be great too or how about wireless all together.
> 
> Sorry, I know most of these options have been mentioned before but here's to wishing.


If they haven't been able to put together a basic firmware update for bug fixes by now it would seem that support (other than Andy's online presence) let alone development for this platform is pretty much dead.

That is too bad because the hardware seems robust enough that it could support a couple generations of software improvements before phasing it out.

Companies have priorities though and I don't think the MS-8 is anywhere near the top of Harman's list.


----------



## Neil_J

Sean Morrison said:


> This is just great - now I've got a unit that I can't re-tune. Does anyone know of a way to plug in a laptop and make adjustments that way?


 I don't think JBL/Harmann has any plans to do one officially. I was going to reverse engineer and make such a device, but I decided instead to get rid of my ms-8 and go with a different processor


----------



## subwoofery

Neil_J said:


> I don't think JBL/Harmann has any plans to do one officially. I was going to reverse engineer and make such a device, but I decided instead to get rid of my ms-8 and go with a different processor


Yeah... I saw your thread. Really felt you had the knowledge and the BALLS to do it. Shame you went with another processor  

Kelvin


----------



## Neil_J

subwoofery said:


> Yeah... I saw your thread. Really felt you had the knowledge and the BALLS to do it. Shame you went with another processor
> 
> Kelvin


It's a shame, because I absolutely LOVE the Logic7 mode. The thought had crossed my mind to keep the ms8 and put it in defeat mode, outputting five channels to a manually controlled processor.. The only problem in my case is space 

Getting the ms8 to autotune and T/A in a Mini seems to be a real problem for a lot of people (path lengths absolutely SUCK, btw, compared to a bigger car). I've probably read the instructions more than anyone, and have read this entire thread and all the faqs. I know Andy did it once apon a time with an R56 but I believe he was using a center channel.


----------



## subwoofery

Neil_J said:


> It's a shame, because I absolutely LOVE the Logic7 mode. The thought had crossed my mind to keep the ms8 and put it in defeat mode, outputting five channels to a manually controlled processor.. The only problem in my case is space
> 
> Getting the ms8 to autotune and T/A in a Mini seems to be a real problem for a lot of people (path lengths absolutely SUCK, btw, compared to a bigger car). I've probably read the instructions more than anyone, and have read this entire thread and all the faqs. I know Andy did it once apon a time with an R56 but I believe he was using a center channel.


Yes, the more I read, the more I believe small cars really need a center channel for the L7 to really work its magic... 

Kelvin


----------



## Neil_J

subwoofery said:


> Yes, the more I read, the more I believe small cars really need a center channel for the L7 to really work its magic...
> 
> Kelvin


Just another excuse to cut my dash 

I heard 12V Dave's Chrysler 300C at SBN that had a center channel, it sounded really good. But what amazed me more, were the 2-channel cars that had dead-nuts T/A and crazy center imaging.. Like magic. With my car I get is this big amorphous blob of sound :-/


----------



## taibanl

Actually i have my center out right now doing a passive xover delete and so i have L7 off. Center image is still there right where it always was. Actually sounds like its coming out of the empty hole in my dash! Shame its not working on the mini that way


----------



## [email protected]

Neil_J said:


> *With my car I get is this big amorphous blob of sound* :-/


Did you tried to elaborate why it sucks? It is only the center of the stage thats missing or the tonality to?
Something i found out (no center, no sub) is that if the volume of the sweeps is to quiet the ms-8 had problems to set the TA right, the stage sounded diffused. 
If i calibrated to loud (not that loud to clip the mic with the midbass, still -40) the stage was centerd but had a boost about 10dB at my HP Crossover point of the MB ---> amp clipped.
Also i had to lower the 300- 800Hz Range.

Maybe i should post pictures in the Tips and Tricks Thread 



Regards Barney


----------



## 14642

Sean, check your PM.

Neil, there's noting inherent in a Mini that makes MS-8 not work Something else is up. You don't need a center speaker for a center image--in one seat at a time.


----------



## Neil_J

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Neil, there's noting inherent in a Mini that makes MS-8 not work Something else is up. You don't need a center speaker for a center image--in one seat at a time.


Andy, could I PM you or call you with some questions about getting it to image properly, trust me it's the absolute last resort to request help from you. As I've said, I've calibrated at every level between 50 dB and 95 dB with most being in the 80s range, I was using an SPL meter playing pink noise to come up with those levels. It certainly gets me in the ballpark, but it's a blob, like I mentioned. I have my speakers placed exactly as you recommend (tweets in pillar crossed high, mids are high in door, and midbass is bottom door). Tonality isn't bad, maybe a little bright for some people, I'd say it's more flat. I like it that way, it gives great impact when played loud. But as I said, the center image is non-existent. The IASCA staging technical track seems like the center stage person is talking from both left and right stage simultaneously.


----------



## taibanl

Anyone know cost of a Display? Ine works fine but has some scratches on the bezel. Is a bezel replacement possible?


----------



## 14642

Neil_J said:


> Andy, could I PM you or call you with some questions about getting it to image properly, trust me it's the absolute last resort to request help from you. As I've said, I've calibrated at every level between 50 dB and 95 dB with most being in the 80s range, I was using an SPL meter playing white noise to come up with those levels. It certainly gets me in the ballpark, but it's a blob, like I mentioned. I have my speakers placed exactly as you recommend (tweets in pillar crossed high, mids are high in door, and midbass is bottom door). Tonality isn't bad, maybe a little bright for some people, I'd say it's more flat. I like it that way, it gives great impact when played loud. But as I said, the center image is non-existent. The IASCA staging technical track seems like the center stage person is talking from both left and right stage simultaneously.


It has to be one mid or one midbass out of phase. All active or passive between mid and tweeter?


----------



## taibanl

Low or High amp input for MS-8 output?

(Factory HU is BMW Professional in HiFi config..capable of 5v (max) to MS-8...Unity gain should result in 2.v out of Ms-8

The “Low” position of the “Input Voltage” switch selects an input sensitivity range between
200mV and 2V for all the amplifier channels. If you are using an aftermarket source unit, with preamp- level outputs, this is most likely the position that you will use (regardless of what voltage output capability is claimed by the source unit).
The “High” position of the “Input Voltage” switch selects an input sensitivity range between 800mV and 8V.


Edit: what do you all recommend....should I use the JL Remote Level control as a killswitch in case my MS-8 goes bezerk? Its merely an input attenuator so it should be ideal for that.


----------



## duro78

Has anyone been experiencing a terrible turn on/off pop noise on any of the channels?. After swapping out amps one day I started having the pop noise on ch4 ( r-mid). The driver would come fully out as if I hooked a AA battery to it. It also happened when I hit mute. I put a cheapo amp in temporarily so I thought the amp was screwed but when I put two other amps in its place same problem. Tonight I unplugged ch 4 and had no noise at all. So I've figured out the noise is being caused by ch 4 on the ms8. After searching others have just exchanged their units, I haven't seen a remedy. The ch works perfectly fine its just the popping noise. Could it be a a bad sheild idk?

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## kaigoss69

taibanl said:


> Low or High amp input for MS-8 output?
> 
> (Factory HU is BMW Professional in HiFi config..capable of 5v (max) to MS-8...Unity gain should result in 2.v out of Ms-8
> 
> The “Low” position of the “Input Voltage” switch selects an input sensitivity range between
> 200mV and 2V for all the amplifier channels. If you are using an aftermarket source unit, with preamp- level outputs, this is most likely the position that you will use (regardless of what voltage output capability is claimed by the source unit).
> The “High” position of the “Input Voltage” switch selects an input sensitivity range between 800mV and 8V.
> 
> 
> Edit: what do you all recommend....should I use the JL Remote Level control as a killswitch in case my MS-8 goes bezerk? Its merely an input attenuator so it should be ideal for that.


RCA = Low
Speaker Level = High

If you use RCA inputs on the HD amps and switch to "high" then you have to set the gains to about 3/4 to get the same volume as with "low" at min gain.

Related to this, I'm still waiting on an answer though on my previous question...what is the better input for the HD amps...RCA outs or speaker outs from MS-8.


----------



## t3sn4f2

kaigoss69 said:


> RCA = Low
> Speaker Level = High
> 
> If you use RCA inputs on the HD amps and switch to "high" then you have to set the gains to about 3/4 to get the same volume as with "low" at min gain.
> 
> *Related to this, I'm still waiting on an answer though on my previous question...what is the better input for the HD amps...RCA outs or speaker outs from MS-8*.


On those amps, _my_ vote goes to rca.


----------



## BuickGN

Funny this thread was toward the top I was going to dig it up right now.

I'm not sure if anyone else has done this but it has really helped with the dynamics and making the subs much sharper, "quicker" hitting. I actually did two tunes, both from the driver's seat. On the "driver" setting I did a tune as normal. On the "passenger" setting (from the driver's seat) I ran the first set of sweeps as usual but covered up the mics for the other 3 eq sweeps. Doing two seats I'm able to directly compare the two tunes back to back with half a second between.

The first one sounds like usual, missing dynamics. The second actually sounds great. It's a little bass heavy, had to cut back the subs just a little but even being bass heavy they blended better and were less muddy. The whole system sounds more alive. I'm thinking more and more everyday to use the MS8 for TA and for the sub control and eq and that's it. Apparently the auto EQ does not like me. Doing it this way seems to make it 100% repeatable and consistent. This does not sound as good as that one in a million tune that I've gotten maybe 3 times since I've owned the MS8 that sounds magical but it's better than at least 90% or more of the auto tunes.

I would be interested if anyone has or could try this and post results.


----------



## pionkej

BuickGN said:


> Funny this thread was toward the top I was going to dig it up right now.
> 
> I'm not sure if anyone else has done this but it has really helped with the dynamics and making the subs much sharper, "quicker" hitting. I actually did two tunes, both from the driver's seat. On the "driver" setting I did a tune as normal. On the "passenger" setting (from the driver's seat) I ran the first set of sweeps as usual but covered up the mics for the other 3 eq sweeps. Doing two seats I'm able to directly compare the two tunes back to back with half a second between.
> 
> The first one sounds like usual, missing dynamics. The second actually sounds great. It's a little bass heavy, had to cut back the subs just a little but even being bass heavy they blended better and were less muddy. The whole system sounds more alive. I'm thinking more and more everyday to use the MS8 for TA and for the sub control and eq and that's it. Apparently the auto EQ does not like me. Doing it this way seems to make it 100% repeatable and consistent. This does not sound as good as that one in a million tune that I've gotten maybe 3 times since I've owned the MS8 that sounds magical but it's better than at least 90% or more of the auto tunes.
> 
> I would be interested if anyone has or could try this and post results.


What did you cover the mic with?


----------



## 14642

duro78 said:


> Has anyone been experiencing a terrible turn on/off pop noise on any of the channels?. After swapping out amps one day I started having the pop noise on ch4 ( r-mid). The driver would come fully out as if I hooked a AA battery to it. It also happened when I hit mute. I put a cheapo amp in temporarily so I thought the amp was screwed but when I put two other amps in its place same problem. Tonight I unplugged ch 4 and had no noise at all. So I've figured out the noise is being caused by ch 4 on the ms8. After searching others have just exchanged their units, I haven't seen a remedy. The ch works perfectly fine its just the popping noise. Could it be a a bad sheild idk?
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


With the unit on, measure DC voltage between the RCA shield and the center of the RCA output. If you measure more than a few mV, then there's DC there and that's causing the pop. If that's the case, try resetting to factory defaults in the system menu and recalibrate. If that doesn't do it, we'll replace the unit.


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> On those amps, _my_ vote goes to rca.


If you use RCA and you have no engine noise, then those are the bast ones. If youj have noise, you can try speaker out. That will completely prevent a ground loop.


----------



## 14642

BuickGN said:


> Funny this thread was toward the top I was going to dig it up right now.
> 
> I'm not sure if anyone else has done this but it has really helped with the dynamics and making the subs much sharper, "quicker" hitting. I actually did two tunes, both from the driver's seat. On the "driver" setting I did a tune as normal. On the "passenger" setting (from the driver's seat) I ran the first set of sweeps as usual but covered up the mics for the other 3 eq sweeps. Doing two seats I'm able to directly compare the two tunes back to back with half a second between.
> 
> The first one sounds like usual, missing dynamics. The second actually sounds great. It's a little bass heavy, had to cut back the subs just a little but even being bass heavy they blended better and were less muddy. The whole system sounds more alive. I'm thinking more and more everyday to use the MS8 for TA and for the sub control and eq and that's it. Apparently the auto EQ does not like me. Doing it this way seems to make it 100% repeatable and consistent. This does not sound as good as that one in a million tune that I've gotten maybe 3 times since I've owned the MS8 that sounds magical but it's better than at least 90% or more of the auto tunes.
> 
> I would be interested if anyone has or could try this and post results.


So, if you covered the mics, then there was probably no EQ. I don't understand why your results aren't repeatable using the mics as they were intended to be.used. When I tune cars with this thing, the tune is the same every time--or damn close. Why don't you try re-tuning and not moving your head to see if that's consistent.


----------



## BuickGN

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So, if you covered the mics, then there was probably no EQ. I don't understand why your results aren't repeatable using the mics as they were intended to be.used. When I tune cars with this thing, the tune is the same every time--or damn close. Why don't you try re-tuning and not moving your head to see if that's consistent.


I can give it a shot. I wish I had never changed it when I had that perfect tune. I had some really high crossover points- 90/1,600/8,000 and after several tunes the stage was wider than the car and out on the hood, it was perfection. Since then, everything has gone downhill. My subs have gotten really muddy and a board member confirmed that yesterday. I still haven't gotten my RTA back but I have to cut 50hz by 10db, 63hz by 8db, and 80hz by 3db, and boost 20-32hz by 6db.

The subs have given this problem before and luckily I had an RTA at the time and it showed exactly what I was hearing. I had to cut and boost as above. Once I started running the calibration disk each time and doing all tuning with the engine off everything was great. I chalked it up to user error.

For a while, things were very consistent, consistently good. Lately the tweeters have been getting brighter and brighter to the point of being harsh and Dyns really aren't known for being harsh. I've tried the mid to tweeter crossover point from 2.2khz to 10khz. And the subs have been getting muddy and not blending at all. Even with the sub amp waaay down to where you can barely hear the subs they still don't blend, they're not transparent at all. Covering up the mics brings that back, even with the subs a bit hot, they blend well. Do these mics get out of calibration over time? I've done a lot of calibrations and I've left them plugged in for a couple days by accident.

The only thing that has changed is I sealed up a few small gaps between the sub baffle and car.


----------



## taibanl

t3sn4f2 said:


> On those amps, _my_ vote goes to rca.


The HD INPUT LEVEL is merely a switch setting. The inputs run through rca either way. 

The question was whether its better to select an input with a 2v limit knowing that the ma-8 can overshoot by .8v or just select high level


----------



## 14642

taibanl said:


> The HD INPUT LEVEL is merely a switch setting. The inputs run through rca either way.
> 
> The question was whether its better to select an input with a 2v limit knowing that the ma-8 can overshoot by .8v or just select high level


 
Use the RCAs, put the switch in low and turn the gain all the way down. Yes, 2V is fine. This is really no big deal.


----------



## t3sn4f2

taibanl said:


> The HD INPUT LEVEL is merely a switch setting. The inputs run through rca either way.
> 
> The question was whether its better to select an input with a 2v limit knowing that the ma-8 can overshoot by .8v or just select high level


Sorry, I didn't remember the original question. I thought you were asking if it's better to use the ms-8 speaker level outputs or its RCA outs. That's what me and Andy were answering in reference to.

As to which setting is better, its not a matter of better or worse. The switch just picks between two voltage dividers of different potential. If the .2 sounds like its clipping or compressing it the lowest setting for the given source voltage then you select .8 and move it a little further down then the 2 volt mark. I doubt however you'll notice the difference between the two with music playing.


----------



## Neil_J

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> It has to be one mid or one midbass out of phase. All active or passive between mid and tweeter?


Three-way active up front and channels 7,8 to the subs. My rear speakers aren't currently wired up. Logic 7 is disabled.

I've checked, re-checked, (and as of this morning, re-re-checked) and I'm 110% sure that all of my speaker polarities are wired correctly. I can flip a phase on a mid or midbass, but that would "flipping it out of phase", which I've been told is a Bad Thing. I'll probably try that anyway just to see what happens.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Neil_J said:


> Three-way active up front and channels 7,8 to the subs. My rear speakers aren't currently wired up. Logic 7 is disabled.
> 
> I've checked, re-checked, (and as of this morning, re-re-checked) and I'm 110% sure that all of my speaker polarities are wired correctly. I can flip a phase on a mid or midbass, but that would "flipping it out of phase", which I've been told is a Bad Thing. I'll probably try that anyway just to see what happens.


Have you tried running 2 way plus sub. If it improves then you might have a direction for the trouble area. For the ms-8 or the next processor.


----------



## 14642

Neil,
If you plug an ipod into the auxiliary input, does it still sound like a big blob or does it get well? This is an important thing to check and will tell us if it's an input issue or an output issue.


----------



## Neil_J

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Neil,
> If you plug an ipod into the auxiliary input, does it still sound like a big blob or does it get well? This is an important thing to check and will tell us if it's an input issue or an output issue.


The MS-8 auxillary input jack is all I've been using since the SBN event. Unfortunately the factory high-level signal coming out of my CD player wasn't good enough to use for the competition, so I ripped the IASCA and MECA CD's to lossless on the iPad instead.


----------



## djcwardog

*I finally got JBL's MS-8 processor!*

Guys,

I have been reading these posts for several years - and I finally got an MS-8 installed in my vehicle as a DIY project. What a superb piece of engineering this unit is! It does a fine job of taking the speaker-level outputs from my stock RSC radio (2010 Dodge Ram ST Hemi Regular Cab, Long-Bed pickup) and turning that into a 7.1 channel experience. I use the Logic 7, did the auto calibration (several times already - palying with crossover points, etc...), and the sound stage is just awesome. Yes - this truck actually rides quiet enough to warrant this level of interest... 

Andy - many thanks to you for putting up with many of the earlier posts that would have made me just go away...

I'll have to do a search here and see what the experts are saying is a good first step in choosing crossover points. My setup - all JL Audio CX series:

5/14" in each door (reg cab, so only one door on each side) as Front Low (L and R of course), 3/12" at each stock dash corner location as Front High. Identical 3/12" in stock center location, two more identical 5 1/4" in the rears locations (set as "Side L and R" as it won't let me choose rears with no sides...?), and then Channel 8 - a single subwoofer output to a Kicker powered sub box - 10" - not the best but it fits in the storage tray behind the seat. I do have a nice JL 10" in a bigger box and an Alpine sub amp, but using those would require mods to the center seat...maybe later. I picked up the stock door speaker wiring as my stereo inputs to the MS-8 based on recommendations I received for it to be the only full-range output. My truck came with 6 speakers but is non-Alpine.

So far I am accepting the 3500 crossover point for the front 2-ways and letting it stay at 80 Hz. Choosing 50 hz resulted in overdriving the 5 1/4" speakers for low bass, I stopped that right away! I think I will try 65 or 70 to pick up just a bit more mid-bass presence when accounting for the 24db slope...

I am now thinking of swapping out the stock radio for an aftermarket unit that does everything but navigation - that would allow me to run a simple pair of RCA outs to the MS-8 with no need to use the test CD. By the way, the test CD would not read in my stock RSC head unit so I found the file and ripped it to my iPod. This got it calibrated that way just fine as an Aux In source...

Thanks!


----------



## jbradle7

*Center Channel Help (Audi A4)*

Found this old link while doing research:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/85018-ms-8-center-channel-speaker-5.html

I'm interested in improving my not ideally-sized center channel speaker. I've tried running no center and much prefer the improved imaging having a center provides... even if it is smaller than what is optimum for the MS-8.

Currently running:
-HU: Audi Concert
-Front Hi: Vifa XT25SC90-04 1" Dual Ring Radiator Tweeter
-Front Low: Audi OEM 6.5
-Center:Vifa NE65W-04 2" Full Range Woofer
-Side/Rear (one-way): Audi OEM 6.5 and 3/4" tweeters
-Sub: Massive Audio V10 DVC 4ohm in a small sealed fiberglass enclosure (0.6 cu ft)
-MS-8 powering front and rear speakers
-Massive Audio N2 powering sub

Crossover Settings:
-Subsonic 30hz (12db)
-Sub/front 100hz (24db)
-Front high/low 3900hz (24db)
-Center 200hz (24db)
-Side/Rear 100hz (24db)

What do you guys think about using a Fountek FR89EX 3" Full Range - 4 ohm
Fountek FR89EX 3" Full Range - 4 ohm: Madisound Speaker Store

Whatever I do, I have to get it to fit in here without hacking up the dash:








I think I can cut out the existing baffle and fore-aft plastic supports without affecting any of the other systems in the car (HVAC etc.) I can use the grill (not pictured) and build a fiberglass enclosure of appropriate size to fit down inside the dash.

Thoughts?

Thanks!
J


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: I finally got JBL's MS-8 processor!*



djcwardog said:


> Guys,
> 
> I have been reading these posts for several years - and I finally got an MS-8 installed in my vehicle as a DIY project. What a superb piece of engineering this unit is! It does a fine job of taking the speaker-level outputs from my stock RSC radio (2010 Dodge Ram ST Hemi Regular Cab, Long-Bed pickup) and turning that into a 7.1 channel experience. I use the Logic 7, did the auto calibration (several times already - palying with crossover points, etc...), and the sound stage is just awesome. Yes - this truck actually rides quiet enough to warrant this level of interest...
> 
> Andy - many thanks to you for putting up with many of the earlier posts that would have made me just go away...
> 
> I'll have to do a search here and see what the experts are saying is a good first step in choosing crossover points. My setup - all JL Audio CX series:
> 
> 5/14" in each door (reg cab, so only one door on each side) as Front Low (L and R of course), 3/12" at each stock dash corner location as Front High. Identical 3/12" in stock center location, two more identical 5 1/4" in the rears locations (set as "Side L and R" as it won't let me choose rears with no sides...?), and then Channel 8 - a single subwoofer output to a Kicker powered sub box - 10" - not the best but it fits in the storage tray behind the seat. I do have a nice JL 10" in a bigger box and an Alpine sub amp, but using those would require mods to the center seat...maybe later. I picked up the stock door speaker wiring as my stereo inputs to the MS-8 based on recommendations I received for it to be the only full-range output. My truck came with 6 speakers but is non-Alpine.
> 
> So far I am accepting the 3500 crossover point for the front 2-ways and letting it stay at 80 Hz. Choosing 50 hz resulted in overdriving the 5 1/4" speakers for low bass, I stopped that right away! I think I will try 65 or 70 to pick up just a bit more mid-bass presence when accounting for the 24db slope...
> 
> I am now thinking of swapping out the stock radio for an aftermarket unit that does everything but navigation - that would allow me to run a simple pair of RCA outs to the MS-8 with no need to use the test CD. By the way, the test CD would not read in my stock RSC head unit so I found the file and ripped it to my iPod. This got it calibrated that way just fine as an Aux In source...
> 
> Thanks!


You can bring down the front and center high pass significantly. 3500Hz is tweeter territory. Those 3.5" can come down all the way to ~200Hz but with limited output. I'd try 200Hz at 24dB for all three, but especially for the center.


----------



## bap4201

Hey guys, can you help me out with a question about the MS-8. I have the following setup:

Kenwood DDX719 HU -----> JBL MS-8 -----> Alpine Amp -----> (Front)CL-6E32 3 way component speakers by CDT Audio ; Rear JBL OEM Factory speakers will replace.

Should I use the passive crossover that came with the CL-6E32 3 way components. It was designed for these speakers, or should I let the MS-8 actively cross them over?

When I go to tune the MS-8 do i choose 3 way front or 1 way? Thanks!


----------



## AndyInOC

bap4201 said:


> Hey guys, can you help me out with a question about the MS-8. I have the following setup:
> 
> Kenwood DDX719 HU -----> JBL MS-8 -----> Alpine Amp -----> (Front)CL-6E32 3 way component speakers by CDT Audio ; Rear JBL OEM Factory speakers will replace.
> 
> Should I use the passive crossover that came with the CL-6E32 3 way components. It was designed for these speakers, or should I let the MS-8 actively cross them over
> 
> When I go to tune the MS-8 do i choose 3 way front or 1 way? Thanks!



How many channels does your amp have? I personally am a big fan of active, but it takes time & patience & lots of studying to really get it right. If you choose to let the ms8 actively cross your components you will choose 3way on front, if you use the passives you will choose 1way.


----------



## bap4201

Thanks for your reply. Amp only has 4 channels. I could, however, pickup a 6 channel amp for the front if you really think it is worth it.


----------



## AndyInOC

bap4201 said:


> Thanks for your reply. Amp only has 4 channels. I could, however, pickup a 6 channel amp for the front if you really think it is worth it.


No problem. Save your $ and play with passive for a while and then if you want to experiment jump into active down the road.


----------



## taibanl

bap4201 said:


> Thanks for your reply. Amp only has 4 channels. I could, however, pickup a 6 channel amp for the front if you really think it is worth it.


Imo use ms-8 channels for any drivers not within a few inches of each other. If they are close though use passives to save ms-8 channels for rears


----------



## jbradle7

*Re: Center Channel Help (Audi A4)*



jbradle7 said:


> Found this old link while doing research:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/85018-ms-8-center-channel-speaker-5.html
> 
> I'm interested in improving my not ideally-sized center channel speaker. I've tried running no center and much prefer the improved imaging having a center provides... even if it is smaller than what is optimum for the MS-8.
> 
> Currently running:
> -HU: Audi Concert
> -Front Hi: Vifa XT25SC90-04 1" Dual Ring Radiator Tweeter
> -Front Low: Audi OEM 6.5
> -Center:Vifa NE65W-04 2" Full Range Woofer
> -Side/Rear (one-way): Audi OEM 6.5 and 3/4" tweeters
> -Sub: Massive Audio V10 DVC 4ohm in a small sealed fiberglass enclosure (0.6 cu ft)
> -MS-8 powering front and rear speakers
> -Massive Audio N2 powering sub
> 
> Crossover Settings:
> -Subsonic 30hz (12db)
> -Sub/front 100hz (24db)
> -Front high/low 3900hz (24db)
> -Center 200hz (24db)
> -Side/Rear 100hz (24db)
> 
> What do you guys think about using a Fountek FR89EX 3" Full Range - 4 ohm
> Fountek FR89EX 3" Full Range - 4 ohm: Madisound Speaker Store
> 
> Whatever I do, I have to get it to fit in here without hacking up the dash:
> (SEE PICTURE ABOVE)
> I think I can cut out the existing baffle and fore-aft plastic supports without affecting any of the other systems in the car (HVAC etc.) I can use the grill (not pictured) and build a fiberglass enclosure of appropriate size to fit down inside the dash.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Thanks!
> J


So I found another center channel thread; Andy says no enclosure needed for dash mounted center "so long as the front and back of the speaker are pretty well isolated, there's no need for an enclosure if you'll be using an electronic filter." 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1105804-post5.html

Anyone else have experience on the matter they care to share. I've only found a few people who built enclosures for their center and it seemed they were only done to avoid cutting into dashes that didn't have center speaker openings from the factory.

Are enclosure specs more critical when using a small center (3") and asking it to play down low (below 400hz) or can I really just throw that 3" speaker in the dash and just make sure the front and the back are isolated? I'm sorry and I'm sure it apparent to most, but I do not understand Thiele/Small parameters very well. I know the 3" is going to have trouble keeping up with the larger 6.5" door speakers, but I'd like to try to optimize the small center as best I can. Hoping you guys can help guide the village idiot here.


----------



## bap4201

Greatly appreciate the help guys, ty very much ^^


----------



## Neil_J

An update on my complete lack of center imaging. I received a copy of my IASCA scoresheet from SBN last night: 

Left: 8 of 10 points (Images are well defined and located, but not perfect)
Left of center: 8 of 10 points (Images are well defined and located, but not perfect)
*Center: 5 of 10 points (Images are diffused and somewhat difficult to place)*
Right of center: 7 of 10 points (Images are somewhat diffused and shifted in location)
Right: 8 of 10 points (Images are well defined and located, but not perfect)
So the judge seemed to agree with my assessment that the center image needs some work. I'm going to to mess with crossover points and see if it gets better without my mids by going 2-way temporarily. As I said before, I'm certain that the phases are wired correctly. 

This has really been bumming me out, I wish I could just get it fixed


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

I just wanted to say that after reading this thread for longer than I can remember, and seeing how much support the MS-8 gets from both users and the manufacturers representative(s?) I just pulled the trigger on one. 

I plan on using it in my Corvette... I'm curious to see if I can integrate it into the factory B(l)ose system before doing any actual upgrades. (HU, amps, speakers.) I also have a set of USD waveguides that I bought years ago and never used... so I'm curious to see how they sound in the car.

More to come...


----------



## bap4201

Fast Hot Rod said:


> I just wanted to say that after reading this thread for longer than I can remember, and seeing how much support the MS-8 gets from both users and the manufacturers representative(s?) I just pulled the trigger on one.
> 
> I plan on using it in my Corvette... I'm curious to see if I can integrate it into the factory B(l)ose system before doing any actual upgrades. (HU, amps, speakers.) I also have a set of USD waveguides that I bought years ago and never used... so I'm curious to see how they sound in the car.
> 
> More to come...


Haha, good luck with that. I tried to tame my "whim" to upgrade, and couldn't do it. I literally ripped out my JBL premium system, and started from scratch and the JBL MS-8 is in my audio arsenal ^^


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

bap4201 said:


> Haha, good luck with that. I tried to tame my "whim" to upgrade, and couldn't do it. I literally ripped out my JBL premium system, and started from scratch and the JBL MS-8 is in my audio arsenal ^^


Heh heh heh... Yea, I know what you're saying. I've never been one to leave well enough alone either. 

Call it morbid curiosity, but I went out and bought the factory connectors and pins for the stock audio system in my Corvette from Mouser. That way, I can just unplug the connection between the HU and the B(l)ose amp and then wire in the MS-8 for a quick four-channel setup, or after the amp to see what "processing" takes place in the amp.

My C6 has a factory navigation unit that has four low-level outputs. Front & Rear, Left and Right. The factory amplifier splits that into Left, Center, Right, and Rear (single mono rear signal, not stereo) outputs, as well as two outputs to the door subs. 

The three front speakers are the 3.5" Bose drivers, with some 5.5" rears for fill and a 10" bass driver in each door. (I hesitate to call them "subs" even if the factory does.) Each door "bass unit" has it's own amplifier, so I'm curious to see if there was a way to integrate the MS-8 to input a simple 2-channel low level input, then use the factory amps after the MS-8 to drive the speakers and see how it works out. By using the GM factory style plugs, I could make installing a MS-8 a "plug and play" setup for other Corvette owners.

Now whether or not that is a 'smart' thing to do with B(l)ose drivers or not remains to be seen. 

But you're probably right... I'll get half way into this and figure, "Screw this" and rip everything out. 

Mark


----------



## jbradle7

Pretty sure there was a guy on here with a CTS/bose system. Recall he had a bunch of problems, might try to find and PM him for ideas. BOL!

Think it was se7en?


----------



## shapiro

I tried asking this question elsewhere but never got any responses... I'm hoping someone here can help?

I have an Ms-8 on it's way and trying to decide how to use the 8 channels. I've never done any kind of active system before so need some help on doing it right. Right now my setup is:

focal components up front
Boston Acoustics 10" sub 
both powered by Boston Acoustics 4 channel amp
stock rear components (I'm probably going to drop the tweeters because they are too close to my ear, they are on the upper front of the rear door)

plan for future things to add:
#1 I'm going to try out 2 tactile transducers under the front seats (a new amp will be added as well). Any input good or bad on running tactile transducers?
#2 I would like to add some kind of center channel speaker that doesn't require cutting up my dash to take full advantage of the MS-8.. something like this: (any better suggestions?) Pioneer TS-CX7 Full-Range Center Channel Car Stereo Speaker 267-301

On to my question... I would prefer to keep the rear speakers connected if possible mostly just for rear passengers, and they are actually pretty nice stock speakers. I have read that I need to wire the tweeters on a separate channel than the components for the time alignment, I then would use two channels for the rear speakers... and then is it possible to use one channel for the center and the other channel daisy chained to tactile transducers and sub? (I have two channels bridged on the amp for the sub, obviously for those two channels there are two channels RCA input). 

Any better suggestions on how to connect this? Am I going to have to drop the rear speakers if I want a center channel... and does a center channel really make that much of a difference to warrant dropping the rears?


----------



## taibanl

Neil_J said:


> Andy, could I PM you or call you with some questions about getting it to image properly, trust me it's the absolute last resort to request help from you. As I've said, I've calibrated at every level between 50 dB and 95 dB with most being in the 80s range, I was using an SPL meter playing pink noise to come up with those levels. It certainly gets me in the ballpark, but it's a blob, like I mentioned. I have my speakers placed exactly as you recommend (tweets in pillar crossed high, mids are high in door, and midbass is bottom door). Tonality isn't bad, maybe a little bright for some people, I'd say it's more flat. I like it that way, it gives great impact when played loud. But as I said, the center image is non-existent. The IASCA staging technical track seems like the center stage person is talking from both left and right stage simultaneously.


Curious...were you using output diagnostic pink noise or were you using test menu (individual channel) pink noise?....or some other pink noise I suppose.

I have had incredibly better results since I started using the test menu pink noise.

Edit: I am sure you were testing individual channel levels, but I had to ask since you said "pink noise" I was curious.


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

Right now I am having some trouble with my ms8. 

Hertz mile woofers and tweeters ran off a audison 5.1k

Rears are hertz hcx 165 "just added this weekend" ran by a focal amp

I have ran through the setup many of times. 

The tweeters always to seem to get harsh at higher volumes.

I have not yet tried, unplugging the mic after sweeps. -40 during sweeps.
What other tricks are there without spending the next 2 hours reading through this thread?


Current setup is

sub/mid 80 12db oct

crossover 2500 at 12 db oct

Rears 70

The car is a 370z with tweeters in stock locations.

*NOTE* Sounds better with L7 off


----------



## shamie

shapiro said:


> focal components up front
> Boston Acoustics 10" sub
> both powered by Boston Acoustics 4 channel amp
> stock rear components (I'm probably going to drop the tweeters because they are too close to my ear, they are on the upper front of the rear door)
> 
> plan for future things to add:
> #1 I'm going to try out 2 tactile transducers under the front seats (a new amp will be added as well). Any input good or bad on running tactile transducers?
> #2 I would like to add some kind of center channel speaker that doesn't require cutting up my dash to take full advantage of the MS-8.. something like this: (any better suggestions?) Pioneer TS-CX7 Full-Range Center Channel Car Stereo Speaker 267-301
> 
> On to my question... I would prefer to keep the rear speakers connected if possible mostly just for rear passengers, and they are actually pretty nice stock speakers. I have read that I need to wire the tweeters on a separate channel than the components for the time alignment, I then would use two channels for the rear speakers... and then is it possible to use one channel for the center and the other channel daisy chained to tactile transducers and sub? (I have two channels bridged on the amp for the sub, obviously for those two channels there are two channels RCA input).
> 
> Any better suggestions on how to connect this? Am I going to have to drop the rear speakers if I want a center channel... and does a center channel really make that much of a difference to warrant dropping the rears?


I would ditch the idea of tactile tranducers. Use your amp to run the front midwoofers and the sub and use the MS-8 to run the front tweeters, center, and rears (with or without tweeters). Try it without a center first - you may not miss it. The MS-8 can do wonders without a center.


----------



## t3sn4f2

shapiro said:


> I tried asking this question elsewhere but never got any responses... I'm hoping someone here can help?
> 
> I have an Ms-8 on it's way and trying to decide how to use the 8 channels. I've never done any kind of active system before so need some help on doing it right. Right now my setup is:
> 
> focal components up front
> Boston Acoustics 10" sub
> both powered by Boston Acoustics 4 channel amp
> stock rear components (I'm probably going to drop the tweeters because they are too close to my ear, they are on the upper front of the rear door)
> 
> plan for future things to add:
> #1 I'm going to try out 2 tactile transducers under the front seats (a new amp will be added as well). Any input good or bad on running tactile transducers?
> #2 I would like to add some kind of center channel speaker that doesn't require cutting up my dash to take full advantage of the MS-8.. something like this: (any better suggestions?) Pioneer TS-CX7 Full-Range Center Channel Car Stereo Speaker 267-301
> 
> On to my question... I would prefer to keep the rear speakers connected if possible mostly just for rear passengers, and they are actually pretty nice stock speakers. I have read that I need to wire the tweeters on a separate channel than the components for the time alignment, I then would use two channels for the rear speakers... and then is it possible to use one channel for the center and the other channel daisy chained to tactile transducers and sub? (I have two channels bridged on the amp for the sub, obviously for those two channels there are two channels RCA input).
> 
> Any better suggestions on how to connect this? Am I going to have to drop the rear speakers if I want a center channel... and does a center channel really make that much of a difference to warrant dropping the rears?


Here's a thread on transducers. I'd check with Andy to make sure that they are MS-8 friendly.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion-no-question-dumb/117367-aura-bass-shakers.html

As for the center. I would not run one at all if my only option was that small 2" center. It would work, but only while sitting in your driveway on a quiet night with the volume not turned up that high. Reason being that you would have to cross it over wellllll below 300Hz for it to be an acceptable logic7 center channel. A driver that size can be used but in an application that works from ~600Hz and up.


----------



## radarcontact

Here is my current setup:










The fronts are a combo of CDT mids, and some Massive tweets I threw in there to replace the blown CDT tweets.

I am replacing this crappy front stage with the DLS RM6.2 Reference set.
But...I was thinking about going passive on the front set this time (using the DLS crossovers). 

It just seems like my system played louder and "fuller" before the MS-8, but clearer and less "localized" with the MS-8. I think the 8 somehow limits the amps somewhat in order to balance to the lowest denominator, but does a fantastic job with TA and EQ.

My mids and tweets are rather severly separated though...do you think the TA will be jacked, or will the 8 still do a decent job?
(tweets are up by the door handles)


















Am I legit or am I being dumb? 
Thoughts?


----------



## shapiro

shamie said:


> I would ditch the idea of tactile tranducers. Use your amp to run the front midwoofers and the sub and use the MS-8 to run the front tweeters, center, and rears (with or without tweeters). Try it without a center first - you may not miss it. The MS-8 can do wonders without a center.


Why would you say to ditch the tactile transducer? If you have a good reason for not using it I would really like to hear it. I think I'll drop the center channel idea for now and see how it does.


----------



## shapiro

t3sn4f2 said:


> Here's a thread on transducers. I'd check with Andy to make sure that they are MS-8 friendly.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion-no-question-dumb/117367-aura-bass-shakers.html
> 
> As for the center. I would not run one at all if my only option was that small 2" center. It would work, but only while sitting in your driveway on a quiet night with the volume not turned up that high. Reason being that you would have to cross it over wellllll below 300Hz for it to be an acceptable logic7 center channel. A driver that size can be used but in an application that works from ~600Hz and up.


I've already read that thread and talked to highlander about the transducers... He's the one that's convinced me on them. Sorry for the ignorance, but who is Andy to check with about the transducers and MS-8?


----------



## Neil_J

taibanl said:


> Curious...were you using output diagnostic pink noise or were you using test menu (individual channel) pink noise?....or some other pink noise I suppose.
> 
> I have had incredibly better results since I started using the test menu pink noise.
> 
> Edit: I am sure you were testing individual channel levels, but I had to ask since you said "pink noise" I was curious.


I've mostly used 0 dBFS pink noise generated in Audacity, but have also been measuring the peak hold SPL during the sweeps... If I calibrate too loud, the imaging gets much worse (MS-8 attenuates left tweeter, as documented/explained by Andy and others). If I calibrate on the low side (I think I've done it as low as 70-ish dB, but most at 80-90 dB), imaging gets much better... but still diffuse.

I mentioned earlier that I was going to try a 2-way configuration by telling the MS-8 to ignore my midranges (so just door midbass and sail tweeters)... The stage definitely raised up a bit, but the imaging was still really diffuse. I have quite a few more configurations to try, as I've still not isolated if a single driver or pair of drivers is causing the issue. So I'll be listening to just midbass, then just midrange, then tweets, and try flipping phases on each. If THAT doesn't work, I'll likely insert my MiniDSP in series with the MS-8's output signal path and start manually tweaking the MiniDSP's T/A (all other settings to defeat/flat) to see if it gets worse or better. The theory being that the MS-8 is getting T/A in the ballpark, but not nailing it (would indicate an unlikely MS-8 problem or a problem with the way I'm tilting my head during calibration, or something to that extent). I've already tried two different MS-8 binaural mics and get the same thing, so definitely not a mic problem.

Can anyone here besides Andy with an MS-8 (and no center channel) say that they can get the center imaging spot-on every time?? (specifically, track 12 of the IASCA disc or any of the Chesky tracks where the announcer is narrating in mono) And by spot on, I mean where someone might ask where you're hiding the center channel at


----------



## taibanl

Can you email me a lossless of that track? I am nowhere near your standards but i was shocked to find when i took my center out last week i was looking at the hole in the dash admiring my center image as if it was right there

The point of my question was to find outnif you are level matching individual drivers, not to see your sweep volume. I avtually run a higher sweep volume then andy normally recommends. (havent measured with my meter though...ill do that tomorrow if i can. 

I guess the questioned is answeredthough if you are doing an ms-8 based 3-way then i would assume it makes no difference (as your individual channel levels dont get masked like mine)


----------



## kaigoss69

This proves again that the calibration results can vary greatly depending on the overall sweep volume, and the difference between the individual sweeps. We need to come up with a standard that works and a way of setting gains such that any differences in sweep volumes is minimized or eliminated. 

I suggested before that someone could possibly come up with an iphone or android app to help accomplish this. In the absence of such a tool, we would have to establish a manual procedure and a standard for measuring volumes and specific frequency ranges.

What needs to be measured I think is the following:

1. Pink noise from each individual channel. This we can do from the "secret" test menu on the MS-8
2. Peaks in the pink noise response in the specific frequency bands MS-8 checks. For example, for subs I think it looks in the 50 - 80 Hz range, for mids in the 100 - 500 Hz range, and tweets .... (this info is available for subs and mids, as posted by Andy, we would just need the range for dedicated tweeters)
3. Peak volume of individual sweeps during calibration (in the frequency bands MS-8 checks)

The tools we would need:

1a. Laptop based RTA with calibrated mic and software that will record peak dB
1b. iphone/android with RTA app that will record peak dB. This would require calibration with external dB meter (RadioShack or others)

Then we would need to establish a procedure to follow, such as mic positioning, orientation, pink noise & sweep volume levels, etc.

This can be done, just requires a bit of work...


----------



## taibanl

^^^

ok kai, i know youre frustrated but dont think you have to get THAT invloved (other than perhaps for solving the sub/midbass peak @50-80hz). The free jl audio tools app works well for a rudimentary level match.


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## Neil_J

I got a comment over in my build thread about trying to do some polarity checks using a mic and my laptop. He said he was installing a Mosconi DSP and even after all the speakers were wired correctly, one of them was still backwards. Maybe one of my speakers got wired backwards or something .. I'll give that a try first. Should be a piece of cake to measure.


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## shamie

kaigoss69 said:


> 1. Pink noise from each individual channel. This we can do from the "secret" test menu on the MS-8


What "secret" test menu are you refering to?


----------



## shamie

shapiro said:


> Why would you say to ditch the tactile transducer? If you have a good reason for not using it I would really like to hear it. I think I'll drop the center channel idea for now and see how it does.


How will the MS-8 deal with them? It certainly will not hear them.


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## Neil_J

shamie said:


> What "secret" test menu are you refering to?


Enter up,down,up,down,left,right,B,A,start with the remote 

Actually the secret code is left,right,left,right and repeat until it works. I think it's about 1-2 seconds between each. Be careful while you're in there, some of the options will play full blast without crossover frequencies enabled, and could let the magic blue smoke out of your tweeter voice coils.


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## Big T

Neal.
Are you the guy at Daytona with the really cool custom mechined amprack?? I think I met you..Didnt you get bumped to amature from rookie cause of your door speaker grills or something stupid like that?? How did you place??


----------



## Neil_J

Big T said:


> Neal.
> Are you the guy at Daytona with the really cool custom mechined amprack?? I think I met you..Didnt you get bumped to amature from rookie cause of your door speaker grills or something stupid like that?? How did you place??


Yea, that was me  I had a few technical problems and didn't score very well. 5th place in MECA and 7th in IASCA. However, I learned a lot, and met a bunch of cool people, and heard some great sounding cars. I'll be back next year, I have some tricks up my sleeve that will hopefully snag a trophy or two.

There were a few diyma threads about SBN if you want to check them out:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...522-wanted-official-results-sbn-2012-a-4.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/12-volt-events-team-diyma/126421-sbn-2012-a.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...eet-greet-tune-september-29th-orlando-fl.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...yma-spring-break-nationals-member-meetup.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...3476-spring-break-nationals-anyone-going.html


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## 14642

Guys, the KIND of pink noise you use is also important. Stereo pink noise will energize ALL the channels with Logic7 on. Mono pink noise will be steered mostly to the center channel and NOTHING will come from the rears. 

IF you're trying to check polarity or for a center image, use mono noise with or without a center. IF you're trying to adjust frequency response using the 31-band EQ, use stereo pink noise. 

The pink noise in Output Diagnostics is sent to combinations of speakers identified as Front Right, Front Left, etc. It is filtered by the crossovers. The pink noise in the secret menu is full range (not filtered by the crossovers) and is sent to individual channels. 

Regarding the center image without a center channel: I was recently in Jakarta and listened to a bunch of MS-8s. Some had center speakers and some did not. All had the same center image from one seat.


----------



## pionkej

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The pink noise in Output Diagnostics is sent to combinations of speakers identified as Front Right, Front Left, etc. It is filtered by the crossovers. The pink noise in the secret menu is full range (not filtered by the crossovers) and is sent to individual channels.


Andy-

Does this bypass everything, including EQ?

Also, does it bypass the head units volume (like the level setting pink noise does during setup)?


----------



## 14642

Yes. the signals are generated inside MS-8, so the head unit has no effect.


----------



## Neil_J

So after measuring the polarities of all my speakers with a mic and my laptop, I found out that one of my L3SE's is backwards, polarity-wise. I've wired everything correctly, but the right speaker still moves out when it should be moving in. I swapped the polarity at the amp, re-ran acoustic calibration on the MS-8, and it sounds better! Not perfect, but a decent improvement.

I've still no idea how this could happen if everything is wired correctly... I'm left to believe that it's either the L3SE miswired, or something the amp's doing. The funniest part is how everyone always says not to wire your mids out of phase, when clearly in this situation it would have made an improvement 

After the re-tune last night (well after all two dozen auto-tunes), it seems like the ms-8 is still getting the individual channel levels or freq response wrong, even if it gets the T/A mostly correct. The Chesky CD announcer vocal track(s) do a good job of revealing it.. The mids and highs pull right, and the midbass pulls left. I think this is a big part of the diffuse imaging that I've been seeing.

Andy, regarding the pink noise, I don't have rear speakers or a center channel, so Logic 7 has been off the whole time (well I gotta turn it off after every calibration). I have both mono and stereo versions that were made in Audacity. Most of the acoustic calibrations I've been doing the last few days have been just trial and error.. Adjust volume, calibrate, and listed to reference tracks. Rinse, repeat. What did they say the definition of insanity was again?


----------



## shamie

So if you are running all active why didn't the MS-8 fix the phase of your driver during calibration? I would think reguardless of how you have it connected in phase electrically that the MS-8 would compensate to make it in phase accoustically. It adjusts for time alignment - isn't that just extreme phase?


----------



## Shaheenk

HI Guys I sent this to andy a few days ago ,and thought maybe I should post here too

Wondering if you can help me or advise me. I lived in the UK for the past 4 years and bought my MS8 while out there. I finally got back to South africa and have installed the unit. I want to give you some input into my system and maybe you can point me in the right direction.

1. I am worried about this Jet sound, the unit was in my mates car for a while and we had no issues, from this I am guessing it is safe to assume the unit will perform without hassles. If not is there a firmware upgrade I can do.
2. My car is a E46 BMW Touring (station wagon RHD) , I have the following setup .
ADS 6 4 1, (641is) 3 way setup , the 6 in is in the lower doors stock position
4in and tweeter are on pods on the sail , aimed towards the centre of the car , not off axis but not totally on axis as well. the 4 and tweeter are running through the supplied passive .
I have a pair of 8 in woofers (AVI SL200) in a ported enclosure in the hatch area
also have a 3in (hertz Hks170) mid in the centre of the car, again on axis.

For the rear I have the sotck speakers connected to the MS8 outputs(internal amp)

The Amp I am using is a Phoenix gold 900.7 so I have 5 x 50rms and 2 x 100rms for the woofers.

What would you suggest for x-overs , currently , subs are low at 75, midbass at 300 , mid/twtter combo at 300 up. Centre is at 400 and rears at 150
also I have a slight engine whine . would this be due to calibration.

Also any tips and hits would be appriciated. my centre is currently too strong but that could be the actual CD. 

Thanks
Shaheen


----------



## Neil_J

shamie said:


> So if you are running all active why didn't the MS-8 fix the phase of your driver during calibration? I would think reguardless of how you have it connected in phase electrically that the MS-8 would compensate to make it in phase accoustically. It adjusts for time alignment - isn't that just extreme phase?


Because phase and polarity are two different things. Lots of older threads on diyma to back this up.


----------



## 14642

Well Neil...I just checked out your build log. Nice installation. It's uncommon for speakers to be miswired at the factory, but it does happen. I wish I had been at SBN. Maybe we could have straightened the rest of this out. 

I can tell you that MS-8 does NOT adjust the polarity of the speakers on its output. It does, however, measure and set delays VERY accurately. In fact, it's far more accurate than a manual MLS measurement, unless you know precisely how to determine the initial impulse of channels that don't include much high frequency content. 

The rest of the installation looks great. I read most of the thread, but not all of it. As you know, lots of leakage around the mids will cause problems. I think you indicated that you had solved that--hopefully with something other than polyfill.

If I could make one suggestion--it's probably too late--I'd have suggested a different location for the tweeters. The pods look beautiful, but they have NO baffle. That works fine in a big room where the walls are far from the tweeter. The placement of the tweeter, a few inches away from three different reflecting surfaces, is an open invitation to provide 4 separate apparent sources for frequencies where imaging cues are most prominent. This will definitely make spot-on imaging more difficult. Above 1k, we don't hear ITDs very well, so TA isn't nearly as important as it is in the midrange and midbass. At high frequencies we use level to determine the location of sound. You have at least 4 apparent sources of high frequencies on both sides of the car. 

With a manual processor, I suggest setting TA using the tape measure method or with an MLS signal. If you use MLS, don't pay attention to what appears to be the constantly reversing polarity in the measurements. Just look for the initial peak. Don't look for the tallest peak. That will probably be a reflection and will be louder than the initial response due to constructive interference. Be careful when you make these measurements. I suggest a 20uF cap on the tweeter. 

If you're using MLS to measure the other speakers, it's helpful to turn off low pass filters. The initial response is NOT the top of the hump you'll see in the sub and the midbass. More high frequency content will help you locate the initial impulse.


----------



## 14642

Shaheenk said:


> HI Guys I sent this to andy a few days ago ,and thought maybe I should post here too
> 
> Wondering if you can help me or advise me. I lived in the UK for the past 4 years and bought my MS8 while out there. I finally got back to South africa and have installed the unit. I want to give you some input into my system and maybe you can point me in the right direction.
> 
> 1. I am worried about this Jet sound, the unit was in my mates car for a while and we had no issues, from this I am guessing it is safe to assume the unit will perform without hassles. If not is there a firmware upgrade I can do.
> 2. My car is a E46 BMW Touring (station wagon RHD) , I have the following setup .
> ADS 6 4 1, (641is) 3 way setup , the 6 in is in the lower doors stock position
> 4in and tweeter are on pods on the sail , aimed towards the centre of the car , not off axis but not totally on axis as well. the 4 and tweeter are running through the supplied passive .
> I have a pair of 8 in woofers (AVI SL200) in a ported enclosure in the hatch area
> also have a 3in (hertz Hks170) mid in the centre of the car, again on axis.
> 
> For the rear I have the sotck speakers connected to the MS8 outputs(internal amp)
> 
> The Amp I am using is a Phoenix gold 900.7 so I have 5 x 50rms and 2 x 100rms for the woofers.
> 
> What would you suggest for x-overs , currently , subs are low at 75, midbass at 300 , mid/twtter combo at 300 up. Centre is at 400 and rears at 150
> also I have a slight engine whine . would this be due to calibration.
> 
> Also any tips and hits would be appriciated. my centre is currently too strong but that could be the actual CD.
> 
> Thanks
> Shaheen


Your crossover selections look fine to me. Regarding the slight engine whine--where is the battery in that car? In the rear? Have you grounded directly to the battery or to the chassis?


----------



## Ganderson

Shaheenk said:


> HI Guys I sent this to andy a few days ago ,and thought maybe I should post here too
> 
> Wondering if you can help me or advise me. I lived in the UK for the past 4 years and bought my MS8 while out there. I finally got back to South africa and have installed the unit. I want to give you some input into my system and maybe you can point me in the right direction.
> 
> 1. I am worried about this Jet sound, the unit was in my mates car for a while and we had no issues, from this I am guessing it is safe to assume the unit will perform without hassles. If not is there a firmware upgrade I can do.
> 2. My car is a E46 BMW Touring (station wagon RHD) , I have the following setup .
> ADS 6 4 1, (641is) 3 way setup , the 6 in is in the lower doors stock position
> 4in and tweeter are on pods on the sail , aimed towards the centre of the car , not off axis but not totally on axis as well. the 4 and tweeter are running through the supplied passive .
> I have a pair of 8 in woofers (AVI SL200) in a ported enclosure in the hatch area
> also have a 3in (hertz Hks170) mid in the centre of the car, again on axis.
> 
> For the rear I have the sotck speakers connected to the MS8 outputs(internal amp)
> 
> The Amp I am using is a Phoenix gold 900.7 so I have 5 x 50rms and 2 x 100rms for the woofers.
> 
> What would you suggest for x-overs , currently , subs are low at 75, midbass at 300 , mid/twtter combo at 300 up. Centre is at 400 and rears at 150
> also I have a slight engine whine . would this be due to calibration.
> 
> Also any tips and hits would be appriciated. my centre is currently too strong but that could be the actual CD.
> 
> Thanks
> Shaheen


Hi Shaheen,

Regarding the jet sound, even though it has not happened yet it is NOT safe to assume that it won't, IMO.

I say this from my own experience with the unit and MANY calibrations done the same way over 7 months before it finally happened to me.

There is no firmware fix and since JBL has known about the issue for a couple of years and still doesn't know what causes it, there might never be one.

Beware and have an action plan (kill the ignition... Quick) if you hear it coming.


----------



## Salami

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If I could make one suggestion--it's probably too late--I'd have suggested a different location for the tweeters. The pods look beautiful, but they have NO baffle.


Andy,

What would location do you think would be best for this car?


----------



## newnick

I'm new to the MS8 and have fears of the jet sound too. I've only done the drivers seat calibrations when I calibrate and it seems like I end up with more volume on the right speakers than the left, but just enough to notice. My question is, when you calibrate and use two or more seating positions will it change the sound compared to just a one seat calibration?


----------



## Ganderson

newnick said:


> I'm new to the MS8 and have fears of the jet sound too. I've only done the drivers seat calibrations when I calibrate and it seems like I end up with more volume on the right speakers than the left, but just enough to notice. My question is, when you calibrate and use two or more seating positions will it change the sound compared to just a one seat calibration?


A drivers seat calibration will likely have more volume coming from the right speakers because they are further away, but it should sound BALANCED when you are listening from the drivers seat.

If you calibrate more than one seating position, it will not effect the calibration for the driver seat from my experience.


----------



## newnick

Thanks, guess I'll keep tweaking.


----------



## 14642

Salami said:


> Andy,
> 
> What would location do you think would be best for this car?


Top of the door panel. I had a 3-way in the doors of my Mini Cooper and it sounded great. A-pillars should be avoided. I'm probably the only peson in the industry who says this, so I'm sure this suggestion is viewed with plenty of skepticism. 

Maybe I should give this up and open a pizza shop.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> *Top of the door panel*. I had a 3-way in the doors of my Mini Cooper and it sounded great. A-pillars should be avoided. I'm probably the only peson in the industry who says this, so I'm sure this suggestion is viewed with plenty of skepticism.
> 
> Maybe I should give this up and open a pizza shop.


Andy, what is your stand on aiming when mounting in the sail panels. Is too on axis on the driver side a bad thing since there will be more reflection from the side glass? Should we aim in between the two front seats to reduce that reflected energy and make the slight off axis to the listener the new "on axis". Same approach for the passengers side even though the perspective to the driver is different?


----------



## taibanl

Curious for andys response but ive read something that indicated that aiming to the cross side of the car (drivers side towards pax and vice versa) would generally result in more apparent volume balance for both seats where the off axis response of the tweeter is alightly attenuated. I have no idea if this is ever true or if it is, how universal it might be


----------



## 14642

taibanl said:


> Curious for andys response but ive read something that indicated that aiming to the cross side of the car (drivers side towards pax and vice versa) would generally result in more apparent volume balance for both seats where the off axis response of the tweeter is alightly attenuated. I have no idea if this is ever true or if it is, how universal it might be


Putting tweeters in the a-pillars and firing them directly across the dash is a band-aid for a 2-seat car. The near tweeter is so far off axis that the very high frequencies are attenuated which helps to match the lower level from the far side which is on axis. The result is a better center than if the tweeters were aimed at you, but not as good as in one seat. 
If you have a center or are only interested in a 1-seat car, doors or sail panels are MUCH better because they're farther away from the windshield. They can be aimed by turning them toward the rear of the car slightly. Aiming for tweeters only matters at VERY high frequencies.


----------



## taibanl

Perfect thanks! I have noticed the bmw oem sails are aimed that way


----------



## kaigoss69

taibanl said:


> Perfect thanks! I have noticed the bmw oem sails are aimed that way


Lol and I was just thinking if aiming the tweeters toward the windshield would sound better. I guess I'll leave them where they are. 

Andy, did the MS-8 "prototype" install in the BMW give you a stage beyond the windshield? If yes how did you do it?


----------



## shamie

Neil_J said:


> Because phase and polarity are two different things. Lots of older threads on diyma to back this up.


Well I was always taught that reverse polarity was 180 degrees out of phase. What am I missing?

Also what's the easiest way to tell if the polarity of your tweeters is correct? I've used the battery method on mids and woofers, but I'm apprehensive to try it on tweeters.


----------



## Shaheenk

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Your crossover selections look fine to me. Regarding the slight engine whine--where is the battery in that car? In the rear? Have you grounded directly to the battery or to the chassis?


Thanks Andy 

Just as an aside, I competed in the first IASCA show for the year in SA today with the MS8 and placed first in my class and 2nd overall. Not bad for a autotune and no real setup time.

judge was really impressed. Only 2 comments. 

Bass was a bit boomy and the horns seem to be changing from sounding very good to ok to very good again. Not sure if this is the centre playing tricks on me or something else.

I can sort the sub by closing the port off and seeing if that changes the response. But all in all I am very happy. Also engine noise is only from the centre, thinking its an RCA. The battery is in the rear and we earthing to the chassis.


----------



## taibanl

If anyone is smart on tweeter protection....please look at Project: Internal Upgrade - Rainbow SL100 Coaxial (center) - BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum - E90Post.com and share your thoughts with me (its Ms-8 related...promise .

Edit: for comments, I created a local thread: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ter-protection-modified-coax.html#post1600571


----------



## 14642

Shaheenk said:


> Thanks Andy
> 
> Just as an aside, I competed in the first IASCA show for the year in SA today with the MS8 and placed first in my class and 2nd overall. Not bad for a autotune and no real setup time.
> 
> judge was really impressed. Only 2 comments.
> 
> Bass was a bit boomy and the horns seem to be changing from sounding very good to ok to very good again. Not sure if this is the centre playing tricks on me or something else.
> 
> I can sort the sub by closing the port off and seeing if that changes the response. But all in all I am very happy. Also engine noise is only from the centre, thinking its an RCA. The battery is in the rear and we earthing to the chassis.


If the engine noise is only in the center, turn off Logic7 and se if you hear it in the right and left. If so, look for a ground loop or the source of the noise BEFORE MS-8 rather than between MS-8 and the amp. If the noise is the same in the left and right channels before MS-8, Logic 7 will steer it to the center.


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> Lol and I was just thinking if aiming the tweeters toward the windshield would sound better. I guess I'll leave them where they are.
> 
> Andy, did the MS-8 "prototype" install in the BMW give you a stage beyond the windshield? If yes how did you do it?


All of this tweeer aiming is cracking me up. All of the sound from your tweeter below about 10kHz, unless you have a big waveguide, is radiated in all directions. Above 10kHz, the dispersion narrows gradually. That means that you can't "avoid" reflections from the glass by pointing tweeters toward the middle. You can diminish the level of the reflections by movin the tweeter away from them. You can also minimize the effect of destructive interference by mounting the tweeter IN one of the surfaces. This is why I suggest the ssail panel. It's farther away from the windshield. It's in the door so the door and door glass become the baffle, sort of. It helps to make the stage as wide as possible. And...it's easy.


----------



## Shaheenk

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If the engine noise is only in the center, turn off Logic7 and se if you hear it in the right and left. If so, look for a ground loop or the source of the noise BEFORE MS-8 rather than between MS-8 and the amp. If the noise is the same in the left and right channels before MS-8, Logic 7 will steer it to the center.


Thanks , all sorted with a replacement RCA on the centre channel. Will play with the X-overs a bit and see if maybe a overlap wont sort the stage out. I love this unit. Now to just find a right angle 3.5mm plug for the mic.


----------



## yuri

well done shaeenk that's great result .. ps what ever happened to the bit 1 you bought from me ?


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> Lol and I was just thinking if aiming the tweeters toward the windshield would sound better. I guess I'll leave them where they are.
> 
> Andy, did the MS-8 "prototype" install in the BMW give you a stage beyond the windshield? If yes how did you do it?


 
Yes. Side and rear speakers with Logic7.


----------



## Shaheenk

yuri said:


> well done shaeenk that's great result .. ps what ever happened to the bit 1 you bought from me ?


Hey Yuri

Yes it was an awesome result. Old skool rules man.

The bit1 is packed away awaiting my other car to be completed. but so so so tempted to sell it and get another MS8. Saves me the hassles of trying to get everything perfect. 

Bass upfront, TA done right , autotune a brezze and does not take 300hours to configure.


----------



## newnick

Ganderson said:


> A drivers seat calibration will likely have more volume coming from the right speakers because they are further away, but it should sound BALANCED when you are listening from the drivers seat.
> 
> If you calibrate more than one seating position, it will not effect the calibration for the driver seat from my experience.


I guess I wasn't clear with my question. The sound is not balanced or centered, but strong on the right side. Just for ****s and grins I sat on the passenger side today and it sounded really good and even, just like it should. I thought I could hear a little of the left rear side a little strong but I didn't listen very long. I did a little lean to the right on my last calibration but it's still strong on the right.
If I use logic 7 it seems to smooth it out a bit. I'm not running a center.


----------



## subwoofery

newnick said:


> I guess I wasn't clear with my question. The sound is not balanced or centered, but strong on the right side. Just for ****s and grins I sat on the passenger side today and it sounded really good and even, just like it should. I thought I could hear a little of the left rear side a little strong but I didn't listen very long. I did a little lean to the right on my last calibration but it's still strong on the right.
> If I use logic 7 it seems to smooth it out a bit. I'm not running a center.


Did you wear the headphones backward during calibration?  I know... stupid joke  

Kelvin


----------



## newnick

No, anything is possible though. I haven't done many calibrations, might be five, every one has been strong on the right side. I might try them backwards and see what happens or calibrate both front seats and run with the passenger side for a while.


----------



## Guack007

First off, I know I am new to this forum but I have read this thread from start to finish (probably twice now) and have always had the same issue most of us with aftermarket gear has(sub is stupid loud and no up front midbass).

Im finally getting to a point where Im pretty happy with my results. Here's what Ive gone through:

Tried the kaigoss method and while this did solve the bass issue somewhat I don't like the limitation on what my amps let me do crossover wise so I decided to keep trying with the sub on its own channel as its intended to be.

I like to level match my speakers during the sound output test and around -35DB seems to work well and give me around a 70DB level on all speakers however level matching the sub is almost impossible since the sound output test for the sub seems to always be very quiet, especially compared to the sound the test tone sweeps make through the sub (might be that the frequency of the sound output test is well outside the range of what the sub plays.)

After doing level matching I turn the gain on my subs amp way up and during the sweeps the sub sweep is stupid loud and you definitely feel and here it ALOT. (I know that andy has said both the sub should barely be heard and NOT felt but that just plain doesnt work)He also has said if you get too much sub that turning the gain UP is the right thing to do so I follow that advise.

Results: I still end up having to turn the gain on the sub down after the tune but not nearly as much and now at least when I turn the bass settings up (sub, EQ and tone control) I get up front bass.

Heres my setup for reference:

2011 VW Golf hatchback 4 door
Front midbass - HAT L6 in door running off PPI Phanton 900.4 bridged (~450Watts RMS x 2 4 Ohms)
Front tweeters - HAT L1Pros running off JL Audio XD400/4 (using front 2 channels ~75Watts RMS x 2 at 4 ohms)
Rear fill - HAT Imagine 6-1 components running off the same JL Audio XD400/4 (using rear 2 channels ~75Watts RMS x 2 at 4 ohms)
SUB - JL Audio 10W3V3-4 running off JL Audio 500/1 amp (500Watts RMS @ 4 ohms)
Box - Sealed 1.25 Cu/ft box in trunk giving a QTS of just under .7

I set the sub/front midbass crossover at 65Hz @ 24DB
Front High crossover set to 2200Hz @ 12DB
Rear at 80HZ @ 24DB


I hope this helps all those with the same type of setup/issue.


----------



## Ganderson

newnick said:


> No, anything is possible though. I haven't done many calibrations, might be five, every one has been strong on the right side. I might try them backwards and see what happens or calibrate both front seats and run with the passenger side for a while.


Try going through setup again and when you get to the output diagnostics page with the pink noise checks (before acoustic measurements), make sure that the pink noise from the right side is the same volume as the left side. Maybe sit in the center of the back seat with a meter and measure the volume directly between the front seats or just listen with your head between the seats.

If you are hearing the same volume bias in the pink noise test something is probably wrong with your setup.


----------



## eviling

Guack007 said:


> First off, I know I am new to this forum but I have read this thread from start to finish (probably twice now) and have always had the same issue most of us with aftermarket gear has(sub is stupid loud and no up front midbass).
> 
> Im finally getting to a point where Im pretty happy with my results. Here's what Ive gone through:
> 
> Tried the kaigoss method and while this did solve the bass issue somewhat I don't like the limitation on what my amps let me do crossover wise so I decided to keep trying with the sub on its own channel as its intended to be.
> 
> I like to level match my speakers during the sound output test and around -35DB seems to work well and give me around a 70DB level on all speakers however level matching the sub is almost impossible since the sound output test for the sub seems to always be very quiet, especially compared to the sound the test tone sweeps make through the sub (might be that the frequency of the sound output test is well outside the range of what the sub plays.)
> 
> After doing level matching I turn the gain on my subs amp way up and during the sweeps the sub sweep is stupid loud and you definitely feel and here it ALOT. (I know that andy has said both the sub should barely be heard and NOT felt but that just plain doesnt work)He also has said if you get too much sub that turning the gain UP is the right thing to do so I follow that advise.
> 
> Results: I still end up having to turn the gain on the sub down after the tune but not nearly as much and now at least when I turn the bass settings up (sub, EQ and tone control) I get up front bass.
> 
> Heres my setup for reference:
> 
> 2011 VW Golf hatchback 4 door
> Front midbass - HAT L6 in door running off PPI Phanton 900.4 bridged (~450Watts RMS x 2 4 Ohms)
> Front tweeters - HAT L1Pros running off JL Audio XD400/4 (using front 2 channels ~75Watts RMS x 2 at 4 ohms)
> Rear fill - HAT Imagine 6-1 components running off the same JL Audio XD400/4 (using rear 2 channels ~75Watts RMS x 2 at 4 ohms)
> SUB - JL Audio 10W3V3-4 running off JL Audio 500/1 amp (500Watts RMS @ 4 ohms)
> Box - Sealed 1.25 Cu/ft box in trunk giving a QTS of just under .7
> 
> I set the sub/front midbass crossover at 65Hz @ 24DB
> Front High crossover set to 2200Hz @ 12DB
> Rear at 80HZ @ 24DB
> 
> 
> I hope this helps all those with the same type of setup/issue.


i had an ms-8 for awhile, and i learned a trick. if you turn your gains up; higher than normal, while your calabrating and turn them to normal after or below normal, you'll have a mroe equaled out low end.


----------



## newnick

Ganderson said:


> Try going through setup again and when you get to the output diagnostics page with the pink noise checks (before acoustic measurements), make sure that the pink noise from the right side is the same volume as the left side. Maybe sit in the center of the back seat with a meter and measure the volume directly between the front seats or just listen with your head between the seats.
> 
> If you are hearing the same volume bias in the pink noise test something is probably wrong with your setup.


I'll try that. I did have a little wiring problem on the right side early on but thought I had fixed it, or was it the left side? Can't remember! Seriously it does sound pretty good, but with music it's hard to be completely satisfied.


----------



## dowheelies

Has anyone sacked up and changed the color of their MS-8?

I know it will probably void the warranty but I am really considering making it black. Does the silver cover come off easily? I haven't even looked at it yet just checking to see if anyone has done it.

Thanks,

Eric


----------



## taibanl

Dunno but mine is scratched and would be happy to pay someone to switch if they are going to mod it anyway.


----------



## Wenger

I'm thinking about picking up one of these for my 09 Acura TSX (non-tech package). The car has 2 tweeters, 2 front door speakers, 2 rear deck speakers and the stock subwoofer. I also want to pick up 2 more speakers for my rear doors and a centre channel (the car came with empty holes for the speakers because I don't have the tech package). Because this would bring me up to 10 speakers requiring inputs, would it make sense to replace the front tweeter and door speakers with components that would just require one input?


----------



## Mark the Bold

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Speaking from experience, if you get an MS-8 ditch the passive components altogether. You will want each speaker to have its own channel on the MS-8 for best results. From your email you seem to want a total of 9 channels meaning you'll be doubling up a set of speakers on an MS-8 channel.

I advise you go with the stock system and not add anything more, including no center channel. It will make the install much easier, not having to run new amplifiers for the i.m.o. needless rear door speakers. You can always add the center channel later.

The MS-8 will do an awesome job of making a center stage anyway.


----------



## subwoofery

Mark the Bold said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Speaking from experience, if you get an MS-8 ditch the passive components altogether. You will want each speaker to have its own channel on the MS-8 for best results. From your email you seem to want a total of 9 channels meaning you'll be doubling up a set of speakers on an MS-8 channel.
> 
> I advise you go with the stock system and not add anything more, including no center channel. It will make the install much easier, not having to run new amplifiers for the i.m.o. needless rear door speakers. You can always add the center channel later.
> 
> The MS-8 will do an awesome job of making a center stage anyway.


Actually a lot of DIYers have suggested to *include* a center channel and if at all possible rears too. 
If the mid is close enough to the tweeter, passive works fine... 

Kelvin


----------



## Wenger

Thanks for your replies.



subwoofery said:


> Actually a lot of DIYers have suggested to *include* a center channel and if at all possible rears too.
> If the mid is close enough to the tweeter, passive works fine...
> 
> Kelvin


Here is a picture of the door with the two speakers visible:








I'm not sure if the speakers are close enough together for passives.

I guess another possibility if I really wanted the rear doors could be to hook the left rear door and left deck speaker to the same output and the two right backs to the same output. The built in amp probably couldn't power them so I guess then I would need a separate amp.

Also, does anyone have speaker recommendations that run well off the built in amp? I'm guessing they would have to have higher sensitivity to work well.


----------



## subwoofery

Wenger said:


> Thanks for your replies.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture of the door with the two speakers visible:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if the speakers are close enough together for passives.
> 
> I guess another possibility if I really wanted the rear doors could be to hook the left rear door and left deck speaker to the same output and the two right backs to the same output. The built in amp probably couldn't power them so I guess then I would need a separate amp.
> 
> Also, does anyone have speaker recommendations that run well off the built in amp? I'm guessing they would have to have higher sensitivity to work well.


Question about passives, you can try but I think the tweeter and the midrange are too far apart... 
One thing you can do is connect the sides and rears together (SL+RL & SR+RR) powered by the internal MS-8 amp. <-- would free up enough channel to go active TW and MID + Center + Sides-Rears + Subwoofer. 

Kelvin


----------



## 14642

Wenger said:


> Thanks for your replies.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture of the door with the two speakers visible:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if the speakers are close enough together for passives.
> 
> I guess another possibility if I really wanted the rear doors could be to hook the left rear door and left deck speaker to the same output and the two right backs to the same output. The built in amp probably couldn't power them so I guess then I would need a separate amp.
> 
> Also, does anyone have speaker recommendations that run well off the built in amp? I'm guessing they would have to have higher sensitivity to work well.


Yup, use two channels for each of the doors. Connect the rear doors and the rear deck speakers in parallel. I've run everything from factory VW speakers to Boston Pros on the MS-8's amplifier and they all sound fine. It's 20 watts (@4 ohms) and 30 watts at 2. The difference between that and a 60 x 4 amplifier is 3dB.


----------



## Beato

*Re: JBL's MS-8 processor! - active question*

Question about going active. I’m currently using the passives that came with my comps which are going to the input of the MS8 (using stock HU). I want to go active so I plan to remove the passive xovers (in doors) and run new wires from the tweets to the amp. 

How do you avoid frying things at this point? Since my calibration is set for my previous passive config or if for whatever reason some pop occurs, radio gets bumped on etc.. Or is it as simple as re-wire things up (per above) and just re-run calibration and select 2-way, set hi/mid/low slopes etc..? 

I know its suggested to put a cap before the tweet but that notwithstanding just wanting to ask before I proceed.


----------



## 14642

After you rewire, turn on MS-8, choose "restore factory defaults" in the system settings menu and then reconfigure the outputs and recalibrate.


----------



## Beato

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> After you rewire, turn on MS-8, choose "restore factory defaults" in the system settings menu and then reconfigure the outputs and recalibrate.


Thanks Andy. I kinda figured as much just wanted to ask.


----------



## michaelkingdom

Andy,

Thanks for offering your advice here. It is no often that you get to use a product and chat with the project manager. Very cool.


----------



## dlheman

I just want to share what i recently founded out about what can caused missing midbass and overpowering subbass problem.

When calibrating the room acoustics make sure the head unit volume is way down. Some of my friends wishes to lock in the head unit volume at ms8 desired level, and instead of turning down the head unit's volume they just switched to AUX or immediately proceed with the auto tuning (after removing calibration cd when not using rca). What happened was, even though ms8 sends its own signals, depending on the head unit, leaving the head unit volume up high may causes slight buzzez much like white noise coming out from the speaker. This noise can drown the midbass sweep noise during auto tune and you can only hear chirping noise. What you want to hear is a whooping noise aswell, together with the chirping noise. 

And if ms8 cannot picked up the whooping sweep noise from the midbass, it seems to choose the subwoofer to do the job. This causes overly loud Subbass. As i recalled ms8 linked midbass and subbass filter as one, at least thats the way i understood it. If you did lower the head unit volume down as per ms8 instructions, but still no whooping midbass noise then you must check your installation. Incorrect speaker polarity wiring, undersize power/ground, improper speaker locations etc, can causes weak midbass resulting a very low whooping midbass noise during auto calibration. 

Active setup is obviously easier as you can just adjust from the gain level. But then is better to check everything is installed and operated as according to the manual of your car audio equipment. That includes ms8.

You should also make sure the sub gain stays minimum, meaning you can only slightly hear it and not feel it during your autotune. In my experience, this always produced stellar subbass. 

I hope this can help those who has missing midbass and overpowering subbass issue. And if it has already being mentioned before, well, i apologize.


----------



## Guack007

dlheman said:


> I just want to share what i recently founded out about what can caused missing midbass and overpowering subbass problem.
> 
> When calibrating the room acoustics make sure the head unit volume is way down. Some of my friends wishes to lock in the head unit volume at ms8 desired level, and instead of turning down the head unit's volume they just switched to AUX or immediately proceed with the auto tuning (after removing calibration cd when not using rca). What happened was, even though ms8 sends its own signals, depending on the head unit, leaving the head unit volume up high may causes slight buzzez much like white noise coming out from the speaker. This noise can drown the midbass sweep noise during auto tune and you can only hear chirping noise. What you want to hear is a whooping noise aswell, together with the chirping noise.
> 
> And if ms8 cannot picked up the whooping sweep noise from the midbass, it seems to choose the subwoofer to do the job. This causes overly loud Subbass. As i recalled ms8 linked midbass and subbass filter as one, at least thats the way i understood it. If you did lower the head unit volume down as per ms8 instructions, but still no whooping midbass noise then you must check your installation. Incorrect speaker polarity wiring, undersize power/ground, improper speaker locations etc, can causes weak midbass resulting a very low whooping midbass noise during auto calibration.
> 
> Active setup is obviously easier as you can just adjust from the gain level. But then is better to check everything is installed and operated as according to the manual of your car audio equipment. That includes ms8.
> 
> You should also make sure the sub gain stays minimum, meaning you can only slightly hear it and not feel it during your autotune. In my experience, this always produced stellar subbass.
> 
> I hope this can help those who has missing midbass and overpowering subbass issue. And if it has already being mentioned before, well, i apologize.


:thumbsup: this is good advice

I noticed that for me if I left the SUB amp and front midbass woffers amps to full range with all AMP crossovers defeated it helped a lot. During sweeps you could hear the "whooping noise" (especially out of the sub). The results were much better midbass and a much less overpowering sub. After the tune I then use the crossover on my subs amp to cut it off where I set the midbass to come in and use a 12DB cascaded filter which effectivly cuts off the sub by 36DB/Octive. This has made the sub bass integrate much better since it is really only playing sub 60hz by 36db/octive and the midbass is playing 60hz and up at 24db/octive using the active ms8 filter.


----------



## dlheman

Yes you must always leave the amplifier and head unit running full range, and let MS8 do the crossover. Afterwards you can tweak the amplifier if you wish. Some amplifier, like my DLS A5 has got no fullrange mode on its subwoofer section, so its always on low-pass filter. To overcome this, set the low-pass at the highest range (usually is always higher than 80hz anyway).

Awhile ago on my current car, I faced amazingly loud subbass problem, but on my previous car that issue never happened so I knew there was something wrong with my install on the current car. 

Truth is, at least in my experience, it was never MS8 problems. The key is to keep everything as simple as possible. I did two MS8 installs where it uses standard speakers on stock locations, they're very simple; midbass on doors, tweeter on sail panel, coaxials on rear door and/or parcel shelf. It always works.

So one day I isolated the problem by autotuning from the rear seat as if that's the driver seat, and just use my rear door coaxials as front, and parcel shelf coaxials speakers as side plus subwoofer right behind me (it's Nissan Xtrail SUV). 

The awesome sound returned. It was so awesome, my friend thought I have some expensive speakers but in reality it was just JBL GT5 6.5" coaxials running the whole show. My friend even asked if the subwoofer, front door speakers and center speaker are on, because he cannot tell there's a subwoofer right behind him and the soundstage is so far forward and high above the dash.

So, try to to keep everything as simple as possible, and you'll be rewarded. Besides, the simpler the better anyway.


----------



## rprousseau

Hi folks, I'm new to the forum and have some basic questions regarding setup of the MS-8 in a Mercedes CLS500 with the Harman Kardon Logic 7 and Comand head unit.

I have a set of Hertz HSK 165 comps for the front and plan to keep the other stock speakers. I plan to power the comps and the stock door speakers with an Arc Audio XXk4150 using passive cross-overs. For bass I'm using two JLAudio subs in a sealed box and plan to run it of an Arc Audio XXk 2500 amp. All other stock speakers will be powered by the MS-8 internal amps. Is there any problem with my planned set up? Are there any steps I should take to maximize the benefits of the MS-8 using the stock head unit? Any help and advice is much appreciated.

Rudy


----------



## t3sn4f2

rprousseau said:


> Hi folks, I'm new to the forum and have some basic questions regarding setup of the MS-8 in a Mercedes CLS500 with the Harman Kardon Logic 7 and Comand head unit.
> 
> I have a set of Hertz HSK 165 comps for the front and plan to keep the other stock speakers. I plan to power the comps and the stock door speakers with an Arc Audio XXk4150 using passive cross-overs. For bass I'm using two JLAudio subs in a sealed box and plan to run it of an Arc Audio XXk 2500 amp. *All other stock speakers will be powered by the MS-8 internal amps.* Is there any problem with my planned set up? Are there any steps I should take to maximize the benefits of the MS-8 using the stock head unit? Any help and advice is much appreciated.
> 
> Rudy


Gonna need more details.

Where are and what size are all the other speakers besides the aftermarket ones? Will you be running Logic7 with a center speaker? Logic 7 with sides, rears, sides and rear? etc. etc. 

Is the sub going it the trunk, I assume yes, but is the trunk sealed off from the cabin with metal and acoustic insulation to keep the noise out of the cabin? That might cause a problem or at the very least reduce the acoustic efficiency of your sub significantly.


----------



## Salami

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Top of the door panel. I had a 3-way in the doors of my Mini Cooper and it sounded great. A-pillars should be avoided. I'm probably the only peson in the industry who says this, so I'm sure this suggestion is viewed with plenty of skepticism.
> 
> Maybe I should give this up and open a pizza shop.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If you have a center or are only interested in a 1-seat car, doors or sail panels are MUCH better because they're farther away from the windshield. They can be aimed by turning them toward the rear of the car slightly. Aiming for tweeters only matters at VERY high frequencies.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> All of this tweeer aiming is cracking me up. All of the sound from your tweeter below about 10kHz, unless you have a big waveguide, is radiated in all directions. Above 10kHz, the dispersion narrows gradually. That means that you can't "avoid" reflections from the glass by pointing tweeters toward the middle. You can diminish the level of the reflections by movin the tweeter away from them. You can also minimize the effect of destructive interference by mounting the tweeter IN one of the surfaces. This is why I suggest the ssail panel. It's farther away from the windshield. It's in the door so the door and door glass become the baffle, sort of. It helps to make the stage as wide as possible. And...it's easy.


Well color me purple, slap me upside the head and call me a dumb *****!!!! 

Just took my tweeters out of my pillars and taped them to the top of the door panels. Either I am imaging things or the sound just got a WHOLE lot better!!!!

Going to give a it week or so of listening tests to see if I am imaging things before I cut two holes in my door panels. The door panels cost a lot more to replace than the A-pillars.


----------



## thehatedguy

That's why I have holes in my door panels now...lol.


----------



## Salami

I take it when you say holes, you mean they are empty? 

Or did you go from the A-pillars to the doors?


----------



## subwoofery

Salami said:


> I take it when you say holes, you mean they are empty?
> 
> Or did you *go from the A-pillars to the doors?*


... is what he meant  

Kelvin


----------



## taibanl

My MS-8 brethren: I am planning a major amp upgrade and have the choice to run:
- 2x JL XD amps, with dedicated channels for each tweet and a very nice power balance (basically 75w x 10 plus sub)
- 2x JL HD amps, passive mid/tweets, bit more of a power split, nicer amps - LOOKS much better. (basically 150w x5 (2-way sides/1-way center), 75x2 rear, plus sub)

DETAILS IN THIS POST

Comments very appreciated.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Salami said:


> Well color me purple, slap me upside the head and call me a dumb *****!!!!
> 
> Just took my tweeters out of my pillars and taped them to the top of the door panels. Either I am imaging things or the sound just got a WHOLE lot better!!!!
> 
> Going to give a it week or so of listening tests to see if I am imaging things before I cut two holes in my door panels. The door panels cost a lot more to replace than the A-pillars.


Why not the sails?


----------



## Salami

t3sn4f2 said:


> Why not the sails?



Manual mirrors. Don't know if it is worth going through the expense and hassle of switching to power mirrors.


----------



## thehatedguy

I have holes now because I sold by Neo-8Ss and have nothing there to replace them yet.


----------



## duro78

t3sn4f2 said:


> Why not the sails?


Agreed, I've tried different positions in that general area with great success. Went through the trouble of switching to the pillars with horrible results. Unfortunately I was late finding Andy's comments of the ms8 doing tuning better with tweets in the sail plane area.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## t3sn4f2

Salami said:


> Manual mirrors. Don't know if it is worth going through the expense and hassle of switching to power mirrors.


What model/year car is it?


----------



## Salami

t3sn4f2 said:


> What model/year car is it?


96 Honda Civic.


----------



## dlheman

Salami said:


> Well color me purple, slap me upside the head and call me a dumb *****!!!!
> 
> Just took my tweeters out of my pillars and taped them to the top of the door panels. Either I am imaging things or the sound just got a WHOLE lot better!!!!
> 
> Going to give a it week or so of listening tests to see if I am imaging things before I cut two holes in my door panels. The door panels cost a lot more to replace than the A-pillars.


You're not imagining things. 

I used to have a Celica, which has what I now think is a nice door location speaker setup. Midbass is on the door, but not at the bottom of the door, rather it is more in the middle of the door and the tweeter not far above it. And the tweeter is free from any obstructions in its path firing across the cabin as it is above the steering wheel column. 

Here's a pic I stole from the internet.









Just like most of us, I placed my tweeter on the A-pillar, then on the kickpanel, and is not until I use MS8 and learned why, I realised how awesome that tweeter location really is (thanks Andy~!). 

And now I wish I still have the car so I can easily add a midrange between the tweeter and the midbass.


----------



## rcurley55

taibanl said:


> My MS-8 brethren: I am planning a major amp upgrade and have the choice to run:
> - 2x JL XD amps, with dedicated channels for each tweet and a very nice power balance (basically 75w x 10 plus sub)
> - 2x JL HD amps, passive mid/tweets, bit more of a power split, nicer amps - LOOKS much better. (basically 150w x5 (2-way sides/1-way center), 75x2 rear, plus sub)
> 
> DETAILS IN THIS POST
> 
> Comments very appreciated.


I am will be running the latter (600/4 and 900/5). It just seems to work out better for the space I have/power needs.


----------



## Thoraudio

We're doing tweets on doors now? 

Everything old is new again.


----------



## thehatedguy

Center channels, rear fill, doors for the fronts...hell all we need is some iso-loaded bandpasses in the trunks with fleck stone paint to bring back the glory days.


----------



## rawdawg

Don't forget the tweeters behind the rear view mirror...


----------



## Salami

thehatedguy said:


> Center channels, rear fill, doors for the fronts...hell all we need is some iso-loaded bandpasses in the trunks with fleck stone paint to bring back the glory days.


I am going to tomorrow to buy some neon for the sub box and linear actuators for the amp racks. Also some tweed for the door panels.


----------



## thehatedguy

Tweed...yes you took it there.


----------



## Beato

Beato said:


> Question about going active. I’m currently using the passives that came with my comps which are going to the input of the MS8 (using stock HU). I want to go active so I plan to remove the passive xovers (in doors) and run new wires from the tweets to the amp.
> 
> How do you avoid frying things at this point? Since my calibration is set for my previous passive config or if for whatever reason some pop occurs, radio gets bumped on etc.. Or is it as simple as re-wire things up (per above) and just re-run calibration and select 2-way, set hi/mid/low slopes etc..?
> 
> I know its suggested to put a cap before the tweet but that notwithstanding just wanting to ask before I proceed.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> After you rewire, turn on MS-8, choose "restore factory defaults" in the system settings menu and then reconfigure the outputs and recalibrate.



I don't know if Andy will see this or not so this is open to anyone wanting to answer.
I’m still a bit confused with this => When I wire up the tweets to go active, if I plug the tweet wires into the amp, am I not sort of sitting at a full range state (e.g. MS8 is still calibrated for my previous 1way settings) and risk blowing the tweets when I turn on the power?


----------



## rcurley55

Beato said:


> I don't know if Andy will see this or not so this is open to anyone wanting to answer.
> I’m still a bit confused with this => When I wire up the tweets to go active, if I plug the tweet wires into the amp, am I not sort of sitting at a full range state (e.g. MS8 is still calibrated for my previous 1way settings) and risk blowing the tweets when I turn on the power?


If the source volume is turned all the way down, there is no output from the MS-8.


----------



## shamie

Beato said:


> I don't know if Andy will see this or not so this is open to anyone wanting to answer.
> I’m still a bit confused with this => When I wire up the tweets to go active, if I plug the tweet wires into the amp, am I not sort of sitting at a full range state (e.g. MS8 is still calibrated for my previous 1way settings) and risk blowing the tweets when I turn on the power?


If you run it without reconfiguring/recalibrating then yes. Just run through the setup from the start and you should be fine.


----------



## 14642

rawdawg said:


> Don't forget the tweeters behind the rear view mirror...


 
No. 

That message is too short, but I have nothing else to say on the topic.


----------



## 14642

shamie said:


> If you run it without reconfiguring/recalibrating then yes. Just run through the setup from the start and you should be fine.


 
Please put 20uF capacitors on your tweeters. If you can't find 20uF, you can use two 10uF in parallel--you can probably find those at radio shack. Don't sweat being precise. Anything between 15 and 30 will do.


----------



## 14642

Salami said:


> Well color me purple, slap me upside the head and call me a dumb *****!!!!
> 
> Just took my tweeters out of my pillars and taped them to the top of the door panels. Either I am imaging things or the sound just got a WHOLE lot better!!!!
> 
> Going to give a it week or so of listening tests to see if I am imaging things before I cut two holes in my door panels. The door panels cost a lot more to replace than the A-pillars.


Ignore everything Andy says and writes. He don't know sh1t and his car sounds like A$$.


----------



## Salami

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Ignore everything Andy says and writes. He don't know sh1t and his car sounds like A$$.


Well if you don't believe in tweeters behind your rear view mirror what the hell do you know?  



Just kidding. Just been too lazy to try it out. Glad that I did. Not listening to you about a front sub though, got no where else I am willing to give up space.


----------



## shapiro

Andy (or anyone else that can answer), I just installed my MS-8 and love it. I have one extra channel and I'm curious about installing tactile transducers in the car... Would the MS-8 be able to calibrate them or this a bad idea?

In case more info is needed the setup is: 3 channels going to 4 channel amp two of which go to mids, 1 goes to bridged channel on amp then to sub. 2 channels going to tweets, 2 channels going to rears. I have 1 channel left (would like a center but don't want to tear up my dash), my idea is to either install 1 tactile transducer, or possibly 2 run in parallel off that one channel... but not sure how it would calibrate this way (if the wires are the same length it should work...or no?).


----------



## Mark the Bold

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Ignore everything Andy says and writes. He don't know sh1t and his car sounds like A$$.


LOL.

Just curious Andy, being the learned guru of all things SQ, does your car leave the MS-8 autotune as-is? Or do/have you adjusted the graphic EQ to taste in your ride?


----------



## Beato

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Please put 20uF capacitors on your tweeters. If you can't find 20uF, you can use two 10uF in parallel--you can probably find those at radio shack. Don't sweat being precise. Anything between 15 and 30 will do.





rcurley55 said:


> If the source volume is turned all the way down, there is no output from the MS-8.





shamie said:


> If you run it without reconfiguring/recalibrating then yes. Just run through the setup from the start and you should be fine.


Thanks all - its all hooked up and will run through calibration first thing tomorrow


----------



## 14642

Mark the Bold said:


> LOL.
> 
> Just curious Andy, being the learned guru of all things SQ, does your car leave the MS-8 autotune as-is? Or do/have you adjusted the graphic EQ to taste in your ride?


My car doesn't include an MS-8 anymore, but I do tune to the same target curve. I have a bunch of other DSP in it running in a Mac Mini that we're working on for future products.


----------



## 14642

Does everyone here finally understand WHY the doors or sail panels work better than the a-pillars? Have we sifficiently killed the bogus myth of tweeters in a-pillars when a center channel and signal steering is used?


----------



## thehatedguy

Hang on, I was fleck stoning the inside of my iso 6th order enclosure and trying to find my Eclipse rear view mirror center channel (seriously I have one somewhere).


----------



## BuickGN

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Does everyone here finally understand WHY the doors or sail panels work better than the a-pillars? Have we sifficiently killed the bogus myth of tweeters in a-pillars when a center channel and signal steering is used?


Andy, I know the answer is in here but would you still recommend the tweeters be used in the sail panels even without the center being used? I have a few hours free today and my stage is all over the place. I'm up for some experimenting. They are currently in the stock dash locations firing up at the windshield, a couple inches away from the windshield.


----------



## thehatedguy

I would since it's the best thing we have in the car in terms of a real baffle that is away from a bunch of close reflective surfaces.


----------



## 14642

BuickGN said:


> Andy, I know the answer is in here but would you still recommend the tweeters be used in the sail panels even without the center being used? I have a few hours free today and my stage is all over the place. I'm up for some experimenting. They are currently in the stock dash locations firing up at the windshield, a couple inches away from the windshield.


 
It'll only image in one seat at a time without a center, but I'd try them in the sail panels.. Just stick them on there with some velcro and recalibrate.


----------



## BuickGN

thehatedguy said:


> I would since it's the best thing we have in the car in terms of a real baffle that is away from a bunch of close reflective surfaces.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> It'll only image in one seat at a time without a center, but I'd try them in the sail panels.. Just stick them on there with some velcro and recalibrate.


Thanks to both of you. Going to try it now.


----------



## thehatedguy

The only thing you would be wasting is the time to pull the tweeters out to see.

Might work for you, might not...but I would bet it will be better.


----------



## BuickGN

I taped the tweeters in various door locations from the top most part of the door down toward the middle of the door and everywhere in between. It still sounded better in the factor locations.

Now on to the real problem... I installed the Dyn 430 mids a while back as I was told, polarity and all. While I was messing with the tweeters I swapped polarity on both of them and even without doing another tune, the center image became much more focused (a little to the right) and the music was more detailed. This wasn't a small difference that required hours of critical listening, it was an instant improvement. 

So as of now, I last calibrated with the tweeters in the sail panels and the mids' polarity as it has been for the past several months. I put the tweeters back in the dash, flipped the polarity and I'm afraid to recalibrate and ruin the sound. I'm going to recalibrate for the current setup eventually but I figure I'll give it a day or two. I'm happy with it as is but I can't help thinking it might sound a little better with the calibration done for what I currently have. If only there was a way to go back to the previous calibration if I don't like the new one.

To be fair, I should try a new calibration with the tweeters in the sail panel since I've reversed the mids' polarity to give the sails a proper chance. I just can't help but think in some cars with the tweeters firing right into the glass a couple inches away, maybe it's not such a bad thing when compared to a pillar mounted tweeter that has to deal with more late reflections.


----------



## t3sn4f2

BuickGN said:


> I taped the tweeters in various door locations from the top most part of the door down toward the middle of the door and everywhere in between. It still sounded better in the factor locations.
> 
> Now on to the real problem... I installed the Dyn 430 mids a while back as I was told, polarity and all. While I was messing with the tweeters I swapped polarity on both of them and even without doing another tune, the center image became much more focused (a little to the right) and the music was more detailed. This wasn't a small difference that required hours of critical listening, it was an instant improvement.
> 
> So as of now, I last calibrated with the tweeters in the sail panels and the mids' polarity as it has been for the past several months. I put the tweeters back in the dash, flipped the polarity and I'm afraid to recalibrate and ruin the sound. I'm going to recalibrate for the current setup eventually but I figure I'll give it a day or two. I'm happy with it as is but I can't help thinking it might sound a little better with the calibration done for what I currently have. If only there was a way to go back to the previous calibration if I don't like the new one.
> 
> To be fair, I should try a new calibration with the tweeters in the sail panel since I've reversed the mids' polarity to give the sails a proper chance. I just can't help but think in some cars with the tweeters firing right into the glass a couple inches away, maybe it's not such a bad thing when compared to a pillar mounted tweeter that has to deal with more late reflections.


Did you aim them back so that the left and right were no more than 30 degree off axis to your head. A 1" tweeter mounted flat on a door panel (ie 80 degrees off axis) without any reflective surfaces to reflect the high energy to you is going to sound just as bad as one crammed into the dash. The sails on that car should give you a golden opportunity for that mounting angle.










Edit: Wait, it looks like they aren't THAT off axis on the top of the panel. But still, it will help to get them in that range.


----------



## BuickGN

At one point I had them completely on axis. I did probably 20 tunes with them facing on and off axis from various points in the door but I did not try a retune with the mids' polarity reversed and the tweets in the sails.


----------



## 14642

BuickGN said:


> At one point I had them completely on axis. I did probably 20 tunes with them facing on and off axis from various points in the door but I did not try a retune with the mids' polarity reversed and the tweets in the sails.


Is there a center speaker in your car?


----------



## BuickGN

No center. I had a 6.5" in there for a while but it was so cheap it sounded like crap. Much better without. I'll eventually spring for a decent center but not for a while.


----------



## Siruis

Hey All, New user here and need some desperate help setting up my new JBL MS-8. I have a 2009 BMW 328 XI Coupe with the standard HIFI system. Yesterday i installed the MS-8 using Technic's plug and play amp, which was actually incredibly simple, given i am a complete noob and know nothing about audio, specifically car audio.

Anyhow, if someone could please please help me setup my MS-8 on my HIFI system, that would be wonderful!!

Technic told me this:
Your HiFi OEM system is configured as follows:

Front = L/R mid/tweeters = 2-channels
Woofers = L/R woofers = 2-channels
Rear = L/R mid/tweeters = 2-channels


The OEM mid/tweeters are connected in parallel, with a cap as a high pass filter, driven by a single channel. Therefore, the 4 mid/tweeters sets in your OEM HiFi system use 4-channels. 

Total of 6 OEM amp output channels.

Also - the harness was wired as follows:
The harness itself is wired to the MS-8 high level outputs with these assignments:

- CH1 = Left front mid/tweeter
- CH2 = Right front mid/tweeter
- CH3 = Left woofer 
- CH4 = Right woofer 
- CH5 = Left rear mid/tweeter
- CH6 = Right rear mid/tweeter
- CH7 = Center (not used for now)
- CH8 = Not used


So, now this is where i need help, in running the setup on my MS-8. So once the amp powers-up, then i do the following: (please be sure to correct me or provide more detailed setup)

- skip input setup (I skipped input setup)
- Sub = None (I put none for the Sub)
- Front = 2-way, 40Hz subsonic filter at 18dB, 120Hz at 12dB Hi/Lo (I set this for the front)
- Center = None
- Sides = Should this be none??
- Rear = 1-way, 120Hz at 18dB

So that is the first step of setting up the MS-8. Is the above correct for my car or does anyone know the best setup options??

Ok next step, setup shows me the Channel Selection Menu. This is also where i ran into problems, inputting the correct for each channel: This is whta i was doing:

Channel 1 - FL Hi (For mid/tweeter?)
Channel 2 - FR Hi (For mid/tweeter?)
Channel 3 - FL Low (For woofer?)
Channel 4 - FR Low (For woofer?)
Channel 5 - RL (Rear left??)
Channel 6 - RR (rear right??)
Channel 7 - not used
Channel 8 - not used.

This is as far as i made it, so im not even sure what the next steps are. Any suggestions or help to set this up is very very greatly appreciated!!


----------



## taibanl

1) if you have hifi, why was your harness configured for speaker level in?
2) channel assignments are correct
3) try 24db slopes, 200hz for lo/hi pass


----------



## Siruis

Ok just setup the amp finally and was very impressed with the sound. I used the following specs for setup, please let me know if I should change anything:

skip input setup 
- Sub = None 
- Front = 2-way, 40Hz subsonic filter at 18dB, 120Hz at 12dB Hi/Lo (I set this for the front)
- Center = None
- Sides = 1-way, 120Hz at 18dB
- Rear = None
Then for the next step, the channel selection, i did the following: 

Channel 1 - FL Hi 
Channel 2 - FR Hi 
Channel 3 - FL Low 
Channel 4 - FR Low 
Channel 5 - SL 
Channel 6 - SR 
Channel 7 - not used
Channel 8 - not used.

Anyone have any configurations for where i should set treb, bass etc.. I am a complete audio noob. Also, any suggestions for mounting the MS-8?? Thanks!!


----------



## dlheman

taibanl said:


> 1) if you have hifi, why was your harness configured for speaker level in?


If I have the standard Hi-Fi BMW audio, which I saw the schematic showing 5v preout from the OEM head unit, should I just solder RCA heads onto the Front L/R and Sub L/R wire coming from head unit then connect to MS8 low level input?


----------



## Beato

Looking for some assistance with tuning. I have read the manual and this thread. I recently switched to active and am not using the stock rears for now. So its just a 2 way front and sub. Typical stock speaker door placement – sails and kick. Random interior web pic









Car is a hatch, with stock HU (non Bose) running Focal 165 A1 comps and a JL 8W3 in a AI enclosure. Using a JL XD700/5 amp with all xovers bypassed. 

Specs:
6.5” Mids
Sensitivity 92 dB
Fs - 77.95 Hz

Tweets
Sensitivity 94 dB
Fs - 3066 Hz

Sub 
Fs - 35.14 Hz

Problem is the no midbass scenario, way too bright. Just real hi’s and sub. I covered (duct tape) the tweets during all sweeps. During pick noise I turned down the gains for all (the tweet channel gain was basically off). I’m using HDRLC sub control on the dash	which was turned down (counterclockwise). During the pinknoise, the passenger side sure seems louder then drivers side? Sweeps were barely audible, sub couldn’t even hear. MS8 volume was -45.

Xovers I tried:
Subsonic Filter - 20
Subsonic Slope – 12 +24

Sub/Front Xover – 80, 150, 200
Sub/Front Slope – 24

2way
Front Lo/Hi Xover – 3500 + 4000
Front Lo/Hi Slope - 24

After calibration, stage seems to be mostly on the passenger side and pretty much towards its floor (most of the time anyway). On the EQ as a test, I boosted all the lows and cut everything from 600hz and up as well as on the tone control, I reduced treble and raised bass and midrange. This all "helps" but I can tell its far, far from being correct. There is no mids/lo. These were just sort of a test and pretty extreme adjustments.

The level matching thing really seems to have a profound effect and as it’s been stated umpteen times, the general rule is to set it at about 2v and you should be fine. Can someone clarify this as in when to set it at this value? I thought that while pinknoise was playing, you set the ms8 volume (low enough) and then go to your amp and adjust (turn down) gains so the pinknoise volume is just audible on all channels (try to get them the same “db”). Then continue with calibration etc… Afterwards, go back to the amps and turn up the gains to the 2v range, no? 

During the CD reading / input phase, should the amp gains be set at the 2v range so the HU volume doesn’t have to be cranked up so high to get the three OK, OK, OK? If so, then the gains have to be turned down for the pinknoise portion correct? I believe my gains were really low during this input phase.

Below are some of comments others have made and I gather are worth a try:
1.	Changing polarity. IIRC, Andy stated a large percentage of issues are caused by one of the speakers out of phase/wrong polarity. Can this be done at the amp => swap the + / - or does it have to be done at the speaker?
2.	Disconnect tweets during first set of sweeps only, and then re-connect for remainder of calibration
3.	“3way ms8 using 2way and the sub as front low” – how is this done in a 2way setup => #4?
4.	Disconnect tweets and sub for first sweeps then reconnect
5.	pg 294

connect sub using amp crossover
configure MS-8 crossovers
using MS-8 test noise, balance amp gains and crossover
disconnect sub
run first acoustic calibration sweep to TA
connect sub
run remaining sweeps to EQ
6.	Quote from quitefly “Next if running your front as 2ways set up your mids to bandpass from 90 to 2000 and try your tweets from 2000 up both at 24db” => How is this done, I don’t understand the bandpass comment as you can only set the xovers to one “value”?

Anyone thoughts suggestions would be most appreciated.


----------



## dlheman

You can change the polarity wiring from the amplifier, is just a matter of switching +/-.

Another thing you can do is to check if your midbass is properly fitted to the door, that is, no leaks around the speaker and its baffle. MS8 is a pretty clever piece of kit, it actually helps you noticed when there are mistakes, which otherwise went unnoticed. Point is, the midbass must work properly before MS8 does its thing. 

You don't need to dial in at precisely 2v on the amplifier either. Simply, dial in the gain as much as you can without it being distorted and you're good to go. Except for the subwoofer, keep it low at a point where you can only hear it but not feel it during sweep.

Since you are running active, you don't need to cover the tweeter during first sweep. In fact, you should not cover it because MS8 will individually time aligned the tweeter and midbass. It is only for passive setup where tweeter and midbass are considered a single driver, and depending on its location it can be far apart from each other, to which covering the tweeter may solved issues. But is not always necessary.

As for connecting rear speakers, I fully recommend it. Wire it directly from MS8 and dial in 100hz/24db.


----------



## pimpndahoz

I had the no midbass issue and this is just what I know worked for me. Before you try a bunch of stuff try this. Turn your subwoofer way up in the system level menu. Now turn that gain down on the amp till your sub sounds normal again. Listen. You can also add a little bass in the audio controls menu. Between those two thing you might see a huge improvement, you still have the graphic eq as well. Let me know if that works for you, I'm curious.


----------



## BuickGN

I think I'm officially throwing in the towel with the MS8. My system is back to sounding like a clock radio. After swapping the polarity of both mids, the system came to life again, better than it has in the past year. It actually had a stage and clarity and detail were much improved. So after listening to it this way without doing a calibration after flipping polarity, I did a calibration. It sounds absolutely awful like it did before. So I swapped polarity one mid at a time. After swapping one mid, everything improved almost as good as it was previously. I swapped polarity on the other mid and it made it worse. So I ended up with only one mid out of phase. I did a calibration, back to sounding like crap. Flipped polarity on one mid, slight improvement. I've had enough.

For the 24 hours I had a good stage and great sound, it made me realize just how bad it normally sounds.


----------



## Neil_J

Queue "Another one bites the dust" by Queen. What processor are you going with next? Both the Mosconi and Arc PS8 are awfully great deals right now.


----------



## BuickGN

Neil_J said:


> Queue "Another one bites the dust" by Queen. What processor are you going with next? Both the Mosconi and Arc PS8 are awfully great deals right now.


Is the arc out yet? I had planned on a Bit One but I'm still open.


----------



## Neil_J

BuickGN said:


> Is the arc out yet? I had planned on a Bit One but I'm still open.


If you know the right people to talk to, yea  lots of cars at SBN were running the ps8, but I think they were all Team Arc. I've not heard an official release date yet. The Mosconi is available now, if you're in a hurry to get another dsp.


----------



## pimpndahoz

BuickGN said:


> I think I'm officially throwing in the towel with the MS8. My system is back to sounding like a clock radio. After swapping the polarity of both mids, the system came to life again, better than it has in the past year. It actually had a stage and clarity and detail were much improved. So after listening to it this way without doing a calibration after flipping polarity, I did a calibration. It sounds absolutely awful like it did before. So I swapped polarity one mid at a time. After swapping one mid, everything improved almost as good as it was previously. I swapped polarity on the other mid and it made it worse. So I ended up with only one mid out of phase. I did a calibration, back to sounding like crap. Flipped polarity on one mid, slight improvement. I've had enough.
> 
> For the 24 hours I had a good stage and great sound, it made me realize just how bad it normally sounds.


I'm almost there with you GN, just not quite yet.....My midbass issue and overall lack of dynamics and that "live" sound Im searching for just isn't being found, so maybe time to move on.


----------



## Beato

dlheman said:


> You can change the polarity wiring from the amplifier, is just a matter of switching +/-.
> 
> Another thing you can do is to check if your midbass is properly fitted to the door, that is, no leaks around the speaker and its baffle. MS8 is a pretty clever piece of kit, it actually helps you noticed when there are mistakes, which otherwise went unnoticed. Point is, the midbass must work properly before MS8 does its thing.
> 
> You don't need to dial in at precisely 2v on the amplifier either. Simply, dial in the gain as much as you can without it being distorted and you're good to go. Except for the subwoofer, keep it low at a point where you can only hear it but not feel it during sweep.
> 
> Since you are running active, you don't need to cover the tweeter during first sweep. In fact, you should not cover it because MS8 will individually time aligned the tweeter and midbass. It is only for passive setup where tweeter and midbass are considered a single driver, and depending on its location it can be far apart from each other, to which covering the tweeter may solved issues. But is not always necessary.
> 
> As for connecting rear speakers, I fully recommend it. Wire it directly from MS8 and dial in 100hz/24db.


Thanks. I reran calibration w/o covering up tweets etc...
xovers were subsonic 30 @ 24db
sub front 80 @ 24db
mid/hi 4k @ 24db
-45 on the MS8 volume
sweeps were quite

Result was better, stage seemed to move up a bit and was better balanced. Still bright though. 

I then reversed polarity at the amp on both mids. That definitely made a difference. Hard to describe. The brightness went away or was decreased. Although the "volume" seemed to be lowered a bit as I had to turn it up more then previously. Weird. Still hard to say if it increased (in a good way) the mids/lower freq as opposed to having the high freq removed. Still seems a bit thin - it just seems like a 6.5 driver is cable of producing more oomph, more something........

I dunno if changing polarity after calibration is the proper way to do it, but I'll try calibration with the speakers reversed.

The latest results are a step in the right direction, but I need some seat time, listening and tweaking. Not giving up yet that's for sure


----------



## Beato

pimpndahoz said:


> I had the no midbass issue and this is just what I know worked for me. Before you try a bunch of stuff try this. Turn your subwoofer way up in the system level menu. Now turn that gain down on the amp till your sub sounds normal again. Listen. You can also add a little bass in the audio controls menu. Between those two thing you might see a huge improvement, you still have the graphic eq as well. Let me know if that works for you, I'm curious.


Thanks for the input. I did try your suggestions first, but didn't seem to make much of an impact. It did "add"' more lower freq but still seemed really unnatural or forced. It wasn't smooth at all. 

I'm still tweaking though and as I stated above it just seems like the drivers should produce a lot more oomph and presence, base is the word I guess. Not sub freq, but during the tunes I'm playing the toms are just too clicky. Anyway, back to it I guess.


----------



## dlheman

Beato said:


> Thanks. I reran calibration w/o covering up tweets etc...
> xovers were subsonic 30 @ 24db
> sub front 80 @ 24db
> mid/hi 4k @ 24db
> -45 on the MS8 volume
> sweeps were quite
> 
> Result was better, stage seemed to move up a bit and was better balanced. Still bright though.
> 
> I then reversed polarity at the amp on both mids. That definitely made a difference. Hard to describe. The brightness went away or was decreased. Although the "volume" seemed to be lowered a bit as I had to turn it up more then previously. Weird. Still hard to say if it increased (in a good way) the mids/lower freq as opposed to having the high freq removed. Still seems a bit thin - it just seems like a 6.5 driver is cable of producing more oomph, more something........
> 
> I dunno if changing polarity after calibration is the proper way to do it, but I'll try calibration with the speakers reversed.
> 
> The latest results are a step in the right direction, but I need some seat time, listening and tweaking. Not giving up yet that's for sure


Another thing you can to diagnose your system is to defeat L7 and defeat processing, and adjust your gain on amp as if there is no MS8. The crossover settings don't change, so don't worry. 

Once you are able to get the sound to your liking, try running the calibration again, however you may have to turn down your subwoofer's gain before you do this. 

If for some reason you cannot get the sound to your liking when adjusting manually, then maybe you need to change the crossover settings. I saw on Crutchfield website the crossover point for your Focal 165 A1 is 4800hz/12db for the mid/tweet. So try the following:

Sub/mid - 80hz/24db
Mid/Hi - 4800hz/12db

By the way, how was your tweeter wired? Did you put a capacitor or you directly wire it to amplifier?


----------



## 14642

Beato said:


> Thanks. I reran calibration w/o covering up tweets etc...
> xovers were subsonic 30 @ 24db
> sub front 80 @ 24db
> mid/hi 4k @ 24db
> -45 on the MS8 volume
> sweeps were quite
> 
> Result was better, stage seemed to move up a bit and was better balanced. Still bright though.
> 
> I then reversed polarity at the amp on both mids. That definitely made a difference. Hard to describe. The brightness went away or was decreased. Although the "volume" seemed to be lowered a bit as I had to turn it up more then previously. Weird. Still hard to say if it increased (in a good way) the mids/lower freq as opposed to having the high freq removed. Still seems a bit thin - it just seems like a 6.5 driver is cable of producing more oomph, more something........
> 
> I dunno if changing polarity after calibration is the proper way to do it, but I'll try calibration with the speakers reversed.
> 
> The latest results are a step in the right direction, but I need some seat time, listening and tweaking. Not giving up yet that's for sure


What are the crossover settings on your amplifier?


----------



## Beato

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> What are the crossover settings on your amplifier?


Everything is bypassed at the moment, but the tweets are chnl 1+2, mids 3+4 and sub. (click to enlarge)









The amp can be bi-amp'd or tri-amp'd which is what I was using prior. I had the tweets x10 @ 4800hz (in between the 200-500 mark), mids BP 80'ish


----------



## Beato

dlheman said:


> Another thing you can to diagnose your system is to defeat L7 and defeat processing, and adjust your gain on amp as if there is no MS8. The crossover settings don't change, so don't worry.
> 
> Once you are able to get the sound to your liking, try running the calibration again, however you may have to turn down your subwoofer's gain before you do this.
> 
> If for some reason you cannot get the sound to your liking when adjusting manually, then maybe you need to change the crossover settings. I saw on Crutchfield website the crossover point for your Focal 165 A1 is 4800hz/12db for the mid/tweet. So try the following:
> 
> Sub/mid - 80hz/24db
> Mid/Hi - 4800hz/12db
> 
> By the way, how was your tweeter wired? Did you put a capacitor or you directly wire it to amplifier?


Thanks for those suggestions, its appreciated. I don't use L7 at the moment, trying to focus on getting the 2way solid. My next calibration I'll try the xovers you pointed out - don't know if there will be much diff between 4k/24db and 4.8k/12db but will try. No cap on the tweet yet, but that's coming though.


----------



## radarcontact

dlheman said:


> Another thing you can to diagnose your system is to defeat L7 and defeat processing, and adjust your gain on amp as if there is no MS8. The crossover settings don't change, so don't worry.
> 
> Once you are able to get the sound to your liking, try running the calibration again...


How ironic, I just logged in to ask that question!

To elaborate, when the ms-8 is running with "processing defeated", the individual amp's volumes are not boosted/attenuated? This seems like the best way to do things, really. Setup the system, defeat processing, then aim the tweets, play with the crossovers, adjust the gains, etc. Basically, get it as close to perfect as possible "physically", THEN do an auto tune. Concur?


iPad/TapaTalk


----------



## Beato

Well, I’m not sure what exactly was the biggest contributor to this weekend’s tuning session, but I have to say I have things operating absolutely F’ing beautiful now. Killer.

Went from the “clockradio with sub’ sound to a really stellar sounding environment. 

Switching both mid’s phase was a big deal and after various calibrations with diff xovers it started to sound good and headed in the right direction. I went active as well. 

However, I brought the stock rears into play (running of MS8) and BAM, everything was just solid. I couldn’t believe it. I did notice though, when I went over 100Hz with the rear xovers, too much information was being played for my liking in the rears. The front stage etc.. was still good mind you but just a tad bit too much info was coming from the rear. 

Anyway, I re-calibrated, stayed at 100Hz/24db for rears and now I don’t even notice sound coming from the rears (very little) OR if there is, it’s just really nicely balanced., it’s all upfront, centered, bass isn’t coming from the hatch and the mids (lower freq mid) aren’t muddy at all. Seriously, night and day difference on how good it sounds now. Unreal.

Now, I haven’t had a chance to get much seat time on the road and hope I’m not a bit premature but I was ecstatic this afternoon. I was hearing things I’ve been waiting to hear (certain notes, chords, tom hits, clearness/smoothness) that I know are there (from home system)

Another thing I noticed, and maybe it’s just me/ my setup /some illusion etc.. but the gain settings between the sub, mid, tweets during diagnostic (pink noise) really made a difference on the final tune. I could tell something wasn’t right at different points during all of this. Again I dunno, but I wrote down how I got to where it is now. 

Well that's my update, can’t wait for tomorrows commute – did I really just say that


----------



## dlheman

radarcontact said:


> How ironic, I just logged in to ask that question!
> 
> To elaborate, when the ms-8 is running with "processing defeated", the individual amp's volumes are not boosted/attenuated? This seems like the best way to do things, really. Setup the system, defeat processing, then aim the tweets, play with the crossovers, adjust the gains, etc. Basically, get it as close to perfect as possible "physically", THEN do an auto tune. Concur?
> 
> 
> iPad/TapaTalk


Precisely. I aim for nice sounding front stage from a typical sound system without time alignment and e.q, making sure the sound is quite balanced from bass, midrange and treble. 

But as I mentioned before, the only thing you may need to change before you proceed to auto-tune is to lower the subwoofer gain to a point where during auto-tune calibration sweep, the sub is whisper quiet that is you cannot feel it at all.


----------



## dlheman

Beato said:


> Well, I’m not sure what exactly was the biggest contributor to this weekend’s tuning session, but I have to say I have things operating absolutely F’ing beautiful now. Killer.
> 
> Went from the “clockradio with sub’ sound to a really stellar sounding environment.
> 
> Switching both mid’s phase was a big deal and after various calibrations with diff xovers it started to sound good and headed in the right direction. I went active as well.
> 
> However, I brought the stock rears into play (running of MS8) and BAM, everything was just solid. I couldn’t believe it. I did notice though, when I went over 100Hz with the rear xovers, too much information was being played for my liking in the rears. The front stage etc.. was still good mind you but just a tad bit too much info was coming from the rear.
> 
> Anyway, I re-calibrated, stayed at 100Hz/24db for rears and now I don’t even notice sound coming from the rears (very little) OR if there is, it’s just really nicely balanced., it’s all upfront, centered, bass isn’t coming from the hatch and the mids (lower freq mid) aren’t muddy at all. Seriously, night and day difference on how good it sounds now. Unreal.
> 
> Now, I haven’t had a chance to get much seat time on the road and hope I’m not a bit premature but I was ecstatic this afternoon. I was hearing things I’ve been waiting to hear (certain notes, chords, tom hits, clearness/smoothness) that I know are there (from home system)
> 
> Another thing I noticed, and maybe it’s just me/ my setup /some illusion etc.. but the gain settings between the sub, mid, tweets during diagnostic (pink noise) really made a difference on the final tune. I could tell something wasn’t right at different points during all of this. Again I dunno, but I wrote down how I got to where it is now.
> 
> Well that's my update, can’t wait for tomorrows commute – did I really just say that


Well done.

MS8 side channels helps widen the soundstage, and rear channels helps depth. Both helps creates an illusion of a larger room, and surrounding effects. Pretty damn cool when you are listening to dance music as it should feel like you're in a club with all these special effects sound trippin' around you. 

And, if you don't have rear channels you should switch off Logic 7. But, I don't suggests you do that because Logic 7 is just awesome once you hear it running properly. So stick with having sides and/or rear. 

Which crossover point you ended up using for your front?


----------



## Tendean17

I wanna share my experience calibrating using MS-8 so far.

MS-8's user here always says to turndown the subwoofer gain and level match all the driver .. I think we all read about that .. but please try my experience first in case you lost dynamic or something else and if you still have a problem to make it sound right .. it works for me constanly .. I know we have various equipment of course, but please try my sugestion 1x .. especially if you have 3 way in the front with external power and didn’t get good result.

Flip all your speaker back in phase because one out of phase will screw your midbass at low freq and signal steering. For Subwoofer you need to experiment differently.

- Turn your Tweeter Gain Down -> almost zero.
- Turn your Midrange Gain Down -> almost zero.
- Turn your Midbass Gain a little up -> at 9 oclock for the first try.
- Calibrate without subwoofer and center just to make sure your front is good enough.
- Start MS-8 volume at about -45.

These what i'm thinking about : 

> Midbass speakers tend to be less efficient than midrange and tweeters they always need more power also .. MS-8 try to cut rather than boost. If your Midrange and tweeter are louder than the midbass, so MS-8 will cut all the freq.range after EQ for your midrange and tweeter to level match the target .. if the difference is too big than sometimes it will make you hear like stock speaker sound and lost dynamic because the EQ will cut very big amount of db. When your midbass almost equal in level with your midrange than MS-8 won't cut all the freq.range to match the target after EQ and your system will get well fast. I suggest to raise the gain from midbass because it’s difficult to only level match using ear when the midbass only playing some low freq.

> When you lowpass the midbass a little higher, that will be different response for your midbass because amplitude response is not flat to all freq .. it’s still no problem .. MS-8 try to flatten from 160Hz to about 2KHz. From me .. let's start with 800Hz for your Midbass and Midrange.

> If you happy with the sound then you can start to add subwoofer .. Start with Gain a little up from zero point at the amplifier .. the target curve for subwoofer is very big its 9 db above the midrange .. after your front stage is correct then experiment with subwoofer gain is more easy since your front stage is not a problem .. If your sweep is too loud just lowering the MS-8 volume and restart the calibration .. I suggest the default xover point at 80Hz/24db because when you boost the subwoofer or midbass it’s not only boost the subwoofer or midbass .. it’s shelving filter to boost all channels below 60Hz and never above 160Hz .. MS-8 will change the slope to maintain xover point. I think 80Hz is the best balance for MS-8 to keep bass upfront, that will handle some by sub and some by midbass together .. 

I maybe wrong but that’s my experience .. When once you ever found and listen that MS-8 system basic system sound great, it will be the starting point for you to work around with rear or center .. until made you satisfied the result.

Hope that helps .. forgive me if that’s not work for you .


----------



## paulpassat

Hope someone can help. I have been trying to dial in this Ms-8 for over a week. This is what i am running; Audi MMI concert radio, 2 way 6" SB17NRX and the tweeters SB26STCN.I have the front crossed low to high 2600 24db slope.The 2-way is being powered by a tru S45 set at full pass. The gains are set with tweeter very minimal and the mid set at a quater of the way up. I have a dayton 3 inch center, crossed at 300, 24 db. Sides crossed at 300 and 24 db. I have a JL sub 20 subsonic 12 db. I also deadened the doors. Here is were the problem lies. It just sounds like everything is coming from the center channel. There is no bass up front and the tweeters are very loud also even though the gain on the amp is minimal. I did 2 different calibrations. One from the drivers and one from the passenger seat.The passenger seat sounded a lot better, More mid bass also when i just have it set to the front it also sounds better. I just know that it can sound better. I hope someone can help. Thanks


----------



## Beato

dlheman said:


> Well done.
> 
> MS8 side channels helps widen the soundstage, and rear channels helps depth. Both helps creates an illusion of a larger room, and surrounding effects. Pretty damn cool when you are listening to dance music as it should feel like you're in a club with all these special effects sound trippin' around you.
> 
> And, if you don't have rear channels you should switch off Logic 7. But, I don't suggests you do that because Logic 7 is just awesome once you hear it running properly. So stick with having sides and/or rear.
> 
> Which crossover point you ended up using for your front?


Well, I did a fair amount of road testing today and am still extremely pleased since this last tune. Its sitting really, really good. Funny thing is, I haven't hardly touched any of the audio controls - a little sub freq and 12k bump on the eq and a little mid and sub increase on the tone control and that's it. 

I haven't listened to L7 yet as I always disable it since I'm not running a center. I think there is still areas to improve and I plan on getting an RTA just to see where things are at but I'm soo pleased right now, it's really a joy to listen. 

Another odd thing, the volume level on the HU has changed significantly - where I was running say at 20 its now 10-15? It must the rears that have added this sensitivity or added "volume"? Its not distorted either, it's really clean and I haven't changed much in the way of the gain settings => they are not set higher than previous tunes.

The fronts are: sub/mid 80Hz @24db, and mid/hi 4500k @24db


----------



## jbradle7

paulpassat said:


> Hope someone can help. I have been trying to dial in this Ms-8 for over a week. This is what i am running; Audi MMI concert radio, 2 way 6" SB17NRX and the tweeters SB26STCN.I have the front crossed low to high 2600 24db slope.The 2-way is being powered by a tru S45 set at full pass. The gains are set with tweeter very minimal and the mid set at a quater of the way up. I have a dayton 3 inch center, crossed at 300, 24 db. Sides crossed at 300 and 24 db. I have a JL sub 20 subsonic 12 db. I also deadened the doors. Here is were the problem lies. It just sounds like everything is coming from the center channel. There is no bass up front and the tweeters are very loud also even though the gain on the amp is minimal. I did 2 different calibrations. One from the drivers and one from the passenger seat.The passenger seat sounded a lot better, More mid bass also when i just have it set to the front it also sounds better. I just know that it can sound better. I hope someone can help. Thanks


Any updates Paul or still struggling with the new set-up? I'm certainly a novice here but my thoughts are that by turning your amp gains down on the tweeters, the MS-8 may be boosting those freq's it sees as being lower during the calibration. This may be contributing to your loud tweeters?

Also you could try running calibration and choose center "none" to see if that makes much difference letting the MS-8 create a phantom center.

Any reason you have the sides crossed at 300hz? If those tweeters being so close to your ears are buggin you, you can use the system levels to go more Front bias.

The only other thing I can think is maybe try setting your front hi/low xover a bit higher (+3500hz) so more freqs are being played through the woofer instead of so much to the tweeters?

Sorry that's all I got bud... I'm not the best one to be answering questions here, but since none of the experts have chimed in yet figured I could throw out a few ideas.

BOL,
J


----------



## thx138

I need some help. I looked at this thread but wow there is a lot to read. Anyway will this unit mix outputs? What I would like to do is run the rear channels off the built in amp and the fronts & sub off my external amp.


----------



## rain27

thx138 said:


> I need some help. I looked at this thread but wow there is a lot to read. Anyway will this unit mix outputs? What I would like to do is run the rear channels off the built in amp and the fronts & sub off my external amp.


Yes, the MS-8 can do this.


----------



## subwoofery

thx138 said:


> I need some help. I looked at this thread but wow there is a lot to read. Anyway will this unit mix outputs? What I would like to do is run the rear channels off the built in amp and the fronts & sub off my external amp.


You're good to go :thumbsup: 

Kelvin


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## nautic70

This thread has me kinda freaked out, I bought an ms-8 because I wanted to run active and have a dsp and don't have the time or knowledge to set up a bit 1. I was gonna swap out my 3sixty.2 and 2 rockford amps and run the 6 channel zuki and the ms8 I have because the ms8 adjusts everything automatically. Now I don't know what the hell to do.


----------



## subwoofery

nautic70 said:


> This thread has me kinda freaked out, I bought an ms-8 because I wanted to run active and have a dsp and don't have the time or knowledge to set up a bit 1. I was gonna swap out my 3sixty.2 and 2 rockford amps and run the 6 channel zuki and the ms8 I have because the ms8 adjusts everything automatically. Now I don't know what the hell to do.


If you decide to buy the MS-8, read the manual. There's ton of infos on how to properly optimize the MS-8. 
The MS-8 is still a processor - even though it auto-tunes, there are some things that it can't do like crossing a tweeter @ 250Hz or lowpassing a midbass way above beaming @ 12kHz (exageration of course). 

Learn from the forum, optimize the installation of your drivers, install the MS-8 and learn how to use it, optimize your MS-8 by trying stuffs and making notes of what works and sounds good and what doesn't... 
Simple as that... The MS-8 auto-tunes, so if you don't like something, you might have done something wrong. 

Kelvin


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## 14642

Hey Nautic70,
MS-8 adjusts the EQ automatically, but you still get to define the crossovers and tune with a 31-band EQ after the automatic EQ does its thing. If you've already bought one, read the owner's manual and follow it carefully. If you have questions, send me a PM and I'll walk you through the setup either via email or over the phone.


----------



## shapiro

nautic70 said:


> This thread has me kinda freaked out, I bought an ms-8 because I wanted to run active and have a dsp and don't have the time or knowledge to set up a bit 1. I was gonna swap out my 3sixty.2 and 2 rockford amps and run the 6 channel zuki and the ms8 I have because the ms8 adjusts everything automatically. Now I don't know what the hell to do.


Dont let some of those posts scare you, there's sometimes a lot of tweaking and adjusting to get it right, but look at all the help there is here in case you get stuck. Mine sounded terrible the first couple times I calibrated it, had no midbass at all. After getting the crossover points and gains set right (I think my biggest problem was getting the gains set just right, once I got it helped a lot) I adjusted the treble/mid/bass setting on my HU, played with the EQ, and now it sounds AMAZING.


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## ErinH

Andy, this isn't really regarding the product but in some ways it may be...

There have been a lot of people commenting that the center image is often a bit to the left (in front of the driver). I noted it when I had the ms-8. 

Lately I've been playing around with measurement gear and methods and the one thing I find is that when I set the impulse response to be matched the exact same on all drivers (let's assume allowing a subwoofer to play to 1khz has merit here), the center image is skewed toward the driver's side more than in the middle of acoustic center.
So, I played with just moving the mic to the left to see if this might help offset the results and it does... but the shift of the mic has to be an inch or two. Certainly a small shift doesn't have an effect.

I say all that to say this...
Have you guys explored why aligning impulse peaks in a car might result in this so many times? Even when I'm not using the ms-8 and using various measurement gear/software, the result seems to be the same for me in different vehicles. 
I'm just wondering if there's a common element here. I know aligning the impulse response in time isn't the only consideration for this; there's level matching to be done, but still... it seems that even a simple attenuation of the side doesn't resolve the problem wholly.

Just curious...

- Erin


----------



## SSSnake

bikinpunk said:


> Andy, this isn't really regarding the product but in some ways it may be...
> 
> There have been a lot of people commenting that the center image is often a bit to the left (in front of the driver). I noted it when I had the ms-8.
> 
> Lately I've been playing around with measurement gear and methods and the one thing I find is that when I set the impulse response to be matched the exact same on all drivers (let's assume allowing a subwoofer to play to 1khz has merit here), the center image is skewed toward the driver's side more than in the middle of acoustic center.
> So, I played with just moving the mic to the left to see if this might help offset the results and it does... but the shift of the mic has to be an inch or two. Certainly a small shift doesn't have an effect.
> 
> I say all that to say this...
> Have you guys explored why aligning impulse peaks in a car might result in this so many times? Even when I'm not using the ms-8 and using various measurement gear/software, the result seems to be the same for me in different vehicles.
> I'm just wondering if there's a common element here. I know aligning the impulse response in time isn't the only consideration for this; there's level matching to be done, but still... it seems that even a simple attenuation of the side doesn't resolve the problem wholly.
> 
> Just curious...
> 
> - Erin


Not Andy buuuut. I'm not seeing the same left bias with TA of the impulse. At least not to the extent of the bias I had with the MS8 (excluding leaning heavily left while the TA is performed). Given that the MS8 is still in my signal chain and I am leaving the processing on (further processing via the Behringers) it is very easy to do a before and after comparison. The difference in image placement with the Behringers on is pronounced and does move the image to the correct location with the impulses TAd.


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## ErinH

SSSnake said:


> Not Andy buuuut. I'm not seeing the same left bias with TA of the impulse. At least not to the extent of the bias I had with the MS8 (excluding leaning heavily left while the TA is performed). Given that the MS8 is still in my signal chain and I am leaving the processing on (further processing via the Behringers) it is very easy to do a before and after comparison. The difference in image placement with the Behringers on is pronounced and does move the image to the correct location with the impulses TAd.


I don't mean to imply its as severe. It certainly isn't in front of me. Just that it still favors the left a bit more than the center. I know all the parts make the whole but it seems to be pretty much dependable. 




Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## thx138

Well I pulled the trigger and have one the way to me. Now to find time to get it installed.


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## SSSnake

> I don't mean to imply its as severe. It certainly isn't in front of me. Just that it still favors the left a bit more than the center. I know all the parts make the whole but it seems to be pretty much dependable.


PM Sent

PM sent


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## toolsong

99% of the time my MS-8 is set to the Driver's position.

I've got the center image where I prefer it by 'fine tuning' how far I turn my head to the left and right during the appropriate sweeps.

That point to the right is where the mirror joins the body of the car and to the left is directly at the tweeter in the sail panel.

Note I'm in a RHD car


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## 14642

Hey Erin,
The near side bias depends a bit on what you (or a peak picking algorithm) defines as the initial impulse. That can be tricky for mids and midbass depending on how much high frequency is in the signal ,the proximity of reflecting surfaces and the amount of high frequency that's reflected. In addition, a doubling of distance is worth 6dB of attenuation, so if the near side is 18" away and the far side is 36" away, the near side should be attenuated by 6dB. That can seem like too much if you're setting it manually, as it's 1/4 power. For speakers mounted in the a-pillars or in the dashboard, picking the initial impulse is more difficult and the reflections cause the apparent source of the sound to be much larger. It's much more important to align midrange and midbass frequencies than it is those that come from the tweeter.

If you want to experiment with this in a simple way, download "Console" or "AudioMulch" and make some measurements and implement some delays on your pC using a pair of cheap PC speakers placed at various distances. So long as the peak is obvious (and it will be with this setup), aligning impulses will place the center in the center. 

This is really the benefit of a center channel, especially for two listeners. Instead of the center image placement being the result of a perfect acoustic sum, it's sent to a speaker located in the center.


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## richiec77

Andy, what would be the best way to configure the rear fill for Logic 7 use IF you have 2 sets of rear speakers. aka CTS-V BOSE has 4 speakers for rear fill. 1 set is in each rear door (5 1/4") and 3 1/2" in the rear deck. 

I'm looking at this 3 ways
1.) Use doors only as SIDE
2.) Deck based 3 1/2" as REAR
3.) Put a cross-over on the pair and set both the 5 1/4" and 3 1/2" up as REAR/SIDE.


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## 14642

If you have 7 channels to devote to front, center side and rear, then the deck is rear and the rear doors are sides. If you need to bi-amp the front (I suggest doing this), then connect the sides and rears in parallel and choose "side" in MS-8's menu.


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## richiec77

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If you have 7 channels to devote to front, center side and rear, then the deck is rear and the rear doors are sides. If you need to bi-amp the front (I suggest doing this), then connect the sides and rears in parallel and choose "side" in MS-8's menu.


Perfect! Thanks!


----------



## TinEar

I finished reading all 325 pages last night, almost felt like a graduation. Installed the MS-8 several days ago in my 2006 Corvette with Kenwood H/U, audison 5.1, etc. Sounded like crap until I did the Kaingoss69 work around and Craig clarification and wow, I cannot believe how great it sounds. Terrific bass, mid-bass, stage, everything. I could not have done it without this forum. Andy is a saint and Kaingoss69 is also a genius. Many thanks to you folks.


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## kaigoss69

TinEar said:


> I finished reading all 325 pages last night, almost felt like a graduation. Installed the MS-8 several days ago in my 2006 Corvette with Kenwood H/U, audison 5.1, etc. Sounded like crap until I did the Kaingoss69 work around and Craig clarification and wow, I cannot believe how great it sounds. Terrific bass, mid-bass, stage, everything. I could not have done it without this forum. Andy is a saint and Kaingoss69 is also a genius. Many thanks to you folks.


Glad it worked out for you. The Corvette, like the BMW, also seems to suffer from the disappearing midbass problem. My first workaround worked great, but I now have even better results after calibrating with the sub in the back seat. Based on my experience I think there are three very important factors that can greatly affect the outcome of the calibration in the bass region:

1. Level. Level between mid-bass, mids and highs should be set with an SPL meter. This is best done with the "secret" test menu (pressing left button for a few secs, then right, then left, until it appears). I got mine to within 3 dB measuring at the head position. Sub level however is different. Here you don't level-match to the other speakers, you set the gain so low that the sweeps is barely audible. You should definitely not feel it, just barely hear it. Unfortunately, this is a gray area and involves some trial and error. But once you have it "just right" the results are sooooo rewarding!

2. Response. The response curve of both the midbass drivers and the subwoofer sweeps affect the internal MS-8 level setting. The peakier the response(s), the more trouble the processor seems to have with setting the levels correctly between the two. I can't say I fully understand the exact relationships at play here, but it seems that the combination of large midbass drivers and a small sealed (peaky) subwoofer enclosure is what is causing the issue of lacking midbass in most of the cases. So the original "kaigoss" mod "corrects" the peakiness of the sub by completely taking it out of the equation and using the midbass drivers to produce the bass and sub-bass frequencies in a much more linear fashion (since most are installed IB). The other method I touched on above involves moving the sub to the back seat for calibration. I cannot say definitely why this works, but the idea behind it was to move the sub into this location in order to make it more "audible" by removing the sound barrier created by the rear seat and the trunk wall. At the same time, I believe placing it in the rear seat also alters the cabin gain curve (not sure though if in a positive way or not...) and it also removes the effect of corner-loading, which basically amplifies the sub's response when mounted in the corner of the trunk. In the back seat the sub sounds less peaky, less boomy, less loud, and a bit more natural. In a way I guess, it sounds more like a midbass, which is what the MS-8 calibration algorithm seems to like better.

3. Crossover Frequency & Slope. This is what took me the longest to get right, believe it or not. Despite Andy's recommendations, I thought I knew better. After all, I was using 10" midbass woofers, more than capable of playing to 50Hz without breaking a sweat. So I thought I needed to "maximize" their ability to play low, keeping the bass notes up front, while using a 24dB/oct slope to prevent overexcursion. This approach actually worked quite well with the "kaigoss" mod, but on some notes I was still hearing the sub's true location. So once I decided to go back to a dedicated sub channel (and calibrating with the sub in the back seat), I decided to give Andy's recommendation a try. So I set it up for 80Hz, however with a slope of 12dB/oct (I'm using 24sB everywhere esle). My expectation was that the midbass would be coming from the trunk, and that the underseat 10's would barely be doing any work. Amazingly, I couldn't have been more wrong! This is the absolute best the car ever sounded. The midbass notes from under the seat are tight and up-front, and are complimented perfectly and seamlessly by the trunk sub. There is virtually no hint whatsoever, that I have a trunk sub at all. It is quite amazing, really!

Again these are my experiences and your particular situation may be different. However, please don't be afraid to experiement, and most importantly, listen to Andy!


----------



## taibanl

I take it you dont have fold down seats?

First hd has arrived!


----------



## toolsong

A general update from me for this thread...it's also good to share how well the MS-8 can work its magic 

On the weekend I finally got my Audison 5.1k installed, now I'm only using 2 amplified channels from the MS-8 for rear fill. Before it powered everything surprisingly well.

I set the tweeter, mid and sub gains to approx 2.5 V. The extra power I had available meant I could bring the sub/mid xover point back down to 80 Hz. Off the internal amps I'd been using 100 Hz to preserve SQ when playing loudly.

Ran calibration at -40 dB, which was significantly quieter than -20 off the internal amps, and the first tune for both front seats was perfect.

It sounds a little different overall, the class A tweeter channels are definitely sweeter.

To tune the sound to my taste, rather than use EQ I decreased the amplifier gain on the tweeter channels a little and increased the gain of the sub channel quite a lot. Plus a little 2 dB EQ bump centered at 50 Hz. I no longer EQ the treble at all.

The increase in power and dynamics from the amp means it can play rock music with Marshall like authority


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## 14642

^^Cool.


----------



## thehatedguy

You know, I lowered my gains the last time I calibrated, and I swear it got louder after everything was said and done.


----------



## richiec77

thehatedguy said:


> You know, I lowered my gains the last time I calibrated, and I swear it got louder after everything was said and done.


As in whole system louder? Or just the bottom end louder? 

I've only gone thru tuning 5x but I think I'm running in place right now with my set-up and should just wait for the amps to come in so I can do a pure level matching and go from there. What I have noticed is the subs level is very tricky and plays a critical role in both it's response and the Midbass response.


----------



## thehatedguy

Whole thing got louder.

You can barely hear the sub when the sweep goes through it when I calibrate.


----------



## fuji6

Got an spl meter? I'm curious to what at what level your (or anybody else who consistently gets good results with strong dynamics) speakers are playing at during calibration. Also what you have the ms8 volume set to (I'm assuming you're not using internal amps on it). I could have sworn the ideal levels were asked about long ago, but I've never been able to find a concrete answer in this thread. If I missed it I apologize.


----------



## kaigoss69

fuji6 said:


> Got an spl meter? I'm curious to what at what level your (or anybody else who consistently gets good results with strong dynamics) speakers are playing at during calibration. Also what you have the ms8 volume set to (I'm assuming you're not using internal amps on it). I could have sworn the ideal levels were asked about long ago, but I've never been able to find a concrete answer in this thread. If I missed it I apologize.


You're not going to find a concrete answer, because the equipment hooked up to the MS-8 is different in just about every case. So the MS-8 sends out a constant voltage sweep, but then YOUR amplifier and YOUR speakers will play it at a different volume then the next guy's, and so on. Having said that, the range of what has worked best with external amps is around -30 to -45 dB.


----------



## gasongasoff

fuji6 said:


> Got an spl meter? I'm curious to what at what level your (or anybody else who consistently gets good results with strong dynamics) speakers are playing at during calibration.


+1 on this. I too wonder what a good SPL range is for the calibration sweeps.


----------



## gasongasoff

Does anyone here run Focal Utopia Be No7 3-ways with the MS-8 on active (without the crossblock)? If so, would you mind sharing what your crossover frequency and slope settings were?


----------



## richiec77

I'll see about taking measurements during the sweeps from the Passenger seat to see what the range is.


----------



## dlheman

The following is my method of level matching when using different amplifiers and speakers. 


Now remember, the result is only as good as the physical install and correct crossover points. Since the point of this guide is about level matching, let's assume both physical install and crossover settings are set up correctly. 

*Key thing to remember is; Follow the front speakers level.*

1. Defeat processing and Logic 7 _(you may have to go through the crossover and autotune first before you get to this point)_, use your favorite cd then set the gain for the front speakers. If you are on passive, just increase the gain as much as possible before clipping point (distorted sound). Aim for 2.5v on the gain level, this should be explained on your amplifier's manual. 

If you are running active for front, dial the gain on the midbass first and again go as much as possible before clipping. Then adjust the gain for the midrange and/or tweeter until it sounded in tune with the midbass. This area can be subjective, but I aim for crisp and clear sound. Your bass should not be that strong, because is only midbass afterall. 

2. Set your center, side and rear gain level to half, and set your subwoofer gain level to quarter. 

3. Do autotune and at this point you're just using it to match the rest of the speakers against the front speakers by its sweeping noise. You got many opportunities to make adjustment during autotune, since you can do 4 seats calibrations and each calibration allows you to make 4 adjustment. Do use -40db calibration volume. Since your front speakers' gain is set as high as possible at 2.5v, you should not have a problem hearing the sweep at -40db.

*(IF at this point your subwoofer is overpowering even at its minimum amplifier gain level, stop and inspect your midbass and subwoofer install.)*

Now pay attention to your sweep noise; does the center, side and rear matches the front? Can you feel the subwoofer sweep noise? If the center, side and rear do not match the front sweeping noise, make adjustment to their gain level as necessary. Use dB meter or just use your ears, and their sweep noise don't need to be 100 percent the same the front, but should be very close.

If you can feel the subwoofer sweep noise, reduce the gain to a point which you are able to hear it but not feel it at all. If you cannot feel it, you may choose to increase the subwoofer gain, but not too much to a point you can feel the sweep.

At this point, your gain level should be all good. 

5. Now restart and complete the autotune. Make sure you set our head unit volume to minimum before you do the autotune, as MS8 instructed.


----------



## gasongasoff

dlheman said:


> 3. . Do use -40db calibration volume. Since your front speakers' gain is set as high as possible at 2.5v, you should not have a problem hearing the sweep at -40db.


Do you have an idea what the SPL is when you set the MS-8 -40? Because different amps have different overall gains and different speakers have different dB/W sensitivities... so it would be hard to reproduce what you're describing...


----------



## dlheman

I wont worry much about what the db level is. At -40db the ms8 mic wont clip anyway. I know the db will different to diff amps and speakers, but after many ms8 tune on diff cars and diff configurations, when using external amp i always ended up using -40db. It is never too loud or too quiet at that level.

As long as ms8 mic dont clip due to too loud calibration sweep, and that the sub level is low, ms8 should work.


----------



## shapiro

I"M GOING CRAZY TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET THE BASS RIGHT ON THIS THING. I'VE BEEN READING THROUGH ALL THE PAGES AND HAVEN"T FOUND A SOLUTION YET. I HAVE 2 PROBLEMS, I'VE BEEN CHANGING A BUNCH ON CALIBRATIONS AND CANT FIGURE OUT HOW TO FIX BOTH PROBLEMS. SOMETIMES ONE WILL BE FIXED AND NOT THE OTHER BUT NEVER BOTH:

#1: THERE IS A SLIGHT DELAY ON THE SUB. IT'S NOT NOTICEABLE ON ALL MUSIC, BUT ON SONGS WITH A MORE STEADY BEAT ITS DRIVING ME CRAZY.

#2: THE BASS IS LOOSE AND SOUNDS TERRIBLE. I CANT GET GOOD TIGHT CRISP BASS ALONG WITH NO DELAY IN THE SUB.

ANY SOLUTIONS? I FOUND A THREAD ABOUT THE BASS DELAY BUT NO GOOD SOLUTIONS WERE GIVEN ON IT. FOR INFO I AM RUNNING 2 WAY UP FRONT WITH XO [email protected], STOCK SIDES, SUB XO [email protected]


----------



## Shaheenk

turn ur sub gain up more then your splits, this will prevent the bass being too boomy and heavy, the EQ will think you have too much bass and tone it down .

Then once you done calibration listen and see if this solves the problem. If it does but you find you dont have enough bass , simply adjust your gain to where you like it.

If you finding it too loose what box and woofer do you have. Remember the MS8 will not cure a bad install


----------



## subwoofery

shapiro said:


> I"M GOING CRAZY TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET THE BASS RIGHT ON THIS THING. I'VE BEEN READING THROUGH ALL THE PAGES AND HAVEN"T FOUND A SOLUTION YET. I HAVE 2 PROBLEMS, I'VE BEEN CHANGING A BUNCH ON CALIBRATIONS AND CANT FIGURE OUT HOW TO FIX BOTH PROBLEMS. SOMETIMES ONE WILL BE FIXED AND NOT THE OTHER BUT NEVER BOTH:
> 
> #1: THERE IS A SLIGHT DELAY ON THE SUB. IT'S NOT NOTICEABLE ON ALL MUSIC, BUT ON SONGS WITH A MORE STEADY BEAT ITS DRIVING ME CRAZY.
> 
> #2: THE BASS IS LOOSE AND SOUNDS TERRIBLE. I CANT GET GOOD TIGHT CRISP BASS ALONG WITH NO DELAY IN THE SUB.
> 
> ANY SOLUTIONS? I FOUND A THREAD ABOUT THE BASS DELAY BUT NO GOOD SOLUTIONS WERE GIVEN ON IT. FOR INFO I AM RUNNING 2 WAY UP FRONT WITH XO [email protected], STOCK SIDES, SUB XO [email protected]


Stupid question but what sub and what enclosure size? 

Kelvin


----------



## 14642

Shapiro,
Are you using the crossover on the sub amplifier?


----------



## shapiro

I am not using the crossover on my amp, I have both crossovers to mids and sub turned off. My sub is a Boston Acoustics G110-44 in a sealed .65 ft^3 box (I know it's small but usually sounds great except for the low low notes, I'm thinking of installing two IB 12's soon to hit the lows). 

I've tried turning the gain higher and lower for calibration. It seems like it actually makes it more loose when I turn the gain higher for calibration, but then when I lower it there is more of a delay in the bass for some reason (it sounds like there is an echo with the bass or something). 

I actually think the sound stage for the bass has gotten worse since the MS-8 which I think is due to the delay in the bass. I think if I could get a good solution for the delay I could play with the gain on tune calibration and fix the bass quality (I've had it a few times, just can't get the delay fixed so have to try again).


----------



## subwoofery

shapiro said:


> I am not using the crossover on my amp, I have both crossovers to mids and sub turned off. My sub is a Boston Acoustics G110-44 in a sealed .65 ft^3 box (I know it's small but usually sounds great except for the low low notes, I'm thinking of installing two IB 12's soon to hit the lows).
> 
> I've tried turning the gain higher and lower for calibration. It seems like it actually makes it more loose when I turn the gain higher for calibration, but then when I lower it there is more of a delay in the bass for some reason (it sounds like there is an echo with the bass or something).
> 
> I actually think the sound stage for the bass has gotten worse since the MS-8 which I think is due to the delay in the bass. I think if I could get a good solution for the delay I could play with the gain on tune calibration and fix the bass quality (I've had it a few times, just can't get the delay fixed so have to try again).


Asking coz the MS-8 bases its level for the sub off the 50Hz-80Hz range. Having a peak in that range due to cabin gain can make the MS-8 go funky... Most cars peak in the 40Hz-60Hz range and if the box is way to small, you might run out of EQ to make cuts... 

Did you try to reverse the polarity of your subwoofer and recalibrate? Might have it wired in reverse polarity... 

Kelvin


----------



## BuickGN

I have my subs where they're barely audible or completely off during calibration. I was getting a huge 50hz peak and no 20-32hz. With the subs low/off, it's pretty close to flat after calibration. With the new mics a lot of that has gone away even with the subs on during calibration. It's still there but not as bad now. The lowpass slope also makes a big difference in the way my subs sound if I do calibration at a normal volume.


----------



## shapiro

subwoofery said:


> Asking coz the MS-8 bases its level for the sub off the 50Hz-80Hz range. Having a peak in that range due to cabin gain can make the MS-8 go funky... Most cars peak in the 40Hz-60Hz range and if the box is way to small, you might run out of EQ to make cuts...
> 
> Did you try to reverse the polarity of your subwoofer and recalibrate? Might have it wired in reverse polarity...
> 
> Kelvin


Actually I haven't... not sure why I missed that idea. I'll try that and see how it goes. Maybe I just need to go IB so I have to worry about running out of EQ. Honestly I don't really know what I'm doing when setting the EQ, I just copy the ideal curve I found for the MS-8 and then adjust from there to what sounds good, are there any good methods setting the EQ?


----------



## shapiro

BuickGN said:


> I have my subs where they're barely audible or completely off during calibration. I was getting a huge 50hz peak and no 20-32hz. With the subs low/off, it's pretty close to flat after calibration. With the new mics a lot of that has gone away even with the subs on during calibration. It's still there but not as bad now. The lowpass slope also makes a big difference in the way my subs sound if I do calibration at a normal volume.


I've found the same for the lowpass slopes, I tried all sorts of different points but I can't get anything to sound better than setting it at 80 hz, 24 db slope. I've tried turning the subs pretty much off during calibration, it makes the bass sound great but seems to make the delay slightly worse... if I can just fix the bass delay I think I could get it right on.


----------



## BuickGN

shapiro said:


> I've found the same for the lowpass slopes, I tried all sorts of different points but I can't get anything to sound better than setting it at 80 hz, 24 db slope. I've tried turning the subs pretty much off during calibration, it makes the bass sound great but seems to make the delay slightly worse... if I can just fix the bass delay I think I could get it right on.


Same here. 80hz/24db. I had success with the delay moving slightly forward during the first sweep and then putting the seat back in it's normal position for the rest of the sweeps.


----------



## shapiro

OKAY I THINK I FIXED THE PROBLEM... I TRIED CALIBRATING IT WITH THE POLARITY REVERSED ON THE SUBS AND IT JUST SOUNDED BAD. I STARTED PLAYING AROUND WITH DIFFERENT THINGS AND FOR SOME REASON WHEN I CALIBRATE WITH THE SUBS WIRED THE REGULAR WAY AND THEN REVERSE POLARITY WHEN DONE, IT FIXED THE DELAY. THE BASS NOW SOUNDS LIKE ITS COMING FROM THE FRONT, THERE IS NO DELAY, AND ITS NICE AND CRISP!


----------



## kaigoss69

shapiro said:


> OKAY I THINK I FIXED THE PROBLEM... I TRIED CALIBRATING IT WITH THE POLARITY REVERSED ON THE SUBS AND IT JUST SOUNDED BAD. I STARTED PLAYING AROUND WITH DIFFERENT THINGS AND FOR SOME REASON WHEN I CALIBRATE WITH THE SUBS WIRED THE REGULAR WAY AND THEN REVERSE POLARITY WHEN DONE, IT FIXED THE DELAY. THE BASS NOW SOUNDS LIKE ITS COMING FROM THE FRONT, THERE IS NO DELAY, AND ITS NICE AND CRISP!


GREAT, NOW FIX YOUR KEYBOARD TOO!


----------



## BuickGN

That's awesome. I might go and try it right now just for the heck of it.


----------



## shapiro

kaigoss69 said:


> GREAT, NOW FIX YOUR KEYBOARD TOO!


HA HA, THAT'S NEXT.


----------



## yuri

gasongasoff said:


> Does anyone here run Focal Utopia Be No7 3-ways with the MS-8 on active (without the crossblock)? If so, would you mind sharing what your crossover frequency and slope settings were?


i based my setting on the 3w2 playing from 250 hz - 3k .......
ie sub up to 80hz(12db) bass up to 250hz(18db)mid up to 3k (18 db) ...

that is the best setting i found in my car but it may well differ to suit you car /install etc etc ...


----------



## BuickGN

shapiro said:


> OKAY I THINK I FIXED THE PROBLEM... I TRIED CALIBRATING IT WITH THE POLARITY REVERSED ON THE SUBS AND IT JUST SOUNDED BAD. I STARTED PLAYING AROUND WITH DIFFERENT THINGS AND FOR SOME REASON WHEN I CALIBRATE WITH THE SUBS WIRED THE REGULAR WAY AND THEN REVERSE POLARITY WHEN DONE, IT FIXED THE DELAY. THE BASS NOW SOUNDS LIKE ITS COMING FROM THE FRONT, THERE IS NO DELAY, AND ITS NICE AND CRISP!


I JUST TRIED THIS AND I HAVE TO SAY THIS IS THE SINGLE MOST HELPFUL AND EFFECTIVE "TRICK" I'VE EVER USED WITH THE MS8. MINE WAS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT, I CALIBRATED WITH THE SUBS' POLARITY REVERSED AND THEN SWITCHED IT BACK TO NORMAL FOR LISTENING. SUB TO MIDBASS TRANSITION IS COMPLETELY SEAMLESS. EVEN THOUGH I KNOW IT'S AN ILLUSION, SUBBASS WAS SO INTEGRATED I TURNED THE VOLUME DOWN AND CHECKED EXCURSION OF THE MIDBASSES JUST TO EASE MY MIND.

SUBBASS IS SO UP FRONT THAT I MIGHT TRY AN EVEN HIGHER LOWPASS ON THE SUBS UNTIL IT'S PULLED REARWARD. 

YES, THIS IS DESERVING OF ALL CAPS LOL. ANYONE THAT HAS HAD ISSUES WITH SUB TO MIDBASS INTEGRATION OR UPFRONT SUBBASS SHOULD DO THIS.


----------



## thehatedguy

I did that too, but I couldn't remember which way I had the sub wired at the amp when I swapped subs. Bam right up in front...I dunno which way is "right" at the amp, but it was never right sounding after I swapped the sub, good, but in back. It's in front now...again.

If anyone is wondering, I went from a DVC sub wired in stereo at the amp to a SVC and I bridged the channels. I never checked which was the proper pair polarity of wires at the amp...was too excited to get the new sub in and playing to run new speaker wire from the amp.


----------



## thehatedguy

How high is your XO point now? I've only dared to go to 100 so far and it's better there than it was at 50 and 70.

I'm glad you got or are getting the bugs nailed down...cause I am a big fan boy and have had great luck with the processor, and it baffles me why people are having problems with it.




BuickGN said:


> I JUST TRIED THIS AND I HAVE TO SAY THIS IS THE SINGLE MOST HELPFUL AND EFFECTIVE "TRICK" I'VE EVER USED WITH THE MS8. MINE WAS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT, I CALIBRATED WITH THE SUBS' POLARITY REVERSED AND THEN SWITCHED IT BACK TO NORMAL FOR LISTENING. SUB TO MIDBASS TRANSITION IS COMPLETELY SEAMLESS. EVEN THOUGH I KNOW IT'S AN ILLUSION, SUBBASS WAS SO INTEGRATED I TURNED THE VOLUME DOWN AND CHECKED EXCURSION OF THE MIDBASSES JUST TO EASE MY MIND.
> 
> SUBBASS IS SO UP FRONT THAT I MIGHT TRY AN EVEN HIGHER LOWPASS ON THE SUBS UNTIL IT'S PULLED REARWARD.
> 
> YES, THIS IS DESERVING OF ALL CAPS LOL. ANYONE THAT HAS HAD ISSUES WITH SUB TO MIDBASS INTEGRATION OR UPFRONT SUBBASS SHOULD DO THIS.


----------



## BuickGN

thehatedguy said:


> How high is your XO point now? I've only dared to go to 100 so far and it's better there than it was at 50 and 70.
> 
> I'm glad you got or are getting the bugs nailed down...cause I am a big fan boy and have had great luck with the processor, and it baffles me why people are having problems with it.


Right now 80/24db. When I first installed the MS8 I had a 12W6 IB and Dyn Esotar 342 set and it sounded great with upfront bass up to 100hz which was the highest I tried it. 

Next was a Tempest X which had no output above 50hz but that could have been the sub. Bass was still mostly up front but not as good as the W6. 

Then I went with the AE subs and still not as good as the W6 in upfront bass and they did not integrate as well with the midbass but I could go as high as 120hz and still have most of the bass up front. In the back of my mind I've always though about going to a trio of 12W6 or 13W7s. 

Next was the Esotar 650 and 430. While overall a step up, especially in midbass, something has never sounded "right" except for that one in a million tune where it was just amazing. Flipping the passenger side tweeter polarity cured this and the front stage is great but I've had this sub to midbass issue for a long time now. One board member who has heard it brought this up without me saying anything so I know it wasn't just in my head. 

Today is the day it all came together. I get consistent tunes each and every time on the front stage. I not longer end up with a super hot passenger midrange 75% of the time. My subs are locked on the windshield and all around me. You wouldn't think the car had subs besides the fact it hits low notes that are impossible for a 6.5" with authority. 

Sorry for the whole history but I don't think it would be right to not include how I got here. It seems like every issue I've had was related to polarity. I've checked polarity on everything but the tweeters with a battery and the tweeters were visually checked. They were also fine as part of the 342 setup but when I installed the 650 and 430 I had to flip polarity.

I don't fully understand it and it's not perfect, it needs tuning but it's close and I feel I can finally get it to where I want to be with just tuning.


----------



## m0sdef

I'm gonna have to try reversing the subs polarity now to see if it'll help ring the bass back up front.


----------



## BuickGN

m0sdef said:


> I'm gonna have to try reversing the subs polarity now to see if it'll help ring the bass back up front.


I would try that but for what it's worth, what worked for me was calibrating them with polarity reversed and the swapping back to normal.


----------



## m0sdef

BuickGN said:


> Right now 80/24db. When I first installed the MS8 I had a 12W6 IB and Dyn Esotar 342 set and it sounded great with upfront bass up to 100hz which was the highest I tried it.
> 
> Next was a Tempest X which had no output above 50hz but that could have been the sub. Bass was still mostly up front but not as good as the W6.
> 
> Then I went with the AE subs and still not as good as the W6 in upfront bass and they did not integrate as well with the midbass but I could go as high as 120hz and still have most of the bass up front. In the back of my mind I've always though about going to a trio of 12W6 or 13W7s.
> 
> Next was the Esotar 650 and 430. While overall a step up, especially in midbass, something has never sounded "right" except for that one in a million tune where it was just amazing. Flipping the passenger side tweeter polarity cured this and the front stage is great but I've had this sub to midbass issue for a long time now. One board member who has heard it brought this up without me saying anything so I know it wasn't just in my head.
> 
> Today is the day it all came together. I get consistent tunes each and every time on the front stage. I not longer end up with a super hot passenger midrange 75% of the time. My subs are locked on the windshield and all around me. You wouldn't think the car had subs besides the fact it hits low notes that are impossible for a 6.5" with authority.
> 
> Sorry for the whole history but I don't think it would be right to not include how I got here. It seems like every issue I've had was related to polarity. I've checked polarity on everything but the tweeters with a battery and the tweeters were visually checked. They were also fine as part of the 342 setup but when I installed the 650 and 430 I had to flip polarity.
> 
> I don't fully understand it and it's not perfect, it needs tuning but it's close and I feel I can finally get it to where I want to be with just tuning.


I'm glad to hear that your experience with the ms8 is better now. I'm assuming you won't be burning it or running it over anymore? LOL


----------



## BuickGN

m0sdef said:


> I'm glad to hear that your experience with the ms8 is better now. I'm assuming you won't be burning it or running it over anymore? LOL


Not anytime soon but I won't say never. It's an emotional roller coaster lol. Are you going to be at the next meet?


----------



## 14642

It appears that I won't be traveling in early June, so I'm going to try to come to the meet so you guys can throw tomatoes at me.


----------



## BuickGN

That will be awesome to meet you Andy. Maybe you can take a listen and give your opinion. I'll try not to do any new calibrations until then so you can hear exactly what I've described but I can't make any promises. I'm going out on a limb here but I think my sub bass integration is at least as good as any I've ever heard.


----------



## m0sdef

Which meet? It would be awesome to meet Andy and have some of his input.


----------



## shapiro

BuickGN said:


> I JUST TRIED THIS AND I HAVE TO SAY THIS IS THE SINGLE MOST HELPFUL AND EFFECTIVE "TRICK" I'VE EVER USED WITH THE MS8. MINE WAS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT, I CALIBRATED WITH THE SUBS' POLARITY REVERSED AND THEN SWITCHED IT BACK TO NORMAL FOR LISTENING. SUB TO MIDBASS TRANSITION IS COMPLETELY SEAMLESS. EVEN THOUGH I KNOW IT'S AN ILLUSION, SUBBASS WAS SO INTEGRATED I TURNED THE VOLUME DOWN AND CHECKED EXCURSION OF THE MIDBASSES JUST TO EASE MY MIND.
> 
> SUBBASS IS SO UP FRONT THAT I MIGHT TRY AN EVEN HIGHER LOWPASS ON THE SUBS UNTIL IT'S PULLED REARWARD.
> 
> YES, THIS IS DESERVING OF ALL CAPS LOL. ANYONE THAT HAS HAD ISSUES WITH SUB TO MIDBASS INTEGRATION OR UPFRONT SUBBASS SHOULD DO THIS.


GOOD TO HEAR IT WORKED FOR SOMEONE ELSE AS WELL. I'M A TOTAL BEGINNER WITH ALL THIS SO PUTTING THE MS-8 IN WAS A HUGE STEP UP FOR ME, I JUST NEVER COULD GET IT SET QUITE RIGHT. IVE BEEN LISTENING TO IT ALL DAY AFTER THAT CALIBRATION, AND IM BLOWN AWAY BY HOW GOOD IT ALL SOUNDS NOW. IT'S OFFICIALLY WORTH EVERY PENNY I PAID FOR IT.


----------



## newnick

BuickGN said:


> Right now 80/24db. When I first installed the MS8 I had a 12W6 IB and Dyn Esotar 342 set and it sounded great with upfront bass up to 100hz which was the highest I tried it.
> 
> Next was a Tempest X which had no output above 50hz but that could have been the sub. Bass was still mostly up front but not as good as the W6.
> 
> Then I went with the AE subs and still not as good as the W6 in upfront bass and they did not integrate as well with the midbass but I could go as high as 120hz and still have most of the bass up front. In the back of my mind I've always though about going to a trio of 12W6 or 13W7s.
> 
> Next was the Esotar 650 and 430. While overall a step up, especially in midbass, something has never sounded "right" except for that one in a million tune where it was just amazing. Flipping the passenger side tweeter polarity cured this and the front stage is great but I've had this sub to midbass issue for a long time now. One board member who has heard it brought this up without me saying anything so I know it wasn't just in my head.
> 
> Today is the day it all came together. I get consistent tunes each and every time on the front stage. I not longer end up with a super hot passenger midrange 75% of the time. My subs are locked on the windshield and all around me. You wouldn't think the car had subs besides the fact it hits low notes that are impossible for a 6.5" with authority.
> 
> Sorry for the whole history but I don't think it would be right to not include how I got here. It seems like every issue I've had was related to polarity. I've checked polarity on everything but the tweeters with a battery and the tweeters were visually checked. They were also fine as part of the 342 setup but when I installed the 650 and 430 I had to flip polarity.
> 
> I don't fully understand it and it's not perfect, it needs tuning but it's close and I feel I can finally get it to where I want to be with just tuning.


Just need clarification, switching polarity on the right side tweeter brought the sound more to center? My system is hot on the right side, but I've just adjusted the balance on the ms8 up to this point.


----------



## pionkej

shapiro said:


> GOOD TO HEAR IT WORKED FOR SOMEONE ELSE AS WELL. I'M A TOTAL BEGINNER WITH ALL THIS SO PUTTING THE MS-8 IN WAS A HUGE STEP UP FOR ME, I JUST NEVER COULD GET IT SET QUITE RIGHT. IVE BEEN LISTENING TO IT ALL DAY AFTER THAT CALIBRATION, AND IM BLOWN AWAY BY HOW GOOD IT ALL SOUNDS NOW. IT'S OFFICIALLY WORTH EVERY PENNY I PAID FOR IT.


Awesome. Now please stop typing in all caps!


----------



## shapiro

pionkej said:


> Awesome. Now please stop typing in all caps!


Sorry, my keyboard is dyin on me (on my one year old compuer). If I don type in caps I have no 'T' or 'G'. Jus easier in all caps.


----------



## Tendean17

I change the polarity from normal to reverse to find which is louder from listening position and recalibrate the ms-8. I think Andy suggest that.

Without recalibrate there will be overlap between sub and midbass. It will break the shelving filter without recalibrate that .. I use the system level and tone control to add some more midbass, but i'll try that and hear what happened. Thanks.


----------



## taibanl

2.8v is that AC or DC?


----------



## 14642

AC and RMS


----------



## mitchyz250f

I lost the screw for the ground wire on the MS8 and can't seem to figure out what the screw size is.
Does anyone know what size it is? Is it metric?

Edit for answer: The power screws ARE metric.


----------



## taibanl

So, I am prepping for my stage II upgrade and was curious about the BMW HiFi voltage output (it is supposedly flat)(where it would hit the 2.8v input of MS-8), so I decided to check it with a voltmeter (AC volts). The results have me concerned...

Input
CD - burned from .wav files at 0dB.

OEM HU, coded to HiFi Vol 55/55--While I was at it, I found that 52/55 gives the closest to 2.8v

Format
[Freq in Hz:]vAC @ 55/55 & vAC @52/55​
20hz3.1v & 1.7v​50hz4.8v & 2.7v​100hz4.8v & 2.7v​200hz4.8v & 2.7v​262hz (middle C)4.8v & 2.7v​440hz4.8v & 2.7v​1khz4.4v & 2.4v​2khz4.0v & 2.1v​4khz3.3v & 1.6v​10khz1.9v & 0.8v​


This concerns me as I expected voltage output at 0dB, to be constant across the FR. It obviously is not (though noticeably flat between 50hz and 440hz). 

Anyone else done comparable tests? I wonder if its better to let the MS-8 de-EQ this signal?

*1) Assuming good test tracks, is this a valid test? Should the output be constant across the FR at 0dB*
*2) Assuming a valid test - should I use input setup (it has always been recommended to SKIP input setup in the BMW HiFi configuration)...and will this be enough?*


----------



## onelivinlarge

anyone can give me some first hand opinions on the ms8 im thinking about switching to it from my h510


----------



## kaigoss69

327 pages, 8161 posts, and you could not find any first-hand opinions???


----------



## onelivinlarge

kaigoss69 said:


> 327 pages, 8161 posts, and you could not find any first-hand opinions???


way to many pages to go thu.


----------



## BuickGN

onelivinlarge said:


> way to many pages to go thu.


Seriously? So you expect someone to write a summary because you won't read through the thread you're already in? Not to mention there are a thousand reviews on google and on here.


----------



## shapiro

JusT for the record, I Tried BuickGN's meThod of fixing The bass: reverse polarity of sub for calibraTion and switching back after... His way is beTTer. There is a slighTly beTTer TransiTion beTween bass and mid-bass, and I canT even Tell The sub is in The Trunk now (IT was good reversing polariTy afTer calibraTion buT aT cerTain Times The bass would be pulled To The back sTill).


----------



## BuickGN

shapiro said:


> JusT for the record, I Tried BuickGN's meThod of fixing The bass: reverse polarity of sub for calibraTion and switching back after... His way is beTTer. There is a slighTly beTTer TransiTion beTween bass and mid-bass, and I canT even Tell The sub is in The Trunk now (IT was good reversing polariTy afTer calibraTion buT aT cerTain Times The bass would be pulled To The back sTill).


The funny thing is I thought I was following your method and screwed up by reversing polarity first. Glad it works, I just wish I knew the reason why.


----------



## m0sdef

So I tried flipping the subs polarity, and I really can't get the sub to blend. It keeps on sounding like its coming from under the rear seat of my truck where the subs are. Happens regardless of how the gains are set.


----------



## BuickGN

m0sdef said:


> So I tried flipping the subs polarity, and I really can't get the sub to blend. It keeps on sounding like its coming from under the rear seat of my truck where the subs are. Happens regardless of how the gains are set.


Did you just flip them or did you flip them, calibrate, flip back to normal? Just flipping phase and calibrating did not work for me.


----------



## m0sdef

I flipped them, calibrated then flipped them back.


----------



## s4k4zulu

BuickGN said:


> Did you just flip them or did you flip them, calibrate, flip back to normal? Just flipping phase and calibrating did not work for me.


What page is ur method on.?
My bro is having midbass issues and 
I can't help him cuz I never had the problem. 
Thanks


----------



## m0sdef

Page 326


----------



## s4k4zulu

^thanks a bunch
I just hated readin backwards


----------



## Kiong34

i am running 2 way front and sub. I got very good result today.

however i found my setting on amp gain fuuny.
Tweeter gain is set at 2V
Mid bass gain is set at below 2V
Sub gain is set close to minimum.

I got the vocal right in center of windscreen and staging is good. Bass is best so far.

But i am wondering why gain on tweeter is the highest? is there something not right since tweeter seems to be most sensitive.


----------



## m0sdef

Just had a Holy $hit moment with my ms-8! I've had it for the last 1 1/2 years, and its been great to me. Last couple of months though, I haven't been really able to get the mid bass and sub transition to work for me not matter how I calibrated and it just didn't sound as good as it used to.

So I used a different set of ms-8 mic from a new unit for my brothers car. I calibrated and thats when the moment happened. Take it the mid bass and sub integration was not quite there, but the sound just enveloped me. The stage sounded like it was coming from the windshield.

I'm going to do more calibrations and adjustments and see how it sounds after the excitement phase goes away. I can say though, the use of new mic has my system sounding better. I took care of mine, but maybe keeping them in the glove box of my truck damaged them somehow.


----------



## Bluenote

^^ That's awesome news  if you don't mind - where are your speakers positioned?


----------



## m0sdef

They're in the stock speaker locations. Midbass in the doors, midrange in each corner of the dash, tweeters in the sail, center in the center of the dash, and rears in the back doors


----------



## Bluenote

Thanks! I've been reading more and more about how Andy recommends stock locations particularly for Logic 7. I'm gonna send you a PM.


----------



## 4thDoctorWhoFan

I will be upgrading the sound system in my 2011 Ford Edge Limited with the 12 speaker Sony system & Navigation with the JBL MS-8 processor.

After reading some posts here on DIYMA and the install manual for the MS-8, I am under the impression that I should tap into the output of the stock amp/processor & feed the front L&R speaker inputs into the MS8. 

My problem however is that I'm fairly certain that this Sony system uses an active feed to the front L&R speakers. Meaning there is a seperate channel for the mid & tweets on each side. How am I suppose to input this into the MS8? Should I tap into the rear speaker inputs?

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Tony


----------



## taibanl

4thDoctorWhoFan said:


> I will be upgrading the sound system in my 2011 Ford Edge Limited with the 12 speaker Sony system & Navigation with the JBL MS-8 processor.
> 
> After reading some posts here on DIYMA and the install manual for the MS-8, I am under the impression that I should tap into the output of the stock amp/processor & feed the front L&R speaker inputs into the MS8.
> 
> My problem however is that I'm fairly certain that this Sony system uses an active feed to the front L&R speakers. Meaning there is a seperate channel for the mid & tweets on each side. How am I suppose to input this into the MS8? Should I tap into the rear speaker inputs?
> 
> Any input would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> Tony


All you need is to get one L+R full range signal in up to 8 channels. Just make sure you feed ms-8 any hf signals before lf ones


----------



## shamie

taibanl said:


> All you need is to get one L+R full range signal in up to 8 channels. Just make sure you feed ms-8 any hf signals before lf ones


Don't you mean one L full range signal and one R full range signal? The way you wrote it was one summed signal.


----------



## 4thDoctorWhoFan

So I guess I'm going to have to try and find the front L & R before the amp since it's an active feed after the amp. Is this correct? or at least an option?

I could feed the rear L & R into the MS8 after the stock amp but I don't know if those signals are full range. Do I also need to input a sub signal or will the ms8 take care of that with the full range inputs?

Any other suggestions to get a left and right full range into the ms8 with my setup? (2011 ford edge limited with 12 speaker sony system & navigation)

Also, does anyone know where I could get a wiring diagram or layout for the input & output of the stock amp/processor for the 2011 ford edge w/sony 12 speaker system?


----------



## jbradle7

Use as many of the front channels as it takes to get a full-range signal... if you think the Ford amp splits the low/hi on the front, then use the 4 channels (left-low, left-hi, right-low, right-hi). Also, I'd assume the Ford amp hi-passes the front signal so you'll need a sub input as well to get the full-range signal the MS-8 needs. 

You probably need to get a wiring diagram before knowing for sure what factory amp outputs you'll need to use; try a Ford forum and see if another Edge owner can help you find this info.

Hope this helps.


----------



## 4thDoctorWhoFan

jbradle7 said:


> Use as many of the front channels as it takes to get a full-range signal... if you think the Ford amp splits the low/hi on the front, then use the 4 channels (left-low, left-hi, right-low, right-hi). Also, I'd assume the Ford amp hi-passes the front signal so you'll need a sub input as well to get the full-range signal the MS-8 needs.
> 
> You probably need to get a wiring diagram before knowing for sure what factory amp outputs you'll need to use; try a Ford forum and see if another Edge owner can help you find this info.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Yes, it does help. 

Do you think it would be okay to get the signals before it goes into the stock amp and route it into the ms8? I'm talking about the signal going from the factory HU to the factory amp/processor.


----------



## jbradle7

4thDoctorWhoFan said:


> Yes, it does help.
> 
> Do you think it would be okay to get the signals before it goes into the stock amp and route it into the ms8? I'm talking about the signal going from the factory HU to the factory amp/processor.


Not sure on your Ford, but I know on my Audi the factory amp has CAN bus info that controls the HU Vol / Mute and steering wheel controls; if you bypass the amp you loose those factory controls.


----------



## 4thDoctorWhoFan

jbradle7 said:


> Not sure on your Ford, but I know on my Audi the factory amp has CAN bus info that controls the HU Vol / Mute and steering wheel controls; if you bypass the amp you loose those factory controls.


Wow, this just keeps getting more complicated. :laugh:
Thanks for that info as I will have to look into it. Just the more reason why I must find some sort of a wiring guide/layout for my vehicle.


----------



## superskyliner

Don't worry about the previous post, yes most factory amps are on the can bus etc.. But you're only teeing into the signal in parallel, any tone or chime will still be broadcast on the audio channels and your ms-8 will play everything accordingly


----------



## 4thDoctorWhoFan

superskyliner said:


> Don't worry about the previous post, yes most factory amps are on the can bus etc.. But you're only teeing into the signal in parallel, any tone or chime will still be broadcast on the audio channels and your ms-8 will play everything accordingly


So are you saying that I should leave the input to the factory amp connected but splice into the signal and also run it to the ms8?

I was going to disconnect the front L & R signal input from the factory amp & wire it into the ms8. But you are saying leave it connected and run it into the ms8 correct?


----------



## superskyliner

Either or, I think the results will be the same, if you're not gonna run a single one of your 12 speaker system off the factory amp then you don't need the input, but if your keeping a center channel or say rear speakers or factory subwoofer going off the factory amp then just tee the signals


----------



## jbradle7

superskyliner said:


> Don't worry about the previous post, yes most factory amps are on the can bus etc.. But you're only teeing into the signal in parallel, any tone or chime will still be broadcast on the audio channels and your ms-8 will play everything accordingly


You know this from experience, have you used this method before, on what car?

I don't see how you'd still be able to use the HU controls if you're not using the factory amp output to feed the MS-8?


----------



## superskyliner

Let's keep this thread back to ms-8 specific questions and not vehicle installation questions... For the record if you tap into a head units audio output channels , you DO NOT disable the factory steering wheel buttons as these are an input to the headunit and will work regardless of what speaker set up you are running


----------



## jbradle7

superskyliner said:


> Let's keep this thread back to ms-8 specific questions and not vehicle installation questions... For the record if you tap into a head units audio output channels , you DO NOT disable the factory steering wheel buttons as these are an input to the headunit and will work regardless of what speaker set up you are running


This is MS-8 specific and I'm just trying to be helpful so don't be a di<k.

My question to you is how do you know taking the MS-8 input signal pre- factory amp with still allow the HU (not just the steering wheel controls) controls to functioning correctly; have you down this before with success, if so on what vehicle? Realizing different cars will have different factory systems and therefore will require different methods of MS-8 installation. 

Pretty simple question... you either know what you're talking about or you don't?


----------



## 14642

Just follow the instructions. That will be faster and much easier than posting a question here to which the answer has already been written in the manual. At least half of the answers here will be nonsense or a lambasting because you didn't take the time to read 375 pages of forum posts. Contrary to what must be popular belief, the manuals for many products are useful and actually explain HOW to make the product work. It's now too expensive to write a manual that also explains WHY the product works. That's what this and other forums are for. Sometimes the "WHY" is explained on companies' websites. 

Connect MS-8 to the front and sub outputs of the factory amplifier. Make sure that the REM output lead of MS-8 is used to turn on the factory amplifier, if a REM turn on input is included in the harness from the head to the amp. You're not going to have cleaner or better sound by hassling endlessly with connecting to the INPUT of the amp. In many cases, that sounds worse because the output voltage of the factory head is so low. USE THE SPEAKER OUTPUT OF THE FACTORY AMP.

Then, connect MS-8 to the speakers. or to amplifiers that are connected to the speakers. DON'T leave any of the speakers connected to the output of the factory amplifier. Once everything is connected, continue following the instructions. They explain how to set up the unit.


----------



## superskyliner

Ok Andy his amplifier output that you said he should plug into ms8 is an active set up meaning mid and tweet seperate there will be no full range input to ms8 this way


----------



## superskyliner

Delete


----------



## superskyliner

jbradle7 said:


> Pretty simple question... you either know what you're talking about or you don't?


Pretty simple if you know the input/output principle, an output...ie speaker signal does not affect an input ie steering wheel remote input


----------



## 14642

Of course there's no 2-channel full range signal. That's what MS-8 is designed to do--reconstruct one from the front and sub output of the factory amp.


----------



## yuri

i have bought a old 2000 w210 merc for my daily work car and i will be installing a "setup" soon ,, but i am intrigued to find out how the ms-8 will sound on its own powering all the speakers .. 

right now the the equipment is oe from the factory . ie 
cd headunit & cd changer in the boot(trunk) 
up front is 6.5 inch speakers in the lower doors & tweeters in the sail panels
rear doors have 5 inch in the lower doors .
on the rear deck is 6.5 inch speakers with extra unused 6.5 inch cutouts where if fitted the factory subs would be ...

option 1 , rip all factory hifi out and install from scratch ...i am tempted but i want see what i can get out of the ms-8 ! ..........

option 2 .. this is the easiest option but i would have no spare outputs to run a sub/ or center ... 2 channels to the tweets, 2 channels to the front 6.5's ,
2 channels to the rear doors (side) , 2channles to the rear deck 6.5's 

option 3 .. power the front speakers passive from the ms (6.5's & tweets) using 2 channels , 2 more channels powering the rear door (sides) and 2 channels on the rear deck speakers (rear) with the 2 remaining channels i would buy some cheap 6.5 inch subs ,fit them in the free spaces in the (IB) rear deck ,again powered from the ms-8 ..

option 4 .. use 2 channels on the front tweets , 2 channels on the front door 6.5's , combine the rear door and rear deck speakers and power the from 2 channels .and the last 2 channels powering 2 x 6.5 subs IB on the rear deck . 


i have no plans for a center and i will be installing amp/s further down the line and new speaker's .... etc etc but as i said i just want to see what the ms-8 on its own is like ...

suggestions very welcome ........


----------



## kaigoss69

Option 4 would sound best IMO. You only need 1 channel for subs, so you have one left over for center later on.


----------



## 14642

^^This


----------



## 4thDoctorWhoFan

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Just follow the instructions. That will be faster and much easier than posting a question here to which the answer has already been written in the manual.


I did read the entire manual and I understand that it stated to connect the Front L & R speaker outputs into the ms8. I got confused and the reason for me asking this question was because my setup has an active setup to the Front L & R speakers. Meaning my factory amp has a seperate channel for the mids & tweeters for the front speakers. 

This is why I was not sure if I should input the mid front L & R to the ms8 or connect the mid & tweet front L & R signals into the ms8 or of course just tap into the L & R speaker inputs into the factory amp instead of the output. 

I take your advice seriously as I am only a novice at car installations so given what I just said, you still think I should only hook the mids front L & R into the ms8 along with the sub input right???

I finally found the wiring layout for my vehicle, so i will post them for anyone else who might need it and to also verify the correct way to hook up my system.

Here is the first picture which shows the output of the factory amp/dsp to the speakers. As you can see, there is a seperate channel for the front L & R mids & tweets:










The second picture shows the output of the factory amp/dsp to the subwoofer & rear speakers. My question here is should I connect both subwoofer outputs into the ms8 input?










The third and last picture show the output of the HU to the factory amp/dsp. Since you said not to use these inputs, my question is do you think I could use the "Enable" line as the Remote on signal?










Thanks for all the help. It's really appreciated.


----------



## yuri

yuri said:


> i have bought a old 2000 w210 merc for my daily work car and i will be installing a "setup" soon ,, but i am intrigued to find out how the ms-8 will sound on its own powering all the speakers ..
> 
> right now the the equipment is oe from the factory . ie
> cd headunit & cd changer in the boot(trunk)
> up front is 6.5 inch speakers in the lower doors & tweeters in the sail panels
> rear doors have 5 inch in the lower doors .
> on the rear deck is 6.5 inch speakers with extra unused 6.5 inch cutouts where if fitted the factory subs would be ...
> 
> option 1 , rip all factory hifi out and install from scratch ...i am tempted but i want see what i can get out of the ms-8 ! ..........
> 
> option 2 .. this is the easiest option but i would have no spare outputs to run a sub/ or center ... 2 channels to the tweets, 2 channels to the front 6.5's ,
> 2 channels to the rear doors (side) , 2channles to the rear deck 6.5's
> 
> option 3 .. power the front speakers passive from the ms (6.5's & tweets) using 2 channels , 2 more channels powering the rear door (sides) and 2 channels on the rear deck speakers (rear) with the 2 remaining channels i would buy some cheap 6.5 inch subs ,fit them in the free spaces in the (IB) rear deck ,again powered from the ms-8 ..
> 
> option 4 .. use 2 channels on the front tweets , 2 channels on the front door 6.5's , combine the rear door and rear deck speakers and power the from 2 channels .and the last 2 channels powering 2 x 6.5 subs IB on the rear deck .
> 
> 
> i have no plans for a center and i will be installing amp/s further down the line and new speaker's .... etc etc but as i said i just want to see what the ms-8 on its own is like ...
> 
> suggestions very welcome ........





kaigoss69 said:


> Option 4 would sound best IMO. You only need 1 channel for subs, so you have one left over for center later on.


option 4 it is ... some luck as the rear door and rear deck speaker are already linked ,ie if i fade the head-unit to the rear head unit it plays both the rear door and deck speakers ..


----------



## taibanl

4thDoctorWhoFan said:


> I did read the entire manual and I understand that it stated to connect the Front L & R speaker outputs into the ms8. I got confused and the reason for me asking this question was because my setup has an active setup to the Front L & R speakers. Meaning my factory amp has a seperate channel for the mids & tweeters for the front speakers.
> 
> This is why I was not sure if I should input the mid front L & R to the ms8 or connect the mid & tweet front L & R signals into the ms8 or of course just tap into the L & R speaker inputs into the factory amp instead of the output.
> 
> I take your advice seriously as I am only a novice at car installations so given what I just said, you still think I should only hook the mids front L & R into the ms8 along with the sub input right???
> 
> I finally found the wiring layout for my vehicle, so i will post them for anyone else who might need it and to also verify the correct way to hook up my system.
> 
> Here is the first picture which shows the output of the factory amp/dsp to the speakers. As you can see, there is a seperate channel for the front L & R mids & tweets:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The second picture shows the output of the factory amp/dsp to the subwoofer & rear speakers. My question here is should I connect both subwoofer outputs into the ms8 input?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The third and last picture show the output of the HU to the factory amp/dsp. Since you said not to use these inputs, my question is do you think I could use the "Enable" line as the Remote on signal?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the help. It's really appreciated.


I don't know anythign about the edge, specifically about the specifications of the HU output, pre-DSP/amp. But it seems to me you have two options.

1) Use the Front L and Front R outputs into MS-8 prior to the DSP.
2) Use the necessary signal components FL.Hi+FL.Lo+SW1 &FR.Hi+FR.Lo+SW2 after the DSP/Amp, to have the MS-8 sum a stereo signal from the parts.
A) I would meter the "enable" lead, to see if it is giving you switched 12vDC power...if so, then use it as remote in.
B) For that matter you could meter (vAC) the Front HU signals prior to the amp with a 0dB sine .wav file to figure out what the signal is.


----------



## 4thDoctorWhoFan

taibanl said:


> I don't know anythign about the edge, specifically about the specifications of the HU output, pre-DSP/amp. But it seems to me you have two options.
> 
> 1) Use the Front L and Front R outputs into MS-8 prior to the DSP.
> 2) Use the necessary signal components FL.Hi+FL.Lo+SW1 &FR.Hi+FR.Lo+SW2 after the DSP/Amp, to have the MS-8 sum a stereo signal from the parts.
> A) I would meter the "enable" lead, to see if it is giving you switched 12vDC power...if so, then use it as remote in.
> B) For that matter you could meter (vAC) the Front HU signals prior to the amp with a 0dB sine .wav file to figure out what the signal is.


What about using the Rear left & right signals? They are probably full range.

I agree with your options as being the best bet I and have to figure out which would be the better choice. I don't want to lose my sync functions.

If I went with your option 2 and let the ms8 sum the signals, I would connect the FL low/FL hi together & the FR low/FR hi signals together and input that into the "front" input on the ms8 right??
Will the ms8 sum the signals automatically?


----------



## taibanl

^The MS-8 has 8 INPUTS-you can use any number of them to create a full range, stereo signal....you do not splice wires together if thats what you're thinking...andy explained this just a few posts ago


----------



## taibanl

What makes you think the rear signal is fullrange. I can almost guarantee its not, especially since you have subs

If you do option 1 you do not connect the rear head unit feed to anything.


----------



## 4thDoctorWhoFan

taibanl said:


> ^The MS-8 has 8 INPUTS-you can use any number of them to create a full range, stereo signal....you do not splice wires together if thats what you're thinking...andy explained this just a few posts ago


Okay, I understand what you are saying. The reason for the confusion is the wording and illustration in the ms8 manual. It says & shows to only use the Front L & R inputs along with the sub input. It has all the other channels with a box around it saying "do not use". This is why I was unsure on how to hook up 2 channels for the Left & 2 channels for the right. (high & low on each side)
Here is the illustration from the manual:










According to the picture, I only have 1 channel for front L & R. I need 2 channels.

However you are saying its okay to use Left High & Low on input channels 1 & 2 of the ms8 and Right High & Low to channels 3 & 4. Is this what you are saying?

Sorry for being dense.


----------



## taibanl

To be clear. Connect whatever combo of front channels it takes to get a full range front (incl sub) signal


----------



## taibanl

I think you go 1/2 l/r high, 3/4 l/r mid, 5/6 sub1/2. 

Personally i would measure/try the front signal (only 2 channels) prior to amp/dsp


----------



## taibanl

4thDoctorWhoFan said:


> According to the picture, I only have 1 channel for front L & R. I need 2 channels.
> 
> However you are saying its okay to use Left High & Low on input channels 1 & 2 of the ms8 and Right High & Low to channels 3 & 4. Is this what you are saying?
> 
> Sorry for being dense.


*Right...what the pic is telling you is use the front signals as opposed to the rear, however what is unspoken is that you use whatever portions of the front, via multiple inputs, to get a stereo front full range (incl sub)

No worries, I see why the confusion, i tend to be a bit terse when typing on the iphone.*


----------



## toolsong

Sub should always be on 7/8 rather than 5/6 

The text immediately above that picture from the manual says:



> Be sure to connect the outputs for all speakers that are part of the vehicle’s front left and front right speakers.


----------



## kaigoss69

toolsong said:


> Sub should always be on 7/8 rather than 5/6
> 
> The text immediately above that picture from the manual says:


5/6 will work as long as all the mid & high frequency inputs are connected at 1-4. So the sub input just needs to be the input with then highest number(s).


----------



## 4thDoctorWhoFan

So did Taibanl have it correct regarding the Front inputs:

Ch. 1: Front Left Hi
Ch. 2: Front Right Hi
Ch. 3: Front Left Low
Ch. 4: Front Right Low
Ch. 7: Sub (voice coil 1)
Ch. 8: Sub (voice coil 2)

Is this correct?
Hopefully I will be able to use that "enable" line as a remote on/off signal.

Again, thanks for everyone's help and input. It's really appreciated.


----------



## toolsong

kaigoss69 said:


> 5/6 will work as long as all the mid & high frequency inputs are connected at 1-4. So the sub input just needs to be the input with then highest number(s).


Interesting, thank you 



4thDoctorWhoFan said:


> So did Taibanl have it correct regarding the Front inputs:


Yes! I was pointing out that the instructions about connecting multiple front inputs are written in the manual and were not 'unspoken'. It would be a lot clearer with a second diagram demonstrating that configuration


----------



## psfong

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> We're testing a BT update now. It's a simple one--the mute button turns off processing. It appears to work in many cars, but not all cars.


I have done the mute-processing-off firmware update. However, my priority has changed and would like the mute functionality back. Is there a way to reverse this mod?


----------



## rcurley55

So after a marathon weekend of 36 hours on the car, I have my MS-8-based system installed. Here's the rundown:

2010 BMW 535i with the Hi-Fi stereo option
Technic harness provides full range RCA outputs from iDrive
JL 600/4 + 900/5 provides 150 x 5 +100 x 2 + 500 x 1
Morel Hybrid Ovation 4s in the doors (passive)
Morel Integra Ovation 4 in the center channel spot (passive)
Jenhert XE200s (8") under the seats
Morel Tempo 4" co-ax in the rear (passive)
JL Stealthbox (12w6)

Right now it's setup like this:
Sub - 80 Hz
Front - 2 way - 200 Hz
Center - 1 way - 200 Hz
Rears - 100 Hz
No sides - everything at 24db/octave slopes

Like most BMWs, the midbass is currently non-existent and the sub is too loud. As a result, it sounds really "honky" and "nasal." I started with all of the gains pegged to the lowest level on the amps. I upped the midbass amp gain and things got a little better, but the front stage is not all that defined - it's a little smeared. Perhaps I should cover the tweeters during the first set of sweeps and see if that helps things out. I'm also going to raise the subwoofer gain and see if that will help the MS-8 boost the midbass.

Looks like I have lots of experimenting to do, but so far so good. Unfortunately, I have a slight hint of alternator whine as well


----------



## taibanl

rcurley55 said:


> So after a marathon weekend of 36 hours on the car, I have my MS-8-based system installed. Here's the rundown:
> 
> 2010 BMW 535i with the Hi-Fi stereo option
> Technic harness provides full range RCA outputs from iDrive
> JL 600/4 + 900/5 provides 150 x 5 +100 x 2 + 500 x 1
> Morel Hybrid Ovation 4s in the doors (passive)
> Morel Integra Ovation 4 in the center channel spot (passive)
> Jenhert XE200s (8") under the seats
> Morel Tempo 4" co-ax in the rear (passive)
> JL Stealthbox (12w6)
> 
> Right now it's setup like this:
> Sub - 80 Hz
> Front - 2 way - 200 Hz
> Center - 1 way - 200 Hz
> Rears - 100 Hz
> No sides - everything at 24db/octave slopes
> 
> Like most BMWs, the midbass is currently non-existent and the sub is too loud. As a result, it sounds really "honky" and "nasal." I started with all of the gains pegged to the lowest level on the amps. I upped the midbass amp gain and things got a little better, but the front stage is not all that defined - it's a little smeared. Perhaps I should cover the tweeters during the first set of sweeps and see if that helps things out. I'm also going to raise the subwoofer gain and see if that will help the MS-8 boost the midbass.
> 
> Looks like I have lots of experimenting to do, but so far so good. Unfortunately, I have a slight hint of alternator whine as well


Kaigoss fixed his noise by moving his power runs away from the rxa's. One rca was picking up whine and transmitting it actoss com
On ground to other channels


----------



## taibanl

Also. Btw i am intsalling near identical system to yours in e90 except with rainbows. We should compare notes


----------



## rcurley55

taibanl said:


> Kaigoss fixed his noise by moving his power runs away from the rxa's. One rca was picking up whine and transmitting it actoss com
> On ground to other channels


We have been comparing notes over on E90. I'm trying to see if it's coming out of just or all channels. It appears to be strongest out of the center, but who knows if that's just the MS-8 working too well.

Let me know how yours goes.


----------



## taibanl

Just hooked up power....green lights . Have you tried dc one rca at a time?


----------



## rcurley55

taibanl said:


> Just hooked up power....green lights . Have you tried dc one rca at a time?


I have not had time to troubleshoot. The last connection was made last night at 9:00 PM. I ran a quick calibration and then called it a night. Played with the gain on the MBs between grabbing a coffee this morning and hitting the office.


----------



## taibanl

*Noisy Input Signal...*

I've just powered up my MS-8 for the first time since reconfiguring my amps, and rewiring etc....

I've switched from speaker level in, and recoded to HiFi, now using Low Level (RCA) in.

During input calibration, I am getting intermittent Signal "Noisy" / "None" with spurts of OK OK OK. I managed to get a solid signal long enough to get a calibration ONCE...but never again. Now if I get OK OK OK (47/55 volume), and continue, the "acquiring" process can't complete as I get a "Channel Missing" error message.

I unplugged my two new HD amps, so that should eliminate them as a cause of the noisy signal.

Could it be the twisted pair RCA's I crimped onto the end of the Technic vehicle harness? The actual conductor wire for those seemed very tiny.


***I am aware of the option to SKIP INPUT SETUP for a HiFi configured vehicle. Due to my use of the BMW station for iPhone, I don't wish to do this, as well as I would like to get a good reference point even if I SKIP INPUT SETUP on my final calibration.
__________________


----------



## jlee3

rcurley55 said:


> We have been comparing notes over on E90. I'm trying to see if it's coming out of just or all channels. It appears to be strongest out of the center, but who knows if that's just the MS-8 working too well.
> 
> Let me know how yours goes.


rcurley55, Just a suggestion. If you find that your problem is the wiring, you could drill holes in front of the power and ground inputs and run your wire on the other side of the board any way you want. You could also rotate the MS8 90 degrees so you can move the amps all the way to the front leaving more room to route all the wires behind the amps. You could also move the distribution block to the other side.


----------



## t3sn4f2

taibanl said:


> *Noisy Input Signal...*
> 
> I've just powered up my MS-8 for the first time since reconfiguring my amps, and rewiring etc....
> 
> I've switched from speaker level in, and recoded to HiFi, now using Low Level (RCA) in.
> 
> During input calibration, I am getting intermittent Signal "Noisy" / "None" with spurts of OK OK OK. I managed to get a solid signal long enough to get a calibration ONCE...but never again. Now if I get OK OK OK (47/55 volume), and continue, the "acquiring" process can't complete as I get a "Channel Missing" error message.
> 
> I unplugged my two new HD amps, so that should eliminate them as a cause of the noisy signal.
> 
> Could it be the twisted pair RCA's I crimped onto the end of the Technic vehicle harness? The actual conductor wire for those seemed very tiny.
> 
> 
> ***I am aware of the option to SKIP INPUT SETUP for a HiFi configured vehicle. Due to my use of the BMW station for iPhone, I don't wish to do this, as well as I would like to get a good reference point even if I SKIP INPUT SETUP on my final calibration.
> __________________


Get rid of those RCAs and buy one of these......

Car Audio - Connection Systems - Audio Connections - RCA to Speaker Wire










Crimp it onto the harness and connect the new rcas as usual. Those are different in that they have speaker level wiring instead of the delicate line level that should not be crimped or soldered to another wire.


----------



## taibanl

Would there any reason why i couldnt wire RCA's to the aux in and normal inputs in parallel?

I want to do this because my OEM system has flat response (for which i would select aux) while my iphone dock (oem accessory...no line out) has a sad face (inverse curve) frequenxy response for which i would like to do input cal.


----------



## taibanl

Edit to above...it would be on the same signal line.


----------



## t3sn4f2

taibanl said:


> Would there any reason why i couldnt wire RCA's to the aux in and normal inputs in parallel?
> 
> I want to do this because my OEM system has flat response (for which i would select aux) while my iphone dock (oem accessory...no line out) has a sad face (inverse curve) frequenxy response for which i would like to do input cal.


I'm not sure if the AUX in is differential like the main inputs.

Can you get another dock? iDevices have a ruler flat output and so should a typical dock.


----------



## taibanl

Not that suits my purposes. Its the bmw station for apple iphone. 

Also thought of getting the kivic one and putting it in the trunk and streaming airplay direct to ms-8


----------



## taibanl

taibanl said:


> Would there any reason why i couldnt wire RCA's to the aux in and normal inputs in parallel?
> 
> I want to do this because my OEM system has flat response (for which i would select aux) while my iphone dock (oem accessory...no line out) has a sad face (inverse curve) frequenxy response for which i would like to do input cal.





taibanl said:


> Edit to above...it would be on the same signal line.





t3sn4f2 said:


> I'm not sure if the AUX in is differential like the main inputs.
> 
> Can you get another dock? iDevices have a ruler flat output and so should a typical dock.


Andy?

Does aux take balanced diff input? Any issues with running the same feed and splitting to both aux and main inputs?


----------



## t3sn4f2

taibanl said:


> Andy?
> 
> *Does aux take balanced diff input?* Any issues with running the same feed and splitting to both aux and main inputs?


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/457392-post235.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/543700-post304.html


----------



## taibanl

Thank you


----------



## slinger1

nevermind...sorry for asking..


----------



## mitchyz250f

I am thinking of running two 4" mids for my center. In that configuration they would beam like a 8" left to right, and like a 4" front to back. Is that good or bad?


----------



## humphrieskris740

Remember that JBL MS-8 you plopped atop your must-have list back in March? No? Fret not, as quite a bit has happened in the meantime. Today, however, the aforesaid outfit is shipping its new in-car digital processor, which remains a bit of a mystery device that magically improves audio quality for up to four seating positions simultaneously. JBL assures us that the real secret sauce lies in the software, and with it, people will apparently "never experience music in their vehicle the same way again." This all sounds a bit Bose-ish to us, but at least we're told the specifications: the box includes an onboard 20W x 8 amplifier, eight-channel preamp-level and speaker-level inputs and outputs, and full-range stereo auxiliary input. The package also includes a wireless RF remote, LCD display (with a five-line, 128 x 64-pixel screen), Logic 7 technology and a graphic equalizer with 31 bands. The actual installation process also remains a mystery -- all we're told is that a pro could do it during the time it'd take you to have lunch, but given that this thing isn't wireless, you can bet that a good bit of splicing will be in order. Head on past the break for a look at what $799 nets you.


----------



## mitchyz250f

humphrieskris740 said:


> Remember that JBL MS-8 you plopped atop your must-have list back in March? No? Fret not, as quite a bit has happened in the meantime. Today, however, the aforesaid outfit is shipping its new in-car digital processor, which remains a bit of a mystery device that magically improves audio quality for up to four seating positions simultaneously. JBL assures us that the real secret sauce lies in the software, and with it, people will apparently "never experience music in their vehicle the same way again." This all sounds a bit Bose-ish to us, but at least we're told the specifications: the box includes an onboard 20W x 8 amplifier, eight-channel preamp-level and speaker-level inputs and outputs, and full-range stereo auxiliary input. The package also includes a wireless RF remote, LCD display (with a five-line, 128 x 64-pixel screen), Logic 7 technology and a graphic equalizer with 31 bands. The actual installation process also remains a mystery -- all we're told is that a pro could do it during the time it'd take you to have lunch, but given that this thing isn't wireless, you can bet that a good bit of splicing will be in order. Head on past the break for a look at what $799 nets you.


Not sure exactly what you are try to say. Are you just warning us that the JBL MS8 promises more that it can deliver and must be complicated to setup? The MS8 can actually simplify your install in some circumstance. Internal amps, crossovers and eq can mean you need less other equipment.

I am running the MS8 in 5.1 surround in my car, no eq., nothing boosted. Friends that are music teachers and professional musicians (guitar, violin, drummers) bring CDs over to my house so they can play it my car because they say the 'I know I am not hearing it all in my home system'. And they have good home systems.

So I can say it worked as advertised in my application.


----------



## slinger1

mitchyz250f said:


> I am thinking of running two 4" mids for my center. In that configuration they would beam like a 8" left to right, and like a 4" front to back. Is that good or bad?



I didnt get that post either...My system sounded great before i added the MS-8..I was skeptical too at first....After some time to get "the feel" for how to run auto tune and finding the best crossover points and slopes for my setup i am amazed with what this thing does...Im running 2 way fronts..1 way sides/rears and 2- 10'' subs under rear seat....I have an 09 f150...I am also thinking of adding a pair of 4'' center speakers in the dash trey..I only have 7 chanels of external amps so i will run my front tweets off the MS-8 on ch. 1 and 2..then bridge 2 chanels on the 4hc. amp that are used for the tweets now and send to the center..I ordered a pair of Morel 4c speakers..My concern now is they are 4ohm speakers so if i run them together they will be 8 or 1ohm....My amp wont do 1ohm so it would need to be 8 if i use both speakers...I didnt even think about the beaming effect of two 4''ers....In my case i think i will be better off just using 1 speaker for center and send it the bridged channel...Speakers will be here tomorrow and i will see what works best..Thats another thing i like about the MS-8...after install its so easy to make changes to your setup....

PS: you can get one for alot less then $799.00


----------



## nineball

slinger1 said:


> I didnt get that post either...My system sounded great before i added the MS-8..I was skeptical too at first....After some time to get "the feel" for how to run auto tune and finding the best crossover points and slopes for my setup i am amazed with what this thing does...Im running 2 way fronts..1 way sides/rears and 2- 10'' subs under rear seat....I have an 09 f150...I am also thinking of adding a pair of 4'' center speakers in the dash trey..I only have 7 chanels of external amps so i will run my front tweets off the MS-8 on ch. 1 and 2..then bridge 2 chanels on the 4hc. amp that are used for the tweets now and send to the center..I ordered a pair of Morel 4c speakers..My concern now is they are 4ohm speakers so if i run them together they will be 8 or 1ohm....My amp wont do 1ohm so it would need to be 8 if i use both speakers...I didnt even think about the beaming effect of two 4''ers....In my case i think i will be better off just using 1 speaker for center and send it the bridged channel...Speakers will be here tomorrow and i will see what works best..Thats another thing i like about the MS-8...after install its so easy to make changes to your setup....
> 
> PS: you can get one for alot less then $799.00


two 4ohm speakers will be 2 or 8 ohm, not 1 or 8. based on what you have provided us with i would suggest running your rears off the ms-8 internal amp and leaving the tweets amp'd. it has been said many times in here already but i'll repeat it again for you - your center channel speaker should be on par (quality and power) with your front stage.


----------



## rcurley55

mitchyz250f said:


> Not sure exactly what you are try to say. Are you just warning us that the JBL MS8 promises more that it can deliver and must be complicated to setup? The MS8 can actually simplify your install in some circumstance. Internal amps, crossovers and eq can mean you need less other equipment.
> 
> I am running the MS8 in 5.1 surround in my car, no eq., nothing boosted. Friends that are music teachers and professional musicians (guitar, violin, drummers) bring CDs over to my house so they can play it my car because they say the 'I know I am not hearing it all in my home system'. And they have good home systems.
> 
> So I can say it worked as advertised in my application.


For some odd reason, he's quoting the Engadget post here:

JBL ships MS-8 digital processor, promises to 'revolutionize' car audio -- Engadget

The last sentence was the tip off.


----------



## subwoofery

rcurley55 said:


> For some odd reason, he's quoting the Engadget post here:
> 
> JBL ships MS-8 digital processor, promises to 'revolutionize' car audio -- Engadget
> 
> The last sentence was the tip off.


lol, nice find 

Kelvin


----------



## slinger1

nineball said:


> two 4ohm speakers will be 2 or 8 ohm, not 1 or 8. based on what you have provided us with i would suggest running your rears off the ms-8 internal amp and leaving the tweets amp'd. it has been said many times in here already but i'll repeat it again for you - your center channel speaker should be on par (quality and power) with your front stage.


Thanks for the correction....dont know why i was thinking 1 ohm...I will try the rears on MS8 first...I have focal components running passive in rear now...Was just thinking the front tweets would need less power than the rears to still sound good...


----------



## humphrieskris740

All this off of the internal amp. It is only 18W per channel but should be enough to create enough volume for this purpose. I want to run it like that in order for me to determine whether or not I like the Logic 7 surround sound "magic" this unit is supposed to create (I have never been a big fan of rear fill or surround sound so we'll see). Then I will probably disconnect the rears and only run the front stage for a while. I believe I will like this better but you never know...

After that I will decide on how many channels I will run and how many more amps (if any) I need to buy. I will also consider running the front stage active. There are just so many scenarios you can end up with it is scary to think how much money I will burn in the process of finding the perfect set-up.

Anyway, this thread should be used for forum members who have already used this unit (or heard it in somebody else's car) to share their experiences so that we all can learn from it and hopefully help us make easier (and less costly) decisions in the end.

I will post my findings shortly and I encourage anyone else to do the same. I will update the OP from time to time with system configurations posted in this thread.


----------



## BuickGN

humphrieskris740 said:


> All this off of the internal amp. It is only 18W per channel but should be enough to create enough volume for this purpose. I want to run it like that in order for me to determine whether or not I like the Logic 7 surround sound "magic" this unit is supposed to create (I have never been a big fan of rear fill or surround sound so we'll see). Then I will probably disconnect the rears and only run the front stage for a while. I believe I will like this better but you never know...
> 
> After that I will decide on how many channels I will run and how many more amps (if any) I need to buy. I will also consider running the front stage active. There are just so many scenarios you can end up with it is scary to think how much money I will burn in the process of finding the perfect set-up.
> 
> Anyway, this thread should be used for forum members who have already used this unit (or heard it in somebody else's car) to share their experiences so that we all can learn from it and hopefully help us make easier (and less costly) decisions in the end.
> 
> I will post my findings shortly and I encourage anyone else to do the same. I will update the OP from time to time with system configurations posted in this thread.



Are you for real or is this a joke? Theres an off topic section if you're here to troll.


----------



## slinger1

Installed center speaker...Only using one 4'' coax. and running off MS8....First i tryed the rears on MS8 and center from ext. amp and it sounded good...Then i put the rears back on amp and center speaker on MS8...Now it sounds the best it ever has IMO....I have the center boosted about 3 clicks on ms8 and the stage is centered great for both front seats..Nice dynamics with L7 on...When L7 is defeated the rear speakers come "back on" it seems and its more stereo sounding...So on my system even the single 4'' center powered from MS8 did make an improvement to my ear....Still want to try to get another 4'' up ther and replace my 2ch amp with a 4ch then bridge it to the centers....but for now i love it.....


----------



## BigRed

Buick what happened to showing up to the meet on Saturday?. We were all looking forward to listening to the improvements you have made


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

So this weekend I finally got around to installing the MS8 into my 2007 Chevrolet Corvette. I wanted to see just what the MS8 could do with a stock stereo system, and wanted to see if I would be able to make it a 'plug-and-play' setup for the Corvette's audio system.

I went to Mouser and found the stock GM plugs and pins, and set about making my own wiring harness for the MS8. On my particular system, the navigation unit has four full-range outputs that feed to a Bose amplifier in the passenger footwell. The Bose amplifier takes the stereo input and creates a pseudo 4.2 system: Left - Center - Right with a rear mono signal to two drivers. The front doors each have a 10" bass driver with their own amplifier. The front main drivers (twiddlers) are the typical Bose 3.5" drivers. The rears I left unconnected, as I didn't want to cut the factory wiring harness and don't really like rear fill anyway. I may decide to run new speaker wire and replace the rear drivers at a later date... I haven't decided yet.

So to make this work, I took a set of RCA's and connected them to the front outputs from the HU. I connected these to inputs 1&2 on the MS8. I removed the main Bose amplifier and used the MS8 internal amp to power the L-C-R drivers on outputs 1,2, & 3. I used outputs 4 & 5 for the 10" bass drivers, keeping their internal amplifiers intact. I connected everything and fired up the system... bypassed the part where the MS8 wants to balance the inputs (the Corvette Nav unit is ruler flat) and started with the setup.

I read somewhere that the Bose system is crossed over at 200~300 Hz between the bass drivers and the twiddlers. I started off at 200, then dropped to 100, then went back to 160 Hz. I'm going to try 300 Hz next, just for giggles. I also tried 24db/octave slopes, as well as 18 db/octave... just to see what impact it would have. 

I have to say that I am less than impressed with what the MS8 is doing thus far. I have read that the Corvette does not respond well to the tuning... but perhaps I just need to keep playing with things? I can tell the difference between Logic 7 being on/off, and the imaging is really good overall... but it's lacking so much midbass it's unreal. Turning off the processing makes a huge difference, and restores the midbass... but perhaps my problem lies more in my setup than the MS8?

I'm going to try various setups to see what works, what changes, and so on. I'll try various crossover points, slopes, EQ settings, etc... but I realize that I'm polishing a turd by keeping my Bose drivers in the car. (My intent is to install a full system later... I just wanted to see what the MS8 could do as a 'plug and play' setup for the C6 Corvette.) 

The funny part of this is, the setup sounds a heck of a lot like the YPAO setup in my Yamaha receiver at home. Sweep the drivers, time align them, then eq the system... good stuff, provided it works the way it's supposed to.

More to come. 

Mark


----------



## theoldguy

Hi all! Just wanted to chime in and join the MS-8 bandwagon. Mine is in the mail and will be replacing an Alpine H701. depending on which one I like better, I will be selling the other. I must admit, the MS-8 was an impulse buy. I am excited to see what it can do for me (10, 4, tweet all up front powered by 2 alpine pdx 4.125 amps). 

I must admit, I did not read all 100 some pages of this thread. I have read as much as I can and didnt really see any helpful tips or tricks. Would it be possible to make an MS-8 sticky with tips and tricks? or maybe just post them up in this thread again? Thanks!


----------



## toolsong

You'll be looking for the MS-8 FAQ thread


----------



## theoldguy

oh snap! why is that not a sticky!?!?!


----------



## 14642

Fast Hot Rod said:


> So this weekend I finally got around to installing the MS8 into my 2007 Chevrolet Corvette. I wanted to see just what the MS8 could do with a stock stereo system, and wanted to see if I would be able to make it a 'plug-and-play' setup for the Corvette's audio system.
> 
> I went to Mouser and found the stock GM plugs and pins, and set about making my own wiring harness for the MS8. On my particular system, the navigation unit has four full-range outputs that feed to a Bose amplifier in the passenger footwell. The Bose amplifier takes the stereo input and creates a pseudo 4.2 system: Left - Center - Right with a rear mono signal to two drivers. The front doors each have a 10" bass driver with their own amplifier. The front main drivers (twiddlers) are the typical Bose 3.5" drivers. The rears I left unconnected, as I didn't want to cut the factory wiring harness and don't really like rear fill anyway. I may decide to run new speaker wire and replace the rear drivers at a later date... I haven't decided yet.
> 
> So to make this work, I took a set of RCA's and connected them to the front outputs from the HU. I connected these to inputs 1&2 on the MS8. I removed the main Bose amplifier and used the MS8 internal amp to power the L-C-R drivers on outputs 1,2, & 3. I used outputs 4 & 5 for the 10" bass drivers, keeping their internal amplifiers intact. I connected everything and fired up the system... bypassed the part where the MS8 wants to balance the inputs (the Corvette Nav unit is ruler flat) and started with the setup.
> 
> I read somewhere that the Bose system is crossed over at 200~300 Hz between the bass drivers and the twiddlers. I started off at 200, then dropped to 100, then went back to 160 Hz. I'm going to try 300 Hz next, just for giggles. I also tried 24db/octave slopes, as well as 18 db/octave... just to see what impact it would have.
> 
> I have to say that I am less than impressed with what the MS8 is doing thus far. I have read that the Corvette does not respond well to the tuning... but perhaps I just need to keep playing with things? I can tell the difference between Logic 7 being on/off, and the imaging is really good overall... but it's lacking so much midbass it's unreal. Turning off the processing makes a huge difference, and restores the midbass... but perhaps my problem lies more in my setup than the MS8?
> 
> I'm going to try various setups to see what works, what changes, and so on. I'll try various crossover points, slopes, EQ settings, etc... but I realize that I'm polishing a turd by keeping my Bose drivers in the car. (My intent is to install a full system later... I just wanted to see what the MS8 could do as a 'plug and play' setup for the C6 Corvette.)
> 
> The funny part of this is, the setup sounds a heck of a lot like the YPAO setup in my Yamaha receiver at home. Sweep the drivers, time align them, then eq the system... good stuff, provided it works the way it's supposed to.
> 
> More to come.
> 
> Mark


Mark,
Try changing the polarity of the outputs of the MS-8 that are connected to the 10" drivers and make sure they're connected in "phase" with each other. Configure the system so that 10" are Front Low (maybe you've done that already). If the crossovers and DSP are in the amp that drives the 10" speakers, this may be part of the problem. You could try running the 10s directly from MS-8.


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Mark,
> Try changing the polarity of the outputs of the MS-8 that are connected to the 10" drivers and make sure they're connected in "phase" with each other.


Andy,

You must be reading my mind... I was thinking about that on the ride into work this morning... I knew that some people have had a lack of midbass due to polarity issues, so that was going to be my next step. While I know that I wired it 'correctly' based on the schematics, it's possible that it's backwards based on the original design and implementation.



> Configure the system so that 10" are Front Low (maybe you've done that already).


Yessir... exactly what I did. The fronts are setup as a two-way with a 300 Hz crossover point. :thumbsup:



> If the crossovers and DSP are in the amp that drives the 10" speakers, this may be part of the problem. You could try running the 10s directly from MS-8.


From what I understand, the main Bose amp that I removed takes the stereo input from the HU, then creates the four (L-C-R-Rear) speaker outputs that are crossed over at approximately 200 ~ 300 Hz high pass. It also sends the right and left low pass signals to the Bose amps on each individual 10" bass driver "pod." My thought is that the main Bose amp also includes the crossover, and that the door 'pods' receive the signal and simply amplify it.

I bought the factory style plugs that connect to the factory amp, and I'm tempted to test the amp on the bench to see if that's the case or not. I could also just set the MS8 crossover point of the low frequency driver to 1KHz and see if that's indeed the case, or if the in-door amp has it's own crossover.

I currently have the system configured as follows:

HU ---> MS8 RCA Input 1 & 2

High Level Output 1: Front Right High
High Level Output 2: Front Left High
High Level Output 3: Center 
High Level Output 4: Front Right Low
High Level Output 5: Front Left Low

Front is configured as a 2-way, 20Hz subsonic, 300 Hz crossover point - 18 dB/octave. Center is set for a single driver - 160Hz high pass - 18 dB/Octave.

Here's the schematics, if you're interested:










Tonight I'll swap the front low driver polarity and re-tune it and let you know what I come up with. Thanks! 

Mark


----------



## Labrador

Hi there!
I am new in your forum and hope someone can help me.

I upgraded my 2010 Volkswagen Scirocco with JBL's MS-8 processor last weekend. My headunit is a Volkswagen RNS315 GPS navigation unit and I have no other amplifiers installed.

After installing an wiring the equipment, I tried to setup the system with the enclosed CD and setup track. The MS-8's display showed "signal low" so I turned up the volume on the headunit a bit, but then the display showed "no signal". My headunit's volumelevel ist rated from 0 to 30. At 13 it is "signal low" and at 14 it is "no signal".

After that I tried another headunit and found an older Alpine in my brother's stock. We connected the Alpine, runned the CD an everything worked fine.
So we reconnected the Volkswagen RNS and everything was as before (no signal). After that, we downloaded the .wav file from JBL homepage and copied it on an Ipod, connected the Ipod with the headunit's AUX-in and played the setup file via AUX-in, but reaction of the MS-8 was the same as before.

Then we skipped the initial setup und went on, configuring the crossover and channels and now there is music coming from the speakers. But lacking the initial setup, the sound ist not so good as it should be.

What is wrong? Has anybody similar problems with the setup and Volkswagen headunits?


----------



## thx138

I have a 2010 Camry with the basic radio in it, no nav no jbl. I tried to install the MS8 over the weekend and just got a noisy signal during setup. Any ideas on what to do?


----------



## glowworm238

I had a similar issue on a RCD-510, try using Vag-Com and code the radio soundsystem installed. It changes the head unit from amplified output to line level. See the following link
h**p://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19375


Labrador said:


> Hi there!
> I am new in your forum and hope someone can help me.
> 
> I upgraded my 2010 Volkswagen Scirocco with JBL's MS-8 processor last weekend. My headunit is a Volkswagen RNS315 GPS navigation unit and I have no other amplifiers installed.
> 
> After installing an wiring the equipment, I tried to setup the system with the enclosed CD and setup track. The MS-8's display showed "signal low" so I turned up the volume on the headunit a bit, but then the display showed "no signal". My headunit's volumelevel ist rated from 0 to 30. At 13 it is "signal low" and at 14 it is "no signal".
> 
> After that I tried another headunit and found an older Alpine in my brother's stock. We connected the Alpine, runned the CD an everything worked fine.
> So we reconnected the Volkswagen RNS and everything was as before (no signal). After that, we downloaded the .wav file from JBL homepage and copied it on an Ipod, connected the Ipod with the headunit's AUX-in and played the setup file via AUX-in, but reaction of the MS-8 was the same as before.
> 
> Then we skipped the initial setup und went on, configuring the crossover and channels and now there is music coming from the speakers. But lacking the initial setup, the sound ist not so good as it should be.
> 
> What is wrong? Has anybody similar problems with the setup and Volkswagen headunits?


----------



## Labrador

glowworm238 said:


> I had a similar issue on a RCD-510, try using Vag-Com and code the radio soundsystem installed. It changes the head unit from amplified output to line level. See the following link
> h**p://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19375



Thank you for your answer. So you changed to soundsystem and connected the HU outputs directly to the chinch-Ins of the MS-8?
Did you connect all outputs or only the front outputs?


----------



## glowworm238

I just used the front channel inputs, I ran the following line to RCA converters. The input test worked on mine from Volume level 18 - 20, I had the best luck at 19; this was with the RCD-510, not sure about the 315. Also make sure that all your fader and balance are centered, all tone settings are 0, and the speed compensation zeroed or disabled before you do the MS8 setup CD test.
h**p://www.jlaudio.com/car-audio-connection-systems-audio-connections-rca-to-speaker-wire


Labrador said:


> Thank you for your answer. So you changed to soundsystem and connected the HU outputs directly to the chinch-Ins of the MS-8?
> Did you connect all outputs or only the front outputs?


----------



## pit viper

After spending a few days searching this huge thread trying to find someone with my same issue, I figured I'd better just sign up and post.

I have a 2008 Pontiac G8 GT, stock head unit running to my MS-8.
The setup is this:
Channels
1 - FL
2 - FR
3 - SL
4 - SR
5 - C
8 - Sub

The fronts are Boston Acoustics 6.5" components in the stock door location, with the tweeters in the stock dash location.
Center is a 4".
Sides are stock 6.5" in the rear doors.
The sides are running off the MS-8, the fronts and center off of an Elemental Design nine.4 amp, subs off an Arc 1500.

My problem stems from running Logic7. When I do, the voices shift to the rear door speakers 80% of the time. It doesn't seem to matter if it's radio, cd, or ipod through the head unit. All the speakers are phased the same.
Should I be running the rear door speakers as "rear", instead of "side"? Or will that not make a difference?


----------



## dowheelies

Double check your RCA are indeed in 1&2 as they are run 1,2,3,4 top row and 5,6,7,8 bottom. Not like conventional that 1-2,3-4,5-6,7-8 are stacked.

Not trying to insult your intelligence but it's bit a few people.

Guessing you center thinks it's playing FR and your SL thinks it's playing center...

Hopefully it's that simple.

Eric


----------



## pit viper

I wish it were that simple! . I would be happy to admit a simple mistake.
The rca's are correct. I've gone through the setup a few times, and verified that the pink noise is coming out of each speaker it's supposed to on the proper turn.


----------



## dowheelies

Bummer that would have been an easy fix...

What happens when you fade the MS-8 to 100% front?

I don't think you can set an MS-8 output as "rear" without selecting "sides" first. 

good luck,

Eric


----------



## t3sn4f2

Pick sides when only rears or sides are installed. Dunno if that will fix the problem though, but it is how it should be set up.


----------



## pit viper

t3sn4f2 said:


> Pick sides when only rears or sides are installed. Dunno if that will fix the problem though, but it is how it should be set up.


Right now I have sides picked, so that must not be the issue.


----------



## t3sn4f2

pit viper said:


> After spending a few days searching this huge thread trying to find someone with my same issue, I figured I'd better just sign up and post.
> 
> I have a 2008 Pontiac G8 GT, stock head unit running to my MS-8.
> The setup is this:
> Channels
> 1 - FL
> 2 - FR
> 3 - SL
> 4 - SR
> 5 - C
> 8 - Sub
> 
> The fronts are Boston Acoustics 6.5" components in the stock door location, with the tweeters in the stock dash location.
> Center is a 4".
> Sides are stock 6.5" in the rear doors.
> The sides are running off the MS-8, the fronts and center off of an Elemental Design nine.4 amp, subs off an Arc 1500.
> 
> My problem stems from running Logic7. When I do, the voices shift to the rear door speakers 80% of the time. *It doesn't seem to matter if it's radio, cd, or ipod through the head unit.* All the speakers are phased the same.
> Should I be running the rear door speakers as "rear", instead of "side"? Or will that not make a difference?


Does the OEM head unit have a center output or did you install one yourself? If so did you connect it to the ms-8 inputs? Is there a multichannel on/off setting on your head unit? If so try turning it off, removing the center feed from the ms-8 input and rerun cal. 

If none of the above applies, you can also try plugging in the ipod directly into the AUX in of the ms-8 and see if the problem goes away. You don't need to recalibrate for this. In fact you shouldn't since then you would be changing to factors at one time.


----------



## pit viper

The car does have a stock center channel. However, I didn't hook it up to the ms-8 inputs. I only pulled the front speaker feeds, and the subwoofer post-amp feeds.There is not a multichannel on/off setting that I'm aware of.


----------



## t3sn4f2

pit viper said:


> The car does have a stock center channel. However, I didn't hook it up to the ms-8 inputs. I only pulled the front speaker feeds, and the subwoofer post-amp feeds.There is not a multichannel on/off setting that I'm aware of.


That could be the problem. Try the ms-8 as is from the ipod directly into the aux in.


----------



## pit viper

Should input be pulled from the factory center channel to the ms-8? The om diagram shows the center channel as "DO NOT USE".


----------



## t3sn4f2

pit viper said:


> Should input be pulled from the factory center channel to the ms-8? The om diagram shows the center channel as "DO NOT USE".


Yes.


----------



## kaigoss69

t3sn4f2 said:


> Yes.


Why?


----------



## kaigoss69

pit viper said:


> My problem stems from running Logic7. When I do, the voices shift to the rear door speakers 80% of the time.


What does it sound like with Logic 7 off???


----------



## t3sn4f2

kaigoss69 said:


> Why?


Because the MS-8 can not reconstruct a "multichannel" input (ie 5.1, 6.1, etc.) back into the base full range stereo signal it needs. That is the reason Andy tells people to turn it off and leave it that way.


----------



## subwoofery

Andy, 
I'd like to try a center channel using an AMT driver in my missies car. 
Would like to know which setup would work best with the MS-8. 

Setup will use only 1 channel from MS-8 with passive between the 6" round driver and the AMT. Passive Xover has adjustments for mid (full-range or LP) and for the AMT (Xover point AND slope on the HP). 

A, B, C or D? 
AMT.pdf - Speedy Share - upload your files here
Red arrow shows the wider dispersion side... 
Feeling says B or C although C and D would probably be perceived as the same thing (high freq attenuation) by the MS-8 mic unless the windshield helps in some way. 

Thank you, 
Kelvin


----------



## kaigoss69

t3sn4f2 said:


> Because the MS-8 can not reconstruct a "multichannel" input (ie 5.1, 6.1, etc.) back into the base full range stereo signal it needs. That is the reason Andy tells people to turn it off and leave it that way.


I don't have my center input connected, I just turn the HU Logic 7 off. Why should he connect the center rather than just switching the "surround" mode off?

Edit: I see now where he said he can't switch the multichannel mode off.


----------



## VW_GTI

glowworm238 said:


> I just used the front channel inputs, I ran the following line to RCA converters. The input test worked on mine from Volume level 18 - 20, I had the best luck at 19; this was with the RCD-510, not sure about the 315. Also make sure that all your fader and balance are centered, all tone settings are 0, and the speed compensation zeroed or disabled before you do the MS8 setup CD test.
> h**p://www.jlaudio.com/car-audio-connection-systems-audio-connections-rca-to-speaker-wire


I'm going to have this same setup as well... RCD 510 to MS-8 (to PDX-V9). It sounds like you had the best luck coding the HU to sound system installed and then adding rcas to the low level input on the MS-8? What's the logic behind this? Is this better then just speaker level from the HU to the MS-8? 

Does anyone else have experience with a similar set-up? Is it generally true that line level is better if possible?

Thanks for answering all the newby questions.


----------



## pit viper

kaigoss69 said:


> What does it sound like with Logic 7 off???


It sounds pretty good. But I can tell, when Logic 7 is working right, that it would sound better.


----------



## kaigoss69

pit viper said:


> It sounds pretty good. But I can tell, when Logic 7 is working right, that it would sound better.


What I wanted to know is...when you have Logic7 on, the voices come mostly from the rear. When you have it off, voices come from the front?


----------



## pit viper

kaigoss69 said:


> What I wanted to know is...when you have Logic7 on, the voices come mostly from the rear. When you have it off, voices come from the front?


Yes, that is correct.


----------



## kaigoss69

pit viper said:


> Yes, that is correct.


That sounds like it could be a phase-related issue with the inputs. Andy W. should know what to do.


----------



## dlheman

I am not so sure whether to talk about it here or create a new post, but since it is MS8 related I thought I post it here to showcase how awesome MS8 is. 

I installed Boston SPZ60 and Neo Type M SE imaging system tweeters. SPZ60 as coaxials and Neo in stock tweeter compartment on corner of the dash. I wire both SPZ60's and Neo's passive from a single output from my DLS A3 as parallel. No attenuation for SPZ60, and as for Neo I set the high pass from 3khz with -3db attenuation. 










This Boston SPZ60 is the easiest speaker set I ever installed and it yielded so much win with great sound without Eq and T.A. The sound is definitely up on dash with this setup and any car can do this. No such thing as harsh or bright sounding tweeter from Boston; if they sounded bright then the installation is incorrect and doors requires proper sound proofing. And speaking about installation, MS8 also sounds bad if installation of your speaker is incorrectly installed. So it goes hand in hand.

After MS8 auto-tuned my BA setup - WHAM! 
MS8 just transformed the BA SPZ60 + Neo into something so spectacular when you consider it is coaxial speakers with added ambiance tweeter only. The soundstage's width is pillar to pillar, the height is eye level, depth is as far as the windshield. Tonal balance is excellent, it sounded full and rich. 

Can I get better results if say I use kickpanel or run the spz as separates? I'm sure I can, but why should I do that when just by installing it on the door and use MS8 to do the sound processing yielded so much award with little effort? No headache necessary to get great sounding car with this setup~!

Oh and by the way, I am not using the center speaker in this setup. Only front (80hz/24db), side (100hz/24db), rear (100hz/24db) and sub. 

JBL MS8 is ace!!!!


----------



## Labrador

VW_GTI said:


> I'm going to have this same setup as well... RCD 510 to MS-8 (to PDX-V9). It sounds like you had the best luck coding the HU to sound system installed and then adding rcas to the low level input on the MS-8? What's the logic behind this? Is this better then just speaker level from the HU to the MS-8?
> 
> Does anyone else have experience with a similar set-up? Is it generally true that line level is better if possible?
> 
> Thanks for answering all the newby questions.


You might encounter the same issue as already described above and known to JBL as the "Audi-Issue":
Thing is, that when you calibrate the MS-8 to the Volkswagen factory HU, you will use the enclosed CD with that special track. The MS-8's display will read "signal low" until you raise volume over a certain point (on my RNS315, it's between 13 an 14) and then "no signal", so the calibration will not work at all.
What you can do is either skip the setup and go on with configuring your outputs (the MS-8 will perform great, nevertheless!) or you try to change coding of your headunit to "soundsystem" and go for the RCA-inputs. You will need a VCDS to do so.

My current setup is running fine. I skipped the automatic configuration.


----------



## t3sn4f2

dlheman said:


> I am not so sure whether to talk about it here or create a new post, but since it is MS8 related I thought I post it here to showcase how awesome MS8 is.
> 
> I installed Boston SPZ60 and Neo Type M SE imaging system tweeters. SPZ60 as coaxials and Neo in stock tweeter compartment on corner of the dash. I wire both SPZ60's and Neo's passive from a single output from my DLS A3 as parallel. No attenuation for SPZ60, and as for Neo I set the high pass from 3khz with -3db attenuation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Boston SPZ60 is the easiest speaker set I ever installed and it yielded so much win with great sound without Eq and T.A. The sound is definitely up on dash with this setup and any car can do this. No such thing as harsh or bright sounding tweeter from Boston; if they sounded bright then the installation is incorrect and doors requires proper sound proofing. And speaking about installation, MS8 also sounds bad if installation of your speaker is incorrectly installed. So it goes hand in hand.
> 
> After MS8 auto-tuned my BA setup - WHAM!
> MS8 just transformed the BA SPZ60 + Neo into something so spectacular when you consider it is coaxial speakers with added ambiance tweeter only. The soundstage's width is pillar to pillar, the height is eye level, depth is as far as the windshield. Tonal balance is excellent, it sounded full and rich.
> 
> Can I get better results if say I use kickpanel or run the spz as separates? I'm sure I can, but why should I do that when just by installing it on the door and use MS8 to do the sound processing yielded so much award with little effort? No headache necessary to get great sounding car with this setup~!
> 
> Oh and by the way, I am not using the center speaker in this setup. Only front (80hz/24db), side (100hz/24db), rear (100hz/24db) and sub.
> 
> JBL MS8 is ace!!!!


Cool, sounds like you hit on a combination that is friendly to your car. I think the key in your setup is that the waveguide on the spz tweeter is given you the lower treble (~1-3kHz) that is normally lost with a severely off axis mounted 6.5" driver. 

I'd be curious to see how the sound would change if you move the spz and ambient tweeters to their own ms-8 channels. Lowpassing the coax at 3-4kHz, leaving its passive and tweeter as is now. And then the ambient package highpass at the same but removing the passive on it so the ms-8 can take complete control.

I understand it sounds spectacular now, but it'd be fun to try as an experiment. After all we can't know if something can sound better when there isn't something to compare it to. 

Regardless though, those SPZ seem like a great option for anyone not willing to go to a 3 way, yet wanting to fill in that lower treble gap.


----------



## dlheman

Ah, you're suggesting a pseudo 3-way. 

Highpassing the Neo at 3k - 4k and lowpassing the spz there will not work. The Neo is 8ohm driver and on its own u cannot hear much at all (SPZ is 3ohm). I think the Neo xover is 18db. And the SPZ's xover is 24db, which suggested me the cutoff point is probably 2.5khz or 3khz. 

If I am to try what you said, I would use another 4ohm tweeter but cut higher for the ambiance, which I did with my AVI kick setup a long time ago. I added a ribbon tweeter on the dash, run avi from passive, and cut the avi from I think at that time 6khz 12db. I also tried 10khz at 6db. Not liking what I heard, but different speakers, different results. 

But honestly there is no need to complicated things like that though, and that's the point with this BA setup. The ambiance, main tweeter and midbass seamlessly plays together as one with eye level stage, and that's what MS8 would heard too, and if it didn't it wont result in sound image so great the speakers literally disappeared and you just hear the sound in front of you.


----------



## dowheelies

MS-8 went down on me and I'm not sure if it's the screen, cable or unit itself.

Yesterday on the way home I was jamming the to The Doors at about 3/4 volume. sounded great and then some distortion/buzzing and the right side mid slowly started hissing. I turned it down immediately! I assumed the driver just blew but was very surprised as I really wasn't pushing them hard (compared to many listening sessions).

Back home I turned it back on and even at very low volume the driver sounded shot.

Today wanting to have tunes again I figured an easy temporary solution would be to run 2way front and just take the mid out of the mix by retuning the MS-8 from 3 way front MB Quart Q 1,4,6.5 to running the front 2 way 6.5 mid and tweet only.

I reran set up and selected crossover channels etc. but the the remote/screen wouldn't select "continue" when it asks you to insert setup disc. I've had screen/remote issues since day one but it usually just takes replugging the screen. It worked again and I got all the way through set up running the 4 test tones and the screen/remote froze again. Couldnt select/change on the rerun, measure next position or done screen (cant recall exact wording on that menu).

I waited quite awhile the decided to try replugging the screen. This is what I got and have now continuously. 








[/IMG]

I've tried the reset button, multiple reboots, replugging the screen from both ends, removing power completely all to no avail :-( 

Anybody have similar or an idea what went wrong?

I'm fairly confident the speaker incident and the issue today may be related and something failed in the MS-8 main unit.

More than likely will need to pull the unit out to send to JBL....

NO output from the MS-8 now at all obviously.

Eric


----------



## Machine7

I am looking for advice on how to set up my rear speakers for best imaging.

Car is a 2011 CRV = rear speakers are located low and just behind the front seats. 

Andy W has said that the rear speakers are best set up high. 
That being said, would it be best to go 2 way component so I can mount the tweeters up high? Or just stay co-axial? 
If I should go with a component set- where should I mount the tweeters and how should I aim them?

One possible concern: My front stage is running fully active on a 24/db slope both from the sub to the mids and mids to tweeters (fully active). 
Will the sound be off if I run a different slope on the rears? 

Thanks- I'm really excited. Every time I tweak a little the MS8 pays off in spades so can't wait to see what I'm missing with rears (and possibly adding a center).


----------



## t3sn4f2

Machine7 said:


> I am looking for advice on how to set up my rear speakers for best imaging.
> 
> Car is a 2011 CRV = rear speakers are located low and just behind the front seats.
> 
> Andy W has said that the rear speakers are best set up high.
> That being said, would it be best to go 2 way component so I can mount the tweeters up high? Or just stay co-axial?
> If I should go with a component set- where should I mount the tweeters and how should I aim them?
> 
> One possible concern: My front stage is running fully active on a 24/db slope both from the sub to the mids and mids to tweeters (fully active).
> Will the sound be off if I run a different slope on the rears?
> 
> Thanks- I'm really excited. Every time I tweak a little the MS8 pays off in spades so can't wait to see what I'm missing with rears (and possibly adding a center).


A component set with tweeter high on the door panel would be better. Mount them in front of the top of the handles round nub, located where they look nice and fits depth wise. Aim them up slightly if you can and at the other side of the car, or straight and at the other side of the car.










The slopes don't have to match. Why don't you want to use the same slope for the sides?


----------



## Machine7

Thanks for the advice. I can't run them active though. I already have 5 channels in use on the ms8 between the front stage tweet/mids (4) and sub (1). Adding rear speakers (2) and I'm already at 7 leaving nothing extra for active tweets.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Machine7 said:


> Thanks for the advice. I can't run them active though. I already have 5 channels in use on the ms8 between the front stage tweet/mids (4) and sub (1). Adding rear speakers (2) and I'm already at 7 leaving nothing extra for active tweets.


Passives are fine. You might want to check with Andy W. from JBL to see if there is a special procedure that needs to be done during calibrating when using passive and the tweeter and woofer are at drastically different path length to you. This sometimes needs to be done with the fronts but I don't know for sure with the rears. It has to do with covering up the tweeters during some sweeps so that the T/A is set to the mid instead of the nearer tweeter. Who phase relation to other speakers and bands is more important.


----------



## Machine7

Yeah I think Andy just replies here unless you think I should message him. 

I've spent a good chunk of change on everything already- and not looking to shoot myself in the foot at this point... But I'm thinking the rear is just fill. 

So am I nuts thinking of taking some NOS (at least 12 years old) JBL Gto 6.0 speakers (very unlively, dull sounding) and pairing them with better tweeters (HAT clarus). I would think I'd be best off to also bypass the capacitors (resistors?) on the side of their baskets and use the HAT clarus crossovers. Is that a terrible idea?? 

I abandoned the HAT Clarus tweeters on my front stage because on axis they are quite bright. In their place I got some great laid back sounding tweeters. Would those clarus tweets be screwing up my stage even off axis since they are that much brighter?

Any kits out there youd recommend instead? Maybe some


----------



## Machine7

got cut off there..
Maybe something that I can reasonably power with the resident ms8 amp? I think I read for rear (side in this case) you don't need much power.


----------



## rdv

Machine7 said:


> I am looking for advice on how to set up my rear speakers for best imaging.
> 
> Car is a 2011 CRV = rear speakers are located low and just behind the front seats.
> 
> Andy W has said that the rear speakers are best set up high.
> That being said, would it be best to go 2 way component so I can mount the tweeters up high? Or just stay co-axial?
> If I should go with a component set- where should I mount the tweeters and how should I aim them?
> 
> One possible concern: My front stage is running fully active on a 24/db slope both from the sub to the mids and mids to tweeters (fully active).
> Will the sound be off if I run a different slope on the rears?
> 
> Thanks- I'm really excited. Every time I tweak a little the MS8 pays off in spades so can't wait to see what I'm missing with rears (and possibly adding a center).


I have a 2007 crv so our layout is pretty much the same. i am also running an ms8 and i didn't even change my rear speakers. i kept them stock and ran them off the ms8's internal amps. they play loud enough and the ambience and effect they give is really good. they were almost too loud so i had to play around with the gains on the external amp that was powering the other speakers. i didn't add tweeters to the rears. 

i would say try to work with whatever you have now (unless you really wanted to experiment with other drivers and you want to modify your doors). if it sounds good then your work is done. the ms8 will tune the rears anyway no matter what speakers you put in.


----------



## Machine7

I have the factory subwoofer which is actually the rear speakers themselves. I had thought they might not have tweeters. Are yours the same?

I started looking into jbl p660c's but they run at 90 watts rms. I'm trying to avoid another amp so I'm not sure the ms8 on board amp is enough to support it. 

So good imaging/effect with factory locations seems ideal.


----------



## t3sn4f2

rdv said:


> I have a 2007 crv so our layout is pretty much the same. i am also running an ms8 and i didn't even change my rear speakers. i kept them stock and ran them off the ms8's internal amps. they play loud enough and the ambience and effect they give is really good. they were almost too loud so i had to play around with the gains on the external amp that was powering the other speakers. i didn't add tweeters to the rears.
> 
> i would say try to work with whatever you have now (unless you really wanted to experiment with other drivers and you want to modify your doors). if it sounds good then your work is done. the ms8 will tune the rears anyway no matter what speakers you put in.


I'm all for trying things out that don't cost anything more, but in this particular case I can see an issue. The MS-8 Logic7 recommends that the sides and rears be able to go from ~100Hz to 10kHz. An OEM mid mounted 80-90 degrees off axis and firing through a restrictive grill design to protect the driver from a foot instead off with acoustic transparent in mind is not going to have any appreciable output in the higher treble. So the MS-8 is going to try and compensate by boosting that range, and I say boost because I can't see it cutting everything else by the 20+dB that that woofer will lack on the high range. There is only so many dB of effective dynamic range to go around. 

Adding a tweeter, even if off axis will greatly add to the missing upper treble.

I think that is one of the big reasons Andy recommends that you use a tweeter on every stage that calls for it.


----------



## Machine7

I agree- and what you say makes sense. 

I am now thinking coaxial to avoid tweeter aiming / time correction issues. I just would have no idea where to mount separate tweeters for best results and how to keep the ms8 happy running a passive crossover in such a configuration. 

In the case of coaxial I am thinking HAT Mirrus 6.5. And I do intend on drilling out all factory grills, possibly even doing a custom grill cloth insert. 

Thoughts?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Machine7 said:


> I am now thinking coaxial to avoid tweeter aiming / time correction issues. I just would have no idea where to mount separate tweeters for best results and how to keep the ms8 happy running a passive crossover in such a configuration.


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1000641-post2091.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1008963-post2284.html

Mount them where I mentioned earlier.



Machine7 said:


> In the case of coaxial I am thinking HAT Mirrus 6.5. And I do intend on drilling out all factory grills, possibly even doing a custom grill cloth insert.


The Mirrus are a good option you are going to go with a coax, but you want to try a side passive component setup I'd move up to something that is designed to double as a component set as well. The Imagine series aren't _that_ much more and have a door panel friendly tweeter mount that even seems to be aimable(?). Although, for a Logic7 side/rear that hardly shows on most music genres, I'm sure something less pricey yet as tweeter install friendly will do. Look for an older model series or a used one IMO.


----------



## Machine7

Ah great. I already ordered the Mirus 6.5 coaxials. They are spec'd at 92.6db sensitivity and RMS is 80 watts vs the Imagine's 93.2db and RMS of 100 watts.

I only have the resident power of the ms8 to spare right now. The tweeter does swivel on the Mirus. 

So did I just shoot myself in the foot trying to get the order in before the holiday? Should I return them in favor of the Imagines due to the seperate tweeter? 

I could always bypass the tweeters on the Mirus' and use my HAT Clarus crossovers/tweeters I guess??


----------



## rdv

Machine7 said:


> I have the factory subwoofer which is actually the rear speakers themselves. I had thought they might not have tweeters. Are yours the same?
> 
> I started looking into jbl p660c's but they run at 90 watts rms. I'm trying to avoid another amp so I'm not sure the ms8 on board amp is enough to support it.
> 
> So good imaging/effect with factory locations seems ideal.


My rear speakers arent subs, thats why i was able to use them as rears. Yours probably wont work for that purpose and with the crv there isnt much placement for rears speakers unless you get creative and start modifying panels. 

If you already have the jbls or if theyre cheap then you can always try them out. The thing with rears on the ms8 is that you shouldnt let them play much bass and that leaves you with plenty of options for drivers and placement.


----------



## Machine7

I'll play with the old speakers/clarus tweets, covering them during the first phase of T/A and report back. Thank you all for your input


----------



## theoldguy

I just wanted to post up a quick update for me. I replaced my alpine H701 processor and W205 head unit with the JBL MS8 and an old eclipse cd8445 head unit. First thing I noticed right away (after running through the setup disk) was that some of the rattles in the vehicle I had with the old setup were gone. I also noticed how much more dynamic the music sounded. Obviously I am not smart enough to tune my own stuff so this "processor for dummies" (ms8) is definitely for me. Im sold!

There are 2 things I do not like though which are fairly minor and easy for me to work around. 
1 - the size of the unit. This thing is huge compared to my H701. I dont know if Ill be able to mount it in the same location. 
2 - I havent messed with it a whole lot yet, but I noticed after running through the setup disk a few times, I have to crank the volume on the HU just to hear anything.


----------



## shamie

Make sure you have the MS-8 gain set correctly. I set mine to ~-10db.


----------



## theoldguy

gain? I didnt see any gain control. I only saw the volume control which I have set to -8db


----------



## nineball

theoldguy said:


> gain? I didnt see any gain control. I only saw the volume control which I have set to -8db


same thing. if you are controlling volume via your hu (and not the ms8 remote) gain should be set around -3db per the manual if i recall correctly, or maybe -6db. your manual will tell you.


----------



## Machine7

I have the same issue. I set my gains to -25db during setup and run it at -4db. It's still low on some recordings. 

Also, I just tried Andy's suggestion for those who have tweeters not near their mids. I covered my tweeters during the very first test tone set (and repeated for each seating position in the same way). What a difference! Much higher, broader and stabile imaging. 

One question- I lost the page where gain setting of amps is discussed. Anyone want to give me the lowdown?


----------



## nineball

Machine7 said:


> One question- I lost the page where gain setting of amps is discussed. Anyone want to give me the lowdown?




2.7v. any more than that is not needed.


----------



## theoldguy

Machine7 said:


> Also, I just tried Andy's suggestion for those who have tweeters not near their mids. I covered my tweeters during the very first test tone set (and repeated for each seating position in the same way). What a difference! Much higher, broader and stabile imaging.


I have to admit, I didnt read all 151 pages of this thread. What did Andy suggest covering the tweeters with?


nineball - gains and volume the same thing :surprised:


----------



## nineball

theoldguy said:


> I have to admit, I didnt read all 151 pages of this thread. What did Andy suggest covering the tweeters with?
> 
> 
> nineball - gains and volume the same thing :surprised:


a towel.

ya i know they are not the same thing but that is how it was explained here so i just ran with it.


----------



## slpery

OK, just installed all my gear incl MS-8.
Ive used the OEM headunit's 2 front speaker high level outputs.

MS-8 outputs:
CH1 - L High
CH2 - L Mid
CH3 - L Low
CH4 - R High
CH5 - R Mid
CH6 - R Low
No subs installed yet so 7 and 8 not used.

Now, the signal is getting to the input plug, but no noise is coming out of the MS-8. I still had the rear channels hooked up to the factory speakers (but faded forward initially) so i was able to play the cd to get past initial calibration. (I know it wont sound correct)
Everything programed up fine and i can play music via the aux ipod input, but no noise is coming out when i try the headunit. I dont have the ability to try the RCA inputs.

Any ideas?


----------



## kaigoss69

slpery said:


> OK, just installed all my gear incl MS-8.
> Ive used the OEM headunit's 2 front speaker high level outputs.
> 
> MS-8 outputs:
> CH1 - L High
> CH2 - L Mid
> CH3 - L Low
> CH4 - R High
> CH5 - R Mid
> CH6 - R Low
> No subs installed yet so 7 and 8 not used.
> 
> Now, the signal is getting to the input plug, but no noise is coming out of the MS-8. I still had the rear channels hooked up to the factory speakers (but faded forward initially) so i was able to play the cd to get past initial calibration. (I know it wont sound correct)
> Everything programed up fine and i can play music via the aux ipod input, but no noise is coming out when i try the headunit. I dont have the ability to try the RCA inputs.
> 
> Any ideas?


I don't see how you got the MS-8 to play the sweeps if you do not have an input signal coming in through the hi-level inputs. You should have gotten stuck at the point where it checks the input signal and needs to give you the three "ok"s before you can proceed to the sweeps.


----------



## slpery

It must hear through the headphones, and theoretically it heard it from another source. All i did was fade it from front to back, and it heard the rear speakers playing. I had to turn them up fairly loud though. Once i got passed that 3 ok point, everything else was normal.


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

slpery said:


> OK, just installed all my gear incl MS-8.
> Ive used the OEM headunit's 2 front speaker high level outputs.
> 
> MS-8 outputs:
> CH1 - L High
> CH2 - L Mid
> CH3 - L Low
> CH4 - R High
> CH5 - R Mid
> CH6 - R Low
> No subs installed yet so 7 and 8 not used.
> 
> Now, the signal is getting to the input plug, but no noise is coming out of the MS-8. I still had the rear channels hooked up to the factory speakers (but faded forward initially) so i was able to play the cd to get past initial calibration. (I know it wont sound correct)
> Everything programed up fine and i can play music via the aux ipod input, but no noise is coming out when i try the headunit. I dont have the ability to try the RCA inputs.
> 
> Any ideas?


I assume that you ran the *input setup?* Did you play the CD and watch the MS-8 screen as it checked the Signal, Level, and Balance and did you receive an "OK" next to each one? If not, then you don't have a good signal from the HU to the MS-8.

If you are bypassing a factory amplifier, then it's possible that the HU has a low-level output vs. a speaker level output. If so, and if you have the HU wires connected to a speaker level input on the MS-8, then the signal won't be high enough for the MS-8 to see it. 

A simple solution is to buy some RCA type connectors (or a cheap RCA cable and cut it in half) then connect the RCA's to the HU wires and use the low-level inputs on the MS-8. (I did this in my car, and it worked great.)

What are your plans with the remaining two channels on the MS-8? Are you going to run subs? Any rear fill or center channel planned?


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

kaigoss69 said:


> I don't see how you got the MS-8 to play the sweeps if you do not have an input signal coming in through the hi-level inputs. You should have gotten stuck at the point where it checks the input signal and needs to give you the three "ok"s before you can proceed to the sweeps.


My guess is that he bypassed the Input Setup and went straight into the speaker setup and ran the calibration... just like you would do with an aftermarket HU vs. stock unit in a car.


----------



## slpery

Its a factory headunit with no amp. I can run a speaker directly from the MS-8 input plug.(unplugged of course) (thats how i checked the wires were working)
I put the cd in and it plays.
On the screen it says no signal (theres no noise at all)
I then fade the HU to the rear which is still running off the HU. 
I can now hear the cd playing, and now the MS-8 can also hear it playing...but its not hearing it from the front speakers like it should be doing.
Its making the pink noise left and right over and over.
This then lets me get the 3 ok's, and i can then turn the cd off.
i go thru the rest of the setup, but once finnished, it still wont play anything the HU is playing.

Make sense?


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

Speaking of the MS-8, I was thinking about some things and wondered...

What would be the size of the MS-8 if it were simply a low-level device using RCA's in/out and had no speaker level inputs or internal amplification? 

Would it be possible to have a 'display emulator' (SCADA device) that would take what you would normally see on the small MS-8 screen and convert it to a video output that could be connected to a double DIN HU? 

How hard would it be to take that device and give it the ability to 'gang up' with another MS-8? In other words, if you have a 3-way front setup, a two-way center, two way rears and subs, you would need 13-14 outputs... but the MS-8 only has eight. So if you could run two of them with a common communications/audio bus, it would give you the ability to expand up to 16 channels.

That also made me stop and wonder: How hard would it be to use two MS-8's as they are currently designed? Is it even possible? 

Think about it... let's say that you used the first one to setup the 3-way front L&R channels using 6 of the available 8 channels, and the subs on channels 7 & 8.

Run the crossover setup, the sweeps, etc... you now have two "front" full-range speakers with the subs blended in with them. 

Now connect that MS-8 to the output of the second MS-8 channels 1&2. When you setup the second MS-8, simply tell it that channels 1&2 are full range drivers and that your setup has no subs. Use channels 3 & 4 as the center two way, 5 & 6 as rear left (or rear/side) and 7 & 8 as rear right (or rear/side). 

Will the second MS-8 be able to compensate for the internal 8ms delay that the first MS-8 introduces into the signal path such that the remaining drivers can sync up with the system?

If I had unlimited funds, it might be fun to experiment with a system like that.


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

slpery said:


> Its a factory headunit with no amp. I can run a speaker directly from the MS-8 input plug.(unplugged of course) (thats how i checked the wires were working)
> I put the cd in and it plays.
> On the screen it says no signal (theres no noise at all)
> I then fade the HU to the rear which is still running off the HU.
> I can now hear the cd playing, and now the MS-8 can also hear it playing...but its not hearing it from the front speakers like it should be doing.
> Its making the pink noise left and right over and over.
> This then lets me get the 3 ok's, and i can then turn the cd off.
> i go thru the rest of the setup, but once finnished, it still wont play anything the HU is playing.
> 
> Make sense?


No... unless you have something not hooked up correctly? 

Let me make sure that I understand what you're saying... you can fade the head unit to the front, take the MS-8 speaker level input plug and connect a speaker to input 1 and hear it play sound. Then you move the speaker wires to input 2 and hear sound. I assume that the sounds is relatively loud, just like a stock system would be?

Then you shut the system down, connect the input plug to the MS-8 and run the input setup. You keep the fader all the way to the front channels, cancelling the rears. 

I know that you said that you can hear the rears playing when you center the fader... I wonder if it may be confusing the MS-8 into thinking that the signal/level/balance is okay? Set the volume on the MS-8 to -20 dB, then increase the volume on the HU with the fader full front when running the input setup and see if you can get the MS-8 display to read OK on signal/level/balance. If not, then hit the factory reset and try again.


----------



## nineball

kaigoss69 said:


> I don't see how you got the MS-8 to play the sweeps if you do not have an input signal coming in through the hi-level inputs. You should have gotten stuck at the point where it checks the input signal and needs to give you the three "ok"s before you can proceed to the sweeps.


you don't need an input signal to run the sweeps, they are generated by the ms-8 internally.


----------



## slpery

> Let me make sure that I understand what you're saying... you can fade the head unit to the front, take the MS-8 speaker level input plug and connect a speaker to input 1 and hear it play sound. Then you move the speaker wires to input 2 and hear sound. I assume that the sounds is relatively loud, just like a stock system would be?


correct. Ive run speaker wires from directly behind my HU to the MS-8.




> I know that you said that you can hear the rears playing when you center the fader... I wonder if it may be confusing the MS-8 into thinking that the signal/level/balance is okay? Set the volume on the MS-8 to -20 dB, then increase the volume on the HU with the fader full front when running the input setup and see if you can get the MS-8 display to read OK on signal/level/balance. If not, then hit the factory reset and try again.


how can you set the MS-8 volume if you cant get past the input setup? It asks for the volume setting afterwards.

Ive tried resetting, and ive checked the plugs, and ive pulled more hair out, but to no avail.

Im starting to think the inputs on the MS-8 are stuffed. i have a line level conveter. I will wire that up and see.


----------



## slpery

There was one screen i accidently hit enter on without reading what it said.
Directly after i entered the language and hit enter, I hit enter again, and before i got a chance to read it, it had moved onto input setup. Was that second screen image important? 
And if so, how do i reset right back to the beginning. Right back to language setup. Hitting reset now only takes me back to input setup. Do i have to leave the power disconnected for a certain amount of time?


----------



## JJAZ

Fast Hot Rod said:


> That also made me stop and wonder: How hard would it be to use two MS-8's as they are currently designed? Is it even possible?
> 
> Think about it... let's say that you used the first one to setup the 3-way front L&R channels using 6 of the available 8 channels, and the subs on channels 7 & 8.
> 
> Run the crossover setup, the sweeps, etc... you now have two "front" full-range speakers with the subs blended in with them.
> 
> Now connect that MS-8 to the output of the second MS-8 channels 1&2. When you setup the second MS-8, simply tell it that channels 1&2 are full range drivers and that your setup has no subs. Use channels 3 & 4 as the center two way, 5 & 6 as rear left (or rear/side) and 7 & 8 as rear right (or rear/side).
> 
> Will the second MS-8 be able to compensate for the internal 8ms delay that the first MS-8 introduces into the signal path such that the remaining drivers can sync up with the system?
> 
> If I had unlimited funds, it might be fun to experiment with a system like that.


A more feasible solution would probably be this:
1. Use the first MS-8 as you describe to drive the 3-way front + center.
2. Hook the second MS-8 in parallel with the first, this should take care of the delay (assuming the MS-8 has a fixed 8ms delay) issue.
3. Setup channel 1+2 for front-left + front-right (only for tricking the MS-8).
4. Use 3-8 for subs, sides, rear..


----------



## Bluenote

JJAZ said:


> A more feasible solution would probably be this:
> 1. Use the first MS-8 as you describe to drive the 3-way front + center.
> 2. Hook the second MS-8 in parallel with the first, this should take care of the delay (assuming the MS-8 has a fixed 8ms delay) issue.
> 3. Setup channel 1+2 for front-left + front-right (only for tricking the MS-8).
> 4. Use 3-8 for subs, sides, rear..


^^ I like this concept...but would one be able to view the settings for both MS8's on a single display? Or would you need both displays running?


----------



## slpery

Im having a break-thru. 
question - do you normally hear the pink noise playing at any stage in the setup? 

I was thinking you were supposed to, but after playing around, found that it was "sensing" the signal. Not hearing it through the mic's like i previously thought. 

(a few minutes later...)

anywho... IT'S ALIVE !!!
It took a bit of playing with the volume setting of the MS-8, and now my HU is at half volume and its plenty loud. Damn these HAT speakers dont even move at moderatly loud volume. Time to go thrash my ears. Now where's that MJ cd....


----------



## ousooner2

Hey guys, I just hooked everything up in my car (amps, ms8, built false floor, etc) and everything powered on just fine. My issue is that when I put the MS-8 disc in my car it says "FORMAT" and spits it back out. I'm running the factory nav/head unit in an 04 Acura TL and I know it can read WAV b/c we have DVD-A capabilities and I've made/listened to countless dvd-a's in WAV format. Has anyone heard about this or know the issue possibly? Thanks guys


----------



## slpery

Just had the same issue 2 days ago.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11655918/MLS Setup Track Small.wav

Right click, save this file. Then burn it to disc as an audio track. Its under a minute long, but its all you need.

A lot of the cd's had all the pdf files, but no audio track. Its pretty common.


----------



## Lorin

or (to OUSooner2), just come by the house and use my cd (or I can burn a copy for you).


----------



## ousooner2

Lorin said:


> or (to OUSooner2), just come by the house and use my cd (or I can burn a copy for you).


Thanks Lorin. I burned a copy last night and got it up and running. I posted this, then searched lol. Probably should have searched first, but it was a moment of panic/frustration and I wanted to get the answer quickly. Anyways, ran the calibration but I'm not getting much volume and I'm also getting static when it's turned up about 3/4 and on. Talking to a few people it seems my issue is my calibration volume AND amp gains are too high. The sub can be felt and the calibration noises from the speakers are still decently loud. Results in little to no midbass and no lower end from the sub. Going to try it out again after work before i head home to see if that helps. 

It's just a learning curve and once you figure out the tricks, etc you can start to play with head angles, EQ, controls, etc to dial it in. 

I'll be heading out of town this weekend (I think), but I'll definitely come by and have a listen to the new Morel you picked up sometime soon! Always wanted to hear one. Obviously everything is up and running in my car too and just built my false floor so you can hear and see it also. Hopefully critique my setup and maybe we can dial it in even better


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

JJAZ said:


> A more feasible solution would probably be this:
> 1. Use the first MS-8 as you describe to drive the 3-way front + center.
> 2. Hook the second MS-8 in parallel with the first, this should take care of the delay (assuming the MS-8 has a fixed 8ms delay) issue.
> 3. Setup channel 1+2 for front-left + front-right (only for tricking the MS-8).
> 4. Use 3-8 for subs, sides, rear..


I thought about that, too...

Being connected in parallel, the two processors won't have any reference to each other, only to the source and the position of your head. When performing the sweeps for each MS-8, you would have to duplicate the head position exactly; twice for each seating position... which I find it very difficult and unlikely that a person could do this with much precision.

The front stage won't know what the back stage is doing in relation to time alignment, equalization, reflections, etc... If the second MS-8 wasn't using the front channels, it couldn't sweep them and therefore wouldn't know where the TA for the rears should be set based on speaker position being closer/father away.

I would also think that the Logic7 wouldn't work, as it needs to know all relative speaker positions to set the DSP properly.

Unless you're thinking about something I'm missing?


----------



## psfong

psfong said:


> I have done the mute-processing-off firmware update. However, my priority has changed and would like the mute functionality back. Is there a way to reverse this mod?


Anyone can help?


----------



## fuji6

Hello everybody,

I've been running the MS-8 with the following for about a year in my 09 subaru wrx.

Aurasound 2" whispers (slightly off axis a-pillars)
aurasound ns6-255-4a (factory doors)
2 Dayton HO-10's ported to about 32hz.
Off an HD900.5

Settings: 
Hi/Lo xover 600-750hz (don't remember exactly) 24db
mid sub xover 80hz 24db
subsonic 20hz 12db

Everything sounded really good (to me), with the exception that I lacked the ability to get very loud. I had a pretty good center stage for not putting a lot of work into it. It was a little bit more in front of the driver than dead center, sometimes lacked focus and was on the narrow side. However it was just fine for me how it was. Worlds better than I've had in the past.

Anyways just to play around I threw in my peerless xxls 12 (830517) over the weekend and things went to hell.

First thing I noticed after recalibration is I get way too much upper base from the sub, it's just overpowering. It also sounds a like the timing is off base sounds either out of step of just so overpowering that it's being pulled far to the back of the car. I can't tell which it is... maybe it's both. Oddly enough the single 12 sealed was way more efficient that the 2-10's ported. The enclosure is on the small side 1.1 cubes, perhaps that's just too peaky for the MS-8 to tone down?

Secondly and kind of unexplainable. My image is LOW and far right. Sounds like it's coming from under the glove box. To fix this I think I'm going to sit and tune just mids for a few hours until I get it right. I think maybe I need to adjust my gains, I vaguely recall bumping them up a tiny bit post calibration once it was originally all set. Also remember doing something slightly different with my head during calibration that got my best tune (what it was before this weekend)... but I can't remember.


----------



## creed

I'm planning to retain the factory head-unit with the addition of the MS-8. I do have some questions and hope someone with the MS-8 experience can help me to address some of it. Current factory drivers are quite crappy and I plan to re-use most of my past equipment for the install.

I've two pair of point-source drivers (Morel Oviation Integra to be exact). I plan to use it as following:

1. CH1-2 Front doors
- each door with 1 unit of Oviation Integra (replace the factory 4'' driver)
2. CH3-4 Underseat Woofer/Midbass
- replace the 8'' underseat woofer with better aftermarket type
3. CH5 Center Speaker on the Dashboard
- install 1 new unit of Morel Oviation Integra
4. CH6-7 Rear Panel Speaker
- Replace the 4'' factory driver with better aftermarket type and powered by MS-8
5. CH8 Subwoofer
- A subwoofer in the trunk

Question is on the front stage; the original factory driver came with 4'' midrange at the door panel and 1'' tweeter at the door sill. If I'm replacing it with the Morel Oviation I wouldn't have any tweeter at the door sill, would the stage be too low due to the point-source driver?

With the center speaker and Logic7 turn-on; would the MS-8 be able to help to alleviate the stage height issue?

Appreciate if some advises on what I'm planning to go about


----------



## kaigoss69

^^^ You should be able to get good stage height, assuming you have a BMW where the door mids are high up in the doors. I used 4" widebanders in those locations in a 3-series e90 and had excellent stage height and width.


----------



## creed

Hi kaigoss69,
Yea am driving an E60, the door speaker is at the middle of the door panel so I would say its just few inches above my laps when I sit in, I just hope even with less than ideal location the point-source/coaxial type of speaker or even widebander would be fine, especially with the auto-tune feature of the JBL MS-8 

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## ousooner2

fuji6 said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> I've been running the MS-8 with the following for about a year in my 09 subaru wrx.
> 
> Aurasound 2" whispers (slightly off axis a-pillars)
> aurasound ns6-255-4a (factory doors)
> 2 Dayton HO-10's ported to about 32hz.
> Off an HD900.5
> 
> Settings:
> Hi/Lo xover 600-750hz (don't remember exactly) 24db
> mid sub xover 80hz 24db
> subsonic 20hz 12db
> 
> Everything sounded really good (to me), with the exception that I lacked the ability to get very loud. I had a pretty good center stage for not putting a lot of work into it. It was a little bit more in front of the driver than dead center, sometimes lacked focus and was on the narrow side. However it was just fine for me how it was. Worlds better than I've had in the past.
> 
> Anyways just to play around I threw in my peerless xxls 12 (830517) over the weekend and things went to hell.
> 
> _*First thing I noticed after recalibration is I get way too much upper base from the sub,*_ it's just overpowering. It also sounds a like the timing is off base sounds either out of step of just so overpowering that it's being pulled far to the back of the car. I can't tell which it is... maybe it's both. Oddly enough the single 12 sealed was way more efficient that the 2-10's ported. The enclosure is on the small side 1.1 cubes, perhaps that's just too peaky for the MS-8 to tone down?
> 
> _*Secondly and kind of unexplainable. My image is LOW and far right. Sounds like it's coming from under the glove box. *_To fix this I think I'm going to sit and tune just mids for a few hours until I get it right. I think maybe I need to adjust my gains, I vaguely recall bumping them up a tiny bit post calibration once it was originally all set. Also remember doing something slightly different with my head during calibration that got my best tune (what it was before this weekend)... but I can't remember.



I'm wondering if you swapped the right mid and sub inputs on the MS-8 head unit. Maybe not...but check it.


----------



## ousooner2

*Remote Wire Question*

Hey guys, quick question....

I set the turn-off delay on the MS-8 to 5 seconds, but I'm still getting a slight pop in my sub when I turn the car off. It's exactly 5 seconds after I turn it off too. Here's how I have it wired up, which I think and have been told is correct...


MS8 Remote In:
_ -- remote wire coming from ACC fuse #32 
-- remote wire coming from Fosgate BLD
_
MS8 Remote Out: 
_ -- remote going to ID Q450.4 amp
-- remote going to Audison SR1dk amp_


----------



## BuickGN

I had the problem with too much upper bass from the subs when I had phase issues. Some have also said the MS8 doens't handle high Qtc systems that well. Even in my IB setup I had issues with no low end bass and a hump from 50-80hz. By flipping the phase of my subs everything cleaned up.


----------



## fuji6

ousooner2 said:


> I'm wondering if you swapped the right mid and sub inputs on the MS-8 head unit. Maybe not...but check it.


Ugh I'm such a dumbass... you were very close... swapped the passenger side mid and wide-band. Didn't know because I run my sweeps very quiet and was only doing drivers side.... even then I should have noticed...and known... I need to be more observant... /sigh

So the bad news is I switched back to my old setup before finding this mistake. It'll have to wait till some other time for me to try out my peerless I guess. 

I did notice that after recalibrating with mid and wide-band gains at 2volt (sub gain a tad bit higher, just so it was barely audible), I seem to have a little less punch than before, I may just eq it back in though. 

Question: Since my mids claim 90db efficiency and my wide-bands claim 84. Should I measure with the gains on the wide-bands up a tad bit or just match output? (mids are set to min 2v). I don't think it's a sub issue as I'm not really missing the re-enforcement but the initial attack (I think... still a newb).


----------



## ousooner2

fuji6 said:


> Ugh I'm such a dumbass... you were very close... swapped the passenger side mid and wide-band. Didn't know because I run my sweeps very quiet and was only doing drivers side.... even then I should have noticed...and known... I need to be more observant... /sigh
> 
> So the bad news is I switched back to my old setup before finding this mistake. It'll have to wait till some other time for me to try out my peerless I guess.
> 
> I did notice that after recalibrating with mid and wide-band gains at 2volt (sub gain a tad bit higher, just so it was barely audible), I seem to have a little less punch than before, I may just eq it back in though.
> 
> Question: Since my mids claim 90db efficiency and my wide-bands claim 84. Should I measure with the gains on the wide-bands up a tad bit or just match output? (mids are set to min 2v). I don't think it's a sub issue as I'm not really missing the re-enforcement but the initial attack (I think... still a newb).


Glad you got it figured out! 

That's the nice thing about the MS-8, you can try many different things VERY quickly. I would try both ways you describe (though they're basically the same I believe).


----------



## fuji6

I guess my question then should be. If the posted efficiency numbers are correct, that's a pretty big difference. At the low levels that we measure our sweeps at, do you think the MS-8 is sensitive enough to pick up on the differences and try too hard to boost and cut levels? 
If it is sensitive enough would it stand to reason that I would want to set the wide band drivers a little higher so that the MS-8 does not try to compensate for them (being 6db less efficient) by cutting the sub and mids? Even though when both set at 2v input gain sound about the same.


----------



## ousooner2

Yeah I would just level match them using your ears or an SPL meter, then calibrate on the ms8. Can't hurt, though I'm not sure how well the ms8 handles situations like that


----------



## fuji6

ousooner2 said:


> Yeah I would just level match them using your ears or an SPL meter, then calibrate on the ms8. Can't hurt, though I'm not sure how well the ms8 handles situations like that


Thanks. I'll play around with it and see what happens. That's one thing I don't like about MS-8. It's hard to do an A/B comparison of one setting versus the other.
Though it does a ton of work for you. =)


----------



## fuji6

After listening some more I think I'm lacking attack/authority on snares... So I wouldn't describe it as a lack of punch. I'm not sure how to address that pre-calibration. Suggestions?


----------



## ousooner2

You sure your volume isn't too high during calibration? Try to level match the best you can


----------



## fuji6

Calibrating with mids and wideband gains set to 2v (fully counter clockwise)
Sub just a hair above that (sounds much quieter than mids)

MS-8 set at -45 to -50

I'll get it worked out. Just need to spend some time playing around.

Thanks for all of your help. It's already sounding worlds better.


----------



## ousooner2

ousooner2 said:


> Hey guys, quick question....
> 
> I set the turn-off delay on the MS-8 to 5 seconds, but I'm still getting a slight pop in my sub when I turn the car off. It's exactly 5 seconds after I turn it off too. Here's how I have it wired up, which I think and have been told is correct...
> 
> 
> MS8 Remote In:
> _ -- remote wire coming from ACC fuse #32
> -- remote wire coming from Fosgate BLD
> _
> MS8 Remote Out:
> _ -- remote going to ID Q450.4 amp
> -- remote going to Audison SR1dk amp_


_*
Anyone?? *_





fuji6 said:


> Calibrating with mids and wideband gains set to 2v (fully counter clockwise)
> Sub just a hair above that (sounds much quieter than mids)
> 
> MS-8 set at -45 to -50
> 
> I'll get it worked out. Just need to spend some time playing around.
> 
> Thanks for all of your help. It's already sounding worlds better.


When I calibrated I used -40db and all my gains were maybe 1/16 to 1/10 from fully counterclockwise. That's definitely not 2v on my amps. Closer to about 4 or 3.5v. Not sure what adverse effects that has though..


----------



## fuji6

It's JL 900.5
According to the documentation it's at 2volts. 

I just need to play with level matching pre-calibration me thinks.


----------



## Gid25

Hello! I have read many of the pages and some great info here. I recently go an MS-8. OK here is what I have:

2008 Toyota Avalon

Center- factory 3" (upgrading now, which is the reason for this post).
FR/FL - Focal Polyglass 165 VB (tweeter in Apillar)
SR/SL - Focal Polyglass 165 VB
RR/RL - Factory (will upgrade in a few weeks to 4" focal coaxials)- note: I really like the rear surround sound!)
(2) JL 10W3v3-4 subs in trunk

Powered so far by JL XD600/1 for sub and JL XD600/6 plus MS-8 for rears.
Gonna add a JL HD600/4 in a few weeks and go active on the front.

I just ordered a set of Image Dynamics XS-65. I am thinking of using them for a center channel OR Using them as my fronts instead of the Focal Polyglass and using the focal polyglass as my center.

Now the ID xs-65 is convertible from coaxial to component but the Focals are NOT. I have heard that the ID XS-65 are a little better with smoother tweeters. I don't mind adding an extra cut in my dash to put in a component set if I gain more by using the IDs as my fronts and the Polyglass as my center though. 

SO:
1. Better Center channel: Focal Polyglass 165VB OR Image Dynamics XS-65?

2. For center, if I mount the component Focal Polyglass instead of the IDs should I mount the tweeter directly in front of the 6.5 or beside it? What would be the best way to mount a non coaxial component as my center channel? I have yet to find an example after googling and reading MANY forums.

I have read that the most important speaker is your center speaker but my dash is almost completely made up of plastic so I will have to be carful when I use the dremel. Not sure how much resonance the dash will have?


----------



## 14642

ousooner2 said:


> _*Anyone?? *_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ..


No need to connect REM in to two different sources of turn on signal. Choose EITHER the acc or the remote out of the rockford piece.


----------



## subwoofery

Yay!!!!! Andy's back  

I was waiting for you to come back. Did not mind waiting and did not feel the need to PM... 


subwoofery said:


> Andy,
> I'd like to try a center channel using an AMT driver in my missies car.
> Would like to know which setup would work best with the MS-8.
> 
> Setup will use only 1 channel from MS-8 with passive between the 6" round driver and the AMT. Passive Xover has adjustments for mid (full-range or LP) and for the AMT (Xover point AND slope on the HP).
> 
> A, B, C or D?
> AMT.pdf - Speedy Share - upload your files here
> Red arrow shows the wider dispersion side...
> Feeling says B or C although C and D would probably be perceived as the same thing (high freq attenuation) by the MS-8 mic unless the windshield helps in some way.
> 
> Thank you,
> Kelvin


Thanks Andy, 
Kelvin


----------



## JJAZ

subwoofery said:


> Yay!!!!! Andy's back
> 
> I was waiting for you to come back. Did not mind waiting and did not feel the need to PM...
> 
> 
> Thanks Andy,
> Kelvin


Hmm... That is a mighty good question (and a nice illustration). I think B is the best.. and I think there is a really big difference in C and D, with D being superior to C.

But, honestly, it is guesswork on my part, as I have never toyed with an AMT as centerspeaker. My guesses are based on my acoustic knowledge.


----------



## subwoofery

JJAZ said:


> Hmm... That is a mighty good question (and a nice illustration). I think B is the best.. and I think there is a really big difference in C and D, with D being superior to C.
> 
> But, honestly, it is guesswork on my part, as I have never toyed with an AMT as centerspeaker. My guesses are based on my acoustic knowledge.


That's the thing, I don't know how the MS-8 operates the center channel... 
Does it need to hear reflections off the windshield to properly adjust its timbre? I'm thinking that it doesn't only hear reflections since Andy always recommends tweeters for center channels - something to do with the polar response and spreading the chaos... 

Kelvin


----------



## JJAZ

subwoofery said:


> That's the thing, I don't know how the MS-8 operates the center channel...
> Does it need to hear reflections off the windshield to properly adjust its timbre? I'm thinking that it doesn't only hear reflections since Andy always recommends tweeters for center channels - something to do with the polar response and spreading the chaos...
> 
> Kelvin


Hmm.. I think he recommends tweeters for the center-channel because the MS-8 also tries to correct the response in the top octaves. Thus without a tweeter (or wideband driver) the MS-8 will have difficulties.

In my old install I used a single ScanSpeak 12m as the center channel for the MS-8 and that worked out great. I will do the same in my new car.

I am 99% sure the MS-8 does not discern between direct sound and early reflections, as it is the combination that gives the timbre. Also filtering out a very early windshield reflection is not an easy task for the DSP.


----------



## subwoofery

JJAZ said:


> Hmm.. I think he recommends tweeters for the center-channel because the MS-8 also tries to correct the response in the top octaves. Thus without a tweeter (or wideband driver) the MS-8 will have difficulties.
> 
> In my old install I used a single ScanSpeak 12m as the center channel for the MS-8 and that worked out great. I will do the same in my new car.
> 
> I am 99% sure the MS-8 does not discern between direct sound and early reflections, as it is the combination that gives the timbre. Also filtering out a very early windshield reflection is not an easy task for the DSP.


My guts tells me any config (A,B,C or D) would work but I'd rather use what is considered the best for the MS-8 in order to get the best out of it. 

Kelvin


----------



## 14642

subwoofery said:


> Yay!!!!! Andy's back
> 
> I was waiting for you to come back. Did not mind waiting and did not feel the need to PM...
> 
> 
> Thanks Andy,
> Kelvin


Sorry. Was on vacation. I'd go with C.


----------



## 14642

For the record, MS-8 doesn't distinguish between driver response and reflections. The reflecting surfaces are so close in a car and the arrival time of the direct sound and the reflected sound are so close that it's sufficient to EQ them all at the same time. This is not the case in big rooms and it's why MS-8 DOES EQ at high frequencies and many room EQs do not.


----------



## subwoofery

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sorry. Was on vacation. I'd go with C.


Sweeeet... Thanks Andy. 
C. is also the easiest to build so I'm gonna go with that one  

Kelvin


----------



## htvette

Hi Guys, I'm a noob and just bought a MS-8. Before the MS-8, I was running 3-way active fronts using a PDX-5 with no center channel. 

Previous setup without MS-8 and no center channel
-channels 1/2 for tweeters 
-channels 3/4 for mids 
-channel 5 for the midbass (front left and right was combined)

I plan on using the MS-8 internal amp for the center channel. But for the midbass, can I still keep the previous configuration (combine left and right) without messing with the tuning or do I need seperate channels. If I use seperate channels for midbass, then I would have to power the tweeters using the MS-8. Would 18w be enough for the tweeters? What's the best scenario can I use besides adding another amp? Thanks.


----------



## jbowers

I'd think for best results you'd want to use stereo midbasses, which would still leave you 2 channels to play with for either a coax/passive crossover center and a subwoofer channel, or tweet/mid center and separate sub management. I'd go for the first option personally.


----------



## 14642

jbowers said:


> I'd think for best results you'd want to use stereo midbasses, which would still leave you 2 channels to play with for either a coax/passive crossover center and a subwoofer channel, or tweet/mid center and separate sub management. I'd go for the first option personally.


Right.


----------



## toolsong

Something I've been meaning to do for a long time 

Removed 12 unused wires from the input harness


----------



## creed

Hi guys,
I have the following setup and all items just saw power today on the installation, i couldn't get the build in amplifier to work, there isn't any output from the JBL built-in amp for my rear speaker.

High-Level Input
CH1-2 front HU high-level
CH3-4 rear HU high-level
CH7-8 factory built-in amp high-level 

JBL MS-8 Output
CH1- Left Front Hi
CH2- Right Front Hi
CH3- Left Front Low
CH4- Right Front Low
CH5- Left Side
CH6- Right Side
CH7- Centre
CH8- Sub

I have all channels except CH5 & CH6 connect with RCAs to external amp and all works as expected, I connect CH5 & CH6 on the speaker output to my rear speakers but it doesnt have any output, am i doing it correctly? Is there any specific way i have to tell the MS8 to utilize the built-in amplifier?

Hope u guys can provide some opinions, tired thru the second days of the installation and now cant make the built-in amp to work 

Will continue the test tomorrow

Sent from my XT910 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## creed

Hi Nor*cal,
My installation went thru fine and to be honest the input matching is very important, i did the calibration twice and it was a breeze to get the system to sound nice enough in short timeframe

You have done quite a lot, would swapping some amp channel for the mid be able to isolate the distortion issue further?

I am still scratching my head on the built-in amplifier being silent, just wish it is not the faulty built-in amp, sigh

Sent from my XT910 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Nor*Cal

creed said:


> Hi Nor*cal,
> My installation went thru fine and to be honest the input matching is very important, i did the calibration twice and it was a breeze to get the system to sound nice enough in short timeframe
> 
> You have done quite a lot, would swapping some amp channel for the mid be able to isolate the distortion issue further?
> 
> I am still scratching my head on the built-in amplifier being silent, just wish it is not the faulty built-in amp, sigh
> 
> Sent from my XT910 using Tapatalk 2


Thanks Creed. I just deleted my post because I think I just found a poblem with one of the front tweeter wires that might be causing my issues. I hope so.

I wish I had some feedback for the issue your experiencing but unfortunately I do not. There are some great minds on this forum and hopefully one of them will be able to help you out.

Thanks again for your feedback.


----------



## Nor*Cal

_Well, I deleted my post thinking I might have found a wiring issue but false alarm. I have checked polarity multiple times on all speakers (except the sub) and can confirm that they are all correct and have been correct from the start. I will now try swapping the front mid channels as suggested above by Creed. Here was my original post..._

Long time reader (long before I joined) and now new member hoping for some help. Thanks in advance for your feedback, I'm going a bit crazy as I've been trying to tune my new system for 2 weeks now.

Let me first say that I have read all 300+ pages of this thread and the MS-8 FAQ thread as well. I am having sub bass integration and sound issues but that it not my main concern as some of the work-a-around's have helped a bit.

My issue is distortion at high volume from my front mids and only the front mids (mainly vocals). I'm by no means an expert on these systems and have ran out of troubleshooting options.

Here's the details of my system:

2012 Accord Coupe

- JBL MS-8
- JL Audio XD600/6 (mids and tweets)
- JL Audio XD200/2 (bridged for sub)
- JL Audio C5-650 component set (front doors, active, mids in lower door, tweets in sails)
- JL Audio C5-650 component set (rear deck, passive using 2 of the 6 channels)
- JL Audio 8W3v3-4 single sub in sealed box built under back dash

All wiring is high quality and power ran separate from RCA's and speaker wire. Stock HU with JL Audio RCA's soldered to front left and right HU outputs.

MS-8 set-up

- RCA front left and right input
- Channel 1 = FL Hi
- Channel 2 = FR Hi
- Channel 3 = FL Lo
- Channel 4 = FR Lo
- Channel 5 = SL
- Channel 6 = SR
- Channel 7 = Sub
- Channel 8 = (open)

I would go over the crossover set-up but I have seriously calibrated the system 50+ times using a huge range of crossover points trying to eliminate the distortion from the front mids. I have also tried all sorts of volume configurations from turning the amps up and the MS-8 volume in the -40 and -50 range. I've tried the opposite with the amps turned way down and the MS-8 volume as high as -15. And I've tried just about everything in between.

I also tried adding the passive JL Audio crossovers only to the front mids after calibration to see if the distortion would go away at high volume and it does not. However, if I turn off the processing the distortion goes away and I can turn the volume up louder with no distortion from the mids.

I'm also struggling with my sub getting it to sound good but my main concern right now is my front mid distortion. I have checked and double checked all of my wiring and checked for out of phase mids with a 1.5v battery and confirmed that the polarity is correct to the mids.

I'm very tired and frustrated. I have installed dozens of systems over the years and have never struggled as I have with the MS-8. I do not want to give up because at lower volumes the system sounds pretty amazing but I want the option to turn it up loud and just cannot do so without distorted vocals from the front mids.

I hope I have provided enough information so that the many great minds on this forum could possibly point me in the right direction.

Please help! All tips are appreciated.


_Edit: just to confirm, the ANC (mic) 16pin plug was disconnected from the OEM HU when I wired up the system. The ANC is not causing the distortion problem._


----------



## Grizz Archer

Fort the record, I have not been involved in all of this thread, but I just have to say that the MS-8 is freaking amazing and I will NEVER _not_ have one in my vehicle. I have done amazing thing with mine in a 4-door wrangler which does not lend itself well to easy staging. And in a trip earlier this year, I had a distributor put on in all 5 of the SQ vehicles he was having built buy his customers. It was the EMMA finals and all cars placed or won with my tuning. I HAD NEVER TUNED AN EMMA VEHICLE BEFORE! I swear by them due to the results I have achieved and the super easy use...


----------



## creed

For my case of the built-in amplifier, is there any rules the channel that going to utilize it should stay at specific channels? I went thru the entire manual cant locate anything about this, i utilize all the 8channels but CH5 & CH6 would use the MS8 amp, sounds feasible?

Sent from my XT910 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Grizz Archer

creed said:


> For my case of the built-in amplifier, is there any rules the channel that going to utilize it should stay at specific channels? I went thru the entire manual cant locate anything about this, i utilize all the 8channels but CH5 & CH6 would use the MS8 amp, sounds feasible?
> 
> Sent from my XT910 using Tapatalk 2


Nope, you can do whatever you want. I have seen people run the first 4 channels on the left side and 5-8 on the right side...


----------



## creed

It seems like the worst thing i expected, the built-in amp is faulty, just hope i did something wrong but pretty sure i got it right, sigh

The blessing in disguise would be all RCAs are working fine

Sent from my XT910 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Grizz Archer

creed said:


> It seems like the worst thing i expected, the built-in amp is faulty, just hope i did something wrong but pretty sure i got it right, sigh
> 
> The blessing in disguise would be all RCAs are working fine
> 
> Sent from my XT910 using Tapatalk 2


I have heard of this happening a few times. I have to wonder if there is something weird about using both internal and external power than somehow makes this happen. Ask Andy!


----------



## creed

Already PM him 

Sent from my XT910 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Awdtalon92

Nor*Cal said:


> _Well, I deleted my post thinking I might have found a wiring issue but false alarm. I have checked polarity multiple times on all speakers (except the sub) and can confirm that they are all correct and have been correct from the start. I will now try swapping the front mid channels as suggested above by Creed. Here was my original post..._
> 
> Long time reader (long before I joined) and now new member hoping for some help. Thanks in advance for your feedback, I'm going a bit crazy as I've been trying to tune my new system for 2 weeks now.
> 
> Let me first say that I have read all 300+ pages of this thread and the MS-8 FAQ thread as well. I am having sub bass integration and sound issues but that it not my main concern as some of the work-a-around's have helped a bit.
> 
> My issue is distortion at high volume from my front mids and only the front mids (mainly vocals). I'm by no means an expert on these systems and have ran out of troubleshooting options.
> 
> Here's the details of my system:
> 
> 2012 Accord Coupe
> 
> - JBL MS-8
> - JL Audio XD600/6 (mids and tweets)
> - JL Audio XD200/2 (bridged for sub)
> - JL Audio C5-650 component set (front doors, active, mids in lower door, tweets in sails)
> - JL Audio C5-650 component set (rear deck, passive using 2 of the 6 channels)
> - JL Audio 8W3v3-4 single sub in sealed box built under back dash
> 
> All wiring is high quality and power ran separate from RCA's and speaker wire. Stock HU with JL Audio RCA's soldered to front left and right HU outputs.
> 
> MS-8 set-up
> 
> - RCA front left and right input
> - Channel 1 = FL Hi
> - Channel 2 = FR Hi
> - Channel 3 = FL Lo
> - Channel 4 = FR Lo
> - Channel 5 = SL
> - Channel 6 = SR
> - Channel 7 = Sub
> - Channel 8 = (open)
> 
> I would go over the crossover set-up but I have seriously calibrated the system 50+ times using a huge range of crossover points trying to eliminate the distortion from the front mids. I have also tried all sorts of volume configurations from turning the amps up and the MS-8 volume in the -40 and -50 range. I've tried the opposite with the amps turned way down and the MS-8 volume as high as -15. And I've tried just about everything in between.
> 
> I also tried adding the passive JL Audio crossovers only to the front mids after calibration to see if the distortion would go away at high volume and it does not. However, if I turn off the processing the distortion goes away and I can turn the volume up louder with no distortion from the mids.
> 
> I'm also struggling with my sub getting it to sound good but my main concern right now is my front mid distortion. I have checked and double checked all of my wiring and checked for out of phase mids with a 1.5v battery and confirmed that the polarity is correct to the mids.
> 
> I'm very tired and frustrated. I have installed dozens of systems over the years and have never struggled as I have with the MS-8. I do not want to give up because at lower volumes the system sounds pretty amazing but I want the option to turn it up loud and just cannot do so without distorted vocals from the front mids.
> 
> I hope I have provided enough information so that the many great minds on this forum could possibly point me in the right direction.
> 
> Please help! All tips are appreciated.
> 
> 
> _Edit: just to confirm, the ANC (mic) 16pin plug was disconnected from the OEM HU when I wired up the system. The ANC is not causing the distortion problem._



This us EXACTLY my problem. I have tried everything you mentioned and more. I currently returned the car to stock, as I got sick of the distortion of the vocals. It sounds way better stock, which is so depressing. I am contemplating selling the MS-8 and going with another option.

If you find a solution, please let me know. Feel free to message me to compare notes.


----------



## fuji6

Nor*Cal said:


> _Well, I deleted my post thinking I might have found a wiring issue but false alarm. I have checked polarity multiple times on all speakers (except the sub) and can confirm that they are all correct and have been correct from the start. I will now try swapping the front mid channels as suggested above by Creed. Here was my original post..._
> 
> Long time reader (long before I joined) and now new member hoping for some help. Thanks in advance for your feedback, I'm going a bit crazy as I've been trying to tune my new system for 2 weeks now.
> 
> Let me first say that I have read all 300+ pages of this thread and the MS-8 FAQ thread as well. I am having sub bass integration and sound issues but that it not my main concern as some of the work-a-around's have helped a bit.
> 
> My issue is distortion at high volume from my front mids and only the front mids (mainly vocals). I'm by no means an expert on these systems and have ran out of troubleshooting options.
> 
> Here's the details of my system:
> 
> 2012 Accord Coupe
> 
> - JBL MS-8
> - JL Audio XD600/6 (mids and tweets)
> - JL Audio XD200/2 (bridged for sub)
> - JL Audio C5-650 component set (front doors, active, mids in lower door, tweets in sails)
> - JL Audio C5-650 component set (rear deck, passive using 2 of the 6 channels)
> - JL Audio 8W3v3-4 single sub in sealed box built under back dash
> 
> All wiring is high quality and power ran separate from RCA's and speaker wire. Stock HU with JL Audio RCA's soldered to front left and right HU outputs.
> 
> MS-8 set-up
> 
> - RCA front left and right input
> - Channel 1 = FL Hi
> - Channel 2 = FR Hi
> - Channel 3 = FL Lo
> - Channel 4 = FR Lo
> - Channel 5 = SL
> - Channel 6 = SR
> - Channel 7 = Sub
> - Channel 8 = (open)
> 
> I would go over the crossover set-up but I have seriously calibrated the system 50+ times using a huge range of crossover points trying to eliminate the distortion from the front mids. I have also tried all sorts of volume configurations from turning the amps up and the MS-8 volume in the -40 and -50 range. I've tried the opposite with the amps turned way down and the MS-8 volume as high as -15. And I've tried just about everything in between.
> 
> I also tried adding the passive JL Audio crossovers only to the front mids after calibration to see if the distortion would go away at high volume and it does not. However, if I turn off the processing the distortion goes away and I can turn the volume up louder with no distortion from the mids.
> 
> I'm also struggling with my sub getting it to sound good but my main concern right now is my front mid distortion. I have checked and double checked all of my wiring and checked for out of phase mids with a 1.5v battery and confirmed that the polarity is correct to the mids.
> 
> I'm very tired and frustrated. I have installed dozens of systems over the years and have never struggled as I have with the MS-8. I do not want to give up because at lower volumes the system sounds pretty amazing but I want the option to turn it up loud and just cannot do so without distorted vocals from the front mids.
> 
> I hope I have provided enough information so that the many great minds on this forum could possibly point me in the right direction.
> 
> Please help! All tips are appreciated.
> 
> 
> _Edit: just to confirm, the ANC (mic) 16pin plug was disconnected from the OEM HU when I wired up the system. The ANC is not causing the distortion problem._


Probably reaching at straws here, but I hate it when I get no feedback so here goes.
Have you measured the voltage coming off or your Head unit RCA's? The MS8 if I remember correctly will only take 2volts. Can't remember where I saw it, but at a certain point you would be better off going with the MS-8 speaker level inputs. Sorry if you asked and were already told to go the route you did. 

I have a JL HD series amp. There is a high/low input voltage level setting. If it is on High I get terrible distortion...very static like. Not sure if your series has that switch but if you do make sure it is on low.


----------



## Nor*Cal

Awdtalon92 said:


> This us EXACTLY my problem. I have tried everything you mentioned and more. I currently returned the car to stock, as I got sick of the distortion of the vocals. It sounds way better stock, which is so depressing. I am contemplating selling the MS-8 and going with another option.
> 
> If you find a solution, please let me know. Feel free to message me to compare notes.


I have spent another 4 hours or so playing around with different settings and still cannot solve my issue. It looks like what we are experiencing is common, when I do a search on "MS-8 front mid distortion" google returns lots of forum threads from all types of different car and audio sites. I have read solutions from out of phase speaker through bad JBL headphone mics that we use for the calibration. There are so many people online posting issues and possible solutions that it makes one head spin.

I have never failed in 20 years of installing my own systems and the one I took the most time with making sure everything was perfect is the one that I'm about to give up on. I'm so frustrated with this MS-8 that I feel like taking a sledge hammer to it.



fuji6 said:


> Probably reaching at straws here, but I hate it when I get no feedback so here goes.
> Have you measured the voltage coming off or your Head unit RCA's? The MS8 if I remember correctly will only take 2volts. Can't remember where I saw it, but at a certain point you would be better off going with the MS-8 speaker level inputs. Sorry if you asked and were already told to go the route you did.
> 
> I have a JL HD series amp. There is a high/low input voltage level setting. If it is on High I get terrible distortion...very static like. Not sure if your series has that switch but if you do make sure it is on low.


Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it. I did a lot of reading and research before buying the MS-8 and actually emailed JBL for their opinion on going with the rca's from the factory HU or with the speaker level. They highly recommended that I go with the RCA's. I will however need to measure the output of the HU to see if it is within the voltage range. One of the reasons I have not done this is because I have received feedback from several users who are running an MS-8 with the Honda (Pioneer) factory premium HU. But its worth checking as I'm out of options.

As for the amps, I do have the hi and lo filters but am not using either one. Amps are full range and all crossover functions are being managed by the MS-8.

I'm not one to give up but after several weeks and more hours than I would like to admit to putting into this troubleshooting, I'm close to wits end.

Thanks again for your reply.


----------



## fuji6

Nor*Cal said:


> As for the amps, I do have the hi and lo filters but am not using either one. Amps are full range and all crossover functions are being managed by the MS-8.
> 
> 
> Thanks again for your reply.


No no, the Hi/Lo setting aren't filters. This would be a different setting than your crossovers. It's for telling the amp weather you're expecting high level or low levels of voltages from your RCA's. (In this context I think high would be 6-8 volts... would have to consult the JL amp handbook though to give an exact number.).


----------



## Nor*Cal

fuji6 said:


> No no, the Hi/Lo setting aren't filters. This would be a different setting than your crossovers. It's for telling the amp weather you're expecting high level or low levels of voltages from your RCA's. (In this context I think high would be 6-8 volts... would have to consult the JL amp handbook though to give an exact number.).


The XD line of JL amps do not have this setting. I just double checked to be sure. But thanks again for the feedback, I appreciate the help.


----------



## 14642

Nor Cal.
I'll try to digest all of this tomorrow morning and see if I can steer youj in the right direction. Sorry for the delay. 

Andy


----------



## Nor*Cal

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Nor Cal.
> I'll try to digest all of this tomorrow morning and see if I can steer youj in the right direction. Sorry for the delay.
> 
> Andy


Thank you so much Andy, I know your a busy man and I appreciate any help you can offer.


----------



## creed

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Nor Cal.
> I'll try to digest all of this tomorrow morning and see if I can steer youj in the right direction. Sorry for the delay.
> 
> Andy


Hi Andy, 
Appreciate if you can assist in my problem with the built-in amplifier as well 

Sent from my XT910 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## t3sn4f2

Nor*Cal said:


> However, if I turn off the processing the distortion goes away and I can turn the volume up louder with no distortion from the mids.


This line is key.


----------



## kaigoss69

For those with midbass and sub integration issues, or if you possibly want to make improvements in those areas, read this:

1. Midbass, or lack thereof. I have done a bunch of investigating into this issue, and had correspondence with Andy on how to solve it. I believe we have found a smoking gun and a solution to this problem, at least as it relates to BMWs with the woofers under the seats AND with a trunk sub installed. This "fix" may also solve similar problems in other cars, where the woofers may not be in standard locations and/or enclosures, but it only works for installs with a dedicated midbass AND with trunk subs.

What I have found is that in my car, the midbass response has a nasty spike at around 300Hz. Since those drivers are lowpassed at 160Hz, 24dB/oct, I would have never thought twice about that peak having any effect whatsoever on the calibration results. However, Andy confirmed to me that MS-8 sweeps way beyond the crossover points, in order to be able to sum the channels correctly, and that it will use the loudest frequency it sees during the sweeps to set those levels. So, in my case MS-8 uses the peak at 300Hz to set the levels for a set of drivers that normally only play to 160Hz, so I end up with a severe lack of midbass after the calibration. Normally, this difference in level would be fixed by the processor through EQ, BUT I have a trunk sub installed, and MS-8 simply runs out of steam and cannot make those corrections and leaves the midbass EQ unfinished. This explains why the original "kaigoss" mod works, since the sub is not hooked up to the processor, and MS-8 has enough EQ headroom left to make those corrections in the midbass area.

So, in order to fix the issue, the solution is to block the spike/peak from being picked up by the MS-8 through the use of the amp's built-in low-pass filter. In my case, I set the LP filter on the HD600/4 to 200Hz, 24dB (MS-8 LP is 160Hz, 24dB), so all frequencies above 200Hz will be chopped off, which includes the spike at 300Hz.

This has been proven to greatly improve midbass response in my car as well as 2 others with 3-series BMWs.

2. Sub integration (midbass/sub blending). This has always been a problem in my car. The sub would always sound boomy, and it could be heard as coming from behind the drivers seat. The only things that helped were a) kaigoss mod or b) putting the sub in the back seat for calibration. After a recent exchange with Taibanl on this same issue, he mentioned to me that he got better sub integration when he calibrated with the seats down, and that he thought the sweeps would go into the higher frequencies and that MS-8 would do better if those frequencies were not blocked by the back seat. This makes perfect sense to me, since BMWs are notorious for having well sealed-off trunks. So, either, fold down the rear seats during calibration, or open the ski-pass, or if that is not an option, put the sub in the rear seat. 

I just finished doing that, in combination with the midbass fix above, and it is the best the car ever sounded. I'm even getting a wider front stage, perhaps due to more processing headroom being available, who knows! MS-8 is a wonderful tool, but it in some cases it may require a bit of trickery to use it to its full potential!


----------



## creed

Hi Kaigoss69,
Will definitely try ur calibration method once i got my things all up and running, hope it bring the best out of the MS8, still trying to understand why my MS8 has no speaker level output for my rear 

Sent from my XT910 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## casey

how many people are using the audiocontrol matrix with the ms-8? how significant is the difference vs not using this? is there a processor that works the same way with 8ch? i apologize if this has been covered, i have tried searching without much luck


----------



## 14642

A matrix isn't necessary with MS-8.


----------



## Awdtalon92

t3sn4f2 said:


> This line is key.


Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

In my case I am using the high level inputs. Front left and right on channels 1&2, and sub output on channel 8, both from the factory Bose amp. I do get the OK,OK,OK when calibrating, with MS-8 volume level, from -40 to -10 and steps in between all exhibiting the distorted vocals issue.


----------



## BuickGN

Awdtalon92 said:


> Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?
> 
> In my case I am using the high level inputs. Front left and right on channels 1&2, and sub output on channel 8, both from the factory Bose amp. I do get the OK,OK,OK when calibrating, with MS-8 volume level, from -40 to -10 and steps in between all exhibiting the distorted vocals issue.


Mine used to do that. I solved it by level matching the amps by ear and I had a phase problem. Make sure your mids and tweeters are not out of phase.


----------



## Nor*Cal

Just for the record, I did level match the speakers using a DB meter. I have also tried unplugging everything except the front mids and tweets and still have the same distortion issue at higher volume.

Tonight I will hopefully have time to try and move the mids to 2 different channels on the MS-8 to make sure I do not have defective channels. I will also take the tweeters out of the loop and attempt to calibrate with only the front mids to see if that resolves the issue.

I have checked to make sure everything is wired in the correct polarity and it is but that does not rule out a speaker that is improperly marked from the factory which I know happens now and then. I did change a mid to out of phase to see if it resolved the issue and the results were worse as the distortion was at lower levels than before.

Hopefully Andy will have some time to suggest some possible solutions. I will provide updates as I continue to troubleshoot.


----------



## 14642

There are two things that will cause this distortion every time. 

1. If the midrange channels are identified as front high and the tweeter channels are labeled as front low. I know it sounds ridiculous, but I've done it.

2. If the front is identified as 2-way when it's a component system that uses passive crossovers. 

There is a third:

3. If the MS-8 volume control is left at -20 for listening and the factory volume control is turned up so loud that either it clips or the input of MS-8 is clipped. 

There is a fourth, but it's less common:

4. If the midrange in the front is NOT capable of reaching the tweeter either because the mid is big and way off axis or because it's really a midbass. This may cause MS-8 to boost too much and with the MS-8 volume control near 0dB, there isn't enough digital signal left to accommodate the boost. 

When you hear the distortion, please turn DOWN the factory volume control to see if it goes away. If it does, then see if you can get the level you require by turning MS-8's control up. If it doesn't go away, then turn MS-8's volume control down. If the distortion goes away, check the 31-band EQ to see if you've boosted in the midrange.


----------



## Nor*Cal

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> There are two things that will cause this distortion every time.
> 
> 1. If the midrange channels are identified as front high and the tweeter channels are labeled as front low. I know it sounds ridiculous, but I've done it.
> 
> 2. If the front is identified as 2-way when it's a component system that uses passive crossovers.
> 
> There is a third:
> 
> 3. If the MS-8 volume control is left at -20 for listening and the factory volume control is turned up so loud that either it clips or the input of MS-8 is clipped.
> 
> There is a fourth, but it's less common:
> 
> 4. If the midrange in the front is NOT capable of reaching the tweeter either because the mid is big and way off axis or because it's really a midbass. This may cause MS-8 to boost too much and with the MS-8 volume control near 0dB, there isn't enough digital signal left to accommodate the boost.
> 
> When you hear the distortion, please turn DOWN the factory volume control to see if it goes away. If it does, then see if you can get the level you require by turning MS-8's control up. If it doesn't go away, then turn MS-8's volume control down. If the distortion goes away, check the 31-band EQ to see if you've boosted in the midrange.


Thanks for the feedback Andy. Let me first touch on your feedback and then I will list my latest troubleshooting efforts.

1. Front Hi and Lo channels are correctly assigned to the correct speakers. The mids are set as the Front Lo.

2. I am running my components as 2-way but running the front mids and tweets active and am not using the JBL passive crossover. I did try after calibration to wire only the mids to the passive crossover to see if the distortion would go away and it did not. Only if processing is defeated.

3. After calibration, the MS-8 volume has been turned to -6 per the instructions. I have tried turning it to -10 and turning the amps up a little and also tried -0 with the amps turned all the way down but vocal distortion from the front mids is still present.

4. First let me say that I'm not knowledgeable enough to completely understand the off axis part. I have a basic understanding and do believe that the location of the front mid in the front bottom corner of the door without any angle towards the driver is not ideal. This might be the issue but my accord coupe is not much different than many other sports cars. As for the MS-8 not having enough digital signal, I understand this a bit also from reading the 300+ pages of this thread and the MS-8 FAQ thread. The bottom line with the volume settings is that no matter what I have tried I get distortion at higher listing levels and even at lower listing levels the mids just do not sound crisp and clear. I don't however think I have tried with the MS-8 volume lower than -10.

Also, Logic 7 makes the distortion much worse in all my testing. I don't have a center and rears so I do not plan on using it but it does make the distortion occur at lower sound levels than when its turned off. Not sure if this is useful info.


Update on tonight's troubleshooting.

Went through all RCA's and double and triple checked that they were connected to the correct channels on both the MS-8 and JL amps. Also replaced the RCA for the mids with a new one just in case the RCA was bad in someway. Also checked polarity one last time with a 1.5v battery. I then calibrated and no improvement.

Unhooked everything except the front mids and tweets. Calibrated with only these 4 channels and no improvement (tried several volume settings durring calibrations). No improvement.

I then unhooked the front tweets and tried calibrating only the 2 front mids. A 2 channel set-up with nothing else hooked up. Calibrated the mids as full range and no improvement. Distortion of the vocal at higher volume the same as when I was calibrating with all 7 channels hooked up. But again, distortion goes away when processing is defeated. Moved the mids from MS-8 channels 3 and 4 to channels 1 and 2, re-calibrated and same result.


Not sure what else I can do. I've exhausted my skill set when it comes to troubleshooting this system. I'm so disappointed, I spent so much time on this system, more than any other one I have put together over 20+ years and I just can't get this MS-8 integrated. Sucks!

If it helps, here is the spec for the JL Audio C5 6.5 components that I am running. The rears by the way are the same and they are ran as 1 way with the use of the passive xovers and sound great.

*C5-650: 6.5-inch (165 mm) 2-Way Component Speaker System*
Continuous Power Handling (RMS) 75 W
Peak Music Power 225 W
Recommended RMS Amplifier Power (per Ch.) 25 - 150 W
System Efficiency 89.5 dB @ 1 W / 1 m
System Nominal Impedance 4 Ω
System Frequency Response 48 Hz - 25 KHz ± 3 dB 


Any further suggestions? Andy, if you read this I sure would appreciate some more feedback based on my latest troubleshooting.


----------



## Awdtalon92

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> There are two things that will cause this distortion every time.
> 
> 1. If the midrange channels are identified as front high and the tweeter channels are labeled as front low. I know it sounds ridiculous, but I've done it.
> 
> Wouldn't this have obliterated the tweeters?
> 
> 2. If the front is identified as 2-way when it's a component system that uses passive crossovers.
> 
> Active setup. Channels 1-2, and 3-4.
> 
> There is a third:
> 
> 3. If the MS-8 volume control is left at -20 for listening and the factory volume control is turned up so loud that either it clips or the input of MS-8 is clipped.
> 
> I tried "swapping" volume controls after calibration. Head unit volume low, MS-8 volume high, and vice versa, no change.
> 
> 
> There is a fourth, but it's less common:
> 
> 4. If the midrange in the front is NOT capable of reaching the tweeter either because the mid is big and way off axis or because it's really a midbass. This may cause MS-8 to boost too much and with the MS-8 volume control near 0dB, there isn't enough digital signal left to accommodate the boost.
> 
> When you hear the distortion, please turn DOWN the factory volume control to see if it goes away. If it does, then see if you can get the level you require by turning MS-8's control up. If it doesn't go away, then turn MS-8's volume control down. If the distortion goes away, check the 31-band EQ to see if you've boosted in the midrange.


I am going try to wire the SPX-17PRO passively to test. I am using only the MS-8 onboard amp currently. My original plan was to wire everything on it's own channel temporarily, then build the amp rack and handle sound deadening, then add the amps, as I amp still looking for a match to an old school MTX 4320 that I plan to use for the mids and tweets. The plan went out the window since all my very limited time got swallowed up by recalibrating over and over, changing crossover points, covering tweeters, changing head angles, etc.
Is it possible the mics, or the MS-8 itself are defective? Would posting the "about" info be of any use? Maybe there is a firmware change we could try? I'm sorry for just piggy-backing myself into NORCAL's posts, but he was able to articulate exactly what was happening to me so well. I posted before and the suggestions I got didn't make any changes so I gave up.

One other thing I noticed is that the factory head unit's fan is on all the time. Normally I wouldn't even notice it, but when sitting in the car quietly, it does seem pretty loud. Could this be affecting calibration?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Try using a portable player like an ipod into the aux in to eliminate any possible problems before the MS-8. 

I had mentioned earlier that your defeat processing statement was key because I figure you having a premium head unit were bypassing the OEM amp and tapping into the flat unprocessed balanced signal from the head units itself. So I figured that it had to be something with the ms-8 cal unlike the other things that were being mentioned. 

But now seeing that you are actually running high level out I still thinking this could be the problem. Either from the OEM amp clipping in the sub or front outs, or some type of funky bass DSP effect. The base head unit with only high level outs has a feature like that. There is a thread on here where it was tested to have something funky like that. Thread title is something like "i though factory head units were bad but not like this", sorry don't remember exactly.

Try the AUX input and see. If that cures the problem you know its something with the head unit and you can focus your efforts more on its settings, like the OEM sub out level or something. 

Personally I would bypass the OEM amp with a "Mercman harness". It plugs into the sockets that plugs into the OEM amp in the kicks and gives you an RCA output at the other with some added noise filtering.

Here's a post on it #3, the poster is also on here IIRC.

amp for mercman harness - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum

Hope that helps.


----------



## shamie

Nor*Cal said:


> 2. I am running my components as 2-way but running the front mids and tweets active and am not using the JBL passive crossover. I did try after calibration to wire only the mids to the passive crossover to see if the distortion would go away and it did not. *Only if processing is defeated*.


This is your big clue. As soon as you take the MS-8's processing out of the equation your distortion disappears. It's apparent the MS-8 is trying too hard to (over)process your signal. I’d go down that route as Andy has explained.


Or your MS-8 is defective.


----------



## Driven Audio Tony

I agree, sounds like an overproccessing issue to me to.

Try the iPod in as suggested. or if you want to test it via high-level in, just grab a headunit and wire it into the high level inputs of the MS-8. My guess is the issue goes away.

Sorry if I missed it in the posts, but what Car and factory headunit/system is it?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Driven Audio Tony said:


> I agree, sounds like an overproccessing issue to me to.
> 
> Try the iPod in as suggested. or if you want to test it via high-level in, just grab a headunit and wire it into the high level inputs of the MS-8. My guess is the issue goes away.
> 
> Sorry if I missed it in the posts, but what Car and factory headunit/system is it?


He's running high level from an 8th gen accord with premium headunit and oem amp.


----------



## Nor*Cal

shamie said:


> This is your big clue. As soon as you take the MS-8's processing out of the equation your distortion disappears. It's apparent the MS-8 is trying too hard to (over)process your signal. I’d go down that route as Andy has explained.
> 
> 
> Or your MS-8 is defective.


Thanks for the reply. I guess I'm just not sure what "route" I should be going. I did just recalibrate and left the MS-8 volume much lower after calibration and turned the amps up to compensate and the distortion is noticeably better but still apparent at certain frequencies. I think this does confirm that this is a over-processing issue or as you said a possible defective MS-8. 



Driven Audio Tony said:


> I agree, sounds like an overproccessing issue to me to.
> 
> Try the iPod in as suggested. or if you want to test it via high-level in, just grab a headunit and wire it into the high level inputs of the MS-8. My guess is the issue goes away.
> 
> Sorry if I missed it in the posts, but what Car and factory headunit/system is it?


Thanks, the Ipod suggestion was actually for Awdtalon92 who is having the same issue but he is running high level speaker inputs and I am running a balanced RCA input from the 2 front OEM HU channels. I can however try bypassing the OEM HU if this would be a useful test. I figured with the fact that I do not even need to have my HU on for the calibration sweeps that the HU was not the cause of the problem but I can be way off in my thinking. Hooking up a Ipod would be easy and I will go try that now.

As for the type of car and HU, its a 2012 Honda Accord Coupe with the non-nav premium system. I believe Pioneer is the maker of the HU. The OEM amp is completely bypassed and not even being turned on any longer as I used it's remote power wire for the MS-8. I have also unplugged the ANC mics and RPM connection from the HU so no funny frequencies are attempted to be sent to the OEM amp as originally designed. The 16pin ANC plug is disconnected. The RCA's were soldered to the HU and heat shrink tubing was used.

Here's a pic of my doors and one of my trunk showing how I have everything installed under the rear deck.



















Thanks again for the feedback guys. I'm not ready to give up, put to much work into this system and am determined to figure this out. Please keep the feedback coming.


----------



## subwoofery

Awdtalon92 said:


> I am going try to wire the SPX-17PRO passively to test. I am using only the MS-8 onboard amp currently. My original plan was to wire everything on it's own channel temporarily, then build the amp rack and handle sound deadening, then add the amps, as I amp still looking for a match to an old school MTX 4320 that I plan to use for the mids and tweets. The plan went out the window since all my very limited time got swallowed up by recalibrating over and over, changing crossover points, covering tweeters, changing head angles, etc.
> Is it possible the mics, or the MS-8 itself are defective? Would posting the "about" info be of any use? Maybe there is a firmware change we could try? I'm sorry for just piggy-backing myself into NORCAL's posts, but he was able to articulate exactly what was happening to me so well. I posted before and the suggestions I got didn't make any changes so I gave up.
> 
> One other thing I noticed is that the factory head unit's fan is on all the time. Normally I wouldn't even notice it, but when sitting in the car quietly, it does seem pretty loud. Could this be affecting calibration?


What are your Xover points for your front stage? I see you have mids in doors and tweets up in the As... 
I'm asking coz Andy mentionned this in #4. 

Kelvin


----------



## Awdtalon92

subwoofery said:


> What are your Xover points for your front stage? I see you have mids in doors and tweets up in the As...
> I'm asking coz Andy mentionned this in #4.
> 
> Kelvin


I tried from 3500 to 6000 and many steps in between. 24db. I tried 12db up around 4800 just to see, and the stage height was affected, and the different points definitely sounded different. I was not able to determine what sounded best, because they all distorted.

Yes over processing is what I believe it to be, just not sure how to stop it from doing that.

I already tried using an iPod on the AUX input, But I just realize that I did not recalibrate, so was using the "over processed" signal. Sounded cleaner, but still distorted at higher levels. I will try recalibrateing without using the high level input and use the AUX in.

And sorry to cause confusion. NORCAL's issue is the same as mine, but our setups are different. He is going RCA in, I am going Hi level in from the BOSE amp's outputs on my 2004 Cadillac CTS-V.


----------



## subwoofery

Awdtalon92 said:


> *I tried from 3500 to 6000 and many steps in between. 24db. I tried 12db up around 4800 just to see, and the stage height was affected, and the different points definitely sounded different. I was not able to determine what sounded best, because they all distorted.*
> 
> Yes over processing is what I believe it to be, just not sure how to stop it from doing that.
> 
> I already tried using an iPod on the AUX input, But I just realize that I did not recalibrate, so was using the "over processed" signal. Sounded cleaner, but still distorted at higher levels. I will try recalibrateing without using the high level input and use the AUX in.
> 
> And sorry to cause confusion. NORCAL's issue is the same as mine, but our setups are different. He is going RCA in, I am going Hi level in from the BOSE amp's outputs on my 2004 Cadillac CTS-V.


^ there's your problem... 

Try 2.5kHz @ 24dB point between mid and tweeter... Your mids are beaming around 2kHz-2.5kHz and it seems like the MS-8 is boosting some midrange freqs to meet up with your tweeter. I wouldn't go lower than 2.5kHz for your SPX tweet though (from what I've read) 
See if it helps...

Kelvin


----------



## Awdtalon92

subwoofery said:


> ^ there's your problem...
> 
> Try 2.5kHz @ 24dB point between mid and tweeter... Your mids are beaming around 2kHz-2.5kHz and it seems like the MS-8 is boosting some midrange freqs to meet up with your tweeter. I wouldn't go lower than 2.5kHz for your SPX tweet though (from what I've read)
> See if it helps...
> 
> Kelvin


That's not it. Here is what I did today. I rewired to go passive instead of active.

I completely skipped the input calibration, since I was going to test with Lossless audio files from an Ipod on the AUX input. 

Calibrated at -30 volume, using built in MS-8 amps.

Setup as follows:

Ch1 and 2 : SPX-17PRO passively, HP at 80Hz 24db
Ch5 and 6 : Factory rear door speakers, HP at 100Hz 24db
Ch7: Factory sub, LP at 80Hz 24db, Subsonic at 30Hz 12db

With the volume at a level at what I would call normal speaking volume its sounds pretty good, a little better than stock. Once the volume gets a little higher the tweeters complain LOUDLY. Its a grating distortion coming primarily from the tweeters.

When I turn the processing off, I can go all the way to 00 on the volume with NO DISTORTION. I am frustrated. 

I am going to go through every driver for polarity, again.


----------



## 14642

With the passives in the circuit, try the following adjustments:

Presence control--whatever setting ADDS presence. there's no need to attenuate anything using the passive, especially driven by MS-8's amplifier. 
Off Axis compensation--ON
Phase shift--the two jumpers should be open (no pahse shift).


----------



## subwoofery

Awdtalon92 said:


> That's not it. Here is what I did today. I rewired to go passive instead of active.
> 
> I completely skipped the input calibration, since I was going to test with Lossless audio files from an Ipod on the AUX input.
> 
> Calibrated at -30 volume, using built in MS-8 amps.
> 
> Setup as follows:
> 
> Ch1 and 2 : SPX-17PRO passively, HP at 80Hz 24db
> Ch5 and 6 : Factory rear door speakers, HP at 100Hz 24db
> Ch7: Factory sub, LP at 80Hz 24db, Subsonic at 30Hz 12db
> 
> With the volume at a level at what I would call normal speaking volume its sounds pretty good, a little better than stock. Once the volume gets a little higher the tweeters complain LOUDLY. Its a grating distortion coming primarily from the tweeters.
> 
> When I turn the processing off, I can go all the way to 00 on the volume with NO DISTORTION. I am frustrated.
> 
> I am going to go through every driver for polarity, again.


You just proved that the HU wasn't the culprit. 
Using your passives, are you sure the tweeters are acoustically in phase with the mids? If one tweeter is out of phase *acoustically*, the MS-8 will be trying to boost those missing freqs. 

What do you mean by "primarily from the tweeters"? Do you mean it also comes from the midrange too? If yes, then my advice isn't that wrong, the MS-8 is trying to boost around your Xover point - being active or passive. 

Kelvin


----------



## ousooner2

Would leaving the headset plugged into the ms8 cause distortion?....


----------



## Nor*Cal

I was fortunate enough to talk to Andy over the weekend and received some additional advise in an attempt to resolve my issue. As soon as I have some time to work on my system some more I will report back and try to share some of the info I got from Andy. Great guy to take time out of his Sunday to give me a call. Much appreciated! 




ousooner2 said:


> Would leaving the headset plugged into the ms8 cause distortion?....


I do not believe I have read anyone state that leaving the headset plugged in causes distortion. However, I have read that you should not leave the headset plugged in. It should be disconnected as soon as the calibration is completed. There is a possible correlation with leaving the headset plugged in and the "jet" noise issue that some people have experienced.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Nor*Cal said:


> I do not believe I have read anyone state that leaving the headset plugged in causes distortion. However, I have read that you should not leave the headset plugged in. It should be disconnected as soon as the calibration is completed. There is a possible correlation with leaving the headset plugged in and the "jet" noise issue that some people have experienced.


^this


----------



## Awdtalon92

subwoofery said:


> You just proved that the HU wasn't the culprit.
> Using your passives, are you sure the tweeters are acoustically in phase with the mids? If one tweeter is out of phase *acoustically*, the MS-8 will be trying to boost those missing freqs.
> 
> What do you mean by "primarily from the tweeters"? Do you mean it also comes from the midrange too? If yes, then my advice isn't that wrong, the MS-8 is trying to boost around your Xover point - being active or passive.
> 
> Kelvin


The mids sound fine, so I guess I should have written, "only from the tweeters". Primarily female vocals that cause the most distortion. Male vocals do as well, but no as much. 

I used the JL Audio iPad/iPhone app to test polarity using the speaker pop track from Studio Six Digital it showed the tweets out of phase from the mids, but that is probably the passive xover. Will change the jumper pack to another to check. Also the rears were showing out of phase (from factory?), so I completely eliminated them on my next calibration, only the front mids and tweets, and the sub. No change at all.

I am thinking that the MS8 is just overboosting certain frequencies so much that it is overdriving the tweeter. Is there a way to see what the MS-8 is actually doing? A secret menu or something to see what was boosted or cut to get to the "JBL curve"?


----------



## 14642

To find out what MS-8 is doing to the signal, you can do a couple fo things:

1. To check the input EQ: Set the system up as stereo only front 1-way. Set the subsonic filter to 20 Hz. Use the setup CD, to unEQ the head, finish the calbration with the mic. Then, defeat processing and play a pink noise CD through the head unit. Plug your analyzer into MS-8's output and that will show you the input EQ.

2. To check the output EQ, set up the whole system and calibrate with MS-8's mic. Then, plug the output of your analyzer into the aux input of MS-8. Turn processing off. Send pink noise through MS-8 and measure the output of each channel with the RTA to see the crossovers. Then, turn processing on to see the effect of the EQ AND the crossovers. Save both the processing on and processing off and divide one by the other (or subtract depending on how your analyzer handles post processing) to see only the EQ. IF you want to display time alignment, then you'll need to make impulse response measurements through MS-8.


----------



## rynfarrell

Nor*Cal said:


> I was fortunate enough to talk to Andy over the weekend and received some additional advise in an attempt to resolve my issue. As soon as I have some time to work on my system some more I will report back and try to share some of the info I got from Andy. Great guy to take time out of his Sunday to give me a call. Much appreciated!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not believe I have read anyone state that leaving the headset plugged in causes distortion. However, I have read that you should not leave the headset plugged in. It should be disconnected as soon as the calibration is completed. There is a possible correlation with leaving the headset plugged in and the "jet" noise issue that some people have experienced.


Please let me know if you resolve this issue. I have had the same problem in my GTI. I was able to get it to sound decent by running the setup with my gains all the way down and then adjusting after calibration but it still sounds a bit "off"


----------



## nb023

Looking at buying the MS8

Ive read that the MS8 subwoofer preout is around 2.8V is this correct? If have a line driver thats around 9v outs can I connect it between the h/u & ms8, or between subwoofer amp & ms8? Will this even do anything?

Also can I use a PAC LC1 to control my amps gain with the ms8 & sub amp? It wont cause any harm right?


----------



## 14642

You don't need a line driver.


----------



## oilman

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> You don't need a line driver.


Like Andy said. I tried the line driver for a few reasons. Don't do it, it will screw up the sound. I could go into detail but I won't here, or you can pm me and I'll give you a breakdown. Just don't do it. 


Damn auto correct


----------



## ousooner2

Weird. I have the RF bld and it works perfectly. A line driver is required for this car though as the pre-amp signal is around .5v


----------



## t3sn4f2

ousooner2 said:


> Weird. I have the RF bld and it works perfectly. A line driver is required for this car though as the pre-amp signal is around .5v


That's different though. You're adding gain to meet a input minimum on a processor input that does not have a gain stage of its own. And in an area that is very important to maintain a high S/N ratio. The other poster want to add a line driver after the ms-8's 2.8 volts and add it to a sub amp which can easily have enough gain of it's own it the gain pot to give you what the line will be. Plus there is not need for a possible high voltage to raise above a noisy cable run since the components will likely be mounted close to each other.

A level controller (ie attenuator) would not be a bad idea though, since it's handier then the MS-8 menu. But those can get costly for a quality one and could cause problems if passive. If a sub volume is needed then that is the time I would run a two channel line driver but one with a volume control option.


----------



## ousooner2




----------



## nb023

I have a stock stereo so the outputs might be 0.5v. Its an Audi A5 I'll have to find out.

Also can somebody answer my question about the PAC LC1 gain controller? Will I have any problems using it with the MS8 or should I buy one of more quality?


----------



## rsutton1223

I am new to tuning active setups which was one of the main reasons for getting the MS-8. I feel like I am getting close but there is one hang up that seems to happen to a lot of people and I can't get mine figured out. 

Everything goes fine through the tuning process and the test tones sound strong through the range. However, once everything is setup, midbass from the 6.5" woofers is weak. It is almost like I have to go turn the gain up on the amp just to get the range to fill out on the midbass end. 


Pioneer X930BT
Hertz Tweeters (powered by MS-8) on Channel 1 and Channel 2 (L Hi and R Hi)
Tang Band Bamboo 3" (powered by MS-8) on Channel 3 and Channel 4 (L Mid and R Mid)
Hertz 165XL 6.5" Woofers in Doors (powered by Hertz HDP4 amp) on Channel 5 and Channel 6
10" JLW3 in sealed box in hatch (powered by bridged channels on HDP4 amp) on Channel 7

I have searched through the thread and can't really find exactly what I need to do for this setup. Any suggestions on setup that could fix this issue?

UPDATE: I tried the LP filter at 200hz for the sub during the calibration process and that has helped some.


----------



## jbowers

From what I've read, it seems like one of two things. Either the overal levels are too high and the MS-8 is running out of processing steam with the amount of EQ being done, or you have a crossover overlap between the sub and midbasses that's causing a peak in the midbass that it's trying to eq out. Try lowering the subwoofer LP to 80 or below, or even running it without the sub in play to see if that rules out this issue. Possibly your midbass amp is set to too high of a level and it's overtaming it.


----------



## rsutton1223

jbowers said:


> From what I've read, it seems like one of two things. Either the overal levels are too high and the MS-8 is running out of processing steam with the amount of EQ being done, or you have a crossover overlap between the sub and midbasses that's causing a peak in the midbass that it's trying to eq out. Try lowering the subwoofer LP to 80 or below, or even running it without the sub in play to see if that rules out this issue. Possibly your midbass amp is set to too high of a level and it's overtaming it.


The MS-8 filter is set at 80 but I set the LP on the amp at 200. I was reading somewhere that the test signals run up to 300 no matter where you have the crossover point set, so it picks up loud, higher hertz from the sub during that process and tries to over compensate. 

I didn't know if you meant 80 during the setup process or on the amp which is why I am clarifying.


----------



## jbowers

On the amp. What I'm trying to see is if the subs themselves are playing up into the midbass range, which is making the MS-8 try to EQ out. Maybe before making the next pass just unplug the sub amp rcas to see if that's a factor in your midbass dip.


----------



## slpery

All my gains on my amps are about halfway. When tuning though, i turned my sub amp gain up to about 3/4. Tuned it like normal, then turned the gain back down. Seemed to work well.


----------



## jbowers

Keep in mind the gain knob on your amp only adjusts the input sensitivity. It won't take into account the sensitivity of your speakers, so if your midbasses are super efficient you could be getting a response peak that doesn't correlate with the gain knob relative to the other amps. If you pick up a cheap spl meter and burn a pink noise cd you can easily level match your speakers using the gain control, this means the MS-8 isn't trying to do an insane amount of EQ to do it for you.


----------



## xdrixn

First let me preface my question/s by saying I have read the manual and made very good use of the search engine but I'm still not clear what I am missing

so I have had a p99rs for about 5 months and I have spent a good chunk of time tuning. I got it sound pretty good on a number of occasion but of course as we all know it's never good enough. Anyway, my wife's cousin was kind enough to lend me his ms-8 while he was on vacation and he's also considering selling it and since I had a spare output on my distribution block it was a very easy install. SO I have only used #1 & #2 inputs on said ms-8 while trying the highs, mids and lows rcas from the hu. Each time I have heard the sweeps from each pair of speakers but when it's complete I only hear music from whatever pair of speakers I have plugged into in inputs #1 & #2. I am unclear what I am doing wrong?

thank you gentleman


----------



## jerrychrist

Hey everyone, first post here but been reading for a while.

So I've gone thru most of the pages on this thread, but could have easily missed something.

I have a 2011 Challenger with the "upgraded" BA sound system.

I replaced my fronts with JL c650s (mids in doors tweets in dash, i know some people say this isn't the best, but these are the stock locations and the only ones i'm willing to do). These are powered with the JL XD 200/2.

I also have an in trunk sub, a single 12" infinity reference powered by RF Prime 500 mono.

I plan on eventually adding more speakers or using the stock ones (center and rear), but want to nail down this problem first.

Also, I believe the signal goes from my HU>OEM amp>MS8>after market amps>speakers, and for whatever reason the installer put my sub on channel 3 and 4 in case that matters.

As many on here, my main problem is with the mids, mostly midbass. I think the soundstage and timing is right on, at least as far as I can tell.

I did not do the install and am no good with anything like that, I can run thru calibration over and over, but other than adjusting gain on the amps I can't do any of the tricks like connecting the sub to the fronts or any of that stuff. Please think of calibration specific things to try before changing something physically.

I usually run the calibration somewhere between -40 and -30 and gains pretty low. Everything is about conversation level on sweeps (light static on diagnostic, can't hear the sub at all during diag, but can during sweep).

I have tried many different xover points, from about 70-120 and all different slopes. I have the rest of the signal as 1-way fronts to the passive xovers that came with the c5-650s.

The way I get the BEST results (the only results that sound sort of good, not great but not awful) is BEFORE calibration on my HU I turn mids almost all the way down, bass up and treb up even higher. as soon as calibration is finished I set all these back to flat. with this I can actually get some midbass. from here I crank 80-250hz up about 7db and there is some coming from the front.

If I have all EQ set flat before calibration I get ZERO midbass, it doesn't matter what xover, slope, or relative gains (between sub and mids/highs).

Anyone else have to do this, setting EQ before calibration? Does me having to do this give anyone an idea of what might be causing my problems?

Any checks or tests that have to do with opening door panels, changing wires, or anything like this requires that I go to an audio person, and I've already thrown so much money at this thing I'd like to get it worked out.

I certainly get this is not the laymans processor it was billed as, but I don't want to give up on it yet as so many have had great results.


----------



## rcurley55

xdrixn said:


> First let me preface my question/s by saying I have read the manual and made very good use of the search engine but I'm still not clear what I am missing
> 
> so I have had a p99rs for about 5 months and I have spent a good chunk of time tuning. I got it sound pretty good on a number of occasion but of course as we all know it's never good enough. Anyway, my wife's cousin was kind enough to lend me his ms-8 while he was on vacation and he's also considering selling it and since I had a spare output on my distribution block it was a very easy install. SO I have only used #1 & #2 inputs on said ms-8 while trying the highs, mids and lows rcas from the hu. Each time I have heard the sweeps from each pair of speakers but when it's complete I only hear music from whatever pair of speakers I have plugged into in inputs #1 & #2. I am unclear what I am doing wrong?
> 
> thank you gentleman


Sweeps are generated by the MS-8. As such, sweeps will play through all assigned channels regardless of what input you provide the MS-8

My guess is that you are not providing the MS-8 with a full range signal from inputs 1 and 2. Further, you can't plug speakers into inputs 1 and 2 - so I'm assuming that is a typo.


----------



## xdrixn

I'm pretty sure I did turn the crossovers to pass first but I'm going to run it again to be sure, thanks.


----------



## nineball

xdrixn said:


> First let me preface my question/s by saying I have read the manual and made very good use of the search engine but I'm still not clear what I am missing
> 
> so I have had a p99rs for about 5 months and I have spent a good chunk of time tuning. I got it sound pretty good on a number of occasion but of course as we all know it's never good enough. Anyway, my wife's cousin was kind enough to lend me his ms-8 while he was on vacation and he's also considering selling it and since I had a spare output on my distribution block it was a very easy install. SO I have only used #1 & #2 inputs on said ms-8 while trying the highs, mids and lows rcas from the hu. Each time I have heard the sweeps from each pair of speakers but when it's complete I only hear music from whatever pair of speakers I have plugged into in inputs #1 & #2. I am unclear what I am doing wrong?
> 
> thank you gentleman



make sure you are actually using inputs 1 & 2, not 1 & 5. this is a common mistake with the ms-8 as the inputs are set up like this:

1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8

not like most car audio items which are like this:

1 3 5 7
2 4 6 8


----------



## xdrixn

yeah got that the 1st time thank you though. I must have not turned all the crossovers...I managed to complete it and hear some tunes. TA certainly better...sound may take some getting used to...


----------



## Labrador

nb023 said:


> I have a stock stereo so the outputs might be 0.5v. Its an Audi A5 I'll have to find out.
> 
> Also can somebody answer my question about the PAC LC1 gain controller? Will I have any problems using it with the MS8 or should I buy one of more quality?


Hey,
Look for someone who owns a VCDS VAG-Com Diagnostic Interface. Set your Audi headunit to "Soundsystem". This will provide the speaker-outs with enough voltage to go directly to the RCA inputs of the MS8. 

I did the same with my Volkswagen RNS315 and it works fine now. Even the automatic setup with the MS8-CD is now running as it should.

If you do not recode your headunit, you might encounter the problem, that the MS8 will not recognize the setuptrack.


----------



## oilman

I tried the PAC too and it didn't work for me. The only way I could get good continuity between my stock HU and the ms8 was by using the HO wires. 


Damn auto correct


----------



## t3sn4f2

oilman said:


> I tried the PAC too and it didn't work for me. The only way I could get good continuity between my stock HU and the ms8 was by using the HO wires.
> 
> 
> Damn auto correct


That PAC device is not a line driver, all it does is passively reduce the level from where it is.

Also for the other post above, would recoding the head unit to a higher speaker level output not engage the internal speaker amp? That should sound fine but maybe there is also an undesirable EQ added and clipping at higher volumes regardless of volume setting. Could work but if not a good line driver might be the better option.


----------



## willtel

xdrixn said:


> yeah got that the 1st time thank you though. I must have not turned all the crossovers...I managed to complete it and hear some tunes. TA certainly better...sound may take some getting used to...


Can you describe what you did on your P99RS to get a full range signal out of two outputs? 

I'm also using one with an MS-8 and I didn't think that was possible.


----------



## xdrixn

willtel said:


> Can you describe what you did on your P99RS to get a full range signal out of two outputs?
> 
> I'm also using one with an MS-8 and I didn't think that was possible.


I set all crossovers to pass.


----------



## BuickGN

A possible solution for the dead/dull/lifeless/sounds pretty good but you can't quite put your finger on it problems.....assuming everything is acoustically in phase...

This is what I do with my 3-way setup that works very well. I turn the sub amp most of the way down for calibration as always. I level match everything else by ear but leave plenty of headroom on the midbass amp gain.

I calibrate at a very low MS8 volume, usually -60 to -62. You can't go too low or the time alignment doesn't work but I calibrate just high enough that the TA is good but you can barely hear it. I don't know if calibrating at super low volumes means it uses less filters or different filters, maybe due to less reflections but the music really comes alive. Midrange and the high end as well as the subs are usually great but I usually have to crank up the gains on the midbass to get it balanced. I really like the way it sounds like this. 

My guess and it's only a guess is that some of the filters that are applied to take care of reflections and such change the sound in a way that no amount of eq can ever fix. The only way I can describe the calibration at very low volumes is it has more of a "traditional" sound. More dynamic and live sounding, less dull sounding. Before I could eq it and turn the power up to the midbass or midrange to where there's a lot of excursion happening yet it's still not dynamic which doesn't make sense but that's how it was. This way with less excursion the music sounds more dynamic. It's very possible this is just a result of my particular car and my particular install but it might be worth a try for some people.


----------



## 14642

certainly in order to energize modes, there has to be suffucuent energy. GN's suggestion has merit.


----------



## Bluenote

BuickGN said:


> A possible solution for the dead/dull/lifeless/sounds pretty good but you can't quite put your finger on it problems.....assuming everything is acoustically in phase...
> 
> This is what I do with my 3-way setup that works very well. I turn the sub amp most of the way down for calibration as always. I level match everything else by ear but leave plenty of headroom on the midbass amp gain.
> 
> I calibrate at a very low MS8 volume, usually -60 to -62. You can't go too low or the time alignment doesn't work but I calibrate just high enough that the TA is good but you can barely hear it. I don't know if calibrating at super low volumes means it uses less filters or different filters, maybe due to less reflections but the music really comes alive. Midrange and the high end as well as the subs are usually great but I usually have to crank up the gains on the midbass to get it balanced. I really like the way it sounds like this.
> 
> My guess and it's only a guess is that some of the filters that are applied to take care of reflections and such change the sound in a way that no amount of eq can ever fix. The only way I can describe the calibration at very low volumes is it has more of a "traditional" sound. More dynamic and live sounding, less dull sounding. Before I could eq it and turn the power up to the midbass or midrange to where there's a lot of excursion happening yet it's still not dynamic which doesn't make sense but that's how it was. This way with less excursion the music sounds more dynamic. It's very possible this is just a result of my particular car and my particular install but it might be worth a try for some people.


GN,

Thanks for the suggestion! I've never attempted to calibrate below 45...this is fairly applicable for me since we both have the same amp topologies. I'll give it a shot...and thank's Andy W., for validating the suggestion.


----------



## Mindcrime

Ok, so My head is spinning from all the reading I have been doing! I am stuck on what should be a very simple thing. 

I have an MS8, my plan is to run an active 2 way front stage, and possibly a center ch. with a pair of 10's. Or the alternative is 3 way with no center. 

I have some old school (nib) Monitor 1 amps i was considering using. My question is this , would I be better off running these old school 2 ch amps ( 4 of them ) or would I be better off getting a couple of new 4 ch amps and call it a day? 

I have access to some nib Arc Audio XXD5080 5 ch amps as well.

I guess what I am after is some help with the best configuration, to get the most out of the MS8

Thanks in advance

Dom


----------



## nineball

Mindcrime said:


> Ok, so My head is spinning from all the reading I have been doing! I am stuck on what should be a very simple thing.
> 
> I have an MS8, my plan is to run an active 2 way front stage, and possibly a center ch. with a pair of 10's. Or the alternative is 3 way with no center.
> 
> I have some old school (nib) Monitor 1 amps i was considering using. My question is this , would I be better off running these old school 2 ch amps ( 4 of them ) or would I be better off getting a couple of new 4 ch amps and call it a day?
> 
> I have access to some nib Arc Audio XXD5080 5 ch amps as well.
> 
> I guess what I am after is some help with the best configuration, to get the most out of the MS8
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Dom



the ms-8 doesn't really care what you run for amps or speakers  since you have a set of amps available why not use them? if you don't like the results you can always buy something else to try.

you could run a 3-way front, center and sub. from what most have said it's better to have something in the back/side, so maybe a 2 way front, rears, center and sub. either way the center channel should be on par, both performance and power, with your front stage.


----------



## Mindcrime

nineball said:


> the ms-8 doesn't really care what you run for amps or speakers  since you have a set of amps available why not use them? if you don't like the results you can always buy something else to try.
> 
> you could run a 3-way front, center and sub. from what most have said it's better to have something in the back/side, so maybe a 2 way front, rears, center and sub. either way the center channel should be on par, both performance and power, with your front stage.


So if I go with a 2 way front stage...

1 Amp for 6.5
1 Amp for tweeters
1 Amp for rear fill
That leaves me one set of outputs for sub and center, this is where I am confused... Do I use 1 single output for the sub, and one for the center?


----------



## Bluenote

Bluenote said:


> GN,
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion! I've never attempted to calibrate below 45...this is fairly applicable for me since we both have the same amp topologies. I'll give it a shot...and thank's Andy W., for validating the suggestion.


the 60's were too low for my set-up and would'nt pick up the sub for some reason...I did find that the lower calibration levels were good with picking up the high frequencies enhancing the details and dynamics...I had to bump back to the 40's - (42-43) that is the sweet spot in my vehicle - but nice to try another option to maximize the potential.


----------



## subwoofery

Bluenote said:


> the 60's were too low for my set-up and would'nt pick up the sub for some reason...I did find that the lower calibration levels were good with picking up the high frequencies enhancing the details and dynamics...I had to bump back to the 40's - (42-43) that is the sweet spot in my vehicle - but nice to try another option to maximize the potential.


Why not leave it @ -60 and up the subwoofer gain? 

Kelvin


----------



## toolsong

Mindcrime said:


> That leaves me one set of outputs for sub and center, this is where I am confused... Do I use 1 single output for the sub, and one for the center?


Yes, they are mono and only require one MS-8 output channel each.

Also for your 'rear fill', I use a pair of the MS-8's internal amplifier channels to power the rears. They don't need a lot of power.

Doing that would mean you could bridge one of your amps to each 6.5


----------



## Mindcrime

toolsong said:


> Yes, they are mono and only require one MS-8 output channel each.
> 
> Also for your 'rear fill', I use a pair of the MS-8's internal amplifier channels to power the rears. They don't need a lot of power.
> 
> Doing that would mean you could bridge one of your amps to each 6.5


Thank You!


----------



## nineball

Mindcrime said:


> So if I go with a 2 way front stage...
> 
> 1 Amp for 6.5
> 1 Amp for tweeters
> 1 Amp for rear fill
> That leaves me one set of outputs for sub and center, this is where I am confused... Do I use 1 single output for the sub, and one for the center?


yep. both your subs run off one channel and you can use a coax or half a comp set with a passive crossover for the center channel.


----------



## willtel

xdrixn said:


> I set all crossovers to pass.


Thank you! I reset mine today and things are much simpler now. It seems to have helped with a few issues I was having.


----------



## mooch91

Just got my MS-8 today; all set up and loving the way it sounds so far (although I haven't listened to it much).

One problem I've got that I heard...

Playing Norah Jones "Sunrise" at moderate volume. When she first hits the chorus with the "Sunrise, sunrise" lyric, my right front channel shrieks! Sounds like the tweeter. Didn't do it before the MS-8 and doesn't do it when I lower the volume. I haven't heard it with any other tracks yet.

I'm running a Kenwood HU, Pioneer TSC720PRS passive for the front, and a sub.

I've recalibrated a few times, at a few different volume levels; same result.

Any thoughts? This was a refurb unit if it makes any difference.


----------



## nsxt99

i have 2 MS8 with me, it sounds great but not the staging. Looking for Andy's help now


----------



## BuickGN

I have a couple things to report. 

I decided to go back to the basics based on several of Andy's suggestions. I made sure every driver was in an optimal range as far as dispersion and excursion. The sub to midbass point is 60hz/24db. This means little excursion for the 10" midbass. The midbass to midrange at 350hz/24db which again means very low excursion for the 3.5" midrange and the 10" will have excellent dispersion. The big change I made is lowering the tweeter point from 6-8khz to a more reasonable 4khz where the midrange is just beginning to narrow up a little but not into beaming and not where they're -8db down even on axis.

I had excellent luck with very high crossover points in the past with the MS8 but I was also having unknown at the time phase issues. I never went back and tried "normal" crossover points until now. The front stage is the best its ever been. In fact, I did no adjusting after calibration which is a first for me. It sounds good on every type of music, no adjustments needed from one type of music to the other. It's everything you could want, clear, detailed, but not harsh at all. The midbass has great snap but the oddball thing is it does not vibrate my side view mirrors as bad even though the percieved level is just as high as before. I think this is because of something unique I tried on the subs this time.

I remember Andy suggesting it a while back... My subs have very low inductance and play into the midrange easily. In fact, I've noticed with the previous 50hz/24db filter there was a lot of 80hz material getting through. This time before calibration I set the amp's filter at around 80hz/24db. I also turned the amp's gain way down as I usually do to get more sub bass. Adding the filter worked wonders. Usually I turn the sub amp up after calibration. This time totally not necessary. The subs are powerful but not overbearing. Almost too much but balanced, no peakiness. I have the sub level centered and the overall bass level down a couple notches from center.

I tried lowering the filter on the amp from 80hz down to the 60hz highpass of the MS8 but it took away a lot of the snap that I thought was coming from the midbass. I set the filter back to 80hz and the snap and impact came back. There is absolutely no indication that the snap is coming from the subs and not the midbass. Adding the filter during the calibration process cured any and all sub to midbass integration issues. The only thing I might change next time is to calibrate with the sub gain a little higher. Right now it's all the way down.

The whole system really sounds like its capable of producing the entire 20hz-20khz range evenly now. I put on some dubstep after I had listened to a few SQ cds and the bass actually popped the center channel grill out of the dash. I've never had that happen before and it did so while playing cleanly and without drowning out the front stage on a 28hz note.


----------



## Bluenote

That's a great report GN! I'd love to hear your Dyn/MS8 set up. Has your center channel drastically improved with the 650/102 set up?


----------



## Mindcrime

Hey Gang,
I have a quick question, I am building a new system using an MS8, I was going to use old school amps but have decided against that.... my question is what amp configuration would work best (2, 4ch amps, 1 5 ch and 4ch, etc.)

this is what I will be running
active 2 way front.
center.
rear fill
2 10" subs

I am lost with how to pull this off, I know there are several options, I am just looking for some opinions.


----------



## toolsong

For that setup I think along these lines:

2 small channels for the tweeters
3 big channels for the mids plus the center (which should be the same size)
1 or 2 channels for the subs
and run the rears from the MS-8.

Without having to find staggered power amps, an approach which may give you more choice is to take 8 normal channels and bridge 6 of them to give you 2 small and 3 large ones.

An example using two JL HD900/5's:

Channel 1 - Tw L
Channel 2 - Tw R
Channel 3 - Bridged Mid L
Channel 4 - Bridged Mid L
Channel 5 - Sub 1

Channel 1 - Bridged Center
Channel 2 - Bridged Center
Channel 3 - Bridged Mid R
Channel 4 - Bridged Mid R
Channel 5 - Sub 2

Which gives 2 x 75, 3 x 150 and 2 x 500 W RMS at 4 ohms.

One JL-RLC can control the sub channel on both amps; a sub knob is essential for me 

For even more bridged power you could run two HD600/4 and one HD750/1.

* I don't run JL HD, just easy for configuration examples


----------



## BuickGN

Bluenote said:


> That's a great report GN! I'd love to hear your Dyn/MS8 set up. Has your center channel drastically improved with the 650/102 set up?


I got a bit ahead of myself with my signature. I ended up selling the 650 after holding them up to the center dash location. Diameter was no problem but until the dash or AC ducting has to come out for another reason, I'm never going to be able to squeeze something that deep in there. If my dash cracks as many of the TL's dashes are starting to do I will most definitely put something large and badass in there. Probably an 8" and a good tweeter.


----------



## Bluenote

BuickGN said:


> I got a bit ahead of myself with my signature. I ended up selling the 650 after holding them up to the center dash location. Diameter was no problem but until the dash or AC ducting has to come out for another reason, I'm never going to be able to squeeze something that deep in there. If my dash cracks as many of the TL's dashes are starting to do I will most definitely put something large and badass in there. Probably an 8" and a good tweeter.


GN that's funny to me...I swear we think alike! I've been mulling putting an 8" in my center too...I too have an AC duct dead center of the dash...I would have to get very creative to even put a 6.5 in there depth wise but I Am determined to upgrade from my coax in there now...I've got it passed at 100hz and I can still hear some distortion...but overall it really adds a nice finishing touch to the set-up.


----------



## 14642

Guys, no need for an 8" in the center channel unless you're going to do a 3-way with a small midrange too. The 8" will NEVER reach the tweeter and tuning will be a nightmare because you'll have a big hole in the off-axis response between the mid and tweeter but not in the reflection off the glass. 

Please...do yourselves a favor and heed this advice.


----------



## rcurley55

Mindcrime said:


> Hey Gang,
> I have a quick question, I am building a new system using an MS8, I was going to use old school amps but have decided against that.... my question is what amp configuration would work best (2, 4ch amps, 1 5 ch and 4ch, etc.)
> 
> this is what I will be running
> active 2 way front.
> center.
> rear fill
> 2 10" subs
> 
> I am lost with how to pull this off, I know there are several options, I am just looking for some opinions.


JL HD600/4 and HD900/5
150 x 5 + 100 x 2 + 500 x 1


----------



## Labrador

t3sn4f2 said:


> That PAC device is not a line driver, all it does is passively reduce the level from where it is.
> 
> Also for the other post above, would recoding the head unit to a higher speaker level output not engage the internal speaker amp? That should sound fine but maybe there is also an undesirable EQ added and clipping at higher volumes regardless of volume setting. Could work but if not a good line driver might be the better option.



My first setup included a Helix AAC high-low converter and signal input at the rca-ins of the MS-8. I did that because the MS-8 did not regognize the setup track from my Volkswagen headunit (the Audi-syndrome with "signal low" up to volume level 13 and "no signal" afterwards).
This is because the Volkswagen and Audi headunits start to clip certain frequencies at higher volume to prevent the factory speakers from getting blown out of the doors.
When you recode the headunit to soundsystem, you automatically deactivate the clipping and you get much better output signal. You can then connect the headunit directly to the rca-ins without any converters. The setup track works then. I my case, I had to use a ground loop isolator to kill a humming noise, nevertheless.
For example, my MS-8 ist set to -10db and when I turn volume of my headunit to 18+, I get really good volume levels without any distortion or clipping noises.


----------



## 14642

Labrador said:


> My first setup included a Helix AAC high-low converter and signal input at the rca-ins of the MS-8. I did that because the MS-8 did not regognize the setup track from my Volkswagen headunit (the Audi-syndrome with "signal low" up to volume level 13 and "no signal" afterwards).
> This is because the Volkswagen and Audi headunits start to clip certain frequencies at higher volume to prevent the factory speakers from getting blown out of the doors.
> When you recode the headunit to soundsystem, you automatically deactivate the clipping and you get much better output signal. You can then connect the headunit directly to the rca-ins without any converters. The setup track works then. I my case, I had to use a ground loop isolator to kill a humming noise, nevertheless.
> For example, my MS-8 ist set to -10db and when I turn volume of my headunit to 18+, I get really good volume levels without any distortion or clipping noises.


 
Hey, this is really good and really helpful information. would you do me a big favor and tell me the year and model of your car and which audio system was fitted at the factory?


----------



## jerrychrist

jerrychrist said:


> Hey everyone, first post here but been reading for a while.
> 
> So I've gone thru most of the pages on this thread, but could have easily missed something.
> 
> I have a 2011 Challenger with the "upgraded" BA sound system.
> 
> I replaced my fronts with JL c650s (mids in doors tweets in dash, i know some people say this isn't the best, but these are the stock locations and the only ones i'm willing to do). These are powered with the JL XD 200/2.
> 
> I also have an in trunk sub, a single 12" infinity reference powered by RF Prime 500 mono.
> 
> I plan on eventually adding more speakers or using the stock ones (center and rear), but want to nail down this problem first.
> 
> Also, I believe the signal goes from my HU>OEM amp>MS8>after market amps>speakers, and for whatever reason the installer put my sub on channel 3 and 4 in case that matters.
> 
> As many on here, my main problem is with the mids, mostly midbass. I think the soundstage and timing is right on, at least as far as I can tell.
> 
> I did not do the install and am no good with anything like that, I can run thru calibration over and over, but other than adjusting gain on the amps I can't do any of the tricks like connecting the sub to the fronts or any of that stuff. Please think of calibration specific things to try before changing something physically.
> 
> I usually run the calibration somewhere between -40 and -30 and gains pretty low. Everything is about conversation level on sweeps (light static on diagnostic, can't hear the sub at all during diag, but can during sweep).
> 
> I have tried many different xover points, from about 70-120 and all different slopes. I have the rest of the signal as 1-way fronts to the passive xovers that came with the c5-650s.
> 
> The way I get the BEST results (the only results that sound sort of good, not great but not awful) is BEFORE calibration on my HU I turn mids almost all the way down, bass up and treb up even higher. as soon as calibration is finished I set all these back to flat. with this I can actually get some midbass. from here I crank 80-250hz up about 7db and there is some coming from the front.
> 
> If I have all EQ set flat before calibration I get ZERO midbass, it doesn't matter what xover, slope, or relative gains (between sub and mids/highs).
> 
> Anyone else have to do this, setting EQ before calibration? Does me having to do this give anyone an idea of what might be causing my problems?
> 
> Any checks or tests that have to do with opening door panels, changing wires, or anything like this requires that I go to an audio person, and I've already thrown so much money at this thing I'd like to get it worked out.
> 
> I certainly get this is not the laymans processor it was billed as, but I don't want to give up on it yet as so many have had great results.


Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I did forget to add in my original post, if I calibrate with just front speakers, run as 1 way and let the passive xovers do the work, it sounds really good, strong bass for sure.

This tells me that I don't have a polarity problem correct? My sub has a 180 deg switch for polarity, and have tried running both ways and still, no midbass.

Also, if I'm not going to be changing xovers, slopes, etc, I can just run the acoustic measurement instead of starting from scratch, correct?

I have tried every trick on here as far as I know.

Is there anyone in the Central Florida area that'd be willing to help?


----------



## BuickGN

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Guys, no need for an 8" in the center channel unless you're going to do a 3-way with a small midrange too. The 8" will NEVER reach the tweeter and tuning will be a nightmare because you'll have a big hole in the off-axis response between the mid and tweeter but not in the reflection off the glass.
> 
> Please...do yourselves a favor and heed this advice.


Does this apply if you have a tweeter that will play under 2khz cleanly? I was thinking of spending a little extra money and going with a Dynaudio 110 tweeter that's fully capable of sub 2khz. In fact, I think 1.6khz is possible. I have the room to throw in a dome midrange under the dash but the hole itself is only 4x6 so getting a set of 3-way speakers firing out of there might become a problem. The reason I was thinking of using something large is I have 10" midbasses and I thought the center was supposed to be able to keep up with the midbass, or at least close. 

Is it simple beaming you're worried about or does dispersion narrow as you approach beaming? I thought having it fire off of the windshield would help but I'm assuming that's even worse when it's beaming?

The route I've wanted to go for quite some time is a 430 3.5" midrange and tweeter. That would be the easiet to fit and I love the way they sound. 200hz is no issue but I'm guessing that's not low enough when the midbass is crossed over at 60hz.


----------



## subwoofery

BuickGN said:


> Does this apply if you have a tweeter that will play under 2khz cleanly? I was thinking of spending a little extra money and going with a Dynaudio 110 tweeter that's fully capable of sub 2khz. In fact, I think 1.6khz is possible. I have the room to throw in a dome midrange under the dash but the hole itself is only 4x6 so getting a set of 3-way speakers firing out of there might become a problem. The reason I was thinking of using something large is I have 10" midbasses and I thought the center was supposed to be able to keep up with the midbass, or at least close.
> 
> Is it simple beaming you're worried about or does dispersion narrow as you approach beaming? I thought having it fire off of the windshield would help but I'm assuming that's even worse when it's beaming?
> 
> The route I've wanted to go for quite some time is a 430 3.5" midrange and tweeter. That would be the easiet to fit and I love the way they sound. 200hz is no issue but I'm guessing that's not low enough when the midbass is crossed over at 60hz.


Guess it has to do with the polar response around the Xover point for the 2 drivers... 

(taken from Flat response?)
Polar of an 8" driver 









Polar of a 1" tweeter 









Patrick suggests that you match the polar response of the midrange and the tweeter @ the Xover point: An Array That Does Not Suck?

Hope that helps, 
Kelvin 

PS: good info here too Seeking Advice FOR speaker Beaming


----------



## rynfarrell

Labrador said:


> My first setup included a Helix AAC high-low converter and signal input at the rca-ins of the MS-8. I did that because the MS-8 did not regognize the setup track from my Volkswagen headunit (the Audi-syndrome with "signal low" up to volume level 13 and "no signal" afterwards).
> This is because the Volkswagen and Audi headunits start to clip certain frequencies at higher volume to prevent the factory speakers from getting blown out of the doors.
> When you recode the headunit to soundsystem, you automatically deactivate the clipping and you get much better output signal. You can then connect the headunit directly to the rca-ins without any converters. The setup track works then. I my case, I had to use a ground loop isolator to kill a humming noise, nevertheless.
> For example, my MS-8 ist set to -10db and when I turn volume of my headunit to 18+, I get really good volume levels without any distortion or clipping noises.


Thanks, looks like it is time to find me a vagcom


----------



## Alan-Rx

I have no rear speakers. I have to install them.
I hear the song "Too close-Clair Marlo" and find difference using Logic 7, or not using it.
I feel like missing notes.

Is this about the Logic7?


----------



## BuickGN

Looks like 1.6k might just work.


----------



## Alan-Rx

BuickGN said:


> Looks like 1.6k might just work.


Does that answer is for me?


----------



## Labrador

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hey, this is really good and really helpful information. would you do me a big favor and tell me the year and model of your car and which audio system was fitted at the factory?



Andy,

no problem. I have a 2010 Volkswagen Scirocco with a RNS315 GPS Navigation Unit. No Dynaudio (But MS8 :freak: )


----------



## mooch91

I have a not-so-good sub that peaks in the 50 Hz range with a rather flat response in to the upper mid-bass region (shallow sub). I'm finding the only way to get half-way decent integration between the sub and the midbass is to keep the sub volume fairly low and set a low-pass filter at the sub amp downstream of the MS-8 (120 Hz or so) that I run before and after calibration. Does this make any sense? I'm not completely sure how much EQ the MS-8 is trying to do on the sub, or if it's just using it to set level.

Any other tips to integrate a peaky sub?

Thanks.


----------



## subwoofery

mooch91 said:


> I have a not-so-good sub that peaks in the 50 Hz range with a rather flat response in to the upper mid-bass region (shallow sub). I'm finding the only way to get half-way decent integration between the sub and the midbass is to keep the sub volume fairly low and set a low-pass filter at the sub amp downstream of the MS-8 (120 Hz or so) that I run before and after calibration. Does this make any sense? I'm not completely sure how much EQ the MS-8 is trying to do on the sub, or if it's just using it to set level.
> 
> *Any other tips to integrate a peaky sub?*
> 
> Thanks.


Build a bigger box  

Kelvin


----------



## mooch91

subwoofery said:


> Build a bigger box
> 
> Kelvin


 Tryin to make do with what I got...


----------



## mitchyz250f

subwoofery said:


> Guess it has to do with the polar response around the Xover point for the 2 drivers...
> 
> (taken from Flat response?)
> Polar of an 8" driver
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Polar of a 1" tweeter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Patrick suggests that you match the polar response of the midrange and the tweeter @ the Xover point: An Array That Does Not Suck?
> 
> Hope that helps,
> Kelvin
> 
> PS: good info here too Seeking Advice FOR speaker Beaming


Of course what is posted above is undeniably true, but there may be some ways around this. Douglas WInker crossed his 8" JBL 2118 (which is a BIG 8" speaker) at 3000K and his car was outstanding for staging. His technique is outlined in this thread.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...y-reducing-speaker-beaming-2.html#post1062938

On post 35, Doug explain his method and reasoning. 
"If you look at sound radiation from a baffled piston (loudspeaker), you will see a relationship between loudspeaker diameter and wavelength as they relate to beamwidth. As the wavelength approaches the diameter of the piston, the main lobe narrows and side lobes appear. Now that is a simple algebraic relationship and nothing in acoustics starts out as a simple algebraic equation. It starts with differential equations with certain boundary conditions. One of the boundary conditions is that the edge of the loudspeaker in not clamped, which is what you have with a loudspeaker that moves freely at the edge. The other boundary condition is that the distance from the center of the loudspeaker to the edge of the loudspeaker is constant. It is this condition that determines loudspeaker beam patterns. If you are at a point directly in front of a speaker (say 1 m) and measure to the center of the dust cap, you get a distance of 1m. Now if you measure from the same point to the edge of the cone, you get a longer measurement. The difference between the two is the key because that difference if the same for any point at the edge of the cone. When the speaker moves (assuming pistonic motion), a wave front appears about the surface of the cone and travels toward you. The wave motion from the center of the cone gets there first and the wave from the edge (called the edge wave) gets there a little later. This difference or delay is also a phase shift. When you combine both waves at your position, they can combine constructively and destructively depending on the amount of delay. If the wave length is very large, there is little or no change in the directivity. If the difference is on the order of a wavelength, then you get interference and the beam pattern changes.

Now, if the edge of the loudspeaker is random, then the interference is reduced and the beamwidth stays omni-directional at higher frequencies. Also, the side lobes, when they appear, are 27 dB below the main lobe in amplitude. Since it is hard to build a random edge woofer and make it work well, you build the next best thing – a lens or diffraction ring as I call it. Of course, if you do the math you will see that an 8” speaker is good to about 1 kHz before you need this. My 8s play to almost 3 k so I need a ring. When you get to a 6”, you are at ~3k before this would do you any good so it is not necessary. They work for me because I go from an 8 to a tweeter. If you put them on anything smaller, they are not worth the effort.

I have to give credit where credit is due on these. Gary Biggs helped me make mine. Actually he made them because my aluminum skills at the time were not so hot. I did polish them myself though."

See pic.


----------



## Neil_J

mitchyz250f said:


> Of course what is posted above is undeniably true, but there may be some ways around this. Douglas WInker crossed his 8" JBL 2118 (which is a BIG 8" speaker) at 3000K and his car was outstanding for staging. His technique is outlined in this thread.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...y-reducing-speaker-beaming-2.html#post1062938


Very informative post, thanks for digging that up.


----------



## fuji6

For the people using an external low pass filter ( like allow pass on your amp ) on your sub before calibration. Are you Turing it off post calibration?


----------



## mooch91

fuji6 said:


> For the people using an external low pass filter ( like allow pass on your amp ) on your sub before calibration. Are you Turing it off post calibration?


I'm leaving it on.


----------



## jerrychrist

mooch91 said:


> I'm leaving it on.


So the previous guy mentioned he sets his amp xover to 120hz, is that what is recommended if you ms8 sub xover is 70-80?

Using my phone to get a rough idea of what frequencies are being played and what has a hole, it seems the sub sweep goes up to about 125-160hz, and that is the range that I have the biggest dip in post calibration midbass. Is this just business as normal since the sub sweep uses the 50hz frequency anyway?


----------



## mooch91

jerrychrist said:


> So the previous guy mentioned he sets his amp xover to 120hz, is that what is recommended if you ms8 sub xover is 70-80?
> 
> Using my phone to get a rough idea of what frequencies are being played and what has a hole, it seems the sub sweep goes up to about 125-160hz, and that is the range that I have the biggest dip in post calibration midbass. Is this just business as normal since the sub sweep uses the 50hz frequency anyway?


That's me and I selected 120 Hz because it seemed to work, not because I understand how the MS-8 treats the sub sweep. I would like to understand more about this part of the calibration if you can point me to some info or if Andy could comment.


----------



## jerrychrist

mooch91 said:


> That's me and I selected 120 Hz because it seemed to work, not because I understand how the MS-8 treats the sub sweep. I would like to understand more about this part of the calibration if you can point me to some info or if Andy could comment.


I'm in the same boat. I remember reading at some point on this thread them talking about making this kind of adjustment on the midbass not the sub. since i have my ms8 > amp > passive xover > front speakers that method is not an option for me, so I'm wondering myself if playing around with this would work.

I can get mids to sound great without the trunk sub, as soon as i throw that in there (i've tried both polarities) i lose my midbass. I've tried all the methods i can think of excluding splicing the sub into the fronts which is beyond my abilities.

to andy or kaigoss - have you guys messed with this stuff? or any other methods with a similar setup to mine? 2 way component with passive xovers getting full range and sub xed at 70 24db slope?


----------



## nineball

jerrychrist said:


> to andy or kaigoss - have you guys messed with this stuff? or any other methods with a similar setup to mine? 2 way component with passive xovers getting full range and sub xed at 70 24db slope?


why would you only use 3 channels of the ms-8? it seems like a complete waste of it's abilities. it's like buying a porsche and only driving in 20mph school zones.


----------



## mooch91

nineball said:


> why would you only use 3 channels of the ms-8? it seems like a complete waste of it's abilities. it's like buying a porsche and only driving in 20mph school zones.


I can't speak for jerry, but for me the reason was to improve the SQ of a relatively modest system that was installed with some compromises. My existing setup had limited EQ and I don't consider myself capable (or patient) enough to utilize full EQ on my own anyway. I'm figuring the MS-8 is flexibile enough to expand it later as I have the means to revisit the compromises I've made.

I've bought the Porsche, I'm happy to be cruising around town with it as I'm getting comfortable driving it, and I'll probably be ready to get it to the track next season.


----------



## nineball

mooch91 said:


> I can't speak for jerry, but for me the reason was to improve the SQ of a relatively modest system that was installed with some compromises. My existing setup had limited EQ and I don't consider myself capable (or patient) enough to utilize full EQ on my own anyway. I'm figuring the MS-8 is flexibile enough to expand it later as I have the means to revisit the compromises I've made.
> 
> I've bought the Porsche, I'm happy to be cruising around town with it as I'm getting comfortable driving it, and I'll probably be ready to get it to the track next season.


i guess but that is the main benefit of the ms-8 - ease of install and setup. no one says you have to mess with the eq, and if you choose to do so simply write down the values the ms-8 assigns before you start messing with it in case you don't like the results. 

hopefully you at least ran four sets of speaker wires to the front stage for later (5 if you ever plan on using a center channel). still seems like kind of a waste considering what the hard part is done already. to each his own.


----------



## jerrychrist

nineball said:


> why would you only use 3 channels of the ms-8? it seems like a complete waste of it's abilities. it's like buying a porsche and only driving in 20mph school zones.


I am only using this setup right now because I can't get good results. I figure if I can't get midbass with front component speakers + a sub, how likely is it for me to get better results with a 7.1 setup?

I am approaching it as; do the simplest setup first, perfect it, then plan for expansion. If I were to expand before I can even get the basic setup, i'm throwing in a host of other variables that makes everything more complicated.

More comparable; instead of driving a Porsche at 20, its more like learning stick on a beater so you don't burn out your Porsche's clutch or blow the motor.

I would eventually like to replace my center channel (still stock 3.5", i just haven't been including it in the config, although it's connected to the ms8) and possibly keep my rear 6x9s (also connected to the ms8, just haven't been including them) just for rear fill.


----------



## Neil_J

nineball said:


> why would you only use 3 channels of the ms-8? it seems like a complete waste of it's abilities. it's like buying a porsche and only driving in 20mph school zones.


Sounds like if he can get the frequency response and T/A nailed without learning how to tune, he probably got his money's worth. Still cheaper than a P99 or even a Mosconi dsp. Not everyone wants to make their car a science project after all (I did and still regret that decision sometimes).


----------



## nineball

Neil_J said:


> Sounds like if he can get the frequency response and T/A nailed without learning how to tune, he probably got his money's worth. Still cheaper than a P99 or even a Mosconi dsp. Not everyone wants to make their car a science project after all (I did and still regret that decision sometimes).


getting t/a down on a set of passive comps won't help once they are active and every speaker needs to be set independently. we as consumers can't even change the t/a, or anything other than eq, on the ms-8. the whole point of the ms-8 was to make tuning easy for everyone.


----------



## jerrychrist

Neil_J said:


> Sounds like if he can get the frequency response and T/A nailed without learning how to tune, he probably got his money's worth. Still cheaper than a P99 or even a Mosconi dsp. Not everyone wants to make their car a science project after all (I did and still regret that decision sometimes).


Yeah, I appreciate car audio to a degree, but I'm not looking to compete or have the BEST system out there. I'm certainly looking for better than average, but the MS-8 hasn't given me average yet. Also I'm not completely blaming the MS-8 either, there could be something that I'm just doing wrong.

A lot of guys out there may like driving their cars, but don't know how to take apart and rebuild an engine, is there anything wrong with that?



nineball said:


> getting t/a down on a set of passive comps won't help once they are active and every speaker needs to be set independently. we as consumers can't even change the t/a, or anything other than eq, on the ms-8. the whole point of the ms-8 was to make tuning easy for everyone.


I'm not really sure what you're saying? One big reason why I don't want to give up the ms8, is i love everything else that it has been doing, the staging and everything is spot on and really changes the dynamics of the sound in a good way. if i could only get that small frequency range to improve it would be perfect, unfortunately without it, it is not as good sounding as my OEM upgraded system (which I do not want to go back to either).


----------



## nineball

jerrychrist said:


> I'm not really sure what you're saying? One big reason why I don't want to give up the ms8, is i love everything else that it has been doing, the staging and everything is spot on and really changes the dynamics of the sound in a good way. if i could only get that small frequency range to improve it would be perfect, unfortunately without it, it is not as good sounding as my OEM upgraded system (which I do not want to go back to either).


that response wasn't directed at you. see below:



Neil_J said:


> Sounds like if he can get the frequency response and T/A nailed without learning how to tune, he probably got his money's worth. Still cheaper than a P99 or even a Mosconi dsp. Not everyone wants to make their car a science project after all (I did and still regret that decision sometimes).


trying to setup the system with only part of the speakers you plan on using in the end is a waste of time, at least imho. everything will change once you go active and add more speakers into the mix. think of it like getting a chip for your car to perform better on race fuel but doing the initial setup on pump fuel - when you actually get race fuel everything you have done so far will be thrown out the window and you will start from scratch.


----------



## jerrychrist

nineball said:


> that response wasn't directed at you. see below:
> 
> 
> 
> trying to setup the system with only part of the speakers you plan on using in the end is a waste of time, at least imho. everything will change once you go active and add more speakers into the mix. think of it like getting a chip for your car to perform better on race fuel but doing the initial setup on pump fuel - when you actually get race fuel everything you have done so far will be thrown out the window and you will start from scratch.


Ahh yeah I see what you're saying. Originally I wanted to go active, but I don't remember why the installer recommended otherwise. Would going full active fix this problem? it seems even people that are doing that are having the same issue.

i'm not going from pump to top fuel yet, just trying to figure out why there is such a hole when adding the trunk sub (and the workarounds i've tried haven't helped).

Hoping if I haven't figured out the problem I can get some hands on help at an event.


----------



## 14642

Jerrychrist,
Try something for me, please. Run an additional RCA from MS-8 to your sub amp. Connect them to channels 7 and 8.

Then, go back to the menu and choose:

Sub: none
Front: 2-way
Center: None
Sides: None
Rear: None

Subsonic filter: 20Hz, 12dB/Oca
Front low/high: 80Hz, 24dB/octave

Configure the channels in the menu.

Turn the gain on your sub amp to about the 2V setting. Turn MS-8's volume control to something like -25. Recalibrate. Turn off L7. Listen.

Report your findings here, please.


----------



## BuickGN

I'll be looking forward to hearing his results. 

I know it depends on amp power and gains but it seems like even when I calibrate with what sounds like a normal volume I'm at -50. Maybe I'll try -30 but I think it would hurt my ears.


----------



## 14642

Oh, if there are additional outboard amps, then it has to be lower. -20 to -25 works when MS-8 is driving the speakers.


----------



## kaigoss69

jerrychrist said:


> I'm in the same boat. I remember reading at some point on this thread them talking about making this kind of adjustment on the midbass not the sub. since i have my ms8 > amp > passive xover > front speakers that method is not an option for me, so I'm wondering myself if playing around with this would work.
> 
> I can get mids to sound great without the trunk sub, as soon as i throw that in there (i've tried both polarities) i lose my midbass. I've tried all the methods i can think of excluding splicing the sub into the fronts which is beyond my abilities.
> 
> to andy or kaigoss - have you guys messed with this stuff? or any other methods with a similar setup to mine? 2 way component with passive xovers getting full range and sub xed at 70 24db slope?


You may want to try a higher x-over point, between 80-100Hz. Other than that, you can't use the LP filter trick, since you don't run a dedicated midbass.


----------



## jerrychrist

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Jerrychrist,
> Try something for me, please. Run an additional RCA from MS-8 to your sub amp. Connect them to channels 7 and 8.
> 
> Then, go back to the menu and choose:
> 
> Sub: none
> Front: 2-way
> Center: None
> Sides: None
> Rear: None
> 
> Subsonic filter: 20Hz, 12dB/Oca
> Front low/high: 80Hz, 24dB/octave
> 
> Configure the channels in the menu.
> 
> Turn the gain on your sub amp to about the 2V setting. Turn MS-8's volume control to something like -25. Recalibrate. Turn off L7. Listen.
> 
> Report your findings here, please.


Thanks Andy, I'll give that a shot. Right now my sub has been on channel 3 and 4, so I already have two for it. When I connect the sub to channel 7 and 8 I don't need to say I have 2 sub channels? And also 2 way fronts even though they are connected to passives (1 channel for right, 1 channel for left)



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Oh, if there are additional outboard amps, then it has to be lower. -20 to -25 works when MS-8 is driving the speakers.


Yeah like GN, I've been calibrating on like -35-50 depending. Now I certainly know that all amps are different, but if you had to guess, to set gains at 2v would you be almost all the way down, quarter up, half up? Just so I have an approximate area to play around with.



kaigoss69 said:


> You may want to try a higher x-over point, between 80-100Hz. Other than that, you can't use the LP filter trick, since you don't run a dedicated midbass.


I can def try higher points, I know my sub can handle ranges up to around 200-250, at what xover point to people consider subs to be too noisy generally?

Thanks guys for giving me some tips, I'll probably play around with these when I get back from work today.


----------



## kaigoss69

Jerry,

I think Andy wants you to set it up something like this:

Ch1: FL Hi (2-way comps left door)
Ch2: FR Hi (2-way comps right door)
Ch7: FL Lo (sub1)
Ch8: FR Lo (sub2)


----------



## jerrychrist

kaigoss69 said:


> Jerry,
> 
> I think Andy wants you to set it up something like this:
> 
> Ch1: FL Hi (2-way comps left door)
> Ch2: FR Hi (2-way comps right door)
> Ch7: FL Lo (sub1)
> Ch8: FR Lo (sub2)


Okay thanks. I'm sure it seems I'm not using common sense, I just want to make sure I'm doing exactly what you guys are saying.

So do I still select sub as "None" but when I do channel assignments I can put them on 7 and 8? Or go ahead and set sub at 2 and just assign to the aforementioned channels?

Also, kaigoss, since you said to move up the xover point, the main hole I see as per my phones RTA analyzer is about 125hz, and sloping before and after that point, if I were to put my sub at 125 would that take care of it without giving the sub too much to do?

Also if it helps you guys, my mid woofers are rated to 64hz (and sound really good without a sub) which is why I was playing with a lower xover.


----------



## 14642

Yes, choose "none" for subs and make channels 7 and 8 front low. Channels 1 and 2 are front high.


----------



## mooch91

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, choose "none" for subs and make channels 7 and 8 front low. Channels 1 and 2 are front high.


Anything special about making channels 7 and 8 the F-Lo (sub) channels or could it just as well be 3 and 4 or 5 and 6? Just trying to see if there was something special about the 7 and 8 outputs that I did not know about.
Thanks.


----------



## bmiller1

Okay. I ran into a weird issue. I have tried many things and have sought help from another member, PJC, but he is very busy saving lives and whatnot. I apologize for the length of this post but I feel its necessary to fully express the issue. I will start by saying that, I'm not full blown noob status, but maybe a high-ranking noob officer of sorts. So, if there's something simple I'm missing it would not surprise me and I would be happy to be corrected. First of all, the system:

HU: Clarion CX501
Front Stage: Polk SR6500
Sub: 2x DIYMA R12
Front Stage Amp: Arc 4150xxk
Sub Amp: Arc KS1000.1bx
Processing: JBL MS-8 (appropriate for this thread, I believe) 
Deadening: Ab-so-lutely.

So, ran everything passive for a while. Sounded great. Won a competition. Only one other person in my class you say? True, but I schooled him.  Got the MS8 and after bouts of confusion and stupidity, had the system sounding pretty amazing using the MS8 and the passive crossovers. I insisted on the passives because I feared that my amp would not be enough to do the mids justice unbridged. The bridged power quadruples on the xxk. But, today, decided to try active. Hence the issue.

To insure that all my mess of cables/wires went where they should go, I drew out a schematic of my system, what inputs/outputs each connection was assigned to, and labeled each cable and wire. After connecting everything in it's appropriate place, I went from bridged to 2 passives to full blown active 4x80wrms. I had my tweeters on the Front channel of the xxk (L & R accordingly) and the mids on the Rear Channel of the xxk (L & R accordingly) Set my crossovers appropriately (28Hz ssf; 80Hz/18db; 3100Hz/18db) on the MS8 and got to the Test Signal section to make sure I did everything right. 2-way + sub. Test tones went as such:

Front Left Tone: FL tweeter and mid played. FR tweeter played.
Front Right Tone: FR tweeter and mid played. FL tweeter played.

I checked, double checked, triple checked, and quadruple checked all RCA input and output connections and speaker connections as well as my channel assignment on the MS8. All is well and the result was the same 4 times in a row. After some discussion, I basically switched everything. I put my tweeters on the Rear Channels because that's where the high-frequency XO is and, I wanted to protect them because I have no inline cap. So, now tweeters are on the Rear Channel and mids are on the Front Channel. I remember, when I first got the MS8 having an issue and thinking it was an output channel on MS8 1-3. When I switched to active I used 1-5. So now I assigned everything properly with channels 4-8. So, everything is now reversed. Now with...blah blah blah quadruple checking, my noise test results are:

Front Left Tone: FL tweeter and mid. FR mid.
Front Right Tone: FR tweeter and mid. FL mid.

At this point, I'm thinking, though I checked everything, I did something stupid. I get a tone generator. All speakers are hooked up properly, properly labeled, and are getting signal. Okay, so this is the point where I show you this. Excuse the ****iness of the picture. Ever since I replaced the back glass on my iPhone, the camera is bunk:










I'm thinking there was a problem with the three input-type switches on the amp. Both Front and Rear Channels are set to stereo and the the third switch "Rear Source" is set to 4 ch. I'm thinking that there may be an issue with one of these switches. I test again, same results. I switch to "Rear Source" 2 ch. No change, which seems odd to me. 

So, I take the RCA input straight off of the HU (bypassing the MS8) and plug it into each of the inputs on the xxk. Each speaker plays exactly as expected. I seriously thought it was an issue with the amp but, in my highly-ranked noob status, it appears not. The only issue can be with the MS8. I'm sorry again for the lengthy post. Send all complaints to [email protected]. And, I officially say...What the hell?


----------



## subwoofery

bmiller1 said:


> Okay. I ran into a weird issue. I have tried many things and have sought help from another member, PJC, but he is very busy saving lives and whatnot. I apologize for the length of this post but I feel its necessary to fully express the issue. I will start by saying that, I'm not full blown noob status, but maybe a high-ranking noob officer of sorts. So, if there's something simple I'm missing it would not surprise me and I would be happy to be corrected. First of all, the system:
> 
> HU: Clarion CX501
> Front Stage: Polk SR6500
> Sub: 2x DIYMA R12
> Front Stage Amp: Arc 4150xxk
> Sub Amp: Arc KS1000.1bx
> Processing: JBL MS-8 (appropriate for this thread, I believe)
> Deadening: Ab-so-lutely.
> 
> So, ran everything passive for a while. Sounded great. Won a competition. Only one other person in my class you say? True, but I schooled him.  Got the MS8 and after bouts of confusion and stupidity, had the system sounding pretty amazing using the MS8 and the passive crossovers. I insisted on the passives because I feared that my amp would not be enough to do the mids justice unbridged. The bridged power quadruples on the xxk. But, today, decided to try active. Hence the issue.
> 
> To insure that all my mess of cables/wires went where they should go, I drew out a schematic of my system, what inputs/outputs each connection was assigned to, and labeled each cable and wire. After connecting everything in it's appropriate place, I went from bridged to 2 passives to full blown active 4x80wrms. I had my tweeters on the Front channel of the xxk (L & R accordingly) and the mids on the Rear Channel of the xxk (L & R accordingly) Set my crossovers appropriately (28Hz ssf; 80Hz/18db; 3100Hz/18db) on the MS8 and got to the Test Signal section to make sure I did everything right. 2-way + sub. Test tones went as such:
> 
> Front Left Tone: FL tweeter and mid played. FR tweeter played.
> Front Right Tone: FR tweeter and mid played. FL tweeter played.
> 
> I checked, double checked, triple checked, and quadruple checked all RCA input and output connections and speaker connections as well as my channel assignment on the MS8. All is well and the result was the same 4 times in a row. After some discussion, I basically switched everything. I put my tweeters on the Rear Channels because that's where the high-frequency XO is and, I wanted to protect them because I have no inline cap. So, now tweeters are on the Rear Channel and mids are on the Front Channel. I remember, when I first got the MS8 having an issue and thinking it was an output channel on MS8 1-3. When I switched to active I used 1-5. So now I assigned everything properly with channels 4-8. So, everything is now reversed. Now with...blah blah blah quadruple checking, my noise test results are:
> 
> Front Left Tone: FL tweeter and mid. FR mid.
> Front Right Tone: FR tweeter and mid. FL mid.
> 
> At this point, I'm thinking, though I checked everything, I did something stupid. I get a tone generator. All speakers are hooked up properly, properly labeled, and are getting signal. Okay, so this is the point where I show you this. Excuse the ****iness of the picture. Ever since I replaced the back glass on my iPhone, the camera is bunk:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thinking there was a problem with the three input-type switches on the amp. Both Front and Rear Channels are set to stereo and the the third switch "Rear Source" is set to 4 ch. I'm thinking that there may be an issue with one of these switches. I test again, same results. I switch to "Rear Source" 2 ch. No change, which seems odd to me.
> 
> So, I take the RCA input straight off of the HU (bypassing the MS8) and plug it into each of the inputs on the xxk. Each speaker plays exactly as expected. I seriously thought it was an issue with the amp but, in my highly-ranked noob status, it appears not. The only issue can be with the MS8. I'm sorry again for the lengthy post. Send all complaints to [email protected]. And, I officially say...What the hell?


You've checked everything - connection wise - what about channel assignment in the MS-8 setup? Did you set the setup menu correctly (2-way)?

Kelvin


----------



## jerrychrist

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, choose "none" for subs and make channels 7 and 8 front low. Channels 1 and 2 are front high.


Sorry, so this is a really newbie question for sure. I'm pretty comfortable with the calibration, but did not do the install and not good at that sort of thing.

To do this, I don't need to touch any of the hi level inputs or speaker outputs right? I have 4 RCAs plugged into the line output, I'm guessing 1 and 2 are the fronts, so since I set channel 3 and 4 for the sub, I just move those down to 7 and 8 right?

I just want to make sure I don't have to change any of the hi level inputs or speaker outputs.

Sorry for the newb question. Thanks.


----------



## bmiller1

subwoofery said:


> You've checked everything - connection wise - what about channel assignment in the MS-8 setup? Did you set the setup menu correctly (2-way)?
> 
> Kelvin


Yes. When I realized something funky was going on, I went step by step with labels and pen and paper and did the process no less than 10 times, from inputs to outputs to speaker connections to assignment of channels on the MS8. And had someone with me checking my work.


----------



## bmiller1

Okay, so oilman runs the same gear and pointed out to me that the crossovers (which I believed to be non-defeatable) are defeatable via recessed switches on the underside. Switched those, boom!! We're all good. So, bottom line, I'm an idiot, oilman is smart. Please resume your conversation not pertaining to stupidity. 

Thanks for the help though.


----------



## 14642

jerrychrist said:


> Sorry, so this is a really newbie question for sure. I'm pretty comfortable with the calibration, but did not do the install and not good at that sort of thing.
> 
> To do this, I don't need to touch any of the hi level inputs or speaker outputs right? I have 4 RCAs plugged into the line output, I'm guessing 1 and 2 are the fronts, so since I set channel 3 and 4 for the sub, I just move those down to 7 and 8 right?
> 
> I just want to make sure I don't have to change any of the hi level inputs or speaker outputs.
> 
> Sorry for the newb question. Thanks.


Oh, if channels 3 and 4 feed the sub amp, then there's no need to move them. just assign them as follows:

channels 1 and 2 Front high
channels 3 and 4 Front Low

Subsonic filter 20Hz 12 dB/octave
Front Low/High: 80Hz 24dB/octave

Then calibrate.


----------



## Mindcrime

I just bought a refurb, after beating my head against a wall for 2 days, I finally took it to a shop to see if I was loosing my mind... turns out ch 1 & 2 are bad.. moved everything down to 3 through 8 and its working great, I haven't had much time to play with it, but I'm pretty damn impressed. I contacted customer support to see if I could pay the difference and get a new one rather than have to deal with another refurb.


----------



## jerrychrist

Mindcrime said:


> I just bought a refurb, after beating my head against a wall for 2 days, I finally took it to a shop to see if I was loosing my mind... turns out ch 1 & 2 are bad.. moved everything down to 3 through 8 and its working great, I haven't had much time to play with it, but I'm pretty damn impressed. I contacted customer support to see if I could pay the difference and get a new one rather than have to deal with another refurb.


Hey Mindcrime, just curious, when you say they were bad did they not work at all or produce a bad sound?


----------



## Mindcrime

They produce very very distorted and low volume


----------



## remeolb

t3sn4f2 said:


> That means you can send the fully balanced symbi signal from the _transmitter_ straight into the appropriate input on the MS-8.


Sorry to dig up a really old post. 

How exactly would this be done?


----------



## Offroader5

Sorry if this has been discussed already, and I figure the answer is somewhere in these 100's of pages...but after much time skimming...I'm just going to ask.

I'm convinced that I want to use the MS8. While researching, I also like the MSA1004 & MSA5001 amps and since I like the idea of having matching components, it's a plus. The question is about the DSP in the amps. Is the processing in amps going to fight or disrupt the processing output from the MS8? Is their a way to bypass or defeat the processing duties of the amps?


----------



## nineball

Offroader5 said:


> Sorry if this has been discussed already, and I figure the answer is somewhere in these 100's of pages...but after much time skimming...I'm just going to ask.
> 
> I'm convinced that I want to use the MS8. While researching, I also like the MSA1004 & MSA5001 amps and since I like the idea of having matching components, it's a plus. The question is about the DSP in the amps. Is the processing in amps going to fight or disrupt the processing output from the MS8? Is their a way to bypass or defeat the processing duties of the amps?



yep. everything on the ms series amps can be set to bypass. i run a trio of them.


----------



## kaigoss69

Hi Andy,

you once mentioned an IB sub install you knew of in a BMW 3-series, that you said worked really well. Care to share more details???


----------



## Offroader5

Ok, so after reading much more in this thread, I'm under the impression this would work well. My 4runner came OEM with a 10 speaker JBL system (hmm, ironic right) which is pretty much non-existent at this point...but it did give me all those locations.

My plan was at first to run a 5 channel amp, which would be channels 1 thru 4 to the front door mids/tweets and one channel to a single DVC sub. That would be it in terms of external amps. Then I would use the MS8 to power the midbass in the rear doors and a center channel in the dash. This would use all 8 channels.

But, then I thought about using the rear most pillars that housed the OEM surround speakers and also running them off the MS8 directly. This of course would net 10 channels total with the configuration above. I'd be forced to use only 2 channels at the front doors in lieu of the 4.

Question is, would it even be worth it to install a rear (top of D-pillar) set of speakers and give up running the preferred 4 channels to the front stage, especially since they are that far back and will only be seeing the lower power from the MS8?


----------



## 14642

Offroader5 said:


> Ok, so after reading much more in this thread, I'm under the impression this would work well. My 4runner came OEM with a 10 speaker JBL system (hmm, ironic right) which is pretty much non-existent at this point...but it did give me all those locations.
> 
> My plan was at first to run a 5 channel amp, which would be channels 1 thru 4 to the front door mids/tweets and one channel to a single DVC sub. That would be it in terms of external amps. Then I would use the MS8 to power the midbass in the rear doors and a center channel in the dash. This would use all 8 channels.
> 
> But, then I thought about using the rear most pillars that housed the OEM surround speakers and also running them off the MS8 directly. This of course would net 10 channels total with the configuration above. I'd be forced to use only 2 channels at the front doors in lieu of the 4.
> 
> Question is, would it even be worth it to install a rear (top of D-pillar) set of speakers and give up running the preferred 4 channels to the front stage, especially since they are that far back and will only be seeing the lower power from the MS8?


Connect the D-Pillar speakers in parallel with the side speakers and run MS_8 as a 5.1, keeping the bi-amp in the front (separate channels for your midbass). This works great. There's a bigger benefit to biamping the front than in discrete rear channels. I promise.


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> Hi Andy,
> 
> you once mentioned an IB sub install you knew of in a BMW 3-series, that you said worked really well. Care to share more details???


Hey Kai,
IB is the easiest installation in the world and will eliminate the peaky sealed box sound. 

Be careful about a couple of things. despite the huge misunderstanding about what "control" means and about how a sealed box affects that, your woofer will NOT handle the same amount of power in IB as it does in a sealed box. The box reduces excursion and reduces bass. The IB will allow excursion and increase bass. You can use the subsonic filter in MS-8 to reduce excursion at the lowest frequencies. 

Don't go crazy and fill the side panels of the car with a bunch of foam or build your trunk into a box. Air MUST flow from the cabin through the trunk to rid the car of exhaust fumes and there's little sonic benefit to all that work. I do suggest mounting the woofers so that there is a direct path from the cone of the speaker to your ear. That means cutting the rear package tray and installing a metal or plastic mesh grille. DO NOT COVER IT WITH GRILLE CLOTH! If you do, it'll make a bunch of noise.

You can use any sub for IB, so long as the coil is long enough to provide the excursion that will be the result of applying your amp's power.


----------



## shamie

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hey Kai,
> DO NOT COVER IT WITH GRILLE CLOTH! If you do, it'll make a bunch of noise.


What? Care to explain the sonic damage caused by grill cloth?


----------



## 14642

shamie said:


> What? Care to explain the sonic damage caused by grill cloth?


THe sub will move lots of air which may make the grille cloth snap against the grille it covers. I write "may" because this doesn't always happen, but when it does, it sucks.


----------



## shamie

OIC. I missed the part about it covering a grill. I was thinking along the lines of a home speaker/grill cloth sispended from a frame.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hey Kai,
> IB is the easiest installation in the world and will eliminate the peaky sealed box sound.
> 
> Be careful about a couple of things. despite the huge misunderstanding about what "control" means and about how a sealed box affects that, your woofer will NOT handle the same amount of power in IB as it does in a sealed box. The box reduces excursion and reduces bass. The IB will allow excursion and increase bass. You can use the subsonic filter in MS-8 to reduce excursion at the lowest frequencies.
> 
> Don't go crazy and fill the side panels of the car with a bunch of foam or build your trunk into a box. Air MUST flow from the cabin through the trunk to rid the car of exhaust fumes and there's little sonic benefit to all that work. I do suggest mounting the woofers so that there is a direct path from the cone of the speaker to your ear. That means cutting the rear package tray and installing a metal or plastic mesh grille. DO NOT COVER IT WITH GRILLE CLOTH! If you do, it'll make a bunch of noise.
> 
> You can use any sub for IB, so long as the coil is long enough to provide the excursion that will be the result of applying your amp's power.


I see, unfortunately that is not an option for me. I do not want to change the OEM appearance of the car's interior. Plan B would then surely be a baffle behind the seats, with the driver(s) "firing" through the ski-pass.


----------



## 14642

TYhe ski hole will work too and will probably be better than a small sealed box.


----------



## BuickGN

kaigoss69 said:


> I see, unfortunately that is not an option for me. I do not want to change the OEM appearance of the car's interior. Plan B would then surely be a baffle behind the seats, with the driver(s) "firing" through the ski-pass.


I've seen/done this in two 3-series, one a 10W7 and a 12W7 in a 3-series blowing through the ski-pass with very good results.


----------



## quietfly

Quick question guys, i'm moving my MS8 into a new install where a center channel is not feasible. Is having rear fill speakers in the rear doors worth it if i don't have a center for logic 7 to work with?

the new car is a hyundai sonata 2011 limited. i'm going with 

L3SE's in the dash
L6SE's in the front doors
and a Sealed Solobaric 12 in the trunk
i have the option to put 6.5 twoways in the rear doors that's what this post is about...


----------



## jerrychrist

Hey guys,

Andy, I haven't tried your suggestion yet to do front hi and low for the sub control because after going thru another calibration I got a pretty decent tune. Still a bit of a hole in midbass, but better than what i've gotten in about 100 other tunes, so I'm afraid to touch it hah.

My question is, on the current tune, I set it up with a volume of 30 out of 40 on my head unit, when I turn the volume to about 25 on headunit (-10db on ms8) during normal listening I get the occasional very loud pop/crackle sound. this will happen maybe 3-4 times in 30 min of driving. If I have the volume on the HU in the 20-22 range it happens less frequently and not nearly as loud. I have 80-160hz boosted by 4db, then slopes down. Also I turned my amp gains up post calibration.

Is this clipping? The speakers sound fine and not distorted at all except when it pops. Is there anything that can be done about it?

Also another question, if I were to turn my MS8 volume down to say -15db instead of my usual -10db, when I turn the HU volume up to 28-30 (calibrated @ 30 on HU) it will completely cut subs and sometimes do other weird things, but if I keep the HU volume lower and raise MS8 volume I don't have this problem, any ideas?


----------



## kaigoss69

jerrychrist said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Andy, I haven't tried your suggestion yet to do front hi and low for the sub control because after going thru another calibration I got a pretty decent tune. Still a bit of a hole in midbass, but better than what i've gotten in about 100 other tunes, so I'm afraid to touch it hah.
> 
> My question is, on the current tune, I set it up with a volume of 30 out of 40 on my head unit, when I turn the volume to about 25 on headunit (-10db on ms8) during normal listening I get the occasional very loud pop/crackle sound. this will happen maybe 3-4 times in 30 min of driving. If I have the volume on the HU in the 20-22 range it happens less frequently and not nearly as loud. I have 80-160hz boosted by 4db, then slopes down. Also I turned my amp gains up post calibration.
> 
> Is this clipping? The speakers sound fine and not distorted at all except when it pops. Is there anything that can be done about it?
> 
> Also another question, if I were to turn my MS8 volume down to say -15db instead of my usual -10db, when I turn the HU volume up to 28-30 (calibrated @ 30 on HU) it will completely cut subs and sometimes do other weird things, but if I keep the HU volume lower and raise MS8 volume I don't have this problem, any ideas?


Regarding the popping during driving, I had this problem recently. I would get the occasional very loud pop, especially after going over bumps in the road. As time went on, the problem got worse and more frequent, and the pops were followed by the MS-8 resetting. It drove me nuts and I thought my MS-8 was a fault, after having double and triple checked all connections.

Well, it ended up being a loose connection at the fuse terminal near the battery. One of the screws holding the screw terminal on the distribution plate was loose. After tightening the screw, the problem went away.

So, popping can be caused by loose power (and ground) connections. This may not have anything to do with your particular problem, but it should definitely be on the checklist of things to check when you have such issues.


----------



## rynfarrell

kaigoss69 said:


> Regarding the popping during driving, I had this problem recently. I would get the occasional very loud pop, especially after going over bumps in the road. As time went on, the problem got worse and more frequent, and the pops were followed by the MS-8 resetting. It drove me nuts and I thought my MS-8 was a fault, after having double and triple checked all connections.
> 
> Well, it ended up being a loose connection at the fuse terminal near the battery. One of the screws holding the screw terminal on the distribution plate was loose. After tightening the screw, the problem went away.
> 
> So, popping can be caused by loose power (and ground) connections. This may not have anything to do with your particular problem, but it should definitely be on the checklist of things to check when you have such issues.


I also had the load popping and reseting issue. Mine turned out to be a bad remote wire to the MS-8. Might want to check that as well


----------



## jf2oo6

quietfly said:


> Quick question guys, i'm moving my MS8 into a new install where a center channel is not feasible. Is having rear fill speakers in the rear doors worth it if i don't have a center for logic 7 to work with?
> 
> the new car is a hyundai sonata 2011 limited. i'm going with
> 
> L3SE's in the dash
> L6SE's in the front doors
> and a Sealed Solobaric 12 in the trunk
> i have the option to put 6.5 twoways in the rear doors that's what this post is about...


I am also interested in this. I will actually be running a center channel, but I am wondering how the rear fill in the rear door would work? My car is just much easier to put the rear fill in the rear doors, but I dont want to hinder the performance of the MS-8

What does everyone think of this location for the rear fill?


----------



## 14642

Yeah, rear fill in the rear doors is fine. If you'll use a component system in the back, mount the tweeter higher in the door panel. Mine are in the back surface of the B-Pillar. Works great.


----------



## alachua

kaigoss69 said:


> Regarding the popping during driving, I had this problem recently. I would get the occasional very loud pop, especially after going over bumps in the road. As time went on, the problem got worse and more frequent, and the pops were followed by the MS-8 resetting. It drove me nuts and I thought my MS-8 was a fault, after having double and triple checked all connections.
> 
> Well, it ended up being a loose connection at the fuse terminal near the battery. One of the screws holding the screw terminal on the distribution plate was loose. After tightening the screw, the problem went away.
> 
> So, popping can be caused by loose power (and ground) connections. This may not have anything to do with your particular problem, but it should definitely be on the checklist of things to check when you have such issues.





rynfarrell said:


> I also had the load popping and reseting issue. Mine turned out to be a bad remote wire to the MS-8. Might want to check that as well


:embarassed: I wasn't going to mention it, but my popping seems to have been related to a loose battery terminal. It hasn't made peep since I tightened it up a month or two ago, prior to that it would randomly have a very loud pop when I touched the brake pedal or disengaged the cruise control on longer rides.


----------



## subwoofery

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Here's a link to the other track:
> 
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26702498/DSP%20Demo%20Disc%20VO%20Stereo%20reverb%20rotat.m4a
> 
> This is a spoken track that I recorded in mono and "encoded" to play back in L7. The voice should start in the center and move clockwise around the car if L7 is on.


Andy, wondering if Harman/JBL did release a CD or a DVD for demoing Logic7 processing? I know there's a Mercedes DVD (Harman Kardon S-Class Logic 7) but I can't find it for sale anywhere... 

Kelvin


----------



## kaigoss69

^^^ interested in this as well. I'm pretty sure Andy doesn't have one for the MS-8 (at least an official one that can be shared), but I would like to see if we can get someone to "share" the MB demo disk...


----------



## thehatedguy

That would be cool.


----------



## radarcontact

Set up my MS-8 a while ago, _fairly _happy with the results now that I utilized the "cover the tweeters on the first sweep" trick. That was after a LOT of trial and error, which I personally hate (unlike most of the people on this forum).

However, I'd like to tweek it some more, because *I think it can be better*. But I forget what it's set to right now. I want to be able to put it back if I get discouraged (IOW, pissed and frustrated).

Is there a way to "_read_" my current settings before I jack it up?

Thanks.


----------



## duro78

Your best bet is writing down all your setting before every calibration.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## radarcontact

duro78 said:


> Your best bet is writing down all your setting before every calibration.


I did. It was a while back; not sure where it's at.


iPad/TapaTalk


----------



## t3sn4f2

radarcontact said:


> Set up my MS-8 a while ago, _fairly _happy with the results now that I utilized the "cover the tweeters on the first sweep" trick. That was after a LOT of trial and error, which I personally hate (unlike most of the people on this forum).
> 
> However, I'd like to tweek it some more, because *I think it can be better*. But I forget what it's set to right now. I want to be able to put it back if I get discouraged (IOW, pissed and frustrated).
> 
> Is there a way to "_read_" my current settings before I jack it up?
> 
> Thanks.


Dunno, but one way I guess would be to turn off processing and measure the outputs with a signal analyzer. Looking for where the roll off begin and calculating the slope and points off that.


----------



## jerrychrist

Hey Andy,

So I still haven't tried switching to no sub, front hi-low as suggested since I had a decent tune, still with noticeable hole, but pretty good. But, now I don't think it is the calibration process, my speakers, poor locations, sealing, etc.

I bought a wire with a 3.5" connector and 2 rca to connect my ipod directly to the ms8. Same tune, just now playing with AUX instead of HU. Also for a note, when my ipod was plugged into the HU, it sounded about the same as the radio/CDs/HDD on my car. Now when connected directly to the ms8 the sounds is 100% different! I mean completely different, only running two 6.5" component sets and a sub and its one of the best sounding systems I've heard. And plenty of headroom! At least as compared to the amount of headroom I have when playing thru headunit. My leg leans against the door and it feels like massage chair there is so much midbass in my doors.

So since we know it isn't how the speakers are wired, or how I'm doing the calibration, what could be the issue when playing thru the HU setting on the ms8? What is different from AUX? Could there be so much EQing done in the HU the ms8 can't handle it? Could a wire be bad? Am I bypassing the factory amp when doing this? Could that be the problem?

I have sat radio, so I do like listening to that and running this way I lose my steering wheel and HU volume control which stinks. But at least I feel like I'm finally narrowing down my problem.

Thanks as always guys.


----------



## 14642

Jerry,
Please remind me which car you have and how MS-8 is connected to the raidio. If it sounds great with the iPod on AUX, then we need to investigate the input signal and the input EQ.


----------



## jerrychrist

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Jerry,
> Please remind me which car you have and how MS-8 is connected to the raidio. If it sounds great with the iPod on AUX, then we need to investigate the input signal and the input EQ.


Hey Andy, 

I have a 2011 Challenger RT Classic with 730n (the HU) with premium audio. I believe it goes: HU > factory amp > ms8 > aftermarket amps (for my 6.5 component and sub) > speakers. Also its a canbus system or whatever it is if that helps.


----------



## 14642

Jerry,
Disconnect the subwoofer output from the factory system from the MS-8's inputs and recalibrate using the CD. Try that. In may cars, the rest of the speakers are full range and the subwoofer is low-passed. That sometimes causes MS-8 to remove too much bass from the input signal.


----------



## jerrychrist

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Jerry,
> Disconnect the subwoofer output from the factory system from the MS-8's inputs and recalibrate using the CD. Try that. In may cars, the rest of the speakers are full range and the subwoofer is low-passed. That sometimes causes MS-8 to remove too much bass from the input signal.


That makes sense. So you are talking about the hi-level inputs on the ms8 right? Cluster of white wires? So when I do my calibration I select channels 3&4 for sub. Does than mean I disconnect 3&4 from the hi level inputs?


----------



## radarcontact

radarcontact said:


> Set up my MS-8 a while ago, _fairly _happy with the results now that I utilized the "cover the tweeters on the first sweep" trick. That was after a LOT of trial and error, which I personally hate (unlike most of the people on this forum).
> 
> However, I'd like to tweek it some more, because *I think it can be better*. But I forget what it's set to right now. I want to be able to put it back if I get discouraged (IOW, pissed and frustrated).
> 
> Is there a way to "_read_" my current settings before I jack it up?
> 
> Thanks.


Sorry for quoting myself...but

I thought I remembered reading that there was a trick to read EVERYTHING about the ms-8. No?


iPad/TapaTalk


----------



## jerrychrist

radarcontact said:


> Sorry for quoting myself...but
> 
> I thought I remembered reading that there was a trick to read EVERYTHING about the ms-8. No?
> 
> 
> iPad/TapaTalk


I don't think there is any way to save settings for calibration. You can save the graphic eq and other system levels, but that's it.


----------



## Orlandomfhoss

Yeah


----------



## altec

Hi, i've been lurking around for quite a while soaking things up. Now i have a question that needs help in answering. I would say I'm a noob with a little experience in audio. I might be getting an ms8 in the near future and do not want to break it. I have an 880prs headunit, ms6a comps, jl 10w6v2, and dls A7 already installed quite a while now. 

question: How would you go about connecting everything together if the system will be active (no passive for the comps)? Do you think it makes sense to use the ms8's amplified outputs to power additional speakers if i go 7.1?


----------



## GaborB

I'm in a "*Please wait...*" mode with my MS-8 and would like to get some advice to troubleshoot...

Some background:

I normally don't leave the display connected, only for calibration. I previously had blank screen issue, which was due to a broken socket on the MS-8 board. I then soldered wires directly to the PCB and the issue disappeared. Once I had the same "Please wait..." problem after re-connecting the display and that cured itself overnight (I can’t remember though whether I removed fuse or disconnected Rem-In/Power in order to get back to fully working condition)
Now I have all jack plugs/sockets replaced with a better quality 3.5mm ones, and no matter what I try – disconnect wires, reset device, press button on display back – nothing helps.
However, I measure no cable/plug broken: when checking cable continuity from the MS-8 PCB straight to the connector inside the display unit, I see no problem. 
Multimeter buzzes for all 4 inputs:
- L28 from board goes to display black cable
- L27 from board goes to display red cable
- L26 from board goes to display white cable
- L25 from board goes to display grey cable

I also measure +5V (4.98V or smthg) between red and black inside the display when the unit is turned on.
Some 3.2xV can also be measured in between white-black and grey-black, so I assume power reaches the display from the MS-8.

Now, what else shall I try? Should I do some more resets? Wait longer before switch the system back on? Would appreciate some advice as I’m pretty much stuck now and wanna do some new configuration asap.

Thanks for all the comments.
Gabor


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

radarcontact said:


> Sorry for quoting myself...but
> 
> I thought I remembered reading that there was a trick to read EVERYTHING about the ms-8. No?


Not that I am aware of, no. 

I think that the point of keeping that info inside the MS-8 was that it could be used as a 'shop tool' to do the initial measurements, then transcribe that data from the DSP and plug it into a different processor, eliminating the need for the end user (customer) to purchase and install (or actually keep) the MS-8.

If you could easily read the data from the device, what would stop people from buying it, grabbing the data, then just reselling it on FleaBay? In that case, it may destroy the market and prevent JBL from recouping their initial investment, let alone make a profit on the device.

Now, I don't doubt that there are 'engineering' screens and 'back doors' into the MS-8. If I had been on the design team, you can bet your ass that I would have been able to plug in to a Serial/USB port and read the data from the MS-8 in real time. But again, that's going to be an internal JBL kind of thing... and I doubt that it would ever be released to the general public.

If you forgot to write down the current settings in your MS-8, then the only real way to know what's going on with the settings is to use some test equipment to check each output as others mentioned above. Otherwise, it's time to re-do the setup. The only real issue is remembering what speaker went on each output channel, what the crossover setting is for each driver, what slope you want for each crossover point, and then run the sweeps. It's such a quick and easy way of doing things, I fail to see why you don't just start fresh and do it all over again? (While writing everything down this time.)

Mark


----------



## jerrychrist

jerrychrist said:


> That makes sense. So you are talking about the hi-level inputs on the ms8 right? Cluster of white wires? So when I do my calibration I select channels 3&4 for sub. Does than mean I disconnect 3&4 from the hi level inputs?


Can anyone familiar with the actual installation confirm this? I've gotten pretty good at the config and everything else, just not the physical installation.


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

jerrychrist said:


> Can anyone familiar with the actual installation confirm this? I've gotten pretty good at the config and everything else, just not the physical installation.


Yes, I think that's what Andy was saying. Some systems use an internal crossover inside the HU before the amps, some others use a crossover inside the amp(s), or a combination of the two. That's why the input setup is designed the way that it is... to be able to take a variety of inputs and then 'sum' the signal to be then processed and sent to the various output channels. 

In the case he cited above, some HU's do NOT have an internal crossover, so the signal intended for the main speakers is full range. In that case, the MS-8 may be looking at both sets of inputs then 'dialing back' the bass response improperly. 

By disconnecting the HU sub signal at the MS-8 channels 3 & 4 and reconfiguring the MS-8, it allows the MS-8 to focus on input channels 1 & 2 as a full range input, then send the correct signals to the various output channels. 

Unless I am somehow confused by what he meant?


----------



## jerrychrist

Fast Hot Rod said:


> Yes, I think that's what Andy was saying. Some systems use an internal crossover inside the HU before the amps, some others use a crossover inside the amp(s), or a combination of the two. That's why the input setup is designed the way that it is... to be able to take a variety of inputs and then 'sum' the signal to be then processed and sent to the various output channels.
> 
> In the case he cited above, some HU's do NOT have an internal crossover, so the signal intended for the main speakers is full range. In that case, the MS-8 may be looking at both sets of inputs then 'dialing back' the bass response improperly.
> 
> By disconnecting the HU sub signal at the MS-8 channels 3 & 4 and reconfiguring the MS-8, it allows the MS-8 to focus on input channels 1 & 2 as a full range input, then send the correct signals to the various output channels.
> 
> Unless I am somehow confused by what he meant?


Cool, that's how I took it as well, and it makes sense. I just wanted to make sure that those high level inputs do correspond to the channels selected during calibration.

So I take this to mean there is more to the final output level than just the calibration sweeps, correct? because its not like the bass was booming (at least from the sub) during those, but its just some kind of low frequency signal overload?


----------



## 14642

Guys, The high level inputs are NOT what you enter when you enter the channels. The INPUTS are analyzed automatically by MS-8. When you do "input Setup", MS-8 listens to the signal on the CD to determine which channels are left, which channels are right and which channels are mono. Then it determines whether each channel is a high-pass, full range, band pass or low pass and if there's any time alignment applied in the factory system. It daleys all the channels to match. then, it adds all the rights together, adds all the lefts together, applies a 200Hz low pass filter to mono channels and then adds them into the right and the left. MS-8 starts checking at channel 1, and it's important that it sees a channel that contains high frequencies before it sees a low frequency channel. that's why I suggest the subwoofer output of the factory system should be connected to channels 7 and/or 8.

When you assign channels, you're assigning the OUTPUT channels. MS-8 has no way to figure that out automatically. The setup CD is only for input setup. MS-8 generates the sweep signals for the acoustic calibration.


----------



## Neil_J

Why the 200 Hz low pass on mono channels?


----------



## taibanl

Andy,

We've all seen the various discussions on clicking and popping with MS-8 even when 2hooked up correctly.

By changing my configuration, I have gone full circle from:
1st) very loud pops - Speaker level outs + Sub on own channel
2nd) then fairly soft pops - Speaker level outs + Kaigoss Mod
3rd) now back to moderately loud pops. - Recoded HU to HiFi mode - Balanced Diff outs - Sub on own channel (Also now have all channels on JL HD series power)

While I am planning on going back to the kaigoss mod (for SQ/Midbass reasons) which may or may not help...I have another theory/question...

*The Technic Harness for BMW, uses a relay in line with the OEM HU remote signal. I think this relay is unnecessary for MS-8 systems but was included to ensure the voltage was strong enough for a range of aftermarket amps.


1) Should the OEM HU remote signal be sufficient to trigger MS-8?
2) is it possible, or likely that this relay could be causing popping issues and/or issues with analog noise floor?* (in addition to the digital processor noise I was asking about in a different thread this AM). I can say that the JL HDs are absolutely silent when MS-8 is muted.


----------



## jerrychrist

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Guys, The high level inputs are NOT what you enter when you enter the channels. The INPUTS are analyzed automatically by MS-8. When you do "input Setup", MS-8 listens to the signal on the CD to determine which channels are left, which channels are right and which channels are mono. Then it determines whether each channel is a high-pass, full range, band pass or low pass and if there's any time alignment applied in the factory system. It daleys all the channels to match. then, it adds all the rights together, adds all the lefts together, applies a 200Hz low pass filter to mono channels and then adds them into the right and the left. MS-8 starts checking at channel 1, and it's important that it sees a channel that contains high frequencies before it sees a low frequency channel. that's why I suggest the subwoofer output of the factory system should be connected to channels 7 and/or 8.
> 
> When you assign channels, you're assigning the OUTPUT channels. MS-8 has no way to figure that out automatically. The setup CD is only for input setup. MS-8 generates the sweep signals for the acoustic calibration.


Thanks for the response Andy. So is there any way to determine what hi level inputs to cut to achieve what you mentioned? To remove excessive lo pass signal from the HU?


----------



## 14642

Relay probbaly isn't necessary. MS-8 requires only 5V minimum and very little current.

Jerry, for you, my suggestion is just to disconnect the subwoofer output from the factory system that feeds MS-8's input and try calibrating again.


----------



## jhnkvn

Andy, last time I remember, tweets on the rear wasn't really that important if you want to engage Logic7 right? If then so, I'll be throwing a pair of 5" midbass drivers on them just to test Logic7.

I'm amazed that after a year of ownership, I'm still afraid to whack my dash for a dedicated center channel :worried: oh well, I guess I could always start at the rear


----------



## subwoofery

jhnkvn said:


> Andy, last time I remember, tweets on the rear wasn't really that important if you want to engage Logic7 right? If then so, I'll be throwing a pair of 5" midbass drivers on them just to test Logic7.
> 
> I'm amazed that after a year of ownership, I'm still afraid to whack my dash for a dedicated center channel :worried: oh well, I guess I could always start at the rear


It's the opposite, rears require a tweeter around ear level to work properly - if you want to use your rear bottom of the door location for your mid, you HAVE TO install a tweeter in the upper part of your door... 

Kelvin


----------



## nineball

subwoofery said:


> It's the opposite, rears require a tweeter around ear level to work properly - if you want to use your rear bottom of the door location for your mid, you HAVE TO install a tweeter in the upper part of your door...
> 
> Kelvin


well that sucks. looks like i have to hack up another set of door panels since my rears are located in the bottom.


----------



## subwoofery

nineball said:


> well that sucks. looks like i have to hack up another set of door panels since my rears are located in the bottom.


Just install the tweeter up high, Andy said it would be fine  

Kelvin


----------



## nineball

subwoofery said:


> Just install the tweeter up high, Andy said it would be fine
> 
> Kelvin


to do that i have to hack the door panel. the rear speakers are just above the bottom of the door and i was just going to grab a set of mirus 5x7 to make life easier.


----------



## subwoofery

nineball said:


> to do that i have to hack the door panel. the rear speakers are just above the bottom of the door and i was just going to grab a set of mirus 5x7 to make life easier.


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1545651-post7412.html 

Kelvin


----------



## 14642

nineball said:


> to do that i have to hack the door panel. the rear speakers are just above the bottom of the door and i was just going to grab a set of mirus 5x7 to make life easier.


 
So just put a coaxial in the bottom of the door and try it.


----------



## nineball

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So just put a coaxial in the bottom of the door and try it.


i'm not casually building this system up, hell i bought my new car specifically for the ease of installing a center channel in the dash (ok maybe not specifically but it was one of my top 3 things considered). you posted before that the rear/side should have tweets and that they should be up high. if that will potentially yield the best results a spare set of door panels is well worth the cost, at least to me.


----------



## rcurley55

I'm having some odd behavior with my MS-8. 

Some background - I am usually setup as follows:
Morel Hybrid Ovation 4" comp set (passive) in the front doors
8" midbasses under the seats
Morel Integra Ovation 4" co-ax (passive) for the center
Morel Temp 4" co-ax for the rears
JL12W6v2 for a sub.

Everything is powered by a JL HD600/4 and 900/5 (150 x 5 + 100 x 2 + 500 x 1). All of this is in factory locations in my 2010 BMW 535i.

To rid myself of the bluetooth echo, I applied the firmware update. This required me to dump my tune and start from scratch. I've been trying to track down some alternator whine, so I calibrated as follows to start simple:

Sub - 1 - LP @ 80 Hz @ 24 slope
Front - 2 way HP @ 200 Hz @ 24 slope

What I get is a center that is clustered to the FAR right. Everything is just dead to the right. Far left is still left - and this is with L7 on or off and processing active. I turned off the processing, and everything returns to what you would expect from an unprocessed system. All the sweeps were of similar volume and come from the correct speakers. I also reset the system between the two calibrations I did (both yielding the same results).

Any clue what is going on?

In my previous setup with a center channel and Logic 7, I got a much better center channel (although it would wander from time to time).

So what is wrong?


----------



## kaigoss69

rcurley55 said:


> I'm having some odd behavior with my MS-8.
> 
> Some background - I am usually setup as follows:
> Morel Hybrid Ovation 4" comp set (passive) in the front doors
> 8" midbasses under the seats
> Morel Integra Ovation 4" co-ax (passive) for the center
> Morel Temp 4" co-ax for the rears
> JL12W6v2 for a sub.
> 
> Everything is powered by a JL HD600/4 and 900/5 (150 x 5 + 100 x 2 + 500 x 1). All of this is in factory locations in my 2010 BMW 535i.
> 
> To rid myself of the bluetooth echo, I applied the firmware update. This required me to dump my tune and start from scratch. I've been trying to track down some alternator whine, so I calibrated as follows to start simple:
> 
> Sub - 1 - LP @ 80 Hz @ 24 slope
> Front - 2 way HP @ 200 Hz @ 24 slope
> 
> What I get is a center that is clustered to the FAR right. Everything is just dead to the right. Far left is still left - and this is with L7 on or off and processing active. I turned off the processing, and everything returns to what you would expect from an unprocessed system. All the sweeps were of similar volume and come from the correct speakers. I also reset the system between the two calibrations I did (both yielding the same results).
> 
> Any clue what is going on?
> 
> In my previous setup with a center channel and Logic 7, I got a much better center channel (although it would wander from time to time).
> 
> So what is wrong?


I would say check the polarity of the front mids. If you didn't change any wiring, this would be unusual...


----------



## taibanl

@rcurley

Microphone disconnected/inop?

I only ask because I've scratched my own head on a similar doh moment.


----------



## jerrychrist

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Relay probbaly isn't necessary. MS-8 requires only 5V minimum and very little current.
> 
> Jerry, for you, my suggestion is just to disconnect the subwoofer output from the factory system that feeds MS-8's input and try calibrating again.


Does anyone know where to start with this? It would be the same thing to just cut the wire that is input to the ms8 right? I have a 2011 Dodge Challenger with the mygig 730n rhr head unit if that helps. I've done google searching and couldn't find anything that answers this.


----------



## 14642

Jerry, who did your installation? If there's a factory sub and they followed the directions, then the sub is proably hooked up to inputs 7 and/or 8.


----------



## jerrychrist

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Jerry, who did your installation? If there's a factory sub and they followed the directions, then the sub is proably hooked up to inputs 7 and/or 8.


I will see if I can get ahold of him. There are RCA outputs, but the input is just a plastic plug, maybe a few inches long, with 16 (8 across, 2 deep) wires. 10 of those are wired going places, and 6 are just cut going to nothing. Here is a picture.

Should I get a PAC to convert to RCA?

Also, yes it has a factory sub.

The outputs are on channels 3 and 4, but I'm not sure about the inputs. He had an MS8 in his Challenger and loved it, and is actually the one that recommended it to me, but he originally had the base radio with no sub. When I told him about what you said, he mentioned the PAC thing. Also, he lives no where near me, so I can't just pop back over and troubleshoot.


----------



## rcurley55

taibanl said:


> @rcurley
> 
> Microphone disconnected/inop?
> 
> I only ask because I've scratched my own head on a similar doh moment.


I reseated it prior to the calibration. To my knowledge it works fine, but I have no way to test.


----------



## rcurley55

kaigoss69 said:


> I would say check the polarity of the front mids. If you didn't change any wiring, this would be unusual...


Didn't touch the wiring at all, just reassigned outputs in the MS-8 and recalibrated. There are 6 connections between the amplifier and the speaker. Any way to test easily without ripping the whole car apart other than just listening? Oh and I don't have a visual on the cones.

I guess I can use an in-phase/out-of-phase track with the MS-8 bypassed and just the front components hooked up.


----------



## Lorin

I have searched the "kaigoss method" and re-read through those posts to try to get some additional midbass working. I seem to recall (but unable to find) someone saying to try turning the sub off (disconnect) during the first or second sweep? I dont recall which sweep to negate? I have a "bass knob" up front so it is easily done, just dont remember at what point I should turn it down while setting it up? Which sweep does timing, and which is for gain matching?


----------



## Shinju

Anyone have some feedback on how "good" the internal amplifier is on this piece? I am thinking about putting one in the wife's 03 4Runner with the JBL Synthisis system 10 speaker system (not using the rear door locations, rear cargo door pillar speakers).

I plan on using the front doors, tweeters, dash center channel and sub for 6 channels.


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

Shinju said:


> Anyone have some feedback on how "good" the internal amplifier is on this piece? I am thinking about putting one in the wife's 03 4Runner with the JBL Synthisis system 10 speaker system (not using the rear door locations, rear cargo door pillar speakers).
> 
> I plan on using the front doors, tweeters, dash center channel and sub for 6 channels.


I guess it all depends on what you mean by "good." 

The MS-8 is rated at 20 watts X 8 channels into 4 ohms. (30 WPC @ 2 ohms.) Signal to Noise (line to line) is >90 dB or (line to speaker) >85 dB. 

If you can, I would utilize the remaining two MS-8 channels to power the rear speakers. 

I thought the MS-8 was sufficient to drive the three front 3.5" speakers in my Corvette... but I did it just to see if I could make it 'plug-and-play' and replace the Bose amp. (It worked rather well, actually.) Future plans call for external amplification, new drivers, etc...

Does that JBL system in her 4Runner have it's own amplifiers?


----------



## Shinju

Fast Hot Rod said:


> I guess it all depends on what you mean by "good."
> 
> The MS-8 is rated at 20 watts X 8 channels into 4 ohms. (30 WPC @ 2 ohms.) Signal to Noise (line to line) is >90 dB or (line to speaker) >85 dB.
> 
> If you can, I would utilize the remaining two MS-8 channels to power the rear speakers.
> 
> I thought the MS-8 was sufficient to drive the three front 3.5" speakers in my Corvette... but I did it just to see if I could make it 'plug-and-play' and replace the Bose amp. (It worked rather well, actually.) Future plans call for external amplification, new drivers, etc...
> 
> Does that JBL system in her 4Runner have it's own amplifiers?


Yes it has one giant JBL OEM amplifier, there are 10 drivers in the car 9 + 8" sub.

I am pretty sure the OEM amplifier is 18rms if that. It is located by the rear subwoofer on the passenger side under the plastics.


----------



## kaigoss69

Lorin said:


> I have searched the "kaigoss method" and re-read through those posts to try to get some additional midbass working. I seem to recall (but unable to find) someone saying to try turning the sub off (disconnect) during the first or second sweep? I dont recall which sweep to negate? I have a "bass knob" up front so it is easily done, just dont remember at what point I should turn it down while setting it up? Which sweep does timing, and which is for gain matching?


The point is not to have the sub connected to the MS-8 at all. Just calibrate with the midbass drivers playing all the way down. If you want, you can connect the sub off the midbass amp and have it "present" during sweeps, but I have not found any advantages in doing that.


----------



## jerrychrist

jerrychrist said:


> I will see if I can get ahold of him. There are RCA outputs, but the input is just a plastic plug, maybe a few inches long, with 16 (8 across, 2 deep) wires. 10 of those are wired going places, and 6 are just cut going to nothing. Here is a picture.
> 
> Should I get a PAC to convert to RCA?
> 
> Also, yes it has a factory sub.
> 
> The outputs are on channels 3 and 4, but I'm not sure about the inputs. He had an MS8 in his Challenger and loved it, and is actually the one that recommended it to me, but he originally had the base radio with no sub. When I told him about what you said, he mentioned the PAC thing. Also, he lives no where near me, so I can't just pop back over and troubleshoot.


Anyone have an idea? If you look at my post toward the top of this page i also included a picture.


----------



## jerrychrist

I feel like I'm so close to figuring this out, it could be a matter of cutting a wire but I just don't know which one... can anyone take a look at the picture and possibly help. Or let me know what exactly to google so I can find it myself?


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

jerrychrist said:


> I will see if I can get ahold of him. There are RCA outputs, but the input is just a plastic plug, maybe a few inches long, with 16 (8 across, 2 deep) wires. 10 of those are wired going places, and 6 are just cut going to nothing. Here is a picture.


The picture that you have showing here is the 'input' side of the MS-8. There are two sets of inputs on the MS-8: Line level inputs (RCA) and Hi Level inputs (speaker wires.) Your MS-8 appears to be connected using Hi Level inputs 1-6. I'm not sure why he is using six inputs... were the factory front speakers in your car a component set split between woofers/tweeters? (The center and/or rear speaker wires from the HU do not need to be connected to the inputs to the MS-8. Look at page 9 of your manual for more details.) If so, then that would explain inputs 1-4 (LL, LH, RL, RH) but not inputs 5 & 6. As Andy said, if your car has a factory sub and it's connected to the MS-8, then it should have been connected to input 7 and/or input 8. Maybe he connected the HU sub output to the MS-8 inputs 5 & 6?

Looks to me as if it simply wasn't connected properly... but without knowing where the different wires are going, it's impossible to know what the installer did in your car. 

I can't believe that the MS-8 wiring for that plug was cut off so short... I'd not be too happy about that.  I'm also surprised that the positive battery connection doesn't have any heat shrink on the barrel of the terminal. At the very least, it should have some tape on it to prevent any accidental contact. 



> Should I get a PAC to convert to RCA?


No. The MS-8 does not need a PAC adapter because it has both line level and hi level inputs. 



> Also, yes it has a factory sub.
> 
> The outputs are on channels 3 and 4, but I'm not sure about the inputs.


Are you saying that the MS-8 is using output channels 3 & 4 for the subwoofer? Are you still using the factory subwoofer, or a new sub box, or both? What are channels 1 & 2 connected to? Are there any other connections to the MS-8? (I'm sorry if I missed this info in another post.)



> He had an MS8 in his Challenger and loved it, and is actually the one that recommended it to me, but he originally had the base radio with no sub. When I told him about what you said, he mentioned the PAC thing. Also, he lives no where near me, so I can't just pop back over and troubleshoot.


Time to get them to put down on paper how they hooked things up, then compare that to the actual wiring. Can you get some more pictures of the MS-8, specifically the output connections on the other side? I'd also like to see where all of the wires connect to the factory HU and what the installer was trying to accomplish.


----------



## altec

Hi, I was wondering if the ms-8 should be set up for surround or plain stereo for iasca/meca competition in sq? in other words... can the surround beat stereo in sound quality?


----------



## blownrunner

ANDY:

I was having problems with my MS-8 in that it would shut off and restart uncommanded and/or the display would lock up, and was wrestling with the problem for over a year. It ended up being my JBL BP2200.1 amp, that whenever it was powered up and connected via RCA's to the MS-8 outputs the fore-mentioned problems happened.

Being a team JBL member, I gave the amplifier to Jeremy Brenner at SBN 2012 in Daytona so your engineering boys could figure out why it was making the MS-8 go crazy. He also said there was a problem with certain Cadillac vehicles when installed, as I recall so I thought this could be a good opportunity for some quality troubleshooting. It has been about eight months now since I offered up my amp, and was wondering what conclusions you might have diagnosed from it?

Thanks for a great product!


----------



## blownrunner

altec said:


> Hi, I was wondering if the ms-8 should be set up for surround or plain stereo for iasca/meca competition in sq? in other words... can the surround beat stereo in sound quality?


Read the sanctioning bodies' rulebook on how a system is judged and aim for those results. It will take trial and error on your part and any successes of failures of using rear speakers for one competitor does not guarantee such a failure or success for you. In short, it will take time and effort on your part.


----------



## BuickGN

Mine is now all over the place. Sometimes when I start the car it's bass heavy and muddy. Sometimes it's so bright I just turn it off. Seems to be somewhat temperature related, on cooler days it sounds great. Sometimes I can turn the engine off, restart and everything is fine.


----------



## JJAZ

BuickGN said:


> Mine is now all over the place. Sometimes when I start the car it's bass heavy and muddy. Sometimes it's so bright I just turn it off. Seems to be somewhat temperature related, on cooler days it sounds great. Sometimes I can turn the engine off, restart and everything is fine.


I had a similar issue, with my tweeters sometimes not playing when the weather got colder.

But in my case it was my Helix A4 amplifier, that didn't turn on if the voltage is high (14.4V charging) and the weather cold.


----------



## jerrychrist

Fast Hot Rod said:


> The picture that you have showing here is the 'input' side of the MS-8. There are two sets of inputs on the MS-8: Line level inputs (RCA) and Hi Level inputs (speaker wires.) Your MS-8 appears to be connected using Hi Level inputs 1-6. I'm not sure why he is using six inputs... were the factory front speakers in your car a component set split between woofers/tweeters? (The center and/or rear speaker wires from the HU do not need to be connected to the inputs to the MS-8. Look at page 9 of your manual for more details.) If so, then that would explain inputs 1-4 (LL, LH, RL, RH) but not inputs 5 & 6. As Andy said, if your car has a factory sub and it's connected to the MS-8, then it should have been connected to input 7 and/or input 8. Maybe he connected the HU sub output to the MS-8 inputs 5 & 6?
> 
> Looks to me as if it simply wasn't connected properly... but without knowing where the different wires are going, it's impossible to know what the installer did in your car.
> 
> I can't believe that the MS-8 wiring for that plug was cut off so short... I'd not be too happy about that.  I'm also surprised that the positive battery connection doesn't have any heat shrink on the barrel of the terminal. At the very least, it should have some tape on it to prevent any accidental contact.
> 
> 
> 
> No. The MS-8 does not need a PAC adapter because it has both line level and hi level inputs.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying that the MS-8 is using output channels 3 & 4 for the subwoofer? Are you still using the factory subwoofer, or a new sub box, or both? What are channels 1 & 2 connected to? Are there any other connections to the MS-8? (I'm sorry if I missed this info in another post.)
> 
> 
> 
> Time to get them to put down on paper how they hooked things up, then compare that to the actual wiring. Can you get some more pictures of the MS-8, specifically the output connections on the other side? I'd also like to see where all of the wires connect to the factory HU and what the installer was trying to accomplish.


Thanks for the response.

The factory setup has 6x9s in the doors, 3 3.5" speakers by the windshield (left, center, right) two rear speakers and a sub. I replaced the 6x9s with 6.5 components, and put the woofer in the door and the tweeters in the 3.5" l/r areas. I read the manual a while back, and it said it doesn't matter how many inputs you have so long as you have full left and full right signal, so that's what you are referring to right?

Also, right now I'm using the passive xovers that came with my JL c5650s, so 1 output for FL and 1 output for FR.

Yes, I use output channel 3 and 4 for the sub, which is aftermarket, factory one is disconnected.

I know I don't have an output or calibration problem because when I connect my Ipod directly to the MS8 it sounds amazing. Its just when trying to incorporate the HU that I have horrible midbass problems. Andy previously mentioned it might just be too much sub signal (from an extra low pass for the factory sub or something) from HU so the MS8 pulls it back far too much. If I knew which connectors were truly needed for a full range signal I would cut the rest, but I have no idea how to determine that. Is there ANY way to figure that out? By that, I mean could at least a professional installer be able to tell what to do?


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

jerrychrist said:


> The factory setup has 6x9s in the doors, 3 3.5" speakers by the windshield (left, center, right) two rear speakers and a sub. I replaced the 6x9s with 6.5 components, and put the woofer in the door and the tweeters in the 3.5" l/r areas. I read the manual a while back, and it said it doesn't matter how many inputs you have so long as you have full left and full right signal, so that's what you are referring to right?


Correct, that it what I was talking about. I was questioning why you were using those six input channels on the MS-8. I just went back and read what vehicle you have from this post:



jerrychrist said:


> I have a 2011 Challenger RT Classic with 730n (the HU) with premium audio. I believe it goes: HU > factory amp > ms8 > aftermarket amps (for my 6.5 component and sub) > speakers. Also its a canbus system or whatever it is if that helps.


The Dodge/Chrysler vehicles with premium sound systems have a HU with a non-variable output signal. By that I mean, when you adjust the volume on the HU, it doesn't change the volume from the signal going from the HU to the factory amplifier. 

As you said the car has a Can-Bus, and Can-Bus is a communications protocol that allows the vehicles various components to talk to each other.

In this case, the HU sends the audio signal to the factory amplifier. The volume control in the HU sends a signal via Can-Bus to the amplifier to control it's output level. 

Earlier you mentioned the potential use of a PAC adapter. The only thing that a PAC adapter would do for you in this case would be to 'act' like the factory amplifier doing duty as your volume control. It connects to the L&R signals from the HU and to the Can-Bus, providing a variable output controlled by your volume control. If you decided to go this route, you would remove the high level inputs to the MS-8 and simply connect one pair of RCA's from the PAC adapter to inputs 1&2 of the MS-8.

But before you spend the money, maybe we can figure out what's going on with your system as it is today. 

The amplifier in your system also acts as a 'crossover' and 'processor' of sorts, directing the two audio input channels towards the eight speakers in your car. My assumption is that you have a basic two-way for left and right (6x9 and 3.5" driver) a derived center channel, rear left and right, and the sub. 

As stated in the manual, the MS-8 can look at up to 8 channels and be able to 'figure out' what processing was done from the factory system and then 'recombine' everything into two audio signals. (L&R) 

So my question would be this: Why are there six input channels being used on your MS-8? Does the factory subwoofer have independent left and right inputs, or just a single input? If it has two inputs, then that might explain why six inputs were used on the MS-8 for your install... perhaps the factory amplifier split the L & R channels into a 3-way system? For example:

"L&R" - Sub: 20-80 HZ
L&R - 6x9: 80-400 HZ
L&R - 3.5": 400-20kHZ

If not, then only 5 inputs should have been used: 1-4 then 7 or 8 for the sub. But going back to what I think that Andy was saying earlier, perhaps the front channels are a 2-way configuration? Like this:

Sub: *20*-80HZ
L&R - 6x9: *20*-400 HZ
L&R - 3.5": 400-20kHZ

In that case, I would think that by removing the wires from the MS-8 high level input channels 5 & 6 and re-running the CD portion of the setup just might fix the issues you are having. Does this make sense?



> Andy previously mentioned it might just be too much sub signal (from an extra low pass for the factory sub or something) from HU so the MS8 pulls it back far too much.


That's what I think might be happening as well. Without a factory schematic, it's hard to tell for sure.



> If I knew which connectors were truly needed for a full range signal I would cut the rest, but I have no idea how to determine that. Is there ANY way to figure that out? By that, I mean could at least a professional installer be able to tell what to do?


Therein lies the problem. We need a factory schematic to be ale to tell which wires come from the factory amplifier and what they do. We need to know which are positive vs. negative, and so on. Can you get a copy from somewhere?



> I know I don't have an output or calibration problem because when I connect my Ipod directly to the MS8 it sounds amazing. Its just when trying to incorporate the HU that I have horrible midbass problems.


Yep... that makes sense. If you can, try and see if you can get some idea of what the MS-8 inputs are wired to in the car. Make sure that the MS-8 inputs 1-4 are used for the factory front L&R speakers. Remove the factory sub signal from the MS-8 and recalibrate and see how it sounds. Maybe your local Dodge dealer has the schematic on file and would be kind enough to give you a copy? That way, we might be able to figure out what's going on.


----------



## Sgriffin

I used the PAC adapter on my 730n with Boston 6 speaker system on my Challenger srt8 and jbl ms-8. I only used it because I got it at a great price. It works well for giving a full range signal, only problem I have had is that the Nav volume seems to be linked with master volume. If I turn it up it only plays if the master volume is up also. The Nav volume does work just doesn't get louder than current master volume. Not sure if this is a gain, 730n, or a PAC problem. Phone works like it should. 

I originally used an Audio Control Lcq-1 and went with line level. I got my color odes and schematic from this site: https://techauthorityonlinedemo.extra.chrysler.com/service/repair/wiring/view/classic.htm


----------



## 14642

jerrychrist said:


> Thanks for the response.
> 
> The factory setup has 6x9s in the doors, 3 3.5" speakers by the windshield (left, center, right) two rear speakers and a sub. I replaced the 6x9s with 6.5 components, and put the woofer in the door and the tweeters in the 3.5" l/r areas. I read the manual a while back, and it said it doesn't matter how many inputs you have so long as you have full left and full right signal, so that's what you are referring to right?
> 
> Also, right now I'm using the passive xovers that came with my JL c5650s, so 1 output for FL and 1 output for FR.
> 
> Yes, I use output channel 3 and 4 for the sub, which is aftermarket, factory one is disconnected.
> 
> I know I don't have an output or calibration problem because when I connect my Ipod directly to the MS8 it sounds amazing. Its just when trying to incorporate the HU that I have horrible midbass problems. Andy previously mentioned it might just be too much sub signal (from an extra low pass for the factory sub or something) from HU so the MS8 pulls it back far too much. If I knew which connectors were truly needed for a full range signal I would cut the rest, but I have no idea how to determine that. Is there ANY way to figure that out? By that, I mean could at least a professional installer be able to tell what to do?


Disconnect the output from the factory system that drives the factory sub from MS-8's inputs. That'll probably solve the problem.


----------



## theoldguy

I got the dreaded "please wait..." screen this past weekend. Thing that pisses me off is this is only the 2nd time trying to use the screen since I bought it in June. what a piece of crap. I called JBL tech support. Their idea of help is "press the reset button". Do you really think I didnt try that? Do they not realize that your average [email protected] person isnt going to be the person buying this unit and trying to troubleshoot it when something goes wrong. the MS-8 is definitely a piece of equipment that more experienced people are going to purchase and install themselves. pisses me off. Looks like I will have to send it in for warranty work - no thanks to the barely english speaking guy named "Carl" in tech support. lol


----------



## jerrychrist

Hey Fast Hot Rod and Andy,

Thanks for the help, I know I'm making this a lot harder by not having a firm understanding of how everything is connected. I posted on my challenger forum so hopefully I can get an answer on which HU outputs (ms8 inputs) are causing the problem.

Thanks sgriffin for the diagrams. I took a look and unfortunately I have no idea what I'm looking at, heh.


----------



## subwoofery

theoldguy said:


> I got the dreaded "please wait..." screen this past weekend. Thing that pisses me off is this is only the 2nd time trying to use the screen since I bought it in June. what a piece of crap. I called JBL tech support. Their idea of help is "press the reset button". Do you really think I didnt try that? Do they not realize that your average [email protected] person isnt going to be the person buying this unit and trying to troubleshoot it when something goes wrong. the MS-8 is definitely a piece of equipment that more experienced people are going to purchase and install themselves. pisses me off. Looks like I will have to send it in for warranty work - no thanks to the barely english speaking guy named "Carl" in tech support. lol


Are you sure your mic is well plugged? I seem to have read something about it... 

Kelvin


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

jerrychrist said:


> Hey Fast Hot Rod and Andy,
> 
> Thanks for the help, I know I'm making this a lot harder by not having a firm understanding of how everything is connected. I posted on my challenger forum so hopefully I can get an answer on which HU outputs (ms8 inputs) are causing the problem.
> 
> Thanks sgriffin for the diagrams. I took a look and unfortunately I have no idea what I'm looking at, heh.


Thanks to *Sgriffin* for the diagrams. 

I entered the information from your car and then checked the diagrams... if you want to do the same, look in the left hand column in Section 47 - Audio and Video.

From there, scroll down to 47-005-005 Subwoofer and open up the sub-menus. You want to look at the diagrams called "Connectors" under Amplifier - Radio C1 and Amplifier - Radio C2. Look at the diagrams for each one... they show every wire, it's plug info, color, and location.

Just as we suspected, the amplifier has eight outputs:

*Left Dash: X209 GY-OR (+) and X299 GY-YL (-)
Left Door: X201 GY-VT (+) and X291 GY-YL (-)

Center: X200 GY-BR (+) and X290 GY-OR (-)

Right Dash: X208 GY-DG (+) and X298 GY-LG (-)
Right Door: X202 DG-VT (+) and X292 DG-YL (-)

Left Rear: X303 DG-TN (+) and X393 DG-GY (-)
Right Rear: X394 YL-GY (+) and X304 DG-BR (-)

Subwoofer: X300 GY-BR (+) and X390 DG-BR (-)*

From what I gather, you'll only want to use the left dash, left door, right dash and right door outputs from the amplifier to four of the MS-8 inputs. Take a look at what you have connected and write everything down so we can see what's going on. If you can take pictures of the wiring at the factory amp and at the MS-8 that show clearly where everything is connected, it will be a big help. I'm not sure why your MS-8 has six inputs wired up, so I'd like to see why it was wired that way and what everything is connected to there. 

Get that info and get back to us... surely we can get this thing figured out. :thumbsup:


----------



## jerrychrist

Awesome thanks again. Do you think I'll be getting full range just using l/r door and dash? 

It has been about 6 mo since he did the install, so there may be some details forgotten/confused, but here is what he wrote:

"I'm pretty sure the wires we hooked up were the front mids, front tweeters, and the subwoofer, which would be inputs 1-5. Could try removing the subwoofer input. I do not think the front door speakers play super low though. Could also try the rear 6x9s but be careful because the stock system attenuates them around in the low-mid 20 volume range. 

He can't tap the leads off his headunit, it does not work with his system, the leads have to be tapped after the amp."

That second part was in response to someone else about how it was hooked up.

Also, I'm trying to get as much info as possible to tell to a prof installer. I can't do this work myself and it seems whenever I go to an installer I end up out another $100-$200 and nothing gets fixed.


----------



## theoldguy

subwoofery said:


> Are you sure your mic is well plugged? I seem to have read something about it...
> 
> Kelvin


yep. all connections are well made and secure. Even tried disconnecting everything and reconnecting from scratch. from all my searching, this is a fairly common issue. Only way to fix it is to send it in.


----------



## jerrychrist

To further my prev post, and now that I have a little more understanding, here was his last reply:

"1. Front Left Dash
2. Front Left Door
3. Front Right Dash
4. Front Right Door
5. Subwoofer

#5 Might be the center channel but I recall lacking bass and hooking up the subwoofer one. In fact I think this correct because I believe the center channel caused issues with the MS-8 to get a proper signal."

Could my problem be as simple as hooking inputs 5 to inputs 7 or 8 as per the manual?


----------



## subwoofery

theoldguy said:


> yep. all connections are well made and secure. Even tried disconnecting everything and reconnecting from scratch. from all my searching, this is a fairly common issue. Only way to fix it is to send it in.





alachua said:


> *Problem: Display unit shows the message "Please Wait" for an extended period of time.*
> 
> Solution: The display cable is not securely plugged in on either the main unit or display unit.


Kelvin


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

jerrychrist said:


> To further my prev post, and now that I have a little more understanding, here was his last reply:
> 
> "1. Front Left Dash
> 2. Front Left Door
> 3. Front Right Dash
> 4. Front Right Door
> 5. Subwoofer
> 
> #5 Might be the center channel but I recall lacking bass and hooking up the subwoofer one. In fact I think this correct because I believe the center channel caused issues with the MS-8 to get a proper signal."
> 
> Could my problem be as simple as hooking inputs 5 to inputs 7 or 8 as per the manual?


Yes, it may very well be the issue. You really don't have much to lose by moving the wires from the MS-8 Input 5 to Input 8 and re-running the acoustic calibration. Just make sure you go over the MS-8 instruction manual before hand to make sure you aren't missing any steps.

If it were my car, I would go back over all of the wiring, just to make sure what connections were made where. It's important to have the polarity right, and there isn't any reason to have the rear or center channels connected to the MS-8 so I'd double check that, too. Better safe than sorry, and all of that.

Best of luck to you.


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

jerrychrist said:


> Awesome thanks again. Do you think I'll be getting full range just using l/r door and dash?


I have no idea. 

It's worth a shot, though... disconnecting a wire or two is as simple as cutting it. Re-run the calibration and see how it sounds. If it sucks, then reconnect those wires to the MS-8 Input 8.



> Also, I'm trying to get as much info as possible to tell to a prof installer. I can't do this work myself and it seems whenever I go to an installer I end up out another $100-$200 and nothing gets fixed.


I can understand your frustration. Have you reached out to any DIYMA folks in your area? You may be surprised at how many people are willing to help you out. If you were in the OKC area, I'd meet up and give you a hand.


----------



## jfkaiser

Has anyone seen a firmware update for the ms-8
The only one I have seen is the one associated with the Bluetooth echo cancellation issue and I was UNABLE to get that to be recognized by Windows
Anyway, Just wondering if JBL has ever released a firmware update?
Thx,
Jon


----------



## t3sn4f2

jfkaiser said:


> Has anyone seen a firmware update for the ms-8
> The only one I have seen is the one associated with the Bluetooth echo cancellation issue and I was UNABLE to get that to be recognized by Windows
> Anyway, Just wondering if JBL has ever released a firmware update?
> Thx,
> Jon


No updates as of yet. Other than the one you mentioned.


----------



## jerrychrist

Fast Hot Rod said:


> Yes, it may very well be the issue. You really don't have much to lose by moving the wires from the MS-8 Input 5 to Input 8 and re-running the acoustic calibration. Just make sure you go over the MS-8 instruction manual before hand to make sure you aren't missing any steps.
> 
> If it were my car, I would go back over all of the wiring, just to make sure what connections were made where. It's important to have the polarity right, and there isn't any reason to have the rear or center channels connected to the MS-8 so I'd double check that, too. Better safe than sorry, and all of that.
> 
> Best of luck to you.


Yeah other than the physical connections, I have my steps down. From when I first started troubleshooting I've run that calibration at least a hundred times. I'm pretty sure polarity and wiring is good, because it sounds great when my ipod is directly connected to the ms8, its just that HU.



Fast Hot Rod said:


> I have no idea.
> 
> It's worth a shot, though... disconnecting a wire or two is as simple as cutting it. Re-run the calibration and see how it sounds. If it sucks, then reconnect those wires to the MS-8 Input 8.
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand your frustration. Have you reached out to any DIYMA folks in your area? You may be surprised at how many people are willing to help you out. If you were in the OKC area, I'd meet up and give you a hand.


No I haven't but def a good idea if this doesn't fix it. I cut my hand pretty bad so it'll probably be two weeks before I can try this stuff out. Thanks again for the help.


----------



## theoldguy

subwoofery said:


> Kelvin


thanks for the tip. The connection is as secure as it can get. I tried wiggling the cables to see if it would make a difference at all. Still displaying the please wait. Ill just have to send it in I guess.


----------



## fuji6

jerrychrist said:


> Yeah other than the physical connections, I have my steps down. From when I first started troubleshooting I've run that calibration at least a hundred times. I'm pretty sure polarity and wiring is good, because it sounds great when my ipod is directly connected to the ms8, its just that HU.
> 
> 
> 
> No I haven't but def a good idea if this doesn't fix it. I cut my hand pretty bad so it'll probably be two weeks before I can try this stuff out. Thanks again for the help.


Hey Jerry, how about installing something like this in between your input wires and MS8. Barrier Strip 5 Row 090-844 then you can swap the inputs around to your hearts content. At the very least the time it takes to install something like this could be made up when experimenting to get it set right.


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

jerrychrist said:


> I'm pretty sure polarity and wiring is good, because it sounds great when my ipod is directly connected to the ms8, its just that HU.


I'm NOT talking about the polarity of the MS-8 outputs, I'm talking about the polarity of the inputs to the MS-8 from the factory Dodge amplifier. A mistake there will not show up when you have your iPod connected, but I'd bet money that it screws with the setup and acoustic calibration. That's why I keep mentioning it over, and over, and over... 



> Thanks again for the help.


You're welcome. :thumbsup:


----------



## jerrychrist

fuji6 said:


> Hey Jerry, how about installing something like this in between your input wires and MS8. Barrier Strip 5 Row 090-844 then you can swap the inputs around to your hearts content. At the very least the time it takes to install something like this could be made up when experimenting to get it set right.


Not totally sure how to use this, but at this point I'm not looking to experiment, I just want to get it set and never mess with it again, heh. Ironically the person who suggested the ms8 and the positive reviews I've read was to take the tinkering OUT of car audio. Thanks for the suggestion.. just have 6 months of built up frustration.



Fast Hot Rod said:


> I'm NOT talking about the polarity of the MS-8 outputs, I'm talking about the polarity of the inputs to the MS-8 from the factory Dodge amplifier. A mistake there will not show up when you have your iPod connected, but I'd bet money that it screws with the setup and acoustic calibration. That's why I keep mentioning it over, and over, and over...
> 
> 
> 
> You're welcome. :thumbsup:


Ahh I see what you mean. Well I will mention that to the installer whenever I go if the switch from input 5 to 8 doesn't fix it.


----------



## 14642

Fast Hot Rod said:


> I'm NOT talking about the polarity of the MS-8 outputs, I'm talking about the polarity of the inputs to the MS-8 from the factory Dodge amplifier. A mistake there will not show up when you have your iPod connected, but I'd bet money that it screws with the setup and acoustic calibration. That's why I keep mentioning it over, and over, and over...
> 
> 
> 
> You're welcome. :thumbsup:


 
Oops. Not correct. MS-8 checks the polarity of the inputs and corrects them. It doesn't do that on the outputs because checking the polarity of tweeters is a crapshoot. MS-8 relies on you to correctly connect the speakers.


----------



## 14642

Jerry, Have you tried recalibrating the input without the factory subwoofer output connected?


----------



## 14642

Jerry,
The center output should not be connected to MS-8's inputs. The manual suggests connecting the sub input to channels 7 or 8 because when MS-8 measures the inputs, it starts at channel 1 and MUST see a high frequency signl before it sees a low frequency signal. Connecting it to channel 5 is fine


----------



## Fedex11

Hi Everyone After much research i decided to go with MS8 in my 2013 f150
I hooked up unit following instructions ,going with a basic 4 speaker setup ..no subs or amp. Unit powered on followed instructions on display inserted cd and after 15 or so seconds it quit responding and now screen is blank. Reset does nothing power remains on but no screen .Please help


----------



## bmiller1

Fedex11 said:


> Hi Everyone After much research i decided to go with MS8 in my 2013 f150
> I hooked up unit following instructions ,going with a basic 4 speaker setup ..no subs or amp. Unit powered on followed instructions on display inserted cd and after 15 or so seconds it quit responding and now screen is blank. Reset does nothing power remains on but no screen .Please help


This may seem simplistic but check the cable jack in the back of the display. Sometimes you really have to push it in there. You may have just had it barely connected.


----------



## Fedex11

Thanks i have tried that . Its in there


----------



## jerrychrist

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Oops. Not correct. MS-8 checks the polarity of the inputs and corrects them. It doesn't do that on the outputs because checking the polarity of tweeters is a crapshoot. MS-8 relies on you to correctly connect the speakers.


That's cool, good to know.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Jerry, Have you tried recalibrating the input without the factory subwoofer output connected?


Not sure if its the same thing, but I did take out the power to the sub and tried calibrating that way. I don't remember exactly what happened, but I moved on so it wasn't ideal. I have even tried just calibrating with the fronts no sub at all and it didn't sound much different as far as mids go.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Jerry,
> The center output should not be connected to MS-8's inputs. The manual suggests connecting the sub input to channels 7 or 8 because when MS-8 measures the inputs, it starts at channel 1 and MUST see a high frequency signl before it sees a low frequency signal. Connecting it to channel 5 is fine


Hmm, well that isn't comforting. He doesn't think the center is the one connected, so since the sub is already after everything I guess changing the input wouldn't help.


----------



## Fedex11

I s there anyone who can help me in here on my f150 install Its just a install using stock system with no nav or amp 4 speakers unit powers on ... blue light but display remains blank it did come on initially but after insert cd message it quit and never came back on .this is a brand new unit


----------



## Shinju

Question.

The manual doesnt really clearify but I want to run an outside amplifier (5 channel) and then use one of the channels of the MS-8 to run my center channel at low power.

Can you run both Pre-amp out and the internal amplifier? My guess would be that you would have to match the correct speaker out channel to the preamp connection that is not being used by the outside amplifier?

Thanks!


Also do any of you MS-8 Gurus know if Metra or any other wireharness company makes a direct plug to use the stock wireharness for the input and output to bypass the stock JBL amplifier in a 2003 4runner with the JBL systhisis system? I would like to avoid cutting up the factory harness if possible.


----------



## alachua

Shinju said:


> Question.
> 
> The manual doesnt really clearify but I want to run an outside amplifier (5 channel) and then use one of the channels of the MS-8 to run my center channel at low power.
> 
> Can you run both Pre-amp out and the internal amplifier? My guess would be that you would have to match the correct speaker out channel to the preamp connection that is not being used by the outside amplifier?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> Also do any of you MS-8 Gurus know if Metra or any other wireharness company makes a direct plug to use the stock wireharness for the input and output to bypass the stock JBL amplifier in a 2003 4runner with the JBL systhisis system? I would like to avoid cutting up the factory harness if possible.


Andy has mentioned in this thread that running the center with significantly less power than your main speakers is sub optimal and not recomended. He suggests approximately the same power for the center as you would the L/R speakers.


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

Fast Hot Rod said:


> I'd bet money that it screws with the setup and acoustic calibration.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Oops. Not correct. MS-8 checks the polarity of the inputs and corrects them. It doesn't do that on the outputs because checking the polarity of tweeters is a crapshoot. MS-8 relies on you to correctly connect the speakers.


Damn... where do I send the money? :blush:

Here I was thinking that it was important... because I read this in the manual:










Silly me... reading the instructions and thinking that it mattered.


----------



## 14642

We put it in as a behind the scenes check. The statement in the owner's manual is intended to cause people to exercise at least some care in connecting the inputs. If I read, "polarity doesn't matter" then the slippery slope would lead to a thousand calls asking, "Does it matter if I connect the right front negtive to channel 2 negative and right from positive to channel 6 negatinv?" 

Just kidding.


----------



## vfrjim

Andy, do you know if Nor Cal fixed his problem? Reason why I am asking is that I am having the SAME EXACT problem. My system is not as elaborate as his, but it sounds like the MS-8 is overprocessing the signal and womans vocals are very strained at high volumes. 

Jim


----------



## taibanl

vfrjim said:


> Andy, do you know if Nor Cal fixed his problem? Reason why I am asking is that I am having the SAME EXACT problem. My system is not as elaborate as his, but it sounds like the MS-8 is overprocessing the signal and womans vocals are very strained at high volumes.
> 
> Jim


 at what volume are you running the sweeps? What is your power (amp) config?


----------



## vfrjim

taibanl said:


> at what volume are you running the sweeps? What is your power (amp) config?


I ran my sweeps as low as -40 to as high as -20 with the same results. I have a front amp on channels 1 + 2, using the internal amp on the sides on channel 3 +4, I have the sub channels 7 +8 on the sub amplifier. The fronts are 5 1/4" component separates config'd as one way, the sides are factory stock speakers set as one way. The crossover between the subs and the fronts are set to 120hz, same as the sides with the subsonic filter @ 20hz. all are 24db/spL crossovers


----------



## 14642

vfr,
It sounds to me as if the EQ is boosting too much and you're running out of headroom in the digital signal. 

I've I've already asked you to try this, sorry--I can't keep up.

1. First we need to figure out if the problem is input EQ related ot output EQ related. If you turn the volume of the head unit down and turn up the volume of the MS-8, does the problem go away?

2. What front speakers are you using and what are the crossover points? Where are they located?

3. Are you boosting in the 31-band EQ?


----------



## squarefour

I though I would post a quick MS-8 success story.

I chose a pretty complicated system, I've only installed around five stereos in the last 30-odd years, i don't have any test equipment other than a DMM, and I'm kind of an idiot with electricity, but I still managed to get some pretty great-sounding (to me) audio. I did manage to blow up an amp along the way, but still...

My only suggestion would be to omit the tiny invisible legs from the remote that enable it to scamper off and hide when eyes are averted. I think I've spent a cumulative 2 hours looking for that thing.


----------



## vfrjim

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> vfr,
> It sounds to me as if the EQ is boosting too much and you're running out of headroom in the digital signal.
> 
> I've I've already asked you to try this, sorry--I can't keep up.
> 
> 1. First we need to figure out if the problem is input EQ related ot output EQ related. If you turn the volume of the head unit down and turn up the volume of the MS-8, does the problem go away?
> 
> 2. What front speakers are you using and what are the crossover points? Where are they located?
> 
> 3. Are you boosting in the 31-band EQ?


1.No, it distorts both ways, volume down on the head unit and up on the MS-8 and vica-versa
2. using Polk Audio DXI-5250 in the front doors in factory stock locations on 2012 Mazda 3 i-touring. They are crossed over at 120hz @ 24 db/spl to a 12" sealed sub. Rear doors are factory stock running off the MS-8's amplifier
3. No boost or cut on 31 band EQ.

4th---- This problem did not happen when I first got the MS-8, it happened about 2 weeks later out of nowhere, when my factory speakers started to sound really bad (I thought I blew them since they cannot handle the power that I was feeding them.) Then I changed the speakers to the Polks, but when I did they did not really sound any better but sound fine if I turn off processing.


----------



## jerrychrist

So since input polarity isn't an issue, and output polarity seems to be good (since when ipod is connected to ms8, it sounds great), the only other thing it can be is what signal is going into the ms8 from the HU.

If the 5 inputs really are:

FL mid
FL tweet
FR mid
FR tweet
Sub

Then I'm not sure what other options I have to get this working. 

Once my car gets out of the body shop (accident, not my fault) I will take it to an installer along with the previous provided wiring diagram and have him confirm this.

Are there tools that measure what range each signal produces? I haven't been able to find on the internet, so how could I tell if the FL + FR does indeed have a full range signal.. just take the sub out, recalibrate and see what happens? Any devices to measure this?

I'm guessing if the MS8 inputs are correct as I listed above, there is no other scenario to get this working, and I guess I just have to accept the MS8 will not function with my HU, correct?


----------



## sicaudio

*Re: JBL's MS-8 processor! NEED HELP PLEASE*

So I installed a JBL MS-8 in my car and ive got a big set up. The ms-8 works great and sounds good but my rear speakers sound bad (cuting in and out) only on some songs and some notes but sound is still comming from them... when i turn off the logic 7 the rear speakers come to life and sound great but with the logic 7 on it really makes them sound bad... ive got kicker qs and im useing the qs crossover and a alpine 4 ch to power ch 1 & 2 rear / side and 3 & 4 is the center.... no other speaker sounds like this just the rear / side

Im sorry if this question has been asked....


----------



## vfrjim

so Andy, any ideas or is my MS-8 defective?


----------



## sicaudio

vfrjim said:


> so Andy, any ideas or is my MS-8 defective?


Vfr i know im jumping in on the last min. but are your speakers amped after the ms-8 ? And is it all your speakers or just one or two ?


----------



## vfrjim

All my speakers are amp'd except the sides(they are powered by the ms-8) I cannot tell if the sides are sounding distorted since they probably do not have tweeters since they are factory rear door speakers. I have a separate amp for the front speakers and a separate amp for the subs.

EDIT: I also changed the front amp after this problem started since I thought it might be a bad amp, but the replacement amp sounded just as bad


----------



## Bluenote

*Re: JBL's MS-8 processor! NEED HELP PLEASE*



sicaudio said:


> So I installed a JBL MS-8 in my car and ive got a big set up. The ms-8 works great and sounds good but my rear speakers sound bad (cuting in and out) only on some songs and some notes but sound is still comming from them... when i turn off the logic 7 the rear speakers come to life and sound great but with the logic 7 on it really makes them sound bad... ive got kicker qs and im useing the qs crossover and a alpine 4 ch to power ch 1 & 2 rear / side and 3 & 4 is the center.... no other speaker sounds like this just the rear / side
> 
> Im sorry if this question has been asked....


^ there's nothing wrong with your rear speakers in Logic7 mode when you hear the intermittent sound coming from them... That is the Logic 7 processing the Ambient and Out of Phase information to the rear channels  

When you fade to the rear with Logic 7 on... it's not much to listen to however, when properly balanced with the front stage it should compliment the overall sound. there's nothing wrong with your set-up


----------



## sicaudio

Bluenote said:


> ^ there's nothing wrong with your rear speakers in Logic7 mode when you hear the intermittent sound coming from them... That is the Logic 7 processing the Ambient and Out of Phase information to the rear channels
> 
> When you fade to the rear with Logic 7 on... it's not much to listen to however, when properly balanced with the front staWge it should compliment the overall sound. there's nothing wrong with your set-up


thanks so much im over here ripping my hair out trying to figure this out im done some big systems in my life but never a ms-8 so when i put it in my car i didnt know what to think


----------



## sicaudio

vfrjim said:


> All my speakers are amp'd except the sides(they are powered by the ms-8) I cannot tell if the sides are sounding distorted since they probably do not have tweeters since they are factory rear door speakers. I have a separate amp for the front speakers and a separate amp for the subs.
> 
> EDIT: I also changed the front amp after this problem started since I thought it might be a bad amp, but the replacement amp sounded just as bad


Are ur speakers cox or comp speakers? Because some comp speakers come with a crossover that u can change 0db, 3db, 6db on the tweet i would check that im not even useing my kicker crossovers for my front speakers ,....


----------



## sicaudio

sicaudio said:


> Are ur speakers cox or comp speakers? Because some comp speakers come with a crossover that u can change 0db, 3db, 6db on the tweet i would check that im not even useing my kicker crossovers for my front speakers ,....


Sorry just read the other post where u said what they are.... Have u tried a different speakers on the ch. Of the amp just see if the speakers are bad ?


----------



## Bluenote

sicaudio said:


> thanks so much im over here ripping my hair out trying to figure this out im done some big systems in my life but never a ms-8 so when i put it in my car i didnt know what to think


no problem! the ambient / rear fill is a great feature that the MS8 does well. I you look up "tendean17" he did a build using rear sides in the front and rears in the rear. what that means is that has rear fill up front and in the rear and says it sounds phenomenal. he didn't just slap it together either...he utilized a true Home theatre speaker arrangement diagram to test the theory. I'd like to try that config one day. ha!


----------



## vfrjim

Speakers are not bad, right now I am listening to it in by-pass mode and it sounds normal(not distorted). I am at the point right now that I might return the MS-8 unless I get a little help and since JBL has not called me back since I called last monday, I am very disappointed in their customer service.


----------



## 14642

vfrjim said:


> Speakers are not bad, right now I am listening to it in by-pass mode and it sounds normal(not distorted). I am at the point right now that I might return the MS-8 unless I get a little help and since JBL has not called me back since I called last monday, I am very disappointed in their customer service.


I'm often disappointed by our customer service too. Your rear speakers aren't broken. Logic 7 steers the out of phase information to the rear. That's the way most upmixers work--Dolby PL2 also. Using it can definitely add a sense of space to the car and help with stage width and depth. If you don't like it, though, turn it off and your rear speakers will play standard stereo information. Then, just use the faer control to adjust the level of the rear speaker. 

MS-8 does a bunch of the setup and tuning automatically, but there are all kinds of adjustments that you can use to suit your taste.


----------



## TinEar

After installing new speakers I plugged in the display to re-calibrate the system and the display would not turn on, MS-8 and its blue light came on, and it sounded pretty good, but I wanted to change some of the settings. Searched this thread and came up with some possible solutions such as pressing the re-set button on the back of the display and on the MS-8 unit, checked the display cable for continuity and shorts (thought I might have pinched or stretched the cable) and looked at the place where the cable plugged into the MS-8, and could not find a problem. Figured it must be the display itself but none were available that i could find. Running out of options I opened up the MS-8 to give the socket where the display cable plugs into a closer look. It had white epoxy or something similar around the socket and onto the circuit board and I couldn't jiggle it, out of desperation, I cut the display cable and striped back the three wires and the strand of bare wires wrapped around the three wires, plugged it into the socket and tested for continuity between the four wires of the display cable and their corresponding solder points on the bottom of the circuit board. The solder connection between the socket and circuit board for the bare wires (shielding wires, apparently) was broken, tried unsuccessfully to re-solder but could not make it work, made a jumper wire out of speaker wire and soldered one end of it to the metal surround barrel on top of the socket where the display cable clamps onto the socket and bent the other end of the wire around the front of the circuit board and soldered it to the corresponding point on the bottom of the circuit board. Put a small piece of electrical tape on the face plate where the jumper wire would touch, and completed re-assembly. Display works great now. 

Andy W. is a saint, I contacted him about the display situation and he was going to help when he returned from an extremely important engagement, but with the help of this thread I got it fixed. Thanks folks.


----------



## Fedex11

Any one install in a 2013 screw f150 without sony premium system .Was looking for any advice ,changed door speakers front and rear.. front pillar tweeters are still stock need some info on schematics for speaker wiring codes and where to pull remote power on from Thanks


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The good news is that we have now added another code-writer to the project. He's done a bunch of work on Lexicon processors, so we're making some new progress.


Andy,

Last week I bought a new car, and it comes with a Lexicon stereo.
If I'm not mistaken, the stereo in my new car likely has some software written by your team.

So here's my question:

Do you know if the Lexicon processors in the Hyundai Genesis use a highpass filter on the subwoofer channel? And if so, what frequency is it set at?



Here's why I ask:

The bass in my new Hyundai Genesis is very 'thin'. I measured the response with TrueRTA, and found that response drops at a rate of about 24db/octave, beginning at 100hz.

The subwoofer appears to be infinite baffle. Since it's IB, I'd expect the decay to be something around six to twelve dB per octave, not 24dB per octave.

So I have a hunch that the processor in the Genesis included a high pass filter, likely to reduce excursion, improve reliability, power handling etc.



Any idea?



P.S. I did my homework on this one. Read the user's manual, read the forums, even signed up for an account at Hyundai's documentation site and downloaded circuit diagrams. Can't find any documentation on what the xovers are doing.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm often disappointed by our customer service too. Your rear speakers aren't broken. Logic 7 steers the out of phase information to the rear. That's the way most upmixers work--Dolby PL2 also. Using it can definitely add a sense of space to the car and help with stage width and depth. If you don't like it, though, turn it off and your rear speakers will play standard stereo information. Then, just use the faer control to adjust the level of the rear speaker.
> 
> MS-8 does a bunch of the setup and tuning automatically, but there are all kinds of adjustments that you can use to suit your taste.












If anyone wants to get some of this Logic 7 goodness in their ride, and is in the market for a new car, you might want to check out the Hyundai Genesis. I bought one last week. Some things I like about it:

1) This car is selling like crap. Due to this, I found one discounted to a price that wasn't much more than what I paid for my last car. (my last car was an Accord.) If you look around, you can find these cars discounted by $6000 off MSRP.

https://www.google.com/search?q=site:craigslist.org+genesis+2012

2) I'd say the Genesis is comparable to cars like the Infiniti M45, but way cheaper. Definitely a step up from a Camry or an Accord.

3) The Lexicon stereo in the Genesis is probably the best stock stereo I've ever heard.

4) I've never really heard a multi-channel stereo that didn't sound 'fake' or 'gimmicky' until I heard this Lexicon stereo. IMHO it's easier to screw up a five channel stereo than a two channel stereo. So it's nice to have a system that's already 'sorted out' by the factory.

5) Those guys at Harman really know what they're doing, at this point nearly all of my stereos are from them. (JBL in the living room, Lexicon in the car, JBL at the office.)



My only gripe is that the subwoofer is anemic, but I'm working to address that. (See my post above.)



Again, kudos to Harman.


----------



## theoldguy

Mr. Wehmeyer,

since you work for JBL, I have a question for you. How common is the "please wait" problem on the display for the MS-8? It seems from all my searching that it is a a fairly common problem. Any chance that JBL would do a type of recall? Or is it not pinpointed to one specific thing? Im still having this issue with mine and the barely english speaking tech "support" person wasnt helpfull at all. Id hate to send it in for warranty if there is something I can do at home to fix it. Any input you have would be most welcomed. Thanks!


----------



## Miguel mac

I've installed the ms-8 with a VW gamma head on high level input. But the ms-8 just says low level and loud sound. And not advance in the setup. input level if it reaches the ms-8. can anyone help?

Yo he instalado el ms-8 con la cabeza original VW Gamma utilizando la entrada de alta del ms-8. Pero el ms-8 al subir el volumen de la radio VW gamma, de nivel bajo de entrada pasa a sonido ruidoso, aunque pase el volumen click a click, pasa de uno a otro, y no hay forma de que el setup de instalación pase de aquí. He reiniciado el ms-8 varias veces y siempre pasa lo mismo. Al ms-8 le esta llegando bien la señal por que en los mismos cables de entrada conecto un altavoz y suenan perfectamente. Alguien puede ayudarme?


----------



## jim1274

I can't imagine what question could possibly not have been already asked in this thread, but my thread search came up empty...so...

Will the MS-8 autotune with a center speaker outside the MS-8's control that is still working off the head unit? 

My front dash center 3.5" is run from a seperate module--suspect it is an addition for the SYNC voice system. When the SYNC is active and giving voice commands, all the speakers except the center dash 3.5 are significantly attenuated--you can barely hear the door speakers and tweeters--almost all the output is from the center dash speaker. That center really has to stay on the factory head module, and I can't use it as my MS-8 input as it is a mono signal.

I was planning to use an MS-8, just pulling a L+R signal off one of the door speaker sets (no separate amp on this system thus no low level input option), but that would lose my SYNC capability. The center dash speaker does not have separate controls on head unit--just tied into the front stage adjustments. When I pan hard right and left, the center just goes up and down in volume a modest amount with max output at panned dead center. The center is kind of a mono midrange or "fullrange" of sorts in my system.

Would the MS-8 still autotune with a speaker outside its tuning control by correcting for the fixed center level and frequency response curve by tuning the other system speakers to compensate for the center?

Obviously, I would lose the true center channel capability of the MS-8--the center in mine would be more like a mono midrange of sorts?


----------



## cjazzy4

I was wondering How does the JBL MS-8 compare to the Alpine PXA-H800 IMPRINT? I have been thinking about getting a sound processor to go with my all Pioneer system upgrade.....What are the pros and con's of both? Car is a 97 Merc. Grand Marq.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy, is there anything new in the works from JBL that is MS-8 like?


----------



## jim1274

jim1274 said:


> I can't imagine what question could possibly not have been already asked in this thread, but my thread search came up empty...so...
> 
> Will the MS-8 autotune with a center speaker outside the MS-8's control that is still working off the head unit?
> 
> My front dash center 3.5" is run from a seperate module--suspect it is an addition for the SYNC voice system. When the SYNC is active and giving voice commands, all the speakers except the center dash 3.5 are significantly attenuated--you can barely hear the door speakers and tweeters--almost all the output is from the center dash speaker. That center really has to stay on the factory head module, and I can't use it as my MS-8 input as it is a mono signal.
> 
> I was planning to use an MS-8, just pulling a L+R signal off one of the door speaker sets (no separate amp on this system thus no low level input option), but that would lose my SYNC capability. The center dash speaker does not have separate controls on head unit--just tied into the front stage adjustments. When I pan hard right and left, the center just goes up and down in volume a modest amount with max output at panned dead center. The center is kind of a mono midrange or "fullrange" of sorts in my system.
> 
> Would the MS-8 still autotune with a speaker outside its tuning control by correcting for the fixed center level and frequency response curve by tuning the other system speakers to compensate for the center?
> 
> Obviously, I would lose the true center channel capability of the MS-8--the center in mine would be more like a mono midrange of sorts?


Well, I just read the manual again and answered part of my question; the MS-8 introduces an 8ms delay so the center, or any other speaker, has to be connected to the MS-8 outputs to be in sync.

That said, why are there 8 inputs when you only use 4 max per the manual??? Is there some undocumented way to map a channel directly from input to output?? That would solve my center channel issue?


----------



## t3sn4f2

OEM active systems with 8 low level channels.


----------



## jim1274

t3sn4f2 said:


> OEM active systems with 8 low level channels.


I just looked thru the user guide again and did not see a single thing about using all 8 inputs--is that in some supplementary documentation?? 

Am I correct that even if using all 8 inputs, the unit internally sums and creates a single L and R "master" signal that is then processed for each output channel?


----------



## t3sn4f2

jim1274 said:


> I just looked thru the user guide again and did not see a single thing about using all 8 inputs--is that in some supplementary documentation??
> 
> Am I correct that even if using all 8 inputs, the unit internally sums and creates a single L and R "master" signal that is then processed for each output channel?


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1121845-post4094.html


----------



## jim1274

t3sn4f2 said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1121845-post4094.html


Ahhh....I see....post 4094...makes sense now....

It seems that any potential connections or settings on the unit should have been discussed in the manual, but understood it can be intimidating to some even as written. 

I suppose this thread *IS* the supplementary material!


----------



## t3sn4f2

jim1274 said:


> Ahhh....I see....post 4094...makes sense now....
> 
> It seems that any potential connections or settings on the unit should have been discussed in the manual, but understood it can be intimidating to some even as written.
> 
> *I suppose this thread IS the supplementary material!*


There's a few others on here as well.


----------



## Nathan_h

t3sn4f2 said:


> No updates as of yet. Other than the one you mentioned.


There was some discussion a while ago, and some testing going on in another thread (well, a call for testers in another thread).

Hopefully we'll see the fruit of that effort before long.


----------



## JonnieHildo

All,
I am kind of new to the forum and just purchased and MS8 and had a few questions:

I am getting ready to install my new MS8 into my Prius. I have a question about my center channel. 

I have read most of this thread and understand the center channel is important and really should be on par with your front channels both in amp power and quality of speaker.

I have 6 amp channels via a HiFonics 100.4 and a Rockford Fosgate 200.2. I semi planned to use the RF200.2 bridged to my sub and use the HF100.4 to power my 2 channel Front(with a safety cap on my tweeter). This setup leaves me without an amp channel for my center. 

Would it be better to use one of the RF200.2 channels to power the center? I am concerned that if i do this I will not be able to control the gain enough on the RF200.2 amp to have both good center and good bass. 

All the speakers are currently stock but I plan to upgrade the front and center starting with the center.



Thanks in advance.


----------



## jerrychrist

Any updates for the MS8 in the near future? Specifically related to midbass issues?


----------



## blownrunner

theoldguy said:


> Mr. Wehmeyer,
> 
> since you work for JBL, I have a question for you. How common is the "please wait" problem on the display for the MS-8? It seems from all my searching that it is a a fairly common problem. Any chance that JBL would do a type of recall? Or is it not pinpointed to one specific thing? Im still having this issue with mine and the barely english speaking tech "support" person wasnt helpfull at all. Id hate to send it in for warranty if there is something I can do at home to fix it. Any input you have would be most welcomed. Thanks!


Read post 8566. It ended up one of the amplifiers connected to the rca output of my ms-8. I would get the display freeze up and uncommanded shut down and start ups. try unplugging each amp one at a time and see what happens. Assuming you have amps installed.


----------



## thehun

vfrjim said:


> 1.No, it distorts both ways, volume down on the head unit and up on the MS-8 and vica-versa
> 2. using Polk Audio DXI-5250 in the front doors in factory stock locations on 2012 Mazda 3 i-touring. They are crossed over at 120hz @ 24 db/spl to a 12" sealed sub. Rear doors are factory stock running off the MS-8's amplifier
> 3. No boost or cut on 31 band EQ.
> 
> 4th---- This problem did not happen when I first got the MS-8, it happened about 2 weeks later out of nowhere, when my factory speakers started to sound really bad (I thought I blew them since they cannot handle the power that I was feeding them.) Then I changed the speakers to the Polks, but when I did they did not really sound any better but sound fine if I turn off processing.


I just bought the MS8, and having the same exct issue with my set up as well.It seems this has been reported by various members here, but haven't seen any definitive resolution to it. I've been reading this thread seen Andy's responses, and tried most of the suggested tips that was applicable in my situation.
Since this is my first post, I would just list my set up just in case

Everything is an after market device, and purchased in the last 3 months.
JVC head unit,
Front speakers Infinity Component speakers using passive xovers and amplifies with 1 ch per side. They are mounted on the front doors.Configured as 1 way in the MS8 set up menu.
All the vocal distortion comes from these speakers, mainly from the tweeters.
Rear speakers are Infinity as well coaxial type, mounted on the rear deck, configured as 1 way.
Amp is rockford Fostgate Puch 4ch amp
2 Subs located in the trunk powered by a 2ch amp [Boss]
All these components were installed prior to adding the MS8, and exhibited no distortion of any kind.
The MS 8 was installed in a shop but I was present the whole time, we followed the manual to the letter, same goes with initial calibration which I performed myself.
Anyway as others noted there is a severe distortion happens on mostly vocal range frequencies, and it emanates from the tweeters on the front.
I already tried different calibration levels from -25 -45 on the MS8 screen with no difference at all. Also as other noted it the L7 processing makes things worse, meaning the distortion kicks in on lower output levels, which is too bad since I like the processing, as far as what it creates for perceived sound quality in general.
So is there something I missed?
I've seen Andy posts saying that it's might be a digital overload or running out of headroom. Well that sounds like a design issue to me or a calibration trick that haven't been discussed or I missed it completely. Please help!
Thanks.


----------



## taibanl

In my experience, vocal distortion happens with too LOW a calibration volume.


----------



## kaigoss69

Level matching issue, most likely.


----------



## thehun

taibanl said:


> In my experience, vocal distortion happens with too LOW a calibration volume.



Do you own this unit?


----------



## thehun

kaigoss69 said:


> Level matching issue, most likely.


So I should crank up the unit's level and lower the amp's gains, like the above poster suggests? Say like -10db on the unit and to the 2v mark on the amp?


----------



## theoldguy

blownrunner said:


> Read post 8566. It ended up one of the amplifiers connected to the rca output of my ms-8. I would get the display freeze up and uncommanded shut down and start ups. try unplugging each amp one at a time and see what happens. Assuming you have amps installed.


ill give it a shot. thanks for the tip.


----------



## taibanl

thehun said:


> So I should crank up the unit's level and lower the amp's gains, like the above poster suggests? Say like -10db on the unit and to the 2v mark on the amp?


No its a subtle adjustment. For instance i had vocal distortion when calibrating @-28 but not @-23


----------



## thehun

taibanl said:


> No its a subtle adjustment. For instance i had vocal distortion when calibrating @-28 but not @-23


Ok I'll give it a shot, luckily it doesn't take long to perform the calibration.
I'll post my results. Thanks.


----------



## SacTownMan

Ok, I've tried to read through the 8000+ posts here and other sources for an answer to my question without success. So here goes

I have a 2012 Dodge Challenger RT with the crappy factory "premium" Boston Acoustics 7speaker setup and 730N HU. I just had all of the Boston speakers replaced. The original included the following;

Dash:
(3) 3 1/2" L / R / Center

Door:
(2) 6" x 9" sub L / R

Rear Shelf:
(2) 6 1/2" L / R
(1) 8" Sub

These have been replaced with the following.

In the trunk I have (2) P3 RF 12" subs in a JL Basswedge enclosure.

In the front, 3 way component Focal speakers. These are the P165 V33 Performance series. The 6 1/2 inch sub in the doors. The 4" mids in the factory L/R dash and finally the tweeters in the windshield pillars and flush mounted. I used a RF Power 4" for the center.

In the rear (2) Focal Access 165 CA 6 1/2" L / R for rear fill. The 8" has been removed and the hole left to allow more lowend sound into the passenger compartment.

All of this is currently going through a Audio Control LC8i but it doesn't get the job done. The problem seems to be summing the front L/R (Dash/Door) channels properly. It still sounds amazing but we are using the rear channels for the source.

So, I have a MS-8 coming this week to replace the LC8i.

Sorry for the long lead in but my question is this;

Do I run the factory Left Dash/Door line levels into the MS-8 channels 1-2, Right Dash/Door 3-4 only for the MS-8 to create the needed full L/R? What about the factory center and rear L/R signals do these just go unused. It looks like Sub goes to channel 8 so only 5 inputs needed (1-4 + 8) to re-create the signal? What about the bluetooth phone playback I hear through the center, does that get lost in the mix?

As far as the 8 outs I am thinking 1-2 for front mid/highs and 3-4 for the Focal door subs into my RF T-400 amp. 5-6 to the rear fill and 7 to center using on board MS-8 amps and channel 8 for the 12's into my RF T-1000bd sub amp.

Sorry for the noob questions but I simply could not find a similar setup question answered anywhere else.

I am blown away already by the improvement with the Focal's and the MS-8 should help bring my system to life.

Thanks again for any help you can provide, and please take it easy on the new guy!!


----------



## Grizz Archer

Sounds like a plan. But remember the 6.5" are midbass, not subs. So it will be like this...

1-2 FR and FL 4" and 1" on passive xover
3-4 FRmb and FLmb 6.5" midbass in the doors
(This mean you will have to set up as 2-way components)
5-6 Rear Ambience
7 Center
8 Sub

But if you can use all active xovers, that would be much better, but you would need a 4 channel amp just for the 4" and tweeters and it would have to have xovers that go up to 3kHz-5kHz or whatever your Focals require.


----------



## Mopar244DIY

My JBL MS-8 is the second biggest dissappointment in my life. The only one greater was a girl in highschool. What a waste of money.

So much promise .......sooooo little return.

I refuse to read 8000 posts to find an answer to my problem. My time will be better spent ripping it out of my van.

Shoulda never trusted the hype.

Factory Stock never sounded as horrible as my MS-8 config.

Not a believer here anymore in JBL.

Darcy


----------



## Grizz Archer

Bummer you feel that way. Seems to works well for most people. Some world champions have no issues. I will never build another vehicle without one. Have you talked with Andy about your issues? If not, DO IT.


----------



## kaigoss69

Mopar244DIY said:


> My JBL MS-8 is the second biggest dissappointment in my life. The only one greater was a girl in highschool. What a waste of money.
> 
> So much promise .......sooooo little return.
> 
> I refuse to read 8000 posts to find an answer to my problem. My time will be better spent ripping it out of my van.
> 
> Shoulda never trusted the hype.
> 
> Factory Stock never sounded as horrible as my MS-8 config.
> 
> Not a believer here anymore in JBL.
> 
> Darcy


Wow, your expectations must have been pretty high. Just like with the girl, it takes some effort to make it work. If you expect instant satisfaction, see a professional!


----------



## s4k4zulu

kaigoss69 said:


> Wow, your expectations must have been pretty high. Just like with the girl, it takes some effort to make it work. If you expect instant satisfaction, see a professional!


LMFAO.


----------



## 14642

Mopar244DIY said:


> My JBL MS-8 is the second biggest dissappointment in my life. The only one greater was a girl in highschool. What a waste of money.
> 
> So much promise .......sooooo little return.
> 
> I refuse to read 8000 posts to find an answer to my problem. My time will be better spent ripping it out of my van.
> 
> Shoulda never trusted the hype.
> 
> Factory Stock never sounded as horrible as my MS-8 config.
> 
> Not a believer here anymore in JBL.
> 
> Darcy


In case you haven't had time to rip it out of your car and would like me to help you directly, I'd be happy to. If not, sorry you were disappointed and i wish I had the opporunity to helpyo make this thing work.


----------



## nineball

Mopar244DIY said:


> I refuse to read 8000 posts to find an answer to my problem.


if you are not willing to find and correct the problems for you own system who will?


----------



## n_olympios

This may well be *DoItYourself*MobileAudio but sometimes it's just easier to admit ignorance and let a pro handle it.


----------



## subwoofery

n_olympios said:


> This may well be *DoItYourself*MobileAudio but sometimes it's just easier to admit ignorance and let a pro handle it.


Well... I know a few DIYers that complains about something yet never read the 5 pages manual that came with their gear either  

Kelvin 

Edit: ok... The MS-8's manual is 48 pages long but you get my point  
Andy has stated many times (in a few threads and a few times in this one) that most problems could have been avoided if people would read the manual before starting with the installation and calibration of their MS-8


----------



## n_olympios

That's always the case, not just with the MS-8.


----------



## nineball

subwoofery said:


> Well... I know a few DIYers that complains about something yet never read the 5 pages manual that came with their gear either
> 
> Kelvin
> 
> Edit: ok... The MS-8's manual is 48 pages long but you get my point
> Andy has stated many times (in a few threads and a few times in this one) that most problems could have been avoided if people would read the manual before starting with the installation and calibration of their MS-8


exactly. RTFM.


----------



## Bsabbathfan66

Ok so maybe someone here can help me out... I would much appreciate some expert advice.

Just about to finish up my MS8 install, and my current layout is JBL 660GTIs up front in the doors with waveguides for the tweets, rear 6x9s, and a JBL W15 MKii. My big question is how to run the 660s off the MS8? I assume I would stick with the beautiful crossover that came with these puppies, but should I run a channel to each side (2) or run a channel to each mid and tweet (4). And since my tweets are in the door should I worry about covering them up during the sweeps or just do it all normally? 

Also something else bugging me is.. are my tweeters safe from turn off thumps since they are running through the x over, or do they still need caps on them to prevent damage?

Sorry if this has been touched on already. I am reading this whole thread, but only about 3000 posts into it. Lol

On my Galaxy S3


----------



## subwoofery

Bsabbathfan66 said:


> Ok so maybe someone here can help me out... I would much appreciate some expert advice.
> 
> Just about to finish up my MS8 install, and my current layout is JBL 660GTIs up front in the doors with waveguides for the tweets, rear 6x9s, and a JBL W15 MKii. My big question is how to run the 660s off the MS8? I assume I would stick with the beautiful crossover that came with these puppies, but should I run a channel to each side (2) or run a channel to each mid and tweet (4). And since my tweets are in the door should I worry about covering them up during the sweeps or just do it all normally?
> 
> Also something else bugging me is.. are my tweeters safe from turn off thumps since they are running through the x over, or do they still need caps on them to prevent damage?
> 
> I apologize if this has been touched on already. I am reading this entire thread but I am only about 3000 posts into it. Lol
> 
> On my Galaxy S3


You're using an amplifier? 

Kelvin


----------



## Bsabbathfan66

Yeah sorry... Hifonics 220x4 and Jbl GTO24001

On my Galaxy S3


----------



## kaigoss69

Bsabbathfan66 said:


> Ok so maybe someone here can help me out... I would much appreciate some expert advice.
> 
> Just about to finish up my MS8 install, and my current layout is JBL 660GTIs up front in the doors with waveguides for the tweets, rear 6x9s, and a JBL W15 MKii. My big question is how to run the 660s off the MS8? I assume I would stick with the beautiful crossover that came with these puppies, but should I run a channel to each side (2) or run a channel to each mid and tweet (4). And since my tweets are in the door should I worry about covering them up during the sweeps or just do it all normally?
> 
> Also something else bugging me is.. are my tweeters safe from turn off thumps since they are running through the x over, or do they still need caps on them to prevent damage?
> 
> Sorry if this has been touched on already. I am reading this whole thread, but only about 3000 posts into it. Lol
> 
> On my Galaxy S3


Given the available amp power and with the tweeters and the mids in the same spot I would definitely use the passives, which will also help protect the tweeters. Only if the tweets were up high in the sails or a-pillars would I say go active with 4 channels.


----------



## Bsabbathfan66

kaigoss69 said:


> Given the available amp power and with the tweeters and the mids in the same spot I would definitely use the passives, which will also help protect the tweeters. Only if the tweets were up high in the sails or a-pillars would I say go active with 4 channels.


Cool, sounds good. Thanks for the input. 

On my Galaxy S3


----------



## Bsabbathfan66

One more thing, (and i am still reading through all 347 pages of this thread, but i am only about half way through and my eyeballs are on fire lol),

When i fire this up tomorrow and set it all up, how do i go about setting the amp gains? Do i do it as if i had no MS8, and then after all amps are set, run calibration? Like say 
1) set sub amp gain till distortion then back off a bit
2) set multi channel amp till distortion then back off a bit
3) then calibrate?

I hate asking questions that maybe already answered, but i dont know the answer to this and i am already not the best at setting gains. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Bsabbathfan66

So I actually found the perfect answer from Andy for my question I think after digging some more. Figured I would repost for anyone wondering. 




Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Too much has been made over the years about gain and level setting. Some years ago, systems were made up of a head unit, an EQ, separate electronic crossovers and then amps. Setting levels in these kinds of systems was important, but we no longer use so many analog components in a lengthy signal chain. In a system like that, each component should be driven with the highest level possible before the outputs OR the inputs are clipped. and the signal sent over the wire should be maximized to maximize the signal to noise ratio. The reason for all of this was noise. Too much INPUT sensitivity and too little output voltage would result in system hiss and would boost the level of engine noise, which would be amplified by every component in the chain.
> 
> We no longer have to be so concerned with all of that because systems now are often a head unit, a signal processor of some kind and some amplifiers. Additionally, components now often have differential inputs, which are designed to eliminate the possibility of engine noise.
> 
> So, with MS-8, the analog signal from the source is converted into a digital signal in the unit before anything else happens and we've designed the unit to make setting this level as easy as it can be. The RCAs are fixed input sensitivity and are designed to work with all aftermarket head units without any user intervention. Just plug them in and go. The unit, without EQ, is designed to provide unity gain up to 2.8V, which is plenty. That means if you put 1V in, you get 1V out. If you put 2V in, you get 2V out. If you put 9V in, you'll get 2.8V out but it'll be seriously distorted. When you turn the output of your radio down so that you send 2.8V, you'll get 2.8V that isn't clipped.
> 
> Now, one of the reasons that all of this input sensitivity setting procedure was developed and that many of us suggest things like 10dB of gain "overlap" is because a system that can't clip doesn't sound very loud, especially with recordings that have a high crest factor and little dynamic range compression added to the final mixdown. You *want* your system to clip, but you want to balance that with the amount of noise (hiss) you allow the system to produce. You *don't *want _*much*_ of this clipping to be digital distortion, because that sounds bad.
> 
> If you're using a 4V head unit with MS-8, that provides 3dB of gain overlap. You won't hear much distortion unless you listen to sine waves recorded at 0dB with the volume control turned all the way up. With normal music and the head unit's volume control all the way up, only the transients that are recorded at 0dB will be distorted, but only by 3dB. You won't hear that and if you do, simply backing the volume control of the head unit off by a couple of notches will take care of it.
> 
> Since the MS-8 is designed to provide unity gain, it's sufficient to set the input sensitivity of the amplifiers to the same setting as the output of your head unit for 0dB of gain overlap between MS-8 and your amps). This will ensure no input clipping of your amplifiers and will ensure the least noise possible. Double the input sensitivity will result in an additional 6dB of gain. So, if your head unit is a 4V unit, you can set the input sensitivity of the amps to about 1V, which will give you a total of about 9dB of "overlap". Precision isn't required.
> 
> Because MS-8 also has a volume control, you'll have to manage how you use it. You don't have to use the MS-8 control if you'd prefer to use the one on your radio. If you choose to do this, then you'll need to set the MS-8 volume control at some level that allows the right amount of "input sensitivity" but also allows enough digital headroom for the EQ inside of the MS-8 to operate without running out of bits (that causes digital distortion). I suggest setting the MS-8 control at -6dB to -9dB during listening, unless you boost the bass in MS-8. If you boost, then you should set it lower by about the same amount as you boost and then use your head unit's volume control.
> 
> If this in't enough "gain" for you, then turn the amplifiers up after calibration by the same amount to maintain MS-8's "tune".
> 
> 
> You can determine the point at which your radio outputs about 2.8V by putting the setup disc in your aftermarket radio and running input setup. The point at which you get OK OK OK is the point at which your radio outputs about 2.8V. You can continue to run input setup and MS-8 will Un-EQ and remove any channel delay. If you're using an aftermarlet radio, none of that should be necessary so all of the EQ filters will be set to unity. That means what comes in goes out. If you choose "skip input setup", all of the filters will be set to unity.
> 
> When you run acoustic calibration, MS-8 will set all of the output levels according to the acoustic response in the car. This takes into account the sensitivity of the drivers and their frequency responses. Some outputs will be increased in level and some may be decreased. So long as there's no hiss, the output level and the input sensitivity control of your amps don't matter. Let MS-8 do what it does.
> 
> When you run acoustic calibration, the output of the system can't clip the mic, or things will be ugly. If the mic is clipped during the first set of sweeps, the unit won't be able to locate the initial peak in the response and it won't set time alignment correctly. You'll know this is the case, because there won't be a center image. This is all the volume control setting for acoustic calibration is doing--making sure the system doesn't clip the mics. To ensure this, turn MS-8's volume control DOWN. If you use MS-8's internal amps, -20dB is the highest setting you'll need. If you're using additional amps, you'll have to turn it down MORE. -40, maybe. This setting doesn't matter too much in terms of the final outcome, but the level does change the way MS-8 will boost and cut, because everything has to fit in a "window". The window is big, though.
> 
> This is no different than tuning with a regular EQ. If you boost all the bands to fix holes, you'll have a super loud car and you'll probably have lots of clipping and noise. You'll also probably boost in the interest of filling holes cause by acoustic cancellation, which may overdrive your speakers and cause additional distortion. MS-8 tries NOT to do this, but it can't know for sure. If your response has big holes because you're using an 8" midbass and a 1" tweeter and the wrong crossover point, you may hear distortion because MS-8 is boosting as much as it can to fill a hole that can't be filled. Fix the speaker system. MS-8 can't make gold out of crap.
> 
> If, when you're tuning with a manual EQ, you cut all the bands to remove peaks, then you'll reduce the output voltage of the EQ at frequencies where you've cut and you'll probably want to readjust the input sensitivity of all of the amps to increase the level of the whole system to make up for it. If you think about it, this is how we all tune systems anyway. So long as you don't introduce a bunch of system hiss, this is fine. Cutting a lot and boosting a little is the best method. This is how MS-8's algorithm is designed to work. It works well, but GIGO still applies.
> 
> Once acoustic calibration is complete, if you want to use your head unit's volume control, set MS-8's volume control to -6 and go crazy. If you boost a bunch with MS-8's EQ or sub level control, you may have to turn MS-8's volume control down to leave more digital headroom for the boost. This isn't a defect. This is how digital EQ works. Some digital EQs normalize the response. That would result in everything else being reduced in level as you boost the bass (or the EQ). We didn't do this because it adds complexity to the system and the result of boosting with these systems when you reach the level at which there are no more bits available is counterintuitive.
> 
> If you want to use MS-8's control, do this: Put in a music disc, turn MS-8's volume control DOWN to something like -40 or -50 (so you know you're not clipping the outputs of MS-8 or your amps) and turn up the head unit's volume control. When you hear distortion, you'll know you're either clipping the output of the radio or the inputs of MS-8. Turn the head unit's volume control down until you don't hear any more distortion. This is the maximum usable output of the head unit for MUSIC and for that particular disc. If you listen to another disc with more or less dynamic range compression in the recording, you may find a different volume control setting produces *audible *distortion. This is related to our ability to hear distortion on transients, the length of the transients and how often those transients are repeated. The idea here is that you have control over the amount of clipping you allow. It is what it is and balancing the two volume controls will help you get the most from your system. I think the vast majority of systems will be fine.
> 
> The bass can't clip the mics during sweeps 2-4 either, because the EQ doesn't know what to do. Be sure that the level of the bass is LOW during the sweeps. If you have twelve 15" woofers and you want to wake the neighbors, turn the amp gain WAY down during calibration. The bass should be heard during the sweeps, but you shouldn't feel it. Then, after calibration, turn the gain of the amp up until you're happy. You can't wake the neighbors and have 40dB more bass than mids and highs and maintain the illusion that the bass is in the front of the car, which is what MS-8 is designed to do. You'll have to adjust the gain of the amp to get what you want, because MS-8 tries to eliminate what you want. Let MS-8 do what it does, and then make your adjustment afterward.
> 
> Finally, if the system doesn't play loudly enough, adjust the amplifier input sensitivity control to increase the overall system level. There's no need to use a meter or a scope. Just adjust them all up or down by the same amount to maintain MS-8's EQ and relative level settings. The VMM method won't work because there's a bunch of EQ applied to the signal, which increases and decreases the output voltage at different frequencies. BTW, the VMM method is only slightly more accurate than just setting by ear.
> 
> Don't be confused by all of the "this has to be precisely set to get the most from your system" garbage. If there's no noise (or the noise is low enough that you're not annoyed by it) and your system plays loudly enough, then things are set appropriately.




On my Galaxy S3


----------



## jbradle7

*Audi A4 (B8) Center Help Needed*

Hey guys, looking for some guidance from the car audio experts here. I've had my MS-8 installed in my A4 for over a year now and overall I'm quite happy with it. My biggest issue in tuning has been the ridiculously small center channel Audi decided was a good idea to put in their cars. I'm currently running a small Vifa 2" woofer and a JL tweeter with PCN which works pretty darn well considering the size. I've tried running minus the center and mid-bass response improves but at the expense of imaging. So my next step is to try to install the biggest woofer I can (something capable of playing well below 200hz) in my dash, this will involve some cutting and fiberglass work but that is nbd really. Looking at a 3.5" Dayton ND91 and a new tweeter.
Dayton Audio ND91-4 3-1/2" Aluminum Cone Full-Range Driver 4 290-224 

Planning on using the factory grille and building the mounts and a small sealed enclosure for the woofer integral to that. Here's what I have to work with.

























In selecting a new tweeter, how important is off-axis response when the tweeter will be firing up into the windshield? Considering the MS-8 corrections, should I worry about this or choose a tweeter with better on-axis traits... wasn't sure if the off-axis frequencies and more direct frequencies reflecting off the windshield would cause too many problems (cancellations etc.)?

Appreciate any insight or feedback.

Thanks in advance,
J


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: Audi A4 (B8) Center Help Needed*



jbradle7 said:


> Hey guys, looking for some guidance from the car audio experts here. I've had my MS-8 installed in my A4 for over a year now and overall I'm quite happy with it. My biggest issue in tuning has been the ridiculously small center channel Audi decided was a good idea to put in their cars. I'm currently running a small Vifa 2" woofer and a JL tweeter with PCN which works pretty darn well considering the size. I've tried running minus the center and mid-bass response improves but at the expense of imaging. So my next step is to try to install the biggest woofer I can (something capable of playing well below 200hz) in my dash, this will involve some cutting and fiberglass work but that is nbd really. Looking at a 3.5" Dayton ND91 and a new tweeter.
> Dayton Audio ND91-4 3-1/2" Aluminum Cone Full-Range Driver 4 290-224
> 
> Planning on using the factory grille and building the mounts and a small sealed enclosure for the woofer integral to that. Here's what I have to work with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In selecting a new tweeter, how important is off-axis response when the tweeter will be firing up into the windshield? Considering the MS-8 corrections, should I worry about this or choose a tweeter with better on-axis traits... wasn't sure if the off-axis frequencies and more direct frequencies reflecting off the windshield would cause too many problems (cancellations etc.)?
> 
> Appreciate any insight or feedback.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> J


If you go through the trouble of cutting and fiberglassing, suggest you install at least a 5.25" midrange - bigger really is better with the MS-8. 
Regarding the tweeter, I wouldn't sweat too much on its dispersion characteristics, just install it and be happy 

Kelvin


----------



## nineball

i think more importantly that on/off axis response would be a larger woofer. it's been stated multiple times that the center channel should be on par, both in terms of quality and power, with the front stage. unless you have 3.5" speakers for your front stage the center channel will never live up to it's potential.


----------



## jbradle7

subwoofery said:


> If you go through the trouble of cutting and fiberglassing, suggest you install at least a 5.25" midrange - bigger really is better with the MS-8.
> Regarding the tweeter, I wouldn't sweat too much on its dispersion characteristics, just install it and be happy
> 
> Kelvin





nineball said:


> i think more importantly that on/off axis response would be a larger woofer. it's been stated multiple times that the center channel should be on par, both in terms of quality and power, with the front stage. unless you have 3.5" speakers for your front stage the center channel will never live up to it's potential.


Thanks for the quick responses guys! I understand in logic7 the center is critical and ideally, the center should be of similar size/performance as the front L/R woofers. I'm not willing to cut the dash pad itself, but the existing factory baffle and factory speaker grille will get the business. This leaves me about 4" max dia to work with, without making a big ungainly monstrosity of a speaker pod propped conspicuously atop my dash.

I've been able to tune the existing system pretty good with that little woofer by crossing the front at 100hz, center at 200hz and relying more on the rear sub for the low frequencies... it's not gonna win any sound-offs but works for me.

The specs on that ND91 look promising to my novice brain, Fs of 63.4 Hz. Should perform well below 150hz in a proper sealed enclosure? My current door woofers are JBL P660's (nominal dia around 5.25) so hoping that a new 3.5 capable of playing low freq's will help out a bit. All my speakers (except sub) are powered by the MS-8 chip amps. My set-up is very basic compared to most here, just trying to optimize it the best I can. Investment is pretty low-dollar here, I'll make this my xmas project and see how it works out.

Thanks again,
J


----------



## Mopar244DIY

OK guys....

Still trying to get a decent sound here. My ears tell me there is something wrong. I know everybody praises the MS8. I want to as well. I have put a tune on each and every speaker combo there could be.

I am finding that if I just configure the MS8 to four channels .... I get my best sound quality. 

I have also done a speaker configuration with each pair of speakers only (dash, fronts, rears/sides)

They all sound pretty good on their own.

When doing my setup I have also tried to setup the fronts as 2 ways. I have a full range speaker in the dashes and doors and rears. (6x9 3 ways in doors and rears) With the fronts as 2 ways I was getting too much bass to the dashes and they were overpowered as well. This is with the MS8 chooseing the x-over points. I also didn't like the door 6x9's sound either.

On their own in a 4 speaker setup with the rear 6x9 speakers .... the system sounded the best of any setup I tried. But that was without the dash and center speakers. 

I have read and re-read the owners manual many times. I am certain this much..... I must be doing something wrong or my system has some type of issue that I am missing. 

It looks like if I keep the MS8 in my car without sorting this out...... it will be a 4 speaker config will no importance put on a front stage.

Anyone care to give me some constructive advice? I don't need any ridicule....... I feel ****ty enough here. I just want to enjoy my stereo the way it's potential can deliver.

Thanks


Darcy


----------



## taibanl

umm except the MS eight doesn't pick any crossover points!


----------



## subwoofery

taibanl said:


> umm except the MS eight doesn't pick any crossover points!


I thought it actually did... :surprised: 

Kelvin


----------



## LovesMusic

If I could get some input ..

I have ran the ms8 before on a 2way set up...now going 3 way and was planning on giving it another shot..
Equipment:
L6-midbass
L3se-mids
L1pros
2 10"idqs off jl hd750/1

I have 2 amps Hd600/4 and slashv2 300/4
I was planning on running the 600/4 to the L6s and L1pros and puting the L3s on the ab slash bridged...
Or slash on on L1s and l3s actively crossed at the amp 5k hz getting 75wrms a piece and hd bridged on L6s, then run remaining 2 chs from the ms8 to the factory amp in the car to power rear fill with 50 wrms a piece... lots of options any suggestions?


----------



## kaigoss69

Mopar244DIY said:


> OK guys....
> 
> Still trying to get a decent sound here. My ears tell me there is something wrong. I know everybody praises the MS8. I want to as well. I have put a tune on each and every speaker combo there could be.
> 
> I am finding that if I just configure the MS8 to four channels .... I get my best sound quality.
> 
> I have also done a speaker configuration with each pair of speakers only (dash, fronts, rears/sides)
> 
> They all sound pretty good on their own.
> 
> When doing my setup I have also tried to setup the fronts as 2 ways. I have a full range speaker in the dashes and doors and rears. (6x9 3 ways in doors and rears) With the fronts as 2 ways I was getting too much bass to the dashes and they were overpowered as well. This is with the MS8 chooseing the x-over points. I also didn't like the door 6x9's sound either.
> 
> On their own in a 4 speaker setup with the rear 6x9 speakers .... the system sounded the best of any setup I tried. But that was without the dash and center speakers.
> 
> I have read and re-read the owners manual many times. I am certain this much..... I must be doing something wrong or my system has some type of issue that I am missing.
> 
> It looks like if I keep the MS8 in my car without sorting this out...... it will be a 4 speaker config will no importance put on a front stage.
> 
> Anyone care to give me some constructive advice? I don't need any ridicule....... I feel ****ty enough here. I just want to enjoy my stereo the way it's potential can deliver.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> Darcy


What I think you need to do (unless I am misunderstanding):

- set front as 2-way and highpass the 3.5s (front hi) where they're happy (200Hz or thereabouts)
- assuming you don't have a sub I'd set the highpass/subsonic for 6x9 midbass (front lo) at 40Hz
- set the highpass for the center at 200Hz (or wherever you cross the front hi)
- set the highpass for the rears at 100Hz
- run calibration, then go into "secret" menu and play pink noise to each channel and match levels
- run calibration again


----------



## SacTownMan

So I have my MS-8 in hand and ready for the installer tomorrow. 

My main question remains,

I want to keep my Chrysler Uconnect and 730N HU Nav voice functions. My understanding is these are sent through the center speaker from the factory amp. So my qustion is;

In order to keep the Uconnect and Nav do I also need to input my center channel output from the factory amp into the MS-8 to be summed into the signal?

If not I would think that I would lose that function.

Anyone? Bueller?


----------



## LAValleyM35

OK please help! After six years, I've decided to hold onto my trusty Infiniti 2006 M35, although with some reluctance due to Bose. I currently plug my IPod into the Aux input with RCA plug which is distorted and not optimal sounding. I'm a caraudio wannabe expert that has done very minor indash/speaker/amp installs on previous cars. I must say I've spent some time researching the problems with my Bose, but still a bit fuzzy with the fixes. I just stumbled on the MS-8 and it seems to provide the easy solution for a somewhat reasonable price. I also saw Audison Bitone but not much info avail out there on that. I am interested in Grom Audio adapter (GROM-AUX-NIS02). I am not 100% sure about the compatibility of MS-8 with my 14 speaker Bose system, but am ready to give it a shot. I am considering adding a shallow 10 inch Sub (Alpine or Rockford, Suggestions Please!) as well as mono amp. Not sure if amped subs are a good option, but open to it. As far as install, not sure about what cost to expect OR if I have a decent chance of DIYing it (doubtful.) Please send me whatever suggestions you have especially if you are familiar with Infiniti BOSE integration with the MS-8 and what other options or additions to MS-8 would be optimal for a reasonable price. 

Thank YOu
LAValleyM35 Guy


----------



## creed

guys; am already had the MS-8 installed in the chain of my system and been loving it so far. I'm about to re-utilize one of the iPod Touch I have and perhaps connect it into the MS-8 AUX-IN options; I do not have any accessories just yet (e.g. Apple LOD or even DAC, line out cable to RCA etc); hence I want to get some opinions what's the best way to connect the iPod Touch into the MS-8 and provide great quality.

I thought of few; as follows;
- Option1: Get a LOD and convert the 3.5mm to RCA into the MS-8 AUX-IN
- Option2: Get a iDevice DAC (iStreamer/Nuforce iDo) and connect iPod to it digitally and lineout from the DAC to MS-8 AUX.

What would be a more feasible approach and would the standard LOD from iPod Touch sensitive enough to drive the MS-8 AUX?

Would want to hear opinions from the floor. Cheers


----------



## t3sn4f2

creed said:


> guys; am already had the MS-8 installed in the chain of my system and been loving it so far. I'm about to re-utilize one of the iPod Touch I have and perhaps connect it into the MS-8 AUX-IN options; I do not have any accessories just yet (e.g. Apple LOD or even DAC, line out cable to RCA etc); hence I want to get some opinions what's the best way to connect the iPod Touch into the MS-8 and provide great quality.
> 
> I thought of few; as follows;
> - Option1: Get a LOD and convert the 3.5mm to RCA into the MS-8 AUX-IN
> - Option2: Get a iDevice DAC (iStreamer/Nuforce iDo) and connect iPod to it digitally and lineout from the DAC to MS-8 AUX.
> 
> What would be a more feasible approach and would the standard LOD from iPod Touch sensitive enough to drive the MS-8 AUX?
> 
> Would want to hear opinions from the floor. Cheers


Just go with the istreamer and keep it simple. At least you know you won't have power issues since its been used in a car countless times.


----------



## creed

I see thanks for the response. Apart from going to a dedicated dac like iStreamer, would the LOD direct to AUX a good option? And how does it fares compare with dedicated DAC, worth the extra 200 bucks spent?

The reason I asked about this was the articles that I've read about iPhone internal DAC quality is no slouch compare to those sub USD150 DAC; and what my worries only about the line level analog output whether its suffice for the JBL MS-8 AUX; I'll be running says a LOD to RCA in the length of 3.5 - 4metres to the back of the car.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## taibanl

Try kensington dock to aux connector


----------



## Hulk311

Hello gentlemen, just bought a new car and looking to buy a processor so I can install the following:

RAINBOW CS 265 PROFI VANADIUMs
ARC AUDIO FD4150
IDQ12 D2 sub

I have narrowed my choices down to two processors:

MS-8 JBL DIGITAL SOUND 7.1 CH SURROUND PROCESSOR MS8
Rockford Fosgate 3SIXTY.3

They both cost about the same at eBay.

What are the main differences, pros/cons of each? And which one will work better with my setup? Main goal is to just have a good sounding system, I don't plan on competing and once I set up the processor I don't plan on changing it, the speakers or sub. Also, I know nothing about tuning and in addition I don't want the "faint hissing noise" that some processors make when they are off or that loud THUMP noise when the stereo is turned on. Thank you.


----------



## subwoofery

Hulk311 said:


> Hello gentlemen, just bought a new car and looking to buy a processor so I can install the following:
> 
> RAINBOW CS 265 PROFI VANADIUMs
> ARC AUDIO FD4150
> IDQ12 D2 sub
> 
> I have narrowed my choices down to two processors:
> 
> MS-8 JBL DIGITAL SOUND 7.1 CH SURROUND PROCESSOR MS8
> Rockford Fosgate 3SIXTY.3
> 
> They both cost about the same at eBay.
> 
> What are the main differences, pros/cons of each? And which one will work better with my setup? Main goal is to just have a good sounding system, I don't plan on competing and once I set up the processor I don't plan on changing it, the speakers or sub. Also, *I know nothing about tuning* and in addition I don't want the "faint hissing noise" that some processors make when they are off or that loud THUMP noise when the stereo is turned on. Thank you.


^ this tells you which processor to use... 

Kelvin


----------



## SacTownMan

SacTownMan said:


> So I have my MS-8 in hand and ready for the installer tomorrow.
> 
> My main question remains,
> 
> I want to keep my Chrysler Uconnect and 730N HU Nav voice functions. My understanding is these are sent through the center speaker from the factory amp. So my qustion is;
> 
> In order to keep the Uconnect and Nav do I also need to input my center channel output from the factory amp into the MS-8 to be summed into the signal?
> 
> If not I would think that I would lose that function.
> 
> Anyone? Bueller?


Still waiting for anyone to respond!!!

Bueller... - YouTube


----------



## quality_sound

SacTownMan said:


> Still waiting for anyone to respond!!!
> 
> Bueller... - YouTube


Arc has a phone. People answer it too...


----------



## SacTownMan

quality_sound said:


> Arc has a phone. People answer it too...


Sorry if I'm wasting your precious time maybe next time if you don't have something to add maybe you could just STFU!


----------



## nineball

SacTownMan said:


> Sorry if I'm wasting your precious time maybe next time if you don't have something to add maybe you could just STFU!


great attitude. i'm sure lots of people will jump up to help you now.


----------



## SacTownMan

nineball said:


> great attitude. i'm sure lots of people will jump up to help you now.


Look I asked a simple question. If he didn't like it it could choose to simply ignore it or if he actually had something constructive to add then please do so.

Yet he choose to post some half witted statement about, what I can only assume is, ARC Audio answering their phones. So if you can explain how calling ARC Audio with an installation question about a product made by JBL would possible help please fell free to enlighten me.

One reason I was reluctant to sign up for DIYMA is because of a few rude, self righteous wanna be's choosing to be cyber bullies and acting like a jerk to someone they've never met before. Try acting that way in real life and see how far it gets you.

I was kind of hoping Andy might chime in as he seems to be someone that wants his customers to be happy with the product. There are a lot of Challenger owners that are looking to do the same upgrade I am and would benefit from some constructive dialogue.

I asked a very detailed, thoughtful question that could make my upgrade go smoothly and didn't deserve the arrogant, snipey response. 

Sorry if you were offended but his BS post simply didn't deserve a better response.


----------



## alachua

SacTownMan said:


> Look I asked a simple question. If he didn't like it it could choose to simply ignore it or if he actually had something constructive to add then please do so.
> 
> Yet he choose to post some half witted statement about, what I can only assume is, ARC Audio answering their phones. So if you can explain how calling ARC Audio with an installation question about a product made by JBL would possible help please fell free to enlighten me.
> 
> One reason I was reluctant to sign up for DIYMA is because of a few rude, self righteous wanna be's choosing to be cyber bullies and acting like a jerk to someone they've never met before. Try acting that way in real life and see how far it gets you.
> 
> I was kind of hoping Andy might chime in as he seems to be someone that wants his customers to be happy with the product. There are a lot of Challenger owners that are looking to do the same upgrade I am and would benefit from some constructive dialogue.
> 
> I asked a very detailed, thoughtful question that could make my upgrade go smoothly and didn't deserve the arrogant, snipey response.
> 
> Sorry if you were offended but his BS post simply didn't deserve a better response.


First off, did you consider that he meant JBL, because I am pretty sure he did. He has been very helpful throughout this entire thread, and on the site in general. Perhaps next time, if you feel as though someone responded to you in a sarcastic manner, you should just ignore it so you don't look like an ass.

Secondly, have you called JBL? Since I don't believe anyone in this thread has completed an install in a similar vehicle, they would be the best people to speak with regarding how to integrate it into the vehicle. If calling them isn't an option, you may with to send a PM to Andy, he graciously volunteers his time in this thread from time to time, but he also tends to respond to direct contacts a bit quicker when it comes to product questions.

Third, if you are having it professionally installed, they may have a technical support contact that they work with, have you asked them?


----------



## The Max

SacTownMan said:


> I want to keep my Chrysler Uconnect and 730N HU Nav voice functions. My understanding is these are sent through the center speaker from the factory amp. So my qustion is;
> 
> In order to keep the Uconnect and Nav do I also need to input my center channel output from the factory amp into the MS-8 to be summed into the signal?


I'll chime in but only with a theory. If your navigation uses the centre speaker, passing that signal through to the MS-8 along with the left and right channels will no doubt mess with the processing, in turn confusing the MS-8.

In which case, what would be ideal here is to have the factory amp feed the centre speaker but intercepted by an interface which can mute the centre speaker when there's nothing for the navigation to say. How can this be done?

Not knowing what the signal path is for this vehicle, I'm hoping the factory amp is external to the head unit. If so, that means you can intercept the line level signal coming into the centre speaker, hopefully. The interface I would design would mute the incoming signal based on hopefully a logic signal available from the navigation module. When the navigation kicks in, the navigation module itself will inherently mute the audio going to the MS-8 but it will also trigger your new interface to allow the audio signal for the navigation to pass through to the centre speaker. Then when it's no longer active, the reverse happens.

Again, this is just an idea off the top of my head without even knowing what's in your vehicle but it would be safest to depend on the factory amp to feed the centre speaker, ultimately. It's just the soundstage that you need to address thereafter.

Good luck with it dude.

As for the silence from everyone else, it's better to get silence than to have a thread flooded with a bunch of "no"'s. Know what I mean?


----------



## Hulk311

Hulk311 said:


> Hello gentlemen, just bought a new car and looking to buy a processor so I can install the following:
> 
> RAINBOW CS 265 PROFI VANADIUMs
> ARC AUDIO FD4150
> IDQ12 D2 sub
> 
> I have narrowed my choices down to two processors:
> 
> MS-8 JBL DIGITAL SOUND 7.1 CH SURROUND PROCESSOR MS8
> Rockford Fosgate 3SIXTY.3
> 
> They both cost about the same at eBay.
> 
> What are the main differences, pros/cons of each? And which one will work better with my setup? Main goal is to just have a good sounding system, I don't plan on competing and once I set up the processor I don't plan on changing it, the speakers or sub. Also, I know nothing about tuning and in addition I don't want the "faint hissing noise" that some processors make when they are off or that loud THUMP noise when the stereo is turned on. Thank you.


Any opinions or advice or questions??

I should probably mention that* I will not *be doing the install, I found a guy on here who will install it for me! I just need to know which processor to go with! Thanks! :toff:


----------



## SacTownMan

The Max said:


> I'll chime in but only with a theory. If your navigation uses the centre speaker, passing that signal through to the MS-8 along with the left and right channels will no doubt mess with the processing, in turn confusing the MS-8.
> 
> In which case, what would be ideal here is to have the factory amp feed the centre speaker but intercepted by an interface which can mute the centre speaker when there's nothing for the navigation to say. How can this be done?
> 
> Not knowing what the signal path is for this vehicle, I'm hoping the factory amp is external to the head unit. If so, that means you can intercept the line level signal coming into the centre speaker, hopefully. The interface I would design would mute the incoming signal based on hopefully a logic signal available from the navigation module. When the navigation kicks in, the navigation module itself will inherently mute the audio going to the MS-8 but it will also trigger your new interface to allow the audio signal for the navigation to pass through to the centre speaker. Then when it's no longer active, the reverse happens.
> 
> Again, this is just an idea off the top of my head without even knowing what's in your vehicle but it would be safest to depend on the factory amp to feed the centre speaker, ultimately. It's just the soundstage that you need to address thereafter.
> 
> Good luck with it dude.
> 
> As for the silence from everyone else, it's better to get silence than to have a thread flooded with a bunch of "no"'s. Know what I mean?


Thanks for the input. 

You hit the nail on the head. I called JBL support as suggested and was told the same thing you just thought. The center feed can be summed into the MS-8 input and it should work but there could be delay issues with the Bluetooth phonecalls. He suggested just as you did to use some kind of relay to intercept the center out from the factory amp for Bluetooth but had no idea of what to use to make that happen. So I will try to sum in the center first and see what effect it has. I am using an Audio Control LC8i right now and it seems to be working so far. I just wanted the MS-8 for better signal processing and setting all the levels for my Focal 3 way components in the front and the rear 

I think I am going to wait to do the install until I can make a better amp rack setup in the trunk to house the amps and MS-8. What I have now is in the spare tire well and works but I want to add a little "bling" to show off the gear that hides under the spare tire cover.


----------



## jbradle7

^^^ Not sure if this helps any but worth a look...
2010 Volvo C30 full 5.1 channel build - Page 2
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1125535-post673.html


----------



## SacTownMan

jbradle7 said:


> ^^^ Not sure if this helps any but worth a look...
> 2010 Volvo C30 full 5.1 channel build - Page 2
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1125535-post673.html


Excellent!! That is just the kind of help I was looking for. Just using some additional external speakers running off of the factory amp for the Nav and Bluetooth should work!!

If I feed the factory rears and sub line into the MS-8 and then have the MS-8going to all of the Focals I will have the 5.1 without losing all of the the HU bells and whistles!! 

Should work! Can't wait to give it a try.


----------



## quality_sound

SacTownMan said:


> Sorry if I'm wasting your precious time maybe next time if you don't have something to add maybe you could just STFU!


Mybad on the brain fart. I meant JBL. The point, however, still stands. Stop waiting to be spoon fed. If you need to know something, how hard is it to pick up a phone?


----------



## SacTownMan

quality_sound said:


> Mybad on the brain fart. I meant JBL. The point, however, still stands. Stop waiting to be spoon fed. If you need to know something, how hard is it to pick up a phone?


Yet the phone call to JBL still didn't provide the information I needed to answer my specific question. They were unsure about how to proceed. I was looking for someone that had gone through a similar setup issue or had some working knowledge of a possible solution. 

It took someone with something constructive to add that was willing to take the time to help a total stranger. And he was able to do so without the arrogant attitude.

Amazing concept!! Give it a try sometime!!


----------



## quality_sound

SacTownMan said:


> Yet the phone call to JBL still didn't provide the information I needed to answer my specific question. They were unsure about how to proceed. I was looking for someone that had gone through a similar setup issue or had some working knowledge of a possible solution.
> 
> It took someone with something constructive to add that was willing to take the time to help a total stranger. And he was able to do so without the arrogant attitude.
> 
> Amazing concept!! Give it a try sometime!!


The point was, that should have been your FIRST action, not the one you took because no one would spoon-feed you the as soon as you asked. Which is what ended up happening anyway... Try contributing before coming here and just taking. 

Amazing concept!! Give it a try sometime!!


----------



## SacTownMan

quality_sound said:


> The point was, that should have been your FIRST action, not the one you took because no one would spoon-feed you the as soon as you asked. Which is what ended up happening anyway... Try contributing before coming here and just taking.
> 
> Amazing concept!! Give it a try sometime!!


Dr. Evil "Riiiiight" - YouTube


----------



## LAValleyM35

SO, I had my MS-8 installed last week by my local Best Buy Geek Squad guy. I spoke to him at length before proceeding and he convinced me he could do it well, given the quirks of my Bose system. The MS-8 needs an amp-kit to be installed, so note that if you plan on getting that done. It took him about 7 hours from start to finish, including tuning time. I stayed at the store the whole time and checked in. I was a bit worried since it took so long, but he did a lot of tests of my system. He found that the Bose had more speakers than were wired to the amp in my car's trunk, so he matched up 8 channels in the MS-8 with the 10 speakers out of 14, sharing two wires which was fine. The four in-seat speakers (surround) are powered from the HU. My iPod is plugged into the car's AUX input, not the MS-8. The guy said no difference in clarity. When it was all done (at a fair price) my stereo sounded a lot more fuller, clearer and accurate. I spent some time tinkering with some of the fine tuning on the display, which is very convenient. Now I have to go back and have him install a Sub Rockford Fosgate P3SD4-10 to Alpine amp MRX-M50 (the better one in series). I can't wait, system should be rocking and thumping once its in. Thanks for all your inputs throughout this process. BTW, the guy at Best Buy in Burbank, CA is a very good installer who cares and takes his time to do it right. Message me if you need more info.


----------



## duro78

LAValleyM35 said:


> SO, I had my MS-8 installed last week by my local Best Buy Geek Squad guy. I spoke to him at length before proceeding and he convinced me he could do it well, given the quirks of my Bose system. The MS-8 needs an amp-kit to be installed, so note that if you plan on getting that done. It took him about 7 hours from start to finish, including tuning time. I stayed at the store the whole time and checked in. I was a bit worried since it took so long, but he did a lot of tests of my system. He found that the Bose had more speakers than were wired to the amp in my car's trunk, so he matched up 8 channels in the MS-8 with the 10 speakers out of 14, sharing two wires which was fine. The four in-seat speakers (surround) are powered from the HU. My iPod is plugged into the car's AUX input, not the MS-8. The guy said no difference in clarity. When it was all done (at a fair price) my stereo sounded a lot more fuller, clearer and accurate. I spent some time tinkering with some of the fine tuning on the display, which is very convenient. Now I have to go back and have him install a Sub Rockford Fosgate P3SD4-10 to Alpine amp MRX-M50 (the better one in series). I can't wait, system should be rocking and thumping once its in. Thanks for all your inputs throughout this process. BTW, the guy at Best Buy in Burbank, CA is a very good installer who cares and takes his time to do it right. Message me if you need more info.


Im glad your install was done to your liking considering all the nightmare stories about best buy. I would still go over it to make sure there were no short cuts taken.


Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## LAValleyM35

OK, i went back for my second upgrade stage and had my sub and mono amp installed. It took a while but boy, what a difference it made. My installer did a great job, laying down the Dynamat and tuning my system once completed. The Rockford Fosgate shallow sub is no joke combined with the Alpine MRX amp. I immediately tested it on Dark Side and it was like a symphony. The sales guy at BB turned me on to Alpine R-series compenent and coaxials, which may complete my upgrade. Another $500 to be spent installed, but likely worth it. is there a better mass market speaker available?


----------



## Hertzaholic

Planning on integrating a MS-8 into one of my previous builds I did a long time ago. 

It's a single cab Chevy truck that consists of: 

- 4 tweeters (2 in A-pillars, 2 in kick panels)
- 4 Midrange 6.5's (2 in kick panels, 2 in doors)
- 2 Midbass 6.5's in doors
- 2 Rears 5x7's in factory (ear height) location
- 2 Subs 12's

Looking at everything that's installed at the moment, I would need 10 channels. It's either I run passives on my tweeters or delete the rears.

What would be the best thing to do? Thanks!


----------



## subwoofery

Hertzaholic said:


> Planning on integrating a MS-8 into one of my previous builds I did a long time ago.
> 
> It's a single cab Chevy truck that consists of:
> 
> - 4 tweeters (2 in A-pillars, 2 in kick panels)
> - 4 Midrange 6.5's (2 in kick panels, 2 in doors)
> - 2 Midbass 6.5's in doors
> - 2 Rears 5x7's in factory (ear height) location
> - 2 Subs 12's
> 
> Looking at everything that's installed at the moment, I would need 10 channels. It's either I run passives on my tweeters or delete the rears.
> 
> What would be the best thing to do? Thanks!


- 2 tweeters (2 in A-pillars)
- 2 Midrange 6.5's (2 in doors)
- 2 Midbass 6.5's in doors
- 2 Rears 5x7's in factory (ear height) location
- 2 Subs 12's 

Passive between the tweeter and the midrange (passive better with a crossover around 2.5kHz)

Kelvin


----------



## Fantaxp7

Hello all,

So I purchased the MS-8 some time ago and decided on having a shop install it...Dropped my car off at 9 in the AM and picked it up at 9:30 PM...HOWEVER there is no sound...I can see the little display power up and the remote works...but no FM/AM, iPod or even the CD calibration discs can be heard on my system.

I purposely went to a shop to help avoid any user problems that I see all over these forums...Anyone have an idea what I should be checking?

Thanks


----------



## n_olympios

The best thing to do is go back to the shop and point it out to them. 

I've been a witness to cases like yours, where the client messed with the system trying to rectify the problem, and unable to do so went back to the shop only to be told that it was his fault. Some pros eh?


----------



## duro78

Fantaxp7 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> So I purchased the MS-8 some time ago and decided on having a shop install it...Dropped my car off at 9 in the AM and picked it up at 9:30 PM...HOWEVER there is no sound...I can see the little display power up and the remote works...but no FM/AM, iPod or even the CD calibration discs can be heard on my system.
> 
> I purposely went to a shop to help avoid any user problems that I see all over these forums...Anyone have an idea what I should be checking?
> 
> Thanks


I'm curious as to what the shop said. Im figuring they basically took your money did their socalled best and left you to figure it out. They probably blamed it on something that actually isn't the problem so they could wipe their hands of you. Don't worry you'll get it figured out.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Fantaxp7

n_olympios said:


> The best thing to do is go back to the shop and point it out to them.
> 
> I've been a witness to cases like yours, where the client messed with the system trying to rectify the problem, and unable to do so went back to the shop only to be told that it was his fault. Some pros eh?


Thanks for the reply,

Well they admitted right away that they couldn't get it to work properly and that there wasn't any audio. So I have another appointment...but on Tuesday...which sucks.

But ya, some pros.

I had a gut feeling something would go wrong...


----------



## Fantaxp7

duro78 said:


> I'm curious as to what the shop said. Im figuring they basically took your money did their socalled best and left you to figure it out. They probably blamed it on something that actually isn't the problem so they could wipe their hands of you. Don't worry you'll get it figured out.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


Thanks for the reply,

Luckily they were cool about it and admitted that it wasn't working and that they want it to work before giving it back to me...but damn it was 930 PM and I live 30 min from work...and usually get out at 4 PM.

Anyways they are willing to tackle it again.


----------



## duro78

Fantaxp7 said:


> Thanks for the reply,
> 
> Luckily they were cool about it and admitted that it wasn't working and that they want it to work before giving it back to me...but damn it was 930 PM and I live 30 min from work...and usually get out at 4 PM.
> 
> Anyways they are willing to tackle it again.


Well that's good to hear. That used to piss me off too. Drop my car off in the morning and by the end of business its still not done. I understand theres other ppl to take of but everytime I go there it seems installers are just sitting around bsing. Its a major inconvenience like you mentioned. goodluck and let us know what happens. 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 14642

I suggest reading the manual before going over there so you can show them the 5-minute calibration process. MS-8 doesn't pass audio until it's been set up and I'd be willing to bet that's the problem (or they have the inputs and outputs connected backwards. Or that they've connected the inputs to channels 1 and 5 ad tried to run the calibration disc with an aftermarket radio (which will fail). 

Ask them if they read the manual.


----------



## quietfly

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I suggest reading the manual before going over there so you can show them the 5-minute calibration process. MS-8 doesn't pass audio until it's been set up and I'd be willing to bet that's the problem (or they have the inputs and outputs connected backwards. Or that they've connected the inputs to channels 1 and 5 ad tried to run the calibration disc with an aftermarket radio (which will fail).
> 
> Ask them if they read the manual.


RTFM!!!

Truer words have never been spoken


----------



## Fantaxp7

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I suggest reading the manual before going over there so you can show them the 5-minute calibration process. MS-8 doesn't pass audio until it's been set up and I'd be willing to bet that's the problem (or they have the inputs and outputs connected backwards. Or that they've connected the inputs to channels 1 and 5 ad tried to run the calibration disc with an aftermarket radio (which will fail).
> 
> Ask them if they read the manual.


Thanks for the suggestion, definitely will do.

I personally tried the calibration CD and didn't hear any test tones from my speakers...could this be a sign that he mixed the outputs/inputs are connected backwards? 

I am not using any aftermarket headunit I have an Audi A4 and wanted to keep the stock radio.

Thanks


----------



## Fantaxp7

Well I had a little time to play around with this myself during my lunch break at work...I had no idea what wires he used coming from my car into the MS-8, and at least heard sound out of the center channel and also heard test tones...

So basically the guy didn't read the manual...and who knows what else lol.


----------



## 14642

Fantaxp7 said:


> Well I had a little time to play around with this myself during my lunch break at work...I had no idea what wires he used coming from my car into the MS-8, and at least heard sound out of the center channel and also heard test tones...
> 
> So basically the guy didn't read the manual...and who knows what else lol.


 

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH. MS-8 works differently than a normal signal processor and because of that, it's helpful to spend 15 minutes reading about how to make it work. 

If you'd like me to call them when you take the car back and help them through the installation, I'll be happy to do it. Send me a PM.


----------



## Fantaxp7

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> *ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH.* MS-8 works differently than a normal signal processor and because of that, it's helpful to spend 15 minutes reading about how to make it work.
> 
> If you'd like me to call them when you take the car back and help them through the installation, I'll be happy to do it. Send me a PM.





My feelings exactly.

After work I finally had some more time to play with it...My car, an 09 Audi A4 has a 10 way speaker system with 6 outputs from the stock amp. So 1 for center channel, 2 for the front tweeters/mids, 2 channels for the rear and one for the stock sub. 

Now I specifically told the installer I wanted the front tweeters/mids are going to be run active and they insisted that the crossovers are always best...but still I convinced him to do it my way. 

I talked with an 09 A4 owner who has installed a MS-8 and he says that since our stock amp has 6 outputs, we run that to the MS-8 and then need to add two wires to the front stage so the mid/tweeters can be run active.

After going through calibration a few times I got the center, two dash tweeters and the rear fill to work....I believe that the installer didn't properly wire the front mid/tweets.

Anyways I'll PM you.

Thanks


----------



## peeves24

I've had the ms8 professionally installed and i've been using it for a week now. I liked the simplicity of the unit but I wish that JBL change/improve the display jack port on the ms8 (where you stick in the straight plug on the unit) because it is not sturdy.

I wish the socket was mounted on the face plate or screwed down to the main board so it can withstand a little more abuse instead of just relying on some glue and solder. I dont keep my display mounted, I always remove it after tuning so i do abuse the display port in a way as opposed to leaving it connected. I use the HU volume control.

Started having problems with the ms8 display not working after playing with it on the 2nd day. Sometimes Im getting a "Please wait" message on the display when i turn on the car or sometimes there was no display at all. I unplug/replug/twist the display cable and will eventually get the lucky position so everything will work. I opened up the unit and found the problem, the two front legs of the display port were loose on the main board. I soldered them back and used some hot glue on the port so my unit is working again. The temporary workaround for me is put downward pressure on the straight male plug while its plugged in so it forces the socket to make contact with the board.

Also, during the time Im having this problem, the ms8 remains turned on but processing is always off and leaves my tweeters exposed to a full range signal. Im running my seps on 2-way active using the ms8's internal amp. My installer logically put the tweeters on channel 1 and 2, midbasses on channel 3 and 4. I would also do this if I installed the ms8 on my own, it just seems logical to map it this way assuming the ms8 will always work. Because of the problem I described above with the display port, the ms8 turns on and runs a full range to channels 1 and 2. The tweeters are unprotected and could get fried specially if the person sitting behind the wheel does not know what to listen for (e.g. the wife). The sound will be really weak with no bass so the tendency is to increase the volume on the head unit till you hear any bass or maybe till the tweets get fried and make no sound. To avoid frying my tweeters accidentally, I simply changed the wiring so midbasses are on channels 1 and 2, tweeters on 3 and 4.


----------



## Fantaxp7

SO

Got my car back from a second trip to the audio install shop. This time he says he got it all working...he showed me before I left that there was sound coming from all speakers...which was certainly true and I could tell the sub input was now going through the MS-8...but things didn't sound great though and just wanted to get the hell out of there.

I tried tuning by myself as I figured he did something wrong. Now what I realize is that no matter what configuration I do for speaker input settings, I don't hear sound out of certain channels which leads me to believe he did not properly wire the outputs as I told him. I wanted him make the front channels active...and I told him this multiple times and that he would have to bring wires for two channels out from the MS-8 and to either the front tweeters or mids...best I can figure is he just set the front as 1 way and used crossovers after the MS-8....

So yea overall a bad install experience. My own damn fault as I should have know better...One detail I left out though with the first visit, I pick up my car and he tells me "yea that dynamt you got is crap I had some stuff lying around and installed it for ya"....I had brought in some alpha damp for him to lay on the doors while he was installing...I was furious right then and there.


----------



## 14642

The processing off selection in the audio controls menu doesn't defeat the crossovers. If, for some reason, MS-8 loses it's calibration when you turn the unit off, then it's defective and should be returned.


----------



## Fantaxp7

I found the installer's notes in my trunk, he indeed set the front two speakers as 1 way.

Anyways, I recalibrated with his notes and all channels are working.

However, now I am hearing a loud humming out of my rear right speakers...Anyone know why that might be? It doesn't adjust to the volume and it can fade in and out...


----------



## Shaheenk

@ Andy 

This is one of those slightly more indepth questions.

I have an early BMW, the E30 (old box shaped design from the 80's) 

I am looking to try something different in the car, it has space fro 5inchesin the kick panels but there is not enough space for decent midbass, I also dont want to cut the doors up as I like the stock look of the car.

I am thinking of 2 options, maybe you can guide me .

1. Hybrid 9in 4in and tweeter, 4 and tweeter in kick panels trying to minimise path lengths. 9in woofer in the dash firing down into the floor, I can get away with the space needed under the dash and in the glovebox for this to work. Yes / No /Maybe
2. Same speaker setup but with the 4 and tweeter in the A-Pillar , doubt this would work as the dash is not deep. Midbass in same location
3. Same speakers as above , but with the midbass in the quarter panels BEHIND the driver. not sure if the MS8 will be able to TA this like it does in the newer cars where the MB is under the seat.

Option 2 is slightly different. 
1. USD Horns with Orion 8MB midbass drivers, location for midbass again under dash firing down or behind driver.

Problem with option 2 is X-over point for midbass would be higher up , perhaps up to 500Hz.

Advice


----------



## 14642

Why not just put a good pair of 5" speakers in the kick panels and start there? Then, add the midbass drivers if you really think you need them? From my perspective, there's little use for midbass speakers in the rear quarter panels. You could achieve the same thing by raising the crossover on your sub (so long as it isn't a 6-layer really inductive coil).


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## Shaheenk

Woofers are going to be 3 x Focal 27KX in a sealed enclosure firing into the rear windscreen.

I tried a 5in before and found the car still lacked midbass. The only time I could get it sounding semi right is when I had a pair of 6in drivers in the floor firing up , but this was causing issues when getting in and out and driving.

Here is a pic of the dash layout..




























Midbass in Floor


----------



## Sgriffin

Where can I get a new display cable, mine is messed up. I could also have an issue with the port, but I know I need a cable so I will start there. Would love to get one local if possible is this something RadioShack would have?


----------



## CDT FAN

Sgriffin said:


> Where can I get a new display cable, mine is messed up. I could also have an issue with the port, but I know I need a cable so I will start there. Would love to get one local if possible is this something RadioShack would have?


You can get them from JBL for about $12. However, they are on backorder until the middle of February. I need one myself.


----------



## Sgriffin

Thanks I will give them a shout, sucks I can't get one faster I am in the middle of changing stuff around and have no way to adjust my settings.


----------



## AdamBen

Sgriffin said:


> Where can I get a new display cable, mine is messed up. I could also have an issue with the port, but I know I need a cable so I will start there. Would love to get one local if possible is this something RadioShack would have?


It looks like a 2.5 mm male to male analog cable. But I am not sure if it 3 channel or 2 channel. If someone could take picture of both connector ends, it wouldn't be that hard to match. Although I have been looking for a 2.5 mm male to male and can't find one. Haven't looked too hard though.


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## 14642

It's not available at radio shack. Try our parts department www.jbl.com


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## AdamBen

Its sold in the harmon online store, but the cable is not in stock. I emailed and they expect to have some mid february, thats why I was thinking of matching the cable. 

HarmanAudio.com - Official Online Store of Harman Kardon, JBL, Infinity & AKG


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## justinreinke

Okay I am about to lose my mind with this ms-8 I installed. First I go to set it up and there is no disk in the disk case. Admittedly I boost this BNIB off eBay so I figured someone goofed with the disk. I don't think this is used if so the managed to mount it and use it without leaving any marks at all. I call Jbl and they send me a new disk. A week later I get the disk an now I try to set it up and I can't get past the "Insert disk and press continue" screen. I think my remote is broken. Nothing I press seems to do anything. I thought well maybe the battery is somehow dead. I buy a new battery and still nothing. This nice of crap remote is so frustrating. I have no idea if this damn thing even works? Will I wait yet anotjer week to get a remote only to find out the whole unit is the problem? Is there a way to test this remote or better yet, fix it? I don't see anything burnt up on the circuit board.


----------



## s4k4zulu

justinreinke said:


> Okay I am about to lose my mind with this ms-8 I installed. First I go to set it up and there is no disk in the disk case. Admittedly I boost this BNIB off eBay so I figured someone goofed with the disk. I don't think this is used if so the managed to mount it and use it without leaving any marks at all. I call Jbl and they send me a new disk. A week later I get the disk an now I try to set it up and I can't get past the "Insert disk and press continue" screen. I think my remote is broken. Nothing I press seems to do anything. I thought well maybe the battery is somehow dead. I buy a new battery and still nothing. This nice of crap remote is so frustrating. I have no idea if this damn thing even works? Will I wait yet anotjer week to get a remote only to find out the whole unit is the problem? Is there a way to test this remote or better yet, fix it? I don't see anything burnt up on the circuit board.


Im guessing its too late to return it right? Cuz just the no disk part, is a red flag..


----------



## t3sn4f2

justinreinke said:


> Okay I am about to lose my mind with *this* ms-8 I installed. *First* I go to set it up and there is no disk in the disk case. *Admittedly I boost this BNIB off eBay *so I figured someone goofed with the disk. I don't think this is used if so the managed to mount it and use it without leaving any marks at all. *I call Jbl and they send me a new disk.* *A week later *I get the disk an now I try to set it up and I can't get past the "Insert disk and press continue" screen. I think my remote is broken. Nothing I press seems to do anything. I thought well maybe the battery is somehow dead. I buy a new battery and still nothing. *This nice of crap remote is so frustrating*. *I have no idea if this damn thing even works?* *Will I wait yet anotjer week to get a remote only to find out the whole unit is the problem*? Is there a way to test this remote or better yet, fix it? I don't see anything burnt up on the circuit board.


"You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar"

Since you posted this in about the only place that can maybe bring a resolution to your problem, despite there not being any obligation to.


----------



## justinreinke

Too late to return it. I bought it months ago. I'm just now getting around to installing it. How do you figure a missing disk is a red flag? Weirder things have happened. are you thinking that the whole unit is toast? It turns on. There is a blue light on the unit and the display turns on. I just can't do anything because I can't select continue. I also can't select skip input select not that I want to. With my installation I had to use inputs 1 and 5 instead of 1 and 2 so I need to set up the inputs.


I have no idea what the flies with honey vs vinegar statement is all about? Dispute there not being any obligation to? What does that mean? Are you trying to point out my spelling errors? I'm on a phone so I make mistakes or auto correct Jack's things up. Or are you trying to say I am not worthy of help because I bought a used unit? I buy a lot of second hand stuff and did so with my stereo. I'm on a budget and see no problem with that. Or are you saying I shouldn't bad mouth the remote? I'm sorry but the remote on this unit is pathetically cheap. I doubt I am the only one who thinks that.

So is there no way to verify it is the remote? Could it be something else?


----------



## s4k4zulu

Just thinking out loud, maybe despite its bnib but with a missing disc, seller did try to use it n some happened...but see whether u can borrow a display first n try it out,before u buy


----------



## kaigoss69

You need to chill. We don't work for JBL, so if you want help, you need to stop bashing the product. There is actually one person here who does work for JBL, but he's not obligated to help you either, since you bought from an unauthorized vendor.

You need to get a working remote first and then come back with a positive attitude!


----------



## justinreinke

I hear ya. To be honest I could care less if it was BNIB or used as long as it works. I guess it is possible I got burned but everything seems to power up fine. I hope it is functional. It certanly looked new. Not a mark on it before I installed it. I don't know anyone who uses one of these so borrowing a remote is not likely. Anyone in Colorado Springs who happens to be looking at this post that has a remote I can try?

I'm not bashing the product or the company. I bought the unit because I heard good things about it. I like JBL and they were very helpful in getting a disk out to me. The lady wouldn't even take my money even though I tried to pay because I felt stupid for not checking. I am sorry that I am frustrated. I have been installing this for weeks and I can't get any sound out of it. That is frustrating. I'm sorry I think the remote sucks but let's not blow this out of proportion and equate that to a dislike of the ms-8 or JBL. It does suck, I am not saying that means the rest of the product sucks but the remote is the cheapest remote I have seen on any product.

I know Andy works for JBL and is active on this forum. I also know most others here don't. I realize nobody is obligated to help me. I came on here for help and to tap into the vast amount of knowledge the users on this forum have. I honestly thought somebody would have had a problem with the remote before and could confirm that was my issue or if I should start looking elsewhere. 

Aside from my thoughts on the remote I think something is being lost in what I am writing, what some of you are reading and what I am meaning. I'm sorry if it sounds like I have a bad attitude. That is not my intent. I am sure a lot of people come here to start a fight. That is not what I am trying to do. I just what to get my stereo working already. I have put a lot of time, money and effort into it. Please keep the attacks on my character based on posts fueled by frustration out of this.


----------



## t3sn4f2

kaigoss69 said:


> *You need to chill. We don't work for JBL, so if you want help, you need to stop bashing the product. There is actually one person here who does work for JBL, but he's not obligated to help you either, since you bought from an unauthorized vendor.*You need to get a working remote first and then come back with a positive attitude!


...


----------



## justinreinke

That's not very helpful. Can we get past your perception of my post and move on? I get it, you don't like what I said. I am not trying to start a war here. I have a legitimate concern and I am looking for help.

If the remote is unresponsive and I can't navigate the display is a remote failure the only possible reason? Are there any known causes for remote failure? If so, are there any fixes? Are my symptoms indicative of any other ms-8 problem?.


----------



## sorari

hi there. i ussualy just read and learn and then applying what i'm getting in this forum. but this time i found an issue on my installation. my system is 3 way front with tweeter and midrange on the dash with custom mounting. the midbass in original place of ford fiesta 2011. the sub is at the back. my issue is whenever i add the sub, the bass is pulling to the back. its not solid on the front. my x over setting is 20hz subsonic, 60hz, 400hz and 4000hz. all with 24db. without the sub, the sound is amazing, just lacking the big bass. i'm using the internal amp of ms8. all speaker in correct phase. i try various cutting and switching the sub phase, but cannot solve the bass issue. system is p99rs(i'm to lazy to do manual setting), dynaudio esotec md 102 tweeter,with legatia L4 and flux bc 621 midbass. the sub is jbl sweet 8inch. perhaps the guru here can give me a hint ? many thanks before.


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## taibanl

@sorari

You said you HU is p99rs as you are too lazy to do manual setting

Wht signal are you feeding Ms-8? It needs only a full range l/r. No more. All the crossover magic and tuning will happen with ms-8


----------



## kaigoss69

sorari said:


> hi there. i ussualy just read and learn and then applying what i'm getting in this forum. but this time i found an issue on my installation. my system is 3 way front with tweeter and midrange on the dash with custom mounting. the midbass in original place of ford fiesta 2011. the sub is at the back. my issue is whenever i add the sub, the bass is pulling to the back. its not solid on the front. my x over setting is 20hz subsonic, 60hz, 400hz and 4000hz. all with 24db. without the sub, the sound is amazing, just lacking the big bass. i'm using the internal amp of ms8. all speaker in correct phase. i try various cutting and switching the sub phase, but cannot solve the bass issue. system is p99rs(i'm to lazy to do manual setting), dynaudio esotec md 102 tweeter,with legatia L4 and flux bc 621 midbass. the sub is jbl sweet 8inch. perhaps the guru here can give me a hint ? many thanks before.


The main problem I believe, and my only main gripe with the MS-8, is that there is no time alignment to the sub. Therefore your only options to get up-front bass are a) reversing polarity of the sub and b) finding the optimal crossover frequency and crossover slope. 

However, I believe you're in luck though since you have a HU with T/A and separate subwoofer output. While I have not done this myself I think it is possible to run the sub output from the HU straight into your sub amp and you will then be able to add the right amount of delay for your set-up.


----------



## taibanl

kaigoss69 said:


> The main problem I believe, and my only main gripe with the MS-8, is that there is no time alignment to the sub. Therefore your only options to get up-front bass are a) reversing polarity of the sub and b) finding the optimal crossover frequency and crossover slope.
> 
> However, I believe you're in luck though since you have a HU with T/A and separate subwoofer output. While I have not done this myself I think it is possible to run the sub output from the HU straight into your sub amp and you will then be able to add the right amount of delay for your set-up.


. Kaigoss I think the posters problem may be that he is layering the time alignment between the MS8 and the Pioneer. Either you autotune with one, or the other, not both


----------



## kaigoss69

taibanl said:


> . Kaigoss I think the posters problem may be that he is layering the time alignment between the MS8 and the Pioneer. Either you autotune with one, or the other, not both


I didn't read it that way.


----------



## sorari

@taibanl
i feed it using rca full range to channel 1 and 2, no T/A and no xover. using ms 8 to do the work with the auto tune.

@kaigoss69
yes, thats what i'm thinking. ms 8 do not T/A the sub. i'm not using T/A of P99RS for the sub, considering the ms8 will add delay and i do not use separate power amp for the sub. i guest i have to accept the limitation. will try again with various xover and phase.

thanks all


----------



## kaigoss69

sorari said:


> @taibanl
> i feed it using rca full range to channel 1 and 2, no T/A and no xover. using ms 8 to do the work with the auto tune.
> 
> @kaigoss69
> yes, thats what i'm thinking. ms 8 do not T/A the sub. i'm not using T/A of P99RS for the sub, considering the ms8 will add delay and i do not use separate power amp for the sub. i guest i have to accept the limitation. will try again with various xover and phase.
> 
> thanks all


You're powering the sub with the MS-8???


----------



## subwoofery

kaigoss69 said:


> You're powering the sub with the MS-8???


That's what I understood from his very 1st post :worried:
Lucky the MS-8 hasn't shut down from overheating yet...

Kelvin


----------



## sorari

subwoofery said:


> That's what I understood from his very 1st post :worried:
> Lucky the MS-8 hasn't shut down from overheating yet...
> 
> Kelvin


yes, the sub is loud enough for me despite the small 8". and i never experience overheating on the ms8, it only get warm which i think is normal. just wondering, why cant i power the sub directly ? the impedance is the same, and the 18 watts for big sensitif speaker is more than enough for normal listening. sorry just a noob question.


----------



## kaigoss69

sorari said:


> yes, the sub is loud enough for me despite the small 8". and i never experience overheating on the ms8, it only get warm which i think is normal. just wondering, why cant i power the sub directly ? the impedance is the same, and the 18 watts for big sensitif speaker is more than enough for normal listening. sorry just a noob question.


18W is just not enough to get a sub to do what it needs to do, even at low volumes. May I suggest the possibility that you have been listening to a steady dose of distortion since the MS-8 is likely clipping the sub output, which may also cause/contribute to your imaging issues with the subwoofer?


----------



## sorari

kaigoss69 said:


> 18W is just not enough to get a sub to do what it needs to do, even at low volumes. May I suggest the possibility that you have been listening to a steady dose of distortion since the MS-8 is likely clipping the sub output, which may also cause/contribute to your imaging issues with the subwoofer?


Yes, i was thinking the same about the sub. But its good enough for me with current config. And i dont experience clipping with this jbl gto804, unless i crank up the volume like crazy. Anyway, i'm closser to solve this issue. My tweeter and midbass indeed had a reverse phase, my phase checker must be malfunction. After fixing the phase, the bass is moving forward, but there's still room for some improvement. Mann... This is sweettt !!! Hahaha... Thanks though for trying to help me


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> The main problem I believe, and my only main gripe with the MS-8, is that there is no time alignment to the sub. Therefore your only options to get up-front bass are a) reversing polarity of the sub and b) finding the optimal crossover frequency and crossover slope.
> 
> However, I believe you're in luck though since you have a HU with T/A and separate subwoofer output. While I have not done this myself I think it is possible to run the sub output from the HU straight into your sub amp and you will then be able to add the right amount of delay for your set-up.


 
OK, first...Up front bass is certainly possible without time alignment on the sub. I've tuned thousands of cars--even before time alignment was available for cars--and it's certainly no requirement.


----------



## 14642

justinreinke said:


> That's not very helpful. Can we get past your perception of my post and move on? I get it, you don't like what I said. I am not trying to start a war here. I have a legitimate concern and I am looking for help.
> 
> If the remote is unresponsive and I can't navigate the display is a remote failure the only possible reason? Are there any known causes for remote failure? If so, are there any fixes? Are my symptoms indicative of any other ms-8 problem?.


There are two possibilities:

1. The remmote is bad.
2. The display is an old one from the first production run. RF reception performance was improved.

Your choices:
1. Return your BNIB to eBay and buy a new one from an authorized seller.
2. Call or email our parts department (www.JBL.com) to see if you can get a replacement screen and remote. If you're nice, they may waive the requirement for a receipt from an authorized seller. If you sound on the phone like you sounded originally on the forum, they'll probably sell you one if they have them in stock.


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> 18W is just not enough to get a sub to do what it needs to do, even at low volumes. May I suggest the possibility that you have been listening to a steady dose of distortion since the MS-8 is likely clipping the sub output, which may also cause/contribute to your imaging issues with the subwoofer?


I've run the under seat subs in BMWs on MS-8's internal amp many times. So long as you don't need high volumes, there's nothing inherently different about driving a sub than a smaller speaker with a constant voltage source (which is what car amps are). 

Now, MS-8 attempts to set the sub level about 9 dB higher than the rest of the speakers. That's a LOT of additional power. Kai's suggetsion that you may be driving the subs into distortion might be one of the reasons that you hear the bass coming from the sub.

Also, after setup, try cutting 60-120Hz in the 31-Band EQ until thebass moves to the front.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> OK, first...Up front bass is certainly possible without time alignment on the sub. I've tuned thousands of cars--even before time alignment was available for cars--and it's certainly no requirement.


Ha ha, now I've started something...


----------



## 14642

How about this?
Good-sounding upfront bass isn't easy when you have a sub with a 20dB peak in the response at 70Hz with an MS-8.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I've run the under seat subs in BMWs on MS-8's internal amp many times. *So long as you don't need high volumes*, there's nothing inherently different about driving a sub than a smaller speaker with a constant voltage source (which is what car amps are).
> 
> Now, MS-8 attempts to set the sub level about 9 dB higher than the rest of the speakers. That's a LOT of additional power. Kai's suggetsion that you may be driving the subs into distortion might be one of the reasons that you hear the bass coming from the sub.
> 
> Also, after setup, try cutting 60-120Hz in the 31-Band EQ until thebass moves to the front.


Andy, I'm far from being a bass-head teenager but even my aging ears like the way it sounds (and feels) when I crank it past the 18W level. The BMW underseats are fairly efficient, they are right under your cheeks, and there are two of them, but even with 18W each the limit of the amp is reached very quickly, and leaves a lot to be desired. Now when I think what only one 18W channel would do on a less efficient single aftermarket sub in the trunk, I just can't imagine that would be enough for anyone.


----------



## 14642

I'll buy that for a dollar.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'll buy that for a dollar.


 LOL I'll take it! 

Now, how does MS-8 achieve up-front bass without T/A (assuming a not too peaky sub)??? Or, what "tricks" should we use to achieve it? Surely your answer would have something to do with levels, x-over points and slopes, no? Any suggestions?


----------



## rcurley55

I tried posting this in the General Forum, but should have just placed it here. Sorry for the cross-post but:

I updated the firmware in an attempt to alleviate the bluetooth echo issue. Is there a way to restore my firmware to the original setting?

I've searched everywhere and can't seem to find an answer.


----------



## justinreinke

Well I hope it isn't the display. I just ordered a new remote and it was a whopping $47. That seems a bit extreme for what it is. If it is the display there is no way I could afford to replace that. I imagine I would be looking at well more than $100 for one. If the remote doesn't work I'll return the remote to recoup my $47 and just be stuck with a worthless ms-8 and no stereo until I figure something else out. Unfortunately I can't return the ms-8. I bought it back in September used off eBay. Sorry I couldn't afford a new one. I took a gamble and probably lost.

So the rf goes through the display? I was literally inches away from the display so it would be more than just poor. Any ideas on how to repair the rf in the display?


----------



## nineball

wish i would have seen your post sooner, i have a spare ms-8 remote that has never been used sitting on the shelf.


----------



## 14642

justinreinke said:


> Well I hope it isn't the display. I just ordered a new remote and it was a whopping $47. That seems a bit extreme for what it is. If it is the display there is no way I could afford to replace that. I imagine I would be looking at well more than $100 for one. If the remote doesn't work I'll return the remote to recoup my $47 and just be stuck with a worthless ms-8 and no stereo until I figure something else out. Unfortunately I can't return the ms-8. I bought it back in September used off eBay. Sorry I couldn't afford a new one. I took a gamble and probably lost.
> 
> So the rf goes through the display? I was literally inches away from the display so it would be more than just poor. Any ideas on how to repair the rf in the display?


The transmission power of the remote was also increased by about 20dB. I'll bet the new one will be fine.


----------



## sorari

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I've run the under seat subs in BMWs on MS-8's internal amp many times. So long as you don't need high volumes, there's nothing inherently different about driving a sub than a smaller speaker with a constant voltage source (which is what car amps are).
> 
> Now, MS-8 attempts to set the sub level about 9 dB higher than the rest of the speakers. That's a LOT of additional power. Kai's suggetsion that you may be driving the subs into distortion might be one of the reasons that you hear the bass coming from the sub.
> 
> Also, after setup, try cutting 60-120Hz in the 31-Band EQ until thebass moves to the front.


Thanks for the hint. I just decrease the bass level on the tone control, and it sound much better. Will try your suggestion.


----------



## CDT FAN

nineball said:


> wish i would have seen your post sooner, i have a spare ms-8 remote that has never been used sitting on the shelf.


You wouldn't happen to have a spare display cable, would you? JBL has them on backorder until Feb 15th. I am hoping they won't bump the date again.


----------



## sorari

sorari said:


> Thanks for the hint. I just decrease the bass level on the tone control, and it sound much better. Will try your suggestion.


Mr Andy, your suggestion works. The EQ that I cut is 20-80hz. The blend is much much better. And to my ear that's good enough for me to enjoy it. I use to drive the speaker with mosconi as100.4 (2pcs) running all channel and scanspeak 23w in bridge mode feed directly to p99rs. I never listen to it in high volume. With this MS-8 running on its internal amp, I'm extremely very satisfied. And almost no one could not believe I'm only running with MS-8 internal amp. Cant wait to install it in another car. Thanks a lot...


----------



## taibanl

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> There are two possibilities:
> 
> 1. The remmote is bad.
> *2. The display is an old one from the first production run. RF reception performance was improved.*
> 
> Your choices:
> 1. Return your BNIB to eBay and buy a new one from an authorized seller.
> 2. *Call or email our parts department (www.JBL.com) to see if you can get a replacement screen and remote.* If you're nice, they may waive the requirement for a receipt from an authorized seller. If you sound on the phone like you sounded originally on the forum, they'll probably sell you one if they have them in stock.


Andy. What is the expected RF range? My range is about 24," no more...do I have a bad display&remote? Can I get an exchange (purchased by authorized dealer).


----------



## btolenti

Gents,

Got an MS-8 from a buddy who stepped up to a bit one. Installed it over the weekend and was able to set it up initially last night and the screen worked fine. This morning, I got into my car to head to work and realized the display no longer worked. Still got sound through the MS-8, light was on, and the remote still works to raise/lower the volume and mute the sound.

I reset both the MS-8 and the display, but that didn't help. I have noticed that if I unplug the cord on the display side and then reconnect it, it will flash "please wait" for a few seconds then shut off. Any ideas what the problem could be?


----------



## quietfly

btolenti said:


> Gents,
> 
> Got an MS-8 from a buddy who stepped up to a bit one. Installed it over the weekend and was able to set it up initially last night and the screen worked fine. This morning, I got into my car to head to work and realized the display no longer worked. Still got sound through the MS-8, light was on, and the remote still works to raise/lower the volume and mute the sound.
> 
> I reset both the MS-8 and the display, but that didn't help. I have noticed that if I unplug the cord on the display side and then reconnect it, it will flash "please wait" for a few seconds then shut off. Any ideas what the problem could be?


check/ reseat the display cable on both sides. i've seen people have this issue when the plug was not fully seated on both sides.


----------



## btolenti

Ive double and triple checked to make sure both ends are firmly connected. Also checked the wire continuity and it was fine. My only next step was to open her up and see if it is a connector to board issue. Just found it odd that the display went blank but the remote still works and that it suddenly happened out of the blue......


----------



## quietfly

from what i understand the remote is RF and the antenna is the display cord, so that fact that it works is not unusual.


----------



## btolenti

Hmmmm.....i thought i read that the remote communicated with the display directly.....not the ms-8 base unit.....


----------



## 14642

The Microcontroller for the display to DSP communication is in the display and so is the RF receiver. IF the display reads "please wait..." it's an indication that it isn't plugged in completely or the connector is bad. IS the right angle connector plugged into the display or the box? Did your friend who "Stepped up to a Bit One" also provide an owner's manual?


----------



## btolenti

He upgraded to have a little more manual tweaking power.....didn't mean to try and bash the MS-8.....

Yes, I do have a manual. The right angle connector is firmly connected to the display and the straight connector is firmly connected to the MS-8. The display does come on for a few seconds when I disconnect and reconnect the cable. It just turns off (varies from 1-5 seconds I would say) before getting to the main menu.

What's odd to me is that it was working one night - I set up the crossovers and ran through one calibration. Next morning, screen refused to come on..... Bad coincidence, whatever it is....


----------



## btolenti

Just to add.....the ms-8 still passes signal to the tweets fed from the ms-8 internal amp and to amps fed from the line level outputs.


----------



## doeboy

I thought I had my ms-8 plugged in and then the display wouldn't operate right and I go back and push the plug and it goes in further.. whaaa laa


----------



## justinreinke

Crap, I got my $47 remote today and there is no change. I guess the display is bad? Is there any fix for this? Any way to fix the rf reception in the display? What exactly was the issue with the display causing them to not have reception? I had the remote less than an inch from the display so there must not be any reception at all. Is it a solder joint that fails or something like that? Can I crack it open and fix it?


----------



## btolenti

May be a dumb question.....but did you check to make sure the new remote came with a battery???


----------



## t3sn4f2

btolenti said:


> May be a dumb question.....but did you check to make sure the new remote came with a battery???


Or a good one.


----------



## justinreinke

Uggh! Yeah I checked the battery. So I pulled the display out and took it apart to check it out. I didn't see anything that looked off but noticed the button in the display. I plugged it in while apart and pressed the button a few times as a hail Mary. It now works. Not sure if it was the button or jostling something loose but it works. Oddly enough with the new remote the menu button does not work. With the old remote it does work. I wish I would have known to mess with the display before I ordered the remote. That sucker was expensive. 

Now I have the dreaded weak midbass so I have some reading to do. At high volumes the midbass comes in with the gains turned up when things start waking up the missing straight up cut out completely. I need to read up and see if there is a reason for that. The good news is that even with the mid range speakers and tweets in the dash firing into the window sounds way better than it should. The vocals are on the center of my dash with no wandering. Everything seems to be separated and in a good place. I didn't think that would be possible from what I read. It is a little narrow but I think I can figure that out. So far I'm pretty impressed other than the midbass stuff. When I get a sub that should help though.


----------



## abirvalg

*can ms-8 get too cold?*

can ms-8 get too cold? 
Poor thing won't fire up after the car sits outside the whole day in under ~15 degrees.  Any time it's over that everything works fine. But when it gets cold ms-8 won't start. The blue light comes on, but the display is OFF and the signal isn't going through. The sub amp (MA n2) gets some messed up remote signal and turns from blue to red and back to blue and so on ...

The ground is secure as far as i can tell. None of the other connectors are loose either.

Anyone else had to shop for mittens for their ms-8? I feel like i bought a chihuahua.


----------



## shamie

Mine has worked fine this winter in colder temps than that - no sub-zero, but single digits. My bass is nonexistant until my drivers warm up though.


----------



## 14642

LCDs hate sub-freezing temperatures. 

Regarding the midbass, check the speaker polarity in the front. that'll kill midbass for sure (in fact, I just finished "fixing" an installation that had no midbass for this very reason.


----------



## duro78

Agreed during the winter I have to have the remote an inch away from the display but during the spring it works anywhere in the car. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## abirvalg

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> LCDs hate sub-freezing temperatures.


that shouldn't stop the rest of the system from functioning, or should it?
i've tried unplugging the monitor, that still didn't make the unit work
it starts playing only after the interior warms up a bit, even though the light's on all the time


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: can ms-8 get too cold?*



abirvalg said:


> can ms-8 get too cold?
> Poor thing won't fire up after the car sits outside the whole day in under ~15 degrees.  Any time it's over that everything works fine. But when it gets cold ms-8 won't start. The blue light comes on, but the display is OFF and the signal isn't going through. The sub amp (MA n2) gets some messed up remote signal and turns from blue to red and back to blue and so on ...
> 
> The ground is secure as far as i can tell. None of the other connectors are loose either.
> 
> Anyone else had to shop for mittens for their ms-8? I feel like i bought a chihuahua.


Buy a class A amp and install your MS-8 on top of it  

Kelvin


----------



## Bluenote

^LOL that was good.


----------



## abirvalg

i'm thinking of just hugging it ... always


----------



## abirvalg

*Re: 05' Acura TL and MS-8*

Hey, Andy!

So, i finally ended up with the tune i love, but at the cost of some convenience.

As you've told me earlier my Acura TL has one of those rare breed HUs that can't down-mix 5.1 for MS-8 to take all the channels, thus the center needs to be skipped. Later you've also suggested to skip the rears. In the end i have fronts and sub plugged into the RCAs. The problem that i'm having is related to the HU yet again. I have to set the volume to 35 on the scale of 40 for MS-8 to accept it as low level input. I think my HU starts to cut bass at around or just under 30, which means i'm well into "weak bass" territory by the time MS-8 gets the voltage it's looking for.

Now to the issue itself. If i leave HU at 35 and use the MS-8 remote to control the volume it's all great. But you know how you guys have made your remote symmetrical, probably thinking if someone was blind they won't be driving too far anyway?  Well, steering wheel controls ARE designed for blind people and are much more convenient. But if i crank the MS-8 to -10 and use my HUs volume, i end up in the "full range" zone and the extra bass messes things up making lows and mid-lows all bunched up into a mush.

I have tried running without the channel summing and didn't like the outcome. The fronts alone are probably not full range and need the sub to be present.

You've mentioned that line drivers aren't needed with MS-8. Could it be that my HU is an exception once again? Or do you have some other tricks up your seemingly bottomless sleeve to allow me to have both the awesome sound and the steering wheel controls?


----------



## Fantaxp7

This may be a stupid question but I see a lot of people mentioning swapping polarities on their speakers and having night and day differences...is there a good way to check if polarities are bad or not?

Thanks


----------



## abirvalg

to check the polarity use a AA battery + to+ and -to- should move your speaker out
swapping the sub polarity* just for the time of the calibrtion *may be beneficial depending on the distance to the sub, try it both ways, see what feels better


----------



## vsaudi

Finally got MS-8/JL Audio configuration right thanks to Andy's posts. 
Amazing sound.


----------



## Fantaxp7

abirvalg said:


> to check the polarity use a AA battery + to+ and -to- should move your speaker out
> swapping the sub polarity* just for the time of the calibrtion *may be beneficial depending on the distance to the sub, try it both ways, see what feels better


Thanks for the info


----------



## fuji6

*Re: 05' Acura TL and MS-8*



abirvalg said:


> Hey, Andy!
> 
> So, i finally ended up with the tune i love, but at the cost of some convenience.
> 
> As you've told me earlier my Acura TL has one of those rare breed HUs that can't down-mix 5.1 for MS-8 to take all the channels, thus the center needs to be skipped. Later you've also suggested to skip the rears. In the end i have fronts and sub plugged into the RCAs. The problem that i'm having is related to the HU yet again. I have to set the volume to 35 on the scale of 40 for MS-8 to accept it as low level input. I think my HU starts to cut bass at around or just under 30, which means i'm well into "weak bass" territory by the time MS-8 gets the voltage it's looking for.
> 
> Now to the issue itself. If i leave HU at 35 and use the MS-8 remote to control the volume it's all great. But you know how you guys have made your remote symmetrical, probably thinking if someone was blind they won't be driving too far anyway?  Well, steering wheel controls ARE designed for blind people and are much more convenient. But if i crank the MS-8 to -10 and use my HUs volume, i end up in the "full range" zone and the extra bass messes things up making lows and mid-lows all bunched up into a mush.
> 
> I have tried running without the channel summing and didn't like the outcome. The fronts alone are probably not full range and need the sub to be present.
> 
> You've mentioned that line drivers aren't needed with MS-8. Could it be that my HU is an exception once again? Or do you have some other tricks up your seemingly bottomless sleeve to allow me to have both the awesome sound and the steering wheel controls?


I'm not Andy, but I would suggest trolling the Acura forums for little bit and seeing if there is an option or hack to turn off that headunit "feature". Might save you some money and time. Sorry if you already looked into this.


----------



## abirvalg

yeah, i've found 2-3 other MS-8 users there and most of them already moved on from it


----------



## LovesMusic

Hi Andy or whoever has the answers,

I run 0 gauge into the car and then distro 4 gauge out to amps and 8 gauge to the ms8...
Id like to cut down on the distro and was wondering if I can simply power the ms8 through an empty in my fuse box using add-a-circuit, 10 gauge, & 25amp fuse? 

I do not use the ms8 to power any speakers, it is strictly used for processing and crossovers, I assume the high fuse rating is in lue of the 8 ch amplification...?


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

LovesMusic said:


> Hi Andy or whoever has the answers,
> 
> I run 0 gauge into the car and then distro 4 gauge out to amps and 8 gauge to the ms8...
> Id like to cut down on the distro and was wondering if I can simply power the ms8 through an empty in my fuse box using add-a-circuit, 10 gauge, & 25amp fuse?
> 
> I do not use the ms8 to power any speakers, it is strictly used for processing and crossovers, I assume the high fuse rating is in lue of the 8 ch amplification...?


Not "in lieu of" but "because of" in that regard. 

The maximum current draw for the MS-8 is 16 amps per the specifications sheet. That assumes all channels driven, plus the signal processing. I would be very surprised if the MS-8 pulled more than 2-3 amperes when doing only signal processing duties.

Are you running that 10 AWG strictly for the MS-8? If so, no problem. You're already way past the requirements, even if you were driving it balls out. 

For the English nerds:

"I ran a 10 AWG fused at 20 amps for my MS-8, but when I realized that I wasn't going to use the MS-8 internal amplifier, I used a 5 amp fuse _in lieu of_ the 20 amp one, just to be safe." :blush:


----------



## LovesMusic

Fast Hot Rod said:


> Not "in lieu of" but "because of" in that regard.
> 
> The maximum current draw for the MS-8 is 16 amps per the specifications sheet. That assumes all channels driven, plus the signal processing. I would be very surprised if the MS-8 pulled more than 2-3 amperes when doing only signal processing duties.
> 
> Are you running that 10 AWG strictly for the MS-8? If so, no problem. You're already way past the requirements, even if you were driving it balls out.
> 
> For the English nerds:
> 
> "I ran a 10 AWG fused at 20 amps for my MS-8, but when I realized that I wasn't going to use the MS-8 internal amplifier, I used a 5 amp fuse _in lieu of_ the 20 amp one, just to be safe." :blush:



Yes, great. thanks.


----------



## 14642

*Re: 05' Acura TL and MS-8*



abirvalg said:


> Hey, Andy!
> 
> So, i finally ended up with the tune i love, but at the cost of some convenience.
> 
> As you've told me earlier my Acura TL has one of those rare breed HUs that can't down-mix 5.1 for MS-8 to take all the channels, thus the center needs to be skipped. Later you've also suggested to skip the rears. In the end i have fronts and sub plugged into the RCAs. The problem that i'm having is related to the HU yet again. I have to set the volume to 35 on the scale of 40 for MS-8 to accept it as low level input. I think my HU starts to cut bass at around or just under 30, which means i'm well into "weak bass" territory by the time MS-8 gets the voltage it's looking for.
> 
> Now to the issue itself. If i leave HU at 35 and use the MS-8 remote to control the volume it's all great. But you know how you guys have made your remote symmetrical, probably thinking if someone was blind they won't be driving too far anyway?  Well, steering wheel controls ARE designed for blind people and are much more convenient. But if i crank the MS-8 to -10 and use my HUs volume, i end up in the "full range" zone and the extra bass messes things up making lows and mid-lows all bunched up into a mush.
> 
> I have tried running without the channel summing and didn't like the outcome. The fronts alone are probably not full range and need the sub to be present.
> 
> You've mentioned that line drivers aren't needed with MS-8. Could it be that my HU is an exception once again? Or do you have some other tricks up your seemingly bottomless sleeve to allow me to have both the awesome sound and the steering wheel controls?


Well...if it were my car, I'd pick up another remote and bury it in the steering wheel somewhere. Then, I'd mod the factory steering wheel buttons as "jumpers" around the volume up and down buttons on the MS-8 remote. Then, I'd set the factory volume control at 35 and never touch it again.


----------



## nineball

i have an extra remote if you follow andy's advice and need one


----------



## abirvalg

*Re: 05' Acura TL and MS-8*



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well...if it were my car, I'd pick up another remote and bury it in the steering wheel somewhere. Then, I'd mod the factory steering wheel buttons as "jumpers" around the volume up and down buttons on the MS-8 remote. Then, I'd set the factory volume control at 35 and never touch it again.


:rockon:

this is WAY over my head!
while i do have an extra remote from my other MS-8 which i rarely use (thanks for the offer)
i'm afraid though it's an extra steering column i might need if i botch anything 

going back to the freezing unit, i've triple checked all of the the connections and soaked some solder into the spade terminals everywhere, so at this point ALL of the interconnects except for factory radio harness and positive dist block are soldered, yet when it got a cold again the MS-8 hesitated to start

Andy, have you ever seen a unit that did that? 
i'm just wondering if it makes sense to call tech support or if they'll be as puzzled as i am


----------



## Shaheenk

as I dont have my 2nd MS8 and I plan on precabing my car, has anyone tried to use and extension cable for the display. It's a 4 pole Stereo plug, so a normal extension should keep the pinouts and contacts the same.

Maybe I can lay this and when the MS8 comes plug the display cable in the boot and the display in the front, bearing in mind this will now be a 10M cable run.


----------



## vitchie

Hi guys

Installed my MS-8 this past weekend and the sound is ok, but can definitely improve. I'm not an expert in car audio, so very limited knowledge. Here are the details of my car and install, can you please give me some advice, especially around the crossover points and sub amp gain.

2013 F30 BMW 328i 6-channel Euro base (No factory amp, everything by HU)

Audio Components:
4x 4" factory speakers in the doors (Mid/Hi since the car does not have tweeters)
2x 8" factory underseat woofers
1x 12" sub integrated unit with dedicated amp.

Everything except the 12" sub is driven off the MS-8 from 6 channels.

I've set the crossovers as follows:
Sub: 20hz subsonic 24db curve, 80hz low pass with 18db curve
Underseat woofers: 80hz highpass 18db curve, 170hz low pass with 6db curve
Front 4": 170hz highpass with 6db cruve
Rear(Side) 4": 160hz highpass with 24db curve

Should I adjust any of these?

Then onto my second question. The gain on the sub amp is currently set to minimum level. At very low system volume, there is a lot of base, enough, almost a bit too much. As I raise the overall system volume, the sub gets drowned out by the factory speakers to the point where all low bass seems to disappear. Where should the gain level of the sub amp sit during calibration and afterwards? The sweep from the sub is quite low in comparison to the factory speakers. maybe the sub amp is underpowered? Here are 2 pictures of my sub kit:


----------



## 14642

*Re: 05' Acura TL and MS-8*



abirvalg said:


> :rockon:
> 
> this is WAY over my head!
> while i do have an extra remote from my other MS-8 which i rarely use (thanks for the offer)
> i'm afraid though it's an extra steering column i might need if i botch anything
> 
> going back to the freezing unit, i've triple checked all of the the connections and soaked some solder into the spade terminals everywhere, so at this point ALL of the interconnects except for factory radio harness and positive dist block are soldered, yet when it got a cold again the MS-8 hesitated to start
> 
> Andy, have you ever seen a unit that did that?
> i'm just wondering if it makes sense to call tech support or if they'll be as puzzled as i am


LCDs HATE cold weather. Sorry guys, no fix for a sluggish start-up when it's super cold.


----------



## 14642

vitchie said:


> Hi guys
> 
> Installed my MS-8 this past weekend and the sound is ok, but can definitely improve. I'm not an expert in car audio, so very limited knowledge. Here are the details of my car and install, can you please give me some advice, especially around the crossover points and sub amp gain.
> 
> 2013 F30 BMW 328i 6-channel Euro base (No factory amp, everything by HU)
> 
> Audio Components:
> 4x 4" factory speakers in the doors (Mid/Hi since the car does not have tweeters)
> 2x 8" factory underseat woofers
> 1x 12" sub integrated unit with dedicated amp.
> 
> Everything except the 12" sub is driven off the MS-8 from 6 channels.
> 
> I've set the crossovers as follows:
> Sub: 20hz subsonic 24db curve, 80hz low pass with 18db curve
> Underseat woofers: 80hz highpass 18db curve, 170hz low pass with 6db curve
> Front 4": 170hz highpass with 6db cruve
> Rear(Side) 4": 160hz highpass with 24db curve
> 
> Should I adjust any of these?
> 
> Then onto my second question. The gain on the sub amp is currently set to minimum level. At very low system volume, there is a lot of base, enough, almost a bit too much. As I raise the overall system volume, the sub gets drowned out by the factory speakers to the point where all low bass seems to disappear. Where should the gain level of the sub amp sit during calibration and afterwards? The sweep from the sub is quite low in comparison to the factory speakers. maybe the sub amp is underpowered? Here are 2 pictures of my sub kit:


 
Sometimes tuning MS-8 with an active sub can be a little tricky. First, set the crossover on the active sub to the highest possible frequency. Then, it sounds like you'll need to turn the gain up a little bit.


----------



## kaigoss69

vitchie said:


> Hi guys
> 
> Installed my MS-8 this past weekend and the sound is ok, but can definitely improve. I'm not an expert in car audio, so very limited knowledge. Here are the details of my car and install, can you please give me some advice, especially around the crossover points and sub amp gain.
> 
> 2013 F30 BMW 328i 6-channel Euro base (No factory amp, everything by HU)
> 
> Audio Components:
> 4x 4" factory speakers in the doors (Mid/Hi since the car does not have tweeters)
> 2x 8" factory underseat woofers
> 1x 12" sub integrated unit with dedicated amp.
> 
> Everything except the 12" sub is driven off the MS-8 from 6 channels.
> 
> I've set the crossovers as follows:
> Sub: 20hz subsonic 24db curve, 80hz low pass with 18db curve
> Underseat woofers: 80hz highpass 18db curve, 170hz low pass with 6db curve
> Front 4": 170hz highpass with 6db cruve
> Rear(Side) 4": 160hz highpass with 24db curve
> 
> Should I adjust any of these?
> 
> Then onto my second question. The gain on the sub amp is currently set to minimum level. At very low system volume, there is a lot of base, enough, almost a bit too much. As I raise the overall system volume, the sub gets drowned out by the factory speakers to the point where all low bass seems to disappear. Where should the gain level of the sub amp sit during calibration and afterwards? The sweep from the sub is quite low in comparison to the factory speakers. maybe the sub amp is underpowered? Here are 2 pictures of my sub kit:


The only thing jumping out at me on your settings is the 6dB/oct slope between midranges and woofers. I would change that to 24dB/oct.

The sub not keeping up with increasing volume is strange but potentially it could be a result of the BMW head unit reducing bass output at higher volumes. I have not heard of BMW HU's doing that, but perhaps the new models are different, who knows. If that's the case I'm not sure there is much you can do at all with your current configuration besides manually increasing the Bass and/or Sub levels on the MS-8. It does take some fiddling around though to get the sub better integrated so who knows you may have better luck with some different settings (gain, crossover point & slope, and sub polarity).

Just so you know, the OEM speakers in the base system are garbage so don't get your hopes up too high. If your budget is limited I'd recommend at least some coaxials in the doors, that would help a lot. Also installing a coax in the center will be a good investment!


----------



## vitchie

Thanks guys. Recalibrated with sub amp set to 30% gain position and wow! What a difference. System seriously thumps now. Andy, how is the kit different to any aftermarket and outboard amp? Im still looking for proper xover points for ideal setup, but good so far. Xovers all on 24db and the one at 60hz and the other at 140hz. Should i change those as they were just a guess.


----------



## abirvalg

*Re: 05' Acura TL and MS-8*



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> LCDs HATE cold weather. Sorry guys, no fix for a sluggish start-up when it's super cold.


i'm sorry Andy, i just want to make sure we are talking about the same thing ...

isn't the unit capable of working with LCD detached?

cause my main unit is not "sluggish" when it's cold it's outright DEAD with the exception of the blue light

do you guys have an LCD protective logic built in?
would unplugging the LCD in cold weather make the main unit work?


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> The only thing jumping out at me on your settings is the 6dB/oct slope between midranges and woofers. I would change that to 24dB/oct.
> 
> The sub not keeping up with increasing volume is strange but potentially it could be a result of the BMW head unit reducing bass output at higher volumes. I have not heard of BMW HU's doing that, but perhaps the new models are different, who knows. If that's the case I'm not sure there is much you can do at all with your current configuration besides manually increasing the Bass and/or Sub levels on the MS-8. It does take some fiddling around though to get the sub better integrated so who knows you may have better luck with some different settings (gain, crossover point & slope, and sub polarity).
> 
> Just so you know, the OEM speakers in the base system are garbage so don't get your hopes up too high. If your budget is limited I'd recommend at least some coaxials in the doors, that would help a lot. Also installing a coax in the center will be a good investment!


 
I'd bet the sub not keeping up is a limiter in the sub amp.


----------



## vitchie

Sub is good now after i had it's level up during calibration. Please help with xover points. 


Sent from my  iPhone


----------



## stylngle2003

I have heard people say rear fill should be something like 400hz-4k


----------



## rcurley55

So I'm getting a little better tunes at this point. I have the dreaded midbass hole in my BMW (8" midbasses under the seats running from 70-200 Hz). I have set the amplifier crossover to LP the midbasses at about 260 Hz. After calibration, I used an RTA app on my smartphone to set the gains using pink noise from the test menu on the MS-8. With the gains raised and some EQ tweaks, things are sounding much better.

The one thing I can't figure out is how to get a really sharp center. I got it with one of my earlier tunes - like scary sharp - sounded like all material was coming out of just the center channel. Since then, with every tune the center seems to be slightly smeared one way or the other. I tried experimenting with looking at different locations on the side mirrors, but wanted to know if there were any tricks to get the center to be a little tighter.


----------



## 98koukile

Just hooked everything up, just getting a please wait on the screen forever


----------



## btolenti

Make sure the display cable is pushed in all the way. You should feel/hear and audible click.


----------



## 98koukile

It felt on there and I unplugged it and redid it and now it works, thanks for the suggestion. I couldn't find a troubleshooting section in the manual


----------



## Nextelabuse

Hello Andy,

Long MS-8 User here looking for some advice...

I have an issue with the device, as a week ago the MS-8 just stopped showing anything on the screen, no sound coming from it and it won't turn off at any time. I did not move anything on the wiring, at all. So I'm wondering how to make it come back to life.

I tried using the hard reset button and nothing, unplugging the AC power and pushing the reset button and nothing, removed the 25Amp Fuse for a whole day and the minute I plug it back on, it just kept ON no matter if the car was without the key (remote off).. So I took the MS-8 out and replaced it with another amp to check if the remote cable was sending wrong info, and the amp, using the exact same connections as the MS-8 worked as supposed to.

So now I want to check if "updating the firmware" will make it reboot and start over, but the files I have found on JBL websites (us, europe, etc) and both files are corrupt - (USBXpress and MS8Pro6bands)

Any help is much appreciated


----------



## Beckerson1

This may have been covered in this massive thread but I don't have the time or patience to read through 353 pages of comments. 

I know the MS8 is capable of a center channel but is it capable of running two seperate speakers for a center channel. 

Like one center channel speaker from 60-300hz and another from 300hz on up using two of the 8 outputs on the MS8.

I mean I could test it out now but don't want to reset my crossover points or re-tune. 

If it's not. No problem as I will utilize my amps crossovers (just won't have TA control on my one speaker 60-300hz) unless I go minidsp


----------



## Grizz Archer

Beckerson1 said:


> This may have been covered in this massive thread but I don't have the time or patience to read through 353 pages of comments.
> 
> I know the MS8 is capable of a center channel but is it capable of running two seperate speakers for a center channel.
> 
> Like one center channel speaker from 60-300hz and another from 300hz on up using two of the 8 outputs on the MS8.
> 
> I mean I could test it out now but don't want to reset my crossover points or re-tune.
> 
> If it's not. No problem as I will utilize my amps crossovers (just won't have TA control on my one speaker 60-300hz) unless I go minidsp


No, it is not and you do not need to. When the speakers are that close together, you do not need separate time alignment. Plus, the wavelengths are so short at the higher frequencies that it really does not matter anyway. I got our of this thread awhile ago because it got boring and monotonous. But that was a good question that I had once I first hear about it. Then I thought about it and realized, it simply would not make a difference even if it did...


----------



## subwoofery

Beckerson1 said:


> This may have been covered in this massive thread but I don't have the time or patience to read through 353 pages of comments.
> 
> I know the MS8 is capable of a center channel but is it capable of running two seperate speakers for a center channel.
> 
> Like one center channel speaker from 60-300hz and another from 300hz on up using two of the 8 outputs on the MS8.
> 
> I mean I could test it out now but don't want to reset my crossover points or re-tune.
> 
> If it's not. No problem as I will utilize my amps crossovers (just won't have TA control on my one speaker 60-300hz) unless I go minidsp





Grizz Archer said:


> No, it is not and you do not need to. When the speakers are that close together, you do not need separate time alignment. Plus, the wavelengths are so short at the higher frequencies that it really does not matter anyway. I got our of this thread awhile ago because it got boring and monotonous. But that was a good question that I had once I first hear about it. Then I thought about it and realized, it simply would not make a difference even if it did...


Actually, you can  

The center channel on the MS-8 can be configured as either 1-way (coax or comp with passive) or as a 2-way (active system). 
For a 2-way center channel, you'll use up 2 outputs on the MS-8 

Kelvin


----------



## Grizz Archer

subwoofery said:


> Actually, you can
> 
> The center channel on the MS-8 can be configured as either 1-way (coax or comp with passive) or as a 2-way (active system).
> For a 2-way center channel, you'll use up 2 outputs on the MS-8
> 
> Kelvin


I stand corrected. But now I remember that option on my screen. Just seemed like a moot point. Time alignment is not necessary at those frequencies and if do use 2 channels for center, 4 channels for 2-way components, that only leaves 2 channels left, not enough for ambiance...

Anyway, my bad. Thanx for correcting me. My MS8 is in a box for now waiting for a new build this spring...


----------



## subwoofery

Grizz Archer said:


> I stand corrected. But now I remember that option on my screen. Just seemed like a moot point. Time alignment is not necessary at those frequencies and if do use 2 channels for center, 4 channels for 2-way components, that only leaves 2 channels left, not enough for ambiance...
> 
> Anyway, my bad. Thanx for correcting me. My MS8 is in a box for now waiting for a new build this spring...


No biggy... Someone corrected me also when I told a poster that it wasn't possible :blush: 

Kelvin


----------



## Grizz Archer

subwoofery said:


> No biggy... Someone corrected me also when I told a poster that it wasn't possible :blush:
> 
> Kelvin


LOL So do you agree that it is a moot point and waste of channels?


----------



## subwoofery

Grizz Archer said:


> LOL So do you agree that it is a moot point and waste of channels?


It is if you only have 1 x MS-8 

With 2, you'll be able to have a 3-way front active, 2-way center active (1st MS-8) + 2 sides, 2 rears, 2 subs (or 4 since you have 2 spare output) 

Am myself planning a system like that, 1 x MS-8 with the help of a PPI DCX-730 (passive between MID & TW) 

Kelvin


----------



## Grizz Archer

subwoofery said:


> It is if you only have 1 x MS-8
> 
> With 2, you'll be able to have a 3-way front active, 2-way center active (1st MS-8) + 2 sides, 2 rears, 2 subs (or 4 since you have 2 spare output)
> 
> Am myself planning a system like that, 1 x MS-8 with the help of a PPI DCX-730 (passive between MID & TW)
> 
> Kelvin


I do not even know how to process that answer! lol Do you know of anybody that has done this? Seems a bit insane...


----------



## subwoofery

Grizz Archer said:


> I do not even know how to process that answer! lol Do you know of anybody that has done this? Seems a bit insane...


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1104606-post21.html 
Don't think anyone tried it yet...

Kelvin


----------



## n_olympios

Can the MS-8's be daisychained? I didn't know that!


----------



## Grizz Archer

n_olympios said:


> Can the MS-8's be daisychained? I didn't know that!


Any signal processor can be daisychained. The next processor only knows what it receives, not where it cam from so you can run infinite if you choose...


----------



## n_olympios

Well obviously, only that way they can never be completely synchronised. I'm sure there will be some ping delay here and there, thus making it less consistent and harder to tune. When I say daisychained, I mean like the second gen F#1 Status processors by Alpine, which communicate via their bus to make sure everything is synchronised. 

Unless the processors are analog, pure joy.


----------



## kaigoss69

I recently installed an AE SBP-15 IB through the ski-pass, and I absolutely love the way it sounds. However, the location of the sub is more prominent now compared to when I had a sub in the trunk. I've done a lot of reading on the subject and I believe I may be able to "move the sub forward" through the use of TA. So what I need to do is delay the signal to all speakers except the sub. I have thought about how I can do this and came up with an idea which builds on a mod I have introduced in the past. This time however, the signal to the sub is split-off before the MS-8, and bypasses the processor completely. The signal going to the MS-8 can then be delayed, while the signal to the sub is real-time. I was thinking about using a mini-DSP to do this, but would welcome ideas and suggestions on a better unit that can do what I want to do without breaking the bank.

Here's a basic system layout to illustrate:


----------



## 14642

Kai,
that shouldn't be necessary. Try changing the crossover point and reversing the phase of the sub. Remove your "mod" and identify the sub as sub in MS-8's menu. I think that will take care of this, now that the sub isn't in a tiny box only in te trunk. Your diagram is right, except for one thing--There's a significant delay through MS-8 for all of the processing to happen, so if you split the sub before, you need to delay it too.


----------



## 14642

n_olympios said:


> Well obviously, only that way they can never be completely synchronised. I'm sure there will be some ping delay here and there, thus making it less consistent and harder to tune. When I say daisychained, I mean like the second gen F#1 Status processors by Alpine, which communicate via their bus to make sure everything is synchronised.
> 
> Unless the processors are analog, pure joy.


Sorry guys, MS-8 can't be daisey chained. If you need more channels, use MS-8 for 5.1 or 7.1 and then use additional processors for crossovers and time alignment. MiniDSP's after MS-8 would work fine for this.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Kai,
> that shouldn't be necessary. Try changing the crossover point and reversing the phase of the sub. Remove your "mod" and identify the sub as sub in MS-8's menu. I think that will take care of this, now that the sub isn't in a tiny box only in te trunk. Your diagram is right, except for one thing--There's a significant delay through MS-8 for all of the processing to happen, so if you split the sub before, you need to delay it too.


OK thanks Andy, I'll try that. I have never gotten very good results though with the sub on its own channel. The corner enclosure I was using before actually was not peaky at all, since the sub was in its optimal enclosure volume, so that wasn't the problem I think (I also measured the in-car response and there were no huge peaks to speak of). There are some guys here who have reviewed the AE sub with and without MS-8, and they concluded that the MS-8 somehow "robbed" the bass. 

I have tried 12 and 24dB slopes, and 12 sounds better, but you can still very easily locate the sub with almost all music.


----------



## Beckerson1

subwoofery said:


> Actually, you can
> 
> The center channel on the MS-8 can be configured as either 1-way (coax or comp with passive) or as a 2-way (active system).
> For a 2-way center channel, you'll use up 2 outputs on the MS-8
> 
> Kelvin


Thank you for the response. I didn't want to have to mess with my tune (granted it takes 2 min and some listening to to adjust) to figure if it has a 2 way option. 

I should explain what I will be doing (I do have a build log for this setup here to document the progress of the center channel build).

First off I am only utilizing 5 outputs off the MS8 right now (2 way front+sub). I have no desire to run side/rear channels. I'm more of a hybrid SPL/SQ listener and that is visible in my build (also on here). Even with using 2 more channels for the center channel I will still have 1 open channel on the MS8. For MY goals (not running rears, or sides.) this 2 way center channel option is NOT a waste of channels or MOOT point. 

Anyway I am purchasing this:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-classifieds/132716-f-s-8th-gen-civ-custom-console-mounted-mid-bass.html 

From Papasin who bought it off IBCivic and doesn't have a need for it now.

And have purchased a JXR6 HD (also known as the E60 Mid Tweeter).

The plan right now is to cross the Morel from 60-300hz and will be located in the pocket above the shifter. 

The Jorden will be located where my HU is right now and the HU will be moved to the lower pocket of my dash kit. It will be crossed from 300hz+

The hope is to bring a solid center image and a solid mid bass presence to compliment my doors. I'm sure it has been done in some fashion at some point in time by a member here but in my area/region I have yet to see anyone try what I will be doing.

C-channel will have a dedicated 4 channel amp PPI900.4 (ya more then enough for 2 way) located under my passenger seat (or center counsel depends on space)


Once again I want to thank you for your response and to say that I'm not mad by the comment that what I am doing is a waste. But without knowing my intentions or system layout it makes me want to prove its not a complete waste.

Keep an eye out for the construction of the C-channel setup.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/144534-2-stage-center-channel-build-setup.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/132313-06-si-daily-sq-build-56k-no-way.html


----------



## britdavis

*2.8V input max on 5V HU*

Hello,

Please forgive me for not reading completely through the awesome MS-8 thread totally (what a great collection of info and experiences!), but with what I've read, I am still not sure what the final answer is.

I am running a JVC R900BT HU which per spec lists 5V preamp outs. I just purchased the MS-8 and discovered the 2.8V input max, and I intend to use the HU for volume control, and I'm removing my factory amp, so I can't use speaker-level inputs.

Questions:
1. Does this mean that I cannot use this HU, for certatain?
2. If I can use it, perhaps I have to make sure I don't hit >2.8V?
3. Any thoughts on this?

TIA,
Brit


----------



## Nathan_h

*watch ur volume;*



britdavis said:


> Hello,
> 
> Please forgive me for not reading completely through the awesome MS-8 thread totally (what a great collection of info and experiences!), but with what I've read, I am still not sure what the final answer is.
> 
> I am running a JVC R900BT HU which per spec lists 5V preamp outs. I just purchased the MS-8 and discovered the 2.8V input max, and I intend to use the HU for volume control, and I'm removing my factory amp, so I can't use speaker-level inputs.
> 
> Questions:
> 1. Does this mean that I cannot use this HU, for certatain?
> 2. If I can use it, perhaps I have to make sure I don't hit >2.8V?
> 3. Any thoughts on this?
> 
> TIA,
> Brit



I think I had a similar situation. My factory head unit could overdrive my MS-8, if I turned the factory volume up too high. So.... I just didn't turn it up that high 

(Of course, now my MS-8 is for sale, since I'm experimenting with other stuff. Hopefully I sell it soon!)

By the way, some aftermarket head units have a setting to limit their output. I don't know whether yours does, but it would be worth researching.


----------



## britdavis

*Re: watch ur volume;*



Nathan_h said:


> I think I had a similar situation. My factory head unit could overdrive my MS-8, if I turned the factory volume up too high. So.... I just didn't turn it up that high
> 
> (Of course, now my MS-8 is for sale, since I'm experimenting with other stuff. Hopefully I sell it soon!)
> 
> By the way, some aftermarket head units have a setting to limit their output. I don't know whether yours does, but it would be worth researching.


Thanks, Nathan.

Sounds like I can do it, but I'll just have to be careful.
Interestingly, my volume "goes" from 0-50, so I'm just gonna ballpark that my volume will be maxed when I get to 28.  I know that's not how it works -- I may do some basic testing with my RMS DMM to see when I get to 2.8V with different music, and figure that's my max.

My HU does have a limit setting, but it states that it it is for the internal amp output and not for the preamp outs. Doh!


----------



## Nathan_h

*Re: watch ur volume;*



britdavis said:


> Thanks, Nathan.
> 
> Sounds like I can do it, but I'll just have to be careful.
> Interestingly, my volume "goes" from 0-50, so I'm just gonna ballpark that my volume will be maxed when I get to 28.  I know that's not how it works -- I may do some basic testing with my RMS DMM to see when I get to 2.8V with different music, and figure that's my max.
> 
> My HU does have a limit setting, but it states that it it is for the internal amp output and not for the preamp outs. Doh!


Yeah, using a voltmeter, you'll be able to find out what numeric volume level is the top safe level to use. Not fool proof (someone might exceed the number by accident) but workable.

Are you using an amp after the MS-8. Before I decided to sell mine, that is what I did. If the amp is pretty powerful, and you are not crazy about volume, it really gets too loud anyway, long before you get to the volume marking on the head unit that exceeds what you should feed the MS-8.

--

I don't know that JVC head unit, but it sounds like there is no speaker level output on it? If there was, you could make use of that, and the limiter function, to keep the volume you feed the MS-8 low enough, perhaps. But I am prejudice, too, and prefer line level out when feeding something like the MS-8, though some experts say it doesn't really matter.


----------



## Rye595

Hi there - my turn to ask the pro 

I've got a 2007 Porsche 911 - I've ripped out the factory audio and put in a Kenwood DNX series nav HU, Audison 3-way components with passive x-overs in factory locations upfront being driven by a Hertz 5-channel amp. Factory locations are midbass in the bottom of the door, mid in the top of the door, tweeter in the corners of the dash, firing up at the windshield.

Also a custom sub box on the back shelf under the rear window where the bose sub would go (for those who know this car's layout) and rear coax.

The system has always been a bit too bright, even with the crossovers set to max tweeter attenuation. I know the tweeter location is a problem.

My goal is to solve this with an MS8 to warmup the sound. My question is, how should I do it?

Option 1: 
MS8 --> Hertz amp for the midbass upfront
MS8 --> Hertz amp then passive crossovers for mid/tweets
MS8 --> Hertz amp for sub
MS8 --> Powers the rear speakers
MS8 --> Powers a center channel (I disconnected the center with my current setup)

Option 2:
MS8 --> Hertz amp for the midbass upfront
MS8 --> Hertz amp for the mids only
MS8 --> Hertz amp for sub
MS8 --> Powers the tweeters
No rear speakers
MS8 --> Powers a center channel (I disconnected the center with my current setup)

I'm wondering if option 2 gives the MS8 a better chance at overcoming the tweeter placement since it's controlling tweets and mids separately? I've also seen you recommend something closer to Option 1, but cover the tweets during the first set of sweeps.

It's an extremely small cabin, lots of weird reflections, and quite a lot of overall road/engine noise. I didn't buy the car to sit around and listen to music, but the stock audio was appalling! Doesn't have to be perfect... I don't want to move tweeters, etc. because so far, nobody would know there's equipment in the car. Everything fits underneath existing panels. Sub box comes out in 5 mins for track days.

Looking forward to the input.


----------



## CDT FAN

I looked for the answer to this question, but I wasn't lucky. Perhaps I used the wrong search criteria.

With the MS-8, you can optimize the sound for each seat by taking measurements for them. I don't see how you can optimize for one seat w/o hurting another? Does the driver's position sound degrade if you optimze the other positions?


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

CDT FAN said:


> I looked for the answer to this question, but I wasn't lucky. Perhaps I used the wrong search criteria.
> 
> With the MS-8, you can optimize the sound for each seat by taking measurements for them. I don't see how you can optimize for one seat w/o hurting another? Does the driver's position sound degrade if you optimze the other positions?


No. The MS-8 takes readings from each seat position when you take the acoustic measurements, then it will apply the settings based on what you want for your listening experience. (Changeable between Driver, Passenger, Front, Rear, or All.)

If you have it set for 'passenger' you will notice that it sounds funky from the drivers seat. Same goes for sitting in the passenger seat and having it set for 'driver.' But if it's set to the correct position, then it's going to sound good.

All of this and more can be found in the JBL MS-8 manual available here. (Your question is answered on page 38: *Seat*.)


----------



## CDT FAN

Thanks for the help. I read that in the manual. It just doesn't seem logical to me that if it adjusts the TA and FR for one position, then it would make the previous positions out of adjustment.


----------



## chevbowtie22

So MS-8 gurus I have a question. I'm going to running a MS-8 in my 97 Corvette but I'm trying to decide if I should run rear speakers in the factory rear position or should I put them in very back on the back wall under the hatch. They would be facing forward towards the passengers. If I mount them in the factory rear locations they will only be behind my head by 5" at most with the height being nearly equal to my ears.

I guess the question is it best to run the rear speakers as far back as you can or does it not matter?


----------



## Grizz Archer

chevbowtie22 said:


> So MS-8 gurus I have a question. I'm going to running a MS-8 in my 97 Corvette but I'm trying to decide if I should run rear speakers in the factory rear position or should I put them in very back on the back wall under the hatch. They would be facing forward towards the passengers. If I mount them in the factory rear locations they will only be behind my head by 5" at most with the height being nearly equal to my ears.
> 
> I guess the question is it best to run the rear speakers as far back as you can or does it not matter?


You'll get different response, but imho, having the speaker right in your ear is ****ty. Now amount of delay would fix that. I would definitely move them back...


----------



## 14642

Beckerson1 said:


> Thank you for the response. I didn't want to have to mess with my tune (granted it takes 2 min and some listening to to adjust) to figure if it has a 2 way option.
> 
> I should explain what I will be doing (I do have a build log for this setup here to document the progress of the center channel build).
> 
> First off I am only utilizing 5 outputs off the MS8 right now (2 way front+sub). I have no desire to run side/rear channels. I'm more of a hybrid SPL/SQ listener and that is visible in my build (also on here). Even with using 2 more channels for the center channel I will still have 1 open channel on the MS8. For MY goals (not running rears, or sides.) this 2 way center channel option is NOT a waste of channels or MOOT point.
> 
> Anyway I am purchasing this:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-gen-civ-custom-console-mounted-mid-bass.html
> 
> From Papasin who bought it off IBCivic and doesn't have a need for it now.
> 
> And have purchased a JXR6 HD (also known as the E60 Mid Tweeter).
> 
> The plan right now is to cross the Morel from 60-300hz and will be located in the pocket above the shifter.
> 
> The Jorden will be located where my HU is right now and the HU will be moved to the lower pocket of my dash kit. It will be crossed from 300hz+
> 
> The hope is to bring a solid center image and a solid mid bass presence to compliment my doors. I'm sure it has been done in some fashion at some point in time by a member here but in my area/region I have yet to see anyone try what I will be doing.
> 
> C-channel will have a dedicated 4 channel amp PPI900.4 (ya more then enough for 2 way) located under my passenger seat (or center counsel depends on space)
> 
> 
> Once again I want to thank you for your response and to say that I'm not mad by the comment that what I am doing is a waste. But without knowing my intentions or system layout it makes me want to prove its not a complete waste.
> 
> Keep an eye out for the construction of the C-channel setup.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...44534-2-stage-center-channel-build-setup.html
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...y/132313-06-si-daily-sq-build-56k-no-way.html


 
I'm sure it'll work fine, but the center channel is only active when Logic7 is on and without rear speakers, you'll lose the ambient informaton in the music. It'll be steered to the sides, which you won't have. I'd do a passive on the center channel and add a couple of speakers in the rear.


----------



## 14642

*Re: 2.8V input max on 5V HU*



britdavis said:


> Hello,
> 
> Please forgive me for not reading completely through the awesome MS-8 thread totally (what a great collection of info and experiences!), but with what I've read, I am still not sure what the final answer is.
> 
> I am running a JVC R900BT HU which per spec lists 5V preamp outs. I just purchased the MS-8 and discovered the 2.8V input max, and I intend to use the HU for volume control, and I'm removing my factory amp, so I can't use speaker-level inputs.
> 
> Questions:
> 1. Does this mean that I cannot use this HU, for certatain?
> 2. If I can use it, perhaps I have to make sure I don't hit >2.8V?
> 3. Any thoughts on this?
> 
> TIA,
> Brit


Just hook it up using the teo front outputs to MS-8 inputs 1 and 2. The 2.8V is RMS. Many 4V head units measure 4V peak, which is 2.8V RMS. Who knows what your JVC does, but it doesn't matter. It'll be fine.


----------



## 14642

*Re: watch ur volume;*



Nathan_h said:


> I think I had a similar situation. My factory head unit could overdrive my MS-8, if I turned the factory volume up too high. So.... I just didn't turn it up that high
> 
> (Of course, now my MS-8 is for sale, since I'm experimenting with other stuff. Hopefully I sell it soon!)
> 
> By the way, some aftermarket head units have a setting to limit their output. I don't know whether yours does, but it would be worth researching.


No, your factory head unit probably clips at the top of the volume control. MS-8's speaker level inputs will take full rail voltage from any head unit's IC amplification. 

That is probably the case unless you were using the factory amp in a Bentley Continental.


----------



## 14642

*Re: watch ur volume;*



britdavis said:


> Thanks, Nathan.
> 
> Sounds like I can do it, but I'll just have to be careful.
> Interestingly, my volume "goes" from 0-50, so I'm just gonna ballpark that my volume will be maxed when I get to 28.  I know that's not how it works -- I may do some basic testing with my RMS DMM to see when I get to 2.8V with different music, and figure that's my max.
> 
> My HU does have a limit setting, but it states that it it is for the internal amp output and not for the preamp outs. Doh!


 
No, there's no need to do this. Just hook it up. Once the tuning is done, turn MS-8's volume control down to something like -30 so you can be sure MS-8 isn't runing out of power. Turn the head unit up until you hear distortion. When you do, that's the max. My guess is that you'll get really close to the top. Plus, your head unit will only reach max output when the music on the disc is at 0dB (as loud as can be recorded).

This is no big deal. Just plug in and enjoy.


----------



## 14642

CDT FAN said:


> Thanks for the help. I read that in the manual. It just doesn't seem logical to me that if it adjusts the TA and FR for one position, then it would make the previous positions out of adjustment.


If you calibrate for the two front seats, you'll have three seating position options in the menu. Driver will be optimized for the driver's seat. Passenger for the passenger seat and Front will be a compromise for both seats. If you have a center channel, the signal steering to the center will make for good imaging in both seats in "Front". If you have no center, then driver and passenger optimization will be good, but not great for the opposite seat. Front will be a frequency response compromise, but not great imaging (unless the speakers are in the kick panels).


----------



## CDT FAN

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If you calibrate for the two front seats, you'll have three seating position options in the menu. Driver will be optimized for the driver's seat. Passenger for the passenger seat and Front will be a compromise for both seats. If you have a center channel, the signal steering to the center will make for good imaging in both seats in "Front". If you have no center, then driver and passenger optimization will be good, but not great for the opposite seat. Front will be a frequency response compromise, but not great imaging (unless the speakers are in the kick panels).


Thank you very much for the response. I plan on using a HAT L4 in the front center of the dash, running from 250hz up. Woill that be sufficient for the center speaker?


----------



## britdavis

*Re: watch ur volume;*



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Just hook it up using the teo front outputs to MS-8 inputs 1 and 2. The 2.8V is RMS. Many 4V head units measure 4V peak, which is 2.8V RMS. Who knows what your JVC does, but it doesn't matter. It'll be fine.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, there's no need to do this. Just hook it up. Once the tuning is done, turn MS-8's volume control down to something like -30 so you can be sure MS-8 isn't runing out of power. Turn the head unit up until you hear distortion. When you do, that's the max. My guess is that you'll get really close to the top. Plus, your head unit will only reach max output when the music on the disc is at 0dB (as loud as can be recorded).
> 
> This is no big deal. Just plug in and enjoy.


Wow, Andy, thank you so much. You've made crystal clear that which was muddy just a day ago. I really appreciate your help and always enjoy your posts. Thanks again.


----------



## britdavis

*MS-8 with '04 JBL Synthesis*

Hello again, I'm back for more. 

I need a couple of recommendations on MS-8 channel assignment with my factory speaker setup:

*Factory Setup (front to back)*
Dash: 2" Tweet
Front L: 2" tweet and 6x9 woofer in parallel
Front R: 2" tweet and 6x9 woofer in parallel
Rear L: 6.75 2-way I believe
Rear R: 6.75 2-way I believe
Back L+R: 2" tweet (using single channel) <--- what is best to do with these?
Sub: 8" Dual Voice coil (takes two outs from my stock JBL amp) <--- what is best to do with these?


*This almost maps to my MS-8, but I'm not sure how to deal with the DVC sub*.
Channel 1,2: Front
Channel 3,4: Rear
Channel 5,6: Back
Channel 7: Center
Channel 8: Sub 

*First Question: *Without changing any speakers or adding another amp, how should I deal with the sub wanting two channels? Any other thoughts on this overall setup?

*Second Question:*If, since my factory wiring has the back L+R speakers wired in parallel (as in mono), I wanted to keep this setup (let's just say IF), could I use my MS-8 Channels 5,6 in a bridged mono configuration? I know I'd lose back stereo separation, I'm just wondering if it's possible. Or could I just run it off Channel 5, freeing Channel 6, so that I could use it to solve the DVC sub question above?

Thanks again,
Brit


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## rcurley55

I'm posting this back up to see if anyone has an idea: The one thing I can't figure out is how to get a really focused center. I got it with one of my earlier tunes, it sounded everything that should be center was generated by just the center channel. Since then, with every tune the center seems to be smeared or almost as if I have three center images (one in the middle, one 6 inches to the left of center and one 6 inches to the right of center). I tried experimenting with looking at different locations on the side mirrors, but wanted to know if there were any tricks to get the center to be more focused.


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## Beckerson1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm sure it'll work fine, but the center channel is only active when Logic7 is on and without rear speakers, you'll lose the ambient informaton in the music. It'll be steered to the sides, which you won't have. I'd do a passive on the center channel and add a couple of speakers in the rear.


What do you suggest for a passive crossover? If I did anything with the rears I will put the stock speakers back in.


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## 14642

Because if you do a 2-way front, a 2-way center and a sub, you'll only have one channel left. You have to have 2 channels for sides.


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## 14642

rcurley55 said:


> I'm posting this back up to see if anyone has an idea: The one thing I can't figure out is how to get a really focused center. I got it with one of my earlier tunes, it sounded everything that should be center was generated by just the center channel. Since then, with every tune the center seems to be smeared or almost as if I have three center images (one in the middle, one 6 inches to the left of center and one 6 inches to the right of center). I tried experimenting with looking at different locations on the side mirrors, but wanted to know if there were any tricks to get the center to be more focused.


Sometimes if the center channel is pointing up at the windshield and the other speakers are low in the doors or in the kick panels, reversing the polarity of the center helps. This sounds like what's going on in your car (no matter where the left and right speakers are). If you've confirmed that your left and right midrange speakers are connected in the correct polarity, try switching the center and recalibrating.


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## CDT FAN

Andy, The more I read about the MS8, there more questions I have.

I started re-reading this thread from 2006 JBL's MS-8. What does it do? - CARSOUND.COM Forum
and I saw where you were mentioning the advanced mode for setting the XO points independently for each speaker. I looked through the owners manual and I can't find a reference to advanced mode. Did that not make it into the production machine?


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## Beckerson1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Because if you do a 2-way front, a 2-way center and a sub, you'll only have one channel left. You have to have 2 channels for sides.


LOL I know I would need 2 channels for sides (have a coupe and no rear location for side speakers anyway). I asked "What you would suggest for a passive crossover". Think you miss-read and thought I said Why.


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## chevbowtie22

chevbowtie22 said:


> So MS-8 gurus I have a question. I'm going to running a MS-8 in my 97 Corvette but I'm trying to decide if I should run rear speakers in the factory rear position or should I put them in very back on the back wall under the hatch. They would be facing forward towards the passengers. If I mount them in the factory rear locations they will only be behind my head by 5" at most with the height being nearly equal to my ears.
> 
> I guess the question is it best to run the rear speakers as far back as you can or does it not matter?


Any thoughts on this Andy? Also should there be a huge concern about what should go into the rear speaker choice? As long as they are a decent set of coaxials I should be fine right?


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## Rye595

Rye595 said:


> Hi there - my turn to ask the pro
> 
> I've got a 2007 Porsche 911 - I've ripped out the factory audio and put in a Kenwood DNX series nav HU, Audison 3-way components with passive x-overs in factory locations upfront being driven by a Hertz 5-channel amp. Factory locations are midbass in the bottom of the door, mid in the top of the door, tweeter in the corners of the dash, firing up at the windshield.
> 
> Also a custom sub box on the back shelf under the rear window where the bose sub would go (for those who know this car's layout) and rear coax.
> 
> The system has always been a bit too bright, even with the crossovers set to max tweeter attenuation. I know the tweeter location is a problem.
> 
> My goal is to solve this with an MS8 to warmup the sound. My question is, how should I do it?
> 
> Option 1:
> MS8 --> Hertz amp for the midbass upfront
> MS8 --> Hertz amp then passive crossovers for mid/tweets
> MS8 --> Hertz amp for sub
> MS8 --> Powers the rear speakers
> MS8 --> Powers a center channel (I disconnected the center with my current setup)
> 
> Option 2:
> MS8 --> Hertz amp for the midbass upfront
> MS8 --> Hertz amp for the mids only
> MS8 --> Hertz amp for sub
> MS8 --> Powers the tweeters
> No rear speakers
> MS8 --> Powers a center channel (I disconnected the center with my current setup)
> 
> I'm wondering if option 2 gives the MS8 a better chance at overcoming the tweeter placement since it's controlling tweets and mids separately? I've also seen you recommend something closer to Option 1, but cover the tweets during the first set of sweeps.
> 
> It's an extremely small cabin, lots of weird reflections, and quite a lot of overall road/engine noise. I didn't buy the car to sit around and listen to music, but the stock audio was appalling! Doesn't have to be perfect... I don't want to move tweeters, etc. because so far, nobody would know there's equipment in the car. Everything fits underneath existing panels. Sub box comes out in 5 mins for track days.
> 
> Looking forward to the input.


Just to summarize, in hopes of some feedback from the group:

What I'm asking is, in a small cabin with harsh windshield reflections, would I be better off 3-way active plus center and sub or 2-way with passive between mid-tweets plus center, rears, sub? I have tweeters firing up at the windshield in stock locations, and don't want to move them in order to keep stock appearance.

Thanks!


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## rcurley55

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sometimes if the center channel is pointing up at the windshield and the other speakers are low in the doors or in the kick panels, reversing the polarity of the center helps. This sounds like what's going on in your car (no matter where the left and right speakers are). If you've confirmed that your left and right midrange speakers are connected in the correct polarity, try switching the center and recalibrating.


Thanks, Andy. I'll give it a shot.


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## 14642

CDT FAN said:


> Andy, The more I read about the MS8, there more questions I have.
> 
> I started re-reading this thread from 2006 JBL's MS-8. What does it do? - CARSOUND.COM Forum
> and I saw where you were mentioning the advanced mode for setting the XO points independently for each speaker. I looked through the owners manual and I can't find a reference to advanced mode. Did that not make it into the production machine?


Nope. We killed that.


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## 14642

Beckerson1 said:


> LOL I know I would need 2 channels for sides (have a coupe and no rear location for side speakers anyway). I asked "What you would suggest for a passive crossover". Think you miss-read and thought I said Why.


Oops. Sorry about that. I'm not familiar with your tweeter, but the manufacturer ought to have a recommendation.


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## 14642

chevbowtie22 said:


> Any thoughts on this Andy? Also should there be a huge concern about what should go into the rear speaker choice? As long as they are a decent set of coaxials I should be fine right?


Yeah, something decent is sufficient. Don't go overboard. Spend a hundred bucks or less. Small speakers are fine. 3.5" 2-way is enough. Those ought to be 80 bucks or less.


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## Grizz Archer

Rye595 said:


> Just to summarize, in hopes of some feedback from the group:
> 
> What I'm asking is, in a small cabin with harsh windshield reflections, would I be better off 3-way active plus center and sub or 2-way with passive between mid-tweets plus center, rears, sub? I have tweeters firing up at the windshield in stock locations, and don't want to move them in order to keep stock appearance.
> 
> Thanks!


I used be be against rears for a long time. The MS8 schooled me on why ambiance is so important. You can get a great stage without rear drivers, but I want to be in a "room". Not just a stage with a void space behind me...


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## Beckerson1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Oops. Sorry about that. I'm not familiar with your tweeter, but the manufacturer ought to have a recommendation.


Lol its fine. I figured that's what went down.

It has quite the range (1L enclosed gives it a resonate freq of 80hz, rated from 100 to 30K based on its suspensions design)



Andy is there an issue running a full range (assuming I can get the MS8 to do it for the center channel) and use a y adapter to gain the inputs at the amp to allow me to utilize its on-board crossover?


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## thehatedguy

I used the y-adapter thing with onboard XOs for my center and it worked great.


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## CDT FAN

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Nope. We killed that.


Thank you for the response. It will save me from spending more time trying to figure it out.


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## taibanl

CDT FAN said:


> Andy, The more I read about the MS8, there more questions I have.
> 
> I started re-reading this thread from 2006 JBL's MS-8. What does it do? - CARSOUND.COM Forum
> and I saw where you were mentioning the advanced mode for setting the XO points independently for each speaker. I looked through the owners manual and I can't find a reference to advanced mode. Did that not make it into the production machine?


Actually, its more like they killed "easy" mode. The advanced mode describes how it works currently.


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## CDT FAN

taibanl said:


> Actually, its more like they killed "easy" mode. The advanced mode describes how it works currently.


Originally, in the advanced mode, you could set the xo point of each driver individually, independent of other drivers. If I understand the manual correctly, with the production version, you choose one xo point between a set of drivers such as the mid and tweeter at the same time.


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## chevbowtie22

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yeah, something decent is sufficient. Don't go overboard. Spend a hundred bucks or less. Small speakers are fine. 3.5" 2-way is enough. Those ought to be 80 bucks or less.


Thanks Andy. I appreciate the help.


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## 14642

CDT FAN said:


> Originally, in the advanced mode, you could set the xo point of each driver individually, independent of other drivers. If I understand the manual correctly, with the production version, you choose one xo point between a set of drivers such as the mid and tweeter at the same time.


Yes, this is how it works. The Auto EQ makes some fine adjustments. There's so much misunderstanding about how to use crossovers, that we simplified the choices for better chances of success.


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## britdavis

*Installed but a couple of pointers needed, please*

I got my whole system running today. At first it sounded awful, but after properly configuring xovers etc I ended up spending a couple of hours in my car just listening to music. It was awesome!!!

I do, however have two questions that I'm sure have answers buried in the pages of this thread, so please point me to them if I missed them.

I am running a 2004 4Runner JBL Synthesis speaker setup that I described a couple of pages back. Basically a 7.1 system.

Question 1: Is there a way to make the center channel not be so strong? It feels like it overpowers the front quite a bit.

Question 2: Is there a way to make the sound seem like it's more balanced from front to back? It feels like my stage is in front of me, and I prefer to feel like I'm in the middle of the sound, like you're wearing headphones. Like a fader function, perhaps.

I do remember reading something about reversing the polarity of the CC but don't know if that's something to try, and I remember something about covering the tweeters during the first pass of the calibration, but also don't remember what that was for.

Any help or pointers would be appreciated!

[edit] Just found system levels menu that will allow me to change the center level as well as fader. This might be what I need. If you have any other suggestions, I still welcome them!


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## abirvalg

Andy, what's a good Center/Sub CO point for JBL p462?
i think i may have blown one of them by setting it at 80...


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## 14642

abirvalg said:


> Andy, what's a good Center/Sub CO point for JBL p462?
> i think i may have blown one of them by setting it at 80...


depends on the power with which you're driving it. Which amp?


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## britdavis

*Using MS-8 to drive center and rears only*

I have a very straightforward system right now (head unit, MS-8, stock toyota synthesis 7.1 speakers). I'm replacing all the speakers with JBL GTO series (the 3 ohm ones), and considering adding a JL 700/5 amp to run my front, side, and sub (JL 8W1v2), but leaving the MS-8 to drive the center and rears.

With the JL driving my fronts and sides ~80W @3 ohms and sub ~180W, will the MS-8 do okay to drive the center and rears by itself? I'm trying to not add yet another amp and was hoping this would work.

Thoughts?

GTO629C front (recommended Power: 5-200 RMS each, rms 90, peak 270) 
GTO629 side (recommended Power: 5-125 RMS each, rms 60, peak 180) 
GTO329 center, rear (recommended Power: 5-50 RMS each, rms 50, peak 150)


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## abirvalg

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> depends on the power with which you're driving it. Which amp?


none, ms-8

matter of fact another question while i got your attention 
i had to scratch my "tweaker's itch", you know the one that makes people fix things that aren't broken 
so, i ditched the crossovers on my p660c fronts and went active

the entire setup is now 
JBL p462 - Center 85/24db 
JBL p660c - Fronts 3500/24db, 70/24db
JBL p662 - Rears 85/24db
all powered by ms-8
+ Kicker 8" sub powered by MA N2 monoblock

tuned at -35db, with sub polarity inverted and sub barely audible during the tune

i've only done one tune so far, but my highs are so bright that high acoustic guitar strings sound like they are coming loose
there is a buzz with every hit, it sounds like Jesse Cook's guitar is going to fall apart when he hits the highs

were did i go wrong?


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## britdavis

abirvalg said:


> none, ms-8
> 
> matter of fact another question while i got your attention
> i had to scratch my "tweaker's itch", you know the one that makes people fix things that aren't broken
> so, i ditched the crossovers on my p660c fronts and went active
> 
> the entire setup is now
> JBL p462 - Center 85/24db
> JBL p660c - Fronts 3500/24db, 70/24db
> JBL p662 - Rears 85/24db
> all powered by ms-8
> + Kicker 8" sub powered by MA N2 monoblock
> 
> tuned at -35db, with sub polarity inverted and sub barely audible during the tune
> 
> i've only done one tune so far, but my highs are so bright that high acoustic guitar strings sound like they are coming loose
> there is a buzz with every hit, it sounds like Jesse Cook's guitar is going to fall apart when he hits the highs
> 
> were did i go wrong?


abirvalg - I'm probably not the right person to answer, but it looks like we are using similar setups and, well, some stuff I've just learned that may be helpful to you, based on your questinon. EXPERTS: Please chime in!

It looks like you picked your xo points right on the bottom of the freq response of each speaker. Did I read that right? If so, that is prob too low, and from what I've read, we should be using xo that are 1-2 octaves over the speaker's resonant frequency. On my JBL's those are

77 Hz for my GTO629 pair = xo maybe at 250-300
151 for my GTO329 center = xo maybe at 600

But based on charts that I've seen that relate speaker size to typical frequency handling, it suggests

629 pair = xo maybe at 600
329 center = xo maybe at 2000

I'd really love to hear what others have to say about this before I do my next tuning, though.


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## abirvalg

thanks for chiming in!
the problem with higher XO's is that the sub location becomes a lot more detectable

on top of that in my instance the mono amp only allows up to 220 on the LP filter
my fronts (p660c) are capable all all the way down to 45, but the center's (p462) bottom is 75, that's where i'm probably crossing to low (85)


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## 14642

Just change your center crossover to something like 200 and you'll be fine.


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## taibanl

CDT FAN said:


> Originally, in the advanced mode, you could set the xo point of each driver individually, independent of other drivers. If I understand the manual correctly, with the production version, you choose one xo point between a set of drivers such as the mid and tweeter at the same time.


True, I guess that would have allowed over/underlap, but the "easy" mode supposedly picked xover points by driver size. I guess its intermediate mode ;-)


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## CDT FAN

cajunner said:


> has anyone tried an upside down mid bass under dash for center, with the on the dash mid/tweeter?
> 
> and if you did, using two channels of MS-8, with say, a Kef coincident source midrange for L/R, so you could have rears and sub, would it time align the midbass separately from the mid/tweeter, and still maintain the center?


I would like to try the kef q100 driver for my center channel, but you can only get them in pairs. I need to find someone else that is looking for a single driver.


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## mvalpreda

I know these are not the same device, but I have an Alpine PXA-H100 Imprint and I love what it did for the staging in my car. It sounds like the MS-8 does all the Imprint does and a lot more! 

Looking at a new car and probably won't replace the head unit....just put in an MS-8 and replace the speakers, add a sub etc.


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## hifitodd

Hey guys - Got an issue with my MS8...

I was looking into the wiring on my MS8, and managed to cross the +12V and ground wires on the ground terminal on the MS8.... without remember to unhook my battery.

There was a spark... and now the MS8 isn't doing anything, but the blue power LED is on. It's not starting up the amp, and the display is not lighting up.

I was hoping it was just the fuse that got blown, but I replaced the 25A fuse on the ms8 and no change.

Any idea what might have happened?

Thanks


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## LAValleyM35

I have the 14 speaker Bose system which I added the Bose MS-8 recently which is a very nice integration with my system. I also added a RF 10 in sub with Alpine amp. But now looking to replace all four door speakers with Alpine Type R. (SPR-60C in the front and SPR-60 in the rear.) I have seen that some websites claim these won't fit or need some sort of adapter according to Crutchfield. I am open to other speakers but these seem to be great upgrades. Please comment if these speakers are a good fit for Infiniti M35X or another brand (Infinity, Focal, Polk, etc) would be any better and why. Also, not sure if I'm going to wire them directly to the MS-8 or need an Alpine (4-channel) amp.


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## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Kai,
> that shouldn't be necessary. Try changing the crossover point and reversing the phase of the sub. Remove your "mod" and identify the sub as sub in MS-8's menu. I think that will take care of this, now that the sub isn't in a tiny box only in te trunk. Your diagram is right, except for one thing--There's a significant delay through MS-8 for all of the processing to happen, so if you split the sub before, you need to delay it too.


Andy, I put the sub back on a dedicated MS-8 channel, crossover 18 dB/oct @ 63Hz. The sub is better integrated but the sub bass notes are still clearly behind me. Any suggestions regarding crossover settings?


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## abirvalg

the most helpful thing for me as far as blending in the sub was running the calibration with the sub polarity reversed


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## Golden Ear

Just picked up my first dsp, this one! Can't wait to have an active setup. Gonna start reading this daunting thread. Sub'd for updates.


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## jerrychrist

Well, haven't posted on here for a while but some of you might remember I was having endless MS-8 midbass problems.

Well I finally broke down and decided to go buy a new head unit for my 2011 Dodge challenger. I had the 730n HU with Sound Group II. I just picked up the Kenwood 890HD and will be going active now. 

Before I was just rocking JL C5 650s powered by a JL XD 200/2 with the passive xovers and a 12" infinity reference powered by a 500/1 RF amp.

I also picked up a JL C2 350x for my center channel. Now I am going to power just the C5 650 woofers (in doors) with the JL XD 200/2, power the C5 tweets, C2 center, and OEM rears with the MS8. Same sub setup.

Will cross the sub at 75-80, the center at 200, and the tweets at maybe 4.5k?

I still remember most of the MS8 tricks but other than that I sure hope this works. Does everything about the setup look good to you guys?


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## cjazzy4

HI Andy, I have been thinking about the MS-8 as the DSP for my system....But I had questions about how to hook it up.....The instructions don't address a dual amp set-up.....My system will consist of HU Pioneer avh-p8400bh (3 sets of pre outs).....My 4 ch amp is Pioneer GM-d8604......My sub amp is Pioneer gm-D8601.....I will be replacing all speakers in car with after market and running new speaker wire.
How should this system be connected ?


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## jerrychrist

cjazzy4 said:


> HI Andy, I have been thinking about the MS-8 as the DSP for my system....But I had questions about how to hook it up.....The instructions don't address a dual amp set-up.....My system will consist of HU Pioneer avh-p8400bh (3 sets of pre outs).....My 4 ch amp is Pioneer GM-d8604......My sub amp is Pioneer gm-D8601.....I will be replacing all speakers in car with after market and running new speaker wire.
> How should this system be connected ?


Correct me if I'm wrong but you just need one a left/right signal from the HU to the ms8, then all your amps after that, then to your speakers.


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## 14642

cjazzy4 said:


> HI Andy, I have been thinking about the MS-8 as the DSP for my system....But I had questions about how to hook it up.....The instructions don't address a dual amp set-up.....My system will consist of HU Pioneer avh-p8400bh (3 sets of pre outs).....My 4 ch amp is Pioneer GM-d8604......My sub amp is Pioneer gm-D8601.....I will be replacing all speakers in car with after market and running new speaker wire.
> How should this system be connected ?


The instruction manual that's on the setup CD includes a diagram for this.


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## 14642

jerrychrist said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but you just need one a left/right signal from the HU to the ms8, then all your amps after that, then to your speakers.



Correct.


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## cjazzy4

jerrychrist said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but you just need one a left/right signal from the HU to the ms8, then all your amps after that, then to your speakers.


OH okay ....So the instructions for my set up is on the CD that comes with it.....I was was a bit confused....So since I'm using all after market gear the supplied Hi-level input wiring connector will NOT be used? ( I do not have to cut wires in the car.) What gauge of power wire should be used? Do I run an addition power wire for my 4 ch and Mono amp or they ran from the MS-8?
Sorry about all the "novice" questions but only way to learn without blowing something to "kingdom come".


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## Problemhouston

Read through a couple of pages looking for an answer to my question but didn't see anything so here it goes.

Who is using the MS-8's built in amps and what type of volumes are you seeing. I am considering using one for my 65 mustang and am going for a mostly stealth install so the only other amp in the system would be a sub amp. The low end will consist of a pair of 15 IB if I have the height and if not 3 12's IB. 

Also, can I use the MS-8 with just an iPad as the source so I don't have to use a dedicated head unit. If so how would I do it. I know this has been answered before but even out of the search function there hare soo many posts and most of them just say yes you can do it but don't describe how.

Thanks for your help.


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## t3sn4f2

Problemhouston said:


> Read through a couple of pages looking for an answer to my question but didn't see anything so here it goes.
> 
> Who is using the MS-8's built in amps and what type of volumes are you seeing. I am considering using one for my 65 mustang and am going for a mostly stealth install so the only other amp in the system would be a sub amp. The low end will consist of a pair of 15 IB if I have the height and if not 3 12's IB.


Online Decibel Watts Calculator

Just plug in the numbers and that will tell you the loudness difference.




Problemhouston said:


> Also, can I use the MS-8 with just an iPad as the source so I don't have to use a dedicated head unit. If so how would I do it. I know this has been answered before but even out of the search function there hare soo many posts and most of them just say yes you can do it but don't describe how.
> 
> Thanks for your help.


line out from any given dock connector to AUX input. Or a slightly less noisy and higher output voltage option (which also charges the iDevice) is to use an HRT iStreamer and lug that into the MS-8's main line level/RCA input.


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## kaigoss69

kaigoss69 said:


> Andy, I put the sub back on a dedicated MS-8 channel, crossover 18 dB/oct @ 63Hz. The sub is better integrated but the sub bass notes are still clearly behind me. Any suggestions regarding crossover settings?


Please allow me to answer my own question this time. Turns out that after proper level-setting of the sub, and smoothing out the response especially in the step-down transition between sub and midbass frequencies, I have to say that I am extremely pleased with the results. Having the sub on its own MS-8 channel has given me the best result so far with my IB set-up (AE SBP-15 firing through ski-pass). When I had the sub in the trunk (corner-loaded) it was VERY difficult, if not impossible, to get the sub and mid-bass working together the way they are right now, and I had to come up with workarounds to get the best results.

Finally, after many months of frustration, it sounds the best it ever has and I am looking forward again to being able to get in my car and take it out for joy-rides!


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## 14642

^^


----------



## trumpet

kaigoss69 said:


> Please allow me to answer my own question this time. Turns out that after proper level-setting of the sub, and smoothing out the response especially in the step-down transition between sub and midbass frequencies, I have to say that I am extremely pleased with the results. Having the sub on its own MS-8 channel has given me the best result so far with my IB set-up (AE SBP-15 firing through ski-pass). When I had the sub in the trunk (corner-loaded) it was VERY difficult, if not impossible, to get the sub and mid-bass working together the way they are right now, and I had to come up with workarounds to get the best results.
> 
> Finally, after many months of frustration, it sounds the best it ever has and I am looking forward again to being able to get in my car and take it out for joy-rides!


Isn't it great when you can figure this stuff out and just enjoy the music? I'm looking forward to a 2.5 hour drive I'm making tonight because of this. So much music, so little time.


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## Beckerson1

I'm curious if anyone knows this:

Does the MS8 output a balanced signal. (No I'm not talking about the balanced inputs) I'm having some issues and this was brought up in which could be a cause of my issue.


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## 14642

The speaker output is balanced. The RCA output is not. What problem are you having?


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## Beckerson1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The speaker output is balanced. The RCA output is not. What problem are you having?


Look here:

Experienced Members: Help Needed! - Realm of Excursion

it describes everything in detail. Today I will be testing everything on the ground (just HU, amps, MS8, two mids I have lying around, and a battery. The hope is to find that it is something with either my speaker wire runs, RCA run, or other issue such as a poor ground at the HU causing a ground loop problem etc...


----------



## doeboy

I got a basic question guys. So I want to run a three way active in the front and have two rear speakers and the two subs. could I run the rears and subs off of one channel each that has a wire that double the rca output from one channel? Basically taking channel 7 and doubling it and channel 8 and doubling it? Basically I have a need for 10 channels and if this can't be done the way I mention I will have to figure something out. A minidsp for the rears could be bought, but I would have to adjust the latency with it since the ms-8 has something like 7 or 8 ms of latency.


----------



## Bluenote

^ if I recall correctly Andy suggested that with minidsp in the chain you would set its xover and time-alignment separately and then run the MS8 calibration.


----------



## subwoofery

doeboy said:


> I got a basic question guys. So I want to run a three way active in the front and have two rear speakers and the two subs. could I run the rears and subs off of one channel each that has a wire that double the rca output from one channel? Basically taking channel 7 and doubling it and channel 8 and doubling it? Basically I have a need for 10 channels and if this can't be done the way I mention I will have to figure something out. A minidsp for the rears could be bought, but I would have to adjust the latency with it since the ms-8 has something like 7 or 8 ms of latency.


You want to run the rears and the sub of one channel. Great. Let's see if that can work: 

You will let the MS-8 do its thing for the front stage. Will you choose SUB or SIDES in your output settings? 
Subwoofer only plays below about 80Hz - meaning you won't be choosing SUB as the output 
Rear-fill only plays out of phase information from the recording - meaning your subwoofer won't play much from the song... 

The only way to have everything you need, is to have the TW & MID on the MiniDSP - set Xover and T/A yourself 
T/A between the TW & MID is less a problem if not set right. 

Else, you can run a passive Xover between the TW & MID

Kelvin


----------



## kaigoss69

doeboy said:


> I got a basic question guys. So I want to run a three way active in the front and have two rear speakers and the two subs. could I run the rears and subs off of one channel each that has a wire that double the rca output from one channel? Basically taking channel 7 and doubling it and channel 8 and doubling it? Basically I have a need for 10 channels and if this can't be done the way I mention I will have to figure something out. A minidsp for the rears could be bought, but I would have to adjust the latency with it since the ms-8 has something like 7 or 8 ms of latency.


The best way to do this would be to set the system up without a sub, and let the midbass play all the way down. Then split the midbass signal coming from the MS-8 either at the amp or you can use y-splitter RCAs.


----------



## 14642

I'd suggest using a passive on the front mids and tweeters or an additional electronic crossover or a mini DSP. Then you'll have the logic 7 for rears.

There's no good reason to use 2 RCAs for sub. If you choose "2" in the menu, thy both get the same signal.


----------



## Beckerson1

Andy:

I figured out my issues and luckily it wasn't the MS8. The only thing that isn't working correctly with the MS8 is the Mute option (not that I use it). All it does is mess up the speaker configuration. Kinda sounds like it changes tweeters to mids and mids to tweeters. Then when I hit it again it goes back to normal.


----------



## 14642

Sounds to me like you got a unit that has been updated with the software update that turns the mute button into a "processing off" button. Did you buy it new?


----------



## Beckerson1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sounds to me like you got a unit that has been updated with the software update that turns the mute button into a "processing off" button. Did you buy it new?


I bought it BNIB off of Papasin.


----------



## 14642

HMMMM...doesn't sound like BNIB to me.


----------



## Beckerson1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> HMMMM...doesn't sound like BNIB to me.


Here is the FS thread. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-classifieds/139671-fs-jbl-ms-8-bnib-never-has-seen-power.html

And I can confirm it was in fact brand new in box.

I don't really care if the mute button works or not as I don't use it. It was just weird it did what it did.


----------



## doublej0305

Thanks for all the information in the thread. I think I have my head wrapped around the MS8 but would like to get your opinions...

I plan on running the stock OEM stereo (no rca's or sub out) connected to the MS8 which will be connected to two amps
-PDX-F4 front mid and tweet (using a passive x-over) and rear
-PDX-V9 Bridged for front low mid and sub

This brings it to 7 channels when using the x-over. Do you guys see anything wrong with this setup? 

Also I did plan on purchasing the C5-653 package but I do have some Hertz x-overs which would allow me to purchase the components individually saving me some money. Any problem with using this crossover even though it's not JL audio?

I've attached a sketch of what I'm trying to achieve... Thanks!


----------



## LovesMusic

would I be of any bennefit sacrificing 75wrms from my bridged to tweets slash300.4 to some rear hat imagines I can source?

or should I leave the 150w on the tweets and wire up rears from the ms8s internal amp..

If rears with L7 on is only playing out of phase/ambiance hz is #2 my answer? 

Thanks


----------



## kaigoss69

doublej0305 said:


> Thanks for all the information in the thread. I think I have my head wrapped around the MS8 but would like to get your opinions...
> 
> I plan on running the stock OEM stereo (no rca's or sub out) connected to the MS8 which will be connected to two amps
> -PDX-F4 front mid and tweet (using a passive x-over) and rear
> -PDX-V9 Bridged for front low mid and sub
> 
> This brings it to 7 channels when using the x-over. Do you guys see anything wrong with this setup?
> 
> Also I did plan on purchasing the C5-653 package but I do have some Hertz x-overs which would allow me to purchase the components individually saving me some money. Any problem with using this crossover even though it's not JL audio?
> 
> I've attached a sketch of what I'm trying to achieve... Thanks!


That's close to my set-up, except I have a center channel. If you want to use the Hertz x-overs I would look at the impedance of the Hertz tweeter compared to the JL. Make sure they are similar (not one 4 and the other 8 ohm for example). Also, look at the x-over point of the Hertz passive and make sure the JL can handle it. I am using Rainbow Profi passives with the Rainbow Cal 25 tweets and HAT L3SE mids, so in my case the tweeter was not the concern, but it's also a somewhat bastardized set-up like you're planning. It worked great for me!


----------



## kaigoss69

LovesMusic said:


> would I be of any bennefit sacrificing 75wrms from my bridged to tweets slash300.4 to some rear hat imagines I can source?
> 
> or should I leave the 150w on the tweets and wire up rears from the ms8s internal amp..
> 
> If rears with L7 on is only playing out of phase/ambiance hz is #2 my answer?
> 
> Thanks


That's what I would do (#2), assuming your tweets need that much power to keep up with the rest of the system. Keep in mind though that as soon as you run any of the channels from the MS-8's internal amp, then those channels become the baseline for your level matching. This means that the overall volume level could drop as a result. There is a workaround to increase the levels of the externally amplified channels post calibration, but the "ambience" level from the sides/rears would be sacrificed.


----------



## neurotictim

Not that I have anything really pertinent to add, but I finally got everything installed in my car, and having read something like 200+ pages of this thread, I feel like I've got a pretty good handle on the MS-8. I'm not *quite* blown away, but that's unrelated to the processing.

For what it's worth, I did have to do the Kaigoss method of tricking the MS-8 into thinking I didn't have a sub in order to get any sort of real midrange, but now that that's accomplished, it's a very well-balanced sound.

All I need now is a bass remote knob and I *think* I'll be happy.


----------



## cjazzy4

*Rockford Fostgate 3sixty3*

I was wondering.....In my upcoming build my head unit is the Pioneer AVH-P8400BH which has 4v output......If I purchased the JBL MS-8 which has a 2v output then I lose output power of my headunit. I ran across the Rockford Fosgate 3sixty3 which states per their spec section online a whopping 8 volts output. 

So based on these comparisons I greatly enhance my system overall by going with the Rockford Fosgate 3sixty3. Is this a correct conclusion? 
Any insights out there.


----------



## LovesMusic

kaigoss69 said:


> That's what I would do (#2), assuming your tweets need that much power to keep up with the rest of the system. Keep in mind though that as soon as you run any of the channels from the MS-8's internal amp, then those channels become the baseline for your level matching. This means that the overall volume level could drop as a result. There is a workaround to increase the levels of the externally amplified channels post calibration, but the "ambience" level from the sides/rears would be sacrificed.


Thanks for the reply,
I think that #2 would be my best bet as well. 
set up
7" in door 300wrms
tweets in sail panel 150wrms
Each channel will have its own gain pot.

What is your external amp'd workaround method regarding post calibration?

While I have your attention if you dont mind.

I had problems with another similar 2way set up regarding midbass. Midbass is there with no sub integration and gone when the sub is integrated. The car is a 2009 accord coupe. I think I was having phase issues with the sub due to the large reflection distance from the sub to the rear trunk about 4.5 ft, sub facing rear of car. Anyway this new build will have to 8"s facing into the cabin sealed from the trunk, hopefully this will solve the midbass and sub phase dilema that causes the ms8 to cancel Hz. Before the ms8 no dsp same rear firing trunk sub setup and I had both midbass and sub integration. any thoughts?


----------



## doeboy

doeboy said:


> I got a basic question guys. So I want to run a three way active in the front and have two rear speakers and the two subs. could I run the rears and subs off of one channel each that has a wire that double the rca output from one channel? Basically taking channel 7 and doubling it and channel 8 and doubling it? Basically I have a need for 10 channels and if this can't be done the way I mention I will have to figure something out. A minidsp for the rears could be bought, but I would have to adjust the latency with it since the ms-8 has something like 7 or 8 ms of latency.


Would it be possible to get an active headunit like the deh 80prs pioneer and have it correct the rears via the active rear rca output? Clearly the front rca out would be used for the ms8. Perhaps I could have the subwoofers running off the head unit rca's instead of the rears. I mention this because my headunit is having problems and if I get a new one maybe I could kill two problems by selecting an active unit.


----------



## MatthewB

'12 accord 6 speaker no stock amp or sub.

2 way active front stage (boston pro60se) mids in doors, tweets in sail panels, powered from jl 300/4
Dayton rs180's rear fill. Powered by ms8
Single 12w6v2, powered by jl 500/1


I know I need to set the rears as sides. I've got a cap inline to the tweets. I know sub is coming off channel 7&8.

My plan is to run,

Powered off the 300/4 

Channel 1/ LF Mid
Channel 2/ RF Mid
Channel 3/ LF tweet
Channel 4/ RF tweet

Powered off the ms8
Channel 5/ LR
Channel 6/ RR

Powered off the 500/1
Channels 7,8/ Sub

A couple quick questions..

Any foreseeable problems with that set up? Any suggested changes?

Do I only need to run The LF and RF high level inputs to channels 1 and 2 to the ms8? OR Should i pull LR and RR signals to input channels 3 and 4? I've searched and found a couple things but just want a definitive answer. Seems like I only need 2 Front input channels into the ms8 for it to do its thing right?

Also Jbl suggests at LEAST 12 awg for power and ground. Should I step that up a bit or is that ok? I like to overkill things in general so..


----------



## t3sn4f2

MatthewB said:


> '12 accord 6 speaker no stock amp or sub.
> 
> 2 way active front stage (boston pro60se) mids in doors, tweets in sail panels, powered from jl 300/4
> Dayton rs180's rear fill. Powered by ms8
> Single 12w6v2, powered by jl 500/1
> 
> 
> I know I need to set the rears as sides. I've got a cap inline to the tweets. I know sub is coming off channel 7&8.
> 
> My plan is to run,
> 
> Powered off the 300/4
> 
> Channel 1/ LF Mid
> Channel 2/ RF Mid
> Channel 3/ LF tweet
> Channel 4/ RF tweet
> 
> Powered off the ms8
> Channel 5/ LR
> Channel 6/ RR
> 
> Powered off the 500/1
> Channels 7,8/ Sub
> 
> A couple quick questions..
> 
> Any foreseeable problems with that set up? Any suggested changes?
> 
> Do I only need to run The LF and RF high level inputs to channels 1 and 2 to the ms8? OR Should i pull LR and RR signals to input channels 3 and 4? I've searched and found a couple things but just want a definitive answer. Seems like I only need 2 Front input channels into the ms8 for it to do its thing right?
> 
> Also Jbl suggests at LEAST 12 awg for power and ground. Should I step that up a bit or is that ok? I like to overkill things in general so..


-Rears need to play up to at least 10kHz. The RS180s fall way short of that in Frequency response flatness, extension, and dispersion. About as bad a choice for a make shift over sized full range as it gets. Find yourself a good but not expensive set or 6.5-7" coaxes and you'll be set.

Look at how wacky they get near 10kHz when playing without a tweeter and lowpass filter.










http://www.daytonaudio.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/2/9/295-374_2.jpg

-No need to run the tweeter outputs along with the front woofer output into the ms-8. That head unit only has a front and rear out. The front tweeter have a passive crossover on the tweeters and likely nothing on the woofer. So just run the front left and right outputs directly from the back of the head unit.

-IIRC the reason to run both front and rear into the ms-8 is so that you can maintain the OEM head unit fader controls when not running the Logic7 feature. But I could be wrong and can remember what inputs to use for the rear signal.


----------



## CDT FAN

What range are the rears suppose to cover?


----------



## MatthewB

I understand they don't reach high up on the frequency response. I can't just cross them lower? Are coaxials i.e. a tweeter nessecary for rear fill? Will crossing them lower cause havoc with the ms8? No one is ever in the backseat so those were my thought. Thanks for the input.


----------



## subwoofery

CDT FAN said:


> What range are the rears suppose to cover?


No lower than 100Hz and up to 10kHz 

Kelvin


----------



## CDT FAN

subwoofery said:


> No lower than 100Hz and up to 10kHz
> 
> Kelvin


Thanks. I thought about just leaving my so-so factory 6x9's in the rear, but I will have to make some kind of enclosures for them so that the IB sub doesn't cause them to vibrate too much. I also have a set of CDT ES-02's that I could mount on the back deck, but I don't think they will play low enough. That is why I was curious about the freq range.


----------



## subwoofery

CDT FAN said:


> Thanks. I thought about just leaving my so-so factory 6x9's in the rear, but I will have to make some kind of enclosures for them so that the IB sub doesn't cause them to vibrate too much. I also have a set of CDT ES-02's that I could mount on the back deck, but I don't think they will play low enough. That is why I was curious about the freq range.


Andy said it a thousand times though: "you need a tweeter!!!!!" 

Kelvin


----------



## t3sn4f2

CDT FAN said:


> Thanks. I thought about just leaving my so-so factory 6x9's in the rear, but I will have to make some kind of enclosures for them so that the IB sub doesn't cause them to vibrate too much. I also have a set of CDT ES-02's that I could mount on the back deck, but I don't think they will play low enough. That is why I was curious about the freq range.


Andy's mentioned that he's had success with high pass settings of up to 300Hz. That should free you up to use a small box DIY woofer with ease. Something that gets into the mid hundreds and only requires an ~.1cuft. enclosure. This is of course for Logic7 rear fill applications and not standard stereo setups where you want to have traditional sound from the back for rear seat passengers.


----------



## CDT FAN

t3sn4f2 said:


> Andy's mentioned that he's had success with high pass settings of up to 300Hz. That should free you up to use a small box DIY woofer with ease. Something that gets into the mid hundreds and only requires an ~.1cuft. enclosure. This is of course for Logic7 rear fill applications and not standard stereo setups where you want to have traditional sound from the back for rear seat passengers.


The CDT ES-02's specs are from 400-20,00 hz (seriously, that's what it says). Anyway, I guess maybe it isn't what I need for the job.


----------



## t3sn4f2

CDT FAN said:


> The CDT ES-02's specs are from 400-20,00 hz (seriously, that's what it says). Anyway, I guess maybe it isn't what I need for the job.


Yeah too insensitive and very low mechanical power handling IF you run it down to ~300-400Hz without an enclosure.


----------



## MatthewB

Quick question andy/kaigoss69/anybody..I'm getting no signal output to anything thats wired to the speaker level outs from the ms8. 

My subwoofer powered by an external amplifier does get the pink noise im looking for. Measured with a DMM at every speaker terminal powered by the ms8 and get nothing. 

Seems as if the rca outs are working just fine but the amplifier in the ms8 is a no go.

Any ideas? I ready somewhere I can initiate just the noise test somehow but can't find it right now. No music today in the car oh well.


----------



## doped304

Well I have sat on the sidelines long enough. I got my MS8 hooked up and have been messing with it for about a week and have a few problems. First my setup is a 2005 extended cab silverado with the following:
HU- 80PRS
3 way front with:
Vifa XT25 1" dual ring tweeters in stock location
6.5 German maestro mid in the kickpanel
dayton rs180 in stock woofer location
Image Dynamic IDQ10 V3 in a 2.4 f3 box 
Tweeter/mid amp is a audioque Q4-120
Daytons are ran off a massive audio N2
Sub ran off a audiopipe 1500
Everything is deadened and all phases are correct. 
My biggest problem is low volume after calibration. I have my amps around 2 volts with the ms8 at -6 and my headunit 61 out of 62 its still very quiet. I have tried starting with low gains and after calibrating I turn up the gains. Sweeps from 50 to 40 are barley audible. I have swept from 50 to 20 and nothing really makes a huge difference. Stage is pretty low but the sound is pretty detailed. 
My second biggest problem is selecting my crossover points. I read that the ms8 does not flow "normal" crossover logic. Where would you pass these at? It sounds best at [email protected], daytons @ 300, and the tweeters coming in at 2400.
I ran the 80prs in a 2 way front active prior to the ms8 and it was pretty quiet then. It helps a little to boost the level to +2 on the headunit with a boost on the AUX on the ms8. I tested the preout voltage of the 80prs and it is nowhere near the claimed 5 volts on the front or rear but the sub output is fairly stout. Well any input would be appreciated. I need to get it dialed in because I need to put in my rear seat but I cant really tweek with the seat in. Thanks!


----------



## nerofive4

Is the firmware update scrapped, or am I just a poor search feature user?


----------



## Beckerson1

nerofive4 said:


> Is the firmware update scrapped, or am I just a poor search feature user?


I only know of one firmware update and it has something to do with Bluetooth.


----------



## VP Electricity

The update for the mute button defeating the processing for phone calls was released... I don't know of another. 

I don't see any mention of this over the past month or so, and it's public knowledge, so - Andy W is no longer with Harman/JBL, so I would expect that any support he lends from here out on the MS-8 will be rare. I wish him well in his next venture. I understand that car is going into pro audio at JBL and I have no doubt that there will be no one after Andy who will offer the support and assistance which he has over the past years.


----------



## t3sn4f2

VP Electricity said:


> The update for the mute button defeating the processing for phone calls was released... I don't know of another.
> 
> I don't see any mention of this over the past month or so, and it's public knowledge, so - Andy W is no longer with Harman/JBL, so I would expect that any support he lends from here out on the MS-8 will be rare. I wish him well in his next venture. I understand that car is going into pro audio at JBL and I have no doubt that there will be no one after Andy who will offer the support and assistance which he has over the past years.


Hey Ken, dunno if you've seen this but just in case.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/144877-andy-leaving-harman.html

I also recall him mentioning in a post where he would still be providing support for the MS-8 but in more of a power user way.


----------



## Rye595

Bummer! Does anyone know where we can get that bluetooth firmware upgrade? I actually called customer service yesterday, and they had no knowledge of it - or were denying it existed because they don't want to support it.


----------



## 14642

Hey guys,
I'm still here and willing to help. MS-8 is my creation, after all. 

You can access the secret menu by holding the left directional button for a second, release it and hold the right button. It sound to me like the internal amp has failed. Send an email to tech support at JBL.com Country Selector. If it's under warranty, they'll replace it for you.


----------



## Grendel

Is there a fix for phone calls through the MS8 causing a delay? I really don't want to run another speaker.


----------



## taibanl

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hey guys,
> I'm still here and willing to help. MS-8 is my creation, after all.
> 
> You can access the secret menu by holding the left directional button for a second, release it and hold the right button. It sound to me like the internal amp has failed. Send an email to tech support at JBL.com Country Selector. If it's under warranty, they'll replace it for you.


Andy, I have an older unit which is no longer under warranty, but I recently discovered from one of your posts that the remote have been upgraded later on to increase the range. I have tried a few calls to support but they have gone nowhere is there something I can say in order to get the remote switched out for a stronger one?
Thanks, Andy


----------



## The Max

It's comforting to know you're still around to help us out whenever you can, Andy. I'll thank you in advance for what I'm about to ask.

I just powered up my MS-8 for the first time, though it's well outside of its warranty since I had to work overseas of a long while, preventing me from getting my project done in good time.

Anyway, the point being, it went through the setup and calibration steps without a hitch aside from the occasionally unresponsive remote control. Once that was done and I started adjusting the Tone Control options and then EQ, I came across an issue with the unit becoming frozen and/or unresponsive.

It freezes if I attempt to access the Save Favorites option in the Favorites menu. Sound continues to process. Resetting the unit or powering the car off and back on (to accessories at least) gets me back in control.

Other times, if I make an EQ adjustment and then go into the Tone Control or System Volume screens to make adjustments, the sliders move but the sound remains unchanged. Again, I have to either hit the reset button or power cycle.

Occasionally, if I attempt to reconfigure my input/output set up (for the sake of changing the crossover values), it either freezes on the warning that I will lose my settings or it freezes on the Erasing Filters - Please Wait screen.

Likewise, if I attempt to change the listening position or even switch on/off the Logic 7, again, it will freeze but will respond accordingly once I've reset the unit and not gone to any other menu option beforehand.

I've tried performing this without the car running, with the car running, checked my power connections on an oscilloscope and can't find anything out of the ordinary. I've performed a Reset to Factory Defaults but while it does become more responsive to the remote control (though not perfect, I'll check the battery in that next), I still get the same issues I've mentioned above.

Any idea what's going on here? I'm at a complete loss. I'm running what seems to be the typical firmware - Main 3.96, DSP 1.30 (both from memory, if I remembered correctly) - but I can't understand why I'm seemingly the only one suffering from these problems while everyone else seems to be doing fine. Doesn't the American product like my Japanese market Infiniti G37?


----------



## 14642

First, check to be sure that the display cable is plugged in completely and that there's no pressure on the connector at the amp from some adjacent surface or mounting apparatus.


----------



## mooch91

When I had the ms8 and it would freeze I would simply unplug and replug the display to get it responsive again. I never had the need to power it down or do a hard reset. For what its worth...


----------



## 14642

Grendel said:


> Is there a fix for phone calls through the MS8 causing a delay? I really don't want to run another speaker.


Turn off processing and L7 in the menu and see if that improves the call quality. If it does, the update will help you. IF it doesn't, then we'll need to find another work-around. What kind of car?


----------



## The Max

Thanks Andy and Mooch. I reseated the connectors at both ends, which has resolved those freezes. It took a bit of coercion from my remote control to Save and Recall favorites but at least there was no freezing.

Only thing now though is that after a minute of working with the remote control, whose performance has been erratic at best, it's now completely unresponsive. I've checked the battery and it's 3.0V under load which should be fine for all intents and purposes.

Just to err on the side of caution, I'm going to replace the battery anyway and see how that flies. Otherwise, I'll look to getting a replacement remote control and hope for the best.


----------



## The Max

Well, a new battery didn't fix it which was a clear indication something was wrong with the remote and I found that it was the IC on the far right which had a few dry joints.

I must admit, I'm really starting to get the ****s with this MS-8. Almost every time the car is turned on, the JBL starts up, puts out audio and then reboots, cutting out the sound momentarily. The end result being clipped audio and more of the same of what I've reported before. I've adjusted my Rockford Fosgate T800.4ad amp with the gains at 5/11 for the front and 6/11 for the rear with the System Volume on the MS-8 set at -24dB. Setting it to -36dB still yields the same clipping.

I shouldn't have put all the trim back into the trunk because I'll now need to take it out in order to plug in the microphone headset and perform a complete factory default set up again and see if the clipped audio will go away back to the way it was before. That's my own fault.

If not, I seriously can't be bothered persevering with it any longer and I'll just have to redesign my stack in the G37 to accommodate something else because it just shouldn't be this damn difficult to get a DSP up and running. Thanks for your help Andy. It's more than I can say for Harman Kardon's official support team.

I really miss my old Sony XDP-210EQ DSP. No time alignments, etc. Just a reasonable 18 band EQ off the old MDX-C8900 MD deck, no wireless controls - just a shame it wouldn't work without a supported head unit, otherwise I'd have installed that in here instead.


----------



## 14642

Hey, Sorry. I find it inconceivable that they haven't assigned someone to this product.


----------



## Sknoch

I have seen little snippets on the web that indicate there is a firmware update for the Ms-8, but I cannot find an actual link anywhere. Can someone point me in the right direction?

Thanks,
Shawn


----------



## beemarman

BL –MS8 connection:

Output 1: FL connected to JL HD 600/4 (4 inch Rainbow component with crossover)

Output 2: FR connected to JL HD 600/4 (4 inch Rainbow component with crossover)

Output 6: FL JL HD 600/4 (OEM underseat woofer ) 

Output 7: FR JL HD 600/4 (OEM underseat woofer)

Output 5: Centre – JBL internal amp (OEM center speaker)

Output 3: RL JBL internal amp (OEM Rear)

Output 4: RR JBL Internal amp (OEM Rear)

Output 8: sub JL 750/1 (2 10inch 10w3v3 subs)

Can somebody advise me on how I set-up the MS8 for the above? I want to know what crossover to set the fronts, Midbass, Centre and subs at.


Thanks for all your help.


----------



## t3sn4f2

beemarman said:


> BL –MS8 connection:
> 
> Output 1: FL connected to JL HD 600/4 (4 inch Rainbow component with crossover)
> 
> Output 2: FR connected to JL HD 600/4 (4 inch Rainbow component with crossover)
> 
> Output 6: FL JL HD 600/4 (OEM underseat woofer )
> 
> Output 7: FR JL HD 600/4 (OEM underseat woofer)
> 
> Output 5: Centre – JBL internal amp (OEM center speaker)
> 
> Output 3: RL JBL internal amp (OEM Rear)
> 
> Output 4: RR JBL Internal amp (OEM Rear)
> 
> Output 8: sub JL 750/1 (2 10inch 10w3v3 subs)
> 
> Can somebody advise me on how I set-up the MS8 for the above? I want to know what crossover to set the fronts, Midbass, Centre and subs at.
> 
> 
> Thanks for all your help.


Which car and OEM system? What type of center channel? Size, quality, design (ie fullrange, midrange, mid tweeter, etc.)


----------



## Mrimstad

Sknoch said:


> I have seen little snippets on the web that indicate there is a firmware update for the Ms-8, but I cannot find an actual link anywhere. Can someone point me in the right direction?
> 
> Thanks,
> Shawn


harman - old - MS-8

This was only a small fw fix for the echo problems as far as i know. Unless Andy can shedd some light on wether there are other fw uppdates.
Links are on the right.
As for instalation, there is a pdf file also in the links.


----------



## The Max

Bugger.

It seems to come good after a factory reset and reconfig but it doesn't last long. Sometimes it will reboot itself and cut out the audio momentarily, other times it will only save part of my EQ curve and without fail, once I start making adjustments to the EQ curve, after a few bands of adjustment, the screen responds but the audio remains the same though it reintroduces clipping. Additionally, even muting or adjusting the system volume results in no change to the volume until I restart the display by unplugging/plugging it.

Even using a short 2.5mm stereo cable close to the main unit itself makes no difference. This just isn't working out.

Thanks for your help with this guys but I've lost faith in this product given JBL haven't yet responded still and other users are experiencing difficulties from time to time with their displays freezing up. It just doesn't fill me with confidence and I'm going to have to redo my stack with an alternative unit.

Maybe I'm just unlucky with this one unit but being outside of warranty, I'd rather spend my money on something that gives me a little more control in terms of at least an EQ for each channel rather than a single EQ for all channels.


----------



## 14642

Sknoch said:


> I have seen little snippets on the web that indicate there is a firmware update for the Ms-8, but I cannot find an actual link anywhere. Can someone point me in the right direction?
> 
> Thanks,
> Shawn



There is only one update and it turns the mute button into a processing off button. It isn't Windows, so there's no need to update unless you're trying to solve THAT specific problem (bluetooth echo). If you are trying to fix bluetooth, then go into the audio controls menu and turn processing and Logic7 off. If it fixes your problem, then update. IF it doesn't, then don't update.


----------



## 14642

beemarman said:


> BL –MS8 connection:
> 
> Output 1: FL connected to JL HD 600/4 (4 inch Rainbow component with crossover)
> 
> Output 2: FR connected to JL HD 600/4 (4 inch Rainbow component with crossover)
> 
> Output 6: FL JL HD 600/4 (OEM underseat woofer )
> 
> Output 7: FR JL HD 600/4 (OEM underseat woofer)
> 
> Output 5: Centre – JBL internal amp (OEM center speaker)
> 
> Output 3: RL JBL internal amp (OEM Rear)
> 
> Output 4: RR JBL Internal amp (OEM Rear)
> 
> Output 8: sub JL 750/1 (2 10inch 10w3v3 subs)
> 
> Can somebody advise me on how I set-up the MS8 for the above? I want to know what crossover to set the fronts, Midbass, Centre and subs at.
> 
> 
> Thanks for all your help.


Looks like a BMW to me. 

Sub: 1 
Subsonic filter: 20Hz, 12dB/octave
Sub/Front Xover: 70Hz, 24dB/octave
Front: 2-way
Front low/high crossover: 150Hz, 24dB/octave
Side: 1 way, 
Side Crossover: 100Hz
Center: 1 way
Center crossover: 150Hz


----------



## 14642

The Max said:


> Bugger.
> 
> It seems to come good after a factory reset and reconfig but it doesn't last long. Sometimes it will reboot itself and cut out the audio momentarily, other times it will only save part of my EQ curve and without fail, once I start making adjustments to the EQ curve, after a few bands of adjustment, the screen responds but the audio remains the same though it reintroduces clipping. Additionally, even muting or adjusting the system volume results in no change to the volume until I restart the display by unplugging/plugging it.
> 
> Even using a short 2.5mm stereo cable close to the main unit itself makes no difference. This just isn't working out.
> 
> Thanks for your help with this guys but I've lost faith in this product given JBL haven't yet responded still and other users are experiencing difficulties from time to time with their displays freezing up. It just doesn't fill me with confidence and I'm going to have to redo my stack with an alternative unit.
> 
> Maybe I'm just unlucky with this one unit but being outside of warranty, I'd rather spend my money on something that gives me a little more control in terms of at least an EQ for each channel rather than a single EQ for all channels.


Well, I'd suggest calling customer service and explaining that you just got around to installing one that is now out of warranty. Explain what the unit does and ask for them to replace it anyway.

MS-8's auto EQ matches the channels with a separate EQ for each location: front left, front right, center, side left, side right, rear left, rear right, center and sub. There are 8 ouptut EQs, two input EQs and a 31-band EQ that you can adjust. There's no need to provide separate 31-band EQs that you can use to match the channels, because that's already done in the Auto EQ.


----------



## bfrance

Andy,

I'm needing a new ms-8 display cable so I can get my install started in my new car (a friend pulled my equipment from my old car I sold him and he destroyed the display cable.) I called JBL parts and they didn't have an eta on when this would be available. Any ideas on another cable that might work/be compatible?

Thanks,

-Ben


----------



## kaigoss69

beemarman said:


> BL –MS8 connection:
> 
> Output 1: FL connected to JL HD 600/4 (4 inch Rainbow component with crossover)
> 
> Output 2: FR connected to JL HD 600/4 (4 inch Rainbow component with crossover)
> 
> Output 6: FL JL HD 600/4 (OEM underseat woofer )
> 
> Output 7: FR JL HD 600/4 (OEM underseat woofer)
> 
> Output 5: Centre – JBL internal amp (OEM center speaker)
> 
> Output 3: RL JBL internal amp (OEM Rear)
> 
> Output 4: RR JBL Internal amp (OEM Rear)
> 
> Output 8: sub JL 750/1 (2 10inch 10w3v3 subs)
> 
> Can somebody advise me on how I set-up the MS8 for the above? I want to know what crossover to set the fronts, Midbass, Centre and subs at.
> 
> 
> Thanks for all your help.


What Andy said, plus I'd recommend to set the amp gains on the 600/4 to 12 o'clock and minimum on the 750/1. Listen for the sweeps and make sure the volume is about the same for each channel (except the sub). Calibration volume around -25 db to -30 db. 

I'd highly recommend you set it up without a sub first and don't bring the sub in until you've got everything else dialed in.


----------



## 14642

bfrance said:


> Andy,
> 
> I'm needing a new ms-8 display cable so I can get my install started in my new car (a friend pulled my equipment from my old car I sold him and he destroyed the display cable.) I called JBL parts and they didn't have an eta on when this would be available. Any ideas on another cable that might work/be compatible?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Ben


Unfortunately, it isn't a standard cable. If you have the ends, you can splice another shielded cable to them, but if not, then you'll have to get one from JBL.


----------



## t3sn4f2

beemarman said:


> BL –MS8 connection:
> 
> Output 1: FL connected to JL HD 600/4 (4 inch Rainbow component with crossover)
> 
> Output 2: FR connected to JL HD 600/4 (4 inch Rainbow component with crossover)
> 
> Output 6: FL JL HD 600/4 (OEM underseat woofer )
> 
> Output 7: FR JL HD 600/4 (OEM underseat woofer)
> 
> Output 5: Centre – JBL internal amp (OEM center speaker)
> 
> Output 3: RL JBL internal amp (OEM Rear)
> 
> Output 4: RR JBL Internal amp (OEM Rear)
> 
> Output 8: sub JL 750/1 (2 10inch 10w3v3 subs)
> 
> Can somebody advise me on how I set-up the MS8 for the above? I want to know what crossover to set the fronts, Midbass, Centre and subs at.
> 
> 
> Thanks for all your help.





t3sn4f2 said:


> Which car and OEM system? What type of center channel? Size, quality, design (ie fullrange, midrange, mid tweeter, etc.)





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Looks like a BMW to me.
> 
> Sub: 1
> Subsonic filter: 20Hz, 12dB/octave
> Sub/Front Xover: 70Hz, 24dB/octave
> Front: 2-way
> Front low/high crossover: 150Hz, 24dB/octave
> Side: 1 way,
> Side Crossover: 100Hz
> Center: 1 way
> Center crossover: 150Hz


tooootally missed the "underseat" part. :blush:


----------



## chofilena

I need some advice on my set-up and my speaker locations. I have a 2011 ford fiesta hatch and I'm now using a 2 way component speaker for the fronts with a 4.7 cap between them and running 1-way on the MS-8 (woofer- stock location door and tweets are mounted 3 inches higher of the woofer, door). I have a center, rear, side and a sub so all channels on the MS-8 is being used. As of now its sounds great but I'm curious how a 3-way component system would sound like. So I'll be removing the rear speakers and run 2-way on the MS-8 have a cap between the tweeters and the mids and set the x-over at 200hz with the woofer. Which do you guys think is a better location for my tweets and mids (take note woofer will still be on the stock location, doors) Dashboard, kick panels or doors? note: tweets and mids will be installed together except for the woofer if mounted on the dash.


----------



## elmn8r

I'm having issues with the initial install of my MS-8. I have a 2012 Ford F-150 Platinum with the Sony NAV/Ford SYNC factory system. I'm testing out the initial wiring to the MS-8 and I'm having issues with it continuously power cycling. I have the 12v power connected and I'm getting 13.6v steady to the MS-8. I have it grounded directly to a factory body ground point for the power rear window motor. I have the remote turn on trigger fed from the factory remote turn on that goes to the Sony amp underneath the console. I'm getting 2.29-2.36v on the remote trigger. I have the display plugged in as well. Nothing else is connected to the MS-8.

The behavior I'm getting is as follows: When I turn the key on or start the truck, the blue light comes on, I get a please wait message on the screen of the display, the please wait message goes away, and then the blue light goes off. About five seconds later the whole process starts over again - light, message, light off.


Does anyone have any ideas? Thought I'd run it by you guys before calling JBL support tomorrow.


----------



## kaigoss69

elmn8r said:


> I'm getting 2.29-2.36v on the remote trigger


MS-8 needs 12V trigger.


----------



## elmn8r

Ah, simple answer. Thanks Kaigoss.


----------



## The Max

kaigoss69 said:


> MS-8 needs 12V trigger.


Actually, it needs a minimum of 4V and it seems that the measured value falls just on the outer edge of that range, which is why it sometimes triggers and sometimes doesn't.

Nevertheless, aim for a 12V accessories feed if a more appropriate feed from the stereo itself isn't possible and all will be well.


----------



## The Max

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well, I'd suggest calling customer service and explaining that you just got around to installing one that is now out of warranty. Explain what the unit does and ask for them to replace it anyway.


I appreciate the reply but that would mean having to ship it to the US and get another one shipped to me which would probably also be at my expense.

I've bitten the bullet and put those costings towards an Arc Audio PS8 instead. I saw a demonstration unit, heard the results on a similarly configured system and that was enough to convince me that the MS-8 just isn't worth persevering with nor does it really give me the flexibility I think I need. :worried:



> MS-8's auto EQ matches the channels with a separate EQ for each location:
> 
> There's no need to provide separate 31-band EQs that you can use to match the channels, because that's already done in the Auto EQ.


I see what you're saying there but that's putting way too much faith in what the microphones are hearing against what I'm hearing and that's where we'll have to agree to disagree. As much automation as I find in the broadcast systems I work with, there's always a need for total control over the adjustments after the fact. I guess I've been spoiled by that school.

Don't get me wrong, the concept is great and it's what had me sold at the beginning though I misled myself into thinking that I still had a decent amount of control over how the sound gets flavoured in the vehicle. In the end though, I do like to have complete control over my gear, be it audio, video or photo. Maybe I'm an adjustment-crazed cretin but in the end, this unit really isn't for me.

Again, thanks for trying to help me out.


----------



## doeboy

I am running a set of DLS UP36i active in my car and I am not sure what the best setting for the crossovers should be. Ultimate UP36i - 3-way, 6,5 inches component

Woofer size	16,5 cm (6,5")
Midrange size	63 mm (2,5")
Tweeter	UP1i, 28 mm (1,1") silk dome tweeter
Power handling capacity	150 W RMS / 180 W max
Impedance	4 ohm
Frequency range	50 - 20.000 Hz
Sensitivity	88 dB (1W/1m)
Crossover	Filter box with 12/6/6 dB slope
Crossover point (Hz)	500 Hz / 5000 Hz
Size of filter box	145 x 95 x 45 mm ( 5,71 x 3,74 x 1,77")
Outer diameter of woofer	Woofer: 165 mm (6,5") Mid: 100 mm (3,94")
Magnet size	62 mm (2,44") Hybrid ferrit/neodymium
Mounting depth	Woofer: 63 mm ( 2,48") Mid: 25 mm (1")
Mounting hole	Woofer: 140 mm (5,5") Mid: 82 mm (3,23")

The mid is on the dash and the woofer+tweeter are low on the door right by each other.


----------



## subwoofery

doeboy said:


> I am running a set of DLS UP36i active in my car and I am not sure what the best setting for the crossovers should be. Ultimate UP36i - 3-way, 6,5 inches component
> 
> Woofer size	16,5 cm (6,5")
> Midrange size	63 mm (2,5")
> Tweeter	UP1i, 28 mm (1,1") silk dome tweeter
> Power handling capacity	150 W RMS / 180 W max
> Impedance	4 ohm
> Frequency range	50 - 20.000 Hz
> Sensitivity	88 dB (1W/1m)
> Crossover	Filter box with 12/6/6 dB slope
> Crossover point (Hz)	500 Hz / 5000 Hz
> Size of filter box	145 x 95 x 45 mm ( 5,71 x 3,74 x 1,77")
> Outer diameter of woofer	Woofer: 165 mm (6,5") Mid: 100 mm (3,94")
> Magnet size	62 mm (2,44") Hybrid ferrit/neodymium
> Mounting depth	Woofer: 63 mm ( 2,48") Mid: 25 mm (1")
> Mounting hole	Woofer: 140 mm (5,5") Mid: 82 mm (3,23")
> 
> The mid is on the dash and the woofer+tweeter are low on the door right by each other.


Can't recommend which Xover point to use but I can recommend what Xover point not to use  

Midbass: HP lower than 63Hz is unecessary, 80Hz works well with the MS-8 - play with the slope for better integration. 
LP is up to you 
Midrange: HP no lower than 500Hz 12dB/oct slope - 630Hz 24dB/oct should work well, can even try higher
LP is up to you 
Tweeter: HP no lower than 3.6kHz - DLS recommends 4kHz-5kHz 

Please note that the above is just theoretical - all also depends on your available power... 

Kelvin


----------



## chofilena

Any suggestions on a 3-way speaker mounting location that works best for the ms-8. Tweeter and mid- dashboard, doors or kick panels? Woofer on the stock location (doors)


----------



## subwoofery

Woofer under the seat or in the stock door location 
Midrange high in the door 
Tweeter in the sail panel 

Kelvin


----------



## chofilena

subwoofery said:


> Woofer under the seat or in the stock door location
> Midrange high in the door
> Tweeter in the sail panel
> 
> Kelvin


So it will be the same set up as my 2-way system only the tweeter will be higher. Will a 3-way system make a big difference on SQ? Is it worth the effort and customizing the doors?


----------



## subwoofery

chofilena said:


> So it will be the same set up as my 2-way system only the tweeter will be higher. Will a 3-way system make a big difference on SQ? Is it worth the effort and customizing the doors?


Going from a 2-way to a 3-way is up to the end user... 

Some say it's more difficult to tune a 3-way system than a 2-way system. I've been tuning 3-way systems for a while and actually find it easier now than a 2-way :surprised:

I say it's worth it if someone can help you setup and tune your sytem. 

Kelvin


----------



## chofilena

I'm looking at the doors on how I could install my midrange. And I have a big problem, my steering wheel is covering a big portion of the door. What will be your second option on the speaker location? In case I decide to go 3-way will you help me with the installation?


----------



## avanti1960

chofilena said:


> So it will be the same set up as my 2-way system only the tweeter will be higher. Will a 3-way system make a big difference on SQ? Is it worth the effort and customizing the doors?


personally i believe it is worth the effort. i drilled a big 3-inch hole in my door panels in the top front corner (just below the sail panels) for mounting the midrange driver- in a big commitment to the 3-way system. \

imho a standard 2-way system with midbass down low and tweeter up high can sound very good but is a compromise in many ways. midbass drivers struggle with reproducing their upper frequencies with clarity and off axis dispersion. tweeters don't sound their best at their lowest limits. 
a 3-way with the midrange and tweeters mounted high, forward and close to each other brings the majority of the directional frequency spectrum up away from the obstructions that are present in the path of lower door mounted drivers. 
the end result is a clarity and presence, especially in the vocal range, that is not possible with a 2-way system. voices and instruments tend to be more distinct and separated in the music- more lifelike. a strong bass presence does not overly color or block the clarity of higher frequencies. 2-way systems tend to reduce clarity of vocals- there is always this warm sounding coloration that prevents them from being open and distinct. 
go for it if you value a life-like SQ.


----------



## bfrance

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Unfortunately, it isn't a standard cable. If you have the ends, you can splice another shielded cable to them, but if not, then you'll have to get one from JBL.


Thanks Andy,

I guess I'll just wait until it shows back in stock. 

-Ben


----------



## chofilena

Will it be ok if the steering wheel is blocking the speaker? I tried sitting on the front passenger side and I can't even see the speaker. How would you guys suggest on wireing my system? 
Set-up 1:
Output 1 tweeter R (CDT DRT25) RCA ROCKFORD FOSGATE T400
Output 2 tweeter L
Output 3 midrange R ( CDT ES03) RCA T400
Output 4 midrange L
Output 5 woofer R ( CDT ES600) RCA Rockford FOSGATE P400
Output 6 woofer L 
Output 7 Center ( MB quart QM 100) RCA BRIDGED P400
Output 8 sub. (TC subs) RCA RF T500

Or 
Set-up 2
Output 1 tweeter and midrange with a capacitor L (RF T400)
Output 2 tweeter and mid R
Output 3 woofer L (RF P400) bridged
Output 4 woofer R
Output 5 side L (MS-8)
Output 6 side R
Output 7 Center (RF T400 bridged)
Output 8 sub (RF T500)

Please suggest if there is a better option. Thanks for the big help. 
Nice to hear from you again Andy


----------



## Golden Ear

Are you asking if you should use rear fill?


----------



## cabro

Just wondering if I could get some advice on my settings before I get some time with an RTA and start messing with the EQ.

I pretty much left the MS-8 settings to the defaults except I changed the Xover on the front from 3500/24dB to 2500/12dB and turned off Logic 7. All filters on the amp are turned off and gains set to 2V.

So far it's sounding really good but I find the mid range a little lacking and the tweeters a little harsh. I've also played around with hooking and unhooking the back fill (always recalibrating each time) to see if I need it or not and i'm up in the air at the moment. Overall, I would like to get the system sounding a little warmer.

System:

Front
Hertz MLK 165
Freq Resp. 35-25K
Xover 2.5kHz @ 12/12dB Oct.

Rear
Hertz HCX 165
Freq Resp. 50-22K
Xover 4kHz @ 6dB Oct.

Sub
Audiobahn 10" AW1000Q (soon to be replaced)
Freq Resp. 23-500hz

MS-8 Settings

Sub (1) Subsonic Filter 20Hz/12dB
Sub/Front Xover 80Hz/24dB
Front (2-Way) 2500/12dB
Center (None)
Side (1-way) 50Hz/24dB
Rear (None)

Thanks!


----------



## chofilena

Golden Ear said:


> Are you asking if you should use rear fill?


Yes, Which would be a better set-up for SQ? And is their a better install that you guys would recommend. Thanks.


----------



## 14642

Use the rear speakers and use logic7. It works without a center.


----------



## cabro

cabro said:


> Just wondering if I could get some advice on my settings before I get some time with an RTA and start messing with the EQ.
> 
> I pretty much left the MS-8 settings to the defaults except I changed the Xover on the front from 3500/24dB to 2500/12dB and turned off Logic 7. All filters on the amp are turned off and gains set to 2V.
> 
> So far it's sounding really good but I find the mid range a little lacking and the tweeters a little harsh. I've also played around with hooking and unhooking the back fill (always recalibrating each time) to see if I need it or not and i'm up in the air at the moment. Overall, I would like to get the system sounding a little warmer.
> 
> System:
> 
> Front
> Hertz MLK 165
> Freq Resp. 35-25K
> Xover 2.5kHz @ 12/12dB Oct.
> 
> Rear
> Hertz HCX 165
> Freq Resp. 50-22K
> Xover 4kHz @ 6dB Oct.
> 
> Sub
> Audiobahn 10" AW1000Q (soon to be replaced)
> Freq Resp. 23-500hz
> 
> MS-8 Settings
> 
> Sub (1) Subsonic Filter 20Hz/12dB
> Sub/Front Xover 80Hz/24dB
> Front (2-Way) 2500/12dB
> Center (None)
> Side (1-way) 50Hz/24dB
> Rear (None)
> 
> Thanks!


Bump


----------



## chofilena

chofilena said:


> Will it be ok if the steering wheel is blocking the speaker? I tried sitting on the front passenger side and I can't even see the speaker. How would you guys suggest on wireing my system?
> Set-up 1:
> Output 1 tweeter R (CDT DRT25) RCA ROCKFORD FOSGATE T400
> Output 2 tweeter L
> Output 3 midrange R ( CDT ES03) RCA T400
> Output 4 midrange L
> Output 5 woofer R ( CDT ES600) RCA Rockford FOSGATE P400
> Output 6 woofer L
> Output 7 Center ( MB quart QM 100) RCA BRIDGED P400
> Output 8 sub. (TC subs) RCA RF T500
> 
> Or
> Set-up 2
> Output 1 tweeter and midrange with a capacitor L (RF T400)
> Output 2 tweeter and mid R
> Output 3 woofer L (RF P400) bridged
> Output 4 woofer R
> Output 5 side L (MS-8)
> Output 6 side R
> Output 7 Center (RF T400 bridged)
> Output 8 sub (RF T500)
> 
> Please suggest if there is a better option. Thanks for the big help.
> Hi Andy, any suggestions. Thanks


----------



## slpery

OK, I want a bit more midbass. (I know, I know):bigcry:
I've found a few things in here that say to disconnect the subs when configuring. Is that correct? When you plug the subs back in, wouldn't the TA be different for them?

My set up:
ch1 - L tweeter 6000hz @24
ch2 - L mid 250-6000hz @24
ch3 - L midbass 70-250 @24

ch4 - R tweeter 6000hz @24
ch5 - R mid 250-6000hz @24
ch6 - R midbass 70-250 @24

ch7 - sub [email protected]
ch8 - sub [email protected]

My 2 subs are IB, therefore share the same airspace, would it make a difference running them off 1 channel compared to 2? (i.e. stereo sub bass cancellation)


----------



## subwoofery

slpery said:


> OK, I want a bit more midbass. (I know, I know):bigcry:
> I've found a few things in here that say to disconnect the subs when configuring. Is that correct? When you plug the subs back in, wouldn't the TA be different for them?
> 
> My set up:
> ch1 - L tweeter 6000hz @24
> ch2 - L mid 250-6000hz @24
> ch3 - L midbass 70-250 @24
> 
> ch4 - R tweeter 6000hz @24
> ch5 - R mid 250-6000hz @24
> ch6 - R midbass 70-250 @24
> 
> ch7 - sub [email protected]
> ch8 - sub [email protected]
> 
> My 2 subs are IB, therefore share the same airspace, would it make a difference running them off 1 channel compared to 2? (i.e. stereo sub bass cancellation)


If you need more midbass, try a different setting before calibrating (play with levels and/or crossover point and slope) or use the 31 band EQ. 
The MS-8 doesn't add any T/A on the subwoofer - none 
Most tracks doesn't have stereo subbass information, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. 

Kelvin


----------



## ousooner2

*Quick & Easy Questions...Hopefully*

Hey guys, I've had the MS-8 in my setup for a year or so now, but I've never really dialed it in and learned exactly the best way to use it. My results after calibrating are all over the place at times. Too much or too little midbass, same with bass, stage too far to the left, etc. So I'll ask a few questions and hopefully I can become a little more happy with my setup as I'm growing a little bored. 

1. After running through the channel assignment (FL High, FL Mid, etc)....it allows you to use test tones. What would you all suggest these tones be at for calibrating with the MS-8 headphones? I never know if the tones that come through the tweeters/mids/sub are too loud or too soft. I just never know what level to run the auto-calibration (-25db, -40db, etc??)

I know the sub isn't supposed to be that loud, but I can't ever seem to get it to blend perfect as it always needs to be turned up or down too much. 

2. When running a setup disk like Autosound, etc...there is 1 track that has 7 snare drum beats across the stage. The first 2 are FAR left. Basically the farthest left of the stage. The next is barely more towards the center, and that 4th it jumps to the center. The 5th through 7th are somewhat space to the right, but the 6th and 7th are sometimes also FAR right (as far right stage as possible). Is there anything I can do to get the stage to spread out?

3. I have adjustable phase on my sub (from 0 all the way to 180 degrees; not just one or the other)...what's the best way to get my phase somewhat correct to get the best up front bass? 

4. Next question is regarding crossover points. I've tried a 2800/24db crossover (I'm running a 2-way with ID cx62's and the xs28 tweeters) and I've tried 4kHz/24db as I've heard that this car likes a higher crossover point. For my low end I'm usually crossing the mids at 75 or 80 on a 24db slope. Do you think I can go higher for a little more up front bass? There are times where the bass is in the center of the dash and solid, but it can also be sloppy at times and pull back. Sometimes the stage will pull down to the doors also (possibly from hearing rattling in the doors, but who knows. I've deadened the crap out of the doors but this Acura seems to hate me).


----------



## Redmist

Hi guys...just thought I'd post about my recent positive experience with the MS-8...

Having picked up a new Subaru BRZ a while back, I decided that I would do my first DIY install. My last few cars had been done by local installers that had cut corners, overcharged and generally shown a lack of competence.

When choosing a DSP, the MS-8 appealed because of my lack of experience in tuning. Also, the tutorials I've seen on tuning are all a bit vague and required additional expensive equipment and a lot of time. My main background is home audio and I'd seen and heard just what modern Audyssey auto-tuning is capable of so I figured I'd give car auto-tuning a chance. I'm an engineering-minded person and I'm sure that I'm more than capable of mastering a BitOne or a PS8 but sometimes you have to pick your battles and I'm not intending to compete.

The MS-8 has virtually no commercial presence here in Australia and gets nothing but blank looks from car audio retailers so I decided to order from Amazon. It was almost half the price that the local JBL distributor quoted - disgraceful really.

Going with active DSP obviously means not being tied to 'car audio' speakers so I started looking around for raw drivers and decided on the Scanspeak Revelator 6.5" and the SB Acoustics SB29RDNC tweeters. As I was intending to use the stock locations, I was tempted to go with some exotic widebanders on the dash but after reading Andy's disparaging comments and wanting to keep it simple, decided against it. I also figured that I could add them later if I was dissatisfied.

After taking my time with the install and making sure that everything was deadened and/or decoupled, I finally got around to doing the calibration. For some reason, the result was not great. The highs were very 'swishy' and forced me to spend a bit of time with the EQ trying to fix it. The result was pretty good but didn't blow me away. I was slightly disappointed.

The next day I decided to try again and this time, everything sounded 'right' straight away. Virtually no EQ needed! Maybe I'd put the mics on the wrong way around in the passenger seat the first time - not sure. I was hoping for Audyssey-like sound in my car and that's exactly what the MS-8 was delivering. Crisp, clean, pin-point highs, accurate vocals and tight, clean, extended bass.

I decided to add the Alpine V12 amp and Type-R sub box from my old car as a temporary measure until I get something more compact and suitable for the BRZ...maybe a JL Stealthbox. The tweeters are still being powered by the MS-8 and sound fine. I'm using 70Hz and 2700Hz @ 24dB for the crossovers and I can get pretty ridiculous volume without any signs of distortion. Naturally, the sub sounds much more accurate than it ever did in my old 'DSP-less' system too.

I tend to use the 'Loudness' control on a head unit to preserve my hearing and compensate for road noise and that seems to work fine with the MS-8 so I really have no complaints. My commutes just got a whole lot more enjoyable. Thanks to the JBL team on a stellar product.


----------



## ZAKOH

Is there any sort of consensus on what's the best type of center channel speaker to use? I am specially wondering what would you install in the center channel locations that fire from the dash at the windshield window. Those factory speakers are often tiny, like 3 inches. First thing that worries me is the distortion resulting from sending the center channel signal to such small speaker. Second, who makes good speaker for such location? There are extremely few coaxial speakers of this size, and most suffer from typical issues of a coaxial speaker, such as extremely primitive passive crossover. The choice if windeband drivers seems broader, but I worry that their sound will suffer from poor dispersion off axis.


----------



## subwoofery

KEF Ci80.2QR (white)(each) [Ci80.2QR] - $90.44 : New Audio & Video, New Electronics at Lowest Prices! 
Free passive Xover 

Kelvin


----------



## bbfoto

EDIT: Kelvin, you always come up with some nice drivers, man! That looks great. The only problem I see is mounting depth might be an issue in most of the typical center channel locations. It would be cool to see how a LRC setup performs with these in the sail panels or A-Pillars like Erin's Civic. 

Per Andy, the ideal center channel speaker should be the same as the L&R Mid & Tweeter. Obviously that isn't possible without major mods in most vehicles, so as large and/or low-playing as possible. I think you'll want a mid+tweeter instead of a wideband, especially if it'll be aimed straight up/bouncing off the windshield. Just my .02. There's much more concise and detailed information on this subject if you're willing to read more of this thread.


----------



## tbomb

Have searched through the piles of info and dont see my issue addressed. I would like to run 3-way active front stage, Center, "sides", and sub. All powered by the MS-8 (other than sub of course). Anything wrong with setting up as a "subless" and just adding sub amp with speaker level inputs? The sub amp is JBL MS-a5001 powering Dayton Ref HO10".

In fact i could hook the sub amp to stock HU and use the RCA output to send signal to MS-8. So I am thinking I could just setup MS-8 with sub disconnected then dial in the sub as needed.


----------



## t3sn4f2

tbomb said:


> Have searched through the piles of info and dont see my issue addressed. I would like to run 3-way active front stage, Center, "sides", and sub. All powered by the MS-8 (other than sub of course). Anything wrong with setting up as a "subless" and just adding sub amp with speaker level inputs? The sub amp is JBL MS-a5001 powering Dayton Ref HO10".
> 
> In fact i could hook the sub amp to stock HU and use the RCA output to send signal to MS-8. So I am thinking I could just setup MS-8 with sub disconnected then dial in the sub as needed.


Even without the sub, that is still one too many.


----------



## tbomb

ha, crap you're right


----------



## tbomb

guess I'll just put a cap on the tweeters. Seems like my only option


----------



## subwoofery

bbfoto said:


> EDIT: Kelvin, you always come up with some nice drivers, man! That looks great. The only problem I see is mounting depth might be an issue in most of the typical center channel locations. It would be cool to see how a LRC setup performs with these in the sail panels or A-Pillars like Erin's Civic.
> 
> Per Andy, the ideal center channel speaker should be the same as the L&R Mid & Tweeter. Obviously that isn't possible without major mods in most vehicles, so as large and/or low-playing as possible. I think you'll want a mid+tweeter instead of a wideband, especially if it'll be aimed straight up/bouncing off the windshield. Just my .02. There's much more concise and detailed information on this subject if you're willing to read more of this thread.


Regarding the mounting depth that's really true... It's even deeper than some 6.5" midbasses. However, you might not find a better coax for the price... If you can cut the dash to make it fit (depth wise), from what I've seen, they work great IB due to their high Qts (enclosed Kef drivers have a Qts in the 1.x) 

Other infos from your post are also correct 

Kelvin


----------



## ZAKOH

tbomb said:


> Have searched through the piles of info and dont see my issue addressed. I would like to run 3-way active front stage, Center, "sides", and sub. All powered by the MS-8 (other than sub of course). Anything wrong with setting up as a "subless" and just adding sub amp with speaker level inputs?


If you use a passive crossover or an amplifier's built-in active crossover connecting to a pair of speakers of each front side, then you will have just enough JBL-MS-8 channels to manage all speakers. Of course, the problem is that MS-8 will not have the ability to level match those pairs of speakers with each other individually or adjust time alignment. It's probably not a big deal for speakers that are very close to each other. You can try level matching by ear or RTA. This seems like a major limitation of MS-8 as there are not cars coming with 10+ speaker systems. They need to come up with a MS-10.


----------



## 14642

If you use a passive crossover between the mids and tweeters of the front speakers, you'll have enough channels. MS-8 will use EQ to match the level of the tweeters to the level of the mids. It won't be able to time align the mids and tweeters separately, but so long as they are mounted pretty close together, it'll work fine.


----------



## jfkaiser

Hi Andy,
Thanks again for all your contributions to this forum!

I would like to ask your opinion on my best setup for the following scenario:

Currently I am running the MS8 in 5.1/L7 using this method:

Front Left 6.5" Powered by Alpine 75watts
Front Left Tweeter powered by MS8

Front CENTER channel is a 6.5" and separate tweeter 
(passive crossover) and powered by Alpine 75watts

Front Right 6.5" powered by Alpine 75 watts
Front Right tweeter powered by MS8

Left Rear speaker+ Left Rear Deck speaker (Wired in Parallel-Total 2ohms) powered by MS8

Right Rear speaker+ Right Rear Deck speaker (Wired in Parallel-Total 2ohms) powered by MS8

Sub Powered by the Alpine Sub output 300watts

---------------------------new 7.1 config---------------------------
basically gets me two more MS8 channels to be able to run 7.1... * BUT forces me to use passive crossovers for the Front Left and Front Right*
Note: I understand with THIS setup that I may have to cover/disconnect the Front L and R Tweeters during the sweeps to be sure the MS8 locates the Front L and R 6.5's correctly

Front LEFT channel would be a 6.5" and separate tweeter 
(passive crossover) and powered by Alpine 75watts

Front CENTER channel is a 6.5" and separate tweeter 
(passive crossover) and powered by Alpine 75watts

Front RIGHT channel would be a 6.5" and separate tweeter 
(passive crossover) and powered by Alpine 75watts

Left Rear speaker powered by MS8
Left Rear Deck speaker powered by MS8

Right Rear speaker powered by MS8
Right Rear Deck speaker powered by MS8

Sub Powered by the Alpine Sub output 300watts


----------



## quietfly

subwoofery said:


> Regarding the mounting depth that's really true... It's even deeper than some 6.5" midbasses. However, you might not find a better coax for the price... If you can cut the dash to make it fit (depth wise), from what I've seen, they work great IB due to their high Qts (enclosed Kef drivers have a Qts in the 1.x)
> 
> Other infos from your post are also correct
> 
> Kelvin


Great find on those KEF's Kelvin, these might temp me to try the point source route...


----------



## tbomb

Would a 5.1 mfd cap suffice? Should work out to 5500hz at 6db. The mids are 3" dayton reference, figured i could let them naturally roll off. or could buy a couple coils, but trying not to spend even more money if not necessary.


----------



## subwoofery

quietfly said:


> Great find on those KEF's Kelvin, these might temp me to try the point source route...


I have space for a slightly bigger driver (5") but yeah, for the price, they are worth trying IMO... One thing to note, KEF's passive Xover point is actually not that far from what you should use. Erin and another member uses a pair of R300 and KEF's passive has a Xover point of 2.8kHz - Both active setups ended up with a 3kHz Xover point (Erin used 12dB/oct slope and the other member ended up with 18dB/oct slope). So in my opinion, for a center channel, passive is fine 

Kelvin


----------



## ousooner2

*Re: Quick & Easy Questions...Hopefully*



ousooner2 said:


> Hey guys, I've had the MS-8 in my setup for a year or so now, but I've never really dialed it in and learned exactly the best way to use it. My results after calibrating are all over the place at times. Too much or too little midbass, same with bass, stage too far to the left, etc. So I'll ask a few questions and hopefully I can become a little more happy with my setup as I'm growing a little bored.
> 
> 1. After running through the channel assignment (FL High, FL Mid, etc)....it allows you to use test tones. What would you all suggest these tones be at for calibrating with the MS-8 headphones? I never know if the tones that come through the tweeters/mids/sub are too loud or too soft. I just never know what level to run the auto-calibration (-25db, -40db, etc??)
> 
> I know the sub isn't supposed to be that loud, but I can't ever seem to get it to blend perfect as it always needs to be turned up or down too much.
> 
> 2. When running a setup disk like Autosound, etc...there is 1 track that has 7 snare drum beats across the stage. The first 2 are FAR left. Basically the farthest left of the stage. The next is barely more towards the center, and that 4th it jumps to the center. The 5th through 7th are somewhat space to the right, but the 6th and 7th are sometimes also FAR right (as far right stage as possible). Is there anything I can do to get the stage to spread out?
> 
> 3. I have adjustable phase on my sub (from 0 all the way to 180 degrees; not just one or the other)...what's the best way to get my phase somewhat correct to get the best up front bass?
> 
> 4. Next question is regarding crossover points. I've tried a 2800/24db crossover (I'm running a 2-way with ID cx62's and the xs28 tweeters) and I've tried 4kHz/24db as I've heard that this car likes a higher crossover point. For my low end I'm usually crossing the mids at 75 or 80 on a 24db slope. Do you think I can go higher for a little more up front bass? There are times where the bass is in the center of the dash and solid, but it can also be sloppy at times and pull back. Sometimes the stage will pull down to the doors also (possibly from hearing rattling in the doors, but who knows. I've deadened the crap out of the doors but this Acura seems to hate me).


:blush:


----------



## kaigoss69

*Re: Quick & Easy Questions...Hopefully*



ousooner2 said:


> Hey guys, I've had the MS-8 in my setup for a year or so now, but I've never really dialed it in and learned exactly the best way to use it. My results after calibrating are all over the place at times. Too much or too little midbass, same with bass, stage too far to the left, etc. So I'll ask a few questions and hopefully I can become a little more happy with my setup as I'm growing a little bored.
> 
> 1. After running through the channel assignment (FL High, FL Mid, etc)....it allows you to use test tones. What would you all suggest these tones be at for calibrating with the MS-8 headphones? I never know if the tones that come through the tweeters/mids/sub are too loud or too soft. I just never know what level to run the auto-calibration (-25db, -40db, etc??)
> 
> *The absolute level is not so important. Imagine someone talking next to you and if the sweeps are about the same or a bit less, it is fine. What is important IMHO however are the relative levels between the individual sweeps, especially if you are using more a lot of channels. Make sure all sweeps, except the sub, are about the same level. *
> 
> I know the sub isn't supposed to be that loud, but I can't ever seem to get it to blend perfect as it always needs to be turned up or down too much.
> 
> *For the sub, set the gain to minimum during calibration. If you can still feel it during calibration, reduce the volume and try again. Sometimes a few clicks of cal volume make a huge difference in sub output! Also, try to open the ski-pass or fold down the seats during calibration, it helped for me.*
> 
> 2. When running a setup disk like Autosound, etc...there is 1 track that has 7 snare drum beats across the stage. The first 2 are FAR left. Basically the farthest left of the stage. The next is barely more towards the center, and that 4th it jumps to the center. The 5th through 7th are somewhat space to the right, but the 6th and 7th are sometimes also FAR right (as far right stage as possible). Is there anything I can do to get the stage to spread out?
> 
> *I'm not smart enough to answer this question, but it may help if you ran side speakers in the rear doors as the help to spread the stage.*
> 
> 3. I have adjustable phase on my sub (from 0 all the way to 180 degrees; not just one or the other)...what's the best way to get my phase somewhat correct to get the best up front bass?
> 
> *This is what I would do, others may have other ideas. I would use an SPL meter (or iPhone app) to measure SPL at the crossover frequency in the listening position. So if you have it crossed at 70Hz, play a 70Hz test tone. Then adjust the knob until it reads the loudest, that should be the setting where midbass and sub are in phase (at the listening position). Then recalibrate and fine tune by ear if necessary.*
> 
> 
> 4. Next question is regarding crossover points. I've tried a 2800/24db crossover (I'm running a 2-way with ID cx62's and the xs28 tweeters) and I've tried 4kHz/24db as I've heard that this car likes a higher crossover point. For my low end I'm usually crossing the mids at 75 or 80 on a 24db slope. Do you think I can go higher for a little more up front bass? There are times where the bass is in the center of the dash and solid, but it can also be sloppy at times and pull back. Sometimes the stage will pull down to the doors also (possibly from hearing rattling in the doors, but who knows. I've deadened the crap out of the doors but this Acura seems to hate me).
> 
> *I would let the tweeters and midbass play as low as they can. I think once you get the sub better integrated by doing 1 and 3 above, this may be a non-issue.*


Good luck!


----------



## 14642

jfkaiser said:


> Hi Andy,
> Thanks again for all your contributions to this forum!
> 
> I would like to ask your opinion on my best setup for the following scenario:
> 
> Currently I am running the MS8 in 5.1/L7 using this method:
> 
> Front Left 6.5" Powered by Alpine 75watts
> Front Left Tweeter powered by MS8
> 
> Front CENTER channel is a 6.5" and separate tweeter
> (passive crossover) and powered by Alpine 75watts
> 
> Front Right 6.5" powered by Alpine 75 watts
> Front Right tweeter powered by MS8
> 
> Left Rear speaker+ Left Rear Deck speaker (Wired in Parallel-Total 2ohms) powered by MS8
> 
> Right Rear speaker+ Right Rear Deck speaker (Wired in Parallel-Total 2ohms) powered by MS8
> 
> Sub Powered by the Alpine Sub output 300watts
> 
> ---------------------------new 7.1 config---------------------------
> basically gets me two more MS8 channels to be able to run 7.1... * BUT forces me to use passive crossovers for the Front Left and Front Right*
> Note: I understand with THIS setup that I may have to cover/disconnect the Front L and R Tweeters during the sweeps to be sure the MS8 locates the Front L and R 6.5's correctly
> 
> Front LEFT channel would be a 6.5" and separate tweeter
> (passive crossover) and powered by Alpine 75watts
> 
> Front CENTER channel is a 6.5" and separate tweeter
> (passive crossover) and powered by Alpine 75watts
> 
> Front RIGHT channel would be a 6.5" and separate tweeter
> (passive crossover) and powered by Alpine 75watts
> 
> Left Rear speaker powered by MS8
> Left Rear Deck speaker powered by MS8
> 
> Right Rear speaker powered by MS8
> Right Rear Deck speaker powered by MS8
> 
> Sub Powered by the Alpine Sub output 300watts


There's VERY little audible difference between 5.1 and 7.1. I suggest running the sides and rears in parallel and using 4 channels for the front, as you have been.


----------



## jfkaiser

Thanks so much for all the great guidance, Andy!
You just saved me several hours of rewiring and recabling.

Take Care!

Jon


----------



## avanti1960

ZAKOH said:


> Is there any sort of consensus on what's the best type of center channel speaker to use? I am specially wondering what would you install in the center channel locations that fire from the dash at the windshield window. Those factory speakers are often tiny, like 3 inches. First thing that worries me is the distortion resulting from sending the center channel signal to such small speaker. Second, who makes good speaker for such location? There are extremely few coaxial speakers of this size, and most suffer from typical issues of a coaxial speaker, such as extremely primitive passive crossover. The choice if windeband drivers seems broader, but I worry that their sound will suffer from poor dispersion off axis.


I had these in my last car- they had it all, bass down to 55 hz IB, clear well dispersed midrange and highs, and could take abuse.

Boston Acoustics SE85 240 Watts 5x7" 2 Way Coaxial Car Speakers 5" x 7" 6x8" 690283478896 | eBay


----------



## lakersfan1

bbfoto said:


> EDIT: Kelvin, you always come up with some nice drivers, man! That looks great. The only problem I see is mounting depth might be an issue in most of the typical center channel locations.


Depends on what the depth constraint is. In one instance, I used a mini solder torch to slowly melt plastic HVAC ducting underneath speakers to get an extra 1.5" of depth when trying to add A/D/S/ 4" component/coaxial to spots initially spec'd with a 2.5" paper tweeter. Metal obstructions are another issue altogether, and unless on an old car I probably wouldn't mess with it.


----------



## ZAKOH

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> There's VERY little audible difference between 5.1 and 7.1. I suggest running the sides and rears in parallel and using 4 channels for the front, as you have been.


I heard one reason 7.1 was invented is gaming. Some gamers wanted a finer directional resolution to pinpoint locations of enemies, etc.


----------



## elmn8r

MS-8 friends,

I need some help. I have searched this thread and the web and just haven't hit on the right answer yet.

I'm installing an MS-8 in my 2012 Ford Platinum truck with SYNC and Sony audio. I am feeding the MS-8 speaker level inputs from the front L/R and sub channels from the Sony amp. I'm running RCA's out of the MS-8 to a pair of JL Audio amps that power the front tweets/mids, center, rear fill right and left, and sub. I rerouted the remote turn on signal going to the factory Sony amp to first go to the MS-8 and then remote out of the MS-8 to the JL amps and the factory Sony amp.

The problem I'm having is turn on/off pops/thump. The only channels that are producing the pop/thump are the channels that are providing the speaker level inputs to the MS-8, ie front L/R and sub. I'm not getting the pop/thump on the center and rear channels. 

I've tested letting the factory amp come on and then powering up the MS-8 and cutting the power to the MS-8 before the Sony amp goes off and I get no pop/thump.

I've seen some swapping out their MS-8's for certain types of pop issues and others have used delays of some type. I know I can put a delay in to alleviate the turn on issue but what about the turn off? I've tried all three MS-8 turn-off delay settings(off, 2s, 5s) but none helped. Any advice/suggestions would be much appreciated.


----------



## Golden Ear

I'm also getting a turn-on pop out of my sub after I installed an alpine pdx-v9. I too hope someone has a solution.


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## vrdublu

Turn "on-off pops" are attributed to a voltage feedback from what I have read in the past.


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## elmn8r

Update on my situation. I pulled a new circuit from an open accessory slot in the fuse panel and ran that to the MS-8 remote turn on input. Doing so eliminated the turn OFF pops. I still have the turn on pops. I will be adding a low voltage delay "pop eliminator" to the circuit to alleviate the turn on pops.


----------



## chofilena

What do you guys think of the Cdt passive x-over with the tweeter image enhancers? Will this work with the MS–8? Would you suggest using this x-over and adding a set of tweeters on the A- pillars? Thanks.


----------



## subwoofery

chofilena said:


> What do you guys think of the Cdt passive x-over with the tweeter image enhancers? Will this work with the MS–8? Would you suggest using this x-over and adding a set of tweeters on the A- pillars? Thanks.


Where are your other speaker installed? 
Do you have a channel (amp) per speaker? = active setup

Kelvin


----------



## T3mpest

How good of a job does the ms-8 do at eliminating the stock crossover points? I have a bose setup right now and the sub doesn't seem to have any output below 30hz. I'd say it's crossed over at 40hz or so because by 20hz the cone doesn't even move anymore. If I wire in after the bose amp, which would be alot easier, can it still derive a full range preamp signal? If I wire in before the amp I'll lose the volume control on my HU because the bose amp handles the volume changes via a data line going to the amp, not be regulating preamp voltage at the HU.


----------



## chofilena

subwoofery said:


> Where are your other speaker installed?
> Do you have a channel (amp) per speaker? = active setup
> 
> Kelvin


The 2-way component speakers are mounted on the doors with a 4.7uf capacitor to make the mid/woofer and the tweeters ¬¬ blend in (MS-8 setting is full range). I’m powering them with the RF T400, 2 channels for the mid/woofer and the tweeters, the other 2 channels is being bridged to power a center speaker. 

I’m now going to try a 3 way component system by adding a CDT ES03 midrange to my existing system, and will be installing them in the kick panels. So I was wondering if I use the passive x-over CDT EX484 (Image tweeter ready X-over), I could install another tweeter on the A-pillars. As for the woofer I will install another amp to power them. So MS-8 will be set as 2-way, tweeter and midrange using the passive x-over to about 200hz as 1way and the woofer as the 2nd using the MS-8 active x-over. So will this work? Will I get a better SQ by installing another pair of tweeters on the A-pillars? How do I go about time alignment with the MS-8?


----------



## kaigoss69

T3mpest said:


> How good of a job does the ms-8 do at eliminating the stock crossover points? I have a bose setup right now and the sub doesn't seem to have any output below 30hz. I'd say it's crossed over at 40hz or so because by 20hz the cone doesn't even move anymore. If I wire in after the bose amp, which would be alot easier, can it still derive a full range preamp signal? If I wire in before the amp I'll lose the volume control on my HU because the bose amp handles the volume changes via a data line going to the amp, not be regulating preamp voltage at the HU.


Andy said many times that the processor will reconstruct the missing frequencies. The chopped signals are still there, just attenuated.


----------



## t3sn4f2

One thing to consider is if the factory EQ/highpass setting depends on volume position. Some head unit use a highpass that gradually comes into place as you raise the volume in order to maintain good bass from small speakers at low outputs and protect them while maintaining high output at high volumes. GM does this.

So you may want to play around with which OEM volume setting you calibrate at in order to get a good balanced throughout the master volume's range. 

Calibrate at too high a volume setting and the bass gets bloated when you lower the volume and the dynamic highpass goes away. beyond the pleasant sound a slight bass boost gives at lower setting.

Calibrate too low and the bass will still roll off at higher setting and cut the bass from the upgraded drivers that can now handle the demand.


----------



## vrdublu

Need some help here as I've changed things up a bit. I used to run a 3-way front with mid bass support from rear doors in parallel to the front mid-bass. Also, running one sub in trunk. As I have read through some of the pages, it has been said that running mid-bass in back fro reinforcement is not a suggested way of doing things. So, in light of this I have removed the rear mid-bass speakers and replaced them with 6.5" coaxials.

I could use a little help in determining in which way to setup the speaker prior to calibration? I used to run 70hz between sub and mid-bass, 400hz cutoff between the mid-bass and mid, and finally 5khz between the mid and tweeter. Again, any help would be appreciated.

This is currently my setup:

*ch1* - 4" Left mid in kick with 1" tweeter. The tweeter has a passive high pass of 3.5khz on it, will this cause some sort of phase shift when MS-8 applies it's own filter? The mid has nothing. Currently have this setup as a 2-way with a 400hz cutoff, is this right?

*ch2* -4" Right mid in kick with 1" tweeter. The tweeter has a passive high pass of 3.5khz on it, will this cause some sort of phase shift when MS-8 applies it's own filter? The mid has nothing. Currently have this setup as a 2-way with a 400hz cutoff, is this right?

*ch3* -6.5" mid-bass Left side in front door @ 70hz-400hz 24db.

*ch4* - 6.5" mid-bass Right side in front door @ 70hz -400hz 24db.

*ch5* - Left coaxial in Rear-left bottom door. Should this be set-up as a rear or side speaker, whats's a good cutoff? Currently set to 100hz 24db.

*ch6* - Right coaxial in Rear-right bottom door. Should this be set-up as a rear or side speaker, whats's a good cutoff? Currently set to 100hz 24db.

*ch7* - Sub @ 70hz 24db


----------



## chofilena

How do you guys suggest on how i can do my acoustic calibration if your using the cdt image enhancers. Should I calibrate together with the main tweeters and the woofer or should I uninstall the image enhancers from the passive x-over and re-install after the calibration?


----------



## unemployedconsumer

chofilena said:


> How do you guys suggest on how i can do my acoustic calibration if your using the cdt image enhancers. Should I calibrate together with the main tweeters and the woofer or should I uninstall the image enhancers from the passive x-over and re-install after the calibration?


Cover them up during the time alignment sweep, uncover them for the eq sweeps. That's what I would do if set on using them.


----------



## vrdublu

unemployedconsumer said:


> Cover them up during the time alignment sweep, uncover them for the eq sweeps. That's what I would do if set on using them.


I believe in the past it has been said to cover the tweeters for the first pass of the four pass process of the calibration because T/A is performed at that time for the drivers. The cdt tweeters run off the same passive network as the other speakers in your setup and are attenuated I believe? You want the T/A to be setup for your mids more so than your tweeters.

I have my Tweeters and 4" mids running of the same channels, so I cover the tweeters when I do calibration for the first step in each seat location, works great. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Sgriffin

When I used a ms-8 with my CDT image tweeters I covered them just like everyone else said, and I was happy with the results.


----------



## chofilena

Thanks for the big help. I'll be using the CDT 484 passive X-over which is image enhancer ready. This will be my set- up
Ch1. CDT 484 x-over (DRT 25 tweeter, ES 03 midrange and WS100i image tweets) 2way setting on the MS-8 left side
Ch2. CDT ES600 woofer left side
Ch3. Center speaker MB QUART QM100KN-S
Ch4. Rear speakers left 
Ch5. Front speakers right side
Ch6. woofer right side
Ch7. Rear speakers right
Ch8. TC sub
Any suggestions with my x-over setting?
My amplifier will be:
1. RF T400-4 which will power the mids, tweets and the image tweets on the passive x-over (channel 1 and 2 on the amp).
Channel 3 and 4 will be bridged for the Center channel
2. RF P400-4 will be bridged for the left and right woofer
3. RF T500-1 sub
Rear speaker will be powered by the MS-8


----------



## Tominizer

I tried reading all 300+ pages and just couldn't pull it off. So I'll ask my question anyways.

Setup:

Factory 2008 Mini Cooper head unit.
JBL MS8
JL 600.6
JL 600.1
3-way Dayton Audio front stage (6.5", 4" and tweeter)
3x 8" sealed box in the boot


I can either get the system setup to be loud OR accurate, but not both. When I get it setup to sound right, I cannot get any volume out of the system. Maybe the system test levels are too low (so they dont' overwelm the calibration mics on the headset) but that's the only way I can get the system to sound right. Or can this be that I really haven't set my gains properly? Regardless, it's not there yet. And I'm at the point of ditching the factory head unit and moving onto an aftermarket source to use with the MS8. but has anyone else ever experienced not being able to get any volume out of their setup???


----------



## kaigoss69

Tominizer said:


> I tried reading all 300+ pages and just couldn't pull it off. So I'll ask my question anyways.
> 
> Setup:
> 
> Factory 2008 Mini Cooper head unit.
> JBL MS8
> JL 600.6
> JL 600.1
> 3-way Dayton Audio front stage (6.5", 4" and tweeter)
> 3x 8" sealed box in the boot
> 
> 
> I can either get the system setup to be loud OR accurate, but not both. When I get it setup to sound right, I cannot get any volume out of the system. Maybe the system test levels are too low (so they dont' overwelm the calibration mics on the headset) but that's the only way I can get the system to sound right. Or can this be that I really haven't set my gains properly? Regardless, it's not there yet. And I'm at the point of ditching the factory head unit and moving onto an aftermarket source to use with the MS8. but has anyone else ever experienced not being able to get any volume out of their setup???


Set gains on the 600/6 to 12 o'clock (~2V), on the 600/1 to minimum. Calibrate at conversation volume, start with -30 dB and see how loud the sweeps are. After calibration, turn MS-8 volume to -6 dB and use OEM HU volume. Increase sub gain to your liking. If front stage is still not loud enough, increase the 600/6 amp gains all by the same amount and recalibrate (may have to decrease calibration volume due to more output).


----------



## Devnani

It's good to know Andy that you're still up for helping us with our MS8 blues!

I got an MS8 about 3 months ago, but didn't fire it up until yesterday for the first time. It went really bad! 

The output diagnostics sent pink noise to both the tweeters (2-Way Setup), whether I selected Front Left or Front Right.

Config:

CH1 - FR Lo
CH2 - FL Lo
CH3 - Sub1
CH4 - FL Hi
CH5 - FR Hi

Yes, I triple, quadraple checked my RCA cable connections, cable integrity, and speaker wire connections.

No pink noise through the midbass speakers, no audio output through them even if I went ahead with the setup and played music.

Went back to output diagnostics, and pink noise is through both the tweeters unless the sub is selected, that's when the sub outputs the pink noise.

Never heard of such a thing on any other thread, or the internet, looked around a bit. Don't know what to do about it.


----------



## dileepsv

Hi guys,

I am currently running the following components installed in my M3 Coupe and JUST ordered the *JBL MS-8* !!

*2x Focal K2Powers fronts
2x Focal Polyglass 165VBs rears
1x JL 10w3v3-2ohm Sub
1x JL HD 900/5 amp (powering everything right now)*

How should I do the wiring/channels such that I get the BEST SQ from the new JBL MS-8 unit?

Should I perhaps, buy an additional Center speaker to go Logic7 with the current set-up? Is it really worth it?

I really do not have any experience installing components and will be getting the audio shop to do the install of the MS-8. Just want a few educated opinions/knowledge of my own before I go to the shop and see what they plan on doing.

Thank you!

Dil


----------



## 14642

Devnani said:


> It's good to know Andy that you're still up for helping us with our MS8 blues!
> 
> I got an MS8 about 3 months ago, but didn't fire it up until yesterday for the first time. It went really bad!
> 
> The output diagnostics sent pink noise to both the tweeters (2-Way Setup), whether I selected Front Left or Front Right.
> 
> Config:
> 
> CH1 - FR Lo
> CH2 - FL Lo
> CH3 - Sub1
> CH4 - FL Hi
> CH5 - FR Hi
> 
> Yes, I triple, quadraple checked my RCA cable connections, cable integrity, and speaker wire connections.
> 
> No pink noise through the midbass speakers, no audio output through them even if I went ahead with the setup and played music.
> 
> Went back to output diagnostics, and pink noise is through both the tweeters unless the sub is selected, that's when the sub outputs the pink noise.
> 
> Never heard of such a thing on any other thread, or the internet, looked around a bit. Don't know what to do about it.


Check to be sure you don't have any bridge switches engaged on the amp. Short of some huge malfunction, that's the only thing besides incorrect connections that would cause this.


----------



## jfrazier30

I carefully installed the MS-8 in my 2013 Tundra CrewMax. 
I removed all the interior and installed RAAMmat on all the metal surfaces. 
I am using Hertz 6.5's in the front doors, with the matching tweeters in the stock dash locations. 
I have Dayton RS-180's in the rear doors, and a Dayton RS-100 in the Center dash location. 
I installed a Pioneer ib-flat 12" sub in a small sealed box behind the seats. 
Amps are Alpine PDX-5 and PDX 4.100.

All I can say is " WOW ". The MS-8 is really cool. I have run the setup a few times, while making small changes. It's been about a week, and I am having so much fun tweeking the system. I have not yet found the perfect setup, but I learn more about it everytime I make a change.

Thanks JBL!


----------



## jfrazier30

And, as the old saying goes! "Pics or it didn't happen!"


----------



## vrdublu

jfrazier30 said:


> I carefully installed the MS-8 in my 2013 Tundra CrewMax.
> I removed all the interior and installed RAAMmat on all the metal surfaces.
> I am using Hertz 6.5's in the front doors, with the matching tweeters in the stock dash locations.
> I have Dayton RS-180's in the rear doors, and a Dayton RS-100 in the Center dash location.
> I installed a Pioneer ib-flat 12" sub in a small sealed box behind the seats.
> Amps are Alpine PDX-5 and PDX 4.100.
> 
> All I can say is " WOW ". The MS-8 is really cool. I have run the setup a few times, while making small changes. It's been about a week, and I am having so much fun tweeking the system. I have not yet found the perfect setup, but I learn more about it everytime I make a change.
> 
> Thanks JBL!


I would recommend replacing the rear RS-180's with a coaxial speaker for ambiance. I have removed a 6.5" mid-bass in a similar setup in my car, and it made a world of difference.


----------



## t3sn4f2

vrdublu said:


> I would recommend replacing the rear RS-180's with a coaxial speaker for ambiance. I have removed a 6.5" mid-bass in a similar setup in my car, and it made a world of difference.


x2. They don't have to be extravagant. Just SQ based and better yet with a tweeter that can be angled upward and slightly forward.


----------



## Denslayer

While I've been a home audio enthusiast for well over 20 yrs , I've recently took my first steps into car audio . In my new 2013 accord I replaced all the speakers, added a 5 channel amp and put a small sub in the trunk . The stock accord audio was horrible . The sound now has greatly improved , but I know it could be better . I had the amp installed along with a audio control Lc8i recommended by the installer . Now I know the installer was just lazy and didnt want to dig around in my dash looking for the pre amp outs to the factory amp . I know from the honda forums that the HU has 7 pre outs . 2 tweeter, 2 midbass, 2 rear, 1 sub. Going to amp . The amp does all the x over points . So this is what I want to do 

HU 
Ms8
Alpine pdx-v9
Alpine type R comp front 
Alpine type s coax rears
JL-Audio-CP108LG-W3v3

Basically I want to bypass the stock amp . I also want to keep all steering wheel controls . The display will be tucked away in center or dash cubby . 

I already have speakers/ amps installed and will probably upgrade in a couple years 
So what do you guys think ? Will the ms8 be beneficial


----------



## Beckerson1

Andy,

I've got a tweeter (passenger side) that doesn't work when calibrating (sweeps) but works just fine when playing music. Ohm loads seem to come out good. 

What could be causing this?


----------



## sheetzdw

Please tell me if hooking up an MS-8 to Harmon Kardon premium system in a Buick, would it be best to use speakers level connections from Front L/R and center, Rear L/R and SUbs?
or is it not necessary to use the factory sub channel? I want to run front channel in active mode to woofers and tweeters, rear 2 channels in passive mode, and 1 channel directly to the front using the JBL MS8 amplification. Would this work well?


----------



## t3sn4f2

sheetzdw said:


> Please tell me if hooking up an MS-8 to Harmon Kardon premium system in a Buick, would it be best to use speakers level connections from Front L/R and center, Rear L/R and SUbs?
> or is it not necessary to use the factory sub channel? I want to run front channel in active mode to woofers and tweeters, rear 2 channels in passive mode, and 1 channel directly to the front using the JBL MS8 amplification. Would this work well?


I can't say for sure which channels will give you the full range or semi-full range signal the ms8 requires. BUT I can tell you that the only way you can even get to that step is by disabling any type of multichannel processing. If the head unit doesn't have the option to turn it off and put itself in stereo mode then that head unit is incompatible with the ms-8.


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> I can't say for sure which channels will give you the full range or semi-full range signal the ms8 requires. BUT I can tell you that the only way you can even get to that step is by disabling any type of multichannel processing. If the head unit doesn't have the option to turn it off and put itself in stereo mode then that head unit is incompatible with the ms-8.



Well, that depends on what processing is being used for the center channel. If it's dolby or DTS, then mS-8 isn't a downmixer. However, if the center channel is a simple L+R, then it'll work fine.

1. what processing is in the car?
2. Can it be turned off?
3. Use front and sub as inputs for the MS-8.
4. Connect MS-8 and/or amps to the rest of the speakers.


----------



## 14642

OK. I just looked it up. It's a matrix surround, which means there is center steering. Turn off the surround in the head unit' menu, connect front and subs to the input of MS-8. Connect everything else to the outputs of MS-8. use MS-8 in 5.1 (connect center and sides), calibrate and all will be fine.


----------



## Beckerson1

Beckerson1 said:


> Andy,
> 
> I've got a tweeter (passenger side) that doesn't work when calibrating (sweeps) but works just fine when playing music. Ohm loads seem to come out good.
> 
> What could be causing this?


Update:

Got it all figured out.


----------



## sheetzdw

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> OK. I just looked it up. It's a matrix surround, which means there is center steering. Turn off the surround in the head unit' menu, connect front and subs to the input of MS-8. Connect everything else to the outputs of MS-8. use MS-8 in 5.1 (connect center and sides), calibrate and all will be fine.



I guess that means I will lose the factory front / rear fade control, huh?

A HUGE Thanks Andy, not sure where you got the info I have been searching for days!




LF Door = Tan +, Gray-
RF Door = Light Green +, Pink/Black -
LF Tweeter (in the pillar) = Gray +, Tan -
RF Tweeter (in the pillar) = Pink/Black +, Light Green -
(The tweeters are wired with the same wires as the door speakers just opposite polarities)
LR Door = Tan/Orange +, White -
RR Door = Tan/Black +, Orange -
Center Dash Speaker = Yellow +, Light Blue -
LR Deck (6x9) = Dark Blue +, Dark Blue/White -
RR Deck (6x9) = Light Blue +, Light Blue/Black -


----------



## 14642

sheetzdw said:


> I guess that means I will lose the factory front / rear fade control, huh?
> 
> A HUGE Thanks Andy, not sure where you got the info I have been searching for days!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LF Door = Tan +, Gray-
> RF Door = Light Green +, Pink/Black -
> LF Tweeter (in the pillar) = Gray +, Tan -
> RF Tweeter (in the pillar) = Pink/Black +, Light Green -
> (The tweeters are wired with the same wires as the door speakers just opposite polarities)
> LR Door = Tan/Orange +, White -
> RR Door = Tan/Black +, Orange -
> Center Dash Speaker = Yellow +, Light Blue -
> LR Deck (6x9) = Dark Blue +, Dark Blue/White -
> RR Deck (6x9) = Light Blue +, Light Blue/Black -


Yes, MS-8 doesn't support the factory fader, but there's one included in MS-8


----------



## ousooner2

Andy, do you know what db one should shoot for when tuning? I'm assuming it puts out at 75db, but figured I'd ask. Just want to get it all level matched and make sure I'm not running it too loud. I'm thinking that's my issue as my stage isn't very good with tunes lately. Very crowded! There's far left...a very slight bit towards the center, center, and then pretty much all far right (playing the 7-drums across the stage from Alan Parsons Soundcheck disc)


----------



## 14642

ousooner2 said:


> Andy, do you know what db one should shoot for when tuning? I'm assuming it puts out at 75db, but figured I'd ask. Just want to get it all level matched and make sure I'm not running it too loud. I'm thinking that's my issue as my stage isn't very good with tunes lately. Very crowded! There's far left...a very slight bit towards the center, center, and then pretty much all far right (playing the 7-drums across the stage from Alan Parsons Soundcheck disc)


The window for acceptable volume is really big. If you aren't getting a center image, it could be that the first sweeps are too loud, but for them to be too loud, they have to be REALLY loud and for them to be too soft, they have to be almost inaudible. 

It could also be one of the front speakers in reverse polarity. 

Last but not least, if you're using a 2-way component in the front with a passive crossover with the tweeters and the mids mounted a really different distances from the listening position, MS-8 is time aligning for the tweeters. Cover the tweeters during the first set of sweeps so MS-8 will locate the mids.


----------



## AAAAAAA

BTW thanks andy for still doing this, even after no longer being associated with the project or the company.


----------



## chofilena

Andy, I'm thinking of joining my first SQ EMMA competition this Aug 10 . But I'm so confused on what to do with my center speaker. I was able to meet an experienced EMMA competitor whom I was able to ask to listen to my car. And I thought i was already listening to good music, but he told me to remove the center speaker since its narrowing down the width of the stage and towering the sound in the center. After all the effort of putting in a 4"speaker on the dash and know I have to remove it. He also told me that my set-up is for multi- media(DVD and movies) and not for music. What do you think I should do? MS-8 experts please help.
This is my set up now:
Output 1 tweeter/mid FL lo/hi RCA mounted on the doors
Output 2 coaxial RL (100hz) speaker
Output 3 coaxial SL (100hz) speaker
Output 4 center (200hz) RCA
Output 5 Tweeter/mid FR lo/hi RCA
Output 6 RR speaker
Output 7 SR speaker
Output 8 SUB (80hz) RCA

Now I want to try a 3-way component system
Output 1 tweeter/mid FL lo/hi (passive x-over) RCA mounted on kick panels
Output 2 woofer (???) RCA
Output 3 coaxial SL (100hz) speaker
Output 4 center ???
Output 5 Tweeter/mid FR lo/hi (passive x-over) RCA
Output 6 woofer RCA
Output 7 SR speaker
Output 8 SUB RCA
Note: with CDT image tweeters

So what do you guys think,
-should I install the center speaker and add another amp?
- will the CDT image tweeters helpful or useless?
- Is the kick panel for the location for the mids and tweets bad or good?
gets confusing sometimes where to put them, some would say 
- tweets and mids on the kicks and woofer on doors
- mid on kicks tweets on A-pillars and woofer on doors
- mids and tweets on A-pillars and woofer on doors
- and last they would tell you to keep drivers as close together
What's it really? Guys please help I really don't have time If I'll join the competition.Thanks
-


----------



## chofilena

Andy, I'm thinking of joining my first SQ EMMA competition this Aug 10 . But I'm so confused on what to do with my center speaker. I was able to meet an experienced EMMA competitor whom I was able to ask to listen to my car. And I thought i was already listening to good music, but he told me to remove the center speaker since its narrowing down the width of the stage and towering the sound in the center. After all the effort of putting in a 4"speaker on the dash and know I have to remove it. He also told me that my set-up is for multi- media(DVD and movies) and not for music. What do you think I should do? MS-8 experts please help.
This is my set up now:
Output 1 tweeter/mid FL lo/hi RCA mounted on the doors
Output 2 coaxial RL (100hz) speaker
Output 3 coaxial SL (100hz) speaker
Output 4 center (200hz) RCA
Output 5 Tweeter/mid FR lo/hi RCA
Output 6 RR speaker
Output 7 SR speaker
Output 8 SUB (80hz) RCA

Now I want to try a 3-way component system
Output 1 tweeter/mid FL lo/hi (passive x-over) RCA mounted on kick panels
Output 2 woofer (???) RCA
Output 3 coaxial SL (100hz) speaker
Output 4 center ???
Output 5 Tweeter/mid FR lo/hi (passive x-over) RCA
Output 6 woofer RCA
Output 7 SR speaker
Output 8 SUB RCA
Note: with CDT image tweeters

So what do you guys think,
-should I install the center speaker and add another amp?
- will the CDT image tweeters helpful or useless?
- Is the kick panel for the location for the mids and tweets bad or good?
gets confusing sometimes where to put them, some would say 
- tweets and mids on the kicks and woofer on doors
- mid on kicks tweets on A-pillars and woofer on doors
- mids and tweets on A-pillars and woofer on doors
- and last they would tell you to keep drivers as close together
What's it really? Guys please help I really don't have time If I'll join the competition.Thanks
-


----------



## 14642

I wouldn't install another pair of tweeters. Some competition judges and competitors don't like systems that provide a strong center image, but I think they're full of ****. I wouldn't remove the center or the rear, but for competition, I might turn off L7 and move the fader in MS-8 to the front. Then, it will sound like a simple 2--channel car that they are used to listening to, especially if it's only one-seat judging.


----------



## dileepsv

Andy please provide your experienced opinion on this one.
Posted it once here but got ignored, so posting again.

I am currently running the following components installed in my M3 Coupe and BOUGHT the JBL MS-8 but have not installed yet.
HU: Pioneer Avic Z150BH
Front: Focal K2Powers 165 KR
Rear: Focal Polyglass 165VB
Sub: JL 10w3v3-2ohm 
Amp: JL HD 900/5 (powering everything right now)

How should I do the wiring/channels such that I get the BEST SQ from the new JBL MS-8 unit?

Should I perhaps, buy an additional Center speaker to go Logic7 with the current set-up? Is it really worth it?

I really do not have any experience installing components and will be getting the audio shop to do the install of the MS-8. Just want a few educated opinions/knowledge.


----------



## chofilena

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I wouldn't install another pair of tweeters. Some competition judges and competitors don't like systems that provide a strong center image, but I think they're full of ****. I wouldn't remove the center or the rear, but for competition, I might turn off L7 and move the fader in MS-8 to the front. Then, it will sound like a simple 2--channel car that they are used to listening to, especially if it's only one-seat judging.


What do you think of kick panels for my mids and tweets? Some would say that kick panels are not applicable for newer cars because of the large dashboards. How true is this? Thanks Andy


----------



## 14642

I'd bi-amp the front using MS-8's crossovers (2-way) for the front, use MS-8's amp for the rears. Listen to it first and add a center later if you decide you need it. If you do, you'll need another amp.

Or, buy the center now, use the amp for the front, center and sub (use the passive crossovers for the front speakers) and us MS-8 to drive the rear speakers. 

I think using a center speaker sounds best.


----------



## dileepsv

Awesome, thanks. as long as I can find a spot for the center speakers lol.

Would you recommend any good center speakers with this set-up? Im actually considering going this route..


----------



## Bluenote

Andy, I am considering going from 3 way to 2 way by installing a set of Morel 402 coaxials in my sail panels. Since you've suggested that this is an ideal tweeter location, are there any concerns with midrange frequencies coming from that location as well? I have a 5 1/4 center channel and with logic 7 on, I find that it sufficiently distributes sound from pillar to pillar with good height as well. Thanks!


----------



## 14642

Bluenote said:


> Andy, I am considering going from 3 way to 2 way by installing a set of Morel 402 coaxials in my sail panels. Since you've suggested that this is an ideal tweeter location, are there any concerns with midrange frequencies coming from that location as well? I have a 5 1/4 center channel and with logic 7 on, I find that it sufficiently distributes sound from pillar to pillar with good height as well. Thanks!


3-way to 2-way sounds like a downgrade to me. If you put those 4" speakers in the sail panels, the enclosure behind them will be really small. I'd be concerned about the low frequency response in such a tiny box.


----------



## Bluenote

Andy, thanks for reviewing the idea...I was looking for a way to distribute the sound more evenly as my current apillar mid/tweets are firing into the same location as the center. Without the apillars playing the center itself provides a lot of sound that I thoought were mostly coming from the pillars know what I mean?


----------



## 14642

Turn down the center channel in MS-8's menu and see if you like that better.


----------



## Bluenote

Got it! Thanks


----------



## taibanl

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> There are two possibilities:
> 
> 1. The remmote is bad.
> 2*. The display is an old one from the first production run. RF reception performance was improved.*





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The transmission power of the remote was also increased by about 20dB. I'll bet the new one will be fine.


Andy,

I am currently corresponding with parts to get better range with my remote. Can you help?


In one of the above posts you indicate the remote was improved, in the other you refer to the reception ability of the display. Can you elaborate which? both? <---Edit: I take it both
Do you have any idea what production month or serial number the changeover took place? Parts wants to verify if indeed I have an old one. (they specifically asked for SN).
Any other words on how to convince them to swap both out? They seemed pretty leery of my story and had no info regarding your statements above.
Thanks!


----------



## miniSQ

I bet this has been asked and answered more than once in these pages...

But, i have a decent system in my 2013 elanta GT. Front speakers are passive comps, powered by a hifonics Odin. I am happy with the sound...but figure i can get more out of them with some processing.

rear speakers are factory...but i am not a huge rear fill fan.

subs i have 4 8" drivers in a sealed box powered by a mono amp with built in XO for low pass.

I was thinking i would add a audio control EQX to handle some small tweaks i want to do with the over all balance.

But i have a chance to buy this MS-8...and based on the gear i have listed...is this DSP complete overkill...or should i try it out?


----------



## 14642

taibanl said:


> Andy,
> 
> I am currently corresponding with parts to get better range with my remote. Can you help?
> 
> 
> In one of the above posts you indicate the remote was improved, in the other you refer to the reception ability of the display. Can you elaborate which? both? <---Edit: I take it both
> Do you have any idea what production month or serial number the changeover took place? Parts wants to verify if indeed I have an old one. (they specifically asked for SN).
> Any other words on how to convince them to swap both out? They seemed pretty leery of my story and had no info regarding your statements above.
> Thanks!


I don't have access to any of those records anymore, since I no longer work there. Sorry.


----------



## chofilena

What subwoofer enclosure works best with the MS-8? Sealed or ported/slotted port?


----------



## taibanl

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> There are two possibilities:
> 
> 1. The remmote is bad.
> *2. The display is an old one from the first production run. RF reception performance was improved.*
> 
> Your choices:
> 1. Return your BNIB to eBay and buy a new one from an authorized seller.
> 2. Call or email our parts department (www.JBL.com) to see if you can get a replacement screen and remote. If you're nice, they may waive the requirement for a receipt from an authorized seller. If you sound on the phone like you sounded originally on the forum, they'll probably sell you one if they have them in stock.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The transmission power of the remote was also increased by about 20dB. I'll bet the new one will be fine.





taibanl said:


> Andy,
> 
> I am currently corresponding with parts to get better range with my remote. Can you help?
> 
> 
> In one of the above posts you indicate the remote was improved, in the other you refer to the reception ability of the display. Can you elaborate which? both? <---Edit: I take it both
> Do you have any idea what production month or serial number the changeover took place? Parts wants to verify if indeed I have an old one. (they specifically asked for SN).
> Any other words on how to convince them to swap both out? They seemed pretty leery of my story and had no info regarding your statements above.
> Thanks!





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I don't have access to any of those records anymore, since I no longer work there. Sorry.


Thanks
I understand completely, thank you for replying.

If you don't mind a small reattack. Do you have any contacts who would know? or can you otherwise confirm that both the remote and the display were improved?

Thanks for your service.


----------



## venkiee

Andy

Would you please suggest a setup for factory system of Mercedes W204 (C200 CGI) ?? using just JBL MS8


----------



## taibanl

taibanl said:


> Thanks
> I understand completely, thank you for replying.
> 
> If you don't mind a small reattack. Do you have any contacts who would know? or can you otherwise confirm that both the remote and the display were improved?
> 
> Thanks for your service.


Resolved! Thank you Andy.


----------



## file audio

Whaaaaattttt ? 350 pages i read only 4 and last.. please tell me this jbl ms-08 or audison bit one im a sq.searcher I want the best audio posible but for this dsp 500 dlls worth it? Any advises Im using eqx and eqs audiocontrol righ now


----------



## The Max

file audio said:


> Whaaaaattttt ? 350 pages i read only 4 and last.. please tell me this jbl ms-08 or audison bit one im a sq.searcher I want the best audio posible but for this dsp 500 dlls worth it? Any advises Im using eqx and eqs audiocontrol righ now


Given all the other hardware you're incorporating this into, I wouldn't advise you get the MS-8. In my opinion, I believe the MS-8 was made for the average Joe who wants a more than average sound out of their OEM stereo system. Many will disagree with me on this, I'm sure, but that's the nature of audio and visual where all our perceptions are unique from one another.

What the JBL MS-8 purports to do, it does well. But, if you're after that perfect tune, you'll want something which will give you complete control over every part of the signal chain within that box. I went with the Arc Audio PS8 for that reason.

I tried the JBL and it just didn't give me neither the sound nor the features I wanted but as the saying goes, one man's trash is another man's treasure. I don't believe the JBL MS8 is a bad unit, I just don't believe it is right for me.


----------



## Beckerson1

The Max said:


> Given all the other hardware you're incorporating this into, I wouldn't advise you get the MS-8. In my opinion, I believe the MS-8 was made for the average Joe who wants a more than average sound out of their OEM stereo system. Many will disagree with me on this, I'm sure, but that's the nature of audio and visual where all our perceptions are unique from one another.
> 
> What the JBL MS-8 purports to do, it does well. But, if you're after that perfect tune, you'll want something which will give you complete control over every part of the signal chain within that box. I went with the Arc Audio PS8 for that reason.
> 
> I tried the JBL and it just didn't give me neither the sound nor the features I wanted but as the saying goes, one man's trash is another man's treasure. I don't believe the JBL MS8 is a bad unit, I just don't believe it is right for me.


I can't agree with you more. I personally love and hate the MS-8. 

I love how easy it is and what it can do. On the flip side, I want control over just about everything.

I soon will sell the MS-8. Run the 80 PRS I have for now (just running 2-way + sub right now) and once I go 3-way I will go with another processor. Which one IDK. I will have to do some research.


----------



## file audio

Wooow the maxx what a unbiased opinion you gave me . Tnx , i dont know why I have a deep respect for the arc audio company even if i never tried one of their products.
Very true some guys have their l7s kickers as treasures, :s im starting to look for some info for that arc dsp and decide if is the best for me . I use the eqx and eqs toguether in the middle of front seats and i have total control of frecuencies and volumes which i like .i know with the bitOne i can only have 4 user sets.and we all know when we here usbs and ipods music even downloaded at higher 320bitrate dont have a constant uniform plastiticy and every song sounds different. From one to another lose the bass of the highs etc


----------



## t3sn4f2

file audio said:


> *Wooow the maxx what a unbiased opinion you gave me . *Tnx , i dont know why I have a deep respect for the arc audio company even if i never tried one of their products.
> Very true some guys have their l7s kickers as treasures, :s im starting to look for some info for that arc dsp and decide if is the best for me . I use the eqx and eqs toguether in the middle of front seats and i have total control of frecuencies and volumes which i like .i know with the bitOne i can only have 4 user sets.and we all know when we here usbs and ipods music even downloaded at higher 320bitrate dont have a constant uniform plastiticy and every song sounds different. From one to another lose the bass of the highs etc



http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/bikinpunks-product-review-forum/83066-jbls-ms-8-a.html


----------



## NosyJoe

No more output!

My hardware consists of the following:

MS-8
JL 700/5
Earthquake sws-8xi 2 0hm (under seats)
JL Audio 10w3v3 2 ohm
BSW plug and play for BMW 4" and tweets passively capped

I initially had everything running off the MS-8 in the following configuration:

INPUT:

CH 1 - LF
CH 2 - RF
CH 3 - LR
CH 4 - RR

OUTPUT:

CH 1 - LHi 200 Hz up
CH 2 - SL 200 Hz up
CH 3 - RHi 200 Hz up
CH 4 - SR 200 Hz up
CH 5 - CTR 200 Hz up
CH 6 - L Lo 100 Hz - 200 Hz
CH 7 - R Lo 100 Hz - 200 Hz
CH 8 - Sub 100 Hz down

Worked perfectly and beautifully with the MS-8 alone, best sound after toying in the hobby for 20 years, not loud but sounded amazing! Bought the JL 700/5 and JL sub before I realized how good it would sound without them. Bought 2 ohm version of the subs in the initial design to give the eight inch and 10 inch the recommended power - @150 watts to each under seat 8 inch and 300 watt to the 10 inch using the JL 700/5 and 75 watts with the remaining 2 channels off the 700/5 for front right and left, with the JBL outputs remaining for the center and rear surrounds.

Here comes the kicker...I installed the initial MS-8 only configuration myself without any issues, but decided that I would bring it to a "pro" to have everything wired cleanly, the JL amp added for the extra power and tucked away and hidden from view. After install, no center sound, no left rear sound, sound coming from the rear right with a loud popping on start-up and shutdown. 

On calibration everything always comes up ok, ok ,ok. I double checked the inputs by rewiring the outputs off the deck directly back to the speakers (except the 8 inch since they are 2 ohm vs the factory 4 ohm speaker that were under the seats before) - all worked. Checked all speaker connections with battery, all pop. Rewired and reset MS8 configuration - software reset and then hardware reset as recommended by JBL america. Re-calibrated and now get no sound whatsoever. I regret having a "pro" touch it since I was so careful with the whole setup and I cannot fathom something working so perfectly before and then not working afterwards. He said it's faulty hardware which I found hard to believe when it was working before and ready for my summer road trips.

Now have a support call into Erikson Canada. I have a hard time believing a hardware failure can happen after a week of using the device. I have 20 year old amps that still work perfectly.

Anybody run into a similar issue? Anybody have issues with customer support/warranty in Canada?

Read about 80% of this threads but not many with this issue. I really liked quickly changing and calibrating with the MS-8 alone and I can't wait to start playing with it again after it's replaced/fixed...I miss the sound and was excited couldn't believe it could sound better adding the JL 700/5 and never got to test that theory out.


----------



## btolenti

No experience with Canada warranty work, but had a similar issue when I installed my MS-8. Installed it, did the calibration and it worked great for two to three days. Fourth day I got in my car and boom, no sound at all....and the screen would blink the startup screen for a few seconds then go blank. Tried to troubleshoot it for about a week. Then I gave up, called into JBL to request a repair facility (bought mine used), and they had it for a month trying to figure it out. Eventually they sent it in to JBL and they ended up replacing the main board. Installed and has been running great for over a year now..... Now sure what the heck went wrong....


----------



## NosyJoe

Thanks for your feedback. 

Although we both don't have output (with your previous ms-8), my situation is slightly different. I have no other problem except for no outputs on any channel, I don't have any issues with the screen, mic, setup, input, calibration, just no output and nothing from the channel tests. 

I'm hoping I don't have any issues with warranty buying from a Canadian online store, I wasn't able to find any brick and mortar in Canada that sold this at a reasonable price compared to the states except for the one I used. I have purchased quite a bit of JBL/Harman equipment in the past without ever having to use the warranty, so I would highly reconsider any future purchases if they don't come through on my first claim with them.


----------



## dileepsv

Hi Andy,

Current setup is:

Headunit: Pioneer AVIC Z150BH
Focal K2Power 165 KRs up front running ACTIVE off JL 900/5
JL 10w3v3 running off 5th channel on JL 900/5
JBL MS8 Processor currently connecting 4 front channels, 1 sub and 2 rears. 

Focal Polyglass 165VB Rears currently powered by the MS8.

The Rears (Polyglass) do not provide any sound at all (barely hear-able) so I am thinking of either going ACTIVE with a 4 channel amp or just passive with a 2 channel.

I'm worried about the imaging being pulled to the back if I go active in the front and rear as well... is that true? 

Please recommend what I should do to make it sound decent in the rear as well..


----------



## motovet

Did a bunch of sweeps, and can't get the bass to match the fronts. Always way too loud back there. Even after I drop the bass levels all the way down, too much bass. Also there is some noise from the MS-8, and after the last session it made a gawdawful screeching sound.....dunno.


----------



## kaigoss69

dileepsv said:


> Hi Andy,
> 
> Current setup is:
> 
> Headunit: Pioneer AVIC Z150BH
> Focal K2Power 165 KRs up front running ACTIVE off JL 900/5
> JL 10w3v3 running off 5th channel on JL 900/5
> JBL MS8 Processor currently connecting 4 front channels, 1 sub and 2 rears.
> 
> Focal Polyglass 165VB Rears currently powered by the MS8.
> 
> The Rears (Polyglass) do not provide any sound at all (barely hear-able) so I am thinking of either going ACTIVE with a 4 channel amp or just passive with a 2 channel.
> 
> I'm worried about the imaging being pulled to the back if I go active in the front and rear as well... is that true?
> 
> Please recommend what I should do to make it sound decent in the rear as well..


If you want to hear the rear speakers, turn Logic 7 off. That'll screw up your front stage though...


----------



## kaigoss69

motovet said:


> Did a bunch of sweeps, and can't get the bass to match the fronts. Always way too loud back there. Even after I drop the bass levels all the way down, too much bass. Also there is some noise from the MS-8, and after the last session it made a gawdawful screeching sound.....dunno.


May sound counter intuitive, but turn the sub up gain higher pre-calibration. If you have a trunk and the sub is in it, it also may help to fold down the seats or open the ski-pass if you have that possibility.


----------



## Ryanu

Hi all, just would like to ask a question. Im hooking up my ms8 to an aftermarket hu and external amplifier. Currently, my front channel RCA from hu is giving noise. I hooked up to the rear channel instead. To me, I didnt really notice the difference, but will there be any technical wise? Appreciate some feedback. Thanks!


----------



## dileepsv

What kind of noise ? from all the speakers?


----------



## Ryanu

Yeap.. only when I connect to the HIGH channel which is FRONT in normal setup. It was there when I was on 2 way setup.


----------



## Bluenote

How can I actively process a center channel in this config?

1. Morel hybrid integra 402 coaxials front pillars (electronic xover & MS8) 
2. Morel Elate MW9 midbass (MS8)
3. Rears ( MS8 power )
4. Morel hybrid integra 602 coaxial ( Center / MS8 ) 
5. Ultimo Sub

Amps (2) JL HD 900/5 ( one for each side ) + (1) HD1200/1 

HD900/5 - 100 watts for tweeter / 150 bridged for midrange / 500 to midbass (eachside)

* Morel 602 coaxial has a separate mid / tw and will be powered by both amps remaining channels @ 100 watts each... How can I band pass the ctr? If I want to keep it active and powered from separate amps? This is the best solution Ive come to - to have a fully powered Logic 7 front stage.

I have one Electronic xover handling the 402's is there room for a 2nd for the Center channel? Is there a single Active xover that can handle 6 channels?


----------



## quality_sound

I'd leave all of the Integras passive. No reason nor much,if any, benefit from running them active.


----------



## 14642

dileepsv said:


> Hi Andy,
> 
> Current setup is:
> 
> Headunit: Pioneer AVIC Z150BH
> Focal K2Power 165 KRs up front running ACTIVE off JL 900/5
> JL 10w3v3 running off 5th channel on JL 900/5
> JBL MS8 Processor currently connecting 4 front channels, 1 sub and 2 rears.
> 
> Focal Polyglass 165VB Rears currently powered by the MS8.
> 
> The Rears (Polyglass) do not provide any sound at all (barely hear-able) so I am thinking of either going ACTIVE with a 4 channel amp or just passive with a 2 channel.
> 
> I'm worried about the imaging being pulled to the back if I go active in the front and rear as well... is that true?
> 
> Please recommend what I should do to make it sound decent in the rear as well..


Turn off Logic 7 and see if you like that better. L7 steers only ambient sounds to the rear speakers.


----------



## 14642

motovet said:


> Did a bunch of sweeps, and can't get the bass to match the fronts. Always way too loud back there. Even after I drop the bass levels all the way down, too much bass. Also there is some noise from the MS-8, and after the last session it made a gawdawful screeching sound.....dunno.


First, after several tuning sessions, it's helpful to clear them memory by "reset factory defaults" in MS-8's menu. 

Next, where's the crossover set on your sub amp? It should either be "OFF" or set to the highest frequency available and the bass boost should be set at minimum. Gain on the amp should be set at 2V. Try that and then report your findings.


----------



## vrdublu

Andy:

I've been using the MS-8 for over a year now and playing with calibrations every once in awhile when I get bored. The system sounds fantastic in my opinion presently and pretty well from day one thanks to you and many on this forum. 

I took some snaps of my RTA of the latest calibrations in my car with -14db pink noise as reference, pics are from left #1 to right #3:

#1 is a RTA pic of a calibration with no adjustment of the settings. Notice the slight bump at around 1000hz, is this normal or something due to install? The hump at around 4-5khz is probably my passive for my tweet to mid and sensitivity matching as I'm running them on the same channel. 

#2 is a RTA of a calibration after adding +10db to the sub and bass in the settings menu, this sounds much better to me. Question is, I thought MS-8 +9 db already as it is? I pumped an extra +10db and it's still not exactly overpowering.

#3 is a RTA of Dick Tracy soundtrack playing from the Focal demo disc, an excellent recording. This shows the added +10db a lot clearer when played with music as opposed to pink noise.

Side note: I have rear fill coaxes in the back doors currently set as 1-way with a cutoff set to 150hz, is there a better cutoff to be used for this as some have mentioned 100hz? Is this trial and error and what suites you best?


----------



## file audio

Im confused wich one to buy jbl ms8 .arc ps8 expensive. Bitone. Bit ten. Zapco z8. Any help..someone selling one cheaper?


----------



## The Max

Why are you confused? Read as many reviews on each product, read through these forums for people's opinions (as long as they're actually based on personal experience and not just someone reading a brochure!) and if you have the opportunity, go into a shop and touch one in the flesh, see how it operates and listen to how it sounds.

I can only speak for the MS8 and the PS8. In short, I wish I bought the PS8 first instead of the MS8 because I didn't make all my money back on selling the MS8 when I decided the PS8 was what I really needed. Read what I wrote on the previous page of this thread (page 363) about the MS8. I was hugely disappointed with its build quality and overall results and when I did seek support, albeit via email, I got no response from JBL's staff. NOTHING. That is appalling. I shouldn't have to rely on the good nature of their former employee in this forum to get support.

On the other hand, when I had my teething issues with the PS8, not only was my local dealer happy to help but even Arc Audio's own engineer was quick to jump on the emails and talk me through a few things - within 24 hours. Within three emails and some more testing on my bench, the problem was solved and the car has a spectacular sound to it.

It's not enough to have a good product. People will have issues the first time they plug it in and try to get it all going. It's to be expected. And that's why the support side of the product is just as important as the quality of the product itself.

So from my experience, I'll never touch another JBL product again. I cherish my JBL HLS810 bookshelf speakers and LX66 floor speakers but the days of excellent craftsmanship and quality are behind JBL as far as I'm concerned and that's not just on the experience of the MS8. It goes far beyond that. JBL have become another Sony, where you really need to pay a lot to get the good product (i.e. pretty much top of the line) and it's a real shame.

I will say though, others have had issues setting up their PS8, reporting a high noise floor and some suggesting that the Helix C DSP was the magic bullet solution for them. Personally, I persevered with my PS8 after experiencing the crosstalk and the same noise floor issues and once I discovered it was the amp at fault, I fixed the problem and it's been great since.

Long and short of it, don't use crap gear with it. Since you seem to have decent amps in your system, I don't see you having any issues as long as everything is properly adjusted. So from me, you'll get the vote for PS8.


----------



## trumpet

vrdublu said:


> I took some snaps of my RTA of the latest calibrations in my car with -14db pink noise as reference, pics are from left #1 to right #3:


I have that RTA app and it's much more useful when you move the microphone around and watch the changing response. That is to say it's not that useful as an RTA, but it is better than nothing. If you're relying on the internal microphone of your Android device it's not aimed toward the speakers. 

I do notice the answer to your own question about if MS-8 calibrates the system with a +10 dB boost to the bass. You can simply look at your own screen shots #1 and #2 and see there's no bass boost until you added it. If you still don't have enough bass after adding +10 dB on the graphic EQ you may need to turn up the gains on your amplifiers.


----------



## vrdublu

trumpet said:


> I have that RTA app and it's much more useful when you move the microphone around and watch the changing response. That is to say it's not that useful as an RTA, but it is better than nothing. If you're relying on the internal microphone of your Android device it's not aimed toward the speakers.
> 
> I do notice the answer to your own question about if MS-8 calibrates the system with a +10 dB boost to the bass. You can simply look at your own screen shots #1 and #2 and see there's no bass boost until you added it. If you still don't have enough bass after adding +10 dB on the graphic EQ you may need to turn up the gains on your amplifiers.


Yes you're right, on all accounts, but I found that anything past +10db of boost drowns out the mids too much. Also, it is important to note that the "sub" and "bass" should both be boosted by the same amount so as to not lose that up front bass sound.

Just curious as to how many people get the same/similar response from their initial calibration? I have some humps in the 1khz region and between 4-8khz, although I'm pretty certain that's my tweets.


----------



## file audio

On the other hand, when I had my teething issues with the PS8, not only was my local dealer happy to help but even Arc Audio's own engineer was quick to jump on the emails and talk me through a few things - within 24 hours. Within three emails and some more testing on my bench, the problem was solved and the car has a spectacular sound to it.

It's not enough to have a good product. People will have issues the first time they plug it in and try to get it all going. It's to be expected. And that's why the support side of the product is just as important as the quality of the product itself.

So from my experience, I'll never touch another JBL product again. I cherish my JBL HLS810 bookshelf speakers and LX66 floor speakers but the days of excellent craftsmanship and quality are behind JBL as far as I'm concerned and that's not just on the experience of the MS8. It goes far beyond that. JBL have become another Sony, where you really need to pay a lot to get the good product (i.e. pretty much top of the line) and it's a real shame.

I will say though, others have had issues setting up their PS8, reporting a high noise floor and some suggesting that the Helix C DSP was the magic bullet solution for them. Personally, I persevered with my PS8 after experiencing the crosstalk and the same noise floor issues and once I discovered it was the amp at fault, I fixed the problem and it's been great since.

Long and short of it, don't use crap gear with it. Since you seem to have decent amps in your system, I don't see you having any issues as long as everything is properly adjusted. So from me, you'll get the vote for PS8.[/QUOTE]

Ok one amazing thing is yo have an audiocontrol eqx in dash I can move every single channel. .gains and parámeters but its not enough bad feedback or comments here affecting my mind . About purchase a jbl ms8 I like the display on hand.. so os the arc ps8? How many user presets has the arc?ait has control remoto or display? Thnx my friend


----------



## kaigoss69

vrdublu said:


> Also, it is important to note that the "sub" and "bass" should both be boosted by the same amount so as to not lose that up front bass sound.


That is an interesting observation. To this date, I still don't know the difference between "sub" and "bass" and if I use them independently, they seem to have the same effect, so I just use "sub". If anyone can explain the difference between the two, and a reason as to why to use them both, I would appreciate it.


----------



## trumpet

The Bass setting is in the tone control menu, and it's not doing the same as the "Sub" adjustment in the level control menu. If you like more bass, turn the Bass slider up. If you want more sub, turn the Sub slider up. The Sub slider will alter the midbass level to attempt to keep the bass up front, plus it maintains the crossover frequency.


----------



## Sounddreamer

Does anyone know where to buy the line input wires and the speaker output wires for the JBL MS8? Or some not using theirs willing to sell? Thanks!

I apologize in advance, I have no intention to disrespectfully hijack this thread.


----------



## kaigoss69

trumpet said:


> The Sub slider will alter the midbass level to attempt to keep the bass up front, plus it maintains the crossover frequency.


So how's that different from what the bass setting does?


----------



## trumpet

kaigoss69 said:


> So how's that different from what the bass setting does?


re: sub level
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1572758-post7754.html


Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The subwoofer control increases the bass in all channels below 60Hz but never above 160Hz. The slope of the EQ filter is increased as you increase the level. This is designed to increase the level of the sub bass without making it boomy and to maintain the apparent location of bass sounds by maintaining the acoustic crossover point between the sub and the rest of the speakers (primarily the front).


re: bass tone control
From the Owners Manual on page 37:


> This selection lets you adjust the system’s overall tone quality. The bass control and treble control are shelving-type controls, with ±10dB of boost and cut at 20Hz and 20kHz, respectively. The midrange control is a peak-and-dip type with a Q of 0.26 that offers ±10dB of boost and cut at 650Hz.


----------



## kaigoss69

Thanks for the info Trumpet. I am still confused though as to what the _real_ difference is between the two, because the sound the same to me!

Bass increases the level at 20Hz, but with what Q, and up to what frequencies and with what slope?

Sub increases the subwoofer level, but then also raises the midbass level, which _could_ have the same effect as "bass" depending on my crossover points and how the "bass" boosting is applied.


----------



## trumpet

Yeah, I don't think it's clear what the bass setting does. I haven't looked at the manual on the CD to see if it's got more information on these settings.


----------



## 14642

file audio said:


> On the other hand, when I had my teething issues with the PS8, not only was my local dealer happy to help but even Arc Audio's own engineer was quick to jump on the emails and talk me through a few things - within 24 hours. Within three emails and some more testing on my bench, the problem was solved and the car has a spectacular sound to it.
> 
> It's not enough to have a good product. People will have issues the first time they plug it in and try to get it all going. It's to be expected. And that's why the support side of the product is just as important as the quality of the product itself.
> 
> So from my experience, I'll never touch another JBL product again. I cherish my JBL HLS810 bookshelf speakers and LX66 floor speakers but the days of excellent craftsmanship and quality are behind JBL as far as I'm concerned and that's not just on the experience of the MS8. It goes far beyond that. JBL have become another Sony, where you really need to pay a lot to get the good product (i.e. pretty much top of the line) and it's a real shame.
> 
> I will say though, others have had issues setting up their PS8, reporting a high noise floor and some suggesting that the Helix C DSP was the magic bullet solution for them. Personally, I persevered with my PS8 after experiencing the crosstalk and the same noise floor issues and once I discovered it was the amp at fault, I fixed the problem and it's been great since.
> 
> Long and short of it, don't use crap gear with it. Since you seem to have decent amps in your system, I don't see you having any issues as long as everything is properly adjusted. So from me, you'll get the vote for PS8.


Ok one amazing thing is yo have an audiocontrol eqx in dash I can move every single channel. .gains and parámeters but its not enough bad feedback or comments here affecting my mind . About purchase a jbl ms8 I like the display on hand.. so os the arc ps8? How many user presets has the arc?ait has control remoto or display? Thnx my friend[/QUOTE]

It's a shame that they haven't provided any support. While i was at JBL, I tried my best to help everyone and made myself available at all hours of the day or night. I guess I was the last one...


----------



## file audio

Well audiophiles sometimes they like yti help. .. when people read my style of writing in english they dont help..I know they understand what im ttying to say. . Ineed an honest advise ti get onr dsp.. here comes this month a competition and im planning to enter in SQ category. .. so I have 3way +sub bit ten audison not enough.. what is the one jbl ms8. Arc audio ps8. Mosconi 6to8? Bit 1 .pxe660. Etc.. oonly have 400dlls and looking on ebay for a great opportunity


----------



## phatz314

Hi folks, I've read a substantial fraction of this thread, and searched like crazy --- but still not sure what the answer to my question is. 

My system: 
Stock-ish RNS-510 head unit in a 2011 VW Golf TDI
MS8 (to replace my Audison bit ten) (pulled out the stock amp a long time ago)
Arc Audio XDi 804 amp 120W x 4 ch into 2 ohm
Stock Dynaudio speakers: 4 ohm tweeters and 2 ohm woofers front and rear (8 drivers total)
2 dynaudio passive crossovers
Arc Audio XDi 1000.1 + 10" sub in a JL stealth box 

In any case, I will devote 6 MS8 channels to the front and rear speakers, plus 1 channel to the sub. But I am torn on how to divide the 6 channels. (Another 2 channel amp is out of the question, no space)

Given the choice, should I:

1. Run the front tweeters with the MS8 internal amp, the front woofers off 2 channels of the external amp, and the rear woofers + tweeters w/ passive crossovers off the external amp's other 2 channels? 
2. Or, run the front woofers and tweeters all externally amped, and run the rears w/ passive crossovers off the MS8 internal amps?

Leaning toward (2), since the rears aren't loud with Logic7 -- but it seems crazy to me to run woofers off a little internal amp and direct all that amped power to the tweeters. But, I understand from extensive searching that I may have a difficult time level matching if I run configuration 1, whereas with 2 I can just adjust adjust gains to get the front/rear balance I desire. 

Curious to hear others experience and insight. Love this forum and the knowledgeable posters!


----------



## kaigoss69

phatz314 said:


> Hi folks, I've read a substantial fraction of this thread, and searched like crazy --- but still not sure what the answer to my question is.
> 
> My system:
> Stock-ish RNS-510 head unit in a 2011 VW Golf TDI
> MS8 (to replace my Audison bit ten) (pulled out the stock amp a long time ago)
> Arc Audio XDi 804 amp 120W x 4 ch into 2 ohm
> Stock Dynaudio speakers: 4 ohm tweeters and 2 ohm woofers front and rear (8 drivers total)
> 2 dynaudio passive crossovers
> Arc Audio XDi 1000.1 + 10" sub in a JL stealth box
> 
> In any case, I will devote 6 MS8 channels to the front and rear speakers, plus 1 channel to the sub. But I am torn on how to divide the 6 channels. (Another 2 channel amp is out of the question, no space)
> 
> Given the choice, should I:
> 
> 1. Run the front tweeters with the MS8 internal amp, the front woofers off 2 channels of the external amp, and the rear woofers + tweeters w/ passive crossovers off the external amp's other 2 channels?
> 2. Or, run the front woofers and tweeters all externally amped, and run the rears w/ passive crossovers off the MS8 internal amps?
> 
> Leaning toward (2), since the rears aren't loud with Logic7 -- but it seems crazy to me to run woofers off a little internal amp and direct all that amped power to the tweeters. But, I understand from extensive searching that I may have a difficult time level matching if I run configuration 1, whereas with 2 I can just adjust adjust gains to get the front/rear balance I desire.
> 
> Curious to hear others experience and insight. Love this forum and the knowledgeable posters!


Option 2, no question about it! In L7 mode, the sides/rears do not need much power at all, they just play out of phase info for ambience and to complement the front stage.


----------



## phatz314

kaigoss69 said:


> Option 2, no question about it! In L7 mode, the sides/rears do not need much power at all, they just play out of phase info for ambience and to complement the front stage.



Thank you! Yes, this is what I will try out of the box.

One related question: When I calibrate, should I dial down the gain on the external amps to level match with the rears? And then after calibration, dial the gains back up to set the front/rear balance i want? Or can I level match just by lowering the output in the MS8 itself? I do have access to a PC-based RTA, so either way is no issue.


----------



## sheetzdw

quick question, will JBL MS8 accept low level input from factory Harman Kardon amp? I can tap into the low level wires at the factory amp location , I assume I would have to convert them to rca jacks and run cables then


----------



## dileepsv

wish i knew ur answer sheetzdw..
however, another quick question from a new user of this product: Do all of you have FLAT EQ from your Headunit while using the MS8? and just use the 31 band equalizer from the MS8 display unit to control everything?


----------



## kaigoss69

phatz314 said:


> Thank you! Yes, this is what I will try out of the box.
> 
> One related question: When I calibrate, should I dial down the gain on the external amps to level match with the rears? And then after calibration, dial the gains back up to set the front/rear balance i want? Or can I level match just by lowering the output in the MS8 itself? I do have access to a PC-based RTA, so either way is no issue.


You will have to level match pre-calibration. You cannot change the level of the MS-8 internal amp, so you have to use the gain on your amp to match the fronts to the rears.


----------



## phatz314

kaigoss69 said:


> You will have to level match pre-calibration. You cannot change the level of the MS-8 internal amp, so you have to use the gain on your amp to match the fronts to the rears.


:beerchug:


----------



## sheetzdw

dileepsv said:


> wish i knew ur answer sheetzdw..
> however, another quick question from a new user of this product: Do all of you have FLAT EQ from your Headunit while using the MS8? and just use the 31 band equalizer from the MS8 display unit to control everything?


yes I can turn off factory surround sound looks like I have to use high level inputs though


----------



## ousooner2

Guys, I've got an MS-8 and when I sold the car and was removing everything, I dropped the screen and bam. Cracked. 


Now I can't find one. I e-mailed Harman Kardon and they said they're out of stock and don't know when to expect more, which sounds horrible. I mean come on JBL! My MS-8 is a paperweight unless I can find another. 

HELP!


----------



## 14642

Well...for 20 bucks, you could buy one of these. Amazon.com: Harman Kardon DP 1US Drive and Play In-Vehicle Interface and Controller: Car Electronics

Then, you'll have to take the display assembly apart and swap ONLY the display. It'll be a huge PITA, but it is the same part.


----------



## ousooner2

Ugh lol. I don't like huge PITA things. I REALLY hope they get some in soon, but it's not looking too good.


----------



## jbholsters

Hey guys I installed an ms8 a few days ago and have a few questions.

First I am running:
tw-morel supremo piccolo
mid-Hybrid Legatia L6.5
subs-IDQ 12's
JL 900/5 HD
Alpine 535HD
MS8

So, I set the gains on the amp to just below clipping as a reference. Then I start the MS8 setup. When I get to the level check, I bust out the RTA and readjust the amp gains (lowering as needed) to get the response as flat as possible. Then I continue with the ms8 setup. I set the level to -35 on the ms8, and found that moving my head slightly to the center of the car gets the image pretty close to center. After the calibration is done, I unplug the mic, turn off logic 7, turn the volume on the ms8 up to -10 or -5 and take a listen. Sounds terrible. The highs are way too loud, there is no mid bass and the sub level is very low. If I hit defeat, the subs sound great (tight and clean), and the midbass is insane. If I go into the eq when the system is active and adjust the mids to try and get the midbass back, I get clipping. Am I missing something? Any suggestions? This is very disappointing.


----------



## kaigoss69

jbholsters said:


> Hey guys I installed an ms8 a few days ago and have a few questions.
> 
> First I am running:
> tw-morel supremo piccolo
> mid-Hybrid Legatia L6.5
> subs-IDQ 12's
> JL 900/5 HD
> Alpine 535HD
> MS8
> 
> So, I set the gains on the amp to just below clipping as a reference. Then I start the MS8 setup. When I get to the level check, I bust out the RTA and readjust the amp gains (lowering as needed) to get the response as flat as possible. Then I continue with the ms8 setup. I set the level to -35 on the ms8, and found that moving my head slightly to the center of the car gets the image pretty close to center. After the calibration is done, I unplug the mic, turn off logic 7, turn the volume on the ms8 up to -10 or -5 and take a listen. Sounds terrible. The highs are way too loud, there is no mid bass and the sub level is very low. If I hit defeat, the subs sound great (tight and clean), and the midbass is insane. If I go into the eq when the system is active and adjust the mids to try and get the midbass back, I get clipping. Am I missing something? Any suggestions? This is very disappointing.


First, I would suggest calibrating without the sub. Let the mid bass play down to say 35Hz. Set the mid bass gain at about 11 o'clock, then match the tweeter gain. Now calibrate and listen carefully. If it still sounds off, decrease the calibration volume to -40 and try again.

After you get the mids and tweets playing together nicely, set it up with the subwoofer (80Hz, 24 dB), with the sub gain all the way down. If you can feel the sub sweep, it is still too loud! If the sub is too low or too boomy, increase the gain in small inrements and recalibrate until it is nicely integrated. 

If after all that you cannot get much mid bass, you may need some further tweaking.

Oh, and cover the tweeters during the first sweep, since you want T/A to be set to the mids and not the tweets!


----------



## jbholsters

thanks for the advise. I'll give it a try. Maybe I should just find another H701, like I have in the car. LOL


----------



## chofilena

Guys i have a question regarding logic 7 and the rear speakers polarity. if I turn off logic 7 polarity seems right but if I turn it on, it sounds awful and cracking. I'm using My disc as my test CD. Is this really the way it is or I have a problem?


----------



## venkiee

Here is my setup.. Would I be able to get a Logic7 sound? Please advise


----------



## t3sn4f2

venkiee said:


> Here is my setup.. Would I be able to get a Logic7 sound? Please advise


Looks fine to me but I think you'd have better results if you run the front left/right fully active and wire the sides and rear together in parallel. Pick sides and no rear during calibration then.


----------



## 14642

chofilena said:


> Guys i have a question regarding logic 7 and the rear speakers polarity. if I turn off logic 7 polarity seems right but if I turn it on, it sounds awful and cracking. I'm using My disc as my test CD. Is this really the way it is or I have a problem?


Logic7 steers only ambient information in the recording to the rear. Rear and side speakers aren't intended to be heard by themselves. If you don't like it, turn it off and move the fader to the front.


----------



## chofilena

Thanks Andy. Can you recommend a good x-over setting, this is how I set mine.
Channel 1 front left mid/ tweeters on passive x-over 
Channel 2 front left woofer @400hz
Channel 3 rear left coaxial speakers @100hz
Channel 4 Center speaker @200hz
Channel 5 front right mid/tweeters 
Channel 6 front right woofer 
Channel 7 rear right coaxial
Channel 8 sub @80hz
Please advice if you think my setting is off. Thanks


----------



## david in germany

Sticking a book mark in here as I just installed the MS-8 in my E87 118i. I swapped out the stock base front speakers with original L7 components (4" and tweets) added a custom PSI 10" sub on a fosgate PBR300x1 and I am waiting for the rear L7 3.5" mids to arrive.
Once I found that I had a disconnected rear mid I recalibrated and all seems tight and accurate. I am planning my center channel build with a single 2" full range in the stock dash storage box also. 
I have an hour commute ahead of me in the am to get acquainted with it.


----------



## t3sn4f2

david in germany said:


> Sticking a book mark in here as I just installed the MS-8 in my E87 118i. I swapped out the stock base front speakers with original L7 components (4" and tweets) added a custom PSI 10" sub on a fosgate PBR300x1 and I am waiting for the rear L7 3.5" mids to arrive.
> Once I found that I had a disconnected rear mid I recalibrated and all seems tight and accurate. I am planning my center channel build with a single 2" full range in the stock dash storage box also.
> I have an hour commute ahead of me in the am to get acquainted with it.


A 2" is too small for a center application, it's going to have virtually no output at ~200Hz and is going to severely limit your system's dynamic range. You'd be much better off not using a center altogether. Do you care about sound quality for more than the driver's seat? Because if not then a center is not as crucial.


----------



## david in germany

Thanks for the input, I ordered these two to test.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-1046
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-226
If I don't like he way it sounds I won't do a permanent install.
The Dayton should get low enough but I went with an 8ohm so the ms-8 doesn't over power it.


----------



## subwoofery

david in germany said:


> Thanks for the input, I ordered these two to test.
> Vifa NE65W-04 2" Full Range Woofer 264-1046
> Dayton Audio ND91-8 3-1/2" Aluminum Cone Full-Range Driver 8 290-226
> If I don't like he way it sounds I won't do a permanent install.
> The Dayton should get low enough but I went with an 8ohm so the ms-8 doesn't over power it.


Cancel your order and order those two: 
Scan-Speak 

Kelvin


----------



## david in germany

subwoofery said:


> Cancel your order and order those two:
> Scan-Speak
> 
> Kelvin


Are the scans just that much better than what I have already ordered?


----------



## t3sn4f2

david in germany said:


> Are the scans just that much better than what I have already ordered?


Probably won't even be noticeable. But if you are going to stretch a 2" that low, and you can't evaluate each one before buying then those scans would be the ones to take the gamble on. Or the Aura 2" NS offering. Both seem have a little more throw then the Vifa. Less sensitive but should get a little lower. Model them and see which works best for you app. The Vifa Like Peerless has the advantage of not having a pole vent which is helpful if your mounting depth is very shallow.

As for the Dayton 3.5, it'll play lower and louder than the other two but not as clean without and probably with a tweeter when compared to the other two 2"s. And I can think of a bunch of other drivers that size I'd rather use with and without a tweeter instead of that one. Response looks really ragged and very high inductance. But hell, who knows *you* might like.


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> Looks fine to me but I think you'd have better results if you run the front left/right fully active and wire the sides and rear together in parallel. Pick sides and no rear during calibration then.


I agree with this.


----------



## skathe

so i finally got my ms installed and had a couple questions regarding my setup. I have ran 4x JL C3-650's with their xovers in my car (acura tsx) so i got a 6.5 woofer and tweeter each ran to the JL xover that came with it. If i wired all of this individually to the MS8 i wouldnt have enough outputs for my subs so i kept it wired with xovers to reduce cabling and have enough available outputs. Could only pull signal for 4 speaker inputs and a subwoofer from stock amp anyways.

my input list:
chan 1 - front left speaker and tweeter
chan 2 - front right speaker and tweeter
chan 3 - rear right speaker and tweeter
chan 4 - rear left speaker and tweeter
chan5-7 is not used
chan 8 is stock subwoofer

output list 
chan 1 and 2 goes to front speakers
chan 3 and 4 goes to rear speakers
chan 5 and 6 are unused
chan 7 and 8 are for subs

So my question is how do i set my xover? ive stumbled through the thread but there is so much information to go through.

i wanted to set up 1way fronts and 1 way rears but i cant seem to set a 1way rear without setting a 1way side etc. So my current config is one way front, one way side (rears) and subs. Is this only configurable with 3 pairs of speakers? My speakers are components.

Problem im facing after the install is the tweeters are popping a little at high volumes but other than that it sounds great


----------



## david in germany

use "Side" for the rears. Don't worry that they are in the rear, the MS-8 will know where they are when it does the sweep. 
Check that you have both volumes set properly for the signal sweeps (-25)otherwise your tweets may be getting to much signal to match the rest of the speakers and also check that the bass and treble are flat on the deck before you start.


----------



## skathe

ah that may have been my problem, everything else was flat except volume on ms8 way higher then -25, will retune and let you know.

So 1 way would be the right setup for those speakers?


----------



## stylngle2003

you could always tell MS8 that the "front" signal coming from your stock amp should be running mids on 1 pair of channels (like 1,2) and tweeters on the other pair (3,4) to run those active, have the rear signal from the stock amp drive the rears to their passive cross overs (which you would call sides, L/R from 5/6) and then keep 7/8 for subs. 

if you run your tweeters actively, you should put something like a pair of 20uF capacitors in line to protect them JIC.


----------



## 14642

No need to feed the rear outputs of the factory deck into MS-8.


----------



## pjc

I'm about to install a MS8 on the stock deck in my Flex. Any difference if I run high level in or use a LOC and run RCA in? Being that I might eventually go to an aftermarket deck I figure I'll run RCA regardless at least from the front to the MS8. Figured I could just put a LOC behind the deck and go that direction. Just curious if there would be any benefit.


----------



## david in germany

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No need to feed the rear outputs of the factory deck into MS-8.


Andy, I had luck that the ms-8 picks up my PDC when I use front and rear inputs from my Dynavin.  I can see that it may be the only benefit with using front and rear inputs on a stock BMW deck.


----------



## david in germany

pjc said:


> I'm about to install a MS8 on the stock deck in my Flex. Any difference if I run high level in or use a LOC and run RCA in? Being that I might eventually go to an aftermarket deck I figure I'll run RCA regardless at least from the front to the MS8. Figured I could just put a LOC behind the deck and go that direction. Just curious if there would be any benefit.


I would thing that the signal would be more "pure" without the loc. you can always add the RCA cables when you install the new deck.


----------



## t3sn4f2

david in germany said:


> I would thing that the signal would be more "pure" without the loc. you can always add the RCA cables when you install the new deck.


x2

The MS-8 already has a very high quality LOC built in.


----------



## pjc

t3sn4f2 said:


> x2
> 
> The MS-8 already has a very high quality LOC built in.


True. Thanks guys.


----------



## chofilena

What is the best way to tune the subwoofer and the mid woofer? Why is my subwoofer overly loud and has a lot of rambling sound and stays long or delayed . Is it because I'm using a slotted box, would it be better using a sealed box? How do I do calibration? 
With seats down?
With subwoofer RCA unplug during the sweep?
With subwoofer box outside the car?
Or just the normal?


----------



## 14642

chofilena said:


> What is the best way to tune the subwoofer and the mid woofer? Why is my subwoofer overly loud and has a lot of rambling sound and stays long or delayed . Is it because I'm using a slotted box, would it be better using a sealed box? How do I do calibration?
> With seats down?
> With subwoofer RCA unplug during the sweep?
> With subwoofer box outside the car?
> Or just the normal?


Turn the crossover off on your subwoofer amplifier--or set it to it's highest frequency before calibration.


----------



## david in germany

I have tried calibrating with the sub in the back seat and in the back of the car and in the back with the seats lowered. If I calibrate with the sub in the back seat the sub is too loud for the system. If I calibrate with it in the back is seems to low. I may try turning the gains down and then after calibration adding a bit more bottom end. I still don't think I have enough low end in my underseat woofers. The highs are strong and sharp though almost too strong.


----------



## skathe

i tuned/recalibrated at the recommended -25 but my front tweeters are still popping at high volumes and this wasnt happening before the ms8 install, any recommendations?

EDIT: see page 365 for my setup, i figured this has to have something to do with my xover setup


----------



## chofilena

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Turn the crossover off on your subwoofer amplifier--or set it to it's highest frequency before calibration.


Did that but still over powering with lots of rumble.


----------



## subwoofery

chofilena said:


> Did that but still over powering with lots of rumble.


What level do you calibrate? Closer to -25 or -40? 
Try to increase your subwoofer amp's gain and recalibrate. 

Kelvin


----------



## chofilena

subwoofery said:


> What level do you calibrate? Closer to -25 or -40?
> Try to increase your subwoofer amp's gain and recalibrate.
> 
> Kelvin


I set my amp at 2v and calibrated it at -55db. Do I always need to use the MS-8 CD if I change x-over settings?


----------



## david in germany

chofilena said:


> I set my amp at 2v and calibrated it at -55db. Do I always need to use the MS-8 CD if I change x-over settings?


No, just skip the input setup.


----------



## subwoofery

chofilena said:


> I set my amp at 2v and calibrated it at -55db. Do I always need to use the MS-8 CD if I change x-over settings?


-55dB seems a bit low. Try -45dB and tell us how it sounds. 
If that doesn't change a thing, try to increase the gain on the sub amp and recalibrate. 

Kelvin


----------



## chofilena

subwoofery said:


> -55dB seems a bit low. Try -45dB and tell us how it sounds.
> If that doesn't change a thing, try to increase the gain on the sub amp and recalibrate.
> 
> Kelvin


Tried -50, -45, -40 and -45 seems to sound best. Rumbling sound is controlled, bass is less and tighter, even mid woofers got tighter. But sub is still little bit loud for my taste but sounds a lot better now. I guess I'll do the fine tuning on the EQ, SUB and BASS settings on the MS-8. Thanks for the help.


----------



## 14642

Use the 31 band EQ. That's what it's there for.


----------



## DonH

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Use the 31 band EQ. That's what it's there for.


my thoughts... Not sure how many people overlook the thing.

To the fellow having overbearing bass, what substage are you running?


----------



## chofilena

DonH said:


> my thoughts... Not sure how many people overlook the thing.
> 
> To the fellow having overbearing bass, what substage are you running?


I'm sorry i don't understand substage but i set my sub as what the manual says. Subsonic filter 20hz @12db, freq. 80hz @24db.
After the input set-up (okokok) and before calibration. I set the ms-8 vol at -45 but how do i set the volume of the head unit??? Should i leave the vol as is when i get the OK's or should i turn off 0 volume during calibration? I set my headunits vol 0 when i calibrate.


----------



## DonH

What equipment are you running regarding you subwoofer


----------



## david in germany

chofilena said:


> I'm sorry i don't understand substage but i set my sub as what the manual says. Subsonic filter 20hz @12db, freq. 80hz @24db.
> After the input set-up (okokok) and before calibration. I set the ms-8 vol at -45 but how do i set the volume of the head unit??? Should i leave the vol as is when i get the OK's or should i turn off 0 volume during calibration? I set my headunits vol 0 when i calibrate.


When calibrating the deck does not matter. The only time the deck is a concern is when you are setting the input.


----------



## chofilena

My set-up
Output:
1 FLhi CDT ES03(midrange) passive xover DTR25(tweeters) RF400-4T(ch1) [email protected](kickpanels)
2 FL lo CDT ES-600(woofer) RF400-4P bridged(ch1 and 2)
3 SL coaxial MS-8 [email protected]
4 CTR MBquart 100KN-S RF400-4T bridged ch3 and 4) [email protected]
5 FRhi RF400-4T(ch2)
6 FR lo RF400-4P bridged(ch3 and 4)
7 SR
8 Sub1 TC Epic10 RF500-1(slotted box tune at 16.22msec/27.75)
subsonic filter [email protected], sub/front [email protected]

Do you think i should put my sub on a sealed enclosure?


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

I have had the MS-8 now for over a year, love it! It practically sells itself when people hear the difference it makes. It has a lot of improvements though.

One thing that I never realized until now, is that my 6-1/2 door speakers produce absolutely no mid bass. I removed my subwoofer and realized that, even at high volume, my component speakers do not vibrate the car, even a little bit. Music sounds so lifeless because of that. 

I have a 2009 Mitsubishi Lancer with Rockford Fosgate system running stock speakers, which are bi-amplified. So, the 6-1/2 speakers are powered separately from the tweeters. I think my midrange drivers are crossed over at 65Hz and the tweeter is at 2000Hz on the MS-8 and I am pretty sure the amp crossovers are set to not hinder that, I don't think it has a full range switch. 

Should I choose different crossover points? Idk what the stop crossover points are. I don't remember if my slopes are 12dB or 24dB, I think 12.


----------



## t3sn4f2

DuffmasterFresh said:


> I have had the MS-8 now for over a year, love it! It practically sells itself when people hear the difference it makes. It has a lot of improvements though.
> 
> One thing that I never realized until now, is that my 6-1/2 door speakers produce absolutely no mid bass. I removed my subwoofer and realized that, even at high volume, my component speakers do not vibrate the car, even a little bit. Music sounds so lifeless because of that.
> 
> I have a 2009 Mitsubishi Lancer with Rockford Fosgate system running stock speakers, which are bi-amplified. So, the 6-1/2 speakers are powered separately from the tweeters. I think my midrange drivers are crossed over at 65Hz and the tweeter is at 2000Hz on the MS-8 and I am pretty sure the amp crossovers are set to not hinder that, I don't think it has a full range switch.
> 
> Should I choose different crossover points? Idk what the stop crossover points are. I don't remember if my slopes are 12dB or 24dB, I think 12.


Try 80Hz and 3.2kHz, both 24dB/oct


----------



## Golden Ear

You should definitely be hearing some midbass with the crossover set to 65hz. That's what I have mine set to and my Arians sound great. You might need to replace your 6&1/2"s cuz raising the crossover point isn't going to help. Try playing with the eq and raising it on the 65-200hz range to see if that helps. Do one frequency at a time.


----------



## kaigoss69

Are you sure the lack of midbass is not an install issue? How does it sound when you turn L7 and processing off?


----------



## 14642

First, check the polarity of the midbass speakers. Make sure they're correct. Then, raise the crossover point as someone else suggested. Contrary to what most people believe, the subwoofer is much better at making 50-70Hz than the little door speakers are. If that still doesn't fix it, reverse the polarity of the subwoofer and calibrate one more time. 

Be HAPPY if the car sounds great without the speakers moving a lot. That's GOOD. It minimizes distortion. This idea that if speakers aren't moving back and forth an inch something must be wrong is unfortunately the product of SPL wars...sigh...


----------



## cycfari

Hi Andy,

I just add in 2 x 10" sub in my rear trunk & find that it's very boomy & doesn't really blend well with my 7" midbass. Tried different Gain settings @ 70-80/24dB (Sub1 & 2) without any improvements.

My current Front is 1 way component set powered off a 2 channel amp. Center is 2 way Active (200Hz & 2.5kHz/24dB) powered by 2 channel amp too.

Sides are 6.5" coaxial powered off MS8 @ 200Hz/24dB.

As I have 2 spare channels, is it better to configure my front as 2 way & configure the subs as LF & LR?

Also does Sides helps to improve the SQ if they're powered Off the MS8 or should I ditched the 2 Sides?

Thanks.


----------



## kaigoss69

The MS-8 does not correct phase issues in the bass region. I already knew that, sort of, but I had to prove it. The first RTA was taken with the sub and mid-bass out of phase, the second with the two in phase. Both times I calibrated and gave the processor the chance to make the necessary corrections. So the lesson here is make sure you take care of phase issues before you calibrate and don't assume the processor will fix it.


----------



## david in germany

cycfari said:


> Hi Andy,
> 
> I just add in 2 x 10" sub in my rear trunk & find that it's very boomy & doesn't really blend well with my 7" midbass. Tried different Gain settings @ 70-80/24dB (Sub1 & 2) without any improvements.
> 
> My current Front is 1 way component set powered off a 2 channel amp. Center is 2 way Active (200Hz & 2.5kHz/24dB) powered by 2 channel amp too.
> 
> Sides are 6.5" coaxial powered off MS8 @ 200Hz/24dB.
> 
> As I have 2 spare channels, is it better to configure my front as 2 way & configure the subs as LF & LR?
> 
> Also does Sides helps to improve the SQ if they're powered Off the MS8 or should I ditched the 2 Sides?
> 
> Thanks.


Try dropping your crossover frequencies lower on your components, 100hz or below. 200 seems to high. Even my little 4" sounded better at 100. With your 6.5's I would be willing to try it even down to 60hz or so.


----------



## AAAAAAA

Just changed the polarity on my sub and that really did it. Great tip.


----------



## kaigoss69

david in germany said:


> Try dropping your crossover frequencies lower on your components, 100hz or below. 200 seems to high. Even my little 4" sounded better at 100. With your 6.5's I would be willing to try it even down to 60hz or so.


Sides/rears should not be run under 100Hz because they are out of phase with the fronts and would create havoc with the mid-bass.


----------



## AAAAAAA

kaigoss69 said:


> Sides/rears should not be run under 100Hz because they are out of phase with the fronts and would create havoc with the mid-bass.


That doesn't seem right as logic 7 creates ambiance and doesn't simply replicate what the fronts get.

Also if logic 7 is disabled it won't cancel out so much as it will "level" the peaks and vallies of the FR response throught out the vehicule.


----------



## kaigoss69

AAAAAAA said:


> That doesn't seem right as logic 7 creates ambiance and doesn't simply replicate what the fronts get.
> 
> Also if logic 7 is disabled it won't cancel out so much as it will "level" the peaks and vallies of the FR response throught out the vehicule.


Here, number 5:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1236171-post16.html


----------



## AAAAAAA

^Time for another input output setup and calibration haha

thanks!


----------



## Todd Hall

Gearing up Buick Verano 9 total speakers planned
Goal is quality audio at reasonable spending. Not looking for the loudest system
I am planning to use the existing Buick Intellilink head unit with the MS-08. my car came with the factory non navigation radio with six speakers.
This is what I purchased so far:
1) GM/Bose 3.5" Center Channel speaker from their premium system to be powered by the MS-08
2) 2 CDT Audio ES-0690 GOLD 6 X9 Subwoofers (Opting not to have trunk subwoofer this round)
3) JBL MS-A5001 Subwoofer amplifier for the two 6X9s MS-08 line out
4) Infinity Kappa 60.11cs 6.75" Component Car Speakers for the front doors and tweeter locations
5) Infinity Kappa 62.11i 6.75" 2-Way Car Speakers for the rear doors

So I have some questions now.
a) Is the MS-08 going to be replaced by JBL, or are they leaving the market. The MS line appears to be going away.
b) Do I power the Infinity speakers by the MS-08 or do I need a separate amp for them
c) Is there any reason that I would need the DSP functions of JBL's MS-A1004, or is this just redundant
d) I have not figured out where any amplifier would go. I expect the MS-08 would mount in back rear left of trunk and MS-A5001 in rear right. Hoping any amplifier would fit under passenger seat where my last car had an Alpine unit

Any advice would be helpful.


----------



## Wy2quiet

Todd Hall said:


> Gearing up Buick Verano 9 total speakers planned
> Goal is quality audio at reasonable spending. Not looking for the loudest system
> I am planning to use the existing Buick Intellilink head unit with the MS-08. my car came with the factory non navigation radio with six speakers.
> This is what I purchased so far:
> 1) GM/Bose 3.5" Center Channel speaker from their premium system to be powered by the MS-08
> 2) 2 CDT Audio ES-0690 GOLD 6 X9 Subwoofers (Opting not to have trunk subwoofer this round)
> 3) JBL MS-A5001 Subwoofer amplifier for the two 6X9s MS-08 line out
> 4) Infinity Kappa 60.11cs 6.75" Component Car Speakers for the front doors and tweeter locations
> 5) Infinity Kappa 62.11i 6.75" 2-Way Car Speakers for the rear doors
> 
> So I have some questions now.
> a) Is the MS-08 going to be replaced by JBL, or are they leaving the market. The MS line appears to be going away.
> b) Do I power the Infinity speakers by the MS-08 or do I need a separate amp for them
> c) Is there any reason that I would need the DSP functions of JBL's MS-A1004, or is this just redundant
> d) I have not figured out where any amplifier would go. I expect the MS-08 would mount in back rear left of trunk and MS-A5001 in rear right. Hoping any amplifier would fit under passenger seat where my last car had an Alpine unit
> 
> Any advice would be helpful.


Welcome to the board, I am from Ottawa also. 
You are going to want to run the components from something other than the MS-8, as it's internal amp in a vehicle that large is not really adequate for moderate-high volumes. Probably best to get a good quality 5 channel to run your subwoofer, and the door speakers. Small and efficient is possible for sure.

Options/examples such as the;
HD900/5 $700-1000
SD1300.5 (I own one, it is a nice amp) $260-500
Zed Leviathan $600-800
Zuki 5 Channel $650
Polk PAD5000.5 $300
NVX 900.5 $300
PDX-V9 $500

You could easily get a 5 channel under your seats. My car is fairly small and I have my hd600/4 under my drivers, and my SD1300.5 under the passenger seat.


----------



## Todd Hall

Wy2quiet said:


> Welcome to the board, I am from Ottawa also.
> You are going to want to run the components from something other than the MS-8, as it's internal amp in a vehicle that large is not really adequate for moderate-high volumes. Probably best to get a good quality 5 channel to run your subwoofer, and the door speakers. Small and efficient is possible for sure.
> 
> Options/examples such as the;
> HD900/5
> SD1300.5 (I own one, it is a nice amp)
> Zed Leviathan
> Zuki 5 Channel


In my post I mentioned that I purchased the JBL MS-A5001 to power the CDT subwoofers. So I only need deal with the Infinity Kappas. As you are from Ottawa, I could use advice on who should install these parts. I will be unable to do this myself (injured). I talked with Derand who said they could install anything I purchased, and of course there is Future Shop.


----------



## AAAAAAA

woa I'm from next to Ottawa (Gatineau).... maybe we could make a GTG to happen


----------



## Wy2quiet

Todd Hall said:


> In my post I mentioned that I purchased the JBL MS-A5001 to power the CDT subwoofers. So I only need deal with the Infinity Kappas. As you are from Ottawa, I could use advice on who should install these parts. I will be unable to do this myself (injured). I talked with Derand who said they could install anything I purchased, and of course there is Future Shop.


Sorry I didn't notice you already bought the sub amp. The good news is an external 4 channel is going to have way more power than a 5 channel. Even though I don't like them personally, a PPI 900.4 is under $200 and will do 150wx4 @ 4 ohms.

As for installation, I did everything myself so I unfortunately have no opinions on the different shops.
Here are there reviews on google:
https://www.google.ca/search?es_sm=...=1&cad=cbv&sei=nZY8UofGBcGxqQGP8IDgBA#lrd=lrd

What you are getting done is pretty easy stuff however, so I would just go with whoever gives you the best deal.

And yeah AAAAAA sounds good I am down sometime.


----------



## AAAAAAA

a) Is the MS-08 going to be replaced by JBL, or are they leaving the market. The MS line appears to be going away.

MS amps do seem to be discontinued. However I haven't see anything official about replacements... If you are worried I can buy\pick up your ms-5001 

b) Do I power the Infinity speakers by the MS-08 or do I need a separate amp for them

seperate amplifier is best. the amp in ms8 is a "chip amp" and not as robust as dedicated one. Basically it should sound better and louder with a seperate amp. It would be recommended.

c) Is there any reason that I would need the DSP functions of JBL's MS-A1004, or is this just redundant

No need but they would match! 

d) I have not figured out where any amplifier would go. I expect the MS-08 would mount in back rear left of trunk and MS-A5001 in rear right. Hoping any amplifier would fit under passenger seat where my last car had an Alpine unit


Hard to say without looking at it.

If you are looking for a shop to install this stuff, you might havea hard time if you didn't buy anything from them. Always touchy.


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## cycfari

david in germany said:


> Try dropping your crossover frequencies lower on your components, 100hz or below. 200 seems to high. Even my little 4" sounded better at 100. With your 6.5's I would be willing to try it even down to 60hz or so.


Thanks, I will try 100 Hz & maybe disable the sides too.


----------



## Todd Hall

I keep purchasing the components for my install in the Verano. My car did not have the Bose audio system

On hand or en route are:
1) JBL MS-08
2) Infinity 60.11cs component for front door and tweeter locations
3) Infinity 62.11i for rear doors
4) JBL MS-A5001 500W Sub-woofer Amp for CDTs
5) CDT ES-0690GOLD 6"X9" Extended bass/mid-bass sub-woofer pair 
6) Rear package shelf assembly for 6"X9" speakers used for Bose system
7) GM/Bose 3.5" Center channel speaker (To be powered by MS-08)

I have yet to purchase a 4-Channel amp to power the Infinity speakers. Tiger Direct is offering the MS-A1004 for $355.88 and Crutchfield for $467.49 (Open Box)

I still must arrange installation and purchase miscellaneous install parts.


----------



## stylngle2003

Are you planning to run the front components from 4 discrete channels? Thus giving you time alignment and dsp functions for each woofer and tweeter separately?
That is probably what I would recommend to allow you to take full advantage of the MS-8's processing abilities. 
Though you could always run the front tweeters and center off the MS-8 outputs, and either choose to bridge the A1004 to the front woofers, keeping the rears on MS-8 power as well, or run front and rear woofers off the A1004 4 channels.

If not, you could bridge the MSA1004 to run each front set with 200W, having MS-8 run your rear speakers and center. 

Whichever way you choose, it should sound great


----------



## Todd Hall

The Infinity 62.11i, 6 1/2" rear door speakers have a recommended RMS amplifier power of 5w to 125w. Continuous average 75w RMS
The Infinity 60.11cs, 6 1/2" front door speakers with 3/4" tweeter and crossover have a recommended RMS amplifier power of 5w to 200w. Continuous average 90w RMS

The MS-A1004 at 100w RMS per channel at 2 or 4 ohms appears well matched for all 4 channels. Reviews of the Infinity speakers set them, at 3 ohms even though box says 2 ohms

Since this time around I'm looking for quality vs quantity, I think we'll be ok.


----------



## stylngle2003

those ratings are by and large meaningless if you feed the speakers the proper signals.

are you planning to keep the Infinity passive crossovers (thus giving up the ability to independently EQ/TA each front woofer and tweeter) or are you planning to run the 4 channels in the front of your car actively where you have control over eq, phase, level and t/a?


----------



## Todd Hall

Yes, there appear to be options here.

Existing plan is to power the power the component set off 2 channels of the MS-A1004, using the provided crossover. I give up treating the tweeter and 6 1/2 separately, but the components are well matched.

Or, I would abandon the crossover and power the tweeters off the MS-08, and just 6 1/2" speakers off MS-A1004

Below is from Infinity website.
Adjustable, push-button tweeter level control
The Infinity Kappa 60.11cs component speakers feature 0-decibel and +3-decibel settings to custom-tune the high frequencies. Custom tuning allows users to optimize the sound for different in-vehicle locations. You can custom-tune your speakers by pushing a button on the passive crossover.

High-quality passive crossover components
The passive filter components in the Infinity Kappa 60.11cs component speakers’ crossover network use only the best parts, including low-loss air core inductors, low-hysteresis polypropylene capacitors and high-quality resistors. They are engineered to require minimal parts for filtering, which also means minimizing phase-related anomalies[/B]. Overall, the combination results in each Kappa Series speaker having a unique filter arrangement with minimal but very effective parts to achieve true high fidelity, clarity and performance.


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## .69077

Are you all just running one set of RCAs into the MS8 and letting it sum the inputs?


----------



## minbari

m249saw said:


> Are you all just running one set of RCAs into the MS8 and letting it sum the inputs?


What is it going to sum with 1 set of inputs. :what:

sent from my phone using digital farts


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## .69077

Thats what it says on the instructions, to connect to just the front L/R inputs

Says specifically DO NOT connect to input on channels 3-8.

Just seems different from other DSPs


----------



## david in germany

I am running front and rears into mine because of my rear pdc. I must have the rears connected for the beeps and I have no issues. I believe the manual says the rear " is not needed" 

Sent from my GT-S7710 using Tapatalk 4


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## Todd Hall

Purchased the MS-A1004. As expected Amazon dropped the price to $307.60 + sales tax if applicable.

Even if JBL has discontinued all of these amplifiers and processors, and replacement would be sold at near list price. As it is, I've spent far more than initially planned on components.


----------



## Darth SQ

Subscribed.


----------



## Todd Hall

I spend much of yesterday reading this thread. As it is now 368 pages, there is much to go through.

Many of the posts read were by Andy Wehmeyer. This would be appropriate considering his past role with Harmon. As I suspected, having a center channel would enhance the experience with the MS-8 controlling the output of my GM touch head unit.

My last build had only side and rear speakers. Speakers were Memphis M-Class components and the amp and head unit were Alpine. 

The goal of this car build requires stealth. Other than possibly having the MS-08 mounted in the trunk, everything should look and function as if GM delivered it. This is a brand new car, and I'm not going to cut it up. It was not necessary in my last build, and I don't plan on doing it here.

I have received some excellent help from this forum already. Any help would be appreciated. I am also still looking for someone to assist with the install.

My vehicle only provides space for a 3.5" speaker for the center. I had hoped to use a Bose/GM 3.5" speaker designed for my car IF I had the Bose system installed. However, reading much of the tread reinforces the old rule of (a chain) only being as strong as the weakest link. Now we have a situation where i have to find the best quality 3.5" speaker to complement the Infinity Kappa 60.11cs components and 62.11i coaxial speakers I have for the sides.

I could purchase an Infinity Kappa 32.9cf or a JBL GTO328 speaker if i wanted to stay with Harmon. They are not exactly of the same series, but appear close. I could also try to find a better 3.5" speaker from other vendors, but I can't seem to find anything offered in this size that would be superior.

After the choice of this center speaker is made, I have the outstanding issue as to where it, and possibly the tweeters from the 60.11cs need to be amplified other than from the MS-8 or just the center from the MS-8.

Summary of design
1) Factory GM Color Touch Intellilink head unit
2) MS-08 (The ORDER of the channels is not determined)
Channel 1 Center speaker powered by MS-08

Powered by JBL MS-1004
Channel 2 LF dash tweeter, LF door mid woofer passive crossover (Infinity 60.11cs)
Channel 3 RF dash tweeter, RF door mid woofer passive crossover (Infinity 60.11cs)
Channel 4 LR door 2 way coaxial (Infinity 60.11i)
Channel 5 RR door 2 way coaxial (Infinity 60.11i)
Channel 6 Unused
Channel 7 Unused

Powered by the JBL MS-A5001
Channel 8 Two CDT ES0690Gold 6"X9" Extended Sub Bass/Mid Bass Woofers in parallel


----------



## stylngle2003

With the ms8, your rears do not need 100w, they receive band passed signal and don't get pushed hard in a normal system. Put them on 2 channels of the ms8 output. 
If it were me, and I understand it isn't, I would put each front tweeter on the ms8, freeing up power to the mids (passive crossovers won't sap power from them). 
Get the best quality center channel you can afford, maybe a gently used HAT L3 (the non-SE version is probably fine) or one of the tangband bamboos or the Dayton rs75. Then run it on one of your two remaining a100.4 channels. Or you could run it on the ms8 and bridge the a100.4 for your mids


----------



## kaigoss69

Todd Hall said:


> I spend much of yesterday reading this thread. As it is now 368 pages, there is much to go through.
> 
> Many of the posts read were by Andy Wehmeyer. This would be appropriate considering his past role with Harmon. As I suspected, having a center channel would enhance the experience with the MS-8 controlling the output of my GM touch head unit.
> 
> My last build had only side and rear speakers. Speakers were Memphis M-Class components and the amp and head unit were Alpine.
> 
> The goal of this car build requires stealth. Other than possibly having the MS-08 mounted in the trunk, everything should look and function as if GM delivered it. This is a brand new car, and I'm not going to cut it up. It was not necessary in my last build, and I don't plan on doing it here.
> 
> I have received some excellent help from this forum already. Any help would be appreciated. I am also still looking for someone to assist with the install.
> 
> My vehicle only provides space for a 3.5" speaker for the center. I had hoped to use a Bose/GM 3.5" speaker designed for my car IF I had the Bose system installed. However, reading much of the tread reinforces the old rule of (a chain) only being as strong as the weakest link. Now we have a situation where i have to find the best quality 3.5" speaker to complement the Infinity Kappa 60.11cs components and 62.11i coaxial speakers I have for the sides.
> 
> I could purchase an Infinity Kappa 32.9cf or a JBL GTO328 speaker if i wanted to stay with Harmon. They are not exactly of the same series, but appear close. I could also try to find a better 3.5" speaker from other vendors, but I can't seem to find anything offered in this size that would be superior.
> 
> After the choice of this center speaker is made, I have the outstanding issue as to where it, and possibly the tweeters from the 60.11cs need to be amplified other than from the MS-8 or just the center from the MS-8.
> 
> Summary of design
> 1) Factory GM Color Touch Intellilink head unit
> 2) MS-08 (The ORDER of the channels is not determined)
> Channel 1 Center speaker powered by MS-08
> 
> Powered by JBL MS-1004
> Channel 2 LF dash tweeter, LF door mid woofer passive crossover (Infinity 60.11cs)
> Channel 3 RF dash tweeter, RF door mid woofer passive crossover (Infinity 60.11cs)
> Channel 4 LR door 2 way coaxial (Infinity 60.11i)
> Channel 5 RR door 2 way coaxial (Infinity 60.11i)
> Channel 6 Unused
> Channel 7 Unused
> 
> Powered by the JBL MS-A5001
> Channel 8 Two CDT ES0690Gold 6"X9" Extended Sub Bass/Mid Bass Woofers in parallel


If you don't mind having a one seat wonder, I'd say forget about the center at the moment and run the fronts active off the JBL amp. Rears off of MS-8.

I'm saying this because you don't have enough amp channels to properly integrate the center. I would not recommend powering it off the MS-8. People always say to do this as it is an easy way to find another amp channel, but the center really needs to get the same amount of power as the door speakers, otherwise it won't work very well (speaking from experience). Also, if the center is smaller and from a different brand, it will be more difficult to get it integrated. Lastly (if you still want to put one in), the center needs a tweeter, so either a widebander or a coax would be required.


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> If you don't mind having a one seat wonder, I'd say forget about the center at the moment and run the fronts active off the JBL amp. Rears off of MS-8.
> 
> I'm saying this because you don't have enough amp channels to properly integrate the center. I would not recommend powering it off the MS-8. People always say to do this as it is an easy way to find another amp channel, but the center really needs to get the same amount of power as the door speakers, otherwise it won't work very well (speaking from experience). Also, if the center is smaller and from a different brand, it will be more difficult to get it integrated. Lastly (if you still want to put one in), the center needs a tweeter, so either a widebander or a coax would be required.


I think I agree with this regarding amps, but not necessarily about the brand of the center channels speaker. That's a routine recommendation for home audio systems where less equalization is required at high frequencies, but MS-8 is going to match the frequency response of the center no matter what you put up there.

Please resist the urge to use a center channel that has no tweeter. This wideband ******** is just that. Use a tweeter.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I think I agree with this regarding amps, but not necessarily about the brand of the center channels speaker. That's a routine recommendation for home audio systems where less equalization is required at high frequencies, but MS-8 is going to match the frequency response of the center no matter what you put up there.
> 
> *Please resist the urge to use a center channel that has no tweeter. This wideband ******** is just that. Use a tweeter*.


I'd go with one of these in his case since he doesn't want to mod anything and the OE grill probably won't allow for a tweeter next to his center slot. 

Showroom - Custom Installation - Ci Series - Speakers Selector - Ci80.2QR - KEF United States




















Minus the removal cup of course. Also being architectural speakers they are sold individually so that's helpful.


----------



## Todd Hall

I had a rather long reply typed out last night, only to lose it. Here we try again.

I'm stuck with the space for a center channel that GM has provided. 

GM puts 3.5" speakers from Bose in the Verano and Pioneer in the Cruze in this spot. The speaker is a mid/high range speaker. Twiddler®. I do not see a separate tweeter on this piece The illustration shows speaker placement. I'm just using quality parts instead of GM/Bose.

https://media.gm.com/content/Pages/...res/Buick_Verano_Bose System Illustration.pdf



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> It's always better with a center and I'd go with a 4" rather than nothing, unless you don't care at all about the passenger's seat. Then no center is required. I prefer the surround speakers in the sides. That tends to widen the stage a bit, but rear is fine too.


I have researched nearly all 3.5" speakers that I can find on the Internet. This includes all the manufacturers listed in the Speaker Buying Guide issue of PAS mag. It turns out that the Infinity 32.9cf has the highest power handling of the bunch, 35W RMS and 105W peak.

A 4" maybe what I end up with. I measured the Twiddler® last night.
Infinity's 4" 42.9 measurements are close to this part. There are some concerns. The dome may protrude higher than grill on the dash. The basket maybe slightly too wide, and their could be an obstruction at the bottom. It's power handling improves to 50W RMS, 150W peak.

Of course choosing this part means another amp. So adding another MS-A1004 plus the cost of a pair (arrgh) of the 42.9 increases build cost $400.


----------



## Todd Hall

I prepared a quick PowerPoint slide to illustrate the design. It appears small, but it should scale up

1) Buick Intellilink Head Unit feeds MS-8 located left rear of trunk behind wheel well
2) JBL MS-8 feeds JBL MS-A1004 (1) under left front seat
3) JBL MS-8 feeds JBL MS-A1004 (2) under right front seat
4) JBL MS-8 feeds JBL MS-5001 Subwoofer amp in right rear of trunk behind wheel well
5) JBL MS-1004 (1) feed left Infinity Kappa 60.11cs tweeter in dashboard
6) JBL MS-1004 (1) feeds right Infinity Kappa 60.11cs tweeter in dashboard
7) JBL MS-1004 (1) feeds center Infinity Kappa 42.9 coax in dashboard
8) Infinity Kappa 60.11cs Xovers not used. Without the Xover, I'll need something to protect the tweeters
9) JBL MS-A1004 (2) feeds left front door kick panel Infinity Kappa 60.11cs midwoofer
10) JBL MS-A1004 (2) feeds left rear door kick panel Infinity Kappa 62.11i coax
11) JBL MS-A1004 (2) feeds right front door kick panel Infinity Kappa 60.11cs midwoofer
12) JBL MS-A1004 (2) feeds right rear door kick panel Infinity Kappa 62.11 i coax
13) JBL MS-A5001 feeds two CDT ES0690Gold 6X9 Subwoofers in parallel, located in rear parcel shelf. (parcel shelf swapped out for the Bose version with grilles


----------



## david in germany

Ok all, I need an opinion. I am working on my center channel now. I have picked up a pair of JBL 4" 2 ways and realized I have room for both in the center of the dash. I think it will be the same amount of effort to build it with the pair as it would for the single. They would be run off of one channel of the MS8 at 2 ohms. 

Bottom line, should I run one or run them both?

Thanks for any and all input.

By the way, Government shutdowns and furloughs suck A55.


----------



## stylngle2003

Todd, you don't need to amplify your rear door speakers, let the MS8 feed them 30w. 
If you're adding a second Msa1004, I would still consider bridging 4 of your channels down to 2 to drive your mids, using the remaining 4 to drive tweeters, and if it should work out that way, the center mid and high channels. Or bridge the center two channels to match the front left/right. 
I have been where it seems like you are, but don't stress or even think about manufacturer power ratings or brand names. In the end, they aren't really important.


----------



## RickA1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Connect MS-8 to the front and sub outputs of the factory amplifier. *Make sure that the REM output lead of MS-8 is used to turn on the factory amplifier, if a REM turn on input is included in the harness from the head to the amp.* You're not going to have cleaner or better sound by hassling endlessly with connecting to the INPUT of the amp. In many cases, that sounds worse because the output voltage of the factory head is so low. USE THE SPEAKER OUTPUT OF THE FACTORY AMP.
> 
> Then, connect MS-8 to the speakers. or to amplifiers that are connected to the speakers. DON'T leave any of the speakers connected to the output of the factory amplifier. Once everything is connected, continue following the instructions. They explain how to set up the unit.


I am getting ready to install an MS-8 in a Sonata with the Dimension system. It has a stock amp in the trunk. I've been reading this thread to get tips and got to this post.

Why does the stock amp need to receive the remote from the MS-8? What would happen if the MS-8 gets a separate remote lead? I think I know which is the remote lead in the stock amp's harness....but would still like to know what would happen in case I don't find it.

I should probably mention that after the MS-8 there will be another amp, and this one will get the remote from the MS-8.

Thanks!!!

Oh, and I also wanted to say THANKS!!!! to everyone that has contributed here. Not an easy read...... but I've learned a lot!!


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## Todd Hall

Option 2 without a second MS-A1004.
I rarely have rear passengers, however I don't want to screw up imaging in the front. 

I prepared a second PowerPoint slide to illustrate the design. 
1) Buick Intellilink Head Unit feeds MS-8 located left rear of trunk behind wheel well
2) JBL MS-8 feeds JBL MS-A1004 under left front seat
3) JBL MS-8 feeds JBL MS-A5001 under right front seat
4) JBL MS-1004 (1) feeds left Infinity Kappa 60.11cs xover 
5) left xover feeds 60.11cs tweeter in dash 
6) left xover feeds 60.11cs 6.5" midwoofer in door kick panel 
7) JBL MS-1004 feeds right Infinity Kappa 60.11cs xover 
8) right xover feeds 60.11cs tweeter in dash 
9) right xover feeds 60.11cs 6.5" midwoofer in door kick panel 
10) JBL MS-A1004 feeds center Infinity kappa 42.9i in dash
11) JBL MS-8 feeds left rear door kick panel Infinity Kappa 62.11i coax
12) JBL MS-8 feeds right rear door kick panel Infinity Kappa 62.11 i coax
13) JBL MS-A5001 feeds two CDT ES0690Gold 6X9 Subwoofers in parallel, located in rear parcel shelf. (parcel shelf swapped out for the Bose version with grilles


----------



## ansuser

Hello, guys!
I have a question regarding side/rear speakers usage with MS8.

With Logic 7 enabled, what is necessary frequency range for side/rear channels?
Do these channels get full range signal or some kind of bandpass filtration?

I am trying to figure out if it is worth replacing stock rear door speakers mounted dramatically "off-axis" to driver's position with something fullrange, smaller size (3.5") and more "on-axis" to driver to get better "ambience" effect...


----------



## david in germany

david in germany said:


> Ok all, I need an opinion. I am working on my center channel now. I have picked up a pair of JBL 4" 2 ways and realized I have room for both in the center of the dash. I think it will be the same amount of effort to build it with the pair as it would for the single. They would be run off of one channel of the MS8 at 2 ohms.
> 
> Bottom line, should I run one or run them both?
> 
> Thanks for any and all input.
> 
> By the way, Government shutdowns and furloughs suck A55.


No reply.  I went ahead and set it up for a single 4" in the dash. I am waiting for the glue to set on the center box before I start with the filler to make it pretty. I ended up buying a complete new center box 2 weeks ago and started cutting it till the pair of speakers fit it. Then decided 2 in the center dash may over power the sides. And then built the mounting plate and used ca rubberized glue to hold it together. 
Tomorrow I hope I can start part 2... I have a bit of time since I am furloughed... Not sure how long it will last so I have to do everything with stuff I already have and not spend any money I may need to survive.


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## stylngle2003

I think you may run into issues with comb filtering if you mounted 2 indentical drivers in your center location, but haven't tried it myself


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## david in germany

stylngle2003 said:


> I think you may run into issues with comb filtering if you mounted 2 indentical drivers in your center location, but haven't tried it myself


I don't see how, on one channel on the MS-8 and the MS-8 would be in control.


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## RickA1

Apologize for bringing my question back so soon.....but I am really waiting just for this to install. I am installing the MS-8 in between the stock amp (Sonata with Dimension System) and an aftermarket amp (Polk PA D5000.5). 

I think I know which the remote lead is coming into the stock amp (Number 7 in the diagram below, blue wire). 

My question.......if this is not the remote lead, what would be the consequences of using a separate remote into the MS-8, and then from the MS-8 to the Polk amp?

Thanks for your help. You guys and this thread are awesome!!!


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## michaelkingdom

After three happy years, I just had to recalibrate as I had my worked on - installed new tweeter housings in sail panel. I'm not getting any center image. It used to be dead center and now it sounds like it is coming from around me. I flipped polarity on a tweeter to see if that was the problem - no. Could the earphones/microphones be broken and the MS-8 not calibrating correctly?


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## SergeRus

Hi, I'm from Russia. I bought JBL MS-8. Wanted to improve the sound of my regular Mercedes GLK. Done in a studio in Moscow. Noise insulation doors, catwalks tweeters. The system is a ScanSpeak D3004/660000 D3004/660000 - Scan-Speak 1 inch soft dome AirCirc magnet system aluminum faceplate - Europe Audio. Midwoofer Eton A1-160 High Grade Eton A1-160 High Grade Test Car-HiFi-Chassis. Amplifier Eton PA 1054. Subwoofer challenger pro line 10wf in the housing stells.Rear side of the amplifier JBL staff. HF tweeters are powered by JBL amplifier. After settings according to the instructions we hear that the processor was built sound stage in which there is no bass or midrange Midwoofer.
I read a lot of complaints about it. Some even curse processor for flat and lifeless sound. After the experiments, we were able to bring life to the sound of the processor. It's practically the know-how. Open wide the front doors and go through the whole process. You'll see exactly what the bass and middle there. Speakers finally play it right. But .... The scene at the same time is gone. What would the distinguished representatives of HK-JBL? How to get the bass and mids, and the stage? It tried to do in the Moscow studio, one of the top 5 (http://www.accent-audio.ru/install/), but could not. Like many others on this forum. While I was disappointed....


----------



## ansuser

SergeRus said:


> Hi, I'm from Russia. I bought JBL MS-8. Wanted to improve the sound of my regular Mercedes GLK. Done in a studio in Moscow. Noise insulation doors, catwalks tweeters. The system is a ScanSpeak D3004/660000 D3004/660000 - Scan-Speak 1 inch soft dome AirCirc magnet system aluminum faceplate - Europe Audio. Midwoofer Eton A1-160 High Grade Eton A1-160 High Grade Test Car-HiFi-Chassis. Amplifier Eton PA 1054. Subwoofer challenger pro line 10wf in the housing stells.Rear side of the amplifier JBL staff. HF tweeters are powered by JBL amplifier. After settings according to the instructions we hear that the processor was built sound stage in which there is no bass or midrange Midwoofer.
> I read a lot of complaints about it. Some even curse processor for flat and lifeless sound. After the experiments, we were able to bring life to the sound of the processor. It's practically the know-how. Open wide the front doors and go through the whole process. You'll see exactly what the bass and middle there. Speakers finally play it right. But .... The scene at the same time is gone. What would the distinguished representatives of HK-JBL? How to get the bass and mids, and the stage? It tried to do in the Moscow studio, one of the top 5 (http://www.accent-audio.ru/install/), but could not. Like many others on this forum. While I was disappointed....


Привет, соотечественник :laugh:
C таким английским они даже не поймут, что ты хотел сказать (да и я, собственно, тоже не очень понял).

У меня есть определенный опыт с этим девайсом, пиши в личку, если что.


----------



## Bluenote

ansuser said:


> Hello, guys!
> I have a question regarding side/rear speakers usage with MS8.
> 
> With Logic 7 enabled, what is necessary frequency range for side/rear channels?
> Do these channels get full range signal or some kind of bandpass filtration?
> 
> I am trying to figure out if it is worth replacing stock rear door speakers mounted dramatically "off-axis" to driver's position with something fullrange, smaller size (3.5") and more "on-axis" to driver to get better "ambience" effect...


Side and Rears = 100hz


----------



## ansuser

Bluenote said:


> Side and Rears = 100hz


Thanks, *Bluenote*.
Do you know if side and rears have any LP filtration?


----------



## subwoofery

ansuser said:


> Thanks, *Bluenote*.
> Do you know if side and rears have any LP filtration?


No LP but it is suggested to use a driver that plays @ least to 10kHz. JBL recommends strongly to use a tweeter. 

Kelvin


----------



## ansuser

subwoofery said:


> No LP but it is suggested to use a driver that plays @ least to 10kHz. JBL recommends strongly to use a tweeter.
> 
> Kelvin


Do you think 3.5" widebander will be OK for that?


----------



## subwoofery

JBL recommends *strongly *to use a tweeter 

Kelvin


----------



## ansuser

subwoofery said:


> JBL recommends *strongly *to use a tweeter
> 
> Kelvin


Informative, Sir!


----------



## kaigoss69

I think widebanders are fine for sides and rears. I know the recommendation is to use tweeters, but for l7 rear effects I don't think it will make much of a difference, UNLESS of course the position is low in the doors. On the rear deck, firing up into the glass, I wouldn't even hesitate for a second to use widebanders. 

I am using an L3SE in the center firing up at the windshield, and I'm getting excellent response up to 16khz.


----------



## .69077

Ive read a ton on the lack of midbass issue and I understand where Im running into problems.

So Ive read to put the input gains for the tweets ans mids to 2V but the sub gain slightly higher. Higher meaning clockwise towards the 200mv setting on my JL amp or counterclockwise towards the 4v setting?

Im also going to try the famous Kaigoss Method as well.


----------



## t3sn4f2

m249saw said:


> Ive read a ton on the lack of midbass issue and I understand where Im running into problems.
> 
> So Ive read to put the input gains for the tweets ans mids to 2V but the sub gain slightly higher. Higher meaning clockwise towards the 200mv setting on my JL amp or counterclockwise towards the 4v setting?
> 
> Im also going to try the famous Kaigoss Method as well.


clockwise is more sensitive. reason why the suggested input voltage level decreases. IE its more sensitive so it doesn't require as much to get the outcome.


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## .69077

I realize that, but when its said "turn the gains up" meaning higher sensitivity ie: less output for the given HU voltage?


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## minbari

More sensitive means more output for a given input

sent from my phone using digital farts


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## t3sn4f2

"gain up" means turn the pot to the right, to the clockwise direction, to the lower detent designation, etc.


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## .69077

So how does that correct excess sub bass


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## minbari

Because, you purposely play sub bass too loudly, then the auto tune sets a level that it thinks is the right amount (too loud). Then after the auto tune you return the sub bass gain back down to its original position, thus lowering sub bass 

sent from my phone using digital farts


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## venkiee

Guys.. please help me on the tuning settings as I am a noob.. My wiring goes like this as per diagram below..

I dont understand those frequency and db values and how much I need to put in

Please help


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## AAAAAAA

Strange as it might sound, I find a difference with midbase by playing with the tweeter output. Try lowering tweet volume a bit that might help.


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## .69077

minbari said:


> Because, you purposely play sub bass too loudly, then the auto tune sets a level that it thinks is the right amount (too loud). Then after the auto tune you return the sub bass gain back down to its original position, thus lowering sub bass
> 
> sent from my phone using digital farts


Gotcha, thanks. Worked pretty good


----------



## creed

guys, pretty happy with my MS-8 for close to 1 full year of using it in my Beemer. My setup is pretty simple:
- Front 2-Way with door panel 4'' + Underseat 8''
- Center channel speaker
- Rear speaker on the rear dash

Been running without subwoofer and got what I wanted, but recently I added a subwoofer to complete the system and with MS-8 it's always spending some times to get things right, and till all the setting finally dialed in, was happy and the impact of the subwoofer definitely is something welcome into the system.

Now, having a kid and at times during the weekend I've to free up some trunk space for carrying extra load of items, I've thought of having a subless setting and saved it in the favourite menu, and another with subwoofer setting.

As easy as it sounds, I can't seems to get it done, everytime I save a "subless" setting, and re-calibrate another setting with the subwoofer hoping to save it into another favourite menu. When I recalled the previous saved subless setting, it's just not possible and the system still take it as the most recent calibrated setting which is with subwoofer.

I am just wondering whether you guys been through this stage and whether this kind of favourite (with different system configuration) is even possible?

Cheers


----------



## kaigoss69

creed said:


> guys, pretty happy with my MS-8 for close to 1 full year of using it in my Beemer. My setup is pretty simple:
> - Front 2-Way with door panel 4'' + Underseat 8''
> - Center channel speaker
> - Rear speaker on the rear dash
> 
> Been running without subwoofer and got what I wanted, but recently I added a subwoofer to complete the system and with MS-8 it's always spending some times to get things right, and till all the setting finally dialed in, was happy and the impact of the subwoofer definitely is something welcome into the system.
> 
> Now, having a kid and at times during the weekend I've to free up some trunk space for carrying extra load of items, I've thought of having a subless setting and saved it in the favourite menu, and another with subwoofer setting.
> 
> As easy as it sounds, I can't seems to get it done, everytime I save a "subless" setting, and re-calibrate another setting with the subwoofer hoping to save it into another favourite menu. When I recalled the previous saved subless setting, it's just not possible and the system still take it as the most recent calibrated setting which is with subwoofer.
> 
> I am just wondering whether you guys been through this stage and whether this kind of favourite (with different system configuration) is even possible?
> 
> Cheers


The favorites menu only saves the "soft" settings, like EQ and system levels, not the "hard" settings like crossovers, channel assignments, etc. It would be nice, but there is no way to do what you described, unless you set the sub/midbass crossover at the amp, and not the MS-8.


----------



## creed

Thanks for the clarification at least I knew this isn't possible 

Sent from my HUAWEI MT1-U06 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Todd Hall

Todd Hall said:


> I prepared a quick PowerPoint slide to illustrate the design. It appears small, but it should scale up
> 
> 1) Buick Intellilink Head Unit feeds MS-8 located left rear of trunk behind wheel well
> 2) JBL MS-8 feeds JBL MS-A1004 (1) under left front seat
> 3) JBL MS-8 feeds JBL MS-A1004 (2) under right front seat
> 4) JBL MS-8 feeds JBL MS-5001 Subwoofer amp in right rear of trunk behind wheel well
> 5) JBL MS-1004 (1) feed left Infinity Kappa 60.11cs tweeter in dashboard
> 6) JBL MS-1004 (1) feeds right Infinity Kappa 60.11cs tweeter in dashboard
> 7) JBL MS-1004 (1) feeds center Infinity Kappa 42.9 coax in dashboard
> 8) Infinity Kappa 60.11cs Xovers not used. Without the Xover, I'll need something to protect the tweeters
> 9) JBL MS-A1004 (2) feeds left front door kick panel Infinity Kappa 60.11cs midwoofer
> 10) JBL MS-A1004 (2) feeds left rear door kick panel Infinity Kappa 62.11i coax
> 11) JBL MS-A1004 (2) feeds right front door kick panel Infinity Kappa 60.11cs midwoofer
> 12) JBL MS-A1004 (2) feeds right rear door kick panel Infinity Kappa 62.11 i coax
> 13) JBL MS-A5001 feeds two CDT ES0690Gold 6X9 Subwoofers in parallel, located in rear parcel shelf. (parcel shelf swapped out for the Bose version with grilles


I have purchased everything for this design. Still waiting to contract an installer to assist.

So with this second design, the rear door coaxial spakers are powered off the MS-8
Questions:
1) Do I REQUIRE a second amplifier for these channels for proper SQ?
2) If add a second amp, won't I need a capacitor as the total RMS power of the combined amps would be 1200 watts? 
3) Where would all these additional wires go near the battery. Three amplifiers plus the MS-08 total 225 amps. JBL says fusing for these needs to be within 18" of battery.

Thanks all


----------



## stylngle2003

rear fill does not need its own amp for SQ, there is not a lot of information sent to those speakers. Front and Center and Sub are most important. The power the MS-8 supplies them will be just fine.

How many amps is your standard alternator? RockAuto suggests it's 130A. 

Unless you are running your system at maximum output, it is unlikely you will overtax the standard alternator, and you should not need a capacitor, period. 

Using class D standard 75% efficiency, and assuming a 15 foot run of 4ga wire for the main power line, you will pull 131 amps before your amplifiers notice .5V voltage drop, and you will be producing 1355 Watts of audio power. At full draw, your system is likely to pull 117A according to the link below.

JBL recommends 8ga power wires for the two MSA100.4s with 60A fuses on each. The 500.1 is recommended an 8ga power wire with an 80A fuse, although it can accept 4ga wire as well. Run these power wires from a distribution block which receives your main power wire straight from the battery. 4ga wire should be sufficient for your main power wire, with no more than a 125a fuse, and no less than a 100A fuse, within 18" of your positive battery terminal. As long as each wire smaller than the main is fused appropriately, you should have no problems here. You can also run the ground wires to a distribution block though the run from under your seats to the trunk may be quite long. 

You are only really adding 1 wire off the battery, and through to the interior. Though you should strongly consider doing the "big three" upgrade and improving the battery->chassis ground, the battery->alternator charge wire and the alternator/engine block to ground wire while it is all getting installed. 

see here: http://www.bcae1.com/images/swfs/systemdesignassistant2.swf


----------



## Todd Hall

stylngle2003 said:


> rear fill does not need its own amp for SQ, there is not a lot of information sent to those speakers. Front and Center and Sub are most important. The power the MS-8 supplies them will be just fine.
> 
> How many amps is your standard alternator? RockAuto suggests it's 130A.
> 
> Unless you are running your system at maximum output, it is unlikely you will overtax the standard alternator, and you should not need a capacitor, period.
> 
> Using class D standard 75% efficiency, and assuming a 15 foot run of 4ga wire for the main power line, you will pull 131 amps before your amplifiers notice .5V voltage drop, and you will be producing 1355 Watts of audio power. At full draw, your system is likely to pull 117A according to the link below.
> 
> JBL recommends 8ga power wires for the two MSA100.4s with 60A fuses on each. The 500.1 is recommended an 8ga power wire with an 80A fuse, although it can accept 4ga wire as well. Run these power wires from a distribution block which receives your main power wire straight from the battery. 4ga wire should be sufficient for your main power wire, with no more than a 125a fuse, and no less than a 100A fuse, within 18" of your positive battery terminal. As long as each wire smaller than the main is fused appropriately, you should have no problems here. You can also run the ground wires to a distribution block though the run from under your seats to the trunk may be quite long.
> 
> You are only really adding 1 wire off the battery, and through to the interior. Though you should strongly consider doing the "big three" upgrade and improving the battery->chassis ground, the battery->alternator charge wire and the alternator/engine block to ground wire while it is all getting installed.
> 
> see here: http://www.bcae1.com/images/swfs/systemdesignassistant2.swf


Ok This is a brand new car. Doing a Big Three Upgrade, however desirable, will most likely void my warranty. We will need to work within the constraint of using the existing power delivery wires.

As it stands today, I will only have two amps plus the MS-8
MS-8 requires 25A fuse
MS-1004 requires 60a fuse (Using three channels powering the FL, Center, FR speakers
MS=5001 requires 80a fuse (2 6X9 subwoofers in parallel

I would chose 2 gauge for main power. Does this need a fuse between batter an distribution block of 165 amps?

MS-8, MS-1004 and MS-5001 would use 4 - 8 gauge. This would allow an additional amp to be installed later with no issues.


----------



## stylngle2003

Sorry, from your quoted text I thought you were running dual 100.4s and the 500.1. 

You can do the big three in addition to the stock stuff, which _should not _void any warranties as long as they aren't the reason for failure (ie FIRE from improper install etc). Maybe it's different in Canada, I'm not sure. 

I think 2ga is overkill if 4ga is sufficient for a 3 amp setup, so it should be fine as well for 2 amps and the MS-8. Reason being you won't be drawing full current from every component at once. 

You will need a fuse and it should be as close as possible to the battery + terminal for your main power run. Certainly not more than 18" away. 

I think it's a great idea to get distribution blocks with at least 1 extra spot open to keep future expansion possible.


----------



## Todd Hall

stylngle2003 said:


> rear fill does not need its own amp for SQ, there is not a lot of information sent to those speakers. Front and Center and Sub are most important. The power the MS-8 supplies them will be just fine.
> 
> How many amps is your standard alternator? RockAuto suggests it's 130A.
> 
> Unless you are running your system at maximum output, it is unlikely you will overtax the standard alternator, and you should not need a capacitor, period.
> 
> Using class D standard 75% efficiency, and assuming a 15 foot run of 4ga wire for the main power line, you will pull 131 amps before your amplifiers notice .5V voltage drop, and you will be producing 1355 Watts of audio power. At full draw, your system is likely to pull 117A according to the link below.
> 
> JBL recommends 8ga power wires for the two MSA100.4s with 60A fuses on each. The 500.1 is recommended an 8ga power wire with an 80A fuse, although it can accept 4ga wire as well. Run these power wires from a distribution block which receives your main power wire straight from the battery. 4ga wire should be sufficient for your main power wire, with no more than a 125a fuse, and no less than a 100A fuse, within 18" of your positive battery terminal. As long as each wire smaller than the main is fused appropriately, you should have no problems here. You can also run the ground wires to a distribution block though the run from under your seats to the trunk may be quite long.
> 
> You are only really adding 1 wire off the battery, and through to the interior. Though you should strongly consider doing the "big three" upgrade and improving the battery->chassis ground, the battery->alternator charge wire and the alternator/engine block to ground wire while it is all getting installed.
> 
> see here: http://www.bcae1.com/images/swfs/systemdesignassistant2.swf


I can buy a four position MANL fused distribution block. They come with or without a ground cable option. I chose MANL fuses because they are the only type that carries a range of fuses at 25, 60 & 80 amps.

There is a Tsunami block which uses (1-3) 4 AWG in and (4) 8 AWG out
There are T-Spec blocks that are (1-2) 1/0 AWG in and (2) 4/8 AWG and (2) 8 AWG outputs . There are with or without ground.

Thinking the non-ground T-Spec is the way to go. Otherwise, we have four sets of ground cables that half to be routed up front instead of to the unpainted metal space nearest to the amp.

I would guess that the distribution block would need to be within 18" of the car battery. This should meet JBL's 18" fuse requirements?


----------



## Todd Hall

Now that we are past the Fused Distribution Block question we are on to RCA Interconnects.

can you use an RCA Video Interconnect for the Center Channel and for a Subwoofer connection?

RCA Interconnects come in 2, 4, and 6 channel sets. My designs have me with the need for 3 Channels for the MS-A1004 and 1 Channel for the MS-A5001 Subwoofer amp 

Thanks all


----------



## Todd Hall

Todd Hall said:


> Now that we are past the Fused Distribution Block question we are on to RCA Interconnects.
> 
> can you use an RCA Video Interconnect for the Center Channel and for a Sub-woofer connection?
> 
> RCA Interconnects come in 2, 4, and 6 channel sets. My designs have me with the need for 3 Channels for the MS-A1004 and 1 Channel for the MS-A5001 Subwoofer amp
> 
> Thanks all


I want to clarify my request. My understanding is that video RCA interconnects are just a superior shielded someone higher tolerance version of audio cables.
If this is so, I will use 1 for the center channel of my main amp, and another for the sub-woofer amp requiring only one connector from the MS-08


----------



## CDT FAN

I have used the yellow video cables for my sub channels for years with no noticeable side effects.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Todd Hall said:


> I want to clarify my request. My understanding is that video RCA interconnects are just a superior shielded someone higher tolerance version of audio cables.
> If this is so, I will use 1 for the center channel of my main amp, and another for the sub-woofer amp requiring only one connector from the MS-08


Using 75ohm cable for analog audio, Good, bad? - Members' Theaters, HT Projects, Remotes, Seating, Accessories & Lighting - Home Theater Forum


----------



## david in germany

Ok, I need input. Where should my front stage be? Dead center on the windshield or dead center in front of me? Without center speaker I could have it center in front of me. With center speaker it is almost always center dash.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Windshield


----------



## david in germany

But where on the windshield. In front of me or centered?


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## t3sn4f2

Center of the windshield.


----------



## david in germany

I am good then. LoL


----------



## Todd Hall

t3sn4f2 said:


> Using 75ohm cable for analog audio, Good, bad? - Members' Theaters, HT Projects, Remotes, Seating, Accessories & Lighting - Home Theater Forum


Everything purchased for my build. While I have not contracted for an installer in Ottawa, I have had discussions. One company willing to do my build is saying that my fused distribution block would be in the rear, with a long power wire from the battery.

My MS-8, MS-A1004 and MS-A5001 all state that the fuse must be withing 18" from the battery. Why? Why can't I have a power wire from the battery, 0 gauge, fused at like 120 amps to the fused distribution block, and then the fuses assigned to the required values in the block 25A for MS-8, 60A for MS-A1004 and 80A for MS-A5001?


----------



## CDT FAN

Todd Hall said:


> Everything purchased for my build. While I have not contracted for an installer in Ottawa, I have had discussions. One company willing to do my build is saying that my fused distribution block would be in the rear, with a long power wire from the battery.
> 
> My MS-8, MS-A1004 and MS-A5001 all state that the fuse must be withing 18" from the battery. Why? Why can't I have a power wire from the battery, 0 gauge, fused at like 120 amps to the fused distribution block, and then the fuses assigned to the required values in the block 25A for MS-8, 60A for MS-A1004 and 80A for MS-A5001?


You can. Just put the 120A fuse next to the battery. Run the cable to the back and distribute and then fuse the power to each amp. The purpose for the fuse being close to the battery is to protect the car from a fire in case the main power cable shorts out to the car; not to protect the amps.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Todd Hall said:


> Everything purchased for my build. While I have not contracted for an installer in Ottawa, I have had discussions. One company willing to do my build is saying that my fused distribution block would be in the rear, with a long power wire from the battery.
> 
> My MS-8, MS-A1004 and MS-A5001 all state that the fuse must be withing 18" from the battery. Why? Why can't I have a power wire from the battery, 0 gauge, fused at like 120 amps to the fused distribution block, and then the fuses assigned to the required values in the block 25A for MS-8, 60A for MS-A1004 and 80A for MS-A5001?


You can. Manuals can't cover every possible install configuration out there, so they are assuming you are only connecting that one component. Which would have the fuse at the source, be it the battery if running individual power runs or the dist. block if being fed from a heavier gauge fused source.


----------



## stylngle2003

right. my previous statements were not very clear i suppose. 


> Using class D standard 75% efficiency, and assuming a 15 foot run of 4ga wire for the main power line, you will pull 131 amps before your amplifiers notice .5V voltage drop, and you will be producing 1355 Watts of audio power. At full draw, your system is likely to pull 117A according to the link below.
> 
> JBL recommends 8ga power wires for the two MSA100.4s with 60A fuses on each. The 500.1 is recommended an 8ga power wire with an 80A fuse, although it can accept 4ga wire as well. Run these power wires from a distribution block which receives your main power wire straight from the battery. 4ga wire should be sufficient for your main power wire, with no more than a 125a fuse, and no less than a 100A fuse, within 18" of your positive battery terminal. As long as each wire smaller than the main is fused appropriately, you should have no problems here. You can also run the ground wires to a distribution block though the run from under your seats to the trunk may be quite long.
> 
> You are only really adding 1 wire off the battery, and through to the interior. Though you should strongly consider doing the "big three" upgrade and improving the battery->chassis ground, the battery->alternator charge wire and the alternator/engine block to ground wire while it is all getting installed.
> 
> see here: http://www.bcae1.com/images/swfs/sys...assistant2.swf


----------



## Todd Hall

stylngle2003 said:


> right. my previous statements were not very clear i suppose.


I thank you for your clarification. I chose a distribution block with 0 gauge in and 8 gauge out. I chose Rockford Fosgate amp sets, as I wanted to ensure OFC wire. Other sets had CCA (KCA for KnuKoncept).

Using the tool link... If I needed a long run for the main power line, or added an amp, it called for 2 gauge wire. I then went for the 0/1 gauge set. 

If I am going to invest more than double what I had originally budgeted for a system, scrimping on the wire/nerves of the system seemed silly. The main power won't have to change regardless of amp/speaker solutions I may choose in the future.


----------



## Todd Hall

Finalized the design & equipment. File is attached.

I haven't found an installer with MS-8 experience, yet. 

I'll keep all informed.

Thanks all for your assistance


----------



## venkiee

Hi all

My JBL MS-8 Remote has become functionless. Can I buy the remote alone? Please help me...

I live in Malaysia and the local dealer not supporting us properly. Help from forum friends for buying a spare remote would be greatly appreciated


----------



## caraudioworld

I also would like to know how far the wireless remote works? I am thinking in the MS8 but I think I wont use the screen after the tunning (just hide it somewhere), is this possible? and if I dont use the screen I can use the remote for something? (volume mostly) or I neet to actually point to the screen?


----------



## Ryanu

caraudioworld said:


> I also would like to know how far the wireless remote works? I am thinking in the MS8 but I think I wont use the screen after the tunning (just hide it somewhere), is this possible? and if I dont use the screen I can use the remote for something? (volume mostly) or I neet to actually point to the screen?


U can hide it after tuning. Unless u connect ipod to the ms8 aux. I doubt u can use the remote without the display being attached. I might be wrong tho..

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## vwdave

I believe the manual states ( or maybe it was on here) that you can't change anything on the ms-8 without the screen attached (therefore no remote without the screen). I just ran mine to the glove box. I still have to make a holder for it, but it's hidden, and can be in view easily by just opening the glove box.


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## david in germany

True, I have tested as well. The remote only works when the screen is connected.


----------



## caraudioworld

david in germany said:


> True, I have tested as well. The remote only works when the screen is connected.


Ok, then I need to read if I can run the MS8 only with my OEM HU controls, because what I dont want to do is run a wire from the trunk to the front. I am planning to tune with the screen wire over the seats and then hide the thing in the trunk.


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## david in germany

Volume, Balance, bass, treble will work from your deck but you will have no fade, seat position selection, eq, ect. 
I find myself switching seating position from driver to front whenever I have a passenger so the screen is a must.


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## t3sn4f2

You can fade from the oe head unit. Just as long as you are feeding the ms-8 front and rear, and don't have logic7 enabled.


----------



## caraudioworld

Well what you said about the seats positions might be important and the extra effort and cost of putting the screen in a nice mounting in the center console might be worth it after all.

Another thing that worries me is the jet noise, but an owner of a MS 8 told me that I can solve it easily with a cap in the tweeters line to prevent any possible damage to the equipment in case the bug appear. About that, the cap will be needed at all times or only during calibration? This caps are like any cap of radioshack (obviously with a determined value) or I will need to use some special kind of cap? In fact I have bi amped passives, there is a possibility I can keep the passives to conserve the protections? or it will interfere with MS8 autotune capabilities?

Sorry for all the questions but I want to really expend my money wise, since I dont have much left..in THEORY my system was finished, but this never ends haha


----------



## Todd Hall

Todd Hall said:


> Everything purchased for my build. While I have not contracted for an installer in Ottawa, I have had discussions. One company willing to do my build is saying that my fused distribution block would be in the rear, with a long power wire from the battery.
> 
> My MS-8, MS-A1004 and MS-A5001 all state that the fuse must be withing 18" from the battery. Why? Why can't I have a power wire from the battery, 0 gauge, fused at like 120 amps to the fused distribution block, and then the fuses assigned to the required values in the block 25A for MS-8, 60A for MS-A1004 and 80A for MS-A5001?


It appears that I have a design challenge. I purchased two CDT ES0690 Gold 6X9 200W subwoofers to be powered in parallel by a JBL MS-A5001 500W subwoofer amp.. These speakers have published Power Handling of 200W.

But, upon opening the box, it appears that a design change that reduced the size of the Voice Coil from 2.0" to 1.5". The specifications on the CDT Audio and the vendor websites had not been updated. (They were corrected yesterday) 

So now I have a 500W amp powering two subwoofers with a maximum output using 250W max. This seems a waste of space and less than optimum for my usage.

I think it would be better to sell the MS-A5001 which I bought open box from Crutchfield. I have $225.99USD or $235.40CDN invested.

I would replace this with a second JBL MS-A1004. I could use Channels 1-2 to power the rear door speakers previously powered by the MS-8 and Channels 3-4 to power the two rear deck 6X9 subwoofers.


What does the forum think?
Thanks


----------



## Ryanu

I would say stick with the A5001 as it leaves you more headroom to play with. In case u gonna change ur subs in the future. Just my honest opinion 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


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## miniSQ

stick with the amp you have, not worth the hassle of returning it and buying something else.

as for your fuse question....you ALWAYS need a fuse with in 18" of the battery, for protecting the vehicle. Any additional fuses in the trunk are optional.


----------



## Todd Hall

Planning for a 120 amp fuse near battery.

Still open to swapping out the MS-A5001 for a MS-A1004. Nothing has been installed yet. 

Since I got such a great deal from Crutchfield on the MS-A5001, it may be possible that I merely sell the subwoofer amp and apply the proceeds to the 4 channel amp.


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> You can fade from the oe head unit. Just as long as you are feeding the ms-8 front and rear, and don't have logic7 enabled.


Not if both front and rear are connected to MS-8.


----------



## Todd Hall

Todd Hall said:


> It appears that I have a design challenge. I purchased two CDT ES0690 Gold 6X9 200W subwoofers to be powered in parallel by a JBL MS-A5001 500W subwoofer amp.. These speakers have published Power Handling of 200W.
> 
> But, upon opening the box, it appears that a design change that reduced the size of the Voice Coil from 2.0" to 1.5". The specifications on the CDT Audio and the vendor websites had not been updated. (They were corrected yesterday)
> 
> So now I have a 500W amp powering two subwoofers with a maximum output using 250W max. This seems a waste of space and less than optimum for my usage.
> 
> I think it would be better to sell the MS-A5001 which I bought open box from Crutchfield. I have $225.99USD or $235.40CDN invested.
> 
> I would replace this with a second JBL MS-A1004. I could use Channels 1-2 to power the rear door speakers previously powered by the MS-8 and Channels 3-4 to power the two rear deck 6X9 subwoofers.
> 
> 
> What does the forum think?
> Thanks


I ordered the second MS-A1004. I think powering the rear door speakers off an amp instead of the MS-8 has merit. I can power the subs off the two other channels.

I can still keep the MS-A5001 in reserve, in case the subwoofer arrangement needs additional power, but I doubt it. It'll probably end up getting listed here or on Kijiji.

I hope it doesn't matter if one of the RCA Interconnects is 10 feet vs. 16? I'm trying to keep wire lengths as close to the same as possible.


Thanks all


----------



## MJ DOOM

Would a MS8 do well with this setup?

Three 3.5 speakers in the dash (L,C,R) playing 250hz and up. They have a sensitivity of 89 dB at 1 watt. And 7" mids in the door playing from 60hz to 250hz with a sensitivity of 86dB at 1 watt.


----------



## DragonMouse

I'd also have one question; does the ms8 allow to adjust the subwoofer level via the HU? 

I have the Clarion CZ702, where you can adjust the sub-level on 2 different ways.. but, when I tested the MS8 in my setup, I forgot to try this out.. And, in my setup aren't amps used, which have a remote controller for gain-level.. 

thx


----------



## stylngle2003

Todd, 
If you keep the gains low, you will not damage your cdt 6x9s. 
Why not wire them in series? Just a thought.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


----------



## Ryanu

MJ DOOM said:


> Would a MS8 do well with this setup?
> 
> Three 3.5 speakers in the dash (L,C,R) playing 250hz and up. They have a sensitivity of 89 dB at 1 watt. And 7" mids in the door playing from 60hz to 250hz with a sensitivity of 86dB at 1 watt.


It will even be better if u add in rear. So u can fully utilise the L7 processing.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## kaigoss69

DragonMouse said:


> I'd also have one question; does the ms8 allow to adjust the subwoofer level via the HU?
> 
> I have the Clarion CZ702, where you can adjust the sub-level on 2 different ways.. but, when I tested the MS8 in my setup, I forgot to try this out.. And, in my setup aren't amps used, which have a remote controller for gain-level..
> 
> thx


Normally the HU would adjust sub through the dedicated sub RCAs which you don't hook up to MS-8 inputs. But even if it was boosting low frequencies through the regular full-range RCAs, it is better to use the MS-8 tone control functions.


----------



## Todd Hall

stylngle2003 said:


> Todd,
> If you keep the gains low, you will not damage your cdt 6x9s.
> Why not wire them in series? Just a thought.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


The MS-A5001 allows for two woofers wired in parallel. If I am to use the MS-A1004, then I will probably give each woofer its own channel.


----------



## Todd Hall

Todd Hall said:


> The MS-A5001 allows for two woofers wired in parallel. If I am to use the MS-A1004, then I will probably give each woofer its own channel.


It appears I have to not only give up using the JBL MS-A5001 subwoofer amp, but also having a center channel speaker.

I had purchased the 3.5" Bose speaker for my car from my dealer in order to measure it for an upgrade. This speaker is not only a piece of .......... but has no tweeter. This is how Buick describes it "One 3.25-inch (80mm) Twiddler® neodymium mid/high-range speaker positioned in the center of the
instrument panel."

Opening up the speaker grill in my dash, I find a situation I had not expected. Not only is the grille part of a sensor assembly, but below the speaker mount wings is a plastic cone that narrows the hole from the cutout.

The wing mounting holes are 4 1/8" wide, This is pretty standard.
The issues are:
The basket width is only 3" and narrows
The wing mount allows only a 1/4" rise above the mount. (Domes would hit grill)
Total depth is 1 3/4"

I'll need to get rid of the Infinity Kappa 42.9is I picked up last week. I can't find a suitable replacements. Speakers that will fit will only allow 15-20w.


----------



## val69

Can I have 3way active up front, rearfill, and a sub using the MS8? 
Rearfill will be passive. I'm using Hertz Mille 2way, and upfront Hertz Mille 3way. (active)
I will be using 2 Alpine PDX 600.4 amps and one Alpine PDX 1000.1.


----------



## nineball

val69 said:


> Can I have 3way active up front, rearfill, and a sub using the MS8?
> Rearfill will be passive. I'm using Hertz Mille 2way, and upfront Hertz Mille 3way. (active)
> I will be using 2 Alpine PDX 600.4 amps and one Alpine PDX 1000.1.


you get 8 channels with the ms-8, hence the name. 6 channels front + 2 channels rear + sub = 9.


----------



## traceywatts

if you can run one output as mono and bandpassed, the rear-fill can play from that.


----------



## kaigoss69

traceywatts said:


> if you can run one output as mono and bandpassed, the rear-fill can play from that.


But you CAN'T!


----------



## Radknight

Well you probably can if you run all speakers in parallel, add some filters to the mids but it would sound like absolute ****e and the MS8 wouldn't like it too much and you would defeat the purpose of having the MS8


----------



## Todd Hall

Todd Hall said:


> It appears I have to not only give up using the JBL MS-A5001 subwoofer amp, but also having a center channel speaker.
> 
> I had purchased the 3.5" Bose speaker for my car from my dealer in order to measure it for an upgrade. This speaker is not only a piece of .......... but has no tweeter. This is how Buick describes it "One 3.25-inch (80mm) Twiddler® neodymium mid/high-range speaker positioned in the center of the
> instrument panel."
> 
> Opening up the speaker grill in my dash, I find a situation I had not expected. Not only is the grille part of a sensor assembly, but below the speaker mount wings is a plastic cone that narrows the hole from the cutout.
> 
> The wing mounting holes are 4 1/8" wide, This is pretty standard.
> The issues are:
> The basket width is only 3" and narrows
> The wing mount allows only a 1/4" rise above the mount. (Domes would hit grill)
> Total depth is 1 3/4"
> 
> I'll need to get rid of the Infinity Kappa 42.9is I picked up last week. I can't find a suitable replacements. Speakers that will fit will only allow 15-20w.


My build will happen on Friday March 8th.

The installer has determined that my amplifiers will not fit under the seats. We will build a false floor in trunk.

One JBL MS-A1004 will power front and rear door speakers and dash tweeters.
A second JBL MS-A1004 with power two 6X9 Subwoofers.

The MS-8 will power the center. This speaker will be either the Bose/GM "premium" center :laugh:, or a Pioneer TS-878 center. Power handling would be maxed out by the MS-8.

The center may be a waste, but it's my best educated option.

I have generated surplus items which I'll place for sale in the classifieds soon. I might as well wait for everything to get assembled.

1) MS-A5001 Subwoofer amp with $225.98USD invested
2) Infinity Kappa 42.9i 4 inch speakers with $99.44USD invested.


----------



## 13TuxEco

are there any other amps that are powered with dsp in it? I will be using it with a factory hu


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## kaigoss69

13TuxEco said:


> are there any other amps that are powered with dsp in it? I will be using it with a factory hu


Why do you need another DSP?


----------



## taibanl

@Andy Wehmeyer @kaigoss69 @t3sn4f2 and anyone who has installed in e90....is the MS-8 completely silent? I have replaced HU recently to get rid of ground noise, replaced wiring harness (to fix noise from brake lights) but still I have what I think is MS-8 'processor' noise. It sounds like very high frequency morse code, someone a few hundred posts back described it as sounding like something thats used in the SETI program. thoughts?


----------



## kaigoss69

taibanl said:


> @Andy Wehmeyer @kaigoss69 @t3sn4f2 and anyone who has installed in e90....is the MS-8 completely silent? I have replaced HU recently to get rid of ground noise, replaced wiring harness (to fix noise from brake lights) but still I have what I think is MS-8 'processor' noise. It sounds like very high frequency morse code, someone a few hundred posts back described it as sounding like something thats used in the SETI program. thoughts?


Total silence for me...


----------



## timbyers

taibanl said:


> @Andy Wehmeyer @kaigoss69 @t3sn4f2 and anyone who has installed in e90....is the MS-8 completely silent? I have replaced HU recently to get rid of ground noise, replaced wiring harness (to fix noise from brake lights) but still I have what I think is MS-8 'processor' noise. It sounds like very high frequency morse code, someone a few hundred posts back described it as sounding like something thats used in the SETI program. thoughts?


Unplug the headphones.


----------



## trumpet

Todd Hall said:


> The MS-8 will power the center. This speaker will be either the Bose/GM "premium" center :laugh:, or a Pioneer TS-878 center. Power handling would be maxed out by the MS-8.
> 
> The center may be a waste, but it's my best educated option.


If you treat the center channel like that it will be a waste. Don't put the least power and the crappiest speaker assigned to Center. A 3.5" coaxial is not going to keep up with 6x9s. A lot happens in the center channel with Logic 7 that has been explained probably several times in this thread. If you aren't concerned with good imaging for other seats leave the center out. MS-8 can give you a good center image without a center channel, but only for one seat.


----------



## tbomb

I have been loving my MS8 and enjoyed finding the holes in my general install that make it sound even better. I have also been adamant to others that they take full advcantage of MS8 and use center channel with rears and L7. Lately I have been experimenting with turning l7 off, especially with FM radio. The crazy thing is, the center image is still locked down. To the point you almost want to feel the center speaker to make sure it isnt playing by mistake!! And the stage seems slightly wider. i guess i would like to here from folks who have done both. No center with L7 vs center. Of course I could just spend 5 minutes in drive and re-calibrate with no center! With out my active 2 way center, that opens up 2 channels to add rears. Car is a GTI so is this even worth it. I know andy has said the difference in 5.1 and 7.1 is small, but if i can do it should I? Is center and 5.1 better than phantom 7.1?


----------



## RickA1

tbomb said:


> I have been loving my MS8 and enjoyed finding the holes in my general install that make it sound even better. I have also been adamant to others that they take full advcantage of MS8 and use center channel with rears and L7. Lately I have been experimenting with turning l7 off, especially with FM radio. The crazy thing is, the center image is still locked down. To the point you almost want to feel the center speaker to make sure it isnt playing by mistake!! And the stage seems slightly wider. i guess i would like to here from folks who have done both. No center with L7 vs center. Of course I could just spend 5 minutes in drive and re-calibrate with no center! With out my active 2 way center, that opens up 2 channels to add rears. Car is a GTI so is this even worth it. I know andy has said the difference in 5.1 and 7.1 is small, but if i can do it should I? Is center and 5.1 better than phantom 7.1?


I do not have a center, and I prefer L7 off all day long; Imaging is pretty accurate with a perfect center, and sound stage is wider. 

Car is a Sonata and I have components up front with tweeters in the dash, coaxials in rear doors and free air sub in the rear deck.

Love what the MS-8 has brought to my commute.


----------



## diynube

I am wondering the following information pertaining to the JBL MS-8. I couldn't find the answers in this thread or elsewhere.
What is the...
1.) Samping rate and bit depth of the ADC in the JBL MS-8?
2.) Samping rate and bit depth of the DAC in the JBL MS-8?
3.) Internal DSP sampling rate and bit depth? (is there sample rate conversion or degradation of the quality at this level?)
4.) Model # or manufacturer information of the ADC or DAC in the JBL MS-8?

I had a listen to the JL Audio rep's car who was talking up his JL equipment. When I told him I was using the MS-8, he naturally talked the MS-8 down and that this upcoming JL processor would be superior, etc. He proceeded to tell me the MS-8 wasn't any better than CD quality.
I thought that the MS-8 ADC and DAC was 24bit/48khz. Is that correct? If so, then it a definite step up from CD quality. I am feeding the MS-8 with a DAC that is 24-96 capable and I have tested some 24-96 content. I would like to know if this guy if full of ___.


----------



## Todd Hall

trumpet said:


> If you treat the center channel like that it will be a waste. Don't put the least power and the crappiest speaker assigned to Center. A 3.5" coaxial is not going to keep up with 6x9s. A lot happens in the center channel with Logic 7 that has been explained probably several times in this thread. If you aren't concerned with good imaging for other seats leave the center out. MS-8 can give you a good center image without a center channel, but only for one seat.


I am operating under the assumption that a small center speaker (with a tweeter) is better than no center. I believe that I quoted Andy Wehmeyer in a prior post. ...Andy, if you wish to weigh in here, thx.

I would like imaging optimal for at least the two front seats. We will be installing a Pioneer TS-878 center speaker designed for the space. Yes, this speaker only has 15W RMS and 60W Peak capability. But, it at least has a tweeter. Frequency response is 60 Hz to 28 kHz. I'll consider this a placeholder speaker until I can find a superior model that will fit in the space.

The installer will be allowing the center speaker connection to be: A) Powered by the MS-08, B) Powered by the MS-A1004 or C) not connected.


----------



## kaigoss69

Todd Hall said:


> I am operating under the assumption that a small center speaker (with a tweeter) is better than no center. I believe that I quoted Andy Wehmeyer in a prior post. ...Andy, if you wish to weigh in here, thx.
> 
> I would like imaging optimal for at least the two front seats. We will be installing a Pioneer TS-878 center speaker designed for the space. Yes, this speaker only has 15W RMS and 60W Peak capability. But, it at least has a tweeter. Frequency response is 60 Hz to 28 kHz. I'll consider this a placeholder speaker until I can find a superior model that will fit in the space.
> 
> The installer will be allowing the center speaker connection to be: A) Powered by the MS-08, B) Powered by the MS-A1004 or C) not connected.


I would say that a crappy small speaker on ms-8 power will do more harm than good. B or C should be the only options to consider.

Also, you do not get "optimal" imaging for both front seats with a center. What you get with the "front" setting is a compromise. I personally don't like it, not one bit!


----------



## subwoofery

Just tune for the driver seat with a center channel - it will then better for the passenger than no center channel... 
... but still be great for the driver's seat  

If possible, get the same kind of power for your center as your front mids+tweets or the center channel will hold your system down as far as maximum loudness. 

Kelvin


----------



## Todd Hall

subwoofery said:


> Just tune for the driver seat with a center channel - it will then better for the passenger than no center channel...
> ... but still be great for the driver's seat
> 
> If possible, get the same kind of power for your center as your front mids+tweets or the center channel will hold your system down as far as maximum loudness.
> 
> Kelvin


I have the option of using an MS-A1004 channel for power. It's just that the speakers I have on hand, that I know will fit, do not handle much power.

The clearance between the tweeter and the grille has yet to be determined. The grille delivered with the car is not functional. There is a different part on order. This should arrive hopefully in the next couple of days. Based on what I can determine, I may not have a 1/2 inch clearance.

We will try other speakers available to the installer.

Also, I measured the cutout at 3 inches. I used a cheap compass for this measurement. If the hole is actually 3 1/8 inches, then I have some additional speaker options by infinity and hertz I can try.


----------



## slpery

OK guys, I have a stupid question about the setup stage of looking left and right.

Since im in Australia, and the drivers position is on the right, when it asks to "look at the drivers side mirror", do I look to the right? Or is the MS-8 designed for the American market, and I should be looking towards my left first, then the right?


----------



## stylngle2003

Todd, if you keep the high pass crossover in check on the center, you won't really be harming a small speaker with "100 Watts". The problem would arise if you were trying to get it to play down to 60hz loudly. That creates a lot of heat that the voice coil and motor would not be able to effectively dissipate. By keeping the highpass higher and on a steeper slope (100-120 @ 24dB) you will be subjecting the speaker to significantly less thermal load. it is less efficient than your front stage so it will do nicely with some more power.

I also don't expect a speaker that small (the pio) would have too much one-way excursion, but I dont have the speaker in my hands and cannot speak to how tall the tweeter protrudes








by measuring the diagram attached, it looks to be between 1/4"-5/16" protrusion from the mounting flange (installed height).

since you're doing 2 MSA1004s now, you could either bridge the one for your left/right front channels' passives, or run active to the front stage (mid tweet/mid tweet), and then from the other amp give the center 1 channel, and bridge 2 channels into your 6x9s (pasmag tested the MSA1004 to do 406W/channel at 2ohms, so it should be nice and authoritative), letting MS-8 run the rear fill.


----------



## Beckerson1

slpery said:


> OK guys, I have a stupid question about the setup stage of looking left and right.
> 
> Since im in Australia, and the drivers position is on the right, when it asks to "look at the drivers side mirror", do I look to the right? Or is the MS-8 designed for the American market, and I should be looking towards my left first, then the right?


Do as the MS-8 says. (so Left then Right) You will just have to switch the default preset to the passenger side. It should still work in the same way.


----------



## slpery

Ahhhh yes, but the MS-8 doesn't say "look left and right". It says drivers side (RHS for me) or passengers side (LHS).
Anyways, I'm going to try setting it as though I'm in a LHD car. 

This whole time ive had it wrong. Sounds bloody good though. Cant wait to get home to try it your way.


----------



## Todd Hall

stylngle2003 said:


> Todd, if you keep the high pass crossover in check on the center, you won't really be harming a small speaker with "100 Watts". The problem would arise if you were trying to get it to play down to 60hz loudly. That creates a lot of heat that the voice coil and motor would not be able to effectively dissipate. By keeping the highpass higher and on a steeper slope (100-120 @ 24dB) you will be subjecting the speaker to significantly less thermal load. it is less efficient than your front stage so it will do nicely with some more power.
> 
> I also don't expect a speaker that small (the pio) would have too much one-way excursion, but I dont have the speaker in my hands and cannot speak to how tall the tweeter protrudes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> by measuring the diagram attached, it looks to be between 1/4"-5/16" protrusion from the mounting flange (installed height).
> 
> since you're doing 2 MSA1004s now, you could either bridge the one for your left/right front channels' passives, or run active to the front stage (mid tweet/mid tweet), and then from the other amp give the center 1 channel, and bridge 2 channels into your 6x9s (pasmag tested the MSA1004 to do 406W/channel at 2ohms, so it should be nice and authoritative), letting MS-8 run the rear fill.


 I thank you for your interest. I appreciate that you can visualize my pitfalls and opportunities, and how to maximize my opportunities.

Let us assume that I power the Center from a MS-A1004. This is because I have more information about what fits in the center. I have received the Pioneer TS-878 speakers and have proved that they fit in the space. I have also found another speaker with the same size specifications but with higher power handling

Pioneer TS-878 
Size 3-1/2"
Max. Music Power (Nominal) 60 W (15W)
Cone Material IMPP
Frequency Response 60 Hz to 28 kHz
Sensitivity (1 W/1 m) 88 dB
Impedance 4 Ω
Crossover Frequency ―
Mounting Depth 1-3/8"
Cut-Out Dimensions 3"
Tweeter Protrusion 3/8"

Kicker CS-35
Size 3-1/2"
Max. Music Power 90W Peak 30 W RMS 
Cone Material Polypropylene
"Effective" Frequency Response 80 Hz to 20 kHz
Sensitivity (1 W/1 m) 88 dB
Impedance 4 Ω
Crossover Frequency ―
Mounting Depth 1-11/16"
Cut-Out Dimensions 3"
Tweeter Protrusion 1/8"

Should I buy the Kicker?

Now the amps

First MS-A1004 4 Channels
1-2 Front doors and dash component woofers and tweeters via passive crossover
3-4 Rear door coaxials

Second MS-A1004 4 Channels
1 Center Speaker
2-3 Bridged powering 2 6X9' 4 Ω speakers in parallel. or or just assigning the channels individually (advice please)
4 unused


----------



## tbomb

@todd

sorry if I missed it in earlier post...but what purpose are the 6x9's serving? Rears? or "sub" duty


----------



## Todd Hall

tbomb said:


> @todd
> 
> sorry if I missed it in earlier post...but what purpose are the 6x9's serving? Rears? or "sub" duty


The two 6X9s are subwoofers/midwoofers. CDT ES0690Gold Frequency response 30Hz-3500Hz
Power handling: 125WRMS (250WPk) 

Effectively it would be similar to having a 10 inch subwoofer in the trunk. As it is, I'm taking up space for a false floor in trunk for the MS-8 and amps. Because of vents, I cannot use under seat locations.

Excuse me if I am wrong, but with speakers on all doors, having a coaxial or triaxial in the rear deck is not optimal. 

Again, if I have it wrong, please advise.

Thanks


----------



## tbomb

I just went to edit my post when I realized they were subs but you beat me to it! 
My suggestion is (and this will not be popular) Run everything off MS8 with front stage being fully active. Tell your installer to figure out how to get the kappa 4 to work as center. Surely he can find a custom solution that isnt too crazy. If anything he could use existing grill as baffle and top mount driver using infinty grill....maybe wrap in matching cloth? just guessing on that since im not familiar with vehicle, but he should be able to get that in there. Then power each 6x9 of of bridged chnnels of 1004 or off 5001. This is how am utilizing my ms8. The kappas are 2 ohm, i believe, so should sound great! 

Then you have a much simpler install from equipment standpoint. 

And you can sell me your other 4 channel! Please! in fact use the 5001 and I'll buy both 4 channels!


----------



## bmxscion

fully active and MS-8= awesome


----------



## Todd Hall

tbomb said:


> I just went to edit my post when I realized they were subs but you beat me to it!
> My suggestion is (and this will not be popular) Run everything off MS8 with front stage being fully active. Tell your installer to figure out how to get the kappa 4 to work as center. Surely he can find a custom solution that isnt too crazy. If anything he could use existing grill as baffle and top mount driver using infinty grill....maybe wrap in matching cloth? just guessing on that since im not familiar with vehicle, but he should be able to get that in there. Then power each 6x9 of of bridged channels of 1004 or off 5001. This is how am utilizing my ms8. The kappas are 2 ohm, i believe, so should sound great!
> 
> Then you have a much simpler install from equipment standpoint.
> 
> And you can sell me your other 4 channel! Please! in fact use the 5001 and I'll buy both 4 channels!


Curious question? Why buy the MS-A1004's from me when you can get them from Amazon for $307.54USD like I did (I now have Canadian HST and currency added to my costs.)

The Kappa 42.9i speakers cannot be made to work. while the wings are in the right place, there is no space for the depth and width of the speaker. It's not just about the hole cutout. GM has the assembly doing double duty with the autodim sensor. These 42.9i speakers will go on sale.

There is a possibility that Infinity's 3002cfx speakers MAY fit. We will try them out. They have 25W rms 75W handling. I do suspect the they may be just a couple of millimeters too tall.


Way back in the beginning I thought of having the MS-8 being the only amp, except for the Subwoofer MS-A5001. The crowd seems to think that to get quality I must power these speakers at more than the 20W RMS the MS-8 delivers.

OK, newbie question? To be fully active using the MS-8 just means that all my speakers are controlled via the MS-8 "1 way" without using the passive Xover? One of my designs was this way near the beginning.

Sorta like this
Ch1 LF Tweeter from Infinity Kappa 60.11cs
Ch2 Center Coax Pioneer TS-A878 or something
Ch3 RF Tweeter from Infinity Kappa 60.11cs
Ch4 RF Door Midwoofer Infinity Kappa 60.11cs
Ch5 LF Door Midwoofer Infinity Kappa 60.11cs
CH6 LR Door Coax Infinity Kappa 62.11i
Ch7 RR Door Coax Infinity Kappa 62.11i
Ch8 Pair subwoofers in parallel using CDT 0690Gold speakers & MS-A5001 amp


----------



## 14642

slpery said:


> Ahhhh yes, but the MS-8 doesn't say "look left and right". It says drivers side (RHS for me) or passengers side (LHS).
> Anyways, I'm going to try setting it as though I'm in a LHD car.
> 
> This whole time ive had it wrong. Sounds bloody good though. Cant wait to get home to try it your way.



That's why is says "driver's side" and "passenger's side", "look left and "loo right". Then, when you choose "driver's side", it'll be correct for your right hand drive car.


----------



## slpery

*But it doesn't say look left or right.* It only says Look at drivers mirror, then look at passenger mirror. (Don't forget my drivers mirror is different to your drivers mirror)

So does that mean I start in my drivers seat (on the right) And look at my drivers mirror first? Because that would mean im looking right first.
That is how ive been doing it, but I think im wrong. 

Im now thinking I should start off in my passenger seat and look left first, then right. And then move to my drivers position and look left then right.
And then when listening, I set it to passenger. (which would be my RHS)


----------



## slpery

Yep.

I pretended to be an American in a left hand drive car.

And it now sounds much better. Probably helped that I changed my gain settings beforehand and adjusted my EQ also.


----------



## Ryanu

Meaning to say all RHD car has to start calibration from passenger side? Im getting confused here. Not that it sounded bad now.. but will it matters?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## 14642

Start in the driver's seat (no matter whether it's on the left or the right}. Then, the presets will be accurately labeled.


----------



## ansuser

Hi.

I'm working on "side effect speakers" that should be better than stock rear door locations (car is Mk6 VW Golf). I figured I can fit Fountek FR88ex fullranges complimented with 3/4" Dayton ND20FA tweeters (which sound OK at 4000 Hz and above).
I would like to cross them at 6 kHz (above this point I can hear too much sibilance from Founteks). What filter type would you recomend in this case?
Can I use only HP filter for tweeter and rely on MS-8 to equalize the response above X-over point?


----------



## Ryanu

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Start in the driver's seat (no matter whether it's on the left or the right}. Then, the presets will be accurately labeled.


Thanks for the clarification andy. All the best with the new product. Hopefully they will be available in the Asia market soon!

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


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## taibanl

timbyers said:


> Unplug the headphones.


Are you speaking from any direct experience? 

The reason I ask is because, while I don't have the headphones plugged in, I DO have an extension plugged in (which Andy has said to be ok), It's not at all easy to get to, so I hate to try and mess with it...but if it will fix that problem, then...its an easy call.


----------



## slpery

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Start in the driver's seat (no matter whether it's on the left or the right}. Then, the presets will be accurately labeled.


Got that. So the *first* instruction asks to "look at drivers side mirror", would I look to the left? 

Sorry for being annoying Andy, but I just want to get it clarified.


----------



## t3sn4f2

taibanl said:


> Are you speaking from any direct experience?
> 
> The reason I ask is because, while I don't have the headphones plugged in, I DO have an extension plugged in (which Andy has said to be ok), It's not at all easy to get to, so I hate to try and mess with it...but if it will fix that problem, then...its an easy call.


I remember NeilJ mentioning the MS-8 had some type of circuit that sensed when there was something connected in the mic jack. Or something to that effect. I know Andy mentioned i's ok to use the extension but I don't recall him ever clarifying if it was ok to leave that extension plugged in and open/unterminated on the other end. Assuming its installed correctly and not grounding out on the end of course.


----------



## kaigoss69

taibanl said:


> Are you speaking from any direct experience?
> 
> The reason I ask is because, while I don't have the headphones plugged in, I DO have an extension plugged in (which Andy has said to be ok), It's not at all easy to get to, so I hate to try and mess with it...but if it will fix that problem, then...its an easy call.


I recently had some random popping issues. Unplugged extension, problem solved.


----------



## IBcivic

slpery said:


> *But it doesn't say look left or right.* It only says Look at drivers mirror, then look at passenger mirror. (Don't forget my drivers mirror is different to your drivers mirror)
> 
> So does that mean I start in my drivers seat (on the right) And look at my drivers mirror first? Because that would mean im looking right first.
> That is how ive been doing it, but I think im wrong.
> 
> Im now thinking I should start off in my passenger seat and look left first, then right. And then move to my drivers position and look left then right.
> And then when listening, I set it to passenger. (which would be my RHS)


Why are you arguing with the main guy who was behind getting the MS-8 to work?


----------



## slpery

IBcivic said:


> Why are you arguing with the main guy who was behind getting the MS-8 to work?


What?

Im not arguing with him. Im just trying to get the answer I need. Is that a problem?

Anyway, I figured it out.


----------



## T3mpest

Anyone have any answers with my MS-8 woes? Right now it's hooked up to my factory Cadillac system in a 2009 SRX, the bose setup. Tweets in the sail, 5.25 speakers in the doors, 3inch center on the top of the dash. Rear sub as well, I've removed that sub and replaced it with a B&C21sw152-4. I spliced into the stock system before my amp so I have a clean full 20-20k signal. For the sweeps I've been running with the sub amp gain all the way down. If I run it at as a low volume sweep my sub is easily the most quiet speaker, so I know that's not the issue.

The stock crossover is being utilized so I set it up as a 1 way for my left and right speakers, 1 way center and a subwoofer. Crossovers all 4th order, mids cutting off at 80, center cut off at 200 (it's a small center) and sub comes in at 80hz

What I'm getting as a curve seems to be VERY weak on the midbass. It seems like the only EQ work the MS-8 is doing is on my midbass and it's slashing it. It also doesn't EQ my sub at all. With logic 7 on, the stage itself is pretty good, imaging goes on the dash, speakers disappear, etc, just crappy tonality. However, if I turn off logic 7, it all goes to ****. Honestly sounds NO better than stock, if I didn't no better I'd say it's not time aligning at all. Center disappears, all locations immediately obvious, I could easily tune it better using standard T/A on a stock deck. The stock center channel seems to be what's holding it all together when logic 7 is on.. If I couldn't utilize logic 7 this thing would have been a total waste of money so far.

I've tried all different level of sweeps, -45 to -50 or so seems to do the best. I also found that if I tell the MS-8 during setup that I don't have a sub, and set it so that I am using a 2 way+center with the "2 way" being my stock components and sub, the sub is EQ'ed properly. I shouldn't have to do that and it wastes channels for when I finally upgrade properly.

Hopefully I gave enough detail, here are the issues summarized

1.Sub not EQ'ed at all unless I set it up as a 2way, treating my sub like a main
2.Weak midbass no matter what level of sweep I choose
3.Tweeters seem bright, but that "could" be me
4.Staging sucks unless logic 7 is ON, seems like it does NOTHING except cut midbass if I disable that.

Anyway fairly frustrated, if someone can tell me the key to getting into the bypass for level matching I can try that as another step, but that's all I think I haven't tried a this point.


----------



## subwoofery

Did you use a polarity tester when you hooked everything up? I know some factory systems have some drivers with polarity reversed or hooked up wrong... 

Kelvin


----------



## Todd Hall

tbomb said:


> I just went to edit my post when I realized they were subs but you beat me to it!
> My suggestion is (and this will not be popular) Run everything off MS8 with front stage being fully active. Tell your installer to figure out how to get the kappa 4 to work as center. Surely he can find a custom solution that isnt too crazy. If anything he could use existing grill as baffle and top mount driver using infinty grill....maybe wrap in matching cloth? just guessing on that since im not familiar with vehicle, but he should be able to get that in there. Then power each 6x9 of of bridged chnnels of 1004 or off 5001. This is how am utilizing my ms8. The kappas are 2 ohm, i believe, so should sound great!
> 
> Then you have a much simpler install from equipment standpoint.
> 
> And you can sell me your other 4 channel! Please! in fact use the 5001 and I'll buy both 4 channels!


You get the gold star of the day.

Picked up the car at 9pm. Everything is functional, but there is some tweaking to do. We need Dynamat for the rear deck, a plastic clip causes rattles in trunk, and getting Logic 7 is turned off by the installer.

I had the installers Power everything off the MS-8, and just the 6X9 subwoofers off the MS-A5001. We wired for the 2 MS-A1004s, but did not install them. We just left the fuses out of the distribution block for those amps, and didn't connect the wire to anything.

Amazingly the car is LOUD at half volume. The Infinity Kappas are very efficient, and we are running DIYMA 12 gauge wire to all speakers. We ended up using an Infinity Reference X 3002cfx 3.5" speaker for the center. This speaker fit with a couple of mm to spare above the tweeter.

The installers and I have agreed for now that we don't need the MS-A1004s. We argued about it before the install, but afterwords we don't see a need for them.


----------



## tbomb

@todd glad you are enjoying the suggestions! so many just want to throw pwer at everything. Power is nice, but unnecessary for a solid build with MS8.


----------



## BEAVER

Any of you ever try to use the MS-8's internal amplification to power an entire system? I'm considering doing it on a temporary basis, but may just wait, depending upon the results others have seen.


----------



## Todd Hall

If your original head unit was able to power your system, then the MS-8 can do so as well. It probably will have a bit more power.

If you are replacing speakers and/or wire with more efficient models, then you would be even better off.

Unlike other DSPs, the mS-8 is designed to provide the power your head unit provided, but also up to 8 channels.


----------



## Todd Hall

Door Chimes and Turn Signals LOUD

Now that the MS-8 is installed, the turn signals and Chimes are LOUD. The Intellilink head unit only has settings for Normal and Loud and the setting is set to Normal.

Any suggestions on how to lower the volume of car system sounds?


----------



## avimsg

rcurley55 said:


> I tried posting this in the General Forum, but should have just placed it here. Sorry for the cross-post but:
> 
> I updated the firmware in an attempt to alleviate the bluetooth echo issue. Is there a way to restore my firmware to the original setting?
> 
> I've searched everywhere and can't seem to find an answer.


Hi, I have the same problem...  
Have you found any solution?
10x


----------



## kaigoss69

avimsg said:


> Hi, I have the same problem...
> Have you found any solution?
> 10x


Contact JBL support?! Why change back???


----------



## avimsg

kaigoss69 said:


> Contact JBL support?! Why change back???


Hi,

Thanks for the response.

I actually contacted JBL support and they asked me for my location. From my experience they just want to refer me to the local supplier in my country, which won't do any help. Currently, I'm waiting for their second reply, after I explained that what I need is just the original "*Display.hex*" firmware file, which was the only file that has changed since the base firmware.

The reasons I want to restore the original firmware:
1. As you know, the upgrade changed the "Mute" button to cancel all processing. Not only that it doesn't solve my problem, but it makes me unsure whether the processing is on or off.
2. Since the upgrade didn't solve my problem, I want to be able to use the Mute button as Mute again.

P.S
My original problem was not related to BT speaker, but to synchronization between sound and video (I installed a little TV).


----------



## avimsg

avimsg said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for the response.
> 
> I actually contacted JBL support and they asked me for my location. From my experience they just want to refer me to the local supplier in my country, which won't do any help. Currently, I'm waiting for their second reply, after I explained that what I need is just the original "*Display.hex*" firmware file, which was the only file that has changed since the base firmware.
> 
> The reasons I want to restore the original firmware:
> 1. As you know, the upgrade changed the "Mute" button to cancel all processing. Not only that it doesn't solve my problem, but it makes me unsure whether the processing is on or off.
> 2. Since the upgrade didn't solve my problem, I want to be able to use the Mute button as Mute again.
> 
> P.S
> My original problem was not related to BT speaker, but to synchronization between sound and video (I installed a little TV).


An update:
Harman's support returned me a mail, and as I expected, despite of asking them not to do so, they sent me again to the local distributor... All that support is someone that sits there and gives contact details to distributors. They could pretty much the same, publish a list of all distributors, and give no support at all. It was nothing but a waste of time...


----------



## stylngle2003

You may need to take the factory chime output and send it to its own speaker. Do you have a wiring diagram for your OEM system? There are several PAC products that will let you adjust the level of the chime but I think they would just add complexity and noise to your install.


----------



## Todd Hall

stylngle2003 said:


> You may need to take the factory chime output and send it to its own speaker. Do you have a wiring diagram for your OEM system? There are several PAC products that will let you adjust the level of the chime but I think they would just add complexity and noise to your install.


I can deal with the Chimes, its the Turn Signals that are a bit irritating.

I haven't found a wiring diagram for my Buick Verano, but I have found one for the Chevrolet Cruze that uses the same radio, (MyLink vs Intellilink) and is built in the same plant and use a similar platform.

But, there is a setting in the Intellink menu that sets the Chime volume to "Normal" or "High." This makes me feel that I need a hack to allow a low setting.

There is no PAC product for my vehicle. For that matter, there is no product from Schosche, Metra or Best.

I will be working on car settings tomorrow after we Dynamat the rear deck assembly. I'll ask the installers about the separate speaker option.

Thanks


----------



## stylngle2003

I found this pertaining to a Cruze with Nav, which seems to use the same 44-pin connector as your Verano with IntelliLink PAC AA-GM44 Questions.

the cruze guys seem to be using the pac AA-gm44 unit but i have read that it can pick up noise.

this one from Crutchfield is for an aftermarket radio but allows adjustable chime volume. Axxess GMOS-044 Factory Integration Adapter Connect a new car stereo and retain OnStar® and safety warning chimes in select 2011-up GM vehicles at Crutchfield.com just a thought. there must be some way to intercept. 

also, found these posted in a cruze thread taken from AllData. Maybe your installers would know which wire corresponds to the chime signal?


----------



## Todd Hall

I tank you for your research. 

If I was to replace the head unit the PAC AA-GM44 unit is $200 plus you need a $80 steering wheel interface, plus the cost of installation. Plus, you have to add a Bluetooth adapter.
And, this is for a Cruze, not a Verano.

The alldata information does not appear to be for my vehicle. I have the GM 200 connector mapping, and do not see connections relating to the chimes.

I think a software update is the best solution.


----------



## rcurley55

avimsg said:


> An update:
> Harman's support returned me a mail, and as I expected, despite of asking them not to do so, they sent me again to the local distributor... All that support is someone that sits there and gives contact details to distributors. They could pretty much the same, publish a list of all distributors, and give no support at all. It was nothing but a waste of time...


I haven't checked this in months, just saw your request on a whim. I'll send you a PM to discuss.


----------



## rcurley55

Guys,

I had a hell of a time getting my system setup with my MS-8. I had the typical BMW issues of no midbass and boomy subs. I'm going to give this another shot, but without the sub, here was my plan:

Channel 1&2: Morel Hybrid Ovation 4" Components powered from 2 channels of an Arc 125.4 Mini
Channel 3&4: Jehnert XE200 8" drivers powered from a bridged Arc 125.4 mini
Channel 5&6: Morel Integra 4" co-ax active from the other two channels of an Arc 125.4 mini
Channel 7&8: Factory 4" components powered from the MS-8 amp

I'm thinking that should work out nicely. Any tips for running the calibration when you have speakers connected to both outboard amplifiers and the MS-8?


----------



## tbomb

If I understand correctly, channel 8 has to be designated for sub and you can also designate channel 7 for sub if you wish. I may be wrong. Also, is this set up for 2way passive fronts, midbass, sides and rears? i would probably sacrifice rears and use 1 coax for center. MY recommendation:

CH1/2 front components
channel 3 center
ch4/5 sides (use rear deck speakers off ms8)
ch7/8 stock subs up to 180hz or so

yes you will have an empty channel but it leaves one open if you do add sub later. I believe andy would agree that adding center vs "rears" would be much more beneficial.

Either way the underseat subs must be on ch 7/8. I would also run them of 2 channel....they are plenty efficient and amp gives plenty power. This now gives you two more amp channels. Giving a total of 3 channels that could be used for sub duty if you wished. Options are extensive. 3 efficient dvc 10's IB, 1 12 dvc powered by all 3 channels, multiples or single sub, as long as imp and efficiency are considered you could do a lot of interesting things and have plenty of power.once the signal comes out of MS8 doesnt matter where you send it with outboard mps.

As far as setup mixing self powered and outboard just follow the normal setup rule for using amps. set gains to 2.2v and turn sweep volume to 40-50.

This would give a lot of system flexibility in future.


----------



## rcurley55

tbomb said:


> If I understand correctly, channel 8 has to be designated for sub and you can also designate channel 7 for sub if you wish. I may be wrong. Also, is this set up for 2way passive fronts, midbass, sides and rears? i would probably sacrifice rears and use 1 coax for center. MY recommendation:
> 
> CH1/2 front components
> channel 3 center
> ch4/5 sides (use rear deck speakers off ms8)
> ch7/8 stock subs up to 180hz or so
> 
> yes you will have an empty channel but it leaves one open if you do add sub later. I believe andy would agree that adding center vs "rears" would be much more beneficial.
> 
> Either way the underseat subs must be on ch 7/8. I would also run them of 2 channel....they are plenty efficient and amp gives plenty power. This now gives you two more amp channels. Giving a total of 3 channels that could be used for sub duty if you wished. Options are extensive. 3 efficient dvc 10's IB, 1 12 dvc powered by all 3 channels, multiples or single sub, as long as imp and efficiency are considered you could do a lot of interesting things and have plenty of power.once the signal comes out of MS8 doesnt matter where you send it with outboard mps.
> 
> As far as setup mixing self powered and outboard just follow the normal setup rule for using amps. set gains to 2.2v and turn sweep volume to 40-50.
> 
> This would give a lot of system flexibility in future.


I'll have to check the manual for the 7/8 limitations. If the maximum low pass on the sub end is 180, that would suit my purposes just fine as the 4" components can pick up from 180.

I'm running the 4" passive, and have no intentions of making them active. I want the center to be active because no matter where I put the passive (I've tried 4 different locations), it picks up noise from the car. The rears will be passive (I have no sides).

Right now, the 8" give enough bass down to about 30 Hz or so that I am willing to sacrifice not having a true sub.


----------



## tbomb

Aah, i was thinking tge coax was a pair for side duty. as far a sub,ch8 is def for sub only so 7/8 for underseat. you can go higher or lower on crossover, whatever works just suggested 180 as a good starting point.


----------



## taibanl

There is nothing restricting ch8 to subs on the output sides. Te only limfac is that on the input side, ms8 looks to signal sum (reconstruct) the signal from high freqs first then low so in that case its recommended to put LF on ch7/8 to be sure.


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## 14642

^^This is correct. Outputs can be anything. When the unit UN-EQs the input, it has to poll a high frequency channel before a low frequency channel. It starts at channel 1 and that's why I indicated in the manual that the sub output of the factory system should be connected to channels 7 and or 8. Technically, it can be any channel except channel 1, so long as something that includes high frequencies is connected to channel 1.


----------



## tbomb

Aaah i stand corrected by the man himself! I knew there was some connection between subs and ch 8, just thought it went both ways.


----------



## diynube

*Placement of Tweeter and Midrange?*

I have a 9th gen Corolla and I really can't decide where to place the tweeter and the mids. The mid-bass drivers are already mounted in the factory location towards the lower front corner of the doors.

I have the MS-8 and will be going fully active 3-way up front.
Tweeter: Hertz ML 280
http://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/Doc/Hertz_Mille_TechSheet_ML_280.pdf
Midrange: Hertz ML 700
http://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/Doc/Hertz_Mille_TechSheet_ML_700.pdf
Mid-bass: Hertz ML 1600
http://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/Doc/Hertz_Mille_TechSheet_ML_1600.pdf

Where would you guys put these drivers? Andy's thread regarding the on-axis or off-axis placements of drivers really has me on the fence. Initially, I was thinking A-pillar locations with the midrange vented into the dash but now I'm thinking perhaps the midrange could go on the upper part of the door and the tweeter somewhere on the A-pillar. 
Any thoughts?

This is what the interior of the car looks like. Stock tweeter locations are in the sails.


----------



## quality_sound

On axis in the sail panels. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Golden Ear

^ What he said. Both mid and tweet up there to get most of your sound as on-axis as possible and up around the dash.


----------



## THE VIKING

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ^^This is correct. Outputs can be anything. When the unit UN-EQs the input, it has to poll a high frequency channel before a low frequency channel. It starts at channel 1 and that's why I indicated in the manual that the sub output of the factory system should be connected to channels 7 and or 8. Technically, it can be any channel except channel 1, so long as something that includes high frequencies is connected to channel 1.


So that has cleared that up if I'm running a single sub with the ms8 do I use just one channel of the ms8 into my amp and use a splitter on the RCA input of the amp so that I can bridge the amp ?


----------



## tbomb

Yes you can, but some amps dont require both inputs to be plugged in. The jbl MS amps dont. If you arent sure about yours then a y adapter is the way to go


----------



## diynube

quality_sound said:


> On axis in the sail panels.





Golden Ear said:


> ^ What he said. Both mid and tweet up there to get most of your sound as on-axis as possible and up around the dash.


Thanks for the rapid response. Do you feel that what Andy is saying about having a small mid in the upper door area need not apply in this situation?

It seems to me the sail panel is too small to fit both the mid and the tweet, but I could be wrong about that. Perhaps it could make sense to put the drivers on-axis in the A-pillars just above the sail panel?


----------



## chofilena

What is the solution to weak midbass? I am using a 3way component system, mid and tweeters are on passive x-over. Drivers location are in the kick panel and powering them with a 50x2 amp. The midbass is in the stock door location powering them with a 50x4 amp bridged, which I think will give 200watts on each speaker. But why is my midbass so weak? 
I also have a Center speaker and powering them of with a 50x2 amp bridged and a single sub with a 300 watt amp. Problem is my midbass sounds weak and sub is loud. Overall sound, some frequencies are missing. What could be the problem?


----------



## 14642

chofilena said:


> What is the solution to weak midbass? I am using a 3way component system, mid and tweeters are on passive x-over. Drivers location are in the kick panel and powering them with a 50x2 amp. The midbass is in the stock door location powering them with a 50x4 amp bridged, which I think will give 200watts on each speaker. But why is my midbass so weak?
> I also have a Center speaker and powering them of with a 50x2 amp bridged and a single sub with a 300 watt amp. Problem is my midbass sounds weak and sub is loud. Overall sound, some frequencies are missing. What could be the problem?



Please describe the woofers, box, subwoofer location and crossover points for sub, front and center (if you're using one).


----------



## kapone

I don't know about y'all, but I "think" I'm getting great midbass with my setup with an MS-8.

Doors - 6.5" PPI 356cs in _sealed_, heavily damped enclosures and tweeters in the sail panel, both off of the stock PPI passive crossover.
Sub - W15GTi running IB in the trunk through the ski pass hole.

My front - sub crossover is at 80Hz right now. I've tried both 12db and 24db slopes, and both sound great, although there's subtle differences, which I'm still trying to decide if one is better than the other.

I do have the "bass" control in the Tone controls up by 3 notches, and treble down by 2 notches. 

In the Graphical EQ settings, I have a 1.5db bump around 90, 100, 120, 160 (I think I'm getting these numbers right, I'm going off memory, will need to double check in the car) and down 6db around 40Hz (My car has a big cabin gain around that).

Maybe I just don't know what "midbass" is??  If it means feel it in the chest, that's there, if it means something else, I'm not so sure.


----------



## rcurley55

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Please describe the woofers, box, subwoofer location and crossover points for sub, front and center (if you're using one).


I'll piggy back on this discuss b/c nothing I have tried on this forum has worked yet. I had the following:

4" Morel Hybrid Ovation comps in stock door locations
4" Morel Integra Ovation co-ax in center
4" Tempo co-ax in rear
8" Jehnert midbass under seat
12W6 v2 corner-loaded (JL Audio Stealthbox) in the trunk

Everything receiving 75W and then 500 going to the sub (all power from Arc Audio Mini amps). All in a BMW 535i. Crossover points were 200 and 70 for front hi/front low/sub; 200 and up for center, 120 and up for the rear.

I was thinking of powering the rears from the MS-8, then putting 200 to each midbass and seeing what that does.


----------



## taibanl

rcurley55 said:


> I'll piggy back on this discuss b/c nothing I have tried on this forum has worked yet. I had the following:
> 
> 4" comps in stock door locations
> 4" co-ax in center
> 4" co-ax in rear
> 8" midbass under seat
> 12W6 v2 corner-loaded in the trunk
> 
> Everything receiving 75W and then 500 going to the sub. All in a BMW 535i. Crossover points were 200 and 70 for front hi/front low/sub; 200 and up for center, 120 and up for the rear.
> 
> I was thinking of powering the rears from the MS-8, then putting 200 to each midbass and seeing what that does.


So you HAVE tried the kaigoss mod?


----------



## kaigoss69

taibanl said:


> So you HAVE tried the kaigoss mod?


I'd recommend trying the amp crossover trick first - if possible, engage the amp's LP filter on the midbass channels to cut off a natural response peak of the 8's in the 300Hz region. This peak reduces midbass levels. So if you are crossing over at 200Hz, put the amp LP at about 240Hz, 24dB/oct if possible.


----------



## 14642

Can't find any information about those midbass drivers. Owner's manual doesn't include any, but it does include a notes page for pizza deliver phone numbers.


----------



## kaigoss69

kaigoss69 said:


> I'd recommend trying the amp crossover trick first - if possible, engage the amp's LP filter on the midbass channels to cut off a natural response peak of the 8's in the 300Hz region. This peak reduces midbass levels. So if you are crossing over at 200Hz, put the amp LP at about 240Hz, 24dB/oct if possible.


Oh, and after you do this, recalibrate of course!


----------



## rcurley55

taibanl said:


> So you HAVE tried the kaigoss mod?


Referring to splitting the signal post MS-8 for the sub and midbass? No.


----------



## rcurley55

kaigoss69 said:


> I'd recommend trying the amp crossover trick first - if possible, engage the amp's LP filter on the midbass channels to cut off a natural response peak of the 8's in the 300Hz region. This peak reduces midbass levels. So if you are crossing over at 200Hz, put the amp LP at about 240Hz, 24dB/oct if possible.


Tried it, didn't make any appreciable change.


----------



## kaigoss69

rcurley55 said:


> Tried it, didn't make any appreciable change.


It should make a difference. Make sure your levels are matched through the hidden menu. Do it with the LP crossover engaged. Underseats should be within 2-3 dB of fronts and rears. Sub is another story. Here level matching doesn't work. I NEVER got a good calibration with the sub in the trunk (I don't have ski-pass or fold down seats so it is very well isolated from the cabin). The only way I was able to get the sub to integrate properly was to extend the speaker wiring and put it in the back seat for calibration with normal polarity. I had the gain as low as possible. Then after calibration, I put it back in the trunk and reversed polarity. That worked well.

If you can't get the above to work for you, try the mod where you set-up and calibrate without the sub, and later split the signal at the amp.


----------



## rcurley55

kaigoss69 said:


> It should make a difference. Make sure your levels are matched through the hidden menu. Do it with the LP crossover engaged. Underseats should be within 2-3 dB of fronts and rears. Sub is another story. Here level matching doesn't work.


Did this too



> I NEVER got a good calibration with the sub in the trunk (I don't have ski-pass or fold down seats so it is very well isolated from the cabin). The only way I was able to get the sub to integrate properly was to extend the speaker wiring and put it in the back seat for calibration with normal polarity. I had the gain as low as possible. Then after calibration, I put it back in the trunk and reversed polarity. That worked well.
> 
> If you can't get the above to work for you, try the mod where you set-up and calibrate without the sub, and later split the signal at the amp.


At some point, we reach a place where it's not worth it...this is one of those places as far as I'm concerned. I think I will just leave the sub out and go with the rest of the speakers.


----------



## chofilena

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Please describe the woofers, box, subwoofer location and crossover points for sub, front and center (if you're using one).


Car: 2011 Ford fiesta hatch
Subwoofer: TC EPIC 10 in a .55cuft enclosure. Location of the sub is at the Center of the baggage compartment and facing towards the back door. X-over 70hz.
Midwoofer: Cdt ES 6.5(doors stock location)200hz
Midrange: CDT ES 3(kick panel) passive x-over
Tweeter: DRT 25(kick panel) passive x-over
Center channel: MB QM100kn-s(Center dash) x-over 200hz
Rear: coaxial Boston acoustics 6.5 (rear doors stock location) x-over 100hz


----------



## kaigoss69

rcurley55 said:


> At some point, we reach a place where it's not worth it...this is one of those places as far as I'm concerned. I think I will just leave the sub out and go with the rest of the speakers.


Ten minutes of your time is not worth it? I bet I've spent more time than that replying to your posts on this forum... but whatever!


----------



## 14642

So, MS-8 uses 50Hz to 80Hz to set the level of the sub. I think that in the BMW, the fact that the trunk is well isolated from the cabin reduces that range, so MS-8 boosts the level of the sub and then attempts to correct all of that with EQ and that's why the midbass suffers in these cars.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So, MS-8 uses 50Hz to 80Hz to set the level of the sub. I think that in the BMW, the fact that the trunk is well isolated from the cabin reduces that range, so MS-8 boosts the level of the sub and then attempts to correct all of that with EQ and that's why the midbass suffers in these cars.


I think you're right Andy, and that's why putting the sub in the back seat during calibration works better! 

Another issue though are the underseat 8" woofers. If you do everything by the "book", you will end up with weak midbass. I think there is some connection between weak midbass and the trunk sub isolation, because If you delete the sub from the MS-8 set-up and let the woofers play down to 20Hz, you suddenly have midbass!

But there is also a problem with the way the processor sets the midbass levels, due to a peak at about 300-350Hz. If you remove this peak with the amp LP filter, the midbass level increases.

Furthermore )), myself and others have experienced a difference in output of the left and right woofers. The left (driver's side) woofer always plays louder than the right one. I think I know why. Take a look at the FR of the left and right underseat woofers. The right one has that substantial peak at 300-350Hz, whereas the left one does not. So I think the right woofer level is attenuated more due to the higher peak. This again can be taken care of with the amp LP filter.


----------



## taibanl

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So, MS-8 uses 50Hz to 80Hz to set the level of the sub. I think that in the BMW, the fact that the trunk is well isolated from the cabin reduces that range, so MS-8 boosts the level of the sub and then attempts to correct all of that with EQ and that's why the midbass suffers in these cars.


. I am convinced that the sub sweep runs much higher than that. I never check the frequency range. But I am a musician, specifically a bass player. When I was doing extensive testing with The various kaigoss mods including The backseat tuning and seats folded down it sounded to me like the sub was sweeping up into 3 to 400 Hz range. The frequencies below 80 Hz had no problems entering the cabin however the higher end of this week I didn't even hear it until I walked around to the back of my car with the trunk open. Of course andy, this was your baby, so I presume you are way smarter than me, but perhaps this was an accident in programming


----------



## kaigoss69

taibanl said:


> . I am convinced that the sub sweep runs much higher than that. I never check the frequency range. But I am a musician, specifically a bass player. When I was doing extensive testing with The various kaigoss mods including The backseat tuning and seats folded down it sounded to me like the sub was sweeping up into 3 to 400 Hz range. The frequencies below 80 Hz had no problems entering the cabin however the higher end of this week I didn't even hear it until I walked around to the back of my car with the trunk open. Of course andy, this was your baby, so I presume you are way smarter than me, but perhaps this was an accident in programming


Could be, but that does not mean that the algorithm is "looking" for anything outside the 50-80Hz range!


----------



## 14642

Yes, it sweeps higher than that. It's necessary to determine the shape of the sub rolloff. It doesn't EQ up there, though.


----------



## chofilena

So what do we do with the sub? Fold the backrest of the back seat during calibration or put the subwoofer on the back seat when doing the calibration? If the sub is in the trunk and facing towards the door, should I reverse the polarity after calibration or sub should always be facing towards the inside of the car when calibrating with the seats down/ seat up. And turn the sub back around facing the back door after calibrating ? I have the ms8 for 3 years and not once I have been happy with my sub. I also tried changing enclosures but still I can't make it sound right.


----------



## alachua

I am still struggling to get my MS8 to sound as good as I think it can. My current problem is that I am getting a HARD right balance, switching from processing active to disabled reveals that this isn't a driver/hardware issue, it is in the tune. System is as follows:

Car: 2004 Subaru Impreza WRX STi. 
Head: Pioneer avic F90bt
Amps: JL 450/4, JL 500/1
Tweeters: Vifa XT25 with 50uf cap inline
Mids: Polk SR6500
Sub: Image Dynamics IDMax 12.v2

Install: The tweeters are in cups on the sail panel, the driver side is aimed fairly on axis with my left ear, the passenger side is aimed more towards firing straight across the dash than on axis. The doors are moderately sealed using Raammat to cover any large holes, thick window gasket foam is used to 'seal' the speaker to the door panel grill. Sub is installed in the center front of the trunk, 1.4 ft^3 sealed box. There is no ski pass through, the sub fires directly into the rear seat.

Amp gains are set to the minimal setting (2v according to the manual) for the tweeters and sub during calibration. The mid bass speakers have a slight bump in gain to give a fairly level measurement according to REQW and my minidsp mic. Calibration is typically done with volume levels between -40 and -46, -44 has given the best results, -36 results in almost a complete lack of midbass. Post calibration the sub gain is raised from 7 o'clock (min) to approx 9:30 on the dial. Crossover points are currently 2750/100hz. 

Environment limitations: the car is LOUD. Even with a stock exhaust there is a tremendous amount of road noise and exhaust noise that enters the cabin. From the factory the car has nearly no deadening. I have added some CLD, but currently no MLV. For normal listening I have the radio set at or near max (58-62 of 62), with the MS8 between -4 - -6 on the volume control depending on the recording. The sub level is almost always between +20-40% on the MS8 and I have added +2-3 db from 20hz to 45hz on the eq to account for that range being cancelled out by the car when driving.

Male voices pull hard to the right side, to the point that I often have to physically feel if the left side is playing to reassure myself I haven't broken something. Same thing with many cymbals.


----------



## 14642

All speakers (especially the mids) connected in proper polarity? If one was reversed it would do this.


----------



## rcurley55

If you have inserted a microphone extension cable in the system, and that cable is bad, it can also pull to one side due to a poor calibration (I thought my MS-8 was faulty - turns out it was a bad cable that I added to the system).


----------



## tbomb

is it really pulling to right or were you expecting center to be in front of you and not center of dash? that sounds kinda smart ass, but it has been asked before. (placement of center that is, not your specific issue)

I remeber some debate regarding what is "true" center. some felt it should be directly in front of you. i know when i heard it for first time it was a little strange.

Of course, it could be what andy said. Not like he knows what hes talking about!


----------



## Darth SQ

Subscribed.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## alachua

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> All speakers (especially the mids) connected in proper polarity? If one was reversed it would do this.


I'll double check, I am 95% positive that I have confirmed this before, but I may have made an oversight. Worst case, if everything appears to be correct I'll try reversing the polarity of one of the mids and seeing if that fixes the issue, certainly wouldn't be the first I've read of a driver being mismarked.



rcurley55 said:


> If you have inserted a microphone extension cable in the system, and that cable is bad, it can also pull to one side due to a poor calibration (I thought my MS-8 was faulty - turns out it was a bad cable that I added to the system).


No extension, I have the MS8 under the passenger seat so the mic port is very accessible. 



tbomb said:


> is it really pulling to right or were you expecting center to be in front of you and not center of dash? that sounds kinda smart ass, but it has been asked before. (placement of center that is, not your specific issue)
> 
> I remeber some debate regarding what is "true" center. some felt it should be directly in front of you. i know when i heard it for first time it was a little strange.
> 
> Of course, it could be what andy said. Not like he knows what hes talking about!


Oh, no offense taken. It is pulling so much that there is no stage/image when this is most noticeable, it sounds like the left speakers are attenuated or no tweeter is hooked up. Some instruments image as I would expect, snares for instance are typically dead center of the dash, but bass guitars sound like the bassist is sitting in my passenger footwell.


----------



## jdsoldger

alachua said:


> Oh, no offense taken. It is pulling so much that there is no stage/image when this is most noticeable, it sounds like the left speakers are attenuated or no tweeter is hooked up. Some instruments image as I would expect, snares for instance are typically dead center of the dash, but bass guitars sound like the bassist is sitting in my passenger footwell.


One other thing to eliminate is a loose connection somewhere. There is currently something loose in the crossover in my car, which lives right below the sub and causes the left tweeter to switch between three states, crossed over second order at 2.8 khz, crossed over first order at 4khz or so and off compleetly. It does really weird things with the stageing ( and hopefully will be fixed this weekend).


----------



## alachua

jdsoldger said:


> One other thing to eliminate is a loose connection somewhere. There is currently something loose in the crossover in my car, which lives right below the sub and causes the left tweeter to switch between three states, crossed over second order at 2.8 khz, crossed over first order at 4khz or so and off compleetly. It does really weird things with the stageing ( and hopefully will be fixed this weekend).


I will double check the connections when I verify polarity, though if that were the case I would expect the issue to present itself when processing was defeated as well. The only connection between the mids and the amp is a Radio Shack barrier strip on the amp rack which should be good and tight. The tweeters have spade connectors on the leads off the tweeters that are directly connected to the (-) line while the (+) line has the cap connected inline with spade connectors.


----------



## tbomb

Is it only when calibrated to driver? How you tried other location to see if other anomolies occur? I know when I'm switching from driver to front the "passenger" setting sounds similar to what you described.


----------



## alachua

tbomb said:


> Is it only when calibrated to driver? How you tried other location to see if other anomolies occur? I know when I'm switching from driver to front the "passenger" setting sounds similar to what you described.


Ever since using driver/passenger calibrations caused the MS8 to let the smoke out of one of my tweeters (airplane noise of doom) I've not used them. I calibrate only for the driver's seat and always disable Logic7.


----------



## tbomb

Hmm. I'm out of answers. I typical always run L7, but if I ever disable it I don't lose center. Almost have to touck center channel to make sure it isn't playing. Only other thing I can think (if polarity isn't issue) the install has a natural peak or dip in fr that ms8 cant fix


----------



## peleincubus

So I got a nissan 370z recently. And would like to keep the oem head unit and also upgrade to some nice hertz components and a good sq sub/amp. 

What I'm curious about is if I get the ms8 will my other "high quality" parts of the system suffer? Meaning is the ms8 essentially like having a after market head unit?

I just don't want to spend good money on speakers etc and be at a disadvantage with the factory head unit.


----------



## vrdublu

So I gave my car to my Nephew and pulled all the amps out and left the MS-8 hooked up and everything else untouched. I hooked up the high level output cables JBL supplies to use the built in amps. Ran the setup sequence including the input setup which shouldn't have changed but....did it anyway, it passed ok across the board. I reset everything prior to setup as well just to clear my previous settings which were all low level inputs and outputs. 

When I run setup after setting filters, and just before the the test tones, there's a menu to check levels. I have no output whatsoever, I'm racking my brains here trying to figure out why, but I'm stumped....

This is the way I have the wiring setup for the speaker outputs

Ch1-LF-Tweet
Ch2-RF-Tweet
Ch3-LF-Mid
Ch4-RF-Mid
Ch5-LF-Midbass
Ch6-RF-Midbass
Ch7-LR-SL
Ch8-RR-SL

Any help would be greatly appreciated if anyone else has come across this. I'm thinking the amp section of the MS-8 is blown, but everything seems to be working ok......


----------



## alachua

vrdublu said:


> So I gave my car to my Nephew and pulled all the amps out and left the MS-8 hooked and everything else untouched. I hooked up the high level output cables JBL supplies to use the built in amps. Ran the setup sequence including the input setup which shouldn't have changed but....did it anyway, it passed ok across the board. I reset everything prior to setup as well just to clear my previous settings which were all low level inputs and outputs.
> 
> When I run setup after setting filters, and just before the the test tones, there's a menu to check levels. I have no output whatsoever, I'm racking my brains here trying to figure out why, but I'm stumped....
> 
> This is the way I have the wiring setup for the speaker outputs
> 
> Ch1-LF-Tweet
> Ch2-RF-Tweet
> Ch3-LF-Mid
> Ch4-RF-Mid
> Ch5-LF-Midbass
> Ch6-RF-Midbass
> Ch7-LR-SL
> Ch8-RR-SL
> 
> Any help would be greatly appreciated if anyone else has come across this. I'm thinking the amp section of the MS-8 is blown, but everything seems to be working ok......


What volume levels are you running the test tones at? Perhaps it is just too low to tell. I know it sounds silly, but make sure you hooked the connector to the output side molex and not the input side. If you still aren't getting anything I would disconnect a speaker and hook up a small speaker on a short lead just as a test, it is possible that the inboard amp has become damaged and you never knew until you needed it.


----------



## vrdublu

alachua said:


> What volume levels are you running the test tones at? Perhaps it is just too low to tell. I know it sounds silly, but make sure you hooked the connector to the output side molex and not the input side. If you still aren't getting anything I would disconnect a speaker and hook up a small speaker on a short lead just as a test, it is possible that the inboard amp has become damaged and you never knew until you needed it.


Test tones were run at -20dB, even at 0dB there is no output. Everything is hooked up correctly, I double and triple checked. Spent 3 hours dicking around with it


----------



## tbomb

vrdublu said:


> Test tones were run at -20dB, even at 0dB there is no output. Everything is hooked up correctly, I double and triple checked. Spent 3 hours dicking around with it [/QUO
> 
> Did you unplug the rcas on the output section, or just pull other amps out without disconnecting them from ms8?


----------



## vrdublu

tbomb said:


> vrdublu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Test tones were run at -20dB, even at 0dB there is no output. Everything is hooked up correctly, I double and triple checked. Spent 3 hours dicking around with it [/QUO
> 
> Did you unplug the rcas on the output section, or just pull other amps out without disconnecting them from ms8?
> 
> 
> 
> There was no need for the low level outputs any longer, that was the first thing to go.
Click to expand...


----------



## taibanl

vrdublu said:


> Test tones were run at -20dB, even at 0dB there is no output. Everything is hooked up correctly, I double and triple checked. Spent 3 hours dicking around with it


Hard to say but sounds install related. Hard to imagine all 8 IC amps failed similtaneously. IIRC while the the low level are oriented left to right in pairs, the plus and minus f speaker outs are vertical.


----------



## kaigoss69

vrdublu said:


> So I gave my car to my Nephew and pulled all the amps out and left the MS-8 hooked up and everything else untouched. I hooked up the high level output cables JBL supplies to use the built in amps. Ran the setup sequence including the input setup which shouldn't have changed but....did it anyway, it passed ok across the board. I reset everything prior to setup as well just to clear my previous settings which were all low level inputs and outputs.
> 
> When I run setup after setting filters, and just before the the test tones, there's a menu to check levels. I have no output whatsoever, I'm racking my brains here trying to figure out why, but I'm stumped....
> 
> This is the way I have the wiring setup for the speaker outputs
> 
> Ch1-LF-Tweet
> Ch2-RF-Tweet
> Ch3-LF-Mid
> Ch4-RF-Mid
> Ch5-LF-Midbass
> Ch6-RF-Midbass
> Ch7-LR-SL
> Ch8-RR-SL
> 
> Any help would be greatly appreciated if anyone else has come across this. I'm thinking the amp section of the MS-8 is blown, but everything seems to be working ok......


Try a factory reset!


----------



## vrdublu

taibanl said:


> Hard to say but sounds install related. Hard to imagine all 8 IC amps failed similtaneously. IIRC while the the low level are oriented left to right in pairs, the plus and minus f speaker outs are vertical.


Pretty hard to imagine it's an install issue as all I did was remove amps, low level cables and install supplied wire harness for high level output that plugs in only one way and is marked on each end. But anything is possible I suppose. I will check again, but I've been beating that horse to death. :laugh:



kaigoss69 said:


> Try a factory reset!


This is the one through the system or the reset button next to the high level output? Did both, unless there's another?


----------



## creed

I have exactly the same issues where all my 8channels IC amps are silent and I nv able to make it work, the preempt output works perfectly fine though

Would be good if I can get it works as the IC amps is suffice for rear fill and I can save an amp from my list of equipment

At the moment I would think that the built-in amps are faulty on my unit :thumbdown:

Sent from Not My Computer


----------



## taibanl

Hmm. Maybe the 8IC amps have a common power supply component?

Used jl xd800/8?


----------



## vrdublu

Maybe Andy could chime in with his thoughts on what the problem could be?


----------



## alachua

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> All speakers (especially the mids) connected in proper polarity? If one was reversed it would do this.


Verified today that all the speakers are connected in proper polarity. I didn't have a chance to play with reversing the polarity and recalibrating, I will try it when I next have access to a garage.


----------



## taibanl

@ andy wehmeyer 

I am on the verge of swapping out my Center for a better center. When considering coaxial switch can either be crossed passively or actively, I am wondering if you recommend going the active route using 2 Ways Ctr. VP electricity thought that perhaps that would be advantageous because you would have double the number of correction filters available to deal with windshield reflections.


----------



## creed

Hi taibanl,
Am have a coax setup (using Xtant XIS2.4) and feeding two channels for bi-amping (setup as 1 way from MS8), never been happier 

Sent from Not My Computer


----------



## 14642

vrdublu said:


> Maybe Andy could chime in with his thoughts on what the problem could be?



Bad amp. Call or email support at JBL.


----------



## 14642

taibanl said:


> @ andy wehmeyer
> 
> I am on the verge of swapping out my Center for a better center. When considering coaxial switch can either be crossed passively or actively, I am wondering if you recommend going the active route using 2 Ways Ctr. VP electricity thought that perhaps that would be advantageous because you would have double the number of correction filters available to deal with windshield reflections.


IF you have an extra channel available that's just going to be sitting idle if you don't use it, then biamp the center. It's the least important speaker to biamp, though.


----------



## kaigoss69

taibanl said:


> @ andy wehmeyer
> 
> I am on the verge of swapping out my Center for a better center. When considering coaxial switch can either be crossed passively or actively, I am wondering if you recommend going the active route using 2 Ways Ctr. VP electricity thought that perhaps that would be advantageous because you would have double the number of correction filters available to deal with windshield reflections.


Have you considered the possibility that windshield reflections ARE the majority of what you hear from the center when it is pointing straight up and there is no direct line of sight between the tweeter and the listening position? Just saying...something to think about.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## tbomb

You cant eq a reflection. get a dashmat. worked for me


----------



## CDT FAN

creed said:


> Hi taibanl,
> Am have a coax setup (using Xtant XIS2.4) and feeding two channels for bi-amping (setup as 1 way from MS8), never been happier
> 
> Sent from Not My Computer


I bought 2 pairs of xtant XIS 2.5 to use as front and center speakers. I have been wondering how they will sound.


----------



## taibanl

kaigoss69 said:


> Have you considered the possibility that windshield reflections ARE the majority of what you hear from the center when it is pointing straight up and there is no direct line of sight between the tweeter and the listening position? Just saying...something to think about.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yes of course but thats not to say the speaker's FR will be accurately reflected by the windshield. Hence the use of correction filters. 


In anycase im trying to decide between morel integra ovation xo 4 bi-amped or the new hybrid integra 402 bridged off the hd900/5. 

I suppose i could also biamp the 402 if i so chose but its about $100 premium


----------



## 14642

Line of sight doesn't matter except at high frequencies. There is plenty of direct sound from the speaker. IN fact, it's the combination of direct and reflected sound that makes EQ so important for the center. The only difference between a center pointed up and one pointed on axis is what happens at HIGH frequencies--like above 6k if you don't use a tweeter and above 10k if you do. 

Come on, guys. Think about this. Does line of sight matter when your wife or mother is screaming at you to take out the trash when you're on the couch and she's in the kitchen?


----------



## CDT FAN

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Come on, guys. Think about this. Does line of sight matter when your wife or mother is screaming at you to take out the trash when you're on the couch and she's in the kitchen?


I get it. So, what your saying is that we probably won't hear it if it's out of line of sight. :laugh:

Seriously. I have my setup in experiment mode right now. The tweeters are metal domes. I can't stand to have them pointing directly at me because they kill my ears. I tried pointing them toward the glass, but that made it worse. Right now, they are pointed at the carpet floor. They disappear as far as me being able to point them out and all I here is music. I still get plenty of highs. It's funny because I can still localize high frequency instruments in the soundstage, but they don't all sound like they are coming from the tweeters.


----------



## kaigoss69

My point was that if there is no line of sight, then what you hear is pretty much all due to reflections off the windshield. So in my mind you will have less interference due to phase issues caused by late reflections, like you would have with the speakers in the sail panels for example. And therefore my theory is that you may not need more EQ just because the speaker is pointed at the windshield. I think you may need less. But then again, I'm probably full of it trying to make sense of something like this in such a complex environment as an automobile. The acoustics between the kitchen and living room are much simpler of course. Don't you sometimes wish there were noise canceling headphones that will completely block the voices of wifes and girlfriends during football games?


----------



## 14642

Kai, thiat's precisely my point. there's only less direct sound at the very highest frequencies. At lower frequencies the amount of direct sound is the same on axis or off axis. A 4" speaker is like a spotlight above about 6kHz. Below 6kHz it's like a floodlight.


----------



## n_olympios

How much off axis are we talking about here? Obviously this depends on diameter/use of phase plug but there surely must be a basic rule than can be applied to most speakers of the same or equivalent size.


----------



## Darth SQ

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Come on, guys. Think about this. Does line of sight matter when your wife or mother is screaming at you to take out the trash when you're on the couch and she's in the kitchen?


I can't hear anything she says unless she's right there in front of me.
Good thing I'm not married to my speakers. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## seafish

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ...there's only less direct sound at the very highest frequencies. At lower frequencies the amount of direct sound is the same on axis or off axis. A 4" speaker is like a spotlight above about 6kHz. Below 6kHz it's like a floodlight.


Thanks, that is very well explained!!


----------



## taibanl

If my center speaker sounds like wife and/or mother screaming, ill have serious concerns about my stereo.


----------



## T3mpest

T3mpest said:


> Anyone have any answers with my MS-8 woes? Right now it's hooked up to my factory Cadillac system in a 2009 SRX, the bose setup. Tweets in the sail, 5.25 speakers in the doors, 3inch center on the top of the dash. Rear sub as well, I've removed that sub and replaced it with a B&C21sw152-4. I spliced into the stock system before my amp so I have a clean full 20-20k signal. For the sweeps I've been running with the sub amp gain all the way down. If I run it at as a low volume sweep my sub is easily the most quiet speaker, so I know that's not the issue.
> 
> The stock crossover is being utilized so I set it up as a 1 way for my left and right speakers, 1 way center and a subwoofer. Crossovers all 4th order, mids cutting off at 80, center cut off at 200 (it's a small center) and sub comes in at 80hz
> 
> What I'm getting as a curve seems to be VERY weak on the midbass. It seems like the only EQ work the MS-8 is doing is on my midbass and it's slashing it. It also doesn't EQ my sub at all. With logic 7 on, the stage itself is pretty good, imaging goes on the dash, speakers disappear, etc, just crappy tonality. However, if I turn off logic 7, it all goes to ****. Honestly sounds NO better than stock, if I didn't no better I'd say it's not time aligning at all. Center disappears, all locations immediately obvious, I could easily tune it better using standard T/A on a stock deck. The stock center channel seems to be what's holding it all together when logic 7 is on.. If I couldn't utilize logic 7 this thing would have been a total waste of money so far.
> 
> I've tried all different level of sweeps, -45 to -50 or so seems to do the best. I also found that if I tell the MS-8 during setup that I don't have a sub, and set it so that I am using a 2 way+center with the "2 way" being my stock components and sub, the sub is EQ'ed properly. I shouldn't have to do that and it wastes channels for when I finally upgrade properly.
> 
> Hopefully I gave enough detail, here are the issues summarized
> 
> 1.Sub not EQ'ed at all unless I set it up as a 2way, treating my sub like a main
> 2.Weak midbass no matter what level of sweep I choose
> 3.Tweeters seem bright, but that "could" be me
> 4.Staging sucks unless logic 7 is ON, seems like it does NOTHING except cut midbass if I disable that.
> 
> Anyway fairly frustrated, if someone can tell me the key to getting into the bypass for level matching I can try that as another step, but that's all I think I haven't tried a this point.


Andy, any ideas about ^. The most disturbing thing to me is the sub only get's EQ'ed when I set the whole system up as a front and sub up as a 2 way plus rears and a center. That doesn't make any sense to me why it is ignoring a dedicated sub channel EQ. Well that and the overall lack of EQ minus the slashing my midbass. The whole setup sounds very bright and in your face, not in a good way either. I know when I disabled EQ and ran tones, turning it on and off as i listened, nothing seemed to be being EQ'ed except for my midbass which was drastically cut. I find it hard to believe my stock bose has too much midbass and my tweets in the sails are just perfect.


----------



## 14642

^^This sounds like the sweeps are way too loud. If that's the case, it doesn't EQ correctly and can't time align. Turn the MS-8 volume control way down and recalibrate. Then, afterwards, turn MS-8's control up for listening. 

Also, the imaging problem could be caused by one of your front mids connected in reverse polarity.


----------



## T3mpest

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ^^This sounds like the sweeps are way too loud. If that's the case, it doesn't EQ correctly and can't time align. Turn the MS-8 volume control way down and recalibrate. Then, afterwards, turn MS-8's control up for listening.
> 
> Also, the imaging problem could be caused by one of your front mids connected in reverse polarity.


I tried the mids polarity flip, that was my first though too. They are def in phase to begin with. Isn't -40 usually quiet enough? I guess I can try it quieter and report back, car is in the shop right now. Thanks


----------



## 14642

factory head unit or aftermarket head? IF factory head, what outputs are hooked up to MS-8's inputs? If the factory radio includes a bunch of DSP (liek PL2 or something), that has to be turned off.


----------



## mrdeli

Hi All. I am in the uk and have bought an ms-8

I wonder if you could help me with a few questions before I start to install the product. 

My car is Audi q5 with Concert stereo and 10 speakers powered by a 6 channel amp in the boot (all factory standard)

Do I need to have the ms8 power on before the factory amp - if so how do I achieve this as I am not sure the factory amp has a 12v trigger to turn it on / off. 

I understand the speakers are wired as 6 channels as follows. 

1. Front left tweeter and woofer
2. Front right tweeter and woofer
3. Rear left tweeter and woofer
4. Rear right tweeter and woofer
5. Centre front
6. Sub in trunk. 

For inputs should I input front left, right, front center and rear sub?

For outputs I was going to wire all channels from the high outputs except the sub which I was going to wire from the RCA out to a separate amp


I would very much appreciate any help. 

Many thank and happy Christmas

Mark.


----------



## Golden Ear

mrdeli said:


> Hi All. I am in the uk and have bought an ms-8
> 
> I wonder if you could help me with a few questions before I start to install the product.
> 
> My car is Audi q5 with Concert stereo and 10 speakers powered by a 6 channel amp in the boot (all factory standard)
> 
> Do I need to have the ms8 power on before the factory amp - if so how do I achieve this as I am not sure the factory amp has a 12v trigger to turn it on / off.
> 
> I understand the speakers are wired as 6 channels as follows.
> 
> 1. Front left tweeter and woofer
> 2. Front right tweeter and woofer
> 3. Rear left tweeter and woofer
> 4. Rear right tweeter and woofer
> 5. Centre front
> 6. Sub in trunk.
> 
> For inputs should I input front left, right, front center and rear sub?
> 
> For outputs I was going to wire all channels from the high outputs except the sub which I was going to wire from the RCA out to a separate amp
> 
> 
> I would very much appreciate any help.
> 
> Many thank and happy Christmas
> 
> Mark.


Ms8 has a remote in and out so yes you want it to power up first and let it power up your amp. You only need front left & right inputs into the ms8 but make sure they are full range 20hz-20khz.


----------



## 14642

MS-8 won't work with the B&O system.


----------



## mrdeli

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8 won't work with the B&O system.


Yes I've read that it won't work with B&O - thankfully my car is not the B&O system, it's the Audi Sound Pack which comes with a 180w 6 channel amp and 10 speakers. It is not a fibre optic system. 

It does have a seperate channel for the centre and for the sub, so I'm still a bit confused whether I need to add these as inputs. How would I check whether just the left and right are giving a full signal. I would guess that the amp probably outputs the lower spectrum just to the sub???

Thanks mark.


----------



## mrdeli

Just for reference the two upgrades available in the uk are as follows. 

Audio Sound System: 6 channel amplifier, 10 speakers 180 total watts
B & O Sound System: 10 channel amplifier 14 speakers 505 total watts


----------



## 14642

mrdeli said:


> Yes I've read that it won't work with B&O - thankfully my car is not the B&O system, it's the Audi Sound Pack which comes with a 180w 6 channel amp and 10 speakers. It is not a fibre optic system.
> 
> It does have a seperate channel for the centre and for the sub, so I'm still a bit confused whether I need to add these as inputs. How would I check whether just the left and right are giving a full signal. I would guess that the amp probably outputs the lower spectrum just to the sub???
> 
> Thanks mark.


Sub and front only on the inputs. DOn't add the center. Turn off any signal processing in the head unit.


----------



## mrdeli

That's great thanks for that. 

Just two final questions and I'm good to go. 

1. Do i add the centre channel back in on the outputs?
2. If I am unable to stop the factory amp turning on before or at the same time as the ms8, (I don't think it works with a 12v trigger) does this really matter?

Thank you for your help - much appreciated. 

Mark.


----------



## t3sn4f2

mrdeli said:


> That's great thanks for that.
> 
> Just two final questions and I'm good to go.
> 
> 1. Do i add the centre channel back in on the outputs?
> 2. If I am unable to stop the factory amp turning on before or at the same time as the ms8, (I don't think it works with a 12v trigger) does this really matter?
> 
> Thank you for your help - much appreciated.
> 
> Mark.


1. Never. Besides it should be off after you disable the OE multi-channel processing that gives it a signal.


----------



## mrdeli

t3sn4f2 said:


> 1. Never. Besides it should be off after you disable the OE multi-channel processing that gives it a signal.


To be clear what I'm asking is do I wire up the front centre speaker to the ms8 output or does the front centre speaker become redundant with the ms8?

Thanks


----------



## t3sn4f2

mrdeli said:


> To be clear what I'm asking is do I wire up the front centre speaker to the ms8 output or does the front centre speaker become redundant with the ms8?
> 
> Thanks


Oh ok, then yes. You can use the center speaker for the ms-8 center output. Assuming you will have it's logic7 enabled and the speaker is the correct nominal impedance. As well as it conforming to the minimum logic7 center requirements (ie can play at least from ~200Hz on up). Though be warned, the system output will be limited to the channel with the lowest dynamic range potential. So if the OE speaker has a limited output within the passband you choose, the rest of the system will be brought down to_ its _potential.


----------



## mrdeli

Thank you. 

Just my final hurdle to clear - and that is the problem of getting the ms8 to turn on before the Audi amp. Has anyone been able to achieve this? From what I can see the Audi amp does not have a remote wire that switches it on - so not sure how or if this can be gotten around. ;(


----------



## mrdeli

mrdeli said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Just my final hurdle to clear - and that is the problem of getting the ms8 to turn on before the Audi amp. Has anyone been able to achieve this? From what I can see the Audi amp does not have a remote wire that switches it on - so not sure how or if this can be gotten around. ;(



Seems like another problem has raised its head.

My car has reverse parking - I think this plays through the rear speakers, so do I need to incorporate these into the MS8 inputs also?

I have also read about problems with bluetooth echo on hands free phones.


I am now wondering whether the MS8 is actually suitable for modern cars such as my Audi. 

Can anyone point me in the dircetion of anyone who has actually managed to install one in a modern audi?

Many thanks Mark


----------



## THE VIKING

I have had a MS8 for the last month and its been fine but seems that it now has a problem with the remote not talking to the screen. So far I have tried a new battery in the remote and also tried the reset button on the main unit and still not working. The screen is lighting up and does display information. I just cant scroll through the menu as it has frozen. Any suggestions as what to try next ? Thanks


----------



## 14642

mrdeli said:


> Seems like another problem has raised its head.
> 
> My car has reverse parking - I think this plays through the rear speakers, so do I need to incorporate these into the MS8 inputs also?
> 
> I have also read about problems with bluetooth echo on hands free phones.
> 
> 
> I am now wondering whether the MS8 is actually suitable for modern cars such as my Audi.
> 
> Can anyone point me in the dircetion of anyone who has actually managed to install one in a modern audi?
> 
> Many thanks Mark


Yes, you can ad the rears.


----------



## THE VIKING

THE VIKING said:


> I have had a MS8 for the last month and its been fine but seems that it now has a problem with the remote not talking to the screen. So far I have tried a new battery in the remote and also tried the reset button on the main unit and still not working. The screen is lighting up and does display information. I just cant scroll through the menu as it has frozen. Any suggestions as what to try next ? Thanks


Does anyone have any suggestions ? As its been just one day without any music and it's no fun . I have tried a few more resets and swaped the remote battery to yet another new one tried 3 new batteries in total but screen is still frozen.
Thanks Mark


----------



## Arthur71

When I added a orange color filter in between the LCD and backlight LED's I had a similar problem. After puting back together the diaplay it did not respond to the remote anymore! I thought I broke it, but after loosening the skrews on the back a bit it works again. No idea why but I can make it respond or not just by (un)/tightening the skrews a bit. You could try this....


----------



## mrdeli

Ok so here is an update with what I have learnt concerning installing the MS8 into my Audi q5. 

To recap my car does NOT have B&O sound, but does have Audi Sound which comprises 10 speakers including sub and front centre. It's is powered from a 6 channel 180w amp which is located in the boot / trunk. 

This information will also apply to A5 and A4 models from 2008 forward. 

Prior to installation I noted that the instruction manual for the MS8 states that the MS8 must turn on before the factory amplifier. 

The factory amplifier in these cars does not have a good old fashioned remote wire, but is operated by the cars canbus system. In essence this means that the factory amp is turned on when the car is unlocked. 

Having established that there is no easy way to delay this, the only option will be to power the MS8 up after the factory amp. 

I need to try to establish what the problems of doing this may be. 

I understand that powering the MS8 may cause popping sounds. I can live with that as I can also power the ms8 on when the car unlocks. 

Are there others problems though???? Ie could it damage anything?

I would really like Andrew to comment on this, but all thoughts gratefully received. 

Regards mark.


----------



## THE VIKING

Arthur71 said:


> When I added a orange color filter in between the LCD and backlight LED's I had a similar problem. After puting back together the diaplay it did not respond to the remote anymore! I thought I broke it, but after loosening the skrews on the back a bit it works again. No idea why but I can make it respond or not just by (un)/tightening the skrews a bit. You could try this....


Ok worth a try i guess


----------



## THE VIKING

Well Arthur you are a star because like you said I gave each screw about a quarter of a turn out and Bingo it is all good again many thanks for your input.


----------



## t3sn4f2

mrdeli said:


> Ok so here is an update with what I have learnt concerning installing the MS8 into my Audi q5.
> 
> To recap my car does NOT have B&O sound, but does have Audi Sound which comprises 10 speakers including sub and front centre. It's is powered from a 6 channel 180w amp which is located in the boot / trunk.
> 
> This information will also apply to A5 and A4 models from 2008 forward.
> 
> *Prior to installation I noted that the instruction manual for the MS8 states that the MS8 must turn on before the factory amplifier. *
> The factory amplifier in these cars does not have a good old fashioned remote wire, but is operated by the cars canbus system. In essence this means that the factory amp is turned on when the car is unlocked.
> 
> Having established that there is no easy way to delay this, the only option will be to power the MS8 up after the factory amp.
> 
> I need to try to establish what the problems of doing this may be.
> 
> I understand that powering the MS8 may cause popping sounds. I can live with that as I can also power the ms8 on when the car unlocks.
> 
> Are there others problems though???? Ie could it damage anything?
> 
> I would really like Andrew to comment on this, but all thoughts gratefully received.
> 
> Regards mark.


That doesn't sound right. You want the first device in the signal chain to turn on first, pop, and then send the signal to the next device to turn on, pop, and send the signal to the amps to then turn on. So on and so on. The order doesn't even really matter, just that everything turns on and establishes itself before the amps get their turn on signal. 

So in your case your are golden if you can find a way to turn the ms-8 on with an amp signal. I'm sure there is some device out there that you can use the center speaker feed to give you a remote turn on signal. That way it isn't inline with the audio signal feed where it could affect the quality.


----------



## 14642

Just connect the remote in of MS-8 to ACC. There's a good chance you won't have any pops. MS-8 doesn't make any noise when it turns on and off, but the factory amp may. If you do have a pop, then having MS-8 turn on after the factory amp is on may help. I think both PAC and PIE have a little device that turns on a remote lead when it sees 6V on the speaker lead.


----------



## mrdeli

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Just connect the remote in of MS-8 to ACC. There's a good chance you won't have any pops. MS-8 doesn't make any noise when it turns on and off, but the factory amp may. If you do have a pop, then having MS-8 turn on after the factory amp is on may help. I think both PAC and PIE have a little device that turns on a remote lead when it sees 6V on the speaker lead.


Thanks Andrew. I will install on a 12v which also switches on when doors open. 

Hoping to do it this weekend, so will keep updated. 

Regards and thanks mark.


----------



## Hertzaholic

So, today I was installing my MS-8 that I've owned since 2009 in a new build. Everything went smooth till I plugged the RCA cable into Channel 1 Input. Without forcing it, the input broke and almost pushed inside. The center separated and now it's loose.

I'm connecting it to an aftermarket head unit meaning the RCA's need to be on CH1 and CH2, or is it possible to use the other inputs?

What do I do? Warranty is overdue. Here's a picture of what happened.


----------



## 14642

You can use the other ones and run input setup or you can use the Aux inputs.


----------



## OgreDave

Does anyone happen to know if there is a way to disable whatever processing (if any) there is on the Scion FRS 2013/2014 (new) Pioneer HU? 

It has 3 settings that you might see on other Scion's & Toyota: Natural, Hear, Feel. I have it on natural right now, is that good enough?


----------



## swargolet

I'm hoping someone can help me out here. I've had the MS-8 for about 1.5 years now, have read through an outrageous amount of information on it, and put a ton of work into my install to make it work, but am still not very happy.

Here's my current setup.
- Stock blaupunkt headunit ( Pontiac G8 GT )
- Focal KRX2 woofers ( stock door location )
- Morel MT23 tweeters ( Stock dash location firing up at windshield )
- JL c2-350x Center ( Stock dash location firing up and slightly forward )
- Stock rears
- JL 12w6v2 in spare tire well firing up
- JL HD 900/5 running active to fronts and powering sub
- JBL MS8 powers center and rears.
- Front Doors and trunk deadened with second skin Damplifier and Damplifier pro
- Using default crossover settings for everything except woofer/tweeter which I have crossed at 3000 @ -24. I have tried calibrating with volume set at almost every possibility between -30 and -43 

Initially I had very poor midbass, overwhelming bass from sub, and harsh highs. Buying an aftermarket center and changing to morel tweeters helped tame the highs, turning sub gain down after calibration helped the subwoofer, and adding damplifier to doors helped mids, but I still could not get everything blending nicely. I tried setting the gains all to 2V and I tried setting the gains using the chart JL provides with their amp. Neither helped. Finally I level matched everything using REW software on my laptop and the Audyssey mic that came with my home theater receiver. Yes it is not ideal but it helped a lot. REW showed that my tweeters were extremely low compared to everything else which probably meant that the MS8 tried to compensate by turning the level up really high on them causing harsh highs. Since the center is being powered by the MS8 and I couldn't control the gain on that, so I measured the center first and then tried to match all the other speakers to the center. The only thing I couldnt match was the KRX2 woofers which were about 4dB low. The level matching made it sound a LOT better though.

I also spent a whole day a couple months ago verifying the phase on every speaker and the polarity on every wire in my install, in which I did find 1 wire from stock HU -> MS8 being reversed. I also initially hooked up all outputs from stock HU to MS8 so I redid it to only use the front left and right outputs as the manual states. Another issue was that I wasn't using channel 7 or 8 for Sub out on the ms8 so I fixed that as well.

Now onto my current issues:
- I still feel that the highs are too harsh even with the morels which are supposed to be very nice and not harsh at all. Is this caused by using the stock tweeter location or is there something I can do with the MS8 to help out?
- The KRX2 woofers seem to be doing nothing in terms of bass even though they are very capable woofers. Which IMO is causing a lack if lower midbass and causing the bass to sound like it is coming from the trunk. I unhooked the sub and recalibrated everything once just to try it out. With the sub unhooked and woofers crossed at 40hz, it made the woofers really come alive and sounded a lot better but obviously was missing the low lows that the sub provides. Is there anyway I can make my woofers 'come alive' like this with the sub on during calibration?
- Now my biggest issue. I cannot get near the volumes I'd like to even with MS8 at 0db. I've read that Andy suggests turning up the all gains on the amps by the same amount after calibration but since I'm running rears and center off the MS8, I dont see how this is possible without screwing things up. It'd be nice if I could get a nice small mono 50W+ amp for the center but I cant find anything. So without this option currently, is there anything I can do?

Thanks for any help


----------



## kaigoss69

Firing tweeters into the windshield is probably causing the harsh bright sound. Consider relocating them to the top of the door panels or sail panels. 

Lack of midbass is a known issue. Search for "kaigoss mod" (I should have named it something else, but the forum picked the name for me lol). 

Lastly, you cannot expect the ms8 chip amp to properly drive inefficient aftermarket speakers. Yes, an amp for the center would help get the volume levels up. The rears are not that important and can be run by the processor.


----------



## swargolet

kaigoss69 said:


> Firing tweeters into the windshield is probably causing the harsh bright sound. Consider relocating them to the top of the door panels or sail panels.
> 
> Lack of midbass is a known issue. Search for "kaigoss mod" (I should have named it something else, but the forum picked the name for me lol).
> 
> Lastly, you cannot expect the ms8 chip amp to properly drive inefficient aftermarket speakers. Yes, an amp for the center would help get the volume levels up. The rears are not that important and can be run by the processor.


Thanks for the reply. 
- I want to make some sail panel pods in my car, but am worried about tackling it since I've never done it before and dont want to destroy the sail panel.

- Kaigoss mod looks interesting. It is a little more difficult to do with my install due to how I wired everything to length and want to keep it clean looking. Would I get a similar result if I keep the sub channel in the setup but just unhook it during calibration and then hook it back up afterwards and adjusting the gain accordingly? I feel like picking 40-60hz with a very shallow slope and then setting a crossover appropriately on the sub amp should work as well. Or would that screw things up in during calibration?

- Completely understandable about the ms8 amp being inadequate for getting the volumes I want. I'd prefer to buy an amp, I just can't find a low powered mono one that would fit my system well. I have a HD 600/4 sitting around that I was thinking I could maybe use in conjunction with the 900/5 to get the rears and center powered, but I dont have enough channels on the ms8 to do so.

Once it warms up I think I'll try turning up the gains on the 900/5 and the center level in the ms8 to see how that sounds.


----------



## 14642

Before you do the kaigoss mod, try engaging the crossover on the sub amp and set it at about 50-60Hz. THen recalibrate. Sometimes taking out some 50-80 Hz helps.


----------



## stylngle2003

You might want to look at something like the alpine KTP445U amp, it can do 45x4 or 90x2 and takes RCA inputs with defeatable crossovers. Plus it is very small and should be able to tuck just about anywhere. I think Clarion may make a similar amp as well.


----------



## swargolet

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Before you do the kaigoss mod, try engaging the crossover on the sub amp and set it at about 50-60Hz. THen recalibrate. Sometimes taking out some 50-80 Hz helps.


And keep the sub crossover on the ms8 at 80hz @ -24db? I've read somewhere that you said that the ms8 uses 50hz+ for sub EQing. So by taking that out of the equation with the amp crossover, is that similar to just unhooking the sub during calibration? Does the MS8 at this point just assume there is no sub and try to boost the mids to compensate instead? Just trying to get a better understanding of how this works.




stylngle2003 said:


> You might want to look at something like the alpine KTP445U amp, it can do 45x4 or 90x2 and takes RCA inputs with defeatable crossovers. Plus it is very small and should be able to tuck just about anywhere. I think Clarion may make a similar amp as well.


That Alpine KTP445U amp looks pretty cool. I have everything mounted to an amp rack, so may not have room even for that, which is why I was thinking I could just stack the HD600 on top of the HD900, although then I'd be pushing 100W to center/rears and 150 to all 4 fonts, which would be too much for everything. I'll keep it in mind though. Thanks.


----------



## 14642

^^ No, MS-8 uses the level between 50 and 80 Hz to set the level of the sub. If the sub has little output below 50Hz, it'll boost like crazy and cut the midbass. I'm suggesting engaging the amp's low pass filter to flatten the bass a little so MS-8 will set the output levels differently.


----------



## swargolet

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ^^ No, MS-8 uses the level between 50 and 80 Hz to set the level of the sub. If the sub has little output below 50Hz, it'll boost like crazy and cut the midbass. I'm suggesting engaging the amp's low pass filter to flatten the bass a little so MS-8 will set the output levels differently.


Ah got it. I will try that. Sadly it is -15 w/ a windchill at -40, so I'll have to wait awhile before venturing out into that craziness.

If that doesn't produce the results I'm looking for, then would what I suggested in Post #9422 with unhooking the sub during calibration and setting crossovers differently possibly work? Thanks.


----------



## t3sn4f2

swargolet said:


> Ah got it. I will try that. *Sadly it is -15 w/ a windchill at -40, so I'll have to wait awhile before venturing out into that craziness.* If that doesn't produce the results I'm looking for, then would what I suggested in Post #9422 with unhooking the sub during calibration and setting crossovers differently possibly work? Thanks.


Zaph|Audio: Effect of temperature on a woofer 

"Summary:

Not surprisingly, Fs and Vas were the parameters that drastically changed as the temperature changed. At zero degrees, the speaker practically had no resonance and output below 200Hz was non-existent. The top ends of the response curves changed only slightly, with the breakup and damping shifting around a bit. 

The bottom line: Car audio is a difficult proposition unless you live in a place where the climate does not change much. Even with the car's climate controls working to keep the driver warm/cool, car door speakers are close enough to the outside of the car that they are still affected by outside air. 

This loss of climate control is one of the many reasons why I lost interest in car audio. There are so many tradeoffs required to reproduce music in a car that it will never be even remotely close to the high standards of home system. I still love music in a car, but I accept the default system in much the same way a teenager accepts the sound of an MP3 player to fill the void of empty silence."


----------



## Golden Ear

t3sn4f2 said:


> Zaph|Audio: Effect of temperature on a woofer
> 
> "Summary:
> 
> Not surprisingly, Fs and Vas were the parameters that drastically changed as the temperature changed. At zero degrees, the speaker practically had no resonance and output below 200Hz was non-existent. The top ends of the response curves changed only slightly, with the breakup and damping shifting around a bit.
> 
> The bottom line: Car audio is a difficult proposition unless you live in a place where the climate does not change much. Even with the car's climate controls working to keep the driver warm/cool, car door speakers are close enough to the outside of the car that they are still affected by outside air.
> 
> This loss of climate control is one of the many reasons why I lost interest in car audio. There are so many tradeoffs required to reproduce music in a car that it will never be even remotely close to the high standards of home system. I still love music in a car, but I accept the default system in much the same way a teenager accepts the sound of an MP3 player to fill the void of empty silence."


That there is one of the reasons I love living on the Cali coast. 20-30 degree temperature shifts from summer to winter. It's a great place for car audio.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Golden Ear said:


> That there is one of the reasons I love living on the Cali coast. 20-30 degree temperature shifts from summer to winter. It's a great place for car audio.


Yup, same here. I can count in one hand the number of times its gone below 30 degrees here in the past 35 years. And that was only for a matter of hours in the early early morning.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ^^ No, MS-8 uses the level between 50 and 80 Hz to set the level of the sub. If the sub has little output below 50Hz, it'll boost like crazy and cut the midbass. I'm suggesting engaging the amp's low pass filter to flatten the bass a little so MS-8 will set the output levels differently.


Andy, are you suggesting to leave the filter engaged post calibration? 

So what you're suggesting is to lower the sub output in the 50-80Hz range, thereby making the 20-80Hz response flatter, right?


----------



## rynfarrell

My MS-8 died about a month ago. Been so busy at work that I just got around to looking at it.

I thought it was the remote wire so I ran a new one. No luck

But when I was messing with it I knocked it against something and it powered on.

So basically in order for it to turn on I have to bang it a few times. It will then work for awhile and then die again.

Any idea what it could be? Im guessing bad solder?

Do yall know if JBL will repair my unit for $ if it is out of warranty?

Thanks fellas!


----------



## mrdeli

Hello. I am progressing with my install and have got confused with Ohms. 

My Audi Q5 has the following front speakers. 

1 dash tweeter which is wired in parrell with the door woofer. The tweeter is 8 ohms and I presume the woofer is also, so I think I'm right in saying that they are 4 ohms together. 

2. A center channel of 4 ohms. 

I have run a new wire for a new channel to the dash and was intending to replace the dash mounted tweeters with mid range speakers of 4 ohms and then run some 4 ohm tweeters from this. I have now realised that this will have the effect of lowering this channel to 2 ohms. Also by disconnecting the tweeter from the door woofer, this will raise the door woofer to 8 ohms. 

Will the MS8 compensate for this or is it better to have speakers of matching ohms thoughout the system? 

Many thanks. Mark.


----------



## jdsoldger

mrdeli said:


> Hello. I am progressing with my install and have got confused with Ohms.
> 
> My Audi Q5 has the following front speakers.
> 
> 1 dash tweeter which is wired in parrell with the door woofer. The tweeter is 8 ohms and I presume the woofer is also, so I think I'm right in saying that they are 4 ohms together.
> 
> 2. A center channel of 4 ohms.
> 
> I have run a new wire for a new channel to the dash and was intending to replace the dash mounted tweeters with mid range speakers of 4 ohms and then run some 4 ohm tweeters from this. I have now realised that this will have the effect of lowering this channel to 2 ohms. Also by disconnecting the tweeter from the door woofer, this will raise the door woofer to 8 ohms.
> 
> Will the MS8 compensate for this or is it better to have speakers of matching ohms thoughout the system?
> 
> Many thanks. Mark.


It will depend on the crossover points. The tweeter and the woofer should have crossovers to keep them from playing at the same frequencies (more or less). The Ohm, really impedance rating, of a speaker driver is usually given as a nominal number when it in fact can vary with frequency. So an "8 ohm" speaker could actually be anywhere between 6 ohms or so and 200 ohms, depend on what frequency it is being measured at. 










Here is an image stolen from wikipedia to illustrate. This would be a graph from a woofer of some sort, since the resonance peak is at 50hz. Now then, lets say your woofer is playing from 80hz up to 2khz and the tweeter, which will have a graph the same shape but everything shifted up (say with a resonance peak at 1khz instead of 50hz) is playing everything above 2khz. The amp will see a nominal 8 ohm load, since, even though the woofer and tweeter are "in parallel" the crossover splits the signal and you are looking at only the parts of the graphs the drivers are playing.

Did that make any sense?


----------



## mrdeli

Thank you for the reply. 

Are you saying that as long as I use a crossover, my 4 ohm woofer and 4 ohm tweeter wired in parrell will basically still be 4 ohms?

I am using a mid driver (audison voce 3.0). I haven't bought tweeters yet. Are you able to recommend a reasonably priced crossover and tweeters - or at least point me in the right direction as to what I should look out for. 

Thank you. Mark.


----------



## jdsoldger

So I ran into my first problem with the MS-8 over this week. As the temps dip below 20F it takes longer and longer for the MS-8 to start up (longer the colder it is). While it is trying to start up the screen is blank and it just gives me a turn on pop sound every second or two. After a bit, longest was 30 minutes, shortest about 15 seconds, it will suddenly start working. The part that really got me is even turning the car off or turning the head unit off (thus removing the remote on signal) would not cause it to turn off, it would continue to pop every second or two, trying, I assume, to turn on. Any ideas?

It will be a while before I get to do any testing, as it will be in the 40's for the next few days (not that I am going to complain).

Also, did some searching and it seems to happen to a few other people, minus the popping. Then again, I always have three pops when I turn the sound system on and one turning it off, it hasn't annoyed me enough yet to find out why (it was only one before I installed the JBL though).


----------



## jdsoldger

mrdeli said:


> Thank you for the reply.
> 
> Are you saying that as long as I use a crossover, my 4 ohm woofer and 4 ohm tweeter wired in parrell will basically still be 4 ohms?
> 
> I am using a mid driver (audison voce 3.0). I haven't bought tweeters yet. Are you able to recommend a reasonably priced crossover and tweeters - or at least point me in the right direction as to what I should look out for.
> 
> Thank you. Mark.


Might want to start a new thread on this, since it is no longer on topic, I will shoot you a PM though.


----------



## Bicax

Hi everyone,

First of all, thanks to kaigoss for all his help (and patience) during the last few months. If it wasn't for him, I would have given up a long time ago. 

Some months ago I installed a JBL MS8, tried almost every possible configuration/trick, and I feel I've reached a dead end. The sound is extremely bright and in your face, and it actually sounds better with processing defeated. Imaging is fine, though. 

My configuration is as follows:

- BMW E91 (from 2010, with Logic 7)
- mObridge DA2
- Audiocontrol Matrix (my DA2 wasn't outputting enough voltage)
- JBL MS8
- Jehnert flatline kit (underseats + mids + tweets)
- IDMax10 (sub)
- Infinity Kappa 42.9i (center)
- OEM L7 speakers (sides/rears)
- Alpine PDX F4 (ch 1/2 to mids/tweets, ch 3/4 to underseats)
- Kenwood 8405 (ch 1/2 bridged to center, ch 3/4 to sides/rears)
- JBL GTO-1001 EZ (amping sub)

MS8 settings are as follows:

Ch 1/2 = FL/FR Hi
CH 3/4 = FL/FR Lo
Ch 5/6 = SL/SR
Ch 7 = Center
Ch 8 = Sub
Subsonic = 20hz @ 24dB
Front = 80hz @ 24dB
Hi/Lo = 150hz @ 24dB
Center = 150 hz @ 24 dB
Sides = 100hz @ 24dB
Calibration volume = currently -37, but I've tried everything from -35 to -45
Volume after calibration = -6

Everything has been level matched prior to calibration, and I've tried different voltages. Speakers are all in phase. I've also tried reversing phased on the underseats and on the sub, and found that what worked better was sub in phase, underseats with reversed phase. 

I've tried both of Kai's mods, different filters, different setups (subwoofer in the backseat, with and without a center, etc.), increase gains on the underseats/sub after calibration, even decreasing gains on the fronts/mids, and no matter what I do my sound is always worse with processing active. So bad in fact that I can't listen to it for more than half an hour without hurting my ears.

I am adding some RTAs which I have compiled throughout all this testing. One for each speaker individually (pink noise from MS8 hidden menu, didn't do right side speakers), two to compare the processing active/defeat post-calibration, and two more to compare the processing active/defeat post-calibration without the center and the sub (to check if the MS8 was running out of headroom). 

Processing defeat








Processing active: 








Processing defeat (no center, no sub):








Processing active (no center, no sub):








FL Hi:








FL Lo:








FL Lo (with LP engaged for calibration, kaigoss mod/trick):








Center: 








SL: 








Sub (for what it's worth...):









Is it possible that my MS8 is defective, and that it isn't processing the sound correctly?


----------



## mfish

*Anyone have a display cable?*

Bought a used ms-8 from eBay. Seller didn't send the display came and can't find it. JBL doesn't even have eta when they'll be in stock. Does anyone have one they can sell me?


----------



## AAAAAAA

BICAX

Try lowering the gain on your tweets so they sound less loud then the mids, to me this helps. Your xovers seem high for your speakers. I'd try 80 or 90hz instead @24db.


One thing I found out is that when I leave the mic in my car while it's cold out the autotunes don't work well at all, they sound awefull. Not sure how cold it is and if you, like me, leave your mic in the car or not.

I brought mine in, warmed it up and my tune is back like normal.


----------



## tbomb

Bicax, i would look first at your center set up. you have a speaker that is MUCH more efficient than rest of system. According to amp spec your sending 3 times the rated power to it on top of the kappa being a 2ohm speaker. according to kenwood that amp isnt 2ohm stable. first thing i would do is rewire center running if a single stereo channel and level set properly. as is you a sendind almost double the power to your super efficient small coax vs your separates. also, are you using the passives that came jehert set?

And why so much processing? no need for the audiocontrol unit? What exactly is the signal chain from HU to ms to amps to speakers?


----------



## Bicax

Thanks a lot for the quick replies, guys. Sorry if I haven't been able to answer before, I'm overloaded with work this week.

*AAAAAAA*:

- I've tried lowering the gain on the tweets in the past (which also lowers the midrange since they are in the same channels), so they would sound considerably less compared to bass/midbass, but it didn't help much (it just sounds less, but still as bad). 
- Which Xovers seem high to you? The sub is playing from 20 to 80hz, the underseats from 80 to 150, and then the mids take over.
- I leave the mic in the car but I never park outside, it's always relatively hot over here, and I've had this issue since the summer. I'll try to follow your advice and keep the mic at home until I can autotune again, though, thanks!

*tbomb*:

- what you say about the center makes perfect sense, I'll rewire the center and recalibrate. However, keep in mind that I've also already calibrated without the center, and the results were the same (no impact of processing on the RTA above ~600hz, very hars sound, sounds worse with processing ON than OFF). So it can't be center related, can it?
- I'm using the passives that came with the Jehnert set. What I haven't done (yet) is add the extra resistors that came for the tweeters, which they say you should only add if the highs are too present. Seeing that here the issue is mainly with the mids (and the lack of autotune by the MS8), I figured that there was no point in doing that.
- Without the Audiocontrol line driver, my MS8 wasn't autotuning properly (or rather, it was autotuning even worse  ). For example if I tried the "input setup" to get the OK-OK-OK signal, I would always get a "signal low" warning, which reflected that my DA2 wasn't sending enough voltage to the MS8. After adding the Audiocontrol Matrix I finally managed to get the OK-OK-OK (and according to the LED on the line driver that was achieved by adding 1v to what is coming out of the DA2).


----------



## 14642

Move the crossover between the underseat 8" and the doors to something much higher. Try 300-400 Hz. Less than an octave (80-150) isn't a good setting. Then, move the crossover between the subs and the 8" to something lower, like 60Hz. 

Then, try changing the vertical scale on the RTA to something that provides better resolution. Then, instead of using MS-8's pink noise, use a CD with stereo pink noise to make the measurements.


----------



## AAAAAAA

Also you can try finding a signal generator app for your phone.... then run it via bluetooth. Pretty handy way of getting access to test tones


----------



## Bicax

Thanks Andy, I'll try that tomorrow after work.

Regarding the pink noise, I would just like to clarify that I have used a CD (or rather a .wav on a USB key) to take the RTAs before and after processing. The only time I used the pink noise of the hidden menu was for the individual measurements of each speaker. I will try using a pink noise track for those too then.


----------



## Bicax

Will look for a signal generator, cheers.

Also, if I set my hi/lo at 3/400, I assume I also set the center hp at 3/400? And in that case, no point in applying the kaigoss mod during calibration/level matching anymore (since it's supposed to kick in before 300hz)?


----------



## swargolet

jdsoldger said:


> So I ran into my first problem with the MS-8 over this week. As the temps dip below 20F it takes longer and longer for the MS-8 to start up (longer the colder it is). While it is trying to start up the screen is blank and it just gives me a turn on pop sound every second or two. After a bit, longest was 30 minutes, shortest about 15 seconds, it will suddenly start working. The part that really got me is even turning the car off or turning the head unit off (thus removing the remote on signal) would not cause it to turn off, it would continue to pop every second or two, trying, I assume, to turn on. Any ideas?
> 
> It will be a while before I get to do any testing, as it will be in the 40's for the next few days (not that I am going to complain).
> 
> Also, did some searching and it seems to happen to a few other people, minus the popping. Then again, I always have three pops when I turn the sound system on and one turning it off, it hasn't annoyed me enough yet to find out why (it was only one before I installed the JBL though).


I have also had issues with colder temps, mainly just the unit not turning on or taking a long time to turn on. I've found that if I unplug the screen and plug it back in it will turn on.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy, I _finally_ got an MS-8. But I have no car that I want to put it in at the moment. So I figured I'd put it to good use in the mean time and give myself a badly needed home multichannel audio/video setup. Is the MS-8 compatible with a typical 5.1 bookshelf/surround configuration? In a normal size bedroom with the sub being furtherest away from the listening spot?


----------



## Bicax

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Move the crossover between the underseat 8" and the doors to something much higher. Try 300-400 Hz. Less than an octave (80-150) isn't a good setting. Then, move the crossover between the subs and the 8" to something lower, like 60Hz.
> 
> Then, try changing the vertical scale on the RTA to something that provides better resolution. Then, instead of using MS-8's pink noise, use a CD with stereo pink noise to make the measurements.


Hi guys,

I've done the following:

1) kept the headphones at work to make sure cold wasn't the issue
2) re-wired the center channel
3) set the xovers as follows:

subsonic: 20hz
front: 60 hz
hi/lo: 300hz
center: 300hz
sides: 100hz

Here are the results:

Processing ACTIVE









Processing DEFEAT










How does it sound? Well, wiring the center differently did make a change. However, the change in the xovers doesn't allow me to do the kaigoss mod anymore, so midbass is clearly lacking again, and the mids still are too present.

And it still sounds better with processing defeat... 

What on earth am I doing wrong?


----------



## Big T

Question... I took the battery out of my truck for 3 day while I waited on my new in to come in. When I put the new one in and turned the system in the MS8 went to the setup screen. Seems like it lost all its settings. Any idea what would have caused this. I would think it would have a EEPROM and this wouldn't be happening. Also any ideas on getting the settings back without starting from scratch. I have 2 years of tweeting gone.


----------



## Golden Ear

Bicax, maybe I missed it but have you tried manually tuning with the ms8? Using the autotune as a baseline then making changes from there? Since you have an RTA, have you tried making the sound ruler flat to hear how it sounds and then use different house curves?


----------



## Bicax

I've been trying to get the "ideal" MS8 curve, and for this I have tried a lot of different things :

- I've played with the gains (lowering mids/tweets, increasing midbass/sub, and all sorts of combinations;
- I've played with the audio settings (decreasing mids, increasing bass, etc.);
- I've played with the EQ.

I could never successfully get the curve that I wanted/need. I think that the EQing applied by the MS8's autotune is so far off of what I should ideally get that it's impossible to correct it simply with the audio settings (EQ, etc.). Without the autotune, the curve is a lot closer to what it should be (and it sounds better), but then I lose time alignement, etc.

I'm not sure I could make it flat without heavily modifying the gains AND playing with the EQ. The EQ alone doesn't give me enough margin of maneuver. 

Basically, I'm counting on the MS8 to autotune well enough so that 80% of the work is done, and then I won't have any issues correcting the remaining 20%. But right now I feel (and it sounds) like I'm way too far away from that.


----------



## Bicax

Hi guys,

I've tried to get in touch with JBL's technical service (for the billionth time), but they insist on not replying to my e-mails. They don't hesitate to tell the seller that "the user must be doing something wrong", though  I'm honestly running out of patience.

Does anyone have any ideas before I remove the MS8 out of the equation?

Thanks.


----------



## 14642

Bicax said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I've done the following:
> 
> 1) kept the headphones at work to make sure cold wasn't the issue
> 2) re-wired the center channel
> 3) set the xovers as follows:
> 
> subsonic: 20hz
> front: 60 hz
> hi/lo: 300hz
> center: 300hz
> sides: 100hz
> 
> Here are the results:
> 
> Processing ACTIVE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Processing DEFEAT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How does it sound? Well, wiring the center differently did make a change. However, the change in the xovers doesn't allow me to do the kaigoss mod anymore, so midbass is clearly lacking again, and the mids still are too present.
> 
> And it still sounds better with processing defeat...
> 
> What on earth am I doing wrong?


Set the low pass filter on your sub amp to 60 Hz. Then, retune. That will help the midbass problem. MS-8 is undoubtedly setting the level of the subwoofer using the big peak at about 125 Hz. Why it isn't more effective on the mids and highs, I don't know. Try the midbass thing first. THen, we can move on to the next problem.


----------



## 14642

Reverse the polarity of BOTH midbass drivers.


----------



## Bicax

Thanks Andy, I'll:

- Set the LP on the sub amp at 60Hz and retune, take screenshots of RTAs
- Reverse polarity of both midbass drivers, take screenshots of RTAs
- Keep polarity reversed on both midbass drivers, retune and take screenshots of RTAs


----------



## Big T

Andy. Any idea why mine lost all its settings? Had the battery out of the truck 3 or 4 days. Doesn't it use EEPROM?


----------



## 14642

Big T said:


> Andy. Any idea why mine lost all its settings? Had the battery out of the truck 3 or 4 days. Doesn't it use EEPROM?


It isn't supposed to lose them. I've pulled units out of the closet after several months and not had this problem. Hmmm...


----------



## Big T

That's what we thought. Hate to start over and it do it again


----------



## Bicax

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Set the low pass filter on your sub amp to 60 Hz. Then, retune. That will help the midbass problem. MS-8 is undoubtedly setting the level of the subwoofer using the big peak at about 125 Hz. Why it isn't more effective on the mids and highs, I don't know. Try the midbass thing first. THen, we can move on to the next problem.


Hi Andy,

Since I wasn't sure whether or not I had to remove the LP on the sub when RTAing (although I assumed I should), I took a bunch of screenshots and divided them in two groups. Calibration was always done with the LP on at 60Hz. I apologize in advance if I took more screenshots than required, I'll only use links on the second batch not to make this post unreadable. 

*1) LP ON SUB REMOVED AFTER CALIBRATION:*

Processing ACTIVE









Processing DEFEAT









Underseats reversed, processing ACTIVE









Underseats reversed, processing DEFEAT









Underseats reversed, then recalibrated, processing ACTIVE









Underseats reversed, then recalibrated, processing DEFEAT










*2) LP ON SUB ON AFTER CALIBRATION:*

Processing ACTIVE
http://i42.tinypic.com/2pzisjm.png

Processing DEFEAT
http://i40.tinypic.com/qod6gx.png

Underseats reversed, processing ACTIVE
http://i43.tinypic.com/io2oh0.png

Underseats reversed, processing DEFEAT
http://i40.tinypic.com/24lolkl.png

Underseats reversed, then recalibrated, processing ACTIVE
http://i43.tinypic.com/34t6fky.png

Underseats reversed, then recalibrated, processing DEFEAT
http://i44.tinypic.com/2my0p1.png


----------



## 14642

So it looks like using the amp's crossover to remove some of that 100Hz has helped the bass and midbass problem a bunch. Now, what I don't understand is why it doesn't seem to be EQing the mids and highs very well.


----------



## Bicax

Ok, I'll send it to JBL's technical service then.

Right now the sound is boomy, and it's still lacking midbass. If I didn't have to travel 1.200km next weekend I would remove it right away.

Thanks though, I'll keep you posted as soon as I receive a replacement.


----------



## t3sn4f2

t3sn4f2 said:


> Andy, I _finally_ got an MS-8. But I have no car that I want to put it in at the moment. So I figured I'd put it to good use in the mean time and give myself a badly needed home multichannel audio/video setup. Is the MS-8 compatible with a typical 5.1 bookshelf/surround configuration? In a normal size bedroom with the sub being furtherest away from the listening spot?


:shrug:


----------



## aviator79

Anyone in CT that would be willing to swap my MS8 in as I have never been able to get it to send anything out to the subs. It does fine sending a test signal and works during calibration. But even if I make it so you can just so faintly hear it during calibration I get zero to the subs. Basically gave up and just calibrated it with no subs...


----------



## 14642

aviator79 said:


> Anyone in CT that would be willing to swap my MS8 in as I have never been able to get it to send anything out to the subs. It does fine sending a test signal and works during calibration. But even if I make it so you can just so faintly hear it during calibration I get zero to the subs. Basically gave up and just calibrated it with no subs...



Check the low pass filter frequency and the subsonic filter frequency.


----------



## lataupe

HEllo,

I'm new here and I have buy a MS-8 to upgrade the sound of my car (E46 vert 03) after reading this thread, the MS-8 power is very powerfull and easy to use, enough for my need (and my skill  )

My car is equipped with the "hifi" system (les than the HK option) so there is a 3 active way in front and a 2 active way in the rear. No Sub at all 

A 10 channels amplifier (with all the crossovers inside) is on the left side of the car to manage all of the high speakers.


I replace the OEM amplifier with the MS-8 (only for the front), and don't connect the rear. I use the MS-8's internal amplifier to begin but soon I'll use external amplifiers 

I have put the MS-8 in my car in the trunk and make all the connexions, all is ok but the remote control doesn't work !!!! 

I have change the battery, reset the MS-8, reconnect the display, switch off the MS-8 but nothing change !! 


The MS-8 start when the remote in is switch on, the screen display the JBL logo and i have the question about the language to choose but i cannot do anything because of the remote control !!! 
I press all the keys, but nothing happen...


If someone can help me...



How can i verify the remote control ? If i buy a universal remote can i make a try ? (like this : DirecTV RC71 IR RF Universal Remote Control Brand New | eBay)

What i read is that the screen get RF receiver (peharps the screen get a problem)

Can I verify somthing with the USB connection on the MS-8 ?


Someone get the same issue ?


thank you in advance. 

Denis


----------



## Big T

Andy. Any idea why mine lost its settings?? It is EEPROM or does it have a battery I may need to replace. I don't want to spend a lot of time setting it if it's going to happen again but SBN is comming up and I need to get it tuned. BTW congrats on your new venture


----------



## Arthur71

latuape: Try to loosen the screws on the back of the display just one turn. This has helped me and someone else on this forum to get the remote control to work again!
2nd make sure the distance between the remote and the display is short and there are no mobile phones connected to your BT carkit, nearby. This will disrupt the RF connection!


----------



## mrdeli

Hello - 

I am looking for confirmation of MS8 compatability.

If my vehicle has a coaxial speakers (woofer and tweeter) in the doors and mid range speakers on the dashboard (both on seperate wires) - will the MS8 work with these or not?

I think the coaxial in the door and seperate mid in the dash may not be a configerable option - is this correct?

Many thanks Mark


----------



## t3sn4f2

mrdeli said:


> Hello -
> 
> I am looking for confirmation of MS8 compatability.
> 
> If my vehicle has a coaxial speakers (woofer and tweeter) in the doors and mid range speakers on the dashboard (both on seperate wires) - will the MS8 work with these or not?
> 
> I think the coaxial in the door and seperate mid in the dash may not be a configerable option - is this correct?
> 
> Many thanks Mark


Doesn't seem like a good layout for _any_ type of setup. At the very least the mid should be disconnected. And better yet you'd want to move the tweeter up higher and closer to the midrange (sail panels). Then low pass the door speaker where the mid drops off.


----------



## lataupe

Arthur71 said:


> latuape: Try to loosen the screws on the back of the display just one turn. This has helped me and someone else on this forum to get the remote control to work again!
> 2nd make sure the distance between the remote and the display is short and there are no mobile phones connected to your BT carkit, nearby. This will disrupt the RF connection!


Hello !!

Thank you for your answer

In fact my battery and my second battery get not enough power for the remote !!!!!!!!!!!!! 

With the third battery !!!!!! all is OK !!!

The remote control need a "Good" battery to work.

So now, calibrating.....


----------



## Loudy

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Check the low pass filter frequency and the subsonic filter frequency.


I had to turn the gains on my sub amp almost all the way down, calibrate and then turn the sub gain back up afterwards to get the bass right.

However, now the bass turns on and off sporadically. Some times it is on and all is good and then out of nowhere the bass cuts off completely. It was fine for a couple of years but now this. :annoyed:


----------



## altec

a quick question here; what does each of the four sweeps target? I ask because I want to know if frequency response is calculated as a sum of all channels or is each channel optimized individually?


----------



## 14642

Individually. The first set of sweeps for each seat set time alignment. The next three are averaged for frequency response correction. Every channel isn't equalized separately. Every location is. Front right gets a set of filters, for example, whether it's a 1-way, 2-way or 3-way. Same for center, front left, side left side right, rear left, rear right and sub.


----------



## 351cougarman

I'm using my galaxy tab connected to the AUX port of the MS-8 as my HU and this may be a silly question but here it goes.. If I were to plug in a dvd player using AUX to headphone phone jack into the MS would it play sound from the dvd player? I plan to install a backup cam system in a few weeks and would like to be able to play DVD's from the monitor(s) I will be using. 

right now I have the MS-8's display screen unplugged and put away because I'm having issues with the display port on the MS-8. The display screen only works if I tilt the wire going into the port in a certain direction. I found out here on DIYMA that the solder pad is the issue and it's totally my fault, I must of pulled the cable while installing the tab inside my truck. I purchased my ms8 third party so it is not covered under warranty but I found on JBL's website a repair shopin L.A. on sunset no to far from where I stay. Good thing it still works!! just no display screen when I want it


----------



## Bicax

Just a quick update. The warranty service has confirmed that my MS8 was "BER". 

They will send me a replacement unit, just not sure when. 

I asked them to check the new unit before they send it to me, let's hope they do and this one is fully functional.


----------



## kaigoss69

Bicax said:


> Just a quick update. The warranty service has confirmed that my MS8 was "BER".
> 
> They will send me a replacement unit, just not sure when.
> 
> I asked them to check the new unit before they send it to me, let's hope they do and this one is fully functional.


Great, just too bad it cost you so much time and money to finally find out that it was the processor all along.


----------



## taibanl

Bicax said:


> Just a quick update. The warranty service has confirmed that my MS8 was "BER".
> 
> They will send me a replacement unit, just not sure when.
> 
> I asked them to check the new unit before they send it to me, let's hope they do and this one is fully functional.


What is BER?


----------



## Golden Ear

taibanl said:


> What is BER?


I'm wondering the same thing. Lol


----------



## seafish

had to look it up on internetslang.com--it means "beyond economical repair".


----------



## Duckstu

*Hello Andy. * New member here. My apologies for the long-winded questions. Perhaps some of these are answered in the thread,.. but it's 380 pages long at this point.

I have played around in car audio for a couple of decades,.. used to build for some IASCA stuff in the late 1980's. Build my own passive x-overs etc.

Anyway,.. I got an MS-8 delivered today and had some questions.


1. What sort of equalization does it use in it's auto calibration? Does it have for instance 24 filters,.. each with infinitely variable frequency center and Q,... or perhaps (being done in the digital realm) it's like the Audyssey XT-32 which uses a single 521 Tap filter....

Or perhaps it's like the Anti-Mode 8033 I have in my home theater system which uses; "24 fully configurable unconstrained filters, each one able to model an impulse response of a 16000-tap FIR filter." (Just fopr the range of 20 hz to 140 hz)

(I'm not sure what that even means,....but I'm guessing you do).



2. The big fear of auto-correcting systems is that they aren't smart enough to know what to leave alone. Most things can be dealt with using phase correction and equalization, some resistors etc,.. but there's often a null or two in the sound that's a result of a physics issue with the car, and cannot really be corrected. For instance,.. if there is a null of 27 db from 120-130 hz that phase and crossovers can't seem to fix.... you wouldn't want the system to stuff a narrow Q,... 27db gain filter at 125 hz. Better to just leave that one narrow issue alone.

Does this system smart enough to leave that alone? If not,... is there a way to view the resulting correction curve and remove such an attempt?



3. What I would love is a system that showed you the EQ-correction curve to help me make physical corrections to the car,.. and perhaps set the crossovers better. As an example,.. the Pioneer receiver I have in my H/T setup shows you the resulting corrections. I could see a large correction in my right surround speaker, and based on the frequency I could tell it was an issue 12-14' away. which ended up being a tile chimney sitting across from it (to which the other surround speaker was mounted). A bass trap panel on that chimney would solve most, if not all of that issue.

Certainly I try to do my best to get everything the best I can before running an auo-cal system like this,... sub phase, speaker placement etc (and I have a Behringer mic, mixer and TrueRTA to help me),... but knowing what the processor is up to would help me even more.

Regards and thanks in advance,... Stuart.

P.s. I tried sending this to you in a PM,.. but you're a popular guy,..and your inbox is full apparently.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Duckstu said:


> *Hello Andy. * New member here. My apologies for the long-winded questions. Perhaps some of these are answered in the thread,.. but it's 380 pages long at this point.
> 
> I have played around in car audio for a couple of decades,.. used to build for some IASCA stuff in the late 1980's. Build my own passive x-overs etc.
> 
> Anyway,.. I got an MS-8 delivered today and had some questions.
> 
> 
> 1. What sort of equalization does it use in it's auto calibration? Does it have for instance 24 filters,.. each with infinitely variable frequency center and Q,... or perhaps (being done in the digital realm) it's like the Audyssey XT-32 which uses a single 521 Tap filter....
> 
> Or perhaps it's like the Anti-Mode 8033 I have in my home theater system which uses; "24 fully configurable unconstrained filters, each one able to model an impulse response of a 16000-tap FIR filter." (Just fopr the range of 20 hz to 140 hz)
> 
> (I'm not sure what that even means,....but I'm guessing you do).
> 
> 
> 
> 2. The big fear of auto-correcting systems is that they aren't smart enough to know what to leave alone. Most things can be dealt with using phase correction and equalization, some resistors etc,.. but there's often a null or two in the sound that's a result of a physics issue with the car, and cannot really be corrected. For instance,.. if there is a null of 27 db from 120-130 hz that phase and crossovers can't seem to fix.... you wouldn't want the system to stuff a narrow Q,... 27db gain filter at 125 hz. Better to just leave that one narrow issue alone.
> 
> Does this system smart enough to leave that alone? If not,... is there a way to view the resulting correction curve and remove such an attempt?
> 
> 
> 
> 3. What I would love is a system that showed you the EQ-correction curve to help me make physical corrections to the car,.. and perhaps set the crossovers better. As an example,.. the Pioneer receiver I have in my H/T setup shows you the resulting corrections. I could see a large correction in my right surround speaker, and based on the frequency I could tell it was an issue 12-14' away. which ended up being a tile chimney sitting across from it (to which the other surround speaker was mounted). A bass trap panel on that chimney would solve most, if not all of that issue.
> 
> Certainly I try to do my best to get everything the best I can before running an auo-cal system like this,... sub phase, speaker placement etc (and I have a Behringer mic, mixer and TrueRTA to help me),... but knowing what the processor is up to would help me even more.
> 
> Regards and thanks in advance,... Stuart.
> 
> P.s. I tried sending this to you in a PM,.. but you're a popular guy,..and your inbox is full apparently.





t3sn4f2 said:


> Andy from Harman giving more details on the MS-8 and comparing it with the PXE-H650.
> 
> From Audiogroupforum.com
> 
> "There are lots of differences. First, MS-8 is more expensive.
> 
> Some technical differences are:
> 1. MS-8 includes power for speakers.
> 2. MS-8 includes a center channel output and a matrix surround processor (Logic7), which is more about fixing the image for the passengers than about reproducing an audio equivalent to a roller-coaster ride. The Apine doesn't include a center output and doesn't include that image processing.
> 3. The MS-8's crossover is fully configurable. It'll support any system of 8 channels or fewer, including 7.1, 5.1, 3.1, or the standard car-audio 2-channel bi-amped or tri-amped front stage and a sub. anything is possible, since all the channels can be anything, but crossover setup is manual in MS-8. It's automatic in the Alpine, but it's less configurable. The outputs are fixed.
> 4. MS-8 includes an auxiliary input and a remote control and display which allows you to make some adjustments after setup and includs a volume control for those pesky OE systems that include dynamic "bass elimination" (many GM).
> 5. MS-8's subwoofer level control is a shelf that's applied to all the channels through the crossover and the bass management algorithm. It'll preserve the impact in the front of the car AND add bass.
> 6. The automatic equalizers are completely different. The Alpine uses a 512-tap filter, which also equalizes phase and sets time alignment. It also includes some spatial averaging for multiple microphone placements (6). When you equalize with the Alipine, the first microphone placement sets the time alignment and the rest of the placements are used to smooth the frequency response over most of the car's interior. Multitap filters that operate in real time are a relatively new possibility. In years past, multitap filters in real time were only a hope, since there weren't many microprocessors that could process all that information quickly enough. The benefits of usiing a multitap filter are that they can be very precise and they equalize phase as well as magnitude since they operate on the impulse response measurement. For one tiny point in space, they can also eliminate the sound of plenty of reflections, but their ability to do that accurately diminishes in larger listening areas, since the effects of reflections at high frequencies can be very different even a few inches away from the original microphone position. The other important thing to note about multitap filters is that the 512 "bands" are distributed in a linear fashion rather than logarithmically. That means the resolution is fixed across the audio band. 512 taps gives you roughly 40 Hz resolution. That means you get 2 adjustment bands between 20 and 100Hz and 25 bands between 10k and 20k. Multitap filters, by default place more adjustment possibilities in the high frequencies than in the low frequencies because of the linear distribution of those "bands". That's the only drawback. The Alipine allows you to select from several target curves for adjustment after the automatic setup.
> 
> One more note about multitap: They are the shiznit for headphone EQ, because the "listening space" is fixed. With multitap EQ, you can add the reflective properties of a completely different space and transform the listening area to a completely believable representation of a much larger space. With speakers, that isn't possible yet because both of your ears hear both speakers and moving your head helps you determine the location of sounds (just like when your dog cocks his head when he hears a sound he doesn't recognize--we do the same thing, it just doesn't look so ridiculous).
> 
> MS-8's EQ is different. We also use a spatial average, but we use a binaural measurement system and 3 mic positions PER LISTENING POSITION. That gives us 6 measurements per seat for each of the 8 channels plus a time alignment adjustment for each seat. Once the setup is done, you can choose an optimization for any seating position and switch between them. For frequency response EQ, we make standard frequency response measurements, eliminate the phase measurement, average the measurements), calculate the phase response of the average, turn the measurement into an impulse response measurement, apply 8 biquads (filters) to the impulse response according to the target curve and the crossover settings using a very complicated and sneaky algorithm that I can't divulge because we're applying for a patent. The result is a VERY powerful EQ that can be implemented on a relatively inexpensive DSP for each channel and leave plenty of space to use the same algorithm on the eletrical signal of the MS-8's input for flattening of the input signal. The distribution of the bands is logarithmic and makes a completely adjustable target curve easy to implement and accurate. Each speaker location is equalized separately and, because of the spatial average, the acoustic sum of the channels matches the target curve. Once setup is complete, you can fine tune the car using a 31-band drawing tool. You draw the curve you want to hear and the MS-8 implements it and allows you to audition your changes vs. no EQ and vs. the automatic implementation of the predefined target.
> 
> Both pieces of equipment are technological marvels and they both include input channel summing and signal conditioning, crossover and EQ). MS-8 includes more stuff (center channel, Logic7, amplifiers, a display and remote, equalization memory and multiple seat optimization, center channel output and automatic input configuration--MS-8 will figure out what you've connected to the input regardless of polarity), but it should. It's more expensive.
> 
> Which one sounds better? You'll have to be the judge.
> 
> One last note: Both of these products are super-important and may help to revive the industry and get new customers interested in making their cars sound great while preserving their factory user interfaces. They have both been long development processes with plenty of invention and innovation, software development hiccups and decisions about which features to implement. Both products will require some new thinking on the parts of installers and salespeople about how one implements great audio. Simple 2-channel audio isn't dead, but these kinds of advancements make better listening experiences possible using a new set of rules.
> 
> Kudos to Jason ad his team for beating us to market. The other difference is that MS-8 isn't quite finished yet-but it will be.
> __________________
> Andy Wehmeyer
> Product Marketing Manager
> Harman Consumer Group
> Mobile Systems Division"





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Anyway, the EQ in MS-8 isn't a multi-tap filter (like the Audyssey), nor is it a standard parametric EQ or a graphic EQ (like Cleansweep). It's something far more bizarre. It works great, and with 8 biquads per channel can do more work than 512 taps. It doesn't EQ phase separately from frequency magnitude, but in my experience, that isn't necessary so long as you have a center channel and a matrix or some other center signal extraction method or time alignment. MS-8 has both.
> 
> One thing that's important to remember when you're setting crossovers with conventional gear is that what appears to be a gap may, in fact, not be a gap. Here's an example (but without pictures, because I'm lazy today).
> 
> Let's say you cross your subs over at 100Hz and your mids over at 200Hz. Both slopes are 12dB/octave. When the output of the subs is precisely the same level as the output of the mids, the subs are down 3dB at 100Hz and the mids are down 3dB at 200 Hz. At 150Hz, both are down 6dB. Now, adjust the input sensitivity of the sub amp, so it sounds like you have bass. Let's say you boost it by 12dB. Now, the sub is up 12dB at maybe 80Hz and below, up 9dB at 100Hz and at 0dB at 200Hz. Now where's your crossover point?
> 
> 200Hz.
> 
> MS-8 avoids this problem by providing one crossover frequency setting for the sub and the midbass, adjusting the final slopes and frequency automatically using the acoustic EQ and then providing a bass shelf filter as a subwoofer level control which is applied to all the channels through the crossover. That way, the midbass and the subwoofer get the appropriateamount of boost at the right frequencies to add bass to the system while maintaining the proper crossover point so the bass doesn't become boomy and direectional. It works great and I have that process running as a VST plug-in in my car now.
> 
> We're still working on the last two software modules, but there significant progress. We'll have some samples one of these days. Sorry for the delay and continue flaming us all you want.


____


----------



## Duckstu

Thanks t3.

It would be great if links to these and other important answers could be inserted into the first or second post. 

I looked there hoping to find them,.. but no dice. I know Andy is no longer affiliated with this project,.. and is only here because it was his baby. I'd hate to see him get burnt out regarding this.

I got the system setup last night. I was very surprised. I need to add a lot of gain at the amps, as the 2.8V out on the MS-8 is a lot less than the 8v out from my Eclipse CD7000 head unit.

I was also wanting to do an RTA of it with the processing and EQ turned off,.. but with the crossovers active so as to be able to see if I have the crossover set-points in the right spot,... but after reading the above,.. it doesn't appear to be necessary.

I am using the passive x-overs still from my separates,.. and am wondering how to set the crossover point if I split them up and amp them separately. I suppose I could use my RTA and run the mid and then the tweet separately and see where they appear to be crossed over from the factory. QUESTION,.. Would I then just choose a crossover center point between the two? Or would I set the high pass on the tweet AND the low pass on the mid? Sounds like from the sub-mid crossover explanation that I only have to choose a frequency center.

This is exciting.


----------



## Duckstu

Is there somewhere I can find definitions of stuff? I keep reading about Kaigoss method,.. but after 1.5 hours of searching,... I can't find anywhere that this is explained.

I'm having trouble getting enough level. I have turned the gains on the amps to max, and the system volume on the MS-8 is at -2. But that gets me a lot of hiss. I'm used to having the gains on the amps being well below 1/2.

FYI, System is;

Eclipse CD7000 head unit (with the ft rca's going into chans 1 + 2 on the MS-8)

Sound Stream D60 II amp (pre DEI) powering Boston Acoustic !" poly tweeters.

JL Audio 300/1 powering Boston 6.5" in ft doors and 6.5" stockers in the rear doors.

JL Audio 500/1 powering a single Infinity Kappa Perfect 12.4 in a sealed box.
.


----------



## Duckstu

I have 2 different humming noises,.. one when the mic is plugged in,.. and a different one when the screen is plugged in. Not a big deal as I won't be leaving either of them plugged in.

There is also quite a bit of hiss. The system had zero audible hiss before,.. and now it's very noticeable. It continuously drops as the JBL volume goes down from 0 to -14,.. and then stays constant after than. Never going away.

Anyone know how to get rid of hiss? Yesterday I installed a much bigger ground cable thinking that would help. I run the cal after the car has sat with a battery charger on it for a number of hours to make sure I have good voltage (not the 14.5 it would have when running of course,.. but you don't cal vehicles with the engine on).

HELP


----------



## t3sn4f2

Duckstu said:


> I have 2 different humming noises,.. one when the mic is plugged in,.. and a different one when the screen is plugged in. Not a big deal as I won't be leaving either of them plugged in.
> 
> There is also quite a bit of hiss. The system had zero audible hiss before,.. and now it's very noticeable. It continuously drops as the JBL volume goes down from 0 to -14,.. and then stays constant after than. Never going away.
> 
> Anyone know how to get rid of hiss? Yesterday I installed a much bigger ground cable thinking that would help. I run the cal after the car has sat with a battery charger on it for a number of hours to make sure I have good voltage (not the 14.5 it would have when running of course,.. but you don't cal vehicles with the engine on).
> 
> HELP


For the 0db hiss, check the input cables. Make sure you didn't damage the plastic piece that holds the RCAs, it is known to be delicate. That or that the RCA shield is not touching the ms-8 case, though I'm not sure if that would be a problem with the ms-8. 

The constant hiss could be a result of raising your gains to a level where the amps own noise floor becomes audible. Try lowering the gains overall and compensating by setting the high functional head unit volume to a higher point.


----------



## taibanl

t3sn4f2 said:


> For the 0db hiss, check the input cables. Make sure you didn't damage the plastic piece that holds the RCAs, it is known to be delicate. That or that the RCA shield is not touching the ms-8 case, though I'm not sure if that would be a problem with the ms-8.
> 
> The constant hiss could be a result of raising your gains to a level where the amps own noise floor becomes audible. Try lowering the gains overall and compensating by setting the high functional head unit volume to a higher point.


 i have this same hiss/digital noise and have replaced HU. amps are silent. I hate it.


----------



## Duckstu

t3sn4f2 said:


> For the 0db hiss, check the input cables. Make sure you didn't damage the plastic piece that holds the RCAs, it is known to be delicate. That or that the RCA shield is not touching the ms-8 case, though I'm not sure if that would be a problem with the ms-8.
> 
> The constant hiss could be a result of raising your gains to a level where the amps own noise floor becomes audible. Try lowering the gains overall and compensating by setting the high functional head unit volume to a higher point.


The hiss isn't just at 0db,.. it's at all volumes. But it does get quieter as I drop the volume on the MS from 0 to about -14,.. then it stays at that level (perhaps 1/2 of what it was at zero) from there on down.

The system was dead silent before installing the MS-8,.. so I don't think it's the amps or the HU. The HU I'm using has 8v pre-outs,.. which are much stronger than the MS's rated 2.8v ins and outs.

Most amps want 2.5 - 8 volts of input,.. and the MS-8 's line-outs are rated at just 2.8v,... so the gains on most any aftermarket amp will need to be pretty much maxed out to get adequate volume. It would be great if the MS had 6 or 8 volt pre-outs. I have the volume on the MS set to -14 db,.. and with that,.. the volume on my radio is usually at about 65 out of 80.

I've tried pulling the RCA cables in and out of the MS a few times,.. I'll check to see if I've cracked the RCA panel. But the noise is still there even with the cables from the HU unplugged, and it's completely gone with the cables to the amps unplugged. So I'm pretty sure it's not the amps, even though I did have to raise the gains a lot on the amps when I installed the MS-8.

I'll keep working on it. The noise isn't a deal breaker,... this is all installed in an old SUV that I use for work,... so it's not the issue it would be if it was in something like a 7 series BMW.


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## 14642

Interesting. I've never had a hiss problem with any MS-8 I've ever installed. There is one thing that will cause it, though. If your system can't reproduce highs well enough or if the head unit response isn't flat and MS-8 has to boost in the Un-EQ or the acoustic EQ a lot, that will amplify any hiss in the signal.

2.8V is plenty of voltage and that shouldn't be a problem. The gains on your amp probably don't need to be maxed, unless you're used to having them maxed with your 8V head unit.

Here's what I suggest. Make sure that you have assigned the channels correctly and that your passive crossovers are correct if you're still using them. Set the tweeter level control on the passives to whatever is the highest position. That will allow MS-8 to cut rather than boost. Set the treble and bass controls in the head unit to flat. Look in the manual for your amps and set their gains to about the 2V position. When you calibrate, skip input setup since you're using an aftermarket head unit. 

Then, set the subsonic filter to 20Hz, the sub/front to 70Hz 24dB/octave and the sides (that's what your rear speakers are called in MS-8's menu) to 100Hz, 24dB/octave. Turn MS-8's volume control to about -30 and calibrate the output. When that's done, turn MS-8's volume up to about -6 and check again for the hiss.


----------



## Duckstu

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Interesting. I've never had a hiss problem with any MS-8 I've ever installed. There is one thing that will cause it, though. If your system can't reproduce highs well enough or if the head unit response isn't flat and MS-8 has to boost in the Un-EQ or the acoustic EQ a lot, that will amplify any hiss in the signal.


I had been using some of the EQ filters in the head unit previously,.. but had set them to flat when I installed the MS. The Fader, balance etc are all set to center. 

How do I get the gains on the amps set right? Do I turn off the processing and play a pink-noise disk and use an RTA to get them close? What I'm wondering is,.. could the MS be using all of it's output driving the mid amp and almost none to drive the tweeter amp? (I.E. should I tune the gains up on one amp and down on the other so the MS isn't dealing with such a huge differential? The manual doesn't touch on this. If I need to adjust something downstream from the MS,.. or perhaps replace one of the amps with a bigger one,.. how do I know?




Andy Wehmeyer said:


> 2.8V is plenty of voltage and that shouldn't be a problem. The gains on your amp probably don't need to be maxed, unless you're used to having them maxed with your 8V head unit.


The gains are maxed out on the "low input" setting (The mid-woofer amp is a JL 300/4,.. which has a switch for low/high range,... and then a gain screw). I have it set to low,.. and with the screw maxed. The manual states that the low range is 200mv to 2v,.. and the high range is 800mv to 8v,... so it is already set to 2v it seems.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Here's what I suggest. Make sure that you have assigned the channels correctly and that your passive crossovers are correct if you're still using them. Set the tweeter level control on the passives to whatever is the highest position. That will allow MS-8 to cut rather than boost. Set the treble and bass controls in the head unit to flat. Look in the manual for your amps and set their gains to about the 2V position. When you calibrate, skip input setup since you're using an aftermarket head unit.


A couple of days ago I removed the passives,.. and installed a small Soundstream D-60 II amp to drive the tweeters. The MS has full control. (Although I do have a 10.4 mfd Aeon metalized poly-propylene cap on the positive wire to the tweets for safety. This will add an additional 6 db per oct to the crossover signal on the tweets at about 1,900 hz. I did this for safety.) Crossover in the MS from mid/tweet is set at 3,250 hz, 12 db.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Then, set the subsonic filter to 20Hz, the sub/front to 70Hz 24dB/octave and the sides (that's what your rear speakers are called in MS-8's menu) to 100Hz, 24dB/octave. Turn MS-8's volume control to about -30 and calibrate the output. When that's done, turn MS-8's volume up to about -6 and check again for the hiss.


I first set the system up with a crossover point of 80 for the sub/mid,... and now have it at 100 after going over the manual again carefully. I have the rears at 110 now I think.

I had done the cal at -24 the last couple of times. I'll try it at -30 next time.

Can the subsonic filter be disabled entirely?

Thanks for the help.
.


----------



## kaigoss69

Duck, the 2v setting is all the way COUNTERCLOCKWISE. Right now you have it set for 200mV input which is way too high.


----------



## Duckstu

kaigoss69 said:


> Duck, the 2v setting is all the way COUNTERCLOCKWISE. Right now you have it set for 200mV input which is way too high.



OH WOW,.... it would be wouldn't it?

OK,.. well, I'm doing it wrong. I'll try that tonight.

I looked up the old manuals from the Sound Stream and it's range is 250mv to 2.5v,.. so I'll turn it almost all the way down and drop the 3 gains screws on the two JL amps all the way down, and calibrate it again (with the JBL system volume at -30).

I guess I just incorrectly presumed that when I went from 8v outs to 2.8v outs (and the system couldn't break 90 db), that I needed to raise the gains on the amps.

When I get home tonight at 9 ish I'll try re-doing it.


I guess it's that I come from an older school where you dial everything in as close as you can with the gains, resistors, caps and inductors, speaker placement, off-axis tweeter positioning etc, etc etc before you ever touch an EQ. This new way takes some learning on my part. Hopefully I'm not too old to learn new tricks.
.


----------



## Duckstu

Ok,.. did that.

Turned the gains all the way down to 2v and ran the calibtration at -30 db.

The hiss is gone, (YAY).. but with system volume on the MS-8 turned back up to -6,.. and the radio volume near it's max,.. the volume in the cabin is just below normal listening level,... and that's with the engine shut off and parked in a garage. On the highway and jamming some good tunes,.. I'm going to need it 20 db louder at least.

So what now? Should I try turning up the gains 1/2 way back to where they were,... or as high as I can go with no hiss?

It would be great if there was a secret menu that would show you the results of a calibration,... even if it was just the relative levels of the various channels. Like for example,.. if the MS-8 was maxing out channels 5 & 6,.. and the other levels were way down,... I'd know that I needed to raise the gains on the amp connected to 5&6,.. or perhaps install a bigger amp, or more efficient drivers. As it is I'm in the dark about what to do next.


----------



## kaigoss69

Duckstu said:


> Ok,.. did that.
> 
> Turned the gains all the way down to 2v and ran the calibtration at -30 db.
> 
> The hiss is gone, (YAY).. but with system volume on the MS-8 turned back up to -6,.. and the radio volume near it's max,.. the volume in the cabin is just below normal listening level,... and that's with the engine shut off and parked in a garage. On the highway and jamming some good tunes,.. I'm going to need it 20 db louder at least.
> 
> So what now? Should I try turning up the gains 1/2 way back to where they were,... or as high as I can go with no hiss?
> 
> It would be great if there was a secret menu that would show you the results of a calibration,... even if it was just the relative levels of the various channels. Like for example,.. if the MS-8 was maxing out channels 5 & 6,.. and the other levels were way down,... I'd know that I needed to raise the gains on the amp connected to 5&6,.. or perhaps install a bigger amp, or more efficient drivers. As it is I'm in the dark about what to do next.


Not sure what's going on. First thing I would check is the outputs of the Eclipse HU. If you plug them directly into the amp(s) are you getting more output? Then I would run the RCA from the HU into the other input pairs (3&4, 5&6) and also the MS-8 Aux input to make sure it is not a problem with the regular inputs (1&2). May also try switching RCAs.


----------



## Duckstu

kaigoss69 said:


> Not sure what's going on. First thing I would check is the outputs of the Eclipse HU. If you plug them directly into the amp(s) are you getting more output? Then I would run the RCA from the HU into the other input pairs (3&4, 5&6) and also the MS-8 Aux input to make sure it is not a problem with the regular inputs (1&2). May also try switching RCAs.




Yes,.. LOADS more output. I had the gains just a bit counter-clockwise from the midpoint on low with the HU.

I'm not sure how to set gains yet on this. Do I erase all of the calibration and play pink noise? Are the levels between channels adjusted even when the calibration is erased?

Any idea how to shut off the subsonic filter? In my experience they wreck havoc on the low end. Usually one set from 20 hz and down will start dropping from 40 and down. It seems to on this unit,.. and for sure it does if I engage it on the JL Audio 500/1 amp I'm using for the sub.

Anyway,.. I ran the RTA on it and adjusted the graphic EQ. Sounds good now,... but just not loud enough.

Here's pics.


----------



## 14642

Turn all the amp gains up a little bit for more level. Since you have an RTA, it should be an easy thing to do. The subsonic filter doesn't mess up the bass. Just set it to 20Hz and 1st order. I'm a little curious about why you have to cut 800Hz-2k by 10dB.


----------



## Arthur71

When I calibrate @ -25 dB I get also to much output from the mids (center?). When calibrating @ -20 dB is't more in balance. I use ms-8 power for front tweeters, center and sides and use external amp for front woofers and sub. Set amp sensitivity @~ 2 Vrms. I still do get to little Sub/MidLow though and need to compensate with Sub level on ms-8. I have low passed the Sub amp @ 90 Hz/12dB, set Sub filter of ms-8 to 80 Hz/12dB an have even High passed the front woofers @ 80 Hz/12dB on the external amp to give the ms-8 an easier task (I hope). The sound is OK, but good be a bit warmer.


----------



## Duckstu

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Turn all the amp gains up a little bit for more level. Since you have an RTA, it should be an easy thing to do. The subsonic filter doesn't mess up the bass. Just set it to 20Hz and 1st order. I'm a little curious about why you have to cut 800Hz-2k by 10dB.


Thanks again.

I did some more work last night.

When I had the amp gains all turned down to 2v,... and the system volume to -30,.. the test sweeps were barely audible. I had a hard time believing that the calibration would fairly represent the system in action. Usually you want the sweeps to occur at something more like 80 db,.. which is more representative of what the system will sound like in use.

I cleared the calibration and then played a pink noise disk and RTA'd each pair of channels separately (purely for level). The mid's were down 25 db relative to the sub (I'd like them to be down about 12 db),.. and the tweets were down another 15 db from that. (and I'd like those to be above the mids by 1-2 db).

So I needed 10 db more from the mids,.. and 26.5 more from the tweets.

So I cranked up the gains on the mid-range amp half-way,.. and turned them up all the way on the 30w x 2 tweeter amp. Then I re-did the calibration at -25 system volume.

Much better. Still not as loud as it was before the MS-8,.. but plenty for driving.

I did more work on the graphic eq also.

One neat thing I'm realizing,.. is I can use anything for a tweeter now. I used to have a system in a Volvo with huge ribbon tweeters int eh dash, Peerless mids, and HSU Research subs that played flat in the car down to 14 hz,.. and I still have all of that stuff. The tweeters are VERY efficient,.. and will easily play down to 1,500 hz. I may toss those in this evening and re-do the cal.


----------



## swargolet

FINALLY got the car sounding somewhat how I want it! I recently bought a calibrated USB microphone for my home theater and figured I'd run some measurements on the car once it warmed up outside. What I found was not pretty. The sub frequencies were a good 20-25dB higher than everything else and there were two pretty awful dips at 130hz and 310hz that were down almost 10dB. I turned up the gains a bit on the amp for the mids and tweeters and I EQ'd everything as best I could. Finally I got the mids I was looking for! It also brought the bass up front as well and tamed the tweeters a bit. 

The only thing I'm still not happy with is the volume. I was running the measurements at -6dB on the MS8 and the same volume on the head unit that gave me OK OK OK when calibrating. As you can see in the picture below, that gave me a peak of only 55dB and the speakers playing around 40dB. I can turn up the gains on the amp a bit tomorrow to see how much it helps. Is there anything else I could do? I'm worried that my center channel is causing the MS8 to lower the levels on the other speakers since the center is running off the MS8 and is about 4dB down from all the other speakers. Would I just be better off not using a center?


----------



## t3sn4f2

swargolet said:


> FINALLY got the car sounding somewhat how I want it! I recently bought a calibrated USB microphone for my home theater and figured I'd run some measurements on the car once it warmed up outside. What I found was not pretty. The sub frequencies were a good 20-25dB higher than everything else and there were two pretty awful dips at 130hz and 310hz that were down almost 10dB. I turned up the gains a bit on the amp for the mids and tweeters and I EQ'd everything as best I could. Finally I got the mids I was looking for! It also brought the bass up front as well and tamed the tweeters a bit.
> 
> The only thing I'm still not happy with is the volume. I was running the measurements at -6dB on the MS8 and the same volume on the head unit that gave me OK OK OK when calibrating. As you can see in the picture below, that gave me a peak of only 55dB and the speakers playing around 40dB. I can turn up the gains on the amp a bit tomorrow to see how much it helps. Is there anything else I could do? I'm worried that my center channel is causing the MS8 to lower the levels on the other speakers since the center is running off the MS8 and is about 4dB down from all the other speakers. Would I just be better off not using a center?


Calibrate without it enabled and see.


----------



## swargolet

t3sn4f2 said:


> Calibrate without it enabled and see.


I wish it was that easy. I'd have to go back and level match my speakers again since I adjusted the gains after the tune, then auto-eq it all, turn up the gains to where I want and level matching everything once there, then finally EQing it all. I'd end up wiping what I've already done as well. Maybe I'll dive more into it when spring hits, but was hoping someone had suggestions on the volume issues and possible those nulls in the original graph ( green line )


----------



## t3sn4f2

swargolet said:


> I wish it was that easy. I'd have to go back and level match my speakers again since I adjusted the gains after the tune, then auto-eq it all, turn up the gains to where I want and level matching everything once there, then finally EQing it all. I'd end up wiping what I've already done as well. Maybe I'll dive more into it when spring hits, but was hoping someone had suggestions on the volume issues and possible those nulls in the original graph ( green line )


What is your center highpass?


----------



## taibanl

If this adds anything to the noise discussion: I finally broke down and bought another MS eight which is on its way from Amazon. I have the noise when I am in pass-through mode(Test menu) as well as when I have processing defeated. 

This might lead one to conclude that the noise is from another source, i.e. the head unit. Lover, I have replaced that so I am leaning towards a defective MS8. Additionally the noise sounds almost like a digital data transmission


----------



## taibanl

Edit: I haven't yet received/tried a replacement ms8


----------



## swargolet

t3sn4f2 said:


> What is your center highpass?


200hz with a 24db slope


----------



## Duckstu

Remember,.. when you turn the JBL system volume down to the recommended -6 db ,.. you're likely turning the output voltage down from the claimed 2.8v, down to bout 1.4v

So you wouldn't want to set the gains on the amp for 2v,.. but more like 1v

I think when I get home tonight I'll play a pink-noise disk with all the output RCA cables to the amps unplugged and measure the output voltage of each of the channels. Perhaps this is how we can find out the relative levels of the various channels.

Which ever one is the highest will be the one that is limiting overall volume.


Another thing to consider relating to volume is the elimination of resonances. It is very common to have a large peak in the sub. (in my car for example it's about 17 db of gain at 51 hz). So when an eq device removes that spike,.. the sub naturally sounds much quieter. A 17 db spike represents something like a 45 X increase in power (at that one frequency). Uncorrected it sounds boomy and very loud. Removing that spike makes it sound smooth, musical and MUCH quieter. But I've used a single band PEQ before to remove that spike and the single woofer in my car was still able to shake the rear-view mirror blurry. So my current issue definitely isn't that.

It should be easy for my car to get into the 120 db range with over 1,000 watts of system power. As it is,.. I'm still at about 80.

The idea behind a self-calibrating system like this is for it to be VERY easy to implement. But the reality is often just the opposite,.. and it can be quite equipment and time intensive trying to diagnose issues with no feedback from the processor itself.

I'll post back here at 9 ish tonight what my volt meter says.
.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Duckstu said:


> Remember,.. when you turn the JBL system volume down to the recommended -6 db ,.. *you're likely turning the output voltage down from the claimed 2.8v, down to bout 0.75v*So you wouldn't want to set the gains on the amp for 2v,.. but rather 1/2 - 1v
> 
> I think when I get home tonight I'll play a pink-noise disk with all the output RCA cables to the amps unplugged and measure the output voltage of each of the channels. Perhaps this is how we can find out the relative levels of the various channels.
> 
> Which ever one is the highest will be the one that is limiting overall volume.
> 
> 
> Another thing to consider relating to volume is the elimination of resonances. It is very common to have a large peak in the sub. (in my car for example it's about 17 db of gain at 51 hz). So when an eq device removes that spike,.. the sub naturally sounds much quieter. A 17 db spike represents something like a 45 X increase in power (at that one frequency). Uncorrected it sounds boomy and very loud. Removing that spike makes it sound smooth, musical and MUCH quieter. But I've used a single band PEQ before to remove that spike and the single woofer in my car was still able to shake the rear-view mirror blurry. So my current issue definitely isn't that.
> 
> It should be easy for my car to get into the 120 db range with over 1,000 watts of system power. As it is,.. I'm still at about 80.
> 
> The idea behind a self-calibrating system like this is for it to be VERY easy to implement. But the reality is often just the opposite,.. and it can be quite equipment and time intensive trying to diagnose issues with no feedback from the processor itself.
> 
> I'll post back here at 9 ish tonight what my volt meter says.
> .



Half 2.8 actually. Power is half per 3dB, but voltage is half per 6dB.

Decibels to Voltage Gain and Loss convert calculation conversion amplification amplifier electronics - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin


----------



## Duckstu

t3sn4f2 said:


> Half 2.8 actually. Power is half per 3dB, but voltage is half per 6dB.


Ah ha. Thanks. I learned something new already today. I'll go and correct the above.

Stu


----------



## swargolet

Duckstu said:


> Remember,.. when you turn the JBL system volume down to the recommended -6 db ,.. you're likely turning the output voltage down from the claimed 2.8v, down to bout 1.4v
> 
> So you wouldn't want to set the gains on the amp for 2v,.. but more like 1v
> 
> I think when I get home tonight I'll play a pink-noise disk with all the output RCA cables to the amps unplugged and measure the output voltage of each of the channels. Perhaps this is how we can find out the relative levels of the various channels.
> 
> Which ever one is the highest will be the one that is limiting overall volume.
> 
> 
> Another thing to consider relating to volume is the elimination of resonances. It is very common to have a large peak in the sub. (in my car for example it's about 17 db of gain at 51 hz). So when an eq device removes that spike,.. the sub naturally sounds much quieter. A 17 db spike represents something like a 45 X increase in power (at that one frequency). Uncorrected it sounds boomy and very loud. Removing that spike makes it sound smooth, musical and MUCH quieter. But I've used a single band PEQ before to remove that spike and the single woofer in my car was still able to shake the rear-view mirror blurry. So my current issue definitely isn't that.
> 
> It should be easy for my car to get into the 120 db range with over 1,000 watts of system power. As it is,.. I'm still at about 80.
> 
> The idea behind a self-calibrating system like this is for it to be VERY easy to implement. But the reality is often just the opposite,.. and it can be quite equipment and time intensive trying to diagnose issues with no feedback from the processor itself.
> 
> I'll post back here at 9 ish tonight what my volt meter says.
> .


This is sort of why I feel like gain matching to either 1V, 2V , or whatever else isn't the proper approach. Every speaker has different sensitivity, and different frequencies will be naturally boosted or have nulls depending on the environment. So setting all the gains to the same voltage will get you wildly different levels across the board. IMO, this will force the ms8 to try and level match a bunch and then boost and reduce a bunch after that as well. Why not do what you can prior to the MS8 doing its thing. So why does Andy and others often recommend setting the gains all to 2V?


----------



## Duckstu

swargolet said:


> This is sort of why I feel like gain matching to either 1V, 2V , or whatever else isn't the proper approach. Every speaker has different sensitivity, and different frequencies will be naturally boosted or have nulls depending on the environment. So setting all the gains to the same voltage will get you wildly different levels across the board. IMO, this will force the ms8 to try and level match a bunch and then boost and reduce a bunch after that as well. Why not do what you can prior to the MS8 doing its thing. So why does Andy and others often recommend setting the gains all to 2V?


Well,.. I've tried a number of approaches already.

I initially set the gains high,..which got me plenty of level,.. but with a lot of hiss.

I then followed Andy's advice and set them to 2v,.. and it was REALLY quiet.

I then tried clearing the calibration, turning off the processing and playing pink noise. Then setting the gains to where the RTA showed a graph that was closest to the final desired result (sub up 12 db from the mids,.. and tweets up 1.5 db from the mids).

Each has produced a different result,.. none of them good.

The natural presumption is that the problem lies within the rest of my system,.. but with no feedback from the MS-8,.. it's all but impossible to know what the trouble is.

So now I will test the voltages the MS is sending to my amps and see if I can glean some info that way. If (as an example) it shows 2v going to my tweeter amp,... and 0.35v to the other 5 channels,.... I would then know that I need a bigger tweeter amp,.. more efficient tweeters,.. raise the mid-tweeter crossover point or etc.

I'll keep at it. All suggestions are welcomed. I think I've tried everything that's been suggested so far.


----------



## swargolet

Duckstu said:


> Well,.. I've tried a number of approaches already.
> 
> I initially set the gains high,..which got me plenty of level,.. but with a lot of hiss.
> 
> I then followed Andy's advice and set them to 2v,.. and it was REALLY quiet.
> 
> I then tried clearing the calibration, turning off the processing and playing pink noise. Then setting the gains to where the RTA showed a graph that was closest to the final desired result (sub up 12 db from the mids,.. and tweets up 1.5 db from the mids).
> 
> Each has produced a different result,.. none of them good.
> 
> The natural presumption is that the problem lies within the rest of my system,.. but with no feedback from the MS-8,.. it's all but impossible to know what the trouble is.
> 
> So now I will test the voltages the MS is sending to my amps and see if I can glean some info that way. If (as an example) it shows 2v going to my tweeter amp,... and 0.35v to the other 5 channels,.... I would then know that I need a bigger tweeter amp,.. more efficient tweeters,.. raise the mid-tweeter crossover point or etc.
> 
> I'll keep at it. All suggestions are welcomed. I think I've tried everything that's been suggested so far.


What level do you do the calibration at? I'd assume that the MS8 tries to level match everything to a certain level, lets say 80dB. So if you calibrated at -30dB, you'd assume it'd be 10dB quieter than if you calibrated at -40dB and changed it to -30 after the calibration. I usually try to calibrate at a level that is as possible but still seem loud enough for the calibration to work. So I usually do -38, but then still have to go back and turn the gains up.


----------



## Duckstu

swargolet said:


> What level do you do the calibration at? I'd assume that the MS8 tries to level match everything to a certain level, lets say 80dB. So if you calibrated at -30dB, you'd assume it'd be 10dB quieter than if you calibrated at -40dB and changed it to -30 after the calibration. I usually try to calibrate at a level that is as possible but still seem loud enough for the calibration to work. So I usually do -38, but then still have to go back and turn the gains up.



At first I was doing it at about -15 db.

Then Andy said I should try it at -30,... and with the gains at 2v. I tried that and the test sweeps were barely audible.

Then he suggested -25 db,.. which is what I used the last few times. I don't seem to gain correct like you suggest. It doesn't seem to be any louder when doing that,.. and the sound quality is very thin and odd when doing it at such low volumes. I imagine it's that the speakers don't sound the same at 40 db as they do at 100.... so the correction you'd want is a lot different.

Ideally you want the test sweep volume to roughly reflect the volume the system is going to be played at.


Anyway,... I'm home now. I'm going to go out and see what the voltages are.


----------



## quality_sound

Make sure everything is in correct polarity

Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


----------



## Duckstu

quality_sound said:


> Make sure everything is in correct polarity
> 
> Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk



It's turning out to be a dash more complicated than anticipated.

Thanks to -12 db crest factor,.. I won't be able to simply use pink noise. But I can use the TruRTA program on the laptop to generate test tones.

So I'll do one at 60 hz to test the woofer,.. 900 to test the mids and 6,000 or so for the tweeters.

I left my Fluke meter at work, and the Radio Shack one I have here may not read the tweeter frequencies. I do have a Yokogawa meter that I can use,.. if I can figure it out.

I also will need to install a Y cable so the loading is the same.


----------



## Loudy

"It's turning out to be a dash more complicated than anticipated."

I know several members were able to almost "plug and play" but not in my experience and this 9k+ post thread should be evidence that setting this thing up is far from simple.

I finally got mine dialed in and after a year or more of great results, it is now acting up. The sub plays when it wants to and now the right channels come and go as they please as well.


----------



## Duckstu

Loudy said:


> "It's turning out to be a dash more complicated than anticipated."
> 
> I know several members were able to almost "plug and play" but not in my experience and this 9k+ post thread should be evidence that setting this thing up is far from simple.
> 
> I finally got mine dialed in and after a year or more of great results, it is now acting up. The sub plays when it wants to and now the right channels come and go as they please as well.



Try checking the RCA jacks at the unit.

I have the same thing from time to time,.. and if I gently twist the RCA cables and pull them about 1/2 way out,.. they work fine. This is on both sides of the unit,.. with 4-5 different brands of interconnects.

Some have reported cracks in the panel that the RCA jacks are mounted on,.. but that's not the case with mine.


----------



## Loudy

Duckstu said:


> Try checking the RCA jacks at the unit.
> 
> I have the same thing from time to time,.. and if I gently twist the RCA cables and pull them about 1/2 way out,.. they work fine. This is on both sides of the unit,.. with 4-5 different brands of interconnects.
> 
> Some have reported cracks in the panel that the RCA jacks are mounted on,.. but that's not the case with mine.


Thanks for the idea and I will be happy if it works but also pretty annoyed! I would expect those kind of results from a Lepai amp but not a several hundred dollar JBL unit.


----------



## Loudy

Loudy said:


> Thanks for the idea and I will be happy if it works but also pretty annoyed! I would expect those kind of results from a Lepai amp but not a several hundred dollar JBL unit.


Today, everything worked perfectly for about two songs. Then the subwoofer channel stopped working. I tried the RCA plug thing but it had no effect. 

I have been corresponding with Harmon Support and their initial response was, "It still sounds like the MS8’s input is being overdriven" and they asked for all input/output routing which I have provided. The ball is back in their court I guess.

I am extremely frustrated. This has been a (1) vehicle install, permanently mounted and has been fine for well over a year. Then out of nowhere, it begins sporadically cutting in and out. Nothing was touched, no settings changed and without warning, regardless of volume.


----------



## swargolet

Duckstu said:


> It's turning out to be a dash more complicated than anticipated.
> 
> Thanks to -12 db crest factor,.. I won't be able to simply use pink noise. But I can use the TruRTA program on the laptop to generate test tones.
> 
> So I'll do one at 60 hz to test the woofer,.. 900 to test the mids and 6,000 or so for the tweeters.
> 
> I left my Fluke meter at work, and the Radio Shack one I have here may not read the tweeter frequencies. I do have a Yokogawa meter that I can use,.. if I can figure it out.
> 
> I also will need to install a Y cable so the loading is the same.


There is a free piece of software called 'Room EQ Wizard' (REW) which is actually very nice for taking measurements. That is what my graphs on the previous page are from. MANY people, including me, use it for tuning their home theater system although I havent seen much talk about it with car audio. I ended up buying a Dayton umm-6 USB Microphone and had it professionally calibrated. It works great and has helped a ton with tuning both home and car stereos.
For REW though, you can run measurements which will run sweeps in which you specify the lower and upper bounds. Then it generates different types of graphs. You can also run multiple measurements and compare them on the same graph which is nice. When tuning the car, I would run a bunch of measurements and just hide some along the way. But I could always go back to another one if it was slightly better and see any notes I took on it. 

For example, here is one where I was comparing how my two home theater subs worked together: IMAGE


----------



## Ryanu

Hi guys, Im currently on 3 way (Focal K3 165) active front stage + sub (Helix B10w). Setup goes like this:

(1) Midbass on door with proper enclosure
(2) Mid and tweet on A Pillar Off axis
(3) 10 inch sub in sealed enclosured at trunk.
(4) Midbasses and sub powered by SS Van Gogh 500.4
(5) Mid ans tweets are powered by addzest APA4300HX

OK, what I have in mind is, I have 1 Alpine center (dls-100r) laying around and I planned to install it. And I will use the oem rear speaker installed at rear doors and all these will be powered by ms-8 internal amp.

Midrange/tweet will run off the focal passive. Question: What should be the hpf set from ms-8? Shoould I give full range signal or cross [email protected] as per the passive rating for midrange? I think I got the answer, should cross at [email protected] slope

OEM Rear: Question: Normally what should the crossover is ? Never run rear fill before, so doesn't have any idea on this  this should be crossed at 100hz

Thanks in advance guys!

Regards,
Ryan

P/s: answered my own questions after reading through the threads...


----------



## mrdeli

So I have finally fitted my MS8 to my Audi Q5.

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd363/mrdeli1/Q5 audio/Q5BOOT.jpg







Briefly my system consists of:

8" mid bass in each front door (factory Audi q5 B&O items - although my car does not have the B&O option)
Audison Voce 3.0 mid range in each side of dash (factory locations)
Audison AV1.1 tweeters above each mid range speaker at each side of dash 
Factory Audi 2.75" centre B&O speaker
6.5" B&O factory mid bass & factory B&O tweeter in each rear door.
JL 10" sub powered by Rockford Fosgate PBR300X1

My channel set up is as follows:


Front set as two way:

Channel 1: Front left low (door) - crossover set at 80 (8" mid bass )
Channel 2: Front right low (door) - crossover set at 80 (8" mid bass )
Channel 3: Front left Hi - (dashboard) - crossover set at 800 Audison Voce 3.0 mid range & Audison Av1.1 using Audison passive crossover which crosses from mid range to tweeter at 4000.
Channel 4: Front right Hi - (dashboard) - crossover set at 800 Audison Voce 3.0 mid range & Audison Av1.1 using Audison passive crossover which crosses from mid range to tweeter at 4000.
Channel 5: Centre (dashboard0 - crossover set to 350
Channel 6: Rear left low (door) - crossover set at 100 (6.5" mid bass and tweeter which capacitor - all factory) 
Channel 7: Rear right low (door) - crossover set at 100 (6.5" mid bass and tweeter which capacitor - all factory) 
Channel 8: Output via RCA lead to Rockford Fosgate PBR300X1 and then to 10" JL sub. Subsonic level set at 20.

The whole install has taken me several weeks - grabbing a few hours here and there.

Initially I was extremely disappointed by the set up, but having tweaked around a bit to the above, it is starting to sound nicer - but ONLY with processing defeated and logic 7 turned off.

Can someone give me any help with adjustments that may help further.

Also by using the MS8 with processing and logic 7 off - is it basically just now an amplifier - or is it still cleaver than that?

I would really appreciate help as it has taken a fair but of effort to install and I would love to get the full potential out of it.

One thing I have noted is that when the autotune is carried out it seems to make the sub very boomy. In addition to this my sub amp has two RCA inputs - I have just one lead from the MS8 - is this ok - or should I use a splitter.

Many thanks to all.

Mark


----------



## altec

Question on phase relationship and the ms-8:
normally when in electrical phase there is a suck out of frequencies around 80-200 hz in my vehicle. If I flip one of the door midbass wires, the midbass rises a lot. I've read that with the ms-8 it does not make sense doing that. 

what are my options to get the midbass? 

Fronts are two way crossed at 5000hz 
no center
rears coax
sub in trunk


----------



## Arthur71

Major SQ breakthrough!

My setup: 
Tweeters in dash powered by MS8
Coax center in dash powered by MS8
Composet in rear doors powered by MS8
Woofers in front door and Sub powered by 4 CH external amp

After setting filters in MS8 I used the channel ID signals from MS8 to set the gain on front door woofers using an RTA App on iPad. Align SW gain to match output level of SW to front channel. After doing this I ran the calibration sweeps at -20 dB and the result was perfect! The sound is perfectly balanced, staging is up and centered, mid bass and sub bass are restored. Now it sounds like I had hooped it would have from the beginning. I had the level of the front woofer and SW set to ˜2V (was a bit of a guess, no correct scale present), but that was apparently too low.

Aligning the levels before the calibration made the job for the MS8 MUCH easier.

Now all I do is "play" a bit with the SW level if I feel like I want some what more bass, per song and that it! on't need to play with the EQ settings at all.


----------



## The real Subzero

I just bought a MS8... In for more* SQ headaches?


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

NOISE! OH NO! That's right, I have noise and I am pretty sure it is the MS-8 or Factory Radio. This noise is very noticeable and the only way I can mask it is by turning the volume up. It sounds like static from your TV and at comfortable volume levels it is SUPER noticeable. 

SYMPTOMS:
1) Adjusting the MS8 Volume or the amplifier gain DOES increase or decrease the noise, adjusting the headunit volume does not.
2) Unplugging the RCA cables at the amplifier does stop the noise which leads me to believe it is not my amps. 
3) I did a factory reset of the MS-8 and recalibrated, the noise is still there.
4) Pressing mute on the MS-8 removes the noise.
5) Switching to AUX on the MS-8 decreases noise to the point where normal listening volume levels don't have easily identifiable noise in them, but once I turn the volume up the noise becomes more noticeable. At this point, using the AUX and my cell phone is a much better option, but not preferred. Once I switch back to the HU, the noise volume doubles. *lowering amp gains and upping ms8 volume to max, there is almost no hiss in AUX mode but a tonne when I switch to the HU
6) My MS8 and amps are at the same grounding location, bare shiny metal, rear left tower strut of the vehicle. Should be a great grounding point. 
7) When I run calibration, I use -20 on the MS-8 because I have a FACTORY headunit.
8) I run calibration with my amp gains at the lowest setting.
9) Hitting the "Audio Off" on my factory radio does not make the noise go away, the music simply stops. The noise is there regardless of if I am playing a CD, SiriusXM, AUX, or radio.
10) The noise is constant and does not change volume, tone, or pitch.
11) The noise is still there with processing defeated. 
12) Lowering the MS8 volume decreases the noise but I have the raise the HU volume to compensate. To get the MS8 noise gone requires my HU volume to be at clipping point, and even then, it isn't very loud so road noise drowns out my music. 
13) My understanding is that the signal from the factory HU to the factory amp is digital, and thus I cannot pull signal from the factory HU. 

SETUP:
1) Factory Navigation Headunit for a 2009 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. I measured the clipping point to be 40 out of 45 on the volume control. I have the upgraded OEM Rockford Fosgate sound system with amplifier under the driver seat. I get my signal for the MS-8 from the outputs of that factory amplifier.
2) Factory 2-way speakers up front. Tweeters in the A-Pillar and 6-1/2 in the bottom of the doors.
3) RE-Audio REX woofer in the trunk, 125W.
4) 4-Channel LUME amplifier, bi-amping the stock front speakers. Mids on Ch1&2, Tweeters on Ch3&4, X-Overs set to FULL.
5) Mono LUME amplifier, 600W, for the sub.
6) No center, rear, or side speakers installed. 
7) Crossovers: Subsonic=30, Sub/Mid=60, Mid/Hi=4000
8) I am running signal from all channels of the factory amp to all channels of the MS-8. I know some people say you only need to run front left and right to the MS-8 because it sums the signal, but I wanted to give it everything.
9) Connections are currently made with butt connectors... I plan to solder in the future when the system is perfected. 
10) The MS-8 turns on the amps via the built-in remote turn on output. 

I have been scratching my head at this for a while. My personal conclusion is that the MS-8 is screwed up or the signal from my stock headunit is so crappy that the amps and MS-8 are amplifying the noise of said crappy headunit output. I can't switch out the headunit sadly, no money and it integrates with the car. 

What can I do about this? The systems sounds so damn good that it is a shame that the noise ruins the experience. Is this "Hiss" only a result of my amp gains maybe and not the HU? With the gain at the lowest point, it sounds fine but then my radio at max volume produces music at normal speaking levels. 
Should I consider adding a ground to the factory radio or factory amp if it has one?


----------



## aviator79

Try running audio into ms8 thru aux?


----------



## Golden Ear

Can you pull signal from the hu before the factory amp? That is the ideal setup since the factory amp is going to amplify any noise that goes into the ms8. You should also use the ms-8 turn-on output to turn your amps on.


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

aviator79 said:


> Try running audio into ms8 thru aux?


I just hooked my phone up via AUX and played some high quality music. The noise is barely noticeable at normal listening levels, this is a relief. However, if I want to up the volume a bit using the MS8 control, the noise does become more noticeable. 



Golden Ear said:


> Can you pull signal from the hu before the factory amp? That is the ideal setup since the factory amp is going to amplify any noise that goes into the ms8. You should also use the ms-8 turn-on output to turn your amps on.


My understanding is that the factory nav HU has a digital remote turn on and signal to the amp, so I would be unable to tap into the HU itself. However, let me research and be sure because if I can tap into the HU that would be great. And the MS8 turns the amps on via the built-in remote turn on it has.


----------



## 14642

DuffmasterFresh said:


> NOISE! OH NO! That's right, I have noise and I am pretty sure it is the MS-8 or Factory Radio. This noise is very noticeable and the only way I can mask it is by turning the volume up. It sounds like static from your TV and at comfortable volume levels it is SUPER noticeable.
> 
> SYMPTOMS:
> 1) Adjusting the MS8 Volume or the amplifier gain DOES increase or decrease the noise, adjusting the headunit volume does not.
> 2) Unplugging the RCA cables at the amplifier does stop the noise which leads me to believe it is not my amps.
> 3) I did a factory reset of the MS-8 and recalibrated, the noise is still there.
> 4) Pressing mute on the MS-8 removes the noise.
> 5) Switching to AUX on the MS-8 decreases noise to the point where normal listening volume levels don't have easily identifiable noise in them, but once I turn the volume up the noise becomes more noticeable. At this point, using the AUX and my cell phone is a much better option, but not preferred. Once I switch back to the HU, the noise volume doubles. *lowering amp gains and upping ms8 volume to max, there is almost no hiss in AUX mode but a tonne when I switch to the HU
> 6) My MS8 and amps are at the same grounding location, bare shiny metal, rear left tower strut of the vehicle. Should be a great grounding point.
> 7) When I run calibration, I use -20 on the MS-8 because I have a FACTORY headunit.
> 8) I run calibration with my amp gains at the lowest setting.
> 9) Hitting the "Audio Off" on my factory radio does not make the noise go away, the music simply stops. The noise is there regardless of if I am playing a CD, SiriusXM, AUX, or radio.
> 10) The noise is constant and does not change volume, tone, or pitch.
> 11) The noise is still there with processing defeated.
> 12) Lowering the MS8 volume decreases the noise but I have the raise the HU volume to compensate. To get the MS8 noise gone requires my HU volume to be at clipping point, and even then, it isn't very loud so road noise drowns out my music.
> 13) My understanding is that the signal from the factory HU to the factory amp is digital, and thus I cannot pull signal from the factory HU.
> 
> SETUP:
> 1) Factory Navigation Headunit for a 2009 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. I measured the clipping point to be 40 out of 45 on the volume control. I have the upgraded OEM Rockford Fosgate sound system with amplifier under the driver seat. I get my signal for the MS-8 from the outputs of that factory amplifier.
> 2) Factory 2-way speakers up front. Tweeters in the A-Pillar and 6-1/2 in the bottom of the doors.
> 3) RE-Audio REX woofer in the trunk, 125W.
> 4) 4-Channel LUME amplifier, bi-amping the stock front speakers. Mids on Ch1&2, Tweeters on Ch3&4, X-Overs set to FULL.
> 5) Mono LUME amplifier, 600W, for the sub.
> 6) No center, rear, or side speakers installed.
> 7) Crossovers: Subsonic=30, Sub/Mid=60, Mid/Hi=4000
> 8) I am running signal from all channels of the factory amp to all channels of the MS-8. I know some people say you only need to run front left and right to the MS-8 because it sums the signal, but I wanted to give it everything.
> 9) Connections are currently made with butt connectors... I plan to solder in the future when the system is perfected.
> 10) The MS-8 turns on the amps via the built-in remote turn on output.
> 
> I have been scratching my head at this for a while. My personal conclusion is that the MS-8 is screwed up or the signal from my stock headunit is so crappy that the amps and MS-8 are amplifying the noise of said crappy headunit output. I can't switch out the headunit sadly, no money and it integrates with the car.
> 
> What can I do about this? The systems sounds so damn good that it is a shame that the noise ruins the experience. Is this "Hiss" only a result of my amp gains maybe and not the HU? With the gain at the lowest point, it sounds fine but then my radio at max volume produces music at normal speaking levels.
> Should I consider adding a ground to the factory radio or factory amp if it has one?


The noise is undoubtedly caused by MS-8 boosting the high frequencies in the EQ that flattens the factory signal. In many cases, the rear output of the factory amplifier is out of phase with the front or delayed to create some ambience. This delay or out of phase condition reduces the high frequencies in the sum of the front and rear signals. 

DISCONNECT the rear outputs from the input of MS-8 and try again. 

Any condition that causes MS-8 to boost the highs will amplify any high frequency noise that's in the system. If the noise is improved when you turn processing off, then the EQ that's boosting is the OUTPUT EQ. IF it doesn't, then it's probably the input EQ. IF the output EQ is causing the problem, then raise the gain on your tweeter amp and recalibrate.


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The noise is undoubtedly caused by MS-8 boosting the high frequencies in the EQ that flattens the factory signal. In many cases, the rear output of the factory amplifier is out of phase with the front or delayed to create some ambiance. This delay or out of phase condition reduces the high frequencies in the sum of the front and rear signals.
> 
> DISCONNECT the rear outputs from the input of MS-8 and try again.
> 
> Any condition that causes MS-8 to boost the highs will amplify any high frequency noise that's in the system. If the noise is improved when you turn processing off, then the EQ that's boosting is the OUTPUT EQ. IF it doesn't, then it's probably the input EQ. IF the output EQ is causing the problem, then raise the gain on your tweeter amp and recalibrate.


Andy! I appreciate you of all people responding to my post. Thank you very much!!

I went to look at my wiring and it turns out I only have the front stage of the factory amp wired to the MS-8. So, the front L and R Mids and highs are wired to the input of the MS-8, nothing else is. I guess I had originally had the rear wired up but that was before I added amps. I am using Kicker speed wire to run from the factory amp to the MS-8. 

The noise/hiss stays the same with or without processing active. The noise is rather loud when I have the MS-8 at -20 and the radio turned off. Music masks the noise but it is always there. However, switching to AUX reduces the hiss drastically. Because of this, I definitely think it has something to do with the factory HU or the MS-8. 

What else can I do to troubleshoot the noise? I have the factory headunit EQ flat and when I run the signal check, my volume is at 35 out of 45, with 40 being the clipping point of the factory HU. I put the MS-8 at -20 when I run setup, should I change it to something else?


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## david in germany

I think the manual says -25 or lower for the sweeps, Andy has recommended -40 in the past for certain setups. Try somewhere between -40 and -25. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## taibanl

DuffmasterFresh said:


> I went to look at my wiring and it turns out I only have the front stage of the factory amp wired to the MS-8. So, the front L and R Mids and highs are wired to the input of the MS-8, nothing else is. I guess I had originally had the rear wired up but that was before I added amps. I am using Kicker speed wire to run from the factory amp to the MS-8.


can you confirm that the HIGH FREQUENCIES are on lower numbered MS-8 input channels, (i.e. 1+2), and the mids are on the next pair (3+4)?

MS-8 is designed to look for signals in range of HF-LF so its possible if you had the mids first, it could be boosting the highs.


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## DuffmasterFresh

The factory nav unit has a built in EQ that digitally communicates with the factory amp. I believe the Nav is programmed to recognize the stock Rockford Fosgate system via CANBUS, just like the rest of the car. So, therefore the Nav should power the speakers if I remove the factory amp. I want to do that as a last resort. 



david in germany said:


> I think the manual says -25 or lower for the sweeps, Andy has recommended -40 in the past for certain setups. Try somewhere between -40 and -25.


The manual says, "If an external, higher-powered amplifier is driving the front speakers, use the remote’s Volume Down button to set the volume to a level lower than –20dB." I have my gains at their lowest and the MS8 at -20 when I calibrate so it is about average speaking volume. I'll try to calibrate at -30 and -40 to see how it works. Thanks for the input!!



taibanl said:


> can you confirm that the HIGH FREQUENCIES are on lower numbered MS-8 input channels, (i.e. 1+2), and the mids are on the next pair (3+4)?
> 
> MS-8 is designed to look for signals in range of HF-LF so its possible if you had the mids first, it could be boosting the highs.


Channel 1&2 on the MS-8 power the Mids while Channel 3&4 power the Highs, but that is the OUTPUT side. The input is specific? I will have to double check the input, but I think I wired the factory amp to the MS8 Input in the following way:

Ch1: Left Mid
Ch2: Left High
Ch3: Right Mid
Ch4: Right High
(Let me double check and I'll repost later, I would have to remove my seat to verify which isn't my favorite thing to do )

The manual says, "You can connect the factory front speaker outputs to any MS-8 Hi Level inputs"

**I found this posted by Andy on Page 148. "Remember, MS-8 is an EQ. If you have your tweeter amp gains set lower than everything else, MS-8 may attempt to boost the high frequencies to compensate. All systems generate some hiss somewhere and that hiss will be amplified by the EQ if there has to be a bunch of boost. Turning the amp gains for the tweeters UP and recalibrating will result in less high frequency boost and less amplification of the hiss."

I calibrate with gains at the lowest setting, full counterclockwise.


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## taibanl

DuffmasterFresh said:


> The manual says, "If an external, higher-powered amplifier is driving the front speakers, use the remote’s Volume Down button to set the volume to a level lower than –20dB." I have my gains at their lowest and the MS8 at -20 when I calibrate so it is about average speaking volume. If I calibrate at -30 for example, how does that effect my system? After calibration, would I turn it back up to -20 or leave it at -30 at all times?
> 
> 
> 
> Channel 1&2 on the MS-8 power the Mids while Channel 3&4 power the Highs, but that is the OUTPUT side. The input is specific? I will have to double check the input, but I think I wired the factory amp to the MS8 Input in the following way:
> 
> Ch1: Left Mid
> Ch2: Left High
> Ch3: Right Mid
> Ch4: Right High
> (Let me double check and I'll repost later)
> 
> The manual says, "You can connect the factory front speaker outputs to any MS-8 Hi Level inputs"


*Input side IS specific. Connect L/R high, THEN L/R mid. Use caution because 1-2-3-4 are all arranged horizontally as opposed to vertically in pairs.* This isn't documented in the manual but has been discussed here in the thread. Incidentally, though I knew of this, I am wondering if I made a similar mistake as it would make a lot of sense to my own problems.


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## Ryanu

DuffmasterFresh said:


> The manual says, "If an external, higher-powered amplifier is driving the front speakers, use the remote’s Volume Down button to set the volume to a level lower than –20dB." I have my gains at their lowest and the MS8 at -20 when I calibrate so it is about average speaking volume. I'll try to calibrate at -30 and -40 to see how it works. Thanks for the input!!
> 
> 
> 
> Channel 1&2 on the MS-8 power the Mids while Channel 3&4 power the Highs, but that is the OUTPUT side. The input is specific? I will have to double check the input, but I think I wired the factory amp to the MS8 Input in the following way:
> 
> Ch1: Left Mid
> Ch2: Left High
> Ch3: Right Mid
> Ch4: Right High
> (Let me double check and I'll repost later, I would have to remove my seat to verify which isn't my favorite thing to do )
> 
> The manual says, "You can connect the factory front speaker outputs to any MS-8 Hi Level inputs"
> 
> **I found this posted by Andy on Page 148. "Remember, MS-8 is an EQ. If you have your tweeter amp gains set lower than everything else, MS-8 may attempt to boost the high frequencies to compensate. All systems generate some hiss somewhere and that hiss will be amplified by the EQ if there has to be a bunch of boost. Turning the amp gains for the tweeters UP and recalibrating will result in less high frequency boost and less amplification of the hiss."
> 
> I calibrate with gains at the lowest setting, full counterclockwisei. Seeing as this is a bi-amp setup and my tweeters have their own channels and gain, should I maybe turn up the gain a hair on the tweeters when calibrating? I'm digging through this thread to try and find possible solutions hah.


I am no where near an expert in ms8 but I had playing around with the unit for about 1+ year now. Just would like to share few points.

(1) You shouldn't be calibrating ur ms8 at minimum gain of ur amplifier. As mentioned before in this thread..it should be at 2v of your amp gain. Also bear in mind, different speaker has different sensitivity. 

(2) not too sure how factory amp is connected to ms8 as I never done this before. But just ensure that if u use both external amp and ms8 internal amp... the channels are not re-use. I.e if u use channel 1 & 2 hi level output, u can't use low level output on ch 1 & 2 anymore and vice versa.

Just my 2 cents. 

Cheers,
Ryan

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## Ryanu

Yeah and 1 more thing.. try calibrating it at -35 to -40... key thing is ..it shouldnt be too loud. Peace out ✌

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## DuffmasterFresh

Ryanu said:


> I am no where near an expert in ms8 but I had playing around with the unit for about 1+ year now. Just would like to share few points.
> 
> (1) You shouldn't be calibrating ur ms8 at minimum gain of ur amplifier. As mentioned before in this thread..it should be at 2v of your amp gain. Also bear in mind, different speaker has different sensitivity.
> 
> (2) not too sure how factory amp is connected to ms8 as I never done this before. But just ensure that if u use both external amp and ms8 internal amp... the channels are not re-use. I.e if u use channel 1 & 2 hi level output, u can't use low level output on ch 1 & 2 anymore and vice versa.


1) I have a LUME amplifier, which I think is a knock off JL Audio amp, so I can't find any specs for it online. I have no idea where the 2V setting is on the gain pot, the amp just says "MIN" & "MAX" on the gain. I have it set to MIN and I assume 2V is only a hair above that.

2) Thankfully I have amplifiers powering everything through RCA cable, so I'm not using low level and high level. Thanks for that tip, I'll stay away from that in the future when I go to hook up my rear speakers. 



Ryanu said:


> Yeah and 1 more thing.. try calibrating it at -35 to -40... key thing is ..it shouldnt be too loud. Peace out ✌


I just went out to my car and ran calibration at -30 and again at -40. The problem when I do this is that while I can't hear the hiss at those MS8 volume levels, my music is at speaking volume when my headunit is at max unclipped volume. So, I adjusted my gains up a bit to compensate for such a low volume and the hiss became audible again. Either way, whenever I run calibration the volume level is at speaking volume, it isn't very loud and the sub is barely heard and not felt.


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## Ryanu

DuffmasterFresh said:


> 1) I have a LUME amplifier, which I think is a knock off JL Audio amp, so I can't find any specs for it online. I have no idea where the 2V setting is on the gain pot, the amp just says "MIN" & "MAX" on the gain. I have it set to MIN and I assume 2V is only a hair above that.
> 
> 2) Thankfully I have amplifiers powering everything through RCA cable, so I'm not using low level and high level. Thanks for that tip, I'll stay away from that in the future when I go to hook up my rear speakers.
> 
> 
> 
> I just went out to my car and ran calibration at -30 and again at -40. The problem when I do this is that while I can't hear the hiss at those MS8 volume levels, my music is at speaking volume when my headunit is at max unclipped volume. So, I adjusted my gains up a bit to compensate for such a low volume and the hiss became audible again. Either way, whenever I run calibration the volume level is at speaking volume, it isn't very loud and the sub is barely heard and not felt.


if I understand it correctly... amp gain has to be somewhere around 2volts... if ur amp gain sets at minimum.. ms8 will try to boost whichever freq that has gap and that may cause the hiss.. correct me if I wrong. The key for ms8 to work its wonder is to level match all drivers prior to calibration. Good luck!

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## DuffmasterFresh

Ryanu said:


> if I understand it correctly... amp gain has to be somewhere around 2volts... if ur amp gain sets at minimum.. ms8 will try to boost whichever freq that has gap and that may cause the hiss.. correct me if I wrong. The key for ms8 to work its wonder is to level match all drivers prior to calibration. Good luck!


Would I level match drivers by making sure they have the same SPL output? So the midbass and tweeter should both produce the same SPL while playing the white noise before calibration?

"If your tweeters are too inefficient to match your mids, MS-8 will boost the tweeters and cut the mids. The high frequency boost may add system hiss--just like turning up the 10k and the amp gains in a system with a manual EQ."
Andy said this in a previous post. My mids and highs are amped, so I am not sure if my tweeters are "inefficient".

I have been reading more and more posts from Andy on this thread. They all seem to narrow it down to the UN-EQ.


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## kaigoss69

^^^ Sounds like you may be making the mistake of not increasing the ms-8 volume after calibration. You do want the sweeps at conversation level. After calibration, do NOT touch the amp gains, simply raise ms-8 volume to -6 db.


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## DuffmasterFresh

kaigoss69 said:


> ^^^ Sounds like you may be making the mistake of not increasing the ms-8 volume after calibration. You do want the sweeps at conversation level. After calibration, do NOT touch the amp gains, simply raise ms-8 volume to -6 db.


I have tried that as well. I left the amp gains at minimum and raised the MS-8 volume to -6 after I ran calibration at -20, -30, and -40. The hiss/noise became very intense each time. Not even music could mask it except at the highest unclipped volume on my headunit.


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## david in germany

DuffmasterFresh said:


> I have tried that as well. I left the amp gains at minimum and raised the MS-8 volume to -6 after I ran calibration at -20, -30, and -40. The hiss/noise became very intense each time. Not even music could mask it except at the highest unclipped volume on my headunit.


I raise my ms-8 volume to -2 or -1 after calibration. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## DuffmasterFresh

I went ahead and re-wired the MS-8 High-Level Input in the recommended setup. My factory amplifier speaker outputs connect to the high-level inputs of the MS8, which should mean it's noise free. 

Ch 1: FL Hi
Ch 2: FR Hi
Ch 3: FL Mid
Ch 4: FR Mid

I factory reset the MS-8 and performed the setup again. I had the amp gains at their lowest point, I set the MS-8 volume to -35, the car engine was off, and the sub could be heard (barely), but not felt. The end result still has hiss/noise at normal listening levels. I'm essentially forced to listen to my music louder if I don't want to hear the hiss... which means I couldn't have a conversation with someone else in the car without raising my voice a lot. The factory sound system was dead quiet at all volume levels, I miss that. 

I even performed another calibration but I turned the gain up on the tweeters so they would be a little louder in hopes that the MS-8 would notice and tune them down to reduce noise. This had no effect. 

When I turn the MS8 to AUX mode, the noise is cut in half or eliminated depending on the volume level I have selected for the MS-8. I have no idea what else to try. The only thing I haven't mentioned (forgot about it) is that the left tweeter is not a factory tweeter, it is an NVX replacement tweeter, same size as the factory one. The rest of the speakers are factory. I know there will be a difference in sensitivity with the new tweeter but both tweeters hiss the same amount.


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## vwdave

Im trying to find where to get the firmware update. On their webpage (which is horrible BTW) in support there are software/firmware updates but nothing for the MS-8. In trhe MS-8 page, there is a downloads section, again, no software/firmware update in there.

where is everyone getting it from? I have been on hold with their customer support for over an hour...i need to get this software updated ASAP.


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## Ryanu

This Question may be asked before, but I tried searching for it in this crazy threads but to no avail. Well, enough bitching back to the question 

I plan to install ms-8 to my stock OEM 2009 Toyota Corrola which consists of tweeter, midbass on front door and rear 6x9 on rear deck.

This is what I have in mind and need to check whether this is workable.

Input:
CH1: FL High
CH2: FR High
CH3: FL Low
CH4: FR Low
CH5: FL Rear
CH6: FR Rear
*All taken from HU Speaker Level Output from OEM HU*

Output:
CH1: FL High
CH2: FR High
CH3: FL Low
CH4: FR Low
CH5: FL Rear
CH6: FR Rear
CH7: Center (Powered off MS-8 Internal Amp) - will be using Alpine DLB-200R as center.
CH8: Subwoofer (Powered by external amp)

Thanks in advance guys.

Regards,
Ryan


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## Duckstu

Ryanu said:


> This Question may be asked before, but I tried searching for it in this crazy threads but to no avail. Well, enough bitching back to the question
> 
> I plan to install ms-8 to my stock OEM 2009 Toyota Corrola which consists of tweeter, midbass on front door and rear 6x9. All OEM speakers are to be powered off ms-8.
> 
> (1) If I were to add aftermarket center speaker, how can i wire it? Providing that the OEM HU doesn't have center High Level Output, can i just wire hi-level output (ch 7) to power the center speaker by ms8 internal amp?
> 
> (2) If I were to install subwoofer + External amp, can I just tap the RCA output (CH 8) to Sub amp?
> 
> Thanks in advance guys.
> 
> Regards,
> Ryan



You can wire all of the stock radio's outputs into the MS-8,.. or just the one left and one right. The MS-8 is going to break down the signal and rebuild all of the channels anyway,.. so no need for your speaker array to be anything like stock. If you tell it you have a center,.. it will create a center channel internally.

The only advantage of connecting all 4 of the stock radio's wires to the MS-8 is to maintain fader control at the head unit. If you're like most and don't use fader after it's initially set,.. you're better off just connecting a right and left as inputs to the MS-8. The MS-8 has a fader control.


At your option,.. you can use EITHER the RCA or the powered speaker outs for any of the 8 channels (but not both at the same time on any particular channel),.. so yes,.. you can use 6 channels of the speaker-level outs to feed your stock speakers, a seventh for your new center channel,.. and the RCA of channel 8 to feed a sub amp. So you'll have 20w x 7,... plus whatever the sub amp provides. Remember to pick a very efficient center channel speaker. Most factory speakers require very little power to run,.. but if you pick a high-end aftermarket driver for your center,.. it my not get loud enough as compared to the factory speakers. Of course you could install an amp to run that one channel,...

In the initial setup,.. the MS-8 will ask you if you have a center and a sub, and also what general crossover frequency and crossover slope you think you want. It will then figure out the rest and create a center and sub outputs, and cut the bass from the doors and 6x9's.


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## Ryanu

Duckstu said:


> You can wire all of the stock radio's outputs into the MS-8,.. or just the one left and one right. The MS-8 is going to break down the signal and rebuild all of the channels anyway,.. so no need for your speaker array to be anything like stock. If you tell it you have a center,.. it will create a center channel internally.
> 
> The only advantage of connecting all 4 of the stock radio's wires to the MS-8 is to maintain fader control at the head unit. If you're like most and don't use fader after it's initially set,.. you're better off just connecting a right and left as inputs to the MS-8. The MS-8 has a fader control.
> 
> 
> At your option,.. you can use EITHER the RCA or the powered speaker outs for any of the 8 channels (but not both at the same time on any particular channel),.. so yes,.. you can use 6 channels of the speaker-level outs to feed your stock speakers, a seventh for your new center channel,.. and the RCA of channel 8 to feed a sub amp. So you'll have 20w x 7,... plus whatever the sub amp provides. Remember to pick a very efficient center channel speaker. Most factory speakers require very little power to run,.. but if you pick a high-end aftermarket driver for your center,.. it my not get loud enough as compared to the factory speakers. Of course you could install an amp to run that one channel,...
> 
> In the initial setup,.. the MS-8 will ask you if you have a center and a sub, and also what general crossover frequency and crossover slope you think you want. It will then figure out the rest and create a center and sub outputs, and cut the bass from the doors and 6x9's.


Thanks Duckstu for the explanation. Now I begin to understand, the input does not necessarily need to match the output array. 

So, basically I can do this

Input (Speaker elevl output from HU):
CH:1 FL Hi
CH2: FR HI
CH3: FL Lo
CH4: FR Lo

Output:
CH1: FL Hi
CH2: FR Hi
CH3: FL Lo
CH4: FR Lo
CH5: FL Rear
CH6: FR Rear
CH7: Center 
CH8: Subwoofer (Powered by external amp)

CH1-7 : Powered by MS-8 internal amp.
Ch8 : Power by external amp.


Thanks!


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## taibanl

Looks good!


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## vwdave

vwdave said:


> Im trying to find where to get the firmware update. On their webpage (which is horrible BTW) in support there are software/firmware updates but nothing for the MS-8. In trhe MS-8 page, there is a downloads section, again, no software/firmware update in there.
> 
> where is everyone getting it from? I have been on hold with their customer support for over an hour...i need to get this software updated ASAP.


Can someone please help me with this? JBL won't get back to me.


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## kaigoss69

I remember seeing it on a European JBL website. Just so you know, afaik the ONLY difference with the is FW is the Disabling of processing when you press mute in order to bypass the processing delay which causes BT echo issues.


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## vwdave

kaigoss69 said:


> I remember seeing it on a European JBL website. Just so you know, afaik the ONLY difference with the is FW is the Disabling of processing when you press mute in order to bypass the processing delay which causes BT echo issues.


That's ExACTLY why I need it. Ok, let me try to find that...any way you could look for it again?


----------



## rcurley55

vwdave said:


> That's ExACTLY why I need it. Ok, let me try to find that...any way you could look for it again?


Found it - need to go to JBL's EU website to get it. Not sure why...

Just keep in mind that reverting from this mod is damn near impossible as the original firmware is even harder to come by:

harman - old - MS-8


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## vwdave

I don't know how to thank you enough!!! It worked and I got it done.

My factory radio has a mute so I'm covered there, but I drive for a living (rather I drive a lot for work) so it's imperitive that my Bluetooth work properly. This update isn't perfect but it's a step in the right direction.

Oh and can I add that their " customer support" sucks. I waited on the phone for a long ass time only to have to hang up because I had other things to do. So on their website
you can request someone calls you back in "24 hours". I've tried this option 3 or 4 times. Never got a call from them.


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## csperl1

Ok so I bought used MS-8 (mint condition externally), installed it yesterday, unit powered up, turns on my amps and passes music but display does not come up at all (no light/text).

What I have done so far:

Checked connections, plugged and unplugged making sure they were fully inserted. 

Shut off power completely (both ignition and removed battery supply).

Reset the display and unit by pushing buttons while the unit was powered on.

Checked the continuity of the wire with a multi-meter. 

I know that they had an issue of the display plug on the MS 8 getting pulled off the solder pads but would like to know (aside from getting another cable and display) what else you guys would recommend before I either pull it apart and check the solder connections/hard wire it or send it back to JBL?

Can I check the display plug side with my multimeter and tell anything from the voltages?

Thanks in advance.


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## thebetaproject

Double check the cable is pushed in all the way, especially at the MS-8 end. It can click into place, so you assume its's in but it's not fully in and requires another 'click'.


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## taibanl

thebetaproject said:


> CAREFULLY] Double check the cable is pushed in all the way, especially at the MS-8 end. It can click into place, so you assume its's in but it's not fully in and requires another 'click'.


Fixed


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## csperl1

Thanks for the replies. 
I have and it is definitely all the way in. Does anyone know if I can check the voltage at the display end? I already checked cable continuity.


----------



## mrdeli

Hello - well after much of my spare time during the last month devoted to the install and set up of the ms8 I'm on the verge of disconnecting it and pulling it all out. 

I'm extremely disappointed 

The problem seems to be the overwhelming bass that the sub pumps out. I've tried setting the external amp gains to zero, 7 and all in between but no joy. I've connected the sub straight to the ms8 but no joy - always too much sub. 

With processing defeated it sub disappears - but that's not right. 

My set up is as follows. 

Audi q5

Subsonic at 20 - channel 8
Front door woofers at 80 - channel 1&2
Front tweeters at 3500 channel 3&4
Centre at 340 - channel 5 (3.5" coax)
Rear sides at 100 - channels 6&7

All speakers are correct polarity

I calibrate at 20 (also tried 30). Then turn up to 6 afterwards. 

Is there anything else I can try or simply does the ms8 not work with audis?

Thanks all.


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## Babs

I imagine you've tried this but investigate with dsp defeated and test tones or sweep tones to see if any of the drivers have any resonance or buzzing anomalies. Just a thought. I'd check each driver independently with tones within its range. Just a wild ass guess. I thought, keyword, I had a good install but I've got resonance issues like crazy. Reason I'm completely tearing into my setup, doors especially.


----------



## Ryanu

mrdeli said:


> Hello - well after much of my spare time during the last month devoted to the install and set up of the ms8 I'm on the verge of disconnecting it and pulling it all out.
> 
> I'm extremely disappointed
> 
> The problem seems to be the overwhelming bass that the sub pumps out. I've tried setting the external amp gains to zero, 7 and all in between but no joy. I've connected the sub straight to the ms8 but no joy - always too much sub.
> 
> With processing defeated it sub disappears - but that's not right.
> 
> My set up is as follows.
> 
> Audi q5
> 
> Subsonic at 20 - channel 8
> Front door woofers at 80 - channel 1&2
> Front tweeters at 3500 channel 3&4
> Centre at 340 - channel 5 (3.5" coax)
> Rear sides at 100 - channels 6&7
> 
> All speakers are correct polarity
> 
> I calibrate at 20 (also tried 30). Then turn up to 6 afterwards.
> 
> Is there anything else I can try or simply does the ms8 not work with audis?
> 
> Thanks all.


First things first, does your Q5's oem equipped with built in factory amplifier? All speakers are powered by external amp? 

Have u tried to level match the speakers prior to calibration? Or at least put the amp gain at 2 volts setting, set vol at -40 and recalibrate.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Ryan

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


----------



## quality_sound

All Q5s have am OEM amp. 

Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


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## taibanl

mrdeli said:


> Hello - well after much of my spare time during the last month devoted to the install and set up of the ms8 I'm on the verge of disconnecting it and pulling it all out.
> 
> I'm extremely disappointed
> 
> The problem seems to be the overwhelming bass that the sub pumps out. I've tried setting the external amp gains to zero, 7 and all in between but no joy. I've connected the sub straight to the ms8 but no joy - always too much sub.
> 
> With processing defeated it sub disappears - but that's not right.
> 
> My set up is as follows.
> 
> Audi q5
> 
> Subsonic at 20 - channel 8
> Front door woofers at 80 - channel 1&2
> Front tweeters at 3500 channel 3&4
> Centre at 340 - channel 5 (3.5" coax)
> Rear sides at 100 - channels 6&7
> 
> All speakers are correct polarity
> 
> I calibrate at 20 (also tried 30). Then turn up to 6 afterwards.
> 
> Is there anything else I can try or simply does the ms8 not work with audis?
> 
> Thanks all.


 size of front door woofer? 

I would ms-8 is trying to fix a hole set by your xover point.


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## 14642

mrdeli said:


> Hello - well after much of my spare time during the last month devoted to the install and set up of the ms8 I'm on the verge of disconnecting it and pulling it all out.
> 
> I'm extremely disappointed
> 
> The problem seems to be the overwhelming bass that the sub pumps out. I've tried setting the external amp gains to zero, 7 and all in between but no joy. I've connected the sub straight to the ms8 but no joy - always too much sub.
> 
> With processing defeated it sub disappears - but that's not right.
> 
> My set up is as follows.
> 
> Audi q5
> 
> Subsonic at 20 - channel 8
> Front door woofers at 80 - channel 1&2
> Front tweeters at 3500 channel 3&4
> Centre at 340 - channel 5 (3.5" coax)
> Rear sides at 100 - channels 6&7
> 
> All speakers are correct polarity
> 
> I calibrate at 20 (also tried 30). Then turn up to 6 afterwards.
> 
> Is there anything else I can try or simply does the ms8 not work with audis?
> 
> Thanks all.


OK, two more questions:

1. Does your audi have a factory subwoofer? If it does and you've hooked the subwoofer output to the input of MS-8, try disconnecting the OEM subwoofer signal from MS-8's inputs and recalibrate the input and output. 

2. At what frequency is the subwoofer amplifier's crossover set?


----------



## mrdeli

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> OK, two more questions:
> 
> 1. Does your audi have a factory subwoofer? If it does and you've hooked the subwoofer output to the input of MS-8, try disconnecting the OEM subwoofer signal from MS-8's inputs and recalibrate the input and output.
> 
> 2. At what frequency is the subwoofer amplifier's crossover set?


Thanks for the replies. 


My Audi does have a factory sub. I read an earlier post that suggested disconnecting the sub input - I tried this yesterday - the sound overall was better, but still overwhelming sub levels - even with the sub level at minimum

My set up in detail is as follows 

Front.
8" B&O factory speakers in the front doors (my car does not have factory [email protected] option - I have retrofitted these.)
Audison voce 3.0 mid range in dash location, with audison av1.1 tweeters in same location. (These are crossed passively with audison crossover designed for these speakers and it crosses to the tweeter at 4000). 
Centre (due to limited space) is a 3 inch [email protected] mid and a B&O tweeter with cap (4.7 I think)

Side rear 

6.5" B&O factory speaker

Sub. I have tried the factory unit powered by the ms8, my own 10" jl sub both powered by a Fosgate mono amp and also powered by the ms8 (from channel 8)


My crossovers are:

Subsonic 20
Sub
Front woofer 80 up
Mids & tweeters 900 up (passive crossing to tweeters at 4000)
Centre 300 up
Rear door 100 up


I have tried fronts down to 60 and up to 100
I have tried mids from 300 up
I have tried centre 200 up

I have been able to get pretty decent sound with processing and logic 7 disabled, but with them enabled the sub level becomes ridiculous. 

I have read too much on other threads about how great the ms8 is - so I feel it must be something I am doing wrong - but just can't see what?

I must have tried over 80 calibrations now and am close to defeat. 

I've typed this on my phone so sorry for typos. 

Many thanks mark


----------



## mrdeli

Ps. The sub woofers amp crossover was set to allow full pass through on calibration, but seems better by turning it down to around 100 after calibration. 

The overwhelming sub occurs even with the ms8 connected directly to the factory or aftermarket sub though (without the amp)


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## taibanl

Its possible your configuration may require the kaigoss mod used in BMW 3 series. This corrects an issue where the Ms-8 boosts the sub which then gets very boomy around 60hz meanwhile midbass is lacking. 

There are more detailed posts on the mod in this thread but it involves sharing an ms-8 output channel between midbass and sub


----------



## mrdeli

taibanl said:


> Its possible your configuration may require the kaigoss mod used in BMW 3 series. This corrects an issue where the Ms-8 boosts the sub which then gets very boomy around 60hz meanwhile midbass is lacking.
> 
> There are more detailed posts on the mod in this thread but it involves sharing an ms-8 output channel between midbass and sub


This sounds very similar.


----------



## mrdeli

Ryanu said:


> First things first, does your Q5's oem equipped with built in factory amplifier? All speakers are powered by external amp?
> 
> Have u tried to level match the speakers prior to calibration? Or at least put the amp gain at 2 volts setting, set vol at -40 and recalibrate.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Regards,
> Ryan
> 
> Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk



I just have the sub powered by an amp - the ms8 powers the other speakers. 

In this instance should I calibrate at -20 or -40?

Thanks mark.


----------



## mrdeli

taibanl said:


> size of front door woofer?
> 
> I would ms-8 is trying to fix a hole set by your xover point.


What crossover would you think maybe better?

Thanks mark.


----------



## mrdeli

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> OK, two more questions:
> 
> 1. Does your audi have a factory subwoofer? If it does and you've hooked the subwoofer output to the input of MS-8, try disconnecting the OEM subwoofer signal from MS-8's inputs and recalibrate the input and output.
> 
> Tried this - seemed a little fuller in the mid range, but again massive sub volume compared with the rest.
> 
> 2. At what frequency is the subwoofer amplifier's crossover set?


I have calibrated with the crossover on the amp set at 230 (max). Turning this down to 100 after calibration help a little, but not great. 


Hi Andy - is there anything else you could think of - or a work around. 

I understand that sometimes there will be systems that are just not compatible - maybe my car is one of these - but if there's anything else I can do to salvage the situation I'm up for giving it a try. 

Thanks for your time. Mark.


----------



## Ryanu

mrdeli said:


> I just have the sub powered by an amp - the ms8 powers the other speakers.
> 
> In this instance should I calibrate at -20 or -40?
> 
> Thanks mark.


Try calibrating without sub at -20. As Andy always mentioned... sweep shouldn't be too loud. 

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## mrdeli

Ryanu said:


> Try calibrating without sub at -20. As Andy always mentioned... sweep shouldn't be too loud.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


Do you mean not having a sub registered with the ms8 or simply disconnecting the sub during calibration. 

Thanks.


----------



## taibanl

mrdeli said:


> What crossover would you think maybe better?
> 
> Thanks mark.


Disregard that. Didn't know you had 8"

You will have to try a calibration with no sub as per the other guys suggestion above (select NONE during cal)

That will give you an idea if kaigoss mod will work.Edit: try running the midbass speakers full range 30 or 40 to a few hundred hz


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## thehatedguy

-40 is a lower level than -20, when I would set up MS8 up, I would calibrate around -40-45 and the sub would barely be audible when it did it's sweep. I then would use my remote level control to fine tune the sub level...but I would not touch the gains afterwards.

The only time I got the bass from hell level was when I calibrated at too high of a volume.


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## Alias essSQuee

Why didn't the MS-8 get designed with a digital input? In the dirty electrical of a car and all the crazy random noise that can get on the analog wires, WHY didn't JBL utilize the ability to go "digital"???

I think in the future that HDMI cable technology should be utilized and also wifi digital link btw head unit--->processor---->AMP to avoid noise as much as possible. Clean signal = top SQ and happy listeners. There are advances now that SHOULD permit these technological options in car gear. I'm SICK of installs needing tons of wires when it's not needed. Imagine how you would make the INSTALLER'S DAY at the various big-box stores and how many more installs they could accomplish in a day if you had an all-digital-wifi capability with as many components as possible? 

So, just some suggestions to JBL for their next-gen gear. Be AHEAD of the curve SOMEBODY!


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## thehatedguy

If you read the thread on Carsound from like 2005 about the MS8, I among others was really wanting a digital input back then too...but no dice.


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## theoldguy

why HDMI? unless the processor is going to process video too, which would be unnecessary. Id say stick with the standard toslink optical cable if anything.


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## Babs

Alias essSQuee said:


> Why didn't the MS-8 get designed with a digital input? In the dirty electrical of a car and all the crazy random noise that can get on the analog wires, WHY didn't JBL utilize the ability to go "digital"???
> 
> 
> 
> I think in the future that HDMI cable technology should be utilized and also wifi digital link btw head unit--->processor---->AMP to avoid noise as much as possible. Clean signal = top SQ and happy listeners. There are advances now that SHOULD permit these technological options in car gear. I'm SICK of installs needing tons of wires when it's not needed. Imagine how you would make the INSTALLER'S DAY at the various big-box stores and how many more installs they could accomplish in a day if you had an all-digital-wifi capability with as many components as possible?
> 
> 
> 
> So, just some suggestions to JBL for their next-gen gear. Be AHEAD of the curve SOMEBODY!



Remember at the time some 6-7 or 8 years ago there were what maybe 3-4 head units, if that many, in a teeny tiny itty bitty aftermarket that actually had toslink outs. JBL put their eggs in the basket of auto tuning and logic 7 and the rest of the processor while making it affordable. Folks were still hunting down denon deadheads when this thing was being developed. The addition of toslink at that particular time would have killed development costs, and gone far off course to what the unit was intended to do.. Spank the 3sixty.2, cleansweep and pxe oem integration units for making stock oem source units sound better. Digital is still in its infancy in mobile audio as the market is very small and development very slow for the transition except among uber high end products in a speck of the market.


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## Alias essSQuee

Babs said:


> Digital is still in its infancy in mobile audio as the market is very small and development very slow for the transition except among uber high end products in a speck of the market.


In it's infancy? If these companies can develop full digital lossless Bluetooth wireless (aptx), with modern headunits (Kenwood's latest fare), then there is ZERO excuse why a digital wifi transmission can't be developed to link head units to amplifiers wirelessly with noise-free results. The company that puts out a full line of car audio gear like this, including a good sound processor is going to be ahead of everyone else. 

If it can be done for smartphones, then it can be done for the other gear too. We are NOT in the 'infancy' of technology for car audio, but we are in the middle of lazy designers who only respond to demand due to companies like Apple, instead of blazing their own trail of innovation.


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## Babs

I imagine I wouldn't want to rely on iffy radio in my car all the time. I'll stick with wires. Trick with sending digital is the demand isn't there yet or it'd be more available. There is zapco and Audison though if you want to talk digitally to your amps though. Also there are digital input processors out now that weren't even prototyped when the MS-8 was introduced. The MS-8 is simply now a bit of a legacy product designed to run on analog oem signals and volume controlled by the same oem head units. If digital is what you really want, from source to amp, the MS-8 simply isn't for you. Helix or Bit Ten maybe. Don't get me wrong. I hope there becomes more digital audio standardization, but it won't be part of integration-oriented processors but rather upscale processors that may also do oem integration.


----------



## REGULARCAB

Alias essSQuee said:


> Why didn't the MS-8 get designed with a digital input? In the dirty electrical of a car and all the crazy random noise that can get on the analog wires, WHY didn't JBL utilize the ability to go "digital"???
> 
> I think in the future that HDMI cable technology should be utilized and also wifi digital link btw head unit--->processor---->AMP to avoid noise as much as possible. Clean signal = top SQ and happy listeners. There are advances now that SHOULD permit these technological options in car gear. I'm SICK of installs needing tons of wires when it's not needed. Imagine how you would make the INSTALLER'S DAY at the various big-box stores and how many more installs they could accomplish in a day if you had an all-digital-wifi capability with as many components as possible?
> 
> So, just some suggestions to JBL for their next-gen gear. Be AHEAD of the curve SOMEBODY!


The MS-8 as i understand it was primarily designed as an upgrade to stock sound systems. Those sound systems all have speaker wires or RCA's.

Its always a huge gamble being the first to introduce a new technology, Especially one that would require you to replace every component in your system other than the speakers itself.

As far as wifi goes, there are too many issues with intereference, could you imagine 60 cars in a parkinglot all with wifi. I personally will always trust a piece of copper far more than anything over the air.

HDMI would be kinda nifty.


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## t3sn4f2

The primary reason Andy gave for the not having digital input was there isn't a universal single digital format like there is a low level analog signal. There's PCM, DTS, AC3, etc., as well as different sample rates which would require addition circuitry to deal with it. They didn't want to add the added complication into the mix.


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## 14642

We didn't put a digital input in MS-8 for a few reasons. One is that we didn't want to add the cost of decoders for digital signals--especially multichannel, since the version of L7 that's in the processor does a MUCH better job in the car than simply playing back the six streams. 

Also and as someone else mentioned, we weren't interested in the added complexity of helping customers understand that digital format matters. So, we developed an analog circuit that's nearly noise free. If there's no noise from ground loops or radiated noise, there's no noise, right?

If I were developing it now (12 years later), I'd put in a digital input and I'd use a different screen.


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## theoldguy

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If I were developing it now (12 years later), I'd put in a digital input and I'd use a different screen.


is this maybe a "hint hint" to something coming down the road?


----------



## subwoofery

theoldguy said:


> is this maybe a "hint hint" to something coming down the road?


If he does now (12 years later), it won't have the JBL brand on it  

Kelvin


----------



## sqnut

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If I were developing it now (12 years later), I'd put in a digital input and I'd use a different screen.


Would you also allow manual TA?


----------



## thehatedguy

Yeah the screen was/is weak sauce.

And a digital input would be cool.

I still like the processor and liked what it did with the conventional speakers I had...sort of want another now.


----------



## Babs

theoldguy said:


> is this maybe a "hint hint" to something coming down the road?



Remembering how much grief Andy endured when the MS-8 was well known but unreleased, I wouldn't blame him one bit if the first you hear of a new product is at CES or after it's already available for purchase. It was brutal with all the "when when when???!" pain and suffering.


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## kaigoss69

I think the MS-8 could have been made much more functional and user friendly by incorporating some level-checking steps to allow the user to adjust amp gains instead of the processor trying to level everything out and running out of steam in the process. I am sure in an OEM system where all the speakers are the same sensitivity it would probably not be required, but full blown aftermarket systems with a smorgasbord of speakers, amps, and challenging install positions would definitely benefit from such a feature. At the same time, I'm sure a polarity check could also have been incorporated easily. I am convinced JBL lost a lot of money (and customer satisfaction) because people did not get the desired results out of the box and did not bother going through all the trouble shooting, fiddling around, recalibrating over and over again, and employing workarounds, that most of us went through. 

Having said all that, my system sounds incredible now. It only took me about 4 years to get there.


----------



## Loudy

Agreed, my set-up took a year to get dialed in and sounding great but is now worthless due to what Harmon assumes are weak connections. 

HCG, "But by the same token, it is also possible that there are several wires connected to the unit and are anchored down causing some stress on the jacks inside the unit. And maybe this eventually caused a hairline crack in one of the soldered terminals on the inside." 

They recommend that since it is out of warranty, I take it to be repaired at my expense.


----------



## elerner61

I'm running my MS-8 off my OEM headunit and about to do some re-tuning after having left it alone for a year. A question, do I have to recalibrate the MS-8 with the headunit every time I do an auto tune? Is there any way around the calibration step and have it use the existing calibration? Thx.


----------



## taibanl

elerner61 said:


> I'm running my MS-8 off my OEM headunit and about to do some re-tuning after having left it alone for a year. A question, do I have to recalibrate the MS-8 with the headunit every time I do an auto tune? Is there any way around the calibration step and have it use the existing calibration? Thx.


 you can tune (acoustically) without signal correction bit not vice versa.


----------



## theoldguy

Im sure this situation has already been addressed in this thread, but unfortunately I dont have the time to read all 151 pages, so I do apologize up front. 

I plan on purchasing a 2014 mazda 3 with the blows (er i mean bose) "upgrade". The way this setup is designed is the bose amp receives a digital signal and converts it back to analog at the speaker outputs. My only choice is to use the high level connector on the MS-8 to the speaker outputs of the bose amp. Since the bose amp is already EQing the signal, will this cause a problem for the MS-8? or will it be smart enough to return the signal back to its unaltered form?


----------



## IbizaOnAcid

Hello everyone. I assume a situation similar to mine has probably been addressed somewhere in this thread but I have yet to find it. (and I swear I HAVE looked)
Anyway here's what I have going on. First off a rundown of my sytem. I have a threeway front stage utilizing the Focal KRX3 component set. The mids and tweeters are in the pillars with the woofers in the stock door locations. Oh yeah the car is a 2013 Dodge Challenger R/T. Then I have 2 JL 12w6s in a sealed box in the trunk.
The mids and tweeters are powered by a JL HD600/4 with each speaker having it's own channel. The tweeters are connected to output 1 and 2 of the MS8 with the mids on channels 3 and 4. The woofers (midbass) are powered by an Arc Audio KS300.4 that is bridged to 2 channels. These are connected to outputs 5 and 6 of the MS8.
Finally the pair of 12w6s are powered by a JL HD1200/1 and are connected to outputs 7 and 8.
Ok so I just finished getting this system installed and up and running this afternoon. This is my first experience with the MS8 and I ran through the setup exactly as the instructions state. I set the subsonic filter at 20hz 12db the xover between the midbass and mids at 400hz 12db and between the mids and tweeters at 3.2khz 12db. Then I ran the acoustic calibration from the front 2 seats and the result is god awful! The system sounds very thin and well just dead. Kind of like the mids are the only speakers making any sound. Which btw is not the case. All speakers are funtioning. Now when I turn off the processing the system sounds infinitely better. Of course it is not tuned at all but none the less it sounds awesome compared to using the tune that the MS8 came up with.
What am I missing? Does anybody have any advice as to what I might be doing wrong and what I might try differently? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Craig


----------



## IbizaOnAcid

I forgot to include that I am using an aftermarket Kenwood DD Navi head unit. If that even matters...:blush:


----------



## Ryanu

IbizaOnAcid said:


> Hello everyone. I assume a situation similar to mine has probably been addressed somewhere in this thread but I have yet to find it. (and I swear I HAVE looked)
> Anyway here's what I have going on. First off a rundown of my sytem. I have a threeway front stage utilizing the Focal KRX3 component set. The mids and tweeters are in the pillars with the woofers in the stock door locations. Oh yeah the car is a 2013 Dodge Challenger R/T. Then I have 2 JL 12w6s in a sealed box in the trunk.
> The mids and tweeters are powered by a JL HD600/4 with each speaker having it's own channel. The tweeters are connected to output 1 and 2 of the MS8 with the mids on channels 3 and 4. The woofers (midbass) are powered by an Arc Audio KS300.4 that is bridged to 2 channels. These are connected to outputs 5 and 6 of the MS8.
> Finally the pair of 12w6s are powered by a JL HD1200/1 and are connected to outputs 7 and 8.
> Ok so I just finished getting this system installed and up and running this afternoon. This is my first experience with the MS8 and I ran through the setup exactly as the instructions state. I set the subsonic filter at 20hz 12db the xover between the midbass and mids at 400hz 12db and between the mids and tweeters at 3.2khz 12db. Then I ran the acoustic calibration from the front 2 seats and the result is god awful! The system sounds very thin and well just dead. Kind of like the mids are the only speakers making any sound. Which btw is not the case. All speakers are funtioning. Now when I turn off the processing the system sounds infinitely better. Of course it is not tuned at all but none the less it sounds awesome compared to using the tune that the MS8 came up with.
> What am I missing? Does anybody have any advice as to what I might be doing wrong and what I might try differently? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks in advance.
> Craig


1st: are u running front stage with the passive crossover?
2nd: have u level matched the speakers?
3rd: at what volume did u run the sweep?

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


----------



## IbizaOnAcid

Ryanu said:


> 1st: are u running front stage with the passive crossover?
> 2nd: have u level matched the speakers?
> 3rd: at what volume did u run the sweep?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


1. No passives. I am strictly using the xovers in the MS8
2. I have level matched the speakers to some extent but am actually working on doing a better job of that right now.
3. -30db and -25db.


----------



## Ryanu

IbizaOnAcid said:


> 1. No passives. I am strictly using the xovers in the MS8
> 2. I have level matched the speakers to some extent but am actually working on doing a better job of that right now.
> 3. -30db and -25db.


if u have done all these. It shouldnt sound that bad. Maybe try lower vol and rerun the sweep. Also check and confirm polarity for all speakers. Make sure they r in order.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## IbizaOnAcid

Ryanu said:


> if u have done all these. _*It shouldnt sound that bad. *_Maybe try lower vol and rerun the sweep. Also check and confirm polarity for all speakers. Make sure they r in order.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


My thought exactly! Anyway I am in the process of going over the install with a fine tooth comb. Unfortunately haven't found anything out of whack yet but I am still looking. Any and all suggestions more than welcome!:blush:


----------



## GWijaya

IbizaOnAcid said:


> My thought exactly! Anyway I am in the process of going over the install with a fine tooth comb. Unfortunately haven't found anything out of whack yet but I am still looking. Any and all suggestions more than welcome!:blush:


Please make sure to set the eq on the HU flat...


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## Arthur71

Use the channel identification (white noise?) from the ms8 after you assigned the channels to "align" the gains. I used an analyzer app on my iPad to get the response of all channels to the same level. Also set the gain of the Sub's such that there output produces the same spl as any other front-channel. Be careful since you have 2 subs, together they will give 3 dB more than one. This will make the calibration by the ms8 MUCH easier.


----------



## Duckstu

Arthur71 said:


> Use the channel identification (white noise?) from the ms8 after you assigned the channels to "align" the gains. I used an analyzer app on my iPad to get the response of all channels to the same level. Also set the gain of the Sub's such that there output produces the same spl as any other front-channel. Be careful since you have 2 subs, together they will give 3 dB more than one. This will make the calibration by the ms8 MUCH easier.



That's what I tried.

One has to keep in mind the effect of the auto-correction though. You need to use an RTA and not a db meter to do what you're decsribing.

What I mean is,... (and I'll use the subwoofer channel in my vehicle as an example),.. there might be a resonance in the cabin that the MS will EQ out,.. and what's left needs to be 12 db higher than the main part of the midrange.

In my example I use a 12" woofer with an fs at about 19 hz, mounted in a sealed enclosure. In general,... a woofer in a sealed enclosure will have a drop off as it goes downward in frequency (from 50hz down to 10 let's say) at a rate of about 6 db per octave. But the cabin of a car has a gain down there of about +6 db. So put the two together and a good woofer,.. in a properly sized sealed enclosure,,... and sitting inside a vehicle should be pretty flat down to the woofer's fs. (In my case 19 hz,.. and that's what I saw on my uncorrected RTA graph)

BUT,.. my SUV's cabin produces a resonance spike of 17 db centered at 51 hz. And the MS-8 is going to edit this out when it does it's auto-calibration. So what I needed to do was play the setup pink-noise and look at the graph on my RTA,.. and ignore the 17db spike at 51 kz and adjust the gains so that the rest of the sub's frequencies were at about 10-12 db louder than the meat of the midrange. (Using a simple db meter this would have been set 29 db louder, but you wouldn't be able to know that).

Food for thought.

I also want a way to shut off the subsonic filter. Every one I've tried (including the MS-8, the one built into my JL Audio sub amp etc) has produced a large drop-off from 20+ hz above the set-point. Before calibration my bass is flat within 3-4 db from 18-48 hz,.. but with the MS-8 's subsonic filter set to 20 hz and -6 db per octave (the mildest setting you're allowed to choose),.. I get what looks to be a 12 db roll-off from about 40 hz. So I have to do some wild looking stuff with the graphic EQ after the cal is done. And I don't like doing 10+ db gains at 20 and 25 hz with graphic EQ's. Gives me the willy s.


----------



## IbizaOnAcid

GWijaya said:


> Please make sure to set the eq on the HU flat...


It is but thanks for the suggestion.
I tried doing the calibration at -40db and for whatever reason this seemed to help quite a bit. It's still nowhere near where it should be and still sounds much better with the tune bypassed but it is considerably better than it was. Does this give anyone a clue as to what might be wrong? I was hoping that this might be indicative of a certain problem that has been discovered [and solved] by someone reading this.


----------



## Ryanu

IbizaOnAcid said:


> It is but thanks for the suggestion.
> I tried doing the calibration at -40db and for whatever reason this seemed to help quite a bit. It's still nowhere near where it should be and still sounds much better with the tune bypassed but it is considerably better than it was. Does this give anyone a clue as to what might be wrong? I was hoping that this might be indicative of a certain problem that has been discovered [and solved] by someone reading this.


1 possible reason is your amp gain could be too high. 2ndly, speakers are not level matched properly.

Try excluding ur sub and run the calibration. See whether it sounds great with the right tonality, staging and imaging.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## csperl1

Andy or someone with knowledge of the display-can you please answer these questions?

My display does not work. I have checked cable continuity (ok), the input jack on the base unit does not seem broken (from outside), the cable is firmly pushed all the way in to both the display and ms8, unit powers up and passes sound, turns on my amps, etc.

Is there anything else I can do from the outside of my MS8 to determine why the display will not work?

Can I check the voltage/resistance, etc on the display end of the cable to determine if it is DEFINITELY the display or the base unit? I do not have a spare display to plug in.

Does JBL have a flat repair rate to fix this?


----------



## IbizaOnAcid

Ryanu said:


> 1 possible reason is your amp gain could be too high. 2ndly, speakers are not level matched properly.
> 
> Try excluding ur sub and run the calibration. See whether it sounds great with the right tonality, staging and imaging.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


The subject of level matching keeps coming up and although I THINK I know how to acomplish this can someone please shed some light on the BEST way to do it?
Equipment that I have and I assume to be useful is a RS SPL meter and a computer setup consisting of a copy of TrueRTA, a Behringer ECM 8000 mic and a MXL Mic Mate. Can I properly accomplish the level matching with these tools or is there something else I should try and get my hands on? Thanks again for any and all help.


----------



## Ryanu

Or like what andy mentioned over and over again... forget about the meter. Dial in roughly where the 2v for your amp and go from there I guess. Good luck!

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## Arthur71

@IbizaOnAcid

This is wat I wrote 3 weeks ago about what I did. Maybe it helps you too:



> Major SQ breakthrough!
> 
> My setup:
> Tweeters in dash powered by MS8
> Coax center in dash powered by MS8
> Composet in rear doors powered by MS8
> Woofers in front door and Sub powered by 4 CH external amp
> 
> After setting filters in MS8 I used the channel ID signals from MS8 to set the gain on front door woofers using an RTA App on iPad. Align SW gain to match output level of SW to front channel. After doing this I ran the calibration sweeps at -20 dB and the result was perfect! The sound is perfectly balanced, staging is up and centered, mid bass and sub bass are restored. Now it sounds like I had hooped it would have from the beginning. I had the level of the front woofer and SW set to ˜2V (was a bit of a guess, no correct scale present), but that was apparently too low.
> 
> Aligning the levels before the calibration made the job for the MS8 MUCH easier.
> 
> Now all I do is "play" a bit with the SW level if I feel like I want some what more bass, per song and that it! on't need to play with the EQ settings at all.


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## bondmanp

Hi all! In my rare spare time, I have read this entire thread (took me months). This is my first post. I have reached the conclusion that the MS-8 is probably the best thing for upgrading my system, but I have many questions. I thought I would start from the more general, then work my way to the more specific. I am a complete newbie to mobile audio, long-time home audiophile. I have no time, experience or ability for DIY. Ultimately, I would have to hire pros to do any install work.

1. My first question has to do with JBL and the MS-8. Is JBL still producing/supporting this product? I have seen posts expressing frustration regarding service and replacement parts, as well as reliability issues. How worried should I be about these? The last thing I want to do is go from reliable, if mediocre, SQ to a better tune that doesn't work. I have a boring commute, and music is what makes it bearable.

2. My preference would be to purchase the MS-8 from an authorized B&M dealer with MS-8 install experience. I would even pay full or close to full retail MSRP at such a dealer. As per the JBL web site, there is just one local dealer for JBL mobile audio, Interstate Electronics in Hazlet, NJ. Anyone have any experience with this installer? How about experience with this installer and the MS-8 specifically?

TIA!


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## Duckstu

Ryanu said:


> Or like what andy mentioned over and over again... forget about the meter. Dial in roughly where the 2v for your amp and go from there I guess. Good luck!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk



I tried that. The resulting volume was so low that you couldn't hear the stereo on the freeway. I found that a little bit below 1v was OK,.. on heavily compressed music like the radio,.. but was still lacking for the good stuff.

Below about 3/4v there was too much hiss. So it's a fine line.

The biggest issue is level matching. This would be stupid-simple if the MS-8 had a menu where you could look at the resulting levels it was sending out to the various channels after calibration. You could simply adjust the amp gains accordingly and and run the cal again.

That and better RCA terminals are what this unit need most. Desperately even.

Sent from my Dell Optiplex desktop compluer using Logitech keyboard and mouse.


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## 14642

bondmanp said:


> Hi all! In my rare spare time, I have read this entire thread (took me months). This is my first post. I have reached the conclusion that the MS-8 is probably the best thing for upgrading my system, but I have many questions. I thought I would start from the more general, then work my way to the more specific. I am a complete newbie to mobile audio, long-time home audiophile. I have no time, experience or ability for DIY. Ultimately, I would have to hire pros to do any install work.
> 
> 1. My first question has to do with JBL and the MS-8. Is JBL still producing/supporting this product? I have seen posts expressing frustration regarding service and replacement parts, as well as reliability issues. How worried should I be about these? The last thing I want to do is go from reliable, if mediocre, SQ to a better tune that doesn't work. I have a boring commute, and music is what makes it bearable.
> 
> 2. My preference would be to purchase the MS-8 from an authorized B&M dealer with MS-8 install experience. I would even pay full or close to full retail MSRP at such a dealer. As per the JBL web site, there is just one local dealer for JBL mobile audio, Interstate Electronics in Hazlet, NJ. Anyone have any experience with this installer? How about experience with this installer and the MS-8 specifically?
> 
> TIA!


I have no idea if they are still building it. Apparently, I'm the only tech support for it and I'm too busy to continue the way I have. If you buy one and it breaks and it's still under warranty, they'll probably replace it for you. They won't repair them and they apparently don't have parts.


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## taibanl

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I have no idea if they are still building it. Apparently, I'm the only tech support for it and I'm too busy to continue the way I have. If you buy one and it breaks and it's still under warranty, they'll probably replace it for you. They won't repair them and they apparently don't have parts.


They seem to be. Ive recently received two backordered parts and a backordered unit.


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## bondmanp

^ Thanks Andy and taibanl! I will consider both your replies before committing. I totally understand your feelings, Andy. Your efforts at supporting your baby just because you enjoy the hobby and feel responsible in some ways has been heroic. The info you have contributed here is comprehensive and I can't imagine anyone having issues with the MS-8 not covered in this thread or the FAQ.

Next questions:

I am beginning to think that my particular vehicle and OEM system are somewhat rare. I have searched this site, without finding anything that would help me decide whether to go with the MS-8 or not. I have an '03 Subi Outback VDC with McIntosh-branded components (I know these were made by Clarion, which owned McIntosh at the time, but McIntosh does seem to have had a lot to say about the design). Also, it is pretty quiet for a Subaru (lots of wind noise, but road and engine noise pretty well damped). I was able to get a wiring diagram for the harness from McIntosh. As far as I can tell, the system goes from HU (the 6-disc changer model) to the amp under the passenger seat. According to McIntosh, all the x-overs are in that amp. I suspect the 200 watts are divided into 4 X 25 and 1 X 100 for the subwoofer. The speakers are 6.5" coaxials in each door, tweeters in the sail panels, and a 6" X 9" (?) woofer in the side wall of the rear deck. Unlike other Outbacks, there appears to be no separate tweets in the pillars at the back of the vehicle. What I cannot determine is how or if the tweets in the sail pannels are crossed over from the coaxials in the doors below.

I have to admit, the SQ as is is not horrible. The bass and front stage are in front, although no further out than the windshield or the side windows. I do feel the car would benefit strongly from being tuned for better power response, and I would love a more holographic sound stage. I want a total stealth install, so the factory amp would have to go, replaced by the MS-8 under the passenger seat. I would be greatly reducing the output power available to the subwoofer, I think, if I do this. My thought isd to run the front coaxes and sail-panel tweets active, the rear coaxes passive (may need to add passive x-overs for the coaxes), and the sub, leaving one spare channel on the MS-8.

Questions: 

Is there any place I can find other VDC/McIntosh owners into SQ?

Is the MS-8 a wise upgrade for me?

TIA.


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## 14642

It's probably a good upgrade. You should consider upgrading the sub and adding a small amplifier to drive it.


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## firebri

I can't imagine JBL would stop producing such a popular, revolutionary product, unless they were replacing it with something even better. God knows there are other products out there that have stood the test of time because of their reliability and continued relevance in spite of newer technology. I may not be as up to date on what's available out there as many others on this site, but am I wrong?


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## firebri

I plan on making the MS-8 my next purchase on the road to building my next system. I have been shamed by you all into changing my plans from a passive system, to active...thanks for complicating my life!


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## bondmanp

You make some good points, firebri, and you may be correct. But still, JBL let the father of this project walk, and there does seem to have been an extended period in which replacement parts were backordered. I guess my point is that, especially for me, and even for an experienced DIYer, the mediocre product support from JBL since Andy's departure is at least a yellow flag, if not a red one. Add to that the fact that several high-profile online sellers have stopped selling the MS-8 while continuing to sell JBL products (Crutchfield being the best example), and you can see why I have some concerns.

But, provided I can find a good local installer that I feel has MS-8 experience, I will probably give it a shot in the comming months. As Andy suggested, I may also need a small sub amp, which means both the cost and complexity are bit higher than I originally had thought.


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## firebri

How about this scenario! JBL stops producing the MS-8, therefore the units already in circulation become priceless due to the lack of another option!  Better get 'em while you can!


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## bondmanp

^ I can see that. Kinds like Logitech's abandonement of Squeezebox. SBT's are trading for more than list when you can find them.


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## MetricMuscle

firebri said:


> I plan on making the MS-8 my next purchase on the road to building my next system. I have been shamed by you all into changing my plans from a passive system, to active...thanks for complicating my life!


Active is only complicated because it actually gives you many options to make things right. Passive either doesn't or is lots more complicated. You wanna hurt your brain some with complication? Peruse diyaudio.com or PartsExpress Tech section on building proper passive crossovers. Adjustment is via replacing components, not touching buttons. Passive can easily be lots more expensive in the end too. You'd think it would be a dying art form since additional amplifier channels are so inexpensive these day.



bondmanp said:


> But still, JBL let the father of this project walk,


The decision makers at most big companies are not usually fans of the hobby they make stuff for, they are number crunchers. They probably thought Andy was a costly liability from day one and hated that they had to spend a dime for him to create a silly box that clearly any minimum wage floor sweeper could. 

The shortages and delays with parts is probably because they were using a Just In Time inventory system run by someone with no skill in doing it. There is a line between JIT and Production Downtime, you gotta be good to stay on the JIT side.



firebri said:


> How about this scenario! JBL stops producing the MS-8, therefore the units already in circulation become priceless due to the lack of another option!  Better get 'em while you can!





bondmanp said:


> ^ I can see that. Kinds like Logitech's abandonement of Squeezebox. SBT's are trading for more than list when you can find them.


This scarcity doesn't help Harmon/JBL at all unless it makes them more money.

More than likely they have/had a business model for the MS-8 and the minute it started on what they concluded was a slow down in sales growth, they made adjustments. Every company in he world would love to have a reputation for great customer service it's just most aren't willing to pay for and make it happen. At least WalMart is honest about it.


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## jdsoldger

I hope they don't discontinue it. I got mine last fall and it is exactly what I needed. It took my not so great install (alpine type s woofers in stock undamped doors and Vift XT25SC90's on the dash with a sealed 12 in the hatch) and made it sound so good I have had passengers stop mid sentence, listen for 30 seconds the just go "wow..." (Santana sounds reaaaaaaly good). I am hopeing to redo the speakers over the summer and see what it can really do with a decent setup.


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## bondmanp

So, I am getting tempted to pull the trigger. I guess I have one final question:

Does anyone know of a reliable installer with MS-8 experience in the central or northern New Jersey area? Outside of the one authorized JBL mobile dealer near me on the JBL web site, I know of no installers with MS-8 experience. I have a great installer near me (Vortex Audio in Union, NJ), but when I mentioned the MS-8, they clearly did not know anything about the unit. As I have no knowledge about Interstate Electronics in Hazlet, NJ, the one JBL authorized dealer near me, so I am a bit nervous about rolling the dice with them. Again - my main fear is going from mediocre SQ to silence. Even one commute without tunes is unthinkable!


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## jdsoldger

bondmanp said:


> So, I am getting tempted to pull the trigger. I guess I have one final question:
> 
> Does anyone know of a reliable installer with MS-8 experience in the central or northern New Jersey area? Outside of the one authorized JBL mobile dealer near me on the JBL web site, I know of no installers with MS-8 experience. I have a great installer near me (Vortex Audio in Union, NJ), but when I mentioned the MS-8, they clearly did not know anything about the unit. As I have no knowledge about Interstate Electronics in Hazlet, NJ, the one JBL authorized dealer near me, so I am a bit nervous about rolling the dice with them. Again - my main fear is going from mediocre SQ to silence. Even one commute without tunes is unthinkable!


Installing this thing is as easy as installing an amp once you take a glance through the manual. You just put the unit in and run and hook up the wires you need. Any good shop should be able to do it no problem. You could probably do it yourself even if you have any experiance at all installing things. I would offer to help you put it in, but I have zero free time until the second week in may. I did install my own, in an evening after work and that included the modifications I had to do to my remade hatch floor in my car. Here it is in situ (ignore the quick thrown togetherness of floor thing, like I said, I had to modify it to fit the JBL and did it all in an evening).


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## bondmanp

^ thanks jdsoldger. I I really have no time or talent for this sort of thing. The only time I attempted an install was to surprise my dad with a new am/fm cassette HU in the dash of his 1972 Olds Toronado. A buddy and I carefully followed the instructions, but in the end, we had to take it to an install joint to fix oour mistakes it and put the dash back on. No attempts at DIY have been done since. Plus, I want to be very sure everything is done safely - I don't want any shorts, fires, etc., and I want to make sure I can go back to the installer if something is wrong later on. Based on my reading of this entire thread, there are lots of ways to mess up this install, so I will gladly pay to have it done properly. I will see how my regular installers (Vortex) feel about doing this. If they are not comfortable, I guess I will give the JBL dealer a shot at it if I don't hear of any alternatives. Thanks!


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## Patrick Bateman

firebri said:


> I can't imagine JBL would stop producing such a popular, revolutionary product, unless they were replacing it with something even better. God knows there are other products out there that have stood the test of time because of their reliability and continued relevance in spite of newer technology. I may not be as up to date on what's available out there as many others on this site, but am I wrong?


Ha, that's the best laugh I've had all day.
As someone who's working in engineering for nearly twenty years, I can testify that companies pull the plug on good products all the time, and routinely green light products that are total pieces of crap.


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## firebri

Sad, but easy to believe. Just another reason to get one sooner than later. Definitely my next purchase. Glad to hear Andy's talents won't be wasted. I've frequently gravitated to lesser know companies with innovative products over the years. It's the passion that's important. I purchased an SVS home subwoofer when they were new on the scene...my surround speakers are from a small company called GR Research...both companies started out small, and targeted the true enthusiast more than the mainstream consumer. Always thankful for these companies. 

I've been out of the hobby a while as I've stated in an earlier post, but I've already been checking out a few of the companies I had never heard of...Sundown, Zed, Arc Audio...The MS-8 actually appears to be a product that was born in a mainstream company by an independent, passionate enthusiast. A bit of an anomaly. I think innovative people need to forge their own way, without the restraint of the "successful" mainstream corporations. I think the internet has been a huge blessing for such people. Judging by what I've read on this, and other threads, I'd say Andy will be seeing huge success with his new path. 

To philosophical? Thoughts just kind of got away from me...


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## Dumple

well im having a hell of a time trying to set my ms8 and msa5001, i seem to get all bass no mids or midbass, or all high no bass no midbass,

sometimes depending on the xover settings i use my mids seem to break up, sounds almost like a coil coming loose.

before I continue let me state my set up
Source: Pioneer Appradio 3
JBL ms8
polk db 6500 series tweeters
PHD studio neo 6.5s 
CDT m6+i 
JBL MS-A5001
an tc sounds epic 10

no here is what my problem is, im running this as a "3-way" set up with the phds and tweeters up front in the doors, and the cdts in the rear quarters. If i set it up with out the sub everything sounds great, good image, clear and authoritative midbass, good mids and clean crisp highs, but when I set the sub in the equation everything seems like its muddy and unclear. Midbass disappears and mids seem weak.


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## Ryanu

Dumple said:


> well im having a hell of a time trying to set my ms8 and msa5001, i seem to get all bass no mids or midbass, or all high no bass no midbass,
> 
> sometimes depending on the xover settings i use my mids seem to break up, sounds almost like a coil coming loose.
> 
> before I continue let me state my set up
> Source: Pioneer Appradio 3
> JBL ms8
> polk db 6500 series tweeters
> PHD studio neo 6.5s
> CDT m6+i
> JBL MS-A5001
> an tc sounds epic 10
> 
> no here is what my problem is, im running this as a "3-way" set up with the phds and tweeters up front in the doors, and the cdts in the rear quarters. If i set it up with out the sub everything sounds great, good image, clear and authoritative midbass, good mids and clean crisp highs, but when I set the sub in the equation everything seems like its muddy and unclear. Midbass disappears and mids seem weak.


One possible reason could be sub sweep was too loud during calibration. try lowering down the sub amp gain to almost minimum, run the calibration again. If u get all what u r lookong for after the calibration, just increase back the sub amp gain to ur own preference.

On the mids breaking up. Cross them at their so called safe frequency zones, refer to the specs. 

Good luck dude!

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## Dumple

Ryanu said:


> One possible reason could be sub sweep was too loud during calibration. try lowering down the sub amp gain to almost minimum, run the calibration again. If u get all what u r lookong for after the calibration, just increase back the sub amp gain to ur own preference.
> 
> On the mids breaking up. Cross them at their so called safe frequency zones, refer to the specs.
> 
> Good luck dude!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


Sweep is almost not audible during calibration, just can't get this thing right. I had awesome mids with out the sub. Tried switching the phase at the subwoofer and it seemed to get better but didn't ..


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## jdsoldger

Dumple said:


> Sweep is almost not audible during calibration, just can't get this thing right. I had awesome mids with out the sub. Tried switching the phase at the subwoofer and it seemed to get better but didn't ..


Mine works great with the volume on the MS8 turned all the way up and the gains on the amp set for an ~ flat response with the processing disabled. The sub sweep is quite loud on mine.


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## thebetaproject

Dumple said:


> well im having a hell of a time trying to set my ms8 and msa5001, i seem to get all bass no mids or midbass, or all high no bass no midbass


The volume of the sub when tuning can make a big difference so try it with the sub amp gain turned down a bit and if no good up a bit.

It also seems that in some cars it has real difficulty tuning the bass and the best mid bass I got with the MS8 was with no sub configured. I resolved most of the issues by configuring the sub as normal speaker, not a sub (as recommended somewhere in this thread). 

As you already have 3 way this isn't an option, so try reconfiguring the MS8 as a normal 3 way but split the bass output from the MS8 to use the crossovers in the amps for the mid bass/sub crossover. With this method it might be worth turning the sub off for the first set of test tones (only) which do the TA.


----------



## deeep

bondmanp said:


> ^ thanks jdsoldger. I I really have no time or talent for this sort of thing. The only time I attempted an install was to surprise my dad with a new am/fm cassette HU in the dash of his 1972 Olds Toronado. A buddy and I carefully followed the instructions, but in the end, we had to take it to an install joint to fix oour mistakes it and put the dash back on. No attempts at DIY have been done since. Plus, I want to be very sure everything is done safely - I don't want any shorts, fires, etc., and I want to make sure I can go back to the installer if something is wrong later on. Based on my reading of this entire thread, there are lots of ways to mess up this install, so I will gladly pay to have it done properly. I will see how my regular installers (Vortex) feel about doing this. If they are not comfortable, I guess I will give the JBL dealer a shot at it if I don't hear of any alternatives. Thanks!


If Interstate works out for you post your results. They seem close enough and this ms-8 intrigues me.


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## 14642

MS-8 uses 50-80Hz to set the level of the sub. If you're using a sealed box that has all of its output in that region or a big peak there, it will reduce the level of the sub and then try to boost the lower bass. 

You may find that you get the results you want if you use the LPF in the sub amp to reduce the bass in that range. Try a 12dB slope at 50Hz on the MS-A5001 and then recalibrate. If you can't hear the sub sweep, then you've gone overboard on the attenuation. You should hear the sweep, but it shouldn't be so loud that it shakes the mirrors.


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## Dumple

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8 uses 50-80Hz to set the level of the sub. If you're using a sealed box that has all of its output in that region or a big peak there, it will reduce the level of the sub and then try to boost the lower bass.
> 
> You may find that you get the results you want if you use the LPF in the sub amp to reduce the bass in that range. Try a 12dB slope at 50Hz on the MS-A5001 and then recalibrate. If you can't hear the sub sweep, then you've gone overboard on the attenuation. You should hear the sweep, but it shouldn't be so loud that it shakes the mirrors.


It is set exactly like that the sub bass is there. But mids and midbass are lacking and even highs seem washed out and slightly distorted on some notes 


Is there 2 modes to this thing ? Ez and advanced if so how do you access them


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## taibanl

Dumple said:


> It is set exactly like that the sub bass is there. But mids and midbass are lacking and even highs seem washed out and slightly distorted on some notes
> 
> 
> Is there 2 modes to this thing ? Ez and advanced if so how do you access them


There are not two modes

Its possible your overall calibration volume was too low, I have had distortion when this occurred.


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## talan7

bondmanp said:


> So, I am getting tempted to pull the trigger. I guess I have one final question:
> 
> Does anyone know of a reliable installer with MS-8 experience in the central or northern New Jersey area? Outside of the one authorized JBL mobile dealer near me on the JBL web site, I know of no installers with MS-8 experience. I have a great installer near me (Vortex Audio in Union, NJ), but when I mentioned the MS-8, they clearly did not know anything about the unit. As I have no knowledge about Interstate Electronics in Hazlet, NJ, the one JBL authorized dealer near me, so I am a bit nervous about rolling the dice with them. Again - my main fear is going from mediocre SQ to silence. Even one commute without tunes is unthinkable!


Soundwaves in Parsippany NJ installs them even though they are an Audison shop. I have the MS8, MS a5001, and MS1004 to install in my car. They are whom I'm using.


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## deeep

^ nice, put up pics of the install when its done!


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## bondmanp

talan7 - Thanks! That is very good to know. Overall, are you satisfied with Soundwaves' work? Parsippany is a little closer to me than Hazlet, and I would much prefer to go with a shop that someone has had a good experience with regarding the MS-8.


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## talan7

bondmanp said:


> talan7 - Thanks! That is very good to know. Overall, are you satisfied with Soundwaves' work? Parsippany is a little closer to me than Hazlet, and I would much prefer to go with a shop that someone has had a good experience with regarding the MS-8.


Yeah, I'm satisfied with them. They already installed my MS A5001 and sub so I'm familiar with their work. They are a big shop that's been around a long time. They recently opened a shop in Union NJ on rt 22 and I visited them a couple of weeks ago. The Union shop is closer to my home. I work in Parsippany so I'll probably stay with the Parsippany shop. They are pricey though, but it's worth it for a good install. I've redone many a cars system at many different shops and have had varying degrees of quality.

Car Audio | Home Theater | Remote Car Starter | NJ | NYC


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## bondmanp

^Thanks again, talan7. I am close to the Union location. Some unanticipated expenses have just come up, so the MS-8 is on hold for now. But when I can do it, I will try Soundwaves in Union.


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## Ryanu

Hi guys, I have recently moved my MS-8 to my 2009 corolla. Running of all oem speakers with an additional alpine center speaker. My question is, if i were to change my front component to an aftermarket component with 50 wrms rating, would ms-8 be able to support that requirement without having an external amp installed? wherever possible I would love to avoid adding external amplifier to the setup. Cheers!


----------



## Golden Ear

Ryanu said:


> Hi guys, I have recently moved my MS-8 to my 2009 corolla. Running of all oem speakers with an additional alpine center speaker. My question is, if i were to change my front component to an aftermarket component with 50 wrms rating, would ms-8 be able to support that requirement without having an external amp installed? wherever possible I would love to avoid adding external amplifier to the setup. Cheers!


Yes, the ms8 will run those components. I have my ms8 pushing my rear fill which consists of a couple component sets. Don't expect it to sound as good as if you had 50 watts going to them but it will work.


----------



## Ryanu

Golden Ear said:


> Yes, the ms8 will run those components. I have my ms8 pushing my rear fill which consists of a couple component sets. Don't expect it to sound as good as if you had 50 watts going to them but it will work.


Great! Thanks for the info Golden Ear. WIll definitely try and change the front component speakers.


----------



## axisadman

The MS8 is going for under £250 new in the UK! Its no longer on the JBL website that I can find so I guess its history? I've got one so I'm happy!


----------



## Ryanu

Successfully transferred the MS8 to my 2009 Toyota Corolla. Tried with center speaker but didn't really like the staging... very narrow. Is it supposed to sound that way? Anyway, I have disabled the center and only playing front stage, rear and subwoofer for now. And im blown away by the reproduced sound by using only oem china made speakers. Might need a little deadening to be done for the front doors though.

















Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## Ryanu

One question, I tapped the hi signal input from the rear channel. Will that be an issue?


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## tbomb

As long as its full range and no wierd processing then no


----------



## Ryanu

tbomb said:


> As long as its full range and no wierd processing then no


Noted and thanks for the clarifications.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


----------



## e=mc2

Can anyone offer me some advice?

I'm debating whether to use the MS-8 in my vehicle, but maybe I can get away with just an amplifier? I just want a a simple 2-way configuration up front and a single woofer on the rear shelf. The JBL MSA-1004 accepts line level, so this would suit well. Use Ch. 1 & 2 for the front stage, and bridge 3 & 4 for the single woofer in the back.

I'm just a little hesitant how it's going to sound using the OEM head unit. I am not interested in replacing it. ***There is a thread on another forum that explains how to bypass the OEM EQ curve to get a clean preamp signal. I guess as you turn up the volume on the OEM HU, the bass gets reduced or something. 

Anyways, I can't afford additional amplifiers if I purchase the MS-8. It's either high level with the MSA-1004 or MS8 route.


Thoughts?


----------



## quietfly

e=mc2 said:


> Can anyone offer me some advice?
> 
> I'm debating whether to use the MS-8 in my vehicle, but maybe I can get away with just an amplifier? I just want a a simple 2-way configuration up front and a single woofer on the rear shelf. The JBL MSA-1004 accepts line level, so this would suit well. Use Ch. 1 & 2 for the front stage, and bridge 3 & 4 for the single woofer in the back.
> 
> I'm just a little hesitant how it's going to sound using the OEM head unit. I am not interested in replacing it. ***There is a thread on another forum that explains how to bypass the OEM EQ curve to get a clean preamp signal. I guess as you turn up the volume on the OEM HU, the bass gets reduced or something.
> 
> Anyways, I can't afford additional amplifiers if I purchase the MS-8. It's either high level with the MSA-1004 or MS8 route.
> 
> 
> Thoughts?


 when you set up the MS-8 it will provide you signal for the msa1004, you can even use a "mixed mode" of external amps and MS-8 amplified channels. It (the ms-8) will clean the out the OEM eq curves and give you good signal for the msa1004, so long as you have Full range running into the high level in of the MS-8. for what you are describing the MS-8 should be plenty.


----------



## tbomb

e=mc2 said:


> I'm just a little hesitant how it's going to sound using the OEM head unit. I am not interested in replacing it. ***There is a thread on another forum that explains how to bypass the OEM EQ curve to get a clean preamp signal. I guess as you turn up the volume on the OEM HU, the bass gets reduced or something.
> 
> Anyways, I can't afford additional amplifiers if I purchase the MS-8. It's either high level with the MSA-1004 or MS8 route.
> 
> 
> Thoughts?


What car? My GTI does that. I tried 4 channel with hi inputs (b4 going with MS8)and it worked fine. With the MS amp you could add the "bass knob" to sorta compensate but it is a compromise. The Ms 8 makes a world of difference with soundstae though, and plenty of power for efficient speakers. A mono amp/2ch for sub duty is relatively cheap nowadays if "matching" isnt an issue. Im too OCD to mix brands but Im ridiculous that way.


----------



## elerner61

So after 2 years of running my MS-8 with 3-way fronts and a sub. I've decided I miss my midbass. I've revisited my system and re-configured it to the Kaigoss' setup. 

As I start to tune and find the sweet spot to cross the subs and midbass via the x-overs on the amp, the first annoyance I would like to get past (that the MS-8 previously seemed to take care of) is this; during voice audio such as DJ's talking when playing the radio, I'm getting annoying bass caused by when a person "breathes" onto a microphone. Any suggestions for how I can tune that out?

Thx.


----------



## MetricMuscle

Andy, I wonder if you might be able to solve a mystery for me.

I'd really love to remove the factory Pioneer amp under my passenger seat and replace it with my MS-8. This is in a '97 Lexus LS400 with the Pioneer premium sound.

Here is my issue. I'd like to keep the factory head unit and CD changer in the dash for now but there is some strange wiring between the HU, CD and amp.

There are 4 wires labeled-

CAP+
CAP-
HAP+
HAP-

CAP between CD and amp, HAP between head unit and amp.
Looking at the wiring diagram in my manual it shows that both of these are shielded by a signal shielding connection, SGND2 and SGND3 which means they are most likely source signal. Not sure why it needs it but doesn't really matter if we can simulate the signal to satisfy whatever wants to see it.

Is this some sort of feedback signal? Do I just need to send line level signal on these wires? Maybe I don't need to do anything with them?


----------



## kaigoss69

elerner61 said:


> So after 2 years of running my MS-8 with 3-way fronts and a sub. I've decided I miss my midbass. I've revisited my system and re-configured it to the Kaigoss' setup.
> 
> As I start to tune and find the sweet spot to cross the subs and midbass via the x-overs on the amp, the first annoyance I would like to get past (that the MS-8 previously seemed to take care of) is this; during voice audio such as DJ's talking when playing the radio, I'm getting annoying bass caused by when a person "breathes" onto a microphone. Any suggestions for how I can tune that out?
> 
> Thx.


Sounds like you need to turn down the gains. Do you have access to an RTA?


----------



## chuyler1

elerner61 said:


> So after 2 years of running my MS-8 with 3-way fronts and a sub. I've decided I miss my midbass. I've revisited my system and re-configured it to the Kaigoss' setup.


Can I get a link to the "Kaigoss setup"? This is a very long thread and I'm having trouble finding it. Perhaps we need a Wiki to describe the best practices for extracting the most out of this processor. 

I found the processor to work absolute wonders with my completely factory system. However, as soon as I started changing things it became painstaking to keep reconfiguring the input assignments to try different crossover points. I'm actually considering pulling it out, working through some options with a good ole' potentiometer crossover then transfering my findings back to the MS8. That seems to be the only way to quickly hear the difference between a 250Hz and 500Hz crossover point back to back.


----------



## subwoofery

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq.html 

Kelvin


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## chuyler1

Thanks, for some reason it was getting burried when i searched for ms8.


----------



## elerner61

kaigoss69 said:


> Sounds like you need to turn down the gains. Do you have access to an RTA?


The only one I have access to would be on an iDevice (iPhone, iPad). You are referring to the gains on my amp? I've "eyeballed" them to about 2volts. By having my gains set too high are you saying that peaky frequencies (such as bass/midbass) are more sensitive because the higher gain on the amp ramps them up more quickly?

Maybe a short tutorial on "why gain settings matter" would be useful for the MS-8 user community. It would be for me.

Part of my "rediscover midbass" effort is that I very much enjoy the stronger bass (as in bass guitar) that enriches so much music when you can actually hear/feel it. I am on my second Acura TSX (non MS-8 car) and they have done a fine job providing a good sounding OEM base audio system that delivers well balanced yet strong midbass.


----------



## chuyler1

I've had the same issue you are speaking about. Turn the subwoofer gain down and make sure when you calibrate the volume of the system isn't too high. Also try flipping the phase of the subwoofer.

If you don't have an RTA, setting the gains by ear should be fine. Turn off all processing and find some listening material that has bass lines that pass above and below your crossover point. I like to use upright bass. If the musician plucks a low note and it booms beyond the capability of the instrument then the sub gain is too high. If the notes fade away as the musician descends, it needs to be turned up.


----------



## e=mc2

tbomb said:


> What car? My GTI does that. I tried 4 channel with hi inputs (b4 going with MS8)and it worked fine. With the MS amp you could add the "bass knob" to sorta compensate but it is a compromise. The Ms 8 makes a world of difference with soundstae though, and plenty of power for efficient speakers. A mono amp/2ch for sub duty is relatively cheap nowadays if "matching" isnt an issue. Im too OCD to mix brands but Im ridiculous that way.


A Legacy.

I'll be using the MS-8. I tried sticking those Goldwood Poly 6"s in my doors from Parts Express. Door cards only left me an 1/8" room for excursion So if the Goldwoods are too deep, then so are the Silver Flutes & RS180's. I do not have the funds to purchase "car audio" speakers, so I picked up the RS150's and RS75's. I already own a set of Vifa tweeters, so we'll see how this sounds for a 3-way front stage.

I probably could have gotten away w/ a 2 way configuration, but I have all those channels to use! Rear fill is a no go for me. No center either.

I'll chime in once it's installed.


----------



## elerner61

chuyler1 said:


> I've had the same issue you are speaking about. Turn the subwoofer gain down and make sure when you calibrate the volume of the system isn't too high. Also try flipping the phase of the subwoofer.
> 
> If you don't have an RTA, setting the gains by ear should be fine. Turn off all processing and find some listening material that has bass lines that pass above and below your crossover point. I like to use upright bass. If the musician plucks a low note and it booms beyond the capability of the instrument then the sub gain is too high. If the notes fade away as the musician descends, it needs to be turned up.


Thanks for the suggestion. I am running Kaigoss so I am calibrating without the subs. I think I still need to recalibrate with my amp gains lower and see if that removes some of the "pops". I'll also calibrate at -40, I've been doing -35 up until now.

In your MS-8 tuning experience what are the symptoms of gains set too low and gains set too high?


----------



## chuyler1

Sometimes you get digital artifacts in the highs or abnormally boomy bass. If it doesn't come out awesome after calibration...keep trying.

If you have a smart phone, there are numerous RTA apps out there. They aren't super accurate but they will help you find some of the major issues in the system _before_ you run the calibration. You can check for gains set properly between various channels as well as speaker polarity. It is best to do this with the MS-8 not part of the signal path but if you can't do that, then just make sure all the tuning functions are turned off.

To set gains...play pink noise or sweeps through the system. Make sure the average levels for each speaker range are even. If you see a massive hump between 30-60Hz your sub is probably too high. Take samples from multiple locations to make sure you aren't just catching a resonance. 

To set polarity...play pink noise or sweeps through the system powering only two drivers at a time to start. If you can run them full range, do that. Otherwise use a 6db/octave crossover that is safe for the drivers. You want some overlap so it is easy to spot the cancellation. You don't need the volume any louder than conversation level. Compare the RTA output with drivers in phase, then out of phase (or what you think is out of phase). You are looking for a dip in response near the crossover point where the two drivers are canceling each other out. Identify the dip and use the opposite configuration.
Repeat for left and right 2 speakers at a time (highs/mids, mids/lows) then check left against right. Always looking for the configuration that produces the least amount of dips. Every car is different and if you're using non standard speaker locations you may need to get creative with polarities. The better you get it...the better the MS8 will do tuning it. With 24db/octave crossovers polarity isn't as important with highs as it is lows...but anything you can resolve beforehand will really help the MS8.

When you calibrate, it should be at conversation level. If your mids are causing the door panels to rattle during the sweeps you're way too loud. You just want the soft response of the speakers to be tuned, not the reflections of the sound off every panel and piece of glass. It doesn't take long to calibrate so try it in 5db increments and in between listen to a song that you know well and has all the key components you are looking for (bass line, vocals, acoustic instruments (trumpet, piano, etc). You could run through a 20db range for calibration in about 15 minutes and you'll know if you're heading in the right direction.

It seems like the subwoofer tuning is the biggest problem with the MS8. I'd say don't bother with it or tune it yourself afterward. A remote bass knob is great for this. My DLS amp has a knob that has polarity on it too...so I would just turn it way down for calibration then adjust it while listening to music until it was at a desired level.


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## kaigoss69

^^^ great advice. The problem with the phone mics is that they have built-in high-pass filters to reduce wind noise and this makes them almost unusable below 100Hz. Therefore, using test tones by ear is much more accurate at those frequencies.


----------



## elerner61

Thanks guys. Any reason to not use this tone generator app I found: Tinnitus Treatment Sound Therapy - Tone generator & Tuner | AudioNotch


----------



## chuyler1

I don't see an option for pink noise or quick sweeps of the full spectrum. That's what you need.


----------



## mmiller

chuyler1 said:


> I don't see an option for pink noise or quick sweeps of the full spectrum. That's what you need.


This^^^


----------



## altec

I want to buy another binaural microphone headset as a spare. Where can I get this?


----------



## Lord Raven

a lot of dollars were spent to find this later on.. fake, chinese battery


----------



## Ryanu

I think cr2032 is quite common. Dont think u will change em often anyway?

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## e=mc2

Well my OEM midwoofers are buzzing. I have searched high and low for a 6.5 driver that has less than 2.25" of depth, and the only thing that comes close is the Goldwood Poly 5. 

I'm not exactly thrilled replacing a 6.5" woofer with a 5" but I don't have much of a choice. You guys think it's worth it or should I head to the car dealership?

I already have a set of Vifa tweeters in the pillars so I'm not looking for a component set.


If anyone knows of a raw driver that will suit my application, please notify. SB is a no. HiVi is a no. SLS is a no. Silver Flute is a no. Rs180 and 150 are a no as well!


----------



## e=mc2

Well my OEM midwoofers are buzzing. I have searched high and low for a 6.5 driver that has less than 2.25" of depth, and the only thing that comes close is the Goldwood Poly 5. 

I'm not exactly thrilled replacing a 6.5" woofer with a 5" but I don't have much of a choice. You guys think it's worth it or should I head to the car dealership?

I already have a set of Vifa tweeters in the pillars so I'm not looking for a component set.


If anyone knows of a raw driver that will suit my application, please notify. SB is a no. HiVi is a no. SLS is a no. Silver Flute is a no. Rs180 and 150 are a no as well!


----------



## Golden Ear

e=mc2 said:


> Well my OEM midwoofers are buzzing. I have searched high and low for a 6.5 driver that has less than 2.25" of depth, and the only thing that comes close is the Goldwood Poly 5.
> 
> I'm not exactly thrilled replacing a 6.5" woofer with a 5" but I don't have much of a choice. You guys think it's worth it or should I head to the car dealership?
> 
> I already have a set of Vifa tweeters in the pillars so I'm not looking for a component set.
> 
> 
> If anyone knows of a raw driver that will suit my application, please notify. SB is a no. HiVi is a no. SLS is a no. Silver Flute is a no. Rs180 and 150 are a no as well!


This is the wrong thread for that question but have you looked at the Illusion Audio C6? It might be close. Also, what about making a spacer/baffle to allow for a deeper speaker?


----------



## Patrick Bateman

chuyler1 said:


> If you have a smart phone, there are numerous RTA apps out there. They aren't super accurate but they will help you find some of the major issues in the system _before_ you run the calibration.


The RTA apps for phones are actually very accurate, as long as you ignore all data in the bottom two octaves and the top octave.

From 100hz to 10khz, a phone RTA does a very nice job.

I've done easily a thousand measurements using various measurement apps, and the phone RTAs are nothing to scoff at.


----------



## subiemax

Does the MS8 present a load to the stock amplifier? I want to use a ms8 on a ford Focus with sony amp. Its said that the amp will not act right if it doesn't see a load.
Im sure this has been addressed, but damn this thread is long.


----------



## Ryanu

subiemax said:


> Does the MS8 present a load to the stock amplifier? I want to use a ms8 on a ford Focus with sony amp. Its said that the amp will not act right if it doesn't see a load.
> Im sure this has been addressed, but damn this thread is long.


Remove the amp if possible. Replace it with just the ms8.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## subiemax

Ryanu said:


> Remove the amp if possible. Replace it with just the ms8.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


Cant remove the amp.


----------



## MetricMuscle

subiemax said:


> Does the MS8 present a load to the stock amplifier? I want to use a ms8 on a ford Focus with sony amp. Its said that the amp will not act right if it doesn't see a load.
> Im sure this has been addressed, but damn this thread is long.


I'm sure it does, most amplifiers have high input impedance in the range of 12K ohm up to 22-24Kohm. Should be in the specs.


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## taibanl

e=mc2 said:


> One of you guys sell your MS8 and buy a bit one. I've been watching the classifieds and I dun see nothing!


Make offer?


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## fig32

Does anyone know if a new model of the MS-8 is coming out anytime soon? I am really torn between this, the Rockford Fosgate 360.3 and the Audison Bit 10. I know a main advantage is the auto tune capability and I find it a really attractive feature. Any help would be awesome, Thanks!


----------



## firebri

Not happening...guy who created it is no longer with JBL. Just get an MS-8. That's my next purchase when I pay off my Morel Hybrid 602's


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## david in germany

Yes, get the MS-8.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## fig32

Thanks. I have read a million threads here and currently using a mini-DSP and it is OK but needs the mini-DC to prevent the hiss I am hearing. I have been playing with various eq settings, have an RTA and mic set up on my PC and thought I would enjoy all the tweaking but I do not. I think I will pull the trigger and hopefully be all set. Thanks


----------



## Wy2quiet

Anyone have an issue with ringing? I tuned my system last night and I noticed that if I go to change tracks I can hear ringing right after the music stops for a second....I also notice it from loud parts to really soft parts in a song...sounds like a metallic ringing.


----------



## E Double

Crutchfield is showing the MS-8 as being discontinued. Is this true? If so, is JBL bringing out a new model?


----------



## troutspinner

*Back to the Basics*

I recently picked up a MS-8 for a steal and got it hooked up this week. I had a heck of a time tuning it. Yes the steps are easy but the way I achieved the best results were bypassing my amp and connecting my speakers directly to the high output of the MS-8. After the setup, I re-connected my amp and speakers and was in good shape.

The results of image and staging are really nice, I still had/have some EQ'ing to do due to a nasal vocal and boxiness sound. Personally, it is not the best my system has sounded but since I dumped the DNX691HD due to Sync interface issues, it's what I have to work with. It could also be the lousy signal my stock F150 radio is sending the MS-8.

For those of you asking about how high does the volume get when using just the MS-8. It's not bad. You're not going to run a sub from the MS-8, it just isn't powerful enough but if your goal is better sound and only want to replace 4 door speakers, it will do a nice job.

I'll live with this a few weeks and see if it grows on me, I have my doubts though. I may have to go back to a after-market HU and skip the Sync integration so stay tuned in the classifieds, a really cheap MS-8 could appear.  because I only paid $100 for it.


----------



## fig32

I saw that craigslist ad but you had already scooped it up. Nice job! I am not far from you and will take it off your hands for a fair price when/if you decide to get rid of it. I want this for one of my cars but would rather pick it up used. Cash money in person when you are ready. Have fun tweaking it. 

Mark


----------



## DLO13

I have an MS8 for sale. Used in my last build for about 5 months. 
Nearly perfect condition (small scratch on top).
I am working on replacing the signal cable that connects to the display - It was cut during uninstall.
PM Me with an offer.


----------



## troutspinner

fig32 said:


> I saw that craigslist ad but you had already scooped it up. Nice job! I am not far from you and will take it off your hands for a fair price when/if you decide to get rid of it. I want this for one of my cars but would rather pick it up used. Cash money in person when you are ready. Have fun tweaking it.
> 
> Mark


I will definitely PM you if I decide to let it go. Nice and easy and no paypal or shipping, I like that. But yeah, that was a hard CL ad to believe but low and behold, it was genuine.


----------



## fig32

It is great when we get lucky. You should have bought some lottery tickets the same day!


----------



## subwoofery

E Double said:


> Crutchfield is showing the MS-8 as being discontinued. Is this true? If so, is JBL bringing out a new model?


Please read a couple of post before yours and you'll find the answer to your question 

Kelvin


----------



## Cyber88

Hello i am newbie here,i want to get some adviced which one better between arc dsp8 or jbl ms-8 thank you


----------



## Darth SQ

Cyber88 said:


> Hello i am newbie here,i want to get some adviced which one better between arc dsp8 or jbl ms-8 thank you


388 pages of answers on the ms-8 at your fingertips. 
I chose the MS-8 for many reasons listed in this thread. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## trumpet

I can definitively say MS-8 is not discontinued.


----------



## Cyber88

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> 388 pages of answers on the ms-8 at your fingertips.
> I chose the MS-8 for many reasons listed in this thread.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Thank you for ur adviced,i will go buy ms 8 today


----------



## troutspinner

Cyber88 said:


> Thank you for ur adviced,i will go buy ms 8 today


The Arc is a different beast than the MS-8, it's a fully configurable DSP whereas the MS-8 is more of a guided tour where you answer a few prompts and then it tunes itself.

If you have a good understanding of crossovers, slopes and EQ and like to tinker, the Arc would be a better choice. If you just want a system that is easy to setup and sounds good enough, the MS-8 is for you.

Personally, I have since sold my MS-8 to another forum member here in favor of a DSP with more control.

troutspinner


----------



## plcrides

well i hope its not discontinued haha I'm getting one tomorrow.and then i get to read all 388 pages of this,i was under the impression that it auto tunes and then leaves you with the ability to tune a 31 band eq and if you screw up or don't like it just hit the back button,and it leaves you with a active set up for buying speakers in the future that aren't a passive x/over component set.the main reason i want it is I've been battling trying to get it to sound good on both sides,not just the driver's side with kick panel's and tweeter placement from hell!!!! ugh please help me ms-8


----------



## t3sn4f2

Cyber88 said:


> Hello i am newbie here,i want to get some adviced which one better between arc dsp8 or jbl ms-8 thank you





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If I could find more than 4 installers anywhere in the world who could actually tune a car to sound good, then auto-tune wouldn't be so important. Plenty of folks from other companies have tried (and so have I) to teach installers to make cars sound great, but there's just no way to make it possible for consumers to get the right experience predictably. I'd say that if you really want a useful evaluation of the value of any auto-tune, then the comparison shouldn't be between a car tuned by someone who knows how to do it and an auto-tune, but between an auto-tune and a car tuned by someone who has no clue.
> 
> In any case, I'm a damn good tuner and I can do a better job than MS-8 for ONE seat, but I have to have a hundred bands of parametric EQ, separate channels for every driver, time alignment and a fully adjustable logic-7 implementation, all pas filter capability, a microphone array a mic preamp with a multiplexer, A PC and two weeks. MS-8 does it in about 2 minutes.
> 
> I can't do what MS-8 does for both seats simultaneously no matter what equipment I have in less than a month.
> 
> Hmmm...maybe I don't know how to tune cars...



^^^^


----------



## kaigoss69

^^^^

I need to bookmark this post and re-read it every time I get the urge to get a "more powerful and user-friendly" processor.


----------



## troutspinner

plcrides said:


> well i hope its not discontinued haha I'm getting one tomorrow.and then i get to read all 388 pages of this,i was under the impression that it auto tunes and then leaves you with the ability to tune a 31 band eq and if you screw up or don't like it just hit the back button,and it leaves you with a active set up for buying speakers in the future that aren't a passive x/over component set.the main reason i want it is I've been battling trying to get it to sound good on both sides,not just the driver's side with kick panel's and tweeter placement from hell!!!! ugh please help me ms-8


Your impression is exactly correct and with your statement, I would say that it will probably make a pretty good fit for you. Some cars are harder to tune than others and I see this as the real benefactor of the MS-8.


----------



## MetricMuscle

This may have been covered on one of the previous 387 pages but....

Does MS-8 delay a channel the same amount over the entire frequency range?

For example, if on one channel I had a 6.5" mid in the lower part of my door and a tweeter up higher, the path length is greater for the mid so there would be more delay needed for the tweeter frequencies. 

If MS-8 delays the entire channel the same then the tweeter would get the same TA as the mid.


----------



## troutspinner

MetricMuscle said:


> This may have been covered on one of the previous 387 pages but....
> 
> Does MS-8 delay a channel the same amount over the entire frequency range?
> 
> For example, if on one channel I had a 6.5" mid in the lower part of my door and a tweeter up higher, the path length is greater for the mid so there would be more delay needed for the tweeter frequencies.
> 
> If MS-8 delays the entire channel the same then the tweeter would get the same TA as the mid.


In a passive situation (if you used a crossover between your comp and tweeter) then those two will be on a single channel. Otherwise, without a crossover, they will be on separate channels and will be controlled individually.


----------



## rcurley55

MetricMuscle said:


> This may have been covered on one of the previous 387 pages but....
> 
> Does MS-8 delay a channel the same amount over the entire frequency range?
> 
> For example, if on one channel I had a 6.5" mid in the lower part of my door and a tweeter up higher, the path length is greater for the mid so there would be more delay needed for the tweeter frequencies.
> 
> If MS-8 delays the entire channel the same then the tweeter would get the same TA as the mid.


The TA gets applied uniformly across whatever frequency range is being played by the channel. If you are using a passive setup with a tweeter and a midrange on the same channel, you can cover the tweeter during the first set of sweeps (which determines the TA). Then uncover the tweeter for the remaining sweeps. This will cause the MS-8 to TA that channel according to the midrange placement (which is more important than having it TA the tweeters).


----------



## Golden Ear

Aren't the tweeter and mid separate channels on the ms-8? Mine are.


----------



## Darth SQ

Golden Ear said:


> Aren't the tweeter and mid separate channels on the ms-8? Mine are.


If you can fit them in.
There's only 8 outputs and they fill up fast.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## MetricMuscle

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> If you can fit them in.
> There's only 8 outputs and they fill up fast.


^^This^^

Don't we all really need an MS-12 or so?

6 for front tweeter/mid/midbass
4 for rear mid/midbass
1 for center channel
1 for subwoofer

How realistic would it be to use the MS-8 for everything except the subwoofer-

6 for front tweeter/mid/midbass
2 for rear coaxial

Then use an amplifier with built in DSP, like the Zapco DC 500.1, to power and time align the subwoofer. MS-8 is kinda infamous for cutting out too much bass, even work arounds have been developed to tune it with the sub off and then bring it back in once it has been set, ala Kaigoss mod.

What about keeping the entire subwoofer section separate and dialing in the TA independently. The Zapco looks to have a pretty indepth tuning package via laptop. This would have to be done by ear but that might be a good thing.


----------



## tbomb

channel 8 is always assigned to sub


----------



## kaigoss69

tbomb said:


> channel 8 is always assigned to sub



No it is not.


----------



## alachua

So, there are a few ways to maximize the MS8's 'limited' outputs with minimal effect on your system.

In a hypothetical 3 way front + rear + sub configuration you would most likely run this:

Output: Speakers
1 + 2 L/R Tweeters
3 + 4 L/R Mids
5 + 6 L/R Midbass -> spliter or amp output -> sub(s)
7 + 8 L/R Sides (-> splitter or amp output -> rears)

This incorporates the Kaigoss mod and will not sacrifice any time alignment as the MS8 does not align the sub. Andy said many times that the difference between 5.1 and 7.1 is very very minimal and not worth fretting over.

Now, if you want to go 3 way + Center + Rears + sub configuration you will need to make a small compromise.

Output: Speakers
1 + 2 L/R Tweeters -> splitter/amp output/4ch amp with HP cross over/external xover -> L/R Mids
3 + 4 L/R Midbass (-> spliter or amp output -> sub(s))
5 + 6 L/R Sides (-> splitter or amp output -> rears)
7 + 8 Center Tweeter + Center mid / Center (full range) + Sub

As long as you keep your tweeters and mids fairly close together and on the same plane, the loss of time alignment on the tweeters should have a minimal affect on the sound. Andy commented many times that for people using passive x-overs to simply cover the tweeter during the TA sweep as the most important part was the alignment of the mid range speakers. This configuration allows you to choose to engage the Kaigoss mod depending on your installation configuration and the results the auto-tune provides.

You can derive any simpler setup from these two basic configurations, removing the channels you elect not to use and moving the drivers that would be combined to discrete channels.


----------



## MetricMuscle

Ok, so...

- The midrange frequencies are the most important to time align.
- MS-8 does not apply any time alignment to a channel specified as "sub woofer".
- MS-8 will time align a tweeter but it is not as critical to do so.

Is there a specific frequency range which is the most important? Like 300Hz to say 3000Hz ?

Why are the subwoofer frequencies not important or is it that MS-8 can't pick up sub frequencies with the provided headset mics?

Signal from head unit goes to MS-8 input and Sub amplifier input.

MS-8 Output: Speakers
1 + 2 L/R Tweeters
3 + 4 L/R Mids
5 + 6 L/R Midbass
7 + 8 L/R Rears

Sub amplifier output to just subwoofer.


----------



## big_harv

Andy -- I guess you have moved on to bigger and better things but I was hoping you would be able to help me with the problems I am having. 

I installed the MS-8 into my 2012 F-150 with the "Premium" Sony sound system with navigation. I spliced the front left and right mids and tweeters as well as the sub speaker wires and am feeding these into the ms-8 hi-level inputs. My CD came without the sound file so I am using the sound file on my USB media player to calibrate the unit. Every time I calibrate I am getting a very bad clipped signal on the tweeters. I have run the calibration at /neutral settings/ MAX treble MIN bass / MAX bass MIN treble/ the best results are with MAX treble and MIN bass but the signal is still being clipped i.e. scratchy tweeters. When I run the calibration at neutral I pretty much have to turn my head unit volume up 3/4 of its max volume to get it to pass OK OK OK. With the MAX treble MIN bass calibration I only turn the head unit up to about half way. The bass has never been an issue and sounds great after calibration and my problems are always with a clipped tweeter that sounds popping or scratchy. I experimented and tried skipping the input calibration and the tweeters sounded just fine, but the bass was basically empty even with amp gains pushed hard. I am at a loss.

I was wondering if you had any experience or knowledge about problems with the F-150 sony amplified head unit and the symptoms I described and if there is any way to get the unit to work with it. I have spent hours and hours trying to calibrate the unit with different settings and am just about ready to send the thing back for a basic signal summing device. 

My complete setup is as follows.
2012 F-150 with Sony & Navigation

Hi-Level Inputs from FL Tweeter(In 1) FL Mid(In 2) - FR Tweeter(In 3) FR Mid(In 4) - Subwoofer(In 8)

Line Level Outputs from Ch 5(FL) Ch6(FR) Ch8(Sub1) to Phoenix Gold Ti21600.5

I am running passive components up front JL Audio C5-570 and a ID8V3 sub.


----------



## subwoofery

MetricMuscle said:


> Ok, so...
> 
> - The midrange frequencies are the most important to time align.
> - MS-8 does not apply any time alignment to a channel specified as "sub woofer".
> - MS-8 will time align a tweeter but it is not as critical to do so.
> 
> Is there a specific frequency range which is the most important? Like 300Hz to say 3000Hz ?
> 
> *Why are the subwoofer frequencies not important or is it that MS-8 can't pick up sub frequencies with the provided headset mics?*
> 
> Signal from head unit goes to MS-8 input and Sub amplifier input.
> 
> MS-8 Output: Speakers
> 1 + 2 L/R Tweeters
> 3 + 4 L/R Mids
> 5 + 6 L/R Midbass
> 7 + 8 L/R Rears
> 
> Sub amplifier output to just subwoofer.


Freq important for T/A: below about 2kHz

Sub frequencies are longer than the car 
The MS-8 has no need to use T/A on the subwoofer - it can keep the upfront bass illusion with just EQ 

Kelvin


----------



## tbomb

kaigoss69 said:


> No it is not.



I cant seem to stop thinking that. I have said it several times and get corrected each time. Even after i posted that I thought..."wait, is that right?"

For some reason its stuck in my head that channel 8 is sub with option of 7 being also.


----------



## kaigoss69

tbomb said:


> I cant seem to stop thinking that. I have said it several times and get corrected each time. Even after i posted that I thought..."wait, is that right?"
> 
> For some reason its stuck in my head that channel 8 is sub with option of 7 being also.


On the input side, it is recommended to use input 8 if you have a single OEM sub signal, or 7&8 if you have two OEM sub signals. It is not necessary, however, because the only thing you need to look out for is that the sub input comes after the high frequencies. This is because during input set-up, the processor will stop looking for more inputs once the sub signal is located. So if the sub input was on channel 1, and the mids/tweets on 2&3, it would only take input 1.


----------



## t3sn4f2

big_harv said:


> Andy -- I guess you have moved on to bigger and better things but I was hoping you would be able to help me with the problems I am having.
> 
> I installed the MS-8 into my 2012 F-150 with the "Premium" Sony sound system with navigation. I spliced the front left and right mids and tweeters as well as the sub speaker wires and am feeding these into the ms-8 hi-level inputs. My CD came without the sound file so I am using the sound file on my USB media player to calibrate the unit. Every time I calibrate I am getting a very bad clipped signal on the tweeters. I have run the calibration at /neutral settings/ MAX treble MIN bass / MAX bass MIN treble/ the best results are with MAX treble and MIN bass but the signal is still being clipped i.e. scratchy tweeters. When I run the calibration at neutral I pretty much have to turn my head unit volume up 3/4 of its max volume to get it to pass OK OK OK. With the MAX treble MIN bass calibration I only turn the head unit up to about half way. The bass has never been an issue and sounds great after calibration and my problems are always with a clipped tweeter that sounds popping or scratchy. I experimented and tried skipping the input calibration and the tweeters sounded just fine, but the bass was basically empty even with amp gains pushed hard. I am at a loss.
> 
> I was wondering if you had any experience or knowledge about problems with the F-150 sony amplified head unit and the symptoms I described and if there is any way to get the unit to work with it. I have spent hours and hours trying to calibrate the unit with different settings and am just about ready to send the thing back for a basic signal summing device.
> 
> My complete setup is as follows.
> 2012 F-150 with Sony & Navigation
> 
> Hi-Level Inputs from FL Tweeter(In 1) FL Mid(In 2) - FR Tweeter(In 3) FR Mid(In 4) - Subwoofer(In 8)
> 
> Line Level Outputs from Ch 5(FL) Ch6(FR) Ch8(Sub1) to Phoenix Gold Ti21600.5
> 
> I am running passive components up front JL Audio C5-570 and a ID8V3 sub.


Andy mentioned he is no longer providing support for JBL/Infinity products.


----------



## tbomb

big_harv said:


> Andy -- I guess you have moved on to bigger and better things but I was hoping you would be able to help me with the problems I am having.
> 
> I installed the MS-8 into my 2012 F-150 with the "Premium" Sony sound system with navigation. I spliced the front left and right mids and tweeters as well as the sub speaker wires and am feeding these into the ms-8 hi-level inputs. My CD came without the sound file so I am using the sound file on my USB media player to calibrate the unit. Every time I calibrate I am getting a very bad clipped signal on the tweeters. I have run the calibration at /neutral settings/ MAX treble MIN bass / MAX bass MIN treble/ the best results are with MAX treble and MIN bass but the signal is still being clipped i.e. scratchy tweeters. When I run the calibration at neutral I pretty much have to turn my head unit volume up 3/4 of its max volume to get it to pass OK OK OK. With the MAX treble MIN bass calibration I only turn the head unit up to about half way. The bass has never been an issue and sounds great after calibration and my problems are always with a clipped tweeter that sounds popping or scratchy. I experimented and tried skipping the input calibration and the tweeters sounded just fine, but the bass was basically empty even with amp gains pushed hard. I am at a loss.
> 
> I was wondering if you had any experience or knowledge about problems with the F-150 sony amplified head unit and the symptoms I described and if there is any way to get the unit to work with it. I have spent hours and hours trying to calibrate the unit with different settings and am just about ready to send the thing back for a basic signal summing device.
> 
> My complete setup is as follows.
> 2012 F-150 with Sony & Navigation
> 
> Hi-Level Inputs from FL Tweeter(In 1) FL Mid(In 2) - FR Tweeter(In 3) FR Mid(In 4) - Subwoofer(In 8)
> 
> Line Level Outputs from Ch 5(FL) Ch6(FR) Ch8(Sub1) to Phoenix Gold Ti21600.5
> 
> I am running passive components up front JL Audio C5-570 and a ID8V3 sub.


First i would stop trying to outsmart the ms8 with the tone controls. Leave everything even/off like themanual/andy says. if you think you hear clipping, either gains are not set correctly on your outboard amp or you are calibrating at too low a volume on ms8....or both.

I would try recalibrating with gains almost all the way down and ms8 volume around 25-30. I wouldnt think the use of media player would be an issue but maybe make a cd of wav file.

Also, why not take advantage of having 4 channels of amplification and run your comps active? i imagine the distance from mid to tweeter is pretty big in that truck, so use the ms8 for all its worth. if yoy decide not to, did you at least do Andys trick/tip of covering tweeters during first sweep?



So i just looked up your amp and comps. i believe in headroom but you could easiky be over powering your comps. they are rated at 75watts/side and i am assuming you are running them bridged which is well over that.


----------



## Carbon Legend

i bought a new MS-8 from Sonix. I got everything wired up correctly. Disconnected ANC. Remote IN from 12v ACC. Remote out to Factory Amp, Sub Amp, Components Amp. plug in the display and it loads up select language screen. I try to use my remote to select english but i get no response from none of the buttons. I called JBL and ordered a new remote and im still having the same issue. I have tried to use the reset button on the MS-8 as well as on the back of the display unit.


----------



## plcrides

well here i am trout spinner on page 389 haha i got mine today.the big brown truck dropped it off.so i get to sit here and study it for a few weeks until i can afford to get a 4 channel amp and a few other things and then i will be ready for install time.


----------



## MetricMuscle

Carbon Legend said:


> i bought a new MS-8 from Sonix. I got everything wired up correctly. Disconnected ANC. Remote IN from 12v ACC. Remote out to Factory Amp, Sub Amp, Components Amp. plug in the display and it loads up select language screen. I try to use my remote to select english but i get no response from none of the buttons. I called JBL and ordered a new remote and im still having the same issue. I have tried to use the reset button on the MS-8 as well as on the back of the display unit.


Didya put batteries in the remote?


----------



## IbizaOnAcid

MetricMuscle said:


> Didya put batteries in the remote?


Ditto!


----------



## big_harv

tbomb said:


> First i would stop trying to outsmart the ms8 with the tone controls. Leave everything even/off like themanual/andy says. if you think you hear clipping, either gains are not set correctly on your outboard amp or you are calibrating at too low a volume on ms8....or both.
> 
> I would try recalibrating with gains almost all the way down and ms8 volume around 25-30. I wouldnt think the use of media player would be an issue but maybe make a cd of wav file.
> 
> Also, why not take advantage of having 4 channels of amplification and run your comps active? i imagine the distance from mid to tweeter is pretty big in that truck, so use the ms8 for all its worth. if yoy decide not to, did you at least do Andys trick/tip of covering tweeters during first sweep?
> 
> 
> 
> So i just looked up your amp and comps. i believe in headroom but you could easiky be over powering your comps. they are rated at 75watts/side and i am assuming you are running them bridged which is well over that.


Thanks for the reply. I will say that I have tried the calibration probably over 200 times and most of those were with the neutral settings, amp gains at 0 and -20dB volume. 

I wasn't really interested in running active as I had plans to upgrade rear speakers too. I havent tried the trick of covering the tweeters as I believe the problem is in the input (de-EQ) not the output EQ. I have skipped the input setup all together as if I had line level inputs and I get very clean signal but the signal is only playing out of the right side and I have nothing out of the left. This could be because I have 4 inputs (tweeters and mids) and its only picking up 2 of the 4. I just don't know, but the sound quality is clean.

I did want headroom on the amp in case I decided to upgrade any speakers later and I am not running the speakers bridged.

I'm going to be returning the MS-8 because I would honestly rather listen to the stock system as bad as it was than listen to what the MS-8 is trying to do. I really wish I could get it to work because I do believe it would be a great improvement but I now believe it is not compatible with my truck.


----------



## MetricMuscle

big_harv said:


> Thanks for the reply. I will say that I have tried the calibration probably over 200 times and most of those were with the neutral settings, amp gains at 0 and -20dB volume.
> 
> I wasn't really interested in running active as I had plans to upgrade rear speakers too. I havent tried the trick of covering the tweeters as I believe the problem is in the input (de-EQ) not the output EQ. I have skipped the input setup all together as if I had line level inputs and I get very clean signal but the signal is only playing out of the right side and I have nothing out of the left. This could be because I have 4 inputs (tweeters and mids) and its only picking up 2 of the 4. I just don't know, but the sound quality is clean.
> 
> I did want headroom on the amp in case I decided to upgrade any speakers later and I am not running the speakers bridged.
> 
> I'm going to be returning the MS-8 because I would honestly rather listen to the stock system as bad as it was than listen to what the MS-8 is trying to do. I really wish I could get it to work because I do believe it would be a great improvement but I now believe it is not compatible with my truck.


What input channels are you using for the tweeters and which for the mids?

What frequency range is the tweeter input?
What frequency range is the mid input?

I also have an unrelated question for experienced MS-8 users.
It says to use either the RCA output *OR* the amplified output for each given channel but *NOT BOTH*.

Why is this?
Are both not making output at the same time?
Is it so as not to try and time align two different speakers on the same channel which may not be equidistant from the listener?

It occurred to me my rear speakers are about the same distance from my listening position as my subwoofer is. If I used the amplified output of say channels 7 & 8 for my rear speakers *AND* the RCA output for my separate sub amplifier I could be winning with tiger blood. Sub T/A is less important than mid/high and would be close enough to the rears anyway.


----------



## e=mc2

MetricMuscle said:


> Didya put batteries in the remote?


And if you're too lazy to pop open the remote, just aim your remote at your smart phone camera and see if the ir led is lit up

of course you'll have to hold a button down while you're doing this


----------



## tbomb

big_harv said:


> Thanks for the reply. I will say that I have tried the calibration probably over 200 times and most of those were with the neutral settings, amp gains at 0 and -20dB volume.
> 
> I wasn't really interested in running active as I had plans to upgrade rear speakers too. I havent tried the trick of covering the tweeters as I believe the problem is in the input (de-EQ) not the output EQ. I have skipped the input setup all together as if I had line level inputs and I get very clean signal but the signal is only playing out of the right side and I have nothing out of the left. This could be because I have 4 inputs (tweeters and mids) and its only picking up 2 of the 4. I just don't know, but the sound quality is clean.
> 
> I did want headroom on the amp in case I decided to upgrade any speakers later and I am not running the speakers bridged.
> 
> I'm going to be returning the MS-8 because I would honestly rather listen to the stock system as bad as it was than listen to what the MS-8 is trying to do. I really wish I could get it to work because I do believe it would be a great improvement but I now believe it is not compatible with my truck.


It has to be how you are setting it up.. you CAN NOT skip the setup portion if using HL inputs! Are you positive on the wiring of inputs? I wouldnt give up. There is clearly something wrong with the installation. Are you coming from the HU to ms8 or from the sony amp to ms8? I have a feeling you are coming from the amp. Also, if HU puts out a very high quality signal, you may need to set volume around 35-40 during setup, same as if it were an "aftermarket" deck.


----------



## Ryanu

tbomb said:


> It has to be how you are setting it up.. you CAN NOT skip the setup portion if using HL inputs! Are you positive on the wiring of inputs? I wouldnt give up. There is clearly something wrong with the installation. Are you coming from the HU to ms8 or from the sony amp to ms8? I have a feeling you are coming from the amp. Also, if HU puts out a very high quality signal, you may need to set volume around 35-40 during setup, same as if it were an "aftermarket" deck.


+1 
MS8 isn't supposed to sound that bad unless it is being set up incorrectly. 

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


----------



## plcrides

oh boy,i just can't wait to get started hooking mine up.haha I've been reading the manual and it seems pretty straight forward for stock radio do this,for aftermarket do that.hmm


----------



## acaciolo

My eyes are bleeding from how much of this thread I read! great info.

As a forum newbie, I found this post when trying to figure out why my new system had no midbass. The "select no sub" workaround solved my problem, but I wanted to see if the way I am doing it will cause any other issues.

I've got a pioneer nex8000 using the L/R rca outputs to the ms8. the ms8 then send the signal to an alpine f4 and f9 amp. the front is phd active 6" components. sub is jL w3 10" Infinity rear fill 4" far back in the rear of this FJ cruiser. 

I level matched, verified polarity, etc..but still had no midbass. when I took out the sub, that did the trick. But I did it differently than suggested, and not knowing enough about how the ms8 processes the signal, I am not sure if this is right.

Rather than using the amp crossover, I used the sub out on the head unit. So my high/low pass is set in the pioneer now. I am feeding the l/r to the ms8 but it is only getting above 80hz now. Below 80hz is going directly from the head unit to the amp to the sub.

is there any problem with calibrating the ms8 as "full range" for the front active components and then using the head unit to crossover the sub signal rather than the amp? 

the downside is that the volume on the ms8 doesn't impact the sub (but I set that once and forget it.) 

thanks..and sorry if this is a stupid question. go easy on me...

tony c


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

Tony,

The MS-8 adds about ~7ms delay between the input signal and the output signal, so that might impact the way that your vehicle sounds. 

...but if it sounds good to you, then our opinions really don't matter now, do they?


----------



## Ryanu

acaciolo said:


> My eyes are bleeding from how much of this thread I read! great info.
> 
> As a forum newbie, I found this post when trying to figure out why my new system had no midbass. The "select no sub" workaround solved my problem, but I wanted to see if the way I am doing it will cause any other issues.
> 
> I've got a pioneer nex8000 using the L/R rca outputs to the ms8. the ms8 then send the signal to an alpine f4 and f9 amp. the front is phd active 6" components. sub is jL w3 10" Infinity rear fill 4" far back in the rear of this FJ cruiser.
> 
> I level matched, verified polarity, etc..but still had no midbass. when I took out the sub, that did the trick. But I did it differently than suggested, and not knowing enough about how the ms8 processes the signal, I am not sure if this is right.
> 
> Rather than using the amp crossover, I used the sub out on the head unit. So my high/low pass is set in the pioneer now. I am feeding the l/r to the ms8 but it is only getting above 80hz now. Below 80hz is going directly from the head unit to the amp to the sub.
> 
> is there any problem with calibrating the ms8 as "full range" for the front active components and then using the head unit to crossover the sub signal rather than the amp?
> 
> the downside is that the volume on the ms8 doesn't impact the sub (but I set that once and forget it.)
> 
> thanks..and sorry if this is a stupid question. go easy on me...
> 
> tony c


Well.. my opinion will be.. why complicate things when it supposed to simplify ur life. Again.. if the sound is right for you then others shouldn't matter. Just my 2 cents. Peace! 

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


----------



## e=mc2

Will my remote still signal to my display if my display is underneath the seat I'm sitting on?

How to change source? From CD to AUX ...the aux that's on the ms8

Thnx


----------



## tbomb

e=mc2 said:


> Will my remote still signal to my display if my display is underneath the seat I'm sitting on?
> 
> How to change source? From CD to AUX ...the aux that's on the ms8
> 
> Thnx


yes, but how do you know what you are adjusting? Why would you put the display out of site....you might as well not even have it in car. At least Velcro it to front of seat or so you can access it when needed.

The input selection screen is how you switch to the aux.


----------



## plcrides

lmao omg at first glimpse i thought he was talking about the ms-8 itself not the display mounted under his seat.lol because i was wondering the same thing do you aim the remote at the display screen or at the ms-8 haha damn,i missed that one.


----------



## e=mc2

tbomb said:


> yes, but how do you know what you are adjusting? Why would you put the display out of site....you might as well not even have it in car. At least Velcro it to front of seat or so you can access it when needed.
> 
> The input selection screen is how you switch to the aux.


Will I ever need access to it?

I just want to tune it and forget about it. I thought you really only needed the lcd screen when u were tuning.


It will be left in aux mode forever


----------



## The real Subzero

Can the ms8 support a Hi-Volt (6.5V), 100 ohm preout?


----------



## peleincubus

peleincubus said:


> So I got a nissan 370z recently. And would like to keep the oem head unit and also upgrade to some nice hertz components and a good sq sub/amp.
> 
> What I'm curious about is if I get the ms8 will my other "high quality" parts of the system suffer? Meaning is the ms8 essentially like having a after market head unit?
> 
> I just don't want to spend good money on speakers etc and be at a disadvantage with the factory head unit.


can anyone please answer this for me. i can clarify some things if it doesnt make sense.


----------



## Big T

Does it have a premium system now


----------



## peleincubus

Big T said:


> Does it have a premium system now


No thankfully I have the base system. Not the Bose


----------



## t3sn4f2

The real Subzero said:


> Can the ms8 support a Hi-Volt (6.5V), 100 ohm preout?


"Max input voltage" for the RCA inputs is 2.8 volts RMS. 6.5 volts is fine, just don't turn the head unit volume to that point. 

All devices that have master volume control typically have a range of ~80dB of attenuation, be it a display representation of 0-35, 0-52, 0-10. It's all just numbers/symbol representing that 80 decibel range. The dB difference between 2.8 and 6.5 volts is only 7 dB (think LOG volume scale not linear).

dB dBu dBFS dBV to volts audio conversion digital - calculator volt to dBu and dBV dB mW SPL dB decibels 0 dBFS - convert dB volt normal decibels relatioship relation explanation analog audio absolute level true rms convertor converter decibel to dbf

So you still have ~73dB of master volume range to use in your head unit. That's more than enough and it just means that the music will get louder just a little lower on the volume setting. It's actually an advantage since you'll be able to use that extra "gain" from the head unit for recordings with lower than average recording levels or those that are too dynamic and you need to dynamically compress the peaks a bit by over driving the ms-8 inputs into clipping (of which the degradation is inaudible). We do that with even 2 volts head units, it just better to have excess gain to do it since your max functional unclipped output will be at a higher level and that helps with signal to noise levels.

Also have you measured that claimed output voltage? Because most of the time it does not get to that point except for at a specific frequency that is being boosted by the head unit. Nominal full bandwidth output voltage at say 3/4 max head unit volume will probably and most of the times is under the MS-8 max input limit.


----------



## The real Subzero

I don't remember. It has been a couple years since I scoped it.
I will try to redo the input setting and set amp gains accordingly. If I can find an Oscope. 



t3sn4f2 said:


> "Max input voltage" for the RCA inputs is 2.8 volts RMS. 6.5 volts is fine, just don't turn the head unit volume to that point.
> 
> All devices that have master volume control typically have a range of ~80dB of attenuation, be it a display representation of 0-35, 0-52, 0-10. It's all just numbers/symbol representing that 80 decibel range. The dB difference between 2.8 and 6.5 volts is only 7 dB (think LOG volume scale not linear).
> 
> dB dBu dBFS dBV to volts audio conversion digital - calculator volt to dBu and dBV dB mW SPL dB decibels 0 dBFS - convert dB volt normal decibels relatioship relation explanation analog audio absolute level true rms convertor converter decibel to dbf
> 
> So you still have ~73dB of master volume range to use in your head unit. That's more than enough and it just means that the music will get louder just a little lower on the volume setting. It's actually an advantage since you'll be able to use that extra "gain" from the head unit for recordings with lower than average recording levels or those that are too dynamic and you need to dynamically compress the peaks a bit by over driving the ms-8 inputs into clipping (of which the degradation is inaudible). We do that with even 2 volts head units, it just better to have excess gain to do it since your max functional unclipped output will be at a higher level and that helps with signal to noise levels.
> 
> Also have you measured that claimed output voltage? Because most of the time it does not get to that point except for at a specific frequency that is being boosted by the head unit. Nominal full bandwidth output voltage at say 3/4 max head unit volume will probably and most of the times is under the MS-8 max input limit.


----------



## bradknob

Whats up gentlemen,

Got one for you...


Ive read through at least 200 pages of this thread while waiting for my ms-8 to arrive. I do not recall hearing any issues like mine. I was rushing to get it done while I still had sunlight so I have a few ideas what may be happening but i wanted to see if anyone had a little insight to ease my pain.

First off, My set up is 3 way front and a sub. no rears or sides. Tweets are running off ms-8 internal amp while mids, low mids, and sub are amped off JBLs MS series amps


Once installed, the issue im having is that on initial turn on i can hear a whistle sound like a bomb falling, then disappears. Coming from left tweeter only. A fter continuing calibration, all the music is coming from the driver side tweeter and is full of static.


Like i said i rushed so my install is a mess and has wires over wires so the whine i can prob find pretty easily.

My concern is sound only from 1 tweeter. I can see if the channel is bad by moving everything over one channel since i have 1 unused. If thats the case why would there be no sound from any other speakers?

I read about the headphnes staying plugged in afterwards so i made sure to remove them.

I also am not sure if i have headunit on full pass.




Any ideas or suggestions?




Thanks!!


----------



## e=mc2

Matter if I run just mids in the back or coaxials?


----------



## plcrides

bradknob said:


> Whats up gentlemen,
> 
> Got one for you...
> 
> 
> Ive read through at least 200 pages of this thread while waiting for my ms-8 to arrive. I do not recall hearing any issues like mine. I was rushing to get it done while I still had sunlight so I have a few ideas what may be happening but i wanted to see if anyone had a little insight to ease my pain.
> 
> First off, My set up is 3 way front and a sub. no rears or sides. Tweets are running off ms-8 internal amp while mids, low mids, and sub are amped off JBLs MS series amps
> 
> 
> Once installed, the issue im having is that on initial turn on i can hear a whistle sound like a bomb falling, then disappears. Coming from left tweeter only. A fter continuing calibration, all the music is coming from the driver side tweeter and is full of static.
> 
> 
> Like i said i rushed so my install is a mess and has wires over wires so the whine i can prob find pretty easily.
> 
> My concern is sound only from 1 tweeter. I can see if the channel is bad by moving everything over one channel since i have 1 unused. If thats the case why would there be no sound from any other speakers?
> 
> I read about the headphnes staying plugged in afterwards so i made sure to remove them.
> 
> I also am not sure if i have headunit on full pass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any ideas or suggestions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!!



i bought mine a few weeks ago and I'm waiting to get a 4 channel amp hopefully this week then I'm going to install mine.i went to the online manual its a lot better,theirs like 40 pages of detailed directions and a trouble shooting section too,seems like i read if the volume is up too high other than a normal conversation talking level it would cause these noises your hearing,not sure,other than that it says to get tech support,which is what I'm going to do right off the bat.hope you get it tuned.


----------



## KenNorton

I've been running MS8 for 2 years in my 2-way system and happy with it.
Last 2 week, there is no sound from the tweeter. Try to swap the RCA-out, the mid-bass gone and tweeter on (of course in very small volume). 

The pre-amp seems to fail. The repair workshop confirm this but they cannot find the part. The P/N is not showing at the board. It is 8x2 pin. I cannot provide the picture at moment since the unit is still at the repair shop.

Can anybody help me to get the P/N of pre-amp IC for MS8?


----------



## plcrides

i have a brand new in the box ms-8 sitting right beside me,you need which part number?the pre amp IC ???


----------



## KenNorton

plcrides said:


> i have a brand new in the box ms-8 sitting right beside me,you need which part number?the pre amp IC ???


Yes, desperately. I need the preamp IC part number.
The repair shop said, the P/N is wiped out from the IC.


----------



## ansuser

KenNorton said:


> I've been running MS8 for 2 years in my 2-way system and happy with it.
> Last 2 week, there is no sound from the tweeter. Try to swap the RCA-out, the mid-bass gone and tweeter on (of course in very small volume).
> 
> The pre-amp seems to fail. The repair workshop confirm this but they cannot find the part. The P/N is not showing at the board. It is 8x2 pin. I cannot provide the picture at moment since the unit is still at the repair shop.
> 
> Can anybody help me to get the P/N of pre-amp IC for MS8?


OP amps at the output are TS974IPT.


----------



## KenNorton

ansuser said:


> OP amps at the output are TS974IPT.


wonderful!
I google search and it is 14 pins not 16. I will double check with the repair shop.
Thanks a lot.

Thanks also to t3sn4f2 for your great help. :angel:


----------



## ansuser

KenNorton said:


> wonderful!
> I google search and it is 14 pins not 16. I will double check with the repair shop.
> Thanks a lot.
> 
> Thanks also to t3sn4f2 for your great help. :angel:


Output opamps are what I said.

Input opamps are TL074ID SOIC-14.

I've got service manual , so I'm sure.


----------



## KenNorton

ansuser said:


> Output opamps are what I said.
> 
> Input opamps are TL074ID SOIC-14.
> 
> I've got service manual , so I'm sure.


Yes, you're right. the repair shop revise that it is 14 pins.
Still, he cannot find locally. I have to buy it on-line.
about 3-4 weeks without MS8


----------



## ansuser

KenNorton said:


> Yes, you're right. the repair shop revise that it is 14 pins.
> Still, he cannot find locally. I have to buy it on-line.
> about 3-4 weeks without MS8


There is a better replacement for input opamp (4134)

Ouptut can probably be replaced with LME49743, but you need to check power requirements first


----------



## bradknob

plcrides said:


> i bought mine a few weeks ago and I'm waiting to get a 4 channel amp hopefully this week then I'm going to install mine.i went to the online manual its a lot better,theirs like 40 pages of detailed directions and a trouble shooting section too,seems like i read if the volume is up too high other than a normal conversation talking level it would cause these noises your hearing,not sure,other than that it says to get tech support,which is what I'm going to do right off the bat.hope you get it tuned.


Im sure you will be happy with it.


I figured out my issue but im too embarassed to tell you what it was LOL. Like i said I was in a rush so it was operator/install error.

I did try a few of the calibration tips i read, each one yeilding slightly different results all of which sounded quite nice. It is a little overwhel ming reading all these posts without having ever fooled with one. Once u get it installed CORRECTLY, its cake after that.


----------



## altec

I need big help here. I carried in my car to change tires and when I got it back the fourth channel of the ms-8 was not working. When I checked, the rca to that channel was connected to the "aux in". I am sure that the worker knocked it out and did not know where to plug it back in so he stuck it into the aux. Unfortunately the system was powered for at least ten minutes while I was driving. The amp and the speaker are fine but is the ms-8 a paperweight now or is there something I can do?


----------



## kaigoss69

altec said:


> I need big help here. I carried in my car to change tires and when I got it back the fourth channel of the ms-8 was not working. When I checked, the rca to that channel was connected to the "aux in". I am sure that the worker knocked it out and did not know where to plug it back in so he stuck it into the aux. Unfortunately the system was powered for at least ten minutes while I was driving. The amp and the speaker are fine but is the ms-8 a paperweight now or is there something I can do?


That should not have caused any problems. Just put the RCA back where it belongs.


----------



## altec

I found out that a few of the rcas were in the wrong places including one that was on a channel assigned to internal amplifier. Everything was put back where they should be and it works!


----------



## oca123

not exactly.


----------



## abdulwq

Any update where to buy the display cable or a replacement?
how can i test the unit without cable? just got it used so wanna check it asap...Thanksssss


----------



## quietfly

far as i know its a custom piece only available from JBL themselves.


----------



## plcrides

well heres my question for tonight,since the ms-8 sends the music towards your seating position,what does it do to your subs? i don't want my subs to be sent to my head so to speak.i am very anal about my subs,the way they play,they way they sound,and right now i have them sounding better than i ever have,you can feel it with every beat,and thats just at a 1/4 of volume,it just shakes you from head to toe,you can feel it.so my question is what is going to happen when i do a tune with my ms-8 to my subs ?what is it going to change ? cause I'm already thinking about not hooking it up when tuning if thats even a choice i have.


----------



## oca123

is this a serious question or is it meant to be taken out of context?
either way, I never had issues with the MS8 and my subs when I had that processor. You can always adjust the gain manually on the sub amp after tuning anyway.


----------



## plcrides

yes its a very serious question,why whats wrong? i haven't hooked the ms-8 up yet and from reading tons of stuff you put the mic's on your head and put the cd in and it sends a signal to where your ears are for that to be the listening position,correct? so i was just wondering what it would do to your subs.thats all.nevermind,guess theirs only one way to find out right.


----------



## oca123

I just adjusted some settings, let me know how it goes.

On a semi-related note, a 15mm button got ripped out of my pants and fell beside the toilet. I guess I'll have to find a friend with a needle to sow it back on.


----------



## MetricMuscle

I wouldn't use a pig for that.


----------



## bradknob

plcrides said:


> well heres my question for tonight,since the ms-8 sends the music towards your seating position,what does it do to your subs? i don't want my subs to be sent to my head so to speak.i am very anal about my subs,the way they play,they way they sound,and right now i have them sounding better than i ever have,you can feel it with every beat,and thats just at a 1/4 of volume,it just shakes you from head to toe,you can feel it.so my question is what is going to happen when i do a tune with my ms-8 to my subs ?what is it going to change ? cause I'm already thinking about not hooking it up when tuning if thats even a choice i have.



I have an ms-8 and from what I've read, the sub is unaffected by time alignment. After the many many times I've calibrated mine, the only thing that changed about my sub was the volume, depending on how loud or silent my sweeps were. I've read, not tried myself, to calibrate as it there were no sub and when it's all over let sub play as it was before. Once you get it installed all this BS will make a little more sense. Good luck


----------



## ansuser

abdulwq said:


> Any update where to buy the display cable or a replacement?
> how can i test the unit without cable? just got it used so wanna check it asap...Thanksssss


You can try do it yourself. It's a 4 wire cable, with 4-pole 2.5 mm phone jack on the display end and a 3-pole 2,5 jack mm with outer earthing contact (4th one) on the processor side
Here is page from service manual with jack pinout at the processor side:


----------



## MetricMuscle

plcrides said:


> well heres my question for tonight,since the ms-8 sends the music towards your seating position,what does it do to your subs? i don't want my subs to be sent to my head so to speak.i am very anal about my subs,the way they play,they way they sound,and right now i have them sounding better than i ever have,you can feel it with every beat,and thats just at a 1/4 of volume,it just shakes you from head to toe,you can feel it.so my question is what is going to happen when i do a tune with my ms-8 to my subs ?what is it going to change ? cause I'm already thinking about not hooking it up when tuning if thats even a choice i have.


There are a few advantages to running sub signal separate from MS-8.

- Leaves you with enough channels for the more important stuff like a 3-way front and a pair for the rear speakers.

- Separate more easily accessible level control of the subwoofer via remote gain knob instead of having to use the screen to turn it down, for what?

Sub is usually the farthest away from the listener so any delay would be applied to the closer speakers anyway.


----------



## naresh

I currently have a 2 way active setup. Silver flute 6.5 and seas prestige tweets powered by jbl ms 1004. Jl 12w3v3 powered by the jbl ms 5001. I have $500 to spend on my system, I was wondering since the jbl amps have dsp, would it make a Sq different if I get the ms8 to add to my system. I'm a noob and I'll be doing the installation myself with help from this forum. Thanks. Hope this is the right thread to ask this.


----------



## MetricMuscle

naresh said:


> I currently have a 2 way active setup. Silver flute 6.5 and seas prestige tweets powered by jbl ms 1004. Jl 12w3v3 powered by the jbl ms 5001. I have $500 to spend on my system, I was wondering since the jbl amps have dsp, would it make a Sq different if I get the ms8 to add to my system. I'm a noob and I'll be doing the installation myself with help from this forum. Thanks. Hope this is the right thread to ask this.


IIRC, your JBL MS1004 has some DSP features like adjustable crossovers and some EQ but no Time Alignment so yes, an MS-8 would make a SQ difference.


----------



## gumbeelee

I have finally reached MS-8 SOUND UTOPIA HEAVEN. I have had my ms-8 for awhile now and I am always recalibrating at different volumes, changing xover points, etc...A couple of days ago I was doing a couple of recalibrations trying some things when after one calibration, ms-8 utopia happened!!...all I can say is WOW!!! My set-up has always sounded very good, but I can't believe how it sounds after this calibration..All I have to say is this will be my last calibration, and I can't believe i'm saying that as much as I like to constantly tinker with my set-up...THANK YOU ANDY WEHMEYER AND THANK YOU JBL!!!


----------



## gumbeelee

naresh said:


> I currently have a 2 way active setup. Silver flute 6.5 and seas prestige tweets powered by jbl ms 1004. Jl 12w3v3 powered by the jbl ms 5001. I have $500 to spend on my system, I was wondering since the jbl amps have dsp, would it make a Sq different if I get the ms8 to add to my system. I'm a noob and I'll be doing the installation myself with help from this forum. Thanks. Hope this is the right thread to ask this.


I would definately add a ms-8 to this set-up especially since you are using the 1004 and the 5001..the ms-8 will definately be way better for SQ than not adding it...and believe me you will not be dissppointed after you purchase it..Good luck with your set-up!


----------



## subwoofery

gumbeelee said:


> I have finally reached MS-8 SOUND UTOPIA HEAVEN. I have had my ms-8 for awhile now and I am always recalibrating at different volumes, changing xover points, etc...A couple of days ago I was doing a couple of recalibrations trying some things when after one calibration, ms-8 utopia happened!!...all I can say is WOW!!! My set-up has always sounded very good, but I can't believe how it sounds after this calibration..All I have to say is this will be my last calibration, and I can't believe i'm saying that as much as I like to constantly tinker with my set-up...THANK YOU ANDY WEHMEYER AND THANK YOU JBL!!!


Curious to know what kind of settings you ended up with (Xover point) and what you've done (head leaning more towards one side or else). 
I see in your sig that you have a 2-way front system - any rear speakers? 

Kelvin


----------



## gumbeelee

subwoofery said:


> Curious to know what kind of settings you ended up with (Xover point) and what you've done (head leaning more towards one side or else).
> I see in your sig that you have a 2-way front system - any rear speakers?
> 
> Kelvin


Kelvin...i am planning on listing exactly all the new changes i made in a post on this thread tomorrow, but right now i have to go to bed for work, 7 am comes early especially since its already 1 am on east coast..i will put my xovers and head movements and other changes on hear tomorrow...and by the way I am and not using any rear fill just 2 way active up front and sub....thanx


----------



## Bluenote

MS8 heaven is nice..you finally get to the point where you can just listen to music.


----------



## theoldguy

gumbeelee said:


> Kelvin...i am planning on listing exactly all the new changes i made in a post on this thread tomorrow, but right now i have to go to bed for work, 7 am comes early especially since its already 1 am on east coast..i will put my xovers and head movements and other changes on hear tomorrow...and by the way I am and not using any rear fill just 2 way active up front and sub....thanx


yeah, thanks for the teaser. haha. Definitely curious what you stumbled across.


----------



## gumbeelee

gumbeelee said:


> I have finally reached MS-8 SOUND UTOPIA HEAVEN. I have had my ms-8 for awhile now and I am always recalibrating at different volumes, changing xover points, etc...A couple of days ago I was doing a couple of recalibrations trying some things when after one calibration, ms-8 utopia happened!!...all I can say is WOW!!! My set-up has always sounded very good, but I can't believe how it sounds after this calibration..All I have to say is this will be my last calibration, and I can't believe i'm saying that as much as I like to constantly tinker with my set-up...THANK YOU ANDY WEHMEYER AND THANK YOU JBL!!!


I posted that reply last nite and listened to my set- up all the way to work this morning and was so happy with my SQ. Now fast forward to after work, and I start doing what I always do, I start to tinker with my system. This makes me wonder if I will ever let my set-up just be the same for awhile and actually enjoy music. Even though I love the way I have my ms-8 dialed in right now, I continue to tweak it. I thank this a problem everyone has on this site, no matter how good of SQ we reach, it seems to be never good enough. I am super happy right now with my SQ, I just don't think I will ever just stop and truly listen to music.


----------



## naresh

Just purchased online from sc the ms-8. I currently have 2 ms1004 and a 5001. Hoping I can put it all together.


----------



## Golden Ear

gumbeelee said:


> I posted that reply last nite and listened to my set- up all the way to work this morning and was so happy with my SQ. Now fast forward to after work, and I start doing what I always do, I start to tinker with my system. This makes me wonder if I will ever let my set-up just be the same for awhile and actually enjoy music. Even though I love the way I have my ms-8 dialed in right now, I continue to tweak it. I thank this a problem everyone has on this site, no matter how good of SQ we reach, it seems to be never good enough. I am super happy right now with my SQ, I just don't think I will ever just stop and truly listen to music.


We won't quit till we have a 100 point car.


----------



## MetricMuscle

gumbeelee said:


> I posted that reply last nite and listened to my set- up all the way to work this morning and was so happy with my SQ. Now fast forward to after work, and I start doing what I always do, I start to tinker with my system. This makes me wonder if I will ever let my set-up just be the same for awhile and actually enjoy music. Even though I love the way I have my ms-8 dialed in right now, I continue to tweak it. I thank this a problem everyone has on this site, no matter how good of SQ we reach, it seems to be never good enough. I am super happy right now with my SQ, I just don't think I will ever just stop and truly listen to music.


Can't you store/save multiple calibrations? Keep the ones you like, replace the ones which are inferior. Accept that your OCD will probably erase a good one and make your life less wonderful but that is how you roll so don't fight it.


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

MetricMuscle said:


> Can't you store/save multiple calibrations? Keep the ones you like, replace the ones which are inferior. Accept that your OCD will probably erase a good one and make your life less wonderful but that is how you roll so don't fight it.


Unfortunately, no... the JBL MS-8 doesn't allow for that.


----------



## talan7

OK, so I finally got around to having all of my components installed. This is what I got;
JBL MS8 processor
JBL MS-A1004 100 watts x 4 channel amp at 4 or 2 ohms
JBL MS-A5001 500 watts x 1 channel amp at 4 or 2 ohms
JBL GTO609C 270-watt, 6-1/2" two-way component speaker system
JBL GTO939 300-watt, 6" x 9" three-way speaker with adjustable-level tweeter
JBL GTO629 180-watt, 6-1/2" coaxial speakers
JL Audio HO110RG-W3v3.

Ok, so I had a local shop install everything but they ran into a snag. The JBL MS8 has to be tuned. It has a screen with a wireless remote. You control everything with the remote to set up. The problem is the remote that came with it is defective. The volume down button doesn't work and the gain on the MS8 is turned all the way to the max. It's impossible for them to tune it as there are no redundant buttons on the monitor. Stupid design if you ask me. Anyway, JBLs customer service is really good. They are sending me a new remote. Hopefully I can then tune it and get great sound. Right now it doesn't sound very good. I'm also getting the echo in bluetooth. I don't hear anything but whomever I call gets an echo. There is a fix I read about here on DIYMobile.


----------



## bradknob

Fast Hot Rod said:


> Unfortunately, no... the JBL MS-8 doesn't allow for that.



You can store and save 5 EQ and tone settings but not save initial calibration and x-over points.


only downfall, for me, is not being able to change x-over points without a full re calibration and as mentioned above, no damn buttons!


----------



## subwoofery

bradknob said:


> You can store and save 5 EQ and tone settings but not save initial calibration and x-over points.
> 
> 
> only downfall, for me, is not being able to change x-over points without a full re calibration and as mentioned above, no damn buttons!


I feel that when people are really going to understand what a Xover point change or slope really does to phase - then they'll realize why JBL did not allow changing Xover points without a full calibration. 

Kelvin


----------



## NSTar

so I have a 17 speakers system in my car. I was wondering, can benefit from an MS-8 ? It's an Mark Levinson system.


----------



## bradknob

subwoofery said:


> I feel that when people are really going to understand what a Xover point change or slope really does to phase - then they'll realize why JBL did not allow changing Xover points without a full calibration.
> 
> 
> 
> Kelvin



Guess that's a good reason for me to have an ms-8. Lol. Any explanation or recommended reading as to what UR talking about? I'd like to learn.


----------



## subwoofery

bradknob said:


> Guess that's a good reason for me to have an ms-8. Lol. Any explanation or recommended reading as to what UR talking about? I'd like to learn.


There's a quite a few threads that you can read. 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/65359-basic-guide-read-before-posting.html 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/94500-list-usefull-diyma-threads.html 
The last link has a few threads that will help you improve your tuning skills too. 

Best reagards, 
Kelvin


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

bradknob said:


> You can store and save 5 EQ and tone settings but not save initial calibration and x-over points.


Yes, I know... I have one. The MS-8 saves the initial calibration and crossover settings, but doesn't allow you to change them unless you reconfigure/recalibrate. Tuning the EQ and saving the settings is not what the OP asked. He spoke specifically about 'calibrations.' 



MetricMuscle said:


> Can't you store/save multiple calibrations? Keep the ones you like, replace the ones which are inferior.


...which is the initial setup where you pick the number and location of the speakers, crossover points, etc...



> only downfall, for me, is not being able to change x-over points without a full re calibration and as mentioned above, no damn buttons!


I remember reading where Andy explained that the process used for the DSP is a serial event, meaning that it moves in sequence to 'dial in' everything. Changing a crossover point would effectively change the response of the system, which in the case of the MS-8, requires a new calibration.

Agreed on the lack of buttons... it would have been nice to have them on the display as well as the remote. 



subwoofery said:


> I feel that when people are really going to understand what a Xover point change or slope really does to phase - then they'll realize why JBL did not allow changing Xover points without a full calibration.
> 
> Kelvin


Thank you.


----------



## swargolet

I'm hoping someone can help me out here. I've had my MS-8 for about 2 years now. It is nice, but I've never been happy with the results I've been getting. 

I'll list my setup first:
- JBL MS-8 is powering Center (JL Audio c2-350x) and rears (stock). I've tried calibrations with and without the center with very little difference aside from imaging.
- JL HD 900/5 is powering subwoofer (JL 12W6v2), front midbass (Focal KRX2 Woofers) and front tweeters (Morel MT23).
- Doors are deadened with Second Skin damplifier pro and trunk with damplifier. 
- Using stock head unit which others with the same car have measured to be pretty good at giving a flat signal up to 32 which I try not to go over. It's connected to the MS-8 with just front left and right full-range signal as recommended by Andy.
- Prior to calibrating, I always level match to the center as I can't adjust a gain on the ms-8 to the center.
- Using default xover points but have tried a lower mid/tweet point with not much success.

Now onto my issues and what I've tried to fix them.
- Inadequate volume. This has been an ongoing issue that I've never had success with. I've tried calibrating anywhere from -28 to -40. I have increased the gain on the amps after calibration. I have set the MS-8 volume at 0db. Nothing I do seems to matter. I'm not sure why the MS-8 insists on completely killing the output. I've used this setup in the past without the MS-8 and havent had issues with it. My last resort is putting in an HD600/4 amp to power just the front woofers and have the HD900/5 power tweeters and subwoofer, but this seems extremely overkill.
- Subwoofer is extremely overwhelming. I currently have the gain on the amp as low as it can go and subwoofer setting on the MS-8 at 3 ticks below middle, but this is also affecting the mids up front which is what that adjustment is designed to do. (Which is stupid IMO) See graph I linked below for measurements which show that the sub is 15dB-20dB higher than everything else AFTER turning gains up on other speakers!
- Highs are quite harsh. This may be a side effect of my install as the tweeters are buried in the dash firing up at the windshield. I'd have to imagine others have the same setup though and don't have issues. Any tips on how to combat this aside from custom tweeter pods.
- The results I get after doing the calibration is relatively poor, forcing me to calibrate manually anyways. See graph below where green line is MS-8 calibration and red line is after I modify the eq. Measurements are taken with a professionally calibrated Dayton UMM-6 USB microphone.

Frequency Response Graph


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

bradknob said:


> Guess that's a good reason for me to have an ms-8. Lol. Any explanation or recommended reading as to what UR talking about? I'd like to learn.


It's a very complicated conversation to have, unless you have the background in electronics/engineering... but I'll try.

When dealing with electronic circuits, you have very basic things to deal with: Voltage, Current, and Resistance. (DC Circuits.) When you move into AC circuits, you have to account for the frequency of the signal, which then leads from us looking at 'just' resistance and more into impedance. (Google search *impedance, as well as capacitive and inductive reactance* for more info.)

The impedance of a circuit changes with frequency, and those changes end up impacting the circuit because any change from a purely resistive circuit (where voltage and current are in phase) means that you have a phase shift between the voltage and current waveforms.

Now, a voice coil is really nothing more than an electromagnet. It works based on current flow. As current flows through the wire, around the coil, and out the other terminal, it creates a magnetic field. That magnetic field is either positive or negative, relative to the magnet on the speaker. That causes the speaker to move in/out.

Here's the thing: Each speaker coil/magnet/motor assembly is somewhat unique in that their properties may be slightly different, or extremely different. (Two identical drivers may be very close in specifications, as compared to two different drivers of the same size.) Each driver has it's own resistance, it's own impedance (based on frequency) and will react differently when given the same input voltage signal. Why? Because even with the same voltage, it's the phase shift in the current flow (based on frequency and impedance) that changes the drivers response/reaction to the signal.

It's the change in the speaker's properties that will determine how much 'phase shift' takes place between voltage and current at a given frequency and signal. *This phase shift can also be expressed as a change in time. *

The DSP in the MS-8 knows all of this. It essentially sends the same signal to every driver, then 'listens' to each speaker's response. From there, it says, "This driver responds like this and has this much delay, this driver has that much delay, etc..." That listening takes place for each driver and across the frequency spectrum determined by the crossover points you set into the MS-8, and my assumption is that it's looking at the response at the crossover point to see exactly how the driver responds to be able to align the drivers properly.

If the MS-8 would allow you to change the crossover point AFTER calibration, it wouldn't account for the changes in the driver's response at the crossover frequency. It would essentially skew the results, because the driver would behave differently and have a different phase shift at 50hz vs. 60hz vs. 100hz vs. 500hz vs. 1,000hz. Couple what with the differences in driver locations and cabin response, and it's no wonder why the MS-8 locks it down the way that it does.

Please understand that this is a very basic explanation, and I'm probably forgetting a few things or simply flat-ass wrong on something... I'm human, after all. Those links that Subwoofery provided should help point you in the right direction.

Hope this helps.


----------



## bradknob

subwoofery said:


> There's a quite a few threads that you can read.....
> 
> Best reagards,
> Kelvin


Thanks, Ill check them out





Fast Hot Rod said:


> It's a very complicated conversation to have, unless you have the background in electronics/engineering... but I'll try.
> 
> 
> Hope this helps.



Holy hell.... well put! That puts quite a few things into perspective for a non electronics engineer like myself. I appreciate you taking the time to lay it all out.

Ill just keep letting the ms-8 do its thing. I like learning how it does what it does so down the road i can move on to bigger and better things.

Thanks again!


----------



## plcrides

hey guys I've been reading a ton and can't really find what I'm looking for,is their a link that would be helpful maybe a certain page number for what I'm about to ask.ok i am getting ready to instal my ms-8 and a brand new 4 channel amp that I'm not familiar with.and also 

I've never owned a 4 channel amp,never needed one.so after i hook up all the wires and rca's and turn the key on the first time,I'm a little concerned about what i should have my head unit and new 4 channel amp set to.the HU is a ken wood x996 and the amp is the PPI P900.4 I'm running tweeters and 6.5 mid's and my two subs.

so what settings do i need and will i be able to do anything when i turn key before inserting set up cd with mic.


----------



## Ryanu

plcrides said:


> hey guys I've been reading a ton and can't really find what I'm looking for,is their a link that would be helpful maybe a certain page number for what I'm about to ask.ok i am getting ready to instal my ms-8 and a brand new 4 channel amp that I'm not familiar with.and also
> 
> I've never owned a 4 channel amp,never needed one.so after i hook up all the wires and rca's and turn the key on the first time,I'm a little concerned about what i should have my head unit and new 4 channel amp set to.the HU is a ken wood x996 and the amp is the PPI P900.4 I'm running tweeters and 6.5 mid's and my two subs.
> 
> so what settings do i need and will i be able to do anything when i turn key before inserting set up cd with mic.



Few questions:
1) are you running ur tweets and 6.5s passively?
2) the PPI 900.4 is powering all ur drivers including the 2 subs?

Btw, u just need 1 pair of RCA output from headunit to ms8 input. As for the output depends on what your answers are from the 2 questions sated above.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## plcrides

there passive right now but when i cross over to the dark side world of going active i won't be using the passive x/overs,
and i am only running the front speakers off the 4 channel amp,the PPI
i have a separate amp for my subs and i don't think i want to even connect my subs to the ms-8 i have my subs playing awesome right now,better than ever.so just the front channels bud.
my main concern is the settings on my HU and the PPI and what will happen when i turn everything on,do i need to automatically do the cd tune with the ear mics? or do i have time to or even need to adjust anything like the gains on my amp ,you know stuff like that.kind of like a Y2K type of feeling lol ya know


----------



## Ryanu

plcrides said:


> there passive right now but when i cross over to the dark side world of going active i won't be using the passive x/overs,
> and i am only running the front speakers off the 4 channel amp,the PPI
> i have a separate amp for my subs and i don't think i want to even connect my subs to the ms-8 i have my subs playing awesome right now,better than ever.so just the front channels bud.
> my main concern is the settings on my HU and the PPI and what will happen when i turn everything on,do i need to automatically do the cd tune with the ear mics? or do i have time to or even need to adjust anything like the gains on my amp ,you know stuff like that.kind of like a Y2K type of feeling lol ya know


Dude.. i suggest u read the ms8 manual before doing anything... better still bring it to someone who knows how to setup the ms8. I dont wish to hear u burn ur drivers by setting them incorrectly.

Fyi... u need to connect everything to ms8 even ur sub. All the crossover setting will be set via ms8. TA will be done automatically when u perform calibration.

The CD is only required if u r taking hi signal input from HU to MS8.

YES - amp gain need to be set correctly... if u have read this thread... u might have notice Andy suggested to set the gain at 2v.

Again i reiterate... do understand fully how yo set it up.. else you will be blaming the product is not working as what you are expecting.

Good luck dude.


----------



## naresh

Quick question. I have the ms8 on the way and I want a double din head unit, currently have the Kenwood 997. Since I'll have the ms8, would it be okay for me to get something like the pioneer 4600 or 5600? Thanks


----------



## bradknob

naresh said:


> Quick question. I have the ms8 on the way and I want a double din head unit, currently have the Kenwood 997. Since I'll have the ms8, would it be okay for me to get something like the pioneer 4600 or 5600? Thanks


Im running a pioneer avh-x4600 with mine and had no issues. MS-8 increased the sound quality of the 4600 drastically


----------



## naresh

Thanks I'm trying to stay under 400 and would like something that goes well with my Android phone.


----------



## Ryanu

naresh said:


> Quick question. I have the ms8 on the way and I want a double din head unit, currently have the Kenwood 997. Since I'll have the ms8, would it be okay for me to get something like the pioneer 4600 or 5600? Thanks


I don't think there will be any issue using whatever HU with ms8. As ms8 accepts both hi and low signal input. Don't make it look so complicated. MS8 is supposed to make your life easier.


----------



## naresh

Thanks, I don't want to get something that would take away from the ms8. It is my first dsp I'll be installing so I'm excited.


----------



## Ryanu

naresh said:


> Thanks, I don't want to get something that would take away from the ms8. It is my first dsp I'll be installing so I'm excited.


I am using alpine ive-w530bt, jbl ms8 internal amp powering my oem fronts and rears while sub is powered off external amp. Not the best sound but it definitely better than oem.


----------



## MetricMuscle

naresh said:


> Thanks, I don't want to get something that would take away from the ms8. It is my first dsp I'll be installing so I'm excited.


Just make sure you send full signal frequency range to the MS-8. If you can do it with just 2 channels that is even better. So if you have like 6 RCA outputs or a separate sub out, try to just send one pair of RCA input set to full or all pass or no crossover filter selected. Don't use any of the DSP or tuning on the head unit.


----------



## ansuser

swargolet said:


> I'm hoping someone can help me out here. I've had my MS-8 for about 2 years now. It is nice, but I've never been happy with the results I've been getting.
> 
> I'll list my setup first:
> - JBL MS-8 is powering Center (JL Audio c2-350x) and rears (stock). I've tried calibrations with and without the center with very little difference aside from imaging.
> - JL HD 900/5 is powering subwoofer (JL 12W6v2), front midbass (Focal KRX2 Woofers) and front tweeters (Morel MT23).
> - Doors are deadened with Second Skin damplifier pro and trunk with damplifier.
> - Using stock head unit which others with the same car have measured to be pretty good at giving a flat signal up to 32 which I try not to go over. It's connected to the MS-8 with just front left and right full-range signal as recommended by Andy.
> - Prior to calibrating, I always level match to the center as I can't adjust a gain on the ms-8 to the center.
> - Using default xover points but have tried a lower mid/tweet point with not much success.
> 
> Now onto my issues and what I've tried to fix them.
> - Inadequate volume. This has been an ongoing issue that I've never had success with. I've tried calibrating anywhere from -28 to -40. I have increased the gain on the amps after calibration. I have set the MS-8 volume at 0db. Nothing I do seems to matter. I'm not sure why the MS-8 insists on completely killing the output. I've used this setup in the past without the MS-8 and havent had issues with it. My last resort is putting in an HD600/4 amp to power just the front woofers and have the HD900/5 power tweeters and subwoofer, but this seems extremely overkill.
> - Subwoofer is extremely overwhelming. I currently have the gain on the amp as low as it can go and subwoofer setting on the MS-8 at 3 ticks below middle, but this is also affecting the mids up front which is what that adjustment is designed to do. (Which is stupid IMO) See graph I linked below for measurements which show that the sub is 15dB-20dB higher than everything else AFTER turning gains up on other speakers!
> - Highs are quite harsh. This may be a side effect of my install as the tweeters are buried in the dash firing up at the windshield. I'd have to imagine others have the same setup though and don't have issues. Any tips on how to combat this aside from custom tweeter pods.
> - The results I get after doing the calibration is relatively poor, forcing me to calibrate manually anyways. See graph below where green line is MS-8 calibration and red line is after I modify the eq. Measurements are taken with a professionally calibrated Dayton UMM-6 USB microphone.
> 
> Frequency Response Graph


1. Make sure crossovers on amplifier are turned off 
2. Try to configure and calibrate system without subwoofer and see if it helps
3. After calibration switching "Processing" On/Off in DSP settings should not change overall loudness significantly - if it actually does, correct it with gain
(if you have lows boosted before calibration, DSP will cut it down and only slightly boost mids and highs).


----------



## elerner61

ansuser said:


> 1. Make sure crossovers on amplifier are turned off
> 2. Try to configure and calibrate system without subwoofer and see if it helps
> 3. After calibration switching "Processing" On/Off in DSP settings should not change overall loudness significantly - if it actually does, correct it with gain
> (if you have lows boosted before calibration, DSP will cut it down and only slightly boost mids and highs).


You may be asking too much of the MS-8's internal amp in powering those rears. I've got mine powering my front tweets only (no center) and I've never had an issue with system output and sound quality from the tweets has never been an issue. Perhaps try powering the rears off the amp and tweets off the MS-8 just to rule that out as the problem.


----------



## naresh

I don't know if this has been answered, I can't find a 25 amp mini anl fuse for the ms8, I saw 30 amp online, would this be okay.


----------



## MetricMuscle

Fuse size should be based on wire size.
The wire should be rated to carry a higher amperage load than the fuse.
What gauge wire are you using?


----------



## naresh

4 gauge knu ofc, about 2 feet from distribution block to ms8. Thanks


----------



## theoldguy

naresh said:


> 4 gauge knu ofc, about 2 feet from distribution block to ms8. Thanks


why are you supplying your ms8 with 4ga wire? That is complete overkill. Recommended size is 12ga. Even 8ga would be a bit much.


----------



## naresh

I have the ms 5001 and 1004 amps, which I used 4 gauge, but I'll switch them to 8 gauge, will be cheaper. The ms amps manual says 8 and I had 4 gauge on hand at the moment which fit into the amp perfectly. I'm glad I didn't order it yet. Plus the 8 gauge will be easier to work with. Thanks


----------



## theoldguy

naresh said:


> I have the ms 5001 and 1004 amps, which I used 4 gauge, but I'll switch them to 8 gauge, will be cheaper. The ms amps manual says 8 and I had 4 gauge on hand at the moment which fit into the amp perfectly. I'm glad I didn't order it yet. Plus the 8 gauge will be easier to work with. Thanks


you should be running 4ga from the battery to a distro block and run smaller wires (8ga to the amps and 12-10ga for the ms8) from there.


----------



## naresh

Tks, I already have 0 gauge run from a previous install, over kill, that was before I found this forum. Thanks for the advice, I'll go with the 8 and 12 gauge you suggested.


----------



## theoldguy

naresh said:


> Tks, I already have 0 gauge run from a previous install, over kill, that was before I found this forum. Thanks for the advice, I'll go with the 8 and 12 gauge you suggested.



even better. I thought you were starting from scratch. sounds like a solid plan


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## MetricMuscle

Use the proper sized fuse for the wire size.

American Wire Gauge	Fuse Size

00 awg 400 amps
0 awg 325 amps
1 awg 250 amps
2 awg 200 amps
4 awg 125 amps
6 awg 80 amps
8 awg 50 amps
10 awg 30 amps
12 awg 20 amps
14 awg 15 amps
16 awg 7.5 amps


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## naresh

MetricMuscle. Thanks for this chart.


----------



## talan7

Anyone in the NJ area that would be willing to tune my setup (for a generous fee)?
I have a 2012 Buick regal GS with the HK stock amp. MS8 is after the stock amp along with the JBL MSa1004 and A5001 amps. New speakers (jbl) all around. 

I would like to hear your set-ups before I let you tinker with mine. I'd be willing to travel to NY or PA, if it's close to NJ border.


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## 14642

Go see Mark Miller at Westminster Speed and Sound.


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## Koolor

Hey I just got the ms-8 off a friend and all is well but he didn't have the display cable which is holding me up. Does anyone have a spare/replacement cable or know where/who I can buy one off of? Thanks !
P.S. I called jbl and they told me its on back order and one will be in stock within 2 months -__- so calling jbl is out for now.


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

naresh said:


> I have the ms 5001 and 1004 amps, which I used 4 gauge, but I'll switch them to 8 gauge, will be cheaper. The ms amps manual says 8 and I had 4 gauge on hand at the moment which fit into the amp perfectly. I'm glad I didn't order it yet. Plus the 8 gauge will be easier to work with. Thanks


I ran 2/0 AWG from my battery --> 200A Breaker --> Fused distribution block.

4 AWG from the fused distribution block to two JBL MS-A5001's, a JBL MS-A1004, and my MS-8.

Overkill for sure... but I wanted as little voltage drop as possible. Pics of the install in progress:



















I picked up the 4 AWG from Parts Express. $24 for 20 ft of OFC cable isn't a bad price...


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## kaigoss69

^^^ That looks great! However, I would be careful about routing the power and signal wiring on the same side of the amp. In one of my previous installs I had a ground wire run close to one of the amp RCA plugs (not as close as you have it), and it picked up hideous noise.


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## t3sn4f2

Looks really good. I think 200 amps on the main fuse is a little much though. Considering the overall system efficiency and the amps precise gain setting procedure. Though using/treating the breaker as a fusible link of sorts should work out great.


----------



## naresh

Fast Hot Rod said:


> I ran 2/0 AWG from my battery --> 200A Breaker --> Fused distribution block.
> 
> 4 AWG from the fused distribution block to two JBL MS-A5001's, a JBL MS-A1004, and my MS-8.
> 
> Overkill for sure... but I wanted as little voltage drop as possible. Pics of the install in progress:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I picked up the 4 AWG from Parts Express. $24 for 20 ft of OFC cable isn't a bad price...


Beautiful setup. Thanks for the link to pe. I have 2 of the jbl ms-1004 and one ms-5001, along with the ms -8 waiting to be installed.


----------



## dengland

I have not seen anything posted on this configuration yet. I have a 2014 Ram 1500 that has the 8.4AN head unit with Alpine "Premium" configuration. 10 speakers in total. 3 Speakers across the dash. L/R Front door. L/R Rear Door. L/R headliner in the rear and single sub fed with 2 channels.

I am still waiting on a few more parts before beginning the MS-8 install.

I read the entire FAQ and quite a bit of this thread. I think I want to do the following:

Front Dash and Doors need to be summed to get full range. I will be using the high level inputs.

Planned Inputs will be:

1 Dash Left
2 Door Front Left
3 
4 Dash Right 
5 Door Front Right


Outputs will be:

1 Dash Left
2 Door Front Left
3 Center (Reconnecting it after reading the FAQ thread)
4 Dash Right 
5 Door Front Right
6 Door Rear Left
7 Door Rear Right
8 Sub 

Not sure if I should pull the sub into the summation or not. This graph has the bass response with and without the sub.









I have a Sub 1 and a Sub 2 according to the wiring diagram for the truck.

Thoughts?

Thanks.


----------



## dengland

Dang... I broke the thread... No replies after 4 days.

Running 2 more wire pairs for Sub 1 and Sub 2 just in case while I am running wire. Guess I will find out after I get everything hooked up and fire the MS-8 up.


----------



## 14642

I'd try it without the sub first.


----------



## dengland

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'd try it without the sub first.


Thanks Andy. I appreciate all of the posts from way back in the beginning of the thread too. The conversations in the FAQ thread tipped me from the 360 to the MS-8. I was convinced that I would not approach the tuning ability of the box itself.

Off to run wires.... Thanks again.


----------



## Lanson

I just thought I'd pop in and share my MS-8 controlled system. 

This is my build (well, _built_) log http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-kind-lansons-2013-ford-flex-audio-build.html

Here's some vids of the system including the MS-8 in action
System walk-through
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnYlkQVrvs0&list=UUn9-B4T55DUmiCmHCYhnxeQ
System demonstration
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61-O-XoPVMg&list=UUn9-B4T55DUmiCmHCYhnxeQ

And since Andy W. pops in here from time to time to help out, I'd like to say thanks Andy for teaching me important details about this unit, about beaming, and a bunch of other things for that matter. 

This system is the 5th MS-8 install I've done. I've learned that, despite the fact there are many other DSP's out there, there's nothing like the MS-8 when it comes to center channel and surround-speaker systems. The Logic7 that's specifically tuned for the car in the MS-8 makes for an amazing experience. If the car in question isn't really capable of supporting a center channel, then other processors do come up in the discussion. If it is a center channel-equipped car or if one is going in, then without a doubt, MS-8. That's my take on it.


----------



## 14642

Yup


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

fourthmeal said:


> And since Andy W. pops in here from time to time to help out, I'd like to say thanks Andy for teaching me important details about this unit, about beaming, and a bunch of other things for that matter.


Andy is the reason that I even considered buying the MS-8 and the MS series amps. Had he not been posting on this forum, helping people the way that he does, I may never have even considered buying JBL.

Funny how one persons reputation can do that.


----------



## talan7

Fast Hot Rod said:


> I ran 2/0 AWG from my battery --> 200A Breaker --> Fused distribution block.
> 
> 4 AWG from the fused distribution block to two JBL MS-A5001's, a JBL MS-A1004, and my MS-8.
> 
> Overkill for sure... but I wanted as little voltage drop as possible. Pics of the install in progress:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I picked up the 4 AWG from Parts Express. $24 for 20 ft of OFC cable isn't a bad price...


AWE! SOME! I have the same setup but just one less 4 channel amp.


----------



## Lanson

Fast Hot Rod said:


> Andy is the reason that I even considered buying the MS-8 and the MS series amps. Had he not been posting on this forum, helping people the way that he does, I may never have even considered buying JBL.
> 
> Funny how one persons reputation can do that.


I agree. Can't wait to see what he does with the next company.


----------



## theoldguy

talan7 said:


> AWE! SOME! I have the same setup but just one less 4 channel amp.


so you have two mono 5001 amps and zero 4ch 1004 amps? there is only one 4ch amp in that picture.


----------



## talan7

theoldguy said:


> so you have two mono 5001 amps and zero 4ch 1004 amps? there is only one 4ch amp in that picture.


I have the MS8, the A5001 and 1 A1004. I didn't see, you have 2 sub amps, that's bass


----------



## theoldguy

talan7 said:


> I have the MS8, the A5001 and 1 A1004. I didn't see, you have 2 sub amps, that's bass



Thats not my picture, I just noticed it. I have the same gear as you. Perfect for a set of comps and a 15"


----------



## kaigoss69

This is probably a stupid question but here it goes...

I want to use a headphone DAC as input on the Aux side. Signal comes from iPhone (Spotify Extreme) via Airport Express (Airplay) to the external DAC, and then via RCA to the MS-8 inputs.

I am currently using a cheap FiiO DAC and I would like to have a stronger signal for the MS-8 Aux input, in order to be able to lower my amp gains to reduce (eliminate) alternator whine.

I am not sure what voltage output my current DAC has but I ran across some units on Amazon that are DACs and headphone amps in one unit. I would assume such units will be able to provide a stronger signal through RCA compared to what I have now.

Looking at specs and reading reviews, I came across some general "guidelines" that relate to output and input impedance (not all devices are compatible, especially if the impedance on the input side is less than 8 times the impedance of the output). So anyway, two questions:

1. What is the impedance of the MS-8 Aux inputs?
2. Has anyone by chance run such a set-up and can recommend a DAC/amp that will work?

Thx


----------



## t3sn4f2

kaigoss69 said:


> This is probably a stupid question but here it goes...
> 
> I want to use a headphone DAC as input on the Aux side. Signal comes from iPhone (Spotify Extreme) via Airport Express (Airplay) to the external DAC, and then via RCA to the MS-8 inputs.
> 
> I am currently using a cheap FiiO DAC and I would like to have a stronger signal for the MS-8 Aux input, in order to be able to lower my amp gains to reduce (eliminate) alternator whine.
> 
> I am not sure what voltage output my current DAC has but I ran across some units on Amazon that are DACs and headphone amps in one unit. I would assume such units will be able to provide a stronger signal through RCA compared to what I have now.
> 
> Looking at specs and reading reviews, I came across some general "guidelines" that relate to output and input impedance (not all devices are compatible, especially if the impedance on the input side is less than 8 times the impedance of the output). So anyway, two questions:
> 
> 1. What is the impedance of the MS-8 Aux inputs?
> 2. Has anyone by chance run such a set-up and can recommend a DAC/amp that will work?
> 
> Thx


1. Somewhere typical where most equipment can handle it. 10Kohm IIRC.

2. If you can go wired instead of Airplay/APE, then I'd go with a "CEntrance HiFi-M8". It's as good as it gets for signal quality under any car audio environment. Plus just as "plug-n-play" for it as well, no need to try and find some expensive isolated/regulated power supply for it.

"DC Powering 
+9...+20V DC (3A) from external adapter, car, boat, etc. 

Internal supplies 
Battery-isolated, filtered ±10V, super-clean analog rails"

And an analog volume control knob for matching output voltage to the base MS-8 AUX input sensitivity.

You can also go with thier DACmini if you want to keep the APE. That one has all the core features but comes with a Toslink input.


----------



## kaigoss69

^^^ Thanks man, but YIKES! (I was looking for something a liiiiiiitle bit less expensive )


----------



## t3sn4f2

kaigoss69 said:


> ^^^ Thanks man, but YIKES! (I was looking for something a liiiiiiitle bit less expensive )


lol. There are a ton of lower priced options out there, but very few are designed to run off _raw_ 12 volts. Even regulated power supplies aren't isolated which is important for analog transmission Finding that PS that will work in your setup the first time without issue is where the effort and/or cost comes in. 

Though, you could always go with a Pioneer 80PRS and use it as a "car audio variable output DAC".


----------



## kaigoss69

t3sn4f2 said:


> lol. There are a ton of lower priced options out there, but very few are designed to run off _raw_ 12 volts. Even regulated power supplies aren't isolated which is important for analog transmission Finding that PS that will work in your setup the first time without issue is where the effort and/or cost comes in.
> 
> Though, you could always go with a Pioneer 80PRS and use it as a "car audio variable output DAC".


Yeah, that's an option, too! 

I was thinking to just get a line driver before the Aux input. Not sure how much more voltage I can feed before it starts clipping, but worth a shot I guess. Anybody have any experience with this unit (seems to get good reviews):


----------



## t3sn4f2

kaigoss69 said:


> Yeah, that's an option, too!
> 
> I was thinking to just get a line driver before the Aux input. Not sure how much more voltage I can feed before it starts clipping, but worth a shot I guess. Anybody have any experience with this unit (seems to get good reviews):


I don't think a line driver will be necessary on the AUX input. The MS-8 has a built in pre-amp (ie line driver) on the AUX input. It's there for typical lower than average output voltage portable devices.


----------



## ansuser

kaigoss69 said:


> ^^^ Thanks man, but YIKES! (I was looking for something a liiiiiiitle bit less expensive )


I have good experience with Hifimediy isolated USB DAC. It takes 14v power and output is 2vrms. From what I hear, 2vrms in MS-8 aux input is as loud as max undistorted (from ms-8 input calibration procedure) hi-level signal from HU. From this I'd assume that there is no sence to go above 2vrms. It most likely will cause clipping in ADC.


----------



## chofilena

Hi guys. I need help!!! While I was level matching my sytem and run my finaI calibration. I accidentally increase the gain of my midbass amp and everything sounded awful. I tried resetting the MS-8 to restore factory defaults but still the same. I tried re calibrating (too many times) but I still get the same result. No sound on the front tweeter and little sound on my front midrange and midbass. But getting a clear sound on my rear coaxial speakers and in my sub. What could be wrong with the system?
This is my system configuration:
Output 1 tweeter/ midrange (using a 4.7uf cap) FL hi RFT400-4 xross at 370hz
Output 2 woofer FL lo amp RF T400-4 CH3
Output 3 coaxial SL MS-8 at 100hz
Output 4 coaxial SR MS-8
Output 5 woofer FR lo amp RF T400-4 CH4
Output 6 tweeter/ midrange FR hi amp RF T400-4 CH2
Output 7 none
Output 8 Sub1 pioneer 8" shallow mount installed under the dashboard down firing at 80hz. Amp RF T500-1
PLEASE HELP


----------



## Lanson

chofilena said:


> Hi guys. I need help!!! While I was level matching my sytem and run my finaI calibration. I accidentally increase the gain of my midbass amp and everything sounded awful. I tried resetting the MS-8 to restore factory defaults but still the same. I tried re calibrating (too many times) but I still get the same result. No sound on the front tweeter and little sound on my front midrange and midbass. But getting a clear sound on my rear coaxial speakers and in my sub. What could be wrong with the system?
> This is my system configuration:
> Output 1 tweeter/ midrange (using a 4.7uf cap) FL hi RFT400-4 xross at 370hz
> Output 2 woofer FL lo amp RF T400-4 CH3
> Output 3 coaxial SL MS-8 at 100hz
> Output 4 coaxial SR MS-8
> Output 5 woofer FR lo amp RF T400-4 CH4
> Output 6 tweeter/ midrange FR hi amp RF T400-4 CH2
> Output 7 none
> Output 8 Sub1 pioneer 8" shallow mount installed under the dashboard down firing at 80hz. Amp RF T500-1
> PLEASE HELP


Not sure if it matters, but I always map out my inputs and outputs in a more conventional manner, so as not to confuse things. Not sure if this affects the MS8, but I always go FR high, FL high, FR low, FL low, SR, SL, Center, Sub. If I'm not doing a center, then #7 is sub and 8 goes unused.

I do know the INPUT wise, you should try to follow a similar setup, because the MS8 is "expecting" it.

Consider using quality barrier strips (there's even some with plastic cover) so you can quickly set up the right inputs and outputs and change them if need be, without ripping up the wiring.

Also, consider that something may be up with the amp, like a setting or some sort of switch in it, because the sound distortion is localized to the amp. You can test this by putting the MS8 power in control of the speakers all around, and see how it sounds.


----------



## tbomb

so you have a cap on the tweeter but nothing on the mid? This may be issue if the mid you are using doesnt like those upper frequencies. And assuming its a 4 ohms tweeter (you didnt say what the rest of your equioment was) then that seems like a VERY high crossover point. So it seems you have laid it out where youare trying to make your speakers perform differently then they were intended so the MS8 just cant overcome the base FR of the system.


----------



## kaigoss69

chofilena said:


> Hi guys. I need help!!! While I was level matching my sytem and run my finaI calibration. I accidentally increase the gain of my midbass amp and everything sounded awful. I tried resetting the MS-8 to restore factory defaults but still the same. I tried re calibrating (too many times) but I still get the same result. No sound on the front tweeter and little sound on my front midrange and midbass. But getting a clear sound on my rear coaxial speakers and in my sub. What could be wrong with the system?
> This is my system configuration:
> Output 1 tweeter/ midrange (using a 4.7uf cap) FL hi RFT400-4 xross at 370hz
> Output 2 woofer FL lo amp RF T400-4 CH3
> Output 3 coaxial SL MS-8 at 100hz
> Output 4 coaxial SR MS-8
> Output 5 woofer FR lo amp RF T400-4 CH4
> Output 6 tweeter/ midrange FR hi amp RF T400-4 CH2
> Output 7 none
> Output 8 Sub1 pioneer 8" shallow mount installed under the dashboard down firing at 80hz. Amp RF T500-1
> PLEASE HELP


You cannot physically mess anything up within the MS-8 by setting an amp gain too high...I bet your problem (if it is with the MS-8) is unrelated to that incident.


----------



## kaigoss69

ansuser said:


> I have good experience with Hifimediy isolated USB DAC. It takes 14v power and output is 2vrms. From what I hear, 2vrms in MS-8 aux input is as loud as max undistorted (from ms-8 input calibration procedure) hi-level signal from HU. From this I'd assume that there is no sence to go above 2vrms. It most likely will cause clipping in ADC.



Thanks very much, I have ordered the Hifimediy DAC. Will report back.


----------



## chofilena

kaigoss69 said:


> You cannot physically mess anything up within the MS-8 by setting an amp gain too high...I bet your problem (if it is with the MS-8) is unrelated to that incident.


Thank you all for the quick help. But its my fault and stupidity that maybe when I was adjusting the gain control knobs I accidentally hit the 2ch/ 4ch switch on my amplifier. Which caused everything to fail.


----------



## t3sn4f2

kaigoss69 said:


> Thanks very much, I have ordered the Hifimediy DAC. Will report back.


Which one did you get? I can't find one that fits your application. A Toslink (ie S/PDIF) to analog DAC right?


----------



## kaigoss69

t3sn4f2 said:


> Which one did you get? I can't find one that fits your application. A Toslink (ie S/PDIF) to analog DAC right?


I also ordered the Air Enabler, which replaces the Airport Express, and has USB digital output.


----------



## DragonMouse

A question:

have there been any software updates for the MS-8 - does it matter if one unit was standing from 2012 or if I buy one brand new from the factory? 

Thanks


----------



## t3sn4f2

kaigoss69 said:


> I also ordered the Air Enabler, which replaces the Airport Express, and has USB digital output.


Pretty cool. Did you also get the USB isolator? For in between the Air Enabler and the DAC.

AirPlay in the Car - Installation Tips - AirEnabler


----------



## kaigoss69

t3sn4f2 said:


> Pretty cool. Did you also get the USB isolator? For in between the Air Enabler and the DAC.
> 
> 
> 
> AirPlay in the Car - Installation Tips - AirEnabler



No, will see first if I need it.


----------



## theoldguy

DragonMouse said:


> A question:
> 
> have there been any software updates for the MS-8 - does it matter if one unit was standing from 2012 or if I buy one brand new from the factory?
> 
> Thanks



there is a firmware update via the European ms8 site, but its only for people with specific bluetooth issues. shouldnt be any differences buying one old vs new to my knowledge.


----------



## sirbOOm

t3sn4f2 said:


> CEntrance HiFi-M8"


This has 4 output options. Which one do you pick to go to RCAs then into an amplifier? I've never seen any of those abbreviations...


----------



## t3sn4f2

sirbOOm said:


> This has 4 output options. Which one do you pick to go to RCAs then into an amplifier? I've never seen any of those abbreviations...


I haven't looked that far into it. I'd email them and see.


----------



## sirbOOm

But I want you to tell me cuz I'm lazy. Haha


----------



## t3sn4f2

sirbOOm said:


> But I want you to tell me cuz I'm lazy. Haha


I looked before but I couldn't figure it out. One of us will eventually email them.


----------



## chofilena

I need advice on my xover settings. My car is a 2013 mitsubishi triton double cab pick-up and my system consists of:
1. front speakers- cdt drt25 tweeters 4.7uf cap between the cdt Es 03 midrange. Amp RF T400-4 (1 &2 channel). Tweeter location A-pillar pointing right tweeter on the driver, left tweeter front passenger. Midrange driver on the pillars 3inches apart from the tweeter facing each other.
2. front midwoofers- cdt Es 6.5 amp RF T400-4 (3&4 channel) on door stock location.
3. Side speakers 6" boston acoustic coaxial - MS-8
4. Subwoofer pioneer 8" shallow mount in a .15cu.ft sealed enclosure. Amp RF T500-1. Located under the dashboard down firing.
5. MS-8
6. Stock head unit. 
Xover setting: sub filter 20hz , sub 80hz and 370hz for the mid/tweeter. Slopes im using are what the MS-8 manual recommends.
So far im happy how the mids/tweeters sounds but I have week midbass and a weaker sub. Could their be a problem because my sub and my right midbass is to close to each other? Please advice, thanks.


----------



## The real Subzero

chofilena said:


> I need advice on my xover settings. My car is a 2013 mitsubishi triton double cab pick-up and my system consists of:
> 1. front speakers- cdt drt25 tweeters 4.7uf cap between the cdt Es 03 midrange. Amp RF T400-4 (1 &2 channel). Tweeter location A-pillar pointing right tweeter on the driver, left tweeter front passenger. Midrange driver on the pillars 3inches apart from the tweeter facing each other.
> 2. front midwoofers- cdt Es 6.5 amp RF T400-4 (3&4 channel) on door stock location.
> 3. Side speakers 6" boston acoustic coaxial - MS-8
> 4. Subwoofer pioneer 8" shallow mount in a .15cu.ft sealed enclosure. Amp RF T500-1. Located under the dashboard down firing.
> 5. MS-8
> 6. Stock head unit.
> Xover setting: sub filter 20hz , sub 80hz and 370hz for the mid/tweeter. Slopes im using are what the MS-8 manual recommends.
> So far im happy how the mids/tweeters sounds but I have week midbass and a weaker sub. Could their be a problem because my sub and my right midbass is to close to each other? Please advice, thanks.


try flipping polarity on the woofers and the sub. try combinations : norm rev, rev rev, rev norm. just using the woofer and sub and see what happens.


----------



## theoldguy

chofilena said:


> I need advice on my xover settings. My car is a 2013 mitsubishi triton double cab pick-up and my system consists of:
> 1. front speakers- cdt drt25 tweeters 4.7uf cap between the cdt Es 03 midrange. Amp RF T400-4 (1 &2 channel). Tweeter location A-pillar pointing right tweeter on the driver, left tweeter front passenger. Midrange driver on the pillars 3inches apart from the tweeter facing each other.
> 2. front midwoofers- cdt Es 6.5 amp RF T400-4 (3&4 channel) on door stock location.
> 3. Side speakers 6" boston acoustic coaxial - MS-8
> 4. Subwoofer pioneer 8" shallow mount in a .15cu.ft sealed enclosure. Amp RF T500-1. Located under the dashboard down firing.
> 5. MS-8
> 6. Stock head unit.
> Xover setting: sub filter 20hz , sub 80hz and 370hz for the mid/tweeter. Slopes im using are what the MS-8 manual recommends.
> So far im happy how the mids/tweeters sounds but I have week midbass and a weaker sub. Could their be a problem because my sub and my right midbass is to close to each other? Please advice, thanks.


please read this thread front to back. it will answer many of your questions.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq.html


----------



## kaigoss69

chofilena said:


> I need advice on my xover settings. My car is a 2013 mitsubishi triton double cab pick-up and my system consists of:
> 1. front speakers- cdt drt25 tweeters 4.7uf cap between the cdt Es 03 midrange. Amp RF T400-4 (1 &2 channel). Tweeter location A-pillar pointing right tweeter on the driver, left tweeter front passenger. Midrange driver on the pillars 3inches apart from the tweeter facing each other.
> 2. front midwoofers- cdt Es 6.5 amp RF T400-4 (3&4 channel) on door stock location.
> 3. Side speakers 6" boston acoustic coaxial - MS-8
> 4. Subwoofer pioneer 8" shallow mount in a .15cu.ft sealed enclosure. Amp RF T500-1. Located under the dashboard down firing.
> 5. MS-8
> 6. Stock head unit.
> Xover setting: sub filter 20hz , sub 80hz and 370hz for the mid/tweeter. Slopes im using are what the MS-8 manual recommends.
> So far im happy how the mids/tweeters sounds but I have week midbass and a weaker sub. Could their be a problem because my sub and my right midbass is to close to each other? Please advice, thanks.


Have you set the levels using the hidden menu? If not, do that. Set all speakers that play 370Hz and above at the same level (or as close as possible) using a dB meter or a smartphone app. Set the midbass 4-5 dB louder, the sub 9 dB louder. On the midbass and sub amp, engage the LP filter, if you have them. Set the frequencies roughly 30 Hz higher than the MS-8 crossover points. So for the sub channel you would set it to 110Hz, the midbass 400 Hz. This prevents the sweeps from playing much beyond the speakers' MS-8 passband, and helps the processor set levels more accurately. Leave the filters engaged after calibration because they do change acoustic phase, and MS-8 will correct for that.


----------



## subwoofery

kaigoss69 said:


> Have you set the levels using the hidden menu? If not, do that. Set all speakers that play 370Hz and above at the same level (or as close as possible) using a dB meter or a smartphone app. Set the midbass 4-5 dB louder, the sub 9 dB louder. On the midbass and sub amp, engage the LP filter, if you have them. Set the frequencies roughly 30 Hz higher than the MS-8 crossover points. So for the sub channel you would set it to 110Hz, the midbass 400 Hz. This prevents the sweeps from playing much beyond the speakers' MS-8 passband, and helps the processor set levels more accurately. Leave the filters engaged after calibration because they do change acoustic phase, and MS-8 will correct for that.


You got this advice from the man himself or by playing with the MS-8 for such a long time? 

Kelvin


----------



## Lanson

I also noticed with my calibrations that a few hz difference in the crossover settings during the calibration process makes potentially a dramatic difference in performance. 

It was quite strange, because the difference between 70hz and 75hz was the difference between crazy failure. 

Every calibration is like a snowflake. No two are alike!


----------



## Airforceyooper

I second that. not to mention the slight differences between looking at the outside of the mirror vs inside of the mirror. All those nuances will alter your outcome.


----------



## Lanson

Airforceyooper said:


> I second that. not to mention the slight differences between looking at the outside of the mirror vs inside of the mirror. All those nuances will alter your outcome.


+1. I damn near break my neck when I do it, and it seems to be the most effective. Weird, I know. Also, tuning with the windows a little cracked makes a totally different response.


----------



## chofilena

kaigoss69 said:


> Have you set the levels using the hidden menu? If not, do that. Set all speakers that play 370Hz and above at the same level (or as close as possible) using a dB meter or a smartphone app. Set the midbass 4-5 dB louder, the sub 9 dB louder. On the midbass and sub amp, engage the LP filter, if you have them. Set the frequencies roughly 30 Hz higher than the MS-8 crossover points. So for the sub channel you would set it to 110Hz, the midbass 400 Hz. This prevents the sweeps from playing much beyond the speakers' MS-8 passband, and helps the processor set levels more accurately. Leave the filters engaged after calibration because they do change acoustic phase, and MS-8 will correct for that.


Never used the hidden menu. How do you engage that? Will try also browsing it. Will try tuning again if I get the time and tell you the results. Thanks so so much!


----------



## chofilena

chofilena said:


> Never used the hidden menu. How do you engage that? Will try also browsing it. Will try tuning again if I get the time and tell you the results. Thanks so so much!


Tried looking for the hidden menu but cannot find it. Please teach me how you do it. I did what you told me about activating the amplifiers xover and it sounded better stronger bass but not much. After level matching the speakers and doing calibration problem is when I increase gain on the amplifier music gets distorted.


----------



## 14642

Airforceyooper said:


> I second that. not to mention the slight differences between looking at the outside of the mirror vs inside of the mirror. All those nuances will alter your outcome.


No, the head rotation makes very little difference. Changing crossover frequencies can make a big difference, especially if one choice is in a null and the other is in a peak.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Can the ms-8 work effectively in a logic7 setup with the front L/C/R running 2-way _fully_ active? Then derive the sub channel from the front L/R lowpassed band. Say with an MS amp. Using the amps handier remote to do sub level adjustment.

Why do it? Wondering if there is any advantage to running the 2-way center fully active of the ms-8. Over running passives or external processing.

If it works it make a difference it also leave the chance to run higher lowpassed subs in stereo mounted either on the rear deck or in custom enclosures in the rear sides of the car.

Rear fill experimenting comes later.


----------



## Mark the Bold

Had my MS-8 working swell for 3 years now. However, I noticed that on more and more increasing occasions, the right channel is cutting out. 

I am swapping out the headunit (KDC x995) this weekend for my first Alpine ever (cde-hd149bt) to rule out the headunit and get a splash of fresh 'paint' in the car with a new gizmo. I really don't think its the MS-8 because the entire right side is cutting out which in my rig would mean two seperate RCA's on the MS-8 are failing which the odds of that are very small. The MS-8 is also securely installed and never gets moved / bumped. But it could be the input RCA's from the MS8 or the headunit. I suspect its the headunit because it has been acting kind of buggy over the past year.

Anyway, I have read that Alpine has much stronger RCA Pre-Outs than Kenwood. When I calibrated the Kenwood I really had to increase the MS-8 volume to like -12dB just to get an audible sweep, and that was with my beefy amps gains near full.

No doubt I'll figure out the Alpine, but if anyone has any advice on optimally calibrating the MS-8 with an Alpine HU, it will save me a lot of trouble shooting in the summer heat.

My plan:

(a) Gain adjust to flat with RTA
(b) Set crossover points at 80Hz (10" Dayton HO Sub) -> 1800 Hz (RS180-4 7") -> 1800 Hz (Tuned Rear Dome Dayton RS Dome 1" Tweeter RSA28F) same as Kenwood crossover points. (24dB slopes for all). I know this gear is very common so that is why I asked if anyone has different crossover points. The above is the parts express tech recommendations who are quite knowledgable about car audio.
(c) Sweep at -30dB with Ms-8
(d) Listen at -10dB

Andy,

In the case it is the MS- 8, is there a reliable repair guy in Socal I can take this to. I live in LA so I figured there would be one. If not, I'll try to resolder the RCA's myself but would rather not because I have gorilla hands. I read on this thread the RCA's on the MS-8 have not been all that reliable, but I am not sure that is the truth or just some grumpy internet trolling gossip.


----------



## Lanson

Mark you have an aux input on the MS8, so you can just plug into that and see if it cuts out.


----------



## chofilena

Andy, you mentioned before that if you have a small subwoofer with a small sealed enclosure and that if your amplifier has a built in xover set it to 65 to 70hz. So what frequency should I set the ms8 xover? 50hz? Im using a single sub. pioneer shallow mount subwoofer in a .15cu.ft enclosure under the dashboard down firing beside the right midwoofer. Thanks.


----------



## dengland

I am still learning and tuning. I only have about 5 tuning attempts under my belt at the moment, so I will skip tuning questions until I have more effort under my belt.

I have a 2014 RAM 1500 using factory locations: 3.5s in the dash (L, R, C), 6x9s in Front Doors and Rear Doors, 8 inch sub in Factory enclosure. MS-8 is getting Front Dash and Front Door as speaker inputs. MS-8 is driving all 8 output channels.

L&R Dash are coax Infinity 3032s.
Center Dash currently is the OEM.

During MS-8 speaker checks the center OEM is tonally WAY different than L/R and the center is much louder. I measured both speakers (external to the truck)just to get a visual. Below what I measured. (Both got the same signal, but mic may not have been perfectly the same.) BLUE is OEM and GREEN is the Infinity 3032.










When I got the truck I immediately bought the 3032s and disconnected the center and the sound was improved. Now that I am trying to use the MS-8 as intended, I have reconnected the center. I am having trouble finding more 3032s at a reasonable price.

*QUESTION:* Is it important to have speakers with the same tonal color for L/R/C, or is it more important to get the most capable 3.5" for the center? (if there is such a thing.) I want to get something on order ASAP.

Side note: the tuning that I am currently struggling with is that the dash sounds very thin and pronounced. It is not blending in. Today's project is spend more time experimenting with the Front Hi/Low crossover and slope and the Center Hi pass crossover and slope.

Thanks


----------



## t3sn4f2

dengland said:


> I am still learning and tuning. I only have about 5 tuning attempts under my belt at the moment, so I will skip tuning questions until I have more effort under my belt.
> 
> I have a 2014 RAM 1500 using factory locations: 3.5s in the dash (L, R, C), 6x9s in Front Doors and Rear Doors, 8 inch sub in Factory enclosure. MS-8 is getting Front Dash and Front Door as speaker inputs. MS-8 is driving all 8 output channels.
> 
> L&R Dash are coax Infinity 3032s.
> Center Dash currently is the OEM.
> 
> During MS-8 speaker checks the center OEM is tonally WAY different than L/R and the center is much louder. I measured both speakers (external to the truck)just to get a visual. Below what I measured. (Both got the same signal, but mic may not have been perfectly the same.) BLUE is OEM and GREEN is the Infinity 3032.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I got the truck I immediately bought the 3032s and disconnected the center and the sound was improved. Now that I am trying to use the MS-8 as intended, I have reconnected the center. I am having trouble finding more 3032s at a reasonable price.
> 
> *QUESTION:* Is it important to have speakers with the same tonal color for L/R/C, or is it more important to get the most capable 3.5" for the center? (if there is such a thing.) I want to get something on order ASAP.
> 
> Side note: the tuning that I am currently struggling with is that the dash sounds very thin and pronounced. It is not blending in. Today's project is spend more time experimenting with the Front Hi/Low crossover and slope and the Center Hi pass crossover and slope.
> 
> Thanks


Much more important to get a capable speaker, in this case since the oe center doesn't look capable. Matching tonality is much less important period since the source location of each speaker will change each speaker's 'tonality' to something new. It does look nice though, to have all three match. And that always makes everyone enjoy their system more.


----------



## Cruz5350

Hey guys anybody know if the display cables will be back in stock soon? Or better yet anyone have one for sale I bought a used unit and didn't realize it was missing the cable I know stupid me for not checking more. The website shows it as not available. I also called JBL and left a voicemail hoping they'd return my call still nothing. 

Thanks for the help!


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

I asked this question months ago and never really got a response that came to a solution. Here you can see the original discussion, which was in this thread a while ago if you're curious.

Long story short, I have a 2009 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS with upgraded factory Rockford Fosgate system. My factory amplifier speaker outputs are connected to the MS-8 speaker inputs. The MS-8 then outputs to two amplifiers, a 4-channel and monoblock. The 4-channel is powering the OEM speakers, active setup. So Ch 1+2 are front mid range and Ch 3+4 are front tweeters. 

I get a quiet yet constant hissing noise, or maybe better described as making the S sound with your mouth. Even if I turn the headunit volume to zero, or pause the music, the hiss is ALWAYS there and the volume level of the hiss does not change even if I change the volume of the headunit. 

The hiss only changes loudness if I change the MS8 volume. However, lowering MS-8 volume to remove the hiss makes the music too quiet. So I crank the gains up slightly to get the desired loudness back and BOOM, the hiss comes right back to the loudness it was. There is no escaping it. At a comfortable, casual listening volume, the hiss is there. Only way to escape it is to crank up the volume and use the loudness to drown it out. 

Ideas? Thoughts? Solutions?


----------



## kaigoss69

That means the hiss originates from the MS-8, or the source. To rule out the source, connect an iPod or whatever to the AUX input.


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

kaigoss69 said:


> That means the hiss originates from the MS-8, or the source. To rule out the source, connect an iPod or whatever to the AUX input.


The hiss is still there when connecting to the AUX of the MS-8, only it becomes much less. If it's the MS-8, why is it doing this, and is there a fix? Can I perform some kind of hard reset or something on it? If not, is there an RCA filter or something I can add to it?


----------



## kaigoss69

DuffmasterFresh said:


> The hiss is still there when connecting to the AUX of the MS-8, only it becomes much less. If it's the MS-8, why is it doing this, and is there a fix? Can I perform some kind of hard reset or something on it? If not, is there an RCA filter or something I can add to it?


Since the hiss is less, could it be from your amp gains being cranked too high?


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

kaigoss69 said:


> Since the hiss is less, could it be from your amp gains being cranked too high?


When I say cranked high, I mean less than half. I know cranking my gains is a bad thing so I set them where they need to be and boost them a little for testing purposes. I set them at zero when I run the calibrations and then boost them to their necessary level when I'm done which is only about 1/4.


----------



## subwoofery

DuffmasterFresh said:


> When I say cranked high, I mean less than half. I know cranking my gains is a bad thing so I set them where they need to be and boost them a little for testing purposes. I set them at zero when I run the calibrations and then boost them to their necessary level when I'm done which is only about 1/4.


1/4, half, full doesn't mean a thing... 
Learn how to set your gain properly and you might be able to take advantage of your setup and minimize the hiss post-calibration 

Not sure if you've got an active setup but the MS-8 might be boosting some frequencies because some one set of driver might be quieter than another set. 

Kelvin


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

subwoofery said:


> 1/4, half, full doesn't mean a thing...
> Learn how to set your gain properly and you might be able to take advantage of your setup and minimize the hiss post-calibration
> 
> Kelvin


I use a meter to check my gains so they match the MS-8 at about 2V. Even used an SMD DD1 before so I know that the 1/4th point on my gain pot for my amps is my sweet spot. Sorry, I should have clarified that from the start.


----------



## subwoofery

Edited my previous post... Do you have an active setup? 

Kelvin


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

subwoofery said:


> Edited my previous post... Do you have an active setup?
> 
> Kelvin


Yes I do have an active setup. On my 4-channel amp, Ch1+2 are my 6.5 midrange drivers in the lower doors and Ch3+4 are my 1 inch tweeters in the window wedge area on top of the door. The speakers are stock speakers. What kind of additional trouble shooting should I do? I assume I can try by switching my channels around so the mid range is on Ch3+4 and tweeters on 1+2? I hear the hiss from the tweeters, but that doesn't mean the midrange doesn't have it. Would my ground be an issue? I checked them already and they are solidly bolted to a non-painted, shiney metal area. I should check them again. 

I assume I should also connect RCA's right to the 4-channel amp, plug in and iPod, and try that with the high-pass filters on for safety?


----------



## kaigoss69

DuffmasterFresh said:


> I use a meter to check my gains so they match the MS-8 at about 2V. Even used an SMD DD1 before so I know that the 1/4th point on my gain pot for my amps is my sweet spot. Sorry, I should have clarified that from the start.


This is the incorrect way to set the gains, especially in an active setup with tweets and midranges. You need to measure the acoustic dB output of the tweets in relation to the midranges. You can do this with the hidden menu -> output identification, and measure with a dB meter or a good phone app. I'm guessing your 2V gain settings result in vastly different output levels between the tweeters and the midranges.


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

kaigoss69 said:


> This is the incorrect way to set the gains, especially in an active setup with tweets and midranges. You need to measure the acoustic dB output of the tweets in relation to the midranges. You can do this with the hidden menu -> output identification, and measure with a dB meter or a good phone app. I'm guessing your 2V gain settings result in vastly different output levels between the tweeters and the midranges.


I have an Android Galaxy S4, do you have an app recommendations?
How do I access the hidden menu?

I run calibration with gains set at zero, then I turn them up after calibration.


----------



## kaigoss69

DuffmasterFresh said:


> I have an Android Galaxy S4, do you have an app recommendations?
> How do I access the hidden menu?
> 
> I run calibration with gains set at zero, then I turn them up after calibration.


Not sure with Android. With iPhone I used SPLnFFT with good results.

You should not have to touch gains after calibration...you have to set them correctly prior to calibration.


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

kaigoss69 said:


> Not sure with Android. With iPhone I used SPLnFFT with good results.
> 
> You should not have to touch gains after calibration...you have to set them correctly prior to calibration.


Because I have a stock headunit, I set the MS8 to -20dB per the manuals recommendation for factory equipment when I run calibration. If I set the gains to their correct location, and not all the way down, running the sweeps would be VERY loud. I thought the sweeps had to be quiet enough, around speaking volume? Should I set the gains and then adjust the MS8 volume lower, below -20dB, until the sweeps are at a comfortable level?

How do I access the MS8 Hidden menu??


----------



## kaigoss69

DuffmasterFresh said:


> Because I have a stock headunit, I set the MS8 to -20dB per the manuals recommendation for factory equipment when I run calibration. If I set the gains to their correct location, and not all the way, running the sweeps would be VERY loud. I thought the sweeps had to be quiet enough, around speaking volume?
> 
> How do I access the MS8 Hidden menu??


-20 dB is just a generic suggestion. Think about it, the 2V setting on a 15W amp vs a 500W amp would produce vastly different volume levels. 

You should NEVER have to touch the gains once everything is level matched, and calibrated, but you can set the calibration volume anywhere where it gives you conversation level sweeps. In a car with 15W amps, that may be at -20 MS-8 volume, in a car with 500W amps it may be at -50. 

I think you need to read the MS-8 FAQ thread to get a better understanding of what you need to do to get the best results. That will also tell you how to access the hidden menu.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq.html


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## DuffmasterFresh

kaigoss69 said:


> -20 dB is just a generic suggestion. Think about it, the 2V setting on a 15W amp vs a 500W amp would produce vastly different volume levels.
> 
> You should NEVER have to touch the gains once everything is level matched, and calibrated, but you can set the calibration volume anywhere where it gives you conversation level sweeps. In a car with 15W amps, that may be at -20 MS-8 volume, in a car with 500W amps it may be at -50.
> 
> I think you need to read the MS-8 FAQ thread to get a better understanding of what you need to do to get the best results. That will also tell you how to access the hidden menu.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq.html


Great, I have that bookmarked already, I'll comb through it again and put a little more attention into it. 

So I have to set my gains by level matching my mid range and tweeters, and THEN run a sweep using whatever MS-8 volume level makes it loud enough for the bi-aural microphones.... then hope the hiss goes away. I'll read through that thread and report back. Thank you!


----------



## dengland

t3sn4f2 said:


> Much more important to get a capable speaker, in this case since the oe center doesn't look capable. Matching tonality is much less important period since the source location of each speaker will change each speaker's 'tonality' to something new. It does look nice though, to have all three match. And that always makes everyone enjoy their system more.


Thanks t3. I came across this too after rereading the FAQ:

_"Andy Wehmeyer :
Be sure to have a separate EQ devoted to the center channel. The timbre has to match the left and right pretty closely, but there's no need to use the same speaker. That's a good rule of thumb for home audio, but it's less important for cars where the response depends more on the location than the original frequency response of the speaker"_


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## subwoofery

DuffmasterFresh said:


> Great, I have that bookmarked already, I'll comb through it again and put a little more attention into it.
> 
> So I have to set my gains by level matching my mid range and tweeters, and THEN run a sweep using whatever MS-8 volume level makes it loud enough for the bi-aural microphones.... then hope the hiss goes away. I'll read through that thread and report back. Thank you!


Figure I'd ask, do you increase the level of the MS-8 after calibration? 
Calibration @ -20dB 
Listenning @ -5dB for eg.

Kelvin


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

subwoofery said:


> Figure I'd ask, do you increase the level of the MS-8 after calibration?
> Calibration @ -20dB
> Listenning @ -5dB for eg.
> 
> Kelvin


Not usually. I have tried many configurations actually. I get static hiss even if I calibrate at -20. I get hiss if I calibrate at -30. I get hiss if I calibrate at -20 and then go to -10. I don't get hiss while it is calibrating (I don't think). I'll check and see if it's dead quiet between calibration steps. 

Right now I'm trying to figure out the best way to level match my speakers. I get a phone app and then go to the output diagnostics screen and tell it to play static on one speaker. Then what? Do I hold the phone one foot away from each speaker and record the dB reading? What dB should each speaker be set to? Or does it only matter that they are all the same dB? Then adjust the gain until the midrange and tweeters read the same dB?


----------



## kaigoss69

DuffmasterFresh said:


> Not usually. I have tried many configurations actually. I get static hiss even if I calibrate at -20. I get hiss if I calibrate at -30. I get hiss if I calibrate at -20 and then go to -10. I don't get hiss while it is calibrating (I don't think). I'll check and see if it's dead quiet between calibration steps.
> 
> Right now I'm trying to figure out the best way to level match my speakers. I get a phone app and then go to the output diagnostics screen and tell it to play static on one speaker. Then what? Do I hold the phone one foot away from each speaker and record the dB reading? What dB should each speaker be set to? Or does it only matter that they are all the same dB? Then adjust the gain until the midrange and tweeters read the same dB?


You want to take the dB readings at the head position. Otherwise, you have the right idea.


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

kaigoss69 said:


> You want to take the dB readings at the head position. Otherwise, you have the right idea.


Seeing as my mids are on the same gain control and my tweeters are on the same gain control, I only need to level match the left tweeter and left midbass while sitting in the driver seat and the phone at head level... which would automatically level match the right side of the car as well right?

Is there a target dB I should be hitting for this or should I get my amps to 2V (or isn't it 2.8V?) and then tweak the gain from there by using the dB readings? Andy quote "Start by setting the gains on the amps to the 2V setting. When you do acoustic calibration, start with MS-8's volume at -40."

Was there a recommended sweep level set in dB yet, "Between 85 and 90 dB is good." is something Andy said but I don't know what he is saying this for.


----------



## kaigoss69

DuffmasterFresh said:


> Seeing as my mids are on the same gain control and my tweeters are on the same gain control, I only need to level match the left tweeter and left midbass while sitting in the driver seat and the phone at head level... which would automatically level match the right side of the car as well right?
> 
> Is there a target dB I should be hitting for this or should I get my amps to 2V (or isn't it 2.8V?) and then tweak the gain from there by using the dB readings? Andy quote "Start by setting the gains on the amps to the 2V setting. When you do acoustic calibration, start with MS-8's volume at -40."
> 
> Was there a recommended sweep level set in dB yet, "Between 85 and 90 dB is good." is something Andy said but I don't know what he is saying this for.


Yep, once you're level matched and you get a good calibration, then I would recommend to tweak the gains again to achieve the "as loud as you'd ever want it level", with the MS-8 at -6 dB and the HU at max unclipped volume. So you would either raise or lower the amp gains by the same amount, then recalibrate. In order to have the lowest possible noise floor, your amp gains need to be set such that the overall volume is _just_ as loud as you'd ever want it to be. If you want a little more headroom, you can try setting the MS-8 volume at -10, leaving you at least 5dB volume headroom from the processor.


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## DuffmasterFresh

kaigoss69 said:


> Yep, once you're level matched and you get a good calibration, then I would recommend to tweak the gains again to achieve the "as loud as you'd ever want it level", with the MS-8 at -6 dB and the HU at max unclipped volume. So you would either raise or lower the amp gains by the same amount, then recalibrate. In order to have the lowest possible noise floor, your amp gains need to be set such that the overall volume is _just_ as loud as you'd ever want it to be. If you want a little more headroom, you can try setting the MS-8 volume at -10, leaving you at least 5dB volume headroom from the processor.


Well I just set my amp LP filter for the midrange speakers to 500Hz and I set the Tweeter HP to 500Hz seeing as the pink noise from the MS-8 test menu doesn't have any filters. Last thing I want to do is blow something up. 

I level matched using the app so both mid range and tweeter are at 65dB according to the app. This required I have the tweeter gain at zero and the midrange gain up about 20%. Then I set the MS8 volume to -30 which brought my speakers to 53dB. I then used this -30 for calibration. To get the volume I want at -30, my headunit has to be at 40 out of 45. So I set the MS8 to -20, then -10 and the hiss ramped right back up. I could never in my wildest dreams use -10 for average listening volumes with the hiss being so prominent. Should I make a mute plug for any reason?

Side note: the hissing noise only changes volume with the MS-8 volume control and pressing mute on the MS-8 all but eliminates the hissing. With current gain settings as described above, -20dB on the MS8 volume makes the hissing tolerable but the volume too low at 35/45. MS8 gives me OK OK OK at 33 out of 45 volume and using an SMD DD-1 from a shop I figured out clipping on my headunit was at 42 out of 45. Unfortunately, all I have with me right now is a DMM. I'm not too confident this will fix my noise issue, but I really hope it does. I heard the MS-8 was suppose to be silent.

I went to set my 4-channel amp gain again and the weirdest thing happened. A 1000Hz 0dB test tone being taking from the factory headunit, then spit out through the MS8 using the pass-thru mode right to the amp worked for Ch 3+4 which is the tweeters. I got it to read 20V AC. However, when I went to set Ch1+2 which is the midrange drivers I only got a reading of 0.033V no matter how much I turned the gain up. I decided to plug the positive speaker terminal back in to hear if it was working and sure enough, turning the gain up did make the mid range driver louder. I tried two DMMs and both read the same.


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## kaigoss69

DuffmasterFresh said:


> However, when I went to set Ch1+2 which is the midrange drivers I only got a reading of 0.033V no matter how much I turned the gain up. I decided to plug the positive speaker terminal back in to hear if it was working and sure enough, turning the gain up did make the mid range driver louder. I tried two DMMs and both read the same.


Did you turn the amp LP filter back off???


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## DuffmasterFresh

kaigoss69 said:


> Did you turn the amp LP filter back off???


Yes I did turn the amp LP back off seeing as I had disconnected all positive speaker connections, there was no need for the LP.


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## dileepsv

with a pioneer avic z150bh headunit and two amps to actively run both front and rear speakers, would MS8 make a big impact ?


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## DuffmasterFresh

dileepsv said:


> with a pioneer avic z150bh headunit and two amps to actively run both front and rear speakers, would MS8 make a big impact ?


You bet. You're amplifiers only increase the volume of your music and add a bit of clarity, they don't time align anything. The MS8 will time align, signal process, and a bunch of other stuff to make your music sound out of this world.


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## Lanson

dileepsv said:


> with a pioneer avic z150bh headunit and two amps to actively run both front and rear speakers, would MS8 make a big impact ?


except I would suggest that the rear speakers do not need any real amplification. In an MS-8 system, they serve as rear fill, and if you are going to use them at all, they will just be ambient and out of phase info. Thus you could just amp them from the MS-8 itself, and be happy. This then frees up channels you could use on the front stage, in an active arrangement (or bridged for more midbass, etc.)


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## machinehead

I remember when this thread was first started......


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## chofilena

Why am I losing frequncies and hearing distortions? I'm using the Emma 2 disc on track 8 ( left to right) . When the guitar starts to move i get to hear distortions on my right speakers and starts to lose some frequencies when it hits left center and center but gets better on right center and right. Worst if I listen to music using the ipod bass sounds really bad and distorted. What could be the problem? Im already tired of all the trials, time and stress. I wish there is just one procedure to do and make it sound right. For every tunning there is a trade off if the front speakers sounds good the rear or the sub will sound bad.


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## DuffmasterFresh

I replaced all of the power and ground wire and started soldering all of my wire connections. So far, no reduction of hissing. I am starting to think that it's either the factory signal or the MS8 is defective. My two amps and the MS8 all ground to a distribution block which then grounds to the frame of the car by a 4 inch long ground cable. 

When I was using the MS8 without amplifiers it was whisper quiet. I can't believe that having amplifiers added to the system at zero gain would amplify the noise so much as to be heard at average listening levels when a song dips in loudness. 

Should I add a ground loop isolator? I really don't want to add one if I can fix this, I consider them to be band aids. Should I add 20uF capacitors to my tweeters, would that help? Right now they simply connect right to my amp.


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## more_sq

try a different grounding location


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## 14642

chofilena said:


> Why am I losing frequncies and hearing distortions? I'm using the Emma 2 disc on track 8 ( left to right) . When the guitar starts to move i get to hear distortions on my right speakers and starts to lose some frequencies when it hits left center and center but gets better on right center and right. Worst if I listen to music using the ipod bass sounds really bad and distorted. What could be the problem? Im already tired of all the trials, time and stress. I wish there is just one procedure to do and make it sound right. For every tunning there is a trade off if the front speakers sounds good the rear or the sub will sound bad.



If you are using only front speakers without rears or sides, then turn off Logic7. It steers some sounds to the rear. Also, if you are listening to low-bit rate compressed files or files you've downloaded from torrent sites that are of questionable quality, turn off Logic 7. Low bit rates that don't preserve phase break the algorithm.


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## 14642

DuffmasterFresh said:


> I replaced all of the power and ground wire and started soldering all of my wire connections. So far, no reduction of hissing. I am starting to think that it's either the factory signal or the MS8 is defective. My two amps and the MS8 all ground to a distribution block which then grounds to the frame of the car by a 4 inch long ground cable.
> 
> When I was using the MS8 without amplifiers it was whisper quiet. I can't believe that having amplifiers added to the system at zero gain would amplify the noise so much as to be heard at average listening levels when a song dips in loudness.
> 
> Should I add a ground loop isolator? I really don't want to add one if I can fix this, I consider them to be band aids. Should I add 20uF capacitors to my tweeters, would that help? Right now they simply connect right to my amp.


there could be two reasons for this:

1. your head unit includes some cut at high frequencies that MS-8 is boosting in the input EQ. Try plugging something into the Aux input to check.
2. Your tweeters aren't loud enough without a bunch of EQ at high frequencies. Turn off processing in MS-8's menu to check. If you hear a bunch of hiss with something plugged into the aux in and with processing defeated, then it isn't just the EQ boosting because you have no highs somewhere.


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## matt1212

*Andy*, I have inquired about this before but still can't seem to get a straight answer. My setup is listed in my sig.

*1. How would you recommend setting the amp gains with an MS-8?* 
I ask because I believe that any adjustment of the gains after acoustic calibration will void the calibration profile. I.e. if the subwoofer speaker-level signal was clipping on a scope, attenuating the gain will result in the MS-8's subwoofer setting being too low. Recalibrating may result in more clipping. My HU has 4V pre-outs and is of fair quality (although the MS-8 requires HU volume to be at 55/62 in order to get a "signal ok" in input setup - this is with the track coming through the HU's iPod hookup. Track was downloaded through JBL EU's website so it should be ok). The Slash amps allow the gains to be set with just a DMM and looking for certain output voltages on each channel. What would you recommend?

*2.* I read ~11V to ground at each of the 3 amplifiers remote in. I do not recall if I ran a separate wire to each or daisy-chained from MS-8 to amp to amp to amp, although this shouldn't matter. *Is this normal?* Functionality is all there...

*3. Has there been an update for MS-8 issued yet?* I purchased mine back around the release in 2010 if I recall. If so what is the most current version number so I can check it against mine (I believe this is under "About").


*I also want to mention this for all MS-8 users.*
In the past I have always used the HU for volume control. I would set the MS-8 volume around -5 and listen to my HU at a maximum of 52/62. The last few days I have left the HU at 55/62 (where the MS-8 gives me a "signal ok" during input setup) and used the MS-8 for volume control. Andy had mentioned way back that this was optimal so I decided to try it. In my opinion the difference is very notable. This may have something to do with the HU signal being where the MS-8 likes it, or due to a higher signal to noise ratio at the MS-8 inputs.

Also, the remote signal is received by the display screen. I have only recently come to realize this...


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## 14642

First, since you're using an aftermarket head unit, just skip the input setup. You don't need the setup CD. If the speakers are of similar sensitivity, then setting the input sensitivity of the amplifiers to the 2V setting should be fine. If the system isn't loud enough for you with that setting, then turn all the gains up a little. You don't need the volt meter.


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## Duckstu

Pre-out voltage question

I have switched vehicles and the new one came with a Pioneer Navi unit in the dash that has 2v pre-outs.

Previously I was using an Eclipse CD700 with 8v pre-outs,.. and was having trouble getting enough level. It would be plenty loud enough with the radio (and it's compresses junk),.. but not with CD, or Ipod.

Question,.. will I be unhappy if I install this processor after a radio with only 2v pre's?


----------



## Jepalan

Duckstu said:


> Pre-out voltage question
> I have switched vehicles and the new one came with a Pioneer Navi unit in the dash that has 2v pre-outs.
> Previously I was using an Eclipse CD700 with 8v pre-outs,.. and was having trouble getting enough level. It would be plenty loud enough with the radio (and it's compresses junk),.. but not with CD, or Ipod.
> Question,.. will I be unhappy if I install this processor after a radio with only 2v pre's?


Did you set amplifier gains properly? You don't install a processor to boost signal level - that is what a line-driver is for. That said, the MS-8 has 2v inputs and 2v outputs, so it won't improve nor worsen your signal level problem. It will however greatly improve many other aspects of the system (390+ pages of info to read on this). I have no idea if you will be satisfied. If the only thing you want is to make things "more louder", then no, the MS-8 probably won't help.


----------



## Duckstu

Jepalan said:


> Did you set amplifier gains properly? You don't install a processor to boost signal level - that is what a line-driver is for. That said, the MS-8 has 2v inputs and 2v outputs, so it won't improve nor worsen your signal level problem. It will however greatly improve many other aspects of the system (390+ pages of info to read on this). I have no idea if you will be satisfied. If the only thing you want is to make things "more louder", then no, the MS-8 probably won't help.


I wasn't trying to make it "more louder", just trying to get it loud enough to hear while the car is moving. Prior to inserting the MS-8 into my previous car,.. the system was plenty loud enough. rarely did I turn the volume past 25 (out of 32 or so). After inserting the MS-8,.. it was very hard to get enough gain. One the freeway I had to have it within 1-3 clicks from all the way up,... and even then it was hard to hear clearly.

I tried Andy's advice of setting the amps to their 2v positions,.. but that would hardly play above the road noise. Not even adequate for engine off listening.

After some advice and trying the calibration at various levels,.. I got it to be a lot better, but still a ways from ideal.

What I suspect may be an issue (perhaps just one of a few issues) is one amp being at a higher gain than the others,.. and the MS-8 is sending all the signal it can to one set of channels,.. and not much to others,.. but as discussed here before,... there doesn't seem to be a way of reading what the relative outputs are coming out of the MS-8. If there were,.. that info could be used to make adjustments to the gain knobs on the various amps,... and the cal run again.

I saw a post here the other day by kaigoss about "setting the levels in the secret menu",... I think I got into that a couple of times,.. but didn't see anything where I could see relative levels,.. or alter them.

I still don't know what this "Kaigoss method" is that I keep seeing mentioned. Any link to a description of iot? (Would be cool to have quick-links in the first post for this type of stuff).


I was running a combo of early 1990's vintage Soundstream amps,.. and newer JL Slash stuff. The new setup will utilize some 4 and 6 channel McIntosh amps that I've had lying around for a decade or more. It's been a long time since I've used them,.. but I seem to remember the Mac amps having a hard time getting enough level with the 1v pre-outs from the Alpines of the era. 2v isn't a lot better.

So I should probably run an 8 channel line driver after this unit to get normal playing volume? Something that has a master gain on the output side so that after doing the calibration I can turn everything up together?

Any recommendations on what the best one is? Something with a SNR well into three digits? Would be cool if Audio Research or someone made a 12v tube line driver huh? Maybe I can get Butler to do one?


----------



## kaigoss69

Jepalan said:


> Did you set amplifier gains properly? You don't install a processor to boost signal level - that is what a line-driver is for. That said, the MS-8 has 2v inputs and 2v outputs, so it won't improve nor worsen your signal level problem. It will however greatly improve many other aspects of the system (390+ pages of info to read on this). I have no idea if you will be satisfied. If the only thing you want is to make things "more louder", then no, the MS-8 probably won't help.


I'm currently feeding the MS-8 AUX RCA inputs with a FiiO DAC that has 1.45V RMS outs. I'm struggling to find the right gain setting - too much gain and I get engine noise, too little gain and it won't get loud enough. I'm toying with the idea of using an AudioControl Matrix Line driver after the MS-8 to bump up the signal to the different amp channels so that I can reduce the gains and keep the noise floor below audible levels. I was thinking about using a line driver before the MS-8, but I'm not sure I will be able to apply much boost before clipping the inputs. With the amp inputs being able to accept up to 8V (compared to 2.8V for the MS-8 inputs), it seems to me that more S/N ratio can be achieved by using the line driver after the MS-8.


----------



## thumperv2

Duckstu said:


> I wasn't trying to make it "more louder", just trying to get it loud enough to hear while the car is moving. Prior to inserting the MS-8 into my previous car,.. the system was plenty loud enough. rarely did I turn the volume past 25 (out of 32 or so). After inserting the MS-8,.. it was very hard to get enough gain. One the freeway I had to have it within 1-3 clicks from all the way up,... and even then it was hard to hear clearly.
> 
> I tried Andy's advice of setting the amps to their 2v positions,.. but that would hardly play above the road noise. Not even adequate for engine off listening.
> 
> After some advice and trying the calibration at various levels,.. I got it to be a lot better, but still a ways from ideal.
> 
> What I suspect may be an issue (perhaps just one of a few issues) is one amp being at a higher gain than the others,.. and the MS-8 is sending all the signal it can to one set of channels,.. and not much to others,.. but as discussed here before,... there doesn't seem to be a way of reading what the relative outputs are coming out of the MS-8. If there were,.. that info could be used to make adjustments to the gain knobs on the various amps,... and the cal run again.
> 
> I saw a post here the other day by kaigoss about "setting the levels in the secret menu",... I think I got into that a couple of times,.. but didn't see anything where I could see relative levels,.. or alter them.
> 
> I still don't know what this "Kaigoss method" is that I keep seeing mentioned. Any link to a description of iot? (Would be cool to have quick-links in the first post for this type of stuff).
> 
> 
> I was running a combo of early 1990's vintage Soundstream amps,.. and newer JL Slash stuff. The new setup will utilize some 4 and 6 channel McIntosh amps that I've had lying around for a decade or more. It's been a long time since I've used them,.. but I seem to remember the Mac amps having a hard time getting enough level with the 1v pre-outs from the Alpines of the era. 2v isn't a lot better.
> 
> So I should probably run an 8 channel line driver after this unit to get normal playing volume? Something that has a master gain on the output side so that after doing the calibration I can turn everything up together?
> 
> Any recommendations on what the best one is? Something with a SNR well into three digits? Would be cool if Audio Research or someone made a 12v tube line driver huh? Maybe I can get Butler to do one?


what volume on the MS8 are you performing your acoustic measurement at?


----------



## Duckstu

thumperv2 said:


> what volume on the MS8 are you performing your acoustic measurement at?


At first I was doing them at -6 or so. Then on someone's advice I tried lower. First -20,.. then -24.

That helped a bit,.. but at some point the measurements are going to be worthless because they're 20-30 db below actual listening levels.

I think -20 was the last few that I did. It's been 6 months or so,.. and at the moment the MS-8 isn;t even in a car. I'm debating on whether to use it in this vehicle. I looked up Tru 8 channel line drivers and GULP,... they're over $600.


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## kaigoss69

I calibrate at -45 db. Does that have anything to do with final listening volume? - Nope!


----------



## Duckstu

kaigoss69 said:


> I calibrate at -45 db. Does that have anything to do with final listening volume? - Nope!


Ahh,.. in my unit it did. Calibrating at -6 or -24 had perhaps a 10db effect on final max volume.

Do you get a descent EQ cal? At that level in my previous system I could hardly hear the calibration tones,... so I guessed that the cal file wouldn't be very representative of how the system would perform at normal levels. Perhaps this is untrue?

Also,.. can you tell me what the Kaigoss method is? I've searched (found it mentioned many times),.. and I've asked many times,.. and no one seems to be able to tell me.


Thanks in advance for the help.


----------



## thumperv2

Duckstu said:


> At first I was doing them at -6 or so. Then on someone's advice I tried lower. First -20,.. then -24.
> 
> That helped a bit,.. but at some point the measurements are going to be worthless because they're 20-30 db below actual listening levels.
> 
> I think -20 was the last few that I did. It's been 6 months or so,.. and at the moment the MS-8 isn;t even in a car. I'm debating on whether to use it in this vehicle. I looked up Tru 8 channel line drivers and GULP,... they're over $600.



the ms8 doesnt have any issues with volume if you use it properly. Try calibrating at -45. Once it is all done, turn it back up to -5 or so. plenty of volume.


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## kaigoss69

Duckstu said:


> Ahh,.. in my unit it did. Calibrating at -6 or -24 had perhaps a 10db effect on final max volume.
> 
> Do you get a descent EQ cal? At that level in my previous system I could hardly hear the calibration tones,... so I guessed that the cal file wouldn't be very representative of how the system would perform at normal levels. Perhaps this is untrue?
> 
> Also,.. can you tell me what the Kaigoss method is? I've searched (found it mentioned many times),.. and I've asked many times,.. and no one seems to be able to tell me.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for the help.


That's because at -6dB you likely clipped the mics. I have tested this before, the final volume (or EQ/FR) is unaffected between -25 and -50 dB calibration volume, at least in my set-up.

The "Kaigoss mod" is used if you have weak midbass. I believe it is in the FAQ thread if you're interested.


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> there could be two reasons for this:
> 
> 1. your head unit includes some cut at high frequencies that MS-8 is boosting in the input EQ. Try plugging something into the Aux input to check.
> 2. Your tweeters aren't loud enough without a bunch of EQ at high frequencies. Turn off processing in MS-8's menu to check. If you hear a bunch of hiss with something plugged into the aux in and with processing defeated, then it isn't just the EQ boosting because you have no highs somewhere.


Plugging something into the MS8 AUX input reduces the hiss, but it's still there. I'll check this a second time just to be sure. If I turn the tweeters up before calibration, they would blow my damn ears off. With all gains at zero and running -30dB on the MS8, I can hear all the calibration noises as though someone was having a conversation next to me.

If the stock headunit is cutting high frequencies and the input EQ is boosting them, what can I do about that? Before adding the amplifiers, I don't recall any hissing from the MS8 powering all of my speakers. After calibration, the system sounds insanely wonderful, just the hissing is there if I want to turn the volume down. 

I tried a ground loop isolator, it didn't work. I tried a new grounding location, it didn't work. All new wire, didn't work. Soldered all of my connections, didn't work. Level matched my tweeters and midbass before running the calibration, didn't work. The hissing appears even before I start the calibration process. Once the MS8 turns on, the hissing static is there.


----------



## Ryanu

DuffmasterFresh said:


> Plugging something into the MS8 AUX input reduces the hiss, but it's still there. I'll check this a second time just to be sure. If I turn the tweeters up before calibration, they would blow my damn ears off. With all gains at zero and running -30dB on the MS8, I can hear all the calibration noises as though someone was having a conversation next to me.
> 
> If the stock headunit is cutting high frequencies and the input EQ is boosting them, what can I do about that? Before adding the amplifiers, I don't recall any hissing from the MS8 powering all of my speakers. After calibration, the system sounds insanely wonderful, just the hissing is there if I want to turn the volume down.
> 
> I tried a ground loop isolator, it didn't work. I tried a new grounding location, it didn't work. All new wire, didn't work. Soldered all of my connections, didn't work. Level matched my tweeters and midbass before running the calibration, didn't work. The hissing appears even before I start the calibration process. Once the MS8 turns on, the hissing static is there.


If i am not mistaken.. it was mentioned somewhere in this topic saying that unplug ur mic prior to click 'done' after calibration. Maybr u can try that if u haven't do so. My 2 cents.


----------



## 14642

DuffmasterFresh said:


> Plugging something into the MS8 AUX input reduces the hiss, but it's still there. I'll check this a second time just to be sure. If I turn the tweeters up before calibration, they would blow my damn ears off. With all gains at zero and running -30dB on the MS8, I can hear all the calibration noises as though someone was having a conversation next to me.
> 
> If the stock headunit is cutting high frequencies and the input EQ is boosting them, what can I do about that? Before adding the amplifiers, I don't recall any hissing from the MS8 powering all of my speakers. After calibration, the system sounds insanely wonderful, just the hissing is there if I want to turn the volume down.
> 
> I tried a ground loop isolator, it didn't work. I tried a new grounding location, it didn't work. All new wire, didn't work. Soldered all of my connections, didn't work. Level matched my tweeters and midbass before running the calibration, didn't work. The hissing appears even before I start the calibration process. Once the MS8 turns on, the hissing static is there.


The problem isn't going to be fixed by running all new wire, adding a ground loop isolator, soldering, etc. I guess you found that out the hard way.

Does the hiss go away if you turn off processing? 

I'm trying to figure out if:

1. The hiss is caused by too much input EQ at high frequencies, or
2. Too much output EQ at high frequencies, or
3. Something else. 

If you'll help me do that by answering the questions, maybe we can figure this out.


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The problem isn't going to be fixed by running all new wire, adding a ground loop isolator, soldering, etc. I guess you found that out the hard way.
> 
> Does the hiss go away if you turn off processing?
> 
> I'm trying to figure out if:
> 
> 1. The hiss is caused by too much input EQ at high frequencies, or
> 2. Too much output EQ at high frequencies, or
> 3. Something else.
> 
> If you'll help me do that by answering the questions, maybe we can figure this out.


I ran new wire, did the ground loop, etc. so I could try to eliminate those as possible causes. Definitely found out the hard way but I'm getting desperate for a solution. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong.

- The hiss does NOT go away if I turn off Processing or Logic 7. It does not go away if I change seat locations either. 
- The hiss loudness is controlled by the MS8 volume control, so putting the MS8 at -5dB means the hiss is very loud. The headunit does not change the hiss volume.
- If I unplug the RCAs from the MS8, I hear the noise floor of the amps. Once I plug the MS8 back in, new noise is introduced. The noise sounds the same, only louder. 

I would absolutely love your help on this, Andy. I tried emailing JBL and it's been a week with no response from them.


----------



## dengland

I have lost track. Do you have the hiss on the 20W outputs of the MS-8 too?


----------



## Cruz5350

Cruz5350 said:


> Hey guys anybody know if the display cables will be back in stock soon? Or better yet anyone have one for sale I bought a used unit and didn't realize it was missing the cable I know stupid me for not checking more. The website shows it as not available. I also called JBL and left a voicemail hoping they'd return my call still nothing.
> 
> Thanks for the help!


A month later and still nothing I've called twice now speaking with product support in India who only says to call back in two weeks to order and still not in stock. I'm done messing around with this if anyone ones to buy an MS8 in perfect minus the display cable PM me an offer. I can't believe that the product support is so terrible.


----------



## CDT FAN

They're not helping their reputation any. Last year, I bought a used MS8 and needed a cable. They were quick to respond, but it was on backorder for a few months. I think it cost $12.

Didn't someone post a wiring diagram for it somewhere?


----------



## talan7

My remote was defective on my brand new MS8 when I had it installed so it wasn't calibrated for weeks. I called JBL customer support and spoke to a guy in India. They shipped a new remote out but it was a couple of weeks till I received it. They didn't charge me at all. They did see that I had previously opended a ticket on JBL.com for MS8 installation help so they must have realized that I did have the product and thus didn't require proof. I was impressed with the service, even though it took a LOT of patience on the phone dealing with the tech from India. he was polite so it made it easier. Just keep calling them,they should make good. I plan on buying another remote when I get a chance, and probably another screen as well.


----------



## Cruz5350

Well I'll be waiting for another month it looks like it just sucks that it's all hooked up and sitting in my car sounding like garbage.


----------



## maggie-g

Andy (or anyone who can assist)

I did the MS8 firmware update because of the bluetooth echo and now I have a turnoff pop in just my sub. I do not get a pop when it turns on. This did not happen before the update - the install did not change. Here is my current setup. Any thoughts on how to fix it?

stock HU 
MS8
MS 1004
MS 5001

the 5001 signal is connected to the 1004's RCA out as recommended here to get more midbass out of the ms8.


----------



## talan7

maggie-g said:


> Andy (or anyone who can assist)
> 
> I did the MS8 firmware update because of the bluetooth echo and now I have a turnoff pop in just my sub. I do not get a pop when it turns on. This did not happen before the update - the install did not change. Here is my current setup. Any thoughts on how to fix it?
> 
> stock HU
> MS8
> MS 1004
> MS 5001
> 
> the 5001 signal is connected to the 1004's RCA out as recommended here to get more midbass out of the ms8.


I've just been living with the bluetooth echo, besides, I don't do too much talking in my car anyway. I've also found that if you lower the volume the echo isn't much of a problem, my wife doesn't seem to mind, neither does my job.

BUT WAIT, YOU HAVE YOUR 5001 CONNECTED TO YOUR 1004? I HAVE BOTH AS WELL. IS IT A MARKED IMPROVEMENT IN MIDBASS? AND ECXACTLY HOW ARE THE TWO AMPS CONNECTED TO EACH OTHER AND TO THE MS8?


----------



## talan7

Quick question for anyone, as this thread is almost 400 pages. Do you have to re-calibrate if you turn down the inputs on the amps connected to the ms8? I have the 1004 and 5001 and I was noticing some static in my treble and read that the input levels could be too high. I lowered the inputs on the A1004 and the static went away. Do I need to now recalibrate?


----------



## maggie-g

no need to yell at me. for the RCAs, the 5001 is connected to the 1004 which in turn is connected to the MS8


----------



## kaigoss69

Maggie, did you set the turn off delay after the update?


----------



## maggie-g

I did not. Didnt realize the update would effect it. Ill give it a try. Thanks! Kaigoss, you are a genius for your midbass method bye the way. You are a lifesaver.


----------



## maggie-g

ok so the turn off delay was already set to 2 seconds. I tried it at 5 seconds and 0 seconds . all options still left me with a turn off pop. Weird thing is that it is only with the sub, not any of the other speakers. I have a feeling this is because Im using the kaigoss method for the sub. Doesnt make any sense to me though because there wasnt a pop before the firware update.


----------



## kaigoss69

talan7 said:


> Quick question for anyone, as this thread is almost 400 pages. Do you have to re-calibrate if you turn down the inputs on the amps connected to the ms8? I have the 1004 and 5001 and I was noticing some static in my treble and read that the input levels could be too high. I lowered the inputs on the A1004 and the static went away. Do I need to now recalibrate?



I would, since you're changing the acoustic crossover point.


----------



## Duckstu

Crossover point question.

I'll be using tweeters that I want to cut off below 2,600 hz,... and mid-bass drivers that get more sensitive above 1,000 (so typically you's start crossing them over at 900 ish to help get rid of the hump)

Do I just aim for the middle when selecting a crossover point in the MS-8? (1,300 hz)?

I'm nervous to select a point so low,... as I don't know where exactly that puts the tweeter in actuality.


Or do I select a point closer to the tweeter's 2,600 and let the MS-8 EQ down the hump in the woofer between 900 and 1,500 hz,.. and then crossover the woofer at say 18 db per oct above that at say 1,300)? Which would mean entering a crossover point of 1,950.

*I guess what I'm asking is,*... how far up and down from the selected center frequency is the MS-8 actually going to cross over the drivers?


----------



## kaigoss69

Duckstu said:


> Crossover point question.
> 
> I'll be using tweeters that I want to cut off below 2,600 hz,... and mid-bass drivers that get more sensitive above 1,000 (so typically you's start crossing them over at 900 ish to help get rid of the hump)
> 
> Do I just aim for the middle when selecting a crossover point in the MS-8? (1,300 hz)?
> 
> I'm nervous to select a point so low,... as I don't know where exactly that puts the tweeter in actuality.
> 
> 
> Or do I select a point closer to the tweeter's 2,600 and let the MS-8 EQ down the hump in the woofer between 900 and 1,500 hz,.. and then crossover the woofer at say 18 db per oct above that at say 1,300)? Which would mean entering a crossover point of 1,950.
> 
> *I guess what I'm asking is,*... how far up and down from the selected center frequency is the MS-8 actually going to cross over the drivers?




Not sure I follow you completely... But in general you want to cross at about twice your tweeter's FS.


----------



## taibanl

talan7 said:


> Quick question for anyone, as this thread is almost 400 pages. Do you have to re-calibrate if you turn down the inputs on the amps connected to the ms8? I have the 1004 and 5001 and I was noticing some static in my treble and read that the input levels could be too high. I lowered the inputs on the A1004 and the static went away. Do I need to now recalibrate?


 not if you adjust ALL channels by the same amount. Otherwise kaigoss' comment applies.


----------



## Duckstu

kaigoss69 said:


> Not sure I follow you completely... But in general you want to cross at about twice your tweeter's FS.


Yeah, a bit confusing.

OK, so I have graphs of the tweeter's and woofer's response curves,..... and the woofer gets louder above 1,000 hz,.. and the tweeter get's louder below 2,200 hz.

Of course the woofer can simply be corrected with EQ,.. and get crossed over higher than that, (say at 1,800 or so).. but if you run a lot of power to these tweeters and cross them over below 2,200 or so they start having issues.

So they *need* to be crossed at 2,600 ish.

*What I'm wondering is*,... what crossover frequency do I need to select in the MS-8 to achieve that? (Remember that the MS-8 does not allow you to select the tweeter OR the woofer's crossover point,... only a SINGLE point somewhere in the middle,... and it figures out the rest.

Typically I would build a 2-step crossover passive (not 2nd order) for the woofer. So I would put a 6db per oct at 900 hz,.. and another 6 or 12 db worth at 1,800 - 2,000.

But passives cause phase shift near the crossover point,.. which is what we get to avoid with a digital setup like the MS.

But I still want to keep the tweeters from breaking up and bottoming out at high volumes,.... so I need to know how far above the center crossover freq in the MS-8 that it will actually cut off the tweeter.


----------



## 14642

First, phase is a function of frequency response. Anytime the signal rolls off or has a peak, the phase changes. Doesn't matter. I'd set the crossover to 2500Hz, 4th order and let MS-8 do its work.


----------



## maggie-g

maggie-g said:


> Andy (or anyone who can assist)
> 
> I did the MS8 firmware update because of the bluetooth echo and now I have a turnoff pop in just my sub. I do not get a pop when it turns on. This did not happen before the update - the install did not change. Here is my current setup. Any thoughts on how to fix it?
> 
> stock HU
> MS8
> MS 1004
> MS 5001
> 
> the 5001 signal is connected to the 1004's RCA out as recommended here to get more midbass out of the ms8.


bumping for some assistance. Thanks!


----------



## talan7

kaigoss69 said:


> I would, since you're changing the acoustic crossover point.


I also have a bass knob for my sub. When using this, does it change the acoustic crossover point as well? I don't know exaclty what I should be doing with the bass knob. How does it fit in with the bass adjustment in the MS8? The knob does add subtract bass to the sub but I get either to much or too little and it makes things muddy IMO.

Also, does someone have a schematic for connecting the 5001 to the 1004 for better midbass?


----------



## 14642

maggie-g said:


> bumping for some assistance. Thanks!


Instead of connecting the 5001 to the output of the 1004, why not connect it to the MS8? Then, identify the subs as front low. If you do that, MS-8 will time align them and set the level in a different way.


----------



## maggie-g

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Instead of connecting the 5001 to the output of the 1004, why not connect it to the MS8? Then, identify the subs as front low. If you do that, MS-8 will time align them and set the level in a different way.


I had it setup that way initially but had zero midbass. There was a lot of information in songs I am familiar with that was non existent. Any tips?


----------



## dengland

maggie-g said:


> I had it setup that way initially but had zero midbass. There was a lot of information in songs I am familiar with that was non existent. Any tips?


You absolutely positive that everything is in phase? I had finally got mine straightened out and it made all the difference in the world in my Ram 1500. 

DODGE RAM FORUM - Ram Forums and Owners Club! - Dodge Truck Forum - View Single Post - MS-8 Install in 2014 Limited with 8.4AN

I am only using the MS-8 internal amps at the moment.


----------



## maggie-g

I read a post on here from Andy (paraphrasing) that the MS8 is designed to have the sub perform a lot of the midbass because it will always do a better job.


----------



## SQLnovice

Edited, mistake.


----------



## emoon3

maggie-g said:


> I did not. Didnt realize the update would effect it. Ill give it a try. Thanks! *Kaigoss, you are a genius for your midbass method* bye the way. You are a lifesaver.


Yes, it was brilliant!


----------



## swargolet

It's been 2 years and a LOT of experimenting and I finally have a sound that I'm relatively happy with. My main issue was that I absolutely hated the target curve that the MS-8 did. HERE is an image of 4 curves I tried. Red is what the MS-8 did and blue is my final one. I usually bring the sub level down a couple notches as well on the MS8.

The only things I'm still trying to figure out is why my highs are still somewhat harsh which I think may be an install issue and why the volume is so low. Prior to the MS-8, I could make it obnoxiously loud yet still be crystal clear. Now, I can only get maybe about 60%-70% of the levels I got before and this is with adjusting the gains afterwards. Any ideas why this is happening or somethings I could try?


Also, a non MS-8 questions. I recently tried a song from one of the IASCA CDs and at relatively higher volumes, my tweeter distorted a ridiculous amount. I have More MT23 tweeters which are pretty nice and crossed over at 2800hz I believe. Am I just crossed too low or what is going on?


----------



## tbomb

swargolet said:


> It's been 2 years and a LOT of experimenting and I finally have a sound that I'm relatively happy with. My main issue was that I absolutely hated the target curve that the MS-8 did. HERE is an image of 4 curves I tried. Red is what the MS-8 did and blue is my final one. I usually bring the sub level down a couple notches as well on the MS8.
> 
> The only things I'm still trying to figure out is why my highs are still somewhat harsh which I think may be an install issue and why the volume is so low. Prior to the MS-8, I could make it obnoxiously loud yet still be crystal clear. Now, I can only get maybe about 60%-70% of the levels I got before and this is with adjusting the gains afterwards. Any ideas why this is happening or somethings I could try?
> 
> 
> Also, a non MS-8 questions. I recently tried a song from one of the IASCA CDs and at relatively higher volumes, *my tweeter distorted a ridiculous amount.* I have More MT23 tweeters which are pretty nice and crossed over at 2800hz I believe. Am I just crossed too low or what is going on?


Sounds like more an install/setup issue. Possibly calibrating at to low a volume and/or possible untamed reflections that ms8 cant overcome.


----------



## swargolet

tbomb said:


> Sounds like more an install/setup issue. Possibly calibrating at to low a volume and/or possible untamed reflections that ms8 cant overcome.


The distortion sounded more like the speaker reaching its limits (I think). The harshness at some frequencies may be caused by reflections as the tweeters are installed in the stock dash location firing at the windshield but I do not know. Everyone keeps suggesting certain volume levels to calibrate the MS8 at, but that doesnt help at all since one person's -30 could be wildly different than another persons. Is there a certain dB level that it should be calibrated at? 

Oh, I just remembered one more small issue I had with my recent calibration and that is that my image is shifted about 2 feet to the right. What would cause this? Not turning my head far enough in one direction when doing the calibration?

Does anyone know if the measurements at each seat are independent or are they calculated together? The reason I ask is because I'm wondering if I could sit in the driver seat for both the driver and passenger measurements and turn my head differently. Then A/B the two just by switching seat positions in the MS8.


----------



## CDT FAN

emoon3 said:


> Yes, it was brilliant!


What are you guys referring to?


----------



## T3mpest

swargolet said:


> The distortion sounded more like the speaker reaching its limits (I think). The harshness at some frequencies may be caused by reflections as the tweeters are installed in the stock dash location firing at the windshield but I do not know. Everyone keeps suggesting certain volume levels to calibrate the MS8 at, but that doesnt help at all since one person's -30 could be wildly different than another persons. Is there a certain dB level that it should be calibrated at?
> 
> Oh, I just remembered one more small issue I had with my recent calibration and that is that my image is shifted about 2 feet to the right. What would cause this? Not turning my head far enough in one direction when doing the calibration?
> 
> Does anyone know if the measurements at each seat are independent or are they calculated together? The reason I ask is because I'm wondering if I could sit in the driver seat for both the driver and passenger measurements and turn my head differently. Then A/B the two just by switching seat positions in the MS8.



Independent. Only time they average if you do more than 1 set you'll have 3 options. You'll do driver and passenger then it'll give you a front, which is the averaged between the 2. I always do 2 sweeps that way I have 3 curves and can pick which one sounds the best


----------



## T3mpest

dengland said:


> You absolutely positive that everything is in phase? I had finally got mine straightened out and it made all the difference in the world in my Ram 1500.
> 
> DODGE RAM FORUM - Ram Forums and Owners Club! - Dodge Truck Forum - View Single Post - MS-8 Install in 2014 Limited with 8.4AN
> 
> I am only using the MS-8 internal amps at the moment.


same. My MS-8 HATED my subwoofer when I identified it as a sub. Wouldn't EQ it, anything, just bleh. Once i set it up as the lower end of my front speakers, it EQ's it properly and overall tune is much better.


----------



## subwoofery

swargolet said:


> The distortion sounded more like the speaker reaching its limits (I think). The harshness at some frequencies may be caused by reflections as the tweeters are installed in the stock dash location firing at the windshield but I do not know. Everyone keeps suggesting certain volume levels to calibrate the MS8 at, but that doesnt help at all since one person's -30 could be wildly different than another persons. Is there a certain dB level that it should be calibrated at?
> 
> Oh, I just remembered one more small issue I had with my recent calibration and that is that my image is shifted about 2 feet to the right. What would cause this? Not turning my head far enough in one direction when doing the calibration?
> 
> Does anyone know if the measurements at each seat are independent or are they calculated together? The reason I ask is because I'm wondering if I could sit in the driver seat for both the driver and passenger measurements and turn my head differently. Then A/B the two just by switching seat positions in the MS8.


Try another calibration but bring the Xover point to 3.5kHz and see if it works better... 
What slope are you using? 12dB, 18dB or 24dB? 

Also, what's the HP setting for your center channel? I wouldn't play that small of a center below 250Hz and if I were to use one 3.5", I would use a HP of @ least 400Hz. 

Kelvin


----------



## swargolet

subwoofery said:


> Try another calibration but bring the Xover point to 3.5kHz and see if it works better...
> What slope are you using? 12dB, 18dB or 24dB?
> 
> Also, what's the HP setting for your center channel? I wouldn't play that small of a center below 250Hz and if I were to use one 3.5", I would use a HP of @ least 400Hz.
> 
> Kelvin


I'll try 3500hz and see how it is. I use 24dB for every crossover point as suggested by Andy. 

I believe the center is crossed at 300hz but don't remember for sure. I will most likely mess with it a bit tonight. I'll also try different levels on the MS8 to see how the results change.


----------



## tbomb

swargolet said:


> The distortion sounded more like the speaker reaching its limits (I think). The harshness at some frequencies may be caused by reflections as the tweeters are installed in the stock dash location firing at the windshield but I do not know. Everyone keeps suggesting certain volume levels to calibrate the MS8 at, but that doesnt help at all since one person's -30 could be wildly different than another persons. Is there a certain dB level that it should be calibrated at?


If you are properly setting up your input than -30 is -30 is -30. Not vastly different. I have found that, with my vehicle, the mid thirties work best. But, from what I understand, my stock HU sends out quite a strong signal. you may be sweeping to low if you are getting harsh highs. Try it at -20 as the manual states and work up (down) from there. If your tweeters are firing up into windshield, than yes, you need to deal with some reflection issues. A dash-mat could be your new best friend.

Also, are you running the front active? Nevermind, i see you you are. How are your gains set during calibration, and after? Also, with your center channel you are going to run into issues sense it is getting much less power than the fronts and is a much different speaker (also is adding to reflection issues if not treated) try calibrating without center and see what changes


----------



## tbomb

T3mpest said:


> same. My MS-8 HATED my subwoofer when I identified it as a sub. Wouldn't EQ it, anything, just bleh. Once i set it up as the lower end of my front speakers, it EQ's it properly and overall tune is much better.


Hmm, I havent seen this recommendation before. Sounds interesting. Problem is, dont you lose an output since you would have to dedicate 2 to the sub?


----------



## emoon3

CDT FAN said:


> What are you guys referring to?


Kaigoss' suggestion to do your sweeps with the sub disconnected then adding the sub afterward.


----------



## swargolet

tbomb said:


> If you are properly setting up your input than -30 is -30 is -30. Not vastly different. I have found that, with my vehicle, the mid thirties work best. But, from what I understand, my stock HU sends out quite a strong signal. you may be sweeping to low if you are getting harsh highs. Try it at -20 as the manual states and work up (down) from there. If your tweeters are firing up into windshield, than yes, you need to deal with some reflection issues. A dash-mat could be your new best friend.
> 
> Also, are you running the front active? Nevermind, i see you you are. How are your gains set during calibration, and after? Also, with your center channel you are going to run into issues sense it is getting much less power than the fronts and is a much different speaker (also is adding to reflection issues if not treated) try calibrating without center and see what changes


Wouldn't different sensitivities and gain settings change the -30 between cars? I'll mess around from -20 to -40 and see what produces good results with just the auto tuning. 

I level match (not gain match) everything prior to running the calibration. I've had the most luck doing level matching. After calibration I increase the gains so I get ~10dB more output overall. I use the test menu on the MS8 to level match everything before and after. I have tried calibrating without the center as well since I thought maybe it was holding everything back but the only difference I really saw was a less focused image.


----------



## tbomb

Gotcha. An easy way to tell if reflections are an issue, throw some towels or a fleece blanket,etc on dash and the re-calibrate and hear the result. If it helped any....get day dashmat.


----------



## maggie-g

emoon3 said:


> Kaigoss' suggestion to do your sweeps with the sub disconnected then adding the sub afterward.


This is only part of the kaigoss method. The rest of it is connecting your sub RCO input to the output of your full range amp, bypassing the MS8 all together. The forces the MS8 to emphasize your midbass and not your sub because it doesnt think you have a sub.


----------



## emoon3

maggie-g said:


> This is only part of the kaigoss method. The rest of it is connecting your sub RCO input to the output of your full range amp, bypassing the MS8 all together. The forces the MS8 to emphasize your midbass and not your sub because it doesnt think you have a sub.



That's right. It's been a while since I had my MS-8 installed. I forgot.


----------



## CDT FAN

maggie-g said:


> The rest of it is connecting your sub RCO input to the output of your full range amp, bypassing the MS8 all together.



Thanks guys, but I am still unclear about this sentence. Are you saying to connect the RCA input of your sub amp to the speaker output of the main speaker amp?


----------



## AFISRA

CDT FAN said:


> Thanks guys, but I am still unclear about this sentence. Are you saying to connect the RCA input of your sub amp to the speaker output of the main speaker amp?


I think she meant RCA to RCA. Most amps have an RCA output


----------



## swargolet

CDT FAN said:


> Thanks guys, but I am still unclear about this sentence. Are you saying to connect the RCA input of your sub amp to the speaker output of the main speaker amp?


Either connect the RCAs from the output of your full range amp to the input of your sub amp or use a Y-splitter prior to connecting to the full range amp.


----------



## swargolet

tbomb said:


> Gotcha. An easy way to tell if reflections are an issue, throw some towels or a fleece blanket,etc on dash and the re-calibrate and hear the result. If it helped any....get day dashmat.


I'll try that out just to see what sort of difference it'd make but I'm pretty opposed to getting a dashmat in my car as IMO they are hideous. Yes I strive for good sound, but not at the cost of making my ruining the interior look of my car. I have been tossing around the idea of making some A-pillar tweeter pods to get them out of the dash. I just don't know the proper way to aim them.


----------



## kaigoss69

HOLY CRAP!!! 

So I've had a major breakthrough today with the subwoofer. This time, I cannot take any credit whatsoever. I used a "trick", but it was Andy who suggested it:



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Instead of connecting the 5001 to the output of the 1004, why not connect it to the MS8? *Then, identify the subs as front low. If you do that, MS-8 will time align them and set the level in a different way.*


For the past year I've run a 2-way front plus sub, and I thought the results were pretty damn good. It was the best the car had ever sounded. I put in an IDMax 15 IB and a new amp and it really helped to clean up the sub stage and get me some great volume when I needed it. Most times though when listening to normal music it would just blend very nicely and only come on strong when called upon. 

Last night, I re-read Andy's post above, and since I was in the process of cleaning up the wiring in my trunk, I decided to go ahead and try this. I connected outputs 5 and 6 to the sub amp L & R inputs, and set the MS-8 up for a 3-way front stage, without sub (instead of the traditional 2-way configuration, plus sub). My underseat woofers became FLMid and FRMid (instead of FLLo and FRLo), and FLLo and FRLo became the new outputs to the sub amp (I crossed over at 50Hz 24dB/oct). Ran calibration and put in some tunes. At first, I thought I had screwed something up because I could not hear the sub play whatsoever. I stuck my head between the seats, facing the trunk, and still nothing. It sounded really really good though, loud and clean, but all the bass seemed to be coming from my 10" Morels under the seats. I went to the trunk to turn up the sub amp gain but first I decided to reach through the basket and put my fingers on the back of the cone of the IDMax... Well, slap my ass and call me Sally!  The damn sub was playing, hard!

This is unbelievable, for the first time ever the sub has totally disappeared. I am utterly amazed. Had to come up here to report, now back to the car for more listening! Thanks a bunch Andy!


----------



## Bluenote

Kaigoss, that's amazing, but I would like to know if you think this work for those with a 3 way front since the subs are taking the FR/FL Lo?


----------



## subwoofery

kaigoss69 said:


> HOLY CRAP!!!
> 
> So I've had a major breakthrough today with the subwoofer. This time, I cannot take any credit whatsoever. I used a "trick", but it was Andy who suggested it:
> 
> 
> 
> For the past year I've run a 2-way front plus sub, and I thought the results were pretty damn good. It was the best the car had ever sounded. I put in an IDMax 15 IB and a new amp and it really helped to clean up the sub stage and get me some great volume when I needed it. Most times though when listening to normal music it would just blend very nicely and only come on strong when called upon.
> 
> Last night, I re-read Andy's post above, and since I was in the process of cleaning up the wiring in my trunk, I decided to go ahead and try this. I connected outputs 5 and 6 to the sub amp L & R inputs, and set the MS-8 up for a 3-way front stage, without sub (instead of the traditional 2-way configuration, plus sub). My underseat woofers became FLMid and FRMid (instead of FLLo and FRLo), and FLLo and FRLo became the new outputs to the sub amp (I crossed over at 50Hz 24dB/oct). Ran calibration and put in some tunes. At first, I thought I had screwed something up because I could not hear the sub play whatsoever. I stuck my head between the seats, facing the trunk, and still nothing. It sounded really really good though, loud and clean, but all the bass seemed to be coming from my 10" Morels under the seats. I went to the trunk to turn up the sub amp gain but first I decided to reach through the basket and put my fingers on the back of the cone of the IDMax... Well, slap my ass and call me Sally!  The damn sub was playing, hard!
> 
> This is unbelievable, for the first time ever the sub has totally disappeared. I am utterly amazed. Had to come up here to report, now back to the car for more listening! Thanks a bunch Andy!


Do you have a way to measure the impulse response of your system? That would help me a bunch  

Kelvin


----------



## kaigoss69

Bluenote said:


> Kaigoss, that's amazing, but I would like to know if you think this work for those with a 3 way front since the subs are taking the FR/FL Lo?


No, since MS-8 will not allow a 4-way front. Instead, you should install passives between the tweets and mids (or mids and woofers), or cross them over active at the amp, if possible, to free-up the channels.


----------



## kaigoss69

subwoofery said:


> Do you have a way to measure the impulse response of your system? That would help me a bunch
> 
> Kelvin


Not sure, is there an app for that???


----------



## swargolet

kaigoss69 said:


> Not sure, is there an app for that???


You'd need a calibrated external microphone most likely. I've heard of people buying the Dayton iMM-6 microphone and using some app on their phone to measure. I personally use a Datyon UMM-6 microphone, tripod, Room EW-Wizard software, and a laptop to measure my car.


----------



## kaigoss69

swargolet said:


> You'd need a calibrated external microphone most likely. I've heard of people buying the Dayton iMM-6 microphone and using some app on their phone to measure. I personally use a Datyon UMM-6 microphone, tripod, Room EW-Wizard software, and a laptop to measure my car.


I've got the iTestMic from StudioSixDigital. Plugs right into the iPhone/iPad.


----------



## tbomb

swargolet said:


> I'll try that out just to see what sort of difference it'd make but I'm pretty opposed to getting a dashmat in my car as IMO they are hideous. Yes I strive for good sound, but not at the cost of making my ruining the interior look of my car. I have been tossing around the idea of making some A-pillar tweeter pods to get them out of the dash. I just don't know the proper way to aim them.


Dashmats have come along way. Of course, i guess i am biased since i use one. But they really have. You dont have to get the thick furry ones. There are synthetic materials that look much cleaner. AS far as a-pillars, this will not fix the reflection issue as you are still reflecting off the glass and hard dash. Read what andy has to say about speaker locations. i would just relocate them to the upper door if a mat is out of the question


----------



## UNFORGIVEN

So I've decided to invest in a DSP for my father and the MS-8 sounds like a good match.

channels 1-4
(2) tweeters
(2) mid ranges 
(2) rear speakers
Channel 5
(2) JL w6 10"

The thing is that I want to remove the passive crossovers and run fully active with the equipment that's already installed.

Am I able to do this with the MS-8 without having to buy a dedicated subwoofer amp?
Can I run the tweeters or rear speakers powered off the ms8


----------



## subwoofery

kaigoss69 said:


> Not sure, is there an app for that???


Not that I know of  

Was thinking more about something like this: 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/how-articles-provided-our-members/17-tuning-your-car-using-pc-based-measurement-setup.html 
You'd need a computer though...

Kelvin


----------



## Bluenote

kaigoss69 said:


> No, since MS-8 will not allow a 4-way front. Instead, you should install passives between the tweets and mids (or mids and woofers), or cross them over active at the amp, if possible, to free-up the channels.


I'm just amazed at how these workarounds keep bringing new possibilities back to this unit! Thanks for sharing.


----------



## dileepsv

Was not too pleased with this product.


----------



## tbomb

dileepsv said:


> Was not too pleased with this product.


care to elaborate on that, quite random, comment?


----------



## Babs

Bluenote said:


> I'm just amazed at how these workarounds keep bringing new possibilities back to this unit! Thanks for sharing.


Makes me think maybe I should hang onto the MS-8 I pulled from my Civic, for the truck build. I was darn near ready to post it FS, to go with a more recent non-auto DSP such as a Helix maybe. Might do well for the ideas I have for the Tacoma 2 or 3-way.


----------



## kaigoss69

UNFORGIVEN said:


> So I've decided to invest in a DSP for my father and the MS-8 sounds like a good match.
> 
> channels 1-4
> (2) tweeters
> (2) mid ranges
> (2) rear speakers
> Channel 5
> (2) JL w6 10"
> 
> The thing is that I want to remove the passive crossovers and run fully active with the equipment that's already installed.
> 
> Am I able to do this with the MS-8 without having to buy a dedicated subwoofer amp?
> Can I run the tweeters or rear speakers powered off the ms8


Are we talking OEM speakers? If yes you can probably run them off the MS-8 and you will only need a mono amp for the subs.


----------



## Darth SQ

Congrats gents and welcome to page 400. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Bluenote

Brett! This thread is great for the newer MS8 users because of the diehards like Kaigoss and so many others.


----------



## Bluenote

kaigoss69 said:


> HOLY CRAP!!!
> 
> So I've had a major breakthrough today with the subwoofer. This time, I cannot take any credit whatsoever. I used a "trick", but it was Andy who suggested it:
> 
> 
> 
> For the past year I've run a 2-way front plus sub, and I thought the results were pretty damn good. It was the best the car had ever sounded. I put in an IDMax 15 IB and a new amp and it really helped to clean up the sub stage and get me some great volume when I needed it. Most times though when listening to normal music it would just blend very nicely and only come on strong when called upon.
> 
> Last night, I re-read Andy's post above, and since I was in the process of cleaning up the wiring in my trunk, I decided to go ahead and try this. I connected outputs 5 and 6 to the sub amp L & R inputs, and set the MS-8 up for a 3-way front stage, without sub (instead of the traditional 2-way configuration, plus sub). My underseat woofers became FLMid and FRMid (instead of FLLo and FRLo), and FLLo and FRLo became the new outputs to the sub amp (I crossed over at 50Hz 24dB/oct). Ran calibration and put in some tunes. At first, I thought I had screwed something up because I could not hear the sub play whatsoever. I stuck my head between the seats, facing the trunk, and still nothing. It sounded really really good though, loud and clean, but all the bass seemed to be coming from my 10" Morels under the seats. I went to the trunk to turn up the sub amp gain but first I decided to reach through the basket and put my fingers on the back of the cone of the IDMax... Well, slap my ass and call me Sally!  The damn sub was playing, hard!
> 
> This is unbelievable, for the first time ever the sub has totally disappeared. I am utterly amazed. Had to come up here to report, now back to the car for more listening! Thanks a bunch Andy!


Kaigoss, with a single sub amp and single or dual subs is it essential to use both FL-Lo and FR-Lo ? Could one assign only one of the Lo's? You've got me curious.


----------



## maggie-g

kaigoss69 said:


> HOLY CRAP!!!
> 
> So I've had a major breakthrough today with the subwoofer. This time, I cannot take any credit whatsoever. I used a "trick", but it was Andy who suggested it:
> 
> 
> 
> For the past year I've run a 2-way front plus sub, and I thought the results were pretty damn good. It was the best the car had ever sounded. I put in an IDMax 15 IB and a new amp and it really helped to clean up the sub stage and get me some great volume when I needed it. Most times though when listening to normal music it would just blend very nicely and only come on strong when called upon.
> 
> Last night, I re-read Andy's post above, and since I was in the process of cleaning up the wiring in my trunk, I decided to go ahead and try this. I connected outputs 5 and 6 to the sub amp L & R inputs, and set the MS-8 up for a 3-way front stage, without sub (instead of the traditional 2-way configuration, plus sub). My underseat woofers became FLMid and FRMid (instead of FLLo and FRLo), and FLLo and FRLo became the new outputs to the sub amp (I crossed over at 50Hz 24dB/oct). Ran calibration and put in some tunes. At first, I thought I had screwed something up because I could not hear the sub play whatsoever. I stuck my head between the seats, facing the trunk, and still nothing. It sounded really really good though, loud and clean, but all the bass seemed to be coming from my 10" Morels under the seats. I went to the trunk to turn up the sub amp gain but first I decided to reach through the basket and put my fingers on the back of the cone of the IDMax... Well, slap my ass and call me Sally!  The damn sub was playing, hard!
> 
> This is unbelievable, for the first time ever the sub has totally disappeared. I am utterly amazed. Had to come up here to report, now back to the car for more listening! Thanks a bunch Andy!



thank you so much for this information. Not sure how I missed Andy's post about it in the last 399 pages 

I tried this configuration last night and I too, was blown away. Much better. No turn off pop anymore either since the sub amp is back to being connected to the dsp. Still needs a bit of tweaking, but that is to be expected. Nothing is perfect. I was grinning ear to ear on my drive to work this morning. Thanks again!


----------



## sirbOOm

I'm confused. Were you guys not connecting the subwoofer amplifier to open channels on the MS8? It says right in the manual that every single speaker must be downstream from the MS8 and it's common practice to use channels 7 and 8 for your subwoofer amplifier. A subwoofer amplifier should not be daisy chained from some other amplifier or bypass the MS-8, otherwise it will not time align the subwoofers individually from the speakers.

Hopefully that is not what was happening and I just read wrong.


----------



## kaigoss69

Bluenote said:


> Kaigoss, with a single sub amp and single or dual subs is it essential to use both FL-Lo and FR-Lo ? Could one assign only one of the Lo's? You've got me curious.



Once you set up a 3-way, you will automatically assign 6 channels and have two low outputs. No way that I know of to create just one.


----------



## kaigoss69

sirbOOm said:


> I'm confused. Were you guys not connecting the subwoofer amplifier to open channels on the MS8? It says right in the manual that every single speaker must be downstream from the MS8 and it's common practice to use channels 7 and 8 for your subwoofer amplifier. A subwoofer amplifier should not be daisy chained from some other amplifier or bypass the MS-8, otherwise it will not time align the subwoofers individually from the speakers.
> 
> Hopefully that is not what was happening and I just read wrong.



You did read some things right, and others wrong. 

We were using workarounds to get better midbass. This involved connecting the sub amp to the midbass amp. 

Channels 7&8 are commonly used on the INPUT side, not output. 

Also, the subwoofer is NOT included in the time alignment algorithm if you connect it to its own MS-8 "SUB" channel. Only when you select a front 2 way or 3 way and use the Lo outputs for the sub, is the sub time aligned. It makes all the difference in the world, btw.


----------



## T3mpest

kaigoss69 said:


> Once you set up a 3-way, you will automatically assign 6 channels and have two low outputs. No way that I know of to create just one.


You can do it with a single sub, low bass we are playing from a sub is mono anyways. He still has to use both channels, but it works just as effective with one sub connected as two. If you use a bridged amplifier that is only using one input on the amp as it's signal, you'll need a rca splitter, one male end with 2 female ends.


----------



## T3mpest

tbomb said:


> Hmm, I havent seen this recommendation before. Sounds interesting. Problem is, dont you lose an output since you would have to dedicate 2 to the sub?


yeah, but I didnt' need all 8 outputs in my case. I'm using my MS-8 atm with my stock speakers except for an aftermarket subwoofer. So I have it set up as my stock components are channel 1 and 3, FL Hi and FR Hi. Channel 2 is my center. Channel 4+5 are my rear speakers and channel 7+8 are FL lo and FR lo. Still leaves me with 2 extra channels. No amount of level matching or resweeping has given me the results I get consistently using this method. I still need to boost my midbasses quite a bit to counter the cuts it makes in that area, but it does a much better job overall.


----------



## kaigoss69

T3mpest said:


> You can do it with a single sub, *low bass we are playing from a sub is mono anyways*. He still has to use both channels, but it works just as effective with one sub connected as two. If you use a bridged amplifier that is only using one input on the amp as it's signal, you'll need a rca splitter, one male end with 2 female ends.


Depends on the crossover frequency! Most sub amps will take L&R inputs and sum them, so no reason at all not to connect both outputs from the MS-8 to the sub amp.


----------



## T3mpest

kaigoss69 said:


> Depends on the crossover frequency! Most sub amps will take L&R inputs and sum them, so no reason at all not to connect both outputs from the MS-8 to the sub amp.


How high you running your sub? Stereo information in most music isnt' prevalent until 200ish hz on a lot of it, at least from what I've noticed while playing with the idea mono midbasses and asking others who have tried it. Anyways I'm not sure on the summing thing. I know my Arc 2500xxk only used the right RCA when you ran it in bridged. Which sucked because i needed to get one more part lol.


----------



## Cruz5350

I finally got my display cord from the previous owner and well... I'm sure it's just all in the tuning but I'm terribly disappointed in this. I'll have to spend some serious time reading this entire thread hoping to get what's most likely only marginally better results than what I had before.


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> You did read some things right, and others wrong.
> 
> We were using workarounds to get better midbass. This involved connecting the sub amp to the midbass amp.
> 
> Channels 7&8 are commonly used on the INPUT side, not output.
> 
> Also, the subwoofer is NOT included in the time alignment algorithm if you connect it to its own MS-8 "SUB" channel. Only when you select a front 2 way or 3 way and use the Lo outputs for the sub, is the sub time aligned. It makes all the difference in the world, btw.


It's not the TA that makes a difference. The MS-8 sets the level differently this way.


----------



## 14642

T3mpest said:


> How high you running your sub? Stereo information in most music isnt' prevalent until 200ish hz on a lot of it, at least from what I've noticed while playing with the idea mono midbasses and asking others who have tried it. Anyways I'm not sure on the summing thing. I know my Arc 2500xxk only used the right RCA when you ran it in bridged. Which sucked because i needed to get one more part lol.



This used to be the case with vinyl records. Lots of low frequency information is now stereo.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> It's not the TA that makes a difference. The MS-8 sets the level differently this way.


Andy, I have never doubted anything you said...

BUT... I really tried over the years to get the sub properly integrated. You know, I used many workarounds, playing with gains before and after calibration, putting the subwoofer in the back seat for calibration, reversing polarities, and of course tweaking the EQ to get a better transition between midbass and subwoofer. I'm not exaggerating when I say I have re-calibrated hundreds of times over the years and I spent hundreds of hours in the car trying to get it to where it was two days ago. If it had only been a level issue, then why did I never come close to what I have now? I read about experiences of other users with different processors, and how they were able to "get the sub to play on the hood" with the help of T/A. Even when my system sounded really good, and I had tweaked everything I possibly could, the sub was never up front. 

This is a game changer. We are not even talking about the same ballpark, it is a totally different dimension of bass - seamlessly integrated, absolutely transparent, and everything is happening up front, and in front of me. I am running out of words to describe how much better it sounds now. Hell, even the rattles have disappeared! 

Are you 100% sure it is just due to level setting?


----------



## swargolet

So I did a TON of tweaking last night. I auto-eq'd with levels from -20 to -35 in 5dB increments and measured between each one. I also tried looking at different spots in my car during the measurements and holy crap did things change a lot between it all. I'm somewhat pissed because I forgot to save all the measurements that I took so I'll try to explain it a bit by breaking down the measurements I took after each auto-eq

IMO, all of the measurements had the sub way too loud and the tweeters were too harsh. I think this is just due to the target curve that the MS-8 shoots for. The image also seemed to stay relatively the same between tunes. I assume that is due to the fact that the TA measurements are only done during the first set of chirps.

*-20dB *: By far the worst tune. There were peaks and nulls all over the place and the sub was boomy. I assume it was just too high of a level for the auto EQ to work well.
*-25dB looking somewhat inside the mirrors* : Decent tune but had a very big nulls around 120hz and another at 300hz. Both were around -20dB.
*-25dB Looking directly at the mirrors* : This was the best by far! I even repeated the auto-eq and measurements multiple times to make sure it wasn't a fluke. Most of the peaks and nulls were gone or at least greatly reduced. 4khz-16khz was almost perfectly flat. Sub was well integrated with the other speakers and not boomy. Overall, it left me with a great starting point.
*-30dB looking somewhat outside the mirrors* : Similar to the first -25dB tune but the nulls weren't as bad, although they were still not to my liking. Higher frequencies seemed to bounce around +/- 4dB
*-30dB looking at mirrors* : Similar to other -30dB but higher frequencies were more flat.
*-35 Looking at mirrors* : Pretty much the same as the last -30.

The biggest thing this told me was that one of the most important things is that the level isn't too high during the chirps. But from -25 to -35 it really didn't change that much, so as long as you aren't too loud then you should be OK. The other thing that REALLY surprised me was how much of a difference it made depending on how much your turned your head, even if it was a little bit. For instance, I found that when it told me to look at the passenger mirror, my head was pointed more towards the A-pillar even though my eyes were looking at the mirror. Once I actually pointed my head at the mirror, it smoothed out the response quite a bit. Not sure what is causing this though.

Now onto using the sub as a Front-Lo. I tried this but actually was not pleased with the results. The only thing I really noticed was that the sub level was greatly reduced and in fact too much. My measurements even confirmed that everything under 80hz was about 5dB down from the rest. Granted, I didn't spend much time messing around with this setup though so who knows, maybe it would've been better if I would've tried it a bit more. I don't have issues with lack of mid-bass and overpowering sub(after manual eq) though like many others have, so maybe my situation is different.


So over my 2+ years of experimenting, here are the biggest things that have helped me or at least I suggest others check out)
- Verify phase is correct on each speaker. (Mine was fine, but I've heard this is a big issue with others)
- Level match the speakers beforehand. I had no luck with gain matching. I level matched to my center as best as possible since it is running off the MS-8 so I can't adjust its gain.
- Increase the gain on all the speakers except the sub so the other speakers are playing 5-10dB louder.
- Use the manual EQ! For me, I just treat the auto-eq as a starting point and then tweak the EQ manually to get it to my liking. I don't aim for a measured flat curve as we perceive frequencies at different loudness. So I set the eq flat, played a 150hz tone and 3khz tone and then adjusted the 3hz band so I felt like it was the same loudness as the 150hz. I ended up dropping it about 3dB if I remember correctly. Then I made my EQ slope down 3dB from 150 to 3khz and then slowly leveled it off a bit but not completely. Take a look at the fletcher munson curve to see what I'm talking about.


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> Andy, I have never doubted anything you said...
> 
> BUT... I really tried over the years to get the sub properly integrated. You know, I used many workarounds, playing with gains before and after calibration, putting the subwoofer in the back seat for calibration, reversing polarities, and of course tweaking the EQ to get a better transition between midbass and subwoofer. I'm not exaggerating when I say I have re-calibrated hundreds of times over the years and I spent hundreds of hours in the car trying to get it to where it was two days ago. If it had only been a level issue, then why did I never come close to what I have now? I read about experiences of other users with different processors, and how they were able to "get the sub to play on the hood" with the help of T/A. Even when my system sounded really good, and I had tweaked everything I possibly could, the sub was never up front.
> 
> This is a game changer. We are not even talking about the same ballpark, it is a totally different dimension of bass - seamlessly integrated, absolutely transparent, and everything is happening up front, and in front of me. I am running out of words to describe how much better it sounds now. Hell, even the rattles have disappeared!
> 
> Are you 100% sure it is just due to level setting?


Yes. It has nothing to do with time alignment. The level setting for the subwoofer is VERY complicated and in retrospect, I would do it a different way because it's too dependent on the shape of the sub's response. When you assign the sub as front low or mix it in with the fronts using your method, then the level of the subwoofer and the shape of the response is set entirely with the EQ rather than a level match to +9dB above the mids and highs. 

The problem is that if the bass from 50-80 Hz isn't at a similar level as the bass higher or lower, then the EQ may not be able to fix it. For systems and cars in which the bass is relatively flat from 20-120Hz, it works fine. 

Bass and midbass in BMWs is especially tough because those 8" under the seats make an assload of midbass, which MS-8 attenuates in the Mid/High EQ when they are identified as front low. When the sub, especially a small sealed box, is placed in the trunk, it's a really narrow bandwidth response and the combination is death for the algorithm. 

If the 8s under the seats are used as the subwoofers, then it works GREAT.


----------



## Babs

Sounds like Andy needs a new processor on the market.  Jus sayin.

I wish I could get a repl display doggonit. I managed to let mine get all scratched.


----------



## Lanson

Babs said:


> Sounds like Andy needs a new processor on the market.  Jus sayin.


10 channel Frog-Brain, that's my suggestion. I'd buy it.


----------



## Babs

fourthmeal said:


> 10 channel Frog-Brain, that's my suggestion. I'd buy it.


Now we're talkin'! 

Best have the auto-tune allow parameter visibility and tweaking.

Then no 400 page threads on "I ran auto-tune and I can't get this.." or "I can't get that.." or "it doesn't blend this.." The reply would be singular and easy.. "Then go in and change it!" 

And don't let on until it's on the shelves or there will be 200 pages of "when's it coming out?"


----------



## CDT FAN

Post #10,000. 

Thank you Andy for such a great product and wonderful support.


----------



## sierrarider

#10001 
I can't wait to install mine


----------



## SQLnovice

Installing mine this weekend.


----------



## t3sn4f2

edit


----------



## tbomb

Im going to try this sub as Front Low. Just means i will have to go passive on my front stage. I will say that Andys statement about the sub type making a difference its very true. If I take my old round Solobaric 12 in its .66 cu ft sealed box, very loud but boomy and easily located. Swap in my ported Dayton 10 and its silky smooth. Cant wait to get my JBL p1022 in and see how it blends. I bet the IB guys with ms8's just laugh at the rest of us.

Andy, since your back in here (which is just awesome btw), you had a tip regarding setting the LP xover of sub amp. I cant seem to find it for the life of me. I believe it was to help in the case of small sealed subs.


----------



## chofilena

Bluenote said:


> Kaigoss, with a single sub amp and single or dual subs is it essential to use both FL-Lo and FR-Lo ? Could one assign only one of the Lo's? You've got me curious.


Maybe you should start a new thread for this. What can you suggest i should do if i'm using 5 and 6 channel for sides. Will i have better sq if i drop the side speakers? Can i use 7 and 8 for the sub? Meaning i will be dedicate two channels for a single sub and run three way with no sub.


----------



## tbomb

the channel numbers can be assigned to anything. How is current system setup?


----------



## chofilena

What could be the problem, please help. During the output check i cannot get signal from the side left speaker,also with the sweeps during calibration. But when i listen to music my left side speaker is working. What could be wrong?


----------



## chofilena

chofilena said:


> What could be the problem, please help. During the output check i cannot get signal from the side left speaker,also with the sweeps during calibration. But when i listen to music my left side speaker is working. What could be wrong?


Found my problem. It was just a pinched wire on rear left side door. Speaker turns on when i open the door and goes away when i close it.


----------



## BuickGN

tbomb said:


> Im going to try this sub as Front Low. Just means i will have to go passive on my front stage. I will say that Andys statement about the sub type making a difference its very true. If I take my old round Solobaric 12 in its .66 cu ft sealed box, very loud but boomy and easily located. Swap in my ported Dayton 10 and its silky smooth. Cant wait to get my JBL p1022 in and see how it blends. I bet the IB guys with ms8's just laugh at the rest of us.
> 
> Andy, since your back in here (which is just awesome btw), you had a tip regarding setting the LP xover of sub amp. I cant seem to find it for the life of me. I believe it was to help in the case of small sealed subs.


I can't answer for Andy but several thousand posts and a few years ago when I kept getting a boomy, poorly integrated sub after calibration, I was told to use the amp's lowpass filter around 50hz (you can adjust, has to be lower than the MS8's Lp sub filter) during calibration and then turn it off once calibrated. It worked wonders. The overall sub volume was higher and the sub to midbass integration was much better. The sub became much smoother as well. 

I found the MS8 works the best when it doesn't have to make huge changes whether it's level matching or EQ, such as a high Q peaky sub setup. It's also very sensitive to polarity so make sure all speakers are wired properly.


----------



## tbomb

BuickGN said:


> I can't answer for Andy but several thousand posts and a few years ago when I kept getting a boomy, poorly integrated sub after calibration, I was told to use the amp's lowpass filter around 50hz (you can adjust, has to be lower than the MS8's Lp sub filter) during calibration and then turn it off once calibrated. It worked wonders. The overall sub volume was higher and the sub to midbass integration was much better. The sub became much smoother as well.
> 
> I found the MS8 works the best when it doesn't have to make huge changes whether it's level matching or EQ, such as a high Q peaky sub setup. It's also very sensitive to polarity so make sure all speakers are wired properly.




Thanks!


----------



## an2ny888

has anyone here lost the foam ( disintegrated ) on their ms8 mics? am I right in assuming there is no need to replace it, as it looks like its there just for our ear's comfort?


----------



## perfecxionx

sorry if this is a dumb question but can i do this with an active 3 way system:

iphone headphone cable --> aux input on ms8 --> ms8 outputs to amps

so basically use the ms8 with no headunit at all ?

the manual seems to suggest i can, but will the volume control on the headphone work?


----------



## 14642

Yes you can


----------



## tbomb

an2ny888 said:


> has anyone here lost the foam ( disintegrated ) on their ms8 mics? am I right in assuming there is no need to replace it, as it looks like its there just for our ear's comfort?


correct


----------



## chofilena

Guys i need to do something with the car and i have to remove the batteries. By doing this will i lose all my settings? Do i need to run calibration again?


----------



## kaigoss69

chofilena said:


> Guys i need to do something with the car and i have to remove the batteries. By doing this will i lose all my settings? Do i need to run calibration again?


No, you will not.


----------



## kaigoss69

I just recently discovered the "trick" where you store the driver and passenger calibrations, being able to compare small changes in head position during calibration, by toggling back and forth between driver and passenger settings.

Anyway, I discovered that a small difference in head angle can have a fairly large impact on bass response. So I took four different calibrations today and RTA'd them, and the only difference between the results is the head position during calibration steps #3 (look at driver mirror) and #4 (look at passenger mirror). The head angle positions were as follows:

Reading #1: Just outside the a-pillar (on the windshield)
Reading #2: At the a-pillar, straight above sail panel
Reading #3: Middle of side mirrors
Reading #4: Outside edge of side mirrors

Pic to illustrate:










I will add that when I calibrate, I will always keep my head level during all sweeps, which means my head only moves sideways, never up or down.

What I found was that the width of the stage, or the imaging, never changed. The only things that changed were slight nuances in the tonality, and the bass response. Reading #2 (sail panel) produced the strongest bass response, by about 3-4dB over the other 3 readings. But it was a peaky response as you can see on the RTAs. #1 was also peaky in the bass response, but not as loud as #2. The best bass/midbass response was with reading #3 (middle of side mirrors), but it was very close to #4. Not a very scientific or revealing post, I know, but I thought I'd post the results. I have no way to explain the differences in bass response, thought it was a bit strange.

Reading #1:









Reading #2:









Reading #3:









Reading #4:


----------



## kaigoss69

While on the topic of head position during calibrations, I have recently been fighting the imaging as it is always too far to the left for my liking. Most male and female voices are straight in front of me, whereas they used to be a few inches farther toward the center of the dash. For example, Rebeccah Pidgeon's voice in Spanish Harlem was always about right center hood, whereas now it is almost straight in front of me. I have tried different head angles between left and right side measurements, but nothing seems to work. I have tried leaning to the left, and to the right during calibrations, but nothing seems to help. I am 100% sure my polarities are correct (tested with speaker pop app from JL Audio), and of course the balance is set to the center. I did some rewiring recently but other than that I am using the same amp I was using when the imaging was much better centered.

For reference, I am using HAT L3SE widebanders in the door OEM midrange locations, on axis, no tweeters.

Any ideas/suggestions?


----------



## 14642

Move your whole head to the left during the first set of sweeps.


----------



## 14642

I think you should do this test a few more times to verify that the changes aren't random. If the changes in the bass are consistent with head movements, I have no explanation for that either. I don't think that's going to be the case.

The algorithm simply averages the six measurements. In a non-reflective environment with speakers that have similar on and off axis response, that would mean that the farther you turned your head, the less high frequencies you'd have in your measurements 2 and 3, which would cause the EQ to boost. In a reflective environment with no tweeters, I'm not sure. The EQ divides the signal into 8 bands and there's a filter for each which can be any shape. Dramatic changes in the averaged responses in the four tests would cause the filters in the 8 bands to be implemented differently. The transition between bands at around 1k has sometimes been a problem and there's a pretty big difference in 1,2 and 3,4 in that regard. 

A better analysis would be to check the filters , which you could do by sending pink noise through the unit and measuring the electrical output of each channel for the 4 positions AFTER determining if the changes are consistent.


----------



## tbomb

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> .
> 
> In a non-reflective environment with speakers that have similar on and off axis response, that would mean that the farther you turned your head, the less high frequencies you'd have in your measurements 2 and 3, which would cause the EQ to boost.


So, if I understand this, this means if i feel like the upper frequencies are to loud/harsh, but stage is otherwise good, then i need to turn my head less? I tend to look at the outside edge of my mirrors. I need to bite the bullet and buy a mic to do some proper testing. But this is interesting bit of info. Andy your the best.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Move your whole head to the left during the first set of sweeps.


That did it!  I originally made the mistake of leaving the head in the leftward position during all sweeps.


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I think you should do this test a few more times to verify that the changes aren't random. If the changes in the bass are consistent with head movements, I have no explanation for that either. I don't think that's going to be the case.
> 
> The algorithm simply averages the six measurements. In a non-reflective environment with speakers that have similar on and off axis response, that would mean that the farther you turned your head, the less high frequencies you'd have in your measurements 2 and 3, which would cause the EQ to boost. In a reflective environment with no tweeters, I'm not sure. The EQ divides the signal into 8 bands and there's a filter for each which can be any shape. Dramatic changes in the averaged responses in the four tests would cause the filters in the 8 bands to be implemented differently. The transition between bands at around 1k has sometimes been a problem and there's a pretty big difference in 1,2 and 3,4 in that regard.
> 
> A better analysis would be to check the filters , which you could do by sending pink noise through the unit and measuring the electrical output of each channel for the 4 positions AFTER determining if the changes are consistent.


OK, next time I get bored...


----------



## Darth SQ

Damn good info guys.
Thanks so much for investing the time to help the rest of us.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## swargolet

@Kaigoss69

I also had some interesting changes when I tested different calibration levels as well as different angles of my head. Check my post in on the previous page. #9995

I also mentioned in there that I repeated the one test multiple times since it was so much better and different than the others ones. I don't remember the bass changing much though. Although, I still use the subwoofer output and I believe you now use the front lows, so maybe that makes a slight difference.


----------



## caraudioclassifieds

Hello ms-8 experts! I recently purchased one of these and it sounds great. I need a little help though. Prepare for wall-o-text...

I'm getting some clipping come from my tweeters (seas prestige 1" textile domes). I'm feeding them active from an alpine mrv-f300 50x4. The ms-8 from my 80prs. I have tried upping the gains for the tweeters from just below mid way point to maybe 5/8ths of the gain control. I also tried setting different slopes and x-over points (12db at 2500 to 24db at 4k) no luck. I usually keep the head unit at max point before clipping (55-56 out of 62) and set the ms-8 to -30-40 db during calibration. Should I try maybe setting the ms-8 volume higher during calibration? Try turning down the gains on the amp even more? 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Babs

I suspect something going on between the MS-8 and the tweets, meaning the amp, either gains or problem. One thing to try for troubleshooting is temporarily pull the amp out of the circuit and run tweets from the MS-8 speaker out. Does it clip? The SEAS Neo's generally can cross at 2500 no problem, so if the amp is generating the distortion you'll know by elimination. Worst case you could test it with one of the SMD distortion checkers used for setting gains, though they're expensive.


----------



## caraudioclassifieds

Babs said:


> I suspect something going on between the MS-8 and the tweets, meaning the amp, either gains or problem. One thing to try for troubleshooting is temporarily pull the amp out of the circuit and run tweets from the MS-8 speaker out. Does it clip? The SEAS Neo's generally can cross at 2500 no problem, so if the amp is generating the distortion you'll know by elimination. Worst case you could test it with one of the SMD distortion checkers used for setting gains, though they're expensive.


I'll try dialing back the gains to see if that resolves it later tonight. Thanks for the help!


----------



## Babs

Id definitely try it through the MS-8 output instead of the amps, just to test it. If all the sudden it's crispy clean, you've got definitely either with the amp, it's gain setting, or possibly even wiring maybe?


----------



## caraudioclassifieds

Babs said:


> Id definitely try it through the MS-8 output instead of the amps, just to test it. If all the sudden it's crispy clean, you've got definitely either with the amp, it's gain setting, or possibly even wiring maybe?


Hmm, through the ms-8 output? I'm a little confused. I dont remember seeing an option to adjust the level of drivers in the settings. I may have missed it though. Do you mean dial back the EQ?


----------



## tbomb

He means run them using ms8 power only, no amp. this will help eliminate the amp as a contributir to the noise. I think it may be more complicated than that as it is all a combo of system setup. i hace a feeling amp gains are way to high abd ms8 volume is too low. turn amp gain to 2volts, or try less than a quarter turn. Recalibrate at 40. Stick with 24db slopes for now. Maybe 2800hz. Make sure all settings on HU are neutral/off/bypassed. Hu volume should be turned down not at max. After calibration set ms8 volune to -8 abd leave it. see how that sounds. also, location of rweeters is important. Could be getting reflections that ms8 cant handle


----------



## Babs

Yeah the levels would probably be way off, tweeter position depending, but it might tell you if the amp section is the distortion culprit.


----------



## CruelSun

YAY! finally made it to the end of this megathread...

As someone said a few thousand posts or so ago: almost feels like a graduation!


----------



## subwoofery

CruelSun said:


> YAY! finally made it to the end of this megathread...
> 
> As someone said a few thousand posts or so ago: almost feels like a graduation!


Great, now make us a summary of how we can bring our system to the next level with an MS-8 
Leave everything unnecessary out 

Kelvin


----------



## Lanson

CruelSun said:


> YAY! finally made it to the end of this megathread...
> 
> As someone said a few thousand posts or so ago: almost feels like a graduation!



Well, yah but now we're on the MS-9.
















































gotcha


----------



## CruelSun

fourthmeal said:


> Well, yah but now we're on the MS-9.
> 
> 
> gotcha


Twicky Hobbit....


----------



## CruelSun

OK, so now that I am finally current in this thread, I have one concern.

I am planning a system in my 2012 Honda CR-v. 

OEM HU --> MS-8 

*center:* none (at least for now)

*front:* 6.5" components (Polk 6501?) in stock locations (Mid - low in door, tweet in sail) {Active} {Powered by 4x 75-100Watt JL Audio amp}

*Rear doors:* OEM, or decent quality coax {powered by MS-8}

*Sub:* JL Audio CR-V Stealthbox {powered by 300-400 watt JL Audio Amp}

I will be applying sound dampening.

*My concern is this:* Would the Stealthbox be considered "a peaky sub in a small sealed box"?? Surely it is a quality driver and enclosure, I'm just trying to learn from this thread and avoid the pitfalls.


----------



## tbomb

[B said:


> My concern is this:[/B] Would the Stealthbox be considered "a peaky sub in a small sealed box"?? Surely it is a quality driver and enclosure, I'm just trying to learn from this thread and avoid the pitfalls.


I would say, as far as MS8 is concerned, yes. It seems to prefer large sealed, ported or IB. Doesnt mean cant sound great. Just use the tips from the thread. I have tried the "calibrate without sub connected" and smoothed out my Old round Solobaric. My ported Dayton sounds great setup normally. Having issues with additional amp right now so cant say how my JBLp1022 will sound. Going to try the "hook subs up as front low" once amp is sorted.


----------



## kaigoss69

CruelSun said:


> OK, so now that I am finally current in this thread, I have one concern.
> 
> I am planning a system in my 2012 Honda CR-v.
> 
> OEM HU --> MS-8
> 
> *center:* none (at least for now)
> 
> *front:* 6.5" components (Polk 6501?) in stock locations (Mid - low in door, tweet in sail) {Active} {Powered by 4x 75-100Watt JL Audio amp}
> 
> *Rear doors:* OEM, or decent quality coax {powered by MS-8}
> 
> *Sub:* JL Audio CR-V Stealthbox {powered by 300-400 watt JL Audio Amp}
> 
> I will be applying sound dampening.
> 
> *My concern is this:* Would the Stealthbox be considered "a peaky sub in a small sealed box"?? Surely it is a quality driver and enclosure, I'm just trying to learn from this thread and avoid the pitfalls.


Do a front 3-way with rears (sides). 

CH1: FL-Hi: Tweet
CH2: FR-Hi: Tweet
CH3: FL-Mid: Midrange
CH4: FR-Mid: Midrange
CH5: FL-Lo: Sub (L input)
CH6: FR-Lo: Sub (R input)
CH7: SL
CH8: SR

Go through set-up and assign as above. Calibrate (don't worry about results right now). After calibration, set MS-8 vol to -30 (or lower) and go to the hidden menu, and go to "output identification". Measure SPL in head location of CH7 & 8 which are driven by MS-8 onboard amp. Then match channels 1-6 to 7&8 as best as you can. Then exit menu and let MS-8 shut down and reboot. Recalibrate. Done. Enjoy! 

Oh, and don't forget to unplug the mic after you finish calibrations and BEFORE you select "done". Don't ask why, just do it and never forget!!!


----------



## Babs

Wait what!?!? Hidden menu? Oh man I gotta read back through the thread I'd say.


----------



## Lanson

Babs said:


> Wait what!?!? Hidden menu? Oh man I gotta read back through the thread I'd say.


In main menu, hold left button a few seconds and then quickly press and hold the right button a few seconds.


----------



## CruelSun

tbomb said:


> I would say, as far as MS8 is concerned, yes. It seems to prefer large sealed, ported or IB. Doesnt mean cant sound great. Just use the tips from the thread. I have tried the "calibrate without sub connected" and smoothed out my Old round Solobaric. My ported Dayton sounds great setup normally. Having issues with additional amp right now so cant say how my JBLp1022 will sound. Going to try the "hook subs up as front low" once amp is sorted.


Thank you for the reply.

What does the term *IB* stand for? I have seen it used several times in this thread, but have been unable to glean a meaning from context.


----------



## Babs

fourthmeal said:


> In main menu, hold left button a few seconds and then quickly press and hold the right button a few seconds.


Gracias!


----------



## Kriszilla

CruelSun said:


> Thank you for the reply.
> 
> What does the term *IB* stand for? I have seen it used several times in this thread, but have been unable to glean a meaning from context.


Infinite Baffle


----------



## CruelSun

kaigoss69 said:


> Do a front 3-way with rears (sides).
> 
> CH1: FL-Hi: Tweet
> CH2: FR-Hi: Tweet
> CH3: FL-Mid: Midrange
> CH4: FR-Mid: Midrange
> CH5: FL-Lo: Sub (L input)
> CH6: FR-Lo: Sub (R input)
> CH7: SL
> CH8: SR
> 
> Go through set-up and assign as above. Calibrate (don't worry about results right now). After calibration, set MS-8 vol to -30 (or lower) and go to the hidden menu, and go to "output identification". Measure SPL in head location of CH7 & 8 which are driven by MS-8 onboard amp. Then match channels 1-6 to 7&8 as best as you can. Then exit menu and let MS-8 shut down and reboot. Recalibrate. Done. Enjoy!
> 
> Oh, and don't forget to unplug the mic after you finish calibrations and BEFORE you select "done". Don't ask why, just do it and never forget!!!


Thank you, This seems like the way to go. I have seen people discussing an inexpensive SPL meter. I see a few on Amazon ~20$ - 50$ What would you recommend?

If I'm going to spend $1000+ on this system, I might as well have a new tool to add to my collection.


----------



## CruelSun

Kriszilla said:


> Infinite Baffle


Thank you!


----------



## CruelSun

CruelSun said:


> I have seen people discussing an inexpensive SPL meter. I see a few on Amazon ~20$ - 50$ What would you recommend?
> 
> If I'm going to spend $1000+ on this system, I might as well have a new tool to add to my collection.


*^^Disreguard!*

There's an app for that...

Don't need precision, just comparative data.


----------



## Babs

e=mc2 said:


> And if you're too lazy to pop open the remote, just aim your remote at your smart phone camera and see if the ir led is lit up
> 
> of course you'll have to hold a button down while you're doing this


Ok.. On searching the topic of the remote this may allude to my answer. 
Is the remote IR? I guess it is then, and requires line of sight to the display, correct?

... Well that might explain why big dummy here had such terrible response with it, because I never mounted the remote but kept it in the cradle.. Probably covering up the silly IR, assuming like a big idiot that it was RF. duh. I'll have to pull 'r out of the box and look, now.


----------



## Lanson

Babs said:


> Ok.. On searching the topic of the remote this may allude to my answer.
> Is the remote IR? I guess it is then, and requires line of sight to the display, correct?
> 
> ... Well that might explain why big dummy here had such terrible response with it, because I never mounted the remote but kept it in the cradle.. Probably covering up the silly IR, assuming like a big idiot that it was RF. duh. I'll have to pull 'r out of the box and look, now.



LOL WUT?

The remote is RF.


----------



## Babs

fourthmeal said:


> LOL WUT?
> 
> The remote is RF.


I wasn't sure.. Dunno. Damn I was hoping it'd be the reason for the crappy remote response when I ran it. Gotta research that a bit.. Yep.. RF. Bet it's the battery. Otherwise, Helix here we come, unless I can score a replacement remote somewhere.

BTW your crossovers on the other thread.. nice work!


----------



## Lanson

Babs said:


> I wasn't sure.. Dunno. Damn I was hoping it'd be the reason for the crappy remote response when I ran it. Gotta research that a bit.. Yep.. RF. Bet it's the battery. Otherwise, Helix here we come, unless I can score a replacement remote somewhere.
> 
> BTW your crossovers on the other thread.. nice work!


Thanks!

Pop the remote and make sure it looks solid in there. Some people were talking about cold solder traces and stuff. its a simple board, like a key fob.


----------



## Fantaxp7

Hello,

I was driving around the other day and my front speakers stopped working...I got out of my car, checked all connections and they were tightly in place. I did a factory reset on my MS-8 and I got sound again out of my front speakers. However they do not sound right at all. Rear channels sound fine as well as center. I tried a few different channel configurations for the front set as they are two way but both sound bad (one worst than the other).

Is there something possibly going on with MS-8?

Thanks


----------



## Babs

fourthmeal said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Pop the remote and make sure it looks solid in there. Some people were talking about cold solder traces and stuff. its a simple board, like a key fob.


Cool.. I'll check it out.


----------



## KenNorton

how hot is normal?

my MS8 is a little less than unbearable to be touched by bare hand.
much hotter than the 3 amps installed. only the tweets run by MS8. 

I am planning to install a small amp for these tweets hoping to cool down the MS8.


----------



## Duckstu

Help.

Someone posted a link to a thread where Andy W. discussed Logic 7 and what he prefered to do with center channels etc, (such as putting them in the dash and aiming them up at the windscreen).. *but now I can't find it*.

*Does anyone know where I can find that link?*

I'm installing 6.5" woofers in each door and a 1" Seas tweeter in each A-pillar.

Also a 5" Seas co-axial with a similar 1" tweeter in the middle of it for my center.

I'm wondering what I should cross each of these at. Low as I can? Or try to balance the L, C and Right?

Etc..


----------



## Jepalan

Duckstu said:


> Help.
> 
> Someone posted a link to a thread where Andy W. discussed Logic 7 and what he prefered to do with center channels etc, (such as putting them in the dash and aiming them up at the windscreen).. *but now I can't find it*.
> 
> *Does anyone know where I can find that link?*
> 
> I'm installing 6.5" woofers in each door and a 1" Seas tweeter in each A-pillar.
> 
> Also a 5" Seas co-axial with a similar 1" tweeter in the middle of it for my center.
> 
> I'm wondering what I should cross each of these at. Low as I can? Or try to balance the L, C and Right?
> 
> Etc..


What you are looking for is probably somewhere in the MS-8 FAQ thread...
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq.html

Maybe this post? -> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/8257-jbls-ms-8-processor-87.html#post1002963


----------



## talan7

I've been getting what sounds like static out of my right tweeter. It comes and goes, particularly on vocals, sort of like the speaker is going. Then other times everything's ok. I've had it for a while and usually if I recalibrate it goes away, then after a while it'll come back again. What could this be?


----------



## Duckstu

Jepalan said:


> What you are looking for is probably somewhere in the MS-8 FAQ thread...
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq.html
> 
> Maybe this post? -> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/8257-jbls-ms-8-processor-87.html#post1002963


Yay! Thank you. 

I may have never found it there on page 82.
.


----------



## Lanson

KenNorton said:


> how hot is normal?
> 
> my MS8 is a little less than unbearable to be touched by bare hand.
> much hotter than the 3 amps installed. only the tweets run by MS8.
> 
> I am planning to install a small amp for these tweets hoping to cool down the MS8.


Seems excessive and not good. Double-triple check powers and grounds, maybe upgrade wire if any part is iffy. I used 8 gauge, power my rear and center, and it barely gets warm.


----------



## andy335touring

Is the remote out powerful enough to power/turn on two amps and two fans ?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Fantaxp7 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I was driving around the other day and my front speakers stopped working...I got out of my car, checked all connections and they were tightly in place. I did a factory reset on my MS-8 and I got sound again out of my front speakers. However they do not sound right at all. Rear channels sound fine as well as center. I tried a few different channel configurations for the front set as they are two way but both sound bad (one worst than the other).
> 
> Is there something possibly going on with MS-8?
> 
> Thanks


Check that the MS-8 didn't semi-fry those speakers.


----------



## Jepalan

andy335touring said:


> Is the remote out powerful enough to power/turn on two amps and two fans ?


From page 6 of User's Manual...
---
Rem Out: Connect this terminal to the remote turn-on terminals of all amplifiers in the system. The output is +12V DC, 1A.
---

So, you have 1A to work with - I don't know if that is enough for your amps & fans unless you provide more info.


----------



## perfecxionx

when wiring remote wire from the ms8 to two amplifiers is it better to run two wires from the ms8's remote out, or one wire to one amp and then from that amp to the second amp? im getting a sub click on noise


----------



## trumpet

perfecxionx said:


> when wiring remote wire from the ms8 to two amplifiers is it better to run two wires from the ms8's remote out, or one wire to one amp and then from that amp to the second amp? im getting a sub click on noise


Either way works, you're only getting 12V at low current down the wires. This should not explain a click noise when your subwoofer amplifier turns on. If the other amplifier is not doing the same noise then you know it's something else causing the issue.


----------



## perfecxionx

the amp is actually not clicking on, but when the amp comes on the sub makes a short sound, maybe around 30hz... not very loud...

its not much of a bother, just never heard it do this before


----------



## andy335touring

Jepalan said:


> From page 6 of User's Manual...
> ---
> Rem Out: Connect this terminal to the remote turn-on terminals of all amplifiers in the system. The output is +12V DC, 1A.
> ---
> 
> So, you have 1A to work with - I don't know if that is enough for your amps & fans unless you provide more info.


Thanks for the info 

The two fans are PC fans which are approximately 3.5" - 4" across.

One amp is a DLS A5, the other is a four channel Vibe amp but I can't remember the model off hand.


----------



## Lanson

I learned by blowing an RF360.2 not to hook up fans or LED's or anything else to the Rem out. Always use a relay and power those off that. You can get one of those 4,6,8 or more space fuse blocks from anywhere like an auto parts store, and then run the relay's output to that fuse block. MUCH safer, and you can then trust the fuses in the block will save the whole thing if a fan locks up, a wire gets shorted, etc.


----------



## andy335touring

Good point, the safety factor trumps the idea of simplifying my wiring.


----------



## wrangler

I've read, I've searched and would like input please for a new MS-8 installation.
2015 Jeep Cherokee with factory Alpine system. I'd like to start by just adding the MS-8 and upgrading speakers and/or amplifiers if needed.
The dash has 3.5" for left, centre, and right.
The front and rear doors have 6x9's
The rear pillars have 2.5" for left and right.
The subwoofer is an 8" DVC.
All speakers are 2ohms.
Would it be best to wire the front 5 speakers from 5 channels of the MS-8
Re: sub, I thought about adding a small 2 channel amp that can drive the 2 ohm stereo for the factory sub, about 100 watts x 2. wired to the 8th channel.
For the rear 6x9's and 2.5", would it be best to get a passive crossover and wire the 4 speakers to channels 6 and 7, not sure how to connect theses speakers for best all round sound.


----------



## Lanson

For now, for simplicity's sake, just go without the 2.5" rear pillar speakers for a bit. I did a similar setup in my Flex, and those D-pillar speakers were not missed. You can always add them back in later, and to do so you could get a cheap, simple 4ch amp and run it off of two channels of output from the MS-8 to get your channels. Adding in passive crossovers, especially ones not originally made for the purpose, makes things too complicated and won't improve the sound potential. 

FL Hi (3.5" L)
FL Lo (6x9 L)
FR Hi (3.5" R)
FR Lo (6x9 R)
SL (6x9 L)
SR (6x9 R)
Center (3.5" C)
Sub (8" S), run it series for a 4 ohm load and then bridge your amp. simpler wiring and setup.

Rock that, and see how it sounds. I can tell you the MS8 wants speakers that can meet the full range. Meaning those 3.5" speakers better be good and capable of reaching high frequencies. Else you may want to install something like the JBL GTO 329 / 328 or similar as a 3.5" goes, all around.

I will guess you want to cross those 3.5" somewhere around 200hz-300hz @ 24 dB/oct at see how it sounds. Since the MS-8 will treat the 6x9's as mid-bass and will not let the same frequencies that the front 3.5's are playing, really the tweeters in the 6x9's if there are any, will go dormant. 

Your rear 6x9's will be full range, but set the high cross point up high, say around 100-120 hz @ 24dB/oct. at first. You don't want bass frequencies playing into those rear speakers, as they will be playing out of phase info and may cancel some of your midbass. 

Does that help?


----------



## wrangler

fourthmeal said:


> For now, for simplicity's sake, just go without the 2.5" rear pillar speakers for a bit. I did a similar setup in my Flex, and those D-pillar speakers were not missed. You can always add them back in later, and to do so you could get a cheap, simple 4ch amp and run it off of two channels of output from the MS-8 to get your channels. Adding in passive crossovers, especially ones not originally made for the purpose, makes things too complicated and won't improve the sound potential.
> 
> FL Hi (3.5" L)
> FL Lo (6x9 L)
> FR Hi (3.5" R)
> FR Lo (6x9 R)
> SL (6x9 L)
> SR (6x9 R)
> Center (3.5" C)
> Sub (8" S), run it series for a 4 ohm load and then bridge your amp. simpler wiring and setup.
> 
> Rock that, and see how it sounds. I can tell you the MS8 wants speakers that can meet the full range. Meaning those 3.5" speakers better be good and capable of reaching high frequencies. Else you may want to install something like the JBL GTO 329 / 328 or similar as a 3.5" goes, all around.
> 
> I will guess you want to cross those 3.5" somewhere around 200hz-300hz @ 24 dB/oct at see how it sounds. Since the MS-8 will treat the 6x9's as mid-bass and will not let the same frequencies that the front 3.5's are playing, really the tweeters in the 6x9's if there are any, will go dormant.
> 
> Your rear 6x9's will be full range, but set the high cross point up high, say around 100-120 hz @ 24dB/oct. at first. You don't want bass frequencies playing into those rear speakers, as they will be playing out of phase info and may cancel some of your midbass.
> 
> Does that help?


fourthmeal, thank you for the quick reply.
This will help! Trying to make the system sound better not worse!!
Good point about the rear being out of phase, I'll try the 6x9's then try the pillars for a difference.
BTW the 6x9's do not have tweeters.
I'm not sure of their frequency response, I believe for the front crossed over as mid bass they should work rather well, for the rear, as I mentioned I'll try both and compare the upper end frequencies. With the rear pillars being 2.5" can you suggest a starting point for the crossover.


----------



## Lanson

wrangler said:


> fourthmeal, thank you for the quick reply.
> This will help! Trying to make the system sound better not worse!!
> Good point about the rear being out of phase, I'll try the 6x9's then try the pillars for a difference.
> BTW the 6x9's do not have tweeters.
> I'm not sure of their frequency response, I believe for the front crossed over as mid bass they should work rather well, for the rear, as I mentioned I'll try both and compare the upper end frequencies. With the rear pillars being 2.5" can you suggest a starting point for the crossover.


Well, what I'd do if you're going to run both the pillars and the rear doors is to run a 4ch amp, and use its built-in crossovers to keep the 2.5" speakers happy. Mind you, this 4ch amp doesn't need to be expensive, or powerful. A cheap but good quality 25x4 or so would be more than enough. Anyway, you could then set the high pass crossover to a full-pass on the 6x9 (thus the MS-8 handles it), and the 2.5" speakers to something like 400hz or so, and then you'll also be able to adjust each gain so the 6x9's and 2.5's are somewhat level-matched, or biased how you like to hear them. Remember, the acoustic fill is all they'll be doing, so you don't want anything overpowering back there. Just enough to "feel" the ambiance. During the MS-8 setup but prior to calibration, there's a white noise test for output and you can then set up the 4ch and its gains with that. Then let the system calibrate, and see what you think.

You see, using the small 4ch amp instead of building or buying a set of L-pads and crossovers should end up being cheaper.


----------



## wrangler

fourthmeal said:


> Well, what I'd do if you're going to run both the pillars and the rear doors is to run a 4ch amp, and use its built-in crossovers to keep the 2.5" speakers happy. Mind you, this 4ch amp doesn't need to be expensive, or powerful. A cheap but good quality 25x4 or so would be more than enough. Anyway, you could then set the high pass crossover to a full-pass on the 6x9 (thus the MS-8 handles it), and the 2.5" speakers to something like 400hz or so, and then you'll also be able to adjust each gain so the 6x9's and 2.5's are somewhat level-matched, or biased how you like to hear them. Remember, the acoustic fill is all they'll be doing, so you don't want anything overpowering back there. Just enough to "feel" the ambiance. During the MS-8 setup but prior to calibration, there's a white noise test for output and you can then set up the 4ch and its gains with that. Then let the system calibrate, and see what you think.
> 
> You see, using the small 4ch amp instead of building or buying a set of L-pads and crossovers should end up being cheaper.


I should have clarified, I'll hook the 6x9's and have a listen, then disconnect them and hook up the 2.5's as a comparison. Quick and easy to do.


----------



## brianhj

Where can I get a replacement remote?


----------



## tbomb

Now i understand the plight of folks that struggled to get things sounds right with outboard amps! Just added MS-1004 and just got it to where it is OK sounding. Tried the "subs as front low" and it sounded terrible! Now the issue, I guess, is calibration volume and gains. Stage is pulling left and static/hiss at high volumes. I know I can get it worked out, but it sounded sooo good on just MS8 power that I had high hopes of sounding even better.


----------



## bradknob

I ran 3 MS amps off my MS-8. I feel your pain. A lot of tweaking but I did manage to get it sounding really good.


----------



## SQLnovice

bradknob said:


> I ran 3 MS amps off my MS-8. I feel your pain. A lot of tweaking but I did manage to get it sounding really good.


Brad, I'll be completing my install within the next 2 weeks. I have the same amps/processor as you did. If you don't mind I'll pm or email you if I need any advice.


----------



## bradknob

SQLnovice said:


> Brad, I'll be completing my install within the next 2 weeks. I have the same amps/processor as you did. If you don't mind I'll pm or email you if I need any advice.



Don't mind at all, and you won't be the first. Feel free to reach out whenever ur ready and we'll see if we can't get you sounding right.


----------



## SQLnovice

bradknob said:


> Don't mind at all, and you won't be the first. Feel free to reach out whenever ur ready and we'll see if we can't get you sounding right.


Thanks much appreciated.


----------



## kaigoss69

tbomb said:


> Now i understand the plight of folks that struggled to get things sounds right with outboard amps! Just added MS-1004 and just got it to where it is OK sounding. Tried the "subs as front low" and it sounded terrible! Now the issue, I guess, is calibration volume and gains. Stage is pulling left and static/hiss at high volumes. I know I can get it worked out, but it sounded sooo good on just MS8 power that I had high hopes of sounding even better.


That's because with the MS-8 internal amps every channel receives the same amount of power (level-matched). Once you add external amps, the levels between the channels change. If you don't match them very closely, you probably won't like the results.


----------



## tbomb

kaigoss69 said:


> That's because with the MS-8 internal amps every channel receives the same amount of power (level-matched). Once you add external amps, the levels between the channels change. If you don't match them very closely, you probably won't like the results.


thats what i was thinking. I am running pretty efficient aftermarket speakers with oem rears. The other difference is I was fully active when on ms8 power, but now front stage is passive. When doing the setup up and verifying speaker assignments they were all the same loudness on MS8 only, but now front are much louder than rear so worked that out. Now just have to keep recalibrating. I finally found the sweetspot with just the MS8 but now its all wonky.


----------



## Fantaxp7

t3sn4f2 said:


> Check that the MS-8 didn't semi-fry those speakers.


I've recently tried taking the RCA inputs on my amplifier out (from the MS-8) and plugged in a 3.5mm to RCA and tested with my phone, my front speakers sound fine. 

Another odd thing I've noticed is that my volume is very low as well...Someone have any idea? Going crazy here :worried:


----------



## bradknob

Fantaxp7 said:


> I've recently tried taking the RCA inputs on my amplifier out (from the MS-8) and plugged in a 3.5mm to RCA and tested with my phone, my front speakers sound fine.
> 
> 
> 
> Another odd thing I've noticed is that my volume is very low as well...Someone have any idea? Going crazy here :worried:




Try calibrating it with the volume a little lower. I had to calibrate mine at about -55 to get the loudness I wanted.

If you go too low, ms-8 will try to boost it and cause clipping. You may have to try it a few times to find the sweet spot


----------



## talan7

Perhaps we could have a local MS8 meet. People with MS* installed in their vehicles could meet and demo their systems and discuss calibration and set ups. I would love to hear how it sounds in someone else's car and to see how good my setup is. 

Anyone imterested? I'm in central Jersey.


----------



## talan7

If enough people are interested I'd be willing to help set something up.


----------



## SQLnovice

talan7 said:


> Perhaps we could have a local MS8 meet. People with MS* installed in their vehicles could meet and demo their systems and discuss calibration and set ups. I would love to hear how it sounds in someone else's car and to see how good my setup is.
> 
> Anyone imterested? I'm in central Jersey.


This is a great idea. I'll see if I can arrange something for the Miami area.


----------



## talan7

Anyone in the NY, NJ tristate area interested in a meet?


----------



## Sparrow

I'm trying to decide if the MS-8 is right for me, so hopefully someone can point me in the right direction.

Who is running a 3-way (or 2-way) active setup with the mids and tweeters mounted away form the woofer (woofer in the door)? Are you pleased with how the MS-8 tuned your system? I'm reading complaints from users that have their tweeters on axis in the A-pillars and they are getting a "wandering stage".

This concerns me since I was planning to mount a midrange driver in the dash factory location and maybe put the tweeter in the sail-panel, or on-top of the dash next to the midrange; midbass driver will go in the door.


----------



## SQLnovice

Well I got everything wired up and did a few calibrations of the ms8 and ms amps. Everything sounded amazing. Right away i taught this is the best sounding system i ever had, with one exception. Not enough volume. I listened to the system last nigh for about 30 minutes including a few calibrations. 
The sound stage was up in front of me, bass was great, midbass was on the low side. 

Bradknob--thanks for the fast pm reply and the information you provided. I'll re-calibrate with your suggestions later on tonight. 

Well, today i went to eat lunch and about 15 minutes into the drive, i lost all sound from the left side. 
My left tweeter and left midbass, both of these are on different ms1004 amps. 

I have one ms amp running my tweets 200 watts each and the other ms amp on my silver flute. I know its a lot of power for the tweets but since the ms amps have the volume control, i'm assuming this will not be an issue. 

I'll re-calibrate tonight and see if i get back sound on the left side. Also if anyone has any suggestion, please feel free to offer me your assistance. 

I'm going to be driving to Orlando and back tomorrow, its a 4 hour drive each way, so i'm hoping i'll be able to have so good music for the solo drive.


----------



## tbomb

Ive gotten a loty closer. Still have a little distortion but will keep playing with calibrating volume.

Tried "subs as front low" again but turned the output gain on amps up after calibration.....HOLY CRAP!!! Never have i ever had such a combo of clean and loud bass!

SQLnovice....what do you have your output gains set as? And do you change them post-calibration. I have found that (so far) that calibrating with them at 40 then turning them up to as far as you want to get the volume you are looking for.


----------



## bradknob

tbomb said:


> Ive gotten a loty closer. Still have a little distortion but will keep playing with calibrating volume.
> 
> Tried "subs as front low" again but turned the output gain on amps up after calibration.....HOLY CRAP!!! Never have i ever had such a combo of clean and loud bass!
> 
> SQLnovice....what do you have your output gains set as? And do you change them post-calibration. I have found that (so far) that calibrating with them at 40 then turning them up to as far as you want to get the volume you are looking for.



What volume are you doing the calibration? If it's too low, the ms8 will boost the levels to compensate and could cause clipping. Try calibrating with the ms8 volume a little higher.


----------



## tbomb

Its getting better the lower i go. When only using MS8 power, I would calibrate in low 30s, but that sounded awful with new amps. As i get lower its gets better. Last calibration was done at -45. Kaigoss said he calibrated at -55! What did you use since using similar setup. I did adjust input gains with CD this last time and it had me turn the up a little past half way. That seemed to help as well.


----------



## SQLnovice

bradknob said:


> What volume are you doing the calibration? If it's too low, the ms8 will boost the levels to compensate and could cause clipping. Try calibrating with the ms8 volume a little higher.


Originally ms8 volume was 20 during calibration. Ms amps at volume 30 and gain all the way down. 
I disconnected ms8 power as you suggested. Connected 4 hrs later, run setup, ms8 volume at 40, sub and midbass volume at 50, tweeter amp volume 45. 
Got sound from all 5 speakers  volume is Still low, so I increase volume on ms8 to 20, sub amp & midbass 70, tweeter 65.
Still not as loud as when I had the ms amps hooked up without the ms8, but sq is amazing. 
When I calibrate, my head unit volume is at 30 of 40, I'll try it again with volume at 15 (or any suggestions) 
Thanks everyone for your help.


----------



## SQLnovice

Once I get back home I'll start a log. I tried a few different calibrations and changed more than one thing. I'll pick a base setting and recalibrate, each time only change one thing and write it down so I know what effect that one change has, so I don't repeat the same mistakes.


----------



## tbomb

your headunit is irrelevant during acoustic calibration. Important only during initial setup, but with after market HU isnt needed. I just found my sweet spot. Calibrated at -47, amps at 40. After calibration turned 4 channel to 70 and mono to 75. Sounds incredible! Chest thumping bass up front, loud and clean with midbass like I have never heard. This is also using subs as front low. 

SQLnovice, try increasing the input gains on your amps slightly. Also, after calibration you need to crank MS8 volume up to -6 if using your HU volume control. This is why you arent getting any moar loud. I use the MS8 remote for volume, leaving my HU (oem) at the setting from setup. But with your Pioneer it could go both ways. But try setting the MS8 volume to -6 after you are finished with calibration and leaving it there. See how that sounds. Probably all you need to change from current point.


----------



## SQLnovice

Thanks a bunch. I'll give this a try before I start my 4 hrs drive back home. I might stick to 5 over the speed limit instead of 15, since I have volume out of all speakers.


----------



## bmxscion

I'm out doing some tuning and trying to figure out that why when a decently high volumes when driving my highs will cut out. I have two 4 ch amps running a 3 way active front stage. I checked all my rca connections and all were good. I did notice one thing I have never noticed before. My input rca connections on the ms8 have on on ch 1 and the other on ch 2. The input shows to use 1 and 5. I tried that and lost signal to my right mid and tweet, so I put it back to to 1 & 2. I'm just trying to figure out why when driving the highs cut out, only for a short time, then I'll turn it down a few clicks and they come back on. I have all my settings written down and can provide any other info if needed....

Edit: Just re-read the MS-8 manual. It says to only use CH 1 & 2 from the HU only. Do not connect any other output signals to CH 3-8 on the inputs. What would/could the other 6 inputs be used for then?


----------



## bradknob

tbomb said:


> Its getting better the lower i go. When only using MS8 power, I would calibrate in low 30s, but that sounded awful with new amps. As i get lower its gets better. Last calibration was done at -45. Kaigoss said he calibrated at -55! What did you use since using similar setup. I did adjust input gains with CD this last time and it had me turn the up a little past half way. That seemed to help as well.




Yes, with amps installed I would calibrate
As low as 60 on ms8 to get a good volume. As for the amps, every ones install would be different. I had 200 watts to 8"s in my doors bridged off a 4 channel and output volume would be 40-45 then up to 70ish afterwards.

Don't remember exactly but mids and tweets had a less drastic range. From 55 to about 65 after and those were getting only 100 watts



SQLnovice said:


> Once I get back home I'll start a log. I tried a few different calibrations and changed more than one thing. I'll pick a base setting and recalibrate, each time only change one thing and write it down so I know what effect that one change has, so I don't repeat the same mistakes.



I would recommend keeping a log as well. Change 1 thing at a time, that way if dislike the out come, u know what to change. Very time consuming but, sure fire method.


----------



## dengland

wrangler said:


> I've read, I've searched and would like input please for a new MS-8 installation.
> 2015 Jeep Cherokee with factory Alpine system. I'd like to start by just adding the MS-8 and upgrading speakers and/or amplifiers if needed.
> The dash has 3.5" for left, centre, and right.
> The front and rear doors have 6x9's
> The rear pillars have 2.5" for left and right.
> The subwoofer is an 8" DVC.
> All speakers are 2ohms.
> Would it be best to wire the front 5 speakers from 5 channels of the MS-8
> Re: sub, I thought about adding a small 2 channel amp that can drive the 2 ohm stereo for the factory sub, about 100 watts x 2. wired to the 8th channel.
> For the rear 6x9's and 2.5", would it be best to get a passive crossover and wire the 4 speakers to channels 6 and 7, not sure how to connect theses speakers for best all round sound.


The Jeep setup sounds similar to the 2014 RAM 1500 with the Alpine that I have. 

I spent a bunch of time measuring the starting point of the HU and factory speakers. If interested, I can send you a link to where I have that documented. It was an easy choice to replace the 3.5's in the dash to get a little more of a bottom end with the front stage.

I have the MS-8 set up as follows for outputs:

1 Dash Left (FL Hi)
2 Door Front Left (FL Lo)
3 Center (Center)
4 Dash Right (FR Hi)
5 Door Front Right (FR Lo)
6 Door Rear Left (SL)
7 Door Rear Right (SR)
8 Sub (Sub)

Inputs are:

1 Dash Left
2 Door Front Left
3 
4 Dash Right 
5 Door Front Right

My 2.5's are in the headliner behind the front seats. I believe I read in the MS-8 FAQ, a more full range speaker was desired for Sides (SL and SR). So I chose the rear door 6x9s over the headliner 2.5s. 

I am still playing with the settings. Mostly, it is the mid-Bass that I am trying to get right. Anything with a significant bottom end sounds fine (strong). That little 20W amp in the MS-8 will drive the 8" factory Sub pretty well. (I am driving just one of the two voice coils.) The whole sub as a front low discussion happened after I ran wires. (8 channels would mean giving up SL/SR because of the center unless the front door 6x9s were disconnected).


----------



## chofilena

Guys I'm thinking of doing a 3 way plus rear. To save me time doing the wiring, i will do my configuration like this.
Ch1 FL-hi (tweeter/ midrange using a 2.2uf cap)
Ch2 FL- mid (6.5 woofer)
Ch3 SL
Ch4 SR
Ch5 FR-mid
Ch6 FR-hi
Ch7 FL-lo
Ch8 FR-lo
Will this configuration be OK especially with the cap between the midrange and the tweeter? I never used the hidden menu and not sure if i should use it because I'm afraid i might damage something. But just in case. First, should i must remove the tweeter even with the capacitor before i use the output identification? Second, once i hit exit menu i should shut down the ms-8 and have it reboot. Meaning i turn off the ignition switch and turn it back on? Or is there another way of rebooting it? I hope this 3way plus rears will relieve me with my mid bass/ subwoofer problem.


----------



## tbomb

That general setup would work, but are you sure about that cap size. What tweeter/mid combo is this for? If your tweeter is 4 ohm, that works to a pretty high crossover point. You may want to do something for the mid as well so you don't have any break-up.


----------



## Ryanu

chofilena said:


> Guys I'm thinking of doing a 3 way plus rear. To save me time doing the wiring, i will do my configuration like this.
> Ch1 FL-hi (tweeter/ midrange using a 2.2uf cap)
> Ch2 FL- mid (6.5 woofer)
> Ch3 SL
> Ch4 SR
> Ch5 FR-mid
> Ch6 FR-hi
> Ch7 FL-lo
> Ch8 FR-lo
> Will this configuration be OK especially with the cap between the midrange and the tweeter? I never used the hidden menu and not sure if i should use it because I'm afraid i might damage something. But just in case. First, should i must remove the tweeter even with the capacitor before i use the output identification? Second, once i hit exit menu i should shut down the ms-8 and have it reboot. Meaning i turn off the ignition switch and turn it back on? Or is there another way of rebooting it? I hope this 3way plus rears will relieve me with my mid bass/ subwoofer problem.


To be on the safe side, I would consider getting a custom crossover for mid/tweet or get an appropriate 3 way crossover and connect the mid/tweet through it.

Regards,
Ryan


----------



## Lanson

It isn't impossible to make decent 2-way passive crossovers, especially if you are using an MS-8 which can take care of the EQ that might be necessary with a simple crossover (frequency response and sensitivity differences between mid and tweeter.) I built 3 passive crossovers using Dayton metalized foil capacitors, Jantzen air core inductors, proto-boards with project boxes, etc. all for about $60 for all of that. Extremely affordable, and it sounded fantastic. Add a few bucks if you want to use high quality connectors like I did, and you're golden. To figure out the crossover's details, I researched on the topic for about a week just to understand all the angles (filter type, reasons to use certain types of caps, inductors, etc., best practices when building one, and so on.) But in reality, it is easy. Just need to have inductance plots of each driver, and what I like to do is take the target frequency of the crossover (or thereabouts) and then plan my capacitor and inductor sizes/specs based off those. Sure, it won't be 100% linear due to inductance rise, but it is definitely good enough along with the MS-8 doing its job. 

More details on my crossovers here on my build log, starting around post #4
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-kind-lansons-2013-ford-flex-audio-build.html


----------



## wrangler

dengland said:


> The Jeep setup sounds similar to the 2014 RAM 1500 with the Alpine that I have.
> 
> I spent a bunch of time measuring the starting point of the HU and factory speakers. If interested, I can send you a link to where I have that documented. It was an easy choice to replace the 3.5's in the dash to get a little more of a bottom end with the front stage.
> 
> I have the MS-8 set up as follows for outputs:
> 
> 1 Dash Left (FL Hi)
> 2 Door Front Left (FL Lo)
> 3 Center (Center)
> 4 Dash Right (FR Hi)
> 5 Door Front Right (FR Lo)
> 6 Door Rear Left (SL)
> 7 Door Rear Right (SR)
> 8 Sub (Sub)
> 
> Inputs are:
> 
> 1 Dash Left
> 2 Door Front Left
> 3
> 4 Dash Right
> 5 Door Front Right
> 
> My 2.5's are in the headliner behind the front seats. I believe I read in the MS-8 FAQ, a more full range speaker was desired for Sides (SL and SR). So I chose the rear door 6x9s over the headliner 2.5s.
> 
> I am still playing with the settings. Mostly, it is the mid-Bass that I am trying to get right. Anything with a significant bottom end sounds fine (strong). That little 20W amp in the MS-8 will drive the 8" factory Sub pretty well. (I am driving just one of the two voice coils.) The whole sub as a front low discussion happened after I ran wires. (8 channels would mean giving up SL/SR because of the center unless the front door 6x9s were disconnected).


Please send me the link.

I've been reading about Helix's DSP's and am contemplating their new 10 channel, apparently it will be available to the Canadian market in a week or two...


----------



## bradknob

wrangler said:


> Please send me the link.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been reading about Helix's DSP's and am contemplating their new 10 channel, apparently it will be available to the Canadian market in a week or two...



I went from the ms-8 to the helix DSP. (8 channel). Best switch I ever made


----------



## chofilena

I have a 2 way passive xover by cdt ex-484 24db. So you suggest using this instead of the cap? Im using the CDT drt25 tweeters, CDT es03 midrange and the es-600 for mid bass all powered by a RF T400-4. And a shallow mount single sub by pioneer TS-SW841D powered by RF T500-1bd amp.


----------



## dengland

wrangler said:


> Please send me the link.
> 
> I've been reading about Helix's DSP's and am contemplating their new 10 channel, apparently it will be available to the Canadian market in a week or two...


Here is the link:
Measuring the Alpine System - DODGE RAM FORUM - Ram Forums and Owners Club! - Dodge Truck Forum

The signature at that site has a link to my MS-8 install chronical.


----------



## SQLnovice

Anyone knows why my fade left and right is the opposite when I use the ms8 audio control? On setup, when I do the speakers sound test, everything is where it should be. If more information is needed I'll give later once I'm on my pc.


----------



## tbomb

U have the remote upside dowm? 



More info please


----------



## 14642

Left and right input are plugged in backwards?


----------



## SQLnovice

Thanks I'll switch them and recalibrate. Thanks Andy. The deciding factor for me getting the ms8 was you contributions to this forum. I have a few kinks to work out and I'll be in musical bliss real soon.


----------



## SQLnovice

I switched the main rca input on the ms8 and it didn't fix the opposite left right fade. Then I went and switched all the left speakers to right and right to left during calibration and this took care of the opposite fade issue. 
I think I have my ms amps input mixer screwed up. 
Not an ms8 question, but hopefully someone here has an answer. I have 2 ms-1004 amps, both are bridged 2 channels each. I think on page 12 or 14 of the manual says for 2 channels, input rca's should be on input 1 and 3. And top input mixer should set as 1&2, and bottom input mixer should set as 3&4. Is this correct? Or did I screwed up this one too. 
Thanks in advance.


----------



## tbomb

no. input mixer should say 1 and 3.


----------



## tbomb

so I am still tweaking away....getting closer. still some distortion but only when cranked. the weird thing is its worse with cd's (of good quality) and my ipod input. FM sounds good, as does bluetoothed pandora/amazon music?


----------



## SQLnovice

tbomb said:


> no. input mixer should say 1 and 3.


Thanks, this is what I had originally thought it should be. I'll change it tomorrow and go from there.


----------



## chofilena

Ryanu said:


> To be on the safe side, I would consider getting a custom crossover for mid/tweet or get an appropriate 3 way crossover and connect the mid/tweet through it.
> 
> Regards,
> Ryan


Guys i just finished installing my passive xover for my mid/ tweeters. And right now I'm running 3 way + sides with no sub. Wow! it made a big difference everything sounds better mid bass is strong and for the sub you can hardly notice it but you can feel the rumbling. Everything now seems to sound balance and complete. My next project now, is to level match my amplifiers maybe it would give me better results and hear what is everybody here is talking about. So please can anyone teach me how i can work my level matching using the hidden menu. Thanks


----------



## KenNorton

fourthmeal said:


> Seems excessive and not good. Double-triple check powers and grounds, maybe upgrade wire if any part is iffy. I used 8 gauge, power my rear and center, and it barely gets warm.


Yes, I know something is just not right.

Since the wires are good, I am thinking the MS8 internal power is cranking too much to keep up with the powerful Linear Power amps. I have tried to lower down the gain with no noticeable result. 

I will check by using all channel run by MS8 internal amp or adding 1 more amp to prove this theory. Hopefully by this weekend.


----------



## Lanson

Check voltage at the MS8 with a meter, connect volt meter to power and ground terminal on the MS8. Make sure it is really close to battery voltage. Then measure the same but on the connection point of the ground, vs. the MS-8's power terminal. Again, you want really close to battery voltage. A severe voltage drop would be bad for the MS-8.


----------



## tbomb

I finally am really, really close. Got the volume i desire a very clean right up to the edge. I cant imagine i could setup/tune it any better. I think i am at the point that my HU is the limiting factor with this distortion thing. Maybe if i could find someone with VAGCOM to recode my HU it would help, but havent had any luck.

I set my input gains using the MS cd, out put gains at 35 on 4ch and 60 on sub. Calibration volume at -43. After i crank the input gains to about 5/8 and the outputs to 60 on 4ch and 80 on mono. This is the absolute best i can get it. Not running center right now, have to redo enclosure. Hesitant to go thru this all again. It sounds good and loud, but overall was better on just MS8 power, just lacked that last bit of output. I really like these MS amps, but feel like could be overkill to use them with MS8.


----------



## SQLnovice

tbomb said:


> I finally am really, really close. Got the volume i desire a very clean right up to the edge. I cant imagine i could setup/tune it any better. I think i am at the point that my HU is the limiting factor with this distortion thing. Maybe if i could find someone with VAGCOM to recode my HU it would help, but havent had any luck.
> 
> I set my input gains using the MS cd, out put gains at 35 on 4ch and 60 on sub. Calibration volume at -43. After i crank the input gains to about 5/8 and the outputs to 60 on 4ch and 80 on mono. This is the absolute best i can get it. Not running center right now, have to redo enclosure. Hesitant to go thru this all again. It sounds good and loud, but overall was better on just MS8 power, just lacked that last bit of output. I really like these MS amps, but feel like could be overkill to use them with MS8.


Nice. I'm back to loosing volume on my right tweets and right silver flute. And they are on different amps. I calibration to your suggested specs and was able to get decent acceptable volume. 
Tbomb--I'll pm you if I have any questions that needs a quick answer. If it's okay with you.


----------



## tbomb

of course. i have a lot of answers but, obviously, not all of them.


----------



## tbomb

Just played some HQ tracks from HD tracks.....sounded amazing at insane volumes, even through phones bluetooth. So clearly my HU is now the one thing holding me back now.


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## SQLnovice

I just had an ms-8gasm.


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## SQLnovice

We'll one of my ms-1004 is defective which was causing all my tuning issues. I switched over everything to the other ms-1004 and I was blown away (hence the gasm) still have some little tuning, eq is still flat. I'll update later. At happy hour and can't wait to get back into my car. Thanks to everyone, but I'll still need future advice.


----------



## The real Subzero

I think my MS8 will soon be up for sale or tossed in the storage shed.


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## tbomb

The real Subzero said:


> I think my MS8 will soon be up for sale or tossed in the storage shed.




Why?


----------



## swargolet

I'm having some issues with one of my woofers cutting in and out so I went out to measure some things today. While playing a 1khz 0dB tone, with the MS8 set at 0dB and all processing turned off, I measured 608.5mV on the Left woofer and 599.6 on the right woofer. This seems insanely low to me. Is it really low and should there be a voltage difference between the two?


----------



## chofilena

Guys I'm using 3 way with no sub + sides. Since I'm using a single sub for my front low will be it possible to use a single output and still do a 3 way configuration? This is my configuration right now with very good results.
Output 1 mid/ tweeter using a passive xover. T400-4 
Output 2 woofer
Output 3 SL amplified using P400-4 
Output 4 SR
Output 5 woofer 
Output 6 mid/ tweeter 
Output 7 and 8 for a single sub. (front low) amp P400-4 bridged.
Im hoping i can use output 7 as a center speaker and output 8 ( amp T500-1) with a y- connector to the amp as front low. This way i will have a center speaker and the same time run a 3way with no sub+ sides configuration. But will this be possible? I don't want to use the sub of the ms-8 because i think that causes everybody's problem.


----------



## kaigoss69

swargolet said:


> I'm having some issues with one of my woofers cutting in and out so I went out to measure some things today. While playing a 1khz 0dB tone, with the MS8 set at 0dB and all processing turned off, I measured 608.5mV on the Left woofer and 599.6 on the right woofer. This seems insanely low to me. Is it really low and should there be a voltage difference between the two?


Those measurements don't mean much unless you tell us at what volume your source unit was playing at. Also, is 1khz is bit high for woofers I would think. Try a frequency closer to the highpass filter. I'm not 100% sure but I remember reading that most DVMs don't give you accurate Vrms readings unless the frequency is 60Hz.

As for the difference in the readings, that's just over 1% - hardly anything to worry about.

Regardless, if something is wrong with the output to the woofers, your ears and eyes should be better judges anyway.


----------



## kaigoss69

chofilena said:


> Guys I'm using 3 way with no sub + sides. Since I'm using a single sub for my front low will be it possible to use a single output and still do a 3 way configuration? This is my configuration right now with very good results.
> Output 1 mid/ tweeter using a passive xover. T400-4
> Output 2 woofer
> Output 3 SL amplified using P400-4
> Output 4 SR
> Output 5 woofer
> Output 6 mid/ tweeter
> Output 7 and 8 for a single sub. (front low) amp P400-4 bridged.
> Im hoping i can use output 7 as a center speaker and output 8 ( amp T500-1) with a y- connector to the amp as front low. This way i will have a center speaker and the same time run a 3way with no sub+ sides configuration. But will this be possible? I don't want to use the sub of the ms-8 because i think that causes everybody's problem.


You cannot do that. If you need the center, you either need to set-up as 2-way front and piggy-back the sub off of the front low outputs, or get rid of the sides.


----------



## 14642

swargolet said:


> I'm having some issues with one of my woofers cutting in and out so I went out to measure some things today. While playing a 1khz 0dB tone, with the MS8 set at 0dB and all processing turned off, I measured 608.5mV on the Left woofer and 599.6 on the right woofer. This seems insanely low to me. Is it really low and should there be a voltage difference between the two?



.12dB difference? That's well within any tolerance and absolutely inaudible. Are you measuring 1kHz on a speaker for which 1kHz is in the passband? Woofers don't really play 1kHz.


----------



## The real Subzero

tbomb said:


> Why?


Cant get what I need out of it. I DD1 gain set my amps and MS8 killed the output. I must have set that thing 30 times and it never keeps amplitude. I dont want my stuff getting ruined from clipping or over powering. I heard Andy will be in town this weekend, maybe I can get him to set my system while he is there.


----------



## chofilena

Thank you kaigoss69. What would you rather have the sides or the center for sq? Or maybe i should get a 3way passive xover and run 2way with no sub + sides + center (7 outputs on the ms-8). How do you think that will sound? Tweeter A pillar left tweeter facing front passenger , midrange on pillars facing each other and woofer on doors stock location.


----------



## kaigoss69

I would keep your current setup. No center.


----------



## talan7

The real Subzero said:


> I think my MS8 will soon be up for sale or tossed in the storage shed.


I'm with you. it took me all summer to get it tuned to sound good but I keep getting intermittent bouts of static coming out of the right front tweeter. I keep thinking the tweeter is blown then I'd recalibrate and the static will go away for awhile. It always comes back though. Can the MS8 calibration degrade over time? It seems like that's what's happening to me. After recalibration it will sound great. 
I'm getting tired of this. My last try will be to update the system and see if that helps anything. Has anyone found updating to help with noise/static? Maybe it could be a ground. It's worse when I'm driving, I don't get it at all or much when sitting still.


----------



## swargolet

kaigoss69 said:


> Those measurements don't mean much unless you tell us at what volume your source unit was playing at. Also, is 1khz is bit high for woofers I would think. Try a frequency closer to the highpass filter. I'm not 100% sure but I remember reading that most DVMs don't give you accurate Vrms readings unless the frequency is 60Hz.
> 
> As for the difference in the readings, that's just over 1% - hardly anything to worry about.
> 
> Regardless, if something is wrong with the output to the woofers, your ears and eyes should be better judges anyway.


I was using my phone as the source unit and going through the MS8's aux port. I wonder if I should use something else. I used 1khz as that is what I was using to set the gains on my JL HD amp as per the manual and figured I'd measure the output of the MS8 as well. Since it seemed crazy low to me for playing at 0dB I figured I'd ask about it.

The reason I started checking it in the first place is because my front left woofer/midbass (Focal KRX2 woofer) is cutting in and out when the volume is too low and when it is too high. I think it is the amp, but wanted to check the MS8 as well. 

I didn't think that the difference would be a huge problem, but figured I'd ask. Thanks.




Andy Wehmeyer said:


> .12dB difference? That's well within any tolerance and absolutely inaudible. Are you measuring 1kHz on a speaker for which 1kHz is in the passband? Woofers don't really play 1kHz.


Sorry, I should have said midbass if anything. It is from a Focal KRX2 set. I have the LPF between the woofer and tweeter at 2.5khz, so shouldn't 1khz be OK? Should I try a different frequency?


----------



## swargolet

The real Subzero said:


> Cant get what I need out of it. I DD1 gain set my amps and MS8 killed the output. I must have set that thing 30 times and it never keeps amplitude. I dont want my stuff getting ruined from clipping or over powering. I heard Andy will be in town this weekend, maybe I can get him to set my system while he is there.


I also seem to notice that the MS8 kills the output and no one seems to have an answer on this. I tried different calibration levels and different gain settings before and after calibration with no luck. I'm really thinking about adding in another amp so I'll be pushing 1000W to the front speakers, but that seems absurd to me.


----------



## chofilena

kaigoss69 said:


> I would keep your current setup. No center.


Thank you. I'm really happy with how my system sounds now with the 3 way no sub and amplifying the sides. But could be better if i can get It louder. My comfortable volume when driving is at 25 and max volume of the head unit is 40 (used 30 during calibration).
Ill try different volume during calibration and see if it will improve, any suggestions?


----------



## kaigoss69

chofilena said:


> Thank you. I'm really happy with how my system sounds now with the 3 way no sub and amplifying the sides. But could be better if i can get It louder. My comfortable volume when driving is at 25 and max volume of the head unit is 40 (used 30 during calibration).
> Ill try different volume during calibration and see if it will improve, any suggestions?


MS-8 calibration volume has no impact on final system volume, neither does head unit volume during calibration. If you don't get enough volume with the processor at -6 and the HU at 40 (unclipped), then you should raise amp gains.


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## chofilena

kaigoss69 said:


> MS-8 calibration volume has no impact on final system volume, neither does head unit volume during calibration. If you don't get enough volume with the processor at -6 and the HU at 40 (unclipped), then you should raise amp gains.


Raise amp gains after or before calibration? If after would it affect sq?


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## kaigoss69

chofilena said:


> Raise amp gains after or before calibration? If after would it affect sq?


Before calibration!


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## swargolet

kaigoss69 said:


> Before calibration!


Wait what? I thought Andy always said to raise all the gains by the same amount AFTER calibration. What I've always done is level match the speakers as best as possible to the center (which in my case is powered by the MS8 so I cant adjust), run calibration, and then turn up gains a tiny bit.


----------



## chofilena

Thank you. I am now very happy with my music and i think this is the best i ever had with the ms-8. Now i got the itch of upgrading my tweeters from CDT drt25 to the seas 27 TAFNC/G. I have read good reviews with this tweeter and it gets me curious. Since its digitally processed by the ms-8, will it make a big difference in SQ or will it be just a waste of money? I'm using the CDT es03 midrange and the CDT es600 woofer you think the seas will match with them?


----------



## SQLnovice

I have no idea how to set my ms8 eq. I watched a video on YouTube and some guy said to play pink noise and use an app to get the frequency line as flat as possible. So I decided to give it a shot and now my ears are not my friend. What can I say. This is what happens when you take on a hobby with no prior technical experience. Can anyone post up pics of their eq so i have a start off point. I listen to a little of everything. 40% indian, 20% rap, 40% mix of all other.


----------



## swargolet

SQLnovice said:


> I have no idea how to set my ms8 eq. I watched a video on YouTube and some guy said to play pink noise and use an app to get the frequency line as flat as possible. So I decided to give it a shot and now my ears are not my friend. What can I say. This is what happens when you take on a hobby with no prior technical experience. Can anyone post up pics of their eq so i have a start off point. I listen to a little of everything. 40% indian, 20% rap, 40% mix of all other.


One person's EQ will and should be totally different than another's EQ, so dont just try and match what someone else has. First thing though is you need to make sure your installation is setup correctly. That means that all your speakers are in phase, your gains are set properly, you are doing the calibration at an appropriate level(~ -35dB), etc..

Secondly, you really don't want a flat 'line'. Our ears perceive different frequencies at different levels. Look up fletcher munson curve. In general, you want a downward sloping curve where the it looks almost like a logarithmic curve.

For instance. THIS GRAPH is when I tried to create a flat response, which ended up sounding pretty bad. THIS GRAPH is when I did a downward sloping curve which sounded a LOT better. I did more tuning afterwards as I lost some midbass punch and some of the highs but it should give you an idea on what I'm talking about.


----------



## SQLnovice

swargolet-- Thank you very much. It's individuals like yourself that made me become a paid member. It was the only way could show my support for this forum. I have no knowledge to contribute to this forum yet, but in the future I will. I'm always very grateful to the members that that offer their knowledge for free, whether its to my questions directly or to others.
I hope this doesn't make it into the thread "stupidest thing someone did"
Thanks again for the graphs and explanation. I'm gonna grab 2 beers to calm down my ears.


----------



## tbomb

Of course, as I get it sounding better, I think I can keep getting it better. I need to recalibrate as my center is not there, but it sounds sooo good until the highest volumes. The worst is with heavy female vocals. My thoughts are that my tweeter position could help things. They are currently shoved in the stock housing. This makes them boarder on firing slightly toward the front of car. like maybe 5degrees. It will take some custom work, but do you think having them more on axis would help. I'm talking maybe 15 degrees in. I think this might keep MS8 from boosting the overlap of the comps to much. They are running passively. Or even thinking of moving the tweeter down the door panel to just above mid. Thoughts?


----------



## Lanson

FWIW, the MS8's base level EQ works for me almost ideally...like 95% there. I typically then work up some extra mid-bass, and adjust the bass shelf (which remember, is not an actual subwoofer volume, but a sub/midbass shelf instead) in the main menu controls, and that's about it. 

I've found being conservative with crossover settings, and using the steepest crossovers possible helps a lot. The MS-8 seems to be built for that. Remember it can't make something of nothing, so you want to make sure that your speakers and combinations of passive setups actually can output the full range you are asking of them. Don't set a 3.5" speaker to crossover at 90hz HP, for instance. Be conservative with crossover numbers, like 75-80hz + on a 6.5" midbass, or thereabouts. Not 60hz. The MS-8 will tweak things anyway, so the crossover settings you pick are more like "suggestions" to the MS-8.


----------



## tbomb

My particular issue, i feel , is dealing with the crossover point of my passives. Its a typical 6.5" comp set. But I cant find ANY info regarding the specs of them. Other than general FR and wattage. Would love to know the Fs of each speaker, as well as the crossover point of the passives. JBL doesnt show any of this info anywhere that i can find.


----------



## cybercop

What is this? It says MS8 but doesn't look like one I have seen before

JBL MS-8


----------



## GaborB

Andy or someone who already worked on rewiring the LCD display, can you please share info?

My MS8 is with broken display connector within the MS8 unit itself and I lost the original display cable. 
I'm thinking of buying a 4core shielded cable and rewire everything between the LCD and MS8.
I've seen the connector pinout at the MS8 side, but I would need the same of the micro 4 pin connector which is located inside of the LCD, so I would know what goes where.

As far as I can see the connector soldered to the MS8 PCB has the followin pinout.

1 - SCL
4 - 5V
5 - SDA
6 - GND

Can someone has the equivalent for the LCD micro connector? Possible with colours, so pin1 can be identified?

Thanks, Gabor


----------



## wrangler

Is it possible to run 2 of them together in the same install.
i.e. one for the front and one for rear


----------



## SQLnovice

fourthmeal said:


> FWIW, the MS8's base level EQ works for me almost ideally...like 95% there. I typically then work up some extra mid-bass, and adjust the bass shelf (which remember, is not an actual subwoofer volume, but a sub/midbass shelf instead) in the main menu controls, and that's about it.
> 
> I've found being conservative with crossover settings, and using the steepest crossovers possible helps a lot. The MS-8 seems to be built for that. Remember it can't make something of nothing, so you want to make sure that your speakers and combinations of passive setups actually can output the full range you are asking of them. Don't set a 3.5" speaker to crossover at 90hz HP, for instance. Be conservative with crossover numbers, like 75-80hz + on a 6.5" midbass, or thereabouts. Not 60hz. The MS-8 will tweak things anyway, so the crossover settings you pick are more like "suggestions" to the MS-8.


Thank you very much. I watched your video on youtube and it helped a lot.


----------



## SQLnovice

Got back my emplacement amp from sonic. Hook it up and did a quick calibration with the MS-8, and i'm in sweet music ecstasy again. I'm very happy. 
I calibrate with ms-8 volume at 50, mid-bass volume at 60, tweeter volume at 55 and sub volume at 60. Gains on all the MS amps were all the way down. After calibration I raised mid-bass amp volume to 75 and increase gain a little. Tweeter amp gain stayed all the way down but increase volume to 68. Sub amp volume was increased to 75 and gain was also increased. MS-8 volume was increased to 6. 
Music sounds really good to my satisfaction. I would like a little more volume, but i'll be able to get there with a few more calibrations. 
The bass is the best I ever had. I honestly can not tell where the sub is located. This just happen this way, I did not intended to have this outcome, but its great. The only thing that takes away from the bass is that the back of my seat vibrates, and once you feel the vibration, it make it seems that the bass is coming from the rear. But if I sit without my back touching the seat, it just feels amazing.


----------



## Lanson

wrangler said:


> Is it possible to run 2 of them together in the same install.
> i.e. one for the front and one for rear


Why would you want front and rear? 16 channels?

The acoustic calibration won't work properly, as one MS-8 has to "hear" the whole system as one. However, you CAN use crossovers (active and/or passive) and additional amps to get more channels/drivers in the mix.

It also may be possible to use another type of DSP that is more mundane, without mic-listening and program a few things for a few drivers, then let the MS-8 work out the details, but that's a lot of complexity, potentially.


----------



## Lanson

SQLnovice said:


> Thank you very much. I watched your video on youtube and it helped a lot.





SQLnovice said:


> Got back my emplacement amp from sonic. Hook it up and did a quick calibration with the MS-8, and i'm in sweet music ecstasy again. I'm very happy.
> I calibrate with ms-8 volume at 50, mid-bass volume at 60, tweeter volume at 55 and sub volume at 60. Gains on all the MS amps were all the way down. After calibration I raised mid-bass amp volume to 75 and increase gain a little. Tweeter amp gain stayed all the way down but increase volume to 68. Sub amp volume was increased to 75 and gain was also increased. MS-8 volume was increased to 6.
> Music sounds really good to my satisfaction. I would like a little more volume, but i'll be able to get there with a few more calibrations.
> The bass is the best I ever had. I honestly can not tell where the sub is located. This just happen this way, I did not intended to have this outcome, but its great. The only thing that takes away from the bass is that the back of my seat vibrates, and once you feel the vibration, it make it seems that the bass is coming from the rear. But if I sit without my back touching the seat, it just feels amazing.


Thanks man, happy to help! Glad the system is coming together


----------



## chofilena

I never had this Whine in my rear side speakers. Why all of a sudden it came out? What could be the cause?


----------



## SQLnovice

I think I just popped both of my tweeters. I defeat processing, then turned the volume up to max clip. All the filters are off on my MS amps and now my tweeters volume are very low. After I noticed that the tweeters were very quiet, that's when I realized that with processing defeated on the MS-8 I was sending them a full range signal. Is this correct? And is this possible to blow my tweeters?


----------



## 14642

No, processing defeated doesn't eliminate the crossovers, only the EQ, time alignment and Logic7


----------



## SQLnovice

Thanks I'll double check other things.


----------



## dengland

SQLnovice said:


> I calibrate with ms-8 volume at 50, mid-bass volume at 60, tweeter volume at 55 and sub volume at 60. Gains on all the MS amps were all the way down. After calibration I raised mid-bass amp volume to 75 and increase gain a little. Tweeter amp gain stayed all the way down but increase volume to 68. Sub amp volume was increased to 75 and gain was also increased. MS-8 volume was increased to 6.


Could you be more precise please? MS volume @50? 

Thanks


----------



## SQLnovice

Thanks Andy. It was my error. I'm in musical bliss again. Once I had everything set, I had saved it as favorite 1, and somehow I got out of favorite 1, but once I went back to favorite 1 settings, everything came back alive. I'm not 100% sure of this, because i'm still in the learning process, but i'm back to my musical bliss again.


----------



## SQLnovice

dengland said:


> Could you be more precise please? MS volume @50?
> 
> Thanks


I caliberate with the MS-8 volume @ -50. Then once completed, I increased MS-8 volume to -6.


----------



## SQLnovice

I did 2 calibrations. 

First:
The first calibration:
MS-8 volume -50
MS 1004 amp (bridged to mid-bass) gain all the way down, volume 60
MS 1004 amp (bridged to tweeters) gain all the way down, volume 55
MS 1005 amp (sub) gain all the way down, volume 60 
Once completed I
Increased MS-8 volume to -6
Increased all the amp gains to about 12 o'clock
Increased all amps volume to my liking (cant remember, but I can get it if anyone need them.

Second
Then I reset the MS-8
Set MS-8 Volume to 55 this time, not 50 like the first calibration. (since the volumes and gains were increased, I taught it would be okay to decrease the MS-8 volume a little. 
All my amps gains and volumes stayed as above.
I run my setup again. Then Increase MS-8 volume to -6. 
And this was the best tune i'v had so far. 

ps. my english is not 100%, but i'm trying my best. 

I know the manual says to keep the MS amps gain all the way down. Which is what I did in the first calibration. However, once I set the gains and volumes on all the amps and re-calibrate at a lesser volume. Everything just came alive. 

I Will enjoy this for a few weeks, while I plan my 3-way front instead of my current 2-way.


----------



## kaigoss69

Look guys, the absolute values for MS-8 calibration volume and amp gains mean nothing. In the end you need to make sure that 

1. The sweeps are at conversation volume
2. The sweeps between tweeter and midrange channels are all about the same volume (within 2-3 db)
3. The sweeps of dedicated midbass channels can be increased about 4-5 dB (I think this helps)
4. The sweeps of the subwoofer are very low volume (hear, but don't feel).
5. Use each speaker only in its usable frequency range (be conservative!).

The subwoofer sweeps are actually the most complicated part of the equation. It takes some experimentation to get it right. Sometimes though, no matter what you do the subwoofer does not get integrated correctly (either too boomy or the midbass sucks). Then it helps to set the system up such that the subs are assigned as front lows.

The amp gains can be set with the MS-8 hidden menu through "output identification" where it plays pink noise through each channel separately. This is the best way to level match all the channels. For me, I set the MS-8 volume at -25, then shoot for around 75dB volume out of the mids and tweeters, measured at the driver head position. I set the midbass at 80, and the sub at 84. This works for me but your circumstances may be different.


----------



## Darth SQ

kaigoss69 said:


> Look guys, the absolute values for MS-8 calibration volume and amp gains mean nothing. In the end you need to make sure that
> 
> 1. The sweeps are at conversation volume
> 2. The sweeps between tweeter and midrange channels are all about the same volume (within 2-3 db)
> 3. The sweeps of dedicated midbass channels can be increased about 4-5 dB (I think this helps)
> 4. The sweeps of the subwoofer are very low volume (hear, but don't feel).
> 5. Use each speaker only in its usable frequency range (be conservative!).
> 
> The subwoofer sweeps are actually the most complicated part of the equation. It takes some experimentation to get it right. Sometimes though, no matter what you do the subwoofer does not get integrated correctly (either too boomy or the midbass sucks). Then it helps to set the system up such that the subs are assigned as front lows.
> 
> The amp gains can be set with the MS-8 hidden menu through "output identification" where it plays pink noise through each channel separately. This is the best way to level match all the channels. For me, I set the MS-8 volume at -25, then shoot for around 75dB volume out of the mids and tweeters, measured at the driver head position. I set the midbass at 80, and the sub at 84. This works for me but your circumstances may be different.


Damn good summary here. :thumbsup:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## SQLnovice

Ksigoss69-- thanks a bunch. I'm actually considering buying another MS-8 and stash it away. This is my first dsp and it has everything I wanted. I'm just amazed at the technology in this thing.


----------



## dengland

kaigoss69 said:


> The subwoofer sweeps are actually the most complicated part of the equation. It takes some experimentation to get it right. Sometimes though, no matter what you do the subwoofer does not get integrated correctly (either too boomy or the midbass sucks). *Then it helps to set the system up such that the subs are assigned as front lows.*


Agreed, good summary. 

Sub(s) as a Front Low means you give up the center. I have been trying to keep it as that is what the designer of the box intended. Of course that center seems to be my weakest link at the moment...


----------



## tbomb

You dont have to "give up center" just have to add external crossover for front. Right now i am passive, but my amps could allow me to go active so will probably try it. But the subs as front low has been the best integration of midbass/subbass i have ever had.


----------



## The real Subzero

I pulled my MS-8. and I am glad I did. Sounds so much better direct from 80prs. Anyone want to buy an MS8? or trade for a Alpine MRD-M1000


----------



## sixspeed

The real Subzero said:


> I pulled my MS-8. and I am glad I did. Sounds so much better direct from 80prs. Anyone want to buy an MS8? or trade for a Alpine MRD-M1000


pm sent.


----------



## Ryanu

After i have installed helix dsp in my own car.. i transferred the ms8 to my wife's car. An aftermarket 2 way component and stock rear speakers powered directly by the ms8. Also i have a 10 inch sub powered by a monoblock. With 18wrms... the ms8 did give a good punch on the midbass. It is a good piece of equipment if u know what to do. Just my honest opinion. When i have the time i will definitely switch to active setup.... it gonna be even better.


----------



## cybercop

If you want to run 3 way active in front and 2 way active in the rear with a sub channel, would that even be possible with the MS8?


----------



## bmxscion

cybercop said:


> If you want to run 3 way active in front and 2 way active in the rear with a sub channel, would that even be possible with the MS8?


MS-8 only has 8 channels. You could everything you said minus the sub channel, or omit the rears and have a ch for the subs.


----------



## tbomb

cybercop said:


> If you want to run 3 way active in front and 2 way active in the rear with a sub channel, would that even be possible with the MS8?


This has been covered quite a bit. Couple different ways to handle this. You would need some other form of processing for mid/tweets up front. Either external xover or with amps that capable xovers. Another option, if using external amps, is if your midbass amp has an output you could run the ms8 subless, use amp xover to cutoff midbass and send the signal to sub amp.


----------



## cybercop

tbomb said:


> This has been covered quite a bit. Couple different ways to handle this. You would need some other form of processing for mid/tweets up front. Either external xover or with amps that capable xovers. Another option, if using external amps, is if your midbass amp has an output you could run the ms8 subless, use amp xover to cutoff midbass and send the signal to sub amp.


Thanks for the reply. How would time alignment work if you didn't use the active crossover of the MS8? Does time alignment affect the time delay of the frequency being outputted, or is it s delay of the entire cross-over spectrum going to the speaker?

If I have a set of components with a passive crossover between a Mid Bass and a Tweeter, let's say at crossover point is 1K, connected to a MS8, will it time delay the frequencies below 1k separately than above 1k, or does it look at the component pair as one drive and time delay between the other drivers?


----------



## tbomb

Definitely need to check the MS8 FAQ. It times aligns by channel not frequency. Time alignment above 2khz isnt important. So if going passive, disconnect or cover the tweeters during the TA sweep only.


----------



## fantasy

I've read around and it seems that most people that run the ms8 have a center speaker. People are also saying that it sounds alot better with a center speaker. 

My car doesn't come with one and I'm not looking to add one. Is it still worth it to get the ms8 and let it do its magic?


----------



## t3sn4f2

fantasy said:


> I've read around and it seems that most people that run the ms8 have a center speaker. People are also saying that it sounds alot better with a center speaker.
> 
> My car doesn't come with one and I'm not looking to add one. Is it still worth it to get the ms8 and let it do its magic?


Absolutely, the majority of people that have had success with it do not have center channels.


----------



## fantasy

t3sn4f2 said:


> Absolutely, the majority of people that have had success with it do not have center channels.


Cool, thanks!

I'm planning to get one this week. Been reading up on this thread and also the manual online alot. I'll probably be needing help since I've never installed any kind of processor in my car.


----------



## t3sn4f2

fantasy said:


> Cool, thanks!
> 
> I'm planning to get one this week. Been reading up on this thread and also the manual online alot. I'll probably be needing help since I've never installed any kind of processor in my car.


No problem. There's also an FAQ thread for it on here somewhere. Should give you the meat and potatoes on how to get it setup.


----------



## fantasy

Two answers that I need to know to see if I'll need more equipments:

- Does the ms8 require me to run my front components active? I plan to bridge my 4ch amp and run the front components passive. The rears will be powered off my stock hu.

- My hu has a stock external amp. I think the amp is also doing all the eq'ing. The manual says only connect the front left, front right, and sub speaker outputs from the stock wire harness into the ms8's hi level inputs. Would I need to connect the speaker wires after the hu into the ms8's inputs, or the wires after the stock amp into the ms8's inputs? Does it make a difference? Do I have to cut the wires out and connect it to the ms8's input or can I just tap it?

Thanks!


----------



## gumbeelee

fantasy said:


> Two answers that I need to know to see if I'll need more equipments:
> 
> - Does the ms8 require me to run my front components active? I plan to bridge my 4ch amp and run the front components passive. The rears will be powered off my stock hu.
> 
> - My hu has a stock external amp. I think the amp is also doing all the eq'ing. The manual says only connect the front left, front right, and sub speaker outputs from the stock wire harness into the ms8's hi level inputs. Would I need to connect the speaker wires after the hu into the ms8's inputs, or the wires after the stock amp into the ms8's inputs? Does it make a difference? Do I have to cut the wires out and connect it to the ms8's input or can I just tap it?
> 
> Thanks!


No you do not have to run any of your speakers active when using the ms-8 unless you choose to. As far as the internal amp is concerned i am pretty sure, but not completely because i have never used ms-8 hi-level inputs with a stock headunit, i have only used aftermarket hu's. I am almost 100% sure you wire from hu to ms8 then to amp.


----------



## gumbeelee

fantasy said:


> Two answers that I need to know to see if I'll need more equipments:
> 
> - Does the ms8 require me to run my front components active? I plan to bridge my 4ch amp and run the front components passive. The rears will be powered off my stock hu.
> 
> - My hu has a stock external amp. I think the amp is also doing all the eq'ing. The manual says only connect the front left, front right, and sub speaker outputs from the stock wire harness into the ms8's hi level inputs. Would I need to connect the speaker wires after the hu into the ms8's inputs, or the wires after the stock amp into the ms8's inputs? Does it make a difference? Do I have to cut the wires out and connect it to the ms8's input or can I just tap it?
> 
> Thanks!





gumbeelee said:


> No you do not have to run any of your speakers active when using the ms-8 unless you choose to. As far as the internal amp is concerned i am pretty sure, but not completely because i have never used ms-8 hi-level inputs with a stock headunit, i have only used aftermarket hu's. I am almost 100% sure you wire from hu to ms8 then to amp.


If it were me unless you just had to have your rear speakers, i would get rid of the rear speakers and go active.. In my opinion using an ms-8 with a passive set-up is pointless, but that is just me...good luck


----------



## Ryanu

gumbeelee said:


> No you do not have to run any of your speakers active when using the ms-8 unless you choose to. As far as the internal amp is concerned i am pretty sure, but not completely because i have never used ms-8 hi-level inputs with a stock headunit, i have only used aftermarket hu's. I am almost 100% sure you wire from hu to ms8 then to amp.


I think u need to wire hi input signals directly to ms8 bypassing the stock amp else it will be doing double processing. 

Unless u wanna run 3 way front, rears and sub.. u should go active. Else u need to run midrange n tweets passively and put them as close as possible.

Btw.. im running my ms8 passively on 2 way front (after market component) because i do not wanna pull new cable to run active. Powered by ms8 internal amp. I would say it is enough juice for the passive front. 

Cheers!


----------



## gumbeelee

Ryanu said:


> I think u need to wire hi input signals directly to ms8 bypassing the stock amp else it will be doing double processing.
> 
> Unless u wanna run 3 way front, rears and sub.. u should go active. Else u need to run midrange n tweets passively and put them as close as possible.
> 
> Btw.. im running my ms8 passively on 2 way front (after market component) because i do not wanna pull new cable to run active. Powered by ms8 internal amp. I would say it is enough juice for the passive front.
> 
> Cheers!


This is probably correct, like i said i wasn't for sure about the wiring from stock hu with amp..thanx


----------



## Ryanu

BTW, any of the ms-8 users here have actually tried powering a subwoofer from MS-8 internal amp? If yes, what kind of sub did you use and how the result is like? Thanks in advance.


----------



## dengland

Ryanu said:


> BTW, any of the ms-8 users here have actually tried powering a subwoofer from MS-8 internal amp? If yes, what kind of sub did you use and how the result is like? Thanks in advance.


I ran the factory 8" sub of a RAM 1500 truck off of the MS-8 internal amp until last weekend. It was quite passable, much better than I expected. With that said, I am pretty sure the speaker was pretty efficient. I was only using 1 of the 2ohm voice coils. Not too much of a magnet on this one.











Here is the back of the factory enclosure.











Last weekend, I put an external amp between the MS-8 and the speaker in preparation for a 10W3V3 and a custom enclosure that should arrive in a few weeks. The 8" factory definitely sounded better with more juice than the 20W that the MS-8 had for it. But you could get by while saving up for something else.


----------



## Ryanu

dengland said:


> I ran the factory 8" sub of a RAM 1500 truck off of the MS-8 internal amp until last weekend. It was quite passable, much better than I expected. With that said, I am pretty sure the speaker was pretty efficient. I was only using 1 of the 2ohm voice coils. Not too much of a magnet on this one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the back of the factory enclosure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Last weekend, I put an external amp between the MS-8 and the speaker in preparation for a 10W3V3 and a custom enclosure that should arrive in a few weeks. The 8" factory definitely sounded better with more juice than the 20W that the MS-8 had for it. But you could get by while saving up for something else.


Nice... next time will be to look for an high efficiency low rms sub ... main intention for me is to minimize the usage of amp... currently running a 10inch helix with a mono. Not that it doesn't sound good. But wife need the trunk space


----------



## fantasy

gumbeelee said:


> If it were me unless you just had to have your rear speakers, i would get rid of the rear speakers and go active.. In my opinion using an ms-8 with a passive set-up is pointless, but that is just me...good luck





Ryanu said:


> I think u need to wire hi input signals directly to ms8 bypassing the stock amp else it will be doing double processing.
> 
> Unless u wanna run 3 way front, rears and sub.. u should go active. Else u need to run midrange n tweets passively and put them as close as possible.
> 
> Btw.. im running my ms8 passively on 2 way front (after market component) because i do not wanna pull new cable to run active. Powered by ms8 internal amp. I would say it is enough juice for the passive front.
> 
> Cheers!


Okay I've done a bit more research and will go along with you guys' idea of going active. Now I will have to get another amp to power those tweeters since my 4ch amp is only 70x4 and I have to bridge it to power the mids. 

How much power should I be putting into my tweeters? According to Rainbow's site, the CAL 26 tweeters are rated at 120W rms. I think that's just copied over from the whole component's rating and not just for the tweeter itself though. 

Rainbow Audio USA
Rainbow Audio USA

I still haven't figured out if I should wire it after the hu or after the stock amp though.


----------



## Golden Ear

I'm running those same tweets in my Tahoe. I've had them running off of anywhere from 75 watts to now 175 watts from an F6. I like them a lot.


----------



## fantasy

For connecting the ms8's output for 1 sub, is it okay to 2 channels (7&8) or should I use a y-splitter and just use one channel? In the manual, the example is using a mono rca wire.


----------



## dengland

Speaker level outputs are not bridgeable per the manual. You can tell the MS-8 that you have 2 Subs in setup. If you don't have 2 subs and 2 amps, not sure why you would want to do that. If you were trying to use the 2 subs as part of a 3-way active front, you would use 2 channels FL (lo) and FR (lo).

Not sure why you would want to drive the amp with 2 inputs. Usually the amp will sum L & R to produce a mono channel for the sub. So either RCA on the amp will work and you just need the one channel on the output side of the MS-8 since it is producing the mono signal for you.


----------



## tbomb

fantasy said:


> For connecting the ms8's output for 1 sub, is it okay to 2 channels (7&8) or should I use a y-splitter and just use one channel? In the manual, the example is using a mono rca wire.



just use channel 8 and use a splitter for your amp. Your amp might allow for only 1 input. My JBLs do, but if not just use a y-cable. For what its worth, I currently run my front passive and sounds good. If you do it, Just cover the tweeters during the first sweep.

i am going active soon, just havent taken the time to do so. Going passive and keeping rears (sides) with MS8 makes WAY more sense then going active up front but not using rears.


----------



## talan7

Been a while since i was fidgeting with calibrations but I'm about to start up again. How do I access the volumes for the individual channels? Do I need a pc for this? I usually just go by ear but I've recently downloaded a decibel meter and want to be a precise as possible. There are just too many pages on here.


----------



## Valdemar

For the individual channels, I just press left, right, left, right until it takes me there. i hold it for a Mississippi each and switch lol and that will take you to the hidden menu

Not sure if this has been covered yet, but my display no worky. It used to only power on when I held the jack on the processor in a certain position but now i cant even do that. I am stuck in this configuration and not sure how to proceed from here


----------



## SQLnovice

I still can't access the hidden menu, I depress both L&R arrow, but nothing. I'll keep trying.


----------



## swargolet

SQLnovice said:


> I still can't access the hidden menu, I depress both L&R arrow, but nothing. I'll keep trying.


You need to press the left arrow for about a second, let go, and then press the right arrow for about a second. I usually just press left then right back and forth until it goes into the menu. I switch buttons when the screen flashes a little.


----------



## SQLnovice

swargolet said:


> You need to press the left arrow for about a second, let go, and then press the right arrow for about a second. I usually just press left then right back and forth until it goes into the menu. I switch buttons when the screen flashes a little.


Awww, thank a bunch. I knew I was doing something wrong.


----------



## kaigoss69

Make sure you turn the ms8 volume down to about -25 before playing the tones!

After you have exited the hidden menu, allow the processor to reboot before calibrating!


----------



## swargolet

kaigoss69 said:


> Make sure you turn the ms8 volume down to about -25 before playing the tones!
> 
> After you have exited the hidden menu, allow the processor to reboot before calibrating!


And remember that the tones bypass any crossovers that the MS8 set, so if you are running active then make sure to set a crossover on your amp to protect the tweeter.


----------



## SQLnovice

swargolet said:


> And remember that the tones bypass any crossovers that the MS8 set, so if you are running active then make sure to set a crossover on your amp to protect the tweeter.


Thanks guys. Some really good information I got here in the past few weeks. Can't wait to use them.


----------



## fantasy

Does the ms8's high level inputs take balanced signals? I've read around and I don't think it does.

If it doesn't take balanced inputs, I must use the output from my stock amp instead of the output from my stock hu. The thing is, the amp has 4 outputs for the fronts (mids R & L, and tweeters R & L). How would I connect that to the ms8? Would I use 4 channels for the high level inputs on the ms8?

Here is the wiring diagram for my car: http://9thcivic.com/forum/threads/2012-civic-audio-wiring-guide-pinouts-for-factory-radio.5916/


----------



## dengland

fantasy said:


> Does the ms8's high level inputs take balanced signals? I've read around and I don't think it does.
> 
> If it doesn't take balanced inputs, I must use the output from my stock amp instead of the output from my stock hu. The thing is, the amp has 4 outputs for the fronts (mids R & L, and tweeters R & L). How would I connect that to the ms8? Would I use 4 channels for the high level inputs on the ms8?
> 
> Here is the wiring diagram for my car: 2012 Civic Audio Wiring Guide & Pinouts For Factory Radio | 9th Generation Honda Civic Forum


It does. High level inputs are Channel # (+) and Channel # (-)

For my RAM 1500 with Premium Audio, I fed it Front Left and Right Dash and Door (4 pair) to get a complete signal since neither was full range. I took the signal from the factory AMP output not the HU output. The MS8 with the sides and sub output for you.


----------



## fantasy

dengland said:


> It does. High level inputs are Channel # (+) and Channel # (-)
> 
> For my RAM 1500 with Premium Audio, I fed it Front Left and Right Dash and Door (4 pair) to get a complete signal since neither was full range. I took the signal from the factory AMP output not the HU output. The MS8 with the sides and sub output for you.


I'm a bit confused by your response. When you say "it does", what are you referring to? It does take balanced high level inputs?

If so, I wouldn't need to take the outputs after the stock amp. I could just use the outputs from the hu right?


----------



## dengland

fantasy said:


> I'm a bit confused by your response. When you say "it does", what are you referring to? It does take balanced high level inputs?
> 
> If so, I wouldn't need to take the outputs after the stock amp. I could just use the outputs from the hu right?


It does take balanced high level inputs. I am using speaker level outputs of the amplifier to feed the high level input on the MS-8. My HU needs to be at 28 out of 38 for the MS-8 calibration set up to register as loud enough.

If you don't take the signal after your factory amp, it may not be a strong enough signal for the MS-8.


----------



## fantasy

dengland said:


> It does take balanced high level inputs. I am using speaker level outputs of the amplifier to feed the high level input on the MS-8. My HU needs to be at 28 out of 38 for the MS-8 calibration set up to register as loud enough.
> 
> If you don't take the signal after your factory amp, it may not be a strong enough signal for the MS-8.


Oh okay I kinda understand what you're saying now. 

But if I'm taking the outputs after the stock amp, then it wouldn't be a balanced signal anymore, right?

So if I'm taking the outputs after the amp, I would connect all 4 outputs for the fronts (mids R & L, and tweeters R & L) into the ms8 high level inputs?


----------



## t3sn4f2

fantasy said:


> Oh okay I kinda understand what you're saying now.
> 
> But if I'm taking the outputs after the stock amp, then it wouldn't be a balanced signal anymore, right?
> 
> So if I'm taking the outputs after the amp, I would connect all 4 outputs for the fronts (mids R & L, and tweeters R & L) into the ms8 high level inputs?


The ms-8 accepts balanced signals on both the speaker lever and RCA inputs. 




Ganderson said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> A bit late to the MS-8 party but I just purchased one from a forum member and I have a question:
> 
> I have a 2011 Mazdaspeed3 with factory Bose. Right now I am running without the factory Bose amp/processor, using the line level balanced output from the HU.
> 
> With the MS-8 it seems I have 2 options for integrating with my factory HU:
> 
> 1. Solder RCA's onto the L/R OEM HU outputs into the MS-8 line level inputs.
> 
> 2. Reinstall the Bose amp/processor and run from the speaker outputs into the MS-8 hi level inputs.
> 
> Is there a consensus on which method will give the better results?
> 
> I'm inclined to think that the less factory processing for the MS-8 to undo... The better, but I could be wrong.





kaigoss69 said:


> ^^^ definitely use the balanced, unprocessed inputs!





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, this is correct. Solder RCAs onto those wires and connect them to MS-8's RCA (low level) inputs. The speaker level inputs are designed for higher voltage and include some attenuation--that's why they're called "speaker level inputs."
> 
> The difference between a preamp signal and a speaker level signal of the same voltage is current deliver capability. Preamps are designed to drive high impedance inputs (1k ohms, for example) and amplifiers are designed to drive low impedance loads like speakers. the difference is current.



Connect the head unit's balanced outs into the RCA inputs of the ms-8. If the signal level is not enough to meet the ms-8 minimum you can try using the speaker level outs from the oe amp and run them into the speaker level ins of the ms-8. OR you can get a balanced line driver (Rockford, Audio control, etc.) to boost the head unit balanced outputs enough to allow you to use the cleaner head unit balanced output.

The amount of inputs needed are whatever gets you to as near a fullrange signal as possible. For you if going the speaker level route is the low/high like you mentioned. If going balanced out it depends on the headunit, it'll probably just need the front left and rights.


----------



## fantasy

t3sn4f2 said:


> The ms-8 accepts balanced signals on both the speaker lever and RCA inputs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Connect the head unit's balanced outs into the RCA inputs of the ms-8. If the signal level is not enough to meet the ms-8 minimum you can try using the speaker level outs from the oe amp and run them into the speaker level ins of the ms-8. OR you can get a balanced line driver (Rockford, Audio control, etc.) to boost the head unit balanced outputs enough to allow you to use the cleaner head unit balanced output.
> 
> The amount of inputs needed are whatever gets you to as near a fullrange signal as possible. For you if going the speaker level route is the low/high like you mentioned. If going balanced out it depends on the headunit, it'll probably just need the front left and rights.


Okay thanks!

You answered the question that I needed to answer already, but I'm just a bit more curious. 

I'm planning to use the balanced speaker outputs from the hu myself, but why are people soldering RCAs to it and using the RCA inputs on the ms8 instead?

What's the differences between using the balanced speaker output from the hu and using the speaker outputs from a stock amp? Is this statement basically the answer:

"Connect the head unit's balanced outs into the RCA inputs of the ms-8. If the signal level is not enough to meet the ms-8 minimum you can try using the speaker level outs from the oe amp and run them into the speaker level ins of the ms-8. OR you can get a balanced line driver (Rockford, audio control, etc.) to boost the head unit balanced outputs enough to allow you to use the cleaner head unit balanced output.

The amount of inputs needed are whatever gets you to as near a fullrange signal as possible. For you if going the speaker level route is the low/high like you mentioned. If going balanced out it depends on the headunit, it'll probably just need the front left and rights."

Because the signal level is not enough or the amount of inputs needed is not near the fullrange signal?


----------



## Valdemar

Anyone have any input on my dead screen? I'm stuck in this configuration and can't calibrate without the screen. Idk what's wrong it just... won't turn on anymore


----------



## t3sn4f2

fantasy said:


> Okay thanks!
> 
> You answered the question that I needed to answer already, but I'm just a bit more curious.
> 
> I'm planning to use the balanced speaker outputs from the hu myself, but why are people soldering RCAs to it and using the RCA inputs on the ms8 instead?
> 
> What's the differences between using the balanced speaker output from the hu and using the speaker outputs from a stock amp? Is this statement basically the answer:
> 
> "Connect the head unit's balanced outs into the RCA inputs of the ms-8. If the signal level is not enough to meet the ms-8 minimum you can try using the speaker level outs from the oe amp and run them into the speaker level ins of the ms-8. OR you can get a balanced line driver (Rockford, audio control, etc.) to boost the head unit balanced outputs enough to allow you to use the cleaner head unit balanced output.
> 
> The amount of inputs needed are whatever gets you to as near a fullrange signal as possible. For you if going the speaker level route is the low/high like you mentioned. If going balanced out it depends on the headunit, it'll probably just need the front left and rights."
> 
> Because the signal level is not enough or the amount of inputs needed is not near the fullrange signal?


-They us the RCAs because the speaker level inputs are less sensitive by design in order to support the higher voltage. So if you run a "line level" voltage into them then the input stage won't have the required signal level. The RCAs don't have that "padding". 

It's all about comes down to gain matching. Let say your head unit puts out a clean flat full range balanced 2 volt signal at 3/4 volume, and ~3 volts full tilt. In that case it would be a perfect match for the RCA inputs and you would not need to do anything else. But if it were to only put out 1 volt and two volts full tilt AND you had amps that were noisy at higher gain settings, then you might want to add a line driver in order to provide the amps with with a stronger clean ms-8 signal. The MS-8 at minimum only puts out the voltage you put in (ie unity gain). On the other hand if the outputs from the head unit are too strong, like 5 volts at 3/4 volume, then there you might want to go with the speaker level ins so it is padded down and doesn't max out the inputs too earlier in the head units master volume range. It would get too loud too quick IOW. So you have to see what you have first and then decide.

Also if you end up needing a line driver, it is best to mount it up front close to the source output, so that any induce noise from the signal run is not amplified along with the signal. 

-For your second question you'd use the tweeter and woofer outputs because its the only way to get it full range. Signal level aside. But if using the outputs from the head unit, it's likely that they are only front/back full range. So there you just need the left and right front. 

Hope I wasn't to confusing.


----------



## mp3weenie

Looking to integrate an auto tune processor with professor possibly ms-8 previous post in system
Design where I got no input

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/system-design-help-me-choose-equipment-my-car/169427-2004-pacifica-auto-tune-surround-processor.html

I would like to keep the factory dash and audio system. I could install my jvc supporting DVD Audio and DTS which can produce Dolby surround output so the ms8 could attempt to recreate the discrete 5.1 but I am a little Leary of that.

But I guess here is the option for ms8

Not sure if I have to tap off the factory amp outputs

- Get highly efficient speakers and use the ms-8 to power 7 or 5 channels?
- Either use my head unit and Down mix to ms8 aux or use a Mac since I have all of my discrete surround sources also on my Mac and similarly down mix to ms8
- still have options of adding separate amps for more power but seems like a lot of components of I have to tap off factory amp outputs

Or alternate to ms8

- Use a Mac or similar with pass thru digital output of my discrete sources and find a alternate processor that supports surround digital input and give up using my stock hu as a source unless it has six as well
- use my existing hu and convert 5.1 discrete analog to digital io (do they make such a device?) but would have to mess factory dash unless put unconventional glove box
- get to use my existing amps for 5.1

Interested in comment especially possible alternative processors where I can evaluate basef on possible system design and cost etc


----------



## kaigoss69

For those running an active front stage, did you do phase correction BEFORE calibrating? Reason I ask is I am running tweeters, mids and midbass active now, and I am definitely having some phase issues between the tweeters and midranges. I know Andy said to hook everything up ++ and --, but curious if anyone has corrected phase issues prior to the processor attempting to do it with EQ.


----------



## 14642

Kai, how do you know they are phase issues?


----------



## kaigoss69

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Kai, how do you know they are phase issues?



Hi Andy, it just sounds "off" on the left side of the stage. Everything is a bit diffused, and images very close to me, instead of out at the windshield. I haven't had a chance to double check polarities yet, I will do that in a few days. 

Do you think it could be something different?

BTW thanks again for your continued support of this thread. Your input is definitely not expected, but greatly appreciated!


----------



## fantasy

t3sn4f2 said:


> -They us the RCAs because the speaker level inputs are less sensitive by design in order to support the higher voltage. So if you run a "line level" voltage into them then the input stage won't have the required signal level. The RCAs don't have that "padding".
> 
> It's all about comes down to gain matching. Let say your head unit puts out a clean flat full range balanced 2 volt signal at 3/4 volume, and ~3 volts full tilt. In that case it would be a perfect match for the RCA inputs and you would not need to do anything else. But if it were to only put out 1 volt and two volts full tilt AND you had amps that were noisy at higher gain settings, then you might want to add a line driver in order to provide the amps with with a stronger clean ms-8 signal. The MS-8 at minimum only puts out the voltage you put in (ie unity gain). On the other hand if the outputs from the head unit are too strong, like 5 volts at 3/4 volume, then there you might want to go with the speaker level ins so it is padded down and doesn't max out the inputs too earlier in the head units master volume range. It would get too loud too quick IOW. So you have to see what you have first and then decide.
> 
> Also if you end up needing a line driver, it is best to mount it up front close to the source output, so that any induce noise from the signal run is not amplified along with the signal.
> 
> -For your second question you'd use the tweeter and woofer outputs because its the only way to get it full range. Signal level aside. But if using the outputs from the head unit, it's likely that they are only front/back full range. So there you just need the left and right front.
> 
> Hope I wasn't to confusing.


I had to read it a few times lol. I think I got the meat of it though. 

I've around and I think I know how to set the gains for the calibration already. The last question I have is what do I do with the filters on the amps? I will be running active and will have 3 amps total. 1 for the mids, 1 for the tweeters, and the last one for the sub. 

Do I turn the filters off on my 2 amps and let them run full range? In the case of my sub's amp, there's no full range option, so I would turn the lpf's xover all the way up?


----------



## dengland

I am running a 2-way front (door and dash), 1 way center, 1 way sides and sub with the stock HU. I had some challenges trying to decide if the information on the factory wiring was correct. I checked all 8 speakers relative to each other. I found one mistake that I made and one mistake in the wiring documentation. 

I used the audio from this as a source since I was dealing with speakers that went down below 100Hz. 






I got a better calibration correcting the phase rather than letting the MS-8 try and fix it. I recognize this probably is useless at the frequencies you are dealing with but perhaps someone will find it useful in the future.


(I really need to post a build thread on here to point back to it..)


----------



## t3sn4f2

fantasy said:


> I had to read it a few times lol. I think I got the meat of it though.
> 
> I've around and I think I know how to set the gains for the calibration already. The last question I have is what do I do with the filters on the amps? I will be running active and will have 3 amps total. 1 for the mids, 1 for the tweeters, and the last one for the sub.
> 
> Do I turn the filters off on my 2 amps and let them run full range? In the case of my sub's amp, there's no full range option, so I would turn the lpf's xover all the way up?


Yes, turn off all the filtering/processing on the amps and move the sub amp crossover to its highest setting.

Also, if available and you want to add a measure of protection to the tweeters, leave the tweeter crossover active and turn it down all the way so it doesn't affect the tweeter's passband. That'll protect the tweeter from things like ms-8/amp failures and accidental ms-8 crossover settings. It won't affect the sound, assuming the amp doesn't have a poor noisy crossover.


----------



## tbomb

dengland said:


> I am running a 2-way front (door and dash), 1 way center, 1 way sides and sub with the stock HU. I had some challenges trying to decide if the information on the factory wiring was correct. I checked all 8 speakers relative to each other. I found one mistake that I made and one mistake in the wiring documentation.
> 
> I used the audio from this as a source since I was dealing with speakers that went down below 100Hz.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I got a better calibration correcting the phase rather than letting the MS-8 try and fix it. I recognize this probably is useless at the frequencies you are dealing with but perhaps someone will find it useful in the future.
> 
> 
> (I really need to post a build thread on here to point back to it..)


MS8 does not/can not correct for phase. You must make sure everything is correct prior to calibration.


----------



## fantasy

t3sn4f2 said:


> Yes, turn off all the filtering/processing on the amps and move the sub amp crossover to its highest setting.
> 
> Also, if available and you want to add a measure of protection to the tweeters, leave the tweeter crossover active and turn it down all the way so it doesn't affect the tweeter's passband. That'll protect the tweeter from things like ms-8/amp failures and accidental ms-8 crossover settings. It won't affect the sound, assuming the amp doesn't have a poor noisy crossover.


So you're saying on the amp that's powering my tweeters, I should leave the hpf setting on, with the highest frequency being selected (400 Hz)? I don't get what you mean by "turn it down all the way". I'm bridging the channels on this amp to power my tweeters: http://support.alpine-usa.com/products/documents/OM_MRP-F300.PDF

On the amp that's pouring my mids, just leave it on full range. 

Also, all of these settings should be like this before any calibration, and left as is even after everything is done right?


----------



## tbomb

Woah woah woah......what tweeters are you running that you feel you need to bridge this amp? for that matter, what is the rest of the setup


----------



## fantasy

tbomb said:


> Woah woah woah......what tweeters are you running that you feel you need to bridge this amp? for that matter, what is the rest of the setup


I'm using a Rainbow Profi component set, so tweeters will be the CAL 26 that came with it. 

http://www.rainbowcaraudio.com/cal26silk-vof.html

I asked around to see how much power people were giving to their tweeters when they ran active and was told 50 - 70W was fine. Since that amp is rated 50 x 4, I just decided to bridge the channels.

I was gonna sell the amp that I was gonna use for my mids and get a bigger 4 channel amp to power both the mids and the tweeters, but I saw this amp for a good price local. Plus, it matched the other Alpine amp I had too lol. 

So is that too much power for those tweeters?

As for the rest of the setup:

Mids will be the Profis, powered by an Alpine MRP-F450. Will be bridged also.

Sub is a 12" IDQ D4 v4, powered by a Kicker zx750.1

Rears will left stock, powered by the MS8


----------



## t3sn4f2

fantasy said:


> So you're saying on the amp that's powering my tweeters, I should leave the hpf setting on, with the highest frequency being selected (400 Hz)? I don't get what you mean by "turn it down all the way". I'm bridging the channels on this amp to power my tweeters: http://support.alpine-usa.com/products/documents/OM_MRP-F300.PDF
> 
> On the amp that's pouring my mids, just leave it on full range.
> 
> Also, all of these settings should be like this before any calibration, and left as is even after everything is done right?


I should have said turn the dial down well out of the tweeters passband. For your amp, anywhere between 50Hz and 400Hz will do. Though it _might_ be better to put it at 400Hz. That way it covers a greater range (in DC-400Hz)and protects from anything weird happening in the 50 and 400Hz range.


----------



## kaigoss69

If you have the channels available I think bridging is better since it should increase you S/N ratio. In the end it is difficult to overpower them, as long as you set the levels correctly.


----------



## t3sn4f2

fantasy said:


> I'm using a Rainbow Profi component set, so tweeters will be the CAL 26 that came with it.
> 
> Rainbow Audio USA
> 
> I asked around to see how much power people were giving to their tweeters when they ran active and was told 50 - 70W was fine. Since that amp is rated 50 x 4, I just decided to bridge the channels.
> 
> I was gonna sell the amp that I was gonna use for my mids and get a bigger 4 channel amp to power both the mids and the tweeters, but I saw this amp for a good price local. Plus, it matched the other Alpine amp I had too lol.
> 
> So is that too much power for those tweeters?
> 
> As for the rest of the setup:
> 
> Mids will be the Profis, powered by an Alpine MRP-F450. Will be bridged also.
> 
> Sub is a 12" IDQ D4 v4, powered by a Kicker zx750.1
> 
> Rears will left stock, powered by the MS8


I'd bridge it. That amp is unregulated so it puts out about 25% less wattage with the engine off. Plus about that amount less when you take the THD measurement in the .0x% range that we see high end amps measured at, instead of the 1% stated in the manual. And who knows if they even measured power while driving all channels instead of just one, which would further artificially inflate the power rating. 

To add to that, you are putting 4 times the power into the mids, instead of the same amount. That is going to push the tweeter's output even higher.

But since you have the amp already, try it first and see.


----------



## Mark the Bold

I will be doing an install with an MS-8 on a Fujitsu Ten (Eclipse) factory headunit. Subaru Outback 2014 with the "Premium" factory HK audio system.

The only quirk is that the high level outputs from the HU are 10k ohms impedance.

Can I use high level outputs at this impedance on the MS-8 high level input for calibration? I would rather not use the outputs after the factory HK amp because the HK amp does all kind of EQ'ing that IMHO opinion makes the system sound garbage...

Anybody use high level inputs for the HK with this impedance level?? Can't find anything on the MS-8 website. Appreciate the help. Want to ensure I get the right harnesses as I have a small install time window......

EDIT: Dumb question, but isn't 10k ohm impedance the same as low level RCA signals anyway?


----------



## fantasy

My factory hu does have a sub output, but I was wondering is it necessary for the ms8 to see a sub input? Can I get away with just using the 2 fronts' high level inputs if I'm not using the stock sub? I will have an aftermarket sub and amp to power it. 

Reason is that I've ran out of wire for the sub inputs lol. I like for my stuff to match, so I would have to order it and wait a few days.


----------



## Golden Ear

Just the front outputs of your hu will suffice as long as they are full range. Most of them are.


----------



## fantasy

Golden Ear said:


> Just the front outputs of your hu will suffice as long as they are full range. Most of them are.


How would I figure out if they're full range signals or not? Lol I guess just try it and see if it sounds good?

Here's the diagram of what I'm working with: http://9thcivic.com/forum/threads/2012-civic-audio-wiring-guide-pinouts-for-factory-radio.5916/


----------



## t3sn4f2

fantasy said:


> How would I figure out if they're full range signals or not? Lol I guess just try it and see if it sounds good?
> 
> Here's the diagram of what I'm working with: 2012 Civic Audio Wiring Guide & Pinouts For Factory Radio | 9th Generation Honda Civic Forum


The MS-8 will tell you if they are. Side note, if you are going to end up using a line driver because the head unit's outputs are not strong enough, then make sure you set the line drivers gains so that you can raise the head units volume high enough so that any upper range processing comes into play. This way ms-8 will fix the response at that point. And then when you lower the volume and the response goes back to a normal shape, it will only then act as a loudness contour (for lower listening levels).


----------



## 14642

Mark the Bold,
When you say "High level outputs" do you mean the preamp outputs from the radio? Typically "High level" refers to speaker outputs. 10k sounds like preamp level to me. That should work OK with MS-8's line level inputs (RCA).


----------



## dallasneon

I love that Andy is still providing product support for the MS8. Awesome!


----------



## Mark the Bold

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Mark the Bold,
> When you say "High level outputs" do you mean the preamp outputs from the radio? Typically "High level" refers to speaker outputs. 10k sounds like preamp level to me. That should work OK with MS-8's line level inputs (RCA).


Thanks Andy. Appreciate the help over the years. But I am more confused than ever because the Subaru audio expert gave me the following answer:



> Despite the 10k ohm impedance , the outputs are definitely amplified. For that reason, I have little doubt that you'll need to use the MS-8's speaker Hi Level Inputs. Your OEM HU's impedance should not matter, since the MS-8 won't look like speakers to your HU.


From your experience at Harman Kardon, would you guys ever design a premium amplifier for a major car manufacturer that would accept a high level speaker input signal? Or would it be line level? 

My thinking would be the latter because they are designing the stereo from scratch for a car so why not use a line level signal between the dash HU and the amp under the seat. I attached the cut sheets from the car manufacturer in case it helps diagnose.

But the email makes me think it is a high level, although the high imp gives me pause. I will check all this with a multimeter, but I want to make sure I will not damage the MS-8 by connecting a high level input to a low level input? Anything I should check with a multimeter. For line level the voltage should be between 0.2 and 4v right?

EDIT: It has to be line level right? Because why else would they include a shield line for high level? Is the HK amp accepting a balanced input signal?

DOUBLE EDIT: If it is high level, is getting just the front two L-R signals full range good enough? Or do you recommend grabbing the fronts and rears even though I will be using the MS-8 for all "positioning" of the sound via Logic 7? I've read on this thread that just a full range front is all I need, but I did not see it anywhere on your Andy FAQ greatest quote thread.


----------



## 14642

The difference between a pre-amp signal and a speaker level signal is current delivery. A pre-amp signal may be 4V, 9V, 1V, 500mV, but it won't deliver enough current to drive a speaker. 

The current CAPABILITY has nothing to do with integrating a processor into your car because the input IMPEDANCE of the processor is what tells the radio to deliver current.

OEM systems may include speaker-capable outputs in the radio that drive the OEM amplifier so that the car maker doesn't have to use a different radio for the basic audio system (without the amp). IN that scenario, sometimes removing the data connection to the factory amplifier changes the software in the radio to remap the volume control. I don't know if that's the case in this car.

This should be relatively straightforward with MS-8. If you will use the signal that cones from the radio, connect it to the Line Level (RCA) inputs of MS-8. You only need the front outputs.


----------



## Mark the Bold

Got it. As a test, I will hook up a speaker to the wires coming from a front channel from the radio. If it drives it sufficiently, I will use the high level. If not I will use the low level. I found a spec sheet on the Eclipse website and it appears this headunit is sold in Australia and it does output 4x15w. This does seem to match the subaru audio guys comments and wiring diagram.

AVN827GA | Navigation | Products | ECLIPSE | Fujitsu Ten


----------



## vinnny

dengland said:


> It does. High level inputs are Channel # (+) and Channel # (-)
> 
> For my RAM 1500 with Premium Audio, I fed it Front Left and Right Dash and Door (4 pair) to get a complete signal since neither was full range. I took the signal from the factory AMP output not the HU output. The MS8 with the sides and sub output for you.


Just to clarify, you fed it left dash, right dash, left front door and right front door to get a full-range signal? No sub, rear doors or roof?

What did you do in the HU? Defeat "surround", level EQs and faders?


----------



## dengland

vinnny said:


> Just to clarify, you fed it left dash, right dash, left front door and right front door to get a full-range signal? No sub, rear doors or roof?
> 
> What did you do in the HU? Defeat "surround", level EQs and faders?


Exactly correct. In the HU I made sure Surround was off.EQ was flat. Balance/Fader centered.

Last 2 posts in my signature thread will show you the bottom end I got.


----------



## Duckstu

Hi all.

I just finished building a new system. I used the MS-8 in my previous vehicle,.. and moved it into this one.

Front tweeters are Seas 1" fabric domes
Center is a Seas 4.75" unit that has a similar 1" fabric dome tweeter in the center of it. No co-axial,.. more like the Uni-Q drivers Kef does where the tweet is where the magnet pole piece would be.
Ft doors are 6.5" Bostons. 
Rear doors are stock.
12" Infinity Kappa Perfect sub

Front stage is powered by a McIntosh MC420, sending 50 watts to each of the tweeters in the A-Pillars. 
The other 2 channels from that amp are bridged to 100 watts to power the center.

A McIntosh MCC-404M sends 100 watts to each of the four 6.5" door mid-bass drivers.

JL Audio 500/1 powers the sub.










With the covers on. (I removed the 40% side of the third row seat to house the sub , processor and JL amp. The other two amps go in a factory storage compartment.










*Questions.*
I am finding that I can't decide if I like it better with the Logic 7 active,.. or off. More focused with it on,... but smaller sound stage.

2. It sounds WAY better with the processing defeated. Entire sections of instruments in a symphony seem to disappear with it on.

What gets defeated when you defeat the processing? Everything? Or just some of the below?

1. auto-Equalization
2. Graphic EQ
3. time-alignment
4. phase correction
5. center-channel creation
6. crossovers


The crossovers still seem to work, and it still seems to send a signal to the center channel. I presume it is no longer "steering",.. but just summing a left and right?
.


----------



## 14642

Processing defeat turns off the EQ and time alignment.


----------



## Duckstu

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Processing defeat turns off the EQ and time alignment.


Thanks much.

So it still creates a center channel? In the same elaborate way as with Logic-7? or in a simpler way if I also have that turned off?

Crossovers are still on,.. and being digital there isn't any phase-shift at the crossover points correct?

Auto EQ off, but graphic EQ still active?

I'm sure I got better results in the last vehicle,... not sure what if anything I'm doing wrong this time. Activating the processing seems to mush all the instruments together,.. so the notes are still there,.. but you can;t tell the difference between the instruments. I'll work on it a lot more for sure.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Duckstu said:


> Thanks much.
> 
> So it still creates a center channel? In the same elaborate way as with Logic-7? or in a simpler way if I also have that turned off?
> 
> Crossovers are still on,.. and being digital there isn't any phase-shift at the crossover points correct?
> 
> Auto EQ off, but graphic EQ still active?
> 
> I'm sure I got better results in the last vehicle,... not sure what if anything I'm doing wrong this time. Activating the processing seems to mush all the instruments together,.. so the notes are still there,.. but you can;t tell the difference between the instruments. I'll work on it a lot more for sure.


I saw your build thread. Have you tried calibrating from the AUX input using an ipod or something. Maybe it's your particular OE headunit that the ms-8 is having trouble with. 

Also I'd raise the center highpass to somewhere in the high hundred. 130Hz seems a bit low for that size driver. The OE dash mounting also limits the low end response since they are not as sealed around the driver as a true baffle would be.


----------



## Duckstu

t3sn4f2 said:


> I saw your build thread. Have you tried calibrating from the AUX input using an ipod or something. Maybe it's your particular OE headunit that the ms-8 is having trouble with.
> 
> Also I'd raise the center highpass to somewhere in the high hundred. 130Hz seems a bit low for that size driver. The OE dash mounting also limits the low end response since they are not as sealed around the driver as a true baffle would be.


Great, thanks.

The head-unit isn't OE,.. it's a Pioneer AVIC X940BT,.... some sort of fancy navigation hot-mess that the person who leased the car initially had installed. I'm using RCA's from the ft channel and going into input jacks 1 + 2.

It has an XM module,.. but I disconnected it. It also has an IPOD control setup,....

I tune it using pink noise from a CD,... and an 80 second-long sine sweep by Brüel & Kjær 

I used this unit in the last car using a vastly better head unit (an Eclipse CD7000),... but am not sure if I'm going to toss this nav thing and install a clarion DRZ9255,.. McIntosh MX406,... Eclipse CD7200 or Alpine F1 status,... or just leave it as it is.


I think I had set the center channel crossover at 120 hz,... but listening to it today it seems to want to be a little higher. I'll try 150 or so.

I still don't know how to set the amp gains. I've tried setting them at 2v on the last amps with no success,.. and many amps don't show them as a voltages. I wish that when you're doing the channel test (pink noise) in the calibration phase that it would be at a fixed volume,... and that it would do every channel independently,... and then you could set every channel to 70 db or whatever with a db meter set to a or c weighted. Would be nice to know you're close for the initial calibration runs.

I am running the front L and R as 2-ways,... and it runs the tweet and mid together. Not a huge deal as I can unplug the RCA for each driver one at a time,... but I don't know where the MS expects everything to be volume-wise.

I'll work at it some more. I remember that with the last vehicle I had to work on it for a few weeks,.. and run the cal 20+ times.

.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Duckstu said:


> Great, thanks.
> 
> The head-unit isn't OE,.. it's a Pioneer AVIC X940BT,.... some sort of fancy navigation hot-mess that the person who leased the car initially had installed. I'm using RCA's from the ft channel and going into input jacks 1 + 2.
> 
> It has an XM module,.. but I disconnected it. It also has an IPOD control setup,....
> 
> I tune it using pink noise from a CD,... and an 80 second-long sine sweep by Brüel & Kjær
> 
> I used this unit in the last car using a vastly better head unit (an Eclipse CD7000),... but am not sure if I'm going to toss this nav thing and install a clarion DRZ9255,.. McIntosh MX406,... Eclipse CD7200 or Alpine F1 status,... or just leave it as it is.
> 
> 
> I think I had set the center channel crossover at 120 hz,... but listening to it today it seems to want to be a little higher. I'll try 150 or so.
> 
> I still don't know how to set the amp gains. I've tried setting them at 2v on the last amps with no success,.. and many amps don't show them as a voltages. I wish that when you're doing the channel test (pink noise) in the calibration phase that it would be at a fixed volume,... and that it would do every channel independently,... and then you could set every channel to 70 db or whatever with a db meter set to a or c weighted. Would be nice to know you're close for the initial calibration runs.
> 
> I am running the front L and R as 2-ways,... and it runs the tweet and mid together. Not a huge deal as I can unplug the RCA for each driver one at a time,... but I don't know where the MS expects everything to be volume-wise.
> 
> I'll work at it some more. I remember that with the last vehicle I had to work on it for a few weeks,.. and run the cal 20+ times.
> 
> .


Ah my bad, I got your username confused with someone else's:blush:.


----------



## Duckstu

What are people's opinions on using a center channel?

I have tried them a few times in cars with mixed results.

In my sedan I have a small center driven by a 50 watt x 5 Alpine home theater (for the car) processor / amp. There's a setting called "Center channel width",.. that adjusts the amount of signal removed from the sides and sent to the center. So basically you can go from stereo to mostly center in steps,.. and stop where it sound right to you. I have it set perhaps 1/2 way.

I find that while a center may be technically more accurate or whatever,.. it seems to make the sound very small,... sort of like it's all coming from one 6x9 in the dash. Instead of very wide,.. like you're immersed in it.

I'm not sure what the Logic-7 does when you change the center level in "System levels":,... but I presume it is just changing volume?... and not the amount of material extracted from the L & R to use in the center?

FYI,... I am running the center as a 1-way,.. because I ran out of channels in the MS-8. The driver is a 4.75" roughly Seas with the tweeter down where the voice-coil dust cover would be. 
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/coaxial/seas-prestige-l12re/xfc-h1602-5-alum/fabric-coaxial/

Here's a pic of it going in with it's crossover yet to be tucked away.










And installed.


----------



## Lanson

Here's my Center



















Here's the front stage, including the pillars which are also two-way, same line of drivers (Dayton RS)









Crossover points were chosen to minimize beaming issues, and the MS-8 handles this setup with absolute grace. 

By far, this is the best staging I've ever had. 





Duckstu said:


> What are people's opinions on using a center channel?
> 
> I have tried them a few times in cars with mixed results.
> 
> In my sedan I have a small center driven by a 50 watt x 5 Alpine home theater (for the car) processor / amp. There's a setting called "Center channel width",.. that adjusts the amount of signal removed from the sides and sent to the center. So basically you can go from stereo to mostly center in steps,.. and stop where it sound right to you. I have it set perhaps 1/2 way.
> 
> I find that while a center may be technically more accurate or whatever,.. it seems to make the sound very small,... sort of like it's all coming from one 6x9 in the dash. Instead of very wide,.. like you're immersed in it.
> 
> I'm not sure what the Logic-7 does when you change the center level in "System levels":,... but I presume it is just changing volume?... and not the amount of material extracted from the L & R to use in the center?
> 
> FYI,... I am running the center as a 1-way,.. because I ran out of channels in the MS-8. The driver is a 4.75" roughly Seas with the tweeter down where the voice-coil dust cover would be.
> https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/coaxial/seas-prestige-l12re/xfc-h1602-5-alum/fabric-coaxial/
> 
> Here's a pic of it going in with it's crossover yet to be tucked away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And installed.


----------



## Duckstu

fourthmeal said:


> Here's my Center
> 
> 
> Here's the front stage, including the pillars which are also two-way, same line of drivers (Dayton RS)
> 
> Crossover points were chosen to minimize beaming issues, and the MS-8 handles this setup with absolute grace.
> 
> By far, this is the best staging I've ever had.


*
Beautiful.*

Beaming occurs at what frequencies?
And what crossover points did you use if I might ask?

I'm running the center at 150hz and up at the moment. I may raise it to 200 having looked at the response graph again.

I just have 1" tweeters in my A-Pillars. (Wasn't able to invest the time into doing what you did. I had bought a pair of the RAM-3's that are spoken of here,.. but never installed the). They are Seas tweeters, much like what is in the middle of my center channel.

And I have 6.5" mid-bass in the doors,... so I'm using 5 channels for the ft stage,.. leaving 2 for the rear door mid-bass units,.. and one for sub.

I have been searching like mad and found some other things to try.

Kaigoss has been a huge help. I'd like to fly him in for a day LOL.

His suggestion to adjust the gains with the white noise levels of the mids 4 db hotter than the tweets,... and the sub even hotter yet makes a lot of sense. I'll try that when I get home tonight.

And his strong suggestion to unplug the mic before selecting "done" at the end of the calibration is something I hadn't read before.

I dearly wish these tips were listed as links in the first post. I strongly suspect this thread would be 60 pages long instead of 410 if they were.


----------



## kaigoss69

^^^ Michigan? No way dude!


----------



## tbomb

MS8 doesnt take anything from L and R.....it sends MONO info to the center


----------



## Duckstu

tbomb said:


> MS8 doesnt take anything from L and R.....it sends MONO info to the center



Are you sure?

Seems that it wouldn't just be doubling up on the mono parts of the signal,.. but would be removing the parts of the music that are identical in both the left and right channels, and playing that thorough the center. Then playing the parts that are unique to the left and right channels through your left and right doors. 

From what Andy wrote about Logic 7 "steering",... it seemed like it did that and more. Not sure how the steering worked exactly.
.


----------



## t3sn4f2

^^^^



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> OK, now that my butt has recovered from 15 hours in the same chair yesterday, here goes.
> 
> Every few milliseconds, Logic 7 computes a steering angle by determining a couple of things about the stereo signal. Left, right and center steering is determined by level differences between left and right signals. Mono information--the information that's common to left and right--is steered to the center. Don't confuse mono as L+R for what's actually going on here. Although this isn't how it's done, you could think of the mono info as (L+R)-lL-Rl. It's all of the sound minus the sound that appears only in the left or the right. That mono information is also attenuated in the left and the right. The amount of that information that appears in left and right is an important part of making this thing sound great in cars. If the information is completely removed from left and right, then I don't think it works very well in cars. The images are spot on, but they're really small and don't sound believable, to me. If the mono information isn't attenuated at all, then the stage is narrowed a bit and the images are big and kind of nebulous. Left of center and right of center aren't very accurate. Attenuating the mono signal in left and right by 6dB works great and that's what MS-8's L7 does.
> 
> The front-to-rear steering angle is computed by determining the phase relationship between left and right. -180 degrees steers to the rear. -90 degrees steers about halfway between front and rear. The level differences between left and right determine rear left and right steering.
> 
> Finally, when information is steered front, one of the rear and side channels is polarity-swapped. This helps to anchor front steered sounds in the front, and that's why sides and rears shouldn't make a bunch of midbass. That out-of-phase condition in the back works for imaging, but not for midbass. Fortunately, we all want the midbass to sound like it comes from the front, so it's just easier to make sure that it does.
> 
> Side and rear are also delayed by several milliseconds, but rear is delayed more.
> 
> Very low frequencies are not steered. They're simple stereo.
> 
> Here's a set of drawings that sort of illustrates this. The first one illustrates what you can expect from a L+R center.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here's a simplification of what happens with L7:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, when you implement this in a car, here are some pointers:
> 
> 1. Sides and rears don't have to make bass. I use a 3" and a tweeter in the back and a 6" component system in the sides, but they're crossed over at 100Hz, 4th order. The 6" speakers in the sides are overkill, but that's what fit in the doors.
> 
> 2. It's helpful if the side and rear tweeters are at about ear level. Don't mount them in the bottom of the doors.
> 
> 3. If you won't put 4 speakers in the back and you'll use only 2 instead, MS-8 will process them as sides. That's no problem and the difference between 5.1 and 7.1 is really hard to hear. It's nice to have rears and sides if you'll have rear seat passengers. Logic 7 in OE systems mixes some front-steered information into the sides, so the rear seat passengers have their own stage at the back of the front seats. Making those adjustments is car and speaker-location dependent and it's seriously difficult to do without screwing everything else up. MS-8 will provide a single stage, located at or in front of the dashboard for all seating positions. I prefer that and it happens automatically and easily when the front seats are right.
> 
> 4. Front steering works perfectly for all frequencies that the center channel will play and pathlengths don't matter much. For midbass frequencies that the left and right will play but the center channel won't, pathlengths are critical. A phantom center has to be generated for those sounds. If your center channel is a 3" and you have big-ass 8" speakers for right and left mounted in your doors, there's gonna be trouble.
> 
> 5. The subwoofer level control in MS-8 isn't a level control for the subwoofer output channels. It's a shelving filter that boosts bass in ALL channels below 60Hz, but never above 160 Hz. When you boost or cut, the slope of the filter is adjusted. This helps to maintain the illusion of bass up front by sending the appropriate amount of midbass to the front speakers and bass to the subwoofers. It also maintains the crossover point. Here are a couple of graphs that illustrate this and why it's better.
> 
> The first one is a conventional control. It's pretty obvious why this moves the image of the bass to the back and sounds boomy. There's too much interaction between sub and midbass. This is why people claim that "underlapping" the bass is important and why so many people try to get big-assed midbass drivers in the front of the car and cross the sub at 50Hz. With MS-8, that's totally unnecessary, and the evidence of that is in the second graph.
> 
> I use a pair of 6" speakers driven by about 40 watts in the doors, another one in the center channel and a 500 watt amp on a pair of cheesy 10" woofers in an IB in the rear deck. The bass is seriously anchored to the front and the midbass is great. No hassles, no constant tweaking and I can boost bass by as much as 10dB on top of the target curve (which is a total of about 20dB) without the image shifting to the rear. I think my crossover point is about 80Hz, 4th order.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, this feature is also included in the MS-Amps using a wireless rotary control that can be paired to any number of bass and full range amps in the system.
> 
> So, for front right left and center, you'd be better off with three 5" speakers (R,L, and C) than with 8s in the doors and a 3 in the center. If all you can get in the center is a 3", then try to move the midbass to the kick panels. If you can't do either, the car will still sound great, but the image for center-steered midbass sounds will be larger than it should be and will be biased a little bit to the side on which you sit. Not such a big deal.


----------



## 14642

Duckstu said:


> Great, thanks.
> 
> The head-unit isn't OE,.. it's a Pioneer AVIC X940BT,.... some sort of fancy navigation hot-mess that the person who leased the car initially had installed. I'm using RCA's from the ft channel and going into input jacks 1 + 2.
> 
> It has an XM module,.. but I disconnected it. It also has an IPOD control setup,....
> 
> I tune it using pink noise from a CD,... and an 80 second-long sine sweep by Brüel & Kjær
> 
> I used this unit in the last car using a vastly better head unit (an Eclipse CD7000),... but am not sure if I'm going to toss this nav thing and install a clarion DRZ9255,.. McIntosh MX406,... Eclipse CD7200 or Alpine F1 status,... or just leave it as it is.
> 
> 
> I think I had set the center channel crossover at 120 hz,... but listening to it today it seems to want to be a little higher. I'll try 150 or so.
> 
> I still don't know how to set the amp gains. I've tried setting them at 2v on the last amps with no success,.. and many amps don't show them as a voltages. I wish that when you're doing the channel test (pink noise) in the calibration phase that it would be at a fixed volume,... and that it would do every channel independently,... and then you could set every channel to 70 db or whatever with a db meter set to a or c weighted. Would be nice to know you're close for the initial calibration runs.
> 
> I am running the front L and R as 2-ways,... and it runs the tweet and mid together. Not a huge deal as I can unplug the RCA for each driver one at a time,... but I don't know where the MS expects everything to be volume-wise.
> 
> I'll work at it some more. I remember that with the last vehicle I had to work on it for a few weeks,.. and run the cal 20+ times.
> 
> .


IF your front speakers are coaxials that are driven with 2 channels of an amplifier, they are 1-Way. 

Also, be careful about the center channel high pass filter. If you cross it over at 100Hz, for example, and your speaker can't play 100Hz, then you lose the information between the crossover and where your speaker actually plays. For a small 3" speaker, choose something like 200Hz.


----------



## Lanson

This thread covers beaming in fairly simple terms
Hawthorne Audio • View topic - How to calculate driver beaming frequency.
And this is the wavelength calculator inside
Wavelength

But to answer your question, I chose a 5200hz target for my pillars (2" RS75's and ND20FB), and the same frequency for my center (4.5" RS125 and ND20FB), 2nd order crossover, and target filter was Bessel due to better phase performance ( Filter Topology - Chebyshev, Butterworth, and Bessel | Electronics and Electrical Quizzes | EEWeb Community )

At this frequency for a crossover and with the tweeter and mid as close together as possible (hence the use of the "FB" aka rear mount tweeter), things stay pretty cohesive throughout the frequency range. If I were to do it again, I'd run a slightly larger mid in the tweeters (probably RS100's), and I'd toe the drivers toward me more to reduce the reflections from the windshield. That said, it still sounds great and my driving sight-lines are still completely like factory, which is a very important thing for safety in this car which has some awkward sight-lines sometimes.

The MS-8 settings follow Andy W.'s advice as closely as possible. My center, though it will play lower, is crossed at around 90hz 4th order, and my rears are around 110 hz 4th order, though they can play lower just fine. I find that this keeps the bass anchored up front. 



Duckstu said:


> *
> Beautiful.*
> 
> Beaming occurs at what frequencies?
> And what crossover points did you use if I might ask?
> 
> I'm running the center at 150hz and up at the moment. I may raise it to 200 having looked at the response graph again.
> 
> I just have 1" tweeters in my A-Pillars. (Wasn't able to invest the time into doing what you did. I had bought a pair of the RAM-3's that are spoken of here,.. but never installed the). They are Seas tweeters, much like what is in the middle of my center channel.
> 
> And I have 6.5" mid-bass in the doors,... so I'm using 5 channels for the ft stage,.. leaving 2 for the rear door mid-bass units,.. and one for sub.
> 
> I have been searching like mad and found some other things to try.
> 
> Kaigoss has been a huge help. I'd like to fly him in for a day LOL.
> 
> His suggestion to adjust the gains with the white noise levels of the mids 4 db hotter than the tweets,... and the sub even hotter yet makes a lot of sense. I'll try that when I get home tonight.
> 
> And his strong suggestion to unplug the mic before selecting "done" at the end of the calibration is something I hadn't read before.
> 
> I dearly wish these tips were listed as links in the first post. I strongly suspect this thread would be 60 pages long instead of 410 if they were.


----------



## Duckstu

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> IF your front speakers are coaxials that are driven with 2 channels of an amplifier, they are 1-Way.
> 
> Also, be careful about the center channel high pass filter. If you cross it over at 100Hz, for example, and your speaker can't play 100Hz, then you lose the information between the crossover and where your speaker actually plays. For a small 3" speaker, choose something like 200Hz.




Thanks Andy.

I know you're too busy to support this anymore,.. but probably can't help but peek in there every so often. So I really appreciate when you are able to chime in with some advice.

*Fronts* are true separates.
1" Seas tweeters in the A-pillars with Axeon metalized-poly caps to protect them below about 2,000 hz. Using channels 1+2 on the MS-8,.. Crossed at 2,500hz, 18db

Mid-bass drivers are 6.5" Boston Acoustics in the bottom of the doors. So I'm running the fronts as 2-way, using channels 3+4 for the 6.5's. The bottom of those are crossed at 80hz, 18 db

*Rear* doors (stock 7" dual-cone for now) processed as sides, using Channels 5 + 6. Crossed at 100 hz, 18 db

*
Center* is a 4.75" Seas coaxial (Uni-Q actually) with a custom passive crossover, so it's running as 1-way, using channel 7 According to the response curve on Madisound's website,.. it starts falling off below 140 hz or so. I have it crossed at 190 or 200,... 18 db.

Single 12" sub on channel 8.


After doing the things in the Kaigoss post it sounds a TON better. It still has more detail and openness with the processing defeated,... but the staging is a lot more open,.. and there is a lot more mid-bass.

I have the gains on the amp that drives the four 6.5" door mid-bass drivers cranked all the way up. Even still I was only able to get the fronts to 78db (1 db shy of what Kaigoss suggested with the system volume set at -25) Amp is a 100w x 4 McIntosh. Rears aren't even close. Perhaps low 70's. They won;t take much power and aren't very efficient (or are high impedance,.. not sure)

No problems with the tweeters, center or sub. The gains on those were all in the middle of their range on their respective amps.


*Question*
I will likely replace the rear door speakers with another set of 6.5" Bostons (I have a lot of them). I have the mid-bass drivers from a set of separates,... and also a set of their better co-axials. Should I run co-axials back there? I have no idea if it matters as they are low on the doors,... and my ears won't be able to pick up much of the high-end anyway.


----------



## t3sn4f2

^Not to speak for Andy but I'd definitely go with Coaxes in that location. The tweeter is going to help greatly being that you are going to be very off axis to the speaker. It should extend the effective off axis response into the 10kHz range which would be the minimum recommended for the rears. 

Maybe that is the cause of your problems. Assuming what you mean by "dual cone woofer" is just a full range whizzer cone driver.


----------



## 14642

Yes, coaxials in the back.


----------



## 14642

In response to Fourthmeal's post about crossovers, choosing an electrical alignment is not an assurance of phase coherency, or even frequency response summing, for that matter.

Crossovers, whether they are passive or active are designed to alter the response of the SPEAKER to fit some alignment. So, if you used an RTA or some other method of measuring the frequency response of the driver and then adjusted your crossover and EQ so that the measured response of mid and the tweeter matched that of the HP and LP sections of a Bessel alignment, then you have a Bessel alignment. If you chose the Bessel alignment from a list of electrical filters in a DSP, then you don't have a Bessel crossover unless your speakers have perfectly flat response within a couple of octaves of the crossover point. If you calculated the component values for a passive crossover using the nominal impedance of your drivers, then you don't have a Bessel crossover.


----------



## FordEscape

*'14 Ford Escape Non-Sony Application Q's*

Considering the MS-8 for my Escape (please see sig for current system info)and I'll admit I've not yet made it through all the posts in this thread so apology up-front if asking already answered Q's.

Background - I am not a car-audio pro/fanatic, I just like my music to sound as good as it can within my budget; wide range of music tastes jazz, classic, rock, folk; primary music source in the car is lossless WMA9 ripped from CD to a 256GB USB stick (no MPx or other lossy formats); more interested in SQ than SPL within limits of budget as indicated by current components; I'm a retired engineer, competent with electrical mods, do all my own installations.

Goal - basically satisfied with current system but would like to try the more 'full' sound experience touted with DSP. I'm willing to sacrifice the rarely-used OEM interface for balance/fade/treb-mid-bass/etc.; I'd most likely, after getting the MS-8 'trimmed', not use the MS-8 remote & display, instead using only the OEM voice/steering wheel controls for basic volume adjustment. I prefer my car interior to not have obvious add-on stuff visible.

Q's:
*1. Power-on options:* My current amp & powered sub use speaker-level inputs from the OEM HU with 'auto-sensing' power-on (no separate/dedicated power-on lead). Works great, no thumps/pops and the system activates with Ford SYNC including delay-power-off after the ignition key is off and audio available with key out of the ignition. There is no power-on output from my HU or fuse box that offers the same power-on/power-off 'timing'. MS-8 does not have auto-sensing power-on. *Can I use the PAC TR4 Universal Trigger Module connected to any HU +speaker-out pin to power-on the MS-8 ("Rem In"), with the MRV-F300 and PWE-S8 then powered-on by the MS-8 ("Rem Out")?*

*2. MS-8 to F & R speaker connections:* My front and rear door Alpine 610C speakers are component mid/tweet with a passive X-over between. I used these rather than coaxial speakers to allow the tweets to be installed in the separate OEM locations (A-pillars and high in the rear doors). As-is, these are "1-way" speakers in MS-8 parlance and would be driven using MS-8 line-out to the 4 channels of the MRV-F300 amp thence to each SPS-610C 'pair' (each tweet+mid on 1 channel). *Would it be better to separate the tweet from the mid for the front speakers, ditch the existing passive X-over, and assign the front tweets separate channels from the MS-8? In other words, convert the fronts to "2-way speakers" in MS-8 parlance, use MS-8 line-out for the front mids and tweets discretely thru the 4-channel MRV-F300, then use the MS-8 built-in amps (speaker level out) for the rear door '1-way' combined mid/tweets as shown below?
Line out 1>MRV amp ch1>LF tweet
Line out 2>MRV amp ch2>LF mid
Speaker out 3> LR mid/X-over/tweet '1-way'
Speaker out 5> RR mid/X-over/tweet '1-way'
Line out 7>MRV amp ch3>RF mid
Line out 8>MRV amp ch4>RF tweet
*
*5. Center speaker:* I currently do not use the P***-poor OEM 3"x8 Ohm top-of-dash center speaker in the Escape (it only 'muddies' the sound if connected). I _think_ I can squeeze an Alpine SPS-510 (5-1/4"/4 Ohm) coaxial speaker in that location. *Would that be the way to go for a center speaker on MS-8 speaker-out ch4 if I want to experience the full benefit of the MS-8?*

*4. MS-8 to powered subwoofer connection:* My Alpine PWE-S8 powered sub has inputs for L & R channels (line level or speaker level) which it obviously combines internally for the mono sub. *How should I connect that powered sub to the single remaining MS-8 line out channel 6? Should I use a male-to-male mono-to-stereo splitter cable in 'reverse' from the single MS-8 RCA out to the separate powered sub L&R RCA inputs?*

*5. Effect on using my SYNC-ed phone?*I've found (confusing) posts about how the MS-8 affects use of the Bluetooth-linked phone on Ford SYNC systems. Yes, I understand there's an inherent 'processing delay' with any DSP, but how does that manifest when using a phone? *Is there an echo heard on either-end of calls when the MS-8 is installed? Is there a 'defeat' to avoid that when the MS-8 is installed? If so, what are the steps needed to 'invoke' the defeat when receiving/making a call?*

Attached FYI are a few pics from an Escape forum DIY of my current installation, intended to be as stealthy as possible having no impact on how I use my Escape, allowing me to fill the cargo area without impacting the audio SQ (thus rear-mounted larger sub(s) were not an option for me).

Sorry for the long post but *Thanks In Advance *for answers to my Q's or suggestions/corrections. I'm intrigued by what the MS-8 seems to offer but want to fully understand how I should implement it before making the investment and the effect on phone use is a critical factor for me.


----------



## dallasneon

Anyone know if the 31 band EQ is still functional if you defeat processing in the menu?


----------



## Duckstu

dallasneon said:


> Anyone know if the 31 band EQ is still functional if you defeat processing in the menu?


Yes. Defeating processing defeats the time alignment and the automated EQ'ing.

(really wish the first post had links to these answers. I bet this question has been asked 50 times. I just asked it last week.


----------



## Lanson

Extremely solid points. I just chose it as my target curve when building the passive components because I had to chose _something._ I also chose drivers that had low inductance and had their crossover point as far away from their inductance spikes as I could, to minimize the weirdness. 

Worth noting the MS-8 did a completely awesome job getting them to sound good.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> In response to Fourthmeal's post about crossovers, choosing an electrical alignment is not an assurance of phase coherency, or even frequency response summing, for that matter.
> 
> Crossovers, whether they are passive or active are designed to alter the response of the SPEAKER to fit some alignment. So, if you used an RTA or some other method of measuring the frequency response of the driver and then adjusted your crossover and EQ so that the measured response of mid and the tweeter matched that of the HP and LP sections of a Bessel alignment, then you have a Bessel alignment. If you chose the Bessel alignment from a list of electrical filters in a DSP, then you don't have a Bessel crossover unless your speakers have perfectly flat response within a couple of octaves of the crossover point. If you calculated the component values for a passive crossover using the nominal impedance of your drivers, then you don't have a Bessel crossover.


----------



## Lanson

*Re: '14 Ford Escape Non-Sony Application Q's*

Sounds like the Escape and Flex share many common things.

You can probably get a 4 - 5" driver in there, if you build a panel for it like I did my Flex. If our dashes have the same color and texture in common, then the vinyl is Dynasty brand, and "coal" is the name of the color. Its a perfect match.



FordEscape said:


> Considering the MS-8 for my Escape (please see sig for current system info)and I'll admit I've not yet made it through all the posts in this thread so apology up-front if asking already answered Q's.
> 
> Background - I am not a car-audio pro/fanatic, I just like my music to sound as good as it can within my budget; wide range of music tastes jazz, classic, rock, folk; primary music source in the car is lossless WMA9 ripped from CD to a 256GB USB stick (no MPx or other lossy formats); more interested in SQ than SPL within limits of budget as indicated by current components; I'm a retired engineer, competent with electrical mods, do all my own installations.
> 
> Goal - basically satisfied with current system but would like to try the more 'full' sound experience touted with DSP. I'm willing to sacrifice the rarely-used OEM interface for balance/fade/treb-mid-bass/etc.; I'd most likely, after getting the MS-8 'trimmed', not use the MS-8 remote & display, instead using only the OEM voice/steering wheel controls for basic volume adjustment. I prefer my car interior to not have obvious add-on stuff visible.
> 
> Q's:
> *1. Power-on options:* My current amp & powered sub use speaker-level inputs from the OEM HU with 'auto-sensing' power-on (no separate/dedicated power-on lead). Works great, no thumps/pops and the system activates with Ford SYNC including delay-power-off after the ignition key is off and audio available with key out of the ignition. There is no power-on output from my HU or fuse box that offers the same power-on/power-off 'timing'. MS-8 does not have auto-sensing power-on. *Can I use the PAC TR4 Universal Trigger Module connected to any HU +speaker-out pin to power-on the MS-8 ("Rem In"), with the MRV-F300 and PWE-S8 then powered-on by the MS-8 ("Rem Out")?*
> 
> *2. MS-8 to F & R speaker connections:* My front and rear door Alpine 610C speakers are component mid/tweet with a passive X-over between. I used these rather than coaxial speakers to allow the tweets to be installed in the separate OEM locations (A-pillars and high in the rear doors). As-is, these are "1-way" speakers in MS-8 parlance and would be driven using MS-8 line-out to the 4 channels of the MRV-F300 amp thence to each SPS-610C 'pair' (each tweet+mid on 1 channel). *Would it be better to separate the tweet from the mid for the front speakers, ditch the existing passive X-over, and assign the front tweets separate channels from the MS-8? In other words, convert the fronts to "2-way speakers" in MS-8 parlance, use MS-8 line-out for the front mids and tweets discretely thru the 4-channel MRV-F300, then use the MS-8 built-in amps (speaker level out) for the rear door '1-way' combined mid/tweets as shown below?
> Line out 1>MRV amp ch1>LF tweet
> Line out 2>MRV amp ch2>LF mid
> Speaker out 3> LR mid/X-over/tweet '1-way'
> Speaker out 5> RR mid/X-over/tweet '1-way'
> Line out 7>MRV amp ch3>RF mid
> Line out 8>MRV amp ch4>RF tweet
> *
> *5. Center speaker:* I currently do not use the P***-poor OEM 3"x8 Ohm top-of-dash center speaker in the Escape (it only 'muddies' the sound if connected). I _think_ I can squeeze an Alpine SPS-510 (5-1/4"/4 Ohm) coaxial speaker in that location. *Would that be the way to go for a center speaker on MS-8 speaker-out ch4 if I want to experience the full benefit of the MS-8?*
> 
> *4. MS-8 to powered subwoofer connection:* My Alpine PWE-S8 powered sub has inputs for L & R channels (line level or speaker level) which it obviously combines internally for the mono sub. *How should I connect that powered sub to the single remaining MS-8 line out channel 6? Should I use a male-to-male mono-to-stereo splitter cable in 'reverse' from the single MS-8 RCA out to the separate powered sub L&R RCA inputs?*
> 
> *5. Effect on using my SYNC-ed phone?*I've found (confusing) posts about how the MS-8 affects use of the Bluetooth-linked phone on Ford SYNC systems. Yes, I understand there's an inherent 'processing delay' with any DSP, but how does that manifest when using a phone? *Is there an echo heard on either-end of calls when the MS-8 is installed? Is there a 'defeat' to avoid that when the MS-8 is installed? If so, what are the steps needed to 'invoke' the defeat when receiving/making a call?*
> 
> Attached FYI are a few pics from an Escape forum DIY of my current installation, intended to be as stealthy as possible having no impact on how I use my Escape, allowing me to fill the cargo area without impacting the audio SQ (thus rear-mounted larger sub(s) were not an option for me).
> 
> Sorry for the long post but *Thanks In Advance *for answers to my Q's or suggestions/corrections. I'm intrigued by what the MS-8 seems to offer but want to fully understand how I should implement it before making the investment and the effect on phone use is a critical factor for me.


----------



## fantasy

So I finally finished running all the wires and everything and ran the setup today for the first time. During the input setup, the "signal" part was okay, but the "level" part kept saying "low". I turned up both the volume on the ms8 and on my hu to the max and it still said low. 

I'm using the ms8's high level inputs from my factory hu. Does this mean I'll need to get a line driver to get past the "level" part? If so, which one would you guys recommend. I was looking at the RF-BLD. 

Well anyways, I skipped the input setup and went to the output setup. After I was done with that and the acoustic calibration, I went ahead and turned on some music to listen. It sounded horrible lol. I'm hoping that the awful sound is directly related to not passing the input setting. I even turned off the processing and it still sounded horrible.


----------



## FordEscape

A public apology for my ill-considered and lazy first post above. I'm up to page 170 and will continue, of course all my Q's have been or will be answered and I'll be much better informed about the MS-8 in all respects to boot. So far I'm at 20 pages of "Andy W. answers" clipped to a Word document for easier reference when I get my MS-8 in hand.

I'm obviously not a "true" DIYMA'er but am definitely smack in the middle of the target market for the MS-8. Thank you, Andy W., for the product development and your incredible patience in providing support through this venue; though not quite half-way through the 'course' at page 170, I look forward to each session in the 'classroom' of your posts.


----------



## Golden Ear

FordEscape said:


> So far I'm at 20 pages of "Andy W. answers" clipped to a Word document for easier reference.


If you would post this document when it's complete you'll probably be loved and adored by many for many years to come. It might even become a 'Sticky'


----------



## kaigoss69

Duckstu said:


> Yes. Defeating processing defeats the time alignment and the automated EQ'ing.
> 
> (really wish the first post had links to these answers. I bet this question has been asked 50 times. I just asked it last week.


Hey Duck, empty your inbox!


----------



## Duckstu

kaigoss69 said:


> Hey Duck, empty your inbox!


Sorry. Just did. A bunch of spam advertising just filled it up.

First forum I've ever seen that had spam ads in their private message system.
.


----------



## AAAAAAA

dallasneon said:


> Anyone know if the 31 band EQ is still functional if you defeat processing in the menu?


The manual one still works if you defeat processing. So you can turn off L7 and processing and use the EQ as you wish: it will work.


----------



## FordEscape

Well, I’ve finished this very educational 411 page ‘tutorial’ and all the linked ‘supplemental study guides’ including the most important MS-8 Manual. I’ve learned a lot since my ill-considered first post #10257 above. Gotta again add my huge appreciation to Andy Wehmeyer especially, and other contributors, for sharing their experience on this forum.

My new MS-8 is due from Amazon Tuesday.

My hopefully much better informed MS-8 ‘deployment plan’ is on the attached figure which shows component arrangement and all filter & slope settings. I'm proposing the 'front 3-way' approach with my powered sub setup as Front L/R Lo, not as Ch8 'Sub'. *I’d really appreciate scrutiny by some experienced critical eyes with any suggested changes / corrections for that plan.*

The existing HU, speakers and powered subwoofer shown in black on the attached figure are as follows:

*Vehicle* – 2014 Ford Escape SE

*HU* – OEM non-Sony with Ford SYNC/8” MFT display with 5-channels out (Front L/R, Rear Door L/R, Front Dash Center); speaker-level outputs only, no external OEM amplifiers, no Rem power output.

*Front & Rear Speakers *– Alpine SPS-610C component 2-way with passive X-over; 6.5” in lower doors, 1” tweeter in front sail-panels and in rear upper doors; the stated component specs are:*6.5” midrange *– 80 W RMS; sens 88dB; 4 Ohm; freq resp 70Hz - ? (I have not found the upper freq resp claim for this component alone).
*1” silk dome tweeter *– 100 W RMS; sens 88dB; 4 Ohm; freq resp 1000 – 22k Hz
*Passive X-over *– no specs found.​*Powered Sub-woofer *– Alpine PWE S-8; 8” poly/aluminum in a small sealed enclosure; 120 W RMS; freq resp 25-152 Hz; non-defeatable adjustable LP X-over, range 50 – 150 Hz; input sensitivity (RCA) 0.1 – 4.0 V; remote bass level control range 0 to -20 dB.

In my first post I mention an Alpine MRV-F300 amp currently installed; to simplify my introduction to the MS-8 I now plan to not use any external amp (other than the powered sub) for my initial MS-8 installation.

*One Specific Question:*
The powered subwoofer has a remote level control knob with a stated range of 0 to -20dB. Where should that level be set for the Setup & Calibration process? (powered subwoofer gain will be set to the middle of the 0.1 - 4.0V range = 2V)

EDIT - I just realized I show the Front Hi Pass filter setting as 20Hz, Slope 12dB/octave (MS-8 Manual default recommendation). With the powered sub claimed spec freq response of 25-152Hz, should I raise that Front Hi Pass Filter to 25Hz and/or use a different Slope?

>>> I’ve no delusions that any initial setup will yield perfection. My goal at this point is to have a sensible initial setup to hopefully achieve a good base for any required tweaking. My long-term goal is to enjoy my music while driving, not to become a “true DIYMA’er” with a never-ending progression of ‘tweaks and upgrades’ (I have another hobby that fulfills that need ;-).

TIA for your guidance.


----------



## 14642

USe MS-8's subwoofer level control instead of the control that came with your amp. It's designed to keep the illusion of bass in the front by using a shelf filter applied to all the channels. 

Much better than just increasing the gain. Look at the manual for an MS-A1004 online to see the explanation of why this works


----------



## FordEscape

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> USe MS-8's subwoofer level control instead of the control that came with your amp. It's designed to keep the illusion of bass in the front by using a shelf filter applied to all the channels.
> 
> Much better than just increasing the gain. Look at the manual for an MS-A1004 online to see the explanation of why this works


Thanks for your reply. Please correct me, but I thought that the MS-8 subwoofer control/shelf filter was only available to the user if the sub is connected and designated as a "Sub" during MS-8 output setup? I've read your description of the benefit of that cool subwoofer control/shelf filter in several posts in this thread.

I understood (again please correct me) that if the sub is designated as "Front Lo" using the scheme discussed around page 400+ of this thread (which my plan proposes), that specific subwoofer shelf filter feature of the MS-8 is not 'available', the user then being limited to using the MS-8 EQ to make adjustments, which affects all channels equally within the affected frequency range?

Your reply makes me realize I should disconnect the sub's remote level control and actually test both the MS-8 "Sub" designation/setup and the 'sub as "Front Lo" setup' to see if one sounds better than the other for my specific application. I should not start with the presumption that the latter setup will be 'best' for me; if the former setup sounds better insofar as the sub that would open a channel for a Center speaker, which I was willing to sacrifice since 99% of the time I'm the sole vehicle occupant.


----------



## Lanson

FordEscape said:


> Thanks for your reply. Please correct me, but I thought that the MS-8 subwoofer control/shelf filter was only 'in play' if the sub is connected and designated as a "Sub" during MS-8 output setup?
> 
> I understood (again please correct me) that if the sub is designated as "Front Lo" using the scheme discussed around page 400+ of this thread, that specific subwoofer shelf filter feature of the MS-8 is not 'available', the user then being limited to using the MS-8 EQ to make adjustments, which affects all speakers equally within the affected frequency range (and adjacent per the sophisticated EQ system)?
> 
> In part, your reply makes me realize I should disconnect the sub's remote level control and actually test both the MS-8 "Sub" designation/setup and the 'sub as "Front Lo" setup' to see if one sounds better than the other for my specific application. If the former sounds better insofar as the sub that would open a channel for a Center speaker, which I was willing to sacrifice since 99% of the time I'm the sole vehicle occupant.


It is still a bass shelf, so when you adjust the "subwoofer" in the MS-8, it is adjusting all channels in the range of its adjustment.


----------



## Duckstu

That's good to know.

I was just replacing my rear door speakers with the aftermarket ones and was about to re-configure my subs as Ft Lows. (I now have an extra channel available as I have removed the center channel from the system).

*But Houston,.. we have a problem.*

The *jack for my display seems to have disappeared*. I must have bumped the cord while it was plugged in and broken it off? It's just not there. An empty hole. ARGH !


----------



## VP Electricity

Major failure point for the MS-8. 

BTW we have one NIB on close out. Pm me.


----------



## swargolet

Anyone know how the MS8 handles vastly different power between some of the speakers? I really want to double the power to my front stage but am unable to for the center. Here is how it would be:

300W to each front woofer
200W to each front tweeter
500W to the sub
Center and rears are on MS8. 

I assume the rears would be fine, but from my reading on this thread, the center should be a similar speaker to the other ones (which mine isnt) and should be powered similarly. Would I be better off just unhooking the center?


----------



## Duckstu

swargolet said:


> Anyone know how the MS8 handles vastly different power between some of the speakers? I really want to double the power to my front stage but am unable to for the center. Here is how it would be:
> 
> 300W to each front woofer
> 200W to each front tweeter
> 500W to the sub
> Center and rears are on MS8.
> 
> I assume the rears would be fine, but from my reading on this thread, the center should be a similar speaker to the other ones (which mine isnt) and should be powered similarly. Would I be better off just unhooking the center?



Wow that's a TON of power. Usually tweeters are so efficient that you can max them out with 50 - 75 watts.

Those woofers have a rating of 100 watts (max short term 200).

It's better to have a bigger amp than a smaller one of course (less chance of clipping),.. but are you running any of those amp channels bridged? If so you'd free up a couple channels and clean up the distortion by unbridging them,... with little if any loss in volume.

Center channels are an acquired taste. In my experience I prefer not to have one (and just removed the Seas unit I had laboriously installed a month ago). No matter what I try the front stage is always pulled to the center of "the car",... which is off to the right a foot or more of ME. I like it in front of ME. Also,.. for my tastes,.. the MS puts too much of the music signal into the center,... and lowers the levels of the sides a lot. To the point that with the center active I rarely had the VU meters on the amp running my mid-bass drivers registering over 7 watts (on a 100 watt x 4 amp).

I also find that because I want the stage in front of me,.. the rears never demand all that much power. If the front mid-bass drivers are hammering away at 100 watts,.. the front tweets are at perhaps 40,.. and the rear mid-bass drivers are at perhaps 50 watts. As you know,.. dropping the rear volume by a mere 3 db (fader to the front a click) cuts the power to the rears in half. Cut the rear 6 db and you can power the rears with a 25 watt amp (so the MS-8 internal amp would do.

just my thoughts.
.


----------



## 14642

Duckstu said:


> Wow that's a TON of power. Usually tweeters are so efficient that you can max them out with 50 - 75 watts.
> 
> Those woofers have a rating of 100 watts (max short term 200).
> 
> It's better to have a bigger amp than a smaller one of course (less chance of clipping),.. but are you running any of those amp channels bridged? If so you'd free up a couple channels and clean up the distortion by unbridging them,... with little if any loss in volume.
> 
> Center channels are an acquired taste. In my experience I prefer not to have one (and just removed the Seas unit I had laboriously installed a month ago). No matter what I try the front stage is always pulled to the center of "the car",... which is off to the right a foot or more of ME. I like it in front of ME. Also,.. for my tastes,.. the MS puts too much of the music signal into the center,... and lowers the levels of the sides a lot. To the point that with the center active I rarely had the VU meters on the amp running my mid-bass drivers registering over 7 watts (on a 100 watt x 4 amp).
> 
> I also find that because I want the stage in front of me,.. the rears never demand all that much power. If the front mid-bass drivers are hammering away at 100 watts,.. the front tweets are at perhaps 40,.. and the rear mid-bass drivers are at perhaps 50 watts. As you know,.. dropping the rear volume by a mere 3 db (fader to the front a click) cuts the power to the rears in half. Cut the rear 6 db and you can power the rears with a 25 watt amp (so the MS-8 internal amp would do.
> 
> just my thoughts.
> .



MS-8 is designed to place the the center in the center of the car.


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## swargolet

Thanks. 

Yup it is a stupid amount of power and I would prefer not to do it but I just have never been able to get the volume that I want with this MS8 and I have no idea why. I've tried many different calibration volumes, gain matching, level matching, increase gain slightly after calibration, and a few other things with no luck.

Nothing is currently bridged. My plan was to add a HD600/4 into the mix and bridge the channels on both amps. I had a few issues recently and swapped out the HD900 for the HD600 (so an extra 50W per ch but no sub) and it sounded quite a bit nicer and could get a little louder. I have since put the HD900 back in and once again the volume is crap. I'd estimate it maxes out around 75dB. I'll have to measure it sometime.

I just bought a pair of ScanSpeak Illuminator D3004/6020-00 tweeters since I just blew my other ones  and they are rated at 50W RMS 130W Long-term max power, so 200W would be excessive I agree. Once I install these tweeters I'll tune it again and see how it sounds. I did notice that without the sub, the upper bass and mids sounded 100x better. More impact, sound was upfront, and less boomy so I think I'm going to try setting subs as front low and removing the center as well.


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## 14642

I can't imagine not being able to get enough volume with MS-8. Are you using the head unit's volume control or MS-8?


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## kaigoss69

swargolet said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Yup it is a stupid amount of power and I would prefer not to do it but I just have never been able to get the volume that I want with this MS8 and I have no idea why. I've tried many different calibration volumes, gain matching, level matching, increase gain slightly after calibration, and a few other things with no luck.
> 
> Nothing is currently bridged. My plan was to add a HD600/4 into the mix and bridge the channels on both amps. I had a few issues recently and swapped out the HD900 for the HD600 (so an extra 50W per ch but no sub) and it sounded quite a bit nicer and could get a little louder. I have since put the HD900 back in and once again the volume is crap. I'd estimate it maxes out around 75dB. I'll have to measure it sometime.
> 
> I just bought a pair of ScanSpeak Illuminator D3004/6020-00 tweeters since I just blew my other ones  and they are rated at 50W RMS 130W Long-term max power, so 200W would be excessive I agree. Once I install these tweeters I'll tune it again and see how it sounds. I did notice that without the sub, the upper bass and mids sounded 100x better. More impact, sound was upfront, and less boomy so I think I'm going to try setting subs as front low and removing the center as well.


Do you have the input switch on the amp set correctly? I had plenty of volume with the HD amps, but the problem was the amount of noise, white noise and alternator whine. Both would be at unacceptable levels with the gains past the 1 o'clock position. I'm sure this has to do with a relatively low voltage signal from the MS-8. To increase system volume, and keep noise low, I believe the answer is to use a line driver between the MS-8 and the amps driving the tweeters and/or mids.


----------



## swargolet

I use the headunit's volume control but have the MS8 control set at 0. My headunit increases in volume pretty linearly until about 32 which is also the volume which the MS8 starts sensing a high enough signal during calibration. From 32-62, the volume increases but by very little, so I usually just keep it at 32 and below. I'd prefer to have the MS8 volume around -5 or lower because I get some pretty noticeable noise above -5 but it just isn't possible to have it that low.

Kaigoss69, I thought about adding in a line driver since I did notice that the output voltage was quite low for the HD amps, but when speaking with JL tech support, they said it shouldn't be an issue as the HD amps can work with a very low input voltage. The input voltage switch is set to low which should be correct. I set the gains according to the JL manual for the impedance of my speakers. I also tried level matching everything as closely to my center as possible. The overall volume really doesnt seem to change much with changes made PRIOR to the calibration. It seems that as long as the MS8 has something reasonable to work with, it will produce a similar result each time, at least in terms of volume.


----------



## Duckstu

swargolet said:


> I use the headunit's volume control but have the MS8 control set at 0.


Have you tried Kaigoss's method of setting the amps input levels?

I played with the MS-8 for almost a year before I was turned on to it.

Set the MS-8 system volume to -25.

Then go into the hidden menu (press and hold left arrow for a few seconds,... then quickly press and hold the right arrow).

There you find input level settings. Essentially the same as the white noise for checking that each channel is working at the beginning of the calibration process,... except the tweets and mids remain separate.

Then using a db meter,... adjust the amp gains for each channel. He places the db meter about where his head would be and sets the various channels to the following levels;

75 db for the front tweets
79 db for the mid-bass drivers
83 ish for the sub.

If you have a center channel that is a co-ax or a wide-bander,... average the fronts, or about 77 db.

Then exit that menu and run the calibration. Leave the MS-8 system volume at -25 for the calibration. The test tones should be at roughly conversation level.

When you're done,.. adjust the MS-8 system volume back up to -6 db. (The MS-8 gets a bit noisy above -6db,...and so the manual says to set it there).

For me this process raised the max db in the car by 20-30 db. From having the radio maxed all the time to get 75 db in car,... to now where I rarely go past 1/2 way on the radio volume.


Another tip; disconnect the mic from the MS-8 BEFORE selecting "Done" at the end of calibration.
.
Is that right everybody? Please let me know if I got any of that wrong.
.


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## swargolet

I did see that process when he posted a month or so ago and wanted to try it out but never got around to it. Using the Output Identification in the secret menu is actually what blew my tweeters out! I forgot to set the crossover on my amp and tweeters don't like full range signals :/ The crossover on my amp only goes down to 500hz anyways so I dont really want to use that to set my levels. I'll probably just unhook speakers from the amp to set it the tweeters.

I have also tried different calibration levels and I believe -25 produced a pretty bad calibration. I forgot exactly what level it gave a good calibration but I did notice that once I was below that level, it really didn't seem to matter what I choose. For instance, -30 and -45 produced similar calibrations. Where I looked when I turned my head changed up the calibration MUCH MUCH more than the calibration volume.

Once I get my new tweeters (hopefully Thursday!) then I'll try that out and report back. I do have a feeling that one of my speakers was having issues and so the MS8 would set all the levels to that problematic speaker. I guess I'll see soon.


----------



## Duckstu

swargolet said:


> I did see that process when he posted a month or so ago and wanted to try it out but never got around to it. Using the Output Identification in the secret menu is actually what blew my tweeters out! I forgot to set the crossover on my amp and tweeters don't like full range signals :/ The crossover on my amp only goes down to 500hz anyways so I dont really want to use that to set my levels. I'll probably just unhook speakers from the amp to set it the tweeters.
> 
> I have also tried different calibration levels and I believe -25 produced a pretty bad calibration. I forgot exactly what level it gave a good calibration but I did notice that once I was below that level, it really didn't seem to matter what I choose. For instance, -30 and -45 produced similar calibrations. Where I looked when I turned my head changed up the calibration MUCH MUCH more than the calibration volume.
> 
> Once I get my new tweeters (hopefully Thursday!) then I'll try that out and report back. I do have a feeling that one of my speakers was having issues and so the MS8 would set all the levels to that problematic speaker. I guess I'll see soon.



You REALLY want to have some protection for tweeters. I run some metalized-polypropylene capacitors in-line in the pos wire of my tweets for just that reason.

As an example,.. with an 8 ohm tweeter,.. a 6.8 mfd cap would give you a -6 db per octave roll-off at about 3,000 or so hz (First-order in Rockford terminology).

So I plug a 10 mfd cap in there (perhaps 2,000hz). Once the system is up and running,.. that won't have any effect on the sound as it will be well below the crossover point that the MS-8 is using,... but if anything goes awry,... I won't pop a tweeter.


----------



## 14642

swargolet said:


> I use the headunit's volume control but have the MS8 control set at 0. My headunit increases in volume pretty linearly until about 32 which is also the volume which the MS8 starts sensing a high enough signal during calibration. From 32-62, the volume increases but by very little, so I usually just keep it at 32 and below. I'd prefer to have the MS8 volume around -5 or lower because I get some pretty noticeable noise above -5 but it just isn't possible to have it that low.
> 
> Kaigoss69, I thought about adding in a line driver since I did notice that the output voltage was quite low for the HD amps, but when speaking with JL tech support, they said it shouldn't be an issue as the HD amps can work with a very low input voltage. The input voltage switch is set to low which should be correct. I set the gains according to the JL manual for the impedance of my speakers. I also tried level matching everything as closely to my center as possible. The overall volume really doesnt seem to change much with changes made PRIOR to the calibration. It seems that as long as the MS8 has something reasonable to work with, it will produce a similar result each time, at least in terms of volume.


Do NOT SET THE GAINS USING THE METER FOR THE IMPEDANCE OF YOUR SPEAKERS. Set them at the 2V setting, calibrate and then turn them up afterward if you don't have enough level. 

If the noise floor is coming from MS-8, then adding line drivers between it and the amps isn't going to remove it. That will help if the noise comes from the amplifier's input circuit. 

If you have hiss, it's important to figure out where it's coming from. If the factory head unit has a bunch of cut at high frequencies, then MS-8 is going to boost that, which will also boost the sound of the hiss, if it comes from the radio. If you don't have tweeters or they are set low via the amp gains of the passive crossovers, then MS-8 is going to boost thie high frequencies, which will also boost the level of the noise if it comes from the head unit. 

MS-8's noise floor isn't high and it isn't a noisy piece of gear.


----------



## MetricMuscle

swargolet said:


> Anyone know how the MS8 handles vastly different power between some of the speakers? I really want to double the power to my front stage but am unable to for the center. Here is how it would be:
> 
> 300W to each front woofer
> 200W to each front tweeter
> 500W to the sub
> Center and rears are on MS8.
> 
> I assume the rears would be fine, but from my reading on this thread, the center should be a similar speaker to the other ones (which mine isnt) and should be powered similarly. Would I be better off just unhooking the center?


The center should be as similar to the front L/R as possible, not just a small "fill" speaker. The rears should be similar too at least the mid and tweeter contribution. What do you have for rear speakers?

Are you setting this up for the driver's seat listening position or for both driver and passenger seat?
If you are optimizing your set up for just the driver's seat then you don't need a center channel at all.
Center channels help when setting up two seat listening but it is a compromise and it won't sound as "centered" for either seat.


----------



## swargolet

I do have quite a bit of noise (alt noise and hissing) coming either from my amp or MS8 so hopefully one of these suggestions help. The amp is a high end amp and I dont believe it is known to make much noise, so I assume something is going on with my setup causing the noise to be created within the MS8. Someone did some measurements on my factory HU at some point and stated that it has a pretty flat response overall.

K I'll try it at 2V then. The gain on the HD amp goes from 200mV to 2V. Does this mean that I should set the gains all the way up (clockwise) or down (counterclockwise)? I get my new tweeters tonight so I'll try setting to 2V and calibrating.


Andy, I'm also somewhat confused by this statement as it seems to contradict your gains @2V statement:


Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If you don't have tweeters or they are set low via the amp gains or the passive crossovers, then MS-8 is going to boost the high frequencies...


If at 2V my midwoofers are significantly louder than my tweeters at 2V for whatever reason, be it impedance, sensitivity, environment, etc.., then you're saying it would boost the tweeters and I'd get less than satisfactory results. So logically, I should try to level match everything then so the MS8 doesn't have to try to boost as much, but then gains won't be at 2V.  

@MeticMuscle Sadly due to space constraints I am limited to a 3.5" center. So I have a JL Audio C2-350x in the center, Focal KRX2 woofers and ScanSpeak Illuminator D3004/6020-00 Tweeters for the front L/R. I didn't think the rears matter much since only out-of-phase sound is pushed to them. I'm currently running the crap stock speakers in the rear. I have some Alpine Type-S coax sitting in the basement that I should probably throw in. 

Everything is tuned to the drivers seat. I don't even run calibration for any of the other seats as from my understanding it doesn't change anything for the driver's calibration so it isn't worth the effort for me. I have the center crossed at 160hz to try and have it so the MS8 pushes more to the L/R channels. I have tried it without the center it to me it sounded very similar. If I do make the subs as front lows and I like it, then I'll just remove the center.


----------



## chuyler1

Hi guys, I'm not caught up on the last 50 or so pages but maybe you can help...

My unit has the issue where the input voltage warning shuts it off. I resolved this by placing a diode inline of the power cable. Works fine and hasn't shut off since. 

However, I have two issues at loud volumes. First, I periodically get breakup in the right channel, most noticable when there is only midrange coming out. It is electronic in nature and not caused by the cone bottoming out. Second, after a loud listening session, if I turn the volume down I hear low frequency modulation from the right woofer. I'd say its in the vicinity of 60Hz and resembles a woowoowoowoowoow sound. It slowly fades over time if I keep the volume down. 

System details...
* 2013 Mazda CX9
* OEM radio (not Bose)
* Speaker outputs to MS-8 speaker level inputs
* Tuning CD used to eq OEM radio at 45/65 on the dial and loud listening is around 55/65.
* Tuned with MS-8 at -20db (have not messed with that hidden menu I just found out about)
* No aftermarket amps, MS-8 is used to power the following...
* (3) 3.5" Fostex full range drivers in dash (CH1, CH7, CH2)
* (2) 8" HiVi woofers in front doors (CH3, CH4)
* (2) OEM 5x7" woofers in rear doors (CH5, CH6)


----------



## kaigoss69

Swargolet, when I was using the HD amps, my gain setting was roughly 12 to 1 o'clock. That was the best compromise between noise and system volume.


----------



## swargolet

kaigoss69 said:


> Swargolet, when I was using the HD amps, my gain setting was roughly 12 to 1 o'clock. That was the best compromise between noise and system volume.


So I assume that is around 1V given the range on the HD amp gain. I'm just getting more and more confused. :/ 

It'll be interested to see what Andy has to say about MY PREVIOUS POST


----------



## fantasy

chuyler1 said:


> Hi guys, I'm not caught up on the last 50 or so pages but maybe you can help...
> 
> My unit has the issue where the input voltage warning shuts it off. I resolved this by placing a diode inline of the power cable. Works fine and hasn't shut off since.
> 
> However, I have two issues at loud volumes. First, I periodically get breakup in the right channel, most noticable when there is only midrange coming out. It is electronic in nature and not caused by the cone bottoming out. Second, after a loud listening session, if I turn the volume down I hear low frequency modulation from the right woofer. I'd say its in the vicinity of 60Hz and resembles a woowoowoowoowoow sound. It slowly fades over time if I keep the volume down.
> 
> System details...
> * 2013 Mazda CX9
> * OEM radio (not Bose)
> * Speaker outputs to MS-8 speaker level inputs
> * Tuning CD used to eq OEM radio at 45/65 on the dial and loud listening is around 55/65.
> * Tuned with MS-8 at -20db (have not messed with that hidden menu I just found out about)
> * No aftermarket amps, MS-8 is used to power the following...
> * (3) 3.5" Fostex full range drivers in dash (CH1, CH7, CH2)
> * (2) 8" HiVi woofers in front doors (CH3, CH4)
> * (2) OEM 5x7" woofers in rear doors (CH5, CH6)


I just finished setting up my ms8 over the weekend and had some breaking up too. I was coming from my front left components. It was only coming from my mid and not my tweeter. The problem was fixed after I set the gains on my amps lower before running the calibration. It was set at 12 o'clock prior and I moved it to about 10 o'clock. I guess the mic was being clipped from the volume being too loud during the sweeps?

I haven't had much time to try alot of calibrations, but I'm noticing that when I choose the seat as "front", it sounds really good on the driver's side, but when I sit in the passenger side, it sounds different. The sound is kind of focused to the right, as opposed to when I'm sitting in the driver' seat and the sound is right in front of me. Is it supposed to be like that? I thought choosing "front" would make it sound similar for both seats. Would changing the distance of how much my head is turned during calibration help with this?


----------



## CDT FAN

did you calibrate by sitting in different seats?


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## fantasy

CDT FAN said:


> did you calibrate by sitting in different seats?


Yes, I move to the passenger's seat to do the second set of calibrations. 

If I sit in the driver's seat and select the seat as "driver", it sounds good. If I sit in the passenger's seat and select the seat as "passenger", it sounds good. But when I select the seat as "front", it only sounds good on the driver's side.


----------



## kaigoss69

swargolet said:


> So I assume that is around 1V given the range on the HD amp gain. I'm just getting more and more confused. :/
> 
> It'll be interested to see what Andy has to say about MY PREVIOUS POST


2V is just a starting point. Theoretically, it is the setting where the gain is "matched" to the MS-8 output voltage. However, in real life there are many factors that may require one to adjust the gains either up or down. I always started at 2V with the mids. Then level match all the other channels to the mids. That already means the other channels will likely not be exactly 2V. Then calibrate. If you're happy with the tune (tonality, imaging, staging), then turn up MS-8 to -6dB and increase HU volume until just before clipping. If at that point the volume is loud enough, and there is no noise/hiss, you're done. If it is not loud enough, then I would raise the mid gain by a bit, and level match the other channels again to the mids. Recalibrate and see where you are. Repeat if necessary. If there is noise/hiss, then the amp gains are likely too high. Set the mid gain lower, level match the others, recalibrate. It took me a while to find the sweet spot. Right now I'm at a point where I have just a little bit of engine whine, and the volume is maybe at 95% of where I would like it. So I have to compromise, but I'll probably invest in a line driver soon.


----------



## kaigoss69

fantasy said:


> Yes, I move to the passenger's seat to do the second set of calibrations.
> 
> If I sit in the driver's seat and select the seat as "driver", it sounds good. If I sit in the passenger's seat and select the seat as "passenger", it sounds good. But when I select the seat as "front", it only sounds good on the driver's side.


I never liked the "front" setting. It images way too much to the left side. Reminds me of the crappy OEM Logic 7 system in the BMW. If the imaging is not symmetrical though, between driver and passenger seats, something is off.


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## MetricMuscle

swargolet said:


> @MeticMuscle Sadly due to space constraints I am limited to a 3.5" center. So I have a JL Audio C2-350x in the center, Focal KRX2 woofers and ScanSpeak Illuminator D3004/6020-00 Tweeters for the front L/R. I didn't think the rears matter much since only out-of-phase sound is pushed to them. I'm currently running the crap stock speakers in the rear. I have some Alpine Type-S coax sitting in the basement that I should probably throw in.
> 
> Everything is tuned to the drivers seat. I don't even run calibration for any of the other seats as from my understanding it doesn't change anything for the driver's calibration so it isn't worth the effort for me. I have the center crossed at 160hz to try and have it so the MS8 pushes more to the L/R channels. I have tried it without the center it to me it sounded very similar. If I do make the subs as front lows and I like it, then I'll just remove the center.


Forget the center channel altogether.
The best you can ever do with the MS-8 is calibrated for one seat.
"Front" will be a compromise between both left and right front seats.

Improve your rear speakers.
You know how the professional car audio folks don't run any rear speakers, that's only if they don't have the right kinda processing to integrate rear speakers, most DSP can't really do this well because they weren't really intended for this. The MS-8 was and can integrate rear speakers very well but they need to be more/better than just "rear fill". This goes for the speakers and the power you are sending them.


----------



## fantasy

Is it important to select side vs rear during the xover setup? I have rear speakers (no sides) but ms8 is not letting me choose rear speakers. It only let's me select side speakers.


----------



## SQLnovice

Just did my second tune after installing my 3 way front stage. Amazing, amazing, amazing. I finally got the volume I needed. Thanks to all who contributed to this thread and especially the few pages.


----------



## t3sn4f2

fantasy said:


> Is it important to select side vs rear during the xover setup? I have rear speakers (no sides) but ms8 is not letting me choose rear speakers. It only let's me select side speakers.


That's how it works when you don't have side speakers.


----------



## swargolet

Installed the tweeters last night, set the gains to 2V, ran calibration at -45 and then increased the gains by a little less than 1/4 of a turn. Prior to calibrating I did listen to the tweeters and mids separately and they sounded very similar in volume, so I didn't pull out the mic and level match anything. It seems that most of the noise is gone now although I still have alternator whine. The overall tune is decent, although not great. The subwoofer is the best it has ever sounded, quite punchy but not boomy like it usually is. It is still lacking in the mids department but that can be fixed with EQ, which I'll be doing tonight. 

The overall volume is unchanged though. :/ I'm not too sure what to do at this point about the volume. Should I just keep turning up the gains by the same amount until I'm happy? I'll figure out what the gain settings would be set at if I followed JLs procedure of measuring voltage for a given impedance so then I know what not to go over. Any other thoughts?


----------



## chuyler1

Regarding side vs rear...

What would you consider the rear doors of an SUV? What about the front doors?

I have 3" full range in the dash and 8" woofers in the doors. I chose 2-way front stage, should I have chosen 1 way front and selected my 8" woofers for the side, and then rear door speakers as rear?


----------



## kaigoss69

chuyler1 said:


> Regarding side vs rear...
> 
> What would you consider the rear doors of an SUV? What about the front doors?
> 
> I have 3" full range in the dash and 8" woofers in the doors. I chose 2-way front stage, should I have chosen 1 way front and selected my 8" woofers for the side, and then rear door speakers as rear?


Sides are behind you, as are the rears. If you only have two channels behind you, then they are called sides. If you have 4 channels in the back, then you will have sides and rears.


----------



## chuyler1

Thanks Kai, that's what I assumed...but I figured I would double check.


----------



## MetricMuscle

kaigoss69 said:


> Sides are behind you, as are the rears. If you only have two channels behind you, then they are called sides. If you have 4 channels in the back, then you will have sides and rears.


IIRC, it won't give you the option for rears until you have assigned sides.


----------



## dengland

Duckstu said:


> Mid-bass drivers are 6.5" Boston Acoustics in the bottom of the doors. So I'm running the fronts as 2-way, using channels 3+4 for the 6.5's. The bottom of those are crossed at 80hz, 18 db
> 
> *Question*
> I will likely replace the rear door speakers with another set of 6.5" Bostons (I have a lot of them).


Are they pretty linear in their Frequency response?

I ask because my Factory 6x9s don't seen to be. This is measuring about 3 inches from the 6x9 (Blue line) in the door of a 1500 using the output diagnostic of the MS-8. 










I have an amp feeding a JL 10W3V3, and the MS-8 driving 3.5 Coaxials in the dash, 6x9 factory Front doors and rear doors.


Settings are :
Subsonic: 20Hz/12dB slope
Sub/Front Cross: 80Hz/24dB slope
Front Lo/Hi Cross: 300Hz/24dB slope
Center Hi Pass: 200Hz/24dB slope
Side Hi Pass: 100Hz/24dB slope
Sweeps Level: -40

LPF of the sub amp set to 200 for the calibration. 

I get this when I do a sweep:











I knocked down from 50-80Hz, 400-630 and boosted 20, 25, and 32Hz. Increased bottom end helped blend, but I keep thinking if the doors were flatter I would have a better starting place for the MS-8.

Green line is after the above adjustments.










I think I took a measurement a while back without the sub connected that had a similar shape.

(More of my saga is in my signature if anyone is interested)

I hate to take a crapshoot with a replacement speaker. If you have a bunch maybe I can buy a pair off of you. Can the MS-8 drive them OK?


----------



## kaigoss69

^^^ Do you have a HPF on the amp that drives the 6x9s? If yes I'd set it at 80hz and try again.


----------



## dengland

kaigoss69 said:


> ^^^ Do you have a HPF on the amp that drives the 6x9s? If yes I'd set it at 80hz and try again.


Thanks for the response.

No - MS-8 is driving everything but the sub.

EDIT:

Found a measurement I made driving the factory 6x9 in the front door directly. This is an REW sweep measurement.


----------



## 14642

dengland said:


> Are they pretty linear in their Frequency response?
> 
> I ask because my Factory 6x9s don't seen to be. This is measuring about 3 inches from the 6x9 (Blue line) in the door of a 1500 using the output diagnostic of the MS-8.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have an amp feeding a JL 10W3V3, and the MS-8 driving 3.5 Coaxials in the dash, 6x9 factory Front doors and rear doors.
> 
> 
> Settings are :
> Subsonic: 20Hz/12dB slope
> Sub/Front Cross: 80Hz/24dB slope
> Front Lo/Hi Cross: 300Hz/24dB slope
> Center Hi Pass: 200Hz/24dB slope
> Side Hi Pass: 100Hz/24dB slope
> Sweeps Level: -40
> 
> LPF of the sub amp set to 200 for the calibration.
> 
> I get this when I do a sweep:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I knocked down from 50-80Hz, 400-630 and boosted 20, 25, and 32Hz. Increased bottom end helped blend, but I keep thinking if the doors were flatter I would have a better starting place for the MS-8.
> 
> Green line is after the above adjustments.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I took a measurement a while back without the sub connected that had a similar shape.
> 
> (More of my saga is in my signature if anyone is interested)
> 
> I hate to take a crapshoot with a replacement speaker. If you have a bunch maybe I can buy a pair off of you. Can the MS-8 drive them OK?


Output diagnostics is full range pink noise without the EQ. 15dB of cut in the UN-EQ is no problem for MS-8. 

Try running a sweep with REW with the subwoofer amp disconnected to see if that big peak is in the 6x9's or in the sub. If the sub is in a really small sealed box that doesn't make much bass below 50Hz compared to what it makes between 50 and 80, this sometimes happens. MS-8 uses 50-80 to level match the subwoofer. If there's a lot of output there, MS-8 will reduce the level and then attempt to EQ the correct shape up to its limit.

The other thing to try is to set the sub amp's crossover to something like 50 Hz and then recalibrate. That'll flatten out the sub and help MS-8 level match.


----------



## dengland

^^^^
Thanks. I will give that a try this evening.


----------



## dengland

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Output diagnostics is full range pink noise without the EQ. 15dB of cut in the UN-EQ is no problem for MS-8.
> 
> Try running a sweep with REW with the subwoofer amp disconnected to see if that big peak is in the 6x9's or in the sub. If the sub is in a really small sealed box that doesn't make much bass below 50Hz compared to what it makes between 50 and 80, this sometimes happens. MS-8 uses 50-80 to level match the subwoofer. If there's a lot of output there, MS-8 will reduce the level and then attempt to EQ the correct shape up to its limit.


Unfortunately, I had recalibrated (lowered the MS-8 Sub / Front cross to 70Hz) and played with EQ a bit after the 11-28 graph before I posted a few days ago. So, I measured a baseline and disconnected the sub. Looks like all of the energy is from the sub.










The enclosure is small and sealed. 0.8 cubic feet (JL 10W3V3 wants 0.625 cf)



> The other thing to try is to set the sub amp's crossover to something like 50 Hz and then recalibrate. That'll flatten out the sub and help MS-8 level match.


Here is a new fast calibration with the Sub LPF @ 50Hz and MS-8 Sub / Front cross @ 50Hz as suggested (BLUE CURVE). The previous non EQed 11-28 curve from posts above is included for reference (RED CURVE).










I don't remember if I had clicked up the subwoofer shelf a few notches in the 11-28 measurement.

Regardless, it does not seem like the 6x9 are causing a problem in this scenario.


----------



## subwoofery

I think Andy suggested that you still try to have your Xover point @ 70Hz-80Hz for your subwoofer and front low (MS-8 settings) + use your Xover on your subwoofer amp @ about 50Hz 

Kelvin


----------



## dengland

subwoofery said:


> I think Andy suggested that you still try to have your Xover point @ 70Hz-80Hz for your subwoofer and front low (MS-8 settings) + use your Xover on your subwoofer amp @ about 50Hz
> 
> Kelvin


Well shoot. Thanks Kelvin. I will give that a go.


----------



## subwoofery

dengland said:


> Well shoot. Thanks Kelvin. I will give that a go.


Sub amp Xover first then re-calibrate 

Kelvin


----------



## Rbuller31

I was wondering if anyone has had any problems with low end cut out/muddy sound with MS8 and Ford Sync non sony? 
I have a 2014 Ford Focus SE, base model Ford Sync ( non sony or navigation), 700 watt 5 channel Alpine amp, JL 10W3 sub.
I didn't have any luck with the LC6i with clarity of my sub woofer during deeper bass. I have changed my sub to 12 inch, also hooked up my wifes stealth box, and changed sealed and ported boxes. I was told I needed a MS8 or processor to grab a full signal from my HU and bypass the Factory HU Settings. 
I had a Car Audio Shop install the MS8. They used front and rear stereo speaker wires from the HU into the input of the MS8. I was told by JBL that doing this on a basic non surround stereo can cause issues. I have just not read anyone having issues with this. I would really hate to go through the work of disconnecting the RR and LR off the MS8 is not needed. 
I have put a lot of money and time trying to gain low bass notes and clarity my wife's car and previous cars I have owned. Do you think its just the HU or does something need to be wired differently with the MS8? (front input channel only? I'm hoping its not the HU, I'm into the car for awhile and thought the MS8 was the fix. 
Anyone have any thoughts? I would appreciate the help. I don't know too much, but can take your ideas to a car audio shop. Thanks!


----------



## 14642

Kudos to JBL Tech support for knowing very little.

On a non surround stereo, running the rear channels into MS-8 isn't likely to cause issues. If there's no delay to the rear speakers and the only difference is frequency response, then it doesn't matter. IF there's a bunch of delay, then fixing that just chews up memory in MS-8. That's not the cause of poor bass. 

What is the cause? I don't know. Not enough information. What are the rest of the speakers and at what frequencies and slopes did you cross them over in MS-8's menu?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Rbuller31 said:


> I was wondering if anyone has had any problems with low end cut out/muddy sound with MS8 and Ford Sync non sony?
> I have a 2014 Ford Focus SE, base model Ford Sync ( non sony or navigation), 700 watt 5 channel Alpine amp, JL 10W3 sub.
> I didn't have any luck with the LC6i with clarity of my sub woofer during deeper bass. I have changed my sub to 12 inch, also hooked up my wifes stealth box, and changed sealed and ported boxes. I was told I needed a MS8 or processor to grab a full signal from my HU and bypass the Factory HU Settings.
> I had a Car Audio Shop install the MS8. They used front and rear stereo speaker wires from the HU into the input of the MS8. I was told by JBL that doing this on a basic non surround stereo can cause issues. I have just not read anyone having issues with this. I would really hate to go through the work of disconnecting the RR and LR off the MS8 is not needed.
> I have put a lot of money and time trying to gain low bass notes and clarity my wife's car and previous cars I have owned. Do you think its just the HU or does something need to be wired differently with the MS8? (front input channel only? I'm hoping its not the HU, I'm into the car for awhile and thought the MS8 was the fix.
> Anyone have any thoughts? I would appreciate the help. I don't know too much, but can take your ideas to a car audio shop. Thanks!


If you have easy access to the MS-8, try re-calibrating from the AUX input using a portable player. That way you can narrow down the problem to something before the MS-8 inputs or to the MS-8 and on.


----------



## Rbuller31

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Kudos to JBL Tech support for knowing very little.
> 
> On a non s Thanks for your thoughts. stereo, running the rear channels into MS-8 isn't likely to cause issues. If there's no delay to the rear speakers and the only difference is frequency response, then it doesn't matter. IF there's a bunch of delay, then fixing that just chews up memory in MS-8. That's not the cause of poor bass.
> 
> What is the cause? I don't know. Not enough information. What are the rest of the speakers and at what frequencies and slopes did you cross them over in MS-8's menu?



Thanks for the response. I have alpine type R speakers in the doors and a JL10W3 sub. All my filters are turned off in the amp. The MS8 crossovers are set are at 80 on the speakers. I believe the slopes are at 12. I have tried both slopes at 12 and 24. It just acts like something is limiting the sub from lower hertz. Just gets quieter and muddy the lower the notes. My wife has the same sub in her Ford Explorer and it doesn't have issues. 
It's kind of like a filter on the sub is set at 50hz. Every thing above that sounds good. thanks


----------



## Rbuller31

t3sn4f2 said:


> If you have easy access to the MS-8, try re-calibrating from the AUX input using a portable player. That way you can narrow down the problem to something before the MS-8 inputs or to the MS-8 and on.



I don't have a portable c player to re calibrate today, but I was going to try listening to a song on the ipod plugged directly into the MS8. From my understanding, this should bypass the head unit. Then I'll know, hopefully, if the HU is just not going to allow a full signal. I sure hope this can be resolved. It's so aggravating listen to music and cutting off the low notes that you know are there. Thanks again


----------



## t3sn4f2

Rbuller31 said:


> I don't have a portable c player to re calibrate today, but I was going to try listening to a song on the ipod plugged directly into the MS8. From my understanding, this should bypass the head unit. Then I'll know, hopefully, if the HU is just not going to allow a full signal. I sure hope this can be resolved. It's so aggravating listen to music and cutting off the low notes that you know are there. Thanks again


Yup, an iPod would be a "portable player" . I suggested recalibrating just in case the player you were going to use had some funky processing that the ms-8 could fix. But if you're using an ipod it will not need it and you can try it like you said. Just make sure all the sound settings on it are flat and/or off.


----------



## jdsoldger

Ok, I have tried finding a way to search this thread. But there doesn't seem to be a good way to do it. And I have searched around with no luck.

I am eventually going to be installing rear speakers for Logic 7 in my 2011 Honda Fit. This thing has massive rear pillars (whatever letter they are, there are like 5 pillars on each side of this car) that will be perfect for tossing anything up to an 8" into (I am thinking of using some 5.25 coaxials). So the question is, will installing the rear speakers all the way at the back of the car be beneficial, or just toss them in the rear doors? Is there a good reason to put them all the way at the back, or a good reason not too?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Think of rear fill as something like home surround speakers. They are best behind you and to the sides, at ear level or above, on axis if you can or with good dispersion to the an off axis seating position, and with enough low end and highs to funtion in that application (ie 100-10khz for Logic7). So with that said i think your cars pillars are as an ideal location for rear fill speakers as you could hope for. Wayyyyy better than imounted low and blocked by the seat back in a rear door location. 

You might want to use a coax with a tweeter that can be angle up, if the pillar is angled down that is. But its not entirely neccsesary. 

Many oe surround setup go with those pillar style mounts when possible. Here's a bmw X5 for example. With the tweeter angled vertically onaxis and aimed toward the center of the car as well. 

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv9/t3sn4f2/ECC5503E-7C7D-4EC7-A5A5-B25D2639D852.jpg


----------



## t3sn4f2

Think of rear fill as something like home surround speakers. They are best behind you and to the sides, at ear level or above, on axis if you can or with good dispersion to the an off axis seating position, and with enough low end and highs to function in that application (ie 100-10khz for Logic7). So with that said i think your cars pillars are as an ideal location for rear fill speakers as you could hope for. Wayyyyy better than mounted low and blocked by the seat back in a rear door location. 

You might want to use a coax with a tweeter that can be angle up, if the pillar is angled down that is. But its not entirely necessary. 

Many oe surround setup go with those pillar style mounts when possible. Here's a bmw X5 for example. With the tweeter angled vertically on-axis and aimed toward the center of the car as well.


----------



## jdsoldger

t3sn4f2 said:


> Think of rear fill as something like home surround speakers. They are best behind you and to the sides, at ear level or above, on axis if you can or with good dispersion to the an off axis seating position, and with enough low end and highs to funtion in that application (ie 100-10khz for Logic7). So with that said i think your cars pillars are as an ideal location for rear fill speakers as you could hope for. Wayyyyy better than imounted low and blocked by the seat back in a rear door location.
> 
> You might want to use a coax with a tweeter that can be angle up, if the pillar is angled down that is. But its not entirely neccsesary.
> 
> Many oe surround setup go with those pillar style mounts when possible. Here's a bmw X5 for example. With the tweeter angled vertically onaxis and aimed toward the center of the car as well.


Perfect. That is exactly what I was thinking. I just wasn't sure if Logic 7 (being designed for cars) was designed that way or not. I was planning on fiberglass pods or something. The pillars are almost vertical and a nice set of coaxials will fit no problem.


----------



## dengland

subwoofery said:


> I think Andy suggested that you still try to have your Xover point @ 70Hz-80Hz for your subwoofer and front low (MS-8 settings) + use your Xover on your subwoofer amp @ about 50Hz
> 
> Kelvin


OK. Done correctly this time.

I have an amp feeding a JL 10W3V3, and the MS-8 driving 3.5" Coaxials in the dash (LCR), 6x9 factory Front doors and rear doors.


Settings are :
Subsonic: 20Hz/12dB slope
Sub/Front Cross: 70Hz/24dB slope
Front Lo/Hi Cross: 300Hz/24dB slope
Center Hi Pass: 200Hz/24dB slope
Side Hi Pass: 100Hz/24dB slope
MS-8 Level during calibration: -40
MS-8 Level post calibration: -6
LPF of the sub amp set to 50Hz. (calibration and post calibration)

BLUE trace is the settings immediately above. RED trace is the original one commented on.


----------



## dengland

Thought I would take a look to see if bypassing the HU was any different. I did a sweep using the MS-8 AUX input. I did not think to level match before measuring, so I offset the AUX input graph to align the amplitude at 50Hz.

That graph is here. Green is AUX input on the MS-8










And here it is without an offset.










Based on these two, I would say there is not much difference. So, no real shenanigans going on with the HU.

What does the target curve of the MS-8 look like?

Is this it?



pionkej said:


> *1.) JBL/Andy W. Curve:*
> 
> -20-60hz: +9db
> -60-160hz: Transition to 0
> 160-3khz: Flat (0)
> 3khz+: Gradual Roll-off to -6db @ 20khz
> 
> * Andy has stated this target response is the "ideal response for a small listening environment" with a bump on the low-end to compensate for typical listener preference.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...main-andy%20wehmeyers%20target%20response.jpg


----------



## n_olympios

t3sn4f2 said:


> Think of rear fill as something like home surround speakers. They are best behind you and to the sides, at ear level or above, on axis if you can or with good dispersion to the an off axis seating position, and with enough low end and highs to function in that application (ie 100-10khz for Logic7). So with that said i think your cars pillars are as an ideal location for rear fill speakers as you could hope for. Wayyyyy better than mounted low and blocked by the seat back in a rear door location.
> 
> You might want to use a coax with a tweeter that can be angle up, if the pillar is angled down that is. But its not entirely necessary.
> 
> Many oe surround setup go with those pillar style mounts when possible. Here's a bmw X5 for example. With the tweeter angled vertically on-axis and aimed toward the center of the car as well.


Too right! Here's another example from my car.


----------



## dengland

dengland said:


> What does the target curve of the MS-8 look like?
> 
> Is this it?
> 
> *1.) JBL/Andy W. Curve:*
> 
> -20-60hz: +9db
> -60-160hz: Transition to 0
> 160-3khz: Flat (0)
> 3khz+: Gradual Roll-off to -6db @ 20khz
> 
> * Andy has stated this target response is the "ideal response for a small listening environment" with a bump on the low-end to compensate for typical listener preference.


If I read this correctly and adjust the target settings in the REW I believe BLUE line is the target and the RED is what I measured doing an REW sweep through the HU.











Target curve comes from










Overall shape seems to follow the target with the exception of the 50Hz centered hump/peak. I am at the bottom end of the LPF range for the sub amp. I am also pretty close to the lowest level of the sub amp as well. Not sure I have 15db.


----------



## 14642

LF Rise Start 160
LF rise end 60
LF rise slope (about 12)

HF Fall Slope (about 1.6)

The peak in the bass is that level matching problem. Try the subwoofer crossover in the amp at 50 Hz. Or use the 31-band EQ to reduce it. The rest of the curve will probably flatten out a bit if you make a bunch of measurements near your head placement and average them.


----------



## t3sn4f2

n_olympios said:


> Too right! Here's another example from my car.


That looks awesome!


----------



## n_olympios

Thanks mate.  

Check out the whole story here.


----------



## mocsta

Hi guys,

Running Fronts, Center, Side, Rears + Ported Sub.
Fronts are split through a miniDSP as 2-way.

Regarding Time Alignment in the miniDSP, should I reference the center position or drivers seat?

i.e. 
if drivers seat, the ms delay will be different between left/right.
if center, the ms delay should be the same between left/right.

-------------------------------------
As an aside, my sub is super-boomy - I havent tried to reverse sub phase yet. Would I retune after doing that?

Levels were matched @
Front - 62dB
Side/Rear - 60dB
Sub - 60dB (Subsonic = 30Hz @ 6dB; LP @ 100Hz @ 12dB (80Hz was even more boomy).

Also, when running a sub integration sweep from 20 -> 300Hz, there is definitely an audible SPL drop around the crossover point. I didn't meter it though.


----------



## jdsoldger

mocsta said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Running Fronts, Center, Side, Rears + Ported Sub.
> Fronts are split through a miniDSP as 2-way.
> 
> Regarding Time Alignment in the miniDSP, should I reference the center position or drivers seat?
> 
> i.e.
> if drivers seat, the ms delay will be different between left/right.
> if center, the ms delay should be the same between left/right.
> 
> -------------------------------------
> As an aside, my sub is super-boomy - I havent tried to reverse sub phase yet. Would I retune after doing that?
> 
> 
> 
> Levels were matched @
> Front - 62dB
> Side/Rear - 60dB
> Sub - 60dB (Subsonic = 30Hz @ 6dB; LP @ 100Hz @ 12dB (80Hz was even more boomy).
> 
> Also, when running a sub integration sweep from 20 -> 300Hz, there is definitely an audible SPL drop around the crossover point. I didn't meter it though.


If I were set up with the MiniDSP like that. I would align the mid bass and the tweeter (whichever is further) for each side and let the JBL take care of the alignment for left right and center.


----------



## mocsta

Alight for each side? Im interpretting that as: Right speakers are aligned to left seat + left speakers aligned to right seat?

Is that what you meant?


----------



## jdsoldger

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.







mocsta said:


> Alight for each side? Im interpretting that as: Right speakers are aligned to left seat + left speakers aligned to right seat?
> 
> Is that what you meant?


No. The JBL will align the "speakers" for each seating position and such. I am assumeing you have a midbass and a tweeter for each of the front left and right speakers yes? Since the crossover is being handled with the MiniDSP, you just need to make the left channel look like one speaker and the right channel look like one speaker. So all you have to do is acount for the distance between the midbass and tweeter for each channel. The JBL should take care of aligning for the seats and center and such.


----------



## mocsta

Yes, midbass + tweeter each side.

Agreed: I want the miniDSP to TA the 2 drivers to be "one source" on arrival.
I suppose that answers the question then. 

Do the TA as if it was a one-seat car (i.e drivers side will be delayed to let passenger side arrive (with minor delay to passenger tweeter as its closer than passenger midbass which is "origin/reference"). 

MS8 will then rejig everything to account for center speaker etc.


----------



## roboots21

So .. this is my first post of substance here .. so I hope it's a good one. I made it through a good 75% of this thread, and also read over on the JBL MS-8 FAQ as well and I must saw I have absorbed a lot of information here. Here goes .. 

I recently completed an install in my 2014 Toyota Tundra Double Cab of a decent array of items I think. By no means am I a pro installer, but I am not a n00b either.

I went with the following for my set up, starting from the stock Entune HU. I really like the functionality it provides, but knowing it's limitations was my deciding factor in my install. My list includes:

JBL MS-8 Processor
Alpine MRX-V70 5-Chan. Amp. (60Wx4 @ 4Ohm, 350Wx1 @ 2Ohm)
JL Audio 10TW3 Shallow sub in 0.5 cu/ft. custom underseat sub box
Polk db6501 fronts/db651 rears
Polk db351 center
KnuKoncepts 4G wiring harness/RCAs

I thought I could post up some reasonings and thoughts and overall experience here with the MS-8 and also a few pics of my MS-8 install (as other users have done in the past).

I didn't have a lot of room to mount the MS-8/Amp without going all out behind the seats, so I chose to tie into the factory wiring with stock harnesses and not having to cut into anything. These were direct wires from the rear of the head unit so it would be used for direct input to the MS-8. I utilized stock wiring of the truck for the rear speakers and for the front tweeters (using the stock harness/wiring, mounted in the door sail panels). I ran new wires for the front mids of the 6501 comps and the db351 center. Also being that the floor wasn't flat under the seat, I made a custom mounting board that bolted into the stock underseat amp location. A couple of pics of the MS-8/Amp mounting:





































A shot of the box I build for the shallow sub:










I also permanently mounted the MS-8 in a very visible display spot for me. I didn't want it on the dash or anything and there was a perfect spot behind my shifter, and where it fit, I didn't mind a permanent mount:










My set up for the MS-8 and Amp is as follows:
CH1: Front Left Mid (80Hz - 4KHz)
CH2: Front Right Mid (80Hz - 4KHz)
- both mids amp'd by CH1&2 of MRX-V70 at nominal gain (2V)
CH3: Front Left Tweeter (4KHz HP)
CH4: Front Right Tweeter (4KHz HP)
- both tweets amp'd by CH3&4 of the MRX-V70 at nominal gain (2V)
CH5: Side Left (100Hz HP) MS-8 power
CH6: Side Right (100Hz HP) MS-8 power
CH7: Center (200Hz HP) MS-8 power
CH8: Sub (80Hz LP) - amp'd by MRX-V70 CH5 at nominal gain (2V)

I'm running the db6501's in an active set up. I was going to run them passive as I did in the Tacoma, but I figured this would give me better adjustability to get better front image if I went active and let the MS-8 handle the Xover duties.

My install was all pretty straight forward, and once I hunted down a bad RCA and replaced, I was able to really get into the tuning of the MS-8. At first I just hooked it all up, ran the input calibration and a quick Audio Calibration, but I then disabled it and just listened for a bit with no processing. I only left Logic7 enabled since I have the center speaker, but I wanted to see how the UN-EQ sounded first.

After a week I took a stab at doing the Audio Calibration. At first, no matter what I did, I just could not get it right. I tried a few different settings to see if I could get it to sound right. I tried (per suggestion of several forums, and then the last one right from this thread from Andy W.:
-All channels nominal gain (2V), MS-8 at -30dB - Severely lacked bass (sub/mids)
-All channels gains turned at min, MS-8 at -30dB - Better, but seemed to lack substance from the front, and bass was OVERPOWERING. I think the sub signal sweep was too low and it overcompensated.
-All channel gains nominal (2V), MS-8 at -40dB - Better yet, but still .. lacking midbass.
-Front channels nominal gain (2V), sub channel about 1/4 gain (1V), MS-8 at -35dB - Current settings.

This hit the sweet spot for my truck. I returned the sub amp back to nominal after cal, and I had to add just a little bit of mid-bass (about 2dB to 100Hz-240Hz). I still need to play around with the EQ a little more to see if I can get it sounded just how I like it, but overall I couldn't be happier. There is some SERIOUS front imaging with this set up .. I am still working through some of my go-to songs to see how each and every one sounds .. and so far SO GOOD!

What I have found from all of this is that the MS-8 is VERY powerful. I am amazed at how much this thing can add/cut from the different frequencies which was very apparent in my different attempts at the Audio Calibration. Where I am now, I think I am going to just do some minor EQ adjusting.

The MS-8 is an awesome tool. I knew the Tundra HU was going to need some heavy UN-EQ as it has some heavy bass roll-off on high volume listening, but I really liked the stock BT integration and USB music integration, so I stuck with it. Another big thing for the MS-8 was the AUX In. I will probably end up putting headrest DVD's in at some point, and I can use the AUX IN to pump sound into the truck if necessary. The MS-8 (even with Audio Calibration disabled) sounds excellent. Now that I have the tuning I think set right, I am even happier.

Sorry if I rambled here, but just wanted to share my MS-8 experience. Thanks to those who have posted here in the past with VERY valuable and useful info!


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## mocsta

Hi guys,
I have been through a majority of the 400 pages but am still a bit confused regarding gain setting and sub integration.

Any help would be appreciated.
-------------------
System details:

Headunit (OUT: 2.0Vrmx) -> MS8 (OUT: 2Vrms) -> Amps + Minidsp (IN: 2Vrms, OUT: 0.9Vrms)

Channel 1 - Front Left (XO > 120)
Channel 2 - Front Right (XO > 120)
Channel 3 - Side Left (500 < XO < 2500)
Channel 4 - Side Right (500 < XO < 2500)
Channel 5 - Rear Left (XO > 2500)
Channel 6 - Rear Right (XO > 2500)
Channel 7 - Sub (30< XO < 120)
Channel 8 - Center (XO > 500)

(1) All filters are 24dB (except subsonic @ 12dB)
(2) Front Left/Right are 2-way and handled by miniDSP
Time alignment delay is applied to tweeters in minidsp according to driver seat
(3) All drivers are polarity confirmed
(4) Subwoofer phase is inverted as there was cancellation at the XO point.
(5) MS8 TA performed with front tweeters removed (to TA the front midbass)
(6) Amplifier gains scoped to 2V and then level matched.
(7) Drivers level matched to diagnostic menu as per target curve (tweeters/rear @ 60dB, front midbass @ 64dB, sub @ 69dB)
(8) Head unit set to 24/40 to deliver 2.0Vrms so that MS8 unity gain feeds miniDSP @ max input.

----------------------
*Good points:*
Front stage is INCREDIBLE. There is width, depth, height. No issues here. P.S. I LOVE LOGIC 7

*Negative points:*
(1) I have excessive white noise coming out of all channels. Changing the MS8 master volume does not affect the hissing dB.
I assume this is the noise floor being amplified due to sensitive speakers.
Its coming out of the rear tweeters, so I know its not induced by the miniDSP. 
Head Unit? Is there anything I can do?
The system is already slightly lower volume than I would like.

(2) Subwoofer integration is terrible no matter what I have tried. The sub BOOMS ( i haven't measured, but it feels about 20dB higher than the front stage).
This is regardless of the calibration gain being:
-5dB less than front stage
- equal to front stage
- 5dB higher than front stage.

The only fix I have found is to manually drop the gain on the sub post-calibration, as I don't have enough spare channels to implement the sub as a Front-Lo.

Any advice would be highly appreciated!


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## mocsta

+ I forgot.

Gain matching.

I get matching the source -> pre-amp.

Regarding amp -> speakers, I assume its acceptable to "power" match instead.
i.e. match output voltage to maximum rms voltage speaker can handle.
Then can level match by cutting all drivers down to weakest one.


What i don't get with the above is that I have excessive white noise, yet I havent set the amplifiers to "power" match. Instead the whole system is set to output 2V (which is super low for the amplifiers).


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## kaigoss69

What do you have going on with the sides and rears? Did you mean to make it a 2-way active? It doesn't work that way. Sides and rears must be full range speakers or passive components. They should be high passed at 100Hz, that's it.

As far as the sub goes, why use 120Hz as XO point? Is this because the fronts cannot play any lower? It probably has a natural peak due to the enclosure. Try the amp LP filter to chop off the peak and try to cross a bit lower.

If that doesn't work set the front as 2-way in MS-8 set-up, with NO sub, and use the Front Lo outputs (< 120Hz) for the sub and the Hi outputs (> 120Hz) for your fronts. That way the sub gets EQ'd much better. In any case setting the LP on the sub amp to chop off any peak in the response is a good thing regardless of the configuration you choose. If the peak is at 70Hz though, and you chop it with the LP filter, don't even think about crossing the MS-8 at 120Hz.


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## mocsta

Sides + Rears:
Yes, intent was to run 2-way active. hmmmm, it actually sounds great to me hahaha. But I can do it the way you suggested as I have a second miniDSP in the system not being utilised. This would also free up channels to eq the sub.

Sub:
Originally I EQ sub @ 80Hz and it was extremely boomy. (I bought a mic to do a FR sweep in the sub range, but its still being delivered).
When i EQ @ 100Hz and invert polarity, the sub improved a lot (but was still much higher in output)
I decided to run @ 120Hz as a trial and the sub blended in better again (once the gain was dropped post-cal)


Question: What is the difference between setting a LP filter on the amp to chop response and setting the MS8 to LP at that freq?


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## kaigoss69

The sweeps for the sub run 50-80 Hz iirc and are unaffected by the ms-8 xo setting. So even if you set xo to 50 Hz and there is a peak at 80, your levels will get screwed up.


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## mocsta

kaigoss69 said:


> The sweeps for the sub run 50-80 Hz iirc and are unaffected by the ms-8 xo setting. So even if you set xo to 50 Hz and there is a peak at 80, your levels will get screwed up.


Well that makes sense to me then. Interesting.

I will wait till my Omnimic arrives then, sweep the car for a baseline and then I have a few options on how to proceed.


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## mocsta

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8 uses 50-80Hz to set the level of the sub. If you're using a sealed box that has all of its output in that region or a big peak there, it will reduce the level of the sub and then try to boost the lower bass.
> 
> You may find that you get the results you want if you use the LPF in the sub amp to reduce the bass in that range. Try a 12dB slope at 50Hz on the MS-A5001 and then recalibrate. If you can't hear the sub sweep, then you've gone overboard on the attenuation. You should hear the sweep, but it shouldn't be so loud that it shakes the mirrors.


Kaigoss, good memory 

This explains the boom. My box has a theoretical peak around 40Hz, hence its boosting the lower range. Will let you know how it goes with the sub run as Front Lo.


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## Socalstangman

So I'm tossing around the idea of getting one of these. I have a question regarding setup though.

I have a 2014 Mustang with the Shaker system. Will I be able to run 3 way active? Front tweeters, front mids and front subs in the doors. I'll also have a 10" sub in the trunk.


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## mocsta

Kaigoss,

(1) Good news. Sub is fixed on the F lo. 

(2) I think sub boom was my fault. I had the LP on the sub amp @ 30Hz (thinking it was subsonic). I guses thats why the 50-80Hz was bumped up so high regardless of gain level.
I should try the sub without time alignment on F lo 

(3) Now that I removed the rear TW (and put in active XO with side MB) I can't hear/localise the rear stage like I could before. Not sure if im a fan yet for whatever reason. Could be a time alignment issue between MB/TW. 
Waiting for microphone to arrive to do accurate TA via impulse.

Cheers,


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## kaigoss69

Glad it worked for you. The rears now sound the way they should! In L7 the rears add to the front stage and you should not be able to hear much info coming from behind you, except out of phase stuff, like crowd noise during a concert.


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## fantasy

The other day, my right mid just started having a lot of crackling and distortions. It was perfectly fine one song, then the next song it started having that problem. I thought it was just that specific song, but the problem persisted and didn't go away. 

I swapped out rca cables, checked and retightened speaker connections, changed amp gains and recalibrated, but I still had the problem. 

The thing that finally fixed it was swapping the mids' output connection at the ms8. Instead of having ch1 for the left mid and ch2 for the right mid, I swapped it to ch1 right mid and ch2 left mid. Once I did that and ran the input setup and acoustic calibration, the problem was fixed.


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## Fetus

Just a quick query, does anyone know the impedance of the high level inputs of the MS-8?


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## ankit1986

HI, can you please help decide how to configure my ms-8. I am very new to this so might use wrong terminology - will try to explain as much as I know.

My current setup -

1. Head Unit - avh-x5690bt
2. Front - 2 Way components - Hertz HSK 165
3. Sides - 2 Way components - Rainbow Experience Line E-6.2
4. DD C4C - 4 channel amp - powering - FR, FL, RR, RL
5. DD CM600 - Mono amp powering DDLE300-8" Sub

I wish to upgrade my system to 7.1 using MS-8

I have already bought JBL MS-8, one more pair of Hertz HSK 165 and 4 channel amp.

My plan is to use "Hertz HSK" in sides and shift "Rainbow Experience Line" to rear. I need to buy something for "center channel" - please suggest.

How do I connect this whole setup using MS-8?

My thinking has stopped here -

2 ms-8 channels to front tweeters (remove hertz crossover and let ms-8 take care)
2 ms-8 channels to front mids (remove hertz crossover and let ms-8 take care)
1 channel to sides left (let hertz crossover take care of splitting between mid and tweeter"
1 channel to sides right (let hertz crossover take care of splitting between mid and tweeter"
1 channel to rear left (let rainbow crossover take care of splitting between mid and tweeter"
1 channel to rear right (let rainbow crossover take care of splitting between mid and tweeter"


That use up all my ms-8 channels. How do I connect sub and center now?
Do you suggest any good way to connect everything without loosing on amp and taking maximum advantage of Ms-8?

Really appreciate your help.


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## kaigoss69

^^^ My experience has been to make the system as simple as possible IF you only want a one seat wonder. I have gone from 5.1 to 2.1 and it sounds better now than ever. The MS-8's auto-tune is A LOT better when you have less speakers. If you go 5.1 be ready for mediocre initial results and quite a bit of fiddling around until it sounds good. Some people never get there, and simply give up.

However, IF you want to compromise and have acceptable sound in both front seats, then you are best off putting in a center. Note that this solution is nowhere as good as the one seat wonder, in terms of imaging.

Finally, IF you have critical listeners in the rear seats, then it would make sense to upgrade the sides, but upgrading the rears (assuming they are behind the back seat passengers) would be a waste of money. Any speakers behind the listener(s) can remain OEM (or aftermarket coaxials) as long as there are tweeters used in the system.

As far as your system layout, Andy has said that there is not a big difference between 5.1 and 7.1 so I would use the channels up front for active.


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## ankit1986

kaigoss69 said:


> ^^^ My experience has been to make the system as simple as possible IF you only want a one seat wonder. I have gone from 5.1 to 2.1 and it sounds better now than ever. The MS-8's auto-tune is A LOT better when you have less speakers. If you go 5.1 be ready for mediocre initial results and quite a bit of fiddling around until it sounds good. Some people never get there, and simply give up.
> 
> However, IF you want to compromise and have acceptable sound in both front seats, then you are best off putting in a center. Note that this solution is nowhere as good as the one seat wonder, in terms of imaging.
> 
> Finally, IF you have critical listeners in the rear seats, then it would make sense to upgrade the sides, but upgrading the rears (assuming they are behind the back seat passengers) would be a waste of money. Any speakers behind the listener(s) can remain OEM (or aftermarket coaxials) as long as there are tweeters used in the system.
> 
> As far as your system layout, Andy has said that there is not a big difference between 5.1 and 7.1 so I would use the channels up front for active.


Thanks, appreciate your quick revert.
When you say use channels up front for active, you mean below setup?

2 ms-8 channels to front tweeters (remove hertz crossover and let ms-8 take care)
2 ms-8 channels to front mids (remove hertz crossover and let ms-8 take care)
1 channel to sides left (let hertz crossover take care of splitting between mid and tweeter)
1 channel to sides right (let hertz crossover take care of splitting between mid and tweeter)
1 channel to sub


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## kaigoss69

ankit1986 said:


> Thanks, appreciate your quick revert.
> When you say use channels up front for active, you mean below setup?
> 
> 2 ms-8 channels to front tweeters (remove hertz crossover and let ms-8 take care)
> 2 ms-8 channels to front mids (remove hertz crossover and let ms-8 take care)
> 1 channel to sides left (let hertz crossover take care of splitting between mid and tweeter)
> 1 channel to sides right (let hertz crossover take care of splitting between mid and tweeter)
> 1 channel to sub


Yes, but I would do it slightly different because almost everybody has problems with the sub on its own dedicated MS-8 "sub" channel. You will get better results (less boomy sub and better integrated with front stage), if you go with a 3-way front stage set-up and assign the front lows to the sub. So in your case, select "3-way" front during set-up, then assign the MS-8 RCA outputs as follows:

FL Hi: FL Tweeter
FR Hi: FR Tweeter
FL Mid: FL Mid
FR Mid: FR Mid
*FL Lo: Sub
FR Lo: Sub*

So you end up having two RCA outs for the sub which your amp will end up summing.


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## ankit1986

kaigoss69 said:


> Yes, but I would do it slightly different because almost everybody has problems with the sub on its own dedicated MS-8 "sub" channel. You will get better results (less boomy sub and better integrated with front stage), if you go with a 3-way front stage set-up and assign the front lows to the sub. So in your case, select "3-way" front during set-up, then assign the MS-8 RCA outputs as follows:
> 
> FL Hi: FL Tweeter
> FR Hi: FR Tweeter
> FL Mid: FL Mid
> FR Mid: FR Mid
> *FL Lo: Sub
> FR Lo: Sub*
> 
> So you end up having two RCA outs for the sub which your amp will end up summing.


Ok, that makes sense to me. Will passive crossovers in my 2 way component in sides ruin the whole setup? 

And will not installing a center bring down imaging and over all performance down by a huge margin? 

Thanks


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## kaigoss69

ankit1986 said:


> Ok, that makes sense to me. Will passive crossovers in my 2 way component in sides ruin the whole setup?
> 
> And will not installing a center bring down imaging and over all performance down by a huge margin?
> 
> Thanks



The sides will not but benefit from an active crossover. I believe the center can give you a better center image if your front speakers are in less than ideal locations. I would recommend to start without it and see how it goes.


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## ankit1986

kaigoss69 said:


> The sides will not but benefit from an active crossover. I believe the center can give you a better center image if your front speakers are in less than ideal locations. I would recommend to start without it and see how it goes.



I will definitely go without center once to check how it sounds.

And I have already ordered a pair of Hertz HSK, I am tempted to try one as center. I don't want to cut the dashboard, is there better way to mount it aesthetically? 

In that case in stead of using two channels for sub, I will be using one channel right? How to overcome issues that come with this in Ms-8 setup?

Thanks again


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## 14642

Fetus said:


> Just a quick query, does anyone know the impedance of the high level inputs of the MS-8?


There's a 50 ohm PTC in there to fool factory amps into thinking they have a speaker load.


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## kaigoss69

ankit1986 said:


> I will definitely go without center once to check how it sounds.
> 
> And I have already ordered a pair of Hertz HSK, I am tempted to try one as center. I don't want to cut the dashboard, is there better way to mount it aesthetically?
> 
> In that case in stead of using two channels for sub, I will be using one channel right? How to overcome issues that come with this in Ms-8 setup?
> 
> Thanks again


Can't comment on physical center install. You cannot set MS-8 up to use one midbass only.


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## ankit1986

kaigoss69 said:


> Can't comment on physical center install. You cannot set MS-8 up to use one midbass only.


"almost everybody has problems with the sub on its own dedicated MS-8 "sub" channel"

You saying there is no work around for this? If in case I set up front as 2 way instead of 3 way?

Also for setup with amps - I need Ms-8 to tune everything with no gain from amps and then increase gains to desired level or always run amp with no gain at all?

Thanks


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## ankit1986

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> There's a 50 ohm PTC in there to fool factory amps into thinking they have a speaker load.


HI Andy (tried sending you PM but says your inbox is full),

I have recently bought MS-8 and would really appreciate your help with setting it up correctly.

Below are specifications of things that I have -

2 way component speakers - Hertz HSK 165
Crossover: LO/Hi-pass 3.2kHz at 12/12 dB Oct.
Frequency Range: 40 - 22k Hz

2 way component speakers - Rainbow EL-C6.2
Crossover: LO/Hi-pass 5.2kHz at 12/12 dB Oct.
Frequency Range: 50 Hz – 20 kHz

I have 3 amps (4 channel + 4 channel + 1 channel)


My intention is to get 5.1 setup and want to setup like mentioned below

2 way active front (4 channels from ms-8)
2 way passive center (1 channel from ms-8)
2 way passive sides/rear (2 channels from ms-8)
sub-woofer

My questions are -

How do I figure out crossover for my passive setup in rear. What should I select as crossover when I select rear during setup?

Step by step way to figure out all crossover frequencies.

Really appreciate your help here.

Thanks,
Ankit


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## mocsta

kaigoss69 said:


> ^^^ My experience has been to make the system as simple as possible IF you only want a one seat wonder. I have gone from 5.1 to 2.1 and it sounds better now than ever. The MS-8's auto-tune is A LOT better when you have less speakers. If you go 5.1 be ready for mediocre initial results and quite a bit of fiddling around until it sounds good. Some people never get there, and simply give up.
> 
> However, IF you want to compromise and have acceptable sound in both front seats, then you are best off putting in a center. Note that this solution is nowhere as good as the one seat wonder, in terms of imaging.
> 
> Finally, IF you have critical listeners in the rear seats, then it would make sense to upgrade the sides, but upgrading the rears (assuming they are behind the back seat passengers) would be a waste of money. Any speakers behind the listener(s) can remain OEM (or aftermarket coaxials) as long as there are tweeters used in the system.
> 
> As far as your system layout, Andy has said that there is not a big difference between 5.1 and 7.1 so I would use the channels up front for active.


so... Do you regret buying the ms8? I suppose the main benefit is the quick auto tune.
Surprised to hear the 5.1 is average compared to 2.1. I admit I skimmed the 400 pages but typically everyone said that was the grail to attempt.

Would have saved me A LOT of money if I went for 2.1

Beauty is, it's a quick retune to see and measure if 2.1 is better.


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## kaigoss69

mocsta said:


> so... Do you regret buying the ms8? I suppose the main benefit is the quick auto tune.
> Surprised to hear the 5.1 is average compared to 2.1. I admit I skimmed the 400 pages but typically everyone said that was the grail to attempt.
> 
> Would have saved me A LOT of money if I went for 2.1
> 
> Beauty is, it's a quick retune to see and measure if 2.1 is better.


5.1 is not average, it actually sounds very good. Problem is, as stated above, that it almost never sounds good out of the box. See this thread for proof. 

I've had the MS-8 for around 6 years now and I have no desire to purchase another processor. As long as you give the little box what it wants, you should end up being very happy with the results.


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## SQLnovice

kaigoss69 said:


> 5.1 is not average, it actually sounds very good. Problem is, as stated above, that it almost never sounds good out of the box. See this thread for proof.
> 
> I've had the MS-8 for around 6 years now and I have no desire to purchase another processor. As long as you give the little box what it wants, you should end up being very happy with the results.


The MS-8 is my first processor and I don't see myself switching it out. I'm actually think of getting another one and stashing it away.


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## camfreem7

So I just had the MS-8 installed into my 04 acura TL and the shop jacked it all up. Since during the input setup it says Signal level low at 39 and Signal Noisy at 40 (max) they just skipped it and now it is almost unlistenable. My question is, should I have them hook it up to the RCA jacks instead of the hi-level inputs, and if so do they hook all channels or just FL FR and sub? Also, should they hook up from the pre-amp or post amp signal.

I don't know if it helps but they also decided not to use the factory amp and instead use a 4 channel for my fronts and rears, and power the center and the factory sub exclusively off the MS-8.

I don't know if I will get a reply since this thread seems to be pretty old but I have sunk a lot of money into this and the install and am desperate for help.

Also, incase anyone does read this and reply, I am planning on getting a Sony XAV-W1 HU which has outputs for multichannel 5.1, now I have read that for aftermarket HU I should only have the FL and FR channels hooked to the RCAs of the MS-8. since I will be wanting to listen to multichannel SACDs and DVDs that the Sony plays should all the channels be hooked to the MS-8


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## Ryanu

camfreem7 said:


> So I just had the MS-8 installed into my 04 acura TL and the shop jacked it all up. Since during the input setup it says Signal level low at 39 and Signal Noisy at 40 (max) they just skipped it and now it is almost unlistenable. My question is, should I have them hook it up to the RCA jacks instead of the hi-level inputs, and if so do they hook all channels or just FL FR and sub? Also, should they hook up from the pre-amp or post amp signal.
> 
> I don't know if it helps but they also decided not to use the factory amp and instead use a 4 channel for my fronts and rears, and power the center and the factory sub exclusively off the MS-8.
> 
> I don't know if I will get a reply since this thread seems to be pretty old but I have sunk a lot of money into this and the install and am desperate for help.
> 
> Also, incase anyone does read this and reply, I am planning on getting a Sony XAV-W1 HU which has outputs for multichannel 5.1, now I have read that for aftermarket HU I should only have the FL and FR channels hooked to the RCAs of the MS-8. since I will be wanting to listen to multichannel SACDs and DVDs that the Sony plays should all the channels be hooked to the MS-8


Currently the input to MS-8 is via hi level out from ur headunit? If thats the case, you cant skip the signal level low or signal noise part. U need to ensure signal level is Ok and no noise.


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## ankit1986

camfreem7 said:


> So I just had the MS-8 installed into my 04 acura TL and the shop jacked it all up. Since during the input setup it says Signal level low at 39 and Signal Noisy at 40 (max) they just skipped it and now it is almost unlistenable. My question is, should I have them hook it up to the RCA jacks instead of the hi-level inputs, and if so do they hook all channels or just FL FR and sub? Also, should they hook up from the pre-amp or post amp signal.
> 
> I don't know if it helps but they also decided not to use the factory amp and instead use a 4 channel for my fronts and rears, and power the center and the factory sub exclusively off the MS-8.
> 
> I don't know if I will get a reply since this thread seems to be pretty old but I have sunk a lot of money into this and the install and am desperate for help.
> 
> Also, incase anyone does read this and reply, I am planning on getting a Sony XAV-W1 HU which has outputs for multichannel 5.1, now I have read that for aftermarket HU I should only have the FL and FR channels hooked to the RCAs of the MS-8. since I will be wanting to listen to multichannel SACDs and DVDs that the Sony plays should all the channels be hooked to the MS-8


MS-8 internal amp is 20 W - is it enough for your sub? When you run setup MS-8 brings all channels to same level as the minimum level channel (which in your case is sub). This could be the reason why your overall volume is very low. If it is - then get a mono amp to hook it up to sub - disable center (for testing) and see if it improves over all volume.

And you need just left and right into ms-8. Clear all settings in your HU - no HPF, LPF, EQ etc.

PS - I am just 2 days old to this ms-8 thread and Ms-8 as well, someone can chime in and correct me if am wrong.


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## 14642

ankit1986 said:


> HI Andy (tried sending you PM but says your inbox is full),
> 
> I have recently bought MS-8 and would really appreciate your help with setting it up correctly.
> 
> Below are specifications of things that I have -
> 
> 2 way component speakers - Hertz HSK 165
> Crossover: LO/Hi-pass 3.2kHz at 12/12 dB Oct.
> Frequency Range: 40 - 22k Hz
> 
> 2 way component speakers - Rainbow EL-C6.2
> Crossover: LO/Hi-pass 5.2kHz at 12/12 dB Oct.
> Frequency Range: 50 Hz – 20 kHz
> 
> I have 3 amps (4 channel + 4 channel + 1 channel)
> 
> 
> My intention is to get 5.1 setup and want to setup like mentioned below
> 
> 2 way active front (4 channels from ms-8)
> 2 way passive center (1 channel from ms-8)
> 2 way passive sides/rear (2 channels from ms-8)
> sub-woofer
> 
> My questions are -
> 
> How do I figure out crossover for my passive setup in rear. What should I select as crossover when I select rear during setup?
> 
> Step by step way to figure out all crossover frequencies.
> 
> Really appreciate your help here.
> 
> Thanks,
> Ankit


Sub: 1
Subsonic Filter: 20Hz, 12dB/octave
Sub/Front Crossover: 70Hz/24dB/octave
Front: 2-way
Front Mid/High Crossover: 3.5k
Sides: 1-way
Side Crossover: 120Hz/24dB/octave
Rear: None
Center: 1-way
Center High Pass Crossover: 200Hz/24dB/octave (unless the speaker is a 6" or something like that. Then, cross it over lower.)

Set all the amp gains at about 2V. Set the crossovers in the amplifiers to "off". Turn the crossover frequency on the subwoofer amp to the highest frequency available if it can't be defeated. 

Set MS-8's volume control at -35. Run the sweeps. Turn MS-8's volume control up to -6. Use the radio's volume control. If it isn't loud enough, turn all the amplifier gains up by precisely the same amount.

Done.


----------



## 14642

camfreem7 said:


> So I just had the MS-8 installed into my 04 acura TL and the shop jacked it all up. Since during the input setup it says Signal level low at 39 and Signal Noisy at 40 (max) they just skipped it and now it is almost unlistenable. My question is, should I have them hook it up to the RCA jacks instead of the hi-level inputs, and if so do they hook all channels or just FL FR and sub? Also, should they hook up from the pre-amp or post amp signal.
> 
> I don't know if it helps but they also decided not to use the factory amp and instead use a 4 channel for my fronts and rears, and power the center and the factory sub exclusively off the MS-8.
> 
> I don't know if I will get a reply since this thread seems to be pretty old but I have sunk a lot of money into this and the install and am desperate for help.
> 
> Also, incase anyone does read this and reply, I am planning on getting a Sony XAV-W1 HU which has outputs for multichannel 5.1, now I have read that for aftermarket HU I should only have the FL and FR channels hooked to the RCAs of the MS-8. since I will be wanting to listen to multichannel SACDs and DVDs that the Sony plays should all the channels be hooked to the MS-8


Seems like they took out the factory amp and hooked the output of the head unit up to the high level inputs of MS-8. Oops. 

If you'll answer a few question, I can probably get you going.

1. Is the input of MS-8 connected to the output of the radio or the output of the factory amp? Did they use the high level input or the RCA input?

2. Once you get your sony head unit, just connect the front output and choose the "downmix to 2-channel" in the head unit's menu. MS-8 will play that back in full surround and it'll sound much better than the Dolby decoding in your head unit.

3. I'd suggest using two channels of your amp for the front speakers and the other two for the subwoofer. The rears don't need an amp.

4. Which shop was this in Denver?


----------



## camfreem7

Since Andy's box is full I am posting this here in a desperate hope that he still checks this or that someone else can answer my questions: (Edit: obviously he does still check this)

First of all, my factory radio plays DVD-As, and I am obsessed with them and their multichannel mixes. I know on the first page of the thread it says that DVD-A is not a problem and I should simply defeat the Logic 7 to listen to it. However, someone on the Acura forum said it will kill my DVD-A functionality.

My MS-8 was hooked up incorrectly by the shop because they used the hi level inputs and my head unit isn't powerful enough to do the input setup this way. So on the Acura forum I have read my TL should have just the FL and FR and Sub hooked to the RCA, but wouldn't this kill my DVD-A multichannel functionality? Should I hook up all channels to the RCAs, or I believe I read you post that hooking it to the post-amp rather than pre-amp signal should fix the Signal Level Low problem?

Also, I am planning on installing a Sony XAV-W1 HU which plays SACDs and has 5.1 functionality, since it does so should I hook up all channels to the RCAs even though its an aftermarket HU? As I have read that aftermarket units just need the FR and FL channels hooked to the RCAs. (Edit: Believe you answered this)

Moreover, I was reading something about how the MS8 uses 48/16 as its sample rate, does this mean it will have problems with higher sample rate files like 96/24 or 192/24? What I was reading in your posts was something about the setup CD and it being at 44.1 or something so I wasn't too clear on this.

Lastly, as my MS8 is hooked up now (incorrectly) with Logic 7 on there is barely anything coming from the FL and FR speakers, I just spent $600 on front components so I am hoping this isn't the case when it is hooked up correctly?

I am desperate for help, I have spent $350 that I don't have to have it installed and I really hope I can get it to work and be able to play DVD-As. Any help would be greatly appreciated


----------



## camfreem7

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Seems like they took out the factory amp and hooked the output of the head unit up to the high level inputs of MS-8. Oops.
> 
> If you'll answer a few question, I can probably get you going.
> 
> 1. Is the input of MS-8 connected to the output of the radio or the output of the factory amp? Did they use the high level input or the RCA input?
> 
> 2. Once you get your sony head unit, just connect the front output and choose the "downmix to 2-channel" in the head unit's menu. MS-8 will play that back in full surround and it'll sound much better than the Dolby decoding in your head unit.
> 
> 3. I'd suggest using two channels of your amp for the front speakers and the other two for the subwoofer. The rears don't need an amp.
> 
> 4. Which shop was this in Denver?


Hey Andy Thanks for the response I need all the help I can get and I apologize I did not see your reply before my last post or the one I left in your public profile (my bad). Drive In Auto Sound of County Line Road hooked it up and I am very disappointed in the experience so far.

From what I know they used the hi level outputs of the factory HU, because they said they completely bypassed the factory amp which I though they shouldn't because I would still need to use it to power my factory center channel and factory amp, thinking the 20 watts from the MS-8 would not be enough. But I will definitely use the setup you suggested, with the two channels of my amp going to the front and the other two going to the sub.

So when I get my Sony HU, even if I am listening to 5.1 surround mixes of SACDs or DVD-As I should just have it downmix it to stereo? I suppose I can see the MS-8's surround being better overall for most tracks but some of the multichannel mixes I have heard make great use of the rears for playing separate instruments and voices which really impressed me. However, I will definitely try this out since you certainly seem to know what you are talking about.

Thanks Andy, and if you have time I did post a couple more questions in my last post which I would love to hear your answers to and you can ignore the rest.


----------



## t3sn4f2

camfreem7 said:


> Hey Andy Thanks for the response I need all the help I can get and I apologize I did not see your reply before my last post or the one I left in your public profile (my bad). Drive In Auto Sound of County Line Road hooked it up and I am very disappointed in the experience so far.
> 
> From what I know they used the hi level outputs of the factory HU, because they said they completely bypassed the factory amp which I though they shouldn't because I would still need to use it to power my factory center channel and factory amp, thinking the 20 watts from the MS-8 would not be enough. But I will definitely use the setup you suggested, with the two channels of my amp going to the front and the other two going to the sub.
> 
> So when I get my Sony HU, even if I am listening to 5.1 surround mixes of SACDs or DVD-As I should just have it downmix it to stereo? I suppose I can see the MS-8's surround being better overall for most tracks but some of the multichannel mixes I have heard make great use of the rears for playing separate instruments and voices which really impressed me. However, I will definitely try this out since you certainly seem to know what you are talking about.
> 
> Thanks Andy, and if you have time I did post a couple more questions in my last post which I would love to hear your answers to and you can ignore the rest.


The reason you can't leave any multi channel processing on before the MS-8 is that the MS-8 is only compatible with a full/semifull-range _stereo_ input signal. Of however many stereo channels are needed to achieve it (ie 1,2,3 way input). 

It can't however recombine (ie downmix) a multichannel surround signal back to stereo to be processed. A downmixed to Logic7 processing might recreate enough of what you liked from original mix though.


----------



## t3sn4f2

camfreem7 said:


> Since Andy's box is full I am posting this here in a desperate hope that he still checks this or that someone else can answer my questions: (Edit: obviously he does still check this)
> 
> First of all, my factory radio plays DVD-As, and I am obsessed with them and their multichannel mixes. I know on the first page of the thread it says that DVD-A is not a problem and I should simply defeat the Logic 7 to listen to it. However, someone on the Acura forum said it will kill my DVD-A functionality.
> 
> My MS-8 was hooked up incorrectly by the shop because they used the hi level inputs and my head unit isn't powerful enough to do the input setup this way. So on the Acura forum I have read my TL should have just the FL and FR and Sub hooked to the RCA, but wouldn't this kill my DVD-A multichannel functionality? Should I hook up all channels to the RCAs, or I believe I read you post that hooking it to the post-amp rather than pre-amp signal should fix the Signal Level Low problem?
> 
> Also, I am planning on installing a Sony XAV-W1 HU which plays SACDs and has 5.1 functionality, since it does so should I hook up all channels to the RCAs even though its an aftermarket HU? As I have read that aftermarket units just need the FR and FL channels hooked to the RCAs. (Edit: Believe you answered this)
> 
> *Moreover, I was reading something about how the MS8 uses 48/16 as its sample rate, does this mean it will have problems with higher sample rate files like 96/24 or 192/24? What I was reading in your posts was something about the setup CD and it being at 44.1 or something so I wasn't too clear on this.*
> 
> Lastly, as my MS8 is hooked up now (incorrectly) with Logic 7 on there is barely anything coming from the FL and FR speakers, I just spent $600 on front components so I am hoping this isn't the case when it is hooked up correctly?
> 
> I am desperate for help, I have spent $350 that I don't have to have it installed and I really hope I can get it to work and be able to play DVD-As. Any help would be greatly appreciated


Sample rate _compatibility_ is only a concern in digital to digital interfaces. Once your head unit converts those high resolution formats to analog it will be seen by the ms-8 simply as a analog signal. Output quality from the ms-8 will then be no higher than 16-24bit/48kHz.

Digital on the other hand would use a special circuit to up/down convert to 48kHz since the frequency rate at which the inputted bits are processed would need to match the processors rate. That's different than analog where the bits are being created from an electrical wave of infinite value points.


----------



## 14642

If there's no Downmix to 2--channel option in the Acura head unit, you lose the DVD-A playback. A digital downmix is a relatively simple thing to accomplish, but to try to do an analog downmix AFTER the factory's time alignment and EQ is not...and that's why MS-8 doesn't include it. If there is a downmix option, then Logic 7 will play back the DVD-A in full surround.


----------



## 14642

You can keep the performance of DVD-A and still use your MS-8 by using this program to convert the DVD-A streams to stereo (Downmix). Once you do that, MS-8 can play them back in full surround.

DVD Audio Extractor -- Features


----------



## camfreem7

Awesome, thanks for all the help everyone! I am sending it to the shop to be fixed tomorrow so I need to know for sure what to tell them (Andy please make sure I have this right)

I have heard of that program Andy and will definitely check that out, I have the free trial of DVD-Audio Solo Ultra HD which I believe can also downmix to stereo, will have to double check though.Although I am kind of bummed about the DVD-A and Hi-Res stuff as I am very into better than CD quality sound, I am glad you guys cleared it up and I am sure the benefits of the MS-8 are greater than any benefit I would hear from listening to 96/24 files compared to 44.1/16 CDs.

A couple last clarifications, so with my factory head unit I should tell the shop to hook up just the FR, FL, and Sub channels from the HU to the RCA inputs of the MS-8 correct? And this should fix the signal level problem? Now, I am planning on installing an aftermarket sub and amp, how should this be done with my factory HU and MS-8?

I have been reading in the thread that there is something I should do with my external amps before calibration, should I be turning the gain down and turning all the setting off (High-Pass, Low-pass ect)?

Also, the only mono amp I currently have also has an onboard DSP, I'm imagining this will cause a problem? Should I simply wait unit I can get a new amp to even install the sub/amp?

Lastly, even if I am using a tablet plus external usb DAC into the Aux In of the MS-8 it won't play any higher than 24 bit/48?


----------



## wrager

I did read most of this thread, but have a quick question. Using the MS8 with Nissan Bose (non Nav) HU with external amp. I have the Metra adapter that converts the HU speaker connections to RCA. Should I use this or connect the wires (before the external amp) directly to the MS8 speaker level inputs ?

BTW- I'm using all JBL speakers, just like my theater (JBL Commercial)!


----------



## wrager

wrager said:


> I did read most of this thread, but have a quick question. Using the MS8 with Nissan Bose (non Nav) HU with external amp. I have the Metra adapter that converts the HU speaker connections to RCA. Should I use this or connect the wires (before the external amp) directly to the MS8 speaker level inputs ?
> 
> BTW- I'm using all JBL speakers, just like my theater (JBL Commercial)!


I did some further searching. It seems that since I have an external factory amp Andy suggests using the RCA inputs on the MS8. Concur? Here's his post:

_The difference between a pre-amp signal and a speaker level signal is current delivery. A pre-amp signal may be 4V, 9V, 1V, 500mV, but it won't deliver enough current to drive a speaker.

The current CAPABILITY has nothing to do with integrating a processor into your car because the input IMPEDANCE of the processor is what tells the radio to deliver current.

OEM systems may include speaker-capable outputs in the radio that drive the OEM amplifier so that the car maker doesn't have to use a different radio for the basic audio system (without the amp). IN that scenario, sometimes removing the data connection to the factory amplifier changes the software in the radio to remap the volume control. I don't know if that's the case in this car.

This should be relatively straightforward with MS-8. *If you will use the signal that cones from the radio, connect it to the Line Level (RCA) inputs of MS-8.* You only need the front outputs. _


----------



## fantasy

wrager said:


> I did some further searching. It seems that since I have an external factory amp Andy suggests using the RCA inputs on the MS8. Concur? Here's his post:
> 
> _The difference between a pre-amp signal and a speaker level signal is current delivery. A pre-amp signal may be 4V, 9V, 1V, 500mV, but it won't deliver enough current to drive a speaker.
> 
> The current CAPABILITY has nothing to do with integrating a processor into your car because the input IMPEDANCE of the processor is what tells the radio to deliver current.
> 
> OEM systems may include speaker-capable outputs in the radio that drive the OEM amplifier so that the car maker doesn't have to use a different radio for the basic audio system (without the amp). IN that scenario, sometimes removing the data connection to the factory amplifier changes the software in the radio to remap the volume control. I don't know if that's the case in this car.
> 
> This should be relatively straightforward with MS-8. *If you will use the signal that cones from the radio, connect it to the Line Level (RCA) inputs of MS-8.* You only need the front outputs. _


Did you get it to work yet? When I was hooking up my MS8, I was using the speaker level inputs at first, but I kept on getting "signal low" during the initial setup (was using stock HU). Easy fix was just getting a speaker wire to RCA adapter. This was what I used: Rockford Fosgate RFI2SW Speaker Line High Level Input To Male RCA


----------



## fantasy

I'm running front 2-ways, rears, one sub, and no center, with Logic 7 on. Is the "center" position supposed to change if I turn Logic 7 off?

What's the difference between driver and front seat selections? Everytime I select front, the driver's seat always sound better than the passenger's seat. When sitting in the passenger seat, it seems as though the music is coming straight off the passenger's A pillar. It sounds very compact. I've done alot of calibrations and I always get the same result.


----------



## kaigoss69

^^^ Not sure I completely understand but the amp gains should be almost identical for the two tweeters to match, unless there is something screwed up. What causes you to set the left tweeter gain so high?


----------



## fantasy

kaigoss69 said:


> ^^^ Not sure I completely understand but the amp gains should be almost identical for the two tweeters to match, unless there is something screwed up. What causes you to set the left tweeter gain so high?


Disregard that lol.


----------



## camfreem7

Ok so the shop is supposedly finishing my car today (after having it for 2 days just to plug it some RCAs, don't get me started) and they told me I needed an LC2 to convert the speaker level outputs into RCAs to go into the MS8 inputs. I had told them they just need the cheap little converter but they said that wouldn't work which I am pretty sure is false.

Basically, with the FL and FR speaker level outs from my HU into the LC2, into MS8 channels 1 and 2 and it should be all good right? They are also supposed to.hook up a sub and sub amp and that should be easy, just hook it up to the MS8 output channel 6,7, or 8 correct?

If anyone is wondering I described my situation on the last page if that helps and any reassurances right now would really help me out because I am picking it up tomorrow and really hope it works.


----------



## 14642

That makes no sense. ^^^^^


----------



## t3sn4f2

camfreem7 said:


> Ok so the shop is supposedly finishing my car today (after having it for 2 days just to plug it some RCAs, don't get me started) and they told me I needed an LC2 to convert the speaker level outputs into RCAs to go into the MS8 inputs. I had told them they just need the cheap little converter but they said that wouldn't work which I am pretty sure is false.
> 
> Basically, with the FL and FR speaker level outs from my HU into the LC2, into MS8 channels 1 and 2 and it should be all good right? They are also supposed to.hook up a sub and sub amp and that should be easy, just hook it up to the MS8 output channel 6,7, or 8 correct?
> 
> If anyone is wondering I described my situation on the last page if that helps and any reassurances right now would really help me out because I am picking it up tomorrow and really hope it works.


You don't need a converter. The ms-8 has speaker level inputs and it's own converter and summing stage. You'd be better of doing things yourself using the ms-8 manual than leaving it up to them.


----------



## camfreem7

Yeah I am taking it from them right now and going to just do it myself, I just have no experience doing this kind of stuff and didn't want to mess my car up but damn with all the research and stuff I've done I'm pretty sure I could have just done it myself. Well thanks for all the help guys hopefully I wont be back in this thread because it will work.


----------



## camfreem7

Alright guys got it to pretty much work just one last thing I really need your help 

It seems that the information that should be sent to my front speakers is going to my rears and visa versa.

Now when it has me set up which speakers are on what channel and then it sends pink noise to each speaker to make sure its correct it all seems correct so I don't know what to do. But it very clearly seems that the information is switched. 

If this gets fixed everything will be perfect, once I learn what crossovers to use and all that stuff that is. Any help would be greatly appreciated


----------



## Ryanu

camfreem7 said:


> Alright guys got it to pretty much work just one last thing I really need your help
> 
> It seems that the information that should be sent to my front speakers is going to my rears and visa versa.
> 
> Now when it has me set up which speakers are on what channel and then it sends pink noise to each speaker to make sure its correct it all seems correct so I don't know what to do. But it very clearly seems that the information is switched.
> 
> If this gets fixed everything will be perfect, once I learn what crossovers to use and all that stuff that is. Any help would be greatly appreciated


Are u sure that u didnt mess up the assigning the channel during initial setup? i.e. ch1 left tweet, ch2 right tweet etc?


----------



## JVD240

Yep. Wiring issue.


----------



## camfreem7

Ryanu said:


> Are u sure that u didnt mess up the assigning the channel during initial setup? i.e. ch1 left tweet, ch2 right tweet etc?


I am going to go back and do it again but when I switched for instance FL low with Side Left (my rears show up as sides) what happens when I send the pink noise to what is listed as Front Left it comes out of the front left tweeter and the Rear left speaker. 

Despite this, I am going to see how this sounds but it seems to me it will still be messed up for a few reasons I don't have time to try to explain in my non technical newbie language


----------



## 14642

Either reassign the channels or move the RCAs.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Does anyone know what happens to the low range information that is crossed out from the Logic 7 rear fill? Does it go to the sub? Midbass then sub like the other channels? Or is it simply dropped out?


----------



## camfreem7

So I finally got it to sound pretty damn good, and I just want to thank everybody here for all their help and Andy W. especially for all the work he put into this product I am very impressed with it even though I have only gotten it to sound probably 70% as good as it can.

For anyone who may be having the same problem, the reason it seemed like my rear fill was coming out of my fronts and my fronts coming from my rears is because I have 70 watts going to my fronts and only the 20 watts from the MS-8 to my center. So I am assuming that the auto EQ was simply turning my fronts way down to compensate for how low my center was.

I actually suspected this may be the problem because I had seen Andy suggest turning the gain on any external amps all the way down before calibration but being a Newbie to all this I didn't even know how to turn down the gain on my particular amp and it was mounted somewhere where I couldn't easily see the sides of it.

But Alas, I turned down the gain and viola much much better. As a huge fan of DVD-A and surround sound I am loving the Logic 7 and it really surprised me how well it mimics the actual 5.1 mixes I have heard.

The volume is still a little low even when turned up all the way and the midbass is a little muddy but I am sure that can be fixed.

A couple final questions if you all aren't sick of me:

Andy, even though I have taken just the FL and FR from my factory HU converted to RCAs by an LC2 into the MS-8 inputs, I still need to do the Input Setup correct? When I do it, it says OK OK OK only at max volume (40) on the HU, is this a bad thing? And should I always keep the HU volume at max and just adjust the volume on the MS-8? Because I actually start to get some distortion when I turn it up to 38-40.

For all the hate this thing gets by some people I think it is a truly remarkable piece of technology and I am willing to bet the only people hating on it are the ones who have it hooked up improperly.


----------



## tbomb

I never saw why you are using an lc2.....should be no need


----------



## camfreem7

tbomb said:


> I never saw why you are using an lc2.....should be no need


I know and that's what I told them when they said I needed one, I said I would only need the like $7 LOC and they said that something to do with the voltage or impedance it wouldn't work and my dumb ass trusted them, they are supposed to be the professionals after all.

However once I got here and confirmed that I didn't need it they had already put it in, mind you I had been waiting almost a week for them to fix it and over a month to get it installed and I was getting impatient so rather than have them hold my car another day to take it out I just said screw it as long as the damn thing works just give me my car back. I paid the price for my impatience though ($75)

Anyway, even though it is sounding pretty good at certain volume levels there are still some issues I mentioned above, but I will clarify a bit. I turned the gain all the way down on my 4 channel before calibration then turned it up about halfway after, now it still doesn't get loud enough at full volume and even distorts pretty bad towards maximum volume, should I just re do the calibration and see if that helps? And my Midbass is very muddy, much worse than stock, I'm open to any suggestions


----------



## JVD240

camfreem7 said:


> I know and that's what I told them when they said I needed one, I said I would only need the like $7 LOC and they said that something to do with the voltage or impedance it wouldn't work and my dumb ass trusted them, they are supposed to be the professionals after all.
> 
> However once I got here and confirmed that I didn't need it they had already put it in, mind you I had been waiting almost a week for them to fix it and over a month to get it installed and I was getting impatient so rather than have them hold my car another day to take it out I just said screw it as long as the damn thing works just give me my car back. I paid the price for my impatience though ($75)
> 
> Anyway, even though it is sounding pretty good at certain volume levels there are still some issues I mentioned above, but I will clarify a bit. I turned the gain all the way down on my 4 channel before calibration then turned it up about halfway after, now it still doesn't get loud enough at full volume and even distorts pretty bad towards maximum volume, should I just re do the calibration and see if that helps? And my Midbass is very muddy, much worse than stock, I'm open to any suggestions


I don't think your shop knows what they are doing.

Remove the LC2.

Run your front L/R directly into the MS8 and then run the calibration.

Additionally, you should be setting your amps to accept the appropriate voltage from the MS8. I forget what it is but it's stated in the manual. Maybe 2V... The MS8 will figure the rest out.


----------



## t3sn4f2

camfreem7 said:


> Hey Andy Thanks for the response I need all the help I can get and I apologize I did not see your reply before my last post or the one I left in your public profile (my bad). Drive In Auto Sound of County Line Road hooked it up and I am very disappointed in the experience so far.
> 
> *From what I know they used the hi level outputs of the factory HU, because they said they completely bypassed the factory amp which I though they shouldn't because I would still need to use it to power my factory center channel and factory amp, thinking the 20 watts from the MS-8 would not be enough. But I will definitely use the setup you suggested, with the two channels of my amp going to the front and the other two going to the sub.*
> 
> So when I get my Sony HU, even if I am listening to 5.1 surround mixes of SACDs or DVD-As I should just have it downmix it to stereo? I suppose I can see the MS-8's surround being better overall for most tracks but some of the multichannel mixes I have heard make great use of the rears for playing separate instruments and voices which really impressed me. However, I will definitely try this out since you certainly seem to know what you are talking about.
> 
> Thanks Andy, and if you have time I did post a couple more questions in my last post which I would love to hear your answers to and you can ignore the rest.


If you have a external factory amp that was bypassed by tapping into the "line level" balanced outputs of that head unit, then you do need or at the very least might benefit from adding the LC2 line driver. I/we got confused before and told you didn't need it because you used the term "high level" outputs in earlier post IIRC. That implies head unit amplified system without an external amp. There you would not need the LC2 and would feed the high/speaker level outputs from the head unit straight into the ms-8's high/speaker level inputs.

What you want to do is lower the master volume to 30 or maybe a little higher and then raise the gains on the lc2 in order to meet the ms-8 minimum rca input level needs (ie ok,ok,ok).

Also make sure that you aren't running ANY speakers from the OE amp. You don't want to mix that source with the ms-8 source. Only the ms-8 should be playing your music.


----------



## camfreem7

t3sn4f2 said:


> If you have a external factory amp that was bypassed by tapping into the "line level" balanced outputs of that head unit, then you do need or at the very least might benefit from adding the LC2 line driver. I/we got confused before and told you didn't need it because you used the term "high level" outputs in earlier post IIRC. That implies head unit amplified system without an external amp. There you would not need the LC2 and would feed the high/speaker level outputs from the head unit straight into the ms-8's high/speaker level inputs.
> 
> What you want to do is lower the master volume to 30 or maybe a little higher and then raise the gains on the lc2 in order to meet the ms-8 minimum rca input level needs (ie ok,ok,ok).
> 
> Also make sure that you aren't running ANY speakers from the OE amp. You don't want to mix that source with the ms-8 source. Only the ms-8 should be playing your music.


Awesome thank you and my bad about that confusing the high level/line level stuff, I think we are on the same page now and it good to know that the LC2 was not totally unnecessary.

Here is another problem with the shop, they did not tell me I could adjust the gain on the LC2 (I did look up a little info on it but should have done more research) this might help me out because as of right now the MS8 only says Ok Ok Ok when my HU is at max volume (40).

As far as I know nothing is currently running of the factory amp, at least that's what they told me when they first installed it I will have to double check because it is obvious they are not the best in the business.

I am really glad you told me about LC2 I am relieved to find out there is something more I can do because it still is not sounding right and now I am optimistic about getting the sound I want. I love this forum


----------



## t3sn4f2

camfreem7 said:


> Awesome thank you and my bad about that confusing the high level/line level stuff, I think we are on the same page now and it good to know that the LC2 was not totally unnecessary.
> 
> Here is another problem with the shop, they did not tell me I could adjust the gain on the LC2 (I did look up a little info on it but should have done more research) this might help me out because as of right now the MS8 only says Ok Ok Ok when my HU is at max volume (40).
> 
> As far as I know nothing is currently running of the factory amp, at least that's what they told me when they first installed it I will have to double check because it is obvious they are not the best in the business.
> 
> I am really glad you told me about LC2 I am relieved to find out there is something more I can do because it still is not sounding right and now I am optimistic about getting the sound I want. I love this forum


Also Check to make sure they did in fact bypass the factory amp. I ask because i now see that the lc2 only accepts high voltage inputs only typically seen in amplfied speaker outputs. My bad, I thought it was a line driver as well. I dont see how its possible to get that much voltage from it if the headunit is not amped or they didnt tap into the oe amp


----------



## camfreem7

t3sn4f2 said:


> Also Check to make sure they did in fact bypass the factory amp. I ask because i now see that the lc2 only accept speaker level inputs in order to put out a high enough voltage for the ms8 rca input. My bad, I thought it was a line driver as well. I dont see how its possible to get that much voltage from the non amped head unit output.


OK so they should have taken the pre-amp signal directly from the head unit, which would be speaker level inputs into the LC2 correct? And if they did do it correctly I should turn my HU volume down to around 30 and then adjust the gain on the LC2 until the MS8 tells me the signal is good correct?

If it weren't -5 here in Denver I would walk out of work and go do this right now but its going to have to wait until the morning and I will let you know how this works


----------



## t3sn4f2

camfreem7 said:


> OK so they should have taken the pre-amp signal directly from the head unit, which would be speaker level inputs into the LC2 correct? And if they did do it correctly I should turn my HU volume down to around 30 and then adjust the gain on the LC2 until the MS8 tells me the signal is good correct?
> 
> If it weren't -5 here in Denver I would walk out of work and go do this right now but its going to have to wait until the morning and I will let you know how this works


yeah that part is correct, but before you go any further look and see exactly what they did. Then we can go from there.


----------



## wrager

I am up and running. I converted my factory line output Fr/Fl/Sub) to RCA's using the radioshack non solder pieces. I get a good signal at a little more than 1/2 volume on the head unit. It doesn't play very loud unless I crank up the MS8, then tons of distortion to the front mids. I'm going to turn down the amp gains (MRX-V70) and re-calibrate. One question. Does it matter whether I used the Sub pre or let the MS8 derive it from fronts? Is one method better?


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> Does anyone know what happens to the low range information that is crossed out from the Logic 7 rear fill? Does it go to the sub? Midbass then sub like the other channels? Or is it simply dropped out?


Mixed in with the sub. Here's how bass management works:

Everything in the center below the center channel high pass is sent to the front left and right. Everything in the front below the front high pass filter is sent to the sub. Everything below the sides (and rear) high pass filter is sent to the sub.


----------



## wrager

Hope Andy sees this. It is really wacked. My right rear speaker does not produce any sound. I used the factory wiring through the door, then spliced in wires to the MS8 #6 output wires. In attempting to diagnose it, I disconnected my splice and hooked the wires up to my garage receiver. The installed door speakers played loud and clear. So I grabbed an extra speaker laying around and connected it to the MS8 #6 wires (output) and this speaker also played fine. This is crazy! Can anybody explain this?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Mixed in with the sub. Here's how bass management works:
> 
> Everything in the center below the center channel high pass is sent to the front left and right. Everything in the front below the front high pass filter is sent to the sub. Everything below the sides (and rear) high pass filter is sent to the sub.


Ah ok. And to expand a little on my initial question......what if the rear driver/install characteristics forces you to use a highpass well above the sub low pass setting (say 200Hz). Will the sub still get that higher range on top of it normal sub range. Or will it drop it in that case.


----------



## dengland

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Mixed in with the sub. Here's how bass management works:
> 
> Everything in the center below the center channel high pass is sent to the front left and right. Everything in the front below the front high pass filter is sent to the sub. Everything below the sides (and rear) high pass filter is sent to the sub.


Thanks for that. I had wondered.

One more clarification ...

Does the steering (of center to left and right) follow the crossovers frequencies?

If center is crossed at 200 and Front Hi/lo is 150, will it steer the 150-200 to front high, freq above the sub/front cross to Front low, and lower ones to the sub? (Front 2 way active, Center 1 way)

Early on I struggled thinking I needed to get as low as possible out of the center. 

Thanks


----------



## t3sn4f2

dengland said:


> Thanks for that. I had wondered.
> 
> One more clarification ...
> 
> Does the steering (of center to left and right) follow the crossovers frequencies?
> 
> If center is crossed at 200 and Front Hi/lo is 150, will it steer the 150-200 to front high, freq above the sub/front cross to Front low, and lower ones to the sub? (Front 2 way active, Center 1 way)
> 
> Early on I struggled thinking I needed to get as low as possible out of the center.
> 
> Thanks


yeah

"Everything in the center *below *the center channel high pass is sent to the front left and right"


----------



## Abrasive

Hopefully, this is the right place for this troubleshooting question.
I just installed the amps and ms-8 into my truck, but the ms-8 doesn't seem to be turning on (?), and I have no display. Here's a quick breakdown:
2013 F150 with nav and sony stereo. 
-Spliced the wires coming out of the factory amp (except the center channel) and ran those into the MS-8. 
-RCAs running out from the MS-8 to the sub amp (channels 7 and 8) and 4 channel amp (channels 1, 2,3 and 4) for front speakers (active fronts). 
-Rear speakers running from internal MS-8 amp on channel 5 and 6
-8 ga power and ground wires to MS-8
-0 ga Power for everything is coming from an auxiliary battery in the box of the truck into a 3-way dist block (Battery tested at 13.8v with a multi), then out to each component.
-Grounds going to a dist block, then 0 ga to the bolt connecting the rear seat to the truck. Testing it with a multimeter shows I have continuity.
-Remote coming from an add-a-fuse from the fuseblock on a circuit that works turns on as intended. Remote goes directly to the MS-8, then 2 remote wires connected to the REM OUT on the MS-8 going to the sub amp and 4 channel amp.

I only turned the system on long enough to determine there was a problem and do some very preliminary troubleshooting.

I'm getting a blue light from the MS-8.
Both amps are showing the appropriate happy lights (green/blue).

No display from the MS-8.
No audio from anything other than the center channel which is still hooked up to the factory amp.
MS-8 making a bit of a high pitch whine, but I'm pretty sure that's due to the obscene weather today (-10*F), as it wasn't making any noticeable noise last night when I first got it powered on (I was in a heated garage last night).

Thoughts?

I've tested the ground and power to make sure they're hooked up correctly and have continuity, and everything looks good. I've heard that the display input can be....delicate. It's going to be a real pain in the ass to pull the MS-8 out and try to service the board, so I want to make sure I haven't missed anything first.


----------



## camfreem7

Another question, and i am sure using the search function would yield me the answer but this thread is so big searching for something brings up far too many results. I am having my Focal ps165 FXs installed today and was wondering what should do with the crossovers that come with it, I know the MS-8 handles the crossover settings for each speaker so will the crossover settings what come with the speakers get in the way of that.

Basically, is there like an off setting on the external crossovers, or do I set them to match the MS-8 settings? Keep in mind I am a newbie...


----------



## JVD240

Abrasive said:


> Hopefully, this is the right place for this troubleshooting question.
> I just installed the amps and ms-8 into my truck, but the ms-8 doesn't seem to be turning on (?), and I have no display. Here's a quick breakdown:
> 2013 F150 with nav and sony stereo.
> -Spliced the wires coming out of the factory amp (except the center channel) and ran those into the MS-8.
> -RCAs running out from the MS-8 to the sub amp (channels 7 and 8) and 4 channel amp (channels 1, 2,3 and 4) for front speakers (active fronts).
> -Rear speakers running from internal MS-8 amp on channel 5 and 6
> -8 ga power and ground wires to MS-8
> -0 ga Power for everything is coming from an auxiliary battery in the box of the truck into a 3-way dist block (Battery tested at 13.8v with a multi), then out to each component.
> -Grounds going to a dist block, then 0 ga to the bolt connecting the rear seat to the truck. Testing it with a multimeter shows I have continuity.
> -Remote coming from an add-a-fuse from the fuseblock on a circuit that works turns on as intended. Remote goes directly to the MS-8, then 2 remote wires connected to the REM OUT on the MS-8 going to the sub amp and 4 channel amp.
> 
> I only turned the system on long enough to determine there was a problem and do some very preliminary troubleshooting.
> 
> I'm getting a blue light from the MS-8.
> Both amps are showing the appropriate happy lights (green/blue).
> 
> No display from the MS-8.
> No audio from anything other than the center channel which is still hooked up to the factory amp.
> MS-8 making a bit of a high pitch whine, but I'm pretty sure that's due to the obscene weather today (-10*F), as it wasn't making any noticeable noise last night when I first got it powered on (I was in a heated garage last night).
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> I've tested the ground and power to make sure they're hooked up correctly and have continuity, and everything looks good. I've heard that the display input can be....delicate. It's going to be a real pain in the ass to pull the MS-8 out and try to service the board, so I want to make sure I haven't missed anything first.


Sounds like a connector/cable issue on the screen.

The whine... hard to say until you have it all up and running.


camfreem7 said:


> Another question, and i am sure using the search function would yield me the answer but this thread is so big searching for something brings up far too many results. I am having my Focal ps165 FXs installed today and was wondering what should do with the crossovers that come with it, I know the MS-8 handles the crossover settings for each speaker so will the crossover settings what come with the speakers get in the way of that.
> 
> Basically, is there like an off setting on the external crossovers, or do I set them to match the MS-8 settings? Keep in mind I am a newbie...


You(or installer) should be running individual lines for each mid/tweeter(so 4 total for this set). The supplied Focal crossover should be omitted.


----------



## camfreem7

JVD240 said:


> You(or installer) should be running individual lines for each mid/tweeter(so 4 total for this set). The supplied Focal crossover should be omitted.


****... While I was waiting for a reply I called them and they said they are using the crossovers that come with the speaker and that's the way it should be, I even went to a different place that actually sells the MS-8 hoping they would know what they are doing. So my car is already done what can I do to mitigate this or do I just need them to omit the crossover?


----------



## JVD240

camfreem7 said:


> ****... While I was waiting for a reply I called them and they said they are using the crossovers that come with the speaker and that's the way it should be, I even went to a different place that actually sells the MS-8 hoping they would know what they are doing. So my car is already done what can I do to mitigate this or do I just need them to omit the crossover?


That's the way it should be?... I guess that's the way it CAN be.

It's not the end of the world but it seems like a waste to not utilize the MS8 to its full potential. The shop should have thought the same.

There might be reasons for their choice. Just ask them. They probably won't like it if you say "some guy on the internet told me I shouldn't use the passive crossovers" though. Lol.

But seriously. Haha. I wouldn't use the passives. What vehicle is it going in? Speaker locations?


----------



## t3sn4f2

camfreem7 said:


> ****... While I was waiting for a reply I called them and they said they are using the crossovers that come with the speaker and that's the way it should be, I even went to a different place that actually sells the MS-8 hoping they would know what they are doing. So my car is already done what can I do to mitigate this or do I just need them to omit the crossover?


In order to drop the passives you need to run two sets of cables to the front. one for the tweeters, one for the woofers. Then you'll need 4 available amp channels. You should also install a capacitor in series with the tweeters in order to protect them from any thumps, amp failures, or slip ups in DSP crossoever settings. this is something passives do inherently. 

Turn off all crossovers on the amps. 

With that the ms-8 can now completely tune each channel individually without having to deal with whatever alterations from base normal the passives were performing. It can also now time align the tweeters and woofers independently. 

Set the ms-8 to 2 way plus sub and use a crossover point of 3.2-3.5kHz/24db between the tweeter and woofer.

Two of these caps will do.

Dayton Audio DMPC-20 20uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor


----------



## t3sn4f2

JVD240 said:


> That's the way it should be?... I guess that's the way it CAN be.
> 
> It's not the end of the world but it seems like a waste to not utilize the MS8 to its full potential. The shop should have thought the same.
> 
> There might be reasons for their choice. Just ask them. They probably won't like it if you say "some guy on the internet told me I shouldn't use the passive crossovers" though. Lol.
> 
> But seriously. Haha. I wouldn't use the passives. What vehicle is it going in? Speaker locations?


x2, they probably saw he is a beginner and gave him a plug and play recommendation. Also to protect themselves and the speakers since you can easily damage something going fully active if you don't know what you're doing. And the MS-8 certainly put the power to do that in the owners hands.


----------



## JVD240

Could also just use the onboard amp of the MS8.

Cabling depends on the vehicle I suppose. 

Just odd that the installer wouldn't ask more questions... which would probably result in an upsell. Lol.


----------



## fantasy

Abrasive said:


> Hopefully, this is the right place for this troubleshooting question.
> I just installed the amps and ms-8 into my truck, but the ms-8 doesn't seem to be turning on (?), and I have no display. Here's a quick breakdown:
> 2013 F150 with nav and sony stereo.
> -Spliced the wires coming out of the factory amp (except the center channel) and ran those into the MS-8.
> -RCAs running out from the MS-8 to the sub amp (channels 7 and 8) and 4 channel amp (channels 1, 2,3 and 4) for front speakers (active fronts).
> -Rear speakers running from internal MS-8 amp on channel 5 and 6
> -8 ga power and ground wires to MS-8
> -0 ga Power for everything is coming from an auxiliary battery in the box of the truck into a 3-way dist block (Battery tested at 13.8v with a multi), then out to each component.
> -Grounds going to a dist block, then 0 ga to the bolt connecting the rear seat to the truck. Testing it with a multimeter shows I have continuity.
> -Remote coming from an add-a-fuse from the fuseblock on a circuit that works turns on as intended. Remote goes directly to the MS-8, then 2 remote wires connected to the REM OUT on the MS-8 going to the sub amp and 4 channel amp.
> 
> I only turned the system on long enough to determine there was a problem and do some very preliminary troubleshooting.
> 
> I'm getting a blue light from the MS-8.
> Both amps are showing the appropriate happy lights (green/blue).
> 
> No display from the MS-8.
> No audio from anything other than the center channel which is still hooked up to the factory amp.
> MS-8 making a bit of a high pitch whine, but I'm pretty sure that's due to the obscene weather today (-10*F), as it wasn't making any noticeable noise last night when I first got it powered on (I was in a heated garage last night).
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> I've tested the ground and power to make sure they're hooked up correctly and have continuity, and everything looks good. I've heard that the display input can be....delicate. It's going to be a real pain in the ass to pull the MS-8 out and try to service the board, so I want to make sure I haven't missed anything first.


Yeah I also think it's a problem with the display or it's connector. You're not hearing any audio because I don't think it plays unless you go through the initial setup.


----------



## fantasy

And in case you rushed it and didn't pay attention, make sure you plugged into the display port and not the headphone port.


----------



## Abrasive

Thanks folks, I got it solved. The problem was that I'm an idiot. Between you and I, that often tends to be the problem...

The ms8 was mounted on the back wall and I had limited access to the display port. Once I took it off, I realized that the cable needed to be clocked just so in order to get it to seat properly. Display is now working. Now on to fixing my next screw up. Haha


----------



## fantasy

I got in my car this morning to go to work and had no sound coming from my front mids for the whole 45 mins drive. I checked the mids' amp and it had power. I even stopped and restarted to my car once. I just went outside to check it and it's fine now though. 

I've read that cold weather gives the remote/display problems (mine does). Could it be that? It was like 20 degrees this morning when I left and it's about 40 now.


----------



## camfreem7

Ok thanks fellas, I actually did tell them "I read online that the Focal crossover should be omitted and I should use the MS-8 to do the crossovers" when I picked it up ha. Their response was "yeah its called bi-amping but we don't really recommend it". I definitely want to get the most out of the MS-8 so I am going to try to get them to do the active setup but0000000 a few clarifying questions. Since JVD240 asked about my setup here it is:

2004 Acura TL, woofers are in the bottom of the door, tweets in the dash corner by the windshield.
Focal ps165 FX up front
PHD 4" coaxial center
Stock rears (need to install my PHD 6.1 FB Coaxials)
Boston Acoustics G5 10" (also have the GTR passive radiator but need the right box until I put it in with the sub)
JL Audio XJ 360/4
Alpine monoblock (took it from my brother don't know the model)

So to go active, would I need to use all 4 channels of my JL for the woofers and tweets or power the tweets off the MS-8? 

Also, I am thinking of buying an Xtant 1.1 amp for my center which would give it 100 watts, though I wondering if giving my center more power than my fronts would cause a problem with the MS-8s auto-eq?

Which brings me to another possibly stupid question. does the MS-8 add 20 watts per channel if you are using external amps or does it only use the 20 watts if you are just powering that channel off the MS-8


----------



## camfreem7

fantasy said:


> I got in my car this morning to go to work and had no sound coming from my front mids for the whole 45 mins drive. I checked the mids' amp and it had power. I even stopped and restarted to my car once. I just went outside to check it and it's fine now though.
> 
> I've read that cold weather gives the remote/display problems (mine does). Could it be that? It was like 20 degrees this morning when I left and it's about 40 now.


This has been happening with my front left mid/tweet and it is also really cold here. Although it goes in and out mostly when I go over bumps so it is probably just an RCA that is messed up I don't know.


----------



## Abrasive

Based on my understanding, which we've already established is tenuous at best, the cold shouldn't matter. Processors may be different, but I've never had an amp cut out due to cold. The LCD display will be slow, but ive never had it cause an issue on a head unit.
I'm not an expert on car audio, but I know a bit about the cold.


----------



## JVD240

I did an MS8 for a friend. We see -30C here pretty frequently. He never reported any issues.


----------



## t3sn4f2

camfreem7 said:


> Ok thanks fellas, I actually did tell them "I read online that the Focal crossover should be omitted and I should use the MS-8 to do the crossovers" when I picked it up ha. Their response was "yeah its called bi-amping but we don't really recommend it". I definitely want to get the most out of the MS-8 so I am going to try to get them to do the active setup but0000000 a few clarifying questions. Since JVD240 asked about my setup here it is:
> 
> 2004 Acura TL, woofers are in the bottom of the door, tweets in the dash corner by the windshield.
> Focal ps165 FX up front
> PHD 4" coaxial center
> Stock rears (need to install my PHD 6.1 FB Coaxials)
> Boston Acoustics G5 10" (also have the GTR passive radiator but need the right box until I put it in with the sub)
> JL Audio XJ 360/4
> Alpine monoblock (took it from my brother don't know the model)
> 
> So to go active, would I need to use all 4 channels of my JL for the woofers and tweets or power the tweets off the MS-8?
> 
> Also, I am thinking of buying an Xtant 1.1 amp for my center which would give it 100 watts, though I wondering if giving my center more power than my fronts would cause a problem with the MS-8s auto-eq?
> 
> Which brings me to another possibly stupid question. does the MS-8 add 20 watts per channel if you are using external amps or does it only use the 20 watts if you are just powering that channel off the MS-8


-Power the tweets off the amp and run the rears off the ms-8 amp. They are large drivers and as a result need less power to get loud enough. They also are running a logic7 rear fill signal which typically isn't as loud as the front and center channels.

I would also try using the ms-8 amp first for the center. If you find it is running out of steam in your particular setup then get an amp for it.

- No, having more power to the center won't cause any problems and could actually help your sound since we tend to over drive door midbass past their limits. And that will cause you to squeeze more out of a front mid or center mid then you would under non over driving conditions. The extra headroom power then comes into play there giving clean power to the center instead of clipping a smaller amp. If that makes sense.

-internal amps are negated if you run external amps on those same output channel. IOW if you pick your front center out to be RCA to amp then the ms-8 center channel amp assigned to that channel remains idle. You can not use it in conjunction with the RCA output of the same channel designation.

-You also might want to try the tweeters in the sail panels later on if you find them don't sound that good in the dash. Just pull them out, extend the speaker wires temporally and mount them temporarily in the sails to see. Make sure to recalibrate if you do try that. As well as recalibrating again afterward if you decide to put them back in the dash.


----------



## Socalstangman

So Im reading a lot of info here and I may not of understood , but I have a question...

Im going to hopefully be installing my MS8 this weekend or next for sure, I want to do a 3 way front and a sub. Can I run rear speakers off the MS8 power?


----------



## DavidRam

OMG, this is a uber-MEGA thread! I was about to order an MS-8, but now I am not sure if I should love it or run from it... lol!


----------



## Socalstangman

DavidRam said:


> OMG, this is a uber-MEGA thread! I was about to order an MS-8, but now I am not sure if I should love it or run from it... lol!


I know, I feel the same way. I ordered mine from Amazon but haven't opened it yet. Some days I think Ill do it, other days I feel like I shouldn't. Overall, I think Ill go for it. Amazon is very generous with returns.


----------



## Darth SQ

07maximan said:


> I know, I feel the same way. I ordered mine from Amazon but haven't opened it yet. Some days I think Ill do it, other days I feel like I shouldn't. Overall, I think Ill go for it. Amazon is very generous with returns.


Just do it! (NIKE motto)
Everyone has to start somewhere and the MS-8 is the best one to start with since it's so user friendly.
Don't rush the install; take your time and familiarize yourself with the unit.
As AndyFrog said, read the instruction manual fully and refer to it when necessary and you should be fine.
If after all that you find there's an issue, that's what we're here for. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## t3sn4f2

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Just do it! (NIKE motto)
> Everyone has to start somewhere and the MS-8 is the best one to start with since it's so user friendly.
> Don't rush the install; take your time and familiarize yourself with the unit.
> As AndyFrog said, read the instruction manual fully and refer to it when necessary and you should be fine.
> If after all that you find there's an issue, that's what we're here for.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


x2. People get overwhelmed from this thread, but what they don't realized is there are 10 times as many post on this site relating to non auto-tune processors as there are to this one.


----------



## fantasy

Yeah it's not the weather that's causing the problem. I'm pretty sure it's my amp that's messed up. 

I've been having this problem with my front right mid. It makes like a scratching noise. It sounds like distortion. I've tried switching rcas, swapping drivers, recalibrating with different settings, but I kept on having issues with the front right mid. 

Yesterday, I switched the speaker output on my mids' amp and the problem went to the left mid instead, so I knew it wasn't an issue with my wiring or the ms8. Between this problem and the random shut off yesterday, I think it's time for me to get a new amp for my mids. 

I'm curious though. What would make my amp to cause my mid to make that kind of noise. Loose connection somewhere in the amp?


----------



## talan7

I just recalibrated my MS8. This time leaving out the center and sides as they were powered by the MS8, and I set the rears as sides like the manual says. I have the JBL MS 4 channel powering front and rear and JBL MS sub amp powering sub. It sounds really nice, even with logic 7 on. My problem is after a day or 2 I start to get static from the right tweeter. it comes and goes. I don't get it when the car isn't moving, only when I'm driving. It's also sporadic, at times it's not there, at times it's barely noticeable and at times it's rather noticeable and a PITA. Any ideas what can be causing this?


----------



## fantasy

talan7 said:


> I just recalibrated my MS8. This time leaving out the center and sides as they were powered by the MS8, and I set the rears as sides like the manual says. I have the JBL MS 4 channel powering front and rear and JBL MS sub amp powering sub. It sounds really nice, even with logic 7 on. My problem is after a day or 2 I start to get static from the right tweeter. it comes and goes. I don't get it when the car isn't moving, only when I'm driving. It's also sporadic, at times it's not there, at times it's barely noticeable and at times it's rather noticeable and a PITA. Any ideas what can be causing this?


Almost sounds like the problem I'm having. Swap the speaker output on the amp that's powering your tweeters and see if the problem goes to the left.


----------



## sunshinefc3s

Haven't been following....any plans from jbl to sell an updated / next gen ms8?


----------



## talan7

fantasy said:


> Almost sounds like the problem I'm having. Swap the speaker output on the amp that's powering your tweeters and see if the problem goes to the left.


I turn my head unit down when I calibrate. Should I leave it at what gave me the ok signals from the disc? I turn it down because at higher levels my bass gets cut (GM car). I was thinking of adding an audiocontrol loc with accubass after my stock amp before the ms8. I don't think the ms8 has any kind of bass optimization. The loc may also help with noise. I hope it's not the ms8 itself.


----------



## JVD240

talan7 said:


> I turn my head unit down when I calibrate. Should I leave it at what gave me the ok signals from the disc? I turn it down because at higher levels my bass gets cut (GM car). I was thinking of adding an audiocontrol loc with accubass after my stock amp before the ms8. I don't think the ms8 has any kind of bass optimization. The loc may also help with noise. I hope it's not the ms8 itself.


Leave the head unit at that setting. That is the reason for finding the OK OK OK level. The MS8 equalizes the factory signal. You do not need a LOC. Let the MS8 do its thing; It's smarter than you think.


----------



## Ryanu

I thought ms8 will ask u to lower down the vol before ejecting the cd once u r done and get all OK with the signal? 

My understanding is that it doesnt matter at what vol ur HU is set at during calibration. It is the vol of ms8 matters most.


----------



## JVD240

Ryanu said:


> I thought ms8 will ask u to lower down the vol before ejecting the cd once u r done and get all OK with the signal?
> 
> My understanding is that it doesnt matter at what vol ur HU is set at during calibration. It is the vol of ms8 matters most.


You know what, you are right.

The impulses come directly from the MS8 regardless of HU volume.

Regarding bass roll off... the MS8 equalizes factory signal. Ideal situation is running the HU at the OK OK OK level and using the MS8 remote as a volume control.


----------



## fantasy

JVD240 said:


> You know what, you are right.
> 
> The impulses come directly from the MS8 regardless of HU volume.
> 
> Regarding bass roll off... the MS8 equalizes factory signal. Ideal situation is running the HU at the OK OK OK level and using the MS8 remote as a volume control.


Correct. During the acoustic calibration, it doesn't matter what the volume of the HU is. It's the MS8's volume that matters. 

It's really not ideal to be using the MS8's remote to change the volume at this point though. The cold weather makes the display/remote really difficult to use. It takes like three presses for it to register one.


----------



## thehatedguy

It is a shame that the MS8v2 never made it...


----------



## SQLnovice

I recently got the MS 8 and I'm amazed at what this processor can do at this moment. And to think that it came out back in (06 or 07)? Is even more impressive.


----------



## sunshinefc3s

thehatedguy said:


> It is a shame that the MS8v2 never made it...


Does that mean we have actual knowledge that jbl abandoned the project?


----------



## t3sn4f2

sunshinefc3s said:


> Does that mean we have actual knowledge that jbl abandoned the project?


ooouuu.......juicy!


----------



## sunshinefc3s

t3sn4f2 said:


> ooouuu.......juicy!


I don't know what that means.


----------



## talan7

fantasy said:


> Correct. During the acoustic calibration, it doesn't matter what the volume of the HU is. It's the MS8's volume that matters.
> 
> It's really not ideal to be using the MS8's remote to change the volume at this point though. The cold weather makes the display/remote really difficult to use. It takes like three presses for it to register one.


So I can turn the hu down during calibration but I should turn it back up to the ok, ok, ok level after calibration?

The hu level the disc gets the ok's is at a level where much of the bass has been rolled off.


----------



## t3sn4f2

talan7 said:


> *So I can turn the hu down during calibration but I should turn it back up to the ok, ok, ok level after calibration*?
> 
> The hu level the disc gets the ok's is at a level where much of the bass has been rolled off.


If you want to control master volume from the MS-8, yes you put the head unit volume back where it said OK at. That's the level where the MS-8 corrected for.


----------



## JVD240

talan7 said:


> So I can turn the hu down during calibration but I should turn it back up to the ok, ok, ok level after calibration?
> 
> The hu level the disc gets the ok's is at a level where much of the bass has been rolled off.


As t3sn4f2 said, the MS8 equalizes(flattens) the signal from the factory HU at that OK OK OK level.

If you use the HU volume to control level you will probably get way too much bass at lower volumes. You might prefer that though.


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

talan7 said:


> So I can turn the hu down during calibration but I should turn it back up to the ok, ok, ok level after calibration?


No, not exactly... it depends on which 'calibration' you are talking about. Input vs. output. If you are talking about input calibration on a factory HU, then leave the volume level as is until input calibration is complete. 

Page 25 of the JBL MS-8 Manual states:

"3. Once *OK, OK, OK* appear on the display, stop making adjustments to the head unit, and select *Continue* while the CD is playing. NOTE: Do NOT make any other adjustments to the head unit during the entire input setup procedure.

The display will read *Acquiring* while the MS-8 analyzes and corrects the input signal. Once the procedure is complete (it might take up to a minute or two), follow the instructions on the screen: Turn the head unit s volume down, remove the CD and select *Continue*." (Sic)

If you have an aftermarket HU and are using the RCA connectors, you can skip the input calibration all together.



> The hu level the disc gets the ok's is at a level where much of the bass has been rolled off.


That's the whole point of the calibration. When you load the disc into the head unit and it starts playing, the MS-8 wants you to increase the volume level so that it has a good signal. 

Once it establishes that the signal is high enough, it looks at the critical details of the signal that it coming into the MS-8. It knows what is recorded on the disc, and it compares what is on the disc to the output of your head unit. If there has been some type of factory time alignment, boost/cut of the signal, crossovers, or any other changes to the signal, then the MS-8 will make the necessary adjustments so that it receives a perfectly flat stereo signal at the input stage.

If the signal from your head unit has the bass rolled off, then the MS-8 will make adjustments to compensate for that. That's why the instructions tell you to turn off any kind of EQ, bass boost, and all that other stuff on the factory HU. It wants as flat a signal as it can get, and from there it will make adjustments so that the signal going into the MS-8 is right on target. At that point, the MS-8 will look at each output channel that is assigned and perform the output calibration. 

From there, you will want to decide if you want to adjust the volume from your factory HU volume control or the MS-8 remote control. The MS-8 volume adjustment will give you the cleanest/best signal control, especially if your factory HU does some funky bass boost at lower volumes. 

You may find that you prefer that... and that's okay too. It's your system and your ears. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## talan7

Fast Hot Rod said:


> No, not exactly... it depends on which 'calibration' you are talking about. Input vs. output. If you are talking about input calibration on a factory HU, then leave the volume level as is until input calibration is complete.
> 
> Page 25 of the JBL MS-8 Manual states:
> 
> "3. Once *OK, OK, OK* appear on the display, stop making adjustments to the head unit, and select *Continue* while the CD is playing. NOTE: Do NOT make any other adjustments to the head unit during the entire input setup procedure.
> 
> The display will read *Acquiring* while the MS-8 analyzes and corrects the input signal. Once the procedure is complete (it might take up to a minute or two), follow the instructions on the screen: Turn the head unit s volume down, remove the CD and select *Continue*." (Sic)
> 
> If you have an aftermarket HU and are using the RCA connectors, you can skip the input calibration all together.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the whole point of the calibration. When you load the disc into the head unit and it starts playing, the MS-8 wants you to increase the volume level so that it has a good signal.
> 
> Once it establishes that the signal is high enough, it looks at the critical details of the signal that it coming into the MS-8. It knows what is recorded on the disc, and it compares what is on the disc to the output of your head unit. If there has been some type of factory time alignment, boost/cut of the signal, crossovers, or any other changes to the signal, then the MS-8 will make the necessary adjustments so that it receives a perfectly flat stereo signal at the input stage.
> 
> If the signal from your head unit has the bass rolled off, then the MS-8 will make adjustments to compensate for that. That's why the instructions tell you to turn off any kind of EQ, bass boost, and all that other stuff on the factory HU. It wants as flat a signal as it can get, and from there it will make adjustments so that the signal going into the MS-8 is right on target. At that point, the MS-8 will look at each output channel that is assigned and perform the output calibration.
> 
> From there, you will want to decide if you want to adjust the volume from your factory HU volume control or the MS-8 remote control. The MS-8 volume adjustment will give you the cleanest/best signal control, especially if your factory HU does some funky bass boost at lower volumes.
> 
> You may find that you prefer that... and that's okay too. It's your system and your ears.
> 
> Hope this helps.


It does thanks. I do everything like the manual says. My head unit gets the ok at level 28. It's the turning down the head unit step that confuses me. I get the ok, then I turn down my head unit to 20 and leave it that way through the calibrating with the mic. Why turn it down if 28 gets me the ok.


----------



## wrager

So frustrated at this point, I'm ready to ditch the MS8 for a more typical install. It just sounds like crap-flat, nasally and no depth, no mid bass. I have tried re-calibrating dozens of times. Disconnecting the sub during calibration helps a little, but still way lacking in mid bass. I just don't know what to do. My VW Fender system sounds way, way better. What a giant waste of money. 

Quick design description-I have the Nissan Bose pre-outs wired with RCA's to the MS8 RCA inputs, L/R and Sub. No problem when I run the input/CD-ok/ok/ok. I used the recommended crossovers and slopes for the 5 channels (all JBL's). I am using the Alpine 5 channel MRX-V70 for L (lo)-C-R (lo) and Sub. All are 2 ohm speakers. The tweets and backs are using the MS8 amps.

Here's a real head scratcher. My right rear speaker won't play any sound. When I split the wire and test the speaker with another source, works fine. And when I test the output from MS8 with a different speaker, works fine. How can this be????


----------



## fantasy

talan7 said:


> It does thanks. I do everything like the manual says. My head unit gets the ok at level 28. It's the turning down the head unit step that confuses me. I get the ok, then I turn down my head unit to 20 and leave it that way through the calibrating with the mic. Why turn it down if 28 gets me the ok.


I think it varies case by case. Let's say you follow the instructions, taking out the CD after the OK OK OK step and leaving the HU volume at 28. If your HU doesn't automatically switches source and play anything throughout the next process, then I don't think there's gonna be a difference between leaving the HU volume as is, and turning it down to 0. 

For me though, when I take out the CD, my HU automatically switches sources to something else and begins playing it. That means I can't leave the vol at whatever it was because there's gonna be interference during the sweeps for the acoustic calibration.

By telling the user to turn down the vol, it'll keep everyone from having problems. 

There could be other reasons too, but that's the issue I would have if I didn't turn down the vol.


----------



## fantasy

wrager said:


> So frustrated at this point, I'm ready to ditch the MS8 for a more typical install. It just sounds like crap-flat, nasally and no depth, no mid bass. I have tried re-calibrating dozens of times. Disconnecting the sub during calibration helps a little, but still way lacking in mid bass. I just don't know what to do. My VW Fender system sounds way, way better. What a giant waste of money.
> 
> Quick design description-I have the Nissan Bose pre-outs wired with RCA's to the MS8 RCA inputs, L/R and Sub. No problem when I run the input/CD-ok/ok/ok. I used the recommended crossovers and slopes for the 5 channels (all JBL's). I am using the Alpine 5 channel MRX-V70 for L (lo)-C-R (lo) and Sub. All are 2 ohm speakers. The tweets and backs are using the MS8 amps.
> 
> Here's a real head scratcher. My right rear speaker won't play any sound. When I split the wire and test the speaker with another source, works fine. And when I test the output from MS8 with a different speaker, works fine. How can this be????


Did you check the phases? From reading through this whole thread, it seems that if your system sounds like **** afterwards, it's usually a phase issue. Even if just one driver is out of phase, ms8 won't like it, and your ears won't either. 

As for the other problem, hopefully someone else can chime in and help.


----------



## talan7

fantasy said:


> I think it varies case by case. Let's say you follow the instructions, taking out the CD after the OK OK OK step and leaving the HU volume at 28. If your HU doesn't automatically switches source and play anything throughout the next process, then I don't think there's gonna be a difference between leaving the HU volume as is, and turning it down to 0.
> 
> For me though, when I take out the CD, my HU automatically switches sources to something else and begins playing it. That means I can't leave the vol at whatever it was because there's gonna be interference during the sweeps for the acoustic calibration.
> 
> By telling the user to turn down the vol, it'll keep everyone from having problems.
> 
> There could be other reasons too, but that's the issue I would have if I didn't turn down the vol.


And after the sweeps you turn your head unit volume back up then?


----------



## fantasy

talan7 said:


> And after the sweeps you turn your head unit volume back up then?


Yes. After the calibration is done, I turn up ms8's vol to -6 and use my HU's vol control. The reason for leaving ms8's vol at 6 is because any higher and the signal from ms8 isn't clean (or something like that lol). That suggestion is straight from Andy himself (aka ms8's father).


----------



## 14642

talan7 said:


> It does thanks. I do everything like the manual says. My head unit gets the ok at level 28. It's the turning down the head unit step that confuses me. I get the ok, then I turn down my head unit to 20 and leave it that way through the calibrating with the mic. Why turn it down if 28 gets me the ok.


So that when you're finished with the speaker calibration and MS-8 passes the sound from the head unit you wont get blasted with the test signal for head unit calibration at high volume. It isn't pleasant.


----------



## 14642

wrager said:


> So frustrated at this point, I'm ready to ditch the MS8 for a more typical install. It just sounds like crap-flat, nasally and no depth, no mid bass. I have tried re-calibrating dozens of times. Disconnecting the sub during calibration helps a little, but still way lacking in mid bass. I just don't know what to do. My VW Fender system sounds way, way better. What a giant waste of money.
> 
> Quick design description-I have the Nissan Bose pre-outs wired with RCA's to the MS8 RCA inputs, L/R and Sub. No problem when I run the input/CD-ok/ok/ok. I used the recommended crossovers and slopes for the 5 channels (all JBL's). I am using the Alpine 5 channel MRX-V70 for L (lo)-C-R (lo) and Sub. All are 2 ohm speakers. The tweets and backs are using the MS8 amps.
> 
> Here's a real head scratcher. My right rear speaker won't play any sound. When I split the wire and test the speaker with another source, works fine. And when I test the output from MS8 with a different speaker, works fine. How can this be????


Check your channel assignments carefully. Also, have you identified the fronts as 1-way or 2-way?


----------



## MetricMuscle

wrager said:


> Here's a real head scratcher. My right rear speaker won't play any sound. When I split the wire and test the speaker with another source, works fine. And when I test the output from MS8 with a different speaker, works fine. How can this be????


Sounds like you are not connecting the speaker wires to the MS-8 correctly.

Are you using the factory wiring?

When you test the speaker, where are you connecting to?

When you test MS-8, where are you connecting to?


----------



## Socalstangman

I'm getting close to finishing up my install and need a little help. Im setting up a 3 way front and need some starting points for my crossovers. I have the JL Audio C5 5x7 fronts and an 8" kicker in the doors. I also have a 10" w6 in the trunk. I don't really want the subs to be deep base, I want more of a mid bass from them.


----------



## camfreem7

Ok fellas I'm back...

So I did the calibration with my tweeters covered up since I am using the passive crossovers (for now) and my tweets are distorting at relatively high volumes but not all that high. Also, it seems to happen at considerably lower volumes when I'm listening to like classic rock as opposed to hip-hop/electronic music, I'm guessing this is pretty obvious why but just wanted to mention it.

Could this be just a matter of switching the passive crossover settings? Like if they are set at 12/db for instance would switching them to 18/db help? I don't know what they are set at I will have to take apart the door and see where they mounted them and what they are set at.

I know I need to have the tweets and the woofers going into separate channels on the MS-8 but for now any thoughts on why they are distorting at such low volumes? Someone at Acurazine said my fronts might be out of phase but I did this test I found online and it seemed to show they were in phase, I am going to try it again though. 

Otherwise it is sounding amazing as long as I don't listen to loud on certain tracks so I am very encouraged.


----------



## 14642

Only cover the tweeters for the FIRST of the three sweeps on each side.


----------



## Abrasive

Got another one for you experts of the MS-8.
Everything was working fine for the last few days, then last night I got back into my truck and the system wasn't turning on. Power going in seems good, Grounds seems good, remote is working, but it is not switching my MS-8 on, and is therefore not turning my amps on. If I pull the fuse and reinsert while the truck is running, then everything turns back on. 
I get ~13.5v between power and ground on ms8, and 0v on the remote in with the key off. With the key in Acc or run, the remote wire is showing ~13.5v across the ground on the ms-8, so the remote seems to be working fine. Ideas?

Edit: problem is intermittent. Sometimes it doesn't turn on; sometimes it does.


----------



## talan7

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So that when you're finished with the speaker calibration and MS-8 passes the sound from the head unit you wont get blasted with the test signal for head unit calibration at high volume. It isn't pleasant.


Ok, so I re did the acoustic measurement with my hu at 28 and it didn't sound too good. The deep bass disappeared and the remaining sounded muddy. I also got distortion. It did give me more bass up front. The bass elimination definitely is there. It's as if someone is turning the bass down as you turn the volume up. Would the bass be getting cut at the head unit or stock amp. I'm going to look at the audiocontrol lc2i installing it after stock amp.

I saw someone mentioned covering tweeters when measuring. Why is that needed. I have components with passive crossover. I'm still getting slight distortion from front right speakers. It's worse when driving, not there when parked


----------



## camfreem7

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Only cover the tweeters for the FIRST of the three sweeps on each side.


Andy W to the rescue again, 'ppreciate it.


----------



## sierrarider

I was having some issues with calibrating the MS-8 to my stock head unit. I finally got it sounding pretty good, even on Logic 7. I adjusted the amp's gains to appx 2v each. I made sure to get my inputs and crossovers correct. I selected 2 way for the front speakers (a 9" woofer and a 3-1/2" full range).
On my HU, I needed to set the volume to 50 to get the ok ok ok confirmation. I left the volume set there. I set the MS-8 set at -6 per Andy's suggestion. When the calibration was complete, I adjusted the equalizer to a typical automobile curve. Pretty happy with the results. I think it could sound cleaner with a better head unit and better install on the 3-1/2" speakers. I will be tackling the A-pillar build pretty soon if I can find some time.


----------



## talan7

sierrarider said:


> I was having some issues with calibrating the MS-8 to my stock head unit. I finally got it sounding pretty good, even on Logic 7. I adjusted the amp's gains to appx 2v each. I made sure to get my inputs and crossovers correct. I selected 2 way for the front speakers (a 9" woofer and a 3-1/2" full range).
> On my HU, I needed to set the volume to 50 to get the ok ok ok confirmation. I left the volume set there. I set the MS-8 set at -6 per Andy's suggestion. When the calibration was complete, I adjusted the equalizer to a typical automobile curve. Pretty happy with the results. I think it could sound cleaner with a better head unit and better install on the 3-1/2" speakers. I will be tackling the A-pillar build pretty soon if I can find some time.


How did you set the amp gains? How did you measure 2 volts?


----------



## talan7

sierrarider said:


> I was having some issues with calibrating the MS-8 to my stock head unit. I finally got it sounding pretty good, even on Logic 7. I adjusted the amp's gains to appx 2v each. I made sure to get my inputs and crossovers correct. I selected 2 way for the front speakers (a 9" woofer and a 3-1/2" full range).
> On my HU, I needed to set the volume to 50 to get the ok ok ok confirmation. I left the volume set there. I set the MS-8 set at -6 per Andy's suggestion. When the calibration was complete, I adjusted the equalizer to a typical automobile curve. Pretty happy with the results. I think it could sound cleaner with a better head unit and better install on the 3-1/2" speakers. I will be tackling the A-pillar build pretty soon if I can find some time.


You left the MS8 at -6 when you did the acoustic measurement?


----------



## Socalstangman

07maximan said:


> I'm getting close to finishing up my install and need a little help. Im setting up a 3 way front and need some starting points for my crossovers. I have the JL Audio C5 5x7 fronts and an 8" kicker in the doors. I also have a 10" w6 in the trunk. I don't really want the subs to be deep base, I want more of a mid bass from them.


Anybody??


----------



## JVD240

07maximan said:


> Anybody??


Initial reaction is why even have a sub if you plan on using it as a midbass?

8's will handle midbass relatively well. 5x7 component set? Speaker locations?

Just seems odd that you have several speakers that can basically serve the same purpose.


----------



## Socalstangman

JVD240 said:


> Initial reaction is why even have a sub if you plan on using it as a midbass?
> 
> 8's will handle midbass relatively well. 5x7 component set? Speaker locations?
> 
> Just seems odd that you have several speakers that can basically serve the same purpose.


The 8" subs in the dorrs really cant take that much power. Plus they rattle the hell out of the doors. The 5x7 has very little mid bass out put. I was hoping to tune the 8" subs some where in between the 5x7 and the 10" JL. I suppose I could try just using the 8' in the doors and see how it works out.


----------



## JVD240

07maximan said:


> The 8" subs in the dorrs really cant take that much power. Plus they rattle the hell out of the doors. The 5x7 has very little mid bass out put. I was hoping to tune the 8" subs some where in between the 5x7 and the 10" JL. I suppose I could try just using the 8' in the doors and see how it works out.


May I ask what the speaker locations are? What vehicle? How are they installed? Doors are sealed/deadened? 

You should even get decent midbass out of a 5x7 when installed properly. I've had 6.5s that have pretty serious midbass output.


----------



## fantasy

talan7 said:


> Ok, so I re did the acoustic measurement with my hu at 28 and it didn't sound too good. The deep bass disappeared and the remaining sounded muddy. I also got distortion. It did give me more bass up front. The bass elimination definitely is there. It's as if someone is turning the bass down as you turn the volume up. Would the bass be getting cut at the head unit or stock amp. I'm going to look at the audiocontrol lc2i installing it after stock amp.
> 
> I saw someone mentioned covering tweeters when measuring. Why is that needed. I have components with passive crossover. I'm still getting slight distortion from front right speakers. It's worse when driving, not there when parked


What do you mean you did the acoustic measurement with your hu at 28? You left the hu vol at 28 and did the acoustic measurements? You're supposed to turn the hu vol down to 0 before doing the acoustic calibrations. Just follow the instructions and don't overthink it. Have you read the instruction manual yet?

Regarding covering the tweeters: 

"Since you are running active, you don't need to cover the tweeter during first sweep. In fact, you should not cover it because MS8 will individually time aligned the tweeter and midbass. It is only for passive setup where tweeter and midbass are considered a single driver, and depending on its location it can be far apart from each other, to which covering the tweeter may solved issues. But is not always necessary."



talan7 said:


> How did you set the amp gains? How did you measure 2 volts?


What amp are you using? Read its input sensitivity's spec and just approximate it. 



talan7 said:


> You left the MS8 at -6 when you did the acoustic measurement?


No do not leave the ms8's vol at -6 for the calibration. The vol will be too loud and it will clip the mic. If using the ms8's internal amp, start at -20. If using external amp, use a lower level, -30 or below.

Make sure your sub's sweeps aren't too loud, heard but not be felt. 

Agian, if you haven't read the manual yet, you really need to. Some of the stuff I answered is in the manual.


----------



## talan7

fantasy said:


> What do you mean you did the acoustic measurement with your hu at 28? You left the hu vol at 28 and did the acoustic measurements? You're supposed to turn the hu vol down to 0 before doing the acoustic calibrations. Just follow the instructions and don't overthink it. Have you read the instruction manual yet?
> 
> What amp are you using? Read its input sensitivity's spec and just approximate it.
> 
> No do not leave the ms8's vol at -6 for the calibration. The vol will be too loud and it will clip the mic. If using the ms8's internal amp, start at -20. If using external amp, use a lower level, -30 or below.
> 
> Make sure your sub's sweeps aren't too loud, heard but not be felt.
> 
> Agian, if you haven't read the manual yet, you really need to. Some of the stuff I answered is in the manual.


The manual doesn't say turn the hu down to 0. 

I'm using JBLs MS line 4 channel and 1 channel amps.

I've been measuring with the MS8 volume at -40


----------



## Socalstangman

JVD240 said:


> May I ask what the speaker locations are? What vehicle? How are they installed? Doors are sealed/deadened?
> 
> You should even get decent midbass out of a 5x7 when installed properly. I've had 6.5s that have pretty serious midbass output.


All the speakers in the doors. I havent done any deadening or anything yet. I got some Dynamat I just havent got to do it yet. All of this is in my 2014 Mustang.


----------



## fantasy

talan7 said:


> The manual doesn't say turn the hu down to 0.
> 
> I'm using JBLs MS line 4 channel and 1 channel amps.
> 
> I've been measuring with the MS8 volume at -40


I meant follow the on screen instructions. It tells you to take out the CD and turn the HU vol all the way down doesn't it? It never tells you to turn it back up at any point. Have to tried it at 30 or 35?

Can you provide links to the amps you're using?


----------



## talan7

fantasy said:


> I meant follow the on screen instructions. It tells you to take out the CD and turn the HU vol all the way down doesn't it? It never tells you to turn it back up at any point. Have to tried it at 30 or 35?
> 
> Can you provide links to the amps you're using?


These amps

http://www.jbl.com/resources/Brands...dDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/MS-A5001_OM.pdf

http://s3.amazonaws.com/szmanuals/5f6a18be5bd9957c42e6ce61e427e1ec


----------



## 14642

It doesn't matter where the head unit is set during acoustic calibration. MS-8 generates the signal for the calibration. The manual says to turn down the head unit so you don't get blasted with the test signal for head unit calibration when the acoustic calibration is finished.


----------



## 14642

In a system with passive crossovers, covering the tweeters during only the FIRST sweep (when MS-8 sweeps all of the drivers in succession (doesn't sweep the sub) will force MS-8 to time align the front speakers to the location of the midrange rather than the tweeter.


----------



## Brant82

With the MS-8 how can I run my 2 way comps(kick panel), another midrange in the door, my rear fill and sub woofer? I'll be running a 4 channel amp on the comps, a four channel on the doors and rear fill and 2 channel on the sub. 

Alternatively i'm thinking about running a 3 way comps doors, kicks, tweets A pillar, rear fill and a sub. With each of these setups I'm coming up short 1 channel with each setup

If you guys could help or need more info please let me know.

Thanks!!

Bryant


----------



## camfreem7

Hey another quick question, I just saw that when the shop installed my components they turned on the HPF on my amp for both my fronts and rears. I think I know the answer to this but I should turn off all filters on the amp right, even if I am using the passive crossovers up front?


----------



## subwoofery

Brant82 said:


> With the MS-8 how can I run my 2 way comps(kick panel), another midrange in the door, my rear fill and sub woofer? I'll be running a 4 channel amp on the comps, a four channel on the doors and rear fill and 2 channel on the sub.
> 
> Alternatively i'm thinking about running a 3 way comps doors, kicks, tweets A pillar, rear fill and a sub. With each of these setups I'm coming up short 1 channel with each setup
> 
> If you guys could help or need more info please let me know.
> 
> Thanks!!
> 
> Bryant


Buy a 4 channels amp that has a DSP inside: 
Zapco DC Ref 
Mosconi D2 DSP 
the not-out-yet Kicker Q series 

... and power the tweeters + midranges 

Problem solved 

Else? Use a passive Xover between the tweeters and the midranges. 

Kelvin


----------



## MetricMuscle

Brant82 said:


> With the MS-8 how can I run my 2 way comps(kick panel), another midrange in the door, my rear fill and sub woofer? I'll be running a 4 channel amp on the comps, a four channel on the doors and rear fill and 2 channel on the sub.
> 
> Alternatively i'm thinking about running a 3 way comps doors, kicks, tweets A pillar, rear fill and a sub. With each of these setups I'm coming up short 1 channel with each setup
> 
> If you guys could help or need more info please let me know.
> 
> Thanks!!
> 
> Bryant


I have the same issue.

Don't run the sub thru MS-8.
Lower frequencies are less critical than mid and high when it comes to delay.

The sub will probably be the furthest away from the listener so the other channels will be delayed while it will not.

Might could even run the sub off of the rear fill channels since they may be around the same distance away from the listener.

I'll be using a Zapco DC500.1 amplifier for my sub and it has built in DSP so I can adjust it separately from the rest of the system should I need to.


----------



## 14642

MetricMuscle said:


> I have the same issue.
> 
> Don't run the sub thru MS-8.
> Lower frequencies are less critical than mid and high when it comes to delay.
> 
> The sub will probably be the furthest away from the listener so the other channels will be delayed while it will not.
> 
> Might could even run the sub off of the rear fill channels since they may be around the same distance away from the listener.
> 
> I'll be using a Zapco DC500.1 amplifier for my sub and it has built in DSP so I can adjust it separately from the rest of the system should I need to.


Don't do this. MS-8 has a long delay through the processor. ALL channels should pass through MS-8. Use an amp with a crossover to b--amp the front.


----------



## MetricMuscle

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Don't do this. MS-8 has a long delay through the processor. ALL channels should pass through MS-8. Use an amp with a crossover to b--amp the front.


Ok. Luckily my front mid and tweeter will be very close together so having both on just one channel won't have the issues some do when they are spaced farther apart.

I think someone touched on this before but, what frequency range is most important when MS-8 calibrates? I'm pretty sure it is the mid range but not sure what the low and high points are.


----------



## FordEscape

Purchased my MS-8 new from Amazon, it came without the calibration file on the CD.

Can someone confirm that the file at this website (MLS Setup Track Small.wav), copied as instructed to a CD, is the correct calibration file for my installation with factory HU?

harman - old - MS-8

I called JBL and they're sending a replacement disk but I'd like to move forward now if possible.

TIA


----------



## kaigoss69

FordEscape said:


> Purchased my MS-8 new from Amazon, it came without the calibration file on the CD.
> 
> Can someone confirm that the file at this website, copied as instructed to a CD, is the correct calibration file for my installation with factory HU?
> 
> harman - old - MS-8
> 
> I called JBL and they're sending a replacement disk but I'd like to move forward now if possible.
> 
> TIA


Why wouldn't it be the correct file?


----------



## FordEscape

I'll take that as a "yes", thank you.

Just wanted to be sure since that's not a site readily linked thru JBL USA and when I asked the tech support during my call they said there was no online source for the file I needed nor could they email it to me ... the only option they offered was to wait for the disk they're sending.


----------



## 14642

Yes, it's the correct file.


----------



## lostthumb

Ahhhh! 
I have a problem. I had the system sounding good with the MS-8 but I wanted to see about recalibrating it. I went thru all the steps but now, only one side is playing music. 
It happened before and I replaced the microphones with one from another MS-8. 
The microphones have been sitting in my door panel with nothing else in it.

I have called JBL, they do not know when they will get anymore in. I don't know what to do.


----------



## talan7

lostthumb said:


> Ahhhh!
> I have a problem. I had the system sounding good with the MS-8 but I wanted to see about recalibrating it. I went thru all the steps but now, only one side is playing music.
> It happened before and I replaced the microphones with one from another MS-8.
> The microphones have been sitting in my door panel with nothing else in it.
> 
> I have called JBL, they do not know when they will get anymore in. I don't know what to do.


Wow, I was wondering about the mics. I was thinking of buying a back up mic of my own but I see they aren't readily available. I've got to take good care of mine.

Where are you located? Perhaps a local can meet up with you and lend you a hand.


----------



## kaigoss69

lostthumb said:


> Ahhhh!
> I have a problem. I had the system sounding good with the MS-8 but I wanted to see about recalibrating it. I went thru all the steps but now, only one side is playing music.
> It happened before and I replaced the microphones with one from another MS-8.
> The microphones have been sitting in my door panel with nothing else in it.
> 
> I have called JBL, they do not know when they will get anymore in. I don't know what to do.


It doesn't make sense that a bad mic would cause the processor to put out music on one side only. Check your wiring.


----------



## lostthumb

kaigoss69 said:


> It doesn't make sense that a bad mic would cause the processor to put out music on one side only. Check your wiring.


I will go through everything once more later tonight. 
During the setup, all the channels played "noise" when channel assignment was completed.

Is there anyway to test the microphones?


----------



## camfreem7

Ok, so I am going to the shop tomorrow to have them do what they should have done in the first place, namely omit the passive crossovers and bi-amp my fronts but I need a few things clarified first so I absolutely know exactly what to tell them to do(something I am finding out I need to do before I walk into any shop where I live).

So when my MS-8 was installed I also had them install a 4 channel amp and kept OEM everything else. When I did the calibration and everything I selected 2 way for my fronts because I have stock mids and tweets up there. So I would select FL LO, FL HI, etc and when the MS-8 would send the pink noise to front L or front R it would come through the tweet and the mid. So this meant they probably had the mids being powered off 2 channels of my amp and the tweets off the MS-8? Because I know the rears were off the other two channels of my amp.

So basically, what I am wondering is, shouldn't there have already been the wiring in place for them to have each mid and each tweet going to the amp and into the MS-8? Because if so, when they try to charge me to run new wire I want to tell them that it was already in place and since they decided to use the passive crossovers when I already had it running active that is their fault.

Also, one nice gentleman who has been helping me out here (t something or another) recommended that I power the mids and tweets off my 4 channel (70x4) and run the rears off the MS-8 so this is what I am going to do.

My Focal FXs have an RMS rating of 80 watts and a peak power of 160, what I am wondering is if I am sending 70 to each the tweet and the mid will it be receiving around that peak rating and should I worry about getting a more powerful amplifier? For some reason I get the feeling I am under-powering them and want to get the most out of speakers I paid more than I should on my salary.


----------



## JVD240

camfreem7 said:


> Ok, so I am going to the shop tomorrow to have them do what they should have done in the first place, namely omit the passive crossovers and bi-amp my fronts but I need a few things clarified first so I absolutely know exactly what to tell them to do(something I am finding out I need to do before I walk into any shop where I live).
> 
> So when my MS-8 was installed I also had them install a 4 channel amp and kept OEM everything else. When I did the calibration and everything I selected 2 way for my fronts because I have stock mids and tweets up there. So I would select FL LO, FL HI, etc and when the MS-8 would send the pink noise to front L or front R it would come through the tweet and the mid. So this meant they probably had the mids being powered off 2 channels of my amp and the tweets off the MS-8? Because I know the rears were off the other two channels of my amp.
> 
> So basically, what I am wondering is, shouldn't there have already been the wiring in place for them to have each mid and each tweet going to the amp and into the MS-8? Because if so, when they try to charge me to run new wire I want to tell them that it was already in place and since they decided to use the passive crossovers when I already had it running active that is their fault.
> 
> Also, one nice gentleman who has been helping me out here (t something or another) recommended that I power the mids and tweets off my 4 channel (70x4) and run the rears off the MS-8 so this is what I am going to do.
> 
> My Focal FXs have an RMS rating of 80 watts and a peak power of 160, what I am wondering is if I am sending 70 to each the tweet and the mid will it be receiving around that peak rating and should I worry about getting a more powerful amplifier? For some reason I get the feeling I am under-powering them and want to get the most out of speakers I paid more than I should on my salary.


They would not have run two sets of wires on their initial install. Are the mid and tweet both in the door? If so you need two wires pulled into each door. Unless I misunderstood and you already had this setup working properly before seeing them. Or re-use factory wiring for the tweet and pull new cable for the mid. They will then use the four amp channels for the four front drivers. Your amp will be fine for now. Run the rears off of the ms8. 

I don't want to sound rude, but it sounds like this shop you're using isn't capable of doing this work. You don't seem to be fully grasping the concept either but you are advising them. There has to be someone around you wwith more expertise.


----------



## wrager

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Check your channel assignments carefully. Also, have you identified the fronts as 1-way or 2-way?


RE: Channel assignments-do you mean during set up, or the way they are wired? I have checked both, and re-checked. Again, the left rear works fine.

I used the factory wiring from the speaker through the door to the cabin. This is where I cut the wires and spliced in enough extra to reach the MS8 under the pass seat. This is also where I confirmed that the speakers play correctly using another source (receiver in my garage). I also used another speaker I had laying around to confirm that sound is coming from the MS8. When I connect them together again, no sound.


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

wrager said:


> RE: Channel assignments-do you mean during set up, or the way they are wired? I have checked both, and re-checked. Again, the left rear works fine.
> 
> I used the factory wiring from the speaker through the door to the cabin. This is where I cut the wires and spliced in enough extra to reach the MS8 under the pass seat. This is also where I confirmed that the speakers play correctly using another source (receiver in my garage). I also used another speaker I had laying around to confirm that sound is coming from the MS8. When I connect them together again, no sound.


I cant speak for Andy, but I believe that he meant the Output Channel Assignments.

Take a look at page 11 of the JBL MS-8 Manual. On there is a list that is VERY handy for you to use and keep everything straight. I recommend either making a copy of it, or using a piece of scratch paper to write EVERYTHING down for your setup. It makes it a lot easier that way.

If I read your previous posts correctly, you have the Nissan Bose going into the MS-8 via RCA cables, and the Input setup comes out fine, correct? I saw where you said that you, "used the recommended crossovers and slopes for the 5 channels (all JBL's)." What did you mean by this, exactly? Are you saying that you have replaced the factory speakers with JBL speakers, or that you used the recommended settings in the manual, or what?

I think it would be best to tell us exactly what you have for your system, that way we can better help you get it setup correctly. So if you could, please list exactly what you have for your system. 

For example:

Head Unit: Nissan Bose Factory HU
Front Speakers; JBL 609C 6.5" Component Speakers (Left/Right)
Center Speaker: JBL P562 5.25" Coaxial Speaker
Rear Speakers: JBL P662 6.5" Coaxial Speakers
Sub: JBL W10GTi MkII
Amp: Alpine 5 channel MRX-V70

From there, we can help you figure out the best way to set everything up. So for example, if you simply want to run the speakers as 1-way (using the supplied passive crossover for your front speakers) being powered by your Alpine amp, that's pretty easy:

Channel 1 - Front Left - RCA to Alpine Amp channel 1
Channel 2 - Front Right - RCA to Alpine Amp channel 2
Channel 3 - Center - RCA to Alpine Amp channel 3
Channel 4 - Side Left - MS-8 speaker lead output 4
Channel 5 - Side Right - MS-8 speaker lead output 5
Channel 6 - Subwoofer - RCA to Alpine Amp Sub Channel

If you wanted to ditch the supplied passive crossover and go active on your front L/R speakers:

Channel 1 - Front Left Hi - MS-8 Speaker Output 1
Channel 2 - Front Left Lo - RCA Channel 2 to Alpine Amp Channel 1
Channel 3 - Front Right Hi - MS-8 Speaker Output 3
Channel 4 - Front Right Lo - RCA Channel 4 to Alpine Amp Channel 2
Channel 5 - Center - RCA Channel 5 to Alpine Amp Channel 3
Channel 6 - Side Left - MS-8 Speaker Output 6
Channel 7 - Side Right - MS-8 Speaker Output 7 
Channel 8 - Subwoofer - RCA Channel 8 to Alpine Amp Sub Channel

Once the physical connections are setup, then you just need to use the Output Setup to dial it in. Report back with what you have and how you have it wired, and I'm sure we can help you out.


----------



## camfreem7

JVD240 said:


> They would not have run two sets of wires on their initial install. Are the mid and tweet both in the door? If so you need two wires pulled into each door. Unless I misunderstood and you already had this setup working properly before seeing them. Or re-use factory wiring for the tweet and pull new cable for the mid. They will then use the four amp channels for the four front drivers. Your amp will be fine for now. Run the rears off of the ms8.
> 
> I don't want to sound rude, but it sounds like this shop you're using isn't capable of doing this work. You don't seem to be fully grasping the concept either but you are advising them. There has to be someone around you wwith more expertise.


Ok thanks and no not rude, just an astute observation. I have used two different shops and both have given me problems, Elite Auto Salon looks good but its an hour from my house but I might just have to suck it up and take it there. 

The tweets are in the dash and mids in the bottom of the doors, so they could possibly use the factory wire from tweets and run new cable for the mids? This is good to know so I can try to spell it out for them but your right, I am not exactly qualified to do so, I'm learning on the go and everything I know has come.from this forum.

If anyone else has some insight into this it would be appreciated


----------



## 14642

lostthumb said:


> Ahhhh!
> I have a problem. I had the system sounding good with the MS-8 but I wanted to see about recalibrating it. I went thru all the steps but now, only one side is playing music.
> It happened before and I replaced the microphones with one from another MS-8.
> The microphones have been sitting in my door panel with nothing else in it.
> 
> I have called JBL, they do not know when they will get anymore in. I don't know what to do.



The microphone isn't the problem. That won't cause one channel not to work. Check your input connections.


----------



## 14642

If you're using TWO channels of your amplifier to drive the front speakers through passive crossovers, then the front is 1-Way. The channel assignments determine the ACTIVE crossovers in MS-8. 

Just like the manual indicates.


----------



## dengland

Still struggling....

Tried the advice (Cross the sub LPF @ 50, set the FL /Sub cross @ 75) given back in December with little progress.

I switched to 3 way active set up and dropped the center without a dramatic difference.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Output diagnostics is full range pink noise without the EQ. 15dB of cut in the UN-EQ is no problem for MS-8.
> 
> Try running a sweep with REW with the subwoofer amp disconnected to see if that big peak is in the 6x9's or in the sub. If the sub is in a really small sealed box that doesn't make much bass below 50Hz compared to what it makes between 50 and 80, this sometimes happens. MS-8 uses 50-80 to level match the subwoofer. If there's a lot of output there, MS-8 will reduce the level and then attempt to EQ the correct shape up to its limit.
> 
> The other thing to try is to set the sub amp's crossover to something like 50 Hz and then recalibrate. That'll flatten out the sub and help MS-8 level match.


I took several measurements of the Sub and convinced myself that nothing is inherently bad with the Sub and enclosure based on this:










I changed the OEM 6x9 doors for a pair of 6.5 inch Silver Flutes and added KnuKonceptz Kno Knoise Kolossus Sound Deadener since I had the doors apart.

Again, not much of a change. I was still trying to honor the suggested gap between Sub amp LPF=50 (FL/FR Low) and the Mids in the door Low/Mid cross @ 75 to flatten the low end out. Not much content/level coming from the front doors (same as the OEM 6x9s).

I reread every post on levels. I only have the subwoofer amp to adjust since everything else is driven by the MS-8 amps. Correct level for the sub was a big question in my mind. (Obviously) SPL level changes based on where the amp LPF is set.

While the laptop was charging I used the iPhone SPL meter. I lowered the MS-8 Volume to -25 (I usually calibrate at -40). Using the MS-8 output diagnostics I measured right about 60 dB from front doors, and L/R dash. Sub was way down. I opened up the LPF to 200Hz and cranked the gain up a bit. It never got to 60dB. Crossed the Lo/[email protected] 80Hz and the mid/high @ 3500Hz. Calibrated at that -25 value. When the MS-8 offers the all 3 speakers playing left and right before the calibration tones, it was dead on 60dB for both left and right. SL and SR were in the 50s. Calibration tones were a bit louder than I am used to. MS-8 volume was adjust post calibration to the normal -6. The result was no bass to speak of, mid or otherwise. Not much content/level coming from the front doors.

I then defeated the MS-8 processing and it came alive. Easily twice as loud and full of bass. (Bass was boomy). Hmmm....

I put some familiar music in the CD player and adjusted the Amp LPF and Amp Level by ear until the sub blended the best and still was noticeable.

I went to the output diagnostic of the MS-8 (adjusted the MS-08 to -25) and took multiple measurement around the Driver's head position for each of the MS-8 channels. I averaged Left and right to create a single curve for the Infinity 3.5" Dash speaker pair and a single curve for the 6.5" Silver Flutes in the front doors. Channel 8 (Black) is the 10" sub.










With the above starting point/levels and MS-8 settings:

Front HP: 20Hz/24dB slope
Low / Mid Cross: 80Hz/24dB slope
Mid / High Cross: 3500Hz/24dB slope (1KHz - 2KHz would probably be better)
Side Hi Pass: 110Hz/24dB slope
MS-8 Level during calibration: -35
MS-8 Level post calibration: -6
LPF of the sub amp set to 100Hz. (calibration and post calibration)
Level of sub amp set to 10 o'clock (range is MIN=7 o'clock to MAX=5 o'clock).

I got another anemic calibration. Nothing to speak of from the front doors. Same sort of difference (much fuller sound)when I defeat MS-8 processing.

An REW sweep yields the following:










Blue is the MS-8 processing the signal. Red is with Processing defeated.

A couple of months ago, I think I proved to myself that the Aux input on the MS-8 was yielding curves that were similar to using the HU as a source. So I think the MS-8 is unEQing the HU adequately.

Sorry for the painfully long post.

Where do I go from here?

Thanks


----------



## kaigoss69

For some reason the MS-8 lowers the midbass levels, perhaps due to a peak in the response of the woofers (this peak could be outside the passband!). This is what happened in my car, too. Only way to fix it that I know of is to amp the midbass. Then you can change the level post calibration. The amp will also give the option to eliminate some potential peaks by using the amp filters. Anyway the MS-8 built-in IC amps are not really capable of driving aftermarket woofers with authority, so this upgrade is probably necessary anyway.


----------



## 14642

dengland said:


> Still struggling....
> 
> Tried the advice (Cross the sub LPF @ 50, set the FL /Sub cross @ 75) given back in December with little progress.
> 
> I switched to 3 way active set up and dropped the center without a dramatic difference.
> 
> 
> 
> I took several measurements of the Sub and convinced myself that nothing is inherently bad with the Sub and enclosure based on this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I changed the OEM 6x9 doors for a pair of 6.5 inch Silver Flutes and added KnuKonceptz Kno Knoise Kolossus Sound Deadener since I had the doors apart.
> 
> Again, not much of a change. I was still trying to honor the suggested gap between Sub amp LPF=50 (FL/FR Low) and the Mids in the door Low/Mid cross @ 75 to flatten the low end out. Not much content/level coming from the front doors (same as the OEM 6x9s).
> 
> I reread every post on levels. I only have the subwoofer amp to adjust since everything else is driven by the MS-8 amps. Correct level for the sub was a big question in my mind. (Obviously) SPL level changes based on where the amp LPF is set.
> 
> While the laptop was charging I used the iPhone SPL meter. I lowered the MS-8 Volume to -25 (I usually calibrate at -40). Using the MS-8 output diagnostics I measured right about 60 dB from front doors, and L/R dash. Sub was way down. I opened up the LPF to 200Hz and cranked the gain up a bit. It never got to 60dB. Crossed the Lo/[email protected] 80Hz and the mid/high @ 3500Hz. Calibrated at that -25 value. When the MS-8 offers the all 3 speakers playing left and right before the calibration tones, it was dead on 60dB for both left and right. SL and SR were in the 50s. Calibration tones were a bit louder than I am used to. MS-8 volume was adjust post calibration to the normal -6. The result was no bass to speak of, mid or otherwise. Not much content/level coming from the front doors.
> 
> I then defeated the MS-8 processing and it came alive. Easily twice as loud and full of bass. (Bass was boomy). Hmmm....
> 
> I put some familiar music in the CD player and adjusted the Amp LPF and Amp Level by ear until the sub blended the best and still was noticeable.
> 
> I went to the output diagnostic of the MS-8 (adjusted the MS-08 to -25) and took multiple measurement around the Driver's head position for each of the MS-8 channels. I averaged Left and right to create a single curve for the Infinity 3.5" Dash speaker pair and a single curve for the 6.5" Silver Flutes in the front doors. Channel 8 (Black) is the 10" sub.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With the above starting point/levels and MS-8 settings:
> 
> Front HP: 20Hz/24dB slope
> Low / Mid Cross: 80Hz/24dB slope
> Mid / High Cross: 3500Hz/24dB slope (1KHz - 2KHz would probably be better)
> Side Hi Pass: 110Hz/24dB slope
> MS-8 Level during calibration: -35
> MS-8 Level post calibration: -6
> LPF of the sub amp set to 100Hz. (calibration and post calibration)
> Level of sub amp set to 10 o'clock (range is MIN=7 o'clock to MAX=5 o'clock).
> 
> I got another anemic calibration. Nothing to speak of from the front doors. Same sort of difference (much fuller sound)when I defeat MS-8 processing.
> 
> An REW sweep yields the following:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blue is the MS-8 processing the signal. Red is with Processing defeated.
> 
> A couple of months ago, I think I proved to myself that the Aux input on the MS-8 was yielding curves that were similar to using the HU as a source. So I think the MS-8 is unEQing the HU adequately.
> 
> Sorry for the painfully long post.
> 
> Where do I go from here?
> 
> Thanks


Why not make it easy and use the 31-band EQ to raise the midbass a bit and reduce the peak at 1k? Since MS-8 is obviously cutting the midbass, there's power left, even though you're using MS-8's amp for a little boost.


----------



## dengland

kaigoss69 said:


> For some reason the MS-8 lowers the midbass levels, perhaps due to a peak in the response of the woofers (this peak could be outside the passband!). This is what happened in my car, too. Only way to fix it that I know of is to amp the midbass. Then you can change the level post calibration. The amp will also give the option to eliminate some potential peaks by using the amp filters. Anyway the MS-8 built-in IC amps are not really capable of driving aftermarket woofers with authority, so this upgrade is probably necessary anyway.


I appreciate the reply. Been thinking about add amp at some point. I was really hoping to put it off a year and make it a nice bump in performance. I do get amazed at what those 20W ICs can do when they want to.




Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Why not make it easy and use the 31-band EQ to raise the midbass a bit and reduce the peak at 1k? Since MS-8 is obviously cutting the midbass, there's power left, even though you're using MS-8's amp for a little boost.


Thanks for the reply. I had been hesitant to make adjustments until I got it close 1st. I saw the 31 Band EQ as a fine adjustment tool.

I did as you suggested today. It looks as if the low end response matched the targeted response you previous reported. REW does not let me enter a LF rise slope of more than 6.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> LF Rise Start 160
> LF rise end 60
> LF rise slope (about 12)
> HF Fall Slope (about 1.6)


I think I penciled it in with the thick black line.










I made adjustments @ 200, 250, 315, 400, 500, 630, 800, 2.5K, 3.15K, and 8K based on what the graph showed rather than by ear. It sounds much better, but not the "awesome" that others report. 

I am going to live with it for a few days. Perhaps do a bit more by ear. It is still missing something, but definitely closer.

Thanks again.


----------



## 14642

The subwoofer level control in MS-8 is also a good tool to use to adjust the bass. It's not just a gain control for the sub channel, it's a shelf filter that's applied to all the channels that matches that low frequency rise. Boosts or cuts below 60 and never above 160 so the slope changes as you adjust.


----------



## 14642

I'd try one more thing. Swap the polarity of your subs and recalibrate. That may improve the midbass problem.


----------



## swargolet

@ dengland - If you are running active, then be very careful with using the output identification or really anything in the test menu as it bypasses all the MS-8's crossovers. I accidentally ruined about $700 worth of tweeters that way o: as I had my amp crossover turned off from previous testing. Make sure you have either a properly sized capacitor on the tweeter or a crossover set on the amp.


----------



## swargolet

I'm having an unusual issue that I'm hoping someone can help me with. I'm running 2-way active up front and my right midbass is making a strange metallic echoy sound. It is very obvious when there is just talking such as from navigation. I've verified that it isn't the amp or speaker. It is only present when playing through my stock headunit. If I play through the MS8 aux port it is not present.

The only recent change I made was I set my subs as front low, unhooked the center channel, and re-tuned.


----------



## camfreem7

Ok just wanted to double check something. I am going to omit my passive crossovers and run my front components active. Now two people in this thread have told me to use my 4 channel amp (70 x 4) to power my Focal FX mids and tweets and run my rears off the MS-8. However, two different shops (not that I trust them much) and someone in another thread told my 70 watts to my tweets would be too much so I should power them off my MS-8, can someone help me understand why I should do one or the other?

Also, I am worried that weather it is my rears or my tweets that are powered off the MS-8, they will be too quiet during calibration. Now I am already dealing with this with my center that is currently powered off the MS-8, so I turn down the gains before calibration then turn up after. However, I am worried that if I do this with the tweets or rears powered off the MS-8 that when I turn up the gains after calibration it will drowned out whichever ones are powered off the MS-8. I know the obvious answer to this is to get another amp but money is tight and it will be some time before I am able to do this. 

Any suggestions?

Also, my front left speakers keep going in and out when I go over bumps while driving, I thought this was due to a faulty RCA but have now found out this is not the case. Could it be my amp, MS-8, or other wiring problems? It seems to happen mostly after I have been driving/listening for awhile.


----------



## Lanson

Run away from a shop that thinks that way, bud. Just because an amp is capable of 70W doesn't mean it just pumps 70W into the tweeters all the time. These wattage numbers are virtually meaningless unless we're talking transient volume, instantaneous peaks and bursts like a drum hit, where you want a snappy, loud response _without_ a clipped output. The higher wattage capability, the better IMHO. But yeah, you don't need much on the rears because the MS-8 uses them as fill, and at a high crossover (shoot for 100 to 110 Hz)

On the wiring side, make sure you don't have a short in either the speaker coil or the wiring. Impossible to diagnose over a web forum.



camfreem7 said:


> Ok just wanted to double check something. I am going to omit my passive crossovers and run my front components active. Now two people in this thread have told me to use my 4 channel amp (70 x 4) to power my Focal FX mids and tweets and run my rears off the MS-8. However, two different shops (not that I trust them much) and someone in another thread told my 70 watts to my tweets would be too much so I should power them off my MS-8, can someone help me understand why I should do one or the other?
> 
> Also, I am worried that weather it is my rears or my tweets that are powered off the MS-8, they will be too quiet during calibration. Now I am already dealing with this with my center that is currently powered off the MS-8, so I turn down the gains before calibration then turn up after. However, I am worried that if I do this with the tweets or rears powered off the MS-8 that when I turn up the gains after calibration it will drowned out whichever ones are powered off the MS-8. I know the obvious answer to this is to get another amp but money is tight and it will be some time before I am able to do this.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> Also, my front left speakers keep going in and out when I go over bumps while driving, I thought this was due to a faulty RCA but have now found out this is not the case. Could it be my amp, MS-8, or other wiring problems? It seems to happen mostly after I have been driving/listening for awhile.


----------



## dengland

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The subwoofer level control in MS-8 is also a good tool to use to adjust the bass. It's not just a gain control for the sub channel, it's a shelf filter that's applied to all the channels that matches that low frequency rise. Boosts or cuts below 60 and never above 160 so the slope changes as you adjust.


Yep. Been using that. Previously, you had explained that somewhere that I picked up on.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'd try one more thing. Swap the polarity of your subs and recalibrate. That may improve the midbass problem.


Finally got some time. I swapped the polarity going to the sub as suggested and did a calibration. The result/comparison is below.










Same general shape of the sweep. Blue trace is the new calibration with sub polarity swapped. I also moved the mid/high cross to 1.5Khz. (from 3.5KHz). Red trace is the 1-19 calibration WITHOUT 31-Band adjustment.


----------



## dengland

dengland said:


> I think I penciled it in with the thick black line.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I made adjustments @ 200, 250, 315, 400, 500, 630, 800, 2.5K, 3.15K, and 8K based on what the graph showed rather than by ear. It sounds much better, but not the "awesome" that others report.
> 
> I am going to live with it for a few days. Perhaps do a bit more by ear. It is still missing something, but definitely closer.
> 
> Thanks again.


This is the what the 31-band adjustments looked like.










Black trace is the 1-19 as the MS-8 wants to make it. Red trace is after the adjustments from above were made. Blue trace is how I have been listening - frequency adjustments above plus the Sub shelf adjusted 6 clicks to the right.

Adjustments were:
200Hz +10
250Hz +8
315Hz +10
400Hz +5
500Hz -2
630Hz -7
800Hz -5
2.5KHz +5
3.15KHz +5
8KHz +10

Looks like I could have used more between 200 and 400Hz.

From the previous post, the 1-31 calibration with sub polarity swapped got me about 4dB closer in that range.


----------



## Lanson

Is that big suckout at 200-350 or so maybe a function of your car?


----------



## subwoofery

fourthmeal said:


> Is that big suckout at 200-350 or so maybe a function of your car?


Or 1 midbass is in reverse polarity... 

Kelvin


----------



## dengland

subwoofery said:


> Or 1 midbass is in reverse polarity...
> 
> Kelvin


I think I worked through the phase stuff here:


dengland said:


> See post 4 and post 5


----------



## subwoofery

dengland said:


> I think I worked through the phase stuff here:


If you did the in phase/out of phase thing BEFORE the calibration, how's it sounding now AFTER the calibration? Still in phase? 

Kelvin


----------



## camfreem7

fourthmeal said:


> Run away from a shop that thinks that way, bud. Just because an amp is capable of 70W doesn't mean it just pumps 70W into the tweeters all the time. These wattage numbers are virtually meaningless unless we're talking transient volume, instantaneous peaks and bursts like a drum hit, where you want a snappy, loud response _without_ a clipped output. The higher wattage capability, the better IMHO. But yeah, you don't need much on the rears because the MS-8 uses them as fill, and at a high crossover (shoot for 100 to 110 Hz)
> 
> On the wiring side, make sure you don't have a short in either the speaker coil or the wiring. Impossible to diagnose over a web forum.


OK awesome this is very helpful, and that doesn't sound good for my speaker. hopefully its just a wiring issue. I'll have to take to back to the shop that did the install and see if they can figure it out. Appreciate the help


----------



## ankit1986

Hi, I finally got Ms-8 installed yesterday. Not very happy with the output - not blaming Ms-8 for it (before you come after me). Blaming my lack of knowledge here  and hence need your help.

I have below setup 

Front 2 way active
Side 2 way passive
Sub

All are powered by external amp
Below is how it's connected

Ms-8
Channel 1 - left twitter
Channel 2 - right twitter
Channel 3 - Left mid
Channel 4 - right mid
Channel 5 - Side left
Channel 6 - Side right
Channel 7 - sub
Channel 8 - sub

Have tried two configurations while calibration
1. Selecting sub as none and 3 way active front
2. Selecting 2 sub and assigning both 7,8 channels to sub

Issue with 1st config where I select 3 way active - I don't hear my sub playing at all. Also during sweeps, I don't hear that sub sound which comes at the end of every sweep

Issue with 2nd config where I select 2 sub - Sub is booming and not to my liking. 

Another thing - I don't have center, so when I set logic 7 active - it appears that sound is suppressed and is coming from front right and front left (is it because no center? and stage is skewed?) Rear is almost non-existent

When I set logic 7 off, rear starts playing but that sense of space is gone now. Stage is better.

How do I solve the issue? How is everyone without center setting it up?

Thanks


----------



## Ryanu

ankit1986 said:


> Hi, I finally got Ms-8 installed yesterday. Not very happy with the output - not blaming Ms-8 for it (before you come after me). Blaming my lack of knowledge here  and hence need your help.
> 
> I have below setup
> 
> Front 2 way active
> Side 2 way passive
> Sub
> 
> All are powered by external amp
> Below is how it's connected
> 
> Ms-8
> Channel 1 - left twitter
> Channel 2 - right twitter
> Channel 3 - Left mid
> Channel 4 - right mid
> Channel 5 - Side left
> Channel 6 - Side right
> Channel 7 - sub
> Channel 8 - sub
> 
> Have tried two configurations while calibration
> 1. Selecting sub as none and 3 way active front
> 2. Selecting 2 sub and assigning both 7,8 channels to sub
> 
> Issue with 1st config where I select 3 way active - I don't hear my sub playing at all. Also during sweeps, I don't hear that sub sound which comes at the end of every sweep
> 
> Issue with 2nd config where I select 2 sub - Sub is booming and not to my liking.
> 
> Another thing - I don't have center, so when I set logic 7 active - it appears that sound is suppressed and is coming from front right and front left (is it because no center? and stage is skewed?) Rear is almost non-existent
> 
> When I set logic 7 off, rear starts playing but that sense of space is gone now. Stage is better.
> 
> How do I solve the issue? How is everyone without center setting it up?
> 
> Thanks


First of all, how many sub/s are u running? During the initial setup, if u were using 2 subs, select 2, if one then select 1.

Front will be 2 way, side will be 1 way.

Channels are assigned properly by looking at what u have mentioned. The only thing to verify that is test it, select ch1 and verify whether left tweeter is playing the pink noise.. etc etc.. good luck!


----------



## ankit1986

Two of my channels are going into sub. So even though am running 1 sub, it is taking input from 2 channels from ms-8

During test, everything was working fine. I will make sure to check each channel individually again- before sending pink noise to tweeters, I will set crossover in amp right? 

What else you think can be wrong in the setup?

Thanks


----------



## dengland

subwoofery said:


> If you did the in phase/out of phase thing BEFORE the calibration, how's it sounding now AFTER the calibration? Still in phase?
> 
> Kelvin


Thanks for the post. Sorry if I was unclear. Let me try and not reference a different post....

In August I suspected that have a phase issue with all of the wiring changes I did to install the MS-8. Using and external (non car) amp I rang out all of the wiring to speakers in the truck. Left dash versus right dash, Left Dash versus Center dash, left front door versus right front door, left front door versus left dash, left front door versus sub, etc. 










The results were:

Dash Left and Right were in phase with each other.
Front Door Left and Right were in phase with each other.
Rear Door Left and Right were in phase with each other.

Dash Right and Dash Left were in Phase with Center.
Dash Right and Front Door Right were OUT of phase with each other.
Dash Right and Rear Door Right were OUT of phase with each other.
Front Door Right and Rear Door Right were IN phase with each other.
Front Door Right and Sub were OUT of phase with each other.
Rear Door Right and Sub were OUT of phase with each other.

So, Front Doors and Rear Doors were opposite how I initially labeled and connected them.

I made the appropriate corrections in AUGUST. Lots of calibrations since then.

Per Andy's suggestion about 6 days ago, I intentionally (as far as I know) made the sub amplifier output wiring OUT OF PHASE with the rest of the vehicle speakers and recalibrated yesterday. There was no difference IMHO.

*Just thought of something... I replaced the front door OEM speakers with 6.5". So, I have touched the wiring since I rang everything out in August. Better go verify again...*

Thanks for the suggestion. Off to check....


----------



## dengland

ankit1986 said:


> What else you think can be wrong in the setup?
> 
> Thanks


Lots of posts here about getting the levels correct with external amps BEFORE running calibrations on the MS-8. Have you done that?


----------



## ankit1986

I figured what was wrong -

I selected 3 way active front and set sub as low. 
It asked for high pass frequency, low mid xover, mid-high xover

I didn't understand what was high pass, so selected it same as low mid xover, because of which sub wasn't playing at all. I this time selected 20hz for high pass instead of 80hz (selected before) and I can hear sub playing well.

I now just need to play with these frequency settings - have already setup target curve which Andy suggested in this thread.

I also need to try removing mic before hitting "done" to get best output from ms-8.


----------



## dengland

dengland said:


> *Just thought of something... I replaced the front door OEM speakers with 6.5". So, I have touched the wiring since I rang everything out in August. Better go verify again...*
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion. Off to check....


I decided my front doors were out of phase with one another. I further decided that sub phase reversal that I did yesterday was needed as well.

Here is the resulting calibration.










A little less adjustments to make in the 200-400 range. A bit wider attenuation to make 400-1Khz range.


----------



## kaigoss69

ankit1986 said:


> Have tried two configurations while calibration
> 1. Selecting sub as none and 3 way active front
> 2. Selecting 2 sub and assigning both 7,8 channels to sub
> 
> Issue with 1st config where I select 3 way active - I don't hear my sub playing at all. Also during sweeps, I don't hear that sub sound which comes at the end of every sweep


Do number 1. You should definitely hear the sweeps when it sets T/A (first set of sweeps). If you don't hear the sweeps through the subs, check your wiring or amp gains. Remember, in 3-way active you assign FL-Lo and FR-Lo to the outputs going to the sub amp (you must use two RCAs). Set the amp gain such that the sweeps are a tad lower than the fronts because L&R will get summed by the sub amp and therefore will be louder when playing music. Also, it helps to set the amp LPF to the same setting as the MS-8 LPF because it will prevent the sweeps playing louder above the MS-8 passband (which would reduce the sub levels).


----------



## kaigoss69

dengland said:


> I decided my front doors were out of phase with one another. I further decided that sub phase reversal that I did yesterday was needed as well.
> 
> Here is the resulting calibration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A little less adjustments to make in the 200-400 range. A bit wider attenuation to make 400-1Khz range.


Still looks a bit fugly but should be good after EQ.


----------



## ankit1986

kaigoss69 said:


> Do number 1. You should definitely hear the sweeps when it sets T/A (first set of sweeps). If you don't hear the sweeps through the subs, check your wiring or amp gains. Remember, in 3-way active you assign FL-Lo and FR-Lo to the outputs going to the sub amp (you must use two RCAs). Set the amp gain such that the sweeps are a tad lower than the fronts because L&R will get summed by the sub amp and therefore will be louder when playing music. Also, it helps to set the amp LPF to the same setting as the MS-8 LPF because it will prevent the sweeps playing louder above the MS-8 passband (which would reduce the sub levels).


Thanks Kaigoss. You have helped me immensely in setting this up. I am very happy with the sound quality now. 

My stage is slightly more towards the passenger side. How do I change the direction I look into, during sweeps, to bring it more towards driver and hence right at center?

Thanks


----------



## kaigoss69

^^^ lean a little to the right during the first set of sweeps only.


----------



## ankit1986

kaigoss69 said:


> ^^^ lean a little to the right during the first set of sweeps only.


When you say first set of sweeps only, you mean sweeps for driver seat or sweep when it says to look forward twice?

When you say right, you mean towards passenger side? I am in India and we have driver's seat on the right, so wish to make sure I understand


----------



## kaigoss69

Yes the first of the "look forward" sweeps, thus is where T/A is set. To get the image closer to the drivers side you need to lean towards the passenger side.


----------



## subwoofery

dengland said:


> Thanks for the post. Sorry if I was unclear. Let me try and not reference a different post....
> 
> In August I suspected that have a phase issue with all of the wiring changes I did to install the MS-8. Using and external (non car) amp I rang out all of the wiring to speakers in the truck. Left dash versus right dash, Left Dash versus Center dash, left front door versus right front door, left front door versus left dash, left front door versus sub, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The results were:
> 
> Dash Left and Right were in phase with each other.
> Front Door Left and Right were in phase with each other.
> Rear Door Left and Right were in phase with each other.
> 
> Dash Right and Dash Left were in Phase with Center.
> Dash Right and Front Door Right were OUT of phase with each other.
> Dash Right and Rear Door Right were OUT of phase with each other.
> Front Door Right and Rear Door Right were IN phase with each other.
> Front Door Right and Sub were OUT of phase with each other.
> Rear Door Right and Sub were OUT of phase with each other.
> 
> So, Front Doors and Rear Doors were opposite how I initially labeled and connected them.
> 
> I made the appropriate corrections in AUGUST. Lots of calibrations since then.
> 
> Per Andy's suggestion about 6 days ago, I intentionally (as far as I know) made the sub amplifier output wiring OUT OF PHASE with the rest of the vehicle speakers and recalibrated yesterday. There was no difference IMHO.
> 
> *Just thought of something... I replaced the front door OEM speakers with 6.5". So, I have touched the wiring since I rang everything out in August. Better go verify again...*
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion. Off to check....


What I don't know is if you checked your IN and OUT of phase sound BEFORE or AFTER the calibration? I suspect you did it BEFORE. 

Most of the time, door speakers are OUT OF PHASE acoustically before you use T/A. 

If it's IN PHASE before the calibration, polarity might not be correct... I said might coz I don't know your car. 

Kelvin


----------



## swargolet

swargolet said:


> I'm having an unusual issue that I'm hoping someone can help me with. I'm running 2-way active up front and my right midbass is making a strange metallic echoy sound. It is very obvious when there is just talking such as from navigation. I've verified that it isn't the amp or speaker. It is only present when playing through my stock headunit. If I play through the MS8 aux port it is not present.
> 
> The only recent change I made was I set my subs as front low, unhooked the center channel, and re-tuned.


Anyone ever experience this before?


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

swargolet said:


> Anyone ever experience this before?


I have not, but if I had to guess I would say that there is a problem with the Input Calibration. (Or a potential wiring error.)

I say that because you said that it sounds good with the AUX Input. That leads me to believe that there is something going on in the calibration that makes the MS-8 think that there needs to be a delay on an input channel, creating the 'echo' sound you are hearing.

If it were me, I would review the wiring to make sure that everything was done correctly, then reset the MS-8 and perform the Input calibration again, then go from there.

Good luck.


----------



## dengland

swargolet said:


> Anyone ever experience this before?


I have had something similar happen back in November. Post calibration, the Side Right had a constant buzz @250Hz that did not change with the HU volume change. Playing music would overcome the buzz, but it was still there.

I think this is just a measure of the ambient noise in the cabin. Been awhile since I took this measurement so I don't remember all of the details.










I reran the calibration and the problem went away. I had that happen one time previously. Not sure if it was the same speaker or not.


----------



## swargolet

Thanks. I'll try a recalibration and double check the wiring. The weird thing is that this is something new. I've had this setup for over 2 years now and have never had anything like this. Everything in my system is connected via quick disconnects, so it is unlikely that it is a wiring issue, but I'll re-seat all the connectors.


----------



## Lanson

You don't have the mic connected still, do you??


----------



## swargolet

fourthmeal said:


> You don't have the mic connected still, do you??


Nope. I've heard a similar effect on my computer before where certain sounds have a metallic echo to them. I wonder if it has something to do with the Digital->Analog conversion


----------



## camfreem7

So I have been reading in the MS-8 FAQ about the evils of reflections in a car so I want to move my tweeters from their factory dash locations to the sail panels. However, my sails are really small and the only way I am thinking I can do it without spending a ton of money on custom panels is to do this:

My Focals come with these extra tweeter mounts:










Now, if I flip these on their sides, they fit perfectly into my small sail panels, this is the best picture I could find:










However, I did this the tweets would be firing straight back, like the driver side one would be aimed practically directly at my left shoulder? Is this a bad idea because of the direction they would be firing, and would I be better leaving them in the corner of the dash firing up at the windshield until I can get custom panels made?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated


----------



## kyheng

camfreem7 said:


> So I have been reading in the MS-8 FAQ about the evils of reflections in a car so I want to move my tweeters from their factory dash locations to the sail panels. However, my sails are really small and the only way I am thinking I can do it without spending a ton of money on custom panels is to do this:
> 
> My Focals come with these extra tweeter mounts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, if I flip these on their sides, they fit perfectly into my small sail panels, this is the best picture I could find:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, I did this the tweets would be firing straight back, like the driver side one would be aimed practically directly at my left shoulder? Is this a bad idea because of the direction they would be firing, and would I be better leaving them in the corner of the dash firing up at the windshield until I can get custom panels made?
> 
> Any insight would be greatly appreciated


I would try aiming the tweeters to the rear view mirror.


----------



## MetricMuscle

camfreem7 said:


> So I have been reading in the MS-8 FAQ about the evils of reflections in a car so I want to move my tweeters from their factory dash locations to the sail panels.
> 
> Any insight would be greatly appreciated


I'm not sure which thread you have been reading but sail panels are usually worse for reflections than a proper dash location.

What I've gleaned from the various discussions on reflections is that in a car we don't eliminate them, we manage them and try to minimize or use them to our advantage.
The slope of the windshield and back glass in a car mimics a horn shape. If any driver is placed as close as possible into the corner where the glass and dash meet, the reflections will be managed in the same way a horn does.
Up firing is possible but also aimed directly at the listener can work as long as the baffle or front of the driver being used is pushed all the way into the corner and there is no path around it, the baffle extends from glass to dash.
I'd try that before messing with the sails.

What do your factory dash locations look like?


----------



## MetricMuscle

So just that small grilled area on the dash?










Pretty slick and clean looking.

Try putting the tweeters in those cone shaped pods, put them on the dash, pushed all the way into the corner of glass/dash/A-pillar, aimed at the driver side listening position. Right tweeter aimed at right ear and left aimed at left ear. Push some rags around the pod for support and to seal off the area around and behind the face of the tweeter.
See how this sounds.
Then try the sails too. 
Try all sorts of locations.
Try to get them closer to the mid to see if that sounds better.


----------



## camfreem7

Ok I will definitely start trying out all those locations, and just to clarify, in that picture the main thing you see is the center channel grill so I don't know if that's what you are pointing out, but you can actually see the passenger tweeter in the corner of that pic if you look closely. Here is a little better pic of the driver location (not my car)

20140601_020103_zpsa53919b1.jpg Photo by customaudioman | Photobucket

Learning that the corner of the dash is actually a pretty good location makes me feel better as they do sound pretty good there (though I have nothing to compare it to, yet). In the FAQ thread Andy was just talking about reflections in general so I just assumed reflecting off the glass would be one of such reflections, but good to know they are not that bad.


----------



## MetricMuscle

camfreem7 said:


> Learning that the corner of the dash is actually a pretty good location makes me feel better as they do sound pretty good there (though I have nothing to compare it to, yet). In the FAQ thread Andy was just talking about reflections in general so I just assumed reflecting off the glass would be one of such reflections, but good to know they are not that bad.


Hold up, wait a minute.

All types of reflections can be bad if they are timed wrong.
If the speaker is pushed into the corner then the reflections move out of that corner in a better, more manageable way just like a horn. The more you can mount a speaker like it is in the corner of a horn, the better.

When they are on the pillars, some reflections are off of the windshield, the dash, the driver's door window, the passenger's door window etc. Since these surfaces are different distances from the speaker and at different angles, the sound is reflected to the listener at different times. This is bad.

The OE tweeter location is pretty good, very close to the corner. Just be honest with yourself when you experiment.


----------



## dengland

subwoofery said:


> What I don't know is if you checked your IN and OUT of phase sound BEFORE or AFTER the calibration? I suspect you did it BEFORE.
> 
> Most of the time, door speakers are OUT OF PHASE acoustically before you use T/A.
> 
> If it's IN PHASE before the calibration, polarity might not be correct... I said might coz I don't know your car.
> 
> Kelvin


Thanks Kelvin, sorry for the delayed response. 

I made an opinion on the In-Phase/Out-of-Phase by driving the speakers directly (bypassing the HU and the MS-8). I swapped one of my front door speakers, I left the sub polarity swapped. Then, I ran a calibration. (the one shown earlier with the 2-1-15 date.)

I listened all week and I think I have a phase issue now with the entire sound chain involved (HU-->MS8-->Speakers).

I definitely have the best bass and mid-bass of any calibration to date, however the image is not consistently in front of me. The different "phase check" audio sources behave a bit differently to me. It may be because of the frequency bands that the content is in and the 4 different cross over points involved with the 7 different active speakers.

With this one 

Online Stereo Polarity (Phase) Sound Test 

if I set processing to "defeat" the 75Hz signal gets a bit louder. If processing is active, the Sides are playing quite a bit. I need to systematically write down what I am hearing. Feels like I have too many things going on and I am not thinking it through clearly.

I have ordered this:

FH-168 Car Phase Testing Meter for Speaker / Amplifier - Black - Free Shipping - DealExtreme 

to help. It sort of looks like it is coming from China, so I am not sure how long it will take to get here.


----------



## tbomb

MetricMuscle said:


> I'm not sure which thread you have been reading but sail panels are usually worse for reflections than a proper dash location.
> 
> What I've gleaned from the various discussions on reflections is that in a car we don't eliminate them, we manage them and try to minimize or use them to our advantage.
> The slope of the windshield and back glass in a car mimics a horn shape. If any driver is placed as close as possible into the corner where the glass and dash meet, the reflections will be managed in the same way a horn does.
> Up firing is possible but also aimed directly at the listener can work as long as the baffle or front of the driver being used is pushed all the way into the corner and there is no path around it, the baffle extends from glass to dash.
> I'd try that before messing with the sails.
> 
> What do your factory dash locations look like?


You have trippled your source of reflections by mounting on the dash, which exponentially increases how many reflected sounds reach your ear. in the sail panel or upper door you greatly reduce the NEGATIVE effect the windshield has.

Andy has gone over this several times.


----------



## subwoofery

tbomb said:


> You have trippled your source of reflections by mounting on the dash, which exponentially increases how many reflected sounds reach your ear. in the sail panel or upper door you greatly reduce the NEGATIVE effect the windshield has.
> 
> Andy has gone over this several times.


Thank you. 

Kelvin


----------



## camfreem7

tbomb said:


> You have trippled your source of reflections by mounting on the dash, which exponentially increases how many reflected sounds reach your ear. in the sail panel or upper door you greatly reduce the NEGATIVE effect the windshield has.
> 
> Andy has gone over this several times.


This is what I thought I had read in the MS-8 FAQ so thanks for clarifying. If Andy himself could weigh in I would feel even better as I'm sure we all know he is quite an authority on all this. I know I still need to just experiment and see for myself though but thanks for the guidance guys.


----------



## kaigoss69

I believe Andy has stated that the best place for tweeters is high up in the doors, and that the next best place is the sail panels.


----------



## t3sn4f2

kaigoss69 said:


> I believe Andy has stated that the best place for tweeters is high up in the doors, and that the next best place is the sail panels.


The mids (smaller ones so they're omni-directional within the intended passband) are the ones that he recommends go in the top forward part of the door. In order for them to be far from the seating position and at the same time to the sides enough for an acceptable stereo azimuth angle. As well as being away from any adjacent reflective panels (ie dash and windshield).

The tweeters go in the sails for an even wider angle and greater PLD. Plus they play the range that dictates stage height for the most part, so it also helps that that location is higher up. Reflections there are a compromise but still better than any other location. They can be aimed as well which helps.


----------



## MetricMuscle

tbomb said:


> You have trippled your source of reflections by mounting on the dash, which exponentially increases how many reflected sounds reach your ear. in the sail panel or upper door you greatly reduce the NEGATIVE effect the windshield has.
> 
> Andy has gone over this several times.





kaigoss69 said:


> I believe Andy has stated that the best place for tweeters is high up in the doors, and that the next best place is the sail panels.


I must have missed this part or paid more attention to a different discussion. I can see how the upper door will avoid some reflections but not the sail panel and more importantly varied reflections which are what makes for bad sound. The sail location will reflect more off of the door glass than the dash location will.

Might anyone have a link to where Andy discussed this?
I don't wanna take this thread too off track.


----------



## subwoofery

MetricMuscle said:


> I must have missed this part or paid more attention to a different discussion. I can see how the upper door will avoid some reflections but not the sail panel and more importantly varied reflections which are what makes for bad sound. The sail location will reflect more off of the door glass than the dash location will.
> 
> Might anyone have a link to where Andy discussed this?
> I don't wanna take this thread too off track.


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq-4.html 

Page 4 and 5 has all the info you need. 

Andy said once, spreading the chaos for a good power response is not the same thing as spreading as much chaos as possible  

Kelvin


----------



## MetricMuscle

subwoofery said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq-4.html
> 
> Page 4 and 5 has all the info you need.
> 
> Andy said once, spreading the chaos for a good power response is not the same thing as spreading as much chaos as possible
> 
> Kelvin


Thanks for the link.
Some of that sounds familiar.
It must have been a discussion with both Andy and Patrick that I remember spending more time reading.

My front stage is very similar to what Andy was using when he posted most of that stuff circa 2011 in his Volvo.
6" woofer down low on the door.
3" mid up high on the door in front of the door handle.
Tweeter either on the door near the mid or on the sail panel.
Seems to be some disagreement whether the tweeter needs to be aimed "on-axis" or not. My OE arrangement has a tweeter on the sail aimed across the dash. I'll stick with that first before cutting another hole in my door.

So, at what frequency will a 6" woofer start to beam?
Better yet, what is the formula to determine this since it is based on diameter?


----------



## Lanson

MetricMuscle said:


> Thanks for the link.
> Some of that sounds familiar.
> It must have been a discussion with both Andy and Patrick that I remember spending more time reading.
> 
> My front stage is very similar to what Andy was using when he posted most of that stuff circa 2011 in his Volvo.
> 6" woofer down low on the door.
> 3" mid up high on the door in front of the door handle.
> Tweeter either on the door near the mid or on the sail panel.
> Seems to be some disagreement whether the tweeter needs to be aimed "on-axis" or not. My OE arrangement has a tweeter on the sail aimed across the dash. I'll stick with that first before cutting another hole in my door.
> 
> So, at what frequency will a 6" woofer start to beam?
> Better yet, what is the formula to determine this since it is based on diameter?



Beaming info I've kept bookmarked over the years:

Hawthorne Audio • View topic - How to calculate driver beaming frequency.

Note that for some people, this is too conservative and that beaming begins sooner, and I agree but I think this is the "break point" where a noticeable change happens. I planned my Flex build around the principals shown in that thread, and it turned out great.
edit:
Oh and I'm on the lookout for an MS-8 so if anybody is considering going with something else, please visit my classifieds thread and chat w/ me there.


----------



## crazhorse

does the MS8 save eq changes when you save a favorite ? I saved a couple of favorites after changing eq settings and it doesnt appear to have saved my eq settings...


----------



## MetricMuscle

camfreem7 said:


> This is what I thought I had read in the MS-8 FAQ so thanks for clarifying. If Andy himself could weigh in I would feel even better as I'm sure we all know he is quite an authority on all this. I know I still need to just experiment and see for myself though but thanks for the guidance guys.


Sorry for the bad information. It's a bit more complicated than I had previously thought.
Where will you mount the new mid?
Your doors are kinda skinny up top, might have to go smaller than 3".

Does Andy discuss how to best go about installing just a 2-way up front?
Most of what I read discussed a 3-way and his install in his Volvo.
I did like the part about his chicken recipe though.


----------



## thehatedguy

With a center- midbass in the doors and tweeters in the sail panels, or a waveguide on the upper door panel as this is physically as wide as you can get in the car.

Without a center and one seat....probably doors again. Then kickpanels.


----------



## Lanson

Hey real quick, I've got an MS-8 in my shopping cart in Amazon, for $439 incl 2 day prime ship.

I just wanted to check, is that pretty much the best price I can expect from a vendor that would eagerly take it back if it is DOA or has issues?

I mean I've had my Ms-8 in my Flex build (x2) for years, no issues, but to me the few bucks extra at Amazon seem like they'd be worth it to reduce the potential stress of a bad egg.

I have t-minus about 3 hours to decide, so I can get it shipped and in my hands by Friday to install over the weekend. Worth pulling the trigger for that?

edit: this one would be for my Focus ST build I'm hammering on lately.


----------



## SQLnovice

SE has it for $408.00. Don't know if you want to give them a shot. They have it as "make an offer." I just offered $375 and they came back with $408.00


----------



## Lanson

You're right, they do. I am going that route because I forgot, there's an "amazon tax" nowadays. Thanks, lawmakers.

edit:

Went forward and placed an order at Sonic, for $410 which was immediately accepted. With the Amazon tax, the total price was inching up in the $500 range. Nothanks.


----------



## talan7

I inadvertently touched my 12 volt out screw on my ms8 with my pocket knife and there was a spark. Now, neither my ms8 or my 4c amp will turn on. My sub amp comes on intermittently but I have no sound whatsoever. I changed the fuse on the ms8 but it didn't help. I also checked the fuses on the other amps and the inline fuses under the hood. Is my ms8 blown.


----------



## MetricMuscle

If I were using MS-8 and a JBL MS-A1004 amplifier to power my sub and mid-bass drivers, could I also use the wireless remote bass control knob or does MS-8 not like that?


----------



## talan7

MetricMuscle said:


> If I were using MS-8 and a JBL MS-A1004 amplifier to power my sub and mid-bass drivers, could I also use the wireless remote bass control knob or does MS-8 not like that?


I have the wireless bass control with my ms8 and ms 1004, ms1005 and it works


----------



## Elgrosso

Really? That was my goal too, when I tried I was only able to link one amp at a time (and jbl comfirmed by email).
Does it move the cursor on your ms8 display? Thx


----------



## FordEscape

2014 Ford Escape non-Sony OEM HU with modest Alpine SPS-610c component 2-way in front door/sailplanes and rear doors (all OEM locations). Alpine PWE-S8 powered sub under driver seat. Nothing fancy, a bit better than OEM and to my price-point.

I originally installed my MS-8 configured with front 1-way (2-way component speakers with passive X-over); side 1-way; underseat powered sub configured as "sub" with splitter RCA out of MS-8 channel 8; no center no rear.

Finally got around to reconfiguration:
1. Pulled passive X-over from front component 2-ways & installed protective capacitor on tweeters; ran dedicated wires from tweeters to MS-8.
2. Ran separate RCA from MS-8 channel 7 & 8 to L/R inputs on the powered sub.
3. Reset to factory defaults and reconfigured from scratch per Kaigoss69: F Hi to tweeters, F Mid to doors, F Lo to sub, S 1-way to rear doors.
4. Sub gain and all filters/slopes set strictly per Andy/JBL starting-point recommendations as was the original setup.

Suddenly and finally I feel I've got my money's worth with the MS-8.... wonderful midrange, nice bass, overbearing treble is gone. Whether due to the separation of the tweeters or configuration of sub as F Lo or a combination of the two, the result is great.

*Thanks all for the tips.*

Attached if interested is a PDF of the reference document I built for my use as I read this thread. Up thru thread page 407 it includes almost exclusively Andy Wehmeyer's posts without the redundant posts, questions and non-substantive commentary. 84 pages of all-meat about the MS-8 and its implementation.


----------



## vinnny

Awesome ^^^


----------



## talan7

Elgrosso said:


> Really? That was my goal too, when I tried I was only able to link one amp at a time (and jbl comfirmed by email).
> Does it move the cursor on your ms8 display? Thx


I had the mono amp and bass knob installed earlier before I got my ms8. When they installed the ms8 and 4c amp they left the knob the way it was. I believe it's just connects to the sub amp


----------



## kaigoss69

MetricMuscle said:


> If I were using MS-8 and a JBL MS-A1004 amplifier to power my sub and mid-bass drivers, could I also use the wireless remote bass control knob or does MS-8 not like that?


I'm doing this with my PG Ti2 amp, and I love the ability to _just_ increase the sub output, and not the sub and midbass combined. Reason is that the MS-8 "sub" level setting also increases midbass output, and I am not always comfortable with the woofers getting all that power, since my amp is capable of putting out 400W per side, and the woofers are only rated for 200W. 

At the same time, increasing the sub level will pull the sub stage back, but at least I can adjust the knob on the fly to the setting I feel like with every song. Sometimes I don't care about the staging, because I just want slamming bass, other times I want it to blend perfectly so the knob stays close to zero gain.


----------



## kaigoss69

FordEscape said:


> 2014 Ford Escape non-Sony OEM HU with modest Alpine SPS-610c component 2-way in front door/sailplanes and rear doors (all OEM locations). Alpine PWE-S8 powered sub under driver seat. Nothing fancy, a bit better than OEM and to my price-point.
> 
> I originally installed my MS-8 configured with front 1-way (2-way component speakers with passive X-over); side 1-way; underseat powered sub configured as "sub" with splitter RCA out of MS-8 channel 8; no center no rear.
> 
> Finally got around to reconfiguration:
> 1. Pulled passive X-over from front component 2-ways & installed protective capacitor on tweeters; ran dedicated wires from tweeters to MS-8.
> 2. Ran separate RCA from MS-8 channel 7 & 8 to L/R inputs on the powered sub.
> 3. Reset to factory defaults and reconfigured from scratch per Kaigoss69: F Hi to tweeters, F Mid to doors, F Lo to sub, S 1-way to rear doors.
> 4. Sub gain and all filters/slopes set strictly per Andy/JBL starting-point recommendations as was the original setup.
> 
> Suddenly and finally I feel I've got my money's worth with the MS-8.... wonderful midrange, nice bass, overbearing treble is gone. Whether due to the separation of the tweeters or configuration of sub as F Lo or a combination of the two, the result is great.
> 
> *Thanks all for the tips.*
> 
> Attached if interested is a PDF of the reference document I built for my use as I read this thread. Up thru thread page 407 it includes almost exclusively Andy Wehmeyer's posts without the redundant posts, questions and non-substantive commentary. 84 pages of all-meat about the MS-8 and its implementation.


Great, I think running the front stage active gives the processor more ability to make corrections. In your case, and many others, the tweeters were not attenuated enough by the passive crossovers, and the processor was not able to make all the necessary corrections through EQ alone. Now, running active, in addition to EQ the processor can also change the _*level*_ going to the tweeters, which is what apparently makes all the difference.


----------



## talan7

Can anyone help me troubleshoot my lack of turn on? I touched my remote out to other amps on my ms8 with my pocket knife. The metal caused a spark and now nothing turns on. Neither the ms8 nor the other amps. I replaced the fuse on the ms8 but to no avail. I checked the fuses on the other 2 amps and they look good, so do my inline fuses under the hood. Would disconnecting the ms8 from power and then reconnecting help? How would I go about that? Diconnect the battery or unscrew the fuses connected to the battery? I need help, I'm driving around with no sound at all, not even turn signal sounds. It's driving me crazy.


----------



## kaigoss69

talan7 said:


> Can anyone help me troubleshoot my lack of turn on? I touched my remote out to other amps on my ms8 with my pocket knife. The metal caused a spark and now nothing turns on. Neither the ms8 nor the other amps. I replaced the fuse on the ms8 but to no avail. I checked the fuses on the other 2 amps and they look good, so do my inline fuses under the hood. Would disconnecting the ms8 from power and then reconnecting help? How would I go about that? Diconnect the battery or unscrew the fuses connected to the battery? I need help, I'm driving around with no sound at all, not even turn signal sounds. It's driving me crazy.


Doesn't sound good! I don't know what to tell you, besides pulling the power to the unit and hoping it will reset itself somehow....


----------



## JVD240

Run your remote wire directly to your amps. Do they power on? You have to systematically isolate the problem.


----------



## MetricMuscle

talan7 said:


> I'm driving around with no sound at all, not even turn signal sounds. It's driving me crazy.


Is your head unit coming on?
Sounds like you aren't getting power from the head unit if it's an OE head unit and turn signal sounds come from it.
Check that fuse too.


----------



## thehatedguy

Have you reset the processor?


----------



## Elgrosso

talan7 said:


> I had the mono amp and bass knob installed earlier before I got my ms8. When they installed the ms8 and 4c amp they left the knob the way it was. I believe it's just connects to the sub amp


Thx for the confirmation!
But sorry for your crash :/
It seems strange that all amps will die in the same time.



kaigoss69 said:


> I'm doing this with my PG Ti2 amp, and I love the ability to _just_ increase the sub output, and not the sub and midbass combined. Reason is that the MS-8 "sub" level setting also increases midbass output, and I am not always comfortable with the woofers getting all that power, since my amp is capable of putting out 400W per side, and the woofers are only rated for 200W.
> 
> At the same time, increasing the sub level will pull the sub stage back, but at least I can adjust the knob on the fly to the setting I feel like with every song. Sometimes I don't care about the staging, because I just want slamming bass, other times I want it to blend perfectly so the knob stays close to zero gain.


I needed exactly the inverse, settings are good for 80% of my music (jazz mostly) but with hiphop it's way too heavy, mid bass included, the sub only remote was not enough.
In fact I also really miss a volume knob since I use iphone only as a source, so I tried different solutions (the ms8 remote is ok, but it's not the same feeling/precision, and is too slow).
I may go with a simple preamp knob now.


----------



## talan7

kaigoss69 said:


> Doesn't sound good! I don't know what to tell you, besides pulling the power to the unit and hoping it will reset itself somehow....


What's the steps in doing that? Do I disconnect battery first?



JVD240 said:


> Run your remote wire directly to your amps. Do they power on? You have to systematically isolate the problem.


Do I need to disconnect the battery before attempting?



MetricMuscle said:


> Is your head unit coming on?
> Sounds like you aren't getting power from the head unit if it's an OE head unit and turn signal sounds come from it.
> Check that fuse too.


My head unit works. My ms8 is after my factory amp. All sound goes through that then to ms8 that's why I have no sound. I will attempt to check all fuses.



thehatedguy said:


> Have you reset the processor?


I keep pressing the button in the back but i have no lights or power on the ms8.


----------



## vinnny

I could use some recommendations on crossover settings.

From what I have read, the rears should always be high-passed at 100hz and the center should be somewhere around 200-300 because of its size, just not clear where to set the sub/front and from lo/hi. I am running L6SE and L3SE as 2-way. Any advice is welcome. Thanks!

==========
2014 Ram 1500 crewcab with "apline" system 8.4an HU
JBL MS-8 with input from L+R dash, front doors and sub1 (speaker-level)
MS-8 out via RCA to 2 JL HD900/5 amps (so 100x7+500x1)
AMP1 is front doors and dash
AMP2 is rear doors, center and sub
Dash L/C/R: HAT L3SE
Front doors: HAT L6SE
Rear doors: HAT I61-2
Sub: HAT Clarus C10SW (homemade sealed box)
deadened and dampened doors and rear wall (amp rack) with Raammat and Ensolite
all Knu wiring


----------



## 14642

talan7 said:


> I have the wireless bass control with my ms8 and ms 1004, ms1005 and it works


Why wouldn't you just use the MS-8 subwoofer control? They both do the same thing, except if you use the MS08 control, it'll split the adjustment between the sub and the front speakers, which sounds better.


----------



## 14642

talan7 said:


> What's the steps in doing that? Do I disconnect battery first?
> 
> 
> 
> Do I need to disconnect the battery before attempting?
> 
> 
> 
> My head unit works. My ms8 is after my factory amp. All sound goes through that then to ms8 that's why I have no sound. I will attempt to check all fuses.
> 
> 
> 
> I keep pressing the button in the back but i have no lights or power on the ms8.


If you shorted the turn on output of MS-8 to ground, it may be blown and may need to be repaired.


----------



## MetricMuscle

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Don't do this. MS-8 has a long delay through the processor. ALL channels should pass through MS-8. Use an amp with a crossover to bi-amp the front.


Is there any particular amplifier you would recommend for this.
Most don't offer crossover points way up in tweeterville frequency.
I've been looking at the MS-A1004, it offers the widest crossover frequency adjustment of any amp I've seen.
Does it maintain 100watts of output per channel into a load less than 4ohms, like say 6 or 8ohms?
Not that it would really matter, the 8ohm 3" mid I have in my doors only needs about 20watts.

Are the mids and tweeters you used in your Volvo, that you mentioned were essentially OE Mercedes drivers, available now?

Yes, Absolutely! Thank you for your continued support, Andy!


----------



## Lanson

Andy I just want to say, thank you for your continued support of this product even though you're off and doing your own company now. I think I speak for everyone on this forum when I say, this is appreciated very much.


----------



## talan7

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Why wouldn't you just use the MS-8 subwoofer control? They both do the same thing, except if you use the MS08 control, it'll split the adjustment between the sub and the front speakers, which sounds better.


I don't use it. It was already installed from when I just had the mono amp and sub put in. I wondered when the MS8 was put in if it would matter. I left it flat and use the ms8 sub level


----------



## talan7

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If you shorted the turn on output of MS-8 to ground, it may be blown and may need to be repaired.


Does the ms8 need to be taken apart for this? Basically, is it an easy fix or better off replacing? Sometimes one of the amps turns on, stays on for a bit, then turns off.


----------



## crazhorse

Sounds like what happened to my 360.3.... Accidentally shorted it out, called them about getting it repaired they said a flat fee of 270 since it was out of warranty... So I bought a ms-8 and have a 360.3 paperweight 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## talan7

crazhorse said:


> Sounds like what happened to my 360.3.... Accidentally shorted it out, called them about getting it repaired they said a flat fee of 270 since it was out of warranty... So I bought a ms-8 and have a 360.3 paperweight
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Which one sounded better, and which one is easier to use?


----------



## crazhorse

Only had the ms8 a couple of weeks... Still reading and trying Different things with it. It's easier with the auto tune setup wise... Comes down to how much input you want on ta and the like for the 360.3


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kaigoss69

talan7 said:


> What's the steps in doing that? Do I disconnect battery first?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do I need to disconnect the battery before attempting?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My head unit works. My ms8 is after my factory amp. All sound goes through that then to ms8 that's why I have no sound. I will attempt to check all fuses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I keep pressing the button in the back but i have no lights or power on the ms8.



You can run the L3SE down to 160 Hz with 24db/oct slope, that's where I had mine. That's not to say though that the L6SE can't cover those frequencies better, you just have to experiment. I would start at 200 Hz and then compare it to 160 and 250 and see which one works better. if 250 sounds best, go even higher to see you with the sweet spot is. 

Same with the sub, just try it out. I would start with 80 Hz 24db/OCT.


----------



## vinnny

kaigoss69 said:


> You can run the L3SE down to 160 Hz with 24db/oct slope, that's where I had mine. That's not to say though that the L6SE will cover those frequencies better, you just have to experiment. I would start at 200 Hz and then compare it to 160 and 250 and see which one works better. if 250 sounds best, go even higher to see you with the sweet spot is.
> 
> Same with the sub, just try it out. I would start with 80 Hz 24db/OCT.


Thanks kaigoss69. Looks like you ran a simliar setup as me (L3SE, HD900/5, MS8). I was just reading your posts last night regarding the 2v input on the JL amps, i was very confused by the counterclockwise concept but I think I understand now.

I run my sweeps at -30db on the ms8 and inputs sens. at 2v (full counterclockwise). Back to -6db after calibration to control with HU. I'll probably go to about 12o'clock on the gains after I find something that sounds good (or should I do that first?)

For the xovers starting point, subsonic [email protected], sub/front [email protected], front Hi/Lo 160/200/250hz (i'll try them and compare). Rears at [email protected] All dash (l/r/c) should xover at the same place, right?


----------



## MetricMuscle

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Why wouldn't you just use the MS-8 subwoofer control? They both do the same thing, except if you use the MS08 control, it'll split the adjustment between the sub and the front speakers, which sounds better.


Just to quickly and easily pump up the bass when my jam comes on, if necessary.
You know, impress the ladies with my boom.

From what I've read about the Wireless Bass Controller, it will only boost bass and only from 160Hz down.
Does it sync up with just the amplifier that is playing below 160Hz?


----------



## kaigoss69

MetricMuscle said:


> Just to quickly and easily pump up the bass when my jam comes on, if necessary.
> You know, impress the ladies with my boom.
> 
> From what I've read about the Wireless Bass Controller, it will only boost bass and only from 160Hz down.
> Does it sync up with just the amplifier that is playing below 160Hz?


I think it is 60Hz and down. Sync it with the sub amp only.


----------



## talan7

kaigoss69 said:


> You can run the L3SE down to 160 Hz with 24db/oct slope, that's where I had mine. That's not to say though that the L6SE can't cover those frequencies better, you just have to experiment. I would start at 200 Hz and then compare it to 160 and 250 and see which one works better. if 250 sounds best, go even higher to see you with the sweet spot is.
> 
> Same with the sub, just try it out. I would start with 80 Hz 24db/OCT.


Huh?


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

talan7 said:


> Can anyone help me troubleshoot my lack of turn on? I touched my remote out to other amps on my ms8 with my pocket knife. The metal caused a spark and now nothing turns on. Neither the ms8 nor the other amps. *I replaced the fuse on the ms8 but to no avail.* I checked the fuses on the other 2 amps and they look good, so do my inline fuses under the hood. *Would disconnecting the ms8 from power and then reconnecting help?* How would I go about that? Diconnect the battery or unscrew the fuses connected to the battery? I need help, I'm driving around with no sound at all, not even turn signal sounds. It's driving me crazy.


If you pulled the fuse to the MS-8, then it's the same thing as disconnecting the power at the battery.

My assumption is that you do not have a meter or a test light, and have very little experience in troubleshooting, correct? If I were you, I would buy an inexpensive digital multimeter... you can find them at your local auto parts store, Lowes, Home Depot, etc...

You can get one like this at Lowes for about $25:










The MS-8 receives a turn on signal from your factory/aftermarket head unit at the "Rem In" connection. This is nothing more than a 12 volt DC signal that lets the MS-8 (and your amps) know that the head unit has turned on and that they too should turn on. You need to use your new meter (sent on DC Voltage) to see if the voltage is there or not.

So to do this, you set your meter to DC Volts and set the scale of voltage to be read. (There will probably be a 20 VDC set point on the knob like the one pictured above, unless you bought an auto-ranging meter.) Turn on your radio. Now take the black meter lead and put it on the GND terminal on the MS-8. Take the red meter lead and touch it to the +12 V terminal. You should read approximately 12 volts. (Can be 11.5 ~ 14 VDC depending on the condition of your battery, whether or not your car is running, etc...) 

Now, remove the red lead from the +12 V terminal and touch it to the REM IN terminal. What does the meter say? If you have 12 VDC at the terminal, then you are getting the turn on signal from the radio and odds are your MS-8 is damaged and needs repaired. If not, then you need to go back to the radio and find out what got damaged there.

If it's the remote turn on signal at the radio, then you might be able to disconnect the remote turn on lead at the radio and reconnect it to a power source that is 'on' when you put your car/key into the "Accessory" position.

One more thing you can do if you know it's the Remote Turn On signal from the radio and want to test the MS-8 and amps: Remove the remote turn on wire at the MS-8 and tape it off so that it doesn't touch the chassis and ground out. Now find a small piece of wire to be used as a jumper and strip both ends slightly. 

Now with your radio on, use that jumper wire to jump between the +12 V terminal and the REM IN terminal. Your MS-8 and amplifiers should turn on and play. If not, then you have multiple problems that need to be addressed.

Good luck.


----------



## talan7

Fast Hot Rod said:


> If you pulled the fuse to the MS-8, then it's the same thing as disconnecting the power at the battery.
> 
> My assumption is that you do not have a meter or a test light, and have very little experience in troubleshooting, correct? If I were you, I would buy an inexpensive digital multimeter... you can find them at your local auto parts store, Lowes, Home Depot, etc...
> 
> You can get one like this at Lowes for about $25:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The MS-8 receives a turn on signal from your factory/aftermarket head unit at the "Rem In" connection. This is nothing more than a 12 volt DC signal that lets the MS-8 (and your amps) know that the head unit has turned on and that they too should turn on. You need to use your new meter (sent on DC Voltage) to see if the voltage is there or not.
> 
> So to do this, you set your meter to DC Volts and set the scale of voltage to be read. (There will probably be a 20 VDC set point on the knob like the one pictured above, unless you bought an auto-ranging meter.) Turn on your radio. Now take the black meter lead and put it on the GND terminal on the MS-8. Take the red meter lead and touch it to the +12 V terminal. You should read approximately 12 volts. (Can be 11.5 ~ 14 VDC depending on the condition of your battery, whether or not your car is running, etc...)
> 
> Now, remove the red lead from the +12 V terminal and touch it to the REM IN terminal. What does the meter say? If you have 12 VDC at the terminal, then you are getting the turn on signal from the radio and odds are your MS-8 is damaged and needs repaired. If not, then you need to go back to the radio and find out what got damaged there.
> 
> If it's the remote turn on signal at the radio, then you might be able to disconnect the remote turn on lead at the radio and reconnect it to a power source that is 'on' when you put your car/key into the "Accessory" position.
> 
> One more thing you can do if you know it's the Remote Turn On signal from the radio and want to test the MS-8 and amps: Remove the remote turn on wire at the MS-8 and tape it off so that it doesn't touch the chassis and ground out. Now find a small piece of wire to be used as a jumper and strip both ends slightly.
> 
> Now with your radio on, use that jumper wire to jump between the +12 V terminal and the REM IN terminal. Your MS-8 and amplifiers should turn on and play. If not, then you have multiple problems that need to be addressed.
> 
> Good luck.


Wow, scary and helpful at the same time. Thanks a lot. I'll try it this weekend.


----------



## t3sn4f2

MetricMuscle said:


> Just to quickly and easily pump up the bass when my jam comes on, if necessary.
> You know, impress the ladies with my boom.
> 
> From what I've read about the Wireless Bass Controller, it will only boost bass and only from 160Hz down.
> Does it sync up with just the amplifier that is playing below 160Hz?


"The bass-boost filter in the MS Series amplifiers is a shelf filter that boosts or cuts bass below 60Hz, but never above 160Hz. The range of adjustment is +/–10dB. Additionally, the bass boost or cut is sent to all the amplifiers with which the control is paired. The bass control works with the crossover filters to ensure that the proper amount of boost or cut is sent to the subwoofer and the mid-bass or midrange speakers, so the character and apparent location of bass sounds remain constant."


----------



## Elgrosso

t3sn4f2 said:


> "...Additionally, the bass boost or cut is sent to all the amplifiers with which the control is paired ...


About this, I still don't get it since:
"The MSWBC unit is only good for one amplifier. It cannot pair to multiple amplifiers at the same time." / Harman Lifestyle Division by email.
So ok the sub boost doesn't move the crossover, but how could it boost the mids in the same time since they're not connected?


----------



## talan7

Fast Hot Rod said:


> If you pulled the fuse to the MS-8, then it's the same thing as disconnecting the power at the battery.
> 
> My assumption is that you do not have a meter or a test light, and have very little experience in troubleshooting, correct? If I were you, I would buy an inexpensive digital multimeter... you can find them at your local auto parts store, Lowes, Home Depot, etc...
> 
> You can get one like this at Lowes for about $25:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The MS-8 receives a turn on signal from your factory/aftermarket head unit at the "Rem In" connection. This is nothing more than a 12 volt DC signal that lets the MS-8 (and your amps) know that the head unit has turned on and that they too should turn on. You need to use your new meter (sent on DC Voltage) to see if the voltage is there or not.
> 
> So to do this, you set your meter to DC Volts and set the scale of voltage to be read. (There will probably be a 20 VDC set point on the knob like the one pictured above, unless you bought an auto-ranging meter.) Turn on your radio. Now take the black meter lead and put it on the GND terminal on the MS-8. Take the red meter lead and touch it to the +12 V terminal. You should read approximately 12 volts. (Can be 11.5 ~ 14 VDC depending on the condition of your battery, whether or not your car is running, etc...)
> 
> Now, remove the red lead from the +12 V terminal and touch it to the REM IN terminal. What does the meter say? If you have 12 VDC at the terminal, then you are getting the turn on signal from the radio and odds are your MS-8 is damaged and needs repaired. If not, then you need to go back to the radio and find out what got damaged there.
> 
> If it's the remote turn on signal at the radio, then you might be able to disconnect the remote turn on lead at the radio and reconnect it to a power source that is 'on' when you put your car/key into the "Accessory" position.
> 
> One more thing you can do if you know it's the Remote Turn On signal from the radio and want to test the MS-8 and amps: Remove the remote turn on wire at the MS-8 and tape it off so that it doesn't touch the chassis and ground out. Now find a small piece of wire to be used as a jumper and strip both ends slightly.
> 
> Now with your radio on, use that jumper wire to jump between the +12 V terminal and the REM IN terminal. Your MS-8 and amplifiers should turn on and play. If not, then you have multiple problems that need to be addressed.
> 
> Good luck.


Ok I went out at lunch time and purchased a meter from Home Depot. I followed your instructions and when placing one lead on ground and one on 12v I got nothing. Evidently no power whatsoever. I then went by a local car stereo installation to inquire about inline fuses. One of the techs came out and looked at my inline fuses and said they looked good. He then looked at another large fuse behind my battery and it was blown. he replaced it and viola, the musics back. Thanks for your help anyway, now I have a meter that I can use to test things with, and a little better understanding about electronics.


----------



## vinnny

my truck had a factory sub that was DVC, and it got two channels from the factory amp. Should I tap both channels as input to the MS8? 2014 Ram with alpine "premium" system.


----------



## kaigoss69

vinnny said:


> my truck had a factory sub that was DVC, and it got two channels from the factory amp. Should I tap both channels as input to the MS8? 2014 Ram with alpine "premium" system.


One channel will be enough I think.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Elgrosso said:


> About this, I still don't get it since:
> "The MSWBC unit is only good for one amplifier. It cannot pair to multiple amplifiers at the same time." / Harman Lifestyle Division by email.
> So ok the sub boost doesn't move the crossover, but how could it boost the mids in the same time since they're not connected?


_My assumption_ is that they mean that the WBC can only work on one mono and one 4 channel amp combo. Any extra sub amps or added 4 channel amps won't connect to the initial first pair.

As for how the bass management works. _It looks like_ they are independent in the sense that if you only have a mono amp it works as *a traditional sub level*. But with the contoured roll off, so as not to boost past 160Hz at very high settings. But when the 4 channel is present it works that way plus with the midbass lowpass Q shaping.

Edit: Shelf filter not sub level.


----------



## MetricMuscle

t3sn4f2 said:


> "The bass-boost filter in the MS Series amplifiers is a shelf filter that boosts or cuts bass below 60Hz, but never above 160Hz. The range of adjustment is +/–10dB. Additionally, the bass boost or cut is sent to all the amplifiers with which the control is paired. The bass control works with the crossover filters to ensure that the proper amount of boost or cut is sent to the subwoofer and the mid-bass or midrange speakers, so the character and apparent location of bass sounds remain constant."


Ok.
How does this differ from how MS-8 would boost bass output.

If the WBC will only control bass boost on one amplifier and that particular amplifier is running the sub and mid-bass then that might work pretty well.


----------



## MetricMuscle

I just ordered an MS-A1004 for my front channels, a 3" mid and tweeter, so I can use just one channel per side from MS-8 but still be able to actively crossover the mid and tweeter.
I may have to get another one for mid-bass and sub duty. 
The small size of the amplifier really opens up more mounting options


----------



## Elgrosso

t3sn4f2 said:


> _My assumption_ is that they mean that the WBC can only work on one mono and one 4 channel amp combo. Any extra sub amps or added 4 channel amps won't connect to the initial first pair.
> 
> As for how the bass management works. _It looks like_ they are independent in the sense that if you only have a mono amp it works as a traditional sub level. But with the contoured roll off, so as not to boost past 160Hz at very high settings. But when the 4 channel is present it works that way plus with the midbass lowpass Q shaping.


That would be great! But I doubt it, not paired (radio or BLE? don't remember) there's no way the 2nd amp get the info.



MetricMuscle said:


> Ok.
> How does this differ from how MS-8 would boost bass output.
> 
> If the WBC will only control bass boost on one amplifier and that particular amplifier is running the sub and mid-bass then that might work pretty well.


Right it looks exactly like the ms8 boost definition, maybe a typo in the manual?
Only case I see it the one you described, and only if this amp "understand" which channel is sub and which is mid.

I just ordered another WBC (sold the old ones), to try again.
Since I wanted to re-test the Kaigoss mod, sub on output of mid bass amp to save 2 channels on ms8.
Maybe in this case the WBC will control the mid bass amp output too, so the sub amp get impacted as well.
Well while writing, this doesn't make sense...




MetricMuscle said:


> I just ordered an MS-A1004 for my front channels, a 3" mid and tweeter, so I can use just one channel per side from MS-8 but still be able to actively crossover the mid and tweeter.
> I may have to get another one for mid-bass and sub duty.
> The small size of the amplifier really opens up more mounting options


They're really great. I don't have a big experience with others, but they're so easy to setup, gain, level, xover and even mixer etc I can't remember how many combinations I tried with now 4 of them.
I hope Audiofrog will re-use this concept if they create any amp one day. :bowdown:

(maybe with an app so you can adjust everything from your seat )


----------



## 14642

Elgrosso said:


> About this, I still don't get it since:
> "The MSWBC unit is only good for one amplifier. It cannot pair to multiple amplifiers at the same time." / Harman Lifestyle Division by email.
> So ok the sub boost doesn't move the crossover, but how could it boost the mids in the same time since they're not connected?


This is absolutely incorrect. If you only have one amp driving your subs, then the 60Hz shelf is applied to only that amp. If you had additional MS Amps driving the front speakers, then the WBC could be "connected" to both and the subwoofer control would work just like MS-8's.

Harman tech support obviously hasn't read the manual.


----------



## MetricMuscle

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> This is absolutely incorrect. If you only have one amp driving your subs, then the 60Hz shelf is applied to only that amp. If you had additional MS Amps driving the front speakers, then the WBC could be "connected" to both and the subwoofer control would work just like MS-8's.
> 
> Harman tech support obviously hasn't read the manual.


Well then I guess I'll need to get another MS-A1004 and do this install up right. It will all fit better where I intend to install it also, draw less power, stay cool and not need any fan cooling. JBL fanboy in the house!


----------



## Elgrosso

Cool!! Thank you for the re-confirmation Andy, will try again soon...


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

Elgrosso said:


> About this, I still don't get it since:
> "The MSWBC unit is only good for one amplifier. It cannot pair to multiple amplifiers at the same time." / Harman Lifestyle Division by email.
> So ok the sub boost doesn't move the crossover, but how could it boost the mids in the same time since they're not connected?


I believe you have been given bad information. I have two MS-A5001's and a MS-A1004. I'm not finished with my install, but I wanted the subs on line so I took the speaker leads that go to my rear door speakers and fed them into both 5001's. (Selected high level input on the switch.)

I was able to program both sub amps to work with just one JBL MS-WBC. I just went out and checked, and both amps increase/decrease volume with a turn off the knob.

I haven't tried to pair it to my 1004 yet. I'll let you know what happens if I get it tested out.

Edit to add: Just saw Andy's post. I'll take his word on it if he says it works. Just found out that one of my 5001's has a bad set of inputs. Works fine with my phone and RCA cable, but when on high level 1 or 2, it shorts out the speaker wires and my door speaker quits. Unplug it, and the door speaker comes back on. Guess I better get off my lazy butt and finish my install.


----------



## Elgrosso

Yes, and I sold two remotes because of their feedback, I should have asked here directly for real knowledge  thx!


----------



## Philth

Hey all...thinking about installing the MS-8 in my 2014 Camry with base audio. If I"m understanding everything correctly, I only need to run the front L/R channels into the MS-8?

Also, I was thinking of getting an MS-A1004 to run an active 2-way system for the fronts but I can't seem to find this amp anywhere for sale. Did JBL stop making them? Don't see the MS series on their website anymore.


----------



## JVD240

Philth said:


> Hey all...thinking about installing the MS-8 in my 2014 Camry with base audio. If I"m understanding everything correctly, I only need to run the front L/R channels into the MS-8?
> 
> Also, I was thinking of getting an MS-A1004 to run an active 2-way system for the fronts but I can't seem to find this amp anywhere for sale. Did JBL stop making them? Don't see the MS series on their website anymore.


All the MS-8 needs to see is full range signal (20Hz to 20kHz). Use whatever signal gets you that. It can be speaker(high level) or head unit signal(low level).

Not sure about the MS-A stuff. If they are truly gone you could post up a WTB here. Can't confirm their official status.


----------



## Philth

JVD240 said:


> All the MS-8 needs to see is full range signal (20Hz to 20kHz). Use whatever signal gets you that. It can be speaker(high level) or head unit signal(low level).
> 
> Not sure about the MS-A stuff. If they are truly gone you could post up a WTB here. Can't confirm their official status.


Thanks. Ive been reading about some folks complaining about lack of mid bass. What's the general consensus about this?


----------



## Elgrosso

You can find them on ebay/amazon/sonic and a bunch of other shops, but not always authorized though, I'd say cheap enough to try. There's a jbl eBay account for refurbished too. And of course here in classifieds.

About midbass, I'd say it's all about level match and crossover.
This huge thread covered this many times. The better you prepare his job, the better the magic.


----------



## Lanson

Philth said:


> Thanks. Ive been reading about some folks complaining about lack of mid bass. What's the general consensus about this?


A few things to remember:

Don't try to get midbass from small drivers. I just said this because I got significant performance improvements when I went to 8" midbass drivers instead of puny 5x7's. The MS-8 LOVED that and so did I.

Make sure they aren't resonating the whole door if you're doing midbass in the door. I had issues until I deadened the crap out of it. Imagine that the MS-8 is reading the impulse response not long tones or white noise and so the frequency response is messed up with resonance.

Make sure they are phased properly, as the MS-8 can't handle drivers out of phase. My suggestion is to build your system with a quick-change barrier strip or some other way of quickly swapping polarity if need be, on each driver while someone is listening to your system as you switch.

You may need to fiddle with crossover points in the setup phase. I adjusted only a few hz down and the midbass was back with a vengance on my setup. Remember that the MS-8 doesn't use those cross points exactly, it more takes them "under advisement" when doing its thing. So expect maybe a few tries of different crossover points.

Add some dB's to the EQ after calibration, if need be. Sometimes you have to take some out! Depends.


----------



## MetricMuscle

Philth said:


> Also, I was thinking of getting an MS-A1004 to run an active 2-way system for the fronts but I can't seem to find this amp anywhere for sale. Did JBL stop making them? Don't see the MS series on their website anymore.


Woofersetc.com had the lowest price I could find currently, $289, free shipping.


----------



## camfreem7

Ok so I am having a little issue, wanted to see what you guys thought. My set up is well documented throughout this thread so I will just go over the pertinent aspects of it.

So my 4 channel amp was powering my front and rear's with the fronts using the passive crossovers. I took it to the shop to get them to bi amp the fronts using all 4 channels and power the rears off the MS-8 while I am waiting to get another amp.

So the stupid manager tells the installer to just make it so the rears are powered off the MS-8 and missed the entire point of why I wanted to do that, which was to run the fronts active, so now the fronts are still passive powered off just two channels.

So now here is my problem, when I do the setup and get to the output diagnostics the pink noise is coming out of both rear speakers at once when I select just side left for instance. I have played with a couple different channel assignments and it either does this or plays through neither. Now, during the acoustic measurement the 3rd and 4th sweeps are separate and while it sounds like they are coming out of each speaker separately I supposed they could be coming from both at the same time.

Also, after the acoustic measurement the rears are very quiet, I have the gain on my amp.powering the fronts down low enough so that during the sweeps all speakers are about level, should I make it so the fronts are quieter? 

I did just buy another amp from a member on here so when I get that installed and have my fronts running active I am anticipating this problem going away but in the mean time any help would be appreciated.


----------



## MetricMuscle

Ok, I've been reading thru the 80 some pages of Andy's Wisdom pdf., all meat no cereal.
Got a couple of questions.

- *What is everybody using for rear or side speakers?*
Andy suggests HP at 100Hz and definitely have a tweeter.
My initial thoughts were to use a good coaxial but didn't wanna cut corners if something better is necessary.

- *Where is the best place to mount rear speakers in a sedan?*
On the rear deck involves the back glass, that's bad.
Looks like a mirror image of the front door is the way to go, in the upper back corner of the door panel.

- A couple of places Andy suggests running the sides and rears in parallel, not sure what he means by this other than wiring them both on the same channel, in parallel.

- Did Andy document his Volvo build here at diymobileaudio ?

- To get bass up front, is it not necessary to use as large of a mid-bass driver possible up front when using MS-8? Will using a large mid-bass driver up front make it necessary to use one in the sides or rear?


----------



## Elgrosso

MetricMuscle said:


> Ok, I've been reading thru the 80 some pages of Andy's Wisdom pdf., all meat no cereal.
> Got a couple of questions.
> 
> - *What is everybody using for rear or side speakers?*
> Andy suggests HP at 100Hz and definitely have a tweeter.
> My initial thoughts were to use a good coaxial but didn't wanna cut corners if something better is necessary.
> 
> - *Where is the best place to mount rear speakers in a sedan?*
> On the rear deck involves the back glass, that's bad.
> Looks like a mirror image of the front door is the way to go, in the upper back corner of the door panel.
> 
> - A couple of places Andy suggests running the sides and rears in parallel, not sure what he means by this other than wiring them both on the same channel, in parallel.
> 
> - Did Andy document his Volvo build here at diymobileaudio ?
> 
> - To get bass up front, is it not necessary to use as large of a mid-bass driver possible up front when using MS-8? Will using a large mid-bass driver up front make it necessary to use one in the sides or rear?


Simple answer would be yes, coaxial is enough.
After it may depend of their placements?

If it helps, my car is a 2+2 with no rears, only sides:
I started L7 with the stock speakers, then tried better drivers like 500gti or even 560, didn't notice a difference. 
Then added a tweeter with the ms52c, and it was clearly better.
Last step was to put the tweeters higher at head level in the corners of rear quarter glass and parcel shelf, and it was even better again.
But then I have a trouble with the levels of the mids hidden just behind my seats. Like if I had mids only as sides, and tweeters only as rears, on the same channels. I have in mind to try some small midranges in that spot.

Anyway the added depth convinced me to keep them, and try to improve once I'll be done with the front.

So about the deck, I think it can be a good thing to use the reflections, will add delay and dispersion. Here it's only for ambiance, and the fact that it is advised to use sides and rears in // if only 2 channels, pushes in that direction.
Just feel like it's the exact opposite than what we want for the front.
Buy maybe I'm wrong

For the s60, there are few pics here I think with detailed description but not a real build thread.
And about the bass, since it's only 100/150Hz+ no need to match the front.


----------



## FordEscape

Philth said:


> Hey all...thinking about installing the MS-8 in my 2014 Camry with base audio. If I"m understanding everything correctly, I only need to run the front L/R channels into the MS-8?.....





JVD240 said:


> All the MS-8 needs to see is full range signal (20Hz to 20kHz). Use whatever signal gets you that. It can be speaker(high level) or head unit signal(low level)......


*One caveat *.... you also want to be sure to catch the output channels for any tones/warnings/etc generated by your vehicle.

*Example:* the back-up camera warning tones (getting too close to an object behind) on my 2014 Ford Escape are on the OEM rear channels _only_ with a volume control independent of the rear-channel _entertainment_ audio volume setting. I 'lost' those warning tones until I fed all four (F&R) OEM HU outputs to the MS-8 inputs even though the front outputs alone provided the full range _entertainment audio signal_ needed by the MS-8.

With both F&R OEM high-level outputs fed to the MS-8 all my OEM features work as intended; they did not with only Front outputs to the MS-8.

Maybe worth noting for folks installing an MS-8 on a *Ford Sync vehicle *.... the are are independent volume controls for entertainment, Bluetooth phone, Sync voice responses, navigation system and vehicle generated warning tones in the Sync system. Calibrate the MS-8 per instructions (OK-OK-OK) if using the OEM HU outputs. After your MS-8 is setup you'll then need to re-adjust each of the independent 'system' volumes using your HU volume knob during the instant that each of those sources is generating audio (e.g. raise the Sync response-voice volume while the voice is talking). Adjusting those other 'system' volumes has no effect on _entertainment audio_ volume. All will then work perfectly with the MS-8; the MS-8 is 100% Ford Sync compatible in my experience. 

HTH, YMMV


----------



## Lanson

Wooo I've been dealing with some wild MS-8 frequency response issues on my Focus ST build, not sure what's up but wanted to share with the group some thoughts.

The system is a simple Silver Flute 6.5" in the doors, and some Bravox silk tweeters from the Carbon Fiber component set, with a cross of 2900, 4th order. The Flutes are crossing approx 70-80hz (been playing with diff calibrations), sub is an AV10H and a single DLS X-D40 amp is powering the sub, and the front woofers. 

I've tried a few calibs this way but I usually end up with the woofers about 1/2 gain, and the sub at the dead bottom of my gain. I still end up with extremely overpowering bass and a hollow mid-bass. 

I fiddled with phase and I think that was part of the issue on the mids, I swapped them reverse and it was slightly better, but wow just a ton of low bass. I then recalibrated with a 3-way setup + 1 way rear, and just made the subwoofer the bottom of the 3-way. This sounded a little bit better, but I wonder if one of the contributing issues is the fact that since this system has no center, I'm just running two sets of RCA from the MS-8 to the amp, to power the single sub. It literally feels like the sub side is getting twice the oomph it should have. Anybody experiment with that? 

Also, my system sounds "dark" and I'm having a bear of a time trying to figure out what's missing other than the midbass up front. I'll keep experimenting but it is interesting with how much success I've had using an MS-8 in other builds up to now, that I'm having issues.


----------



## 62Lincoln

FordEscape said:


> Maybe worth noting for folks installing an MS-8 on a *Ford Sync vehicle *.... the are are independent volume controls for entertainment, Bluetooth phone, Sync voice responses, navigation system and vehicle generated warning tones in the Sync system. Calibrate the MS-8 per instructions (OK-OK-OK) if using the OEM HU outputs. After your MS-8 is setup you'll then need to re-adjust each of the independent 'system' volumes using your HU volume knob during the instant that each of those sources is generating audio (e.g. raise the Sync response-voice volume while the voice is talking). Adjusting those other 'system' volumes has no effect on _entertainment audio_ volume. All will then work perfectly with the MS-8; the MS-8 is 100% Ford Sync compatible in my experience.
> 
> HTH, YMMV


I'm considering installing an MS-8 in my C-Max Energi with MFT (it has the Sony 10 speaker system, whatever that is) - sounds like I would be on a similar path to what you have experienced. As you might guess, with such an obscure install, I can't really find much info about my car. I think it's going to have elements of the Focus and Escape, since it shares chassis elements with both. It looks like you and fourthmeal might be good places to start with your experiences. Where was the system amp in your Escape?


----------



## Lanson

62Lincoln said:


> I'm considering installing an MS-8 in my C-Max Energi with MFT (it has the Sony 10 speaker system, whatever that is) - sounds like I would be on a similar path to what you have experienced. As you might guess, with such an obscure install, I can't really find much info about my car. I think it's going to have elements of the Focus and Escape, since it shares chassis elements with both. It looks like you and fourthmeal might be good places to start with your experiences. Where was the system amp in your Escape?


You should be fine, the Ford products are really very similar from model to model.

Just give the MS-8 all the signals in, and if your head unit can defeat processing (Stereo), then do that. My 2010 could, but my 2013 could not.


----------



## FordEscape

62Lincoln said:


> I'm considering installing an MS-8 in my C-Max Energi with MFT (it has the Sony 10 speaker system, whatever that is) - sounds like I would be on a similar path to what you have experienced. As you might guess, with such an obscure install, I can't really find much info about my car. I think it's going to have elements of the Focus and Escape, since it shares chassis elements with both. It looks like you and fourthmeal might be good places to start with your experiences. Where was the system amp in your Escape?


Your "Sony" system with subwoofer is *very* different from my "non-Sony" system in terms of the arrangement of amps and OEM DSP beyond the 'head unit' (my non-Sony system has none of that). I strongly suggest you access the Ford Workshop Manual & Wiring Diagrams to get a good understanding of your OEM starting point. Presumably you'll be bypassing the OEM DSP completely with the installation of the MS-8.

One source of OEM info is here, I have the CD ROM for my vehicle which includes the same wiring diagrams, component and connector location diagrams and connector-pin-out details as used by Ford dealers and has been an invaluable resource for audio and other modifications (it is the complete mechanical and electrical Workshop Manual):

http://www.helminc.com/helm/product...m=result&Style=helm&Sku=FCS2122914&itemtype=N

Doesn't look like the '15 year model CD-ROM is available yet for your C-Max

EDIT - I agree with fourthmeal that the systems are very similar model-to-model but still IMHO the 'non-Sony' vs 'Sony' differences are substantial (both are available in most models of Ford)


----------



## brumledb

Quick Question. I have a 2014 Sierra crew cab. Both amps and my LC6i are mounted behind back seat. Ideally, I would take out the LOC and put the MS8 in its place. What would I do with the headphones? They connect to the unit correct? They would have to stay connected all the time since I don't want to be taking out the back seat time and time again. So how would I keep the wire hidden and headphones stored in a good location?


----------



## Jepalan

brumledb said:


> Quick Question. I have a 2014 Sierra crew cab. Both amps and my LC6i are mounted behind back seat. Ideally, I would take out the LOC and put the MS8 in its place. What would I do with the headphones? They connect to the unit correct? They would have to stay connected all the time since I don't want to be taking out the back seat time and time again. So how would I keep the wire hidden and headphones stored in a good location?


The "headphones" are actually microphones. You only use them when running the calibration routine. They do not have to stay connected to the MS8. 

Maybe you could connect a headphone extension cable to the MS8, run it under the carpet to a place the headphones could be easily plugged in when you want to run another cal. Then just keep the phones in a safe place when not in use.


----------



## brumledb

Jepalan said:


> The "headphones" are actually microphones. You only use them when running the calibration routine. They do not have to stay connected to the MS8.
> 
> Maybe you could connect a headphone extension cable to the MS8, run it under the carpet to a place the headphones could be easily plugged in when you want to run another cal. Then just keep the phones in a safe place when not in use.


Good call Jepalan. That sounds like a good idea. Yeah I know they only have to be connected when doing a calibration and that was the dilemma. How to only connect them when doing a calibration if the unit is only accessible by removing a seat. 
Also, Head + Microphone = Headphone, right?
Thanks for the input.


----------



## Lanson

Per Andy, do not leave the mic(s) connected after calibration!


----------



## Lanson

Oh absolutely!

Follow my 2010 build for a Sony system, not my 2013. Both are documented here.



FordEscape said:


> Your "Sony" system with subwoofer is *very* different from my "non-Sony" system in terms of the arrangement of amps and OEM DSP beyond the 'head unit' (my non-Sony system has none of that). I strongly suggest you access the Ford Workshop Manual & Wiring Diagrams to get a good understanding of your OEM starting point. Presumably you'll be bypassing the OEM DSP completely with the installation of the MS-8.
> 
> One source of OEM info is here, I have the CD ROM for my vehicle which includes the same wiring diagrams, component and connector location diagrams and connector-pin-out details as used by Ford dealers and has been an invaluable resource for audio and other modifications (it is the complete mechanical and electrical Workshop Manual):
> 
> 2013-2014 C-Max Hybrid/Energi CD-ROM - Helm Incorporated
> 
> Doesn't look like the '15 year model CD-ROM is available yet for your C-Max
> 
> EDIT - I agree with fourthmeal that the systems are very similar model-to-model but still IMHO the 'non-Sony' vs 'Sony' differences are substantial (both are available in most models of Ford)


----------



## t3sn4f2

fourthmeal said:


> Per Andy, do not leave the mic(s) connected after calibration!


Or this _might_ happen.........

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/124001-anyone-ms8-experiencing-airplane-noise-please-read.html


----------



## MetricMuscle

Elgrosso said:


> If it helps, my car is a 2+2 with no rears, only *sides*


What kind of car?
Where are your sides?




Elgrosso said:


> So about the deck, I think it can be a good thing to use the reflections, will add delay and dispersion.


I'm pretty sure Andy does not encourage use of the rear deck but he did mount a 3" and tweeter there in his Volvo build. 
That would be an easier location for me to mount rear speakers but they would certainly interact with the back glass.


----------



## thehatedguy

Interesting....I didn't know it was bad to have them on the rear deck. Which, is where mine are/were at. 

Have to start exploring new places for the rears then.


----------



## Elgrosso

MetricMuscle said:


> What kind of car?
> Where are your sides?


A coupe xkr 05, you can spot them on this pic (not mine):








Behind the "star"
But in fact they're maybe better here than in a sedan much lower in the doors.
So my tweeters are right in the glass angle, and a small midrange would fit near the seat belt opening.



MetricMuscle said:


> I'm pretty sure Andy does not encourage use of the rear deck but he did mount a 3" and tweeter there in his Volvo build.
> That would be an easier location for me to mount rear speakers but they would certainly interact with the back glass.


Too bad I thought I saved the text about the v70, but can't find it.


----------



## MetricMuscle

Another thing I noticed he mentioned a couple of times is crossover points which are very different than what I was planning for.
Woofer to mid, both in the door a few inches apart, 1Khz.
Mid to tweeter, which is in the sail panel, 3Khz.


----------



## Elgrosso

Yep got it, you were right:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...n/75276-imaging-woofer-door-3.html#post965706
And he said somewhere, 6"+Tweet as sides, 3"+tweet on the deck


----------



## Elgrosso

MetricMuscle said:


> Another thing I noticed he mentioned a couple of times is crossover points which are very different than what I was planning for.
> Woofer to mid, both in the door a few inches apart, 1Khz.
> Mid to tweeter, which is in the sail panel, 3Khz.


Doesn't sound strange, what did you planned to use?
I now have 200/3600 but with previous speakers I prefered 800/3000.
But it's still not perfect so I'll try 3/4/5/600 again.


----------



## thehatedguy

The mid is just a filler speaker to keep the 6 from beaming.



MetricMuscle said:


> Another thing I noticed he mentioned a couple of times is crossover points which are very different than what I was planning for.
> Woofer to mid, both in the door a few inches apart, 1Khz.
> Mid to tweeter, which is in the sail panel, 3Khz.


----------



## 14642

Elgrosso said:


> A coupe xkr 05, you can spot them on this pic (not mine):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Behind the "star"
> But in fact they're maybe better here than in a sedan much lower in the doors.
> So my tweeters are right in the glass angle, and a small midrange would fit near the seat belt opening.
> 
> 
> Too bad I thought I saved the text about the v70, but can't find it.


The rear deck is OK. You'll get more depth than you will width enhancement. 

Beautiful interior ^^^^ but that little star isn't enough to be considered a grille.


----------



## 14642

thehatedguy said:


> The mid is just a filler speaker to keep the 6 from beaming.


That crossover point can be just about anything you want it to be, but it's ALWAYS good practice to cross speakers below where the dispersion begins to narrow and above Fs.


----------



## Elgrosso

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The rear deck is OK. You'll get more depth than you will width enhancement.
> 
> Beautiful interior ^^^^ but that little star isn't enough to be considered a grille.


Haha right, I guess they didn't care about the sound here. It's a regular "sonic" fabric on mine.
Good so I may try even further back on the deck.
So do you think it would be ok to use tweeter/3" on the deck + 6"/tweet in sides but on the same channel? (don't want to loose my front 3 channels)
Thx!


----------



## t3sn4f2

Elgrosso said:


> Haha right, I guess they didn't care about the sound here. It's a regular "sonic" fabric on mine.
> Good so I may try even further back on the deck.
> So do you think it would be ok to use tweeter/3" on the deck + 6"/tweet in sides but on the same channel? (don't want to loose my front 3 channels)
> Thx!


How bad do you need those rear selt belts? 

I'd ax them in order to gain driver/enclosure space from the area where the belts feed from above. Should free up enough room for a nice 3-4" coax in its own fiberglass enclosure. The trim outline there also lends itself nicely to a semi flat contoured grill clothed grill, dyed to match. 

These look like a good candidate, minus the enclosure of course.

Home Theatre Speakers - E Series - Overview - KEF United States


----------



## Elgrosso

t3sn4f2 said:


> How bad do you need those rear selt belts?
> 
> I'd ax them in order to gain driver/enclosure space from the area where the belts feed from above. Should free up enough room for a nice 3-4" coax in its own fiberglass enclosure. The trim outline there also lends itself nicely to a semi flat contoured grill clothed grill, dyed to match.
> 
> These look like a good candidate, minus the enclosure of course.
> 
> Home Theatre Speakers - E Series - Overview - KEF United States


Neat idea!
In fact at the beginning I thought about deleting completely the rear seats, unusable except by kids sometime.
But insurance reasons stopped me, I'm still not sure but it seems in CA I need to keep the belts, even without the seats, to still be considered as 2+2.
Whatever, I'll keep this in mind.
I'll try to make pics this we, maybe a different thread.

And always wanted to try some KEFs since ErinH tests.
But not sure I'd need an enclosure if I don't want them too low,
except for mounting purpose.
I got myself the cheap pair of pioneer TS-S062PRS, apparently they can go pretty high, I can start with them.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Elgrosso said:


> Neat idea!
> In fact at the beginning I thought about deleting completely the rear seats, unusable except by kids sometime.
> But insurance reasons stopped me, I'm still not sure but it seems in CA I need to keep the belts, even without the seats, to still be considered as 2+2.
> Whatever, I'll keep this in mind.
> I'll try to make pics this we, maybe a different thread.
> 
> *And always wanted to try some KEFs since ErinH tests.
> But not sure I'd need an enclosure if I don't want them too low,
> except for mounting purpose.
> I got myself the cheap pair of pioneer TS-S062PRS, apparently they can go pretty high, I can start with them*.


True, you could probably get away without the enclosure. But I would at the very least significantly reinforce the trim panel backside with something structurally rigid in order for it to act more like a baffle. As well as it helping noises from resonance.


----------



## Elgrosso

t3sn4f2 said:


> True, you could probably get away without the enclosure. But I would at the very least significantly reinforce the trim panel backside with something structurally rigid in order for it to act more like a baffle. As well as it helping noises from resonance.


Sure, I already need more rigidity here, after dozens of these panels removal the clips got loose and I sometime get some rattles from the sub so close.


----------



## MetricMuscle

Elgrosso said:


> Doesn't sound strange, what did you planned to use?
> I now have 200/3600 but with previous speakers I prefered 800/3000.
> But it's still not perfect so I'll try 3/4/5/600 again.


I was thinking more like 300Hz/5KHz but 1KHz/3KHz is lots better and easier, will get more use out of the larger 6" woofer in the upper mid-bass which is good.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The rear deck is OK. You'll get more depth than you will width enhancement.
> 
> Beautiful interior ^^^^ but that little star isn't enough to be considered a grille.


Rear deck placement will make things lots easier too.
Should I mount a particular driver in any particular location?
Closer to the corner where the back glass meets the rear deck or further out?
Will it matter which driver is outside of the other, tweeters placed wider than mids or woofer?



Elgrosso said:


> So do you think it would be ok to use tweeter/3" on the deck + 6"/tweet in sides but on the same channel? (don't want to loose my front 3 channels)
> Thx!


Andy mentioned that the rear/sides need to be strong in the 100Hz to 10KHz range. This sounds more like a 5" woofer and tweeter.


----------



## FordEscape

Seek opinion on the final step of my 'low-price-point' MS-8 install described here http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2238063-post10558.html

Things seeming 'stable and good' I'm now ready to move the MS-8 from its temporary home on the rear floorboard to a permanent mounting plate under the passenger seat. But before I do, one last possibility ....

I have the Alpine MRV-F300 amp (50W RMS x 4) left-over from my pre-MS-8 installation. I left it out of the MS-8 install to reduce variables during the transition, powering everything (except the sub) with the MS-8.

QUESTION - should I now install that amp between the MS-8 and the front 'Hi-Mid' configured speakers? (sailplane tweeters and door 'mids' ... Alpine SPS-610C components with the passive X-over removed, NPR22M100 protective capacitor installed on the tweeters, active X-over provided by the MS-8).

I'd be easy enough to do, use the RCA-out for those channels on the MS-8 to RCA-in on the amp, the amp gain is easy to set at 2v, has a switch to set the internal X-over to "off", I realize I'd need to go thru the full calibration again with the MS-8. I'm just not sure of any benefit or downside so seek advice.

Not interested in other amps/speaker changes - working with what's on hand only and ready to move down the road enjoying my improved, granted not "best po$$ible" sounds.

TIA


----------



## Elgrosso

FordEscape said:


> Seek opinion on the final step of my 'low-price-point' MS-8 install described here http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2238063-post10558.html
> 
> Things seeming 'stable and good' I'm now ready to move the MS-8 from its temporary home on the rear floorboard to a permanent mounting plate under the passenger seat. But before I do, one last possibility ....
> 
> I have the Alpine MRV-F300 amp (50W RMS x 4) left-over from my pre-MS-8 installation. I left it out of the MS-8 install to reduce variables during the transition, powering everything (except the sub) with the MS-8.
> 
> QUESTION - should I now install that amp between the MS-8 and the front 'Hi-Mid' configured speakers? (sailplane tweeters and door 'mids' ... Alpine SPS-610C components with the passive X-over removed, NPR22M100 protective capacitor installed on the tweeters, active X-over provided by the MS-8).
> 
> I'd be easy enough to do, use the RCA-out for those channels on the MS-8 to RCA-in on the amp, the amp gain is easy to set at 2v, has a switch to set the internal X-over to "off", I realize I'd need to go thru the full calibration again with the MS-8. I'm just not sure of any benefit or downside so seek advice.
> 
> Not interested in other amps/speaker changes - working with what's on hand only and ready to move down the road enjoying my improved, granted not "best po$$ible" sounds.
> 
> TIA


Go ahead!
Calibration is easy enough, I can't see why you would get worst result.
Sure it's a little work on level match, Xover setting etc but it should be great.


----------



## Elgrosso

MetricMuscle said:


> I was thinking more like 300Hz/5KHz but 1KHz/3KHz is lots better and easier, will get more use out of the larger 6" woofer in the upper mid-bass which is good.


Not sure the 6" playing higher would be better, depends of so many things.
But 5k looks high, can your tweeters play lower?
In my case I had a hole around 350:
- crossed higher I could feel the stage a bit lower sometime
- lower it works very well, even if I'm a bit afraid to play hard the 2.5" that low, so far no problem...
But like you I wonder if I underuse the woofer.
Well that's the great thing with ms-8, just try and see.



> Andy mentioned that the rear/sides need to be strong in the 100Hz to 10KHz range. This sounds more like a 5" woofer and tweeter.


My sides are 5" already, but near the glass a 5" would be too big.
The pioneer has an optional enclosure, should give it some safety, I'll see.


----------



## crazhorse

Trying to get my MS8 setup... either getting boomy or low bass, and overall sound not being good at all. Turning off processing sounds better than with it on. I have verified polarity on my mids and tweets and sub.
I have the subsonic filter set at 20hz low set to 80hz and highs crossed at 3600hz.
Tweeters are HAT legatia l1v2, mids are HAT Imagine 6.5 and sub is a Arc Audio Black 12 in a sealed box. Response for the sub from the box builder:







[/URL][/IMG]

Amps are a Alpine PD5 powering the mids/tweets and a Arc ks 300.2 for the sub.

So should I try to level match the gains to tweeters -5 db to the mids and the sub +9 db... or ?


----------



## thehatedguy

That's not the response of the sub in the car.


----------



## crazhorse

right.......... for reference in the posts I've seen about smalled sealed boxes.....


----------



## Elgrosso

crazhorse said:


> (...)
> So should I try to level match the gains to tweeters -5 db to the mids and the sub +9 db... or ?


Same issue here, when all speakers are at the same level.
But like you I usually have better results when the mids levels don't change dramatically with processor off.
I would try -10 at mids AND sub, sub should be just audible during the sweeps. 
Or you may have a peak somewhere, sub or maybe 3.6khz is a bit high for the 6"?


----------



## 93Akkord

Quick question, has anyone used this with a2dp bluetooth audio from a phone? I was thinking about trying one of these out, but all my music comes from my phone via bluetooth. I'm having a hard time finding a definitive answer on whether or not it works well.


----------



## Lanson

I recal'd after installing the KS900.6 amp I got from eBay (more on that later), and this time I cal'd with just channel 7 as "sub", instead of running both 7 and 8. This seems to be key to getting the sub bass under control, for my setup. I had to massively cut @ the low bass (40's-50's) on EQ to get it tamed, due to some excessive boom (going to blame the hatchback shape on that one), and it sounds pretty good overall.


----------



## sunshinefc3s

fourthmeal said:


> I recal'd after installing the KS900.6 amp I got from eBay (more on that later), and this time I cal'd with just channel 7 as "sub", instead of running both 7 and 8. This seems to be key to getting the sub bass under control, for my setup. I had to massively cut @ the low bass (40's-50's) on EQ to get it tamed, due to some excessive boom (going to blame the hatchback shape on that one), and it sounds pretty good overall.


Maybe you can give me some tips then...same amp, front active 2-way and rear fill plus single 10" sub. KS900.6 running the interior, mono class d for sub. I'm getting very boomy sub and virtually no midbass. Sounds terrible. 

I'm too new to the MS-8, not sure how to proceed.


----------



## Lanson

sunshinefc3s said:


> Maybe you can give me some tips then...same amp, front active 2-way and rear fill plus single 10" sub. KS900.6 running the interior, mono class d for sub. I'm getting very boomy sub and virtually no midbass. Sounds terrible.
> 
> I'm too new to the MS-8, not sure how to proceed.


During the initial calibration process, where you have the audio test, I made sure that all my channels were approximately the same dB. Small tweaks in the gain dials on the 900.6 were made so they were roughly the same. 

My cross points were 70hz, and 3100hz, @ 24bB/oct. 

I wired only 1 sub channel from the MS-8 to the 900.6, and this seemed to be the cure for me. I did cut the low bass as I said, pretty sharply too. Oh and of course, disconnect your mic after calibration.


----------



## crazhorse

I will try matching the levels up better and recalibrating.... and see how that sounds


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kaigoss69

sunshinefc3s said:


> Maybe you can give me some tips then...same amp, front active 2-way and rear fill plus single 10" sub. KS900.6 running the interior, mono class d for sub. I'm getting very boomy sub and virtually no midbass. Sounds terrible.
> 
> I'm too new to the MS-8, not sure how to proceed.


Set up the front as 3-way, no sub. The "Lo" outputs (both of them) go to your sub amp where they will be summed to mono.


----------



## Lanson

kaigoss69 said:


> Set up the front as 3-way, no sub. The "Lo" outputs (both of them) go to your sub amp where they will be summed to mono.



I did that too and had OK results, but with the sub channel dropped to just one, the performance was better. 

The midbass was less muddy this way, for some reason.

The MS-8 can be a weird beast.


----------



## kaigoss69

fourthmeal said:


> I did that too and had OK results, but with the sub channel dropped to just one, the performance was better.
> 
> The midbass was less muddy this way, for some reason.
> 
> The MS-8 can be a weird beast.


I think you should try again, this time play with the level of the sub sweeps during calibration. I think though that when the sub is in the trunk, and there is no larger opening connecting cabin and trunk, then it is more difficult to het the sub to integrate. So if you have fold down seat, or a ski pass, definitely open up whatever you can during calibrations.


----------



## t3sn4f2

93Akkord said:


> Quick question, has anyone used this with a2dp bluetooth audio from a phone? I was thinking about trying one of these out, but all my music comes from my phone via bluetooth. I'm having a hard time finding a definitive answer on whether or not it works well.


You'd need a compatible Bluetooth receiver that has analog outputs. As well as the accompanying power converter. After that you just plug the outputs from the Bluetooth receiver into the ms-8 line inputs like any other source. You might however want to get a good quality line driver if the Bluetooth device puts out a very low output voltage. That way the ms-8 has a strong signal to work with AND as a result puts out a strong signal to the amps.

This thread should give you a good idea about the available Bluetooth options.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/168568-smartphone-processor-connection-testing-airenabler-optical-spdif-wireless.html


----------



## Lanson

kaigoss69 said:


> I think you should try again, this time play with the level of the sub sweeps during calibration. I think though that when the sub is in the trunk, and there is no larger opening connecting cabin and trunk, then it is more difficult to het the sub to integrate. So if you have fold down seat, or a ski pass, definitely open up whatever you can during calibrations.


It is completely open in my case. Trust me, I tried it the "Kaigoss" way as soon as I calibrated initially with excessive BOOM in the bass, and virtually no mid-bass. But in my case, the best solution was to drop down to just one sub channel, and then some tweaking to the EQ. 

I learned something about the MS-8 yet again in dropping to just one sub channel even when I don't have to. Usually I'm running center on other builds, so I'm defaulted to one channel on those. I've installed an MS-8 7 times now, this is the first time I've had a stereo-only system to work with. But for those with excessive boom, check to see if you're running one or two sub outs.


----------



## Carlton8000

I am dipping my toes into MS-8 land. Already had a major mishap and destroyed the cable for the display. Anyone know the replacement part number and source to obtain one?

A question for experts on output configuration? For 8 inch or larger woofers installed in doors with bass output from 40hz-150hz should the outputs be configured as midrange or subwoofer? Pros vs Cons of each. 

Thanks in Advance


----------



## kaigoss69

Carlton8000 said:


> I am dipping my toes into MS-8 land. Already had a major mishap and destroyed the cable for the display. Anyone know replacement part number and source?
> 
> A question for experts on output configuration? For 8 inch or larger woofers installed in doors with bass output from 40hz-150hz should the outputs be configured as midrange or subwoofer? Pros vs Cons of each.
> 
> Thanks in Advance


Boy, good luck on finding that cable!!!

Midbass woofers should be designated as such - woofers. If you make them subs, they will not get EQ'ed properly.


----------



## Carlton8000

kaigoss69 said:


> Boy, good luck on finding that cable!!!
> /QUOTE]
> 
> This is definitely bad news.


----------



## Lanson

kaigoss69 said:


> I think you should try again, this time play with the level of the sub sweeps during calibration. I think though that when the sub is in the trunk, and there is no larger opening connecting cabin and trunk, then it is more difficult to het the sub to integrate. So if you have fold down seat, or a ski pass, definitely open up whatever you can during calibrations.


For clarity's sake, this is the install:


















This is a hatchback, it is a straight shot acoustically from the sub to the cabin. 

But also keep in mind, my sub is integrating beautifully now that I've cut some frequencies that were over-boosted (likely by cabin gain alone) in the upper 40's, low 50's region, AND by only using one sub output instead of two. That's the biggest difference I've noticed. I can't get there with both connected, the sub is WAY overpowered.


----------



## Lanson

Carlton8000 said:


> I am dipping my toes into MS-8 land. Already had a major mishap and destroyed the cable for the display. Anyone know the replacement part number and source to obtain one?
> 
> A question for experts on output configuration? For 8 inch or larger woofers installed in doors with bass output from 40hz-150hz should the outputs be configured as midrange or subwoofer? Pros vs Cons of each.
> 
> Thanks in Advance



Can you cut the destroyed part and splice (carefully!) the remaining good parts?


----------



## thehatedguy

Who has run sub(s) in front with the MS-8?


----------



## Carlton8000

fourthmeal said:


> Can you cut the destroyed part and splice (carefully!) the remaining good parts?


This may be my only choice if they are not available as a replacement part.


----------



## Lanson

Carlton8000 said:


> This may be my only choice if they are not available as a replacement part.


As I understand it, there are no replacement parts that I'm aware of. 

But you should be able to fix it. I don't know the makeup but I would assume it is either twisted pair, or coaxial. Either one you can fix in a pinch.


----------



## 93Akkord

t3sn4f2 said:


> You'd need a compatible Bluetooth receiver that has analog outputs. As well as the accompanying power converter. After that you just plug the outputs from the Bluetooth receiver into the ms-8 line inputs like any other source. You might however want to get a good quality line driver if the Bluetooth device puts out a very low output voltage. That way the ms-8 has a strong signal to work with AND as a result puts out a strong signal to the amps.
> 
> This thread should give you a good idea about the available Bluetooth options.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/168568-smartphone-processor-connection-testing-airenabler-optical-spdif-wireless.html


Thanks for info! But I'm a little confused.. probably because I didn't give any info on my setup. This is my current setup:


Pioneer AVH-X4600BT
Pioneer TS-D1720C x 2 in the front
No speakers in the rear currently
Soundstream TN5.950D 5 channel amp
NVX NSW124 x 1

I'm mostly confused about why I would need a separate Bluetooth receive with analog outputs and what not since I've been playing music via a2dp and the head unit since day one. Been using mods such as Viper4Android as my DSP (lol), but I'm looking to take the next step. Please mind my newbness.


----------



## t3sn4f2

93Akkord said:


> Thanks for info! But I'm a little confused.. probably because I didn't give any info on my setup. This is my current setup:
> 
> 
> Pioneer AVH-X4600BT
> Pioneer TS-D1720C x 2 in the front
> No speakers in the rear currently
> Soundstream TN5.950D 5 channel amp
> NVX NSW124 x 1
> 
> I'm mostly confused about why I would need a separate Bluetooth receive with analog outputs and what not since I've been playing music via a2dp and the head unit since day one. Been using mods such as Viper4Android as my DSP (lol), but I'm looking to take the next step. Please mind my newbness.



Yup, new info. changes things. 

The MS-8 will work just fine with your system. Traditional bluetooth music streaming to a head unit is completely separate from the MS-8 and from what the ms-8 does. It's just one more music source from your headunit basically. 

The only issue with Bluetooth and the ms-8 you might want to be aware of is that some hands free Bluetooth head units are not compatible with the ms-8 in the sense of making phone calls. There is an echo type sound during the calls. There is a firmware update though that offers you the work around of turning the mute button on the ms-8 remote into a temporary processing bypass toggle. Which restores the Bluetooth call quality until you enable processing once again after the phone call.

If you have that issue you can also try routing Bluetooth calls out to the rear speaker outputs from the head unit, and then feeding the ms-8 with only the front line level outputs. Then mount a small full range speaker (maybe an small cheap fullrange speaker) under the dash somewhere and wire it to the rear speaker outputs of the head unit. Then when you get a call, it won't go through the ms-8 and will sound fine. The music then goes out the front only, into the ms-8. You will loose fader from the head unit though, if that's important to you.


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

Carlton8000 said:


> I am dipping my toes into MS-8 land. Already had a major mishap and destroyed the cable for the display. Anyone know the replacement part number and source to obtain one?
> 
> A question for experts on output configuration? For 8 inch or larger woofers installed in doors with bass output from 40hz-150hz should the outputs be configured as midrange or subwoofer? Pros vs Cons of each.
> 
> Thanks in Advance


Curious if you find a source for that cable as well.


----------



## 93Akkord

t3sn4f2 said:


> Yup, new info. changes things.
> 
> The MS-8 will work just fine with your system. Traditional bluetooth music streaming to a head unit is completely separate from the MS-8 and from what the ms-8 does. It's just one more music source from your headunit basically.
> 
> The only issue with Bluetooth and the ms-8 you might want to be aware of is that some hands free Bluetooth head units are not compatible with the ms-8 in the sense of making phone calls. There is an echo type sound during the calls. There is a firmware update though that offers you the work around of turning the mute button on the ms-8 remote into a temporary processing bypass toggle. Which restores the Bluetooth call quality until you enable processing once again after the phone call.
> 
> If you have that issue you can also try routing Bluetooth calls out to the rear speaker outputs from the head unit, and then feeding the ms-8 with only the front line level outputs. Then mount a small full range speaker (maybe an small cheap fullrange speaker) under the dash somewhere and wire it to the rear speaker outputs of the head unit. Then when you get a call, it won't go through the ms-8 and will sound fine. The music then goes out the front only, into the ms-8. You will loose fader from the head unit though, if that's important to you.


Perfect! That's what I was hoping to hear. Normally I wouldn't have thought to ask, but like you said, I saw people mention the echo problem with Bluetooth and wanted to make sure that the echo wasn't persistent in music playback. The music is priority number 1 for me. I can always switch my phone calls to private


----------



## Carlton8000

bigaudiofanatic said:


> Curious if you find a source for that cable as well.


I just got off the phone with JBL and placed an order for three replacement cables. I received a confirmation for the order and was told they will ship out in 2-3 days. 

W-2100-0012-00 DISPLAY CABLE $8.69 3 / each $26.07 

Total Order Value: $26.07


----------



## Lanson

That's incredible, I had no idea they had them!

I wonder if they also have headphones, displays, etc. 

If so, that's a game changer for folks with broken bits on the MS-8. 



Carlton8000 said:


> I just got off the phone with JBL and placed an order for three replacement cables. I received a confirmation for the order and was told they will ship out in 2-3 days.
> 
> W-2100-0012-00 DISPLAY CABLE $8.69 3 / each $26.07
> 
> Total Order Value: $26.07


----------



## jdsoldger

fourthmeal said:


> That's incredible, I had no idea they had them!
> 
> I wonder if they also have headphones, displays, etc.
> 
> If so, that's a game changer for folks with broken bits on the MS-8.


I wonder if they have the headsets as well. Would love to have a spare! I will have to give them a call.


----------



## thehatedguy

Curious as well.


----------



## Elgrosso

Carlton8000 said:


> I just got off the phone with JBL and placed an order for three replacement cables. I received a confirmation for the order and was told they will ship out in 2-3 days.
> 
> W-2100-0012-00 DISPLAY CABLE $8.69 3 / each $26.07
> 
> Total Order Value: $26.07


Cool thank you!
Will grab what I can


----------



## T3mpest

fourthmeal said:


> That's incredible, I had no idea they had them!
> 
> I wonder if they also have headphones, displays, etc.
> 
> If so, that's a game changer for folks with broken bits on the MS-8.


When I called about a broken headphone about 2 years ago, they did. Only part they said they couldn't ship would be a brand new processor if I had every other peice, had to get that all as a kit. I beleive I talked about that before somewhere in this monster of a thread, who knows by now though lol.


----------



## Lanson

That's really good then, because I was under the impression that replacement parts were not available. 

I almost feel like I should order some extra parts J.I.C., because those prices are really reasonable.


----------



## jdsoldger

No headsets available. And no ETA on them.


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

Carlton8000 said:


> I just got off the phone with JBL and placed an order for three replacement cables. I received a confirmation for the order and was told they will ship out in 2-3 days.
> 
> W-2100-0012-00 DISPLAY CABLE $8.69 3 / each $26.07
> 
> Total Order Value: $26.07


Great news to hear 

About the headsets thats not such good news


----------



## Elgrosso

I think it's said somewhere in this thread that the headset was based on a panasonic mic, may worth a research?


----------



## jdsoldger

Elgrosso said:


> I think it's said somewhere in this thread that the headset was based on a panasonic mic, may worth a research?


I would be willing to put money on it being a bog standard panasonic electret. They are very flat, consistent, inexpensive and are used all over. I am on the hunt for a broken headset to tare apart, if anyone has one.

I need to look at my set and see if it can be opened nondestructivly.


----------



## Elgrosso

jdsoldger said:


> I would be willing to put money on it being a bog standard panasonic electret. They are very flat, consistent, inexpensive and are used all over. I am on the hunt for a broken headset to tare apart, if anyone has one.
> 
> I need to look at my set and see if it can be opened nondestructivly.


Here, page 3 (don't know how to quote another thread):http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ar-audio-discussion/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq-3.html

"_Regarding the microphones: They are WM61 clones (since Panasonic no longer supplies those mics). THe reason that those are so popular is because they are so closely matched without a bunch of additional work. The correction file does correct for an average of severalmic capsules, but it also includes correction for the shape and size of the headphone plastic. Using another binaural microphone won't improve the results because the calibration file is designed for our plastic parts. The only difference between the headphone style and an in-ear style would be at very high frequencies. To be absolutely correct, the target curve would then have to be modified to account for that difference. 

Developing a binaural microphone, a correction filter for it and a target curve that takes all that into account and achieves a desired result is no small feat and has taken months of work in correlating listening tests, measurements with standard micropones and microphone arrays using a dummy head in the car and in a chamber. I'm not inclined to make that work public or to make modification easy, because we won't be able to assure good performance if we do._ "

Might be harder


----------



## Lanson

I remember Andy covering it, talking about how the mics are calibrated for the ear position and the shape, etc. But I'm going off memory from this epic thread.


----------



## jdsoldger

Elgrosso said:


> Here, page 3 (don't know how to quote another thread):http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ar-audio-discussion/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq-3.html
> 
> "_Regarding the microphones: They are WM61 clones (since Panasonic no longer supplies those mics). THe reason that those are so popular is because they are so closely matched without a bunch of additional work. The correction file does correct for an average of severalmic capsules, but it also includes correction for the shape and size of the headphone plastic. Using another binaural microphone won't improve the results because the calibration file is designed for our plastic parts. The only difference between the headphone style and an in-ear style would be at very high frequencies. To be absolutely correct, the target curve would then have to be modified to account for that difference.
> 
> Developing a binaural microphone, a correction filter for it and a target curve that takes all that into account and achieves a desired result is no small feat and has taken months of work in correlating listening tests, measurements with standard micropones and microphone arrays using a dummy head in the car and in a chamber. I'm not inclined to make that work public or to make modification easy, because we won't be able to assure good performance if we do._ "
> 
> Might be harder


That is 100% what my guess was. A similar pair of headphones, with mics put in would likely get close enough (that is what the 31 band geq is for) to make it work. The W61A was the goto standard for DIY measurement mics for the reasons stated above. Though I did find they are (as stated) discontinued. Though JLI makes a clone (JLI-W61A) for $2 each. A pair of those and a set of JBL headphones with the same plastics (because I bet they used the same molds as for their headphones) and building your own would likely be doable.


----------



## maggie-g

I just dropped them an email about a replacement display since I was dumb enough to crack the screen on mine and it wont display text now (backlight still works). Hopefully they have one of those kicking around too. your post brings me hope, carlton8000


----------



## Carlton8000

maggie-g said:


> I just dropped them an email about a replacement display since I was dumb enough to crack the screen on mine and it wont display text now (backlight still works). Hopefully they have one of those kicking around too. your post brings me hope, carlton8000


As of 03-02 in stock. 
Cost=$61.05
Part number W-XP-0001-000

Harman seems more responsive to direct phone communication vs email.


----------



## Lanson

Dang these parts are cheap.


----------



## maggie-g

thanks for the help! JBL actually responded right after I posted here. $64.77 shipped. I was expecting much worse. I was looking for a simple screen as a replacement but I was informed that the display actually has a micro processor in it so its something fancy.$64.77 is well worth it. Pricey mistake on my part, but it could have been much worse.


----------



## talan7

I installed an MS8 processor but my signal is low unless I turn my head units volume to 28. If I do that, the bass optimization eliminates practically all bass. I can't dial it back up with the processor because the stock stereo is eliminating frequencies, thus they aren't there to amplify. I'm assuming the bass roll off is done at the factory amp so I may 1st try and bypass the amp. My installer says my signal is the problem. Stock stereos give a low signal. Right now I'm getting a lot of static/noise on the right front tweeter and heard it was due to signal. At this point I want to change head units, but I do like my control knob in my car and don't want to lose it. I would like to see if I can tap the signal before the amp. Also, I wonder if idatalink maestro could help me if I change head units but keep my amp. Does anyone have experience with it?


----------



## Lanson

Helpful here to know exactly what car and system we're talking about.



talan7 said:


> I installed an MS8 processor but my signal is low unless I turn my head units volume to 28. If I do that, the bass optimization eliminates practically all bass. I can't dial it back up with the processor because the stock stereo is eliminating frequencies, thus they aren't there to amplify. I'm assuming the bass roll off is done at the factory amp so I may 1st try and bypass the amp. My installer says my signal is the problem. Stock stereos give a low signal. Right now I'm getting a lot of static/noise on the right front tweeter and heard it was due to signal. At this point I want to change head units, but I do like my control knob in my car and don't want to lose it. I would like to see if I can tap the signal before the amp. Also, I wonder if idatalink maestro could help me if I change head units but keep my amp. Does anyone have experience with it?


----------



## Arthur71

I had a similar issue. I used the low level inputs. They are essentially the same kind of inputs, differential, only they require a lower signal swing to provide a OKOKOK signal.


----------



## talan7

fourthmeal said:


> Helpful here to know exactly what car and system we're talking about.


2012 Buick regal GS with Harmon Kardon system. My stock amp controls some things like backup chime. I don't know what else. I'm hoping I can bypass the stock amp. I really want to change head unit but like my knob on center console.


----------



## FordEscape

Some general questions about this from the MS-8 manual:

_*Processing:* The Audio Controls Processing option activates and defeats the MS-8’s digital time-correction and acoustic-equalization circuitry. Using the Select button to switch between Active and Defeat will let you hear how the MS-8’s advanced digital signal processing dramatically improves your system’s performance._

1) Does this mean that if Processing is set to "Defeat" the full-frequency-spectrum sound input from my HU speaker-level outputs into the MS-8 is sent to all speakers, attenuated only by the MS-8 master volume control? I understand that any MS-8 'tone' and 'EQ' settings are defeated, does Processing Defeat also 'remove' all of the MS-8 X-over settings I configured as part of the MS-8 setup procedure?

2) My setup uses 4 speaker-level input channels from the HU (Front left & right, Rear(side) left & right). The MS-8 is configured with 3-way front (sub as Front Lo) and 1-way side (all 8 outputs utilized). When Processing is set to Defeat, where does the MS-8 'direct' each input channel since one does not identify which inputs are front /rear during configuration (or does the MS-8 'identify' the inputs itself when I go thru the CD-based HU configuration to arrive at OK-OK-OK)?

3) The bottom-line ... does Processing Defeat effectively make the MS-8 a straight 'pass-thru' of my OEM HU signals to the 'appropriate' F/R speakers?

My questions probably belie my lack of real understanding about how the MS-8 'works' in spite of reading this entire thread and the manual more than once. I'm not asking about the L7 aspect, Andy's early post with diagrams about L7 has me thinking I understand that aspect; I'm trying to understand "Processing" distinct from "Logic 7". I'm more than happy with the sound from my system, just wanting to understand a bit better how it all 'works' and make sure I don't damage anything (like tweeters in spite of 22uf capacitors on them) by playing with the buttons ;-).

TIA


----------



## MetricMuscle

talan7 said:


> I installed an MS8 processor but my signal is low unless I turn my head units volume to 28. If I do that, the bass optimization eliminates practically all bass. I can't dial it back up with the processor because the stock stereo is eliminating frequencies, thus they aren't there to amplify. I'm assuming the bass roll off is done at the factory amp so I may 1st try and bypass the amp. My installer says my signal is the problem. Stock stereos give a low signal. Right now I'm getting a lot of static/noise on the right front tweeter and heard it was due to signal. At this point I want to change head units, but I do like my control knob in my car and don't want to lose it. I would like to see if I can tap the signal before the amp. Also, I wonder if idatalink maestro could help me if I change head units but keep my amp. Does anyone have experience with it?





Arthur71 said:


> I had a similar issue. I used the low level inputs. They are essentially the same kind of inputs, differential, only they require a lower signal swing to provide a OKOKOK signal.


I had the same issue.

Talan7, which inputs are you using on the MS-8?
Speaker level or the RCA's ?


----------



## Lanson

Answers in *Bold* for you



FordEscape said:


> Some general questions about this from the MS-8 manual:
> 
> _*Processing:* The Audio Controls Processing option activates and defeats the MS-8’s digital time-correction and acoustic-equalization circuitry. Using the Select button to switch between Active and Defeat will let you hear how the MS-8’s advanced digital signal processing dramatically improves your system’s performance._
> 
> 1) Does this mean that if Processing is set to "Defeat" the full-frequency-spectrum sound input from my HU speaker-level outputs into the MS-8 is sent to all speakers, attenuated only by the MS-8 master volume control? I understand that any MS-8 'tone' and 'EQ' settings are defeated, does Processing Defeat also 'remove' all of the MS-8 X-over settings I configured as part of the MS-8 setup procedure?
> 
> *Defeating will not send a full-range signal out, however if you go to the "hidden" menu you can choose "pass through" full-range output so that would be ill-advised to do on your setup. *
> 
> *Processing defeat still lets you hear the EQ you're adding or subtracting, which is pretty cool. *
> 
> 2) My setup uses 4 speaker-level input channels from the HU (Front left & right, Rear(side) left & right). The MS-8 is configured with 3-way front (sub as Front Lo) and 1-way side (all 8 outputs utilized). When Processing is set to Defeat, where does the MS-8 'direct' each input channel since one does not identify which inputs are front /rear during configuration (or does the MS-8 'identify' the inputs itself when I go thru the CD-based HU configuration to arrive at OK-OK-OK)?
> 
> *Defeat doesn't seem to do much other than just defeat the EQ created during acoustic calibration. *
> 
> 3) The bottom-line ... does Processing Defeat effectively make the MS-8 a straight 'pass-thru' of my OEM HU signals to the 'appropriate' F/R speakers?
> 
> *Nope but that "hidden menu" one will.*
> 
> My questions probably belie my lack of real understanding about how the MS-8 'works' in spite of reading this entire thread and the manual more than once. I'm not asking about the L7 aspect, Andy's early post with diagrams about L7 has me thinking I understand that aspect; I'm trying to understand "Processing" distinct from "Logic 7". I'm more than happy with the sound from my system, just wanting to understand a bit better how it all 'works' and make sure I don't damage anything (like tweeters in spite of 22uf capacitors on them) by playing with the buttons ;-).
> 
> 
> TIA


----------



## thehatedguy

Wait, what's the hidden menu again?


----------



## FordEscape

*^^^ Thanks*, fourthmeal 



thehatedguy said:


> Wait, what's the hidden menu again?


Lol, back a few pages, senility is rough, DAMHIK


----------



## Elgrosso

The one where you can overclock the ms8 to 8x100w, add some channels or unlock the L7 to L24


----------



## Lanson

Elgrosso said:


> The one where you can overclock the ms8 to 8x100w, add some channels or unlock the L7 to L24


Yeah its called "jet noise". lol jk


No the hidden menu can be accessed by holding the left button down for a couple seconds, and then immediately press the right button for a couple seconds and it will pop up. 

It isn't particularly useful unless you want to smoke some tweeters with full-range. But at very, very low volume (using the master MS-8 volume, not the head unit), it is interesting to play with.


----------



## Elgrosso

Yep, it's cool for level match!


----------



## thehatedguy

Takes mental note...must have forgotten about that, or it was talked about after I had to get rid of my MS8 the first time.

Have another one here, so all is good.


----------



## FordEscape

fourthmeal said:


> .....It isn't particularly useful unless you want to smoke some tweeters with full-range.....


_*That's*_ the one I want to stay-away from ... thanks all for a great thread.

BTW fourthmeal ... yes, even better re-calibrated with the Ford HU output set for 'all seats' rather than 'driver', that was a dumb oversight   

Methinks the MS-8 was indeed fighting to overcome that HU-induced 'driver' bias; an obvious immediate effect of the correct HU output setting was achieving "level OK" on the MS-8 with much lower HU volume setting. All is good now, I really appreciate your help.


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

jdsoldger said:


> No headsets available. And no ETA on them.


JBL told me end of the month.


----------



## sunshinefc3s

fourthmeal said:


> I recal'd after installing the KS900.6 amp I got from eBay (more on that later), and this time I cal'd with just channel 7 as "sub", instead of running both 7 and 8. This seems to be key to getting the sub bass under control, for my setup. I had to massively cut @ the low bass (40's-50's) on EQ to get it tamed, due to some excessive boom (going to blame the hatchback shape on that one), and it sounds pretty good overall.


Just wanted to point one more thing out, forthmeal (and others using an ARC KS series, in this case a KS 900.6)

This email from ARC Tech Support:
"The gain range of the KS 900.6 is .250V (fully clockwise) to 4V (fully counter clockwise) so the 2V range should be slightly more than the half way point but I have never tested that."


----------



## talan7

MetricMuscle said:


> I had the same issue.
> 
> Talan7, which inputs are you using on the MS-8?
> Speaker level or the RCA's ?


I'll take a picture and post it on tomorrow. I don't know if my intermittent static is the signal, the ms8 or my stock amp. Sometimes it sounds great, other times I get all kinds of static/distortion mostly when I'm moving


----------



## talan7

Elgrosso said:


> Yep, it's cool for level match!


You say the hidden menu is good for level matching? You can't turn up volume on individual channels, can you?


----------



## Elgrosso

talan7 said:


> You say the hidden menu is good for level matching? You can't turn up volume on individual channels, can you?


No, sure, but you can play pink noise in all channels independantly.
Then adjust gain etc to match, if you want.


----------



## camfreem7

hey quick question fellas, I just had some new amps installed, a 4 channel bridged to my mids and a 2 channel bridged to my sub. So I have two concerns:

One, I have a PHD 2200 bridged to my sub, here is the manual for all their amps but you can find the wiring info on just the 2200 on there

http://www.phd.it/welcome_to/pdf/PHD_Amplifiers_Manual_2010.pdf

Right now the shop has just a single RCA cord going from channel 8 out on the MS-8 to the Left Rca Input on the 2 channel amp. Do I need a Y splitter to make that go into the Left and Right Inputs of the Amp.

Second, I am bridging a PHD 4075 to my mids, see the above link. I have ran the output set up about 5 times trying to figure out what channels each of my mids and tweeters are on, the problem I am running into is I can't get any sound to play out of my right mid no matter what I assign to it. Admittedly, I had to give up and go to work so there are still probably combinations to try and gains to mess with but since I know what channels my rears, center, and sub are on there shouldn't be too many different combinations.

Could there be a problem with how my amp is hooked up that maybe nothing is being sent to my right mid? I am not too familiar with how a bridged 4 channel amp should look but this shop is actually really good so I am pretty confident they did it correctly.

Any thoughts?


----------



## Jepalan

camfreem7 said:


> One, I have a PHD 2200 bridged to my sub, here is the manual for all their amps but you can find the wiring info on just the 2200 on there
> 
> http://www.phd.it/welcome_to/pdf/PHD_Amplifiers_Manual_2010.pdf
> 
> Right now the shop has just a single RCA cord going from channel 8 out on the MS-8 to the Left Rca Input on the 2 channel amp. Do I need a Y splitter to make that go into the Left and Right Inputs of the Amp.


I looked at the manual for the 2200. Yes, you need a y-splitter to both amp inputs if you want to run that amp bridged to your sub. I am surprised the shop did not know this.

How are the RCAs connected to the inputs of your 4075?


----------



## FordEscape

Still lovin the MS-8 system but for giggles decided to install the on-hand Alpine MRV-F300 amp ([email protected]) to drive the sailplane tweeters and front doors. Carefully set gains on the amp to 2v, defeated all its internal filters, reset MS-8 to defaults and re-ran setup keeping all the MS-8 Xovers etc. same as without the amp.

During the pink-noise speaker output test all the volumes seemed equal (by ear) which I _think_ is the goal at that stage with the external amp *(?)*

Anyway, when all done, the sound seemed about the same as without the amp, _maybe_ the tweeters/highs seemed slightly 'brighter', (traps and cymbals sound more vibrant and crisp) which I like but the volume of the sailplane tweets relative to the doors still seemed a bit high for my music test tracks and ears. When I played with the EQ to adjust that (lowering the level of higher frequencies, playing with several 'curves') it seemed to remove some of the desired 'brightness' along with the sound level reduction.

So, I went back to flat on the EQ and very slightly adjusted the gain on the MRV-F300 channels driving the tweeters to reduce the volume on those. Liking that very much, will now live with this version of the setup for awhile.

I don't understand the why the different effect between the tweeter amp gain adjustment vs the EQ adjustment ... if someone would care to comment / educate me on that t'would be appreciated, I'd like to understand the 'why' behind what I hear. Thinking I don't understand what lowering the EQ for a given range of frequencies really does?

TIA


----------



## camfreem7

Jepalan said:


> I looked at the manual for the 2200. Yes, you need a y-splitter to both amp inputs if you want to run that amp bridged to your sub. I am surprised the shop did not know this.
> 
> How are the RCAs connected to the inputs of your 4075?


I'm glad you asked because I was having problems with it, initially there was just one pair of RCAs with one plug going into the L front channel and one plug going into the L rear channel, this was causing the pink noise to either come out of both mids or neither. 

So what I did was I got a couple Y splitters and another set of RCAs so one set is plugged into L and R on the front channels of the amp with a Y splitter converting them into a single male plug that I plug into one channel of the MS-8, did the same thing for the rear channels of the amp going into another MS-8 channel. This did seem to fix that.

If anyone could tell me if this was done correctly that would be very helpful.


----------



## camfreem7

Oh I almost forgot, I am having some issues with my Left front woofer/mid whatever its called. At relatively high volumes it distorts and sounds really terrible in the low end, I'm guessing around 80-100 hz since I have them crossed at 80. The thing is, this is not happening with my right mid so I am guessing its not my crossover points or my EQ.

So what I am wondering is if its a phase issue? Should I try swapping the polarity? And if I do, do I then have to re-calibrate?

Or I am noticing that during the first set of sweeps (TA) it is starting on my right side, whereas the rest of the 3 sweeps start on my left side. When I would calibrate in the past before I had some work done it would also always start on the left side for all the sweeps.

Basically, what I am wondering is does the MS-8 think the sound coming from the right speakers during the first sweep is coming from my left and visa versa? I know this is kind of confusing but just a thought I had.


----------



## Lanson

camfreem7 said:


> Oh I almost forgot, I am having some issues with my Left front woofer/mid whatever its called. At relatively high volumes it distorts and sounds really terrible in the low end, I'm guessing around 80-100 hz since I have them crossed at 80. The thing is, this is not happening with my right mid so I am guessing its not my crossover points or my EQ.
> 
> So what I am wondering is if its a phase issue? Should I try swapping the polarity? And if I do, do I then have to re-calibrate?
> 
> Or I am noticing that during the first set of sweeps (TA) it is starting on my right side, whereas the rest of the 3 sweeps start on my left side. When I would calibrate in the past before I had some work done it would also always start on the left side for all the sweeps.
> 
> Basically, what I am wondering is does the MS-8 think the sound coming from the right speakers during the first sweep is coming from my left and visa versa? I know this is kind of confusing but just a thought I had.


Just make sure in output testing that left and right are correct. Also I had a similar issue with the LF over-boosting, until I recalibrated with a higher cross point (just 5-10Hz diff) and also I noticed a significant difference in calibration windows down vs. windows up. Of course this is expected but windows down calibrations made the midbass really ploddy and nasty sounding. So, don't calibrate this way.


----------



## dengland

camfreem7 said:


> So what I am wondering is if its a phase issue? Should I try swapping the polarity? And if I do, do I then have to re-calibrate?


I would say phase is very important. Out of phase inputs on the input side will create cancellations and will effect the tune. 

I spent quite a bit of time getting it right and have gotten the best tune to date. I had issues on both input and output side. For the 1st time, the audio levels did not decrease when processing was active. Since I had problems on both sides of the MS-8, it was really tough to track down without checking each input and output. I would not necessarily trust the OEM documentation.

I had good luck with the $20 iPhone app (AudioTools) from Studio Six Digital. I am still waiting on a hardware tester after 5 weeks..... 

Yes, you will need to recalibrate if you find something wrong.


----------



## slpery

Would I notice a difference in sound quality, if I upgraded my factory Toyota headunit to an aftermarket unit? (pioneer 8650) Or is a cd laser a cd laser? 

Im using the speaker level inputs at present.


----------



## camfreem7

I definitely always calibrate with the windows up because I didn't want outside noise getting in. I just re calibrated and made sure all the outputs were good so I guess the first set of sweeps just go in the order of the outputs and then the rest of them go from left to right.

I am still having the over-excursion/distortion/whatever it is on my left mid when it tries to play down low. I do need to try a higher crossover point but that's frustrating because my right one plays just fine. Does anyone know if I could have damaged the speaker ? They are one of the only pieces of my setup under warranty so I might go swap em out but they had to order them so it will probably take awhile. 

It didn't use to do this but granted that was using various different calibrations so who knows. I will check the phase issue tomorrow but wouodnt that effect both of them rather than just one?


----------



## DLO13

slpery said:


> Would I notice a difference in sound quality, if I upgraded my factory Toyota headunit to an aftermarket unit? (pioneer 8650) Or is a cd laser a cd laser?
> 
> Im using the speaker level inputs at present.


Short answer, absolutely. The factory radio has a lot of built in EQ that you can't control.


----------



## t3sn4f2

DLO13 said:


> Short answer, absolutely. The factory radio has a lot of built in EQ that you can't control.


x2

The problem is not the CD transport, it's every component and process between it and the outputs of the head unit that can degrade the quality. Is it written in stone that you improve perceived performance? No, you'll have to evaluate it on your final system iteration.


----------



## Lanson

camfreem7 said:


> I definitely always calibrate with the windows up because I didn't want outside noise getting in. I just re calibrated and made sure all the outputs were good so I guess the first set of sweeps just go in the order of the outputs and then the rest of them go from left to right.
> 
> I am still having the over-excursion/distortion/whatever it is on my left mid when it tries to play down low. I do need to try a higher crossover point but that's frustrating because my right one plays just fine. Does anyone know if I could have damaged the speaker ? They are one of the only pieces of my setup under warranty so I might go swap em out but they had to order them so it will probably take awhile.
> 
> It didn't use to do this but granted that was using various different calibrations so who knows. I will check the phase issue tomorrow but wouodnt that effect both of them rather than just one?



Try a 5-10hz higher crossover point, and/or a steeper slope if you've not gone with 24dB/oct slope yet.


----------



## Elgrosso

FordEscape said:


> ...
> So, I went back to flat on the EQ and very slightly adjusted the gain on the MRV-F300 channels driving the tweeters to reduce the volume on those. Liking that very much, will now live with this version of the setup for awhile.
> 
> I don't understand the why the different effect between the tweeter amp gain adjustment vs the EQ adjustment ... if someone would care to comment / educate me on that t'would be appreciated, I'd like to understand the 'why' behind what I hear. Thinking I don't understand what lowering the EQ for a given range of frequencies really does?
> 
> TIA


About the sound before/after amp, did you crank it really up to check? Should be better than before, especially for the doors.

Did you recalibrate after the lower gain?
A lower gain on tweeters channels would have the same effect than EQ down the whole tweeters range after the amps, less db everywhere.

About the ear level matching, an spl meter is a good tool.
My ears were not precise enough to describe the difference in db.
I'm sure MS8 does not need a perfect match, but just to be sure it won't run out of cut/boost I try to match them precisely.
I'd say you should try to rematch them, but also maybe you just don't like the MS8 target curve? too bright?


----------



## Elgrosso

camfreem7 said:


> I definitely always calibrate with the windows up because I didn't want outside noise getting in. I just re calibrated and made sure all the outputs were good so I guess the first set of sweeps just go in the order of the outputs and then the rest of them go from left to right.
> 
> I am still having the over-excursion/distortion/whatever it is on my left mid when it tries to play down low. I do need to try a higher crossover point but that's frustrating because my right one plays just fine. Does anyone know if I could have damaged the speaker ? They are one of the only pieces of my setup under warranty so I might go swap em out but they had to order them so it will probably take awhile.
> 
> It didn't use to do this but granted that was using various different calibrations so who knows. I will check the phase issue tomorrow but wouodnt that effect both of them rather than just one?


And maybe ms-8 boost it too much since it's the left one?
I may have miss this but did you already swap them to check?

About the sweeps, I'm not sure but I think ms8 just uses the channel order on the input definition screen. So it could start with left or right depending of your setup.


----------



## talan7

Ok I finally decided to pull the plug and replace my head unit on my 12 buick regal GS. 
My current setup has stock radio with JBL gto components up front and gto's all around except for stock center. I will replace that with gto. The problem is that I have 4 x 100 w/channel going to components and rear deck and all other speakers running of the ms8. I can't get it to calibrate exactly as I want because it's hard to get the levels balanced. Also, my stock signal isn't strong and I have to go through the stock amp which cuts bass as I turn it up. To get the ok, ok, ok, on ms8 I have to turn my stock radio too loud, and my bass is totally rolled off at that point. 

Here is my list;

1 Pioneer AVIC-8100NEX head unit (new item)
2 HSK 165 XL - Hertz 6.5" 2-Way Component Speakers or Pioneer Stage 4 TS-C172PRS run active (new item)
3 2 JBL MS A1004 4 channel amps (have 1 now installed)
4 1 JBL MS A5001 1 chanell amp (already installed)
5 I jbl MS8 processor (already installed)
6 JBL GTO rear doors, rear deck, and center channel speakers to round out, all installed except for center.

Adding 1 more amp I'm thinking I'll either run 1 of 3 ways;

Passive components up front (channels 1-2), rear deck (3-4), rear doors (5-6), center (7), sub (8)
or
Active components up front (channels 1-4), rear deck (5-6), sub (8)
or
Active components up front (channels 1-4), rear deck (5-6), center (7), sub (8)
In every configuration the speakers would be getting 100 w per channel, sub 500 watts... rms
Which would sound better? Also the Hertz XLs or the Pioneer stage 4s?
Running the components passive consistently gets me lower sound levels in the front relative to my rear deck so I'm inclined to run active, especially with the new speakers.


----------



## talan7

Oh, forgot. I'll lose my xm and my on star for now but will get the idatalink maestro RR when it is finally available for my car. My installer was on the phone with them recently regarding my car and they say they will soon have firmware for it. Once that's available I'll install and get on star and xm if I want it then. Oh and my back up chimes as well.


----------



## FordEscape

Elgrosso said:


> About the sound before/after amp, did you crank it really up to check? Should be better than before, especially for the doors.


Not sure what "crank it up really" is but I listened at the highest levels I use. Either way, the amp it certainly isn't hurting anything so I can detect so it'll stay in anticipation of future speaker upgrades.



Elgrosso said:


> Did you recalibrate after the lower gain?
> A lower gain on tweeters channels would have the same effect than EQ down the whole tweeters range after the amps, less db everywhere.


I did not recalibrate after reducing the gain because I figured that'd result in MS-8 adjusting everything down to the same relative level between the tweets and doors as the pre-gain tweak condition (i.e. the 'MS-8 curve').



Elgrosso said:


> I'd say you should try to rematch them, but also maybe you just don't like the MS8 target curve? too bright?


I may not be using correct terms, I like what I'm calling 'brightness' (the 'crisp sharpness') of the tweeters but obviously I in this specific installation I like it better with a slightly attenuated level (without losing what I'm calling 'brightness') for the whole tweeter spectrum, so yes, by adjusting the gain after calibration I'm deviating from the MS-8 curve across the whole tweeter range.

Had a short road trip the last two days with 8 hrs in the car with a variety of music and levels and am happy with the result in any case. At least now knowing I'm keeping the amp in the loop I can finalize my 'permanent' installation of the amp+MS-8 under the passenger seat and get 'em off the rear floor (can still access everything for any gain tweaks I want to make in the future)


----------



## MetricMuscle

talan7 said:


> Also, my stock signal isn't strong and I have to go through the stock amp which cuts bass as I turn it up. To get the ok, ok, ok, on ms8 I have to turn my stock radio too loud, and my bass is totally rolled off at that point.


How are you connecting your factory head unit to MS-8?
Are you connecting to the speaker level input wires or are you connecting to the line level RCA jacks?


----------



## talan7

MetricMuscle said:


> How are you connecting your factory head unit to MS-8?
> Are you connecting to the speaker level input wires or are you connecting to the line level RCA jacks?


Rca jacks


----------



## camfreem7

Elgrosso said:


> And maybe ms-8 boost it too much since it's the left one?
> I may have miss this but did you already swap them to check?
> 
> About the sweeps, I'm not sure but I think ms8 just uses the channel order on the input definition screen. So it could start with left or right depending of your setup.


I actually hadn't mentioned it but I did just think of swapping the RCAs last night, so before I did anything else I swapped em so the MS-8 was sending what it was sending to the left to the right instead and the right started doing the same thing so at least I know the speaker isn't damaged and its what the MS-8 is doing.

However, I recalibrated and did both front seats which I hadn't done in awhile, now it still did it when on the driver setting but when it was on Passenger or Front it stopped. I mean it still does it but only at much higher volumes and through both speakers so it has to be the way it is EQing for the Driver position.

I still need to swap polarity and see if its out of phase or what not but it seems weird that it would only do it for the Driver. Does Andy still post in this thread? I haven't seen him post for a bit but if anyone else has any ideas I would really appreciate it.


----------



## Elgrosso

camfreem7 said:


> I actually hadn't mentioned it but I did just think of swapping the RCAs last night, so before I did anything else I swapped em so the MS-8 was sending what it was sending to the left to the right instead and the right started doing the same thing so at least I know the speaker isn't damaged and its what the MS-8 is doing.
> 
> However, I recalibrated and did both front seats which I hadn't done in awhile, now it still did it when on the driver setting but when it was on Passenger or Front it stopped. I mean it still does it but only at much higher volumes and through both speakers so it has to be the way it is EQing for the Driver position.
> 
> I still need to swap polarity and see if its out of phase or what not but it seems weird that it would only do it for the Driver. Does Andy still post in this thread? I haven't seen him post for a bit but if anyone else has any ideas I would really appreciate it.


Well I've never experienced this due to ms8 (Just sometimes with bad records, that I trash immediately).
You could try to cross them higher if you listen really loud?


----------



## Elgrosso

FordEscape said:


> Not sure what "crank it up really" is but I listened at the highest levels I use. Either way, the amp it certainly isn't hurting anything so I can detect so it'll stay in anticipation of future speaker upgrades.
> 
> I did not recalibrate after reducing the gain because I figured that'd result in MS-8 adjusting everything down to the same relative level between the tweets and doors as the pre-gain tweak condition (i.e. the 'MS-8 curve').
> 
> I may not be using correct terms, I like what I'm calling 'brightness' (the 'crisp sharpness') of the tweeters but obviously I in this specific installation I like it better with a slightly attenuated level (without losing what I'm calling 'brightness') for the whole tweeter spectrum, so yes, by adjusting the gain after calibration I'm deviating from the MS-8 curve across the whole tweeter range.
> 
> Had a short road trip the last two days with 8 hrs in the car with a variety of music and levels and am happy with the result in any case. At least now knowing I'm keeping the amp in the loop I can finalize my 'permanent' installation of the amp+MS-8 under the passenger seat and get 'em off the rear floor (can still access everything for any gain tweaks I want to make in the future)


I see what you mean, on the very last cal I did the same on the tweeters: -5db on the amp after, and I enjoyed it (well I'm not done with all this that's why I try REW to get a better idea of what's going on).


----------



## 14642

dengland said:


> I would say phase is very important. Out of phase inputs on the input side will create cancellations and will effect the tune.
> 
> I spent quite a bit of time getting it right and have gotten the best tune to date. I had issues on both input and output side. For the 1st time, the audio levels did not decrease when processing was active. Since I had problems on both sides of the MS-8, it was really tough to track down without checking each input and output. I would not necessarily trust the OEM documentation.
> 
> I had good luck with the $20 iPhone app (AudioTools) from Studio Six Digital. I am still waiting on a hardware tester after 5 weeks.....
> 
> Yes, you will need to recalibrate if you find something wrong.


MS-8 corrects the polarity of the inputs.


----------



## Jakkall

Hey guys! With the help of a local shop I did some changes to my 2014 overland's sound system.
I've changed the fronts with JL zr's 650 mids and tweets on a passive crossover, rear doors Jl c3's and a Jl Stealthbox.
Front, rear door and sub is powered by a JL HD 900/5 
Center speaker and d pillars are currently powered by the MS-8.

Of course...after everything was in place I got to the page on this thread where somebody was saying that if you run the center on 30w you would better run everything on MS-8 cos you won't make a difference anyway.
That was my "OH ****" momment. 
I can't say the curent setup sucks, not compared to default setup that's for sure! but the feeling is that smth is missing.
So I'm hoping that the L3SE I bought would make the difference.
I will also buy a JL HD600/4 but I'm not sure what would be best :
To run the fronts and center on the 600/4 and the rest on the 900/5 or run the fronts and rear doors on the 600/4 and the center with the rest on 900/5
The last option would keep the center on 100w and fronts on 150w kinda what I have now but at a different w level 
For now the d pillars will stay stock on the 900/5 I'll change them with some l3se once I have more$

Also if anyone can recommend some good xover points I would be grateful. I think right now sub is 65 fronts and rear pickup at 65, center is 250 and rear 400. 24 slopes.

I couldn't find a shop with an oscilloscope so the gains were setup by ear.
Tech was very helpfull but crazy busy so I couldn't afford to ask him to spend hours on my car while the phone was ringing every 5 min.
If you know any pro shops in NH or ME please let me know.
Thanks and sorry for long and noobish text.


----------



## camfreem7

Hey Jakkall, I actually ran the center of the MS-8 and everything else at about 80 watts for a couple months and after a lot of time and effort I was able to get it to sound pretty damn good. Here is what I did:

I turned down all the gains for my fronts and rears to about 9 o clock, so just 1/4 of the way up. Then I calibrated at -30db so that the center was considerably louder than the fronts and rears. I also had the sub gain turned down quite a bit so that you could hear it but it was pretty quite.

Now, right after calibration it sounded pretty bad, the center was very dominant and the fronts and rear quiet and lacking overall dynamics. So I turned up my gains to about 12 o'clock or halfway up, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less. Then I messed with turning up the center channel on the MS-8 system levels a bit, but I found it sounded great even without turning up the center.

Even the shop who installed it (who did a terrible job) remarked on how great it sounded when I brought it back in for something, and this was after they had been trashing the MS-8 telling me an LC2i or LC6i would blow it out of the water.

Hope this helps, but keep in mind I am also a noob and my noobishness is well documented throughout this thread so if someone else gives you different advice feel free to try that instead.


----------



## MetricMuscle

Is it permissible or has anyone attempted to wire in a quick disconnect plug like the factory 3.5mm jack for the microphone headset?
If your MS-8 is in the trunk, it isn't as easy to use the microphones for calibration as it would be if say installed under the passenger seat or in the hatch.
My install is in the trunk and there is a solid wall of steel between back seat and trunk and not easy to install any temporary wiring.
If I do install the mic wire permanently I may just have to leave the mic in the car and unplug it at the unit when done calibrating. I'd rather remove them.


----------



## CDT FAN

Wouldn't something like this work?

12ft 3.5mm Stereo Plug/Jack M/F Cable - Black - Monoprice.com

12ft 3.5mm Stereo Plug/Jack M/F Cable - Black 


The 3.5mm (1/8") stereo TRS connector is more commonly known as the Headphone Jack on portable mp3 players and mobile phones. This cable features a male 3.5mm stereo (TRS) plug on one end and a female stereo (TRS) jack on the other end, each with molded connector housings and strain relief boots. The cable is ideal for extending the reach of a fixed length 3.5mm stereo cable, such as the cable on a pair of earphones.


----------



## sunshinefc3s

CDT FAN said:


> Wouldn't something like this work?
> 
> 12ft 3.5mm Stereo Plug/Jack M/F Cable - Black - Monoprice.com
> 
> 12ft 3.5mm Stereo Plug/Jack M/F Cable - Black
> 
> 
> The 3.5mm (1/8") stereo TRS connector is more commonly known as the Headphone Jack on portable mp3 players and mobile phones. This cable features a male 3.5mm stereo (TRS) plug on one end and a female stereo (TRS) jack on the other end, each with molded connector housings and strain relief boots. The cable is ideal for extending the reach of a fixed length 3.5mm stereo cable, such as the cable on a pair of earphones.


Yes, but the issue is...does the MS-8's input plug sense that the headphone is plugged in, and does that cause the feedback issue? We don't know the answer, so to be safe, folks that have an extension, still unplug it at the unit just to be safe.


----------



## MetricMuscle

CDT FAN said:


> Wouldn't something like this work?
> 
> 12ft 3.5mm Stereo Plug/Jack M/F Cable - Black - Monoprice.com
> 
> 12ft 3.5mm Stereo Plug/Jack M/F Cable - Black
> 
> 
> The 3.5mm (1/8") stereo TRS connector is more commonly known as the Headphone Jack on portable mp3 players and mobile phones. This cable features a male 3.5mm stereo (TRS) plug on one end and a female stereo (TRS) jack on the other end, each with molded connector housings and strain relief boots. The cable is ideal for extending the reach of a fixed length 3.5mm stereo cable, such as the cable on a pair of earphones.





sunshinefc3s said:


> Yes, but the issue is...does the MS-8's input plug sense that the headphone is plugged in, and does that cause the feedback issue? We don't know the answer, so to be safe, folks that have an extension, still unplug it at the unit just to be safe.


I wouldn't want to extend the length of the cable any if I didn't have to. I was just thinking to get a male and female jack, cut the mic headphone cable where I can plug it in easily near my center console and install the two jacks. Leave the cable plugged into the MS-8 but unplug the headphones from the new jack. Easy Peasy.

I've seen where folks have discussed damaging the mic headphone due to not unplugging it when done calibrating. Apparently it is rather sensitive and should not be plugged in unless calibrating.


----------



## sunshinefc3s

MetricMuscle said:


> I wouldn't want to extend the length of the cable any if I didn't have to. I was just thinking to get a male and female jack, cut the mic headphone cable where I can plug it in easily near my center console and install the two jacks. Leave the cable plugged into the MS-8 but unplug the headphones from the new jack. Easy Peasy.
> 
> I've seen where folks have discussed damaging the mic headphone due to not unplugging it when done calibrating. Apparently it is rather sensitive and should not be plugged in unless calibrating.


I think you have all that backwards.


----------



## t3sn4f2

MetricMuscle said:


> Is it permissible or has anyone attempted to wire in a quick disconnect plug like the factory 3.5mm jack for the microphone headset?
> If your MS-8 is in the trunk, it isn't as easy to use the microphones for calibration as it would be if say installed under the passenger seat or in the hatch.
> My install is in the trunk and there is a solid wall of steel between back seat and trunk and not easy to install any temporary wiring.
> If I do install the mic wire permanently I may just have to leave the mic in the car and unplug it at the unit when done calibrating. I'd rather remove them.





sunshinefc3s said:


> Yes, but the issue is...does the MS-8's input plug sense that the headphone is plugged in, and does that cause the feedback issue? We don't know the answer, so to be safe, folks that have an extension, still unplug it at the unit just to be safe.





MetricMuscle said:


> I wouldn't want to extend the length of the cable any if I didn't have to. I was just thinking to get a male and female jack, cut the mic headphone cable where I can plug it in easily near my center console and install the two jacks. Leave the cable plugged into the MS-8 but unplug the headphones from the new jack. Easy Peasy.
> 
> I've seen where folks have discussed damaging the mic headphone due to not unplugging it when done calibrating. Apparently it is rather sensitive and should not be plugged in unless calibrating.




http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1589189-post7888.html



Neil_J said:


> You guys do know that the ms8's mic jack has a normally-closed contact that opens when the mic plug is physically plugged in, and the ms8 is supposed to use this to sense when the mic is connected, right? If this circuit works as it should, if you use an extension cable, the ms-8 will still sense the mic as being connected. You'd have to solder in a relay or something to defeat this. My pure speculation (take it with a grain of salt) is that the three-pole analog switch IC in the ms8 switches to from channels 4,8 (from memory) to the mic when the mic jack switch/sensor detects that the mic jack is physically plugged in, and leaving an extension cord plugged in would be a bad thing.



^Pretty smart dude right there. I'd heed, headed, take headed off (Office reference ) his warning.


----------



## Elgrosso

MetricMuscle said:


> Is it permissible or has anyone attempted to wire in a quick disconnect plug like the factory 3.5mm jack for the microphone headset?


That's what I do since 2 years, a 2 meters extension that goes in the armrest, pretty convenient.
And I had no issue because of that.
The only one I had, unrelated, was an airplane noise that killed right woofer and tweeter, because of a very low battery.
I always turn off the ms8 & disconnect the mic after each calibration before I play anything (boring).
If I forget to turn off before disconnecting, I get a pop, but nothing dramatic.
This means I suppose that the cable extension is not recognized as a mic?


----------



## sunshinefc3s

Elgrosso said:


> That's what I do since 2 years, a 2 meters extension that goes in the armrest, pretty convenient.
> And I had no issue because of that.
> The only one I had, unrelated, was an airplane noise that killed right woofer and tweeter, because of a very low battery.
> I always turn off the ms8 & disconnect the mic after each calibration before I play anything (boring).
> If I forget to turn off before disconnecting, I get a pop, but nothing dramatic.
> This means I suppose that the cable extension is not recognized as a mic?


I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, considering what Andy and Neil J wrote about the jet engine noise and disconnecting the mic wire (post quoted above).


----------



## Elgrosso

sunshinefc3s said:


> I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, considering what Andy and Neil J wrote about the jet engine noise and disconnecting the mic wire (post quoted above).


Well I shouldn't have written my second line it's confusing.
The jet engine/airplane whatever noise I got had nothing to do with the mic in this case, it wasn't even in this car. Just a dead battery after few weeks unused.

About the extension, my conclusion is that it's been fine (2 years). But I always unplug the mic at the extension before playing anything.
If I forget to turn off before, maybe 1% of the time, I get the pop and that's it.


----------



## 14642

Jet engine noise is the result of leakage in the memory. Mostly it happens after repeated calibrations without clearing the memory by doing a "restore factory defaults". It has nothing to do with adding an extension cable.


----------



## sunshinefc3s

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Jet engine noise is the result of leakage in the memory. Mostly it happens after repeated calibrations without clearing the memory by doing a "restore factory defaults". It has nothing to do with adding an extension cable.


Thanks, Andy! Can you clarify one thing...if using an extension cable, does the cable need to be unplugged at the unit after calibration, or is it sufficient to unplug the mic/headphone at the female end of the extension cable?

Thanks.
-a


----------



## Lanson

I remember Andy saying (years ago) an extension was OK.


----------



## fantasy

Does anyone amp their rear speakers? I'm running with L7 enabled and I hardly hear anything from the rear. I know that I'm not supposed to be hearing much from them with L7 enabled, but is the volume supposed to be that low? I'm currently the running the rears off the ms8 amp.


----------



## t3sn4f2

fourthmeal said:


> I remember Andy saying (years ago) an extension was OK.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Guys,
> My mistake. The display doesn't say to unplug the mic. The manual and quick start guide do, though. In every instance (3) of jet engine noise, the mic was plugged in and the subwoofer sweep seemed to be WAY TOO LOUD. Our verification team is now on this and I expect they'll find the cause soon. We're also working on the bluetoth issue.
> 
> Regarding the microphones: They are WM61 clones (since Panasonic no longer supplies those mics). THe reason that those are so popular is because they are so closely matched without a bunch of additional work. The correction file does correct for an average of severalmic capsules, but it also includes correction for the shape and size of the headphone plastic. Using another binaural microphone won't improve the results because the calibration file is designed for our plastic parts. The only difference between the headphone style and an in-ear style would be at very high frequencies. To be absolutely correct, the target curve would then have to be modified to account for that difference.
> 
> Developing a binaural microphone, a correction filter for it and a target curve that takes all that into account and achieves a desired result is no small feat and has taken months of work in correlating listening tests, measurements with standard micropones and microphone arrays using a dummy head in the car and in a chamber. I'm not inclined to make that work public or to make modification easy, because we won't be able to assure good performance if we do.
> 
> In all of the emails and PM's Adam and I have received, there's one theme that is consistent--that the target curve is good for the vast majority of people and that the autotune, which is the most important feature, provides great results when a few rules are followed.
> 
> I can't reiterate often enough that if the sweeps are too loud, the results won't be good. The sub sweep should definitely NOT be loud--no rattling of the trunk or bass you can feel. Just a simple low-volume sweep. If you want more bass than about 9dB above the rest and you have the subwoofer level control maxed in MS-8, then adjust your sub gain AFTER you do acoustic calibration.
> 
> *And for God's sake, please unplug the mic when you're done. You can use an extension cable if you want to*.


Yup, but we never got an answer back on whether it was ok for the oe cable or extended one to remain plugged in on the MS-8 side. I asked before but don't think it was ever addressed. 



t3sn4f2 said:


> I remember NeilJ mentioning the MS-8 had some type of circuit that sensed when there was something connected in the mic jack. Or something to that effect. I know Andy mentioned i's ok to use the extension but I don't recall him ever clarifying if it was ok to leave that extension plugged in and open/unterminated on the other end. Assuming its installed correctly and not grounding out on the end of course.



Though looking at Andy's post above again it seems like it's still not a good idea.


----------



## Elgrosso

fantasy said:


> Does anyone amp their rear speakers? I'm running with L7 enabled and I hardly hear anything from the rear. I know that I'm not supposed to be hearing much from them with L7 enabled, but is the volume supposed to be that low? I'm currently the running the rears off the ms8 amp.


Yep, and I like it very much.
It was not easy to adjust their level, because it really depends of the track. So I mostly play with the remote, +/-1 clic front/rear already has a lot of effect.


----------



## fantasy

Elgrosso said:


> Yep, and I like it very much.
> It was not easy to adjust their level, because it really depends of the track. So I mostly play with the remote, +/-1 clic front/rear already has a lot of effect.


Did you noticed a big difference before and after amping the rears? Right now, with L7 enabled, the rears play so low that it's like I don't even have any back there.


----------



## Lanson

fantasy said:


> Did you noticed a big difference before and after amping the rears? Right now, with L7 enabled, the rears play so low that it's like I don't even have any back there.


Play something with tons of ambiance in the music, and you'll be able to hear them much better.

That's what they are for, rear ambiant fill. They play out of phase information.


----------



## Elgrosso

I used the amp at the beginning so... did you try playing with the menu to increase/decrease the effect? 

But as fourthmeal said it's based on the track content.
I don't remember exactly how (Andy explained this few times here), but some songs contains nice out of phase informations, that you can really hear at the same level than front I'd say (depends of speaker, placement etc of course).
On some others, I guess not recorded the same way, you'll just get the ambiance. Hard to hear distinctively, until you turn off L7 and then they miss.


----------



## MetricMuscle

I don't think you are really supposed to "hear" the rear speakers rather they are there to make the surround effect possible. 
In the past when I've had systems without DSP and ran "rear fill", it wasn't so I could really hear it rather so that it didn't sound empty behind me, fill the dead void behind me. If I could hear sound coming from behind me I would adjust the gain down.
I hope MS-8 power is sufficient for the rears. Remember, they only need to cover from 100Hz up and need a steep 24db crossover point. I'd look for 2ohm rear speakers before I added an additional amp.


----------



## bobby23

very helpful


----------



## jswhitfield

fourthmeal said:


> Play something with tons of ambiance in the music, and you'll be able to hear them much better.
> 
> That's what they are for, rear ambiant fill. They play out of phase information.


One of the tracks that I use to demonstrate L7 or Dolby Pro Logic II is Talking Heads - True Stories - Papa Legba. In the beginning, the effects circle the listening space in a counter clockwise manner.

Or I use a movie from an iPod such as Avengers.


----------



## jswhitfield

This might be a question that can be clarified by Andy Wehmeyer since he said that he tuned L7 in the MS-8 for a car.

On the topic of rear fill, I was reading Floyd Toole's book, "Sound Reproduction," and with 7.1, he mentions using side speakers that are between 70-90 degrees to the listener, where 0 degrees is straight in front of the listener (i.e. center). In other words to the side of the listener or slightly in front.

I don't really have the space in my dash or kick panels for "fronts". I have my fronts in the doors and sail panels as Andy recommends. However, I was wondering if one could make the soundstage sound further out of in front of the listener if one put LCR in the dash and/or kick panels. Perhaps using a car with a deep dash like a minivan or Honda Fit. The goal would be to get left and right closer to 30-45 degrees from center. Then, if you put sides in the front doors, they might be between 70-90 degrees to the listener depending on the car. Lastly, you could put rear speakers in the rear doors, rear pillars, or rear deck (package shelf). Mr. Toole recommends rears be at about 135-155 degrees if I remember correctly.

Has anyone tried this? I wonder what it would sound like. It might be hard to get midbass into the LCR positions since they would likely be in space constrained locations, but then the car speakers would be closer to the positions in a home theater.

As far as I know, the MS-8 is the only processor that would allow this experimentation unless you used a carPC.


----------



## 1lowlife

Got my MS-8 installed today.
Well, everything is hooked up.
Started it up, got the JBL screen then the language screen.
I'm stuck there.
The remote will not select it.
Nor will the remote move up or down to choose a different language.
I changed the remote battery and reset the the ms-8. neither made a difference.
The unit is not recognizing or responding to the remote.
I'm not real happy about it.

Have you heard of this situation?
Any ideas on trying something besides what I've done?

Thanks...1LL


----------



## Lanson

1lowlife said:


> Got my MS-8 installed today.
> Well, everything is hooked up.
> Started it up, got the JBL screen then the language screen.
> I'm stuck there.
> The remote will not select it.
> Nor will the remote move up or down to choose a different language.
> I changed the remote battery and reset the the ms-8. neither made a difference.
> The unit is not recognizing or responding to the remote.
> I'm not real happy about it.
> 
> Have you heard of this situation?
> Any ideas on trying something besides what I've done?
> 
> Thanks...1LL


Make sure the display cable is completely connected. Push firm (but not too hard of course.)


----------



## Arthur71

If you have a phone with an active BT connection near by then you can expect interference.


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met behulp van Tapatalk


----------



## Arthur71

and sometimes when you loosen the screws on the back of the display just a little bit this will help too. Some mechanical stress on the control board...... 


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met behulp van Tapatalk


----------



## Elgrosso

jswhitfield said:


> One of the tracks that I use to demonstrate L7 or Dolby Pro Logic II is Talking Heads - True Stories - Papa Legba. In the beginning, the effects circle the listening space in a counter clockwise manner.
> 
> Or I use a movie from an iPod such as Avengers.


Thanks, will try!


----------



## 1lowlife

Arthur71 said:


> and sometimes when you loosen the screws on the back of the display just a little bit this will help too. Some mechanical stress on the control board......


That did it..
Remote worked after that.

Quick layout of my setup;
2014 Toyota Tundra, stock radio
Alpine PDXV-9 5 channel amp. 100w RMS /500w RMS
Front speakers - Focal PS 165 FX 2-WAY COMPONENT 
Rear speakers - Focal 165 AC Coaxial
Center dash speaker - Polk Audio DB351
Sub is a JL twin 10" Stealthbox

Front mids and tweeters run (4) separate channels, and sub to the amp
Rears and center off the MS-8 output
Channel 1 LF HI AMP 1
Channel 2 RF HI AMP 2
Channel 3 LF MID AMP 3
Channel 4 RF MID AMP 4
Channel 5 R side/rear MS-8
Channel 6 L side/rear MS-8
Channel 7 center MS-8
Channel 8 sub AMP 5 sub

Got it all going, setup and calibrated.
When doing the speaker placement check, every speaker produced sound in it's proper place.
I then did the alignment and all speakers produced sound in that test.
After that test, only the front left, mid, tweeter, and sub produced sound.
When I faded to right, nothing, rears, nothing, center nothing.
Did the alignment about 8 times, twice in all 4 seats with the same results.
Tested my RCAs to the amp, even thought the placement sound test was good.
Tested the RCA outputs of the MS-8 after alignment and only channels 1, 3, and 8 where outputting a signal.
And again, all 8 channels where putting out on the speaker placement test and on the alignment test with the headphones.
Even with the front left working right, I had to turn up my MS-8 volume almost all the way and the stock HU more than halfway to hear anything.
That was after 8 different alignments using 8 different MS-8 volume settings.

I'm sending it back to Sonic Electronix for another unit.
I've double checked my wiring, I had an LC6i in before the MS-8 and it worked fine, it just didn't sound good.
MS-8 reads everything is correct at the initial setup, signal, level, balance all OK. 
The speaker placement test working is what has me so confused.
The after the alignment, it just doesn't work.
Hopefully the replacement will work.
Sonic Electronix said I could keep the input and output wiring harnesses so I'll be able to easily install the new one.

If the next one doesn't work, looks like I'll see an Audiocontrol DQ-61 in my future.

Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Lanson

IMO, grab some barrier strips to do quick testing, and power everything off the MS-8. If you get sound out of every speaker properly, then go from there.

Wondering if you have an input wrong.

edit: You could test that by running an iPod or some sort of music player through the RCA-aux in, and see what happens.


----------



## crazhorse

Mine would do that come to find out I had the inputs from my head unit into the ms8 in inputs 1 & 5 instead of 1 & 2.


----------



## 1lowlife

More I think about it, it would have to be an input issue.
I know I have a connection to wire the iphone into the AUX somewhere around here.
I should have tried that.

I've already dropped the return off to UPS.
I shouldn't have to loosen display screws to make the damn thing work in the first place.
They need to send me a unit that works out of the box.
So I don't mind sending it back for a new one.

I'll pull the front seat tomorrow morning and make sure my outputs to the radio and wired correctly.
I figured when I got *OK OK OK* that the input was wired properly.
I know they are going into channels 1 and 2 on the MS-8.
I cut the stripped ends off and put heat shrink tubing on the end of each one I didn't use.
Same with the outputs I didn't use.

Thanks for the help..


----------



## percy072

I've had my MS-8 up and running for a week or so and was convinced I had just pissed away all my time and money on it  But things have come light years after spending hours tinkering and going through a bit of a "teething" process. 

Integrating the sub was killing me!! it always ended up way over boosted...then I discovered I had to set the sub gain way up to .5v and the mids down to 2v before running the acoustic calibration...and then dial the sub gain closer to 1/4 turn off of min, and the mids up to about the same post calibration resulting in a much much better blend (tweeters and rear door coax's powered from MS-8) Finally everything is starting to sound pretty damn good and relieved that all that time spent re-wiring and tearing apart my new car may have been worth it...

Couple issues I still seem to have...at higher volumes (not cranked) I get this random electronic sounding distortion sound from the mids?? Also the imaging is very good but still at times seems pulled right and I can have some localization that draws my attention right to the driver (can be either left or right tweeter or mid) however...the imaging has improved almost as though the MS-8 is learning over time?? Is that even possible?? Am I dealing with issue's that can be expected with tapping off the OEM source unit...or would anyone have any idea's for some way to deal with this??

Other than some lingering minor gripes...the MS-8 finally has shown me some impressive potential and I haven't even really touched the EQ yet.


----------



## percy072

^^ I think I hear crickets...har ^^

Well, I suppose I can assume the distortion noise is possibly a momentary wrinkle in the processing from the MS-8...I know the wiring is solid, and the components are brand new. 

The noise I'm hearing almost sounds like an exaggerated form of "autotune" that recording studio's use for vocals...as heard in Cher's "Do you believe in love" and can come from either the left or right midbass...


----------



## kaigoss69

percy072 said:


> ^^ I think I hear crickets...har ^^
> 
> Well, I suppose I can assume the distortion noise is possibly a momentary wrinkle in the processing from the MS-8...I know the wiring is solid, and the components are brand new.
> 
> The noise I'm hearing almost sounds like an exaggerated form of "autotune" that recording studio's use for vocals...as heard in Cher's "Do you believe in love" and can come from either the left or right midbass...


The only thing I can suggest is to clear the internal memory by doing a system reset through the menu (not the button on the unit) and then setting everything up again.


----------



## percy072

kaigoss69 said:


> The only thing I can suggest is to clear the internal memory by doing a system reset through the menu (not the button on the unit) and then setting everything up again.


Went and tried that but the distortion remained...so being as tenacious as I am I re-ran calibration a couple times and then started to realize that I should have been turning up the gain on my mids!! 

Playing a couple songs with certain tones that really made that noise obvious (Beck's "Heart is a Drum, and Chantel Kreviazuk's version of "Leaving on a jet plane") I kept adding power to the mids only until it stopped...lol 

Noob mistake but always good to gain another learning experience out of it...I always thought of distortion being caused by having the gains up to high, but my issue was caused by underpowering the mids. Live and learn...:blush:


----------



## moparman1

Hey guys. What are your thoughts on using the MS-8 to run an active three way front stage vs running a center channel. My issue is that i will have a really tough time integrating a center speaker. 2002 neon.
defrost vent is exactly in the way. Further back (closer to passengers) there's the instrument cluster hump in the way. I can fab something to make it work but as stated before, it won't be easy.


----------



## MetricMuscle

moparman1 said:


> Hey guys. What are your thoughts on using the MS-8 to run an active three way front stage vs running a center channel. My issue is that i will have a really tough time integrating a center speaker. 2002 neon.
> defrost vent is exactly in the way. Further back (closer to passengers) there's the instrument cluster hump in the way. I can fab something to make it work but as stated before, it won't be easy.


A center channel is more necessary for a 2-seat listening position.
If you are interested in tuning this for just the driver's seat listening position, a center is not necessary. A 2-seat tune will be a compromise and not sound as good for either seat as a tune for just one.

Andy typically suggests a 3-way front, rears and a sub. You will need to use just one channel per side from the MS-8 to run the mid and tweeter so they will both need to be on a 4-channel amp using it's crossover or a component set with a passive crossover.


----------



## moparman1

Thanks. I'll give that a shot. If it's not what I'm after i can just add a center later but that's pretty much what i was thinking would be the case. One seat setup would sound better than two seat. Just unsure about logic 7 and how it will be affected.


----------



## Lanson

you can toggle it on and off and compare for yourself, directly, once you've got the system up and running. In some installs I do that don't have a center, we've gone without L7 turned on. And in others like my own Focus, I leave it on. It works better, the better the music source is I find. For folks just listening to regular radio and stuff, I leave it off. 

On center-equipped and customized cars like my Flex, it stays on full time of course.


----------



## talan7

Ok, I've finally got my calibration done right and have no distortion, but wham my MS8 was installed it was done using hi-level inputs. I've since found an installer more experience with the MS8 who upon taking a quick look at my setup explained exactly what should be done. 

A few issues to address; 
1 redo install with lo-level inputs
2 Deaden all doors, rear deck, possibly floor. (The main reason I wasn't getting any bass up front)
3 Go active up front. For this I decided to change my components from JBL gto609s (they sound ok) to something with better mid bass. I've decided to go with JBL P660 woofers and Infinity kappa 10.11t tweeters (Active). He says going active will be key for optimum sound. I question. Would the front be too loud? We'll see. he also recommended no center. Now currently my center is the only stock speaker I still have and sounds like crap so I recalibrated without using center or rear doors, even though they are installed, because they were powered of the MS8 instead of an amp. 

I don't use logic 7 now but does logic 7 sound better with or without a dedicated center channel? I'm thinking of installing the center channel since I bought it but not using it. Just in case in the future I get a dvd and want surround sound.

So to recap my new setup will be; 
Channels 1-2, Kappa 10.11t tweeters
Channels 3-4, JBL P660 woofers
Channels 5-6, JBL GTO939 6 x 9 on rear deck
Channel 7, even if I don't use it; JBL GTO 329 3.5 inch
Channel 8, JL 10 inch

The components will run off my JBL ms1004 amp and my sub will be run off my JBL MSA5001 amp. My rear deck and center will run off the MS8. My rear doors will be disconnected.


----------



## Lanson

talan7 said:


> Ok, I've finally got my calibration done right and have no distortion, but wham my MS8 was installed it was done using hi-level inputs. I've since found an installer more experience with the MS8 who upon taking a quick look at my setup explained exactly what should be done.
> 
> A few issues to address;
> 1 redo install with lo-level inputs
> 2 Deaden all doors, rear deck, possibly floor. (The main reason I wasn't getting any bass up front)
> 3 Go active up front. For this I decided to change my components from JBL gto609s (they sound ok) to something with better mid bass. I've decided to go with JBL P660 woofers and Infinity kappa 10.11t tweeters (Active). He says going active will be key for optimum sound. I question. Would the front be too loud? We'll see. he also recommended no center. Now currently my center is the only stock speaker I still have and sounds like crap so I recalibrated without using center or rear doors, even though they are installed, because they were powered of the MS8 instead of an amp.
> 
> I don't use logic 7 now but does logic 7 sound better with or without a dedicated center channel? I'm thinking of installing the center channel since I bought it but not using it. Just in case in the future I get a dvd and want surround sound.
> 
> So to recap my new setup will be;
> Channels 1-2, Kappa 10.11t tweeters
> Channels 3-4, JBL P660 woofers
> Channels 5-6, JBL GTO939 6 x 9 on rear deck
> Channel 7, even if I don't use it; JBL GTO 329 3.5 inch
> Channel 8, JL 10 inch
> 
> The components will run off my JBL ms1004 amp and my sub will be run off my JBL MSA5001 amp. My rear deck and center will run off the MS8. My rear doors will be disconnected.



If your car has center, I highly, highly recommend finding a way to make center work with the MS-8. You want a speaker that can play as close to the frequency response of the front speakers as possible. Obviously, space can be an issue, but if you can get a powerful small driver in there, or a larger driver somehow, that would be potentially very good. I went from a 3.5" stock driver (whizzer cone) to a 3.5" JBL GTO coaxial, to a 5" Dayton RS100-4 and an ND20FB tweeter with a passive crossover I made. Each step made a big difference. 

The LGK 1.0 is immediately a speaker I would look at if you need something small but capable of digging deep. Also maybe the Fountek 88/89.


----------



## talan7

fourthmeal said:


> If your car has center, I highly, highly recommend finding a way to make center work with the MS-8. You want a speaker that can play as close to the frequency response of the front speakers as possible. Obviously, space can be an issue, but if you can get a powerful small driver in there, or a larger driver somehow, that would be potentially very good. I went from a 3.5" stock driver (whizzer cone) to a 3.5" JBL GTO coaxial, to a 5" Dayton RS100-4 and an ND20FB tweeter with a passive crossover I made. Each step made a big difference.
> 
> The LGK 1.0 is immediately a speaker I would look at if you need something small but capable of digging deep. Also maybe the Fountek 88/89.


My installer said the ms8 takes from the left/right to make center and that it would sound better without it. I'm going to have him install my new center to channel 7 but not assign it an input. I'll play with that on my own.


----------



## dimmsson

guys, if i want to set up a "processing mute" firmware update - do i need a special cable to connect MS-8 to PC?


----------



## dimmsson

i have bmw f10 - very basic radio BMW Business and it is connected to MS-8 (speakers cabes are connected to MS-8 as input signal). do i need to decode BMW radio into HI-FI to have a better sound, or there will be no difference?


----------



## Lanson

talan7 said:


> My installer said the ms8 takes from the left/right to make center and that it would sound better without it. I'm going to have him install my new center to channel 7 but not assign it an input. I'll play with that on my own.


I have to say, it will not sound better without it UNLESS that center is too tiny to make a difference.

And while I don't know your installer, I can tell you from installing a bunch of these that the center makes a big difference. Think of center as the other way around. IF the center is not there, the L/R take over but if the center IS there, it gets the information it is supposed to, to recreate the L7 soundfield. Same with rear speakers. They don't need to be particularly great speakers, but they are super-helpful to have to create the soundfield. 

The center also needs to play as low as reasonable, the lower the better. That's because the information the center can't play, goes to the L/R. The more the center can play, the more realistic the two-seat staging.

Center isn't nearly as important if you're one-seating it.


----------



## t3sn4f2

^x2. 

The ms-8 center output takes the common signal to both the left and right, attenuates it and send it to that one channel. That's the main part of the music for the most part.

Now imagine which is better way to recreate that center stage. Having a left and a right, woofer and tweeter (or more in many cases), all at acoustically unique areas of the cabin shaping the sound each in their own way. All at different axis perspectives from the listener. All at different distances from the listener. And all in areas with near boundaries to the source.

Or, having one point source (coax or fullrange) playing up into the dash reflecting into the listening spot with no adjacent reflective surfaces around.


----------



## talan7

fourthmeal said:


> I have to say, it will not sound better without it UNLESS that center is too tiny to make a difference.
> 
> And while I don't know your installer, I can tell you from installing a bunch of these that the center makes a big difference. Think of center as the other way around. IF the center is not there, the L/R take over but if the center IS there, it gets the information it is supposed to, to recreate the L7 soundfield. Same with rear speakers. They don't need to be particularly great speakers, but they are super-helpful to have to create the soundfield.
> 
> The center also needs to play as low as reasonable, the lower the better. That's because the information the center can't play, goes to the L/R. The more the center can play, the more realistic the two-seat staging.
> 
> Center isn't nearly as important if you're one-seating it.


My installer was stating that stereo sounds better than logic7. His recommendation is to go active, disconnect my center, and by doing this, I will have better sound. I have my stock center installed and connected. it sounded like crap (speaker is crappy and blown). I want to install my new JBL GTO 3.5 channel for the center but is this recommended now if I go active up front. My new front components are 2 ohm now so I assume they will be louder. Also, with deadening everything that would help up front as well. I was thinking of just going passive, installing the center, and keeping my rear doors in the mix along with my rear deck. He demo'd his truck and it was too loud up front. I want the music to just be there, not blasting in my face.


----------



## talan7

I must say that I liked the sound better with logic7 off, even when my center (albeit stock) was on. With it not assigned I still like logic7 off even when MS8 does it with two channels. I haven't been too happy with logic 7. It seems to take away too much sound, especially mid bass.


----------



## MetricMuscle

talan7 said:


> My* installer* was stating that stereo sounds better than logic7. His recommendation is to go active, disconnect my center, and by doing this, I will have better sound. I have my stock center installed and connected. it sounded like crap (speaker is crappy and blown). I want to install my new JBL GTO 3.5 channel for the center but is this recommended now if I go active up front. My new front components are 2 ohm now so I assume they will be louder. Also, with deadening everything that would help up front as well. I was thinking of just going passive, installing the center, and keeping my rear doors in the mix along with my rear deck. He demo'd his truck and it was too loud up front. I want the music to just be there, not blasting in my face.


What is this Installer thing you keep referring to?
Is this like a consultant?
Counselor?
What is it's purpose exactly?
I'm glad I don't have one, sounds confusing.



talan7 said:


> I must say that I liked the sound better with logic7 off, even when my center (albeit stock) was on. With it not assigned I still like logic7 off even when MS8 does it with two channels. I haven't been too happy with logic 7. It seems to take away too much sound, especially mid bass.


Might wanna have that Installer device thing come yonder this way and do some readin' up on MS-8, quirks and quandaries. That or.......DIY. 

Did you calibrate it for one seat or two?
I'm pretty sure MS-8 sends no signal to the center channel unless it is calibrated for two seats and "two seats" is selected.


----------



## talan7

MetricMuscle said:


> What is this Installer thing you keep referring to?
> Is this like a consultant?
> Counselor?
> What is it's purpose exactly?
> I'm glad I don't have one, sounds confusing.
> 
> Might wanna have that Installer device thing come yonder this way and do some readin' up on MS-8, quirks and quandaries. That or.......DIY.
> 
> Did you calibrate it for one seat or two?
> I'm pretty sure MS-8 sends no signal to the center channel unless it is calibrated for two seats and "two seats" is selected.


By installer I mean the stereo shop who's doing my install, and no it was never calibrated for 2 seats. I didn't know 2 seats had to be selected.

I'm going to have my center installed and judge for myself. My installer says he's done many MS8 installs. I hope he knows how to tune for center.

Now, active or passive?


----------



## Lanson

The above information is incorrect.

The center is used whenever logic 7 is turned on. The seat positioning does nothing but affect time alignment. Example, using the "front" seat option after measuring both driver and passenger, creates a compromise with limited time alignment (Andy W. covered this before.) I use this compromise setting in my Flex.

In my ST, because it doesn't have a center, I have my alignment set for "driver".


edit:

ACTIVE as much as you can. On my Flex which is active-passive, I only did so because I ran out of channels to actively process. But my passives are mine, I made them, and I made them very simple and with respect to a high cross point, to minimize distortion and to simplify how the crossover is made. Also I made sure to keep my passively-connected speakers extremely close together, so time alignment is not affected on those.


----------



## Blackbeard

What is the optimal placement and aiming of the center?

It appears that most of the centers are on the top of the dash firing up into the windshield.

In my F350, top of the dash would take considerable hacking that I just can't do but there is a small open spot below the HU and AC vent that is normally used for 4WD but is blanked out in my 2WD.

How much would a center that facing straight backward and not quite center (about 1 1/2 to the left of center) compromise the intended musicality of a center.?


----------



## slpery

Did anyone notice any difference running speaker wire inputs compared to RCA's?

I just upgraded my HU, and was wondering if its worth running a set of RCA's.


----------



## neozeric

Replacing the factory amp with an ms-8 then a 4 channel amp and mono amp for sub. Running center and rears off the ms8. I have a set of PPI PC 65C3 up front. Going to run the woofer off the 4 channel amp and the mid and tweeter off the 4 channel amp. Agree? It is only a 90w x 4. Is that ok? Or run the mid/tweet off the ms8 and bridge the amp to give the woofer 175 watts?


----------



## sunshinefc3s

Active? I count too many channels. Ms8 can only do 8.


----------



## thehatedguy

I would put the component set on the 4 channel and use a passive XO between the mids and tweeters.


----------



## neozeric

They are threey way. So i was thinking of using the passive xover for the tweet and mid for one channel and another channel for the woofers. Just dont know how to use the 4ch amp best


----------



## thehatedguy

Mid/tweeter with a passive XO on 2 channels and the midbasses on the other 2 channels.


----------



## thehatedguy

Set your fronts to 2 way, center as 1 way, rears as one way, and sub as 1 way...and you'll have 8 channels.


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> I would put the component set on the 4 channel and use a passive XO between the mids and tweeters.


Or do like I planned... Use a nice 2 channels on MB and a 4 channel Zapco DC (with DSP) for the MID & TW  

Kelvin


----------



## fredi

nice thread.ms has 8 inputs, digital I also agree there is no benefit


----------



## neozeric

thanks guys! i only have room for 1 amp so....


----------



## thehatedguy

I am using DC Reference amps too. If I hit the lottery, I would like to find a nice used DC Reference 6 channel so I can use it for the mid/tweeters so I don't have to build passive XOs for them.

I wish I could find some nice small class D amps that had similar processing in them...but I don't think such animals exist outside of the Brax 4 channel.



subwoofery said:


> Or do like I planned... Use a nice 2 channels on MB and a 4 channel Zapco DC (with DSP) for the MID & TW
> 
> Kelvin


----------



## t3sn4f2

thehatedguy said:


> I am using DC Reference amps too. If I hit the lottery, I would like to find a nice used DC Reference 6 channel so I can use it for the mid/tweeters so I don't have to build passive XOs for them.
> 
> I wish I could find some nice small class D amps that had similar processing in them...but I don't think such animals exist outside of the Brax 4 channel.


Just saw these the other day.

http://mosconi-america.com/portfolio/d21004dsp/
D2 80.6 DSP – Mosconi America


----------



## thehatedguy

I wonder how much they cost?

Certainly interesting.

Anymore out there?


----------



## t3sn4f2

thehatedguy said:


> I wonder how much they cost?
> 
> Certainly interesting.
> 
> Anymore out there?


I saw this one a while back. It looks more geared toward OEM integration, but if the quality is anything like their drivers it should be pretty good. No clue on the price though.

DSP 8 CAN - Amplifiers - Car-HiFi - Products - Eton GmbH


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> I am using DC Reference amps too. If I hit the lottery, I would like to find a nice used DC Reference 6 channel so I can use it for the mid/tweeters so I don't have to build passive XOs for them.
> 
> I wish I could find some nice small class D amps that had similar processing in them...but I don't think such animals exist outside of the Brax 4 channel.


If I had money for car audio, I'd get a pair of Mosconi D2 DSP amps. 

Kelvin


----------



## 1lowlife

1lowlife said:


> More I think about it, it would have to be an input issue.
> I know I have a connection to wire the iphone into the AUX somewhere around here.
> I should have tried that.
> 
> I've already dropped the return off to UPS.
> I shouldn't have to loosen display screws to make the damn thing work in the first place.
> They need to send me a unit that works out of the box.
> So I don't mind sending it back for a new one.
> 
> I'll pull the front seat tomorrow morning and make sure my outputs to the radio and wired correctly.
> I figured when I got *OK OK OK* that the input was wired properly.
> I know they are going into channels 1 and 2 on the MS-8.
> I cut the stripped ends off and put heat shrink tubing on the end of each one I didn't use.
> Same with the outputs I didn't use.
> 
> Thanks for the help..


The problem was NOT on my end.
I sent the unit back, they tested it, and sent me a new one.
Put the new one in yesterday and it works fine..

I just need to start with the tweaking...


----------



## 14642

fourthmeal said:


> The above information is incorrect.
> 
> The center is used whenever logic 7 is turned on. The seat positioning does nothing but affect time alignment. Example, using the "front" seat option after measuring both driver and passenger, creates a compromise with limited time alignment (Andy W. covered this before.) I use this compromise setting in my Flex.
> 
> In my ST, because it doesn't have a center, I have my alignment set for "driver".
> 
> 
> edit:
> 
> ACTIVE as much as you can. On my Flex which is active-passive, I only did so because I ran out of channels to actively process. But my passives are mine, I made them, and I made them very simple and with respect to a high cross point, to minimize distortion and to simplify how the crossover is made. Also I made sure to keep my passively-connected speakers extremely close together, so time alignment is not affected on those.


Almost. Choosing "Front" does change the time alignment, but it also changes the EQ.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Finally installed mine and it's phenomenal. I really don't have anything but praise for it as it made my 2013 Jetta factory speakers sound very expensive. As I swap out the factory hardware I'll be on the lookout for any other changes. I'll do add a little dampening material to the doors but it's going to be a standard two way using phd fb6.1 pro mids and tweets plus a sub. 

So far, ms-8 did exactly what Andy seemed to have in mind and did it well. 
I have not finalized install, it's mostly roughed in, and don't know if I'll keep the display or not. I mounted under the driver seat. Remote placement may change as well.


----------



## MetricMuscle

So, what are any of you using for side or rear speakers and how much power are you sending them?

I'd love to just use MS-8 power for some 4" or 5.25" coaxials.


----------



## percy072

I800C0LLECT said:


> it's going to be a standard two way using phd fb6.1 pro mids and tweets plus a sub.


I found the MS-8 did a great job integrating the OEM rear coaxials...keeping logic 7 on they are barely noticable but do provide a little more "fullness" without being distracting. Leaving them powered off the MS-8...but have decided to use a 5 channel amp for the sub and front components to help level match the mids with the tweeters...



I800C0LLECT said:


> it's mostly roughed in, and don't know if I'll keep the display or not. I mounted under the driver seat. Remote placement may change as well.


Wish that thing was wireless. I routed the cable into the glove box so it's out of sight...did not want to screw anything to the dash etc.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

I plan on keeping with the ms series and powering the mids with two channels from the ms-1004. The last two channels bridged to the sub. The ms-8 will power tweeters and factory rear speakers.

I can see the allure of a wireless display but double sided 3M tape can hold pretty well without any drilling. Otherwise I prefer cables over wireless. Hopefully I'll be careful and won't damage the display cable like others have. That might be a good reason to pack it away too.


----------



## talan7

what about putting the center somewhere else? like centered in the ceiling or rear deck. Does it have to be in the front dash?


----------



## FordEscape

*HU to MS-8 high-level interconnect wire?*

Cleaning-up my install, relocating the MS-8 and external amp from under the passenger seat to the tire-well at the back of my small SUV so I get to re-wire the speaker-level connections between my OEM HU and the MS-8 high-level inputs (5 channels out of HU).

What's the appropriate AWG for that speaker level HU to MS-8 interconnect with 10.5 ft of one-way length? FWIW the OEM speaker wires are 18AWG, shorter runs.

Is this a place where I could use Canare L-4E6S with one pair for (+) and one pair for (-) for each channel? I buy that cable cheap locally and it would be easy to route 5 of those laid side-by-side along my route. If yes, should the shield be grounded at the HU end, MS-8 end, both ends or neither end (this is NOT an RCA jack interconnect, it is HU speaker wire output to MS-8 high-level multi-pin plug wire input) ?

Canare Corp.: Star Quad Microphone Cables: Star Quad Microphone Cable(L-4E6S / L-4E5C)

TIA


----------



## 1lowlife

I have an issue with volume..
My HU goes up to 63.
After setup and calibration with the MS-8 set on anywhere from 30 to 45 during calibration.
I have to turn the the MS-8 all the up, I have to get to 20 on HU to hear it at all while driving.
Have to turn it to 30 to 40 just for a normal listening level.
I can turn it all the way up to 63 with no distortion and feel I need MUCH more volume.
Had an AC LC6i before the MS-8 and the HU would crank it with the same setup.

Now for the setup:
2014 Toyota Tundra, Entune stock radio
Alpine PDXV-9 5 channel amp. 100w RMS /500w RMS
Front speakers - Focal PS 165 FX 2-WAY COMPONENT 
Rear speakers - Focal 165 AC Coaxial
Center dash speaker - Polk Audio DB351
Sub is a JL twin 10" Stealthbox

Amp gains for tweets and mids set at nominal (2v) sub set about 1/4 (1v).

Front mids and tweeters run (4) separate channels, and sub to the amp
Rears and center off the MS-8 output
Channel 1 LF HI AMP 1
Channel 2 RF HI AMP 2
Channel 3 LF MID AMP 3
Channel 4 RF MID AMP 4
Channel 5 R side/rear MS-8
Channel 6 L side/rear MS-8
Channel 7 center MS-8
Channel 8 sub AMP 5 sub

I feel I should have more volume at a lower setting on the HU.
I had more with the LC6i as well when it was just stock..

Any input would be appreciated....1LL


----------



## t3sn4f2

1lowlife said:


> I have an issue with volume..
> My HU goes up to 63.
> After setup and calibration with the MS-8 set on anywhere from 30 to 45 during calibration.
> I have to turn the the MS-8 all the up, I have to get to 20 on HU to hear it at all while driving.
> Have to turn it to 30 to 40 just for a normal listening level.
> I can turn it all the way up to 63 with no distortion and feel I need MUCH more volume.
> Had an AC LC6i before the MS-8 and the HU would crank it with the same setup.
> 
> Now for the setup:
> 2014 Toyota Tundra, Entune stock radio
> Alpine PDXV-9 5 channel amp. 100w RMS /500w RMS
> Front speakers - Focal PS 165 FX 2-WAY COMPONENT
> Rear speakers - Focal 165 AC Coaxial
> Center dash speaker - Polk Audio DB351
> Sub is a JL twin 10" Stealthbox
> 
> Amp gains for tweets and mids set at nominal (2v) sub set about 1/4 (1v).
> 
> Front mids and tweeters run (4) separate channels, and sub to the amp
> Rears and center off the MS-8 output
> Channel 1 LF HI AMP 1
> Channel 2 RF HI AMP 2
> Channel 3 LF MID AMP 3
> Channel 4 RF MID AMP 4
> Channel 5 R side/rear MS-8
> Channel 6 L side/rear MS-8
> Channel 7 center MS-8
> Channel 8 sub AMP 5 sub
> 
> I feel I should have more volume at a lower setting on the HU.
> I had more with the LC6i as well when it was just stock..
> 
> Any input would be appreciated....1LL


Just some general questions. 

-Are the fader, balance, EQ, etc. on your head unit set to center and 0? 

-What outputs are you using to feed the MS-8?

-Is there an OE center channel? Can it's processing (ie "surround") be turned off from the head unit?


----------



## 1lowlife

t3sn4f2 said:


> Just some general questions.
> 
> -Are the fader, balance, EQ, etc. on your head unit set to center and 0?
> 
> -What outputs are you using to feed the MS-8?
> 
> -Is there an OE center channel? Can it's processing (ie "surround") be turned off from the head unit?




Yes, fader and balance on the HU are centered and EQ and tone settings are 0.

Using the high level front speaker outputs of the stock radio as per the MS-8 instructions.

There was an OE center channel, and is a dual 8 ohm speaker.
But I replaced it with a Polk Audio DB351 and ran a line for it to the MS-8.

The stock center cannot be adjust from the HU.
But I replaced it anyway, and the signal now comes from the MS-8.

This stock radio has an odd setup;
Wasn't rally a 'surround" setup, more of a front fill IMH
There are 3 speakers in the dash, 2 side and center.
The center being a single dual 8 ohm speaker.



These 3 run directly off the HU.
Then there is a separate front and rear signal that goes to a small factory amp under the front passengers seat that runs the front and rears doors, separately.
All my connections are tapped into where the factory amp was.

I pulled the side dash speakers, because I have components in the front with the tweeters in the door sails.

With the amp same setup with the LC6i, the stock HU volume worked fairly normal.
Although I was then running the front and rears doors off the 5 channel amp.
I'm now running the fronts, tweeters and mids, separately off the amp and the rear doors and center off the MS-8. 

I'm wondering since the amp is 100w RMS per channel (500w RMS for the sub) and the MS-8 is 20w REMS per channel, that the MS-8 is keeping the output level low as to not over power the rears and center.
That make sense?

I have a few guys on my Tundra forum with the MS-8, same vehicle (year model), similar Alpine amps, different speakers.
One says he can barely turn his HU up past 30 without it being too loud.
I'm using his MS-8 settings as a guide to tune mine.

I'll tinker with more this weekend.
See if there is a difference between XM, FM, CD, USB.
I'll try a CD, and put a few tunes on a USB.
Maybe try the AUX input and see if I have the same results..
Not sure if I have a cable to go from headphone (from the iPhone) to RCAs around here..
I bet I do somewhere..

Just a quick thought that popped into my head.
I think this radio has a noise sensing volume adjustment.
You know, turns up volume as interior road noise increases.
I need to make sure it is turned off..


----------



## subwoofery

MS-8 volume AFTER calibration? 

Kelvin


----------



## 1lowlife

subwoofery said:


> MS-8 volume AFTER calibration?
> 
> Kelvin


00..
All the way..


----------



## t3sn4f2

1lowlife said:


> Yes, fader and balance on the HU are centered and EQ and tone settings are 0.
> 
> Using the high level front speaker outputs of the stock radio as per the MS-8 instructions.
> 
> There was an OE center channel, and is a dual 8 ohm speaker.
> But I replaced it with a Polk Audio DB351 and ran a line for it to the MS-8.
> 
> The stock center cannot be adjust from the HU.
> But I replaced it anyway, and the signal now comes from the MS-8.
> 
> This stock radio has an odd setup;
> Wasn't rally a 'surround" setup, more of a front fill IMH
> There are 3 speakers in the dash, 2 side and center.
> The center being a single dual 8 ohm speaker.
> 
> 
> 
> These 3 run directly off the HU.
> Then there is a separate front and rear signal that goes to a small factory amp under the front passengers seat that runs the front and rears doors, separately.
> All my connections are tapped into where the factory amp was.
> 
> I pulled the side dash speakers, because I have components in the front with the tweeters in the door sails.
> 
> With the amp same setup with the LC6i, the stock HU volume worked fairly normal.
> Although I was then running the front and rears doors off the 5 channel amp.
> I'm now running the fronts, tweeters and mids, separately off the amp and the rear doors and center off the MS-8.
> 
> I'm wondering since the amp is 100w RMS per channel (500w RMS for the sub) and the MS-8 is 20w REMS per channel, that the MS-8 is keeping the output level low as to not over power the rears and center.
> That make sense?
> 
> I have a few guys on my Tundra forum with the MS-8, same vehicle (year model), similar Alpine amps, different speakers.
> One says he can barely turn his HU up past 30 without it being too loud.
> I'm using his MS-8 settings as a guide to tune mine.
> 
> I'll tinker with more this weekend.
> See if there is a difference between XM, FM, CD, USB.
> I'll try a CD, and put a few tunes on a USB.
> Maybe try the AUX input and see if I have the same results..
> Not sure if I have a cable to go from headphone (from the iPhone) to RCAs around here..
> I bet I do somewhere..
> 
> Just a quick thought that popped into my head.
> I think this radio has a noise sensing volume adjustment.
> You know, turns up volume as interior road noise increases.
> I need to make sure it is turned off..


Definitely try the aux input next. And make sure its the aux input and not the main rca ins. For one you wont have to unplug the skeaker level in plug, but more importantly the aux input has a built in line driver to make up for the sub standard iphone ouput voltage. Itll leave you with a relatively equal loudness output as the speaker level input source


----------



## Arthur71

I have used ms8 in a Toyota Avensis (europe only car) with similar speaker amp layout as you described. The power (read voltage swing) to the dash speakers is fairly small since they don't play low frequencies. Therefore you can connect them to the line input of the ms8 instead. The line input is the same, differential like, input as the high level ones, it only requires a lower signal swing. I did it like this and gave me good results. 


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met behulp van Tapatalk


----------



## Lanson

*Re: HU to MS-8 high-level interconnect wire?*

I would say 18-20 gauge is fine, there's not much power to worry about on these wires. I usually use Monoprice 16 gauge four conductor sheathed, usually works great for the purpose.

No need to shield, this is high-level.







FordEscape said:


> Cleaning-up my install, relocating the MS-8 and external amp from under the passenger seat to the tire-well at the back of my small SUV so I get to re-wire the speaker-level connections between my OEM HU and the MS-8 high-level inputs (5 channels out of HU).
> 
> What's the appropriate AWG for that speaker level HU to MS-8 interconnect with 10.5 ft of one-way length? FWIW the OEM speaker wires are 18AWG, shorter runs.
> 
> Is this a place where I could use Canare L-4E6S with one pair for (+) and one pair for (-) for each channel? I buy that cable cheap locally and it would be easy to route 5 of those laid side-by-side along my route. If yes, should the shield be grounded at the HU end, MS-8 end, both ends or neither end (this is NOT an RCA jack interconnect, it is HU speaker wire output to MS-8 high-level multi-pin plug wire input) ?
> 
> Canare Corp.: Star Quad Microphone Cables: Star Quad Microphone Cable(L-4E6S / L-4E5C)
> 
> TIA


----------



## jcw74801

New MS-8 install with a bit of a problem. Installed in a 2015 Subaru Forester factory 6-speaker (non-Harmon) system. Also installed a sub and amp downstream. Easy install and sounds great even with the factory speakers. 

Only there's a catch: after turning the ignition off and back on I have no output unless I run through input setup and acoustic calibration. I have to setup and calibrate every time I start the car. Looks like the flash memory has Alzheimer's.

I've been contacting JBL support all week. Still waiting for someone from the MS-8 team to contact me so I can get this unit replaced if needed. I hope they're just real busy and I haven't been lost in the shuffle.

Looking forward to getting this install finalized and upgrading the factory drivers.

Anyone else experienced this particular problem?


----------



## t3sn4f2

jcw74801 said:


> New MS-8 install with a bit of a problem. Installed in a 2015 Subaru Forester factory 6-speaker (non-Harmon) system. Also installed a sub and amp downstream. Easy install and sounds great even with the factory speakers.
> 
> Only there's a catch: after turning the ignition off and back on I have no output unless I run through input setup and acoustic calibration. I have to setup and calibrate every time I start the car. Looks like the flash memory has Alzheimer's.
> 
> I've been contacting JBL support all week. Still waiting for someone from the MS-8 team to contact me so I can get this unit replaced if needed. I hope they're just real busy and I haven't been lost in the shuffle.
> 
> Looking forward to getting this install finalized and upgrading the factory drivers.
> 
> Anyone else experienced this particular problem?


With the MS-8, probably not. With support's support, likely.


----------



## MDubYa

I hate to say it, but I've called support 6 times in the last two days... Only because I would hear something like phone being hit back and forth on a ping pong table and then they hung up. This happened 4x's in a row. I was impressed...


----------



## jcw74801

Lol, I should have said has anyone seen this MS8 problem before. Support, well that's a box of chocolates.. I thought JBL has a good support reputation. I'll try again tomorrow. I bet Amazon would take it back..


----------



## percy072

1lowlife said:


> I have an issue with volume..
> My HU goes up to 63.
> After setup and calibration with the MS-8 set on anywhere from 30 to 45 during calibration.
> I have to turn the the MS-8 all the up, I have to get to 20 on HU to hear it at all while driving.
> Have to turn it to 30 to 40 just for a normal listening level.
> I can turn it all the way up to 63 with no distortion and feel I need MUCH more volume.
> Had an AC LC6i before the MS-8 and the HU would crank it with the same setup.


It took me quite a while via trial and error and frustration to find the right combination of settings pre-calibration and post calibration to end up with a good final result.

Where are you setting your gains before calibration? 

In my case I set gains @ 2v (11 O'clock) for my front's (tweeters and rear doors off MS-8) and sub gain @ .1v (1 O'clock) for calibration...then I dialed my sub gain down to 3v (9 O'clock) and left my front as is. I also found it worked best to slowly turn the volume up just enough to get OK OK OK...no further, set to -35 on the display, then up to -06db after set up and things get plenty loud (for me) 

If your sub gain was set to a lower gain level (closer to 9 O'clock) during callibration, the MS-8 may have level matched the rest of your system if the sub was "quieter" during the tone sweep...

It could take multiple calibrations experimenting with different settings both before and after the set up process before things start dialing in. What worked for me may not in your case...


----------



## 1lowlife

percy072 said:


> It took me quite a while via trial and error and frustration to find the right combination of settings pre-calibration and post calibration to end up with a good final result.
> 
> Where are you setting your gains before calibration?
> 
> In my case I set gains @ 2v (11 O'clock) for my front's (tweeters and rear doors off MS-8) and sub gain @ .1v (1 O'clock) for calibration...then I dialed my sub gain down to 3v (9 O'clock) and left my front as is. I also found it worked best to slowly turn the volume up just enough to get OK OK OK...no further, set to -35 on the display, then up to -06db after set up and things get plenty loud (for me)
> 
> If your sub gain was set to a lower gain level (closer to 9 O'clock) during callibration, the MS-8 may have level matched the rest of your system if the sub was "quieter" during the tone sweep...
> 
> It could take multiple calibrations experimenting with different settings both before and after the set up process before things start dialing in. What worked for me may not in your case...


Thank you..
I'll mess with it this weekend and see what I come up with...


----------



## camfreem7

I have a question about running separate mid and tweeter for my center. I am currently using a 4" coaxial, but its not the best speaker and I feel using it is taking away from my really nice components. So, without having to do serious modification to fit a 5.25 or 6.6 coaxial in my dash I want to run a separate 4" mid and a really nice tweeter, but I want to play the tweeter real low so a passive crossover wont work. Obviously, I don't have a spare channel on the MS-8 so I need some kind of active crossover. Any suggestions? I have heard a little about the mini-DSP but don't know much about it or separate electronic crossovers I could use.


----------



## subwoofery

camfreem7 said:


> I have a question about running separate mid and tweeter for my center. I am currently using a 4" coaxial, but its not the best speaker and I feel using it is taking away from my really nice components. So, without having to do serious modification to fit a 5.25 or 6.6 coaxial in my dash I want to run a separate 4" mid and a really nice tweeter, but I want to play the tweeter real low so a passive crossover wont work. Obviously, I don't have a spare channel on the MS-8 so I need some kind of active crossover. Any suggestions? I have heard a little about the mini-DSP but don't know much about it or separate electronic crossovers I could use.


... or buy an amp that has DSP built-in ; Zapco DC Ref comes to mind. 
Mosconi, Helix and a few others have one. 

Kelvin


----------



## thehatedguy

How low is "real low?"


----------



## camfreem7

subwoofery said:


> ... or buy an amp that has DSP built-in ; Zapco DC Ref comes to mind.
> Mosconi, Helix and a few others have one.
> 
> Kelvin


Yeah I had thought about that but couldn't find, only amps with your standard HPF that doesn't go high enough, so thanks for the suggestions do you know of any that will do like 2x100 @ 4 ohms? I'll do some digging but so far I think the Zapcos I've seen only will do 50x2 or 50x4.

Also, I'm wondering if there is a consensus on center vs. no center if one is only worried about one driver position? While I only have the 4" coaxial I am debating not using the center, and I have had an ear infection for the last 3 weeks that is significantly effecting my hearing and thus not allowing me to decide for myself between the two. Any thoughts would be helpful.


----------



## thehatedguy

The Zapco DC Reference 750.2 will do 175x2 and the DC Reference 1000.4s like I have do 150x4. There is also a DC Reference 360.2 that does 100x2.


----------



## kaigoss69

camfreem7 said:


> Also, I'm wondering if there is a consensus on center vs. no center if one is only worried about one driver position? While I only have the 4" coaxial I am debating not using the center, and I have had an ear infection for the last 3 weeks that is significantly effecting my hearing and thus not allowing me to decide for myself between the two. Any thoughts would be helpful.


My position is as follows: If you only care about your seat, AND you don't have a problem with beaming of the midrange speakers, then don't use a center. If the mids are low in the doors, and they are pulling the stage down, or you have a dip in the FR due to beaming, then use the center.


----------



## 1lowlife

Well, I messed around with the setups yesterday.
Every time I do a calibration is seems to sound better.
It is finally starting to sound better with Logic 7 on rather than off.
Also sounding better with the MS-8 processing active rather than defeated.
When I first started this, it always sounded better with L7 off and processing defeated.

It seems I got better results turning my amp gains all the way down, to do calibrations, then turning them to nominal afterwards.
That seemed to help my volume, but I'm still turning the HU up to 30 (halfway) just to *begin* normal listening.
That is with the MS-8 set a 00, all the way up after calibration.
I guess that is just the way it is going to be.

I did dig a few cds out of the closet and they do sound much better than the radio.
Although my sound is still a little rough around the edges.
Now that I've accepted the volume is what it is, I can dabble in trying different crossover and MS-8 volume settings.

Tried using the aux input and it didn't make a difference in sound or volume.
Well, only difference was I couldn't use the HU to control the volume.
But the iPhone thru AUX sounds the same as my iPhone running thru Bluetooth with the HU.

I just find it odd that roboots21 barely turns his HU up past 30, and that is an average starting listening point for me.
We have the same vehicle; year, model, stock Entune non-JBL radio.
We have similar amps, he has an Alpine MRX-V70 and I have an Alpine PDXV-9, my amp has a little more power than his does.
Although we do have different speakers and sub setups, I wouldn't think a speaker is going to be that much louder or not louder.
He has Polk speakers and I have Focal, but they have the same 92 dB sensitivity, well the Focals are 92.2 dB.

The MS-8 seems to learn as I go.
I can do the same calibration with the same settings, and it sounds better the second time than it did the first.
HU output didn't make any difference in the setup.
Whether I put it on 50 or 62 (with a 63 MAX), it sounds the same afterwards, but I set in it lowest OK OK OK setting, which is 49 for me.
The ending volume did get a little louder setting the amp gains down while going thru the calibrations, then turning them back up afterwards.
Even with the stock system, I was able to turn the volume to 60 with XM radio and it still sounded pretty good.

Putting the MS-8 on 40, rather than 30, during calibration also gave me better results.
But I'm still turning the MS-8 to 00, all the way up after calibrations are done.
I need to mess around with these levels as well.

I need to get out of the neighborhood and run some sine tone and wave tests to see when the clipping starts.
I don't want to turn up the gains on the amp or crank the subs in the driveway for testing like I'd like to.
I guess I could, but I don't want to bother the neighbors.
Need to play with the EQ too and see what it can do.

So, it is getting better, but I still wish I had more headroom with the volume..
I know the amp has it, it was much louder with the AC LC6i.
But I think the MS-8 is holding my amp back since my rears/sides and center run off the MS-8 internal amp.

I appreciate the help I've found here and look forward to any more input on my system..


----------



## kaigoss69

1lowlife said:


> But I think the MS-8 is holding my amp back since my rears/sides and center run off the MS-8 internal amp.


Ding Ding Ding... We have a winner! 

Just for kicks, set it up only with the externally amplified speakers, and don't turn down the amp gains for calibration. Then I am sure you will get more headroom, and it'll probably sound better, too! Takes five minutes, try it!


----------



## 1lowlife

kaigoss69 said:


> Ding Ding Ding... We have a winner!
> 
> Just for kicks, set it up only with the externally amplified speakers, and don't turn down the amp gains for calibration. Then I am sure you will get more headroom, and it'll probably sound better, too! Takes five minutes, try it!


Good idea, I'll try that today.
I'm thinking about buying another amp for the rears and center.
Trying your suggestion will help figure that out..


----------



## thehatedguy

I would say the center rather than the rears is the bottleneck.


----------



## FordEscape

subwoofery said:


> ... or buy an amp that has DSP built-in ; Zapco DC Ref comes to mind.
> Mosconi, Helix and a few others have one.
> 
> Kelvin


OK, looking for some help with conceptual understanding here ...

ASSUME:
All MS-8 output channels utilized -
2x2-way active front
1-way center (2-way speaker with passive X-over)
2x1-way side(rear) (2-way speakers with passive x-over)
subwoofer
total = 8 channels
Assume all are driven by external amps

GOAL:
2-way active center to be able to better tune the center woofer/tweeter relative to each other

METHOD(S):
1) Insert a MiniDSP (or equivalent) between the MS-8 1-way center out and two amp channels driving the center woofer & tweeter separately. Adjust the MiniDSP to tune the center woofer/tweeter crossover and level relative to each other. Proceed with MS-8 setup, reiterating as necessary to get it all 'balanced'.
2) Same as above but using a 2-channel amp with built-in DSP instead of the separate MiniDSP. Use a 'splitter RCA' to get from the MS-8 single channel center-out to the 2 inputs for each of the center amp channels. Tune, setup and tweak as in 1).

? Any center channel latency through the MiniDSP or external amp DSP downstream of MS-8 is automatically 'corrected' by the MS-8 in the MS-8 setup process.

? Have I got that right ??

(accepting that the actual tuning of everything may be a bit more iterative/complex in reality)

Thanks In Advance


----------



## t3sn4f2

1lowlife said:


> Well, I messed around with the setups yesterday.
> Every time I do a calibration is seems to sound better.
> It is finally starting to sound better with Logic 7 on rather than off.
> Also sounding better with the MS-8 processing active rather than defeated.
> When I first started this, it always sounded better with L7 off and processing defeated.
> 
> It seems I got better results turning my amp gains all the way down, to do calibrations, then turning them to nominal afterwards.
> That seemed to help my volume, but I'm still turning the HU up to 30 (halfway) just to *begin* normal listening.
> That is with the MS-8 set a 00, all the way up after calibration.
> I guess that is just the way it is going to be.
> 
> I did dig a few cds out of the closet and they do sound much better than the radio.
> Although my sound is still a little rough around the edges.
> Now that I've accepted the volume is what it is, I can dabble in trying different crossover and MS-8 volume settings.
> 
> Tried using the aux input and it didn't make a difference in sound or volume.
> Well, only difference was I couldn't use the HU to control the volume.
> But the iPhone thru AUX sounds the same as my iPhone running thru Bluetooth with the HU.
> 
> I just find it odd that roboots21 barely turns his HU up past 30, and that is an average starting listening point for me.
> We have the same vehicle; year, model, stock Entune non-JBL radio.
> We have similar amps, he has an Alpine MRX-V70 and I have an Alpine PDXV-9, my amp has a little more power than his does.
> Although we do have different speakers and sub setups, I wouldn't think a speaker is going to be that much louder or not louder.
> He has Polk speakers and I have Focal, but they have the same 92 dB sensitivity, well the Focals are 92.2 dB.
> 
> The MS-8 seems to learn as I go.
> I can do the same calibration with the same settings, and it sounds better the second time than it did the first.
> HU output didn't make any difference in the setup.
> Whether I put it on 50 or 62 (with a 63 MAX), it sounds the same afterwards, but I set in it lowest OK OK OK setting, which is 49 for me.
> The ending volume did get a little louder setting the amp gains down while going thru the calibrations, then turning them back up afterwards.
> Even with the stock system, I was able to turn the volume to 60 with XM radio and it still sounded pretty good.
> 
> Putting the MS-8 on 40, rather than 30, during calibration also gave me better results.
> But I'm still turning the MS-8 to 00, all the way up after calibrations are done.
> I need to mess around with these levels as well.
> 
> I need to get out of the neighborhood and run some sine tone and wave tests to see when the clipping starts.
> I don't want to turn up the gains on the amp or crank the subs in the driveway for testing like I'd like to.
> I guess I could, but I don't want to bother the neighbors.
> Need to play with the EQ too and see what it can do.
> 
> So, it is getting better, but I still wish I had more headroom with the volume..
> I know the amp has it, it was much louder with the AC LC6i.
> But I think the MS-8 is holding my amp back since my rears/sides and center run off the MS-8 internal amp.
> 
> I appreciate the help I've found here and look forward to any more input on my system..


Don't forget to do a restore to factory default every so often while doing multiple calibrations. Andy mentioned some type of memory over flow after many calibrations could be the cause of the infamous speaker destroying jet engine noise.


----------



## 1lowlife

I tried just running the amped speakers only and it really was not much difference on the HU volume level.
Maybe a little louder..



thehatedguy said:


> I would say the center rather than the rears is the bottleneck.


Being you think the center is the issue, what would be the fix?
Should I buy another amp for the center and rears to try to even everything out?

Should I try a better center speaker?

My current speakers;
Front speakers - Focal PS 165 FX 2-WAY COMPONENT 
Rear speakers - Focal 165 AC Coaxial
Center dash speaker - Polk Audio DB351

I bought the Polk because I knew if would fit and was just used for fill or so I thought.


----------



## thehatedguy

The center IMO is the most important speaker.

But what is you XO point on the center?


----------



## 1lowlife

thehatedguy said:


> The center IMO is the most important speaker.
> 
> But what is you XO point on the center?



I've tried various settings 125, 175, 200, doesn't seem to sound any different.
I've been focusing so much on my volume loss, I haven't even tried different crossover settings mostly going with the default MS-8 settings for now.
It is my understanding that the MS-8 sets it's own crossover points thru the calibrations and uses user settings as guideline.
Is that not correct?
Could all my lacking sound and overall dissatisfaction be from improper crossover settings?
Should I not get a decent result using the default crossover settings?


Now for my rant, not directed at you thehatedguy, I just gotta vent..

As I messed with all the settings this past weekend, I've come to this conclusion;
I'm just not hearing the awesomeness of the MS-8 that I read about here and on other forums.
I've spent over $700 on focal speakers, $1K on a JL Stealthbox, $600 on the Alpine amp, and $450 on the MS-8.
I'm getting nowhere near* the mind blowing, 'I'm hearing things in songs I've never heard before", the MS-8 is awesome, best thing ever,* sound that it seems EVERYONE else is getting out of it.....
None of that.

This ordeal has been nothing but frustrating.
Every calibration sounds a little better than the last, but I'm not getting the clarity and perfection I've read about.

I understand I'm using the stock HU, but there are guys on my Tundra forum using the MS-8 with stock radios and they say they are awesome.
One of them is using stock radio and stock speakers running just the MS-8 and he raves about it.
Besides that, the HU sounded fine with the stock setup.
I wasn't even going to upgrade it, but I missed the sub I had in my old pickup.

My first MS-8 was sent back because it wouldn't output correctly after the setup and testing.
Everything was fine until the setup was done, every speaker in it's appropriate place sounded in setup and in calibration sweeps, then the MS-8 would only output on 3 channels.
I sent it back, they tested it, and sent me a new one.

I'm 99% sure my speaker polarities are correct.
I used a cheap sound polarity tester and it read that all where correct.
I guess I can pull every door panel off and test each speaker with a DMM from one end of the wire to the other and make sure.
So if one speaker polarity is wrong, with that make the whole thing sound bad?
Maybe that is it, but I paid attention to detail installing and setting this up, making sure my polarities were correct along the way.

I'm also 99.9% sure my input from the radio to the MS-8 is correct.
I've checked it several times.
If the polarities of the input were incorrect, would the MS-8 still give me an OK OK OK?
As far as that goes, I'm relying on a info from the Tundra forums telling me which stock wire is what.
What color wire is left/right/ positive/negative of the front speaker output from the radio.
I wired my stuff according to info given there.
How can I test that that is correct with a DMM?
My LC6i didn't sound that good either, I thought I just needed some EQ for that stock HU, so I bought the MS-8.
Perhaps I've screwed that up?
But the AUX input of the MS-8 doesn't sound any better, or louder, than BT on the radio using my iPhone.
So it would seem, it is not a radio output polarity issue.

I guess there is something wrong with what I've got.
I think every thing is wired properly.
Everything sounds fine when doing the setup and sweeps for the calibrations.
Once I turn on the radio and stick a CD in, it sounds lacking, uneven, and unclear.
I know that isn't very helpful, but it is what I have.
To me, the calibration sweeps sound better than a cd playing in the HU.
The Focal PS 165FX speakers don't sound any where near what they sounded like in the store I bought them from.
They were the clearest speakers I've ever heard in any store, but not in my truck.
I had no intention of spending $550 for one pair of component speakers for my front doors until I heard them in the store.

Even though I live in a highly populated area, I can't find one shop that sells the MS-8 and installs them.
I have one that has installed a few for customers, and I may go to him and see what he can do.
But the majority of the shop guys, even the 'certified' installers around here seem to be full of sh!t.
A few of them talked me out of the MS-8 in the first place saying they were too complicated.
One installer recommended an AC LC6i over an LC7i because the LC7i has too many knobs.
Another was more concerned with what he wanted me buy, than what I wanted to buy.
He gave me a $4K estimate for $2K worth of equipment.
These are the local installers around here I've dealt with, which is why I found components I wanted and installed it myself.
So my trust in having someone that knows nothing about the MS-8, look at my setup for me is nonexistent.

I've been doing my own basic installs since 1978, which is why I put it all in.
Every connection I needed goes to an under seat crappy factory amp that runs the door speakers.
Everything plugs into existing stock wiring harnesses, I didn't splice one stock wire to install any of this..

Anyway, sorry for the rant.
But I just cannot figure out why this thing isn't working like I want it to.
I want it to work like the reviews and posts that I've read here and elsewhere, many of them using stock radios.
I mean, isn't that what the MS-8 was made to do, improve the sound of a STOCK radio?
I'm getting tired of spending every weekend trying to make it work.
I've read so many pages of this thread in the last 3 weeks, you'd think I'd be an MS-8 expert, but obviously, I'm far from it....

I might just be the most hated guy now..

I'm all open and welcoming of any and all input from anyone that reads this.
If I'm an idiot, tell me I'm an idiot.
If I'm doing something wrong, please tell me.
If I have a misconception of the MS-8, how it works or what I should expect from it, please correct me.
I'm no professional installer, nor do I have vast knowledge of audio as a whole, but I can usually get by doing things myself.
But this MS-8 is kicking my ass.


----------



## kaigoss69

1lowlife said:


> It is my understanding that the MS-8 sets it's own crossover points thru the calibrations and uses user settings as guideline.
> Is that not correct?
> Could all my lacking sound and overall dissatisfaction be from improper crossover settings?
> Should I not get a decent result using the default crossover settings?


No, MS-8 does not select crossover points, you do!
What is the x-over between the tweeters and mids?


----------



## 1lowlife

kaigoss69 said:


> No, MS-8 does not select crossover points, you do!
> What is the x-over between the tweeters and mids?


There is my first misconception corrected, this gives me hope..

I've tried the default 3500HZ and 4000Hz, slope at 24 dB/octave.
One didn't sound any better than the other..


----------



## swargolet

I am sort of in the same boat as you where I try so many different things with the MS8 and just don't have much luck. Also like you, it seems like every time I mess with it, it sounds slightly better but not great. I've purchased different equipment, bought a separate calibration microphone for doing my own sweeps, tried multiple suggestions from this thread, and each time I end up getting something that sounds just slightly better than the previous calibration but doesn't blow me away. I'm at the point now where I would much rather just live with what I have then put more time into it. My biggest complaint is the lack of volume. You seem to have a volume issue as well and I've read others do too, but all the suggestions really do very little. I have 400 watts going to the front channels and 500 to my sub, that should be plenty of power IMO.

I personally disagree with thehatedguy's comment about the center being the most important. I hooked up a switch so I can easily disconnect the center and recalibrate. When tuning for the drivers seat, I've noticed that there really isn't that big of a difference by using the center or not. From the passenger seat it is very apparent though.

As for your issues, it still does sound like you have speakers out of phase. Andy stated above that the MS8 corrects the input polarity but it does not do anything for the output polarity. There are plenty of polarity test tracks out there that you can try. Usually when speakers are wired incorrectly, vocals don't sound focussed and you'll get a thin sound like you described. A DMM can be used to make sure that you know what end of the wire by the speaker goes to what end of the wire by the amp. There are plenty of ways to check polarity though, just look up tests online.


----------



## thehatedguy

The MS8 will send what ever frequencies below the center XO point to the fronts. So if you have the center crossed at 125, then everything between 125 and your sub XO point will go to the other fronts. And with a 3.5" speaker playing 125 and up...you just can't expect a lot of volume. I ran a 7" center crossed at about the same frequency FWIW.

I would really raise that center of yours up to like 3-400 hertz if it were me.

No worries about the long post...just might take me a bit to digest it- my 2y/o son is crawling on me wanting to watch fire trucks on the computer right now.


----------



## thehatedguy

If you guys aren't getting volume, then something is wrong. I the last MS-8 setup I had used 3 JL HD600/4s. I would calibrate using the setup disk to find my volume on the deck, then do the chirps at about -35 or -38 and then get to -12 on the MS-8 master volume before it sounded bad.

But like I said, I was running a 3 way fronts and center all with 7" midbasses and it got pretty loud.

And why wouldn't the center be the most important? It's only where about 90% of the music is at.


----------



## 1lowlife

swargolet said:


> I am sort of in the same boat as you where I try so many different things with the MS8 and just don't have much luck. Also like you, it seems like every time I mess with it, it sounds slightly better but not great. I've purchased different equipment, bought a separate calibration microphone for doing my own sweeps, tried multiple suggestions from this thread, and each time I end up getting something that sounds just slightly better than the previous calibration but doesn't blow me away. I'm at the point now where I would much rather just live with what I have then put more time into it. My biggest complaint is the lack of volume. You seem to have a volume issue as well and I've read others do too, but all the suggestions really do very little. I have 400 watts going to the front channels and 500 to my sub, that should be plenty of power IMO.
> 
> I personally disagree with thehatedguy's comment about the center being the most important. I hooked up a switch so I can easily disconnect the center and recalibrate. When tuning for the drivers seat, I've noticed that there really isn't that big of a difference by using the center or not. From the passenger seat it is very apparent though.
> 
> As for your issues, it still does sound like you have speakers out of phase. Andy stated above that the MS8 corrects the input polarity but it does not do anything for the output polarity. There are plenty of polarity test tracks out there that you can try. Usually when speakers are wired incorrectly, vocals don't sound focussed and you'll get a thin sound like you described. A DMM can be used to make sure that you know what end of the wire by the speaker goes to what end of the wire by the amp. There are plenty of ways to check polarity though, just look up tests online.





thehatedguy said:


> The MS8 will send what ever frequencies below the center XO point to the fronts. So if you have the center crossed at 125, then everything between 125 and your sub XO point will go to the other fronts. And with a 3.5" speaker playing 125 and up...you just can't expect a lot of volume. I ran a 7" center crossed at about the same frequency FWIW.
> 
> I would really raise that center of yours up to like 3-400 hertz if it were me.
> 
> No worries about the long post...just might take me a bit to digest it- my 2y/o son is crawling on me wanting to watch fire trucks on the computer right now.



Thanks guys..

I'll look into different polarity tests and raising the center crossover.

What you describe is what I have, swargole.
Just a general issue of not sounding good.
I'd like to get more technical, but the overall sound is so crappy, I don't know where to start.
I mean, it sounds OK, but my stock setup sounded OK.
The MS-8 should be better than OK.
If I have to pull the door panels and speakers to test polarity directly I can do that, maybe this coming weekend.
Or maybe one door a day before work.
I'm getting pretty good at taking this truck apart..

Perhaps my issue is just I don't have enough knowledge of crossover points, frequencies, and slopes to figure this out.
I've tired to read about them and learn, but it is very overwhelming to me.

I'm more than willing to learn, and I appreciate any and all help from you guys...
I want to get this MS-8 sounding good.
My alternate choice was an AC DQ-61, and I'm sure I'd have hell setting it up..

Thanks again..


----------



## 1lowlife

thehatedguy said:


> If you guys aren't getting volume, then something is wrong. I the last MS-8 setup I had used 3 JL HD600/4s. I would calibrate using the setup disk to find my volume on the deck, then do the chirps at about -35 or -38 and then get to -12 on the MS-8 master volume before it sounded bad.
> 
> But like I said, I was running a 3 way fronts and center all with 7" midbasses and it got pretty loud.
> 
> And why wouldn't the center be the most important? It's only where about 90% of the music is at.


So you amped all speakers?
I'm running the center and rears off the MS-8 internal amp.
Should I get an amp for them?

No matter what I do chirps on, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, I still have to run my MS-8 to 05 or 00 to get decent volume from the HU.
My HU goes to 63, I do 49-50 with the setup CD to OK OK OK, but can go to 62 and still get OK OK OK.
Doesn't make a difference in the end what I use, 49 or 62 sound the same at the end of the setup..
I can't get a starting decent listening volume until 30 on the HU and 00 on the MS-8..
I'm wondering if the MS-8 is trying to match the amp output with its own output.
Although I usually do my calibrations with the amp gains all the way down or maybe 1/4 to 1/3 way up.
then I turn the gains up after the calibrations..
But when I did the setup with just the amped fronts and sub, I had the same results with the HU volume.
Another guy with the same basic setup and truck, rarely turns his HU up past 35..

Anyway, I gotta get to work..


----------



## swargolet

thehatedguy said:


> The MS8 will send what ever frequencies below the center XO point to the fronts. So if you have the center crossed at 125, then everything between 125 and your sub XO point will go to the other fronts. And with a 3.5" speaker playing 125 and up...you just can't expect a lot of volume. I ran a 7" center crossed at about the same frequency FWIW.
> 
> I would really raise that center of yours up to like 3-400 hertz if it were me.


I completely agree. Andy has stated that it is best to use the same speaker setup in the center that you use for your fronts. For most people though, that obviously isn't feasible given the space restrictions, so if you do decide to use a smaller center like a 3.5", then crossover a bit higher. I tried a higher crossover and completely disabling the center to see if it fixed my volume issues and it didnt




thehatedguy said:


> If you guys aren't getting volume, then something is wrong. I the last MS-8 setup I had used 3 JL HD600/4s. I would calibrate using the setup disk to find my volume on the deck, then do the chirps at about -35 or -38 and then get to -12 on the MS-8 master volume before it sounded bad.
> 
> But like I said, I was running a 3 way fronts and center all with 7" midbasses and it got pretty loud.
> 
> And why wouldn't the center be the most important? It's only where about 90% of the music is at.


I don't disagree that something is probably setup incorrectly, but no one can seem to point me in the correct direction. I've followed different suggestions on setting the gains, different calibration levels, and messing with the gain/eq after the calibration all with no luck. I don't know if the MS8 is picking up some crazy null in my car and adjusting the other frequencies to that null or what is going on, but 900W for the front stage and sub should be plenty



1lowlife said:


> So you amped all speakers?
> I'm running the center and rears off the MS-8 internal amp.
> Should I get an amp for them?
> 
> No matter what I do chirps on, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, I still have to run my MS-8 to 05 or 00 to get decent volume from the HU.
> My HU goes to 63, I do 49-50 with the setup CD to OK OK OK, but can go to 62 and still get OK OK OK.
> Doesn't make a difference in the end what I use, 49 or 62 sound the same at the end of the setup..
> I can't get a starting decent listening volume until 30 on the HU and 00 on the MS-8..
> I'm wondering if the MS-8 is trying to match the amp output with its own output.
> Although I usually do my calibrations with the amp gains all the way down or maybe 1/4 to 1/3 way up.
> then I turn the gains up after the calibrations..
> But when I did the setup with just the amped fronts and sub, I had the same results with the HU volume.
> Another guy with the same basic setup and truck, rarely turns his HU up past 35..
> 
> Anyway, I gotta get to work..


I run my fronts and sub on an external amp and the rears and center off the MS8 just like you. I wouldn't be surprised if running the center off the MS8 is an issue but I would be surprised if running the rears would be. 

I have the same results as you with the chirps. As long as I'm above -30 or so, then the results really don't change. I keep my ms8 set to -06 as I remember reading somewhere in this thread that any higher and it will start to clip. I don't even use my HU anymore, just route straight through the aux port on the MS8. With your setup, I'm not sure how much the HU volume comes into play during the input setup. I would assume that as long as 'OK OK OK' is displayed, it shouldn't matter. The HU volume does NOT come into play during the chirps.


----------



## Arthur71

Input check OK OK OK is only used for the speakerlevel and pre-amp inputs, NOT for the aux input. If your speaker level is low because it goes to a stock amp, then you can connect it to to the line level inputs on the ms8. They are the same as the speaker level only they need less power to produce the OK OK OK sign, gives you more input headroom. I would suggest to start with only a 2 channel setup. Just assign 4 channels to the front composet and see how that sounds like. This is much easier for the ms8. Than ad the sub re-calibrate, etc.


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met behulp van Tapatalk


----------



## Schnathorst

I just finished installing my MS-8 and now have the following system configuration:

H/U: Kenwood DDX771
DSP: JBL MS-8
Sub Amp: JL Audio 600/1 V2 (Mono Sub Amp)
Sub Woofer: JL Audio HO110-w6v3
Main Amp: Rockford Fosgate P600/4X (4 Channel)
Rear Speakers: JL Audio C3-600, coax configuration
Front Speakers: JL Audio C3-600, component configuration

I installed the front mids on the doors and the tweets on the a-pillars. I removed the JL Audio passive cross-over on the fronts and went active with the MS-8 powering the tweets and the RF amp powering the mids. I followed the MS-8 calibration instructions and the front stage sounds great; however, I lost the punch and tight bass i had before installing the MS-8. I don't want to sacrifice the punch and tight bass for a great sound stage; I want both. Here is some other information that may be useful. I turned off all of the active XO's on my amps and made the following cross over settings on the MS-8:

Sub: Subsonic filter at 30Hz, LP at 120hz (amp subsonic filter is still on)
Front Mid: Band-pass setting at 75hz and 4000hz 
Front Tweets: HP at 4000hz
Rears: 75hz HP, with passive crossovers separating mids from tweets

I've tried using the 31 band EQ to bring back the tight bass but it's still 'bleeding.' Any recommendations how to fine tune the MS-8 to bring back the original bass with out losing the front stage? Feel free to point me to other threads. One final note, I activated two channels on the MS-8 to feed the L & R channel on the sub-amp to give it a stronger signal. Perhaps this is the problem and I should use a single RCA with a Y-splitter (JL Audio recommends a Y-splitter for a single RCA signal feed).

Thanks,
SS


----------



## thehatedguy

I had them all amped then. This time around right now I will be running my rears off of the MS8 until I can get another amp.


----------



## thehatedguy

You are running the rears fullrange? They should be something like 150 and up.


----------



## thehatedguy

And how are you getting over and under lapping XO points on the MS8? I was pretty sure it couldn't do that.


----------



## Dumple

Ok I've been doing some reading and I'm a bit confused . I've got the basic concepts of the ms8; I've read as much of the faq and this thread but I've got some questions.
1. I want to run 3 Way front 2 side/rear center and sub but that's obviously that's more than 8 outputs. Ok question I have 6.5 in the door stock locations, tweeters about 10 inches above the 6.5, if I were to add say a3.5 full range I would want to run a passive xo on them but would it be smarter to run then off the tweeter or the 6.5?
2. most 4 channel amps can be switched to run one input to the 4 outputs (ie L+R in , LF+RF,LR+RR out ) so is it better to run say the tweeter and 3.5 like that off the amp or have external passive crossovers.
3. I've read disconnecting speakers durring the calibration cwhen using an external xo is how you achive as close to possible TA , how does that work.


Or would it be more beneficial to run the front 3 way setup off 6 channels from the ms8 center and sub from the remaining two channels and run the rears passive off the front low range


----------



## Schnathorst

You're right, the MS-8 doesn't allow overlap, the front mids are crossed over at 75hz LP and 4khz. Also, the rears are crossed over at 75hz LP and the passive XO's manage the separation between mids and tweets on the coax.


----------



## thehatedguy

I would do the mids and tweeters off of a passive XO. That's how I did a 3 way front stage with a center, rears, and sub.

For the fronts, you can cover the tweeters on the first set of chirps- those are the ones that determine the delay. TA isn't really necessary as much on the tweeters as it would be on the midsranges.



Dumple said:


> Ok I've been doing some reading and I'm a bit confused . I've got the basic concepts of the ms8; I've read as much of the faq and this thread but I've got some questions.
> 1. I want to run 3 Way front 2 side/rear center and sub but that's obviously that's more than 8 outputs. Ok question I have 6.5 in the door stock locations, tweeters about 10 inches above the 6.5, if I were to add say a3.5 full range I would want to run a passive xo on them but would it be smarter to run then off the tweeter or the 6.5?
> 2. most 4 channel amps can be switched to run one input to the 4 outputs (ie L+R in , LF+RF,LR+RR out ) so is it better to run say the tweeter and 3.5 like that off the amp or have external passive crossovers.
> 3. I've read disconnecting speakers durring the calibration cwhen using an external xo is how you achive as close to possible TA , how does that work.
> 
> 
> Or would it be more beneficial to run the front 3 way setup off 6 channels from the ms8 center and sub from the remaining two channels and run the rears passive off the front low range


----------



## thehatedguy

That's too low for the rears. You don't need to go that low. I used to run my rears at 60-65 because they were 6x9s. On a tip from Andy, I raised them to 100 and everything got better. I ended up around 120 but couldn't tell much difference at 150.



Schnathorst said:


> You're right, the MS-8 doesn't allow overlap, the front mids are crossed over at 75hz LP and 4khz. Also, the rears are crossed over at 75hz LP and the passive XO's manage the separation between mids and tweets on the coax.


----------



## Dumple

thehatedguy said:


> I would do the mids and tweeters off of a passive XO. That's how I did a 3 way front stage with a center, rears, and sub.
> 
> For the fronts, you can cover the tweeters on the first set of chirps- those are the ones that determine the delay. TA isn't really necessary as much on the tweeters as it would be on the midsranges.


With that being said then is it crucial for the mid and tweeter be as near as possible to each other Or if done that way is it not as important


----------



## thehatedguy

Closer is better.

Though I have an idea with my next setup that might have them a foot apart.


----------



## Dumple

thehatedguy said:


> Closer is better.
> 
> Though I have an idea with my next setup that might have them a foot apart.


unfortunately with how I want aesthetic I want the mid low in the door card near the mid


----------



## thehatedguy

It's not optimal, but I don't think the world will stop spinning if you do that.


----------



## reclermo

Input question: Installing in a VW Phaeton (likely similar amp package in the trunk as the Bentley Continental/Flying Spur/Audi A8). I saw on the wiring diagram that there are a pair of inputs going into the amplifier. Can I assume these are full range inputs and should be connected to the MS-8, or shall I go ahead and connect the amp outputs (3 way fronts) to the MS-8 as the input. Thanks in advance for your assistance!


----------



## Lanson

thehatedguy said:


> I would do the mids and tweeters off of a passive XO. That's how I did a 3 way front stage with a center, rears, and sub.
> 
> For the fronts, you can cover the tweeters on the first set of chirps- those are the ones that determine the delay. TA isn't really necessary as much on the tweeters as it would be on the midsranges.


Agreed with all this, this is exactly what I did with the Flex build. The MS-8 had zero issue working with my simple passives which were just 4 component units (two inductors, two capacitors, simple 2nd order), not even an L-pad or anything. Any and all EQ issues associated with a too-simple crossover were resolved at the MS-8, and the result is a really nice stage with the blend of active MS-8 and my passives. Making passives is not difficult, it turns out, if you follow some basic rules and let the MS-8 handle the EQ variable. Exception in my case, the time alignment still was spot-on even with my tweeters connected during the setup phase, but I was prepared to disable them with some quick-disconnect XT-60 connectors because I heard about doing that just like he's suggesting.


Oh and on the rear channels, also agreed, keep them high. Mine cross at 120hz, and everything is perfect.


----------



## thehatedguy

I just put pieces of tape over my tweeters when I covered them up. But I too had great results with them covered and uncovered.


----------



## Dumple

Awesome info guys tthanks


----------



## 1lowlife

For the hell of it, when I got off work and in my work parking lot, I did a series of testing.
I tried multiple testing of running all L/R pairs of speakers separately as 2 channel systems.
I tried the front tweeters, front mids, rears, with and without the center, all without the sub.
Only the tweeters alone sounded decent, I used the crossover on the amp at 3K because I don't have any caps on them. 
Kinda surprised me because I was worried I blew them when I had the LC6i hooked up, although I was then using the Focal crossover that came with the speakers.
I've since pulled it out when i installed the MS-8.
Everything else sounded dull and off, and none increased my base level of volume.
Not even running the rears (with or without the center) of the MS-8 set on 20 for the calibration.
I'm still turning the HU up halfway, to get a decent starting point for volume.
No matter what I do, I'm having to set the MS-8 on 05 or 00 after ANY calibration to obtain the half way up HU decent starting point volume.

And I forgot to mention, my sub rumbles, it doesn't punch or thump, it rumbles on any gain or setting I use.
It is muddy and muffled, even at the lowest gain setting.
It is a sealed Stealthbox with 2 10" subs running on 500w RMS, but it should sound better.
I should hear a thump of a bass drum, not a rumbling mass of sound.

Is it the settings?
Is it the HU?
Is it the MS-8?
Is it me just being a moron?

I only get more and more frustrated as I try to make this work...

Sorry, still venting...


----------



## Dumple

1lowlife said:


> For the hell of it, when I got off work and in my work parking lot, I did a series of testing.
> I tried multiple testing of running all L/R pairs of speakers separately as 2 channel systems.
> I tried the front tweeters, front mids, rears, with and without the center, all without the sub.
> Only the tweeters alone sounded decent, I used the crossover on the amp at 3K because I don't have any caps on them.
> Kinda surprised me because I was worried I blew them when I had the LC6i hooked up, although I was then using the Focal crossover that came with the speakers.
> I've since pulled it out when i installed the MS-8.
> Everything else sounded dull and off, and none increased my base level of volume.
> Not even running the rears (with or without the center) of the MS-8 set on 20 for the calibration.
> I'm still turning the HU up halfway, to get a decent starting point for volume.
> No matter what I do, I'm having to set the MS-8 on 05 or 00 after ANY calibration to obtain the half way up HU decent starting point volume.
> 
> And I forgot to mention, my sub rumbles, it doesn't punch or thump, it rumbles on any gain or setting I use.
> It is muddy and muffled, even at the lowest gain setting.
> It is a sealed Stealthbox with 2 10" subs running on 500w RMS, but it should sound better.
> I should hear a thump of a bass drum, not a rumbling mass of sound.
> 
> Is it the settings?
> Is it the HU?
> Is it the MS-8?
> Is it me just being a moron?
> 
> I only get more and more frustrated as I try to make this work...
> 
> Sorry, still venting...


Do you have any filters on the head unit on loudness bass boost or anything ?


----------



## Dumple

do you have Facebook easier to msg on there I'm no pro but I've been messing with my ms8 for nearly a year


----------



## 1lowlife

Dumple said:


> Do you have any filters on the head unit on loudness bass boost or anything ?


No everything on my stock HU is set even in the middle.
Balance, fader, 3 levels of tone (bass, mid, treble), everything.




Dumple said:


> do you have Facebook easier to msg on there I'm no pro but I've been messing with my ms8 for nearly a year


I don't do FB messaging since they forced it on everyone.
As far as FB, I only have it to keep and eye on my kids.
I have a whopping 12 FB friends.

Feel free to shoot me a PM if you'd like.

Sorry to sound like a whiny little *****, but I'm at my wits end trying to make this MS-8 work.....


----------



## 14642

Schnathorst said:


> I just finished installing my MS-8 and now have the following system configuration:
> 
> H/U: Kenwood DDX771
> DSP: JBL MS-8
> Sub Amp: JL Audio 600/1 V2 (Mono Sub Amp)
> Sub Woofer: JL Audio HO110-w6v3
> Main Amp: Rockford Fosgate P600/4X (4 Channel)
> Rear Speakers: JL Audio C3-600, coax configuration
> Front Speakers: JL Audio C3-600, component configuration
> 
> I installed the front mids on the doors and the tweets on the a-pillars. I removed the JL Audio passive cross-over on the fronts and went active with the MS-8 powering the tweets and the RF amp powering the mids. I followed the MS-8 calibration instructions and the front stage sounds great; however, I lost the punch and tight bass i had before installing the MS-8. I don't want to sacrifice the punch and tight bass for a great sound stage; I want both. Here is some other information that may be useful. I turned off all of the active XO's on my amps and made the following cross over settings on the MS-8:
> 
> Sub: Subsonic filter at 30Hz, LP at 120hz (amp subsonic filter is still on)
> Front Mid: Band-pass setting at 75hz and 4000hz
> Front Tweets: HP at 4000hz
> Rears: 75hz LP, with passive crossovers separating mids from tweets
> 
> I've tried using the 31 band EQ to bring back the tight bass but it's still 'bleeding.' Any recommendations how to fine tune the MS-8 to bring back the original bass with out losing the front stage? Feel free to point me to other threads. One final note, I activated two channels on the MS-8 to feed the L & R channel on the sub-amp to give it a stronger signal. Perhaps this is the problem and I should use a single RCA with a Y-splitter (JL Audio recommends a Y-splitter for a single RCA signal feed).
> 
> Thanks,
> SS


Choose 2-way for the front. The sub low pass should set the front low HP to the same frequency. You don't have punchy bass because you have identified your front woofer as a mid in a 3-way system and crossing it over at 75Hz (creating a big band of frequencies that overlap) is killing the punchy bass.

Front: 2-way
Subsonic:20Hz, 12dB/octave
Sub LP: 80Hz, 24dB/oct
Front Low/Hi: 3500Hz 24dB/oct

Try that.


----------



## 14642

1lowlife said:


> For the hell of it, when I got off work and in my work parking lot, I did a series of testing.
> I tried multiple testing of running all L/R pairs of speakers separately as 2 channel systems.
> I tried the front tweeters, front mids, rears, with and without the center, all without the sub.
> Only the tweeters alone sounded decent, I used the crossover on the amp at 3K because I don't have any caps on them.
> Kinda surprised me because I was worried I blew them when I had the LC6i hooked up, although I was then using the Focal crossover that came with the speakers.
> I've since pulled it out when i installed the MS-8.
> Everything else sounded dull and off, and none increased my base level of volume.
> Not even running the rears (with or without the center) of the MS-8 set on 20 for the calibration.
> I'm still turning the HU up halfway, to get a decent starting point for volume.
> No matter what I do, I'm having to set the MS-8 on 05 or 00 after ANY calibration to obtain the half way up HU decent starting point volume.
> 
> And I forgot to mention, my sub rumbles, it doesn't punch or thump, it rumbles on any gain or setting I use.
> It is muddy and muffled, even at the lowest gain setting.
> It is a sealed Stealthbox with 2 10" subs running on 500w RMS, but it should sound better.
> I should hear a thump of a bass drum, not a rumbling mass of sound.
> 
> Is it the settings?
> Is it the HU?
> Is it the MS-8?
> Is it me just being a moron?
> 
> I only get more and more frustrated as I try to make this work...
> 
> Sorry, still venting...


Try not to worry about where on the factory volume control you arrive at an appropriate volume once you're finished. You SHOULD have MS-8's volume at around -5 or so.

Please try this after turning off all the crossovers in your amps. Turn the amplifier's subwoofer crossover to the highest frequency available:

1. Set all the amp gains at about their 2V setting. Check the owner's manual for the range and just get close.
2. Set the system up as a 2-way front with a sub, just to get this started and to see if the basics are connected correctly.
Sub: Subsonic:20Hz, 12dB/octave, Sub Low Pass 80Hz, 24dB/oct
Front: 2-way, Front Low/Front High 3500Hz, 24dB/oct
Sides: None
Rear:None
Center: None

Calibrate.

Then listen. 

Turn MS-8's volume control up to -5

If the sub is muddy sounding, reverse the polarity of the sub and recalibrate. Then listen again. Choose the polarity setting that you like best, making sure to recalibrate after you switch.

If the sub still has too much rumble in both settings, then go to the 31-band EQ and turn down all of the bands between 25 and 50Hz by a few dB--maybe 6dB. 

Turn the head unit's control up until you have a reasonable level without distortion. If that isn't loud enough, then turn all of the amplifier gains up until it's loud enough. 

Then check to be sure that you have a strong center image. If vocalists don't sound like they are in the center of the dash, then one of the midrange speakers is wired incorrectly (out of phase). 

Once you get this sounding good, you can add the center and the rears. Be careful not to cross the center over lower than your little center speaker can play or you'll lose a bunch of midbass output in the front. For a little 3", 200Hz is the lowest I'd even try. Also, MS8 is going to level match the front according to the output of the center. If you don't have an amplifier on it, then the overall volume of the system will be reduced.


----------



## 1lowlife

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Try not to worry about where on the factory volume control you arrive at an appropriate volume once you're finished. You SHOULD have MS-8's volume at around -5 or so.
> 
> Please try this after turning off all the crossovers in your amps. Turn the amplifier's subwoofer crossover to the highest frequency available:
> 
> 1. Set all the amp gains at about their 2V setting. Check the owner's manual for the range and just get close.
> 2. Set the system up as a 2-way front with a sub, just to get this started and to see if the basics are connected correctly.
> Sub: Subsonic:20Hz, 12dB/octave, Sub Low Pass 80Hz, 24dB/oct
> Front: 2-way, Front Low/Front High 3500Hz, 24dB/oct
> Sides: None
> Rear:None
> Center: None
> 
> Calibrate.
> 
> Then listen.
> 
> Turn MS-8's volume control up to -5
> 
> If the sub is muddy sounding, reverse the polarity of the sub and recalibrate. Then listen again. Choose the polarity setting that you like best, making sure to recalibrate after you switch.
> 
> If the sub still has too much rumble in both settings, then go to the 31-band EQ and turn down all of the bands between 25 and 50Hz by a few dB--maybe 6dB.
> 
> Turn the head unit's control up until you have a reasonable level without distortion. If that isn't loud enough, then turn all of the amplifier gains up until it's loud enough.
> 
> Then check to be sure that you have a strong center image. If vocalists don't sound like they are in the center of the dash, then one of the midrange speakers is wired incorrectly (out of phase).
> 
> Once you get this sounding good, you can add the center and the rears. Be careful not to cross the center over lower than your little center speaker can play or you'll lose a bunch of midbass output in the front. For a little 3", 200Hz is the lowest I'd even try. Also, MS8 is going to level match the front according to the output of the center. If you don't have an amplifier on it, then the overall volume of the system will be reduced.


Thank you very much Andy..
I'll try these suggestions when I have some time.

I tried running just the front components alone with sub, all running off the Alpine PDXV-9, and it just didn't sound good.
It sounds OK, but lacking in many ways..
I'm thinking one of my speakers must be out of phase.
I'm going to check each wire individually, end to end, with a DMM, when I can.
I'm beginning to think I have a speaker out of phase.
I just have an entire system of dull, flat, uneven sound.
I'm going to check each and every speaker wire from the MS-8 and amp to the actual speaker and see what I can find.
Probably be Sunday before I can do that.

I think I need to amp the center, might as well do the rears to get my volume back, with a 4 channel amp, possibly bridging 2 of those channels for the center.
Perhaps even buy a better,and larger if it will fit, center speaker.
I didn't realize what an important role the center speaker plays in this setup.
In my simple mind, I gathered the center and rears were more or less fill.
I now see that isn't the case.

Again, thank you.
I'll stop the ranting and crying until I can try these suggestions..


----------



## Schnathorst

I believe I potentially found the problem. I currently have the following channel assignments:

CH1 (MS-8 Amp) - FL Tweet, HP at 4Khz
CH2 (MS-8 Amp) - FR Tweet, HP at 4Khz
CH3 (Rockford Amp) - FL Mid, Band-pass at 75hz and 4Khz
CH4 (Rockford Amp) - FR Mid, Band-pass at 75hz and 4Khz
CH5 (JL Audio Amp) - Sub, LP at 120Hz
CH6 (JL Audio Amp) - Sup, LP at 120Hz
CH7 (Rockford Amp) - RL Coax, HP at 75hz
CH8 (Rockford Amp) - RR Coax, HP at 75Hz

I found an installation tips and tricks guide on the JBL website that says I need to use channels 7 and/or 8 for the subs so I'm going to swap my current configuration to align accordingly. I'm also going to change the LP to 80hz to see if that helps tighten the bass response. Something else I found on the installation tips and ticks guide that I thought was interesting is that the sub channel set up (none, 1, 2) does not equal 1 or 2 sub woofers rather it's 1 or 2 subwoofer inputs. Since JL Audio recommends two inputs on the 600/1 V2, I'm going to connect both channels 7 and 8 to the amp and configure the outputs accordingly. I'll let everyone know if this correct my 'bass bleeding' problem. Fortunately, I know how good the bass can sound for a reference point.

SS


----------



## Elgrosso

Schnathorst said:


> I found an installation tips and tricks guide on the JBL website that says I need to use channels 7 and/or 8 for the subs so I'm going to swap my current configuration to align accordingly. I'm also going to change the LP to 80hz to see if that helps tighten the bass response. Something else I found on the installation tips and ticks guide that I thought was interesting is that the sub channel set up (none, 1, 2) does not equal 1 or 2 sub woofers rather it's 1 or 2 subwoofer inputs. Since JL Audio recommends two inputs on the 600/1 V2, I'm going to connect both channels 7 and 8 to the amp and configure the outputs accordingly. I'll let everyone know if this correct my 'bass bleeding' problem. Fortunately, I know how good the bass can sound for a reference point.
> 
> SS


Interesting, maybe useful only if subs play higher with some stereo content?


----------



## Schnathorst

Thanks Andy! I'll add this to my list when I reconfigure and recalibrate.

SS


----------



## thehatedguy

Bring the rears up to like 125-150 too.


----------



## Dumple

thehatedguy said:


> Bring the rears up to like 125-150 too.


even if the speakers i have in the rear are capable of digging pretty low?>


----------



## Schnathorst

Shouldn't the rear HP XO be the same as the front HP XO so there's continuity between front and rear and a natural transition between subs and mid XO freqs? Andy recommended the Sub LP at 80hz which I interpret that the front mid HP would also be 80hz, correct?

SS


----------



## Schnathorst

I don't think it's about stereo content because it's a mono block amp that sums the signal. I think it's about a stronger signal strength to the mono block amp.


----------



## Elgrosso

Schnathorst said:


> Shouldn't the rear HP XO be the same as the front HP XO so there's continuity between front and rear and a natural transition between subs and mid XO freqs? Andy recommended the Sub LP at 80hz which I interpret that the front mid HP would also be 80hz, correct?
> 
> SS


Well the rears won't play the same material than front with L7.
It's usually advised to use at least 100Hz



Schnathorst said:


> I don't think it's about stereo content because it's a mono block amp that sums the signal. I think it's about a stronger signal strength to the mono block amp.


Sure, but in case of two subs/two independent channels/playing high etc


----------



## thehatedguy

No, you don't want to play them that low even if they can play that low- I had ID Ctx69s for my rears, and they could play 70-80 pretty well. But the rears only play the out of phase information from the fronts...and a lot of the LF isn't necessary or even adds to the effect the rears create.

My car sounded much better at 120-150 and up for the rears vs. 60 and up.


----------



## kaigoss69

Schnathorst said:


> I believe I potentially found the problem. I currently have the following channel assignments:
> 
> CH1 (MS-8 Amp) - FL Tweet, HP at 4Khz
> CH2 (MS-8 Amp) - FR Tweet, HP at 4Khz
> CH3 (Rockford Amp) - FL Mid, Band-pass at 75hz and 4Khz
> CH4 (Rockford Amp) - FR Mid, Band-pass at 75hz and 4Khz
> CH5 (JL Audio Amp) - Sub, LP at 120Hz
> CH6 (JL Audio Amp) - Sup, LP at 120Hz
> CH7 (Rockford Amp) - RL Coax, HP at 75hz
> CH8 (Rockford Amp) - RR Coax, HP at 75Hz
> 
> I found an installation tips and tricks guide on the JBL website that says I need to use channels 7 and/or 8 for the subs so I'm going to swap my current configuration to align accordingly. I'm also going to change the LP to 80hz to see if that helps tighten the bass response. Something else I found on the installation tips and ticks guide that I thought was interesting is that the sub channel set up (none, 1, 2) does not equal 1 or 2 sub woofers rather it's 1 or 2 subwoofer inputs. Since JL Audio recommends two inputs on the 600/1 V2, I'm going to connect both channels 7 and 8 to the amp and configure the outputs accordingly. I'll let everyone know if this correct my 'bass bleeding' problem. Fortunately, I know how good the bass can sound for a reference point.
> 
> SS


Not sure what sub "bleeding" is? Anyway, you can't have an overlap at 80-120Hz like you say, it is not possible. Regarding channels 7&8, that is only for the INPUT side. The outputs can be configured however you want them. 

To get the bass integrated properly, I would recommend you set up a front 3-way, with no sub, and you two sides. So instead of the two "sub" outputs, you will have FL Low and FR Low. Your mids will become "mids" and your tweets stay "highs". Same crossovers (75/4000). Try it, it should sound better.

Oh, and sides (rears) need to be high passed at 100Hz, no lower!


----------



## 14642

Schnathorst said:


> I believe I potentially found the problem. I currently have the following channel assignments:
> 
> CH1 (MS-8 Amp) - FL Tweet, HP at 4Khz
> CH2 (MS-8 Amp) - FR Tweet, HP at 4Khz
> CH3 (Rockford Amp) - FL Mid, Band-pass at 75hz and 4Khz
> CH4 (Rockford Amp) - FR Mid, Band-pass at 75hz and 4Khz
> CH5 (JL Audio Amp) - Sub, LP at 120Hz
> CH6 (JL Audio Amp) - Sup, LP at 120Hz
> CH7 (Rockford Amp) - RL Coax, HP at 75hz
> CH8 (Rockford Amp) - RR Coax, HP at 75Hz
> 
> I found an installation tips and tricks guide on the JBL website that says I need to use channels 7 and/or 8 for the subs so I'm going to swap my current configuration to align accordingly. I'm also going to change the LP to 80hz to see if that helps tighten the bass response. Something else I found on the installation tips and ticks guide that I thought was interesting is that the sub channel set up (none, 1, 2) does not equal 1 or 2 sub woofers rather it's 1 or 2 subwoofer inputs. Since JL Audio recommends two inputs on the 600/1 V2, I'm going to connect both channels 7 and 8 to the amp and configure the outputs accordingly. I'll let everyone know if this correct my 'bass bleeding' problem. Fortunately, I know how good the bass can sound for a reference point.
> 
> SS


Set the front as 2-way, not 3-way. Please read my previous post CAREFULLY. You cannot overlap if you set it up correctly.


----------



## Schnathorst

Kaigoss,

Nice catch, I didn't notice the installation tips and tricks guide was referring to the input side. I'm glad I caught your post before I made any changes. I'll try Andy's recommendation first:

Andy's Recommendation: Set up Front as Two Way
CH1 (MS-8 Amp) - FL HI, HP at 4000Hz, 24db/oct
CH2 (MS-8 Amp) - FR HI, HP at 4000Hz, 24db/oct
CH3 (Rockford Amp) - FL LO, Band-pass from 80Hz to 4000Hz
CH4 (Rockford Amp) - FR LO, Band-pass from 80Hz to 4000Hz
CH5 (JL Audio Amp) - Sub, LP at 80Hz (subsonic filter at 20Hz, 12dB/oct)
CH6 (JL Audio Amp) - Sub, LP at 80Hz (subsonic filter at 20Hz, 12dB/oct)
CH7 (Rockford Amp) - RL Coax, HP at 100Hz as you suggest
CH8 (Rockford Amp) - RR Coax, HP at 100Hz as you suggest

If this doesn't work, then I'll try your recommendation. If that doesn't work, I'll be back and looking for more insight. As for defining 'bleeding bass' it's that loose thundering boom rather than a tight thump. Before I installed the MS-8 my bass was awesome but I lacked front sound stage. I'm hoping to get the best of both with one of these changes.

Thanks All!
SS


----------



## kaigoss69

Schnathorst said:


> Kaigoss,
> 
> Nice catch, I didn't notice the installation tips and tricks guide was referring to the input side. I'm glad I caught your post before I made any changes. I'll try Andy's recommendation first:
> 
> Andy's Recommendation: Set up Front as Two Way
> CH1 (MS-8 Amp) - FL HI, HP at 4000Hz, 24db/oct
> CH2 (MS-8 Amp) - FR HI, HP at 4000Hz, 24db/oct
> CH3 (Rockford Amp) - FL LO, Band-pass from 80Hz to 4000Hz
> CH4 (Rockford Amp) - FR LO, Band-pass from 80Hz to 4000Hz
> CH5 (JL Audio Amp) - Sub, LP at 80Hz (subsonic filter at 20Hz, 12dB/oct)
> CH6 (JL Audio Amp) - Sub, LP at 80Hz (subsonic filter at 20Hz, 12dB/oct)
> CH7 (Rockford Amp) - RL Coax, HP at 100Hz as you suggest
> CH8 (Rockford Amp) - RR Coax, HP at 100Hz as you suggest
> 
> If this doesn't work, then I'll try your recommendation. If that doesn't work, I'll be back and looking for more insight. As for defining 'bleeding bass' it's that loose thundering boom rather than a tight thump. Before I installed the MS-8 my bass was awesome but I lacked front sound stage. I'm hoping to get the best of both with one of these changes.
> 
> Thanks All!
> SS


Actually, I would leave the sides out for now. Just 2-way front plus the 2 subs. I think that's what Andy recommended. Make sure the sweeps for the sub are not too loud (you should be able to hear them, but not feel them!). Flip the polarity both ways and see how that goes. Usually reverse polarity works better if the sub is in the trunk, at least for me.

If you can't get the sub integrated with the front stage that way, try the 3-way front. That's how I have it set up and it sounds the best. Many others have had success that way too. MS-8 does a better job EQ'ing the sub sweeps that way plus T/A is used.


----------



## thehatedguy

After all of these years, I still don't get why or how that works.


----------



## Elgrosso

thehatedguy said:


> After all of these years, I still don't get why or how that works.


Haha well Too many pages probably, a real burden if you wanna find help.

But good advice from Kaigoss on starting w/o sides, start simple and add later on(you'll enjoy even'more the rears later).
But my 2 cts:
2way + sub is not equal to 3 way including sub... start with Andy's way.


----------



## jon302v8

I was enjoying my MS-8 immensely yesterday (as I have for many years) and I thought I'd drop in to see what is the latest and greatest in car processors. Low and behold the MS-8 is still going strong and Andy is still on here giving support! Congrats to Andy and the designers... what a long life cycle for a tech product!

I recently installed Dirac in my home... Minidsp and Emotiva are bringing Dirac time-domain impulse response correction to home audio (years after I had similar tech in my car!). I read Dirac is working with car OEMs but I don't see any products competing with the MS-8 in the DIY space.

Is the MS-8 still the only game in town for DIY auto-tune?


----------



## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> Actually, I would leave the sides out for now. Just 2-way front plus the 2 subs. I think that's what Andy recommended. Make sure the sweeps for the sub are not too loud (you should be able to hear them, but not feel them!). Flip the polarity both ways and see how that goes. Usually reverse polarity works better if the sub is in the trunk, at least for me.
> 
> If you can't get the sub integrated with the front stage that way, try the 3-way front. That's how I have it set up and it sounds the best. Many others have had success that way too. MS-8 does a better job EQ'ing the sub sweeps that way plus T/A is used.


It works because when you do that, the level matching of the sub, which is sometimes confused by a peaky response from a sealed box is bypassed.


----------



## Lanson

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> It works because when you do that, the level matching of the sub, which is sometimes confused by a peaky response from a sealed box is bypassed.


To add to this, I've discovered my Focus ST's hatch seems to upset the MS-8 a bit, probably for the same reason. The sealed sub is in a large enough box to model out close to .7 Qtc, but the hatch design and cabin volume appears to make for an enormous boost in the response and as a result, some of my calibrations end up making the sub WAY too powerful, and the midbass far too subdued. Re-initializing the setup in a 3-way incl. sub makes for a much smoother response but the bass isn't as defined, again all of this is not a surprise according to what we know through these threads and through playing with the MS-8. In my Flex, though, with its much larger cabin and what I feel to be a much more badass front stage (size and response-wise anyway), it feels like the MS-8 just nails that car perfectly, while with ST I'm still looking for the right combination. It sounds _good_ but there's obvious flaws in the frequency response, relative to my reference point which are my Sennheisers, which closely matches the response of the Flex according to my amateur but experienced ear.


----------



## Savino

Hi all, first of all. I`m from Germany and my english is not very good. Sorry for this  I read a lot in this thread but cant understand everything and didn´t find the answer to my question.
I put last weekend the JBL MS-8 in my Alfa Giulietta with only the serial HU and 8 Front and Rear serial speakers. Perhaps I`m going to add later an Alpine SWE 815 Subwoofer. 
After calibration the sound is good but when I turn on Logic 7 it sounds lower volume. Can anybody explain me what I have to do to get the Logic 7 surround feeling?
BTW I configured the fronts and rears all as 1-way speakers like it is written in the users manual


----------



## Elgrosso

fourthmeal said:


> To add to this, I've discovered my Focus ST's hatch seems to upset the MS-8 a bit, probably for the same reason. The sealed sub is in a large enough box to model out close to .7 Qtc, but the hatch design and cabin volume appears to make for an enormous boost in the response and as a result, some of my calibrations end up making the sub WAY too powerful, and the midbass far too subdued. Re-initializing the setup in a 3-way incl. sub makes for a much smoother response but the bass isn't as defined, again all of this is not a surprise according to what we know through these threads and through playing with the MS-8. In my Flex, though, with its much larger cabin and what I feel to be a much more badass front stage (size and response-wise anyway), it feels like the MS-8 just nails that car perfectly, while with ST I'm still looking for the right combination. It sounds _good_ but there's obvious flaws in the frequency response, relative to my reference point which are my Sennheisers, which closely matches the response of the Flex according to my amateur but experienced ear.


Yep good summary here.
Same for me, I can't stop using L7 so since two years I switch between 2 way + sub or 3 way incl. sub (and rears).
Best soundstage width versus best sub integration.
The effect of full TA on the 3 way front is very minor but perceivable.
The effect on sub is more obvious.
Just need an ms-10!! (or minidsp...)


----------



## FordEscape

Nifty car, Savino, which of course we don't have in North America :-(
First drive: Alfa Giulietta - BBC Top Gear

Don't confuse lower volume with lack of the logic 7 'surround' sound. Logic 7 relegates your side(rear) speakers to only the 'fill' heard bouncing from the back of the room in a 'live' performance, so they will naturally be lower volume than with the unprocessed sound with all channels at relatively high levels (assuming flat Front/Rear fade setting). That makes the overall level lower when in logic 7, all other things being equal. Try Logic 7 "on" and turn up the volume .... it takes a bit to re-educate your ear to the Logic 7 experience sometimes .... try it awhile and then switch back to non logic 7 adjusted to the same volume .... I'll bet you'll then hear and miss the logic 7 'experience'.


----------



## Elgrosso

Savino said:


> Hi all, first of all. I`m from Germany and my english is not very good. Sorry for this  I read a lot in this thread but cant understand everything and didn´t find the answer to my question.
> I put last weekend the JBL MS-8 in my Alfa Giulietta with only the serial HU and 8 Front and Rear serial speakers. Perhaps I`m going to add later an Alpine SWE 815 Subwoofer.
> After calibration the sound is good but when I turn on Logic 7 it sounds lower volume. Can anybody explain me what I have to do to get the Logic 7 surround feeling?
> BTW I configured the fronts and rears all as 1-way speakers like it is written in the users manual


Hi Savino, it's normal, rears will play the same material then front if L7 off, and only out of phase and other stuff when On (search a bit on L7 here).
So you said lower, but is it better?

Edit: FordEscape nailed it


----------



## Schnathorst

Kaigoss and Andy,

I took Andy's advice and changed my XO settings and recalibrated. The bass sounds better but still not as good as it used to with out the MS-8. I think I'm going to try 
the 3 way front with the following settings:

CH1 (MS-8 Amp) - FL Hi, HP at 4000Hz, 24db/oct
CH2 (MS-8 Amp) - FR Hi, HP at 4000Hz, 24db/oct
CH3 (Rockford Amp) - FL Mid, Band-pass from 80Hz to 4000Hz
CH4 (Rockford Amp) - FR Mid, Band-pass from 80Hz to 4000Hz
CH5 (JL Audio Amp) - FL Lo, LP at 80Hz 
CH6 (JL Audio Amp) - FR Lo, LP at 80Hz 
CH7 (Rockford Amp) - RL Coax, HP at 120Hz (raising 20Hz)
CH8 (Rockford Amp) - RR Coax, HP at 120Hz (raising 20Hz)

I'll see if this makes a difference. I thought about reversing the polarity on the sub but it's not in a trunk; it's in the back of my 2003 Tahoe. Besides, it's sounded great before the MS-8. If I do reverse polarity, don't I simply swap the speaker wire + / - connections at the amp or the speaker? 

Something else that confuses me is how to set the gains with an MS-8. The Rockford amp has the CLEAN technology that makes it very easy to set the input and output gains. I tried resetting them last night and the input clipping started where it normally did before the MS-8 so no problem there. However, the output never clipped; in the past it would clip at about 2.5v. The JL Amp is another story, I don't attempt to set the gains on it, I leave the input sensitivity at the lowest because I don't have the equipment or the knowledge to test it. This worked fine before the MS-8, not sure if I should mess with it. Anyway, looks like I just dove head first into the DIY rabbit hole! 

Thanks Again for the Help,
SS


----------



## 14642

In logic7, the rear speakers play only ambient information rather than standard stereo. that reduces the overall volume of sound, but should enhance the front image.


----------



## 14642

Schnathorst said:


> Kaigoss and Andy,
> 
> I took Andy's advice and changed my XO settings and recalibrated. The bass sounds better but still not as good as it used to with out the MS-8. I think I'm going to try
> the 3 way front with the following settings:
> 
> CH1 (MS-8 Amp) - FL Hi, HP at 4000Hz, 24db/oct
> CH2 (MS-8 Amp) - FR Hi, HP at 4000Hz, 24db/oct
> CH3 (Rockford Amp) - FL Mid, Band-pass from 80Hz to 4000Hz
> CH4 (Rockford Amp) - FR Mid, Band-pass from 80Hz to 4000Hz
> CH5 (JL Audio Amp) - FL Lo, LP at 80Hz
> CH6 (JL Audio Amp) - FR Lo, LP at 80Hz
> CH7 (Rockford Amp) - RL Coax, HP at 120Hz (raising 20Hz)
> CH8 (Rockford Amp) - RR Coax, HP at 120Hz (raising 20Hz)
> 
> I'll see if this makes a difference. I thought about reversing the polarity on the sub but it's not in a trunk; it's in the back of my 2003 Tahoe. Besides, it's sounded great before the MS-8. If I do reverse polarity, don't I simply swap the + / - connections at the amp or the speaker?
> 
> Something else that confuses me is how to set the gains with an MS-8. The Rockford amp has the CLEAN technology that makes it very easy to set the input and output gains. I tried resetting them last night and the input clipping started where it normally did before the MS-8 so no problem there. However, the output never clipped; in the past it would clip at about 2.5v. The JL Amp is another story, I don't attempt to set the gains on it, I leave the input sensitivity at the lowest because I don't have the equipment or the knowledge to test it. This worked fine before the MS-8, not sure if I should mess with it. Anyway, looks like I just dove head first into the DIY rabbit hole!
> 
> Thanks Again for the Help,
> SS


For gain setting, just look in the manual at estimate where you think 2V is on the potentiometer's rotation. Don't worry about all the fancy gain setting crap.


----------



## DDfusion

I've had my MS-8 in for about a week and I'm about fed up.
Ford sync
MS-8
DD SS4A
DD M1C
HSK XLs active front 75-3500 -24db
DD SW2808sc ported in trunk 25hz -24db

At first I had the MS-8 powering stock rear doors. I figured out that was killing my output after I took them off. With L7 on my center was way to the passenger side.

My output has improved but its nowhere near what it was in my last car where I had the same level of install with a bit less power. The stage is more center but I'm not getting the separation I had with the rear fill and L7. Gains on the SS4 are close to what I think is 2v on the mids and a bit less on the tweeters, I cant go any higher. I calibrated at -40 and leave it at -6. 

Now my biggest issue.. I have to cut 3db from 600-800hz to get the bad break up distortion out of my passenger mid. 

Also I tend to get to much bass at low volume so I have to back down my sub gain a bit to fix it. My voltage needs work as I just found out after testing but my sub is getting very warm if I put any power to it. It should be able to handle its amp on most music. 

I run sync at volume 22 out of 30 but it doesn't seem to be good for every song, some has to drop to 19.


----------



## Savino

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> In logic7, the rear speakers play only ambient information rather than standard stereo. that reduces the overall volume of sound, but should enhance the front image.


OK, so this morning I tried it with Logic 7 on, turned it as loud as I used to hear without it and it seem a little bit clearer and wider but less dynamic and on some mp3 tracks there were some strange sound issues 
Maybe I have to calibrate it one more time?


----------



## kaigoss69

Savino said:


> OK, so this morning I tried it with Logic 7 on, turned it as loud as I used to hear without it and it seem a little bit clearer and wider but less dynamic and on some mp3 tracks there were some strange sound issues
> Maybe I have to calibrate it one more time?


If you have low-quality source material, then you can have some weird sounds coming from the rear speakers. This is due to Logic 7 processing, it sends out-of-phase material to the rears. 

P.S. I was born in Wuppertal!


----------



## Savino

kaigoss69 said:


> If you have low-quality source material, then you can have some weird sounds coming from the rear speakers. This is due to Logic 7 processing, it sends out-of-phase material to the rears.
> 
> P.S. I was born in Wuppertal!


OMG the world is such a small place 

OK, I had this issues on the left rear and the right front speaker. I think I will try to callibrate it one more time to see if something is changing


----------



## Elgrosso

You can also play with the fader/l7 to get an idea of what's going on.
There's a bunch of tracks listed here with good content for this.
Usually I play with some Afro-jazz, don't know why but they seem to master this well, great effect!


----------



## Lanson

Yep, low quality recordings sound pretty bad with L7, try turning it off. L7 off with the MS-8 still sounds really good, good music or bad. Really poorly recorded music probably should be left out of the rotation. 

With ALL the MS-8 installs and calibrations I've ever done, I've always had to bump the midbass a good 5-6dB in the 63-125 hz range, in a simple parabolic curve up and back down. This ends up bringing the "life" back to the music. Also, even if your front speakers can technically dig deep down to the 70hz range, try calibrating higher. Also, don't be afraid to try a more shallow slope with that. 

I will also say this: The MS-8 really does wonders with E.D.M. music, provided that music was made with enough "space" in the recording, and the DJ has a good grip on ambient features. It also keeps the intensity of the music on the front stage, instead of deferring to the subs, again provided you have your crossovers and sub volume set so the front stage takes precedence. I DO wish there was an MS-10 or something but Andy has moved on to bigger and froggier things so I'm not sure Harman would be up for making it.


----------



## DDfusion

DDfusion said:


> I've had my MS-8 in for about a week and I'm about fed up.
> Ford sync
> MS-8
> DD SS4A
> DD M1C
> HSK XLs active front 75-3500 -24db
> DD SW2808sc ported in trunk 25hz -24db
> 
> At first I had the MS-8 powering stock rear doors. I figured out that was killing my output after I took them off. With L7 on my center was way to the passenger side.
> 
> My output has improved but its nowhere near what it was in my last car where I had the same level of install with a bit less power. The stage is more center but I'm not getting the separation I had with the rear fill and L7. Gains on the SS4 are close to what I think is 2v on the mids and a bit less on the tweeters, I cant go any higher. I calibrated at -40 and leave it at -6.
> 
> Now my biggest issue.. I have to cut 3db from 600-800hz to get the bad break up distortion out of my passenger mid.
> 
> Also I tend to get to much bass at low volume so I have to back down my sub gain a bit to fix it. My voltage needs work as I just found out after testing but my sub is getting very warm if I put any power to it. It should be able to handle its amp on most music.
> 
> I run sync at volume 22 out of 30 but it doesn't seem to be good for every song, some has to drop to 19.



Bumping my post. 

I backed my source volume down and raised the MS-8 volume. Results are getting better but I'm still cutting a lot of midrange to keep distortion out of the right front mid.


----------



## DDfusion

This is what I have to do to clean it up and still keep it balanced.


----------



## Lanson

If I had to guess, I'd say 75hz is too low for the speakers, but I'm not there with you to gauge the install, the deadening and sealing process, etc., But if you started at 80hz, that's usually a great place to begin. 

Also, I had a pair of Silver Flutes in my build prior, and they had a lot of "honk" in the sound, the midrange. When I upgraded from that to a pair of Audio Development W600 mids, that tone disappeared completely and the clarity and detail improved dramatically. So sometimes its the speakers themselves, and the MS-8 can't compensate. I never liked a single Hertz speaker I listened to but I haven't heard them all, so I can't comment definitively what's going for you. 

Have you tried listening to the system with processing all-off, and then fiddle with the EQ?


----------



## DDfusion

fourthmeal said:


> If I had to guess, I'd say 75hz is too low for the speakers, but I'm not there with you to gauge the install, the deadening and sealing process, etc., But if you started at 80hz, that's usually a great place to begin.
> 
> Also, I had a pair of Silver Flutes in my build prior, and they had a lot of "honk" in the sound, the midrange. When I upgraded from that to a pair of Audio Development W600 mids, that tone disappeared completely and the clarity and detail improved dramatically. So sometimes its the speakers themselves, and the MS-8 can't compensate. I never liked a single Hertz speaker I listened to but I haven't heard them all, so I can't comment definitively what's going for you.
> 
> Have you tried listening to the system with processing all-off, and then fiddle with the EQ?


I have not turned processing off. 
I never had a issue with the 80prs in the last car and I could drive the mids to ridicules output levels. That was also a 3 way setup with ZR800s but it shouldn't matter for what I'm getting now. The 800s cut off way before where I'm getting break up now. I got it pretty good now, I guess I'm expecting to much out of a SQ minded setup. Last car was a 150db ground pounder but it has a great front stage.


----------



## t3sn4f2

DDfusion said:


> This is what I have to do to clean it up and still keep it balanced.


----------



## DDfusion

t3sn4f2 said:


>




Lol my bad. You get the point


----------



## DDfusion

I pre EQed it and calibrated again. It's better but I lost some output. I think I can live with it now. 

I think I'm expecting everything to sound like reference music


----------



## Schnathorst

fourthmeal said:


> With ALL the MS-8 installs and calibrations I've ever done, I've always had to bump the midbass a good 5-6dB in the 63-125 hz range, in a simple parabolic curve up and back down. This ends up bringing the "life" back to the music. Also, even if your front speakers can technically dig deep down to the 70hz range, try calibrating higher. Also, don't be afraid to try a more shallow slope with that.


This is my first experience with an MS-8 and this is exactly what I had to do to get some of the bump and mid-bass back. I had to research frequency ranges and EQ settings to know this and it was a good learning experience. Can people post some of the best recording they've used to fine tune their systems?

Thanks,
SS


----------



## DDfusion

Exact opposite for me. I had to much mid bass. I had to cut it 1.5-3db


----------



## Schnathorst

fourthmeal said:


> If I had to guess, I'd say 75hz is too low for the speakers, but I'm not there with you to gauge the install, the deadening and sealing process, etc., But if you started at 80hz, that's usually a great place to begin.
> 
> Have you tried listening to the system with processing all-off, and then fiddle with the EQ?


I found this to be true with my set up. I tried crossing over my JL Audio C3-600's at 60, 70, 75, and 80Hz. I ended up using 80Hz because I heard a lot of distortion at 60 and some noise at 70 and 75. 

Similarly, I've tried listening to the system with L7 and TA turned off and it sounds horrible. The tweeters dominate and my system doesn't sound anything like it did prior to the MS-8. Is it normal for the system to sound really bad with L7 and TA turned off?

SS


----------



## Elgrosso

Schnathorst said:


> I found this to be true with my set up. I tried crossing over my JL Audio C3-600's at 60, 70, 75, and 80Hz. I ended up using 80Hz because I heard a lot of distortion at 60 and some noise at 70 and 75.
> 
> Similarly, I've tried listening to the system with L7 and TA turned off and it sounds horrible. The tweeters dominate and my system doesn't sound anything like it did prior to the MS-8. Is it normal for the system to sound really bad with L7 and TA turned off?
> 
> SS


L7 off will pull the stage behind, so you should fade everything front in the same time.
But TA off (and EQ off) will sound awfull for sure. Just the xo will be applied.
If you have very strong tweeters with dsp off, then your levels are not good enough.


----------



## Elgrosso

Schnathorst said:


> This is my first experience with an MS-8 and this is exactly what I had to do to get some of the bump and mid-bass back. I had to research frequency ranges and EQ settings to know this and it was a good learning experience. Can people post some of the best recording they've used to fine tune their systems?
> 
> Thanks,
> SS


Different for me, I don't EQ anymore for this, I had best results by playing with levels (if sub on his own channel).


----------



## Schnathorst

DDfusion said:


> Exact opposite for me. I had to much mid bass. I had to cut it 1.5-3db


I believe mid bass is the 80 - 225Hz range, mid range is 225Hz - 1kHz. I may be wrong. None the less, it goes to show what a difference the vehicle makes too.

SS


----------



## Schnathorst

Elgrosso said:


> L7 off will pull the stage behind, so you should fade everything front in the same time.
> But TA off (and EQ off) will sound awfull for sure. Just the xo will be applied.
> If you have very strong tweeters with dsp off, then your levels are not good enough.


You described it exactly! With the L7 off the rears dominate and I have to fade forward. However, the sub bass and mid bass are much tighter. I think the very strong tweets come from the fact that I'm running them off the MS-8 while everything else runs off separate amps. 

I've considered putting the tweets and front mids back on the passive XO's that came with the C3-600's and running them off the external amp. What do you think this would do? Would it throw of TA and harm the front stage?

SS


----------



## DDfusion

Schnathorst said:


> I believe mid bass is the 80 - 225Hz range, mid range is 225Hz - 1kHz. I may be wrong. None the less, it goes to show what a difference the vehicle makes too.
> 
> SS


I've had to cut 63-2k. More in the 600hz range.


----------



## Elgrosso

Schnathorst said:


> You described it exactly! With the L7 off the rears dominate and I have to fade forward. However, the sub bass and mid bass are much tighter. I think the very strong tweets come from the fact that I'm running them off the MS-8 while everything else runs off separate amps.
> 
> I've considered putting the tweets and front mids back on the passive XO's that came with the C3-600's and running them off the external amp. What do you think this would do? Would it throw of TA and harm the front stage?
> 
> SS


Sub tighter with L7 off, that's strange. It should not have any effect, maybe it's just a feeling.
I mean we know L7 creates ambiance, so everything is slightly less detailed/focused since you have sound all around.
Without L7 (and no rear at all) everything is in front, easier to spot what's going on.
Cleaner, but sometime a bit boring (sometime only).
Well at least in my car...

I don't remember your setup, 2 way front?
Using the JL xo will help you to level match but yes will hurt the stage. But you can quickly try, just to get an idea.
Tweeters on ms8 should work fine, it's curious they're louder.
Maybe super sensitive/on axis/close to your head?


----------



## Schnathorst

Elgrosso said:


> I don't remember your setup, 2 way front?
> Using the JL xo will help you to level match but yes will hurt the stage. But you can quickly try, just to get an idea.
> Tweeters on ms8 should work fine, it's curious they're louder.
> Maybe super sensitive/on axis/close to your head?


Yes, 2 way front with the tweeters mounted on the A pillars slightly facing the window but more towards each other. There could be some gain from 'splashing' off the front window. 

SS


----------



## kaigoss69

I found that most of the issues with the auto tune are due to level-matching. The processor only has so much digital headroom, and it can easily run out of steam and end up with an "unfinished" curve.

Here's what I think. When you set up the crossovers you assign different passbands to different speakers. Most speakers will have substantial peaks and dips in their FR within those passbands, and the first course of correction, to get the FR of all the speakers combined as close as possible to the target curve, is level setting. After that, it's EQ for the "fine tuning". I think the processor has enough digital headroom to make all those corrections, level and EQ, for most set-ups, BUT the sweeps are full range, and the level-setting algorithm "looks" in pre-determined frequency ranges, which have nothing to do with how you set your crossovers, and that's when the levels can be set incorrectly.

For example, my midbass is set-up to play between 55 and 100Hz (24 dB/oct slope). However, the MS-8 level-setting algorithm looks for the response between 80 and 300Hz (my numbers could be off, but it is only an example to make a point). If I play full range pink noise through that speaker, it is fairly flat between 55 and 100, but it has a sizeable peak at 300Hz (about 6-8 dB from what I remember). So, the processor sets the level of the midbass according to the peak at 300Hz, i.e. it lowers the level 6-8 dB too much. Then, the EQ will try to compensate, but it runs out of steam and the result is weak midbass.

Now, if I engage the LPF on my midbass amp, and set it at 250Hz, it will chop-off that peak at 300Hz. As soon as I do that, and recalibrate, the midbass response is greatly improved! 

Similarly, the sub response often has a huge peak somewhere in the 50-80Hz range, especially if a small sealed box is used. You can "tame" the peak using the amp's LPF. It works, as I have tried it.

Goes to show that sometimes you have to trick the processor to get the best results. I firmly believe that the auto-tune could have been improved immensely, and made more bulletproof. Unfortunately, JBL never made an attempt to improve the product - and I think most of the improvements could have been done through Firmware.

I'm sure Andy will correct me if any of the above is just pure BS.


----------



## Elgrosso

kaigoss69 said:


> I found that most of the issues with the auto tune are due to level-matching. The processor only has so much digital headroom, and it can easily run out of steam and end up with an "unfinished" curve.
> 
> Here's what I think. When you set up the crossovers you assign different passbands to different speakers. Most speakers will have substantial peaks and dips in their FR within those passbands, and the first course of correction, to get the FR of all the speakers combined as close as possible to the target curve, is level setting. After that, it's EQ for the "fine tuning". I think the processor has enough digital headroom to make all those corrections, level and EQ, for most set-ups, BUT the sweeps are full range, and the level-setting algorithm "looks" in pre-determined frequency ranges, which have nothing to do with how you set your crossovers, and that's when the levels can be set incorrectly.
> 
> For example, my midbass is set-up to play between 55 and 100Hz (24 dB/oct slope). However, the MS-8 level-setting algorithm looks for the response between 80 and 300Hz (my numbers could be off, but it is only an example to make a point). If I play full range pink noise through that speaker, it is fairly flat between 55 and 100, but it has a sizeable peak at 300Hz (about 6-8 dB from what I remember). So, the processor sets the level of the midbass according to the peak at 300Hz, i.e. it lowers the level 6-8 dB too much. Then, the EQ will try to compensate, but it runs out of steam and the result is weak midbass.
> 
> Now, if I engage the LPF on my midbass amp, and set it at 250Hz, it will chop-off that peak at 300Hz. As soon as I do that, and recalibrate, the midbass response is greatly improved!
> 
> Similarly, the sub response often has a huge peak somewhere in the 50-80Hz range, especially if a small sealed box is used. You can "tame" the peak using the amp's LPF. It works, as I have tried it.
> 
> Goes to show that sometimes you have to trick the processor to get the best results. I firmly believe that the auto-tune could have been improved immensely, and made more bulletproof. Unfortunately, JBL never made an attempt to improve the product - and I think most of the improvements could have been done through Firmware.
> 
> I'm sure Andy will correct me if any of the above is just pure BS.


Yeah this looks like a perfect translation of what I had in mind (in french ).
I experienced this too! That's why I went to REW


----------



## thehatedguy

You are only playing your midbass for less than half an octave?


----------



## kaigoss69

thehatedguy said:


> You are only playing your midbass for less than half an octave?


Well, it's almost a full octave, but who's counting? 

It's all about having each set of speakers play in their optimal FR.


----------



## DDfusion

Anyone near Pensacola Florida to help me get this right? I got a nice rack cover waiting to go on. 

I think I might be swapping out the Hertz for a more neutral German DD.


----------



## Schnathorst

kaigoss69 said:


> I found that most of the issues with the auto tune are due to level-matching. The processor only has so much digital headroom, and it can easily run out of steam and end up with an "unfinished" curve.
> 
> Here's what I think. When you set up the crossovers you assign different passbands to different speakers. Most speakers will have substantial peaks and dips in their FR within those passbands, and the first course of correction, to get the FR of all the speakers combined as close as possible to the target curve, is level setting. After that, it's EQ for the "fine tuning". I think the processor has enough digital headroom to make all those corrections, level and EQ, for most set-ups, BUT the sweeps are full range, and the level-setting algorithm "looks" in pre-determined frequency ranges, which have nothing to do with how you set your crossovers, and that's when the levels can be set incorrectly.
> 
> For example, my midbass is set-up to play between 55 and 100Hz (24 dB/oct slope). However, the MS-8 level-setting algorithm looks for the response between 80 and 300Hz (my numbers could be off, but it is only an example to make a point). If I play full range pink noise through that speaker, it is fairly flat between 55 and 100, but it has a sizeable peak at 300Hz (about 6-8 dB from what I remember). So, the processor sets the level of the midbass according to the peak at 300Hz, i.e. it lowers the level 6-8 dB too much. Then, the EQ will try to compensate, but it runs out of steam and the result is weak midbass.
> 
> Now, if I engage the LPF on my midbass amp, and set it at 250Hz, it will chop-off that peak at 300Hz. As soon as I do that, and recalibrate, the midbass response is greatly improved!
> 
> Similarly, the sub response often has a huge peak somewhere in the 50-80Hz range, especially if a small sealed box is used. You can "tame" the peak using the amp's LPF. It works, as I have tried it.
> 
> Goes to show that sometimes you have to trick the processor to get the best results. I firmly believe that the auto-tune could have been improved immensely, and made more bulletproof. Unfortunately, JBL never made an attempt to improve the product - and I think most of the improvements could have been done through Firmware.
> 
> I'm sure Andy will correct me if any of the above is just pure BS.


After a couple days of tinkering, here's my current configuration in my 2003 Tahoe:

Two Way Front
CH1 (MS-8 Amp) - FL Hi, JL Audio C3-600 Tweet, HP at 3.5kHz
CH2 (MS-8 Amp) - FR Hi, JL Audio C3-600 Tweet, HP at 3.5kHz
CH3 (Rockford Amp) - FL Lo, C3-600 Mid, Band-passed at 80Hz and 3.5kHz
CH4 (Rockford Amp) - FR Lo, C3-600 Mid, Band-passed at 80Hz and 3.5kHz

One Ported Subwoofer 
CH5 (JL Audio Amp) - Sub, JL Audio HO110-w6v3, LP at 80Hz
CH6 (JL Audio Amp) - Not used

One Way Rear
CH7 (Rockford Amp) - SL, JL Audio C-3600 Coax with passives, HP at 120Hz
CH8 (Rockford Amp) - SR, JL Audio C-3600 Coax with passives, HP at 120Hz

I have L7 and TA on and I've fine tuned the 31 band EQ. I have an awesome front stage now and the punch of the bass and mid bass is better than the initial install. I've noticed that the recording I'm playing makes a huge difference. Are you recommending I activate the active crossovers on the amplifier to help the MS-8? It's really easy to do, just not sure what to expect.

SS


----------



## Lanson

The only crossover I'd activate above and beyond the Ms-8 is if: you have to have more than one speaker "share" an MS-8 channel, ie: for a mid and tweeter running either passive, or active via amp controls. OR, if you want to put a crossover that protects the tweeters from inadvertent turn-on pop. It would be better to use a passive cap in this case, but a low level highpass could prevent an accidental pop at full-range from hitting the tweeter if you have it on the amp.

Other than that, using additional crossovers may very well put a hole in your response.



Schnathorst said:


> After a couple days of tinkering, here's my current configuration in my 2003 Tahoe:
> 
> Two Way Front
> CH1 (MS-8 Amp) - FL Hi, JL Audio C3-600 Tweet, HP at 3.5kHz
> CH2 (MS-8 Amp) - FR Hi, JL Audio C3-600 Tweet, HP at 3.5kHz
> CH3 (Rockford Amp) - FL Lo, C3-600 Mid, Band-passed at 80Hz and 3.5kHz
> CH4 (Rockford Amp) - FR Lo, C3-600 Mid, Band-passed at 80Hz and 3.5kHz
> 
> One Ported Subwoofer
> CH5 (JL Audio Amp) - Sub, JL Audio HO110-w6v3, LP at 80Hz
> CH6 (JL Audio Amp) - Not used
> 
> One Way Rear
> CH7 (Rockford Amp) - SL, JL Audio C-3600 Coax with passives, HP at 120Hz
> CH8 (Rockford Amp) - SR, JL Audio C-3600 Coax with passives, HP at 120Hz
> 
> I have L7 and TA on and I've fine tuned the 31 band EQ. I have an awesome front stage now and the punch of the bass and mid bass is better than the initial install. I've noticed that the recording I'm playing makes a huge difference. Are you recommending I activate the active crossovers on the amplifier to help the MS-8? It's really easy to do, just not sure what to expect.
> 
> SS


----------



## Schnathorst

fourthmeal said:


> The only crossover I'd activate above and beyond the Ms-8 is if: you have to have more than one speaker "share" an MS-8 channel, ie: for a mid and tweeter running either passive, or active via amp controls. OR, if you want to put a crossover that protects the tweeters from inadvertent turn-on pop. It would be better to use a passive cap in this case, but a low level highpass could prevent an accidental pop at full-range from hitting the tweeter if you have it on the amp.
> 
> Other than that, using additional crossovers may very well put a hole in your response.


Cool, thanks for the clarification and advice. I'll leave as is. 

SS


----------



## 1lowlife

Well I checked my speaker polarities today with DMM to make sure the positive at the source was the positive at the speaker.
All were good.
Although I also checked my input and one pair was measuring plus with the red of the meter on the white of the MS-8 harness and the other was measuring minus.
So I thought one might be wrong and I swapped it out.

The system doesn't sound any better after a few calibrations, although there is a thunderstorm going on.
After every calibration the sound is kinda all over the place..
I still don't have decent volume levels, turning the HU up halfway to get an average starting point.
That is calibrating with the amps at zero gain and the MS-8 at 35, then turning the MS-8 to 05 or 00 after the calibration..
Listening to a CD to test.

I can do the same setting on an audio calibration and end up with different results.
One will have no bass, another will have a ton of bass.
One will sound almost decent, the other sound like crapola..

Man this thing is a PITA...


----------



## thehatedguy

For the guys using the factory decks, are you using or not using the setup CD everytime you do a calibration?


----------



## Elgrosso

Schnathorst said:


> Cool, thanks for the clarification and advice. I'll leave as is.
> 
> SS


Sure it's usually better not to "double" them, but re-read previous Kaigoss' post, in certain cases it helps a lot.
For protection I usually have 12db at the FS for mids and tweeters (no cap), sometime 6db, that can also be used for some combo (I had 12/18db between mid/tweeters for a while).


----------



## 1lowlife

Wow did I screw up changing that input..
Now when the L7 is active, the entire system sounds like the rear speakers used to.
It cuts in and out, fluctuates, and sounds like crap..
Turn the L7 off and it sounds normal.
Going to change it back tomorrow or Sunday..

I tried Andy's advice on just calibrating the fronts and subs at first, and it sounded fairly mormal.
I then added the center and rear and it when to sh!te..

I calibrate once and the bass is there, but muddy/muffled.
I calibrate again with the same setting and the bass is gone..

WTF..


----------



## 1lowlife

thehatedguy said:


> For the guys using the factory decks, are you using or not using the setup CD everytime you do a calibration?


I don't...


----------



## thehatedguy

You should.


----------



## 1lowlife

thehatedguy said:


> You should.


Why?
I do it at the HU setting of 49, lowest acceptable input level and I do it a 63 (max volume but still acceptable) and it in the end it doesn't sound any different.

I usually reset the entire system when I make drastic changes like I did today.
That kinda forces one to use the disc for initial setup.

Even tough I've read that input polarity is fixed by the MS-8, when I swapped one of the inputs today, it made the entire system fluctuate like the rears used to on L7.
I'm going to wire it back the way it was, when it sounded ****ty.
Right now it sounds extra ****ty.

I've checked and triple checked every connection in my entire system.
In between the HU to the MS-8, there are only 4 wires for that.
I've checked my speaker and RCA cables, they are fine.
And today I pulled 4 door panels and the center speaker grill and physically checked each and every speaker wire for polarity and continuity and they all checked out fine.

How is it that I can do the same calibration, with the same settings, and get two drastically different results?
One will have too much bass, one will have NO bass.
One will sound OK, one will sound like a transistor radio.

Am I on my second bad MS-8?
I'm going to have a hard time convincing sonicelectronix that they sent me 2 bad units....
If i have something wired wrong, I'll be God Dammed to what it is.
I've gone over this thing many times with the same results as far as wiring.
I changed the inputs today because I'm running out of possibilities..

I've yet to get the mind blowing awesome sound out of this thing that I read about...
And even with what I did today, the sweeps of calibration sound better than any thing that the HU puts out, be it FM, XM, CD, iPhone, anything.

I'm spending way too much time trying to make this MS-8 work with NO progress.
And I can't find any shop in Dallas Texas to look at it for me...

Even if I decide to get rid of it and sonicelectronix won't take it back, Ill trash it.
I can't resell it not knowing if it works properly or not.

Anyone have a suggestion for a good DSP that doesn't need a laptop to program?


----------



## Elgrosso

i'll buy it


----------



## 1lowlife

Elgrosso said:


> i'll buy it


That literally made me laugh out loud.....
Thanks for that..

I really want to make this MS-8 work for me.
I'm not quite ready to give up on it, but I'll certainly keep you in mind....

There has to be a simple problem or explanation to why this thing is not working for me.
I've bought great speakers, and nice sub, a decent 5 channel amp, but i just can't get this MS-8 setup.

I still can't figure out why it cut my output volume in half.
As I've stated here a few times, there is a guy on my Tundra forum that has the same basic setup I have and he loves it.
Same stock HU, same year, make, model of truck, almost the same Alpine amp, decent speakers, decent sub..
He rarely turns his volume up past 30, I go to 30 just to get started.

Every calibration I do leaves the system sounding flat and lacking.
And now with the L7 fluctuating in every speaker, I don't know how that happened.
The whole system sounds like the rears used to sound when I isolated them..
And the rears and center run off the MS-8, everything else (2 way front and sub) runs off the 5 channel amp.
Maybe another total reset tomorrow...


----------



## DDfusion

thehatedguy said:


> For the guys using the factory decks, are you using or not using the setup CD everytime you do a calibration?


Yes I am

I got sync updated today to the new firm ware. Guess what? Now it has some kind of noise on USB and CD. It gets covered up at volume 2 but I still hear something. Doesn't have noise on FM. Weird and very annoying.


----------



## 1lowlife

Perhaps I did fix the input polarity yesterday..

OK, I think I'm narrowing this down..
This morning I did a total reset, and calibrated each component with these results:

Re-calibrated everything each time, audio with the disc (which my new lowest setting is 46), alignment, everything.
Amps set a nominal 2V, MS-8 at 35.

Just the Front components hi and mids - same old general flat dull sound
Just the rears - sounded pretty damn good 
Front mids and center - WOW I got my volume back 35 was loud only turned the MS-8 up to 10 after the calibration. I could do some tweaking and make it work.
Front mids, center, rears - good volume, workable sound
Front mids, center , rears, sub - good volume, workable sound
Front tweeters, front mids, center, rears, subs - not as loud, back to a flat sound.

I think my tweeters are the problem.
I'm beginning to wonder if I blew or damaged them when I had the LC6i hooked up, even though I was using the focal passive crossover.

I'll ask a stupid question, how do I know if my tweeter is blown?

I think I'm finally getting somewhere here....
Thanks for putting up with me..


----------



## thehatedguy

I had the best results calibrating the sub at a volume level that you could easy talk over...it wasn't very loud at all.

When it was done, it was deep and full...and all anchored in front.


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> I had the best results calibrating the sub at a volume level that you could easy talk over...it wasn't very loud at all.
> 
> When it was done, it was deep and full...and all anchored in front.


You've got your MS-8 up and running now? 

Kelvin


----------



## thehatedguy

Not the new one.

That's how I did it in the last install. The only time that I had problems with the bass was when I was calibrating with the sub level too high. I couldn't tell you exactly how loud that sweep was, but it wasn't loud...you couldn't hear it finish.

I never had problems with output. My output limitations were due to using a planar midrange. It wasn't as loud as my horn installs, but it did pretty good considering a planar midrange playing to 7 or 800 hertz.


----------



## DDfusion

I'm going to try to calibrate it one more time. 

I have 160 x 4 I need 150 for the mids and 75 for the tweeters. Do I set all gains at 1/2?


----------



## percy072

thehatedguy said:


> I had the best results calibrating the sub at a volume level that you could easy talk over...it wasn't very loud at all.
> 
> When it was done, it was deep and full...and all anchored in front.


Are you refering to gain settings before doing a calibration?? I found I have to set my sub gain higher (approx 0.1V) and the rest @ 2V...run the calibration sweep and then dial the sub gain back to around 2.5-3V to get a nice blend...otherwise I was swamped with subwoofer 

I was thinking this was because I had the sub on a 4 ch amp (bridged) but I just put in a 5 ch amp and still had to do the same pre/post calibration game with the sub gain


----------



## thehatedguy

I did the opposite because I had a remote level control for the sub. When I did the sweeps, the sub was barely heard.


----------



## percy072

1lowlife;2351898I said:


> think my tweeters are the problem.
> I'm beginning to wonder if I blew or damaged them when I had the LC6i hooked up, even though I was using the focal passive crossover.
> 
> I'll ask a stupid question, how do I know if my tweeter is blown?
> 
> I think I'm finally getting somewhere here....
> Thanks for putting up with me..


You could Ohm out the tweeters with a DMM and see if they are in spec.

FWIW...I was not impressed with this thing at first either, but the more time I spent fittering around ie:multiple calibrations, adj gains, try this, try that... I'm now actually pretty happy with the results. 

If all else fails, do this with it...

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=...=GritU3kmfdS7aCSsSFaphA&bvm=bv.91665533,d.cWc


----------



## DDfusion

I calibrated it AGAIN. Fronts sound good but it's still sub heavy. Fronts where set around 2v the sub was set around 3v-4v. It's just a 8 in a trunk


----------



## percy072

DDfusion said:


> I calibrated it AGAIN. Fronts sound good but it's still sub heavy. Fronts where set around 2v the sub was set around 3v-4v. It's just a 8 in a trunk





percy072 said:


> I found I have to set my sub gain higher (approx 0.1V) and the rest @ 2V...run the calibration sweep and then dial the sub gain back to around 2.5-3V to get a nice blend...otherwise I was swamped with subwoofer


^this trick works for me...if the sub is "quiet" during the tone sweep, the ms-8 will boost it after calibration (I think)


----------



## DDfusion

percy072 said:


> ^this trick works for me...if the sub is "quiet" during the tone sweep, the ms-8 will boost it after calibration (I think)


I'll try that. How is your electrical holding up with the PCM?


----------



## DDfusion

percy072 said:


> ^this trick works for me...if the sub is "quiet" during the tone sweep, the ms-8 will boost it after calibration (I think)


I just backed the sub level down on the display until it faded in. Still strong but more balanced.


----------



## percy072

DDfusion said:


> I'll try that. How is your electrical holding up with the PCM?


Do you mean any integration issues with Sync? So far everything is seamless, nav, chimes, voice commands all work as well as before the install...



DDfusion said:


> I just backed the sub level down on the display until it faded in. Still strong but more balanced.


I tried that too with limited improvement...found adjusting the gains before and after calibration did the trick (for me) 

Also, I got around to mounting the remote sub level control that came with my new amp and it works great...very handy. Still discovering little tricks with this MS-8...the irony being I bought it hoping to not have to constantly mess with the DSP.


----------



## DDfusion

Same here. I didn't get the bit ten because I didn't want to tweak it every day. 


I was talking about your voltage. Our PCM cuts off the alternator when it feels it's been on long enough. I'm waiting on Singer to get back with me about a HO and bypass


----------



## percy072

DDfusion said:


> I was talking about your voltage. Our PCM cuts off the alternator when it feels it's been on long enough. I'm waiting on Singer to get back with me about a HO and bypass


Really???...Had no idea about that, but so far have not had any issues other than the annoying "timed out shut off" when making adjustments, even with a trickle charger on the battery. Or is that what your referring to?

I should send you a PM as this is a bit off topic...but I'm curious about this PCM issue.



percy072 said:


> Still discovering little tricks with this MS-8...the irony being I bought it hoping to not have to constantly mess with the DSP.


I should clarify...the MS-8 itself is a great product, it's all the little work-arounds with the initial setting up, tricks, minor adjustments etc I had to experiment with to let the MS-8 really shine. I'm sure any laptop based DSP would drive me nuts...beyond my experience and patience.


----------



## Jperez

Hello everyone I just had an ms 8 installed in my car a week ago and a have some questions. At what volume do I set my gains to on the ms8?


----------



## brumledb

Is there any issue with using RCA outputs for some channels and speaker level outputs for others? 

Example: I have a 4 channel amp and mono amp. I would run my front midbass and tweeters off of channel 1-4 on MS8 which would connect to amp via RCA's. Since I do not have any more amplified channels for rear fill speakers, can I connect them to channel 5 and 6 directly to speaker level outputs on MS8 so I can use the MS8's amplifier? Then obviously would put subs on channel 7 or 8 and use RCA from MS8 to amp.


----------



## DDfusion

brumledb said:


> Is there any issue with using RCA outputs for some channels and speaker level outputs for others?
> 
> Example: I have a 4 channel amp and mono amp. I would run my front midbass and tweeters off of channel 1-4 on MS8 which would connect to amp via RCA's. Since I do not have any more amplified channels for rear fill speakers, can I connect them to channel 5 and 6 directly to speaker level outputs on MS8 so I can use the MS8's amplifier? Then obviously would put subs on channel 7 or 8 and use RCA from MS8 to amp.




That's what I'm doing and it's all good.


----------



## Bluenote

Post Calibration Q: If you're using a MiniDsp to consolidate channels for a 3way - say MR / TW... Can still use the parametric Or graphic on the Mini to fine tune? It seems like overlap with the MS8 graphic, but accessing those seems to bring a big advantage to the fine tuning.


----------



## thehatedguy

You could, and it would be fine.

I might would suggest using the Minidsps to do your grunt EQing- to fix any major problems and get everything roughed in. That's how I envisioned using them in a situation similar to yours.


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> You could, and it would be fine.
> 
> I might would suggest using the Minidsps to do your grunt EQing- to fix any major problems and get everything roughed in. That's how I envisioned using them in a situation similar to yours.


HEY, DON'T CHEAT!!!!! YOU'RE STEALING MY IDEAS!!!!!!!!!

Kelvin


----------



## Bluenote

LOL thanks to both of you!


----------



## Schnathorst

brumledb said:


> Is there any issue with using RCA outputs for some channels and speaker level outputs for others?
> 
> Example: I have a 4 channel amp and mono amp. I would run my front midbass and tweeters off of channel 1-4 on MS8 which would connect to amp via RCA's. Since I do not have any more amplified channels for rear fill speakers, can I connect them to channel 5 and 6 directly to speaker level outputs on MS8 so I can use the MS8's amplifier? Then obviously would put subs on channel 7 or 8 and use RCA from MS8 to amp.


I'm doing something very similar and it works. The only difference in my set up is that I'm running the front tweets off the MS-8 since tweeters don't need 75 watts RMS to run efficiently. This allows me to use the 4 channel amp to power the speakers that demand more power (i.e. my front MR speakers and my rear coax speakers). So how did it go? Did you finish the install?

SS


----------



## 1lowlife

I made 2 mistakes in setting up and installing my MS-8 that caused a month of frustration.
The biggest mistake, not using the passive crossover that came with my Focal PS 165 FX components for my front doors.
The consensus on a couple other forums was that I wouldn't need them since one uses the MS-8 set the crossover points.
I put them back in the door panels yesterday.










Second mistake was improper mounting of the front tweeters.
I bought factory door sails for my vehicle and mounted the tweeters from behind and I think that screwed up my calibrations.





I've since mounted them from the front using the Focal monuts and that helped lot.






I have it now, I have the awesomeness of the MS-8 in my Tundra.
Between moving the tweeters and putting my Focal crossovers back in, I now have it.
I've only done one calibration using default settings..
I now have clarity, not only in the front doors, but in the center speaker, and rears.
My sub doesn't rumble anymore, it THUMPS.
And I have not even touched the equalizer or messed with the amp gains yet.
My overall volume is great, I can't hardly turn it up past 50 without it being too loud.
Before I could turn it up to 63/MAX and still want more.

So all the problems I've been having were either from installing the tweeters from behind on the door sails, and/or bypassing and removing my passive bi-ampable crossovers.
I'm gonna say more from the crossover, but I think the tweeters were a bit blocked the way I had them installed.
Those Focal components, that I paid a lot for, are meant to be run with those passive crossovers, bottom line..
Pretty sure that is why they made it bi-ampable.

Thinking about replacing the center speaker with a Focal instead of the Polk in there now.
I'd like to have them all the same brand, just OCD on my part.
That center speaker plays a much bigger role with the MS-8 that I thought it did.
Either going to put a 4 inch under the center grill, or maybe a 5.25 inch mounted thru the top of the center grill.

So all is well.
Looking forward to playing with the crossover settings and FINALLY getting this thing tuned in.
It sounds pretty damn good the way it is..

My idea of buying another amp for the center and rears is gone.
I don't need another amp, the MS-8 powers the center and rears just fine..

Thanks for all the help y'all have given me to get though this...
It was well worth it, and I'm glad I never gave up on the MS-8.
I knew it had to be something simple I was doing wrong, and that was pretty much it..


----------



## 14642

I'm glad it's working, but I don't think that the tweeter mounting or the passive crossovers where what fixed the bass.


----------



## brumledb

Schnathorst said:


> I'm doing something very similar and it works. The only difference in my set up is that I'm running the front tweets off the MS-8 since tweeters don't need 75 watts RMS to run efficiently. This allows me to use the 4 channel amp to power the speakers that demand more power (i.e. my front MR speakers and my rear coax speakers). So how did it go? Did you finish the install?
> 
> SS


No, I haven't had time yet. Hopefully within a couple weeks I will get to install. I actually just picked up a 6 channel amp and some more speakers so will be running 3 way front off the 6 channel and I have a seperate amp for my subs. I will run the rear door speakers off the MS8. The reason I am going to use the MS8 to power the rear speakers instead of the tweets is because I don't want the rears to pull the stage toward the rear so I am not going to give them much 
power.
I'm only using them for a little ambience and for when anyone rides in back will have a little sound. That's my thought process anyways. We will see if it all goes as planned.


----------



## arsus88

What you get for the price is is simply unreal, especially now that these are down in the 450-500 dollar range. It will sum and de-EQ your factory unit, provides 8 channels of completely flexible output in terms of crossover assignment, the onboard amp is capable of a reasonable amount of output, acceptable for most end users (outside of a subwoofer) and the auto-tune is excellent, for an auto tune. I have no doubt that it's possible to do better, but I don't have the time or equipment or skills to approach what the MS8 does.


----------



## tbomb

DDfusion said:


> Anyone near Pensacola Florida to help me get this right? I got a nice rack cover waiting to go on.
> 
> I think I might be swapping out the Hertz for a more neutral German DD.


I'm in Pcola. Be happy to take a look. I loved the MS8 in my GTI. Screwed up with my 328 and got the HK upgrade, so nogo with MS8. Might put it in my wife's Mini.


----------



## fahadco80

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If you want to bi- or tri-amp the front or center, you can always use outboard amplifiers that include crossovers to achieve that. Side and rear speakers can be driven in parallel from the rear outputs of the MS-8.
> 
> The BMW is set up that way, sort of. The front mids and highs use a pair of pre amp outpus ad a 4-channel amplifier. THe 8's under the seats are used as midbass and are driven by another amplifier connected to two outputs. THe sides and rears are fed by two channnels of MS-8 through another outboard amp. The center uses a passive network, an outboard amp and an output channel from MS-8 and the sub uses the last one. It works great.





Hi Andy,

First of all, I apologise in advance for my long post 

I really need your help on this setup. I live in Kuwait (Middle East), And here in Kuwait no shop can help as we they do not have the experience to work with Bose and processors, So I will be doing the installation and the tuning process.

I have a 2009 Nissan GTR, with factory Bose system, the head unit only have 4 channels (low level signals) FR, RL, RR and RL going to the factory Bose amp under the seat, from there the factory amp outputs those 4 to get 8 channels (speaker level signals), 1 channel for centre, 4 channels for my 3 ways in the doors, 2 channels for rears and 1 channel for the 2 subs in the middle of the back seats (with is own separate amp).

=================================================

My plan is to add the below equipments:

Subs: pair HERTZ ENERGY ES200.5 (factory location) 200 RMS
Centre: one HERTZ HI-ENERGY HL 70 (factory location) 50 RMS
Rear Deck: pair HERTZ DCX87.3 (factory location) 30 RMS
Rear Sides: pair HERTZ HCX 690 (new fabricated location) 130 RMS
Doors: pair HERTZ HSK 163 (3 WAY) (factory location) 150 RMS

I did not decide yet what amps and DSP will go for. My top of the list is the MS8, but if it does not work with my setup, I will go with you recommendation.

=================================================

Most of the people who I asked suggested to stick with front stage and subs, and some of them told me to go with a separate head unit, these two options I am not thinking of at all, I would like to keep all factory speakers locations working and would like to add the 6x9 extra rear speakers as I mentioned before, I want to have the sound to come from every ware like the factory Bose, I do not know how to explain, but its much like if you are in a club and listening to music from every where, hopefully you can understand me guys. 

=================================================

Now my questions:

1. where is the best place to take the wires from, is it the head unit (the 4 channels low level) to the processor and from there to the new aftermarket amps? Or keep the factory amp and take the speaker levels outputs from the factory amp to the processor and from processor to the new amps? (attached a wiring diagram so some one expert could take a look at)

2. Is there a way to keep the passive crossover box on the 3 way Hertz and install each 3 way on 1 channel off the processor? Or its a must to keep each speaker of the 3 way on a separate channel on the DSP (active)? most of installers does the 3 way on 2 channels, I really do not understand why, but for my situation, I would like to reserve some outputs off the DSP, I will need to use them for the other speakers, 8 is not enough cause I am going to add 2 more speakers in the rear sides.

3. If your answer to Q2 is yes I can play the 3 way passive xover on one channel on DSP, is it still going to be tuneable on the DSP? Or will be losing the tuning feature on this specific channel?

4. If you have a diagram smiler to my plan, please show me, cause it will really help, as I am not a pro.

5. I really need your suggestions on what amps and DSP to go for with my setup?




Regards

Fahad





PS: I attached the two factory Amp adapters harnesses wiring diagram, these two harnesses plugged in the factory Amp (and below, I wrote the wiring pin numbers), it may help you to figure out a way to make it work.

Four Channels Bose Low Level from Head Unit to Amp:
2:Front Right:
19 - Red - line level input, front right +
20 - Green - line level input, front right -

1:Front Left:
18 - Blue - line level input, front left +
32 - Pink - line level input, front left -

3:Rear Right:
23 - Brown - line level input, rear right +
33 - Yellow - line level input, rear right -

4:Rear Left
21 - Violet - line level input, rear left +
22 - Light Blue - line level input, rear left -

One Channel Bose Line Level From Main Bose Amp under the seat to Bose Sub’s AMP:
09 - Pink - line level OUTPUT, subwoofer + (this goes to the subwoofer amp)
14 - Light Blue - line level OUTPUT, subwoofer - (this goes to the subwoofer amp)

Seven Channels Bose High Level From Amp to speakers and SUB’s Amp’s:
1: Center:
15 - Violet - speaker level output, centre +
28 - White - speaker level output, centre -

2:Mid-range & Tweeter Right:
08 - Light Blue - speaker level output, front right squawker and tweeter +
13 - Brown - speaker level output, front right squawker and tweeter -

3:Mid-range & Tweeter Left:
05 - Grey - speaker level output, front left squawker and tweeter +
04 - Orange - speaker level output, front left squawker and tweeter -

4:Mid-bass Right:
02 - Yellow - speaker level output, front right +
03 - Light Green - speaker level output, front right -

5:Mid-bass Left:
01 - Red - speaker level output, front left +
10 - Green - speaker level output, front left -

6:Full-range Rear Right (will be installed parallel with the extra 6x9 that I bought):
27 - Orange - speaker level output, rear right +
37 - Light Green - speaker level output, rear right -

7:Full-range Rear Left (will be installed parallel with the extra 6x9 that I bought):
06 - Violet - speaker level output, rear left +
07 - Light Green - speaker level output, rear left -

Bose Power:
11 - Yellow - Battery
12 - Black - Ground
31 - Violet - amp turn on signal


----------



## kaigoss69

tbomb said:


> Screwed up with my 328 and got the HK upgrade, so nogo with MS8. Might put it in my wife's Mini.


Why do you say that? I added the MS-8 to the stock HK system and the improvement was night and day. You can feed the high level L7 amp outputs directly into the MS-8. If you want to keep it simple, you can run everything if MS-8 power, but an external amp for the underseats is a good investment. I made a thread at e90post about my MS-8 installs, have a look.


----------



## fahadco80

kaigoss69 said:


> Why do you say that? I added the MS-8 to the stock HK system and the improvement was night and day. You can feed the high level L7 amp outputs directly into the MS-8. If you want to keep it simple, you can run everything if MS-8 power, but an external amp for the underseats is a good investment. I made a thread at e90post about my MS-8 installs, have a look.



Can you post the link of your thread please.

Thanks


----------



## tbomb

kaigoss69 said:


> Why do you say that? I added the MS-8 to the stock HK system and the improvement was night and day. You can feed the high level L7 amp outputs directly into the MS-8. If you want to keep it simple, you can run everything if MS-8 power, but an external amp for the underseats is a good investment. I made a thread at e90post about my MS-8 installs, have a look.


Well Technic basically made it look next to impossible. Let me clarify, impossible with out a MoBridge/coding+ and I am not looking to buy that. Car is a lease, so looking for a plug n play type solution. I will re-read your e90 thread. Maybe i missed something. i did the BSW front stage. original plan was to just use MS8 power, plus trunk sub powered by MS-a5001. Was finally going to get around to doing the sub this weekend powered by 2channels of MS-a1004 and use other 2 ch to power underseats. (i was able to get his harness and Lc2) But if i can do the MS8 without screwing it up i would definitely rather have that option. My car is an F30, but I dont think it changes anything.

Basically, you and Technic make up the BMW gurus. From numerous readings and convos with Technic, I thought that i could just recode to hifi and run with it, but je says not so fast. But basically wont really say what all needs to be done. i am sure he feels like its been explained ad nauseum, but it really hasnt, outside of he used to support it and now doesnt.. His stance is now "with HK just add sub and power underseats and leave it alone. you will be happy" As i stated, i am not looking to buy the MoBridge (which I believe is how you are running it) So if there is a cost effective solution, i.e. coding, I'd be all in.


forgot to include VP in the guru list...sorry


----------



## dlheman

It has been a long time since I visited this forum and it looks like JBL MS8 is still going strong. Great! And it's great to see Andy is still helping out too. 

Anyhow, I figured I want to share with you all my JBL MS8 experiences. The first time I use JBL MS8 was in year 2011 in my Toyota Celica. 4 years later in 2015, JBL MS8 is still my processor of choice by default. 

I think the last time I posted in this forum I was driving Nissan X-Trail and at that time the audio system was using JBL MS8 with complete 8 channels using AVISound speakers. I miss that car for its audio. 

But life goes on and currently my car audio is in Golf MK6 and I am still using JBL MS8. My setup is keep everything simple and use passive so I can take the most out of Logic 7 (because I simply love it). 

Head unit: Nakamichi CD-700
Front: Boston Acoustics SPZ60 (coax mode, 0db attenuation) + Boston Acoustics Neo Type M SE (SQ mode 8khz, 0db attenuation)
Side: Boston Acoustics Pro50SE (component mode, 0db attenuation)
Rear: Boston Acoustics Pro50SE (in custom pod, coax mode, 0db attenuation)
Sub: AVI Sound SLS-200 (custom port box)

Amps:
DLS A3 - front
DLS A4 - side and rear
DLS A5 - sub and imaging tweeter

The gain for speakers are set to 3 o'clock and for the sub at 9 o'clock. The DLS A series amps are all rated 7V. 

Autotune at -40db and voila. Too easy. 

I don't even feel like there is a need to EQ it as the result is simply astonishing. Powerful, dynamic, very detailed and yet very smooth so it never hurt the ears. And that is because of the grand sound stage. The sound stage is located beyond the windshield and wider than the A pillar. There are layers of music to be heard, and Michael Jackson can screams all he wants with his girly voice and it won't ever hurts the ears. Ever. 

And all of that is thanks to Logic 7. 

I also have build a simple JBL MS8 system on my brother's Mazda CX-5. I simply add 3 x 3.5" coaxials by Hertz on stock dash locations, slap in JBL GT5 coaxials for all 4 doors (at that time I have them lying around, so why not), 12' JBL sub (very old sub, not sure which model) in port box, and Audison SRx4 to power the sub and the two front door speakers. And running on stock OEM HU. It shamed the optional BOSE day and night anytime. And that system is basically using whatever I have lying around and whatever fits. Again, too easy.

I am currently building full AVI Sound / JBL MS8 system on my Dad's CX-7. So far the front and rear doors gets AVI Sound Direct LX-160 (both on passive), sub is AVI SLS-300 in sealed box, JBL PX300.4 for speakers, JBL PX600.2 for sub, and Nakamichi CD-700 head unit. So far the result is; beautiful sound! I love the AVI Sound to death. 

But it is still in building process and coming up for the CX-7 are AVI MX90 + HFB30 for center with custom 24db passive crossover and AVI Express XL130 on custom D pillar pods. And if I am bothered to do it I'll swap the front LX-160 for BSM-160 for an even better sound, and chuck in the SLS-300 into it's custom port box to get extended low. 

All the JBL MS8 audio system I've installed on my cars and my family member's cars have been successful and all of them produced superb sound quality. Not one of them have issues like bass too loud, or soundstage is off etc etc. MS8 simply delivers time and time again. And what it delivers is dynamic musical sound with proper sound stage. It simply plays whatever music I want it to play nicely. 

Now of course the better the speakers the better the sound, but the most important part with JBL MS8 system is back to basic; properly install the speakers and power them well. Because when MS8 is happy to hear what its hearing during the sweep; you too will be very2 happy to hear what MS8 did to your hard earned car audio system~! Simply musical!


----------



## swargolet

Since it warmed up this weekend, I decided to do a quick calibration again and try playing the the gains. I set the gains all the way down on my hd900/5 which is 2V. I then ran the calibration. The result, like usual was very quiet. So I increased my gains about 1/4 turn which helped a little bit still quiet. Then just out of curiosity, I increased them to just above the half way mark. Finally I had the volume I wanted but there was a ton of noise. When I muted the MS8, all the noise went away. The noise is present even when the input is set to aux on the MS8 which means that it is originating at the MS8. This basically confirms for me that my amps have plenty of power to drive the speakers to the levels I want, but the MS8 for some reason is absolutely killing the volume.


I only have two theories for this. The first is that there may be a huge null at the driver seat that the MS8 is tuning to. The second is that one of the channels is much quieter than the rest of the system so the MS8 adjusts the levels to that channel. I'm going to try what 1lowlife did and calibrate with only a certain set of speakers at a time to see if I can ID if it is a specific set that is causing the low volume. 

Thoughts?


----------



## mayaestianti

300Z said:


> MS-8 comes with the pre-amp/amp, a small display, a wireless remote control, a binaural microphone and a setup CD.
> 
> MS-8 will have 8 speaker level inputs, 8 line level inputs and an iPod input. The inputs are summed to provide a full-range 2-channel signal. If 6 or fewer inputs are required, then the last 2 can be used for an additional aux input.
> 
> There are no digital inputs. Why? Because the real benefit of digital input is "no noise". The downside to providing one is that for 99 percent of users, it's more hassle than it's worth and will cause a great deal of confusion. Not too many people understand that the connector doesn't determine the signal. What I mean is, if we put a toslink input and a user hooks up a toslink output, it will only work is the signal is compatible. DVD-Audio isn't available on a digital output, DVD signals are 48k, PCM is 44.1, home-made digital audio can be anything. The signal from tuners is often only output on the RCAs. For the vast majority of users, there is no benefit and too much opportunity for disappointment. As far as noise goes, our inputs are differential, so the commoon mode noise rejection is super high. There won't be any noise.
> 
> There are 8 input channels, so the 8 speaker level inputs and 8 line level inputs are basically in parallel. You can use any combination.
> 
> Once the signals have been combined and un-EQed (for a flat 2-channel signal), the signal is processed with Logic7. That provides signal steering for a center channel (if you have one--if not, no problem) and processing for side and rear channels. L7 works on any 2-channel source and is our version is written for cars rather than live-in rooms, so it sounds MUCH better than any of the encoded formats in a car. The 2-channel downmix of any encoded DVD or DVD-A disc will play back in full surround. If good-old 2-channel is what you want, L7 is defeatable and the channels are fully configurable (there are 8 output channels and they can be pre-amp channels or powered channels--20W x 8 at 4 ohms, 30W at 2 ohms). You can have 3-way front, a center and a sub, 2-way front, rear and a sub...whatever you want to do.
> 
> The electronic crossover that's built in is fully configurable. You can assign any channel to be anything and it includes an EZ setup mode and an advanced mode. In EZ setup, you tell each channel the speaker location (front right, for example), then you tell it what speaker is connected (6" full-range). It sets the crossover point. In advanced mode, you tell the channel the location (right front) and then assign a filter type (HP, LP, BP) and then you set the filter frequency (you can assign any value between 20 at 20kHz) and the slope (1st-4th order).
> 
> After the crossover setup is completed, you move on to the EQ. You put on the microphones (they look like airline headphones but contain mics instead of speakers) and insert the CD. The display will give you some instructions to sit in the driver's seat and look at the left mirror and press "go". the unit will make a quick sweep of all 8 output channels. Then it will ask you to look forward and will make another sweep. Finally, it'll ask you to look to the right--another quick sweep. You can measure only the driver's seat or up to 4 seats. After the measurements are made (takes about 5 minutes) the unit will calculate the frequency response, level and arrival time for all 8 channels in each seat and crunch some numbers (another 30 seconds or so). It auto-tunes the car with 48 measurements per seat (up to 4 seats). It will output a tuning optimized for the driver, passenger, compromise between driver and passenger and one for the rear seats. If you use a center channel, both front seats will sound the same and the image will be great for rear seat passengers too.
> 
> After the auto-tuning is done, it will allow you to change the target curve. You can call up a 31-band EQ tool and make whatever changes you want. Unlike a regular EQ, you don't have to find an RTA and tune the car with the EQ, you just draw the curve you want to hear and press "go" and it does the work in implementing your curve. Then you can switch back and forth between your curve and the automatic one and continue making changes until you're satisfied. The curve you draw will always be adjusted in level so that the maximum number of bits are available to describe the signal (optimized for dynamic range). Once you save the curve, you can access any of the settings optimized for any seat using the remote control and the display.
> 
> You can turn Logic7 on and off, adjust the level of the center channel, use a balance control, fader, 3 or 11-band graphic EQ or adjust the level of the bass. THe bass control isn't a gain control for the subwoofer output, it's a filter that works with the crossover and applies the right amount of bass to ALL channels so the illusion of bass up front isn't destroyed when you turn up the bass.
> 
> Answers to some likely questions:
> 
> 1. You don't have to use the unit's volume control. You can use the one in the head-unit if you want to.
> 2. Maximum input voltage on the RCAs is 2V and 15V on the speaker level inputs. The signal is converted directly into digital after the preamp buffer, so a high signal level is far less important in this device than in conventional ones. The input is fully differential, so there won't be noise. I suggest speaker level connections because they are COMPLETELY isolated from ground.
> 3. The automatic EQ isn't exactly parametric or graphic. It's a very powerful algorithm that works on the impulse response to adjust both time and frequency response. It's amazing and does in about 30 seconds what I can do with an 80 band parametric EQ, crossover, time alignment and a serious analyzer in about 3 days.
> 4. The display doesn't have to be mounted. If you don't want iPod control or the ability to adjust after setup, you can unplug the display and use MS-8 as a "black box".
> 5. The unit is small--about 8.5" x 11" x 2.5"
> 6. Price will be about $800...TBD
> 7. The software is updatable via USB and a PC.
> 
> It does what all other OEM integration tools do and what every other DSP (EQ, Crossover, Time alignment, 7.1) processors do, but it sounds better, is easier to use, is less expensive and is far more advanced in terms of DSP power. Best of all, it's a tool you can be successful with, rather than a whiz-bang collection of filters and adjustment possibilities that require a PhD in acousitcs to use.


Wow that looks like a pretty impressive unit


----------



## MetricMuscle

Is anyone running their subwoofer higher than the typical 80Hz?

I realize PLD effects frequencies below 1KHz more so than those above and that typically frequencies below 300Hz are hard to localize at all.
So, would crossing a subwoofer or woofer at 300Hz have ill effects on MS-8 calibration and performance?
There would still be 6" woofers in the front doors covering 300Hz to 1KHz.


----------



## Elgrosso

300Hz seems high, but I just tried up to 140Hz.
So in mine, 100/24 was ok for localization, 120Hz almost, 140 not.
Worst was with 12db slopes for sure, it was messy.
And I didn't try to play with levels to optimize.


----------



## thehatedguy

The highest I can go in my car is about 125 with the sub firing through the ski pass. Higher than that, the midbass all collapses to the center of the car.


----------



## MetricMuscle

Elgrosso said:


> 300Hz seems high, but I just tried up to 140Hz.
> So in mine, 100/24 was ok for localization, 120Hz almost, 140 not.
> Worst was with 12db slopes for sure, it was messy.
> And I didn't try to play with levels to optimize.





thehatedguy said:


> The highest I can go in my car is about 125 with the sub firing through the ski pass. Higher than that, the midbass all collapses to the center of the car.


Did you both re-calibrate?
I suppose you have to when using MS-8.

What about 2 large mid-bass drivers on either side of the rear deck/package tray? Would that help?

The motivation for my interest in this is from Patrick Bateman's thread on *Natural Bass*. The legendary mid-bass in a Buick GN discussed in that thread and how a car interior works against frequencies between 80Hz and 320Hz.
Andy did comment in that thread and said he had found the best locations to be Front left/right/center for a mid bass driver location. I'm just limited as to how large and powerful I can go in my front doors and don't plan to run a center channel. Sure would be nice to use the corners of my rear deck/package tray for a couple of 10" mid bass monsters.


----------



## brumledb

MetricMuscle said:


> Did you both re-calibrate?
> I suppose you have to when using MS-8.
> 
> What about 2 large mid-bass drivers on either side of the rear deck/package tray? Would that help?
> 
> The motivation for my interest in this is from Patrick Bateman's thread on *Natural Bass*. The legendary mid-bass in a Buick GN discussed in that thread and how a car interior works against frequencies between 80Hz and 320Hz.
> Andy did comment in that thread and said he had found the best locations to be Front left/right/center for a mid bass driver location. I'm just limited as to how large and powerful I can go in my front doors and don't plan to run a center channel. Sure would be nice to use the corners of my rear deck/package tray for a couple of 10" mid bass monsters.


This is some good reading about midbass behind you. BuickGN and Patrick are in most of these.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/74088-midbass-arrays-revisited.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion/134418-midbass-back-why-not.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/134267-mid-bass-tweeter-location-vs-crossover-points-andy-wehmeyer-comments.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/17874-dashboard-domes-rear-mounted-midbass-rear-fill.html


----------



## thehatedguy

I didn't have a MS8 when I did those experiments. Others seem to have similar experiences at about the same frequencies with the sub in similar locations.

I was able to get up to about 300 with the midbasses on the rear deck before it became really noticeable that they were behind you. But that location killed the width because there was no ITD due to one midbass being directly behind my head...which is why Andy recommends the locations he did- they are the physically widest spots you can get in a car, and increases the ITD.


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## joaozelo

Hello guys
I'm from Brazil, I am learning to speak english.
Let's get to it; 
I have these car audio equipments:
AMP JL SLASH 300/4V3
JL ZR650-CSI
AMP FOSGATE T1000-1BDCP
Subwoofer Image Dynamics IDQ12 D2 V4
Processor JBL MS8

The processor not saving the calibration. I need to recalibrate every time after reboot. When I start the car. That is, when I turn off the JBL, i need to recalibrate, so can listen the music. What can I do?
I use on JBL
Channel 1 and 2 - MID 
Channel 3 and 4 - TW
Channel 7 and 8 - Sub


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## 14642

Sounds like the small internal battery that keeps the memory is dead or a problem with flash memory.


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## joaozelo

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sounds like the small internal battery that keeps the memory is dead or a problem with flash memory.


Thank you for the answer.
I myself can solve these problems? change the battery or memory? I do not know when I return to the United States.


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## 14642

Call the Harman do Brazil office. They should be able to help you.


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## joaozelo

They reported that do not offer warranty a products purchased outside of Brazil, however could change the parts that do not work if I can import US. Can you help me find where can I buy the two parts?


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## 14642

So the Harman office in Brazil won't help you with a JBL product even though they also sell the same JBL product?

WHAT? 

I don't even work for them anymore and I'm still here doing tech support and they cannot provide repair service for a product that they sell? 

WHAT? 

Joaozelo, please send me your contact information including phone and email to [email protected] and I'll see what I can do.


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## 14642

I found someone to help you in Brazil. Please send contact info.


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## joaozelo

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I found someone to help you in Brazil. Please send contact info.


I sent an e-mail. Thank you.


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## MetricMuscle

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I found someone to help you in Brazil. Please send contact info.


Now that is just plain awesome!


----------



## nanohead

Something's awry with my MS-8. Had it installed in my pickup for a year and half. The original one lost 2 channels this winter unfortunately. I bought a replacement (temporarily installed the Helix DSP Pro), and installed it over the weekend. Its a new unit, and OMG it sounds TERRIBLE. 

You can see the rest of the gear in my sig, nice stuff, and before, with the original MS-8, it sounded awesome. Now though, it is absolutely awful.

With the first unit, I was able to run calibration, then make just a couple of EQ tweaks to treble/mid, and it sounded even, balanced, detailed, clean and loud. Image was pretty much centered, close to mid of the dash, and it was basically a joy to listen to daily. With this replacement unit, I can't even come CLOSE to what it sounded like before. It is simply dreadful.....

After calibration, it sounds worse than the $12 system I had in my car 35 years ago. Not sure if the calibration actually is doing anything useful. Image is very directional. Bass is OVERWHELMING, I have the sub amp gain turned completely down, and it turned down almost completely in the MS-8 system level as well. Horrible....

The soundstage is not there. Not sure if TA is doing anything. If I turn processing off, then it sounds like the speakers of course, but with processing on, its almost unlistenable to. I'm somewhat experienced with the unit, had the other one for a year and a half, so I have some level of instinct with it (at least I thought so!)

I've done calibration at least 10 times, and I have no idea what the problem is. I've put the settings to exactly what it was in the older unit (xover/slope, etc), but to no avail. Its definitely processing something, but not sure what! 

This thread is massive, so finding clues as to what direction to take is hard, as I don't have a week to read everything (wish I did). 

Anyone have any ideas on how to go about getting this thing to sound good again? 

If the calibration mic/headset is not working correctly, will the unit tell us? 

I'm at a loss, and may jettison the MS-8 for a Helix (the DSP Pro was originally for my Audi R8, but it's been filling in for the roached MS-8)


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## 14642

Check your connections and channel assignments carefully. There's no difference between the one you took out and the one you had in terms of software or hardware. A defective microphone could be a problem, but that's rare.


----------



## Lord Raven

Hi JBL Community,
I am running JBL MS8 for more than 2 years, fully satisfied without any issues. It's almost time that I upgrade to something else, but before I could make up my mind, I have a few questions.
I literally looked around everywhere but I couldn't find the answer.

What is the processing capability of this DSP, the bit depth and sampling rate? 

Also, if I play a DVD on my Pioneer with higher audio bit rate, would it give me any better SQ? I was thinking of switching to DVD's (mostly), I play CD quality WAV files from USB (Flac to WAV). 

Lastly, I need a one liner on Helix C-DSP vs DSP PRO's comparison. Has anyone recently switched from MS8? Thanks for your time.


----------



## nanohead

Lord Raven said:


> Hi JBL Community,
> I am running JBL MS8 for more than 2 years, fully satisfied without any issues. It's almost time that I upgrade to something else, but before I could make up my mind, I have a few questions.
> I literally looked around everywhere but I couldn't find the answer.
> 
> What is the processing capability of this DSP, the bit depth and sampling rate?
> 
> Also, if I play a DVD on my Pioneer with higher audio bit rate, would it give me any better SQ? I was thinking of switching to DVD's (mostly), I play CD quality WAV files from USB (Flac to WAV).
> 
> Lastly, I need a one liner on Helix C-DSP vs DSP PRO's comparison. Has anyone recently switched from MS8? Thanks for your time.


Funny! I had moved from MS-8 to Helix DSP pro (more of an accident, my original MS-8 lost 2 channels in our frigid winter this year). 

I honestly don't think that there's a material reason to change units, unless something is bothering you. My first MS-8 sounded amazing after I dialed it in. Then it died, had a Helix Pro (destined for my R8) sitting on the shelf, so put it in, spent a day or so configuring, and was back to a great sound. 

Not sure if the Pro sounded "better", possibly different, but after hours of tuning, my ears get fatigued anyway. I left the Pro in until last week, when I replaced it with a new MS-8. Unfortunately (see my above post), the new MS-8 sounds lousy, but its likely fixable and something I'm doing, or its a bad unit for some reason 

If you like the sound, changing out the MS-8 opens a can of worms. I have an MS-8, an Helix DSP Pro, a Zapco Z8 (horrible), an Mosconi 6to8, and a Soundstream Harmony across my various family cars. Candidly, if you want a solid auto tune experience, with the ability to lightly tweak on the fly, then the MS-8 is hard to beat. The Helix comes second, but its a far second from the auto tune standpoint (it does auto EQ nicely, but no TA or Leveling). The rest require hours/days/weeks to get it to where you want it.

As far as specs/bit depth/resolution, I can't imagine any human could ever hear a difference. The source material is far more variable than what the DSP could process. I use high quality stuff too (FLAC/WAV) where I can get it from the artist/label/bandcamp, and honestly, even the source material at high resolution varies a ton.

Most DSP chips (ASICs) are designed to work across a variety of applications, car audio being one of the smaller markets. The higher bit rate resolution of the processors in the chips may help things like visual DSP resolution, etc, but car audio is pretty crude in general.

Heck, I still listen to vinyl records, and that sounds great when set up right!


----------



## nanohead

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Check your connections and channel assignments carefully. There's no difference between the one you took out and the one you had in terms of software or hardware. A defective microphone could be a problem, but that's rare.


Thanks Andy, appreciate you still being here and helping us!

I'm the first to blame myself for this kind of stuff, but as the unit is so automated, its hard to see into what its actually doing.


----------



## Lanson

On the processor front, what we need is an MS10 or 12 or something. But since Andy's moved on to bigger and better we'll probably never see it from Harman.


----------



## jgarcia1925

Man, I have been trying to catch up on this thread, but i have joined a little too late, no way im reading over 10k posts., curious to see if anyone here can point me out to some threads where people have used this on a mk6 gti. looking to get one and slowly build my project. new amp and subs are first in line.


----------



## nanohead

Honestly, I'd be happy with a software/firmware revision that made the unit a little more flexible, maybe a way to do some more detailed adjustments AFTER the calibration (slope, Xover, etc). The whole "linear" setup process is the only thing that gets on my nerves as compared to the the flexibility of the other units I have. To experiment with xovers/slopes etc, is a massive PITA, to go through the process over and over and over again. What was delivered (thanks Andy) was pretty high quality, and has served many of us well for several years now.

As with all products, the internal champion drives the development process, and we've lost ours !


----------



## t3sn4f2

I think we just need to wait a few more years. I can't imagine Audio Frog not having something out by then.


----------



## FordEscape

t3sn4f2 said:


> I think we just need to wait a few more years. *I can't imagine Audio Frog not having something out by then*.


I can. While we all benefit hugely from Andy's continuing support of this 'child from his JBL days', my guess is that he's on to different personally stimulating professional challenges and not likely to revisit the project of creating an 'MS-8-like' tool.

Absolutely no basis for this notion other than a mythical image I've built of the man from my readings on this forum and my own experience managing to stay stimulated and challenged through my engineering career (I'm now retired, opted-out when the opportunities for stimulating challenges waned in my particular situation).

Of course I could be, and for selfish reasons hope I am, totally wrong.

In any case I'm glad to enjoy the fruits of Andy's labor on the MS-8 project and his continued support here.


----------



## Elgrosso

That's nicely said!
Sure I can see them busy as hell with their existing line now.
But if one man could improve this field, change the game again, I think he is the one.
Without the big R&D staff from HK it might be an impossible task though (software side).
But many others solutions exists now, minidsp has great stuff for example, that could definitely be pulled to another level with the right mindset (balance between UX/performance, imho).


----------



## Lanson

These days with the advent of tiny little SoC computers, I don't think we're too far off from a reality of a better, more capable processor.

But we're in such a niche market, it seems only the uber brands with huge price tags to match are contenders. 

Also, I think it is about time we move past 1940's RCA cable technology.


----------



## MetricMuscle

jgarcia1925 said:


> Man, I have been trying to catch up on this thread, but i have joined a little too late, no way im reading over 10k posts., curious to see if anyone here can point me out to some threads where people have used this on a mk6 gti. looking to get one and slowly build my project. new amp and subs are first in line.


Before you purchase any new equipment I'd suggest you make sure your plan will work with Andy's recipe for success. I'll try to find the link to the Cliff's Notes version of this thread, "All Meat" something or nother. The lesson his world famous chicken dish teaches is very important for success with this particular DSP.

Here we go-
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2238063-post10558.html


----------



## FordEscape

MetricMuscle said:


> ..... the link to the Cliff's Notes version of this thread, "All Meat" something or nother. The lesson his world famous chicken dish teaches is very important for success with this particular DSP.
> 
> Here we go-
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2238063-post10558.html


In retrospect I wish I'd keyed those notes to thread page numbers to make it easier to get the 'full context' of Andy's comments.

Short of that, a tip for using the notes .... when you find a comment of interest clip a unique-looking phrase from it and enter in regular Google search (not this forum search window) .... that'll usually get you to the post in the thread so you can see the surrounding questions for context and better understanding.

HTH


----------



## nanohead

fourthmeal said:


> These days with the advent of tiny little SoC computers, I don't think we're too far off from a reality of a better, more capable processor.
> 
> But we're in such a niche market, it seems only the uber brands with huge price tags to match are contenders.


Its funny, I actually looked at what it would take to do a car audio DSP unit. The hardware is the least of the problems, and could be built for probably between $100-$200 with most things we all want (only 8 channels, in order to keep the cost reasonable). The mass market ASICs (TI, Cirrus, and a few others) are more than capable, but the software development is the biggest problem by a wide margin. I've built stuff like this over the years, and the hardware doesn't scare me one bit. I'm more of a software engineer by trade, and while its truly interesting, the time and effort to do the software would be substantial. I guess its why most of the really good ones cost so much.

I'm not sure the semiconductor industry has any incentive to make more capable DSPs (10 channels and up, etc) as many are designed for more traditional Home Theater applications, which don't need that many channels. They are actually trying to shrink them and make them faster, rather than make them more capable


----------



## Lanson

nanohead said:


> Its funny, I actually looked at what it would take to do a car audio DSP unit. The hardware is the least of the problems, and could be built for probably between $100-$200 with most things we all want (only 8 channels, in order to keep the cost reasonable). The mass market ASICs (TI, Cirrus, and a few others) are more than capable, but the software development is the biggest problem by a wide margin. I've built stuff like this over the years, and the hardware doesn't scare me one bit. I'm more of a software engineer by trade, and while its truly interesting, the time and effort to do the software would be substantial. I guess its why most of the really good ones cost so much.
> 
> I'm not sure the semiconductor industry has any incentive to make more capable DSPs (10 channels and up, etc) as many are designed for more traditional Home Theater applications, which don't need that many channels. They are actually trying to shrink them and make them faster, rather than make them more capable



Andy has spoken repeatedly about messing around with VST plugins and running off chipamps in his own car. It would probably be best to use off-the-shelf solutions for software or open source.


----------



## nanohead

fourthmeal said:


> Andy has spoken repeatedly about messing around with VST plugins and running off chipamps in his own car. It would probably be best to use off-the-shelf solutions for software or open source.


Thats certainly an interesting minimalistic approach. You'd still need something to run the whole VST harness with (processing, memory, I/O, etc). But I could see it as a much more integrated, simpler chipamp influenced way of getting the source signal to the speakers. I like quite a bit of the open source projects, but these hobbyist type ones really need quite a bit of polish to become commercial grade products that could be sold and supported.

I keep thinking that some of the newer mobile device SoCs are looking more and more interesting as semi real time compute platforms. The Mediatek guys just announced a 10 core SoC. Heck, Allwinner, the top of the heap in cheap SoCs for mobile has an 8 large core SoC with a single GPU built in (that could handle some vector calcs if need be).

Most of these are running at 2Ghz or greater, so you can start to see speeds that get us to near real time processing, on a $5 part. Maybe thats the place where a VST platform would run as a VST host for a straight through multi channel audio processing system.....

I could imagine an Arduino/Rasberry Pi type device with one of these crazy 10 core SoCs on it for sure. But as you pointed out, we're still stuck in the Analog domain (RCAs) for most things, which would require A/D and D/A conversion, which would make the devices be much bigger than they would need to be if it was digital end to end.....

OK, now I'm going to try and fall asleep with all these crazy ideas running through my pea brain


----------



## 14642

For the most part, the hardware doesn't matter with a couple of exceptions. Inputs and outputs need to be noise free--differential in and balanced out. 

It's the software that's expensive and time consuming. IF you're just going to expose on-chip libraries, then all you need is a GUI. See EVERY DSP available (except MS-8) for examples of this in the acoustic tuning section of the software. Very few of them make the necessary on-chip libraries available for summing and flatteing the input signal. This suggests to me that none of these designers has any idea what's in a factory system.

The real hurdle in making a DSP is in making one with which tuners can be successful. For anything that's going to be automated, someone has to develop an algorithm that works. That takes a combination of coding ability, mathematics, acoustics and experience in using all of those in a car. There aren't too many of those around. 

I find it amusing that people will buy a Nest for $300 to automatically control the temperature in their houses but think that "tinkering" or "playing around" with the filters is going to be more successful when they are tuning car.

I also find the idea that going back in to adjust the crossover or the delay AFTER an algorithm has adjusted them is going to do the trick. I guess it's kind of like selling a car to someone who has ridden a horse all his life. What do you say when he asks, "How many times will I have to stop so the car can pee?" Or "How much grass does this car have to eat each time I stop?" Or, "Can't you replace the steering wheel with some leather straps I can pull to go left or right? That works better."


----------



## AAAAAAA

^ So is audiofrog considering a DSP?


----------



## Elgrosso

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> For the most part, the hardware doesn't matter with a couple of exceptions. Inputs and outputs need to be noise free--differential in and balanced out.
> 
> It's the software that's expensive and time consuming. IF you're just going to expose on-chip libraries, then all you need is a GUI. See EVERY DSP available (except MS-8) for examples of this in the acoustic tuning section of the software. Very few of them make the necessary on-chip libraries available for summing and flatteing the input signal. This suggests to me that none of these designers has any idea what's in a factory system.


Should this be considered as an option, since it depends of the target? (installers on complex OEM system VS diyers etc)




Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The real hurdle in making a DSP is in making one with which tuners can be successful. For anything that's going to be automated, someone has to develop an algorithm that works. That takes a combination of coding ability, mathematics, acoustics and experience in using all of those in a car. There aren't too many of those around.


Dirac seems to have a growing success now in home, and it looks like they're going a step further in car.
Also its price reveals the cost of R&D.
But, would you consider it as one of the few solution that is well made?





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I find it amusing that people will buy a Nest for $300 to automatically control the temperature in their houses but think that "tinkering" or "playing around" with the filters is going to be more successful when they are tuning car.
> 
> I also find the idea that going back in to adjust the crossover or the delay AFTER an algorithm has adjusted them is going to do the trick. I guess it's kind of like selling a car to someone who has ridden a horse all his life. What do you say when he asks, "How many times will I have to stop so the car can pee?" Or "How much grass does this car have to eat each time I stop?" Or, "Can't you replace the steering wheel with some leather straps I can pull to go left or right? That works better."


Paradigm shift… I guess success would only come if new customers embrace the idea, since probably only a few percentage of typical diyer could be convinced.


----------



## 14642

I've only looked at Dirac a little bit. Whether it works in a car and whether it can be a completely automated thing depends on the algorithm and what decisions are based on which rules. A really long FIR filter works fine, so long as latency and processing power aren't an issue.


----------



## Lord Raven

Where I live, it's mostly 50 C, I'll have to intentionally get rid of this magical box 

Not sure if the Pro sounded "better"? Well, most of the competition cars are using PRO, C-DSP or their equivalents. I have rarely seen anyone using an MS8. What do you think about that? I am surprised someone switched from MS8 and returned to it.

Only thing that bothers me is that, MS8 does everything on it own and then you are helpless. The centre image wanders a little bit, which I suppose is due to different recording. On some tracks it is dead centre. I guess it does not figure out the TA correctly. I have done millions of iterations but still couldn't get dead centre on all tracks. I used an automated unit all my life, one reason is that I want to try manual.

There is an obvious difference between CD and DVD if you have sensitive speakers. My question is still unanswered. What is the bit depth and sampling rate that MS8 is operating on? 

Analogue and less components in the system, will definitely sound well 



nanohead said:


> Funny! I had moved from MS-8 to Helix DSP pro (more of an accident, my original MS-8 lost 2 channels in our frigid winter this year).
> 
> I honestly don't think that there's a material reason to change units, unless something is bothering you. My first MS-8 sounded amazing after I dialed it in. Then it died, had a Helix Pro (destined for my R8) sitting on the shelf, so put it in, spent a day or so configuring, and was back to a great sound.
> 
> Not sure if the Pro sounded "better", possibly different, but after hours of tuning, my ears get fatigued anyway. I left the Pro in until last week, when I replaced it with a new MS-8. Unfortunately (see my above post), the new MS-8 sounds lousy, but its likely fixable and something I'm doing, or its a bad unit for some reason
> 
> If you like the sound, changing out the MS-8 opens a can of worms. I have an MS-8, an Helix DSP Pro, a Zapco Z8 (horrible), an Mosconi 6to8, and a Soundstream Harmony across my various family cars. Candidly, if you want a solid auto tune experience, with the ability to lightly tweak on the fly, then the MS-8 is hard to beat. The Helix comes second, but its a far second from the auto tune standpoint (it does auto EQ nicely, but no TA or Leveling). The rest require hours/days/weeks to get it to where you want it.
> 
> As far as specs/bit depth/resolution, I can't imagine any human could ever hear a difference. The source material is far more variable than what the DSP could process. I use high quality stuff too (FLAC/WAV) where I can get it from the artist/label/bandcamp, and honestly, even the source material at high resolution varies a ton.
> 
> Most DSP chips (ASICs) are designed to work across a variety of applications, car audio being one of the smaller markets. The higher bit rate resolution of the processors in the chips may help things like visual DSP resolution, etc, but car audio is pretty crude in general.
> 
> Heck, I still listen to vinyl records, and that sounds great when set up right!


----------



## kaigoss69

Lord Raven said:


> Where I live, it's mostly 50 C, I'll have to intentionally get rid of this magical box
> 
> Not sure if the Pro sounded "better"? Well, most of the competition cars are using PRO, C-DSP or their equivalents. I have rarely seen anyone using an MS8. What do you think about that? I am surprised someone switched from MS8 and returned to it.
> 
> Only thing that bothers me is that, MS8 does everything on it own and then you are helpless. The centre image wanders a little bit, which I suppose is due to different recording. On some tracks it is dead centre. I guess it does not figure out the TA correctly. I have done millions of iterations but still couldn't get dead centre on all tracks. I used an automated unit all my life, one reason is that I want to try manual.
> 
> There is an obvious difference between CD and DVD if you have sensitive speakers. My question is still unanswered. What is the bit depth and sampling rate that MS8 is operating on?
> 
> Analogue and less components in the system, will definitely sound well


The sample rate is 48/16. The imaging is different from song to song due to the way the songs are recorded.


----------



## t3sn4f2

kaigoss69 said:


> The sample rate is 48/16. The imaging is different from song to song due to the way the songs are recorded.


Digital path should be 24 bits.


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> Digital path should be 24 bits.


Why? c. 63,000,000 different possible levels 48,000 times per second is insufficient to properly resolve a few simple biquad filters?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Why? c. 63,000,000 different possible levels 48,000 times per second is insufficient to properly resolve a few simple biquad filters?


It was more of an assumption since everything out there now claims 24bit adc/dac and 32 bit processing. I assumed why wouldnt the path take advantage of the potential. But i guess iwas wrong and the marketing claims i read about are just chip specs and nothing more.


----------



## Lanson

Andy you have to keep in mind and remember, you've likely forgotten more about this stuff than any of us have actually ever learned ever. 


Back to it, since MS-8's will become scarce very soon I predict..., how do we replace it without taking a step back?


----------



## Elgrosso

Dirac?


----------



## Arthur71

Andy, I want to connect factory amp outputs to the ms-8 because the headunit doesn't have an analog preamp output only most. Power is rated 100 W @ 8 Ohms for front door woofers and 2 x 100 W @ 8 Ohms for DVC stock subwoofer. Can ms-8 handle this? I read in the manual that speaker level input is max 16 V (RMS?)


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met behulp van Tapatalk


----------



## 14642

^^ Which car?


----------



## 14642

t3sn4f2 said:


> It was more of an assumption since everything out there now claims 24bit adc/dac and 32 bit processing. I assumed why wouldnt the path take advantage of the potential. But i guess iwas wrong and the marketing claims i read about are just chip specs and nothing more.



There's a lot of marketing hooey around "high-def" recordings and this is now leaking out to processing. There is a benefit to super high def recording. Not because we can hear the difference but because it leaves more room for signal manipulation in mixing and mastering. While we do some of the same things, 24/96 for processing in cars is certainly a nice to have, but if you're giving up a useful processing tool to get it, then it isn't worth it.


----------



## 14642

fourthmeal said:


> Andy you have to keep in mind and remember, you've likely forgotten more about this stuff than any of us have actually ever learned ever.
> 
> 
> Back to it, since MS-8's will become scarce very soon I predict..., how do we replace it without taking a step back?


Yes, it's nearly over. If you want one, better act fast.


----------



## Arthur71

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ^^ Which car?



Skoda Octavia. It is a brand, part of the VAG group. 











Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met behulp van Tapatalk


----------



## neozeric

If i am using the front left speaker +/- from the factory head unit can i simply solder them to an rca cable and input into the MS8 as RCA inputs on channel 1 and 2 ? I already have RCA cables ran and would rather use those than run two more wires for hi-level inputs. Thanks in advance.


----------



## SQLnovice

Does your factory radio have rca outputs?


----------



## neozeric

SQLnovice said:


> Does your factory radio have rca outputs?


No. It has line level outputs but they are wires, not RCA jacks/plugs. So my question is how to solder in an RCA cable to these line level wires and will that be ok for the MS-8


----------



## Elgrosso

You didn't have rca adapter in the box? Maybe I'm wrong but I think they came with it, sort or rca on one side, and 2 holes w/ screws on the other. (Or is it with the ms amp?)


----------



## FordEscape

Elgrosso said:


> You didn't have rca adapter in the box? Maybe I'm wrong but I think they came with it, sort or rca on one side, and 2 holes w/ screws on the other. (Or is it with the ms amp?)


The RCA adaptors you're recalling are with the MS amps, NOT the MS-8.



neozeric said:


> No. It has line level outputs but they are wires, not RCA jacks/plugs. So my question is how to solder in an RCA cable to these line level wires and will that be ok for the MS-8


Google "bare wire to RCA adaptor" for some options similar to the adaptors Elgrosso is thinking of.


----------



## neozeric

Thanks. Does the negative wire from the RCA go to ground or just tape it off?


----------



## Blackbeard

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, it's nearly over. If you want one, better act fast.


Andy,
Please clarify "it's nearly over".


----------



## 1lowlife

I'd like advice from the MS-8 experts.
Even though I have my MS-8 up and running and sounding pretty good, I feel I'm still missing some clarity.

Right now, 2014 Tundra stock HU into MS-8 speaker level inputs.
If I were to buy say, an Audiocontrol LC2i and install that in between the stock HU and the MS-8, would I get a better result than speaker inputs on the MS-8?
Or, what I'm asking is, would I be better off with RCA inputs VS speaker level inputs with the MS-8?
Or would I just have the same results with either input with what I have?

Any advice appreciated....1LL


----------



## kaigoss69

1lowlife said:


> I'd like advice from the MS-8 experts.
> Even though I have my MS-8 up and running and sounding pretty good, I feel I'm still missing some clarity.
> 
> Right now, 2014 Tundra stock HU into MS-8 speaker level inputs.
> If I were to buy say, an Audiocontrol LC2i and install that in between the stock HU and the MS-8, would I get a better result than speaker inputs on the MS-8?
> Or, what I'm asking is, would I be better off with RCA inputs VS speaker level inputs with the MS-8?
> Or would I just have the same results with either input with what I have?
> 
> Any advice appreciated....1LL


I would think the MS-8 internal circuitry would do no worse of a job cleaning up your OEM signal than the LC2. If you feel your problem of "clarity" is on the input side, connect an external source to the aux input and compare.


----------



## Lanson

Blackbeard said:


> Andy,
> Please clarify "it's nearly over".


JBL MS-8 is discontinued, and stock is running out.


----------



## 1lowlife

kaigoss69 said:


> I would think the MS-8 internal circuitry would do no worse of a job cleaning up your OEM signal than the LC2. If you feel your problem of "clarity" is on the input side, connect an external source to the aux input and compare.


Thanks..
I kinda figured the LC2 and MS-8 were doing the same thing.
I tried the iPhone thru AUX input and it sounds about the same.
Perhaps I just need to do some more equalizer tweaking...

Nothing to do with clarity, but I bought another amp to run my center and rear doors.
I'm currently running the front components separately with a 5 channel 100w RMS X 4 amp (500 for the sub), and the center and rears out of the MS-8 (20w RMS).
The new amp is 50w RMS, I'm going to bridge two of the channels for the center and the other 2 channels for the rear speakers.
I'm hoping (in my head) this will even my levels out and make for better and louder calibration results.


----------



## bigjeep127

Anyone having issues getting no midbass even without a sub installed? I've tried looking through this thread and all midbass issues seem to involve a sub.

Stereo Integrity TM65
Vifa NE25VTS
PPI P900.4

50,2500 xovers at 24dB

Should I go lower, like 2000? Will that hurt the Vifa tweet?

Doors are VERY well deadened and sealed.


----------



## nanohead

bigjeep127 said:


> Anyone having issues getting no midbass even without a sub installed? I've tried looking through this thread and all midbass issues seem involve a sub.
> 
> Stereo Integrity TM65
> Vifa NE25VTS
> PPI P900.4
> 
> 50,2500 xovers at 24dB
> 
> Should I go lower, like 2000? Will that hurt the Vifa tweet?
> 
> Doors are VERY well deadened and sealed.


Most of us have the opposite problem! In my case, raising the xover and flattening the slope seemed to help. Not sure if it will in your case. I'm using a Hybrid L6SE, which is pretty "wideband" (whatever that really means). I get the best sound crossing it at [email protected], but I believe those TM65s are much tighter in terms of their range. 

Surprisingly, I'd imagine that a deadened door would increase mid bass. Have you played with the eq/tone controls at all? I use PPI 900.4s also, it might be worthwhile making sure you don't have one of those 1x/10x buttons pushed in the wrong way by accident.

I've done that a few times when picking it up and half my sound went away or it became distorted.


----------



## bigjeep127

nanohead said:


> Most of us have the opposite problem! In my case, raising the xover and flattening the slope seemed to help. Not sure if it will in your case. I'm using a Hybrid L6SE, which is pretty "wideband" (whatever that really means). I get the best sound crossing it at [email protected], but I believe those TM65s are much tighter in terms of their range.
> 
> Surprisingly, I'd imagine that a deadened door would increase mid bass. Have you played with the eq/tone controls at all? I use PPI 900.4s also, it might be worthwhile making sure you don't have one of those 1x/10x buttons pushed in the wrong way by accident.
> 
> I've done that a few times when picking it up and half my sound went away or it became distorted.


Yeah, definitely not the 1x/10x buttons, I do have the crossover on the tweets set on the amp to protect them just in case I screw up the MS8 input settings.

I've played with the tone controls, not much of a difference. I've been looking at the MS8 FAQ thread, I may try turning up the amp gain and lowering the level on the MS8 during calibration to 40.

From what I read you shouldn't go much higher than 2500 on the TM65's as you said. That's why I got the Vifa's, I read a few say they're good down to 2000-2500, I may drop the crossover and see how that affects it. Do most people use a sharp slope for the 2 way crossover when it's this low? I'm new to active setups, well, new to any kind of multi driver setup (I've only messed with full range speakers in the past).

I should clarify, I guess I'm not just missing midbass but also bass. The stuff from 50-100. I just feel the 6.5's aren't very impactful. Most reviews of the TM65's say they'll knock your socks off. I'm being careful with the gain since that PPI will give them 300watts at 2ohms (they're DVC). Maybe I've got my tweet gains up too high (or low) during calibration.


----------



## Lanson

Phase?


----------



## kaigoss69

fourthmeal said:


> Phase?


That would be my guess as well!


----------



## bigjeep127

kaigoss69 said:


> That would be my guess as well!


Forgive my noob question but I assume yall are talking about a polarity issue regarding the connection of the speakers (or rca cables)?

I was extremely meticulous during my installation, but I should note that the reason I'm meticulous is because I can also be absent minded.

Any good (quick) way to verify polarity of wiring? I know that you can take the negative and ground it and if the speaker still plays you're good.


----------



## Pseudonym

ok, quick question before i install my new ms8. 

im using an aftermarket head unit that leads to my aftermarket 5 channel amp. im looking to add the ms8 in between the 2 to work its magic. im assuming just run 2 channel rca from the hu to the ms8 and then run 6 channel rca's from the ms8 to my amp?

the setup is an alpine 9835 to a helix 5 channels amp running tweeters on 2 channels, mids on 2 channels, and 1 sub on the 5th. does this right to everyone? seems like a way easier option than doing the whole high level input/output method. any benefit to doing one way over the other and would it be worth it in my scenario? 

sorry for such a basic question, but im not gonna spend another 2 hours digging through this thread and the hundreds of others that google throws at me.


----------



## JVD240

Yep. Stereo full range signal is all you need from the head unit.


----------



## Pseudonym

goddamn, i was in the process of editing my post for grammatical errors when you answered my question. thanks a ton.


----------



## gumbeelee

Pseudonym said:


> goddamn, i was in the process of editing my post for grammatical errors when you answered my question. thanks a ton.


Thou shall not use the lords name in vain..keep it clean, thank you


----------



## bigjeep127

gumbeelee said:


> Thou shall not use the lords name in vain..keep it clean, thank you


lulz


----------



## Lanson

Dafuq was that?

Bigjeep127, phase means polarity (either acoustic or electric..meaning it could be because of a swapped wire or it could be because your car and listening position is causing a null acoustically) could be causing mass-cancellation between the front woofers. You can almost hear it in your ears, like there's pressure in the eardrum but the response is weak. Easiest way to prove is to balance full right or left, and if the bass response increases then you should swap polarity on one of the drivers and see how it sounds. I like to use barrier strips with fork terminal connectors on my wires, for just this reason. 

The TM65 mids are monsters of midbass by all accounts, so you should have zero issues if phase is right.


----------



## Weightless

gumbeelee said:


> Thou shall not use the lords name in vain..keep it clean, thank you


How do you know it was your god that he was damning?


----------



## bigjeep127

Weightless said:


> How do you know it was your god that he was damning?


Zeusdammit, you're right!


----------



## bigjeep127

fourthmeal said:


> Dafuq was that?
> 
> Bigjeep127, phase means polarity (either acoustic or electric..meaning it could be because of a swapped wire or it could be because your car and listening position is causing a null acoustically) could be causing mass-cancellation between the front woofers. You can almost hear it in your ears, like there's pressure in the eardrum but the response is weak. Easiest way to prove is to balance full right or left, and if the bass response increases then you should swap polarity on one of the drivers and see how it sounds. I like to use barrier strips with fork terminal connectors on my wires, for just this reason.
> 
> The TM65 mids are monsters of midbass by all accounts, so you should have zero issues if phase is right.


Thanks, looks like I've got some playing around ahead of me. Any experience with this thing? Just want to confirm I've got everything hooked up right.

Amazon.com: PAC TL-PTG2 Tone Generator and Speaker Polarity Tester with RCA Cable Tester: Car Electronics


----------



## MetricMuscle

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sure--
> 3-way in the front doors...tweeter, 3" mid and dual-coil 6"
> 2-way center...tweeter and dual coil 6"
> 2-way in rear doors...tweeter and dual coil 6"
> 2-way in the rear deck...tweeter and 3"
> 2 10" woofers in the rear deck (IB).
> 
> Hmmm...that's 23 channels. I guess I have an extra unused channel somewhere.
> Everything but the subs are driven by 20-watt ICs.


So, I've been pondering this arrangement and came to the conclusion that a mid covering just 1KHz up to 3KHz could easily be smaller than a 3"er. What would the downside be to using a smaller mid to cover 1KHz to 3KHz? Like say a 2" Aura Whisper?

Also, Andy says he used a bunch of 20watt IC amp channels to power everything except for the subs.
What are our choices for small wattage, cost effective, multi channel IC amps?


----------



## Elgrosso

MetricMuscle said:


> So, I've been pondering this arrangement and came to the conclusion that a mid covering just 1KHz up to 3KHz could easily be smaller than a 3"er. What would the downside be to using a smaller mid to cover 1KHz to 3KHz? Like say a 2" Aura Whisper?


If distortion, FR and sensitivity are ok I guess why not.
But I didn't have much success with all small raw drivers I tried from PE.
Maybe because none were 2 ohms?
They were certainly ok for low volume though.



> Also, Andy says he used a bunch of 20watt IC amp channels to power everything except for the subs.
> What are our choices for small wattage, cost effective, multi channel IC amps?


What's IC amp? All regular class D don't have integrated circuit?


----------



## MetricMuscle

Elgrosso said:


> If distortion, FR and sensitivity are ok I guess why not.
> But I didn't have much success with all small raw drivers I tried from PE.
> Maybe because none were 2 ohms?
> They were certainly ok for low volume though.


Were you running these small drivers just from 1KHz to 3Khz?
I wouldn't think a little 2" full range driver could sound very loud either but from 1KHz up is a different story.





Elgrosso said:


> What's IC amp? All regular class D don't have integrated circuit?


I'm not sure what Andy was using exactly.
Ok, let me ask the question in a different way.
What are our choices in a small multi-channel 20watt per channel class D amplifier with built in 24db/octave crossovers?
.....or how could we go about making up one ourselves if this is how Andy did it?


----------



## Arthur71

The ms-8 itself provides 20/30 Watt RMS per channel for 4/2 Ohm loads. So only for a SW you need an external amp and maybe for the mid bass woofers in the front doors.


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met behulp van Tapatalk


----------



## Elgrosso

MetricMuscle said:


> Were you running these small drivers just from 1KHz to 3Khz?
> I wouldn't think a little 2" full range driver could sound very loud either but from 1KHz up is a different story.


Lower, like 350Hz mini and 500/800/1K and up without tweeter.
as a quick test in my other car with the stock system (maybe 20w/ch).
So nothing optimized, no enclosure, not really clean mount etc.
The two pair of 2" I tried had really too much distortion when pushed. I kept the faital, but they're 3" and have high sensitivity.



MetricMuscle said:


> I'm not sure what Andy was using exactly.
> Ok, let me ask the question in a different way.
> What are our choices in a small multi-channel 20watt per channel class D amplifier with built in 24db/octave crossovers?
> .....or how could we go about making up one ourselves if this is how Andy did it?


Wow diy amps  
Except all the 4/5 ch compact like clarion/kenwood/alpine etc I can't see any aftermarket low power multichannels, do they exist?



Arthur71 said:


> The ms-8 itself provides 20/30 Watt RMS per channel for 4/2 Ohm loads. So only for a SW you need an external amp and maybe for the mid bass woofers in the front doors.
> 
> Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met behulp van Tapatalk


Yep, and just add a second ms8 for more powered channels


----------



## crazhorse

Guess my ms8 is toast.... I have been recalibrating to try and fix a siblance issue with different xover points etc. Finished the calibrating process and it will play fine then the right side will go to static and fade out and you can hear a buzzing sound. I tried a different amp no change, switched from the main inputs to aux no change, ran inputs from head unit direct to the amp and no fade out to static and buzz.


----------



## Pseudonym

Please tell me that's uncommon


----------



## nanohead

Pseudonym said:


> Please tell me that's uncommon



I had a similar experience with my first unit. It croaked about 20 days after the warranty period (of course). I lost an entire channel pair. But I liked it enough to by another used unit of ebay, and after a number of calibrations, it sounds great again.

Sorry you're unit roached itself


----------



## fahadco80

Hi Guys,

I need some help on my settings, I will receive my MS-8, MS-A1004 and MS-A5001 very soon. DSP and the amps each comes with its own Xovers and slopes settings Do I have to start with the MS-8 while all the amps parameters set to minimum.

I read all the three devices manuals, but nothing says how to setup Xovers on MS-8 while using there own amps (JBL) and read the amps manuals and nothing mentioned regarding the MS-8 as well.

One more thing, the MS-8 has its own setup CD and each amp has its own CD too..

How can I do that?

Please advice

Regards

Fahad


----------



## nanohead

fahadco80 said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I need some help on my settings, I will receive my MS-8, MS-A1004 and MS-A5001 very soon. DSP and the amps each comes with its own Xovers and slopes settings Do I have to start with the MS-8 while all the amps parameters set to minimum.
> 
> I read all the three devices manuals, but nothing says how to setup Xovers on MS-8 while using there own amps (JBL) and read the amps manuals and nothing mentioned regarding the MS-8 as well.
> 
> One more thing, the MS-8 has its own setup CD and each amp has its own CD too..
> 
> How can I do that?
> 
> Please advice
> 
> Regards
> 
> Fahad


You need to set the amps as straight through. No filters on the amps at all. Let the MS-8 do all the filtering. Also, you'll need the CD for the MS-8 if you're attaching speaker level into the MS-8 I believe. If you're using an aftermarket head unit, or otherwise connecting low level (RCA), then the MS-8 generates is own test tones.

When you get the whole thing set up, you then use the MS-8 to set up the xovers/slopes, and when you run the calibration routine, it sets up speaker levels and time alignment. 

The things you'll need to set are amp gain levels, and potentially, subwoofer subsonic filter depending on how your sub is set up.


----------



## fahadco80

nanohead said:


> You need to set the amps as straight through. No filters on the amps at all. Let the MS-8 do all the filtering. Also, you'll need the CD for the MS-8 if you're attaching speaker level into the MS-8 I believe. If you're using an aftermarket head unit, or otherwise connecting low level (RCA), then the MS-8 generates is own test tones.
> 
> When you get the whole thing set up, you then use the MS-8 to set up the xovers/slopes, and when you run the calibration routine, it sets up speaker levels and time alignment.
> 
> The things you'll need to set are amp gain levels, and potentially, subwoofer subsonic filter depending on how your sub is set up.


Thanks a lot for the explanation,

Does it matter if I am using the speaker level or line level? cause I am planning to use my 4 signals line level thats coming from my OEM HU.

And regarding setting the amps with no filters, did you mean the LP and HP filters? what about the Xovers and slopes on the amps? they works by numbers with lots of choices, what setting do I have to choose?

Last, the MS-8 CD, you mentioned to use the MS-8 CD, so I do not have to use the CD's that comes with the JBL amps at all?

Thanks again 

Fahad


----------



## nanohead

fahadco80 said:


> Thanks a lot for the explanation,
> 
> Does it matter if I am using the speaker level or line level? cause I am planning to use my 4 signals line level thats coming from my OEM HU.
> 
> And regarding setting the amps with no filters, did you mean the LP and HP filters? what about the Xovers and slopes on the amps? they works by numbers with lots of choices, what setting do I have to choose?
> 
> Last, the MS-8 CD, you mentioned to use the MS-8 CD, so I do not have to use the CD's that comes with the JBL amps at all?
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> Fahad


It shouldn't matter if you do line level or speaker level, although you use different connectors on the MS-8 to connect them. I've never done speaker level, so maybe others can comment. 

As far as the filters, yes, HP/LP. Just make sure that the xover/slopes are set to Off. You do all the filtering on the MS-8, the amps are just amps.

As far as the sub amp, you would do the same. Just set everything to off, if you can. I'm not too familiar with JBL amps, but they are digitally configured via a display. I looked at the 4 channel amps manual, and you can set everything to Off . Didn't look at the sub amp, and not sure if you can turn everything Off(LP and subsonic). If you can, then do that. If not, make sure you set it the same as the LP and subsonic numbers on the MS-8 so there's no conflict (ie, LP [email protected], subsonic 20hz, ..these are example numbers not necessarily the numbers you should use)

As far as the CDs with the amps, I'm not sure what they do, but likely, as you'll use the MS-8 for everything, and the Amps will be set with no filters at all, you probably won't need them at all


----------



## kaigoss69

fahadco80 said:


> Thanks a lot for the explanation,
> 
> Does it matter if I am using the speaker level or line level? cause I am planning to use my 4 signals line level thats coming from my OEM HU.
> 
> And regarding setting the amps with no filters, did you mean the LP and HP filters? what about the Xovers and slopes on the amps? they works by numbers with lots of choices, what setting do I have to choose?
> 
> Last, the MS-8 CD, you mentioned to use the MS-8 CD, so I do not have to use the CD's that comes with the JBL amps at all?
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> Fahad


Do not use the CDs that come with the amps, just the MS-8 CD in case your OEM signal is not flat or it contains processing. The crossover settings you choose during MS-8 set-up ENTIRELY depend on your set-up. Post your speakers and their locations, and we can give you some settings to start with.

Edit: Set the gains on all the amps to "2 Volts" as a starting point.


----------



## FordEscape

fahadco80 said:


> ....I need some help on my settings, I will receive my MS-8, MS-A1004 and MS-A5001 very soon. DSP and the amps each comes with its own Xovers and slopes settings Do I have to start with the MS-8 while all the amps parameters set to minimum........Fahad


I'd been running my MS8 for awhile when I recently added the JBL MS amps and had similar questions .... see the early part of this thread http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...004-specific-setup-questions.html#post2364945

To summarize including what's already been said above:
1. If you have line-level outputs from your HU, use those into the MS8 RCA inputs; if not, use the harness/plug supplied with the MS8 and connect to your HU speaker level outputs. Either method is accommodated by MS8, just don't try to put HU speaker-out to MS8 RCA-in or vice-versa.

2. Before calibrating the MS8, turn on the MS amps and set all the filters to "OFF", that's the last choice after 20kHz on the list of filter levels as you scroll thru the menu. When you set the filters on the amps to "OFF" the slopes are moot/disabled, that's what you want.

3. There's not an obvious way to set the MS amp gains to 2v which the MS8 wants. The advice I got on the linked thread worked perfect: set the 3-position "Input Selector Switch" to "LO" and turn the slotted level-adjustment dial (gain) to min (fully counterclockwise). Do step 2 & 3 for all channels on all the MS amps.

4. You will NOT use the MS amp calibration CD at all .... steps 2&3 above have set the required input levels already.

5. Proceed per MS8 Input Setup instructions with Calibration/Setup; use the MS8 calibration CD since you are connecting to an OEM head unit. As kaigoss69 mentioned, the xo & slope settings for the MS8 depend entirely on your situation, that's a separate issue others can help with if you post more about your system. FWIW the 'default' recommendations in the MS8 instructions are exactly what MS8 prime developer/guru Andy Wehmeyer repeats as his default starting-point recommendations in this forum for most OEM setups .... they aren't a bad starting point.

*One critical note .... when you finish the acoustic calibration for the last seating position you calibrate, unplug the MS8 mic ('headset') from the MS8 'mic' jack BEFORE you choose "done>done" after your last seating position calibration run.* That's not clear in the manual but is often stated earlier in this long thread as a way to avoid a bad situation known as 'jet engine noise'; make a note in your MS8 manual and be sure to do that each time you re-run the acoustic calibration.

Hope That Helps.


----------



## fahadco80

kaigoss69 said:


> Do not use the CDs that come with the amps, just the MS-8 CD in case your OEM signal is not flat or it contains processing. The crossover settings you choose during MS-8 set-up ENTIRELY depend on your set-up. Post your speakers and their locations, and we can give you some settings to start with.
> 
> Edit: Set the gains on all the amps to "2 Volts" as a starting point.


My speakers specs are below:

Subs: 2x HERTZ ENERGY ES200.5 (factory location) 200 RMS
Centre: 1x HERTZ HI-ENERGY HL 70 (factory location) 50 RMS
Rear Deck: pair HERTZ DCX87.3 (factory location) 30 RMS
Rear Sides: pair HERTZ HCX 690 (new fabricated location) 130 RMS
Doors: pair HERTZ HSK 163 (3 WAY) (factory location) 150 RMS

The subs will be parallel (I think that would be 2 Ohms) and the rear shelf and sides will be parallel too, the front mids/tweeters will be passive and the midbass will be active.

Attached a diagram of whats in my mind 

Thanks a lot for your help.


----------



## fahadco80

FordEscape said:


> I'd been running my MS8 for awhile when I recently added the JBL MS amps and had similar questions .... see the early part of this thread http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...004-specific-setup-questions.html#post2364945
> 
> To summarize including what's already been said above:
> 1. If you have line-level outputs from your HU, use those into the MS8 RCA inputs; if not, use the harness/plug supplied with the MS8 and connect to your HU speaker level outputs. Either method is accommodated by MS8, just don't try to put HU speaker-out to MS8 RCA-in or vice-versa.
> 
> 2. Before calibrating the MS8, turn on the MS amps and set all the filters to "OFF", that's the last choice after 20kHz on the list of filter levels as you scroll thru the menu. When you set the filters on the amps to "OFF" the slopes are moot/disabled, that's what you want.
> 
> 3. There's not an obvious way to set the MS amp gains to 2v which the MS8 wants. The advice I got on the linked thread worked perfect: set the 3-position "Input Selector Switch" to "LO" and turn the slotted level-adjustment dial (gain) to min (fully counterclockwise). Do step 2 & 3 for all channels on all the MS amps.
> 
> 4. You will NOT use the MS amp calibration CD at all .... steps 2&3 above have set the required input levels already.
> 
> 5. Proceed per MS8 Input Setup instructions with Calibration/Setup; use the MS8 calibration CD since you are connecting to an OEM head unit. As kaigoss69 mentioned, the xo & slope settings for the MS8 depend entirely on your situation, that's a separate issue others can help with if you post more about your system. FWIW the 'default' recommendations in the MS8 instructions are exactly what MS8 prime developer/guru Andy Wehmeyer repeats as his default starting-point recommendations in this forum for most OEM setups .... they aren't a bad starting point.
> 
> *One critical note .... when you finish the acoustic calibration for the last seating position you calibrate, unplug the MS8 mic ('headset') from the MS8 'mic' jack BEFORE you choose "done>done" after your last seating position calibration run.* That's not clear in the manual but is often stated earlier in this long thread as a way to avoid a bad situation known as 'jet engine noise'; make a note in your MS8 manual and be sure to do that each time you re-run the acoustic calibration.
> 
> Hope That Helps.


Wow, thats more than help  

I really appreciate your step by step, this is exactly what I was looking for 

Thanks a lot


----------



## t3sn4f2

FordEscape said:


> *One critical note .... when you finish the acoustic calibration for the last seating position you calibrate, unplug the MS8 mic ('headset') from the MS8 'mic' jack BEFORE you choose "done>done" after your last seating position calibration run.* That's not clear in the manual but is often stated earlier in this long thread as a way to avoid a bad situation known as 'jet engine noise'; make a note in your MS8 manual and be sure to do that each time you re-run the acoustic calibration.
> 
> Hope That Helps.


And just as important, don't do too many calibrations without doing a "restore to default" every once in a while. Andy's mentioned that that is or could be the reason for the jet engine noise/speaker frying problem some people have after they have finished setting things up and are listening normally everyday. Personally I would do it every time before I recalibrate. Why not right, it's fast enough not be an inconvenience.


----------



## Elgrosso

About the mic since I forgot it few times, now to be sure here's what I do:
Cal, press done, power off, unplug mic from extension, power on.
And reset every 10 cal maybe, every cal would be too much burden.
No issue since 2 yrs


----------



## Wy2quiet

bigjeep127 said:


> Anyone having issues getting no midbass even without a sub installed? I've tried looking through this thread and all midbass issues seem to involve a sub.
> 
> Stereo Integrity TM65
> Vifa NE25VTS
> PPI P900.4
> 
> 50,2500 xovers at 24dB
> 
> Should I go lower, like 2000? Will that hurt the Vifa tweet?
> 
> Doors are VERY well deadened and sealed.


identical problem here...did you figure it out? same woofers, deadened doors.


----------



## bigjeep127

Wy2quiet said:


> identical problem here...did you figure it out? same woofers, deadened doors.


I haven't solved it yet but I have gotten significantly more midbass and bass than I was getting before. I calibrated with the ms-8 at -40db and made sure to match the tweeter and mid output levels as close as I could get them by ear. Amp gain is probably 40% on the mids 30% on the tweets. My ppi900.4 would give the mids 300rms at full (2ohm) and 150rms to the tweets at full. I had to bump up the "bass" level on the ms-8 tone settings to 3/4. 

I feel like there should still be more. One thing I've noticed tho is that the tm65s are now sounding much better (after about 2 hours of playing).


----------



## bigjeep127

I tried going to 2000 on the crossover and my tweets sounded like they were "tapping" a bit and then I heard a high pitched tone coming from them. I shut it down and recalibrated and now everything is fine. Is that a symptom of an improper tweeter crossover or does that mean I should be worried about my ms8?


----------



## percy072

Wy2quiet said:


> identical problem here...did you figure it out? same woofers, deadened doors.


I've found it makes a big difference experimenting with gain settings before and after running a calibration (especially for the sub!!) helps alot with the final results.

Everything is amp'd including my rear's so it's alot of trial and error. The suggested setting everything to 2V just did not work for me so after many many calibrations trying slightly different pre/post gains I'm getting very good results.

ie: set the gains for mids lower than tweeters...run calibration, then dial up the mids and lower the tweet's etc...

I also found I had to set the sub gain way up so the MS-8 can "hear it" during the tone sweep, then dial it back post calibration. trial and error...bit of a PIA


----------



## percy072

x-overs are all fairly normal...75hz @ 24db, 2700hz @ 24db, but I'am using the low pass on amp to help choke off the sub @ closer to 63hz


----------



## joaozelo

Andy tried to help me, but unfortunately the person he asked to call me, did not. Luckily my cousin is going to the US tomorrow and JBL sent me a authorization to send back the processor and make the exchange. The problem now will be to bring back. My cousin returns here to three months.


----------



## MetricMuscle

Arthur71 said:


> The ms-8 itself provides 20/30 Watt RMS per channel for 4/2 Ohm loads. So only for a SW you need an external amp and maybe for the mid bass woofers in the front doors.


Yes, I am aware of this.
However, if I'm running active 3-way fronts, active 2-way sides and a subwoofer, the only drivers I'm able to run on MS-8 power would be the front mid-bass and subwoofer, as they have their own channel.




Elgrosso said:


> Lower, like 350Hz mini and 500/800/1K and up without tweeter.
> as a quick test in my other car with the stock system (maybe 20w/ch).
> So nothing optimized, no enclosure, not really clean mount etc.
> The two pair of 2" I tried had really too much distortion when pushed. I kept the faital, but they're 3" and have high sensitivity.


If crossing lower than 1KHz then I wouldn't be wondering about using 2".
No enclosure would be needed other than to separate the front from the back.



Elgrosso said:


> Wow diy amps
> Except all the 4/5 ch compact like clarion/kenwood/alpine etc I can't see any aftermarket low power multichannels, do they exist?


BikeTronics comes to mind as well as the plethora of small "IC" amps all over eBay using an LM1875.
NE5532 LM1875 IC 20W 2 40W Audio Subwoofer Amplifier Assembled Board | eBay

Mono 25W Audio Amplifier Module Board Based on LM1875 | eBay



FordEscape said:


> I'd been running my MS8 for awhile when I recently added the JBL MS amps and had similar questions .... see the early part of this thread http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...004-specific-setup-questions.html#post2364945
> 
> To summarize including what's already been said above:
> 1. If you have line-level outputs from your HU, use those into the MS8 RCA inputs; if not, use the harness/plug supplied with the MS8 and connect to your HU speaker level outputs. Either method is accommodated by MS8, just don't try to put HU speaker-out to MS8 RCA-in or vice-versa.
> 
> 2. Before calibrating the MS8, turn on the MS amps and set all the filters to "OFF", that's the last choice after 20kHz on the list of filter levels as you scroll thru the menu. When you set the filters on the amps to "OFF" the slopes are moot/disabled, that's what you want.
> 
> 3. There's not an obvious way to set the MS amp gains to 2v which the MS8 wants. The advice I got on the linked thread worked perfect: set the 3-position "Input Selector Switch" to "LO" and turn the slotted level-adjustment dial (gain) to min (fully counterclockwise). Do step 2 & 3 for all channels on all the MS amps.
> 
> 4. You will NOT use the MS amp calibration CD at all .... steps 2&3 above have set the required input levels already.
> 
> 5. Proceed per MS8 Input Setup instructions with Calibration/Setup; use the MS8 calibration CD since you are connecting to an OEM head unit. As kaigoss69 mentioned, the xo & slope settings for the MS8 depend entirely on your situation, that's a separate issue others can help with if you post more about your system. FWIW the 'default' recommendations in the MS8 instructions are exactly what MS8 prime developer/guru Andy Wehmeyer repeats as his default starting-point recommendations in this forum for most OEM setups .... they aren't a bad starting point.
> 
> *One critical note .... when you finish the acoustic calibration for the last seating position you calibrate, unplug the MS8 mic ('headset') from the MS8 'mic' jack BEFORE you choose "done>done" after your last seating position calibration run.* That's not clear in the manual but is often stated earlier in this long thread as a way to avoid a bad situation known as 'jet engine noise'; make a note in your MS8 manual and be sure to do that each time you re-run the acoustic calibration.
> 
> Hope That Helps.


This would only be if running passive crossovers, correct?
If using one of the MS-A1004 amps to run mid and tweeters and using the amps internal active crossover, would I want to send full frequency to my tweeters?
Or is it low enough not to matter?


----------



## FordEscape

MetricMuscle said:


> ....This would only be if running passive crossovers, correct?
> If using one of the MS-A1004 amps to run mid and tweeters and using the amps internal active crossover, would I want to send full frequency to my tweeters?
> Or is it low enough not to matter?


You need to protect your tweeters so they do not get full-range sound. Some options for that:

1. dedicated tweeter channel from MS8 to MS amp with appropriate xo set on MS8 (MS8 as active tweeter xo, no filter on MS amp)

2. 1 channel from MS8 to MS amp driving each mid+tweeter pair with a passive xo appropriately set between the two speakers (HP on MS8 set for the mid driver, no filter on MS amp)

3. 1 channel from MS8 to MS amp where the mid and tweeter is split to two channels out of the MS amp. Each MS amp channel is then set with filters appropriate to protect the driver on that channel.


----------



## Elgrosso

MetricMuscle said:


> If crossing lower than 1KHz then I wouldn't be wondering about using 2".
> No enclosure would be needed other than to separate the front from the back.


Agree, but the idea was just to compare them under same conditions (and that can fit in the dashboard oem holes)
I was more concerned about the global FR shape, and potential volume.



MetricMuscle said:


> BikeTronics comes to mind as well as the plethora of small "IC" amps all over eBay using an LM1875.
> NE5532 LM1875 IC 20W 2 40W Audio Subwoofer Amplifier Assembled Board | eBay
> Mono 25W Audio Amplifier Module Board Based on LM1875 | eBay


That's cool, I always wondered why so few people use plate amps in car, could give a neat install.
Maybe the added burden about the PSU, dc/dc, reliability etc?


----------



## MetricMuscle

FordEscape said:


> You need to protect your tweeters so they do not get full-range sound. Some options for that:
> 
> *3. 1 channel from MS8 to MS amp where the mid and tweeter is split to two channels out of the MS amp. Each MS amp channel is then set with filters appropriate to protect the driver on that channel.*


I'll be using option 3 for my front mid/tweeter and rear mid tweeter.
So, to be clear on how to go about setting the input gain,
- Turn the pot fully counter clockwise.
- Keep the crossover settings on the MS-A1004 amp since it gets just one channel per side from MS-8 and handles the mid/tweeter at 3KHz @ 24db slope.

How should I go about setting my output gain?

I will have a cap on the tweeter for safety sake.



Elgrosso said:


> Agree, but the idea was just to compare them under same conditions (and that can fit in the dashboard oem holes)
> I was more concerned about the global FR shape, and potential volume.
> 
> 
> 
> That's cool, I always wondered why so few people use plate amps in car, could give a neat install.
> Maybe the added burden about the PSU, dc/dc, reliability etc?


When Andy said he was using 24 channels of 20-watt IC amps I wondered how he went about doing this. I'd love to be able to use some of the amplified outputs from my MS-8 but there aren't enough of them to work in my arrangement. 

We sure do need an MS-17 with 14 of the channels amplified. The other 3 would be for 2 mid-bass and 1 subwoofer.


----------



## Elgrosso

MetricMuscle said:


> - Turn the pot fully counter clockwise.
> - Keep the crossover settings on the MS-A1004 amp since it gets just one channel per side from MS-8 and handles the mid/tweeter at 3KHz @ 24db slope.
> 
> How should I go about setting my output gain?
> 
> I will have a cap on the tweeter for safety sake.


Yep, and you can start simple, at 50 for all as a baseline maybe (1 step = 0.5db).
If drivers' sensitivities are about the same the ms8 should work fine.
It has a lot of headroom, I've seen it boosting or cutting about 15db in some large areas.
But if you can help it by preparing a good level match you should get even better results.

Then once you got the right relative settings, you could increase everything by the same amount (till the higher one reach 80 if you need LOUD ).

(but there's a lot more to say about all this)




MetricMuscle said:


> When Andy said he was using 24 channels of 20-watt IC amps I wondered how he went about doing this. I'd love to be able to use some of the amplified outputs from my MS-8 but there aren't enough of them to work in my arrangement.
> 
> We sure do need an MS-17 with 14 of the channels amplified. The other 3 would be for 2 mid-bass and 1 subwoofer.


Well, 16 not enough?


----------



## FordEscape

Elgrosso said:


> ....But if you can help it by preparing a good level match you should get even better results.....


This by tweaking MS amp output levels during the MS8 Output Diagnostics pink noise test, correct?

And the goal is to get a good level match at the listening position, not at a fixed on-axis distance the same for each driver, correct?


----------



## Elgrosso

FordEscape said:


> This by tweaking MS amp output levels during the MS8 Output Diagnostics pink noise test, correct?
> 
> And the goal is to get a good level match at the listening position, not at a fixed on-axis distance the same for each driver, correct?


Yes I forgot about this menu, an spl meter or an app is good enough (don't forget the target, ms8 won't try to make it flat, but will reach for the jbl curve).
And yes adapt the measure to your listening position(s), I had more difference between L&R than between drivers' sizes for ex.
(in case your amp lay out also allows independent output adjustment per side).

But now I use Rew for more precision (I had inconsistent results with the app).
Measurements of L&R with dsp ON/OFF to see what it's trying to do. And then few back & forth to the amps output to help it.
But it's still WIP...


----------



## Pseudonym

So I installed my ms8 today and hit a few snags. I have 2 channels rca hookup from the front channels of my alpine 9835 going to the first 2 inputs on the ms8. I then have the outputs leading to a helix 5 channel amp. 1/2 from the ms8 to the amp, 3/4 from ms8 to amp, 7/8 from ms8 to the sub channel on the amp. 

I know I don't need to do the input setup but I tried anyway and got "none" no matter the volume level from the hu. I skipped this part since it isn't necessary anyway and did the crossover setup, then sub setup which I chose 2. I have one idmax 10 playing IB and figured since I'm using rca's to connect from the ms8 to the amp, I needed to use both left and right (channels 7&8) to connect to my amp. Since I'm only using a 2 way setup (mid/tweet) I only set up the front speakers, no center, sides, or rears. 

During the output diagnostics the left and right channels played fine but I had zero output when checking the sub. I ran the calibration anyway and after all was finished I had no sound coming from any input on the hu. Tried different CDs and using the aux for my phone and nothing. The 9835 has a switch on it that puts it in 2 way or 3 way active mode. I tried both assuming the 3 way mode seperated the signals in the rca connections and still got nothing. What am I doing wrong?


----------



## Pseudonym

Update
I bypassed the HU altogether and ran an aux cable from my trunk and saw that my amp was set to 4ch instead of 5ch. So I reran the setup and was finally able to get some sound from the sub. Using my phone I finally got to hear the difference and I'm blown away. I just cant figure out what the problem with my HU is. It worked fine before installing the ms8. So for now, I'm thinking I'll go with my phone as the source until I get some ideas on how to fix the issue and if I cant fix it, I'll just sell the HU and do a permanent install for the ms8's display.

also, i hear abit of noise before i even plug the phone in. just sounds like white noise and im wondering if this could be because the gains are too high? also, if they were, does the ms8 keep things from clipping?


----------



## nanohead

You have to set the head unit to just regular (not 2 way or 3 way active). It needs to be set to send a full range signal through 1 set of RCAs. You should have everything in the head unit set to full/through or whatever their nomenclature is for zero filters. Also, no EQ in the head unit. Everything to flat, everywhere. 

The problem likely is that you're filtering what the head unit is sending


----------



## Pseudonym

I don't think there's a way to set it to "regular". I think the closest thing to that is that 2 and 3 way setting I was talking about.


----------



## nanohead

I looked in the manual. Its really confusing, You should set the the front high range to 20db HPF, and the slope to Flat @0db in 2 way mode. That should pass the entire spectrum through the front channel with no filtering.

Also, all time correction should be set to 0.

The menu structure is definitely confusing.....


----------



## Pseudonym

Yea it's all set that way. I'm only essentially using it for the volume knob if I were to keep it since I don't use the radio or CD player so I may as well remove it and set up the ms8's display in its place. Just seems to make more sense.


----------



## percy072

This is starting to get very irritating... 

Just installed a new Arc 1100.5, re-calibrate and for whatever reason the final result is me getting blown out of the car by the subwoofer?!? I thought I had that figured out by dialing up the gain on the sub...re-calibrate then dial the sub gain back down.

Seems like the MS-8 is constantly trying to boost the sub. I feel I've exhausted everything I can think of to get the sub to blend better...even with the amp gain and the sub level on the MS-8 controller set to minimum, it's still way too much. 

Anyone suggest any work arounds for this issue?


----------



## brumledb

percy072 said:


> This is starting to get very irritating...
> 
> Just installed a new Arc 1100.5, re-calibrate and for whatever reason the final result is me getting blown out of the car by the subwoofer?!? I thought I had that figured out by dialing up the gain on the sub...re-calibrate then dial the sub gain back down.
> 
> Seems like the MS-8 is constantly trying to boost the sub. I feel I've exhausted everything I can think of to get the sub to blend better...even with the amp gain and the sub level on the MS-8 controller set to minimum, it's still way too much.
> 
> Anyone suggest any work arounds for this issue?


Kaigoss mod?


----------



## 1lowlife

percy072 said:


> This is starting to get very irritating...
> 
> Just installed a new Arc 1100.5, re-calibrate and for whatever reason the final result is me getting blown out of the car by the subwoofer?!? I thought I had that figured out by dialing up the gain on the sub...re-calibrate then dial the sub gain back down.
> 
> Seems like the MS-8 is constantly trying to boost the sub. I feel I've exhausted everything I can think of to get the sub to blend better...even with the amp gain and the sub level on the MS-8 controller set to minimum, it's still way too much.
> 
> Anyone suggest any work arounds for this issue?


During calibration, set your sub amp gain and knob all the way to a minimum.
That is what I did on my Alpine PDX V-9..

I just looked at your amp.
Does it have a gain knob?










WTF?
If not, why did you buy it?


----------



## Lanson

Its on the top.

If you're getting poor integration with the sub, consider just connecting one output for the sub. Not sure why it works, but for me it did. Also, mess around with more conservative crossover points. In one build, I had to use more shallow slopes (down to 2nd order) on the sub to mid cross point, and had to use a conservative 90hz cross. That worked out. If you are in doubt, try running a calibration without the sub at all and see if your drivers can play as low as you think.


Also the "sub" level on the sub isn't what you think. It is a bass shelf. It handles 60hz and down, all drivers that can play that low. 

Consider setting your sub level in the middle for calibration (on the amp) and then after calibration, set it down on the amp so you're happy. But I think if you use one RCA, you'll get what you want.





1lowlife said:


> During calibration, set your sub amp gain and knob all the way to a minimum.
> That is what I did on my Alpine PDX V-9..
> 
> I just looked at your amp.
> Does it have a gain knob?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WTF?
> If not, why did you buy it?


----------



## wrager

Well I have been pretty happy with MS8 set up for the last few months. Yesterday I lost all/any sub. I have the Alpine MRV-V500. The speakers running off the amp are fine so It's not an amp issue. What could happen with the MS8 to loose my sub output? I have made no changes at all lately.


----------



## Lanson

Man, someone needs to get into the business of repairing these, because there appears to be a demand coming. If I knew a lick about IC's and such, I'd pony up but it is beyond my comprehension except for basic circuits like a passive crossover or a power supply.


----------



## Pseudonym

Are there other units on the market that do what this does? Is alpines imprint setup any better?

Side note, I'm currently running mine directly from my phone. Is the output voltage of an iPhone 6 enough or am I possibly hurting the ms8?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8554/the-iphone-6-review/11


----------



## wrager

I tried to do the complete calibration over again. No luck. It'sweird. last time I did the cal, there was no sub sweep. But everything worked fine. Same this time, no sub sweep, but no sub. Frustrated! My MiniDSP 2x4 and DDRC88A work as advertised for my theater.


----------



## Loudy

My sub comes and goes and sometimes I lose my right channel. Sometimes if I turn the volume up near maximum, the sub returns for a while. JBL says that it needs to be repaired at my expense and I have yet to do so.


----------



## percy072

fourthmeal said:


> Consider setting your sub level in the middle for calibration (on the amp) and then after calibration, set it down on the amp so you're happy. But I think if you use one RCA, you'll get what you want.


Spent a fair bit of time fart'n around with this thing...removed the "Y" splitter and just went with a single RCA input but still had same issue. 

Eventually found that setting gain to 3/4's on sub channel, I then re-calibrate at -20db (rather than the suggested -40db)...then dial the sub gain back down and use the amps LP filter set to roughly 80hz helped alot. 

Also found that level matching by ear (Front left, Front right, Rear left, Rear right) using the channel output test before running the acoustic measurement helps alot with the final result...

I was trying to set it up the same as with the old amp...but obviously new amp required me to start experimenting all over again to find a happy place


----------



## brumledb

Besides physically bypassing the ms8, is there any way to tell if the hiss in my speakers comes from the ms8 or my amp? The hiss is very noticeable when the gains are above 1/2 and then become less as I lower gains. If I were using RCA's as input to ms8 would simply bypass but since am using the high level input would be more of a headache to bypass to amp.

The amp was also new so I never used it before hooking up both it and the ms8.


----------



## wrager

I bought a refurbed unit, maybe that's the issue. I'm going to call JBL and plead my case. After all, I have 5 Crown amps and these huge JBL Cinema Array speakers, actively bi-amped. They better take care of me.


----------



## percy072

1lowlife said:


> During calibration, set your sub amp gain and knob all the way to a minimum.That is what I did on my Alpine PDX V-9..
> 
> I just looked at your amp.
> Does it have a gain knob?


Interesting...I have to do the complete opposite, gain has to be way up for the MS-8 to hear the sub during the tone sweep. 

I was finding that with the sub gain dialed down, the result was the MS-8 would boost the s**t out of it. I'm actually surprised this is not a more common issue...especially with the sub buried in a trunk?? Maybe it's just something with my car specifically?? dunno

Yeah...the gains are under the top cover plate, kind of a PIA.


----------



## thehatedguy

It's going to try to boost to fill holes in the response.

I always had my sub just barely audible during the sweeps, and the bass was pretty good.


----------



## wrager

Loudy said:


> My sub comes and goes and sometimes I lose my right channel. Sometimes if I turn the volume up near maximum, the sub returns for a while. JBL says that it needs to be repaired at my expense and I have yet to do so.


Yikes, that sux. I should still be under warranty.


----------



## talan7

I'm having problems with my system. Twice this week my MS8s volume went up to the max and wouldn't turn down even when I turned it down on the remote. The volume just kept going up. I could see the numbers go down. It scared the heck out of me. I quickly pressed mute on both instances to protect my speakers. Then after about 15-20 seconds I was able to turn the volume back down. What can be causing this, a power surge? 

Also, twice yesterday I couldn't get in the car. My key wouldn't work. I had to insert the key into the door. I couldn't start the vehicle by pushing the start button, no power at all. I thought it was the battery and have a uniden jumper. I hooked it up and immediately the power came back on both times and the car started. I took it to the dealer and they said I needed a new battery that they replaced under warranty. On my way to work this morning my volume went up again and wouldn't come back down. I was on the phone and when I pressed mute I ended the call. One of the other times I was on a call as well.


----------



## Lanson

Almost sounds like the remote (which is RF) is outputting the volume up signal on its own.

Which happened to me when I placed it in the center console and something fell on it. Boy that got loud in a hurry.



talan7 said:


> I'm having problems with my system. Twice this week my MS8s volume went up to the max and wouldn't turn down even when I turned it down on the remote. The volume just kept going up. I could see the numbers go down. It scared the heck out of me. I quickly pressed mute on both instances to protect my speakers. Then after about 15-20 seconds I was able to turn the volume back down. What can be causing this, a power surge?
> 
> Also, twice yesterday I couldn't get in the car. My key wouldn't work. I had to insert the key into the door. I couldn't start the vehicle by pushing the start button, no power at all. I thought it was the battery and have a uniden jumper. I hooked it up and immediately the power came back on both times and the car started. I took it to the dealer and they said I needed a new battery that they replaced under warranty. On my way to work this morning my volume went up again and wouldn't come back down. I was on the phone and when I pressed mute I ended the call. One of the other times I was on a call as well.


----------



## talan7

fourthmeal said:


> Almost sounds like the remote (which is RF) is outputting the volume up signal on its own.
> 
> Which happened to me when I placed it in the center console and something fell on it. Boy that got loud in a hurry.


I'll change the remote battery. Didn't think of that.


----------



## t3sn4f2

talan7 said:


> I'm having problems with my system. Twice this week my MS8s volume went up to the max and wouldn't turn down even when I turned it down on the remote. The volume just kept going up. I could see the numbers go down. It scared the heck out of me. I quickly pressed mute on both instances to protect my speakers. Then after about 15-20 seconds I was able to turn the volume back down. What can be causing this, a power surge?
> 
> Also, twice yesterday I couldn't get in the car. My key wouldn't work. I had to insert the key into the door. I couldn't start the vehicle by pushing the start button, no power at all. I thought it was the battery and have a uniden jumper. I hooked it up and immediately the power came back on both times and the car started. I took it to the dealer and they said I needed a new battery that they replaced under warranty. On my way to work this morning my volume went up again and wouldn't come back down. I was on the phone and when I pressed mute I ended the call. One of the other times I was on a call as well.


Yet another reason why I won't ever use my MS-8 unless I am able to do master volume control from the amps.


----------



## DuffmasterFresh

I have a noise problem and have had it forever. Still trying to fix it. I have a constant hiss in all of my speakers that doesn't change volume with the head unit. It is always the same level of hiss regardless if the engine is on or off. Music will drown out the hiss except when the music gets soft. My factory sound system had no hiss at all. I do get a little bit of alternator whine as well, but I have heard much worse than mine. 

I have my factory navigation unit feeding my JBL MS8 using low-level signal RCA's. Then the MS8 feeds a 4-channel and a mono amp. Both amps are quality JL Audio clones. The 4-channel amp feeds the front midrange and tweeters while the MS8's onboard amp feeds the rear coax speakers. Both amps have the gain set to minimum.

I unplugged the RCA's from the 4-channel amp and made mute plugs for all 4 channels. The hiss is still in the speakers (with engine off), so I know it's not from the HU or MS8.

I used a DMM to check my ground. Using some 10AWG wire, I connected my negative battery terminal to my DMM and the DMM to the ground point and I got .4 OHMs. I also checked the negative battery terminal and the alternator case and got 0.2 OHMs. I thought that was a bit weird, but it's a $15 radioshack DMM so who knows. 

My real question is this: How do I know if the hiss is from the amp noise floor or from something else? I have been chasing it forever... but maybe it's something I can't get rid of? What else can I try?

- Should I add a capacitor to the power wire to see if it can smooth out the current?
- I have a low power system and I use distro blocks to combine all power together and all ground together for ease of install. Using 4AWG Kicker Wire, well insulated. Is this the problem?
- Should I find a separate battery and connect the 4-channel amp directly to it, both pos and neg and rem wire? I'm afraid it might damage the amp when I connect it and it sparks.

Thanks for any advice, tips, and tricks. I have done a lot of google searching to try and test as many solutions as I could.


----------



## 14642

If you have hiss from the amp with no inputs connected and with muting plugs installed, then it's the amp.


----------



## maroon

So, I’m a brand new owner of a brand new MS-8. Maybe one of the last of the breed, if it has been EOLed.

Before putting it in, I had read most of this thread, and most of a lot of the other threads on the thing. I was excited by the potential, but more than a little worried by all the potential wrinkles.

My criteria were simple. I’m a music lover, not a car audio enthusiast. (Apologies, but…) I wanted the mostest, or close to it, but also the mostest for the leastest, in terms of time and effort. Or close to it. And quality, not quantity. My volume needs are modest.

And I was a little picky in terms of ‘mostest’. I’m a noob to car audio, but not to audio. I’m no “Golden Ears’ by any means, but I had spent a lot of time in front of a good set of near field studio monitors doing audio post for video.

I was putting in a pretty basic system: MS-8, Audisson SR4 amp, sub, new speakers, etc. Nothing fancy. (It’ll grow a bit, by and by) Install wasn’t exactly painless, but pretty easy. I had done a bunch of wading around in this forum and that gave me a whole toolbox full of solutions. 

Setup was trivially easy. I had a whole grab bag full of solutions ready, and the only ones I needed were setting up the sub as part of a 3 way front, and mucking with the sub gains a bit. (I did hit the “waiting…” screen for a long (heartstoppingly long) time but that was an RTFM error. (I had the cable on the remote reversed.)

Listening impressions?

Well, if you go all the way back to the beginning of this thread, and the MS-FAQ thread (waaay back!) you’ll find a whole lot of very experienced and knowledgeable (seemingly, anyway) audio folks trying it for the first time and being blown away by what it is and what it does.

That was me. Wow!

So, overall: Kudos for JBL for a great product.

A heartfelt thanks to Andy W. for being one of the team leaders, and for sticking with tech support through thick and thin- way past the call of duty, and way past where most people (I think) would’ve pulled the plug.

And thanks to all the persistent problem solvers who come and go throughout this thread. I’m a Happy Camper, not yet a perfectly happy camper. But thanks to all, the fixes aren’t mysteries.


----------



## FordEscape

I'd like to revisit the notion of level-setting with the hidden menu as mentioned by Kaigoss69 to help me ensure I'm understanding correctly ...


kaigoss69 said:


> Look guys, the absolute values for MS-8 calibration volume and amp gains mean nothing. In the end you need to make sure that
> 
> 1. The sweeps are at conversation volume
> 2. The sweeps between tweeter and midrange channels are all about the same volume (within 2-3 db)
> 3. The sweeps of dedicated midbass channels can be increased about 4-5 dB (I think this helps)
> 4. The sweeps of the subwoofer are very low volume (hear, but don't feel).
> 5. Use each speaker only in its usable frequency range (be conservative!).
> 
> .....<snip>...
> 
> The amp gains can be set with the MS-8 hidden menu through "output identification" where it plays pink noise through each channel separately. This is the best way to level match all the channels. For me, I set the MS-8 volume at -25, then shoot for around 75dB volume out of the mids and tweeters, measured at the driver head position. I set the midbass at 80, and the sub at 84. This works for me but your circumstances may be different.


I'm using an OEM HU, MS-8, 2x MS-1004 and 1x MS-5001 amps which have output level controls separate from input gain control. All amp input gains are set for '2v' and I set the outputs by ear to try to get similar levels during MS-8 output calibration. 3-way front, 1-way sides and subwoofer, all active XO. I'd like to now go back to try to better set the output levels on the amps to get 'optimal' levels on each speaker by using the 'hidden menu' and an SPL meter located at my 'driver head position'.

The plan:

1. To protect speakers during this process, set the XO's on the amps for the conservative listening range of each speaker and start with the amp outputs set to zero on all channels.
2. Set MS-8 volume to -25
3. Activate the 'hidden menu' "output identification"
4. On a per-channel basis, raise the amp output level from zero to achieve the target dB suggested by Kaigoss69. Note and keep those amp output levels.
5. Exit hidden menu, reset amp XO's to "OFF" 
6. Re-run the 'standard menu' MS-8 acoustic calibration process with the MS-8 volume still at -25. After calibration move the MS-8 volume up to -6.

Does my 'plan' look like an appropriate and safe implementation of Kaigoss69's level setting method?


----------



## kaigoss69

FordEscape said:


> I'd like to revisit the notion of level-setting with the hidden menu as mentioned by Kaigoss69 to help me ensure I'm understanding correctly ...
> I'm using an OEM HU, MS-8, 2x MS-1004 and 1x MS-5001 amps which have output level controls separate from input gain control. All amp input gains are set for '2v' and I set the outputs by ear to try to get similar levels during MS-8 output calibration. 3-way front, 1-way sides and subwoofer, all active XO. I'd like to now go back to try to better set the output levels on the amps to get 'optimal' levels on each speaker by using the 'hidden menu' and an SPL meter located at my 'driver head position'.
> 
> The plan:
> 
> 1. To protect speakers during this process, set the XO's on the amps for the conservative listening range of each speaker and start with the amp outputs set to zero on all channels.
> 2. Set MS-8 volume to -25
> 3. Activate the 'hidden menu' "output identification"
> 4. On a per-channel basis, raise the amp output level from zero to achieve the target dB suggested by Kaigoss69. Note and keep those amp output levels.
> 5. Exit hidden menu, reset amp XO's to "OFF"
> 6. Re-run the 'standard menu' MS-8 acoustic calibration process with the MS-8 volume still at -25. After calibration move the MS-8 volume up to -6.
> 
> Does my 'plan' look like an appropriate and safe implementation of Kaigoss69's level setting method?


Sounds good, but I would start calibration level at -35. I think the sweeps tend to be louder than the pink noise of the hidden menu.

You may have to play with the gain settings on your amps to make sure the overall volume level is in the correct range. This means not too soft so that if you turn HU and MS-8 all the way up, it is not loud enough, and not too loud meaning your HU is at 10% and it is already louder than you ever need it to be. The key is to set the amp gains just right such that with the HU at 75% volume (or max unclipped level), the MS-8 at -6dB, it is as loud as you'd ever want it to be. This ensures the lowest possible noise floor and prevents accidental overloading of your speakers.


----------



## FordEscape

^^^ Great, thanks for the additional info / explanation.


----------



## Elgrosso

What kind of weight curve do you have on your meter?
This can have a big impact on the setting, especially for lows (but your ear wills grab this).

As for the hidden menu, I don't use it anymore, just the DSP on/off feature.
Hidden menu is full range, so all spl measures will be increased compare to through the ms8.
(I know you'll use amp XOs, but they're probably not exactly the same than the ones you'll select with ms8)

But I'm sure in both cases it will be good enough, ms-8 has a lot of headroom (15db at least).

Now I use a mic & REW, to get an idea of what it tries to do, and help it the maximum.
Also to optimize the use of power, but that's secondary.
So my goal is not to match spl levels on all drivers, but to put them where it will have less work to do (so it's not always at 100% level match, in my car).


----------



## FordEscape

All of this is a new thing for me so I'm very much in the try it, hear it, learn and redo again different mode. I've a UMIK-1 on order and am venturing into REW as a tool for the first time. With that in mind this forum is a primary resource to guide my experimentation and learning (definitely fun stuff), so comments like yours most appreciated ....



Elgrosso said:


> What kind of weight curve do you have on your meter?
> This can have a big impact on the setting, especially for lows (but your ear wills grab this)....


Figured I'd use the SPL meter in REW which as you know has options for weighting. Suggestions ?



Elgrosso said:


> ... As for the hidden menu, I don't use it anymore, just the DSP on/off feature.
> Hidden menu is full range, so all spl measures will be increased compare to through the ms8.
> (I know you'll use amp XOs, but they're probably not exactly the same than the ones you'll select with ms8)
> 
> But I'm sure in both cases it will be good enough, ms-8 has a lot of headroom (15db at least)....


Understanding all of that, hope you understand I've the urge to go through that set of lessons myself so I can hear and hopefully gain the first-hand 'aural experience' that so many of y'all already have that I don't. Not trying to be hard-headed and not trying to reinvent the wheel, but IMHO this stuff that's so 'hearing intensive' is maybe best learned by re-creating some trial and error lessons others have been through, but using my own ears.

With absolutely no basis I enjoy the fantasy that perhaps, coming from the 'same house in the same era', the digital filtering in the MS amps may closely approximate the algorithms used for the similar function in MS-8. Key acknowledgements are "no basis" and "fantasy", so I may be all wet but as you say, still not a fatal-flaw in pursuing the exercise. 



Elgrosso said:


> ....Now I use a mic & REW, to get an idea of what it tries to do, and help it the maximum.
> Also to optimize the use of power, but that's secondary.
> So my goal is not to match spl levels on all drivers, but to put them where it will have less work to do (so it's not always at 100% level match, in my car).


Maybe with learning and patience I'll 'graduate' to other more efficient procedures, too. I understand and appreciate the goal of 'helping' MS-8 buy setting levels that are close approximations of where it will take things in calibration (and I like the concept as a way to make MS-8 as efficient as possible). I've assumed that the different target dB levels suggested by kaigoss69 for different types of speakers is a step in that direction (as opposed to suggesting a single dB level for all speakers).

I really do appreciate the input from experienced MS-8 users and I'm sure I'll be back to tap into that again with more questions as I progress with my learning. Thanks to you, kaigoss69 and others for your comments & suggestions!


----------



## Elgrosso

FordEscape said:


> All of this is a new thing for me so I'm very much in the try it, hear it, learn and redo again different mode. I've a UMIK-1 on order and am venturing into REW as a tool for the first time. With that in mind this forum is a primary resource to guide my experimentation and learning (definitely fun stuff), so comments like yours most appreciated ....


Good news, we'll be able to share and compare our ms-8 behavior!




FordEscape said:


> Figured I'd use the SPL meter in REW which as you know has options for weighting. Suggestions ?


When I used my phone app I usually selected C, but the difference with A was not always obvious.
(probably more related to the mic than the curve)
Now I just keep a real and cheap meter in the car, to be able to check the volume for my ears.
It's only A weighted, but enough to get an idea.




FordEscape said:


> Understanding all of that, hope you understand I've the urge to go through that set of lessons myself so I can hear and hopefully gain the first-hand 'aural experience' that so many of y'all already have that I don't. Not trying to be hard-headed and not trying to reinvent the wheel, but IMHO this stuff that's so 'hearing intensive' is maybe best learned by re-creating some trial and error lessons others have been through, but using my own ears.


Sure by no means I suggested to follow my ways, just shared.
I understand where you're going and the road you want to take, we're on the same page you know I try to do the same.

Even if I try to follow blindly the good advices from here, it's always more efficient when I just try and fail (most of the time ).

BTW how does it sound so far? Do you enjoy?


----------



## FordEscape

Elgrosso said:


> ....BTW how does it sound so far? Do you enjoy?


Oh yeah, I've enjoyed better sound every step along the way and 'tuning' has, with some dead-ends, always made it better.

Google led me to this thread when I was first considering the MS-8. Greatest thing that ever happened, IMHO. My first pre-purchase post of questions was on page 411 last November. I bought the MS-8 after reading all 400+ pages here. NEVER regretted getting the MS-8 and the path of system upgrades it has led me down. All a fun and enjoyable exercise and *I'm enjoying my music in the car more than ever*.

:laugh:


----------



## lance4682

first trip into active and i have no idea what im doing lol.my setup is a two way front nvx65active powered by a jl 450/4 v2 the mids are in the bottom of the door the tweeters are in the a pillar firing pretty much straight on.for rear fill i have two kicker 6x9 ks series powered by a jl 300/2 v2. my substage is a jlw6v2 in a huge jl ported box not sure what it is tuned at if that matters powered by a jl 500/1v2 .all of this is being ran into a jbl ms8 .what i could use assistance with is what crossover points to use slopes etc all this is foreign to me i used the default settings the ms8 provides you with but i cant seem to get the volume i was expecting also the imaging isnt exactly spectacular not sure if its because the placement of tweeters .lastly if someone with these amps would like to tell me exactly how to set the amps to 2volts i would appreciate it


----------



## FordEscape

lance4682 said:


> .....if someone with these amps would like to tell me exactly how to set the amps to 2volts i would appreciate it


I don't have the amps but can use Google and read. If you don't have the amp manuals go to Crutchfield and download them.

For the 450 & 350 amps the gain setting instructions are on page 7 of the respective PDF manuals. Easy in this case, the same for both .... set the "Input Voltage" switch to "low" which has a range of 200mV to *2V* on the "Input Sens" dial. So peg the dial clockwise and you are at *2V*.

For the 500 amp the range with low-level inputs is 200mV to 4V (page 13 "Input Section All Models" in the manual), so barely past half-way on the sensitivity dial should be close enough for a starting point.


----------



## lance4682

FordEscape said:


> I don't have the amps but can use Google and read. If you don't have the amp manuals go to Crutchfield and download them.
> 
> For the 450 & 350 amps the gain setting instructions are on page 7 of the respective PDF manuals. Easy in this case, the same for both .... set the "Input Voltage" switch to "low" which has a range of 200mV to *2V* on the "Input Sens" dial. So peg the dial clockwise and you are at *2V*.
> 
> For the 500 amp the range with low-level inputs is 200mV to 4V (page 13 "Input Section All Models" in the manual), so barely past half-way on the sensitivity dial should be close enough for a starting point.


thanks for the quick shot there. i did read the manuals online and was getting some speaker hiss when cranking the gain thought i was doing something wrong.anybody have any crossover recommendations for this particular setup. i am not as well versed as i would like to be at this subject could use help


----------



## bigjeep127

So I might be ditching the MS-8, add me to the list I guess. The main reason is that the thing has cut out on me for about 5 seconds at a time about three different times. The screen also tends to freeze and I have to unplug it and plug back in. I'm a bit worried about the longevitity of it. 

Also, I just haven't been happy with the results yet. I've played a bit with it and can't get good bass. It just sounds sloppy and distant. Now there are certain songs (more acoustical stuff, less produced) that sounds AMAZING. If anyone is familiar with Nickel Creek, wow I can't describe how great some of their stuff sounds with my setup. But then I throw in some electronic or hip hop and the bass just isn't what I want. I've tried wiring up channels 5/6 to my mono sub amp and telling the MS-8 they're the "low" component of a 3 way setup (I'm running 2 way up front). This has resulted in much less bass.

I'm thinking some of it may have to do with my subs, I have 2 10" dayton HO's in a SEALED (0.7 cf each) box. I've got them wired to 1ohm and powered by a Sundown SAE-1000D. It will get low and loud, it just doesn't sound as good at higher frequencies (65-85ish). It seems the concensus on this forum is to go ported on the HO's. I don't have the room for a ported box with the long port required for two of these 10's. I think I may send them back and get the Sundown SD-3 10's, or maybe Alpine Type R's (I'm familiar and I like them). These subs are designed for a sealed setup and may give me what I want.

So here's my question. Has anyone gone from not knowing jack about tuning to tuning their own Mini DSP 2x4? I'm leaning in this direction. I liked the idea that the MS-8 would save me time and effort but that's turning out not to be the case, I might as well learn how to tune. I'm getting annoyed having to re-run the MS-8 calibration a bunch, wish I could just tweek. I still need an active processor that can flatten the factory HU signal coming from my Accord. Anyone with suggestions?


----------



## 1lowlife

Added my second amp yesterday..
SO stock 2014 Toyota Tundra HU.
MS-8
Alpine PDX V-9 powering front door 2 way Focals separately (hi and lo) and a twin 10" Stealthbox.
Alpine MRV-F300 powering Focal 4" center bridged and the rear door Focals.

I've only done one calibration and I feel it sounds much better than when I had the center and rears running off the MS-8.
Rears didn't make that much difference unless I have L7 off, but the center sounds better at all volumes.
Running the center at a bridged 150w RMS closer matches my 100w RMS front doors than running it at 20w RMS off the MS-8.

As I was testing my connections I noticed that the center channel is off when L7 is off.
Is that right?
The center channel produces no sound unless the L7 is on?

Anyway, I have more calibrations and amp gain experimenting to do.
But having all speakers amped should make speaker level matching much easier..

My MS-8 was a PITA at first, come to find out because of my errors, but I'm really liking it now...


----------



## Alias essSQuee

Has anyone mounted the MS-8 display to the windshield above the rear view mirror? If so, how did you mount it? Adhesive? Are there any products for mounting things that I can use?


----------



## Bluenote

1lowlife said:


> Added my second amp yesterday..
> SO stock 2014 Toyota Tundra HU.
> MS-8
> Alpine PDX V-9 powering front door 2 way Focals separately (hi and lo) and a twin 10" Stealthbox.
> Alpine MRV-F300 powering Focal 4" center bridged and the rear door Focals.
> 
> I've only done one calibration and I feel it sounds much better than when I had the center and rears running off the MS-8.
> Rears didn't make that much difference unless I have L7 off, but the center sounds better at all volumes.
> Running the center at a bridged 150w RMS closer matches my 100w RMS front doors than running it at 20w RMS off the MS-8.
> 
> As I was testing my connections I noticed that the center channel is off when L7 is off.
> Is that right?
> The center channel produces no sound unless the L7 is on?
> 
> Anyway, I have more calibrations and amp gain experimenting to do.
> But having all speakers amped should make speaker level matching much easier..
> 
> My MS-8 was a PITA at first, come to find out because of my errors, but I'm really liking it now...


True, center is only active with L7 on...


----------



## FordEscape

I know it's buried here somewhere but darned if I can find it ....

What exactly does "Processor Off" do and not do ....

- input and output configuration not affected (xo's are not affected)
- TA defeated
- EQ defeated

Is that correct and is that all that's affected?

TIA


----------



## Lord Raven

Hi JBL MS8 family, I am finally considering upgrading to something else, I was wondering what are people migrating on to? What are my options? It has been a great 3 years journey with MS8. Or is there an upgrade to MS8 coming in future? With better processing, manual options and digital inputs. I am considering DSP PRO over C-DSP, this is what I have researched so far. Thanks!


----------



## Elgrosso

FordEscape said:


> I know it's buried here somewhere but darned if I can find it ....
> 
> What exactly does "Processor Off" do and not do ....
> 
> - input and output configuration not affected (xo's are not affected)
> - TA defeated
> - EQ defeated
> 
> Is that correct and is that all that's affected?
> 
> TIA


Can't find the "right" reference too, but yes it's my understanding and hearing.
From the calibration process, everything before the sweeps is kept, everything after is deactivated.


----------



## Alias essSQuee

I'm going to be trying to dial in my amplifiers tomorrow. The installation is nearly complete.

I wish to know if the input voltage that is set with the test CD from the headunit is the same output voltage the MS-8 uses? 

For instance, when I put in the CD and run the test tone and I increase the volume on my headunit until it says 'ok', is that input voltage the same as the MS-8's output voltage to the amplifiers?

I would like to know so that I can set the amplifiers with a volt meter but not sure how consistent the MS-8 will be with that.

Also, is it possible not to run the MS-8 tuning and run a 0db tone through the MS-8 to set the amplifiers 'before' the processing is done?


----------



## Alias essSQuee

Hmm,

I've run calibration and I'm actually getting a more narrow sound than when the processing is defeated. The Time Alignment seems to have shoved way too much info into center space and the surrounding stereo information sounds VERY 'muted'. Not at all like the wide-stage I was expecting (then again, my car already sounded like it has a wide stage without any processing).

My midrange/tweeters are angled from the kicks, on-axis. 

I like that I can defeat the processing and still dial in the 31-band EQ, minus the Time Alignment.

Any suggestions on how I can improve the sound in this situation? The MS-8's behavior 'seems' to me that it's trying to achieve a center-of-dash mono material presence, but has sacrificed a great deal of 'surround' info in-space. There is no longer a "3-D" effect in my on-axis setup, but admittedly, there is a tight center-channel-like sound that seems to come from the center of the dash.

This isn't quite what I was expecting, especially being so used to a "sound everywhere" type experience in my system without any processing.

There is an OCEAN of comments/questions on tuning the MS-8 but having a tough time finding someone describing my precise issue. I'm sure it's out there, but I don't want to be searching for the next 10 days. Is there anyone who happens to know how to 'trick' the MS-8 into dialing in an acoustic setting that will give me more of a 'wide' presence? It would be very appreciated as I'm trying to tune this thing up and having a heck of a time. Spent a lot of dough on new amps to go with this thing to finish my originally idealized install from 6 years ago, but running into an unexpected result. It's a heck of a feeling of pending defeat when something doesn't seem to be coming out as expected. Especially when you save hard earned cash for years to make it happen. 

So, fellow car audio folks, help a fellow member out.


----------



## Alias essSQuee

Wow. Doesn't seem like many people talk about the MS-8 much or suggest things to users anymore. At least not as fast as I used to see in the past. I dialed in a different EQ curve and it makes the processing 'active' sound more palatable now. It was sounding like an alarm clock radio on my dash at first after the self-calibration. Things are a bit more warm and open now with a hand-selected EQ-curve.

I'm still trying to make up my mind whether the time alignment sounds better. Perhaps I've just gotten so used to hearing a car without any time alignment in play. I kind of like that unfocused, 'aura' of sound, even if it's technically incorrect. Probably because it reminds me of/sounds like a dipole speaker system in a room larger than the car. The MS-8 seems to dial in a tight focus right on the center dash. I wish the MS-8 had a secondary option for tuning to tune the 'center' in space directly in front of me instead of the center of the dash. 

I realize that the point of the tuning was to emulate logic-7 with 2 speakers, but I kind of want "headphone" imaging with dipole reflection type sound. I don't even know if this is a feasible request in car sound though as the whole SQ industry is focused on that 'dead' sound zero resonance or reflection. I guess after years of home audio, I like the sound of a 'live' room. Not having any Time Alignment seems to give that effect a bit.

So, it seems if I keep the processing engaged, I will need to adjust what I expect to hear "in space" in terms of imaging. Not what I'm accustomed to. 

Is there a way to see the EQ curve that the MS-8 is dialing in for when processing is "active" so that I can hear what it sounds like without the time alignment? The MS-8 allows for an EQ adjustment with the processing off, so it is possible to dial in the EQ that the MS-8 picks out for the car, but I don't know what that curve is.

I read that a laptop can connect to the MS-8. Can you see the actual EQ curve it dials in? I'm at work right now, so I cannot test any of this. Had to use 3 days off just to get everything connected.


----------



## Lanson

MS-8 does not connect to a laptop.

I still recommend MS-8's (when it is the right tool for the job) on other forums all the time.

It isn't always the right tool.


----------



## maggie-g

fourthmeal said:


> MS-8 does not connect to a laptop.



not exactly true. You have to use a computer to upgrade the firmware if applying the bluetooth fix. Other than that, a computer connected to the MS8 serves you no good (unless Andy knows a secret or 2)


----------



## Lanson

Yeah but I meant in terms of what he was talking about for tuning.

I should elaborate on "tool for the job." When doing a build that has a big center channel opportunity, the MS-8 should be considered first. I personally feel if you can get a clean 100Hz or lower out of your front channel, the MS-8 should be at the top of your list. If you can't or won't, then its priority drops. I still use the hell out of them even in stereo mode, but mostly because I know them very well and they are "easy" to me. I've never had a build I've done go sour with the MS-8 as head of the helm yet. Three Flexes, an ST, Chrysler 200, Tundra, etc.


----------



## Alias essSQuee

If anyone with MS-8 experience wants to counsel me thru personal messages and help me out with my tuning for my build, that would be great. Especially if you've done multiple builds in the past and tuned them up perfectly.

I could provide pictures and equipment info too. I don't want to clog up the board with all that right now.


----------



## kaigoss69

Alias essSQuee said:


> If anyone with MS-8 experience wants to counsel me thru personal messages and help me out with my tuning for my build, that would be great. Especially if you've done multiple builds in the past and tuned them up perfectly.
> 
> I could provide pictures and equipment info too. I don't want to clog up the board with all that right now.


Nothing wrong with sticking to this tread that way more people see it. Based on what you have said, the first thing I would do is turn the center level down. That should enable you to get good "balance" in the front stage.

Next thing I would do is calibrate without the center. IIRC you said your mids and tweets were in the kicks right? That may contribute to a narrow stage. I don't think you need the center in that case.

Last thing you can try is to use your side speakers to help widen the stage. This may or may not be possible depending on your car and the location of the rear door speakers. Tweeters high up in the doors certainly would help.


----------



## Alias essSQuee

kaigoss69 said:


> Nothing wrong with sticking to this tread that way more people see it. Based on what you have said, the first thing I would do is turn the center level down. That should enable you to get good "balance" in the front stage.
> 
> Next thing I would do is calibrate without the center. IIRC you said your mids and tweets were in the kicks right? That may contribute to a narrow stage. I don't think you need the center in that case.
> 
> Last thing you can try is to use your side speakers to help widen the stage. This may or may not be possible depending on your car and the location of the rear door speakers. Tweeters high up in the doors certainly would help.


I have a 4-way active system. Subs in the trunk and 3-way drivers up front. Midbass in the doors and components in the kicks. And the midranges in the kicks are angled up on-axis. The tweeters are on the kick pod in the kicks. 

The MS-8 managed to dial in a very convincing center image that seems to come from the middle of my dash just as if I had a speaker there, even though I don't.

However, that is pretty much the way it sounds. Not very much image on the peripheral and not really any 'surround'. 

With the processing defeated, the sound goes back to a 'wide' 'aura' of sound, but not much focus in the center. The 'center' without processing sounds unanchored and difficult to pinpoint. However, I hear sound on the outside and SURROUND sound as well. 

So, when given the option of processed or unprocessed, I seem to prefer the unprocessed sound. And that really is disappointing because I bought the MS-8 in the hope of improving the sound. I was thinking the center of the sound would focus a bit better, but I'd still have that 'aura' of sound that I really like.

So, I'm thinking, there's probably a way I can 'trick' the MS-8 into giving me the resulting 'sound' I'm looking for. I've read in this thread, so many people who started out like me, not digging the initial tune, but then getting some pointers and coming away very happy with the results over a period of tuning, trial and error. 

Right now, my simple, quick work around was to defeat the processing and then go straight to the 31-band EQ and dial in something that sounds 'better' than the straight sound off the amps. I am liking the sound as I play with the EQ, but that just makes this a glorified, expensive tone control device, when it's supposed to be so much more than that. I know Andy, formerly of JBL put his heart into this thing and I gotta think I can get more from it than the initial sound I got.


----------



## kaigoss69

Alias essSQuee said:


> I have a 4-way active system. Subs in the trunk and 3-way drivers up front. Midbass in the doors and components in the kicks. And the midranges in the kicks are angled up on-axis. The tweeters are on the kick pod in the kicks.
> 
> The MS-8 managed to dial in a very convincing center image that seems to come from the middle of my dash just as if I had a speaker there, even though I don't.
> 
> However, that is pretty much the way it sounds. Not very much image on the peripheral and not really any 'surround'.
> 
> With the processing defeated, the sound goes back to a 'wide' 'aura' of sound, but not much focus in the center. The 'center' without processing sounds unanchored and difficult to pinpoint. However, I hear sound on the outside and SURROUND sound as well.
> 
> So, when given the option of processed or unprocessed, I seem to prefer the unprocessed sound. And that really is disappointing because I bought the MS-8 in the hope of improving the sound. I was thinking the center of the sound would focus a bit better, but I'd still have that 'aura' of sound that I really like.
> 
> So, I'm thinking, there's probably a way I can 'trick' the MS-8 into giving me the resulting 'sound' I'm looking for. I've read in this thread, so many people who started out like me, not digging the initial tune, but then getting some pointers and coming away very happy with the results over a period of tuning, trial and error.
> 
> Right now, my simple, quick work around was to defeat the processing and then go straight to the 31-band EQ and dial in something that sounds 'better' than the straight sound off the amps. I am liking the sound as I play with the EQ, but that just makes this a glorified, expensive tone control device, when it's supposed to be so much more than that. I know Andy, formerly of JBL put his heart into this thing and I gotta think I can get more from it than the initial sound I got.


So I misunderstood and you don't have a center, or rear speakers. Not sure though how you can expect "surround" effects without rear speakers? Your configuration may not work well with the MS-8 then. I have no experience with kick installs, perhaps others would like to weigh in.


----------



## 14642

MS-8 is designed to make a strong center image. That's how music is recorded. that's what time alignment provides if it's set up correctly.

Some listeners who aren't audiophiles with lots of listening practice find the strong center annoying. If you're one of those, then defeating the time alignment will eliminate that and give you back the distinct left and right that you're used to. to do that with MS-8, hold the headset microphone in the center of the car (above the console) during the FIRST SET OF SWEEPS. Then, quickly put them back on your hear for the next three sets. That will provide EQ that's suitable for the diver's seat but will eliminate the time alignment designed to compensate for the off-center listening position and to provide a strong center image.

In your system, you don't have a center speaker and you don't have rear speakers. Leave processing on but turn Logic7 off.

MS-8 is a machine. It's designed to provide a particular sound. It has no idea what you like. If you don't like what it does, then, like any machine, you have to figure out how to make it do what you want it to do.


----------



## Alias essSQuee

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8 is designed to make a strong center image. That's how music is recorded. that's what time alignment provides if it's set up correctly.
> 
> Some listeners who aren't audiophiles with lots of listening practice find the strong center annoying. If you're one of those, then defeating the time alignment will eliminate that and give you back the distinct left and right that you're used to. to do that with MS-8, hold the headset microphone in the center of the car (above the console) during the FIRST SET OF SWEEPS. Then, quickly put them back on your hear for the next three sets. That will provide EQ that's suitable for the diver's seat but will eliminate the time alignment designed to compensate for the off-center listening position and to provide a strong center image.
> 
> In your system, you don't have a center speaker and you don't have rear speakers. Leave processing on but turn Logic7 off.
> 
> MS-8 is a machine. It's designed to provide a particular sound. It has no idea what you like. If you don't like what it does, then, like any machine, you have to figure out how to make it do what you want it to do.


Thanks a bunch Andy! I will setup a preset 'with' time-alignment and one with the way I typically listen, then give it a try to listen to the strong center image version. It sounds like the sound is over my dash, which is a really cool trick. But seems like the 'surround' sound, like what would come from rear speakers is 'gone'. But without Time Alignment, it sounds like I'm getting 'surround' sound from just my two kick panels. 

When doing my initial speaker positioning and angling, before they were glassed into the kicks, I intended to use the dash as a wave guide and had to find the precise angle for the mids to make that happen. I achieved it through a hours of angling the mids in different positions over and over and sitting in all of my car's seats until there was a 'holographic' type stereo sound no matter where I sat in the vehicle. That is when I knew I had got the midrange angles to use the front dash and windshield as a waveguide.

The MS-8 seems to defeat that 'field' effect, but the MS-8 admittedly does an absolutely 'amazing' job at what you say it's intending to do. Focus the sound in the center of the dash of the car. It does that perfectly. 

So, now I have to decide how I'm going to listen to this. The old way I have been, or a new way that I'm not accustomed to. I am going to try my hand at trying to make BOTH types of versions sound their best, listen long-term over many months, then make up my mind. Can't hurt to keep my mind open to a new way of listening.


----------



## Alias essSQuee

kaigoss69 said:


> So I misunderstood and you don't have a center, or rear speakers. Not sure though how you can expect "surround" effects without rear speakers? Your configuration may not work well with the MS-8 then. I have no experience with kick installs, perhaps others would like to weigh in.


For a 'surround' type experience, you 'can' achieve that with two speakers, but they must be placed on-axis and positioned carefully. I assure you that when there is no time-alignment on my front kick panel speakers, there is a 'nice' surround effect from them. You can turn your head to the left and right and still hear the effect. I tell people that I have no rear speakers playing and they suddenly realize the depth of how hard I worked to design the front stage. I didn't just slap speakers in the kicks willy-nilly. I TESTED the speaker dispersion and angles for many hours with another person helping me while I listened. I managed to get a sound that was fantastic after many hours of trial and listening.


----------



## Lanson

One thing to keep in mind, is the recorded music. Some music will anchor to the center, especially "simple" music like mainstream stuff and poorly produced music. But put on something with "space" in the recording, and you'll hear the stage move from the ends to the center and all around. 

High bit recordings also help. A Lot.


----------



## Alias essSQuee

fourthmeal said:


> One thing to keep in mind, is the recorded music. Some music will anchor to the center, especially "simple" music like mainstream stuff and poorly produced music. But put on something with "space" in the recording, and you'll hear the stage move from the ends to the center and all around.
> 
> High bit recordings also help. A Lot.


Yeah. Like I said. I'm going to tune the MS-8 with two presets. One with center-dash image and one without. And then listen to both. I assume the presets will allow two completely different acoustic tunings to be stored, right?


----------



## 14642

I've just been made aware that MS-8 is not discontinued and will be available for at least another 6 months and possibly 18. 

Maybe this thread will reach a million views after all.


----------



## 14642

Oh, and to answer another question--MS-8 only stores one acoustic calibration. To do what you want to do, set up the diver's seat correctly and then set up the passenger's seat for your no time alignment thing. Or, after seting up the passenger seat correctly, choose "Front". that will defeat time alignment for left and right when you choose "Front".


----------



## Tweaked

Hello everyone, I just ordered an MS-8 and found this thread. I plan to onstall it in my 2011 Dodge Avenger. This thread is absolutely daunting. Do you think that it's is really worth it to read through the whole thing or are there certain sections that you would recommend?


----------



## percy072

Tweaked said:


> Do you think that it's is really worth it to read through the whole thing or are there certain sections that you would recommend?


no...hell no. I would just get it installed and see how it goes. Then you can do a keyword search to help with any possible issues, or post a question if a search doesn't help. In saying that...the one thing to look for is initial set up tips ie: set gains at 2v, ms-8 volume set to -40db for the acoustic sweep...then set back to -6db afterwords etc. But that (as I've found) didn't really work for me, but it's a start.


----------



## Tweaked

Right now, the biggest thing for me is I need help installing it. I should get it in the mail this week, but I'm not sure how to hook it up to my factory deck. I have been searching, but haven't found anything to help with my car. I have a 2011 Dodge Avenger with the MyGig 430. I plan to put everything I the trunk. The rest of my parts are as follows.

MyGig 430
MS-8
JBL GTO-804ez
JBL GTO-1001ez
JBL 660GTi Components
JBL S3-1224 Subs.


----------



## Alias essSQuee

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Oh, and to answer another question--MS-8 only stores one acoustic calibration. To do what you want to do, set up the diver's seat correctly and then set up the passenger's seat for your no time alignment thing. Or, after seting up the passenger seat correctly, choose "Front". that will defeat time alignment for left and right when you choose "Front".


Ok. Just to get this straight.

Scenario 1:
Setup Driver's seat properly
Setup Passenger seat properly
Choose 'front' and it will defeat time alignment 

Choosing 'Driver' will give proper center-dash calibration
Choosing 'Front' will give a marriage of the frequency readings from the front seats and defeat time Alignment.

Correct?

------------------

Scenario 2:
Setup Driver's seat properly
When setting for 'Passenger', sit in the Driver's seat for that sequence
When choosing 'front', it will defeat time alignment 

Choosing 'Driver' will give proper center-dash calibration
Choosing 'Front' will give frequency readings specifically for the driver's seat and defeat time alignment.

Correct?

-------------------

or

Scenario 3:

Setup Driver's seat properly
When setting for 'Passenger', sit in the Driver's seat for that sequence and hold the headphone mic's over the dash as suggested earlier.

Choosing 'Driver' will give proper center-dash calibration
Choosing 'Front' or 'Passenger' will give frequency readings specifically for the driver's seat and defeat time alignment.

Is this correct?


----------



## Tweaked

Alias essSQuee said:


> Ok. Just to get this straight.
> 
> Scenario 1:
> Setup Driver's seat properly
> Setup Passenger seat properly
> Choose 'front' and it will defeat time alignment but give a marriage of the frequency readings from the front seats
> 
> Correct?
> 
> ------------------
> 
> Scenario 2:
> Setup Driver's seat properly
> When setting for 'Passenger', sit in the Driver's seat for that sequence
> When choosing 'front', it will defeat time alignment but give frequency readings specifically for the driver's seat
> 
> Correct?


Thank you for that information on properly setting up the unit once it's installed. This will come in very useful. Right now however, I'm seeking guidance more on the physical connection side of installing it.


----------



## Alias essSQuee

Tweaked said:


> Thank you for that information on properly setting up the unit once it's installed. This will come in very useful. Right now however, I'm seeking guidance more on the physical connection side of installing it.


I wasn't answering your question. LOL. I was asking Andy a follow up question on my calibration method for having an option for time alignment or no time alignment.


----------



## Tweaked

Alias essSQuee said:


> I wasn't answering your question. LOL. I was asking Andy a follow up question on my calibration method for having an option for time alignment or no time alignment.


Lol, sorry.


----------



## 14642

Scenario 1


----------



## naiku

So, unfortunately I have a question that I know has been answered on the forum, if not directly in this thread, but no amount of Google search or forum search is finding the answer (likely too generic a search). 

How do I get my bass back up front? 

Simple enough question, for the longest time my bass sounding as though it was up front. Over the weekend I re-connected my side speakers, and now it sounds distinctly from the trunk. Here is what I am running and what if I remember correctly the crossover settings are (yes, I re-ran set up after connecting side speakers):

1 x sub MB Quart PWD254, subsonic filter left at default 20hz - JBL MS-A5001
2 way front, LPF 120 @ 24db, hpf 3000 @ 24db - mids bridged on JBL MS-A1004, tweeters on Alpine F345
1 way center, LPF 250 @ 24db - bridged on Alpine MRV-F345
1 way side, LPF 150 @ 24db - MS8 internal amp

When running the sweeps I have the MS8 volume at -45, subwoofer barely audible. The gains on the sub amp are at 35 (out of 80) and the mids are at 40 (also out of 80). The one thing I notice is that my rear speakers sound louder than the fronts during the sweeps. Not much, but enough to be noticeable.

Everything sounds pretty good, apart from bass/midbass coming from behind me. As I originally wrote, I am sure this has been answered a hundred times or more, I just can't find the specific post(s) with the answer. 

Thanks.



Tweaked said:


> Do you think that it's is really worth it to read through the whole thing or are there certain sections that you would recommend?


Search for posts by FordEscape, he has put together a PDF with a lot of the important posts in there. It's a lengthy PDF, but not as daunting as reading the entire thread.


----------



## Lanson

Tweaked said:


> Thank you for that information on properly setting up the unit once it's installed. This will come in very useful. Right now however, I'm seeking guidance more on the physical connection side of installing it.


My biggest suggestion here is to use barrier strips and spade terminals for your connections. It helps with getting everything "just right", lets you experiment with what you connect, helps with adding amps down the line for other channels, etc. Also looks cool when done right, and you don't solder/cut/solder/cut/solder your MS-8 pigtails down to stubs. Ask me how I know, lol.

Barrier strips sell for next to nothing at places like Fry's and other places like it, or you can buy them online. 

Oh and REMEMBER, do NOT connect RCA in or out on one channel along with the matching speaker in or out, ever. Example: Say channel 1 is LF tweeter, don't use the speaker leads out while also using the RCA out. Always one or the other.


----------



## FordEscape

naiku said:


> ....Search for posts by FordEscape, he has put together a PDF with a lot of the important posts in there. It's a lengthy PDF, but not as daunting as reading the entire thread.





FordEscape said:


> ...Attached if interested is a PDF of the reference document I built for my use as I read this thread. Up thru thread page 407 it includes almost exclusively Andy Wehmeyer's posts without the redundant posts, questions and non-substantive commentary. 84 pages of all-meat about the MS-8 and its implementation.


Click "View Post" above to get to the PDF attachment link FWIW. I now realize how dangerous the PDF is, lacking links to get context. Tip to overcome that ..... copy a phrase from a post of interest in the PDF and paste into Google search, that'll usually take you to the original post in the thread so you can browse nearby related posts for important context.


----------



## Lord Raven

I have an excel sheet with all the thread extracts, if you're interested I can upload or email.

You can also look for ErinH's thread about MS-8, thread extracts and tricks are mentioned in short.



Tweaked said:


> Hello everyone, I just ordered an MS-8 and found this thread. I plan to onstall it in my 2011 Dodge Avenger. This thread is absolutely daunting. Do you think that it's is really worth it to read through the whole thing or are there certain sections that you would recommend?


----------



## naiku

naiku said:


> So, unfortunately I have a question that I know has been answered on the forum, if not directly in this thread, but no amount of Google search or forum search is finding the answer (likely too generic a search).
> 
> How do I get my bass back up front?
> 
> Simple enough question, for the longest time my bass sounding as though it was up front. Over the weekend I re-connected my side speakers, and now it sounds distinctly from the trunk. Here is what I am running and what if I remember correctly the crossover settings are (yes, I re-ran set up after connecting side speakers):
> 
> 1 x sub MB Quart PWD254, subsonic filter left at default 20hz - JBL MS-A5001
> 2 way front, LPF 120 @ 24db, hpf 3000 @ 24db - mids bridged on JBL MS-A1004, tweeters on Alpine F345
> 1 way center, LPF 250 @ 24db - bridged on Alpine MRV-F345
> 1 way side, LPF 150 @ 24db - MS8 internal amp
> 
> When running the sweeps I have the MS8 volume at -45, subwoofer barely audible. The gains on the sub amp are at 35 (out of 80) and the mids are at 40 (also out of 80). The one thing I notice is that my rear speakers sound louder than the fronts during the sweeps. Not much, but enough to be noticeable.
> 
> Everything sounds pretty good, apart from bass/midbass coming from behind me. As I originally wrote, I am sure this has been answered a hundred times or more, I just can't find the specific post(s) with the answer.
> 
> Thanks.


I hate to quote myself, but am still hoping for some help here. 

I have moved the sides onto the MS-A4001, so have the same power now to both front and side speakers. Have changed the sub/front LPF down to 100Hz, but bass it's still sounding behind me. 

One thing I also noticed is my front door mids are rashly quiet, which seems odd since they have 100W gong to them. Iso it possible they are out of phase and that is screwing things up? 

Not sure if it makes any difference, but the sub is in a small 0.5cf sealed enclosure.


----------



## zmattmanz

Andy or anyone else -- My MS-8 was previous working fine with an Audiocontrol LC6i to JBL MS-8 to Alpine MRV-F300 to four coaxial speakers. I took out the Audiocontrol unit since the MS-8 could do the conversion.

Suddenly, when the music is loud the MS-8 seems to cut off (display goes blank) and then it starts back up where the music was. Any thoughts on what could be happening?


----------



## percy072

naiku said:


> Have changed the sub/front LPF down to 100Hz, but bass it's still sounding behind me.
> 
> One thing I also noticed is my front door mids are rashly quiet, which seems odd since they have 100W gong to them. Iso it possible they are out of phase and that is screwing things up?
> 
> Not sure if it makes any difference, but the sub is in a small 0.5cf sealed enclosure.


I (personally) would try raising the subsonic filter closer to what your sub & enclosure are tuned for and lower sub/mid crossover lower and lower till it starts to get better but still keeps composure ie: 80hz x-over.

I also have to crank the gain on my sub during tone sweep and then dial it back down after...so far I seem to be the only one that does that?? Otherwise the sub was waaaayy over boosted. That may be something worth trying in your case as well.


----------



## naiku

I am hoping to play around with it some more tomorrow, I tried another go last night and lowered the sub/mid to 90Hz, but it still makes no difference. Really weird, it used to be up front. Different amplifier and different subwoofer, but same enclosure, and now it's stuck behind me.


----------



## maggie-g

zmattmanz said:


> Andy or anyone else -- My MS-8 was previous working fine with an Audiocontrol LC6i to JBL MS-8 to Alpine MRV-F300 to four coaxial speakers. I took out the Audiocontrol unit since the MS-8 could do the conversion.
> 
> Suddenly, when the music is loud the MS-8 seems to cut off (display goes blank) and then it starts back up where the music was. Any thoughts on what could be happening?



Only thing I could think of would be phase. Try flipping the phase 180 and see if that helps at all.


----------



## camfreem7

Hey Guys, I have a question on phase/polarity I have desperately been needing to be answered.

This has probably been addressed already but I feel like I have either read conflicting info on this topic in here or my comprehension skills are lacking.

So I had everything set up beautifully, sounded amazing. I got some new high end tweeters and went to install them myself. A shop had installed my previous tweeters so I was unsure which wires were connected to the negative and which to the positive. My old tweeters also did not have the terminals marked so I was unable to determine that way.

So, I hooked up the new ones how I thought they should be and they sounded breathtaking. I had not re-calibrated yet so I assume any polarity/phase issues caused by installing the new ones was not showing up. 

When I did re-calibrate (I mess with a lot of stuff when I do this) the tweeters did not sound nearly as good. I tried reversing the wires of the right tweeter and tried again, still didn't sound as good as I remembered. Couldn't get to the wires of the left one so I swapped the positive and negative at the amp. Still not as good, so I swapped the wires of the left one at the amp back. 

Basically, I still have not gotten that breathtaking sound I remember having when I first installed the new ones, would not necessarily having the tweeters hooked up to positive and negative properly cause them to be out of phase, and thus not sound as good? Sadly, I don't have the money to take it to the shop and have them investigate and hook them up properly so any insight would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Lanson

Can you add detail to this? Have you worked with the EQ to try to bring whatever you lost back? Try a recal again with a different base volume? Lots things to try possibly. Basically saying "good" isn't enough to understand what is lacking from your initial example to your next. 



camfreem7 said:


> Hey Guys, I have a question on phase/polarity I have desperately been needing to be answered.
> 
> This has probably been addressed already but I feel like I have either read conflicting info on this topic in here or my comprehension skills are lacking.
> 
> So I had everything set up beautifully, sounded amazing. I got some new high end tweeters and went to install them myself. A shop had installed my previous tweeters so I was unsure which wires were connected to the negative and which to the positive. My old tweeters also did not have the terminals marked so I was unable to determine that way.
> 
> So, I hooked up the new ones how I thought they should be and they sounded breathtaking. I had not re-calibrated yet so I assume any polarity/phase issues caused by installing the new ones was not showing up.
> 
> When I did re-calibrate (I mess with a lot of stuff when I do this) the tweeters did not sound nearly as good. I tried reversing the wires of the right tweeter and tried again, still didn't sound as good as I remembered. Couldn't get to the wires of the left one so I swapped the positive and negative at the amp. Still not as good, so I swapped the wires of the left one at the amp back.
> 
> Basically, I still have not gotten that breathtaking sound I remember having when I first installed the new ones, would not necessarily having the tweeters hooked up to positive and negative properly cause them to be out of phase, and thus not sound as good? Sadly, I don't have the money to take it to the shop and have them investigate and hook them up properly so any insight would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## percy072

camfreem7 said:


> Hey Guys, I have a question on phase/polarity I have desperately been needing to be answered.


I thought the MS-8 compensated for any polarity issues it may detect during the calibration tone sweep?? 

Or you can put your old tweeters in...re-do calibration, re-install new tweeters and leave it alone. Maybe the tune it set up for your old tweeters works better on the new ones...


----------



## naiku

Made some small improvement today. Swapped phase on mids, swapped phase on sub during calibration and then swapped sub back after. Sub/front crossed at 80hz 12db.

Sounds a bit better, still not as up front as I would like. I read some posts from Andy about subs in a small sealed box being problematic, I believe the suggestion was to set the lpf on the amp, so unless anyone has other ideas I am likely to try that next. 

What's frustrating is everything else sounds good.


----------



## percy072

naiku said:


> I believe the suggestion was to set the lpf on the amp, so unless anyone has other ideas I am likely to try that next.


I was using a JBL GTO 10" sub and found it helped to use the LFP on the amp to choke off anything above 70hz to reduce a drone I had. Now I've got the Arc 10" in the same enclosure and find I don't have to do that...so it could be an issue with the sub/box combo not blending well.

Or try using the amps LPF...easy enough to try that.


----------



## camfreem7

I thought I had read that it does compensate for polarity issues but also think I have read in here that it doesn't so I don't know. Maybe installing the old ones and re-calibrating is the way to go, as different sound from the old ones would cause a different EQ.

As for the first response to my post I guess its hard to describe, as is any musical experience. I guess the high end was just more present, more pervasive, more alive, sharper, louder, and just overall made my jaw drop.

I also know that the calibration has a huge effect because even with my old setup, even before I went active, I was able to get stunning sound sometimes and other times not so much. I suppose I simply need to do more calibrations but don't have nearly as much time as I used to. 

If anyone could tell me for sure whether having the tweets wired to the positive and negative terminals correctly is necessary it would at least put my mind at ease. Also, could the fact that I used shifty butt connectors rather than soldering have an effect? In other words might the connection have weakened over time, like the wires not be connected as well as they were when I first did it? (Noob question I know but bear with me)


----------



## MetricMuscle

camfreem7 said:


> I thought I had read that it does compensate for polarity issues but also think I have read in here that it doesn't so I don't know. Maybe installing the old ones and re-calibrating is the way to go, as different sound from the old ones would cause a different EQ.
> 
> As for the first response to my post I guess its hard to describe, as is any musical experience. I guess the high end was just more present, more pervasive, more alive, sharper, louder, and just overall made my jaw drop.
> 
> I also know that the calibration has a huge effect because even with my old setup, even before I went active, I was able to get stunning sound sometimes and other times not so much. I suppose I simply need to do more calibrations but don't have nearly as much time as I used to.
> 
> If anyone could tell me for sure whether having the tweets wired to the positive and negative terminals correctly is necessary it would at least put my mind at ease. Also, could the fact that I used shifty butt connectors rather than soldering have an effect? In other words might the connection have weakened over time, like the wires not be connected as well as they were when I first did it? (Noob question I know but bear with me)


IIRC, MS-8 only corrects polarity on the input side, not the output.

Try covering your tweeters during the first calibration sweep.


----------



## 1lowlife

I found that both of my tweeters where out of polarity with the rest of the system.
Once I fixed that, I finally found the light of the MS-8..


----------



## Pseudonym

So the ms8's only way of getting a center image is through time alignment without any polarity tricks?


----------



## subwoofery

Pseudonym said:


> So the ms8's only way of getting a center image is through time alignment without any polarity tricks?


If every speaker in the system plays within the right bandwith (below beaming), then T/A, without any polarity tricks, is the right way to go @ it 

Kelvin


----------



## zmattmanz

maggie-g said:


> Only thing I could think of would be phase. Try flipping the phase 180 and see if that helps at all.


Flipping the phase of what? (e.g. a speaker? the MS-8?) I am sorry that I don't understand.


----------



## Tweaked

I am getting ready to install the MS-8 in my 2011 Dodge Avenger and wanted to know if it will be able to compensate for tweeter placement if I place my tweeters in the factory 3.5in speaker location in the dash firing off the window. Will the MS-8 give me a good, believable deep, and wide, focused sound stage? Or should I place my tweeters elsewhere?


----------



## FordEscape

Check out this post by Andy http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1046903-post2775.html (last post on thread page 111)

It goes to your question by saying that the MS-8 "won't fix everything" and basically your question is unanswerable because there's so many variables that can affect results other than simply speaker location (specific drivers, xo, eq just to name a few). You'll likely learn that the wonderful sound stage you seek is a function of lots more than just your tweeter placement, but you won't know 'till you try and you'll never know if you assume that a shortcoming is due to tweeter placement alone.

IMHO you're gonna need to follow the advice posted in another thread where you pose this same question ... do some trial testing and maybe get lucky finding some guidance from another similar model build thread.

While I'm a relative newbie at this I've certainly learned that there are so many variables affecting the end-sound of a system, you'll really benefit from an open-minded, open-eared approach and accept that sometimes the hassle of changing speaker locations or other variables can yield improvement.

IMHO one of the most worthwhile 'MS-8 installation hassles' is plowing through this whole thread. You'll learn so many valuable things affecting soundstage with the MS-8 (calibration volume level, the trick of covering tweeters during the first calibration scan, etc, etc, etc)

FWIW my advice is to start with what you 'want' for whatever reasons (maybe convenience of install or aesthetics) and be willing to enjoy the ride of making changes, knowing that some dead-ends may result but persistence will likely yield joy.


----------



## 14642

Pseudonym said:


> So the ms8's only way of getting a center image is through time alignment without any polarity tricks?


In any system that uses delay or an upmixer and a center channel, polarity tricks are not helpful. Reversing the polarity of one of the midrange drivers is a pre-DSP band aid.


----------



## Lanson

Tweaked said:


> I am getting ready to install the MS-8 in my 2011 Dodge Avenger and wanted to know if it will be able to compensate for tweeter placement if I place my tweeters in the factory 3.5in speaker location in the dash firing off the window. Will the MS-8 give me a good, believable deep, and wide, focused sound stage? Or should I place my tweeters elsewhere?


While every car is different, I've installed in a few cars with this placement, and while it isn't perfect, the sound is pretty darn good and there is good space and stage image (especially when paired with a center channel.) I find in this position, that very low-playing tweeters sound pretty good, all else equal. For instance, the SB Acoustics / NVX ring radiator offering, crossed around 1.9k ish @ 24dB/oct. But keep in mind, you can always install them in that position, and mess around with other positions later. It is all about experimentation and note the differences you hear (after calibration), even if you have to double-side sticky tape a tweeter to the sail panel for a test.


----------



## neozeric

With a passive crossover setup up front (mids/tweeters) on one channel (front), and a pair of 6.5 woofers on another channel (side, no crossover), what would be the best settings on these two channels? It is working now, however there is a gap in the bass between the subwoofer and the woofer....mid bass is missing


----------



## Lanson

neozeric said:


> With a passive crossover setup up front (mids/tweeters) on one channel (front), and a pair of 6.5 woofers on another channel (side, no crossover), what would be the best settings on these two channels? It is working now, however there is a gap in the bass between the subwoofer and the woofer....mid bass is missing


Four thoughts: 

One, the rear speakers probably need a tweeter. Simple coax or inexpensive components usually work great. I don't think that's where the lack of bass is coming from though...

Two is..what is the crossover frequency? Have you experimented with some different numbers to see how it sounds? Like ~100hz, and then 90hz, and 80hz cross points? It could be too low, or too high to be good for the drivers.

Three.. have you tried flipping the polarity on one or both of the mids? For this test I would disable the rear speakers 

Four... Don't forget to set the rears fairly high. ~100+ hz.


----------



## percy072

Anyone else find that the MS-8 can be noisy ie: background static noise?? 

Even with the volume set at -6 db's it's pretty intrusive so I keep going down until it's inaudible (usually between -15 db and -20) 

Just curious because I don't seem to find many complaints about this issue with the MS-8??


----------



## Lanson

percy072 said:


> Anyone else find that the MS-8 can be noisy ie: background static noise??
> 
> Even with the volume set at -6 db's it's pretty intrusive so I keep going down until it's inaudible (usually between -15 db and -20)
> 
> Just curious because I don't seem to find many complaints about this issue with the MS-8??


I keep mine around -10 or thereabouts, and there's little bit of hiss but not intrusive. You could try omitting your amps for a test and see how that sounds, and then you know what's up.


----------



## SQLnovice

Could it be the amp you are using? I had all JBL MS amps with zero noise. 2nd set of amps were all JL HD amps and I had a minor little noise if volume was zero and you listen closely. But this could have been install related.


----------



## neozeric

fourthmeal said:


> Four thoughts:
> 
> One, the rear speakers probably need a tweeter. Simple coax or inexpensive components usually work great. I don't think that's where the lack of bass is coming from though...
> 
> Two is..what is the crossover frequency? Have you experimented with some different numbers to see how it sounds? Like ~100hz, and then 90hz, and 80hz cross points? It could be too low, or too high to be good for the drivers.
> 
> Three.. have you tried flipping the polarity on one or both of the mids? For this test I would disable the rear speakers
> 
> Four... Don't forget to set the rears fairly high. ~100+ hz.


Here is what I have
Channel 1&2 - Front goes to amp (no xover) then to passive xover and to a 4" mid and tweeters. set for 1 way

Channel 3&4 - Front Woofers (6.5") goes to amp (no xovder) then straight to the speakers. Set for Side , 100Hz, 24dB/octave

Channel 5 - Center - no amp - 1 way. Set for Center 80Hz, 24dB/octave

Channel 6&7 - Rear - No amp - 1 way 100Hz, 24dB/octave

Channel 8 - Sub - amp (no xover) - 1 way 20Hz 12dB/octave

The challenge is no mid bass. I do not hear or feel any bass coming from the front woofers channels 3&4 . I suspect this has something to do with the "side" setting on the ms-8 and/or my crossover selections on those channels


----------



## percy072

fourthmeal said:


> I keep mine around -10 or thereabouts, and there's little bit of hiss but not intrusive. You could try omitting your amps for a test and see how that sounds, and then you know what's up.


I have unplugged the speaker level inputs and noise is still there, then unplugged MS-8's pre-amp RCA's and noise disappears...so must be the MS-8??

I'm going to try a line driver between MS-8 and amps so I can lower the level down around -15db but still have sufficient pre-amp voltage to keep respectable output and not resort to cranking the gains to compensate.


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

neozeric said:


> Here is what I have
> Channel 1&2 - Front goes to amp (no xover) then to passive xover and to a 4" mid and tweeters. set for 1 way
> 
> Channel 3&4 - Front Woofers (6.5") goes to amp (no xovder) then straight to the speakers. Set for Side , 100Hz, 24dB/octave
> 
> Channel 5 - Center - no amp - 1 way. Set for Center 80Hz, 24dB/octave
> 
> Channel 6&7 - Rear - No amp - 1 way 100Hz, 24dB/octave
> 
> Channel 8 - Sub - amp (no xover) - 1 way 20Hz 12dB/octave
> 
> The challenge is no mid bass. I do not hear or feel any bass coming from the front woofers channels 3&4 . I suspect this has something to do with the "side" setting on the ms-8 and/or my crossover selections on those channels


Agreed. Setting the front 6.5´s as side speakers is going to mess you up.

Do a factory reset on the MS-8 and this time setup the front as a two-way. Set the sub for 20-80HZ, 24dB slope. Front low set for 80-300HZ, 24dB slope. (Channels 3&4) Front high set for 300HZ and up. (Channels 1&2) Leave the center as you had it on channel 5, then setup channels 6&7 as "side" speakers as stated on page 30 of the MS-8 manual. 100HZ high pass, 24dB slope. Then recalibrate. 

If you still have midbass issues, then you may have a polarity issue on one or more drivers. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## neozeric

Fast Hot Rod said:


> Agreed. Setting the front 6.5´s as side speakers is going to mess you up.
> 
> Do a factory reset on the MS-8 and this time setup the front as a two-way. Set the sub for 20-80HZ, 24dB slope. Front low set for 80-300HZ, 24dB slope. (Channels 3&4) Front high set for 300HZ and up. (Channels 1&2) Leave the center as you had it on channel 5, then setup channels 6&7 as "side" speakers as stated on page 30 of the MS-8 manual. 100HZ high pass, 24dB slope. Then recalibrate.
> 
> If you still have midbass issues, then you may have a polarity issue on one or more drivers.
> 
> Hope this helps.


That did it thanks! With a 2 way selection on the fronts, i only have the option of 1 crossover point. Should that be 80 or 300? Why does it sound "better" with l7 off? just curious, thanks again


----------



## Bluenote

This may be way off topic but wanted to know if anyone has been reviewing the APL-1 processor thread in Product Review & Comparison section. It's expensive and requires some RTA measuring know-how.
I want to know if this product would be complimentary with the MS8 specifically for Logic 7 set up or if it's redundant... Here's a few notes...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...l1-advanced-dsp-eq-phase-correction-unit.html

http://aplaudio.com/conc2/apl1/

Conclusion & Subjective analysis

*This is a very powerful unit, very different from the EQ available in the DSPs available for car use. Different in a good way, it can do things any "normal" DSP can't and it's easy and straightforward to use.

*T/A and L/R EQ issues are gone with this unit. The acoustic center is perfect, even a simple 2-way passive system like mine sounded like a competition grade car. Depth is improved subjectively. Everything sounds clearer, more transparent and so easy to listen at. No annoying frequencies that stand out, even crappy recordings that normally is un-listenable suddenly becomes tolerable. The center focus is insane, the up-front bass is improved by an enormous amount (in this car). With a crossover point at 100Hz/24dB both ways, the sub was impossible to localize with any material (any amount of processing won't fix resonances in the car or non-linear distortion so take that into account) . The image stayed up-front and kept staying there. 

(I am aware that the result varies, if you already got an audiophile grade competition car the improvement is less than with a "normal" install but in my opinion it's still worth every penny. It's that good.)

*My noise-free preamp is still broken so I couldn't run I/O tests but I'll tell you, it's transparent as far I can hear. No noise whatsoever, I even maxed volume with a 0 bit track but nothing. Couldn't hear any coloration with the unit in "raw-passthrough". 

*This unit does NOT replace an ordinary DSP, in fact you need an ordinary DSP as well. You place the APL1 unit before the DSP - 2RCA's in - 2 out. Not more complicated that that. If you don't own a DSP and is interested in this product, I recommend using it together with a MiniDSP (among the cheapest and best on the market).


----------



## 14642

Pseudonym said:


> So the ms8's only way of getting a center image is through time alignment without any polarity tricks?


In any system that includes delay, polarity tricks are complete BS and should be avoided. That's a pre-DSP bandaid for getting an image when the pathlength differences to the mids is big. 

Don't do that with any DSP when you use delays.


----------



## Lanson

neozeric said:


> That did it thanks! With a 2 way selection on the fronts, i only have the option of 1 crossover point. Should that be 80 or 300? Why does it sound "better" with l7 off? just curious, thanks again


think of the cross points exactly as that, cross. But not just crossover, cross between one speaker to another. So, sub to door woofer is one cross point (probably 80hz is a good starting number), and then another cross point will be the door woofer to the tweeter, and that number needs to be determined by, amongst other things, what the tweeter can handle without failure or distortion. So that's two cross points. Edit: Noticed you are tying to a component setup, so you want to just cross where those 4" drivers will let you. 250-300 should do it. 

With a low quality, missing, or small center, often the system will sound better with L7 off, imo. Not a bad thing. I use an MS-8 in my Flex with a badass surround setup, and L7 is on full-time. But in my Focus ST, I have a two-way + rear + sub setup (no center, no place for it), and L7 is off full-time. Both cars sound fantastic, just different.


----------



## camfreem7

Ok I need your guys help. So as I have said in previous posts I am almost certain either one of or both of my tweeters are out of phase.

Since my tweeters are hard to get to I have been swapping polarity at the amplifier, does this even work? I am pretty sure I have tried every combination and recalibrating after each one but I am still not getting the sound I know I had before I recalibrated after installing new tweeters. I know its not the tweeters because when I swapped them out I didn't recalibrate for awhile and the sound was jaw dropping. It was only after I recalibrated like an idiot that I started experiencing problems.

So basically, can polarity swapping be done at the amplifier?


----------



## Dumple

and the frustration sets in, i installed a kenwood xr400-4 for my front mids and side mids today, thinking my system would be magically better, but not so much. Maybe I am just asking too much out of the ms8.
anyways system consists of 
PHD NEO 6.5s in front doors ,PHD fb1.1 tweets, tangband 2 inch center, cdt m6+ in sides, tc epic 10

My questions are as follows Why is it rec. to set the rear x-over at 100hz if my speakers can play well bellow that?
Why does the system lack midbass ingeneral? front sub to mid xover 75 @ 18
Is there a "sweet spot" between the mid-tweet in a 2 way setup, i seem to have distortion that wont go away.


----------



## deftones

Can I use speaker wire with a single male rca plug to connect a center channel directly to the MS-8? 
JL C2-350X
All of my other speakers (front mids, rears, & sub) are running through amps and im out of channels going that route. I'm a newbie to the audio world, so I apologize in advance if this is a rhetorical question.
I've searched everywhere for the answer, any help would be appreciated.


----------



## FordEscape

neozeric said:


> That did it thanks! With a 2 way selection on the fronts, i only have the option of 1 crossover point. Should that be 80 or 300? Why does it sound "better" with l7 off? just curious, thanks again


"Better" is in the ear of the beholder. If you like a strong rear sound you may not like L7. If you (learn) to like a front soundstage with ambient fill from the rear you'll like L7 for many recordings (some recordings just aren't 'L7 friendly' because of how they are engineered, but that's a minority IMHO).

My suggestion is to just listen for awhile (i.e. over a period of days). The whole DSP thing can be a bit foreign at first .... give it a chance, you may find a breakthrough point where suddenly you appreciate the realistic subtlety of it. 

BTW, I gotta respectfully disagree with fourthmeal's comment re 'missing' front center. A poor or small center I won't argue with, but IMHO for starting out, if you focus your efforts on optimizing for the driver position only the absence of a center shouldn't impair things and in fact may make it easier. Focus on finding optimal xo's and levels for your front. One 'trick' many have found helpful is to cover the front tweeters during the first sweep of the acoustic calibration (first sweep ONLY). This may help with the situation given your component front with limited xo choices.

IMHO the center is more important when trying to accommodate the driver + passenger occupancy situation. Try deferring that accommodation 'till you've got it working nicely for the driver only situation. It may take a number of calibration runs with minor tweaks to find the sweet spot.

Remember .... use 'reset to factory defaults' before each (or at least every few) calibrations. IMHO it's just good to get in the habit of resetting every time you recalibrate; and always unplug your mic/headset before hitting "done" at the end of the acoustic calibration routine.

Persistence and an organized approach to making single-variable changes between recalibrations 'pays-off'. Listen to a varied selection of recordings, but the same list, after each recalibration to try to identify the effect of the change.


----------



## FordEscape

deftones said:


> Can I use speaker wire with a single male rca plug to connect a center channel directly to the MS-8? JL C2-350X
> ....


To power any speaker with the amp in the MS-8 you must connect it to a channel on the 16-wire MS-8 output harness, not to one of the RCA pre-amp output jacks. AND, whatever powered output channel you use CANNOT also be connected to an external amp driving another speaker (e.g. if you wire a speaker to the powered output harness channel "4" then the RCA pre-amp output for channel "4" cannot be used). There are eight output channels no matter how you divide than between pre-amp out to an external amp and 'powered out' using the MS-8 internal amp.



deftones said:


> All of my other speakers (front mids, rears, & sub) are running through amps and im out of channels going that route. I'm a newbie to the audio world, so I apologize in advance if this is a rhetorical question.
> I've searched everywhere for the answer, any help would be appreciated.


More info needed to help you. List out exactly your system scheme (e.g. MS-8 channel # > amp > speaker [front 1-way, front 2-way, etc]).

IF you've got 2-way front, 1-way rear and a sub you've used 7 channels and can add the center.


----------



## deftones

Awesome, thanks for the quick response FordEscape much appreciated! I'll give it a go today.


----------



## 14642

Dumple said:


> and the frustration sets in, i installed a kenwood xr400-4 for my front mids and side mids today, thinking my system would be magically better, but not so much. Maybe I am just asking too much out of the ms8.
> anyways system consists of
> PHD NEO 6.5s in front doors ,PHD fb1.1 tweets, tangband 2 inch center, cdt m6+ in sides, tc epic 10
> 
> My questions are as follows Why is it rec. to set the rear x-over at 100hz if my speakers can play well bellow that?
> Why does the system lack midbass ingeneral? front sub to mid xover 75 @ 18
> Is there a "sweet spot" between the mid-tweet in a 2 way setup, i seem to have distortion that wont go away.


The distortion could be too much boost at the crossover frequency on the near side. Try turning down those frequencies in the 31-band EQ to see if it goes away. If it does, then the issue is not enough midrange off axis from the midrange speaker. This is a common problem with 6" and 1" component systems. 

I suggest a rear and side HP of 100Hz or higher because L7 inverts phase when the sound steers to the front. It's best to keep that condition out of the midbass range. If you don't use L7, then it doesn't matter.


----------



## 14642

percy072 said:


> Anyone else find that the MS-8 can be noisy ie: background static noise??
> 
> Even with the volume set at -6 db's it's pretty intrusive so I keep going down until it's inaudible (usually between -15 db and -20)
> 
> Just curious because I don't seem to find many complaints about this issue with the MS-8??


MS-8 is three equalizers. All are capable of boosting high frequencies and that sometimes increases hiss. If your source unit has attenuation at high frequencies, the input EQ will boost them. If your tweeters aren't loud enough, MS-8 will boost high frequencies in the output EQ. If you loke more treble and you boost high frequencies in the 31-band EQ, that will also increase the level of hiss in the system.


----------



## Dumple

Is it possible to get a new set of mics my wires are getting frayed , I tried cutting around the xover it makes no difference , only thing I found is if I don't use the l7 then the distortion isnt there or maybe less pronounced , I'm feel its my source unit causing distortion. Before I give up hopes kn the ms8 I'll try another head unit


----------



## cueball981

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The distortion could be too much boost at the crossover frequency on the near side. Try turning down those frequencies in the 31-band EQ to see if it goes away. If it does, then the issue is not enough midrange off axis from the midrange speaker. This is a common problem with 6" and 1" component systems.
> 
> I suggest a rear and side HP of 100Hz or higher because L7 inverts phase when the sound steers to the front. It's best to keep that condition out of the midbass range. If you don't use L7, then it doesn't matter.


Andy, does the distance between the tweeter and the mid in a 6/1 system make a difference? Would changing the bandpass frequency of the mid help? I'll be running a 2-way setup consisting of a 6 1/2 and 1. Mid located bottom-front and tweet mounted top-front of each door. Any suggestions on mounting of these (direction of angle)? I am trying to avoid having to do any cutting of my door panels and a-pillars. Thanks!

Chris


----------



## Lanson

Yes, swapping at the amp is the exact same thing. But note, you don't need to recalibrate after, necessarily. It is more of an "after calibration" kind of thing to try out. I use barrier strips to do this very quickly.



camfreem7 said:


> Ok I need your guys help. So as I have said in previous posts I am almost certain either one of or both of my tweeters are out of phase.
> 
> Since my tweeters are hard to get to I have been swapping polarity at the amplifier, does this even work? I am pretty sure I have tried every combination and recalibrating after each one but I am still not getting the sound I know I had before I recalibrated after installing new tweeters. I know its not the tweeters because when I swapped them out I didn't recalibrate for awhile and the sound was jaw dropping. It was only after I recalibrated like an idiot that I started experiencing problems.
> 
> So basically, can polarity swapping be done at the amplifier?


----------



## camfreem7

fourthmeal said:


> Yes, swapping at the amp is the exact same thing. But note, you don't need to recalibrate after, necessarily. It is more of an "after calibration" kind of thing to try out. I use barrier strips to do this very quickly.


Thanks man I really appreciate this, the fact that my tweeter(s) may be out of phase have been driving me crazy for awhile now. Finally have a day off in going to try every damn combination possible to figure it out. Unfortunately it is very difficult in my car to get the the wires running to the tweets but should be no problem at the amp.


----------



## bigjeep127

So I decided to give the MS-8 another shot. I really wanted more control and to learn how to tune but after giving it a go with the MiniDSP I realized it's going to take me a while to learn. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to get the front stage sounding as good as it does with the MS-8. I think my chances or getting the subs to work how I want with the MS-8 are higher than replicating that beautiful front stage. I'm keeping one MiniDSP and selling the other, I'd still like to learn tuning, I'll probably try it out on my home theater sub.

My biggest issue now is this... The first MS-8 kept restarting on me at random times, I thought it was a bad unit. I swapped it out for another new one and I'm still having the same issue. So I'm pretty sure it's my setup. I've got the remote in coming from the ACC fuse and two remote outs going to a 4 channel and mono amp. I never got the restarting until I added the sub amp, so I think the extra current draw is causing the MS-8 to shut down for some reason. I've searched and searched and have seen this issue come up but with no clear resolution. 

My power wire is well oversized and I measure good voltage at the remote wire and power wires (always higher than 12.5V). I haven't been able to measure the voltage right when there's a shutdown, maybe it's dropping during high energy demand? The only thing I can think of that's weird with my install is that my ground wire is very long, I basically haven't trimmed any power wires yet but because I'm at a temporary install phase. But the fact that my wire is so oversized (using 8 gauge weld wire for MS-8 when min 12 is recommended) I wouldn't think it'd be a concern. Ground is secure, I used an existing ground point in the trunk, all nice and neat with dielectric grease and all. 

Maybe I should try another fuse to pull the remote turn on lead from? Any ideas?


----------



## Tweaked

I'm having the MS-8 installed right now using my factory deck. The shop is planning on hooking up all 4 speaker outs from the deck. I have read only about 50 pages of this thread and early on, it was advised only to hook up the front outputs and allow the MS-8 to sum the signals. Which is better in my case? My car is a 2011 Dodge Avenger with the MyGig 430 deck.


----------



## Lanson

Tweaked said:


> I'm having the MS-8 installed right now using my factory deck. The shop is planning on hooking up all 4 speaker outs from the deck. I have read only about 50 pages of this thread and early on, it was advised only to hook up the front outputs and allow the MS-8 to sum the signals. Which is better in my case? My car is a 2011 Dodge Avenger with the MyGig 430 deck.


I would almost always suggest just the front two if the car has a stereo output, and if the car has a surround output, then connect all. My 2013 Flex couldn't be taken out of surround mode, so I connected all and it works well. I wasn't 100% certain the front two channels would get all the signal. But if you have just a standard stereo type output, yeah just two fronts and then fully fade the front.


----------



## bigjeep127

Well I messed around with it all day, voltage is good. It shut off a few times again, seemingly random times. I think it's the display. This unit had issues out of the box, screen was unresponsive, swapped remote batteries and nothing, found someone in this thread who said loosen the screws on the display and it worked like a charm. I don't think I've had the shutdown with the display plugged in so I'm going to drive it all week without the display and see what happens. I just swore it had to be my setup given both units were bad, but it seems others have had this issue a lot. 

Man I really love the tune I got out of it today, I set it up as a 3 way front instead of 2 way plus sub and wow! Bass sounds like it's coming from my dashboard, it's amazing. I'm determined to keep this thing now because I'm finally happy with the sound.

Anyone have the same issues? I don't want to send another one back to Amazon if I don't have to.


----------



## Shaheenk

Hey guys , so I have been a long time MS8 user and have helped loads of guys in South Africa who have these units. I am now asking for a bit of help myself.

Car is a 2008 BMW 135i coupe, 

System comprises of 

Audison VRx 4.300 - running midbass and subwoofer
Hertz 3 in midranges in the stock locations in the door
AVI HB30 tweeters in the sail panels aimed at driver
Dyn Audio 4in and tweeter in Centre channel 
Orion 8MB's in the stock locations under the seats 
Stock rears 
Morel Ultimo SC10 in the boot - Sealed box

My X-overs are 
Sub 20 - 70Hz 18Db
Midbass - 70 - 220Hz - 24 Db
Midrange and tweeter are on passive from 220Hz up 
Centre is from 160Hz up 

I find my centre is not very focused, could this be because of the overlap between the mid/tweeter combo and the centre. 

Also I find my sub sometimes hangs in the rear, not in all the songs but some of them , I have not tried to swing polarity on it , if I do will I need to redo a acoustic measurement or is this not needed. 

Other then that the car sounds amazing .


----------



## percy072

Very curious if anyone else has ever measured the pre-amp voltage from your MS-8??

I did this recently with a 60hz test tone with both the MS-8's master volume and the HU volume at max and measured 2.6 VAC stable. I reduced the MS-8 to -10db to reduce some of the noise issues I've got and (with HU still at max) measured 0.9 to 1 Volt.

Just interested in comparing readings...

Also noticed that the voltage remained constant until the HU volume was at or just below half...then it would drop in a linear manner to 0?? Normal??


----------



## Lanson

Power is logarithmic, so unless you have an extremely accurate way to measure, it will be imperceptible up to a certain point (about 1/2way) and then it should measure more and more and more with every little click. 



percy072 said:


> Very curious if anyone else has ever measured the pre-amp voltage from your MS-8??
> 
> I did this recently with a 60hz test tone with both the MS-8's master volume and the HU volume at max and measured 2.6 VAC stable. I reduced the MS-8 to -10db to reduce some of the noise issues I've got and (with HU still at max) measured 0.9 to 1 Volt.
> 
> Just interested in comparing readings...
> 
> Also noticed that the voltage remained constant until the HU volume was at or just below half...then it would drop in a linear manner to 0?? Normal??


----------



## Tweaked

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8 is three equalizers. All are capable of boosting high frequencies and that sometimes increases hiss. If your source unit has attenuation at high frequencies, the input EQ will boost them. If your tweeters aren't loud enough, MS-8 will boost high frequencies in the output EQ. If you loke more treble and you boost high frequencies in the 31-band EQ, that will also increase the level of hiss in the system.


Andy,

I just had my whole system installed yesterday which consists of the MS-8 running off of the factory HU and pushing signal to a JBL GTO-804ez running active to a pair of JBL 660GTI components, one channel per driver. Then the MS-8 is feeding a JBL GTO-1001ez to a pair of Infinity Kappa 120.9w's. 

I'm experiencing the hissing described above, but also the midbass isn't as strong as I had imagined it would be with these drivers.

How do you recommend going about reducing/eliminating the hiss in my system. I'm suspicious of the gains. The installer set them. The front gains on the 804ez are set to around 50% and the rear gains are around 60-65%. I'm not sure at this point which channels are running to which drivers. I'll need to figure that out.

Anyway, I would really appreciate your help as I despise hiss, and would love to get more midbass to pull the bass forward.


----------



## t3sn4f2

fourthmeal said:


> Power is logarithmic, so unless you have an extremely accurate way to measure, it will be imperceptible up to a certain point (about 1/2way) and then it should measure more and more and more with every little click.


Yup but hes saying its the opposite. It doesnt change from 1/2 to full. Which it should because like you said the master volume curve implemented is log and wil rise and fall greatly over a short range up top. 










Hes clipping the ms8 inputs on anything over half volume setting so the ms8 outputs are pegged with clipped inputs until below 1/2


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## percy072

t3sn4f2 said:


> Hes clipping the ms8 inputs on anything over half volume setting so the ms8 outputs are pegged with clipped inputs until below 1/2


It is a head scratcher but there actually is no detectable clipping with the HU volume over half...the volume level behaves as per normal, I just seemed to have a real lack of output if the MS-8's master volume was below -5db's plus that static sound. 

Maybe I wasn't measuring correctly?? I used the sub channel with a 60hz tone. but it seemed to be a logical method of testing.

Side note...I just installed a line driver today and it's made a massive improvement with the overall output and being able to reduce both the MS-8's volume and the amp gains way down. Still a minor little bit of noise, but not nearly as bad as what I started with.

Curious as to why the MS-8 was designed to have a max pre-amp output of 2.5 V ?? but I'm sure there was a good reason. I just found that it wasn't enough to get the full benefit of my Arc amp. That's now changed


----------



## FordEscape

*digital media formats with MS-8*

Just curious ... do digital media transcriptions alter any of the data used by MS-8 to process the sound compared to an original CD source?

Does 'lossless' vs 'lossy' bear on this?

Not trying to start a 'can you hear the difference' discussion, that's well-flogged; just wondering of any of the various original recording characteristics which Andy has mentioned affecting how MS-8 processes source music is 'compromised' (for lack of a better term) by various compression schemes?

For example, is some 'phase' information altered in the process of transcribing from a CD to a compressed lossless or lossy digital media format?

Apology if this has been answered, I didn't find it.


----------



## Lanson

Yeah but the difference in actual volume from 2.5V to 1.25V is only 3dB, or barely noticeable at a dynamic transient. Even at full tilt (but under the clipping point for the highest transients of the source music being played), an RCA input rated for 2.5V maximum is only seeing input voltage in the millivolt range, most of the time. Only on the biggest bass hits, the most aggressive ramped transients, etc would a signal get anywhere near the maximum, and it only does so for a tiny, tiny fraction of time.

Regarding your measuring, 

One thought I have is, when the signal is going that high, you are actually measuring the clipped signal not a sine wave. The power difference is double between the two. In other words, a 20W amp in clipping is actually pushing 40W, and it is screaming bloody agony doing it.





percy072 said:


> It is a head scratcher but there actually is no detectable clipping with the HU volume over half...the volume level behaves as per normal, I just seemed to have a real lack of output if the MS-8's master volume was below -5db's plus that static sound.
> 
> Maybe I wasn't measuring correctly?? I used the sub channel with a 60hz tone. but it seemed to be a logical method of testing.
> 
> Side note...I just installed a line driver today and it's made a massive improvement with the overall output and being able to reduce both the MS-8's volume and the amp gains way down. Still a minor little bit of noise, but not nearly as bad as what I started with.
> 
> Curious as to why the MS-8 was designed to have a max pre-amp output of 2.5 V ?? but I'm sure there was a good reason. I just found that it wasn't enough to get the full benefit of my Arc amp. That's now changed


----------



## cueball981

Okay, haven't seen this question posted yet. What would happen if I keep the REAR center speaker connected along with the FRONT center? Would I tell the MS-8 that it's a "rear" channel separate from the "sides"? Wondering how this would sound compared to having 2 rear channels running stereo. I could always put something in place of the 2 stock 6x9 subs and run both "sides" and "rears" in parallel like Andy suggests, but I would like to remove these so I have a way for the subs to vent into the cabin. Anyone else running the MS-8 with the stock 12-speaker Ford/Sony system? Thoughts? Thanks in advance for any input! 

Chris


----------



## 14642

Dumple said:


> Is it possible to get a new set of mics my wires are getting frayed , I tried cutting around the xover it makes no difference , only thing I found is if I don't use the l7 then the distortion isnt there or maybe less pronounced , I'm feel its my source unit causing distortion. Before I give up hopes kn the ms8 I'll try another head unit


Ah HA! 

Yes, if your source unit clips, Logic 7 will make that sound terrible. Turn down your head unit and turn up MS-8's volume control. If that's not enough, then increase the gain on your amps all by the same amount.


----------



## 14642

fourthmeal said:


> Yeah but the difference in actual volume from 2.5V to 1.25V is only 3dB, or barely noticeable at a dynamic transient. Even at full tilt (but under the clipping point for the highest transients of the source music being played), an RCA input rated for 2.5V maximum is only seeing input voltage in the millivolt range, most of the time. Only on the biggest bass hits, the most aggressive ramped transients, etc would a signal get anywhere near the maximum, and it only does so for a tiny, tiny fraction of time.
> 
> Regarding your measuring,
> 
> One thought I have is, when the signal is going that high, you are actually measuring the clipped signal not a sine wave. The power difference is double between the two. In other words, a 20W amp in clipping is actually pushing 40W, and it is screaming bloody agony doing it.


6dB. Change in dB for voltage is 20log(V1/V2)


----------



## Shaheenk

Shaheenk said:


> Hey guys , so I have been a long time MS8 user and have helped loads of guys in South Africa who have these units. I am now asking for a bit of help myself.
> 
> Car is a 2008 BMW 135i coupe,
> 
> System comprises of
> 
> Audison VRx 4.300 - running midbass and subwoofer
> Hertz 3 in midranges in the stock locations in the door
> AVI HB30 tweeters in the sail panels aimed at driver
> Dyn Audio 4in and tweeter in Centre channel
> Orion 8MB's in the stock locations under the seats
> Stock rears
> Morel Ultimo SC10 in the boot - Sealed box
> 
> My X-overs are
> Sub 20 - 70Hz 18Db
> Midbass - 70 - 220Hz - 24 Db
> Midrange and tweeter are on passive from 220Hz up
> Centre is from 160Hz up
> 
> I find my centre is not very focused, could this be because of the overlap between the mid/tweeter combo and the centre.
> 
> Also I find my sub sometimes hangs in the rear, not in all the songs but some of them , I have not tried to swing polarity on it , if I do will I need to redo a acoustic measurement or is this not needed.
> 
> Other then that the car sounds amazing .


Anyone ????


----------



## kaigoss69

Shaheenk said:


> Anyone ????


Do the next calibration without the center and report back. Also reverse sub polarity before the calibration.


----------



## Lanson

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> 6dB. Change in dB for voltage is 20log(V1/V2)


Thank you for the correction Andy. I didn't know the correlation changed.


----------



## Lanson

Shaheenk said:


> Anyone ????


My off-the-cuff take is that you installed different brands of speakers throughout the same frequency range, with different timbre or voicing. Hard to make things seamless this way, I feel. I always try to match up (at least within reason, like same cone or dome materials) the drivers that will be playing the same frequencies, like the center mated to the side midranges. I really try to do this with tweeters, IE have a silk dome tweeter with the same basic frequency response at the left, center, and right. 

I may be wrong that the MS-8 can't compensate 100% for that, but in home audio it was really important to try and get things to match timbre from left, right and center. And in some ways, the rears but less of a priority.

The other thing on the sub, if the sealed box is peaky it (the MS-8) might be boosting to compensate, so blending may be tricky. EQ work might get it back in line, and toning it down in general. Also are you certain the 70hz is the "right" cross point, to maintain a seamless sound?


----------



## quietfly

fourthmeal said:


> My off-the-cuff take is that you installed different brands of speakers throughout the same frequency range, with different timbre or voicing. Hard to make things seamless this way, I feel. I always try to match up (at least within reason, like same cone or dome materials) the drivers that will be playing the same frequencies, like the center mated to the side midranges. I really try to do this with tweeters, IE have a silk dome tweeter with the same basic frequency response at the left, center, and right.
> 
> I may be wrong that the MS-8 can't compensate 100% for that, but in home audio it was really important to try and get things to match timbre from left, right and center. And in some ways, the rears but less of a priority.
> 
> The other thing on the sub, if the sealed box is peaky it (the MS-8) might be boosting to compensate, so blending may be tricky. EQ work might get it back in line, and toning it down in general. Also are you certain the 70hz is the "right" cross point, to maintain a seamless sound?



This... 
matching everything up can be tricky when your running with such a wide range of sensitivities. 
crossover the sub higher, like a 100, and work your way down. i've found the ms-8 prefers a higher sub xover point. also calibrate with your least sensitive drivers, and then add the rest and adjust via amp gains. 

just my 2-cents YMMV


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## Lanson

cueball981 said:


> Okay, haven't seen this question posted yet. What would happen if I keep the REAR center speaker connected along with the FRONT center? Would I tell the MS-8 that it's a "rear" channel separate from the "sides"? Wondering how this would sound compared to having 2 rear channels running stereo. I could always put something in place of the 2 stock 6x9 subs and run both "sides" and "rears" in parallel like Andy suggests, but I would like to remove these so I have a way for the subs to vent into the cabin. Anyone else running the MS-8 with the stock 12-speaker Ford/Sony system? Thoughts? Thanks in advance for any input!
> 
> Chris


You can but you're running out of channels. 

1. LF tweeter
2. RF tweeter
3. LF woofer
4. RF woofer
5. Center
6. LR speaker
7. RR speaker
8. Sub

9?? This would in theory be your center rear. But realistically, I'd rate it as a pretty low priority amongst the other channels.


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## Volvo_S80

Hello, I installed a MS-8 a couple months ago. I had some alternator whine after the install but after separating the grounds to my amps that went away, but there was always an "airplane noise" after some research I saw that having the calibrating headset still plugged in could cause this. I did have it still plugged in but that's because I was still trying to get it to sound the way i wanted it too, re-doing the calibration every now and then I figured once I found the right tuning i would disconnect the headset and the noise would go away. After deciding to finally keep the setting I unplug the headset and the noise is still there.... Thinking it might still be a grounding problem I started moving grounds again and still the same noise with no change. So I decided to take both my amps out of the equation and used only the internal amp on the MS-8 hooked right up to the front 2 way speakers. Still the noise was there. It was a bit quieter but still the same high pitched noise. I moved the ground once again still the same noise. I'm starting to think its just the MS-8 unit itself. Also while I was on my mission to eliminate this noise I noticed that when I start up the MS-8 there's a faint "Buzz Buzz" sound just 2 noises right after each other only when I turn the system on.

Setup
Stock Headunit Fiber optic :/
Stock Amp Speaker wire to the MS-8 Front Right and Front Left signal
MS-8 Krystle Kables to the Amps
Zed Leviathan 
DD M2C
Sound qubed pro 6.5's
CDT T28's
DD 3515
No rear speakers in use but I did plan on trying the stock ones 

2 1/0 runs of power both to the same Distribution block from the Distribution 1 1/0 to the sub amp 1 4 ga to the Zed 1 8 ga to the MS-8 
I did run a 1/0 from the negative to the trunk but I just bolted it to a tie down because I was told it doesn't help at all. 
The grounds are the same 1/0 4 ga and 8 ga all under 18 inches 
All sky high power wire.
The remote wire is coming from the fuse panel in the trunk and only turns on when the car is started :/ and I used the remote out off of the MS-8 for the other amps

I used NVX speaker wire throughout. The speaker wire coming out of my factory amp was twisted and I didn't use twisted but I didn't think that would effect anything 
Other than that I can't think of any reason for the noise 

I did upgrade the factory ground but I didn't upgrade the power wire from alternator to battery. but I don't have voltage drop issues


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## 14642

fourthmeal said:


> Thank you for the correction Andy. I didn't know the correlation changed.


Power is 10log(W1/W2)

That's because P = (E^2)/R


----------



## cueball981

fourthmeal said:


> You can but you're running out of channels.
> 
> 1. LF tweeter
> 2. RF tweeter
> 3. LF woofer
> 4. RF woofer
> 5. Center
> 6. LR speaker
> 7. RR speaker
> 8. Sub
> 
> 9?? This would in theory be your center rear. But realistically, I'd rate it as a pretty low priority amongst the other channels.


Okay, makes sense. I'll keep my extra speaker then as a replacement in case the front center blows (not likely though...lol!). Can't wait to get this stuff in and running! Going to take my time though with this build. I want it to look and sound super clean. Thinking 3 or 4 months to completion. 

Chris


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## idelgado782

Hey everyone. I'm looking to add DSP in my car to replace my LC7i. I've looked at many different units. Currently trying to narrowing it down to an alpine h800 and someone suggested the Ms8. I have thought about this unit many times and when I've mentioned it to a few installers they have all told me to stay away from the unit because it has been unreliable and not the best sound quality. One of the reasons why I leaned towards the ms8 is because of the auto tune features. I have decent equipment in the car. Hertz high energys comps and coax. Hertz hdp4 amp. Alpine sub and amp for bass. I've been saving money and want to make the decision I'll be the happiest with. For those of you who have been with the unit for some time what are you thoughts? Have you been fairly happy or given the chance would you have gone with a different unit. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FordEscape

idelgado782 said:


> .... I'm looking to add DSP in my car to .... Currently trying to narrowing it down to an alpine h800 and someone suggested the Ms8. .... I leaned towards the ms8 is because of the auto tune features..... For those of you who have been with the unit for some time what are you thoughts? Have you been fairly happy or given the chance would you have gone with a different unit.


As a first-time DSP owner, 9 months in, I'm *more than happy *with the MS-8.

+ Auto calibration + other built-in controls gives plenty of ability to 'optimize' and adapt to system changes.
+ No PC or $250 extra 'RUX' remote device required - it is complete as packaged.
+ Unlike H800 the calibration mics are in a 'headset' ... exactly where your ears are located, no tripod/mic stand hassles.
+ Absolutely no reliability issues for me - rock solid from day 1.
+ _Unmatched support on this forum_.

I did my own install and would do it again in a heartbeat, no consideration of another DSP. *If like me you're much more interested in listening to great sounding music playback than becoming a 'perpetual tuner', I'd say the MS-8 is a no-brainer.*

One observation from reading this entire thread and other related MS-8 posts: It strikes me that many of the folks with MS-8 'problems' had a shop do the install rather than doing it themselves and diligently following the installation/setup/calibration instructions. Seems a lot of 'commercial installers' have their own (NOT) 'better idea' of how to install without following the manufacturer instructions. If you use a commercial installer, they MUST be enthusiastic and experienced MS-8 installers .... its foolish to expect good results from an installer that's otherwise inclined.

If you've already got everything wired to the inputs/outputs of an LC7, inserting an MS-8 in its place should be a snap.


----------



## Lanson

cueball981 said:


> Okay, makes sense. I'll keep my extra speaker then as a replacement in case the front center blows (not likely though...lol!). Can't wait to get this stuff in and running! Going to take my time though with this build. I want it to look and sound super clean. Thinking 3 or 4 months to completion.
> 
> Chris


In that case, I would recommend doing techflex/heatshrink on all wiring, you can color-code with techflex using black with (insert color stripe here) and I use that to code black with white stripe for left channel, etc., and there's blue, green, yellow, purple, and some others so you can pretty much make it perfect. Furryletters on eBay is the man for that stuff. And for connectors, try using XT60 high-current connectors, you can buy a big bulk of them on eBay for about $20, and do the whole car perfectly. These small things with a little bit of obsession to detail really makes a beautiful install. Oh, and consider a wire label maker and crystal-clear heatshrink, if you want to next-level that ****.


----------



## naiku

OK, so in need of some expert help here. No matter what I try the bass still comes from the rear of the car. I can get some improvement, but still not what it once was before changing subs. 

I have tried multiple sweeps from -25 to -50, sub/front crossover from 60Hz to 100Hz, 12/18/24 slopes. Reverse phase of sub during calibration then swap back after. Nothing appears to work. 

The only thing I am left to try is crossing the sub at the amp. If I do that, do I use the same crossover value on the MS8 during calibration for the sub?

Anything else to try? I remember a post from Andy about subs in a small sealed enclosure which is exactly what I have, not sure if that is the issue though or what the cure is.


----------



## Lanson

Well did you work on the EQ after calibration, and see if you can fine-tune the midbass so it blends better to the front? I had "rear" bass on a few setups I've done, mostly because the front speakers just weren't up to the task of keeping up with the sub at the volume requested of the owner. But in my Flex, I was able to run larger midbass woofers, and with a modest substage the bass stays fairly well anchored to the front. EQ'ing the blend between sub and woofer helped a lot. 



naiku said:


> OK, so in need of some expert help here. No matter what I try the bass still comes from the rear of the car. I can get some improvement, but still not what it once was before changing subs.
> 
> I have tried multiple sweeps from -25 to -50, sub/front crossover from 60Hz to 100Hz, 12/18/24 slopes. Reverse phase of sub during calibration then swap back after. Nothing appears to work.
> 
> The only thing I am left to try is crossing the sub at the amp. If I do that, do I use the same crossover value on the MS8 during calibration for the sub?
> 
> Anything else to try? I remember a post from Andy about subs in a small sealed enclosure which is exactly what I have, not sure if that is the issue though or what the cure is.


----------



## naiku

fourthmeal said:


> Well did you work on the EQ after calibration, and see if you can fine-tune the midbass so it blends better to the front? I had "rear" bass on a few setups I've done, mostly because the front speakers just weren't up to the task of keeping up with the sub at the volume requested of the owner. But in my Flex, I was able to run larger midbass woofers, and with a modest substage the bass stays fairly well anchored to the front. EQ'ing the blend between sub and woofer helped a lot.


You know, that is one thing I have not really played around with. If nothing else it's worth a shot. Am I correct in that you are bumping up frequencies around where the sub/mid crossover point is at?


----------



## Lanson

naiku said:


> You know, that is one thing I have not really played around with. If nothing else it's worth a shot. Am I correct in that you are bumping up frequencies around where the sub/mid crossover point is at?


With the MS-8, every install I've ever done requires a bump in the EQ in the midbass range, as the MS-8 tends to flatten this more than I or most people I install for, prefer. BUT, then I usually cut right after the midbass point, a few dB down, and this is the part that really helps bring the sub out of the trunk. Of course, having a solid deadening/sealing process that prevents high frequency rattles and such completes the illusion.


----------



## naiku

fourthmeal said:


> With the MS-8, every install I've ever done requires a bump in the EQ in the midbass range, as the MS-8 tends to flatten this more than I or most people I install for, prefer. BUT, then I usually cut right after the midbass point, a few dB down, and this is the part that really helps bring the sub out of the trunk. Of course, having a solid deadening/sealing process that prevents high frequency rattles and such completes the illusion.


Playing with the EQ a little in traffic on the way to work this morning, which on the face of it appears to have been an improvement. Over the weekend I think I will do another tune and tweak around with the EQ.


----------



## Volvo_S80

Volvo_S80 said:


> Hello, I installed a MS-8 a couple months ago. I had some alternator whine after the install but after separating the grounds to my amps that went away, but there was always an "airplane noise" after some research I saw that having the calibrating headset still plugged in could cause this. I did have it still plugged in but that's because I was still trying to get it to sound the way i wanted it too, re-doing the calibration every now and then I figured once I found the right tuning i would disconnect the headset and the noise would go away. After deciding to finally keep the setting I unplug the headset and the noise is still there.... Thinking it might still be a grounding problem I started moving grounds again and still the same noise with no change. So I decided to take both my amps out of the equation and used only the internal amp on the MS-8 hooked right up to the front 2 way speakers. Still the noise was there. It was a bit quieter but still the same high pitched noise. I moved the ground once again still the same noise. I'm starting to think its just the MS-8 unit itself. Also while I was on my mission to eliminate this noise I noticed that when I start up the MS-8 there's a faint "Buzz Buzz" sound just 2 noises right after each other only when I turn the system on.
> 
> Setup
> Stock Headunit Fiber optic :/
> Stock Amp Speaker wire to the MS-8 Front Right and Front Left signal
> MS-8 Krystle Kables to the Amps
> Zed Leviathan
> DD M2C
> Sound qubed pro 6.5's
> CDT T28's
> DD 3515
> No rear speakers in use but I did plan on trying the stock ones
> 
> 2 1/0 runs of power both to the same Distribution block from the Distribution 1 1/0 to the sub amp 1 4 ga to the Zed 1 8 ga to the MS-8
> I did run a 1/0 from the negative to the trunk but I just bolted it to a tie down because I was told it doesn't help at all.
> The grounds are the same 1/0 4 ga and 8 ga all under 18 inches
> All sky high power wire.
> The remote wire is coming from the fuse panel in the trunk and only turns on when the car is started :/ and I used the remote out off of the MS-8 for the other amps
> 
> I used NVX speaker wire throughout. The speaker wire coming out of my factory amp was twisted and I didn't use twisted but I didn't think that would effect anything
> Other than that I can't think of any reason for the noise
> 
> I did upgrade the factory ground but I didn't upgrade the power wire from alternator to battery. but I don't have voltage drop issues



So I contacted JBL and I have sent my MS-8 in. Hopefully I will get a quiet one in return. I just spliced the speaker wires coming from the factory amp and the speaker wires going to my mid/tweeters just to see if I was picking up any noise through my speaker wire runs and it was silent. So it must have been the MS-8. Fingers crossed.


----------



## baruch1

Does anyone have a schematic for the ms8. Purchased a refurbished ms8 on eBay back in May, everything was fine until a few days ago and I think the amp section went bad. I am not receiving any output from speakers. The center does work but it crackles. 

I called JBL and its not covered under warranty, they want me to ship it to Adams electronics in Huntington Beach who services their products. If I can get a schematic, I might be able to get one of our bench technicians diagnose and fix the issue. 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## 14642

^^ HAve them replace the amplifier IC.


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## baruch1

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ^^ HAve them replace the amplifier IC.


Im hoping it's that simple and nothing else is affected.... I did find the service manual online. Wish me luck

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## fahadco80

Guys,

I just installed my MS8, I am trying to choose the channels with the xovers and slops, but when I finish choosing, there is no (DONE) option on the MS8 screen.

Please help, how can I finish this setup and continue to the next screen?

Regards

Fahad


----------



## fahadco80

Hi All,

I managed to do this setup from the beginning and the (DONE) showed up this time (I really do NOT know how, but it was there this time).

The sound was awful, its even awful when I turn the option (processing) off but it was a little better, any one nows how to setup the Xover settings on this device? I am really new to this and here in my country no one nows or heard about DSP, my speakers specs are below if someone can figure out from the specs:


*-Subs: 2x HERTZ ENERGY ES200.5 (factory location) 200 RMS
-Centre: 1x HERTZ HI-ENERGY HL 70 (factory location) 50 RMS
-Rear Deck: pair HERTZ DCX87.3 (factory location) 30 RMS
-Rear Sides: pair HERTZ HCX 690 (new fabricated location) 130 RMS
-Doors: pair HERTZ HSK 163 (3 WAY) (mid-bass factory location, tweeters and mid-ranges new fabricated pods locations on A pillar) 150 RMS

-Sub's AMP: JBL MS-A5001
-Speakers AMP: 2 x JBL MS-A1004
-And the MS-8 DSP*


-The HCX690 are parallel with the DCX87.3 on the rear

-The 2 subs are parallel too (one channel in, two channels out) like in the manual diagram (but when in the channel test mode, the subs channel was the only one that did NOT get sound.

-I used the crossover that comes with the HSK 163 to power the tweeters and mid-ranges

-Separate channel to power the mid-bass

-And a separate channel to the center



*If any other info can help, I would be happy to provide.
*

*PLEASE HELP ME WITH THE SETTINGS, I am really stuck
*

Regards

Fahad


----------



## Lord Raven

Fahad,

Congratulations on your new setups with MS8, I had the same feeling when I started doing my build in Saudi Arabia. I need to figure out what are you actually trying to do.

Ok, you're doing Quasi Active with your HSK163 crossovers (4 channels). Your surround speakers (DCX87.3 + HCX690) are in parallel connection on amplifier (2 channels). Your subwoofer ES200.5 is 4 + 4 = 2 Ohm connected to MS-A5001 as a single channels (Or maybe 2 channels assigned on MS8).

Correct me if I am wrong?

Now, you have to setup your front stage as a 2-way system.

-erase your current settings
-do the initial setup with MS8 CD
-select subwoofer (I think you have your subs in parallel, since amp only has a single channel so you can only setup sub as 1, and not 2. Put 2 subs on one channel)
-set subsonic according to your enclosure, 20Hz. Select slope 24db (you can try different options to your liking)
-set sub crossover point and slope, maybe from 50 to 80Hz, it's your choice. Slope 24db
-in the front setup, select 2 way
-select your lo/hi as default, try different points, maybe 450Hz
-select center as 1 way
-then select sides and carefully connect your MS8 connections with your amplifiers
Edit:
-do channel assignments as per your connections from DSP to Amps
-do the output diagnostic and check sound from all speakers

Following video can be viewed as a reference, but it does 3-way active system without center and rear speakers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILEvpvrH57Q

Do the speaker test and set all amplifiers at 2v sensitivity before running the sweeps. Before calibration, check if all speakers have sound (pink noise) coming from them. Set the volume of MS8 around 50, sweeps should not be very loud, only barely listenable, just like normal conversation. Run drivers seat and report back.

 This is all I could remember, it's been a while that I ran a configuration on my MS8. Goodluck!


----------



## fahadco80

Lord Raven said:


> Fahad,
> 
> Congratulations on your new setups with MS8, I had the same feeling when I started doing my build in Saudi Arabia. I need to figure out what are you actually trying to do.
> 
> Ok, you're doing Quasi Active with your HSK163 crossovers (4 channels). Your surround speakers (DCX87.3 + HCX690) are in parallel connection on amplifier (2 channels). Your subwoofer ES200.5 is 4 + 4 = 2 Ohm connected to MS-A5001 as a single channels (Or maybe 2 channels assigned on MS8).
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong?
> 
> Now, you have to setup your front stage as a 2-way system.
> 
> -erase your current settings
> -do the initial setup with MS8 CD
> -select subwoofer (I think you have your subs in parallel, since amp only has a single channel so you can only setup sub as 1, and not 2. Put 2 subs on one channel)
> -set subsonic according to your enclosure, 20Hz. Select slope 24db (you can try different options to your liking)
> -set sub crossover point and slope, maybe from 50 to 80Hz, it's your choice. Slope 24db
> -in the front setup, select 2 way
> -select your lo/hi as default, try different points, maybe 450Hz
> -select center as 1 way
> -then select sides and carefully connect your MS8 connections with your amplifiers
> 
> Do the speaker test and set all amplifiers at 2v sensitivity before running the sweeps. Before calibration, check if all speakers have sound (pink noise) coming from them. Set the volume of MS8 around 50, sweeps should not be very loud, only barely listenable, just like normal conversation. Run drivers seat and report back.
> 
> This is all I could remember, it's been a while that I ran a configuration on my MS8. Goodluck!




Thanks for your time and reply,

-Every thing you statued is correct, but the subs, I have one channel from the MS8 going to the MS-A5001 and from there two channels going to each sub (but no pink noise coming from the subs).

All other speakers passed the pink noise test.

-How can I set the Amps at 2V, is it by entering the setup mode (holding the two buttons under the amp screen?

-I think the main problem from the Amps cause I really do not know how to turn OFF all the Xovers on them as well.

Again, thank a lot for your help, please let me know how to do the amps as well so I can try your MS8 setup along with the amp.

best regards

Fahad


----------



## Lord Raven

Fahad,

Two reasons that your subs are not playing pink noise, a) volume from MS8 is too low, b) improper gain setting from the amplifier

I tried to read the amp manuals but nothing is written there, see this video, looks like you have to insert a CD in your head unit and press a button and the amps do that gain setting automatically. *Caution* Don't do this with your speakers connected to your amplifiers, remove speaker cables from amplifiers and setup all your MS8 channels as full range to achieve this automatic settings. After it is done, you can plugs speaker cables back to amps and re run calibrations.

Watch this video for gain setting on your JBL amps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gcw9c8x4ks

-defeat all xover, bass boast, subsonic setting on your amplifiers. Otherwise it will not be able to tune the system with MS8 within it.

If you have any problem, talk to this guy in the JBL Customer Care, they are very responsive. Goto their website and launch a query, or try to write at this ID.

HCG Customer Support 5 [[email protected]]

Good luck!



fahadco80 said:


> Thanks for your time and reply,
> 
> -Every thing you statued is correct, but the subs, I have one channel from the MS8 going to the MS-A5001 and from there two channels going to each sub (but no pink noise coming from the subs).
> 
> All other speakers passed the pink noise test.
> 
> -How can I set the Amps at 2V, is it by entering the setup mode (holding the two buttons under the amp screen?
> 
> -I think the main problem from the Amps cause I really do not know how to turn OFF all the Xovers on them as well.
> 
> Again, thank a lot for your help, please let me know how to do the amps as well so I can try your MS8 setup along with the amp.
> 
> best regards
> 
> Fahad


----------



## 14642

For using the MS amps with MS-8, set the input sensitivity switch on "low" and turn the potentiometer all the way counter clockwise. That's about 2V. Also, turn the low pass filter on the amplifier to the highest value and the high pass filter to "off".


----------



## FordEscape

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> For using the MS amps with MS-8,...., turn the low pass filter on the amplifier to the highest value .....


First time I've seen that recommendation but of course you are the expert.

Can you help me understand how that is different from / preferable to setting the LP filter on the amp to "Off" when using the MS-8 filters for all channels?

Thanks!


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## Elgrosso

Yeah curious, maybe for the sub amp only?


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## mitchyz250f

I have centers and rears. When i lower the sound level to the center speaker does that sound go to the sides speakers or is it 'lost'? 

Same question for the rears also. When I lower the rears is that sound transferred to the front speakers or disappear?


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## subwoofery

mitchyz250f said:


> I have centers and rears. When i lower the sound level to the center speaker does that sound go to the sides speakers or is it 'lost'?
> 
> Same question for the rears also. When I lower the rears is that sound transferred to the front speakers or disappear?


In my understanding of how the MS-8 works, both sound will be lost. 

Kelvin


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## kwsjimmy

So i had the ms8 running with a 4ch amp driving the main 4 speakers, and a second amp for the sub. Changed my setup, removed the 4ch amp, and wired the speakers to the ms8 output harness, did a factory reset and reconfig and i get sound from the sub but not off anything driven by the ms8, any ideas?


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## silversound

2014 Chevrolet Spark, factory touch screen, non amplified, factory blue tooth and steering wheel controls. 

I had the MS8 (new from Amazon) installed at a local shop using the speaker out of the factory radio. Three amplifiers, tweeters, mids, sub. 

The MS8 was installed and the installer called me and said that he remote was not working to complete the set up. I got a remote from a friend and brought it to the installer. He then informs me that the MS8 will not power on. 

Returned the MS8 for a replacement. New one was received and installed. It powered up and ran the whole set up. Played fine for at least 30 minutes. Turned car off and then back on and the MS8 never came back on. 

Returned for another replacement. The third one was installed, set up and worked fine for at least three weeks. Brought the car to the shop for oil change and check tire monitor system. Picked up the car and had no stereo. Same problems as other two MS8's

Now I am using a Rockford 360.3 and its working fine,same wiring as MS8.

I would like to go back to the MS8 but dont want to chance another failure. 

Any suggestions.


----------



## Tweaked

silversound said:


> 2014 Chevrolet Spark, factory touch screen, non amplified, factory blue tooth and steering wheel controls.
> 
> I had the MS8 (new from Amazon) installed at a local shop using the speaker out of the factory radio. Three amplifiers, tweeters, mids, sub.
> 
> The MS8 was installed and the installer called me and said that he remote was not working to complete the set up. I got a remote from a friend and brought it to the installer. He then informs me that the MS8 will not power on.
> 
> Returned the MS8 for a replacement. New one was received and installed. It powered up and ran the whole set up. Played fine for at least 30 minutes. Turned car off and then back on and the MS8 never came back on.
> 
> Returned for another replacement. The third one was installed, set up and worked fine for at least three weeks. Brought the car to the shop for oil change and check tire monitor system. Picked up the car and had no stereo. Same problems as other two MS8's
> 
> Now I am using a Rockford 360.3 and its working fine,same wiring as MS8.
> 
> I would like to go back to the MS8 but dont want to chance another failure.
> 
> Any suggestions.


Strange, I just purchased an MS-8 directly from JBL and had it installed about 6 weeks ago. So far, no problems.


----------



## silversound

Tweaked said:


> Strange, I just purchased an MS-8 directly from JBL and had it installed about 6 weeks ago. So far, no problems.


Yeah sure is a strange issue. I really love the MS8 and would like to go back to it but not sure what was causing the failure. All three units had the same problem.


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## MikeF

Tweaked said:


> Strange, I just purchased an MS-8 directly from JBL and had it installed about 6 weeks ago. So far, no problems.


Strange ... I have been away from this forum for some time and only recently discovered the MS-8 had been discontinued while on the sonicelectronix site? Sent an email directly to JBL via their website when I saw they stated the item was "... currently not available.", only to receive a response which states "... the product was discontinued in 2010". In reviewing some recent posts here, it looks like some are still acquiring the MS-8. Are these all refurbished units, or is the Technical Support person who responded to me totally unaware?


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## The Max

Tweaked said:


> Strange, I just purchased an MS-8 directly from JBL and had it installed about 6 weeks ago. So far, no problems.


MS-8 | Car Audio DSP, Powered Digital Sound Processor

"Currently not available", which means discontinued to me. With JBL not producing another DSP to take its place, I think it clearly demonstrates how they no longer stand behind their products like they used to before Harman International bought them out. Luckily, they still produce decent home and studio speakers (high end only though - mid to low range speakers are crap in my opinion) but this is sufficient proof that the MS-8 was a failure which they didn't want to follow up on and appeal to a wider market than just the plug and play crowd. :dead_horse:

It also explains why Andy went his own way too. Good on him, I reckon. :2thumbsup:


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## Beckerson1

MikeF said:


> Strange ... I have been away from this forum for some time and only recently discovered the MS-8 had been discontinued while on the sonicelectronix site? Sent an email directly to JBL via their website when I saw they stated the item was "... currently not available.", only to receive a response which states "... the product was discontinued in 2010". In reviewing some recent posts here, it looks like some are still acquiring the MS-8. Are these all refurbished units, or is the Technical Support person who responded to me totally unaware?


They were iirc. The reason for them still having them was from in stock/refurbished units.


----------



## Beckerson1

The Max said:


> MS-8 | Car Audio DSP, Powered Digital Sound Processor
> 
> "Currently not available", which means discontinued to me. With JBL not producing another DSP to take its place, I think it clearly demonstrates how they no longer stand behind their products like they used to before Harman International bought them out. Luckily, they still produce decent home and studio speakers (high end only though - mid to low range speakers are crap in my opinion) but this is sufficient proof that the MS-8 was a failure which they didn't want to follow up on and appeal to a wider market than just the plug and play crowd. :dead_horse:
> 
> It also explains why Andy went his own way too. Good on him, I reckon. :2thumbsup:


The Ms8 was Andy's (or he had a major role in its design). Andy himself still, even though he doesn't work for them, comment and help out with the MS8.

They MS8 as a design/idea was solid. It was just never improved upon (such as its flaws) to bring the idea of a all in one OEM/aftermarket integration/dsp unit which anyone from beginner to pro can use.

I still feel the idea of a all in one unit that caters to the beginner (such as the auto tune/ ta) BUT have the advanced options (where I feel the ms8 failed) for those willing to learn and or already know. Such as the ability to customize TA, Independent EQ for all channels, ect.... this very reason was why I left the MS8 in the first place. No real option to push myself to learn what I have with a full manual dsp such as the 360.3


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## The Max

Beckerson1 said:


> They MS8 as a design/idea was solid. It was just never improved upon (such as its flaws) to bring the idea of a all in one OEM/aftermarket integration/dsp unit which anyone from beginner to pro can use.


Agreed.



> I still feel the idea of a all in one unit that caters to the beginner (such as the auto tune/ ta) BUT have the advanced options (where I feel the ms8 failed) for those willing to learn and or already know. Such as the ability to customize TA, Independent EQ for all channels, ect.... this very reason was why I left the MS8 in the first place.


That's exactly why I went to the Arc Audio PS8. Total control. Though I must admit, their software interface is a bit clunky too. It definitely has bugs that need fixing but all they do is slow the user down rather than stop them from achieving what they need to, unlike the MS-8 did with me.


----------



## camfreem7

MS-8 when set up correctly is the single greatest piece of audio gear I have bought, unfortunately it has been awhile since I have been able to get it set up correctly and it is diving me crazy.

So after countless hours of messing with it and my system i had it sounding heavenly, but when I got new tweeters i stupidly installed them myself and my old tweets didn't have positive and negative clearly designated so I must have hooked them up wrong. Now after trying every different combination at the amp I still can't find the combo that makes everything in phase and so my system doesn't sound very good.

I wonder how much it would cost to have Andy fly out and set my **** up correctly...


----------



## The Max

camfreem7 said:


> but when I got new tweeters i stupidly installed them myself and my old tweets didn't have positive and negative clearly designated so I must have hooked them up wrong. Now after trying every different combination at the amp I still can't find the combo that makes everything in phase and so my system doesn't sound very good.


You can't just switch the wires around? 



Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk


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## addie-boy

hi. i dont know if its the right thread to ask but since i am designing my system around the ms-8, i might just ask here. i heard of a "modified crossover" a lot of times but i dont understand. basically my planned speaker will be the 3 way morel virtus on a semi active configuration (with a 5 ch amp).
ch 1 and 3: midrange and tweeter using the 3 way passive crossover (both will be placed close together in the sailpanel)
ch 2 and 4: midbass in lower door (probably bandpassed from 80hz to 600 - 800 hz)
(i will have a sub to take care of 80hz down)

question: do i need to put anything on the output channel of the midbass portion of the 3 way passive crossover (like a resistor or something for that "modified" crossover) or just leave it open?

question 2: should i just go to a higher model (morel hybrid) on a 2 way full active configuration and make it less complicated? ( i mean, would there be much loss from a 3 way semi-active to a 2 way full active but higher model)


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## kaigoss69

It's a bit "messy" but I don't see why it wouldn't work. What you do is choose a 2-way front plus sub. MS-8 will assign the following channels:

FL Hi (left tweet and mid)
FR Hi (right tweet and mid)
FL Lo (left midbass)
FR Lo (right midbass)
Sub

Since the passive crossover has a built-in high-pass for the mids, I would first set the MS-8 hi/lo crossover at exactly the same setting as the passive. You may have to play with this since I am not sure what exactly the effects will be of the active & passive crossover combined. You can always raise the MS-8 hi/lo x-over to get away from the passive x-over high-pass, as long as the midbass speakers don't beam. You should also try flipping the phase of the midbass if you have any issues with the transition.

Going with the 2-way set-up will probably be easier from a set-up standpoint, but in my opinion there is no substitute for having mids high in the doors.



addie-boy said:


> hi. i dont know if its the right thread to ask but since i am designing my system around the ms-8, i might just ask here. i heard of a "modified crossover" a lot of times but i dont understand. basically my planned speaker will be the 3 way morel virtus on a semi active configuration (with a 5 ch amp).
> ch 1 and 3: midrange and tweeter using the 3 way passive crossover (both will be placed close together in the sailpanel)
> ch 2 and 4: midbass in lower door (probably bandpassed from 80hz to 600 - 800 hz)
> (i will have a sub to take care of 80hz down)
> 
> question: do i need to put anything on the output channel of the midbass portion of the 3 way passive crossover (like a resistor or something for that "modified" crossover) or just leave it open?
> 
> question 2: should i just go to a higher model (morel hybrid) on a 2 way full active configuration and make it less complicated? ( i mean, would there be much loss from a 3 way semi-active to a 2 way full active but higher model)


----------



## dengland

The Max said:


> You can't just switch the wires around?


Why don't you give Audio Tools app a try if you have an iPhone. It helped me a great deal figuring out my wiring. 

Link to app:
Audio Tools

Here it is in action (This particular clip shows how it is changing being above or below the Dash speaker. Below would mean the speaker excursion is moving away with a positive pules and towards with a negative pulse.)


----------



## addie-boy

Thanks. This is very helpful. So no adverse effect on leaving the midbass terminals of the passive crossover open?




kaigoss69 said:


> It's a bit "messy" but I don't see why it wouldn't work. What you do is choose a 2-way front plus sub. MS-8 will assign the following channels:
> 
> FL Hi (left tweet and mid)
> FR Hi (right tweet and mid)
> FL Lo (left midbass)
> FR Lo (right midbass)
> Sub
> 
> Since the passive crossover has a built-in high-pass for the mids, I would first set the MS-8 hi/lo crossover at exactly the same setting as the passive. You may have to play with this since I am not sure what exactly the effects will be of the active & passive crossover combined. You can always raise the MS-8 hi/lo x-over to get away from the passive x-over high-pass, as long as the midbass speakers don't beam. You should also try flipping the phase of the midbass if you have any issues with the transition.
> 
> Going with the 2-way set-up will probably be easier from a set-up standpoint, but in my opinion there is no substitute for having mids high in the doors.


----------



## kappa_md

Hi guys! I'm a very newbie/noob into car audio and i wanted to ask the gurus in helping me improved my current sound system 

Here it goes. I have a Corolla 2012 (10.5 gen) and i upgraded all my stock speakers all with straight JBL speakers and added a JBL 4-channel amplifier powering my 2 front components and 2 rears. 6 speaker system.

I have a JBL GTO 609c 6 1/2 2-way components .(front tweeters and front midrange) and I also replaced my rears with JBL GTO 939 6x9 3-way speakers. I have a JBL GTO 804 EZ 4 channel amplifier for my speakers. No sub. (I like the space in my trunk and just wanted good pleasure SQ sound which can just really relax you after a hard day's work, plus the added weight at the back of the trunk is a downside)

My head unit is the OEM 2-din 7inch unit with usual radio, dvd, gps, iPod connection etc.

I was pretty happy with the upgrade coming from stock speakers and for awhile i thought it sounded great. But then i stumbled into the JBL MS-8. The reviews were pretty amazing, a lot of revolutionary ideas were up with making any stock car sound system great. My head unit does not have much calibration setup unlike the aftermarket HU and i like the stock look of my interior. After much debate in myself, i gave into the "itch" and added the JBL MS-8 system.

I just recently installed my JBL MS-8 with the official distributor here and i wanted to learn more and do a tweaking with the calibration etc. Since i am a so noob into car audio, the JBL MS-8 was installed by an installer from JBL (only a very few know how this works)

I made my front speakers in active crossover and kept the rear for full range (no center channel, no sides and no subs)

My setup is like this.

Front R tweeters --> MS8 amplifier - Channel 1
Front L tweeters --> MS8 amplifier - Channel 2
Front R midrange --> JBL amplifier - Channel 3
Front L midrange --> JBL amplifier - Channel 4
Rear R --> JBL amplifier - Channel 5
Rear L --> JBL amplifier - Channel 6

Now my question is, can anyone help me how to go about with the calibration? I do get a fuzzy sound right after doing the whole setup.

After doing the input with the CD, my next dilemma is actually configuring the "right/perfect crossover"

This is how i made it,

Sub - None
Front - 2 way
Front Hi pass - 30 Hz
Front Hi pass slope - 12dB
Front Lo/Hi Xover - 3500 Hz
Front Lo/Hi Slope - 24dB
Center - None
Sides - 1 way (for my rears)
Side Hi pass - 100 Hz
Side Hi pass slope - 24dB
Rear - skipped

6 channels then Done. (Am i doing the correct Hz/dB etc?)

I went into the output diagnostics and acoustic calibrations as mentioned in the manual.

It was mentioned that i should keep Logic 7 ON, even if i don't have a centre channel BUT have rear speakers.

My problem is, when i put Logic 7 ON, i do hear some background echo of the song coming from the rears but when i put it OFF, i feel like the sounds are not coming in the front but coming from the rear speakers. 

Can anyone help me or put me into the right direction? Sorry for the long thread! 
Hope to hear from you guys and advance thanks to all!


----------



## 14642

Beckerson1 said:


> The Ms8 was Andy's (or he had a major role in its design). Andy himself still, even though he doesn't work for them, comment and help out with the MS8.
> 
> They MS8 as a design/idea was solid. It was just never improved upon (such as its flaws) to bring the idea of a all in one OEM/aftermarket integration/dsp unit which anyone from beginner to pro can use.
> 
> I still feel the idea of a all in one unit that caters to the beginner (such as the auto tune/ ta) BUT have the advanced options (where I feel the ms8 failed) for those willing to learn and or already know. Such as the ability to customize TA, Independent EQ for all channels, ect.... this very reason was why I left the MS8 in the first place. No real option to push myself to learn what I have with a full manual dsp such as the 360.3


As long as I live I'll never understand why this request has any technical validity. As a matter of consumer preference, I get it. 

The Auto EQ matches the channels. That's what separate left and right EQs are for. The 31-band EQ is applied to all the channels AFTER they are matched. 

And as far as "tweaking delays" goes, why? MS-8s algorithm does a much better job than doing it by ear, with a tape measure or by measuring impulse responses and trying to figure out what they mean. 

For all of this to work correctly, the system has to be one of the 48 systems MS-8 will accommodate and it has to be installed according to the very basic rules of building an audio system. A tweeter for a center channel, a sub that doesn't make bass, mono rear fill, multiple tweeters or coaxials AND tweeters in the front and a host of other bizarro system designs are not supported.


----------



## sqnut

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> As long as I live I'll never understand why this request has any technical validity. As a matter of consumer preference, I get it.


It's down to us manual tweakers unending OCD desire to make it sound better and once you're hearing accurately and you get intuitive with the eq, the sound keeps getting better. But there are always defects, so that keeps you going till the sound gets good enough and you get tired of it, or if you're competing, I guess you just keep going.

To do this we need full control on timing and response, with the finest possible resolution. We are incredibly sensitive to both timing and response differences. A ta change of 0.01 ms can be qualified as better or worse, same with a 0.1db change on the eq. I'm not sure at what resolution the TA and eq is set on the MS8, but if its lower than these, then I want manual control and the finest possible resolution.

I hope that makes sense.


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## kaigoss69

addie-boy said:


> Thanks. This is very helpful. So no adverse effect on leaving the midbass terminals of the passive crossover open?


 Correct, just don't use the midbass terminals.


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## Volvo_S80

I'm still struggling with my install. Here's what I have
Stock head unit 
Fiber Optic to factory amp
Line level from factory amp to JBL MS-8
RCA's (Knu) from MS-8 to Zed Leviathan III and to DD M2C 
All Sky high power and ground

I've had a hard time the whole install but have learned quite a bit as well. I had some engine whine and a hissing noise I figured out the whine and settled with the hiss. One day I cracked and decided to find the hiss, I went straight for the MS-8 and hooked it up right to the speakers not using any of my amps so they were powered by the internal amp on the MS-8. The noise was not as loud but still there. So I sent the MS-8 in to be replaced. 

After a long wait it's install time again. I hooked everything back up again do my first acoustic measurement, unplug the mic, press done....... and hisssssss once again. So I start trying to isolate the sound once again. First I unplug the RCA's from my zed and plug shorted RCA's the hiss is nearly gone but I can still hear a faint something not sure if this is from my seriously low quality shorted RCA's or something else. The noise is not loud or intrusive, when I have the car running you can't hear it. So I don't know if i'm being over sensitive or not. 

I flipped back and forth between the shorted RCA's and the RCA's coming from the MS-8, the MS-8 RCA's are much louder for sure. So I took the RCA's out from there tucked in location and spread them out so they were dangling outside of the trunk, no change in the noise at all.

Next I decided to try and ground the RCA's and that was a horrible idea. It was very noisy to say the least. After that I removed the line level input to the MS-8 and still the noise was there. So I go to home depot and buy a multi meter to test the resistance between my battery and grounds I used some spare wire I had and connected it to my battery terminal and walked it over to the trunk everything tested 0.0 . So then I decided to run a power wire outside of my car to the MS-8 and zed. Still the noise remains.

The Zed with shorted RCA's creates very little noise (the least) but still noise and I'm not satisfied with it.

The MS-8 makes noise being used as the sole amp. It's quieter for sure the 2nd quietest overall

The MS-8 and zed used together creates the most noise. It does get louder when I turn the gains up, but from the about 1.4 mark down (1/2 way) it stays the same, The loudest.

This is my 2nd MS-8 and it's still noisy. What do I do next? Is it possible my car is responsible? 2008 Volvo S80 T6 
The noise from the MS-8 is too loud to just deal with considering the amount of money spent. But am I being oversensitive about the Zed? it's slight but noise is noise. Any tips are appreciated.


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## SQLnovice

What volume level is the MS-8?


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## Volvo_S80

I'm glad you asked that. At first I was so sure that wouldn't change anything because it didn't work previously but I just went outside to try and boom it worked, currently I have just the MS-8 powering my speakers because that's the least intrusive noise. The volume was maxed at 0 the noise goes out around -15  The only downside is that at -15 you can easily talk over the maxed volume from my RCA input (my Iphone) I will have to hook the zed back up and go from there. Previously I had the gain on the zed set to ~2v for the calibration and I had the hiss noise all the way down to -80 and it would go away with mute. This time around I didn't even try that.... assuming I'd get the same result. Maybe the gains were too high all along. /facepalm


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## joaozelo

Finally, after 4 months fix my JBL ms8 in Brazil. Could you help me in the configuration? 
My equipment: JL zr650- csi + JL Slash 300/ 4v3, Image Dynamics idq12d2v4 + Rockford Fosgate T1000- 1bdcp. The sub is in a box 1.5 cu ft 36Hz. Which the best settings in the processor, Slope etc...? thank you!!


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## SQLnovice

Volvo_S80 said:


> I'm glad you asked that. At first I was so sure that wouldn't change anything because it didn't work previously but I just went outside to try and boom it worked, currently I have just the MS-8 powering my speakers because that's the least intrusive noise. The volume was maxed at 0 the noise goes out around -15  The only downside is that at -15 you can easily talk over the maxed volume from my RCA input (my Iphone) I will have to hook the zed back up and go from there. Previously I had the gain on the zed set to ~2v for the calibration and I had the hiss noise all the way down to -80 and it would go away with mute. This time around I didn't even try that.... assuming I'd get the same result. Maybe the gains were too high all along. /facepalm


I would do some more noise troubleshooting on the installation side. I had the MS-8 installed along with 3 JBL MS amps and I had zero noise. I decided to change things up a little and got 3 other amps. My instillation was not as clean as the first and was a little sloppier with the 2nd set of amps which caused a little hiss. On the second set of amps, I knew it was my error causing the noise or could have been the amps. However, the hiss did went away at around 15 also, and similar to your situation, it wasn't as loud.
I would also connect the amp by itself just to see if the amp is giving off any noise too.


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## Volvo_S80

SQLnovice said:


> I would do some more noise troubleshooting on the installation side. I had the MS-8 installed along with 3 JBL MS amps and I had zero noise. I decided to change things up a little and got 3 other amps. My instillation was not as clean as the first and was a little sloppier with the 2nd set of amps which caused a little hiss. On the second set of amps, I knew it was my error causing the noise or could have been the amps. However, the hiss did went away at around 15 also, and similar to your situation, it wasn't as loud.
> I would also connect the amp by itself just to see if the amp is giving off any noise too.



The amp alone with shorted RCA's did make a noise. I was totally expecting 0 noise. I do want to clean up the install a bit I'm having a hard time being creative in building a decent amp rack. But even with the power wires ran outside of the car I had noise. I also hooked a speaker up right from the trunk with 2 feet of speaker wire and still had noise. What have I missed?


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## SQLnovice

My knowledge is very limited in the car audio area. However, here is a link with some threads that may help:

Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum - Search Results


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## Volvo_S80

Ok I went out and played with it a bit more.

There is always a noise. When I press the mute button the noise seems to disappear because it drops so drastically same with the -15 volume setting. It seems to be gone but it is still there it's a static noise. The only time it actually stops is when the MS-8 shuts shuts off completely. The noise will stay there until the 2 second delay shuts the other amp off. Also the noise stays weather or not I am on the Head unit or the Aux settings on the MS-8. It does get louder if I go into audio controls and bump up the AUX volume control. It does not move when I use the front/rear Left/right settings


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## ramsa1

I have a question guys. Last night in an attempt to squeeze more volume out of my ms8, i plugged the HU into the AUX input on the ms8. I then raised the AUX volume in the system levels to almost max and the main level to -6db. It sound fine and get loud now.
Is there any downside to doing this?


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## kaigoss69

ramsa1 said:


> I have a question guys. Last night in an attempt to squeeze more volume out of my ms8, i plugged the HU into the AUX input on the ms8. I then raised the AUX volume in the system levels to almost max and the main level to -6db. It sound fine and get loud now.
> Is there any downside to doing this?


What you've done is perfectly fine, as long as you're not clipping the inputs. My experience has been that there is no difference in system volume between the regular RCA inputs and the Aux inputs.


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## 14642

kaigoss69 said:


> Correct, just don't use the midbass terminals.



This is correct ONLY if the midbass low pass is a first order crossover. If it includes a shunt component it will present a short to the amplifier.


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## turbo1023

I just recently purchased the ms-8. I'm running all infinity kappa speakers with 1 sub, infinity kappa5 driving them. I'm looking for a decent center channel that will fit into a single din opening for my center speaker. Any ideas? I only have 4 RCA outputs running to the amp as well, so any configuration help would be greatly appreciated. Do I use y-adapters? Lol I'm new to this forum thing and not to sure how to navigate through it so my email is [email protected] gmail.com if anyone can give me a few ideas


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## addie-boy

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> This is correct ONLY if the midbass low pass is a first order crossover. If it includes a shunt component it will present a short to the amplifier.


Change of plan then. Since my setup would be like the midbass (6") and midrange (3") would sit very close together (from the stock 6x9 location at the lower door), and the tweeter (1") at the sail panel, I think the best option would be to run full 3-way active since the ms-8 will be there to assist me with the tuning (zero experience with this stuff but eager to learn)

Does anybody had success running the midbass & midrange with an external amplifier (125w rms) while the tweeter is using the ms8 amp (20w)? my initial speaker choice is the morel virtus (140rms midbass, 100rms midrange and 80rms tweeter). Somebody here pointed that 20w for the tweeter is pretty loud but the 80w rms for the morel tweets caught my attention.


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## I800C0LLECT

Actually...that's what I'm doing right now with my 3-way. The MS-8 is set to -20 for volume while it's tuned and I set it to -10 or -15 afterwards.

The tweeter is crossed at 3.2KHz/24db slope. I did a lot of searching and there's a rough formula that will help give you an idea of how much potential power is sent to the tweeter vs. the full 20Hz to 20KHz spectrum. I haven't had any issues yet.

I was hitting mechanical limits of my free air 2.5" mids but I was hitting close to 115db A-weighted with music on my radioshack meter.

As long as you aren't crossing any lower than I did I think you'll be fine. The higher you cross the less concern you should have for power requirement.


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## addie-boy

Great. Good to hear that. I reread Andy's post about keeping the midrange and tweeter together and that it is of little benefit to run the tweeter active.

Question: If I really want to make it stock (midrange at the bottom part of the door and tweeter at the sail panel), would the ms8 be able to correct any "issues" with this speaker placement?


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## I800C0LLECT

This all goes back to how we locate sounds. Bottom line is that your tweeter is identified through amplitude. As long as you have a potentiometer or level adjustment you're good to go. Time align to the mid and adjust total output of each tweeter.


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## addie-boy

Thanks, yes this makes sense. Time alignment for the midbass/midrange frequencies and volume for the tweeters. And if I cant adjust the volume of the tweeter (powered by the MS8 amp), I can just level match using the gain settings of the big amp powering the midrange, midbass and sub. "-)

Will be starting the install this weekend.


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## addie-boy

Another thought, in your opinion, which would be a better starting point:

Option 1: Two way system (Easier to install/lower Fs for the midbass/speakers are 1 step higher end than option 2/A little higher in power handling)
1&2: Active tweeter (2500Hz up) at the sail panel
3&4: Active 6.5 midbass (60Hz to 2500HZ) low in door
5&6: Rear speakers (100Hz up)
7: 
8: SUB (20Hz to 60Hz)

or Option 2 (harder to install, higher Fs, no rear fill) :
1&2: Active tweeter (4000Hz up) at the sail panel
3&4: Active 3 midrange (1000Hz to 4000Hz) low in door
5&6: Active 6.5 midbass (80Hz to 1000Hz) low in door beside midrange
7: 
8: SUB (20Hz to 80Hz)

I remembered that I was set on Option 1 for simplicity but I read somewhere that if a 2 way is crossed lower (2-3khz), male vocals tend to be pulled down. I cant cross the 6.5 higher due to beaming. Is there any truth to this?


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## camfreem7

dengland said:


> Why don't you give Audio Tools app a try if you have an iPhone. It helped me a great deal figuring out my wiring.
> 
> Link to app:
> Audio Tools
> 
> Here it is in action (This particular clip shows how it is changing being above or below the Dash speaker. Below would mean the speaker excursion is moving away with a positive pules and towards with a negative pulse.)


Thank you for this i don't have an iphone but the wife does so I will use her. I had tried every different combination of positive and negative for each tweeter at the amp as it is hard to get to the wires at the tweeter and was driving myself crazy trying to find out which was the correct one. I had totally stopped listening to music in the car or coming to this forum for months I was so down about how bad it sounded.

However, I have finally gotten a calibration that sounds almost as good as before I recalibrated after installing the new tweeters so now I am confident I will be able to tell how to correctly wire them with the help of the app.


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## firebri

My MS8 experience...

Just finished my install. Equipment as follows:

Kenwood Excelon 997 with all internals bypassed
MS8
JL Audio HD 600/4
JL Audio HD 1200/1
Morel Hybrid 602 Components active in front doors
Morel Ultimo 124 in sealed box designed by Dave the Box Guy
Custom RCA's from WestCo
Tinned OFC cables and speaker wires from Knu
XS Power 3400R battery

See my install thread here

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ll-gallery/172429-2015-kia-soul-sq-build.html

I mostly listen to hard/classic rock, but my tastes vary widely.

Read through all the posts, tips, and many exchanges had by members and Andy. Have to say the setup was amazingly easy. I set the MS8 to -30db, set my HD's on low voltage with the gain all the way up, which was supposed to be 2 volts as per Andy, and ran through the calibration. The first thing I noticed was a loud hiss from the speakers. I dialed back the gains on both amps until it went away, then I proceeded. After the calibration, I ran the volume on the MS8 up to 0db, so I could use my head unit volume control. The first thing I noticed was that the music had no balls. The Ultimo is supposed to be a very transparent sub, so I just chalked it up to that...not to mention the sealed enclosure. In the end, I ended up bumping up the sub setting almost half way, and also bumped up the bass setting just beneath that. I believe I've found my sweet spot, and couldn't be happier. The clarity of the soundstage is amazing, and the sub hits tight and deep. 

I was surprised at having to back the gains down, especially after reading some posts between Andy and another guy with my same amps. I was led to believe that the low setting turned all the way clockwise was where I needed to be. Other than that, I can't really complain. Now I just look for excuses to go for a drive!


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## firebri

Quick bass question.

I'd like to think I've read the majority of the posts in this insanely long thread, but I don't recall seeing anything quite like my experience, but I may have missed it. You can see my setup above, including my sub and bass settings. I did the calibration for each seating position. My sub and bass settings were each bumped up 8 notches after calibration, and as I said, I seemed to have found the perfect level of low freq. However, I've had a couple occasions where the bass suddenly became extremely loud without any adjustment by me. When I say suddenly, I mean in the middle of a song. Very strange. It seemed to show itself around the time I switched the seating audio position from Driver to something else. I tried recalibrating everything, and resetting my sub and bass. It did it one more time, I stopped the CD and started it again and it seems to be OK now. It would appear it's intermittent, and I can't seem to reproduce it at will. Anyone else experience anything like this?


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## Lord Raven

firebri said:


> Quick bass question.
> 
> I'd like to think I've read the majority of the posts in this insanely long thread, but I don't recall seeing anything quite like my experience, but I may have missed it. You can see my setup above, including my sub and bass settings. I did the calibration for each seating position. My sub and bass settings were each bumped up 8 notches after calibration, and as I said, I seemed to have found the perfect level of low freq. However, I've had a couple occasions where the bass suddenly became extremely loud without any adjustment by me. When I say suddenly, I mean in the middle of a song. Very strange. It seemed to show itself around the time I switched the seating audio position from Driver to something else. I tried recalibrating everything, and resetting my sub and bass. It did it one more time, I stopped the CD and started it again and it seems to be OK now. It would appear it's intermittent, and I can't seem to reproduce it at will. Anyone else experience anything like this?


Don't change any settings from amplifiers after the setup. Do level matching before, and if you want more bass then use sub control from levels settings.


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## firebri

I haven't touched my amps since the initial setup after install was complete. Everything sounded great. Like I said, the only thing I can put my finger on is that I changed seating positions with the MS8. I'd gone a few days with Driver set without any problem. It wasn't until I switched from Driver to some other setting that the issue showed up. It's almost like switching from one to the other during playback confuses it or something.


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## SQLnovice

I don't know if this is related. In one of my previous calibration in the scion xb (I recently sold it) when I switched listing position to the passenger seat, the bass from the sub was hitting much harder than when it was set to the driver position. I'll be reinstalling the MS-8 in my new vehicle and can't wait to start planning around with it. I now have the Dayton USB microphone so this will help in setting the eq.


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## The Max

Lord Raven said:


> Don't change any settings from amplifiers after the setup. Do level matching before, and if you want more bass then use sub control from levels settings.


That wasn't the problem he was referring to. 

I had this happen when setting up my MS8. I also had the display often lock up on me too when the audio went suddenly loud and maladjusted.

In short, nothing could be done without the attention of a JBL tech. The response time was slow and the replies weren't very helpful. I sold it a few days later and went with something else. 

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk


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## firebri

I did a microprocessor reset and it seems to be ok now. Keeping my fingers crossed..


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## The Max

firebri said:


> I did a microprocessor reset and it seems to be ok now. Keeping my fingers crossed..


I hope it works for you because it did nothing for me. 

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk


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## kevinduckworth

Can anyone share their experience with the MS-8 in dealing with Chrysler's "Upgraded Alpine" systems that have a center speaker? 
It is apparent that the factory center contains a lot of info in both music & navigational voice prompts, as well as hands-free speakerphone. 

I foresee having to include the factory amp's center's feed into the mix for the MS-8's high-level inputs, despite JBL's insistence to keep it just left & right. Does this DSP allow an input to be earmarked as center during input config, handling it accordingly? Or would I have to include the factory center's output into BOTH, the L & R mixes on the MS-8's inputs? If this is done, what about the load on the factory amp... Is it problematic to basically Y its output into 2 inputs of the MS-8?

I'm weighing it all out... electrical-loading dos/don'ts vs. inclusion of all musical information vs. configuration capabilities of the DSP. I picked-up a brand-new MS-8, just before they went discontinued back in the Spring & will be building the system next week. 
Thanks for any thoughts here... Andy, feel free to chime in, expert input only!


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## firebri

Crossover point mid/hi...

Guess this could apply to any DSP. The default/recommended crossover point on the MS8 between mid/hi is 3500hz...My question is this....My Morel Hybrid 602's specify a crossover point of 2200hz with the passive crossovers included with the set. Should I match the active crossover point in the MS8 with this frequency? The specs of the speakers themselves are 35-3000hz for the woofers, and 1600-25000hz for the tweeters.


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## WhiteKnite

firebri said:


> Crossover point mid/hi...
> 
> Guess this could apply to any DSP. The default/recommended crossover point on the MS8 between mid/hi is 3500hz...My question is this....My Morel Hybrid 602's specify a crossover point of 2200hz with the passive crossovers included with the set. Should I match the active crossover point in the MS8 with this frequency? The specs of the speakers themselves are 35-3000hz for the woofers, and 1600-25000hz for the tweeters.


Depends partially on the slope. There's a good chance Morel knows what they are doing and a crossover at 2200hz will work well, but that is pretty close to the bottom of that tweeters range based on those specs. Usually passives are 12 or 18db slopes so the tweeter should handle it with low gains. I'd try at least 2500 and see how it sounds just to be on the safe side


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## firebri

I guess I should have mentioned that the MS8 allows you to choose your slopes as well, they recommend 24db slopes. You're right about the passives...12db slopes according to the spec sheet.


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## WhiteKnite

firebri said:


> I guess I should have mentioned that the MS8 allows you to choose your slopes as well, they recommend 24db slopes. You're right about the passives...12db slopes according to the spec sheet.


Well if the passives cross at 2200 with 12db safely, a 24 db slope will give even more headroom. Any idea what the Fs is of that tweet?


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## firebri

1200 hz...if I'm looking at the right spec. Not really familiar with that measurement...


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## addie-boy

firebri said:


> Crossover point mid/hi...
> 
> Guess this could apply to any DSP. The default/recommended crossover point on the MS8 between mid/hi is 3500hz...My question is this....My Morel Hybrid 602's specify a crossover point of 2200hz with the passive crossovers included with the set. Should I match the active crossover point in the MS8 with this frequency? The specs of the speakers themselves are 35-3000hz for the woofers, and 1600-25000hz for the tweeters.


Been reading about this and on the application of Morel speakers specifically for the last 2 or 3 weeks and will be starting the install myself (with Morel Virtus though) this weekend.

The way I see it, Morel had the crossover at 2200 Hz so that the midbass would not go beyond its beaming frequency (perhaps around 2500 Hz). If your midbass is pointed towards you, I think you can play with higher crossover points to protect your tweeter and for higher power handling. If not, then you will be limited to the 2200-2500 window as you would risk dips near that range.


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## firebri

Played with some settings this afternoon, and may have it set pretty damn close...yeah right, but it sound awesome right now. The last several days have seen a lot of familiar pieces of music pass through my system. That's ultimately how I've found myself fine-tuning it since I know how those pieces of music are "supposed" to sound. The details of my install can be found here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ll-gallery/172429-2015-kia-soul-sq-build.html

My final settings are 80hz cutoff for my sub...12db rolloff. 2200hz between my mids and tweets, 24db. I did a 8 notch(button push) bump in the Sub setting, and the Bass setting, which puts them up about half way further up the range. I also did a 3db bump from 80hz-200hz in the graphic EQ. I feel that's resulted in a more up front feel to my bass. It all seems well-balanced and happy for the time being. Once I've run a bunch more music through it, I'll let you know.

I was inspired to do the EQ bump after reading several posts that spoke of a hole in the midbass with a trunk mounted sub. There are a couple posts by an installer on here, sorry, I can't remember who, that stated he's never done an install with the MS8 without bumping up the midbass frequencies a bit. So at least I'm in good company.


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## firebri

OK...looks like I've officially got a problem. Perfect tuning in place, happily listening...then all of a sudden, muddied, overwhelming bass out of nowhere. Overpowers the rest of the music, which even seems like it's been decreased in volume. It continues for a non-specific length of time, and then seems to go back to normal. It happens with radio, CDs, and Pandora, so far. Haven't tried anything else. I've done multiple microprocessor resets and multiple re-tunes, and it keeps returning. Sometimes it happens after I've been listening for a while, sometimes not. My unit is out of it's warranty period, and I don't hold out much hope of help from JBL since they seem to have walked away from this product. I've only been using it for a couple weeks since I pulled it new out of the box. All my setup was done to the letter. 

Anyone else hear of anything like this? I was so excited to use this product, and very happy with my initial results....but now....

Someone help?


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## The Max

Same problem, different symptom. Reset processor and start again. 

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk


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## firebri

Tried that already. When I say perfect tune, I mean perfect. I was listening to my Daft Punk Pandora channel this afternoon, and it was friggin amazing. Flawless, clear, perfect tight bass, beautiful mids, crisp highs, and then, LOUD MUDDY DROWNING BASS. What the hell!


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## The Max

That's the MS8 demonstrating the same level of reliability mine had before I got rid of it. 

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk


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## firebri

It's the inconsistancy of the problem that leads me to believe it might be a defect. One thing I haven't tried is lowering the MS-8 volume for the sweeps. I did them at -30 db, which is what was recommended by the literature for a system with outboard amps. I'll try lowering it a bit and see if that gets rid of it. I would think that the problem would occur constantly if it was an overall volume problem though...That's just my uneducated guess. 

Does Andy still check in here from time to time?


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## The Max

It is the inconsistency of my problems which led me to believe it was not extensively tested during the design process.

Anyway, best of luck with getting it sorted out. 

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk


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## firebri

Did a ground up re-tune this a.m. Microprocessor, gains, channel assignments, calibration, etc.

One observation with my JL HD's, don't know what effect this may or may not have had. There are two input sensitivity settings on the HD's. Low/High. The Low setting specifies from 200mv-2V, and the High setting is 800mv-8V. The dials are not marked, and it does not specify clockwise or counterclockwise to obtain whichever number. My knobs were set at about 11:00 o'clock with my previous tune attempts. I understand Andy and others recommend 2V for the MS-8. When I dial the gains all the way clockwise on the low setting, I get a constant hiss out of my speakers. As I move the dial counterclockwise it goes away. I now have all the gains dialed all the way counterclockwise. I have no idea if this has resulted in a 200mv or a 2V setting. All I can say is the little bit of listening I've done after this mornings tune seems pristine. Time will tell. Still would like to know for sure what my gains are actually set on. Wish they could have marked them. I would have thought all the way clockwise would have been the 2V mark...but so much hiss!


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## The Max

Turning a pot clockwise on any amp typically increases the sensitivity, so fully clockwise in your case translates to 200mV whilst fully counterclockwise translates to the lower sensitivity of 2V, hence why you don't get the hiss. It's normal behaviour. 

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk


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## firebri

Let's hope I've made the MS-8 happy then. 

When it's not acting weird, it sounds beautiful.


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## firebri

WTF!

Got back in my car for a drive/listen and sounded fine for about 30 sec, now a new symptom...all the sound moves from the sub and the right side to the left side. 

Even when I turn off the processing, it still does it. This friggin thing is all over the place. Checked all connections, settings, and reset the microprocessor...no difference. I'm sure the next time I crank it up it'll do something totally different.

Dammit, I really want this thing to work. I like the setup, the design, the interface, the adjustment options, but ****...If the thing isn't going to perform. SO PISSED. This build was one of the most challenging things I've ever done, and now I can't even enjoy it.

I guess my next question is, does anyone have info on MS-8 repair options? Cause this thing obviously needs some attention. My build took so long and I purchased my components so gradually, that it is now out of the warranty period. I bought it from SE in 5/14, and it sat in the box until a couple months ago. Not even sure JBL will still touch this thing since they DC'd them. Can anyone help me? Don't really want to spend the money on a new DSP and have to change my setup/install.


----------



## baruch1

Give em a call, can't hurt. They will normally recommend an authorized repair shop near you. They swapped my ms8 out and it was a refurb pass the 90/days. Give it a shot.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## firebri

I'll give it a try. So discouraged.


----------



## firebri

Found a place recommended by the JBL phone tree. Confirmed they are an authorized repair shop. $50 deposit, $75/hr. Now I just have to prepare my sphincter for an uncomfortable penetration. This sucks.


----------



## baruch1

Did u try restoring the ms8 back tofactory defaults in system menu in addition to using the reset on amp itself? 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## The Max

I'd be putting the money towards another brand of DSP, personally. 

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk


----------



## firebri

baruch1 said:


> Did u try restoring the ms8 back tofactory defaults in system menu in addition to using the reset on amp itself?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


Yes. Will probably try again, and will try disconnecting power, and recalibrating. I want to exhaust every option before I deal with repair, or replace. Did I mention this sucks?


----------



## 14642

The Max said:


> It is the inconsistency of my problems which led me to believe it was not extensively tested during the design process.
> 
> Anyway, best of luck with getting it sorted out.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk


Well, I can say for sure that this is not the case. The unit went through a year and a half of regression testing. You could have a defective unit. 

What's described as temporarily overwhelming bass sounds like active noise cancellation in the factory system to me.


----------



## firebri

Hi Andy. My source unit is a Kenwood 997 with all processing bypassed. When I first set things up I was euphoric...the sound was amazing. However, now it seems every time I turn on my system, it's doing something different. I reset everything this morning and attempted a retune, now my left speakers are super loud compared to the right. I just don't know what more I can do. The thought of spending more money for repairs isn't that appealing since there's no guarantee the parts are even still available for it. I just wish it worked. It seems that the loudness follows the output by the way. Found this when I tried reassigning channels.


----------



## The Max

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well, I can say for sure that this is not the case. The unit went through a year and a half of regression testing. You could have a defective unit.
> 
> What's described as temporarily overwhelming bass sounds like active noise cancellation in the factory system to me.


Forgive me for saying so then but I am skeptical. The symptoms firebri is describing is not all that different to what I had, with the exception being that my display unit would frequently lock up. Otherwise, attempting to adjust bass or treble controls would cause random significant changes to my overall sound and levels, generally around 9dB louder and severely distorted. This kind of behaviour suggests to me it's more likely to be firmware rather than hardware, given the consistency in which the symptoms could be replicated. If they were random, different story then.

I would've thought JBL support would offer me a copy of the firmware to flash the unit with, in the event the quality control problems stemmed from production rather than design. Aside from the few and far between responses, not one offered to fulfil my request for the firmware. It's not like removing and replacing the unit in any installation is as easy as working with rack mounted hardware in an equipment room. The lack of reasonable official support puts your regression testing to waste, unfortunately. We all have a lot to be grateful for your presence here because this is better than the official support by a mile.

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk


----------



## firebri

Ok. Disconnected all positives from my battery. Gave it a couple minutes...resetup my Kenwood and MS-8. Calibrated and performing flawlessly. Hopefully this is the last you'll hear from me on this subject.


----------



## brumledb

Has anyone used the center channel without rears? I have read where Andy suggested using rears if you did use the center but didn't give any reasons why. I am not after surround sound really. I just want an equally good front stage for driver and passenger without having to use the compromise tune.
If you use a center do you have to use Logic7? Is the Logic7 what "steers" the center info to the center? What happens to the center if you disable Logic7?


----------



## firebri

That didn't last long. Sound was perfect. Listened to some bass-heavy Kaskade off Pandora, perfect, Daft Punk, perfect, some more Kaskade, and then, heavy, booming, overpowering bass, in the middle of the song. Appeared to go away after a few minutes. Switched to Boston CD. Made it through three songs, perfect, and then half way through Cool the Engines...BOOM, BOOM, BOOM. Had to grab the volume knob before my eyes exploded.

Kenwood still bypassed, MS-8 calibrated at -30db, then bumped up to -5db so I could use the Kenwood volume. Sub and bass settings on MS-8 bumped up a bit, and a 4db bump from 80-200hz on the graphic eq. Sound was perfect before the anomaly.

Any more suggestions before I subject myself to rape-by-repair-shop? Andy?

I just can't jump to a new unit yet. The price for what I would want is north of $600 and I just can't justify that if there's a possibility of getting this thing fixed. It sounds so good when its working! I will talk to the technician before I spend any money though. I want to see what kind of experience they have with the MS-8, and if they think it's serviceable.


----------



## firebri

Just went out and cranked up the system to see if anything changed. BOOMING bass still there, and now the screen for the MS-8 just displays "Please wait..."

:cwm23::cwm23::cwm23::cwm23::cwm23:


----------



## firebri

"Please wait..."


----------



## The Max

I'd say there's nothing more to tell in your saga then. 

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk


----------



## firebri

Yeah...disappointed to say the least. Grateful to Andy for his product, knowledge, and support...but I do feel like JBL dropped the ball. Found a good price on a RF 360.3...probably gonna pull the trigger. I just want my music back.


----------



## drop1

firebri said:


> That didn't last long. Sound was perfect. Listened to some bass-heavy Kaskade off Pandora, perfect, Daft Punk, perfect, some more Kaskade, and then, heavy, booming, overpowering bass, in the middle of the song. Appeared to go away after a few minutes. Switched to Boston CD. Made it through three songs, perfect, and then half way through Cool the Engines...BOOM, BOOM, BOOM. Had to grab the volume knob before my eyes exploded.
> 
> Kenwood still bypassed, MS-8 calibrated at -30db, then bumped up to -5db so I could use the Kenwood volume. Sub and bass settings on MS-8 bumped up a bit, and a 4db bump from 80-200hz on the graphic eq. Sound was perfect before the anomaly.
> 
> Any more suggestions before I subject myself to rape-by-repair-shop? Andy?
> 
> I just can't jump to a new unit yet. The price for what I would want is north of $600 and I just can't justify that if there's a possibility of getting this thing fixed. It sounds so good when its working! I will talk to the technician before I spend any money though. I want to see what kind of experience they have with the MS-8, and if they think it's serviceable.


I would by pass it. Send it for repair. Tune the best you can. Start saving . When it returns sell it, apply your saving and by a helix. Yup, exactly what I'd do.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

I haven't seen to many bad reviews on the helix. The 6 channel amp+dsp is a beast! I'd love to have one of those


----------



## The Max

drop1 said:


> I would by pass it. Send it for repair. Tune the best you can. Start saving . When it returns sell it, apply your saving and by a helix. Yup, exactly what I'd do.


Most definitely (except for the Helix thing, not that there's anything wrong with the Helix DSPs).

I have to admire Firebri for his persistence. I only persisted with mine for around four hours of constantly resetting, recalibrating, re-friggin'-re, before deciding it was coming out and getting replaced by something else.


----------



## drop1

The Max said:


> Most definitely (except for the Helix thing, not that there's anything wrong with the Helix DSPs).
> 
> I have to admire Firebri for his persistence. I only persisted with mine for around four hours of constantly resetting, recalibrating, re-friggin'-re, before deciding it was coming out and getting replaced by something else.


It's funny that sometimes I'm like you and sometimes if I really like something I'll learn all its quirks and work with it for years. It was like that with these focal comps I have. I kept pulling them out. Then I'd think up something else to try to help them and reinstall them. They turned out to be very good but it took work.


----------



## tbomb

firebri said:


> Yeah...disappointed to say the least. Grateful to Andy for his product, knowledge, and support...but I do feel like JBL dropped the ball. Found a good price on a RF 360.3...probably gonna pull the trigger. I just want my music back.


Have you tried using a different source. Try using Pandora (since this seems to be your preferred source)on your phone connected directly to the MS8. Maybe there is an issue with your Kenwood. Just sees like you have done everything except blame something ither than the MS8. Not saying it ISNT the problem, but at least you'll know its not the HU. Sounds like it is having a voltage spike. Or your sub amp, or any other piece of equipment in the chain.


----------



## addie-boy

quick question guys:

i run a morel virtus 3-way, 
ch1 & 2 to amp to passive crossover to midrange and tweet
ch3 & 4 to amp to midbass
ch5 to amp to subwoofer

amp is pg ti21600.5

gain at around 2pm (8v to 200mv sensitivity)
calibration volume, tried from -40 to -15 (there's already noise at -10 to 0)

not much treble, high frequencies are muted. 
if processing is deactivated, high frequencies reappear, and which i actually preferred (like those nice cymbals clangggg)

what did i do wrong?


----------



## The Max

tbomb said:


> Maybe there is an issue with your Kenwood.


...that's causing his display/controller to lock up the way it has?

The Kenwood is an analogue audio source. It outputs analogue line level audio into his MS8. It is electronically impossible for a reasonably designed DSP to lose its functionality because of analogue signals being received at the inputs. Even a short circuit at the inputs of the MS8 should simply result in muted audio at worst.



> Just sees like you have done everything except blame something ither than the MS8.


He's right to do so. What you're suggesting just can't possibly happen.



> Sounds like it is having a voltage spike. Or your sub amp, or any other piece of equipment in the chain.


If this issue was a one-off with the random functionality, lockups, etc, I'd say you're right - dirty power could well be the cause. Given all that has been reported in here before as well as my experiences, it's definitely the MS8 that's at fault here.


----------



## The Max

addie-boy said:


> not much treble, high frequencies are muted.
> if processing is deactivated, high frequencies reappear, and which i actually preferred (like those nice cymbals clangggg)
> 
> what did i do wrong?


Depends. Are you one of those guys I call "tweeter beaters"? 

Seriously though, check the headset mics that you used with the MS8. Was it plugged in all the way? Basic stuff. If all was well at the time, then see if you can borrow another headset in the event the mics might be faulty or something. If the results are still the same with the other headset, then whatever the mics are hearing, you're not and that's why you want more treble than the system thinks you do.

Whereas I was the opposite when I tried tuning my MS8 while I had it. There was too much for my liking so I attempted to reduce the top end instead. What's scientifically correct doesn't necessarily align with our perception. Everyone's ears (and interpretation by our brains) are wonderfully unique, at varying degrees.

One thing I neglected to consider ... are you sure your drivers are all in phase with each other (i.e. you don't have one or more drivers where you've got them wired with the wrong polarity)? I know you said the top end is restored when you bypass the processing but it's not entirely impossible.


----------



## WhiteKnite

Hoping my MS8 doesn't have any of those problems. It will be next to impossible to get repairs where I live.

Anyway I will be doing a logic 7 build for the first time in a couple weeks. Anyone have any input on this?

I am planning to use matching 2 way channels for right-center-left in my front stage with a MS-8. It will be a 5.1 channel system so I am one output short on the MS8 with the rear coaxials and sub included. I am not sure which crossover configuration option would be best.

My amps are a PPI P900.4 (145w x 4) and a JBL GTO-3EZ (50w x 2/ 150w bridged) and all 3 front tweeters are NVX XSPTW. I haven't decided on mids yet but they will be 5 or 5.5 raw drivers from Madisound. I might use 6.5's in the doors and 5.5 center. Currently leaning toward Satori or SB MFC's.

Here are my options:

1. Full active front stage using the P900.4 crossovers for the left and right channels. Center handled by the MS-8 but only feeding 50w each to the tweeter and mid. My concern is the mid won't get enough power.

2. Full active front stage using the P900.4 crossovers for the left and right channels bridge the GTO-3EZ feeding 150w to the mid and power the tweeter off the MS8's 18w. My concern is the tweeter won't have enough overhead and will clip the MS8 internal amp.

3. Let the MS-8 handle the left and right and bridge the GTO-3EZ to a passive crossover with 150w. This was my original plan since then all 3 front channels get a similar amount of power. My concerns are sound degradation and power robbing from the passive, tweeter attenuation, cost, and inflexibility.

4 Add a miniDSP to use as a crossover for the center. Basically the same as option one but more expensive. May introduce lag into the center channel. 

5. Something I haven't thought of yet and solves all of the issues.

Briefly I thought I could use the P900.4 crossover for the center, power the tweets off the GTO-3EZ's 50x2 and the L/R mids off the remaining 2 channels of the P900.4 until I realized one of my mids would then be crossed over as a tweeter... 

I have no experience building passive crossovers but I am decently handy with a soldering iron and it could be fun to design a crossover. However, I'd much rather go fully active due to flexibility.


----------



## addie-boy

The Max said:


> Depends. Are you one of those guys I call "tweeter beaters"?
> 
> Seriously though, check the headset mics that you used with the MS8. Was it plugged in all the way? Basic stuff. If all was well at the time, then see if you can borrow another headset in the event the mics might be faulty or something. If the results are still the same with the other headset, then whatever the mics are hearing, you're not and that's why you want more treble than the system thinks you do.
> 
> Whereas I was the opposite when I tried tuning my MS8 while I had it. There was too much for my liking so I attempted to reduce the top end instead. What's scientifically correct doesn't necessarily align with our perception. Everyone's ears (and interpretation by our brains) are wonderfully unique, at varying degrees.
> 
> One thing I neglected to consider ... are you sure your drivers are all in phase with each other (i.e. you don't have one or more drivers where you've got them wired with the wrong polarity)? I know you said the top end is restored when you bypass the processing but it's not entirely impossible.


check! will open the doors again tonight and re-check the phasing. i actually prefer the laid back type that the morels are known for but just right now, there's no "sparkle". sounds like am radio.


----------



## drop1

I800C0LLECT said:


> I haven't seen to many bad reviews on the helix. The 6 channel amp+dsp is a beast! I'd love to have one of those


I came close. Reeaaalllyyy close. Like finger on the trigger, mouse on the button close. It the end I opted for flexibility and a little assurance that if something went bad in either the dsp or amp I was tied down to having to replace the whole deal. And now it's gonna eat me alive for the rest of my life wondering what it would have sounded like. Had it had a single pair of bridgable channels I'd own one right now.


----------



## Elgrosso

firebri said:


> Yeah...disappointed to say the least. Grateful to Andy for his product, knowledge, and support...but I do feel like JBL dropped the ball. Found a good price on a RF 360.3...probably gonna pull the trigger. I just want my music back.


Sorry for your experience, must be frustrating.
Just wanted to say, I have now 3 of them, 1 bought new and 2 used, all fine.
A 4th is not working, but it's a proto.
And another one should arrive soon, but I'm really waiting for the Audiofrog...


----------



## tbomb

The Max said:


> ...that's causing his display/controller to lock up the way it has?
> 
> The Kenwood is an analogue audio source. It outputs analogue line level audio into his MS8. It is electronically impossible for a reasonably designed DSP to lose its functionality because of analogue signals being received at the inputs. Even a short circuit at the inputs of the MS8 should simply result in muted audio at worst.
> 
> 
> 
> He's right to do so. What you're suggesting just can't possibly happen.
> 
> 
> 
> If this issue was a one-off with the random functionality, lockups, etc, I'd say you're right - dirty power could well be the cause. Given all that has been reported in here before as well as my experiences, it's definitely the MS8 that's at fault here.



Its clear you dont like the Ms8. Im not talking to you Im talking to him. I am not referring to anything with the display locking up. I'm referring to the intermittent bass. That could easily be something else.

I have had multiple MS8 setups and dealt with multiple units and had nothing but positive experiences. That doesnt determine the quality of his unit. If his unit is faulty, so be it. I am just trying to help him be sure that is, in fact, the MS8 and not one of the other prices in the signal chain. Not sure why so much hostility to me


----------



## The Max

tbomb said:


> Its clear you dont like the Ms8. Im not talking to you Im talking to him. I am not referring to anything with the display locking up. I'm referring to the intermittent bass. That could easily be something else.


But in analysing the problem, you need to look at the whole picture. It's not about what I like. It's about what I know and can impart to help with the diagnosis. 



> I am just trying to help him be sure that is, in fact, the MS8 and not one of the other prices in the signal chain. Not sure why so much hostility to me


I assure you, there's absolutely no hostility in what I said. I've just made it clear why your suggestions aren't possible. If you find that hostile, then I've been misunderstood. 


Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Firebri.... Have you unplugged the headphones after calibration? I thought Andy said sometimes they can do something weird and cause some really odd behavior. Just a thought


----------



## firebri

Yes. Unhooked, rehooked, rebooted, reset, recalibrated, cut the power, restored the power, checked my Kenwood DSP bypass, checked all my RCA's, etc. Like I said, it sounded like perfection, until....

Going the 360.3 route, eventually will get the MS-8 looked at and hopefully fixed, then I'll see what I can get for it.


----------



## StabMe

Hey guys!

I've read a lot on topic but this thread is so huge, it is impossible to find the question i am looking the answer for here.

So, here is my simple question:
- _Is it possible to have 2 presets stored: one with subwoofer active and crossed with midbass drivers at about 80Hz and the other preset with subwoofer turned off and midbasses playing from about 40-50Hz?_

I have Peerless SLS 8" installed in my doors and sometimes i like to listen to the music with no subwoofer. I can switch presets with Audison BitOne, but is is possible with MS-8?


----------



## 14642

This sounds like a firmware issue. There are two pieces of firmware, though. There's the DSP firmware and the display firmware. To diagnose which is screwed up, once you get it working, disconnect the display and see if you have the intermittent bass problem. If not, then the problem is the display--it sends all the commands to the DSP.


----------



## StabMe

Hey Andy!

Thanks for your swift reply and for staying on this thread for so long while providing excellent support.

What i have found is that the Display unfreezes when i move and rotate the cable connector on the DSP side. Sometimes the display switches from "Please wait" to a JBL logo and freezes there, but sometimes actually proceeds to the main menu. Restart of the system (i.e. ignition off/on) makes it necessary to screw around with the cable again.

Seems more like an electrical problem with the slot. I checked the cable with multimeter and it is perfectly fine. 

The unit is brand new and was installed the day before yesterday. It is unlikely that the slot was beaten to death by repetitive stress, which makes the connection bad. Maybe, it is bad from the beginning? I don't know. 

Should i try to go the firmware route?


----------



## firebri

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> This sounds like a firmware issue. There are two pieces of firmware, though. There's the DSP firmware and the display firmware. To diagnose which is screwed up, once you get it working, disconnect the display and see if you have the intermittent bass problem. If not, then the problem is the display--it sends all the commands to the DSP.


Will give it a try, thanks!


----------



## StabMe

Hm. My post about the display freezing with "please wait" message got lost somehow. I thought Andy's reply about the firmware issues were directed to me, but they weren't since there were no original message to reply to.

Anyway, what's your general recommendation when one faces the problem of a display staying with "please wait" message? I double and triple checked the connection. When i slightly move the connector on the DSP side, the annoying "Please wait" changes to a JBL logo and sometimes proceeds to main menu.


----------



## crazhorse

Wasn't there a tip somewhere about loosening the screws on the display and it helping for someone having a problem with that?


----------



## Lanson

crazhorse said:


> Wasn't there a tip somewhere about loosening the screws on the display and it helping for someone having a problem with that?


I remember that. The PCB was being pinched.


----------



## yenny

I managed to short my MS8 and damaged the processor (C8051F347). No luck going through JBL for support/repair so I went ahead and replaced it. It's a long shot but does anyone have the stock firmware that I can flash via C2?


----------



## airsky98

Hi guys, i'm new to this forum

i'm on golf gti now with 6.5" morel maximo 2 way components speakers (with amp) + a rear subwoofer. 

Recently, i'm thinking to replace my rear stock speakers with another pair of morel maximo since it have been serving me well for the past few years. 

Before i do that, i would like to find out about MS8 before doing the "revamp" for my audio system. From what i understand, it does some auto calibration. 

Ideally, i hope to have the following connectivity :
Headunit -- 4 chan line lvl -- JBL MS8 -- 4 channels -- AMP -- 4 doors speakers (FR/FL/RL/RR) 
Honestly, i hope to remove the sub as it is taking up some spaces. 

My question will this setup works as optimum setup since MS8 is unable to control the delay output to tweeter, mid etc. I'm pretty sure it does some time alignment stuff right?

For most optimum setup, should i just stick to 2 way speakers in front (or even upgrade to 3 way speakers) and disconnect the stock rear speakers ? or it is perfectly alright to use 4 channels to all the 4 doors?

Let's say i'm able to put in a centre speaker, do I need to have a input for it or JBL MS8 will do the magic for me to 'mix' a centre output for me?


----------



## addie-boy

airsky98 said:


> Hi guys, i'm new to this forum
> 
> i'm on golf gti now with 6.5" morel maximo 2 way components speakers (with amp) + a rear subwoofer.
> 
> Recently, i'm thinking to replace my rear stock speakers with another pair of morel maximo since it have been serving me well for the past few years.
> 
> Before i do that, i would like to find out about MS8 before doing the "revamp" for my audio system. From what i understand, it does some auto calibration.
> 
> Ideally, i hope to have the following connectivity :
> Headunit -- 4 chan line lvl -- JBL MS8 -- 4 channels -- AMP -- 4 doors speakers (FR/FL/RL/RR)
> Honestly, i hope to remove the sub as it is taking up some spaces.
> 
> My question will this setup works as optimum setup since MS8 is unable to control the delay output to tweeter, mid etc. I'm pretty sure it does some time alignment stuff right?
> 
> For most optimum setup, should i just stick to 2 way speakers in front (or even upgrade to 3 way speakers) and disconnect the stock rear speakers ? or it is perfectly alright to use 4 channels to all the 4 doors?
> 
> Let's say i'm able to put in a centre speaker, do I need to have a input for it or JBL MS8 will do the magic for me to 'mix' a centre output for me?


Do you intend to run passive? Either way, I believe yes.
1. If the 4 chan line lvl is a line output converter, you can eliminate this as ms8 can accept speaker level inputs. Use only the front LR inputs.

2. You can configure the 2 maximos for front and the 2 maximos for side or rear. JBL suggests it as "side" instead of "rear".

3. MS8 produces the center channel from the 2 inputs.

Your questions are in this FAQ thread: 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq.html


----------



## airsky98

thanks, i'm reading through the FAQ. 

my 3rd party headunit comes with line level output for up to 4 channel + 1 sub

so i need to connect all of them into MS8 or just front left and front right and choose logic 7?

for center channel, any recommended speakers? it can be a simple tweeter right? 

my centre dash doesn't seems to have too much space for big speakers.

i have no preference for active or passive setup at the moment. If there's limitation to come out with a perfect tune due to passive setup, then i will go for active setup in front. 

Need the gurus here to advise me accordingly.


----------



## addie-boy

You only have to use the front left and right outs of your HU. For center, its the biggest that you can, ideally, the size that can play midbass. Though i guess 3 or 4 is good enough.


----------



## 14642

StabMe said:


> Hey Andy!
> 
> Thanks for your swift reply and for staying on this thread for so long while providing excellent support.
> 
> What i have found is that the Display unfreezes when i move and rotate the cable connector on the DSP side. Sometimes the display switches from "Please wait" to a JBL logo and freezes there, but sometimes actually proceeds to the main menu. Restart of the system (i.e. ignition off/on) makes it necessary to screw around with the cable again.
> 
> Seems more like an electrical problem with the slot. I checked the cable with multimeter and it is perfectly fine.
> 
> The unit is brand new and was installed the day before yesterday. It is unlikely that the slot was beaten to death by repetitive stress, which makes the connection bad. Maybe, it is bad from the beginning? I don't know.
> 
> Should i try to go the firmware route?


Make sure it's plugged all the way in. It sort of "clicks" twice.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Center at the very least should play clean at volume from 200Hz on up.


----------



## StabMe

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Make sure it's plugged all the way in. It sort of "clicks" twice.


Oh, i double checked that. It's plugged in all the way possible.

I am contemplating the idea of removing the cover from the unit and soldering the wire directly on to the board. Void warranty, yes, but at least i am sure i won't see "Please wait" anymore. 



> Wasn't there a tip somewhere about loosening the screws on the display and it helping for someone having a problem with that?


Though i believe i have a problem with the connection on the DSP side, should i still try to loosen the screws on display?


----------



## 1lowlife

StabMe said:


> Though i believe i have a problem with the connection on the DSP side, should i still try to loosen the screws on display?


My first MS8 had that issue.
Installed it and the display wouldn't boot up.
Loosened the screws a bit and it came on..


----------



## addie-boy

Is there a "backdoor" way not to avail of the auto EQ of the ms8 on calibration? I love the time alignment but I seem to be lost on the auto EQ. My perception is that the sound lacks the cymbals as compared to say, when I defeat the processing. I have checked the connections and all components are in phase.

I will just be calibrating manually by pink noise + RTA and finished by the ear flat method.


----------



## StabMe

After a long struggle with a diffuse central image, i accidentally discovered, that my headunit provides an imbalanced output. A little bit more volume on the right side than on the left. This i believe makes the image to shift to the louder side. It's an aftermarket device and i connect it to the DSP by two RCA cables. 

I can use my HU's balance control and try to centre it, but i don't think it provides enough precision.

*Is it possible to use MS-8's input setup in order to level match right and left channel, although i only use Input 1 and 2 at line level?* 

This seems like the easiest solution - just insert the CD, run a setup process and voila - done.


----------



## The Max

addie-boy said:


> Is there a "backdoor" way not to avail of the auto EQ of the ms8 on calibration?


I'm afraid not. If you want complete control over your sound, you'll need to look at another DSP. It's the one thing that the MS-8 could've included to make it one of the most flexible DSP units on the planet but didn't.


----------



## StabMe

*Here is how i fixed my "Please wait" problem.*

It turned out, that the problem was with the connection socket. Here is a pic of the broken socket:










A pic of new "socket" soldered:










And how it looks in a sealed box:


----------



## 14642

StabMe said:


> After a long struggle with a diffuse central image, i accidentally discovered, that my headunit provides an imbalanced output. A little bit more volume on the right side than on the left. This i believe makes the image to shift to the louder side. It's an aftermarket device and i connect it to the DSP by two RCA cables.
> 
> I can use my HU's balance control and try to centre it, but i don't think it provides enough precision.
> 
> *Is it possible to use MS-8's input setup in order to level match right and left channel, although i only use Input 1 and 2 at line level?*
> 
> This seems like the easiest solution - just insert the CD, run a setup process and voila - done.


Yes.


----------



## 14642

The Max said:


> I'm afraid not. If you want complete control over your sound, you'll need to look at another DSP. It's the one thing that the MS-8 could've included to make it one of the most flexible DSP units on the planet but didn't.


Use the 31-band EQ to make those adjustments.


----------



## SQLnovice

Andy W, this is off the topic of this thread. Those guys at monster cave are doing a great job with the audio frog line. Congrats.


----------



## The Max

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Use the 31-band EQ to make those adjustments.


I should rephrase to "unless it works for you", because every time I tried, it would lock up on me. Sorry, I stand corrected. 

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk


----------



## Lanson

Well done, sir! 



StabMe said:


> *Here is how i fixed my "Please wait" problem.*
> 
> It turned out, that the problem was with the connection socket. Here is a pic of the broken socket:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A pic of new "socket" soldered:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And how it looks in a sealed box:


----------



## StabMe

So i've got my left/right imbalances fixed. On top of differences in levels, i had them coming into MS-8 a bit off phase (don't ask my how it happened), which was the biggest factor in a muddy staging. Now that everything is fixed, *i can honestly say that i've never had a car or heard a car that sounded this good.*

Thank you Andy for your support and all the people who stay on this thread, spend their time sharing useful information on this topic.


----------



## naiku

I created a separate thread for this but got no reply, figured I would try in here... I can only run a 2" center speaker and suspect that I have blown what I had in there (Scan 5f). While I debate what to do I figured I would try running as a 2 channel set up, with no rear speakers my stage/image are virtually non existent with all sound coming clearly from my drivers side door. 

If I put the rears back in the mix, then both stage and image are back and while the center is not as good as with a dedicated center, it's good enough that with just me in the car I may not bother with one again. But, I don't get how the rear speakers are having that much of an effect. 

Yes, Logic 7 is off when running in either 2 channel or with rears. Processing set to drivers seat. 2 way active with crossovers at

70Hz @ 18db - Front / Sub
2800Hz @ 24db - Mid / Tweet

When I put the rears in the mix I typically have them playing 200Hz and up @ 24db. I had debated trying to use the spare amp channels I have to either bridge my front mids or possibly go 3 way, but if I need to keep the rears in the mix that plan is somewhat out the window. When in the drivers seat I do have the seat fairly far back, coupled with the rear speakers being at the front/bottom of the rear door cards they are fairly close to the back of the drivers seat. Not sure if that is doing anything though? 

Any ideas? Thanks.


----------



## bigjeep127

I wanted to share an update on my MS-8 journey. Sorry but I don't have time to read back through this thread and see if it's been discussed, regardless I think this could potentially help someone being posted again. I've had issues with my MS-8 resetting constantly with the display plugged in. I had a recently purchased new unit from Amazon. With the display plugged in, it would reset, with it unplugged it was fine. 

I returned it for another new unit from Amazon and the issue was the same. Honestly, I did not return the display wire to Amazon because it was already installed in my car, so with the second unit I had the same issue. In fact, the new unit had other display issues, it was unresponsive at times. I found the solution here was to loosen the display screws and that worked, but I still had the resetting issue. I contacted JBL and they kindly and quickly sent me a new display. The new display worked fine but the MS-8 still randomly reset when plugged in. I broke down and re-did my wiring and tried out the new display cable and voila! I've been using it for about 10 days with zero issues, never even made it a day with the old cable. So if you're having reset issues try a new display cable if you can!

I hope this fixed the problem because I'm very happy with the MS-8 results. After a few choice words and an order placed for a couple of MiniDSP's, I'm glad I stuck with the MS-8. It's a shame they're so buggy, come on JBL, give us a new version!

Oh, and I did get the dreaded "jet engine" noise after one calibration, I probably unplugged the mic at the wrong time. Wow that was scary, I hope it doesn't happen again. Luckily I killed the car before it fried my left tweeter. I'll be installing a kill switch asap.


----------



## SQLnovice

bigjeep127 said:


> I wanted to share an update on my MS-8 journey. Sorry but I don't have time to read back through this thread and see if it's been discussed, regardless I think this could potentially help someone being posted again. I've had issues with my MS-8 resetting constantly with the display plugged in. I had a recently purchased new unit from Amazon. With the display plugged in, it would reset, with it unplugged it was fine.
> 
> I returned it for another new unit from Amazon and the issue was the same. Honestly, I did not return the display wire to Amazon because it was already installed in my car, so with the second unit I had the same issue. In fact, the new unit had other display issues, it was unresponsive at times. I found the solution here was to loosen the display screws and that worked, but I still had the resetting issue. I contacted JBL and they kindly and quickly sent me a new display. The new display worked fine but the MS-8 still randomly reset when plugged in. I broke down and re-did my wiring and tried out the new display cable and voila! I've been using it for about 10 days with zero issues, never even made it a day with the old cable. So if you're having reset issues try a new display cable if you can!
> 
> I hope this fixed the problem because I'm very happy with the MS-8 results. After a few choice words and an order placed for a couple of MiniDSP's, I'm glad I stuck with the MS-8. It's a shame they're so buggy, come on JBL, give us a new version!
> 
> Oh, and I did get the dreaded "jet engine" noise after one calibration, I probably unplugged the mic at the wrong time. Wow that was scary, I hope it doesn't happen again. Luckily I killed the car before it fried my left tweeter. I'll be installing a kill switch asap.


Glad that you got it resolved. I had my MS-8 in my previous car for over a year with zero problems. I'll be installing it in my current car and hoping it's trouble free as well.


----------



## bigjeep127

Well scratch that. It just reset on me this morning. Screw this thing.


----------



## WhiteKnite

I'm getting pretty fed up with mine too. The staging with logic 7 is amazing, but something in my car or system is causing the EQ to malfunction. I have been chasing my tail on this for 2 weeks and no matter what I have WAY too much bass (currently +20-25 db or more with a peak over 30db between 40-50hz even with the sub level matched at almost min gain) and huge peaks at the lower vocal range that makes it sound like the singer has their hand over their mouth on most tracks, sounds like they are singing into a coffee can on others, and the onboard EQ kills the adjacent frequencies and ruins the sound if I EQ it out.. I have to drop 300-800hz by 10db to make vocals sound right but it ruins the sound of all other instruments. I've checked the speakers with an RTA and the response is relatively flat until I add the MS8 processing. It sounds like when I was first learning to tune and tried to add massive boost to dips caused by reflections because I didn't know any better. 

I am running Satori 6's in the doors and Satori 5 for center. Everything has been sealed and deadened. NVX XSPTW's for tweets. JBL P662's rear and a Morel Ultimo SC12 sub in a 1.4' box. Everything has been level matched +/- 2db using the hidden menu. 

My bass has gotten much better since I switched my connections from the OEM stereo to low level inputs. Before I had to set it up with the factory HU at full volume which caused the MS8 to try and compensate for the hard-coded bass rolloff, in turn boosting low volume bass to the point of clipping. I still have to EQ it quite a bit and turn down the sub in the menu, and I don't get as smooth of a response in the bass as I would if I had full control over a parametric EQ. In fact the MS8 EQ's processing produces MORE peaks and dips in the bass. This sub has a nearly flat response in this install, and the MS8 really shouldn't even be messing with it. This is unacceptable.

Because this thing is "automatic" I can't diagnose the source of the problems and none of my shots in the dark seem to help. I feel like I've tried everything. Really regretting not just getting something with more functions and tuning it myself. I would have had it dialed in by now with REW and a REAL DSP...


----------



## Lanson

I've found the MS-8 can be tricky when it is trying compensate for holes in response, or at least measured response. This is for both sides, the input feed and also the acoustic calibration process.


----------



## DDfusion

I had it boosting my sub and I figured out why. It was having a hard time hearing it. I calibrated with my subs gain up and dialed it back and level matched it after calibration.


----------



## WhiteKnite

DDfusion said:


> I had it boosting my sub and I figured out why. It was having a hard time hearing it. I calibrated with my subs gain up and dialed it back and level matched it after calibration.


I tried that and everything in between. I can make it sound 'right' by lowering the gain after or EQing but the massive boost the MS8 applies to the 40-50hz range causes the bass to be imperfect and lose detail even after correcting it. I didn't spend this much on a sub to have it ruined by my DSP  *The craziest thing is, it doesn't happen on the passenger side calibration*. I've tried moving the sub to the other side of my hatch but it doesn't help. Just had an idea. I wonder if I calibrate driver and passenger in opposite seats if it will still happen. I need to try calibrating with the polarity swapped on the sub too, I did try changing it and it didn't sound good but I never tried to recalibrate after. 

Made some progress on the vocals tonight by attenuating the center tweeter +6db on the passive crossover. It still isn't perfect but it is better. I miss my miniDSP :bigcry:

I'll have to try playing something through the aux input tomorrow to see if the source of the problem is in the input or output. I have to take out my seat to get to the AUX input or I would have tried that tonight.

I'm determined to make this thing work but I'm starting to wonder if I have a broken unit or if it just won't work in my car.


----------



## DDfusion

It's only going to boost if it finds it lacking. 
Did you try it with the sub gain maxed out?


----------



## 14642

WhiteKnite said:


> I tried that and everything in between. I can make it sound 'right' by lowering the gain after or EQing but the massive boost the MS8 applies to the 40-50hz range causes the bass to be imperfect and lose detail even after correcting it. I didn't spend this much on a sub to have it ruined by my DSP  *The craziest thing is, it doesn't happen on the passenger side calibration*. I've tried moving the sub to the other side of my hatch but it doesn't help. Just had an idea. I wonder if I calibrate driver and passenger in opposite seats if it will still happen. I need to try calibrating with the polarity swapped on the sub too, I did try changing it and it didn't sound good but I never tried to recalibrate after.
> 
> Made some progress on the vocals tonight by attenuating the center tweeter +6db on the passive crossover. It still isn't perfect but it is better. I miss my miniDSP :bigcry:
> 
> I'll have to try playing something through the aux input tomorrow to see if the source of the problem is in the input or output. I have to take out my seat to get to the AUX input or I would have tried that tonight.
> 
> I'm determined to make this thing work but I'm starting to wonder if I have a broken unit or if it just won't work in my car.


Yes, change the polarity of the sub and recalibrate. Also, MS-8 uses 50-80 Hz to set the level of the sub relative to the rest of the speakers. Check the response of the sub before you calibrate, if possible, to be sure that it isn't low there and high at lower frequencies.


----------



## WhiteKnite

DDfusion said:


> It's only going to boost if it finds it lacking.
> Did you try it with the sub gain maxed out?


Not maxed, that would be WAY too loud but I tried it at at least 30db over the fronts.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, change the polarity of the sub and recalibrate. Also, MS-8 uses 50-80 Hz to set the level of the sub relative to the rest of the speakers. Check the response of the sub before you calibrate, if possible, to be sure that it isn't low there and high at lower frequencies.


Thanks, Andy, now we are getting somewhere.

I tried changing the polarity and it just caused the sub to be localized. 

I checked the sub response again using the pink noise in the test menu. It has a natural 12db roll-off just after 60hz... which, now knowing what range the MS-8 is looking at explains a lot. I still don't understand why the passenger calibration doesn't get the huge boost since the sub measured the same in that side of the car. 

I tried a 62hz/24db crossover and it brought the bass much more in line with the other frequencies, and also seemed to help the vocals sound less tinny. I can listen to Spanish Harlem without cringing finally. It still has some peakiness to the bass but I feel much better about EQing -3 or -5 than needing -10 @40-50hz and 50% on the subwoofer level which is where I was at when I first calibrated. 

I'm still not totally satisfied with the sound of the vocals but that could be partly because I haven't adjusted to hearing a center channel so my attention is being drawn to those frequencies. Instrumental tracks sound phenomenal.


----------



## bigjeep127

WhiteKnite said:


> Not maxed, that would be WAY too loud but I tried it at at least 30db over the fronts.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, Andy, now we are getting somewhere.
> 
> I tried changing the polarity and it just caused the sub to be localized.
> 
> I checked the sub response again using the pink noise in the test menu. It has a natural 12db roll-off just after 60hz... which, now knowing what range the MS-8 is looking at explains a lot. I still don't understand why the passenger calibration doesn't get the huge boost since the sub measured the same in that side of the car.
> 
> I tried a 62hz/24db crossover and it brought the bass much more in line with the other frequencies, and also seemed to help the vocals sound less tinny. I can listen to Spanish Harlem without cringing finally. It still has some peakiness to the bass but I feel much better about EQing -3 or -5 than needing -10 @40-50hz and 50% on the subwoofer level which is where I was at when I first calibrated.
> 
> I'm still not totally satisfied with the sound of the vocals but that could be partly because I haven't adjusted to hearing a center channel so my attention is being drawn to those frequencies. Instrumental tracks sound phenomenal.


I hope you get it right, I'm at the point where I love the sound, but hate the unreliability of the MS-8. I'm going to try and live with it, I think having JBL send me a refurb would be a waste of time at this point, it seems like the majority of them have issues. I had two brand new units in a row with issues.

If you go back to MiniDSP let me know if you're interested in the 2 unused 2x4 balanced in a box units I've got sitting around the house.


----------



## DDfusion

Seeing all these negative post about reliability makes me feel extremely lucky since I got one of the last new units out there.


----------



## bigjeep127

DDfusion said:


> Seeing all these negative post about reliability makes me feel extremely lucky since I got one of the last new units out there.


I had 2 of the last new units, bought new off Amazon this year. I was wondering if maybe the newest batch had a production issue, but maybe this has gone on for years? If JBL would just fix these reliability issues and add a few tweaks based on the massive amount of user experience data they have here then they would have a real winner. As someone who doesn't have the time to learn how to tune, this thing is almost my only option. Maybe I should just learn how to tune, haha.

Mine has only reset itself once, so I'm still a little hopeful that it's not going to be much of an issue, we'll see.


----------



## DDfusion

I haven't had a single issue. It did take me a few trial and error calibrations to get it right but once I did, everything is perfect and a bit jaw dropping at times. 
It's better than I even got close to with my old bit 10 with a full year of messing with it. 

A real 3D stage.


----------



## Lanson

Same for me, I've installed a bunch of them and had no failures or odd behavior, other than the typical setup tweaking and messing around with variables. Sometimes I wish it did more of this or that though. Like when you turn processing off, and hear your music is more dynamic and up front, and then turn processing back on and things go more muted and controlled. Granted, that means the response is more on the target flat/sloping curve but it is weird how all this bass gets muted, and then the sub overcompensates. 

But its always been that way.


----------



## bigjeep127

fourthmeal said:


> Same for me, I've installed a bunch of them and had no failures or odd behavior, other than the typical setup tweaking and messing around with variables. Sometimes I wish it did more of this or that though. Like when you turn processing off, and hear your music is more dynamic and up front, and then turn processing back on and things go more muted and controlled. Granted, that means the response is more on the target flat/sloping curve but it is weird how all this bass gets muted, and then the sub overcompensates.
> 
> But its always been that way.


I noticed this last week, I wonder if anyone has had the same experience. When I'm in the driver's seat and I set the MS-8 on "passenger", the front stage sounds crappy but the sub sounds MUCH better, the impact is really noticed and I like it a lot. I have no idea why, but I'm going to experiment this weekend... the sub sweep happens during calibration after a little delay, so I think I may be able to move the mic over to the middle of the car or even the passenger side when I'm calibrating. It may just be due to my car/setup, anyone else noticed this?


----------



## Lanson

bigjeep127 said:


> I noticed this last week, I wonder if anyone has had the same experience. When I'm in the driver's seat and I set the MS-8 on "passenger", the front stage sounds crappy but the sub sounds MUCH better, the impact is really noticed and I like it a lot. I have no idea why, but I'm going to experiment this weekend... the sub sweep happens during calibration after a little delay, so I think I may be able to move the mic over to the middle of the car or even the passenger side when I'm calibrating. It may just be due to my car/setup, anyone else noticed this?


That behavior sounds like sub cancellation, or a mid could be out of phase.


----------



## WhiteKnite

After a bit more listening and measurement nothing I have done has really made much of a difference. The lower crossover did help to make the bass sound more up front though which improved the sound a bit. Still need to cut below 50hz by almost 10db and lower the sub level. Still need to cut the mids... 

I have the same issue with the passenger side blending the sub way better but generally sounding really bad otherwise. If you look a few posts up I mentioned that too. In fact that is one of my biggest gripes with this thing. One of the main reasons I got it was to switch from driver to passenger tunes easily but they are so far off from each other it isn't even worth it.


----------



## bigjeep127

You're right, sorry I missed that. Maybe try what I was suggesting. Calibrate normally but just move the mic to the opposite seat when the sub sweep is about to happen.

And I totally agree with what you said about instrumental tracks sounding phenomenal. I'm kinda let down by highly produced music (some of which I really enjoy). This thing has me listening to different kinds of music, maybe that's good, but I miss some stuff.


----------



## WhiteKnite

bigjeep127 said:


> You're right, sorry I missed that. Maybe try what I was suggesting. Calibrate normally but just move the mic to the opposite seat when the sub sweep is about to happen.
> 
> And I totally agree with what you said about instrumental tracks sounding phenomenal. I'm kinda let down by highly produced music (some of which I really enjoy). This thing has me listening to different kinds of music, maybe that's good, but I miss some stuff.


I wouldn't mind if it was just highly processed stuff that sounded bad. But some of my benchmark good recordings sound awful. I will try your idea with the mic but I worry that will be an inconsistent solution


----------



## Mark the Bold

Installed a MS-8 in a new Subaru Outback 2014 with the Harman Kardon system.

Got it working swell, but I thought one of you could help me regarding the echo on the bluetooth. It still gives me an echo even with all the processing off, which really threw me for a loop. 

I have installed Ms-8 in a few cars factory systems that have given me echoes, and whenever I turned off the processing the echo cancellation went away.

But for some reason I cannot get the echo to go away. Normally I would say thats life, but since this is a Harman Kardon factory system I would assume the JBL MS-8 would pair up hunky dorey.

Any advice? And super secret firmwares I need to get by giving Andy a special passcode?


----------



## DDfusion

The firmware is on the JBL website somewhere.


----------



## 14642

IF turning processing off doesn't improve it, the firmware update won't help.


----------



## percy072

DDfusion said:


> The firmware is on the JBL website somewhere.


Wonder if a firmware/software update might clean up alot of the background static/white noise issue's I've been dealing with?? 

Not a grounding issue...convinced it's generated by the processor itself. Anyone have any success with that??


----------



## DDfusion

percy072 said:


> Wonder if a firmware/software update might clean up alot of the background static/white noise issue's I've been dealing with??
> 
> Not a grounding issue...convinced it's generated by the processor itself. Anyone have any success with that??


You have my same car. I've been on the fusion forums. It's the head unit. Nothing we can do about it until we get a dash kit.


----------



## percy072

DDfusion said:


> You have my same car. I've been on the fusion forums. It's the head unit. Nothing we can do about it until we get a dash kit.


I wondered if it was the OEM H/U but the noise was still there even after I unplugged the speaker level input harness. The only time it went quiet was after I unplugged the RCA's from the MS-8 to my amps 

Ah well...take a little bad with alot of good


----------



## DDfusion

Everybody has it even using different DSPs and integration.


----------



## FordEscape

percy072 said:


> Wonder if a firmware/software update might clean up alot of ....


The ONLY thing the available 'update' does is help address phone echo by adding the 'processing off' toggle to a button on the controller so it is easy to access quickly. That's the only 'update' that's ever been offered for the MS-8, does nothing else, not needed if you don't have that specific problem, and as Andy mentioned above, if using the menu to toggle processing off doesn't solve your echo problem, neither will the update.

Just FYI.


----------



## DDfusion

FordEscape said:


> The ONLY thing the available 'update' does is help address phone echo by adding the 'processing off' toggle to a button on the controller so it is easy to access quickly. That's the only 'update' that's ever been offered for the MS-8, does nothing else, not needed if you don't have that specific problem, and as Andy mentioned above, if using the menu to toggle processing off doesn't solve your echo problem, neither will the update.
> 
> Just FYI.


Do you have low volume static with the touch screen?


----------



## FordEscape

DDfusion said:


> Do you have low volume static with the touch screen?


Nope. Nor is that a common complaint on the '13+ Escape forums I follow, once you weed-out the Sirius Satellite listeners.

And to be clear, I don't have the 'update', I just studied it 'in case' before I got my MS-8 when there were some rumors of problems with the SYNC & Bluetooth phone. Total non-issue, the phone works fine with MS-8 in all modes.


----------



## StabMe

Andy,

I am having a problem with too much bass. The sub region is just too loud. 


I've read that MS-8 uses 50-80Hz region to set the level of the sub and was wondering if i am one of those few who has a sub which is much louder in the 20-50Hz range. 

It is JL 12W6V2 ported in a 120 litre box (4,2 ft). I think it was tuned at 20Hz or something in that region.

Here is the unprocessed response of my sub:










Before calibrating the system, i used an RTA app on my smart phone and matched the levels of all the channels in this fashion:
Sub - 88-89Db
Midbass - 85-86db
Midrange/Tweeter - 82-84db

What do you think i should do now:
- Re-calibrate the whole system while adding some gain on the subwoofer amp?
- Use the graphic EQ and lower the 20-50hz region?
- Use the kaigoss mod (spell?)?

Please, advise.


----------



## FordEscape

*Frequency Ranges USed for Level Setting*

Andy has stated several times that the "Sub" configuration uses 50Hz to 80Hz output for Sub level setting purposes during Acoustic Calibration.

Has anyone noted posts listing the frequency range used for that purpose for other speakers / configurations to allow me to complete the following table ...


MS-8 ACOUSTIC LEVEL SETTING FREQUENCY RANGES

For Sub:
Sub 1 = 50Hz - 80Hz

For 3-way Front:
FL/FR Hi =
FL/FR Mid =
FL/FR Lo =

For 2-way Front:
FL/FR Hi =
FL/FR Lo =

For 1-way Center:
Ctr =

For Side with no Rear:
SL/SR =

Is the range used for Front Lo speaker level setting dependent on with/without a Sub configured?

Just curious, thanks in advance


----------



## Mark the Bold

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> IF turning processing off doesn't improve it, the firmware update won't help.




Thanks Andy. Figured that was the case. I assumed the headunit had some car / microphone specific echo cancellation hard-baked into the code.

If it wasn't such as massive PITA to swap out the headunit on this particular car, I'd do it. Like the other poster they don' even make a dash kit for the full JBL Harman Kardon premium.

Sure they make a dash kit for the double din headunit itself, but not for the massive lower physical button part of the console. Oh well,....

Guess I am stuck with my douchebag bluetooth earpiece from now on.


----------



## kaigoss69

If it were me I would try to:

- use (if possible) the amp's HP filter and set it for 50Hz 12dB/oct to knock-off the peak between 20 and 50Hz, then recalibrate

or

- increase the gain on the sub amp, and recalibrate.

or

- turn down the gain on the sub amp and then boost where needed 

or

- since it is always better to cut than boost try to knock down the response with the EQ alone

or

- reduce the "bass" and "sub" settings in MS-8

or a combination of the above.

How's your mid-bass?



StabMe said:


> Andy,
> 
> I am having a problem with too much bass. The sub region is just too loud.
> 
> 
> I've read that MS-8 uses 50-80Hz region to set the level of the sub and was wondering if i am one of those few who has a sub which is much louder in the 20-50Hz range.
> 
> It is JL 12W6V2 ported in a 120 litre box (4,2 ft). I think it was tuned at 20Hz or something in that region.
> 
> Here is the unprocessed response of my sub:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before calibrating the system, i used an RTA app on my smart phone and matched the levels of all the channels in this fashion:
> Sub - 88-89Db
> Midbass - 85-86db
> Midrange/Tweeter - 82-84db
> 
> What do you think i should do now:
> - Re-calibrate the whole system while adding some gain on the subwoofer amp?
> - Use the graphic EQ and lower the 20-50hz region?
> - Use the kaigoss mod (spell?)?
> 
> Please, advise.


----------



## StabMe

*kaigoss69,

*
Thanks for stopping by. I will try the recommendations above and report back tomorrow. It is 2:00 in the morning here in Moscow, though i am still going through the thread 

I didn't measure the combined respond yet, but to my ears the midbass is a bit lacking. I boosted the 80-300Hz region a few dBs and reduced the 20-50Hz range on the EQ and now it sounds a bit more palatable. But will report back with the response graph.


----------



## Sine Swept

Regarding the bluetooth echo issue. I am contemplating installing a hidden speaker in the dash and powering it from the decks rear channel (I am running fronts into MS8). My next thought is a relay to switch the MS8 on/ off. When the MS8 is in off state I then want another relay to open, switching voltage into my hidden speaker. 

Methinks if I do not process, I should have normal bluetooth at the hidden speaker.

??


----------



## t3sn4f2

Sine Swept said:


> Regarding the bluetooth echo issue. I am contemplating installing a hidden speaker in the dash and powering it from the decks rear channel (I am running fronts into MS8). My next thought is a relay to switch the MS8 on/ off. When the MS8 is in off state I then want another relay to open, switching voltage into my hidden speaker.
> 
> Methinks if I do not process, I should have normal bluetooth at the hidden speaker.
> 
> ??


A hidden speaker will work fine. 



trevordj said:


> Here is my solution to the bluetooth echo issue:
> 
> I ran an extra set of speaker wires to the stock amplifier. The MS-8 was hooked up to the rear outputs of the stock amp and the Vifa TC9FD-18-08 3-1/2" full range drivers were hooked directly to the front channels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seats removed
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
> and speaker wires ran
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Simple baffles were made out of wood, covered in carpet, and speakers screwed in place
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The speakers were attached under the front of the seat facing the front of the car using some L-brackets.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> The interior was cleaned and everything replaced. This solution works perfectly! No more bluetooth echo.
> 
> This represents 5 hours of work bringing the project total to 486 hours. Thanks for looking!


----------



## naiku

Apparently losing my center channel is causing me all kinds of headaches, I seem to get a ton of distortion on vocals (typically female, Portishead - Numb for example sounds horrendous). If I turn off processing the distortion goes away. 

I did some searching and found this information from Andy:



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> 1. If the midrange channels are identified as front high and the tweeter channels are labeled as front low. I know it sounds ridiculous, but I've done it.
> 
> 2. If the front is identified as 2-way when it's a component system that uses passive crossovers.
> 
> There is a third:
> 
> 3. If the MS-8 volume control is left at -20 for listening and the factory volume control is turned up so loud that either it clips or the input of MS-8 is clipped.
> 
> There is a fourth, but it's less common:
> 
> 4. If the midrange in the front is NOT capable of reaching the tweeter either because the mid is big and way off axis or because it's really a midbass. This may cause MS-8 to boost too much and with the MS-8 volume control near 0dB, there isn't enough digital signal left to accommodate the boost.
> 
> When you hear the distortion, please turn DOWN the factory volume control to see if it goes away. If it does, then see if you can get the level you require by turning MS-8's control up. If it doesn't go away, then turn MS-8's volume control down. If the distortion goes away, check the 31-band EQ to see if you've boosted in the midrange.


1. Speakers are correctly identified.
2. Definitely active.
3. I keep the MS8 volume at -5 (calibrate at -40 typically) and the distortion happens before I even get past half volume on my source.
4. 6.5" mid installed in the door, tweeter at the top front of the door. Crossed at various points from 2200 @ 24db up to about 2800 @ 24db, none seem to make much difference. 

I do typically only notice the distortion at higher volume levels, but not obnoxiously high. Any other suggestions? I may do a factory reset on the MS8 and then re-calibrate again, at least to rule some odd setting out. But, does anyone have anything else left to try?

Thanks.


----------



## Lanson

What's the center's cross point?



naiku said:


> Apparently losing my center channel is causing me all kinds of headaches, I seem to get a ton of distortion on vocals (typically female, Portishead - Numb for example sounds horrendous). If I turn off processing the distortion goes away.
> 
> I did some searching and found this information from Andy:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Speakers are correctly identified.
> 2. Definitely active.
> 3. I keep the MS8 volume at -5 (calibrate at -40 typically) and the distortion happens before I even get past half volume on my source.
> 4. 6.5" mid installed in the door, tweeter at the top front of the door. Crossed at various points from 2200 @ 24db up to about 2800 @ 24db, none seem to make much difference.
> 
> I do typically only notice the distortion at higher volume levels, but not obnoxiously high. Any other suggestions? I may do a factory reset on the MS8 and then re-calibrate again, at least to rule some odd setting out. But, does anyone have anything else left to try?
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## naiku

fourthmeal said:


> What's the center's cross point?


Ah, sorry might not have been clear enough. There is no longer a center. 


I did have one, but I suspect I blew it (could only fit a 2"). I figured since it's only me in the car 90% of the time I was not going to bother trying to replace it. Been nothing but headaches since. 

I usually end up with the stage pulled way to the left, pretty much locked to the drivers door, but now managed to get a semi decent stage / image (albeit slightly to the right of where I perceive the center should be) but getting distortion on vocals. 

One thing I am finding bugs me about the MS8 with troubleshooting is having to go through the entire process again. I wish I could just go in and directly modify say my mid/tweet crossover point. While it does not take all that long plugging in the microphone and doing sweeps etc. I wish I could just make those sort of tweaks on the fly if I needed to do so.


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## Lanson

The way I've learned to understand it, the crossover points you select are more like guidance for the MS-8 to follow, but it really just makes its own. And if you think about it, a cross point isn't really a cross point if you modify the EQ for that channel, etc. The real cross point changes with each little change you make to the output. So the points we pick are how the MS-8 gets its initial direction, and then when it calibrates, it uses biquad filtering to get as close to the Harman target "curve" as possible. 

I may be over-simplifying some parts of that, and then under-explaining in others, but I hope it makes sense. I've learned that prior to calibration, it is very helpful to do the white/pink (whatever they are) noise tests and measure, to see if you have a generally flat response to get started.



naiku said:


> Ah, sorry might not have been clear enough. There is no longer a center.
> 
> 
> I did have one, but I suspect I blew it (could only fit a 2"). I figured since it's only me in the car 90% of the time I was not going to bother trying to replace it. Been nothing but headaches since.
> 
> I usually end up with the stage pulled way to the left, pretty much locked to the drivers door, but now managed to get a semi decent stage / image (albeit slightly to the right of where I perceive the center should be) but getting distortion on vocals.
> 
> One thing I am finding bugs me about the MS8 with troubleshooting is having to go through the entire process again. I wish I could just go in and directly modify say my mid/tweet crossover point. While it does not take all that long plugging in the microphone and doing sweeps etc. I wish I could just make those sort of tweaks on the fly if I needed to do so.


----------



## naiku

Think I figured it out, I had a 0.5db increase on 3 or 4 of the frequencies around 100Hz. Removed that, then did a new calibration. So far so good, although I have not listened to much.


----------



## WhiteKnite

kaigoss69 said:


> If it were me I would try to:
> 
> - use (if possible) the amp's HP filter and set it for 50Hz 12dB/oct to knock-off the peak between 20 and 50Hz, then recalibrate
> 
> or
> 
> - increase the gain on the sub amp, and recalibrate.
> 
> or
> 
> - turn down the gain on the sub amp and then boost where needed
> 
> or
> 
> - since it is always better to cut than boost try to knock down the response with the EQ alone
> 
> or
> 
> - reduce the "bass" and "sub" settings in MS-8
> 
> or a combination of the above.
> 
> How's your mid-bass?


I had the same problem and had to settle for -10 on the EQ from 20-50hz and a couple notches over on the subwoofer setting. Not perfect but it is tolerable. Any of those solutions are a bit of a compromise. Aside from reducing subwoofer gain AFTER calibration (which killed some of the bass/midbass) nothing else worked. I tried calibrating with my sub set from -5db to +20-30db vs the other speakers and it all resulted in WAY too much bass.


----------



## Lanson

Not sure why this happens but I've also found myself with too much bass if I calibrate in the garage. If I calibrate outside on a very quiet day, it sounds better. <shrugs> Maybe the MS-8 picks up on some sort of reinforcement in sound from the garage's enclosed size/reverb, etc.


----------



## Buyakasha

Andy or anyone else in the know,
Is it possible to purchase a new pair of headphone mics for the MS-8? My car was broken into this morning and the thief stole my 4 channel zed amp and calibration mic for the ms-8. He left my heading, sub, and ms-8 though, what a nice guy.

Just got this MS-8 and it's pretty much useless without the mics so any help would be appreciated!


----------



## billw

Contact JBL. My headphones were misplaced and when I inquired about buying a new set, they were kind enough to send me a set for free. 

Sites-JB-US-Site


----------



## Buyakasha

Thanks Billw!


----------



## joaozelo

I would like your help please. When I brake the car my twitters turn off and return to work when I accelerate the car again. what it can be?


----------



## Beckerson1

joaozelo said:


> I would like your help please. When I brake the car my twitters turn off and return to work when I accelerate the car again. what it can be?


Loose connection. Check your connections and make sure to check any crimps you've may have done.


----------



## pennstatejoe21

*Bridge question*

I just have a question about bridging amp channels with the MS-8. First off is it possible and how do you do it? I have a 15 Tundra. Stock head unit MS-8 and a polk PA D5000.5. I am just using the front channels on the polk at the moment and would like to bridge it to get more power just not sure if its possible. Another thing is the sub. I was looking at the JL stealthbox but it runs on 4ohms with no way to wire it down to 2. My amp at 4ohms on the sub channel is only 200watt. Would it make sense to pick up a 4 channel 4ohm amp and bridge 2 channels to the stealthbox and use the others for the front? Would it even work with the MS-8? Any advice would help!! Thanks in advance!


----------



## thehatedguy

Say that one more time.


----------



## ssclassa60

In my brief experience with MS-8, you should not bridge.


----------



## Sine Swept

Bridge the external amp. The MS8 will supply the inputs for the amp.


----------



## pennstatejoe21

Sine Swept said:


> Bridge the external amp. The MS8 will supply the inputs for the amp.


How would I do this without confusing the signals from the MS-8? Bridged my amp pulls from RR+ RL- and FL- FR+. So do I need to assign outputs to the REAR input on the amp from the MS-8 and run another set of RCAs? Just not sure how its going to get signal from the rear channel.


----------



## billw

The front and rear labels on the amp don't matter in this situation. You won't be using rears on the ms8 either. From the looks of it, follow the instructions in the manual for 3 channel mode for the amp.

Then, use ms8 outputs as follows:

1: front left one way
2: front right one way
3: subwoofer

Connect rcas from the ms8 to the appropriate inputs on the amp and connect speakers to the appropriate speaker outputs.

You can use the 4 channel amp in your question the same way and possibly get more power to the sub. For what the stealthbox costs, you might want to use one sub on the mono channel of the amp you have already and use a custom box.


----------



## pennstatejoe21

billw said:


> The front and rear labels on the amp don't matter in this situation. You won't be using rears on the ms8 either. From the looks of it, follow the instructions in the manual for 3 channel mode for the amp.
> 
> Then, use ms8 outputs as follows:
> 
> 1: front left one way
> 2: front right one way
> 3: subwoofer
> 
> Connect rcas from the ms8 to the appropriate inputs on the amp and connect speakers to the appropriate speaker outputs.
> 
> You can use the 4 channel amp in your question the same way and possibly get more power to the sub. For what the stealthbox costs, you might want to use one sub on the mono channel of the amp you have already and use a custom box.


So in bridged mode I don't need a signal to the rear channels? I can just use the FR and FL inputs on the amp? Thanks for your help!!


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## pennstatejoe21

Forgot to mention I have image dynamics components up front. Should I still assign it as 1 way?


----------



## billw

If the components have a passive crossover, then yes.

If they dont, you can certainly run the components active. You would set them as a 2 way, but then you wouldn't be able to bridge the amplifier. You would have to use 2 amp channels for the mids, 2 for the tweeters, and the mono channel on the sub.

Then the outputs would be something like this:

1: front left hi
2: front right hi
3: front left low
4: front right low
5: subwoofer


----------



## tbomb

Been a while since I have ran my MS-8. Looking to do a new build. Car is a 2000 Olds Intrigue. Was just going to keep it simple and put all the JBL stuff from the GTI in it, but I have a NIB set of the Pioneer Stage 4 3-way that I am itching to use. But I am running out of channels. The recommended power on the Pioneers is fairly low.....I am thinking running everything active, running mid, tweeter and rears off MS8 and power Midbass/subs of GTO 3 channel. My brain cant remember if it will work that way. Telling MS-8 there is no sub and just using the amps crossover.

I have a set of old kicker passives I could use, but xover point is 3500.


----------



## pennstatejoe21

billw said:


> If the components have a passive crossover, then yes.
> 
> If they dont, you can certainly run the components active. You would set them as a 2 way, but then you wouldn't be able to bridge the amplifier. You would have to use 2 amp channels for the mids, 2 for the tweeters, and the mono channel on the sub.
> 
> Then the outputs would be something like this:
> 
> 1: front left hi
> 2: front right hi
> 3: front left low
> 4: front right low
> 5: subwoofer


Billw can't thank you enough! Got everything hooked up and it sounds awesome!! Thanks again!!


----------



## 1lowlife

*Re: Bridge question*



pennstatejoe21 said:


> I just have a question about bridging amp channels with the MS-8. First off is it possible and how do you do it? I have a 15 Tundra. Stock head unit MS-8 and a polk PA D5000.5. I am just using the front channels on the polk at the moment and would like to bridge it to get more power just not sure if its possible. Another thing is the sub. I was looking at the JL stealthbox but it runs on 4ohms with no way to wire it down to 2. My amp at 4ohms on the sub channel is only 200watt. Would it make sense to pick up a 4 channel 4ohm amp and bridge 2 channels to the stealthbox and use the others for the front? Would it even work with the MS-8? Any advice would help!! Thanks in advance!


I'd go for a 5 channel amp.
I'm running an Alpine PDX V-9 and SB-T-TUNDB3/10TW3 stealthbox in my 14 Tundra DC.
It runs the front door components (tweeters and mids on separate channels) and the sub.
I also have another 4 channel Alpine amp for the rear doors and the other 2 channels are bridged for the center.
I pulled the stock side dash speakers out.

You can run a 5 channel amp for the front doors and sub, then use the MS-8 internal amps for the rear doors and center.
I did that at first, but I like having the additional amp instead.

I have a double cab, you may have a crewmax..







Read thru this thread and there are also a few other threads on my Tundra forum involving the MS-8.

2014 DC Audio Upgrade!! (JBL MS-8, JL Sub, etc.) .. Long Post! - TundraTalk.net - Toyota Tundra Discussion Forum


----------



## billw

tbomb said:


> Been a while since I have ran my MS-8. Looking to do a new build. Car is a 2000 Olds Intrigue. Was just going to keep it simple and put all the JBL stuff from the GTI in it, but I have a NIB set of the Pioneer Stage 4 3-way that I am itching to use. But I am running out of channels. The recommended power on the Pioneers is fairly low.....I am thinking running everything active, running mid, tweeter and rears off MS8 and power Midbass/subs of GTO 3 channel. My brain cant remember if it will work that way. Telling MS-8 there is no sub and just using the amps crossover.


Electrically, that should work. I suspect ms8 will be confused when it detects low frequencies coming from the front and back of the car simultaneously. You might want to only have the midbasses playing for the first 2 sweeps and then connect the subs. But, that's purely guessing.

Andy has always recommended using an outboard crossover(active or passive) between the mid and the tweeter, but I can't remember the exact reasoning.

Try it and see what happens.


----------



## pennstatejoe21

*Re: Bridge question*



1lowlife said:


> I'd go for a 5 channel amp.
> I'm running an Alpine PDX V-9 and SB-T-TUNDB3/10TW3 stealthbox in my 14 Tundra DC.
> It runs the front door components (tweeters and mids on separate channels) and the sub.
> I also have another 4 channel Alpine amp for the rear doors and the other 2 channels are bridged for the center.
> I pulled the stock side dash speakers out.
> 
> You can run a 5 channel amp for the front doors and sub, then use the MS-8 internal amps for the rear doors and center.
> I did that at first, but I like having the additional amp instead.
> 
> I have a double cab, you may have a crewmax..
> 
> Hey 1lowlife,
> 
> I actually saw your install on the tundratalk forums. One of the reasons I went with the MS-8 so thank you! I am currently running my Polk 5 channel which is now bridged to the front components and sounds great. I have the MS-8 powering the center and rear channels as you mentioned too. Now I have to figure out my sub issue. I would like to keep my current amp without adding another to power the sub but with the stealthbox wired at 4 ohm it will only give it 200 watts. If I can get it down to 1 ohm I can push 500 watts out of her so Im looking at other options. How does that stealthbox sound? I actually emailed JL about a lower ohm option for the double cab. We will see what they say.


----------



## tbomb

I should have just been more direct in my question, just wanted to confirm I can you all 8 outputs for whatever I want. None have to be used for sub...


----------



## wrager

MS8 has been installed for about a year. Now when the outside temp gets below 50, the MS8 will not power up. Once I drive for 10 minutes or so, it will heat up and turn on. What a PITA!

I just unplugged the display and it works now! What a POS this thing has turned out to be.


----------



## 14642

LCDs don't work when it's cold, but you should have no problem at 50 degrees. Call JBL and get a new display.


----------



## NBusiness

Jbl will not sell displays now because ms8 is discontinued. Does anyone know where to acquire one I need a new one.


----------



## billw

I have a broken MS8 that likely can't be repaired. I'll probably have the other parts for sale soon. I have no idea what a display might be worth. Send me a PM if you're interested.


----------



## maggie-g

NBusiness said:


> Jbl will not sell displays now because ms8 is discontinued. Does anyone know where to acquire one I need a new one.


not true at all. I broke my display and purchased a new one by calling Harman tech support. Here is the ordering info:

Item 
W-XP-0001-0000 

Description 
DISPLAY UNIT 

Your Price
$64.77 

Quantity 
1 / each 

Extended Price
$64.77


----------



## NBusiness

maggie-g said:


> not true at all. I broke my display and purchased a new one by calling Harman tech support. Here is the ordering info:
> 
> Item
> W-XP-0001-0000
> 
> Description
> DISPLAY UNIT
> 
> Your Price
> $64.77
> 
> Quantity
> 1 / each
> 
> Extended Price
> $64.77



Wow. I emailed them yesterday and they told me it was no longer being offered. Please tell me who you contacted to make the purchase. Thank you


----------



## Marco9

I'm intetested aswell, thanks


----------



## Chipster777

I never thought I would have to post in this thread because up until now my MS8 had been performing flawlessly. SO much for that....lol. 

It seems that there is a problem with the internal amplifier that until now went unnoticed because I had been running the unit passive. With my previous setup I was using an A/D/S PH15 running my tweets, mids and rear/sides. I recently acquired a JL 450/4 so I figured I would utilize the MS8's internal amp to run the rear/sides. Channels 3-4(tweets),1-2(Mids) line out to the 450/4 respectively so I tied in 5-6 from the speaker output plug to my rears. What occurred was during the output test when I tested FR the FR comps sounded but the RL sounded also. When switched to FL the RR would sound. No matter what channel I would assign the Front comps to, when in test mode, the opposing rear would sound with it. Only way to defeat the rears is to unplug the speaker output harness from the MS8. 

I then proceeded to try wiring the rears to different outputs on the speaker harness, unplug the RCA's from the MS8 for channels 1-4 and try and then systematically assigned the sides to different channels to try and see if I could get them to sound during the output test mode and nothing.

It would seem that I have found the reason why my MS8 was put up for sale....lol. It appears the internal amp is shorted somehow internally which is a bummer because I really enjoyed having the rear channels hooked up with L7 enabled. Made my concert DVD's sound awesome! If I were to add another 2 channel amp I could get them to work but I just don't have the room for another friggen amp...lol. Maybe I could find a teeny tiny one but a lot of work for a couple xtra speakers I rarely use. 

If anyone has any ideas let me know. Thanks guys!


----------



## chuyler1

When I hooked up my speakers to the internal amp I could swear I did it 1-2 (tweets) 3-4 (mids) 5-6 (rear) 7 (sub). But when testing channels they were all jumbled. It could just be the wires are labeled wrong. I never went back to figure it out, I just memorized the new configuration. So keep trying and see if maybe the labels don't match up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Chipster777

Thanks for the reply. What I am wondering is how the MS8 determines whether or not you are using the amp or using the line outs? Is the internal amp active all the time or does it sense the rca plugged in and defeat that channel. There isn't anything you have to do to activate the amp I don't suppose. Its just is there when you tie in a speaker to it providing it has a signal.

I really want my back speakers working and the only option I have is to use a set of JL VR crossovers for the mids/tweets and run them passive on the 450/4 and then run the rears on the other 2 channels. I don't think its going to be worth it because I will be giving up an active front end for it......meh. Decisions.....decisions.


----------



## FordEscape

Have you taken care to ensure you are not using the same number channel output for both a speaker output and an RCA output? E.g. if you use speaker output 1 you can't also use line-level RCA output 1. You can use any combo of speaker/line-level RCA outputs, but only one or the other for each of the eight numbered output channels.

I'd check your wiring in that regard and then re-run the setup to ensure you've got the speakers assigned to the output channels matching that wiring (the final "Channel Selection" menu though of course ya gotta run the whole calibration/setup process to get there).

Apology in advance if you've already checked to ensure that is all correct, bummer if indeed your internal amp is toasted when you need to use it.


----------



## Chipster777

Yeah man, I appreciate the thought but I systematically went thru all of them last night. eg. while leaving the output rca's all unplugged but the line in rca's connected, I would tie the rear speakers to outputs 1+2 then go thru set up and assign them to 1+2 and check in the output test....nothing. Then assign to 3+4 and check again....nutin,,,,excetra excetra...lol. There should be a signal there on at least one set of speaker wires as long as the sides are assigned a pair of channels, no? I am just tired of screwing with it. I may just have to get me a tiny 2 channel amp and add it in for the rears...lol. It has worked flawless working passive so I guess that's a plus considering all the problems I have read about on here.


----------



## chuyler1

I think I put mine in test mode and grabbed each pair of wires until i found the right ones. As I said before, something was mis-labeled on my harness so if you are scratching your head trying to figure it out, go back to the basics. Turn on the test tone for each channel separately and mess with wires until the right one plays.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## brusty

Hey guys,

The subwoofer level topic's been covered periodically on this thread along with accounts of lacking midbass (read something around 200 pages of this thread in anticipation of installing the MS-8 months ago), but thought I'd add another account.

Installed the MS-8 in mid-October and have been gradually swapping out components of my car audio system since.

The first time I listened was a very emotional experience. I'd never heard car audio sound this good, staging, etc. Placement of singers, instruments, effects... This was with the "stock" premium dash speakers and midbasses of a Hyundai Sonata Ltd, swapped rear coaxes, and basic GT-BassPro sub in the trunk.

Over the next month, swapped the sub for an MS-Basspro SQ (great sub, but IB setup is in the works...build thread will be in the forum soon), swapped the fronts for P660C midbasses and P26T tweets in the sail panels. Imaging wasn't as good with the tweets (beaming/crossover/etc relative to midbasses with a large distance between the speakers), so I reconnected the old dash speakers.

Today I swapped the tiny single cone dash speakers for (larger) 3.5" JBL GTO329 coaxes. Ended up driving around for two hours just listening to all sorts of music...

Here's the kicker.

*SET YOUR SUB LEVEL CORRECTLY.*

Before tonight, I'd done well over a dozen full setups with the MS-8 now, experimenting with crossover points and even treating the sub like a low frequency driver in a 3-way front setup. Now I'm back to calling it a sub in setup.

Turns out I'd always had it way too loud during setup. I couldn't imagine having to turn the gain almost ALL the way down on the sub's onboard amp, but finally grudgingly did so during my final setup this evening.

Before I'd fiddled for ages with levels after the initial tune, messed with the 31-band EQ to compensate for what felt like a bad/uneven tune in the subbass region, cranked the subwoofer + bass tone control to the max, and felt like the bass was still misshapen, bloated at times, hardly there at others.

_Mindblowing_ now. Even, measured bass all the way down to the lowest extension. Seamless transition into midbass, which is NOT anemic.

Absolutely _beautiful_. Proper sub EQ combined with dash drivers with actual coax tweets meant I heard things I'd never heard before in music, as the cliche goes. I will probably go driving again later tonight just to listen more.

I felt like a bit of an ass after having read "check your sub level, check your sub level" so many times...and am now finally *really* hearing the gospel.

*To anyone out there like me...you should NOT feel the sub during sweeps. It should be very quiet.*

Carry on.


----------



## chuyler1

572 pages...we really do need to whittle this down into a FAQ and best practices for pre-setup steps...or has that been done already?


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----------



## billw

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...discussion/85136-ms-8-tips-tricks-thread.html


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## chuyler1

Awesome!


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----------



## fantasy

Problem: both of my front mids cut in and out during music playback.

I just installed new front mids and tweeters and of course redid the calibration. Now both of my front mids randomly cut in and out (at the exact same time). I redid a few calibrations and then swapped my tweeters and mids' amps (they were on different amps) and I'm still getting the same problem so it's not the amp. 

I know it's not the rca wires either because when swapping amps, those wires are swapped too. It's also know it's not the channels on the ms8 because I can set the mids on channel 1&2 or 3&4 and it's still the same. 

I can hear the mids perfectly when doing the calibration sweeps and also when I go into the secret menu and do its output testing. 

What I've noticed is that when the volume is low I can hear the mids 90% of the time. When I turn up the volume a little bit, I can only hear it maybe 10% of the time. 

I did nothing to the system besides changing the four speakers. 

You guys have any ideas what's wrong or what else should I check?


----------



## Lanson

When things start cutting out, I start removing things and diagnose each item individually, until the culprit is discovered. Since they both cut out at the same time, we can assume it isn't a wiring issue as far as what's in the car. 

But based on what you've got described, there's not enough there to tell you what's wrong. Just got to go back to the basics, eliminate an item and try, see where the problem happens.



fantasy said:


> Problem: both of my front mids cut in and out during music playback.
> 
> I just installed new front mids and tweeters and of course redid the calibration. Now both of my front mids randomly cut in and out (at the exact same time). I redid a few calibrations and then swapped my tweeters and mids' amps (they were on different amps) and I'm still getting the same problem so it's not the amp.
> 
> I know it's not the rca wires either because when swapping amps, those wires are swapped too. It's also know it's not the channels on the ms8 because I can set the mids on channel 1&2 or 3&4 and it's still the same.
> 
> I can hear the mids perfectly when doing the calibration sweeps and also when I go into the secret menu and do its output testing.
> 
> What I've noticed is that when the volume is low I can hear the mids 90% of the time. When I turn up the volume a little bit, I can only hear it maybe 10% of the time.
> 
> I did nothing to the system besides changing the four speakers.
> 
> You guys have any ideas what's wrong or what else should I check?


----------



## fantasy

fourthmeal said:


> When things start cutting out, I start removing things and diagnose each item individually, until the culprit is discovered. Since they both cut out at the same time, we can assume it isn't a wiring issue as far as what's in the car.
> 
> But based on what you've got described, there's not enough there to tell you what's wrong. Just got to go back to the basics, eliminate an item and try, see where the problem happens.


I though it might have been the hu, but I tried using the aux input on the ms8 instead of the hu and it's still the same problem. 

I've now really noticed that when I turn the volume up, the mids will cut off, but when I turn it back down, it'll work again. It's weird because when I go to the secret menu and test the outputs, the mids will work perfectly no matter the volume.


----------



## fantasy

I'm starting to think that there's something wrong with the ms8 itself now. I've switched up everything, speakers, sources, wiring, amps, and it's still doing the same thing. It's just weird that it did it right after I changed speakers. 

It only does it when I turn up the music to an above average volume. 

Is there some secret method to reset the unit besides going into the system settings and selecting restore factory defaults?


----------



## 1lowlife

fantasy said:


> I'm starting to think that there's something wrong with the ms8 itself now. I've switched up everything, speakers, sources, wiring, amps, and it's still doing the same thing. It's just weird that it did it right after I changed speakers.
> 
> It only does it when I turn up the music to an above average volume.
> 
> Is there some secret method to reset the unit besides going into the system settings and selecting restore factory defaults?


There is a rest button on the unit itself, but I think it does the same thing.
You might have already answered this, but did you put the old speakers back in and see/hear what happens?


----------



## 14642

Check to be sure that the wires for the new speakers aren't touching the metal of the car--check the tinsel leads, especially. This sounds like a shorted speaker (at higher excursion) to me. Could also be a tweeter wire.


----------



## Sine Swept

You could disconnect your speaker output leads and check for continuity to ground. If any of those leads show continuity (to ground) that would be the place to check. 

I have personally had a not well placed piece of CLD touch the terminals of my powered front speakers while testing out some things in my driveway 4-5 years ago. The end result was me too far away to kill the system, I ended up frying an output transistor in my radio. I am still using this radio all these years later, but it still doesn't have any front outputs (except HI level).

I would even try the continuity to ground while swinging the doors open and closed to see if that was the culprit.


----------



## FordEscape

Sine Swept said:


> You could disconnect your speaker output leads and check for continuity to ground. If any of those leads show continuity (to ground) that would be the place to check.....


Just recognize that since in this case the issue is intermittent and volume related, and if as Andy suggests the problem is related to high excursion shorting of a tinsel lead, the 'passive' test you suggest won't necessary reveal the problem circuit.


----------



## HisHeirness23

I need help locating a display for the MS-8. Mine got thrown away during a recent move 

I would be willing to pay someone just to borrow it for a week or so while I re-calibrate my system. If you have one you are willing to let me borrow, please PM me and we can work something out. Local pick-up in the SF Bay Area also works.

TIA!


----------



## Loudy

fantasy said:


> I'm starting to think that there's something wrong with the ms8 itself now. I've switched up everything, speakers, sources, wiring, amps, and it's still doing the same thing. It's just weird that it did it right after I changed speakers.
> 
> It only does it when I turn up the music to an above average volume.
> 
> Is there some secret method to reset the unit besides going into the system settings and selecting restore factory defaults?


Mine cuts the sub in and out as it pleases and sometimes left or right as it pleases. My unit tends to do the opposite of yours with regard to volume though; sometimes if I crank it to near max volume, everything comes back to life. JBL customer service told me it is an internal issue and that I need to take it to an authorized repair shop. I have yet to do so...


----------



## fantasy

I was about to go to sleep but I wanted to let you guys know that the problem has been fixed! When I read Andy's post, a light bulb just went off in my head.

I remembered when I mounted the mids, I could slightly hear metal rubbing on each other. I went and unscrewed the right mid and just let it sit on the passenger's floor and played loud music for a few minutes. Everything stayed fine, so I knew that was the problem. 

It wasn't even the wires or leads touching anything. The mid's whole frame is metal (as opposed to the previous mid's smaller plastic frame), and when I mounted it, its frame rested a little bit on the door's frame because that was the only way I could've fitted it. And it barely touched too because I could see where the paint peeled off a little bit, but that little bit gave me a week's worth of problem! 

I actually mentioned about switching out the mid before, but I only did the left mid, which obviously didn't fix anything lol. Apparently the left mid was mounted without touching any metal.










That little green part was rubbing with the mid. I just went ahead and taped the whole way around just to be sure. Don't mind the ugly screw marks, it has been fixed. 

I just wanted to say thanks to Andy for his continuous support on his product and everyone else for chiming in. Good night!


----------



## 14642

30 years of troubleshooting--


----------



## Darth SQ

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> 30 years of troubleshooting--


:thumbsup:


Bret
PPPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## LaydSierra

Can you do 3 way active front, mono rear fill & mono sub with the MS-8?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## kaigoss69

LaydSierra said:


> Can you do 3 way active front, mono rear fill & mono sub with the MS-8?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


No, but if you need the rears you can run the sub off of the midbass signal.


----------



## LaydSierra

kaigoss69 said:


> No, but if you need the rears you can run the sub off of the midbass signal.


It wouldn't mess with anything when it's doing the sweeps & autotune? If not, I guess the only thing I'd lose would be slope adjustment for the midbass?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## kaigoss69

LaydSierra said:


> It wouldn't mess with anything when it's doing the sweeps & autotune? If not, I guess the only thing I'd lose would be slope adjustment for the midbass?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Works just fine. In fact a lot of people have had better sub/midbass integration using this method.


----------



## LaydSierra

kaigoss69 said:


> Works just fine. In fact a lot of people have had better sub/midbass integration using this method.


Hmm...I'm really starting to lean towards picking up one of these now. I know the autotune will help me out a lot. What options are there for the rear fill?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## FordEscape

LaydSierra said:


> Can you do 3 way active front, mono rear fill & mono sub with the MS-8?





kaigoss69 said:


> No, but if you need the rears you can run the sub off of the midbass signal.





kaigoss69 said:


> Works just fine. In fact a lot of people have had better sub/midbass integration using this method.


I've seen (and run myself for awhile) your 'Kaigoss Method' with sub on Front Lo and with Front Mid + Front Hi (six channels out, Front Lo both connected to mono sub amp input) which leaves 2 channels for side/rear.

But to clarify, that doesn't allow active 3-way front + sub + side/rear, correct? 

If you have 3-way drivers (midbass + mid + tweeter) in the front and a sub you'll have to run one of those front XO's passive, correct?


----------



## LaydSierra

FordEscape said:


> I've seen (and run myself for awhile) your 'Kaigoss Method' with sub on Front Lo and with Front Mid + Front Hi (six channels out, Front Lo both connected to mono sub amp input) which leaves 2 channels for side/rear.
> 
> But to clarify, that doesn't allow active 3-way front + sub + side/rear, correct?
> 
> If you have 3-way drivers (midbass + mid + tweeter) in the front and a sub you'll have to run one of those front XO's passive, correct?


Yeah, if I do it I'd use the front low for active subsonic & low pass then use the amps for the sub low pass & midbass high pass. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## T3mpest

kaigoss69 said:


> Works just fine. In fact a lot of people have had better sub/midbass integration using this method.


Indeed, this is the only way I've gotten good results with the sub in my car. No matter what else I doesn't really EQ the sub, leaving obvious peaks in response on the sub and it's too loud.

Setting it up so my sub is the "front low" from 60hz and down, suddenly it gives it a almost perfect EQ curve (I prefer a touch more at 25 and 30hz, about 1db) and the integration with my mids is VERY good, better than I've had tuning myself for sure. I don't even have to try and level match it, it works as advertised that way.


----------



## 14642

Yeah, this avoids the subwoofer level setting part of the algorithm which is easily confused by some subwoofer arrangements.


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## LaydSierra

Idk if this is helpful info but the sub will be firing forward into the rear passenger seat in my Mega cab so everything is inside the cabin with you. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## kaigoss69

FordEscape said:


> If you have 3-way drivers (midbass + mid + tweeter) in the front and a sub you'll have to run one of those front XO's passive, correct?


You can't do that. A front 1 way uses 2 channels, a 2-way uses 4 and a 3-way uses 6. There's no option to do a 3-way with 5 channels, and for a good reason.


----------



## Lanson

Can't do mono rear fill with MS-8, I think that's where the calculations are going awry in some people's questions.

You can totally use passives along with the MS-8's abilities though, that's how I managed to get a 3-way front + 2-way center + rear fill + sub in my Flex. And that one didn't require the Kaigoss method but others have. I've found in my builds and time with the MS-8, that if the midbass is strong enough (plays low enough and with enough authority), the blend effect is pretty good with the sub. And if I'm running "softer" front midbass then the Kaigoss method works better. But that's just been my personal experience so far.

Worth noting that usually when running a powerful midbass I'm also running a powerful sub stage, so perhaps its the blend of the two, not just the midbass itself.


----------



## FordEscape

kaigoss69 said:


> You can't do that. A front 1 way uses 2 channels, a 2-way uses 4 and a 3-way uses 6. There's no option to do a 3-way with 5 channels, and for a good reason.


Got it, my poor explanation to blame. Was referring to using passive (or amp-provided active) XO external to the MS-8 for _both_ sides of the setup as suggested by fourthmeal.

e.g. I ran 3-way front with sub on front lo + side/rear. I actually had a true 3-way front in addition to the sub....
+ set the MS-8 front _lo_ filters appropriate for the sub
+ set the MS-8 filters for front _mid_ appropriate for my door midbass
+ set the MS-8 filters for front _hi_ to cover the spectrum for both midrange and tweeter in the A-pillars
+ used the external amp filters (could have been a passive XO) to set the LP/HP between the midrange and tweeter.

MS-8 seemed to calibrate the TA and levels for the closely-adjacent midrange/tweeter on each side just fine, did a tweak of the tweeter level on the external amp after calibration to get it 'sweet' (probably could have done the same with MS-8 EQ).

Running the sub on front lo _did_ make the auto-calibrated sub>front stage relationship much more satisfying, so I thank you again for that idea!


----------



## kaigoss69

FordEscape said:


> Got it, my poor explanation to blame. Was referring to using passive (or amp-provided active) XO external to the MS-8 for _both_ sides of the setup as suggested by fourthmeal.
> 
> e.g. I ran 3-way front with sub on front lo + side/rear. I actually had a true 3-way front in addition to the sub....
> + set the MS-8 front _lo_ filters appropriate for the sub
> + set the MS-8 filters for front _mid_ appropriate for my door midbass
> + set the MS-8 filters for front _hi_ to cover the spectrum for both midrange and tweeter in the A-pillars
> + used the external amp filters (could have been a passive XO) to set the LP/HP between the midrange and tweeter.
> 
> MS-8 seemed to calibrate the TA and levels for the closely-adjacent midrange/tweeter on each side just fine, did a tweak of the tweeter level on the external amp after calibration to get it 'sweet' (probably could have done the same with MS-8 EQ).
> 
> Running the sub on front lo _did_ make the auto-calibrated sub>front stage relationship much more satisfying, so I thank you again for that idea!


Oh okay, sure you can do that. I actually tried that once, but failed miserably. Perhaps it was the crappy amp crossovers to blame, perhaps it was something different, but I quickly went back to a true active 3-way front.


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## FordEscape

kaigoss69 said:


> Oh okay, sure you can do that. I actually tried that once, but failed miserably. Perhaps it was the crappy amp crossovers to blame, perhaps it was something different, but I quickly went back to a true active 3-way front.


My current setup is a 'Hybrid Kaigoss Method' taking advantage of the filters, unfiltered pass-thru and output level controls on the MS amps to get 9 discrete active channels ... Perhaps because of consistency with the filter circuit designs the MS amps seem to play very nicely with the MS-8. 

+ Amps are configured MS-8>front lo midbass amp>pass through>sub amp
+ amps for all other channels are direct to MS-8 with all amp filters defeated

For MS-8 auto config I turn off the sub amp, set the front lo HP on MS-8 to 20Hz, set the HP on the front midbass amp at 150Hz
+ run MS-8 config as normal for a 3-way front + side/rear (8 channels active by MS-8 as normal with no sub).

Then after MS-8 auto-config has the front and side stage sounding great, turn on the sub amp...
+ Set the sub amp HP to 20Hz, LP to 150Hz (sub is BMmkIV)
+ Tune the sub level using the amp output level with bass boost flat

I'm letting MS-8 autotune the 'critical' front 3-way + side/rear; I'm manually tuning the level of the sub without having to re-run MS-8 setup.

While this puts the sub on the same TA as the front midbass that still sounds OK to my ear. It was easier to get the sub>front level relationship 'ideal for my ear' by manual tweaking at the sub amp level without all the MS-8 recalibration runs. The sub is definitely NOT 'located' at the rear even though that's where it is installed.

Since the MS amp wireless bass-control-knob uses the same shelf-filter scheme as the nifty MS-8 sub filter, and connects to multiple MS amps, I use that to tweak the sub+front lo midbass EQ on-the-fly for certain albums/tracks of music where bass needs a bit of boost or attenuation to keep me happy. I don't even have the MS-8 display connected for daily use.

Been running with this 'Hybrid Kaigoss' setup for months now and really enjoying my music a lot.
:laugh:


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## Chipster777

LaydSierra said:


> Can you do 3 way active front, mono rear fill & mono sub with the MS-8?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


It wont allow the selection for side/rear if there aren't enough channels to support it. If you have already allocated 1-6 for three way leaving only 2 channels, it would probably only leave the options open for center and sub, and lock out the selections for side and rear. 

Having only 8 channels on this thing is a PITA sometimes. There still may be a way to finagle it together but I haven't messed with that since I am only running 2 way, rear and sub. If you have the means of doing a center channel, you would probably get more out of that than the rears anyways.

Damn, all those posts while I was typing this.......^^^.....lol. 

Looks like you got your answer....: )


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## LaydSierra

The only reason I was thinking of keeping the rears is because it's a Mega cab truck so the rear seat is pretty far from the front drivers lol

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## FordEscape

LaydSierra said:


> The only reason I was thinking of keeping the rears is because it's a Mega cab truck so the rear seat is pretty far from the front drivers lol ...


From way back in 2010, still a good explanation of how you'll benefit with rear (or only side/rear in MS-8 parlance) with L7.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1002963-post2151.html

I'd work to keep 'em with the MS-8 if I were you, the L7 'rear fill' really adds to the listening enjoyment IMHO, both when set for 'driver only' and when set for rear passengers.


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## maggie-g

14 degrees outside and my MS8 wouldnt turn on. This is my only gripe about the unit. I love the thing to death, but only when it turns on. I even had my remote start going with the heater on blast for 10 minutes before my 30 minute drive and it never turned on. Might have to wrap everything in space blankets in the winter just so I can use it


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## I800C0LLECT

maggie-g said:


> 14 degrees outside and my MS8 wouldnt turn on. This is my only gripe about the unit. I love the thing to death, but only when it turns on. I even had my remote start going with the heater on blast for 10 minutes before my 30 minute drive and it never turned on. Might have to wrap everything in space blankets in the winter just so I can use it


Hope is on the way!! Unfortunately...we'll have to pay. Can't wait to get the Audiofrog DSP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not sure how to get the wife excited about that too. hrmm.


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## chuyler1

My PPI DCX-720 had the same cold weather issues. It made horrendous electrical demon sounds when temps were below 15. I had to install a separate turn-on switch for my amps so they wouldn't blast that sound at full volume. 

Haven't had the issue with my MS-8 though. It was 7 degrees this morning and it fired up just fine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FordEscape

*Q about MS-8 Un-EQ ....*

I use the volume level on my OEM HU and can't say I'm displeased with how the sophisticated Un-EQ of the MS-8 deals with that.

But, I may have the opportunity to reprogram my OEM HU to render the speaker level output "flat" (defeating the volume-dependent EQ it imposes that the MS-8 works to 'correct'). This would not turn my speaker-level outputs into line-level outputs that could be connected to the MS-8 low-level inputs, it would just make them 'clean and flat' speaker level outputs.

So I'm wondering ... does the MS-8 spend processing overhead trying to Un-EQ any signal using the speaker-level inputs, even if it determines it is 'flat'?

Bottom line, would there be _any_ advantage to reprogramming the OEM HU for 'flat' EQ on speaker level outputs feeding my MS-8? Any disadvantage?


----------



## kaigoss69

*Re: Q about MS-8 Un-EQ ....*

I certainly don't see any disadvantages, especially if you can get rid of volume-dependent EQ, which the MS-8 can only fully correct at the exact HU volume setting that was used for calibration.



FordEscape said:


> I use the volume level on my OEM HU and can't say I'm displeased with how the sophisticated Un-EQ of the MS-8 deals with that.
> 
> But, I may have the opportunity to reprogram my OEM HU to render the speaker level output "flat" (defeating the volume-dependent EQ it imposes that the MS-8 works to 'correct'). This would not turn my speaker-level outputs into line-level outputs that could be connected to the MS-8 low-level inputs, it would just make them 'clean and flat' speaker level outputs.
> 
> So I'm wondering ... does the MS-8 spend processing overhead trying to Un-EQ any signal using the speaker-level inputs, even if it determines it is 'flat'?
> 
> Bottom line, would there be _any_ advantage to reprogramming the OEM HU for 'flat' EQ on speaker level outputs feeding my MS-8? Any disadvantage?


----------



## JVD240

*Re: Q about MS-8 Un-EQ ....*



FordEscape said:


> I use the volume level on my OEM HU and can't say I'm displeased with how the sophisticated Un-EQ of the MS-8 deals with that.
> 
> But, I may have the opportunity to reprogram my OEM HU to render the speaker level output "flat" (defeating the volume-dependent EQ it imposes that the MS-8 works to 'correct'). This would not turn my speaker-level outputs into line-level outputs that could be connected to the MS-8 low-level inputs, it would just make them 'clean and flat' speaker level outputs.
> 
> So I'm wondering ... does the MS-8 spend processing overhead trying to Un-EQ any signal using the speaker-level inputs, even if it determines it is 'flat'?
> 
> Bottom line, would there be _any_ advantage to reprogramming the OEM HU for 'flat' EQ on speaker level outputs feeding my MS-8? Any disadvantage?


Yeah, just be aware that the "sophisticated un-EQ" of the MS-8 is only done at that particular HU volume setting.

So if the HU is actively changing that at different volumes the MS-8 is NOT compensating for it.


----------



## FordEscape

*Re: Q about MS-8 Un-EQ ....*



kaigoss69 said:


> I....volume-dependent EQ, which the MS-8 can only fully correct at the exact HU volume setting that was used for calibration.





JVD240 said:


> Yeah, just be aware that the "sophisticated un-EQ" of the MS-8 is only done at that particular HU volume setting.
> 
> So if the HU is actively changing that at different volumes the MS-8 is NOT compensating for it.


I thought that, too, until another discussion about the MS-8 Un-EQ vs HU volume control pointed to this post by Andy

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/753542-post8.html

Maybe I'm totally mis-understanding but Andy seemed to say that the MS-8 Un-EQ algorithm is in fact 'dynamic' in the sense that it makes an attempt to 'properly' Un-EQ at HU volume levels other than just the calibration level.

That's a big part of the reason for my question ..... would a 'flat' signal connected to the speaker-level inputs of the MS-8 be interpreted as one needing EQ correction even though it actually does not? If "yes" then one might be better off leaving the HU un-modified so that whatever MS-8 does to it fits the 'typical OEM speaker-level output model' the MS-8 is designed to 'Un-EQ'.

To restate differently ... there's no user selection to tell the MS-8 that the input is flat or not flat (does not or does need Un-EQ). The apparent designed application anticipates once of two conditions:
1. Speaker-level inputs from an OEM HU that is assumed to need Un-EQ
OR
2. RCA (line-level) inputs from an aftermarket HU that is assumed to already be 'flat' (not need "Un-EQ').
SO
If you use speaker level inputs, does the MS-8 apply an Un-EQ algorithm even if not actually needed?


----------



## billw

I'm almost positive that the un-EQ is based on whether or not you use the cd at the beginning of the calibration. The MS8 uses the info on the cd to calibrate the input signal. It has nothing to do with the speaker or line level inputs.


----------



## Lanson

billw said:


> I'm almost positive that the un-EQ is based on whether or not you use the cd at the beginning of the calibration. The MS8 uses the info on the cd to calibrate the input signal. It has nothing to do with the speaker or line level inputs.


Well it must use the line level or speaker level inputs, those are the inputs from the head unit's outputs, which is playing the CD.

A volume is chosen, and the flattening process (phase and EQ) occurs, and voila, you're good. But if you change the volume, yes the EQ can change on some head units. In my 2010 Flex w/ a Sony sound system, this was readily apparent but in my 2013 Flex w/o Sony, I could crank the volume considerably more before the Ms-8 complained about the signal, and thus the 2013 sounded a lot better and had more steps of volume from quiet to loud.


----------



## JVD240

Yeah, but what he is saying is that he thinks it is actively EQing after the fact throughout a head units volume range.

I could be wrong... but I just don't see how this is possible. It originally EQs the input signal when you run the calibration because it is utilizing a reference sound it knows. If a head unit is applying different EQ curves throughout the volume range the MS-8 would have had to ask you to run the calibration at every volume setting.

Music is dynamic. When it is coming from the HU how does the MS-8 know what to boost/cut?


----------



## Lanson

It doesn't, except in the calibration phase.


----------



## billw

*Re: Q about MS-8 Un-EQ ....*



FordEscape said:


> To restate differently ... there's no user selection to tell the MS-8 that the input is flat or not flat (does not or does need Un-EQ). The apparent designed application anticipates once of two conditions:
> 1. Speaker-level inputs from an OEM HU that is assumed to need Un-EQ
> OR
> 2. RCA (line-level) inputs from an aftermarket HU that is assumed to already be 'flat' (not need "Un-EQ').
> SO
> If you use speaker level inputs, does the MS-8 apply an Un-EQ algorithm even if not actually needed?


I'm definitely NOT saying that it changes eq dynamically, according to volume level.

My point was that it applies un-EQ regardless of whether you use the speaker or line level inputs. 

MS8 runs the algorithm, regardless of the input method, and applies frequency response, time delay, and signal summing only if needed. If the signal is already good, I would imagine it does nothing.


----------



## billw

*Re: Q about MS-8 Un-EQ ....*



FordEscape said:


> I use the volume level on my OEM HU and can't say I'm displeased with how the sophisticated Un-EQ of the MS-8 deals with that.
> 
> But, I may have the opportunity to reprogram my OEM HU to render the speaker level output "flat" (defeating the volume-dependent EQ it imposes that the MS-8 works to 'correct'). This would not turn my speaker-level outputs into line-level outputs that could be connected to the MS-8 low-level inputs, it would just make them 'clean and flat' speaker level outputs.
> 
> So I'm wondering ... does the MS-8 spend processing overhead trying to Un-EQ any signal using the speaker-level inputs, even if it determines it is 'flat'?
> 
> Bottom line, would there be _any_ advantage to reprogramming the OEM HU for 'flat' EQ on speaker level outputs feeding my MS-8? Any disadvantage?



Also, when I read your post from today, I had no idea you were referencing this post from a couple days ago. I missed some context until I went back in the thread a bit more.


----------



## PorkCereal

Couldn't this be tested? Someone with the right tools, check the output at different volumes? See if they see dips or peaks?


----------



## tbomb

It only UnEQ's_* IF*_ you run that step. If you are sending a flat signal, no need to run that part of the setup.


----------



## FordEscape

tbomb said:


> It only UnEQ's_* IF*_ you run that step. If you are sending a flat signal, no need to run that part of the setup.


There's reasons other than 'non-flat EQ' to run the input setup routine when using an OEM HU or speaker level inputs (signal summing, TA correction, establish HU volume for acoustic calibration, etc)


----------



## The real Subzero

How does this MS8 integrate with the newer cars. Onstar, Blue tooth. I have another tread about changing my radio. but I would consider keeping oem source if the MS8 can be added to it with out sacrificing. So. If you are familiar with what I am asking, please contact me. 2016 Chevy Cruze


----------



## percy072

The real Subzero said:


> How does this MS8 integrate with the newer cars. Onstar, Blue tooth.


I had one in my 2014 Fusion that also has the Sync, GPS, MFT but the audio system itself was fairly basic, just had to tap the Front L + R output channels. All the voice commands, bluetooth, steering wheel controls etc...remained the same.

I think it gets a little more involved (tricky) if you have an OEM "upgraded" audio system with factory amps, 15 speakers with some form of OEM DSP but can still be used.


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## PorkCereal

My 15 focus st3 with the upgraded Sony works fine. I gave the ms8 all the outputs from the stock amp and with a little love you get sound


----------



## The real Subzero

percy072 said:


> I had one in my 2014 Fusion that also has the Sync, GPS, MFT but the audio system itself was fairly basic, just had to tap the Front L + R output channels. All the voice commands, bluetooth, steering wheel controls etc...remained the same.
> 
> I think it gets a little more involved (tricky) if you have an OEM "upgraded" audio system with factory amps, 15 speakers with some form of OEM DSP but can still be used.





PorkCereal said:


> My 15 focus st3 with the upgraded Sony works fine. I gave the ms8 all the outputs from the stock amp and with a little love you get sound


Later on I plan to change decks to my 80prs. Ok so I take front LR and go to MS8. I have a Focal K2 Power 100KRS going in the sails later and a Stereo Integrity TM65 midbass in the doors. and a Focal K2 Power 27 KX going in the rear trunk corner. These will be powered by an arc audio 5 channel. and Alpine MRD-m1000.

I will run all the wire and prep. for when I change the deck. but for now I just take the front channels and go to ms8, then rca from ms8 to amp, then from amp out to the front again and tap into the factory wire set to each factory speaker. and everything should work the same. ?


----------



## maggie-g

If you have bluetooth phone issues (person on the other end can hear themselves) search for the firmware update that turns the mute button on the MS8 remote into basically a "defeat" button. It kills all processing until you hear the button again so bluetooth calls will sound better.


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## PorkCereal

I think the ms8 plus the 80prs is redundant. But if you replace the ms8 with the prs later I think your end up with the about the same results in the end. Just a different interface. Overall you're on the right track.


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## FordEscape

The real Subzero said:


> ....Ok so I take front LR and go to MS8...... but for now I just take the front channels and go to ms8, then rca from ms8 to amp, then from amp out to the front again and tap into the factory wire set to each factory speaker. and everything should work the same. ?


Just one caveat .... IF your Cruz uses the rear channels _only_ for any alarms that you want to keep, go ahead and run the rear channels to the MS-8 inputs also.

EXAMPLE - on my Ford Escape (non-Sony, no OEM external amp) the 'beep tone' for the backup proximity sensor is on the rear channel speaker output only. If I use the front L&R speaker output alone to the MS-8 inputs I don't hear that warning tone when getting close to something in reverse, even though the music audio sounds great. Adding the rear speaker outputs to the MS-8 input didn't affect the audio quality but now I get all of the OEM alarms no problem.

Lesson learned ... start with the suggested front L&R only to MS-8 but if you've 'lost' any OEM alarms/tones, see if adding the rear channel inputs fixes the problem. You will of course need to re-run the complete MS-8 setup process if you add to the inputs.

FWIW my Bluetooth phone works just fine with the MS-8, no echoes or other issues. IMHO it is rare for you to need the 'mute patch' mentioned above .... definitely suggest you don't do that unless all else fails and you have a persistent phone echo problem.


----------



## double_b

Going to ask this in this "main" MS-8 thread. I asked it in a thread I started in System Design but have only got one reply.

I have a 2015 Tundra and it has three dash speakers. I plan on putting the Dayton RS100 in the center channel and I am thinking I want to do the Dayton RS75 in the Left and Right spots in the dash. Was thinking a full range in those spots may be better than the tweeters from my ID CSX65 component set (woofer going in front door).

I only have two channels of my PDX F4 amp available so I need to decide how to configure the front three dash speakers.

Options:

1. Amp the left and right channel with the PDX (will that blow the Daytons??) and power the center with the MS-8.

2. Amp the center channel with one of the available PDX channels and power the L & R with the MS-8.

3. Power all three with the MS-8 and don't use the available two channels from the PDX.

On a side note is it worth replacing the tweets from my ID component set with the full range Daytons? Or will it not make much difference?

Thanks


----------



## billw

I'd personally use 2 channels of the amp to drive the ID components, using the passive crossovers. Try using the tweeters in both the doors and dash and see what sounds best. Then, use one of the remaining channels for the center.

Of the choices you gave, use the ms8 to drive the LCR dash speakers. I don't think it matters a lot, since MS8 will level set the speakers based on the lowest output. in other words, if the center is quietest, it balance the left and right speakers to match the center.

You're buying a center speaker in all of these designs. If you try what I suggested and don't care for it, you can always buy the new left and right dash speakers and see what sounds best.


----------



## 14642

Just when it's been discontinued, one of the patents has been granted. 

Patent EP2421283A3 - Extraction of channels from multichannel signals utilizing stimulus - Google Patents


----------



## ChrisB

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Just when it's been discontinued, one of the patents has been granted.
> 
> Patent EP2421283A3 - Extraction of channels from multichannel signals utilizing stimulus - Google Patents



Timing is everything, lol


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## trysys

I have the Same Problem with the Please Wait Message can Somebody Help me


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## trysys

hi Guys

I have the same problem with the JBL MS - 8 ( please wait ) and had built it just apart. Can you say with the assignment where I need to solder which cable ?

would be really great if you help quickly I can get the part before me.


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## trysys

Meanwhile, I think that the display is broken . I have the MS8 bought used and I do not know whether such a weird solder joint is normal ?


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## sthind

I'm currently running my front stage actively, and have my rears running off the MS-8. The rears are okay, but on certain high notes, they distort (usually on female vocals). I have the rears crossed over pretty high (over 130, I believe). My rears are JL CR525s. The distortion is usually on higher notes at a higher level. I am wondering if this could be due to the MS-8 not providing enough power to the speakers, or if my speakers are just blown. I know this is limited information, but does anyone have any experience with this?


----------



## ssclassa60

sthind said:


> I'm currently running my front stage actively, and have my rears running off the MS-8. The rears are okay, but on certain high notes, they distort (usually on female vocals). I have the rears crossed over pretty high (over 130, I believe). My rears are JL CR525s. The distortion is usually on higher notes at a higher level. I am wondering if this could be due to the MS-8 not providing enough power to the speakers, or if my speakers are just blown. I know this is limited information, but does anyone have any experience with this?



20w of class D runs out pretty quickly... I would have to assume the amp is clipping. Pull your speakers and test them indoors to confirm their condition


----------



## kaigoss69

sthind said:


> I'm currently running my front stage actively, and have my rears running off the MS-8. The rears are okay, but on certain high notes, they distort (usually on female vocals). I have the rears crossed over pretty high (over 130, I believe). My rears are JL CR525s. The distortion is usually on higher notes at a higher level. I am wondering if this could be due to the MS-8 not providing enough power to the speakers, or if my speakers are just blown. I know this is limited information, but does anyone have any experience with this?


Do you have Logic 7 turned off?


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## sthind

kaigoss69 said:


> Do you have Logic 7 turned off?


Logic 7 is turned on.


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## ryanougrad

Can anyone help me with how to configure my setup if I go with the MS-8? I have 4 pairs of Alpine components running off passive crossovers currently (so driver sider front, driver side rear, pass side front, pass side rear). That already takes up 8 channels if active without including a subwoofer. I have a 4ch and sub amp already. So possible configurations if I understand the MS-8 are:

1. Run the front stage off the 4ch amp and run the rears off 2ch's of the MS-8 (keeping the passive crossovers in place), thus taking up 6 channels and then 2 channels for the dual subs. 
2. Run tweets off the MS-8 (4 tweets), the 4 midbass off the 4ch amp (so 8 channels) and if I read the MS-8 manual correctly I can then run the sub amp with it's own crossover and the MS-8 will still do time alignment. This will be 10 channels I believe.
3. Run front stage off of 4ch amp, rears 4 speakers off of MS-8 and sub amp with it's own crossover and the MS-8 will still do time alignment. This will be 10 channels I believe

Any help is appreciated. My preference is for number 3 but not sure if MS-8 can do the sub time alignment and processing in this configuration.


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## DDfusion

You only need 1 channel for the sub


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## DDfusion

sthind said:


> Logic 7 is turned on.


I have the same issue but I know what it is

At least with my car, I have a big null at 400hz and the MS-8 over boost it. 
Go into the EQ and start cutting around 400hz. Up or down a band until you find the bad spot. Keep playing the distorted part over and over until it's gone.


----------



## FordEscape

ryanougrad said:


> Can anyone help me with how to configure my setup if I go with the MS-8? I have 4 pairs of Alpine components running off passive crossovers currently (so driver sider front, driver side rear, pass side front, pass side rear). That already takes up 8 channels if active without including a subwoofer. I have a 4ch and sub amp already. So possible configurations if I understand the MS-8 are:


 First, let's use terms consistent with the MS-8 manual to make this easier. You have "Front", "Side" (not "rear", that's only used if you have both Side and Rear) and "Sub" speakers.

Second, you must understand that the MS-8 only supports "1-way" output for Side (or rear if you had them, too) speakers. So, since you actually have 2-way components for the side, they MUST be crossed with a passive or active XO external to the MS-8 and will only use 2 MS-8 channels (one for each side) no matter what. All drivers on _each side _will get the same TA from the MS-8 and will get a single level of output from the MS-8.

With that in mind ... 


ryanougrad said:


> 1. Run the front stage off the 4ch amp and run the *Sides* off 2ch's of the MS-8 (keeping the passive crossovers in place), thus taking up 6 channels and then 2 channels for the dual subs.


This is a common and very workable arrangement for the Front and Side. If you have a single external amp to drive both subs, they will use a single MS-8 "Sub" channel; if you have a separate amp for each sub each can use a separate MS-8 channel (MS-8 designation "2 subs").


ryanougrad said:


> 2. Run tweets off the MS-8 (4 tweets), the 4 midbass off the 4ch amp (so 8 channels) and if I read the MS-8 manual correctly I can then run the sub amp with it's own crossover and the MS-8 will still do time alignment. This will be 10 channels I believe.


Not viable; see above about side only allowing 1-way; also note that you can only use an MS-8 channel *once* (either with the internal amp with speaker level output *OR* the MS-8 RCA output with an external amp for that channel); you CANNOT use the same MS-8 channel with both the internal amp and an external amp to 'cheat' and get more channels.

No matter what, you only have *8 discrete channels *of output / TA / XO / level with the MS-8. The only way to get more 'speaker channels' is to use an external XO with an external amp to further subdivide two or more of the MS-8 output channels. You can split off the 'Front Lo' channels for the sub on an external amp with its own XO, but it will then have the same TA as the Front Lo (which may be OK given subsonic perception); but there's no need for that complication for your setup, IMHO.


ryanougrad said:


> 3. Run front stage off of 4ch amp, *Side* 4 speakers off of MS-8 and sub amp with it's own crossover and the MS-8 will still do time alignment. This will be 10 channels I believe.


Again, not viable, see above.

A viable option 2 would be: Drive your front tweeters with the MS-8 internal amp (2 MS-8 channels); drive your front woofers and "Sides with passive XO" with your external amp (4 MS-8 output channels); use 1 MS-8 channel for the sub amp (2 if you have 2 sub amps). Total = 7 (or 8) channels, active front, passive Side, correct TA & level for all of those channels managed by MS-8. 

Compared to option 1, this may work better since the front tweeters likely need much less power than the side components to achieve a proper 'level', especially if you like things loud. With option 1, the MS-8 internal amp driving the sides _may_ limit the total system level, even though the sides are always lower volume compared to front when using Logic 7 (sides are 'fill').

Personally, I'd probably start with the 'viable option 2' (front tweeters on the MS-8 internal amp, everything else on the external amps) configuration, get to know the system and *live with it awhile*; then, give option 1 a similar long-term test and see what pleases you best.

There are some other 'hybrid' options to achieve an active XO for the Sides, but not with the components you describe, and IMHO the benefit of that (active side XO) would be minimal, if any at all, especially if you primarily use Logic 7 "On" which relegates the sides to fill/ambiance (to great effect I might add). IMHO the active front managed by MS-8 is much more critical for good staging with autotune, especially if your tweeters are mounted high and your woofers are mounted low. Allowing the MS-8 to set those separated front driver TA and levels separately (tweeters and woofers each on their own channel) is hugely beneficial for autotune with minimal hassles, IMHO.

It would help to know
1. Your front speaker locations (tweeters in pillars, woofers in lower doors?)
2. Are the front and rear components the same?
3. What is the rated output of your external amp (similar to the internal MS-8 amp or much more rated output)?


----------



## ryanougrad

FordEscape said:


> It would help to know
> 1. Your front speaker locations (tweeters in pillars, woofers in lower doors?)
> 2. Are the front and rear components the same?
> 3. What is the rated output of your external amp (similar to the internal MS-8 amp or much more rated output)?


Wow. Thanks for the thorough response. Not certain I'm clear on side vs rear. Just looked at the manual again and I see both side and rear used. I have a four door SUV. In the rear doors their are component sets. So, does the MS-8 consider these speakers rear or side? I get the components up front are "front".

To answer your questions.
1. Tweets are in sails and woofers in lower doors in the front. In the rear doors the subs are in the lower door and tweets mounted in the upper door toward front of door.
2. I bought the car with the components already installed. I know the front components are Alpine ddc-f17c. I don't know what's in the rears as I haven't pulled the door panels. My guess is they aren't the same given the f17c were top of line in their day. Doubt owner paid cost of having them in rears doors. 
3. Amp is an old school Alpine V12 MRV-F307. Class AB. - RMS Power @ 4 Ohms: 30W x 4 @ 12V- RMS Power @ 4 Ohms: 50W x 4 @ 14.4V

Looking at the manual again a 7 channel setup seems best. 4 front channels (2 tweets and 2 mids). 2 rear or side channels  (using stock passive xo). 1 sub amp powering 2 subs. 

And another quick read has this in manual The MS-8 will then display Rear, with the options None and 1 way. (Separate outputs
for two-way speakers are not available for side or rear speakers.) So, no way to run rear/side active anyway. 

So thinking V12 on front stage, MS-8 on rear/side and Sub amp.


----------



## paperinacup

trysys said:


> Meanwhile, I think that the display is broken . I have the MS8 bought used and I do not know whether such a weird solder joint is normal ?


Any luck? Just bought one used from here and same issue. Seller is working with me to fix it and I'm hoping its the display cable which I have ordered.


----------



## FordEscape

ryanougrad said:


> .... Not certain I'm clear on side vs rear.....


See this on page 30 of the manual, immediately after the section on Front configuration: 

NOTE: If your system has side AND rear speakers, configure the side speakers in this section (Side) and the rear speakers in the next section (Rear). *If your system has only side OR rear speakers, configure those speakers in this section (Side), and skip the next section (Rear)*.

So, in your case, your rear-most speakers are _called_ "Side" for all MS-8 setup purposes. They are the only L&R speakers you have behind the "Front" (sub doesn't count ;-). If you had yet another speaker on each side in the area behind your SUV rear seats, then _those_ would be called "Rear" ;-)

When you get through configuration and start to assign channels, you'll assign "Side" channels, not "Rear".



ryanougrad said:


> .... So thinking V12 on front stage, MS-8 on rear/side and Sub amp.


 Given the additional info, that sounds like a good and easy setup, IMHO.


----------



## doeboy

I have had my MS8 running for a few years now. I bought it used on the forum and it looks like one of the first two channels is out. I cant recall which one, but they are used as the primary input into the system. Is there some way I can work around this failed rca input 1 or 2? I think there is an aux input. If not then I am thinking about a change up and going with an 80prs just to remove a component out of the trunk.


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## thehatedguy

You can use a couple of y-adapters to feed the other inputs or use the aux in.


----------



## Eglider05

I've got a new 5-channel Alpine PDX-V9 going in. Based on the pic of my gains where would 2V be?

Thanks,
Rick


----------



## FordEscape

Eglider05 said:


> I've got a new 5-channel Alpine PDX-V9 going in. Based on the pic of my gains where would 2V be?


Specs in your owners manual say the RCA input sensitivity voltage range is 0.2V-4.0V for ch. 1-4. So the span from MIN to MAX is 3.8V. Half of span is 1.9V. So, halfway in the range (NOM) is 2.1V (4.0-1.9 = 2.1 = 1.9+0.2). 

"MIN" Gain is for 4.0V input (minimum 'gain' is applied to the 4V input voltage)
"NOM" Gain is for 2.1V input <<this is close enough for your purpose, or set _very slightly _clockwise from "NOM"
"MAX" Gain is for 0.2V input (maximum 'gain' is applied to the 0.2V input voltage)

Now you know how to reasonably approximate the 'calibration' for those unlabeled gain knobs for any amp where you can find the input sensitivity voltage range spec. Full counterclockwise is always minimum gain, full clockwise is always maximum gain.


----------



## Eglider05

FordEscape said:


> Specs in your owners manual say the RCA input sensitivity voltage range is 0.2V-4.0V for ch. 1-4. So the span from MIN to MAX is 3.8V. Half of span is 1.9V. So, halfway in the range (NOM) is 2.1V (4.0-1.9 = 2.1 = 1.9+0.2).
> 
> "MIN" Gain is for 4.0V input (minimum 'gain' is applied to the 4V input voltage)
> "NOM" Gain is for 2.1V input <<this is close enough for your purpose, or set _very slightly _clockwise from "NOM"
> "MAX" Gain is for 0.2V input (maximum 'gain' is applied to the 0.2V input voltage)
> 
> Now you know how to reasonably approximate the 'calibration' for those unlabeled gain knobs for any amp where you can find the input sensitivity voltage range spec. Full counterclockwise is always minimum gain, full clockwise is always maximum gain.


Thank you very much for the info.

Rick


----------



## 1lowlife

Eglider05 said:


> I've got a new 5-channel Alpine PDX-V9 going in. Based on the pic of my gains where would 2V be?
> 
> Thanks,
> Rick


I have the same amp.
I have channels 1-4 halfway up, but the sub channel 5 is set at about 1/4.

But see what sounds best for you, you may have different results.


----------



## Eglider05

1lowlife said:


> I have the same amp.
> I have channels 1-4 halfway up, but the sub channel 5 is set at about 1/4.
> 
> But see what sounds best for you, you may have different results.


Thanks, that was a good starting point.

Rick


----------



## Pseudonym

I'm sure this has been discussed in this thread so just let me know what to search for cuz I'm coming up with strange results...

Every once in a while, usually when it's colder outside, my right side, mid and tweet, cuts out and is replaced with a white noise. Again it's not all the time. It annoys me to no end when it does happen though. Please tell me there's a fix.


----------



## Elgrosso

There are issues with the mic (shared channel I think).
And issues with the internal memory, that when full can gives some strange stuff.

Do you keep the mic plugged when listening? (should not)
When this happens is the volume stable or does it increase?

I had this few times too, even if it's never really cold here.
In my experience:
- if stable, no big deal in that case just off/on and it disappears.
- if volume increases fast, then definitely reset the unit and restart everything (could blow your speakers).

Try a search with "jet engine noise"


----------



## Pseudonym

It doesn't increase, it just sounds like the noise you'd get if your power wires and rca's are too close. Frequency changes with the RPM's kind of noise but only on the right side. Also the mic is unplugged.


----------



## Herbandskills

Los Angeles MS-8 gurus, I would like to hire someone to take a look at my 2010 Prius JBL system MS-8 install. I have been messing with this thing all week, and am about to rip it out and huck it out the window. This thing is over my installers head, so if anyone is in the area and is interested in a job for a couple hours getting this rig to work send me a PM. Thanks


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## thehatedguy

How many of you guys set your levels to mimic the final EQ curve, or do you just set everything to flat and let the processor make the curve?


----------



## Elgrosso

I do, well I did, when it was uber easy with the ms amps (shouldn't have sold them...)


----------



## DDfusion

thehatedguy said:


> How many of you guys set your levels to mimic the final EQ curve, or do you just set everything to flat and let the processor make the curve?


I just let it do its thing. 
Set all gains at 2v and flatten it out


----------



## Lord Raven

Guys, how do you set gains on these amplifiers having MS8 in the mix?

Amp 1,2 have sensitivity range from 0.3-4V
Amp3,4 have sensitivity range from 0.2-5V

What I tried was, and it did not really work for me. I erased the initial configs, and set front stage as 1 way, sub 1, center 1, sides, rears, all 8 transducers. I skipped the speaker configs where you hear the sweeps. Then I played an 80Hz tone from my HU. On all amp channels, I disconnected the speakers already, I received either 3.47V or 0.47V, I totally did not get what was going on.

How do I dial my amps to 2V? show I use a different Sine wave? My DMM is only able to detect 20-80Hz.

Also, do I configure sub channel at around 100Hz and play a 80Hz tone and move this RCA to all channels to configure my other channels? I think I am doing something wrong somewhere.

Edit: I am running active 7 channels, 3 way fronts and a sub. Do I need to raise the gain on tweeter channels as well? They go very loud for the sweeps if I do so. I run sweeps at around 45-50 on MS8.

Please help  Thanks!
LR


----------



## kaigoss69

Oh no, don't do that! 

All you need to do is set the amp gain knobs to approx. 2V. On amp 1,2 that would be about 12 o'clock, amp 3,4 about 1 o'clock.



Lord Raven said:


> Guys, how do you set gains on these amplifiers having MS8 in the mix?
> 
> Amp 1,2 have sensitivity range from 0.3-4V
> Amp3,4 have sensitivity range from 0.2-5V
> 
> What I tried was, and it did not really work for me. I erased the initial configs, and set front stage as 1 way, sub 1, center 1, sides, rears, all 8 transducers. I skipped the speaker configs where you hear the sweeps. Then I played an 80Hz tone from my HU. On all amp channels, I disconnected the speakers already, I received either 3.47V or 0.47V, I totally did not get what was going on.
> 
> How do I dial my amps to 2V? show I use a different Sine wave? My DMM is only able to detect 20-80Hz.
> 
> Also, do I configure sub channel at around 100Hz and play a 80Hz tone and move this RCA to all channels to configure my other channels? I think I am doing something wrong somewhere.
> 
> Edit: I am running active 7 channels, 3 way fronts and a sub. Do I need to raise the gain on tweeter channels as well? They go very loud for the sweeps if I do so. I run sweeps at around 45-50 on MS8.
> 
> Please help  Thanks!
> LR


----------



## kaigoss69

thehatedguy said:


> How many of you guys set your levels to mimic the final EQ curve, or do you just set everything to flat and let the processor make the curve?


I do, but I can't say it has made a difference vs. setting everything flat.


----------



## Elgrosso

kaigoss69 said:


> I do, but I can't say it has made a difference vs. setting everything flat.


Here too, sometime I saw no changes with a flat start, and sometime big help.


----------



## Lord Raven

I did not really get your question, can you please elaborate? 



thehatedguy said:


> How many of you guys set your levels to mimic the final EQ curve, or do you just set everything to flat and let the processor make the curve?


----------



## Lord Raven

Bro, I two Arc Audio SE amps (amp 1,2), on their knobs you cannot really tell the direction. This is the reason I wanted to do a DMM calculation to be precise with 2V output. Amps 3, 4 are the Focal LE amps, their knobs make clicking sound and I can easily tell the direction as well, if I am at 10 or 11 o'clock.

What do you suggest I should do? Just set the gains roughly by assuming direction?

If I set gains like this, and then hear the levels in Left and Right channels and there is a difference of sound between Tweets Mids and Midbass, what should I do then? 




kaigoss69 said:


> Oh no, don't do that!
> 
> All you need to do is set the amp gain knobs to approx. 2V. On amp 1,2 that would be about 12 o'clock, amp 3,4 about 1 o'clock.


----------



## kaigoss69

It doesn't have to be exact, bro . Set the gains like I told you. 12 o'clock is half way...

The gains are set to adjust to *input* voltage, and have nothing to do with *output* voltage.

Once you do that, and the sweep levels are different between the channels, reduce the gain on the loudest channels to equal the volume of the lowest volume channels. This does NOT include the subwoofer. For that, set the gain to minimum (all the way counter clockwise). If you don't hear the sub at all during the sweeps, increase the gain slightly. You should only hear it, not feel it!



Lord Raven said:


> Bro, I two Arc Audio SE amps (amp 1,2), on their knobs you cannot really tell the direction. This is the reason I wanted to do a DMM calculation to be precise with 2V output. Amps 3, 4 are the Focal LE amps, their knobs make clicking sound and I can easily tell the direction as well, if I am at 10 or 11 o'clock.
> 
> What do you suggest I should do? Just set the gains roughly by assuming direction?
> 
> If I set gains like this, and then hear the levels in Left and Right channels and there is a difference of sound between Tweets Mids and Midbass, what should I do then?


----------



## Jperez

Question. I have a jl 300/2 input sensitivity is .2v-2v. I set the gain all the way up, but then there is a hissing noise. Goes down when I set it down. Am I doing something wrong?


----------



## The real Subzero

Jperez said:


> Am I doing something wrong?


yes.


----------



## Lord Raven

I think I am going to try this next  Previously I was just setting the gains to match all the levels to be almost the same before the sweeps. I think only tweets might be loud after setting the levels.

I will get back on the outcome. I am pretty satisfied with the outcome already but the problem I am facing is that due to (probably) wrong gain setting, I have turn off pop which is very loud on the sub channel, it might be the wrong gain settings or maybe the amp has lost capacitor strength, needs re-caping or something.

I have a switch on one of my amps, Focal Dual Direct (Input sensitivity selector 0.2-0.7-1.5V), it has three values, 0.2 lo, 0.7 mid, 1.5 hi. Then there is a gain knob which goes from 0.2 to 5V. What I don't get is that, if you set a switch to a value let's say 1.5V then the maximum value of amplification gain is only 1.5V and that is achieved if I set the gain knob all the way clockwise. Isn't it? Or, should I just set it to 1.5V and then raise the gain to where I think 2V is on the knob from 0.2 to 5V? I really need a second thought on this from someone.

Description of Gain Selector is:
"GAIN SWITCH: the gain selector permits to determine the maximum value of the amplification gain. As an example the selection of a value of 0.2V results in the limitation of the gain in voltage at 0.2V when the rotary potentiometer GAIN is at the maximum of its movement."



kaigoss69 said:


> It doesn't have to be exact, bro . Set the gains like I told you. 12 o'clock is half way...
> 
> The gains are set to adjust to *input* voltage, and have nothing to do with *output* voltage.
> 
> Once you do that, and the sweep levels are different between the channels, reduce the gain on the loudest channels to equal the volume of the lowest volume channels. This does NOT include the subwoofer. For that, set the gain to minimum (all the way counter clockwise). If you don't hear the sub at all during the sweeps, increase the gain slightly. You should only hear it, not feel it!


----------



## kaigoss69

Jperez said:


> Question. I have a jl 300/2 input sensitivity is .2v-2v. I set the gain all the way up, but then there is a hissing noise. Goes down when I set it down. Am I doing something wrong?


Your gain is set to 0.2V....


----------



## Golfntob

The manual and its mention several times in this thread says to get the signal from the wires going to the front speakers. Is there anything wrong with getting it from the rear speakers? I get OK OK OK when it acquires the signal but I wanted make sure I wasn't making it hard on myself when it comes time for fine tuning.


----------



## thehatedguy

Are the rears full range?


----------



## Golfntob

No way of knowing. They are 6.5 inch in a 2012 Civic. Oh I'm using the sub for input as well. I assumed if it wasn't a full signal I wouldn't get all ok. But you know what assuming will get ya. That's why I thought I would ask.


----------



## DDfusion

They should be full range and fine.


----------



## Jperez

Thanks!


----------



## Golfntob

Thanks for the help.


----------



## Herbandskills

I am thinking of adding a pair of CDT M6 mid_bass drivers to my rear doors to help bridge the gap between my front component set and sub in the trunk.I have 125 wattsx2 unused on my Alpine amp.Has anyone done this sort of install with the MS-8? 

2010 Prius JBL factory HU, JBL MS-8, ALPINE MRV-F545 AMP, ALPINE MRP-M500 SUB AMP, MOREL TEMPO 6.5 COMPONENTS front doors, IDQ10 sealed box in da trunk.


----------



## Lord Raven

Hi Guys, 

I am still waiting for someone to respond, thanks! LR



Lord Raven said:


> I think I am going to try this next  Previously I was just setting the gains to match all the levels to be almost the same before the sweeps. I think only tweets might be loud after setting the levels.
> 
> I will get back on the outcome. I am pretty satisfied with the outcome already but the problem I am facing is that due to (probably) wrong gain setting, I have turn off pop which is very loud on the sub channel, it might be the wrong gain settings or maybe the amp has lost capacitor strength, needs re-caping or something.
> 
> I have a switch on one of my amps, Focal Dual Direct (Input sensitivity selector 0.2-0.7-1.5V), it has three values, 0.2 lo, 0.7 mid, 1.5 hi. Then there is a gain knob which goes from 0.2 to 5V. What I don't get is that, if you set a switch to a value let's say 1.5V then the maximum value of amplification gain is only 1.5V and that is achieved if I set the gain knob all the way clockwise. Isn't it? Or, should I just set it to 1.5V and then raise the gain to where I think 2V is on the knob from 0.2 to 5V? I really need a second thought on this from someone.
> 
> Description of Gain Selector is:
> "GAIN SWITCH: the gain selector permits to determine the maximum value of the amplification gain. As an example the selection of a value of 0.2V results in the limitation of the gain in voltage at 0.2V when the rotary potentiometer GAIN is at the maximum of its movement."


----------



## Elgrosso

Herbandskills said:


> I am thinking of adding a pair of CDT M6 mid_bass drivers to my rear doors to help bridge the gap between my front component set and sub in the trunk.I have 125 wattsx2 unused on my Alpine amp.Has anyone done this sort of install with the MS-8?
> 
> 2010 Prius JBL factory HU, JBL MS-8, ALPINE MRV-F545 AMP, ALPINE MRP-M500 SUB AMP, MOREL TEMPO 6.5 COMPONENTS front doors, IDQ10 sealed box in da trunk.




There should be no gap that's strange, sub should really appear from front if well set.
Rears with ms8 are typically used for Logic 7, ambiance surround, so over 100hz and delayed.
EQ + sub boost in the menu doesn't help?


----------



## Herbandskills

Elgrosso said:


> There should be no gap that's strange, sub should really appear from front if well set.
> Rears with ms8 are typically used for Logic 7, ambiance surround, so over 100hz and delayed.
> EQ + sub boost in the menu doesn't help?


I'm just starting to eq the rig, but I am interested in maybe some more punch in the midrange, and I have the space and watts unused. I thought about some coaxials in the rear doors,but I've always been a front stage guy.


----------



## Herbandskills

I'm gonna hook up some coaxials in the rear doors for the first time ever. Hopefully the ms-8 will keep the stage up front. Should I use logic7 even without a center channel?

2010 Prius JBL factory HU, JBL MS-8, ALPINE MRV-F545 AMP, ALPINE MRP-M500 SUB AMP, MOREL TEMPO 6.5 COMPONENTS front doors, IDQ10 sealed box in da trunk.


----------



## Herbandskills

Lord Raven said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I am still waiting for someone to respond, thanks! LR


The gains don't have to be at a certain level, just keep them really low on the amps for the sweeps. I set mine at 25%. I don't think the ms8 would cause a pop. I think that's a separate issue, but I'm not the guy to help you there dude.


----------



## Lord Raven

Herbandskills said:


> The gains don't have to be at a certain level, just keep them really low on the amps for the sweeps. I set mine at 25%. I don't think the ms8 would cause a pop. I think that's a separate issue, but I'm not the guy to help you there dude.


Pop could be due to a ground loop issue. I can understand, but, it could also be due to gain improperly set. 

Thanks. I need an answer on that gain selector switch that is available on one of my amps. It confuses me.


----------



## Lord Raven

thehatedguy said:


> How many of you guys set your levels to mimic the final EQ curve, or do you just set everything to flat and let the processor make the curve?


I don't get this question. 

Can anyone please explain? Thanks!


----------



## Elgrosso

Lord Raven said:


> I don't get this question.
> 
> Can anyone please explain? Thanks!


He meant like doing half of the job for the ms8.
Put the sub/woofer/mids/tweeters levels at the same level than the JBL target.
Ms8 handles level differences of +/-15db (maybe more) but few here tried to optimize before the calibration, so ms8 could "maybe" focus on better things.


----------



## Lord Raven

Elgrosso said:


> He meant like doing half of the job for the ms8.
> Put the sub/woofer/mids/tweeters levels at the same level than the JBL target.
> Ms8 handles level differences of +/-15db (maybe more) but few here tried to optimize before the calibration, so ms8 could "maybe" focus on better things.


Awesome, this is what I do. Try to level match by my ears and let MS8 do its magic. I'm running it for 4 + years now. LOL maybe this is last year of my misery.


----------



## Elgrosso

Herbandskills said:


> I'm gonna hook up some coaxials in the rear doors for the first time ever. Hopefully the ms-8 will keep the stage up front. Should I use logic7 even without a center channel?
> 
> 2010 Prius JBL factory HU, JBL MS-8, ALPINE MRV-F545 AMP, ALPINE MRP-M500 SUB AMP, MOREL TEMPO 6.5 COMPONENTS front doors, IDQ10 sealed box in da trunk.


That's the way to do it, components or coax that can play high enough, if possible tweeter at ear height. They won't mess your front stage, in fact they will increase depth and width.


----------



## Herbandskills

Elgrosso said:


> That's the way to do it, components or coax that can play high enough, if possible tweeter at ear height. They won't mess your front stage, in fact they will increase depth and width.


Hmmm, so I should get another component set rather than coaxial in the door?


----------



## Elgrosso

Herbandskills said:


> Hmmm, so I should get another component set rather than coaxial in the door?


Coax would fine too, but if you don't have them yet, then a set of components would be better. Especially if you can install them high enough, like in the C pillars.


----------



## Herbandskills

Elgrosso said:


> Coax would fine too, but if you don't have them yet, then a set of components would be better. Especially if you can install them high enough, like in the C pillars.


Thanks,i picked up a component set this morn.


----------



## AStephan

Sorry if this has been covered, but I cannot find the answer in this thread.

I'm running a 2 way front stage off a JL Audio HD 600/4. How do I set the levels for the tweets and mids, obviously the mids are going to need more power. Do I set the input level on the amp the same for the tweeter and mid channels, or differently to have roughly the same SPL?


----------



## DDfusion

Set them both at 2v. It will level match.


----------



## percy072

Getting some horrible turn on THUMPS pretty much everytime I start the car. I've almost gone through the sun roof a couple times...this is a new issue recently. I've been bouncing between a Helix and the MS-8 really trying to make up my mind. 

I thought the MS-8 had some form of built in delay?? but soon as I hit the start button..."FFFUUUMP" Now I just turn the volume way down on the control before shutting off the car, then after starting the car again turn the control back up to -6db and no problems. 

Going to try and external "delay on make" 12V relay...but could this be a sign that somethings probably F'd in the MS-8??


----------



## glockcoma

Only has turn off delay...
What are you using as a remote to turn on the ms-8?


----------



## DDfusion

Yeah that shouldn't be happening. Are the amps remotes coming from the MS-8?


----------



## percy072

Using a switched 12 V acc signal, that goes to REM in, then REM out to amps. I was using the Ford OEM RTO but it is only a 6 V signal and that would not work on the other processors but it THUMPED a couple times when the MS-8 was being triggered by the 6 V signal also.

It works fine otherwise...but it's a PIA to remember to turn the control way down, I've forgotten a couple time's only to get that cannon shot the next time I start the car


----------



## glockcoma

The ms-8 only needs 4+vdc to the remote in. 
I'm using my factory ford sub amp turn on to the remote in on the ms-8 and it works flawlessly (2010 Taurus SHO with Sony audio)


----------



## percy072

glockcoma said:


> The ms-8 only needs 4+vdc to the remote in.


It was starting to thump on me when I was using 6 Volt's...I don't think using a 12 V signal is causing this issue. Unless it's a circuit that is energized at the exact time as starting the car?? 

I'm hoping using a delay relay will fix it...but I'm also hoping the processor isn't developing an internal fault.


----------



## glockcoma

I follow now. I didn't read you whole post before. 
Have you tried installing a separate 12v switch for testing purposes so lyou can watch everything power up and try different sequences.


----------



## Lord Raven

Guys, I fine tuned all my 4 x amps to exactly 2 volt output by using a test tone generator on my cell phone and ran the entire setup again. I noticed there is a hiss in the tweet and mid channels with that 2 volt setting on those amps. What could be the reason of this hiss? Bad amps? If I reduce the gain, hiss goes away but the amps go down to lower output voltage settings.

Another thing, the sub and the right midbass driver, upon turning off the system, they pop. It is irritating. Here I am suspecting ground loops. All my ground points are different and I am going to relocation them to a single position today, God willing. What could other reasons be for this pop?

Thanks!


----------



## Lord Raven

Guys, I fine tuned all my 4 x amps to exactly 2 volt output by using a test tone generator on my cell phone and ran the entire setup again. I noticed there is a hiss in the tweet and mid channels with that 2 volt setting on those amps. What could be the reason of this hiss? Bad amps? If I reduce the gain, hiss goes away but the amps go down to lower output voltage settings.

Another thing, the sub and the right midbass driver, upon turning off the system, they pop. It is irritating. Here I am suspecting ground loops. All my ground points are different and I am going to relocation them to a single position today, God willing. What could other reasons be for this pop?

Thanks!


----------



## Sine Swept

Turn down the gains to no hiss, then retune the MS-8.


----------



## kaigoss69

Lord Raven said:


> Guys, I fine tuned all my 4 x amps to exactly 2 volt output by using a test tone generator on my cell phone and ran the entire setup again. I noticed there is a hiss in the tweet and mid channels with that 2 volt setting on those amps. What could be the reason of this hiss? Bad amps? If I reduce the gain, hiss goes away but the amps go down to lower output voltage settings.
> 
> Another thing, the sub and the right midbass driver, upon turning off the system, they pop. It is irritating. Here I am suspecting ground loops. All my ground points are different and I am going to relocation them to a single position today, God willing. What could other reasons be for this pop?
> 
> Thanks!


I hope you're not still looking for 2V *output*, when I told you weeks ago that it is the *input* setting that needs to be 2V.

Regarding pop, are you using the high-level inputs? That's what caused it for me. You can get rid of it by making the remote wire turn the MS-8 off last (after the amps).


----------



## Pseudonym

Pseudonym said:


> Every once in a while, usually when it's colder outside, my right side, mid and tweet, cuts out and is replaced with a white noise. Again it's not all the time. It annoys me to no end when it does happen though. Please tell me there's a fix.


The issue above seems to have fixed itself (for the most part) but now I get the left side just cutting out. No noise just no sound at all. Randomly comes back sometimes for days at a time. Very frequent sometimes and then not for a while.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Pseudonym said:


> The issue above seems to have fixed itself (for the most part) but now I get the left side just cutting out. No noise just no sound at all. Randomly comes back sometimes for days at a time. Very frequent sometimes and then not for a while.


This might be obvious, but does anything change if you wiggle any of the RCA plug outlets on the MS-8?


----------



## GCVIC

What kind of mobile device will give me the best sound quality utilizing the jbl ms8 auxiliary inputs? I have an iPhone 5s, but I don't think the Bluetooth to my OEM or the headphone out is ideal.

I was also looking at the Fiio x5 using flac (https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B00I4Q9S32?ref=olp_product_details) I read about some successes with that device on the forum - would that improve my situation noticeably? 

Aftermarket head unit is not straight forward because I have a 2010 genesis coupe with premium stereo, navigation and auto climate control. So I am try to explore ways to use the jbl ms8 aux inputs.

Thanks


----------



## Pseudonym

t3sn4f2 said:


> This might be obvious, but does anything change if you wiggle any of the RCA plug outlets on the MS-8?


I wish. I'm gonna swap the rca's at some point to rule them out.


----------



## t3sn4f2

GCVIC said:


> What kind of mobile device will give me the best sound quality utilizing the jbl ms8 auxiliary inputs? I have an iPhone 5s, but I don't think the Bluetooth to my OEM or the headphone out is ideal.
> 
> I was also looking at the Fiio x5 using flac (https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B00I4Q9S32?ref=olp_product_details) I read about some successes with that device on the forum - would that improve my situation noticeably?
> 
> Aftermarket head unit is not straight forward because I have a 2010 genesis coupe with premium stereo, navigation and auto climate control. So I am try to explore ways to use the jbl ms8 aux inputs.
> 
> Thanks


The headphone output on the iphone 5/5s is excellent by any standard, and the 6 is even better.

iPhone 5 Audio Quality Measurements

"Summary: 

Confirming what I hear with critical listening, the iPhone 5 is a wonderful high-fidelity audio source. While publications funded mostly by advertisements from makers of expensive cables, power conditioners and outboard DACs don't want you to know this, the iPhone 5 is a better audio source than most DACs will be when connected to a computer or CD transport. The only difference is that the iPhone has a level 6 dB lower than a proper CD player, but the iPhone still has more output at 1 V full-scale than some outboard audiophile DACs! (Stereophile wrote that "The iPod's measured behavior is better than many CD players" back when the iPod first came out and was only considered as a toy and not as a better player than most of the exotic fluff gear out today.)

The iPhone lacks a fan or hard drive, so it runs silently as it plays from its buffered solid-state memory.

The iPhone 5 has the additional benefits of being self-powered, so you have no ground loops as you will when using AC-powered gear or anything connected to a computer via a electrically conductive cable.

Ignore those who confuse the iPhone with crappy MP3 players; the iPhone has wonderful audio quality for serious music listening either directly with good or great headphones or plugged into the rest of your high fidelity system.

Enjoy your iPhone!"

Apple iPhone 6 Plus Review

MY iphone 5 measurement results:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/138160-iphone-5-analog-output-measurements.html

The only issue you might run across is a 1 volt max output level versus the typical 2 volts. And that is only an issue if the amp you are using needs that much gain to give you an inaudible noise floor for your system and listening preference. There might also be a ground loop issue if you are charging the iphone from a power source that is not grounded near the ms-8, but probably not since the phone's battery will do a good job of isolating its output.

Plus if you keep the iphone you will be able to control and display its media from the oe head unit while at the same time running the clean head phone output into the ms-8 aux in . You just might have to select the head phone output in the media over the BT each time you connect.


----------



## Elgrosso

t3sn4f2 said:


> The headphone output on the iphone 5/5s is excellent by any standard, and the 6 is even better.
> 
> iPhone 5 Audio Quality Measurements
> 
> "Summary:
> 
> Confirming what I hear with critical listening, the iPhone 5 is a wonderful high-fidelity audio source. While publications funded mostly by advertisements from makers of expensive cables, power conditioners and outboard DACs don't want you to know this, the iPhone 5 is a better audio source than most DACs will be when connected to a computer or CD transport. The only difference is that the iPhone has a level 6 dB lower than a proper CD player, but the iPhone still has more output at 1 V full-scale than some outboard audiophile DACs! (Stereophile wrote that "The iPod's measured behavior is better than many CD players" back when the iPod first came out and was only considered as a toy and not as a better player than most of the exotic fluff gear out today.)
> 
> The iPhone lacks a fan or hard drive, so it runs silently as it plays from its buffered solid-state memory.
> 
> The iPhone 5 has the additional benefits of being self-powered, so you have no ground loops as you will when using AC-powered gear or anything connected to a computer via a electrically conductive cable.
> 
> Ignore those who confuse the iPhone with crappy MP3 players; the iPhone has wonderful audio quality for serious music listening either directly with good or great headphones or plugged into the rest of your high fidelity system.
> 
> Enjoy your iPhone!"
> 
> Apple iPhone 6 Plus Review
> 
> MY iphone 5 measurement results:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/138160-iphone-5-analog-output-measurements.html
> 
> The only issue you might run across is a 1 volt max output level versus the typical 2 volts. And that is only an issue if the amp you are using needs that much gain to give you an inaudible noise floor for your system and listening preference. There might also be a ground loop issue if you are charging the iphone from a power source that is not grounded near the ms-8, but probably not since the phone's battery will do a good job of isolating its output.
> 
> Plus if you keep the iphone you will be able to control and display its media from the oe head unit while at the same time running the clean head phone output into the ms-8 aux in . You just might have to select the head phone output in the media over the BT each time you connect.


Really nice post t3sn4f2!
I can just confirm everything, used iphone 4/5/6 for years with first jack to rca, then a/v pin to rca cable to ms8, it was not only fine but good. Just a bit messy to have the phone around with cables etc. And yes the 1v thing to manage, but I just increased the aux input.
But with a proper voltage it gets better (not comparing dacs here).
Once the istreamer 12v was in the loop it sounded better with the ms8.
Even if sometime it clipped.


----------



## AStephan

Is it possible to change crossover settings without going through the whole setup?

Sorry if this has been covered.


----------



## thehatedguy

Nope


----------



## MrGreen83

Lol think everyone should just pass on the MS-8. Go Audison Bit 10, Bit One, Helix, Mosconi. Anybody other than this 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DDfusion

Heck no. Get this this right and it trumps


----------



## GCVIC

Elgrosso said:


> Really nice post t3sn4f2!
> I can just confirm everything, used iphone 4/5/6 for years with first jack to rca, then a/v pin to rca cable to ms8, it was not only fine but good. Just a bit messy to have the phone around with cables etc. And yes the 1v thing to manage, but I just increased the aux input.
> But with a proper voltage it gets better (not comparing dacs here).
> Once the istreamer 12v was in the loop it sounded better with the ms8.
> Even if sometime it clipped.


Thanks, appreciate the comments!


----------



## MrGreen83

Out of all the reviews I've read, the Audison DSP's have had the least "gripes" or complaints. Easy simple UI. And works like a charm. Not to mention the ability to go full DA (with the right amps). 

Of course you'll have people that will say going Full Digital and having less distortion is something that only certain people can hear. But I'll take that. I don't need to hear it, it just makes me feel better knowing I have it lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FordEscape

MrGreen83 said:


> Lol think everyone should just pass on the MS-8. Go Audison Bit 10, Bit One, Helix, Mosconi. Anybody other than this





MrGreen83 said:


> Out of all the reviews I've read, the Audison DSP's have had the least "gripes" or complaints. Easy simple UI. And works like a charm. Not to mention the ability to go full DA (with the right amps).
> 
> Of course you'll have people that will say going Full Digital and having less distortion is something that only certain people can hear. But I'll take that. I don't need to hear it, it just makes me feel better knowing I have it lol


Noted, now back to the topic of this thread .....


----------



## thehatedguy

Letely that might be the case, but I think the Helix has taken the Audison's place though.

But when it came out, they had their fair share of issues.

The main things about the Audison is the graphic EQs over parametric.




MrGreen83 said:


> Out of all the reviews I've read, the Audison DSP's have had the least "gripes" or complaints. Easy simple UI. And works like a charm. Not to mention the ability to go full DA (with the right amps).
> 
> Of course you'll have people that will say going Full Digital and having less distortion is something that only certain people can hear. But I'll take that. I don't need to hear it, it just makes me feel better knowing I have it lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## naiku

MrGreen83 said:


> Lol think everyone should just pass on the MS-8. Go Audison Bit 10, Bit One, Helix, Mosconi. Anybody other than this


Curious what you don't like about the MS8, I had one and loved it. In some ways regret selling it.



MrGreen83 said:


> the Audison DSP's have had the least "gripes" or complaints. Easy simple UI.


I have a BitOne now, while I like the ability to manually tune it (one of the 2 reasons I sold the MS8) the UI, at least the Windows software, could do with an update. Having to change the resolution on my laptop to use it is ridiculous, phase adjustments in 0 or 180 only, the time delay piece is odd in that I cannot enter my own values but have to use the up/down buttons etc.


----------



## GCVIC

t3sn4f2 said:


> The headphone output on the iphone 5/5s is excellent by any standard, and the 6 is even better.
> 
> iPhone 5 Audio Quality Measurements
> 
> "Summary:
> 
> Confirming what I hear with critical listening, the iPhone 5 is a wonderful high-fidelity audio source. While publications funded mostly by advertisements from makers of expensive cables, power conditioners and outboard DACs don't want you to know this, the iPhone 5 is a better audio source than most DACs will be when connected to a computer or CD transport. The only difference is that the iPhone has a level 6 dB lower than a proper CD player, but the iPhone still has more output at 1 V full-scale than some outboard audiophile DACs! (Stereophile wrote that "The iPod's measured behavior is better than many CD players" back when the iPod first came out and was only considered as a toy and not as a better player than most of the exotic fluff gear out today.)
> 
> The iPhone lacks a fan or hard drive, so it runs silently as it plays from its buffered solid-state memory.
> 
> The iPhone 5 has the additional benefits of being self-powered, so you have no ground loops as you will when using AC-powered gear or anything connected to a computer via a electrically conductive cable.
> 
> Ignore those who confuse the iPhone with crappy MP3 players; the iPhone has wonderful audio quality for serious music listening either directly with good or great headphones or plugged into the rest of your high fidelity system.
> 
> Enjoy your iPhone!"
> 
> Apple iPhone 6 Plus Review
> 
> MY iphone 5 measurement results:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/138160-iphone-5-analog-output-measurements.html
> 
> The only issue you might run across is a 1 volt max output level versus the typical 2 volts. And that is only an issue if the amp you are using needs that much gain to give you an inaudible noise floor for your system and listening preference. There might also be a ground loop issue if you are charging the iphone from a power source that is not grounded near the ms-8, but probably not since the phone's battery will do a good job of isolating its output.
> 
> Plus if you keep the iphone you will be able to control and display its media from the oe head unit while at the same time running the clean head phone output into the ms-8 aux in . You just might have to select the head phone output in the media over the BT each time you connect.



Thanks again for this. I was going to split the 3.5 output jack to two rcas, then run a cable back to the ms8 in my trunk - is this the best method? Also, Do you recommend coax or twisted rca cable from iPhone 5s headphone out to jbl-ms8 aux input?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Elgrosso said:


> Really nice post t3sn4f2!
> I can just confirm everything, used iphone 4/5/6 for years with first jack to rca, then a/v pin to rca cable to ms8, it was not only fine but good. Just a bit messy to have the phone around with cables etc. And yes the 1v thing to manage, but I just increased the aux input.
> But with a proper voltage it gets better (not comparing dacs here).
> Once the istreamer 12v was in the loop it sounded better with the ms8.
> Even if sometime it clipped.


Good to know it has worked fine through several iphone versions.


----------



## i_theo

kaigoss69 said:


> Actually, ... If you can't get the sub integrated with the front stage that way, try the 3-way front. That's how I have it set up and it sounds the best. Many others have had success that way too. MS-8 does a better job EQ'ing the sub sweeps that way plus T/A is used.





kaigoss69 said:


> Works just fine. In fact a lot of people have had better sub/midbass integration using this method.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yeah, this avoids the subwoofer level setting part of the algorithm which is easily confused by some subwoofer arrangements.


Sorry .. it that what is called *Kaigoss69 Method* for Mid and Sub Integration in MS8 ?
So the Subwoofer signal will trigger by MidBass ?


----------



## t3sn4f2

GCVIC said:


> Thanks again for this. I was going to split the 3.5 output jack to two rcas, then run a cable back to the ms8 in my trunk - is this the best method? Also, Do you recommend coax or twisted rca cable from iPhone 5s headphone out to jbl-ms8 aux input?


Sorry, I missed this post. Yes, it's better to split to RCA nearest the headphone jack and make the run with RCA's. I really don't think the type of RCA is going to matter, as long as it is of good quality and has some type of shielding.


----------



## DDfusion

They have 3.5mm to L/R RCAs


----------



## t3sn4f2

DDfusion said:


> They have 3.5mm to L/R RCAs


Yup, though I would only use those if you know for sure that they won't break over time in the car. Because then you'll not only have to replace a more expensive cable but have to go through the trouble of pulling it out and re-running it. I've broken a few, and that was before they started putting them on the bottom of the iPhone.

I'd go with a rugged high quality right angle mini jack to female RCA extension. Just long enough to be able to hide the RCA end in the dash. Or a car dock with mini jack out. On that one I might consider using a single mini jack to RCA cable. But even then you never know if it could get damaged somehow since the dock connection will probably be exposed to the cabin somewhere.


----------



## GCVIC

t3sn4f2 said:


> Yup, though I would only use those if you know for sure that they won't break over time in the car. Because then you'll not only have to replace a more expensive cable but have to go through the trouble of pulling it out and re-running it. I've broken a few, and that was before they started putting them on the bottom of the iPhone.
> 
> I'd go with a rugged high quality right angle mini jack to female RCA extension. Just long enough to be able to hide the RCA end in the dash. Or a car dock with mini jack out. On that one I might consider using a single mini jack to RCA cable. But even then you never know if it could get damaged somehow since the dock connection will probably be exposed to the cabin somewhere.


I was looking at something like this: http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applicati...&utm_medium=transactional&utm_campaign=CANLET

What do you think?


----------



## kaigoss69

i_theo said:


> Sorry .. it that what is called *Kaigoss69 Method* for Mid and Sub Integration in MS8 ?
> So the Subwoofer signal will trigger by MidBass ?


Actually the mod piggy-backs the sub signal off of the mid-bass signal. But if you have the available channels to run a 3-way front, do it, it works better!


----------



## t3sn4f2

GCVIC said:


> I was looking at something like this: http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applicati...&utm_medium=transactional&utm_campaign=CANLET
> 
> What do you think?


It _looks_ ok?, but I can't say for sure just from a pic and specs. You really don't know how well these cable perform and hold up until you hear from many people that have used them. I'd look around here in the pro install thread, and see what type they are using these days. Then go to the manufacturer and see if they make the verity you need. 

Or just give that one a try, it's cheap enough. But as I mentioned in my earlier post, I'd seriously consider a right angle mini jack to rca extension that you plug into a permanently mounted cable run in the dash. You should have a lot more options to choose from that way since not many people make extra long mini jack to rcas like the one you linked.


----------



## GCVIC

t3sn4f2 said:


> It _looks_ ok?, but I can't say for sure just from a pic and specs. You really don't know how well these cable perform and hold up until you hear from many people that have used them. I'd look around here in the pro install thread, and see what type they are using these days. Then go to the manufacturer and see if they make the verity you need.
> 
> Or just give that one a try, it's cheap enough. But as I mentioned in my earlier post, I'd seriously consider a right angle mini jack to rca extension that you plug into a permanently mounted cable run in the dash. You should have a lot more options to choose from that way since not many people make extra long mini jack to rcas like the one you linked.


I ordered this cable a few days ago, and will try it out once it arrives, as its relatively cheap. I am particularly interested in the difference between my current iPhone to bluetooth connection versus this new direct connect iPhone to jbl ms8 aux.

But for a longer term solution, I'm going to seriously look into the right angle mini jack option, and also read up on the pro install thread. Thanks for your advice!


----------



## Elgrosso

You can also try this: Apple Composite AV Cable MC748ZM/A B&H Photo Video

Depends of the way you use the phone, where it's placed etc.
But this will keep it powered, and send higher voltage.
You'll need a lightning to 30 pins adapter though, so the phone dac might not be used (there is one in the adapter). So not cheap, but simpler, and maybe better for long term?
Or just install an rca extension going to the cabin? So you can try a bunch of solutions.


----------



## BadSS

naiku said:


> Curious what you don't like about the MS8.


I've been installing car audio in my cars and friend's cars for over 35-years. I was taking apart and ordering home audio speakers in cars and making custom crossovers for these applications for about the same length of time. I modified coaxial speakers by adding 2nd order crossovers to them (huge improvement). I ran a center channel speaker array back around 1987 to help “center” the imagery, but not until around 2006 when I started running active with time-delay did I finally end up with a car audio system that fit my expectations with a perfect blend of presence and tonal quality. It took a couple weeks back in 2006 to get things “perfect”,, but I never thought it sounded bad at any time during the tuning process. It started out sounding pretty good (chose drivers requiring very little equalization) and things just got a little better every week until I got it sounding near perfect on any and every type music and song I threw at it (assuming a decent recording).

Fast forward to a new car, using the same amps and drivers, saddled with a stock deck due to the HVAC integration. Added a LOC and electronic crossover and thought everything sounded pretty good. I needed time alignment and a little equalization to “get it right”. So I get this boner of the board MS-8 and end up playing around with it for MANY, MANY hours over a couple of months just to get it to sound half-way decent with the processor defeated on maybe a third of my favorite songs. The only thing I can say good about it is it does put the bass upfront and the imagery is dead center – it just sounds terrible in my car while doing it. I absolute despise the thing and can’t wait to swap it for another processor. 

Reasons I do not like it:

The only way I can stand listening to it is with the processor defeated and even then it does not sound as good as a $10 LOC and $60 electronic crossover I was running before buying this thing (probably because I could overlap the crossover frequencies and it had a center out channel).

Past experience indicated there is a bit of a drop in the response of my front door speakers around 2.5K - there is no ability to overlap crossover points or vary slopes between the speakers to compensate for it. I guess the fix might be to buy a tweeter that can be crossed lower or a mid-bass that can play higher, but I could sell this MS-8 and buy another processor for less money. Plus that wouldn’t fix the other issues.

With the processor “on” it appears the auto-tune is “over boosting” a bit of a null to the point of MASSIVE distortion even at moderate levels around those frequencies and I can’t EQ it out after the fact. I’ve run the set-up over and over without much if any difference in the sound or distortion. I can run it in the “defeated” mode and there’s no distortion, just a bit of a void, but it’s not that bad and I can “fix it” to a degree with manual equalization. I’d try upping the crossover point, running the “set-up”, then re-adjust the crossover points. However, you can’t change the crossover points without re-running the set-up - I should list that as another reason to hate this thing.

There is a severe lack of definition at low to moderate levels using the stock radio volume to control the system. In order not to lose definition when playing at lower levels you HAVE to use the remote to operate the volume. It sounds considerably better to me with the radio volume set to “max un-distorted” and using the remote for volume than it does to have the MS-8 set to maximum and using the radio volume to lower the sound. I DO NOT want to mess around with a remote while driving - that alone would have been a deal breaker if I had known this.

I also HAVE to use the remote to turn down the MS-8 or I get a power-off pop. I have heard the “fix” is to rig something to make sure the amps power down before the MS-8. Never-ever had a “thump off” problem with ANY other in-line electronic device since somewhere around the early 90s. The $60 electronic crossover was fine - lol

Anyway, based on the majority of responses from people happy with the MS-8,, it apparently works for many, maybe most. However, the MS-8 absolutely doesn’t fit my needs and/or "work" in my car.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

My sound was terrible and I had a turn-on pop. I adjusted the gains up...retuned and it was great.

The only time I've ever had problems is when gains weren't properly matched.

When that happens, areas do get over-boosted trying to compensate and then it runs out of headroom to boost. So you end up with a portion of the system auto tuned incorrectly and it's a hot mess.

Why didn't you use the hi level input instead of the LOC?


----------



## BadSS

I800C0LLECT said:


> My sound was terrible and I had a turn-on pop. I adjusted the gains up...retuned and it was great.
> 
> The only time I've ever had problems is when gains weren't properly matched.
> 
> When that happens, areas do get over-boosted trying to compensate and then it runs out of headroom to boost. So you end up with a portion of the system auto tuned incorrectly and it's a hot mess.
> 
> Why didn't you use the hi level input instead of the LOC?


I am using the hi-level input for the MS-8 - the LOC was for the original electronic crossover. 

I don't have a turn on pop, just a turn off pop.

I followed this thread and tried every trick listed up until I gave up on it after around 300 pages.

I appreciate the input and I do believe the distortion "over boost" has something to do with the tweeters not being to play low enough for the mid-bass or the mid-bass not being able to play high enough for the tweeters. If that was my only issue with it, I'd just get different tweeters able to play around 2K.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

My bad...mine was a turn off pop too. I recalibrated mine since I got home and wanted to try different crossover points. So I did and accidentally messed up my gains without knowing. I had to reset the digital portion on my ms amps.

After gains were fixed, setup was a breeze. In my initial install I had this issue too, including an erratic RCA also making it go haywire. Zero issues since

Sorry about your luck

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## Lord Raven

kaigoss69 said:


> I hope you're not still looking for 2V *output*, when I told you weeks ago that it is the *input* setting that needs to be 2V.
> 
> Regarding pop, are you using the high-level inputs? That's what caused it for me. You can get rid of it by making the remote wire turn the MS-8 off last (after the amps).


I'm not looking for it anymore. By input, you mean that MS8 getting signal from HU? I think it sets the level by itself during CD playback, when you see Ok message. 

How do I turn off MS8 last? I'm not using high level inputs.


----------



## GCVIC

Elgrosso said:


> Really nice post t3sn4f2!
> I can just confirm everything, used iphone 4/5/6 for years with first jack to rca, then a/v pin to rca cable to ms8, it was not only fine but good. Just a bit messy to have the phone around with cables etc. And yes the 1v thing to manage, but I just increased the aux input.
> But with a proper voltage it gets better (not comparing dacs here).
> Once the istreamer 12v was in the loop it sounded better with the ms8.
> Even if sometime it clipped.


I have done more reading and it seems iPhone 5s--> iStreamer --> jbl ms8 aux is a good way to go. Still interested in any other options/feedback but I otherwise really appreciate all the advice you've all given.


----------



## Elgrosso

GCVIC said:


> I have done more reading and it seems iPhone 5s--> iStreamer --> jbl ms8 aux is a good way to go. Still interested in any other options/feedback but I otherwise really appreciate all the advice you've all given.


I tried a bunch for analog out, the ms8 remote is cool but I still wanted a knob so (don't remember all the details):
- nuforce icon ido: too big, and needed 6.5v 
- audioengine d1: needed a usb hub to work, so too cumbersome
- apogee one: even bigger, but big cool knob, sounds nice (kept it for office setup)
- Beyerdynamic A200p: flat knob was cool, super small so can go anywhere, but sound not so good
- istreamer 12v: best of all for in car, powers the phone, easy and reliable, but no knob. Volume is still adjustable on phone (even if it send digital), so at max it can send too high voltage to ms8.


----------



## Pseudonym

so im writing another post about noise. has anyone ever sent one of these out to be looked over and possibly repaired with good results?


----------



## kaigoss69

GCVIC said:


> I have done more reading and it seems iPhone 5s--> iStreamer --> jbl ms8 aux is a good way to go. Still interested in any other options/feedback but I otherwise really appreciate all the advice you've all given.


That's what I'm doing. Another option would be iPhone -> IconIDO-> DAC -> MS-8 Aux. I had the IconIDO and I think it sounded better than the iStreamer. Should have never sold it.


----------



## Elgrosso

kaigoss69 said:


> That's what I'm doing. Another option would be iPhone -> IconIDO-> DAC -> MS-8 Aux. I had the IconIDO and I think it sounded better than the iStreamer. Should have never sold it.


Really? I received a PSU for the iDo but didn't try yet.
And why another DAC in between?

Anyway I might sell it soon because I played with a peachtree x1 since few days, it works perfectly and is small enough to be hidden behind the dash (just need to take the time...)


----------



## PorkCereal

I reinstalled my amps and ms8 over the weekend relocating some of them, and once i reinstalled my ms8, i am getting a static or hiss noise coming over my sub channel. I didn't have this when i unhooked everything. 

I swapped RCA's and no change, ran my RCA directly to my phone to the amp and no noise. So its coming from the ms8, and only to the sub. Changing the Ms8 volume doesn't seem to change the level. RCAs are not near power or any wires.

I pressed the reset button a few times and held it hoping that would work. Ran the setup a few times and no help. When i get in the car i hear the beep for the ms8 to power up over the sub then the hiss begins.

Im sure its something simple im missing but havent figured it out yet. Any ideas?


----------



## billw

Do you have an open output on the MS8? Maybe something is wrong with that particular output.


----------



## kaigoss69

Elgrosso said:


> Really? I received a PSU for the iDo but didn't try yet.
> And why another DAC in between?
> 
> Anyway I might sell it soon because I played with a peachtree x1 since few days, it works perfectly and is small enough to be hidden behind the dash (just need to take the time...)


Because the analog output defaults to 50% volume level every time the unit is turned off and on again. From what I hear, this does not happen with the digital output.


----------



## Elgrosso

kaigoss69 said:


> Because the analog output defaults to 50% volume level every time the unit is turned off and on again. From what I hear, this does not happen with the digital output.


Annoying, well this + few other constrains like the size, the power needed, and the fact that it does not always charge the phone > not so good candidate for me.


----------



## PorkCereal

billw said:


> Do you have an open output on the MS8? Maybe something is wrong with that particular output.


No, not unless i want to give up something. I'll try to reassign the channels and see if the noise moves. Could the ms8 be boosting the sub channel and the si bm mk4 is just sensitive enough to pick it up where my sundown sd3 wasn't? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


----------



## billw

I have no idea about the subwoofer. Do you still have the sundown that you can put back in the system temporarily to see if the noise appears with it now too?


----------



## kaigoss69

Elgrosso said:


> Annoying, well this + few other constrains like the size, the power needed, and the fact that it does not always charge the phone > not so good candidate for me.


Let me know if you wanna sell it LOL.


----------



## DDfusion

Mine has this new thing. The display will restart itself everytime a 50hz tone hits. It's fine. I just stuck it in the glove box


----------



## PorkCereal

I changed the output from channel 8 to channel 1 and 2. As i now have 2 subs. No change. Even tried to setup as a 3 way and no luck. Still the same noise that follows the sub outputs. Bypass the ms8 and go rca to phone, and its clear.


----------



## DDfusion

Try the MS-8 Aux. it may just be ford noise. If it is try putting a relay on the remote wire going into the MS-8


----------



## PorkCereal

DDfusion said:


> Try the MS-8 Aux. it may just be ford noise. If it is try putting a relay on the remote wire going into the MS-8


I will try that. The noise doesn't only happen at boot up, it stays on as long as the ms8 is on or the rcas are plugged in. And it isn't slight it's loud enough to hear from the front of the car, but it does soften after music plays.


----------



## Elgrosso

kaigoss69 said:


> Let me know if you wanna sell it LOL.


Sure, if so it will be in few weeks.


----------



## GCVIC

GCVIC said:


> I was looking at something like this: http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applicati...&utm_medium=transactional&utm_campaign=CANLET
> 
> What do you think?


Connecting directly to jblms8 with this 3.5 to rca cable made a significant improvement compared to connecting via Bluetooth through OEM head unit. I'm still considering Istreamer v12, but I'm happy in short term.


----------



## t3sn4f2

GCVIC said:


> Connecting directly to jblms8 with this 3.5 to rca cable made a significant improvement compared to connecting via Bluetooth through OEM head unit. I'm still considering Istreamer v12, but I'm happy in short term.


Good to hear. Another option is to get a quality USB single DIN head unit and mount it near the MS-8. Then run a steering wheel controller to the front. You'll be limited in functionality to stuff like volume, preset up/down/ answering/hanging up, etc. But you'll gain other cool features like being able to feed your head unit output into it's AUX input, HD radio, handfrees BT, source select, near processor mounting for better S/N ratio and less chance of ground loops.

If you really want to get creative you can mod the face plate and remotely mount it in a dash cubby somewhere.

I suggest a Pioneer 80PRS. It's has very high end internals in a not so flashy case in order to keep the price down. You could probably find one for a little more than what an iStreamer will cost you.


----------



## Pseudonym

Pseudonym said:


> has anyone ever sent one of these out to be looked over and possibly repaired with good results?


Any suggestions?


----------



## instalher

hey guys channel 6 rca is now dead on my ms8, I was running two 4 channel amps, with tweets, mids, midbass and sub, can I have front left and right rca from my deack to the input to the ms8, then use the ms8 power for my tweeters, and 3 inch drivers, then run rca outputs ch 1 2 3 4 to my mid and sub amp? just don't know if the ms8 will give ac current out of the speaker leads as well as the rcas, What would solve my problem is if I could use channel 7 rca out as a bandpass output from the ms-8, so I could have ch 5 and ch 7 running the midbass from 50 to 300hz than ch.8 as a sub channel. now that would be splendid.. lol.. please advise.


----------



## GCVIC

Is there any difference between using channels 1 & 2 input versus the aux input? or are they basically the same?
Thanks


----------



## 14642

GCVIC said:


> Is there any difference between using channels 1 & 2 input versus the aux input? or are they basically the same?
> Thanks


The aux input is unaffected by the input setup EQ.


----------



## GCVIC

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The aux input is unaffected by the input setup EQ.


Hi and thank you, Andy. Could you please elaborate on what you mean by 'input setup eq?'


----------



## kaigoss69

GCVIC said:


> Hi and thank you, Andy. Could you please elaborate on what you mean by 'input setup eq?'


Come on man, read the manual!


----------



## newnick

If I disconnect my battery will I lose the tune on the MS8?


----------



## Lord Raven

newnick said:


> If I disconnect my battery will I lose the tune on the MS8?


No! Unless your unit is faulty, I have heard of some units that lose memory but they had other problems.


----------



## newnick

Thank You


----------



## Lanson

My ol' trusty unit from 2010 is about to be put into service again! 









tucks right in, of course I still need to build a hide panel


----------



## ryanougrad

Just installed an MS-8 and have questions. I'm running a JL HD900/5 and Hd600/4. Both amps have a switchable input voltage, Switchable from 200 mV - 2 V RMS (Low) to 800 mV - 8 V RMS (High). So, 1st question, should I set the amps at low or high voltage? 

Then I know Andy has addressed this, but he mentions just setting gains at roughly 2v. So if amps are switched to low, this means gains all the way down correct? If set to high, then gains will be almost full up correct? I have a DMM if need be. 

Right now I have the 900/5 pushing sub, mids and tweets. input voltages are set on high. Sub is about 1/3 on gain and tweets mids both at 1/2. With sub gains at half it overpowered everything.

I have the 600/5 on low input, gains about half, slight hiss in the midbass. I had the amp set on high with gains at slightly below half and they disappeared. This amp is using a Y-cable (one RCA off ms8 channel to y-cable in on amp) cable for each channel and each channel is bridged to the mid-bass. 

Right now the mid-bass and lows dominate and the stage is narrow and vocals are center to me as driver and not dash. 

I just had dash pods installed by JT and mid-bass is in doors. Sub is in back (SUV).


----------



## dengland

Been working with the MS-8 for awhile (signature has a link to a more detailed thread).

I recently attempted some retuning and concentrated greatly on getting the levels set for each of the drivers.

There was some differences between left and right levels so on the latest attempt a averaged the left and the rights and looked for the crossover points to use.



I chose 67Hz for the low/mid cross and 300 for the mid/hi cross. I did not expect it to be measurably different from the other crossover combos I have tried and it wasn't. Same strange boost from 300Hz to 1KHz.



I just don't quite get why the resultant tune would look like it does.

Running and Active 3-way Front stage. The outputs are assigned as follows:

1 Dash Left (FL Hi)
2 Door Front Left (FL Mid)
3 Sub (FL Lo)
4 Dash Right (FR Hi)
5 Door Front Right (FR Mid)
6 Door Rear Left (SL)
7 Door Rear Right (SR)
8 Sub (FR Lo)

Front HP: 20Hz/6dB slope
Low / Mid Cross: 67Hz/24dB slope
Mid / High Cross: 300Hz/24dB slope
Side Hi Pass: 100Hz/24dB slope
MS-8 Level during calibration: -35 

Lo is a single 10" in a sealed enclosure
Mids are a 6.5" Silver Flutes in the lower doors
Highs are 3.5" 2 ways in the dash (Alpine 3012)

Sides are driven by the MS-8. Rest have external amps.


----------



## kaigoss69

The midrange peak can be eq'ed out I would think. Not sure what would cause it. Other area of concern is suckout at 70-150Hz. Have you tried reversing polarity of the subs? Work on that first, as it may be robbing processing power from the MS-8.



dengland said:


> Been working with the MS-8 for awhile (signature has a link to a more detailed thread).
> 
> I recently attempted some retuning and concentrated greatly on getting the levels set for each of the drivers.
> 
> There was some differences between left and right levels so on the latest attempt a averaged the left and the rights and looked for the crossover points to use.
> 
> 
> 
> I chose 67Hz for the low/mid cross and 300 for the mid/hi cross. I did not expect it to be measurably different from the other crossover combos I have tried and it wasn't. Same strange boost from 300Hz to 1KHz.
> 
> 
> 
> I just don't quite get why the resultant tune would look like it does.
> 
> Running and Active 3-way Front stage. The outputs are assigned as follows:
> 
> 1 Dash Left (FL Hi)
> 2 Door Front Left (FL Mid)
> 3 Sub (FL Lo)
> 4 Dash Right (FR Hi)
> 5 Door Front Right (FR Mid)
> 6 Door Rear Left (SL)
> 7 Door Rear Right (SR)
> 8 Sub (FR Lo)
> 
> Front HP: 20Hz/6dB slope
> Low / Mid Cross: 67Hz/24dB slope
> Mid / High Cross: 300Hz/24dB slope
> Side Hi Pass: 100Hz/24dB slope
> MS-8 Level during calibration: -35
> 
> Lo is a single 10" in a sealed enclosure
> Mids are a 6.5" Silver Flutes in the lower doors
> Highs are 3.5" 2 ways in the dash (Alpine 3012)
> 
> Sides are driven by the MS-8. Rest have external amps.


----------



## dengland

kaigoss69 said:


> The midrange peak can be eq'ed out I would think. Not sure what would cause it. Other area of concern is suckout at 70-150Hz. Have you tried reversing polarity of the subs? Work on that first, as it may be robbing processing power from the MS-8.


I had switched from a 3-way to a 2 way since posting with a sub/low cross @60Hz. 

RED trace is equivalent to what you commented on (no manual EQ applied). Swapping the sub phase resulted in steeper cut and a bigger suck out from 60Hz to 100Hz(GREEN trace). So, I don't think there is a phase issue with the sub. 



Staring at the data this AM for several additional measurements I made yesterday, I am bit confused about the graph below. 

RED is still the starting reference as above.

With the sub polarity swapped, disconnecting both doors (PURPLE) decreased levels above 60Hz, which makes sense based on a 60Hz/24dB cross.

Same for left door disconnected with the sub polarity swapped (BLUE), slightly less of a decrease above 60Hz then when both are disconnected.

However, with the Right door disconnected and sub polarity swapped (GREEN), levels are lower from 60Hz and lower.




I need to look at that again and make sure nothing else is going on.

On another note, Elgrosso I see you are in Jacksonville. My daughter is in JAX starting her senior year at UNF.


----------



## kaigoss69

Hmm, I'm thinking maybe you should have a look at the phase relationship of the mid bass drivers to each other, without the sub connected. Your analysis and methodology seems pretty thorough though, so you may have already done that...



dengland said:


> I had switched from a 3-way to a 2 way since posting with a sub/low cross @60Hz.
> 
> RED trace is equivalent to what you commented on (no manual EQ applied). Swapping the sub phase resulted in steeper cut and a bigger suck out from 60Hz to 100Hz(GREEN trace). So, I don't think there is a phase issue with the sub.
> 
> 
> 
> Staring at the data this AM for several additional measurements I made yesterday, I am bit confused about the graph below.
> 
> RED is still the starting reference as above.
> 
> With the sub polarity swapped, disconnecting both doors (PURPLE) decreased levels above 60Hz, which makes sense based on a 60Hz/24dB cross.
> 
> Same for left door disconnected with the sub polarity swapped (BLUE), slightly less of a decrease above 60Hz then when both are disconnected.
> 
> However, with the Right door disconnected and sub polarity swapped (GREEN), levels are lower from 60Hz and lower.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I need to look at that again and make sure nothing else is going on.
> 
> On another note, Elgrosso I see you are in Jacksonville. My daughter is in JAX starting her senior year at UNF.


----------



## kaigoss69

I was using those two amps with the MS-8 and I had input switches to LOW and gains for everything except sub always ended up between 11 to 1 o'clock (any higher and I would get hiss).



ryanougrad said:


> Just installed an MS-8 and have questions. I'm running a JL HD900/5 and Hd600/4. Both amps have a switchable input voltage, Switchable from 200 mV - 2 V RMS (Low) to 800 mV - 8 V RMS (High). So, 1st question, should I set the amps at low or high voltage?
> 
> Then I know Andy has addressed this, but he mentions just setting gains at roughly 2v. So if amps are switched to low, this means gains all the way down correct? If set to high, then gains will be almost full up correct? I have a DMM if need be.
> 
> Right now I have the 900/5 pushing sub, mids and tweets. input voltages are set on high. Sub is about 1/3 on gain and tweets mids both at 1/2. With sub gains at half it overpowered everything.
> 
> I have the 600/5 on low input, gains about half, slight hiss in the midbass. I had the amp set on high with gains at slightly below half and they disappeared. This amp is using a Y-cable (one RCA off ms8 channel to y-cable in on amp) cable for each channel and each channel is bridged to the mid-bass.
> 
> Right now the mid-bass and lows dominate and the stage is narrow and vocals are center to me as driver and not dash.
> 
> I just had dash pods installed by JT and mid-bass is in doors. Sub is in back (SUV).


----------



## Lanson

And my MS-8 is back in action!











I'll be building a hide-panel for this, but this is in-progress









Based on my REW measurements, I adjusted the 31 band EQ to get my target hybrid Hanasu/Steve/Jazzi curve. If I had to ***** about the MS-8 now that I am using REW to see things as they really are, it would be that the MS-8 auto-tune is ROUGH out of the box (at least on this build so far.)

This is the MS-8's calibration







and it did not sound too good.











About as good as I can get these factory speakers









The only bad thing is during this install, I jacked my MS-8 up cosmetically. The fitment had zero room for error and I errored some. The MS-8 scratches so quick!


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Very nice curve!

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## SQLnovice

@fourthmeal, if you ever have to remove the MS-8, maybe you might want to wrap it with some 3M wrap. I'm thinking of doing this with mine.


----------



## Lanson

I800C0LLECT said:


> Very nice curve!
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk



Thank you! I so wish the MS-8 could be unlocked into some sort of "pro" mode. I'd love for the MS-8 to do its own thing to get a response closer to MY target. That would give me a lot more headroom on the EQ to tweak.


----------



## Lanson

SQLnovice said:


> @fourthmeal, if you ever have to remove the MS-8, maybe you might want to wrap it with some 3M wrap. I'm thinking of doing this with mine.


That's flipping brilliant.

My scratches are in the plexi top part, mostly. But a quick filler and wrap-job would work for that too.


----------



## dengland

kaigoss69 said:


> Hmm, I'm thinking maybe you should have a look at the phase relationship of the mid bass drivers to each other, without the sub connected. Your analysis and methodology seems pretty thorough though, so you may have already done that...


I think I did that yesterday... Here is what I did this morning.

I found front right door disconnected this morning. Not sure how that happened. But I tried a few more things after swapping the sub phase last night. 

Anyway, the RED curve is no alterations to the phases. All phases as intended. It looks quite a bit better than what I had been seeing. Swapping the phase on the RIGHT door (GREEN Trace) creates a big suckout at the crossover frequency of 60Hz. Swapping the phase of the LEFT door (BLUE trace) did not have the same dramatic effect.


----------



## dengland

kaigoss69 said:


> Hmm, I'm thinking maybe you should have a look at the phase relationship of the mid bass drivers to each other, without the sub connected. Your analysis and methodology seems pretty thorough though, so you may have already done that...


No sub connected. Sub / Mid cross is at 60Hz/24dB slope. GREEN line is mids with the same phase (actually both are reversed from normal as an artifact of previous testing).

BLUE line is with the mids out of phase with one another. So, looks like my mids are connected correctly with respect to phase between the two.



Restored the mids to their original phases and the 200-400 "W" dip in the GREEN trace above goes away. GOLD trace has the sub connected again as a reference point.



I decided the extreme drop from 60-80Hz is at least partially because of the LPF on the sub amp being set too low. I opened it up to 125Hz.

*It looks more like it may be a modal issue to me now. *

In the picture below the sub gain is slightly higher with the LPF set @ 125Hz. Sub/Mid crossed at 80Hz/24dB. I measured the response at 3 different locations in the truck cab. (i.e., Driver's seat, Passenger's Seat, and mic on the Center Console between the two seats)



The GREEN trace from the passenger seat is more uniform other than that ugly null at 65Hz.

Without control of individual speaker phase delays and gains, it looks like I have reached the end of the road with what I can do with the MS-8. I cannot seem to get rid of 25dB swings in the frequency response.

Am I interpreting this correctly?


----------



## kaigoss69

I would expect the nulls to move depending on location, and it honestly doesn't look too bad to me. Are you using the "front" setting, or "driver"? If you're using "front" I would switch to "driver" and remeasure from the driver's seat.

The swings aren't 25dB, you want the sub to be about 10 dB louder than the mid bass, at least that's what the algorithm is trying to achieve. Anything within 10dB you should be able to EQ out.



dengland said:


> No sub connected. Sub / Mid cross is at 60Hz/24dB slope. GREEN line is mids with the same phase (actually both are reversed from normal as an artifact of previous testing).
> 
> BLUE line is with the mids out of phase with one another. So, looks like my mids are connected correctly with respect to phase between the two.
> 
> 
> 
> Restored the mids to their original phases and the 200-400 "W" dip in the GREEN trace above goes away. GOLD trace has the sub connected again as a reference point.
> 
> 
> 
> I decided the extreme drop from 60-80Hz is at least partially because of the LPF on the sub amp being set too low. I opened it up to 125Hz.
> 
> *It looks more like it may be a modal issue to me now. *
> 
> In the picture below the sub gain is slightly higher with the LPF set @ 125Hz. Sub/Mid crossed at 80Hz/24dB. I measured the response at 3 different locations in the truck cab. (i.e., Driver's seat, Passenger's Seat, and mic on the Center Console between the two seats)
> 
> 
> 
> The GREEN trace from the passenger seat is more uniform other than that ugly null at 65Hz.
> 
> Without control of individual speaker phase delays and gains, it looks like I have reached the end of the road with what I can do with the MS-8. I cannot seem to get rid of 25dB swings in the frequency response.
> 
> Am I interpreting this correctly?


----------



## Elgrosso

dengland said:


> ...
> 
> Without control of individual speaker phase delays and gains, it looks like I have reached the end of the road with what I can do with the MS-8. I cannot seem to get rid of 25dB swings in the frequency response.
> 
> Am I interpreting this correctly?


How did you take all these last measurements?
It says 7-2 avg, are they average of 7 + 2 sweeps per ear for different driver/passenger/center positions for the same tune?
It’s not clear if you measured each time a different tune for each position or not.

I can’t understand why you would have 20/25db deviation after the ms8, especially in 1/6 smoothing.
5 or 10db ok but not more (see previous fourthmeal's curve).

Also, playing with driver polarity should not help, the ms8 would fix that anyway (at least it always did in my car).
But sometime it’s needed with the sub (longer delay?).


----------



## dengland

kaigoss69 said:


> I would expect the nulls to move depending on location, and it honestly doesn't look too bad to me. Are you using the "front" setting, or "driver"? If you're using "front" I would switch to "driver" and remeasure from the driver's seat.


Thanks kiagoos. I appreciate the time you are taking with me.

Just a single Driver's seat tune at the moment. When I get back to a tune I think I will keep for awhile, I will add the Passenger seat tune.

So, the above measurements are based on the Driver's seat tune measured at 3 different locations.



> The swings aren't 25dB, you want the sub to be about 10 dB louder than the mid bass, at least that's what the algorithm is trying to achieve. Anything within 10dB you should be able to EQ out.


I raised the level on the sub prior to calibration. RED and GREEN are the Left and Right doors.



2-Way front with Sub

Subsonic: 20Hz/6dB slope
Sub/Front Cross: *50Hz*/24dB slope
Front Lo/Hi Cross: 300Hz/24dB slope
Side Hi Pass: 100Hz/24dB slope
MS-8 Level during calibration: -35 

Got one of the better tunes with those parameters and increased sub level. 

*MS-8 Target*


*Hanatsu Target*


It sounds pretty good just quickly knocking down the 400-800Hz as I was running out the door this AM.

As it has been stated over and over again in this thread, it is all about the levels. I feel I am finally zeroing in the right levels.


----------



## dengland

Elgrosso said:


> How did you take all these last measurements?
> It says 7-2 avg, are they average of 7 + 2 sweeps per ear for different driver/passenger/center positions for the same tune?
> It’s not clear if you measured each time a different tune for each position or not.
> 
> I can’t understand why you would have 20/25db deviation after the ms8, especially in 1/6 smoothing.
> 5 or 10db ok but not more (see previous fourthmeal's curve).
> 
> Also, playing with driver polarity should not help, the ms8 would fix that anyway (at least it always did in my car).
> But sometime it’s needed with the sub (longer delay?).


Thanks to you too Elgrosso.

I have not switched to Hanatsu's method of measurement yet. In is on my to do list to compare it to what I get with the way I have been measuring.

When measuring the levels pre tune, I am setting the Output Identification channel to on in the secret menu. Since I am mainly playing with low frequency, I have the USB mic protruding between the headrest and the top of the driver's seat using the RTA in REW and averaging 16 measurements.

When measuring overall frequency, I use a sweep from the computer into the 3.5mm jack input on the RAM HU. I take 7 measures and then average them. One in the center as described above, right outside of the headrest, Left outside of the headrest, center of the headrest angled left, center of headrest angled right, right inside of headrest, left inside of headrest.

During this time I am seated in the back seat.

Thanks again.


----------



## Elgrosso

dengland said:


> Thanks to you too Elgrosso.
> 
> I have not switched to Hanatsu's method of measurement yet. In is on my to do list to compare it to what I get with the way I have been measuring.
> 
> When measuring the levels pre tune, I am setting the Output Identification channel to on in the secret menu. Since I am mainly playing with low frequency, I have the USB mic protruding between the headrest and the top of the driver's seat using the RTA in REW and averaging 16 measurements.
> 
> When measuring overall frequency, I use a sweep from the computer into the 3.5mm jack input on the RAM HU. I take 7 measures and then average them. One in the center as described above, right outside of the headrest, Left outside of the headrest, center of the headrest angled left, center of headrest angled right, right inside of headrest, left inside of headrest.
> 
> During this time I am seated in the back seat.
> 
> Thanks again.



Ok, 
I might be wrong since I didn't re-read everything you tried, and you might not need any help if you like the final tune.
But it seems that you can optimize the measurements, in order to not waste too much time on minor things, just my 2 cts.

If the idea is to get a better view on what the ms8 is doing, and since it's the only device you can tune with, you should try to mimic with REW the way the ms8 measures your system during the calibration process.
Meaning using the same 6 sweeps method (3 left ear/3 right ear/moving the head), for each position, your body in the same place.
And bypassing the HU, even if you use it to listen to your music, the ms8 sweeps bypass it during calibration.

So, by memory (I didn’t use ms8 since few months):
1 - first the usual calibration with ms8, with rough levels you know should work.
don't overthink the XO selection here, like 63/67/70Hz etc, ms8 will probably modify them anyway
Same for driver polarities, except for sub later «maybe»
2 - then plug a jack to RCA to the ms8 AUX input directly.
3 - turn the dsp OFF in the ms8 menu
4 - measure each driver with avg of 6 sweeps
isolate each driver (unplug each rca from amps if you don't have an easier way)
you can protect the tweeters by highpassing the REW signal
use exact same position than during the ms8 calibration
5 - then turn the dsp ON, but keep L7 off in the menu
6 - repeat measurement for each driver with avg of 6 sweeps
7 - Then measure L/R summing with the same method but with multiple drivers, with dsp off or on, with or without L7, but always without rearfill.

You should get a nice picture of what ms8 did, or tried to do.
Then you can optimize your levels to help it, with 1/1 or 1/2 smoothing.
Try different XOs, sometime they won't have any noticeable effects.
And EQ once it looks good, with RTA or with full sweeps but without L7/rearfill.

This process gave me very good results, always, even if there are few things I'm not sure of (Andy might answer here):
- if ms8 uses the same "weight" for each of the 6 sweeps
- if L7 has a big impact on the measured results
It is overkill and certainly not necessary to get good results but I liked to get a better idea of the ms8 behavior.

Also remember this process bypasses the HU, but if the ms8 does a good job on analyzing/summing/flattening your HU signal it should be close to what you'll finally listen to. And at least you won't make decisions on measurement artefacts.
And of course you should fine tune EQ with real music at the end.
Let me know if it works for you.


----------



## dengland

Elgrosso said:


> Ok,
> I might be wrong since I didn't re-read everything you tried, and you might not need any help if you like the final tune.
> But it seems that you can optimize the measurements, in order to not waste too much time on minor things, just my 2 cts.
> 
> If the idea is to get a better view on what the ms8 is doing, and since it's the only device you can tune with, you should try to mimic with REW the way the ms8 measures your system during the calibration process.
> Meaning using the same 6 sweeps method (3 left ear/3 right ear/moving the head), for each position, your body in the same place.
> And bypassing the HU, even if you use it to listen to your music, the ms8 sweeps bypass it during calibration.


Thanks Elgrosso. It is quite a long read (especially in my build thread).

Interesting thought. I am going to have to wait until next weekend to give it a go. If I don't do this 1st thing in the AM, I will bake in the car.


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## soundquality4me

I just need a quick question answered if you can

With this unit you don't need a laptop or anything to use with it correct? 
One of the things holding me back from a dsp is not having/wanting to get a dell laptop


----------



## billw

No laptop needed. If you buy a used one, be sure it's complete with display and cable, headphones, harness etc.


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## soundquality4me

Thank you fellow floridian, I actual see a unit in the classifieds right now so I might just pull the trigger on one right now =) while I have you here can you just tell me how tho unit is connected to the speakers and whatnot. 

I already have my 80prs head unit in and connected. Do I have to take out my head unit again and use all of those wires in the back of the head unit or can I leave the head unit all connected and just use the speaker wires that are being ran out of them into my 4 channel and mono amps? 
I'm going to start reading this huge thread but if somebody has the time for a quick run down of wiring/rcas that would soooooo helpful, thanks again.


----------



## billw

Why are you using the speaker level outputs from the 80prs to the amps?

The best way would be to use the RCA outputs from the head unit to MS8. Make sure to turn off any crossover functions in the 80prs. You want to send a full range left and right signal to the MS8.

Skip the input setup with the CD. That's for oem head units. Follow the prompts on the MS8 display.

All that said, you have a basic dsp in the 80prs already. Try running the RCA outputs from the 80prs to the amplifiers and use the internal crossovers, time alignment, and eq before you buy something else.


----------



## soundquality4me

billw said:


> Why are you using the speaker level outputs from the 80prs to the amps?
> 
> The best way would be to use the RCA outputs from the head unit to MS8. Make sure to turn off any crossover functions in the 80prs. You want to send a full range left and right signal to the MS8.
> 
> Skip the input setup with the CD. That's for oem head units. Follow the prompts on the MS8 display.
> 
> All that said, you have a basic dsp in the 80prs already. Try running the RCA outputs from the 80prs to the amplifiers and use the internal crossovers, time alignment, and eq before you buy something else.



Yeah I think you might be right the speaker outputs aren't being used since I'm using the 4 channel. 
So to hook up the ms-8 all I would need to do is connect the rcas from the back of the 80prs to the ms-8? Or is it more complex? This sounds to easy, as I see a bunch of wiring in the pictures of ms-8's, thanks again btw and I will take your advice going active in a couple of days ms-8 or not


----------



## PorkCereal

If im not mistaken the 80prs already has a lot of the dsp stuff the ms8 has. Not sure that would be the next best upgrade. But yes, if you have rca outs you would run those into the input on the dsp.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## soundquality4me

PorkCereal said:


> If im not mistaken the 80prs already has a lot of the dsp stuff the ms8 has. Not sure that would be the next best upgrade. But yes, if you have rca outs you would run those into the input on the dsp.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


Ah damn, back to the drawing board then? 

Not really sure where to go. Im currently in the market for new 6.5 speakers and everybody is saying it doesn't matter about the speaker to much as it is 20% speaker and 80% install and tuning. With everything all deadened and sealed I was thinking a dsp would be the next step after I get a decent speaker and tweeter?


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## I800C0LLECT

That 80prs doesn't compare to the ms-8 at all. Grab one and you'll see.

If you want to get technical and understand why, it's in this thread and there's a couple other ms-8 threads that attempt to pull useful information out of this threadzilla

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## soundquality4me

I800C0LLECT said:


> That 80prs doesn't compare to the ms-8 at all. Grab one and you'll see.
> 
> If you want to get technical and understand why, it's in this thread and there's a couple other ms-8 threads that attempt to pull useful information out of this threadzilla
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


So your saying it is worth ($350) getting if I already have an 80prs? Getting kind of confused now one person telling me one thing and the other the opposite


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## corcraft

I apologize if this has been covered but it is almost 12,000 post on this thread. I did search "ms8 inputs" and found similiar questions but not the answer that im looking for.

I know the manual says to only use ch1&2 input with an aftermarket deck but is it possible to use all 6? There is a reasoning for me wanting to use all of the inputs but is it possible? If not why? Lol


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## PorkCereal

soundquality4me said:


> So your saying it is worth ($350) getting if I already have an 80prs? Getting kind of confused now one person telling me one thing and the other the opposite


I said the ms8 isn't your next step to upgrade. You're running passive on an active capable head unit. You haven't reached your max potential with the gear you have. You're skipping about 3 steps. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## I800C0LLECT

soundquality4me said:


> So your saying it is worth ($350) getting if I already have an 80prs? Getting kind of confused now one person telling me one thing and the other the opposite


I'm not going to suggest anything at this point. I don't want to be responsible for any confusion. Is the 80prs a good start?...yes. why?... Because it has left/right independent eq. Is it as capable as the ms8?... Not even close.



Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## I800C0LLECT

corcraft said:


> I apologize if this has been covered but it is almost 12,000 post on this thread. I did search "ms8 inputs" and found similiar questions but not the answer that im looking for.
> 
> I know the manual says to only use ch1&2 input with an aftermarket deck but is it possible to use all 6? There is a reasoning for me wanting to use all of the inputs but is it possible? If not why? Lol


The ms8 requires a full range signal. If that can be achieved with 2 channel input you're done. If the factory head unit has filters on different channels then the ms8 must sum as many channels as needed to gain a full range signal. That's dependent on that circumstance though.

Crossovers are already built into the ms8 and there's no reason to try and supplement it's capabilities. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## corcraft

soundquality4me said:


> Thank you fellow floridian, I actual see a unit in the classifieds right now so I might just pull the trigger on one right now =) while I have you here can you just tell me how tho unit is connected to the speakers and whatnot.
> 
> I already have my 80prs head unit in and connected. Do I have to take out my head unit again and use all of those wires in the back of the head unit or can I leave the head unit all connected and just use the speaker wires that are being ran out of them into my 4 channel and mono amps?
> I'm going to start reading this huge thread but if somebody has the time for a quick run down of wiring/rcas that would soooooo helpful, thanks again.


Assuming you have rcas from the back of your deck to your amp they will now go to the ms8... just 1 pair though and then go from ms8 to your amp. You will also need a power, gound and remote wire to the ms8 and run the display cable from the ms8 to upfront to display. 

There are a lot of opinions here on whats better and what is best for each individual. Your 80prs is very capable to get you where you want to be (imho) but the ms8 will do it for you. It takes the time and know how out of the install. Again another opinion, some thinks it takes the fun out of it, others arent satisfied with the results but if you dont have much tuning expierence i think that you would like it. I understand that the 80prs has "autoeq" but again my opinion is that it leaves a lot to be desired.

Now, im not saying that you cant improve the ms8s tuning with knowledge and experience. You can as they are doing above but it can get you where you want to be quicker but not necessarily better than the 80prs as long as rest of install is right and capable.


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## corcraft

I800C0LLECT said:


> The ms8 requires a full range signal. If that can be achieved with 2 channel input you're done. If the factory head unit has filters on different channels then the ms8 must sum as many channels as needed to gain a full range signal. That's dependent on that circumstance though.
> 
> Crossovers are already built into the ms8 and there's no reason to try and supplement it's capabilities.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk



Not what i want to do. Want to piggy back it to where i can use defeat to turn it off.


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## I800C0LLECT

Corcraft... Lots of misinformation. It's not opinion... The ms8 hardware capabilities are well beyond what the 80prs provides.

That doesn't mean you can't be happy with the 80prs. It's just a fact. Anybody pondering the two really needs to dive into this thread and Andy's explanation of what takes place.

Good luck

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## Lanson

$350 for an MS-8? Jeezus! Sweet!

Yeah bottom line, if you have/want a strong center channel setup, the MS-8 is a beast. If not, it may not be ideal. But I've ran several MS-8's now, and my favorite combo is using an MS-8 along with REW tuning sweeps. I use my mic and REW to listen to what the MS-8 is doing, and then tweak my 31 band to my desired curve, and man...its awesome!

TLDR, if you want center/surround abilities, MS-8 for sure (or PXAH800) If not, there's lots of great options.


----------



## corcraft

I800C0LLECT said:


> Corcraft... Lots of misinformation. It's not opinion... The ms8 hardware capabilities are well beyond what the 80prs provides.
> 
> That doesn't mean you can't be happy with the 80prs. It's just a fact. Anybody pondering the two really needs to dive into this thread and Andy's explanation of what takes place.
> 
> Good luck
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


I understand that. Have had several of both but also trying to explain quickly what i think the guy wants to know. 80prs works better for me that is actually why i posted the question that i did and how i even seen his question. My reasoning for wanting another ms8 is the quickness of it and use vs my tune until i have time... and actually also to compare tunes.


----------



## dengland

Elgrosso said:


> Ok,
> I might be wrong since I didn't re-read everything you tried, and you might not need any help if you like the final tune.
> But it seems that you can optimize the measurements, in order to not waste too much time on minor things, just my 2 cts.
> 
> If the idea is to get a better view on what the ms8 is doing, and since it's the only device you can tune with, you should try to mimic with REW the way the ms8 measures your system during the calibration process.
> Meaning using the same 6 sweeps method (3 left ear/3 right ear/moving the head), for each position, your body in the same place.
> And bypassing the HU, even if you use it to listen to your music, the ms8 sweeps bypass it during calibration.
> 
> So, by memory (I didn’t use ms8 since few months):
> 1 - first the usual calibration with ms8, with rough levels you know should work.
> don't overthink the XO selection here, like 63/67/70Hz etc, ms8 will probably modify them anyway
> Same for driver polarities, except for sub later «maybe»
> 2 - then plug a jack to RCA to the ms8 AUX input directly.
> 3 - turn the dsp OFF in the ms8 menu
> 4 - measure each driver with avg of 6 sweeps
> isolate each driver (unplug each rca from amps if you don't have an easier way)
> you can protect the tweeters by highpassing the REW signal
> use exact same position than during the ms8 calibration
> 5 - then turn the dsp ON, but keep L7 off in the menu
> 6 - repeat measurement for each driver with avg of 6 sweeps
> 7 - Then measure L/R summing with the same method but with multiple drivers, with dsp off or on, with or without L7, but always without rearfill.
> 
> You should get a nice picture of what ms8 did, or tried to do.
> Then you can optimize your levels to help it, with 1/1 or 1/2 smoothing.
> Try different XOs, sometime they won't have any noticeable effects.
> And EQ once it looks good, with RTA or with full sweeps but without L7/rearfill.
> 
> This process gave me very good results, always, even if there are few things I'm not sure of (Andy might answer here):
> - if ms8 uses the same "weight" for each of the 6 sweeps
> - if L7 has a big impact on the measured results
> It is overkill and certainly not necessary to get good results but I liked to get a better idea of the ms8 behavior.
> 
> Also remember this process bypasses the HU, but if the ms8 does a good job on analyzing/summing/flattening your HU signal it should be close to what you'll finally listen to. And at least you won't make decisions on measurement artefacts.
> And of course you should fine tune EQ with real music at the end.
> Let me know if it works for you.


Spend a good part of Sunday morning making measurements. I definitely have data, but I am not sure I derived information from it.

The channels are:

1&4: 3.5" Coaxial in the Dash
2&5: 6.5" Wool and Paper Driver in the front doors
3: 10" in a sealed enclosure under the rear seat of the truck cab

Sides off. 2-way front with Sub.
Crossed at 70Hz and 300Hz for consistency with previous measurements.

Six measurements were made for each driver, with and without processing "active". Left and right ear positions for the 3 head positions. those 6 measurements were averaged.

First up the 3.5" drivers:

*Channel 1 (Left Dash):*

DSP on (PURPLE Trace) declines at about 5dB/octave from about 500Hz to 10KHz. DSP off (RED Trace) holds a lot closer to flat.



*Channel 4 (Right Dash):*

DSP on (GREEN Trace) is close to flat from 350Hz to 900Hz and then declines. DSP off is not what I would consider better.




The 6/5" drivers:

*Channel 2 (Left Door):*

DSP on (BLUE Trace) and DSP off (PURPLE Trace) look close to the same. 



*Channel 5 (Right Door):* 

DSP on (RED Trace) looks better and more linear than the DSP off (GREEN Trace).



*Channel 8 (Sub):* 

DSP on (PURPLE Trace) looks about 3dB hotter than the DSP off (GREEN Trace).



SO, no intelligent observations from me by taking the data.

It does appear that the levels are our of whack prior to starting a tune if I am using the AUX in on the MS-8 with sweeps rather than PN from the hidden menu Output identifier

As a reminder, the levels I got then looked like this. They look well balanced and it looked like the obvious lo/high cross should be at 300Hz.



I have changed the sub level a couple of times, but not for the 3.5's or the 6.5's. Those are exactly at the same amp gain as in the picture above.

Looking at the levels using sweeps, it appears that the levels need to be closer before doing a tune. I plan to lower the 6.5 and sub levels.

*DSP on*




*DSP off*




Before I adjust the levels, I want to measure again with a much higher crossover between the 6.5's and the 3.5's to see how linear the MS-8 can keep the 6.5s


----------



## mdhurtubise

Sorry for the double post but I think I placed this in the wrong spot in the forum yesterday.

New to the forum, and copied some of this information from another member (DanMc85) since my setup is pretty similar. I'm looking for some help to properly setup my JBL MS-8 for integration into my 2014 Ford Fusion Titanium. I've never used an MS-8 before and have always left the tuning of my system to professionals but this time I'm digging in and giving it a shot myself. I’ve thus far ran all new wiring, installed a new center speaker in the front dash (powered by the the MS-8’s internal amplifier), and am in the process of installing four new component door speakers and a 10” fully sealed subwoofer powered by and 5-channel amplifier which receives low level inputs via RCA cables from the MS-8. In total I will have a 5.1 setup.

Sorry for the long post but didn't want to leave out any details. Hoping to get some good recommendations for some initial settings for both MS-8 setup and amplifier setup.

I will first need to configure the crossover settings on my JBL MS-8 before doing the timing and delays using the MS-8’s included headset microphone for calibration. I was wondering, using the data about my setup (see above and below), what would you audio pros recommend I set the crossover frequencies and slopes to during the initial MS-8 setup process? 

Here is the info I am in need of:
Recommendation to set the MS-8 crossover network settings for the front and rear (sides) speakers as the speakers are connected to their own passive crossovers, so to me it is a double crossover. Just don't want to cut off too much of the signal or mess up the phase using the wrong slopes.

Also when tuning the amp gains, should I just set the input voltage range to low (200mV-2V) and crank the sensitivity all the way up to 2V? Or should I set them with a multimeter to get best output or do I have to under compensate for the center channel not being amped by the main amplifier? Just don't want the center to sound washed out.

Any recommendations / suggestions anyone can provide are welcomed.

Sound Source:
2014 Ford Fusion Titanium 2.0L
Microsoft Sync System w/ Sony DSP (Deactivated)
Note: Sony DSP Disabled/Unplugged, Ford sound processing bypassed
Audio Control Module - Reprogrammed using Ford IDS As-Built Data so vehicle doesn't rely on factory amp and no longer outputs high level audio. Now outputs clean low level output instead of processed audio to reprocess again by MS-8.

25 - 1.79 Volts
26 - 2.07 Volts
27 - 2.39 Volts
28 - 2.68 Volts (perfect for JBL MS-8 which is based on 2.8 Volts)
29 - 3.12 Volts
30 (Max Volume) - 3.49 Volts

Wiring of Four Door Component Speaker Setup:
Low Level Speaker Out -->MS-8 --> JL Audio XD1000/5v2 --> JL Audio Crossover --> JL Audio ZR650-CSi components with Woofer/Tweeter (Separate Outputs)

Front and Rear (In Front and Rear Doors - Two Sets):
JL Audio ZR650-CSi (2-Way) - 6.5" - Connected to JL Audio XD1000/5v2 (Channels 1-4 = One channel per door) in which the amp is wired from the low level RCA outputs of the MS-8
Using JL Audio Crossovers - Connected to XD1000/5v2 amplifier in 1-way setup making use of the component Crossovers.
Continuous Power Handling (RMS): 85 W
Peak Power Handling: 225 W
Frequency Response (± 3 dB): 48 Hz - 25 KHz	(25000 Hz)
Sensitivity: 89.5 dB
Nominal Impedance: 4 Ω

Wiring of Front Center Channel Speaker Setup:
Low Level Speaker Out -->MS-8 --> JL Audio C2-350x

Front Center Speaker:
JL Audio C2-350x (2-way) - 3.5” Coaxial - Connected directly to MS-8 Output (Internal Amp)
Continuous Power Handling (RMS): 25 W
Peak Power Handling: 75 W
Sensitivity: 83 dB
Frequency Response: 130 Hz - 22 KHz ± 3 dB
Nominal Impedance: 4 Ω

Trunk Subwoofer:
JL Audio 10” CS110G-W6v3: Single 10W6v3 ProWedge
Connected to JL Audio XD1000/5v2 (Channel 5) from MS-8 low level RCA
Continuous Power Handling (RMS): 600 W
Peak Power Handling: 1200 W
Sensitivity: 82.7 dB 
Frequency Response	22 - 200 Hz
Nominal Impedance: 2 Ω
Enclosure Type: Sealed

Digital Amplifier (Built-in DSP/Crossovers currently disabled):
XD1000/5v2: 5 Ch. Class D System Amplifier, 1000 W
RMS @ 14.4V (Input Power):
Main Channels @ 4 Ω: 75 W RMS x 4
Main Channels @ 2 Ω	: 100 W RMS x 4
Main Channels - Bridged @ 4Ω: 200 W RMS x 2
Subwoofer Channel @ 4 Ω: 400 W RMS x 1
Subwoofer Channel @ 3 Ω: 500 W RMS x 1
Subwoofer Channel @ 2 Ω: 600 W RMS x 1
Frequency Response (Main Channels): 12 Hz - 22 kHz (+0, -1dB)
Frequency Response (Subwoofer Channel):	10 Hz - 1 kHz (+0, -1dB)
SNR (Main Channels): >104 dB
SNR (Subwoofer Channel): >84 dB
Input Voltage Range @ RCA Inputs	Switchable from 200 mV - 2 V RMS (Low) to 800 mV - 8 V RMS (High)


----------



## GCVIC

MD, I think reading through this thread will be very helpful for you. I actually printed the whole thread out one day and read it all. I would started by setting your front crossover at 80hertz and back at about 150 hertz and see how it sounds - you can then adjust with 31 band eq. Its also easy to experiment by recalibrating with different settings.

I believe somewhere in this thread the recommendation was use low input cranked up to 2 volts

For calibration, you want to try to get all drivers close to the same decibel level. This will likely mean turning your amps way down to match the centre speaker. You can turn up other amps after calibration, but you will lose the 'mix' given the ms8 amp is likely much less powerful. I tried to integrate centre channel using ms8 amp with dedicated amps and eventually just gave up. I plan to add the centre channel back once i get another amp and i can figure out how to get a driver in my dash that matches my fronts (which involved a bunch of cutting and fabrication).

Good luck!


----------



## mdhurtubise

Thanks for the quick response. I also decided to order a larger 4" JL Audio C2-400X which has a lower frequency response which will help to set the stage better I hope. 

Current Center Channel: JL Audio C2-350x
Continuous Power Handling: 25 Watts
Recommended Amp Power: 10-40 Watts per channel (RMS)
Efficiency: 83.0 dB @ 1W/1m | 89.0 dB @ 1W/0.5m
Sensitivity: 86.0 dB @ 2.83V/1m
Nominal Impedance: 4 ohm
Frequency Response: 130 Hz - 22 KHz ± 3 dB

New Center Channel: JL Audio C2-400x
Continuous Power Handling: 35 Watts
Recommended Amp Power: 10-50 Watts per channel (RMS)
Efficiency: 84.5 dB @ 1W/1m | 90.5 dB @ 1W/0.5m
Sensitivity: 87.5 dB @ 2.83V/1m
Nominal Impedance: 4 ohm
Frequency Response: 71 Hz - 22 KHz ± 3 dB


A few questions I would appreciate some help with to better understand the MS-8 and how setup and tuning is done:

1. So by using the MS-8 for setting crossovers during it's initial setup should I completely turn the cross overs of the external amp off?

2. Why set the crossover frequency different for the rear door speakers as opposed to the front door speakers since they are the same speaker and have the same frequency response of 48 Hz - 25 KHz? 

3. Could I set the crossovers even lower then the 80Hz you recommended or is 80Hz as low as you would go? Also, I didn't see you recommend a low pass crossover for my sub so maybe you were implying that the sub would take care of everything 80Hz and below with the sub's low pas sfilter.

4. So 2V at the amp I understand for calibration purposes. Do I set the calibration first with the amp at 2V gain/sensitivity and then go back and decrease the amp gains or vice versa?

5. Does dropping the voltage closer to 2mV increase or decrease the gain/sensitivity?From reading I though the closer to 2mV you get (turning the gain clockwise) increases the gain.

6. What's the best way to measure the decibel level of each individual driver? After calibration of the MS-8 should I test each speaker with the static test included in the MS-8 setup procedure and use my phone to measure while keeping ensuring my phone stays in the same spot in the vehicle while each speaker is tested?

Thanks again for the help. Still a toddler in the learning process that's barely learned how to tie his shoes.


----------



## GCVIC

1. So by using the MS-8 for setting crossovers during it's initial setup should I completely turn the cross overs of the external amp off?

If you have a passive crossover between your mids and tweets, amp crossovers not needed. If your amp serves as crossover, then you need it to ensure your tweets are protected and receiving correct frequencies. 

2. Why set the crossover frequency different for the rear door speakers as opposed to the front door speakers since they are the same speaker and have the same frequency response of 48 Hz - 25 KHz? 

Cant remember the reasoning (i think its in this thread) but recall you want to set backs higher crossover level, I believe for imaging reasons. Remember, if you are using ms8 logic on, the rears received different information than the fronts, as per magic of ms8. 

3. Could I set the crossovers even lower then the 80Hz you recommended or is 80Hz as low as you would go? Also, I didn't see you recommend a low pass crossover for my sub so maybe you were implying that the sub would take care of everything 80Hz and below with the sub's low pas 

80 is a good starting point. I actually crossover at 95, but have experiment with as low as 65htz. Depends on environment and what your speakers can handle. Your sub would handle everything below 80hertz if that what you crossover at. I sub sonic us set st 28 hertz i believe

4. So 2V at the amp I understand for calibration purposes. Do I set the calibration first with the amp at 2V gain/sensitivity and then go back and decrease the amp gains or vice versa?

Calibration should be with drivers close to same decibels and then you can turn up to 2v given your centre channel situation.

5. Does dropping the voltage closer to 2mV increase or decrease the gain/sensitivity?From reading I though the closer to 2mV you get (turning the gain clockwise) increases the gain.

im not comfortable answering this

6. What's the best way to measure the decibel level of each individual driver? After calibration of the MS-8 should I test each speaker with the static test included in the MS-8 setup procedure and use my phone to measure while keeping ensuring my phone stays in the same spot in the vehicle while each speaker is tested?

I just use my iphone with an app to read levels. I don't do individual drivers, but rather put iphone in one spot and measure left and right together. I for tweets, then front mids, then rears then sub. I have active fronts so i can do this. With one way system some folks cover the tweets for one calibration sweep ( i believe the first sweep, but thats mentioned in this thread)


----------



## altec

on a cosmetic note, i need to repaint my ms8. My wife needed space and moved my ms8 and a jl 10w6v2 that was stored in the garage, to a shed in the back yard. They apparenly spent just over a year outside. Needless to say they both have oxidation ans paint damage now. The ms8 pains me because I have three ms amps boxed and hidden from the wife. What could be done to repaint it to look original?


----------



## Radknight

You could always vinyl wrap it any badass colour you like. 3M makes a mean brushed steel or dark titanium or even a pearlescent white. Just don't do the carbon fiber. Way too played out.


----------



## Technous

Hi Guys,

Just get into this MS8 world, already read most it but still need your expert advise on this, make sure I did not make any mistake as I'm a newbie that want to try the setup myself. Sorry if I have lots of questions 

I would like to keep the setup simple for my not too loud music taste, so if possible I do not want to add additional power or sub, or if sub is a must, perhaps small active sub like pioneer pioneer ts-wx120a or Hertz DBA200.3? but I prefer without to keep the simplicity.

To make use of MS8, it is advise to connect directly the speaker to MS8 without passive xover. I read also to use capacitor for tweeter protection? Am I right? what is the right capacitor to use then? or perhaps with MS8 small internal power, those protection is not needed? a bit puzzle here.

To my understanding, MS8 is great with center speaker and find the biggest available, but only can find pioneer TS-CX900 2.6" with in my country as people here don't use center speaker anymore. Should I use the Pioneer center? or better without?

I'm planning to have the MS-8 set up as follows for outputs:
1 Dash Left (FL Hi) - Hertz ESK 165L 1" Tweeter
2 Door Front Left (FL Lo) - Hertz ESK 165L 6.5" Woofer
3 Center (Center) - Pioneer TS-CX900
4 Dash Right (FR Hi) - Hertz ESK 165L 1" Tweeter
5 Door Front Right (FR Lo) - Hertz ESK 165L 6.5" Woofer
6 Door Rear Left (SL) - Factory stock speaker
7 Door Rear Right (SR) - Factory stock speaker
8 

Inputs are:
1 Door Front Left
2 Door Front Right


Speakers: 
Hertz ESK 165L (Yellow cone)
- 16.5 cm or 6.5" Water-Repellent Pressed Paper Cone
- 2.6 cm or 1" Soft Dome Tetolon
- Frequency response: 50 Hz - 23 kHz
- output sound pressure level: 92 dB
- impedance: 4 Ω 
- Power Handling RMS 100 Watt Peak 200 Watt ( Max )
- Crossover type LP/HP 
- Crossover cut off 3 kHz - 6/12 dB Oct

Pioneer TS-CX900
- 6.6 cm high acoustic fiber cone woofer
- 2.5 cm super wide-range tweeter (hard dome type)
- frequency band: 80 Hz ~ 70,000 Hz
- output sound pressure level: 81 dB
- impedance: 4 Ω 
- rated input: 20 W / moment maximum input: 80 W

Thanks in advance guys.


----------



## Technous

Maybe MS8 after EoL, the thread is no longer exicted . Anyway, I have figured it out by myself after several try out, so far the sound is much better now. No more lack of midbass, but still.. please let me know if my steps and settings are incorrect or maybe can be improved. 

Steps:
1. After turn on the volume in HU to get sinyal OK OK OK, take the CD out and turn back volume to normal.

2.Xover Setup, all slope 24hz
subwoofer none (Since I dont have)

Front 2way, woofer 67hz, Tweeter 2700hz
(my Hertz Esk165L FS Woofer is 67hz and Tweeter 1350hz so x2=2700hz)

Center 1way, 350hz (can not find the FS, but 350hz seems better)

Side 1way, 100hz
Rear none

CH1: FL High
CH2: FR High
CH3: FL Low
CH4: FR Low 
CH5: Side L
CH6: Side R
CH7: Center
CH8: -

3. Output test all channel
4. Volume MS8 setup -25
5. Setup Acoustic Driver and passenger side, before complete, unplugged the headset
6. Complete and set the MS8 volume to -6


----------



## Lanson

Regarding center, why not just find a big center from another brand, and take advantage of MS8's internal calibration EQ ability to make the speakers sound similar? In the past, I've used JBL, Dayton, Fountek, and Wavecor centers. The Wavecor 3.5" 4 ohm unit is the one I'm using now and I recommend it. Just find out how much physical space you can work with, and order a speaker that fits that. I'm talking individual home drivers here, it doesn't need to be "car audio" stuff. 



Technous said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Just get into this MS8 world, already read most it but still need your expert advise on this, make sure I did not make any mistake as I'm a newbie that want to try the setup myself. Sorry if I have lots of questions
> 
> I would like to keep the setup simple for my not too loud music taste, so if possible I do not want to add additional power or sub, or if sub is a must, perhaps small active sub like pioneer pioneer ts-wx120a or Hertz DBA200.3? but I prefer without to keep the simplicity.
> 
> To make use of MS8, it is advise to connect directly the speaker to MS8 without passive xover. I read also to use capacitor for tweeter protection? Am I right? what is the right capacitor to use then? or perhaps with MS8 small internal power, those protection is not needed? a bit puzzle here.
> 
> To my understanding, MS8 is great with center speaker and find the biggest available, but only can find pioneer TS-CX900 2.6" with in my country as people here don't use center speaker anymore. Should I use the Pioneer center? or better without?
> 
> I'm planning to have the MS-8 set up as follows for outputs:
> 1 Dash Left (FL Hi) - Hertz ESK 165L 1" Tweeter
> 2 Door Front Left (FL Lo) - Hertz ESK 165L 6.5" Woofer
> 3 Center (Center) - Pioneer TS-CX900
> 4 Dash Right (FR Hi) - Hertz ESK 165L 1" Tweeter
> 5 Door Front Right (FR Lo) - Hertz ESK 165L 6.5" Woofer
> 6 Door Rear Left (SL) - Factory stock speaker
> 7 Door Rear Right (SR) - Factory stock speaker
> 8
> 
> Inputs are:
> 1 Door Front Left
> 2 Door Front Right
> 
> 
> Speakers:
> Hertz ESK 165L (Yellow cone)
> - 16.5 cm or 6.5" Water-Repellent Pressed Paper Cone
> - 2.6 cm or 1" Soft Dome Tetolon
> - Frequency response: 50 Hz - 23 kHz
> - output sound pressure level: 92 dB
> - impedance: 4 Ω
> - Power Handling RMS 100 Watt Peak 200 Watt ( Max )
> - Crossover type LP/HP
> - Crossover cut off 3 kHz - 6/12 dB Oct
> 
> Pioneer TS-CX900
> - 6.6 cm high acoustic fiber cone woofer
> - 2.5 cm super wide-range tweeter (hard dome type)
> - frequency band: 80 Hz ~ 70,000 Hz
> - output sound pressure level: 81 dB
> - impedance: 4 Ω
> - rated input: 20 W / moment maximum input: 80 W
> 
> Thanks in advance guys.


----------



## Technous

Thanks for the advice. Will try to find a bigger center, almost had Alpine DLB-100R which is 4", but the seller drop my order as they no longer had a stock. Anyway, the current setup sound nice already , but yes it could be better 

I try to play around with the center xover, seems like 400hz is a good spot than 350hz with more midbass, I have tried 500hz, the mid bass almost cover the center vocal.



fourthmeal said:


> Regarding center, why not just find a big center from another brand, and take advantage of MS8's internal calibration EQ ability to make the speakers sound similar? In the past, I've used JBL, Dayton, Fountek, and Wavecor centers. The Wavecor 3.5" 4 ohm unit is the one I'm using now and I recommend it. Just find out how much physical space you can work with, and order a speaker that fits that. I'm talking individual home drivers here, it doesn't need to be "car audio" stuff.


----------



## Technous

The MS-8 sound good already, but I'm trying to get the best settings, so welcome for any suggestions 

As mentioned above, I'm using hertz ESK 165L.4 FS 60Hz-67Hz (some posted 60Hz and some posted 67Hz), Tweeter FS is 1350Hz (factory crossover cut off 3kHz - 6/12 db) and Pioneer Center TS-CX900

I'm using MS8 build-in power and no subwoofer.

Wondering what would be the best Xover setup. 
- MS-8 volume setup -25 or -20 better because no separate amp/power as suggested in manual? (then back to -6 for normal listening)

- Xover for woofer, 20-40Hz as suggested in the manual for more than 6" woofer without subwoofer? or 60Hz-67Hz following speaker FS?

- Xover for Tweeter, above 3500Hz as suggested in the manual or following the rule of FSx2 2700Hz or following factory Xover 3000Hz?

- Center, I think 400Hz is the sweet spot, but let me know this is OK.

all setup using 24db slope.


----------



## Lanson

Technous said:


> The MS-8 sound good already, but I'm trying to get the best settings, so welcome for any suggestions
> 
> As mentioned above, I'm using hertz ESK 165L.4 FS 60Hz-67Hz (some posted 60Hz and some posted 67Hz), Tweeter FS is 1350Hz (factory crossover cut off 3kHz - 6/12 db) and Pioneer Center TS-CX900
> 
> I'm using MS8 build-in power and no subwoofer.
> 
> Wondering what would be the best Xover setup.
> - MS-8 volume setup -25 or -20 better because no separate amp/power as suggested in manual? (then back to -6 for normal listening)
> 
> - Xover for woofer, 20-40Hz as suggested in the manual for more than 6" woofer without subwoofer? or 60Hz-67Hz following speaker FS?
> 
> - Xover for Tweeter, above 3500Hz as suggested in the manual or following the rule of FSx2 2700Hz or following factory Xover 3000Hz?
> 
> - Center, I think 400Hz is the sweet spot, but let me know this is OK.
> 
> all setup using 24db slope.



It will take experimentation on the crossover slopes, but remember what you "set" is more of an advice or suggestion that the MS-8 uses to actually set the proper crossover. The true crossover frequency can vary from what you set, based on what the MS-8's processor EQ's change. They are biquad filters, so a boost or cut right before a crossover point you select could in fact change the true crossover point. That being said, I think you should try a low-ish crossover point and use steep slopes which the MS-8 does very well. Try the tweeter at 2900 or so, 24dB/oct. Center, I think you should try to push lower if you can. This, on my systems, has helped anchor the front end when I can play as close to 100hz as possible. I use 250-280hz as my "acceptable" range for a center, but lower is better. Woofer crossover point, without a sub you should run a high crossover point to prevent door woofer issues. I'd never run the MS-8 without a sub though...there's no point. Even a tiny "shoebox" type subwoofer setup would be better. Consider, at the very least, just stuffing a small 8" sealed sub in the trunk or whatnot, and amplify. The MS-8 "wants" a sub in most builds, to meet full frequency response. I tried a non-sub experiment with Dayton 8's in the doors, and it was awful. I immediately swapped back to my full sub setup.

Regarding MS-8 power: I'd recommend moving away from it at all costs. The chipamps in the MS-8 are not very clean when pushed, and I noticed significant performance gains when I amplified ALL my channels. In my first MS-8 build, I started with no amps, but this was pretty short-lived as there was no dynamic power, and the distortion was obvious when I brought it up some. Even inexpensive, simple small amps would be better, at least on the front woofers and sub.

Finally, regarding speakers (especially center), think OUTSIDE the known car audio brands. Home audio gear is all around you, and will spec out just fine for the job.


----------



## Technous

Wow..
Thanks a lot fourthmeal, appreciated your suggestions.



fourthmeal said:


> It will take experimentation on the crossover slopes, but remember what you "set" is more of an advice or suggestion that the MS-8 uses to actually set the proper crossover. The true crossover frequency can vary from what you set, based on what the MS-8's processor EQ's change. They are biquad filters, so a boost or cut right before a crossover point you select could in fact change the true crossover point. That being said, I think you should try a low-ish crossover point and use steep slopes which the MS-8 does very well. Try the tweeter at 2900 or so, 24dB/oct. Center, I think you should try to push lower if you can. This, on my systems, has helped anchor the front end when I can play as close to 100hz as possible. I use 250-280hz as my "acceptable" range for a center, but lower is better. Woofer crossover point, without a sub you should run a high crossover point to prevent door woofer issues. I'd never run the MS-8 without a sub though...there's no point. Even a tiny "shoebox" type subwoofer setup would be better. Consider, at the very least, just stuffing a small 8" sealed sub in the trunk or whatnot, and amplify. The MS-8 "wants" a sub in most builds, to meet full frequency response. I tried a non-sub experiment with Dayton 8's in the doors, and it was awful. I immediately swapped back to my full sub setup.
> 
> Regarding MS-8 power: I'd recommend moving away from it at all costs. The chipamps in the MS-8 are not very clean when pushed, and I noticed significant performance gains when I amplified ALL my channels. In my first MS-8 build, I started with no amps, but this was pretty short-lived as there was no dynamic power, and the distortion was obvious when I brought it up some. Even inexpensive, simple small amps would be better, at least on the front woofers and sub.
> 
> Finally, regarding speakers (especially center), think OUTSIDE the known car audio brands. Home audio gear is all around you, and will spec out just fine for the job.


----------



## Erroon

Where can someone get a used MS8?


----------



## litrekid

Erroon said:


> Where can someone get a used MS8?


Here or eBay. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## MoreyFan

So all of the ones selling on eBay without a remote or display are useless without those items correct? The remote sensor is in the display and the remote is the only way the UI works.

What are the people buying them doing with them?


----------



## litrekid

That is correct. I have no idea what someone would do with it unless that have a full kit and the main unit doesn't work. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## Lanson

It would be useful if you blew one up and needed to just replace the main unit.


----------



## Elgrosso

yes always good to have a spare. Did someone here buy one from liquidationzoo on ebay?
They don't seem to go, or they have a bunch! And always the same picture.


----------



## MoreyFan

litrekid said:


> That is correct. I have no idea what someone would do with it unless that have a full kit and the main unit doesn't work.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


Thanks. 


That is really disappointing. The MS-8 looks like it could have been what I wanted. Place a mic and let it do the work for me like my AVR does.


----------



## USS Enterprise

REALLY dumb MS-8 question.

It says that due to the ms-8 taking 8ms to process, all signals must come from the ms-8 in order to eliminate issues.

Well, what if, for example, you have an aftermarket deck, and have say rears run fromt he deck, everything else from the ms-8. As stated, this would cause a timed delay issue. But, what if you then time delayed the rears both 8 ms?

Would everything then be fine?

I know, REALLY dumb. Just something I've been wondering.


----------



## Golfntob

Nope won't work. The delay in the ms8 and time correction your deck has aren't the same. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Lanson

USS Enterprise said:


> REALLY dumb MS-8 question.
> 
> It says that due to the ms-8 taking 8ms to process, all signals must come from the ms-8 in order to eliminate issues.
> 
> Well, what if, for example, you have an aftermarket deck, and have say rears run fromt he deck, everything else from the ms-8. As stated, this would cause a timed delay issue. But, what if you then time delayed the rears both 8 ms?
> 
> Would everything then be fine?
> 
> I know, REALLY dumb. Just something I've been wondering.


This in theory could work (just like a twin pair of MS-8's could work), but consider that the MS-8 is creating a sound field, so speaker outputs left out of this sound field generation will likely not just be off on time alignment, but they'll also be off on the actual sound field generation.

But you can run an output of an MS8 to more than one speaker. I have my rear door speakers and D-pillar rear speakers on shared outputs, on my MS-8. It definitely works. The MS-8 calibrates with shared outputs as-one. It doesn't know or "care" that my left rear door and left rear d-pillar output at the same time during a sweep. It just processes them as-one. So my point is, think of the MS-8 as 8 channels of output, but you could have several midbass drivers all powered off several amps, output from just one channel of the MS-8. Or you could run an active crossover downstream and have woofers and tweeters on one single output channel. The MS-8 doesn't "know" the difference.

What did you want those other two outputs to do? Also, consider the "Kaigoss method" of having the front woofer output include the sub out, and use external crossovers to handle the sub and front woofer interaction.


----------



## USS Enterprise

That could possibly work quite well. I had heard of that method, but didn't know what it was called. Now that I do, searching has been easier. (beats going through a 1200 page thread 1 by 1)

I just want rears. Actually, I don't, but I have kids, and my wife wants rears for them, and it's her car, so that means I must do rears. Lol

Her sub amp has a non-defeatable xo, so that would work, but her front midbass amp has no xo. None at all. So I'd have to find a solution to hp it.

Alternatively, I thought I might be able to run the midbass/midrange off of one ms8 channel per side, as they are directly next to each other, but again, neither midbass nor midrange amp has crossovers. Leaving me trying to find an outboard xo solution.

Wish I could convince her of fronts only. Would make life much simpler.

Which scenario do you think would be better? 

Midbass/subs off ms8 channel, say 20-400, sub amp doing xo for sub, undetermined way to xo for midbass at 80 give or take?

Or midbass/midrange off ms8 channel, 80-3k (estimated, could be 4k or anywhere in between) again, undetermined way to xo 400 down to mb, 400 up to midrange. (again, estimated. it's a WIP)

Option one retains ability to t/a all front stage drivers individually, but option 2 uses less channels, leaving me more flexibility.

How does any t/a on front midbass applied by the ms8 affect any sub on the same ms8 channel?


----------



## Lanson

IMO the best aspects of the MS-8 are realized with center and surround speakers. I'd definitely stay with rears with the MS-8 in the system.

In my Flex build, I ran into similar issues with a 3-way front, 2-way center, rears, and sub. My solution was to engineer and build 3 passive crossovrs. I crossed my mids and tweets for all 3 locations. The crossovers were simple 2nd order units, and the MS-8 did a fantastic job getting the rest of the response spot-on with those. I got close with my passive part picks, and I crossed over high, before beaming but still way up there as my mids were small, and this worked great. Remember your tweeters are not going to need time alignment as much as spl alignment, to get them to sound equi-distant,



USS Enterprise said:


> That could possibly work quite well. I had heard of that method, but didn't know what it was called. Now that I do, searching has been easier. (beats going through a 1200 page thread 1 by 1)
> 
> I just want rears. Actually, I don't, but I have kids, and my wife wants rears for them, and it's her car, so that means I must do rears. Lol
> 
> Her sub amp has a non-defeatable xo, so that would work, but her front midbass amp has no xo. None at all. So I'd have to find a solution to hp it.
> 
> Alternatively, I thought I might be able to run the midbass/midrange off of one ms8 channel per side, as they are directly next to each other, but again, neither midbass nor midrange amp has crossovers. Leaving me trying to find an outboard xo solution.
> 
> Wish I could convince her of fronts only. Would make life much simpler.
> 
> Which scenario do you think would be better?
> 
> Midbass/subs off ms8 channel, say 20-400, sub amp doing xo for sub, undetermined way to xo for midbass at 80 give or take?
> 
> Or midbass/midrange off ms8 channel, 80-3k (estimated, could be 4k or anywhere in between) again, undetermined way to xo 400 down to mb, 400 up to midrange. (again, estimated. it's a WIP)
> 
> Option one retains ability to t/a all front stage drivers individually, but option 2 uses less channels, leaving me more flexibility.
> 
> How does any t/a on front midbass applied by the ms8 affect any sub on the same ms8 channel?


----------



## USS Enterprise

Could work, my only concern would be that my tweet is in the sail, and the mid is mid door or slightly below. (directly diagonal to the midbass, within 1/2 inch of it in fact)

I could see it working if they were in closer proximity, but they are pretty far apart. Which is why I thought midbass/midrange would be a viable option for passive/outboard xo.

But again, that leaves t/a issues. If sharing a channel for mid/tweet will work, despite the distance, I'll give it a shot.

Although, I will not be getting the full ms8 experience - I cannot run a center.
It would require cutting the dashboard, extensive modification, rerouting of heat and a/c ducting that run directly under center dash, and removal of windshield to get to it anyway.
Too much, it's not gonna happen.

Thoughts?


----------



## GCVIC

Will adding an extender to the jblms8 headphone mic cable affect my calibration results (ie cable to long, etc)?
Thanks


----------



## glockcoma

I believe the 3.5 mm end is a 4 contact pin which is different than the "normal"
3.5mm plug. Not sure an extender would work.


----------



## FordEscape

The MS-8 headphone/mic uses a 3-pole x 3.5mm

IF you can get the correct conductors the extra length within reason won't be a problem. You can build your own, see the male plug pic for the 'match':

http://www.markertek.com/product/nys-231bg/rean-nys231bg-3-5mm-trs-plug-black-gold

http://www.markertek.com/product/ny...ble-jack-black-metal-handle-and-gold-contacts


----------



## GCVIC

glockcoma said:


> I believe the 3.5 mm end is a 4 contact pin which is different than the "normal"
> 3.5mm plug. Not sure an extender would work.


Yikes, is this true? I will have look again. I thought it was standard stereo 3.5" - can anyone please confirm?


----------



## glockcoma

Thank you for clarifying FordEscape.


----------



## FordEscape

GCVIC said:


> ... I thought it was standard stereo 3.5 *mm* - can anyone please confirm?


Fixed that for ya and "yes" ... count the rings on the jack to verify compatibility (TWO insulator rings, three conductors, TRS) 



glockcoma said:


> Thank you for clarifying FordEscape.


No worries. The MS-8 remote/display uses a 4-contact/conductor cable/connectors (a smaller and much more difficult to 'match' 2.5mm TRRS on the remote end). BTDT


----------



## GCVIC

Thank you and I totally appreciate it 

Andy has indicated that it's important to unplug the headphones/mic after calibration . Can I leave the extender plugged into the ms8 as long as I disconnect the headphones plug from the extender cable ?


----------



## FordEscape

That's been discussed before in this thread. Even though the MS-8 wiring diagrams show that the headset jack in the main unit uses one of the contacts as a circuit disconnect, IRRC Andy has said that leaving an extension cable inserted at the main unit and disconnecting headphone/mic at the end of that, as you describe, is sufficient to prevent problems (e.g. the dread 'jet engine sound').


----------



## Technous

Hi Fourthmeal,

Tried your suggestion to add sub, purchased active subwoofer Hertz 8" dba 200.3 use the RCA PRE-IN and connected to RCA speaker output CH-8.
- crossover low-pass (50 Hz - 120 Hz) 
- Sensitivity (.3 - 5.0 VRMS)

but the bass is so boomy eventhough I have set the lowest sensitivity 0.3 and low pass 50hz

- Subsonic Filter tried the combination 20hz-50hz, slope 12dB/octave still boomy 
- Sub/Front Xover tried the combination 80hz-100hz , slope 24dB/octave
- Tried to lower the volume from -25 to -30, but not much difference, bass still boomy

Am I doing wrong? or the sub-woofer is defect?




fourthmeal said:


> It will take experimentation on the crossover slopes, but remember what you "set" is more of an advice or suggestion that the MS-8 uses to actually set the proper crossover. The true crossover frequency can vary from what you set, based on what the MS-8's processor EQ's change. They are biquad filters, so a boost or cut right before a crossover point you select could in fact change the true crossover point. That being said, I think you should try a low-ish crossover point and use steep slopes which the MS-8 does very well. Try the tweeter at 2900 or so, 24dB/oct. Center, I think you should try to push lower if you can. This, on my systems, has helped anchor the front end when I can play as close to 100hz as possible. I use 250-280hz as my "acceptable" range for a center, but lower is better. Woofer crossover point, without a sub you should run a high crossover point to prevent door woofer issues. I'd never run the MS-8 without a sub though...there's no point. Even a tiny "shoebox" type subwoofer setup would be better. Consider, at the very least, just stuffing a small 8" sealed sub in the trunk or whatnot, and amplify. The MS-8 "wants" a sub in most builds, to meet full frequency response. I tried a non-sub experiment with Dayton 8's in the doors, and it was awful. I immediately swapped back to my full sub setup.
> 
> Regarding MS-8 power: I'd recommend moving away from it at all costs. The chipamps in the MS-8 are not very clean when pushed, and I noticed significant performance gains when I amplified ALL my channels. In my first MS-8 build, I started with no amps, but this was pretty short-lived as there was no dynamic power, and the distortion was obvious when I brought it up some. Even inexpensive, simple small amps would be better, at least on the front woofers and sub.
> 
> Finally, regarding speakers (especially center), think OUTSIDE the known car audio brands. Home audio gear is all around you, and will spec out just fine for the job.


----------



## Technous

I'm confuse.. 

Quote: Turn the crossover frequency on the subwoofer amp to the highest frequency available if it can't be defeated. 

Should I turn the phase in my active sub 120hz? or 50hz?




Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sub: 1
> Subsonic Filter: 20Hz, 12dB/octave
> Sub/Front Crossover: 70Hz/24dB/octave
> Front: 2-way
> Front Mid/High Crossover: 3.5k
> Sides: 1-way
> Side Crossover: 120Hz/24dB/octave
> Rear: None
> Center: 1-way
> Center High Pass Crossover: 200Hz/24dB/octave (unless the speaker is a 6" or something like that. Then, cross it over lower.)
> 
> Set all the amp gains at about 2V. Set the crossovers in the amplifiers to "off". Turn the crossover frequency on the subwoofer amp to the highest frequency available if it can't be defeated.
> 
> Set MS-8's volume control at -35. Run the sweeps. Turn MS-8's volume control up to -6. Use the radio's volume control. If it isn't loud enough, turn all the amplifier gains up by precisely the same amount.
> 
> Done.


----------



## Lanson

Wait, so you added a sub and ran that to one of the MS8's output channels. You then recalibrated, right? During the calibration process, specifically the white noise part, you want to sub to output at basically the same as the rest of the system. You do not want to add more crossovers in the path if the MS-8 is in control. You want to then let the system calibrate, and after that, tweak the 31 band EQ to suit your hoped-for response. Flat-out, the MS-8 will make it a little boomy sometimes, but you can adjust that. Just don't make the MS-8 fight around another crossover in the amp. 



Technous said:


> Hi Fourthmeal,
> 
> Tried your suggestion to add sub, purchased active subwoofer Hertz 8" dba 200.3 use the RCA PRE-IN and connected to RCA speaker output CH-8.
> - crossover low-pass (50 Hz - 120 Hz)
> - Sensitivity (.3 - 5.0 VRMS)
> 
> but the bass is so boomy eventhough I have set the lowest sensitivity 0.3 and low pass 50hz
> 
> - Subsonic Filter tried the combination 20hz-50hz, slope 12dB/octave still boomy
> - Sub/Front Xover tried the combination 80hz-100hz , slope 24dB/octave
> - Tried to lower the volume from -25 to -30, but not much difference, bass still boomy
> 
> Am I doing wrong? or the sub-woofer is defect?


----------



## OldNewb

.3 is the highest sensitivity not the lowest.


----------



## Technous

Yes, I did and done the factory reset as well, fresh start.

Anyway, subwoofer boomy is manageable and blend in now, but still a bit boomy for my taste. What I did, I increase the crossover low-pass to 120 Hz and also sensitivity to 5.0 VRMS when doing the calibration. After that, I turn back the low pass to 50Hz and sensitivity back to around 0.3-1.0 VRMS

My current settings:
Sub: 1
Subsonic Filter: 20Hz, 12dB/octave
Sub/Front Crossover: 70Hz/24dB/octave
Front: 2-way
Front Mid/High Crossover: 2700hz/24dB/octave
Center: 1-way
Center High Pass Crossover: 200Hz/24dB/octave
Sides : 1-way
Sides Crossover: 120Hz/24dB/octave
Rear: None

calibration volume -23 and then back to -6 for normal listening.

The 31 band EQ, tweak in 50hz-100hz?



fourthmeal said:


> Wait, so you added a sub and ran that to one of the MS8's output channels. You then recalibrated, right? During the calibration process, specifically the white noise part, you want to sub to output at basically the same as the rest of the system. You do not want to add more crossovers in the path if the MS-8 is in control. You want to then let the system calibrate, and after that, tweak the 31 band EQ to suit your hoped-for response. Flat-out, the MS-8 will make it a little boomy sometimes, but you can adjust that. Just don't make the MS-8 fight around another crossover in the amp.


----------



## Lanson

Yeah just tweak EQ to taste. Remember there's also the "subwoofer" slider, which is a bass shelf type volume control, with the shelf set at 65hz if I recall. That means that the sub AND the other speakers that play up to 65hz (if any) will be adjusted with that slider. A few ticks down might make you happy.



Technous said:


> Yes, I did and done the factory reset as well, fresh start.
> 
> Anyway, subwoofer boomy is manageable and blend in now, but still a bit boomy for my taste. What I did, I increase the crossover low-pass to 120 Hz and also sensitivity to 5.0 VRMS when doing the calibration. After that, I turn back the low pass to 50Hz and sensitivity back to around 0.3-1.0 VRMS
> 
> My current settings:
> Sub: 1
> Subsonic Filter: 20Hz, 12dB/octave
> Sub/Front Crossover: 70Hz/24dB/octave
> Front: 2-way
> Front Mid/High Crossover: 2700hz/24dB/octave
> Center: 1-way
> Center High Pass Crossover: 200Hz/24dB/octave
> Sides : 1-way
> Sides Crossover: 120Hz/24dB/octave
> Rear: None
> 
> calibration volume -23 and then back to -6 for normal listening.
> 
> The 31 band EQ, tweak in 50hz-100hz?


----------



## NBusiness

How do I do a setup in a vehicle with no CD player


----------



## USS Enterprise

NBusiness said:


> How do I do a setup in a vehicle with no CD player


You can rip the audio file off the disc, but MUST use a lossless format. Somewhere in the manual it says it.

Just rip it to a wav. Do NOT convert to an mp3 or similar.


----------



## NBusiness

USS Enterprise said:


> You can rip the audio file off the disc, but MUST use a lossless format. Somewhere in the manual it says it.
> 
> Just rip it to a wav. Do NOT convert to an mp3 or similar.



Anyone know where I can download the file? I don't have the cd.

Thanks


----------



## KillerBox

In case no one knows where you can download the files, I will try to rip the CD for you. What format is the best?


----------



## Jscoyne2

So like, I feel that the ms8 is such a headache. I dont own one but from reading this thread and others. The effort and time spent dealing with issues created by trying to troubleshoot something you only have a small bit of control over, is better spent with a mic and a fully tunable dsp.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


----------



## I800C0LLECT

As long as you use good install practices and have good locations it should be a cinch. After that, make certain you don't have any crazy level matching issues. It can be very sensitive to gain problems. I also find that using a lower volume for sweeps produces better and consistent results.

The only other issues are rca related. It works so well in my application I'm thinking of stocking my shelves for the long haul



Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## Jscoyne2

I800C0LLECT said:


> As long as you use good install practices and have good locations it should be a cinch. After that, make certain you don't have any crazy level matching issues. It can be very sensitive to gain problems. I also find that using a lower volume for sweeps produces better and consistent results.
> 
> The only other issues are rca related. It works so well in my application I'm thinking of stocking my shelves for the long haul
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


Seems to have alot of bass setting issues, especially in higher spl areas.

Idk, guess id have to try it to really criticize it. 

Before you buy abunch, wait till audiofrogs dsp comes out. Might or might not have something revolutionary or amazing. 

Also look into Diraclive from minidsp. I think thats the way of the future tbh

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Good points! I've been waiting on the AF piece. The apl1(i think) looks very interesting too.

I haven't had the qc issues others have. I'm more confident in the ms-8 since guys like Erin didn't seem to have issues. It's definitely a head scratcher in some applications

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## Jscoyne2

I800C0LLECT said:


> Good points! I've been waiting on the AF piece. The apl1(i think) looks very interesting too.
> 
> I haven't had the qc issues others have. I'm more confident in the ms-8 since guys like Erin didn't seem to have issues. It's definitely a head scratcher in some applications
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


So this is a subject i know very little about but from what i understand i think..

The apl1 uses Fir filters while the diraclive uses a hybrid between iir and fir filters. The ability to pretty much use a one time 6 point sweep to instantly correct even huge dips in FR is absolutely amazing. 

https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-24

Read the user manual and set up. Friggin awesome little thing. 

Read the technical links on the bottom of the page. Vvv

https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/product-line-summary

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


----------



## Elgrosso

Not sure the APL1 is only FIR, there's a secret sauce there. But is sure works very well, even if it the process can be a bit cumbersome I agree.
I got the ddrc24 recently to test Dirac in car, not plugged yet but once my speakers re-installed I'll give report!


----------



## Lanson

Jscoyne2 said:


> So like, I feel that the ms8 is such a headache. I dont own one but from reading this thread and others. The effort and time spent dealing with issues created by trying to troubleshoot something you only have a small bit of control over, is better spent with a mic and a fully tunable dsp.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


Except for the absolutely exceptional center and surround processing it has, I agree. 

I'm STILL waiting patiently for someone to make a decent center-surround able dsp (at a fair price.) For now I'm getting excellent results with an MS-8 and some quality time with the EQ and REW, and of course final tune by ear. But it sounds great. 

The Hertz H8 is center-surround capable, but there's like one line of info about it and nobody uses it, so I have no idea what it can or can't do. I'd kill for a MiniDSP unit with a center/surround algorithm plugin that worked, like a more capable 6x8 or better would be good.


----------



## OldNewb

What are we missing without the center and surround on standard CD music?


----------



## Jscoyne2

Elgrosso said:


> Not sure the APL1 is only FIR, there's a secret sauce there. But is sure works very well, even if it the process can be a bit cumbersome I agree.
> I got the ddrc24 recently to test Dirac in car, not plugged yet but once my speakers re-installed I'll give report!


Definitely interested to see how that goes. Id liked to see a direct comparison between dirac and apl1 someday

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


----------



## NBusiness

KillerBox said:


> In case no one knows where you can download the files, I will try to rip the CD for you. What format is the best?



What a nice guy thank you sir 

As for format I guess wav is the way to go


----------



## Elgrosso

Jscoyne2 said:


> Definitely interested to see how that goes. Id liked to see a direct comparison between dirac and apl1 someday
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


Sure I'd like to compare easily. 
Comparing the tuning process, measurements etc will be easy.
But to do some sort of A/B testing might be hard.
Still studying the question on how to install them in the same system, with the same constrains (both digital in, both analog out etc), while being able to switch fast.


----------



## KillerBox

NBusiness said:


> Anyone know where I can download the file? I don't have the cd.
> 
> Thanks


https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2e4FYsqKvJLdXBMYTFCakNHbmM/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2e4FYsqKvJLa1h4Nml0SzF4T1k/view?usp=sharing

The above files are the only files that I found on the JBL CD. Can someone tell us if it is just one 35.23 (white noise sounding) tract?


----------



## Lanson

OldNewb said:


> What are we missing without the center and surround on standard CD music?


You are missing a solid 2+ seat stage. You can tune all you want for the driver but with stereo 2 channel, usually the passenger gets a bunk tune. Andy has mentioned this several times, and said (paraphrasing here) that he likes the passenger to hear good sound too. Made an especially good point of this with his "El ******" vid.

My passenger (wife) is now as picky about sound as me thanks to my 2 seat tunes.


----------



## OldNewb

Gothca. I've never even considered a 2 seat tune. Didn't think it was even possible


----------



## Lanson

JBL Setup file on the right, 

harman - old - MS-8


----------



## double_b

I have looked through this thread and others but I just want to confirm.....has there been anyone who has found a place to buy a replacement cable for the display unit or found an alternative???

I have a new in box unit that I had intended to install, then recently changed my mind on what I want to do so I was taking pictures to put it up for sale and realized the display cable is missing. Uggggh. 

I emailed JBL but I am pretty sure I know the answer I am going to get.


----------



## spitfire91104

After I posted this I realized it is probably better just to post this here instead. 


Just purchased the Ms-8, Boston Acoustic spz60's as well as BA's Imaging tweeters. Also got a zapco 150.2LX amp to power them. Going for sq regarding setting these up. Not worried about spl as these will get plenty loud for me.(Currently using the step down from these the pro60se which have the same tweets just different woofers and crossovers).


I was contemplating going active and running both sets of tweets off of the ms8 while running the woofers off the zapco amp. Would running the ms8 in 3way mode be ok as long as I set the appropriate crossover points for the 2 different sets of tweets? Or does the 3way setting require an actual mid driver?

Wondering if this setup would work well as the tweeters are all 8ohms which puts the max rms power from the ms8 at around 9w. I keep finding different opinions on how much power tweeters really need. 

I'm hoping to take advantage of everything the ms8 has to offer and have come to the conclusion going active is the way to go. I just don't want have to buy a new amp if it's not needed.

Sorry for the long post.

Thanks Mike


----------



## Lanson

My take is, power nothing off the MS-8's amps. I've done it, and I don't like it. It is ALWAYS the weak point of the system, I've learned. That said, a very simple 4 channel mini-amp comes to mind for those tweeters. You could use 2 channels out from the MS-8, and split that to 4 channels of tweeters. Doing so, you could adjust the gain individually per pair, which means you could, before the MS-8 calibrates, get the basic target volume from the tweeter pair for each one. You may find you don't need the imaging tweeters, but then again, maybe you just need them at say -6dB down from the main ones, or who knows. But with a small 4ch amp in there, you'd at least have the power to control that.

I'm running a tiny 4 channel Power Acoustik amp that I've cut and spliced some custom RCA's to get 4 channels out of 2 output from the MS-8, and its working beautifully for my rear doors and rear d-pillar speaker setup.



spitfire91104 said:


> After I posted this I realized it is probably better just to post this here instead.
> 
> 
> Just purchased the Ms-8, Boston Acoustic spz60's as well as BA's Imaging tweeters. Also got a zapco 150.2LX amp to power them. Going for sq regarding setting these up. Not worried about spl as these will get plenty loud for me.(Currently using the step down from these the pro60se which have the same tweets just different woofers and crossovers).
> 
> 
> I was contemplating going active and running both sets of tweets off of the ms8 while running the woofers off the zapco amp. Would running the ms8 in 3way mode be ok as long as I set the appropriate crossover points for the 2 different sets of tweets? Or does the 3way setting require an actual mid driver?
> 
> Wondering if this setup would work well as the tweeters are all 8ohms which puts the max rms power from the ms8 at around 9w. I keep finding different opinions on how much power tweeters really need.
> 
> I'm hoping to take advantage of everything the ms8 has to offer and have come to the conclusion going active is the way to go. I just don't want have to buy a new amp if it's not needed.
> 
> Sorry for the long post.
> 
> Thanks Mike


----------



## spitfire91104

You talking about the small micro class d ones? Will I lose any sound quality going to a different amp for the tweets vs the zapco? Either way I would be giving them clean power just don't want to take a step back with the actual quality of the output unless the extra processing makes up for it.

Wouldn't I want each tweeter on a separate channel though so the ms-8 is able to time align and eq for each one? Only reason I say this is because the imaging tweets are going be like 2-3ft above the others.

The only reason I purchased the imaging tweets is to install them in my stock location while mounting the other tweets in my kick panel facing up towards the seat belt. General rule with these speakers is to not have the mid and tweets more than 6" from each other. These handle 8khz and above.

Could always sell the 2ch zapco and buy the 6ch version and run everything off that but that would cost another $500 after selling my current. Don't know if the difference in amps is actually worth that.


Thanks, Mike


----------



## Lanson

Yes, a small micro amp. But when we're talking about losing sound quality, we're comparing against the MS-8 on its own which is decidedly worse than a basic amp's outputs. Sure, better amps will do better, but I was just comparing the MS-8 vs. anything else. You can buy high quality micro amps with low distortion and great sound. You might pay more than I did but then again, I'm using bigger amps for my main speakers and the micro amp for my rear / D-pillar combo, so its not like they are under scrutiny like the front stage would be. 

Regarding time alignment, yes you'd want each tweeter on a separate channel, but the MS-8 doesn't have provisions to handle this on its own. There's tweeter/mid/woofer in a 3-way config, or tweeter/woofer on a 2-way config. There's nothing you can do with the MS-8 to process those extra tweeters. Here's the thing though, tweeters don't queue their image as much with time alignment as SPL, to our ears. Yes, time-alignment is helpful but SPL-matching them is the more dominant factor. If you really want those two extra tweeters in the system, consider the 2 into 4 thing I was explaining before to do it, otherwise just build the system without them.



spitfire91104 said:


> You talking about the small micro class d ones? Will I lose any sound quality going to a different amp for the tweets vs the zapco? Either way I would be giving them clean power just don't want to take a step back with the actual quality of the output unless the extra processing makes up for it.
> 
> Wouldn't I want each tweeter on a separate channel though so the ms-8 is able to time align and eq for each one? Only reason I say this is because the imaging tweets are going be like 2-3ft above the others.
> 
> The only reason I purchased the imaging tweets is to install them in my stock location while mounting the other tweets in my kick panel facing up towards the seat belt. General rule with these speakers is to not have the mid and tweets more than 6" from each other. These handle 8khz and above.
> 
> Could always sell the 2ch zapco and buy the 6ch version and run everything off that but that would cost another $500 after selling my current. Don't know if the difference in amps is actually worth that.
> 
> 
> Thanks, Mike


----------



## USS Enterprise

OK. I have no idea what my MS-8 is doing, but it's driving me nuts.

3- way setup only - no sub, no center, no sides, no rears.

Midbass HP- 60hz @24

MB to mid - 250 @24

Mid to tweet - 4k @ 24

Factory deck.

As a test, single amp, 6 channel, 30 watts to each speaker. All gains as low as they go. Not turned up, not even a hair. So they should all be identical.

I've run the input setup, it finds signal at 24 on the volume out of 35. 23 gives low signal, 24 finds it perfect.
Incidentally, 24 is the point at which the factory deck rolls the bass out of the signal. 23 it's there, 24 it is not.

Ran the calibration at -30 volume on the ms-8. (although tried -35 , -40 , and -25 with the same results)

Must've done it a hundred times.

No matter what I do, the ms-8 is throwing a massive amount of bass through the left midbass only. Not just in volume, but it's also highly distorted.

The right midbass plays fine. It's just the left. Everything else is fine. The volume is good, the tonality is great otherwise, it sounds fantastic. Except for the left midbass.

Even with the volume at 1 - yes I mean 1 - you can hear the distortion of the bass/midbass being played through the speaker. It's not the speaker, I swapped it and the problem remains.
It's not the amp, I swapped it too. Problem remains. (previously it was a 2- channel for MB, 4 chan for mid/tweets. I put the 6-channel in to have all channels apples to apples)

If I turn off processing on the ms-8, it sounds great. No distortion, nothing. All it's lacking is the great tonality that the ms-8 calculated. Turn processing back on? Distortion.

All I can figure is that the ms-8 is seeing the lack of bass at the volume 24 and compensating for this lack by highly boosting it. And when music is played, well under 24, the factory radio is also adding it back, leading to a double-boosting. If that makes sense.
But if so, then why only the left midbass? Is it because I am only calibrating for the driver's seat?

Of course, I have no idea if that is even a feasible answer.

If not, then what may be happening? And how do I resolve it?

I suppose I COULD skip the input signal calibration, and go straight to the input selection screens. My high level inputs ARE full range. But the factory deck HIGHLY boost the low end and I wanted that processed out to as flat as possible.

Also, I have one other, minor issue (I think).
I can't adjust anything on the ms-8 without the microphone connected. It gives me a message of error - connect microphone.

Even after calibrating, if I turn off car, unplug mic, and turn car back on, it gives me the error. So I turn car off, plug mic in, turn car on, and it wants to run the calibration again. Every single time. So it seems like it's not holding the calibration after I turn the car off.

Strange.


----------



## FordEscape

USS Enterprise said:


> ....Also, I have one other, minor issue (I think).
> I can't adjust anything on the ms-8 without the microphone connected. It gives me a message of error - connect microphone.
> 
> Even after calibrating, if I turn off car, unplug mic, and turn car back on, it gives me the error. So I turn car off, plug mic in, turn car on, and it wants to run the calibration again. Every single time. So it seems like it's not holding the calibration after I turn the car off....


IMHO that's far from minor and should have been the 'lead story' in your post. No idea what's the problem but IMHO indicative of something major wrong in your MS-8 processing section.

Has this unit _ever_ performed correctly for you or is this your first/only installation since buying it?


USS Enterprise said:


> ....All I can figure is that the ms-8 is seeing the lack of bass at the volume 24 and compensating for this lack by highly boosting it. And when music is played, well under 24, the factory radio is also adding it back, leading to a double-boosting. If that makes sense......


Just to 'test' your theory .... have you tried leaving the HU volume at 22-23 (yeah, "low") and calibrating from there to see what happens with the bass?

OR, leaving the HU volume at your calibration level of 24 and adjusting the system volume on the MS-8?

BTW, what car / OEM HU is this?


----------



## Lanson

I think its the lack of a sub that's really pissing it off. It will boost (too far) to get to its target curve, and that curve has a ton of low frequency output.

You could try running a very highly crossed "sub" output as your midbass, and have your midrange / tweeter as normal. And run a very high infrasonic filter.

That's the only thing I can think of.


----------



## FordEscape

fourthmeal said:


> I think its the lack of a sub that's really pissing it off. It will boost (too far) to get to its target curve, and that curve has a ton of low frequency output...


Interesting idea but IMHO doesn't fit with the experience of many (including myself) that have at one time or another used the MS-8 without a sub. Methinks (could be waaay off) that the MS-8 ignores the target curve at frequencies lower than the lowest speaker XO configured in the system. I.e. I don't think it tries to 'force the impossible'. Maybe I misunderstand what you're saying.

BUT, along your line of thinking, IF the installed midbass (his lowest reproducing driver) can't actually 'deliver' down to the 60Hz implied by the chosen front HP setting ..... could that cause the MS-8 to 'overboost' at/approaching 60Hz as you suggest? I.e. the MS-8 expects to 'hear' output at 60Hz based on the speaker setup but isn't getting what it 'wants to hear' during acoustic calibration even though trying to compensate to the max. Maybe try raising that front HP setting to the max 100Hz, then recalibrating, to see if there's improvement insofar as the 'noise'? If yes, then start easing the front HP setting down until the problem is encountered again (a way to find the 'limiting point' of the midbass drivers, which might be different L&R)?


----------



## Lanson

FordEscape said:


> ... *IF the installed midbass (his lowest reproducing driver) can't actually 'deliver' down to the 60Hz implied by the chosen front HP setting ..... could that cause the MS-8 to 'overboost' at/approaching 60Hz as you suggest? I.e. the MS-8 expects to 'hear' output at 60Hz based on the speaker setup but isn't getting what it 'wants to hear' during acoustic calibration even though trying to compensate to the max.*



That's exactly what I'm thinking is going on. The 60 hz cross point would be quite loud on the target curve. See JBL's MS-8 target curve here:









Taken from an excellent thread
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq.html

So if you don't have a sub but are trying to play sub frequencies, you're gonna have a bad time with the MS-8.

My advice, before tuning with the MS-8, play test tones through REW or whatever and see what the speakers handle at a given SPL. Tone through a sine wave down in frequency, see if there's a point where those speakers can't hang, and consider that the true crossover point of that speaker down low. Remember that the MS-8 will do damn near anything to get to that target curve, including screwing everything up along the way to get it, like boosting to maximum leaving you with very little headroom to add gain. It can't fix a hole.

That's my take on it.


----------



## FordEscape

^^^^ Thank you for the continuing education.

Re: losing configuration/calibration with power-off .... is there a 'motherboard button-battery' in the MS-8 or does it use zero-power Non-Volatile RAM to save the calibration settings? (never cracked mine open)


----------



## OldNewb

I found out a guy at work has one of these in his BMW. I guess it's the go to DSP for bimmers. 

Anyway he said he has to add 5db of boost in the midbass to get the kick back in it. 80-200hz. How much EQ leadway does this thing have?


----------



## t3sn4f2

FordEscape said:


> ^^^^ Thank you for the continuing education.
> 
> Re: losing configuration/calibration with power-off .... is there a 'motherboard button-battery' in the MS-8 or does it use zero-power Non-Volatile RAM to save the calibration settings? (never cracked mine open)


Nope, no battery. Here's mine.


----------



## USS Enterprise

FordEscape said:


> ^^^^ Thank you for the continuing education.
> 
> Re: losing configuration/calibration with power-off .... is there a 'motherboard button-battery' in the MS-8 or does it use zero-power Non-Volatile RAM to save the calibration settings? (never cracked mine open)


I looked at as many gut pics of the ms-8 I could find, and can not find any button battery on it. However all pics in google or on forums only show the top of the board. Something else must be causing the issue, but i'm not too worried about it - yet.
I'm gonna double check my wiring, and see if I can find a fault there.

As far as the questions I was asked, yes, it worked fine previously. Not sure why the difference.

I have tried to run the input level calibration at 23, it just says low signal. Anything under 24 it just doesn't like.
Again, I could skip the step, as the high level output from the deck is full range, but I would lose the flattening of the stock signal. One of the huge benefits of using an ms-8 in the first place.

It makes sense that it may be boosting the bass due to trying to reach it's target curve, as suggested.
In fact, if I go into the tone controls, where I can adjust sub, mid, or highs, if I lower sub, it sure does cut a lot of this overbearing bass out, leaving midbass that more closely matches the right midbass.

As a test, I reset the midbass HP at 20 instead of 60, and holy hell, the issue is compounded tenfold! NASTY distortion ans HUGE boosting.

Which again leads me to the question - why only the left midbass?
I think it's a combination of 2 things -

1. I am ONLY tuned for the driver seat. I skip any measuring after the ms-8 does it's four measurements for the driver's seat. Once that seat is done, I'm done. Therefore, as it's emphasizing the driver's seat, it makes sense it'd boost that sides driver as well.

2. An install issue.
I previously made a post regarding a nasty midbass resonance after deadening. It was chalked up to a lessened lower response due to less actual resonance/vibration due tot he deadening.
However, after thinking about it last night, I realized something. The "resonance" issue is only in the driver's door.

Even without the ms-8 and using amp xo-s with no eq, my driver's door midbass resonates, and lacks low end.

My right door is FINE! Sounds perfect, no resonation, no loss of low end, nothing. Sounds great. Driver door sucks.

So I think the ms-8 is ALSO picking up this "lack" of bass, or resonation, and boosting even further based on that.

So the triple threat of the door issue, stock deck bass cutout issue, and target curve issue, are all compounding into that one speaker throwing it waaaay off.

This all make sense? If not following, let me know.

Either way, my goal now is to fix the foor issue No idea why it is. Was NOT like that prior to deadening, so something changed. Same deadener, same amount on both doors. One it worked, the other it threw off. *confused*

Not matter how we look at it, it's progress. Thanks for the input, guys. I learned a LOT!

Keep it coming, and I'll post results and progress as it is made.


----------



## Elgrosso

Btw guys, is someone here interested by an ms8 board? A bad one, I mean it doesn't power up, but no idea what's wrong. Maybe there's something to re-use?
I keep the case for something else, but if someone wants it, pay the shipping and it's yours.


----------



## FordEscape

USS Enterprise said:


> .....As a test, I reset the midbass HP at 20 instead of 60, and holy hell, the issue is compounded tenfold! NASTY distortion ans HUGE boosting......


Well that would tend to support fourthmeal's notion .... what happens when you go the other direction (max 100Hz/24dB) which is what's needed if your midbass can't 'deliver' the sub-bass frequencies (going from 60Hz to 20Hz would only aggravate the situation).

No reason to expect the L&R EQ to be symmetrical unless tuning for all seats, and even then there may be differences due to the asymmetries in the interior (steering column, dashboard etc).

[with apology, yet another tangent .... Does everyone else 'calibrate' their MS-8 for driver + passenger while alone in the car by changing seats during the acoustic calibration process? 

I have, and now I realize that's gotta be _wrong_ ... I need both front seats actually occupied to correctly 'model' the environment for that condition during acoustic calibration, especially given the position of legs relative to my in-door midbass speakers ! ]


----------



## USS Enterprise

Haven't tried 100/24db yet.

Will try this evening, as well as work on the door.

As far as calibrating for both front seats, good point! I was going to try that, but your post made me realize it'd be pointless without another person in the car.

Thanks!

EDIT:
OK. Rewired the MS-8, now it seems to be retaining settings. No idea what it was, obviously didn't like something. Whew!

ALSO - I seem to have fixed the midbass issue, mostly. I threw another 1/2 to 2/3rds of a sheet on the door. Covering spots, and doubling up in a few places. Also more than doubled the amount of deadener on the outer skin. Seemed to restore the bass that I had lost. I may just go and put a 2nd layer over the rest of the door, and do the same with the other. I probably have a good 30 sq ft left, so why not?

Now, after running the calibration, still at the 60 @24 setting, the bass seems mostly equal on both sides. (slightly more on the left still, but only slightly)

However, I seem to have introduced ANOTHER issue. After calibrating with the auto cal, my vocals are dead center dash - but so is everything else. I have no width whatsoever. None.

If I defeat processing, it all comes back, nice and wide. Processing on, narrow dead center.

The tonality is great, just no width.

Tweets in sails, mids in dash firing up at windshield, midbass in door.

Any suggestions?


----------



## Lanson

Well, are we talking processing or logic7? Because I could see logic7 being useless to you without your center and surround speakers. That should probably be turned off in your case.


----------



## USS Enterprise

Good point. I was referring to just the processing, I did not turn logic 7 off. Didn't even occur to me. I will do so and update.

Either way, it's further progress!


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Watch out for those bad recordings too. They'll cram every thing into the center as well

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## Lanson

I800C0LLECT said:


> Watch out for those bad recordings too. They'll cram every thing into the center as well
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


You are 100% correct, due to weak stereo separation and poor detail for the out of phase info the processor uses to create the believable, full stage (I assume.) Bad recordings and also very low bitrate recordings just decimate the MS-8's performance. 160kb/s is the bottom end of tolerable for me.


----------



## Raimonds

I800C0LLECT said:


> ... The apl1(i think) looks very interesting too. ...
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk





Elgrosso said:


> Not sure the APL1 is only FIR, there's a secret sauce there. But is sure works very well, even if it
> the process can be a bit cumbersome I agree.
> I got the ddrc24 recently to test Dirac in car, not plugged yet but once my speakers re-installed I'll give report!





Jscoyne2 said:


> Definitely interested to see how that goes. Id liked to see a direct comparison between dirac and apl1
> someday
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk





Elgrosso said:


> Sure I'd like to compare easily.
> Comparing the tuning process, measurements etc will be easy.
> But to do some sort of A/B testing might be hard.
> Still studying the question on how to install them in the same system, with the same constrains (both digital in, both analog
> out etc), while being able to switch fast.


Hi,
It is much easier to compare different solutions by comparing fields of use, especially in such critical and technobabble free field as pro – concert sound and recording studious. On another hand, answers on next questions may help.
Does producer offers solution directly intended for car audio? Does this solution is recognized by car audio competitors by voting for it with they multi thousand budgets?
Does such “vote” is recognized by judges of car audio competitions by high scores?


----------



## Jscoyne2

Raimonds said:


> Hi,
> It is much easier to compare different solutions by comparing fields of use, especially in such critical and technobabble free field as pro – concert sound and recording studious. On another hand, answers on next questions may help.
> Does producer offers solution directly intended for car audio? Does this solution is recognized by car audio competitors by voting for it with they multi thousand budgets?
> Does such “vote” is recognized by judges of car audio competitions by high scores?


Fair but Dirac is untested in car audio applications. Your product has been proven but there is another product using vaguely similiar methods to attain the same goals. One product isnt bad because another is good.

We just want to see whats on the market and test things for people for the future. 

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


----------



## Raimonds

It is curious but your mentioned solution was created as solution for car audio. But just for consumer car audio. You can find it in expensive car brands. But it never reaches attention in aftermarket solutions because there were no such solutions.
The producer of any solution should know better possibilities of its solution. And it will be not kept in secret if something is working very well.


----------



## FordEscape

Any possibility of keeping this thread on the topic of JBL MS-8? There's plenty of other places within this forum to have extended discussions about alternatives / other technologies.

Thanks!


----------



## Bminus

Guys I have a question,
I have a 2014 Tundra crew max. I'm running:
2 way front (Si TM65 + KAXBL TWT)
1 way center (hybrid L3SE)
1 way passive sides in the rear doors (jbl p660c set)
And 2 si BM MKIVs on the sub channel. 
I have 2 Arc KS 300.4s for all the door speakers and center. 1 is running the TM65 at 2ohm and the KAXBL TWT. The other is running the center bridged and the rear door speakers.
And a KS600.2 running the subs. 

Now here is my thought:
I can possibly trade a 300.4 for a 300.2, which would then give my TM65s double the power to work with, The center and tweeters would be run off of the other 300.4, and I could run the rear door speakers off the MS8 to make up for the 2 lost amp channels. This would also allow me to remove a set of RCAs from my wiring runs and simplify the wiring. And since my JBL P660c's have a higher sensitivity than all my other speakers (94db compared to 86-88db) the loss of power to them won't be noticeable. 
I have had some slight noise in the system as well, and I feel like running the sides directly off the MS8 may help lower my noise floor. 

Does this make sense? Is this a pointless change? 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GCVIC

Bminus - i should defer to the experts here, and i am just thinking out loud.

You will likely use logic7, given your centre speaker, so your rear/side speakers will not receive as much information as the fronts. My experience, however is its hard to make the ms8 amp work well with external amps. For example level matching for calibration will like require turning your external amp gains way down. The rears will likely be a bottleneck if you use the ms8 amp. In fact, you may be better off just not using the rears/sides. Can you fit another amp into your set up ?

I bridge a pdxf6 to ensure my front mids have lots of power. So i like what you propose. You need to think about the centre speaker, however as I understand the power and drivers for centre speaker should be fairly similar to fronts if possible. Im just wuestioning whether you will have optimal centre speaker power given the power you are proposing to provide up front?

Hopefully some of this is helpful - goodluck!


----------



## Lanson

My take is, it is potentially pointless but there's nothing wrong with your new plan other than you need to be more careful about your MS-8 master gain this way. Those rear speakers, since they will be run off the MS-8 directly, will have no other volume control except with the fader, and the master gain. That said, as long as you set your approximate gains correctly before calibration with the pink noise setup tone (each speaker should be about the same SPL, you can use a basic cheap mic or your phone with an RTA program to approximate), you should be OK.



Bminus said:


> Guys I have a question,
> I have a 2014 Tundra crew max. I'm running:
> 2 way front (Si TM65 + KAXBL TWT)
> 1 way center (hybrid L3SE)
> 1 way passive sides in the rear doors (jbl p660c set)
> And 2 si BM MKIVs on the sub channel.
> I have 2 Arc KS 300.4s for all the door speakers and center. 1 is running the TM65 at 2ohm and the KAXBL TWT. The other is running the center bridged and the rear door speakers.
> And a KS600.2 running the subs.
> 
> Now here is my thought:
> I can possibly trade a 300.4 for a 300.2, which would then give my TM65s double the power to work with, The center and tweeters would be run off of the other 300.4, and I could run the rear door speakers off the MS8 to make up for the 2 lost amp channels. This would also allow me to remove a set of RCAs from my wiring runs and simplify the wiring. And since my JBL P660c's have a higher sensitivity than all my other speakers (94db compared to 86-88db) the loss of power to them won't be noticeable.
> I have had some slight noise in the system as well, and I feel like running the sides directly off the MS8 may help lower my noise floor.
> 
> Does this make sense? Is this a pointless change?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bminus

GCVIC said:


> For example level matching for calibration will like require turning your external amp gains way down. The rears will likely be a bottleneck if you use the ms8 amp. In fact, you may be better off just not using the rears/sides. Can you fit another amp into your set up
> 
> 
> 
> Im just wuestioning whether you will have optimal centre speaker power given the power you are proposing to provide up front?
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully some of this is helpful - goodluck!




My center is bridged at 4ohms to one of the 300.4s. So it has the potential for 350watts rms  

I literally just read about the sides limiting the power of the fronts on the MS8 FAQ thread. So I guess that would definitely be the limiting factor here... 

Thanks for the input guys it's greatly appreciated. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bminus

fourthmeal said:


> My take is, it is potentially pointless but there's nothing wrong with your new plan other than you need to be more careful about your MS-8 master gain this way. Those rear speakers, since they will be run off the MS-8 directly, will have no other volume control except with the fader, and the master gain. That said, as long as you set your approximate gains correctly before calibration with the pink noise setup tone (each speaker should be about the same SPL, you can use a basic cheap mic or your phone with an RTA program to approximate), you should be OK.



I would definitely match the levels with the pink noise setup tone. That thing is really handy lol. 

Maybe I need to just plug the sides up to the MS8 and see how they sound temporarily before making an amp switch... 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elgrosso

Hi Raymonds!
I do have some more related questions, but maybe not the place of a forum. Will send email.




FordEscape said:


> Any possibility of keeping this thread on the topic of JBL MS-8? There's plenty of other places within this forum to have extended discussions about alternatives / other technologies.
> 
> Thanks!


A 300 pages thread? 

Btw, still have the bad board, nobody wants it? I'll just trash it then.


----------



## Raimonds

FordEscape said:


> Any possibility of keeping this thread on the topic of JBL MS-8? There's plenty of other places within this forum to have extended discussions about alternatives / other technologies.
> 
> Thanks!


Sorry if you find some inconvenience but,
what was mentioned previously it is true for about 70% on subject of this topic also.


----------



## KillerBox

Elgrosso said:


> Btw, still have the bad board, nobody wants it? I'll just trash it then.


Don't trash it, I will take it and see what I can do with it. Please send me your PayPal address.

Thanks!


----------



## Elgrosso

Done!


----------



## Nav360

Hey guys I have a quick question/problem......

I just recently upgraded my sound system in the car from the factory speakers that were in there. Currently, running 2 tweeters, 1 center, 2 mids (front doors), 2 full range (rear doors), and a 12 in sub. Everything is running off the factory amplifier until I get the JBL-ms8 in on Monday. Also, I have a KX 1200.1 for the sub, and KX400.4 for the speakers. Now, my question is how would I go about wiring this system up to the JBL-ms8, then to the amps. I also do have the crossovers that came in the box for the front speakers. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lanson

Nav360 said:


> Hey guys I have a quick question/problem......
> 
> I just recently upgraded my sound system in the car from the factory speakers that were in there. Currently, running 2 tweeters, 1 center, 2 mids (front doors), 2 full range (rear doors), and a 12 in sub. Everything is running off the factory amplifier until I get the JBL-ms8 in on Monday. Also, I have a KX 1200.1 for the sub, and KX400.4 for the speakers. Now, my question is how would I go about wiring this system up to the JBL-ms8, then to the amps. I also do have the crossovers that came in the box for the front speakers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is a simple setup, really.

2-way front with the tweeter and mid
1 way center
1 way rear
sub

All active crossover via the MS-8, that's what makes it so good. Start with 24dB/oct crossovers, and start with conservative crossover points like 80-90hz for the front doors unless they are well-reinforced and have the ability to play lower cleanly. Tweeter-mid cross point probably in the 3 to 3.5kHz range, just guessing. Center cross at probably 300hz unless it too is a robust, powerful center speaker (and MS-8's really work well with powerful centers), rear speakers should be crossed at least 100hz, if not higher to keep the out of phase rear sound from killing the midbass from the front. Sub will cross with the mids up front automatically. Power your 4 channel amp with front tweeters and front mids, plus your sub, and I'd recommend adding a small 4ch amp down the road to power your rears and center, so the MS-8 isn't powering those directly.

Done!


----------



## Nav360

I have a complete separate amp for the sub it's a 1200w mono amp 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lanson

Nav360 said:


> I have a complete separate amp for the sub it's a 1200w mono amp
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, this is assumed. I have 4 amps in my MS-8 system, and everything is powered (some bridged), and trust me when I say it helps. The MS-8 makes a great pinch-hitter for power for a while but long-term, sound quality and volume without distortion improve with amps to each channel.


----------



## Nav360

I think you completely lost me lol..... so what speakers should I connect to my KX 400.4 (4 channel) amp? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## USS Enterprise

Hey, guys.
Reset my ms8 to factory defaults, and reran the calibration. Much better.
I regained a lot of width. Not perfect, but better than it was.
Sounds great, for only 30 watts a channel x 6.
Now that these issues seem to be out of the way, I can finally move on. And I did.
I gutted the car (again) this weekend and started on my ib baffle and amp rack/false floor.

Can't wait to get my regular amps back in.

Thanks for all the help.

BTW, I read somewhere in this thread -but can't find it again - something about if the tweeters are in the sails cover or disconnect them during the calibration to prevent losing width.

Can someone please elaborate, or at least point me back to it so I can research it more?

Thanks!


----------



## t3sn4f2

USS Enterprise said:


> Hey, guys.
> Reset my ms8 to factory defaults, and reran the calibration. Much better.
> I regained a lot of width. Not perfect, but better than it was.
> Sounds great, for only 30 watts a channel x 6.
> Now that these issues seem to be out of the way, I can finally move on. And I did.
> I gutted the car (again) this weekend and started on my ib baffle and amp rack/false floor.
> 
> Can't wait to get my regular amps back in.
> 
> Thanks for all the help.
> 
> *BTW, I read somewhere in this thread -but can't find it again - something about if the tweeters are in the sails cover or disconnect them during the calibration to prevent losing width.
> 
> Can someone please elaborate, or at least point me back to it so I can research it more?
> *
> Thanks!





Tendean17 said:


> *Measurement and Setup*
> 
> Andy Wehmeyer :
> *The deal with covering the tweeters is that ALL automatic time alignment setting algorithms look for high frequency content to determine the location of the speakers. If you use passives, then MS-8 (like all other devices) will locate the tweeter, because it has more high frequency content. Covering the tweeter causes it to locate the mid, which is where TA is most beneficial. Then, the EQ will fix the "image" at high frequencies, which is more effective anyway because we don't hear phase differences very easily at high frequencies.
> 
> Disconnecting or covering the tweeters for the first 4 measurements is definitely not correct. Only the first in each of the seats..*
> __________________________________________________ ____________
> 
> Andy Wehmeyer :
> In this case conventional "wisdom" is definitely wrong.
> 
> Crossing midbass drivers over at 45Hz isn't necessary. You don't have to do that to get bass in the front and no driver (except for a subwoofer because there's no other way to do it) should play at their resonance frequency. Speakers make the most distortion there. Your subwoofer is much better at making 45Hz than your midbass driver is, no matter what
> __________________________________________________ ____________
> 
> Tendean17 :
> _I've installed MS-8 .. been finished today .. So i'll run the processing setup. I want to ask about the position of Driver Seat and Passenger Seat for cars with the Right Steering Wheel (Driver's Seat position is on the right). No User Guide about this. I search .. never discuss about this also. Sorry if i'm wrong guys ..
> 
> When doing Acoustic Calibration / Measurement in the Drivers position in 1st measurement, where should I sit .. on the left or the right seat ?
> 
> In case on the Right Seat as Driver's Seat ..
> Driver's Seat> Acoustic Measurement 1of4> Look Forward -> Go
> Measurement 2of4> Look Forward -> Go
> Measurement 3of4> Look Driver Side Mirror (Turn my head to the Right) -> Go
> Measurement 4of4> Look Passenger Side Mirror (Turn my head to the Left) -> Go.
> And so for others Next seating position.
> 
> Is that the wrong way or it should be no problem ?
> Thanks_
> 
> acidbass303 :
> Yes it doesnt matter, i drive a right hand drive vehicle too.
> Just follow on screen prompts and look to the drivers side mirror when it asks to and the passenger's side mirror when it prompts. It takes a spatial average.
> 
> Andy Wehmeyer :
> That's why the manual and the display call it "Driver's Seat" and not "Right front Seat". This way, it's supposed to be completely seamless no matter where in the car you sit to drive. .


____


----------



## Lanson

Nav360 said:


> I think you completely lost me lol..... so what speakers should I connect to my KX 400.4 (4 channel) amp?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


With 4 channels, power the front mids and front tweeters.

But as I was saying, I recommend you add another 4 channel amp, something small and simple but clean output, to later power the center and rear doors. This will help.


----------



## Nav360

Won't the tweeters be powered from the crossover if installed in between? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## josby

kevinduckworth said:


> Can anyone share their experience with the MS-8 in dealing with Chrysler's "Upgraded Alpine" systems that have a center speaker?
> It is apparent that the factory center contains a lot of info in both music & navigational voice prompts, as well as hands-free speakerphone.


I couldn't find where anyone replied. Did you ever find an answer? I'm facing the same issue - the shop manual for my Civic has a diagram (attached) showing several audio types (e.g. Nav guidance) that only come through the center channel.

I know I could run the factory center output to a separate small speaker hidden somewhere, but I'd rather not if I don't have to. But I'm not sure how the MS-8 would handle that center signal during the input calibration. Something I read makes me think it will view any mono signal as being a sub signal.


----------



## Lanson

Nav360 said:


> Won't the tweeters be powered from the crossover if installed in between?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The entire joy of the MS-8 is to run crossover-less if possible. The MS-8 has very powerful filters to do all crossover duty, and you need to let it do its thing. Everything active from the MS-8 if you can. If you run out of channels (say doing a 3-way front plus 2-way center plus 4 channel rear setup like I had in a build recently), then you add passive crossovers or channel splitting, to solve the issue. But if you just have 8 channels worth of speakers to power, keep it simple and let the MS-8 handle everything directly.

Nav, you are over-thinking this.


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## Lanson

josby said:


> I couldn't find where anyone replied. Did you ever find an answer? I'm facing the same issue - the shop manual for my Civic has a diagram (attached) showing several audio types (e.g. Nav guidance) that only come through the center channel.
> 
> I know I could run the factory center output to a separate small speaker hidden somewhere, but I'd rather not if I don't have to. But I'm not sure how the MS-8 would handle that center signal during the input calibration. Something I read makes me think it will view any mono signal as being a sub signal.


On mine, I just wired the center as an input to the MS8. I recommend doing the same. It will understand how to use it when you do your initial setup and tune. For me, it went like this:

Factory head unit -- Factory amp in the back -- MS-8 inputs both front woofers, both front tweeters, and center -- MS-8 outputs to all my amps 

I faded the head unit full-forward and calibrated after balancing everything with the MS-8 pink noise. In my case since I had it, I used REW and my calibrated mic.


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## Nav360

I'm just trying to avoid buying another 4 channel amp 


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## Lanson

Nav360 said:


> I'm just trying to avoid buying another 4 channel amp
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I get that, but avoiding = compromise. I'm not saying go out and buy one now, I'm saying you'll probably want one to get the most out of your system. The MS-8 CAN power stuff directly but I never recommend you keep it that way. The chip-amps in the MS-8 don't sound as good, IMO. At least when I start pushing my system. Clearly at lower volumes, everything is good but it is easy to clip the MS-8's onboard power.


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## Nav360

Also looking at the car wiring diagram for my car, it doesn't show any wires listed for the tweeters on the factory amp harnesss... 


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## josby

fourthmeal said:


> On mine, I just wired the center as an input to the MS8. I recommend doing the same. It will understand how to use it when you do your initial setup and tune. For me, it went like this:
> 
> Factory head unit -- Factory amp in the back -- MS-8 inputs both front woofers, both front tweeters, and center -- MS-8 outputs to all my amps


Thanks! That is the same wiring setup I am thinking for my car. I checked your build log and saw you initially used the factory sub output too, but got better results without it. I think I will try mine both ways too.

Out of curiosity, do you know what sounds were definitely center-only in your factory setup, and where do they steer to now that you have the MS-8 in? E.g. if your nav audio was center-only, is it still center-only or does it come out out left, right, and center now?


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## Lanson

Nav360 said:


> Also looking at the car wiring diagram for my car, it doesn't show any wires listed for the tweeters on the factory amp harnesss...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You'll want to wire directly in most cases. Sometimes that wire (which is also connected to the midbass) is good to keep for the tweeter, and disconnect from the midbass, run a fresh wire to that (since it would benefit from a bigger gauge.)


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## Lanson

josby said:


> Thanks! That is the same wiring setup I am thinking for my car. I checked your build log and saw you initially used the factory sub output too, but got better results without it. I think I will try mine both ways too.
> 
> Out of curiosity, do you know what sounds were definitely center-only in your factory setup, and where do they steer to now that you have the MS-8 in? E.g. if your nav audio was center-only, is it still center-only or does it come out out left, right, and center now?


I didn't really listen prior to the MS-8 installation but it sounded mostly like the front speakers in general (L/C/R together) played everything about the nav, bluetooth, etc. I say that because it was a little boomy and I know that center speaker doesn't play low like that. With the MS-8, it is centered well, and easy to hear. Basically it works as expected. And yes, with the sub connected, the system boomed and distorted way too soon, you're right.


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## Nav360

So If I'm understanding this correctly I would have only 6 channels on the Input side, and 8 output channels. (Since the tweeters don't have an channel) 


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## Lanson

Nav360 said:


> So If I'm understanding this correctly I would have only 6 channels on the Input side, and 8 output channels. (Since the tweeters don't have an channel)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Input side, you only need two unless your system has a center channel or something. You need a complete left channel input and complete right channel input. Your outputs and inputs don't need to match at all. The MS-8 generates a sound field from just two channel input.


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## OldNewb

I'm interested in the piece but I'm curious how to make use of all the output channels for 7.1. Would you have to use nothing but point source speakers? Like a 6.5 coax in the A-Pillar, center, rear side, and C-Pillar?


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## Lanson

OldNewb said:


> I'm interested in the piece but I'm curious how to make use of all the output channels for 7.1. Would you have to use nothing but point source speakers? Like a 6.5 coax in the A-Pillar, center, rear side, and C-Pillar?


7.1 assumes you're interested in side AND rear speakers.

IMO, not much good comes from this vs. 5.1 in a car, assuming 2 channel input for sound. If you want, you can combine the rear side and C-pillars with a 4 channel amp, feeding in 2 channels from the MS-8. That would form a "matrixed" or pseudo-7.1. I did this with my Durango build, using rear doors and rearmost D-pillar speakers together. I used the crossovers built into the amp to control the D-pillar (small 3.5" speakers) crossover point higher than the bigger door speakers, dropped the gains on those 3.5's since they were more for ambiance, and then let the MS-8 calibrate that. It works perfectly!


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## Nav360

Took the factory amp out today..... I have 2 plugs that came out of it, which one would I tap into for input, and output?































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## rain27

fourthmeal said:


> Input side, you only need two unless your system has a center channel or something. You need a complete left channel input and complete right channel input. Your outputs and inputs don't need to match at all. The MS-8 generates a sound field from just two channel input.


It would need to be a full range signal, though, correct? Some factory decks don't send a full signal to all channels (or any). I believe the latest gen base model Accord cut off the lower frequencies at the deck instead of at the speaker.


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## josby

rain27 said:


> It would need to be a full range signal, though, correct? Some factory decks don't send a full signal to all channels (or any). I believe the latest gen base model Accord cut off the lower frequencies at the deck instead of at the speaker.


Rolls off, not cuts off, actually. My last car was a '15 Accord and the attached image is some measurements I did (all at the speaker wire, not acoustic measurements with a mic). The green and purple lines are the deck's output (different volume levels), and the orange and yellow are the same through an MS-8 after its input correction. And the cyan is after I did some tweaking with the 31-band EQ to see how close to flat I could get it.

I think most factory decks, if they do any manipulation like that, will leave enough of the original signal for the MS-8 to bring its level back up.


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## Nav360

I should've put this is a 2015 sonata with infinity audio, and NAV


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## Bminus

fourthmeal said:


> I faded the head unit full-forward and calibrated after balancing everything with the MS-8 pink noise. In my case since I had it, I used REW and my calibrated mic.



Will this affect anything with an aftermarker headunit?
I only have my aftermarket headunits front RCAs going to the MS8s inputs. 
Would I be correct in thinking that this would add some additional head room to the system since the headunit would be feeding a stronger signal to the MS8?


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## Lanson

Nav360 said:


> Took the factory amp out today..... I have 2 plugs that came out of it, which one would I tap into for input, and output?
> 
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> 
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> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


At first glance it looks like you want to try tapping the outputs of the center, the driver's woofer, and passenger woofer (all connector 2)

HOWEVER if the MS-8 complains of not getting a full signal, those mid-range outputs from connector 1 may be necessary. If you're in doubt, I recommend testing with a barrier strip or some other temporary way to connect things, and test the setup.


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## Lanson

rain27 said:


> It would need to be a full range signal, though, correct?  Some factory decks don't send a full signal to all channels (or any). I believe the latest gen base model Accord cut off the lower frequencies at the deck instead of at the speaker.


That's definitely true, but as Josby well-explained, its a roll-off and not a cut-off, there's really no such thing as a true cut-off in audio because we're talking waveforms here, so filtering them can't be a 90 degree slope.

Anyway if that were the case to the point where the MS-8 is unable to perform, add in the speakers that end up making it full-range, and try again.


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## Lanson

Bminus said:


> Will this affect anything with an aftermarker headunit?
> I only have my aftermarket headunits front RCAs going to the MS8s inputs.
> Would I be correct in thinking that this would add some additional head room to the system since the headunit would be feeding a stronger signal to the MS8?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In this example, you'd likely want to SKIP the entire head unit calibration process, and assume the aftermarket head unit is outputting flat. Its not a stronger signal, though. One could say it is lower distortion and potentially more accurate (flat), and of course if you have an aftermarket head unit, best to take advantage of the lower distortion from the RCA output. I've run the MS-8 with aftermarket decks (just input 2 channels in, that's it) and its GREAT.


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## FordEscape

fourthmeal said:


> ... HOWEVER if the MS-8 complains of not getting a full signal.....


Seeking education, not arguing ..... where/when in the MS-8 calibration process does it give any indication that it is not receiving a full-spectrum signal? (or maybe I'm misunderstanding you)


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## dengland

josby said:


> attached image is some measurements I did (all at the speaker wire, not acoustic measurements with a mic).


How did you accomplish the measurement? I have been worried about running speaker output into a sound card because of the possibility that it may be grounded inside of the computer. I believe speaker leg to ground would be bad for electronics driving the speaker.


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## Bminus

fourthmeal said:


> In this example, you'd likely want to SKIP the entire head unit calibration process, and assume the aftermarket head unit is outputting flat. Its not a stronger signal, though. One could say it is lower distortion and potentially more accurate (flat), and of course if you have an aftermarket head unit, best to take advantage of the lower distortion from the RCA output. I've run the MS-8 with aftermarket decks (just input 2 channels in, that's it) and its GREAT.



Sorry, Maybe I missed it, or maybe I just asked it wrong. i was just wondering if, with an aftermarket headunit, will fading all the way forward affect the output from the MS8? 
It is connected through the 2 front RCAs already. 



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## Nav360

If I tap into those wires I posted into the ms8, on the amp end where would the inputs come from? 


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## FordEscape

You don't "T-tap", you "cut" the speaker outputs and "insert" the MS8 in line between the HU and all speakers

*HU*[*OEM harness connector *speaker out]>------ (cut end *HU side*) ---->[*MS8 input*][*MS8 speaker output*]>----- (cut end *speaker side*) ----->*SPEAKER*


Any speaker outputs you don't use as MS8 inputs, just cut and abandon/insulate the 'HU side', use the 'cut end speaker side' as appropriate on an MS8 output to that speaker

All speaker feeds Must come from the MS8 or be abandoned (no speakers can remain connected to the HU as they would not get the 8ms +/- inherent delay imposed by the MS8).


If you use any external amps, they go in line between the MS8 and the speaker, with a low-level RCA cable between the MS8 and the external amp:

*HU*[*OEM harness connector *speaker out]>------ (cut end *HU side*) ---->[*MS8 input*][*MS8 RCA output*]>--(RCA)--->[*AMP*]>--- (cut end *speaker side*) ----->*SPEAKER*

For the MS8 numbered outputs 1 through 8 you can use each number for *either* speaker level output *or* RCA level output, but *never both*.


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## Nav360

Isn't the whole harness an output from the speakers? 


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## Lanson

FordEscape said:


> Seeking education, not arguing ..... where/when in the MS-8 calibration process does it give any indication that it is not receiving a full-spectrum signal? (or maybe I'm misunderstanding you)


When you run the setup which includes the input calibration step, you have to play via CD (included) or run a wav or other lossless type of file of the setup track. It is a short track which I usually put on repeat during setup. If the signal is too noisy, too low, too high, etc, the MS-8 reports that at the display. It flashes what's going on, in bursts that look to be about every second or so. The idea is if the signal isn't right, the MS-8 will not give you the "Signal OK" that you need to proceed. It can compensate a great deal, however, so unless you're measuring a tweeter output only or something, you're likely to get what you need. Ideally, you want to bring it up until you get a "Signal Hi" notice, and then bring it down a tick or two, and use that volume level on the head unit as your new "maximum". Anything above is probably distorted noticeably. Other than that, the rest is automatic with what it does to level the incoming signal and flatten it in the time domain.


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## josby

dengland said:


> How did you accomplish the measurement? I have been worried about running speaker output into a sound card because of the possibility that it may be grounded inside of the computer. I believe speaker leg to ground would be bad for electronics driving the speaker.


I used my MobilePre and this post from ErinH: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/how-articles-provided-our-members/73776-using-truerta-mobilepre-measure-frequency-response-headunits.html


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## dengland

josby said:


> I used my MobilePre and this post from ErinH: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/how-articles-provided-our-members/73776-using-truerta-mobilepre-measure-frequency-response-headunits.html


Thanks Josby


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## Nav360

Hooked up my jbl ms-8 grabbing rear seat speakers inputs, but for some reason getting "level low" message on the display. I have turned the volume in different positions, anything after 27 is "signal none"


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## Lanson

Nav360 said:


> Hooked up my jbl ms-8 grabbing rear seat speakers inputs, but for some reason getting "level low" message on the display. I have turned the volume in different positions, anything after 27 is "signal none"
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Literally, why did you did this? Nobody suggested use the rear speaker signal. You always use the front, always. You need to research, read, and listen to what people are telling you. Read the MS-8 Manual. Read the FAQ thread. Every question you've asked so far has been answered many times in this thread. I originally answered your questions but now I realize I should have just told you to read the manual and FAQ thread, because you need to understand how the thing works and not just how to hook it up.


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## Golfntob

I used the rear speakers for signal on my 2012 civic with no problems. As long as the signal is mostly full range the ms8 doesn't care. Make sure it isn't faded to front.

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## Nav360

It's centered, and faded all the way to the rear 


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## Golfntob

Nav360 said:


> It's centered, and faded all the way to the rear
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I used left, right rear and also subwoofer to make sure I got all the signal. Does yours have a factory sub? If you use the factory sub for input make sure you only use input channel 7 or 8 as the manual states.

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## Nav360

Exact same setup as you 


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## Golfntob

Same car or speakers?

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## Nav360

Same setup as in how the signal is pulled from rear speakers, and sub. 


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## Golfntob

Have you verified the sub was hooked only to channels 7 or 8? This is a common hook up mistake I've read.

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## Nav360

Yea it's connected to the speaker harness on input 7 


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## Nav360

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## Golfntob

I know when I was trying to find the correct volume for the ms8 to capture I have to go very slowly with the volume knob kind click by click letting it sit for a minute or two. 

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## Lanson

I have no idea why you guys are using rear outputs.


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## KillerBox

fourthmeal said:


> I have no idea why you guys are using rear outputs.


Don't take my word for it because my BNIB MS-8 is still sitting in a box waiting for Volkswagen to sell me a new diesel engine car. :worried:

But, I have read somewhere it says to tap your rear speakers if your GPS and bluetooth uses the rear speakers. But, that is the only reason.


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## Golfntob

Mine was just easier to grab than fronts. Used fronts on last vehicle and can hear no audible difference in this car and the last civic I had. Speakers in rear are 6.5 inch and add the sub input, Signal should be close enough to full range for the ms8 to do its magic.

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## Nav360

Anything past volume of 27, loses signal 


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## Golfntob

KillerBox said:


> Don't take my word for it because my BNIB MS-8 is still sitting in a box waiting for Volkswagen to sell me a new diesel engine car. :worried:
> 
> But, I have read somewhere it says to tap your rear speakers if your GPS and bluetooth uses the rear speakers. But, that is the only reason.


I do know if your Bluetooth phone uses the front speakers you will not be able to hear your phone... I've witnessed it. But don't talk on the phone in the car so not an issue.

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## Lanson

I've used Bluetooth many, many times in all my vehicles and I've never had that issue with the MS-8. There's a tiny lag but nothing more than phones with Bluetooth have anyway. I've done it with stock head units, and with Pioneer double dins and the MS-8 every time.

As long as the MS-8 can "hear" via its inputs what the Bluetooth is trying to output, there's no issue I've had yet.

I have run into issues with the MS-8 processing beeps and stuff (like backup beeper), but that's minor. It may also be that the inputs I did were incorrect.


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## Golfntob

Not sure why it would do that unless it's limiting the signal to prevent distortion. Sounds like may need to try the front's.....

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## Nav360

Would it just be the front doors? Or also the fr/fl hi? 


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## Golfntob

Mids and hi's to get it all.

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## Golfntob

fourthmeal said:


> I've used Bluetooth many, many times in all my vehicles and I've never had that issue with the MS-8. There's a tiny lag but nothing more than phones with Bluetooth have anyway. I've done it with stock head units, and with Pioneer double dins and the MS-8 every time.
> 
> As long as the MS-8 can "hear" via its inputs what the Bluetooth is trying to output, there's no issue I've had yet.
> 
> I have run into issues with the MS-8 processing beeps and stuff (like backup beeper), but that's minor. It may also be that the inputs I did were incorrect.


Mine works great for music but from what I understand on my civic the phone only comes out the front left and since I didn't tap that for input signal I had no output. The last two cars I've used my ms8 in it worked just fine.

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## Lanson

Golfntob said:


> Mine works great for music but from what I understand on my civic the phone only comes out the front left and since I didn't tap that for input signal I had no output. The last two cars I've used my ms8 in it worked just fine.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Exactly, if you don't tap it won't pick it up, this is true. But maybe that's why I'm surprised people would go with rear pickup. The front is usually full-range, relatively flat, and should suit the MS-8. Many other vehicles I've done with the MS-8 have been factory surround setups, so the rears would be useless. 

I guess I shouldn't be as "judgy" over it, but I really feel that you should pull the front channels unless you can absolutely prove the rear is as clean and full-range as the front. 

My first Ms-8 build ever was a 2010 Flex, and they were really new so nobody really had anything out there to work on them. So I ran every single input I could to the MS-8 and let it figure it out. The result was a good sound but because I tapped the sub in too, my volume maximum on the head unit was much lower than I would have liked. That made for a granular volume up and down, with big db jumps between each "tick" on the factory dial, since only ~1/2 the dial was usable basically. I've since learned sometimes you have to leave extra inputs out, as long as the MS-8 is happy with it during setup.


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## Nav360

When I get home tonight, I'll tap into the front doors, and also the front tweeters. It will be total 4 channels of input into the MS-8. 


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## Golfntob

Nav360 said:


> When I get home tonight, I'll tap into the front doors, and also the front tweeters. It will be total 4 channels of input into the MS-8.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That should work. Just make sure all your speakers are connected to the ms8 only not the factory amp.

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## Nav360

Finally was able to get a signal, after tapping into the front speakers. The only big problem I face now is finding out why I don't have any rear, front, subwoofer sound. Everything seems to be in the center...... When I did the input test, it gave a test tone to every speaker connected.


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## Nav360

Update: subwoofer problem solved, the wiring had to be redone internally. 


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## FordEscape

fourthmeal said:


> ....I have run into issues with the MS-8 processing beeps and stuff (like backup beeper), but that's minor. It may also be that the inputs I did were incorrect.





fourthmeal said:


> ....I guess I shouldn't be as "judgy" over it, but I really feel that you should pull the front channels unless you can absolutely prove the rear is as clean and full-range as the front.
> 
> My first Ms-8 build ever was a 2010 Flex, and they were really new so nobody really had anything out there to work on them. So I ran every single input I could to the MS-8 and let it figure it out. The result was a good sound but because I tapped the sub in too, my volume maximum on the head unit was much lower than I would have liked. That made for a granular volume up and down, with big db jumps between each "tick" on the factory dial, since only ~1/2 the dial was usable basically. I've since learned sometimes you have to leave extra inputs out, as long as the MS-8 is happy with it during setup.


Just FYI ...
The 9-speaker non-Sony audio in the SYNC2 '13-'15 Escape and Focus has 5 output channels (front, rear and center). The system uses passive XO/filters mounted on the woofer and tweeter drivers in the F&R. That HU (Audio Unit) also has three "occupancy settings" ("driver", "all seats", "rear").

The "all seats" occupancy setting is the only one that does not impose EQ, TA or phase shift between the speakers. In that setting the Front and Rear both get the same full spectrum with no timing or phase shift. This 'proven' by O-scope testing using 20Hz-20kHz sweeps and 'click tones', putting F&R outputs on the multi-channel O-scope concurrently so the plots were overlaid. 

The backup alarms are only on the rear channels, the phone and most SYNC 'voices' are only on the front. With only front OR rear outputs steered to the MS-8, the 'music audio' result is the same; the sacrifice is only the 'non-music' audio signals (tones and voices). For some of us _all_ of those are features we want to preserve.

So, for that particular system, with occupancy set for "all seats", HU output for both F *&* R (center HU output abandoned) sent to the MS-8, I get signal level OK at slightly over 3/4 of HU volume span and get full OEM functionality of _all_ non-music audible features with the same 'granularity' for each HU volume increment as OEM.

But obviously OEM systems vary, that's why IMHO it's very helpful to know what you are _actually getting_ out of each channel of your OEM system. YMMV.

In Nav360's case (2015 Sonata Infinity/Harmon) he's dealing with an OEM amp/DSP that has no option to 'defeat' the DSP. It uses active XO between the front door woofers and front sail coax mid/tweeters. There's separate amp/DSP outputs for the rear (2-way coax woofer/tweeter) and the sub. His OEM system uses digital SPDIF between the in-dash HU and the remote amp/DSP so he can't grab the signal at the HU for the MS-8, he must use the OEM amp/DSP output for the MS-8 input.


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## Nav360

The factory amp/DSP makes everything way more complicated. I've lost blind spot monitoring, and backup camera alerts due to them coming from the center. I have tried all front,rear, and sub as inputs into the MS-8. It seems like those sounds are sent through the center channel... 


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## Lanson

Nav360 said:


> The factory amp/DSP makes everything way more complicated. I've lost blind spot monitoring, and backup camera alerts due to them coming from the center. I have tried all front,rear, and sub as inputs into the MS-8. It seems like those sounds are sent through the center channel...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But you can absolutely connect CENTER in to the MS-8. We talked about that in the beginning. My exact words,
"At first glance it looks like you want to try tapping the outputs of the center, the driver's woofer, and passenger woofer (all connector 2)"

Based on what we know of the system, this should be sufficient. IF by some chance there is a lowpass filter engaging against the woofer channel, add the tweeters in. You can install a barrier strip (Radioshack type thing) and simply add more inputs, if you don't want to feed a lot of extra channels to the MS-8. But it will convert it to digital and with 8 BiQuad filters per channel it will adjust and flatten everything, including timing. 

When you're talking about sending through the center, verify with test tones that things are actually as they should be. Use an input with left-only signal and verify only left speakers are playing, and so on.


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## Nav360

Oh I completely missed that.... I kept thinking that it would mess with the center the ms8 would create using logic 7. 


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## Lanson

Nav360 said:


> Oh I completely missed that.... I kept thinking that it would mess with the center the ms8 would create using logic 7.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



No sir. It takes the whole input set, and once in the digital domain it reconstructs the field.

Its a shame you can't take in that digital signal straight from the Hyundai SPDIF, but it wouldn't have volume control if I'm not mistaken....plus the MS-8 would be the wrong DSP of choice since it is pure analog in. 

What we need in this world are more center/surround capable car audio processors, ones with digital and analog inputs. I've said this before, but its almost 2017 and we're getting more complex vehicles but worse support for them.


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## Golfntob

fourthmeal said:


> No sir. It takes the whole input set, and once in the digital domain it reconstructs the field.
> 
> Its a shame you can't take in that digital signal straight from the Hyundai SPDIF, but it wouldn't have volume control if I'm not mistaken....plus the MS-8 would be the wrong DSP of choice since it is pure analog in.
> 
> What we need in this world are more center/surround capable car audio processors, ones with digital and analog inputs. I've said this before, but its almost 2017 and we're getting more complex vehicles but worse support for them.


The Ms8 was a step in the right direction but was just abandoned by JBL. Maybe Andy and Audiofrog will one day remedy this.

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## Nav360

fourthmeal said:


> No sir. It takes the whole input set, and once in the digital domain it reconstructs the field.
> 
> Its a shame you can't take in that digital signal straight from the Hyundai SPDIF, but it wouldn't have volume control if I'm not mistaken....plus the MS-8 would be the wrong DSP of choice since it is pure analog in.
> 
> What we need in this world are more center/surround capable car audio processors, ones with digital and analog inputs. I've said this before, but its almost 2017 and we're getting more complex vehicles but worse support for them.




So true 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lanson

Golfntob said:


> The Ms8 was a step in the right direction but was just abandoned by JBL. Maybe Andy and Audiofrog will one day remedy this.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk



<Nods head>

Actually if I could have everything I ever wanted, it would be the nice people at MiniDSP working with Andy to make a true DIY solution at an affordable price. Those guys at MiniDSP have skills in this realm. I liked my CDSP 6x8, and if it were a 6x10 6x12 with center/surround logic, it would be unstoppable.


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## Nav360

Almost bit the bullet on the 6x8, but didn't want to manually tune anything. 


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## Lanson

Nav360 said:


> Almost bit the bullet on the 6x8, but didn't want to manually tune anything.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It wasn't hard, but it was time-consuming because of all the abilities. The MS-8 can be harder because you have less tools to work with (after auto-cal, you just have a single 31 band EQ, polarity and speaker gain control from the amps, so compromises must be worked out.) 

I mean you can also just MS-8 auto-cal and continue on your day, but tuning with a mic and REW after MS-8 auto-cal's has been a major point of improvement for me and my systems. I won't run an MS-8 tune without some mic seat time after, now.

But back to the elephant in the room, there are NO other viable processors with center-surround abilities besides this MS-8 and the Alpine units which aren't as capable (Dolby Pro-Logic II if I recall.)


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## Nav360

So I took your advice, and fed the center channel into the ms8. The back up volume, and blind spot noise only come when you turn on passthrough in the ms8 "secret menu". With pass through on the sounds comes from the front/center. With just Logic 7 in the "ON" position, and Active it comes from the rear speakers, but it's to a point where it's barely audible. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Marco9

Good morning everyone
Today I turned on my ms-8 after a long period of inactivity. 
I'll use it with a 2way front system + subwoofer. I have an aftermarket headunit (Alpine iDe-178bt , mechless) and use the front rca outputs to rca-1/2 inputs on the jbl dsp.
I connected channel 3 output to the subwoofer amplifier and went ahead for a calibration without connecting anything else (I selected 1 way front output on channels 1-2 just because I had to but no amplifiers nor speakers were connected).
I don't have any other speakers connected to the outputs of the jbl and I went ahead with the microphone calibration with default settings. The only sound I heard was the subwoofer on the last step of measurement (4th). 
After the calibration the volume of the subwoofer is damn low, very very low even on max volume on the headunit. 
What could be the issue ? Bad rca ? Or maby the measurement NEEDS to acquire actual sound from channel 1-2 (in this case, front 1 way) or the setting is ****ed up? 


Sorry for m bad english 
Greetings from Italy


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## Loudy

Turn the gain on the sub way down during calibration and then adjust the sub gain after.


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## Marco9

Loudy said:


> Turn the gain on the sub way down during calibration and then adjust the sub gain after.


thank you , i'll try that tomorrow and i'll let you know !


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## Lanson

Nav360 said:


> So I took your advice, and fed the center channel into the ms8. The back up volume, and blind spot noise only come when you turn on passthrough in the ms8 "secret menu". With pass through on the sounds comes from the front/center. With just Logic 7 in the "ON" position, and Active it comes from the rear speakers, but it's to a point where it's barely audible.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That means the data is out of phase. If you flip the polarity, it may help.


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## Nav360

Polarity on which speaker? 


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## Lanson

Nav360 said:


> Polarity on which speaker?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is only a guess so take it for what it is, but I'm guessing either the data fed by the system is purposely diffuse out of phase, OR the polarity of the center channel itself is out of phase.

But without actually measuring it, I'm only guessing. 

In all the other builds I've done where tones, SYNC, or Bluetooth etc come from the center, I just run all my wires into the MS-8, and the output is as-expected back through the center and/or front depending on what is expected. 

3 Flexes and a Focus with SYNC, my Durango with UConnect, an older Chrysler 300 with whatever came before Uconnect, etc. MS-8's in all of them. In each, the factory beeps and other voice features came through as good as the factory. In some I had to use the sound settings to turn up or down those beeps/tones or the voice, like SYNC voice was way too loud so when "she" talks you just hit the volume button and that adjusts "her" voice only, not the primary volume. 

If something is playing to the rear of the MS-8 when you are in Logic7, it is out of phase information.


----------



## josby

Marco9 said:


> What could be the issue ? Bad rca ? Or maby the measurement NEEDS to acquire actual sound from channel 1-2 (in this case, front 1 way) or the setting is ****ed up?


I think the fact that it FORCES you to tell it what kind of front setup you have means that the software for the auto-tuning is not designed to tune just a subwoofer by itself. If they wrote it to be able to do just a sub, there'd be a way to tell it sub only. So I think unpredictable/bad results should be expected when using it this way.


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## Lanson

Marco9 said:


> Good morning everyone
> Today I turned on my ms-8 after a long period of inactivity.
> I'll use it with a 2way front system + subwoofer. I have an aftermarket headunit (Alpine iDe-178bt , mechless) and use the front rca outputs to rca-1/2 inputs on the jbl dsp.
> I connected channel 3 output to the subwoofer amplifier and went ahead for a calibration without connecting anything else (I selected 1 way front output on channels 1-2 just because I had to but no amplifiers nor speakers were connected).
> I don't have any other speakers connected to the outputs of the jbl and I went ahead with the microphone calibration with default settings. The only sound I heard was the subwoofer on the last step of measurement (4th).
> After the calibration the volume of the subwoofer is damn low, very very low even on max volume on the headunit.
> What could be the issue ? Bad rca ? Or maby the measurement NEEDS to acquire actual sound from channel 1-2 (in this case, front 1 way) or the setting is ****ed up?
> 
> 
> Sorry for m bad english
> Greetings from Italy


You can't do this. It is impossible for the MS-8 to do its routine with the filters it has (which are VERY powerful) if you don't have the speakers outputting what amounts to a full range. It "seeks" a response curve that looks a little like a ski slope, and will automatically adjust the filters to try and get it. 

It can fix issues but it can't fix holes, and it can't fix what it can't hear.


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## FordEscape

Nav360 said:


> So I took your advice, and fed the center channel into the ms8. The back up volume, and blind spot noise only come when you turn on passthrough in the ms8 "secret menu". With pass through on the sounds comes from the front/center. With just Logic 7 in the "ON" position, and Active it comes from the rear speakers, but it's to a point where it's barely audible.





fourthmeal said:


> That means the data is out of phase. If you flip the polarity, it may help.





fourthmeal said:


> This is only a guess so take it for what it is, but I'm guessing either the data fed by the system is purposely diffuse out of phase, OR the polarity of the center channel itself is out of phase.
> 
> But without actually measuring it, I'm only guessing. ....


I had a chance to hear Nav360's setup a few hours ago. Non-instrument testing, MS-8 set for pass-through, with ears close to each speaker indicate IMHO that the Backup/Blind Spot warning tones are on the Front L&R OEM amp/DSP outputs. Those tones are played 'over' the music audio (the music is not muted) and Nav360 has set the available 'warning tones' volume control to maximum (separate from music volume control). As stated, the tones over the music move to the rear with MS-8 L7 active.

I wholly agree with fourthmeal, this 'movement of warning tones to the rear' indicates the warning tones are out of phase so steered to the rear as 'ambient fill' by MS-8 L7.

Unfortunately, since the out-of-phase tones are blended with the front music audio output by the OEM DSP system (I _suspect_ 'injected' _after_ DSP processing to the Front L&R speaker output circuit), I don't think there's much hope of 'phase reversing' those tones relative to the music output (to get warning tones 'in phase' with the front stage music signal so they'll be steered to the front by MS-8). 

In other words, I'm afraid that he's stuck with the tone vs music phase relationship imposed by his OEM DSP and won't be able to reverse the 'tone phase' discretely relative to the 'music phase' so they are 'in phase' and don't get treated as ambient fill and sent to the level attenuated rear output by MS-8. Even reversing input polarity will IMHO leave the warning tones out of phase with the front music (both will be reversed and still out of phase with each other) and therefore sent to the rear by L7.

A decidedly non-MS-8-friendly OEM system 

As a 'test' of this, perhaps calibrate the MS-8 without the rear (e.g. sub, front 2-way and center _only_). See if in that configuration (with no rear ambient speakers) the tones are normal and audible up front with L7 active. Not a desirable long term setup but at least indicate that's the issue. Then you decide what is important for you ..... rear ambient fill setup with L7 and inaudible warning tones *or* 'preserve the tones' and sacrifice rear ambient fill with L7

Thoughts, fourthmeal?


----------



## Lanson

FordEscape said:


> I had a chance to hear Nav360's setup a few hours ago. Non-instrument testing, MS-8 set for pass-through, with ears close to each speaker indicate IMHO that the Backup/Blind Spot warning tones are on the Front L&R OEM amp/DSP outputs. Those tones are played 'over' the music audio (the music is not muted) and Nav360 has set the available 'warning tones' volume control to maximum (separate from music volume control). As stated, the tones over the music move to the rear with MS-8 L7 active.
> 
> I wholly agree with fourthmeal, this 'movement of warning tones to the rear' indicates the warning tones are out of phase so steered to the rear as 'ambient fill' by MS-8 L7.
> 
> Unfortunately, since the out-of-phase tones are blended with the front music audio output by the OEM DSP system (I _suspect_ 'injected' _after_ DSP processing to the Front L&R speaker output circuit), I don't think there's much hope of 'phase reversing' those tones relative to the music output (to get warning tones 'in phase' with the front stage music signal so they'll be steered to the front by MS-8).
> 
> In other words, I'm afraid that he's stuck with the tone vs music phase relationship imposed by his OEM DSP and won't be able to reverse the 'tone phase' discretely relative to the 'music phase' so they are 'in phase' and don't get treated as ambient fill and sent to the level attenuated rear output by MS-8.
> 
> A decidedly non-MS-8-friendly OEM system
> 
> As a 'test' of this, perhaps calibrate the MS-8 without the rear (e.g. sub, front 2-way and center _only_). See if in that configuration (with no rear ambient speakers) the tones are normal and audible up front with L7 active. Not a desirable long term setup but at least indicate that's the issue. Then you decide what is important for you ..... rear ambient fill setup with L7 and inaudible warning tones *or* 'preserve the tones' and sacrifice rear ambient fill with L7
> 
> Thoughts, fourthmeal?



This is excellent, that you were able to meet him and help. My thoughts are, you're likely right. It is very, very weird that the MS-8 picks up and sends the signal backward, due to phase. Before I completely gave up on the MS-8, I think I would wire in a terminal block for quick disconnection and re-connection, and try a few things. I'd first try several polarity tests. For instance, I'd made very sure that all speakers are in the right polarity, because just for instance, what if the left front is correct but right front is incorrect? Since the LF and RF play these tones, the inputs could be tricking the MS-8 (phase relationship again.) Its just a thought. I'd like to disconnect and reconnect various wires and note the results of each test, to see what is happening here. 

IF it turns out from the tests that the DSP is really pushing that out of phase, then turning Logic7 off and listening again would likely result in that sound being pushed front and rear equally. If so, we'd have to decide if Logic7 off sounds good (like a normal processor). If so, then I'd go that way. In the Focus I mentioned earlier, I ran it in Logic7 OFF mode all the time, because it sounded better. Much better!


A few hours ago, Nav360 PM'd me about crossover points. I don't know what became of that, but I think many of the crossover points were off, based on the PM. Example, the rear speakers were crossed over equal to the front. That's a no-no, because the rear speakers are out of phase and will destructively interfere with the front. Per Andy W., he suggests setting the rears at least at 100hz. I suggested the same or higher. Another example, he was speaking of crossing over the mids at 65hz. This is not even what I run my big, mean Image Dynamics 6x9's on. They are 75hz instead. Unless those mids are VERY strong, I would go 80hz or up. Final example, tweeter setting is 1000hz. This is dangerously low for most tweeters. 3k might be a better fit.

I don't know if any of those adjustments will help the phase issue, but I think we should at least get some nice standard crossover points set up before taking this further. Also, I would make sure in the speaker output test that all speakers are playing their expected position. I had a build once where I swapped front and rear outputs by accident, and man it made for a really weird sound. I didn't pay attention during calibration and the noise test for each speaker, but began playing music and wondering why my stage was so f'd up.


----------



## FordEscape

Yeah, Nav360 and I together looked at his speaker response specs and I suggested XO's well in the comfort range of his various drivers. He's got decent overlap on the 'stated' frequency response for each driver so I suggested he go for the middle of that overlap - IMHO MS-8 should then handle that OK and when he gets other things closer to 'good' he can go back and play with small adjustments to that along with EQ to help the tonality from each driver if needed. I too suggested getting that better before proceeding.

His basic outputs are correctly located and he's working to get the levels reasonably matched by ear (he's now added another 4 ch amp so he can tweak gains for level matching at all 'corners' 

9V battery pop test indicates all polarities are good at the point of beginning.

As far as the tones thing, I suggested he go ahead and at least try reversing the front input polarities to the MS-8 .... I could be wrong and there's nothing to lose for the effort. If it helps the situation I'll be more than glad to eat crow  I'm waiting to hear back from him on that test.

IMHO it's really unfortunate that his OEM system originally had 3 DSP environment settings, which might have been useful to adjust for this phase problem, but those were deleted from the HU menu due to a firmware update - so now he has NO options for DSP settings/defeat. Seems that firmware update was done to eliminate those options because there were problems with the Bluetooth phone on certain settings (lol - shades of the rarely needed MS-8 'phone patch'). BTW, his phone works great with the MS-8 installed, no problems there.


----------



## FordEscape

OK, Nav360 back in Houston, me near Austin, but here's the latest test results he shared by phone ....

1. Reversing polarity of front inputs to the MS-8 did not change the tone 'location' from rear to front and did not help the tone volume problem (gets lost in the music).

2. Calibrating with no side/rear did move the warning tones to the front but still at very low volume relative to the music (gets lost in the music).

Now the really baffling part to me .... those results are the _same_ with L7 on and with L7 off.

The only thing that 'cures' the warning tone situation is 'hidden menu pass-through'.

So, it seems that whatever is juking with the warning tones is happening in the basic MS-8 processing, not just in "L7 on" mode.

So That suggests that the 'phase cued' steering of signals to the rear speakers occurs in basic processing, not in L7 ... is that correct (I _should_ know that from 'MS-8 101' but I'm hesitating about my knowledge at the moment :blush: )?

And, the various tests suggest that the warning tones are inextricably 'fixed' by his OEM DSP out-of-phase relative to his front music, would you agree?

This is very frustrating. 

I'm 'out' 'till the end of game 7 ....


----------



## Lanson

FordEscape said:


> OK, Nav360 back in Houston, me near Austin, but here's the latest test results he shared by phone ....
> 
> 1. Reversing polarity of front inputs to the MS-8 did not change the tone 'location' from rear to front and did not help the tone volume problem (gets lost in the music).
> 
> 2. Calibrating with no side/rear did move the warning tones to the front but still at very low volume relative to the music (gets lost in the music).
> 
> Now the really baffling part to me .... those results are the _same_ with L7 on and with L7 off.
> 
> The only thing that 'cures' the warning tone situation is 'hidden menu pass-through'.
> 
> So, it seems that whatever is juking with the warning tones is happening in the basic MS-8 processing, not just in "L7 on" mode.
> 
> So That suggests that the 'phase cued' steering of signals to the rear speakers occurs in basic processing, not in L7 ... is that correct (I _should_ know that from 'MS-8 101' but I'm hesitating about my knowledge at the moment :blush: )?
> 
> And, the various tests suggest that the warning tones are inextricably 'fixed' by his OEM DSP out-of-phase relative to his front music, would you agree?
> 
> This is very frustrating.
> 
> I'm 'out' 'till the end of game 7 ....



Wait a sec, the tones stay in the rear with L7 OFF? How is that even possible? What I'm very worried about is the effect of ANY other processor, then. Because with L7 off, the MS-8 is about like any other processor. Sure autotune and all that, but with L7 off the magic staging effect is gone, only T/A and EQ remain if I remember right. 

Unless I'm mis-reading what is happening with the inputs and outputs (and I might, because it defies logic that I know of right now), with the system calibrated only to the front, that should be like any other 2 channel to 6/8 channel processor.

So it makes me wonder what would happen if just an output of the factory speakers met an input of a straight amp channel, bypassing a DSP. Logic says it will just be louder. That's what the MS-8 should be doing.

Dumb thought but if you turn L7 off AND Processing off, do you get the same result as before?


----------



## Lanson

FordEscape said:


> Yeah, Nav360 and I together looked at his speaker response specs and I suggested XO's well in the comfort range of his various drivers. He's got decent overlap on the 'stated' frequency response for each driver so I suggested he go for the middle of that overlap - IMHO MS-8 should then handle that OK and when he gets other things closer to 'good' he can go back and play with small adjustments to that along with EQ to help the tonality from each driver if needed. I too suggested getting that better before proceeding.
> 
> His basic outputs are correctly located and he's working to get the levels reasonably matched by ear (he's now added another 4 ch amp so he can tweak gains for level matching at all 'corners'
> 
> 9V battery pop test indicates all polarities are good at the point of beginning.
> 
> As far as the tones thing, I suggested he go ahead and at least try reversing the front input polarities to the MS-8 .... I could be wrong and there's nothing to lose for the effort. If it helps the situation I'll be more than glad to eat crow  I'm waiting to hear back from him on that test.
> 
> IMHO it's really unfortunate that his OEM system originally had 3 DSP environment settings, which might have been useful to adjust for this phase problem, but those were deleted from the HU menu due to a firmware update - so now he has NO options for DSP settings/defeat. Seems that firmware update was done to eliminate those options because there were problems with the Bluetooth phone on certain settings (lol - shades of the rarely needed MS-8 'phone patch'). BTW, his phone works great with the MS-8 installed, no problems there.


What crossover points did you guys end up with?


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## Nav360

Same result with both off, and crossover points are a mix of what you recommended, everything in a comfortable range for the speakers. I'm also going to try swapping out my RCA cables, I rewired the whole system yesterday to double check on any wiring issues, but also ended up losing audio to front doors, and center. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## USS Enterprise

Quick ms8 q...if I am NOT using the internal amp, are smaller power/ground ok?

Say 12g


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## Lanson

USS Enterprise said:


> Quick ms8 q...if I am NOT using the internal amp, are smaller power/ground ok?
> 
> Say 12g


I think I went with a short 10g power and ground with my setup. No problems thus far. 12g might be pushing it, not sure. Like all things with wire, it depends on the length.


----------



## FordEscape

fourthmeal said:


> What crossover points did you guys end up with?


Speaker published specs...
Sub Kicker 12" L7: 20-100Hz
Fr Door woofer Alpine SPR60C: 65Hz - ?
Fr tweeter Alpine SPR60c (SPR 10TW): 1kHz-29kHz
Rear door Alpine SPR60 2-way coax: 65Hz-29kHz
Center Alpine SPS410 2-way coax: 97Hz-22kHz

My suggested XO @slope starting points.....
[20Hz @12] SUB [90Hz @24] FR LO [3kHz @24] FR HI
[160Hz @24] SIDE(rear)
[100-150Hz @24] CENTER

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Nav360 has made lots of changes in a very short time, trying to learn a lot about his system and warning tones in the process. I'm not sure that everything has been kept 'straight' and well-documented through this process. If it were me I'd re-group and do some more 'ordered and documented' trials. Since using terminal strips this shouldn't be too hard. I'd:

1. Reconnect the speakers to the OEM amp outputs as original WITHOUT the MS-8 in the loop at all. Then, with HU set to 'null' on fade, balance and tone controls, by getting my ear very close to each speaker (and covering other speakers if needed to eliminate any confusion) ... create each of the various system warning tones and document exactly which speaker(s) emit that tone and at what 'level' (e.g. hi level or low level if it differs between the speakers). I suggest this because I'm not confident we really know where the OEM DSP is sending each warning tone, and may be getting incorrect impressions about any 're-direct' imposed by MS-8.

2. Reconnect the MS-8, amps & speakers and (re)run the following configurations (with MS-8 reset and re-calibration between each, confirming acoustic levels and locations are good), documenting HU volume required to get "OK" (i.e. HU volume "calibration level"):

2A. INPUTS - FR tweeter Ch 1&2; FR woofers Ch 3&4; Sub Ch8
OUTPUTS - Sub, 2-way front, 1-way Center, 1-way Side

2B. INPUTS - FR tweeter Ch 1&2; FR woofers Ch 3&4; *add* Rear Ch 5&6; Sub Ch8
OUTPUTS - Sub, 2-way front, 1-way Center, 1-way Side (no change)

2C. INPUTS - FR tweeter Ch 1&2; FR woofers Ch 3&4; Rear Ch 5&6; *add* center Ch7; Sub Ch8
OUTPUTS - Sub, 2-way front, 1-way Center, 1-way Side (no change)

3. With each of the above configurations, after completing calibration, I'd do the following 'listening tests', again moving my ear close to each speaker to determine exact info, document the location and level of each warning tone:

3A. MS-8 vol @ -10+/- dB; HU vol @ listening level; L7 ON

3B. MS-8 vol @ -10+/- dB; HU vol @ listening level; L7 OFF

3C. MS-8 vol @ -10+/- dB; HU vol @ listening level; Processing OFF

3D. HU vol @ calibration level; MS-8 vol @ listening level; L7 ON

3E. HU vol @ calibration level; MS-8 vol @ listening level; L7 OFF

3F. HU vol @ calibration level; MS-8 vol @ listening level; Processing OFF

(Tests 3D - 3F because I'm not convinced that the HU volume change alters only dB/EQ ... I wonder if the HU volume change may alter other warning tone characteristics (steering or phase??) in the OEM DSP)

Yes, that will yield a LARGE table/matrix of info, but IMHO that'd be the best way to get a comprehensive 'picture' of what's going on to review and then analyze for 'least compromised' configurations or possible other configurations to test (e.g. polarity swapping of MS-8 inputs).

Recalling some _*my learned*_ 'rules of thumb' for an MS-8 setup:
4A. Use the fewest INPUTS that will yield full-spectrum audio and HU calibration level OK at somewhat less than 10/10 HU volume (to minimize MS-8 input processing overhead and keep the HU volume in a 'comfortable' range)

4B. Having accomplished 4A, add inputs ONLY as needed to get owner required vehicle warning tones.

IMHO the test configurations above, properly documented, will yield data that can then be evaluated to hopefully ID the least compromised setup for this Sonata Infinity/Harmon situation. 

Sorry for the long post .... this retired engineer is craving a more systematic documented approach to help evaluate this challenge.....not willing to 'give up' on the MS-8 in this application quite yet.


----------



## Lanson

Nav360 said:


> Same result with both off, and crossover points are a mix of what you recommended, everything in a comfortable range for the speakers. I'm also going to try swapping out my RCA cables, I rewired the whole system yesterday to double check on any wiring issues, but also ended up losing audio to front doors, and center.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Its a wild problem, friend. It will probably end up being a wild solution! Or an embarrassingly simple solution, but hopefully one way or another the riddle is solved. It definitely is NOT operating like I've ever heard an MS-8 operate. Usually its just plug-and-play and tune to taste.


----------



## Lanson

I like the way you think, man. That's probably perfect. 

Maybe we can ping Andy and see if he has any suggestions or feedback, since he knows the MS-8 better than any of us, AND he knows a lot about the OEM market (or pretty much all of Harman's market in it, at least.)




FordEscape said:


> Speaker published specs...
> Sub Kicker 12" L7: 20-100Hz
> Fr Door woofer Alpine SPR60C: 65Hz - ?
> Fr tweeter Alpine SPR60c (SPR 10TW): 1kHz-29kHz
> Rear door Alpine SPR60 2-way coax: 65Hz-29kHz
> Center Alpine SPS410 2-way coax: 97Hz-22kHz
> 
> My suggested XO @slope starting points.....
> [20Hz @12] SUB [90Hz @24] FR LO [3kHz @24] FR HI
> [160Hz @24] SIDE(rear)
> [100-150Hz @24] CENTER
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> Nav360 has made lots of changes in a very short time, trying to learn a lot about his system and warning tones in the process. I'm not sure that everything has been kept 'straight' and well-documented through this process. If it were me I'd re-group and do some more 'ordered and documented' trials. Since using terminal strips this shouldn't be too hard. I'd:
> 
> 1. Reconnect the speakers to the OEM amp outputs as original WITHOUT the MS-8 in the loop at all. Then, with HU set to 'null' on fade, balance and tone controls, by getting my ear very close to each speaker (and covering other speakers if needed to eliminate any confusion) ... create each of the various system warning tones and document exactly which speaker(s) emit that tone and at what 'level' (e.g. hi level or low level if it differs between the speakers). I suggest this because I'm not confident we really know where the OEM DSP is sending each warning tone, and may be getting incorrect impressions about any 're-direct' imposed by MS-8.
> 
> 2. Reconnect the MS-8, amps & speakers and (re)run the following configurations (with MS-8 reset and re-calibration between each, confirming acoustic levels and locations are good), documenting HU volume required to get "OK" (i.e. HU volume "calibration level"):
> 
> 2A. INPUTS - FR tweeter Ch 1&2; FR woofers Ch 3&4; Sub Ch8
> OUTPUTS - Sub, 2-way front, 1-way Center, 1-way Side
> 
> 2B. INPUTS - FR tweeter Ch 1&2; FR woofers Ch 3&4; *add* Rear Ch 5&6; Sub Ch8
> OUTPUTS - Sub, 2-way front, 1-way Center, 1-way Side (no change)
> 
> 2C. INPUTS - FR tweeter Ch 1&2; FR woofers Ch 3&4; Rear Ch 5&6; *add* center Ch7; Sub Ch8
> OUTPUTS - Sub, 2-way front, 1-way Center, 1-way Side (no change)
> 
> 3. With each of the above configurations, after completing calibration, I'd do the following 'listening tests', again moving my ear close to each speaker to determine exact info, document the location and level of each warning tone:
> 
> 3A. MS-8 vol @ -10+/- dB; HU vol @ listening level; L7 ON
> 
> 3B. MS-8 vol @ -10+/- dB; HU vol @ listening level; L7 OFF
> 
> 3C. MS-8 vol @ -10+/- dB; HU vol @ listening level; Processing OFF
> 
> 3D. HU vol @ calibration level; MS-8 vol @ listening level; L7 ON
> 
> 3B. HU vol @ calibration level; MS-8 vol @ listening level; L7 OFF
> 
> 3C. HU vol @ calibration level; MS-8 vol @ listening level; Processing OFF
> 
> Yes, that will yield a LARGE table/matrix of info, but IMHO that'd be the best way to get a comprehensive 'picture' of what's going on to review and then analyze for 'least compromised' configurations or possible other configurations to test (e.g. polarity swapping of MS-8 inputs).
> 
> Recalling some _*my learned*_ 'rules of thumb' for an MS-8 setup:
> 4A. Use the fewest INPUTS that will yield full-spectrum audio and HU calibration level OK at somewhat less than 10/10 HU volume (to minimize MS-8 input processing overhead and keep the HU volume in a 'comfortable' range)
> 
> 4B. Having accomplished 4A, add inputs ONLY as needed to get owner required vehicle warning tones.
> 
> IMHO the test configurations above, properly documented, will yield data that can then be evaluated to hopefully ID the least compromised setup for this Sonata Infinity/Harmon situation.
> 
> Sorry for the long post .... this retired engineer is craving a more systematic documented approach to help evaluate this challenge.....not willing to 'give up' on the MS-8 in this application quite yet.


----------



## FordEscape

^^^^ please note I fixed some typos and added clarification after you clipped the quote.

Would love to hear from Andy on this of course!


----------



## Lanson

I decided to look and see if I could find any wiring diagram data. I was able to find 2014's JBL setup:

DRIVER DOOR SPEAKER FL - BLUE / FL + ORANGE
PASSENGER DOOR SPEAKER FR - GREEN/BLACK (note, this speaker changes wire color (Yellow/Orange) at the actual speaker, but these colors are at the JBL Amp itself.) AND / FR + BLUE/ORANGE

MIDRANGE SPEAKER LH TW FL - ORANGE/BLACK TW FL + GRAY/BLACK (very confusing because there is a color change in the wiring, they FLIP colors! Closer to the tweeter and at the tweeter itself, I'm reading they flip completely that's GRAY/BLACK - AND ORANGE/BLACK +.

The REAR speakers do this as well, they FLIP wiring! 
RL - P AND RL + G. RR - BROWN RR + WHITE
and when they get to the speakers, its backward for both. Completely insane.


----------



## FordEscape

fourthmeal said:


> I decided to look and see if I could find any wiring diagram data. I was able to find 2014's JBL setup:.....and when they get to the speakers, its backward for both. Completely insane.


Yeah, we pulled the complete '15 Sonata Infinity schematics from Hyundai via Nav360's service website login, used that to review the system interconnects (that's what showed the HU>Amp/DSP SPDIF), etc. He's done all his 'insert' for the MS-8 at the 2 amp/DSP output connectors.

Several 'wire color shifts' between the amp and the speakers as you mention, also lots of same-color wires used for multiple different purposes. Sure makes me appreciate the consistency and color-coding of the late model Fords.


----------



## Lanson

FordEscape said:


> Yeah, we pulled the complete '15 Sonata Infinity schematics from Hyundai via Nav360's service website login, used that to review the system interconnects (that's what showed the HU>Amp/DSP SPDIF), etc. He's done all his 'insert' for the MS-8 at the 2 amp/DSP output connectors.
> 
> Several 'wire color shifts' between the amp and the speakers as you mention, also lots of same-color wires used for multiple different purposes. Sure makes me appreciate the consistency and color-coding of the late model Fords.



Those "swaps" lead me to wonder if there is a purposeful phase change planned in the design here. There's really no good reason why a manufacturer would swap one for the other at a connector, unless they did testing and found it was better in some way. Example, we know that when we have a 2nd order crossover on the woofer and tweeter, we need to adjust for the crossover's phase distortion of 180 degrees so we usually flip the tweeter's polarity. Maybe JBL/Harman has engineered a phase swap into the rear speakers, and one of the tweeters.

Also did 2015 add the center channel? Because the 2014 ignored it. And Navish, did your diagram colors otherwise match what I stated in the last post or did 2015 change things?


----------



## Nav360

I have the diagram for my car amp, if you wanna take a look at it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FordEscape

fourthmeal said:


> ....Also did 2015 add the center channel? Because the 2014 ignored it. And Navish, did your diagram colors otherwise match what I stated in the last post or did 2015 change things?


You have email.



Nav360 said:


> I have the diagram for my car amp, if you wanna take a look at it.


Just forwarded that to him


----------



## Nav360

Thanks 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## USS Enterprise

Well, as odd as it sounds, and despite what the manual says, the rca throughout on my 2.100 are indeed affected by gain.
Turn gain up, sub turns up. Not supposed to work that way, but there it is. So I guess I'll run sub from ms8 until I find another solution.
And it'll leave me with no rears. Ah well.


----------



## USS Enterprise

Any other ways you guys can think of to get more than 8 channels out of an ms-8?

The aforementioned trick, sending 20-250 to MB amp and using MB amp output to feed sub amp, and using amp internal xo's will not work for me. For some reason my MB amp outputs are affected by the amp's gain control. odd.

I was thinking of doing the opposite, sending 20-250 to my sub amp, and using the sub amp's rca outputs to feed the MB amp, but am wondering if that might lead to t/a issues, or not optimal setup. The sub amp is an old rf 250.1 chrome


----------



## Lanson

USS Enterprise said:


> Any other ways you guys can think of to get more than 8 channels out of an ms-8?
> 
> The aforementioned trick, sending 20-250 to MB amp and using MB amp output to feed sub amp, and using amp internal xo's will not work for me. For some reason my MB amp outputs are affected by the amp's gain control. odd.
> 
> I was thinking of doing the opposite, sending 20-250 to my sub amp, and using the sub amp's rca outputs to feed the MB amp, but am wondering if that might lead to t/a issues, or not optimal setup. The sub amp is an old rf 250.1 chrome



Think of the 8 channels as a potential maximum number of channels that can be explicitly timed and crossed over and DSP'd, but you can definitely have more than one speaker outputting on a single channel. Examples:

In my 2013 Flex build, I made 3 passive crossovers. They were two-way units, made out of about $30 worth of Parts Express components + $30 worth of project boxes with prototype boards. Those 3 ran my left front and right front pillars, and center midrange/tweeter sets, and I had 2 more channels for my midbass in the doors, plus the rears, plus the subs. So with those, I had an MS-8 running 10 speakers + 2 subs. The MS-8 had zero issue calibrating this, and my passive crossovers could be extremely simple 4 component (2 inductors, 2 capacitors) units while all the frequency response adjustments like tweaking the output of the tweeters down a notch was easily within the ability of the auto-calibration on the MS-8. My so-so crossovers sounded great because it could compensate perfectly.

In my latest 2015 Durango build, I didn't need a 3-way front like the Flex, but I wanted my rear door speakers and D-pillar speakers to play surround together. So to get that, I ran a 4 channel amp and took two channels out of the MS-8 and ran 4 speakers from that. This was considerably more simple than the Flex setup, but it serves a different purpose. I just used the crossovers built-in to the amp and limited the frequency range of the smaller d-pillar speakers, and when the MS-8 calibrated it just treated the LR door and LR d-pillar (and the other side the same) as one single speaker, and it calibrated perfectly. Rear passengers are happy, it sounds good, no issues.


TLR if you have a bunch of speakers, you can use a few things outside the MS-8 to keep them working together. But the MS-8 needs to have ALL initial output control, else you're going to have a bad time with delays in processing and weird phasing issues.


----------



## USS Enterprise

fourthmeal said:


> Think of the 8 channels as a potential maximum number of channels that can be explicitly timed and crossed over and DSP'd, but you can definitely have more than one speaker outputting on a single channel. Examples:
> 
> In my 2013 Flex build, I made 3 passive crossovers. They were two-way units, made out of about $30 worth of Parts Express components + $30 worth of project boxes with prototype boards. Those 3 ran my left front and right front pillars, and center midrange/tweeter sets, and I had 2 more channels for my midbass in the doors, plus the rears, plus the subs. So with those, I had an MS-8 running 10 speakers + 2 subs. The MS-8 had zero issue calibrating this, and my passive crossovers could be extremely simple 4 component (2 inductors, 2 capacitors) units while all the frequency response adjustments like tweaking the output of the tweeters down a notch was easily within the ability of the auto-calibration on the MS-8. My so-so crossovers sounded great because it could compensate perfectly.
> 
> In my latest 2015 Durango build, I didn't need a 3-way front like the Flex, but I wanted my rear door speakers and D-pillar speakers to play surround together. So to get that, I ran a 4 channel amp and took two channels out of the MS-8 and ran 4 speakers from that. This was considerably more simple than the Flex setup, but it serves a different purpose. I just used the crossovers built-in to the amp and limited the frequency range of the smaller d-pillar speakers, and when the MS-8 calibrated it just treated the LR door and LR d-pillar (and the other side the same) as one single speaker, and it calibrated perfectly. Rear passengers are happy, it sounds good, no issues.
> 
> 
> TLR if you have a bunch of speakers, you can use a few things outside the MS-8 to keep them working together. But the MS-8 needs to have ALL initial output control, else you're going to have a bad time with delays in processing and weird phasing issues.


Yeah, that was the idea I was goign with originally. I fed my tru t2.100 20-250 from the ms8, and ran the RCA outputs from the tru to the RF sub amp.
Used the tru internal xo to hp at 80, and the rf's xo set to 80 lp.
Unfortunately, the tru gain control ALSO controls the rca outputs, and with the gains at minimum (which still outputs plenty of midbass), the sub in nonexistent.
Turn it up, and it's fine, but then the midbass is overbearing. I can't win.

The manual says rca outs NOT affected by gain or xo settings, however testing showed BOTH to actually be the case. Making the rca outs useless.

That said, I suppose I could go the passive route, or even y cables. I'm sure there's other solutions. I'll just have to think outside the box.

BTW - for the time being I did in fact run ch 7 from the ms8 to the sub amp, and it operates good. However volume is VERY low.
If I turn the sub up under system levels, it's better. But i've used this amp in more than one install and it slammed. Right now, it's very weak.

Being that I've read in multiple cases of the ms-8 having weak output, is the ms-8 at fault here? Trying the keep the bass low to hit that target curve?

I haven't even ran the auto cal yet. Thought I'd get to it today, but got sidetracked.


----------



## mitchyz250f

What is the 'secret menu' you guys are talking about? Is it on the MS8 or the OEM HU?


----------



## litrekid

Question for you fourthmeal. Since your Durango and my challenger have somewhat similar wiring and stock systems I'm Wondering if I should cut the factory wiring to run to the ms8 or can I just tap into the wires I need to run the ms8 and disconnect at the speakers. Wondering how you did yours. Really hate to cut but I will if needed. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## Lanson

litrekid said:


> Question for you fourthmeal. Since your Durango and my challenger have somewhat similar wiring and stock systems I'm Wondering if I should cut the factory wiring to run to the ms8 or can I just tap into the wires I need to run the ms8 and disconnect at the speakers. Wondering how you did yours. Really hate to cut but I will if needed.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


I cut them.

I recommend using barrier strips / terminal blocks to ease the process. I didn't use them in my case because I had a space issue, but most times there's room for one. 

I tend to stagger my cuts so if/when I need to return it back to stock, I don't end up with a massive bulb worth of soldered points in the harness.


----------



## litrekid

fourthmeal said:


> I cut them.
> 
> I recommend using barrier strips / terminal blocks to ease the process. I didn't use them in my case because I had a space issue, but most times there's room for one.
> 
> I tend to stagger my cuts so if/when I need to return it back to stock, I don't end up with a massive bulb worth of soldered points in the harness.


So a terminal block next to the amp so if I ever pull the system out I can just reattach the factory wiring to the block? Hopefully I have enough room to do that under the dash. Thanks for the input. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## Lanson

Yeah those small barrier strips work great, the ones where they are insulated, and you install bare wire with a set screw holding it on both sides. They are usually white plastic.


----------



## USS Enterprise

OK guys.

Trying to get my bass dialed in.

I tried another amp, and had the same issue. This one I KNOW has no issues with power.
It's a zapco ref 750 a friend got through here, borrowed it back to test.

175 x 2 @4 350 X2 @ 2

I had the same extremely low bass issue. And just like the RF amp (500+ @ 2 ohm) I had to jack the gain all they way up just to get any bass whatsoever.

So I had an idea. I bypassed the ms-8 and ran directly into the zapco.

By the way, the zap is NOT bridged. Only using ONE channel so 175 @ 4

Instantly, with the gain all the way DOWN the bass hits. Nicely. Turn the gain up maybe a quarter of the way, and the sub is JUMPING!

MUCH harder than when on the rf with over twice the power.

So....I figured I'd try and test the RF the same way. Wouldn't you know, the sub SLAMS.

Back to the ms-8, nothing. The sub won't even move with gains maxed out.

Anything less than maxed, the bass is nonexistent.

So, this leads me to conclude that the ms-8 is MASSIVELY attenuating the sub. I checked the audio controls, and sub is set right to the middle, just like everything else. Under tone, everything is in the middle.

Does the ms-8 seriously attenuate that much?

If so, I can see why it's recommended everywhere to run the sub off of another amp in the system, and NOT the ms-8.
Being as I can not currently use that trick, until I work another solution into the mix, is there any drawback to turning up the sub volume under system levels?

I do not have another midbass amp to use that doesn't have the drawback the tru does (gain/xo settings affecting RCA throughput) so for now i'm stuck using the ms-8.

Thanks


----------



## Golfntob

Try running the sweeps again and set your gains way down on the sub amp. If you can feel the sub on the sweep it is too loud and it will attenuate the output. For mine I set the gain so that I can barely hear the sub at the very end of the sweep. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Lanson

litrekid said:


> So a terminal block next to the amp so if I ever pull the system out I can just reattach the factory wiring to the block? Hopefully I have enough room to do that under the dash. Thanks for the input.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P



Incidentally, RadioShack has a nice barrier strip for under $5. It is a 12-terminal, bare-wire type which is ideal for keeping your cut wires short (no need to add fork terminals) and making the job simple. 

https://www.radioshack.com/products...style-mini-terminal-strip?variant=20332136901


















I bought two today just for spares.


----------



## litrekid

That's perfect. I'll have to see what I can find locally. All our RS closed. Thanks for the suggestion. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## banshee28

Quick question.... I did not see it posted before but wanted to know how long this unit will hold its memory/settings once uninstalled from the car. I am asking since I bought a used one already tuned to my car but have not installed it yet. I should have it installed within a week or so but not sure if the memory will still keep everything?

Thanks


----------



## t3sn4f2

banshee28 said:


> Quick question.... I did not see it posted before but wanted to know how long this unit will hold its memory/settings once uninstalled from the car. I am asking since I bought a used one already tuned to my car but have not installed it yet. I should have it installed within a week or so but not sure if the memory will still keep everything?
> 
> Thanks


Indefinitely, just like a thumb drive.


----------



## banshee28

t3sn4f2 said:


> Indefinitely, just like a thumb drive.


Excellent, thanks!


----------



## 1lowlife

In the 2 years I've been running my MS-8, I've never been really happy with it.
I've never got the majestic sound some of you seem to have gotten in my non-JBL 2014 Tundra.

Running the MS-8 with a the stock HU.
2 Alpine amps 5 channel PDX V9 and 4 channel MRV-F300.
Front components separately off the PDX and a JL Audio 2 10" Stealthbox
Rear doors running off the MRV on 2 channels and the center bridged off the other 2.
I'm running Focal speakers in the 4 door and center dash.
Side dash speakers are disconnected.

So I tried to re-calibrate it to today using variable input volume settings.
Redid it about 10 times.
It still sounds like ****.
Now the bass I had is gone.
But the biggest issue I'm now having.
In Logic 7 the front door low have the surround effect and the back door sound normal.
It was the other way around.

I may have to look into a different DSP, but I don't have a laptop to program it.
My system sounded better with the LC7i I had before the MS-8.
Hell my system sounded better stock, it just wasn't loud enough and needed bass.

If there is anyone in the DFW Texas area that I can meet that could help me set this up, I would gladly pay you for your time.
Not one shop in Dallas had an installer that knows anything about the MS-8.


----------



## Lanson

Remember after calibration, definitely DO grab a calibrated mic and software (REW is what I use right now), and tune that sucker in. The MS-8 could do a better job of this part, I've learned. It gets you in the door but you have to EQ and gain-tweak your way to happiness. 

Before you calibrated, did you verify average SPL is the same per speaker (you can use crude tools for this, like an SPL meter on your phone) ? I've NEVER been short of bass on an MS-8 setup. Usually I have to tone it way down. Check each speaker and make sure phase is good, something the MS-8 can't do. Check to make sure the response you're hoping for in the mids for instance, that they can actually do that. Example, setting a 6.5" basic component set to cross at 60hz is asking more than it can probably do. Stay conservative in these settings. Another example, if the subwoofer sweeps and loses output at 70hz but you cross at 80hz, then you're going to have a hole it has to boost. Sweep each speaker (raw, no calibration) if you're at all concerned of a speaker's ability to play the range you hope, in the cabin. This definitely goes for the center channel too. Finally, make sure the rear speakers are crossed very high, like 110hz or higher, because their out of phase response can kill midbass up front and make it sound ultra-thin.


----------



## 1lowlife

fourthmeal said:


> Remember after calibration, definitely DO grab a calibrated mic and software (REW is what I use right now), and tune that sucker in. The MS-8 could do a better job of this part, I've learned. It gets you in the door but you have to EQ and gain-tweak your way to happiness.
> 
> Before you calibrated, did you verify average SPL is the same per speaker (you can use crude tools for this, like an SPL meter on your phone) ? I've NEVER been short of bass on an MS-8 setup. Usually I have to tone it way down. Check each speaker and make sure phase is good, something the MS-8 can't do. Check to make sure the response you're hoping for in the mids for instance, that they can actually do that. Example, setting a 6.5" basic component set to cross at 60hz is asking more than it can probably do. Stay conservative in these settings. Another example, if the subwoofer sweeps and loses output at 70hz but you cross at 80hz, then you're going to have a hole it has to boost. Sweep each speaker (raw, no calibration) if you're at all concerned of a speaker's ability to play the range you hope, in the cabin. This definitely goes for the center channel too. Finally, make sure the rear speakers are crossed very high, like 110hz or higher, because their out of phase response can kill midbass up front and make it sound ultra-thin.


Thank you.
I'll work on it this weekend.

The Logic 7 surround coming out of the front speakers is really got me confused.


----------



## Lanson

1lowlife said:


> Thank you.
> I'll work on it this weekend.
> 
> The Logic 7 surround coming out of the front speakers is really got me confused.


Of course confirm that your outputs match what you expect. During the system noise test, you'll want to confirm each speaker is set to the right channel. And this is the same test you'll be using to confirm SPL average volume. Remember also, calibration needs to be done in a very quiet place with minimal ambient noise, and at speaking volume. The sub needs to match this SPL on your meter as well, and it definitely won't sound loud at all.

I've always had a habit of sitting, leaning just about 2-3" toward center when I do the calibrations, and I tend to turn my head very wide on the side measurements, by looking at the very tip of the mirror. I'm not sure if this is ideal but IMO I'm happy when I do it that way. Also make sure the left and right side of the mic set are going the right direction.


----------



## 1lowlife

fourthmeal said:


> Of course confirm that your outputs match what you expect..


That is the odd part about the Logic 7. 
Although I have not calibrated the system in over a year, it was the rear speakers that had the surround effect.
Now it is the front using the same setup as before.

Channel 1 - front right hi
Channel 2 - front left hi
Channel 3 - front right lo
Channel 4 - front left lo
Channel 5 - side right
Channel 6 - side left
Channel 7 - center
Channel 8 - sub

But now channels 3 and 4 give me surround sound in Logic 7.

I had sub bass before, but this time I unplugged my Alpine RUX sub knob to calibrate.
I guess I need that plugged in and turned all the way down like I did the calibrations a year ago.

I'm going to try a reset with the push button on the unit when I have time to mess with it.
But I'm pretty sure I read that it is the same thing as doing a reset with the display unit.

My first MS-8 I bought from Sonic only had sound coming out of 4 channels.
The unit I have now was the second one they sent me.
Both were packaged as brand new units.

But I've never got anything near spectacular out of it.
I'd really like to find someone locally that knows the ins and outs of the MS-8.

I'm using the Focal passive crossover for the front, but it has separate inputs for hi and lo.

Focal Performance PS 165FX Expert Series 6-3/4" component speaker system at Crutchfield.com

I bought these speakers because they sounded SO awesome at the store.
But I've never gotten anywhere near how good they sounded there with the MS-8.
I first tried them without the crossover (running them on separate channels) and they sounded like crap straight out the MS-8 to the amp.


----------



## Lanson

1lowlife said:


> That is the odd part about the Logic 7.
> Although I have not calibrated the system in over a year, it was the rear speakers that had the surround effect.
> Now it is the front using the same setup as before.
> 
> Channel 1 - front right hi
> Channel 2 - front left hi
> Channel 3 - front right lo
> Channel 4 - front left lo
> Channel 5 - side right
> Channel 6 - side left
> Channel 7 - center
> Channel 8 - sub
> 
> But now channels 3 and 4 give me surround sound in Logic 7.
> 
> I had sub bass before, but this time I unplugged my Alpine RUX sub knob to calibrate.
> I guess I need that plugged in and turned all the way down like I did the calibrations a year ago.
> 
> I'm going to try a reset with the push button on the unit when I have time to mess with it.
> But I'm pretty sure I read that it is the same thing as doing a reset with the display unit.
> 
> My first MS-8 I bought from Sonic only had sound coming out of 4 channels.
> The unit I have now was the second one they sent me.
> Both were packaged as brand new units.
> 
> But I've never got anything near spectacular out of it.
> I'd really like to find someone locally that knows the ins and outs of the MS-8.
> 
> I'm using the Focal passive crossover for the front, but it has separate inputs for hi and lo.
> 
> Focal Performance PS 165FX Expert Series 6-3/4" component speaker system at Crutchfield.com
> 
> I bought these speakers because they sounded SO awesome at the store.
> But I've never gotten anywhere near how good they sounded there with the MS-8.
> I first tried them without the crossover (running them on separate channels) and they sounded like crap straight out the MS-8 to the amp.



I think it may be time to invest in some equipment to measure everything. Do you have a calibrated mic and something like R.E.W. to run some measurements? I use the Umik but there's plenty of other good mics under $100. We need to see how the system is measuring speaker by speaker, and combined.

So I'm going to describe how I think your system should be wired, let me know if I'm missing anything or if you've changed anything.

---
Stock head unit, fully faded forward, all flat, no EQ or anything that can change the signal, and no surround option on if it has it.

MS-8's inputs from stock head unit should be LF and RF, observing polarities and matching.

MS-8's outputs are as you stated, confirming each output also matches what the MS-8's calibration tests output, ie LF is LF. Polarity-matched 

Slopes should be 12 or 24dB, may take some fiddling to see what sounds best, and crossovers should be conservative (ie 6.5" midbass probably at 80hz or so). There should be NO passive crossovers in the way, unless you are using them to add speakers to an existing channel. With that tweeter, I'm unsure of its response but try 3k and see how it sounds.

Rear speakers should be crossed high, let's say 110 Hz or higher. 

Center, probably 300-350hz, depending on the speaker size (assuming 3.5" or so.)

Calibration should be done in as quiet a location as possible. For now, just calibrate one seat, drivers. 

MS-8's pink noise pre-calibration cycle, each speaker should measure ~ the same dB + or - a couple, max. This includes the sub, but note the sub will sound quiet. Volume should be normal speaking voice levels.


If you can make it to Vegas, I'll do my best. But maybe FordEscape can help you, he's in Texas but I'm not certain exactly where. I do know he's definitely on his game with this stuff, no question.


----------



## FordEscape

fourthmeal said:


> ....If you can make it to Vegas, I'll do my best. But maybe FordEscape can help you, he's in Texas but I'm not certain exactly where. I do know he's definitely on his game with this stuff, no question.


Thanks for the compliment but I'm 4-hrs from Dallas. I'm not 'in the 12v business' and while I like to try to help others, getting into hands-on work on other folks cars really isn't what this retiree prefers to do with his time, hope you understand.


----------



## 1lowlife

fourthmeal said:


> I think it may be time to invest in some equipment to measure everything. Do you have a calibrated mic and something like R.E.W. to run some measurements? I use the Umik but there's plenty of other good mics under $100. We need to see how the system is measuring speaker by speaker, and combined.
> 
> So I'm going to describe how I think your system should be wired, let me know if I'm missing anything or if you've changed anything.
> 
> ---
> Stock head unit, fully faded forward, all flat, no EQ or anything that can change the signal, and no surround option on if it has it.
> 
> MS-8's inputs from stock head unit should be LF and RF, observing polarities and matching.
> 
> MS-8's outputs are as you stated, confirming each output also matches what the MS-8's calibration tests output, ie LF is LF. Polarity-matched
> 
> Slopes should be 12 or 24dB, may take some fiddling to see what sounds best, and crossovers should be conservative (ie 6.5" midbass probably at 80hz or so). There should be NO passive crossovers in the way, unless you are using them to add speakers to an existing channel. With that tweeter, I'm unsure of its response but try 3k and see how it sounds.
> 
> Rear speakers should be crossed high, let's say 110 Hz or higher.
> 
> Center, probably 300-350hz, depending on the speaker size (assuming 3.5" or so.)
> 
> Calibration should be done in as quiet a location as possible. For now, just calibrate one seat, drivers.
> 
> MS-8's pink noise pre-calibration cycle, each speaker should measure ~ the same dB + or - a couple, max. This includes the sub, but note the sub will sound quiet. Volume should be normal speaking voice levels.
> 
> 
> If you can make it to Vegas, I'll do my best. But maybe FordEscape can help you, he's in Texas but I'm not certain exactly where. I do know he's definitely on his game with this stuff, no question.


I appreciate the help.
I'll look into this when I have more time.
I'll invest in a calibrated mic as well.
I've got some tools on my iPhone, Audio Tools I think, but I was using the iPhone mike.

I think I screwed up unplugging my sub knob, and that is why my sub is gone.
I can really quiet it down with the knob, even quieter than turning the gain all the way which is what I did on my last calibration.
But even when my sub was powerful, is was muddled and no clean thump.

I've got a 4 inch Focal for a center.
For now I'm using default settings for the crossovers on the MS-8, but I'll take notes of what you wrote.
I actually printed out your response to have in the truck.

Everything sounded OK, before I messed with it this past weekend.
But from what I've read here and even on my Tundra forums, it should sound way better than what I have/had.

Again, this surround sound in the front speakers in L7 has really thrown me off.
I'll do master reset and start over.
I'll also test polarity (which I've done before).
I might even bypass those passive crossovers since the MS-8 should be doing the work there.

I'm going to watch some youtube videos on Understanding Frequency, How to Use An Equalizer, and how to use an RTA.

I just need an entire day to test, calibrate, take notes, and recalibrate and take notes to zero this thing in.
An entire day free of chores, and honey dos is hard to come by.
The reason I did it last weekend was the warden was in Shreveport with the girls.
Freedom....

I want to make this MS-8 work.
I really don't want another Audio Control equalizer unit or laptop programmed DSP because I don't have the time, patience, or knowledge to set it up.

Thank you for your time fourthmeal, I really appreciate.

I miss the days of my 82 Camaro with a Pioneer Supertuner, 4 JVC speakers, 2 Fosgate Punch amps, and a homemade sub box (made out of 2X6 and 2X10 pine boards) with 2 8" Kickers..
I thought I was the sh!t back then when I was 20..:laugh:



FordEscape said:


> Thanks for the compliment but I'm 4-hrs from Dallas. I'm not 'in the 12v business' and while I like to try to help others, getting into hands-on work on other folks cars really isn't what this retiree prefers to do with his time, hope you understand.


I understand.
I barely have time to mess with my truck working 60 hour weeks.
That is why it has taking me over a year to even recalibrate my MS-8.
It is fixing to be our busiest time of the year until December 25th.

You just enjoy your retirement, you worked to hard and long not to enjoy it.
I hope to be joining you in retirement, perhaps in the next 5 or so years..


----------



## Lanson

FordEscape said:


> Thanks for the compliment but I'm 4-hrs from Dallas. I'm not 'in the 12v business' and while I like to try to help others, getting into hands-on work on other folks cars really isn't what this retiree prefers to do with his time, hope you understand.


Of course. Its a hobby for me as well, totally understand.


----------



## glockcoma

I did not know the HU is supposed to be faded all the way front. 
Does this make a big difference?


----------



## Lanson

glockcoma said:


> I did not know the HU is supposed to be faded all the way front.
> Does this make a big difference?


Its just something I do, doesn't mean you have to. You see, when it runs the input calibration with that weird-sounding repetitive tone, it is looking at all inputs for a way to get that sound reproduced (I'm using an analogy here, that's not exactly how it works) It is advised to use as few inputs as necessary to get this to work. I have found it useful to continue to tap the center channel if the factory head unit or Bluetooth or some other feature uses it. Rears, I've tapped before but it doesn't seem to benefit the MS-8. Sub, I've tapped before but disconnected to get a cleaner response, as it would distort (the MS-8 calibration reported a "noisy" signal) at lower volumes than without. 

Hope that helps.


----------



## USS Enterprise

OK, need some ms-8 help here, guys.

I am all level matched, and have run the auto tune.

However, I am having two issues.

NUMBER ONE:
I am having a light bit of static. It's not quite audible, but it exists. It seems to only happen with the ms-8's onboard xo's activated.

If I play a speaker, say the midbass, full range, there is no static.

As soon as I activate the xo, the static appears.

For example - set the xo 20-250 24db on both ends. And Play ONLY the midbasses (all other speakers off, fuses for the amps pulled)
You can hear static in the signal.
Hard to hear, but it's there.

Same for mids and tweets. Harder to hear, but present.

The same static is NOT present when bypassing the ms-8 and running straight from the deck. Both full range and same xo points.

Same amp, same speakers. The only difference is bypassing the ms-8. I am fairly certain the ms-8 is the cause. But why? Is the ms-8 messing up somehow?
BTW if tested both processing on and off, makes no difference. The static is there.
Which leads me to issue number two....

NUMBER TWO:
The ms-8 auto cal makes it sound like I'm listening to music through a tin can! I swear, I've heard clock radios sound better than this....

I am level matched (roughly via app on phone) and with processing disabled it sounds FANTASTIC. Best I've heard yet in this car. Just utterly phenomenal.

As soon as I turn processing on, clock radio city. I lose all fullness, most of the bass, and many of the instruments just disappear. All staging is gone. When I say clock radio, I mean it. My daughter's alarm clock sounds better than this. (albeit nowhere near as loud obviously)

I've reset the system, both via software and the reset button. Multiple times. I've rerun the auto cal multiple times. (once per reset, if I have to run it again I reset and start over)
I understand tuning needs to be done after the auto cal, but hell, there's just nothing to work with. It's that bad.

Yes, I made sure the headset wasn't backwards. Yes, Phasing is correct. Yes, the levels are close to matched. Yes, Logic 7 is off being as I have no center.
I've done all I can think of.
And as I said, with processing off it's beautiful. Stages great, fantastic dynamics, great volume, clarity is wonderful (except the aforementioned static issue).

On, it just plain sucks.

So....what could be wrong here? Sound like the ms-8 may be having issues?
This is not what I expected.


----------



## t3sn4f2

USS Enterprise said:


> OK, need some ms-8 help here, guys.
> 
> I am all level matched, and have run the auto tune.
> 
> However, I am having two issues.
> 
> NUMBER ONE:
> I am having a light bit of static. It's not quite audible, but it exists. It seems to only happen with the ms-8's onboard xo's activated.
> 
> If I play a speaker, say the midbass, full range, there is no static.
> 
> As soon as I activate the xo, the static appears.
> 
> For example - set the xo 20-250 24db on both ends. And Play ONLY the midbasses (all other speakers off, fuses for the amps pulled)
> You can hear static in the signal.
> Hard to hear, but it's there.
> 
> Same for mids and tweets. Harder to hear, but present.
> 
> The same static is NOT present when bypassing the ms-8 and running straight from the deck. Both full range and same xo points.
> 
> Same amp, same speakers. The only difference is bypassing the ms-8. I am fairly certain the ms-8 is the cause. But why? Is the ms-8 messing up somehow?
> BTW if tested both processing on and off, makes no difference. The static is there.
> Which leads me to issue number two....
> 
> NUMBER TWO:
> The ms-8 auto cal makes it sound like I'm listening to music through a tin can! I swear, I've heard clock radios sound better than this....
> 
> I am level matched (roughly via app on phone) and with processing disabled it sounds FANTASTIC. Best I've heard yet in this car. Just utterly phenomenal.
> 
> As soon as I turn processing on, clock radio city. I lose all fullness, most of the bass, and many of the instruments just disappear. All staging is gone. When I say clock radio, I mean it. My daughter's alarm clock sounds better than this. (albeit nowhere near as loud obviously)
> 
> I've reset the system, both via software and the reset button. Multiple times. I've rerun the auto cal multiple times. (once per reset, if I have to run it again I reset and start over)
> I understand tuning needs to be done after the auto cal, but hell, there's just nothing to work with. It's that bad.
> 
> Yes, I made sure the headset wasn't backwards. Yes, Phasing is correct. Yes, the levels are close to matched. Yes, Logic 7 is off being as I have no center.
> I've done all I can think of.
> And as I said, with processing off it's beautiful. Stages great, fantastic dynamics, great volume, clarity is wonderful (except the aforementioned static issue).
> 
> On, it just plain sucks.
> 
> So....what could be wrong here? Sound like the ms-8 may be having issues?
> This is not what I expected.


If by static you mean the typical gains are too high type hiss, then I'd say that just another problem from a poor cal session. I would keep playing with the gains and see if you can get a more coherent match. If you're using an app and tones, try pink noise from each side and listen for it to sound as close as it would to when you have headphones on with that media. Do it from the left and right separately, then put them together and see if it gets more tonally correct. If it doesn't go back and play some more with each side. 

Basically the idea is to make the sound at your ear as much like sitting in a proper home stereo setup that is tonally set.

Also take breaks during the level matching session. Pink noise can fatigue you fairly quickly. And make sure that you aren't calibrating in a noisy environment what so ever. Stick the car in a garage, close the windows, get that background noise as low as possible so you can calibrate with the volume as low as possible.


----------



## billw

Something else to consider: the vast majority of problems with MS8 stem from playing the sweeps too loud during the calibration. What volume setting are you using on the MS8?

Many people have had success with volume setting in the -30 to -50 range. The best setting for your system will vary based on speakers and amplifier power.


----------



## FordEscape

Re: level setting and calibration volume, a 'quantitative' post I've bookmarked for my reference:


kaigoss69 said:


> Look guys, the absolute values for MS-8 calibration volume and amp gains mean nothing. In the end you need to make sure that
> 
> 1. The sweeps are at conversation volume
> 2. The sweeps between tweeter and midrange channels are all about the same volume (within 2-3 db)
> 3. The sweeps of dedicated midbass channels can be increased about 4-5 dB (I think this helps)
> 4. The sweeps of the subwoofer are very low volume (hear, but don't feel).
> 5. Use each speaker only in its usable frequency range (be conservative!).
> 
> The subwoofer sweeps are actually the most complicated part of the equation. It takes some experimentation to get it right. Sometimes though, no matter what you do the subwoofer does not get integrated correctly (either too boomy or the midbass sucks). Then it helps to set the system up such that the subs are assigned as front lows.
> 
> The amp gains can be set with the MS-8 hidden menu through "output identification" where it plays pink noise through each channel separately. This is the best way to level match all the channels. *For me, I set the MS-8 volume at -25, then shoot for around 75dB volume out of the mids and tweeters, measured at the driver head position. I set the midbass at 80, and the sub at 84. This works for me but your circumstances may be different*.


FWIW I've found that calibration works well for my system with the level about 6-10dB(A) *less* than kaigoss69's values at MS-8 volume -25.

My point is, agreeing with billw, try different calibration volume levels and don't hesitate to 'go low' for at least some trials.


----------



## USS Enterprise

t3sn4f2 said:


> If by static you mean the typical gains are too high type hiss, then I'd say that just another problem from a poor cal session. I would keep playing with the gains and see if you can get a more coherent match. If you're using an app and tones, try pink noise from each side and listen for it to sound as close as it would to when you have headphones on with that media. Do it from the left and right separately, then put them together and see if it gets more tonally correct. If it doesn't go back and play some more with each side.
> 
> Basically the idea is to make the sound at your ear as much like sitting in a proper home stereo setup that is tonally set.
> 
> Also take breaks during the level matching session. Pink noise can fatigue you fairly quickly. And make sure that you aren't calibrating in a noisy environment what so ever. Stick the car in a garage, close the windows, get that background noise as low as possible so you can calibrate with the volume as low as possible.


It's hard to explain. Very hard.
I do not mean background hiss or noise. I mean actual staticy sound, playing with the notes. Seems to happen at certain frequencies. Some songs have none, some have a lot.

I don't think most would notice it, but it's definitely there.

For example - 
Billy Idol - White wedding - Can hear a slight bit of static right after every drum beat, I'm talking milliseconds. The electric guitar has staticy overtones to it.

Heart - Magic Man - Can hear brief staticy bursts with the beat, seems to get worse the more that is going on in the song. (this song can get intense at times)

Poison - Nothin but a good time - The electric guitar is staticy, Brett Michaels' vocals are also, but less so.

I could give more examples. It's slight, but if you know it's there, noticeable.

I almost want to describe it as distortion, but it's not. At least not any kind of distortion I've ever heard.

And it's more noticeable at lower volumes. 6-8 is the sweet spot.

I don't think I can capture it. I don't think it would show up in a recording.
You'd have to be in the car, listening for it.

It's in the music. It changes with the music. 
Something is just not quite right.

Hell, I've even gone to my collection to make sure it's not in the source files from my discs. (everything is from usb, haven't tried my original discs yet because I'm an idiot)



billw said:


> Something else to consider: the vast majority of problems with MS8 stem from playing the sweeps too loud during the calibration. What volume setting are you using on the MS8?
> 
> Many people have had success with volume setting in the -30 to -50 range. The best setting for your system will vary based on speakers and amplifier power.


I'm calibrating at -35 for most of them, although I've tried -40, -30, and -25 as well. Same results.



FordEscape said:


> Re: level setting and calibration volume, a 'quantitative' post I've bookmarked for my reference:
> FWIW I've found that calibration works well for my system with the level about 6-10dB(A) *less* than kaigoss69's values at MS-8 volume -25.
> 
> My point is, agreeing with billw, try different calibration volume levels and don't hesitate to 'go low' for at least some trials.


That is some fantastic info! How do i get into this hidden menu? I've searched the thread, the site, and google and can't find anything. I've seen others ask as well, and not get an answer. (although I searched "secret menu" not "hidden menu" I'll give it a shot)


----------



## FordEscape

USS Enterprise said:


> .... How do i get into this hidden menu? ....


see this post http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1236212-post53.html

*BE VERY CAREFUL*, read that post 3 times over, print it and and highlight the warnings/caveats about no crossovers, no volume control, pass-thru, etc, etc. and read it 3 more times.

_DO NOT PASS THIS SIGNAL TO SPEAKERS WITHOUT EXTERNAL XO's/FILTERS AND PROTECTION._ If you don't have amps installed between the MS-8 and the speaker that let you set XO/filter protective levels for each driver .... *don't use this procedure*. Plus whatever tweeter protective device you use (you do, don't you?). 

Start with all amps adjusted for minimum output volume and carefully work your way up on each individually, mark the setting then roll it back before moving to the next. You can then restore those settings after the 'test'. Yes, take every possible precaution to avoid speaker disaster when in this mode.

REMEMBER - no XO's in the MS-8 will be activated and the noise is full-spectrum. *You can damage your speakers with this if not careful*.

  

*YMMV, use at your own risk, not responsible for damage/loss, etc, etc, etc*

Did I say "*BE VERY CAREFUL*" ?



(this is where I really appreciate MS-Axxxx series amps with their output level controls separate from gain)


----------



## FordEscape

One last tip ..... you're doing lots of calibration trials .... IMHO suggest you do a master reset on the remote menu (not the button on the unit) between each test to ensure things are truly getting back to null for each run with different parameters. It can't hurt anything.


----------



## t3sn4f2

USS Enterprise said:


> It's hard to explain. Very hard.
> I do not mean background hiss or noise. I mean actual staticy sound, playing with the notes. Seems to happen at certain frequencies. Some songs have none, some have a lot.
> 
> I don't think most would notice it, but it's definitely there.
> 
> For example -
> Billy Idol - White wedding - Can hear a slight bit of static right after every drum beat, I'm talking milliseconds. The electric guitar has staticy overtones to it.
> 
> Heart - Magic Man - Can hear brief staticy bursts with the beat, seems to get worse the more that is going on in the song. (this song can get intense at times)
> 
> Poison - Nothin but a good time - The electric guitar is staticy, Brett Michaels' vocals are also, but less so.
> 
> I could give more examples. It's slight, but if you know it's there, noticeable.
> 
> I almost want to describe it as distortion, but it's not. At least not any kind of distortion I've ever heard.
> 
> And it's more noticeable at lower volumes. 6-8 is the sweet spot.
> 
> I don't think I can capture it. I don't think it would show up in a recording.
> You'd have to be in the car, listening for it.
> 
> It's in the music. It changes with the music.
> Something is just not quite right.
> 
> Hell, I've even gone to my collection to make sure it's not in the source files from my discs. (everything is from usb, haven't tried my original discs yet because I'm an idiot)


That sounds like digital clipping that happens when a level either channel or band is boosted past 0dB (fullscale). It used to happen to me on my PC's soundcard mixer when I would set the level over the 0dB mark. Now that you mention it it sounds exactly like static. You should only notice it on parts of songs that have louder passages. 

You can know for sure by lowering the ms-8 master volume and raising your head unit's volume to compensate. That will free up the needed digital gain in the MS-8 and clean it up. Then you'll know the MS-8 is fine and just boosting something excessively, needing a different setup and calibration.


----------



## t3sn4f2

FordEscape said:


> One last tip ..... you're doing lots of calibration trials .... IMHO suggest you do a master reset on the remote menu (not the button on the unit) between each test to ensure things are truly getting back to null for each run with different parameters. It can't hurt anything.


True, I've heard Andy recommend that as well. Something about the internal memory stacking up and causing problems. He said that was also one of the possible causes of the "jet plane noise".


----------



## USS Enterprise

t3sn4f2 said:


> That sounds like digital clipping that happens when a level either channel or band is boosted past 0dB (fullscale). It used to happen to me on my PC's soundcard mixer when I would set the level over the 0dB mark. Now that you mention it it sounds exactly like static. You should only notice it on parts of songs that have louder passages.
> 
> You can know for sure by lowering the ms-8 master volume and raising your head unit's volume to compensate. That will free up the needed digital gain in the MS-8 and clean it up. Then you'll know the MS-8 is fine and just boosting something excessively, needing a different setup and calibration.


Hmmm....and with that, I think you've nailed it. From what you are saying, I believe that is exactly what I am experiencing.

In loud passages, it happens more obviously. I played a long, fast drum solo, it was plain as day.

I will do exactly as you stated, and see what happens.

My setup, AFTER the auto cal has run, has the ms-8 master volume at -5. I never, ever change it. I set it at -5 and forget it. I've seen that as the recommended level many times. I am open to changing it if that's the case.

I have never run it at 0, and so far I have not even made it to the manual eq'ing stage, therefore the EQ on the ms-8 is completely flat. (with processing disabled)

Obviously, any eq or processing on the deck is disabled.

My gains only needed to be adjusted a hair from minimum in level matching, so obviously I have LOTS of room to reset them a bit higher, relative to the ms-8 master volume in order to get the same level.

Although, I am a little confused as to why this is happening. I am not overdriving the input stage with too hot of an input signal. The Alpine does have 4v outputs, but at 4-8 on the volume, the signal is WAY less than a volt. Well within the ms-8's range.

Everything is flat. I have not messed with a single manual setting except for xo control.

I've seen many others run at -5 on the volume and be fine.

If digital clipping is happening, and something is being pushed past 0db causing the issue, what can be the cause?

It's great if I can fix it, or at least compensate for it, but I still want to know how and why.

Unless -5 on the volume is really just pushing the ms-8 too hard, too close to it's limits.

BTW this is my first DSP, so forgive me if I have dumb questions, or noobish ideas or understanding of this. For years, I have used all analog equipment, just until a few months ago. S in a way, this is all brand new to me. 
Starting at step one again. Man, how times have changed. I love the learning experience.


----------



## Lanson

I run my MS-8 at about -14 or so, and I'm good with that. Having a good grip on the head unit's distortion point (where the MS-8 calibration process finds a "noisy" signal, and then you back it down some more) not EVER going above that, is important. That's like your digital ceiling. And then setting up your remaining gain structure so you get the volume you want without bumping into any ceiling, that's pretty much it. 

I feel like anytime the MS-8 (or any digital processing unit) has to compensate aggressively for something, distortion can result. Reason that I think I'm beginning to understand, is that the steeper a slope of a corrective filter, the higher time-domain distortion required. There's always more phase change to pull this off. Higher Q filters basically. So if you have a hole in your response and the MS-8 creates an aggressive filter to compensate, this may be a source for digital distortion. I picked up on this effect when programming a super-steep filter into a C-DSP 6x8 once.


----------



## banshee28

So....I have a MS-8 that I have been configuring for a few days now. I can definitely see the difference and improvement when the calibration runs, so I know things are starting to get better!

HOWEVER..... I am still not done with all my speakers and so far experiencing a rather strange phenomena (at least to me, lol).

I am pretty sure at some point this worked, but now EVERY time I run a polarity track for In Phase and Out of Phase, the In Phase runs fine (although I can tell its probably "out of phase" at this point) but once the out of phase track starts, the sound cuts out 99%!!! It seems like some processing is actually overriding the sound and cancelling it!!

I could not figure it out for days...............Today I had an idea...........I figured maybe its the Logic 7 (which I dont know why I even want/need it for a Front only setup, no dedicated center).... I think even if you disable it, once a new Calibration is done, it enables again. Anyways, I turned it OFF, and ran the polarity tracks again. This time they played perfectly. I ALSO noticed that the out of phase track was the "good" one and in phase was not. 

So first any idea WHY I cant properly run a in/out phase track with L7 ON. 

I swapped a mid on the amp and got the phase pretty good now, but still trying to figure out if this L7 situation is an issue.


----------



## FordEscape

L7 treats the out of phase signal as low-level ambient rear fill (attenuation and delay) - all is behaving as it should with L7 on. If you play a completely out of phase track with L7 on you will hear only the ambient rear fill (low level and delayed relative to the non-existent in-phase majority sound). Enjoy L7 with real music that's majority in-phase from the front stage.

Do all your hookups with everything in phase, correct polarity, and tune.

Only after all else fails if you still have a subsonic or subsonic - midbass issue, then _maybe_ try selective post-calibration phase games to address that rare environmental issue. 

Turn processing off to do audio phase test games.

IMHO.


----------



## banshee28

FordEscape said:


> L7 treats the out of phase signal as low-level ambient rear fill (attenuation and delay) - all is behaving as it should with L7 on. Enjoy L7 with real music that's majority in-phase from the front stage.
> 
> Turn processing off to do audio phase test games.


Nice, so there is a reason why this was happening!! 

Thanks....


----------



## banshee28

Also meant to ask...I am using an Audioengine B1 USB DAC to connect to the MS-8 via RCA's. I am using the AUX input. Is this optimal, and if so I seem to feel the max volume from my phone's BT output is very clean with no clipping, but without using the Input setup, I was not sure.


----------



## Lanson

banshee28 said:


> Also meant to ask...I am using an Audioengine B1 USB DAC to connect to the MS-8 via RCA's. I am using the AUX input. Is this optimal, and if so I seem to feel the max volume from my phone's BT output is very clean with no clipping, but without using the Input setup, I was not sure.


IMO, if you can get to your target volume and there's no appreciable noise /hiss or any distortion on the transients (peaks) of response, I don't see why not. With the Aux input, all input EQ is flat so that's helpful for low distortion.


----------



## banshee28

fourthmeal said:


> IMO, if you can get to your target volume and there's no appreciable noise /hiss or any distortion on the transients (peaks) of response, I don't see why not. With the Aux input, all input EQ is flat so that's helpful for low distortion.


Thanks, I think thats whats happening. I crank up my phone all the way and its still crystal clear. I crank up MS8 over -10db I hear hiss. I turn down phone and up MS8 and same hiss after -10db, so I think the phone is clean. Amps are about 50% now and volume is pretty good, still tweaking.


----------



## Lanson

banshee28 said:


> Thanks, I think thats whats happening. I crank up my phone all the way and its still crystal clear. I crank up MS8 over -10db I hear hiss. I turn down phone and up MS8 and same hiss after -10db, so I think the phone is clean. Amps are about 50% now and volume is pretty good, still tweaking.


-14 is where I'm at now with my setup, and it gets louder than I need without getting past "noisy point" on my stock head unit's dial. Not Scientific by any stretch but it does show that the MS-8 can be pretty clean on noise floor. Other processors I've used haven't done as well, historically.


----------



## 1lowlife

So I dabbled with the calibrations again today.
No matter what I do, I'm getting L7 surround in my front speakers with L7 on.
I even set the system up with the front 2 way speakers only, no sub, no center, no side.
Still had L7 surround in the front speakers.
Turn off L7 and it sounds OK, just OK.


I never have, and apparently never will, get satisfactory results with my MS-8 that you guys seem to be getting.
It never has sounded good after countless setups, calibrations, and resets.
The stock setup sounded better with stock amp and stock speakers.
Only the stock system lacked bass and wasn't loud enough. 

I've got $800 invested in Focal speakers, $1000 in Alpine amps, $500 in this MS-8, and $1000 in a JL Audio Stealthbox.
This system should sound outstanding, and it never has in the 2 years I've had it.
The only time is sounded halfway decent was with the initial AC LC7i I had in there before the MS-8.

I guess it is back to Audiocontrols stuff, I have no laptop or enough knowledge for any of the laptop controlled DSPs.

Hell, I can't even sell the MS-8 in good conscience.
Not with the L7 on the wrong channel.


----------



## FordEscape

1lowlife said:


> .....No matter what I do, I'm getting L7 surround in my front speakers with L7 on......


What exactly do you mean by "_I'm getting L7 surround in my front speakers_" (or "..._the other way around_..." as posted here http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/4264490-post11820.html )?

I'm trying to understand what that means and why/if that's a problem. I struggle to understand because to me "L7 surround" isn't something that emanates from any single 'location pair' but is a result of the totality of all the speaker locations.

I've read back through every one of your posts since your first on 3/29/15. At several points in your roller-coaster trials you've realized you had some serious misconceptions about how the MS-8 works and what L7 does. Have you re-read and comprehended this explanation by Andy in this post : http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1002963-post2151.html

Honestly, I'm not trying to be a Dik but I'm wondering if you are among those that just doesn't prefer the environment created by L7 even when it is calibrated, tuned and working perfectly as intended.

Andy has acknowledged that some folks just prefer music strongly L-R separated and with lots of sound from the 'back of the room'. While that may not be an 'accurate' re-creation of a 'live' listening experience (or whatever you want to call the environment that L7 attempts to create) the fact is that some folks just don't like the 'L7 sound' when listening to their car sound system.

That's OK, but if that's the case then yeah, the MS-8 isn't for you. I don't _know_ that that's your situation, but I think it's an honest possibility to consider. 

Ignoring the _written_ 'raves' of others .... have you ever _personally_ sat in a car with a supposedly properly tuned MS-8+L7 setup and found that sound to your liking _when you listened to it first-hand_ (or first-ear ;-)?

Please understand, I'm not suggesting that there's anything 'wrong with you' and not in any way trying to insult or slam - quite the opposite - just trying to figure out what the real problem is after 18 months of trials and tribulations in spite of tons of good advice that by most any measure _should_ have guided to a successful implementation for your Tundra if you followed through with care and diligence on the suggestions.


----------



## WilliamS

What is the proper way to setup the Sub Stage? I have it all layed out, I want to calibrate it to work as the MS8 desires, but be able to crank them to annoying when I want them loud for the windows down highway drives. Im mostly curious to the calibration as I would have to setup the subs at the same time, but leave myself headroom on the remote for that amp and not push them harder than designed.


----------



## Lanson

WilliamS said:


> What is the proper way to setup the Sub Stage? I have it all layed out, I want to calibrate it to work as the MS8 desires, but be able to crank them to annoying when I want them loud for the windows down highway drives. Im mostly curious to the calibration as I would have to setup the subs at the same time, but leave myself headroom on the remote for that amp and not push them harder than designed.



The MS-8 usually provides a very heavy bottom end, but in calibration you want the sub to be basically at the same dB as the rest of the speakers. During setup, you'll get to a pink noise test. Use a mic or even your phone with a simple RTA or dB app, and see if you can set the gains to all more or less equal the same dB as you move from speaker to speaker, as heard from the driver's seat. Once you have them all more or less the same volume, then run the calibration per spec and all should be good. 

I then recommend adjusting the 31 band EQ to suit your taste, and if you need, you can adjust the subwoofer gain a bit, and/or adjust the "bass shelf" that is the "subwoofer" section in the audio menu, but bear in mind that is a bass shelf at 60Hz and down, so you can also end up adjusting other speakers in the system if your crossovers are low enough. Not a huge deal, just don't boost too much with that setting. Mine is flat, and my 31 band has some cuts at a high point of cabin gain in my trunk of my SUV, and some minor boosts on the low end to get a bit more complete fullness out of it. Other than that, its a tame EQ setting.

You can always add a "bass knob" to your sub amp and just boost with that, on top of the basic setting. 

I've never found the MS-8 lacking bass in any build I've used it in.

edit: Remember the MS-8 can't sense phase issues between channels, so you may need to flip polarity on something to get the right response. In my case, my front woofers are flipped. I tried my subs but it sounded odd, where flipping the mids made everything savvy. You can get a good calibrated mic and REW software, and measure this if your ears can't tell you what's going on.


----------



## WilliamS

fourthmeal said:


> The MS-8 usually provides a very heavy bottom end, but in calibration you want the sub to be basically at the same dB as the rest of the speakers. During setup, you'll get to a pink noise test. Use a mic or even your phone with a simple RTA or dB app, and see if you can set the gains to all more or less equal the same dB as you move from speaker to speaker, as heard from the driver's seat. Once you have them all more or less the same volume, then run the calibration per spec and all should be good.
> 
> I then recommend adjusting the 31 band EQ to suit your taste, and if you need, you can adjust the subwoofer gain a bit, and/or adjust the "bass shelf" that is the "subwoofer" section in the audio menu, but bear in mind that is a bass shelf at 60Hz and down, so you can also end up adjusting other speakers in the system if your crossovers are low enough. Not a huge deal, just don't boost too much with that setting. Mine is flat, and my 31 band has some cuts at a high point of cabin gain in my trunk of my SUV, and some minor boosts on the low end to get a bit more complete fullness out of it. Other than that, its a tame EQ setting.
> 
> You can always add a "bass knob" to your sub amp and just boost with that, on top of the basic setting.
> 
> I've never found the MS-8 lacking bass in any build I've used it in.
> 
> edit: Remember the MS-8 can't sense phase issues between channels, so you may need to flip polarity on something to get the right response. In my case, my front woofers are flipped. I tried my subs but it sounded odd, where flipping the mids made everything savvy. You can get a good calibrated mic and REW software, and measure this if your ears can't tell you what's going on.



Ill likely use the knob, tell me if this is something that will work. Using the pink noise calibration I can set the sub amp to max power that the subs will handle, then use the remote to match the levels of the other speakers. 

This should keep me from overpowering them if I use this method correct? That way at the lower setting on the knob they will blend with the system, and when I want to show them off I just crank the knob. Using this method I should be safe not to blow them out . . .

On top of this my truck has 4 4x9's in it and 2 3.5s in the dash. I will systematically start swapping them all over to better drivers but I was going to crossover the 6x9s somewhere in the 60-80 range so that the subs wont be required for some low end, the dash 3.5's I'm up in the air where to cross them, my first thoughts are in the 600+ range but I don't know yet. When I start going active with the MS8 is when I will really spend some seat time getting the drivers to compliment each other as best I can with what I will be able to afford.


----------



## FordEscape

WilliamS said:


> Ill likely use the knob, tell me if this is something that will work......


I use the MS-WBC 'bass-boost knob' with my MS-Axxxx amps for 'on the fly tweaking' of bass to fit my preference for playback of certain music tracks (sometimes boosting bass, sometimes attenuating bass). I use the knob simply because it is more convenient for me than using the MS-8 remote menu controls - I don't use the MS-8 remote control at all when driving, the knob allows 'bass-tweak-by-touch' without any visual distraction. While using the particular 'shelf-filtering' scheme of all 'JBL MS-x' devices, the MS-WBC is basically the same in intent and purpose as any other 'bass-boost knob'.

FWIW here's how I do the setup (fourthmeal may have a better idea ;-):

1. Set the gain on all amps per Andy's oft-repeated "2v and don't sweat it" guidance.

2. Set the bass-boost knob to 'middle' so I have range to either attenuate or boost bass as preferred for particular tracks.

3. Proceed with MS-8 setup. Without touching the boost knob, go through the speaker level setting routine during the MS-8 setup speaker-test described by fourthmeal - tweak amp gain (or in my case the separate MS-A series amp output level control) but NOT the bass boost knob as required to get good basic speaker levels before continuing to the acoustic calibration steps. As mentioned, use a phone app or other dB measuring device ... the Sub may seem low - don't fight it, roll with it ;-)

4. Complete MS-8 calibration / auto-tune.

IMHO this approach yields good results - you aren't using the 'boost knob' as a basic level-setting device, you are saving it for its intended purpose of tweaking bass up-or-down for particular music tracks. If you find you are running with the knob in a 'boost' or 'attenuated' setting 90% of the time, tweak the MS-8 sub frequency EQ to 're-center' the bass boost for your 90% listening preference.

But maybe that's ^ what ya'll were saying all along


----------



## mitchyz250f

Question about using mid/tweeter crossovers with the MS8. I think Andy has said in the past to just use a cap on a tweeter because making a higher order crossover is difficult. I'm thinking that if you test your speakers with a speaker tester or can get a FRD your could design a 2nd order crossover for use with the MS8 without to much difficulty. Do think I'm right here in thinking this or does it really show how little I know 

One more question. Typically when making a crossover you would use a resistors to balance any imbalances in speaker sensitivity. Is this necessary when using the MS8 or is it better to have the MS8 correct for sensitivity imbalances.


----------



## Lanson

mitchyz250f said:


> Question about using mid/tweeter crossovers with the MS8. I think Andy has said in the past to just use a cap on a tweeter because making a higher order crossover is difficult. I'm thinking that if you test your speakers with a speaker tester or can get a FRD your could design a 2nd order crossover for use with the MS8 without to much difficulty. Do think I'm right here in thinking this or does it really show how little I know
> 
> One more question. Typically when making a crossover you would use a resistors to balance any imbalances in speaker sensitivity. Is this necessary when using the MS8 or is it better to have the MS8 correct for sensitivity imbalances.


I'll speak to this, because I did build 3 2nd-order Bessel crossovers for my front stage, and successfully used it with an MS-8. So it absolutely works. All I did was pick drivers that I felt could cross over WELL within beaming territory, and ran a crossover point (about 5200hz) plan with some simple 2nd order calculator software, picking my impedance numbers based off the impedance charts at that frequency, per each driver. This was also compared with the "nominal" impedance figure and I did the calculations again, and I realized the difference was really small. So from there I simply picked out my caps and inductors, within the range of the "nominal" calculations, and the "measured" calculations from the graphs. Being a 2nd order crossover, I did flip my tweeter connection's polarity. 

I used 3 plastic project boxes with protoboard type inserts, and I ventilated the boxes with simple holes so it wouldn't hot-box. 

I have pics!

Boxes









Drilled and inserted rubber grommet on each end









Test-fit (you'll see I got better at this as I went)









Wired









One done









I hate weak connections so I used XT60's all around. They are available in bulk on eBay, just might have to shop around for a vendor that sells legit ones









They look nice I think. I used different colored stripes in my techflex to cover center, left, and right channels to make it easier for me to remember what's going on










So these were then stuffed and zip-tied into the dash area, all of them secured to prevent rattles in the dash. 

The MS-8 is pretty smart about handling phase and EQ issues using its biquad filters, in a passive system. I got it within 10% or so by picking my passive components fairly carefully (and I did have to unwind some inductors a few turns to get closer to target), but the rest is the MS-8's ability to "fix" the response.


----------



## Lanson

I think you nailed it my man.

Really you just want to set your gains so everything is at a speaking volume level, during calibration, with the MS-8's gain down in the -25 through -35 ish range, give or take. That leaves PLENTY of available volume in the system, unless it is extremely under-powered. The sub will certainly be quiet in the tests, but the boost the MS-8's house curve pushes into the system will make for a ton more low end than the test presents. Just don't over-volume anything during the calibration phase, make sure everything is reasonably dB matched and at speaking volume levels, not shouting levels. Oh, and make sure you've got a very quiet background to work with. I have to do it in the closed garage close to night time, and make sure no planes are flying overhead at the time of the sweeps.



FordEscape said:


> I use the MS-WBC 'bass-boost knob' with my MS-Axxxx amps for 'on the fly tweaking' of bass to fit my preference for playback of certain music tracks (sometimes boosting bass, sometimes attenuating bass). I use the knob simply because it is more convenient for me than using the MS-8 remote menu controls - I don't use the MS-8 remote control at all when driving, the knob allows 'bass-tweak-by-touch' without any visual distraction. While using the particular 'shelf-filtering' scheme of all 'JBL MS-x' devices, the MS-WBC is basically the same in intent and purpose as any other 'bass-boost knob'.
> 
> FWIW here's how I do the setup (fourthmeal may have a better idea ;-):
> 
> 1. Set the gain on all amps per Andy's oft-repeated "2v and don't sweat it" guidance.
> 
> 2. Set the bass-boost knob to 'middle' so I have range to either attenuate or boost bass as preferred for particular tracks.
> 
> 3. Proceed with MS-8 setup. Without touching the boost knob, go through the speaker level setting routine during the MS-8 setup speaker-test described by fourthmeal - tweak amp gain (or in my case the separate MS-A series amp output level control) but NOT the bass boost knob as required to get good basic speaker levels before continuing to the acoustic calibration steps. As mentioned, use a phone app or other dB measuring device ... the Sub may seem low - don't fight it, roll with it ;-)
> 
> 4. Complete MS-8 calibration / auto-tune.
> 
> IMHO this approach yields good results - you aren't using the 'boost knob' as a basic level-setting device, you are saving it for its intended purpose of tweaking bass up-or-down for particular music tracks. If you find you are running with the knob in a 'boost' or 'attenuated' setting 90% of the time, tweak the MS-8 sub frequency EQ to 're-center' the bass boost for your 90% listening preference.
> 
> But maybe that's ^ what ya'll were saying all along


----------



## 1lowlife

FordEscape said:


> What exactly do you mean by "_I'm getting L7 surround in my front speakers_" (or "..._the other way around_..." as posted here http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/4264490-post11820.html )?
> 
> I'm trying to understand what that means and why/if that's a problem. I struggle to understand because to me "L7 surround" isn't something that emanates from any single 'location pair' but is a result of the totality of all the speaker locations.
> 
> I've read back through every one of your posts since your first on 3/29/15. At several points in your roller-coaster trials you've realized you had some serious misconceptions about how the MS-8 works and what L7 does. Have you re-read and comprehended this explanation by Andy in this post : http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1002963-post2151.html
> 
> Honestly, I'm not trying to be a Dik but I'm wondering if you are among those that just doesn't prefer the environment created by L7 even when it is calibrated, tuned and working perfectly as intended.
> 
> Andy has acknowledged that some folks just prefer music strongly L-R separated and with lots of sound from the 'back of the room'. While that may not be an 'accurate' re-creation of a 'live' listening experience (or whatever you want to call the environment that L7 attempts to create) the fact is that some folks just don't like the 'L7 sound' when listening to their car sound system.
> 
> That's OK, but if that's the case then yeah, the MS-8 isn't for you. I don't _know_ that that's your situation, but I think it's an honest possibility to consider.
> 
> Ignoring the _written_ 'raves' of others .... have you ever _personally_ sat in a car with a supposedly properly tuned MS-8+L7 setup and found that sound to your liking _when you listened to it first-hand_ (or first-ear ;-)?
> 
> Please understand, I'm not suggesting that there's anything 'wrong with you' and not in any way trying to insult or slam - quite the opposite - just trying to figure out what the real problem is after 18 months of trials and tribulations in spite of tons of good advice that by most any measure _should_ have guided to a successful implementation for your Tundra if you followed through with care and diligence on the suggestions.


Her goes the longest post ever, please bear with me.....

I appreciate your input, as well as everyone else here that has helped me.
My frustration may have you frustrated, sorry if that is the case.
But my MS-8 has NEVER sounded great, not even good.

The first NIB MS-8 I bought only put out 3 channels, sent that back and got the one I have now that was also NIB.

First off, I'm no audio expert.
I've installed audio in every vehicle I've ever owned, first one being an underdash Pioneer 8-track in my 69 Fairlane in 1978.
Best system I ever had was a 94 Chevy extend cab pickup.
Pioneer HU, 3 Fosgate amps, 2 8" Kicker subs in a custom box under the rear seat, can't remember what door speakers I had.
My 2005 Tundra had stock speakers, the same 3 amps, a Pioneer HU, and a custom made box with a 8" Fosgate sub that sounded better than this MS-8 ever has.
So I know what does and what doesn't sound good to me or anyone else in the vehicle.

I'm now running a 2014 Tundra stock HU, an Alpine PDX V9 (front 2 way separate channels with sub), Alpine MRV-F300 (rears on 2 channels, center bridged on the other 2)
Speakers; Focal 2 way front, Focal coaxial rear, 4" Focal coaxial center, twin 10" Stealthbox sub.

I've read and reread this thread plenty in the last 18 months as well as the BMW forums that discuss the MS-8.
I also think I have an understanding of what the MS-8 is supposed to do from reading here.
Have I ever heard one?
NO, not one fu*king audio store (that I called last year) in DFW has experience with them.
Some of them told me 'OH THE MS-8s ARE ONLY FOR HIGH END CARS LIKE BMW, BUT I CAN SELL YOU *****".
So, I'm kinda on my own as far as that goes.

And no, I'm not opposed to front staging, I had that with my first semi-successful calibrations last year.
But I never got the great clear sound y'all talk about.
These Focal PS 165 FX have never sounded anywhere near as good in my Tundra as they did the dealers shop I bought them from.
Same for the Focal rears and center.
The bass out of my twin 10' Stealthbox is either nonexistent, overpowering, or when it does calibrate well(?), the sound is too muddy.
It doesn't thump, it thuds, I hope that makes sense.
It has never had the punch my past setups have had with just an 8" sub.
It was literally clearer and sounded better with the AC LC7i.

On to the L7.
You know as well as I do when L7 is activated, the rear door speakers sound like something you'd hear in a home theater surround sound.
When I did have the MS-8 up and running successfully (still didn't sound that great) the L7 surround sound was dominate in the rear door speakers.
When I had people riding in the back seat I'd have to turn the L7 off.
When I faded to the rear seats with L7 on, it was a distinctive sound of a surround system in the rear speakers.
With L7 off, they had full sound.
With the L7 on and faded to the front speakers, I didn't really hear a surround type of signal, it sounded full range in the front.

NOW, I have the reverse of that.
The rear speakers sound the same, L7 on or off.
The front speakers now have the surround effect (that I had in the rear) when the L7 is on.
I didn't switch any wiring, I didn't change any setting as far as which channel is what.
For the hell of it, I set up with 2 way front only, no sub. no center, no rear/side.
I had that surround sound effect in my front speakers with the L7 on.
Is it supposed to be that way?

I think when I have time, I'm going to set it up as a 3 way front.
Instead of a sub setup, I'm going to use front HI, front MID, and set the sub on front LO just to see what happens.
I bought this MS-8 because I wanted to keep my center dash speaker, never had one in any vehicle I've owned.
All the AudioControl products don't allow for a center speaker setup.

I promise you if I could find someone in the Dallas/Ft Worth area to help me, I'd meet them on their terms and pay them $100 to help me set this MS-8 up.

I want it to work, but after countless calibrations, variations of setups (crossover settings, channel selection, running channels off amps and the MS-8, buying another amp for the rear doors and center to have no channels amped off the MS-8, etc..) 
I've had no luck with a successful result.
Not the crystal clear, best thing ever, results you guys talk about.

All speakers are in proper polarity.
I've switched the sub polarity, made no difference.
I've done speaker decibel matching of amp gains using the MS-8 test tones and wave tones off my iPhone.
I've used the Focal crossover for the Focal PS 165FX, I've bypassed the crossover for the Focal PS 165FX.
I've done calibrations with the amp gains down to minimum, amps gains at 2V (halfway up for my Alpine amps), you name it.

My iPhone is all I have.
I use AudioTools app but I only have the iPhone mic.
I thought about buying another mic thinking that might help with my testing.

If there is ANYPLACE for me to ***** about the MS-8 not working like you guys say it does, this thread is that place.
I WANT IT TO WORK.
I want to keep my center channel.
I like having the dash sound like a sound stage.

I know it is installed correctly. 
I really wish there was someone locally I could take it to.
But what I've found in my local (Dallas) audio shops are these guys that are completely full of sh!t.
They are no different that cars salesmen. acting like they know whats up yet they don't know sh!t.
One audio shop wanted to charge me $4000 to install an LC7i, 2 JL amps, and 4 bottom end Focal speakers and a sub box (JL Audio SB-T-TUNDC) that would not have even fit in my 2014 Tundra.

That is what I'm dealing with when it comes to local installers and shops.
I'm on my own here.

Sorry for the rant, but I do truly appreciate ALL the help I've received here.


----------



## 1lowlife

I killed the thread..

Sorry guys..


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## Nav360

Lol 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Golfntob

1lowlife said:


> I killed the thread..
> 
> Sorry guys..


Sent you a pm.


Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## josby

fourthmeal said:


> I have found it useful to continue to tap the center channel if the factory head unit or Bluetooth or some other feature uses it.


Which input do you typically run the center to? I having an issue with center channel sounds like hands-free calls being quiet and out-of-phase that, from reading here, I now think may require me to flip the polarity on the input from my factory center. But I wasn't sure whether I should connect it to input 1, then connect my lefts and rights, or should I put it after the lefts and rights? Or do you think it matters?


----------



## Lanson

josby said:


> Which input do you typically run the center to? I having an issue with center channel sounds like hands-free calls being quiet and out-of-phase that, from reading here, I now think may require me to flip the polarity on the input from my factory center. But I wasn't sure whether I should connect it to input 1, then connect my lefts and rights, or should I put it after the lefts and rights? Or do you think it matters?


So I usually put it on #3 or sometimes #5, but it doesn't matter. I'm also not 100% sure that the MS-8 really reads anything from it, if the main calibration tone setup doesn't pick up on something from the center when it does its thing. My Durango is LF woofer, LF tweeter (wasn't sure the woofer was full-range), RF woofer, RF tweeter, Center. So that would make it input #5. 

Using a terminal block to swap polarity real quick would be smart. My center bluetooth and all that is VERY sharp and clear in the Durango. Correct input polarity is vital for the Ms-8 on all speakers, Output polarity (like on the amps) can vary based on phasing issues from the car. The MS-8 does not measure phasing differences between, say, left front drivers and center, for instance.


----------



## tommymilan311

WilliamS said:


> What is the proper way to setup the Sub Stage? I have it all layed out, I want to calibrate it to work as the MS8 desires, but be able to crank them to annoying when I want them loud for the windows down highway drives. Im mostly curious to the calibration as I would have to setup the subs at the same time, but leave myself headroom on the remote for that amp and not push them harder than designed.


I haven't read anything below. Let me tell you what I did, then I'm going to read to see if there are even better solutions... Okay. So:

I kept my amp gain at 0 when the ms8 did its initial sound calibrations and set up. Once I was done with all that I tuned my amp gain to desired. I believe the MS8 plays with feed voltage to the amp to regulate how loud it is without adjusting gain.. so its probably up pretty high and you wont need a lot of gain adjustment. At this point "stupid" is going to be at your 0 set point. Then I turn my sub volume all the way down and slowing bring more power to it until I'm at the desired listening volume. 

IDK if this is the proper way, but it worked for me without boosting anything.


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## tommymilan311

1lowlife said:


> I killed the thread..
> 
> Sorry guys..


I see a lot about your speaker staging but not the environment you are putting them in.

You'll see a lot of these folk that tell you how great their sound is also tell you they spent countless hours treating the acoustic environment for optimal listening. 

I for one have taken the interior of my car completely out. I have treated it with sound deadening as well as insulated it to better heat/cool my car and provide a little more dampening to keep road noise out. I'm talking all 4 doors, the dash, the flooring, the ceiling, the rear deck, under the rear seats, and the trunk and trunk lid. You'll see a bigger improvement in speakers doing this, than changing your speakers. 

So, the reason the MS8 may not have worked as well as you hope was because the speaker environment was not optimal?


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## Lanson

This quote portion



tommymilan311 said:


> ...I believe the MS8 plays with feed voltage to the amp to regulate how loud it is without adjusting gain..


Makes no sense to me. Does anybody else understand this? All I get is that the MS-8 has a target curve and adjusts accordingly in the digital domain with FIR filters. And that's why its so important to adjust dB response on all speakers to roughly the same during the pink noise calibration phase.


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## Lanson

Also never "ask" (set in settings) the MS-8 to do something your speakers can't do. Don't use unrealistic crossover points, for instance. You have to keep things working within their optimal ranges. Go with conservative crossover points when in doubt.



tommymilan311 said:


> I see a lot about your speaker staging but not the environment you are putting them in.
> 
> You'll see a lot of these folk that tell you how great their sound is also tell you they spent countless hours treating the acoustic environment for optimal listening.
> 
> I for one have taken the interior of my car completely out. I have treated it with sound deadening as well as insulated it to better heat/cool my car and provide a little more dampening to keep road noise out. I'm talking all 4 doors, the dash, the flooring, the ceiling, the rear deck, under the rear seats, and the trunk and trunk lid. You'll see a bigger improvement in speakers doing this, than changing your speakers.
> 
> So, the reason the MS8 may not have worked as well as you hope was because the speaker environment was not optimal?


----------



## tommymilan311

fourthmeal said:


> This quote portion
> 
> 
> 
> Makes no sense to me. Does anybody else understand this? All I get is that the MS-8 has a target curve and adjusts accordingly in the digital domain with FIR filters. And that's why its so important to adjust dB response on all speakers to roughly the same during the pink noise calibration phase.


The MS8 also will adjust volume (Your driver side speakers wont be as loud as the passenger side speakers when set in the drivers position in order to balance the stage. If your drive speakers are too loud, it'll fade heavy to the left. It also does this with you bass. If the bass is too loud it'll muddy up/throw off your front stage. So adjust gain before calibration is almost useless in my experience. Regardless of where my gain was the MS8 would adjust my sub to about the same after calibration regardless.) The way it does this is by sending voltage to the amp through the component wires. Its the same concept as turning your HU volume down. If you measure voltage at the end of the component wire and drop your volume, the voltage drops. I believe the MS8 has up to a 8v feed, which is pretty high. My Pioneer only has a 2v or 4v if I'm not mistaken. 

So, what I'm saying is with your Sub amp gain at the lowest setting, the MS8 is probably going to send an 8v feed to it in order to get as much output as it can, with the amp at the lowest setting. So it shouldn't take a lot of gain to adjust your amp for 8v.

So I found calibrating the MS8 and then adjusting the amp gain worked best for getting higher output bass without boosting anything on the MS8 settings. Then I'd adjust the sub output down until it was about at the calibrated output. Then I set my EQs with no boosting past 0.


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## tommymilan311

Maybe the MS8 isn't a 8v max feed, maybe its 5v? But gain isn't volume. Your goal is to match gain with feed voltage.

The picture above uses "level" instead of gain. But it shows 5v-.2v. So a 5v feed needs minimal gain while a .2v feed will need max gain.


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## josby

fourthmeal said:


> So I usually put it on #3 or sometimes #5, but it doesn't matter. I'm also not 100% sure that the MS-8 really reads anything from it, if the main calibration tone setup doesn't pick up on something from the center when it does its thing.


Ok, thanks, mine's on #5 as well. I tried swapping the polarity of my center input last night, but the result was the same. But I think the issue for me might be what you mentioned there about calibration not picking up anything from the center. Do you know if your truck's stock system had music output on the center channel? If it didn't, it wouldn't even see the center during the calibration like you said. 

My car (Civic) has a "DTS Neural Surround" feature, but even when one disables it (as I did), it still outputs music to the center speaker. So I'm thinking maybe my MS-8 doesn't know how to handle it when it sees the left side of its calibration signal on #'s 1 3 and 5, then sees the right side on #'s 2 4 and 5. 

After I tried the polarity swapping, I also tried doing my calibration with the center input disconnected, then connecting it afterward. But the MS-8 seemed to just ignore it, because I couldn't hear navigation audio at all.


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## josby

1lowlife said:


> I really wish there was someone locally I could take it to.
> But what I've found in my local (Dallas) audio shops are these guys that are completely full of sh!t.


How about trying to find someone locally who also uses an MS-8 who might be willing to let you swap theirs into your car (or vice versa) to help you settle whether it's your MS-8 or something the environment you're calibrating it in that's the issue? Maybe look for a DIYMA meetup in your area?


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## dru21281

Great thread! Purchasing an MS8 today and the info here will help with the install and tuning


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## Lanson

Woah, we have incorrect info floating here.

MAX RMS RCA output on the MS-8 is 2V. It is more than sufficient for most amps to work with this. 

As far as I know, all adjustments to the signal input and output are done in the digital domain, so when we speak about volume, we are talking about digital filtering at all times. 

There is sufficient digital "headroom" to allow for aggressive EQ past "zero", and the MS-8 should have no issue producing a low-distortion output for the amps even with some peaks in there. HOWEVER, your amp(s) may suddenly find themselves out of headroom, if you're not careful. So, balancing that is required. 

As a precaution, I treat the -10dB master volume level as my max safe level at the MS-8, and when I EQ (beyond the biquad filtering the unit does on its own) with the 31 bander, I cut or boost as needed but try to stay under 6dB just as habit on boost. Clearly if I need more, something is not quite right with either my calibration (with crossovers or slopes investigated first), or my gains are off on one of my amps and I need to rethink that, and remeasure after a gain tweak... OR I've got a phase/polarity issue and a polarity swap and re-measure would be smart.
edit: 2.8V not 2V for those reading.


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## FordEscape

fourthmeal said:


> Woah, we have incorrect info floating here.....


Yepper. Relative to gain setting and bass currently being discussed...

For those relatively new to the thread (certainly not talking to fourthmeal ;-), perhaps review of the following posts by Andy would be useful .... the content is 'old' but it ain't invalid or out-of-date (remember to click on the thread link at the upper-right corner of the single post that opens to jump to that post location in the thread and browse for context and more useful info)

Andy on MS-8 GAIN SETTING

Andy on MS-8 SUB GAIN

MORE Andy on MS-8 SUB GAIN

And, for those that might find it helpful, the PDF that abridges the first 407 pages of this thread to 'only' 84 pages is still available here 1.08 mb PDF download of some of "Andy's Wisdom" from this thread


----------



## tommymilan311

HAHA. LMFAO so hard. all but call me out and say I'm wrong... but...

"The MS8 also will adjust volume (Your driver side speakers wont be as loud as the passenger side speakers when set in the drivers position in order to balance the stage. If your drive speakers are too loud, it'll fade heavy to the left. It also does this with you bass. If the bass is too loud it'll muddy up/throw off your front stage. So adjust gain before calibration is almost useless in my experience. Regardless of where my gain was the MS8 would adjust my sub to about the same after calibration regardless.) The way it does this is by sending voltage to the amp through the component wires. Its the same concept as turning your HU volume down. If you measure voltage at the end of the component Wire and drop your volume, the voltage drops. I believe the MS8 has up to a 8v feed, which is pretty high. My Pioneer only has a 2v or 4v if I'm not mistaken. "

I got my MS8 output voltage wrong... its 2.8v, not 8v, not 4v, not 2v. But condescendingly, you make is as tho, all was wrong. Because I don't use as many word as Andy here. But in a statement...

"When you run acoustic calibration, MS-8 will set all of the output levels according to the acoustic response in the car. This takes into account the sensitivity of the drivers and their frequency responses. Some outputs will be increased in level and some may be decreased. So long as there's no hiss, the output level and the input sensitivity control of your amps don't matter. Let MS-8 do what it does. "

So.. basically. The MS8 sets your gains. No? Or does it not adjust output?

Andy:
"MS-8 is designed to provide bass that's 9dB above the rest of your response. If you like a lot of bass, that's probably not going to be enough for you. When you do acoustic calibration, turn the sub bass amp DOWN. Then, MS-8 will boost the bass a bit. Then, after you've finished, turn the gain on your sub amp up. During the sweeps, if the sub sweep rattles the trunk, it's too loud. If you can feel the sub during the sweeps, it's too loud. "

whoa. I think I said that. 

Maybe it wasn't me being called out.


----------



## FordEscape

IMHO no one is trying to 'call anyone out' here, we're all just trying to help each other.

And (respectfully, IMHO) no, MS-8 does not "set your gains", basically or otherwise. It does accommodate a bit of tolerance relative to gain setting.

Not playing word games, the distinctions are perhaps nuanced, but important for a full understanding of what's going on.


----------



## tommymilan311

FordEscape said:


> IMHO no one is trying to 'call anyone out' here, we're all just trying to help each other.
> 
> And (respectfully, IMHO) no, MS-8 does not "set your gains", basically or otherwise. It does accommodate a bit of tolerance relative to gain setting.
> 
> Not playing word games, the distinctions are perhaps nuanced, but important for a full understanding of what's going on.


I agree. It was made as though my info was wrong. Perhaps terminology was wrong, or not to anyones specific liking. What I mean by "gains" is your output voltage. 
Which it would adjust. Correct? 2.8V is not equal to 1.6v at the output level. So, even negligible, it can not turn down, say the front drivers side, and have output voltage at the RCA equal to a louder speaker.. correct? 
And when adjusting gain, you adjust to match output voltage, correct? 

I'm not trying to be condescending, perhaps I'm not understanding how its working. 

But, your gains are based on in input voltage of the RCA wires to the amp. If you have 2.8v going in you adjust your gain to it. For example, your gain setting would not be as high with a 2.8v feed vs a 1v feed with output at the same level(Also why you don't adjust a under powered amp to higher powered speakers, over compensates through clipping, Amp will look for a 1.8v feed when you are giving it a 2.8v). If I were to do my acoustic tuning after setting my sub gains, my subs would be much quieter than before. How could the MS8 possibly turn the SUB output down without dropping the output Voltage of the RCAs? So perhaps it isn't adjusting the "gain" setting at the amp, but it surely is playing the gain by adjusting the output voltage. Or so I would think, IDK another way it could turn down the output to the speakers. 

Now, I personally set my sub gain after acoustic tuning my MS8, as advised by the Andy post. 

Not trying to sound disrespectful at all.. But I would surely say the MS8 adjusts your gains with its acoustic tuning. 

Set your gains? Not really. But for my sub, with my gain at 0% and 50% after acoustic adjustment were the same (to the ear).. so I'd say yes, it did set my sub gains, but I do have a over sized amp for my subs.

Just trying to make sure I have the right info.. but I honestly haven't seen it explained any differently. Maybe with different terms and wording.. same meaning and result.


----------



## Lanson

Nobody is calling anybody out. But putting out incorrect info harms others reading it. Referring to the guy that made the MS-8 possible is always a good idea, he is very smart and knows the machine inside and out. Try not to take it personally, I make mistakes and get corrected all the time and I'm grateful people took the time to correct me.

So for perfect clarity, Input, 2.8V max RMS, and output is 2.8V max RMS.

Andy has always maintained, however, that the best starting point for setting gains is right at 2V. My "Andy-isms" are stored in a big file on my home PC, for MS-8 knowledge and understanding, helps a ton.


----------



## tommymilan311

A better way to explain would be simple math
Lets say you have a 1500w amp and a output voltage of 2.8v. 

Thats about 535.75W per 1v, or a 535.75X amplification of the input voltage. So, if I dropped the input voltage down to 1v it drops the sub output down to 535 watts. So the gain is the amplification but the MS8 adjust the output through the output voltage. 

So. With my amps gain set to 5v. The MS8 might like the way it sounds with a 2.8v feed. Math says 2.8v on a 5v gain on a 1500w amp would be 840w. But if I had the gain set at 3v, it would only send 1.68v to the amp. Giving you the same 840w output.


----------



## Lanson

tommymilan311 said:


> A better way to explain would be simple math
> Lets say you have a 1500w amp and a output voltage of 2.8v.
> 
> Thats about 535.75W per 1v, or a 535.75X amplification of the input voltage. So, if I dropped the input voltage down to 1v it drops the sub output down to 535 watts. So the gain is the amplification but the MS8 adjust the output through the output voltage.
> 
> So. With my amps gain set to 5v. The MS8 might like the way it sounds with a 2.8v feed. Math says 2.8v on a 5v gain on a 1500w amp would be 840w. But if I had the gain set at 3v, it would only send 1.68v to the amp. Giving you the same 840w output.



Are you making sure to consider that power is not a linear calculation?


----------



## tommymilan311

fourthmeal said:


> Nobody is calling anybody out. But putting out incorrect info harms others reading it. Referring to the guy that made the MS-8 possible is always a good idea, he is very smart and knows the machine inside and out. Try not to take it personally, I make mistakes and get corrected all the time and I'm grateful people took the time to correct me.
> 
> So for perfect clarity, Input, 2.8V max RMS, and output is 2.8V max RMS.
> 
> Andy has always maintained, however, that the best starting point for setting gains is right at 2V. My "Andy-isms" are stored in a big file on my home PC, for MS-8 knowledge and understanding, helps a ton.


Yes. I had that wrong. I'll own up to that. I was going off memory and mixed up what product I was thinking of. Looking up specs it was 2.8v. When bench testing my Pioneer HU, despite manufacturer specs, had a un-clipped 8v sub feed when at volume 38 and sub adjustment level at 0. Highs did not clip until 38, MS8 liked 38 as well. I had to adjust my bass level down to -6 iirc for the MS8. 

But I should double check my info before posting.


----------



## Lanson

Here's a chart to help (edit, can't get the chart to output on the forum)

Here's a website with the chart

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/voltageloudness.html


----------



## tommymilan311

I'm not sure what the chart has to do with how a amplifier is working. It says, in simplified terms, that 2000 watts doesn't necessarily sound 4X louder than 500 watts, and not to clip your sound waves. Not that if you adjust your amp input voltage(RCAs) from 2.8v to .7v without adjusting gain that your amp output wattage(to subs) wont drop 75%. 

IG a better example would be simply turning your volume down from your HU. If you measure the voltage on your RCAs the voltage drops as your volume does. 

.... I think we are talking about two completely different things.

Edit:
Or reading more maybe it does. I'm trying to understand what they mean by "voltage" if its the voltage measured to the speaker?

FOUND THE DISCONNECT (I think)

Change everytime i said "output wattage" when speaking about the power the subs or speakers get, and change it with the voltage measured. I think that is where the chart plays in as well and what its means with "voltage" vs "Power" or watts.


----------



## josby

FordEscape said:


> I use the MS-WBC 'bass-boost knob' with my MS-Axxxx amps for 'on the fly tweaking' of bass to fit my preference for playback of certain music tracks (sometimes boosting bass, sometimes attenuating bass). I use the knob simply because it is more convenient for me than using the MS-8 remote menu controls - I don't use the MS-8 remote control at all when driving, the knob allows 'bass-tweak-by-touch' without any visual distraction. While using the particular 'shelf-filtering' scheme of all 'JBL MS-x' devices, the MS-WBC is basically the same in intent and purpose as any other 'bass-boost knob'.


I envy you that. My self-powered sub has a remote level adjustment knob, but I don't use it because of the way it shifts the acoustic crossover frequency, as Andy has mentioned many times:










So I use the MS-8's sub control, but being able to use a knob would be so much more convenient. 

I actually have some MS-Axxxx amps I'm gong to switch to, but finding an MS-WBC remote to buy seems impossible.


----------



## 1lowlife

tommymilan311 said:


> I see a lot about your speaker staging but not the environment you are putting them in.
> 
> You'll see a lot of these folk that tell you how great their sound is also tell you they spent countless hours treating the acoustic environment for optimal listening.
> 
> I for one have taken the interior of my car completely out. I have treated it with sound deadening as well as insulated it to better heat/cool my car and provide a little more dampening to keep road noise out. I'm talking all 4 doors, the dash, the flooring, the ceiling, the rear deck, under the rear seats, and the trunk and trunk lid. You'll see a bigger improvement in speakers doing this, than changing your speakers.
> 
> So, the reason the MS8 may not have worked as well as you hope was because the speaker environment was not optimal?



Been there, done that.

Before..



After..


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## I800C0LLECT

I haven't added any deadening to my vehicle. My mid-bass are under seats to avoid treating my doors. My midrange are in the kicks. Tweeters in the pillars. 

I'm sure treating the interior wood help quite a bit but it sounds great as is without that. It stages very well too. I treated the interior of my last vehicle and appreciated the difference but not the time, money, or trouble.

I don't think ms-8 requires the interior to be treated unless there's a random resonance throwing off measurements in a big way. A rattle was causing my sub volume to play low. Fixed and it set my sub volume much higher

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## 1lowlife

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why I hear the L7 effect in my front speakers when it was in the rear speakers. 

I've also noticed that my calibration sweeps are clearer and sound better than my radio ever has.

I ordered an adapter to use the Aux input with my iPhone. 
I'll try that this weekend.

I'm also going to print out my vehicle wiring schematic to make sure I have the correct input polarity.
I did that months ago, but I'm going to recheck it.

On resetting the unit;
Is there any difference in using the reset switch on the unit or resetting to default using the display?
I need a clean and total reset.

I want this MS-8 to work.
If I can't get it going next week, I'm going to try an AC DQ-61.
If that doesn't make me happy, I'm going to have to buy a new HU.


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## 1lowlife

I800C0LLECT said:


> I haven't added any deadening to my vehicle. My mid-bass are under seats to avoid treating my doors. My midrange are in the kicks. Tweeters in the pillars.
> 
> I'm sure treating the interior wood help quite a bit but it sounds great as is without that. It stages very well too. I treated the interior of my last vehicle and appreciated the difference but not the time, money, or trouble.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I agree.
My doors are so heavy they slam when people shut them.

I deadened my truck more for outside road noise, oversized tires and aftermarket muffler.
It helped quite a bit for that.


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## I800C0LLECT

No idea about the logic 7 unless you accidentally confused your RCA, wiring, or output assignments when setting up the ms-8 software. 

As far as I know, that hasn't happened at all to anybody

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## 1lowlife

fourthmeal said:


> Also never "ask" (set in settings) the MS-8 to do something your speakers can't do. Don't use unrealistic crossover points, for instance. You have to keep things working within their optimal ranges. Go with conservative crossover points when in doubt.


I'm using default settings to calibrate.
If I could get that to sound decent, I'd start tweaking.
But I can't even get a good base sound yet.


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## I800C0LLECT

1lowlife said:


> I agree.
> My doors are so heavy they slam when people shut them.
> 
> I deadened my truck more for outside road noise, oversized tires and aftermarket muffler.
> It helped quite a bit for that.


Yeah my doors were heavy and everybody slammed them on accident. I hated that. I did like the quiet ride AND it actually helped to insulate the vehicle better so it started cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## I800C0LLECT

1lowlife said:


> I'm using default settings to calibrate.
> If I could get that to sound decent, I'd start tweaking.
> But I can't even get a good base sound yet.



My initial tunes were terrible until I started messing with gains to get speaker output fairly close to each other. After that, it's been a cinch.

Edit: I think using the internal amp alongside my external amps is what caused the issues. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## 1lowlife

I800C0LLECT said:


> No idea about the logic 7 unless you accidentally confused your RCA, wiring, or output assignments when setting up the ms-8 software.
> 
> As far as I know, that hasn't happened at all to anybody
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


That is the odd part, I haven't switched any wiring.
In the part of the calibration where you test which channel is which, that checks out.
Front left/right is correct, rear left/right, center, sub, etc.

But I'm getting that L7 in the front now and none in the rear.
It was the other way around.

That is why I need a way to completely reset the unit. 

I'm off next week and I'm going to probably take everything apart and reinstall it just to make sure that isn't my issue.
Being the unit never has sounded that good.
But it did click in my head last week that the sweeps sound bright and clear.
So maybe my input is the problem.
Going to try the AUX this weekend.

It is possible I got 2 bad units in a row 18 months ago.
The first one only output 3 channels.


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## josby

1lowlife said:


> That is why I need a way to completely reset the unit.


Have you done both the factory reset in the menuing system and the microprocessor reset button on the back of the display?


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## FordEscape

1lowlife said:


> ...On resetting the unit;
> Is there any difference in using the reset switch on the unit or resetting to default using the display?
> I need a clean and total reset....


For that objective use "System Settings>Restore factory defaults" on the remote display. 

Definitely should do that after every few re-calibration runs, it doesn't hurt to do it as the first-step of every re-calibration, to ensure that the settings memory isn't confused with old artifacts.

The reset button on the main unit is a 'soft-reboot' and does not purge/restore all factory defaults in memory.

That per some old Andy counsel buried somewhere in this thread.


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## Golfntob

Lowlife, I don't think I would spend an enormous about of time hunting down polarity on the input side. 
From Andy's postings I find this, " MS-8 checks the polarity of the inputs and corrects them. It doesn't do that on the outputs because 

checking the polarity of tweeters is a crapshoot. MS-8 relies on you to correctly connect the speakers."
I think most important is channel assignment, correct polarity from ms8 to amp and amp to speakers.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Lanson

tommymilan311 said:


> I'm not sure what the chart has to do with how a amplifier is working. It says, in simplified terms, that 2000 watts doesn't necessarily sound 4X louder than 500 watts, and not to clip your sound waves. Not that if you adjust your amp input voltage(RCAs) from 2.8v to .7v without adjusting gain that your amp output wattage(to subs) wont drop 75%.
> 
> IG a better example would be simply turning your volume down from your HU. If you measure the voltage on your RCAs the voltage drops as your volume does.
> 
> .... I think we are talking about two completely different things.
> 
> Edit:
> Or reading more maybe it does. I'm trying to understand what they mean by "voltage" if its the voltage measured to the speaker?
> 
> FOUND THE DISCONNECT (I think)
> 
> Change everytime i said "output wattage" when speaking about the power the subs or speakers get, and change it with the voltage measured. I think that is where the chart plays in as well and what its means with "voltage" vs "Power" or watts.


It is always helpful to remember that power (watts) relationship is not linear. If I have a 1000W amp and a 2000W amp, then I'm only going to have 3dB more headroom before clipping. Useful, but not exactly as impressive as it sounds when we say it out loud. So when we set our gains, same thing. A tweak from 2.0V to 2.8V is minimal. I believe this is why Andy has repeatedly said, it does not have to be precise, and getting it close enough is good enough. He's usually advised 2V as a point of reference, probably because it is easy to get.

I continually will come back to this advice, learned from installing and using the Ms-8 in many builds so far (and I hope for more if I can find more of them over time): set all speakers roughly the same during the pink noise test, and run the volume low enough that distortion does not get picked up by the mics. Speaking-level volume is sufficient. Get them all within a dB or so, let the calibration process do its thing, and then adjust gains / EQ to suit while measuring for results with a mic and measuring software (not required, but extremely helpful.) If something doesn't measure right, like you have a huge dip or something, consider EQ, then phase, then crossover changes (and recal.) Solve the big problems and then the little ones if you have the ability, and enjoy. 

Remember always, we don't listen to watts, we listen to music. And music is extremely dynamic so measuring its output will show very little to you in actual listening. Just have enough headroom in the MS-8 so you don't run into digital distortion, and it should work out great.


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## litrekid

Guess it's my turn. I just installed the ms8 in my 15 challenger with HK premium sound group. I have a dynaudio 2 way front, 102 tweets run with a zapco ag150 and 6.5 in the doors run with a zapco ag350. I'm using the factory center for now running on the ms8 power. For the sub I have a idmax12 in IB powered by a mosconi300x2 bridged. I have used about all possible configurations for the input and have left it with both fronts, center, one door 6x9 which is all low frequencies and one sub input. I have the front sounding pretty good. Center is a 3" with a small tweeter crossed at 450. The tweeters at 2200 and the 6.5 at 80. 

The problem I have run into is there is no sub unless I boost it a lot in the EQ. If I just turn up the gain the sub will start moving but with no bass. The other issue I have run into is the volume calibrates the input at 33 or 32 Everytime no matter what input configuration but no matter what I can't go over volume 23 without the sub popping or it starts causing strange issues with the front. 

Otherwise it sounds great if I boot bass and keep the ms8 volume at -10 to -5 and head unit vol at 22. Any ideas?

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## litrekid

Oh and I have calibrated with the ms8 volume at -20 to -50. I make sure that the sub is very quiet during calibrations. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## Lanson

litrekid, not sure what's up but do you have a measurement mic and some software like REW to see what's going on? My gut says there's some phase issues. Also, during calibration did you make sure that the sub output roughly equaled (in dB) the fronts and center, during the pink noise portion?

edit: One thought I'm having is, what if one of your speakers is not playing the frequencies you've told the MS-8 it can? Example, the MS-8 is shooting for a target curve, and will use all its processing to get close to it. So what if your sub, for instance, has a hole in its response due to cancellation or something? 

To find out, I think I would run the sub through a frequency sweep without the MS-8 engaged, just run direct. And then same with the mids. Maybe there's a hole somewhere, which the MS-8 can't fill.


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## litrekid

fourthmeal said:


> litrekid, not sure what's up but do you have a measurement mic and some software like REW to see what's going on? My gut says there's some phase issues. Also, during calibration did you make sure that the sub output roughly equaled (in dB) the fronts and center, during the pink noise portion?
> 
> edit: One thought I'm having is, what if one of your speakers is not playing the frequencies you've told the MS-8 it can? Example, the MS-8 is shooting for a target curve, and will use all its processing to get close to it. So what if your sub, for instance, has a hole in its response due to cancellation or something?
> 
> To find out, I think I would run the sub through a frequency sweep without the MS-8 engaged, just run direct. And then same with the mids. Maybe there's a hole somewhere, which the MS-8 can't fill.


I do have the little Dayton mic but no REW. I used it to match all the speakers roughly but ended up setting the sub as low as I could for the sweeps since everything I read said to have the sub low. I will have to try your suggestion tomorrow and see if I find anything. Could it have anything to do with not having any rears running?

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## litrekid

Well definitely something wrong. I used this site http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_subwooferharmonicdistortion.php to run some test tones and for whatever reason my left 6.5 will play up to the 160hz but the right barely has any output from 160 - 100. At 100 they r both a little quiet and down from there the right will play and the left won't. I tried resetting to factory and re set up and even level matched everything and calibrated again at -45 and everything is the same. I did switch amps and RCA cables to rule those out as well. Seems to be coming from the ms8 with or without processing active

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## josby

^^ If you have the problem even with processing off, maybe the issue is on the input side. That is, maybe the MS-8's un-eq of your headunit isn't building a flat signal like it should. That stays in place even with processing off. Do you have a way you can play your test tones through the MS-8's aux input instead to eliminate the input side as a potential problem?


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## litrekid

I'll give it a shot josby. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll probably try rearranging the inputs as well

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## Lanson

Yeah when testing, use a DIRECT connection from the amp, bypassing the MS-8. Remember to sweep each speaker individually, and of course with tweeters start the sweep at a safe frequency.

REW is free so if you have the mic and the calibration file, you're on your way. REW is my go-to, but others are out there. We just need a semi-accurate response output of what each speaker is capable of without any processing whatsoever.


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## litrekid

I can get a direct connection through the ms8 on the hidden menu right? I am using the factory radio and not sure how else I would bypass the ms8. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## Lanson

litrekid said:


> I can get a direct connection through the ms8 on the hidden menu right? I am using the factory radio and not sure how else I would bypass the ms8.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


Well, two parts to this. For doing other things, yes, you want to use the hidden menu feature. However to just test the speakers and speakers alone, you would connect direct from the amp itself, skipping the MS-8. 

To illustrate, you could get a 1/8" phono connector from your laptop to RCA, and patch those right to your amp channels you want to run. Then run your sweeps and measure what you get. Now you have an "untainted" version of what's going on. Then, you can reconnect everything to the MS-8, and run from the aux input connection of the MS-8 with your sweeps.

I also have run sweeps through the factory sound system, just by using the 1/8" aux IN that is on my dash panel. That's a nice way to do it if you have that ability, once you've made sure that everything else is working as it should be. 

Remember, you're doing things to make sure its not the MS-8. Because it won't be pretty if it is!


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## litrekid

OK so I plugged my phone into the amp and with another phone I plugged in my mic and ran some sweeps from 50 - 200hz and all seems good there. All the frequencies play and at the same level. When I play them through the ms8 they both play all the frequencies but the right side is much lower. What could cause the ms8 to play that side lower? Is it just a calibration issue?

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## I800C0LLECT

Wearing the mic backwards? My right is usually louder

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## 1lowlife

I gave the MS-8 one more shot last Friday.
A waste of 4 hours.

I did do a reset (the button on the unit) and got the L7 (surround) back to the rear speakers.
Did a couple calibrations and actually spent some time with an RTA and the equalizer.
I know little to nothing about RTAs but I read that I should start out with a fairly flat line and go from there.

To get a flat line my MS-8 equalizer looked like this.



To get this, I was using an external mic on my iPhone.



Again, I really didn't know what I was doing.
Perhaps changing the crossover points would have made a difference, but I have no knowledge of that stuff.
Got it sounding better than it ever has.
Did one more calibration and it put the L7 back up front again.
So fu(k it, I've invested way too much time into this thing.

Ordered a Kenwood DDX9903S.
Pulled the MS-8 and extra amp.
Rewired the rear doors to run off the HU.
Going to run the front door Focal 165FX components bi amped off the Alpine PDX V9.
Ran RCAs from the amp to the HU area.

I'm glad you guys had better luck than I did with the MS-8.
It never got anywhere near the results some of you claim to get.
Maybe it is the crappy Toyota Entune HU, maybe I need better results that what you are getting, maybe I ended up with 2 faulty NIB MS-8 units.

I may or may not sell the MS-8.
I have a hard time selling something, in good conscience, if I don't know if it works properly.

Either way, I won't be cluttering up your thread anymore.

I do thank all that tried to help me.
But I either have ANOTHER defective unit, or the MS-8 just isn't the answer for me and stock HU.

Be safe and God Bless..

1lowlife.


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## Lanson

You know, if you hooked the MS-8 up to that nicer head unit, you might be able to get the best of both worlds assuming it is working as it should be. I would definitely consider it.


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## KillerBox

Have you tried bypassing your headunit and run the MS-8 thru the auxiliary input an iPod to see if you get a full signal from 20hz to 20kHz?


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## Lanson

litrekid said:


> OK so I plugged my phone into the amp and with another phone I plugged in my mic and ran some sweeps from 50 - 200hz and all seems good there. All the frequencies play and at the same level. When I play them through the ms8 they both play all the frequencies but the right side is much lower. What could cause the ms8 to play that side lower? Is it just a calibration issue?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


Could be a calibration issue, also do you have balance set perfectly even? 

Dumb question, did you make sure the mic headphones were on correctly, as in left to left and right to right? Not sure if it makes a difference, but would be interesting if it did.

So now that you know the speakers sweep well, you can eliminate. But what I would do is MEASURE these sweeps so you can find the natural crossover point for the MS-8. Example, as you are doing the sweeps and looking at the response plot, you can see with distortion (using REW, remember its free). That would help determine a good crossover point.


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## FordEscape

fourthmeal said:


> ...Dumb question, did you make sure the mic headphones were on correctly, as in left to left and right to right? Not sure if it makes a difference, but would be interesting if it did.....


Yeah, it *definitely* makes a difference - ya gotta have the mics on the correct sides of yer head for the acoustic calibration to work as intended.

DAMHIK - suffice to say BTDT and the effect was startlingly bad results in terms of both L>R levels and TA/blown staging. :blush: - rectified immediately upon recalibration with my head(phones) straight :laugh:


----------



## litrekid

fourthmeal said:


> Could be a calibration issue, also do you have balance set perfectly even?
> 
> Dumb question, did you make sure the mic headphones were on correctly, as in left to left and right to right? Not sure if it makes a difference, but would be interesting if it did.
> 
> So now that you know the speakers sweep well, you can eliminate. But what I would do is MEASURE these sweeps so you can find the natural crossover point for the MS-8. Example, as you are doing the sweeps and looking at the response plot, you can see with distortion (using REW, remember its free). That would help determine a good crossover point.


Balance on the head unit is set even and to the front. I also matched the speakers in DB within + or -2. The mics were on correctly. I always check. I won't be insulted by any questions so keep them coming no matter what. 

I have the audiotool app and have been learning how to use that as that's the best I can do unfortunately as I don't have a laptop to work on. Anyone use that and have any suggestions? I'm going to try and grab some sweeps and post them and see if anyone can help me make sense of them. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## Golfntob

litrekid said:


> Balance on the head unit is set even and to the front. I also matched the speakers in DB within + or -2. The mics were on correctly. I always check. I won't be insulted by any questions so keep them coming no matter what.
> 
> I have the audiotool app and have been learning how to use that as that's the best I can do unfortunately as I don't have a laptop to work on. Anyone use that and have any suggestions? I'm going to try and grab some sweeps and post them and see if anyone can help me make sense of them.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


Do you like the audiotools app? I have been looking for something to use on Android without much success, want sure if it was with the $8. I don't have a laptop either. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## josby

Golfntob said:


> I have been looking for something to use on Android without much success


FYI, I wouldn't recommend bothering trying to RTA with Android, because the hardware varies too much for them to be accurate.

That is, phone mics roll off low frequencies to filter out wind noise. Since there are only a handful of different iPhone models, app makers can adjust their measurements to compensate for whichever iPhone model it's running on. But since there are hundreds of models of Android phones, that's not really possible. 

A few years ago the NIOSH tested a bunch of mobile apps for different platforms and found [for Android] "the limited testing showed a wide variance between the same app measurements on different devices. This can likely be attributed to the fact that Android devices are built by several different manufacturers and that there is a lack of conformity for using similar microphones and other audio components in their devices."

EDIT: just saw your reply - lol, duh, sorry, I never considered you'd be using an external mic! Sorry I can't recommend an app.


----------



## Golfntob

Well I wouldn't use the mic but into the phone. I have a Dayton imm6 calibrated mic I would use for sweeps, once I find a decent app to use.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## litrekid

Golfntob said:


> Do you like the audiotools app? I have been looking for something to use on Android without much success, want sure if it was with the $8. I don't have a laptop either.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


It's the best I have found researching based on other input. It's expensive for an app but does receive regular updates. Something else to check out is Google rewards. It's a Google surveying app that pays u for answering questions. Most r 3 or 4 and will pay up to a dollar. That pays for most the apps I buy. I have earned a couple hundred dollars over the last year or so. It's not a bad gig. I'm still learning how to use audiotool so I really can't say how good it is but it's better then nothing I suppose

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## litrekid

josby said:


> FYI, I wouldn't recommend bothering trying to RTA with Android, because the hardware varies too much for them to be accurate.
> 
> That is, phone mics roll off low frequencies to filter out wind noise. Since there are only a handful of different iPhone models, app makers can adjust their measurements to compensate for whichever iPhone model it's running on. But since there are hundreds of models of Android phones, that's not really possible.
> 
> A few years ago the NIOSH tested a bunch of mobile apps for different platforms and found [for Android] "the limited testing showed a wide variance between the same app measurements on different devices. This can likely be attributed to the fact that Android devices are built by several different manufacturers and that there is a lack of conformity for using similar microphones and other audio components in their devices."
> 
> EDIT: just saw your reply - lol, duh, sorry, I never considered you'd be using an external mic! Sorry I can't recommend an app.


Still good information though. Thanks

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## I800C0LLECT

Just thought I'd throw this out there. I purchased a 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee and it came with upgraded radio plus subwoofer. The moment I heard it..."hey! This is familiar!"

Turns out it's put together by Harman Kardon. It has a surround sound button. When I faded to front to attenuate the rears, staging was great for OEM.

I believe it's some kind of OEM version of ms-8. The bass is upfront and it has a center channel. It's not quite as clean sounding as my install but it's good enough that I would leave it be. Matter of fact, it's what I imagine the ms8 would sound like if I had a center channel and set it for both seats.

So anybody wondering what it could sound like, test drive a Grand Cherokee limited or higher. Funny though, the wife complains about the bass in my Ride but not her Jeep and mine is clearly lower in volume.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## litrekid

Yeah my challenger has the HK 18 speaker system. I swore I was going to leave it alone ? because it does sound great for a stock system. It's definitely a sickness ? but I like it!

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## I800C0LLECT

18?! My Jeep definitely doesn't have that. It's basically a component set up front with coax center (I assume) and the rears project from the rear like surround satellites would in home theater. I assume they're a 3" coax. Hmm. I think the rear doors have speakers too

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## litrekid

It sounds better then it really is. They get 18 from 7 of those 3" coax, 2 6x9 and 2 10" subs. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## 1lowlife

fourthmeal said:


> You know, if you hooked the MS-8 up to that nicer head unit, you might be able to get the best of both worlds assuming it is working as it should be. I would definitely consider it.


If I had a nicer HU I wouldn't need the MS-8.
SO I'm buying a nicer HU and ditching the MS-8.

The ONLY reason I bought the MS-8 was to retain the stock HU.

Who knows, I might get bored one day and try it out.
I'll already have RCAs from the HU and the front and sub run off the amp.
MS-8 power and rear speaker wires are pretty easy to get to under the passenger's seat.
It wouldn't take 45 minutes to hook it up just to see what happens.




KillerBox said:


> Have you tried bypassing your headunit and run the MS-8 thru the auxiliary input an iPod to see if you get a full signal from 20hz to 20kHz?


Yes, sounded the same.

I'm starting to think my MS-8 is bad.
Calibration after calibration would sound different in the same sitting without changing anything.
The L7 in the front speakers was the last straw.
Although resetting using the button on the unit, did bring it back to the rear.
Another calibration brought it back to the front without changing any settings.

In 18 months I never heard my $1000 sub sound like a $1000 sub.
It was too high, too low, too muddy, too muffled, never did thump.
Then there were times certain sub frequencies would jump out loud on certain songs.
It was really odd.

I'm installing the Kenwood tomorrow.
It has it's own crossovers and TA.
Might not be as good as the TA you guys are getting with your working MS-8s, but it will do me just fine.


I'm now trying to figure out what to do with the MS-8.
I can't sell it not knowing if it works correctly.
I might just part it out on ebay.
I have new unused input & output wiring harnesses.
The display, although it has a few scratches from being kept in the console.
Calibration headphones.
Remote control.

Or sell it all with a 10 day refund.

I don't know..


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## Lanson

The MS-8 (when working properly!) works GREAT with an aftermarket head unit if you want center/surround abilities. With the LOGIC7 features turned off, it still works as a capable standard processor, but of course there's LOTS of good/great/excellent processors for stereo control.

I also usually use the MS-8 with stock HU's but I've run it with aftermarket HU's a couple times as well, and it is fantastic. 

The head unit you have will be great for T/A, but will lack in the EQ dept. And that's OK, not many are better than the FIR capabilities of the MS-8. I wish there was a "Pro" mode for it, but w/e.

Yes if it isn't working right, you could have some issues. A bench test (with the aftermarket HU) might help, if you haven't tried it yet.




1lowlife said:


> If I had a nicer HU I wouldn't need the MS-8.
> SO I'm buying a nicer HU and ditching the MS-8.
> 
> The ONLY reason I bought the MS-8 was to retain the stock HU.
> 
> Who knows, I might get bored one day and try it out.
> I'll already have RCAs from the HU and the front and sub run off the amp.
> MS-8 power and rear speaker wires are pretty easy to get to under the passenger's seat.
> It wouldn't take 45 minutes to hook it up just to see what happens.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, sounded the same.
> 
> I'm starting to think my MS-8 is bad.
> Calibration after calibration would sound different in the same sitting without changing anything.
> The L7 in the front speakers was the last straw.
> Although resetting using the button on the unit, did bring it back to the rear.
> Another calibration brought it back to the front without changing any settings.
> 
> In 18 months I never heard my $1000 sub sound like a $1000 sub.
> It was too high, too low, too muddy, too muffled, never did thump.
> Then there were times certain sub frequencies would jump out loud on certain songs.
> It was really odd.
> 
> I'm installing the Kenwood tomorrow.
> It has it's own crossovers and TA.
> Might not be as good as the TA you guys are getting with your working MS-8s, but it will do me just fine.
> 
> 
> I'm now trying to figure out what to do with the MS-8.
> I can't sell it not knowing if it works correctly.
> I might just part it out on ebay.
> I have new unused input & output wiring harnesses.
> The display, although it has a few scratches from being kept in the console.
> Calibration headphones.
> Remote control.
> 
> Or sell it all with a 10 day refund.
> 
> I don't know..


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## I800C0LLECT

It's very difficult for most of us to recreate what ms-8 does in just a few moments. 

The problem is making certain, that your install doesn't throw it off. If you aren't meticulous and aren't sure it'll end up floating down a river

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## litrekid

I got a little done tonight. Hooked up the rears, 2 3" coax Harmon kardon speakers. So now. Have ch 1 and 2 running Dyn 102's. 3 and 4 the 6.5's and 5 on the center, 6 and 7 on the rears and 8 on the sub. Here is what it looked like after doing some adjustments. I realize this was just one tune but just wanted to get my feet wet as I have never done tuning like this. 









Here is what I [email protected] to do tho get there.









Still no bass at all. Maybe I donate it hooked up door there is something I don't understand about the amp. Not sure. What does anyone think of that white noise sweep?

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## I800C0LLECT

Then turn up your bass. This is the Harman target curve...










It's been proven many times over that people prefer the bass to be up. Nobody likes flat. Nobody tunes for flat ;P blah


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## litrekid

I800C0LLECT said:


> Then turn up your bass. This is the Harman target curve...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's been proven many times over that people prefer the bass to be up. Nobody likes flat. Nobody tunes for flat ;P blah


I do boost it but throughout this thread I heard people complained about too much bass, I tune mine and it doesn't even sound like it's on. I have to boost it in the EQ and the bass slider. Just didn't think it was normal to have to boost it so much. Sounds great otherwise. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## WilliamS

looks to me you need to redo the starting part of the calibration setting the level for the subwoofers. just went through that mess. You need to get the output matched across the board before you run the auto tune.


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## litrekid

I have level matched everything before running Auto tune, makes no difference. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## WilliamS

I had that exact problem when I had the subs too low compared to the rest before I ran the auto tune. Gave them a little more power then re-ran the auto tune and it leveled out.


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## litrekid

I'll give it a try later. I'll admit I'm paranoid of having the sub too loud for the sweeps. It's probably the number 1 thing I got out of this thread. Just need to keep experimenting and see what works. I appreciate everyone's recommendations though. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## I800C0LLECT

I can barely hear mine in sweeps and agree it isn't that aggressive so I turn up the knob, adjust my mid bass with it and I'm happy. I'll be trying that kaigoss trick too so I can get back 2 channels and try logic 7

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Lanson

Exactly, you're damn close.

You can just feed them more gain (now, no need to recalibrate right now), and chill on the EQ. but the rest of that looks great. Notice the JBL house curve on the top end, how it rolls off on the highest. I'd leave that alone, don't boost it. The MS-8 is smart for a digital device but at the highest frequencies, I'd let it roll off. It won't be audible (IMO.)

What crossovers did you pick? Don't be afraid to fool with slope. You are CLOSE!

edit: Also, are you measuring both sides at once, or are you balancing to the left (or right) for this? An all-at-once measurement is not advised, it won't really tell you much.


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## Golfntob

Fourthmeal, what adjustments can be made after measuring left and then right? With only the ability to change the whole thing with EQ? Have had my MS-8 a while but new to the measuring and adjusting thing. Always did it by ear in the past.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## litrekid

That was all at once. So I should do what I did above but fade it to each side, watch the scale and adjust independently? I'm a little confused. When I adjust the EQ on the ms8 it is booting or cutting frequencies to all speakers right? Is there a way to EQ each speaker?

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## Lanson

litrekid said:


> That was all at once. So I should do what I did above but fade it to each side, watch the scale and adjust independently? I'm a little confused. When I adjust the EQ on the ms8 it is booting or cutting frequencies to all speakers right? Is there a way to EQ each speaker?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


This is the inherently limitation of the MS-8. It EQ's itself (with the 8 FIR BiQuad filters it has per channel) to the house curve best it can, speaker by speaker, and then the EQ you adjust is more of a "seasoning", applied to all drivers. That said, there's something amiss here because usually the MS-8 is not lacking in bass at all. 

Are there two subs? Are they perhaps not in phase? Is the left not in phase with the right (acoustically)? That will be interesting to learn as you are working on this. If you have access to a laptop, I encourage you to use it with REW to get highly accurate measurements, rather than the general SPL outputs you're getting with your phone. Example:

This is my MS-8 output on REW, just raw, but this is an AVERAGED measurement from several sweeps, keep in mind that doing multiple sweeps from multiple mic positions (around your head) is really important to measure the average properly (unless measuring subs or something low frequency.)









And long story short, here's after some phase work, and some careful EQ tuning/sweeping










But there were many measurements and tweaks made to get there, so this is just the "before-after" type example here.

Adjusting gains AFTER calibration is 100% OK to do, within reason. So if you need to do that to get where you want to be without boosting the MS-8 a ton, then that's alright.

edit: It looks like this before using averaging and level-matching with the EQ target









Ideally, you work with one side, work with another, and average them. Once all that is done, take a listen with the balance and fader set like you expect in the car, and then tweak final EQ by ear. There's usually just a little that needs changed, mostly to how the center interacts with the fronts, I've found. But it can be VERY good if you set everything up carefully.


Back to it, what are the crossover points?


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## FordEscape

I800C0LLECT said:


> ...I'll be trying that kaigoss trick too so I can get back 2 channels and try logic 7...


Just FYI noting you too have MS amps .... I've run 'kaigoss method' with a similar setup as follows:

1. MS8 FL LP filter set at 20Hz, MS8 FL HP filter appropriate for your mid>hi drivers XO

2. MS8 FL L&R out to MS-5001 inputs; MS-5001 pass-through outputs to the respective (front midbass) inputs on the MS-1004 powering those.

3. Set the MS-5001 Input Mixer to "1,2" to 'merge L&R inputs to mono' for the sub

4. Set the sub HP filter on the MS-5001 (LP off, that's handled by the MS8)

5. Set the midbass LP filter on the MS-1004 to match your sub HP set on the 5001 (HP off, that's handled by the MS8)

6. ***Used the MS amp output levels to set all speakers at good even match prior to MS8 calibration run

7. Calibrate then tweak output levels on the amps if/as desired.


***As an option, you can set the sub output level to "0" on the MS-5001 and let the MS-8 calibrate only based on the midbass output, then bring-back the sub with totally manual-by-ear setting of the amp output ..... a little experimentation can help find your best '(auto)tune'.

>>>

The arrangement worked very nice for me, I love how well the MS amps 'play' with the MS8 to support 'cheating' an extra output like this - the filtering/output level setting controls they offer just beg for this sort of application. 

If you've got the MS-WBC bass control knob you can set that up with the sub and midbass MS amps to get the exact same sub shelf-filtering boost/attenuate as the MS8 offers when using its designated sub channel output.

Have fun !

PS - I've had good results with a similar MS8+MS amps 'channel-gaining cheat' combining closely co-located mid/tweeters with the upper-two drivers of 3-way front setup on a single MS8 output - close colocation being the key in that situation for TA reasons (colocation not critical for the subwoofer 'cheat' for reasons Andy and others have stated). That allowed me to support 3-way active front, rear/side, sub _AND_ sneak in a center _too_, all on the MS8's eight output channels ;-) Yeah, that does require multiple MS-1004's.


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## litrekid

Just one idmax12d2v3 with a mosconi 300.2 bridged. No laptop I'm afraid. Just the imm6 mic and the app. I think I read through your build on the Durango forum if I'm not mistaking. Great write-up. 

As for crossovers I have the sub at 75, the mid to the at 2200, center is at 400 and rears at 250. Not really sure where to put the center and rears, they r stock 3" coax speakers. Crossing the center at 400 seemed to help with the mid bass. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## litrekid

Also worth noting that the center and rears r run off the ms8 amplifier. So I end up matching everything to them level wise as they aren't adjustable. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## Lanson

litrekid said:


> Just one idmax12d2v3 with a mosconi 300.2 bridged. No laptop I'm afraid. Just the imm6 mic and the app. I think I read through your build on the Durango forum if I'm not mistaking. Great write-up.
> 
> As for crossovers I have the sub at 75, the mid to the at 2200, center is at 400 and rears at 250. Not really sure where to put the center and rears, they r stock 3" coax speakers. Crossing the center at 400 seemed to help with the mid bass.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


So one important thing to do is to sweep a speaker individually, and make sure it can handle the crossover points chosen. Sweeping the sub (raw, no EQ, just straight from the RCA of the amp), the front woofer, tweeter (with a limited frequency sweep of course!), center (if applicable) is always smart, because you can tell a lot with it. And if you measure distortion this way in the sweep, you can use a crossover point that keeps distortion down. You may find your sub wants to cross at 80 or 85 or even 90 this way, but you wont' know until you sweep the speaker on its own full-range to learn what it can do. 

If you don't have REW, you probably won't be able to get this detailed, but you could generate tones at regular intervals like 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, etc. and look at SPL, and make your own little chart. When you start hearing that speaker roll off, maybe consider that point as your crossover point, even if that is not really a low point at all. In one build I used the MS-8 at 85hz, still sounded great.

The rest of your crossover points sound reasonable. I like using 300-350 or so with a good center channel that's 3.5". Going 400hz with a stock center is a good start. 

Yeah I'm Lanson, I haven't yet changed my name on here, "fourthmeal" is just an old trusty alias due to late nights in the past.


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## Lanson

litrekid said:


> Also worth noting that the center and rears r run off the ms8 amplifier. So I end up matching everything to them level wise as they aren't adjustable.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


What was the master volume number at when you did the sweeps, given this?


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## litrekid

The calibration sweeps? I had the ms8 at -45 for calibration. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## litrekid

I just try and make sure I don't feel the sub during calibrations

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## Lanson

litrekid said:


> The calibration sweeps? I had the ms8 at -45 for calibration.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


I think the lowest I've ever tuned with is -35. I'd have to go back to my days of running something off MS-8 power to be sure, but I know that you want a VERY quiet environment, and the volume of the speakers should be speaking level or just above, so that's in the 70's or low 80's if someone is being loud. 

I feel like mostly the pressure to run lower SPL is to prevent resonance distortion from panels and such. The MS-8 wouldn't be able to compensate for that.


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## litrekid

I'll try it a bit higher but will probably have to turn the sub gain down as not to "feel" it. I'll try it both ways and see how it effects the tune. 

I know I have already said it but really appreciate everyone's advice. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## litrekid

Also if I'm not mistaking after a factory reset the master volume defaults to -20. Running the factory speakers off the ms8 will give me a DB level of about 90 at that volume. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## Lanson

Since the rest of your setup is really in-line with the expected response, I think I would just do a sub-only amp RCA sweep and or pink noise run, and see if the sub really puts out the full range from infrasonic filter point to crossover point, like you are "asking" of the MS-8.

Also, were you using pink noise or white noise (or something else, a tone sweep?) during your microphone measurements?

edit: Yes, -20dB is default. But that's just a safe starting point for the device, IMO.

IMO, you really are close to nipping this.


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## litrekid

I was using pink noise using a generator within the audiotool app. I can play test tones but I haven't on the sub alone. It's strange to me how after calibration I turn the hu volume up till I see the sub moving and there is barely any bass at all and one more click up will make it bottom out so to speak. Seems to over travel. I immediately turn it down but I don't see how it can move so much and not play any bass. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## Lanson

litrekid said:


> I was using pink noise using a generator within the audiotool app. I can play test tones but I haven't on the sub alone. It's strange to me how after calibration I turn the hu volume up till I see the sub moving and there is barely any bass at all and one more click up will make it bottom out so to speak. Seems to over travel. I immediately turn it down but I don't see how it can move so much and not play any bass.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


The only way I know a speaker can move and not make much sound is cancellation of some sort. If the cancellation occurs at or near crossover frequency, always consider polarity swap in either sub, or front mids. If cancellation occurs at most frequencies, make sure the enclosure is air-tight sealed. If you have a test enclosure (just a cheap sub in a cheap, sealed box), you can plug that it in and make sure its not just a fluke in the build, like a leak where you didn't expect one. 

When the sub over-travels suddenly, this makes me wonder if you're clipping at that point, or if the sub has no acoustic suspension. 

What enclosure is the sub in?

edit: Consider when you are boosting EQ at the level you are, extreme power may be required to keep from clipping. Imagine, every 3dB up is double the power, so you could be clipping something. What happens when you bring the gain of the sub amp up? Still bottom out?


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## litrekid

It's in a IB setup or trunk baffle. I may have to seal it up better. There r no large gaps anywhere but I couldn't say it's air tight. I can turn the gain up and it helps some but I have to really boost it to get the sub to even be what I consider loud. I think I may need to raise the low frequency crossover. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## josby

^^^ FYI, from Andy on trunk sealing for infinite baffle:



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Don't go crazy and fill the side panels of the car with a bunch of foam or build your trunk into a box. Air MUST flow from the cabin through the trunk to rid the car of exhaust fumes and there's little sonic benefit to all that work. I do suggest mounting the woofers so that there is a direct path from the cone of the speaker to your ear.


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## Lanson

I understand better now.

OK, so run your sweeps just straight from the amp, no processor or anything, sweep or test tone generate and write down SPL, and bring the gains up quite a bit to see if you get the SPL you were hoping for. If so, then let's just use gain. If not, consider that you may want to seal it up more, or enclose the sub from the back, or something different. Ignore the MS-8 for a bit here, and just make sure that you have equipment that can meet the requirement. And if it does sweep well/measure well, then consider that you can adjust the infrasonic filter, crossover points, etc., and you can fiddle with phase, as well as crossover slope too, as needed. 

But we need to first confirm that your setup is capable of full-range response. If you find the sub loses output down low due to cancellation or something, you could up the infrasonic filter to make the MS-8 ignore that, assuming it sounds good otherwise.



litrekid said:


> It's in a IB setup or trunk baffle. I may have to seal it up better. There r no large gaps anywhere but I couldn't say it's air tight. I can turn the gain up and it helps some but I have to really boost it to get the sub to even be what I consider loud. I think I may need to raise the low frequency crossover.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


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## josby

I'm doing a new MS-8 build and as part of that I finally went through and read (most) of the 12,000 posts here over the past few weeks. One question I had that I never saw a clear answer to was: what's the difference between the sub control and the bass control?

So, I hooked up REW to the AUX input and checked it, and thought I'd share for anyone else who's curious. Here's the sub control at +10 and +20 versus the bass control at +10 and +20, as well as both of them at +10 and +20 simultaneously:










While I was at it, I checked the mid and treble controls too, just to see what frequency range they effect:



















Note that that little curve from 20-40 Hz is due to the 20Hz subsonic filter.


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## Lanson

Its amazing that both items boosted didn't clip the MS-8's output!


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## josby

Yeah, I think because I had the processing off, so none of the digital headroom was being used by filters from the acoustic tuning. I wish I'd thought to crank the EQ all the way up at the low end, too, to see if/where it would start to clip.

I was kind of surprised to see the signal start increasing at 300 Hz from the sub control. I know I've read where Andy says it doesn't affect above 160 Hz. Granted, it does very little - looks like the increase is less than 1 dB above 160 even when the sub control is maxed.


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## Lanson

The bass shelf idea is a powerful thing. It also works with the fronts at the same time, so you have to be careful with it.


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## litrekid

Well got a little time to try doing the sweeps you suggested fourthmeal. It definitely will play loud. The first graphic is full res with averaging on playing a sweep frequency from 20-100. The second one is a shot when the graph starts reading about 31hz. The level down low is about 10 DB less.















What I get from this is it will play loud but for some reason the ms8 won't allow it to without me boosting it. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## Lycancatt

this is probably the dumbest question in this thread but..i'm doing my first work on an ms8 and I'm wondering how much tuning do I have access to from the display/controller thing? I'm guessing a laptop is needed to do most of it..but I simply don't know.


----------



## glockcoma

Lycancatt said:


> this is probably the dumbest question in this thread but..i'm doing my first work on an ms8 and I'm wondering how much tuning do I have access to from the display/controller thing? I'm guessing a laptop is needed to do most of it..but I simply don't know.




31 band eq 
Plus individual treb, mid, bass adjustment


----------



## litrekid

Any tuning that can be done manually is on the screen. U [email protected] a EQ slider and also a bass, mid @nd trebble

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## Lycancatt

so I cant do t/a and crossover from the display? probably mostly what i'll be doing is eq but I don't want to be limited if I don't have to be, thanks guys!


----------



## glockcoma

Lycancatt said:


> so I cant do t/a and crossover from the display? probably mostly what i'll be doing is eq but I don't want to be limited if I don't have to be, thanks guys!




You can set your crossover before calibration but cannot change it without recalibrating.

No manual T/A


----------



## FordEscape

Lycancatt said:


> this is probably the dumbest question in this thread but..i'm doing my first work on an ms8 and I'm wondering how much tuning do I have access to from the display/controller thing? I'm guessing a laptop is needed to do most of it..but I simply don't know.


There is zero actual control of the MS8 via laptop - it has no laptop interface whatsoever. All that can be manipulated on an MS8 is done via the provided display.

The sole purpose of a laptop in conjunction with the MS8 is to use that with a mic and software such as REW to take environmental acoustic measurements to provide info that may help guide in fine-tuning of the MS8 within the limits it allows that. The laptop nor any software on it will never interface directly with the MS8.

Remember, the MS8 is designed primarily as an "autotune" DSP. Using the display you input info about your speakers (numbers, locations [front, rear, sub, etc, _not_ distance measurements], appropriate XO frequency and slope); That's the "Setup" step. MS8 then determines and sets TA and EQ based on its own measurements and algorithms via a "calibration" process using the included microphone/headset and CD ROM 'test tones routine'; that's the autotune "Acoustic Calibration" step. 

Your fine tuning ability/burden is then limited to EQ tweaks using the display with no 'interactive' mic-measurements via the MS8 to guide that - you do it by "ear" or with the assistance of an exernal/independent tool like REW on a laptop.

If that's not for you, then look to Helix or others, it's simple as that. IMHO it sounds like you'd benefit from a read of the MS8 manual, available here MS8 User Manual

Hope that helps, I don't mean to be 'talking down' or anything, just sounded like you needed a basic overview of the tuning situation with the MS8, my apology if wrong.


----------



## q2quest

I'm so frustrated I'm ready to give up. My MS-8 was working beautifully in my Golf. I bought a new car and transferred the MS-8 over to it. It sounds like absolute crap. I've tried everything that I've read about trying, but no matter what I do the sound is tinny. The imaging might be ok, but it lacks mid-bass and vocals sound like they are coming from a crappy full range 4" speaker.


----------



## josby

q2quest said:


> I'm so frustrated I'm ready to give up. My MS-8 was working beautifully in my Golf. I bought a new car and transferred the MS-8 over to it. It sounds like absolute crap. I've tried everything that I've read about trying, but no matter what I do the sound is tinny. The imaging might be ok, but it lacks mid-bass and vocals sound like they are coming from a crappy full range 4" speaker.


I've been fighting the same issue in my new car and have finally gotten past them. Post your new car's setup details


----------



## q2quest

josby said:


> I've been fighting the same issue in my new car and have finally gotten past them. Post your new car's setup details


2017 Golf GTI with Fender Premium sound. High powered speaker wires from factory amp (tweeter, front door and sub) into MS-8 speaker level input channels 1-4 and channel 8 respectively. From MS-8 channels 1 through 4 into a 4 channel amp powering front 6.5" door speakers and separate A-pillar tweeters. Channels 5 and 6 powering full range side speakers. Channels 7 and 8 out to a sub amp summed for one 10" sub.

I have double checked the polarity of all the wiring twice. I have set the low pass x-over at 80Hz, 75, 70, 60 with more mid-bass when choosing 60, but still lackluster vocals. Mid/high x-over at 2500Hz, 3000, 3500, 4000, not much difference. I tried just calibrating for the front speakers only, no sides or sub and it made no difference in the vocal clarity. Thanks to anyone who can help.


----------



## kaigoss69

I would question the input. Can you use the Aux in to bypass the HU?



q2quest said:


> 2017 Golf GTI with Fender Premium sound. High powered speaker wires from factory amp (tweeter, front door and sub) into MS-8 speaker level input channels 1-4 and channel 8 respectively. From MS-8 channels 1 through 4 into a 4 channel amp powering front 6.5" door speakers and separate A-pillar tweeters. Channels 5 and 6 powering full range side speakers. Channels 7 and 8 out to a sub amp summed for one 10" sub.
> 
> I have double checked the polarity of all the wiring twice. I have set the low pass x-over at 80Hz, 75, 70, 60 with more mid-bass when choosing 60, but still lackluster vocals. Mid/high x-over at 2500Hz, 3000, 3500, 4000, not much difference. I tried just calibrating for the front speakers only, no sides or sub and it made no difference in the vocal clarity. Thanks to anyone who can help.


----------



## josby

q2quest said:


> Channels 7 and 8 out to a sub amp summed for one 10" sub.


Is that the MS-8 driving a dual voice coil sub with its amplified outputs? Or MS-8's RCA out to an aftermarket powered sub? What sub is it?

And I second kaigoss's recommendation to listen through the AUX input if possible. In my testing, the MS-8's de-EQ of factory inputs isn't always perfect. Best to eliminate the input un-EQ as a variable and use the AUX input instead to help isolate whether the problem's with the input side or output side.


----------



## Lanson

q2quest said:


> I'm so frustrated I'm ready to give up. My MS-8 was working beautifully in my Golf. I bought a new car and transferred the MS-8 over to it. It sounds like absolute crap. I've tried everything that I've read about trying, but no matter what I do the sound is tinny. The imaging might be ok, but it lacks mid-bass and vocals sound like they are coming from a crappy full range 4" speaker.


I've found this happens when I pick "optimistic" crossover points. 

You can sweep the speakers raw and see how they respond.

Also tinny sound can come from phase issues, where the midbass is "lost" due to acoustic phase.

If the car doesn't have a center, consider running with Logic 7 off.


----------



## Lanson

Well it is great that it will play loud. However, as you can see by your sweeps, the bass output is much lower down low. Idea: How about setting your infrasonic filter at 30hz, set the slope at a relatively shallow 12dB, and then proceed. 

Alternate option, pipe the Sub to the midbass amp and "Kaigoss" it. Meaning, make your midbass and sub operate under one channel, and the MS-8 will read the sum total and work with that. This would be set up like : infrasonic 30hz : sub - none, midbass 80 (or 85ish), so what would happen here is your midbass (tied to your sub) would work as a single output.





litrekid said:


> Well got a little time to try doing the sweeps you suggested fourthmeal. It definitely will play loud. The first graphic is full res with averaging on playing a sweep frequency from 20-100. The second one is a shot when the graph starts reading about 31hz. The level down low is about 10 DB less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I get from this is it will play loud but for some reason the ms8 won't allow it to without me boosting it.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## Lycancatt

thanks for the help guys, I now remember why I once did work on this unit maybe 5 years ago and gave up pretty quickly..but I'm helping someone out who wants to fine tune what they have, and they have an ms8 so i'll do my bestest and not complain too much lol.


----------



## Lanson

Lycancatt said:


> thanks for the help guys, I now remember why I once did work on this unit maybe 5 years ago and gave up pretty quickly..but I'm helping someone out who wants to fine tune what they have, and they have an ms8 so i'll do my bestest and not complain too much lol.


My method generally, if starting from scratch:

Run pre-sweeps of the speakers (pre-ms8) if any speaker's frequency response is in question, so as to not "request" the MS-8 to fill in a hole it can't fill when it comes time to calibrate. By sweeping "raw", we can find where a speaker wants to crossover at, generally. I like doing this with the distortion measurements on, so any distortion caused by a speaker crossed too low can be avoided. A tiny 5hz change in the crossover settings in the MS-8 can have drastic effects to the final tune, so this is why I do it.

Once I know what my speakers can do, I begin a settting up and calibration with the MS-8 (master resets are performed every time I re-cal, just in case), and I take pics with my phone (or use a notepad) to jot details down like crossover points or slope, if they aren't easily remembered. Then I do the calibration with just the drivers seat (for now.) 

If it sounds mostly right but needs that little extra, I balance full left and full forward, and sweep the system in REW with the various mic positions by my head. I then average those (but keep the old ones for distortion and timing measurements) Then I move to the right forward and sweep again, derive a right side average, and the and finally average the two sides because the MS-8 adjusts the 31 band across both.

I take that system average and run it through the EQ visualization with my target curve against it, and if I see a heavy dip or something I'll consider messing with phase on one side or more. If all that looks in good order, I'll make small tweaks to the 31 band MS-8 eq to try and get the response closest to my target curve and then sweep again, and see if the changes I'm making are actually getting close to my target. I may rinse-repeat this process a few times (slightly laborious, but effective), or I might tweak one of the gains on my amps up or down if the band is big and if I need it. Any change I make, I re-sweep and make sure I'm going the right direction.

I've also been known to stop and just wait for another day, if I feel ear fatigue. and ALWAYS wear hearing protection for the sweeps.


----------



## Golfntob

fourthmeal said:


> My method generally, if starting from scratch:
> 
> Run pre-sweeps of the speakers (pre-ms8) if any speaker's frequency response is in question, so as to not "request" the MS-8 to fill in a hole it can't fill when it comes time to calibrate. By sweeping "raw", we can find where a speaker wants to crossover at, generally. I like doing this with the distortion measurements on, so any distortion caused by a speaker crossed too low can be avoided. A tiny 5hz change in the crossover settings in the MS-8 can have drastic effects to the final tune, so this is why I do it.
> 
> Once I know what my speakers can do, I begin a settting up and calibration with the MS-8 (master resets are performed every time I re-cal, just in case), and I take pics with my phone (or use a notepad) to jot details down like crossover points or slope, if they aren't easily remembered. Then I do the calibration with just the drivers seat (for now.)
> 
> If it sounds mostly right but needs that little extra, I balance full left and full forward, and sweep the system in REW with the various mic positions by my head. I then average those (but keep the old ones for distortion and timing measurements) Then I move to the right forward and sweep again, derive a right side average, and the and finally average the two sides because the MS-8 adjusts the 31 band across both.
> 
> I take that system average and run it through the EQ visualization with my target curve against it, and if I see a heavy dip or something I'll consider messing with phase on one side or more. If all that looks in good order, I'll make small tweaks to the 31 band MS-8 eq to try and get the response closest to my target curve and then sweep again, and see if the changes I'm making are actually getting close to my target. I may rinse-repeat this process a few times (slightly laborious, but effective), or I might tweak one of the gains on my amps up or down if the band is big and if I need it. Any change I make, I re-sweep and make sure I'm going the right direction.
> 
> I've also been known to stop and just wait for another day, if I feel ear fatigue. and ALWAYS wear hearing protection for the sweeps.


Wow awesome info! Thanks for the run through... I wish I could be half that dedicated. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## q2quest

fourthmeal said:


> My method generally, if starting from scratch:
> 
> Run pre-sweeps of the speakers (pre-ms8) if any speaker's frequency response is in question, so as to not "request" the MS-8 to fill in a hole it can't fill when it comes time to calibrate. By sweeping "raw", we can find where a speaker wants to crossover at, generally. I like doing this with the distortion measurements on, so any distortion caused by a speaker crossed too low can be avoided. A tiny 5hz change in the crossover settings in the MS-8 can have drastic effects to the final tune, so this is why I do it.
> 
> Once I know what my speakers can do, I begin a settting up and calibration with the MS-8 (master resets are performed every time I re-cal, just in case), and I take pics with my phone (or use a notepad) to jot details down like crossover points or slope, if they aren't easily remembered. Then I do the calibration with just the drivers seat (for now.)
> If it sounds mostly right but needs that little extra, I balance full left and full forward, and sweep the system in REW with the various mic positions by my head. I then average those (but keep the old ones for distortion and timing measurements) Then I move to the right forward and sweep again, derive a right side average, and the and finally average the two sides because the MS-8 adjusts the 31 band across both.
> 
> I take that system average and run it through the EQ visualization with my target curve against it, and if I see a heavy dip or something I'll consider messing with phase on one side or more. If all that looks in good order, I'll make small tweaks to the 31 band MS-8 eq to try and get the response closest to my target curve and then sweep again, and see if the changes I'm making are actually getting close to my target. I may rinse-repeat this process a few times (slightly laborious, but effective), or I might tweak one of the gains on my amps up or down if the band is big and if I need it. Any change I make, I re-sweep and make sure I'm going the right direction.
> 
> I've also been known to stop and just wait for another day, if I feel ear fatigue. and ALWAYS wear hearing protection for the sweeps.


You guys are miles ahead of me. I only understand about 10% of what's being said here. I'm a novice but a hobbyist mechanic and I do know the basics. I will try calibrating by using the Aux inputs.


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## q2quest

josby said:


> Is that the MS-8 driving a dual voice coil sub with its amplified outputs? Or MS-8's RCA out to an aftermarket powered sub? What sub is it?
> 
> And I second kaigoss's recommendation to listen through the AUX input if possible. In my testing, the MS-8's de-EQ of factory inputs isn't always perfect. Best to eliminate the input un-EQ as a variable and use the AUX input instead to help isolate whether the problem's with the input side or output side.


MS-8 RCA outs to a sub amp powering a 10" Pioneer sub.


----------



## litrekid

fourthmeal said:


> Well it is great that it will play loud. However, as you can see by your sweeps, the bass output is much lower down low. Idea: How about setting your infrasonic filter at 30hz, set the slope at a relatively shallow 12dB, and then proceed.
> 
> Alternate option, pipe the Sub to the midbass amp and "Kaigoss" it. Meaning, make your midbass and sub operate under one channel, and the MS-8 will read the sum total and work with that. This would be set up like : infrasonic 30hz : sub - none, midbass 80 (or 85ish), so what would happen here is your midbass (tied to your sub) would work as a single output.


Would my ms8 inputs have anything to do with my bass problem? I had the understanding that as long as I had 3 ok's that it didn't matter. With the stock HK system the 2 subs have 3 inputs. 2 into one speaker and 1 into the other. I have tried multiple input configurations with the fronts, center and door speakers but only 1 sub input. Do u think adding another sub input would help? I guess without prior testing it's probably hard to say. I'll give that a try this weekend. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## Lanson

litrekid said:


> Would my ms8 inputs have anything to do with my bass problem? I had the understanding that as long as I had 3 ok's that it didn't matter. With the stock HK system the 2 subs have 3 inputs. 2 into one speaker and 1 into the other. I have tried multiple input configurations with the fronts, center and door speakers but only 1 sub input. Do u think adding another sub input would help? I guess without prior testing it's probably hard to say. I'll give that a try this weekend.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


IMO, getting 3 OK's without going to "noisy" while getting as loud as you can on the factory dial is ideal. Example, in my Durango I got to the "noisy" mark way too early when I also connected my sub inputs from the factory processor/amp. Only after I disconnected those and re-ran calibration did I get where I want to be. However, every system is different, so don't be afraid to experiment. This is where using a terminal strip/block (insulated) can be very handy. You can make and break these connections without lots of cutting and soldering.


----------



## litrekid

fourthmeal said:


> IMO, getting 3 OK's without going to "noisy" while getting as loud as you can on the factory dial is ideal. Example, in my Durango I got to the "noisy" mark way too early when I also connected my sub inputs from the factory processor/amp. Only after I disconnected those and re-ran calibration did I get where I want to be. However, every system is different, so don't be afraid to experiment. This is where using a terminal strip/block (insulated) can be very handy. You can make and break these connections without lots of cutting and soldering.


I paid close attention to that part of your install and tried with and without but didn't make any difference. I did use the terminal strip you suggested and it worked great. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## Lanson

litrekid said:


> I paid close attention to that part of your install and tried with and without but didn't make any difference. I did use the terminal strip you suggested and it worked great.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


I don't think the input is really part of the problem, given that. 

This is one thing the MS-8 usually gets right without much effort, as long as the system reports OK's. But having it set as high as it will go (and then a click or two down before running calibration itself) gives you more granularity in your volume control, so that's always good. It sucks to have the sound muted and then one click up get blasted away. 

So with the infrasonic set higher (30hz @12dB perhaps), woofer crossover set conservatively (let's try 85hz @ 12dB or 24dB), and everything else like you want...how does that sound?


----------



## josby

fourthmeal said:


> My method generally, if starting from scratch:
> (cut)


That's great info! Very thorough. When you fade to the front and measure with REW, do you leave Logic7 on or off for that? I'm not clear on whether Logic7 would try to steer most of a sweep to the center channel or not. Not sure how to decide which way it should be set for the sweeps.

What is the target curve you use?


----------



## Lanson

josby said:


> That's great info! Very thorough. When you fade to the front and measure with REW, do you leave Logic7 on or off for that? I'm not clear on whether Logic7 would try to steer most of a sweep to the center channel or not. Not sure how to decide which way it should be set for the sweeps.
> 
> What is the target curve you use?


I usually leave the Logic7 on. I did a non-center setup with the MS-8 a while back and, while I wasn't as good with REW and measurements back then, I left Logic7 off for that one.

I will say, I usually have to tweak by ear the sound just the tiniest amounts, after I move everything back to center and faded to the expected spot (I usually go one to two clicks forward of center on the MS-8 controller.) I also fiddle with the center channel volume on the MS-8 controller as well, usually taking it down a click or two. Once I have those set like I think I want it, then I'll go back to the EQ while listening to known music, and just make baby tweaks here and there. Like all tuning/optimization exercises, I found that I'll get 80% there really quickly, and then the rest comes with a much longer time frame. 

I know my system isn't the best out there but it really impresses me with my favorite music. The Logic7 really, really works well with EDM music that's been well-produced. There's so much "space" in the original recordings, so many nuances that shift front to back, left to right, in and out of phase, ec. Its just a trip to hear it all without resorting to some good earphones. On Rock or Rap/R&B, Logic7 is hit and miss so sometimes the system sounds very thin, sometimes it sounds bloated, and I guess this is all due to the original recording/producing phases and how they utilize the tech available to them. For my music it can take me on a journey and I'm just 100% smiles, lol.

My target curve is a hybrid of Hanatsu's and Jazzi's. Also I just hand-tweaked some of the bass down to what I feel sounds pretty good. But once I'm close to that, I just go by ear and ignore what REW is saying.

edit: oh and I take phone pics of the EQ settings of the MS-8 each and every step. It is super-helpful since there's no other way to translate the MS-8's changes to software, so pics handle it.


----------



## josby

q2quest said:


> MS-8 RCA outs to a sub amp powering a 10" Pioneer sub.


Is it a small sealed box? If so, this from Andy may be helpful:



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8 uses 50-80 Hz to figure out the level of the bass. It uses 80-300 to figure out the level of the midbass-midrange. Then, it adjusts the output level of the channels. Then, it EQs the combination of channels. If your sub crossover is set close to the 50Hz spot and the response of your subwoofer has a giant peak between 50 and 80Hz which is common for small sealed boxes, then MS-8 will reduce the level of the channel. this can result in too little bass. If your subwoofer's response has a big peak at 40Hz, then MS-8 will not reduce the level because most of that peak is outside the band of frequencies it checks. That can result in too much bass.
> 
> If your box is small and sealed and you don't hear enough bass, turn the gain of the sub amp DOWN so MS-8 will increase the level of the channel and boost using the EQ.


In my case, my sub had a huge peak at 50 Hz then a big drop-off above that. But I was powering it from the MS-8 so I couldn't change the gain setting for it like Andy recommends.

So what I ended up doing was turning the sub control up close to the max after calibration, then used the EQ to lower the 25, 32, 40, and 50 Hz bands down quite a bit.


----------



## litrekid

fourthmeal said:


> I don't think the input is really part of the problem, given that.
> 
> This is one thing the MS-8 usually gets right without much effort, as long as the system reports OK's. But having it set as high as it will go (and then a click or two down before running calibration itself) gives you more granularity in your volume control, so that's always good. It sucks to have the sound muted and then one click up get blasted away.
> 
> So with the infrasonic set higher (30hz @12dB perhaps), woofer crossover set conservatively (let's try 85hz @ 12dB or 24dB), and everything else like you want...how does that sound?


I your experience when setting the inputs are you able to find one volume level that works? When setting my volume 32 is it. One up is too noisy and one down is too low. I just wondered if that's typical. 

As for the settings u suggest, im going to do just as u say hopefully in the coming days. 60hr work week, guitar practice, swim practice..... Not enough hours in the day with a family. Not to mention I don't drive the car in the winter. Im sure u understand. Im just glad the install is done. This part seems more fun to me. Trying to figure out the riddle. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## josby

litrekid said:


> I your experience when setting the inputs are you able to find one volume level that works? When setting my volume 32 is it. One up is too noisy and one down is too low. I just wondered if that's typical.


In my car, anything below 29 registers as Low, and everything from 29 to 40 (the max) registers as OK.


----------



## DC/Hertz

I'm sick of mine. I have a 10db null on my right mid and it boost it like crazy to the point I have to cut 10db 400-600hz. It also pulls the center to the right to the point I have to move the balance 4 clicks to the left to line it up. 
Luckily Metra finally has a dash kit coming so I can get rid of it and try something else.


----------



## Lanson

litrekid said:


> I your experience when setting the inputs are you able to find one volume level that works? When setting my volume 32 is it. One up is too noisy and one down is too low. I just wondered if that's typical.
> 
> As for the settings u suggest, im going to do just as u say hopefully in the coming days. 60hr work week, guitar practice, swim practice..... Not enough hours in the day with a family. Not to mention I don't drive the car in the winter. Im sure u understand. Im just glad the install is done. This part seems more fun to me. Trying to figure out the riddle.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


One up too noisy and one down too low sounds like a very bad situation. Think of "noisy" as clipping. Now, remember what you were saying earlier, how you were hearing very little until suddenly all hell broke loose and it bottomed out? You are probably hitting a very, very hard clipping wall. 

I have a dumb question...did you by chance bypass the factory amp and instead connect direct to the head unit? I can't imagine the factory amp not being powerful enough to "please" the MS-8 inputs. They have a wide range of input control, from millivolts to many volts.

For comparison, I can go from 1/4 volume and up to almost maximum (with the sub input disconnected) and not get "noisy", so all of that is usable. 

This is all starting to come together. There should be a large progression of acceptable volume before you run into "noisy", which is clipping. That clipping is probably damn-near a square wave, its going to be horrendous. 

Side point, remember it takes a bit of time for the MS-8 to register a volume change and give the OK's. So I usually have the WAV track on replay, and make small volume changes at a time and let the unit report back to me after a couple seconds.


----------



## Lanson

DC/Hertz said:


> I'm sick of mine. I have a 10db null on my right mid and it boost it like crazy to the point I have to cut 10db 400-600hz. It also pulls the center to the right to the point I have to move the balance 4 clicks to the left to line it up.
> Luckily Metra finally has a dash kit coming so I can get rid of it and try something else.


Situations like this suggest to me it isn't the MS-8 at fault.

Sweep your speakers individually and check the responses. A null can't be cured by EQ, a change in crossover or slope or phase may be the right answer. 

And of course make sure your headphones are on the right way.


----------



## litrekid

fourthmeal said:


> One up too noisy and one down too low sounds like a very bad situation. Think of "noisy" as clipping. Now, remember what you were saying earlier, how you were hearing very little until suddenly all hell broke loose and it bottomed out? You are probably hitting a very, very hard clipping wall.
> 
> I have a dumb question...did you by chance bypass the factory amp and instead connect direct to the head unit? I can't imagine the factory amp not being powerful enough to "please" the MS-8 inputs. They have a wide range of input control, from millivolts to many volts.
> 
> For comparison, I can go from 1/4 volume and up to almost maximum (with the sub input disconnected) and not get "noisy", so all of that is usable.
> 
> This is all starting to come together. There should be a large progression of acceptable volume before you run into "noisy", which is clipping. That clipping is probably damn-near a square wave, its going to be horrendous.
> 
> Side point, remember it takes a bit of time for the MS-8 to register a volume change and give the OK's. So I usually have the WAV track on replay, and make small volume changes at a time and let the unit report back to me after a couple seconds.


I have the factory wiring diagram and made sure to the best of my ability to take the inputs after the amp. When I get home I will post a pic of the diagram and show exactly where in coming from. I thought that seemed weird that it was so narrow. Could it be that I don't have enough imputed to the ms8. It's 18 speakers and all but 4 r coaxial. Maybe I should add say a side and a front into one input?

Also I did make sure to wait at each volume level for it to calculate. 
Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## DC/Hertz

fourthmeal said:


> Situations like this suggest to me it isn't the MS-8 at fault.
> 
> Sweep your speakers individually and check the responses. A null can't be cured by EQ, a change in crossover or slope or phase may be the right answer.
> 
> And of course make sure your headphones are on the right way.


I've had it for years. Calibrated hundreds of times. The null is right in the middle of the midrange. It could just cut the Left door instead but it don't.


----------



## Lanson

DC/Hertz said:


> I've had it for years. Calibrated hundreds of times. The null is right in the middle of the midrange. It could just cut the Left door instead but it don't.


Is it the center hump null that most cars have? Is the wavelength the same length as the distance from the speaker to the center console edge?

Is it audible?


----------



## DC/Hertz

Yes, I don't know, when I cut all the EQ to get it to stop no it's not audible.

Oh. Forgot to add how it boost the hell out of the sub.


----------



## litrekid

This is what in working with. No matter what combo I try it's too low at 31 and noisy at 33. One thing I noticed is some r amplified and some r not. I have only used the amplified ones. This is really bugging me.
















Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## q2quest

kaigoss69 said:


> I would question the input. Can you use the Aux in to bypass the HU?


So, I recalibrated using the Aux in (skipping Input Setup) and there was a big increase in sound quality. So we're onto something. However, for the next experiment I tried to run the calibration from my iPod to the MS-8 input Channels 1 and 2 as if I had an aftermarket deck. I skipped the Input Setup and just ran the x-over setup. After calibrating I had absolutely no sound output (yes, I remembered to switch the source back to main). So what gives? Is there a problem with the input side of the MS-8?


----------



## kaigoss69

q2quest said:


> So, I recalibrated using the Aux in (skipping Input Setup) and there was a big increase in sound quality. So we're onto something. However, for the next experiment I tried to run the calibration from my iPod to the MS-8 input Channels 1 and 2 as if I had an aftermarket deck. I skipped the Input Setup and just ran the x-over setup. After calibrating I had absolutely no sound output (yes, I remembered to switch the source back to main). So what gives? Is there a problem with the input side of the MS-8?


Do you still have the high-level input harness plugged in???


----------



## Lanson

Those look very familiar, my Durango diagrams, I had to do the exact same thing and tape them together. I bet your amp and my stock amp are really similar. That means it should work!

Make sure your inputs are connected into the amp of course.





litrekid said:


> This is what in working with. No matter what combo I try it's too low at 31 and noisy at 33. One thing I noticed is some r amplified and some r not. I have only used the amplified ones. This is really bugging me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## litrekid

I wonder if logic7 is messing up my inputs. I don't have any way of turning it off unless the "surround" mode in settings is it. I just can't figure any logical way that my inputs r not giving me any volume variation. Unless there is something wrong with the ms8 it's self. I think I will try moving the FR and FL down to different inputs. It shouldn't matter as long as it's before the sub input. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Definitely turn off the surround sound

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## litrekid

All adjustable parameters are turned off or flat. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## q2quest

kaigoss69 said:


> Do you still have the high-level input harness plugged in???


No, I had the high level inputs unplugged, but I ran another experiment last night. I recalibrated using the head unit (not aux) and turned the gain down on the tweeter channel amplifier in relation to the mid amplifier. Using a decibel meter app for my phone I took readings at all the front speakers while playing the MS-8 test tones. I measured 74db at the tweeters on both sides and 68db for the mids. I don't even know if what I was doing is appropriate because I'm a novice, but decided to try and make the mids and tweets as close to the same decibel output with the amp gains. Do I have the concept all wrong?


----------



## Lanson

litrekid said:


> I wonder if logic7 is messing up my inputs. I don't have any way of turning it off unless the "surround" mode in settings is it. I just can't figure any logical way that my inputs r not giving me any volume variation. Unless there is something wrong with the ms8 it's self. I think I will try moving the FR and FL down to different inputs. It shouldn't matter as long as it's before the sub input.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


The best way to determine this is to use the AUX input. Plug it right in to your phone or some sort of device, and play. If it still sounds way off, we've got problems (assuming the calibration/crossover/slopes/etc are "good"), 

Remind me exactly what vehicle and radio trim you have, I'll look around for the proper diagrams.


----------



## litrekid

fourthmeal said:


> The best way to determine this is to use the AUX input. Plug it right in to your phone or some sort of device, and play. If it still sounds way off, we've got problems (assuming the calibration/crossover/slopes/etc are "good"),
> 
> Remind me exactly what vehicle and radio trim you have, I'll look around for the proper diagrams.


It's a 2015 challenger SRT. Those diagrams are straight off the dealer network. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## Lanson

litrekid said:


> It's a 2015 challenger SRT. Those diagrams are straight off the dealer network.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


Yeah I didn't mean proper as in you not having factory diagrams, I meant proper as in the appropriate ones for your trim. 

Does it count as a "Premium 3"?

edit: Assuming it does, 

Why don't we try a minimal connection setup? Fade everything on the head unit full-front and center, and just use these inputs:

*edit I got these wrong, do not follow these*

[strike]Connector C1 - [Pin 6 - gray/violet LF+] [Pin 7 - gray/yellow LF-] to input 1 on MS-8
Connector C1 - [Pin 9 - dark green/violet RF+] [Pin 8 - dark green/yellow RF-] to input 2 MS-8[/strike]

If you want to add center, 
Connector C2 - [Pin 20 - gray/orange C+] [Pin 19 gray/brown C-] to input 3 MS-8, not sure it will be necessary but whatev's

I'd just stop there for now. The MS-8 will complain of not getting a whole signal (signal low, signal noisy) if this isn't enough. If this isn't good enough, we can try adding the tweeters but you may not need to.


edit: playing with the Premium 2 option, the pins change up quite a bit on the connectors, so let's make VERY sure you have Premium 3 before going forward.


----------



## litrekid

OK, im not sure why there is even any different options for stereo because the premium HK system is standard on the SRT challenger. I have the print outs for all of them and based off the fact that the p3 has 3 sets of wires for the sub as mine does then the p3 is what I have. Some of the pins, connectors and wire colors u have listed are different then what I show. So what I did is connected the FL pin 6 & 7and FR pins 9 & 8 only. Pretty sure that is what you were suggesting. With just those 2 inputs I have 2 levels of volume now. 32 low, 33 34 OK and 35 no signal. 

You mentioned using the tweeters and I noticed them on my schematics also but there are no tweeters. Just 7 3.5" coax and the 2 door speakers r 6x9 that only play bass. I'll have more time tomorrow to try some other combinations. 


Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## Lanson

litrekid said:


> OK, im not sure why there is even any different options for stereo because the premium HK system is standard on the SRT challenger. I have the print outs for all of them and based off the fact that the p3 has 3 sets of wires for the sub as mine does then the p3 is what I have. Some of the pins, connectors and wire colors u have listed are different then what I show. So what I did is connected the FL pin 6 & 7and FR pins 9 & 8 only. Pretty sure that is what you were suggesting. With just those 2 inputs I have 2 levels of volume now. 32 low, 33 34 OK and 35 no signal.
> 
> You mentioned using the tweeters and I noticed them on my schematics also but there are no tweeters. Just 7 3.5" coax and the 2 door speakers r 6x9 that only play bass. I'll have more time tomorrow to try some other combinations.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


Disregard my previous pin callouts. I am almost certain I was reading the wrong diagram. I should not have tried to multitask while reading those at work.

I see premium 1, premium 2, and premium 3 listed for your vehicle (along with Base.) Now Chrysler doesn't make mention of which one the SRT Challenger has, but we can assume it is 2 or 3 for sure. When they build the manuals, they do it for all Challengers so there's no distinction in the manual. 

There's no reason why you'd get "no signal" on volume level 35. Did you let the signal wav file loop and let it pick it up on the replay?

I have to imagine we're just one thing off from getting this right. Your car and my Durango are very similar. I got mine to sound awesome so I think yours can too. I have "Beats" audio but that's just a name, its all just Chrysler stuff. HK may be different but they don't mention it in the service manual. Harman Kardon Automotive Dodge Challenger makes mention of the speakers. I don't think they properly describe the amp location though.

We'll stick with Premium 3 for connectors and pins and whatnot, but what I want to do is make sure this all lines up. I want to give an example of what can go wrong... when I was doing up my Durango, I accidentally tapped into the wrong connector. The colors all lined up, but it was the input side of the amp, not the output. It has two connectors and the colors are reused. So I had no output when I was supposed to. Make sense?



OK so let me try the pin assignment thing again. Like I said disregard the last ones, I'm sure I was looking at the wrong Premium set.

I'm showing the amp on the driver's instrument panel side.

Connector C1 is a gray, female connector. It has 22 pin cavities. 
Connector C2 is a white, female connector. It also has 22 pin cavities. 

Connector C2 - [Left Front + gray/violet pin 22] [Left Front - gray/yellow pin 21]
Connector C2 - [Right Front + dark green/violet pin 10] [Right Front - dark green/yellow pin 11]

And your instrument panel speakers, if you need them

Connector C2 - [Left Front Instrument Panel + gray/orange pin 6] [Left Front Instrument Panel - gray/yellow pin 7] (here's a good example, they used the gray/yellow color twice so far.)
Connector C2 - [Right Front Instrument Panel + gray/dark green pin 9] [Right Front Instrument Panel - pin 8] 

And if you need center
Connector C2 - [Center Instrument Panel + gray/orange pin 20] [Center Instrument Panel - gray/brown pin 19] (Another example, they used gray/orange again]

So hopefully I got this right, this time. It appears that the C1 connector is ignored if we are faded to the front 100%. If you used any pins from C1, this may be where the problem is.


----------



## spitfire91104

Quick question for you guys. Searched the thread but couldn't find anything related.

I have an amp with no crossovers and can only use 1 channel on the ms8 for my center. My center consists of a kind of homemade coaxial. Mounted my own choice of tweeter on it but need them both to recieve their own channel of power. 

Which would be a smarter choice? A passive crossover or something like the audiocontrol 6xs or 2xs ran between the ms8 and amp? 

The main thing I am worried about is the line driver in either of those and whether or not an electronic crossover would interfere or pollute the ms8 signal.


----------



## Lanson

spitfire91104 said:


> Quick question for you guys. Searched the thread but couldn't find anything related.
> 
> I have an amp with no crossovers and can only use 1 channel on the ms8 for my center. My center consists of a kind of homemade coaxial. Mounted my own choice of tweeter on it but need them both to recieve their own channel of power.
> 
> Which would be a smarter choice? A passive crossover or something like the audiocontrol 6xs or 2xs ran between the ms8 and amp?
> 
> The main thing I am worried about is the line driver in either of those and whether or not an electronic crossover would interfere or pollute the ms8 signal.


Based on direct experience, I would use a single passive crossover. The Ms-8 can "compensate" for most frequency imperfections, which may come from a simplistic "add-on" tweeter. Since they are point-source or close to it, a basic 1st order crossover on the tweeter should be sufficient. The MS-8 will take it from there provided the dB output of the speakers are roughly matched. They can be a few dB off from each other too, nothing the EQ can't fix when it "hears" the speaker.


----------



## spitfire91104

fourthmeal said:


> Based on direct experience, I would use a single passive crossover. The Ms-8 can "compensate" for most frequency imperfections, which may come from a simplistic "add-on" tweeter. Since they are point-source or close to it, a basic 1st order crossover on the tweeter should be sufficient. The MS-8 will take it from there provided the dB output of the speakers are roughly matched. They can be a few dB off from each other too, nothing the EQ can't fix when it "hears" the speaker.


Sounds good. 

Thank you for the quick input.


----------



## Lanson

spitfire91104 said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> Thank you for the quick input.


If the speaker in question has a harsh breakup, make it a two-way crossover.

I did that with the Dayton RS125 I used as my woofer part of my two-way center, FYI, and I used a 2nd order filter, which the MS-8 had no issue with.

But if it is a "typical" full-ranger or a speaker without heavy cone breakup up high, stick with the single crossover on the tweeter like Andy has suggested before.


----------



## litrekid

As for the no signal at higher volume it is pretty consistent no matter how I have it connected. It is definitely not loosing it because I have one side speaker still hooked up for beeps and even full y faded forward I can hear the white noise on it. 

All my connections have been off c2. That is where most of the speakers come through. I tried the front dash only door 6x9 only and no matter what I still get OK just with a tiny little window of adjustment. Everything has been from c2. I just don't think I can move forward with this until I can sort out this volume calibration. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## Lanson

litrekid said:


> As for the no signal at higher volume it is pretty consistent no matter how I have it connected. It is definitely not loosing it because I have one side speaker still hooked up for beeps and even full y faded forward I can hear the white noise on it.
> 
> All my connections have been off c2. That is where most of the speakers come through. I tried the front dash only door 6x9 only and no matter what I still get OK just with a tiny little window of adjustment. Everything has been from c2. I just don't think I can move forward with this until I can sort out this volume calibration.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


I completely agree!

I'm not sure what alternatives there are (certainly not with center channel control), but we'll need to start considering. I just don't know why the MS-8 is having issues with your setup. I really wish I could lay my paws on it for a day. As long as you're pulling from the amp and not the head unit, I can't imagine you being short (or "Signal Low").

One thing you could try to do is run a spectrum scan with a laptop, REW or other measuring software, and a direct tap from the speaker wires themselves. You would run a sweep and measure the actual electrical output of the factory amp, which would tell you if it is flat or not, if it is full-range or not, etc. In theory, if you could find a full 20-20k (or close) from it via any means, then the MS-8 could use it. Alternatively, maybe use a line converter (try a cheap one first) and see if converting to RCA makes the MS-8 function. Skipping calibration may also work (possibly...depends on sweeps.)

Also, sorry about fubbing the pin assignments previously. Not a good thing to do.


----------



## litrekid

fourthmeal said:


> I completely agree!
> 
> I'm not sure what alternatives there are (certainly not with center channel control), but we'll need to start considering. I just don't know why the MS-8 is having issues with your setup. I really wish I could lay my paws on it for a day. As long as you're pulling from the amp and not the head unit, I can't imagine you being short (or "Signal Low").
> 
> One thing you could try to do is run a spectrum scan with a laptop, REW or other measuring software, and a direct tap from the speaker wires themselves. You would run a sweep and measure the actual electrical output of the factory amp, which would tell you if it is flat or not, if it is full-range or not, etc. In theory, if you could find a full 20-20k (or close) from it via any means, then the MS-8 could use it. Alternatively, maybe use a line converter (try a cheap one first) and see if converting to RCA makes the MS-8 function. Skipping calibration may also work (possibly...depends on sweeps.)
> 
> Also, sorry about fubbing the pin assignments previously. Not a good thing to do.


Please don't apologise for anything, you are helping me. I wish I had access to a laptop so I could try out this REW program. One thing that just popped in my head is somewhere in one of the hundred or so threads I have read I remember someone saying they had to add resistors to the inputs in order to get the ms8 to recognize them. Now I have a very basic understanding of how this all works so that might be completely stupid and I could be remembering it wrong as well but could that have any bearing on this? 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## kaigoss69

q2quest said:


> No, I had the high level inputs unplugged, but I ran another experiment last night. I recalibrated using the head unit (not aux) and turned the gain down on the tweeter channel amplifier in relation to the mid amplifier. Using a decibel meter app for my phone I took readings at all the front speakers while playing the MS-8 test tones. I measured 74db at the tweeters on both sides and 68db for the mids. I don't even know if what I was doing is appropriate because I'm a novice, but decided to try and make the mids and tweets as close to the same decibel output with the amp gains. Do I have the concept all wrong?


Just making sure, you are taking the dB readings at the head position, right? I set the tweeter level approx. 3-5 dB below the midranges, because that is how the algorithm will attempt to shape the curve. This way it has an easier time arriving at the target curve without using up too much level and EQ.

Edit, checked my notes: Tweeter level about 2-3 dB below midranges (mid bass about 7-9 dB ABOVE midranges).

So now you are getting volume after calibration with the HU? Problem solved?


----------



## Lanson

litrekid said:


> Please don't apologise for anything, you are helping me. I wish I had access to a laptop so I could try out this REW program. One thing that just popped in my head is somewhere in one of the hundred or so threads I have read I remember someone saying they had to add resistors to the inputs in order to get the ms8 to recognize them. Now I have a very basic understanding of how this all works so that might be completely stupid and I could be remembering it wrong as well but could that have any bearing on this?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


It is possible you need a resistor network, but I didn't need anything like that so I was assuming you wouldn't need it either. The JL Audio Fix product has something like that built-in, I understand.


----------



## litrekid

It is just as easy as putting a resistor inline of each speaker right?

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## josby

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Most graphic EQs don't give you what you may think you're getting. depending on the Q values that are chosen for the filters, the sum of adjacent band adjustments may be flat or they may have little dips in between the boosts. Many of them have qs that are wide enough not to produce those little peaks and valleys, but then the sum of the adjacent filters produces far more boost or cut that you might expect.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> MS-8's 31-band graphic works differently. When you adjust bands, the EQ adjusts the adjacent bands automatically to match the response to your intended response.































Snow trapped me inside all weekend last weekend and I ended up tinkering with the MS-8 some. I remembered reading the quote above from Andy, and seeing him say repeatedly "the curve you draw is the curve you get", so I tried it out. I thought it was kind of cool seeing just how accurately it does work so I thought I'd share. A pic of the MS-8's EQ settings is overlaid on each graph. A few more here if you're interested.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

That's excellent information...there's so many who bash the MS-8 but I don't think they've taken the time to figure out what wrong in their install. Andy always said that the MS-8 can't fix poor driver application but it can try. I always have a sneaking suspicion that either the HU is doing something they don't know or that something is secretly wrong with their hardware or implementation


----------



## Lanson

litrekid said:


> It is just as easy as putting a resistor inline of each speaker right?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


I'll defer to the experts on this, not sure how its implemented for sure, but my gut says use a string of euro barrier strips on a board with resistors in between, and then mount that somehow.


----------



## litrekid

So I am waiting on some resistors to be delivered and I got to thinking. I had to copy the audio file from the CD to a thumb drive because I have no CD player. I don't know much about all the different music files used but I think I just copied the .wav file from the CD. If I didn't do that right could that be causing these volume issues im having during input calibration?

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## FordEscape

As long as you did a straight WAV copy you are OK. If your copy is any sort of MPx or any other compressed format that could cause trouble.


----------



## Lanson

FordEscape said:


> As long as you did a straight WAV copy you are OK. If your copy is any sort of MPx or any other compressed format that could cause trouble.


That's right! Use WAV or another lossless type. My MS-8 test file is on a wav on a flash drive, easy.


----------



## Lanson

so very true, one reason I really like tuning with the MS-8. It usually needs some additional tuning with REW and the 31-bander, but when you're doing it, it does what you really want, and keeps the crazy to a minimum (like a hole in-between bands, which can be infuriating.)



josby said:


> Snow trapped me inside all weekend last weekend and I ended up tinkering with the MS-8 some. I remembered reading the quote above from Andy, and seeing him say repeatedly "the curve you draw is the curve you get", so I tried it out. I thought it was kind of cool seeing just how accurately it does work so I thought I'd share. A pic of the MS-8's EQ settings is overlaid on each graph. A few more here if you're interested.


----------



## litrekid

Well 30 ohm resistors made no difference. I really didn't think it would but I don't know what else to try. Still only get all OK at volume 33. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## blkac33

Was there ever a solution to the jet engine noise? I've looking through most of the thread but haven't found anything.


----------



## DC/Hertz

I think it was the mic staying plugged in was the issue. I leave mine in because it's hard to get to but no issues

I got mine really dialed in but I'm going to finish the trunk with some paneling. Fingers are crossed I won't have to retune


----------



## blkac33

Thank! Hope everthing goes well for you.


----------



## blkac33

Just recalled reading that people were having issues with jet engine noise while the mic was unplugged also.


----------



## Lanson

litrekid said:


> Well 30 ohm resistors made no difference. I really didn't think it would but I don't know what else to try. Still only get all OK at volume 33.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


The only thing I can think of now is to measure the output of the factory amp electrically, and see what's going on as the dial is turned up. 

Did you try another copy of the wav file?


----------



## litrekid

fourthmeal said:


> The only thing I can think of now is to measure the output of the factory amp electrically, and see what's going on as the dial is turned up.
> 
> Did you try another copy of the wav file?


No but I will try that tonight

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## Lanson

litrekid said:


> No but I will try that tonight
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P



I so hope that's it. I'm out of solutions after that.

Stupid question but if you just connect to aux in, does it sound good? Like if you grab an ipod or phone and just plug in?


----------



## litrekid

fourthmeal said:


> I so hope that's it. I'm out of solutions after that.
> 
> Stupid question but if you just connect to aux in, does it sound good? Like if you grab an ipod or phone and just plug in?


Well I re copied the file and I did get a better volume range. O have from 26 - 32 now so that definitely was an issue. Do u think that is acceptable like that? Something I have noticed even before redoing the wav file is at a higher volume levels while doing input calibration I can hear crackling from the amp that coincides with the white noise. I still get all ok's even when I hear that though. That's still a mystery. 

I can actually get it tuned to sound pretty good really and playing the auxiliary sounds good too so I just need some time to play with and I think I'll be good. I'll just have to boost the bass to get it where I want. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## Lanson

litrekid said:


> Well I re copied the file and I did get a better volume range. O have from 26 - 32 now so that definitely was an issue. Do u think that is acceptable like that? Something I have noticed even before redoing the wav file is at a higher volume levels while doing input calibration I can hear crackling from the amp that coincides with the white noise. I still get all ok's even when I hear that though. That's still a mystery.
> 
> I can actually get it tuned to sound pretty good really and playing the auxiliary sounds good too so I just need some time to play with and I think I'll be good. I'll just have to boost the bass to get it where I want.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


Yep, that's pretty good. It wants a near-optimal volume for OK, OK, OK, so it sounds like you got it. NOW, get those crossover points pretty conservative for this first tune, check polarity if you hear any weakness at the crossover points, and lets see if you can get this car sounding good once and for all.


edit: what crackling?? You shouldn't be hearing squat during this calibration, as the MS-8 doesn't know its outputs yet. If you haven't yet done a factory reset yet, do that and then calibrate at one click under the max OK OK OK.


----------



## litrekid

Sorry, it's the factory amp. It's like I can hear the white noise inside the amp. I'll see what f I can get it recorded later and post it. It's strange but doesn't seem to cause any problems. I'll likely go home and do a full reset and go from there. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## Lanson

litrekid said:


> Sorry, it's the factory amp. It's like I can hear the white noise inside the amp. I'll see what f I can get it recorded later and post it. It's strange but doesn't seem to cause any problems. I'll likely go home and do a full reset and go from there.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


You think maybe its a speaker in the system or something? 

Like a backup beeper?

That's creepy btw.


----------



## FordEscape

litrekid said:


> Sorry, it's the factory amp. It's like I can hear the white noise inside the amp. ....


IIRC you have some channels powered by the MS-8 and some powered by amps after the MS-8, correct?

So if the 'white noise' is from the factory 'amp' (HU in your case, correct?) then:

You hear it on all channels - both the ones powered by the MS-8 AND the ones powered by the amp after the MS-8 - is that correct?

You don't hear it when using an aux source plugged directly to the MS-8 aux input - also correct?

I'm just trying to ensure that the noise is from the HU, not from another link in the chain.


----------



## Lanson

Exactly. There should be no noise at all, during this setup. The MS-8 needs total control over all speakers in the system, absolutely nothing should be making noise then. 

If you hear the sound, its more like a weird pulsing left and then right. It is unmistakable. Not really white noise though.


----------



## litrekid

https://vimeo.com/201777497The sound is coming directly from the amp. It's not loud at all. It's just like "what is that sound" when it's quiet. I tried playing regular music and I could hear it with that as well. Whatever I am playing I can hear a faint crackling of it in the amp. I have a recording of it and it sounds worse then it is because I shoved my Dayton mic right up by it. It's probably nothing but I wondered if anyone else experienced it. If u listen closely u can hear the ms8 (alternating static) track playing on a speaker I have plugged in for backup beeps. 

Other then that and still lack of bass it sounds really good. I am still playing around with it but I think I'll have it sounding pretty good after boosting the bass. 



Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## t3sn4f2

blkac33 said:


> Was there ever a solution to the jet engine noise? I've looking through most of the thread but haven't found anything.


Andy mentioned a while back that it was due to a memory over flow of some type IIRC, from too many consecutive calibrations without a periodic reset. I don't recall if this was done by pressing the reset button or by restoring to factory default in the menu.

Edit:

Couldn't find the specific post but here one related to it for a different type of issue.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1295066-post5061.html


----------



## TheTodd

I just installed my MS8 today and have several problems I need help with. 

1) My setup CD won't even play in my Pioneer head unit. It just says "Unplayable Disc". So, per Andy's instructions I set my amp gains to 2V, set the MS8 to -40 and ran the sweeps. After, my system sounds HORRIBLE. My stage went from being centered in front of the driver to smashed all left. The sub sounds like it's trying to tear itself apart. I read that the sweeps are too loud. I ran the sweeps DOZENS of times at many different volume combos. Even with the sweeps barely audible... same results... EVERY time. 

2) With L7 on/off there is no change whatsoever. Turn off the processing, however, and the sub becomes much more civilized. No matter the setting my midbass has completely disappeared. 

3) I experimented with many different x-over settings and it makes no difference. 

My pre-MS8 system consisted of the same Pioneer AVH-4400 running to a JL HD900/5. Front channels running a PPI 3-way set running passive from 80 and up, rear channels unused, and the sub channel running a PPI 15" mounted IB from 80 down. My image was centered in front of the driver but the tonality and overall sound/experience was the best I've experienced in my 25+ yrs in this hobby.

Now, the front output of the Pioneer goes into the Input 1 of the MS8. Channels 1&2 out go to the front channels on the JL which power the mids/tweets running passive (mids in top of dash & tweets in sails). 3&4 outputs run to the rear channels of the JL which powers the midbasses in the doors. 5&6 run to the sub input on the JL. 

I'm really frustrated at this point. The total work/effort that went into just getting this thing in and new amp rack built makes me want to see this through but the other part of me wants to rip it out, sell it, and go back to the way it was. Stage was off but at least it sounded good. Please help!!!


----------



## DC/Hertz

Make sure everything is in phase. Bump the sub gain up pre calibration and lower or back afterwords. Get it right and your mind will be blown.


----------



## Golfntob

TheTodd said:


> I just installed my MS8 today and have several problems I need help with.
> 
> 1) My setup CD won't even play in my Pioneer head unit. It just says "Unplayable Disc". So, per Andy's instructions I set my amp gains to 2V, set the MS8 to -40 and ran the sweeps. After, my system sounds HORRIBLE. My stage went from being centered in front of the driver to smashed all left. The sub sounds like it's trying to tear itself apart. I read that the sweeps are too loud. I ran the sweeps DOZENS of times at many different volume combos. Even with the sweeps barely audible... same results... EVERY time.
> 
> 2) With L7 on/off there is no change whatsoever. Turn off the processing, however, and the sub becomes much more civilized. No matter the setting my midbass has completely disappeared.
> 
> 3) I experimented with many different x-over settings and it makes no difference.
> 
> My pre-MS8 system consisted of the same Pioneer AVH-4400 running to a JL HD900/5. Front channels running a PPI 3-way set running passive from 80 and up, rear channels unused, and the sub channel running a PPI 15" mounted IB from 80 down. My image was centered in front of the driver but the tonality and overall sound/experience was the best I've experienced in my 25+ yrs in this hobby.
> 
> Now, the front output of the Pioneer goes into the Input 1 of the MS8. Channels 1&2 out go to the front channels on the JL which power the mids/tweets running passive (mids in top of dash & tweets in sails). 3&4 outputs run to the rear channels of the JL which powers the midbasses in the doors. 5&6 run to the sub input on the JL.
> 
> I'm really frustrated at this point. The total work/effort that went into just getting this thing in and new amp rack built makes me want to see this through but the other part of me wants to rip it out, sell it, and go back to the way it was. Stage was off but at least it sounded good. Please help!!!


If you have a single channel for your sub you will only want to connect one RCA, and select 1 during the sub select setup. Make sure you cannot feel the sub during the sweeps only slightly hear it. You can always turn the up a little afterwards.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Lanson

No need to do head unit calibration with an aftermarket deck. Skip this. 

Check each channel to confirm LF is LF, RF is RF, and so on. Check to make sure you aren't wearing the earphones backwards. 

Make sure your crossovers are WELL within the speaker's frequency response range. If you aren't sure, sweep the speaker (within its limits) and measure response with a mic and software. If you are not sure what is a good number, most 6.5" woofers can start around 90-100 hz, so that's good. The mid-tweet setup, say 400hz probably? But keep in mind, every build is different, and if you're not sure, mic-measure them first and know what they can do. 

Make sure phase isn't an issue. It can sometimes be a BIG issue.

Disregard Logic7, you don't have a center channel.

edit: you mentioned input 1. I pray you meant 1 and 2.


----------



## TheTodd

Thanks for the help guys! First... Yes, I'm using inputs 1&2. At first I thought you saved my butt... I thought maybe I used inputs 1&5 accidentally (5 being below one) but this was not the case.

Second, I am using both outputs 5&6 for sub duty and both inputs on the amp.

Third, I should have mentioned my crossover points currently (sorry, I was typing AND trying to watch Walking Dead at the same time... not easy to do). Sub is 20-80, woofers are 80-400 and mid/tweets are 400-20K.

I don't have a mic OR software so those options are out for me... I also skipped the head unit calibration (mostly out of need) but I was trying to cover all my bases when it turned out poopy on the first go-round.

I attempted a quick and dirty phase check on my way to work this morning. It sounded like my right woofer was out so I switched it and things started to come back to life.  After running the sweeps in the parking lot (and many strange looks from coworkers while wearing "old-school headphones" things sound much better... except for the sub... still WAY too loud. I'll have to play with the gain setting over my lunch break as it's difficult to access the way my new rack is set up. I think I'm on the right track now though!!

I knew it was user error of some kind, but after being bent over backwards in a trunk for a few hours, busting knuckles and contorting myself to get everything installed I guess I must have been spent. I could have sworn everything was correctly in phase (even after triple checking) but I guess it happens to the best of us sometimes. Thanks again guys!


----------



## Lanson

Oh I've been there before. Don't beat yourself up on phase. It could be electrically in phase while acoustically being out of phase.

BTW since you don't have a mic, you can wing it by dl'ing an app for your phone, like the JBL Tools app. It has an exceptionally good RTA for free. My idea here is you can ballpark the SPL and make sure you don't have a big response hole that the MS-8 tried too hard to fill. Example, I've had an MS-8 build where my midbass response was nowhere what I thought it was, and I crossed too low (80hz.) The end result is the sub boosted too high, and sounded like poop. Fix was to cross at 85hz and loosen the slope. Changing slope can help sometimes, but always start at 24dB/oct (IMO.)

Also, the MS-8 does not auto-calculate and adjust for that very bottom end, it just lets the equipment you have do its own thing. Therefore, it could be over-boosted relative to the EQ'd output the MS-8 has adjusted. The cure here is to get into that 31 band EQ and start dropping a few dB in the very low end, if its done that. Also on EVERY MS-8 build I boost the 63-80 range a bit since the MS-8 doesn't focus a lot on the midbass, but I enjoy that myself. The 31-bander can do a lot.



TheTodd said:


> Thanks for the help guys! First... Yes, I'm using inputs 1&2. At first I thought you saved my butt... I thought maybe I used inputs 1&5 accidentally (5 being below one) but this was not the case.
> 
> Second, I am using both outputs 5&6 for sub duty and both inputs on the amp.
> 
> Third, I should have mentioned my crossover points currently (sorry, I was typing AND trying to watch Walking Dead at the same time... not easy to do). Sub is 20-80, woofers are 80-400 and mid/tweets are 400-20K.
> 
> I don't have a mic OR software so those options are out for me... I also skipped the head unit calibration (mostly out of need) but I was trying to cover all my bases when it turned out poopy on the first go-round.
> 
> I attempted a quick and dirty phase check on my way to work this morning. It sounded like my right woofer was out so I switched it and things started to come back to life.  After running the sweeps in the parking lot (and many strange looks from coworkers while wearing "old-school headphones" things sound much better... except for the sub... still WAY too loud. I'll have to play with the gain setting over my lunch break as it's difficult to access the way my new rack is set up. I think I'm on the right track now though!!
> 
> I knew it was user error of some kind, but after being bent over backwards in a trunk for a few hours, busting knuckles and contorting myself to get everything installed I guess I must have been spent. I could have sworn everything was correctly in phase (even after triple checking) but I guess it happens to the best of us sometimes. Thanks again guys!


----------



## TheTodd

Ok... I've GOT to be doing something wrong. 

I bumped up the gain on my sub channel then back down after measurements... still VERY overbearing. I pretty much wasted my entire lunchbreak adjusting, measuring, adjusting, measuring. Same result EVERY time. I have checked all phases and everything seems to be good there. I played with the EQ some but didn't really like where that took me right now, so I'd rather get this thing close THEN EQ. Honestly, right now, I rather prefer my OEM (for now) Bose system in my 96 Vette. And that's pretty bad.

I'm still siding on user error here, but I'm not really even looking forward to my 1/2hr each way commute right now. I'd rather just rip it out and go back to what I had before. I really want to like this unit, but frustration is getting the best of me right now.


----------



## FordEscape

TheTodd said:


> ....My pre-MS8 system consisted of the same Pioneer AVH-4400 running to a JL HD900/5. Front channels running a PPI 3-way set running passive from 80 and up, rear channels unused, and the sub channel running a PPI 15" mounted IB from 80 down....
> 
> Now, the front output of the Pioneer goes into the Input 1 of the MS8. Channels 1&2 out go to the front channels on the JL which power the mids/tweets running passive (mids in top of dash & tweets in sails). 3&4 outputs run to the rear channels of the JL which powers the midbasses in the doors. 5&6 run to the sub input on the JL. ....


OK, maybe _ensure_ the following .....

_*Pre-MS8 *_you used front AVH Front out _and_ AVH Sub out. *With MS8 *you use AVH Front out only. That's fine if you are _certain_ that the AVH Front out is _full spectrum_.

*??* Are you *certain* that your AVH Front out is configured (in your AVH) to deliver full spectrum *including the sub frequency range* ??

If not *certain*, I'd go ahead and feed the AVH Sub out to MS8 *#7* and/or *#8* inputs. Note that sub inputs MUST be on *7* and/or *8* MS8 inputs (see MS8 Manual, page 9, second paragraph). Re-run MS8 setup & calibration to reflect the additional inputs and see if things are better.

IF MS8 _thinks_ it's getting a sub-frequency input (based on your input /output setup) but it _actually_ isn't, that can cause all sorts of grief as MS8 _tries_ to find and reproduce that missing sub-spectrum during acoustic calibration.


----------



## TheTodd

FordEscape said:


> *??* Are you *certain* that your AVH Front out is configured (in your AVH) to deliver full spectrum *including the sub frequency range* ??


I am certain that the front output on my headunit is in fact full range - including sub-range. No crossovers are on (on the headunit) and the 13-band EQ is set to flat.

I will try your idea of using the sub input this evening after I get off work. I just can't help but think that it _shouldn't_ be this difficult. I'm not a know everything audio guy, but I've been doing this long enough that I'm not a total idiot with this stuff either. It's probably not helping that I've got one heckuva headache today and am having a hard time doing my normal job let alone trying to figure this stuff out.


----------



## FordEscape

TheTodd said:


> I am certain that the front output on my headunit is in fact full range - including sub-range. No crossovers are on (on the headunit) and the 13-band EQ is set to flat.
> 
> I will try your idea of using the sub input this evening after I get off work. I just can't help but think that it _shouldn't_ be this difficult. I'm not a know everything audio guy, but I've been doing this long enough that I'm not a total idiot with this stuff either. It's probably not helping that I've got one heckuva headache today and am having a hard time doing my normal job let alone trying to figure this stuff out.


Certainly didn't mean to imply you're any kind of idiot. I'm not familiar with the AVH so just thought it worth asking given the mystery and frustration. 

Since you're certain that the front out is full spectrum there's no reason that adding the sub out to the MS8 input should make any difference - your front out alone should do the job (that's my setup), the problem must be elsewhere.


----------



## Lanson

Also make sure NO features are turned on (right now) on the Pioneer, like ASR or anything that makes the signal not flat. 

You can attenuate too much bottom end (the part the MS-8 doesn't calibrate) by EQ'ing that part down. It would help if you DL'd that JBL tools app. You can use the secret menu (left a second and then right a second on the MS-8 remote), but beware it is full-range without crossovers, so you want to make sure to do this only with a system not relying on the active crossovers on the tweeters. Your setup should suffice.

Also, if you listen to the system at full-defeat and it sounds really bad (not including the lack of processing, I mean if something is way over-boosted) there's probably a problem with the gear itself.

Example, are you certain your PPI 3-way setup is set to do a bi-amp like you're mentioning? I know the old PPI set could do it, but the new one can't. Examples like that.


----------



## TheTodd

FordEscape said:


> Certainly didn't mean to imply you're any kind of idiot. I'm not familiar with the AVH so just thought it worth asking given the mystery and frustration.


I didn't mean to make it sound like you implied that... I just wanted to kind of mention that I have more than a decent understanding of what I'm doing. I appreciate the help.

Not sure why it's not letting me multi-quote but...

fourthmeal... It's not that it sounds really bad at full-defeat but it sounds nowhere near as "full" as it did all passive & before adding the MS-8. With full-defeat it sounds ok (not great) but then I have to boost the sub level all the way up to get it to blend. Processing on, sub all the way down, it still sounds like it wants to tear itself out of the car. No sound-altering features are active. I actually don't like using those anyway. I pretty much rely on crossovers and EQ from headunits. I'll try downloading that app tonight. If not, I remember having downloaded the Audio Control app before which had SPL & RTA functions. Either way, I'll get something to help out. I'll try to do a more thorough phase check (although I'm confident I'm good there) and level matching.


----------



## Lanson

The fullness feeling, I know what you mean. I've picked up on how the MS-8 works, and I've realized what it does is hides that "thump" from the doors. But in the end, both through measurements and through time behind the wheel, it is accurate to its target curve and it is a smooth sound. But if you need to add some thump, do so. Just kick up the correct bands in the EQ. 

Now the issue with the sub, something is wrong here. It should be strong, but not falling apart. And this is what bothers me, something is happening here. I'd like to see response curves from the sub only, without calibration, if I were trying to fix this.

If you need to invest in some sort of measuring device (sub $100) and software (free mostly) with a laptop, it may be worth it. I think someone was selling their Umik in the classifieds, that with REW is what I use and it is EXTREMELY revealing to learn what's going on. 



TheTodd said:


> I didn't mean to make it sound like you implied that... I just wanted to kind of mention that I have more than a decent understanding of what I'm doing. I appreciate the help.
> 
> Not sure why it's not letting me multi-quote but...
> 
> fourthmeal... It's not that it sounds really bad at full-defeat but it sounds nowhere near as "full" as it did all passive & before adding the MS-8. With full-defeat it sounds ok (not great) but then I have to boost the sub level all the way up to get it to blend. Processing on, sub all the way down, it still sounds like it wants to tear itself out of the car. No sound-altering features are active. I actually don't like using those anyway. I pretty much rely on crossovers and EQ from headunits. I'll try downloading that app tonight. If not, I remember having downloaded the Audio Control app before which had SPL & RTA functions. Either way, I'll get something to help out. I'll try to do a more thorough phase check (although I'm confident I'm good there) and level matching.


----------



## TheTodd

Despite my really bad headache, I just spent the last hour level-matching and phase testing all speakers. Full-defeat it now sounds pretty darn close to what I had before, especially after tweaking the EQ a bit. Still dealing with that darn sub issue, though. But I feel like I'm making progress... Baby steps... But progress.


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## elmatth1

I'm still trying to get some of my MS-8 bugs worked out myself. However, I had the same issue with the sub being overbearing and no midbass respose. What I ended up figuring out was that my sub is in a small sealed box which created a huge spike in the 80hz region. I had the crossover set at different points between 80hz to 100hz and each time I ran the calibration the MS-8 tried to tame that peak and caused all sorts of problems. I dropped the sub crossover to 65hz and it fixed the problem. Of course, I am running 7" midbass which don't seem to have a problem reaching down to 65hz. Just a thought if you're also running a small sealed sub enclosure.

edit: Just saw that you're running IB sub setup. However, if there is a huge spike near the crossover point, it could cause the same issues. Might consider dropping the sub crossover a bit and see if that helps.


----------



## TheTodd

I tried several different crossover points anywhere from 120 down to 40... same results.  It semed to kind of tame the sub a _little_ bit at lower crossover frequencies but then the mids and highs sounded REALLY muffled... no sparkle whatsoever (and that's what I love the most of these PPI AMT tweeters).

Just thought of something this morning on my way to work... I got the unit used and the previous owner had an extension cable for the mic flex-loomed with the display cable (not sure if the unit originally came with that or not). I seperated the two cables, ran my display cable to the front, but left the extension poking out just under the driver's side rear seat to make accessing it easier from the driver's seat (small 2-oor coupe). FYI - the unit itself is in the trunk.

_COULD_ that extension cable be messing with the mic calibration? There's plenty of wire attatched to the mic itself, so I think over lunch today I'm going to try to plug that directly into the unit and see if that makes a difference.


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## Lanson

Dude the ppi 3 way set... not sure you can bi amp it like that


----------



## TheTodd

fourthmeal said:


> Dude the ppi 3 way set... not sure you can bi amp it like that


Can I ask why not? I'm still using the passive crossover for the mids/tweets running off the front outputs of the amp and the woofers directly off the rear outputs of the amp, actively crossed using the MS-8 (not utilizing the passive crossovers at all).

Do you think THAT is causing an issue? I guess I could _try_ to run everything passive again to test, but the headaches alone to just rewire THAT don't seem worth it to me. Honestly, at that point I'd rather just sell all this stuff off, get a 5ch amp that has bandpassing capabilities on 2 channels (the JL does not) and run it all from the headunit without a processor.


----------



## Lanson

TheTodd said:


> Can I ask why not? I'm still using the passive crossover for the mids/tweets running off the front outputs of the amp and the woofers directly off the rear outputs of the amp, actively crossed using the MS-8 (not utilizing the passive crossovers at all).
> 
> Do you think THAT is causing an issue? I guess I could _try_ to run everything passive again to test, but the headaches alone to just rewire THAT don't seem worth it to me. Honestly, at that point I'd rather just sell all this stuff off, get a 5ch amp that has bandpassing capabilities on 2 channels (the JL does not) and run it all from the headunit without a processor.


As soon as you said AMT, I began to worry. I could be wrong, but the "new" PPI set you have was not supposed to be wired like you are doing. I asked this question in a thread a while back, and was told that, no, unlike the previous version of PPI and Soundstream 3-ways which Grizz invented, these did not have provisions for 2-way + midbass. 

So correct me if I'm wrong, you are actually wiring to the crossovers, and then you just didn't connect the midbass? But the crossover doesn't have jumpers for this mode. I've not read the manual for this model, just the previous model. I don't know the results you'll get when you do this, but I've built passive crossovers before. One item relies on the other to function. If, for instance, I disconnected a tweeter from my passive crossover, its possible for my amp to see a null in the ohm load, and cause damage. You are usually supposed to keep a passive crossover fully connected unless you know the circuitry is made to do what you're thinking. Is that a problem with your build? Not sure, it just raised a red flag when you said AMT.

edit: and in glorious Epsilon fashion, their website doesn't even have a manual to the "new" version. Only the old one Grizz made, complete with IASCA judging info, bi-amp info, etc.


----------



## TheTodd

fourthmeal said:


> So correct me if I'm wrong, you are actually wiring to the crossovers, and then you just didn't connect the midbass?/QUOTE]
> 
> You are correct. So maybe this _is_ what's causing my issue. The manual for the components is very lacking as far as info. I will look throught it tonight to see if it mentions anything. I'm pretty sure it doesn't though because I was looking to set my system up like this for a while and I would've read that when I first got them... Yes, I am one of those guys that reads the whole manual of everything I buy no matter how basic the item.
> 
> *sigh*


----------



## Lanson

TheTodd said:


> fourthmeal said:
> 
> 
> 
> So correct me if I'm wrong, you are actually wiring to the crossovers, and then you just didn't connect the midbass?/QUOTE]
> 
> You are correct. So maybe this _is_ what's causing my issue. The manual for the components is very lacking as far as info. I will look throught it tonight to see if it mentions anything. I'm pretty sure it doesn't though because I was looking to set my system up like this for a while and I would've read that when I first got them... Yes, I am one of those guys that reads the whole manual of everything I buy no matter how basic the item.
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> 
> 
> I could be wrong too, but most passive crossovers demand you connect everything before using, or you "void the warranty". Mostly I'm concerned for the amp, which, at a certain frequency, could see an infinitely small ohm load and blow up trying to drive it. But that's just one possibility. I could also be way off. The issue I think is that PPI as a company doesn't say so in the manual. At least I don't think they do. Its almost like the writing dept. just threw out a generic manual and then quit.
Click to expand...


----------



## FordEscape

fourthmeal said:


> So correct me if I'm wrong, you are actually wiring to the crossovers, and then you just didn't connect the midbass?





TheTodd said:


> You are correct. So maybe this _is_ what's causing my issue....
> *sigh*


I know you're frustrated and indicated you may abandon the MS8 due to the re-wiring hassles associated with changing the XO configuration, but if you go through with that hassle, a tip for your consideration ....

If you take the opportunity to pull separate wires for all drivers to your amp-bay, and relocate the XO modules to near the DSP/amps, it'll give you total flexibility to easily change passive/active configurations now and in the future.

E.g. you could test a full-active 3-way front using the MS8 internal amp to drive your tweeters.

Maybe intuitively obvious to you but it took me awhile to realize the benefit of that simple XO module relocation notion (prompted in large part by early tutelage by fourthmeal and his urging that I use terminal strips at my amp-bay to facilitate easy re-configuration of things).


----------



## TheTodd

The crossovers are indeed mounted right next to the rack with the amp & MS and I have seperate runs of wire for each speaker. I also have barrier strips located very nearby the amp rack. The "hassle" part is the fact that all the wires are tucked under everything. To run even one additional wire means pulling the MS, then pulling the amp, then removing the actual rack. If I get a chance I can always post a pic but I don't want to cluter this thread up any more than I already have. I'll be updating my build thread in a few days at the most and you can always check it out there. Anywho...

Went out to my car over lunch, plugged the mic DIRECTLY into the MS-8, ran the sweeps... BAM!!!!!!  YESSSSSSSS!!!!!!!! I have a good bit of tuning to do with the EQ, but this is what I was looking for! Everything sems very well balanced, staging is OK but I was listening to not-so-great digital music on my thumb drive so that might have been a culprit in that. The sub is very balanced wih the rest of the system (even had to turn it up a smidge from centered). Like I said, though, I have some EQ-ing to do. It's not perfect... but it's close.

Sorry to clog up this thread with my issues, but maybe I just helped (or will help) someone else out. Thanks for your help guys! I will still investigate the possibility of NOT being able to run my speakers in this manner... Thanks!


----------



## Lanson

Yep and when wiring (initially or permanently), use barrier strips. Makes messing around easier.


----------



## KillerBox

TheTodd said:


> Went out to my car over lunch, plugged the mic DIRECTLY into the MS-8, ran the sweeps... BAM!!!!!!  YESSSSSSSS!!!!!!!! I have a good bit of tuning to do with the EQ, but this is what I was looking for! Everything sems very well balanced, staging is OK but I was listening to not-so-great digital music on my thumb drive so that might have been a culprit in that. The sub is very balanced wih the rest of the system (even had to turn it up a smidge from centered). Like I said, though, I have some EQ-ing to do. It's not perfect... but it's close.


I have yet to install my MS-8, so I wanted to see what was the problem and what was the solution?


----------



## TheTodd

Per fourthmeal's suggestion, I went and downloaded an app with an RTA (Audiocontrol to be exact). After doing a good bit of tuning with the 31-band over the last couple of days I can honestly say this is the best sounding system I've EVER had. I absolutely LOVE listening to this! I'm sure it's nowhere near some people's on here but I'm extremely happy and, honestly, that's all that matters. I'm still going to continue to tweak it here and there so I have one further question for any of you MS people...

I have my current settings saved into "Favorite 1". Am I able to rerun the sweeps and/or fiddle with the EQ without losing these current settings? I don't want to start from scratch again but would like to get back to where I am now if I stray to far with my fiddling.

As a side note, I've often used a disc that has a track with nothing but someone playing a drum kit for 3+ minutes. I've always been able to locate each individual drum but for the first time since owning this CD (26-ish years) I now realize it was recorded from the perspective of the drummer himself... my jaw just dropped. The kick drum was located just in front of my shifter, the snare just near my left leg, cymbals at all the mirrors, toms across the dash and floor toms in the passenger seat... AMAZING!! Sorry... I get wordy... Thanks again for everyone's help.


----------



## kaigoss69

^^^ And a few days ago you were ready to tear it all out, LOL.


----------



## DC/Hertz

I went through the same thing when I got mine a few years ago. I wanted to rip it out the first month it was installed.


----------



## t3sn4f2

TheTodd said:


> Per fourthmeal's suggestion, I went and downloaded an app with an RTA (Audiocontrol to be exact). After doing a good bit of tuning with the 31-band over the last couple of days I can honestly say this is the best sounding system I've EVER had. I absolutely LOVE listening to this! I'm sure it's nowhere near some people's on here but I'm extremely happy and, honestly, that's all that matters. I'm still going to continue to tweak it here and there so I have one further question for any of you MS people...
> 
> *I have my current settings saved into "Favorite 1". Am I able to rerun the sweeps and/or fiddle with the EQ without losing these current settings? I don't want to start from scratch again but would like to get back to where I am now if I stray to far with my fiddling.*
> 
> As a side note, I've often used a disc that has a track with nothing but someone playing a drum kit for 3+ minutes. I've always been able to locate each individual drum but for the first time since owning this CD (26-ish years) I now realize it was recorded from the perspective of the drummer himself... my jaw just dropped. The kick drum was located just in front of my shifter, the snare just near my left leg, cymbals at all the mirrors, toms across the dash and floor toms in the passenger seat... AMAZING!! Sorry... I get wordy... Thanks again for everyone's help.


No, you can't do anything that is not available in the menus after you calibrate. And there is no way to save or go back to a previous calibration.


----------



## Lanson

There we go!

When you have time and funds, grab a calibrated mic and crank up REW, and you'll be able to dial in the MS-8 even better. But for now GREAT job man!

You can buy me a beer sometime if you're in Vegas.



TheTodd said:


> Per fourthmeal's suggestion, I went and downloaded an app with an RTA (Audiocontrol to be exact). After doing a good bit of tuning with the 31-band over the last couple of days I can honestly say this is the best sounding system I've EVER had. I absolutely LOVE listening to this! I'm sure it's nowhere near some people's on here but I'm extremely happy and, honestly, that's all that matters. I'm still going to continue to tweak it here and there so I have one further question for any of you MS people...
> 
> I have my current settings saved into "Favorite 1". Am I able to rerun the sweeps and/or fiddle with the EQ without losing these current settings? I don't want to start from scratch again but would like to get back to where I am now if I stray to far with my fiddling.
> 
> As a side note, I've often used a disc that has a track with nothing but someone playing a drum kit for 3+ minutes. I've always been able to locate each individual drum but for the first time since owning this CD (26-ish years) I now realize it was recorded from the perspective of the drummer himself... my jaw just dropped. The kick drum was located just in front of my shifter, the snare just near my left leg, cymbals at all the mirrors, toms across the dash and floor toms in the passenger seat... AMAZING!! Sorry... I get wordy... Thanks again for everyone's help.


----------



## q2quest

*Loud POP every 15 minutes*

I've got the MS-8 installed in my 2017 GTI and not quite dialed in yet. It seems to be operating normally with the exception of a very loud pop through all the speakers about once every 15 minutes or so, but ONLY if the head unit (stock VW radio) is turned off. If I'm listening to music it never happens. The pop is loud enough to scare the crap out of you while going down the road. The amps and MS-8 are powered on anytime the ignition is on. Does anyone have an idea what could be causing this?

I don't mind buying a different MS-8 unit if that's the cause, but I'd hate to install a different one only to find out it's a VW/MS-8 interface problem. Thanks!


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: Loud POP every 15 minutes*



q2quest said:


> I've got the MS-8 installed in my 2017 GTI and not quite dialed in yet. It seems to be operating normally with the exception of a very loud pop through all the speakers about once every 15 minutes or so, but ONLY if the head unit (stock VW radio) is turned off. If I'm listening to music it never happens. The pop is loud enough to scare the crap out of you while going down the road. The amps and MS-8 are powered on anytime the ignition is on. Does anyone have an idea what could be causing this?
> 
> I don't mind buying a different MS-8 unit if that's the cause, but I'd hate to install a different one only to find out it's a VW/MS-8 interface problem. Thanks!


Try restoring to factor default in the menu. It helps with problems that don't seem to have anything to do with it. You'll loose your last calibration session of course.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1289446-post4974.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1473239-post6493.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1473239-post6493.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1473239-post6493.html


----------



## TheTodd

fourthmeal said:


> There we go!
> 
> When you have time and funds, grab a calibrated mic and crank up REW, and you'll be able to dial in the MS-8 even better. But for now GREAT job man!
> 
> You can buy me a beer sometime if you're in Vegas.


Thanks man! I've been getting a lot of seat time in and it really does keep getting better and better. 

Believe it or not I actually got married in Vegas. The wife and I were actually talking about heading back out there for our 15th anniversary (3yrs from now) assuming she doesn't leave me by then. If she does, I'll head out sooner and the first round is on me. :beerchug:


----------



## kevinduckworth

My 1st guess, would be there is a time delayed turn-off for the factory system's amp (internal to the radio or external, dunno). 
Not knowing VW electronics, you could query a good dealer teech to see if this delay can be defeates.
Alternate solution: Never turn the radio off, just put the volume all the way down instead.


----------



## q2quest

kevinduckworth said:


> My 1st guess, would be there is a time delayed turn-off for the factory system's amp (internal to the radio or external, dunno).
> Not knowing VW electronics, you could query a good dealer teech to see if this delay can be defeates.
> Alternate solution: Never turn the radio off, just put the volume all the way down instead.


Hmmm, that's a pretty good guess; something to look into. The problem is that it happens more than once. The loud pop is followed by another loud pop about every 15 minutes or so.

Assuming you are correct for a moment, why would the factory amp turning off make the system pop. The only thing connected to the MS-8 are the speaker leads. If the MS-8 were suddenly unplugged, would it make a loud pop like that?


----------



## litrekid

q2quest said:


> Hmmm, that's a pretty good guess; something to look into. The problem is that it happens more than once. The loud pop is followed by another loud pop about every 15 minutes or so.
> 
> Assuming you are correct for a moment, why would the factory amp turning off make the system pop. The only thing connected to the MS-8 are the speaker leads. If the MS-8 were suddenly unplugged, would it make a loud pop like that?


Do u still have the mic plugged in? I had problems with random pops and figured out it was from the mic. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## t3sn4f2

"Restore to factory default" to clear the memory stack completely. Per Andy's recommendation for anything wacky.


----------



## litrekid

I think I got things sorted out with my build finally. I could always get it to sound good but my sub and mids would always start to overdrive, for lack of a better term. Basically they would move and make sound but the amount of movement didn't match the output of sound. No matter how I set it up I couldn't get past vol 22 without the speakers wanting to jump out of their basket even though the input setup at 32. 

So I decided to quit asking and started thinking since nobody had ever tried to put the ms8 to this specific system. I had always had the radio equipment set flat and all the options off. So to make a long story short I thought I should try playing with the bass control on the radio. So while calibrating the inputs I brought down the the controls into the negative and with just the bass all the way down I actually got some range in vol for the input set up. Before it was just 32 or nothing. Now I have anywhere from 28-35. I calibrated and finally I can turn the volume up to 30 now without the speakers trying to rip themselves apart and finally the bass is tight and hard hitting and it looks like it barely trying. 

So that was it. I think the HK amplifier must run the subs at a funky high ohm load as one sub has 2 VC hooked up and the other just one. So when connected to the ms8 maybe it changes that and increases the voltage being sent. I really don't know if that's even plausible but that's what brought me to the idea to try it. Anyway hopefully that will help someone down the road and that's again to everyone for the help. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## Lanson

Most likely it was clipping way too soon, and when it clipped it really lost control of the drivers. 

Excellent that you found the root cause. In my "Beats" build, I had to leave the sub completely out of the inputs, and just let the MS-8 boost which it does pretty well (within reason.)



litrekid said:


> I think I got things sorted out with my build finally. I could always get it to sound good but my sub and mids would always start to overdrive, for lack of a better term. Basically they would move and make sound but the amount of movement didn't match the output of sound. No matter how I set it up I couldn't get past vol 22 without the speakers wanting to jump out of their basket even though the input setup at 32.
> 
> So I decided to quit asking and started thinking since nobody had ever tried to put the ms8 to this specific system. I had always had the radio equipment set flat and all the options off. So to make a long story short I thought I should try playing with the bass control on the radio. So while calibrating the inputs I brought down the the controls into the negative and with just the bass all the way down I actually got some range in vol for the input set up. Before it was just 32 or nothing. Now I have anywhere from 28-35. I calibrated and finally I can turn the volume up to 30 now without the speakers trying to rip themselves apart and finally the bass is tight and hard hitting and it looks like it barely trying.
> 
> So that was it. I think the HK amplifier must run the subs at a funky high ohm load as one sub has 2 VC hooked up and the other just one. So when connected to the ms8 maybe it changes that and increases the voltage being sent. I really don't know if that's even plausible but that's what brought me to the idea to try it. Anyway hopefully that will help someone down the road and that's again to everyone for the help.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## q2quest

litrekid said:


> Do u still have the mic plugged in? I had problems with random pops and figured out it was from the mic.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P


The microphone is not plugged in, but I will try and reset the system as suggested. It pops about one minute after turning the head unit off and then pops every 15 minutes almost on the nose. If I turn the head unit back on the pops will not recur.


----------



## Lanson

*Re: Loud POP every 15 minutes*



q2quest said:


> I've got the MS-8 installed in my 2017 GTI and not quite dialed in yet. It seems to be operating normally with the exception of a very loud pop through all the speakers about once every 15 minutes or so, but ONLY if the head unit (stock VW radio) is turned off. If I'm listening to music it never happens. The pop is loud enough to scare the crap out of you while going down the road. The amps and MS-8 are powered on anytime the ignition is on. Does anyone have an idea what could be causing this?
> 
> I don't mind buying a different MS-8 unit if that's the cause, but I'd hate to install a different one only to find out it's a VW/MS-8 interface problem. Thanks!


Wait a second...this isn't an MS8 issue at all, going by what you're saying. The MS-8 is going to play whatever it is given if it is on. If the stock head unit is "off" but not really, as in maybe its pulsing something like a "wake up" signal to something down the stock chain, maybe that's it. I guess I would say, don't turn off the stock head unit, ever. There are lots and lots of cars that can't turn the head unit off, my Durango can't, my old Flex couldn't, and I'm fairly certain my new Colorado can't either. They are multi-function units now (tied to the car with CAN and other systems) so I suspect you should just leave it on. Just turn the volume down to nothing. 

My Durango w/ MS-8 randomly, weirdly and completely unexpectedly will pop when I shut down the truck and get out. But it does it so rarely (maybe 1 in 200 times), I don't know how to diagnose. I've got mine tied to the 12V cig lighter in the trunk area, which stays powered until the truck shuts down and a door is opened, typically. Its a TIPM/power management thing.


----------



## q2quest

The radio can definitely be turned off and I used to drive it that way all the time. There's a nice analog clock that appears on the screen when the radio is off and I'd like the option to see that clock from time to time. But, I do agree with you that it is likely not an MS-8 issue because how would the MS-8 know whether or not the radio was on? I also have the MS-8 turned on and off via the cig lighter power wire in the trunk area. It shuts off as soon as the ignition is off.


----------



## KillerBox

Does anyone know how much amp draw the MS-8 draws when using RCAs in & RCAs out (not using the internal amp to power any speakers)? 

Can it be ran on an 10 amp fuse?


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Long time ago I remember reading it was about 1amp total

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## q2quest

*Super loud jet engine noise*

While doing a re-calibration I suddenly got what I think was the jet engine noise I've read about. It was so loud I don't know how my speakers or my ears survived it. Nothing I did made the volume decrease. I had to turn the ignition off. Since then, I grabbed some ear plugs and have attempted to reset the system, both by selecting "restore to factory defaults" from the menu and by pressing the reset button on the MS-8 unit itself. But, as soon as it boots back up the noise comes right back. How can I reset the system? Thanks.

Paul


----------



## glockcoma

*Re: Super loud jet engine noise*



q2quest said:


> While doing a re-calibration I suddenly got what I think was the jet engine noise I've read about. It was so loud I don't know how my speakers or my ears survived it. Nothing I did made the volume decrease. I had to turn the ignition off. Since then, I grabbed some ear plugs and have attempted to reset the system, both by selecting "restore to factory defaults" from the menu and by pressing the reset button on the remote itself, but as soon as it boots back up the noise comes right back. How can I reset the system? Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Paul




I think that's from having the headset plugged in after calibration. 
I had that happen once, now I always remove the headset immediately after it's finished calibrating


----------



## glockcoma

There is a reset button also on the actual ms8


----------



## q2quest

Sorry, I meant to say that I pressed the reset button on the "unit" itself. Thanks, though.


----------



## t3sn4f2

q2quest said:


> Sorry, I meant to say that I pressed the reset button on the "unit" itself. Thanks, though.


I was about to agree with Fourthmeal, after having missed the part about you getting pops only with the head unit off. But now this and it not going away after resetting and restoring...........hhhhmmmm who knows what's wrong. If the mic is unplugged, then try leaving it everything unplugged on it till tomorrow and see. Other than that I have no idea.


----------



## Lanson

q2quest said:


> The radio can definitely be turned off and I used to drive it that way all the time. There's a nice analog clock that appears on the screen when the radio is off and I'd like the option to see that clock from time to time. But, I do agree with you that it is likely not an MS-8 issue because how would the MS-8 know whether or not the radio was on? I also have the MS-8 turned on and off via the cig lighter power wire in the trunk area. It shuts off as soon as the ignition is off.


You could try this: Disconnect the inputs and run an RCA in off the aux. That way the car is in no-way connected. If the pops still occur, its the MS-8. If not, its the car and you're going to have to either leave the head unit on, OR turn off the MS-8 with the head unit turned off, perhaps with a manual override switch.


----------



## q2quest

fourthmeal said:


> You could try this: Disconnect the inputs and run an RCA in off the aux. That way the car is in no-way connected. If the pops still occur, its the MS-8.  If not, its the car and you're going to have to either leave the head unit on, OR turn off the MS-8 with the head unit turned off, perhaps with a manual override switch.


I haven't tried the AUX, but I did unplug the input connecter (at the MS-8) with all of the speaker wires coming in from the amp and ran the experiment again and there was no pop. The source of the pop must be a weird signal coming from the amp. Thanks for the help!


----------



## Lanson

q2quest said:


> I haven't tried the AUX, but I did unplug the input connecter (at the MS-8) with all of the speaker wires coming in from the amp and ran the experiment again and there was no pop. The source of the pop must be a weird signal coming from the amp. Thanks for the help!


So one way you could try and resolve this would be to simply install a kill-switch for the MS-8 to turn off when the head unit turns off. Not easy to do with CAN-based wiring, so I'd recommend a manual one. Just wire one in-line with the remote-in, and you should be good.


----------



## estens

Unfortunatly I am having some issues with my beloved ms8.

Lets start from the beginning: shortly after installing my ms8 I broke my amplifier, a Soundstream HRU.4.
I thought I destroyed it by setting the input sensitivity on it wrong.
Shipped the amp of for repairs, the serviceman changed 4 feed resisors and 4clip leds.

When I got it back I reinstalled it and everything worked fine for a while, then all of a sudden the amp stopped playing and starting smelling. 
And a feed resistor is loose inside the amp, just like last time.

Got another amplifier and hooked it up, and that one goes straight to protect when the rca's from the ms8 is connected to it. 
It plays fine with another source.
Not sure if it sulposed to be like this, but both the outer ring and the prong in the middle of the rca from the ms8 is ground..

Anyone have a idea of what is going on? I am really frustrated at this point and appreciate any help!


----------



## Lanson

estens said:


> Unfortunatly I am having some issues with my beloved ms8.
> 
> Lets start from the beginning: shortly after installing my ms8 I broke my amplifier, a Soundstream HRU.4.
> I thought I destroyed it by setting the input sensitivity on it wrong.
> Shipped the amp of for repairs, the serviceman changed 4 feed resisors and 4clip leds.
> 
> When I got it back I reinstalled it and everything worked fine for a while, then all of a sudden the amp stopped playing and starting smelling.
> And a feed resistor is loose inside the amp, just like last time.
> 
> Got another amplifier and hooked it up, and that one goes straight to protect when the rca's from the ms8 is connected to it.
> It plays fine with another source.
> Not sure if it sulposed to be like this, but both the outer ring and the prong in the middle of the rca from the ms8 is ground..
> 
> Anyone have a idea of what is going on? I am really frustrated at this point and appreciate any help!


MS-8 sounds like it has damaged RCA outputs.


----------



## estens

fourthmeal said:


> MS-8 sounds like it has damaged RCA outputs.


Yeah, I think so too. But what could have happened? And would it be posible to repair it? Other then this problem the unit works as it should and is almost mint.


----------



## t3sn4f2

estens said:


> Yeah, I think so too. But what could have happened? And would it be posible to repair it? Other then this problem the unit works as it should and is almost mint.


Andy mentioned once that he wishes they would have used beefier rca connectors because the plastic mounts that hold the lead can break if pressured too much. And the back of the mounts has the center and outer pin strips fairly close to each other. So it could be the mount cracked and the strips are touching each other. Or who knows.....

I would take the cover off and have a look. It fairly straight forward. 7 screws on the bottom. 2 on each side and 3 hidden under the rubber feet toward the center that screw onto the heat sinks. Then just lift, you'll be able to see the RCA blocks clearly.

Edit:









http://www.caraudioforumz.com/attachments/general-sq-15/13104d1320119741-jbl-ms-8-review-jbl-ms8-broken-rca1sml.jpg










http://www.caraudioforumz.com/attachments/general-sq-15/13103d1320119741-jbl-ms-8-review-jbl-ms8-pcbsml.jpg


----------



## estens

t3sn4f2 said:


> Andy mentioned once that he wishes they would have used beefier rca connectors because the plastic mounts that hold the lead can break if pressured too much. And the back of the mounts has the center and outer pin strips fairly close to each other. So it could be the mount cracked and the strips are touching each other. Or who knows.....
> 
> I would take the cover off and have a look. It fairly straight forward. 7 screws on the bottom. 2 on each side and 3 hidden under the rubber feet toward the center that screw onto the heat sinks. Then just lift, you'll be able to see the RCA blocks clearly.


Thank you for your input 

I removed the ms8 from the car yesterday and took the cover off, rca connectors was intact.

Figured I should try it one more time before shipping it out to have someone have a look at it, so I hooked it back up in the car and reset it.

I don't know why but now it is working perfect again


----------



## Flyboy

So looking for a little help. I just bought a used MS8 off someone here on DIYMA. I knew it didn't come with the setup cd but no problem, I'll just burn one from online, right? Well I started that process today and the only thing my computer will do with the file turns it into a 47 second track of useless noise. Now a little back history, computers don't like me and because of that history the feeling is usually mutual so this more than likely has something to do with me. 

Guess I'm looking for any help with the process or in the end if someone would be so kind as to rip a new cd off one the already have It would be most appreciated.


----------



## glockcoma

Flyboy said:


> So looking for a little help. I just bought a used MS8 off someone here on DIYMA. I knew it didn't come with the setup cd but no problem, I'll just burn one from online, right? Well I started that process today and the only thing my computer will do with the file turns it into a 47 second track of useless noise. Now a little back history, computers don't like me and because of that history the feeling is usually mutual so this more than likely has something to do with me.
> 
> 
> 
> Guess I'm looking for any help with the process or in the end if someone would be so kind as to rip a new cd off one the already have It would be most appreciated.




Are you using the factory head unit? 
If not you can skip the disc calibration.


----------



## Flyboy

I am not for now but I'm pretty sure I will be at some point in the future. I'm still not completely up on the process for setup without the CD. Is it integral to the MS-8 itself? Done during the on screen setup?


----------



## KillerBox

I copied the JBL MS-8 setup disk in .wav format as soon as I got it. It is roughly 38 mins of popping type of noise. Since I still haven't installed mine, I don't know exactly what this does.

I can upload to my google drive, if you want to download a copy?


----------



## glockcoma

Flyboy said:


> I am not for now but I'm pretty sure I will be at some point in the future. I'm still not completely up on the process for setup without the CD. Is it integral to the MS-8 itself? Done during the on screen setup?




If your using an aftermarket hu on the first screen where it tells you to 
Enter the cd, just push skip input setup.


----------



## Flyboy

glockcoma said:


> If your using an aftermarket hu on the first screen where it tells you to
> Enter the cd, just push skip input setup.


Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Lanson

Guys, no big deal. Just DL this

http://ms8-eu.jbl.com/installation....t_resources/jbl-ms8/MLS Setup Track Small.wav

Yeah and its about 40 seconds of noise. Weird noise too. But it means something to the MS-8. Kinda sounds like the noise you'd expect an epic dubstep song to begin with.


----------



## Flyboy

fourthmeal said:


> Guys, no big deal. Just DL this
> 
> http://ms8-eu.jbl.com/installation....t_resources/jbl-ms8/MLS Setup Track Small.wav
> 
> Yeah and its about 40 seconds of noise. Weird noise too. But it means something to the MS-8. Kinda sounds like the noise you'd expect an epic dubstep song to begin with.


Very cool, If that's the case I'm getting the right download. I was just confused I guess as I've watched a number of videos of people setting it up and hadn't come across that set of staticy noise before. I was expecting more of the tonal sweeps that i guess come later in the setup.


----------



## Lanson

Flyboy said:


> Very cool, If that's the case I'm getting the right download. I was just confused I guess as I've watched a number of videos of people setting it up and hadn't come across that set of staticy noise before. I was expecting more of the tonal sweeps that i guess come later in the setup.


Yes, the MS-8 will make quick beeps and sweeps on its own, this is just for head unit summation and flattening (unnecessary if you're using an aftermarket deck typically.)


----------



## Flyboy

fourthmeal said:


> Yes, the MS-8 will make quick beeps and sweeps on its own, this is just for head unit summation and flattening (unnecessary if you're using an aftermarket deck typically.)


Thanks


----------



## dengland

​


Flyboy said:


> Very cool, If that's the case I'm getting the right download. I was just confused I guess as I've watched a number of videos of people setting it up and hadn't come across that set of staticy noise before. I was expecting more of the tonal sweeps that i guess come later in the setup.


I will add that MS-8 mutes the output when it is doing the calibration (De-equalization) with the HU.


----------



## Flyboy

dengland said:


> ​
> I will add that MS-8 mutes the output when it is doing the calibration (De-equalization) with the HU.



Just read that. Getting excited. Been years since I had decent sound.


----------



## q2quest

Just wanted to give an update on my situation. The jet engine noise in my unit would not go away no matter how many resets were done or how much time passed. It appears to be fried. It did manage to blow my right tweeter in the process. I had to buy a used MS-8 on eBay. In the meantime, the loud "pop" that was occurring when the radio was off was solved by recoding the factory radio to activate the internal speaker leads and turn off the factory Fender amp. I then ran just left and right full range into the MS-8 instead of the five channels I was forced to use when using speaker leads off the Fender amp. The MS-8 seemed to like this much better. Everything sounds better.

My only problem is that when I manually turn the subwoofer off via external bass knob the 6.5" Polk Audio speakers in the door sound like they are 4" drivers. The sound is crisp and clear, but it lacks fullness like other people have said and sounds a bit AM clock radio-ish. Can this likely be tweaked out with the EQ?

I really don't know what I'm doing.


----------



## glockcoma

Have you checked the polarity on the 6.5"?
What are your crossovers set at?


----------



## Lanson

Two things, get a mic and calibration software, and mic the system using the proper multi-measurement method. You don't know what to improve without measuring it. The MS-8 may be compensating for a hole in the response, for instance... we don't know.

The MS-8 that's trashed will probably make its cost up back in parts if you sell them. Heck, I bet even the outside frame could be salvaged, if it isn't too scratched, or if someone wanted to try a custom paint job. It sucks, but these things won't live forever. If I could figure out how to get steerable center out of Helix (maybe an add-on card could do it), I'd say upgrade to Helix as the V-Eight I have in my other ride is phenomenal. It is 10 channels but it can only derive a center and rear, not create it with Logic7 or PLII. Bummer, because the rest of it is flawless, and it sounds crystal clear.


----------



## q2quest

glockcoma said:


> Have you checked the polarity on the 6.5"?
> What are your crossovers set at?


I have triple checked the polarity on all the speakers and the cross over is set at 3500 for high pass and 80 low pass to sub.

I don't know how to measure the system and don't have access to a mic or software. I'll have to get help from someone, but to make matters worse, now I keep getting a message that says "Voltage too high, shutting down". I can't get the MS-8 to stay on at all. This is a first.


----------



## q2quest

Fourthmeal, I am a novice at this stuff, but I am willing to learn. Do you know of a decent guide for how to measure the system? Can I use an app for my iPhone? I do appreciate the help. Thank you!

Paul


----------



## TheTodd

q2quest said:


> Fourthmeal, I am a novice at this stuff, but I am willing to learn. Do you know of a decent guide for how to measure the system? Can I use an app for my iPhone? I do appreciate the help. Thank you!
> 
> Paul


I downloaded an app for my iPhone from Audio Control which was free and works very well (compared to having nothing). Honestly, after dealing with these same issues, don't just check to make sure the speakers are wired correctly as far as the phase. I had everything wired correctly but after the MS8 did its thing my driver's midbass was acoustically out of phase leading to very weak midbass. After switching that woofer I found the passenger mid/tweet were then out of phase with everything else leading to VERY thin sound. Seriously, just switch polarity, listen, repeat. After doing all that, I then fired up the pink noise & RTA app and went to work with the EQ. 

This is what I did... I tried to flatten the response as much as possible. If you drag your finger along the graph (on the AC app) you can "mark" each EQ band and adjust as necessary. Then I fired up a music track I know VERY well. I liked what I heard and was close so I grabbed a pen & paper and jotted all my EQ settings down. That way if I went way off I could get back to my "reference" that I knew was close. I kind of took my EQ and smoothed out the curve instead of having a jagged "skyline". Each time it got better I jotted down my new settings. Again, if I got a little too happy with the EQ I could always get back to my improved settings. 

I'm now happy to say that my car sounds WAY better than it ever has. The sound is nice and "full" with plenty of impact and the bass is all up front. My image isn't always dead-center but without individual L&R EQs it's about as good as it can get. Honestly, though, I'm not competing and I'm happy with how it sounds so... WIN! Sorry this got winded but hopefully it helps. Long story short... check yo phases!


----------



## q2quest

TheTodd said:


> I downloaded an app for my iPhone from Audio Control which was free and works very well (compared to having nothing). Honestly, after dealing with these same issues, don't just check to make sure the speakers are wired correctly as far as the phase. I had everything wired correctly but after the MS8 did its thing my driver's midbass was acoustically out of phase leading to very weak midbass. After switching that woofer I found the passenger mid/tweet were then out of phase with everything else leading to VERY thin sound. Seriously, just switch polarity, listen, repeat. After doing all that, I then fired up the pink noise & RTA app and went to work with the EQ.
> 
> This is what I did... I tried to flatten the response as much as possible. If you drag your finger along the graph (on the AC app) you can "mark" each EQ band and adjust as necessary. Then I fired up a music track I know VERY well. I liked what I heard and was close so I grabbed a pen & paper and jotted all my EQ settings down. That way if I went way off I could get back to my "reference" that I knew was close. I kind of took my EQ and smoothed out the curve instead of having a jagged "skyline". Each time it got better I jotted down my new settings. Again, if I got a little too happy with the EQ I could always get back to my improved settings.
> 
> I'm now happy to say that my car sounds WAY better than it ever has. The sound is nice and "full" with plenty of impact and the bass is all up front. My image isn't always dead-center but without individual L&R EQs it's about as good as it can get. Honestly, though, I'm not competing and I'm happy with how it sounds so... WIN! Sorry this got winded but hopefully it helps. Long story short... check yo phases!


So, do you suggest flipping the polarity on one of the mids without running another calibration to see if the sound improves? If it does would I or should I recalibrate the MS-8 after that?

Are you using the MS-8's 31 band equalizer to try and get the response flat as you stated above? Or are you somehow using the Audio Control app to make adjustments?


----------



## t3sn4f2

^

I wouldn't use the EQ as a tool to fix a problem, only to fine tune a good calibration to suit your taste better.

I suggest being meticulous about setting up the environment to give the ms-8 the best chance to calibrate properly. Make sure you're in a dead quiet place. At night, in a closed garage, with your windows closed. Sit still, don't move at all. If you hear a noise somewhere while it's calibrating, start over. 

I see you are using factory speakers and locations. Don't ask too much out of the door mid and sail tweeter. Try 100Hz lowpass and don't go below 3kHz on the tweeter. 24dB slopes all around. Set your sub amp gain so you can barely hear it compared to the midrange. Our hearing sensitivity drops dramatically the lower and higher your move in the audio range. So you might think its as loud as the mid but it might be ways louder actually. And the when calibrating set the ms-8 volume so you can barely hear the sub as well. That is another important reason to make sure you are calibrating in a very quiet place. If there is some background noise you will compensate by raising the volume in order to hear it. That could overload the ms-8 mics then. Once you get a good calibration then raise the sub gain back to the level you prefer.

It's also a good idea to do sound treatments on the door mid. Isolate the back wave from entering the cabin as best you can.

Are the speaker in your OE system of somewhat decent quality? If not it might be worth spending a little on some cheap DIY drivers. With ~$100 you could bring their quality level up to around the best you'll see in luxury cars approaching $60-80K. Dayton, Silver Flute just to name a few.


----------



## Lanson

q2quest said:


> Fourthmeal, I am a novice at this stuff, but I am willing to learn. Do you know of a decent guide for how to measure the system? Can I use an app for my iPhone? I do appreciate the help. Thank you!
> 
> Paul


I use REW, its free software for use with a calibrated mic, on a laptop. I'll defer to other experts on iOS software, most portable apps lack the resolution required to see what's really going on, IMO.

But whatever route you go, seeing the response can help you tailor it to your own personal liking, instead of the JBL house curve, which may be not ideal. I always like some extra punch in my midbass, followed with a more mellow sibilant range in the lower treble, and a slightly rising top end for a tiny bit more "air". 

From there, I adjust solely by ear, listening to my favorite EDM sets, mostly Matt Darey / Nocturnal episodes, Hook N Sling, Avicii, and Monstercat. The vocal range usually needs a bit of manual tweaking, as well as the low end and midbass, but everything else usually is on-point. I find the MS-8 does what it can within its own biquad tapping and gets things pretty smooth, but a few things usually could use some manual work in addition to personal taste adjustment. 

In addition to using a measuring software in this way, you can also use it to find a speaker's true response output, instead of guessing with crossovers. For instance, before running the MS-8's processing, you can run a full-range signal to each speaker and sweep them at a frequency range suitable (watch out for tweeters of course), and then measure the response. This can help you see if the woofers for instance can even dig down to 80hz cleanly. If they can't, you can adjust your crossovers up during the MS-8 cal process, so the MS-8 isn't trying to boost a hole it can't fill. That's just an example.


----------



## TheTodd

q2quest said:


> So, do you suggest flipping the polarity on one of the mids without running another calibration to see if the sound improves? If it does would I or should I recalibrate the MS-8 after that?
> 
> Are you using the MS-8's 31 band equalizer to try and get the response flat as you stated above? Or are you somehow using the Audio Control app to make adjustments?


First question... yes. Switch the polarity on one of the mids. If the sound improves you're on the right track. Listen for anything else that may seem off because now the acoustic phase of your other speakers may be off compared to the mids. As long as everything sounds good rerun the calibration if you want. You may not need to.

Second question... yes. I'm just using the app to measure the response (that's all it does anyway). I should also add that I actually used the "FFT" function on that app, not the actual "RTA" function. Slightly more detailed.

As stated above, the EQ is only going to allow you to fine-tune the sound, it won't fix "missing information" or cancellation due to phase issues. But also, like I said, once I fixed one phase issue (woofers) it then made my mid/tweeter combo out of phase acoustically with my woofers so you may have to change things around a bit until it sounds right. Hope this helped.


----------



## q2quest

Thanks guys. The front components are Polk Audio DB6501. They are not the most expensive, but I believe better than what VW installed. The doors have been dampened with Dynamat and I'm also using FAST rings. All calibrations are done in my garage at night when it is dead silent with my MS-8 volume at -47. I have a bass knob that I turn down by about 75% and during the sweeps it is very quiet. I'm happy with the bass from the sub. I don't think that's my issue. With the sub disconnected it should still sound good with the vocals not sounding tinny. 

BUT, first things first. I can listen to the stereo all day long with the car off, but within seconds of starting the car the display on the MS-8 says "Voltage too high, shutting down". The MS-8 is seeing 13.9 V with the car running and 12.8 V with just the ignition on. What the hell? Those are average, if not below average voltage levels. I'm beginning to think I'm not meant to have an MS-8.


----------



## Lanson

Yeah voltage too high is not a good problem to have. I don't have a fix for you on that, not sure what's up. 

If you need another solution, I can suggest Helix. Their DSP's are great. I'm using the V Eight and its a monster. No processed center channel though, only derived.



q2quest said:


> Thanks guys. The front components are Polk Audio DB6501. They are not the most expensive, but I believe better than what VW installed. The doors have been dampened with Dynamat and I'm also using FAST rings. All calibrations are done in my garage at night when it is dead silent with my MS-8 volume at -47. I have a bass knob that I turn down by about 75% and during the sweeps it is very quiet. I'm happy with the bass from the sub. I don't think that's my issue. With the sub disconnected it should still sound good with the vocals not sounding tinny.
> 
> BUT, first things first. I can listen to the stereo all day long with the car off, but within seconds of starting the car the display on the MS-8 says "Voltage too high, shutting down". The MS-8 is seeing 13.9 V with the car running and 12.8 V with just the ignition on. What the hell? Those are average, if not below average voltage levels. I'm beginning to think I'm not meant to have an MS-8.


----------



## KillerBox

q2quest said:


> I can listen to the stereo all day long with the car off, but within seconds of starting the car the display on the MS-8 says "Voltage too high, shutting down". The MS-8 is seeing 13.9 V with the car running and 12.8 V with just the ignition on. What the hell?


I can't help you with the MS-8 questions yet because mine isn't installed yet but, these might help you with your voltage problem. Power Conditioners Isolated Mini | Intervolt


----------



## q2quest

KillerBox said:


> I can't help you with the MS-8 questions yet because mine isn't installed yet but, these might help you with your voltage problem. Power Conditioners Isolated Mini | Intervolt


Thank you. That looks like exactly what I need. Unfortunately they look to be expensive and halfway around the world


----------



## KillerBox

q2quest said:


> Thank you. That looks like exactly what I need. Unfortunately they look to be expensive and halfway around the world


We buy from a dealer but, we need the ultra big ones. The smaller ones like you would need are for sell on Amazon & in stock in the USA.

Intervolt DC Power Conditioner

https://smile.amazon.com/interVOLT-...UTF8&qid=1490790161&sr=8-2&keywords=intervolt

Simple to use & install.


----------



## q2quest

KillerBox said:


> We buy from a dealer but, we need the ultra big ones. The smaller ones like you would need are for sell on Amazon & in stock in the USA.
> 
> Intervolt DC Power Conditioner
> 
> https://smile.amazon.com/interVOLT-...UTF8&qid=1490790161&sr=8-2&keywords=intervolt
> 
> Simple to use & install.


Thank you! Somehow I missed the link to Amazon before. If I can't get a diode to work then I'll be ordering that small piece.


----------



## Flyboy

Would someone confirm the wiring for hi input and output. I had to find a molex connector to make thoes work. From the looks of it the owners manual looks like it goes channel 1-8 left to right and please confirm that the positive (+) is on the top row and negative (-) is on the bottom row. Owners manual says they are labeled, and I'm sure they are, somewhere.

Thank in advance for the help


----------



## FordEscape

Flyboy said:


> Would someone confirm the wiring for hi input and output. I had to find a molex connector to make thoes work. From the looks of it the owners manual looks like it goes channel 1-8 left to right and please confirm that the positive (+) is on the top row and negative (-) is on the bottom row. Owners manual says they are labeled, and I'm sure they are, somewhere.


You are correct, viewing the back of either connector (what you see when plugged into the MS8).

FYI the labels are on sleeves around the wire ends on the original harness.

Hope that helps


----------



## q2quest

Flyboy said:


> Would someone confirm the wiring for hi input and output. I had to find a molex connector to make thoes work. From the looks of it the owners manual looks like it goes channel 1-8 left to right and please confirm that the positive (+) is on the top row and negative (-) is on the bottom row. Owners manual says they are labeled, and I'm sure they are, somewhere.
> 
> Thank in advance for the help


Yes, that is correct.


----------



## Lanson

...and my advice is, use a Euro barrier strip so you don't have to cut and solder that pigtail over and over.


----------



## Flyboy

fourthmeal said:


> ...and my advice is, use a Euro barrier strip so you don't have to cut and solder that pigtail over and over.



Already in the works. 

Thanks guys.


----------



## t3sn4f2

q2quest said:


> Thank you! Somehow I missed the link to Amazon before. If I can't get a diode to work then I'll be ordering that small piece.


You might also want to try doing a test run with some longer thinner power wires. The increased resistance might lower the voltage just enough to make the ms-8 happy. If that or the diode don't work and since you're running the components off the ms-8 amps (?) you might want make sure the current rating on the DC to DC converter is correct for your needs. I suggest giving yourself a little bit of leeway and getting a rating higher than you need since that performance of those power supplies is dictated by many variables like temperature and continuous load. 

Here's another converter sold by a PS company. The good thing about this one is that it is fully ground isolated, which helps potential noise issues. The interVolt doesn't appear to have that feature and is only "case isolated".

"In short, the SVS is a power conditioning device without the galvanic isolation. If you don’t require DC-DC isolation then the SVS is the cost effective solution for your application. The SVS is excellent value-for-money when the performance and specification is compared with similar products in the market."

Fully isolated 12V/12V 8A DC/DC regulator switchmode dc converter, 100 Watts continuous

And another higher quality much more expensive option.

Fully isolated 12 volt to 12 volt DC/DC fully isolated regulators and converters Heavy Duty industrial, marine and military grade voltage regulators (fully regulated) from 90Watts from PowerStream.


----------



## FordEscape

q2quest said:


> ....BUT, first things first. I can listen to the stereo all day long with the car off, but within seconds of starting the car the display on the MS-8 says "Voltage too high, shutting down". The MS-8 is seeing 13.9 V with the car running and 12.8 V with just the ignition on.....


I've been silently following your MS8 trials and tribulations including posts/ideas since you ID'd this voltage problem.

Don't mean to be a downer but IMHO it's time to step back and do a harsh reality check:
Yes, 13.9V is within the range of reasonable actual voltage for 'nominal 12V auto systems' and your MS8 should handle that with no problem.
If 13.9V is a valid number for what your MS8 is getting with engine running, and it responds by giving an overvoltage warning and shutting down, then there's most likely something wrong with the power input section (or its protective circuits) in your MS8.
Whatever that problem is, knowing it's bad now, what gives you any confidence that it's 'stable'? In other words, what gives you any confidence that it won't 'trip' at lower and lower actual input voltages over time (or even fail completely)?
IF the problem progresses, isn't it likely that any/all of the external voltage regulation 'patches' discussed to this point will eventually be for naught?
How often have you seen a solid-state device start to 'go south' and not, in fairly quick order, progress to worse and then failure?
Yes, all this is predicated on the voltage delivered to your MS8 being valid as measured (so I'd quadruple check that with multiple test instruments).

I know, the options for getting the _correct_ solution (a properly functioning MS8) may not be immediately attractive from a dollar standpoint (find someone to diagnose and actually fix your MS8 or abandon your second MS8 and try yet again to get a good unit).

But I've got to wonder if you aren't on a path of spending even more with some of these ~$100+ voltage regulation devices and then facing even more grief when your apparently already defective MS8 finally does crater completely?

Sorry for the 'tough love' but I just hate to see you head down a path of relatively expensive 'patches' that IMHO ignore the real problem and quite likely won't yield a reasonable expectation of long-term satisfaction.

All just for your consideration, all IMHO, I wish I had a happier comment but my from-afar assessment of reality prevents that, I truly do hope you can get to a point of real 'joy' with your system.


----------



## Flyboy

So I finally got everything hooked up and go to calibrate the system and all I'm getting is a "please wait." It went to the jbl screen once and froze there. It went to the initial setup page once and froze there as well. Other than the reset button or disconnecting all power, what are my other options? Best I can get out of it now is a please wait.


----------



## KillerBox

Flyboy said:


> So I finally got everything hooked up and go to calibrate the system and all I'm getting is a "please wait." It went to the jbl screen once and froze there. It went to the initial setup page once and froze there as well. Other than the reset button or disconnecting all power, what are my other options? Best I can get out of it now is a please wait.


I don't know this for sure but, I have read that the connection to the display not being fully in can cause this.


----------



## Flyboy

I messed with those connections quite a bit and still nothing. I haven't opened it up to see if it's a terminal that's broken loose from a circuit board


----------



## Flyboy

Ok, trying to trace this problem down I started off by ohming out the display cord. Could someone confirmed me that each contact on one end is connected to the respective contact on the other end. One of mine is not.


----------



## FordEscape

Flyboy said:


> Ok, trying to trace this problem down I started off by ohming out the display cord. Could someone confirmed me that each contact on one end is connected to the respective contact on the other end. One of mine is not.


For R=Remote end and M=MS8 end, working from the tip back ...

R tip = M tip
R ring 1 = M ring 1
R ring 2 = M ring 2
R ring 3 = M outer sleeve/collar (M being a different type of plug than the R plug)

Both my NIB MS8 'backup unit' and my Fluke happen to be handy


----------



## Flyboy

FordEscape said:


> For R=Remote end and M=MS8 end, working from the tip back ...
> 
> R tip = M tip
> R ring 1 = M ring 1
> R ring 2 = M ring 2
> R ring 3 = M outer sleeve/collar (M being a different type of plug than the R plug)
> 
> Both my NIB MS8 'backup unit' and my Fluke happen to be handy


Just to make sure I understand, R ring 1 has continuity to m ring 1? If so, that is most likely my problem. There is a nick in the cable that I opened up to check continuity to both connectors and the red wire, (what would be for ring 1) has no continuity to the ring 1 on the display side. I'm just going to bypass the connector and hard wire it to the display.


----------



## FordEscape

Flyboy said:


> Just to make sure I understand, R ring 1 has continuity to m ring 1?


correct


----------



## Flyboy

FordEscape said:


> correct



Thanks so much for checking that.


----------



## q2quest

Alright, I wired two diodes in series and now the MS-8 stays on. It is getting 12.5 volts with the car running and only about 11 volts with just the ignition on, but when I went to calibrate it again I have another problem...

When playing the MS-8 calibration CD, the display says "signal ok" "level ok" "balance left". WTF? This is the first time it has done this. If I fade the balance towards the right a little on my head unit it will read "ok", but the end result is too much sound coming from the left after calibration.

Oh, the humanity!


----------



## t3sn4f2

q2quest said:


> Alright, I wired two diodes in series and now the MS-8 stays on. It is getting 12.5 volts with the car running and only about 11 volts with just the ignition on, but when I went to calibrate it again I have another problem...
> 
> When playing the MS-8 calibration CD, the display says "signal ok" "level ok" "balance left". WTF? This is the first time it has done this. If I fade the balance towards the right a little on my head unit it will read "ok", but the end result is too much sound coming from the left after calibration.
> 
> Oh, the humanity!


I would try........










https://media.giphy.com/media/ktcUyw6mBlMVa/giphy.gif


----------



## q2quest

:laugh:

I know! It's insane how many problems I've had with this thing. The only reason I keep messing with it is because:

1. My system is already designed around it.
2. I have no idea how to tune anything.
3. It sounded amazing in my last car.

If/when I give up I'll pay someone to tune a Helix or something.


----------



## q2quest

FordEscape said:


> I've been silently following your MS8 trials and tribulations including posts/ideas since you ID'd this voltage problem.
> 
> Don't mean to be a downer but IMHO it's time to step back and do a harsh reality check:
> Yes, 13.9V is within the range of reasonable actual voltage for 'nominal 12V auto systems' and your MS8 should handle that with no problem.
> If 13.9V is a valid number for what your MS8 is getting with engine running, and it responds by giving an overvoltage warning and shutting down, then there's most likely something wrong with the power input section (or its protective circuits) in your MS8.
> Whatever that problem is, knowing it's bad now, what gives you any confidence that it's 'stable'? In other words, what gives you any confidence that it won't 'trip' at lower and lower actual input voltages over time (or even fail completely)?
> IF the problem progresses, isn't it likely that any/all of the external voltage regulation 'patches' discussed to this point will eventually be for naught?
> How often have you seen a solid-state device start to 'go south' and not, in fairly quick order, progress to worse and then failure?
> Yes, all this is predicated on the voltage delivered to your MS8 being valid as measured (so I'd quadruple check that with multiple test instruments).
> 
> I know, the options for getting the _correct_ solution (a properly functioning MS8) may not be immediately attractive from a dollar standpoint (find someone to diagnose and actually fix your MS8 or abandon your second MS8 and try yet again to get a good unit).
> 
> But I've got to wonder if you aren't on a path of spending even more with some of these ~$100+ voltage regulation devices and then facing even more grief when your apparently already defective MS8 finally does crater completely?
> 
> Sorry for the 'tough love' but I just hate to see you head down a path of relatively expensive 'patches' that IMHO ignore the real problem and quite likely won't yield a reasonable expectation of long-term satisfaction.
> 
> All just for your consideration, all IMHO, I wish I had a happier comment but my from-afar assessment of reality prevents that, I truly do hope you can get to a point of real 'joy' with your system.


I really appreciate this input and I think everything you said is absolutely 100% correct. I'm really, really torn between sending this unit back for a refund and buying something else or trying to make it work. At this very moment I was able to calibrate it and it is functioning with the inline diodes. Tomorrow I am getting help from a forum member here who tunes systems for a living. If it sounds amazing afterward I am going to roll the dice and keep it, knowing it is a ticking time bomb. I have this feeling that if it sounds great and I stop fiddling with it that it might hold up for a while. I also don't like the fact that it has beaten me. So I will press on for a little while longer. THANKS!

Paul


----------



## Flyboy

Quick update from my installation of a new to me MS-8. I've been driving my wife's old Civic for a few years now for 2 hours at a time commuting to a from work (luckily only once a week). Before I met here she had Best Buy put a CD player in the place of the factory tape deck and I never liked to job that had been done. The dash had a mark on it from trying to pry out the old unit, the display wouldn't dim at night and factory speakers sounded like, well, factory speakers. A buddy had some Kicker 6.5's KS's sitting around that he gave me so I threw those in. Much better but still without any ability to tune the sound it was harsh, fatiguing, and generally just flat. 

A few months ago I found this forum and got the bug going again from years ago and decided a good first step was a processor, but the cost and knowledge required meant most were out of reach, at least short term, so i picked up a used MS-8 from a member here. 

I had a problem show up after installation with the screen getting stuck at "please wait" and found that a number of people said it had to do with the connection between the main unit and the display. Sure enough one of the wires in the cord was not making it all the way from one end to the other. So today, I finally got around to soldering the display cord directly to the PC board in the display. Problem Solved. I wish it would have turned out nicer looking but that will have to be another day.

First Impressions. I've been missing this for a long time and reading many of the descriptors used by so many members here of flat, tinny, hollow sounding music I knew I was missing out on what it was actually supposed to sound.

Thats all the Civic will ever get as it will be replaced in about a year and no point spending more one things I cant easily transfer over to the next car.

I would like to thank those of you who helped me get this up and running and those of you that gave me the guts to pull apart the MS-8 and have the nerve to solder on it.


----------



## TheTodd

Anybody looking to buy an MS-8? I think I'm going to pull mine and go with a different processor. Nothing wrong with it... I just want to try my hand at manual tuning. It's complete, and I have everything including the setup CD, mic, manual, display, cables, box, etc.

Edit: It is now sold. Payment has been received. Thought I'd mention it in case someone sees this at a later date.


----------



## Lanson

TheTodd said:


> Anybody looking to buy an MS-8? I think I'm going to pull mine and go with a different processor. Nothing wrong with it... I just want to try my hand at manual tuning. It's complete, and I have everything including the setup CD, mic, manual, display, cables, box, etc.


That should sell quick. 

Go Helix, I'm just ****ing blown away at how badass mine is. Of course, skipping center channel!


----------



## TheTodd

I'm not sure what unit I'm going to go with yet. I've got a few in mind. I was looking at the MiniDSP 6x8 and I've got my eye on a PPI DCX-730 (with tuning software) for cheap. I've been scoping the Helix as well but I'm not sure I'm able to drop that much cash right now. Worth every penny I'm sure, but it's at the very top end of my budget. The PPI is cheap enough that I'm going to get it to play with it and if it doesn't trip my trigger, I'm not out a whole lot.


----------



## chuyler1

Let me know if you plan to sell the MS8, I may have a friend interested.

FWIW, I had a DCX-730 for a few years, bought here when they were on closeout. As you probably know the faceplate stopped working shortly thereafter. The software is decent. The flaw was low temperature operation. It would crackle and hiss below freezing until it warmed up. I switched to a RF360 (.1 or .2, it was older than the one they sell now). Never could get that tuned properly. Upgraded to the MS8 and never looked back. Sure, it isn't a perfect tune, but it does a better job than I ever could.


----------



## TheTodd

chuyler1 said:


> Let me know if you plan to sell the MS8, I may have a friend interested.
> 
> FWIW, I had a DCX-730 for a few years, bought here when they were on closeout. As you probably know the faceplate stopped working shortly thereafter. The software is decent. The flaw was low temperature operation. It would crackle and hiss below freezing until it warmed up. I switched to a RF360 (.1 or .2, it was older than the one they sell now). Never could get that tuned properly. Upgraded to the MS8 and never looked back. Sure, it isn't a perfect tune, but it does a better job than I ever could.


Yeah... I'll sell the MS8. PM me and we can take that discussion privately.

I did hear about the noise in colder weather and it IS going in my daily driver so I'll be interested to see how it fairs in another 7-8 months when it starts getting colder again. I'm getting the one listed in the classifieds now for what I feel is a good price. The faceplate doesn't work on that one either but I heard that was somewhat cumbersome anyway, and the one I'm getting has the software so... to me it's worth the risk to give it a shot. I know what you mean about the MS tune not being perfect. It sounds good and others (non-enthusiasts) that have heard my car think it sounds awesome, but unfortunately, like most of us here I'm trying to chase perfection. Maybe I'm making a mistake... only time will tell on that one.

I also found with the MS8, unlike most people, that every time I run the calibration it gives me a different tune/sound. I always manage to dial it in but I find it very odd that the auto-tune never sounds the same. My EQ settings when I'm done haven't been the same twice. And I always write my settings down as I make changes so I can always get back to my reference point if I get too out of control with my adjustments.


----------



## chuyler1

Yup, I hear ya. I keep thinking, oh I should lower my crossover point...but then i remember I have no idea what it is right now and the steps to change it are cumbersome....but there's no other all-in-one device that auto-tunes and gives you 8 20w channels and fits under your seat! I used to tell people, don't buy speakers, don't buy amps, just buy an MS8 and hook it up to your factory radio...call me if that doesn't solve all your needs.


----------



## Flyboy

Just wanted to post this in case anyone in the future is in need of the hi input or outputon the ms8. Ordered these from modDIY online and couldn't be happier with the quality. Even for parts that will be hidden I'm a stickler for making things look good and doing all my work in a "workman like manner." 

Took a decent amount of research to make sure exactly what connectors they were but for future reference they are molex mini fit jr.


----------



## litrekid

Wow, very nice. I'm sure that will come in handy for someone in the future. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P


----------



## Flyboy

So I have a quick question not necessarily dirictly related to the MS8 but it's where i will be making the adjustment.

I'm loving the sound and balance listening to my music (rock, metal, some smoother blues and classic) but the other day with the wife in the car I put on some of her music (read pop) and the lower frequensies were either over represented in the recording of its just to much for 4 6.5's to handle. 

The MS8 was put in this car for the time being until the cars replaced and I'm using it to learn the MS8 for easier application in the future. 

Anyway back to the question. In an attempt to fix this quickly I used the headunits HPF at 80 (slop unknown) and it helped for the most part. What HPF should I reprogram into the MS8 or whats a good starting point and what order should I start with. I will never have a sub in this car to pick up where I'm leaving off here so I'm trying to cheat and still have it sound good with my music but not feel as though I'll lose the speakers during hers.

Thanks.


----------



## litrekid

I have a question regarding something Andy mentioned in a post waaaaay back. It has to do with special audio gimmicks basically. One he mentioned was balanced line connection. The zapco AG amps I have on my front stage use balance line connection. Has anyone used these or similar with the ms8? Anyone know what kind of potential problems I could have using them? Here is a screenshot of the post.









Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Notoriouz

Hello all

This is my first post on diymobileaudio
Recently I purchased a Jbl MS-8 from Ebay so when it reaches me i found out that the display is not working and the display connector is not on the board. so i did some research on google and came to know that it can be fixed by soldering it permanently to board. i did the same but came up with no luck.
Without display i cant do anything 
can anyone tell me what should i do or how do i get it to work?
Any help will be appreciated.


----------



## FordEscape

For those fighting display cable issues, seeking to check continuity, rig alternative display cable options, etc ..... perhaps this will be of help


----------



## DC/Hertz

I think my issue is the cable itself. I had to make a pretty aggressive bend to clear the amp.
Hopefully after today I won't need the display ever again.


----------



## q2quest

I had to abandon my MS8 out of frustration. The unit itself got the infamous jet engine noise that never could be reset. I still have the malfunctioning MS-8, display, cable, microphones and CD if anyone needs any of these.

Paul


----------



## DC/Hertz

q2quest said:


> I had to abandon my MS8 out of frustration. The unit itself got the infamous jet engine noise that never could be reset. I still have the malfunctioning MS-8, display, cable, microphones and CD if anyone needs any of these.
> 
> Paul


I can use the cable if it's good. Shot me a pm with what you want for it.


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## litrekid

EUREKA!!!! 

I figured it out finally! I was able to squash 2 problems at once and I finally have the sound I have been looking for. 

First problem I was having is with the front stage. I could get it to sound pretty good but I always had issue with the right 6.5 not having the volume that the left had. After reading that Andy said balanced line inputs could cause issues I decided to run RCA to my zapco AG amps and everything came together perfectly after that so symbalink is definitely a no go for the ms8. 

Second problem was no bass. Running a idmax 15 in ib with a mosconi 300.2 and my truck with a 15 yr old kicker comp vr 12 in a jl stealth box sounded way better. I had tried almost every possible input selection I could think of and no matter what I struggled to get any bass. Now the factory HK system came with 2 10" subs. Knowing what I know about how the ms8 uses the inputs I always figured I should only need one sub input (even though it has 3 for the 2 subs). I got the idea to add a second sub input to the ms8 and boom goes the bass! I don't know why it worked but it worked and I finally know how an idmax should sound. I was almost ready to give up. 



Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Lanson

This is why I feel it is so important to augment an MS-8 install with a calibrated mic and measuring software. A sweep of the system would have shown a bass-weak bottom end and you could address that in your install. I've decided with the MS-8 you have to first make sure you are getting a full range signal to it. All is lost until then.


----------



## litrekid

fourthmeal said:


> This is why I feel it is so important to augment an MS-8 install with a calibrated mic and measuring software. A sweep of the system would have shown a bass-weak bottom end and you could address that in your install. I've decided with the MS-8 you have to first make sure you are getting a full range signal to it. All is lost until then.


I agree, now. ?. I just don't understand how I could not have a full spectrum. I'm not well versed on the details of how an audio system works but if I have a dual vc sub, should both be getting the same signal? In this case I had one vc wired in to the ms8 ( a + and - ). When I added the second is when I got the full signal. I might be showing just how ignorant I am but that's ok, as long as I learn. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Lanson

litrekid said:


> I agree, now. ?. I just don't understand how I could not have a full spectrum. I'm not well versed on the details of how an audio system works but if I have a dual vc sub, should both be getting the same signal? In this case I had one vc wired in to the ms8 ( a + and - ). When I added the second is when I got the full signal. I might be showing just how ignorant I am but that's ok, as long as I learn.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


And in the case of one of my MS-8 systems (thinking way back here), one of them needed the subwoofer input, one coil... and in another I actually lost output because the sub distortion exceeded the MS-8's tolerance and called it "noisy", etc. So experimentation and quick-change euro barrier strips are now the way I go about it.

Honestly...if Helix could update a steering algorithm into their software/firmware, we'd probably no longer have this thread. Maybe in the future...hell I'd pay extra for this as a plugin or something.


----------



## mitchyz250f

Wanted to ask a few questions about the MS8 software processing. 

Let's say the system is setup and tuned to include a center channel. If I were to lower the center channel volume to zero is what was being fed to the center now going to the mains or is it gone?

Also what happens when your turn of processing with a 5 channel system. Is it like multichannel with Audyssey or is something else happening?


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## litrekid

I believe if u turn off processing it's just straight through with crossovers. As for the center, I would think u would loose that signal to the center. It won't adjust in real time. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Notoriouz

FordEscape said:


> For those fighting display cable issues, seeking to check continuity, rig alternative display cable options, etc ..... perhaps this will be of help


thanks for your reply
can you tell me how i get these wire soldered on MS-8 board as i have already done with the soldering but with no luck. Still it doesn't get on. 
Can you send the pic of MS-8 board clearing the wires just like the same as you sent it for display.


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## KillerBox

How resourceful people on this board are, you would think that someone would make up a some of these display cables for sell?


----------



## FordEscape

Notoriouz said:


> .....
> can you tell me how i get these wire soldered on MS-8 board as i have already done with the soldering but with no luck. Still it doesn't get on.
> Can you send the pic of MS-8 board clearing the wires just like the same as you sent it for display.


I don't have an 'open' MS8 handy to take pics.

HOWEVER, the jack part number as listed in the MS-8 Service Manual is SJ-42524-SMT and this is the manufacturer link for that (discontinued) jack SJ-4252X-SMT Series | 4 Conductor, 2.5 mm SMT Audio Jack | 4 Conductor Jacks | Audio | Connectors | CUI Inc

If you look at the PDF datasheet and compare to your MS-8 PCB you should be able to figure out the board mounting assignments. Note that is a multi-layer PCB.

I don't recall reading here of anyone with damage/problem at the MS-8 end of the display connection, always at the display end. You do realize of course that your problem may be deeper than just the display connection, especially if the MS-8 main board has suffered abuse?

BTW, I don't have the site bookmarked but I found the MS-8 Service Manual online long ago, so it's probably still available, try Google search.

Good luck!



KillerBox said:


> How resourceful people on this board are, you would think that someone would make up a some of these display cables for sell?


That's a very very small niche market, IMHO the "resourcefulness" is required on the part of the person with the need. 

Search will reveal info & pics showing how to *DIY*MA a replacement cable using a readily available 'display-end' 2.5mm plug on both ends, running a jumper from the "3" wire to a chassis ground on the MS-8 end (kludgy but functional).


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## Lanson

I'm honestly surprised someone hasn't figured out how to connect it to a Raspberry Pi or similar.


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## t3sn4f2

fourthmeal said:


> I'm honestly surprised someone hasn't figured out how to connect it to a Raspberry Pi or similar.






Neil_J said:


> Here's my current setup. I made a pretty picture since people don't read the words anyway, it'll just save me from answering the same question 50 times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the blue thing in the picture (the Arduino Uno) is what does the hard work. Long story short, once it's in the arduino, it *can be interfaced to damn near any device or software out there*, if someone's willing to take the time to write it. By that, I mean: USB, ethernet, wireless, knobs, switches, encoders, buttons, etc. For the non-hardware nerds out there, the arduino is essentially an 8-bit microprocessor with a custom bootloader and free development software. Everything is *free* and it's dirt simple to program in. I know kids in elementary school programming on these things, so don't let them show you up! You can pick up the dev board for $30 or make your own from scratch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Labview app, which is currently reading an asyncronous serial version of the sniffed I2C session between the MS-8 and the display, parsing it in real-time, and displaying the controls on the screen. It also has the ability to emulate the display, although it needs some work and will likely be delayed to see if Andy can get the API document released (I'd rather not have to re-write anything). This isn't exactly "requirements-based programming" here, it's a complete hack job to prove the concept. It's not in any way what the final version will look like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the left: JBL MS-8 hooked up to lab power supply. Display cable has been cut and spliced so that the signals can be picked up by the arduino (below). The oscilloscope is showing the SCL (clock) and SDA (data) lines. On the right is the Labview app, which talks to the Arduino over a USB to serial bridge (note, this is NOT the same USB as the MS-8.. just to make that 100% clear, I know zero about the MS-8's USB port or the information that goes over it).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Q: So... What exactly is this project capable of?*
> A: Here are the bullet points of what it will do:
> 
> Reading or writing any settings that you can get from your display... that's about it!
> 
> *Q: I'm too lazy to read all 7k posts on the MS-8 thread or the manual... which settings can I change?*
> A: In addition to manually initiating the calibration process, you can programatically change:
> 
> volume
> logic 7 on/off
> processing on/off
> source (head unit or aux)
> mute on/off, volume
> auxillary volume
> favorite preset 1-5
> system levels (balance,fader,center,sub)
> tone control (treble,mid,bass)
> graphic eq (all 31 bands from -10dB to +10 dB in 0.5 dB increments)
> 
> If that doesn't sound very good, use your imagination for a second... Here are a few ideas of what you can do simply by reading and writing to the display registers:
> 
> Use the extra I/O lines with buttons, knobs, encoders, etc to change settings without navigating menus. If you're like me and don't drive a bloated SUV, then knobs and toggle switches may be a better way to go than a TFT screen. I like to drive my car, not surf the internet and check weather, thank you. I still consider knobs and switches better than the MS-8 remote, as it eliminates the byzantine menu system, and doesn't require a full-blown computer in your car. I'll probably throw mine into a single DIN or 1/2 DIN panel.
> The mute button could be triggered by another device in the car, e.g. a hands-free system
> Control volume from your steering wheel buttons... possibly other settings too?
> Turn Logic 7 on or off depending which source is selected (head unit or aux)
> Rather than only having five favorite preset, you could have an infinite amount, and qucikly switch between them (note that this doesn't mean that you'll have multiple calibration presets.. just the positions of all the audio controls and equalizer)
> Integrate with a carputer via arduino USB port. The arduino is acting as translater between the two.
> Integrate with an android via USB-on-the-go to the arduino USB port. The arduino is acting as translater between the two (this would be challenging but would be pretty awesome)
> Integrate with iPhone -- More difficult than writing an Android app, since Apple requires a fee (think 5-figures in US dollars) to interface a device. There are workarounds, however, like wifi (the arduino or other microprocessor would have to act as a server), or even a modem via the headphone/mic jack like the oldschool BBS days.. this would be my vote for the sheer awesomeness and challenge.
> Make an algorithm to implement a loudness curve (the 31-band equalizer curve would adjust bass/mid/treble ratio as the volume goes up or down)
> Hook up a GPS receiver to the arduino serial port, extract the $GPRMC message that contains velocity, and use this as a coefficient to the volume.. i.e. the volume or bass frequencies go up as you approach highway speeds (don't forget to convert, it outputs in nautical miles per hour!). I prefer sound deadening materials myself but if you have a really loud car...
> Control multiple MS-8's with one control source
> 
> As far as the calibration process goes:
> 
> Input setup (the high/low/noisy, etc part) would remain identical.
> For output setup (front/center/side/rear/sub selection, crossover frequencies and slopes, and channel selection), it may be possible for the arduino and/or associated UI's to "remember" which crossover frequencies and and ms8 channel mappings you have, and switch between different profiles... you would have to re-sweep the audio (acoustic calibration) when any of these things are changed, but you wouldn't have to manually enter them every time.
> output diagnostics (pink noise) would remain identical
> acoustic calibration would remain identical. It may be possible to set a volume macro although this could lead to even more problems.
> 
> *Q: You mean I can't manually set time alignment and crossover settings or have multiple calibration profiles? *
> A: Nope, but thanks for playing!


Whole thread:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/123115-reverse-engineering-ms-8-screen-remote.html


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## Lanson

Yeah, that's better!

Outside my field of expertise by a large margin, but I knew someone would do it.

edit: That thread was extremely anti-climatic. 

Even companies like Adobe know when to open-source their wares, as they become obsolete or out of production.


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## FordEscape

That's another example of the amazing depth of skills and talents represented on this forum - and the reality of the shifting winds of interest over time.

I can certainly understand companies preserving their IP secrets and rights over a very long time, hedging against the possibility that it may be resurrected in later products or have value in the market place (e.g. license or sale to others).


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## Lexingtonian

With all of this awesome reverse engineering geeking out, I hate to divert the natural path of the thread for my elementary question.. Here goes.

When using REW with the MS8 how should one go about properly examining the output from the unit?

Logic 7 On/Off?
Processing On (I Presume)

Since we don't get to adjust each speaker individually should we use the hidden menu to see what each channel is doing in REW, then pull it all back together for final 31 band EQ'ing with Logic 7 On and Processing On?

Been doing some searching on properly tuning an MS8. Any help appreciated!

Lex


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## Lanson

Just disconnect all speakers but one, and measure for your response per speaker.

For system left and system right whole system response, just balance left and right but I ignore what the rears are doing when doing this. Because you have only one EQ, I like measuring the left front total response and then right front total response (sweeps), and then averaging them together, then adjusting. It is a bit tedious but the 31 band is pretty good at knocking down the lumps and filling the troughs, here and there.

You'll find the MS-8 has the "jist" of a nice response especially left to right, but just needs a tiny bit more help to get it really on-point, especially if you desire a different house curve. One really nice thing about the 31 band graphic is it doesn't cause ripples from frequency to frequency like some graphic EQs do.





Lexingtonian said:


> With all of this awesome reverse engineering geeking out, I hate to divert the natural path of the thread for my elementary question.. Here goes.
> 
> When using REW with the MS8 how should one go about properly examining the output from the unit?
> 
> Logic 7 On/Off?
> Processing On (I Presume)
> 
> Since we don't get to adjust each speaker individually should we use the hidden menu to see what each channel is doing in REW, then pull it all back together for final 31 band EQ'ing with Logic 7 On and Processing On?
> 
> Been doing some searching on properly tuning an MS8. Any help appreciated!
> 
> Lex


----------



## Lexingtonian

fourthmeal said:


> Just disconnect all speakers but one, and measure for your response per speaker.
> 
> For system left and system right whole system response, just balance left and right but I ignore what the rears are doing when doing this. Because you have only one EQ, I like measuring the left front total response and then right front total response (sweeps), and then averaging them together, then adjusting. It is a bit tedious but the 31 band is pretty good at knocking down the lumps and filling the troughs, here and there.
> 
> You'll find the MS-8 has the "jist" of a nice response especially left to right, but just needs a tiny bit more help to get it really on-point, especially if you desire a different house curve. One really nice thing about the 31 band graphic is it doesn't cause ripples from frequency to frequency like some graphic EQs do.


Thanks for the response! Should I have Processing ON and Logic 7 Off for that portion? As it appears Processing ON means the MS8 is making corrections (TA/House Curve) and Logic 7 is simply adding the spacial magic.

Also, I've had trouble locating the Harman House Curve for REW. Any idea where to locate it?

Thanks much!


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## KillerBox

JBL House Curve


----------



## Lexingtonian

KillerBox said:


> JBL House Curve


Thanks,s o how do I put that in REW? Build it manually from the photo?


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## KillerBox

Lexingtonian said:


> Thanks,s o how do I put that in REW? Build it manually from the photo?


I have no idea. Maybe someone else can give you some guidance on that.


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## Lanson

Lexingtonian said:


> Thanks for the response! Should I have Processing ON and Logic 7 Off for that portion? As it appears Processing ON means the MS8 is making corrections (TA/House Curve) and Logic 7 is simply adding the spacial magic.
> 
> Also, I've had trouble locating the Harman House Curve for REW. Any idea where to locate it?
> 
> Thanks much!


I turn the processing off for this part, because you're ignoring it for measurements like this, or at least that's how I do it. With things faded hard left and then hard right (and only front channels here, ignoring surround), not much the LOGIC7 can do with that.

I don't know if its right, I just do it that way. But you definitely have to average your left and right before seeing what you want to do. Granted, the center channel will then heat up the midrange, so once you got it all dialed in with REW and your left/right averages, listen and then pull down (nice and smoothly) any heat from anywhere that acoustically doesn't sound right to you. If you think your center isn't helping or maybe your speaker doesn't sound right (like a mis-match), you could try to disconnect all speakers but center and just run a sweep while you are balanced forward/center. I've never had to do that, but I imagine its possible.


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## veritasz34

OK guys I'm coming to the party very late on this. I have seen several references to a hidden menu on the ms8. My very dumb question is how do I access it?


----------



## cesarius

Hello,

I hope that some ms8 Pros can help me with my issue.

I got a 12inch Sub in a dedicated Spare Tire Sub Box in the trunk. 
For testing purpose I am driving only my front speakers Pioneer TS e170ci (a tweeter+ 17cm Mid + passive crossover combo)
No rears.
All Speakers are connected to a 4 channel digital amp, 2 channels for the front and the others bridged for the sub.

If I run the calibration in my car with the rear seats in normal position(trunk compartment separated from the passenger compartment) and closed trunk floor, I get a very bad calibration with boomy and very uncomfortable bass that causes me literally headaches after a while. Reducing bass does not help very much in this case.

However if I remove the Trunk floor and open up the rear seats so that I can see the sub from the driving position, I get, in my opinion, an absolutely perfect sound across all frequencies. The Music just sounds so nice. If I close the seats and Trunk floor with this calibration method, the resulting sound lacks low frequencies. Adding Bass or levelling up the sub does not really help, cause the music just does not sound right.

Any Idea how I can find a solution for this dilemma?
I thought the ms8 can handle such a situation.

Many thanks for any help.


----------



## cesarius

veritasz34 said:


> OK guys I'm coming to the party very late on this. I have seen several references to a hidden menu on the ms8. My very dumb question is how do I access it?


Oh just saw your question while asking mine
May be you mean the testing menu? That could be reached with pressing left and right on the remote.


----------



## FordEscape

veritasz34 said:


> OK guys I'm coming to the party very late on this. I have seen several references to a hidden menu on the ms8. My very dumb question is how do I access it?


See this post, read the cautions three times and be _very careful_ - you can do damage if this is mis-used, that's why it's hidden  

MS-8 FAQ Hidden Menu Post


----------



## FordEscape

cesarius said:


> ....
> I got a 12inch Sub in a dedicated Spare Tire Sub Box in the trunk.
> For testing purpose I am driving only my front speakers Pioneer TS e170ci (a tweeter+ 17cm Mid + passive crossover combo)
> 
> ...
> 
> If I run the calibration in my car with the rear seats in normal position(trunk compartment separated from the passenger compartment) and closed trunk floor, I get a very bad calibration with boomy and very uncomfortable bass that causes me literally headaches after a while. Reducing bass does not help very much in this case.
> 
> .....
> 
> Any Idea how I can find a solution for this dilemma?
> I thought the ms8 can handle such a situation.


Several potential inherent limitations in that setup, IMHO:
1. With the passive XO front MS8 cannot do level setting for the individual drivers
2. Possibility that the tire-well enclosure is relatively small for the 12" subwoofer, leading to 'small subwoofer enclosure effects' that Andy has mentioned more than once. Is the enclosure properly sized for the specific sub? Is your sub XO within the comfort range for you driver?
3. Possibility that with your 'normal' trunk/seat configuration the sub is too-completely acoustically isolated from the cabin to work well with the power it has available.

*All* the following with the trunk/seat in your 'normal' configuration since that's what you want for listening:

Since you seem to have knowledge of the hidden menu, have you checked/set your speaker levels using a dB meter prior to running acoustic calibration ? Are you able to get good relative levels between all the speakers (see this post http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2186269-post10107.html)?

If you can't get the speaker levels good relative to each other using the hidden menu process described by kaigoss69, you may be fighting a losing battle; MS8 can't 'correct' for gross basic installation defects.

Are you taking care to avoid the common errors of too-loud sub-woofer or master volume during acoustic calibration? Remember, the sub should be just heard but not 'felt' for acoustic calibration.

Have you tried the 'trick' of covering (complete acoustic blocking) your front tweeters during the _first pass only_ of acoustic calibration?

Have you considered using the "kaigoss69 method" (configuring your sub as 'front low' on the front channels) to see if that helps?
No, as often stated, MS8 can not 'correct' for many basic installation deficiencies.


----------



## cesarius

Wow, many thanks for the very detailed answer!


> 1. With the passive XO front MS8 cannot do level setting for the individual drivers


Yes I am aware of this issue. I just wanted to test the MS-8 with minimal drivers as possible to get an initial "feeling" for it. The final setup will have the 2 tweeters, 2 mids, 2 rear speakers and the sub, all amplified separately. 


> 2. Possibility that the tire-well enclosure is relatively small for the 12" subwoofer, leading to 'small subwoofer enclosure effects' that Andy has mentioned more than once. Is the enclosure properly sized for the specific sub?


The sub is a in a sealed enclosure. The recommended Volume from JL is given by 1.25 cu ft / 35.4 L I got 32L that is the maximum that I can get in the spare tire trough. I added some enclosure Stuffing to virtually extend the volume. Anyhow I think the enclosure volume should be enough because I am getting a good sound with the open seats/Trunk floor.



> Is your sub XO within the comfort range for you driver?


This is a question that I can only answer with what I am hearing from the sub. I tested many XO Configurations. The best results, with open seats were between 75-80Hz. The sub is not locatable in this range and sounds overall very natural after the calibration.



> 3. Possibility that with your 'normal' trunk/seat configuration the sub is too-completely acoustically isolated from the cabin to work well with the power it has available.


Yes, you've got a point there. The trunk floor is actually a 10mm wood plate that closes all the parts(amps, sub, cables) under it. The wood plate has no holes that let the acoustic waves gets out easily. I may consider adding some holes at the region of the sub membrane to brake the acoustic isolation. But before I am getting to add holes I may test the calibration with closed seats and without the wood trunk floor. The effect should be the same.


> *All the following with the trunk/seat in your 'normal' configuration since that's what you want for listening:*





> [*]Since you seem to have knowledge of the hidden menu, have you checked/set your speaker levels using a dB meter prior to running acoustic calibration ? Are you able to get good relative levels between all the speakers (see this post link?


Actually I did not use the hidden menu for that. I use the Output diagnostics that is available just before the acoustic measurement starts. I level up all the speakers (amp gains) by hearing, I don't have a db-meter. And exactly here is a little issue that I am getting: If I level them with the output diagnostics, the sweep of the sub is later during the acoustic measurement very loud with closed seats and floor. 


> [*]If you can't get the speaker levels good relative to each other using the hidden menu process described by kaigoss69, you may be fighting a losing battle; MS8 can't 'correct' for gross basic installation defects.


Yeah I will test further with closed seats and open trunk floor to see what will happen.


> [*]Are you taking care to avoid the common errors of too-loud sub-woofer or master volume during acoustic calibration? Remember, the sub should be just heard but not 'felt' for acoustic calibration.


Actually yes. Master Volume is set before calibration at about -30db.


> [*]Have you tried the 'trick' of covering (complete acoustic blocking) your front tweeters during the _first pass only_ of acoustic calibration?


No, I will test that. With "first pass only", you mean the sweeps of the fronts only without subwoofer, right?


> [*]Have you considered using the "kaigoss69 method" (configuring your sub as 'front low' on the front channels) to see if that helps?


Hmm, as I am configuring the front as 1 way (passive xo between tweets and mids) I don't get the possibility to add Front lows. I think I will need to configure the fronts as 2 way to get the option of front lows, right?
But after that, I only have one mono subwoofer and the system will ask me for Front low right and left, which one should I use?

Okay I think I need to test much more to get better results and I need to get rid of the acoustic isolation of my sub that seems to be the main issue in my setup although it worked acceptably without DSP.


----------



## FordEscape

I'm not sure I understand the logic of using a hamstrung setup at this point - you're not using it to "get a feel" for the MS8, you're trying to get a good final tune with the MS8. If your 'real/final' setup will have 2-way active managed by MS8 for the front, then IMHO that's what you need in place for this 'getting a feel' process. All will change when you go 2-way active in front, including quite likely how the MS8 effects front/sub balancing/tune.



cesarius said:


> ....I need to get rid of the acoustic isolation of my sub that seems to be the main issue in my setup *although it worked acceptably without DSP*.


That's new info - if the sub/front balance did *not* sound "boomy and very uncomfortable" *without the DSP but all other things being equal*, then that suggests to me that your problem relates to the level setting before acoustic calibration with the DSP.

Even a smartphone dB meter app can help with that - you don't need a fancy instrument.

A particular MS8 master volume setting (e.g. "-30") doesn't tell us much - that could still be too loud depending on your amps/gains.


----------



## cesarius

> All will change when you go 2-way active in front, including quite likely how the MS8 effects front/sub balancing/tune.


Hmm I did not know that the 2 way active setup would have a such deep effect on the sub behaviour. Ok then I need to setup the cables first. 
My idea was trying the ms8 with as few variables as possible to test it at first step before starting routing cables and eventually buying an additional amp.

My Setup that I was driving with for 2 Years was:
Front Pioneer TS-E170ci with its passive crossover. 60W nominal, 260W Max, I don’t know if I the results will be ok if I connect it directly to MS8 with its 20 W amp. I somewhere read that the tweeters of the TS-E170ci have 8Ohms that will decrease even more the power of [email protected] of the MS8. 
Amp Kenwood KAC PS4D, 4 channel with 4x100W or 300W bridged. The fronts used to be connected to the amp’s A-channels and the Sub to the bridged B-channel.
Subwoofer JL 12W1v2-4.
Rear drivers are still stock and were not connected.

My actual testing setup is basically the same, just the MS8 which is connected between the head unit and the amp.

Do you have any suggestion for final setup with 2-Way active + Rear + Sub. 
My Plan: The sub will need the most of power, so it will rest on the bridged channel of the actual Kenwood amp. The rear will probably do their job with 2 channels from the MS8. The tweeters and the mids of the fronts will be connected to the MS8 amp, or should I connect either tweeters or mids to the 2 free channels of the external amp that will otherwise be unused?



> That's new info - if the sub/front balance did not sound "boomy and very uncomfortable" without the DSP but all other things being equal, then that suggests to me that your problem relates to the level setting before acoustic calibration with the DSP.


I did the level setting with the output diagnostic menu of the MS8 and a smartphone app. I leveled them as good as I can:
Front:








Sub:









While running the output diagnostic though, the fronts sound a little bit louder than the sub, but I guess that is the frequency sensitivity of the humain hearing.


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## gumbeelee

Hey guys thought I would post this here as well as the classifieds. I am looking to buy a set of ms-8 binaural mics (headphones) Does anyone have a set, I just purchased a ms-8 and it didnt come with a set


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## gumbeelee

JUST WANT TO SAY SUPER THANX TO GLOCKCOMA FOR HOOKING ME UP WITH A SET OF JBL BINAURAL MICS. I REALLY, REALLY, APPRECIATE IT!!! I OWE U ONE BRO!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## res036

hey iv recently bought an 04 acura tsx with the stereo integrated into the dash console and iv been debating if i should go with an ms8 or go a different route. just curious if you guys would recommend it? it would be mated with a jbl ms-a5001 & a1004. like i said i could really use some advice or if someone could point me to some better options that would be great! also im not trying to spend an arm and a leg 

thanks


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## litrekid

If u plan to run a center and rear speakers and have a lot of patience then I would say yes. I would also suggest it if u have never tuned a system with a dsp also but if u decided to run one then definitely go back to earlier in the thread when units started getting into people's hands and start reading. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## res036

litrekid said:


> If u plan to run a center and rear speakers and have a lot of patience then I would say yes. I would also suggest it if u have never tuned a system with a dsp also but if u decided to run one then definitely go back to earlier in the thread when units started getting into people's hands and start reading.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


there will be a total of 7 speakers. 2 tweeters on the dash, 2 front door speakers, 2 rear door, 2 rear panel speakers and a sub. no iv never tuned a DSP before iv usally just messed with EQs on aftermarket decks


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## FordEscape

*Re: JBL's MS-8 processor! ABRIDGED*

Maybe useful for the latecomers to bring this up again .... DIYMA JBL MS-8 Andy's Wisdom.pdf

It's the 'all meat, no cereal' PDF (and virus-free, scanned by AVG) version of the first 10,165 posts (~400 pages) to this thread I complied back in October of 2014. In other words, all of Andy Wehmeyer's posts (and a few others like kaigoss69) _without_ the raves, rants, redundant questions, etc.

At 84 pages it's still a lot to get through but contains ~95% of the _substantive_ content of this thread - honestly very little truly _new_ info has been posted here since then.

I see it's been downloaded over 100 times, hopefully helpful for some, all just FYI.


I urge folks new to the MS8 or wanting to fully exploit it to also read this incredibly helpful thread http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq.html

Finally, there's this webpage harman - old - MS-8 where the full Owners Manual, Sales spec sheet, and acoustic calibration CD file can be downloaded - an invaluable set of resources there.

Amazing to see how quick MS8's fly when offered for sale ..... IMHO a testament to how brilliant Andy and the team that developed the toy were, and proof that there's _still_ nothing else that quite matches its unique and useful combination of features.


----------



## litrekid

I wish I would have known about that all meat version. I went back and basically read all of his posts but that took a while to scan through. This will be very helpful. Thanks. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## KillerBox

FordEscape said:


> Amazing to see how quick MS8's fly when offered for sale ..... IMHO a testament to how brilliant Andy and the team that developed the toy were, and proof that there's _still_ nothing else that quite matches its unique and useful combination of features.


I agree!!! 

I am installing one of my BNIB MS-8 right now. I have another BNIB MS-8 for my work car and then an used MS-8 for a spare until something better comes along. 

I plan on using all of them in full 7.1 surround sound mode and I don't care what I have to do to get at least a 4" center channel speaker in the dash.


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## FordEscape

litrekid said:


> I wish I would have known about that all meat version. I went back and basically read all of his posts but that took a while to scan through. This will be very helpful. Thanks.


No worries, glad to help.

I posted this as an attachment far back in the thread but just now thought to add a link to it in my signature block - not sure that can be seen with TapaTalk but maybe more folks will find it and find it helpful that way.


----------



## Lanson

res036 said:


> there will be a total of 7 speakers. 2 tweeters on the dash, 2 front door speakers, 2 rear door, 2 rear panel speakers and a sub. no iv never tuned a DSP before iv usally just messed with EQs on aftermarket decks


This sounds like an excellent candidate for Helix or similar processors. 

there's no center in your plan so I'd not go MS-8. Just door (woofer) dash (tweeter) ,4 rear speakers total, and then a sub. The Helix V-Eight is just a bad-ass little unit if you don't want more amps on those other channels, and has 10 channels of processing power. That would be nice if you want to use those 4 rear speakers individually. Otherwise you could rig a passive surround type parallel or series setup, and that could use just 2 channels (taking you to 7-8.) that's good for 8 channel type processors.


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## res036

fourthmeal said:


> This sounds like an excellent candidate for Helix or similar processors.
> 
> there's no center in your plan so I'd not go MS-8. Just door (woofer) dash (tweeter) ,4 rear speakers total, and then a sub. The Helix V-Eight is just a bad-ass little unit if you don't want more amps on those other channels, and has 10 channels of processing power. That would be nice if you want to use those 4 rear speakers individually. Otherwise you could rig a passive surround type parallel or series setup, and that could use just 2 channels (taking you to 7-8.) that's good for 8 channel type processors.


thanks for the response but that might be a little out of my budget! so far all i got for my system is a set of Polk SR6500, jbl amps ms-a5001 & ms-a1004 and the sub. i still need to figure out the whole rear stage im thinking 6.5 coaxial speakers and a set of 6x9s


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## cesarius

*Re: JBL's MS-8 processor! ABRIDGED*



FordEscape said:


> Maybe useful for the latecomers to bring this up again .... DIYMA JBL MS-8 Andy's Wisdom.pdf



Many thanks for that pdf-file. 
I bought the MS8 because of the advertised autotune features, but after hours of testing, I realized that it is not as plug and play as the specs would like to tell us.
The auto time aligning of the ms8 is really really really good, especially when you test it against a manual aligned setup. The auto eq however is a mess, you need tricks, tips and a lot of patience. A closed sub in the trunk for example, needs a lot of tricks to be perfectly integrated into the rest of the speaker scenery.


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## I800C0LLECT

It's really not that bad and was only ever supposed to be sold to enthusiast and installers. It wasn't designed to be plug and play. I think bad marketing confused that point.

I definitely understand any frustrations with it but I think the key is understanding it's intent. It can't fix bad installs or locations.


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## I800C0LLECT

So I only have GB25's in the kick panels, no tweets, and GB60's under the seat as mid-bass. I've been struggling with the gains since I switched to an HD900/5. Tonight was my eureka moment!

I messed with the sub gain and it all came together. I can rock it out like I did with the MS amps and it sounds phenomenal!

Here's what's neat... The stage is solid on the dash! I've always wanted to believe that it was true... You can use the kick panels successfully! Not sure why I never turned off the tweets and tried it. *Shrug* can't tell the mid-bass are under the seats either  good times!

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## q2quest

res036 said:


> hey iv recently bought an 04 acura tsx with the stereo integrated into the dash console and iv been debating if i should go with an ms8 or go a different route. just curious if you guys would recommend it? it would be mated with a jbl ms-a5001 & a1004. like i said i could really use some advice or if someone could point me to some better options that would be great! also im not trying to spend an arm and a leg
> 
> thanks


I'd like to chime in here. I purchased an MS-8 years ago for a VW golf with Polk Audio front components and a sub. The MS-8 did a great job and I was very pleased with it. Then it crapped out and I replaced it with a used one from Ebay which also developed problems. For a short time I got a third one and could not manage to get it sounding right no matter what I tried. I spent weeks tweeting this and that until that one also succumbed to catastrophic failure. I finally gave up and bought a used Rockford Fosgate 3Sixty.3 DSP because it presented itself. I have gotten that to sound actually better than the MS-8 ever did. The thing I learned for myself is that any of the modern DSPs like Helix, RF, Audison, etc. all allow you to do everything that the MS-8 does, you just have to tune it yourself, which is turning out to be pretty fun and rewarding. The MS-8 is actually pretty time consuming and frustrating to use. Making changes requires a lengthy setup process and you have to write everything down that you do because you can't see what any of the settings on the MS-8 are. I mean the MS-8 does its thing, but doesn't show you what it did or how it is currently configured. You can't see immediate results of your changes in real time the way you can with other DSPs. With other DSPs you can flip the polarity on each speaker, for example, on a laptop and immediately hear whether or not that sounds better or worse. Or change the crossover settings or slopes and then switch them back again in a second and compare. When I was fiddling with the MS-8 I noticed that if I calibrated it two times in a row trying to do everything exactly the same that it would often sound quite different one time to the next which made me feel like the unit could easily stray away from an ideal tune.

In the end I believe that the MS-8 has a lot of cool things about it, that it can absolutely get your system to sound amazing, but I found it frustrating to use and now realize I wasted so much time on it when I should have gone straight to a tunable DSP from the beginning. Just my 2 cents.

Paul


----------



## FordEscape

It's unfortunate that q2quest seems to have had some problem units in his MS8 experience. Not an issue I've experienced but I'm sure that can (and has) happened.

IMHO his points about some of the drawbacks of MS8's 'autotune' are quite valid. It's not for everyone, and there's certainly a degree of control forfeited in return for the autotune capability.

I also agree with fourthmeal's comments about there being other alternative DSP's well-worth considering when one isn't using a center channel. The way that MS8 creates a center channel is one of its 'unique' features and if you don't need that then it certainly opens-up the pool of DSPs that might be considered. Yeah, there's lots of ways that a 'center' can be created from a stereo signal using other DSPs (countless threads about that here) but the way the MS8 does it is largely quite convenient and very effective in the result - particularly for those who seek to achieve a least-compromised 'multi listener' environment, _which is the real purpose of having a center channel_.

The MS8 was my introduction to the world of DSP. Maybe just lucky but when I first installed it in my largely OEM car with front and rear speakers (I'd upgraded speakers slightly) it _was_ a 'plug-n-play' process that yielded instant improvement and gratification.

It also set me on a path of much more extensive mods to my car and yes that lead to needing to spend a bit more time and effort getting into some of the 'tricks and tips' to fully exploit and optimize the sound.

I don't consider that wasted time, it's been a fun and IMHO beneficial learning curve. Looking back as objectively as I can, I'm not so sure that I'd have been incited to stick with it and get to the point I'm at today if I hadn't had the 'leg-up' that the MS8 autotune provided. 

When I started this DSP adventure in 2014 I was more interested in listening enjoyment than learning a new skill (DSP tuning), and lacked (at that time) a calibrated mic, an understanding of great tuning tools like REW software, and the underlying concepts and 'ear training' required for good tuning .... I might well have been discouraged and abandoned the whole thing if I'd had to start from scratch in 2014. A LOT of info has been provided on this forum since then relating to tuning DSPs, making 'from scratch' tuning an easier proposition, but IMHO it still requires a few external tools and a lot of study and practice for the genuine DIY newbie to get good results 'out of the box'.

MS8 is *not* a 'be-all, end-all'. Especially now, there *are many* very attractive alternatives. Some of them can even be gotten at prices competitive with the (albeit limited market supply) MS8.

Given where I _now_ am with my personal skills and acquired tools, would I consider something other than an MS8? Yes - I'll admit I've gotten the bug and continue to be very intrigued by the Helix offerings in particular, though the price threshold is quite substantial for what would be a meaningful 'upgrade' for me. If you're an experienced car audio enthusiast, or of the sort that enters a new hobby fully intending to get into it up to your ears rather than starting with dipping your toes in the water, then I'd say skip the MS8.

Do I hesitate to suggest the MS8 as a solid choice for a new enthusiast's first entry into the world of DSP? Nope - in fact I still encourage it.

YMMV


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## q2quest

FordEscape said:


> It's unfortunate that q2quest seems to have had some problem units in his MS8 experience. Not an issue I've experienced but I'm sure that can (and has) happened.
> 
> IMHO his points about some of the drawbacks of MS8's 'autotune' are quite valid. It's not for everyone, and there's certainly a degree of control forfeited in return for the autotune capability.
> 
> I also agree with fourthmeal's comments about there being other alternative DSP's well-worth considering when one isn't using a center channel. The way that MS8 creates a center channel is one of its 'unique' features and if you don't need that then it certainly opens-up the pool of DSPs that might be considered. Yeah, there's lots of ways that a 'center' can be created from a stereo signal using other DSPs (countless threads about that here) but the way the MS8 does it is largely quite convenient and very effective in the result - particularly for those who seek to achieve a least-compromised 'multi listener' environment, _which is the real purpose of having a center channel_.
> 
> The MS8 was my introduction to the world of DSP. Maybe just lucky but when I first installed it in my largely OEM car with front and rear speakers (I'd upgraded speakers slightly) it _was_ a 'plug-n-play' process that yielded instant improvement and gratification.
> 
> It also set me on a path of much more extensive mods to my car and yes that lead to needing to spend a bit more time and effort getting into some of the 'tricks and tips' to fully exploit and optimize the sound.
> 
> I don't consider that wasted time, it's been a fun and IMHO beneficial learning curve. Looking back as objectively as I can, I'm not so sure that I'd have been incited to stick with it and get to the point I'm at today if I hadn't had the 'leg-up' that the MS8 autotune provided.
> 
> When I started this DSP adventure in 2014 I was more interested in listening enjoyment than learning a new skill (DSP tuning), and lacked (at that time) a calibrated mic, an understanding of great tuning tools like REW software, and the underlying concepts and 'ear training' required for good tuning .... I might well have been discouraged and abandoned the whole thing if I'd had to start from scratch in 2014. A LOT of info has been provided on this forum since then relating to tuning DSPs, making 'from scratch' tuning an easier proposition, but IMHO it still requires a few external tools and a lot of study and practice for the genuine DIY newbie to get good results 'out of the box'.
> 
> MS8 is *not* a 'be-all, end-all'. Especially now, there *are many* very attractive alternatives. Some of them can even be gotten at prices competitive with the (albeit limited market supply) MS8.
> 
> Given where I _now_ am with my personal skills and acquired tools, would I consider something other than an MS8? Yes - I'll admit I've gotten the bug and continue to be very intrigued by the Helix offerings in particular, though the price threshold is quite substantial for what would be a meaningful 'upgrade' for me. If you're an experienced car audio enthusiast, or of the sort that enters a new hobby fully intending to get into it up to your ears rather than starting with dipping your toes in the water, then I'd say skip the MS8.
> 
> Do I hesitate to suggest the MS8 as a solid choice for a new enthusiast's first entry into the world of DSP? Nope - in fact I still encourage it.
> 
> YMMV


Like FordEscape, the MS-8 got me started in being interested in quality sound. I was very happy with it for about 4 years. After the first unit died on me I tried to replace the unit and get that same sound back in my car, but I never could get it again with the MS-8. I don't know why. I became obsessed with trying to get my system to sound as good as it once did. Finally, after months of reading and trying different things my system sounds better than it did with the MS-8. Unfortunately, I've gone down the rabbit hole never to be satisfied with OEM stereo systems ever again. My wife has an Audi Q5 with the Bang&Olufson premium sound and to me it sounds like garbage. In some ways I wish I could go back to ignorance, to a time where I turned on the stereo and was satisfied with mediocre sound because I didn't know any better. Like when we used to be impressed with 27" "big screen" televisions in 480p. Those days are long gone.


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## litrekid

Why are there such a lack of dsp with center channel capabilities? That was one thing that drew me to the ms8. The fact that my car actually had one, I wanted to use it. I have always been one to dive into a hobby head first and deep. Not being afraid to learn with something not considered good for beginners. Although with the amount hours I work and my family. I knew I didn't have the time to spend trying to tune it my self let alone learning how. Just using the ms8 has allowed me to Lear so much already though just trying to understand how it does things. One day I will take that plunge but for now this is perfect. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## KillerBox

litrekid said:


> Why are there such a lack of dsp with center channel capabilities?


My guess is that none of these other manufacture's are willing to pay Dolby's license fees. 

I installed a car center channel speaker in 1992 and I haven't looked back. So until a better 7.1 surround sound DSP or I can buy a 7.1 headunit, I am sticking with the MS8.


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## res036

q2quest said:


> I'd like to chime in here. I purchased an MS-8 years ago for a VW golf with Polk Audio front components and a sub. The MS-8 did a great job and I was very pleased with it. Then it crapped out and I replaced it with a used one from Ebay which also developed problems. For a short time I got a third one and could not manage to get it sounding right no matter what I tried. I spent weeks tweeting this and that until that one also succumbed to catastrophic failure. I finally gave up and bought a used Rockford Fosgate 3Sixty.3 DSP because it presented itself. I have gotten that to sound actually better than the MS-8 ever did. The thing I learned for myself is that any of the modern DSPs like Helix, RF, Audison, etc. all allow you to do everything that the MS-8 does, you just have to tune it yourself, which is turning out to be pretty fun and rewarding. The MS-8 is actually pretty time consuming and frustrating to use. Making changes requires a lengthy setup process and you have to write everything down that you do because you can't see what any of the settings on the MS-8 are. I mean the MS-8 does its thing, but doesn't show you what it did or how it is currently configured. You can't see immediate results of your changes in real time the way you can with other DSPs. With other DSPs you can flip the polarity on each speaker, for example, on a laptop and immediately hear whether or not that sounds better or worse. Or change the crossover settings or slopes and then switch them back again in a second and compare. When I was fiddling with the MS-8 I noticed that if I calibrated it two times in a row trying to do everything exactly the same that it would often sound quite different one time to the next which made me feel like the unit could easily stray away from an ideal tune.
> 
> In the end I believe that the MS-8 has a lot of cool things about it, that it can absolutely get your system to sound amazing, but I found it frustrating to use and now realize I wasted so much time on it when I should have gone straight to a tunable DSP from the beginning. Just my 2 cents.
> 
> Paul


OK thats good to know, the Rockford Fosgate 3Sixty.3 is one of the other units i was thinking about picking up. how much better do you like the fosgate?


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## FordEscape

litrekid said:


> Why are there such a lack of dsp with center channel capabilities?....


There's nothing that prevents setting up a center channel with most other DSPs - just like all the 'tuning' decisions for other channels, the user has the latitude (and burden) to set-up the center channel as they choose.

IMHO the real question you are implicitly asking is "Why don't more aftermarket DSP manufacturers include a _'pre-configured'_ multi-speaker ambience environment like Dolby, Logic 7, or their own proprietary scheme?"

That, IMHO, _does_ go to manufacturer cost/benefit and the market they seek .... it leads down the path of some sort of 'autotune', or at least 'controlled calibration' to ensure that the 'pre-configured ambience' (i.e. Dolby 7.1, Logic 7) does indeed deliver its promised audio potential when installed in an unknown acoustic environment. 

The Alpine PXA-H800 for example, which offers Dolby Logic, includes a calibrated mic and requires what I'm calling 'directed calibration' (for lack of a better term) to help ensure its 'pre-configured ambience' works as intended.



KillerBox said:


> My guess is that none of these other manufacture's are willing to pay Dolby's license fees....


Interesting notion but I'm not sure it holds up. While Dolby may well hold rights to the specific way they implement the center in their system, there's other non-"Dolby" center-channel algorithms/implementations in OEM car and home audio (JBL's ""Logic 7" being one of them; my OEM 9-speaker Ford with a center dash speaker being one of _many_ others).


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## I800C0LLECT

Guys...FordEscape has provided a great source for conversation that surrounds the implementation of the MS-8. Don't confuse this thread with MS-8 missed the mark and it's too complex. It's simply an AUTO-EQ. Don't confuse the conversations with the idea that the MS-8 is extremely tough to implement. Most of the conversations have to do with alleviating a specific issue within a specific circumstance which is almost ALWAYS related to mid-bass and sub gains. Once it exhausts it's resources trying to fix one area, it leaves nothing to others...causing a cascade effect it seems. I had a weird issue with my right mid-range being much louder than my left...because my sub gain wasn't right. Nine out of ten people would pull their hair out trying to figure that out. I didn't...I just remembered what Andy said, if it sounds crazy and has multiple problems you probably have a single setup issue.

If you're trying to understand how the MS-8 reaches the end product and manipulate that you're going to throw it against the wall. If you're getting different outcomes every time you "tune", something isn't right in your install.

I can achieve the same outcome, good or bad, when I don't change any variables. It's consistent.

As far as center channels, most users don't care about dual seat or whole car setups. Additionally, most people don't care to understand how to implement proper rear fill either. Andy designed a product for a niche market that would showcase what JBL could do for auto manufacturers. JBL makes a lot more money selling those amp+DSP products to Ford, Chevy, etc. At least I think it's that simple.

Look at AudioFrog...Andy took his passion for SQ at every seat to a whole other level and he's already stated that it'll be too expensive for most consumers.


----------



## cesarius

I want to share my experience with the MS-8. I am trying to implement it since approx. 3 weeks now (see post # #12182). I spent a lot of hours and all weekends in the garage, so that my neighbours were asking me if I had a quarrel with my wife. Not to mention how often I damned every passerby that was making noise while I was calibrating. 
Anyhow, FordEscape gave some valuable tips including that great pdf-File with Andy's comments. 

At first, I started with a simple setup with only 2 front speakers (6"component system with their passive crossovers) and a subwoofer in the trunk. I had major issues with that Subwoofer. After calibration I had extremely loud sub bass and the music was just dull lacking also mid bass.
I tried hundreds of calibrations with different calibration volumes, crossover settings, amp gains. Nothing really helped. I tried Kaigoss's mod just a little bit modified for my simple setup: calibrating the front system as 1 way full range and then after calibration crossing it over with the sub with the external amp. This mod helped a little bit, but the result was not what I was expecting from a such highly rated product.
I was about throwing the ms8 out of my car but took a pause for some days and read tons of threads. The majority of the posts of people that were complaining about the MS8 ended up in some problems of the setup itself and not the MS8 (excluding exotic setups ofc). Usually it was the user's/installer's and not MS8's fault. 
So I started to recheck the complete installation of my car, starting with exchanging my power cable for a way better one. While I was checking my right midbass driver for polarity with a battery and cone movement, I realized that the speaker was connected out of phase. I remember what Andy said some years ago:


Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If the mids are inaudible and the bas sis too loud, there are two possible problems. 1. Midrange speakers are conected out of phase, 2) all the sweeps are too loud.


So I rechecked all the speakers for polarity, added the rear speakers and tried the calibration again. The result was better because the huuuge sub bass was gone. But the music did not sound quite good.

After checking the sub itself for polarity, it is a sealed one btw, I pushed the cone a little bit and it returned up directly! That is actually unusual for a sealed sub because the cone should return slowly due to the vacuum of the enclosure. 2 Screws were a little bit loose.  

1 Calibration with standard Values of the MS8: Goosebumps! 
I got a well-balanced and centred stage, great midbass and rapid dry sub bass to the point in one pass! It is just amazing to play any music genre and it just sounds good.

My conclusion: If the MS8 sounds bad, it is just telling you that you should fix your setup.

Now I can start fine tuning it. Although I still got some basic questions, I need a pause now and just enjoy the results of the hard work as a newbie.

Thank you all for the support and this great thread.:thumbsup:


----------



## DC/Hertz

It's really temperamental. 
When I had the ported 8 it wanted 80hz on the midrange. 
Now I got a sealed 12 and if I go less then 100hz it has them jumping out of the doors.


----------



## spitfire91104

Looking to get some thoughts on my planned setup.

Using 3 boston spz 6.5" as l/c/r but some gb15's for l/r and a gb10 for center. The spz woofer has the same thread pattern as the gb10 housing so i can actually mount the tweeter straight to my woofer.

My question is if I use the smaller tweeter in the center will it impact performance significantly? Not sure if I would be able to get the gb15 to fit in the center of the woofer without raising the tweeter if its possible. Plus I would have to find a single tweeter.(already found a gb10 by itself)

Also to add my center will not far up on my dashboard as my ac control display is up there, it will be on the top of my console more above the headunit. So a little more on axis and closer to the listeners than centers normally are. 

Thanks


----------



## josby

spitfire91104 said:


> My question is if I use the smaller tweeter in the center will it impact performance significantly?
> 
> Also to add my center will not far up on my dashboard as my ac control display is up there, it will be on the top of my console more above the headunit. So a little more on axis and closer to the listeners than centers normally are.


It's my understanding that the only impact of using the GB10 will be having to cross your center mid higher up into the frequencies where its output becomes less omnidirectional (i.e. beaming). So the impact will depend on how much closer to on-axis it is than a typical door speaker. 

To really know for sure, I think you'd need a polar response graph for your mid driver to be able to see the max acceptable listening angle at the crossover frequency you plan to use.


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## I800C0LLECT

Different sized tweeters for the center channel won't be an issue. You don't have to match speakers. The only real requirement for center channel (when using logic 7) is to use the biggest one you can fit or are willing to fit


----------



## swargolet

I recently replaced my MS8 due to shorting out my old one. Very easy to replace due to all the quick disconnects for the high level inputs and outputs. I'm having some issues with my new one though.

- After calibrating, the image is pulled HARD right. I believe it has something to do with the binaural microphone since my old ones calibrate fine. This is a brand new unit though so not sure what may be wrong with them. Anyone have a similar issue?

- The bigger problem I'm having though is I'm getting a ton of static through the speakers similar to when a gain is set too high, but I'm using the exact same gains as previously. If I lower the gains the static does reduce, but then the overall volume is too low. The MS8 volume does NOT affect it and defeating processing does NOT affect it. But muting the MS8 completely removes all static. This is new to me as previously adjusting the volume would affect any odd noises I would hear. I'm also getting a high pitch whine when pressing on the gas pedal even with the engine off! Any thoughts here? It doesn't seem like an audio calibration issue. Could it possibly be an input calibration issue where it had to boost the input signal a ton? Seems odd to me since I'm using the same volume setting I did previously which worked fine.

The installation and calibration techniques are identical to how I did it with my old unit.


----------



## litrekid

Those r some odd issues for sure. All I can relate to is the image pulling right. I have a hard time getting mine centered when trying something different. The only thing I have noticed is the calibration volume seems to make a difference for me. If I have it a little too loud it will pull right for me. Whether that makes sense or not that has been my experience. Crazy how each of these units can have different characters. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## 156546

FordEscape said:


> There's nothing that prevents setting up a center channel with most other DSPs - just like all the 'tuning' decisions for other channels, the user has the latitude (and burden) to set-up the center channel as they choose.
> 
> IMHO the real question you are implicitly asking is "Why don't more aftermarket DSP manufacturers include a _'pre-configured'_ multi-speaker ambience environment like Dolby, Logic 7, or their own proprietary scheme?"
> 
> That, IMHO, _does_ go to manufacturer cost/benefit and the market they seek .... it leads down the path of some sort of 'autotune', or at least 'controlled calibration' to ensure that the 'pre-configured ambience' (i.e. Dolby 7.1, Logic 7) does indeed deliver its promised audio potential when installed in an unknown acoustic environment.
> 
> The Alpine PXA-H800 for example, which offers Dolby Logic, includes a calibrated mic and requires what I'm calling 'directed calibration' (for lack of a better term) to help ensure its 'pre-configured ambience' works as intended.
> 
> Interesting notion but I'm not sure it holds up. While Dolby may well hold rights to the specific way they implement the center in their system, there's other non-"Dolby" center-channel algorithms/implementations in OEM car and home audio (JBL's ""Logic 7" being one of them; my OEM 9-speaker Ford with a center dash speaker being one of _many_ others).


The license fees for the UPMIXER software from both Dolby and DTS are not expensive. The license fees for discrete surround are. The reasons that these are not included in processors from most DSP companies are pretty straightforward: 1) the product managers at these companies don't understand upmixing and 2) the product and/or brand managers at these other companies are so immersed in 2-channel audio that they think upmixing is stupid and 3) the product managers at these companies have heard upmixing improperly set up and have based their judgement on the entire subject on this.


----------



## KillerBox

GotFrogs said:


> The reasons that these are not included in processors from most DSP companies are pretty straightforward: 1) the product managers at these companies don't understand upmixing and 2) the product and/or brand managers at these other companies are so immersed in 2-channel audio that they think upmixing is stupid and 3) the product managers at these companies have heard upmixing improperly set up and have based their judgement on the entire subject on this.


In my area this applies to all the local stereo stores too. I just got my 7.1 surround sound system installed and from the designing stages all the way to the end, they couldn't understand what I was trying to accomplish. 

The owner is very hands on and has owned the same single stereo shop since 1986 and does excellent work but, most customers just want loud.

After telling the stereo store many of times to just install it like I planned, they did. Then I took it home for a week to set the gains on 3 amps (using 14 out of 18 amp channels), passive x-over points and MS8 settings.

I then purposely for no reason dropped the SUV off for a day so the installer and owner could have a listen. When I got back, all 3 amps were toasty warm and they had burned through almost 1/2 tank of gas but, had driven no miles. Needless to say I think they got it!

I would also like to thank you Andy because it was based as much as possible with the equipment that I had on the info that I have read on your Mercedes!


----------



## 156546

KillerBox said:


> In my area this applies to all the local stereo stores too. I just got my 7.1 surround sound system installed and from the designing stages all the way to the end, they couldn't understand what I was trying to accomplish.
> 
> The owner is very hands on and has owned the same single stereo shop since 1986 and does excellent work but, most customers just want loud.
> 
> After telling the stereo store many of times to just install it like I planned, they did. Then I took it home for a week to set the gains on 3 amps (using 14 out of 18 amp channels), passive x-over points and MS8 settings.
> 
> I then purposely for no reason dropped the SUV off for a day so the installer and owner could have a listen. When I got back, all 3 amps were toasty warm and they had burned through almost 1/2 tank of gas but, had driven no miles. Needless to say I think they got it!
> 
> I would also like to thank you Andy because it was based as much as possible with the equipment that I had on the info that I have read on your Mercedes!



Glad I was helpful and thanks for spreading the gospel.


----------



## Lanson

My old Flex and my current Durango proselytize this too. The 2013 Flex build was perfect for proving the idea worked. I miss that setup.


----------



## Elgrosso

I start to miss L7 too.
The front stage is now better than ever, and I don't think I could have got that with ms8 only, but I’d appreciate a little more depth and this funky impression of space it added.
Maybe bringing back ms8 in the loop will one of the next step!


----------



## Lanson

Just yesterday I was listening to a live set (EDM recording from Global-sets.com, really well-recorded electronic music btw) and noticed my Durango had amazing ambiance behind my head. I ducked my head back a few feet and felt that spacey sensation that the MS-8 can provide.

My cure of taking my rear d-pillars and pairing the rear speakers with it (with a 4 channel amp split off two channels of the MS-8 worked great for added space. I got that idea from Andy. That way you can still run a 2-way active front stage along with a pseudo-7.1 surround rear.


----------



## KillerBox

If you really want to get Spacey, then try to listen the MS8 in a 7.1 surround mode in a SUV with the rear speakers behind the 3rd row seats. 

On some songs, it is amazing!


----------



## DC/Hertz

Mine pulls hard right every time. 
Shift the balance until the center is where is supposed to be. Leave it there and calibrate again. It should stay center.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

I did notice my stage shifting randomly in my Jetta. I always felt like it had to be voltage related. Most times it played very well though.

So... Who is this guy that owns this Accord?!

https://www.kingpincaraudio.com/honda-accord-audio-upgrade-for-beaverton-client/

I want to hear this car!


----------



## DC/Hertz

If I didn't have noise coming from the cheap ass stock Ford HU I would be in audio heaven. 
If metra doesn't bring the dash kit by the time I'm ready to dump money into the car again I'm going to glass an iPad in and run a DAC to the MS-8.


----------



## Lanson

KillerBox said:


> If you really want to get Spacey, then try to listen the MS8 in a 7.1 surround mode in a SUV with the rear speakers behind the 3rd row seats.
> 
> On some songs, it is amazing!


Yeah that's what I have, the Durango has those 3.5" drivers (usually used for ParkSense beeping) in the rear pillars up high, and then 6.5" in the rear doors. 

Have you tried doing it the way I described so you have active front 2-way?


----------



## billw

I800C0LLECT said:


> I did notice my stage shifting randomly in my Jetta. I always felt like it had to be voltage related. Most times it played very well though.
> 
> So... Who is this guy that owns this Accord?!
> 
> https://www.kingpincaraudio.com/honda-accord-audio-upgrade-for-beaverton-client/
> 
> I want to hear this car!


Here's the build log. It started DIY before he took it to Kingpin.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...l-gallery/148091-2013-honda-accord-build.html


----------



## swargolet

DC/Hertz said:


> Mine pulls hard right every time.
> Shift the balance until the center is where is supposed to be. Leave it there and calibrate again. It should stay center.


The interesting thing with mine is that it only pulls hard right with my new microphone. The one from my old MS8 calibrates just fine leading me to believe something is wrong with the microphone itself.


The static I'm having is a new problem. I've never had it where there was always static regardless of volume (both MS8 and HU) but went away when the MS8 was muted.


----------



## KillerBox

swargolet said:


> The interesting thing with mine is that it only pulls hard right with my new microphone. The one from my old MS8 calibrates just fine leading me to believe something is wrong with the microphone itself.
> 
> 
> The static I'm having is a new problem. I've never had it where there was always static regardless of volume (both MS8 and HU) but went away when the MS8 was muted.


I wonder if your microphone plug isn't going far enough into the hole on the MS8?


----------



## NBusiness

Does anyone have a file download of the cd they can direct me to??

I just reset my ms8 and the Dropbox file I previously used is gone and now I have no audio!

Please help I have no cd either


----------



## FordEscape

*Official MS8 Setup Track Download Website*



NBusiness said:


> Does anyone have a file download of the cd they can direct me to??
> 
> I just reset my ms8 and the Dropbox file I previously used is gone and now I have no audio!
> 
> Please help I have no cd either


Go here harman - old - MS-8

See "DOWNLOADS" > MLS Setup track Small.wav

and How to burn your JBL MS-8 set-up track.pdf

IF you don't have a CD, then simply copy the .wav file to a USB flash drive with no compression / without any modification - *use the .wav file exactly as provided - do NOT covert to .mp* or any other file format*.


----------



## Elgrosso

KillerBox said:


> If you really want to get Spacey, then try to listen the MS8 in a 7.1 surround mode in a SUV with the rear speakers behind the 3rd row seats.
> 
> On some songs, it is amazing!


I'm sure! I almost bought a wagon just for that 
But few ms more with another dsp should do the trick




KillerBox said:


> I wonder if your microphone plug isn't going far enough into the hole on the MS8?


Thought of that too, or bad mic, bent wire?
These wires are thin, and long, I'm glad I have spares.


----------



## JimmyDee

490 pages to this thread... 12,235 posts!

Could this be the longest post on DIYMA?


----------



## TheHulk9er

I800C0LLECT said:


> I did notice my stage shifting randomly in my Jetta. I always felt like it had to be voltage related. Most times it played very well though.
> 
> So... Who is this guy that owns this Accord?!
> 
> https://www.kingpincaraudio.com/honda-accord-audio-upgrade-for-beaverton-client/
> 
> I want to hear this car!


That does look awesome! The 3 way center with a 3.5" mid, 2 tweeters, and a 5.25" woofer is really sick!  (And I thought my Dynaudio Esotar 430 / Hertz Mille 280 was pretty nuts!).


----------



## glockcoma

Just got an email from Harmon say refurbished ms-8 units will be available soon. 
http://www.harmanaudio.com/MS-8_.html?dwvar_MS-8___color=Silver-Z#start=1


----------



## KillerBox

Does anyone have a guide or tips that they can share of how to tune the MS8 in 7.1 mode with a RTA?

I did the auto-tune in the two front seats and the two middle row seats but, not in the third row. Then RTA was ran with Logic 7 on, Processing active, Seat front and MS8 is -6dBs. 

According to the RTA my subs were extremely peakish in the 32hz and 40hz (32hZ was the worst +8dBs) . And my midsbass was low from 63hz to 200hz (200hz was the worst at -4.5dBs). After tuning, the deep bass is smoother but, I am not sure the midbass is an improvement.

Should I tune with mono pink noise, stereo pink noise, something else or no tuning at all?


----------



## Jcmamma

Suscribing to this thread. Im about hafe way through reading it and hate trying to find it everytime i sit to read. Im planing on an ms8 install next weekend. Great product thread! So much experience throughout the pages...


----------



## jgarcia1925

In doing the same thing right now ^ about half way there lol 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## litrekid

Some advice for u guys reading through, bookmark or log somewhere post # of info u think might be important. After reading through and then running into problems I could remember the post but never where it was at. Will save u some time maybe. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Lanson

There's also that other thread (and a PDF) with all the critical info all laid out. Not sure where it went but it condenses this stuff


----------



## FordEscape

fourthmeal said:


> There's also that other thread (and a PDF) with all the critical info all laid out. Not sure where it went but it condenses this stuff


Perhaps referring to the PDF linked in my sig-block below?

And this other very useful thread ... http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq.html


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## Jcmamma

Well, its only 5,000,000,000 pages long. Shouldnt be a problem remembering ...


----------



## Jcmamma

"And this other very useful thread ..."


^^^^^^
Very usefull as im about to do an install this saturday. Looking forward to it. Great for referencing. Thank you!!!


----------



## RoNeR

hello, i have problem with my ms8, i search a lot on this thread without solution.
after one min its on, i cant change anything, even volume.

for example i turn the volume up ad down, i see the bar on the screen but the volume still the same volume. its also happened with eq and balance and all other setting.
if i try to toggle logic, the screen freeze, after i replug the screen its i have one more min to make changes.

anyone have a clue how to fix it?


----------



## KillerBox

I have never heard of a MS8 freezing up but, have you tried pushing the reset button on the MS8 main unit?


----------



## RoNeR

i try reset it, also try to replug the power.


----------



## litrekid

Might have a bad cable or display. Not easy to find without the whole unit but I would start looking. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## RoNeR

i try to firmware update the unit, all updated until it get to display, the ms8 perform reset and the firmware stuck. the display not updated.
i think is the display that die,


if someone want to buy the ms-8 without display send me PM


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## RoNeR

Good news, i fix the problem by solderout the connector on mainunit and screen, and replace them with molex connector from pc  work great.


----------



## jgarcia1925

Well finally read this whole beast. Now more than anything I honestly feel scared putting this thing in, more so because I found out from some other threads that I purchased a refurbished unit, not a new one like I thought from someone who had never used theirs. Reading all the issues people had make me skeptical. It's not even the tuning part that I'm afraid of, as even tho I'm a total noob at this, it's the other issues people have. Broken screens, broken RCA connectors etc. We shall see what happens. I also bought a msa1004 and the msa5001, currently running the 5001 and I love that amp. Probably my favorite so far but I don't have speakers for the front stage. Not sure if I should do a two way active or the three way Precision Power set ive been looking at 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jgarcia1925

Oh and now to look for all the other info I can get for people with my similar car. (Mk6 GTI). 

By any chance anyone in the Chicagoland area have this bad boy hooked up? Would love to hear it if possible as well 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KillerBox

I read the same posts and just installed mine about four months ago. I running my MS8 in full 7.1 Logic with all channels powered by three Arc Audio 1200.6 xDI amps.

All I can say is the MS-8 has been flawless. I ran the setup about 5 times while making small changes to see if I could improve the sound and then went with what sounded the best.

1.) If you have RCA output, test your headunits output power see where 2v output might be. On my 5v Kenwood headunit with everything set flat, it only output 2.1v and was distortion free up to 39 out of 40 on the volume.

2.) Ran the RCAs directly from the headunit to the amps and set the amps gains with the highest undistorted output. I used 0% overlap on my small 4" center channel speakers and 4" speakers behind my 3rd row seats, 3% overlap on my 6.5" front door, rear door speakers and subwoofers. I know people say that you can run more overlap than that but, I am overdriving everything except the subwoofers and didn't want any clipping.

3.) Used a microphone and ears to level match my speakers to the same volume output. My speakers were chosen from the same company with similar specs, so there wasn't any major adjustments.

4.) Hooked MS8 into the signal chain. Very simple to walk through its set up and adjustments.

5.) My tip: Don't try to drive your mids and highs to the lowest frequency limits. Example my 6.5" have 73hz Fs but, I found that they sounded better being crossed over at 85hz @ 24db slope. In my system everything ran better at 24db slopes.

6.) Don't have any major flaws in your set up frequency response before you install the MS-8 or it will try its best to compensate.

7.) In my system, I did my MS8 sweeps at a -35 on the MS8 control. The sweeps should be done at around a 85db level and in a quiet location. I also would recommend with the car engine off and windows rolled up.

7.) I use my headunit volume control for everything and leave the MS8 at -6 on the volume control. My settings on the MS-8: Seat: front, Logic 7: on, Processing: active & my subwoofer level -4 (because my subwoofer volume was too much)

8.) I know everything sound complicated but, it really isn't. I absolutely love what the MS-8 does for my system. I don't know how it could sound any better and without it I don't think I could have ever achieved this sound quality.


----------



## TheHulk9er

I have been using an MS8 since it first came out and love it. I echo what was said in the prior post especially about keeping all your drivers in their sweet spot and not trying to run them too low or stretch them to play outside their capabilities. When drivers stay within their capabilities their dispersion is wide and clean. For me my system took a giant leap once I was able to do a quality center channel and add an amp to run all my drivers active (except for rear fill). Because of the way the MS8 blends the sub with the front mid bass drivers it's best to let the sub play up higher as it's far more capable with the bottom two octaves and the MS8 blends it seamlessly so their is no hint that the bass is coming from the rear. With a quality center my imaging is fantastic and because I'm in a convertible fighting wind and road noise it's great having 6 drivers up high where I can really hear them.


----------



## jgarcia1925

KillerBox said:


> I read the same posts and just installed mine about four months ago. I running my MS8 in full 7.1 Logic with all channels powered by three Arc Audio 1200.6 xDI amps.
> 
> All I can say is the MS-8 has been flawless. I ran the setup about 5 times while making small changes to see if I could improve the sound and then went with what sounded the best.
> 
> 1.) If you have RCA output, test your headunits output power see where 2v output might be. On my 5v Kenwood headunit with everything set flat, it only output 2.1v and was distortion free up to 39 out of 40 on the volume.
> 
> 2.) Ran the RCAs directly from the headunit to the amps and set the amps gains with the highest undistorted output. I used 0% overlap on my small 4" center channel speakers and 4" speakers behind my 3rd row seats, 3% overlap on my 6.5" front door, rear door speakers and subwoofers. I know people say that you can run more overlap than that but, I am overdriving everything except the subwoofers and didn't want any clipping.
> 
> 3.) Used a microphone and ears to level match my speakers to the same volume output. My speakers were chosen from the same company with similar specs, so there wasn't any major adjustments.
> 
> 4.) Hooked MS8 into the signal chain. Very simple to walk through its set up and adjustments.
> 
> 5.) My tip: Don't try to drive your mids and highs to the lowest frequency limits. Example my 6.5" have 73hz Fs but, I found that they sounded better being crossed over at 85hz @ 24db slope. In my system everything ran better at 24db slopes.
> 
> 6.) Don't have any major flaws in your set up frequency response before you install the MS-8 or it will try its best to compensate.
> 
> 7.) In my system, I did my MS8 sweeps at a -35 on the MS8 control. The sweeps should be done at around a 85db level and in a quiet location. I also would recommend with the car engine off and windows rolled up.
> 
> 7.) I use my headunit volume control for everything and leave the MS8 at -6 on the volume control. My settings on the MS-8: Seat: front, Logic 7: on, Processing: active & my subwoofer level -4 (because my subwoofer volume was too much)
> 
> 8.) I know everything sound complicated but, it really isn't. I absolutely love what the MS-8 does for my system. I don't know how it could sound any better and without it I don't think I could have ever achieved this sound quality.





TheHulk9er said:


> I have been using an MS8 since it first came out and love it. I echo what was said in the prior post especially about keeping all your drivers in their sweet spot and not trying to run them too low or stretch them to play outside their capabilities. When drivers stay within their capabilities their dispersion is wide and clean. For me my system took a giant leap once I was able to do a quality center channel and add an amp to run all my drivers active (except for rear fill). Because of the way the MS8 blends the sub with the front mid bass drivers it's best to let the sub play up higher as it's far more capable with the bottom two octaves and the MS8 blends it seamlessly so their is no hint that the bass is coming from the rear. With a quality center my imaging is fantastic and because I'm in a convertible fighting wind and road noise it's great having 6 drivers up high where I can really hear them.



thanks gentlemen for the encouragement, like i said im more afraid of getting into the install and finding out something is crapped out on it. 

I am truly looking forward to getting into this world of SQ, i used to work in the industry but i only did some basic things for the main part and mostly remote starts. the install doesnt seem to be very hard. 

i know the tuning will probably take some time to et used to, (and for the time being it may not sound the best since i plan on using the internal amp of the MS8 to power the factory component system. 


I have yet to decide what route i want to go, part of me wants to do a three way system, another part wants to just keep the 2way up front and go active. 

if i do the threeway, i may end up using the crossover supplied (i.e. the precision power crossover for the 3-way system they have. 

I also do not want to spend an arm and a leg on this as well.


----------



## TheHulk9er

Using the MS8 to power your factory system is a great start. Adding a sub and a 2 way component set powered by a multi-channel amp would be my next step. Next I would replace the factory head unit with an aftermarket unit as getting a strong 2-4 volt signal to your MS8 will also help a lot.


----------



## FordEscape

TheHulk9er said:


> ..... Next I would replace the factory head unit with an aftermarket unit as getting a strong 2-4 volt signal to your MS8 will also help a lot.


I respectfully suggest that you and other readers revisit this post by Andy "Too much has been made over the years about gain and level setting."

IMHO that post makes it explicitly clear why HU output voltage is *not* a factor in getting excellent results with the MS-8 (with rare exception) and in fact any HU output over 2.8 volts is a waste.

Undistorted full-range HU output _is_. IMHO those factors are the only reasons one needs to consider HU replacement from an SQ standpoint when using the MS-8, *not* HU output voltage. 

IMHO many modern OEM HU's provide a perfectly good SQ source signal for the MS-8 and there's no reason to sacrifice the integrated car features, convenience, aesthetics or cost associated with replacing many OEM HUs. Certainly no reason based on output voltage alone.


----------



## TheHulk9er

FordEscape said:


> I respectfully suggest that you and other readers revisit this post by Andy "Too much has been made over the years about gain and level setting."
> 
> IMHO that post makes it explicitly clear why HU output voltage is *not* a factor in getting excellent results with the MS-8.
> 
> Undistorted full-range HU output _is_. IMHO those factors are the only reasons one needs to consider HU replacement from an SQ standpoint when using the MS-8, *not* HU output voltage.
> 
> IMHO many modern OEM HU's provide a perfectly good SQ source signal for the MS-8 and there's no reason to sacrifice the integrated car features, convenience, aesthetics or cost associated with replacing many OEM HUs. Certainly no reason based on output voltage alone.


That may be true with newer models but I can tell you it made a massive difference in my system when I replaced the factory head unit. Like night and day difference. The MS8 works best when it gets a good clean signal which a factory system may or may not do. As far as cost you can now buy a decent aftermarket head unit for less than $100 (and even less used). If you are looking for the best sound quality aftermarket units will give you better DA converters, USB connections, blue-tooth, etc. It of course depends on your factory unit and how you plan to use it but I guarantee you you will not find any high end (competition) systems using the factory heads. If all you want to do is blue-tooth mp3 into your car then your factory head will probably be fine.


----------



## FordEscape

TheHulk9er said:


> That may be true with newer models but I can tell you it made a massive difference in my system when I replaced the factory head unit. Like night and day difference. The MS8 works best when it gets a good clean signal which a factory system may or may not do. As far as cost you can now buy a decent aftermarket head unit for less than $100 (and even less used). If you are looking for the best sound quality aftermarket units will give you better DA converters, USB connections, blue-tooth, etc. It of course depends on your factory unit and how you plan to use it but I guarantee you you will not find any high end (competition) systems using the factory heads. If all you want to do is blue-tooth mp3 into your car then your factory head will probably be fine.


Fine, but all of those reasons are different from output voltage which is what you gave as the reason for an HU replacement in post 12257. It was that stated reason that IMHO deserved the clarification provided by Andy's post I linked.


----------



## jgarcia1925

TheHulk9er said:


> Using the MS8 to power your factory system is a great start. Adding a sub and a 2 way component set powered by a multi-channel amp would be my next step. Next I would replace the factory head unit with an aftermarket unit as getting a strong 2-4 volt signal to your MS8 will also help a lot.


yeah, i have a sub already in a side mounted box i made. and also i bought one ms5001 new and a used msa1004 that i want to either use active or in another component configuration. 

i just have to get to the point of replacing some wiring, finsding a t harness for my car and testing out this ms8 to see if everything even works. life has gotten the better of me lately and between looong hours at work and planning for a wedding and a house, i have been left with nothing.


----------



## TheHulk9er

FordEscape said:


> Fine, but all of those reasons are different from output voltage which is what you gave as the reason for an HU replacement in post 12257. It was that stated reason that IMHO deserved the clarification provided by Andy's post I linked.


You are correct in that I should have been more clear with my statement about signal strength and clarity. My main problem with using my factory head in my BMW was trying to use the auto tune with high level inputs. It never seemed to work as well with my BMW. This could have been peculiar to my BMW factory set up - I really don't know for sure. I just know when I added an aftermarket head it all just worked better and the auto tune seemed to yield better results. Admittedly my DEH-P80 is also more on the high side with things like ipod controls, extracting the music digitally so it can be processed by the head units better Burr Brown DA converters, and a killer (can you say old school) CD player! :blush: Sorry for the misunderstanding. Hope this clears things up a bit.


----------



## FordEscape

TheHulk9er said:


> You are correct in that I should have been more clear with my statement about signal strength and clarity. My main problem with using my factory head in my BMW was trying to use the auto tune with high level inputs. It never seemed to work as well with my BMW. This could have been peculiar to my BMW factory set up - I really don't know for sure. I just know when I added an aftermarket head it all just worked better and the auto tune seemed to yield better results. Admittedly my DEH-P80 is also more on the high side with things like ipod controls, extracting the music digitally so it can be processed by the head units better Burr Brown DA converters, and a killer (can you say old school) CD player! :blush: Sorry for the misunderstanding. Hope this clears things up a bit.


Hey, no worries 

I'm pretty sure that jgarcia1925's MK6 GTI has an OEM system with a big touchscreen and significant OEM integration like steering wheel controls and it has the nice things like USB input, etc., maybe even the NAV option as part of the HU. While an aftermarket HU can probably be installed that retains those nice (for daily drivers, admittedly less important for SQ competition cars) features using installation aids like Maestro or similar, that can be an intimidating threshold for some.

Having said that I've no idea of the basic but critical SQ that unit delivers - that certainly deserves investigating at some point if he hopes to get _best_ performance with his upgrades. 

In my case, for example, my OEM Ford HU (ACM in Ford parlance) delivers a 'clean' unclipped signal, 20Hz-20kHz, at all HU volume settings (I got curious and tested it pretty extensively using using a huge range of discrete frequency test tones and pink/white noise tones with an O-scope on the HU outputs). I ran for several years with high level (the default OEM speaker outputs) feeding my MS-8 and had great results. After the reprogramming hacks for my HU were publicized I changed it to low-level output and ran to the RCA inputs on the MS-8. Honestly, I don't think it made a bit of difference in the overall system SQ or 'tune-ability' with my MS-8. I happen to use lossless format files on media via OEM USB input for all my tunes, but MPx format and BT input is supported. Maybe not up to competition level but my OEM HU + MS-8 has consistently delivered an outrageously good listening experience for my ears. 

Does it have the best DA converter chips and pre-amp circuitry? Nope, I'm sure not, but short of rigorous competition maybe that's not so critical for most daily drivers.

I just didn't want anyone left with the impression that HU replacement is an 'automatic necessity' to fully enjoy their MS-8 experience ..... the benefit of an HU replacement varies a lot depending on one's OEM HU situation and IMHO that requires investigating on a vehicle specific basis to determine.

Bottom line, I think you and I are on the same page: we're both big fans of the MS-8 and want to do all we can to help others overcome any hesitation about installing one so they can enjoy all the great sound it offers


----------



## Mike-G

So much information...

I will be installing my MS8 into my Chevy Traverse in the coming weeks and am excited to set it up and hear it in operation. 

System will consist of:
Pioneer AVH-4201NEX
JBL MS8
AudioFrog GS60/GS10 in doors/pillars running active
Center: likely going to be an AudioFrog GS42, but looking at options
Rear doors and 3rd row will be run in parallel for 2 ohm load and run off 2 channels of the MS8
Rear Doors: Will be getting some 6.5 coaxials
Rear 3rd Row: Will be getting some 3.5" coaxials
Amps:
Kenwood XR-400-4 (3 of 4 channels @ 75W powering the GS10s and the GS42)
Kenwood XR900-5 (Bridged running 150x2 to the GS60 and 400x1 for the sub)
Sub will be a SI BM MKV when they are released.


----------



## Lanson

Mike-G said:


> So much information...
> 
> I will be installing my MS8 into my Chevy Traverse in the coming weeks and am excited to set it up and hear it in operation.
> 
> System will consist of:
> Pioneer AVH-4201NEX
> JBL MS8
> AudioFrog GS60/GS10 in doors/pillars running active
> Center: likely going to be an AudioFrog GS42, but looking at options
> Rear doors and 3rd row will be run in parallel for 2 ohm load and run off 2 channels of the MS8
> Rear Doors: Will be getting some 6.5 coaxials
> Rear 3rd Row: Will be getting some 3.5" coaxials
> Amps:
> Kenwood XR-400-4 (3 of 4 channels @ 75W powering the GS10s and the GS42)
> Kenwood XR900-5 (Bridged running 150x2 to the GS60 and 400x1 for the sub)
> Sub will be a SI BM MKV when they are released.


First remember (you probably already do) that you never want to run the RCA's and the speaker outputs at the same time, for the same channel. That'll ruin something. 

Second, based on experience, I would run a tiny 4 channel amp that can take single stereo in, and output to all 4 channels (like most 4 channel amps can.) Or use y-splitters. Take this amp, power your rear doors and 3rd row speakers, and use the crossovers and gain dials in the amp to dial in a nice soft output for the 3rd row speakers vs. the rear doors. This will result in more control, less distortion, and less stress on the MS-8. I used a tiny Power Acoustik Crypt amp and it's great. You can expect almost any good 4 channel amp to serve this purpose. I set my crossover on my amp much higher for my 3rd row speakers, about 350hz, because they are 3 1/2s. The rear doors are 6.5's so per MS-8 crossover I set that to 110hz (which is high but smart for rear on MS-8 builds, because the signal for rear surround is phased out differently than the front (for the ambient effects), and you don't want to f-up the bass response up front). So doing that, the MS-8 picked up on the setup and made it sound pretty great even in the back seats.

edit:
I would recommend from experience its better to let the MS8 process, and amps amplify. It causes less stress on the MS8, sounds better, gets louder if you need it. Just using basic simple tiny amps for low power needs is fine, they still sound better than the MS8 when pushed a bit. Stressing the MS8 is the last thing we want to do, given they are discontinued, hard to repair, etc.


----------



## Mike-G

fourthmeal said:


> First remember (you probably already do) that you never want to run the RCA's and the speaker outputs at the same time, for the same channel. That'll ruin something.
> 
> Second, based on experience, I would run a tiny 4 channel amp that can take single stereo in, and output to all 4 channels (like most 4 channel amps can.) Or use y-splitters. Take this amp, power your rear doors and 3rd row speakers, and use the crossovers and gain dials in the amp to dial in a nice soft output for the 3rd row speakers vs. the rear doors. This will result in more control, less distortion, and less stress on the MS-8. I used a tiny Power Acoustik Crypt amp and it's great. You can expect almost any good 4 channel amp to serve this purpose. I set my crossover on my amp much higher for my 3rd row speakers, about 350hz, because they are 3 1/2s. The rear doors are 6.5's so per MS-8 crossover I set that to 110hz (which is high but smart for rear on MS-8 builds, because the signal for rear surround is phased out differently than the front (for the ambient effects), and you don't want to f-up the bass response up front). So doing that, the MS-8 picked up on the setup and made it sound pretty great even in the back seats.
> 
> edit:
> I would recommend from experience its better to let the MS8 process, and amps amplify. It causes less stress on the MS8, sounds better, gets louder if you need it. Just using basic simple tiny amps for low power needs is fine, they still sound better than the MS8 when pushed a bit. Stressing the MS8 is the last thing we want to do, given they are discontinued, hard to repair, etc.


Thanks, I will take that into serious consideration.


----------



## jgarcia1925

FordEscape said:


> Hey, no worries
> 
> I'm pretty sure that jgarcia1925's MK6 GTI has an OEM system with a big touchscreen and significant OEM integration like steering wheel controls and it has the nice things like USB input, etc., maybe even the NAV option as part of the HU. While an aftermarket HU can probably be installed that retains those nice (for daily drivers, admittedly less important for SQ competition cars) features using installation aids like Maestro or similar, that can be an intimidating threshold for some.
> 
> Having said that I've no idea of the basic but critical SQ that unit delivers - that certainly deserves investigating at some point if he hopes to get _best_ performance with his upgrades.
> 
> In my case, for example, my OEM Ford HU (ACM in Ford parlance) delivers a 'clean' unclipped signal, 20Hz-20kHz, at all HU volume settings (I got curious and tested it pretty extensively using using a huge range of discrete frequency test tones and pink/white noise tones with an O-scope on the HU outputs). I ran for several years with high level (the default OEM speaker outputs) feeding my MS-8 and had great results. After the reprogramming hacks for my HU were publicized I changed it to low-level output and ran to the RCA inputs on the MS-8. Honestly, I don't think it made a bit of difference in the overall system SQ or 'tune-ability' with my MS-8. I happen to use lossless format files on media via OEM USB input for all my tunes, but MPx format and BT input is supported. Maybe not up to competition level but my OEM HU + MS-8 has consistently delivered an outrageously good listening experience for my ears.
> 
> Does it have the best DA converter chips and pre-amp circuitry? Nope, I'm sure not, but short of rigorous competition maybe that's not so critical for most daily drivers.
> 
> I just didn't want anyone left with the impression that HU replacement is an 'automatic necessity' to fully enjoy their MS-8 experience ..... the benefit of an HU replacement varies a lot depending on one's OEM HU situation and IMHO that requires investigating on a vehicle specific basis to determine.
> 
> Bottom line, I think you and I are on the same page: we're both big fans of the MS-8 and want to do all we can to help others overcome any hesitation about installing one so they can enjoy all the great sound it offers


Thanks for somewhat reassuring me everything will be fine lol. 

but yes, i dont plan on taking out the stock unit also. I am hoping all i need to do is the firmware update on it, if the BT echo is present. Also it looks like a lot of people are coding the head unit to another "sound system" setting in order to really get the best signal.


----------



## Force

how to use EZ setup mode???????


----------



## KillerBox

Force said:


> how to use EZ setup mode???????


See my post #12254 for what I did and watch the these two video by Erin Hardison.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILEvpvrH57Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-4AJMmW1PU


Funny story that happened to me this weekend. One my friend's brother is a fanatical home audiophile. I have just meet this guy and we got to talking stereos after a few drinks. So we make it to my SUV so he can have a listen and after listening to the first U2 live song in full JBL MS8 7.1 Logic sound, he was blown away.

He said it sounded as good as his home system that he has been perfecting for 20 years. Needless to say after 1/2 hour of sitting in my SUV, I was getting bored because he wanted to listen to live recorded classical music. 

So I left him with the SUV and went back into the party. Two hours later his wife had to dig him out of the passenger seat of the SUV to take her home.

The next morning (about 7 hours later) the same guy shows up to take pictures and to ask questions. 

In my opinion without hearing his home system, his hindrance is his home system is stereo only and is missing live sound ambiance. 

Most people just want my car system to get loud and couldn't care less what the MS-8 is doing. But, now I know of two people that appreciate the "Magic" of the MS-8!!!


----------



## Lexingtonian

Weird Tuning Issue. I installed my second MS8 this weekend, my first was in my 2016 Explorer (Build Log Here: Overall it has been operating predictably and flawlessly.) 

My second MS8 install was completed this weekend in my Dad's 2015 F150. Driver tuning sounds really good, but front passenger tuning is resulting in some really odd crazy-bass-boosted tuning. Not used to a Driver and Passenger tuning sounding so different on the MS8 and in fact didn't know the MS8 would even do that. Ideas on where to look? It's so night and day it's like I've switched to difference presets. 

A couple things to know.
The MS8 had an owner before me, everything appears to work fine.
I'm using the MS8 Amp for Outputs 1-7 (to drive factory speakers) and RCA Output 8 for Sub to an 8" NVX self-contained powered sub.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## oscardillo

Does anyone know what type of filter the ms8 uses? Butterworth, Linkwitz ¿?


----------



## I800C0LLECT

oscardillo said:


> Does anyone know what type of filter the ms8 uses? Butterworth, Linkwitz ¿?


Here ya go....



> AdamS :
> Crossover Points are in specified in exact Hz. There are min and max frequency values in some places to prevent errors.
> Slopes are 6,12,18, and 24 dB/octave
> We use Linkwitz-Riley wherever applicable, otherwise Butterworth


----------



## SQLnovice

In my last install of the MS-8, I would run the calibration setup with the engine running. I recently did a new install in my current install and did the calibration with the engine off and all my calibrations are 99% to my liking. Whereas before, it was a hit and miss. My bass and everything is at the center of the dash. With my current setup, the stage is a little off center to the right, but I can recalibrate and get in back to the center. 
I just wanted to mention the "engine off" thing just in case someone is doing it that way.


----------



## Lord Raven

I've finally made up my mind to sell my beloved MS8, if anyone is interested then we can deal direct and negotiate price. 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/132474223091


----------



## gumbeelee

SQLnovice said:


> In my last install of the MS-8, I would run the calibration setup with the engine running. I recently did a new install in my current install and did the calibration with the engine off and all my calibrations are 99% to my liking. Whereas before, it was a hit and miss. My bass and everything is at the center of the dash. With my current setup, the stage is a little off center to the right, but I can recalibrate and get in back to the center.
> 
> I just wanted to mention the "engine off" thing just in case someone is doing it that way.




I absolutely agree with this 110% when calibrating with the ms-8; calibrating with the engine off is the only way to go for consistent results


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## FordEscape

You wouldn't do _any_ sort of RTA in your car with the engine running, would you? 

Then why on _earth_ would you expect MS-8 auto-calibration (an acoustic RTA process) to be any different?

Of _course_ you eliminate any and all sources of ambient noise when tuning your system, I'm amazed that anyone would even _consider_ otherwise.


----------



## KillerBox

To try to get the most out of my MS-8, I ran a bunch of different test runs. It definitely sounded the best with the engine off.

Another tip to get the last 1% out of it, cover the front door tweeters while doing the first sweep in each seat position. This might not be as critical to you all the run only front active speakers but, I am using the MS8 in its Logic 7 setup 7.1 and the first sweep is used for location. The idea is to get everything timed aligned to the mids in my three way front door speakers.

On a well recorded live music CD, the MS8 in 7.1 still amazes me! The ambiance sounds like you have the best seats at a live performance.


----------



## SQLnovice

FordEscape said:


> You wouldn't do _any_ sort of RTA in your car with the engine running, would you?
> 
> Then why on _earth_ would you expect MS-8 auto-calibration (an acoustic RTA process) to be any different?
> 
> Of _course_ you eliminate any and all sources of ambient noise when tuning your system, I'm amazed that anyone would even _consider_ otherwise.


My ignorance shows. I don't know anything about using an RTA yet, but will learn soon. This is a learning process for me, I never knew what "active" was until I stumbled upon this site a few years ago.


----------



## SQLnovice

gumbeelee said:


> I absolutely agree with this 110% when calibrating with the ms-8; calibrating with the engine off is the only way to go for consistent results
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yes, all my calibrations now are almost spot on. 



KillerBox said:


> To try to get the most out of my MS-8, I ran a bunch of different test runs. It definitely sounded the best with the engine off.
> 
> Another tip to get the last 1% out of it, cover the front door tweeters while doing the first sweep in each seat position. This might not be as critical to you all the run only front active speakers but, I am using the MS8 in its Logic 7 setup 7.1 and the first sweep is used for location. The idea is to get everything timed aligned to the mids in my three way front door speakers.
> 
> On a well recorded live music CD, the MS8 in 7.1 still amazes me! The ambiance sounds like you have the best seats at a live performance.


7.1 is the goal, I have everything already except for the center channel. I have to install the audio frog gs62 in the rear doors. I'll do as you suggested once I have everything installed.


----------



## FordEscape

SQLnovice said:


> My ignorance shows. I don't know anything about using an RTA yet, but will learn soon. This is a learning process for me, I never knew what "active" was until I stumbled upon this site a few years ago.


I apologize for my harshness.

In "RTA" and in MS-8 "acoustic calibration", one or more sensitive microphones are 'listening' to your environment and using the 'heard sounds' to provide info for system tuning (whether then 'manually adjusted' in the case of most RTA or 'auto tuned' in the case of MS-8). 

In the case of the MS-8 it compares the actual sounds picked-up by the mics during acoustic calibration (playback of a set of known characteristic tones on the calibration CD) to 'ideal sounds' in its internal library and tries to optimize the tune so they 'match' (that's a gross oversimplification, but perhaps you get the concept). 

Any noise source in the environment is picked-up by the mic(s) and very likely will then affect the resultant tune. The mic / RTA tool has no way to know that some of the frequencies it is picking-up are 'noise' that should be ignored .... it must assume that all sound it picks up is part of the audio sound that's being analyzed. So, within reason and capability it's always best to minimize or eliminate 'non-audio system generated sound / noise' in the environment for best results based on the 'audio sounds' one is tuning rather than 'other ambient noise' that can confound the process.


----------



## gumbeelee

FordEscape said:


> I apologize for my harshness.
> 
> 
> 
> In "RTA" and in MS-8 "acoustic calibration", one or more sensitive microphones are 'listening' to your environment and using the 'heard sounds' to provide info for system tuning (whether then 'manually adjusted' in the case of most RTA or 'auto tuned' in the case of MS-8).
> 
> 
> 
> In the case of the MS-8 it compares the actual sounds picked-up by the mics during acoustic calibration (playback of a set of known characteristic tones on the calibration CD) to 'ideal sounds' in its internal library and tries to optimize the tune so they 'match' (that's a gross oversimplification, but perhaps you get the concept).
> 
> 
> 
> Any noise source in the environment is picked-up by the mic(s) and very likely will then affect the resultant tune. So, within reason and capability it's always best to minimize or eliminate 'non-audio system generated sound / noise' in the environment for best results based on the 'audio sounds' one is tuning rather than 'other ambient noise' that can confound the process.




My man hit the nail on the head...i actually tried to rta once with my engine running to give it the ole’ punchers chance just to see the differences, and lets just say they were horrible...u can only imagine the rta mic picking up engine noise, lets just say the 31 band eq was jumping all over the place


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SQLnovice

FordEscape said:


> I apologize for my harshness.
> 
> In "RTA" and in MS-8 "acoustic calibration", one or more sensitive microphones are 'listening' to your environment and using the 'heard sounds' to provide info for system tuning (whether then 'manually adjusted' in the case of most RTA or 'auto tuned' in the case of MS-8).
> 
> In the case of the MS-8 it compares the actual sounds picked-up by the mics during acoustic calibration (playback of a set of known characteristic tones on the calibration CD) to 'ideal sounds' in its internal library and tries to optimize the tune so they 'match' (that's a gross oversimplification, but perhaps you get the concept).
> 
> Any noise source in the environment is picked-up by the mic(s) and very likely will then affect the resultant tune. The mic / RTA tool has no way to know that some of the frequencies it is picking-up are 'noise' that should be ignored .... it must assume that all sound it picks up is part of the audio sound that's being analyzed. So, within reason and capability it's always best to minimize or eliminate 'non-audio system generated sound / noise' in the environment for best results based on the 'audio sounds' one is tuning rather than 'other ambient noise' that can confound the process.


No, thanks a bunch, I really appreciate the few emails we exchanged when I was having some issues. I have that Dayton USB microphone, I need to download REW and start playing around with it. Take a look at my amp rack and you'll see what I'm talking about as far as my "know how" in this area. I definitely have to clean that up. I always start out thinking about all those amp racks in SIS (Bing's) install. But it normally turns out the opposite, lol.


----------



## WilliamS

Anyone know where to help me start. I purchased my ms8 from here and took me over a year to install. My plan was to use the internal amp for my 7 channels and external for subwoofer. I do not have the sub amp yet so I used the 8th channel. Made everything pretty, powered up, went through full setup, then the issue. Went to the testing with the microphones and no sound output. The input test at about volume on 26 on my Rams 8.4N everything says ok so moves to next step. No output on the test, if I use the secret menu also no sound on bypass.

I have a bypass harness that jumps from the radio output wires to go back into the factory speaker as I did the install over months. Is it common for the internal amp to go bad?


----------



## FordEscape

WilliamS said:


> ..... Is it common for the internal amp to go bad?


"Common" .... no; possible .... yes.

If you hadn't already, on the MS8 remote go to Systems Settings>Restore factory defaults and restore the defaults. Start again with the setup process.

If still 'no joy' ....

I'd first do a (system-off) simple continuity check from the speaker out at the MS-8 to the speaker-side of the connector at the re-route harness you used, for both + and - of each speaker output channel.

In other words, re-verify that you have a complete circuit from the MS-8 to the point where you tie it's output back to the OEM speaker harness for each speaker channel.


----------



## WilliamS

FordEscape said:


> "Common" .... no; possible .... yes.
> 
> I'd first do a (system-off) simple continuity check from the speaker out at the MS-8 to the speaker-side of the connector at the re-route harness you used, for both + and - of each speaker output channel.
> 
> In other words, re-verify that you have a complete circuit from the MS-8 to the point where you tie it's output back to the OEM speaker harness for each speaker channel.


Yup went over that harness about a dozen times. I know i have input, on the RCA I can attach my multimeter and run the pass through test with a test tone and see a small output but on the amp side I get nothing. When I test the RCA jacks for output Im only seeing it go from .003 volt to .1 volt when using pass through. I thought the output voltage was 2v? Maybe I didnt have the headunit up but the MS8 volume was maxed


----------



## FordEscape

WilliamS said:


> Yup went over that harness about a dozen times. I know i have input, on the RCA I can attach my multimeter and run the pass through test with a test tone and see a small output but on the amp side I get nothing. When I test the RCA jacks for output Im only seeing it go from .003 volt to .1 volt when using pass through. I thought the output voltage was 2v? Maybe I didnt have the headunit up but the MS8 volume was maxed


Any such test absolute result (AC volts measured value) will depend on test tone level, HU level and MS8 level, so for your current purpose I'd not get hang-up on the specific number. 

But yes, in 'hidden menu bypass mode', you should see _some_ varying AC volt value on the MS8 speaker output with the MS8 master volume at max as you roll the HU volume from min-to-max.

Have you done a 'reset' using both the button on the MS8 and the menu 'restore factory defaults' ?


----------



## JVD240

What "bypass harness" are you using?

I had nothing but issues with the 8.4AN system initially. I disconnected rear low level signal in the factory system before and it muted everything.

Ended up using high level speaker outputs POST stock amplifier to feed the MS-8.


----------



## WilliamS

FordEscape said:


> Any such test absolute result (AC volts measured value) will depend on test tone level, HU level and MS8 level, so for your current purpose I'd not get hang-up on the specific number.
> 
> But yes, in 'hidden menu bypass mode', you should see _some_ varying AC volt value on the MS8 speaker output with the MS8 master volume at max as you roll the HU volume from min-to-max.
> 
> Have you done a 'reset' using both the button on the MS8 and the menu 'restore factory defaults' ?


Did a reset out of the gate on first power, as well when I had no output did once again. Mine is the non amplifed for what its worth.



JVD240 said:


> What "bypass harness" are you using?
> 
> I had nothing but issues with the 8.4AN system initially. I disconnected rear low level signal in the factory system before and it muted everything.
> 
> Ended up using high level speaker outputs POST stock amplifier to feed the MS-8.


I made a harness that uses the molex connections and plugs in-between so I can bypass and the headunit is attached to the factory speakers as if it were from the factory. Ive been doing this for a few months a few things at a time, so the bypass harness which I had hoped I wouldnt need anymore came in handy when nothing worked!


----------



## dengland

WilliamS said:


> Anyone know where to help me start. The input test at about volume on 26 on my Rams 8.4N everything says ok so moves to next step. No output on the test, if I use the secret menu also no sound on bypass.
> 
> I have a bypass harness that jumps from the radio output wires to go back into the factory speaker as I did the install over months. Is it common for the internal amp to go bad?


One thing you may want to try is see if you see audio on the RCA jacks. That will bypass the internal amp(s). (I have a small 2 channel amp that I use for my computer that I carted out to the car and powered from 120V when I was trying to check phase. It was like $20 on Amazon.)

I don't think it is going to be the Amplifier stage of the MS-8. All 8 channels should not go bad. I am prety sure all they have in common is power.


----------



## WilliamS

dengland said:


> One thing you may want to try is see if you see audio on the RCA jacks. That will bypass the internal amp(s). (I have a small 2 channel amp that I use for my computer that I carted out to the car and powered from 120V when I was trying to check phase. It was like $20 on Amazon.)
> 
> I don't think it is going to be the Amplifier stage of the MS-8. All 8 channels should not go bad. I am prety sure all they have in common is power.


I will find out Wednesday when I have time. In order to get to it I have to take out the back seat of my truck as its all mounted on the back wall. I have 2 amps to replace the channels if needed. If the MS8 is bad I will use the amps instead and not have the processing I had hoped for, which really pisses me off.


----------



## FordEscape

WilliamS said:


> .... I have 2 amps to replace the channels if needed. If the MS8 is bad I will use the amps instead and not have the processing I had hoped for, which really pisses me off.


If only the MS8 _amp_ section is bad, you'll still have _all_ the "processing" it offers.

I do understand why you'd be PO'd about not getting the amp output you thought you'd get, and/or being sold a unit that wasn't what you thought was represented, but that's not the same as losing the great signal processing features the MS8 provides.


----------



## WilliamS

FordEscape said:


> If only the MS8 _amp_ section is bad, you'll still have _all_ the "processing" it offers.
> 
> I do understand why you'd be PO'd about not getting the amp output you thought you'd get, and/or being sold a unit that wasn't what you thought was represented, but that's not the same as losing the great signal processing features the MS8 provides.



The hope was all in one, but no that already failed me. I hope the RCA's and processing works but my hopes are not that great at this time for it.


----------



## gumbeelee

WilliamS said:


> The hope was all in one, but no that already failed me. I hope the RCA's and processing works but my hopes are not that great at this time for it.




This is not common issue but I have several ms-8’s I purchased from a lot auction that the internal amps were bad but everyhing else worked perfect with aftermarket amps. I bet yours will be the exact same way, at least I hope so.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## KillerBox

WilliamS said:


> I hope the RCA's and processing works but my hopes are not that great at this time for it.


William did yours work?


----------



## oscardillo

Hello everyone

What type of filter does ms8 use? butterworth, linkwitz riley, bessel ¿¿???

thanks.


----------



## WilliamS

KillerBox said:


> William did yours work?


No matter what i did regardless of external amps, secret menu pass through, and so on I got nothing. The controller lets me setup and play the test track till I get all OK’s, setup the crossovers and channels and that’s about where it ends. It’s no shock to me they discontinued the MS8. 

And for anyone who needs parts, mine are in the dumpster, and they guy on here that sold it to me, I would avoid Tampa.


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## KillerBox

Sorry to hear that. I would buy the parts from you if you want to recover a little of your money?


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## FordEscape

*Posted 10/11/2016 in Help Picking Drivers Active 2/3 way low power *


WilliamS said:


> Im installing the MS8 in my truck in the coming weeks on the factory speakers. *While I do not need the anti MS8 band-wagoners on me*, I would like some opinions of low power drivers vs amping with higher power drivers......


*Posted 1/9/2017 in this JBL's MS-8 processor! thread*


WilliamS said:


> I had that exact problem when I had the subs too low compared to the rest before I ran the auto tune. Gave them a little more power then re-ran the auto tune and it leveled out.





WilliamS said:


> looks to me you need to redo the starting part of the calibration setting the level for the subwoofers. just went through that mess. You need to get the output matched across the board before you run the auto tune.


*Posted 2/21/18 in this JBL's MS-8 processor! thread*


WilliamS said:


> No matter what i did regardless of external amps, secret menu pass through, and so on I got nothing. The controller lets me setup and play the test track till I get all OK’s, setup the crossovers and channels and that’s about where it ends. *It’s no shock to me they discontinued the MS8.*
> 
> And for anyone who needs parts, mine are in the dumpster, and they guy on here that sold it to me, I would avoid Tampa.


So, when we look at this post history we see an evolution from 'don't be an MS8 nay-sayer' to apparently having gotten at least _some_ MS8 through autotune to working and then finally 'no output at all' and becoming an MS8 nay-sayer (based on an apparently defective or damaged used product purchase).

I just was going through @WilliamS 's posts looking for a possible reason for / solution to his problem but instead came up with this puzzling history. Am I misreading? Anyone else find a hint of 'bi-polarity' in any of this?



The symptoms described in the last few posts are so uncharacteristic (though admittedly not impossible) that I'm still left wondering if it isn't likely that there's some sort of problem in this install that's totally unrelated to the MS8. Oh well, it's in the dumpster now (both the MS8 and apparently the member's attitude about the device), so further pursuit is moot I guess.


----------



## oscardillo

oscardillo said:


> Hello everyone
> 
> What type of filter does ms8 use? butterworth, linkwitz riley, bessel ¿¿???
> 
> thanks.


nobody knows?


----------



## FordEscape

oscardillo said:


> Hello everyone
> 
> What type of filter does ms8 use? butterworth, linkwitz riley, bessel ¿¿???
> 
> thanks.


See this ("AdamS" being one of the folks on the JBL MS8 development team) ... 




Tendean17 said:


> .....
> AdamS :
> Crossover Points are in specified in exact Hz. There are min and max frequency values in some places to prevent errors.
> *Slopes are 6,12,18, and 24 dB/octave
> We use Linkwitz-Riley wherever applicable, otherwise Butterworth*....


----------



## WilliamS

FordEscape said:


> *Posted 10/11/2016 in Help Picking Drivers Active 2/3 way low power *
> 
> 
> *Posted 1/9/2017 in this JBL's MS-8 processor! thread*
> 
> 
> *Posted 2/21/18 in this JBL's MS-8 processor! thread*
> 
> 
> So, when we look at this post history we see an evolution from 'don't be an MS8 nay-sayer' to apparently having gotten at least _some_ MS8 through autotune to working and then finally 'no output at all' and becoming an MS8 nay-sayer (based on an apparently defective or damaged used product purchase).
> 
> I just was going through @WilliamS 's posts looking for a possible reason for / solution to his problem but instead came up with this puzzling history. Am I misreading? Anyone else find a hint of 'bi-polarity' in any of this?
> 
> 
> 
> The symptoms described in the last few posts are so uncharacteristic (though admittedly not impossible) that I'm still left wondering if it isn't likely that there's some sort of problem in this install that's totally unrelated to the MS8. Oh well, it's in the dumpster now (both the MS8 and apparently the member's attitude about the device), so further pursuit is moot I guess.


Well you see how long it took me to get it all together.

Autotune never worked, dont know where you read that. When I got to that point it was dead silent. So input works, calibration from radio for levels works, but no matter what I did regardless internal amp or external there is no output. It would tell me to attach microphones, then look at the mirror, dead silent. Did this wired using both internal and external amps. 

I made a bypass harness so I could do the install over time which became the only way to have a working radio. The harness was simple as it went between the 2 MS8 harness to route the radio output back to the factory speakers which work perfect so its no the harness. What else could it be?

Using the same exact wiring, just removing the ms8 harnesses from them I used a 5 channel amp and had sound? So my wiring was fine, power was fine, remote wire fine as Im using the exact same wires and now it all works.

I really wanted the MS8 to work I did. Ive never run full active and was really looking forward to it. I know the MS8 is a good gateway drug to the higher end stuff I might have got lucky but not getting that sound quality high I wanted.

And to end it, of course Im pissed off, the more I read into the MS8 the more I see people with problems, then there are hundreds on sale for parts only. I wish I had the room for a processor, amps, and so on. The MS8 fit perfectly behind my seat, filled the gap of all channels and processor. 

I still need an external crossover of some sort as now with all my front channels running I have a crazy amount of mid range I need to tame.


----------



## oscardillo

Thank you very much friend.

Now I have it clear. I understand why in the ms8 user manual recommend cuts in 4 order.

1º order: Butterworth
2 º order: LR
3 º order: Butterworth
4 º order: LR


----------



## WuTangForever

Hey Guys,

Its been awhile since I posted in here but I was wondering if you all could help me out.

About 1.5-2 years ago I finally got my MS-8 working beautifully, thanks to this thread. It took hours and hours of work over a couple of months to get it perfect but it was glorious, I have never heard any system sound like mine did for the time it was working properly. I now know that the only people who talk crap about the MS-8 are those who never had the pleasure of having it hooked up correctly.

I started running into a couple of problems that got me so discouraged I just flat gave up trying and it has since gotten worse. I am now finally ready to try to get it back to its former glory. The main problem now is, my MS-8 restarts every 30 seconds or so, saying the voltage is too low. Anyone else have this problem and if so, how do I fix it?

I have it hooked up to my stock HU in a 2004 Acura TL, I went through some difficulty finally getting the shop to listen to me on how to hook it up correctly but I do know it was done properly (not using the RCA inputs if I remember correctly). Do I just need to check the wiring?

Any help would be appreciated!


----------



## chuyler1

Voltage too low? Mine used to say voltage too high, so I took a pair of diodes and placed them in line with the power cable to step the voltage down a little. I never found a permanent solution other than to send it back to JBL. I didn’t bother and that was back in 2014. It has been working fine since.


----------



## Lord Raven

I sold my MS8 after about 6 years of use, it was perfect all this time and I will miss it  Unsubscribing from the thread now, thank you all!


----------



## chuyler1

I still feel the unit serves its purpose today with little competition. Is there a unit on the market that:
1) offers 8 powered channels
2) can sum factory channels into a full range signal
3) can auto tune everything once crossover points are chosen?

Sure, the interface sucks...but I haven’t touched mine in 4 years. I’m pretty sure the remote’s battery is dead.


----------



## FordEscape

chuyler1 said:


> ..... I’m pretty sure the remote’s battery is dead.


Um, there's no battery in the remote, it's wired and powered from the main unit 

If you want to list the truly distinguishing MS8 characteristics IMHO ... 
1. "Autotune"
2. Logic 7 (a few Dolby competitors)
3. Upmixed 'true' center channel

Hey, I like my MS8 a lot, but I'm very willing to admit / suggest it's not for everyone.


----------



## chuyler1

The screen is hardwired, but the remote is not. Are we talking about the same unit here?

I don’t really notice the Logic7 anymore, but maybe my rear speaker placement in the doors isn’t optimal. I do notice the unit sounds horrible when HD radio loses signal and it reverts back to standard FM. I have the center channel wired in, but I feel like the stage was a little better without it (maybe not for passengers, but certainly the driver).


----------



## KillerBox

chuyler1 said:


> I don’t really notice the Logic7 anymore, but maybe my rear speaker placement in the doors isn’t optimal. I do notice the unit sounds horrible when HD radio loses signal and it reverts back to standard FM. I have the center channel wired in, but I feel like the stage was a little better without it (maybe not for passengers, but certainly the driver).


Turn down your center channel if you think the stage narrowed on you.

I am running the MS8 in full 7.1 mode & on studio recorded music it sounds a better with the Logic 7 turned on. But if you really want to hear what it can do, find a well recorded live album and it is the most realistic sound experience that I have ever had in a car.

It sounds like you have the perfect seats during a live performance! I love that sound so much that I bought a few MS-8 as backup units until something better comes out. I couldn't ever be happy with regular stereo sound again.


----------



## chuyler1

I do have the center turned down, whatever the recommended setting was at the time. It could possibly be the speaker placement. I have three 3” full range drivers in the dash that play down to 200Hz I think (maybe 300Hz, I forget what I finally settled on). They fire straight up, nothing fancy. 8” woofers in the doors take over from there, and the factory rear door speakers high passed at 150Hz finish out the Logic7.


----------



## KillerBox

chuyler1 said:


> 8” woofers in the doors take over from there, and the factory rear door speakers high passed at 150Hz finish out the Logic7.


What mids and highs do you have in the front doors beside an 8" woofer?


----------



## chuyler1

KillerBox said:


> What mids and highs do you have in the front doors beside an 8" woofer?



3 x Fostex FF85WK 3” full rangers
2 x Hi-Vi M8a 8” alloy cone woofers
That’s all. No amps, all powered by MS8, which gets audio from the factory radio.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

I like this. I want to hear it 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## FordEscape

chuyler1 said:


> The screen is hardwired, but the remote is not. Are we talking about the same unit here?)


You are of course correct. :blush: Please excuse the olde phart who like you hasn't touched his remote in eons and is obviously suffering brain-lapse today 



chuyler1 said:


> I don’t really notice the Logic7 anymore, but maybe my rear speaker placement in the doors isn’t optimal. I do notice the unit sounds horrible when HD radio loses signal and it reverts back to standard FM. I have the center channel wired in, but I feel like the stage was a little better without it (maybe not for passengers, but certainly the driver).


Feel about the same w and w/o center .... I've gone back-and-forth, currently using it. To me it doesn't 'narrow' the stage as much as make it a tad 'shallower' for the 'driver optimized' position. 

But I do like the Logic 7 ambience all the time.


----------



## chuyler1

Well it just pulls the vocals right to the center, like they are coming right out of that speaker...vs the illusion of the vocals being out on your hood or beyond.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Isn't that a sign of mono recording?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## KillerBox

FordEscape said:


> Feel about the same w and w/o center .... I've gone back-and-forth, currently using it. To me it doesn't 'narrow' the stage as much as make it a tad 'shallower' for the 'driver optimized' position.
> 
> But I do like the Logic 7 ambience all the time.


Do you have your center channel speakers firing up & into the windshield?


----------



## FordEscape

KillerBox said:


> Do you have your center channel speakers firing up & into the windshield?


Yes, they're under the oversize OEM grille, center top of dash up-firing into the windshield. Keeping OEM appearance is a project priority for me so I'll live with whatever compromises that entails. 

Center is HAT L1v2 and L3v2, arranged 'fore-and-aft', the tweeter is in front so it's closer to the steeply-sloping windshield. 

Configured as "one-way" on the MS8 (uses one output channel), On the MS8 I set the Center High Pass at 140Hz, the lowest recommended by HAT for the L3v2, 24dB slope. 

Bi-amped using 2 channels of an MS-A1004 amp so the cross between the L3>L1 is handled by the amp and each speaker level can be adjusted using the output level controls on that amp separately.

With this configuration I can tweak the 2-way center XO and individual speaker levels without running MS8 recalibration, and have tweaked those a fair amount over time with lots of listening between changes. There's lots of FR overlap between the L3 and L1 so that seems happiest at about 6kHz, well-within the comfort zone of each driver.

I've played with the individual speaker levels at the amp quite a bit and honestly think that now it's about as 'optimal' as I can get it for my tastes. Definitely a better overall setup for driver and passenger occupancy, perhaps _slightly_ compromised 'stage-depth' compared to no-center for the driver only configuration.

I don't feel "all voices" are in the center .... that varies a _lot_ depending on the recording IMHO. I do feel that as far as left-to-right staging the voices and instruments are well-located 'as recorded'.

FWIW the A-pillars are the same as the center and the in-door woofers are TM65's (first gen). I do run rear fill with speakers in the rear door OEM locations (low-mount woofer, tweeter high in the rear doors, close to ear level as possible).

So, here's the total configuration:
MS8 two-way front (4 CH); actually 3-way with bi-amp pillars managed by the amp. HAT L1v2, L3v2, TM65.
MS8 1-way center (1 CH); actually 2-way managed by the amp. HAT L1v2, L3v2.
MS8 1-way rear (2 CH); actually 2-way managed by the amp. HAT L1v2, Clarus C6 woofer.
MS8 1-sub (1 CH); actually a pair of BMmkIV on 2xMS-A5001
So, all 8 MS8 outputs used with a total of 14 all-active XO speakers. 3xMS-A1004 amps, 2xMS-A5001 amps.

Maybe it 'reads' a bit complicated but actually it's not given the tremendous flexibility of the MS-A amps; yeah. lots of speakers but all are able to run well-within their frequency response comfort zones. 

Overall I'm happy with it, it's been a long step-by-step evolution and fun retirement learning project over the last few years.

Comments welcome of course.


----------



## jgarcia1925

Hey all, 

Been a little while since I’ve posted on this thread. However my dreams of using the MS8 on my old car have become a loss. Totaled the car this winter. Now I moved on to a 09 Ford Focus that is in dire need of a makeover. Will be strictly on a budget. 

I have a quick question tho, I have a chance to grab a pioneer SPH-DA120 for really really cheap. (Basically an NEX Radio, with no CD Player), and I’m wondering if anyone had used the files from the CD on a thumb drive, i thought I have seen that someone said it was fine one this thread. Can anyone confirm if they have used a USB to tune?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jerry236

I drive a 2005 chevy tahoe that i would like to install my ms-8 in. . My truck doesnt have I factory center channel speaker location, but I planned on fabricating one because of how important it is to get this unit to operate at its full potential. Looking at this unit more than 10 years later, Is it worth the trouble of trying to get this thing to work. Or are they're better options for DSP's out there?


----------



## FordEscape

jerry236 said:


> ...Or are they're *better* options for DSP's out there?


There are _different_ options all with _different_ pros and cons.

Spend any time on this forum (beyond this thread) and you'll find no shortage of lovers and haters for most every DSP on the market, as well as some great balanced commentary on respective pros, cons and features of each.

"Better" is largely a BS subjective word .... you need to get off that and look for specific features to meet your needs and wants. Lots of choices out there and likely one will be 'best for _you_'. Obviously many in this thread have found the MS8 to be a good choice for _them_, may or may not be the best choice for _you_.

Suggest you expand your in-depth research to the market at large and do lots of reading about the other choices. Then pay-yer-money and run with whatever you pick.

Since you've already got the MS8, why not run with that? Based on your post history you've not even given it a try and don't know if it'll be any "trouble" at all for you.

IMHO.


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## jerry236

Thank you FordEscape for your insight... I will give the MS-8 a shot. I have the real estate on my dash to accommodate a 6" mid and a tweeter, You think Its worth fabbing up a center channel or should I start out without it?


----------



## FordEscape

Is providing optimal sound for multiple front-seat occupants a high project priority or a secondary feature you'd like to have on occasion?

If the former, might as well go for it from the start. If the latter, I'd start without the center (run wires if that's easier while doing that sort of stuff up front) and evolve to that after getting happy with the no-center setup.

Just IMHO.


----------



## jerry236

Optimal sound would primarily be for me (the driver) ....so for now I'll run the wiring for the center channel. Thank you for the sound advice. 
.


----------



## Jcmamma

I ran without a center for awhile. Sounded good but with logic 7 on, go for the center channel. I finally cut in a 6.5 coaxial for center and it sounds way better. Imo


----------



## jerry236

Jcmamma...curious what speakers you used in your set up?


----------



## Jcmamma

My system is:
HU:AVH 4201 NEX

Amps:Focal FDP 6.900
-Crunch Powerdrive 1000x2
-Rockford Fosgate R500x1D

DSP:JBL MS8

Speakers:
Front-Focal Elite 165 KX3
Center-Focal PC 165F
Rear/side-Focal PS 130F
Sub-MTX 10” 4500 Thunder(x3)

Sound Treatment: Second Skin (5 doors inner/outer)


----------



## cueball981

Hello, after a 2 year absence!

Adding to the thread that just won't die...lol!

After nearly 3 years since I purchased all my equipment, including 1 knee surgery and a major move from Seattle to Phoenix, I'm finally ready to begin my install. Yes, sadly I am a big time procrastinator...sigh.

So, what I'm planning to do is a majority JBL install save the amplifiers. Yes, there are better quality drivers and more reputable brands, but I've decided to stick to a budget and read good reviews of the items I've purchased.

HU: Stock Ford Sony Premium with Sync MFT v.2

Amps: 2x Alpine PDX-V9

DSP: JBL MS-8

Drivers: FS - JBL GTO609C 6.5 mid + 3/4 tw
RF - JBL GTO609 6.5 coax
CC - JBL GTO329 3.5 coax 
SW - 2x JBL GTO1214

Of course I'll be deadening all 4 doors, trunk, and rear deck with plenty of Roadkill, Raamat, and Ensolite.

My plan is to run a full active 2-way front stage from the MS-8. I'm trying to decide though if I should sell one of my PDX-V9's and replace it with a PDX-M12. Here's why...

My thought is the front tweeters, center channel, and rear fill do not require a lot of power, and therefore can run off the MS-8 power of 18watts per channel. Also, since the speakers are rated 3ohm, this should push the output up a little closer to 20 watts per channel. I can then run 100w x 2 for the front midbass, leaving me another 100w x 2 for future upgrades. The M12 would put out 1200watts to the 2 12's, which should be PLENTY of headroom for the sub-stage.

The other option is to keep both V9s to allow even more options for future upgrades. I may decide to change out the MS-8 for something different and add more drivers; possibly moving to a full 3-way active front-stage. I may try my hand at kick-panels or molding the A-pillars like I've seen some do in other late-model Ford installs.

Having 100 x 8 and 500 x 2 gives me a lot to work with. What are your thoughts? Sell the V9 and replace with a M12 or keep both V9's?

Okay, so my final question is there anyone out there running a MS-8 in a Ford Fusion/Escape/Flex/Focus/F150 etc. that has the Sony Premium Sound with MyFordTouch Sync? If so, how are you retaining all functionality of your car's interface/bus features? I know PAC makes the AmpPRO that creates a summed 4 or 5 volt signal. There's also the iDataLink setup that Rockford Fosgate that essentially does the same thing, though adds an integrated DSP.

I would appreciate any advice, or better yet, if someone has an MS-8 installed in their Ford vehicle here in the Phoenix area, I'd love to possibly meet up sometime soon to talk audio. 

Okay, that is all. Thank you for whoever takes a moment to read through my post and looking forward to getting back into the car audio arena! 

Chris


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## KillerBox

In my opinion, the center channel speaker should be equal power & at least equal quality as your front speakers as much as possible.


----------



## cueball981

I wholeheartedly agree about timbre matching drivers. In this case, that little 3.5 coax, which I've already installed running off the stock amp, does an amazing job. I can probably fit the 4.5 coax in there with a little modification to the existing location. The price is pretty cheap right now for the discontinued GTO line through Amazon. 

So, if I do run 100w to each of the mids, tweets, and center, I would probably need to attenuate the tweets and center some, correct? This can be done through the MS-8 or by turning down the input gains. Probably adjusting down the output in the MS-8 is the preferable method though, correct?


----------



## FordEscape

cueball981 said:


> .... Okay, so my final question is there anyone out there running a MS-8 in a Ford Fusion/Escape/Flex/Focus/F150 etc. that has the Sony Premium Sound with MyFordTouch Sync? If so, how are you retaining all functionality of your car's interface/bus features? ....


Mine (2014 Escape SE 2.0) is the non-Sony SYNC2 MFT 8" screen, but I've done this _and all of the following applies to your SYNC2 Sony System_:

Used Forscan and this guide Variable Line Level Preamp Outputs From ACM (Factory Radio) For Amplifier Upgrades to reprogram my ACM for variable-volume line-level output, no EQ, no TA. Info is there to cover both Non-Sony and Sony Systems.

Works like a charm, I've put the O-Scope to my re-programmed ACM outputs and found them flat from 20-20kHz as promised. Put RCA ends on the ACM output wires for channels of interest, plug into MS8 low-level inputs and Bob's yer Uncle.

Nothing changes or is lost in terms of all steering wheel, dashboard, voice command, navigation, phone, alarm tone or any other SYNC2 driver interface feature - all is retained 100% as OEM. 

>>>>>

*NOTICE*: On my Escape the backup alarm tones are only on the rear channel ACM outputs; this can vary among SYNC2 Fords. IF that's your situation, to retain 100% OEM backup alarm functionality you must run both Front _and Rear _ACM outputs to the MS-8. I did not run my ACM 'center' to my MS8. When you do this you *MUST* go through the MS-8 "Input Setup" procedure for 'factory installed stereo' (calibration CD to get 'OK, OK, OK').

IF you do not do that, if you treat the low-level inputs as if it is an 'aftermarket head unit' and "Skip Input Setup", the MS8 will automatically assume you are only using low-level inputs 1&2 and will _ignore_ the rear inputs on 3&4 and you'll not hear your ACM rear-channel backup alarms. This nuance is not clear in the MS8 manual but was made explicit in a post by Andy long ago in this thread.

If you don't need/use the rear outputs from your ACM, only the front on MS8 RCA-in 1&2, you can "Skip Input Setup" with _no_ adverse implications.

BTW, even if your backup alarms are on rear-channel inputs and you don't install/configure a rear (side) output on your MS8, all will come out fine - MS8 will route that one to an available (front) channel actually installed and you can, as with all separate SYNC2 voices and tones, set their volume independently from music level by just adjusting the dashboard volume knob while the specific tone or voice of interest is playing (the OEM SYNC2 procedure for setting each voice/tone volume independent of other volumes).

>>>>

IMHO among the advantages of the 're-programming approach vs the PAC AmPRO approach:
You can completely remove your Sony DSP/amp module (it must remain in-place when using the PAC AmPro)
You have fewer components in your audio chain (ACM>MS8>amps>speakers)
Cons:
Not quite 'plug-and-play' (but still very easy to do in a very 'sanitary' and completely 'restorable' manner with a little attention to details during your install)

The excellent instructions provided by DanMc85 on the linked 2GFusions thread are absolutely proven to work perfectly with the SYNC2 Sony Systems + MS8 combination.

Hope that helps, drop me a PM if you have any questions and I'll try to help, but honestly if you 'read and follow' instructions carefully that won't be needed.


----------



## cueball981

You, sir, deserve a gold star for the day!

Thank you ever so much! This sounds like a MUCH better way to go than having to install another component into the chain of components. I always say the KISS principle is best. Had it my way, I would still have my 2003 Focus which I was able to then use an aftermarket HU (boy, do I miss my 9815 and 9835!) running strait to my SoundStream DII Series and PHX Gold MS275 amps! Alas, that car finally crapped out and now here we are in the age of digital everything.

I will do a lot of reading. Pretty self-sufficient, so will try not to bother reaching out unless absolutely necessary. 

Again, thank you so much for your assistance! 

Are you still running a MS-8 or have you graduated to something newer? Sorry, forgot to check your sig before replying.


----------



## FordEscape

cueball981 said:


> .... Are you still running a MS-8 or have you graduated to something newer? Sorry, forgot to check your sig before replying.


No worries and I don't mind reinforcing that *I'm still lovin' my MS8*  

One other note, if your system has a menu setting for different 'occupancies' set that to "all seats" (as well as setting all fade, balance and tone controls to center of course) before MS8 calibration and then never touch those again. Use only the MS8 menu for different occupancy settings.

Since the re-programming ensures 'flat' ACM output at all volume settings you will use your OEM master volume controls with impunity - your MS8 calibration will always be optimized with zero compromise. I've not touched my MS8 remote control in years, it and my (always connected) MS8 display are buried in my console somewhere


----------



## cueball981

That's good to hear! I drooled back in 2009 when I heard word of the MS-8, but the price steered me away. Then in 2015 I was finally able to afford one and its sat in its box since it arrived via UPS. It's time to hear what all the hype's been about all these years!

Hard to believe the MS-8 is still a heavy hitter in the DSP line-up! Shows the folks behind the unit really knew WTF they were doing!


----------



## cueball981

Any suggestions on an inexpensive FORScan w/ODBLink MX Adapter? I see they can range from the teens all the way up into the hundred range!


----------



## FordEscape

I've got and usually use a cheap clone USB interface ELM I self-modified for switched dual-bus operation years ago; can't make a specific recommendation for those as the clone chip implementations are constantly changing it seems. I also use a ~$75 OBDLink MX Bluetooth; those are predictably reliable IMHO.

This, but google is your friend for shopping, can sometimes find 'em discounted a bit ScanTool 426101 OBDLink MX Bluetooth

I'm running Win 7 Pro 64-bit on a Dell laptop. I use the tools for all sorts of stuff (reprogrammed lighting functions, enabled global remote window open and close, activated bootleg OEM Nav (mine didn't have it from the factory), mechanical diagnostics, etc, etc) using both ForSCAN and Foccccus freeware.


----------



## KillerBox

How accurate is the MS-8 auto tune? 

I have been listening to my full Logic 7.1 system for the past 6 months or so to give everything a chance to break in. Overall I am very pleased with the sound.

Last night I finally had a chance to use my RTA and I started tuning the MS8 to the Harmon Target Curve. I was surprised how far it was off the Harmon curve.

The 32hz and 40hz were extremely loud 15dBs above the average. I cut 32hz and 40hz by 9dBs. I have been knowing my bass was too loud, I cut these frequencies 5dBs months ago just by tuning by ear.

I had to do major cuts from 500hz to 1kHz. I also had to boost 16kHz & 20kHz.


----------



## KillerBox

Over the past 3 days, I have finally had a chance to run my MS-8 in all different configurations. I have listened & measured.

My best RTA measurements were in the “ALL” passenger configuration. My RTA looked great except for my 32hz & 40hz are still very high. I am cutting those frequencies by -9db!

Almost no cutting in the 500hz to 1,000hz region & no boosting 16khz or 20khz either.

My biggest problem is having to boost the 80hz. That is right in my 24dB crossover region. Anyone have any suggestions?


----------



## StabMe

So, what if i like to experiment and would like to add further correction to what MS-8 does on its own.

I can run log sweeps through MS-8 separately through left, right and central channel and take measurements with REW. Then, i can generate FIR filters for each channel separately. Then i can use mid-side plugin and apply those FIR filters my MP3 files to the MID signal and then to the Left-Mid and Right-Mid signal present.

Will this trick allow me to further correct speaker response for left, right and central channel?


----------



## 156546

KillerBox said:


> How accurate is the MS-8 auto tune?
> 
> I have been listening to my full Logic 7.1 system for the past 6 months or so to give everything a chance to break in. Overall I am very pleased with the sound.
> 
> Last night I finally had a chance to use my RTA and I started tuning the MS8 to the Harmon Target Curve. I was surprised how far it was off the Harmon curve.
> 
> The 32hz and 40hz were extremely loud 15dBs above the average. I cut 32hz and 40hz by 9dBs. I have been knowing my bass was too loud, I cut these frequencies 5dBs months ago just by tuning by ear.
> 
> I had to do major cuts from 500hz to 1kHz. I also had to boost 16kHz & 20kHz.


It's worth considering that MS-8 uses a spatial average of 6 microphone locations and what you measure with a single microphone above about 500 Hz is probably going to be pretty different. 

MS-8 uses the level of the subwoofer sweep between 50 and 80 Hz to set the level of the subwoofer channel prior to applying EQ. I would have changed this in an updated version because it sometimes results in too much boost at lower frequencies. Try reversing the polarity of the sub and turn the crossover on the sub amp to it's highest setting.


----------



## 156546

StabMe said:


> So, what if i like to experiment and would like to add further correction to what MS-8 does on its own.
> 
> I can run log sweeps through MS-8 separately through left, right and central channel and take measurements with REW. Then, i can generate FIR filters for each channel separately. Then i can use mid-side plugin and apply those FIR filters my MP3 files to the MID signal and then to the Left-Mid and Right-Mid signal present.
> 
> Will this trick allow me to further correct speaker response for left, right and central channel?


I doubt it. How are you going to encode those channels into stereo so that the correction is only applied to the sides and the rears?


----------



## StabMe

GotFrogs said:


> I doubt it. How are you going to encode those channels into stereo so that the correction is only applied to the sides and the rears?


I was thinking something like this:










So i get the mid signal, invert it and then add it to the left channel. This gives me Left minus Mid. Apply EQ. Same with Right channel. This goes to stereo output. MS-8 supposedly sends that information to left and right channel.

Get the side signal, invert it and then add it to the left and right channel. Apply EQ. This gives me the signal which will then be sent to the central channel by MS-8. Route it back to stereo output.

Sides and rears are untouched. So, the EQ applied to the left and right will also affect the rears. But i can live with that )

But now i think that even if the scheme above works, this still won't work as expected, since MS-8 doesn't completely separate the MID signal from left and right - it attenuates it. So, some part of it will still be sent to left and right channels, but now with the EQ applied.

I think i just gotta test it ) This will tame my inner nerd for a while.


----------



## gumbeelee

StabMe said:


> I was thinking something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So i get the mid signal, invert it and then add it to the left channel. This gives me Left minus Mid. Apply EQ. Same with Right channel. This goes to stereo output. MS-8 supposedly sends that information to left and right channel.
> 
> 
> 
> Get the side signal, invert it and then add it to the left and right channel. Apply EQ. This gives me the signal which will then be sent to the central channel by MS-8. Route it back to stereo output.
> 
> 
> 
> Sides and rears are untouched. So, the EQ applied to the left and right will also affect the rears. But i can live with that )
> 
> 
> 
> But now i think that even if the scheme above works, this still won't work as expected, since MS-8 doesn't completely separate the MID signal from left and right - it attenuates it. So, some part of it will still be sent to left and right channels, but now with the EQ applied.
> 
> 
> 
> I think i just gotta test it ) This will tame my inner nerd for a while.




Wow, let me know how this turns out


Sent from my iPhone X using Tapatalk


----------



## KillerBox

GotFrogs said:


> It's worth considering that MS-8 uses a spatial average of 6 microphone locations and what you measure with a single microphone above about 500 Hz is probably going to be pretty different.
> 
> MS-8 uses the level of the subwoofer sweep between 50 and 80 Hz to set the level of the subwoofer channel prior to applying EQ. I would have changed this in an updated version because it sometimes results in too much boost at lower frequencies. Try reversing the polarity of the sub and turn the crossover on the sub amp to it's highest setting.


I can claim this as a success! Thank you again Andy for your help!! 

I took a measurement before and after I flipped my subwoofer wires with everything else being equal between the two measurements.

I instantaneously gained +3dBs at 80hz and the response below that smoothed out some.

The biggest change is now when I adjust the graphic EQ is that I now have predictable results.

I then reran the MS-8 calibration & it sounds even better! My response curve without adjusting anything is very close to the Harmon Target Curve. I still had to turn down 32hz by -10dB and 40hz by -7dB but, I had to make no other changes.


----------



## KillerBox

Just an FYI for future guys my HeadUnit is Kenwood DDX9903S and according to my SMD DD+1 with everything flat its output doesn't distort until 40 out of 40 on the volume. 

I measured the output at 39 out of 40 and the DD+1 showed 2.1v output even thought the Kenwood is rated 5v output.

So last night I checked my Kenwood output on the MS-8 @ 34 out of 40 it showed high & at 40 out of 40 it showed high and dirty. 

So the DD+1 and MS-8 agree that my output at 40 out of 40 has some distortion. What they don't exactly agree upon is the 2.1v at 39 out of 40.

It didn't seem to hurt me but, just throwing it out in case it helps someone in the future.


----------



## KillerBox

What is the differences between the "ALL" setting and "FRONT" setting in a 7.1 system with the Logic7 on?

After smoothing out my bass response by reversing the phase of my subs, I have been playing with the MS-8. In the "FRONT" setting I think it sounds more spacious but, my system is louder in the "ALL" setting.


My system is in 7.1 in a 3 row seating SUV:

Center - Two - 4" and 1" speakers for the center of the dash firing into windshield - available power 150w x 2 - 24dB active crossover point @ 200hz & high crossover of 3khz 12dB passive

Front- 6.75" Midbasses bottom front of the doors - 300w x 2 - low crossover of 80hZ @ 24dB active & high crossover of 400hz 12dB passive
3" Midrange center of the door & 1" Tweeter in sail area - 150w x 2 - 12dB passive crossover points 400hz & 3khz

Sides - 6.75" Midrange bottom of rear doors & 1" tweeter top of rear doors - 150w x 2 - 110hZ @ 24dB active & 3khz 12 dB Passive

Rear - 4" and 1" speakers in pods behind the 3rd row seats firing towards front windshield - available power 150w x 2 - 24dB active @ 200hz & high crossover of 3khz 12dB passive

Subs - Two - 10" AudioFrog GB10D2 subs each in a 1.75" cu ft ported enclosure tuned to 32hz - 24dB active @ 80hz - 600w each


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## Lanson

If I recall, the "Front" setting is a compromise setting where "driver" and "passenger" are specific. "All" is the highest compromise. If I had to guess, I'd guess it is louder because you aren't hearing the effects of time alignment (which can include destructive interference.)

When I had my Flex with a beefy center channel, the "front" setting made the left and right seats basically equal in response and quality, pleasing the wife. In "Driver" the sound focused toward me, the driver. "All" was never chosen.


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## SloVic

How would the MS-8 handle a midbass array? Thinking 3 Dayton ND140-8's per side, 2 in the doors and one equal distance in the rear. If using one channel per side would this essentially leave the rear midbass down 3 db and would that be enough to hold the stage up front? Thinking bandpassed around 80hz or 100hz to 200hz or so. Not that it matters but a subwoofer will take over from there.


----------



## CDT FAN

Ok, guys. I know it's here somewhere, but I cannot find it.

I am looking for the thread where people are discussing how to connect two MS8's together, slaving one to another, so that you can have more channels to tune with. Does anyone know where to find that? I have looked everywhere with no luck.


----------



## spitfire91104

Quick question.

Planning a logic 7 setup and running my sub infinite baffle.

Only two options for rear locations are the rear deck(speakers have to be sealed but can be as large as 6x9's) or side speakers down low by rear passenger knee. Thing is the headrests on the backseat sort of block the speaker grill when folded down and I feel like my rear side locations are just too low.

If I do use the rear deck and seal the speakers I know it will kill midbass with the enclosures being so small. I know Andy had mentioned something like at least 100hz and that he also preferred side surrounds vs the rear surrounds. I will however have lots of power on tap something like 260rms/side but I have a feeling that still won't make up for the small enclosure.

Should I just attempt to run a good bit of power to a set of sealed 6x9's in the deck or pair of 6.5 in the sides? My seat back isn't overly dense or thick so I may be able to get away with running the sub with the seats up. 

Am I thinking too much about the rears? Others have said just having something back there is good enough but idk.

Any thoughts guys?

Mike


----------



## spitfire91104

CDT FAN said:


> Ok, guys. I know it's here somewhere, but I cannot find it.
> 
> I am looking for the thread where people are discussing how to connect two MS8's together, slaving one to another, so that you can have more channels to tune with. Does anyone know where to find that? I have looked everywhere with no luck.


Say what???? I didn't know it was possible. This has me extremely interested!


----------



## FordEscape

CDT FAN said:


> Ok, guys. I know it's here somewhere, but I cannot find it.
> 
> I am looking for the thread where people are discussing how to connect two MS8's together, slaving one to another, so that you can have more channels to tune with. Does anyone know where to find that? I have looked everywhere with no luck.


Here ya go 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/187593-ms-16-a.html


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## KillerBox

I see a lot of post about running the acoustic calibration too loud but, is -45 to low for the MS-8's? 

All channels are externally amplified at 150w x 12 & 600w x 2. 

Every speaker checked to be in +Polarity by a AudioControl microphone and Speaker Polarity CD. Subs are -Polarity because it smoothed out my graph at the crossover point of 80hz.

At -45 I could hear all the speakers during the calibration. My RTA graph with no manual EQ tuning is very close to the Harmon target curve. All the music sounds like it is coming from the dash.


My problem is that the image doesn't sound as defined as before. Hard to describe but, the instruments and singers just seem more jumbled up on the dash now. Is this normal or is my mind playing tricks on me?


I made the following changes since last calibration:

1.) My doors have 3 way speakers and the midrange and tweeter in one door polarity was backwards.
2.) My headunit output was too hot for the MS8, so I had to turn it's maximum level down some (-3 volume offset). 34 out of 40 used be the max for the MS8 and now it is 39 out of 40.
3.) Amp gains changed to compensate for the headunit's lower RCA voltage. All gains set with MS8 removed from circuit and using a DD+1.
3.) MS8 Calibration done at -45 this time because of the amp's gain change. I used to do the calibration at -40.


----------



## KillerBox

I reran my calibration again tonight @ -40 volume (instead of -45) & it sounds much better! The soundstage is now well defined!!


----------



## mzmtg

I’m currently powering my 2-way front stage actively with a 4-channel amp. (4x60 watt)

I’m adding an MS-8 soon and I’m considering putting the passive X-overs back in for the front speakers to free up an amp chanel for a center speaker. With this I’d be running left and right component sets with passive crossovers at 60 watts each and then a center channel with 60 watts and have a single amp channel unused. (or I could bridge 2 channels to give the center ~150 watts)

Based on everyone else’s experience, which would be recommended? Active 2-way front with no center, or passive 2-way front with center?


----------



## FordEscape

mzmtg said:


> I’m currently powering my 2-way front stage actively with a 4-channel amp. (4x60 watt)
> 
> I’m adding an MS-8 soon and I’m considering putting the passive X-overs back in for the front speakers to free up an amp chanel for a center speaker. With this I’d be running left and right component sets with passive crossovers at 60 watts each and then a center channel with 60 watts and have a single amp channel unused. (or I could bridge 2 channels to give the center ~150 watts)
> 
> Based on everyone else’s experience, which would be recommended? Active 2-way front with no center, or passive 2-way front with center?


Or, depending on what they are, you might do fine running all active with the front tweeters on the internal MS8 amp.

Personally, I'd start _without_ the center, running front L&R active and focus on getting a best 'driver only' result. You could test with the tweeters on the 60W amp and with them on the internal MS8 amp to see if the internal amp 'pulls down' things compared to the 60W amp (to match the max level of the tweeters; it may or may not, depending on relative sensitivities and power demands of the speakers for the music and listening levels you like).

Installing with terminal strips between the MS8 / external amp and your speaker leads makes these experiments very easy.

Then, if you want to accommodate two front occupants, start playing with an added center after you get a good 'driver only' setup and have a 'feel' for the MS8.

IMHO learning in small steps and with fewer variables to start with pays off in the long run.


----------



## mzmtg

FordEscape said:


> Or, depending on what they are, you might do fine running all active with the front tweeters on the internal MS8 amp.
> 
> Personally, I'd start _without_ the center, running front L&R active and focus on getting a best 'driver only' result. You could test with the tweeters on the 60W amp and with them on the internal MS8 amp to see if the internal amp 'pulls down' things compared to the 60W amp (to match the max level of the tweeters; it may or may not, depending on relative sensitivities and power demands of the speakers for the music and listening levels you like).
> 
> Installing with terminal strips between the MS8 / external amp and your speaker leads makes these experiments very easy.
> 
> Then, if you want to accommodate two front occupants, start playing with an added center after you get a good 'driver only' setup and have a 'feel' for the MS8.
> 
> IMHO learning in small steps and with fewer variables to start with pays off in the long run.


I've bought one of gumbeelee's MS8s with a non functional internal amp.

So I have 5 amp channels available. I have the 4x60 amp running my front speakers and I have a mono subwoofer amp powering my single 12" sub. I already have terminal strips in the wiring of my front speakers so switching between active and passive would be easy.


----------



## KillerBox

After too many experiments over an extended period of time, my system finally sounds like the musicians are on the hood. So I wanted to pass along a cheat sheet in case it helps someone in the future. 

All this information is probably available in other places but, either I didn’t understand it completely or I was taking certain things for granted.


My system is Logic7 system in full 7.1 in a 3 row SUV. All component speakers.

Two 4” & 1” in dash (my SUV had no center channel so I had to cut my dash to fit). Center channel speakers should be as large as physically possible to fit. Equal in quality as your front door speakers. Powered with similar power. 

In my system these are the most important speakers! I can’t stress this enough but, the center channel speakers also should be aimed at the windshield for the widest dispersion. MS-8 crossover @ 200hz – 24dB slope - Focal ES 100K


Front door speakers are in the factory locations. 6.75” midbass bottom of front door, 3” middle of front door and 1” in the sail area. In my opinion putting the speakers in the doors while using a center channel give the widest soundstage as possible. It also cuts down on the reflections off the dash and windshield. MS-8 crossover @ 80hz – 24 dB slope - Focal 165KRX3 

(Btw don’t buy these speakers! They sound great but, the crossovers create *a nasty turn on pop that Focal and Orca isn’t interested in fixing*. Focal recommends 4 amplifier channels feed the crossover because of these speakers extremely low ohm swing. But, somehow the 4 amplifier channels are creating the pop. Disconnect the crossover or the 2 amplifier channels and the pop goes away.)


Rear Door 6.75” in OEM location bottom of rear door and 1” tweeter custom mounted in top of door. If you need to save money this is where you could save, cheaper speakers and/or smaller speakers could be used. The Logic7 works by reversing phase so don't cross these over below 100hz with steep slopes because it will effect your front midbass. MS-8 crossver @ 125hz – 24 dB slope - Focal ES 165K

Behind the 3rd Row in custom pods that are aimed towards the front windshield. . If you need to save money this is where you could save, cheaper speakers and/or smaller speakers could be used. The Logic7 works by reversing phase so don't cross these over below 100hz with steep slopes because it will effect your front midbass. MS-8 crossver @ 200hz – 24dB slope - Focal ES 100K

Two AudioFrog GB10D2 in a ported enclosure and tuned to 30hz. I like ported enclosures because they limit the driver’s excursion as long as you don’t tune them too high. I set the subsonic filter at 20hz – 12dB slope. 


*Tip #1 - Don’t take for granted your headunits output voltage.* I am using a Kenwood Excelon DDX9903S. It is rated at 5v output. When I used a SMD DD+1, it only showed 2.1v with clean signal to 39 out of 40 on the volume. 

So in my foolishness I didn’t check what the MS-8 might say. The MS-8 also said the output was clean to 39 but, it was too high. The MS-8 inputs were too high at 34 out of 40. So I was running the MS-8 out of digital headroom at times. 

Backed off the Kenwood by using -3 on the volume offset in the Kenwood’s menu. Greatly improved my high volume sound. Btw, I think the DD+1 wasn’t that accurate at reading the low voltage RCAs.


*Tip #2* – After you know your maximum volume that the MS-8 is happy with on your headunit, completely disconnect the MS-8 out of the RCA loop and run a RCA from the headunit to your amps. Then set your amp gains. Since I am overdriving most of my speakers and wanted to limit any distortion, I initially set my gains for a 3dB overlap.


*Tip #3 – Run speaker polarity test on every speaker in your system!* I don’t care if you wired them correctly or not. Some amps reverse the polarity on one channel. Some passive crossovers reverse the polarity too. You can probably use the free AudioControl app and your Phone’s internal speaker for this test. My system was wired correctly but, my polarity was all over the map because of the amps and passive crossovers. 
Prior to me verifying all the speakers polarity, my speakers seemed to be flopping about aimlessly. Now my speakers don’t move ½ as much even at full volume.


*Tip #4* – Reconnect the MS-8 in the RCA loop and then check each of your speakers output with the MS-8 test. I tried too loud and too soft -35 ended up being my sweet spot for the MS-8 volume. Too loud -30 sounded kinda metallic and -40 too soft the soundstage stage was blurry. 

At -35 volume, my mids and highs were around 80dB when checked with my AudioControl SA4140i-SPL from the driver’s seat. You can adjust amp gains down at this point if you have any speakers extremely loud.


*Tip #5* – Speakers at their maximum excursions produce their maximum distortion and limit their power handling capabilities. Choose your crossover points accordingly. Just because your midbass is rated to 65hz, doesn’t mean it will sound its best at 65hz or even at 75hz. The idea is to keep the speakers in their sweet spots and to keep the soundstage in front of you.


*Tip #6 – The first sweep in every individual seating position is used for speaker location.* Disconnect the mids and highs in the front doors for this 1 sweep in every seating location. The MS-8 will then use the midbass’s location. This is step is what finally gave me the sound on the hood effect. (In case you are wondering two pairs of socks doubled (four layers) is not enough to block the sound. I learned this the hard way)


*Tip #7* – After running the MS-8 for a couple of test runs, I couldn’t get rid of a major dip that I had at 80hz. Andy suggested changing the phase of my subs. I didn’t think this would help because I had already check everything with my speaker pop polarity tests in Tip #3. I finally did and gained +6dB at 80hz just by flipping the wires.


*Tip #8* – Andy says, “MS-8 uses the level of the subwoofer sweep between 50hz and 80hz to set the level of the subwoofer channel prior to applying the EQ.” I have found that I have too much bass around my box tuning region and have had to remove part of it with the MS-8’s graphic EQ. From 63hz and up my RTA looks very good just with the MS-8 auto tune.


*Tip #9* - I am using the headunit’s volume control and the MS8 as a black box. So I leave the MS’s volume at a -6 to leave room for any boosting.


In conclusion I would like to say, I am 100% an amateur. These tips were all verified and learned the hard way by me. The MS-8 sounded very good before I learned each of these steps but, *it is flat out amazing when you get it right! The singers and instruments truly sound like that are beyond the windshield. The bass even sounds like it is there too!* 

If I had one complaint, it would be that I lost a little volume but, the MS-8 auto-tune rightfully cuts instead of boosts. So I might adjust the amps gains or turn up the MS-8 volume some.


----------



## mzmtg

I got my MS-8 wired up and running for the first time last night. I’m using a Kenwood mech-less head unit so, I played the setup file off a USB stick for input calibration. I'm using the front speaker outputs on the head unit as the inputs to channels 1 & 2 on the MS-8.

Interestingly enough, the MS-8 gave me a signal high warning at a volume setting of 29 out of 35. I have played a 0db 1kHz sine wave from USB through this head unit before and observed on an O-scope that the signal is clean at max volume (25 out of 35).

Not a big deal, just interesting.


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## gumbeelee

mzmtg said:


> I got my MS-8 wired up and running for the first time last night. I’m using a Kenwood mech-less head unit so, I played the setup file off a USB stick for input calibration. I'm using the front speaker outputs on the head unit as the inputs to channels 1 & 2 on the MS-8.
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly enough, the MS-8 gave me a signal high warning at a volume setting of 29 out of 35. I have played a 0db 1kHz sine wave from USB through this head unit before and observed on an O-scope that the signal is clean at max volume (25 out of 35).
> 
> 
> 
> Not a big deal, just interesting.




No need to use the setup disk with an aftermarket deck, but you can if u wish. Anyway I hope u love the MS-8!!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## lance4682

I just purchased a 2011 cts coupe premium with the 10 speaker bose system. I added 2 2ohm idq12v4 in a sealed enclosure powered by a jl 1000/1.... it sounds good but I want some more output out of it...I have a jbl ms8 laying around I would like to add to my car... here comes the questions i want to retain all functions but i lost the harness ..i purchased 2 mini fit molex plus speaker wire and pins but don't have the slightest clue how to wire this up... any help would be appreciated


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## mzmtg

Since I am using an MS-8 without a functional internal amp, here’s my crazy idea to get side speakers going without buying any more external amplifiers:

I am going to try using the factory rear speakers (in the rear doors) powered by the factory head unit. I think I can connect the RCA output from the MS-8 into the aux-in to my factory head unit. The head unit won’t be connected to the front speakers at all, only the rears. Then I can assign 2 channels of the MS-8 to the aux-in of the head unit and go from there.

Seems like it’s worth a shot.


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## spitfire91104

So I've tried searching the thread and couldn't find anyone with my issue.

My current ms8 went out so I threw in a spare I've been hanging onto but never tested. Set this one up exactly the same as my other one.

Everything works perfect, output diagnostics output correctly and calibration sweeps output fine. Thing is once calibration is complete both my right woofer and tweeter won't output anything. I can get the faintest of music from them with ms8 balance set all the way right and headunit volume turned up a good bit.

Tried different inputs, different outputs, different mic and even reset the unit multiple times. Tried with l7 off and on, processing off or on but nothing brings back the right side output.
Every time only the right side goes out after calibration. Headunit (80prs) with all fader and balance at 0. Pink noise sounds level and normal after input setup. 

Anyone ever heard of this?


----------



## spitfire91104

lance4682 said:


> I just purchased a 2011 cts coupe premium with the 10 speaker bose system. I added 2 2ohm idq12v4 in a sealed enclosure powered by a jl 1000/1.... it sounds good but I want some more output out of it...I have a jbl ms8 laying around I would like to add to my car... here comes the questions i want to retain all functions but i lost the harness ..i purchased 2 mini fit molex plus speaker wire and pins but don't have the slightest clue how to wire this up... any help would be appreciated


Do these plugs you got actually fit the ms8?


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## lance4682

Yes I got them from ebay using a search on this site... problem is I don't know if it matters I'if negative or positive come first or which speaker


----------



## KillerBox

Does anyone know what frequencies the MS8 uses on its acoustic calibration sweeps for Auto-Tune on a 7.1 system?

The reason why I am asking, I think Andy said once that it uses from 50hz to 80hz for bass sweeps but, nothing below 50hz. Which makes sense because when I ran the Stereo Pink Noise track from my Autosound 2000 - IASCA Competition CD, my bass was extremely high at 50hz and below. I cut the 50hz by -7db, 40hz by -10db and 32hz by -10db (a ported box supposed to be tuned to 32hz)

Then after some Graphic EQ adjustments I pretty much matched the Harmon Target Curve diagram while playing the same Pink Noise track. Now on some music with a lot of stereo separation it sounds excellent but, on music without the much stereo separation it is almost too bright because of my center channel speakers.

I keep flipping between the two settings of no Graphic EQ and adjusted Graphic EQ. I like the adjusted EQ settings more but, I am tempted to go with hybrid EQ and split the difference between the two settings.

I never have a lot of time available for tuning so does anyone have any suggestions?


----------



## spitfire91104

lance4682 said:


> Yes I got them from ebay using a search on this site... problem is I don't know if it matters I'if negative or positive come first or which speaker


Yeah I am pretty sure the pins need to match up exactly. Let me take a look at the manual and see if it shows which is which. If not I'll take some pics of the harness I have.


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## spitfire91104

lance4682 said:


> Yes I got them from ebay using a search on this site... problem is I don't know if it matters I'if negative or positive come first or which speaker


Ok I looked at both harnesses. Positive leads are on top and negative on bottom. Channel 1-8 starts at the left and ends at the right. I don't think the ms8 is able to correct for improper phase from not having the neg and pos hooked up correctly so just make sure its correct with wiring.


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## KillerBox

Would subs being too loud effect my midbass response on my MS-8? 

My system is in 7.2. 2 way Center channel, 3 way front doors, 2 way rear doors, 2 way behind 3rd row seats & 2 subs. 

All amp gain controls are set to 2v with 3dB overlap. All the amps internal crossovers are bypassed. All speakers verified in phase with speaker pop app (except for the subwoofers because I had a gap at 80hz until I swapped them)

The following measurements were taken without any manual adjustments of MS-8. Measurements done with stereo Pink Noise (from IASCA 2000 CD) averaged from several positions from the driver's seat.

Subs crossover by MS-8 @ 80hz @ 24dB: Ported Box behind 3rd seating row facing the back window. 

20hz - 75dB
25hz - 78dB
32hz - 84dB
40hz - 82dB
50hz - 78dB
63hz - 67dB
80hz - 65dB

Midbass: Crossover on the top side by Focal's passive crossover @ 400hz @ 12dB.

100 hz - 64.5dB
125 hz - 64.5dB
160 hz - 68dB
Relativity smooth from 160hz to 2k +/- 1.5dB


So do you think my midbass response would improve if I lowered my subwoofer volume level by turning down my amp gain and then rerunning the acoustic measurements again on the MS8? Or should I look somewhere else? 

Please advise because I am out of ideas other than cranking up the midbasses gain control or boosting the Graphic EQ.


----------



## litrekid

Yes, sub should be low enough that it's not felt during calibration. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## kaigoss69

With the mid bass sharing a channel with the mids/highs it is more difficult to achieve good mid bass because all the adjustments have to be done through EQ. I would set it up without sub (set a subsonic filter for the door woofers), then calibrate to see what the potential is of the door woofers. Then bring the sub back in and see if the mid bass is less. If yes, play with sub volume during calibration (through amp gains). If no, you may want to re-wire a true 2-way in doors (you now have 1-way) and get rid of last row channels.



KillerBox said:


> Would subs being too loud effect my midbass response on my MS-8?
> 
> My system is in 7.2. 2 way Center channel, 3 way front doors, 2 way rear doors, 2 way behind 3rd row seats & 2 subs.
> 
> All amp gain controls are set to 2v with 3dB overlap. All the amps internal crossovers are bypassed. All speakers verified in phase with speaker pop app (except for the subwoofers because I had a gap at 80hz until I swapped them)
> 
> The following measurements were taken without any manual adjustments of MS-8. Measurements done with stereo Pink Noise (from IASCA 2000 CD) averaged from several positions from the driver's seat.
> 
> Subs crossover by MS-8 @ 80hz @ 24dB: Ported Box behind 3rd seating row facing the back window.
> 
> 20hz - 75dB
> 25hz - 78dB
> 32hz - 84dB
> 40hz - 82dB
> 50hz - 78dB
> 63hz - 67dB
> 80hz - 65dB
> 
> Midbass: Crossover on the top side by Focal's passive crossover @ 400hz @ 12dB.
> 
> 100 hz - 64.5dB
> 125 hz - 64.5dB
> 160 hz - 68dB
> Relativity smooth from 160hz to 2k +/- 1.5dB
> 
> 
> So do you think my midbass response would improve if I lowered my subwoofer volume level by turning down my amp gain and then rerunning the acoustic measurements again on the MS8? Or should I look somewhere else?
> 
> Please advise because I am out of ideas other than cranking up the midbasses gain control or boosting the Graphic EQ.


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## FordEscape

kaigoss69 said:


> With the mid bass sharing a channel .....


It's been a while ... _very glad_ to see that you're still following and contributing


----------



## lance4682

spitfire91104 said:


> Ok I looked at both harnesses. Positive leads are on top and negative on bottom. Channel 1-8 starts at the left and ends at the right. I don't think the ms8 is able to correct for improper phase from not having the neg and pos hooked up correctly so just make sure its correct with wiring.


thank you kindly my good man


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## KillerBox

Thanks everyone for the tips & suggestions!

I didn't want to give up my 7.1 system. So in case this helps anyone in the future with passive crossovers and multiple channel external amps... 

This weekend I went old school with my tuning and I turned the MS8 processor off and I took each speaker set (5 individual sets) by itself (unplugged the other speaker sets from the amps). Balanced the sound by turned down the amp gains (only my sub amp was too high), then checked polarity of each set with my RTA and then the passive crossover settings. 

I then combined everything and I got as smooth of response as possible before using the MS8 acoustic calibration. I was able to achieve a relative smooth output with the highest peak level of 71.1dB at 32hz to the lowest dip level at 59.9dB at 20khz.

I then ran the MS8's acoustic calibration at -33 on MS8 (which was 80dB for each speaker and 75dB for the subs at the driver's seat). Let me say, I love the way my system sounds now! 

My system without any manual adjustments (other than still turning down the 32hz, 40hz and 50hz range) is clearer and louder than it has ever been! My RTA graph looks a lot more like the Harmon curve.

The soundstage is wide as the doors, high the dash, spacious sounds from the rear but, soundstage stays forward to the windshield. Sounds great at low volumes and still sounds crystal clear at volumes that will hurt your ears. Nothing ever sounds strained (I believe this has to do with no clipping in the MS8 or amps and keeping all the speakers in their comfort zones.)

Even though the MS8 hasn't been as quick or as easy as it was advertised to be, I am truly impressed!!! With my limited amount of time and knowledge, I don't believe that I would have achieved this sound by any other processor.


----------



## lance4682

anybody have access to a downloadable link for the calibration cd....thank you


----------



## KillerBox

lance4682 said:


> anybody have access to a downloadable link for the calibration cd....thank you


I can upload you a link tomorrow, if no one can help you before that.


----------



## FordEscape

lance4682 said:


> anybody have access to a downloadable link for the calibration cd....thank you


Well, the old harmon webpage that I used to link for this seems to be finally gone (http://ms8-eu.jbl.com/install.html) 

Here's the two files I archived from that site, the pdf is instructions for burning to CD, the wav file is the setup track itself to copy to USB or whatever (Google Drive links for anyone, no sign-in required) 

How to burn your JBL MS-8 set-up track.pdf

MLS Setup Track Small.wav

Hope that helps.


----------



## lance4682

Your the man thank you


----------



## Osher67

Hi new to the forms here but was hoping I could ask few things about my system plan with my ms-8

I will be wanting to run off of my oem head unit that provides 4 preamp outputs goal is to get best sound sage I can with my setup so I want to have most of my channels as I can separate.

I will be running my oem head unit 4 pre amp outs 2v to the ms-8 then from there I will have 4 amps.

-1x alpine pdx f4 for front and rear door tweeters 
-1x alpine pdx f6 for front and rear mid drivers in doors. 
-1x 1000w mono amp for subwoffer 
-Undecided on the forth amp for the center channel.

Now issue I came into here running all the channels actively I ran out of channels.
That's 8 speakers in all 4 doors 1 subwoffer and a spekaer for the center channel in the dash 10 speakers in all. Can't figure out if I would want to try to get a mid range alongside the dash tweeter yet. (Still in the process) 

Anyways...
So I thought I might be able to run the rear doors and tweets off of two channels on the ms-8 
RR & RL
Split two channels off the ms-8 
Ex: rear left door channel off the ms-8 splits to both pdx f6 and pdx f4 for the tweet and mid in the rear left door (I think I would have to have a passive crossover in the doors for this?) and vise versa for the rear right door. 

I believe the ms-8 can tune these channels for this spesfic scenario ? 
I will have Decated channels for the tweets and mids in the front/fill/ stage Decated channel for the sub and center channel as well.
Will be running all hertz ml1600 and ml280 & 1 sundown sa-8v2

If anyone can chime in to why that wouldn't work or give any advice would be appreciated.


----------



## Bizarroterl

Hi,
I plan on installing a MS-8 in a 2017 Corvette and will be using the stock speaker locations. The OEM setup is a 10" woofer and a 3.25" "twiddler" (whatever that means) in the door and a tweeter in the dash. The tweeter in the dash bounces directly off the glass.

I plan on using the GB25/GB10 for mid/tweeter. Initially I was planning on putting the GB25 in the door and the GB10 in the dash. Would I be better off fitting the GB25 and GB10 in the 3.25 door location and forego the tweeter in the dash?


----------



## Whiterabbit

Maybe. You trade PLD’s for less phasing between mid and tweet. It’s a near guarantee you’ll have a one seat car, but you’ll gain more flexibility in picking crossover points. 

I assume 3-way stage, no center, and a sub?

In my opinion, you’ll be better served by putting the lowest playing 3” you can find in your fidelity price range for the door spot and use the tweeter spot. My guess is you are going to struggle more mating the 3 to the 10 than the 3 to the tweeter, so using an even SMALLER midrange i suspect will limit you even more when selecting crossover points. I think that’ll be the easier path to musical success.


----------



## Bizarroterl

The current plan is to use the Scan Speak 25W/8565-00 10" woofers in each door (no sub). There's plenty of overlap in the response curves so I think the GB25 will play nice with the SS, but I'm no expert. There is a spot for a center (OEM is another 3.25" "twiddler"). I may be able to fit a GB25/GB10 there but from what I'm reading that wouldn't be advisable. 

I have the MS-8, Navtv M650-GM, and have 2 of the Biketronics BT4180 amps on order. Haven't ordered any speakers yet. Considering using Morel Tempo Ultra 502 Integra 5.25" for the rears (physically on the rear sides).

There isn't a budget on this. Obviously don't want to go with the diamond encrusted cone route, but willing to spend what it takes to get good sound (not interested in high volume). I also want to keep it OEM looking, so no custom pillars, large sub boxes, etc. I would like to optimize for driver and passenger.


----------



## Whiterabbit

Given the PLD challenges with the midrange, I suggest concentrating on a center channel if it's available, rather than rearfill. I think you will find it is money well spent if you are trying to make it not "too" right side biased for the passenger. 

One thing to consider is that since it's "easier" to deal with phasing between mid and tweeter when they are planar and co-located, installing both in the doors allows for use of the passive crossover AF makes. That means your stage is effectively a 2-way stage, consuming only 4 channels of the MS-8. That's leaves 4 channels for a center, sub, and two surrounds.

However, if you use the dash positions, I'd bet you'd have better luck going active from mid to tweet (but keep in mind this is a SWAG), meaning you'd consume 6 channels for the stage, leaving you with no extra channels for rears. Though you could try the passives. I just suspect you'll get them to integrate better active when not co-located.

On the other hand, a tweeter in the door is going to have crazy problems with ILD's, and with no center channel make it really tough to have a 2-seat car.

So, I think you've got some tough decisions to make. No matter which way you go you'll get some benefits, and some challenges.


----------



## Bizarroterl

Would the GB25/GB10 be sufficient for a center? Nothing larger would fit, well maybe a GB40 would but w/o a tweeter.


----------



## Whiterabbit

I prefer a larger speaker with no tweeter for a center over a smaller speaker with amore limited range on the bottom end.

On the other hand, your challenge is ILD's for the mids and up, so it might take some good old experimentation to figure out what works best.

MS8 can cover you a few ways:

3-way stage, 1-way center, sub
2-way stage (GB's passive), 2-way center, sub
2-way stage, 1-way center, sub, surround.

And you have your choice on tweeter location, door or dash, either way for 2 or 3 way. That's 6 options. add three center channel options GB40 vs GB25/10, and the GB25/10 passive) and you've got even more permutations.

Do you mind some experimentation? The MS8 makes tuning so easy, it's much faster to iterate your design than when you tune for a few weeks between configurations.


----------



## Bizarroterl

How does this sound as a start then?:
Doors - 
1. Scan Speak 25W/8565-00 10" woofer 30Hz 24db & 400Hz 24db 88db sens
2. GB25/GB10 in the place of the factory "twizzer" (upper door). Using the GB2510C passive crossover (default cross freqs) 400hz 24db and 15Khz 24db 86/90db sens
Center - GB40 110Hz 12db & 10Khz 12db 87db sens
Rears - Morels 80Hz 24db & 15Khz 24db (Rated 55-22K, opening cannot be fully sealed) 89db sens
Dash tweeter locations: unused

SS freq graph:









GB25/GB10 freq graph:









GB40 freq graph:


----------



## Whiterabbit

Hi Bizzarro,

This is beyond the scope of MS-8, I think you should copy this post as a new thread in the help me design my system forum. You'll get more views on it as well, so more opinions than just me.


----------



## Bizarroterl

Thanks, I posted this in my System Design thread
https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/system-design-help-me-choose-equipment-my-car/399914-2017-corvette-complete-de-boseing.html#post5575151


----------



## freediyusername

Hey guys, I'm a long-time lurker here.

I've been using the an MS-8 for quite some time. The vehicle, however, was totaled and I lost the display cable (forgot to at least save the end jacks when removing the equipment) and remote. The display is scratched pretty bad but I think it still works (no cable to test with).

I called JBL but they don't have any parts available at all.
Display: w-xp-0001-0000
Remote: w-33zy-ms-8-01
Display cable: w-2100-0012-00

Is there any way to find a compatible display cable? I might be able to control the unit from the IR blaster on my phone, but I can't test without a working cable.

It's crazy that such an expensive product receives so little love from its creator!


----------



## t3sn4f2

freediyusername said:


> Hey guys, I'm a long-time lurker here.
> 
> I've been using the an MS-8 for quite some time. The vehicle, however, was totaled and I lost the display cable (forgot to at least save the end jacks when removing the equipment) and remote. The display is scratched pretty bad but I think it still works (no cable to test with).
> 
> I called JBL but they don't have any parts available at all.
> Display: w-xp-0001-0000
> Remote: w-33zy-ms-8-01
> Display cable: w-2100-0012-00
> 
> Is there any way to find a compatible display cable? I might be able to control the unit from the IR blaster on my phone, but I can't test without a working cable.
> 
> It's crazy that such an expensive product receives so little love from its creator!


FYI, the remote is RF.


----------



## mzmtg

t3sn4f2 said:


> FYI, the remote is RF.


And the screen is the receiver.


----------



## KillerBox

After watching eBay auctions for the past few months, the cable and screen are almost costing as much as the main unit is and they are definitely selling quicker.


----------



## freediyusername

It seems the best option would be to keep an eye open on ebay for the items. It's kindof a tough pill to swallow knowing these units are totally unsupported. 
Thanks guys! 

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


----------



## mzmtg

The display connector on my MS-8 is getting finicky. If the cable isn't juuuussssst right, it doesn't work.

So, I opened it up to see about "repairing" the connector before it's totally broken. Here are pictures of what I found. I bought this unit used and it looks to me like the connector might have already been repaired at some point because there's glue all over it.

Anyone know if their MS-8 came with glue on the display connector from the factory?


----------



## t3sn4f2

mzmtg said:


> The display connector on my MS-8 is getting finicky. If the cable isn't juuuussssst right, it doesn't work.
> 
> So, I opened it up to see about "repairing" the connector before it's totally broken. Here are pictures of what I found. I bought this unit used and it looks to me like the connector might have already been repaired at some point because there's glue all over it.
> 
> Anyone know if their MS-8 came with glue on the display connector from the factory?


It does, but mines has a white glue instead of clear.


----------



## CDT FAN

RE: DIYMA JBL MS-8 Andy's Wisdom.pdf

Does anyone know where to find the DIYMA JBL MS-8 Andy's Wisdom file? The link I found is dead.


----------



## KillerBox

Andy's Wisdom File


----------



## CDT FAN

That was fast! Thanks a million.


----------



## Bizarroterl

I wasn't aware of that little gem. Looks like I have some reading to do.


----------



## minbari

Looks like potting compound. Designed to help with structural integrity

Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk


----------



## CDT FAN

KillerBox, You wouldn't happen to have the setup CD for the JBL amps, would you?


----------



## KillerBox

I know there was a smaller version somewhere but, I made a copy from my CD.

JBL MS-8 Set Up File.wav

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wD-1xjsEqNpr9SOUAwoz7Kv29C1CVtjq/view?usp=sharing


----------



## mfish

I have an MS-8 in a 2009 BMW 335i Sedan. Details about my issue and setup below.....

After a lot of trial and error, my only remaining issue is the balance of the treble, especially the higher frequencies like high hat cymbals, emanates much more strongly from the passenger side. In other words it's worse with the high hats as opposed to ride cymbals or crash cymbals. If I turn logic 7 / processing off I don't have the issue and the treble is balanced. So it must have something to do with the calibration. Also the treble volume overall is suppressed a lot on both sides (with processing / logic 7 on) as opposed to with processing / logic 7 defeated. 

I think I read about switching the polarity on one of the tweeters - might this help with this issue? If so, which tweeter should I reverse the polarity on and should I do this pre or post calibration? Right now on I don't have the treble attenuated on the crossovers. I'm thinking of re-calibrating with both tweeters attenuated at - 6db on the crossovers and then after calibration, put the left side on 0 db on the crossover and right side on -3 db on it's crossover. But I'd rather get at the root of the problem as opposed to a post calibration band-aid.

I have triple checked every single wire and know for sure that the polarity is correct for every single driver in the system. 

Everything else is good - upfront bass (I did turn up the gain a bit on the underseat subs post calibration and calibrated with a LPF on the amp about 40 hz above the MS-8 LPF crossover point ), smooth transition at crossover points, punchy bass with good dynamic range, good sub to underseat woofer blend, solid image (sounds like music playing on the dashboard) except for the treble etc.

Any suggestions?

My setup is:

On PPI 900.4 amp

Channel 1 - Front left MB Quart 2 way components with tweeters replaced with Morel's / Crossover - 175hz @ 24 db
Channel 2 - Front right MB Quart 2 way components with tweeters replaced with Morel's / Crossover - 175hz @ 24 db
Channel 3 - Front left OEM Hifi underseat sub / Crossover - HPF 65 hz @ 24db and LPF 175 hz @ 24 db
Channel 4 - Front right OEM Hifi underseat sub / Crossover - HPF 65 hz @ 24db and LPF 175 hz @ 24 db

On MS-8 power

Channel 5 - JBL Coaxial 2 ohm center channel speaker / Crossover - 175hz @ 24 db
Channel 6 - Rear left OEM Hifi / Crossover - 175hz @ 24 db
Channel 7 - Rear right OEM hifi / Crossover - 175hz @ 24 db

On Rockford Fosgate 1000bd

Channel 8 - JL 10W3V3 in VP electricity custom corner loaded fiberglass sealed box / Crossover subsonic 23 hz and LPF 65hz @ 24 db


----------



## Whiterabbit

Two suggestions.

Localize the issue with band limited pink noise or tones. Should be easy enough to better characterize.

Sounds like you are questioning your phase, even though you are confident in the wiring. Also easy enough. Play a phase test track with all speakers mute except the two you are interested in, with the MS-8 disabled. Should be in phase. If it's out, flip it then re-cal. Make sure all your filters are off though.


----------



## mfish

Whiterabbit said:


> Two suggestions.
> 
> Localize the issue with band limited pink noise or tones. Should be easy enough to better characterize.
> 
> Sounds like you are questioning your phase, even though you are confident in the wiring. Also easy enough. Play a phase test track with all speakers mute except the two you are interested in, with the MS-8 disabled. Should be in phase. If it's out, flip it then re-cal. Make sure all your filters are off though.


Thanks @Whiterabbit I'll try that. Pretty sure I have phone apps that can generate the required pink noise. Between pulling RCA cables / speaker cables and manipulating the fader I can isolate speakers.

Any suggested apps to accurately test if speakers are in phase?

Does what I'm describing sound like a phase issue?

Are there some recordings where it's actually intentional to have cymbals only / mostly recorded on the right channel? Or is that fairly atyipcal?

I feel like the problem isn't present / as prevalent on more modern / digitally created songs like rap, and hip hop. Whereas the problem shows up more on rock songs.


----------



## Whiterabbit

MANY recordings pan instruments to the left and right. May as well be listening to a fancy Victrola otherwise. I have a stereo in my car, not a mono!

Anyways, if you need a down and dirty test, the IASCA test CD has a good phase track that will tell you where you need to be. Track 3. "My voice is in phase now, and should sound clear, natural, and be placed in the center of your sound stage. My voice is out of phase now, and should sound diffuse, be difficult to locate,....."

It should be obviously, obviously better when in phase than out. if it's backwards, you have some polarity flipped somewhere. If it sounds about the same both ways, you are out of phase no matter what, and have some more basic work to do.


----------



## mfish

I was reading some of Andy's feedback and saw that he said it's important to unplug the mic after finishing calibrating but BEFORE telling the MS-8 you're done calibrating.

I forgot to unplug the mic until AFTER telling the MS-8 I was done. 

How bad is this? In other words does this mean my calibration (what is saved in the MS-8's memory) was less than ideal? Or now that I do have the mic unplugged am I good to go?


----------



## KillerBox

mfish said:


> I was reading some of Andy's feedback and saw that he said it's important to unplug the mic after finishing calibrating but BEFORE telling the MS-8 you're done calibrating.
> 
> I forgot to unplug the mic until AFTER telling the MS-8 I was done.
> 
> How bad is this? In other words does this mean my calibration (what is saved in the MS-8's memory) was less than ideal? Or now that I do have the mic unplugged am I good to go?


I have done the same before by accident and experienced no problem. I think some people got a loud jet roar immediately after, so that is why it is suggested to unplug it.


----------



## CDT FAN

Do you happen to have any extra cables for sale or know where to get one?

I someone could test the ends of theirs to see what which connections go where, that would be good too. Maybe I can make one.



Carlton8000 said:


> I just got off the phone with JBL and placed an order for three replacement cables. I received a confirmation for the order and was told they will ship out in 2-3 days.
> 
> W-2100-0012-00 DISPLAY CABLE $8.69 3 / each $26.07
> 
> Total Order Value: $26.07


----------



## justin30513

CDT FAN said:


> Do you happen to have any extra cables for sale or know where to get one?
> 
> I someone could test the ends of theirs to see what which connections go where, that would be good too. Maybe I can make one.
> 
> 
> 
> Carlton8000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just got off the phone with JBL and placed an order for three replacement cables. I received a confirmation for the order and was told they will ship out in 2-3 days.
> 
> W-2100-0012-00 DISPLAY CABLE $8.69 3 / each $26.07
> 
> Total Order Value: $26.07
Click to expand...

This is great information to know! So I can still call him and order parts for the ms8?


----------



## billw

The post you quoted is 4 years old. I believe all replacement parts are long gone from JBL and they no longer support the product whatsoever.


----------



## justin30513

billw said:


> The post you quoted is 4 years old. I believe all replacement parts are long gone from JBL and they no longer support the product whatsoever.


Yeah I know I realized that once I answered LOL I thought I was answering to a 2018 post...lol.
I have to ms8 brains and I'm looking fur accessories.
I just got one brain that still has the factory plastic on it....














Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


----------



## Weigel21

I got a refurbished unit a year ago that was missing the mic, supposedly it had never been used by the guy I bought it from and he decided to go another direction. When it arrived and I found the mic was missing, I contacted him only to get a response a couple days later telling me his daughter found the mic when looking for headphones and threw them away since they didn't work. ?

Got a partial refund, ($50) is what we agreed upon. 

Had to break down and buy a second unit just to get my hands on a mic. ?


----------



## justin30513

Weigel21 said:


> I got a refurbished unit a year ago that was missing the mic, supposedly it had never been used by the guy I bought it from and he decided to go another direction. When it arrived and I found the mic was missing, I contacted him only to get a response a couple days later telling me his daughter found the mic when looking for headphones and threw them away since they didn't work. ?
> 
> Got a partial refund, ($50) is what we agreed upon.
> 
> Had to break down and buy a second unit just to get my hands on a mic. ?


OMG.....I thought I was the only one that's had run ins with Murphy and...
his....
his....
LAWS!
LoL....hey it's in my blood....it's my last name!
Now back to the ms8.
The headphones is the mic is the headphones right? I've been speaking to Gary, well Gary Biggs. Seems he had a little to do with this thing, along with Andy Wehmeyer. I have not spoken to him yet.

I'm actually very interested in modifying and upgrading the 30x8 amplifier inside. I would like to run it as a complete separate set up against a MS-8 used as a DSP along with my Hybrid audio amplifiers.
I had a L5 s1 spinal fusion back on December 19th. I have lots of time to test record data as I am set to recover for 6 months.
I'm going to try actually ignore everything that is out there and start new data with new equipment.
I saw something during my hospital stay, pain pump induced possibly LOL, that showed a raspberry pi and a TFT screen being used in place of the factory touchscreen.
If there was a step by step tutorial of this I would love to see it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


----------



## Weigel21

Yeah, the mic with the ms-8 are binaural microphones built into headphones, so one might mistake them for traditional headphones, but they are microphones and even though they may plug into an audio out jack, they sure won't produce any sound. I got a little chuckle from him telling me his (IIRC), 11 year old daughter found them and tossed them since they didn't work. True or not, I could see it happening and found it funny, while quite unfortunate for myself.


----------



## KillerBox

JBL MS-8 - 2006 BMW 325i -2007 CA&E - Gary Biggs - Andy Wehmeyer

P.S. I would also like to Thank the person that originally scanned this article. I have always read about this BMW install but, I didn't know there was an article for it.


----------



## kaigoss69

KillerBox said:


> JBL MS-8 - 2006 BMW 325i -2007 CA&E - Gary Biggs - Andy Wehmeyer
> 
> P.S. I would also like to Thank the person that originally scanned this article. I have always read about this BMW install but, I didn't know there was an article for it.


That was the inspiration for my initial BMW e90 install. Same car, same system, same speakers, etc. The results were very good, a big improvement over the OEM sound, but in the end the OEM set-up had 2 flaws: 1.) Quality of OEM signal into MS-8 and 2.) OEM speaker quality. Once replacing both, it took everything up a notch...or two. I still think JBL must have had some friendly judges to get the win with that configuration.


----------



## KillerBox

I have attached the JBL MS-8 Factory Service Manual in case it helps anyone in the future. If for some reason it gets removed in the future, just message me for a copy.

Also I would like to ask a question, I am running 3 way components in my front doors. I am using 4 channels of the MS-8 on my front speakers and then going to external amplifier channels. 

I have the 6.5 midbasses crossed over by the MS-8 from 80hz to 1,000hz and then the 3” midranges and 1” tweeters are passively crossed over around 3,500hz. The speakers are in their OEM locations. 6.5” bottom of the doors, 3” in the middle of the doors and 1” in the sail area. 

My question is on my first sweeps, should I disconnect just the tweeters or disconnect the 3” midranges and tweeters?


----------



## mars081978

Do anyone know where I can download the setup CD WAV file? The download link is no longer valid.

Thanks,


----------



## KillerBox

mars081978 said:


> Do anyone know where I can download the setup CD WAV file? The download link is no longer valid.
> 
> Thanks,


https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/5607731-post12402.html


----------



## mars081978

Thanks


----------



## mars081978

Another question, anyone know where I can get the factory on-ear binaural microphone? I bought an used car and it comes with the MS-8, but it's missing the microphone.


----------



## Weigel21

Good luck
I ended up having to buy a second unit in order to get my hands on a set.

Depending on where you are located, maybe a member here is near by and would be willing to let you use/rent theirs to do a quick re-tuned.


----------



## KillerBox

Does anyone know how the MS-8 adjusts for its sound curve? After reading tips, I have re-ran my acoustic calibration at least 20+ times over the past 2 years. Some tips made my system sound better and some made it sound worse.

After all that I absolutely love the MS-8 sound. I am within 3db of the Harmon Curve (lacking in the 100hz to 200hz range and 2k to 20khz range). So should I use the Graphic EQ to fix those problem areas or just run with it because to my untrained ear it sounds very good!

In case it affects your answer, the MS-8 is in its 5.1 mode with every speaker externally amplified.


----------



## kaigoss69

KillerBox said:


> Does anyone know how the MS-8 adjusts for its sound curve? After reading tips, I have re-ran my acoustic calibration at least 20+ times over the past 2 years. Some tips made my system sound better and some made it sound worse.
> 
> After all that I absolutely love the MS-8 sound. I am within 3db of the Harmon Curve (lacking in the 100hz to 200hz range and 2k to 20khz range). So should I use the Graphic EQ to fix those problem areas or just run with it because to my untrained ear it sounds very good!
> 
> In case it affects your answer, the MS-8 is in its 5.1 mode with every speaker externally amplified.


I tried multiple times to correct the curve, and bring it closer to the ideal JBL one, but every time I did that it sounded worse. The out of the box tune always worked best for me, as long as I used a bunch of tricks to fool the processor into doing what I wanted.


----------



## Whiterabbit

KillerBox said:


> Does anyone know how the MS-8 adjusts for its sound curve? After reading tips, I have re-ran my acoustic calibration at least 20+ times over the past 2 years. Some tips made my system sound better and some made it sound worse.
> 
> After all that I absolutely love the MS-8 sound. I am within 3db of the Harmon Curve (lacking in the 100hz to 200hz range and 2k to 20khz range). So should I use the Graphic EQ to fix those problem areas or just run with it because to my untrained ear it sounds very good!
> 
> In case it affects your answer, the MS-8 is in its 5.1 mode with every speaker externally amplified.


It's easy enough to correct and reset if you don;t like it.

FWIW, in my car I heavily correct the tune by EQ and it always always improves things drastically. For me, the value of the MS-8 is the de-tune of the factory, level setting, and T/A setting, combined with the excellent implementation of Logic7.

EQ always needs a wee bit of help.


----------



## mzmtg

KillerBox said:


> So should I use the Graphic EQ to fix those problem areas or just run with it because to my untrained ear it sounds very good!


Yes!

That's what it's for, to tweak the final sound to your liking. I have a couple of db cuts and boosts here and there to get mine right where I like it.


----------



## FartinInTheTub

Does anyone have the ms8 setup disc file? I dont have the disc.


----------



## 06gtmike

FartinInTheTub said:


> Does anyone have the ms8 setup disc file? I dont have the disc.


https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/5607731-post12402.html


----------



## nirschl

You know, I have one of these brand new in the box and never got around to using it. Didn’t feel the need since I also had a DEH-P01(p99). Anyone feel MS-8 will do a better job?


----------



## FartinInTheTub

06gtmike said:


> FartinInTheTub said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have the ms8 setup disc file? I dont have the disc.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/5607731-post12402.html
Click to expand...


Thanks!


----------



## KillerBox

I am confused about how to check for polarity in the rear speakers while using the MS-8.

I have been turning the MS-8 processor in its defeat mode & the Logic7 off too. Then checking the front and rear speakers with a speaker polarity pop CD track and microphone. By doing this procedure, I made sure the front and rear were both in the same positive polarity.

Does anyone know if this is correct?


----------



## billqs

Hey! Long time lurker, but member here. MS-8 continually comes up as a great choice to get a better soundstage. I just bought a Jaguar XE 2017 with Meridian 380W stereo. Like my last vehicle, 2009 Toyota Venza, it has an opening but no center channel. This was for the upgraded Meridian 825W 15 channel system that had surround. In my Venza I got spoiled by my last headunit that had a DTA that when used gave me a terrific soundstage. Now my Jaguar is playing "back in the doors" like it used to be for me. Upgrades to the standard Infotainment system are a no go, without substantial car rewiring and losing some functionality to other systems. So I'm stuck with stock there.

The MS-8 seems to have a really good solution to help open things up front. I had a few questions, though. Is the 18W per channel going to be loud enough to push my stock speakers to good levels, or is an 8 channel aftermarket amp likely to be required?

Is there an easier path using DTA off of a DSP to achieve really good soundstage? Mostly, it's just me and I don't have people who are critical sound people riding with me, though it would be nice to have good sound everywhere. Finally, how reliable are the used and refurb models since this is no longer made? Thanks for your help!


----------



## kevinduckworth

No outside DTA is needed, just use the JBL's headphone-style mics (observing proper left & right), plug-in snugly ahead of the calibration run, follow the CD/WAVE-file exactly as it instructs, then remove the mic from the jack once completed. FOLLOW install manual word-by-word; it's well written. 
There should also be some good stickies posted on this board too. 

The internal amps (rated ~20W-RMS, class-D) inside the MS-8 [in no way can they be bridgeable to combine] are more the sufficient to power a small center channel cleanly. Just run your Center as a high-pass of 150Hz or higher (depending on your center-channel's driver size) frequency. It is recommended to match the brand/series of speakers as your front doors, a 3.5" coax will do; but larger (up to 6.5") is better than smaller; within reason, of course. 
Good practice suggests either a 12dB/Octave or 24dB/Octave slope harmonizes better together... YMMV. 

You can in the audio level menu dial up/down the center's emphasis (in relation to the true-left & true-right sides); in the event you get too much center presence or are in fear of over-driving a little 3.5" speaker in your dashboard. 

The key is EVERYTHING has to process thru the MS-8, then you are at liberty to pick & choose what is powered-off of its internal amps versus RCA to externals. 
In the majority of situations, unless you're going for mega-SPL or ultrahigh-end SQ, the "rears" & "sides" (as JBL calls it) are in scenarios, are fine for running-off the MS-8 internal amp channels, in additional to the center-channel information. 

That's what I've done since day-1 for a number of years & cannot complain... 
* Best of luck!


----------



## FartinInTheTub

Help me tune my car ?


I've been messing with the crossover slopes and settings and haven't gotten it where I want it yet. 
Here's what I'm working with...

2013 Subaru Legacy


Kenwood DNX-995s
JBL MS8 Processor
JL Audio 900/5
Hybrid Audio L3SE (oem dash)
Hybrid Audio L6V2 (midbass)
MbQuart Premium 6.5 (rearfill)
JL Audio 12w6v3 (1.0cuft Sealed in trunk)

L3SE widebanders are at 350hz and up 12db
L6V2 midbass 65hz-350hz 12db
MbQuart PTD 6.5 (rear doors) 100hz 24db
12W6v3 65hz 12db


Pretend this is your car and select some MS8 settings. If you are familiar with the MS8 please list the settings in order. I appreciate the help and look forward to finding the right sound.


----------



## billw

What kind of problems are you having? Please be specific. I suspect that a few different things are the likely culprit.

In my experience, most MS8 problems come from playing the sweeps too loud during calibration with the headphones. This is especially true if the problem is in the bass and midbass regions.

Try different levels and see if you find level that gives you a tune you are happy with. -35 to -55 has worked well for me in a few different systems/cars. The one that works best depends on the car and its system.

If you having problems in the midrange and treble, then I suspect that MS8 doesn't care much for your tweeterless setup. Can you add tweeters with some passives? or change the L3se for tweeters and adjust the crossover points?

Do you have everything wired in proper polarity? This can cause issues as well. 

The crossover points are probably fine but I would change them all to 24 db slopes. I'd also change the midbass/subwoofer point to 80 hz. That's just nitpicking though. I doubt it makes a lot of difference.


----------



## kaigoss69

L3SE work great without tweeters and MS-8 doesn't mind at all. I remember getting goosebumps when listening to female vocals. Listen to the sweeps, and make sure the volume is matched, Use a mic or phone app if you can. Sweeps between L3SE and door mid should be within 3-5dB. Use "hidden menu" for level setting, but make sure you read how to use it. Use at own risk. Leave sub out ("no sub") until 60Hz and up sounds good.


----------



## FartinInTheTub

I have no idea how to access the hidden menu. As for the l3se mids they sound awesome! I just feel that something is off. Im realizing that it has to be the calibration volume level. I calibrate at -5. From what im reading thats not good. Its difficult to set gains on the 900/5 when using the ms8. Im sure that once i get that figured out i will be golden.


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## billqs

Hi! I'm considering a MS8 for my Jaguar XE 2017. Each front has 3 active speakers, bass, midrange and tweeter. There's also a sub out. I figure the rears should not be processed in input though they will have to be handled on the back end. So these 7 channels can be summed to a left and right. I would add a center channel. 

The problem is that when it goes to hooking up post ms8 I have 7 channels without rear and sub. What is the best way to handle this?


----------



## billw

FartinInTheTub said:


> I have no idea how to access the hidden menu. As for the l3se mids they sound awesome! I just feel that something is off. Im realizing that it has to be the calibration volume level. I calibrate at -5. From what im reading thats not good. Its difficult to set gains on the 900/5 when using the ms8. Im sure that once i get that figured out i will be golden.


The input voltage range on the 900/5 is 200 mv-2 volts on the LOW setting. So, set it on LOW and turn the dial all the way left. That will set it at 2 volts (the max output of the MS8).

Yes, calibrating at -5 is way too high. Let us know how it turns out.


----------



## billw

billqs said:


> Hi! I'm considering a MS8 for my Jaguar XE 2017. Each front has 3 active speakers, bass, midrange and tweeter. There's also a sub out. I figure the rears should not be processed in input though they will have to be handled on the back end. So these 7 channels can be summed to a left and right. I would add a center channel.
> 
> The problem is that when it goes to hooking up post ms8 I have 7 channels without rear and sub. What is the best way to handle this?


Use the 7 channels you have on the input side.

On the outputs, you've simply run out of channels. You can run passive crossovers between the mid and tweeter. You can also use an amplifier with built in crossovers to actively crossover between the mid and tweeters.

If you do this, set up the front channels as 2 way, set the crossover points for between the midbass and midrange (probably 300-400 hz). Then the passive or amp crossover will take over from there. This works fine as long as the mid and tweeter are close together.

You'll have to run the sides and center as a 1 way with passives or a crossover after the MS8 as well. Hope this helps.


----------



## billw

kaigoss69 said:


> L3SE work great without tweeters and MS-8 doesn't mind at all. I remember getting goosebumps when listening to female vocals. Listen to the sweeps, and make sure the volume is matched, Use a mic or phone app if you can. Sweeps between L3SE and door mid should be within 3-5dB. Use "hidden menu" for level setting, but make sure you read how to use it. Use at own risk. Leave sub out ("no sub") until 60Hz and up sounds good.


I'm skeptical about this. L3SE might be ok w/o a tweeter on axis, but I suspect it changes dramatically firing up from the corners of the dash and creating reflections from the windshield, side window, and mixing that with the original sound waves.


----------



## FartinInTheTub

Don't you mean that I should turn it all the way to the right? Turning it to the right increases the gain.






billw said:


> FartinInTheTub said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea how to access the hidden menu. As for the l3se mids they sound awesome! I just feel that something is off. Im realizing that it has to be the calibration volume level. I calibrate at -5. From what im reading thats not good. Its difficult to set gains on the 900/5 when using the ms8. Im sure that once i get that figured out i will be golden.[/QUOTE
> 
> The input voltage range on the 900/5 is 200 mv-2 volts on the LOW setting. So, set it on LOW and turn the dial all the way left. That will set it at 2 volts (the max output of the MS8).
> 
> Yes, calibrating at -5 is way too high. Let us know how it turns out.
Click to expand...


----------



## billqs

billw said:


> Use the 7 channels you have on the input side.
> 
> On the outputs, you've simply run out of channels. You can run passive crossovers between the mid and tweeter. You can also use an amplifier with built in crossovers to actively crossover between the mid and tweeters.
> 
> If you do this, set up the front channels as 2 way, set the crossover points for between the midbass and midrange (probably 300-400 hz). Then the passive or amp crossover will take over from there. This works fine as long as the mid and tweeter are close together.
> 
> You'll have to run the sides and center as a 1 way with passives or a crossover after the MS8 as well. Hope this helps.


A passive crossover seems like it would work. The consensus seems to be that the amping from JBL will be sufficient for the door speakers, and the sub has it's own amp. This seems doable. Thanks!


----------



## FartinInTheTub

Can someone please assist me in setting my gains on my JL 900/5 in conjunction with the MS8? I've been told to turn the switch to low and crank it one way. Could someone please help me set this right? My car sounds like garbage. Here is the layout.

Kenwood DNX-995s with 5v preouts
JL 900/5
JBL MS8
AP NZ3 ALBE/ HAT L6v2 (frontstage)
JL12W6v3

I appreciate any help setting this up!


----------



## billqs

I've got the ms-8 but am in a holding pattern till the dealership gets my headunit back to full functionality after they "lost" HD Radio in the infotainment software update. Got to keep changes small till after they get it right, less they try to squirm out of it because of aftermarket units and such.

I see an Aux L and R input for a music player. This would help me a great deal as it should be superior to the sound from the stock head unit. How is the Aux switched between the main in and the Aux? Is it a switch on the display screen?

Thanks for all your help!


----------



## mattkim1337

billqs said:


> I've got the ms-8 but am in a holding pattern till the dealership gets my headunit back to full functionality after they "lost" HD Radio in the infotainment software update. Got to keep changes small till after they get it right, less they try to squirm out of it because of aftermarket units and such.
> 
> I see an Aux L and R input for a music player. This would help me a great deal as it should be superior to the sound from the stock head unit. How is the Aux switched between the main in and the Aux? Is it a switch on the display screen?
> 
> Thanks for all your help!


There's a menu on the display called Input Selection. You can manually switch between the Main inputs and the Aux input there.


----------



## mzmtg

billqs said:


> I see an Aux L and R input for a music player. This would help me a great deal as it should be superior to the sound from the stock head unit.


Part of the MS-8's process is correcting the input it gets from the stock head unit into a flat two channel stereo signal.

You may be surprised how good it sounds when it's all said and done with the stock HU.


----------



## billqs

ok...new dilemma... I’m in the midst of wiring in my MS8 and I have 2 choices for input. I found a 2 channel full spectrum sound going from my Head unit to the factory amp. 2 problems... 1. The. Sound us speaker level. 2. It is a constant high level. Volume is controlled by the factory amp. Is not being able to use my volume control on the car worth me bypassing the amp signal for a bit better sound? What would you do? ZThanks!


----------



## billqs

Well, I finally got the wiring harnesses done. Since each driver has it's own wires, I ended up doing the advice above and running Front Bass Front Mid/Tweet with a 2 way passive crossover, 2 channels for the rear with crossovers a sub and a center channel. 

I had tested for basic functionality when I first got this a few months ago and it turned on. It did not come with a display cable so I used the post and picture here on the forum to make my own 2.5mm cable. I plugged it up, got the blue light but nothing on display. I took the display cable apart and reattached since the wires are so small it would be easy for them to come apart. When I went to plug it back in, instead of going into the display jack on the unit, the cable pushed the display jack back into the unit.

I'm not really good with soldering and I've not had success getting the MS-8 open, yet. I did acquire the service manual, and will share it with anyone on here who would like it. I have some IT buddies here at work that will look it over for me, but I believe it's shot.

My best way forward is to source another MS-8 since all the wiring is ready to go. It's frustrating, but I guess that's what happens sometimes when you are using a discontinued product and used or NOS is all that is available. Hopefully, I'll be able to close the deal on the replacement unit I'm trying to buy.

If anyone wants a copy of the service manual, just PM me, and we'll figure out how to get it to you. It's a 7mb download.


----------



## FordEscape

*multi-channel input to capture non-music vehicle tones & voices*

*Background*

Having sold my Escape where my MS-8 worked great including with all the beeps and voices generated by SYNC2 I'm now investigating installation in my new 2019 Honda Ridgeline RTL-E ("RL" hereafter).

The RL has 8 discrete channel outputs from it's amp:
FR L & R woofer (2 ch)
FR L & R tweeter (2 ch)
FR Center (1 ch)
Rear L & R (2 ch)
Subwoofer (1 ch)
Total = 8 channels and I would like to have those same 8 channels out from the MS-8 after processing.

Another member abandoned installation of his MS-8 in an RL upon finding Navigation directions were not broadcast through the speakers even with all 8 OEM channels routed to the MS-8. I do not know which OEM amp outputs were directed to which MS-8 inputs in that case. 

I've not started my install yet but being hard-headed and liking the MS-8 with Logic 7 I want to try to find a solution / workaround.

*My Suspicion About Why*

The RL Nav Guidance Voice (among other vehicle generated non-music voices/tones) are only broadcast on the OEM center channel.

I do not _know_ the OEM 'up-mixing' scheme but I _suspect_ that the audio (music) on the center channel is simple L+R.

Further, I _suspect_ that during the MS-8 setup it determines that the center input is sending a signal (L+R) that is already provided by the discrete L & R inputs, therefore isn't needed for proper music processing, and therefore the MS-8 _ignores_ (shuts-off) the center input channel. The result being that when a different from L & R signal is sent to the center (e.g. a Nav Voice) it does not get sent through the MS-8 for broadcast to any speakers.

……. *Does anyone know if ^that^ suspicion about how the MS-8 treats a 'redundant' L+R input is correct?*

*Is There A Solution / Workaround?*

Assuming for now that I'm correct in the above ….

Is there a way to _force_ the MS-8 to include an L+R input in the audio stream it processes for broadcast to the speaker outputs? Would using the MS-8 CH 1 input for the OEM amp Center Output make any difference? What about using MS-8 inputs 7 or 8 which seem to have special significance (noting the instruction that sub input must always go to input channel 8)?

I can (and will) test this but I'm looking for any insights I can get to help make that exercise as efficient as possible.

_Aside - leaving the OEM center output 'as original' without sending it to the MS-8 is not an option because it does broadcast music and having that play when all other channels go through the MS-8 with it's ~8 millisecond delay (at least) would royally screw-up my front stage._

Sorry for the long post / explanation, but IMO it's an interesting challenge.

*Thoughts/suggestions from the DIYMA 'MS-8 expert collective' would be most appreciated!

Thanks In Advance!*

FYI here's a matrix explaining the logic used by the OEM system for distributing audio (music) vs non-music beeps, tones and voices:


----------



## billqs

This idea might be a nonstarter, but how about seeing if the nav has it’s own output and run it to a small speaker installed right under the dash? That’s what a lot of people do if they have the MS-8 hand’s free echo.


----------



## FordEscape

billqs said:


> This idea might be a nonstarter, but how about seeing if the nav has it’s own output and run it to a small speaker installed right under the dash? That’s what a lot of people do if they have the MS-8 hand’s free echo.


Thanks, a good idea, but all of the RL voices and tones seem to be sent via it's proprietary CAN to the amp from several different modules where they are 'generated' for analog output. Hacking into that to pull / direct those to a discrete speaker is beyond my capability if possible at all.

Thank You and please keep brainstorming - all ideas welcome, they might trigger a solution! 

*EDIT* - Looking again at the system schematic I see an "Aux Navi" and "Aux Navi Gnd" which _may_ be an analog link between the HU and the amp for those voices - you've given me something to add to the testing routine to check - Thank You!


----------



## billqs

I've been involved with a monster of an install trying to upgrade my 2017 Jaguar XE with an MS-8. I finally got the unit up and working (Unit was always working fine- I had fuse issues and REM out problems). 

The display works but I get absolutely no sound- not even the test tones. This could still be a problem with my car, but I wondered if I should troubleshoot any MS-8 issues to get sound, e.g. setting up an AUX in to see if an external sound source might produce sound.

It's my understanding that setup has to occur before you can use AUX? Is this correct?


----------



## thrak76

Don't know if this helps, but the 1st steps during setup are silent. There is no output when acquiring levels using the disc. You don't hear any output until it presents you the system level diagnostics.


----------



## KillerBox

You aren't getting the Pink Noise from the MS-8 diagnostic before you complete the set up?


----------



## KillerBox

Also are you using the MS-8 amplifier or using the MS-8 RCA outs to external amplifiers?


----------



## billqs

Thanks for the replies! I'm not getting any of the Pink noise sounds coming out after set up.

Also, I'm using the built-in amp on the MS-8.


----------



## KillerBox

I hate to say it but, it could be the MS-8 built in amp. The internal amps were problematic.

Easy way to check is if you have an amplifier or amplified speaker, plug into one of the MS-8 RCA outputs and run the set up. You should get Pink Noise sound when you get to the diagnostic menu during the setup.

The MS-8 should produce sound out of the RCAs even if its internal amplifier is malfunctioning.


----------



## billqs

Actually, I was off at lunch to buy a 3.5mm to RCA plug to check out everything when I ended up in a car accident. Luckily, I'm fine and the car doesn't have a lot of damage.

I'm going to test everything now that I'm home. So far every problem has been my idiosyncratic Jaguar and the weird behavior it's been exhibiting. I'm going to patch directly into the AUX with my phone after basic setup to see if I get a signal then. That will tell me much more of what lies ahead. 

Several shops turned down installing this for me because of previous bad experience with Jaguars so I'll see. I'll post soon with the results of my testing.


----------



## billqs

Killerbox, you were correct. I did a lot of testing tonight and I'm getting output from the RCA outs, but nothing from the internal amp. I found my factory system was putting out music (I was afraid it wasn't due to a fault code), but only silence from the internal amp.

I've still got to try each of the 8 channels and make sure all are putting out volume, then see which way to go from there. If I can get all to work with the addition of an amp, then I could still use the DSP section to get proper surround sound. Just got to dig a little deeper.


----------



## KillerBox

I would check it out but, all 8 outputs should be working still. Look at it as an opportunity to use external amplifier(s). 

With how cheap power is nowadays, I wouldn’t even consider installing a system without external amplifiers.


----------



## billqs

Yeah, I got a really good deal on the MS-8 so it's worth it for the processing power alone! I was hoping to get by on the included amp to make back some funds on other pieces of this car stereo adventure, but I've noticed amps are a lot more reasonable than they were even 10 years ago. 

Do you have a recommendation for an inexpensive amp or amps that hit way above their weight?


----------



## KillerBox

I bought my son a PPI 900.4 & P1000.1 & they sound good for the price. I think Polk & SoundStream use the same boards in their amps.

On my my MS8, I am using three Arc Audio 1200.6 & they sound great but, are of course more expensive.


----------



## kevinduckworth

*Re: multi-channel input to capture non-music vehicle tones & voices*

Having sold my Escape where my MS-8 worked great including with all the beeps and voices generated by SYNC2 I'm now investigating installation in my new 2019 Honda Ridgeline RTL-E ("RL" hereafter).

The RL has 8 discrete channel outputs from it's amp:
FR L & R woofer (2 ch)
FR L & R tweeter (2 ch)
FR Center (1 ch)
Rear L & R (2 ch)
Subwoofer (1 ch)
Total = 8 channels and I would like to have those same 8 channels out from the MS-8 after processing.

Another member abandoned installation of his MS-8 in an RL upon finding Navigation directions were not broadcast through the speakers[/url] even with all 8 OEM channels routed to the MS-8. I do not know which OEM amp outputs were directed to which MS-8 inputs in that case. 

I've not started my install yet but being hard-headed and liking the MS-8 with Logic 7 I want to try to find a solution / workaround.

*My Suspicion About Why*

The RL Nav Guidance Voice (among other vehicle generated non-music voices/tones) are only broadcast on the OEM center channel.

I do not _know_ the OEM 'up-mixing' scheme but I _suspect_ that the audio (music) on the center channel is simple L+R.

Further, I _suspect_ that during the MS-8 setup it determines that the center input is sending a signal (L+R) that is already provided by the discrete L & R inputs, therefore isn't needed for proper music processing, and therefore the MS-8 _ignores_ (shuts-off) the center input channel. The result being that when a different from L & R signal is sent to the center (e.g. a Nav Voice) it does not get sent through the MS-8 for broadcast to any speakers.

……. *Does anyone know if ^that^ suspicion about how the MS-8 treats a 'redundant' L+R input is correct?*

*Is There A Solution / Workaround?*

Assuming for now that I'm correct in the above ….

Is there a way to _force_ the MS-8 to include an L+R input in the audio stream it processes for broadcast to the speaker outputs? Would using the MS-8 CH 1 input for the OEM amp Center Output make any difference? What about using MS-8 inputs 7 or 8 which seem to have special significance (noting the instruction that sub input must always go to input channel 8)?

I can (and will) test this but I'm looking for any insights I can get to help make that exercise as efficient as possible.

_Aside - leaving the OEM center output 'as original' without sending it to the MS-8 is not an option because it does broadcast music and having that play when all other channels go through the MS-8 with it's ~8 millisecond delay (at least) would royally screw-up my front stage._

Sorry for the long post / explanation, but IMO it's an interesting challenge.

*Thoughts/suggestions from the DIYMA 'MS-8 expert collective' would be most appreciated!

Thanks In Advance!*

FYI here's a matrix explaining the logic used by the OEM system for distributing audio (music) vs non-music beeps, tones and voices:
[/QUOTE]



Apologies if this reply find you late; hopefully this can assist & reassure you that hope is not lost with the MS-8. You are on it 90% it seems...
I too desired to retain full center channel functionality (factory bluetooth/phone audio) & an actual center channel for music... As we know driving on the left-side creates a mis-balance that only a single spot in the vehicle is "sweet"... Much like the principals of home-theater a good center driver nullifies that issue. 
My vehicle is a Jeep Grand Cherokee... What I did after much research into finding the ideal DSP, figuring out the outputs & frequency & Phasing out of the factory system, etc is the following inputs into the speaker inputs of the MS-8: 
Ch1: L Front tweeter
Ch2: R Front tweeter
Ch3: L Front midbass
Ch4: R Front midbass
Ch5: Center-Dash
Ch7: Left factory sub
Ch8: Right factory sub

Outputs from the MS-8 are as follows:
Ch1: L-front tweeter (on MS-8 amp)
Ch2: R-front tweeter (on MS-8 amp)
Ch3: L-front midbass (on external amp)
Ch4: R-front midbass (on external amp)
Ch5: L-Rear/side (on MS-8 amp)
Ch6: R-Rear/side (on MS-8 amp)
Ch7: Center-channel in dashboard (on internal amp of MS-8)
Ch8: Mono Sub (on external amp)

Read the manual 2x to make sure you fully understand the setup (a refresher is never a bad thing). ;-)
Take your time, following the instructions on the CD file to a "T"... And of course this longass forum has some good tips too. 
Your mileage may vary, but I was fortunate enough to get Any W. (former JBL product manager) to PM me thoughts & guidance on my setup & how the DSP would handle the center input/output. 

Re-tune it a couple times, as you get used to it for a few days at a time... You will find that you begin to listen "differently" than what you used to. It's just not right to have an anchored center image in a car, or so we used to "think"... I actually dialed my emphasis down a bit in the Ctr-level menu; the side/rear of my 5.1 setup is minimal emphasis, but just enough to miss it when it's faded out by a couple notches (just like a good Dolby system @ home). 

Hope this all helps, I have been pretty content with my setup as is for probably 4 years now, only re-EQ it a couple of times. The MS-8 is a wonderful unit that aligns, de EQs, corrects into 2ch, upmixes, puts delay back in where needed, & then "cabin EQ" the whole system... Pretty wonderful indeed! 

If you need further assistance, email me & I'll try to advise where I can. 
- Kevin


----------



## billqs

Latest update on MS-8 and my build. I have all 8 outs hooked post factory amp which allows use of factory volume switch & steering wheel controls. I also have an AUX out which I tapped into the incoming signal from the head unit (which contains L & R full range at speaker level, no volume adjustment) and share it with a regular passive LOC to the AUX.

When running either one of these the MS-8 is stating Level too low. I can get the 8 channels to read an acceptable level, but I have to push all level controls to max (Bass, Mid, Treble). Is this normal? Is the MS-8 relatively insensitve? Is there a noticeable signal drop when running a tap into the line to a passive LOC?

Thanks for everyone's help!


----------



## KillerBox

I only use RCA inputs so I am not 100% sure but, I think the MS 8 can take speaker connections directly up to 15v.

With that being said, the MS-8 RCA inputs can be driven with just about any aftermarket head unit. My 5v Kenwood headunit will overdrive the MS-8 inputs so use the Kenwood's volume offset controls at -5 (lowest setting) to get the voltage down where the MS 8 likes it. And I only use two of MS-8 inputs too.


----------



## gumbeelee

billqs said:


> Latest update on MS-8 and my build. I have all 8 outs hooked post factory amp which allows use of factory volume switch & steering wheel controls. I also have an AUX out which I tapped into the incoming signal from the head unit (which contains L & R full range at speaker level, no volume adjustment) and share it with a regular passive LOC to the AUX.
> 
> 
> 
> When running either one of these the MS-8 is stating Level too low. I can get the 8 channels to read an acceptable level, but I have to push all level controls to max (Bass, Mid, Treble). Is this normal? Is the MS-8 relatively insensitve? Is there a noticeable signal drop when running a tap into the line to a passive LOC?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for everyone's help!




U should not be maxing treble, mid, and bass out. If i were u i would just use an aftermarket deck


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## gumbeelee

billqs said:


> Latest update on MS-8 and my build. I have all 8 outs hooked post factory amp which allows use of factory volume switch & steering wheel controls. I also have an AUX out which I tapped into the incoming signal from the head unit (which contains L & R full range at speaker level, no volume adjustment) and share it with a regular passive LOC to the AUX.
> 
> 
> 
> When running either one of these the MS-8 is stating Level too low. I can get the 8 channels to read an acceptable level, but I have to push all level controls to max (Bass, Mid, Treble). Is this normal? Is the MS-8 relatively insensitve? Is there a noticeable signal drop when running a tap into the line to a passive LOC?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for everyone's help!




U r gonna have trouble as well with the factory amp i woukd bypass it and go with an aftermarket amp and deck


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## billqs

Thanks, Gumbeelee! You more than anyone else on the forum know what trouble my car has given me! I appreciate all your help.

I wish replacing the deck was a realistic option on this car. The head unit controls the climate, emergency signal and warning noises in addition to what you would expect, like Hands Free Phone, Nav and Reverse Camera. That's part of the reason I was going for a DSP so I could continue to use the stock unit.

Everyday working on this I get closer to buying a little single DIN deck and mounting it in the glove compartment. I have all speaker wires available to me, but they are in the trunk.


----------



## billqs

I've been very concerned about getting the level up to "ok", but I went back to the beginning and found this comment from Andy Wehmeyer:

When you're adjusting the volume during setup, the display will tell you whether the signal is too high, too low, too far right or too far left. *Once it gives you the OK, then you know the level at which there's clipping*--whether that's from the head unit or the inputs of MS-8. You make a note of that level on the head unit and that becomes your new "max volume"--if you're playing a signal with all high bits.

So, I thought by looking for "Signal Level OK" I was trying to feed a minimum signal to the MS-8 so that it could read the head unit. If the above comment is correct, then I'm actually trying to provide the *loudest* signal I can produce until there is clipping. This may mean that I shouldn't be concerned that I have to max out my unit to meet the Signal Level Ok. My head unit just has a very high volume that is met before it clips.

Does this seem right?


----------



## KillerBox

I don’t exactly understand your question but, as soon as the MS8 says ok, ok, ok. That should be your new max volume on an all high bits CD (maximum volume CD).

That should give you apps. a 2v output out of the MS8 RCAs, if you are connecting external amplifiers. You can then set the amplifiers gain inputs for 2v so everything clips at the same time.


----------



## FordEscape

billqs said:


> I've been very concerned about getting the level up to "ok".....


Suggested reading (this thread on 07-05-2010): Andy Wehmeyer - Too much has been made over the years about gain and level setting....


----------



## billqs

My specific problem is that when running the MS-8 setup, until I get "Level OK" it doesn't move on to the next check. I have to add more volume some way or it will just stay there and not complete set up.

I am only getting Level OK by maxing out the volume on the Head Unit and having to pump up all three tone settings between +3 and Max to get the last extra volume that lets it show "OK". 

I also have a speaker level signal coming out of the headunit which is full bandwidth L and R, but the amp controls the volume so I would have to use only the MS-8 volume control. However, this does not have a sufficient signal to get "Level OK" either.

I'd much prefer to hit the necessary volume (voltage) level while leaving my factory head unit flat. I'm not as worried about the MS-8's performance since I now understand that its trying to voltage match to a high level just below clipping rather than the Level indicating a minimum where it can begin "hearing" the signal. But I still would rather not "goose" up the tone buttons (even if I do all three to the same level) as I don't want to throw the MS-8 off any more than necessary in the re-eq process. As I see it my choices are:

1. Leave it as-is with the last bit of necessary signal coming from increased low mid and high tone settings.

2. Hooking in the rear speakers along with the front speakers so that the entire factory power is attempting to meet the voltage level for "Level Ok". This would probably allow enough voltage without setting the tone controls that really should be flat.

3. Tapping the head unit full signal without volume control and adding a line driver to increase the volume going into the MS-8. I have a Lepai 20 watt Class T amp that I could use perhaps.

4. The subwoofer channels appear to be full-bandwidth on the factory amp on this Jaguar. It also has higher volume. I could run a LOC from it to the low inputs on the MS-8 to see if that provides enough signal to work.

I am extremely open to other suggestions!


----------



## Tweaked

*Re: JBL's MS-8 processor! ABRIDGED*



FordEscape said:


> Maybe useful for the latecomers to bring this up again .... DIYMA JBL MS-8 Andy's Wisdom.pdf
> 
> It's the 'all meat, no cereal' PDF (and virus-free, scanned by AVG) version of the first 10,165 posts (~400 pages) to this thread I complied back in October of 2014. In other words, all of Andy Wehmeyer's posts (and a few others like kaigoss69) _without_ the raves, rants, redundant questions, etc.
> 
> At 84 pages it's still a lot to get through but contains ~95% of the _substantive_ content of this thread - honestly very little truly _new_ info has been posted here since then.
> 
> I see it's been downloaded over 100 times, hopefully helpful for some, all just FYI.
> 
> 
> I urge folks new to the MS8 or wanting to fully exploit it to also read this incredibly helpful thread https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/98699-jbl-ms-8-faq.html
> 
> Finally, there's this webpage harman - old - MS-8 where the full Owners Manual, Sales spec sheet, and acoustic calibration CD file can be downloaded - an invaluable set of resources there.
> 
> Amazing to see how quick MS8's fly when offered for sale ..... IMHO a testament to how brilliant Andy and the team that developed the toy were, and proof that there's _still_ nothing else that quite matches its unique and useful combination of features.


Hello FordEscape, I only just found this post of yours. Unfortunately, the links for both the PDF of "Andy's Wisdom" and the link to download the manual and CD, are invalid. Can you please relink them? I would be most grateful.


----------



## FordEscape

*Re: JBL's MS-8 processor! ABRIDGED*



Tweaked said:


> Hello FordEscape, I only just found this post of yours. Unfortunately, the links for both the PDF of "Andy's Wisdom" and the link to download the manual and CD, are invalid. Can you please relink them? I would be most grateful.


Please see my revised sig-block for links


----------



## billqs

Much better answer supplied above so I removed my message.


----------



## KillerBox

I have a theory about the lack of midbass on the MS8 calibration & would like to ask anyone that has ever experience it, 

if you were using a center channel speaker or not?


----------



## Tweaked

KillerBox said:


> I have a theory about the lack of midbass on the MS8 calibration & would like to ask anyone that has ever experience it,
> 
> if you were using a center channel speaker or not?


I do not run a center channel. Just a bi-amped two way front stage with rears powered by the MS-8. I had to do a lot of equalization to get midbass. My doors are treated with Stinger Roadkill, and I installed the Stinger FAST Rings. It took a lot of EQ, but I was able to get decent midbass, and a reasonably flat response in my car. Additionally, I was finally able to get a good center image. I had to reduce the gain on my subs. I read where Andy recommended running the sweeps around 85db. So I used my DB meter during the sweeps and noticed that although my mids and highs were around 79db, my sub was peaking around 103. It didn't sound all that loud to me, but according to Andy, that will clip the calibration mic and screw up the TA giving you a smeared center image.


----------



## billqs

Success!!!!

After one last brain fart, wherein I put the output RCAs into the inputs, I got it all sorted out input/output set up, 4 positions calibrated and it sounds really great!

Of course, I've got some tweaking to do. Sub level was very high and even after bringing it down most bass sounds like it comes from the sub. I crossed over at 100, I'm now thinking it should be 80 or 85.


----------



## justin30513

I need remotes!
Please 2 is what need.
Thank you!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


----------



## Kocil

Dear all.
I just installed a new (but old of course) JBL MS8, but found situation
as follow:
- The car ground was not connected to the battery
- The MS8's remote IN was not connected 
- Power (+) and (-) were connected
- The display cable was connected

then when I connected the car ground again,
the MS8's blue LED was illuminated forever, until the GND is disconnected. 

But when the display cable was disconnected,
and the GND was connected again,
the blue ligh illuminated for a short while, then went off.

Is it normal ?
Any cure, or should I return the product ?


----------



## drop1

I cant help you, I just find it amazing that this thread is still going.


----------



## ricanmeng

I just got my 2019 Nissan Altima SR non-Bose system installed and am having some strange distortion on 3/4 volume and a tough time tuning. If I do tuning myself with processing defeated it sounds better overall tonally but lack the time alignment, at that point it is just crossovers and EQ. See my setup below and recommend my next course of action. Be it active 2 way in the front using my existing speakers, 3 way with a midrange from the same series, make a center using an aftermarket enclosure and 6.5" coaxial, change DSP, or settle with what I have gotten. I have tried the measurements several times with level matching and various volumes but still am getting the same issues. Tweeters in factory dash locations, woofers in the front door, 6x9's in rear deck. Sub in the trunk facing outward.

My System:

JBL GX608C 2 way 6.5" Component - Passively crossed over fed from Channels 1&2 of Kenwood Excelon X301.4
JBL GX 3 way 6x9 Coaxials - Channels 3&4 of Kenwood Excelon X301.4

Diamond Audio 12" Sub inside of OBcon Godzilla Slotted Enclosure. Single Channel of Kenwood Excelon X500.1


----------



## FordEscape

*STILL Uniquely Capable*



drop1 said:


> I cant help you, I just find it amazing that this thread is still going.


What's amazing (impressive) is that Andy, his team, and JBL managed to bring a product to the market that now a decade later is _*still*_ uniquely capable and competitive in the market.

We're fortunate that in addition to the unique features, they managed to produce an item that's proven reasonably robust. It's still quite possible to find units that haven't been abused, haven't had critical components lost, and have every reasonable expectation of delivering great SQ for a long time to come, all at a very good price on the used market.

You can find items that touch _some_ of the bases, but still nothing that covers _all_ of the bases the MS8 does. Nope, _it's not for everyone_, never was, but there's still nothing else that touches it in the niche it was _designed to fill_. And that niche still exists.

*IMO*


----------



## KillerBox

*Re: STILL Uniquely Capable*



FordEscape said:


> What's amazing (impressive) is that Andy, his team, and JBL managed to bring a product to the market that now a decade later is _*still*_ uniquely capable and competitive in the market.
> 
> We're fortunate that in addition to the unique features, they managed to produce an item that's proven reasonably robust. It's still quite possible to find units that haven't been abused, haven't had critical components lost, and have every reasonable expectation of delivering great SQ for a long time to come, all at a very good price on the used market.
> 
> You can find items that touch _some_ of the bases, but still nothing that covers _all_ of the bases the MS8 does. Nope, _it's not for everyone_, never was, but there's still nothing else that touches it in the niche it was _designed to fill_. And that niche still exists.
> 
> *IMO*


I agree and I have got a boatload of them in an air condition closet for spares until something else better comes along.


----------



## KillerBox

ricanmeng said:


> I just got my 2019 Nissan Altima SR non-Bose system installed and am having some strange distortion on 3/4 volume and a tough time tuning. If I do tuning myself with processing defeated it sounds better overall tonally but lack the time alignment, at that point it is just crossovers and EQ. See my setup below and recommend my next course of action. Be it active 2 way in the front using my existing speakers, 3 way with a midrange from the same series, make a center using an aftermarket enclosure and 6.5" coaxial, change DSP, or settle with what I have gotten. I have tried the measurements several times with level matching and various volumes but still am getting the same issues. Tweeters in factory dash locations, woofers in the front door, 6x9's in rear deck. Sub in the trunk facing outward.
> 
> My System:
> 
> JBL GX608C 2 way 6.5" Component - Passively crossed over fed from Channels 1&2 of Kenwood Excelon X301.4
> JBL GX 3 way 6x9 Coaxials - Channels 3&4 of Kenwood Excelon X301.4
> 
> Diamond Audio 12" Sub inside of OBcon Godzilla Slotted Enclosure. Single Channel of Kenwood Excelon X500.1


My suggestion is to get what you have working properly first and then add to it. To make it easy, I would cross your front JBLs @ 80hz and your rear JBLs @ 100hz - all at a 24db slope. 

Your subsonic filter needs to be set according to your tuning frequency of your box and subs. (You don't want any speaker trying to play a frequency it is not capable of playing)

I would then find the maximum volume on your Nissan radio by turning it up until you see ok, ok, ok on the MS-8. This is around the maximum you need to turn up the Nissan radio.

Then run the MS-8 auto-tune with your amplifier gains at minimum and (rough guessing around -35) on the MS-8. 

After the auto-tune, turn the MS-8 up to -6 on its volume. Then with a Zero Bit track MS-8 volume @ -6 and the predetermined maximum volume on the Nissan radio, turn up your front amplifier gain until you start to hear a hiss from your tweeters and then turn it back down a little bit. This is your maximum undistorted volume level for the Nissan, amplifier and MS-8.

Turn volume back down and set the other amplifier gains the similar amount of gain. Then play a track that you are familiar with to make sure your speakers are NOT being overpowered and everything blends together.

P.S. Save yourself a lot of time, by downloading a free speaker pop program for your phone and verify that each midrange speaker is in positive polarity (by disconnecting all other speakers other than the one you are verifying) before doing the MS-8. (The tweeters may in negative polarity depending on your passive crossovers.) The subwoofer also may be in negative polarity depending on what sounds the best in your system. So you I would try the subwoofer both polarities and rerun the calibration each time.

Also, the MS-8 does a better job if you can disconnect or cover the tweeters for the first step in each seating position. This makes the time alignment work off the midrange location instead of the tweeter's location.


----------



## ricanmeng

KillerBox said:


> My suggestion is to get what you have working properly first and then add to it. To make it easy, I would cross your front JBLs @ 80hz and your rear JBLs @ 100hz - all at a 24db slope.
> 
> Your subsonic filter needs to be set according to your tuning frequency of your box and subs. (You don't want any speaker trying to play a frequency it is not capable of playing)
> 
> I would then find the maximum volume on your Nissan radio by turning it up until you see ok, ok, ok on the MS-8. This is around the maximum you need to turn up the Nissan radio.
> 
> Then run the MS-8 auto-tune with your amplifier gains at minimum and (rough guessing around -35) on the MS-8.
> 
> After the auto-tune, turn the MS-8 up to -6 on its volume. Then with a Zero Bit track MS-8 volume @ -6 and the predetermined maximum volume on the Nissan radio, turn up your front amplifier gain until you start to hear a hiss from your tweeters and then turn it back down a little bit. This is your maximum undistorted volume level for the Nissan, amplifier and MS-8.
> 
> Turn volume back down and set the other amplifier gains the similar amount of gain. Then play a track that you are familiar with to make sure your speakers are NOT being overpowered and everything blends together.
> 
> P.S. Save yourself a lot of time, by downloading a free speaker pop program for your phone and verify that each midrange speaker is in positive polarity (by disconnecting all other speakers other than the one you are verifying) before doing the MS-8. (The tweeters may in negative polarity depending on your passive crossovers.) The subwoofer also may be in negative polarity depending on what sounds the best in your system. So you I would try the subwoofer both polarities and rerun the calibration each time.
> 
> Also, the MS-8 does a better job if you can disconnect or cover the tweeters for the first step in each seating position. This makes the time alignment work off the midrange location instead of the tweeter's location.


Thank you Killer Box,

I have already tried all of those items you listed after exhaustively reading the thread. I had the MS-8 connected in my Ford flex previously with the same amps and subs, but Kicker CS speakers and a center. It sounded great. I am just worried about pissing money down the hole for negligible returns after I already spend a good chunk dampening this car and getting it installed professionally (vs my rinky electrical tape work and velcro). My next step is to do the front 2 way active, but then I would end up running all the cabin speakers off of the MS-8 amps so I don't have to worry about level matching for them and gain structure.


----------



## ricanmeng

The main issue I have with the MS-8 processing being active in this car is the sound being hollow and distortion of certain frequencies at normal listening levels (80% of my volume on the HU).


----------



## Kocil

Horray ... my brand new MS-8 installation is working.
Love it.
A lot of thanks to the enginneers who made this vintage DSP,
and this resourcefull forum.

:beerchug:

Now I want to add the center speaker.
I read here that it should be aimed off-axis to the windshield.
But my center will be a 2 way speakers (4" and 1") in a custom pod.
The question is, should both speakers aimed off-axis,
or just the 4" while the 1" is still on-axis.

Thank you.


----------



## FordEscape

Kocil said:


> Now I want to add the center speaker.


Suggest you ask yourself: "*Why* do I want to add the center?"

IF to provide a less-compromised stage for two front listening positions, then ask yourself: "What 'axis' makes sense when considering *two* positions?"

IF to try to enhance the driver-only listening situation … my suggestion is: "Don't".

(IME, and I've BTDT back and forth with and without an MS8 center using a variety of speakers, it _*does*_ accomplish the former; but it *doesn't* accomplish the latter, in fact *hurts* compared to a well-tuned no-center setup optimized for driver only). YMMV


----------



## Kocil

FordEscape said:


> Suggest you ask yourself: "*Why* do I want to add the center?"
> 
> IF to provide a less-compromised stage for two front listening positions, then ask yourself: "What 'axis' makes sense when considering *two* positions?"


Yes, for two front listening position.
I drive with my wive every day, and we both enjoy the musics.

Regarding the axis, my understanding is that 
the center speaker on the center of the dash can be on-axis for
driver and passenger, since both positions are still in the 30 degree 
envelope of the speaker (left and right of course).

Meanwhile, the right and left speakers are:
- midbass : off axis in the door
- midrange : off axis on the A pilar
- tweeter : on axis on the A pilar 

So i was asking my self, since the R/L tweeters are on-axis,
maybe the center tweeter should be on axis too for balancing.

An example is here ...

Volvo-bowerswilkins-center-speaker


----------



## mzmtg

Kocil said:


> Regarding the axis, my understanding is that
> the center speaker on the center of the dash can be on-axis for
> driver and passenger, since both positions are still in the 30 degree
> envelope of the speaker (left and right of course).


This paper has some good insight into how to mount speakers on the dash in relation to the windshield: *Considerations for the Optimal Location and Boundary Effects for Loudspeakers in an Automotive Interior*


----------



## Kocil

mzmtg said:


> This paper has some good insight into how to mount speakers on the dash in relation to the windshield: *Considerations for the Optimal Location and Boundary Effects for Loudspeakers in an Automotive Interior*


Dang.
I did not expect to get a paper for an answer.
Thank you very much, really appreciate it.


----------



## SloVic

drop1 said:


> I cant help you, I just find it amazing that this thread is still going.


It is still one of the few DSP's that has a solid auto tune option without spending ~$1000 and still requiring a lot of user knowledge and involvement. I was planning on getting the CDSP 8x12 (before Dirac Live was announced) but then decided to buy a used MS8 because it was a good deal cheaper and I figured it would give me a solid idea of what a well tuned system can really sound like. Will be going in my mom's truck whenever I decide to splurge on a CDSP 8x12 DL.


----------



## Kocil

mzmtg said:


> This paper has some good insight into how to mount speakers on the dash in relation to the windshield: *Considerations for the Optimal Location and Boundary Effects for Loudspeakers in an Automotive Interior*



Just want to report, following the paper, here is my center channel.
The speaker is the same fullrange as the front R/L,
the box is custom made.


----------



## mzmtg

Kocil said:


> Just want to report, following the paper, here is my center channel.
> The speaker is the same fullrange as the front R/L,
> the box is custom made.


Nice! 

I got mine installed in the factory location. It's not hooked up yet. I have to replace a tweeter before I can retune the ms-8. 

Speaker is a Dayton CX120-8 4" coaxial driver with a 3/4" silk tweeter in the middle.


----------



## Kocil

mzmtg said:


> Nice!
> 
> I got mine installed in the factory location. It's not hooked up yet. I have to replace a tweeter before I can retune the ms-8.
> 
> Speaker is a Dayton CX120-8 4" coaxial driver with a 3/4" silk tweeter in the middle.


Lucky you.
My car dont have a factory center speaker,
thus the best I can put on the dashboard is only a 3" fullrange.
It is an Audible Physics NZ3 Albe, a decent one, 
but still only works quite well above 400 Hz.
Cannot push it lower than that, because the pod rattles.

I was wondering if a Morel PowerSlim 6 Ultra Shallow Integra Coaxial will 
be perfect on there. Any though ?


----------



## Kocil

Dear all, 
right now i'm using 2 channels of MS8 for rear speaker.
Since i read about hafler setup, the rear signals are R-L and L-R.
So I wonder, can we use just 1 channel of MS8 for rear speakers,
by reversing the polarity of the right and left speakers ?


----------



## MattyKHZ

Does anyone know if something like the technic PnP is still available so that i can easily install in a BMW in place of the stock amplifier using existing cabling so it can be easily returned to standard?


----------



## zapps

I need help fellas.

I finally got around to adding a sub to my newish car. I installed the MS-8 over the summer and it's been running my front stage, rear fill and center. I got the sub and amp hooked up, started tuning and realized I hadn't connected the remote out from the MS-8 to the sub amp. I shut the car off mid tune, hooked up the remote out, and started the car. The Display now shows "Please Wait" and goes blank completely. No backlight, nothing. 

The unit started up mid-tune and I kinda completed the acoustic calibration without the display. It sounds like pure dookie, but the unit still responds to remote, volume up and down. 

I read that some ms-8 owners had success resoldering the display connector in the ma-8. I disassembled the main unit and the connector seems very well seated, no obvious signs of broken anything. It's fully covered in the white adhesive.

I put it all back together and plugged in the display cord to the unit. I used my DMM in DC mode and can read a voltage across the connector segments (3V, 3V, 5V) on the male end that plugs into the display. I noticed a tiny bit of oxidation on the tip of the male display connector, so I opened up the display and across the little solder mounds I still read 3V, 3V and 5V. 

I tried checking all connections, and the unit is powered on, is processing sound and responding to the remote. I tried the reset button, which makes the speakers pop but otherwise seems to do nothing.

Any ideas?


----------



## zapps

zapps said:


> I need help fellas.
> 
> 
> 
> I finally got around to adding a sub to my newish car. I installed the MS-8 over the summer and it's been running my front stage, rear fill and center. I got the sub and amp hooked up, started tuning and realized I hadn't connected the remote out from the MS-8 to the sub amp. I shut the car off mid tune, hooked up the remote out, and started the car. The Display now shows "Please Wait" and goes blank completely. No backlight, nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> The unit started up mid-tune and I kinda completed the acoustic calibration without the display. It sounds like pure dookie, but the unit still responds to remote, volume up and down.
> 
> 
> 
> I read that some ms-8 owners had success resoldering the display connector in the ma-8. I disassembled the main unit and the connector seems very well seated, no obvious signs of broken anything. It's fully covered in the white adhesive.
> 
> 
> 
> I put it all back together and plugged in the display cord to the unit. I used my DMM in DC mode and can read a voltage across the connector segments (3V, 3V, 5V) on the male end that plugs into the display. I noticed a tiny bit of oxidation on the tip of the male display connector, so I opened up the display and across the little solder mounds I still read 3V, 3V and 5V.
> 
> 
> 
> I tried checking all connections, and the unit is powered on, is processing sound and responding to the remote. I tried the reset button, which makes the speakers pop but otherwise seems to do nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Any ideas?


Edit, fixed it. The unit was responding to the remote so I opened up the manual, found out where Reset Defaults was in the manual, and clicked the arrows until I got it. The unit reset and the display works!

Now, anyone care to share the setup disc audio file, pretty please? 

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk


----------



## FordEscape

zapps said:


> Now, anyone care to share the setup disc audio file, pretty please?


See my sig-block for link (you may need to be on your computer, not TapaTalk). 

Click the download symbol near the upper right corner, you don't need a google account or sign-in. Keep as a .wav, do *not* convert to any compressed / lossy format.


----------



## zapps

Thank you thank you thank you! It's holiday season come early, my MS-8 is back! 

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk


----------



## Kocil

Happy merry christmas and new year to all ....

Pardon me for asking this on your holiday.

I have read this on the MS-8 manual
"NOTE: You can power some of the system's speakers by the MS-8's amplifiers and some by outboard
amplifiers, but you should use only one connection type per output. For example, output channel 1 may use the
MS-8's amplifer OR an outboard amplifier, but not both. Be sure to use the chart above to note which speakers
are connected to which MS-8 channels."

The keyword here is "should", and my question is "can we actually use both ?"

I'm asking because my system uses 2 channels of MS-8 for 3 way front like this:


Code:


[MS-8 ch1]-----(RCA)-----[ext amp 40w]-------------[mid bass]
[MS-8 ch2]-+---(RCA)-----[ext amp 25w]----[XO]+----[mid range]
                                              +----[tweeter]

For more balanced power, I wonder if this configuration would work


Code:


[MS-8 ch1]-----(RCA)-----[ext amp 40w]-------------[mid bass]
[MS-8 ch2]-+---(RCA)-----[ext amp 25w]----[HPF]----[mid range]
           +---(internal amp 18w)---------[LPF]----[tweeter]

Thanks for your thought.


----------



## seafish

I am gonna have to guess that in this case, the word "should" actually means "MUST" and that perhaps it has something to do with how the MS8 sets its automatic GAIN structure when self tuning.

Of course, it IS possible that doing so might also let the magic smoke out of your amp,

And THAT said, since I have NO factual idea WHAT would happen, I am in to read someone else's answer to your legitimate question, though it kind of feels like Clinton wondering what the word "is" means during his impeachment trial. JK/ LOL


----------



## gumbeelee

seafish said:


> I am gonna have to guess that in this case, the word "should" actually means "MUST" and that perhaps it has something to do with how the MS8 sets its automatic GAIN structure when self tuning.
> 
> Of course, it IS possible that doing so might also let the magic smoke out of your amp,
> 
> And THAT said, since I have NO factual idea WHAT would happen, I am in to read someone else's answer to your legitimate question, though it kind of feels like Clinton wondering what the word "is" means during his impeachment trial. JK/ LOL


^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^ DO NOT USE HI LEVEL AND RCA ON THE SAME OUTPUT CHANNEL OR U PROBABLY WILL HAVE BLACK SMOKE!!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Kocil

?
OK .... point taken ....


----------



## lavesa

Bumping an ancient post. I've installed the MS8 into my 3rd BMW. However, I'm missing the calibration CD so I have to skip the input setup which is not recommended if using the OEM HU.

According to Andy, in one of his 5000 posts, skipping the input setup will use the MS8 inputs from line 1 and 2 and "set the filters to unity" which he says means what comes in goes out. The MS8 will shut off the rest of the inputs connected, including the subs. I don't know if this is exactly true or not because the manual states to set the sub speaker outs to inputs 7 & 8. And if you use an aftermarket HU that you can skip the input setup. If skipping only uses line 1 and 2, the MS8 is assuming the aftermarket HU is providing a flat 2-channel signal which I suppose is valid.

From Andy:



> Choosing "Skip input setup" connects inputs 1 and 2, (speaker or line level) to the input of the DSP and disconnects the other inputs and skips the input EQ. If you know you have a reasonably flat 2-channel signal, there's no need for input signal "conditioning".


If you skip the input setup, you have to set the gains on your mid bass speaker amp close to 2V. I set them all to 2V but I think it would be best to try to level match the other speakers to your main door speakers by using the gain on the amps. This could be why my mid bass is always lacking because the subs are too loud during acoustic calibration. However, using kaigoss69 method (explained later) solves this problem as well. It's just not as easy to "re-calibrate" trying different settings because you have to adjust gains, switch amp inputs, etc. which is a pain in my case because of where the amps are installed. More on that later.

From what I understand, during the input setup procedure the HU volume is set close to the 2.8v max input of the MS8. The MS8 will then sum all of the inputs to create a flat 2 channel signal (un-eq the source and remove channel delay). Because of this, it's only necessary to hook up enough of the speaker out lines from the HU to provide the full range for left and right (Front L&R) and then the sub or subs on input 7 or 8. It reduces the amount of work the MS8 since it is not processing an additional 4 inputs for rear door and rear deck which should be the same signal coming from the fronts.

From Andy:



> "If you're connecting to a factory system that includes a subwoofer and you're connecting the subwoofer output to the input of MS-8, the sub output of the factory system should be connected to MS-8's input 7 or 8. In order for MS-8 to sort out the right and left and mono channels and to remove the factory time alignment, *it has to see a high-frequency channel before a low-frequency mono channel as it samples the incoming signals.*"





> So, with MS-8, the analog signal from the source is converted into a digital signal in the unit before anything else happens. The RCAs are fixed input sensitivity and are designed to work with all aftermarket head units without any user intervention. Just plug them in and go. The unit, without EQ, is designed to provide unity gain up to 2.8V, which is plenty. That means if you put 1V in, you get 1V out. If you put 2V in, you get 2V out. If you put 9V in, you'll get 2.8V out but it'll be seriously distorted. When you turn the output of your radio down so that you send 2.8V, you'll get 2.8V that isn't clipped.
> 
> Since the MS-8 is designed to provide unity gain, it's sufficient to set the input sensitivity of the amplifiers to the same setting as the output of your head unit for 0dB of gain overlap between MS-8 and your amps). This will ensure no input clipping of your amplifiers and will ensure the least noise possible. Double the input sensitivity will result in an additional 6dB of gain. So, if your head unit is a 4V unit, you can set the input sensitivity of the amps to about 1V, which will give you a total of about 9dB of "overlap". Precision isn't required.
> 
> You can determine the point at which your radio outputs about 2.8V by putting the setup disc in your aftermarket radio and running input setup. The point at which you get OK OK OK is the point at which your radio outputs about 2.8V. You can continue to run input setup and MS-8 will Un-EQ and remove any channel delay. If you're using an aftermarket radio, none of that should be necessary so all of the EQ filters will be set to unity. That means what comes in goes out. If you choose "skip input setup", all of the filters will be set to unity.


Back to my concern of skipping the input setup for my BMW HU: The MS8 will assume that I'm providing a flat 2-channel signal while it does the acoustic calibration? What if it's not flat? What about the sub inputs that are supposedly ignored when you skip setup? 

Also, I don't have the sub speaker outs going into inputs 7&8 so what was I missing in my previous installs where I could actually run the input setup? I have my front speaker as inputs 1&2 and my subs as 3&4. I also have center on 5 and rear doors on 6&7. Was I okay since the MS8 sampled the high-frequency channels first? I'm concerned that the high-frequency signals after the subs may screw it up. I'm going to switch the subs to be 7&8 anyway. Should I remove the rears and/or center inputs since the front speakers should be sending full range signals?

I found an open box MS8 that's never been installed for sale so I bought it. It was from Canada so no telling how long it will take to get here. I plan to re-calibrate using the CD to see if I can tell a difference. I may have a never used MS8 with an open box for sale soon! (the CD will be copied and stored on my phone, my laptop, my computer, on OneDrive and maybe Google drive, just to be sure).

This is my setup and exactly how I did the kaigoss69 method to calibrate my BMW with a trunk sub (sealed JL 12W3v3.4 directly into the car from the ski port)

Alpine PDX F4 (100 watts per channel) - verified at 121w
Channels 1-2 – Morel Hybrid Ovation II 4 2-Way 4" Component Speakers - passive at 1800Hz
Channels 3-4 – Morel Integra Ovation 4" (2-way) - passive at 4000Hz 6dB/octave with tweeter output jumpers to +3db

Alpine PDX F6 (150 watts per channel)
Channels 1-2 – 8” Morel MW265-4 subs
Channels 3-4 – 12” JL 12W3v3.4 - single

Alpine PDX 4.100 (100 watts per channel) (Amp for rear is probably overkill but it's only money, right?)
Channels 1-2 – Factory 4” with tweeter rear door – running in parallel
Channels 3-4 – Factory 4” with tweeter rear deck – running in parallel

MS8 Output Channels

1 - FL (Hi)
2 - 8" sub left
3 - FR (Hi)
4 - 8" sub right
5 - Center
6 - SL
7 - SR
8 - Not used (skipping 12" sub)

Kaigoss method – calibrated without the 12” sub using the 8” subs as lows. Then split the sub output channels from the MS8 to the 4 channels on the amp and used the amps crossovers. 

1. Set amp gains to “Nom” or about 2V for my Alpine amps
2. Turned off amp crossover for 8” subs
3. Skipped input setup
4. Run setup with 2-way front using 8” as subs
a. Sub – 2 subs – 20 Hz sub-sonic, Lo/Hi 150 Hz 24dB/oct
b. Front – 1 way – 150 Hz 24dB/oct
c. Center – 1 way – 150 Hz 24dB/oct
d. Side – 1 way – 200 Hz 24dB/oct
e. Rear – none
5. Run acoustic calibration with MS8 at -35dB
6. Set HP filter on 8” sub amp at 60 Hz,
7. Set LP filter on 12” sub at 60 Hz
8. Split Left 8” sub output (ch2) from the MS8 into channels 1&3 on the sub amp
9. Split Right 8” sub output (ch4) from the MS8 into channels 2&4 on the sub amp
10. Raised the gains on all amps to about .2V except for the 12” sub which I left at “Nom”

Edit: This did not work as I expected. Only one of the under seat subs was firing. During setup, when I tried to select "no sub" and run the front as a 2-way, I could not set a Hi/Lo xover past 100. Does anyone know why??

This sounds better than any other calibration I ever did in my previous BMW installs. Any comments or suggestions are welcomed. I'm curious to see how many MS8 guys are still using the system. It's a shame they stopped producing them. I will attach the 84 page word document that someone created which compiles all of Andy's responses in this 700 page thread. I learned A LOT and my girlfriend thinks I'm a nerd now.

Thanks FordEscape for these links. I now have the WAV file, woohoo!.

Download Links:
_PDF compilation of Andy W's posts through 10/26/14 from the MS-8 Mega Thread
MS-8 Setup Track wav File_

Anybody have firmware binaries? I don't know if I ever updated my firmware or not.


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## lavesa

MattyKHZ said:


> Does anyone know if something like the technic PnP is still available so that i can easily install in a BMW in place of the stock amplifier using existing cabling so it can be easily returned to standard?


I would not bother skipping the stock amp because you will have to spend A LOT to get something that will convert the digital signal. Just use the speaker out wires from the amp into the inputs of your MS8. It's not that difficult, really. You can get the schematics of which wires go to each speaker. Just cut them long enough so you can splice back together. You need to slice anyway to connect your speaker wires coming from your amps back into the car. As for input, make sure you put Front L&R on input channel 1&2 and the subs on 7&8. You probably don't need to even connect center or rears to the inputs because they should have the same full range signal as the front speakers. Do you have a sub in the trunk? I just posted an update with exact steps on the kaigoss method for BMWs with 8" subs under the seat.


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## Whiterabbit

If it sounds good to you, rock it.

If there is no input correction, it only affects the output if you are missing program content. If it is just an EQ issue, then you might be taking care of that during your acoustic setup anyways. If he two channels you are using is missing program material, like bass completely removed, or highs completely removed, you can't EQ that back. If program material is mixed, like center or left getting steered to that right input, etc, then you'll have an issue.

Basically, you're fine so long as the only thing in left is left, and the only thing in right is right, and the only correction needed is to flatten the signal. The output calibration should be able to compensate (double-EQing for the signal and for the speaker).


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## lavesa

MattyKHZ said:


> Does anyone know if something like the technic PnP is still available so that i can easily install in a BMW in place of the stock amplifier using existing cabling so it can be easily returned to standard?


I doubt you will find anything. It's not that difficult, really. You can get the schematics of which wires go to each speaker. Just cut them long enough so you can splice back together. You need to slice anyway to connect your speaker wires coming from your amps back into the car. As for input, make sure you put Front L&R on input channel 1&2 and the subs on 7&8. You probably don't need to even connect center or rears to the inputs because they should have the same full range signal as the front speakers. Do you have a sub in the trunk? I just posted an update with exact steps on the kaigoss method for BMWs with 8" subs under the seat.


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## KillerBox

I copied the entire JBL CD that came with the MS-8. Please remember to keep it as a WAV file and never convert it to a MP3 or something.






JBL MS8 Files - Google Drive







drive.google.com


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## lavesa

Thanks so much! I've been looking for this WAV file for the past week and got two copies in the last hour! Now I just have to find a blank CD. lol 

I guess I could just put it on my thumb drive with all my flac files.


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## KillerBox

lavesa said:


> Thanks so much! I've been looking for this WAV file for the past week and got two copies in the last hour! lol.


With the DIYMobileAudio forum changing, it is hard for me to read compared to the old forum. So I don't even try to read it with my telephone anymore. So I don't come here on the weekends or at night.


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## FordEscape

lavesa said:


> According to Andy, in one of his 5000 posts, skipping the input setup will use the MS8 inputs from line 1 and 2 and "set the filters to unity" which he says means what comes in goes out. The MS8 will shut off the rest of the inputs connected, including the subs. I don't know if this is exactly true or not because the manual states to set the sub speaker outs to inputs 7 & 8. And if you use an aftermarket HU that you can skip the input setup. If skipping only uses line 1 and 2, the MS8 is assuming the aftermarket HU is providing a flat 2-channel signal which I suppose is valid.


So here's my experience FWIW ....

Rev 1 - I set up my MS-8 using speaker level outputs from my Escape (going through full setup / calibration). tried first using only front L&R which were tested and proven to be full-range (o-scope). Sounded great but I lost my backup alarm which I realized were only on rear channels out of the OE HU. So, connected both front and rear channels to MS-8 (inputs 1-4), re-ran setup / calibration, and all was great.

Rev 2 - I learned how to reprogram my OE HU for "flat, low-level output". Connected front and rear to MS-8 low-level inputs 1-4 and *skipped* input setup / calibration. Music sounded great but I again lost my back alarms. _My_ conclusion - indeed MS-8 _*ignored inputs 3&4*_ when calibration / setup was skipped. NOTE - I did NOT check inputs 7&8.

Rev 3 - I ran the "flat, low-level output" in to MS-8 ch 1-4 and ran the setup / calibration. Got my backup alarms back and all sounded great (all inputs, 1-4 were recognized and used for MS-8 output).

Note I did 'subjective perception testing' between using OE HU volume control vs 'set OE volume at calibration level and use MS-8 master volume'; IF there was any difference in SQ it was meaningless to my ears; in day-to-day use I only used my HU volume control, never resorted to the MS-8 remote.

Did the SQ improve by going to "flat, low-level input" and skipping calibration / setup in my case? IMO the answer is "*No*". To my perception the SQ was great and equal in all of the above iterations, the only difference was capturing the backup alarms. _My_ conclusion - if ya got an OE HU just feed what you need to get full range input, whether high or low-level, run the setup / calibration, and press on. IMO the 'magic' that Andy and the team developed for 'de-EQ' at all volumes, etc, etc all works just great - there's no reason to *not* take the KISS approach and connect to an OE HU _exactly_ as recommended.

BTW I enjoy Logic 7, was running front, center, rear ambient fill and sub.

Make of it what you will, all just for your consideration, YMMV, have fun


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## lavesa

That confirms what Andy stated, which isn't surprising. Lol. Now that I have the CD, I'll definitely run the input calibration. 

But I need to decide if it's worth tearing my car apart to move the speaker outputs of the subs to input 7-8 on the ms8. According to Andy, I will be missing mono L&R and remove factory time alignment for the sub. Does this matter? I know timing doesn't matter but I'm not sure what he means by sorting out mono right and left. Any thoughts? 



> If you're connecting to a factory system that includes a subwoofer and you're connecting the subwoofer output to the input of MS-8, the sub output of the factory system should be connected to MS-8's input 7 or 8. In order for MS-8 to sort out the
> right and left and mono channels and to remove the factory time alignment, it has to see a high-frequency channel before a
> low-frequency mono channel as it samples the incoming signals.


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## lavesa

Whiterabbit said:


> If there is no input correction, it only affects the output if you are missing program content. If it is just an EQ issue, then you might be taking care of that during your acoustic setup anyways. If he two channels you are using is missing program material, like bass completely removed, or highs completely removed, you can't EQ that back. If program material is mixed, like center or left getting steered to that right input, etc, then you'll have an issue.


With hu L7 off and everything flat from the HU, wouldn't center, rear and subs send the same exact signal as the fronts, including below 50 Hz? Is there individual factory time alignment to remove for front, center and rears? 

I have fronts, center, rear doors and my subs hooked to inputs although I think I could get away with fewer. Well, I know I can because I calibrated with only fronts and it does rock. Also, I don't think I'm losing any content by not having my subs on inputs 7-8, only time alignment and mono left and right, according to Andy. I'm leaning towards leaving them where they are and just run the input setup.


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## KillerBox

In my opinion, the MS8 input just wants one pair of full range 20hz to 20khz signal. If the OEM signal does roll off, the MS-8 will try to EQ the signal back to flat. So there is no reason to hook up extra channels of inputs after you achieve a full range signal because then you will be just wasting digital headroom.

P.S. I am using an aftermarket Kenwood headunit that puts full range signal out on a pair of RCAs. With my setup (big ported enclosure tuned to 32hz), I was having way too much bass in the 32hz to 50hz range with a dip at 63hz. So much output that the MS-8 graphic EQ @ -10db could not turn down low enough to remove it. So I did install my Kenwood subwoofer output to channels 7 - 8 MS-8 inputs. I then crossed the Kenwoods internal x-over at 60hz at 24db slope. So that one set of RCAs only had 60hz and down. The other set had 60hz to 20khz.

After the MS-8 did its complete install process, I then tried to use the Kenwood's crossover and level output to turn down the bass somewhat. Doing this it looked better on the RTA & FFT but, sounded weird to me.

So now, I just hooked up the one set of full range RCAs, bypassed the Kenwood's x-overs, time alignment & etc. I also tuned my box to 26hz with a 12db @ 23hz subsonic filter. Now the bass is much more manageable but, I am still having to cut 32hz -8.5db, 40hz -10db and 50hz -5db. The only thing that I can figure is from the front seat is that I have a null around 63hz (yes, I have tried flipping the subs polarity to get the best response) and the MS-8 is boosting the rest of bass to fill in this gap.

So in closing, I would run all the wires just in case that I needed them. Then I would only install the minimum number of inputs to achieve a full range signal. Then set up the MS-8 and then turn off the MS-8's processing to see what my system sounded like. Then go back and adjust your crossovers and/or system to help with the gaps and peaks. Then rerun the MS-8 calibration again with your new settings. I hate to say this but, I have rerun mine at least 30 times to I got my sounding like a loud concert. Each time, I would take notes, measurements and listen to it for about a week or more on what it sounded like. But, my system is a full Logic7 system. If you are doing a 2.1 system, this many reruns should not be necessary.

Now I am totally satisfied and have not touched anything on my system in over 6 months (except for trying to fix the car's plastic rattles). I believe MS-8 helped my sound so much that I bought a bunch of spares to keep in reserve until a better upmixer is on the market.


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## KillerBox

This is just front speakers and subwoofers with the MS-8 EQ processing and Logic7 off, center speakers and rear speakers unplugged. I was flipping the subwoofer polarity to find the most output in my trouble zone at around 63hz. As you can see one way is a -20db gap compared to the other way. There is no reason to try to make the MS-8 waste digital headroom to fill in that 20db gap when a simple polarity flip do it.


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## pika_

looking at your FR, I would rise the subsonic filter and increase the overall subwoofer level. What is your crossover between sub and mid bass?


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## KillerBox

This is the full Logic 7 system with the MS8 processor active. No manual EQ applied other than 32hz -8.5db, 40hz -10.0db & 50hz -5db.

The other frequency graph was with no processing, just the front door speakers & subwoofers.

My crossover is at 80hz @ 24dB slope. Subsonic filter at 23hz @ 12dB slope & box tuning at 26hz.


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## KillerBox

Same stereo pink noise run with the full Logic7 system & no manual EQ except for 32hz to 50hz & just an octave resolution.


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## lavesa

I need help. I thought I figured out the kaigoss method but only one under seat sub was running when I split the signal. What I've seen is to run no sub and a 2 way front with a 20 Hz subsonic and 150 Hz Hi/lo. But when I do that there is no sub-sonic option and the hi/lo only goes to 100 Hz when I select a 2 way front. So I selected 2 subs (8s) with a 20 Hz subsonic and 200 Hz hi/lo. 1 way front and it doesn't ask for xover so I thought it was good. Then I just assigned sub1 to one 8" under-seat and sub2 as the other. Then I used y splitter to channel 1-3 and 2-4 to on my sub Amo to send a signal to my 8" and 12". Hp on 8"s and lp on 12".

Does anyone know why I can't set the xover on a 2-way front higher than 100 Hz if I don't select a sub?

I ended up running normal setup with my 12" as sub and a 2 way front with the 8" as FL (Lo) and FR (lo) but they are barely getting any signal and the 12" is doing all the work.


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## lavesa

> Kaigoss69 :
> 1. Run set-up with 2-way front and no sub. Set the subsonic at 20Hz. Lo/Hi at 150Hz, 24dB/oct (just do it...). Crossovers on
> amp off.
> 2. Run calibration
> 3. Set the amp such that the input from ch 1&2 goes to all 4 channels
> 4. Enable high-pass filter on amp for underseat woofers. Start with 60Hz, 24dB/oct.
> 5. Enable low-pass filter on amp for subwoofer. Start with 60Hz, 12dB/oct


When I run the 2 way front after selecting no sub, I can't set a crossover past 100. Can anyone explain why that might be? If I select a sub and then a 2 way front, I'm able to select a hi/lo higher. Should I select the sub with a crossover of 20 but just not add it to the channel? That should send the lows to the under seat subs.


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## KillerBox

I haven’t tried that but, are you sure that you are not setting the Subsonic filter?


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## lavesa

KillerBox said:


> I haven’t tried that but, are you sure that you are not setting the Subsonic filter?


Thanks for the response KillerBox.

Yes, you are correct. It's just not labelled as sub-sonic which threw me off. It just says High Pass. Once you select 20 hz, you get the Hi/Lo pass. 

With that said, I tried the Kaigoss method in my BMW with the 8" under seat subs and a single 12" JL 12W3v3.4 and I barely got ANY bass. I had to increase the gains too much so I simply ran the calibration with a sub.


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## lavesa

Hi, just a note to followers of this thread. I have two MS8 units for sale as a backup. They have some light scratches but they don't appear to have been installed. 









JBL MS8 - Unit only for sale


Two units available. Units only, NO Microphone headphones, NO display, NO speaker input harness, NO speaker output harness, NO remote. They still have the plastic covering the black plexiglass. Neither look like they were ever installed and appear to be scratched from years of handling them...




www.diymobileaudio.com


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## lavesa

I wanted to update this for other BMW owners. The Kaigoss method resulted in worse bass for me and my setup. Based on a lot of trial and error, my conclusion was that I wasn't providing enough power. I doubled power to everything except rear speakers which I ended up running in series. 

I picked up an Alpine V9 in order to get the 500+ watt sub channel along with the 4x100 which I used to bridge the front Morel Components to 200 watts each. That allowed me to use all 4 channels of the F6 to bridge to the 8" subs to 300+ watts. I bridged the Morel Ovation center channel on two channels of the F4 to 200 watts. (I have an Alpine 4.100 for sale if anyone is interested - will probably post that to classifieds)

*Alpine PDX V9 (100 watts per channel, plus 500 watts for sub) - verified at 528w on the birth sheet for the sub*
Channels 1-2 – Bridged Left Channel - Morel Hybrid Ovation II 4 2-Way 4" Component Speakers - passive at 1800Hz - 200+ watts
Channels 3-4 – Bridged Right Channel - Morel Hybrid Ovation II 4 2-Way 4" Component Speakers - passive at 1800Hz - 200+ watts
Sub - 12” JL 12W3v3.4 - single in smaller sealed box

*Alpine PDX F6 (150 watts per channel)*
Channels 1-3 – Bridged Left Channel - 8” Morel MW265-4 subs - 300+ watts
Channels 3-4 – Bridged Right Channel - 8” Morel MW265-4 subs - 300+ watts

*Alpine PDX F4 (100 watts per channel) *
Channels 1-2 – Bridge Center Channel - Morel Integra Ovation 4" (2-way) - passive at 4000Hz 6dB/octave with tweeter output jumpers to +3db - 200+ watts
Channels 3-4 – Factory 4” with tweeter rear deck and rear door – running in series - Around 50 watts per speaker in series

Alpine PDX amps use Y adapters to bridge. I started with Stinger twisted pair y adapters but they don't have male to 2 male and I have very short runs. The RCA female to male couplers are horrible and I couldn't guarantee a good fit so I picked up 6 Fospower Dual shielded male to 2 male adapters. Was really careful to avoid them running next to any power to mitigate the noise they initially picked up. (I know there is a giant philosophical debate stating twisted pair cable running an unbalanced source is useless but I did get engine noise the first time I switched out the twisted pair)

*MS8 Input Channels* - Speaker out from factory amp (Per Andy, no need to add more than 1 full range signal for R and L). For the subs, however, they are supposed to go on Channel 7 & 8 per the documentation.

1 - Front right
2 - Front Left
7 - Under seat sub Left
8 - Under seat sub Right

*Calibration:*

Sub - 1 way - 20 Hz sub-sonic 24dB/oct, Lo/Hi 120 Hz 24dB/oct 
Front - 2 way - Lo/Hi 240 Hz 24dB/oct 
Center - 1 way - 240 Hz 24dB/oct 
Sides - 1 way (rear speakers) - 200 Hz 24dB/oct 

*MS8 Output Channels*
1 - FL (Hi)
2 - FL (Lo) - 8" sub
3 - FR (Hi)
4 - FR (Lo) - 8" sub
5 - Center
6 - SL
7 - SR
8 - sub

1. Set amp gains to “Nom” or about 2V for the V9 for the components, bumped sub gain to just under .5V (first notch past NOM)
2. Set amp gains to just under .5V on F6 for the 8" subs
3. Set amp gains to NOM on the F4 for Center channel and Rear speakers

Calibrated and it sounds AMAZING! All I play are flac rips of CDs and everything sounds awesome. From Ziggy Marley, Black Eyed Peas, Cake and Sublime to Ratt, AC/DC and STP to Metallica, Pantera, Sevendust and Tool. Metallica's Of Wolf and Man starts with a throat punch mid bass that sounds awesome! Sevendust Waffle - amazing. I have the Japan remasters of Van Halen's first 5 CD's and they also sound awesome, although I had to bump the bass system levels for those. 

I bought a 256gb thumb drive for the center console USB and the BMW reads flac beautifully. It's probably the reason I'm on my 4th BMW since 2006, lol.


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## Kocil

Dear mates. I wish everybody stays healthy.

I just played with the "favorites" menu in the JBL-ms 8.
I wonder, what is actually saved by each favorite ?
Is it just the Acoustic Calibration,
or also including the _Input Setup Output Setup_ ?

Thanks.


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## lavesa

The input setup will not change unless you run the setup again but you can run the calibration with the headphones multiple times without affecting the input setup. If you only do driver to test a setup, you can go back and do all seat positions when you are satisfied with the setup crossover points, etc.

The favorites saves everything under acoustic settings like levels, balance, eq, processing, stage position, etc. I use a favorite to change the sound stage to Front from driver to quickly change this setting when someone is in the car. I can avoid having to switch through all the positions to get to Front or back to Driver. I also use a favorite for when I'm playing older rock that needs more Bass in the EQ setup.

Having five favorites to me is the reason to choose a JBL over a Bit One or any other processor. I don't think they have multiple favorites and I know they didn't back in 2010 when I got mine.


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## n_boost

That looks really good!! Congrats!!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## Kocil

lavesa said:


> The input setup will not change unless you run the setup again but you can run the calibration with the headphones multiple times without affecting the input setup. If you only do driver to test a setup, you can go back and do all seat positions when you are satisfied with the setup crossover points, etc.


Thanks for the enligtenment.
That's explain a lot.
I was trying to compare several sets of cut-off/slope for sub/mid/tweeter.
So I run multiple input setups, and saved each of it to different favourite.
But when I switched the favourite, there was nothing noticeable different.

Any idea how can we achieve my goal ?


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## lavesa

I have a favorite with everything flat and I use the same song to test each setup. I've found for my setup the best EQ has everything flat with a dip around 4000 hz (-1.5 db) because the music I listen to (mostly hard rock) with my speakers tends to be a little harsh in that spot. I then use System Levels on Bass to adjust for different music. I increase for some of the old rock (Van Halen, Rush, Etc.) and then decrease on some of the newer music (No Doubt) that has too much bass. I haven't changed my setup in a couple of months now after tweaking it at least 30 times. Once I got the xover points I wanted, I tested with different volume on the MS8 for calibration. For me, it seamed to be best around -25 but I listen with it at 0. You just have to learn where your deck volume will start to clip the signal which can be at different levels with different music.

There is no way to save an input/setup because it literally builds the EQ based on the input configurations. Like I said, you can just do "Driver" position while testing and then do the rest of the seats once you have a setup you like. I can't tell you how many times I've said "Okay, one more setup...."


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## Tweaked

I have an MS-8 that I used in my last car which got totaled. My new car is an 07 Lexus IS350 with the Non-Mark Levinson system with Navigation. I added an Alpine ILX-W650 using the Beat-Sonic MVX-1401L kit which interfaces the Alpine head unit to the factory amplifier so I retain all the factory speakers and the factory amplifier. I am considering installing my MS-8, but the problem is that the MS-8 obviously only has 8 channels, and my Lexus has 3 ways in each door plus factory sub for 13 speakers. I can't run active because I simply don't have enough channels. I've considered replacing the door speakers with the Infinity Kappa Perfect 600's with the Perfect 300 mids and running passive, but then I have to figure out where to put all the gear since I'm also running a pair of Infinity 12's in trunk. If I put everything in the trunk, I'd pretty much have no room left. Here is a list of everything I pulled out of my other car but am not currently using. I'm curious what some of you would do in my shoes?

Alpine ILX-w650
JBL MS-8
JBL GTO-1001ez
JBL GTO-804ez
2x Infinity Kappa 120.9w subs
JBL 660GTI component set (Not a 3 way so probably selling)
JBL 670GTI component set NIB (Not a 3 way so probably selling)

and just ordered
1x Infinity Kappa Perfect 600 Component Set + Perfect 300 Mids (The crossover for these supports 3 way, but they are huge)


----------



## altec

Hey folks an off the beaten path topic here....my MS-8 spent some time in a shed outside and now the silver is looking bad. seems the aluminum is a tad oxidized. Is there a way to clean or repaint it to bring it back to its former glory?


----------



## zapps

altec said:


> Hey folks an off the beaten path topic here....my MS-8 spent some time in a shed outside and now the silver is looking bad. seems the aluminum is a tad oxidized. Is there a way to clean or repaint it to bring it back to its former glory?


Try Bar Keepers Friend and Scotch Brite pad. 

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk


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## jfrank81

Tweaked said:


> I have an MS-8 that I used in my last car which got totaled. My new car is an 07 Lexus IS350 with the Non-Mark Levinson system with Navigation. I added an Alpine ILX-W650 using the Beat-Sonic MVX-1401L kit which interfaces the Alpine head unit to the factory amplifier so I retain all the factory speakers and the factory amplifier. I am considering installing my MS-8, but the problem is that the MS-8 obviously only has 8 channels, and my Lexus has 3 ways in each door plus factory sub for 13 speakers. I can't run active because I simply don't have enough channels. I've considered replacing the door speakers with the Infinity Kappa Perfect 600's with the Perfect 300 mids and running passive, but then I have to figure out where to put all the gear since I'm also running a pair of Infinity 12's in trunk. If I put everything in the trunk, I'd pretty much have no room left. Here is a list of everything I pulled out of my other car but am not currently using. I'm curious what some of you would do in my shoes?
> 
> Alpine ILX-w650
> JBL MS-8
> JBL GTO-1001ez
> JBL GTO-804ez
> 2x Infinity Kappa 120.9w subs
> JBL 660GTI component set (Not a 3 way so probably selling)
> JBL 670GTI component set NIB (Not a 3 way so probably selling)
> 
> and just ordered
> 1x Infinity Kappa Perfect 600 Component Set + Perfect 300 Mids (The crossover for these supports 3 way, but they are huge)


I can’t tell you how it’ll turn out just yet nor is it your exact situation, but I’ve decided to stack a Dayton DSP after my MS-8 to run active tweets and mids with time alignment off of channels 1 and 2 on the MS-8. I’ll be running 3 way active front, rear fill off the MS-8 power and a sub. I have room to add a center if I was willing to cut my dash.


----------



## FordEscape

jfrank81 said:


> I can’t tell you how it’ll turn out just yet nor is it your exact situation, but I’ve decided to stack a Dayton DSP after my MS-8 to run active tweets and mids with time alignment off of channels 1 and 2 on the MS-8. I’ll be running 3 way active front, rear fill off the MS-8 power and a sub. I have room to add a center if I was willing to cut my dash.


I've done similar using MS-A1004 amps with thier internal XO and routing capabilities (this for a 3-way front with the midrange/tweets adjacent to each other in the A-pillars, midbass in the doors:

Configure MS-8 with 2-way front (uses 4 channels)
Front Lo drives the door midbass (through 2ch of an MS-A1004; the other 2 ch on that amp being used for rear fill) with discrete TA and level setting for each ch managed by the MS-8
Front Hi goes to another MS-A1004 which splits the 2 channels from the MS-8 to 4-channels out driving midrange and tweets active
MS-8 manages XO between midbass and midrange
MS-A1004 manages XO between midrange and tweeters
Manage relative levels of the midrange and tweeters on the MS-A1004, too (it has output level completely separate from input gain)
Yes, that means the midrange and tweeter on each side have the same TA imposed by MS-8, but the compromise is negligible given they are adjacent to each other
The net effect is a 3-way active front using only 4 MS-8 channels, leaving enough to also support rear-fill (2 ch), sub (1 ch), and front center (1 ch). Noting you can do the same 'trick' for the front center if you want a 2-way active center using only 1 MS-8 channel.
I call this 'MS-8 channel-stretching', it's worked well for me. It's one of the big reasons I love the MS-Axxxx amps as companions to the MS-8: the routing, XO frequency and slope control, and output level-setting they provide, along with replication of the MS-8 bass-shelf filter via WBC remote analog knob acting on both sub and midbass channels linked to multiple amps just makes them all _very_ happy companions, IMO.

Not sure how much of that can translate to @Tweaked 's Lexus situation, but perhaps some hints in that which may help?

Good luck, have fun!

PS: note as I type this that there's an MS-A1004 amp listed in the classifieds. I've absolutely no knowledge about the seller or that amp, but if it's in good condition that's a great companion for an MS-8 to do 'channel-stretching', IMO.


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## FordEscape

*QUESTION RE: MS-8 HANDLING OF L+R CENTER INPUT*

CONFIGURATION SCENARIO:

Full-range L & R outputs from OE HU routed to MS-8 (speaker level) inputs 1 and 2 respectively
Full-range L+R (not upmixed) output from OE HU _Center_ routed to MS-8 (speaker level) input 3
APPARENT RESULT:
When running the MS-8 setup disk for OE HU's the MS-8 detects that the L+R Center Input is redundant / not needed for its music processing purposes and then _IGNORES_ (disables) that input 3 completely. *CAN ANYONE CONFIRM THAT BEHAVIOR?*

Backstory / reason for question ....
My OE Honda audio system broadcasts the Navigation Guidance Voice only on its Center speaker output. The volume of the Center _music_ output volume can be set to 'zero' independent of the Center NAV Voice output volume. IOW, absent the MS-8 I can hear the NAV Voice even when I turn the Center speaker _music_ volume to zero. With the MS-8 I do not hear the NAV Voice output on any speaker. Thus my inference that the MS-8 setup, which is processed as a _music_ source, _completely ignores_ that redundant / not needed (in fact 'undesirable' as a _music_ input) Center input 3.

Just seeking confirmation of that.

(I already _know_ that if I do not run the MS-8 setup disk, as if for an aftermarket HU, MS-8 _completely ignores_ (disables) all inputs other than 1 & 2)

TIA


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## Mauian

In not sure about the default behavior of the MS-8 but as a potential fix you could get something like a JL fix and sum the center channel with the L and R before routing to the MS-8. Not ideal but would likely work. My bad if you’ve already thought of that...

Let us know how it goes! I’ll hopefully be doing an MS-8 build in the coming month or so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FordEscape

Mauian said:


> In not sure about the default behavior of the MS-8 but as a potential fix you could get something like a JL fix and sum the center channel with the L and R before routing to the MS-8. Not ideal but would likely work.


EDIT - Yes, routing the NAV Voice only, with OE center music volume set to zero, would likely work OK that way.


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## Mauian

FordEscape said:


> Much worse than "not ideal" .... that would _completely_ destroy the staging, the whole purpose and benefit of the DSP. Definitely not going there.
> 
> There are other workarounds using the MS-8 for its fantastic music processing; leaving the OE center speaker for only NAV Voice (OE center music volume set to zero), while installing another center for the MS-8 is just one example.


Ah, well that sounds much better 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FordEscape

Toying with the idea of an MS8 install in a vehicle that has an aftermarket HU (Jensen CMM710) with no support for CD and no support for WAV files via USB. It will playback FLAC files.

I've used the WAV file on USB in the past (works fine), my longstanding mantra has been to never use a compressed file format for the calibration 'disc / file', but now I'm forced to consider it ....

*Anyone have any experience ripping the MS8 calibration disc to a 'lossless' FLAC file and then using that on a USB flash drive for the calibration routine?* * How'd that work out for ya?*


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## zapps

FordEscape said:


> Toying with the idea of an MS8 install in a vehicle that has an aftermarket HU (Jensen CMM710) with no support for CD and no support for WAV files via USB. It will playback FLAC files.
> 
> I've used the WAV file on USB in the past (works fine), my longstanding mantra has been to never use a compressed file format for the calibration 'disc / file', but now I'm forced to consider it ....
> 
> *Anyone have any experience ripping the MS8 calibration disc to a 'lossless' FLAC file and then using that on a USB flash drive for the calibration routine?* * How'd that work out for ya?*


I got a copy of the WAV file from this thread and put it on my phone, then played it over USB / Android Auto. Seems to work just fine. 

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk


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## FordEscape

zapps said:


> I got a copy of the WAV file from this thread and put it on my phone, then played it over USB / Android Auto. Seems to work just fine.
> 
> Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk


Thanks for the tip but the CMM710 doesn't support Android Auto / Apple CarPlay. I just emailed the WAV file to my iPhone and the attachment plays on the phone, but not sure what that gets me?

Being a bit of a luddite I've never used my phone as a music source in a car - I'm a USB flash drive music library kinda guy. It looks like the CMM710 can access music on the phone via Bluetooth (I find a "BT Music" button on the source menu), but would that be 'processed / lossy-compressed' via BT?

Thanks for taking the time to try to help


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## billw

You shouldn't need the calibration disc on an aftermarket head unit, as the output should already be flat. The calibration disc is used to undo any EQ from the factory head unit.


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## KillerBox

Wouldn’t an aftermarket headunit have a flat signal? 

If so, why do you even need to calibrate with the CD?


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## FordEscape

Doh, of course! (embarrassed, head-bang)

This will be my first ever MS8 project *not* on an OE HU, *Thanks* for the wake-up.


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## 156546

FordEscape said:


> Toying with the idea of an MS8 install in a vehicle that has an aftermarket HU (Jensen CMM710) with no support for CD and no support for WAV files via USB. It will playback FLAC files.
> 
> I've used the WAV file on USB in the past (works fine), my longstanding mantra has been to never use a compressed file format for the calibration 'disc / file', but now I'm forced to consider it ....
> 
> *Anyone have any experience ripping the MS8 calibration disc to a 'lossless' FLAC file and then using that on a USB flash drive for the calibration routine?* * How'd that work out for ya?*


You don't need to run the calibration with an aftermarket radio that has a flat 2-channel signal.


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## joikd

I bought one of these brand new off Amazon back in 2015 for a project that I never ended up doing. Fast forward to today. I am getting divorced and found the unopened MS-8 in an unopened Amazon box. Any idea what it's worth and the best place to sell it?


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## trunks9_us

joikd said:


> I bought one of these brand new off Amazon back in 2015 for a project that I never ended up doing. Fast forward to today. I am getting divorced and found the unopened MS-8 in an unopened Amazon box. Any idea what it's worth and the best place to sell it?


$250 - $400 i rarely see them for for $500 but from what I’ve seen based off condition as well as if it is wrapped it’s oem still it would probably be worth more then I would think. If someone was desperate for cash I’ve seen them go for $150 but that’s unreasonable unless you need cash ASAP.
I would love to have one one day but I have no use for it lol.

the best thing about these is they have custom firmware option online people have mad I’ve found online but I don’t know much about the ms8 because I never had one.


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## Weigel21

Never heard about the custom firmware before. Any idea what all it changes?


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## trunks9_us

Weigel21 said:


> Never heard about the custom firmware before. Any idea what all it changes?


No idea look it up on Google


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## 156546

LOL. I wouldn't pay any attention to anyone claiming to have developed some custom firmware for this device. The original firmware was supplied to the factory as an encrypted binary file. The only update ever released was just display firmware that changed a remote control button function and made one very small change to the un-EQ algorithm IIRC.


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## trunks9_us

GotFrogs said:


> LOL. I wouldn't pay any attention to anyone claiming to have developed some custom firmware for this device. The original firmware was supplied to the factory as an encrypted binary file. The only update ever released was just display firmware that changed a remote control button function and made one very small change to the un-EQ algorithm IIRC.


I understand what you are saying but there is a whole forum dedicated to custom firmware abs what you can do with it. It’s been out for years that’s all I know I’ve been to the site before but I dont remember the url


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## 156546

trunks9_us said:


> I understand what you are saying but there is a whole forum dedicated to custom firmware abs what you can do with it. It’s been out for years that’s all I know I’ve been to the site before but I dont remember the url


I couldn't find it with a google search. Matt Roberts made some hardware mods--upgraded op amps and stuff. That's all I could find. 

I just can't imagine anyone being able to update the actual operation of this thing by extracting the code from the DSP and the micro that runs the display and modifying it. That would be HUGE job. There are hundreds of thousands of lines of code in this thing. 

But I suppose there's always a chance.

But to what end?


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## 156546

Even the display code would be a huge PITA. It looks like a simple 5 line character display, but it isn't. Literally every possible screen is a pixel map. This exercise would be like trying to make a robotic horse using a horse.


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## NW JLUR

trunks9_us said:


> $250 - $400 i rarely see them for for $500 but from what I’ve seen based off condition as well as if it is wrapped it’s oem still it would probably be worth more then I would think. If someone was desperate for cash I’ve seen them go for $150 but that’s unreasonable unless you need cash ASAP.
> I would love to have one one day but I have no use for it lol.
> 
> the best thing about these is they have custom firmware option online people have mad I’ve found online but I don’t know much about the ms8 because I never had one.


I saw a local ad for an MS8 for $50. Unfortunately it’s just the MS8 with no display or wires. I wish parts were available because I would have picked it up.


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## KillerBox

The way it has been is the display, headphones and wires are harder (and mostly more expensive) to find then the actual MS8 unit is.


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## trunks9_us

GotFrogs said:


> I couldn't find it with a google search. Matt Roberts made some hardware mods--upgraded op amps and stuff. That's all I could find.
> 
> I just can't imagine anyone being able to update the actual operation of this thing by extracting the code from the DSP and the micro that runs the display and modifying it. That would be HUGE job. There are hundreds of thousands of lines of code in this thing.
> 
> But I suppose there's always a chance.
> 
> But to what end?


this isn’t the website I was talking about but this thread does talk A lot about iton the updates in general. The problem is when I was researching all of this for a totally different reason was between your mic and the auto tune and something else with a rta. I honestly don’t remember. The problem is at the time I found it was blm biggest momentabs for some reason my chrome history cant find it.








Reverse Engineering MS-8 Screen & Remote


I'm sure a lot of you ( same as me ) got sick of the screen and remote of the ms-8 from time to time a request to be able to control the MS-8 via PC/Android/Iphone is brought up but nothing happened since ( Reference ) I got an idea after investigating the service manual but my coding skills...




www.diymobileaudio.com





I’ll look more for it later when I’m not tired I don’t think I bookmarked it or sent it to myself because I honestly thought it was as easy as a Google search


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## 156546

trunks9_us said:


> this isn’t the website I was talking about but this thread does talk A lot about iton the updates in general. The problem is when I was researching all of this for a totally different reason was between your mic and the auto tune and something else with a rta. I honestly don’t remember. The problem is at the time I found it was blm biggest momentabs for some reason my chrome history cant find it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reverse Engineering MS-8 Screen & Remote
> 
> 
> I'm sure a lot of you ( same as me ) got sick of the screen and remote of the ms-8 from time to time a request to be able to control the MS-8 via PC/Android/Iphone is brought up but nothing happened since ( Reference ) I got an idea after investigating the service manual but my coding skills...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.diymobileaudio.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I’ll look more for it later when I’m not tired I don’t think I bookmarked it or sent it to myself because I honestly thought it was as easy as a Google search


I forgot about that thread. I'm Andy, BTW. I didn't receive any support for that project from 10 years ago. Anyway. Good luck. That product isn't supported by the company anymore and IIRC, the display reached EOL at the display factory.


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## mzmtg




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## SkizeR

I have one for sale if anyone wants. Comes with everything minus the OEM box. $300. PM me.


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## e39 touring

SkizeR said:


> I have one for sale if anyone wants. Comes with everything minus the OEM box. $300. PM me.


Was $400 yesterday. I’ll buy next week for $150?
LOL
Thread jacker 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mzmtg

e39 touring said:


> Was $400 yesterday. I’ll buy next week for $150?
> LOL
> Thread jacker
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nope, me first, my wife's car needs one. I have 1.5 MS8s already. One that works and one with a royally fooked display connector that otherwise works.


----------



## SkizeR

e39 touring said:


> Was $400 yesterday. I’ll buy next week for $150?
> LOL
> Thread jacker
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That 400 was a typo. Oops


----------



## SkizeR

mzmtg said:


> Nope, me first, my wife's car needs one. I have 1.5 MS8s already. One that works and one with a royally fooked display connector that otherwise works.


I also have another MS8 with no other accessories. PM me if you'd like it


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## e39 touring

SkizeR said:


> I also have another MS8 with no other accessories. PM me if you'd like it


Price?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## e39 touring

SkizeR said:


> I have one for sale if anyone wants. Comes with everything minus the OEM box. $300. PM me.


Also, curious what YOUR thoughts on Ms8 are…..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## trunks9_us

Jesus Nick I might buy another one now


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## trunks9_us

e39 touring said:


> Also, curious what YOUR thoughts on Ms8 are…..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Be sure to post in the other thread what his views on the ms8 are


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## SkizeR

I dont have views on it. Never got to use it in my car. No time these days for me


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## SkizeR

e39 touring said:


> Price?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


$150


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## e39 touring

trunks9_us said:


> Jesus Nick I might buy another one now


That’s how I ended up with 5 of these 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## trunks9_us

e39 touring said:


> That’s how I ended up with 5 of these
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


just buy it and give it to me then I’ll hold onto it for you


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## e39 touring

trunks9_us said:


> just buy it and give it to me then I’ll hold onto it for you


I sold one set, have one bare unit that has issues and I’m left with three working complete kits -all actively in use….and some extra spare bits. Missing cord? No problem!

The one in my daily is starting to express cold weather startup issues. I’ve noticed disconnecting the screen gets it to boot up?!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## billqs

I purchased an MS-8 back in 2019 and got it to work with a lot of help from people on this forum. I hooked it up via the speaker level inputs off the factory amp. The output from the MS-8 feeds 2 4 channel class D amps and a Rockford Fosgate P-300 powered subwoofer. It has worked well until I disconnected the battery and went through cleaning up the wiring so it would be neater as I look at some upgrades.

When I hooked back up the battery, I noticed the sound seemed to come almost totally from the left side. No problem, I thought, I'm sure I have something connected incorrectly. I went through all the wiring and then switched outputs to the amp. I still had one loud channel and the other main channels were there but very quiet. I verified all hook up wires to the MS-8 and all input wires from the factory amp. All were fully connected and correct.

I tried turning off Logic 7. Then I got the front signal out of left, right and center. I hit reset on the microprocesor but nothing changed. I also hit reset on the menu with no change. Is my next step a return to factory defaults?


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## KillerBox

Billqs, I had similar problem about 2 years ago but, I didn’t research a solution. I just did a total factory reset through the menu with the remote control. And that fixed my problem.


----------



## SloVic

Anyone know the requirements to run rear fill? 

Set my 3 way front stage as 2 way plus subs to expirament with rear fill but it doesn't give me any options for the tears.


----------



## billqs

KillerBox said:


> Billqs, I had similar problem about 2 years ago but, I didn’t research a solution. I just did a total factory reset through the menu with the remote control. And that fixed my problem.


I worked on the problem more tonight but haven't done the factory reset yet. I am having another issue with my factory amp putting out less than 15 volts which makes it hard to start over on the ms-8 from scratch as it is hard to get the factory HU output high enough for the MS-8 to do its initial calibration. I will do the factory reset tomorrow and report back.


----------



## KillerBox

SloVic use the sides setting for your rear speakers. The only time you use the “rear” setting is in a 7.1 system.

P.S. I do have a 7.2 system but, I am only using the MS8 in a 5.1 mode & then expand from there through the use of external crossovers.


----------



## SloVic

KillerBox said:


> SloVic use the sides setting for your rear speakers. The only time you use the “rear” setting is in a 7.1 system.
> 
> P.S. I do have a 7.2 system but, I am only using the MS8 in a 5.1 mode & then expand from there through the use of external crossovers.


Thanks. Will they function as differential rear fill with Logic 7 on?


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## KillerBox

Yes, they do an excellent job with rear fill (on the side setting) with the Logic7 on.


----------



## trunks9_us

I’m about to try it out to run a rta on it the. Compare to my tuning rta and see what I like better eventually


----------



## KillerBox

I don’t know how the MS8 measures but, I have tried to use the graphic EQ, stereo pink noise & RTA to achieve the Harmon curve. And every time it has sounded worse.

So I re-ran the acoustic set up probably over 25 times over the past 3 years & got it to look as close as possible to the Harmon curve & then I only had to manually cut bands @ 32hz & 40hz.

If you saw my RTA & the MS8 Logic7 activated, it looks like I am weak between 100hz to 200hz but, it doesn’t sound weak to me. At 200hz my center channel starts, so I think with stereo pink noise & all 3 sets of front speakers the output is louder than you would normally hear in regular music. So I think that is why my RTA doesn’t look like the classic curves.


----------



## billqs

billqs said:


> I worked on the problem more tonight but haven't done the factory reset yet. I am having another issue with my factory amp putting out less than 15 volts which makes it hard to start over on the ms-8 from scratch as it is hard to get the factory HU output high enough for the MS-8 to do its initial calibration. I will do the factory reset tomorrow and report back.


I did the factory reset at lunch. I ran through the whole set up. In the diagnostic each channel was the same value. However, once it started using sound, it had the same Left heavy effect it had before.  Really not sure what's causing it. I can get a loaner MS-8. I may plug it up and see if the same problem presents. That way I will know if it's the MS-8 or some other heartache.


----------



## mzmtg

KillerBox said:


> I don’t know how the MS8 measures but, I have tried to use the graphic EQ, stereo pink noise & RTA to achieve the Harmon curve. And every time it has sounded worse.
> 
> So I re-ran the acoustic set up probably over 25 times over the past 3 years & got it to look as close as possible to the Harmon curve & then I only had to manually cut bands @ 32hz & 40hz.
> 
> If you saw my RTA & the MS8 Logic7 activated, it looks like I am weak between 100hz to 200hz but, it doesn’t sound weak to me. At 200hz my center channel starts, so I think with stereo pink noise & all 3 sets of front speakers the output is louder than you would normally hear in regular music. So I think that is why my RTA doesn’t look like the classic curves.


If it measures well but doesn't sound good....then it's time to put the tools away and use your ears to get it dialed in.


----------



## mzmtg

SloVic said:


> Thanks. Will they function as differential rear fill with Logic 7 on?


No. Logic7 is much more sophisticated. It steers signals to the rear based on their phase relative to the rest of the signal.


----------



## instalher

hey guys i have a simple couple of question for you. I have a bmw f23 convertible.. iam using all stock harman kardon speakers, and i have made a center channel with a fountex fr89 and a oem bmw tweeter with the oem cap.. No subs.... 
i bought a technic pnp 7 ch hifi 676, to plug into my oem wiring... Now i removed the oem amp, plugged in the harness, wired up the oem speakers to the ms-8, I ran a wire from the ms-8 to each door for the tweeters. So the ms-8 runs the tweetes ch 1 and ch 2, runs the 4 inch door speakers ch 3 and ch 4, runs the center channel, ch 5, runs the underseat 8s ch 6 and ch 7, So that the system... Oh the car has the hifi system, i bought the oem front tweeters and mounts to replace the blank pods on the door. Doors have 2 layers of dynamat and two layers of extreme liner so they are sealed up tight like mary poppins. now here are my question
1.) Due i use the front left and right speaker inputs on the ms-8 from the technic harness or use the rca outputs off the technic harness for front left and right?
2.) i have channel 8 left open on the ms-8 should i parallel the rear speakers to this channel and set up the ms-8s channel 8 as sides or dont bother to even hook them up? Iam and sq guy.
3) since its a convertible due i due the calibration top up or top down.. i use it top down 90% of the time.


----------



## e39 touring

instalher said:


> hey guys i have a simple couple of question for you. I have a bmw f23 convertible.. iam using all stock harman kardon speakers, and i have made a center channel with a fountex fr89 and a oem bmw tweeter with the oem cap.. No subs....
> i bought a technic pnp 7 ch hifi 676, to plug into my oem wiring... Now i removed the oem amp, plugged in the harness, wired up the oem speakers to the ms-8, I ran a wire from the ms-8 to each door for the tweeters. So the ms-8 runs the tweetes ch 1 and ch 2, runs the 4 inch door speakers ch 3 and ch 4, runs the center channel, ch 5, runs the underseat 8s ch 6 and ch 7, So that the system... Oh the car has the hifi system, i bought the oem front tweeters and mounts to replace the blank pods on the door. Doors have 2 layers of dynamat and two layers of extreme liner so they are sealed up tight like mary poppins. now here are my question
> 1.) Due i use the front left and right speaker inputs on the ms-8 from the technic harness or use the rca outputs off the technic harness for front left and right?
> 2.) i have channel 8 left open on the ms-8 should i parallel the rear speakers to this channel and set up the ms-8s channel 8 as sides or dont bother to even hook them up? Iam and sq guy.
> 3) since its a convertible due i due the calibration top up or top down.. i use it top down 90% of the time.


Rears need two channels min
You could always use ch8 for active two way center. Or the Underseat bass on one channel if crossed low enough?
RE the convertible- I have Ms8 in my e30! 3way front plus two 8s.
I take advantage of the Ms8 rear seat calibration positions for the “top up windows up” drivers seat tune. It doesn’t matter what the preset is, it only matters where you sit. 
For the input, I’m not familiar with that adapter but I’d go with low level initially 


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## instalher

like the center channel option.. underseat 8s each have a channel already dedicated to them, I will try some different tunes like you suggested with the rear seat option and i will 69 the rear fill option then on channel 8....


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## 156546

e39 touring said:


> I sold one set, have one bare unit that has issues and I’m left with three working complete kits -all actively in use….and some extra spare bits. Missing cord? No problem!
> 
> The one in my daily is starting to express cold weather startup issues. I’ve noticed disconnecting the screen gets it to boot up?!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


LCDs are notoriously slow when the temperature is really low.


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## e39 touring

GotFrogs said:


> LCDs are notoriously slow when the temperature is really low.


I mean the processor won’t even boot up unless I unhook the display. I’ll make a switch, already have a custom cord in the mix…..
Thanks, Andy! 


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## 156546

e39 touring said:


> I mean the processor won’t even boot up unless I unhook the display. I’ll make a switch, already have a custom cord in the mix…..
> Thanks, Andy!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Right. Because when it boots, it checks for a display and when the display doesn't boot because it's super cold, it doesn't respond.


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## e39 touring

GotFrogs said:


> Right. Because when it boots, it checks for a display and when the display doesn't boot because it's super cold, it doesn't respond.


Understood.
On problem days, it continuously tries to turn on my amps. On and off. On and off. 
Until I unhook the display and then it starts. I can IMMEDIATELY hook the display up and the display comes on every time. Doesn’t seem to need a warm up. 
I do have an extra display I can try out.
Thanks for all you do in this community!


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## StarBandit

KillerBox said:


> I know there was a smaller version somewhere but, I made a copy from my CD.
> 
> JBL MS-8 Set Up File.wav
> 
> JBL MS-8 Set Up File.wav


Thanks for posting, these newer vehicles don't have cd players anymore. Installing a MS-8 in my new Ram 1500 when the mail drops it off Monday. Also running a JL HD900/5, JL Stealthbox subs, and JBL components and 6932's. Staging and depth sucks now without the MS-8 as I'm spoiled without one and the Logic7. I left my old one in the Ram trade-in (should have kept it!!!). Pic is my Mustang setup.


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## KillerBox

StarBandit said:


> Thanks for posting, these newer vehicles don't have cd players anymore. Installing a MS-8 in my new Ram 1500 when the mail drops it off Monday. Also running a JL HD900/5, JL Stealthbox subs, and JBL components and 6932's. Staging and depth sucks now without the MS-8 as I'm spoiled without one and the Logic7. I left my old one in the Ram trade-in (should have kept it!!!). Pic is my Mustang setup.
> View attachment 321369


You are welcome and I love seeing those JBL amps!


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## StarBandit

KillerBox said:


> You are welcome and I love seeing those JBL amps!


I used the 5001 amp to power two 12" RE subs I got from a friend for $100. He never used them so I jumped on the deal. The 5004 amp I used for cheaper Pioneer 4-way 6x9's in the doors and rear side panels. Worked great in the convertible. Now to get this new system in my 21 Ram together and tuned. I tried a Kicker Front Row DSP but it had that annoying turn off pop and it drove me crazy after only a day or so. I finally found another MS-8 and hope all goes well with no pop. Pic below is the JL amp and stealthbox with two 10's.


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## MetricMuscle

Greetings! Gotta quick question about the rear speakers in my INFINITI FX. The 6" midbass woofer is on the lower front corner of the rear door and the mid/tweeter is up nice and high on the side of the hatch/cargo area. They are about 45" apart, will this create any issues? They will be "sides" and I'll use 2 channels out of MS-8 into an MS-A1004, actively crossed at 100Hz and 1Khz.


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## e39 touring

MetricMuscle said:


> Greetings! Gotta quick question about the rear speakers in my INFINITI FX. The 6" midbass woofer is on the lower front corner of the rear door and the mid/tweeter is up nice and high on the side of the hatch/cargo area. They are about 45" apart, will this create any issues? They will be "sides" and I'll use 2 channels out of MS-8 into an MS-A1004, actively crossed at 100Hz and 1Khz.


Doubtful, should work great! I just added rear fill on passive with tweeters a couple feet from the mid woofers and they’re pointing toward windshield like yours. Works great!


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## mzmtg

MetricMuscle said:


> Greetings! Gotta quick question about the rear speakers in my INFINITI FX. The 6" midbass woofer is on the lower front corner of the rear door and the mid/tweeter is up nice and high on the side of the hatch/cargo area. They are about 45" apart, will this create any issues? They will be "sides" and I'll use 2 channels out of MS-8 into an MS-A1004, actively crossed at 100Hz and 1Khz.


Give it a shot and see how it sounds...


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